Good morning, John. Recently, I got extremely lucky and was invited for a behind-the-scenes tour of the Denver Zoo. As it turns out, the nightkeeper of the zoo, and yes, that's a real thing, is a huge nerdfighter.  Basically, we're everywhere, including at the zoo, at night. And I learned so much on this tour that I would now like to tell you the top 17 coolest things that I learned on my behind-the-scenes tour of the Denver Zoo in no particular order. John, elephants can get tuberculosis, the same kind that people can get. So people can give it to elephants and elephants can give it to people. Sumatra, which I don't think very much about, is the sixth largest island in the world and has its own elephant and tiger and orangutan that exist there and nowhere else. This fish, and I took this video, got a CT scan because it was listing to the side and no one was sure why. Turns out it had gas, like intestinal gas. Now whenever it starts to go sideways, they feed it some peas and that fixes it. Penguins love to chase flies. Some rhinos are from areas of the world with very little iron. So rhinos that live a long time in other places that don't have very little iron will eat like the grass and other stuff that grows in their enclosures and that will result in like the opposite of anemia. They have to keep this big, beautiful man on a low iron diet, but sometimes his iron levels will get too high and when that happens, they have to take the iron out of him literally by just removing a bunch of his blood. Oh, it's just dirt. It's a big no, it's half of a minute. There are freshwater stingrays? Duh!  And then the zoo just like gives them their antivenom for free. Like if there's like rules where you can't sell it, so they have to give it away and then buy more for themselves. That's not one of the reasons why I thought it would be good to have zoos, but there it is. Adult Lake Titicaca frogs do not breathe. They have little lungs inside of them that are atrophied and never used. They breathe 100% through their skin. They look like that. I mean, they're kind of cute, but also kind of not.  It doesn't work. The Denver Zoo had a king cobra that got cancer.  They biopsied it, confirmed it was cancer, did surgery to remove the cancerous area and then gave adjuvant chemotherapy. Actually, a chemotherapy drug that humans also get except humans don't usually have it put inside of a rat before they take it. Wild sheep and goats often live in areas without minerals in the soil and so they will congregate in parking lots to find the salt transported either on cars or left behind when people pee because as we once learned, they crave that mineral. I have been told that flamingos are pink because they eat pink shrimp, but that's kind of wrong. These are two different species of flamingos that are fed the exact same diet and one is way more pink than another and juveniles are basically not pink at all. They are not pink because they eat shrimp. They can be pink because they eat shrimp. They could just poop out the pink compounds. They're pink because it's evolutionarily advantageous to be pink. Froswalski's horse is not pronounced like that. It's pronounced Shavalski's horse. The Shavalski's horse is the last surviving species of non-domesticated horse. It very nearly went extinct but was brought back through captive breeding programs and now they are once again roaming Mongolia. Also as part of that effort, a Shavalski's horse embryo was implanted in a domesticated horse and was born and is alive and is named Kurt. It is in San Diego, which that sounds great. This is actually raising hopes that we might one day be able to bring back species that are extinct but have close living relatives like black rhinos. Male elephants have a hormonal cycle and that leads to something called must and when they are in must, they're super angry and irritable in part because glands swell up on the sides of their head until the stinky oils start oozing through their thick skin which we think probably hurts quite badly. Every year this boy vulture who was raised in captivity builds a giant beautiful nest. And then this female vulture who was rescued from the wild with a broken wing very deliberately lays her egg in a tiny pile of sticks a few feet away. I didn't learn anything new about giraffes because mostly because I like know a lot about giraffes but I did get to touch one and feed it and be really close to it and that was amazing. Thank you so much to everybody at the Denver Zoo who took a little bit of time to talk with me. People who are working all across the world doing conservation efforts and trying to make life easier for animals and especially to Desa and Erica for showing us around. John, I'll see you on Tuesday. Also the first issue of our new newsletter we're here went out today. I hope people like it. There's lots of opportunities to email us through the newsletter, share stuff with us, be collaborative. We do not want this to be like a one-way newsletter. This is gonna be a every directional newsletter. And among the many things we talk about in that newsletter is John your new video on tuberculosis. It's on the Crash Course channel an entirely new Crash Course format where we give somebody a chance to give a lecture. John, you're just the guinea pig. I'm looking forward to seeing who comes next. It won't be me. Though I do want to do one. Tacking this out of the end because we just sent out the newsletter. So if you want to check your email for it, if you don't see it, you can check your spam folder or just search for Hank and John or we're in your inbox. I think it's the title of the email and then you can reply to that if you want to. And we will get that email if you reply to it. Because if you reply to it, your spam filter will be kinder to it in the future. Okay, bye.


Imagine what it could be like if you could literally cast a spell that allows you to understand and speak to all the animals on our planet. This would truly be something that only a god could do, right? Then imagine you yourself could possess the power of the gods. What if there is such a book on this earth that literally allows the user to obtain the means to decipher the ancient secrets and master the earth, the sea, the air, and the celestial bodies? In ancient Egypt, pre-dynastic, there was a god that existed. His gift to humankind was in the form of a sacred book that is now the most mysterious book ever mentioned in history, a book that had all the answers to every question in the universe, the key to understanding higher knowledge. According to historical records, the book of Thoth was a collection of ancient Egyptian texts which were written by Thoth himself. They include numerous texts that were claimed to exist by ancient authors and a magical book that appears in Egyptian works of fiction. There is little doubt that it actually existed because it appears in a wide range of diverse papyrus that had been found spread across the region. Wait, do you hear this? The book of Thoth is cited for the first time in the Tourist Papyrus. It describes a failed attempt to kill a pharaoh using a series of spells taken from the book. The book was hidden because of the overwhelming power it contains, probably to stop it falling into the wrong hands or someone who would seek to conquer. But there is an ancient text which describes where it would be found it reads as follows. Incredibly, there were many attempts to recover the book. Dracopta was the one who succeeded and he paid a terrible price. The gods killed all his family and tormented the young prince until he committed suicide. The book was entombed along with the prince. A final punishment from the gods enslaved the princess ghost to protect the book until the end of time. But as time slipped by, the allure of the book was far too tempting and more attempts were made to steal the book. The book was once again seized and again the gods were angered but the ghost of Prince Nefrocopta was still set to task. After more torment, the person in possession of the book returned the book to the tomb and the tomb was again sealed for all time. This reflects the fact that the knowledge of the gods is not meant for ordinary human beings. It was believed that he who read the contents of the book would obtain the means to decipher and master secrets related to the earth, the sea, the air and the celestial bodies. It also conferred the faculty of assimilating the language of animals, giving life back to the dead and acting on distant and nearby minds. Incredibly, researchers have made a connection between the Hall of Records and the Book of Thoth being beneath the Sphinx. With the entrance to a staircase being on the head of the Sphinx, this is further supported by the fact that there are now two known chambers under the Sphinx. It is amazing to think there could still exist something here that could have been placed here over 12,000 years ago. Something so important they couldn't simply destroy it, but the people at the time were forbidden from possessing this knowledge. Does this mean it was preserved for the future of humanity? Who knows? What do you guys think of the Book of Thoth? Comments below and thank you for watching.


Hi, I am Luzho. I have been in love with photography since last night. I created it. You will understand one thing if you come here. One of the top colleges in India is Creative Head. I didn't know anything about photography. The first major option in the internet was Creative Head. Even when I reached here, I was sure that I would be there. It is a very happy thing. Everyone who wants to study photography should come here. What I have to say here is that I am in the studio floor. I believe that the studio floor is the same as before. I am a photographer. I have a lot of interest in wedding photography. I don't know how much I like photography. But I like photography a lot now. My inspiration is to see the pictures on the internet and on Facebook. I try to see the new frames that I have not tried to copy. When I take a camera in my hand, I don't know what to do. But I am a photographer now. I don't know what to think or what to do. I want to learn more about photography. I have a lot of help from my family and friends. I am very grateful to them.


نستعينه هو نؤمنه بني ونتوكل عليه ونعوذ بالله من شرور أنفسنا ومن سيات عمالنا ما ينهي الله ثلاثة لنا وما يبدي الثلاثة لنا ونشدوا الله إلهي الله وحنه لا شريك لنا ونشدوا أن محمد العبد هو رسوله أرصله بالهدى ودين الحق يغيره على الدين كله ولو كاله المشركود يا أيها الذين آمروا اتقوا الله حقا تقاته ولا تلقوا لا تموتوا إلا وانتوا مسلمون يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذين خلقتوا من الناس يواقلا وخلقوا منها زوجها وبث منهم رجانا كثيرا ونساءة واتقوا الله الذي تساءلوا منه والرحام إن الله كان عليكم رقيبة يا أيها الذين آمن اتقوا الله وقولوا قونا من السديدة يصلف لكم عمالكم ويفرنكم ذروبكم ومن يطعي الله ورسولكم فقال فاز فاز العظيمة أما بعض الله سبحانه وتعالى رفيله في القرآن one of the greatest surahs one of the greatest revelations that's ever been revealed and he says about it ونقا دقا تينك سب عمينا المثاني وان قرآن العظيم we have given you the seven of repeated verses and the Quran and these seven of repeated verses are the Surah Fatiha this Surah is the fifth Surah to be revealed in the first Surah to complete in Revelation we know that the Surahs were revealed part little by little but this is the first one to be finished completely in Revelation and so before we begin to speak about the Surah we have to seek refuge from Shaytan the one who wants us to not appreciate the Quran and the one who leads us away from the Quran and who says we seek refuge from Satan the accursed the one who put his rationale over the rationale of Allah and the one who thought that his decision was the decision that was the better decision and decision that belonged that was higher than Allah's and then we start and the first ayah in the name of Allah the most merciful the most beneficent and so Allah starts with his own name one of the highest name was known as Bafun Jalalah and he starts with that name and he describes himself and he says the most merciful the most beneficent in whatever mercy whatever benefit we see is a manifestation of the mercy the benefit that Allah gives us and we know that there is no benefit and no mercy except through Allah and then we start the first ayah the next ayah we know all praise is due to Allah the Lord of all creation the Lord of the worlds and so every praise that we give is only due to Allah when we praise someone else in reality we are praising Allah because Allah is the one that created the situation that we are praising and so whether the thing is that our souls are sometimes the one that don't praise Allah but the sun the moon the stars the trees that are green the animals the insects and everything in between all of these things praise Allah whether you like it or not all of these things praise Allah and we need to recognize that we are the only ones that go against the will of Allah sometimes and not against the will of Allah we go against the orders of Allah because nothing can go against the will of Allah and so Allah tells us he describes himself as the Lord of all the worlds and so then he says the next ayah again a repetition أروح من يروحين the most merciful the most beneficent again and this is a constant reminder that Allah is always going to have mercy for us and always going to have benefit for us and actually both of these words both mean mercy but أروح من is the merciful who gives mercy to the disobedient to the non-believers and to those who are unappreciative of Allah and the ones who are appreciative of Allah the ones who are obedient and the ones who believe so this mercy applies to everyone but أروحين is specific أروحين is the mercy that we receive the Muslims receive on the Day of Judgement through the Shafa'a the Prophet ﷺ and may Allah make us of those who get the Shafa'a and so this is a specific mercy that we're giving and then you need to remember that whether you want to appreciate, obey, or disobey whatever you want to do that Allah is there's going to be a day when you're going to have to present yourself to Allah and he says ماءني ماءني master the owner of the Day of Judgement that whether you believe there not on that day you're going to have to present your deets to Allah and he's going to show you what you did and what you did wrong and what you did right and what you deserve and he says أقرأ كتابة كنسوز الإسراء read your book the book of your deets كفا بناسك اليوم عليك حسيبا that what you've done your book is enough to show you what you deserve that this is enough to show you what you deserve so that if we want to appreciate that Allah is the Lord of the Worlds and that he's the most the merciful the most beneficent then we're going to have to show our face with whatever we came with and then Allah will say look at your deets you know what you know what you deserve and then we make a transition from speaking about Allah to speaking to Allah in the Quran and the reason this is is because we are by this point in the prayer we should have turned our hearts towards Allah and realized that we're speaking to Allah and this is our prayer is a communication with Allah and let's appreciate that fact so we say يَا كَنَ عُبُولُ وَيْيَا كَنَ أَسْتَعِينَ only you do we worship and only you do we ask help from and Allah is the only one who deserves worship because he is the رب العالمين so he says in the first ayah he's the رب العالمين and then in the fourth ayah he says that he is the one that we say that he's the one we worship and the only one we ask for help from because he's the only one deserving of that and we don't worship the idols of money and the idols of business and the idols of ourselves the idols that we create for ourselves we worship only Allah and أبو حرير عضي الله وعن he narrates حديث قدسي which is a hadith where Allah speaks with the Prophet ﷺ paraphrases and so these aren't part of the Qur'an and the Prophet ﷺ says that Allah said قسمتوا صلاة بيني و بينا عبد in your slain فلسفها مين وانسفها العبد that I have divided the prayer as in I have divided the Fatiha that our prayer is not complete I have divided the Fatiha into two halves the first half is for me but the second half is for my servant and so we realize in the first ayah Allah describes himself but then he moves to our and he says إيه كنعبو and it ends there إيه كنعبو that's for Allah the worship we give to Allah even though it does not benefit one bit and it only benefits us if we leave it there's a benefit of Allah if we do it there's a benefit of Allah only benefits us but then he says وإيه كنستعين and in that portion we realize that we've moved to asking for ourselves and we're asking for ourselves because he is the رب العالمين and no one else can give what he gives not even ayodah worship is due to anyone else and then we ask by the next ayah we ask إيه دينوصي وطل مستقين قايدوصي the straight path the path of our prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم who guided us and the path some of the I'm not saying that this path is that the path of the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم the straight path is the path is the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and we ask because Allah is الرحمن الرحيم we notice that there's a correlation Allah is الرحمن الرحيم so you'll guide us for the straight path all we have to do is ask and all we have to do is work towards being on that straight path and we want to be on that straight path because Allah is الرحمن الرحيم we need to realize that this path إسلام إيمان إحسان the Quran that we've been given is the ultimate mercy it's the only way we're going to make it to our destination the only way we're going to make it to our destination we need to realize our destination is not this world but our destination is the Akhira and this world is just a stop on the highway that is the deen the highway that is our religion and we want to become distracted by the stops and we want to make it to our destination and we the سرات المستقيم is the sunnah and we need to implement the sunnah and realize that the sunnah is not just extra credit that implementing the sunnah is not extra credit it's not fine if you just do your follow that's not okay we can't reduce our the Islam to just what's called we need to also realize that Islam also contains the sunnah the way of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم what he's given us and that they were going to become like those who were who were unappreciative of it before so then the next ayah سراط الذين أن عمت عليهم غايم المغضوب عليهم والله those whom you favored the pious predecessors the righteous that came before us and even those who came before our Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم those nations were also given a sunnah that they were supposed to follow but the thing is they lost the way and that's why we have our deen because they lost their way and we need a deen for the entire world and so they lost their deen and they became the ones that earned the anger of Allah and we asked Allah not to make us among those but they became those who earned the anger of Allah and left the sunnahs of their prophets and what they were giving and when they left that Allah said you know Allah showed that He doesn't need them Allah simply replaced them with a new umma and we know where the last umma but we need to appreciate that where the last umma where the best umma that Musa A.A. wanted to be part of this umma he didn't want to be a prophet of this umma first he has to be a prophet but Allah said no then he said I want to be part of the umma but Allah said you can't be part of this umma you're already giving your own umma so we're blessed to be part of this umma and to be gathered that's where the word comes from and on top of that it's also Day of Eid it's a day of mercy a day of celebration and we should celebrate the fact that we are given opportunities to celebrate and opportunities to enjoy with each other to enjoy the Deen that we've been given and we don't want to be among those who didn't appreciate and didn't enjoy the Deen and they got lots along the way those are what are those are the Allah and Meen the ones who got lots of love and love the ones who got lost along the way and stopped maybe on the highway that is the religion and they stopped and they stopped to look out all the sites that were on the highway and they never realized they forgot that they were supposed to get to a destination until it was too late and it became too late and they were replaced so we don't want to be among those who lose ourselves in the more in the less important aspects of the in the most less important aspects of our lives you know we sometimes we fight arguments about where do I place my hands where does it to my size does it to my chest whereas if those aren't the things that are important Allah is not looking for where you put your hands you should know where to put your hands in the prayer obviously but that's not what Allah is looking for He is looking for your heart and to know that you appreciate the Deen and so إن شاء الله let's allow ourselves to appreciate the Deen to accept the blessings that we've been given and not to to allow it not to allow the blessings to leave us because Allah will take the blessings that we don't appreciate it I'll say this وصفل الله وعلكم ونسائد المسلمين وصفلوا إنه هو الغفور رحيم بسم الله ورحمه ورحمه وسهاته وسلامه على رسول الله وعاله وصحلي الله وعاله if you came late really the message I'm trying to get across is that the Fatihah has meaning and we recite it every single day at least 17 times 40 times if you're not leaving the Sunnahs so it's our job to at least appreciate the fact that we've been given these 7 great ayat and no nation before us has been given something like this this is the 7 jewels of the Qur'an these 7 jewels have not been given to anyone else no other nation has been given something like this an opportunity for us to first of all know our Lord and then to ask our Lord and then to speak to our Lord in our prayer it's a unique we're in a really unique situation where we're allowed to speak with our Lord and every single day Allah will give us our reminder through this Su'a that we have that He is the Lord of the Worlds that He is the Merciful that He is the One that's going to judge you if you don't appreciate those facts and then it reminds you to ask to recognize that first of all we worship Him and ask help from Him but then to ask for the help from Him and help in the matter of the Deen we can ask for help in other things but the most important thing is to ask for help in the matter of the Deen and if we don't ask for the help and don't ask for help in the matter of the Deen and we let it go we'll never see the benefit and then the Ummah will be gone and will be left without the sunnah without guidance and will be lost and will become amongst those who lost the way who Allah has showed their aim or pattern replaced and so remember that this way is the way of the Prophet ﷺ it is the Prophet ﷺ that his way is the only way that works right now it's relevant at all times and that will become irrelevant there's always a way to implement his sunnah there's nothing irrelevant so we should recognize that and try to find ways to implement his sunnah even if it's one small thing every single day if you can do it do it and recognize that this Prophet ﷺ was the greatest blessing we have and Allah says in the Qur'an that Allah and his angels send the blessings and the peace upon the Prophet ﷺ and He commands us to send the blessings and the peace on the Prophet ﷺ that this is an action that Allah and his angels do because we need to be in constant gratitude of that so with that we say اللهم صني على سيدنا ومولانا محمد وعلى آل سيدنا ومولانا محمد اللهم أنت السلام ومك السلام تبارك يا ذن جلالي وإكرام حينا وأضخلنا دار السلام ربنا آتنا في الدنيا حسنا وفي الآف ربنا حسنا وفي عذاب النوم ربنا هبنا من أزواجنا ورطائنا وجعلنا لمتقلنا ماذا إن الله وملائكته يصلونا على النبي يا إهم دينا آمر صلو علي وسلم تسلمة اللهم صني على سيدنا مولانا محمد وعلى آل سيدنا ومولانا محمد بارك صلم وصني عليك إن الله يأمر بالعدل والإخسان وإتاء وينهى علي فحشار والمنك والبض يعذوكم رعلكم تذكرون أذكروا الله يذكركم ولعوه شكرا


Welcome to Toffy TV, this is the starting 11 show for Crystal Palace versus Everton. Let's get into it. In goal, Jordan Pickford. Yeah, I mean a couple of mistakes in the week, obviously he'd been massively highlighted. Colin Sholotti was asked about it in his press conference, he said he wasn't looking for a goalkeeper even though we'd been rumoured with Romero from Manchester United. But obviously he's trying to, when he speaks to the press, trying to keep the confidence high for the goalkeeper who just seems to have these moments now and not now and again. He's had them for the last 12 to 18 months, nearly two years. And I suppose it's how far do you tolerate that?  I suppose that's the crossover the manager has to make in his decision making on where that crossover is after waiting to see. But at the moment, he's made an okay start to the season, did well at Spares, so a couple of mistakes last weekend's West Brom. But at the moment he's the definite number one at Everton. Virginia signed a new contract last week but then wasn't on the bench. Lassel came back for the game against Fleetwood, which was an interesting decision. After obviously Virginia had started the previous game against Salford in the Cup. So John Pickford is definitely Everton's number one and I don't see anybody in the squad replacing him as the number one. It would have to be from the outside and I can't really see someone coming in in the next 10 days to change that. I just can't. So we will start and go for me. Right back, Seamus Coleman being excellent in both games, being a real leader, stepped up to the plate at the end of the season. He said that a number of plays had to do that, so he will start at right back. At left back, Llucia Dean reverts to the left back play well in the week at centre back, but obviously not his natural position. It doesn't really for me have the physicality to play there against as we go further. But obviously needs most of the moment, but he'll go back to left back even though Colin Krug was great in the week.  The centre backs will be Michael Keane and Jerry Mina are only two centre backs who have fit, but obviously Michael Keane started the season very well. Mina should have really done better last week for Westbombs first goal. I think he gave the far away for the free kick as well and may not have jumped up on the wall as well. But he's a good player and hopefully we show that again tomorrow.  I've been at the Coleray again, being excellent at the two games and Andre Gomez, both all three plays. So he's rested for the game against Fleetwood on Wednesday night. So obviously they at the moment are the clear three that the manager is going to be starting. This play is pushing them, Guilfey Sigarton I think is on the fringes, not quite there yet. But it's them three, isn't it? That are definitely going to start in those three central areas. So yeah, hopefully same again with the three of them rested. On the right hand side, obviously Hamas Rodriguez will start there again, brilliant in both games.  So a couple of goals. You know, he can be the difference in these games, unlocking tough defences like Crystal Palace. He really could be the difference. So obviously he got to start and again another player of the rest in the week. On the left hand side, Richarlison has been instrumental for me in all the games he's played. Great to see him get off the score sheet on Wednesday night, but it's just been hugely effective over there. Wakes hard, assists, just doing everything he can other than scoring in the Premier League. But that will soon change. Hopefully in this game it will change. So he starts on the left on the front. Obviously he's done the carbon loon. Four goals in two games. Can't really say anything more than that in the Premier League. Got half a game against Fleetwood as well. And he's a player who never looks tired, always puts a shift in. Him and Richarlison are both the same. They'll run through brick walls for everything. So yeah, he'll start. And really, as well as a couple of people who've played, as I said before, on Konkuk, you know, the likes of Moise Keane coming off the bench, scored a couple of goals recently. That's the start of everything. That's Everton's best team as far as I'm concerned at this moment. Maybe when Mason Holgate comes back, he'll be pushing for one of those centre-back spots, but that is the strongest Everton 11 at the moment. And there's absolutely no need to change it. We want to keep that team as long as we can. So there you go. Let me know your thoughts in the comments. I doubt too many people will be arguing with me on this one. Give this video a like. Subscribe if you haven't already. You want more great videos. Join us over on Patreon. See you later.


Hello, this is Laptop Media, and today, we will show you how to open the Acer Predator Helios 18 and what's inside of it. To open this device, you need to undo a total of 14 Torx head screws. Then, pry the bottom panel, starting from the front, and carefully run your way around the device with a plastic tool. Please remember, it would be of great help to us if you just hit the like button and subscribe to our channel. That would motivate us to make even more and better videos for you. Inside, we find a 90Wh battery pack. To continue, unplug it from the motherboard. Here, you can put up to 32GB of DDR5 RAM, working at 5600MHz. The two Sodium slots work in dual-channel mode. In addition, there are two M.2 PCIe X4 slots, which fit Gen4 SSDs. The cooling, comprises a total of 5 heat pipes, connecting to 4 heat sinks. Two of Acer's aeroblade metal fans blow the heat away from the device, while a couple of heat spreaders deal with the VRMs and the graphics memory. If you'd like to see more disassembly videos of the latest notebooks, we would highly appreciate if you hit the like button and subscribe to the channel.


The Federal Road Safety Corps FRSC in Oshun says no fewer than 14 people lost their lives in an accident that occurred on Ikpetujesha in Lesha Highway on Saturday evening. The sector commander Paul Okwe made this known in a statement issued by Agnes Ogumbemi, the command spokesperson, which was made available to newsmen on Sunday morning in Oshobu. Okwe explained that the accident occurred at 5.40pm at the power line area, killing four males, four females and six children. He said the children were two females and four males, adding that a total of 14 people died in the accident involving 18 passengers. The sector commander explained that four males who survived in the accident were rushed to a nearby hospital.


So, let's talk about altruism first, and then we'll talk about, is there an alternative to altruism? Because there's probably no concept in the world today, more accepted, more viewed positively, or just, you know, acknowledge, this is morality, this is what ethics means, then altruism is, and it is being good, being just, being right. Now, I think that altruism, it lives it, it practices it, not consistently, because you can't, let's be honest, right? It's just, it's good. We live our lives, if somebody is walking, is struggling, getting up in the bus, who are studying an institution that has this as one of your moral duties, just being nice. No, right? So what is it? In front of yourself, a French philosopher, in the 19th century, I mean it exists way back, certainly Christianity says for the altruism is a key feature, but as a term, as a word, it was coined by Augustine Kant, just to be moral, to be for the sake of, you know, it changed my life, it changed Jeremy's life, it's, it's, these are powerful words, because they will challenge everything you believe in, people you disagree with, just read the stuff you agree with, you're just stuck. It tells them exactly what they need to do in order to survive, exactly what they need to do in order to live successfully. There is a way to choose right versus wrong, what we will. As a species and a suicide, we can choose to die. This situation teaches us anymore. This is good. This is good. This is what you should be challenging. So human beings are unique. But generally, what you want to show is that human beings have successful, this thing called sense.  It's just things that we want. Like a plant. A plant's values, you choose them. Nature has chosen them for you. And what are plant's values? Sunlight. So if you put a plant in the shade, it goes over the sun like this. What else is a value? Think of cheetahs, value is speed and agility. It's impossible for us. People here have the gene, some of your parents might be farmers. I mean, some people not so well, but mostly everybody gets there. How do we do chemistry of nature? We reshape nature to fit out. If you drop a seed on trees at some point, it's got a ribbon. It's got a moon. It's got a sun. So the seed is new things. In history, not today. But in history, what do we do? People discover new things and challenge the status in human history. We have no geniuses. I think discovery was then turned into what we call that. If that science is true, we can do this on a mass scale. We can get seeds. And we can sow the seeds and do whatever they call council or the state. People find ways to improve our survival as human beings. If you look at those hundred years, those places around the world where they're low 30s or high 30s depended, there is some way between us. Easily. 88% of the population up until about 200 years goes to $2 a day. We're so rich today. We asked for us in our lives to think you're an insensitive people. You can think for yourself. You won't stop me from doing it. The truth exists. Using your reason to guide you because it's all we have. Nature hasn't given us the program to help us survive. This study actually just says, to give us principles, to give us that knowledge again. We're not born with human beings need to take to advanced because we're going to put the lights to the wood. And we are happiness, fulfillment, flourishing as an individual. Happiness, my own personal fulfillment. Emotions change. What causes them to change. So new facts is how you feel as a consequence. Justified or unjustified given the circumstances. Something like that. This in itself is not twins like in the ocean. Miles and miles. This is an amazing swimmer. Because he reprogrammed his emotions. It's how we stay out of it. It's a machinery. Computer science. Those of you who know a little bit about computers. It's called God. It's a machinery. With your computer. With your soul. With your business.  It's the purpose of helping other people. Get on to your spouse in the future. When you get married. It's just not that if you're in this guest, it's seeded banking of your life. That's the most crucial part of the guest. Because it seems the part is the reality. It's destructive. It's one of the things that altruism can do. Happiness. You should be thinking about other people. To ensure you can also add value. Some of them, there's one who's a scum. It could be business. Everybody says family. So it's the main source of sustains of family. But we just do it. There's a wonderful speech that Steve Jobs made at Stanford University. The commencement address at Stanford University. Go find it on YouTube. Steve Jobs, Stanford. That's a sensible being. That's finality from the happiness. And self esteem is not something. But this course in America, we did exactly the same. Emotional to happiness. Again, you spend most of your time there.  Because some of us chose to be cheap. So I can do this. Dependence. Buy it as a sin. Buy it as a sin. What is pride?  That's what pride drives us towards. An important virtue in America. It only needs some years. The price. Some kind of mutually evidence. That's what justice demands. Treating the good as good. And the good in this case is good for all. Because helping them is a sacrifice. Everybody's good. Everybody has a goodness in them. Now, some people are them. To figure out who's good for you is bad for you. And treat them accordingly. To shape your ideas. Trying to figure out. Challenging your teachers. Challenging your parents. Challenging your friends. Reading broadly. You know, the ages between, I'd say, 15, 16 to 25, 26. Before you have a family. How do you? That will shape your entire life into the future. What decisions you make of our life now will shape your future now.  Who cares? And that's how six, seven, two years. Who cares? It's stressing on what university is going to accept me. What's your next penny? Should it be this or should it be that? Do something.


Okay, so let's go ahead and get started. So we have a couple of coming events. We have ONS Europe coming up in Amsterdam from September 25th through 27th. We have a main presentation that is going to be that is going to be done by both me and Kyle, so if you were going to be in ONS Amsterdam, we would love to have you there. The information that we're going to be covering is all information that you are all probably familiar with, but I think it would also be a good opportunity to further discuss and clarify and but yeah, we would love to see anyone who is present here. We would love to see you there. Thanks, Sam. I'll be there looking forward to meet you, but I'm keep from being there. Fantastic. Okay, and in terms of there's also an opportunity for speaking at the FDIO mini summit as well.  I don't know if we have any talks in there. Ed should know and Ed will hop on in a short while so we can ask him. We have CubeCon Seattle coming up. We've put in some talks there. We won't know until a little while whether the talks have been accepted, but we have a few talks that have been submitted by various people. And finally, running at the same time as CubeCon Seattle at CubeCon Seattle is the FDIO mini summit. And so the call for papers closes on October 5th. So if you would like to talk about a FIDO related integration and looking at you, Tom, please go ahead and submit. Yes, Frederick. There's also maybe this is looking too far ahead, but February, I found it, lost them. There is going to be a NFV dev room. And so they're inviting talks for that. I'll post the contact information for submitting on the chat here or in the minutes, just a minute. Cool. So I've added that as the upcoming events and we can update that with information as we go along. Okay. So we also have EnvoyCon coming up. And I'm also unfamiliar if we have any papers in there. I'm not aware of any at this point of any talks that have been submitted to that. But that may be interesting for some of the people who are involved here as well. So in terms of... So I'm going to switch it up a little bit. So historically we do the action items before, but I find that we often run out of time to discuss other items that are important. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to have us go over some of the main topics first and then we can follow up with the action items on the important ones. And I would like to have Ed here for one of the conversations. So I'm going to put that at the end. So that particular one is going to be on... So we're reviewing the APIs and architecture. So just a little background. So the initial set of APIs that we created were literally the first thing that we added to the project. We've learned a lot since then. We're finding ways to simplify and clarify the APIs and ideally make them better. So anyways, with that... So let's start with the VPP cross-connect with Tom. So how is... Can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing? And then we'll take it from there. So the objective is to take a simple case and put facts on the ground showing what we can do with deploying something in a real-world data plane. So VPP is relatively easy because it has a go interface and there's a go agent available in Legato. I thought that I would start with just basically a layer 2 connection to see if we could deploy a layer 2 connection entirely with NSM, stand it up and break it down and be able to show passing traffic through it. So it's a simple test case, but it'll include most of the elements for a VPP connection at any other level in the stack as well as perhaps be related to future doing the same thing to OBS, DPDK or another data plane. Okay, cool. And something I've agreed to help Tom with is creating the network service endpoint. So... Yes, I'm being relatively new with this and I realize I actually got a question on the chat about how far I've gone and whether there was a dev branch or a pull request yet. So it's not yet, at this point, I am carefully watching the discussion about the protocol between the NSM endpoint and the extended NSM to see exactly how how this will fit in. Yeah, and so what you're saying then is, well, part of it is going to be working with me on the creating the network service endpoint, but basically the outcomes of that architecture review is an important outcome for you in this scenario. Exactly. So yeah, just to make it clear, one of our goals with that architectural review is that we want to create a document or some literature that describes the architecture in more detail and with some of the patterns that we expect to see. So because right now, a lot of it is in the heads of me and Ed. And so even other people who are working intimately in the project need more context as well in order to be successful. So part of the goal is to be able to give that context and with sufficient detail so that we can effectively give guidance and has to like how we expect it to work and simultaneously get feedback as well because the more people who understand it, the more and better feedback we can get as well. So, okay, well, my time is going to be a little bit limited up to ONS demo, but after the ONS time, rather sorry for the ONS conference, but after the ONS conference, then my time should free up a lot and let's work closely together and iterate on this as well in order to get the VPP cross-connect done. Is that sound like a good plan? Agreed. Cool. Hello Ed. Hey. So we shuffled around a few things in the agenda so that we can make sure that you're here for things. So we were just finishing up the discussion on VPP cross-connect that that Tom is heading up. So, okay, so the next item on the agenda was the ONS Amsterdam review. So one item is that Kyle and I need to finish our presentation. So one of the questions that that that I have then is this particular scenario is like, I know we have limited time left, but is there anything that we want to do or discuss or be on the same page about for ONS Amsterdam? Are you sort of asking like, are there any other stories we would like to tell that we we don't currently have collateral for or? That could be that could be it. It could be stories we want to tell. So a little it's a bit unfortunate. We have about 30 minutes. Whoever is sharing, you're browsing through your email right now, all that you're sharing, which is probably not what you meant to be doing. So you probably want to stop sharing and then we can get someone to share the agenda and stuff. Yeah, you're right. I was just trying to get the contact information for or foster them that bedroom. But I'll look it up later and add it. All right, that's cool. I mean, I don't have any problem with this. Just I've been that guy sharing things I shouldn't share. And so I try and be helpful. I forgot I was sharing. Now you know all my secrets. Sorry for the interruption. Cool. Yeah, so it could be it could. So there's a challenge that we have and that we only first in the interest of trying us to create more presentation slots in the limited amount of time. They've the organizers have reduced has over time been reducing the size of their of the talks. So for example, the talks used to be an hour and then add at open source summit talk that I gave us 40 minutes. This talk is going to be 30 minutes. And so so we have to get a effectively we're going to end up we're going to end up doing something like the 98 slides in 20 minutes. Probably as time moves on, it can be done. Yeah, so so we so we need to be very careful as to how we how we do this because we only it's not only do we only have 30 30 minutes. It's also we have to we also have a varying degrees of of expertise. So so we will also have to take that into into account. But I think what we should do is is Kyle and I can give the initial basic this is what it is maybe go over one of the one of the use case during architecture diagram showing what it looks like could drive into one of the use cases and discuss or maybe the other way around drive into use cases like Sarah or so on with the VPN. And and then direct them find a way to direct people to help find a network service mesh champion who can go more in detail which doesn't have to be me or Kyle anyone who's there who's in this conversation can can help with that as well. But effectively we want people to work out how to how to find us and how to get involved. And I think that to me that's the most important part is how do we get people involved because the more people that we have typing, the more people that we have understanding and developing network service endpoints or or ESMs or so on the better. So effectively we want to try to build that community. So how about we do this as well. So I just realized I was talking on mute. Sorry. I was going to say I totally agree with you and the audio is badly broken. I don't know. I'm saying maybe it's my problem or I don't know. It's like everybody's saying the same same problem. Yeah I can hear Kyle well.  Yeah one thing you may want to try is I don't know if you're dialed in on a phone or over or over the internet but sometimes one or the other is better I don't know. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm down below my phone. Maybe it's my VIP problem then. Could be. Yeah thanks. Oddly enough recently I've actually had better luck with the the internet that I have a phone sometimes. So. Wow okay. Now it's all better actually. Last couple of minutes was really bad. Now it's like perfect. Yeah thanks. Oh glad this working well for you. Excellent. So I'll just I'll just summarize. So Frederick I just briefly bringing it back. I was going to agree with with everything you were saying in 30 minutes is is tight and I like the idea of the main kind of the main point being you know here's what it is and here's where to find us to continue the discussion. Yeah and I think we should probably do what we did before as well where we had a you know we went in open source summit we went to to the Ark restaurant in in the Fairmont waterfront and we told people what time we were going to be there and we all sat down and we had just real casual conversations. Perhaps we can do something similar as well and just say hey we're going to Kyle and I and anyone who wants to attend you know we're going to we're going to be here you should you should be there as well if you want to ask us detailed questions on this. So in other words move the Q&A to a to to an off site. Yeah and as I'm happy our work really nicely at OSS I think that's probably a good tradition to keep going. So I think we should I think we should do the same thing. Cool well in that particular scenario I think from the ONS Amsterdam we don't have any other special special sessions or like there's no cloud native site presentation or anything like that so so I think we can probably keep Amsterdam simple and then the focus after that's going to have to be on getting a proof of concept done with the after after ONS Amsterdam and then really having something that we can hit out of the park with over at kubecon. So this is like a message we're coming you know like when network service mesh is coming and then we arrive so cool is there anything else that we want to discuss on the Amsterdam or should we move on to removing channels from API? I think that's good. Cool so we have removing channels from the API so that's part of the API review and and architecture review. This is something that we're already actively working on so I thought I'd single it out. So just some context beforehand when we were going through the various through the various scenarios one of the things that we discovered was that we would often every time that we would come up with a network service we would only use one channel and this pattern repeated over and over and over again and so the initial idea of the channel when I was creating the gRPC system was or the protocol was that perhaps you might have a network service that might give you a data channel and a management channel and so on but thinking more about it after the fact when we started discussing removing channels one of the things that I thought was well if you want a data channel for a specific thing or control or management channel those could individually be network services themselves as well so you would so if you need access to the management plane you would explicitly ask for management in that scenario and not get it as a channel and so I think in this scenario we don't break any use cases it would just be a we would just be using it as we as we currently are and simplify the architecture um a quick question if I may ask this is Ramki I'm still catching up on all the aspects so any reason to speed management exclusively so I didn't hear you what you do what exclusively no so my question was any reason to sort of have an exclusive treatment for management I mean it's just another interface you want to deal with right wondering is there anything special we're trying to do there are you talking about the exactly network interfaces I mean of course for receiving raw packets we need to open up interfaces and of course if you want like um a separate management interface yes you do but I also heard there is going to be some special treatment on for management interface or did I read it wrong well so you probably didn't quite read it wrong this is actually a really good question so thank you for asking it one of the things that network service mesh does is it leaves completely alone the kubernetes networking because all the other proposals to date make a real mess of the kubernetes networking in the process of trying to get the things that we need for NFE and so network service mesh just leaves that alone right and we bring in the l2 l3 connections for the cnfs you want to talk to and and it is most people when they look at deploying cnfs into kubernetes they just treat the traditional kubernetes interface as a magic management interface and so if that's what you want to treat as your management interface we have nothing to do with it that's being handled by cni does that make sense can you repeat that last part again right so if you're just talking about the interface that provides you your normal kubernetes networking your kubernetes network policy kubernetes services that kind of stuff right we leave that completely alone that's being provided to you by kubernetes it doesn't really well uh they don't actually want to add anything to that that talks about interfaces or subnets um and so we leave that be okay okay and i've got it and i'm okay so if you're asking why do we treat it specially we treat it especially because the kubernetes people don't want us mucking with it got it no no make sense yeah yeah yeah this is perfect now i was actually even further delineating among the interfaces which network service mesh wants is there a special treatment on management that that i was actually there already so among i mean not the kubernetes management interface but let's say you have pull-off interfaces and then you know you may use one for your external management of the cnf and other is actually the cnf data plane is there any special treatment on that cnf management interface which network service mesh wants looks like not from network service mesh's points of put of view right i mean we treat it like any other cross connect in the system um you may decide that you would configure it in all kinds of interesting ways given the tools the network service mesh gives you but we just do what you ask um this is this is what i was thinking and tell me if i'm thinking this is too convoluted but to me i thought it was fairly straightforward that for example on this cross connect project or this um or call it a bridge domain provider that the the nsm would just i would talk to the ns the nsm endpoint would arrange for the in effect the virtual physical connections you know whatever is underneath that layer two provider and they and the uh standing up the actual data plane demons itself and things like that but the management could be you log into you you uh you know you just talk you get an ssh into that container in an issue of vpp cuddle commands or the management could just be that that container um has an ip and the management traffic goes through the ip and it was on the on the com for rest stops that's the way that was part of what you're hearing is you have choices so many choices do you have if you like them yeah like from a from a guidance perspective the way that we're going to recommend people typically set it up is that you set up a network service endpoint or a nsm that that exposes a network service endpoint that uh that can provide you the functionality that you that you want but if for some reason you're dealing with something that needs to have very fine grain type control you have the ability to request for for that ability and of course you have to have something that can give you that that control um but uh but generally like from a management perspective we want we want to try to to encapsulate that all within a network service endpoint for a given task so if you say i want a vpn use a request vpn you get a vpn and or request a hardware nick you get a hardware nick um so so anyways so we've um so we're in the process of removing channels from the api so when you request a specific service you're there's there's no longer going to be the concept of a channel it's just going to be you request the service and you and then that's what you get delivered is uh a cross-connect to that service does uh does that make sense yes and it's up to the service to arrange for the management um explain connection yeah so the management plane i mean to the s the remote s the end controller if there is one but actually the management network it could be as one of the services uh you request okay give me a management and management interface which is a service and then your container or port will get that extra interface which you will use in your application as a management yeah i mean that that's actually exactly right survey so one of the things a lot of the examples we have will show a network service endpoint just to somebody who accepts incoming requests everybody's breaking up badly for me so i didn't hear what sergi do you do you want to repeat that again sergi uh so is it better now i mean is it my internet connection or you can hear me well you you've started good to me both times so i i don't okay all right so basically i was just saying that uh the actual management interface you're talking about can be considered as a service so your application requests give me management interface which is a network service and you'll have your extra interface in your pod and then you just use it for your management purposes exactly that's what i was trying to say you said it properly sergi i probably said it improperly didn't use the right terminology but yeah it's just another so um here's where you've been incredibly helpful to this romkey um with your question all the examples that we currently show show a network service endpoint just to something that that pods connect to to get a network service what they don't show is that network service endpoint could be consuming network services from other places like consuming a management interface network service and so that you will close that gap in what we talk about so thank you so much okay thank you and if i may ask another question on integration so so far we talked about vpp integration is there some um how would you integrate i mean if you need with other uh you know overlay solutions for example vmware nsx nsxt is there some sort of mechanism to do that yeah so no we're we're actually extremely careful about maintaining um data plane agnosticism there are a lot of folks here who got experience with vpp so you'll you'll definitely see some vpp data planes in the mix but effectively what ends up with what's starting to emerge is the network service manager will have a g rpc api that it speaks to whatever the data plane is and asks that local data plane to set up whatever has to be set up um and so if you have a non-vpp data plane you just need your data plane to expose that interface to the network service manager and everything should work fine okay okay very nice is there any material sort of about that how that processes so this actually segues nicely into the review api as an architecture because um surgae who does a ton of work on the code finally sort of put a split down and said listen guys you have got to give me crisper definitions of what the fuck is going on with these apis and so we're writing that document right now um you know but the one thing i do want to be really clear about is if you have interest in other data planes plugging in here none of this stuff is set in stone yet and so if you look at it and say okay i don't quite understand how i would do this thing that i care about please bring those things up right because generally speaking often they involve discovering that you think a little bit more about what we're doing does that make sense yep thank you so one quick question has anyone has anyone gone over the presentation with you with the the narratives yes um romp that that's directed to you as well i'm just uh going through these um as we speak well yeah if you want uh if you have time after this um i can stick around and we can go over some of the narratives as well and i can help you get a better sense as to what uh what it is that we're doing sure yeah that'll be great cool okay so that's um with that let's go in segue into the review uh apis and and architecture so in terms of reviewing the apis just to set the stage on there so a couple things has happened since we first wrote the g rpc uh definitions and one of them is we've got a much better understanding of the space uh and the concerns that we're that we're working on and so as a part of it is trying to number one trying to uh tighten up those uh those constraints and and uh to have to have our code reflect new learnings that we've uh that we've had and part of it as well is to ensure that we get uh like we said before the guidance is incredibly important so we want to make sure that that everyone like right now we each person will have a different slightly different view as to whatever service mesh is and so we want to reduce those uh those differences as much as we can so we can get more effective communication and more effective uh more effectively uh implement what what we want to implement so so with that as the context as well um so the the first area that we started to look at was was specifically the uh g rpc endpoints themselves so um hey ed do you want to talk a little bit about that because i know you've been working on providing some of the guidance yeah so like one of the things that's let me actually see if i at the risk of showing a highly we were just scribbling kind of deck um but you know me i i find pictures help almost everything um we were trying to figure out we were trying to sort of say okay well what are the different reference points in the system um and you know and what do they what kinds of apis do we have with them so give me just a second i will share this deck i do apologize it is not actually needed for presentation it was actually made for folks to brainstorm together but it has some really good pictures in it and i think pictures you need me to stop i'll stop sharing yep you can share okay cool and this will probably help a lot of your questions wrong key as well so um awesome so please note we're not actually showing the flow of messages in this picture we're just sort of showing who talked to with what he'd like um can everyone see the share yeah awesome so um and and let me stick the link to the slides in the chat real quick so that folks can get to it generally speaking i do all of my decks um in a way that lets everybody get to them right off the bat so sometimes even when you're not even vaguely said but effectively if you look here like the components you have are you have on every node you have an nsm um and then you know we've got also the kubernetes api server whatever the data plane is this sort of gets to your question wrong key we don't much care what the data plane is quite frankly as long as it can do the work of the cross connecting um and then um you know you have whatever pod you have that wants to connect to a network service and then you have a network service endpoint over here in node two the nsc so the api of the pod uses over g rpc to ask to connect to a network service we've sort of negatively named the pod to nsm api because it's how a pod talks to the nsm and that's also how an nsc would talk to its um nsm to expose whatever service it provides um obviously we've talked about having crds for network services network service endpoints and network service wirings those are just normal crds that you get from the kubernetes api server if you're an nsm uh we talked about the fact that the two nsm's have to negotiate here to pier for sort of the what is the remote what are the remote parameters we're dealing with here what kind of tunnel what kind of tunnel parameters and that's been currently creatively named the nsm to nsm api please note better names are always welcome um and then this was the api i was talking about wrong key where the network service manager talks to whatever data plane to handle the cross connect and that's a fairly well nsm to data plane at one thing to note here by the way is network service mesh only really deals with cross connects right so if you want a virtual bridge domain um that's a network service from our point of view and we're perfectly delighted to connect you to that network service if someone is providing it but but because it's cross connect oriented it ends up being hyper hyper simple you know so you wouldn't have to configure a whole bunch of machinations in the data plane about this you would basically just have to give it up information against what the cross connect makes sense yeah so sorry previous picture so that by nsm to data plane the tunnel is being set up by nsm by talking to the relevant plug in this that am I reading it right in the south bone direction so what the nsm in the nsm to data plane asked the data plane to do is it asked it to create an injected interface for the cross connect into whatever the relevant pod is it asked it to stand up its local side of the tunnel right so nsm one would create this interface to pop the pod it would create its side of the tunnel nsm two over that same interface to whatever its data plane is creates and injects the interface into the network service endpoint and creates its into the tunnel and the nsm to data plane creates the tunnel which will connect both of them right yeah most most tunnels are sort of the do we have the parameters matching right am I sending vxlan to the right ip address on the right port right d and i um you know and then the same is true for most tunnel types um there are some weird exceptions like gtp that are much more complex but but for most tunnel types that's really what you're dealing with okay make sense yeah cool so the the second one that we talked about and this is just showing the api enumeration we talk sometimes about the ensm or the external nsm and this is just sort of showing that example the way the ensm works is it's just a network service manager that manages some aspect of something that is not in your cluster in this case a piece of your physical network and so all the api stay the same and nsm one would still talk to the ensm with the same nsm to nsm uh grpc api and then your ensm will talk whatever it is that it has to do to your physical network function in order to set up it's into the cross-connect you know that might be net copy yang it might be whatever i mean that that's up to the figure out we just sort of ask it for something you know it advertised the certain network service endpoints that hey i've got a network service endpoint like this over here come ask me about it and we said okay great we'd like to cross connect to that you know let's do this make sense cool uh the the next example that we had here was you can also use ensm for multi cluster behaviors um because from the point of view of cluster one cluster two is just something that's out there in the world right it's external to cluster one and so you could have an ensm that allows you to from that would advertise some maybe all of the network service endpoints from cluster two into cluster one and then you know cluster one could then look them up you know see that you release them via the ensm and do the nsm to nsm protocol to the ensm which then would do whatever it has to do in cluster two to set up it's into the cross actually stretch across does that kind of make sense to the books yeah i mean this model looks a little bit strange to me because basically i don't see um i don't see a value in having extra hope in the between the cluster communication because if the resource is advertised with with the um with the IP address then basically nothing preventing ensm one to directly connect to to ensm two that's actually a really good point and you could actually do that now that you mentioned it so that's actually why we have these discussions you would need something here that would do the cross advertisements but you're right you could just have ensm one talk directly to ensm two and from you know ensm one's point of view ensm two is an external ensm but yeah we should definitely rework that in this direction thank you for bringing that up that vastly simplified and then the the deal of uh replicating the custom resource objects basically can be given to the actual multi cluster which comes with the kubernetes cluster so let them to synchronize and deal with the all the api related activities and we deal only with the ensm related stuff no that that's an excellent point we should revise this diagram because i think your suggestion is much simpler in this case uh so thank you um cool the only thing i would point out is from the point of view of ensm one sitting in cluster one ensm two sitting in cluster two is an external ensm because it lives outside the cluster but it can't tell any different it doesn't know all it knows is reached out to an ensm cool so the last one the bottom the bottom line is that the ensm two ensm protocol is discussed is used to discuss between any ensm and any other ensm whether they are an external ensm an ensm end point or just a normal ensm exactly correct exactly and in fact ensm one doesn't know any different because he just looked up the right network service endpoint on the kubernetes api found it and said okay i'm gonna go talk to this guy i have his ip in port and the fact that he's not in the same cluster not our problem makes sense cool um and then the last example we sort of showed was the proxy ensm um and a proxy ensm is an interesting beast because essentially it's the realization that using network service wiring i can actually have a proxy ensm that doesn't actually have the network service endpoint at all um but it is being wired into the middle of the conversation so that i could bring in additional i can basically put my thumb on the scale so imagine a scenario where um sometimes when someone tries to connect to the ensm i would like to go and either do something to the physical network even though the physical network is not handling the nse or i might want to do something like insert additional parameters like extra srv6 sids into the tunnel parameters basically the pnsm sitting in here is a proxy can do an enormously wide range of things um it is incredibly powerful i we will often talk about it as being the lightsaber of network service mesh because it can cut through anything but if you are not strong in the force you're likely to cut your own damn arm off i hope it will not become pnsa box you can neither confirm nor deny the so yeah one of the things with the uh proxy ensm as well is um so our understanding of these at this point is that most use cases will be able to be solved with the standard network service endpoint or the external nsm for controlling something that's out of the cluster so uh so the pnsm uh when someone says oh i want to bring in a pnsm uh to use a phrase that that uses that's an invitation to think more of your problem before you reach for it because it has a lot of of power there's a lot more power that's there but with that power there's also the ability to uh there's the rails are all off like all of the safeties are pretty much off at that point and so uh so you should only bring it in if you if you absolutely if you absolutely need to yeah with great power comes great responsibility so cool just a quick just a quick suggestion perhaps um we could put the brainstorming brainstorming on network um url to that google doc into the network service mesh group meaning notes i somehow lost the link to that i had looked at it earlier of course like but it might be really fine i will drop it really quickly into the chat and then i'll try and get it there myself once i'm not sharing anymore okay if you drop it in the chat i'll put it in the document yeah just make sure it's labeled as please don't take this too seriously it is a brainstorming document not a declaration of the world um and hopefully romki did some of the things clear for you yeah no no yeah it's getting very clear yeah thank you thank you so much for the detail that is why we draw pretty pictures i think they take a while but but they're helpful cool um and then let's see what else do we have here i think these were just slides that were copied them in case we were going to use them and then um we had some notes here where surge was sort of talking through some of the stuff do you want to talk through some of your notes here surge uh well i guess these notes are less relevant uh since most of the stuff now is in the document api review document and i encourage people to go through and make sure that let's say if you are interested in some applications make sure that the current api gives you necessary tools to pass that information around between the uh application and the user of that application so please review and comment in the pr which is in the document yep yep excellent so i think that's that's probably for the best um cool so anything else that the you know surge and kyle frederick that you think i should cover in this particular brainstorming deck that went on so i think um so the only thing that i think in terms of the pnsm so like in the context of discussion that we had i think it makes a lot of sense when it comes down to actually so at at the end of the day something that i would love to have come out of this is um something that is something a little bit more formal than the uh than the brainstorming deck so after we're done with the architectural review so on you know i'm happy to spend time documenting all of this in the same way that we did the what is nsm document before you know and follow the same pattern but say this is the architecture and describe the the outcomes of it and describe in detail these are the messages and these are the this is the pattern and work through uh various uh various problems and something that would be absolutely fantastic and we'll tie this into what you're doing uh tom is one of the examples that we'll use in that in that architecture path as well will be going through what we did in order to make the vpp example work after we've gone through all of the all of the documents and that can turn into a tutorial effectively for people who want to implement their own cross connects as well so it ties all the stories together so i think like this is the beginning of that of that journey yes exactly and everybody please and i heard a comment understand that this that this is not vpp is just a low hanging fruit the way i see it and and my own approach to this to get facts on the ground initially but i i don't see any reason why you couldn't do it with ovs dpdk for example it's just it's not the um that the demon sat and the endpoint or the external nsm has to manage the kinds of stuff that you would use to put to put you know oh to get ovs uh running in a you know normally and that it's that that's that it's just different stuff to do and i would assume that once we have one done we could extrapolate that to another to others um there's parallel work done the people who are for example are working on multis have are looking at this all differently because they're of course messing with the uh with the uh kubernetes networking api but one thing they have in the common is they're trying to generalize the api or generalize the connections to the data plane underneath and and that's the idea is i think once we once we get one done then we can go back and make sure that everything sufficiently generalized you could literally unplug one data plane and plug in another even on an operating system or on a in an operating network one of the other things that we've talked about a little bit is there may be more than one data plane running on a particular node because for example you know not every data plane is you know is going to support everything so you may have oh you know a data plane that is very smart about how do you plug sri oveenix in to your pods um and then you may have a data plane that's very smart about remote cross connects and trying to make a single is not not necessarily your best plan the question is then is there two nsm's in that pod one for each data plane just the one on a seven that's interesting that would require some additional bits in the protocol i would think so that we know right you're right you're right but i mean this is the stuff we're going to start out fairly quickly hopefully as we you know flesh out the architecture documents so we can really put a fine point on some of these things just to clarify the problem statement are we saying so essentially there are two type of hardware clusters like for example one with sri ovee and then one without sri ovee running obviously pdk and is the goal is to nsm be able to seamlessly interconnect them using a overlay no not quite so the thing and we have other you know you know and some of the stories that that narrative decks that that um Fred was talking about showing you in next hour um it turns out that that nobody actually wants an sri ovee nick like that's a meaningless request what you really want is an sri ovee nick that provides some network service you care about it's plugged into some network maybe it has some asials or some cost applying to it um it has at least a certain kind of bandwidth etc and so network service mesh expresses all of that is still a network service it's just that you would request a network service using a mechanism that is basically i would like my mechanism to connect with this network service to be an sri ovee nick um and then we will connect you up to that and then whatever it is that's running inside your pod whether it's a vpp instance or some handcrafted dpdk thing or whatever once we've given you the dpdk once you give me the sri ovee nick it's up to you what you want to do with it all we're telling you this is an sri ovee nick it is connected to the network service you asked for but actually you're looking at it much more i guess you're looking at it more like a smart nick right it's not really a sri ovee looking at it doesn't have to be a smart nick at all like even no but i mean it's the smart nick type capabilities more advanced capabilities i'm trying to you know oh doesn't even have to have advanced capability doesn't have to have advanced capabilities i could even take a dumb nick that doesn't have sri ovee at all and i want to get a network service via that nick that nick is plugged into a top of rack switch port and that top of rack switch correct switch network service makes sense okay cool makes sense yeah basically you want to be in point agnostic it could be anywhere yeah yeah but you want to make sure that if i give you i do connect you to that hardware nick that it's actually doing the thing you want it like if you want a particular network service you should be getting that and that network service is some combination of you know the bandwidth of the nick the network it's connected to the features that are applied to that port in terms of quass and you know acls and other kinds of things all of that is sort of the union of all of those things is your network service and this is one of the big realizations of network service mesh is nobody actually wants any one of those things in isolation those are sort of meaningless things to ask for in isolation you really just want to be able to say this is the thing i want and get it right because nobody also gives them what they want their connections they care do they get this particular sort of services they should get cool so any in the interest of time i have one other item that we need to originally discuss and then i'm happy to stick around afterwards as well to talk with you rumpki so thank you so the last item is so next next week i will not be around because i'll probably be on an airplane or on my way to an airplane because i have to be there for the odl ddf as well so if if anyone so so i assume that people still want to run the meeting next week so i'll need someone to to step up and run the meeting for next week if nobody else is available i'd be happy to do that because i am not going to unfortunately on this week sounds great cool and um so uh i don't know how to do it but in other words i don't know how to manage the zoom stuff um we all get by with a little help we all get by with a little help from our friends the good news is the zoom stuff is pretty self managing um basically once the first person connects to the zoom meeting uh the recording starts once the last person yeah once the last person disconnects from the zoom meeting the recording stops that it's automatically published to youtube so just keep in mind we're being recorded okay we we don't have the psa in here but but it's close cool and uh with that is there any last minute items that anyone wants to cover or should we close the meeting now cool well again thank you everyone for uh for attending and quick question because this is recorded and published to youtube do we want to jump on a different bridge with romki after this yeah i was going to recommend that uh so romki i think i sent you on the chat my so do you want me to um should i call your number directly just just text me and then i will get you the information about where we're jumping to you from here because we'll want to share slides and stuff cool perfect all right thank you i might join you later too in about 15 minutes just for less than him oh perfect ping me on ping me on irc we're gonna go on all right thank you