I'm here to talk to you about embedded Linux. Imagine that at a conference like this. There's something of a dream come true to me, to be able to speak at a conference like this. So I'm very excited about this and a little terrified. So we'll see how this goes. Start off and talk a little bit about me, what makes me think I can come here and talk to you. I spent 20 years developing communication systems for some for DoD, some for commercial. I worked on cell phone base stations. I worked on the body wire, the digital version of the body wire that an undercover agent might wear on a drug bust. Did underwater acoustic communications. Along the way, one of my jobs, I worked on the seeker, a board that would go in the seeker of an anti-missile missile. And so that qualifies me to say that I am a rocket scientist. So I can get up here. After 20 years of doing that, I left that. I went to work with a research group at MIT that was developing a retinal implant to restore sight to people with certain forms of blindness. Very exciting work and very diverse work. I could be sitting at my desk one day developing the ASIC that was going in our next generation device and the next day be in an animal surgical trial and have the surgeon say to me, Patrick, can you put on some gloves and help me with this? So the retina is an extension of brain tissue to the outside world.  I left that. We ran out of funding. I went to work for a small start-up company that was developing robots for agricultural commercial nursery industry. I spent the last five years or so playing with robots. First at Harvest Automation and then now at iRobot so I can claim to be a roboticist. Still working on Dr. Lawyer, Indian Chief. I don't know that I'll get all of those in. But the other thing, the main thing I'm here, qualifies me to be here, is I'm a Linux enthusiast. I have been running Linux in some form or another since 1995. There might be a few of you out here who weren't even born in 1995. If you go and look on the Internet, you can find Linus' original email talking about here is this thing I've been playing with called Linux from 1991. So I've been playing with it for a long time, thrilled the last several years to actually get paid to play with it. Over the years, I really wish those of you who contribute to and maintain open source packages on a regular basis, thank you. I appreciate all the work you put into this. I've done bits and pieces over the years. I use a tool, if I find a problem or want a feature, I add to it. So I've got some patches in Octave from very early on. More recently, I've got patches in Icarus Verilog. I have a one-line patch in the kernel, in the mainline kernel. So that's my claim to why I can stand up here and talk to you. Any of you could be standing up here talking to me, and I've learned from all of you over this past week. So again, thank you. But I don't really want to talk to you about me. I want to talk to you about robots, not these robots, these droids, or as they call them, the kids call them, but real robots and how we're running embedded Linux on them. It's really hard to sell, I found out at Harvest Automation. It's really hard to sell robots to a generation that's been raised on Hollywood droids. You know, they watch a robot going around. They say, why is that robot so stupid? Didn't it see that? You know, why did it do that that way? It's hard. They're not Hollywood robots. So doing things a little backwards, and I'll get into a gen, I'm going to talk about embedded Linux di-robot then. We used to do lots of DoD robots on x86 processors, mostly running open embedded. And now, where we're, or almost now, where we're running embedded Linux on consumer robots with ARM processors.  I was not here for any of the then. I joined iRobot about a year and a half ago, and you'll find out that we're going back all the way to 1999 is when iRobot has been started doing embedded Linux on robots. I'm also a little bit of a fraud now because we're not actually shipping anything at the moment running embedded Linux. The most they'll let me say is soon. You know, we will be shipping something soon. So going back to the then, we developed a product, started a product in 1999 as a DARPA-funded research product called PacBot. PacBot was a mobile, tactical mobile robot. It was running on a Pentium III x86 processor with BlueCat Linux. Never heard of it, but I went back and interviewed some of the veterans at iRobot and learned a bunch of this. Never heard of BlueCat. I'm told that it came up pretty easily. One of the guys there even remembers the big port to get it on to Linux 2.0. There were some core problems and these will show up a couple of times in my talk. Real-time characteristics were hard. The Wi-Fi support was terrible, especially when they were trying to do the ad hoc networking. But they built this robot, we built this robot. In 2001, it went to ground zero to look for survivors in New York City. In the early 2000s, it went to Afghanistan to clear out caves, to look in caves. 2011, this, or one of its successors, went to Fukushima in Japan to... If you remember the tsunami that hit the nuclear reactor there, we were able to send embedded Linux on robots into harm's way and protect people. I'm very excited about that. iRobot has sold off that. Division will talk a little more about that, but I'm still proud to be a part of a company that did that sort of work. And those of you who've worked on embedded Linux have contributed to that. Again, thank you. We developed several more products over 2007 to 2010. First look is a little handheld robot. We can toss. It'll ride itself and go scurrying around to look in for first responders or for bad guy going into a bigger brother for the pack bot. It's called Sugbee, a bigger, bigger brother, warrior or cobra. We had to support multiple hardware platforms with these. We had x86 ARM, PowerPC. We... At that time, kernel support was on separate branches and we were trying to sort through, trying to pull all these together. Some of them... We need the latest kernel for this, but the Wi-Fi driver only works on that. How do we backport that? How do we forwardport that? These are, again, I'm something of a historian here, just reporting some of the problems we ran into. Somewhere along the line, somebody said, gee, we really need an embedded Linux distribution to put this all under one common OS and we'll put an iRobot layer on top of that common OS and have board support packages for our various different products and a common build system. All of this sounds familiar. All of this is stuff that we're running into now. This is stuff that we were learning over, 1999 to 2010. We started with open embedded classic, eventually migrated to Yachto open embedded for these products. Open embedded classic, if you know the history of it, it got to be too successful. It had way too much all funneling into it. They forked off or snapped the line and said, okay, we're gonna go forward with open embedded. iRobot had to do similar things there. Common problems we had with these. In the early days, compiler support was terrible. There were no scripts. Nowadays, you can go find a script, you can just go to Lunaro, grab a compiler. There was no build route. In some cases, we even had to buy cross-compilers and then how do we fold that into our build system? Over and over again, as I talked to folks at iRobot, well, tell me about this product or what do you remember about it? Over and over again, I heard back porting is hard. Drivers are hard. And we had to have this version of Linux for this device driver and that version for that device driver. And boot time took minutes. Okay, you're in the field with this robot. You're gonna go send it into a cave, turn it on, and, okay, let's go have some coffee and wait while the boots, again, people was not going well for them with that for the military applications. Power management, wake-up support was hard. So, again, going back, 1999, 2010, these are some of the issues and problems we ran into with these military robots we were developing. Moving forward a little bit, we've started developing a remote presence robot, 2011, 2015, called Ava. It's the name of our robot. It was designed to be, you know, drive the robot around and have some personality, present the person, present the doctor to a patient. It ran a X86 comic express module, running Ubuntu 1204, bumping up later to 14.04. You know, if you thought bringing up Lucat Linux on the Pentium 3 was easy, this was trivial. It just came out of the box running that. We had a iRobot custom ROS-like robotics layer running on top of all of this. It wasn't ROS. It actually, the development of it, predated ROS. But same idea in concept and approach. We used a LiDAR to map out the area to see where the robot was, where it's going. It was connected to the CPU via Ethernet.  We connected via a UART. So then what? We had the defense group, remote products, or remote presence group. They were 100% Linux. Everything they did was Linux. We had a consumer robotics home group. It was 100% not Linux. Consumer products are hard. We got a Penny's Matter. So the systems we built had minimal flash, minimal RAM, minimal processing power. Try to get the maximum we could for the minimum cost.  The remote presence product, some would argue was not as price sensitive. I wonder why we weren't selling it. Anyway. But consumer products were very, very cost sensitive. All right. 2015. What happened in 2015? We released a new product called the Roomba 980. I'm sorry, I'll be a walking advertisement here, but I'll just tell you a little bit about it. It was our first product with vision-based mapping. We had a camera on this. We have a camera on this. We used that to map the home. It had an LPC3250, which is an ARM9 SOC from NXP. We had a whopping 2 megabytes of flash on this and 16 megabytes of SD RAM. And it's our first Wi-Fi connected robot. We are now, iRobot has now entered the world of IoT. And we're selling this now. It's not running Linux, but this is our first product. The other thing that happened in 2015, that's when I joined iRobot. When I practiced this at iRobot, everybody applauded then. You guys aren't heckling me nearly as much as they were either, so I'm okay with this. I walked in the door and was handed a board that had a SAM A5 processor from then-atmel, now microchip on it. I said, here, Patrick, I want you to take this and get our cleaning application up and running on this. And they said, well, tell me what's on it. Well, it's got a Cortex A5 CPU. It's got 16 megabytes of flash. It's got 128 megabytes of SD RAM and Wi-Fi connected directly, words. They said, oh, great. You guys are running Linux on this, aren't you? And they said, well, no, that's Defense and Remote Presence Group. We're home products. We don't do Linux. I said, well, why not? And, well, Chris tried three and a half years ago to convince folks to run Linux and nothing happened. And then Mark tried a year ago and nothing happened. But if you want to try, you can try. So I said, well, I really think we should be running Linux on this, guys. And I got all my arguments together about portability, about how the kernel has been looked at by so many more eyes than we could ever put on here. The 980 has a custom scheduler on it, a custom OS that has been looked at by a dozen people in the lifetime. Imagine taking our core code and putting on an OS that's been looked at by millions of eyes. Let's find all the bugs in that instead of having a dozen eyes looking at it. So I put all my arguments together, got together in a room with six or eight upper management folks and said, I think we should run Linux on this and everybody around the table said, sure. Well, don't you want to hear my arguments? No, no, we think it's a good idea. All right. Golly. Okay. So over the course, I said, give it a try, Patrick. And the board designer was coming out with a new board sometime in March, so he handed me a board. I looked at my notes on March 3rd. On March 11th, I had a prompt on that board. That was, okay, I've got Linux up and running on this. Sorry, getting ahead of myself on my slides. To get there, I had to go in and customize the bootstrap. Again, Atmel, Microchip supplied bootstrap code. I had to go customize that for our board, tell what peripherals are there, tell about the SD RAM and the Flash, which of course are different than the development board. But I had to go put some custom tweaks to U-boot. And for the kernel, nothing. I just dropped it on and it ran. I'm lying a little bit. I had to tweak the device tree to tell the device. But the core kernel, I didn't have to do anything for. And there were some minor tweaks and patches. You know, okay, a camera driver, we need to adjust this. Or my one line patch to the kernel, I can tell you, dot a line eight. I still remember it. Submitted that to Atmel. They pushed it upstream. I got the email saying, hey. Again, very excited to be part of this and very excited to do this. I went away on vacation over the summer for a week and a half. Came back, I had two days in the office and then was off. I think I was chaperone for a mission trip for our church or something, but I had two days in the office and when I came in, board designer said, oh, here's a new board for you. And two days later, I said, here you go, start testing it. Again, it was just a flash change on that, which really wasn't that big of a change. But this is why I love embedded Linux. I take a, well, our board designer is especially talented. But I take working hardware from Boris. I take working software from Atmel, from the Linux community, from all of you. Put them together, they work, and everybody at iRobot thinks I'm a genius, so you could be doing this too. Wi-Fi took a little bit longer to bring up. There were issues trying to get that. Gee, that kind of sounds like 1999. Wi-Fi is always kind of hard. And there was also some, I didn't realize it at the time. We were running on pre-production silicon. What I do remember is being at Embedded Linux last year in San Francisco, San Diego, and having one of those boards with me and banging my head saying, well, when I tried to clock it up to full speed and it always crashes at this point and got back from ELC and found out, oh, yeah, the new RevB, the new boards all have the RevB processors on. Oh, and it has been running fine since then. Talk a little bit about the application development model that I like to follow that, again, set me up for success in this. Because it wasn't enough just to have Linux up and running on the board. We want to have our vacuum cleaning application, our mapping application running on top of Linux. Are there any managers in the audience? Can you just plug your ears for a second? Well, the secret behind Embedded Linux is that it's no different than desktop Linux. But don't tell your managers that because we should still command a premium for our expertise here. So my approach to developing applications in Embedded Linux is I get them working on the desktop first. I use the same Video for Linux driver, the same USB stack, the same network stack. Get it all working there. Show that it basically works. You know, there might be things with spy or I squared C that I can't really prototype on the desktop. I don't have a spy port on my laptop. But I can stub those out, work around those, but get the basic functionality up and running. Show that that works. What I've done a couple of times, you can do this with Beaglebone or with a Raspberry Pi. I did it with an Invidia Tegra board. If I have a target running a Ubuntu or something, I can just compile and run it on the target. Again, if I have something already running a Ubuntu or a Debian on it, here I'll recite some more code for you. git clone dot slash configure make. And my application was running natively on the target. You need some pieces there, but it works. Then you can figure out the I squared C and the spy bus that you need there. If you've got the luxury to do that, you don't always have the luxury to do that. So you can just go to cross-compiling for the target. There you've got, you know, Buildroot, Yachto, Lenaro, 2016, 2017 now. There's a lot more in place to make this easy and to make you successful. Debugging, you know, I debug on my desktop. I've got my full GDB, whatever GUI interface I want to use for that on the target. All right, I'll just fire it up in GDB server. Although hopefully by then, I'm not trying to step through code anymore. I've got it all worked working, but I can use that. If you want a network tier, you can use USB to network tier device. I've even used PPP and Slip, connected over a serial port to my laptop and got my, you know, on a device I was doing once that had no network connectivity. One of the things I'm finding, you know, one of the things that makes us look, you know, able to run Linux on these embedded processors is the whole cell phone market and how much that's driving down prices. Cell phones don't tend to need a whole lot of UArts, which starts to give me a little angst as I look at, okay, we need to hook up our mobility board. We need to hook up our special telemetry sensor. We also need to hook up Bluetooth. We need to hook up the...how many UArts? Well, we're gonna have to give up on the boot console. No! I get all panicky. Again, some devices are better supported. They have more UArts, but, you know, we'll see. I fight with the hardware designers. I may not have a choice in winning that battle right now, and I'll look to you out here if you have any suggestions. I'm looking a little bit at Android Debug Bridge. Maybe I can get away with just, again, okay, it's networking over USB. Maybe I get enough of a console with that. I'll find out. Here, I keep mentioning Atmel and my microchip, but I do want to publicly praise them for their support for the SAM A5, their support for Linux. I will not mention other manufacturers that I'm grumpy about, but I will publicly call out Atmel and microchip, but all the manufacturers maintain Linux kernels for their devices and Yachto distributions as well. Microchip works hard to get their changes back into the mainline. Microchip works hard to get their Yachto build. You know, just go check out your standard Yachto distribution and compile it for your chip. Buildroot just worked out of the box with them for them. I have worked with a couple of devices, you know, the last year where the board support package that came with it said, go download our version of Yachto and build it. Okay, that's nice. I can get something up and running, but I want to be able to plug into my iRobot version. So any chip manufacturers out there just asking, can you get your stuff mainlined, please?  It benefits the embedded development community, but it'll also benefit you two years from now, three years, five years from now. So go ahead and get it mainlined. Going forward, where are we going with all of this? More cores, more memory, more flash, more SD RAM. Why? Because we're going to be putting more and more off-the-shelf software on the robots. I don't know what that is yet. You know, maybe... And I don't know where all robots, home robotics is going, but imagine somebody saying someday, golly, wouldn't it be nice if when somebody got home, you know, somebody releases a home butler robot that greets you as you get home and somebody at iRobot says, golly, we could have our vacuum cleaners do that. All we need to do is put open CV on there and have it do facial recognition and play a hello, Patrick, when you walk in the door. Maybe somebody will want that. Maybe we'll want to put Amazon Echo or Android Things. All of these, all of these... I just went to a talk, actually, Android Things. You know, they went to a talk this morning. They said, oh, yeah, we only need 500 megabytes to deploy Android Things. Okay, I started off with 16 megabytes. Well, I started off with two and we went to 16 and now our hardware designer is grumpy when the folks come to him and say, oh, well, now we need 128 or 256 megabytes. But, you know, the thing that's made us successful so far at iRobot and where we're going with embedded Linux is use as much off the shelf as we can and a lot of these off-the-shelf stacks just require more memory, more flash. I'm not sure why I ended up with this part on the slide, but I do want to talk to this about this. What happens when an NDA meets a GPL? You know, I had a problem issue. We have a sensor from OmniVision on our robot that I have a datasheet that I can only review, that I received under NDA. And I want to go modify the OmniVision driver in the kernel because we want to support QVGA and the one that's in there only supports VGA. How do I deal with that? And I'll tell you what I did. And after the talk, if you have any suggestions for better ways to handle it, I'll tell you what I wanted to do. I'll start with that. I wanted to go to OmniVision and say, I want to release these changes to support QVGA back to the open-source community. Can you please give me permission to do that? I could not find anybody to talk to at OmniVision who could answer that. Give me a yes, you can do that. So what I did instead is I put together a patch set that said, well, if you happen to have register settings from some place to configure it, and if you happen to know how to configure this device for QVGA, then you can use those settings however you got them. That, I feel, I can publish. I submitted to App Mail. They came back and said, go clean it up. It's on my list to go clean up. But that sort of thing can be published.  I'm open to other ideas if other folks have ideas of how to handle that. It is going to continue to be an issue going forward. I am passionate about open-source. I'm passionate about the GPL. If we use it, we should be contributing back. So, and I push for that. And I don't actually get any pushback at all that I robot, but it is something that I keep in the forefront of my mind. We're here at IoT. Keep one of the three most important things about IoT, security, security, security. How can I deploy my vacuum cleaner-based robot and keep it secure enough to prevent competitors from cloning it? There are three things that I worry about. How do I keep competitors from cloning it? How do I keep it from being used as a platform to launch an October 2016 DDoS attack? I don't want... Imagine we sell, I hope we sell, millions of these robots running embedded Linux. I don't want them used to launch a DDoS attack or any other attack. And I don't want them to be used. I don't want somebody to be able to break in and compromise our cloud connection from those robots. So, these are things that I think about. I worry about how do we protect... I'm not alone at iRobot doing this where I am. And I'm not alone here, but my dent is a little bit different. How do I do protect all of that and still enable our robots to be used for STEM activities? iRobot is passionate about STEM, science, technology, engineering, and math. We have two full-time employees dedicated to STEM outreach at iRobot. All employees there have two days a year that we are encouraged, given two days a year, to use for STEM activities. Our robots are available for STEM activities. If I lock down this robot so much that I can't use it for a STEM activity that goes against the iRobot, one of our core values at the company, but I also look out at all of you.   And I want to enable that while still protecting against cloning, while still protecting against launching attacks. If you do that, if you take it home and put your own Linux on it, I want you to be able to do that. Okay, you'll void the warranty. You have to understand that. You'll give up your access to the cloud if you do that, or maybe not. How do we sort through that? But I still want to enable that, and then I want you to take that and bring it to your high schools and show it off and say, hey, look what you guys can be doing. So I, yeah. Sorry, I just realized I've been standing on a soapbox. I should climb back down. But STEM is something I'm passionate about. I love the talk yesterday. I don't know where he is if he's here or not, but I did a fabulous job talking about STEM and robotics here at using Linux for STEM and robotics in high school. Fabulous job. Thank you. I had my gratuitous Star Wars reference. Now I'm going to give you a gratuitous robot video to see if I can start this from here. So that was not my house. My house doesn't look anywhere near that clean. Even after the Roombas run around. I wish I could say Embedded Linux was used to do all of that. That's with our existing product or existing non-Linux base. The map you saw getting created, that was Linux tools being run to that. The data, the telemetry we got off the robot was from a gum stick. So there was some Embedded Linux used in that, but the product itself. But I can tell you where we're going is products going forward will have some form of Embedded Linux in them. And I've been excited to have been a part of that. You know, somehow, again, Chris joined five years ago, said we should do this, nobody, and then Mark joined, we should do this, no, and then I came in and I think enough, there was enough of an avalanche that things got going. But that's about it for my talk. If you have any questions, I do want to thank you all for being here. We've got about 15 minutes. I put this talk together. I submitted this idea for this talk and I said, I thought it would be a good idea for a talk and the organizers apparently thought so too and they said it was accepted. And then I sat down and put my slides together and I said, oh dear, how am I going to get this to stretch out to 50 minutes? So please ask questions or if not, then we'll get our break earlier. Yes, Mike. The question is have we changed the random search mechanism that the Roombas used to use? The answer is with our camera-enabled high-end robots, yes, we have. By creating the map, the robots now know where they have been and can go back and clean up, you know, do a systematic cleaning of a room. Those of you who don't have Roombas or haven't watched them run, the original Roomba, the lower-end models do just bounce around randomly for, and we have a fancy I-Adapt-2 algorithm. We tell all the marketing folks who run, but it really is, just bounce around randomly. If you do that long enough, you'll hit all of the floor. But with the newer camera-enabled robots, we can clean systematically. So, yes, we have changed that. Go out and buy one, please. Or, yeah, I shouldn't say this, but wait until we develop one with embedded Linux and then buy it. Yes, so this is a two-part question. One is when can we expect to see a Linux-based robot released and part two is when it is released, can we get to a shell prompt on it? The answer they will allow me to say for part one is soon. I can't give you any other dates than that. And the answer for part two is it will not be easy to get to a shell prompt, but what is it you want to do with that? If you've had a Roomba before and you've strapped a Raspberry Pi on top and you click the UART from there into the little SCI port, serial communications port on the top, and we're saying, well, now new robots coming out are going to have effectively that Raspberry Pi embedded in them. What you really want to do is get to that, perhaps via Wi-Fi. So, the two things I'm pushing for and working on, I want you to be able to buy that.  We'll see how close we come to that dream, but I do want to be able to do that. But even not, if you can speak to it over MQTT and command it to do things, for our commitment to STEM, we want robots that fourth graders can use to drive around using Scratch, all the way up to robots that colleges can use for research to drive around. So, there's a wide range of ways we can solve that problem. My own personal bent is, yeah, I want you to be able to put your own Linux on it. Getting to the console port is always going to be tough. Just trying the space, how do you even get something in there, special connector? But if you can get to it over Wi-Fi and SSH into it, if you can put your own Linux on there and SSH, maybe that's good enough if you can speak MQTT to it from your phone, if you can speak BLE. So, that's the best answer I can give right now. It is something I'm passionate about and want to be able to promote, though. Yes. I believe the question was, has my robot ever harmed a human being or allowed a human being to come to harm? Our newer robots, we were putting into them a safety micro. And I said, really, for vacuum clean, I can understand for something like a drone, but why would you need a safety micro? And if the answer is, I'm running around on the second floor of a building and I come to a ledge, I want to be able to stop that robot before it goes off the ledge and falls on somebody. I'm not sure how Asimov would have prevented one of his robots from falling off the edge of a building and landing on somebody. We do the best we could do. Yes. So the question is, has iRobot considered indirect harm to humans and the privacy implications of having a robot with a camera running around? The answer is categorically yes. We have thought about that and thought about that internally and argued back and forth. I can say we've thought about it. Some of the arguments are, well, people are buying cameras and putting them in their baby's rooms anyways. I'm not sure... If you're buying one of these, if I looked at a box, does the box even say... I hope the box has a camera. I use a camera on it. I know for the 980s we're selling right now, we made it extremely difficult even for ourselves to get images off of them, which as a developer is something of a pain. But yes, we have thought about that. And his comment was, one of the things that Dell has looked at for enabling people to put their own Linux on their devices is to follow the Chromebook example. I will certainly look at that. Some of the things I've thought about... Our kernel, again, our kernel is largely untouched and the small number of patches that are into it, I'm working to get upstreamed. So in terms of satisfying the legality of GPL, I don't have problems with that. But I want the spirit of STEM and maker community to be able to allow you to be able to put your own Linux on there. Some of the things we've looked at is, well, if we boot up and we find an iRobot signed authenticated image, then we will make the encrypted partitions containing our certificates and whatever else we need available. If we don't find a signed authenticated image, we'll still boot it. You just don't have access to the authentication credentials you need in order to get into the cloud. For me, I want to prevent... I don't want you to be able to deploy your own Linux on it wirelessly. I don't want you to deploy anything on it wirelessly. But if you spent the money on the robot and you have physical access to it, I want to make sure there's a way that you can plug into it and put your own code onto it. Again, while protecting against our competitors from cloning the device, it's a thorny problem, but how do we... These are things I like to think about when I'm commuting back and forth and argue about once I get to work. Yes. Yes. Oh, sorry. The question was, is iRobot exploring any other use cases for this technology, particularly the mapping algorithm, and the answer they will allow me to say is yes. I can't go into much more than that, but iRobot has a commitment. We divested ourselves of the defense business. We shut down the remote presence business. We are solely focused on consumer robotics as a company. This is our laser focus now. And that's more than just vacuum cleaners. The question is, how many cats can ride on a Roomba? I have to direct you to the internet for that one. I have not conducted a study myself. I know that we have three cats at home, none of them are interested in riding on my Roomba. I don't understand that. So the question is, do we have a poop detector on our vacuum cleaners? The answer is, I actually don't know what we do about it. I've heard about that problem before. I can tell you the group I work with at iRobot is an advanced forward-looking group that we're looking at exploring sensors for particular things. If you have an idea on that, we'd love to take your technology and incorporate it into our robots because it will give us a competitive advantage. Come talk to me afterwards if you have a solution, please. Alright, I think we're done. I managed to stretch this out almost 45 minutes, which is 15 minutes longer than I thought I would. Thank you very much for your time. I'm happy to chat. This is exciting stuff. Thank you for the efforts that all of you have put into embedded Linux.


Hey everybody, welcome back to Magic Brothodoxy. My name is David, and this is a deck review. Hey, today we're going to look at the Carpe Noctem deck from Chris Ramsey, Open Jones, and Illusionist.com. What is Carpe Noctem? Carpe Noctem is Seize the Night. It's Latin for Seize the Night. This is Chris Ramsey's sophomore debut from his previous Memento Mori deck that he also released with Illusionist.com. The theme behind this, Carpe Noctem is a celebration of a flower that blooms at night. So pretty much doesn't bloom for anybody. Nobody sees it. So it's inspired by the night blooming Sirius. It's one of the strangest and most beautiful plants in the desert. The Carpe Noctem deck is supposed to unveil the beauty of that flower, and it's surrounded by darkness. So once per year on a warm midsummer's night, this unassuming flower blossoms with exquisite beauty, and then wilts away with the morning sun. So the tuckcase on this is all kind of a gloss black, and you can see it wraps all the way around the tuckcase, as well as the flower. The flower itself is embossed, and you can see it only has just a few colors there, the yellow, the purple, and the like soft pink. The bottom of the tuckcase just simply has some ad copy about Illusionist. This side says Carpe Noctem, but you can barely see it. It's in an embossed. The top is completely blank. The tuck flap says Chris Ramsey at Open Jones, and also on the backside there's a little emboss of an all-seeing eye in a triangle. That is pretty much it for the tuckcase. Let's take a look at these cards. These cards come from the United States Playing Card Company, and they come on their retail stock. They do have a modern cut and air cushion embossed, and if you'd like to learn more about stock, cut, or finish, you can click the link below in the description. All right, so people always ask how these cards feel, how they handle. I can't really tell you how they handle because that's a subjective opinion, but I can tell you how thick they are. When I measure 10 cards with a caliper, it comes out to 2.95. Now, that is kind of interesting because previously, Memento Mori was a 2.79, and so the crush stock definitely feels very thin. Coming in at 2.95, this does not feel like the crush stock. So if you're expecting the same type of stock as Memento Mori, you're not going to get it. So these feel more like the Green Gator backs or the male chimp deck or the royal pulp deck. The back design on this looks like it was dipped in black ink. You have a nice big thick white poker border, and then you have that night-blooming Sirius as a mirrored image in both corners. Now, some people have pointed out that this is not a true two-way back design. There is a little bit of a color discrepancy between the top flower and the bottom. I haven't really heard if it was intentional or not, but it does make for a good way to do a magic trick with one-way back design. With this deck, you're going to get two original jokers. The fronts are fully black, so it's a little bit of a difference between the white borders on the other side. It is a floating moth against a field of blackness, and it does say Carpe Noctum, and each joker has its own original card reveal. With this deck, you're also going to get an ad card that talks a little bit about the Carpe Noctum deck and the theme behind it, and on the back side, there's a little bit of copy about the night-blooming Sirius. Your Ace of Spades is very simple. It says Carpe at the top, Noctum at the bottom. There's a large exploded pip there in the center with the night-blooming Sirius in the center of that. Also with this deck, you're going to get one gaff card. It's a morphing card that's transitioning between a four of spades and a queen of hearts. Another one of the hidden gems within this deck, the King of Spades has a card reveal in his sword. With this deck, you're also going to get completely standard quartz. So between the court cards and Pips and Indices, all your face cards are going to be completely recognizable and perfect for gameplay as well as magic. All right, so that is my review for the Carpe Noctum deck from Chris Ramsey, OpenJones and Illusionist.com. As always, I want to thank RarePlayingCards.com for allowing me to have this deck so that I could do the review for you. And if you want to purchase this deck for yourself, you can find it at RarePlayingCards.com in the link below. Thanks, bye.


ốc Secs considered as very useless for some reasons as it is confirmed that we reached to Amor Biotiyar do not forget to like, subscribe and share our channel


Hello, and welcome to the Ed Hodl show presented by Buffalo Wildlands. I'm Greg Royce, showed by Stevenson Football Coach Ed Hodl. Coach, you were back on the road last week.  It was nice, you know, it was physical football game. We expected that going in and our guys did a nice job responding. I think we were able to execute the game plan and it became more and more evident as we went through the course of the game. Guys responding well to adjustments, you know, really a good overall effort getting the two block punts, getting some explosive plays on teams, you know, holding, you know, a pretty formidable running game, you know, to run about 100 yards was certainly significant for us. And then obviously we were able to move the ball offensively, it was good to see. Yeah, I guess it was the same part that when you have successes, the balance that you have both defensively and offensively, you're not relying like, oh, we've got to have the defensively minimum or we've got to have the offensive score 50 points in order to win. Like there's that nice balance, I think. Like you said, with Special Team Suit coming in this week, we can make it a couple of big plays as well. It's nice and I think that's really kind of who we are as a program now, which is really, really good. It's not, you know, you look at our running back situation, you look at the receiving core, you look at the distribution of tackles on the defensive side.  And I think that's been a big emphasis of ours throughout the course of the year. And it's nice to see it kind of playing out, you know, even on the stat sheet. And it's leading to wins, which is obviously the most important statistic. Absolutely. On the offensive side, Chas Liles last couple of weeks, he's had a couple of big games offensively, you know, many of those big three seniors. But Chas, the last couple of weeks, you know, with the yardage and some of the big plays that him and Ryan have been able to hook up with. Yeah, it's no surprise with Chas. I mean, his work ethic is something that is unparalleled. You know, he comes out to practice and, you know, he's 100 miles an hour from the first rep to the last rep. And, you know, very methodical, very cerebral, understands what we're trying to do. Couple that with his effort and his willingness to give 110% on every play is quite extraordinary. Yeah, absolutely. And like you said, it's not like teams can necessarily just key on him, because if they do, you've got a couple other guys that can hurt you and as well as your running game. Yeah, I'm excited that we don't have to defend our offense, I can tell you that. No, we like being multiple. It's something that I know that we emphasize.   And so the distribution of the football is something that we think, you know, helps us be successful. Yeah, absolutely. That's 15 years of this week. And we talked a little bit last week, played meaningful football games in November. And certainly this is a meaningful football game in November. You head up to Wilkes. Time for second in the conference right now.  Sure, they're all big this time of year. You know, for us, it's, again, it's the focus on being the best football team that we can be. You know, I'm excited to get back on the road again.  So, you know, whether we're here, whether we're there, it really doesn't matter. We've got to go out and put our best football on film and, you know, hopefully be able to be successful. Yeah, absolutely. All right, coach, you're the best of luck on the road this week and I will chat next week. Thanks, Craig. All right, for Ed Hoddle, I'm Greg Royce. This has been the Ed Hoddle Show.


Betchkin was drunk for like a whole summer Well, there he is dude Alex Ovechkin high-gloss seven to ten autograph Let's go baby. That's you're looking for with the capitals. Yeah, exactly We'll probably go down as the NHL's all-time leading goal scorer. Oh, yeah when it's all said and done monster OV Let's go


This is the model that we're going to be working with in this lab, and it's similar to one you've seen before that combines a global carbon cycle with a global climate model. It includes components that calculate our energy needs and our sources of energy, which then relate to the carbon emissions that affect the climate. It also monitors the economics of all these changes to our climate and energy. This one also includes some geoengineering options that I'll explain in a little bit. So over here, there are a lot of controls that are kind of color coded according to the different things that they represent. So green here represents conservation of energy, the purple or blue represents renewable energy. The red down here relates to one of the geoengineering schemes, which is the direct carbon removal from the atmosphere. And the orange down here deals with the other geoengineering scheme, which is the injection of sulphate air sauce into the stratosphere to block sunlight. So let me just show you a couple of things about this. So you open the model and you run it, and it calculates this all out over a couple of hundred years, and this shows the global temperature change that results. And here we haven't really done anything to increase conservation renewables, and the geoengineering switches are off. So this is kind of the do nothing scenario, and we have a very high temperature rise by the end of this time here, six and a half degrees. So now we could say of course, well, what if we conserve energy? So this number here is the percent of our energy that we reduce by conservation methods, and this is the growth rate of that. So this is five percent increase per year, which is pretty good. So if we run this and see what happens, and compare it with the do nothing scenario, and you see it lowers the temperature, but it's still unacceptably high. And so you could say, well, what if we increase our reliance on renewable energy? Let's bring this up to, say, 75%. And we run that, and we see that this does a little bit better. But still by the end of this, like we're up at 3.6 degrees global temperature rise, which is really quite alarming. And by the year 2000, we're 2100, rather, we're above that two degree limit that we sort of agree upon as the upper limit in the Paris Climate Accords. So now we've added here some geoengineering options, and these are kind of like, if we just can't manage our carbon emissions through conservation and switch to renewables, we might want to investigate some of these to help us prevent a climate disaster. And so I'm going to restore the renewables to where it was before. I'll just turn this on. So now this is going to activate the direct removal of carbon from the atmosphere, and then the burial and sequestration of that carbon underground. So here's the time at which it starts 2030. And here you pick a target atmospheric CO2 concentration. So here I've got 400, this is raised that to 450 here. And this is the rate of cost decline of that process, which is initially fairly expensive. And this represents how quickly our capability to do this grows. And this gives us the initial amount of carbon that we can withdraw from the atmosphere in one year at the very start. So this is pretty generous because we can't really come close to doing one gigaton at the present time. But things are changing rapidly in this field. So let's see what happens here. And we run this and we see here's our results. And this brings us down, keeps us below two degrees for a very long time. So that is a fairly effective means of keeping our climate under control. You switch on some of the other pages, you'll see that this is in blue, the CO2 concentration of the atmosphere rises. And then we start to get it in control. And then we've brought it under control here for it's close to 450. It's a little bit above until this point in time in which it drops down dramatically. It drops down dramatically there just because we run out of fossil fuels. And so we're no longer able to emit any to the atmosphere at this point in time. So 21, 97 or 98, something like that. So that's the direct removal of carbon. Another option is sulfate aerosol geoengineering. And we turn that on. And this is where we inject sulfate aerosols, these little tiny particles into the stratosphere. They block some sunlight. And so here's the starting time for this process. And here's the targeted temperature change that we're going to try to control to. So this will try to keep the temperature change to two degrees or less. And this is the cost decline rate. This is zero right now, kind of assuming that, you know, this is not such a technologically tricky process. And probably we're not going to see huge advances in the, in the sort of ability to do this per dollar. So I've got that at zero initially. Well, let's just run this and see what happens. You run the model and there you see this does a very good job of keeping it right at two degrees through this whole time. Well, all of these changes have economic consequences. And some of those you can see on some of the other graphs here. Let's see this one is here's the total cost per person per capita. That is in terms of thousands of dollars per year. And those last two that we ran, they both end up costing something like about $9,000 per person per year by the end of it. And that's to pay for all of our energy supply and all the climate damages that are associated with the temperature change. So this is just a brief introduction to the model. You can restore everything to the sort of an initial by clicking those two buttons. And so we're going to do a series of experiments with this model to, to make some, some sort of assessments about what is the best thing from the standpoint of the climate and also the economy in terms of getting us to a future that, that includes a tolerable level of global warming.


Hi everyone, Joe for Jasper's casebreaks.com coming at you with 2021 wild card, map, black football, one box, random team, random player, number three, 18 on card, auto per box, there are three per mini box, there's six mini boxes inside a master box right there. Everything ships, 22 spots, a very small checklist right here. Good luck to this group of people, we're going to assign you a random player. There's all the players right there, let's roll it, let's randomize it, one and a five, six times for names and players, one, two, three, four, five, and six. That will down to Robert, one and a five, six times for the players, one, two, three, four, five, and six in final time. After six, we've got Eric Stokes down to Justin Fields, all right, Will with Eric Stokes, Michael Robinson, Trevor Lawrence, Gordon with Najee Harris, Will, Zach Wilson, Patrick Surtain, Matt Jones, Travis Etienne, Kyle Pitts, that's a good group of players there, Michael Parsons for Robert, Matthew Slade with Kyle Trask, Will with Jalen Waddle, Rex with Penae Sewell, Last Spot Mojo, Will with Rashad Bayman, Caleb Farley, Gordon with Quitty Pei, Robert with Greg Housseau, Michael with Trey Lance, Will with Givante Williams, Terrence Marshall Jr. for Matthew, and Robert with the rest, JC Horne, Devonta Smith, and Justin Fields. Let's sort by player name right here, box that up right there, okay, and while you're considering trades, here are the final two boxes of the case, remember we marked those with X's so we know they're from the same case. Let's select a die out of here, select that one, we'll go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3 for the top box, 4, 5, 6 for the bottom box, and it's 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, we'll save this for the last break, which is break 4, which is already in the store. Looks like no trades, not even a whisper of a trade, Michael Robinson is happy with his draw, let's see if the box cooperates at this point. Alright, TWC trade window closed, let's print and rip. Alright, good luck everybody, thanks everyone for making this happen. The final box is already in the store, jaspys.com, jaspyscasebreaks.com, so be sure to check that out, pretty cool box design and everything too, got these fire boxes right here too. We'll do the premiere edition black boxes first, then we'll finish with the fire boxes. Alright, there's Kyle Pitts, to 349, Michael Parsons to 20, and Kyle Trask to 349, and your autographs, first one is Eric Stokes, 30 out of 30 silver ink autographs for Will Driggers, where there's a Will, there's a way. Patrick Sertain, the second gold ink autograph, that is for Will as well, nice low number, 7 out of 10 on this one, and this is pretty unique part of this set, there's their actual thumbprint, 7 out of 25 and their autograph, gold ink auto, and that's Micah Parsons for Robert Flores. Oh, and that's it, wild card, yeah some people are mentioning that they remember the old school wild card, yeah, looks like they kicked it up a few notches. Alright, Caleb Farley to 349, Eric Stokes to 50, and JC Horne to 349, and your autos, we've got JC Horne, silver ink autograph, 28 out of 30, that'll be for Robert, and we've got Penae Soule, gold ink autograph going to Rex, 60% of the time, last spot Mojo hits 100% of the time, and that's 33 out of 40, elite level offensive linemen, and the thumbprint is another Micah Parsons, 20 out of 30, Robert Flores once again, that's the sounds of Charlotte, Charlotte Horne's in the Pacers on in the background, Pacers have 8255, Horne's just haven't really gotten it together, I had a little financial investment in the Horne's, looks like it's not gonna happen for them tonight. Your base cards, we got Kyle Tras to 349, Caleb Farley to 50, and a three out of seven, Trey Lance for Michael Robinson, here's to you Michael Robinson, dee dee dee dee dee dee dee dee dee, nice low number there, and your autos, first auto is JC Horne, silver ink auto 13 out of 35, Robert with the JC Horne, we've got a Greg Rousseau autograph, Greg Rousseau going to Robert Flores, one out of 50, some flames out there, must mean he indicated he's running really fast, we got Kyle Trask, thumbprint, and silver ink auto five out of 30, Matthew Slade with the Trask, all right next one, then we'll go to those red boxes, all right we got a Trevor Lawrence out here 349, Jaylen Waddle, and Justin Fields to 25, so Justin Fields will be for Robert Flores, and the Trevor Lawrence, Michael Robinson with the 269 out of 349, Trevor Lawrence card, a lot of value in these QBs obviously, and your hits, your autographs, we got Quitty Pay 39 out of 50, silver ink autograph for Gordon, not charlotte's knife, you got Eric Stokes silver ink autograph for Will, four out of 40, and here is Trey Lance, thumbprint and silver ink autograph 35 out of 40, Michael Robinson with the Trey Lance, there you go Michael, all right, let's get a hand on those fireboxes, oh hot, hot those fireboxes, got some heat to them, all right there's Patrick Sartain to 75, Patrick Sartain to 20, and a Trevor Lawrence 11 out of 20, it's pretty sharp, going to Michael Robinson, I don't know what that five is right there, but there's the five, there's a Trevor Lawrence, nice foil pattern, very nice, next up is Mack Jones, gold ink autograph three out of three, that's some fire right there, Will with the Mack Jones and the train whistle, nice, all aboard the Big Hit Express, we got a Trey Lance gold ink autograph, another one for Michael, one out of 12, looks like he's actually on fire at this point, firebox, and another one we've got quitty pay, silver ink autograph 19 out of 35, then that is for Gordon Phillips, hard to catch the number right there in this slide, oh okay, so town cards saying the old wild cards used to have 520, 510, 25100 and a thousand numbers on their cards, the thousands used to be the hardest to find, so this must indicate some level of short printedness right here, interesting, we also give you a number right here too, but maybe a little throwback to the past there, all right nice, final firebox, Rashad Bateman to 175, 10 out of 12, Travis Etienne and there's a quitty pay to 175, and your final autos, good luck, first one is Rashad Bateman, 10 out of 25, numbers in the bottom right hand corner there, Rashad going to Will, Jalen Waddle, gold ink autograph, nice Jalen Waddle, for Will, no I cannot imagine signing almost 10,000 cards, 13 out of 18, Jalen Waddle, once again, for Will, and the last one is a thumb print and an autograph and it's Panay Sewell, 16 out of 18, got a couple different colors in there Rex, and a golden autograph for this elite level, everyone says, elite level offensive lineman, the Rex with last bottom mojo gets the very last card, there you go ladies and gentlemen I'm Joe for jaspyscasebrakes.com, thanks for getting into all this wild car, we've got one more box left if you're watching live and I'll break that hopefully with you later tonight, bye-bye


Hi again, Pedro Diaz here. Today's pillar six, understanding complexity. I was chatting about life and medicine with an experienced doctor recently and he looked at me intently and said, you know what, Pedro? Wherever there is a human being, there's a variable. We never have any certainty anything can happen. He was talking about medicine specifically, but doesn't this also apply to any other area of life? Organizations need to understand this if they are to respond appropriately to mental health problems. How do they do that? When an organization makes informed responses as opposed to knee jerks, simplistic actions, it demonstrates the principle of understanding complexity. People are complex, that much is obvious, but it's depressing how quickly people are to label someone who is different to them. My wife loves structure, a room, a computer desk, somewhere to focus and crank stuff out. To me, just talking about it, give me a laptop at the beach anytime or a coffee shop and then my mind starts flowing, I'm free, I can do things. To me, I couldn't imagine putting someone at a desk and asking them to sit there for eight hours a day. Surely that would be torture or there must be incredibly dull and lacking creativity. Well, to someone like me wanting to take a laptop to the beach looks like some sort of weird learning disorder, an ADD thing, lack of commitment, or simply slacking off. And when people don't understand each other's styles, sometimes they think we'd better put some controls in place to make sure they work and act how I think they should. That controls rankles and it forces the person to perform from a position of weakness, not in a way that amplifies their talents. This is where we need to examine ourselves and say, are we unfairly judging someone because they're different? Is there a mental health disorder here or a hidden killer talent? Remember the canary, what a first instance may look like a weakness, may in fact be a strain of strength. We're starting to see organizations respond to the mental health challenges in our places. You can see it in initiatives designed to build awareness. Building awareness is a good first step, but what happens when you ask someone, are you okay? And the answer is no. Awareness is powerful, but without knowing what to do next, it's next to useless, isn't it? I've often reflected on the role of the manager being to bring certainty and structure to unstructured situations. That's a tough job. We are surrounded by unstructured situations. It's called life. I think it was John Lennon that said, life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans. We can expect things to go exactly to plan and when things don't go to plan, managers like to have a process for figuring out what's wrong and how to fix it. That's smart. Unfortunately, people are incredibly complex. They have different goals and values, different work styles and preferences, different belief structures, and events affect them differently. There is no manual for fixing a mental health problem. Only a range of approaches you can try, some of which seem to work better than others. Would you believe the professionals still disagree about what a mental disorder even is? They argue amongst themselves and they write long impressive papers about it, but in the end, there isn't a consensus. The point I'm trying to make is that for a manager, there isn't much to be gained by being able to diagnose a mental disorder and prescribe a treatment plan. It's not your job to do so, but by recognizing that people and situations are complex, taking a step back and coming at the problem with an inquiring mind and an intention to help the individual, you can achieve a lot. And that's it for now. I hope you have enjoyed this pillar. Talk soon and have a mentally healthy day.


Welcome to our interview show in which we interview LGBTQ guests who are important contributors to our community. We want to acknowledge that all things LGBTQ is produced at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which is unceded Indigenous land. Enjoy the show. Hi everybody. I'm here with two friends of the show, John Kalecki and Donna Ann McAdams. They're making return visits and Donna came nine months ago and John has come several times, most recently five months ago, and they've been up to a lot since we talked last. So I'd like to, if I may, tell you, just review their bios, their short bios because they do much more than a simple bio would indicate. And then we'll talk a little about Donna's show that's been touring the state for Formative X and John's activities as a curator. So let's start with John Kalecki, who is currently a legislator in the Vermont House of Representatives. Previously he served as Executive Director of the Flynn Center for the Performing Arts, Program Officer for Arts and Culture for the San Francisco Foundation, Executive Director of the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, and Curator of Performing Arts for the Walker Arts Center. Other past positions include Program Officer at the Pew Charitable Trusts, General Manager of PepsiCo Summer Fair, and Managing Director of the Trisha Brown and Laura Dean Dance Companies. His recent Vimeo-Elegy's will appear on Vermont PBS on April 20th at 9 p.m., so I encourage you to tune in and see that it's a very moving Vimeo. The first time I cried all through it, the second time I didn't and appreciated the art. Thank you. Donna McAdams, another luminary on the show. Donna was born in Queens in 1954, you're younger than I am, and you grew up in a town that interviewers have trouble pronouncing Lake Run Kokoma. Well Kokoma, close enough. Okay, you studied photography at the San Francisco Art Institute, got an MFA in Visual Arts from Rutgers, and a BA in Cultural Anthropology from Empire State College. A little more about Donna since 1983. McAdams has been, well let me just speak in the second person. You've been committed to bringing cameras and photography into marginalized and underserved communities. You've built community dark rooms and taught photography inside New York City homeless shelters, and day programs for people living with severe mental illness. You've also taken photographs and worked on the back stretch of a thoroughbred racetrack and inside a small farming community in West Virginia. In 2010, you collaborated with Maurice Sendek and Lynn Copernera to establish the Sendek Fellowship, a residency program for people who tell stories with illustration. Donna lives on a goat dairy farm in southwestern Vermont, Sandhurst. Sandgate. I want to come and visit Sandgate and meet the goats. Okay, can you speak up a little? Yes, come milk a goat. All right, you have five now? Oh, Donna has a lot more than that. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay, I have 11 goats, adult goats, I have seven goats in milk, and I have 13 babies on the ground, 10 bucklings, and three dolelings. Very impressive. 13, yes.  And they all need They what? We're the smallest licensed, we're the smallest licensed dairy in the state of Vermont, they say. Well, sounds big to me. Let's start with John, if I may. One of his many identical fires is as a curator, and you curated Donna's exhibit, of course. Tell me, what does a curator do? Well, over my career, I've worked at the Walker Art Center and the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, and we had galleries there. And so, you know, I did some curation in both of those institutions, as well as at the Flynn Center, we had a gallery. And so for five years, I did the curating of shows, about every two months, so about six shows a year. And you know, a curator picks the artists, you sort of pick the themes if it's a group show, you select the work, you really think about what's a way to frame work, about an artist, about a theme, about a time. And I encountered Donna's work, but we've known each other for 40 years. But since I moved to Vermont in 2010, she did a great show with the Vermont Pope Life Center, a Tales from the Backstretch, I think is what it was called. And we had that at the Flynn Center. And then I had a group show called Animal Power. And I asked Donna, did she have anything, because she loves working animals, you know, whether it's horses at the racetrack. And she had just, so she had gone into Green Mountain College in Pultney, when they had a pair of oxen working oxen. And one of them had gotten injured, and they were going to have to put the oxen down. And there's a lot of issues about that. So Donna of course went up to the college to kind of, to capture the moment. But in pure Donna's fashion, she goes into the field with these huge oxen. And she did this beautiful diptych. So I used that in the Animal Power show that I had put together.   And it's really important. And I would like to see if I could, I'm going to be retiring from the Flynn. I'd like to put together a retrospective show of yours and to see if anyone would be interested in Vermont.  You know, there they are living in Sandgate, Vermont with 250 people. And no one knows about her. And in New York, I mean, just in May, PS 122 is going to be having its 40th anniversary. And they're honoring Donna because she was their house photographer for 23 years. And so I felt like we have one of the most important photographers living in social documentary alive here in Vermont. And people don't know her. So that began the journey of the show three years ago. And it's been such a pleasure to work with my friend, Donna Ann McAllums, because we share an aesthetic, we share a politics, and we share so much life history together. I mean, we were both, we didn't know each other then we were both living in San Francisco tonight, Harvey Muckles assassinated. And so to land together. And I think one of the things a curator does is you're allowed to tell your own story through artists. And there's just been such a deep connection to Donna's work. So it's been just an honor to work with her. So you as a curator, you choose themes and do you arrange the paintings? Well, I would say I'm going to bring Donna into the conversation now because it really, you know, it is something to walk into someone's archives and artist archives of 45 years of work. And we didn't start with a title. We started thinking about what are the different bodies of work and Donna and I would have conversations. And then we'd look at work together. She said many books and catalogs of her work. So we looked at the catalogs, but then sitting in her studio, it's so profound when someone opens a drawer, and there's a box, you know, and Donna will pull out this box. Oh, let's look in here. And so we went on a journey together. And we knew we were going to do the performance work, of course, because that's pretty important work. And I think we realize also that the age-related work, the act up work, the LGBT marching against Don't Ask, Don't Tell issues, the early lesbian, the Dyke marches and things. This was a history that people didn't really remember or know. And so we thought that was important. But it wasn't until we got to the animals that performative acts like, oh, I think that's what we can call it. And so then we had an organizing theme. And I don't know, Donna, maybe you should describe how it was for you to have people poking around in those boxes in your archives. It's really amazing when you think about the fact that we were both in San Francisco in November in 1977, I think, not 70, anyway, at the same time. And the trouble that we could, the good trouble, if I might, appropriated expression, we could have gotten into. But I think that both of our sensibilities were shaped by that early movement in San Francisco. So to have somebody like John, who I didn't, who I got to know really well during the culture wars in the early 90s, come into my studio, which is, it's like somebody going through your, your, you know, underwear drawer, you know, a lot of stuff that you may or may not be willing to show or share. But I felt so comfortable and the trust and the enthusiasm and the interest. It was, it was a pleasure to be able to just show and share things that I wasn't sure about, or I didn't really know about, or I didn't have a sense of whether or not they were good or not. So it was, it was a real pleasure to have somebody with this, with fresh eyes. It's always nice to have fresh eyes look at your work. Even if they don't like it, they always will tell you, teach you or say something that you didn't know, or you didn't realize, and it's always, it's always a great experience, whether it's in your archive and your studio, or whether it's on the wall in a museum or a gallery or a library. Anytime people look at your work, it's a great experience. Well, let's step back. When did you meet, Ben? You've been friends at least 40 years, 45 years? No, we, we, I've known Donna for 40 years because when she was the house photographer for PS 122, she'd actually be sitting on the edge of the stage and I'd be in the audience because I was a curator at that point at the Walker Art Center and so I'd be going to see shows and I wanted to see what was the, you know, because it was the place for the avant-garde and so I'd be seeing these shows and I thought, who is this strange woman with her like a camera just right there? And it was always her photographs that would be in the New York Times or the Will's Voice the next day in the review, you know, and so what happened was I didn't know her, I knew her work and then when the artist came to the Walker Art Center or other places I presented them, of course they used her photography because they really loved the way she photographs them and a lot of it wasn't staged or posed, it was really action shots, you know, that they, they would, she would photograph the artist in performance or in a dress rehearsal or something and it was really, it just, they were so visceral and they were so kinetic and it was, they had a pulse to them off the page and it, so it was then during 1990 I presented Karen Finley and that started the Culture Wars, that a review of the show at the Walker got Jesse Helms all upset, the senator and that started and suddenly Holly Hughes, Tim Miller, David Warnovic, Ron Athe, all of these artists, Donna had photographed and all these artists, we were getting slammed at the Walker where I was and so it became talking to Donna and other people about these artists to kind of protect them from demonized and sensationalized from like radical right wing media. Okay, let me, let me just say one thing, even though we didn't know each other, we knew each other because I knew John was curating all of my friends, but John we did, I, we met for the first time I think at PS 122, you came to see a young artist who was dancing on crutches in a different space and that was the first, I was shooting the dress rehearsal and that was the first time that we, that I actually got to meet you and I'm not sure what year that was. Well, you know, I was, I made a film with him, it was Crutchmaster, so I probably was sitting in the back with my camera. Yeah, well, yeah, but you, he was very nervous and you, you were really, really helping to have him find his way in the space and, and I think your presence and your, who you are helped that evening be incredibly successful and let him experience something that he knew he had, but he hadn't had a sense that he had, so that was the time I actually met you in the downstairs space at PS 122. Let's pause for a moment. Let me recommend Donna's wonderful website that we'll show the link to and John and Donna have a great conversation on it about the culture wars and let's now switch, let's now look at one of the photos from PS 122. Martyrs and Saints of Ron, healthy, healthy, healthy. Can you tell us a little about this Donna? It's a very intense photo. It's, it's Ron was performing at PS 122 in the upstairs space and he had himself, it was Saint Sebastian and he, he with with piercings on one of the, one of the beautiful white columns that I always would like to include in any photograph that I was able, if I could, while I was performing. He attached himself to that, but I think John, who knows, who's curated Ron and has done multiple conversations with him, would be the absolute best person to talk about Ron's work, I think, as opposed to me. Well, and what's, what's great is it's, we, we, we share this history with the Karen Finley's, the Ronnie Thieves, the Holly Uses, and David Warner-Novich. We could each go back and forth with stories, but with Ron, he had actually performed in Minneapolis before coming to PS 122 for that show and that had set off a firestorm because one of the visual art critics who did not come to the show, in fact, heard about Ron's show and three weeks after the event wrote this sensationalized review of the show she hadn't seen. It was outrageous. And so that then became the fodder of, oh, look what these artists are doing with National Endowment for the Arts money and this is so inappropriate. And then his next performance was at PS 122. So, of course, all the media was very interested in, in getting images of this radical artist. Now, and, and Donna was taking the images. So it was, it was wonderful to watch her navigate this, but to give you a little context of Ron and then Donna can tell you the stories about photographing Ron. He had a really interesting life. He grew up in a Pentecostal tent show family and his, his mother and his aunt, and I think probably his grandmother were schizophrenic and they had very unstable life together, but they would bring Ron to the tent shows. And early on around the age of eight, he would start speaking in tongues and dancing in these tent shows. And he became known as one of these Pentecostal healers. And it was very odd for a young kid to do that. And he's living in Los, in Los Angeles. Well, as he grew up, he got, he became much more of a punk in the punk aesthetics. And then he also got into the leather and bonded seam in, in Los Angeles. And he, he became a junkie. And so his work is interesting because it really deals with all of these issues in his life. It deals with redemption. It deals with healing from addiction. It deals with the bondage issues of what the limits are in persons. And it deals with religious iconography. So the picture that you're, you were showing is actually a Saint Sebastian picture on purpose. Cause in that picture, of course, Sebastian was pierced. And so in this particular performance moment, Ron is, is pierced in this side, you know, or earlier in the same show, there's a crown of thorns that's put on Ron's head.  It hurts a little bit, but not that much, but then there is blood. And so, but it's a thing of, to remember the nineties, body fluids were very frightening and very scary. So it's people like Ron Athe, we're pushing it, saying we are, we are washed in the blood. And this was 1993. Yeah. Yeah. And so then, then, then, then he comes to New York and the media is waiting for Donna's images. So, Donna, you should take over there now, I think. Well, all during the culture wars, the media and the press, following cues from Helms and his, his, his band of renowns were looking for pictures that would illustrate his point. And my responsibility was first to the artist, always to the artist, to represent them in the best possible light and the light they'd like to be seen in. And also at that time, people like John and I and all the, all the artists in all of the performing and vision and galleries were, we were the triage unit for the National Endowment for the Arts. So we, we, we would want, we wanted to present work that would not give them the media, the writers any opportunity to take a photograph out of context, which they would do regardless. But if they had photographs like Ron, looking beautiful, Saint Sebastian, Saint Sebastian, you know, it would be a lot harder for them to prove their point with my visuals, which did not make them happy. But it was the way, that's how I've always been with permission. I'm not going to cash in, I'm not going to, you can't pay me enough money to put out a photograph that would not make me happy or would not, that would be used against these, these artists and the work that they're creating for the communities that we lived in. It wasn't going to do it. So I did something else. I'm proud of that. Yes. Let's switch gears and go back five years to the Wild Cafe. This is my request that we include this photo of Paradise Lost at the Wild Cafe in 1988. This is in your exhibit of course. Tell us about this. Well, you know, I love this photograph for so many reasons, because all of my friends are in it. And when I was asked to, well, John also wanted to include this photograph in Performative Acts too, because of the Wild Cafe and because of women and because of lesbians and because of that particular community. And the Wild Cafe is such, was such and is still a magical place. So I was asked to also be in a show called Art After Stonewall and the curators had an idea about what they wanted to use. And in that particular show, I also wanted to include this photograph. So I asked Peggy Shaw, who's one of the members of Split Riches, along with Lois Weaver and Lori Sy to let me go to the, I was down, it was 2017, I was in town for some reason. And I wanted to go inside the space. I wanted to look at the buzzers in the front of the building. I wanted to get buzzed in and I wanted to climb up and be in the theater. So I could write this little piece about how important the Wild Cafe was for somebody like me. And so I climbed the 50 steps to the fourth floor and sat in the space and was able to sort of have a clearer sense about how important that space was for me. It was a place that you could go where you were safe, where you could laugh, where you could have fun, where you would cry. If you would laugh, you would cry. And it was like church. It was a really special place for me. Not like my home space, PS 122, where I had a responsibility. I had a different kind of responsibility at the Wild Cafe. I had a responsibility to my sisters and to myself. But it was more of a joyous thing. So I just went because I felt like it. I wasn't paid, but I was, I got a ticket and I got to sit in the front and I got to do what I did. And I'm happy that I have done that because I photographed quite a few performances there. So, and I have good friends that performed in Canyon and out of that, Debra Golan, Peggy Shaw, Lois Weaver, Holly Hughes, Sharon Dean Smith, Lisa Crone, Peggy Healy, Mo Angelis, a ton of women who were important to me in the 80s and into the 90s. The interview with Eva Weiss, Eva Weiss, great photographer, also was in the Lady Dick, which I think might have been the first performance that I shot there, Holly Hughes's piece, but many, many, many performances. I was privileged to witness and document. Well, let's switch back to the show traveling around the state. Performative X has been in Brattleboro, Kessleton in Rutland, Catamount Arts, Helen Day, where I was privileged enough to see it in person, and Burlington, and now it's in Bennington at the Bennington Museum where it is going to be showing until August 15. And then you're going to New York to the Hollow Gallery on the Lower East Side? Well, you know, that was, that was pre-pandemic. And now the pandemic closed that gallery down for a whole year. And so that's sort of off the table in the short-term calendar at this point. You know, the pandemic just changed things as well, so many, so many things. So actually Bennington was not on the original itinerary, and then it became coming home because it's just 12 miles from Donna's farm. So it's really great that it's there.  And so Donna's early photographs of these seminal artists are really important with not only a lot of the women who are written out of history in the avant-garde performance world. Donna has them, but also when we look at all the gay men that died, and she has the David Warner Novich, she has the John Burns, she has so many people as we went through this archives, and we saw how many great artists there were. You know, imagine if they all were like today, but... Just a little silence within another one of your photographs. Absolutely. You know, and so that was really an honor to go through that with Donna. What was fun, though, is that we didn't just want it to be about the performance work.  But we also wanted to make sure that the work she did with people living with mental illness was involved with, you know, and also was important for it to be current. So when we opened in Brattleboro in June of 2019, we included a photo of Christine Hallquist, because Christine... I was going to just ask about that. Let's put it up. Okay. So Donna, why don't you talk about this particular photograph? Well, how wonderful to hear the news that Christine was going to be the Democratic candidate in the state of Vermont. How wonderful is that? So I thought, you know, I was doing the show and we had a sense of what it was going to look like. So I knew that I needed to... I didn't need to do anything. I was pretty okay with what I had, but I wanted to do have two photographs that were new. So I went to... I called John and I said, what do I do? And John said, oh, just call this number and come down for, come up, not down, for the Pride Parade. And I'm sure, you know, it'll be perfectly... Yeah, you can do that. And I'm used to having a lot more security and a lot tighter restrictions on access. But so I called the press person and they were like, yeah, sure, come to the parking lot. I don't remember exactly where it was. And I'm standing there. And then Christine walks in, hey, how are you? So I just was able to, you know, meet her and have a conversation. And she knew what I was doing and part of the parade. And it was such a beautiful parade because the parade in New York is just, it's so big and it's not the same. And this was just... It was the people. It was the community and it was small and it was intimate and everybody knew each other. And it was really wonderful. So it was a really great opportunity for me to be able to do that.  So those were the two photographs, the new photographs that were included in this show only because John decided that they were good enough because they have to be good. They can't just be of something. They have to actually be good photographs too. And Christine came to the opening in Rattleboro, which was just so great. I hadn't seen her. And John suggested that I make a copy of one of the prints and give it to her as a present. And I thought, sure, that's a great idea. So we made a little presentation of that photograph from that show to her at the opening. It was great, you know, for her to be there, for people to meet her and for my friends to meet her and for her. It was just really nice that she bothered to come. Well, it's very accessible. If I just may talk about all things LGBTQ, the first interview after she declared was on our show. Of course, it was simply by CNN and other more famous venues. But, you know, she's a great force in the community. Oh, yeah. She is. And Becca Ballant was there at the opening in Rattleboro. It was just great. But what was fun, you know, Anne, as we toured this show around, the next stop was going to be in Rutland at the Castle of Gallery in downtown Rutland in the old bank there. And each of the curators of the shows chose which images they liked for marketing. And it was there that they chose one of the grooms that Donna had taken because she, when Sarato racetrack is in session, I think what, for eight years or so, Donna? No, like 14. She goes every week and she photographs, but she photographs the back stretch workers, the unknown people, not the fancy people betting the horses. And there was this one image that made it with the show. It was really important because if I understand this right, Donna, that the man had passed away, but his family was so impressed that he was in your show. He was in a gallery and they just love the postcard. Well, let me introduce the picture if I may. Roger Tooty holding Kyan and Leroy at Oklahoma training track and Saratoga in 2010. And Tooty is still with us, but he's not well. And the thing that's great, the thing that's wonderful about letting people decide which image, which is giving them a perspective for what they think.  It's collaborative. And John, of course, is the same.  And I asked Oliver, who was the, it's his space. I told him that I had 200 used aluminum racing shoes from the racetrack that I've used in installations before. And I said, would it be okay if I brought these shoes and dump them in these two windows so that, you know, and have a little information about a racing plate so that people could have a little education about what horses run on, what the shoes are made of, why they're made the certain way that they're made, how do the nails go in. So they had picked that photograph, but it wasn't until John and I saw the space for the first time that we looked and saw those two little spaces that I thought, oh, this is good. So we dumped, yeah, 200 shoes in the windows. And I don't know if you know the building. It's an old bank. But the problem is it's an old bank. And so all the windows are there and galleries don't usually have a lot of windows. And these are silver, gelatine, black and white prints, right? So it was like, light goes on them and they would fade within 48 hours or so, you know, it would be like it would destroy the photograph. So Donna and Oliver, the curator down there, we had to put black paper over all the windows to protect the work. And Oliver was great about it. Oh, he's a sweet man. Yeah, totally great. Well, let's turn to another contemporary image of a Black Lives Matter march. You've been busy during the pandemic. You certainly you've been showing everywhere, but you've been taking a lot of new photographs. Is that right, Donna? Well, actually, in 2020, I shot, I exposed 30 rolls of film. In 2019, I shot 175. In 2018, I shot 145. Okay. And going. So no, I went to that because a friend was organizing it with a bunch of young women who had who set that up. So I was, that's probably the only really live event that I went to besides my my father-in-law's unveiling in February of 2020. So no, I that and I'm really, that was the only time I sort of really went out in the world because I just my community was shut down. I wasn't able to photograph the way I wanted to photograph. And honestly, I just wasn't, I don't know. I just wasn't interested in taking pictures of people with masks on for some reason, except in the context of this, this, this protest. I thought, you know, that it didn't really matter that I didn't care, but I wasn't really, I didn't feel like doing that kind of, that kind of work. And I, so I didn't really shoot. I didn't have my community, my people. But, but, you know, and what was fun is that, you know, this was the, that, that particular photograph you're mentioning, Black Lives Matter is one of the two new ones we brought into the Bennington Museum. Because as it showed toward the, each of the galleries were different in size and what we could have. And so I think you said you saw it at Hellen Day in Stowe. And so we added seven photographs there that weren't in the show in Bennington because there was more space in, in Stowe. And one from Donna's Archives for the, for the Hellen Day Center in Stowe was 9-11. Donna was in New York living there at that time. And so she got one with the World Trade Center's actually on fire. It's an incredible image that she caught. And, and when we did a, Donna and I did on Zoom a visit with some of the school kids from Stowe. And that is the photograph that the kids wanted to talk about. And they kept saying to Donna, were you scared that day? It's really interesting, like that, that's, that one resonated. Not Ron Athea, St. Sebastian. It was, it was this one. So then when we went to Bennington. Let's show it. And the, it's striking because you could see the flames in the background, but it's not in the center. And in your art, you talk about framing and how that's particularly an artistic thing to do. I'm not, I don't know enough about photography to ask an informed question here. Like, can you talk about the, the framing and then it's not in the center? Well, I'm, I'm really interested in the edge, the photograph. I'm actually, my influences come from illustration, particularly early illustrations, cartoons. And so I, I like to, I'm not, I like to sort of work. And I like interruption in the frame too. And so when I managed to get out of jury duty and get my camera out of the lockbox on the ground floor as they were evacuating the building, and I backed up and I saw what was happening and I decided that I was going to go down to the, go down there because that's what you do. And then the first tower fell and then I thought, oh, that's not what you do. So I made my way back up Broadway and at Canal Street, I stood back and I saw, well, actually the tower hadn't fallen yet, but I think I, I talked to Brad on the phone and he said, don't go down there. That's what happened. He said, do not. And he had no idea. He had to turn on the radio. And when I was standing on the corner of Canal and Broadway, I looked and the towers were in the background and there was this advertisement for an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, Collateral Damage. And I just looked at that and I thought, oh my God. And so I made that photograph. I mean, I have pictures of people running farther away up Canal Street, up Broadway, the towers falling, going down, but I never really showed any of those photographs. This is the first time that I actually thought about showing that, making it public. It is on my website though. I decided what the heck. But that was a tricky photograph because it's so, it's heavy. It's, you know, it's, you know, what am I cashing in on the advertisement for the movie and my, on Sacred People died there. That's a burial place. I mean, it's sacred ground. There's 3,000 moffits in that space. So it was, it was an interesting and tricky and confusing, but I did it and I'm glad that I did. You know, it actually took some convincing. The curator had to convince the artist to actually show it because it is such a powerful image. And that resonated with the elementary school students. That's the one that, it was fascinating. Just as we mentioned that Karen Finley, Donna had never shown that, that photograph in public either since 1990. So as we put this show together and, you know, of course, the first thing she was called Karen to make sure it was okay. And of course it was because Donna never really wanted to exploit, right, or sensationalize any of this work. So, but, but I mentioned this because now that we're at home and Donna's home in Bennington, we said, well, what is there about Bennington that we could bring to Bennington? And it was the Black Lives Matter photograph, which is just across the state lines, as well as Donna has a great photograph of an old farmer in Sandgate. Will you describe it, well, we added, we, as we like to do as my curator insists on bringing things relevant, making them contemporary. So I had the Black Lives Matter photograph, which I think is a good photograph that represents 2020. And then we decided, John said, Well, what else, what do you think? And I have a photograph of Junior Bentley.   Well, so does Junior. They're both residents of my hometown. They're both residents of Sandgate, one who's gone and one who's, who sells potatoes and corn at the market in Bennington. So when we met with Jamie, John and I, and to see the space, I brought some work because just so he could see what it looked like. And we, and I had that photograph I just made and printed it. And he immediately recognized him and said, Oh, that's the potato guy. And so John was like, Oh, the potato guy. Yes, he's built, I guess he's going to be in the show. And I love that photograph because he's, he's there with his horse. I think it's Minerva is, is, is the, is the cow.  And he's kind of half covered in the cow is kind of peaking out of the dark bond. So it's, I like that photograph very much. So yeah, so we have three new pictures for Bennington. Now that we're back at the farm, I'd like to quote you to yourself Donna, if you wouldn't mind. At a Vermont council, arts council interview, they asked, What is something about your art that has changed over time? You said, My work has become more intimate and personal. I work more closely with animals and the land. My relationship to my work is a direct result of my working alongside, alongside horses, goats, and neighboring farmers. Now I'd like to switch to Northern spy farm in 2007 to see a picture of your husband who, aforementioned in a wonderful photo called goat song. Can you tell us it's like he's commuting with the goat. It's wonderful. Can you tell us about it? Yeah, well that goat, that's Lizzie. She's, if you've read goat song, she's, she's one of the four original goats. She's one of the four original goats that we got when we first brought our goats here. And he, she was a very special goat to everybody, but in particular to Brad. He, he loved her very, very much. And she and him, well, we all have connections with animals in different ways, but Lizzie was, you know, as all of our, all of our does, all of them, they're all really special. But as she was the herd maker from her, are a line of goats right down to like the fourth or fifth generation of her, her daughters are with us. In fact, this year, last year we kept, two years ago, we kept Harvey milk out of our goat names Lata. And this year we kept another dough from Zlatah, who is, you know, comes from wiki, comes from that whole line of lady goats. And we're keeping a little doling this year. I think her name is going to be Freddie Mercury. So I guess she's no longer with us. No, Lizzie passed away for, she was probably 12 when she left. And on the ground now in the retirement zone, we have Jewel, who's 13, Tilly, we lost this year, she was 14, Wicca, we lost, she was 12, and Foyt, who's 11. So there's, there's, there's a little retirement community. And those retired goats raised the babies and it's, so it's really nice to see if only we could learn as, as human beings, how important the elders of our community are. Here are these old goats raising the babies. Why can't we do that? Why can't we bring our old together with the young? I mean, why do we, it's just, it just doesn't make any sense to me when you can see it, you see it here. We could learn so much from animals if only we pay attention and listen. So. Well, Lizzie is memorialized in a photograph. And speaking of goats and the farm, and one of the interviews that a fabulous interview that you and John did at Catamount Arts Library, you talked about learning a Swedish goat call from Meredith Monk. And you were kind enough to share it with the live audience at the library. I was wondering if you would be kind enough to share it with us. It was lovely and euphomious. Okay. Well, John and I have a special connection to Meredith Monk. I mean, he brought her to the walker. Meredith rides, she knows about horses. In her studio, there's a photograph that I gave her in the early 90s. It's one of the only works of art that is not necessarily hers or in relationship to her sensibility, it's in there. And when I first came to New York from San Francisco, I went to a performance at St. Mark's Church with a dancer and friend, Aldona Regulus. And she was doing the Plateau series number two. And this riff that she had, this improvisational movement, but also voice which is what she does often in her work, really stuck by me. And so when I got my goats and Brad started to research for goat song and we started to look at, you know, how do people get animals to come in? How do they call them? What's the relationship? I decided to use this Monk riff. And it's not exactly what Meredith did, but, you know, I've never done it in front of Meredith. But I have to sort of, let me see how I can get into it. John, do you have anything to say about Meredith as I prepare? Well, we also have a picture we could show of her at PS 122 doing volcano songs. Yes. 1994. Let's show that while you compose yourself. Okay. You know, and that again, this is a shared history with volcano songs. I had commissioned Meredith to do an opera called Atlas. And it was would be Houston Grand Opera and the Walker. And I actually have on my arm a tattoo from Atlas, an image of a horse that is from Meredith's horse. So that was, but after, after Atlas, she'd worked five years on this huge opera piece. She, it actually was just remounted Los Angeles two years ago to great acclaim. And it's a, it's a really great work. But she said, I just want to go into the studio and start over. I don't want to have a project in mind. I can't, you know, I can't figure out the project before. And so I said, okay, well, let's see if we can raise money for you just to begin again. And so we did. And she got a little bit of money together. And the piece was a solo and it was called volcano songs. And the photo in this exhibition that's touring right now through the state has Meredith in that solo format in volcano songs. So there's, there's almost all of these artists we could talk back and forth on, but let's hear Meredith Monk's goat songs now. Oh, okay. Evulous. If I were a goat, I'd come running. My dad just went running. Well, this has been a great conversation. Or is there anything you want to add? We have a few more minutes. Well, yeah, I could make you very jealous, by the way. Okay. Because I've been down to the goat farm a number of times. and there was she had a new baby boy born and they don't keep the boys around very much on the farm because it's a dairy right so they keep the girls and they sell the boys but they decided this one boy was so sweet and so they they were going to castrate them and keep them and I said oh name them after me John Johnny Ray and so they have a little what do you call them you don't call them a boy goat he's a weather a weather anyway Johnny Ray lives on the farm and and of course Brad her husband thought it was Johnny Ray the singer that he didn't even know who was named after so I have a goat named after me and just saying okay I am very impressed okay well we'll have to come down and visit the farm and Johnny Ray Johnny Ray and what the archives are in a separate building there and so when you go visit Sandgate the farm after you visit the goats make sure you go into Donna's exhibit and you can just say let's look at some of the early history of some of the early dike marches and was it dike nation right dike nation that was and the lesbian Avengers she has such an archive of photograph of women at that early part of the movement that you will be just in heaven you'll be delirious yeah I mean I was I was lucky enough to photograph the first dike march in Washington DC in 1993 no and Laurie and I went out it Laurie and I went out at night we went out at night and all these women with no shirts on like dancing around in front of the White House and whenever I put that up it always I always get thrown in the lock up for while violating community standards because you can't show boobs are you can't no there's no there's no showing there's no showing of breasts that's against the law so I put it up a few times and been thrown into lock the Facebook Instagram a big house oh no friends this has been wonderful and you'll have to come back again when in the next incarnation of the show as you continue to travel around and work together thank you so much for coming oh and thank thank you for having us yes thank you for having us thank you for joining us we'll see you in two weeks but in the meantime resist