Once God recognizes itself, God also disappears. Like when you truly recognize yourself, the self disappears, right? It's like the wind, when it comes to wind, the sky comes to the sky. It doesn't feel itself, it doesn't label itself. The only reason why you're not, like, as vast as the sky is because of the things that you haven't looked at. That's it.  All commerce comes down to that, really. Just sensation, trying to entangle other sensations. The way I always describe it is the middle way is more like what transcends both sides of the duality, which includes both sides of duality. But you need to kind of max out on both sides to be able to transcend them. Yeah, whatever you're feeling as a ground is the curricula for dissolution. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, what more can we, like, the end of measurement? There's nothing much to say. Yeah, exactly. Here we are, Frank Yang. Welcome back. Hello, Alice. It's good to see you, T. You too. Same. Hi, Reuben. It's so good. So good, my brother. Me too. Yes. Yeah. I'm actually really happy we took that long break so that we could deepen. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree. Yeah. Somebody asked me if awakening is, like, on and off switch, or it goes on forever, I said both. Right. Yeah, I said there is an on and off switch, at least for me. And then the integration, what I want to call it, deepening of the realization, and it goes on forever. Right. Yeah, I'm not the one who said that. I mean, I agree with that, but I hear a lot of people say that. Because, like, life itself is integration, right? And life, that's what I like to call it, the information. Because it's constantly morphing, you know. It's constant shape shifting. Right. Yeah, that's life. Yes. Even though the state, like, whatever I want to call it, non-duality, natural state, I want to call it. After the shift, it's the same. But the, how it's manifested and integrated to your... Yeah. It changes every nanosecond. Like you said, it's like, what you said earlier, it's like a workout, like a post-media workout. Right. Yeah. Right. And recently you were talking about becoming the best athlete. Yes. Yes, I always use that name. Yeah. The difference is though, after realization, after the worship is violated, it just happens. Like, whatever integration that's going to happen, it just happens. And your desire is absolutely no different from life's desire. Right. And then I realized that the future of the realization is whatever you do, even though it's kind of a control, it's just what life is. It's the best place to live itself. Yeah. It's like, you can't go wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there are certain things I have to, like, call, but it's not like, oh, I gotta, like, what is that? Oh, I gotta start on a meditative state. Like, all that's been dissolved. Right, right. But the places that this thing is taking me, like, whatever you want to call it, universal world, well, you realize that it's taking a place that you're never expected for. And there's not a, there's not a both. It shouldn't be this way. Or this couldn't be this way. Or any other way. That voice is gone. Yeah. It's like, now you're just in the, yeah. To all senses. Yeah, they're resistant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even it's like you sit in the back seat pretty much. Right. That's, that's the only knowledge I can think of.   Crazy. This is just like, God just gave me this like infinite car to drive. How do I drive this? I don't know. We don't even know what to key. What are the buttons, right? And then you try to figure out how to drive it. But then after a while, you just realize, wait, the car's driving itself. You don't need to do anything. And then the places at this time of safety, you're just like sitting in the back seat with your feet up. Yeah. Like I said earlier, it just, it's not even, it's not even a point of expectation. It's not even like, oh my God. What are you expecting? Oh, okay. This is what it's supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. Since our last conversation, so many more of the things that you had been sharing became deeper and deeper in direct experience and realized. And the most shattering, dissolving one was shifting from the concept of God into emptiness. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then that, that was a whole different realization. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just so we don't confuse our viewers. I still use the word God, but I use that interchangeably. To like reality, emptiness or just the mind or whatever. Like, well, some people like God, and I guess you see me as God, we're just confused. Right. And this is the key thing. But we can talk about the shift. And the key thing was being a person with the concept versus being the nothingness, the energy itself, which isn't a thing and it's everything. And that shift happening in the spring was crazy. And then that's where the no do worship and the no center started emerging more and more organically. And I noticed that, that emptiness and love being those two sides of the same coin started emerging more and more too. More and more. Yeah. So the spaciousness and the surrender to whatever was arising was so taking over and it was so beautiful and perfect. No resistance. Yeah. To any experience or sensation there, even if it would be some like roaring of someone's conditioning in a yelling, screaming way, there would just be equanimity. Even even if it would pinball off into some desire to respond for a second, that their equanimity would just, I'm so open to healing this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the insight that I got was bondage is freedom. Even when you feel contracted way. Yeah. Even when you contract this on time, it's not really contracting. It's just the, the means to do in a state to the cost of the back of the universe, you know, if an origination, whatever. So it's like before there was a resistance to that resistance. Or another is that before you were still trying to let go, like you're trying to surrender. And you realize that there's no point to kind of surrender. After you sort of let go of let go.  I'm trying to be this awareness. When she rises like, now I got to do my, you might like, you know, expansion thing.  Yes. Right. Yeah. Every state now is. Yeah. Yeah. Even the stages that we've talked about. See, when I was making that, I was, I was, I know, I know this time, I think it's not some of the faults, but I was slightly attached to the self emptiness things because I was going through that out. I had just stepped out of the cock. And now even that's gone. The self and no self integrated together. Like that's really like your desire, the university. You want to even call it a desire. Like the human aspect. Very important. Yep. Yeah. And I think that has beautifully come up as bringing the celestial terrestrial or the, the air into earth. Yeah. Yeah. And making it cellular. Yeah. Like making it every moment, not just like sometimes or like as a concept. Yeah. It's the infinite in the final. And I, and I'm feeling more and more that sort of that, that end of it all seeking. Also expressed similarly, like you were just referencing, which is very much like the middle way, like even bondage is freedom itself. And so there's, there's no urge to change anything. So. Yeah. Meaning it's all perfect as it is. And so there's no desire to change infinity to wake up. Yeah. Yeah. I even lost that desire to talk about this stuff. It's like the, like I said, every state is equally valid. You know, the state like the awareness stage, whatever God, state from and love, most of emptiness. It's all for the sake. But one, but once you're going through it, it's like, holy fuck, I thought that was it. This is something else. Yeah. Yeah. But all of that, it's just a reaction of the rest of it. Even the labels of the different stages, you know, or the experiences of it, either like spiritual highs and spiritual lows or however you want to quantify it.  It's still dissolving. The process of dissolving, the process of physically dissolving your body, mind, and your experience, that process, the same process from the beginning, but that the mind, the mind responds to those different openings. It's a little different in a different case in each stage. And the more you dissolve the bigger the opening and the more you experience the divinity, light, whatever, you know, and then after a while, even that's integrated in itself. Like I said, once God recognizes God, God also disappears. Like when you really recognize that God Himself disappears, right? It's like the wind, when you come to wind, the sky, the sky doesn't feel itself as a lifeline. Right. Right. And it's been really important for the seeker to exhaust itself in the process to sort of keep going as the sense of self doesn't feel like it's gone and then question, well, what is the cause of the proliferation of that identity and location and sense of, oh, there isn't that kind of thing. And then that's really been a helpful way of looking at it is this sort of proliferation from spaciousness or from emptiness, like just seeing those proliferations, seeing where there's resistances. Why is there a resistance there? And then kind of turning the eye on itself and just being like, where is it in the body? Right. What have I locked in cellularly into a contraction somewhere? And is it something about my life, something about some stories, some traumas, some shadows? And how can I ease my way into it and sort of unlock that and let that go, express it and let it go? Yeah. Just the stuff you expect to look at really, the stuff that you haven't looked at. The only reason why you're not in this disguise is because things that you haven't looked at. Right. And most people spend their whole life running away from that. Yeah.  Just don't do anything for the women. They wouldn't want to do it. They wouldn't want to do it. They wouldn't want to look at themselves. Yeah. Yeah, because the nature of it reveals itself through do nothing. And Yeah. Yeah. And it's really scary. That's why it's very scary. Yeah. Especially at the worst end when there's like a tiny bit of resistance on the left.    There's nothing you can do. Yeah. That's why I did a show on the play. It calls it the, the wicking of the gut. Yeah. It's like, you know, let's just look in a very psychological manner. Like your whole body is off. It usually starts with the head, hopefully in the wake of the mind and the heart with the solution of the chest air.  Right. Yeah. And then when you have that open, that's when you leave the door. Yeah. Like when you open up the mind, you lose the seer, thinker, hear whatever. Then when you go all the way down, the bottom of your nerves, that's when the viewership involves. And like, it's the same process. It's deeper and deeper. Yeah. So it is from doing what's possible. Right. Right. The gut and those lower energy centers are such a deep store of those. Yeah. Yeah. That really badly want to be expressed to be released into greater freedom, into sky. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a big part of the end of seeking is also the end of questions also. So. Oh, yes. Definitely talk about that. No more. Yeah. The desire for you. Right. Right. It's like the way I describe the spiritual seekers coming through your head. Like it just boils in your head. That's coming down this process. That's already happening in the backstop. It's not like you can do anything about it. I mean, during the process, you just feel like you have to try to find the right part for most people. But after a while, there's nothing you could do about it. The voice in your head is commenting on this. Oh, where you're at or question things about reality. You know, what's reality and what's consciousness. What is God? What is this made out of? And then at the end, the voice is complete. I'm so quiet. There's no more questions coming in. And every one of those questions is so important for the seekers journey. And there's a way to be more efficient by asking those bigger questions off the bat as quickly as you can. Like what is reality? What is God? What is this field? What is all of this? What is a sensation? What is energy? If you really get to that stuff faster, instead of like playing in the noise, let's say, find the needles in the haystack. Right. And then it'll create a greater dissolution of the center faster. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. That's why a lot of people that go on the topic are asking these questions for young. Yeah. Yeah. And the, I think it's important to question the answer is right. Everything is that. That's what the Zen calls every single Zen call has the same input. It's just this, right? Yeah. But then you, it's so difficult to talk about this because when you tell people this is it or like, is this, unless you went through the whole unfoldment, it's very difficult to understand where you're talking about. They're going to relate their current levels of consciousness to the what it is. So a lot of people just go, oh, there's nothing to do. But the what is important after the practice finish at least to that point is completely different. It's like, I always tell people you put the different in this experience right now, which is quite a winner. Like even just like a month before the shift you'll lose his mind. Yeah. Yeah, but it's all right. Yeah. And another good way to put it that will I feel like we'll continue elaborating on in the content that we create is that there seems to be some sort of a like a like a heads up display that has a bunch of like concepts and ideas and identities and whatnot and the inquiry process is sort of like dissolving those like assumptions and identities and location and all that kind of stuff and then you sort of that loop closes on itself and you sort of you see what it's like to not have a heads up display. Like where there's no identity no location, no ideas, no concepts total innocence just beautiful surrender you know that kind of thing and it's a really good analogy in some ways to video games that people are aware of playing the games with the heads up display and what it's like to not have a display of tons and tons of little icons basically and stuff that you're constantly managing with your mind and like pinballing yourself between them endlessly. So it's like the cessation of that thousands of times. Yeah, so it's like when the video games itself there's no new you have icons telling you what to do pretty much. Yeah. Even the icon of emptiness and love and even I am even emptiness and no self even just a way to move. Right. But it's really hard to follow when you first discovered it. It's like you've built down a different realization you access a different phase of consciousness and let all that go in a sense it's almost like I think in Ramana Maharshi said something similar when he said like one of his final teachings like I'm not ready for that. It's the part of the the part of the seeker part of the seeker just has to end. Yeah.  Yeah, and the solution of that it's really like we talked about earlier for me it was like the core like the gut. And it's not like spirituality itself is the problem it's just that the rest of the country has to hang up so when you use spirituality to dissolve everything else the tiny bit of it that's like in the bottom of your tongue everything else I can see it's just going to hang on spirituality or you're all awakened Right, and there's such a like a beautiful, subtle solidity of spirituality and awakening that's there and it just wants to proliferate itself around as emptiness is equal to form and that this is all infinity or endlessness and it's all one field and you investigate your sense of self to wake up and then just letting go of even that and just so what's left it's just groundless and it's scriptless and and it's just beauty and there's just such high, it's just beautiful also equanimity through even the sensation that is some sort of pain or yeah it's just a whole different ballpark Yeah, yeah, it is it's uh so all this stuff you went through spirituality is like a transcendence of this stuff a temporary transcendence of yourself and the dropping away of yourself a permanent dropping of it's in a different ballpark in any mystical state in any psychedelic states in any state and what I describe what's left after you have all just dental state or mystical state with the rest of the solidity like you just can't I don't even know how to talk about this they still kind of need some kind of anchor because if you give this thing to a person too early you're gonna oh you didn't realize any voice is kind of true like the ultimate realization is like non-realization you know I don't even think my realization is anymore but I'm gonna say if you want to share this you still have to kind of package it in more or less like the way that people can kind of use an anchor to unpack for them to like heal or else yeah they either gonna think like you're crazy or they're gonna think you haven't done anything you know there's nothing to do sure yeah and ultimately people that see because it doesn't feel like the in many ways the three-fold training is such a direct way for the seeker to investigate itself because morality is very common across all religions and philosophies and so it's unique to whatever that entity feels like is moral whatever is good etc and and of course there's feels like commonalities like the more that you feel the interconnection of everything like this can't the more ethical you are exactly like this can't live without the phytoplankton and trees everything's in that interdependent cycle and so that means all life is in that interdependent cycle with itself and so it's like living, breathing, pulsing, morphing cycle and so then if you really sort of anchor in that first thing of morality which is like the when sort of self-awareness kind of boils up to say that morality is one of the first places that it tends to go and then along with that if concentration or focus is desired and it's applicable to all parts of life it's not just meditation and inquiry but it's also why am I a slave to social media why can't I focus for more than someone who's talking to me why am I already lost and waiting for my own turn to speak or whatever it is and so concentration focus helps you develop in all aspects of life even a greater sense of empathy with like listening to someone talk all of these types of ways so concentration helps and then through morality and concentration wisdom is gradually revealed more and more and that's I feel like it's just such a classical perennial pointing that style that approach for the viewers that don't know what we're talking about he's talking about that what is it called? The three fold training Buddha's three fold training Buddha's in 101 morality concentration insight she has some odd upon you there we go yeah I can hear it going in the background I have something to say about that hold on so I'm glad you brought that up with the whole integration thing because I think the whole integration process morality yeah I didn't find it important but morality is until like after I've maxed out the written access yeah for some people they you can pretty much connect all three pillars if you just take one to the extreme um the morality the work is pretty much infinite like you can just keep going with that be more ethical just be a better person but the insight the wisdom access you know when revealed close to but even after the rest of the condition still has to be I think to the emptiness and that process is all concentration too you're talking about the surfacing right of those conditions yeah the surface of after you after you access to the all your condition is like evaporated to the line to truth by the way it's impossible like most teachers take up to like seven years or like ten years completely you know I don't know I'm just taking a moment by moment right now but on a conventional level that does make sense and even though there's nothing more you can do on the wisdom access development after you you know reach the end of that the morality part the integration you can always improve and the three days you go they really feel like the way that you can't really see unless you really bring up the morality because it's like if you how concentrated are you going to be just to meditate or even just you know to your mind is filled up with what should I do just to some you don't have concentration you can't penetrate reality you can't like you know you can't reveal the truth and the more wisdom you have the more you can see holy shit I'm such an asshole or I was in a certain degree I can always be a better person and then concentration also helps see clues not just yourself how are you the difference yes I'm noticing that integration is the terrestrialization or the earthing or the embodiment of the celestial and what not the air the realizations and the insights and the integration I've noticed has a deepening distances themselves a little bit at least from the games of identity and the games of civilization the games of self and others and lack and all that stuff so meaning the more time that you take and this is why again alone alone alone because just like in the Theravada Buddhism the retreats the 10 day silent retreats those your do you know how to shut up for 10 straight days and not say a word do you know how to not use technology for 10 straight days do you know how to not talk to people all that kind of stuff and what you see is that in your integration if you also stop all your social media postings and communications stop texting and calling and only just tune into the go and wake up and sunbathe like lay out in the sun listen to nature to mother nature go to the gym take care of your body the fitness side the nutrition side of things and just lay and do nothing be nothing be no one don't engage in goal achievement and attainment and just do nothing be no one and just keep do over I mean that's training doing nothing is like lifting weights bro especially in the beginning before and and you'll see how quickly that little urge to want to communicate your insight on social media yes you'll you'll see that you'll finally see it I know I've been through that myself so I can see in other people like I'm not judging them because I did the same thing like after shift like after like I see a lot of people like they just go on social media and just posting about it I mean I think that's great too awesome like minus size to this I think it's great that you share because first of all you share you also kind of dissolve it as well so it's a way to dissolve right then you saw the people get something out of it that's great but there can't be like a fine line there can be a balance that you kind of you do it too much choose but if you don't share at all that's also like middle way middle way yeah right so it's neither neither yeah neither sharing nor silence you know something like that yeah exactly like one of the first the first discord that the blue the middle one is aesthetics how do you say that word aesthetics right so he made a bunch of aesthetics they don't even go out they just they don't even they're just like torturing themselves and then put out when like this is not the way because you're just more resistant you're creating this you know I mean he was a prince first so he went the whole like and then he went out of the way of the extreme instead of and then he walked out of there it has to be this is not the way I guess for some people it is but at least for other people that I've seen who I've been with middle ways just bad just like the meditate you guys ask me if I can do like contraction practices or should I do do walking meditation or just relax I'm like they're too snap that's the same and that speaks a lot that the first teaching was middle way that should be a big indicator of this so what does that sort of mean to be in the middle between emptiness and form or whatever two poles that you want to like what does it mean to be in the middle or in a super position of them both at the same time and neither of them and then you get into the indescribable and the ineffable right right the way I always describe it is the middle way is more like what transcends both sides of the duality which includes both sides of duality but you need to kind of max out on both sides to be able to transcend them they're inconceivable it's really just the notion that emptiness is conceivable because it's empty of consecutability and if you look at physicists they delve really deep into nature of reality going down to the particles at the atomic level like, you know, springs at the quantum level you get into reality the more you can see like Richard five quantum mechanics thinking it could be you think you understand God you can understand emptiness you think you understand the self whatever you're doing whatever you're trying to because it's inconceivable but then this inconceivable it's not like the mind doesn't know it's not like an ignorance of the mind it's like you become reality so much that you can't see itself that's the way I describe it so it's not like you're going away from it you actually experience yourself at a more steeper level your realization becomes much deeper when you let go of your identity, your identification to your realization and your desires you don't want that realization or any kind of answers to questions that are generated by the mind you know, what is reality what it comes just grab all that and spin it around or a constant reality that's not even your work but it's the experience the lack of better word business yes, in itself more complete because if there's still a reality between like what's knowing what's knowing it if you think your mind still knows something there's still you know in the know and until that point when it feels like it has fully closed the loop on itself and then there's whatever it is for it to ignite itself which is really just igniting its own the solutions of its own assumptions about self and others and world and identity and location all that kind of stuff as those things fall apart then it knows itself more and more cleanly and then it ends its own seeking and it ends its own questioning and it ends its own uncomfortability ends its own resistance and it can sort of allow the rawness of sensation to be as it is and be in full love with that and yeah because it knows itself as as itself as this whole you oh yeah cosmic octopus to bring that back from our it's just all of those sensings that are happening and there's nothing but love for itself so it just spaciously opens its heart up to whatever conditioning needs to unravel itself and then it just holds that loving space and whether it's a parent or a friend or someone that needs to heal or whatever yeah so what else are we talking about? I just miss you so much man I'm excited to play yeah I love playing I still love talking but it's just different plays at the moment I miss the same things different it's not a necessity for me anymore to want to share it no I still do it's not like a mission to prove something or to wake up tomorrow well that's gone right right gosh and that's the thing is kind of feeling the whole and just sort of allowing it to suffer oh okay I mean in this sense of like allowing the polarized propaganda and the hatred and the egos and the separation and the not knowing itself as the whole like allowing that suffering to happen like seeing that that is infinity knowing itself in that way and that it exactly yeah so the sort of the urge to when somebody speaks from a partial perspective when they're not like speaking from the whole there's no longer the urge to want to insert itself to change that perspective to be more holistic only only when that entity turns on itself and wants to know how to feel more holistic then it's pure for asking a question and then seeing that itself is just reflecting to itself how to see more holistically to let go of the center to let go of the self and that's healing for it so it no longer feels so charged basically just charged in some sort of it's just some sort of like hatred that it's like the social conditionings that brew in a collective where there's got to be someone to point and say is the other and then hate and then make propaganda about why to hate them and it just happens between the two sides of the political polls in a country or it happens between nations in that way it's just that and then to really feel okay with that totally equanimous about that it's one's own healing from the social conditioning itself right and those that can feel it can also feel it in these silences you can feel it when you just hug your mom, dad or friend in a long embrace and you just don't feel like you're there what we're talking about and so even if you feel a lot of solidity you can really feel it in these simple exchanges oh yeah tell me about that you said like how did you make that like was that you said the from the identification beyond that I'm sure there's a lot of people you know I mean not a lot of people right hardly one of the fun ways to put it is like Adishanti says coming to the end of your rope so and even just in the spring spring what is spring now fall? we're entering into fall so several months has been like this and you know I'll say even these simple things like you know Rob Burbea in seeing that freeze which you initially hinted me towards even just these simple things like when I'm introduced to the idea of proliferation even just that you know that you just what is that again well it's like like Papantsha the proliferation of the sense of self and others and identity and location separation what did you say about that well because I hadn't made the click before that nibbana the being gone was actually about the cessation of weaving so like you're done weaving you've stopped weaving so meaning you've stopped proliferating right right right and so at that time in the spring I was like wow just by sort of finding these needles in the haystack it can sort of create a greater like more sudden shift and then that gradually empties those conditions that surface and and so yeah it's just I've also really sort of been enjoying identitylessness I think that's another good way to to share what the spaciousness the love feels like and so it really feels like being more and more gone and it's quite nice and it's very cellular it used to be very conceptual and many times have been reflected that I have a very sharp mind and that comes from the studying of so many of these concepts and ideas and it's so tempting especially that's the to be a concept ninja you have to let go of your intellect and that's a really heart growing book especially if you're home live you're being a smart person I know I did that for like 10 years like 15 years and I was really I didn't my mind, my brain I was so smart I was books I read how much like smart content I was 20 pounds and the irony is a lot of people have gone on the path gone on the path because obviously are very good thinkers they question all the inquiries obviously they're smart and feel like same-haired for example super smart but then like that's the weapon they're confusing but at the end you have to let that weapon go too and that's one of the hardest things I had to do before I was like oh frankly I was a bodybuilder and then frankly my mind is my fucker and then oh spirituality is John God my mind but then even the gamma has to be like but then the gamma I would say my intellect became sharper after that but what would it be like actually you become it that's why I say a realization until you swallow and hold and like that's it and then it becomes if you feel a little candidate what the fight would be if you're like if you're like realizing about it you're perceiving the experience in it then it's not you yet so that's the subtle difference between the God consciousness and the God realization and no self is like at the God phase sure you can access this time infant awareness but then the space dissolving your the rest of your condition then once you get to the very end it's almost like there's still a particle in the center and if there's a particle a point there's going to be a circumference but without that point the conference is also so I would say like the God consciousness this thing or like John and all this it's still a thing for a lot of people because there's still a point here you try to measure it try to attach it to try to experience it to try to look at it from some point once that point is gone so is the conference that's true in infinity but then at this point you don't even see there's infinity anymore the end of infinity brah and so those all those notions of like distance and depth and you've been just like out here that it crosses over here and here all that's it's like a miracle you know it's you're in a virtual world there's depth and distance and color there's a character there you can see things but then you're known they're not real that's what Buddha that means emptiness really nobody here in existence so we can take off the goggles the exact same thing yeah it's just a fabrication say looking at your hand looking at the hand of your goggles it's the same thing that's going on yeah and there's no depth here there's no depth so it's like you're permanently stuck in a VR set yeah that's that again going back to like worse ability and suchness you know it's all about this like you've never actually seen yourself you actually don't know what you're looking at like even just the whole notion of the self you know it's like the only reason why I thought I had a self is because I thought I knew what I was looking at or what I was feeling if I close my eyes and there's the image of Frankie and pop into my head I know that's me I'm not familiar with Frankie I know that's me but you don't know what this is completely inconceivable you don't know what it is apart from the representation of it but what is the representation of nothing some formless mystery yeah it's just a complete mystery it's a complete mystery yeah and then it's like you kind of also go beyond this whole duality of like idealism or like solipsism you find the middle way actually because you realize always mine sure but that doesn't tell you anything about what the mind is that doesn't tell you that you're the only mind that exists so it's not exactly solipsism it's not exactly materialism either because you never actually experienced fault with a tutorial and a perceptual a confidence and experience it's not exactly physical even if you touch a rock it's a sensation somewhere it's not nothing or nowhere but you can't deny the existence of an external world either even though one exists that's just jumping into another side of the extreme so I actually think that's a really great middle way to be in it's like yeah everything is but then doesn't mean that you're the only mind that exists there's a lot of people that solipsism they just kind of put their sense of like this grand costume or even the whole idea like everything is conscious or like everything is some infinite like creator or whatever yeah at the end you just don't know you just don't know what the fuck is going on yeah and that's what it means right well I found what what we mentioned in this last bit about VR to be so helpful so go and put on a VR headset and have the experience practice it's a good way to practice and then also as we mentioned earlier there's like all these when you're doing this VR you can see it as all these different like icons right of oh I am this body, mind and name and I see all these other body, mind and names and my relation to them my own beliefs and ideas, concepts and my own resistances and all these things these are like the little icons on the VR and so a good way to sort of tune into this as we've been referencing is what happens when all of those things are dissolved all of those all those solidities are decontracted, they're unwinded unnotted, untangled and then the headset knows itself and also does not know how crazy mysterious whatever this is is yeah and it's a big thing to ask a headset a headset entity to ask itself are you actually your identity and location yeah so that's if you really want to get to the needle fast, ask yourself that and inquire into that and retain a high level of focus during do nothing and vipassana style inquiry and very quickly you'll unwind it more and more and you'll become more kind of bouncy and playful and loving in the whole field and it's just you seek, but you're kind of looking for it in the VR headset itself instead of in unwinding all of the contractions of the headset yeah, or just ask the VR person how he's standing to be his friend or him on the VR side things that they care about the depth and distance and locations in the video game are actually there yeah waking up from the identification to that one character and that's where why people call it God realization you wake up to the entire field of experience the totality of experience no inside or outside no center no locations no directions there's not even a source of attention because every single particle every single corner in this VR all the way it's not like the main character of VR it's actually looking at other characters or interacting with them it's just a whole game let's just play it and knowing it's I love that I'm going to put that as the quote in the thumbnail waking up from identification with the one character yeah I mean it's not that the character can still be there it's just like now you can express it even more freely yeah another video game in our is waking up it's kind of like beating the game and then you turn into it you jump out of the screen now you have all those decos not the finite yeah and when you talked about this earlier I think it's so beautiful is that the sharpness of the intellect as it sort of drops it relaxes itself and its attachment to all the icons and whatnot and drops more into the heart and into the gut and into emptiness and love everything as it does that it's inexplicable it's like a new dimension of sage-ness opens up and like child like innocence is re-emerged and so like when someone starts when they say something like do you even know about this thing and then you just look at them and you're like no I don't know what is that I don't know as soon as you say that you learn that the power is actually there that's where the power is to say that it's not to fight back with a sword I know what it is I'm good I know and something totally new as an intelligence way more more intelligent I was trying to humane to like it's just a speckle of a toss in this infinite field even a shapeshifter right even just if I go like that thing changes forever it's almost like if you play in the badminton game you sort of think that the badminton game exists and then when the badminton moves the whole war renders that's the experience right now it's like the past and the future even distance, space, time all that stuff is constant so like Maryland rent doesn't exist even bathroom rent until I render it right so it's like this moment when we render and that's another really good analogy for like impermanence yeah it's just constant never stays for like a minute or second but then you can't realize impermanence without a bizarre center because the center is always going to try to like take snapshots of the world solidified yeah recently you also shared it like as you just spoke about it as a rendering it's that the whole universe moves to the bathroom the whole as the universe moves that's what it's the actual fundamental energy or vibration or the atomic etc that are doing the moving itself to that location to empty its bladder yeah and that's also independent origination as well it's like when you walk and this is infinite webs of conditioning and cosmic fragments making every little thing happen and then just going to the bathroom pooping it's just the universe pooping and then again it's really hard to to communicate to the people because if you just tell this to someone who hasn't gone through this I think you're talking about like real fragments or like well there's there's a really I feel more and more openness to this as the way that it's expressed becomes more and more clear when we were sharing that there's a going to the bathroom what's being shared is that there's a dependency on this planetary water cycle and the consumption of fresh water from the faucet systems of Taiwan or the United States and then there's the dependency of the bladder reaching a point that then wants to as it expanded now it wants to contract out the water into the plumbing system that then goes right back into the hydrological cycle after a purification of sorts so meaning that you're the whole web of dependencies that you're that whole endless infinite web that is that sensate experience and if the identity is sort of decentralized to that web it can feel more free and more empty and more loving and effortless and flow not a doer and the center and so I feel like the analogies are becoming more and more available as though the bite of the apple and I feel like we've also talked about this but that comes from the whole dependent web of the agricultural system itself and the transit the supply chains the grocer the monetary system the exchange of the money for it or growing it on the apple tree either scenario and then it goes through the digestive process and it empties itself so and it goes right back into the cycle so that tuning into dependent origination and these webs that are endless in all directions that make the morphing of sensate reality that decentralizing your identity into that is it's wholeness it's love so that I feel like it's becoming more readily available recognizing these dependent webs and how everything shapeshifts like that and sort of being the energy that's doing that shapeshifting yeah but they didn't even impermanence you know as well because there's not even time that's that's been like non-rising like passing on around but it I think everything that everything on the conventional level still stands it's not like we talk about anything wherever you don't have a self there's no spending time me on the conventional level they still play with it yeah right yeah and being and not being at the same time exactly absolute and relative at the same time and whatever that is and isn't is blah blah blah that you can't say and you can sort of feel and be that and not be it but it's I've noticed that actually being more tuned into the absolute reality is sort of what the relative reality is in a sense seeking so yeah so don't get pulled out of that just because there's a ton of social conditioning that is saying that oh you can't not be your name you can't be unilocal and non-local you can't do that and then getting sort of pulled out of that to play in some relative game when all it sort of wants is to watch you just spaciously love their statements and sort of let them gravitate more and more towards a deeper insight into an absolute reality so when you talk about proliferation I like to put it the way that sensations stop cleaning out the sensations so I get the microscopic sensual level sensual at the microscopic level of sensation there's no more because all cleaning comes from sensations trying to entangle themselves entangle themselves and try to try to that's the source of all I think that the thing that Robert Berger talked about is the completest sensation of any sensation any cluster of sensation trying to respond to another cluster entangle another cluster and one of the last things to entangle is this direction of it even after the sphere is dissolved there still can be a little almost like a ghost somewhere in there that wants to feel like it's looking at things or sometimes things in here might get sweater-fied when you're certain things especially things that you're conditioning you can sort of sense this like trying to pretend to look at that object from the subject so that arrow the picture that the guy from that's such a good one put that in right here one of the best ones what is it the first stage is like the ego convention the second stage everything mind where you see yourself in everything and you're conscious to expand to be everything that's the captain's self and then there's the no self without a direction of attention I think that's great great it's just that the air of attention even just like sitting down trying to meditate you see that just direct attention to the object of meditation it's also just happening by itself and to get rid of the to dissolve the fear all of the just a sense of the intention of doing something where exactly is the point that you made this decision versus that decision you can't find that point just like you can't find the point because past or between when this thing it's the same thing goes along with the decision to think too right I mean I did this neuroscience experiment it was one of the most famous experiments like when I tell people about this sponsorship like my dad he's an athlete I just tell you to press the button and then you press the button when you would like to care and then measure your brain waves if somebody like breaks and runs maybe it's just for you you can't move your finger press that button but that decision to press this button over that button it's already happening before you consciously decide to press that button it's really good but with meditation you can actually see that play out just try it before you pick up your phone you can see the intention of that it's happening before you move your hand back on that phone but where is that intention of moving your hand to move that phone you can't trace it back to anything your imagination is dependent upon like infinite webs of conditioning you can't trace back to the source where it's like that's the source where I decide to move my hand what a great way to deconstruct the center and the arrow of attention yeah the center of attention is really crucial I feel like I'm talking about this because with the center of attention to construction most of it is of the background that's also one of the last ones to be called as the background of experience people who are like I was wearing those for god hit actually they still have the background as an object there's still a foreground or a subject that's really important to add really free itself to that background without the direction of attention there's no one in the center there's no subject objects so the background of foreground becomes one so now every sensation is wearing themselves without any sensation trying to take credit for knowing another concept of sensation and that's the iteration of commerce all commerce comes down to that really just sensation trying to entangle other sensations yeah yeah and then you see that there's not even you can't even watch thoughts anymore watch thoughts anymore because once you dissolve the observer or the direction of attention you realize that thoughts are embedded with sensations that simply cognize itself so you have a thought and then you think you have another you think you're watching that thought by doing mindfulness by applying the direction of attention to that thought but that thought is already gone by the time you do that so you have another thought of you imagining yourself watching that thought but those two thoughts A B are disconnected so it's not like thought A oh there's thought A now this is awareness this is the true self I'm disidentified from thoughts that's another illusion because the source of attention is another construct because even that act is proliferation there's a new identity here trying to like entangle this grasping exactly yeah all sensations simply liberate themselves there's no grasping anywhere that goes back to what we were saying earlier it's a random center arising to grasp onto a sensation and tell a story about it and that is also the next sensation the next whatever is arriving not just story but basically entangled right so you're literally viscerally entangled yeah I think it's always the physical entanglement that creates this that's why I keep the notion of this whole process of working in a very balanced process yes the equanimity is cellular it's cellular yeah it's a cellular like the only reason why I don't feel like your body is physical is another way to say it because of the solidity in the bottom line that's why body is going to look so powerful for me right that is the only thing I don't feel like the sky the physical that creates the contractions the tensions the separation it's all physical and all the traumas are physical exactly that's why the chakras are such an important thing it's not like chakras are different chakras that just build your body manifest into physical balls it can store somewhere in your spine right sky and lightness yeah when those solidities and contractions are proliferating just like a pure and raw sensate reality universe so many things I use to do that they just drop the way it's like a whole integration going back to the beginning it just happens by itself and the more it happens, it's like a snowball effect it's like a first you kind of have to cartoon it I got to say with that conditioning oh I get triggered here, I better not do that all that stuff first you kind of have to cartoon it and then after it's more like why is it level it's just automatic it's like why are we just not going to take you to places that isn't kind of lowest in the face itself at the fullest and the deepest and the most perfect in the headland even though ultimately you're the imperfection person you know what I'm saying it's like I dropped something I used to do that triggered me then it's not like I'm even trying to do that anymore it's like maybe an effort to like it's really weird but sometimes yeah there's nothing meditation is the best but in practice for integration yeah do you realize how much you want to contract contracting before you've been doing it before do you partially have meditation like you presuppose they know the potential keep in mind for this this moment you're trying to fabricate a meditator so you can dissolve it so you go on this path you like deliberately construct a spiritual circuit so you can dissolve it right right in the whole time there was no center no one yeah it's like a big joke right that non-centered no oneness is love I don't even know what it is it's a mystery it feels it feels like equanimity I think equanimity is everywhere love has its yeah it's love too it's like it's a little different from the kind of like the last stage when I was like being in a lot of culture that's why I don't use that word a lot it's cold love love is a great word for it but when you say love people are going to socialize with the kind of linear explosion all that's a part of the process I'm just saying it's a little distinct flavor there is a little distinct like you said but it's only different again it's just the level of how much everything is love up to a point when you feel like everything is love because you're still like usually the love is on the chest when you're still waking up on the chest that's why you talk to a lot of people about unquality and penis not all about love because the chest hasn't become love so they're here so that's the paradox about sexuality the feeling that you're experiencing is actually the part that you haven't felt you're still feeling the shock experiencing all those the solidity that it hasn't felt you're still talking about you haven't developed that that's in God yeah the whatever we can't equanimity happiness another yeah whatever you're feeling as a ground is the curricula for dissolution yeah yeah exactly that's really good right first to witness you're going to dissolve that now my ground is like is loving energy you're going to dissolve that but then the thing about this is like after you dissolve everything then when you put back those lens of perception they're like the intellect they become even more yeah even more like you know more pronounced more integrated fuller and the equanimity is also sort of the equalization that the uncreated is the creator, the unmanifest is the manifest that void is manifestation exactly spaciousness is stories of course all sensations appearance sources appear yes that's great it is what it is it's nothing behind and I love that the equalization is the equanimity oh that's great middle way again middle way again it's almost like when you talk about symmetry you know how those psychedelic people talk about symmetry I think the same thing kind of wrote the article you wrote an article about 5mm DNA 5mm DNA is like symmetrical like every point not just point 2 but points to itself so like at the end of suffering is to realize symmetry like the mind is only symmetrical when there's no grasping of one sensation to another sensation right and what we just said earlier reminds me of like just the perfect symmetry of the awareness nothing stands for anything else nothing grasping anything else everything stands alone by itself liberates itself in its own space which is nowhere that's nothing it's the relief that we seek and did you ever feel like there was a part of you that still like it's like you had all this energy seeking and sharing like realizing ins and whatever and then when I'm a Georgia Baptist did you feel like the rest of the conditioning wants to grasp everything and it feels like you feel kind of like like blue balls right yeah yeah yeah it feels like the surf it feels like the surfacing and the and the dissolving and sometimes the surfacing expresses itself and that's usually done in a in like a safe spacious container like a loving blanket like a loving warm blanket it feels like this is a grasp it's full of conditioning there's nothing to grasp but right right it's just it's like a constant like non-resistance a flow flowfulness like where that proliferation of grasping it's not it's kind of blue-bolly the surfacing can feel blue-bolly where the sense of self wants to like arise and wants to reconstruct itself but right it wants to create some sort of a new cyclone of whatever malevolences and stuff and then the only way to that's not the way right practice is my kind of direction attention every time we try to direct attention to something start to the process and it's like it's kind of kind of occupancy you can't really talk it's hard to talk to this people and it's not like it's hard to talk to that thing it's like the switch of people don't get what you're saying like in a sense the homies don't get what you're saying and like you can kind of go up to this people and be like oh I had to realize this it's like into this genre there's a new silence that don't and then you you also as well the spiritual people that you were talking to just look at you and they just see gone-ness and yet presence and then the regular people look at you and you just play with them in their regular socially conditioned thing because you can't not when it's brought up like just staring as the abyss at something solid that feels like it's solid doesn't it doesn't compute as I've done that before that solidity wanted to punch this in its face and so that's sort of the type of thing that that's this new whatever however it begins expressing itself in some way that plays in all of these capacities but another fun way to play with it is sort of like it's very iridescent it's very I guess it's also very textural and tasteful in a way yeah you know what you're saying like you really tuned into the sensation it's very visceral visceral that's why I can't describe not just the pros and cons of it that's why they call it a drama body it just feels like when you walk in the bathroom walking on the street it feels like the whole working body it's very visceral very it's not mental it's very concrete even though it's form but it's very it's made fresh air embodied yeah air embodied it's almost like air and solidified back in the form but you know the form is a hologram but it's still a texture yes it's not like doing the chess it's crazy all aligned you're like unbelievably tuned into the sensei right I gotta recharge my hope just give me one second the last thing we talked about I like that the physicality that's why they say chop wood give you water right it's just so grounded in everything they do yeah we've also been playing with it as an air element and an earth element Buddha had this inquiry dividing everything to like earth element fire element and what's another one earth, air, fire, water yeah so in the beginning stages of your inquiry kind of noting you just note everything oh this is you walking on the earth like oh this is earth element oh it's impersonal and you feel emotion oh this is just a fire element it's just the element of nature and then you feel like thoughts or whatever oh that's just the air element at the end the Buddha unified everything and said there's only the earth element oh right there's only what is this physicality yeah so even your thoughts or your emotions or like your highest states of consciousness when you get stuck up in them when you get contracted by them you just label them as oh that's just my thoughts, my feelings are no different from the trees the birds the clouds and the air is no different from the mud hence the natural state yeah it's like the air is full with endless symbols that can then be used if you find the needles in the haystack to decondition the physicality the earthiness of it and I love that just a new level of absolute perfection when doing nothing this is the freedom from the need to re-measure the need to measure the need to measure just going back to what I was saying before about the point and the circumference the relationship between the point and the circumference only exists because of the ego trying to measure it but when the proliferation of that center is gone everything you know is based on measurement like time, space the ego is based on measurement I'm better than you smarter than you, more spiritual advanced than you depth this is closer to me than that yeah that's good the cessation of measurement also the whole notion I'm trying to understand some question that's another question to answer all that wouldn't exist without measurements that's a pretty direct pointing the cessation of measurement yeah the cessation of measurement even like that's why you know in the middle of this talk you talk about how even letting go of infinity and like eternity even like that's why you know that still kind of presupposes a kind of measurement you know like endless space or like some kind of like time that's like you know that goes on forever it's timeless yeah that's why it's really hard to put into words because words in themselves are tools of measurements you know nice that's a great I feel like that's a great place to wrap it's a great pointer I mean what more can we like the end of measurement there's nothing much to say yeah exactly even the passion of it is like called constant I'm more concentrated this moment than the next I'm more awake yesterday than today fuck that's how measurements oh by the way did you see the new my gosh still haven't seen it yet it's on the list I've heard it's amazing though it's amazing yeah it's a really different take on Batman it's like a really good mixture in the middle way a really good middle way of Christopher Nolan's depiction of Batman realism and Tim Burton's depiction of Batman in like you know this fantastical like gothic imaginary environment because like criticism people had of like Nolan was like always too realistic so fucking weird I feel like Batman is out of place in this perfect order world because Christopher Nolan is very logical everything is straight line every cut is like totally like a left brain kind of filmmaker and then it works Batman definitely works but it's a sort of like a response it's an antithesis to Tim Burton's Batman Tim Burton's Batman is like super poetic in a sense like very theoretical and super right brain and the new one is like the Matt Reeves one is like a mixture of both yeah that's the progression of any path too you know like Hago say you have like a thesis and antithesis then you have synthesis so every system of learning or progression comes from that you know at first the dualities you know first you have this end of the duality and that end the fusion of the two that transcends both sides of the duality and I think the new Batman movie did but then the new Batman movie is going to become the new thesis and then in the future there's going to be an antithesis in response to that forming new thesis that's the evolution the progression of everything from the microscopic level to the macroscopic level to the cosmic level that's another way to perceive like contrasting expansion things and then like the mask of the Batman is like almost looks like Henry like the before like you can actually see his expressions really well before you can never really see what Batman is thinking when he's like in the suit but then for some reason the new version you can actually it's very mental it's like the most mental Batman it's just like thoughts there's a lot of like thoughts you know what does it really feel like psychologically to like be Batman right and I felt like Nolan's version was like very grand just like oh here's the sky view of Gotham City and it's like you never see any close-up of like Batman like picking his fingernail and shit like but then like in Mary's version you can see like this just like little details of like this little textures of sensations that like actually points to how Batman is feeling with the microscopic level it's really interesting yeah you should check it out nice and it's how movie is about like trauma release too it's just about it's about the the traumatized the traumatic about how Batman dissolves his conditioning I don't think they got into too much of that in the early release it's like Batman doing shadow work and it's very universal too I'm still only like 24% on my Arkham 9 game the game is fucking hard man it feels good feeling it like magnetism the more thing of that magnetism my pleasure I'm excited to I think this talk is very different from the other ones we had right I mean we get into some of the stuff but from a different like it's almost like coming in from the outside more now but also within as well it's both you know but also within as well it's both yeah both of those going back to like the thing with the right from the boundless from that outermost in and also from the inner yes expansion and contraction exactly yeah I think at the end your realization kind of just goes back into you it's like there's nothing outside you said ocean ocean absorbed back into the game yeah for those people that didn't know this analogy at first you're a droplet like the ego is the droplet and then as you go on the spiritual path the droplet goes into the ocean and then starts to dissolve into the ocean that's the process of the solution and they become the infinite ocean that's where the awareness, consciousness, God consciousness face you feel like you're everything but then the whole ocean is absorbed back into the drop and then by that point both finish out of it that also goes with the VR analogy that also goes with but it's not solipsism though but it's not solipsism it's not materialism either nor idealism I've been looking forward to how this would morph and it seems very fruitful and I'm really excited about discontinuing to blossom and us playing together in person and creating more just seeing what arises it's very it tastes really good, it feels really good it tastes like you, it tastes like home it just tastes like what you always are before the conditioning piled up so it's not like you're transcendent to some other role in Rome there is that but at the end that's what you have always been just you self or no self is what you are final words? let's do this little final bit so this is I think our fifth conversation in our series and it's a special series it's probably my favorite one on the channel thanks man I mean I have the most expressive talks with you I have the most talks with you I don't think I've ever done another podcast more than once that's so beautiful and I feel there's been a lot of good feedback so we would love to hear from you guys you guys want to drop a comment and let us know your take on this fifth episode we would love to hear from you also let us know how you feel about the evolution of these conversations because it's been a while since the last one we would love to hear from you about that and I don't know any ideas on collaborations that you guys want to see how you'd like to see this continuing to blossom and play and also if you felt like this episode was insightful for you like the video if you haven't yet, share the video that's another really great way to continue generating the catalyst and also Franck's social channels are all linked below definitely check out some of his most recent content on youtube his most recent video distillations have been fantastic so go and check those out if you haven't yet and also go and check out his instagram, his website go and check him out follow there also Franck's still doing coaching so send dm over for I think email is better for that I don't check my dm so much anymore do you have my website? yeah my website I have a coaching thing on my website yeah yeah yeah that's probably the best way I mean reaching out yeah I think for email email you can find my email on website exactly and I'm just really grateful for us and this vibe so good and hopefully it's coming soon it's coming nice yeah that feels really complete you can find our links also in the bio below just really feel the perfection when doing nothing yeah stop measuring good stuff bye guys infinite love bye