and be open. Good morning, everyone. Today is the February 18th meeting of the elementary school building committee. And as in my role as chair, my the first thing I need to do is make sure the members of the committee can see, can hear and be heard. And I'm just going to call out names as I see them on the screen. And I will start with Paul. Present. Sean. Present. Jonathan. Present. Tammy. Present. Rupert. I am present and accounted for. That's great. Mike. Present. Ben. Also present. Phoebe. From here. Great. And Alicia. Present. Great. So we're a few people will be joining us later, and I may just make sure they can be heard as they join.  And then Margaret. I'm turning it over to Margaret for some opening comments just to anchor everyone on where we are on the timeline. And then a quick review of what we're doing today and looking into the future. So Margaret, you're on. Okay, everybody. Good morning. I have up the agenda for this, this morning. And I'm going to actually, I want to just recap briefly, but I'm going to start with what's at the bottom. So kind of give everybody a better sense going forward, what we're doing. I sent an email last night, which was an effort to kind of summarize a little bit, kind of ground you for the meeting today. But, you know, in a nutshell, we're in this first initial phase, which is the preliminary design program, which is, you know, due diligence on the buildings, reviewing and finalizing the ed programming, ed program beginning a list of the spaces that are required to satisfy the ed program and identifying the options that are going into this first submission. So the meetings that are coming up. So we are meeting again on the fourth, on the 11th. And I won't go into detail, but in, you know, in a nutshell, it summarized here at the next meeting, we're really going to be looking at the alternatives at the 11th meeting, we're going to be reviewing final alternatives, which is just to say, which options are we going to study? And probable costs or estimated costs, it's a very high level conceptual cost, because obviously there are drawings really to look at that. Those, those meetings are sandwiched in between other meetings that are going on to school committee meetings. And then we have a target date for the submission. So that's kind of the big picture. Once that submission as we're going to start this next phase, which is called the preferred schematic report, which is moving towards the preferred alternative, that submission is due to the MSBA in the end of June. So we have about three months to kind of figure out what it is, figure out approximately what it's going to cost and for you all to make an official vote on it. So this first phase has a lot of interaction with the school committee, because it's the school committee's role to look at the program, at the educational program. But it's going to be, and once we get to the PSR phase, we're really going to be, it's really going to be fully in the building committee's charge. So there's been a lot going on. I'm not going to go through the details because I summarized some of the background last night in my email. But just to talk to go into a little more detail about what we're going to do today. So Donna's team is going to talk about the preliminary space summary, which is one of the components of this preliminary design program submission. They have begun to study what those options might look like and want to talk about some of that. Jonathan's going to give us a report on the net zero subcommittee. And if we need to, we can sort of go back and take a look at the priority and criteria matrix. So that is kind of the overview. There are a couple of invoices to look at. I sent you all this morning. Do you want to be able to see them on your screen? And that is it. So with that, I'm going to turn this over to Donna. Okay. And I see, and Margaret, I see Sean's hand is up. So I'm just, and please raise your hands if you want to jump in. Thanks, Kathy. I just wanted to confirm. So is March 4th the first time sort of a professional or cost estimate from the designer will be revealed or presented? Yeah, that's correct, Sean. So with that, we understand everyone is so anxious to see the costs. And they're not really, they're order of magnitude right now. We, like you, what you'll see that we haven't really drawn anything. And so we are engaging our professional cost estimator, Anne Fogarty, who is going to take the information that we have, which is pretty much going to be on a square footage cost, because we don't have all the detail yet. And he's going to take a look at market conditions, any specific or unique criteria pertaining to your project. We don't have the sites fully developed, but we know a little bit about the sites. So we'll take some of that into consideration, but it hasn't fully been vetted. So yes, but we have started that conversation with him. And even though it's cost per square foot, you know, there is a lot of detail that goes into it. So he needs about a week and a half, two weeks to pull together, even just in order of magnitude. So I know some people have been like, well, give us a range of what the cost per foot is. And no, that sounds great. I'm patient. I'm not in a rush for it. I just there's a lot of sort of people are there's a lot of, you know, informal estimating going on. And I just want this committee to know and the public to know that the first time we'll get a sort of professional estimate is that meeting. And I think that's what we should be focused on. Thank you. Thank you. We've been working to get a lot of fact funding. And maybe that will just I can start with that conversation is the last couple of months have been fact finding understanding the educational program needs, understanding what the town's desires are for net zero and other requirements. It's not just about net zero, understanding a little bit more about the site, the traffic, etc. So we have to go as deep as how many staff are going to be in this building so we can fully understand how big the parking lot needs to be, right? So I do want to say thank you to a lot of folks that have been working behind the scenes and especially Mike Morris and his team because this this first phase has really been heavy lifting on their part. So, so with that said, if we're good, we'll just jump into the program. Can I jump in for one second? Kathy, do you want to see if Simone can be heard? Thanks, Mike. Simone, we just I just want to make sure you can hear hear and be heard. So if you just indicate that would be great. I can hear and be heard. Welcome. Thank you. So I think Tim was Tim's in charge of the presentation. I have the screen to share, I will do that now. And, you know, as people to extent they looked at their email late last night, I sent out what were very preliminary slides. So this is this is the official set and we will be posting it. So go ahead, Tim. So the first process as everyone has alluded to, and we've stated before, we're in the preliminary design program phase. And really it's a focus on the educational program, which establishes the educational needs for the school and the district as you combine two schools. And then what that translates to for space needs, square footage, spatial relationships and adjacencies. And we're going to continue this conversation. We had a great last visioning meeting yesterday with staff, but but that's not the end of the conversation. So we'll continue to develop the spatial relationships and adjacencies, which will set the stage for how the building really all comes together. Go ahead, Tim. And and again, you know, the educational program is is it's not just about this building, but how it is this new construction or new school combined school supports the educational programs district wide. Again, program relationships and adjacencies, which ultimately define the square footage for the project. So we we're going to we we are required to look at two enrollment alternatives or options, the 165 students. And today, we're not really focusing on that. I think everyone including MSBA will recognize designing a school for 165 students isn't really the right solution for MSBA or or for the town. But they want that as a cost basis to evaluate moving forward. Our focus will be on combining both the Fort River and Wildwood schools K five with an enrollment of 575. Donna. Yeah. Can you just give a super high level explanation of the 165? How we got there? Yes, which it was given to us by the MSBA, but sure. Sure. So originally, it was a K six with 320 students. And what MSBA does is take your entire enrollment district wide enrollment, looks at the capacity at all of your schools. So in this instance, if it was just Fort River, they would look at Wildwood, Crocker Farm and Fort River. One sixth grade moves to the middle school. MSBA says logically that creates excess space in both Crocker Farm and Wildwood. So if it's two, I'm not even sure if it's two or three classrooms per grade. And those students move to the middle school, you now have two or three classrooms per school extra. So therefore you can redistrict and move students around. So to fill those that capacity of both of the other schools, which and then in turn reduces the enrollment needs here. So not only do you reduce a full grade from 320, let's just say it's 20 students per grade. So now you would be at 280. You then take some of the students that you would need here and redistrict them to the other two schools, if that and that's how we came up with that. I know the MSBA did issue a revised enrollment certificate that does need to be approved, signed and sent back to them. So we have that officially now. Thank you. And I just want to add for context. So this came up at the there's a kickoff meeting for the process with the MSBA. And they brought this to the table and kind of announced they were doing this. So it was there were some eyebrows raised. They explained their thinking. But since then we've gone ahead and process the paperwork based on what they are offering the community. And just to add to that, the reason why they modified it was because the school committee has voted to move the sixth grade to the middle school. So I don't want to say it was our request, but we did ask for that that a K6 model doesn't work anymore based on school committee policy. Yeah, it was taking that action and sort of making it logical within their the way they think about it. Right. Okay. So we're going to focus on the combined 575 K through five. All right, Tim. So at the very beginning of the conversation, we take what the district's class size policies are, and there's a range for the lower grades K through one, two through three, and then fourth through six. We're keeping sixth grade in there because that's where we are right now, recognizing down below that that we don't include the sixth grade in the in the calculations. So for Fort River only at 165 students, you take that total enrollment divided by the sixth grades, and you arrive at an average class number of students in a grade across K through five, you take one of the class size policy numbers of number of students in a classroom. And we took a middle of the road of 19 for the younger grades two and three at 20, and then 20 for grades four and five, you take the number of students divided by the number of students per classroom, and you arrive at the total number of classrooms required per grade. So for the Fort River only, you know, you have 1.42 to 1.35 1.4 classrooms per grade. Obviously, you can't do a half size classroom or split the classes like that. So you round up. So for a Fort River only 165 K through five school, you would need two classrooms per grade at a total of 12 classrooms. And then you apply the same principles for the combined Fort River and Wildwood schools, and you'll see taking the same parameters that you really need five classrooms per grade. And as soon as you can, I just want to recognize Allison has joined us and make sure sorry to interrupt. Thank you. So what you'll see here for the combined school of 575 is the requirement for five classrooms per grade. And we've played with the numbers as far as class size policy, 21 students, 22, 23, 24. And it really doesn't change the narrative until you get to 24 students in the upper grades where perhaps you only need four classrooms per grade. But what that does is you're already at your highest end of your class size policy. And should enrollment shifts change and or you've got a larger grade or a bubble is what we call it comes through, you're going to exceed your class size policy before you even start. So and everyone is supportive and MSBA agrees that you want to have the same number of classrooms per grade. So this is really only part of the conversation. You can go to the next time. So I think everyone has the detailed space summary sheet and happy to go through it at a point in time if it's appropriate. There's a lot of information in there. And I guess what I would say is the number of general education classrooms is really only part of the story. There's core academic spaces, special ed, and then supporting spaces are music, P, et cetera, all listed in the left hand column. What we did, this is what was presented to school committee on February 8th. And so we've been working diligently behind the scenes to see how we can reduce the group's square footage and we'll be doing that. Go ahead, Paul. So can you just comment on where it differs between, I'm just looking at the Fort River Wildwood combination, where it differs between MSBA guidelines and what is provided here. Just, there are a couple of things to just sort of explain why that's different. Yep, absolutely. So the MSBA guidelines are not complete. And MSBA intentionally leaves room for filling in their guidelines once they understand what each individual district's needs are. For example, they want to see that you do need five classrooms per grade. Right now, they're showing, I think it's 26 classrooms in total, not 30 classrooms. That's one deviation. They are informing us that we need an STE classroom, but yet they don't factor that in to their total gross square footage under core academic. They don't recognize ELL or some of the Title I resources required to support your program. And they don't do it maliciously or malintended. They do it because they want to see what each district's educational program is, and then they'll modify it or accept your ed program and accept the square footage for each category or program space. I'm going to pause. I see Phoebe's better hand up and it's easier to have the conversation now. Phoebe, go ahead. So I think that we have gotten some feedback primarily by email about the need or the request to really go through all of the square footage numbers. So I think it's important for us as a committee to be able to do that. So if we can build that in somewhere, I think that that's going to be something that is going to be key. And I think that a lot of the questions that have surrounded cost have to also do with, you know, if we can go through the square footage needs, wants, all of that, then I think that alleviates some of the cost questions that we've also gotten. I think that there's some confusion about exactly what the need is for square footage. And so, you know, Donna, you said that we can go through that if at some point if it's needed, I think it is needed. And I think that if we can figure out a way to make sure that everybody understands, you know, where our absolute must haves versus what our needs are versus what our wants are and all that kind of stuff, I think that it's easier to kind of get everybody on the same page. So I don't know that now is the time to do that, but I think it is something that is hugely important and is going to be needed as we look towards, you know, bringing this out to the community and explaining how much of the cost as it relates to the square footage is going to be picked up by us versus the MSBA. Right. So thank you, Phoebe, and I really wasn't 100% clear when I started. This was the educational program needs or square foot program spaces that we brought forward to the school committee on February 8. Since then, we've had numerous, numerous conversations about how we can reduce the overall program area, which translates to the gross square footage. So we have another meeting with school committee on Tuesday night. And if anyone wants to hear those conversations, I think that would be really helpful for a lot of you to see the thought and the conversations that go behind all of these program needs. But this is not the final number. And we're going to we're continuing to work to see how we can best achieve the educational program and the most efficient square footage. Mike. Mike's hand is up. Yep. I see Allison's hands up. So I'll defer to Allison. I won't lose my comment. Allison. Yeah, I just want to emphasize because I have been seeing some of the conversations that have been going around in terms of the square footage. And I understand the want versus need, but I also want us to understand that when people are saying what they need, and then it's described as a want, I don't know if that's actually fair to our children. So we have a very complex student profile that needs to be met by these spaces. I think that if we are going to do this well, I'd like us to highlight where the student needs come in. Because if we start saying, well, we'll just combine this, you know, these kids can work together. Well, no, the reasons why I think of being described the way they are is because there is a need. It's not what is an ideal request. So I just want us to honor some of the things that have been requested in understanding that people have been functioning under combining and making compromises and seeing the outcomes of that when you see things don't go as well as you know they could go if you saw children able to have the spaces that they actually need. So I just want to emphasize that there's a reason why things are being described the way they are and it's not because there's a people have an abundance of wishless items that they're trying to. So I just want to make sure that said. Thank you. Thank you, Alison, Mike. Thanks. I'll be brief. I'll try to be brief, not easy for me on this topic. So I think there will be a, as Donna said, there'll be a school committee meeting on Tuesday. We'll be presenting some reductions in square footage based on the feedback we've received. And we'll be, I think we'll be getting to a draft that's below what the town estimated when it was looking at square footage compared to other projects. I don't know how the school committee responded to that. I'm not going to be bed on this body. He's here as one member. And that all those will be on our website later today, you know, for our meeting on Tuesday. But I also think when we think about costs, there are many, many cost drivers that aren't about square footage. And I think sometimes we're, the conversation gets a bit myopic on that. The reality is, and I'll make more comments this on Tuesday that there's many, many factors that affect the overall cost, some of which the school committee has in terms of the educational program as Alison indicated, some of which this committee has in terms of building site construction model, and some of which lie with the town and the town council. I'm not going to get into details on that again. I'll speak to that on Tuesday. So I think the conversation about cost is obviously really important. And from my end, I want to do what the educational right thing to do is understanding the cost conscious nature of we have a lot of projects going on in the town. But the core driver of it in terms of square footage is that the cost escalation on building projects everywhere has gone up immeasurably or not immeasurably, it's able to be measured it's a lot in the last couple of years. And so I think that's something that we can't control. Right, we can't know, well, if we get this, this contractor, it'll magically be $350 per square foot, it's not going to happen. So I think that's one of the challenges that I think is not about pitting sides against sides, it's just the reality is this project's going to be a lot more expensive than if it was 10 15 years ago or even three years ago. That's no one's fault. It just is what it is. And I think that's the challenges we're faced with. So I'll be bringing with with Donna and the team to Tuesday, some reductions in square footage for the school committee consider I can't pretend how or project how they'll respond to that. We'll lose a lot of flexibility in the building. I do have some concerns, you know, you think about Crocker Farm preschool was built in the last 20 years, it was built with four classrooms, it was a belief around inclusion. So all the pullout spaces are incredibly tiny. And when we think about Crocker Farm being overcrowded, it's not because of the K to six population. It's because the preschool rightfully has needed to usurp many more spaces than it had when that building was designed. Educational philosophies change and it's a 50 year, you know, at least a 50 year building. So it's a really complex set of factors. Phoebe, I'm really glad you raised this topic because I think it is something that's getting a lot of interest. But I do think there's a broader set of of conversations that need to happen. Some here, some with the school committee and some with the town council on how to approach having this project be the best project could be conscious of the cost and the town's ability to pay for it. And so I think the other thing Phoebe mentioned that I want to make sure gets answered is the point about MSBA. And if we go over MSBA guidelines, does that mean MSBA doesn't reimburse? And I think that's a really that's a question I'm getting a lot too Phoebe. So I'm really glad you raised it. I see your hands up. So I don't want to take more time. But I wonder if if Margaret or Donna could could address if there are square footage that does go over the guidelines. Does that mean automatically it's not reimbursable? Right. I hadn't finished my slide. So that's okay. But no, it's helpful and maybe Phoebe, go ahead, go ahead. And then and then I'll wrap up the slide. Yeah, yeah, I was just going to say thank you for, you know, doing that after I speak. I was just just wanted to also sort of quantify what I said what I what I said and then heard back in that I don't think anybody is questioning what our children need. I want to be very clear about that. I mean, I have three kids. I would never question what my children needs. And I wouldn't expect anybody else to either. I also my husband and I own a construction company. So I get those costs as well. I what is important to me is that as a committee as a school building committee, as a school committee, as town counselors or whoever else has to be involved in all of these things, that we are individually and as a group, abundantly clear on what the needs are, and where those things are going where and how they're going to be implemented. Because as we've seen before in this town, if we're not abundantly clear on those things, we are not. I mean, I think everybody feels like, yes, we need a new school, but we have to get to a point where everybody, whether they have children or not, is on board with this. And that regardless of whether we think it should be that a big piece of that is going to be expense. So we have to be very clear so that when we do get community members asking us about this, we each of us individually and together can say without any question, here are the needs of our kids, here are the needs of our staff, our teachers, our administration, everybody. And here is why it needs to be this way. Because if we can't do that with all of the reasoning behind it, we have an uphill battle from the start. So we just need to be all of these conversations have to be happening out in the open. And every single one of us has to be very clear on this, because otherwise, we're going to be in trouble again. And so that's really more of what we need to get to. Thanks. Sure. And thank you, Phoebe. And again, this is an ongoing dialogue we're having with the school committee. The school committee is the body that needs to per MSBA guidelines is the body that needs to approve the educational program, which drives the program needs translated into square footage, right? So, so every body within the town has, I don't want to say different responsibilities, but the school committee needs to approve the educational program and say, yes, this this reflects our policies, right? So let me just quickly go through a highlight some of the differences. And again, as I started, MSBA guidelines, the column that that large matrix that was sent out that this is just taking the total square footage or the total net for area of each of the categories of that very large spreadsheet with that said, if you look at the column that says MSBA guidelines, you will see it's incomplete. And it's intentionally incomplete because every district's needs are different. And that's why they won't weigh in on your ELL needs, they won't weigh in on your Title One resource, whether it's a literacy specialist, math specialist, any of those needs. So MSBA sits back, they say fill out the sheet on your side of the column, we'll look at your educational program, we'll agree or have comments as to why do you need so much space that doesn't align with your educational program. But if you have programs currently in the district, and you have staffs to support these programs in the core academic and special education categories, then they will support your educational program, they will participate at their reimbursement level for all of those spaces. So the other thing is under special ed, MSBA just puts a formula in there based on the number of students recognizing that every district or every building is different. And so they won't even really weigh in on the special ed spaces that are required. That's the Department of Education, Department of Ed or DESI, Elementary and Secondary Education. And they actually weigh in on the special education requirements. They want to ensure that these students have the same access and equal spaces as the gen ed students. So that's why you're going to see such a divergent difference between the column that says River Wildwood Schools at MSBA standards versus MSBA guidelines. Kathy. Donna, so I just Donna has explained this to me once before. So I want to feed back to you what I think you just said that once MSBA and DESI look at this, they will be scrutinizing these. And to the extent they feel that any of these are too high, they're going to be coming back to us asking for a rationale on it. And does that mean or has that ever meant that numbers change in that review process? They could change. Thank you, Kathy. They could change. In our experience with MSBA, they'll ask for clarifying questions. They'll have clarifying questions that are responded to. And we've never included space needs or square footage in the core academic and special ed that MSBA has not supported. There are districts that will say that they want a gym larger than 6,000 square feet. And MSBA says, well, we're only going 6,000. So the extra 300 there is for storage and for the PE teacher. So when you see the categories, these numbers are all rolled up for the individual space needs within each category. But MSBA says you need a 6,000 square foot gym to at elementary school level. And some districts say, well, we don't have a community gym. So we want to make it 12,000 square feet. And MSBA says, okay, but we're not participating in the other 6,000 feet. And Donna, can I just add, they don't say you need, they say a guideline for a school of the sizes. Well, from an educational perspective, they will tell you that you at 575 students, you can adequately support your PE, your FIS ed program, having two sections occurring simultaneously. And that's 6,000 square feet. I mean, there's really some rationale behind it. And that's why they want to see your educational program as well. One, to make sure that you have the staff to support it. Because they're not going to build something that you can't support. This all actually came out of something that occurred at the very beginning of MSBA's existence is a district went and built this beautiful large building, and they couldn't open it because they didn't have the resources to staff it. So MSBA wants to make sure that A, it's a program that you need, and that it can be supported, operational, and you have staff to support it. So the two categories that they will work with the district on is core academic and special education. And our experience, we've never had core academic or special ed not be supported and reimbursed by MSBA. So if we could just quickly go through some of the other ones, MSBA will say based on 575 students, you know, adequately could, you know, need two art rooms and two music rooms. And they recognize that right now, just as our first pass on the square footage needs or the program needs. The school department has said, you know what, we only need one art room. And we're going to utilize the STEM room to support the overflow that is that may or may not occur in the art room. Scheduling is a really big component in all of this. The health and PE, again, we're not exceeding MSBA guidelines, the media center, not exceeding their guidelines. The dining, you can actually see we've reduced the square footage a little bit or the net for area. Why? Because MSBA says you can have up to two seedings of lunch per day. 575 students, there's a lot of kids to put in the cafeteria with only two sessions, two lunch seedings per day. I don't know anyone any any school that would do that. And so again, school department said that we have three seedings per day. We want the space to be large enough that we could have an all school assembly, butts on the floor, and that we can gather the school in the cafeteria. There'll be a stage there. But we don't need the excess space because we'll never have two seedings of lunch throughout for the school. That's why those numbers are different. Medical and admin spaces were not exceeding custodial maintenance. We're going along with, we know that there's never enough storage or maintenance spaces throughout the project, but we maintain and stay within those guidelines. And then the other thing, excuse me, the other thing that comes up is you end up with your subtotal program area. So you'll see for Fort River based on the educational program and the space needs, you have 75,843 net for area, which is the spaces inside the building. There's a grossing factor. So what that is is all of your corridors, your bathrooms, your non program spaces, your boiler, your, I shouldn't say boiler, sorry, your mechanical spaces, all of the spaces that are required for circulation, toilets, operation of the building, that now has to be factored in as you figure out how big the overall building it is. MSBA up to 1.5 grossing factors. So you take the 75,843 net floor area, you multiply that by 1.5, and that's how we arrive at the gross square footage of the building. If I could just add, it's also wall thicknesses, which is not insignificant. So, you know, and as we think about thermal insulation, et cetera, and the walls get thicker, right, that's part of your grossing factor. I mean, it's everything. It's what it takes to provide a physical space. So we're at about 113,765. This is our first pass. Again, we'll be going back to school committee on Tuesday night with some modifications to that and how creative the school department has gotten to still deliver the same services in a little bit less space. The MSBA guidelines, again, if you look at their spreadsheet, you'll see that they, for whatever the formula is, doesn't necessarily work depending on the number of students, but they were saying that, you know, you only need 85,000 square feet of space. But that's based upon just the guidelines up above. That's not taking into consideration your specific needs. However, MSBA also goes on to say, don't listen to the grossing factor that's on the spreadsheet, we'll support up to 1.5 grossing factor. And that is really the lowest that we can really go. Again, recognizing everything as Ricky even pointed out the thickness of the walls. Our goal is always to get it to 1.499 and come in shy of that. But it's extremely difficult as you build in all the circulation, the services, it has to be completely accessible, right? The quarters need to be so wide. It's extremely challenging to arrive at a gross square footage less than 1.5. You can call on them, Donna, great. Thank you. Hi. Thank you for this. This is very helpful. I'm curious, my understanding is that the MSBA is expecting this to be a 50-year building and that they require us to build in future capacity. How does that figure into this whole process? Thank you. Good question. And that is one of the responses that we'll have. I'm not sure if it's a PSR or a schematic design, but they are going to ask where your future expansion can occur. You can look at it two ways, three ways maybe. The first one is you see that we've calculated five classrooms per grade and we have utilized a lower class size part of the lower number of the class size policy, right? So if I'm just going to pick on fourth and fifth graders, if they're saying it's 20 to 24 students per classroom, if you increase that to 23, 24, you're still within MSBA guidelines, right? So let's just say that's four students per classroom at five classrooms per grade times six grades. There's some expansion opportunities without necessarily impacting the needs of the other core aspects of the building. You can still provide the programs for RPE lunch, all of those within the overall square footage of your current space. The other consideration will be strategically as we think about where we're putting this building or expanding the current building, where future expansion can be, right? There have been some districts that have said we know we're going to expand probably down the road so we're consciously going to ask you to design the cafeteria a little bit larger now so your core spaces can accommodate future growth and we recognize that MSBA might not participate in that. But we know down the road in 10, 15 years we're going to need another classroom for a grade or whatever it is, right? So we will strategically say or demonstrate where an expansion can occur and that's something to consider. The other consideration is as a consolidation you still have the Crocker farm so we would also say okay well if you do have expansion what are the opportunities at Crocker farm? PB. Hi just trying to get clear still. So this goes to, this information goes to the school committee next week. When did the details, you sent us the, sorry I'm just trying to, the revised space summary and that's what we ultimately our committee votes on if I'm correct. Okay yes. No so the school committee votes, the school committee votes on the educational program the space needs. The school building committees charter really a Margaret feel free to chime in is your responsibility is to ensure that the school committees vote that we don't exceed the gross square foot guidelines per MSBA the 1.5 you take the program you make sure that it's built in the most cost effective and contextually appropriate sighting of the final solution but it's not the school building committees charge to say we want to reduce the gross square footage of the building that's not the school committee's charge. You vote to accept the preliminary design program and but you don't say we want the building to be 110,000 square feet. And that partnership is intentional which is as you can imagine it's to ensure that the what's driving the project is the educational is education right so it's a it's an intentionally introduced division of responsibility. So but Phoebe you will within the charge of the school building committee right select a renovation addition or new construction or what what site what you feel is the most cost effective solution working again in tandem with other partners such as the net zero folks and other charters or desires or bylaws of the town so once once that's why we needed this the educational program first is to make sure we're building a school we're not we're not building a rec center we're not building right we're building a school and MSBA wants to make sure that the building supports your educational program so that's why you know it really is logical it's a logical process that you start with the educational program that will inform the size of your space needs and that will inform the overall size of the building the configuration of it there is a little bit of play there we want to work with the school department to make sure that we have the correct spatial relationships and adjacencies but you know the building committee will be involved in the overall you know massing of the building and how that will all play out so so as Margaret said there is overlap but the first part is making sure that we have the educational program that school committee Kathy sorry so Mike said earlier that he later on today I think will be the materials that are going to the school committee I will pay attention to it and it's not it hasn't been always easy for me to find where those materials are but I think I've figured out how to find them and if everyone in this committee will like I'll just send the link to those materials because that'll have both the written educational plan and to the extent there are choices being given on space that'll be in that and so and that meeting is Tuesday night at 6 30 might correct Mike so I just thought if you want to see you know that that first round that we had in our packets this is what they saw last time so if everyone wants to follow it I'll just make sure you know how to get the materials so I know we have some other fun stuff to talk about our do we have any more and this is so important so I I want to make sure that everyone is comfortable with it's really at this point the process where we are with it we're working to refine and reduce the overall program space needs as well as as the overall square footage of the building and again it's an iterative process we'll go before school committee on the 22nd next Tuesday and then we will be asking them for final approval on February 9th 8th maybe March 8th March sorry February god no we can't go back in time can we March 8th sorry so so they too are not going to give us a definitive at that at at next weeks but we will be utilizing based on the feedback we hear we need a square footage rough order of magnitude to give to our cost estimator to present to you with an option so we are going to have to you know plus or minus a thousand square feet we have to feed the cost estimator the number but the final vote will occur on March 8th I'm looking I made my screen big I don't see any other hands up Donna so I think we can move on okay thank you okay so Tim so we'll start talking about how the educational program informs the space needs spatial relationships adjacencies and the overall layout of the school and what this might demonstrate to you is what what you see in light purple and dark purple are your core academic and special education needs and you can see that and of course with the numbers but visually this supports that you are truly designing a building to support your educational program there there is not excess space within and you can see how core academic and special ed really are the focus of the building so these are based on the space summary that you just saw and they will be refined after we have input from the school committee on Tuesday night but right now this is showing the overall proportions of all the different space needs for each of the categories and we started the conversation yesterday was pretty exciting with the faculty on what what are what are your desires for organization of the building and your spatial relationships and how do you want to function as a grade and how do you want to teach vertical you know your vertical and horizontal collaboration what how might that help shape the look and feel of a building then we also want to talk about how we can make this a community resource so the gym the cafeteria your library or media center may also be a community resource so we also want to make sure that we design this in a sensitive way so that your core academic spaces can be closed off while the community at large can utilize the building so you can see how this is going to start to help form the shape of the building and if you go to the next slide now you'll start seeing how with the push and pull and the information we receive how this may start to inform the shape of the building having your core academic spaces that can be locked off from the community program spaces and how this may start to inform the size the shape the layout of the building what we're showing at the very bottom I don't know Tim's cursor can go along here I guess not is that these what we're showing down below are your kindergarten spaces you can see they're slightly larger and then grades one through five the size of the spaces are all the same both for flexibility you can move your grades around it doesn't matter you can have kindergarten and third grade you know one four or however you want to manage it but you'll see how what we're our goal is to make sure that we have the integrated special ed programs integrated into your core academic spaces and then ideally we want to try to make the building as efficient as possible because we have to stay within our 1.5 grossing factor so we can all safely say that a one-story option isn't a consideration and we're looking at both a two-story school and a three-story school and we'll we'll we have a couple of slides to talk to that now and you'll see how the number of stories will impact the site as as we look forward but maybe I'll just pause and see if anyone has any comments about how you know this is the thought process how we actually start arriving out laying out a building everyone wants to see options okay Tim you saw you as Donna said one of the obvious like largest factors of how much of the site is occupied by the different options is the shape of the building you know so as we go through with everyone and determine whether it's two or three stories that'll be a significant factor but there are just other significant factors that we want to touch on as we go through these slides we have a better understanding of your parking needs now so what we're going to show is a little bit bigger than we have shown on past iterations of site plans we've gotten initial feedback and we expect to report next week from our traffic engineer on how things are flowing so we have a better understanding moving forward we've had initial discussions with our engineers about stormwater management on both sites and how we're going to handle that and the amount of space that we end up paving or putting a building on has an impact so it all again ties back to others the two or three story new or renovated building and then we also need to talk about the program for the outside of the building we know that there's an emphasis on outdoor learning and it's going to be a big part of this site wherever it is but you know the specifics of it how much space that's going to take up how far it's going to be from the building where it's located on the site we have to discuss and work around and then community use of the sites for fields whether they're going to be replaced in kind at Fort River or adjusted either all things that we have to consider as we move things around on the site and then of course there's considerations of how we're going to meet the town's energy goals the geothermal field that's used is going to take up some space as will an array of photovoltaic panels here's an iteration of wildwood that pushes along what you saw last time we met the parking has been increased to about 170 spaces to better suit the staff that will be in the building this particular option shows a two-story building while it is a two-story building the program is typically not divided evenly between the first and the second floor just because there are things that are two-story spaces and there are things that are going to exist on the first floor like a lobby that make the first floor a little bit larger and if the classrooms for the kindergarten are larger things don't always stack so if you do have 113 thousand square foot program your footprint is typically going to be a little bit more than half of that for two stories so that's what this is showing so we still have with the updated information room on wildwood to accommodate all of the things we need to the flexibility to use the fields at the middle school for geothermal will make things easier but it's certainly possible to accommodate onsite this is showing a little bit longer queuing around traffic for drop-off our initial existing conditions report from our traffic engineer is going to reflect that most of the queuing now happens on site which is great for movement but when with an addition of 225 students obviously that is going to change so you know we need to account for that in the design going forward and can you just talk about the hot is it the Hawthorne site because I know that's been brought up the Hawthorne site has been mentioned and we are looking at it and looking to get a little more information on it that is to the southwest of the site it was mentioned as a site for elements of our you know energy goals possibly geothermal or solar it is a little bit far away from the building for it to be efficiently used for geothermal and whether or not it's the highest and best use of that site to put solar on it remains to be seen that being said some part of the outdoor program of the school might be possible but it is across the access drive to the head start obviously the fields at the middle school are closer but we will continue to look at all of these things in the whole this is a three-story footprint on the wild wood site 15-10,000 square feet smaller than the two-story footprint all of that space then gets turned back to the site for use more circulation more after a plague more after we're learning mixed stormwater management a little bit easier and changes your perception of the site Sean we have your hand up just when we look at all the options in the future is there a significant cost difference when we're talking about how many stories or three-story is it more efficient to do three stories versus two stories so there are multiple factors that are in terms of costs that are driven by the footprint of the building so starting with Fort River the soil conditions are such that a three-story building would have higher loads on foundations and that might be the threshold if you will for going to either the more specialized deeper foundation system or some sort of requirement to improve the soils be it grand depth or piers or something short answer is there could be costs associated with the taller building on the soils that we have at Fort River there's also the question of stormwater management both of these buildings once you reduce the existing building or take it off the site the amount of impervious area is lower than the existing state and so if so this is a redevelopment and then if you were to increase the impervious area on site you're the onus for dealing with stormwater increases so you have to contain more of a storm event so there's costs associated with so you know as we go forward and evaluate up the options we'll have to think about all of those factors and that'll be built into the budget that we see for the options thank you and then tim i think there's also considerations for energy use right there's there's less envelope there's going to be less insulate there's other factors that will play out when you look at a two-story versus a three-story option that do have costs and other project goals as we look at it jonathan has his hand up too i was going to make basically the same point that that don adjusted that that from a you know achieving that zero perspective there are differences that will impact costs between a one-story and particularly a three-story scheme with a two-story scheme in between i mean capital cost operating costs will all be affected and then you know just as we're talking about fitting things on the site some of the elements that you know help you achieve those net zero goals take up a lot of space you know you won't see the geothermal field in the end but it does take up a lot of space same one solar which you will obviously see so tim i have a question on geothermal as you're learning more about our sites at this preliminary stage do you look at geothermal or a hybrid or do you go with one and then as you start to learn more so if you know they go no go because i i know you've done some schools or at least i think where not everything is geothermal so that i'll stop there you know so would you go with one design or do you go with or you could do this kind of design so we will start with understanding what it would take to do the complete geothermal field that would it would handle the entire load of all heating and cooling scenarios and then there's a consideration of how much space you have there's consideration of money i mean the reason to go to a partially air source system is that it will save you first costs and so once we understand you know the the full build out that'll allow us to start to evaluate how much of a hybrid would be appropriate to either manage first costs or to get the most efficient system and then as you push those levers up and down in terms of a hybrid some of the other costs associated namely solar are also going to change to accommodate the less efficient system from geothermal to an air source to the earth so so we are working to provide models or you might say models not physical models models to demonstrate what the differences are and and how many geothermal wells we need you know this whole thing is an iterative process because we still don't have the gross square footage of the building we now know what the school operations are and anticipated community use needs are right we know the building isn't going to shut down or four p.m there's you know needs for evening and weekend use as well as summer use for summer programs so all of these are going to help inform how much energy is required to truly run the building or run the school which will then help inform us on how many geothermal wells you need taking into consideration the unique aspects of each site and understanding what can be generated on each site so the quantity of the wells that would be required to support the energy use for the building and then we'll also look at again as tim said is there kind of a diminishing return on the geothermal wells where maybe we don't provide in all of the geothermal to support the peak load of the building but perhaps what is the most typical use of the building and then the air source could supplement that for the peak times and maybe there's a diminishing return in cost on that so that that's what we're weighing now that we'll be having that conversation with the net zero folks as well cool so when you are looking at citing the building do you cite the building and then say now where can we put the geothermal or do you say look at it as a whole saying oh we we should move the building so we can fit more geothermal in I mean geothermal is not a done deal obviously it's just one option and it's a cost component to that as well so I'm just curious how you go about doing the site plan well we have to look at a lot of things in concert I mean first consideration would be how we can put things in space with the existing building operating so it's take for example the geothermal field that's on the wildwood site half of it is in the parking lot of the existing building so that introduces a phasing complication you know things would have to be shut down and halfway through the field the operation of the existing school parking lot would have to change or I mean we'll also consider options where you could put the new building in place of the demolish wildwood building but that introduces the need for swing space to the equation so I mean sort of a roundabout answer but we have to look at all of those things at the same time yeah so your first cut let's keep the building let's not build it on the same footprint as the existing building that because that eliminates a major headache for us so let's try and site it so we can keep the building operational and then you start to work from there yep and if that works that that's the best case scenario yeah and I might just add it's a it's a big cost consideration because it's short in the overall construction period so Jonathan Margaret said exactly what I was going to say that you know as this is a holistic thing that they have to kind of grab onto and you know one of the drivers for cost beyond you know how much does a you know a square foot of roofing cost these days is how long does the project take and and that that's siding and that phasing greatly impacts cost and and just to add to that it's our understanding there is no available swing space in town to relocate either Wildwood or Fort River schools so we would then need to provide temporary housing for the students while we demolish the building and build new right so the kids still need to go to school I think and people would say we're not going to go remote for the two years that it takes to build the building I'm just trying to understand your hierarchy of decision-making that's all I want to know yeah thanks and you'll see the multiple iterations and and your input is it's incredibly important and as all of the information becomes available to us the design is going to shift an important consideration for example is how are we going to effectively or the best that we can move the cars onto the site so it doesn't impact the traffic on the road right so circulation is really important as well and and of course we always start with the orientation of the building so your input and observations will be instrumental as we start looking at all of the different ideas and and also I we haven't fully explored if building the building into the hill as again so it's really helpful to have different eyes looking at this we haven't fully explored what that impact would be if we could take advantage of building the building into the into the hill for example yeah just I would like to say that you know these footprints are based on diagrams that we know that work on your understanding of your program but we haven't really talked about adjacencies we haven't talked about entrances and entrances all of the things that could completely change the shape of this footprints and and we are essentially getting to understand all of the variables the size of the things we knew that we need to make the decisions moving forward and seeing what can work and what cannot and then as we you know paint the site and broad brush strokes will be able to focus in on you know options that you can really evaluate with a fine tooth comb moving forward shifting over to fort river here's a two-story building with a footprint larger than you've seen before the same factors exist with additional layers of setbacks from your river front and wetlands this has only a few more parking spaces than currently exist on the fort river site now so there's very little chance if we go with a new building that we will exceed the current impermeable area so that's a good thing while the groundwater is high at fort river there is enough area you know based on initial conversations with our civil engineers to deal with stormwater management and you know one of the good things is that those systems while on the surface can be shallow and sponsor outdoor learning they can also be in some of the setbacks that we are avoiding for the building themselves so you know we've talked a great deal about the limitations on the site but you know some of the things that we have to deal with in terms of making the building work and making the site work can be in those areas so that's a good thing and so there's a lot of flexibility there I mean as we move forward we'll look at this site in a lot of different ways you know some of the parking shown here is a little far from the building we can move that to the north side of the building to get it closer and as we fully understand the community use of the fields we may change or move what we show for baseball and softball those are simply replicating what is there in kind but I have a discussion with the district or parks and rec to better understand what actually has to happen this site plan will certainly evolve and then without changing any other factors this diagram shows you the difference between a three and two-story building on the site Kathy um earlier when Sean asked you about three versus two and cost you said when you come to the Fort Riverside the ground itself is a consideration so I'll just give you my reference point when I was a undergraduate at a neighboring college UMass built its big dorms and they started to sink because people hadn't worried about what was underneath them so as part of what you were saying is that you have to do more work under the building if you're at the Fort Riverside so just say a little bit more about that water or the the soil composition it is the soil composition so the Fort Riverside is in a river valley so the soils are clays and other soils that are spongy and don't have the bearing capacity of either rock or other types of soil Fort River is filled to the south which might have to be replaced but most of it is glacial till according to the geotech reports which is permeable for water and very has high bearing capacity so the it's not necessarily the water but the composition of the soils at Fort River that might inform the effect inform the cost of the foundations that's not to say that the water doesn't introduce its own set of issues but in terms of the foundations it's the composition of the soils Jonathan a little bit more on that and while there may be increased cost the difference between building a three-story building on that site versus a two-story building on that site versus a you know a 20-story dormitory you know that they are necessarily as significant as if you were building a multi many multi-story building but it is cost okay and can can I just follow up either Jonathan or Tim on Tim you said the water matters so again is it do you have to do more at the foundation the foundation level or the under the foundation level on this site than you would have to do on and I I know I'm getting a little bit into the weeds here but just your initial thoughts that you do on a wildwood site I want on either side we would have a vapor barrier under the building that would prevent water it is possible if we're doing a new building on this site we may raise a little bit just to get it out of the water and there is some cost associated there but whether it's a renovation addition or a new building there are things that we could do that would essentially make the building water and vapor permeable from below thank you and then dealing with water on site another cost associated with its form water management because the water level is high we wouldn't be dealing with anything underground so it's a it's a different type of system so on the wildwood site you would most likely have underground chambers for retention and infiltration which would not probably be the route we would go here so there would be a cost difference between the sides in that way thank you I'm just I don't I'm not seeing uh there's Mike has his hand up and so I just had a quick question these are initial diagrams so I want to be conscious of that but the parking with the loop looks different at Fort River than it did at wildwood in terms of splitting out sort of an access road and how that works is that more a function of site dynamics or is it a function of these are very initial drafts or a little bit of both it's a little bit of both there are key considerations that we always like to you know guide the design for the site and sometimes they are in conflict with each other but we like to keep bush traffic parent drop off traffic separate from each other we like to keep them separate from active parking we like to keep parking for lots of reasons as close to the building as possible just for convenience and then when you have all of this you know things happening across purposes sometimes the paths get a little convoluted and I think there's a lot of work to be here yes we have to say these are very initial diagrams but you know you see some you know obviously the the extra loops are to provide queuing and drop off distance that will make traffic flow a little bit better and keep it off of the street where we know we're next to busy x intersections and we don't want things to back up because that's problematic thank you Tim that's really helpful I appreciate the extra name just just to add to that too even though these are so preliminary preliminary as we are looking at how they sit on the site and also respond to Paul we are looking at preliminarily where it makes sense to have the main entry how the building might relate to outdoor spaces if we if we plan on the larger spaces in certain areas such as the such as the cafeteria how does that relate to the playground so so even though these are so preliminary and they're just shown as a white outline on the plan they there's some logic to it and as we continue the design process it is going to be a series of pushing and pulling especially as we gather more information below grade on on each site yeah I mean and some of the opportunities of this site actually make it hard you you actually want there to be a back door you want there to be a loading dock separate from everything else I mean one of the great things about this site is you have a terrific site in every direction I mean it's almost hard to locate the loading dock so that's the sort of sort of issues that we're working with and again just to add to the entire conversation we will want to work with your public safety officials and understand a lot of communities want full access for emergencies around the building and how does that play in so so again you know we want to hurry up and get there but at the same time there's so much fact-finding and understanding so it will be interesting to see how this all plays out these are our initial thoughts based on information that we've gathered over the years and working with many districts taking into consideration we haven't even received the full report back from our traffic consultants right so and we just we're just recently learning how many parking spaces are required so it'll be interesting to see how the what the final solution is on on either site absolutely and just to clarify I I know this is very initial I just wanted to point it out because I know it's an interest of mine and principles around the logistical operational end so that wasn't at all to push you all I just wanted to ask the question to get the conversation started and I really appreciate the answers and certainly I know our public health folks our public safety folks would be more than happy to meet and to offer their two cents and some of the points that you raised so yeah of course you're putting into it yeah and and you know sometimes just like anything putting something out there it and has to work regardless whether whether it's the final option or the first thought right so but but it will it this is where hopefully once we get past PDP and PSR you know this this will really start shaping this is when the fun part starts so and I think Tim you had a couple of others as it related to yeah we're just going to show the same factors at play as it relates to renovation addition here we are on Fort River I mean it's just a diagram but conceptually you can think about it as saving the classrooms in the existing building creating a courtyard in the middle that would allow daylight into all of the classrooms in a much better way than it happens now and then the addition would hold all of the some classrooms but a majority of the core spaces for the building you know this since you're occupying the location of the existing building it frees up more of the site to the south so we've moved some things around to take up some space like the geothermal field and then you know this essentially adopts the same site circulation that works with the existing building but you have a little bit more space for recreation and community use to the south but this option clearly either requires some fairly complicated phasing or a swing space for the entire school so this is just to illustrate that as we go through the at Renault options you know the same factors will be at play and and then just to bring it back since this is the existing building and we're adding to it there's a good chance that you might be adding to the impervious area of the site so the stormwater requirements might actually be a little bit higher for this option than for a new building so we have to keep all of that in the back of our mind as we evaluate these options and then here's a similar renovation scheme on the Wildwood site with a tighter site the phasing construction logistics all of that becomes all the more important but if you can get that to work there actually is space in a less congested area of the site for the geothermal field where it was shown on the new building option is close to the access road where all of the utilities come in for the existing building the head start actually for the middle school down the road so there are some complications the geothermal field to the west of the site so just another illustration of the things that we have to think about as we're moving forward Kathy sorry I didn't see your hand no that's okay it's it's a question that's either picture on the part that so this is I understood it is to do this would be take you longer because you have to phase it that's a question and then the part that's white that you're keeping since it doesn't look anything like the current building you're knocking out a core and then doing is that's all one story that is all one story it would be a gut renovation it would essentially be saving the perimeter wall in the classroom show but it would be basically unrecognizable in a good way when you entered it in its final condition and then on the floor the floor that's underneath the white and the roof that's on top of the white do those all have to go for putting in the new heating and ventilation systems so the structure would probably remain there would be cutting into the slab if we're moving plumbing around um heating mechanical piping and duct work would probably be hung from the existing structure we would most likely re-roof the building other than the structure itself just about everything would go or be touched in some way probably including the envelope the walls of the building doesn't has his hand up a little bit into the weeds and a little bit of a head but but maybe not quite so much I would want us I would encourage us to consider replacing the slabs in the classrooms in in any Adreno versions there there's no vapor barriers under the current slabs and that has led to issues with condensation and mold in historically in some of the schools I think you know that makes a lot of sense when we would look at it I mean it just from the amount of plumbing rework that we would have to do it might you know be obvious that that's the reason even if it wasn't just for paper but absolutely but uh yeah another successful thing is what we were doing before he said for resilient flooring uh got to be much better of late was a moisture mitigation system that we used to be putting down over slabs uh in order to stick the new floor down would also keep vapor pressure from the ground from coming up so that's that's a solution also if we're not pulling up that much of this slab but by putting a vapor mitigation system down over the entire slab it could lock out that moisture thank you I'm not I'm not seeing any other hands up those are the options that we have for today as we get into the next meeting we'll have a full complement of options that will be priced and evaluated and eventually for you to decide on but this was just to give you a flavor of you know how the pieces are moving in our continuing understanding how it's developing of all of the big pieces the parking the traffic building size you name it yeah and and just to add to that um as as far as the preliminary design program is concerned you know the basis of design is probably going to be more important because we don't have anything really truly designed yet um when we're obtaining costing and as part of the MSBA process and and the interest in the community will continue to vet and explore both the renovation addition and new construction options fully to make sure that we have the most cost efficient um shortest duration of construction for each of the options recognizing that a reno ad is just going to have to be phased because we have no space for the students but all of that will be vetted once we have the program needs and the hierarchy of what goes where from a spatial relationship and adjacency perspective um once we get through the pvp so again as tim said this in no means has been flushed out but we actually were pretty excited when we saw this reno ad option because it will transform the building and create actual walls and proper teaching spaces for the students while preserving a good portion of the building so i'm i think i'm not seeing it in the tv okay sorry phibia your hand is up on your door and i didn't see it so no very oh yeah i know sorry um so i i'm so the school committee excuse me is going to theoretically vote on the educational program and the square footage stuff according to the to today's agenda on the eighth am i correct about that correct okay and then we are we are scheduled to then um on the eleventh meet and review the um sort of quote unquote final design stuff i and i put final because it's it says it in there but i can't imagine it can be final um yes correct so it what what i don't yeah there's nothing final right now other than what the educational program will be absolutely we haven't even but but so right so the preliminary design program is the first step we submit what the educational program is the space summary that supports the educational program we submit it to msba as well as they call them alternatives they don't they don't even call them options or concepts they call them alternatives right now and we will be required to look at 165 student school what a baseline repair only is what a renovation addition would look like or cost i can't even say what would look like we don't even show msba the level of detail here it's it's all costs per square foot based on certain parameters and a new construction msba will quickly recognize and agree with this with the town that we really don't need to continue to explore those options any further however they're going to ask us to carry that cost that order of magnitude cost per square foot going forward through preferred schematic report in addition to the 165 which is kind of background noise at this point we have to do the same for renovation addition and new construction for the 575 so we'll continue to carry those forward unless for some crazy reason something's discovered between now and march that one site doesn't work we understand that both sites are still viable and they both have different attributes that we will continue to explore between march and june what the options are for renovation addition and new construction at both sites so i i think what i'm i think what i'm trying to to figure out is if if the school committee is focused on how we're using the square footage what it's going to be all of those kinds of things we keep looking at these um diagrams they're diagrams oh i think she's uh don't know what to do oh there she am i back yeah oh geez um so basically if we continue to be looking at these diagrams what are we supposed to be looking for because we we don't have square footage so we can't really look at what it's going to look at and look like those kinds of things what are we supposed to be looking at these with the intent of there really isn't phoebe and thank you and you know the hard the the challenge with the process is that technically it's linear right your ed program you're this you're this you again all you you look at all of your constraints you understand the parking needs you understand hours of operation but but really everything we can't wait three months or four months to start the design conversation so we we have to try to get ahead of it a little bit to start understanding how this might all fit on both sites and and just start the conversation so what we're saying is as we've preliminary vetted both both sites and a renovation addition new construction at both sites that both sites and both options are worthy for further consideration and so I think really right now that's the best that we can say but what we want you to see is how we think through and how you all are going to be thinking through as we start putting together true options and all of the requirements that are going to go into the thought process so we're not asking anyone to really look at anything in detail right now it's more of is there any option or alternative that we do not want to continue to explore because the the PDP says here are all the options we've looked at and we want to continue to evaluate XYZ we we looked at A through Z and now we only want to look at XYZ and what we're saying and what we've heard from the town is that both sites are still viable and a renovation addition new construction are still viable on both sites so those are going to be what we'll be exploring and bringing to you over the next three months does does that help I'm just gonna so I just wanted to ask as I think I understood from earlier when you come back to us on the fourth with the probable cost estimates that you're going to be breaking out or being able to show us the cost of what of the geothermal so we'll be able to see that either as incorporated in the building but you can give us a sense because you've said we need this many wells that many wells and and or PV so I'm just so to me part of what Phoebe I'm trying to figure out the same thing you know what part of what we're going to be seeing is we've said net zero and Jonathan will give a report and we have a way to get there that's an efficient heating system an air system but up front costs are expensive so that's one of the things we'll be seeing we don't have to decide on it right now is that correct you know so we just have to know that's a factor in the side-by-side cost comparisons right yeah so so again we really haven't drawn anything and we have explored the sites so we believe we have a good understanding at at this phase what is there and the attributes that will inform some of the conversation around cost as to mention whether the foundations need to be special foundations or how the site may impact geothermal all of that but these are order of magnitude costs it's it's always challenging to put out numbers when we don't really have pen to paper yet but it's part of the process and so we will try to break out the cost Kathy as as best as we can you know another consideration is we can even show you what CM construction method might be and design bid build method might be right but these are order of magnitude costs and their ranges and this is not committing the town to anything this is really solely so that folks can understand the order of magnitude with the different options and even at PSR when we say here's our preferred solution so we can get to pick one in June here's our preferred solution to move forward again you're going to have a more realist I wouldn't say realistic assured cost but it's not the final cost so only at the end of schematic design which we'll be presenting at the end of the year will the town under we'll all understand what the actual cost of construction and project will be so again until then we're going to refine it and get better because we'll have more information we'll have a design or concept but and they'll still be not cost that that we're hanging our hat on I mean we usually are really pretty good about estimating it but we don't even have a design yet right so at the end of schematic design we'll say yep we are this unless something radically changes here's going to be the cost of the project and the cost to the town and I know Margaret's going to chime in Margaret BB the super short answer is I think what your role here right now is just to follow the logic of how Denisco is thinking about it and you know people are on the committee are asking questions how did you think about that how did that is your role right now so they're in the lead and you're sort of following along so that where they land with options you you all as a group are developing developing a common understanding of how to think about it that's that's the task so I think I'm I'm not seeing any other hands on this and so I think we could take the presentation down and then Tim if you can make sure to send it to me afterwards so I can post this version I didn't post the one that was missing some pieces we have the next on the agenda and I think it can be pretty quick as Jonathan was going to give a verbal report on what we've done so far in the subcommittee on net zero and Jonathan so you you're on you know similar to where we are in the project overall we're at very early stages Donna and her sub consultant team presented the subcommittee and we've had you know a good bit of interest in the in the you know broader community as well and in our conversations but they presented to us a target EU and energy use intensity which is sort of a metric for kind of judging the the building and I'll you know Tim or Donna can chime in if I if I stray too much here but but this target allows them and their sub consultants to work towards a target and while we could choose to be more aggressive on that target there's also a cost to this and so they have what they presented to us is what they feel like is a balanced target there are multiple ways to get to net zero and multiple you know within a range of EUIs and the one they've targeted one they've suggested to us as a target is 25 you could go lower and in the scale is is more energy efficient you could go lower to 19 or 20 but those may come with with with cost impacts that are different than targeting it at 25 and as things go forward we'll be looking at more detailed proposals from them about you know the amount of geothermal wells versus the number of PV units we might have on the roof for over parking you know what's the actual energy performance of individual building elements like the roof or the walls will be is that is that too high level Kathy no I think that I think that works and we we have posted the the design teams consultants that are experts on this have given us some terrific charts and I just want to make sure everyone knows that we are posting all the materials and so if you go on the town website for the elementary school building committee there is a set the subcommittee is sitting there with the presentation materials so it talks about how the energy of the efficiency of the building relates to how thick the walls are how good the envelope is what the systems are that are in it and then ultimately the pvs and I as a person who doesn't know anything about it I found the charts really useful I mean they they helped me understand that we are not really going to meet again until the nisco says it's time for the next meeting but that would be in sometime in March when they know enough more to bring the group back together again so I think that's it but all the materials are Rupert Rupert on the subcommittee and I know you have been starting to do exploration for us too on all of these yeah I just like to point out that Ben Harrington and I met with Simone uh Sinun oh sorry and members of the nisco team to talk about some of the technology involved and operational complexities with heating and ventilation and air conditioning and that was very helpful and very useful to learn about some of the evolution of some of those technologies and I just wanted to thank denisco for setting that up and I hope the conversation continues you know Rupert Mike told me that you've also been talking to you I think you mass about their experience with geothermal once they've had it for a while so I think the conversations you've been having you should be sharing whatever way is best but um you know what does this look like five years out or however long they've had them and I know you emerson college has also had geothermal experience so uh sure I'd be happy I um mostly what I was sharing with Mike was my recollections from my time at UMass and I think it might be worth uh worth it if I got in touch with my contacts there to see what the latest is then I'd be happy to share that okay so if they're I'm looking for if there are any questions on this otherwise I think the next item Sean is invoices and we're we we as a committee are approving the OPM invoices there's another process that's working with the denisco invoices so so we have a um a denisco invoice to to approve okay do we want to do both I assume that that's fine I mean you're let me pull up you're you're certainly in charge of this piece of it let me pull up the OPM invoice first I can pull them up Sean if that's helpful yeah if you have them handy that's probably easier thank you so you want to do the answer one first or the just yeah I want to answer that one's similar to what we've been doing okay and um I sent out this morning um a little bit of context information for this um if anyone has had a chance to look at it here we go okay so this is the answer invoice um the total for this month is 11 5 5 750 and you know as always there's detail behind it that you know provides our time on an hourly basis so Kathy and maybe also worth me um noting for the committee um that the council did approve an increase in the feasibility study budget um and maybe the next meeting we can go over that in more detail but um that was related to the design contract and some of the um some of the sub consultants that will need to finish out the feasibility study so do I I'm sorry I moved to a I moved to approve two comments one comment um Kathy is that this meeting must end at 10 30 because this account has another meeting starting at 10 30 just so yeah so so we'll move it as quickly as we can yeah and you've got public comment too so I prove I moved to approve this invoice and I second and then I think I need to um well we have the two invoices so I need to take a roll call vote on each invoice um so uh I need uh to call um I will call the members um Jonathan yes Mike yes Paul yes John yes Phoebe yes Rupert yes Elisha yes and we're not seeing I know Ben was here but I'm not seeing him so I think that Ben is here okay Ben yes okay there's Ben sorry Ben so I think I got everyone that was unanimous I'm sorry one fewer screen um and did I did I get Simone as well yes okay thank you so then Sean we need to do the Denisco ones as well yeah so Margaret will bring this one up so this is the first invoice for Denisco and the process that Margaret and I worked out is that she's going to review these first um and just make sure everything looks good and consistent with what we need from SBA and then she'll code it and send it over to me to for approval so this is an invoice for um the invoice itself is the last page but the summary is helpful so the Denisco invoice is billed on a lump sum basis so it doesn't have all the detail of the other but they're billing um this month um 16.67 percent um which is a total of 33333 so I do I hear a move to approve I'll move to approve second and then I will do a roll vote again so Paul yes Kathy is a yes Sean yes Tammy yes Rupert yes Ben yes Mike yes Alison yes Phoebe yes Jonathan yes Simone yes and Alicia yes and um so I think we've done that um if I don't hear any other comments as Paul said we're going to have to end this so I want to make sure we allow for public comments so I think we're open uh for public comments and I see a hand us up Paul are you going to be able to say or should I start managing this you can manage it okay so we brought Jennifer we brought you in um for comments Jennifer hi there Jennifer Shalvin member of the Amherst school committee um I I'm not sure the school committee members are aware that it's our job to go over the detailed space summary at our next meeting I know we had planned to go over at the next meeting I'm not sure the school committee members were aware that it was our job to approve it I had been under the impression that our job was to approve the 34 page educational program not the detailed spreadsheet with the space summary so I know that now because I took the time to attend this meeting but I'm hoping we can maybe just make sure that the rest of the school committee members are aware that that's what's going to be coming up at our Tuesday meeting thank you thank you for your comment um there is uh another I think there was another hand up Paul three they're three okay Rudy Perkins Rudy you are have joined us hey thank you um I am so glad to hear that you're the Deniscoe and the school department folks and the school superintendent are looking at reducing the square footage because uh I was very concerned about the original gross estimate gross square foot estimate it looked like we were planning to build a school that was about 91 92% of the prior wildwood plan with only 77% of the student population so something seemed out of kilter there and obviously that has a huge impact on construction costs and soft costs and then on the amount of solar and geothermal we will have to build and fund if we go to a building that's too large so I really approve and appreciate you're uh seriously scrutinizing the space and trying to get that down we should be frugal not miserably but frugal with our space just the way we will be with energy um and uh I wanted to and obviously there's an embodied carbon cost of going to with bigger buildings and all that so from a climate standpoint this is better not just uh from a cost dollar cost standpoint um I did want to ask um as you look at the two-story versus three-story and I see there's pros and cons with both approaches is will you be looking at the fact you might have more room on a two-story to put solar panel and that that might be able to avoid summer all of the canopy over the parking lot solar and will you look at the cost impact of canopy over parking lot versus rooftop and will that factor in into the options for going with two-stories versus three you obviously get more roof area on a two-story building for your energy load than you do with a three-story building more room for solar panels so um so will you be looking at that thanks Rudy I'm going to take that as a comment um but we're not going to re-respond right now so I think that is put into the bigger questions um tone uh so I'm seeing are you bringing in Chris Tony's Tony is in Tony you've joined us you can unmute Tony you're muted right now oh sorry when I got added as a panelist it kicked me out temporarily so I missed whatever was last said um so I just wanted to heart back to what Jennifer Shau just said I think there's some confusion on the roles and responsibilities still between the school committee and the building committee around the space summary um I watched the school committee meeting the last one and the space summary that slide that collapsed the categories the core academic and special education and so on was presented but the detail was not and although it was in the meeting packet it was not discussed and it was not presented and I'm concerned that there won't be a scrutiny of each line item um to the degree that really is needed at this point uh I would I'm totally excited about this school I want everybody to build and support it I want an override to pass with 75 or 80 percent and I want us to be a net zero school and not sacrifice any of the net zero for up for more square footage and and so I really want to urge I was hoping today the building committee would go through the space summary line by line the full spreadsheet so it was disappointing that again we saw the collapsed um slide the summary slide so I'm just concerned that the school committee is not going to do this work and doesn't think it's their responsibility and and then it's it'll be back to the building committee to vote to approve this and submit it in the pdp so I don't know what the answer is because your next meeting is not for two more weeks um maybe you could add another meeting and and go through the summary yourselves as well after the school committee meeting um so it's it's more just an observation and a comment and a and a concern thank you thank you tony um and we have one more chris riddle we bring hi chris chris you've joined us you need to unmute chris riddle from strong street pretty close to wildwood um i want to add my voice to rudies about the the necessity to be parsimonious and are in uh in the tabulation of the number of square feet because it's so linearly connected to the cost just worried about um the sticker shock that the town will uh that maybe might characterize the town's reaction to this we do have to get an override um so let's let's really let's work hard to try to uh fine tune the those numbers a couple of questions um do and for and for river do you anticipate recharging the site to make the soil bearing capacity bigger um what is the hillside northeast of the wildwood school that shows us an out parcel who owns that you can that with having that um piece of land available to us would that help um what happens to the playground in the and the toilet building at fort river and um it was built by a lot of volunteer work many years ago can you put geothermal under parking and can you put geothermal under playing fields and lastly um i uh it's important to incident not just to put a vapor barrier underneath the slab at fort river but to um put insulation there also it's a big heat loss there those are my questions thank you thank you uh chris and we will be just i want to assure everyone from the public we will be um capturing the questions but not responding now um it looks is there one more paul yes okay maria is in the room maria kipiki live in south amherst um i share a lot of the concerns that i'm hearing here about the size of the building the size of the building as as people have pointed out impacts not only dollar costs but uh climate impacts every square foot that you have is going to have to be heated cooled maintained um and there's going to be embodied carbon that has to go into building it so when we talk about and when we emphasize the need to get this building to be as efficient as possible that also means face efficiency as we've spoken about when whoever is going to be going through this and i hope it is line by line and i hope it is publicly done and i hope that those documents are available to both committee members and to the public well before the meetings occur i think we need to be thinking about all the space in the building and are we using all of that space throughout the week and throughout the year in a way that maximizes that efficiency are there spaces that can be shared by a number of different groups and for a number of different uses um that's what i think we need to be thinking about i don't hear hear or in other places any calls to decrease programming and to serve the needs of the students that's not what we're talking about we're talking about trying to get to a place where we can do the right thing for our kids and for the climate and for our kids that are going to have to deal with the climate into the future and also that everybody in town can afford i'm also concerned about the lack of cost estimates frankly to say that we're talking order of magnitude is i think a little disingenuous order of magnitude is a factor of 10 i think that the msba site provides a great deal of data of cost estimates for buildings of comparable size throughout time there is a lot of information out there we're not talking about the difference between a hundred dollars per square foot and a thousand dollars per square foot i think it's quite reasonable to have some estimates and i think that those are going to be within a couple hundred square feet of each other so we need to start talking about this we have to end up with a building that can succeed and i don't want us to reach for the sky and fall thank you thank you maria um i think um i'm trying to we we are right at the ending point probably a few minutes over it um so i want to thank deniscoe um and the team that the entire team i know how hard you've been working on this in an incredibly short amount of time and i want to thank all the committee members from coming here and and participating so with that we're going to end the meeting also if anyone has any where are we who are the roles margaret is more than happy to meet one-on-one with you to just go through because it's a complicated process and uh we're probably certainly moving faster than i would have imagined given that what we did in the fall but we need to to keep this moving and it's as it's pretty exciting to start seeing a possible building so i think with that i'm just going to adjourn the meeting we will post the slides we will the minutes will capture the public comments and the design team heard them thank you very much everyone