ility of housing, looking at housing protection, looking at community vitality, thinking about how we can impact affordability of housing from all angles. And tenant protections is one component of that. I have to say just personally, I have not been impressed by the experience that this measure has had on individuals within our community, the people that I know and love on both sides of rent control. I feel that it has been a similar experience that we talk about that we dislike in Washington that we've seen here today just because of how people are treating each other. And it's not, to me that it's been probably the least, least, you know, the worst piece of it for me, just in terms of just the overall sentiment and experience. I think that we have focused on a lot about what divides us as opposed to what unites us and that there really requires some healing and some work to be done in terms of how we can come together to look at solutions. And I think that, you know, what we have tonight, and I said it last time, is a good opportunity for a good something in the absence of something perfect, and we have to start somewhere. The voters did vote on Measure M. We had a temporary rent freeze in place that had an expiration date, and there is a democratic process, and that is also a consideration. So it's not, if I had a solution, I would 100% propose that. And I think that, you know, we will have to continue, as we do on a regular basis, looking at housing affordability solutions in our community, and that is something I'm 100% committed to, and I know many of this council is, as well as other councils. I'm speaking now. Thank you. We've had an opportunity to hear from you, and now it's an opportunity for us to discuss. I think at this point, what I do know that I feel, in terms of the item before us, is that the 10 and the 15 is definitely too high. And I'd like to see something lower. I mean, I'll, I'm happy to move it and to sort of start the discussion if we'd like. Okay, so I'll move that we reduce the percentages from- Make it to the motion. Right there. The motion for this, yeah, for the item before us. So I'll move that we reduce the percentages from 10 to 15.5 to five and 7%. And look at how we can, I mean, and then I think there could be a conversation. I'd like to see if there's interest in having a conversation if we want to look at other types of support services or investigating projects, Sentinel or something like that in terms of tenant supports, and or potentially looking at an extension for eviction timeframes from 30 to 60 days to something more like 90 days. But right now would be the original motion would just be to reduce the five to 7% with potential discussion around the other ideas. I'll second that. And it would include the additional language that's shown on the screen and also includes language that those numbers can be adjusted and the compensation can be adjusted by resolution in the future. That is, it doesn't have, it wouldn't have to go through a first and second reading. It's a motion and a second on the floor. Motion by Vice Mayor Watkins. Second by Council Member Matthews. Is there any further discussion on this? Just say a couple of things. I resonate with much of what the Vice Mayor has said. It's, this issue has been painful all around, I think, for our community. I just briefly want to speak out about those who would demean the motivations for those who brought this forward. This, and I think both Council Members Watkins and Brown were on the Housing Subcommittee. And this particular item was one of many, many, many items that came forward to the Council. And so it's not at all as though this was seen as the silver bullet or the magic solution. This was one admittedly very small step to deal with one specific issue. So I just want to acknowledge and respond to those who say, well, how could you be so stupid to think this would solve the problem? Nobody did. It represented a year when Council Member Chase was Mayor of a deep devotion to exploring housing issues, both by her leadership and Council Members and our staff and community organizations, and then going to the Housing Blueprint Committee. And there was just a huge amount of effort that tried to hone in on some of the things that we could do in terms of policy and resources in various areas. So I just want to acknowledge the goodwill and hard work that has gone in. And I hope we'll continue to go into, it really is the profound issue that our community faces right now. I just wanted to set that context. Yeah, thank you. Council Member Brown. I appreciate the idea of doing this. I just want to clarify for the maker and the second of the motion that we are not talking about the 90-day eviction portion that you raised as a possibility extending the time period for it. So would that happen through a separate motion? It could. To ask that this be brought back, because I'd like to make that motion and I don't, I'm guessing it's not going to be a friendly amendment to this motion, but I would like to make that motion as a separate motion prior to closing the discussion for this agenda item. So I just want to clarify when is appropriate time to do that. So you're interested, if I may, you're interested in the potential of increasing the, extending the notice for evictions from 30 and 60 days to a 90-day timeframe. Just while I'm actually interested in making a motion to ask that the conversation be agendized for a discussion about some form of eviction for, protections for evictions without cause and the 90-day for discussion for this council at the next meeting. So that's a motion that I would like to make, but I don't, I want to make sure that it happens before we close out the agenda item whenever that is. I have just a quick clarifying question if I can. For Tony, is it necessary if we were interested in extending an eviction timeline from 30, 60 to 90 to have that as a separate item, or could we incorporate that? Because I would accept that as a friendly amendment if it was appropriate for us to do that tonight. I have a couple of concerns about that. The first is that it's not agendized. As the subject matter, this in my view is within the scope of what's described in your agenda, the change that you see on the screen here, but extending the notice that's required in order to terminate a tenancy above that, which is already required by state law, is really a different topic entirely. And so I think that would have to be brought back for further consideration. The other concern I have about that is if it's intended to apply retroactively so as to protect tenants upon the expiration of the rent-freeze ordinance, and this question was actually posed to me before this meeting, I just don't know how it works because a retroactive ordinance that could be held up to a court, I mean, I'm banking on the fact that an unlawful detainer action that's brought will not go to trial until the new ordinance goes into effect. But I don't know how you hold up an ordinance that, say, it takes effect in February to a judge on January 15th and say, well, under this new ordinance, the 60-day notice I got of termination would not be adequate if the ordinance were in effect today. So I'm just not quite sure how that works. And I spent a bit of time on it in the time I had available to me this morning before the council meeting, looking into that, and I just haven't resolved that issue. There is, of course, also the question of whether or not the field of notice of termination or the required notice of termination is preempted by state law. I've researched that as well, and I haven't found any clear authority one way or the other, but I would note that the Code of Civil Procedure for notices of termination requires at least 30-days notice for a termination of a tenancy of less than one year and at least 60-days notice for a termination of a tenancy that has been in effect for an excess of one year. So the state law on its face doesn't set an upper limit on the amount of notice that can be required. It just sets a minimum amount. So I think that arguably provides some guidance that says that the council could do that without being preempted by state law, but there is some uncertainty there. Thank you. Okay. Okay, Council Member Mathews. I would also point out, relative to the just cause issue that Council Member Brown raised, it's my understanding that, yes, regarding the possibility of agendizing a just cause, an ordinance that included or an emergency measure that included a just cause component that neither Council Member Cronin or I would be able to even vote on agendizing that. Is that correct? The FPPC concluded that both you and Council Member Cronin were disqualified from participating in the rent-freeze portion of the ordinance that was adopted in February but not the just cause eviction ordinance. So if that were brought forward as an emergency measure without a rent-freeze component attached, then I think both all seven council members would be qualified to participate in that discussion. And that is why I suggested that I'd like to make that motion on its own. I'll just have to read this memo. Council Member Cronin and then Council Member Nroyer. I first want to say to my fellow council member, Ms. Matthews, the whole notion of pain all around, I mean, we really have to look at that and unwrap it. There's a lot of power and privilege in owning a couple houses. And one has to really take into effect the difference between someone who might be feeling forced and painful to have to sell their property because they don't want to be under some sort of rent control versus a family, as we heard tonight, that had to move five times in 18 months. It's not the same pain. And there's pain all around. There's levels of pain that we're dealing with here. And I don't want to minimize what pain renters go through because I think most of us up here were at some point in our lives. And I think we have to look back. In just reviewing what folks said tonight, Curtis said that we are facing a moral crisis. And I think a lot of us would agree with that.  Paula said if you relocate, you need a place to relocate to. Tanya said families can't afford to live here. And we know that. And I don't know if what's before us tonight is going to alleviate that pain. Justin said we need tenant protections now. Scott said what about the city evicting people in non-permitted units? We haven't dealt with the rental inspection ordinance that right now we know that there's over 500 units. I've been red tagged. Micah said that renters under press group. And I have to agree with that. And I think that's the feeling around town. Shannon said the longer we don't attend to rent control, the more people will lose in this town. And we have lost a lot of artists. We have lost a lot of musicians. It's a very different place than when a lot of us moved here many years ago. And we're not going to relive that. We're not going to bring that back. But we also have a chance to stem that tide as a council. Somebody, a tenant, said they had to move five times in the last nine years. And they're getting a 60-day eviction notice in December. Chad said her friends live in cars. And I associate with that. I know students that do live in their cars up on campus. Reggie said in the outlook apartments, I walked, I knocked on every door in the outlook apartments this past election. The rent went from $1,700 to $3,100. This is obscene. And Adam, I'll just end on this. Adam said that any rent increase has to be similar to a wage increase. And if we're going for 5% and 7%, which is 12% over two years, I don't know of many jobs that will give you a 12% raise over two years. And it flies in the face of what we're doing here. At the university, we have gotten very few raises, maybe 6% over the last five years. And there's been, it was a long period of time when we didn't get any raise at all. So I just want to close by saying, I agree with Council Member Brown. We need a period of time to figure this out. I think that's what I heard during the election. If Measure M doesn't pass, we need a period of time to bring renters, bring landlords, bring students, bring homeowners together and figure this out and give them a timeline. If they have to meet weekly, I mean one of the Council candidates was saying, put him in a room and don't come out until we figure out what's going to work in this community. Council Member Watkins said that the family's moving away and there is a shift in demographics here. And again, is it up to us to try to stop them moving away? Give them opportunities to live here. I just don't see that what's before us is going to work. And I think if Council Member Brown makes her motion, I will support that. And I think we need to, the next Council has to figure this out. And it definitely was, I didn't go to any candidate forums that people didn't talk about figuring out rent control after the election if Measure M goes down. Thank you. Council Member Morroyan. You know, unfortunately the historic persistence to any high density building in Santa Cruz and that what I see was almost an absolute refusal to plan for any sort of growth has exacerbated the situation that we're in. And in fact, some of the people that I see who are really pushing for rent control were the same people who supported policies that didn't allow high density building and didn't allow any sort of planning for growth. I grew up here when I graduated from high school, went away to school and decided I wanted to come back to my hometown. Me moving out of my parents house was growth. We didn't even plan for that type of natural growth that would happen when you look at a community and figure out that people who are currently in K through 12 may want to stay here and may stay here. So we didn't even do that. We didn't even plan for growth knowing that some people who came to UC Santa Cruz wanted to stay here after they graduated. And so that's what I find ironic in this discussion is the people who are yelling the loudest about renters being in a bad position, some of them are the same people who helped create the situation or make it worse in terms of where we're at. When I came... You know what? Those outside, you may want to listen. You may want to listen because I might provide a perspective you haven't heard before just as I listened to you tonight. I grew up here. I grew up very working class. My father was a bartender. My mother was a clerk. We were able to rent a really dumpy house. Hold on a second. Hey, I need you to... We've listened to you all night. You've had your time. Now it's our time to speak. Thank you. Yeah, I think... Yeah, I would really like you to hear me because I think I do offer perspective. When I came back to Santa Cruz, even in the mid-90s looking to rent an apartment, I still would have to compete against 50 people for that one apartment. Today it's more like 200 to 300 people. So when you look at what's driven the price, it's not just greed. It's just that stuff isn't available. And people mention the outlook apartments. That was owned by the same person for years. It was sold. It was sold at current market rates. They can't buy an apartment complex and then rent things out at below market rate and expect to not go bankrupt. That's an unfortunate truth that exists. So, you know, in the long term, I really, really hope that we consider some of the mistakes in my opinion that were made when I was a kid in school here. I don't feel that the people who were in political office then really cared about working-class kids like me growing up in Santa Cruz. They didn't accommodate for us and they didn't think about the growth that would be created when we moved out of our homes as young adults. So I don't want to make those same mistakes going forward. I think we need a combination of both planning, making sure that we plan for higher density growth downtown, that the university is able to build more housing up on campus. And in the short term, we need relief for our renters as well. Because when we talk about building more housing, it takes several years for that to come online. So I completely acknowledge that we need to provide some sort of relief for our current renters. And so I'm going to support the motion, definitely taking it down from Tin and 15.5 to 5 and 7. I will definitely support that. I think we should pass at least something tonight to get us to the next council meeting where maybe there's some more protections that we can put in place because it'll get agendized and noticed like it's properly supposed to. And my hope, and the council member Crohn said this, is I would like to see and I want to stress this, local landlords, not ones that own the big apartment complexes and maybe work out of another city and have no clue about our community, but local landlords, to get in a room with tenants, both students and longer term renters and longer term residents who live here, there are all sorts of renters, really run the gamut. It's just like any population, there's a variety of people within that group and we want to make sure that one group of renters don't dominate over another group in terms of their interests. So I would like to see these people go in a room and not come out until they can come out with something that we can all agree on and will work. So in the short term, we need to have some rental protections, not measure in, but something a little different. I have to tell you, I don't think I heard one person tell me everything's fine the way it is, the rental situation's great, we don't need to do anything. No one said that to me from local landlords to tenants. So I think it's really important that these folks get together because I think there's a lot of solutions that we can all live with on this and I just want to say I feel the pain of the renters. I didn't become a homeowner until I was 40 years old.  So let's move forward and let's be collaborative on this. I usually hate that word but I think in this case we need to be collaborative and I think we can find a solution and I don't think we need to renters a typical way or paint landlords a typical way. I think landlords run the gamut too between who is greedy and who isn't. So I don't know if my comments were helpful. I hope they were. But let's move forward. I'll say I want to say thank you to those that were on the housing subcommittee that one brought forward several recommendations not only about looking at how we might have some protections like this one but also about producing new units and we have our next item on our agenda is just that looking at how we can produce more housing units in our city. I'll tell you that in overwhelming majority of people I'd say over 60% voted against Measure M right and that was after over I think two years when you think about listening with the public and also a freeze that took place to have an outreach and discussion that provided at least some sort of semblance of education about what that ordinance meant to the community it failed and I think that frankly this is not something that's going to be resolved in a meeting. It is going to require a more comprehensive and thorough look at to look at the nuances of what it is that the community can not only support but also one that's going to support the families and tenants and workers in our community for our future and it is a combination about building new units and that may be objectionable to some and it's also about looking at ways that we can control rising rents through other means that may be revealed through comprehensive discussions with those that are not only housing producers but also those that oversee housing in our community. I frankly liked one of the comments that I heard was that there are many different ideas out there and if we limit ourselves to just this idea as being a panacea to what our community feels is going to resolve this housing crisis I think we're sadly mistaken and so the idea of coming back with something that seems like a silver bullet I think is is is not functional in my mind this is going to require a discussion that is maybe a wider more broad and comprehensive discussion that even took place the last time so I look forward you know one for the city to look at this I know over the last year it's been the top of mine it's actually crowded out I think issues in our community that have been equally important dealing with the issue of homelessness dealing with mental illness in our community and it's one while I've heard a lot of students in the community talk about the rents I'd like to see an equal number of those same people up on campus demanding that there be new housing production there. We're seeing we're seeing our local community members local families equally impacted by the rising number of students in our community and the values that they're able to pay for rent that frankly working families here are unable to do and so I think that is while it may be objectionable to those to speak about in this room I really encourage those that make those same sorts of arguments here to be out there active to look at how you can build more housing up on campus to reduce the rights and relieve some of the pressures that families and working folks here in the community are feeling because of it. So I'd like to say we have a motion on the floor in a second. I just have to take issue because I work on campus and I do work on campus very often and you need to go up on campus and find out what students are doing because students are speaking out, students are speaking out to their administration we have an overloaded they've sent too many students to Santa Cruz is the problem when I was a student they housed 50% of 7,000 now they house 50% of 19,000 something's got to give. And thank you council member Cron in no way is argument they aren't already doing that I'm just saying that we do those pressures and again I've heard from students myself about the rising costs those that are students at Cabrillo don't even have housing and they're impacted equally so this is not a matter of UCSC it's a matter of just looking at how we can absorb some of the impacts of the rising level of students in our community. Okay we have a motion on the floor thank you council member Brown question before we vote point of order and maybe it's called voting so right now we are voting but that does not preclude an opportunity for me to make an additional motion or do I need to do that now before we vote on this final? Again did you want to make a my motion is to direct staff to bring back for the next council meeting some options that we can discuss related to tenant protections during an interim period of three months time at the expiration of the temporary moratorium on rent increases and just cause eviction provisions that we had passed on February 13th and make that motion after this that's why I'm asking because when I'm just asking the question because sometimes we do we vote and then close shut the agenda and I don't want that to happen we'll leave it open with that advance notice and then we'll go back to the motion on the floor Mr. Mayor can staff ask a clarifying question on the motion from Vice Mayor Watkins so I just want to make sure were you proposing a total of 12% or 7% over two years 7% over two years so as we understand the motion 5% no more than 5% in one year and a total of 7% over two consecutive years thank you thank you so do you understand did you clarify the question for you? Does everyone understand? I'd like to ask I know this was something that comes up that one that this is something that's been presented to the public at public meetings I asked the future council would like to look at that and see whether they provide data or analysis also look at some type of independent study of are the rental costs and how they can actually look at other other means than this particular ordinance, but what other possibilities exist for ideas to help control rising rental costs through production and other means? So if I'm hearing you correctly, which I think is the other kind of component of what this is. This is something that we're doing right now that we have sort of the best available before us tonight, considering the outcome of the election. That being said, I think there is a new council coming on. There will be a need to reconvene and re-examine and come up with what unites us in terms of our agreements around tenant protections as opposed to what we've been focusing on in terms of the division. And so in terms of your suggestion, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's around convening the folks to help look at these types of, this policy as well as additional policies and data? No, I'm just saying that on this, just look at whatever process is in place by the new council, but you kind of look at this and saying it's part of it as something where you might revisit those numbers after you speak with property owners and tenants to see what it is. To revisit the shift of the time. Okay, the percentage. Yeah, the percentage. Sure. Okay, and it's motioned by Vice Mayor Watkins, and that was seconded by Council Member Matthews. Any further discussion on this item? I'm not going to support it because I don't see any eviction protection in this. And I think it's really going to be a way that's going to be a step in the direction tenants want to go. And I think that Council's duty should be to be protecting the vulnerable in the community. And tenants definitely fall within that category of vulnerability. I just have a quick clarifying question. My understanding is that with some of the changed language that there is some elements of eviction protections. Do you want to elaborate on that a bit? Absent of full just cause policy, which was heavily debated. I mean, I think it'd be helpful to hear what you- It's really relocation. It's relocation. The language that was provided was intended to address the concern about evictions for the purpose of raising rents, right? But if you pay your rent, you don't have criminal activity going on, you can still be evicted from your place. And Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry, there's one more thing that we did change that we wanted to show you, if I can find it here. So here in section three, we just clarified the date. If you see the date in blue, that is the date that we changed while we were making our edits. That changed the text that's strike through that we were proposing initially that said the date by which city council certified the results of the election. So what this does, if it were to be adopted by council, would make the ordinance come into effect 30 days after today with a retroactivity back to today. Tony is, I'm sorry, yeah, Tony, is that right? I'm tired. That's right. Okay. What this addresses is an ambiguity in the rent freeze and just cause eviction ordinances, which is that they say that the ordinances will expire on the effective date that the city council declares the results of the election. But under the elections code, the city council does not declare the results of the election. The county elections official does that. And then the city council votes to essentially accept the results of the election. So it just addresses that potential ambiguity. Okay, thank you. So we have a motion on the floor by Vice Mayor Watkins, seconded by Council Member Matthews. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed? No. Okay, that motion passes with Council Member Crohn against Council Member Matthews, Council Member Brown, Council Member Naroyan, Vice Mayor Watkins and myself in favor. Council Member Chase, absent. Thank you. Now we'll go to the next item, which is you were going to propose something. So I'd like to move the- Okay, let's hold off until they have a chance to chat. We were going to ask Council Member Brown who was going to make a motion that probably they would address your clapping, so. You want to go out and clap with them? That's fine, but she was going to make a motion I think that's going to address what you're kind of have concerns with. Let's just take another break. You know, it's getting late. I know it's getting late. So I can talk loudly about what's going on for you. So I supported the motion because I do think, although I do for the reasons I express, think that it is not going to necessarily provide a whole lot of relief for tenants who are suffering. But I do think it is a place that we can start from to have a conversation, so I appreciate that. However, as I said, I don't think that without some kind of eviction protections, this will have any meaning. And so now I'm prepared to make a motion to direct staff to come back to the council on December 11th with options for tenant protections in the case of evictions without cause. There are a whole lot of ways we can do that. There are exemptions that could be included. I'd like to have that conversation with my colleagues in the public arena. And I would ask that it be considered for a period of three months to give the new council time to bring people together to have the conversation, perhaps also in that discussion, have some kind of discussion about the structuring of that process with the council present. So that would be my motion and it could also include a discussion of as an alternative 90-day eviction as Vice Mayor Watkins suggested. So giving us the ability to have that conversation on December 11th, so that is my motion. Come back, agendize eviction protections options for the council to consider on December 11th. And just to clarify before anyone seconds that, that is something that any council member present can vote on. There's no conflicts. Yes. That as presented by council member Brown, I believe so. Okay. All right. So the council member Brown just made a motion. Is there a second to that motion? Second. Okay. Council member Brown, second by council member Cron. Is there any further discussion? Quick question. So is it your intention that staff would come back with actual legal language of ordinance? It's okay. And so that'll have to be ready in about a week to make the agenda. We have a pretty clear template to work from. It's based upon what we adopted in February to start with. That excluded most of the concerns that were expressed in this room tonight. And in letters, the concerns were largely around individual homeowners. I want control over the property where I live. So we already have that covered in exemptions, but there could be other ones. I'd like to have that conversation with the council and public. I'll advise my walk ins. I appreciate the intention behind the motion. And I think one of the things that hasn't happened is the opportunity to have a longer discussion. And I don't think that what you're describing is going to preclude that. And I think it is extending something that the voters did weigh in on. And so I just process wise it feels disingenuous to me and a little bit off for me. I am interested though, however, in learning the 90 days. And I think if that's something that you'd be willing to compromise on, to understand more of whether or not we could potentially extend the eviction timeline. I'd be interested in learning more. I don't know if you could figure that out in a week though. Tony, I'm happy to hear from you. I'm just going to say, sorry, without a discussion about just cause options, I can't do that. And I would hope that we could have the full conversation, whatever we decide to vote on. As I indicated previously, the difficulty that I'm grappling with in terms of an ordinance that extends the minimum required notice is how to structure it so that it takes effect in a way that's meaningful for tenants who receive an eviction notice. Between the date that it's introduced and the effective date of the ordinance. Could be done as an emergency. That would solve the problem. That requires five votes, but it could be done as an emergency if you make it an emergency finding. So there's a motion, a second on the floor. I'll just, did you want to say anything? No. I was going to say that, you know, I think that I frankly, like Vice Mayor Watkins feel like the voters have weighed in on this. And that was something that there was a phrase that existed for the better part of last or this year and even the year before that led up to it with these public hearings. And I think I totally understand that, you know, one, when the people have spoken on a matter, I mean, we do need to honor that. And if the next council has a different interpretation on what that means, then I think that it's important that they weigh in and make those interpretations. But at this point, my opinion is that those viewpoints were rejected. Okay, so if there's no further discussion, go ahead, Council Member Brown. I just want to revisit this conversation with the Vice Mayor here. So what you're saying is you would be willing to support bringing back an agenda item for December 11th that would allow the council to consider extending the 30 and 60-day notice requirements for evictions as per state law that it would be 90 days for the city. Now, so now I have a question. Is that something, I know we kind of talked about this, but is that something that we can do if we agendize it for another day? Let me ask you a clarifying question. Is it possible to prepare that for the December 11th meeting? Is it possible to, well, I assume it, I mean, preparing it doesn't seem like it would be that challenging. Would not. Is it something that we can do because we would be- As it may conflict with state law? Yes. The answer to this question, and I don't believe I'm going to give a more concrete answer on December 11th, is I think so. Because the state- It goes beyond. Yeah, the legislature hasn't stated in, I think it's 1941.6 of the Code of Civil Procedure that it intends to occupy the field with respect to the subject matter, or that it's a matter of statewide concern, and that the notice requirements of the Code of Civil Procedure specify the minimum amount of notice that's required. So I think it could, but it's not entirely clear under the law. Dude, you're blocking- Excuse me for a second, Rachelle, I got it. You need to keep your- You can stand in the back with your sign, but you can't keep it above your- Thanks. Go ahead. Again, understanding that it's probably okay because the state hasn't occupied the territory if we do it as an emergency. Make the findings to do it on an emergency basis. If you did it on an emergency basis, then it would take effect immediately. The dilemma of how to make it effective retroactively would not be present. Okay, so I'll accept that friendly amendment. So is that all we're doing? Is that the whole motion? Yeah. Right? Yeah. I suppose that would be when we would move back. Are we talking about doing it on an emergency basis or no? I would like to. I would like some clarification on that point. I would like it to be, but- Sure. And again, I think probably the city clerk would appreciate restating the motion. The motion will now be to direct staff to return to the council on December 11th with language prepared to consider extension of notice to vacate from the 30 and 60 days required under state law to 90 days. And prepare that as an emergency measure. Ordinance. Does that need to be seconded? Yeah. I second the motion. Oh, okay. All right. Second. Yeah, but why does it have to be emergency? Why can't we just do it tonight and have it on the December 11th agenda? Not agenda. It was an agendized. It's not on the agenda. I'll let the city adjourn. When we set the calendar, can't you just set it at the calendar term? I'm sorry? When we set our calendar, can't we just then calendarize it for December 11th? Yeah. Yeah, that's what we're doing. Yeah, but you won't have to if the council approves a motion at this time. Yeah, I got a lot of- I want to speak in favor of this. In talking with local property managers, many of them say that the 30 and 60 is not enough time for people to find another place. And this, you know, very much in demand rental market. And that talking to some property managers, there were folks who, you know, property managers in favor of extending the notice for eviction just because of that reason. So I think that's an easy one for us to support. Okay. So we have a motion on the floor in a second. I'd like to ask this. What is it about like bringing in, there's been discussion about, you know, the changing. This is right on the heels of a new council coming in. What is your sense of when you want this going? We have a very full agenda on- Renters need protection now. Thank you. Quite honestly, this is 90 days that people will have for us, for this new council to be seated and begin to have the conversation. If we can't set up other additional protections at this time, we have the opportunity with a new council to do that. But with 90 days, that provides a little more stability for renters. And it's not a very difficult thing to consider. I don't think it'll take much of our time. Then you'll have the new council seated at that time. Okay. We'll have a new council seated during the 90 day. So if people get eviction notices it will be 90 days extending into February. Yeah, call the question. Okay. Second. You've got, well I can't call that, but I was just saying I heard that. Okay. I guess I'll ask all those in favor for the motion on the floor. Please say aye. Aye. I'm going to say that I would rather the new council weigh on this. I'm not going to support the motion on the floor for this. But I understand the perspective on why you brought forward. So that motion passes with council member Cron, council member Mathews, council member Brown, council member Narroian, vice mayor Watkins. In favor and council member Chase Absent. So we'll move on to item number two. This is the successfully dwindling ordinance unit. Before we go on to that item, I'm going to ask for a break. Can I crash at your pad when I get evicted? Take a break. It's going to be on the next meeting. Okay. Okay, thanks everybody that are here for item number two. It's late in the hour. Item number two, and we're going to begin now with our presentation, which will last what I understand about 20 minutes. Less than 20 minutes. And then, hold on one second. Yeah, we're going to reset the mics real quick. What did they say? Okay, so we are here for item number two, the accessory dwelling unit ordinance amendments. As a reminder, the order of this item will be a first of staff presentation followed by questions of staff from the council. We'll then take public comment and then return to council for deliberation and action. So I'll turn it over. I would like to make a motion that we postpone this item to a further council meeting. It's 11.05. It's absolutely ridiculous to be making policy on such a dense subject at 11.05 p.m. at night. Second. Let's see. First of all, let's have some discussion. We have a motion by council member DeRoyan, which seconded by council member Brown, right? Yes. Okay. So we have a lot of people that have waited here all evening for this. And I'm, you know, I'm prepared and yeah, prepared to continue. But let's hear from the rest of the council members on what they think. Council member Matthews. I'd be prepared to extend the meeting till midnight. Council member Cron, last person? I don't think it's good policymaking to be doing. This is a very complex, dense subject. I think there's about 40-page, 50-page staff report, and then about 150 pages of comments. But I don't want to disappoint the people who are here too. I totally understand waiting around for something, and it doesn't happen. I agree. Vice Mayor Watkins. I like the idea of extending to midnight, and if there are elements that we aren't able to accomplish, then we can revisit them in a future day, potentially. Actually, I have an issue with going to midnight, because I think if we go to midnight, whatever we do between now and midnight, will just be repeated again at another council meeting, and then the people who are sitting here will have to sit through this twice and make comments twice. And I just don't see what going to midnight. I don't think we're going to be able to get through this item in 50 minutes. Okay, so we have a motion on the floor to continue this item to a future meeting. And one of the questions that came up, and I'll ask the attorney this. If members of the public wanted to speak to that motion to continue this item to a future meeting, that's something that we can open up before we start the item. In my view, it's not required, but the council certainly could entertain public comment. I would like to do that, actually. Yes, I would. Just on the issue, I'm going to give like 30 seconds per person. The motion on the floor is to continue this item to a future meeting, and we heard from those that were willing to have it go till midnight. Is there any member of the public would like to speak that waited here throughout the day to hear this item and would like to come up and speak? Please go ahead. Okay. I just have a... I have this idea that you should be able to build an ADU and a multi-res. It's strictly to the idea of continuing the item. This is why I'm saying that. I was wondering if you continued it, in the meantime, if you could ask the staff to include that when it comes back, because that's something that's been talked about a lot, and I don't think the staff are against it. I've been talking to the staff. That would be my request. I don't care if you continue or not, but if you do continue it, if you could ask them to include that when they bring it back. City Attorney, Kandadi. That type of a substantive change would require that it be referred back to the Planning Commission, but you could do that when you consider it, when at the continued meeting. Mr. Nielsen, thank you for being here. Good evening, Christian Nielsen. I was actually here to enjoy the last item, so I just happened to be here, so I thought I'd hang out for it. It is a very dense document. I have read through it, and it probably does make sense to take some time to hear public input and to be able to not have to do that twice, probably does make sense. So that's where I will leave it. Next, Speaker, please. My name's David Wood, and first off, I want to thank... Hi. I want to thank everybody for doing such a great job. You guys are all real champs, no matter where you stand. It's a really hard subject, but I would like to see the presentation before we go, just so we can start to understand it. If that's a 20-minute presentation, or... We've been here since 1.30 today. I know. I've been here for five or six hours. You want to just watch the presentation, and you've been here as well, so thank you. Good evening, Scott Graham. I would rather see you put it off, and I'd like to see it come back with some idea that ADUs, whether they're non-compliant or future development, could do like the counties doing where they're fee-free if they rent them at under-market rate or an affordable rate for 20 years. So I'd like to see some language like that included. Thank you. I'm Cindy Forenzi. I think the staff has done a fantastic job working on all of this, and it would be great to give them plenty of time to go through it at another point in time. And it would be wonderful too if you could include those of us who built ADUs prior to this. So I know that's not really on the agenda, but if that could be looked at, you know, I'm especially wondering about the home on an ADU property, whether or not that could be included in the short-term rental program, if you might look at that anew. Thank you. Tim Willoughby speaking for affordable housing now. It's a late night, and I'd like to go home too. The only point we want to make is, as you know, we love ADUs. We think that's one of the best solutions for the housing problem in this town. However, we would like to see you pull out the vacation rental incentive.  Thank you. Hi, my name is John Burke, and I'm in the process of legalizing an ADU at the present time. My son lives in the property without living there and we don't charge you much rent at all, but we make him pay something so he knows he's you know, he's going to own it one day anyway, but he would not be able to live in this county in this area without where he's at now, and I'd like to see also an item, I believe it's number 15, to change the owner occupancy to sibling being on the property. Thank you very much. My name is Jesse Kempa, and just very quickly thank you very much for everybody's perseverance this evening. I mean I'll be able to make it back for the next meeting on ADUs if it is a subject of interest to me. One thing I would just like to support is the notion of removing the restrictions and adding parking requirements and looking over the future of the town. I think it would be neat to move away from so much real estate being devoted to cars. Thank you. One more? No? Okay. Council member, so that closes out the comments on the idea of an extension. So we have a motion on the floor from council member. I changed my vote. Let's postpone. Okay, motion on the floor from council member Naroyan, seconded by council member Brown to extend this out to a future meeting. I'll just like to say that I do the one thing I don't support the removal from the owner occupancy requirements, but I do like the idea of a sibling or the immediate family member I like that that was in there and I would support that if it came back. It looks like it will probably come back at some date in the new council but we'll leave it for that. Or could we do it next week? I don't think we have a special meeting. Yeah, just have a special meeting. You guys? You know, if we're going to do that then I don't know. We serve at the pleasure of the council. You certainly do. Do the 90 day if we're going to have a special meeting. 90 day on that date as well. Yep, there you go. So let's see there was a motion on the floor to continue this but is there any noticing requirement that we'd need? You would just need to continue it at this meeting to a date certain in order for us to not have to re-notice. Okay, well, I would be open to the idea of having that notice requirement on a date other than the 11th if that's something that the 90 day notice that we just talked about having that come back okay, so having those two items on the same meeting. One thing. What's that? Sorry. Okay, that's a different thing. You're talking to someone else. So, Tony looks confused. Yes? I just want to make clear that you're voting on continuing this item not taking action on the 90 day ordinance. Well, I'd like to say this that we still haven't, I mean still the same session, I'd like to see can we both go on that same agenda if we're going to do a special meeting on the same day? They could. Yeah, that's what I'm if you were to consider an emergency ordinance you can do that on short notice. Yeah, so that's so I think that whatever date certain if you guys want to look at your calendars and was it that Tuesday the 6th, the 4th the 4th of December? Yeah. I would mean to have to be evening. I will not be in the mainland of the U.S. Seriously? On that date, yes. That's okay. Okay. I don't know if anyone's here that wishes that item is, I mean I don't want to do a show of hounds, is the 4th of December, you guys waited for a long time and I'm going to look at you out there. Okay. Would you schedule a time? Would that be evening or day? I think it's going to have to be the day. Okay. Alrighty, so there's a motion on the floor and a second.


Daily Tech News show is made possible by its listeners, thanks to all of you, including Logan Larson, Mike Aikens, and Norm Physikus. Coming up on DTNS, well there's last pass. We will talk about that, but the rest of the time it's going to be your questions and answers on the last newly recorded show of the year. This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, December 23rd, Christmas Eve Eve 2022 in Los Angeles on Tom Merritt. In the 314, I'm Patrick Norton. Drawing the top tech stories from Hoth, I'm Len Peralta. And from a little north of the frozen north, I'm Anthony Lemos. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Cheney. Roger's the only one who gets to say, and, everybody's throwing in, ands. Roger is the last one, he gets the and. Top taking, Roger. No, Sarah Lane has the day off, but the rest of us are here. It's going to be a Q&A episode. Thanks to everybody who sent us Q&As. We will get to as many of them in the show as possible. If you are a patron, we'll get to more of them in good day internet. And then if we don't get to all of them, I'll try to answer them directly over emails. First, the bad news or what we usually call the quick hits. In August of this year, LastPass announced that an unauthorized party had gained access to portions of the LastPass development environment through a single compromise developer account and took portions of some source code along with some proprietary LastPass technical information. At the time, LastPass said its systems had prevented the actor from accessing customer data or encrypted password vaults. That breach seems like it was part of a larger swath of breaches related to Twilio, which affected hundreds of companies. However, on November 30th, LastPass announced that using some of the information that was accessed in August, a second breach had happened in which an unauthorized party gained access to some LastPass customer information stored on a third-party cloud service. Now, LastPass didn't say, but reading the tea leaves sounds like it was something on AWS. LastPass said it was still investigating at the time what was actually accessed from that container. And Thursday, LastPass told us the results of that investigation. It said that an intruder used cloud storage keys stolen from a LastPass employee to access a backup of customer vault data. The vault was stored in a proprietary binary format and contained, quote, both unencrypted data, such as website URLs, as well as fully encrypted, sensitive fields, such as website usernames and passwords, secure notes, and form-filled data. LastPass emphasized that the encryption was strong enough that, given current technology, they could only be unencrypted with the user's password. Whether the threat actors can access a vault would depend on how strong that password was against brute-force attacks, in other words, just random guessing, and whether the account was also protected by a second factor. If you had 2FA on, it would be even harder to try to guess everything. The attackers also accessed names, email addresses, phone numbers, and some billing information, but hey, not credit card numbers, just your encrypted passwords. LastPass detailed several measures it has taken in response, including rebuilding the compromised development environment from scratch, engaging a managed endpoint detection and response service, and rotating all potentially affected credentials and certificates on the inside. So those are the things they're taking to stop this from happening again. That crunches Zach Whitaker, who has earned my trust in reporting on security for many years, recommends that at a minimum, LastPass users should change their current LastPass password to something new and unique. That will immediately change the encryption of all your vaults. Anyone concerned that that password might not be strong enough to protect the old vault, especially if you used a short password or were reusing a password that you used on other things, you should change all the passwords stored in your vault, starting with the most critical. And finally, users who have had their account since 2018 or before should check to make sure their passwords are being hashed with the strongest password-based key derivative function that LastPass offers, which is 100,100 password iterations. You don't have to know what any of that means, but do go into your account settings by choosing show advanced settings. That's different than a separate section called advanced options. Don't get confused. Go to account settings, click the button that says show advanced settings, look for the password-based key derivation function, and hopefully it says 100,100. If it doesn't, you'll probably want to change it to that. Patrick, suffice to say, when these stories happen, I tend to try to say, hey, vulnerabilities happen. It's good that they catch them. This isn't as bad as it looks. This one is pretty bad. Yeah, I literally, I don't know if anybody heard some tapping, but I typed out my passphrase that I used for LastPass, and I was counting it. And it's, I think, 27 digits of stuff. I won't tell you what it is in case anybody's out there. It's, let's roll this back a little bit. I will admit, I've been a long time LastPass user. I've been a little frustrated lately because they're like, hey, store your credit cards. Hey, you just typed in an address. Want us to store that? And hey, I'm really annoyed by that, in part because they haven't figured out how to turn off or even if there's an ability to turn off that. So I'm a little agitated with LastPass to begin with. And again, having worked in small quarters with hackers, I am willing to be like, okay, bad thing happened. But that said, as a customer, as a long time user, the whole, we're going to drop this at 535 Eastern Standard Time, this announcement at 535 Eastern Standard Time, the day before, you know, Thursday before Christmas.  And it's, you know, and I get it, right? They're a company, they're trying to make a profit. They're part of a bigger company. They're there to make money and they're there to minimize the damage on this. And they don't want people to overreact.    It's encrypted. It's encrypted with my case of the very, very long password. But the combination of it took you how many months to figure this out? You waited. You finally, you know, a couple of days before Christmas, when, you know, half of the people who work in media have gone home for the year, or anybody, or for that matter, any major corporation uses this because LastPass is used by a lot of large corporations. I am feeling a violation of trust at a level that I'm, I'm not used to feeling on something like this. And this is bad. Now, even if the encryption holds, assuming everything's solid, this is still somebody will have for whatever subset of the user base that they're able to grab the information for, they will have your entire collection of passwords, which to, you know, the part of me that's, you know, just on the near side of a tinfoil hat wearing kind of guy, because I'm spending a lot of time in small rooms with hackers is like, okay, I need to switch my password manager because I'm angry and I want to make a statement. I need to switch to something that's as least as secure. There's options out there. I won't get into that. That's a whole subject for another day. And then I need to change every password that's managed inside of this so that I don't have a, you know, that in the incredibly, intensely, totally unlikely possibility that they crack the hash and get into all of my stuff. Which, you know, I'm, you know, which either means there's a flaw in their encryption or somebody's made some sort of quantum leap. I need to change all of my passwords for security purposes, which is a whole lot of work I don't feel like doing. And, hey, maybe I should think it's thoughtful of them to give me this opportunity to update every password I have over the holiday break. But mostly I'm just kind of staggered by how long it took. And we could say they were being, you know, calm and careful. But I got a real feeling like they knew about this at November 30th. They just sat on it or not long after that, which is not fair. We don't know that. Yeah, we don't.  And there are some some people in our chat room, they're like, hey, wait a minute, what if they didn't know it? They wouldn't want them to wait till January 3rd because it's Christmas and release it later. You want them to release it at the earliest opportunity. So let's let's pull our own anger because I'm right there with you back and say, all right, let's say that November 30th is when they found out something happened and they immediately told us and to and Thursday was the earliest that they were sure. And they didn't want to say it before they were sure. Let's give them the benefit of that doubt. You're right, that email was vague. That email should have said this is very serious and it has your passwords because I got that email glanced at it and like, oh, it's probably just emails and addresses. I'll look at it later. So that I felt was a bit of a problem, but the biggest problem here is the one line I've always had with any password manager, whether it's last pass, one pass, whatever, is yes, you're going to get attacked. But the one thing you have to make sure never gets accessed is the password vaults. And yes, they have done lots of things to make sure that those are as secure as possible. But there's a line in the sand for me that says, once you've not properly protected the vaults, as much as you've protected the credit card information, right, you have lost trust, period. I think last pass, rationally pulling my own feelings back is mostly doing a good job with this. If you give them the benefit of the doubt, they are telling you everything, the communication they have. Could it be improved? Could the email have been better? Yes, but it's all there. They're not hiding anything. So really, when you rationally look at it, it's like, okay, they may have done everything they could. The fact remains that their system, while highly targeted, gave up the one thing that they are not allowed to give up in my opinion. And so I will be moving. I won't be moving this minute, but I will be moving off of last pass because they have betrayed the one thing that I held them to. Like, you know what? Everybody might give up email addresses, things like that, but as long as you protect that vault and nobody accesses that because having the vault highly encrypted now is not the same as having the vault highly encrypted two years later when they will crack this and they will get into all of that information. That information won't be as valuable a few years later, but it's still something that I wouldn't have put in a place I thought people could access. Yeah, it's, you know, it's intensely frustrating. You know, I guess, and to everybody's credit, I agree with everybody writing in the chat room. You are absolutely correct. There is a strong possibility they did not know until, let's say, let's really give them the benefit of the doubt three o'clock on the 22nd. And it took them an hour to get signed off and all the various executives that had to sign on it, you know, through last year.  Like absolutely. Even once you get past that, like you shouldn't even be having to think about it. You this is what you paid them. This should not have happened. Yeah, this is the whole point of me trusting them is that this was not supposed to happen. But and again, it's understandable that it happened and understandable that they're a target. And therefore it's understandable that I'll be taking my business elsewhere. Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, and there's something worth discussing at this point. And I'm sure it's covered fairly regularly.   Now, you know, there's phishing, there's smishing, there's a bunch of other stuff out there, but fundamentally you have to be really careful who has access to what and you have to be incredibly careful about what you click on or what you access because there are constant attempts to gain access to your information. And when I say constant, it's everything from Yeah. Stupid. And Les Pass knows this. It's not like they don't know it. It's not like they haven't been taking measures to stop it, but they didn't. Right. That's the fact of, you know, it's not, they should have known. It's, they didn't. They didn't succeed. And all it takes is one person, you know, one person not paying attention, one person having a lapse of judgment and everything falls apart. All right. I think we've spent most of our Christmas episode talking about Les Pass, unfortunately. Do you, do you have another story we could move on to before we get to the Q&As? ByteDance confirmed Thursday that its employees had access to IP addresses and some other user data for several U.S. journalists in order to see if it matched known locations of other ByteDance employees. They wanted to discover who was leaking information about ByteDance's ties to the government of China. ByteDance determined that its chief internal auditor, Chris Lepetak, was responsible for the team engaging in the tracking ByteDance's fired Lepetak. Forbes reports that ByteDance has also fired four other employees involved in the scheme. ByteDance spokesperson Hillary McQuade said, quote, the misconduct of certain individuals who are no longer employed at ByteDance was an egregious misuse of their authority to obtain access to user data. End quote. Okay. Bring a cheerful thought into the show on Christmas. I guess it's good that they fired some people. How about this for a pallet cleanser? The Financial Times sources say TSMC is in advanced talks with suppliers on setting up a plant in Dresden, Germany. Dresden is the capital of Saxony, a state in the eastern part of Germany. A team of TSMC's senior executives are expected to discuss plans with the German government early next year. Yay. Chips. We like that. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about your questions. David writes in episode 4406, you talked about streaming TV. What do you all use to track what is coming? What have you seen? Etc. You can do that. Yeah. So I use Apple TV to a certain extent, right? So I have the I have changed a setting in Apple TV so that the top ribbon is always showing me the most recent episode. That way when a new episode of a show I watch comes in, it shows up there. It shows up for almost everything except for Netflix. Everything else shows up there. So that's part of what I do. The other part I do is an app that is tied into tracked TV. The app I use is called TVST. There's a ton of apps that tie into tracked TV. But TRAKT.tv lets you log in and and track your watching and it will let you know when new episodes come out as well. So some of the stuff that Apple TV doesn't catch, I will track on track TV and also go in there and mark stuff as watched once I watch it sounds like David does something similar. Do you do anything like that? You know, I've never this sophisticated with my I usually I'm at this stage of my life where there's certain shows that are not particularly child friendly and I watch them after the children go to sleep, which is much later than it used to be. So my biggest challenge now is not, for example, falling asleep while something is playing in Netflix and then waking up and found that's played through the entire season and then moved on to whatever else decided to stream next. I would also like to point out that tract is TRAK.tv. Assuming that is the same app. I'm actually kind of tempted by this. I also will say that a huge part of the way I watch television is just randomly discovering stuff. Yeah, it's TRAKT.tv. So Patrick Norm has a TV mounted over a fireplace and wants to get a center speaker sent along a pic. Thank you for that, Norm. Norm says I have about four spare inches to play with and already have a receiver back there. Do you have any good options that would fit in that space? Could I potentially mount something? So if you're not watching the video, this is an inset above a fireplace. The television is kind of pushed back to a few inches from the front edge. It acts kind of like a box shape for a mantle.  Absolutely. You can hang a speaker in front of that. If you don't mind it sort of getting in front of that trim edge below there. This is a place where a sound bar would work really well. The challenge in many cases is finding a small speaker that will fit in that space that is worth having there that also doesn't block your screen. You know, there's some of those smaller speakers that actually sound really good. One of Wirecutter's picks is the Polk Signature Elite ES30 center channel speaker, which is fairly small for a home theater speaker, but is still big enough to carry a couple of 5.25 to quarter inch woofers and that's going to block a lot of your screen. You're going to have to experiment. There are some fairly thin sound bars that might be worth going for there or there are some sound bar sort of shaped speakers you might experiment with that. I would also say anytime you're putting a speaker up on a mantle or a shelf, you want to make sure that speaker is pulled as far forward as possible because when the high frequencies come out of the tweeter, what you don't want is for them to immediately bounce against the mantle piece or the shelf and then create a very early first order reflection because that's going to make your sound really funky in a bunch of ways that are not euphonic or unpleasant to listen to. But you're going to have to search around for a speaker that works with your remaining speakers or a sound bar that works with your remaining speakers because that's about all you're going to fit up there unless you have familial permission to put a large center speaker above that television. Some families will go for that. Some families will say nay for aesthetic reasons and I cannot answer that for you, sir. All right, Norm also wanted had a question for Len. Can you randomly draw a fish in today's art? Maybe one that looks like Napoleon. You know, I think that is possible. As a matter of fact, if you look at the screen right now, I've sort of gotten a head start on that. So yes, audio audio listeners, Len is leaving you out. I will berate him about that later. Don't worry about that. But that more reason to watch the video portion. But yes, Norm, maybe you're just a big fan of the French Revolution and and and that. So for sure, I can draw a fish that looks like Napoleon, and I'm assuming that it's the leader and not Napoleon Dynamite. Yeah, that's true. Norm did not specify. So this is what you get, Norm. There you go. Folks, if you have a thought about something on the show, but you don't know our email address, we will get to emails after the first of the year, but send them to us. Get in right now. Our email is feedback at daily tech news show dot com. Craig has a question. How important would tech or tech news be in your personal lives if it wasn't part of your day job? Craig also asked, imagine you all work together in the same capacity as you do today, but in a world where you had zero interest in covering tech news. What do you think you'd be podcasting about? So a two part question here. Oh boy. I think the irony is that for many things I do that 20 years ago, tech weren't involved in them at all. Certain aspects of tech are all over them with a primary source of information is tech. So, you know, the home theater system, the audio system, I deal with certain aspects of working on cars, 3D printing, all these other things, all of them sort of wrap in and around technology at a level that I think I couldn't have imagined 25 years ago. So I think it would still be important my day job because so much of my life depends on things I have to do on a computer working well. And that's how I got into this was computers not doing what they were spending. It's easy. You just run this application and then the application would crash or there'd be a conflict or something else would happen. That's literally how I ended up, you know, doing this for living. So I feel like I would not have a literally I can draw a direct line from a tractor to a poetry magazine you know, to the screen savers. And the magazines before that. So yeah, no, I have a similar answer.  And then, of course, later on the TI 99 for a and the Commodore 64. So if it hadn't become part of my day job somehow, it would have been surprising. But yeah, I think it would still be very important. What would I be doing if I had zero interest in covering tech news? I would be podcasting about TV, probably TV and entertainment. I look right to court killers or sword and laser and be like, yep, those are the things that I am also interested in that I'm also podcasting about. So I think that's probably it. Like some kind of sci fi genre related something or other, maybe sports, maybe sports director ones. Sorry, it was somehow transports director and new athletic director in my head and had you in coaches shorts and started getting never wore coaches shorts. No, you know, there's nothing wrong with that statement at all. And it's funny, right? Because one of the one of the shows I did at revision three that Roger actually was involved in putting together was dietron and I think the second episode of that Michael and an idea we made doughnuts. So, you know, that that was there was a lot of DIY stuff we did in that show that was specifically avoiding like computer builds or raspberry pie hacks or other stuff like that simply because we wanted to have a to look at a broader order, you know, be more inclusive of more DIY stuff in there that wasn't necessarily. And now we were going to adjust the code for the thermometer. He's not mocking himself. But yeah, you know, you know, music, there's a time I wrote a lot about music, there's times I can see you totally doing music like a music podcast even now I can see you doing one, much less if there was a world where you didn't do tech. So yeah, I feel so far behind the musical scenes these days. This makes you niche. That's all that does. Yeah. Will has a question. What tech item were you the most disappointed by? What tech item were you the most surprised by? I think the one that I was most surprised by was probably the TI 99 for a I'll be honest, I was surprised at what I liked about it. I liked programming. I liked doing basic. I thought I was just going to use it for games because I wanted an Atari 2600. And my dad, I've told the story a million times with my dad was like, you can either take the money you saved up and buy the Atari or I will give you extra money to buy the TI, which is twice as much. And I got the TI because I couldn't resist. And then I ended up learning basic instead of doing what I thought I would do, which was just play games. And I thought I would be disappointed that the games weren't as cool. And I ended up programming my own games. So that's the one I was probably most surprised by. The one I was most disappointed by was the original iPhone. I loved the browser. But then I quickly realized that I'm like, this thing doesn't really do anything else. And then they added the app store. Once they added the app store, suddenly you know, all bets were off. But I was really disappointed by that first iPhone after the first week or so. Man, it's funny, right? Because the iPhone the iPod was really the iPod was really mind blowing for me because I had I had literally worked with. The first two there was like there was a digital computer came up with what was the first mp3 player. And then a Korean company came up with sort of the first solid state mp3 player. And then everybody started to do mp3 players. And then the iPod came out and it was one of those surreal moments where, you know, it did so many things so much better than everything else out there. It was really kind of mind blowing, especially the interface. Like I remember people are like, well creative has a superior, you know, whatever. And I remember laughing and I was like, OK, I have 300 songs on this on this. And do me a favor, scroll to this song and the creative and then they would scroll to it on the iPod and they'd be like, oh, so that's how an interface is supposed to work when you're dealing with large amounts of information, you know, just because there was a usability factor on it that just blew everything else out of the water. And they had really, really good sound quality. I was still kind of blown away by that. In terms of disappointed, I will say something fairly broad. Pretty much every single VR or 3D experience I had up until the second Oculus Rift, because it was one of those things there were these terrible 3D glasses. And my theory was about every three to five years somebody found another container of these that that were like, you know, returned to the factory in Shenzhen or lost somewhere and they would, you know, they would put together the 3D gaming environment of the future, you know, or they would increase the resolution a tiny bit from like 640 by 480.   And then the Oculus Rift got past that initial, you know, most people who put it on or many people who put it on want to vomit to the phase where it was like much fewer people wanted to vomit and there were games and people to play with us like, wow, this is really cool. Yeah. No, it's hard for me to think of tech that I was disappointed by because like Nick with a C, if you expected all to disappoint you, you just ended up being surprised that it works. I have one clear example and that is the EOS R, the Canon EOS R. It was the first mirrorless full size Canon camera and it did not perform to the specs. Well, I mean, it did what it said on the box. Oh, this was your disappointment. Yeah, this is my disappointment because I got it because I wanted to go full frame. And what ended up happening is I stayed with my APSE sensor because I could shoot sports with it and shooting sports with the EOS R was a pain. Then I got the R5 and it was everything that the EOS R had promised to be in my head. My biggest surprise is the Mac Mini M1. Holy because of how how amazing that processor is. Such a jump. I expected it to be incremental because I was getting one anyway because of my old Mac Mini was so old, but I my gaming computer is no longer my production computer. It is now gaming because I can do all my production on M1. It's amazing. So quick and simple. All right, our last question. What's the calendar look like for the rest of the year? For example, are you having a predictions show? Yes, Chris, we are in fact having a predictions show. The calendar for the rest of the year is that there will be no show on Monday. That is Christmas Day observed holiday. Then Tuesday, the 27th is our listener co-host show. We invited some of our longest running patrons to be part of the show this year. And we've got some really, really fun conversations coming your way. Wednesday, the 28th is the reminiscence show. It's Sarah, Roger and I just remembering our time at Tech TV when we first met each other at Tech TV, what we were doing there, other things about our time. Yes, Patrick Norton may get mentioned once or twice in the course of those stories. Apologies, Patrick. Thursday, the 29th is the predictions results show. So that's where we go back to everybody who was on the prediction show last year. So Nika, Stephanie, Sarah, myself and Shannon. And we look over all of our predictions and say, OK, how do we do? We're all very generous with each other. I felt like everyone was like, I don't think I got that right.  You got this part, right? So it's a it's a fun way to kind of look at what we were thinking last year compared to this year. And Friday, the 30th will be our predictions for 2023. So that is all of the things that we think are going to happen in 2023. All the things that are yet to come. We'll get them all right this time, I promise. And then we have our best of show or our best of twenty twenty two. That will be coming on Monday, January 2nd. So there you go. January 2nd should be a no show, but we didn't we didn't have enough spaces. So so there we've got best of GDI kicking off actually best of GDI and DTS. Joe Joe is pulling from all of GDI. So there's DTS stuff in there as well. But it's kind of the best moments of the year that was added together by Joe. That's coming out Monday, January 2nd. That is the answer to that, Chris. All right. The moment you've all been waiting for. Did Len Peralta finish the fish that he was adding to the art? Len. Yes, I did. Actually, there is the fish. That's not the fish. There is there is the fish could be in or not. It's kind of it can be in or not. So stick around for GDI, because if you are in the chat room at Twitch, let me know. What do you want? Because this will go up on my online store and at my Patreon, patreon.com for it slash Len or at my store. Len, can you at least commit to sending a fish version digitally to norm? I can. Yes, absolutely. Oh, it looks like everybody. A lot of early fish support, but the polls haven't closed yet. It looks early early results say yes, fish. But otherwise, it's a holiday version of the DTS 19 ninth year anniversary logo, which is an awesome logo. Thank you for that. Yes, it is very kind of Charlie Brownish, too. So Merry Christmas and happy holidays to every happy holidays, Len. Thank you, Tom. Yes, Amos, I can't help but notice that you missed something on that little calendar for the rest of the year. Oh, I'm sorry. What did I miss? I'm so sorry. I was just going off. What was in the calendar? What did I miss? Yeah, there's a thing on New Year's Eve called the Diamond Club New Year's Eve 27 hour streamathon. Oh, this isn't in DTS, but this is going on. And you should know about it. Absolutely. And if people want to find you during the during the break on a little bit of a live stream, they can because they'll be right here on this channel and on this channel for those of you listening on audio and will now be right. Amos, along with Len later is twitch.tv slash good day, Internet. Yes. And then you can find the full the full schedule of everyone at DCStreamathon.org. It's going to be a blast. We raised over $10,000 last year and we've got a lot of the same people were hoping to raise even more money this year for children's Miracle Network hospitals through extra life. So helping helping sick kids have a better time at the hospital with their families and stuff like that. Fantastic. All right, I will be there. Sarah may be there too. So for sure, you should be there. What's the address again to go to DCStreamathon.org? Excellent. Patrick Norton, thank you as well for closing out the year with us. What do you got going on to tell folks about? Oh, my goodness. Kind of rebooting some stuff on AVXL of our next episode probably coming out at the beginning of the year. Robert Herron should be at CES checking out all the new televisions. So just favor the search for A-B-E-X-C-E-L on your favorite pod catcher and we look forward to you listening. Fantastic. Thanks to our brand new boss and I think it might be someone who's in the chat room right now. Oz, the great and powerful Oz, spelled A-A-H-Z who just started backing us on Patreon. Oz gets to be the last shout out of a new patron of the year. You could be among the first shout outs of 2023 folks. Get in there and support us Patreon.com slash DTNS. I see it's Oz Amandius, not the great and powerful Oz. Thank you, Oz Amandius, for supporting us on Patreon. A clock's ticking on that Patreon merch, Patreon.com slash DTNS. My friends, that is going to do it for DTNS for 2022. Patrons aren't done yet. Stick around for that extended show, Good Day Internet. You can also catch the show when we return on January 3rd live Monday through Friday 4 p.m. Eastern 2100 UTC. That will be our CES coverage when we return live on January 3rd. You can find more about that DailyTechNewShow.com slash live again. No show on Monday, but we're back Tuesday with our special holiday week lineup, starting with our listener co-host episode with Anthony Marcos, James Thatcher and Tim Jarr. Happy holidays, everybody. This week's episodes of Daily Tech New Show were created by the following people, host producer and writer Tom Merritt, host producer and writer Sarah Lane, executive producer and booker Roger Chang, producer writer and host Rich Strafolino, video producer and Twitch producer Joe Coontz, technical producer Anthony Lemos, Spanish language host writer and producer Dan Campos, news host writer and producer Jen Cutter, science correspondent Dr. Nikki Ackermans, social media producer and moderator Zoe Deterding. Our mods, Beatmaster, W Scottis 1, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Godorama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, AKA Gadget Virtuoso and J.D. Galloway. Modern video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music and art provided by Martin Bell, Dan Looters, Mustafa A, A-Cast and Len Peralta. Live art performed by Len Peralta. A-Cast adds support from Tatiana Matias, Patreon support from Dylan Harari. Contributors for this week's show included Aya's Aktar, Terence Gaines, Scott Johnson, Rob Dunwood and Patrick Norton. Yes, Chris, an answer to your question. I read these live. And thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. The Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.