If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump, mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode. This is it. Mind pump, we had some fun conversation for about 25 minutes. We talk about Adam's tincture, trouble. Wow.  Into the moon and back. Yeah, it was the cannabis fiasco. Please don't tell me. Then we talked about Justin's meat bar. Yeah. I love the meat bars that he bought from Thrive Market. By the way, if you go to thrivemarket.com forward slash mind pump and enter the code mind pump, you will get some pretty awesome stuff. You get a free month and you get like $60 that goes towards your first three orders. So it's like free food, all organic non-JMO stuff. It's great. I also mentioned four sigmatic, Raiishi in this episode. If you go to four sigmatic, that's F-O-U-R-S-I-G-M-A-T-I-C dot com forward slash mind pump, enter the code mind pump at checkout. You'll get a discount on their products. Then we get into the questions. First question was, how do you know if you have a damaged metabolism or some people will call it adrenal fatigue or HPA access dysfunction or just a really slow metabolism? How do you know? Then we give our opinions on DHT blockers like finasteri. These are drugs that stop or help you prevent you from going bald. I guess people are been DMing Adam quite a bit. Our teasing has turned into DMs. We talk about it. Then we have someone who asked us the question, if we have any advice for them because they found out their significant other has taken steroids in the past and is probably going to continue to take them. Of course, mind pump is a fitness podcast but we're also experts in relationships. Why are they hiding things from you? Finally, we get kind of political. Maybe we touched the third rail a little bit. Somebody asked us what our stance was on cattle being the biggest threat to the climate and if we would consider going vegetarian for our future. I can't imagine a lot of people are going to be happy with this. Cheeseburgers are delicious. Finally, Adam, what is today? It's the final day. It's the final day for one of our favorite promotions ever. Pretty much if you enroll in any of our programs or bundles, you will get something for free. You're either going to get Maps Prime for free or you're going to get Maps Prime Pro for free or you're going to get Maps Performance for free. This includes our Super Bundle, which is one year of exercise programming all planned out for you. If you enroll in that, we're going to give you Maps Prime Pro for free in that particular one right there. That's the hookup. If you can find out about all of this, all you got to do is go to mindpumpmedia.com. Hello, hello, hello, is there anybody in there?  Isn't, didn't, not if you tell me, hello? Was that her song? She does too. Hello? Yeah. I saw her. You haven't sang in a long time. I don't know. I don't know. What does Adele sound like? I don't want to hear this. I don't know what song you're talking about. She is not going to be the first person that I try to. Come on, man, that would be epic. You haven't sang a song for us in a while. That's just because I don't, I can't. Well, you knew that before you didn't stop him.  It's our fault, Justin. I know. We, because I think up until, you know, Mind Pump, Adam thought he wasn't as bad as he is. We should have encouraged him more. And we should have lied the whole time because we could have got so much singing out of him. It would have never worked, brother. There's no, there's no like fooling me into thinking I didn't sing good. Maybe I do sound good. The guys keep telling me I sound good.  No, I'm every bit as bad as I thought. I was never, you don't remember, I went to church my whole life as a kid growing up. And so I heard myself singing at church, dude. It was bad. It was pretty bad. Yeah, yeah. So I hummed for half of my life. Did you really? Mom, I ain't singing anymore. It's bad. No way. This is not for people. Amazing, guys. Yeah, it's all bad. It's all bad. Dude, so we're doing our work and we typically message each other after work because we're still working on things and stuff and Adam all of a sudden, like 5 p.m., gone.   He was there for a minute and then it just ripped. Like a half way through the text. Yeah. He's gone, right?  Well, before, yeah, before we completely, let me back up a little bit. So one of the things that Mind Pump is exploring right now is the possibilities of us taking on a cannabis sponsor where we've talked about marijuana plenty of times on the show. We're all pretty much pro cannabis. And so since I've kind of announced that and said that I've had a plethora of cannabis people that are sending us stuff. Samples. Yeah, samples. And these are legal state legal companies. It's awesome. I appreciate that. So much love to everybody that's been sending the love. And I got one of these and I don't think I'm gonna shout out the name because I don't know if it's probably not a good idea. Just to say what kind of product it was. Yeah, so it was a tincture, right? It came in a little spray bottle.  And I'll give everybody a little background that, so sometimes what we'll do is I'll have a little chocolate ball that's five milligrams of cannabis. It's a nice set. At most. Yeah, exactly. Takes the edge, it's like having a glass of wine. That's what it feels like to me. It's not, I don't feel high. It doesn't get me, I can function completely fine. No, that's a normal dose for, I mean, you know, for people two to five milligrams. And then if I'm trying to have some fun and it's, I'm at home and I don't have to be driving any vehicles and I'm just watching shows or what like that, I may push it up to 10 milligrams. 10 milligrams, I definitely feel high from that. You're gonna get a science fiction movie to watch. So never do I want to feel like that when we're at work, right? So we're- No, you're looking for a low. Yeah, right. So right before we get on the air yesterday, I'm like looking for something and I realized that I couldn't find the chocolate balls that we have laying around here, the cannabis chocolate balls that we always have. And so I grab this guy's tinctures and I just, I look at it and it says the dosage is like 0.14. And I'm like, well, that's not very much. And I'm thinking 0.14, it's not quite one. I probably want five or so milligrams. So I spray it in my mouth like four or five times. No, no, no, we need to be like, for people who don't know, tinctures are never very strong. Yeah, they're not. Like if you get a tincture, typically, you could fill up a dropper full and it's gonna be like two milligrams of THC at most. I mean, they're typically- Right, yeah, people have to remember too that I- And you have experience with it. Yeah, I have a lot of experience around this stuff for a long time. So I've taken lots of tinctures before and just like Sal said, typically, you know, you don't really feel that much of them and it takes quite a few, because it's barely, it's a spray. Like it's a little mouth full. It's not even a dropper full. Yeah, yeah, it's not exactly- Thanks God. Yeah, it's not even a dropper full. It wasn't a dropper full. So I spray four or five on there. We record the podcast. I'm fine. And then maybe like an hour or so, I had to leave early because I had to go drop off the Denali to go get new tires. And the funny part was I get there and one of my buddy owns the place and I'm talking to him. Katrina's meeting me there to pick me up. And she's calling me on my phone and she's must be out in the parking lot and she's like, what's taking you so long? I'm like, oh, sorry, sorry. I just caught talking to my buddy. And- Clue number one. Right, I get in the car. Yeah, right, rambling, right, totally. So I get in the car with her and she's like, what took you so long?  You know, we haven't, we haven't talked in a long time. This and that. I'm like, but man, he seems like he's on one. And she's like, what do you mean? I'm like, I don't know. He just seemed off to me and just seemed kind of weird and antsy. He seemed like he was on something. I wonder what's going on with my boy. I'll have to reach out to him later and see how he's doing.  And I'm like, no, no, no. I had like this tincture edible thing, but I'm fine. Really? Like you think and she's like, yeah, maybe it was you. And I'm like, yeah. And her head morphed into a lizard. So we just kind of, I just kind of laugh it off, right? So then we drive home. This is now like two hours, three hours in. And typically like, you know, that's about when these things should be setting in. And I'm sitting on the couch and she's cooking dinner and I don't feel good. She's like, what's wrong? And I'm like, I don't know. I feel kind of nauseous and I feel really high right now. And she comes over and look at me and stuff like that.  I'm like, no, no, I don't feel that kind of sick. I feel like drunk, like weird. And so I'm kind of sitting there and she gets done with dinner, we're sitting down eating. Then I'm standing up kind of pacing in the living room and she's like, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, can we go for a walk? And she's like, okay. Like right now. And she was like working and I was like, yeah, yeah. And so she puts the computer down and we go take a walk, right? And we're walking.  Yeah, well, no, that's exactly how I felt. And which by the way, I think it's such a natural thing. Like, you know, when you get drunk trying to wear something out of your system, right? Like you tell, my body was just like water and walk. You need to move. You need to move because sitting still was making me feel really bad.  I'll be right back. And I was like, okay, I'll sit down after our walk. And I felt a little bit better after the walk.  And so I go upstairs and I text her. I'm like, when you come home, I'm in bed. And it was like five o'clock. And you guys were texting back and forth or a group thread. And it got to the point where I couldn't read anymore. I'd be like looking at the phone and everything was spinning. And I'm like, dude, this is awful. Were you like seeing shit? I wasn't seeing things. I felt really drunk is what I felt like. So long story short, I was completely hammered and smashed. I had went to bed at five o'clock. Trina was constantly nursing me all night long. She totally took advantage of me that night too. I told her that afterwards. And I'm like, man, I was out of it. And you totally took advantage of me last night. She's like, well, you were into it. You're gonna work it out. She took photos. Right, right. So morning time come in the morning. And I'm like, man, I need to go. What did I take?  So hold on. So you went to sleep at five. And you slept till the next day.  You're somebody that doesn't, you have trouble sleeping. Yeah, yeah. I get up multiple times.  I did. You think that, right? Thank God it wasn't Justin. I go, right? Oh my God. I would have been in another dimension. I would have been so scared. You would have come up with one of your ideas. Well, at one point. Plenty of analogies to come after that. I got up to go to the restroom one time in the middle of the night. I did wake up like at one or two.  Are you okay? Yeah, no, I'm just having a hard time walking. Like I had a hard time keeping my balance going to the restroom. Sure, I pissed all over my floor in the morning, in the middle of the night and stuff like that. So I get up and I feel okay. Like I feel like I definitely had a long night of drinking or partying. And then that's when I came here to the studio. And I told him.  I'm like, what are you talking about? I don't know how much THC was in that spray. It must have been a lot.  This is the problem is that it's not clear. It doesn't tell you how much is in it per spray. It literally says how much total THC there is in there per 100 milliliters. And then it tells you how many milliliters is in a spray. And so you have to do the math. So you're asking, I'm a pretty good math guy. Well, you're asking stoners. Like this is the funny part. Those are the last motherfuckers would have been. They're great with numbers. Yeah, and plus it's a tincture. Those are never strong. So me and Adam are trying to figure out the math. And remember, five milligrams is considered a dose. 10 milligrams is a strong dose. 20 milligrams is an uncomfortable paranoid dose. That's like, if I did 20 milligrams, I would be very unhappy. Well, most you're like heavy smokers or someone who would consider themselves like a stone or would take that much, would take 20, 25 maybe. Maybe, right? Adam did 70 milligrams of THC without realizing it. And I think you were into the darkness. I think you were still high the next day because when you came in, you were normal.  Well, I was giggly and then the whole day I was just kind of in a haze a little bit. So it was, I definitely have no desire to smoke weed right now for a while. It's like getting really hungover from drinking. You're like, oh, I don't want to drink for a while. Thank God it's that THC is not that you have to take like thousands and thousands of milligrams in order to get hurt. Right, right. Thank God I just, and I was lucky that right afterwards I went straight over to drop the tires off and Katrina met me there to pick me up because had I stayed here and been a full day at work and then tried to drive home that would have been scary. That would have, imagine if it was like a situation where you did a little bit and you're like, oh, later I gotta have that meeting but it'll wear off by then. So. And then you're in a meeting and it hits you. When I first, I don't know if I ever shared this story on line pump, but when we first, so when I was, this was back when I was still running Santa Teresa and Coddle Gym for 24 Hour Fitness. I was managing there and I was transitioning out. So I was working there. I was, I had my boot camp business that was running and then I was also starting the cannabis clubs. So I was working the cannabis clubs, like I'd be going back and forth between all these things. And I remember one day we had this vendor come in it was right when we first started and he's like, he brought me these drinks and they were teas and he was like, these are just real mellow and they're sativa and so you should feel up it's not. And I was just learning about cannabis at this point. And this was my first bad experience of like trying stuff without, you know, like carefully easing my way in. And I drank this tea because he kept selling me on how it's for the daytime and that you'll feel good because it's a sativa.  I have no idea what came out of my mouth up there and like, thank God it was doing something that I've done for so long and I feel comfortable talking about fitness. But I don't even know how it went down. That's the worst feeling. It was so, so scary. That happened to me once when I had my studio. I was training clients and one of my friends brought, you know, some edibles in and I have a very low tolerance. I just do, I always have. My body reacts very strongly. And you know, I tend to titrate it. And this is right around the time when I started using it for my gut issues. So I was super low tolerance. So this friend of mine brings this edible and she's like, okay, this is a low dose. And so she gives me this piece and so to be safe, I ate like two thirds of the low dose. So I thought for sure I'll be okay. And I just wanna see how I feel.   So I'm like, okay, cool. So I eat it and I'm training clients and I make the cardinal mistake that everybody makes once, which is I wait and I don't feel it. So you take another one. So I take more. Yeah. So I wait, I don't feel anything. It's like an hour later. It's like an hour later. So I'm like, I'll take twice the dose. I don't feel anything. So here we go. No joke, five minutes after I took it, the second dose, I start to feel the first dose and I realized the mistake I made. It's too late. I'm like, this is gonna get so worse. I'm like, this is too fast to feel that second dose.   I had like eight clients left. I used to train 10 clients in a day sometimes. I had eight clients left. So and they were all. Did you power it out or did you go home? Dude, and these are clients who are, and I'm cool with these people. I know them very well. So I could probably tell them, hey, I had an edible earlier, but I'm very professional. A lot of these clients are doctors and surgeons and whatever. And I don't want, it's unprofessional. I don't wanna be like, hey, I decided to get high before our session because they're paying me good money and I'm gonna do a good job. So I just start getting high and it doesn't slow down. Like, for anyone who's ever experienced this before, you know what I'm talking about. It starts to ramp up and ramp up. And then right when you're like, okay, it's like. Yeah, okay, now we're settled. Yeah. No, no, no. There's more. There's more coming. There's more party. There's more that's happening. And it keeps getting higher and higher and higher. And of course, my clients decide to have the most complicated questions of all time. Oh my God. Yeah, and I'm sitting there trying to answer. And so I end up just giving in. I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna have a funny training sessions day today. And I just start joking around with them. Oh yeah. And I'm having fun. I'm laughing.  If you're in this situation, you're already paranoid. So if somebody says something. But you want to be like normal. Yes. Yeah. If somebody says something in a joking way, you're like, you don't get it as joking. You think like. Oh yeah, you take it super personally. Yeah. So one of my clients was laughing so hard because I was joking. Started to think she's laughing at you. And she goes, yeah. And she goes, she goes, what did you take earlier? You're so funny. And I'm like, oh, she knows. No. Oh my God. What a terrible. It reminds me. Remember the, the, it was like the police officer and his wife or somebody. Like. Oh yeah. He like took contraband and brought it back to the house and like some of the like pot browning or something. And then called like they're dying. Called 911. Oh my God. Sometimes moving. Talk about slow. Right now. That's so funny. I bet you never heard the end of that. Yeah. I have a total off topic here. Yes. I just remember that I've had quite a few people ask this about Thrive Market. Doug, do you know that? So, or maybe just because I know you've already ordered from them is people are asking if they, if they are had already ordered from Thrive Market. Now, if they order again, can they use the mine pump code? And then how does that work? Cause the mine pump code really just gives them the $60 kickback plus the first month free. Plus they get $60 towards their shopping. Yeah. I think the first time you get the free one month membership, you get $60. And I believe that's spread over your first three orders. Oh, it's spread out over three orders. So it's $20 per order that you get discounted if I recall correctly. No, I think that's it. I think that's it because the prices are so low. I don't think there's like this discount on top of it. Yeah. I don't think it's a reoccurring thing because you have an actual market itself you're getting a great discount by it. Yeah. Cause it's only in the products. It's only $60 a year, right? Yeah. Okay. So it's $60 a year. And you get $60 towards shopping. So when you use the mind pump code, you're going to get $60 towards your... And you have your first month free plus you get $60 towards your... Just spend. But it's over three. You're telling me it's over three... Three orders. Three orders. So you get 20, 20, 20. But once you've used that, you've used that. Yes.  I mean, it's a great deal. Yeah. So actually I ordered a bunch of products from them and then I had... What did you order? Ordered coconut oil and avocado oil and some skincare products. But then I also ordered... So my poor kids, right? I'm always trying to feed them super ultra healthy. And I ordered these vegetable-based pizza crusts. I don't want to shout out the name of the company because my kids didn't like it. I loved it.  Love the taste of it. So I'm like, hey kids, we're going to have pizza tonight. They're like, yay! Now, I forget that I'm speaking to pizza snobs, which is they're Italian kids. Italians are pizza snobs. And they're used to... They're like made from scratch. They're used to like pizza crust, like pizza crust, right? So I make these vegetable ones which are like cauliflower and all that stuff. And I make the pizza and right away my daughter, she lifts the corner of it up and she looks at the crust and she goes, what's wrong with it? I'm like, it's really good.  I said, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, she does. I said, yeah, it's healthy, but it's really good. You got to try it. She's like, but it's not pizza. I said, it's like pizza. I said, try it. Just take a bite.  I don't like it.   She's like, no, I already know. I don't like it. And so I'm like... My youngest does that stuff. Yeah, so I'm like... God, that would be frustrating to shoot at. Bro, I'm like... I'd be just like, well, this is what we're eating tonight. Yeah. That's kind of how it goes sometimes.  I'm hungry.  Well, so... Let me know if you want me to save you a piece. When you're dealing with my kids, what you're dealing with are, remember, they've got my genes in them.  So I'll say to her, like, well, that's all you're gonna have.  And I'm like, well, that's fine. You'll eat that for breakfast tomorrow too.  And I'm like, you're not gonna eat. She sounds a lot like my youngest. And I'm like, you're not gonna eat until you have a whole slice of pizza.  And she's like, well, I go to mom's house in two days. So I'll just eat over there. Oh, man. I'd just go to the two-day fast food. And it just, yeah, it goes as back and forth. And I'm just like, this is gonna be, like, what do I do now? That's funny. I've noticed, because I got the uncured bacon bars from Epic. Oh, yeah. I love those. Yeah, so the uncured bacon bars were those. They're like protein bars. Meat bars. Yeah, they're meat. It's like meat instead of all the, you know what?  It's a meat bar, bro. Yeah, it's a meat bar, dude. It's brilliant.  Yeah. Yeah, I got them off there.  So the only problem is, dude, like, I went to go grab one, because I've been, you know, randomly eating them throughout the day or whatever. Like, I felt like I was hungry. And dude, like, half of them are gone. Like, my boys have been eating them. Like, they're just taking all of my bacon bars and getting pissed. Oh, yeah. They make bacon bars. Oh, that's the best, dude. Yeah. That's one of the fines on there. I was like pumped on. I was like, oh, these are good, yeah. So, oh, sorry, Doug. Yeah, you know, I found out exactly how this goes down. Thank God, you saved us. All right, so everybody who signs up will get $20 off their first three purchases for $49 or more. Okay. And that also includes free shipping. And they also get a 30-day free trial on the whole thing.  So what I'm wondering then is, maybe the question people are asking me is what if they already signed up and have a membership with Thrive? Can they come back and use Mind Pump? I think maybe that's the problem. You can flip them. We'll do like old school 21. Cancel your membership, re-enroll. I don't think that's how it works. Yeah, I don't know how that works. I think it's a one time deal. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I think so. Like, if you're already going.  So since we're on this topic, I did order, cause I drink, I have a sleep routine that I do every night where I'll make myself a chamomile tea sometimes or a Valerian root if I really want to sleep hard. So I did. I thought you were using the mushroom one from Four Sigma Manor. I am.   Oh really? Yeah, it's pretty good. That sounds like fun. So I had, of course you said that.   That's a good sleep. Yeah. I slept really, really hard.  Hard, but I like Reishi, the Reishi mushrooms from Four Sigma Manor because I use them for that. Or if I have a lot of caffeine, I'll drink it with the caffeine and it takes off the edge. So I get this nice smooth kind of energy. Dude, every time you say Valerian, I feel like that's like a race of people, you know? Like some. The Valerians. The Valerians. Yeah, maybe. Like in Lord of the Rings. Did you have the tincture? Yeah. I didn't. That was an original thought. Dude, it's crazy when you think about one spray is too high of a dose. I know. One spray, what do we figure? I was 17 milligrams. You're just like, shh, shh, shh. Yeah. I score, it was four or five. I don't remember. I'm so happy. I know I closed my mouth in me. I'm like, no. I'm so happy I didn't have any with you because you came over to me and said I'll have one. I was, you know, it's crazy. I'm like, no, I'm cool. Had either one of you opened your mouth, I would have squirted at least two in there. Oh my God.  You'd have been on a ride, dude. Everybody would have been, oh my God. I would have hated it because I would have thought I was dying.  We would have been just all over the place. No, we're just all over the place. I would have just been in the corner, just, ah, ah, ah. Doug wouldn't be mad, he'd be used to it. Oh, here we go again.  I'd be like, I'm dying. Call an ambulance.  You're fine. I'm like, no, I'm like really bad. We were sitting down, remember, I'm like in the stratosphere. She's been working on all these, she's got Cassie working on these reports for me and stuff, right? So just analytics for the business and ship. And that's one of my things that I like to do with her. Like this is, we sit down at nighttime and we kind of relax. So romantic. Right. Let's go over straight. A little peering into Adam's life a little bit.  A nice Q&A. So we'll sit down and, you know, and she knows that I like to do that, right? It's my thing that I like to do. It's for her, not so much, right? But she's showing me these reports that I've been asking for for some time and I'm excited to look at them. And she's looking at me and she goes, and she, there's just, I must have been staring at the screen for a long time with not saying anything. She's like, oh my God. She goes, you are really high. And I'm like, what? I'm just looking at, you know. You try and act cool, right? You try and act like you're fine, right? No way. No, no, I'm just looking at it. She goes, oh yeah? She goes, what are you looking at? She had this like, the reports I asked for. She's like, well, do you know what you're looking at? And I'm like, yeah, I know what I'm looking at. And then she starts quizzing me, like asking me questions.  It's the cover letter. You're just staring at the cover letter. And then she finally looks at it and she goes, do you want to look at these later? And I'm like, yeah, we should probably look at them later. And that was right before we got it, went for our walk. So it was, that was pretty bad. Bring the Stonerberg, please. Yeah, forgot the Stonerberg. Yeah. This quiz brought to you by OrganiFi. For those days you fall short on getting your organic veggies or whole food nutrition, OrganiFi fills the gap with laboratory-tested certified organic superfoods to help give your health and performance the added edge. Try OrganiFi, totally risk-free for 60 days by going to OrganiFi.com. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com. And use a coupon code MINEPOMP for 20% off at checkout. All right, the first question is from Brittany Flores. How does one know if they have a damaged metabolism? That's a good question. It is a good question because I think we get a lot of questions on this line. Well, we get, metabolic damage has become, it's another one of those words, right? Buzz terms. It's become another buzz term. Oh, by the way, I'm pretty sure they're gonna start selling supplements to fix this pretty soon. Oh, yeah. I guarantee it. Damage metabolism, take this pill. Absolutely. I think that's a great call. That's an easy prediction. Yeah, a great prediction on that one too is for sure we will see people market to this.  Yes, it's real. Yes, we've dealt with it. Is it as common as it's starting to become? No, I don't believe it's that common. I believe that most people have just a poor relationship with food, don't understand how much they're actually moving throughout the day. Does eat poorly and they're lazy. Yeah. I hate to say it. No, it is. It's true. You know what it reminds me of? Like 20 years ago, when I was a train, when I first became a personal trainer, the excuse was, I think I have low thyroid. You know what I mean? I think my thyroid's low. Right.  No, it's not. Right. Well. Genetics then. You just don't, yeah, exactly. So when I would see it, right, in big bone, is when I would have, and this is again, why the tracking and all that shit, so I could eliminate this as a possibility. Because when it is an issue. It's obvious to me. Well, yes. And not only that. You may have to work for it. Not only that, but there's a specific protocol. Well, yeah, right? So you have, and when I see it's most common, it looks like this. I get somebody who has some sort of a very active day where they are just, they move a lot, like 20,000 steps. Like it's a lot of moving. You're an active, you have an active job or you're moving a lot, right?  And you're 50 pounds overweight.  And I've had you track and we've been looking at this and we've been looking, and you're not, the scale is not moving. Yeah, this person probably has some metabolic damage. So. I think we should also, let's be very clear. Cause the term damaged metabolism or metabolic damage. Or fatigue is the. Right, or general fatigue or HPA axis, this function or whatever. It's, technically your metabolism is not damaged. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to. Oh, great point. So it's not like you're broken. It's just your body has now adapted to a lot of stress, whether it be exercise or lack of sleep or too many stimulants or poor stress management, you know, life, whatever. And it's adapted to just a high level of activity. And it's also adapted to low calorie intake. So in reality, your metabolism not damaged, it's doing what it's supposed to, which is adapt to, you know, the stimulus that you throw at it. So in this particular case, your metabolism is efficient. It's burning less calories. Your receptors for hormones like cortisol may be downregulated. Your hormones have been altered and changed. Basically to keep you functioning and alive. Remember, your body's number one goal is to keep you alive. It doesn't, that's the secondary goal would be to keep you long-term healthy and keep you, you know, feeling good and all that stuff. But number one, you gotta be alive. In extreme cases where they've had like prisoners of war where they'll take these people who've been, you know, captured and held prisoner for years and fed very, very little and forced to work ridiculous, you know, hours and whatever under high stresses, they'll find people that these people are surviving.  Their bodies have adapted to this extreme stress. So to a much less extent, you're in a situation where maybe you approached your weight loss with the following, you know, methods.  So I'm gonna do tons of cardio. That's typically what happens. Tons and tons of cardio.  I'm gonna cut my calories. I'm gonna count everything.  And now you're stuck with the last 10 or 15 or 20. And- Well, don't you feel like this is where most people like- Can't you simplify it a lot by just like realizing how low of calories you've deduced yourself down to? And so- The biggest loser, they're all in this category. Yeah, I feel like for the most part, a majority of our society under-consume like nutrients that their body needs, right? We over-consume calories.  But we really under-consume on the nutrient dense foods and the things that our body needs. So we already, for the most part, the average American already is setting themselves up for not a less optimal running systems, right?   And so what you do is you grossly reduce all of that stuff that you were consuming before that you knew wasn't good for you. And you cut it in half or you're eliminated completely. So your calories now are 1,000 to 1,500 calories a day.  So you have this drastic swing of, I already wasn't fueling my body what it needs to work optimally. And I'd already got it adapted to that. Now I'm going to reduce that even more and I'm going to put more stress on it by pushing it on cardio. And it's normally a very short-lived results. They get results for a week or two. They lose a couple pounds towards their 50-pound-plus goal.  Who's ever said I've been happier eating Taco Bell? Yeah, lots of people. Wow. Lots of people.  I mean, it's a tough situation to be in. Here you are. You lost 50 pounds or whatever.  You're doing 30 minutes to an hour of cardio every single day. You've already got a busy life. You've already got a job. Maybe you have kids. What do you do now?    No matter, the slightest thing that I do. It tips the scale massively. I gain weight so fast. If you're in this category, you'll have weight fluctuations that seem pretty dramatic. You know you're here because you've got yourself here through doing the things that we just talked about.  The remedy for this, the ultimate remedy for this, there's a lot of things you have to do, but the one main remedy is to build muscle and get stronger. That's really the only signal that tells your body that it's okay to be less efficient with calories because you're sending a signal through lifting weights that you need this muscle more than anything. So now your body's gonna speed up its metabolism. We are about to release a guide that Sal revised the nutrition guide that I think is incredible for someone like this. Like talk about a, and it's in my opinion, the blueprints on how to help and fix somebody with a damaged metabolism. Everything from first working on your relationship with your own body and learning to separate body and self image and then your relationship with food and then how to implement exercise. I mean it literally walks you through step by step what that looks like and then it gives you all types of different options of different diets that we talk about on the show. And I think that the mistake that most people make in this situation is they fall in that yo-yoing of totally on, totally off. And if you think you have a damaged metabolism, which like we said earlier, very few people actually truly have that. Normally you're caught in this yo-yoing of off and on the wagon because you just swing from one extreme to the other. This is more common amongst people who compete a lot. That's where I see it the most. When people come to me and they're like, oh my God, I have so much trouble getting leaner and then I ask them their history and they're like, oh, I competed in three shows or two shows recently. Then I say, okay, let's look and see if we're dealing with a quote unquote damaged metabolism. If I have an average person and what I made my average is someone who didn't compete and they come to me and they say, Sal, like I work out and I eat right and whatever and I just can't lose weight. And I ask them their history and their history includes marathons or I don't get good sleep, I work really, lots of hours, I got three kids, I do tons of exercise, I'm drinking six cups of coffee a day. Then I'll also think there may be some damaged metabolism. If they come to me and say, I can't lose weight, whatever, and I go, well, what's your history? And it's, I'm inactive and I just eat a bad diet, probably not a damaged metabolism. Lift weights, get stronger, eat adequate fat. You don't wanna go keto, you still wanna have some carbs but you're not gonna have a carb heavy diet. Reduce your cardio slowly, don't drop it cold turkey cause you'll rebound very quickly. Get better sleep and learn how to manage your stress and give it some time. Unfortunately, getting out of this situation is gonna take some months. Not weeks, it's gonna take some months before your body's hormones and everything starts to balance out and before you start to notice some of the positive effects of the work that you're doing. I also highly recommend to anybody who may think they're suffering with this or wants more information in this direction is to go to the coaching that we have online which is totally free. You go to mindpumpmedia.com and you can sign up for free 30 days of coaching and we literally have broken up every single day with a topic and it's the same way that one of us would talk to somebody who's hired us that's wanting to learn about themselves, their body, different macro, micronutrients, exercise, every day we address something different. We make it very user friendly with links to direct you straight to videos and podcast episodes where we talk specifically about that topic so if it's something you feel very familiar with you can move on to the next day. If it's something that you wanna know more you could spend hours diving deeper into that topic so go to the 30 days of coaching at mindpumpmedia.com. Quick commercial break. Hey, people ask us all the time how they can support Mind Pump. Here's what you can do. You can go to www.brain.fm forward slash mind pump and get 20% off brain FM for meditation or focus. You can also go to audibletrial.com forward slash mind pump and get a 30 day trial plus one free audio book. Lastly, you can go to getnatureblend.com forward slash mind pump and you will get a discount on Ben Greenfield's CBD product. Next up is S-R-H-Y-S-E. Your opinions on DHT blockers like finasteride.   Oh, I get a DM almost every day from somebody who wants to help me out. Oh, man. What's that? I want to help. And our pump heads are so helpful. Oh, they're hilarious. They're all hilarious too. They said them out like, hey, they're all very sensitive. Hey, man.  So they tiptoe and like presenting me their fucking, their hair product, right? They're just like, bro, you gotta try it. I'm not saying you got an issue. Yeah, right, right. I'm not trying to be offensive. You look great. You look great. You look great. But I have heard you talk about.  Well, because this question was from somebody who is asking for hair loss. So DHT blockers, finasteride, deutasteride, these are chemicals, prescription drugs that you can take that reduce or eliminate the conversion of testosterone to dehydrotestosterone.  No. They don't all possess this? No, no, no. You have to have a prescription to have deutasteride or finasteride. The shampoos may have something different, but no, these are prescription. Oh, okay. Now, here's the thing with. Man, that's why I'm bald. Here's the thing with DHT. DHT is like all hormones in the body has essential functions.  Like stop trying to prevent a normal thing that's happening to your body. Thank God, I feel like someone's finally defending me. Well, because here's the problem. DHT has got all these effects in the body that are very important. For example, increases strength through this central nervous system. It's more potent than testosterone when it comes to affecting the central nervous system. It very, very strong effects on sense of well-being, confidence, and libido. So one of the major side effects of taking anything that reduces or blocks. Boner killer. Yes. It's big libido block. This is my theory and correct me if you think I'm wrong here, but first of all, it runs in my family. So I believe I already have the genes.  And so I'm sure that accelerated or expressed those genes that I already had. And then I tried, and then it was just a little bit, right?   And all these products, and let me tell you, I've tried a lot of them. I haven't tried a prescription version though, so I didn't know that. But most of them, what would happen is I would feel like it made a little bit of a difference while I was taking it. Like it was like, you get this like a little peach fuzz that starts to grow a little bit. So like it kind of to the average eye, like it looks like it kind of fills it in a little bit more, but then the moment I stopped taking it, I would lose more hair. So these products, I feel like my body gets adapted to taking them. You're just penting down on forever, yeah. Then my hair needs it to leave in, to keep the little peach fuzz going on, and then I end up losing more from it.  It's gonna go, it's going, you know what I'm saying? It's like. Kind of like the hair in a can thing.  So it's just one of those things that I don't, you know, we joke about it, but I really don't care that much. So here's what's happening. So when you have a male pattern baldness or androgenic alopecia is the technical term, and women by the way can suffer from this as well. It's just far more rare because they don't have nearly the levels of DHT that men will have. What happens is it's not that you have high levels of DHT in your system, you know, more than others. It's that you have a probably a high density of DHT receptors in your scalp, whereas some men can take all the steroids in the world and won't lose a single hair. And it's cause they don't have a lot of DHT receptors in their scalp. Other men have more DHT receptors in their prostate. And so they'll suffer from, and that's your, that's me. The enlarged prostate. That's me, yours truly. Now I don't really, I'm not suffering from it yet, but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have to deal with, I'm gonna deal with these issues as I get older. Better go get that finger check. You know what I'm saying? Because it's on all sides of my family. Like all the men in my family have to have dealt with some kind of prostate enlargement. And that's also because I, you know, you have a high propensity of receptors for DHT in the prostate. So the two methods that you can use to prevent this natural hair loss would be either stop or reduce the conversion of testosterone to hydro testosterone, which is not a good idea. Because again, remember this is a hormone that's naturally occurring in the body that has all these other functions. Or you could try to block the DHT receptors in these areas. So one thing you can do, and I've told you about this, Adam, is you can try Sol Palmetto shampoo. Sol Palmetto shampoo has, there is some evidence that when you leave it on your scalp, it will attach to the DHT receptors in the scalp, block them so that the DHT that you naturally have flowing in your body won't attach to these receptors and then you won't lose as much hair. The reason why you probably notice- Now is that the idea of that is to slow down the process? It's not gonna actually regrow the hair. You may get some regrowth, but it's highly unlikely. The mostly what'll happen, and really, in the studies that I've read, is that it works well for men who lose hair in the crown of their head, not in the front, not in the forehead. For some reason, that kind of hair loss is like, that goes away and it's like the hardest thing to stop. It's the crown of the head. And this is true for monoxidil and those other drugs too, that regrow hair. It's like it works in the back of the head, but not in the front for whatever reason. But when you use these, they'll stop or slow down hair loss. When you stop using them, what happens is your body catches up to where it was gonna normally be. That's why you may notice more faster hair loss, not because you're necessarily getting a rebound effect, although, now that I'm talking about it, it is a totally viable theory that blocking receptors may cause the up-regulation of receptors because your body's always trying to balance itself out. So that's interesting. I would like to see that, but- That's just my own personal theory. I'm not trying to say that's a fact or not, but to me, it just got to the point where it's like, none of this shit's gonna make that big of a difference. Like I'm not really tripping on it very much. No, DHT is an important, I'll tell you what, Anabolic- But I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that are interested. I'll tell you what, Anabolic Steroids. This is what the Bruce Willis does. Let's talk about Anabolic Steroids. Anabolic Steroids are typically derivatives of testosterone, but there are some Anabolic Steroids that are derivatives of dehydrotestosterone, DHT. Bodybuilders don't typically use these steroids alone because they don't give you big mass gains. You mean like, mass-drawn? Yes, but they make your muscles hard and they give you lots of strength gains. Windstrawl is one of them. Prima-Bolen is one of them. Anivar is one of them. And Mastron is one of them. Mastron in particular is known for giving you this hard look and making you real strong, but if you have any kind of propensity for hair loss and you take Mastron, that shit's gonna happen.  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've taken Mastron, I've taken Anivar, and I've taken, what else did you say? Windstrawl. Windstrawl, I've taken all those. Yeah, and Mastron's probably the worst one. I think that one's got the worst one. I actually remember the first time that I took that and I remember my hair not long afterwards and that was actually when I- It's coming out?  Now, sometimes people are prescribed Finasteride or Dutasteride for benign hyperplasia of the prostate enlargement, and it helps with that. Again, there's things you can do dietarily and herbs and stuff you can take. I'll tell you what, Rashi, we just talked about Rashi, the mushroom Rashi, which I get from Four Sigmatic. That has a, here's why I like adaptogen so much.  When you take them, if you have an imbalance, it balances you out.  So, Rashi's one of those things that has been shown to balance out DHT. So if you're over-producing it or you've got some kind of, you know, if you're at a balance, it'll help bring it down and make it feel better. If you're under-producing it, it'll help bring it back up to normal level. So there's things you can do naturally that may help. None of them are gonna be as strong as the pharmaceuticals in terms of, you know, preventing hair loss. But I'll tell you what, I've had several clients, male clients, who took it, who took Finasteride or Dutasteride, stop taking it because they had, like erectile dysfunction from it. And then when they stopped taking it, it took months, it took months to get it back. I just started to get all weary about putting all these different kind of chemicals in my head. Plus what are the long-term effects? Right, just to try and save or slow down the process of my hair loss. And so I don't even know the name.  And it's like, that's me. And then I don't wash it like every other day instead every day. You know what raises DHT? What? There's one study that shows that creatine raises DHT a little bit and even testosterone a little bit. So good and bad, I guess, you know, guys trying to raise it to testosterone levels probably take a little creatine among other things. Next question is from Mbastia. Oh. Thoughts on steroids. Any advice for someone who found out their significant other has taken them and will probably take them again? Speaking of steroids. Yeah, I was talking about steroids. Segue right into that one. This is an interesting question. I almost feel like it's a relationship question, more than anything. It is more of a question than it is a steroid question when you think about it. I feel like it's sneaky. Yeah, like I just found out as if they didn't tell you before, which is kind of a red flag. Yeah, it's kind of a relationship communication thing. Yeah, kind of a red flag and they're gonna take them again. You know, that's something you gotta talk about with each other, because I know plenty of people who take anabolic steroids and their spouses and significant others know and everybody's cool with it. But if that's your red line, because you may have that, you may think that to yourself, like I don't want them to take it because they're breaking the law for whatever reason. Into the defense of the person who's not sharing it, because I think right away you think, I'm going back in my head thinking about, did I share that with every girlfriend? And I don't think I did. I don't think I, I think if I had a girlfriend that I was dating and we're, you know, who knows how long, how many months we are into a relationship. You're serious, yeah. Right, and I was taking steroids. Would I share it with that person? I don't know. Like I don't think I did with everyone and mostly because if I didn't think they knew enough about it or understood it that they would just freak out and judge over it. And it's like, I don't want to have that conversation. And it would be, it was more like, I'm just going to avoid that.  Yeah, I'm in my 20s, right?  I had my own place. I had a girl living with me and I would, and I would, I was technically hiding that from them for that reason. So I can relate to keeping it away from my partner for this exact reason. Because if she were to get freaked out to where it's like, oh my God, my partner's been taking steroids. What do I do? Like, well, I mean, you don't really do anything. It's not your body. It's your, it's up to you. And if you don't, if you're not okay with being with someone that takes them or it is at all using them, then I guess it's something that you, you have the option to be out of that relationship. But for someone like me, that wouldn't, that wouldn't obviously be a game changer or a deal breaker for me. Well, I think a thing that we should talk about then in this is, is it a problem? Like, if somebody, if your boyfriend and or girlfriend is taking, well, let's talk about guys for a second because talking about girls, a whole different topic. Which I actually thought this was a guy asking the question. Okay, here's the thing. If a woman is taking steroids, she's hormonally making herself turn into a man. So there's, that's, there are some- It's so bad to say this, but I feel like I'd have a different, yeah, if it's a girl. Well, no, it's the effects of testosterone on men are more subtle than the effects of testosterone on a woman. It's like giving estrogen to a man. Like you're, you're, from a hormonal level you are telling her body to become more male. Changing the whole chemistry. You are. Now that being said, when a guy is taking testosterone or steroids, if he's taking the gym doses, which are not replacement doses, they're taking probably, you know, 200 to 500 milligrams of testosterone a week. At the minimum. Or more. Are there behavioral effects on that person? The answer, yes, of course there is. Now are there studies to show that there's behavioral effects from taking, you know, 500 milligrams of testosterone a week long term? No, because I think getting a study like that, I don't think you'd get approved to do a study like that because the doses of testosterone that these guys are using, even at 500 milligrams, which is still considered an average dose among gym goers is still extremely high compared to your normal testosterone levels. And I don't know if you'd get approval, you know, to get to study that, that type of a dose. I don't know if they'd even let you administer that much to somebody long term, but you get people on the other side who takes steroids are like, no, it doesn't affect your behavior. I'm exactly the same. That's not true because testosterone does have behavioral effects. It is a hormone that does change how your brain develops. It does change the structure of your brain.  So it is going to affect other things. And when you are taking that much testosterone, it does throw off other hormones, like estrogen and other hormones that react to high levels of testosterone. Can you expect that this person may have potential mood swings more than they normally would? Will they have, are they more likely to do certain things, risky behavior? These are all things that I would say probably, probably yes, I know that there was one survey study that was done on men who took anabolic steroids and they found that there were much higher rates of, and these were married men, higher rates of things like infidelity. Now the problem with a study like that is, is it the steroids that's causing it or is it the maybe low in security? The reason why they're taking it, causing that? So it's hard to weed this stuff out, but for I- So many variables that come into play here. I mean, here's the thing, like, let's pretend it's not steroids. Let's pretend it's any drug, like anything. And you can, and anybody who is abusing anything, I think is a red flag. And I think is something that you should probably be concerned about in a relationship. So it doesn't, I think the fact that it's steroids is it doesn't matter, doesn't matter that steroids. Let's replace it with cocaine or let's replace it with painkillers or let's replace it with even food addiction. Like, if you've got somebody who can't go without or need something and you can, and then they live their life that.  And the reality is if you're dating a hardcore competitor and you're not in that world, probably the least difficult thing you have to deal with is your steroids. Just to be honest, you're dealing with, I mean, competing is a very selfish sport just by nature, all the food you gotta carry and all the workouts and all that stuff. But, you know, it's the flip is true too. You know, I've talked to people about this and you'll hear, I've heard women like, oh my God, you know, I'm afraid his behavior will change this and that. It's like, well, you take birth control. Like, female hormones change behavior in women too. And they're subtle, the changes are subtle, but it does change, I mean it's. It's just as fair of an argument. It is. It's just as fair of an argument for sure. I don't like it when people are like, no, there's no side effects. There's no changes in behavior if someone takes, 15 times or 100 times the dose of testosterone in their body.  Of course it's gonna have something. It could be very subtle, but it's gonna have some kind of effect.  You know, if you're already somebody who is a prick and has a temper and then you take something like that, it tends to exaggerate. In my experience. It seems like less empathy is involved. Yeah, yeah. And in my experience, when I've had friends, like I said, very close friends who've done hardcore cycles, when I see the biggest change in their behavior is when they're cycling off. Oh yeah, when they come off there. When they come out, because it's so unbalanced that it's not good.  That's when you know, yeah. Yeah, that's when you really see what it was ramping up to and they're like, often it's like this hot mess and crying and all these like crazy feelings.  What I've noticed when my buddies will take high doses, when they're taking the high doses, all I notice is they just they're, what I would see, typically not all of them, cause some of them you just can't even tell, but some of you just get this inflated ego, right?  I can lift, I can do all these different things. I'm so horny.  But I mean, if they're hiding it from you, I think the problem isn't necessarily steroids. It's the fact that maybe you don't have the communication. Well, and I think that, cause I feel like right now, and I'm trying to defend that he or her, I don't know if it's, I can't, this person's profile's private, so I don't know if I'm talking to a female or male, but I feel the need to defend the other person because I think with communication and in my relationships in the past, so like, Katrina and I have a total different relation. It's full disclosure. She knew from day one, everything I'd always, you know, which is the best. Right, and I think that it took me years until I was in my 30s that I realized like, that's the relationship I want. I want a relationship that I can share anything and everything that I do and not be judged by my partner, be able to communicate. And then her openly be able to say, I have a problem with it and say she doesn't like it. And you know, and I've told her that before and you know, I wouldn't want her to, like I'd want her to not be okay if she saw me abusing something or letting it take control of my life and I would like that open communication. So I think as a partner, you have to be careful too on how you come at this conversation because if you hammer this, your partner for not sharing this, maybe they didn't share it for a reason because you may be the type of person that's inflammatory when you share something that maybe you don't agree or know a lot about.  Someone like this like, you know, I don't know the person who's taking it.   It's so crazy, anyone that's been in enough relationships, when you have all the freedom in the world, it's less desirable to go run off and cheat on somebody but if you've got a partner who's calling you every five minutes, where are you at, what are you doing, what are you doing, it's always that relationship where they end up cheating. That's not gonna last.  Well not only that, but what are you doing? Right. I mean like people who tend to be super suspicious like that, they're the ones that tend to be the ones. And I feel like the same thing goes with something like this, it's like everybody, you know, if it's bothering you so much that they didn't share, like well maybe, and again, this is just how I approach it, if I'm this person, I'm always looking at myself, what, how can I make this, why didn't this person wanna share this with me? Why didn't they feel comfortable and not share this with me? Right, exactly, like if Katrina was hiding something like this from me, like let's just say we've been together for six and a half years and all of a sudden I found out she dabbles in cocaine a little bit. Like she's not like addicted. Like what? But you know, sometimes she has crazy. That's left field. Crazy, yeah, that's how this could feel for this person, right? Yeah, totally. And so one day I find out, I just happened to be putting away her panties from laundry and she's got a little bag of cocaine in there.   And I'm like, oh my God. And so we get this. Got all terrible. It would be, right? It would be, but this could be kind of like how this person feels. Now, how do I react, right? Six and a half years deep, we share everything together. We know everything about each other. It's just any little. And she tells me, and what if she told me, okay, how would you handle this? She tells me that, honey, that little bag you see right there, that's lasted me.  But let's just say, that's why I would be so mind blowing because she doesn't do any of that. If she, and she tells me that, that little baggy she's had for over a year and she hasn't even gone through half of it. So maybe I can count on one hand how many times that she's actually done it and used it. Now, how do I handle that? What am I really mad at? Am I mad because she's done cocaine five times? Or because she hasn't shared. Or that she hasn't shared. Is she up to it? Right, right. Or that she hasn't shared. But really, I'm not mad at her in this whole situation. I'm wondering, because we have such an open relationship and we talk so much about everything. Why hasn't she talked to me? Yeah, why wouldn't you just tell me? Like that you needed that. I had a buddy years ago who was just this guy who was hardcore into dabbling with all the steroids. Terrible genetics, too.  But anyway, he starts dating this girl and she knows about all the stuff that he took. And he talks her into letting him inject her with testosterone because he knows testosterone makes people horny.  So I'm gonna give my girl testosterone. She's gonna get horny. We're gonna get all freaky.  What? Yeah, so. He gave it to her. So he starts, he gives her testosterone.  This is true, true story now. This is way back. Oh my God. Way back when I was the first month I was assistant manager at 24 Fitness. He gave her a freaking shot of Sustenon 250. 250 milligrams of testosterone.  Like if fucks with her head so much she becomes this emotional mess and that's long acting.  It was terrible. Oh yeah, it was terrible. What an idea.  Wow, yeah. I would address. He's like, this will make you horny.  Regardless. Why would you do that? I would stick her to a rom-com, you know. I would address the communication in the relationship and I wouldn't be so angry about it as I would be more curious about why we are not at a point in our relationship where we can openly discuss these type of things because if it is somebody I love and that I wanna spend the rest of my life potentially with, I definitely don't want them to feel like they can't express or share with me and they're gonna hide all this shit. So to me, I would address that. Quick commercial break, you guys. We keep getting asked all the time how can I support the Mind Pump family? Here's one of the best ways you guys can. You guys love that Chimeric Coffee that we have. Chimeric Coffee with a K. You go to chimericcoffee.com, put in the discount code Mind Pump for 10% at the checkout. If you guys have not tried Ben Greenfield's new bars out there, fantastic. If you want some, go to bengreenfieldfitness.com forward slash nature byte, put in the code Mind Pump and get 10% off. Go check it out. Next up is Nady Lives Happy.  As a health and fitness promoter, would you consider a vegetarian lifestyle in the future? You know what? The sky is falling. You know what? The sky is falling. Let me tell you something right now. Do we need to go here? This is what we're gonna do, because he's right. Cattle do produce a lot of greenhouse gas. She's right. Cattle produce a lot of greenhouse gases.  So we need to eat them all. We need all the cows. That's what I'm saying.  Hand them to me. So you got, okay. So this is why I love these questions like this.  Is the message that we need to go vegetarian, is it being promoted by actual environmentalists, or is it being promoted by vegans who don't want us to eat animals? The truth is, it's an argument made by vegans. Environmentalists typically, they talk about changing the ways that we raise our food and do our food and all that stuff. But they don't really have the stance that everybody needs to be vegan. This is a vegan stance. And what vegans do, especially those who are vegans for moral reasons, they use every argument possible to try to convince people to not eat animals. And the latest one is it's better for the environment. And it's only an argument because of the political landscape where you have politicians who are using the environment as a wedge to get people to vote one way or another. This is also if you still buy into global warming also. Well. Because we're global cooling before. Now we're global warming. We can't make up our mind. The icebergs are melting, but another one's growing. So what the fuck, dude? Well, I mean.  As far as the environment is concerned. Did you know that? I didn't know that until I actually went up there. When we went up to go to the Glacier Bay, and of course they talk about global warming and they're showing us like the glaciers. This is where they were in 1960. This is where they were at in 1990. And this is where they're at now, right? But nobody ever talks about that. So out of all these glaciers, I think I can't remember how many were in Glacier Bay Park. There's a ton of them, right? There's actually a significant percentage of them that are actually growing. That the glaciers are actually growing. That's not known information. Nobody talks about that. All right, so we're gonna go down this path. So here's the thing you want to consider with that. You think I'm a flat earther? Here's the thing that you want to go down. You want to consider with that. This topic always ruffles everybody's nose. I know. It's a third rail. It is a very complicated, very complicated topic. Many, many, many scientists believe that we are in fact influencing global climate trends. I'm not a scientist in this. I'm not gonna debate them. Here's the real debate. The real debate is because what we also need to understand is that the 20th century saw the largest migration of the world's poor to the world's middle class, the fastest and largest migration that we saw in all of human history. We literally, the United Nations or the organizations whose goals were to reduce poverty by X percent and we exceeded that like a decade earlier. Part of the reason is because markets became more free worldwide, which we know grows prosperity. And the other part is this is fueled by petroleum-based products. The industrial revolution started. If we eliminate oil and petroleum-based products, which by the way, it's not just oil. We use these products in everything. If we eliminate that, you will see a massive, massive, massive death worldwide. If we reduce production of greenhouse gases through legislation, like if we say, hey, if you produce it, you gotta pay a tax on all this or you can't produce this greenhouse gases, wealthy people like us, I mean, we'll notice like things are more expensive stuff, but we're okay. But you go to an emerging market like some people in China or Brazil or Mexico or areas in Africa where these people two decades ago were super poor and now they're coming out, they're considered emerging markets. You implement some of this legislation on them and you're gonna see people dying. You're gonna see people starving to death. You're gonna see problems. So because a tax or legislation on us who have all this money, it'll affect us, but not that much.  You add a 10% tax on something to people who have just come out of poverty and now you're talking about starving these people to death.    Like if you guys watched Al Gore's documentary in An Inconvenient Truth, the first one or whatever, by now he predicted we all be underwater and crazy shit would happen. And this was based on the science. Obviously it was wrong. Because it's a very complicated thing to figure out. So as far as the environment is concerned, I think it's definitely a good thing to want a cleaner environment.  And let me tell you something right now. There are special interests on both sides. There are people who are profiting from pushing this agenda that we need to have these crazy environmental restrictions on everybody because they profit from those as well. They also eliminate competition. Nothing, by the way, is gonna change or improve the environment faster than innovation that is cheaper than petroleum.   If somebody discovered that, okay, tomorrow everybody would dump oil. That's a fact, that's just the way it is. The argument to go vegan and to eliminate the cows because of this is would be as silly as to, because the cows are number three is what they claim. Oh, for environmental pollution? So you wanna know what number one would be is us. Well, waste.  It's our waste, right?   And it's also, look, food waste is a bigger producer of pollution for the earth and vegetable and products are, we throw more of that away than we do meat and fish products. So, and by the way, growing plants isn't this environmentally friendly, awesome thing. Transporting it, having the land to plant it. We also tend to stick to certain crops because of their ease of how we grow them. They tend to be GMO.   Yeah, so really, if we really wanna do the right thing with our food supply for the environment, what we'll end up doing is eating insects and eating like algae's. Like we'll grow algae's instead of growing corn, wheat and all this like rice. Rice is tremendous amount of water to produce rice and all that stuff. We'll eat things like algae's like spirulina and whatever and we'll, you know. I think the things which why I'm so excited for us to partner up with a company like Thrive is I think the future of helping stuff like this is more like this, these ability to gather everybody like as a community. It's really like a farmer's market online when you think about it. Like that's what they're creating. And you wanna talk about the ideal way for us to be consuming and eating would be that. And that was the hard thing was not everybody has access to a farmer's market, right? You don't, not everybody has that ability where. There's ways we can improve, you know, the industrial farmling sort of. Big time.  And like I think that it's just gotten out of control to where it's just become this machine that it definitely needs an eye and it needs, there needs to be sustainable options and needs to be better ways to bring the community involved and get more like in touch with the way that we do all these things. But you know, like so I see that but like to say to just go stark, you know, vegan, vegetarian like doesn't make sense.  That would actually be more rational.   Everybody wants to make a law for everybody else. Here's what you do, stop throwing away so much food. That's it.  Stop being so wasteful. That's it. Yeah, literally if everybody was 10% less wasteful, you would get way, we would make way more headway than eliminating all the cows. Dude, it also reminds me of these celebrities who go and preach about how, you know, you guys, your carbon footprint is too high. Hop on your private jet. And they're flying around on their private jet with one trip, one trip on their private jet will make them more oil in the ocean. Well, it'll be, it's a bigger carbon footprint than I can produce my whole life with my car with one flight. You know what I mean?  It is funny they missed that. Yeah, so that's the stance right there.  Well, and of course, I'm sure it's a vegan who's asking the question. We promote, you know, eating vegan once a week. I think it's a great way to eat. It's good for your health. Yeah, I think it's healthy to do that. I definitely don't think it's a healthy way to have a lifestyle, though, unless you are, I mean, super dialed and if you are super dialed. It takes a lot of planning. It does, it takes a lot of planning. It's in, and then you have to be. And you have to supplement. Right, so I mean, if you're okay with that lifestyle and you like it, then more power to you. But I definitely am not gonna become a promoter of something that I think is more challenging. I think people have a hard enough time eating right or making good choices for their body. If you limit that too and you make it even more challenging, no, we're not gonna have more success. The future of food production isn't in producing more food. It's in our distribution of how we provide that food to people, how to get it to people without a lot of it going bad. How to give people opportunities to be more prosperous so they can purchase food. Yeah, let's eliminate preservatives and see what happens. Yeah, it's just, really it's in production is not the problem.  I think we're gonna start going backwards. I think we're gonna have more and more people will start growing their own stuff, I think. I think you're gonna see, I mean, I know I want to. I know that's one of my things is I wanna have a property where I can pretty much live off of my land for the most part. That makes a lot of sense. I think that's gonna, I think eventually prices will get so ridiculous in order to have it, to know it's clean sourced and all these things that eventually just be like, honey, this is ridiculous. Instead of us putting a garage for our car that we don't drive anymore.  That's just meat. It's just grown. You bypass the animal completely. Now it's like, oh, well, there's no conflict with this meat, right? It's just grown. At some, I'm sure at some point they'll figure out how to make synthetic food that's good for you. They haven't figured, they're nowhere near figuring that out yet, so don't try it, but at some point science should catch up. Lifeless food, it doesn't make sense to you. Yeah, we'll see about that. Check it out. Go to YouTube, subscribe to our fitness channel. It's Mind Pump TV. We post a new video every single day. You gotta see the latest one that was up there. I think it was like how to set up your bench press. 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Do you have other topics? This is not really like high priority. No, I just wanted to bring up that. Yeah, that's fine. Let's just gather if there's any other items that people want to talk about. Okay. So yeah, I think we have a long sending like all the issues switch C++ standard library to lib C++. So I think Matt, your question is basically how much lib C++ is used, right? Yeah, I mean, just because, again, my information might be way out of date, but I remember last time that I had looked into this, it didn't, it seemed like, you know, people were starting to move to Clang, but most people that were using Clang were still using the GCC standard library. So I just wasn't sure how much production usage lib C++. Actually, my understanding again, it also may be out of date, is that on Mac OS, lib C++ obviously is like the standard library and then there's a heavy use from Linux. It was much less mature. Right. Yeah. Well, I don't have much data about this. Probably hardware, you might have better info, but like, I think Chrome have switched to lib C++ one and a half year ago, is something like last year, January is timing. And also I think the Android use the lib C++ for the Android and DK stuff. About server side, I don't have, really have much idea from there. I know some BSD, like open BSD probably use that by default, fish, that's so far I know. Okay. Yeah, I mean, it would make me feel a little more comfortable. Like if we knew that there was a little more server side use, I guess my question is, do we think that we're gonna be changing things such that once we switch, we won't be able to switch back? Or like, will a user still be able to compile against GCC standard library? I think we will still keep the compile compatibility and for the official image, we might be able to do like gradual change, like we published two image at the same time during some period. Yeah. One side job that verifies that we maintain lib standard C++ is that the idea? Yeah. Okay. This is probably a good time to, there's an issue that I open, which I will link to. But one of the things that I do wanna start thinking about is whether we want to have multiple images, multiple, you know, like, so basically we'd have a, you know, kitchen sink image with every extension and then we would have like a normal or a light version or something that has extensions that we feel that, you know, people would reasonably use. There's just, there's been some concern that, you know, particularly with providers that are trying to support, you know, quote, unquote stock envoy that as the number of extensions gets larger and larger and larger, the code surface gets larger and larger and larger. Yeah. We have that exact same consideration and then we filter out extensions.  Which, like, I think you're right, but the problem here, and this is actually partly coming from Google, but partly coming from other providers is for products like Traffic Director or AppMash or other situations, there is actually a desire to be able to bring a quote, stock envoy, right? Like take the public docker image and just have it run. And- Is that our responsibility or is that the responsibility of someone like, I could say, Tetris who's doing, you know, binary distribution? I don't, to be clear, I don't have any answers here. Like this is a open discussion. I was just suggesting that if we're starting to take the stance, which I think is reasonable for now, that extensions are like drivers and we're gonna allow drivers in from all kinds of different providers, some of which people won't care about. Do we continue to build and ship everything in our public sanctioned image? And it just, it occurred to me that if we're gonna start doing multiple images, potentially for like a lib C++ and like a GCC standard library, is this an opportunity to start thinking about multiple SKUs of public images? That's all. Okay, so my personal take, and this is, I'm not speaking for Google, I'm speaking for my area as an envoy maintainer is, you know, either I feel we're in the business of doing binary distributions and we should do a good job with that. And that involves folding and qualifying and testing on multiple platforms, all this kind of stuff. Or we should just like, we should never actually even have a Docker image involved with a binary and it's enough to make this the de facto and just full distribution. It's like, go speak to an envoy binary distributor who would do the supports and qualifications for your platform. So that's one extreme position. I wonder what others think. I definitely hear you. I don't think that's gonna fly.  And I think this get envoy thing from Tatchrate certainly helps. We like, we don't, we don't, we don't need to harp on this. And again, I'm curious to hear what other folks think also, but it just seems like eventually we need to figure out what to do with our official images in terms of whether we continue to ship every possible extension. So here's a question. So like CNCF, they'd actually fund things which are, you know, very useful to making open source work for the community. And there aren't things that, you know, necessarily, you know, the core developers work on, like for example, CI is an example. With binary distributions for that category, can they pay contractors or someone to actually do this for us? And you can manage that part of our work. I don't know. That's a great question. And I mean, that would probably be a conversation between at this point, Tatchrate and CNCF because that's what get envoy basically is. Yeah. So I don't know. What do you think, Lisan? Yeah, I think that's reasonable, like for multiple image at this point. But I think for this like specific issue about libc++, I think we will do, we will have to do some kind of like dual image for a while for that because it's breaking the only, I think the dynamic open tracing stuff. That's for sure. So dynamic tracing does a dynamic load of a library compiled outside of our build system. Is that why that? Right, right. That's what dynamic OOT does. And I think because the ABI compatibility we have here at it. Yeah. For sure it breaks the existing users of that. Have you reached out to Ryan Burns offline? I see that issue, I don't know if you are not contacting him other than that. Okay. I think the switching is not only for the open tracing issue, we have multiple motivation to do that switch. Okay, maybe just on that open tracing issue, do you wanna just either ping me on Slack or send me email and I can add Ryan Burns and we can just see if we can get that memory leak fixed. We should just do that either way. I see it on that issue. Okay. Well, I'm just saying he might not be checking GitHub but it might work better over email. Yeah, sure, but I think Josh mentioned that the memory is more libc++, more memory efficient. Sorry. Josh? Yeah. Was there something I needed to add? You're right, I have an example. I think you will mention me that libc++ is more memory efficient in terms of the standard string implementation. Yeah, it just inlines small strings into the base of print of the object. So anything 22 characters or less does not require like any separate pointer allocation. It's very efficient. I thought that was a standard string optimization these days. The standard lib doesn't do that? libc++, I don't think does that. Really? Yeah, I don't think so. libc++ does that. That's very surprising. I thought that was like a string optimization that everyone does now. Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, again, I don't have any objection to the libc++ change, I would just love to learn a little more about what the production usage looks like. Cool. I mean, this is the default in Google now, although I don't know how long, I'm pretty sure that's true and I don't know how long that's been the case. So you're using internally for all of your server software and Linux. You're using libc++? Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I think it is. There was announcements about it recently and that you have the option when building a binary to back out. Yeah, opt out of that. I mean, if you're using it everywhere internally, that's good enough for me. So... Yeah, I feel like it's getting a fair amount of mileage. Okay. So, I mean, if other people, I have no objection, so if other people have any thoughts, we can raise them, but that sounds fine to me. I mean, the part of this that I really like is that with this, we now have basically, as we track with a particular Clang version, we know exactly what software we're running on every distribution, which is quite nice. Yeah, but yeah, for the... Right, I think that's one of the major motivations for this as well. Okay. Cool. Does anyone have any more stuff on that? Anything that makes everything go smoother and makes memory smaller is good for me. Yeah, okay. I was gonna briefly talk about the regex issue since it was already open publicly and there's some things that I wanted to chat about. Any objection to talking about that? No, let's talk about it. So for people out there, there's an issue open, I can link the issue into the doc where some fairly simplistic regex causes Envoy to Oom with large input. And it basically has to do with the fact that the standard C++ regex implementation, it has some kind of recursive memory hogging implementation. So this kicked off a long discussion internally within the maintainers and the security team as to whether this should, we should count this as a CV and do it in private. And since the issue was already opened there's already warnings in the docs about regex is being very risky. We decided to do basically like a public security issue. So what I am working on right now is I'm basically going through particularly the routing API and looking at everywhere that we use regex and I'm introducing like a new regex message structure that'll be a little more flexible and have more controls and be more clear in terms of what dialect is using. And then I'm looking at the Google v2 library which is designed for untrusted input and at least as the documentation says is supposed to execute in linear time and safe amounts of memory no matter what the input string length is. So anyway, so I've been looking at that and I've been looking at introducing some new abstractions into Envoy to hide the actual regex engine and implementation for most of the code so that if later we decide to do something different than re2 we can swap it out. The one thing that I was looking at which I was I aming Josh about is that I was trying to see if I could replace most of the uses of standard regex with re2. And I think this has already been brought up but the re2 API is a lot simpler than what standard regex supplies. And there are some pretty complicated use cases in like the stats tag extraction code that I don't think re2 is probably ever going to be able to do. So my current assessment is that we're probably never gonna be able to get rid of standard regex at least in certain parts of the code where we have trusted input and trusted regexes but I'll do what I can for the untrusted part. So that's the current situation. I'm working on that right now. Yeah. Does that make sense to you, Josh? Yeah, that sounds good. Like I was sitting and I had mentioned this all I am. I was working on this like well, I think well over a year ago but I do remember that I had a goal of getting rid of regexes from that tag extraction code entirely. Yeah. And I had gotten about 95% of the way there but the technique that I was using couldn't handle a couple of the forms and so I would have to have like two strategies and it didn't seem and it seemed like with a bunch of other hacks, I got like two second startup time on 10,000 clusters which I thought was kind of good enough so I just looked. Yeah. So my question there is can we get rid of it at least from the API for stats? Like the bits that appear in bootstrap and so on where we specify the tag extraction code and just keep it for the internal uses. Yeah, that might be the case. I would rather do that as a follow up just because I don't know what people are doing there and again like if people are modeling their regexes off of the ones that are checked into the code like I almost started crying last night like these regexes are, I mean they're like you need like a PhD and like a fellowship in regex to understand these regexes. Yeah, I don't understand. We had some very smart people working on writing them and that's what happened. But like could we at least for stats like just add the again seek regexes an option there and then we'll figure out how to deal with the actual turn down and deprecation which has been happening. Yeah, I think that's totally reasonable. I think I would rather do that as a separate change just because it's not really security critical because all of the strings there are effectively trusted. So, although even that's not necessarily true just in the sense that I mean I suppose people could be generating stats that are somehow based on user input but if they're doing that, that's insane. So... How are you generating like the cluster? I've lost complete track of how you do the forward proxy behavior but originally we're talking about dynamically generating clusters based, how are you, are you still doing that? Are you naming them based on the inputs or? No, so that's not there. There's no dynamic generation of clusters. So there's no regex there. But I mean in looking through the route API, I mean there's a non-trivial number of cases in which we allow regex and they're all busted basically. So, but those I think it's straight forward to fix all them it's just that we're gonna have to end up deprecating a bunch of fields and I actually have another question for the group which is because re2 will not support all of the regexes that standard regex dialect supports. I actually am questioning whether we should deprecate the old field or just have some kind of warning and stat that basically warns people that they're using an unsafe regex and then they can have a config to like turn off the warning or if we should fully deprecate it. I'm just concerned that basically like we're gonna deprecate functionality that someone is actually using somewhere and then with the re2 engine they're not gonna be able to implement it. So, before that I have some basic question about that since we don't do any exception catching on the regex matching pass. I thought the C++ standard regs would raise the exception when runtime some issue have on the complexity than the stack. So, would that simply do that solve some of the case that we have the crashing today? I don't think so. You're good? It's an oom now. Yeah, I think the standard regs have the error stack that there was enough, not enough memory to perform a match or some error code like that. Since we don't catch any exception there today. The case that was failing though was actually I don't know how much we know and how much was the conjecture. I think just running out of stack space. Right. Yeah, there's explicitly C++ standard regs constant error code says error stack was enough memory to perform. What I can do today is I can take the case that was reported in the issue and I'll run it locally and just see what actually happens. I don't think it changes the fact that we still want to offer because it's much safer. I mean, but if that can cut by exception, I don't know if that case will be doing the catch anyway. Yeah, but I guess what do people feel about should we like on the public API perspective, should we fully deprecate the config that effectively uses standard regs or should we still allow it but warn or like have that be part of our linter? Like I could see both arguments. I mean, my gut tells me to deprecate and still someone like, you know, complains very loudly just because it's unsafe, but I'm not sure if people have thoughts there. My opinion is deprecate the old one but I have no idea what the community will say. Yeah. So I need more. Well, given our current deprecation cycle, I think my plan unless people strongly object is I'm gonna deprecate the old way and we can wait and see if people complain. And then if they complain, we can figure out what to do. Like we're not removing anything and basically from the V2 API with the V3. Yeah, that's fine. There it comes. And we don't hear any complaints in the timeframe of the V2 API or after we've deprecated and feature flag turned down this and people are, you know. Well, it's more, it's more though given all of the work that Alyssa has done with the stats and the warnings and stuff like that, there are people now that are trying to run like deprecation warning clean. So, you know, if they start seeing a deprecation, they're probably gonna notice and then they're gonna possibly complain about it. So I think that's the case in which hopefully they would tell us if they absolutely cannot move to the V2 dialect. Yeah, that's the one. If they don't, they have had a bunch of lines of needles to... Yeah. Yeah, the... The only concern I have, again, if we do this, it'll be like the six month cycle where we have to build a release and wait and then build... Yeah, that's fine. I mean, I'm doing the config in such a way where just based on some of the names of the fields, it's not like the names that I would necessarily like. Like I have to use safe underscore regex, but that's life. We can clean that up in V3. Is there a path where you, when you see a regex in the API, you attempt to compile it with RE2 and emit a warning if it won't accept it and then do the deprecation in how it is. So we would basically change the meaning of the fields. Yeah, we've discussed this before. I think this is feasible. Actually at one point I thought, what I'd like to do is make a PR into Envoy that will look at each regex and decide on a regex by regex basis if it's compilable in RE2 and make the decision that way. But fortunately I didn't go down that route. I could take a look at that. I'm also concerned just about subtle behavior differences. I feel like it's better to be explicit about what we're doing, but I could look at that. And also like, I mean, currently what guarantees are we making to our users? Are we saying, no matter what a regex if you put in there it's safe or if you happen to write one which might work in RE2 and it'll probably be safe, but otherwise it won't be safe. Like I guess it's like a very complex model for the safety of regular expressions. Whereas if you have a field which is safe, well, I mean, it says safe, it must be safe, right? Yeah, 30 and also I think that it's, it's not impossible to like look at a regex and decide that it either is directly compilable in RE2 or you could convert it to one. But there probably is a class of regex patterns which would compile in both compilers and do something different. Right, and that's my big concern. And the way that I'm looking at the messages right now at least on the API config level, and we can obviously cover this during code review as I'm actually trying to be pretty explicit and future proof about which engine we're using so that we don't wind up in this situation in the future so that people will basically know that they're using the RE2 engine. And then if magic regex engine foo comes in two years, we can add that and not break people basically. That's fair. Yeah. So as like I said when I saw that as a site idea for that is for the route matching part, shall we do something like this is like a little bit separate from the regex issue? Shall we consider something as some of the URI templating based route match? Since what I have seen so far is that the people use the regex for that purpose for a lot of cases. Isn't that basically another regex syntax slash engine? No, the URI templating is what you specify for the GRPC templating and what the format of the variable bindings in the open API spec that you do the like the curly braces with variable names. Yeah. I understand that it's not a regex syntax, but are we really saying we want to have essentially a pattern match option and you can plug in, you can specify through some enum whether it's RE2 or PCRE or URL templates, then you supply that pattern. I mean, it's something that I think is worth thinking about. I think it has to be a different issue. So we should. Right, right. I mean, it's a different issue, but like to, I mean, to reduce the radius usage. I agree. That's probably something we can do because that is a widely deployed pattern already. We saw open space stuff and zero PC transport in bindings. And you know, the thing that I like about that and I've experienced this now at multiple quote, web scale companies is, you know, as much as you try to push back on not having regex routes at the edge, they creep in, but my experience is that they're typically a very, very, very small dialect of regex and it's possible that we could do something simpler that would cover almost every case. Oh, yeah, I don't know. Do you wanna open an issue on that? Yeah, sure. Okay. All right. I guess, yeah. So I'll just keep going on that PR and I'm mostly out Thursday and Friday. I'll see if I can get an initial version out by tomorrow with all the other code reviews that's happening. I'm not sure that's gonna happen, but I'll try. Okay. I wanna add two more quick points that we're gonna just interject. One is that we discussed, actually, we discussed this internally yesterday. We like the RE2 option as the mainline thing that we think most people should do, but it's worth pointing out that PCRE mostly officially accepts the same language as stdregex and it's probably better. I don't know a ton about it, so it's an interesting thing to possibly, it should be in the table as this is not for the future. The other one is that a user can inject new stats into Envoy via a request header or a response header. I forget which one. There should be codes that- Right, but those cases all have to be turned on like for security reasons. Like none of those cases are on by default and if that's the case, then we need to fix that. Okay, we'll talk offline about that. Yeah, like I'm fairly positive that all of those cases should be edge sanitized. If you know of a case that's not, we should talk. Oh, might not be seeing all of it, but we can tell it. Okay, real quick in the one minute that we have, there's the KubeCon intro and deep dive. I sent an email about this for maintainers. I've gotten a couple emails back from Snow and Steppen. Obviously everyone that's there can come. It's mostly that we get four free maintainer tickets basically, so if people want a free KubeCon ticket and you happen to be there, just let me know and we can figure out who gets them versus who might be getting a ticket for some other reason basically. So you don't have to answer that now but I don't know what people's plans are in terms of coming to EnvoyCon or KubeCon. Yeah, I haven't figured that out because of the GCP Next in London that week. I don't know whether I will go to that live. Yep, okay. I am getting kicked out of this room, I gotta drop off. So, bye talk to you later, bye. See ya.