Okay, welcome back to the original Gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Buczelotto. My co-host, Scott Bernstein, will be back with us next week, but I'm going to be holding it down today. We're super excited to have a guest with us, Big Pete James from Chicago. Really, just a fascinating story and the way I'd like to frame this conversation is a social history of the outlaw and we'll use Pete as our, you know, his life as a way to understand that. So thanks for joining us, Pete. Hi, Jimmy. How are you? Good. Good. Great. Thank you. So if people don't know, Pete was, correct me if I'm wrong, regional president. Was that the highest rank you held in the outlaws? It was regional vice president, but I was the one in charge of the Chicagoland area. But I had, there was a regional president I had above me and then, of course, the national boss too. Okay. A national president. Okay. Thank you very much for clarifying that with the Outlaws Motorcycle Club in Chicago. But before we get into that, I'd like to rewind a little bit because I think your earlier experiences are really interesting to start maybe with your teenage years in college because if people aren't familiar with Pete's life, really a fascinating contrast in juxtaposition. Here's a guy who's at a well-known university in Wisconsin studying political science. He has an internship with the state legislature. And yet, on the other hand, he's leading the life of an outlaw. And if we could start with your college years, how did you decide to choose that path instead of staying on the straight and narrow, so to speak, and finish out your degree choosing the path of an outlaw? Walk us through that decision-making process. Give us some details, please. Well, you know, I'll tell you what. It was partly by design and partly by fate, right? So when I was young, and this is about the seventh grade, I had like a dream, but I wanted to be a boss in Chicago. I didn't know what I wanted to be a boss of, but I just wanted to be someone in charge. And then I read the book, The Godfather, and there was so much in it that made so much sense to me. And I thought, wow, if the whole world ran like this, it would probably be a better place. That I read probably in high school, right? So we started moving that way. And then for my family, I was gonna be the first one to go to college because I was gonna play, well, I played football in college. So I leave high school, I go to college to play football, but once I get to college, it opens up a whole new world to me. Now, in the meantime, well, all that's going on, I had an uncle that owned race horses, Trotters. And if you know anything about Trotters, that's could be a pretty corrupt little business, okay? And he ends up, so all of a sudden, he was like my favorite uncle, right? So he, and the parody there is, he graduated from Mark Kent University and became a CPA and decided that, no, that's not what I want. So he could have a great life being a CPA. And he decides that, no, he likes a little faster life and he ends up buying one horse and it turns into a couple of horses. And in the meantime, I'm going with him to the stables and learning about the horses and seeing the lifestyle that goes along with that. And I was pretty impressed by it. And I was like, okay, you got to take all this stuff together, put it together and come up with a plan. So when I got to college, I played football and then that spring semester, my first year, I joined a fraternity.  But, so the 70s didn't get that, but that's what was going on in the 70s. 70s only just refined what the 60s started. So here I'm sitting and all this stuff starts rolling down the pipe. You know, there's people selling weed, people selling cocaine, people doing this free love. And here I'm sitting and I'm trying to figure out, okay, where do I go?  Or do you want to try to follow that vision from when you were in like the seventh grade? And I kind of went along, well, I was in college. I pulled around with a lot of different money making deals, you know, selling weed, stuff like that, you know? And organizing, organizing and making pretty good money. But when I finished college, I went to get, I thought, okay, I really need to go into the legitimate world. So when I finished, I went and I took a few job interviews and there was one job interview and I really liked it. And it was like a pretty good job, but they did all these testing. Once they said they were going to hire you, they were going to test you, right? So the guy who was going to do the hiring and I really, I clicked with this guy. And so he wants to hire me. He puts me through these tests. So I come back for the results of the test. Long story short, he goes, we can't hire you. And I'm like, oh wow, I was really looking forward to hiring, to being hired. And I go, can I ask you why you're not hiring me? He goes, well, you scored off the charts.  And I'm like, oh, well, what does that mean? He goes, well, it means that we won't be able to help. We can't, we won't control you. He goes, we can't, he goes either, he goes to me, he says, listen to me son. He goes, either you're going to be a millionaire or you're going to live under a viaduct. He goes, there's not going to be, and here I'm no millionaire, but I don't live under a viaduct either, okay? So he goes, we can't hire you. He goes, but the other thing is that was really unusual. Well, he scored, he goes, you really scored high on the honesty test.  I go, well, I don't know if that's true. You know, I'm not sure that is true, but so once that happened to me, that kind of sealed the fate. And from that point on, I was like, okay, what can you do? Where can you go? And that's what, that's what kind of started it all. If the guy would have hired me, we probably won't be having this talk. Who knows? Who knows? Now, I got the impression that your uncle was, was he a connected guy? I got that impression, but maybe I'm mistaken. I can't say for sure if he was or he wasn't. Okay, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't pretend to say that, but I do know this, that the two times he got, well, the first time he got pinched, there was the driver, they call him drivers for those traitors, right? The driver turned states of it, right? So they all beat the case. Now, this is the mid seventies in Chicago, right? The second time they got pinched, the only guy who ended up going to prison was my uncle. And when he got out, he never worked another day of his life. Okay. And when he'd take me around the places, like when we finished up at a stable, looking at the horses, doing everything, everywhere we went, most guys he entered, this is going to sound stereotypical. And I really don't want it to sound like that, but it's going to, but most people he introduced me to all had a vowel at the end of their name. I was like, well, at that time it didn't matter. I had no clue.  I was just looking around and saying, oh wow, this is pretty cool.  Everybody's dressed to the backs. You know, they're throwing around money. You know, I hear kid, here's 20 bucks. Go do this, go do that.  I'm not really a kid, but I'll take your 20s, you know? Right.  And so he was either going to, you know, I could have easily, I could easily see you running for public office back then, winning and becoming like the majority leader in the state Senate or something like that. Like you were going to be a leader in whichever field you participated in. It just so happens that it was going to be the life of an outlaw. So I think that's really fascinating the kind of characteristics. Well, here's the one thing I want to make really clear is that I belong to the outlaw motorcycle club. Yes, I did. Was I an outlaw personality? Yes, I was. So I was an outlaw before I was outlaw. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. So to be honest, there's some pretty big difference between being an outlaw, living an outlaw lifestyle and being in any one percenter motorcycle club. Yeah, you're belonging to an outlaw motorcycle group, but it's not the carefree life of an outlaw. Yeah, that's a great point to bring up. And so let's go back to the chronology here. So after the university, so you already have these experiences, running hustles, things like that, leading the life of an outlaw. So people understand this is before though you actually formally join the outlaws motorcycle club, which is so yeah, and I want people to get confused because sometimes we throw out the term outlaw and we're using it in sort of a generic sense like, you know, John Dillinger is an outlaw and that's different than the formal biker group. Yes, exactly. And I want to make sure that that definition that's well defined in this interview because I probably did more, not probably, I know, I did more illegal activity before I joined the outlaws than when I was an outlaw. Well, there's a reason for that too. I mean, there's a lot of people don't realize there's a lot of heat on you, you know, I joined it for one reason and then all of a sudden realized, holy cow, there's a tremendous amount of heat on these people. Right, as opposed to being independent. Well, yeah, I mean, and I realized that. I mean, it wasn't like I was oblivious to it, but you don't know how much until you are in there.  You know, that's not how it's, that's not part of the program. You know that you're gonna follow rules. You know that this is what your goals are. You know that, but you really don't understand the real definition of what this is really all about until you're really in it, you know? And then it's okay.  Where before that, I preferred, okay, well, let's make up the game so that way we can make up the rules so that way we can win. Right. And I remember reading about that was some of the tech tactics you used in college to always the politician, right? Like with the social clubs, setting up the social clubs, but then stacking the deck with inviting your friends to join. So then you're always gonna win.  I actually did that with a well-known organization that's like worldwide and set records for recruiting. It was amazing. Every day I'd come home and they had some kind of promo. Like if you got two people, and it was one of those moves, elk, eagles type paternal things, right? So it was like, if you got guys to join, like two people to join, you got this, three people to join, you got this. Well, by the time, and it was a one month contest, well, in the one month, I figured it out. I was like, okay, this is pretty cool. I did X amount of people to join. So I ended up getting like 40 people to join in a month, right? So that way I knew when there was any elections, I had a pretty strong block. Right, and the national group was, they were like stunned, right? They were like, how is this possible? Nobody's ever recruited this many people that fast, right? Yeah. Wasn't that the response? Well, especially when they came to see me. Yeah. See, I was just a name, right?   And you know, it's like, well, what came today? Well, I don't know, open it up. Okay, I don't know. So yeah, so then I took that and I became the governor of that lodge.   Going back to the 1930s, Chicago. So walk us through because, walk us through that thought process when you're like, okay, I'm doing my thing and it's working and I'm making money, but I think I want to be part of this formal organization. Walk us through that, please. Okay, well, I got back to Chicago in 1987, right? I had been traveling around the country, just going, my last stop was a town outside of Boston called McCoon and I decided to come back to Chicago and my cousin had told me he could get me a straight job, right? So I said, okay, I'll do it. I came back and I worked at the straight job for a little bit and then I made money and decent money at the job and I'd always ridden motorcycles. I mean, once in college one time I traded a car for a motorcycle, right? So I'd saved up enough money and it was like, again, back to like fate or the perfect storm. Harleys came out, I didn't mind. I loved riding the bikes, but I wasn't one of these guys that wanted to sit around the garage with a 12 pack and fix the bike, right? Right. No, and that's fine if that's what you like to do. That's not what I really like to do. So then all of a sudden Harley comes out with this new motor that's called Evolution and it's like pretty reliable and you don't have all the bullshit you have with other bikes. So I buy one. I buy my first brand new motorcycle in 1991. So now it's funny because when I was out in Massachusetts one of the clubs that the big rivals were in Massachusetts I knew quite a few of those guys, right? Just through being in certain bars and through a certain business dealings that went on. So now I get back and I buy this new bike and I start riding around and just going into different biker bars and, you know, well I first started with biker friendly and then I went into biker bars. There's a difference between biker friendly and biker bars, okay? Explain that difference, that's interesting. Okay, a biker friendly bar could be like Hooters. Okay.  Okay, okay. I got you. Here, to make it simple, biker friendly, the odds of you getting beat up are small.  That's a great way to put it but I think yeah, it's understood, right? That makes sense. Okay, you know what I'm saying? So I started and next thing I know, by my house, not too far away from my house, there was a biker bar and I started going into the biker bar and I got to meet a couple of people and I was like, I always look back at things when I look back at things and during most of my life, I've always been thankful that I was a big guy. Okay, because it just, for the things that I wanted to do, being a large help, okay? Right.  Right.  Right, but if you're imposing, that helps too, I suspect. It does, if you're, depending on which route you're gonna go down and the route that I had been chose, that was very beneficial. So now I'm hanging around in this biker bar and now here comes some outlaws. Well, the next thing I know, hey, come on down to the clubhouse. And the first time he asked me to come down to the clubhouse, I didn't even go. I was like, well, I'm not sure this is the route for me. The second time, he kind of shamed me into it. He was kind of ghosting me. I was like, are you afraid to come down there? Uh-oh. I was like, no, I'm not afraid to go anywhere. Right, right. He goes in, why don't you come down? And he says, okay. When's a good time to come down? So he goes Friday night. So I went down there Friday night. I got in there and it's Friday night, was open house night.  It wasn't the original outlaw clubhouse from like 1935, but it became known as the mother chapter. It's now called the South Side of Chicago, but that's pretty much where it all started. And everybody, that was pretty good. Pretty decent guys who had fun. I was like, yeah, this isn't too bad. And then from there, I ended up meeting the shot caller. And he took a like with me. Who was that, if you don't mind? Who was the president back then?  This is the thing here is, and it's probably in the book, which I'm not sure if it is it, but I've been out of the club for six years. What they do and what they're up to is their business. I don't pay attention. Sometimes I hear things that, you know, are going on. And I think to myself, huh, how would you handle this if you were still there?  And after the, after the side of these things, because there's something, you know what, was there a call in the shops today? It's not an easy job. It's not an easy job at all, especially if you're any good at it. I mean, you could have that job and be bad. It's like being, you know, like being the president of the United States, there's bad presidents. But that's something that I want to eventually talk about with something that we talked about on the phone last week. You and I, some of the frustrations you had when you were in that leadership role. So you were saying you met the shot caller. And so I'm assuming like they were trying to recruit you.  Right.  And if it goes through the traditional way is you go there for a while and somebody they get to like you and then you get to be called what is called a hang around and you get to hang around and you get to go to events and you get to do stuff. And then from a hang around, then you go into a lot, most clubs call it prospecting, but in the outlaws it's called probating and you do your probating time, which is can be anywhere from six months to two years and all depends on how things go. But going back to the shotcaller, so he kind of liked me, you know, and he was a tough guy. He was a hard guy to be around, but my whole life, I based everything on, I don't care how hard a guy you are. If I can learn something from you, then I will put up with that. And he was not an easy guy to be around. Most of the guys around him didn't really want to be around them because they did out of respect and that's what they had to do. But if they had their choice, they wouldn't.  Okay, go pick them up, go do this, go do that. And I would, but I knew that if I was in the car with him, I couldn't learn from him. And I did. And he taught me a lot of things. And when I took over, he told me one of the most important things that anybody ever told me when I took over and he told me straight out, he goes, look, he goes, we've tried everything. You're not gonna get rid of certain types here. Those days are over. He goes, make sure, and I remember saying to him, I said to him, I said, look, I said, how do I keep everybody safe? I go, if I make a decision to do something and how do I make sure all the chapters inside those chapters know that, oh, okay, well, something's gonna happen to brand X.   I mean, my goal wasn't my goal. After seeing what happened in the big war of 95, I realized that that's, you know, those guys who fought that war were true warriors. Those guys, those guys, they fought their hearts out. Yeah, so the stakes are pretty high.  Right, exactly. And life and death or life in prison.  So this guy told me, he said, look, he goes, make sure you always let them know that we're still around.  Don't murder anybody.  And he also said, don't worry about it. He goes, look, going back to how can I keep everybody safe? Okay, he said to me, he goes, you can't. He goes, your job is to make sure you don't end up in prison and that you can keep running the show. He goes, if you, he goes, so you can't tell everybody, you can only hope that they were trained correctly in being a one percenter.  I mean, there's guys I know that, you know, nothing's registered to their addresses. They don't go home the same way.  Right, so you're referring to in case that there was a bomb planted in the vehicle. Yeah. So you're talking about the war was between the Hell's Angels, right? They were the primary antagonists to the outlaws. So that's what you're referring to in the 80s. So the stakes are pretty high here. And that's really interesting though, that conversation you're having with the shot caller, because I mean, this is something you and I talked about last week that there's a political science here and at the micro level because, you know, I think if some people think that, oh, these guys are anyone in the underworld, it's all impulse and they're just committing crimes and they have no impulse control. And what you're talking about here is actually a leadership model. It may be applied to counterculture. It may not be in the mainstream corporate or politics or something, but it's definitely a leadership model. Yeah, and I'm gonna tell you something. There's four books that I use as like a Bible that I used as a Bible for everything that when I still refer to it to this day, but that molded my thinking. And one of them was Sun Tzu's Art of War. Now, the title, the title, would you hear Art of War? Oh, okay, how do you win a war? Well, yeah, but that's not what the title is about. It should be how to avoid the art of avoiding a war. Right. So that was the philosophy that I took with me when I ended up taking over after seeing how hard and how valiantly those other guys fought. And, you know, I mean, there was the outcome was the outcome. I mean, I'm not, I mean, my hats off to those guys, but the outcome was the outcome. And remember, there's a contrast in leadership style too, because I know it may be one of the other books are going to mention Mario Puzo's text, the Godfather Knight. And I think of the alternative model, which remember Tom Hagan and Sonny having that debate and Tom Hagan says, listen, war isn't good for business. But then Sonny says, well, then business will have to suffer. So they have two competing leadership models. It's so it's interesting. And it is interesting and business can suffer, but it can't suffer forever. Right. Because once people, once that money that flows down, once that money stops flowing, that is a lot of that is based, that money brings loyalty. Okay. So that money, when all of a sudden the money starts to dry up and you have guys live in a certain lifestyle and they can't make the money they were making because you're busy in a war, that causes a problem. That's a morale issue. Sure. That's a great point. That's, there's so much to it.  That's great. That's a great soundbite we have to use that.  I'd run it like that. I'd do this. And you have that no matter where, whether you're in a law firm, the United States Congress, you know, wherever you are, or a criminal organization, there's always motherfuckers out there.  Yeah. And we've seen that with like the, we're talking about outlaw biker clubs, but with the Italian-American mafia, I mean, we've seen certain bosses take the throne and just run the family into the ground because they're so bloodthirsty and less concerned about what you're talking about, which is a business model. Right. And there's long-term, there's short-term, and you have to think that through. Oh, okay, great.  Okay?  Right. That's a key. People think that being a criminal, oh, that's a great life.  Great point. Yeah, great point.   That's a great point, right? A lot of bad criminals out there, right? Yeah, there you go. Go ahead. I mean, I used to love it.  That means the coppers are busy. Yeah, right. Yeah, letting us focus on you. I would open it up and see maybe two or three pinches. Yeah, that ain't good. That's giving them time to be fucking, that's giving them time to be snooping around. Right, right. Yeah.  Hey, great. Sorry, buddies.  If you can't afford bail and the lawyer on your first pinch, then you're not very good at what you do. Yeah, I mean, and I remember, so you rise to the ranks, you assume a leadership position, and some of the great things that we were talking about last week was, and I mentioned that because we're both fans of the Sopranos, you and I, and I mentioned that you reminded me of Tony because Tony's trying to run a tight ship, but a lot of the people around him are not living up to those same expectations and the frustration. I mean, it's kind of comical the way it plays out in the TV show, but you're talking about real life. I can imagine it's not as comical, but if you could talk to us about some of the like the frustrations you had with like, you know, just punctuality and like trying to explain to your members how to evade police surveillance and just like some guys not quite understanding it. Well, some guys not even caring.  Right.  Look at him. No, they're saying, right? This motherfucker down, he's this guy. Right. Who is this one? Yeah. Right.  And then you got, see, I put everything in equations. Okay. Equations don't necessarily have to be numbers. They can be items. Okay. So now here we, here comes along Joe Blow. Okay. Well, Joe blows, and he's 50% honest, you know, he's loyal, he's kind of a sneak thief. He will, if the opportunity arises, he will steal. So you build this equation, right?  And at the end of it, if the equal is greater, than the minus, then be friends with them. If it turns out that it's a loss, and dealing with some of the people I dealt with, there was a lot of times guys were lost. I mean, some of the equations were really, were pretty simple. Now, let me say this to you.  That just means the equation goes into place of, will you trust this guy so that you don't end up in prison? That's where it is.  Hit equal. Bad combination. Yeah, how's that gonna work out? How's that gonna work out? Right. So one of the things about being a leader is you cannot set people up to fail. Yeah. Right? So I used to have this one guy, he was like a Coke machine with a head. Right? I mean, that doesn't look like it, right? Yeah.  Of course not, right? Well, right, and this is over simplified, but that's how people think sometimes. You wanna know what you gotta deal with?  Okay, so now you look for the little guy. This guy over here, he's five eight, five nine, five 10, 160 pounds, 180 pounds. He's a good shape.   All right, now. Okay, there's no drain pipe. You don't take the 180 pound guy and say, hey, knock the door down. The rest of us are gonna stand here and let you slam up against that door until it breaks. Oh, okay.  It'll be there all day. Yeah, we'll be here all day.   Right.    Great point, yeah. Okay, so just because you get elected to something, that by no means assures that this guy's gonna be a great leader. So the difficulties that, and not only that, but seeing because of a plan that I had taken of, okay, let's just grab territory. Wherever anybody goes, there's gonna be outlaw supporters, right? So that's where that CLC came into effect with that confederation of clubs where there was like 40 support clubs. So they were all over the city. And then those 40 support clubs had motorcycle associations underneath them. So I know that at SWAT meets, there was one big SWAT meet that used to come. There's a bunch of them, like, well, not a bunch, but there's a few that come through Chicago and surround the areas.  What if you come in here 50 strong? Yeah. What are you gonna do? And besides, those days are over. Yeah. Everything today, and I don't know this for a fact, like I said, I've been one for six years now. But if I was out there, boy, I'll tell you what, I would have to go, I would have to go ninja style, you know? Yeah, stealth.   Yeah. Right.  We would, there would never be a loose end.   Okay, go out there and buy this vehicle, it's $5,000. Okay, great. 2000, whatever it was.   Yeah. You think about all the different guys who've been pinched throughout, all the different, it all starts with, oh, they found the car. Right. Oh, that car was used in the bank robbery. That car was used in this, that car was used in the game, whatever. Right.  Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's not that kind of person. Right. He was too lazy to do the right thing. Again, going back to the equation. You want this guy?  Right. So it reminds me of the scene in Goodfellas. I'm not gonna say the whole thing because I don't want to offend people in the language that you're using in the film, specifically, but he says, remember he says to, Henry Hill's character says to Karen, he's like, you know who gets busted? And he says, Yeah, right. Because they fall asleep in the getaway car. Right, right. But you know, I know some of them all. That's true. I mean, you know, not getting the stereotype of that conversation, but it is, there's a truth to that. And you watch some of that stuff, even like Casino, Goodfellas, Lathbladder, that's part imitating life. Yeah. And if you don't really understand that, I mean, one of the great things in the book to Godfather don't threaten people. Now you think to yourself, well, that's a pretty fucking, you know, what kind of statement is that? But if you think about, if you read the book, then you follow what he describes, what he means by not uttering a threat, it's like, it says like, okay, look, if you utter a threat, that threat may be in the heat of the moment. And later you may change your mind. Yeah.  And if you don't follow through with the threat, now you become a liar. Yeah. Yeah, remember in Godfather part three, Michael Corleone's trying to mentor his nephew and he says anger clouds the judgment. I don't know if you remember that scene.   Yeah. And you know, some of it because of what you deal with all the time and something just because that's my DNA, okay? And I know I have to constantly put that in check. Yeah. And do I do it 100% of the time? No, no, do I try?  Right.  But you know, at one time and it's like, you don't, your mind doesn't get to rest. Right. And also, I don't know. Another example of, if you wouldn't mind sharing that you told me on the phone last week and I just loved it was, you're just talking about the frustration of trying to keep people, you know, keep things together mentioning that when we have meeting times, I'm going to, I have a formula. I'm going to give you the meeting times. And here's what I'm going to say, but here's what it means because police is surveilling us and if the phones are tapped and some of your guys had a difficult time understanding. Yeah, those, yeah, right. You know, and now you have to deal with this guy. But it also tells you, it also tells you he's the last guy you're going to call. So yeah, what I used to do, I used to do a couple of things.  I've seen, I saw when we have church, okay?  Oh yeah, he did. So, okay. Now, how do you, how do you do stuff? So for myself, I actually used one of those magnetic boards. And the other thing I did was, and I saw this watching one of those, I did that and I know you want to talk about how I set up the time, the times and stuff. And I will, but the other thing that I did also was, I remember seeing a forensic file or something that's shown us about the, the mob boss out in New York, they've got gun down on front of Sharky's. I forgot his name. But anyways, he's thought by playing music, that would, they couldn't hear what he was talking about inside his house. So play loud music. And I was watching this program about him and they were saying he thought that and that was a mistake. And because they can separate music from talk. Right. Right? So my thinking was, okay, put the weather channel out. Now we got all these people talking on the weather channel too. So I would always leave the weather channel out, but I'd use the magnetic board for anything. Like, how I would set, how I would set things up was like, if you watch a baseball game, I took, I love baseball, right? So if you look at the third base coach, he's over there giving signs, right? But it's called an indicator. So no matter what he's doing means nothing until he gives the indicator sign. Right. And then after the indicator comes, what you're supposed to do, bounce, swing, do whatever you're supposed to do, right? So I set it up for like on phones that a certain word would be an indicator. Once the indicator word came, then whatever followed after that was what was going on. Now for the meeting places, I had six different chapters underneath me, right?  So I went in every one of those areas and found greasy spoons where guys like us would walk in and we wouldn't turn heads, okay? So that would be the location of where we would meet. And I wrote that down on a piece of paper and only gave it to each, nobody knew any of the other locations. So A didn't know where B's location was, B didn't know where C's was, C didn't know where D's were. Now they might have talked on their own and said, yeah, he's got me going over here. I don't know, I can't say, and they might have. The dumb ones probably did, the smart ones probably did it, I don't know, right? But then I would say on the phone, listen, I'll meet you at three o'clock, which meant I will meet you two hours before whatever the number was. So I meet you at four, what time are we meeting, Jimmy? It's a test question, go ahead. We're meeting at four, Jimmy. What time are you gonna be there? At two? Is that what you said? Exactly, right. Yeah, exactly. I know, don't be nervous. I'm usually the one administering that stuff. You got me. I know, don't be nervous, hang in there. Hang in there, it's almost over, it's almost over. So how long does that take for you to grasp? Yeah, just a few seconds. I don't know, 15 seconds? Right, right. Okay, well, you know what? I had guys that, that wasn't true. You know what I'm saying?  If you weren't on time, I looked at it as being disrespectful. I remember one time I pulled out of a meat zone as guys were pulling up. And I remember Mr. Happy saying to me, hey, there they are. I go, yeah, I know, I see them. He goes, aren't you stopping?  They're supposed to be here at one o'clock. It's one o'clock. Right. So it took me a little while, but it got to the point where everybody knew that if it was one o'clock, they were there at 12.45. Right. Yeah, so the punctuality was important and wasn't a suggestion. No, laws and rules are suggestions.  So when I first got to the north side of Chicago, I didn't start there. I started somewhere else. I mean, these guys would come shut, and I wasn't, I didn't, I mean it took me like six months to become the boss of the north side of Chicago, right?  True shows at eight o'clock. Guys were showing up at eight 30. Wow.  Yeah. And not only that, but it goes to the brotherhood. You should be there at six 30. The meeting's gonna start at eight, be there at six 30 and have a few drinks with your brothers. Enjoy yourself. Not like, oh wow, the meeting's at eight. Oh, okay. I can get there by eight 15 because I gotta leave the bar where I'm at. I'm having more fun at the bar than I am with my brothers.   Well, it's a free weekend.  Yeah, I remember you were talking about like you'd have an important meeting set up and someone would suggest, well, you know, it's Valentine's Day. Maybe we could postpone the meeting and you were like just completely like stupefied. Like, are you kidding me? Want to see another Chicago Massacre?  Another save for Valentine's Day, that's good.  Oh, you know what's wrong with you? Right. And I don't be grudging Valentine's Day. Sure. You want to buy the whole way. You want to buy the wife, the old lady, the mistress, whatever you want to do, do whatever you want to do. But they don't come first. Yeah. They don't come first. And that's just the way it is. Yeah. I mean, that's the way it's supposed to be. So you mentioned the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. I don't know if you want to feel comfortable talking about this, but we talked about this last week with the Italian mafia in Chicago, the outfit. And I mean, we don't have to get into any names. But one thing that I think our audience might find interesting is it seems like law enforcement in the media tried to paint this picture that there was a formal alliance between the outlaw bikers, motorcycle club, and the Italian mafia. And they called it the double O alliance, because in Chicago, they call the mafia the outfit. And you explained to me that, well, some guys might know each other socially. Maybe some guys have some business arrangements with each other individually. But the idea that these groups conspire together and sit down and have like, almost like in the Godfather, right, like a meeting of like 30 guys that that's not true. Do you want to comment on that? Well, that's pretty accurate. That isn't true. Yeah. But you know, I mean, and I know that people, that sounds good. You know, it sounds good to flash on the TV, stuff like that. But it's not the reality of it is it's not true.  You know, I mean, I don't know if there was some mutual business or beneficial stuff. But basically, that's kind of the big problems with the motorcycle world today.  But you're not organized crime. That's a problem, you know. But when you look at it and you think, OK, well, who can we put in jail? Well, bikers are pretty easy to put in jail, prison, blacks, Hispanics, bikers, mob guys, whether it's Italian, Albanian, Russian, whoever, you know. So we got white guys to throw in with the minorities.  And bikers, bikers play right into it. You know, and that's why one of the chapters in the book, when they sent me the first draft draft, they had it wrong. Because everybody looks at it that way. They put it as crime pays or crime does pay. But that's not what the chapter was supposed to be entitled. The real title was crime does pay just not forever.   Sell it, take that money that you get back and go back into some kind of lice. The lices are pretty safe.   It's pretty hard to be a loan shark when you have titles for cash. You and I talked about the changing landscape, how it used to be you had to control the drug territory or you control the gambling territory and the physical sense of territory and that's obsolete because of the internet now technology. This doesn't work that way. Yeah, exactly. And you can look around and you can see how the internet has changed everything. I can't speak for, I can speak up to changes that I know in the biker world, right? And because of the internet, you got clubs from Australia starting chapters in Chicago. Wow. How did that happen? Globalization, right?  Now you're this. Yeah, yeah, it's changed. That's interesting. That's interesting how it's changed. Now in the United States, that's not, I mean, it's not that easy, you know? But because of the internet, you got guys from all over the country talking to each other and becoming friends. Yeah. And then saying, Brown, some guy that's in club X talks and they're basically in, I don't know, South Carolina, okay? So they're basically in South Carolina and the states are on the South Carolina.  The guy in Kansas? Yeah, okay.  He comes back, he tells us, but he's all mad that I have a blast with these guys. Hey, maybe we should start our own chapter. They said we could start our own chapter. And I'm not saying this is how it happened, but it sure appears to be that way.  I imagine that makes it more challenging for like guys, old school guys like you that had a specific leadership model. That must make it even more challenging for the old school guys. Yeah, I'll tell you what, for me right now, I don't care.  Right, yeah, that's what I imagine. I remember I had to talk with one kid, right? This was a club out of Canada, a one percenter club out of Canada. That was basically just a Canadian club.  Yeah. Okay, they didn't take us back to any of the big boys. They had some huge wars up in Montreal with big, big, big time, one percenter clubs and they didn't back down. All of a sudden, I get a call from this guy and he says, hey, I'm calling to say hello.  Right, yeah. And he says, well, I'm so-and-so, I'm calling for my boss. He wants to come to Chicago, we're out in the suburbs and he wants to come to Chicago and meet you. I go, well, where club are you from? And he tells me the club name. I go, oh, I'll wait a minute. Are you from Canada? He goes, no, we live here. Oh, well. I go, okay, well, yeah.  So they came down and meet me, not me.   And you know what, I saw him that one time and he actually told me, they told me that they had tried a club from Australia, but they didn't like them as much. So they flipped off from a club from Australia and became a club from Canada. Now, what they don't understand is they're lucky that it's this day and age where they're not gonna catch two behind the ear. Yeah, right.  Right. Yeah, that was taken pretty seriously.  There's no turf anymore. Right. Yeah, you can claim this as yours, but if you claim it as yours, now you're gonna have to be fun, but that's why people, people used to get mad at me because anybody who came to see me to set up a MC, I said, fine, go ahead. Yeah.  I go, yeah. He goes, you think that's a good idea? I go, do you think it's a bad idea? Yeah. He goes, well, yeah, I kind of do. I go, but let me tell you why it's a good idea. He's like, oh, why? This is because I don't have to worry about him. Yeah. I go in a year's time, they'll wither on the line, they won't even be around. Right, right. I go, but what happens if they come and see me? And I say, no. And they say, and they go, oh, okay. So thanks for your time. Walk out the door and there's one or two guys that are kind of tough guys. Yeah. And they say, you know what?  Right. We're gonna do it anyways. Now I gotta spend time tracking down the six guys. Right, and enforce the old school, right? Yes, yes. That's part of the issue too, that's out there. It's not worth the resources. It's not worth the time and resources to enforce that. Exactly. And I used to tell people all the time, I say, look out your window. They go, huh? I go, look out the window. Just go ahead, look out the window. And they go, yeah, okay, I'm looking out the window. I go, do you see a dinosaur walking by? They'll be like, no, I don't see a dinosaur walking by. No, you're not going to. You know why? Cause they didn't adapt. Yeah, right. Yeah, evolution. They didn't adapt and they became extinct. Yeah, right. If you're gonna continue this, you have to adapt. You have to stay faithful to your beliefs, but you have to adapt your thinking to be able to maintain those beliefs. What worked in 1975 isn't gonna work in 2020. Right. They didn't even have phones. Right, that's a good point. And I know we're almost out of time here, but one question I want to get in related to this is, you and I are fans of pop culture and we've referenced some movies and literature, but specifically with Outlaw Bikers, Sons of Anarchy was a very popular show and now these minds spin off. And you have some opinions on that because I think that factors into this, that like in talking about how like the internet has changed things in globalization and media and how now, you know, a lot of guys think that they watch Sons of Anarchy. Boy, we should form a one percenter club and things are a lot more complicated than that. You want to speak to that, Pete? Yeah, yeah.   Everybody wants to be in their own club. And all those guys that wanted to be in their own club, they did that because they didn't have what it took to actually go find a club and probate or prospect for an established club. See, in the early nineties, there was a rule in Chicago, no more new clubs. Yeah. And they enforced it.  You couldn't open up. And no matter who you knew, what kind of strings you could pull, you then open up. That kind of went by the wayside by the mid nineties, but then here comes Sons of Anarchy. And if you look at Sons of Anarchy, Jack's is a serial killer.  You don't get to murder that many people.  But if you want to really, I mean, there are some things in there that are believable. There's other things that are believable, right? But the idea that these people are watching this and thinking they can become this. I'll give you one quick story about Sons of Anarchy, right?   So we all go up there to this big event. Now rumors are that some undesirables are going to be showing up at this event, right? So we go there in force, standard operating procedures, send in a couple guys that aren't wearing anything so they can scout it out before the main troops get there.  So now we're all in there. And one of the guys comes up to me. Now he was a Hispanic guy.  And so he goes to me.  He goes up to me and he says, hey, I saw a California rocker. I go, you bet. I go, that's not good. All right, could be Hell's Angels. Yeah. Could be anybody from California basically is an welcome. Right. Okay. So I go, well, what did the top rocker say? He goes, I don't know. I go, well, you can't come here and tell me he's got California. And I'm not telling me to top rocker what the name is. Yeah. I go, get back out there and find out what the top rocker says. Okay, okay, okay, bless. I'm like, okay.  There's guys walking around with California rockers.  I go, yeah, try it out. He goes, yes. I go, what is it? He goes, son of anarchy. I go, I go, what? He goes, son of anarchy. I go, sons of anarchy. He goes, yeah, that's it.  That's the TV show.  He's not my game. Motherfucker. So that's, you know, from something that simple, the point of that whole thing is not to really put that guy in the fucking, you know, what happened to him, happened to him. But the guy with the message, the messenger, but that's the kind of stuff you deal with. Yeah. And the stakes are pretty high, right? Like you're thinking, you're preparing for a possible confrontation and turns out it's just a vest from a TV show. You know, it was like one time I was at, we were at an open house at a Harley dealer. And here comes this guy. He's got Bermuda shorts on.  He's holding his hand. He comes walking in and he's got to support your local house angels t-shirt on.   Yeah. Well, actually I am a prick, but I'm not going to be a prick to a father and a son. So I was like, hey, you know, I see a friend and I say, come here, man. And I go, look, I go, you got to understand something.  And he goes, what do you mean?  He goes, oh, really? I go, yeah, really? He goes, well, do you want me to leave? I go, no, no, no. I go, why are you here to begin with?  He goes, no, he goes, my son really likes Harleys.   And if you wear that shirt, where would you go play golf? Right.  Don't wear that shirt at motorcycle things. I go because wherever you go, some guys are gonna like that shirt.  The guys that like that shirt aren't gonna help you keep that shirt. Yeah, yeah, I mean, again, like if people don't appreciate how, you know, the stakes are pretty high here. Yeah, and it's like people just don't understand. Now, again, who knows if that's still true? You know, like I said, in six years, a lot of things can change. You know what I mean? So I don't really know anymore, but those are the things that you kind of deal with. Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. And your story, Pete, is fascinating. And we're out of time here, but I really appreciate you sitting down with us. And look up Pete's book, The Last Chicago Boss, and he co-wrote that with Kerry Drobben, who's a good friend of the podcast, and we've had her on before as well. And Pete is just an interesting guy on the one hand. You know, he's an outlaw. He's been involved in some pretty interesting things, but then he can listen to rock and roll, but he also listens to classical music. He's out there hustling, but then he's reading philosophy. Just such a fascinating, interesting dude. And we really appreciate your time, Pete. And I'm gonna text you too, and I hope we can continue talking privately because there's a lot more about the Godfather and movies and things that I just wanna talk to you about privately. So I'll stay in touch with you, but I hope you'll come back on our podcast again at some point soon, Pete. We really appreciate your time. Well, thanks. You know what? I had a good time too, and I appreciate your patience and stuff with us, because sometimes I know I get long-winded, so thanks a lot. Great story, Tyler. No worries. All right, Pete. Well, this is the OG podcast, the Original Gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucciolato. I just wanna remind our audience members to subscribe to us on Apple, iTunes, Spotify, Google, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, Instagram. Hopefully we'll get some video content up soon. We got big Pete here. This is Jimmy Bucciolato. Thanks for listening. Out.


The final item of business today is a member's business debate on motion number 1-078, in the name of James Dornan, on 100 years of Langside Library. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put, and I'd be grateful if those members who wish to speak in the debate could press the request to speak buttons as soon as possible. Colin James Dornan, to open the debate, seven minutes please. Thanks very much, Presiding Officer. I'd also like to thank those who have signed a motion and those who are going to take part in the debate tonight. I'd also like to take this opportunity to welcome to the Parliament Lauren Macnaught, the cultural services officer, and Marquis de Livey, from Langside Library, who travelled through this afternoon, after an incredibly busy day, to listen to the debate. Presiding Officer, I've been privileged to have a number of members' debates since my election in 2011, but I can honestly say that I don't think that there's one yet that gives me the personal satisfaction that this one does. You see, I have a secret obsession, although it's not that secret for those that know me well. I'm obsessed with libraries. Something I'm sure I share with my colleague ex-librarian and acting minister for children and young people. Ever since there was a child, reading has been my pleasure or anything in the house. My mum was an avid reader and so there was always something, normally Agatha Christie. And then when I was old enough, seven or eight maybe, I went to the library for the first time. Don't speak, stop shuffling, coughing, sneezing, all these rules yet it was like Alibaba's cave of treasure and I never looked back. I was fortunate to live close to a number of libraries Cooper Institute, Govan Hill, Kings Park and of course Langside Library and that was my favourite. This library was the last library built with funds from Andrew Carnegie, nearly all of Carnegie's 2,509 libraries, which were built between 1883 and 1929 were built according to the Carnegie formula. In determining where to build a library, the town or area needed to fulfil four key requirements. Demonstrate the need for a public library, provide the building site, annually provide 10 per cent of the cost of the library's construction to support its operation and provide free service to all. Like me, Carnegie had been greatly influenced by his local library and the opportunity that it gave for working boys, who some believe should not even be entitled to books to better themselves. Carnegie's personal experience as an immigrant to America, who came by his wealth with the assistance of others, helped him to believe that society should be based on merit and that those who worked hard could become successful. This philosophical tenet ran through all his charitable works, but it is his libraries that is the best-known expression of this philosophy. Langside was able to meet the requirements necessary and after George Simpson won the competition to design it, what commenced on building it in 1913, opened in 1915. Whilst we now take whiling hours away browsing the shelves of our local library for our latest book for granted, it was not always this way. Langside library was the first library in Glasgow to allow folk to pick their own books instead of requesting them from the staff. This was an enormous innovation and gave ownership and freedom to the members of the public to select whatever they saw that took their fancy. Although I suspect that, if they still had to order them, 50 shades of grey would probably be slightly less popular than that appears to be. Langside is famous for being the site of the Battle of Langside, the last battle fought by Mary Cwne of Scots. It was defeat in this battle that led to her fleeing for sanctuary with her cousin Elizabeth I in England, and we all know how well that turned out. The battle is commemorated in a large painting inside the library designed by Maurice Gryffinhagen and painted with students at the Glasgow School of Art. It was exhibited at the Royal Academy of London in 1919 and presented to the library in 1920. This stunning painting is now being assessed for restoration. I want libraries to continue to inspire people young and old, as much as it inspired me when I was younger. Langside library is just one example of a library that has had a stellar history but that is also modernising to ensure that it has a strong future ahead of it. One of the ways that it is doing this is by making it into a social hub in an area for the community to go get help and advice on a number of different issues. Citizens' advice have a drop-in service, as well as McMillan cancer, which are helping people in different ways in utilising the space that the library has. It also hosts a weekly coffee morning, storytelling sessions and bounce and rhyme sessions for parents with toddlers. The library service appreciates that by getting people involved in the local libraries that they will continue to use them for generations to come. This morning, I attended an event in Langside library to celebrate the 100 years since it opened, 3 February 1915. Among the people speaking at it were local resident actor Gary Lewis. Gary told us that he used to work in Easterhouse library and when they get requests for books they did not stop, they sent to Langside for it.  I am one of those sadists who would get excited when they came across a library they had never been in, who could not walk past one in the off chance that they had got new books in since the last time I was there, which would probably have been less than a week beforehand. Libraries have changed, but they are no longer that a stear, serious, studious place they used to be. Everything goes on in the libraries now, from toddler singing to the more mature, discussing old memories when the reminiscent box comes out. Another thing that I have noticed is that the staff seem much younger now. That is just me getting the young policeman syndrome all the same. However, the most important thing about libraries remain the same. They are a place of wonder, hidden treasures for people of all ages, incredible knowledge just waiting for you to turn their page and find it, but also fun, exhilarating and hugely rewarding. When Lord Provist opened the library back in the day he said that this was as important to the working man as lighting or sanitation. Why? Because where else could the ordinary working man get access to what we have here? He also said that the library was about more than just books and lending but could and should be the centre of the community. Interestingly, I was talking to a number of higher anchors from Glasgow Life today who remarked on how 100 years later their purpose is exactly the same. I know Glasgow Life from the process of a review to strengthen further those links with the community. I have said in this motion that those changes to Langside library that has made the library more accessible utilised the space and offered more than just the opportunity to borrow books as vital as that service is. I am looking forward to hearing from colleagues across the country about the great example of other local libraries working in their communities. If their libraries are half as beautiful or half as welcoming as Langside library is then this will be a very enjoyable debate indeed. Thank you very much. We now turn to the open debate, speeches of four minutes or so. I call Liz Smith to be followed by Drew Smith. I commend James Dorn for bringing this debate to the chamber. I apologise on two counts. First, I was given extremely short notice that I was taking part in this debate. Secondly, I have another engagement in about half an hour, so I am afraid that I have to leave before the end of the debate. I do not think that I can say that I am obsessed with libraries, but I value them hugely. I think that libraries are perhaps one of the greatest assets in any community for a whole variety of reasons. Celebrating their work is an important duty of any elected member, not least because they are so preciously regarded by the majority of our constituents. As is indicated in the motion, Langside library is one of the last to be built with the funds from Andrew Carnegie. The first Carnegie library in the United Kingdom was built in the constituency area that I represent in his hometown of Dunfermline and that was in 1883. His legacy of philanthropy in this particular area can be felt in somewhere over 2,500 locations across the world, from Langside to Louisiana, from New York to New Zealand. He was clearly a Scot who conquered the business world and then used that success, undoubted success, to bring community learning to those who needed it most. It is a legacy of which I think Scotland can be immensely proud. The revolution that Carnegie created has clearly changed over time, but it is just as important as ever, as libraries have transformed from silent spaces of reading to bustling hubs of activity covering all aspects of community living. As James Dornan has pointed out, I think that activity is so incredibly important for those local communities, because libraries now host free classes and events for local people, some of which would obviously not have been available when they first began. James Dornan also referred to the fact that there were four criteria on which those libraries had to receive their funding. I think that that is absolutely vital. I think that perhaps the two most important things were the fact that they had to be free for access and that they had to demonstrate that community was greatly in need of a facility, which probably was a little easier to do in 19th century Scotland than it might be now. Revolutionary, though he was, not even Carnegie could have predicted the seismic shift that has been brought about by the internet. However, the proliferation of digital communication has been braced wholeheartedly across Scotland and by the Scottish library system, with many people's first interaction with the internet actually taking place in a library. Today, the majority of us carrying the entirety of human knowledge in our pockets and bags. Smartphones and tablets mean that we have instant access to information, and, therefore, the increasing role that libraries have to play is a difficult one for them, because they are obviously competing with those new changes. However, I have to complement libraries, at least the ones that I know, in a thing about. I think that they have been absolutely outstanding in the way that they have approached this, because I think that the nature of our interaction and the need for libraries is on an ever-changing basis, but they have responded to that, as have communities that have a vital role when it comes to developing our facilities. I think that the Parliament can rightly congratulate Langside library today. 100 years is truly a milestone worth making, and for a century, the people of Langside have obviously been extremely well served. I just end by wishing their staff and visitors the very best as they embark on the coming week of their celebratory events. I now call Drew Smith to be followed by Christine Grahame. I begin by declaring my interest as a card-carrying member of Glasgow's library services. Like Liz Smith, I thank James Donan for securing this debate, and I congratulate the staff and the regular readers over the years at Langside, as we mark the centenary of Langside library. I was pleased to support Mr Donan's motion when it was lodged, and I read with interest some of the information that he contained within it. He mentioned, of course, the battle of Langside. It is such an important event, but I think that not that many people know that much about the detail of the battle. We know much more about the flight to Dunbarton and the exile that followed after Langside, but it seems fitting, given that connection, to be marking the centenary of the library in Holyrood. I have no doubt that the generations of schoolchildren in that part of the city will have learned about Langside's connection with many Queen of Scots through the local library, but they have also learned many other things beside it. Importantly, they will have gained, as Mr Donan himself indicated, a love of learning for its own sake through their reading and the work of the library staff over many years. It is important that we thank not just the staff who are currently working in the library, but the generations of staff who have worked in that library, and no doubt loved it very much indeed. I was also interested to read another point that Mr Donan highlighted, that it was the first library in the city that allowed readers to take their own books off their shelves. I am intrigued by that, and there must have been so many interesting discussions about allowing that to happen for the first time. Again, there is something very fitting about that, given that the history of learning in Glasgow, in particular, is so much the history of self-taught learning. The generations of people who have used the city's library services to understand more about the world, to understand their place in the world and, particularly in Glasgow's history, to understand how to change the world in our municipal libraries will appear to be an absolutely crucial role in that. The library has undergone significant change. Some have been lost altogether, as it is out of technology, cheaper books and other forms of entertainment. We have to acknowledge that another driver of that negative change is the pressure on local government budgets. I understand that, across Scotland, 22 public libraries have closed since 2008. We need to reflect on the modern libraries that are succeeding and have reinvented themselves as demanding expectations upon them. The motion makes a number of points about the services that are now offered at Langside. The one that I know best is the partnership between the city's library service and Macmillan cancer, which provides a one-stop shop for advice and information for those affected by cancer in a community rather than a health setting. Like Mr Donan, if I reflect on my own learning as a child and possibly along with the BBC, my library was pretty much my primary exposure to new information and the regular visits, which both my parents encouraged me from a young age, led to a lifelong love of earning and a wide interest in both local and Scottish history and, inevitably, of course, politics. One of my fondest memories of my library was as a child being taken by my grandfather, who was an ex-miner, to visit the wonderful model that we had in the library there of the local colliery, which was set up in the library. It had intricate details of the pit windings and you could press buttons that lit up different parts of the pit in the underground railway. It was quite a contrast to the decline of the real mine, which sat behind my school and had fallen into disrepair, fallen the closure at the end of the strike. In that same library, I read a copy of Margaret Thatcher's Memoir, The Downing Street Years, which would certainly price beyond my means and was unlikely to be a welcome edition in my house if any of us had sought to buy it. I read it with interest. I also read Robert Tressall's The Ragged Trousers' Philanthropists in my library. I have got my own motion down, marking the centenary of that book's publication, and no doubt it would have been one of the books that was regularly taken off the shelves in Langside library over the years. However, there was much other lighter material, too, the back catalogue of Enid Blyton. Of course, the three investigators were the detective series for boys, which I have worked my way through. I am a local library and many other things besides. Liz Smith mentioned this, but it was in my local library that I first used the internet. You were able to withdraw VHS films and even CDs at one time in the local library, which was a boon if you lived in a small town without a record shop. You could take the CDs home and tape them, but I would never encourage that now as a supporter of the right of artists to be paid. I would certainly deprecate that crime now, but it was a huge part of my life. I should wind up. I would do so just by saying that libraries are precious things. Although they face real challenges, it is right that we mark the success when it exists in somewhere like Langside, because they continue to provide a real hub for the local community as well as, crucially—I think that the motion says this—a gateway to learning local history, culture and even health improvement. I am grateful to you, Presiding Officer, and I am grateful to Mr Donin for ensuring that that important motion is debated in Parliament this evening. I now call Christine Grahame to be followed by Hans Alamallek. I congratulate my colleague on securing this debate and, indeed, Langside Library on its centenary, and prefaced my remarks by confessing that I have not had the opportunity to visit Langside Library, but I recognise the diverse services that it provides for the community, reflecting the services in my constituency. Early visits to libraries in my youth-involved crossing the threshold of quite forbidding place had the silence of a sanctuary where you felt even a sneeze was heretical. As a working-class girl, I had no idea where to look, what to look for, and was too inhibited to ask—can you remember me being inhibited?—but it was there that I first stumbled across critiques of Shakespeare plays. I had no idea that they existed until then, and I passed my higher English with an A pass, self-taught, by those library books. As an English teacher, however, my experience at the school library at Woodmild and Firmland, under the formidable oversight of librarian Dorothy Devlin, was indeed eye-opening. That was the 60s, and she ensured her library, though respected, was a place of interest where conversations, albeit sort of voce, could take place. We even shared lessons on teaching children how to use the library, something that I had never known, particularly those who were not academically inclined and felt like a fish out of water. I have had regards for librarians ever since particularly, as I recall, she fought for so-called unsuitable books to be available. Freedom of expression and thought was her mantra, and she won't be the first or the last librarian to take on that fight. Today, I do surgeries in Newton, Grange and Gorebridge libraries in both the most approachable and enthusiastic staff work there. This is not just because I'm greeted with a cup of coffee and a biscuit, but because of all that they do to make the libraries inviting and diverse. There is a computer room, kiddie's corner, seasonal displays of books and pictures. They both go to town at Halloween and Christmas. There are charity events and competitions and newspapers to read. Flowers on the counter, even me, it's all go. There is the surprise parcel enticement. A batch of books is bundled up in brown paper and string with a category labelled romance or thrillers. You pick your parcel and off you go to unwrap it home and perhaps find a book or two you would never have thought of choosing. The last time at Gorebridge while waiting for customers, I was perched among the autobiographies and to pass the time, I picked up David Jason's autobiography, being a fan of both fools and horses and Frost. It's a laughter page and I mean an out loud laughter page. Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to finish it, but after telling a few friends I managed to get a copy for Christmas. I recommend it on a Greek day by the fire, possibly with a malt to hand. I thank James Dornar for praising Langside Library and recognising that Langside and many other libraries have evolved into a really exciting place, very amenable, very approachable over the centuries and make a diverse contribution to our communities and indeed the librarians who are the personalities who make them so worthwhile to visit. Can I just say, Presiding Officer, I like the touch and feel of a book. You'll never get me reading an e-book. Thank you very much. Finally, on the open part of the debate, I hand to Alan Malick. Thank you very much and good evening Presiding Officer. I would like to thank James Dornar for bringing this debate today and to also congratulate Langside Library on its 100th anniversary. I particularly want to thank James because I think that James has got the essence of the whole concept about libraries. I would have never imagined James going into libraries as regularly as he suggests he does and that's wonderful. That's very positive because I think that growing up as a child, my family took me overseas and I didn't really experience libraries overseas because they weren't any there and when I came back to Glasgow, I first time experienced a library because I was taken by my local school and I said to myself, my God, look at all these books and I can get them for free. I can actually take them home. I couldn't believe my eyes and my mind so I took some home and I began to read them and it amazes me even today that the value that those libraries have for our youngsters as well as others in our community and when I used to go to the library in the early days, it was always I felt everybody was elderly. It's just I was young and so everybody looked elderly to me but as time went on, I felt the library's value was greater and greater as time went on particularly when I went to university. I was unemployed at the time before I joined university so I was not particularly wealthy and I needed to buy books for my course and I said to myself, I'm never going to be able to afford these and I sat back and I was told by one of the lecturers, well you can go to the university library and get some there and which I did but what was amazing was when I wanted to do the research, it was the libraries that came to my rescue in my local area. It's amazing about the information that's available in libraries. People can't even fathom that. My grandson thinks that tutor is better than a dictionary and I tried to explain to him but he need to know how to learn how to use a dictionary just in case you go somewhere in the world where there isn't, but they call it Google and he said to me, granddad, if they don't have Google, they won't have a dictionary either. So there are challenges that face libraries today. One of the things that I've felt and I've noticed is the populations are moving around and some libraries find themselves out of space, out of gap. There is a gap between where the community lives and where the library is and that's a challenge for the libraries as well as us in the community because there's a danger of us actually losing some of those libraries and I would very much hope that the cabinet secretary might make a comment about trying to encourage schools to house some of those libraries so that we don't lose those libraries and that they would then be hand in glove in the sense that the school children would be able to use a library as well as the local community. I'm happy to do so. James Dornan. It's very interesting to say that because one of the local primary schools today, Mount Florida Primary School, told me that they were installing or reinstalling, I suppose, a library in their school with the help of Langside Library. Gonzalo Malek. That's a fantastic example and that's exactly what I'm trying to suggest as well because I've seen, when I became the chair of lifelong learning in the Glasgow City Council, one of the things I wanted to introduce was computers and I started off with a small pilot project in five libraries in Glasgow and everybody said to me, you know, you're wasting your time, everybody's got a PC in the house but you know there was a phenomenal hit. It just brought home the message that no people do use technology, people do want to use the facilities in the libraries if they have the opportunity. So therefore we rolled the whole program out and I think Glasgow City Council have been very good in trying to support that type of innovation but I think what I would like to see more of is libraries being placed closer to the communities that I can actually use them. Presiding Officer, I know I'm running out of time. There was a lot I wanted to see about libraries because I genuinely feel and believe that this is a service that we can do without and I think that we need to reflect the time and the challenges that libraries face and once again I thank James Dorman for bringing this because hopefully it will encourage the cabinet secretary to take on some of the ideas that are being suggested today and encourage the continuation of building on the heritage that we already have in Scotland. Thank you very much. I invite Fiona Hyslop to respond to the debate cabinet secretary around seven minutes please. Thank you Presiding Officer. Firstly I'd like to congratulate James Dorman for securing this member's debate. The motion highlights the long history of libraries in Scotland and the most immeasurable impact they have on our lives. There's an opportunity to see wonderful buildings, experience works of art and perhaps most importantly in providing access for all to a timeless treasury of great literature and it's for these reasons and many more that I believe that this is an important issue to debate in this Parliament. James Dorman referred to the battle of Langside as the MSP for Langside, the last battle of Mary Queen of Scots. I reply as cabinet secretary but I am the MSP for Langside on this school where Mary Queen of Scots was born so perhaps I'm bookending this debate rather suitably. I would also like to take this opportunity to wish Langside library a happy 100th birthday. It is wonderful to see that after a centenary the library is still going strong, bringing new services and sessions to its community, ranging from as we've heard practical support, from Macmillan cancer support and citizen advice, local political engagements via surgeries with councillors and MSPs to more leisurely pursue such as storytelling sessions, coffee mornings and a knitting group. The ethos of libraries has always been a quality of opportunity and this is as relevant today as it was 100 years ago. Libraries offer crucial support to help people help themselves, to support literacy, digital participation, learning, employability, health, culture and leisure, to improve the quality of people's lives and support them to engage in the democratic process. Indeed only yesterday at the sports arts and culture working group, I co-chair with COSLA, councillors from across Scotland, Glasgow are not currently participating so they weren't there, but those councillors talked with passion about their belief in libraries and their transformational role, but also the transformation they are themselves undertaking for the 21st century to maintain their role at the heart of the community. As we were discussing at that meeting yesterday how national and local government can best work together to support libraries, I caution members that, as much as it is easy to reminisce about libraries, it is really important that we refer to libraries of the here and now in the 21st century. We in the Scottish Government are supporting the Scottish Library and Information Council to offer leadership to the sector, recognising that they have a role in providing services, wider services but their responsibility for libraries lies with local authorities. We have supported SLIC as it works with partners to develop a strategy for public libraries in Scotland. The strategy group is chaired by the CEO of the Carnegie UK Trust, Martin Evans, and is an opportunity for local authorities and other partners to agree a clear vision for the future of public library services. That was what we were discussing only yesterday. Libraries play a key role in supporting government policy in many areas. I will highlight two on the digital agenda. We are committed to increasing digital participation and libraries play an important role in providing equipment and internet access for those who do not have it, training and ensuring that those can get online and who need to get online. We have provided SLIC with £300,000, which is supporting 138 libraries to install or improve Wi-Fi in their building. That is in addition to the £500 million annual public library improvement fund that we provide to SLIC to support various projects across Scotland, ranging from World War I projects to lego reading clubs for young readers. The second area where libraries make a significant impact is in the development of good literacy skills. The Scottish Government recognises that we need those skills, and the Literary Action Plan highlights the importance of reading as a valued activity from an early age and the benefits in the home. Obviously, a lot of those issues are about equality and opportunity. That has been a theme of many of the speeches today. Obviously, tackling areas with the lowest levels of literacy and breaking the well evidence link between poverty and deprivation and poor literacy skills. The plan's delivery and impact has been overseen by the Standing Literacy Commission, who met for the final time in December, and they will produce a final report on the literacy action plan in the spring. Obviously, we also have a key role for libraries in the read-write count literacy and numeracy campaign for primary 1 to 3s, and the campaign will build on the success of play-talk read and, of course, book bug in the early years. Book Week Scotland promotes reading to all ages across Scotland and libraries, delivering much of the activity during the week. In 2014, Book Week Scotland saw approximately 481 events in libraries across all local authorities, 17,000 people attending them. There's a real vibrancy amongst the activity in libraries, and we must recognise that. During Book Week Scotland, the Scottish Book Trust invited everyone to send a love letter to the library, and the message was one of love and appreciation. As one young reader put it, I quote, I thank you for helping my brain to grow, for opening up my imagination and giving me dreams, helping me to learn to read and find out new things. We're better to encourage reading than in public libraries, which remain one of the free universal services that operate at the heart of communities across Scotland. 30 per cent of adults in Scotland use their library, and libraries remain the most frequently attended cultural venue, with almost seven out of ten visiting their library more than once a month. Perhaps one thing that libraries could do better is to market themselves, remind people of all that they have to offer and what they do for people all over the country. Saturday 7 February is National Libraries Day across the country, and I think that we should all look for opportunities to promote the work of libraries on that day to demonstrate that their services are valued within our communities. As James Dornan's motion recognises, our libraries are part of our history and remain a vital part of our communities. Their offer is universal and democratic. Free access to books, reading, internet, public space, information, cultural, historical and learning opportunities are all vital in building a fairer, smarter, healthier and wealthier Scotland. I want to bring my remarks to closing in quoting Andrew Carnegie. He said, There is no such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the free public library. This republic of letters where neither rank office nor wealth receives the slightest consideration. My local library as a child was my own personal republic where I felt empowered and first independent as an individual. I see the light of liberation in my 10-year-old son's eyes when he talks about his experience with the library. Libraries are not just about the history, they are about the present and they are certainly about the future. Although yes, libraries are about the physical buildings and yes, the books, they are also so much about the people who serve and continue to serve in them. In closing, I salute all the people who have worked in Langside library over those hundreds of years and I salute those who still work in Langside library. Many thanks. That concludes James Dornan's debate 100 years of Langside library and I now close this meeting of parliament.


Hi, everyone. Happy Saturday. Joe for Jaspy's casebreaks.com. Look at this. That's a pretty nice break. A spendy break, a pricey break, an expensive break, but there's that tiger striped Zion that Jason Jaspy pulled the other night from a personal break, so that's the kind of quality we can see in this 2019 Bonini Prison Basketball Choice Edition. Five box tiered random teams. So the entry point is a little bit higher in these TRTs, tiered random teams. Entry point is a little bit higher, but the floor on the break is also a little bit higher, right? Because we kind of combo them up, tiered them, grouped them, I think, yeah, I think we grouped them in a pretty nice way, so it won't be that bad if you get the quote, unquote, worst team. We still have a chance to get the best teams, of course, too. Big thanks to these folks. We sold it out straight up as well, so good luck and thank you very much. There are the teams right there. Let's roll it, let's randomize it. Six and a one, seven times for each list. One, two, three, four, five, six, and a one, seventh and final time. After seven, Matthew Sheerah, down to Sean Matic. Six and a one, seven times for the tiered teams. One, two, three, four, five, six, five, six, and a seventh and final time. After seven times, we got the heat group, down to the gris group, nice. There we go, so Matthew, you got the heat, suns, a bucks group, as well as the pelicans, thunder, magic group. Sean with the Nick Spurs Clippers, Matthew with the Cavs Pistons Jazz, Greg with the Hawks Hornets Raptors, CJ with the Lakers, you got my Lakers, Raptors Pacers Group, Matthew with the Bulls Warriors Kings, Paul with the Celtics, T-Wolves Mavs, Alan with the Wizards, Sixers Blazers, Sean with the gris, nice. Nets and nuggets as well. Let's alphabetize by, I guess the first group of teams right there, so Bulls, Cavs, Celtic, Gris, Hawks, Heat, Nick, Slakers, Pelicans, Wizards. While you're considering, I don't know if anyone's gonna trade, but remember, if you trade, you gotta trade the entire block of teams for another block of teams. Can't trade the Bulls for the Pacers or something like that, all right. We're gonna select a die, we're gonna select that one right there. One, two, three for the left side, four, five, six for the right side. You can see all five blocks there. I marked them so you know that they're from the same case. Three, one, two, three, so left side right here. I posted the last five boxes right here of the case, the choice case we popped open. So, there they are right there. So, we can run this back tonight if you'd like. Any trades? Yeah, Luca possibilities, second year Luca, Paul, does really well. No, nothing. We just roll. Yeah, let's just roll. All right, let's print, let's rip, good luck. Again, we just need 10 more people for the final five blocks of that choice case. I don't know if we have any more choice, but I think that might be it for now. I'm surprised that these have sold out straight up, but I guess that speaks to, you know, if you're wondering, hey, is it worth it, that price point? Yeah, these people think so. So, thank you for getting in. Good luck. Tiger Stripe Parallel is exclusive to this set. Yeah, only like, like only one pack, eight cards, but a really special, unique, short printed set that does extremely well on the secondary market. Just gonna open up all of these and then we'll go a pack at a time. All right, so if I remember correctly, think this, so right there should be the Tiger Stripe and the Auto, so we'll do these first. There's Mark Heath Morris, obviously all cards ship in a big set like this. We've got the Red Scope, Boyan Bogdanovich, to 88, two out of 88. Pacers, that's gonna go to CJ. The Mark Heath Morris Pistons goes to, Pistons on my list here. Matthew Shearer, Cavs Pistons Jazz Group. We've got Mia Oni for the Jazz. Matthew, these aren't numbered. Gary Harris, Nuggets, Sean, and Willie Collie Stein. Nice. Be sure to look all those up too, especially if they're rookies, be sure to look those up because they can carry some pretty strong secondary market value. All right, should we do the autograph first? Let's see the auto first. Behind Larry Johnson is Bowl Bowl Sensational Signatures. Denver Nuggets, I really love those Tiger Stripes. We're gonna hold those as the final card for each box. Denver Nuggets, that will be, he's got the Nuggets. Sean Mattick with the Grizzlies Nets Nuggets. I think we read yesterday that he's gonna get some minutes, almost out of necessity, but I think they're gonna give him minutes. And if he does well, that could be a big boost for him in the secondary market. All right, who's behind Larry Johnson Silver? It's Tiger Andre Roverson for the Thunder. Matthew Shearer with the Thunder. And the Hornets, of course, will get Larry Johnson. That'll be Greg. We've got Eric Gordon for the Rockets. Did I read or hear somewhere that James Harden on the Rockets dropped 20 pounds? Is that, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. That goes to CJ Monroe. There's Deon Waiters to 88, 43 out of 88 for the Heat. Bruno Fernando, rookie, Hawks. Greg. Rex, what's up? John Collins for the Hawks as well. And Kevin Knox for the Knicks. Sean Mattick, I have to say, Tiger like to all seem for, Tiger, Tiger uppercut. All right, Keldon Johnson, five out of eight. Nice low number, green for the Spurs. I did, Rex. I thought they put them on the Major League roster, but. Spurs, nice low number for Sean, the Knicks Spurs Clippers combo. And behind Kyle Guy, rookie Silver, which is nice. Tiger, Tim Hardaway Jr. for the Mavs. Tiger Stripe for Paul and the Mavs. Rookie Silver's are always nice Kings. That's gonna be Matthew Shearer with the Bulls Warriors Kings combo. A few more to go. Gordon Hayward, Silver for the Celtics, Paul. Miles Turner for the Pacers, 24 out of 88. That will be four. Lakers, Rockets, Pacers, Combo, Siege, I'm gonna have to, couldn't find it for a second. Jimmy Butler, Miami Heat Edition, that'll be for Matthew Shearer. JJ Redick, Pelicans, Matthew Shearer. And Dennis Smith Jr., Knicks, Sean. Drew Hall Day Silver, the Autograph behind him. It's Goga Batonze, go, go, go, go, go. Pacers, that will be Lakers, Rockets, Pacers, CJ Monroe, and the Tiger is gonna be a Laker. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, nice. Laker, great. That's for CJ Monroe with the Lakers, Rockets, Pacers group. All right, Justice Winslow, Justice being served to Matthew Shearer and the Heat. And got a Biombo for the Hornets. And it's gonna be for Greg, 83 out of 88. Chumo O'Keeke for the Magic, Matthew Shearer. Wilch Hamerlin, another Laker for CJ. And Markel Foltz, Matthew with the Magic. All right, the Autograph is gonna be Chumo O'Keeke for the Magic, Matthew Shearer. Sensational Signatures. And the Tiger is gonna be Markeef Morris, Pistons. Got a different picture, I think. That will go to Matthew Shearer, Cavs, Pistons, Jazz Combo. And there's Michael Bridges, Sons. Matthew Shearer, here come the Sons, doo-doo-doo-doo. And the last one, we got the Vita Zubach for the Clippers, Sean. We got SGA for the Thunder, 48 out of 88. Matthew Shearer. That's Shay Gilgis Alexander. Cody Martin, Hornets. Greg, Vince Sanity, Vince Carter, Hawks. Greg, Emmanuel Moudier, Jazz, Matthew Shearer. We've got a Tory Craig, Silver right here. The Autograph on the bottom is gonna be Isaiah Roby for Paul and the Mavs. Sensational Signatures. And the last Tiger stripe, ladies and gentlemen, Tiger is gonna be Zach Collins for the Trailblazers. And that's gonna be for Allen with the choice exclusive, Tiger stripe parallel. Trailblazers could be an interesting team. So there you go. And there you have it, everybody. Tory Craig is the Silver right there. Nice, not O for four. Allen, one for four. Zach Collins, that's Tiger. One for box, ultra rare. And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, Joe for jazby'scasebreaks.com. Thanks for watching. We've got one more five box break of this in the store. Check it out on the website, jazby'scasebreaks.com. And we'll make it happen. I'll see you next time for the next one. Bye-bye.


What's up, what's up? We got a clip today that I think is gonna completely change how artists and content creators understand making money from their own influence. Because we grow our audience, we get fans, but making money from merch shows, whatever you're selling, right? Whatever kind of product, 50 Cent was a master at doing that. And the CEO of Reebok in this clip I'm about to show you breaks down why 50 Cent sold like crazy when he was selling sneakers and what wife beaters and all those things with G-Unit. So check this out right here. What made him also really, what made it work was A, he was very engaged in the business. He's really, really smart. He's very committed, but he would say things like he would ask what's going on. I would say we're not selling as well on the West Coast. And he'd be like, okay, I'm doing nine shows out there next week. What do you want me to do? What do I gotta do? What story do you want me to go to? You want me to have more people come backstage? Like he was just a businessman. Sure. That right there is everything. He was just a businessman asking that question to figure out where are we low on sales and where I can show up, pop up, show face to make sure we drive those sales is a huge lesson that I think so many people need to understand when it comes to artists and content creators because I had to learn the hard way and now working with a lot of artists and content creators, I've seen people not understand this one thing, right? You build a fan base and you think, oh snap, I got a million followers. Oh snap, I got 500,000 subscribers. And you think just because you put something on sale people are gonna buy because they love you. But the amount of effort to actually sell something even when you have a fan base is so much further than you think it is. Most people think it's right here, right? But really it's 10 times that amount of effort not to say that you won't sell anything at all if you just put up one single post, right? But most times you have to go hard. You have to follow up with emails, right? Or you have to do four or five different posts. You have to remind people to buy by a certain day because people are lazy, people have their lives that they have to deal with and there's so many things on their priority list. So they might just forget to buy your tickets to your concert. They might just forget that you only had, I don't know, 50 shirts for them to buy or 1,000 shirts for them to buy that you were selling for your merch. So making sure that you pop up like 50 was doing, saying, yo, oh, I need to go to the West Coast. I'm gonna pop up on the West Coast. I'm gonna do a show. I'm gonna show up in these stores because now people are gonna show up to these stores because they hear that I'm right at the store. That's another narrative, right?  But oh snap, while I'm here, I'm gonna go ahead and buy because he can convert you and close you while he's present, right? And people probably might buy just to say, oh yeah, I got your sneakers so now can I take a picture with you because they might feel bad trying to do so otherwise. But literally the amount of effort it takes even when your fan base is extremely strong, I think most people, they don't quite understand your first rodeo. I remember I did an event when I was in college and I only had like three people show up and two or three of those people were actually a part of my organization because I didn't understand how much effort and then I had it scheduled at a bad time. It was so many things that came into it but the biggest thing was the amount of effort and understanding that just because you get a free ticket doesn't mean that everybody who got that free ticket is gonna show up because it was free for them, right? There was no pressure and not showing up. There was no punishment for not showing up. Now, let's look at another thing though. 50 was also incredibly immersed in the business. Like he came to every meeting on time, ready to go. And his first question, every meeting was, how many pairs we sell this week? I'm not exaggerating, how many pairs you sell this week? How many pairs were you selling? We were selling a lot. This man was focused on the goal, you wanna know, we wanna stay up to date. Yeah, 10,000. Now we were selling like, you know, 50,000, 50,000 per color at a time. We actually, no, for like the season. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. But like, there was one and he was always saying, well, how many Jordans sell this week? Ha, I love it. I'm telling you, he was literally asking that every week. Every week, or every time we had a meeting. And so one time... All right, before they get into the detail, just knowing 50 cent and how much he understands marketing, asking how many Jordans have sold that week, he's thinking, if I can actually beat Jordan, that story that I can share is worth gold in marketing. So you always wanna think about different stories that you can create from the marketing that you do or certain achievements. I think it was like 2005, we had a black GXT trainer. And I remember that, that back to school, we sold like on one color, like a lot, like 75,000 pairs or something. And it was close to what? And I'm not saying, by the way, that G-Unit was ever close to Jordan anyway. 50, I'm saying in that one moment in time, that one colorway, I think we sold in almost as many pairs as the Jordan launched for that period. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I remember telling them, and he was like, I told you, and so you guys didn't believe me. You thought I was crazy. Every time I came in here, I would ask that. Yo, there's a lot of people in these comments saying to this video, nobody was wearing 50 cent shoes, right? Nobody was wearing, didn't nobody wear them, man?  Here's two more. This person said, nobody in New York wore them joints, cap, lies, I ain't see nobody around my way wearing them and our states connect by bridges and tunnels. This is a fact right here. You do not need every single person who is your fan to convert to make good money when it comes to whatever product you're selling. A lot of people are in a bubble and they don't realize the world is a lot bigger than them. So they think the CEO of Reebok is lying about sales when he has no reason to for 50 cent sneakers years over a decade later because they can't see outside their bubble. And that's the problem with a lot of people and then a lot of artists take that into their sales and don't realize that same thing occurs. But what you have to understand is everybody doesn't have to buy. You're gonna have some fans that just don't buy and they don't support. That just is what it is. But they love to consume your content. That is their support. Maybe they're cheap. Maybe they just legitimately don't have the money. Maybe they don't like the product, that specific product. But everybody in your base does not have to buy for you to make good money. Obviously they made great money with 50 cents campaign but a thing to keep in mind, you do want to make a product that appeals to as many as your current fans as possible. So maybe the shoes could have looked better, right? I don't know, there could be an argument there.  So those are just a couple of things that I see here. But artists, content creators, when y'all sell something, whether it's a course, right? A live show experience, some merch, you have to go hard when you are marketing for that product. I don't care if you have a million followers, I don't care if you have a million subscribers on YouTube which is better than followers on these other platforms, you can't just do one video and expect the sales to go crazy. Even if you get good money that more than you're used to, I guarantee you, if you go harder in effort, you're leaving a lot of money on the table. So you don't wanna leave that money on the table and just be satisfied with what you get with the first time around. That's it for this video. So if you're an artist or content creator and you like your art, but you also like making money for your art, hit that subscribe button, follow us for more videos like that. See you in the next video.