If there's things that you can't do that the average person should be able to do, what should we be able to be able to do? We should be able to, you know, do a light run. We should be able to climb. We should be able to squat and deadlift and rotate and press and row. We should have decent energy throughout the day. We should have normal sleep when we go to bed. Like we shouldn't have heartburn all the time and like these things that we treat as symptoms all the time, like look at the root cause. You'd be surprised at how different your life could be. If you just, if you just spent a little time and took that kind of responsibility, otherwise you're literally putting your health in someone else's hands. One of the biggest challenges when it comes to success, fitness success or otherwise is that we tend to focus on the symptoms and not the root cause. If your shoulder hurts, if your knee hurts, if your hip hurts, if you can't squat properly, stop remedying the problem by fixing the symptom, find the root cause and you'll solve the issue. That's easy to say, but there's just industries around solving these immediate symptoms. Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? It's the whole entire medical industry is based off of symptom care and not solving the root issue. Do you think that's in every country or do you think that it's predominantly in our country where we're like that? I think that that old medical, you know, if you want to say medical or health care type systems. So like Ayurvedic medicine, Chinese medicine, they were very much about finding the root cause, right? Western medicine, which is extremely effective and which is why it's such, it's spread around the world, right? Like if you want any kind of medicine that'll keep you alive and solve a lot of health issues or whatever, Western medicine just does a great job. But it's very, it can be very symptomatic focused and not root cause. So like, for example, if you have a chronic skin condition, let's say you have like psoriasis or eczema, really common, right? What they'll do is they'll try to figure out a way to solve the rash or the rough skin, but not really look at what is causing this to happen in the first place, right? I mean, I talked about, I have psoriasis and I remember I saw a dermatologist for almost a decade before we ever like, and I would constantly ask like diet questions and stuff. And she'd be like, no, no, no. And they just give me shots in the cream, shots and cream, shots and cream, shots and cream on it. Like there was no, there's nothing else that I could do or even explore. And I remember being so frustrated later on. I remember when we first got together on Mind Pump, you had brought the article about vitamin D to me. And this was before I knew that I had, I was deficient in vitamin D at all and that there's like this direct, you know, correlation between vitamin, like low vitamin D levels and people that have psoriasis. And it's super obvious to me when just by me bringing my vitamin D levels of how much better my psoriasis is. And like, that's just not how they're, that's not how they are taught in school. It's literally, it's like they're, they're always looking at like some, some medicine to put a band-aid on that, on that one situation versus diving into the root cause. Well, I think to, I mean, it's, it takes a lot of detective work, a lot of testing, a lot of, you know, effort and, and time spent. Whereas if you can just give a patient something that's going to resolve like this immediate issue they have, like that's, it just seems like we fell into that sort of a system versus, you know, really finding some doctor that would be able to work with you on testing and tracing back and looking at, you know, multiple sources of environment sources, genetic sources, like, you know, getting, getting a lot of data. So taking, getting a lot of data takes a lot of time. Is it the arrogance? What is it? What is it? I think Justin's right because, you know, but why do we not do that? Because finding the root cause and then solving the root cause is a lot of work. It's a lot of responsibility.  It's true, right? Like think about it this way. I feel like it's human behavior though. I feel like it's more of an arrogance that we, we are the, we have the best, we're the best as far as solving problems when it comes to health issues, like acute stuff, like you're saying. Therefore, we have all the answers versus, oh, let's dig into all these. Well, so here's, so I think that there's some truth to that too. But think about it this way, right? I'll use a simple example.  So I'm not going to squat anymore. Right. That's the symptom. No longer squat or I'll put a knee wrap on or I'll use this machine instead, whereas the root would be, well, let's figure out why you can't do this fundamental human movement and let's solve that. But that takes a lot of work, corrective exercise, maybe have to talk to some experts, figure out what the hell's going on. I'll make it, I'll use an even more broad analogy. These days, I think most people know the behaviors that cause obesity. Okay. I think most people know if we sat down the average person and I'm not saying it's simple in the sense of how they apply it and change their behaviors and obviously that's what we have our whole show about. But I think the average person could tell you, well, yeah, I don't eat very good and I'm not very active. They would generally understand that.  I'd be the richest man in the world and everybody would buy it, right? Even if it didn't improve anybody's health, if it just made them lose weight, I would still be the richest man in the world. So I think it has a lot to do with the fact that there's a lot. Look, I'll use a personal example. My son, my youngest, right? He's 20, he's about to turn 21 months. So he's not even two years old yet. He was getting kind of this weird, like a little rash on the back of his legs and maybe a little bit in the crook of his elbow and his digestion was kind of weird, not super bad, but kind of weird. Like sometimes you'd be constipated.  Now we, and I talked to Jessica and I said, let's have the doctor look at the rash, make sure it's not fungal infection or something that, you know, that we can treat. Cause there are things that Western medicine is very good at. So she went, this was a while ago, the doctor's like, oh, um, you know, we could put a cream on that. And well, hold on a second. Like, is it fungal infection? Is it bacterial? No, but this will, you know, it's anti, it'll bring the cord, it's like cortisone, right? So it'll, it'll help with the, with the reaction or whatever. I love, I know a lot of parents that'll just do that. Rub it on. It's starting to look better. Now, thankfully my wife is like, she's very ardent about finding the root cause, which is like, no, that doesn't make any sense. Let's figure out what the hell's going on. So we went and worked with Dr. Becky Campbell, functional medicine, but that's why I love functional medicine practitioners like Dr. Becky Campbell, like Dr. Stephen Cabral, two of our favorites, right? So we did testing. Now this took work. We had to take his poop. We had to send it to a lab. They had to analyze it. She had to come back in the meantime. She said, let's have them do a low histamine diet, which meant we had to eliminate all kinds of foods. So now we're limited. So we're doing that for a while, which if you have a one and a half year old know what a pain in the acid is to get them to eat certain foods anyway. So we're doing that kind of stuff that helped with the symptoms, but that's not the cure, right? Eventually we saw there was some dysbiosis. We tried a couple treatments. One of them didn't work. The other one did. Started to balance out his gut bacteria. Guess what? The rash is gone. His digestion is getting better. This is like a month and a half of work and my wife having to go here, do this test, do that, watch all the food. We got to do this, inform my family when they go, when he goes over someone's house. The part that I find weird is that the, that the original doctor, she doesn't even mention that as like a possibility or an option. That's the part that I didn't always. It's not a part of Western. Cause I get that. That's what I mean. I get that it's, I get that it's, it's, it's arduous. And I know that you have to go through this long old process of getting to the root cause or whatever that. But I feel like the doctor should at least explain that to you. Like, well, we could just put this cream on it and that will help suppress it. This, or you could go through down this process, which might be a little bit longer, but then you get, I mean, I wish they, I wish they would at least communicate that. I do too. It's just not a part of the system for two reasons. Stupid, I agree. I think it's just us. Like Doug, when you were in Japan, what was Japan? Do you remember that? Like what it was like there? As far as medicine is concerned, they're very Western medicine. Oh, so they're like us then. Well, I mean, okay, we got to give credit where credit's due. Western medicine solved some of humanity's biggest problems, but it's not perfect. And what happened is we threw away a lot of old wisdom, because now we had these quick solutions for problems that were real, like antibiotics. I mean, come on, without antibiotics, boy, the world would be really challenging, right? But as a result, and painkillers are wonderful. Like if you have pain, guys, could you imagine what it would be like to get surgery before anesthesia or, you know, having a migraine without, you know, modern, you know, medicine or whatever it would suck, right?  Now, you think the vascular surgeon doesn't tell people, hey, you probably look at your diet and your exercise. Of course they do. Nobody does it. So instead they're like, well, here's a surgery that I could do. And here's some medicine and medication that you could go take. Plus, and you know, the training it takes to be that kind of a doctor. Now, let me ask you guys this. Well, what kind of training does it take to make someone an effective coach to help someone change their diet and their exercise? That's like another five to 10 years of experience coaching. So it's like, it's a really, really tough. So really, it falls on the consumer is my point here. Yeah, you yourself have to do the work and take your health into your own hands and do the work and realize that you're not going to get the answer the first, second, third time. You kind of got to be like a sleuth and you got to really look for and I'm bringing it back to fitness. If something hurts or something doesn't feel right, don't just avoid the movement. You should be able to do almost, you should be able to do every standard unless there's a major issue. You should be able to do every standard exercise. When I say standard, I'm not talking about the crazy ones, right? Standard. You should be able to squat. You should be able to lift something off the ground like a deadlift. You should be able to press above your head. You should be able to rotate. Okay. If you can't do this stuff, don't band-aid it.  Solve the root and you and you can, and once you figure it out, you'll solve it. You'll be able to do those things. That's my whole point.  And so it's like what you see, like there's already sort of a bias of like how I can treat this. Like this is what I do, you know, this works like, even if it's like 80% of the time, it's like, I'm just going to keep hammering this point home, whereas, you know, there's going to be people with outliers where you give them something, it's going to have a totally different effect for them. And, you know, they're not considering other systems of the body that react and then have an adverse reaction. Yeah, 100%. So let's say, give me an example.  I just feel down. I don't have a lot of energy. Like, you know, I kind of feel blank or whatever. So the doctor sends you to a psychiatrist, right? Psychiatrist is like, Oh, well, you're depressed. Here's some anti-depressant medications or you're anxious. Here's some anxiety medication. Okay. Now imagine if the doctor sent you to a, what's the name of a male, male specialist doctor that works with, with men in particular, proctologists, maybe a proctologist or somebody who works with, with men, males health, he may be like, Oh, how's your sex life? Not good. Here's some Viagra. This will help you out. Maybe that's what's going on. Or what if he goes to a hormone specialist, well, a hormone specialist will be like, Oh, your testosterone is low. That's the issue that we need. So you see that they're coming at it from, it's like when you're, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail, but that's not the responsibility and it can't be the responsibility until we figure out how to integrate everything of that one person. That's the responsibility of the consumer. It is the responsibility of the consumer, but it sucks because a lot of people don't get all that. Totally. And they're going to this expert specialist that has gone to school for eight plus years to tell them and help them.  Yeah. Like how many clients have you had to get like a, a shot for course on shot? Yeah. A course on shot.  Yeah, it worked so well. And so no more pain that then they just, they just keep doing that and keep doing it because nothing made them feel better than doing that. And so in their head, that is the answer. I've had many clients like that and like trying to talk them out of doing that was so difficult because they felt the relief. Dude, I had, I had an in-law who had some, some risk tightness. Yeah. And went to the doctor or whatever and they're like, oh, a carpal tunnel, we need to do this, the surgery, it'll fix it. The surgery, and they explain like what's going on and how the surgery is going to fix it. And I thankfully convinced her, I said, give me one month, I don't know if it'll help. I think I have some ideas, but give me a month what's the worst that could happen. At the very least, you'll get stronger and you'll have a better, you'll have higher chance of success with surgery. Okay. Gone. Carpal tunnel was gone. What did I do? Well, I looked at a wrist, but then I looked at her shoulder. There was tightness coming from her shoulder. She got some correctional massage, she did some exercises and it was gone. And a month later, she was like, I can't believe I almost got surgery. And I said, well, I mean, you didn't know any better, but thankfully you said, let's give this an opportunity. Now we're talking about the kind of these extreme examples, but for the average person, the best application I can think of is if there's things that you can't do that the average person should be able to do, what should we able to be able to do? We should be able to, you know, do a light run. We should be able to climb. We should be able to squat and deadlift and rotate and press and row. We should have decent energy throughout the day. We should have normal sleep when we go to bed. Like we shouldn't have heartburn all the time and like these things that we treat as symptoms all the time, like look at the root cause. You'd be surprised at how different your life could be if you just if you just spent a little time and took that kind of responsibility. Otherwise you're literally putting your health in someone else's hands. And then you're in this really bad situation where and you know, these are extreme cases, but I have some horror stories, man, of of clients who they they were put on one medication after another. And then those medication cause so many other problems.  I'm talking like a decade later got so fed up that they finally went and figured out the root cause, which took them a little while and they're like, dude, I wasted a decade of my life doing all these things when I didn't really have the issues that you know, that that that required all these medications. Do you think there's a lot of it is because there's just not a lot of money in it? Yeah, because a lot of these things are like stuff that people could do on their own.  I mean, there must have been 30 bottles. And he's not. I mean, he's in his late mid to late fifties at this time.  And then because I take that, I have to take this because I take this. I have to take that because I take that. I have to take this. I was like, oh, it's like walking pharmacy. Yeah. It's like one thing he's trying to solve. But the one thing he solves, he has to take something else and then he gets an adverse effect from that. So he has to take that to counter that. I had I remember the first time I encountered that I had because I saw always, you know, when you have a client or you get a client, you want to ask them questions. You have to, you know, you have to give there's like, OK, I need you to disclose any medications I need to know about because, for example, if someone's on a beta blocker, their heart rate isn't going to measure like someone else's. And so you could train them too hard and not realize it because the heart rate's not going up. Why? Because the beta blocker. So that's just one example. So I had this woman come and she was in her sixties and she brought and she wasn't well, right? She was sick, unhealthy, the whole thing. She brought me a packet. It was like four pages of medications. And I looked at them and I said, OK, there's a lot here that I'm not familiar with. Some of these I know because I understand as a trainer. A lot of these I don't. Do you mind if I call your doctor and ask questions? And she said, oh, yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that. So I did. I called the doctor, got on the phone and it was it was literally what you said. Oh, she's on. So this medication can cause anxiety. So then she'll take this, which is anti anxiety medication. And then because she's on this one, she gets constipated. So we also have her on this, which helps her have regular bowel movements. And I was like, I literally went through and I meant, oh, my God, half of these are accounted side effects of the other half. This is crazy. Dude, you just reminded me of something. Doug, maybe you could fact check me on this so I get my numbers right. But I heard that 73 or 75% of all advertising money spent in the US is pharmaceutical drugs. Really? Like 70 something percent. And you don't think there's a bias there?  Yeah, that's insane. That's a lot of money, dude. That's a lot of money. That's insane. Well, when you think about it, it's competing against all markets, like every other market, and it takes up three quarters. I'm pretty sure that's the number. Yeah, 75%. 75% of all advertising money is pharmaceutical drugs. So that is gangster. Let's go down that because that's a great statistic that I think highlights a few things. So one, here's what I want to do. I want to take my mind. I want to take out. Wow, that's four in twenty twenty four point five billion dollars. Holy cow. What's crazy about that? It's your time out there. One industry competing with all other industries. I know. That's insane. OK, so what I want to do is I want to watch this.   Let's just imagine living fairytale land. Well, let's just you're right because humans are humans, right? So and people are imperfect. Well, let's just pretend intentions are 100% pure and good. OK, here's why this is still a challenge and why we need to contend with this, because this is what drives the narrative. So what I mean by that is if you look at the fitness space, the supplement part of the fitness space is one of the most profitable parts of the fitness space. It's a fact. If you do the math, you look at all the stuff that, you know, all the money you can make. Inevitably, most people will end up promoting. No, your answer, you make money. No, you're that's a great point. And you could probably carve out the fitness space. If you looked at all advertising money that's related to fitness, I would I'd be willing to bet that 75 plus percent is all supplement. Yes. So OK, so so that's a huge that's one of the biggest, if not the biggest, we I think we agree source of revenue. So what happens again? Let's imagine there's no nefarious intent. That drives the narrative. So now what happens is the content that's produced, the discussions that are had revolve around these revenue producing topics. So you are led to believe as a consumer, maybe not on purpose. Again, let's pretend everybody's got good intent. You are led to believe that the most impactful thing you could do for your fitness and health is take a supplement. That's what you're led to believe. I believed it as a kid. Why? Because it drove all the content. So like when you look at medications, for example, when you look at blood markers that can predict poor health, right? One marker is total cholesterol. Now, total cholesterol by itself, unless it's extreme and I'm not. This isn't just hey, train ourselves. No, we're talking about this is a fact unless it's crazy extreme. OK, but if it's like outside of what we consider to be healthy within a certain reasonable amount, it doesn't mean much unless you combine it with other factors. So if we look at it and then we look at triglycerides and then we look at HDL, then we look at LDL, then we look at inflammatory markers, BMI. Then you get a clear picture. But by itself, it doesn't mean a whole lot. Like if your total cholesterol is above 200, which they say is the threshold, right? Let's say you're at 247, but everything else is perfect. Number, the data will show that it probably doesn't mean much. Nonetheless, we are led to believe or we have been for a long time that total cholesterol is really important. Why? We have medications that 100% lower the number down. Yeah, well, we have statins. Staten's will 100% lower your cholesterol. So the narrative goes in that direction. Which means so do all the studies and stuff like that to prove that. Because all the funding, because the funding goes in that direction, right? So, and then- We get rid of all the nuance that way. And in funding moves, and here's the thing too about getting things approved is it's very hard to get money for things that are alternative or novel because it's untested. So like it would be easier for me to get funding for a brand new form of chemotherapy than it would be for me to get this like real novel, interesting, weird way to treat cancer that nobody's ever heard of. People would be like, investors are gonna be like, I don't wanna fund that because there's no track record. It's super risky. The odds are gonna fail. Oh, a new chemo. Well, chemo's established. It's got some application. So yeah, let me look and see what kind of chemo that you have. So it's just, even if you take out the mal intent, it just drives the narrative. So as a consumer, you have to understand that. And no, like, wait, why do I, why is nine out of 10 articles I read on weight loss talk about weight loss supplements and not about behaviors? Right. Okay, it's not because weight loss supplements are more effective, because they're not. It's just- You gotta move product. That's the narrative. So that's why, that's what I mean by that.  I don't know, how long did you guys think supplements were the key? Oh yeah. It was in every magazine. It was in every, you know, whatever TV show I was watching about fitness, like it was always like right next to it. Well, it feeds into our psychology too. We want the easy path. Of course. Right. We want the quick fix. And so it also feeds into our psychology. So it's like a double down situation. It totally does. And I'll use even a, you know, kind of slightly related, cause it's another good topic, slightly related point of this is that we, with exercise, we value the, the sweat, the burn, the soreness and the effort, more than the adaptations, more than the improvements, more than the skill acquisition. In fact, nobody talks about exercise from a skill acquisition standpoint. Nobody comes to you and says, unless they're experienced and they've been working out for a while, no new person works out and goes, hey man, you know, how's your workout going? Oh, you have, this is crazy, but. I got great squats now. I'm way better at lunging. Nobody says I lost five pounds or all I got so sore. I'm really sweating. Yeah. You know, the truth is, if you focused on skill acquisition, you get way better results. Then if you focused on the other stuff, that was the effort and the soreness and the sweat. Well, it's interesting too, cause we'll take things like inflammation and demonize it so much because, you know, this is something that if we lower inflammation completely, you're going to be so much healthier when it's actually part of the process of adapting and building muscle, which is, you know, healing. That's the thing.  It's hard to like parse out like what type of pain. I remember when we first met our friend, Jason Phillips. This was one of the things that really attracted us to his company and what they were doing was communicating this to the clients. So I felt like there's not a lot of coaches and leaders in the space that are teaching others on how to communicate this information like to a client. It's always like, here's the problem. Here's the band aid to fix it versus, okay, let's dive into the behavior stuff. Let's dive into it. Totally. Boom, what's up, everybody? Welcome back. By the way, I don't know if you know this, but we have another channel we just started called Mind Pump Clips. So if you just want like three to five minute clips of us saying really cool, fun, smart things, things that you could share, things that you can reference, go to Mind Pump Clips and subscribe and turn on notifications on that channel. It's awesome and it's exploding. Also, here's the giveaway for today's episode, Maps Anabolic. The program that started it all, I'm gonna give away for free, here's how you can win. Leave a comment below in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel, turn on notifications, do all those things. If we'd like your comment, we'll notify you in the comment section that you won a free program. Also, we got a sale going on right now. Check this out. If you go to mapsaugust.com on there is something like, I don't know, 10 or 12 bundles, meaning we've taken two or three programs, put them together, ones that work really well together, and then we discounted the hell out of them. Okay, so each bundle, which is like I said, two to three programs, is only $99.99, that's the price of one program. So in other words, you could buy one program and get one or two for free with all these different bundles. So go to mapsaugust.com and find the one that works for you. Are you interested in fat loss or bodybuilding or strength or athletic performance or mobility? It doesn't matter. We've put together bundles for every single person we can think of. And again, we've priced all of them the same, 99.99 for each and every bundle. Again, it's at mapsaugust.com. All right, here comes the show. There's a lot of good companies out there, but that's why we chose them. You know, what I like about what I think they're doing right is, and we said this actually, I remember when we first started Mind Pump, we talked about certifications, and they're all great when you learn the information, but the most valuable thing a coach or trainer could get is when they get mentorship. Like when they work under another good experience, because that's how you gain wisdom faster. They could watch the other coach. Oh, that's what you say, and that's how you say it. And that's how they responded. And wow, I can see their energy. And NCI offers that with their coaching side. That's basically what it is, is you're getting good information. And dare I say, a lot of the information you're getting, you could probably find on your own, but the difference is you have this mentorship that they include where you're working with them. So the same way a trainer mentors a client and does a good job, they have that mentorship side where they have other coaches who are successful mentoring new coaches or coaches who wanna become successful.  Do you see the massive giveaway they're doing for our audience right now? What? Yeah, Jason called me a couple of weeks ago and asked what I'd be willing to do as far as on our side. And we're gonna do the all, like all maps programs, everything we were creative. It's like, I don't know, I think Doug totaled it all up. It was like $2,000 worth of programs to add to it. Oh wow, look at that. So this is a giveaway that you can enter into. Yeah, $38,000. So they're gonna give you, let me see if I'm reading this right. If an iPad pro filled with all of their certification in master classes, which is like tens of thousands of dollars, you get coaching mastery, which that's part of what I just said, which is designed to make you $10,000 a month in 30 days or less. Now that's their business, then they have the business accelerator program. Yeah, that's it. Yep, yep, that's it. And then on top of it, you get every single maps program. So when you win all that, you're essentially like, you're getting the top, top line. A world-class trainer immediately. I thought that was a really clever idea. How cool is that? Like you just get the iPad, it's already loaded. Yeah, it's all smart. All loaded with all this stuff. That's cool. We'll be able to do the same thing with it. That's so smart. With the programs. You know, it's a lot of cool stuff. Back to the exercise practice thing. I did this yesterday. So I came in to work out. I had, I got here early. So I had like a lot of time. And all I did was practice exercises the whole workout. What I mean by that is I did like, I did box squats and I must have did 10 sets of box squats. And each one was like, how perfect can I make this? How good can the descent be? So the intensity was like moderate at most. I did it with bench press. And then I did it with pull-ups and overhead presses. And I, man, I always feel the best when I do that. My body just feels really, really good.  Yeah, I was doing similar like thought process, but mainly like what, what I could, I could do to move my body more effectively. And so in terms of like selecting exercise, a little bit more on the functional side, I kind of came back to, to that kind of world. Cause now I'm like trying to coach kids, like how to move and like, how to like really pay attention to like their footing and, you know, being in the balls of their foot and then having that balance. And then also being able to rotate and maintain balance. And so, you know, I started to incorporate a lot more things for my shoulders, for rotational purposes. And then also like, you know, stuff with the cables too, where I'm doing chops and things where I'm doing anti-rotational moves. And I'm just controlling my body a little bit more effectively.  Yeah, I, I've just started to add back a little bit of Plios into my routine just because. Oh, what do you start with? I just jump boxes, just some basic stuff. And what inspired it was when Justin and I were helping my nephew out, you know, watching him try and organize his body just to do a jump box and see how challenging it was. And I couldn't even, you know, it's actually been years since I taught that, right? That I actually sat and like showed that and then gave tips on that. And, you know, it was interesting to walk up to the box and then just like try and do it. And there was, it actually took me a moment to like kind of organize my body to do it really properly and so like that. I still got it, you know what I'm saying? I still have the ability to do it and coach it really well. But I actually, just the fact that it wasn't just like second nature to me, which I think 10 years ago, I wouldn't even have to think about it. And it just- It's intuitive. Yeah. And I've lost that intuitive side to it. I have to kind of think about it. Isn't that funny how the body does that? Oh yeah. Just to be efficient, it literally gets rid of what you think you don't need and the way it judges it is, well, you haven't used this in a while. Yeah. So let's just get rid of this, you know? That's why I think it's so important to just, no matter what your goal, like I have no goal of dunking a basketball right now or jumping super high or like that, but I don't want to lose that skill. So just making sure that I intermittently build it into some of my routines where just kind of practice it for a little while, get back to doing it well and then I'm cool. I don't need to like increase my vert like crazy or get really, really good at it. I just want to be able to do it and not lose that skill. Dude, I saw my, like my grandmother, she went from walking to using a walker and I knew the minute she started using a walker that her ability to walk without the walker would decline very rapidly. That's exactly what happened. Like as soon as she started using a walker because she stopped practicing without it, she lost the ability to walk without it very, very quickly. I used to see that with clients. Like, and they would- It's a rapid decline, yeah. Yeah, in fact, I'm so fortunate to have worked with such a good physical therapist. I had a therapist in my studio and she was so good and she would always, she would have all these clients that would come in patients who were older and she would, to the best of her ability, be like, we are, we will only use a cane or a walker if absolutely necessary. I'm going to do everything I can to prevent you from having to rely on this or use this because the minute you use this, you're going to lose the other. I mean, she used to tell people this. And I remember as a trainer at first being like, but just let them use the thing. It's easier. And she'd explain it to me. She goes, so, Sal, watch. The second they start using this, they lose that ability right away. And that's exactly that. You know, what study would you reference to explain that to a client? Like, I remember I read a study one time that talked about how quick atrophy sets in. Would it be the same thing? Like atrophy setting in is about the same thing as you losing a skill like that. God, that's a good one. I would look at- Well, yeah, because, okay, so the atrophy stuff is like, I believe it's 72 hours after the body has fully recovered from something being stimulated, right? So basically within a week or so of stimulating a muscle, it's already beginning atrophy. It doesn't mean like completely losing. I wonder if you could look up like skill loss versus skill acquisition. And of course there's always a genetic invariance, right? There's gonna be people that- Age plays a role. Right, all those things play a role, but it'd be really interesting to see what we have out there research wise to show like, if you stop doing this movement, let's take like overhead, like how often you guys have a client that you had that you get them and they're in their, even their late 40s and early 50s and they already have lost the skill to be able to do. But that's just because there's very few things in life that really requires you to like get full extension. I wonder what the average is, time length of that decline. Me too, that's why I'm looking for like- You know what it is, like you start having challenges and then everybody else like, I'll get that for you. Next thing you know, you stop doing it. I mean, just again, I mean, when you even, okay, what's the only thing that comes to mind when I think of someone like getting full overhead extension, the closest thing to that is like putting dishes away. Yeah. Like what else- Who has, who does that that high, right? Yeah, yeah, rarely ever. So it's like, what, what move, daily movement is somebody have to like get full, full extension? Even be even more weird, right?  So our dads are cousins, they all had kids the same. So I grew up with all these guys, we're all best friends or whatever. When I was 14, three of my cousins moved to Italy. So they grew up here, born, raised, they're 14, moved to Italy. Two of them came back, one of them stayed there.  He had, it's like he had forgot almost or his brain wasn't speaking it though. And I remember him talking and kind of like struggling a little bit and he could communicate no problem, but it wasn't like it was when he left. I'm like, holy cow, that was 10 years. And it's because he didn't practice. He didn't practice speaking English, even though he grew up with it. Now there's a certain amount of skill that becomes permanent, I think, like they say you never forget how to ride a bike.  You know what I mean? Like if you could ride a bike, go on a wheelie, all that stuff, you still degrades a bit. Yeah, like I can get on a bike and still balance, but could I get on a bike and bunny hop like I did when I was 14? I don't know, I don't think so. Well, the bike analogy is not a great analogy in my opinion because of- Because of the physicality. Yes, because the physicality of in the position, it's very basic, right? Like that's why I like using like the over, like just reaching over your head should be very fundamental and basic and it doesn't require any real major skills, but how quickly the body prunes that because you just have stopped doing it for a decade or two decades or whatever it is.  I see this now in kids with, and I wonder if you see this with sports right now, Justin, is kids not breaking 90 degrees, being able to get down.  I remember seeing my nephew who at the time, I think he was only like, it's actually same nephew who's coming in here and working out.  Well, when did they practice it? Right. Exactly. It's just not a thing that like it, and I remember doing that just like kind of waiting around. I think the thing now is we never wait around. We're never bored. We never have like, we're always sitting down or we're doing something standing.  Like I was very comfortable just sitting in a squat and kind of just maintaining it. It's just so, I was having a discussion this morning with my uncle about the younger generation, right? This is what happens when you get older, you start having conversations about the younger generation and oh, they don't do this and they can't do that. And then I brought up to study about grip strength and you know, like college age males today have the grip strength of 60 year old men in the 1980s and that kind of stuff. Yeah.  He goes, this is just an ever evolving trend. He goes like, you know, we think we're badasses compared to the younger generation with certain things, but like compared to our dads and our grandparents that go back six generations. So it's just, I guess we evolve in the sense that we just don't do the same stuff. Like, I didn't swing a hammer nearly as much as my dad. So you put a hammer in my hand and you have me swing it for an hour and I'm dead. Like my hand is hurting, whatever. You put a hammer in my kid's hand, he did it for five seconds, right? Because I did more. So it's like, it's just interesting. Well, there's irony is like our body, like it needs that kind of physicality. It's still not like we're not made to sit and like have everything done for us. Like that's just not how the body thrives. So we have to now engineer ways for us to be stimulated like that. But we're trying to figure out like a way to get all those results without all the struggle. It's not always bad though, either, right? Some things like it's good that it gets pruned off so you can put energy and resources somewhere else, right? Because as we evolve and there's like some stuff that we did a hundred, 200 years ago that it will never be necessary again, like why do you even want to waste any time with that skill set because we've evolved beyond that? Yeah, it would be like saying, why do you put your clothes in a washing machine?  Right, right. And then also making fun of you because you can't do that. It's like, well, you're never gonna have to do that. You guys should have seen so I got my dad, I told you guys, I got him a membership at the club sport where I go work out, right? And we're going in the functional area, you know the grass and everything? Yeah, yeah. And I'm showing him and he's like, what do you do here? What do you do there? And I'm showing him and then I showed him that they have a big tractor tire that people will flip and a sledgehammer. And he goes, why is there a sledgehammer here? And I said, oh, it's an exercise. And they showed him, you swing the hammer. And he goes, hold on a second.  It's a second embarrassing, right? He's like, why are you doing it every single day? He's like, you know you can go get paid for that. Yeah, I'm just like, I got a job for you. He was making jokes. So what's the next gym gonna look like? Build this wall, build this house, like lay down these bricks and move them over here. Yeah, all that stuff. No, it's funny because it did spur a good conversation that I had actually with the whole family about obesity.  I mean, to the point where you can find pictures online, and I've brought this up on the show before because I think it's such a good example, you can find pictures of some circuses in the late 1800s, early 1900s. They used to have animals, and they also used to have what they called a freak show, right? And the freak show were human oddities. So it's like the bearded woman or the lobster claw kid, it was cruel and whatever, but people paid to see these oddities.  If you look up a picture of a circus fat man in the late 1800s, they would not, and remember, people paid money to see these people. That's how rare and weird it was. Yeah, it goes Disneyland now. Disney, go outside, go to Walmart. Like this guy walking around outside wouldn't even, nobody would even turn their head to look at him. And I told my, like I said, I had this discussion with some of my family, and I said, our genes didn't change that fast. What changed was our environment. So the challenges we have today are the result of this radically different environment that our bodies just didn't evolve to live in. Yeah, you combine processed foods with the fact that we've evolved past doing a lot of this physical labor stuff. It's funny, because I'm wrestling with this thing right now that I just experienced this last weekend. You guys know of all of us. I'm probably the most notorious to like farm out, work and not do it and pay someone else, right? I mean, that's like. Which is actually smart. Right, because of getting my time, right? Time is very valuable to me, and it's like, oh, clean my house for two or three hours or go do something with my son or what like that. Like that's, I'd rather pay for someone to do that. But actually something that we did this weekend, and it wasn't planned. We were just outside, it was a beautiful day. And we probably every about six months, we get like really fast weeds that grow in our backyard. We have a very really big backyard and it takes several hours to do it. And so I pay a few hundred dollars for somebody to do that, which again, I'm getting my time and it's like, I don't want to do that. And it's not that hard of labor. It's just bending over and picking up weeds for hours, right? But I was out there anyways and I, you know, so I threw some gloves on and started grabbing it and Max was into it. We actually ended up doing the entire yard. Oh, it's because you do it with your son. Yeah. And it was like this whole thing. This is where the value is with that, right? You're right. And I actually kind of had like this moment of checking myself because I'm quick to always do that. In fact, I'm the one, Katrina always, Katrina's like, oh, we got to get the yard. Oh, I'll pay someone. I'll just pay someone to get it done like that. And we already done this like four times already where I've paid, I think three to $500 to have this done.  Totally. Pulling the weeds. And it made me go, oh man, maybe I should, I should put my brakes a little bit sometimes where I'm so quick to farm it out, especially at least where he's at right now. He's so excited to do physical things with me. And I'm also thinking like, I didn't work out that day. That ended up being my workout. Like two and a half, three hours of like pulling weeds. Like I was hot and sweating. And it's like, it was physical for me. And it's like, man, we're so quick to farm this out and not do these things when there was some serious value there that I gained that I would have probably dismissed in the past and now it has me kind of re-evaluating some of these things. See, I've come from the opposite end of that spectrum and that's what has been ingrained in my own brain and being able to see that involvement with the kids like seeing you do the hard work and labor and they want to help and like get involved and they're like, oh, this is so great. And so I would like try and do all these projects and things involving them. And then I would just get frustrated and we'd kind of struggle together. And I'm like, there's gotta be a better way to do this.  It's a bad lesson they're learning at that point. It's a bad lesson, right? I'm showing a bad example, but you know, I'm finding projects I can do like that where we're still, we gotta grind through it. We gotta work together and it's not like there's not this super urgency, you know, towards it. So I can take my time. Such good awareness. It's everybody knows holding the flashlight for your dad like, oh, you better not move that flashlight the wrong way. Cause that's how I grew up, right? Like if I did something wrong, it was like. What's that movie, a Christmas story where he's holding the lug nuts for his dad while he's changing the tire, and then he drops them and he looks at his dad and he's like, fuck, can we get some big-ass trouble for saying the F word? No, that's a good point, Justin, because that obviously that's what made it was very easy but just kind of time consuming work. It was easy enough that he could engage with me, right? Like I put this little glove on him and he's like pulling the weeds and helping me carry the bucket. Dude, 100%, like I told the story before, but it's like, oh, I gotta hurry up and do the dishes so I could play with Aurelius. And then Jessica's like, have him help you with the dishes and make it fun. And yeah, it'll take much longer, but now you know what, you don't have to think of what to do to play with him. Like, oh my God, you're brilliant. Katrina came, she was texting me on the way home on Sunday, and she was coming in a little bit later than what she thought. And I was like, oh, do you wanna go catch a movie with Max cause you missed out on that experience?  I gotta do, start the laundry, this and that. I said, oh, we did all the laundry. She was like, what? You did all the laundry? I said, yeah, actually it started with me. I needed something that I wanted washed personally, but then Max was so into it. And so we turn it like, it was like this, you know, or I take one piece out, I hand to him. He put it in the drawer. It takes forever, yeah. Yeah, it took forever. But it was like, whatever, I would have been downstairs playing trucks with him or building a puzzle or doing something else. So I did something physical with him that he really enjoyed the process. And I think sometimes, you know, as parents, I know we can get caught up. It's such a paradigm shift. It is. And you have to, so you have to switch that mindset going into it of like, oh, I gotta get this chore done. Versus, oh wow, he's really enjoying this and engaging in this. And so I actually took my time of like each one. It was like, you know, to unload the washer dryer took us like 30 minutes, you know? Say thank God, because my wife was so good at that. I would have never noticed, I would have never even seen that. Now there's one downside though. The downside is if I do any chore or whatever that Aurelius typically helps with, I cannot do it without him now. Cause if he hears me open the dryer, he'll scream if I did the laundry without him now. Cause he has to push the button. So I've actually done this where I put the stuff in. He hears he runs over cause you'll be doing something. He loves doing it. He gets mad, I have to take everything out. And okay, can you help me please? We gotta go through and do the whole thing together. I'm gonna kind of throw myself one of the bus here. Maybe you guys as well. Do it yourself bro. Just me and everybody, every man in general. I know that I'm not the only one that does this and has been guilty of this. I've gotten better, I don't really care about it anymore but there's certain things like so certain chores and we have certain roles and so Courtney will do certain things, I'll do certain things and then she'll leave out of town or whatever and like, I'll just do all the things and no problem, right? And I did that a few times. Like whoa, you did all this? Like it's like so surprising, like dude it's easy, you know? But I don't wanna like expose that because now the expectations are gonna increase, right? It's like you're like- Okay, that's funny you said this because this was a very similar thought, like cause I did everything, right? And Katrina was like blown away by all that stuff like that. But I have this like, there's a little competitive side to me. Like I don't have mom, mom's not here. So dad is gonna do all of mom's stuff and dad's stuff. That's kind of part of it.  The whole house was clean, weeds were done, like everything was all done and she was just like, oh my God. Yeah, but you know what?  Of course, of course. And dealing with the kids. Of course. And dealing with the dogs or whatever. Of course, of course. It's like, okay, yeah. Good job, buddy.  You said you didn't do it at all. Yeah, totally, yeah. What I find is when I do stuff is that when I start to become more like, okay, I'm gonna handle this part or whatever. Then I become the one that's like, hey, you put your fork in the sink or, and then Jessica allows it.  So yeah, cause they just watched everything. Keep it clean, kids, you know? She's like, yeah, cause that's usually me. I mean, I don't, I think it was just more of like a competitive thing of can I, you know what I'm saying? Like that's, I have that competitive side to me, like from sport, it's like, you know, can I manage all this? Can I actually watch my son and still be able to get all these things done? No doubt, it's taxing. And it would be crazy to do that day in, day out, every single day. And I know there's a lot of people. I think it's good too to be able to see like, you know, what that looks like, you know, and like do all those things.  And so I'll get a little, a little bit more insight and more empathy, you know, towards some of those other tasks. The secret sauce though is 100% what we're talking about, which is including the kid. Yes. Is recognizing that, okay, it may slow down the process. You can take all that time anyway. That's right. It's like, it's either, because the way I looked at it was like when we were doing the laundry, it's like, okay, yeah, that laundry that would normally only take me 10 minutes to do real quick ended up taking 30 to 45 minutes. But I would have neglected doing it so I could play the extra. Or rushed it and then played anyway. That's what I mean. And it's like, instead I'm like engaging him in that. And then like what you, the point you made is like, I think it's good that he sees dad doing that. Bro, it's so good. It won't be weird when he's 10. And I'm like, hey, help dad take the trash out. Oh, hey, help dad do this. It won't be like. Listen, I need, you got, I am the extreme example of the opposite. I did nothing when I was a kid. Nothing, mom did everything.  Literally I moved out cause I bought shares of a club, a gym. So as in business, I was like, okay, response, what do I do? I moved out. I didn't know how to use a dishwasher. I didn't know how to wash my clothes. I had to ask my neighbor. I remember going to the grocery store and I'm looking for like detergent for clothes. I don't know what you buy. So I bought the powder, the liquid, the softener, the this, that, I bought all the stuff. I had no idea what the hell was going on. I put liquid soap in the dishwasher and made suds go out through the whole house. I had no idea. Is it your soap? I didn't know you needed a bed frame. So I bought a mattress and then I had no bed frame. So I'm like, oh yeah, wait, why is this on the floor? You just reminded me of a funny, the last time we just, I just got back when we had our vacation and I went to truckie, right? With my really close friends and my buddy and I, we went grocery shopping instead of the wives and we're like, yeah, yeah, we'll run. We'll go run in the grocery store, right? And him and I go and then I get the text and it was like, him and I were under the impression we're gonna go grab like five things and it was like a legit like Christian, but we were there for like four hours. The two of us, like, we were like, where's this?   I know, dude, I get lost in there sometimes. Hey, you know what it was like? It was like this, it was like, okay, we were both, and we're trying to work as a team, which was awful, right? So it's like, okay, we gotta get cucumbers and bread.  Bro, have you guys ever done this? I'm like, where am I right now? Have you guys ever done this where your wife's like, get this and you're at the grocery store and then you literally text her and like, they don't have it. She's like, yes, they do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bro. The grocery store does not have cucumber. We had to text them like three times from where stuff was. And we even got air, like this, you know, it's so bad, we got irritated. I remember getting all frustrated. Like, you could have organized a list where all the things were to get in and they were like, yeah.  We don't take the time to actually go like, oh, this is over these aisles. Why is the coconut flour not in the baking section?  What is it doing up front? I've literally done this where my wife's like, yeah, they have it. I'm like, no, this store is obviously out of it. I'm in this section, I'm looking right now and she's like, FaceTime me. Like, no, that's embarrassing. I'm not gonna FaceTime. I've done that. I'm like, you're not gonna babysit me. She goes, Sal, just FaceTime. So I'll FaceTime her, turn the phone around. She'll be like, it's right there in the third row on the, and I look and I'm like, oh yeah. It's right there, bro. Why am I not fighting this? It's embarrassingly true. This is so terrible. Anyway, so speaking of, you know, all these things require lots of energy. Okay, so here we go, here's my transition. Nice. All these things require lots of energy. I am weaning off caffeine again because I weaned off caffeine, did a good job with it, and within a week I was right back up. So, and that's a very strong drug. When you start to go off caffeine, you start to realize just how addictive and powerful and amazing.  That's my belief, 100%. So anyway.  I'll take it. It's been in humans that used it forever. Even before they had regulations on stuff. But anyway, so I am weaning off back on the Organify Red Juice. And I tell you what, man, if I go off caffeine without the Red Juice, I can't do it. I have to have the Red Juice because it does take the edge off quite a bit. Quite a bit. Big time. It's not the same. Caffeine's its own thing. It's definitely not the same, but it does kind of keep your drive going throughout the rest of the day. Oh, I don't think it's just that. I actually think that it helps mitigate the adverse effects you get at being off the caffeine. Yeah, the headaches, the fricking irritability, all that stuff. That's what I was talking to Adam. Like there's a certain point where you get so high in your caffeine consumption where I'm just drinking it. And then you go back to to have another one because you're starting to get a lull and it makes you more tired. Yes. And this is like I went through that. That's when I really like start to peel back and I don't get rid of it. I'm going to be very honest, but I do go down to like one to two cups at that point. Yeah, if I go too high, it's the three for me. Once I start, yeah, once I start and I normally will push to four before I like have the full awakening of like I have it as it making me tired. I have it. I have a number. So it's 400 milligrams above that. I got to go down. So I'll work my way up to 400 milligrams in a day. And when I start to go above that, what happens is I get the caffeine buzz and I crash hard and hard. Yeah, yeah. And I'm irritable. I'll be yawning. I'll be like on third, on the third caffeine drink. And I'm like, yeah. So and so the red juice has got rhodiola, which is a good adapted and other compounds. So what I'll do is I'll wean the caffeine off and the red juice gives you energy. So if you don't even have caffeine, you'll feel energy from it. It's such a different energy though. So it doesn't feel like you're just replacing with another caffeine. So what it does for me is it takes away the irritability. It saved my life. And the crushing exhaustion that when I come off caffeine, it's not like, oh, I'm tired. Like I work too much or I move too much. It's literally like I don't have like someone turned off my batteries. Like what is wrong with me? You know, it's the main way that I use I mean, I think probably Organifi. I probably use their green juice the most then maybe pure give or take. Yeah. And then the red juice. That's how I use red juice. I mean, that's the main reason why I use it. I rarely ever use it for any other reason other than that. OK, I'm trying to come back down on off a caffeine and it helps mitigate that. Awesome. All right. One last thing before we go because the switch over to questions here, but this is just too cool not to share. Have you guys ever seen an elephant get CPR? How does that work? Is it possible? It is. Your blown is trunk. There was no. No, there was a video of this elephant and the handlers are literally on the elephant on the carcass and jumping on it to give it the CPR that it needs. And it obviously makes sense because it's such a big animal. How do you compress the heart? Bro, there were three people having to synchronize their jumps and pumps to get the heart. And then they say it worked. Yeah, it saved it. I would think you'd even need more than that. That's what it was. It was like three people, three full grown people standing on because the elephant was on its side standing on it and pushing on it and bouncing on it to give it CPR. Crazy. I didn't know it was blowing on its mouth. No, they don't do that part. It was just a... I don't think... Didn't they drop that in CPR? Yeah, it's all compression. It's all compressions now, right? No more breathing in the mouth at all. So you can stop faking passing out to get the life started and make out with it. Hey, check this out. There's a company we work with called OliPop. They make these drinks. They're like sodas except they're extremely low in calories like 30, 35 calories per can. And they are good for gut health. Those are your gut health sodas. They taste amazing.   Tastes amazing, low calorie, good for your gut, all natural. I recommend getting the variety pack so you can try them all out. See which one you like. And now you've got yourself a tasty low calorie drink that's healthy for your gut. So go check them out. Head over to drinkolipop.com. That's D-d-d-r-n-k-o-l-i-p-o-p.com forward slash mine pump and you'll get 20% off plus free shipping. All right, here comes the rest of the show. First question is from Holly Wakelin. What are some common meals that are great for the family and hit all the healthy macros? Oh, that's a good question because, okay, let's paint the context here. You're cooking for your family. It's gotta be healthy. It's gotta be somewhat palatable because you got kids so you ain't gonna make some food that the kids aren't gonna wanna eat. And it's gotta be somewhat easy because who wants to spend two hours in the kitchen? So let's think of that scenario. I actually don't. All I have is rice, meat, and veggies. That's all I got.  I mean, why not? But you know what? They go so far though. In exchange, almost any meat in there. I mean, you could do so many different... Like we rotate from veal, bison, turkey, chicken, fish, beef, and even some pork, right? But not as much pork. I would say... You guys do lamb? Occasionally. Occasionally? Yeah, occasionally we do lamb. I'd say that... I mean, that's an eight rotation of meat and then it's getting paired with either rice, sweet potato, or yams. And then our probably go-to greens that are always either spinach, asparagus, Brussels sprouts. Yeah, Brussels sprouts. You know, we do, we do bowls sometimes. So we'll actually make bowls like that where you've got the ground meat, you've got the ground beef.  Yeah, exactly. Ground beef. You can do skewers in the way we change it up sometimes, but like pretty much the same, like sort of rotational things. So this is really easy, right? You could get the variety mixed veggies that are frozen. By the way, frozen veggies, totally fine. In fact, some cases higher in nutrients because they freeze them with peak nutrient. They last a long time, they're cheap. So you get those kind of mixed veggies. You put that with rice and ground beef. You could throw a little bit of avocado on there or what's it called, the avocado dip. I can't remember. I don't know why I can't think right now. Guacamole. Guacamole on there. And you have like these bowls. And the kids love it because it can, and if you want to make it even more fun, we've done that where we've made bowls and then gotten chips, corn chips. So the kids can, if they want to add corn chips to it I mean, we build our dinners around the meat, right? So whatever's defrosted, then we have ready, whether that be the chicken thighs or the ground beef or the veal or any of those things. And then, you know, see, and I think season it up.  We use a lot of Montreal that's like a go-to like seasoning that we use. Oh, that's the Montreal seasoning. Yeah, I mean, it goes so well with so many different things. You know what else is pretty good that's actually quite easy is roasting a whole chicken with potatoes and carrots. And you put it all in the same glass container. We buy, that's a staple, easy, fast go-to meal. Katrina always has a whole chicken in there when you grab from Safeway or Costco, the whole chickens. She buys that and then just tears off of that. Yes, the easiest way. Yeah, she makes it into salad. She makes it into burrito stuff. She makes it into like burrito bowl type stuff. She makes the chicken taco salad out of it. So that's super easy. Part of the family stuff that I found success in is making it somewhat fun for the kids. So like you could do like a taco night and you could choose regular taco shells or you could get the grain-free ones that they now have that are actually pretty good. You could use cassava flour or whatever. Yeah, you could use cassava flour or you could use corn or stuff. And what we'll do is we'll have the stations out and they'll include a vegetable, they'll include obviously a meat and maybe a starch, like a rice and maybe some cheese or whatever. And then the kids can go make their own and they tend because it's fun for the kids to make their own food. They tend to include everything and eat. You know, the parents I feel for is somebody who is recently on their health and fitness journey and they already have kids that are like 10, you know. And kids don't get it. Well, yeah. Why are we eating different now? Yeah, that's what's real. So if you have a family that you've raised, like I don't foresee Max ever having like a problem eating. He's been eating our food since he was born.  He hasn't been introduced to a lot of these different foods. And so I don't think it's and he eats everything that we eat. So I don't see why it'll be that much of a challenge. Where I think it's challenging is if you raise kids on McDonald's and pizza and fast foods. Yeah, they develop a palate. Yes.  You know, we're having chicken thighs and rice for dinner.  What's up with that? Like, so, but I mean, You always have a soda, you know. Yeah, I think that's why we get questions like this. Cause I think that's where it becomes challenging is when you are trying to make an easy go to but also taste good meal for kids. And you think like there's this like secret hack that one of us might have that's going to give you this recipe that kids are going to love.  And then all of a sudden you want it. It's the same ingredients, just like repurposed, mixed around, you know, so it's kind of a different experience. I feel like Mexican food is the best for that. It's burrito. No, it's an enchilada. No, it's tacos. No, it's a salad. And it's always delicious. The same stuff. And it's always amazing. Yeah, I think if you centered around the meat, I think that's very smart. Cause you have your essentials there already, right? You have your essential nutrients, both macro and micro. So if the family eats the meat, they're going to get the fats, the proteins, which are essential, plus all the healthy nutrients that meat has in high concentrations. Then you can add a vegetable. Frozen vegetables, very easy. It's not, I say frozen because they last long. There's a big problem. A lot of people, I do this. If I buy fresh vegetables, I end up throwing away at least a quarter of them. You get eaten right away. You get eaten, but if it's frozen, I can take it out of the freezer. And frozen vegetables are totally fine. Totally healthy. Or you find yourself having to go to a grocery store two, three times a week. Yes. And then rice and potatoes are very easy. And even french fries, there are companies that make french fries that are frozen in a bag. And you look at the oils they make them in, they're not bad. And they're super easy. So if you have kids that are picky, oh God, what am I going to give them? They don't want to eat them. They make these, I don't remember the brand, but I buy some of them. And they're really easy. You put them in a pan, you put them in the oven, throw some salt in it. Air fryer, air fryer. I want to say great for that. Total, we do a lot of air fryer. A lot of instapot stuff too. We do a ton of stuff in the instapot. Yeah, yeah, totally. But yeah, that's, I mean, that's what I do. I always think meat first, what's the starch that we'll throw in? Typically it's rice or potato usually. And then what's the vegetable? And that's it. And like you said, Justin, mix and match them and make them kind of simple. And what Jessica does, that's really good is she'll prep the food in the day. When she has 10 to 15 minutes. So if we're gonna have like a roasted chicken, it'll already have the butter and the seasoning on it and the sliced lemon and stuff. And then it's just ready to go. And then we just put it in the oven later on when it's time for dinner. I've also, and this is probably more recent than not.  Like, cause you, your point about your meat, you're hitting so many of your macro and micronutrients just from that big old steak and then adding some green with there. Like there's this idea that we always have to have this big carb. Like meals are always built around these massive carbs. You're the one that showed me the easiest to sneak in there. You're the one that showed me the fruit dessert that is a great way.  You throw a coconut whip on there and kids, my kids freak out. They think it's the best thing in the world. It's just, it's basically just fruit. Next question is from Samantha Lindsey 1. Where do you guys turn to for programming ideas and to gain more knowledge regarding training? Oh, I will tell you right now. Not much now. Yeah. Not anymore, but if you're a trainer or even if you're the average person, you wanna figure out programming knowledge. I think obviously our show, I'll say our show is a great place, but if you're a trainer and you wanna really take it to the next level, the competitive strength sports in my experience have the best information because not because they're weight lifting is superior than, you know, than other forms of lifting, whatever, rather because they're competitive, you have, the proof has to be in the pudding. So they place a lot of emphasis on the programming. Like you see a lot of science in the programming behind the lift. That's just it. They have a lot of science backed stuff. I actually don't think that's what makes our programming so special. I think what makes us unique is that we have read all the same science that some of the best, you know, programmers out there, as far as like sports performance, I would say, I would agree with you. But what makes what we do so special is the decades of experience of training normal people. Of course. That we take in account the behavioral aspect of it and trying to get people to do something long-term. And so there's times when- That actually works. That's right. There's certain things that will program that will go like, okay, like this would be the most ideal thing, but the reality is a large portion of people won't do that or they'll not be able to do that and they'll have to regress out of that exercise. So what's a good supplement for that? And so that's the type of stuff that I think that we do that special in comparison to like somebody who write. Cause I mean, we're all really good trainers that write really good programs. They're all reading the same studies. They're all reading it as far as periodization and understanding exercise order. And I mean, that's all pretty basic stuff. The stuff that I think is the secret sauce to how we write stuff is we are going, I think we all, when we get in a room and we sit down and say, this is going to be the adaptation, right? This is the thing of the avatar we're trying to build this program for. We start throwing out all the movements and exercises and stuff that we want in there. And then we're all, I can see everyone's brain turning of like all the hundred plus clients that you train that fit that category and thinking of all the challenges. Like, oh yeah, I remember like so many of my clients they struggled when we did this. And so this always helped those people. And then like the other guys will chime in and do the same thing. And that's not reading somebody else's studies or that's not reading somebody else's programs and then stealing from them and going, oh, this is so-and-so does this so well. It's like, we're all, we all read the same studies that break down like how to program. Well, it's the experience that I think is it. Well, I think in terms of just ideas, I think we all have different interests and like what kind of like led our careers individually. And so I think we get inspired by certain people that we know in the industry that we may follow, we may see a post, we may see something Instagram or whatever that may spark something and then like kind of dive deep into that. Like a Lane Norton post or for instance, or something like that where, or it's a bodybuilder or something in that direction where they're like, oh, I haven't done that style of training in a really long time and I haven't incorporated that and then we'll experiment or something. For me, it's like, it's typically like unconventional type of lifts and like people I've seen like, be able to tackle that as well as like physical therapists and people trying to add in ways of other techniques in terms of applying therapy and mobility practice for joints and function of that. And then also sports performance just because yes, it doesn't apply to your everyday average person but sometimes there's gems in there like for pain and certain specific limitations and range of motion for shoulder, for hips, whatever it is. And then I'm gonna peer into that and just dive deep and like, wow, I really like that exercise. I'm like banking all this stuff to then later on, it's like, oh wow, this may make sense when we're all collectively trying to figure out what adaptation, what avatar we're creating through this. To me, the best example of what you're explaining right now is our RGB bundle. When you think about the way RED, Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance and Maps Aesthetic came to be, it's all three of our kind of passions of what we are really into. Like Sal for sure is, he talks all the time about strength, right? That's like, and so Maps Anabolic are the core principles around building a solid strength program for the, and for building a metabolism for, muscle building focus. And with the most minimal amount of work and you get the, that is the most effective way to train, that's what that is. Performance is your baby. Performance is literally the things that you've been passionate about, the things that you brought to the table that I think that you went down the rabbit hole of enjoying and applying and using. And so a lot of that was, a lot of what we adopted for that program came from the things that you were passionate in reading. And then when you think of aesthetic, aesthetic is very much so mirrors the way I train my body, getting ready to compete. So it's very aesthetic focus, right? Building the physique. And so, and then all the rest of them is a blend of our experience, the stuff that we've read. I mean, we've brought people in, right? Obviously when we did Strong, we brought Robert Oberson, when we did Power Lift, we brought Ben Pollock in. So we took our expertise. A million boon for OCR. Yeah, a million boon with OCR. So we took experts in those fields that that's all they live and breathe is that space. And we combined it with our experience and knowledge of training regular people. And we thought, okay, how do we extract what we know from these guys and girls that is best for their sport? But then we take our practicality of knowing normal people. And like how do we give, and that's the blend. I can tell you the breakthroughs that I had in my understanding of programming. I can really break it down for you. Like I remember like what, initially my knowledge came from bodybuilders and what I learned from them were angles and the pump and how to feel individual muscles. Then I remember learning from power lifters. What I learned from power lifters while stressing the movement and biomechanics and efficiency. And that's when I learned about techniques like progressing the resistance with chains and bands. I remember reading Soviet studies about weight lifters, right? Olympic weight lifters, what I learned from them. Frequency and practice, and all day practice of certain lifts. I learned from a book called Dinosaur Training. I learned from a book called Heavy Duty. All these things influenced me very strongly. I worked with a physical therapist where I learned a ton from watching her work with therapy with the, and then the experience like you're saying Adam of, okay, what, okay, this is great. This information's awesome. Does it really, is someone gonna really do this? Are they gonna follow through? Are they gonna feel when they do it? Like I could, for example, swimming at 4 a.m. in a cold frigid lake might be the most effective fat burning thing you could possibly do, but I know no one's gonna do it, so I'll never promote it because you gotta wake up at 4 a.m. and go swim in a cold lake type of deal. So I think that there's, I mean, really the key is, especially if you're a trainer, is to stand on the shoulders of giants and to not close yourself off. Here's the one thing that I'll tell you that'll drive a trainer in the right direction or a fitness enthusiast in the right direction. Don't get stuck in a camp. Don't be the bodybuilder that thinks they can't get any value out of gymnastics or weightlifting or kettlebell training or endurance training. Like there's pieces in all of these things that you can learn from and you wanna be the big mixed martial artist. You wanna be the one that understands that, okay, there's value in all these things. What can I learn from them? And that's, I mean, that's what happens after years and years. To that point, I would recommend people or trainers specifically, looking for experts in very specific niche areas that you can learn from and then taking from all of them. Totally. Like one of the things that I always get annoyed about that we get, we always get people that like, and I won't roll anybody on the bus as far as names because this isn't, I'm not saying this is a slide. It's more like people just don't get it, right?   Or what do you think? And then they want to compare like their programming with that. It's like, listen, the kid has got good stuff. Like he's, all the studies that he's referencing that he's done it, we've read all those same studies. But the reason why I think it's silly is because it's like, we've already taken all that information. We're also taking from all these other brilliant experts and we've combined all that to come to this place where we're currently at. So when you introduce me to somebody who's like, especially a young kid. Yeah, so I mean, 28 years old, and it's like, and they're smart. They read all the studies and they understand the science really well and they've put out good content.  I mean, and there's nothing that we're gonna get from that kid to give to you guys that we haven't already distilled in the conversation that we have on this podcast. And so I think when, and then when I shut people down, I think they take it like a, it's a slide at that kid who doesn't, who are like, oh, or I think we're better than this. No, it's not that. It's that I know where that person is at in their career. They're at a place where they're reading the science like crazy and they really understand how to write programming. That's awesome. But we've not only done all that, but we've gone deep on the kettlebell side, deep on the unconventional side, deep on the strong, on the powerlifting, on the mobility side. We've gone deep and found the experts in all of those areas and we've studied those people. And then we've taken from all of them and then we've also taken from our own personal experience of training for decades. Just working with the regular people. Yeah, to blend it all. And it's something we're not as familiar with. We bring those experts on. Those I love. So when someone gives me a recommendation, let's give an example, Aldoah.  So when someone's like, and introduced me into a something like that, I'm very intrigued by that person. I'm not intrigued by some YouTube kid who's really good trainer. But this doesn't intrigue me. Yeah, like keep going. Like we'll apply, do you keep going? Yeah, right. Good job. But it's not something that like I bring on the show and think like, oh, this person can add lots of value to our audience. But introducing something like Aldoah, I think that is incredible. And I'm learning from that. Kettlebell's not that long ago, less than a decade ago was really uncharted territory for me. Not that long ago, bringing somebody like a Dr. Brink or a Kelly Starrett or someone like that. That's a mobility expert. Like that to me is stuff that I like to introduce our audience to. Or that's the stuff that I would say that we are constantly pulling from or trying to learn from. There's just not a lot left out there that we haven't explored and taken something from it to build into our programming. Next question is from Tazee Kloppers. How can you beat the midday slump when bulking? Oh, that's a tough one. That happened to me. That happens to me when I bump my calories. Here's what I found that helps me. If I can control the blood sugar crash from eating a lot of carbohydrates, I feel okay. So what I've noticed for myself, and I've noticed with other people as well that I've worked with, that when they're doing their bulk, if they go real carb heavy early on, they'll get this crash later on the afternoon. There's a couple of ways that I've worked around it. One is increase in my calories, not completely avoiding carbs. I think that's really tough to bulk with, but rather making more of a focus on proteins and fats. They don't tend to do that with me. So I'll eat more of the carbs later in the evening because then I'm gonna go to bed anyway, so it's not that big of a deal.  And we now have CGM research that shows that that does help with that blood sugar crash. So that's what happens with a lot of people with the blood, with the slump, is they get the rise in blood sugar, then the insulin goes up to get that out of the blood, then you get that crash and you get irritable and sleepy and tired. So we're invested in a company called Nutrosense, and this is an area where I see tremendous value, especially for a question like this, because there's such an individual variance. Totally. And maybe it's not the carbs you think it is. Maybe it's the avocado, or maybe it's the banana. Like you don't know what it is that could be causing that spike that you're talking about. And I think there's tremendous value, even if you're somebody who's not borderline diabetic, but using a tool like this to get an idea of how these different foods are affecting you. And I think it'll open your eyes a lot. And I mean, it did me. I mean, I'd share with you guys the whole taco thing versus the like two bites of a cinnamon roll difference. It was like wild to me how my body responded differently to those two foods. So I think you wearing something like that to get an idea. And so then if you're trying to avoid that, you realize like, oh wow, every time I eat these types of foods, this is how my midday feels. If I switch that meal to this type of meal, it really powers me through my midday and I feel fine. I think that's very valuable information for somebody. Even though that might not make the difference of you building 15 pounds, I can't sell it to you that way or losing 10 pounds of fat, it's that having that insight on how those foods affect you and make you feel through your day, I mean, that can have long-term effects. It has huge effects on behaviors, which obviously will affect your success. Here's a couple also areas that you might not look. One is sleep quality. Now here's why I'm bringing that up. When bulking, especially for men, okay? This can be true for women as well, but especially for men, even if your bulk is lean, sleep quality can decrease because of the increase in snoring and sleep apnea, okay? So I experienced this myself. I'm lean, I know I'm probably single-digit body fat at the most, I'm maybe 10% body fat right now, but because I'm carrying about 15 pounds more muscle than I was before, I snore now. My sleep quality isn't the same and it has to do with the musculature of the neck and all that kind of stuff. So pay attention to that. So if you're bulking and you're noticing, man, I'm just more tired throughout the day, it may be that your sleep quality isn't as good and it doesn't mean you wake up throughout the night. It could literally mean, ask your partner, like, hey, am I snoring more when I go to sleep? And then the other one is your caffeine intake. We just talked about this earlier in the podcast. Yeah, go ahead. No, yeah, that's the big one I noticed, you know, if I can manipulate that based off of like, if that's too high and then I have like two, in terms of like the amount of calories per meal, like if I'm trying to do like this huge meal, sometimes, you know, if I can spread that out a little bit more throughout the day and like maybe make more meals out of it instead of like these huge meals, that then I feel this inevitable, you know, sort of a bonk that I might have midday between caffeine and the big meals for me, that's all. Dude, I'm so glad you said that, I totally forgot about that, that's 100% true. If I go, if I did three big meals versus six small meals, I'll get more of a crash with the big meals.   I'm so glad you said that. You should try that as well with your bulking is maybe give yourself more but smaller, more frequent meals and see how that would read your energy. Next question is from Bad Secchi. What are your thoughts on MK677? Is it good or bad depending on your body type? Is that like a AK47? No, I was thinking MKUltra, that's a lot of minuses. No, this is Abita Moran. It's another name for the peptide. Oh, okay. Okay, so this is interesting. So if you had asked me this question a couple of years ago, I would have not had very much information. But now we work with a company. You can go to mphormones.com in fact, and you can get an assessment from their staff there and work with a doctor. And they do hormone therapy, hormone replacement and they work with peptides. Okay, so this is a peptide. So before I get into what it is, I do wanna say this, peptides are like drugs in the sense that they're not innocuous supplements that you take and oh, try it out and see if it works. It's like an herb. They have real effects in the body, okay? And so I do not think it's a good idea to take any peptides without first getting evaluated by a trained doctor and also getting monitored because they do have distinct effects on the body. And this means that for some people, it's gonna be great. And for other people, it's not gonna be good at all. Okay, so let's talk about Ibute Morin. So I've been on this now on and off. I've cycled on and off it now for maybe a few times, maybe three times. And I find it very interesting. Now I've experimented with some of the other peptides because again, we work with some doctors and now I have access and I have monitoring. So I can literally say, hey, let me try this. They'll look at my blood work and say, okay, I think this may be a good idea to try. Then I'll be on it and they'll test me in a month and be like, oh, here's what's happening. Not good, good. Plus I base it off of how I feel a lot of stuff. So Ibute Morin is known as a secretogog. It's a growth hormone releaser. So it's a ghrelin, the hormone ghrelin, mimic. Meaning it's not ghrelin, but it attaches to the ghrelin receptor. So does it manipulate the appetite at all? Well, I'm gonna get to that. Because it mimics ghrelin, it sends a signal to the pituitary to pump out more growth hormone. And it's very effective. Literally, you test your growth hormone on Ibute Morin. It's almost like taking one and a half to two IUs of growth hormone a day. So people who aren't familiar, if you were to go on growth hormone therapy, let's say you went to one of these labs- A.G. clinics or whatever. Yeah, anti-A.G clinics. They put you on three IUs a day. They would put you on, they put you on around one or two actually. Three is actually kind of high. Oh, really? Yeah, bodybuilders will go higher, even higher, right? But two, one to two is therapeutic dose of growth hormone. Well, Ibute Morin will make your body produce about that much. And the IGF-1, insulin-like growth factor, even higher than what you may get from growth hormone. Now, what does this do for the body? Well, more growth hormone means you're gonna build repair faster. You're gonna have better tendon repair, muscle growth. Your sleep is gonna be, typically people experience better sleep. Your skin is nicer. Your hair grows faster. Your nails grow faster. So like all these things that are associated with growth hormone, you get from taking it, it's oral. So you don't have to inject anything. It's literally a pill. You take it at night. What are the side effects, the negatives? Well, first let's talk about the people who probably don't wanna mess with this. If you raise growth hormone, either by taking growth hormone by taking ibudomorin or MK677, if you have blood sugar control issues, not a good idea. Growth hormone goes up, insulin becomes less effective. So if you have like genetics for potential for diabetes or you're not very healthy, your blood sugar is hard to control or it's kind of high, this will make it not a good thing. This is why you need to get tested because if you don't know this about yourself, you could accelerate like- Is that a temporary effect? Or is it long after, even afterwards? Temporary, but if you go on it long enough and you keep growth hormone high long enough, you could cause yourself some issues if you have issues with blood sugar and stuff. This is why, there's one of the reasons why it's important to monitor, okay? Side effects, because it's a growing mimic, my appetite goes up. Okay, so I do get hungrier when I take it. So I know growth hormone burns more body fat, which is true.  Well, good for bulking though. Yeah, as you said, bulking. Very much. You also will hold a little bit of water in the muscles. So the pumps that I get are really intense and I do gain intracellular like water in my muscle and for me, it's more of a bulking agent. So when I take it, I can pretty reliably gain five to six pounds on the scale. I'm stronger. I get really vivid dreams. I sleep really hard. My skin, I start to notice is, you know, kind of looks a little younger. Jessica will notice that kind of stuff. I also noticed though with the CGM that my blood sugar comes up a little higher. Now, because I have good blood sugar and I'm healthy, it's not a big deal, but I do notice. Oh, interesting. A little bit of that effect. Oh. Yeah, I'll look at my numbers and I'll see like, oh, it's training a little higher than normal. So if I were somebody that were like borderline, blood sugars, I wouldn't take, I wouldn't take growth hormone nor would I take Ibutamorin. But it's interesting. It's fast. So it doesn't attach to the androgen receptor. It doesn't cause down regulation of, you know, make your body produce less of its own hormones or anything like that. There's studies on it that, you know, and the reason why it exists in the first place is that pharmaceutical companies were looking for a way to treat children with pituitary deficiencies without having to give them growth hormone. And it seems to have a lot of promise there. What makes something a peptide and what makes something a SARM? And why is a peptide so much safer than a SARM? It's not safer. It's just different. Although in this case, I would say it is from what I've read, but SARM stands for selective androgen receptor modulator. So the androgen receptor is what testosterone attaches to. So a SARM is a drug that's not testosterone but still attaches to the receptor and it tricks your body into thinking it has more androgens. This does not interact with the androgen receptor. It attaches to the ghrelin receptor, okay? So I don't know what the term would be for that, but now peptide is a word that means a chain of amino acids, which so basically a peptide is a very general term that can mean a lot of different things. But this affects growth hormone. It has nothing to do with testosterone. It has nothing to do with, you know, those anabolic hormone. Does it make it any more or less risky than SARMs in? I would not go on a SARM because if I want to have more androgens, I would go with testosterone, which I already make. We know what it does. We know what it doesn't do. It's very safe, so long as you don't go crazy, right? So like if you take it and get your testosterone up to good high normal levels, it'll improve your health versus if they were low. SARMs are, they're trying to do the job of testosterone and what they're trying to do is make it side effect free, but they haven't been around long enough. They don't have the history.  The only application I could see with SARMs in the future would be where you would want maybe to give a woman more of the androgen effect without the masculinizing effects of testosterone.  It's a hormone she already makes. But something like this, fascinating, because if you wanna raise your growth hormone, you have to take growth hormone. This is not taking growth hormone. This is telling your body to make its own growth hormone even more. It's really interesting. Peptides, because I know that SARMs are kind of in that gray market classification, right? So it's like, you can technically get them on the internet, but it's like through veterinary sources or whatever that works is how does it work for peptides? Same. Yeah, so you could go online right now and buy Ibutomorin, or MK677. I don't recommend it. I think it's a bad idea, especially because you don't know. You're not doctor supervising. No, that's so dumb to me. I think that's such a bad approach. I think if you wanna go with peptides, you could go and we've done the work here. So there's lots of places that tried to get us to work with them, we picked the ones that we thought were the best. Again, you can go to mphormones.com and if you get on with some of them, they'll do the whole lab work up. And then there's more than just this, right? There's BPC157, which accelerates wound healing. I felt a different feeling, yeah. Yeah, it's got some effects on the gut that seem to be very interesting and positive. There's another peptide, I can't remember the name of it, that is a Milano, I can't think of the chemical term, but it was designed to help people tan without sun. One of the side effects being increased libido, especially in post-menopausal women. Tan and horny. So as a libido enhancer, it's got some interesting effects. There's a lot of these category of things that you could take that I think you would be, it'd be very wise to work with a professional who monitors you and then you could derive some very interesting, cool benefits. If you don't, it would be literally like going to the pharmacy and buying a bunch of pharmaceuticals and then being like, I think I'm okay. I think I feel this, I think I don't like, you're messing with your health here. Just guesstimating it. Yeah, I wouldn't raise, I would not take anything that affected my growth hormone that much if I couldn't also watch my blood work and everything else to make sure that was doing pretty well. Like I said, I've tried it a few times. It's an effective bulker, bulk and strength, I notice right away from taking it. Even with those effects, I still, I only go on it for 30, 60 days and I typically go off 30, 60 days. I don't think it's necessary to do that, but I just do because I think that's wise when you're taking anything. Look, if you like our information, head over to mindpumpfree.com and check out our guides. We have guides that can help you with almost any health or fitness goal. You can also find all of us on social media. So Justin is on Instagram at Mind Pump. Justin, Adam is on Instagram at Mind Pump Adam and you can find me on Twitter at Mind Pump Sal. This one's really important and that is to phase your training. If somebody trains for a full year doing a bench press and they're always aiming for five reps, if you compared that person to a person who did bench press where they did three or four weeks of five reps, but then they did three or four weeks of 12 reps and then three or four weeks of, let's say, 15 to 20 reps and then they'll throw in some supersets, at the end of that year, you're gonna see more consistent progress from the person who's moving in and out. And less injury.