Please let me welcome you on behalf of the organizers, C4, but also on behalf of the organizer of this side event, FAO, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. My name is Bruno Camard. I work for FAO in Bangkok. I work for the Forest Law Enforcing Governance and Trade Program, covering Asia and the Pacific. I will be your sessions moderator today. Today's topic or the topic of this discussion forum is Equitable Development, Sustainable Landscape, Green Growth and Poverty Reduction. In this session we will try to address a number of key questions. The first question is what does forest management have to offer in the context of green growth and how does or should this new growth principle influence current forest practices and investments in the sector. The second question we will try to address today is what is needed to make forest management practices or investments greener and more beneficial to people. So what are the incentive frameworks to encourage this greener forestry and greener forest investments? The third question will be what will be the roles of the ASEAN forests, forests of the region and its landscapes in this greener, equitable and inclusive growth. The structure of this session is relatively simple. I guess it's very similar to other sessions today. We will start with a number of presentations followed by Q&A or discussions and we will then have a summary of the discussions and the key points that we would like to transmit to the organizers as our contribution to the overall objective of this event. Let me introduce briefly to the four speakers today. The first speaker is Dr. Yordi Yasmi, my colleague from FAO in Bangkok. He's a forestry policy officer and like me covers the region, Asia and the Pacific. The second speaker is Ms. Aida Greenberry, managing director of sustainability and stakeholder engagement at Asia, PELP and PAPA. The third speaker Dr. Hadi Susanto Pasaribu, the executive director of AFOKO or the ASEAN Forest Corporation. The fourth and last speaker is Mr. Adam Grant, who is the manager for investments and operations at the new forest investment Asia. Our discussant or person who is going to summarize this session is Dr. Doris Capistrano, senior advisor of the SDC, ASEAN, Swiss partnership on social forestry and climate change. As I said earlier, she will summarize our discussions and key points and especially try and summarize what is new, what comes out of this discussion as something that is new. She will summarize our inputs in terms of policy development and research gaps, which is one of the objectives of this overall event and also she will try and summarize what should be done next or our next steps. And last but not least, we will have a number of reporters on the right or your left hand side, including Mr. Aaron Russell from C4. Thank you. So let me start with introducing the first speaker, Mr. Yudi Yasmi from FAO Bangkok. Thank you very much Bruno, a very good afternoon to all of you. It is really a great pleasure for me to be here today with you to make a brief presentation on towards greener forestry sectors, what's really new. I might need your help in answering this question. In this talk, I will touch upon three things. First, I will outline the green economy in brief, where the concept comes from, and then I will also mention a few options of green investment in forestry. And then I will share a few experience from FAO related to green economy. So why are we pursuing green economy? I think this is a fundamental question. As we all know, societal progress is multidimensional, and it encompasses economic, sociocultural and environmental aspects. However, in measuring progress, we tend to focus on limited economic indicators with inclusive growth, sometimes getting lip service. Many societal collapses and crisis recorded in history has been attributed to unbalanced social progress, neglecting social and environmental aspects. Resources are viewed as engine for growth, and we have pushed our resources beyond their ecological limit. We are still losing our forests about 13 million hectares per year. Biodiversity has declined 30% since 1970s, and demand on natural resources has doubled since 1960. And now we are actually using an equivalent of 1.5 of our planet to support our activities. So how do we sustain this? This is a big question. And climate change comes on top of all of these challenges, and perhaps one of the biggest challenges that our society faces nowadays. Given this background, world leaders at Rio Plus 20 committed to green economy as a vehicle or approach to achieve sustainable development. In short, green economy is a system which results in improved human well-being and improves social equity while protecting natural resources and reduce risk and ecological scarcities. In essence, it is low carbon, resource efficient and social inclusive. So the concept of green economy itself supports the very philosophy of people-centric sustainable development. In the context of green economy, forestry has to be viewed broadly, taking into account all aspects, economic, social and environmental aspects. Perhaps this is nothing new to all of us, particularly to foresters, because the very essence of sustainable forest management encompasses all these aspects. What is probably new is how can we put sustainable forest management into real practice with concrete action supported by political will. Green economy also presents an opportunity for forestry sectors to counter negative images and perceptions that are inherent in forestry sectors. For example, recurrent forest fires has actually devastated large tracts of tropical forest. Timber traits are often associated with illegal activities and loss of revenue on government sites. There are a lot of conflicts associated with forestry sectors. So in order to counter these things, I think green economy offers an opportunity for forestry sector by uncovering the greener side of forestry. Here I will mention a few options that are available for green investment. I'm pretty sure my colleagues here will have more examples. First of all, we have no other option than sustaining natural assets that we have. We cannot destroy this asset feathers. This means that we have to promote sustainable practices and we have a few examples already existing. For example, reduced impact logging, forest certification, development of conservation and biodiversity reserve, sustainable ecotourism, et cetera, et cetera. Second, I think there is also a huge opportunity to expand our natural assets. This means that we can actually build our natural asset back through reforestation, afforestation and also agroforestry. There is about 400 million hectares in Asia that is ready to be restored. This degraded land actually presents a huge opportunity for forestry sector to regrow their trees on the landscape. Green jobs in the forestry sector is largely unexplored. As we all know, forestry jobs have many comparative advantages compared to other sectors because it requires low investment and it is often very flexible and adaptable to different situations. I think we have to pursue this. Now I will give two brief examples of FAO works related to green economy. First is what we call assisted natural regeneration, a project that FAO has promoted for at least two decades in the region. ANR is actually a forest restoration approach by actually supporting the natural succession of regeneration. Our experience in the Philippines, for example, suggests that ANR is 50% less expensive compared to conventional regeneration. ANR could bring back forest vegetation to the landscape with proper management and planning. The success of ANR also lies in the ability to control fire. In the Philippines, working with the barangay, the lowest level administrative in the Philippines, 90% of the barangay has been able to control fires. This is important because in the Philippines, government put a lot of millions of dollars for forest rehabilitation only for them to be destroyed by fire subsequently. So the success of this ANR in the Philippines relies on the ownership of the process where people see this as part of their livelihood. Also, they have incentive in restoring landscape because they benefit from it. It was also the case that in the Philippines, we could find champions and good leadership to support this process. The second project we had in Nepal was Leasehole Forestry where poor households were given leases for extended period of 40 years. Communities were handed over bare land or degraded land where they can actually restore to support their livelihood and also to improve their incomes. Experience shows that after six years, ground cover increased from 30% to 90%. Communities started to get income from what they planted on the landscape and half of these income earners are actually women. It's also evident that time needed to collect fodder and mostly done by women has been cut by two and a half hours per day. This is a huge time investment by rural women and we can cut this time by having more grasses around the villages and fodders around the villages. I think this is a substantial amount to reduce their time to do this task. So clearly these two experience that we have show that we can actually achieve economic, social and environmental objective at the same time if we do it right. A few things that I would like to leave you behind and to discuss is that in my view forestry has a lot to offer in terms of green economy, especially with the renewed interest in forestry given the climate change issues that we are facing at the moment and the role of forest in climate mitigation and adaptation. The essence of green economy in forestry sector is nothing new. It is back to basics. Let's implement sustainable forest management and explore new ways opportunities such as green job. We have also to change the way we look at our natural capital like forest. It is not a capital that is free. It is a capital that we borrow from our future generation. And finally I would like to mention that if we are serious about green economy we need supportive regulatory framework without this I think we fail, we are doomed to fail for the second time. Thank you very much. Thank you Yordi for reminding us of FAO's long term work in the region which illustrates that some of the solutions have been around for some time and maybe need renewed interest in investment. Can I just call on the second presenter Miss Greenbury from ABP. Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is Ida Greenbury. I'm a managing director of sustainability of Asia pulp in paper group. My job in my company is basically to engage with stakeholders to develop a long term sustainable strategy for our business. For anyone who does not know who Asia pulp in paper is we are one of the largest integrated pulp wood pulp in paper producer in the world with close to 20 million tons of products of combined capacity per annum and also we market our products in over 120 countries worldwide. I would like to begin by focusing on a question posed by the organizers in defining this afternoon's forum. Is it possible to execute forest management that supports both green growth and poverty reduction? And all of us in this room I'm sure agree that our planet to survive the answer must be a resounding yes it's possible. Obviously we will spend the next hour or so discussing it the answer to this question but please allow me to first share my experience as a business practitioner on my company's journey to implement sustainable forest management that addresses both our need to grow as a business while contributing to Indonesia's development and the reduction of poverty. A sustainable business is one that survives. Sustainable business must be the new business of business as usual. For Asia pulp in paper which is forest dependent it also needs to exist in a sustainable community and sustainable environment. The support of local communities is important for our operations. APP as well as our suppliers we operate in many of Indonesia's remote areas where community development need is very high. Our operations impact on the lives of thousands of communities in and around our concession areas as well as the 50,000 plus of APP employees in Indonesia alone. In many cases we provide the only source of employment and often are the largest single driver for MDGs in the area. The management of our suppliers plantation forest protection of neighboring natural forest as well as the biodiversity contained in it is also vital element in ensuring that our suppliers plantations are healthy and productive. So what is our approach? This is Asia pulp in papers approach to managing the social and environmental impact of our operations in the landscape. In February 2013 we announced our forest conservation policy. As part of the policy we are committed to zero deforestation in our supply chain. That meant the immediate succession to all natural forest conversion. We also began some of the largest and most complex higher conservation value in high carbon stock assessment in the world across 38 forest concessions in Indonesia. These assessments which are nearly complete will identify areas of higher conservation values and tropical forest containing high carbon stock, all of which we have committed to protect and where possible enhance. We also committed to the protection of forested peatland and best practice peatland management in our concessions. The implementation of free prior and informed consent are epic in our new developments and to adopt a systematic approach to identifying and resolving social conflicts in and around our suppliers concessions area. We agree to do all this through constant engagement and dialogue with our stakeholders, friends and critics alike. It's 15 months since we announced our forest conservation policy and for us forest conservation policy is not just a policy anymore, it's not just written black on white on paper, it's not just a commitment. We are implementing it and we have been implementing it for over a year. Yes, we encountered many, many challenges in the field. We encountered some grievance and also some natural forest conversion in our suppliers. It has been a very long and challenging and tiring journey. So I'm standing up here not because I want to announce to you or tell you about our commitment, but also share with you what we've done so far for the last 15 months. On top of our zero deforestation policy, we also last week announced an unprecedented commitment to conserve and restore 1 million hectares of tropical forest Indonesia. The initiative was developed with input from many, many stakeholders such as members of environmental paper network, Greenpeace and WWF, as well as the Forest Trust. We in Asia Balbank paper, we believe that land cannot be conserved or restored in isolation. It must be done on a landscape scale and a wide range of stakeholders, including the community. It must, they must be involved. We hope that by working with Indonesian and international stakeholders, our efforts will be much more effective. As an example, our immediate priority is the Burkittigabulu landscape in Jambiprofins in Sumatra. A lot of works have been done to date. We have completed an HCV or high conservation value assessment in the landscape inside our concessions and our suppliers' concessions. We found, after so many assessments, we found that the landscape contains vitally important low land rainforest in and around Burkittigabulu National Park. The area has been heavily hit by encroachment, illegal logging and poaching in recent years, and some of them as an impact from our operations in the past. ABB has three suppliers in that area operating around the Burkittigabulu National Park. These connections position Asia Balbank paper as an influential actor in the landscape to help facilitate and encourage landscape scale conservation. The other part of our conservation commitment involves free and prior informed consent implementation. So community involvement is an essential element for any conservation effort to succeed. Much of the problem facing forest conservation efforts is forest encroachment, which stems from poverty. ABP and its suppliers and other players in the landscape will have a role in providing employment and contributing to investment in the area. This investment might include financial investment, human resources and capacity building. All the assessment work we have done to identify how carbon stock, high conservation value, peat land, social conflict will all feed into the development of integrated sustainable forest management plans. These management plans, which are currently being developed, will provide the long-term roadmap for how we sustainably manage our concession operations in the context of the regional landscape. So no more individual unit anymore. It will also provide a mechanism to ensure these plans are developed with the input of local stakeholders. Our interests lie in protecting our investment and ensuring that we have long-term sustainable raw material supply. We believe this model and approach is unique as it will integrate this interest with those of local communities and the environment. But none of this will be easy, however, but we must remember that Asia Pop and Paper is just one among the many. We see a number of challenges that can only be addressed by the industry, the government and civil society working together. What are these challenges? Number one, overlapping concession licenses. This is a common problem in Indonesia and it has already threatened our moratorium on natural forest clearance. Therefore, as Mr. Frankie Vijaya, chairman of our sister company, GA, said earlier this morning, we fully support the OneMap project and we call for it to be completed sooner rather than later, with full transparency and wide stakeholder consultation process. Challenge number two, forest and peat fires. ABP has been condemning slash and burn activities. We have no burn policy since 1996. Aside from representing an economic threat to our business, fire also challenged our ability to deliver on our forest conservation policy commitment. The only real solution to the forest and peat fire problem is the implementation of truly sustainable landscape management, which includes zero deforestation, protection of forested peat and best practice in peat land management across Sumatra and beyond. Challenge number three is community rights versus zero deforestation. From our own experience over the last 15 months, we have seen how community land rights can often come into conflict with conservation goals. This is highly delicate issue, but like it or not, we have to address it if the two are to be reconciled. So what is required? We believe the following is needed. Number one, no deforestation commitment from other actors working in the landscape. Unless our peers, competitors and governments follow, then this idea will remain as an idea. Point number two, funding and investment. Funds and investment must be channeled into the right project based on transparency, clear funding protocols and public consultation. Point number three, market recognition. Customers and the market must recognize and reward green investments, unless the market show recognition for these commitments and progress in the implementation, then others will not be incentivized to follow our steps. Next point is a focus on the landscape conservation. We hope that our one million actor commitment outline earlier will pave the way for a new model for how the private sector working with multiple stakeholders can secure forest protection and sustainability of the landscape in which we operate. And how do we do this? We are optimistic that it is possible to achieve the triple bottom line. We are also realistic in that we are a player amongst many in this journey, and we need the engagement and support of many, including those sitting here today. Transparency through MRV or monitoring, reporting and verification is essential. We invite you to follow our progress through our various monitoring platforms such as the dashboard, online dashboard, the forest trust public reports, and also evaluation report currently undertaken by the Rainforest Alliance. That's all from me. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you Ms. Greenbury for illustrating these new but promising commitments and initiatives, which could become examples of private sector involvement if successful. Can I now invite our third speaker, Dr. Hadi Susanto Pasaribu from AFOCO. Thank you. Thank you Bruno. First of all, I would like to explain about the background of AFOCO. It is the Asian-Korea Forest Corporation. And then why the APOCO-PHWC? I think it's the first of all that we, what is it? Look at the, based on the FAO report that the depletion of the forest resources in Asia is mainly due to the economic development. It was the several reasons that the mining, over-exploitation, agi-cars expansion, but all of them that refer to how the Asians community using the forest as the one only resource that can be used for the economic development. According to the data that we had that data from 2000 until 2010, it was almost 0.6 million hectares per year before it was stated from the Asian forest. And then on the other hand, thank you, on the other hand that the, look at the Korea experience on the land degradation, rehabilitation. Korea has a very, have a remarkable achievement on how they effort on the forest rehabilitation. If you look at this Songbuk-dong area in 1915, and it takes almost 40 years to become a very nice landscape on the, then also growth in the GNI, and then also the growing stock from 1950s, almost from 6 cubic meters per hectare it become 220. That's a remarkable achievement for the Korean rehabilitation history. That makes the idea of Korea to propose what they call it the Asian-Korea Forest Corporation. In line with the rock-low-carbons green-growth initiative, the leader of Asian member states and the people of Korea welcome. So it was Korea proposal in Jeju in 2009, and then those the Asian forest cooperation was established at the Bali Asian Summit in 2011. I would like to take the actual summit that statement that we agreed to endeavor, the strengthening of cooperation in the context of UNFCCC, specifically on the red in developing countries, initiative enhancement of sustainable forest management, westland restoration and promotion of industrial forestry. So this is in line in the journey of toward the establishment of APOKO, a national rock agreement in forest cooperation was signed in November 2011 in Bali. The objective of APOKO is first to facilitate forest cooperation, undertake forest translating sound forest policy and proven technology into action. So the priority is will be at rehabilitation, reclamation, restoration of ecosystem, all link with the poverty alleviation. The first, the second one, they provide a platform for dialogue between Asian member states and the Republic of Korea toward the establishment of the Asian cooperation organization until now APOKO not yet become an international organization. We hope that APOKO will be international organization in 2016. So what are the contributions for the APOKO? So APOKO focus on contributing to develop activities related to rehabilitation, reclamation, restoration of degraded ecosystem, and second strengthening forestry institution and human resources development in tackling the poverty evolution. This is in line with the strategy objective of Asian socio-cultural community, blueprint particularly for promoting sustainable forest management and for responding to climate change and addressing its impact. So what are APOKO priorities contribute to support the green road in ASEAN? We do have some project implementing. It's being implemented that our approach is action oriented and country-driven focusing on degraded forest link with poverty issues. So we are depending on country proposals. There are three kind of project that we are launching now. The first we have individual project from 2011 to date. We have 16 individual project have been implemented by non-Asian member states. There are from forest restoration, climate change mitigation by diversity conservation and non-forest timber products and also capacity building. The second one we have APOKO regional project. There are two kind of regional project that we are concentrating on. The first that we are concentrating in Mekong region, which is watershed as an approach that cover Cambodia, Laos, PDR, Myanmar, Thailand and Vietnam. The second one that other Asian countries. And the third project is capacity building on improving forest resources assessment and enhancing the involvement of local communities to address the adverse impact of climate change. The third one we have APOKO landmark program. The focus on restoring degraded forest in Southeast Asia through capacity building on forest restoration and sustainable forestry. That consists of four kind of activities. First, establishment of APOKO regional education and training center that has been decided in Myanmar. And the second one, development education and training program for capacity building. There are all four Asian member states. The third, restoration of degraded forest region that will be cover Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam. And the fourth one, developing of advocating activities that will be implemented the all Asian member states. So what are the new approach and why? Actually, from my slide, we have learned in Korea what they call the Semalundong, which is new community development. Look at the slide, there are four. Look at the process of how Korean rehabilitation implemented in the field. Land preparation, it was 1950s. And then it start a new restoration initial. And the interesting one is the commitment of leadership. This slide shows how President Park directly see the activities on the field. And the last one, how these rehabilitation activities changing the landscape. So what we learned from Semalundong, which is new community improvement, is was connect cornerstone of national modernization and consider as a spiritual culture that encourage people will act this participation. This Semalundong also has been adopted by the UN as official program to eradicate poverty across under development world. So the last much slide is that what we have learned from Korea green growth activities that Korea is what believe the rabbit group of Korea is often attributed to the success of the Semalundong under the spirit of diligent self-help and cooperation. Second one, green growth need to develop into a broad social movement. It needs public support, whether mandatory or voluntary. The third one, green growth deal with fundamental change in growth paradigm is not only just a concept. Prioritizing quality of life against massive consumption of fuel is the foundation of achieve sustainable economics. Last one, that green growth require strong institutional set up through which policies that will establish a model for green growth development. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for highlighting these elements of what I would call local initiatives. This initiative of course originates from serious problems in the ASEAN forest and its forest sectors, but it also shows that there is clear government commitment in this region to tackle the problems of the forestry sector in a wider kind of context of green economy. Can I now invite our last speaker, Mr. Adam Grant from New Forest Asia. Thank you very much. Good afternoon. Thank you to C4 and FAO for inviting New Forest to come and speak at this conference. What I'd like to cover today is trying to look at what New Forest is and then look at the institutional money that's going into forestry, how that is changing rapidly at the moment and where we're probably going to see that going in the future and then what that means towards forestry globally specifically because the area we're working in here is Southeast Asia and the potential impact institutional money may have on the timber trade. I don't want to ask for lawyers. So overview of New Forest, who we are. New Forest started in 2005, so it's been going for eight years. We manage forests for institutional clients, these institutional clients in the US, in Europe and elsewhere, mainly the pension funds. Currently we have $2 billion worth of timberland under our control. That's $2 billion invested of institutional money. We have 43 employees. Our offices are in Singapore. That's where I'm based. I run a new fund called TAF and then we have the head office in Sydney. We're based in Sydney. It's an Australian company, but we also have operations and offices in San Francisco which run our mitigation banking, which I'll touch on in a slide later. That $2 billion worth of investment equates to just over 500,000 hectares of forest under our management at the moment. At the moment so far we've been generating decent returns for the institutional clients. What we think differentiates us from the other Temos, which if we're going to call ourselves a Temo because we're based down here, is that we're based in Sydney. We have the office in Singapore which gives us access to the Southeast Asian market. There's no other Temos that are operating down here, solely most are based up in Europe or in the United States with the largest forest owner in Australia and New Zealand. Our whole ethos and the way the company was created is around sustainability. Every forest, every investment we have we have to get certified. Our aim is to get FSC certified and from acquisition we have three years to actually achieve that and we engage readily and with NGO sector. We're part of the World Economic Forum Global Council, Aspen Institute and others. So we're connected in, we're talking to the civil society. We also have the institutional money and a whole ring with its sustainability. If we quickly flip onto what institutional investment, where the market is at the moment, there's growing interest in institutional investment. Here is the growth in millions of hectares. You've got the U.S. but then we can flip into the global area and institutional money is a hedge for these pension funds is becoming of more interest. We can put some figures on that. We're talking about in the U.S. and Canada about 85 billion. New Zealand is around 7 or 8 and then Brazil is the next biggest, Brazil, Uruguay and Chile and then here in Asia and over in Africa there's 8 billion invested. But if you look at, start looking at the other commodities and you've got oil palm and rubber where institutional money also sits, that's about 150 billion in this region. The interesting part of this is the markets in the U.S., in Australia and Europe, they're very mature. The opportunities for investment are drying up. They've already invested. So now the institutional money is starting to look at the emerging markets and we're seeing more money coming to Africa and we're seeing a lot more interest in Southeast Asia and that's why we have our new fund, which is recently closed out and we're based in Singapore trying to invest that money in Southeast Asia. There's a few TMOs that have worked here in the region in the past. We're actually set now in Singapore and we're concentrating wholeheartedly in trying to invest the money of TAF, which was just closed out in June last year at 170 million. So the Tropical Age of Forest Fund, TAF, is our new fund. It's 170 million closed in June. We have first and second tier countries which are interested in this region. Our first areas of operation will be Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam. We've got our first acquisition in Sabra, Malaysia and we're looking at different opportunities for acquisitions in Indonesia, Vietnam, China and Laos at the moment. We're based in Singapore and our whole agreement is environmental, social and governance factors. We are looking at Greenfield but we're also looking at established plantations. The thesis for TAF is looking at the forestry within Southeast Asia which is changing dramatically. I've only got 10 minutes to speak but we've got many, many graphs showing how forestry in Asia is changing in the past. It's been natural forest exploitation which has given low cost timber to the market. But those areas now are getting harder to use, harder to cut, the costs are getting greater. So the market is changing dramatically and very quickly to plantations, fast growing, high quality plantation management. And that's the thesis for TAF that we invest in these new areas, either Greenfield or established plantations. Looking at probably distressed plantations, improve the management, have them certified, look at new commodities within these plantations, look at carbon, look at biodiversity and in different ways we can package the plantations up, improve them. And then our exit strategy from investment acquisition to exit is about 10 years. TAF and all the other funds within New Forest are closed funds. That means we gain control and interest in any plantation, any forest that we actually acquire. And that means we do have a lot more control over what we're going to do over some other investors. That means we can get certified. The issues around some of the aspects of FSC, if you get control and interest, allows us to get certified. And it allows us lower discount rates if we're actually taking control and interest. As I said, the FS for New Forest, we have a very strong social environmental management system. This is a requirement of the institutional money. We have to get certified. We have to have a decent social environmental management system. Our limited partners, the pension funds, ordered us regularly and we have to actually meet these thresholds for responsible investment. Most of this is going also into greenhouse gas emissions, climate change. We're looking at different aspects of forest management plantations, not straight timber sales and then flipping the plantation. But we're also looking at how we can package that up into carbon biodiversity. Biodiversity, credits. This is something that we're trying. This is New Forests. We have the market in the United States for mitigation banking is a big market. Mitigation banking, if you're aware of it, if Walmart or IKEA want to put in a big retailing outlet in the United States and then they have to put it in an environmentally sensitive area then they can mitigate through a bank elsewhere being set up by different funds. This is a big part of our business in the United States is setting up mitigation banking. We've tried to bring that into Southeast Asia. In the Malawa Biobank, we've set this up in Sabah. It's been running for about six or seven years. It's been a struggle for us but this is something that New Forests has been very interested in. We set up our own fund to fund this. And with the partnership with Sabah Forestry Department, we've managed to cure 34,000 hectares of already logged over forest. We've secured that, made it class one reserve. And now we're selling the biode credits and we're looking to get the carbon onto this as well to try and lock this up, protect it to show that you can protect an area, you can mitigate but you can also make a return on those areas. And that return, a percentage of the returns go back into a trust to manage the area in perpetuity. So it's been a labour of love for us so far. We're probably a bit ahead of the curve on this so there hasn't been a lot of interest. But we're starting to see a growing interest in mitigation banking in the marketplace right now. So we're going to plug away and see if this will actually fly. My last slide is just some of the lessons learned. We've all discussed this. I've seen this discussed in different sessions already. The lessons we're seeing is for much of the work, the environmental green economy and how you can improve forest management through institutional money of the market. The first one is price signals. The European emissions trading scheme had a lot of potential because there was good price signals in the market and people are interested. And so that's why it grew quite quickly at the beginning. I'll get into what happened to it later on. The US mitigation, as I say, that's about a $3 billion market in the US right now just doing mitigation because it has good price signals. It's allowed people to actually invest in different regions and mitigate and invest back into the forest industry. Certification, we can argue whether there's a premium and what that means, but we're also seeing market access. So market access gives us a premium. If we're modeling a forest, that market access allows us to get into the European and the US markets, which probably would be a bit more difficult for us to get into, especially with FLEC-T, the VPA, European timber regulation, LACI, all of these different regulations in the market places. It's closing off markets for a lot of the product coming out of these plantations. So that allows us to get some sort of premium and model that. The financial investment sector, you saw the billions of dollars that's already in the forest industries, and the potential is greater for a lot more money and the institutional money to come in. And so the markets, through that, we can create transparency, the pricing we're seeing futures and options. Through the futures and options, we can offer to the market that offers stability. Investment funds created around the EU, EUTS and others. There was a lot of interest and funds have come in. And this is why New Forest is only eight years old, but we have $2 billion worth of land under our control already. Because there's funds out there, they're interested in investing in these areas. They see there is potential and they see it's a great, stable investment for them. It's a hedge for them on more of their other riskier investments. And getting to that stability is necessary. As you saw, the EUTS, there was no stability there. It started off, it was looking great, then the market got flooded and the industry can't really invest. They can't model what they want to do and invest on plantations. They can't invest the pay-in to offer credits back into these markets if there's no stability. And then it needs the cost more to remain outside than rather inside a scheme. Lack of meaningful price premium for voluntary certifications is hampered people's getting in. But I think the market, the way it's changing with the regulations, it's helping FSC, it's probably at PFC, for people to try and get market access. Now, even though a lot of these regulations say FSC is a requirement of the law, but it does help. It reduces your risk, so it's all about risk mitigation. And so this helps if you started to invest and look at plantations. So not to get involved in these schemes, it's a very, very difficult prospect to actually get institutional money. It's very difficult to model and it's very difficult to show growth over a long term if you're not going to do this. Red, I've touched on that, that we're doing carbon on many of the different areas where we're trying to do carbon. Red has struggled because there's been no stability at all within the red market and it's very difficult for the private sector to get involved without the stability, without showing that it's actually going to give you something in the long term to start getting involved. Once red starts looking like it'll turn a profit for the private sector, they'll get involved, but right now everyone's sitting back as everyone else is to see what happens with that. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you very much for this comprehensive presentation which shows how complex investments can be and in fact how much untapped potential there seems to be here in Asia for highly scrutinized investment funds. Now, done with our series of presentations, we have about half an hour left for discussions. Can I please invite people from the floor to ask any direct questions to our presenters or to provide any general inputs on the subjects and especially with the focus on the objectives of this event which is the identification of policy, development and research needs in the area of green growth and landscape approaches. Please. Yes. If you can just briefly introduce yourself. Thank you. Hello, my name is Jirawat. I'm from Thailand, the Thai Chamber of Associations. I'd like to address to Dr. Yerdie on the green economy. I just came back from the conference in the US on the sustainable furnishing council and they are so afraid of using wood so they decide to change from wood to aluminum and plastic because they believe it's greener. So I think because we are promoting the green economy and how we drive the whole industry to such a way that they are so scared of the wood and right now promoting the plastic and aluminum industry which is actually wrong because wood is supposed to be greenest material in the world but we didn't address that well enough that no background people will be so scared. I think wood is still the only one that can actually sustain and expand the natural resources but the other material cannot. So how can we improve this promotion? I look into the way you conclude. Still didn't address this issue so I'd like to request you to look into this. How to promote the green economy by not just focusing on one timber or one product but not addressing the other product because it signaled the wrong indication to the world somehow this could be a bet toward the green economy instead of just helping the green economy. That's how I feel. And I have one question to Mr. Adam. I like the idea on the tough and because it's a new forest and investing in a new forest is very interesting. It's the new idea that actually investment opportunities is a new idea but I wonder why not Thailand included in the diagram in the map because I think so far for the last many years Thailand has been investing on the rubberwood plantation and we become the biggest exporter of son timber of rubberwood or one single-handed product but I like to promote the diversity in Thailand because we cannot just rely on one single species. More diverse species could be very beneficial and I think the scheme like this should be a very good example for Thailand as well. So I'd like you to look into this one and let me know why Thailand is not included. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yodi? You want my mic or does another one? Thank you very much for the question Mr. Jiroat. I think green economy doesn't mean that we have to avoid using timber. In my personal view and I think it has been written widely that forest is probably among the greener sectors because all resources in forest are renewable. I think the key challenge in forest and forestry is really how can we strengthen the communication aspect of forestry. We all acknowledge that foresters are not good communication or good communicators. I think key messages have to go to be conveyed to stakeholders in such a way that the messages are taken or received in its right way. Actually using alternative to timbers might not necessarily greener than using timber. If you look at the alternative product like plastics, cements or concrete or whatever they probably would have more carbon footprint compared to timber because timber is actually if we manage sustainably actually have less carbon footprint compared to others. I think it's our collective task in actually trying to convey to the world that how can we actually strengthen sustainable forest management to support the whole concept of green economy? The countries I first pointed out were our tier one. Those were how we structured the creation of TAF with the institutional clients. These are the areas of interest for them and there were the countries we saw that probably were the lower risk if you like or the more potential for investment. And then we have a whole raft of tier two under those countries if we're not able to invest there or if we see potentially in those countries. And Thailand is one of the tier two countries. So if you've got a contact of something you want to invest in then please give me a ring and we'll go have a look at it. So I can give you the phone number later but we have a gentleman on the left. Please introduce yourself. Thank you. Thank you. I am Togumah Nurung from Bogor Agricultural University Faculty of Forestry. I'd like to address my questions and comment to Dr. Hadi Pasaribu. I'm really amazed to learn about Korean experience. Especially in rehabilitating the degraded land area in Korea back in 1950s so that we have what we just saw in the pictures that you show us. Now here in Indonesia we had such a huge area, degraded land area. The number only the Almighty God knows or maybe more than 40 million hectares altogether. So I would like really to see this happen in Indonesia. And given the fact that you're Indonesian as the Executive Director of AFO Co. it would be best or what should I say if you could really make this happen in Indonesia with this opportunity from AFO Co. And I'm sure it could be done. Thank you. Thank you very much. Actually I'm not Korean. Just learning that the one what I have seen in Korea is that it's pretty cool. Spirits of cooperation. If you look at these last 40 years the history of land rehabilitation processes in Korea it is just the commitment of leadership. So you write that in Indonesia and other countries that it needs a leadership. Of course that we cannot adopt 100% of Somalongdong new community movement from Korea and translated to other Asian countries. But what we have learned is that the spirit of cooperation leaderships and diligence that's the thing that we are trying to make this happen. One of the university in Korea Jungnam University that is a graduates program on Somalongdong. At this time there's almost 48 graduates program from all over the world. Now learn how Somalongdong is developed. And I think some countries in Africa and also in Asia have been adopted in the system. And some of them are really so successful and some of them still need to adjust because adopting the cultures is not as easy as adopting the technology. So we hope that with these the examples of changing like I said that Korean girls is not a concept. It is changing the attitude changing the fundamental ways of life. So that's very important for hours for the next future. Thank you. Hi thank you. My name is Will McFarn from the overseas development institute in London. Quite a lot of you mentioned quite broadly investment in financing. Adam was quite specific and talked about how there was a need for capital investment in plantations as you move away from a model that kind of used natural forests. And I wondered if some of the other speakers might talk a bit more about the finance and investment challenges that they have, whether that's capital expenditure operating expenditure, whether there was a need for investment in research or what the exact kind of challenge they face. I'm just interested because looking to try and kind of piece together on the ground finance and investment challenges with opportunities and finance that might be out there. Thanks. Good question. In line with the objectives of the event was the question directed to Adam? I think it was actually directed to Adam. Maybe Adam wants to kind of expand on what he said, but I wondered if the other speakers could talk about their finance and investment challenges. We have one more private sector person. Maybe you want to answer what are the challenges you're facing in your greener investments in APP? I think I clearly outlined the challenges that we have been facing to date. Majority of the challenges were actually in the social conflict, the tenure, you know, the un-clarity of the mapping. So all of this mixed into one. For the mapping we are, as I said, we are fully involved in the one-map program by the government and we're trying to support with the transparency of our supply chain and everything else so it can be mapped out properly. Regarding the social conflicts with the implementation of free and prior informed consent and the cascading social conflict resolution procedure, we try to address that as well. A capacity building model. I think those three are the top three. Does that answer your question? Sorry, I wasn't really clear about the question. Thanks. Next question. Good afternoon. I'm from Korea about the financing model for Saem-a-Londong and whether it's included exclusively by the Korean government or whether there are multiple investors and by extension if Indonesia were to adopt that model would it, would your recommendation be to incorporate private sector capital in executing a national program? What would your approach be? Thank you. I think what you asked is whether there is a community for as far as I know that Saem-a-Londong is not a, I think it's the fully people participation. So the government that only provides the seedling and access to the forest. So a community is doing that. So that's the, I'm sorry. Is that answer your question? I think it does. So no government funding on a national basis? No. This is not a project activities. This is really a mass movement of the community. So plan trees hand by hand. So if you look at this, the real movie of Saem-a-Londong is remarkable. I mean the all communities that just committed themselves go to the mountain bare lands and then bring their seedling and intensive investment by the government except for the infrastructure like housings and then roads, village roads, I mean, not the tow roads, something like that. Thank you. Yes, please, on the left. Hello. So my name is Fabriana Sugianto. I'm from the Faculty of Medicine and I have this question to Ms. Aida. So the green economy that is being implemented by APP, it requires the cooperation from the market. But all the market wants is the products with cheapest price and highest quality. And as we know, green products are tend to be more expensive compared to the normal products. And what I'd like to ask is what APP has done for the past 15 months in order to make this green economy to be successful in implementation? Thank you. In the last 15 months if I could share the most important things that we've done to ensure that it actually got implemented and was successful was just patience and never give up. Everything is possible. Changing the culture internally and also externally. Keep talking, keep explaining the same things to everybody internally and externally. Just, you know I guess like Bahati said before you know it's about leadership internally and externally. It's about changing culture and that cannot be done by anybody. So that's I think the most important thing that we've done in the last 15 months. And then regarding the market recognition pricing we are thinking we have been thinking that we probably could do it the other way around. Maybe we could ask customers, our customers to help us support our efforts in different ways to be honest our EDD is not really a clear target right now yes we're still going toward that but there is a carbon credit and CER actually worth pursuing maybe not yet at this stage but we're still going that way but maybe we can inform the customers and the market in cost related marketing to provide percentage of our sales into the forest protection that we have in our mind and it's one of our our ideas as well. Thank you. Yes at the back. I'm Suicide from Myanmar I'm working with Action 8 I just want to ask the Korean model to sum you down again and you are saying that pretty much completely with community commitment and I just wonder how do you keep the mobilization participation of the people for the long run and I understand that this program is running in Myanmar and in dry zone which is getting dry what our sources are getting dry and where this program is running in Myanmar and why don't you go and build up a model in dry zone area. Thank you. Yeah thank you. As I mentioned that the our focal investments focus on three two aspects rehabilitation and restoration reclamation and the second one is capacity building. While in Myanmar we fully understand that among Asian countries some countries need develop their human resources so that's why we decided that among Asian countries that we agrees to establish the training centers in Myanmar which is not only the train for the farmers but we do have what you call it the degree programs and next five years we will have 10 PhD degrees and then 20 master degrees from Asian countries but our special focus on allow PDR Vietnam and Myanmar so why is that because we do understand that these two countries have more attention to improve their human capacity compared to other Asian member states. I think maybe the we will have to summarize a little bit at the end but one more question on the left maybe second last question I have one as well so if you allow me I think you only allowed one but colleagues from Vietnam yes please okay thank you my name is Leon and I work for the center for education and development I would like to learn a little bit more about Korean experience on cooperation for environment protection because like in Vietnam we have a strategy policy to sustainable development on how to balance social development environment protection and economics development but when it comes to reality environment protection always go to losing aim and also we have a lot of overlapping with the government ministry for instance the ministry of environment and national resource and ministry of agriculture and rural development and so we would like to know a little bit more about how to use strength and cooperation among different actors for sustainable development in South Korea and we are going to transfer that kind of experience to other Asian country thank you thank you very much we understand that Korea has not yet been listed as an X1 but they are the one that the first announced and have committed to the Green Road and what the new policies from Korea is now is that to give incentive for all companies that using this what we call it wood pallet instead of energy full energy they using wood pallet and government giving subsidized fully subsidized for all what we call it wood pallet energy the question is in Korea there's not enough land to develop this kind of thing that's why a lot of companies go to the Asian countries looking for the area for rehabilitation and then build the industries for wood pallet energy that kind of new policy from to develop particularly green roads economy something like that I think that's the last question before my last question back okay thank you for the opportunity given to me I want to address my question to panelist from the APP Asia Pop and Paper my name is Steve Harrison I work in the Asia youth climate network my question is is there any specific community development program or social empowerment projects around around the forest that APP operating because regarding the issue of sustainable forest management and corporate social responsibility I know that APP to make it happen so what the APP has been done for that thank you yes it's actually before we started the implementation of free from consent and it's cascading social conflict resolutions we adopted MDG minimum development goals and developer metrics and we also adopted government programs we also refer to the standard for the CSRI ISO standard as well so how we did it is basically we measure our social footprint across our operations and then from the social footprints we analyzed what are the gaps and we talked to the affected community how to close those gaps using the metrics but we also understood that by doing those alone we're not enough so we expanded our community development and community empowerment program to also adopting free and prior informed cons like and social conflict resolution because once you have a conflict it cannot be solved or resolved by providing a road or schools or something so it's got to be the core of the conflicts must be resolved first so by combining those social conflict resolutions free and prior informed concept and also goals going on MDG I believe that the rate of success is much higher thank you so I do have a last question to our private sector colleagues you have a spectrum of different stakeholders from small holders to large corporations that are driving the changes in our forest landscapes or are the architects of our forest landscapes the development agencies for example FAO and we had some of the examples of what we do often on the small scale on the small holders end of that spectrum and then you have larger corporations and investment funds who look into larger investments they want volume they want to be able to invest in larger sections of the landscape the question is do we have enough information about the smaller scale investments or interventions that could be upscaled through these larger corporations or funds because of course there is an opportunity to have more investments in these smaller scale interventions supporting these smaller scale interventions that are more often more poverty alleviation oriented so first of all is there enough information is this already happening is there enough information about this and would the private sector welcome this kind of research in the forestry sector I think Adam you have to answer the question first yeah sure we have a lot of insight and some of the areas we look at is community communities are involved you've always got the problem it's not necessarily an investment in the landscape or a larger landscape it's what that landscape is developing it's the quality and the quantity that can come out of a community forest but there is potential we're looking at areas in China which we can amalgamate and create into a larger block and still use and work with the communities if there was and others are doing great work on this there's been a lot of information already out there so it's available to us it's just back to the question the gentleman up in the back what's the barriers to investment even if you have institutional money behind you burning a hole in your back pocket it's still very difficult to invest here the risks are high the hurdle rate you have to reach is quite high for forestry because of those risks and then you have competing opportunity land costs oil palm or forest management isn't necessarily working or selling into the markets to acquire the due diligence required for some of the institutional money coming out over Europe so if there is information we can always use better and more information and there is potential for working with communities it's just as you say scaling them up but also getting the quality of the product out of the forest sure as always first, I don't think there are enough informations out there if you're talking about Indonesia secondly, yes learning from what has been done in smaller borders is a good idea but certainly, I'm sorry but trying to be pessimistic over here I don't think you can actually use the concept that you implemented small orders and then try to make it big at the landscape level because like I said earlier any programs especially forest protection cannot be done in isolations away from what happened in the other part of the landscape so if you the agency would like to have a more sustainable project or program or initiative that have to be done in a landscape level not really any smaller than or any small holders small holders can be part of the bigger landscape program but you have to look at both small and also landscape level that's the only way to be sustainable we are now closing or getting close to the closure of this session can I just ask Dr. Doris Capistrano to maybe summarize key points potential topics for research and policy development and maybe next steps recommendations for the organizers of this event thank you for the opportunity not only to summarize but hopefully also inject some issues that perhaps might not have come out very clearly from the discussion if you would allow me and do remind me if I'm running out of time just to go just to remind ourselves in terms of the key questions for this session first is forest and green growth which is the role of forest management in this new context forest management is a new concept that also leads to poverty reduction to what extent is this feasible and what are the approaches and current practices second has to do with a suite of issues related to green investment and benefits for people how can forest your practices and investments be greener and how can they increase benefits for people and the benefits more equitably shared the third is the outlook for ASEAN's forest and I understand my task to also reflect on what this might mean for ASEAN and going forward what the agenda might be not only for ASEAN but in general for research investment and capacity building with that in mind let me just remind ourselves of the presentations and the key messages that I understood them you have the presentations before you as well and downloadable Dr. Yurdi Yasmi reminded us that sustainable forest management does have a lot to offer to this concept of green economy a lot of it already exists a lot of this we already know how to do a lot of this the international community has worked on in various levels of detail including very detailed indicators monitoring protocols and cooperation agreements that exist including for example AFACO that has been presented in this panel however what is but he also reminds us that what we need to do is to be able to also talk about and build on previous lessons for example reduced impact logging the role of certification and other approaches such as natural regeneration that are not only technologically demonstrated but also have proven to be beneficial at various levels and he also indicated that and the number of issues related to that discussion also requires some flexibility in the approaches and I'd flag the issue of fire control which is key to successful regeneration a technical issue also from based on experience also has been a source of conflict in many locations and a major factor in climate change mitigation and adaptation within ASEAN there is also a cooperation agreement that deals with fire fire control, haze pollution control at the regional level so for ASEAN this is an issue as well the role of forest and climate change was something that Yordi talked about quite a bit of examples and figures associated with that the presentation from APP talked about an initiative that is relatively new only about one and a half years in the making as I understood it also from the question and answer a lot of this really has been changing people's minds and cultures and ways of looking at things both internally and within the communities in which they work from my understanding also from the responses a lot of this had to do with managing conflicts looking at clarifying the basis for the relationships free prior informed consent protocols and levels of assessment there was a mention of a major commitment a fairly major commitment from a very influential company and that is the commitment to for zero deforestation and a commitment to conserve and restore one million hectares of rainforest in nine priority landscapes in Indonesia at least from my understanding a lot of this is still in the very early stages and I'm sure that there's quite a bit of interest as well based on questions from the floor on how this will unfold from the question and answer Miss Greenberry alluded to a number of challenges that would be determining in terms of the success of these initiatives on many occasions she mentioned social conflict and how to deal with this there are also questions about how exactly you begin to roll out initiatives in cases where tenure and rights are contested I think land tenure was mentioned as a major source of conflict and the need to be able to not only deal with the root causes as she calls them of these conflicts before you even begin to take steps forward in terms of implementation as well as conservation in the way that has been committed to major issues are not unusual in places where they work illegal logging for encroachment but also the fact that there are many other actors, influential actors in the landscape and for companies like APP it is not only a commitment from their part but it is a commitment and I think one of the challenges is perhaps to up the bar to raise the bar for all other business competitors that hopefully would also commit to such an approach so I think one issue here is for private sector that are venturing into new territories trying to be environmentally responsible, socially responsible and to have a strong and expand the community and the pool of enlightened businesses so that collectively you may change happen on the ground. I think that is one way I would phrase it. There are a number of examples that were cited in places also where these initiatives are being implemented. The third presentation on AFOCO the ASEAN in Korea. A lot of information on the context for deforestation in ASEAN the basis for the interest of Korea in promoting this approach the kinds of programs and cooperation activities that are being supported but what seems to have taken and captured the interest of the audience is how exactly this new community movement works. I think it is who's driving it, who's funding it and how it is that you sustain interest in this movement. My understanding if I might inject a little bit of what I understand this movement to be that it's success correct me if I'm wrong it's success really rested on a very clear and very strong linkages from a centrally controlled centrally driven building on a tradition of grassroots democracy and local decision making on the ground. It also happened at the time when Korea was expanding into an industrialization so that there was a little bit of a transfer from the urban sector to the rural sector so investment was happening mediated through the national government down through the local governments but supported through funds funneled from one sector to another and the reason I raised that would be financing investments in the green economy. There were a number of questions raised from Adam's presentation and examples of how new forests actually manage investments based on sustainable forest management and this is perhaps to me anyway one of the novel practical approaches that seemed to have worked. I was very struck by the figures that was presented. There were six and 6.5% for USA and Canada region but 10 to 18% for Asia and Africa and I understand from Southeast Asia the rate of return for this kind of socially responsible investing is around 12%. If that is the case the business case for responsible investment perhaps have already been demonstrated and has already been made. Indeed the literature and the experience and analysis from this body of experiences shows that investment in forestry and sustainable forest management is a very good way of diversifying one's portfolio because it also tends to not only have great returns but also social and environmental payoffs as well and that makes it quite attractive. There were a number of examples that were presented and also directions to go forward in terms of what might be growth points including for example capitalizing on carbon value and how the direction of red and red markets could in fact potentially grow the potential for green investing based on sustainable forest management. Let me just say that I just a note and this is perhaps a research gap that could be looked at but in terms of investment we normally talk about funds credit and the kinds of assets that are injected from the input side. A very important based on a lot of experience from small scale community based mobilization is that there is a major need for the invisibles investing in the invisibles and then enabling conditions that would make an investment viable and one of the factors mentioned here was leadership as critically important and also empowerment was a word that was mentioned and institutional strengthening was a word that was mentioned but perhaps what needs to be done is to review the literature the knowledge and in the context of a landscape level because this tends to be very sectoral in the way this data and information has been analyzed to negotiate and renegotiate across components of the landscape how do you actually do this and for those colleagues who will be looking at research at the landscape level I would urge at least from my side research that would build on existing knowledge and there's quite a bit from the integrated rural development experience the watershed management experience community forestry from different parts of the world and how that could actually be used to manage more sustainable landscapes and create viable investments a number of questions and I would like to thank Bruno for this last question has to do with community forests and how this might actually be a component of a green growth and green economy into the future and how based on the response I think an issue here is how do you manage risks and how do you manage investment how do you begin to make it attractive to navigate competing opportunities and there is also an issue of scale I think a comment made from our colleague from APP is that you cannot simply scale up a small a small scale intervention to a landscape level true however I think the experience from this point on I think it's a little bit across the board there are cases of scaling up based on a cooperative federation type model and this has been done in Nepal this has been done in the early days in Sweden's forestry as well that has also tended to be quite equitable and enduring in terms of research and a research agenda this from my standpoint I would like to flag this as a particular research issue for C4 and other research institutions institutionally how do you design models for scaling up that cover the whole landscape in ways that are not uniform across the landscape that is the attractiveness of a landscape concept is that it allows for different uses of different parts by different groups that support multiple livelihoods and a little bit more work in terms of and I'm now looking at the agenda for investments a suggestion that I think can be gleaned from the floor is how do you begin to invest in the critical requirements for successful landscape management and that requires not only how do you build capacity the kinds of technology the kinds of financial flows how do you aggregate them with the rest a third point that we need to comment on is multi-stakeholder processes and dialogues and let me just say that at the local level this is well developed in some sectors including in forestry at the ASEAN level we are fortunate that there are mechanisms for such kind of a dialogue amongst governments but also across stakeholder groups and with development partners let me just mention one which is particularly promising in the sectoral framework on climate change agriculture forestry towards food security perhaps this is an area that needs to be looked at much more closely in terms of how regional cooperation could be structured to realize the potential gains of a green economy let me just conclude by saying in my comments that ASEAN and ASEAN countries individually and collectively are at the very critical juncture they are at the point in fact make green economy real however it would require transformations not only in policies because many progressive policies are in place but transformations in the way we incentivize and implement these policies but it also require a lot of cross sectoral collaboration and cross sectoral rethinking and finally I think it would require a rethinking and reimagining of the face of business in many cases within the region and outside the region business and the private sector face is usually seen to be large corporate and in many cases transnational I think the lessons from community forestry in places like Nepal and other areas especially with indigenous peoples getting rights to their land is that when we talk about businesses we also could talk about and think about as part of a diversified mix of business institutions and the older self-reliant communities that are benefiting from external assistance but eventually being able to manage their own landscapes in ways consistent with their own values and multiply the benefits from those green economy requires not only growth but also inclusive growth across the value chains and I think within ASEAN this is an excellent opportunity to do that and an enlightened business sector certainly has a role to play in the future and I think we will see examples here on the panel and hopefully there will be more in the future but it will not be easy and the task for research is to make it easier for those who want to participate in this transformative change and we command and hope that C4 RECOFT I see this RECOFT here and others could help through the way they craft their research agenda and we have a lot of announcement to make before we close this session there will be another session starting two minutes ago from 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock in the Java room this session will be about implementing FAO's global plan of action for the conservation sustainable use and development of forest genetic resources in Asia the side event will inform participants of the key findings of the first state of the world forest genetic resources this report which will be released in the summer of this year and associated to this report is a global plan of action so if you are interested in this topic of forest genetic resources the session will start now in the Java room so on behalf of FAO and the organizer of this event I would like to thank you for participating in this discussion forum and I would like to give a special thanks and applause to all the presenters who contributed to this forum today thank you very much and have a nice evening