Oh, man. This episode is controversial. We had Zubi on the podcast. He's a Oxford educated hip hop artist, social commentator, political commentator, very smart gentleman, very outspoken, very logical. It's hard to counter a lot of his arguments. Even if you disagree with him, he just, he's a smart person. Millions of followers because of his commentary. And today's episode is three hours long and we didn't leave anything untouched. Literally we talked about every single controversial topic you can think of. So we know you're going to enjoy this episode. Check it out. All right, Zubi, thanks for coming on the show, man. So I wanted to open with this.  Your opinions are very different from what a lot of people would assume, right?  He's going to have these opinions. And they're very counter from a lot of people would imagine you having. What motivates you? What made you have these opinions or why do you think the way you do? And how is it received? Yeah, it's a good question. I think it's a tricky one to answer because I think it's difficult for any of us to know exactly why we are the way we are and think the way we think. I guess it's a combination of both nature and nurture. I know for sure I have a pretty unique personality type. It's extreme in various dimensions. If you go off the sort of big five personality model, extraordinarily low in some things and incredibly high in other things. And I've always been that way. I also grew up in unique circumstances in various ways. So I'm one of, I'm one of five kids. My parents are originally from Nigeria. My family is Ebo. And I was born in the UK. There's a lot of people know I actually grew up in the Middle East. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 20 years from the age of one. I went to school there from kindergarten to fifth grade. I was in the American schooling system, which is why I don't even sound British. I've never had a British accent before. But I'm also the only person in my family with this accent, which is funny. When I was 11 years old, I went to boarding school in the UK. So from the age of 11, I was traveling internationally by myself back and forth between Saudi Arabia and the UK multiple times per year. I was in boarding school for seven years, went to two different schools, did really well in school, got into Oxford University, studied computer science there. That's also where I began my music career, graduated when I was 20. And then I did music full time for a year after graduating. And then I worked in corporate for about three years as a management consultant for one of the big companies. And then I, in November 2011, I took the big leap and went and pursued my music career full time. So for the past 11 plus years, I've been self employed. And I've just been on this adventure. It just started out with only doing music. Anyone who knew me prior to 2019 really would have just known me as a musician and as an artist. And then in the past four years, I've added all these additional strings to the bow. My podcast, Real Talk with Zubi, I've written and released two books now. I've been doing public speaking events around the world, just social media commentary, socio-political, cultural stuff. A lot of people know me for that now just for speaking out on all these various issues. And yeah, it's been quite a journey. So looping background to the original question, I think it's just this combination of my upbringing and experiences, my personality type, and then the way, just the way I view the world. I guess I've just always had a different angle of how I view certain things compared to how most people do. All right, everybody, this is a big episode. We had Zubi on the podcast, very controversial episode. So I'm going to do a huge giveaway. I'm going to give away the Maps Super Bundle. This bundle includes, I believe, four or five Maps programs. You can get them all for free, but you have to do this. Leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel. And then what we'll do is go through the comments, find the best one, and we'll notify you in the comment section if you won the Super Bundle for free. Also, we have three workout program bundles on sale this month. Each one is $300 or more off. Each one is up to nine months of planned workouts. If you want to learn more or you just want to sign up, click on the link at the top of the description below to sign up. All right, here comes the show. So you didn't feel one particular way and then have a moment that meant that made you a shift. No, you've always kind of questioned and kind of went counter or just look for things for yourself. I don't even know if it's counter because what's funny is some people consider me controversial or polarizing. And I think like 90% of the world agrees with most of my positions. Yeah, so talk about that because you know why? Because I think I agree with you, but it doesn't feel that way. It feels like it's 90 the other way, 10% with some of your views. Well, I think this is something interesting that's happened particularly in this age of social media, which is where you can make a very small minority look like either a majority or a very big minority. So you can have 3% of the population that holds a certain opinion. And with the power of the internet and even traditional media, that 3% can be made to look like 50 or 60%.  Like there aren't that many people who are actually far right or actually far left or full on, you know, like those are rare positions, even with all the what people now call the woke stuff, right? Like what percentage of people are genuinely like hardcore died in the wool wokies? Like it's not a big percentage of person. Yeah, it's they exist for sure. And I have come across them in person, but it's not it's not huge swathes of the population. It's not even the sort of typical left leaning democratic or labor voter, you know, anything like that. But with social media and also with the chilling effect, what can happen is that most people stay quiet. I think this is one of the fundamental differences between me and most people is that I won't be quiet, right? I won't just acquiesce and go along to get along if I have something I want to say that is counter to that 3% or whatever I will say I will be the one who says no, a man cannot be a woman, a woman cannot be a man, women cannot have penises, men cannot get pregnant. Everyone in the world knows this to be true, right? Ten years ago, no one would have even felt the need to say this because it wasn't up for debate. But we're living in an age of denial of denial of reality coupled with cowardice. That's probably the best way to put it. So it's not even that most people cannot see through certain things, it's just that most people will not speak up, right?  It makes no sense. It's a logical. Everyone is walking around the street or in a forest by yourself or driving around in a car by yourself with a map. Everyone, it makes no sense. It's silliness, right? But people are doing it and going along with it because as human beings, we're very social creatures, right? And so it makes sense that the greatest fear in the world next to death is fear of social disapproval. That's the greatest fear, right? The majority of adults are afraid of public speaking. They're not really afraid of public speaking because we all speak all the time. It's not that you're afraid to talk.   You're afraid of saying the wrong thing and looking silly, right? People say, oh, I want to start a YouTube channel. I want to write a book. I want to start a podcast. But you know, it's this and this. The only thing that holds them back is fear of social disapproval, right? They don't want to put up a video and oh, people leave negative comments or they downvoted or it doesn't get as many views as they want. And so they look silly. All of these things, all the things that people want to do that they don't, majority of the time, it's that fear of social disapproval that holds them back. And it's not even that that's something that is inherently bad. It exists for a reason, right? There are, you know, shame is not a, it's a neutral thing, right? There are certain things that you should feel shame about or you should be concerned about social disapproval. I think it evolutionarily exists because there's value to it as well. Yeah, there's absolutely value to it. But I think that a lot of these basic biological things that are wired in us, they can be triggered and set off by the wrong things. Do you see what I mean? So we have a natural, it's well studied, for example, that human beings, people, we are, we're more sensitive to negative and to threats than we are to positive, for example, right? So if this podcast goes out there and 1000 people leave a positive comment and five leave negative ones or harsh ones, those five stick out, you're not there focusing on the 1000 of wow, like people really like this. It's like, man, why did that guy say, why did that guy say that mean thing? You know, you get 2000 likes and 80 dislikes. What's up with those 80? Right? That's how we are. And I think that's because it makes sense to be, you know, we're ultimately built to survive. Right? We're built to survive. We're always trying to perceive threats and dangers and things like that. And now that we live in this very comfortable society, where let's be honest, like the real dangers of nature or of wildlife or day to day survival, famine, disease, all those type of things, they've mostly been taken care of, right? On a day to day basis, you're not overly concerned about just survival. How are we going to get our next meal?  But I think that but we still have that same wiring. So I think that the things that set off those threat detectors become more minor and more minor, like the bar keeps on decreasing on what it is that people are so fearful of. Yeah, so I want to comment on that because just to back you up, first off, for most of human history, if you were ostracized, that meant you died. Yes. So it's a top fear because they're because it was a real risk for your life. And have you seen those studies where people and these are funny studies, but they're they're real. And there's the people doctor's office where they yeah, people walk into a doctor's office, everybody's actors, except for the person walking in, a bell will go off. Everybody will stand up and sit down. After about two or three times, the person who's not the actor just follows along where they'll be like an elevator and everybody's lined up in single file, facing the wrong way. And the person naturally gets behind everybody just does the same thing. So I think that proves what you're saying that it's extremely powerful. So along those lines, do you think that this minority of crazy voices is popular because of algorithms and clicks? Or do you think that there's something more nefarious? In other words, do you think that people are taking advantage of this fear mechanism that we have for being socially ostracized and are using it to keep everybody else silenced? So that this appears to be the the majority. And if that's the case, then why? And also how much of it do you think is artificially engineered?  There's been what's called the Long March through the institutions. So you know, if you really want to go to the origins of what again, like what people now call woke ism or cultural Marxism or, you know, these sort of, honestly, far far left ideas, which have now got a grasp of, of course, academia, but also in entertainment, some elements of big tech, other institutions. A lot of this has been intentionally planned for many decades since far many, many decades before I was born. You could go back to the to the Frankfurt School. So these are not new ideas. But what's happened in the past decade is they've gone more mainstream. And then so yes, it is intentional, because there are small elements out there who want to upend and overturn many elements of society and kind of flip the hierarchy from what they currently perceive it to be.  And they've really read up on, you know, Marxism and postmodernism and the origins of gender ideology and queer theory, all of these things that you could name certain people who are the architects of these ideas. And they've never even heard of them. But they're still, they're still espousing and mirroring the ideas that they got in college or whatever it is.  So it's not a new these these ideas are not new. They've just penetrated and gone beyond the fringes of academia, very much in the past decade, which is why if you talk to most people, regardless of even even where they sit politically, a lot of people would say that around somewhere between 2011 and 2013, it's like we entered there was some kind of break and we entered some new weird reality where like, you know, prior to 2010, in 2010, some of the conversations that are now being had and have been had over the last few years, these were things that weren't up for debate. These aren't things that people were saying or questioning and so on. That's when it started getting weird. That's when it really started getting weird, right? I think that's when it tilted. I'd say 2012. Yeah, that's why I often say that in the past decade. That's when clown world my calendar was right. Essentially. Yeah. Now some moderates would say, so what? Leave him alone. Why is it such a big deal? Why do you think it is it is so important that we speak up or do you and or do you believe it's these are dangerous ideas? Yeah, exactly. It's if the ideas are destructive and dangerous and harmful to people on an individual and a societal level, which I would absolutely argue that these woke ideas are. I don't even like that word woke. I just there's not really a better term for it that people are going to easily understand that encapsulates all these different ideas, right? So this encapsulates the gender theory, which includes the modern notions of transgenderism. This includes what people would call critical race theory and ways of viewing, you know, race in society, right? Someone who believes this idea will look at a room like this and automatically they're making all sorts of judgments and aspersions based on all of our skin color, right? They already know racism is happening. They're just trying to work out how it's happening, right? Like no matter what you do right now, if you say that you're not racist, then that's that's evidence that you are racist, right? Yeah, you can't win if you like, okay, no matter what you do, like if you're white, right, if you say you're if you deny it, then that's evidence of your racism, right? That's your for your white fragility or whatever nonsense they call it.  So maybe I'm white supremacist, right? They have all these goofy ideas. Remember when Chappelle did that bit? And everybody thought that was so funny. Now like, yeah, everybody's like, no, you can act. Yeah, right. Yeah. Didn't it just a couple of weeks ago, they had the article with a Kanye and you know, talking about was it multiracial white supremacy or something? And you're just like, what on earth are these people talking about? So yeah, all those ideas, some of the more extreme notions of, you know, modern day, third or fourth wave feminism are encapsulated in those ideas. So, you know, it really is just cultural Marxism. It's instead of the bourgeoisie in the proletariat, you're splitting it along typically, race, sexuality and gender. That's why those are the three sort of categories that are always going with that way. But to me, all the above are destructive. That's why it's a problem. Because these are number one, it's false. Right. Number one, the ideas are not they're, they're just false. Yes. Okay. The idea that all white people are racist. That's false. Right. This is one of their tenets. It's literally a tenet. But I'm like, that is false. The idea of all black people are oppressed. It's complete bollocks. Right. My Britishness is slipping out. Right. But it's, it's, it's, it's false. It's false. And also it's, it's divisive and damaging. Right.  Right.  Like that's not healthy. That's not positive.  Right. You don't want to walk around all day hung up on your identity and people's immutable characteristics, all that stuff. It's, it's not accurate and it's not helpful. And I think you can, you can genuinely see the division that it causes. You can, you can see the division when you've got people again.  It's still collectivism. It's all collectivism. It is. It's, it's still going back to, oh no. Like these are the type of people who will tell you that it's racist to be colorblind. Right. That if you say something like, oh, you know what, I don't really see a race. Like I don't judge people that way or whatever they're like, oh, no, that's a problem. And it's like, what are you, this isn't, this is what the KKK were pushing. Right.  And you've got people who are pushing for segregated graduations and having different dorm rooms for different ethnicities. And so I'm just like, that is, that's psychotic. Strangely moved away from just basing it off of your character. Yeah. It's, it's, it's going full circle. It's like Pac-Man. You know, if you go all the way to the far right of the screen, you pop back up on the far left. If you go on the far left, you pop back up on the hall. It does feel like that. It does feel like that. You know, you know, um, uh, so I have a theory as to what may be driving all of this. Um, and really, if you, if you really want to look at evidence for this, if you look at the Soviet Union and how they effectively manipulated their people, a lot of what they did is they would say one thing and they would counter it and then they would say something else and constantly getting people to the point where they didn't know what was right or wrong and they waited for their leaders to tell them what to think. And I feel like if they destabilize us enough to, this is true, then tomorrow this is not true. This word means that. No, tomorrow now it means that. Eventually we are, we have no solid footing.  We don't necessarily know why. We have no solid footing. Makes us very easily manipulated. What university, what university was that just came out with two days ago with field? You can't, they're gonna, field is racist. Oh, yeah. Did you see that? Oh, the word field? Yeah, the word field is being removed from my USC. Yeah, well, yeah, it was USC. Yeah, they're removing the word field. You can't say football field anymore. Football. Yeah, what do you meant to call it? Yeah, I don't even know what they're gonna call it. How far can we go with this redefining? Let me guess, this is because like field harkens back to plantation slavery or something. Yeah, cotton fields. Yeah, of course. Some are like that. I didn't even know that.  I don't even understand. What's the problem with field? I don't know. But I do feel like if they do this and they do this well enough, we're just, we're very easily manipulated. And so it's like, let's get them all, do you agree? 100%, it's divide and conquer. Again, it's nothing new. Which, by the way, what I didn't understand and I just like literally heard someone to have this conversation is that that's actually human nature. Like that we come out with this desire to try and conquer. We actually have to fight against that not happening.  Like you don't realize that if you just leave it alone and we just go to what's natural to us. It's tyranny. It is to conquer. Yeah, it is. And it's tribalism. You know, something I think about a lot is just that human nature is just what it is. Right? So first of all, number one, history is still happening. Right? We have an idea of history is in the past. Like we're done with history. Like we're living in the history of the future right now. Okay. So history is not done. And modern people, I've said this before, we only have two advantages over our ancestors. That's it. Biologically, natural urges, all that stuff. We are the same. We're the same as our great-grandparents, our great-great-grandparents. That's why the seven deadly sins are just as applicable today as they were thousands of years ago. Yeah. The only two advantages we have are we, number one, we have better tech. We have better stuff. Right? We literally have better technology. These microphones, medical stuff, food stuff, all the tech that we have. We have better stuff. Number two is we have access to the past. We know what happened in the past. So there are even certain ideas. How do you know certain ideas are bad that we were just discussing? Because we've done that before. How do we know racial segregation is not good? Because it's been tried. How do we know slavery is a bad idea beyond like, you know, something in our... It's been tried for thousands of years. This is what it led to. How do we know it's bad to judge people and treat people differently based off immutable characteristics? Because most of human history, that's actually what was done. And it's still happening in some parts of the world. And it leads to misery. At the worst, it leads to ficking genocide. So let's not be so... In the words of C.S. Lewis, let's not have so much chronological snobbery and think that we're so far ahead of all these people and whatever. Like you can see how quickly people go back to tribalism. Remember just last year or the year before where it was more... It was more 2021 where it peaked when the whole vaccinated versus unvaccinated division, right? The way that the media just managed to split people into a binary tribes that no one had ever even thought of before. We've had vaccines our entire lives. That's the first time I've seen that something like that go and divide family and friends. It happened in my own family and friends. It happened in millions. And I would consider myself a very non-political type of person and many of my family and friends like that. And it divided us. It's crazy. Millions of people across the globe that happened. Millions of families and friendship groups disrupted by that, right? No one ever lost a friend over whether or not someone took a flu shot. Think of all the vaccines that are available.  No one ever even knew whatever. It wasn't commonplace to even ask somebody, oh, did you take... Like, whatever. Who cares? That's your business. That's private. And the media very intentionally, very intentionally, and the politicians, they managed to just split people so that people's own sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, friends, they're now looking at each other askew or don't want to be near each other based off of this thing. Complete PSYOP. Complete PSYOP, right? But that shows the power of it. So one thing about human nature is we have a tendency to be tribal. And again, tribalism, just like we were talking about social disapproval, it's not something that's inherently bad, right? Of course, there's positives to tribalism. If you've got a family, right? There's a... You feel tribal about your family. I trust people I know more than people I don't. Absolutely, everybody does, right? Everybody does. Your nation, you typically are going to care about your country or even your city or your state more than... It doesn't mean you don't care about the rest, but we have all that in-group, out-group, in-group, out-group. If you're a member of a religion or a certain community or whatever, you're going to feel more affinity towards people within that to some degree. And that's fine. So I think the solution isn't that... I don't think you can't get rid of tribalism. It's there. But to me, the solution is you make the tent as big as possible, right? So instead of focusing on all the minutia of the things that people have different, which is infinite, it's like, all right, well, what do we all have in common? Let's go up a level. Let's go up a level, right? So when people are dividing along all these things, it could be race, it could be ethnicity, it could be gender, it could be religion, it could be politics, it could be whatever. If you go up a level or two, that's where you always find the commonality. So something that's interesting to me, one of the differences between the UK and US, for example, is, say, on the topic of race, I don't like talking about racial stuff, but I think this is interesting and important.  Doesn't it just sound weird? Doesn't it even sound weird if someone said, oh, Zuby's a black Brit? Or Zuby's like, it sounds weird. But in the States, black American, African American, Asian American, white American, like these are terms that you hear all the time. And as an outsider, that's something that strikes me. I'm like, that's weird. Why do they do that? And I guess I know some of the answer because there's historical reasons for it. But I'm kind of like, you're all American. Like why the prefixes? Why the obsession with the prefixes? If you just drop that and it's just like American, then automatically, even in terms of bonds, it bonds everyone. I'm like, well, you're all American. You're all country made. Like you're all from the same place. Like why are you going so granular to the point where, okay, now you've got all these other, you're creating new lines of fracturing, right? And now you've got, I don't know, now they'll, because that's what they do with all the intersectionality stuff. Well, again, I don't like the idea because it's like, oh, well, as a black, lesbian, female, vaccinated, expert, like whatever, you can't just be, just be who you are. You know why we need to- I think ideas are probably a good way. Like thoughts, behaviors, ideas, beliefs, probably a better way to put people together. Along those lines, America in the 19th century and early 20th century, I mean, to come here was really, you just showed up. If you just showed up, you were accepted.  And just to preface, a lot of people think that, oh, they're all white, okay. Italians, Germans, French, Irish, were, I mean, they were not, they didn't consider each themselves the same at all. I mean, Europe went to war, world war, twice over their differences. So they all came over here, super different. Italians, Germans, Irish, I mean, very, very different, but they had ideas that were the same. And the ideas were, we're all here for freedom and liberty. We all want opportunity. I know my family came here for that same reason. I'm the product of immigrants. So they all bonded over this idea of freedom and liberty. And they built businesses and worked with each other. And here's the word tolerated, actually tolerated each other pretty well. And they did pretty damn well as a result. We grew, all of a sudden it's become this divide instead of unite. It's very strange to me. It's weird how we've done that. And then back to the behavior commentary, it is true that we have natural behaviors, but what makes us human is our ability to consciously look at our behaviors and modify them. I mean, I work in the fitness space. I've worked in fitness for over two decades. Like our natural tendency is to overeat, not move, right? But we know better. And so in modern societies, those of us who are more conscious about it, move more and eat healthier. Because if we just listened to our behaviors, we would be sick and unhealthy. So I wanted to touch on that because people make the nature argument. And although there's some truth in there, there's lots of truth in the fact that we become enlightened, that we can look at things and modify them. And I think that's really important. Yeah, absolutely. And look, if you're an adult, even as a child, we constantly have to fight human nature, right? We have to fight human nature, and we have to fight our own individual natures, right? We all have our own set of personality traits with flaws. We have our proclivities, the things that were... Some people have quite addictive personalities, right? You know, if you have that, you're quite prone to becoming addicted to things. Some people are more prone to laziness, while some people are more conscientious. We all have these different things. And I think part of becoming a functional adult is, like you said, not just saying, oh, well, I have this natural urge, so I just indulge every natural urge.  So I think it's a matter of just recognizing, okay, this tendency exists, both within myself and within other people. Knowing that, how do I become conscious of it, and then what's the best way forward? For example, if you're someone who you know you're... I'd say I have a personality that's somewhat addictive. I think I have a tendency to form habits pretty quickly and get addicted to things, and I've used that very much to my success, to become addicted to things that are positive, right?  But then, cool, I'm addicted to going to the gym and exercising. I've been doing that for two decades at this point. It's like as natural as brushing my teeth. I enjoy the work that I do. I enjoy, you can spin a lot of things into something positive, right? So I think that's the best way to do it, and it looks different for different people. But I think, look, fundamentally, you're not gonna... You can... How to put it? I don't think we can fundamentally change human nature. It's just what it is, but we can change how conscious we are of it, and how we approach things both individually and collectively in order to keep certain things in check. I want to ask you about fitness, because I know you're a big fitness guy. In fact, that's how somewhat along the lines of fitness, that's how you kind of got popular with your deadly record. Which was absolutely... That was brilliant, good times. It was brilliant. I never thought I would see these ideas, and again, using the term woke ideas, permeate my space, fitness. I never thought that, and yet it is. Nothing is safe. Nothing is safe. I've seen now articles saying that lifting weights is toxic masculinity. I just shared an article the other day. The roots are from white supremacy. The white supremacist roots of gyms. Of exercise, yeah. Of exercise, body acceptance movement, which is not real body acceptance. They've morphed it into something different. How do you feel about it? Because you've been working out for a long time. Yeah. Were you as surprised as I was? When I saw it come into my space, I was like, there's no way. No, because this stuff's been on my radar for longer than it's been on most peoples. And even before I started to publicly speak out on some of this stuff, I was talking about it privately with people for five, six years, as it was said, certainly from the early 2010s. And so I saw the trajectory that these ideas were going in, and I saw that they were going to, I don't know, say for example, even something goofy like the whole preferred pronouns thing or the made-up gender thing. I mean, I saw that happening in like 2013. Really? 2012, yeah. And I was like, this thing is going to become a thing. Even with the deadlift that I did. So I remember having conversations with people back in 2016, 2017, talking about this, saying that there's going to be a whole issue with males identifying as women and competing in female sports and crushing. I was saying this back in 2016, 2017. It doesn't sound that long ago. And a lot of people would look at me weird and be like, come on, dude, that's not going to happen. Yeah, that's too crazy.  Like, people won't accept that. And I was like, dude, it's going to happen. Like, it's already happening in certain places and you're just not seeing it. It's not mainstreamed yet. And then, I mean, that deadlift video I did, that was four years ago. That was four years ago. And even when I did that in February 2019, it was on some people's radar, but not to the level that it is, say, now. Now people are more aware of the fact that this is happening and it's even happening like these, you've got dudes winning female beauty pageants and all of these other things that are happening. And so now it's sort of hit a mainstream consciousness. But I think that if you see such things early, it's quite easy to see where they're going. So I knew that these ideas, they're not going to just stay within academia or entertainment. It's going to get into every single thing. It's in the military. It's in the fitness world. It's in the science world. It's in everything. To use the term, Gad Sad would use. No, he calls them... Parasitic. Yeah, parasitic, right? Mind viruses. And that's how they spread. And I think they also spread because there is something... I think there's a lot of reasons. I think the fact that society is much more secular. Is a massive factor in how these things are able to spread. Because to some degree, they act as a substitute for traditional religion to a lot of people.  So if you don't worship God, you're going to worship God. Yeah, I believe human beings are... One of the strongest conclusions I've come to in the past few years is truly that I believe human beings are inherently religious. I always lean to think that that is true. Now I'm like, I absolutely believe that to be true. And that religious urge can be supplanted by lots of different ideas and ideologies. And people can become religious and zealous over many different things, which is really what we're seeing. But I think that's a factor. I think also that it appeals to a lot of people's emotions and feelings. And people do want to have a sense of morality and right and wrong and in-group and out-group and have some type of idea of an enemy. And I also think that it appeals because... What was the last point I was going to make there? Slip my mind. No, explain what you mean by humans are inherently religious. Yeah. What I mean is that naturally... Okay, even if you just think of it sort of pragmatically.  These include purpose, meaning, a sense of morality, a sense of community, some guidance and ethics on what is right and what is wrong. We've already talked about the fact that there are tribalistic elements and so on. And for most people around the world, even still, most people, religion answers all of these things. Right? It provides meaning. It provides purpose.   You've got your community there. You've got your guidelines. And it offers answers and explanations for many things in the world. So science is cool, but there's a lot of stuff that no matter how advanced science gets, you can't answer. Science is largely amoral. It's not immoral. It explains how things are. It's supposed to be amoral. Yeah, it's supposed to be. I'm talking about actual science, the science, which is now turning into a secular religion. Scientism. Yeah, scientism, right? And so I think that, look, whether someone believes in, if someone is a theist and believes in God, you're going to believe that the religious urge is just hardwired in human beings, because we are from God and created in his image. But even from a, I'm not an atheist, but even if you were a totally atheistic, secular person who just thinks it's just, we're just on this spinning rock flying around the sun and we've just evolved over all these years, the truth would be even then, in that case, we've evolved to be religious.  Most countries, most tribes, most groups have had different religious beliefs in a way. But so even if you took that hard line evolutionary perspective, you, it's still easy to conclude. Okay, well, there's clearly a proclivity towards religion, right? And maybe there were societies that rejected this in the past, but they're not, they're not around in this time. And maybe there's a reason for that. So I don't think you can really get away from that, from that urge. And something that is interesting is even with people who are more secular or consider themselves atheists and so on, they're still looking for all those aforementioned things. Maybe some people want to go and sit on a mountain and meditate, maybe they want to do psychedelics, maybe they want to, but they want to, maybe they won't use the term God, but they're trying to get closer to the universe or to the source or to whatever it is, right? That whatever social, yeah, like there's different ways, but it's so fascinating to me that you can't, it's interesting because so many people are rejecting tradition, traditional religion or trying to move this way, trying to move away from it. And you still see those. To just reframe it. Yeah, you still see those same religious urges and impulses. Like when I look at the hardcore Wokeys, I'm like, that is a secular religion. 100% it's a cult. It's, if you look at the people who are really into the COVID stuff, right, what I call branch comedians, it's a, it's a religious, it's zealous. They're more religious than the average religious person in many ways, right?  I'll sit in a room with someone who's like, un-baptized, no problem. Yeah.  And so they're taking it to, here's another thing I believe. I believe that zealotry is a personality trait. And you can kind of run different software on it. So when I see those type of people, I think these are the people who would have been, you know, a few hundred years ago, they'd be the ones, you know, calling people out to be witches and wanting to burn them at the stake or whatever, right? Because they have that overzealous personality trait. Agreed. It's not that, it's not that the zealotry comes from the ideology or the religion or whatever. I just think some people have that personality trait and it leans, it leans the more towards authoritarianism and they like to be holier than now and want to tell other people what to do. And absolutely, you get people who do that under the basis of religion. You have people who do that under the basis of politics. You've even got people, even with diet, right? You have people who... Are you kidding me? Like we know, you don't bring up religion, politics, or diet. I'm kidding you, because you know, it's funny. So because we make choices, you know, every decision you make as a choice, as a human, we're conscious of our choices. So I wore these shoes because they're better than another pair of shoes I have for today or whatever. I take a left because that's a better direction than, you know, taking a ultimately, you have a top value and that is what you end up worshiping. So that's so because we are hierarchical creatures, we make choices, we don't just act, you know, through instinct, we actually make choices. That means at the top as a top value, that's what you end up worshiping, whether you're conscious of it or not. And there's one thing that all totalitarian regimes and cultures, for all human history is one thing they all have in common. Either they get rid of God so that they can replace God or they become God and they say, I am your God. That's one thing you'll notice. So you look at like this is why they get rid of the church or they oppress people who believe in, you know, a religion or whatever.  Yes. So for this is one of the reasons I think that this is exploding. I agree with you. It's because we're so secular. And so we're left floating and wandering. And it's very easy to plug in something else, whether it's done on purpose or we just, you know, we interviewed Bishop Barron a while back and he said, historically he said, if you don't worship God, you tend to worship money, power, pleasure or honor, which can also be fame. And if you look around, it makes total sense. This is what we end up, just through our actions, what we end up worshiping. So it is very interesting. And this was predicted, you know, these communism was predicted and these types of ideas were predicted by people who weren't even, they weren't even religious. I'm trying to think of his name, popular, yeah, yeah. They would say, look, God dies, what's going to replace that? Nature. Yeah, really bad. Yeah. And it makes total sense. Again, and I'm not even making an argument for the existence of God right now. But if you just think about this very logically and pragmatically, you use the term hierarchy, right? So we'd all recognize that we have a hierarchy of values or morality or authority. So for someone who believes in God, the answer is, what's at the top of the hierarchy? God. God is above myself, above the government, above any other ideology, whatever, God is at the top. Just logically, if you remove God from the top of the hierarchy, there still has to be something at the top, right? You can't have a hierarchy with nothing at the top, just logically. There's got to be something. So what's now at the top? Oftentimes, it's the state, as you alluded to earlier, right? That's where statism comes in, just worship of the government and the government ideology. It could be politics. It could be nihilism. It could be hedonism. It could just be yourself, right? Okay, well, if there's no, you know, I'm at the top, right? I decide what morality is. I decide whatever. And that can also often just go to, all right, I'm just going to seek pleasure. If it makes me feel good, that's what I do. And that's hedonism. Or you could also just fall into, oh, you know what? Like, it's all, none of it matters. And that's more like nihilism. You could end up, we've already talked about statism. You could just, you could fit whatever else, celebrity worship, materialism, money worship. It could just be, okay, well, at the top is money or power, right? That's all that's at the top. So as long as, you know, it's in pursuit of power, it's in pursuit of money or whatever, ethics, morals, whatever, that doesn't even matter. And this is also where truth becomes subjective, right? So I think before, again, before about 2012, I don't think I ever heard anyone use the term, terms like his truth, her truth, your truth, my truth. No one used to speak like that. There was just that truth. No one used to speak like that. Just go back to 2008. No one used to say, oh, that's her truth. That's his truth. That's, that's new. That's new speak. And so even to me, that's, that's interesting because that's people then just putting, okay, now the truth is subjective. If I feel that it's true and I say that that's my truth, then not only is it true, but if you question it even or you challenge it or you say, wait, hang on, you don't get your own truth, then that's now perceived as an attack, right? That's not, that's not, that's not just you disagreeing with me. That's you denying my existence. I'm sure you guys have heard the phrase, right? Where people say, you're trying to erase my existence. You're denying my, I'm like, I'm not trying to deny it.  And me saying that isn't me trying to attack anyone or be vicious towards anyone. I'm just saying that that's objectively not true. It's still grounded in reality. You can believe that this table in front of us is a circle. You know, I'd support your right to believe that. You could say it's a yellow circle. I'm like, no, it's a brown rectangle or cuboid, but you know, where we're living in this time where if someone's like, no, actually it's not a yellow circle. You're being violent. Yeah. Yeah. You're being, I don't know, geometry phobic or does it all unravel? Does it all unravel? Yes. And are we going to see it soon? I said, that's what I feel. Let me give you some optimism. Okay. That's how soon we're going to get to the bottom of the three of us. I'm the most optimistic. Like this is the natural swing. Very pessimistic. It just swung harder than ever because of technology and stuff like that. It's coming back. Tell me, do you know why before, before I, before I answered, let me, let me explain why I also why I think that some of this is happening. I think a lot of it is happening because for the first time and in the first place in all of human history, we actually truly have equality under the law and genuine, generally speaking, true social tolerance for the first time ever, right? So if you go back to any, any previous decade, let alone century in this country, in any other country, you could very clearly point out laws, either laws on the books or social laws that were genuinely discriminatory or bigoted towards a certain group of people or groups of people, right? No one would deny that even in a country as great as the USA, I mean, it's only how long of black people even had the right to vote in this country. It's not even a century, right? People used to be enslaved, people were not allowed to vote, all sorts of things, right? And keep in mind that the US is like ahead of most countries in terms of resolving these things, right? Slavery was abolished here and, you know, before it was in most of the world. For thousands of years, human beings were enslaving each other and doing all sorts of awful stuff. So there was always a fight, right? There was always a fight of like, okay, we need to genuinely have equality under these laws. We need to genuinely tolerate people. You know what? It's wrong to beat someone up in the street because they're a different race or because they're homosexual or this or this, right? That was even happening in the fricking 90s, right? So we've made all this progress and finally actually reached a level where if I'm like, okay, tell me a law that is just outright discriminatory against like a group of people, right? You think you'd really struggle, right? The closest we got was when they started all the discriminating against the unvaccinated nonsense, which is one of the things that made alarm to me so much about it. I was like, what the heck? This is a huge step backwards. You know, people can't do it. Even when you've got these people marching for women's rights or whatever and someone asked them, okay, like what rights do you want that you don't have? Like they can't answer. I can tell you a couple actually. Okay. There's laws that in here, I don't know how they are in the UK, but here where, let's say you're Asian or white, you have to score higher. So there's a formative action laws that are actually discriminatory. Those are the only ones that I know of that are on the book. And isn't that interesting? Because that's an overcorrection for what they perceived to be the issue. So you think we're just spoiled and we just need something to... Well, I think it's two things. I think number one that people haven't noticed, right? I think with the constant push for progress and fairness and equality and all that, which is a good urge, I think people haven't sort of looked up and gone, wait, hang on, like we did it, right? Like actually, like, wait, we actually have like... Maybe we should calm down a little bit. Yeah, right? Like there's still that zealotry of I want to fight, I want to fight. And then following on from that, I think there are people who are just activist-minded, right? Yeah. Particularly on the left side of the aisle. And some of them, especially the older ones, like they have been fighting for all these decades, right? They were part of the civil rights fight. They were part of, you know, this, they were part of that. And so they still, they're looking for the next thing. I think Douglas Murray calls this the St. George and Retirement Syndrome, right? Looking for dragons to slay. You're still there with your sword, looking for the dragons.  That's the example I think we just saw with USC. And I think it's got to this point where like we are now actively looking for something. There's got to be something else racist. There's got to be something else that's oppressive. Find it, you know? Yeah. Oh, feel. There it is.   Juicy, what's his name? Smollet. He had to hire people to beat him up to say that. Literally committing hate crimes against themselves. The thing is, that's only one of many examples. Right, right, right. That's the crazy part, right? Because it's famous we know about it, right? Yeah. Right. It's like, like, it's actually crazy where literally you hear about a so-called hate crime and now I'm like, yeah, they probably did it to themselves, right? And that's happened. People say, oh, there was racist graffiti or there was a, they find the guy on CCTV. He's there like writing, you know, he's there doing it himself. Or there was that one with a, what's that, what's the NASCAR driver? Yeah. Oh yeah, with the new show. Roe Bubba. The new thing. Yep. I was going to say Bubba Smollet. I can't remember his, Bubba. Yeah, there was that whole thing.  So, you know, I think it's good that people have those urges to want to have the fairness and the equality and all that. But I think if you people kind of looked up and had that sense of gratitude and just go, okay, wait, hang on. Where were we in 1923?  Yeah. Four million. Right? Like, that's, isn't that nutty to think? There were people in Congress and in like, you know, in government who were openly KKK members. Can you even, like you can't even fathom that now. No. That sounds unreal to think that there's open KKK members in Congress and in the police force and so on. So, the strides have been incredible. And I think people get so stuck on the past that they can't go, okay, like that was FDOP. That was bad. But yo, look at how much progress has been made in such a quick time. Let's have some gratitude. Is that how you would counter the argument when people trick? Because they try and lean on like statistics still. Like you, like, like example, this would be like the gender pay gap, pay gap with women is they'll lean on like statistics to try and prove that it's still going on. It's still bad. I think they go in with a belief, then they use the statistic, don't break it down. And they don't want to look at the nuance. It justifies their, oh, this seat, it still exists because. Something that's important for people to understand is that disparity does not equal discrimination. Oh, so glad you said that. People will just look at a statistic and go, oh, there's a disparity. Therefore, some type of ismophobia is taking place. And I'm like, that's the most low resolution version of anything. There's our infinite reasons. What a great point for all sorts of disparities. Anybody who understands data and statistics knows that that's a terrible way to break down a number. You don't make a conclusion right out the gate. So you got to figure out where your controls are and what's going on. Otherwise, you've got nothing. Yeah. Well, that's how exactly how the gender pay gap unravels, right? As you start to unpack it and go, oh, well, you know, you also take in factor and that women are pregnant for nine months. And that would naturally mean go this way. Well, this is how it is. Naturally, women do different jobs. Right. It's not a new different thing. You know, it was interesting about that one. I had a conversation with them. When that was real, when they were pushing it politically, I had a conversation with a friend was like, see, this is what's going on. I said, I asked them, I said, what, why do companies outsource to other countries? Well, to save money because they could pay less for the same kind of labor. And I said, well, if women are getting paid less, why don't they just hire women? And there was the look on the cost effect. Oh, wait a minute. Doesn't make any sense. This is the thing. I think these ideas, they emotionally hijack people. And they don't think of it past like five seconds. Because if something like the gender pay, like the fact that that even persists still like that's been being debunked since the 90s.  And I'm just like, bro, please, how are you, how are you still repeating this? I mean, the thing is also people don't often, some people don't apply just common sense. So I had someone who I remember getting in this conversation where there was this music festival happening in the UK. It was a hip hop festival. And there was this person on Twitter who, they had the lineup of all the performers on the bill. And he blanked out all of the male performers. And there were maybe like six or seven female performers out of, I don't know, 50 or 60 people performing on the thing. And he was like, ah, right. You know, this is evidence of sexism in the music industry. And I was like, bro, how many female rappers can you name? Right. He literally got to like three and was like, um, uh, whatever. And I'm like, how, I was like, hip hop is like at least 90% dudes. Right. Way more men are rappers than are female. Not because women are not allowed to be rappers. Women have been allowed to rap for many decades. But because men and women are different, right? You can look at areas where it's, it's 80, 90% female dominated nursing, obvious one, primary school teaching. Only fans, right? Because I feel like that's one of the best arguments to disrupt that argument. It's just like, well, then what's going on with the, why aren't the men getting paid equally on only fans? With the modeling, female models are paid a lot more than the models. So, um, and that why, because of supply supply and demand, right? But it's, these things are not, it's, it's funny because they're not hard to understand at all. And what's weird is because just living your life, even if you don't get into all the studies and the data and all this stuff, if you've lived for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, whatever, even just off your own experiences, you know that men and women are fundamentally different in a lot of ways. And one of the most obvious ones is we have different interests, right? I don't know how you can exist in the world and meet thousands and thousands of people and not work out, I mean, even within your own family, even if you, if you have kids, if you, whatever you recognize, okay, like males and females are, are just different. Yeah, sure. There's a lot of overlap and everyone has their own personality, but there's, there's fundamental differences and that leads to different choices. And different decisions. And I'm of the opinion that not only is this not a problem, it's good. Right? People get hung up on like the issue of like, oh, trying to get, we need gender balance in this. And we, I'm like, what's wrong with it being it? Why do we have to be the same? I'm cool with inequality. Inequality is good. That's going to get close. No, but, but genuinely in many things, what's not good, what's not good is unfair discrimination and mistreatment and denial of opportunities. Yes. That should not be able to do what you want. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that everyone's going to want to do the same thing. No. And God forbid, that would be awful. Right? We all, we all have siblings, right? Yep. Okay.  Even within the same household. Yeah. What you do versus what your, what your siblings do, the decisions you, you end up in different fields. I can't even raise my kids the same. I have to, I have to parent each of my kids differently because they're different. And if I parented them all the same, I would fail. Yeah. It just doesn't work. I just heard a great comedian say that he was up on stage and he asked all the audience that they had kids, if they had babysitters, and how many of them had actually chose a man. Not because you're, you didn't choose a female to babysit your kids, not because you're sexist, because you're smart. Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, here's the deal.  It's going to be a white guy too. It's good.  It's true. It's actually true. Yeah, every time you talk to that. I can't disagree with boys to shoot. I'll be reading certain things. I'll be like, that's a white guy. I was like, there's no black guy that's doing that.  He went skydiving without a parachute. Looking for bigfoot. Yeah. Every time. That's a white dude. I mean, but they exist for a reason. One of the easiest examples of what the reason would be is, men are expendable.  So we just evolved this way. But I think it's important to differentiate general differences, but then also there's individuals. So it doesn't mean that you can't be a man and be interested in the things that women generally are and vice versa. It just means that generally speaking, men tend to do these things and tend to like things and women tend to like these things. And if we're going to understand each other, one of the worst ways to understand each other is deny that. One of the most effective things I've learned to help me communicate with my wife, for example, was understanding some of those differences. I can't talk to my wife like she's a guy. She comes to me with a problem. She doesn't want me to solve it for her right away. Now, Adam comes to me with a problem. I know why he's coming to me. He's like, give me some ideas, bro. What do I need to do? She just wants me to listen to her. Generally speaking, I read this that women generally, they just want you to kind of hear them, whereas men just kind of want the answers. When I read that, I went and communicated that way and it was amazing. Had I been like one of these people that's like, no, we're all the same, that would have caused problems. And it's also funny because women don't like being treated like men. Yeah. Right? So for all this thing of like, here's another thing. I'm a fan of treating people fairly. I don't think treating people everybody equally even makes sense, right? Because no one actually does that, right? You don't treat your own family and children and friends the same way you treat strangers. That would be very weird, right? But I believe you can treat everyone fairly, right? But I think it's interesting because, yeah, people will say all that. But if you actually talk to a woman in the exact same way you talk to like a guy friend, like they don't like it. They don't like it. So there's always going to be a, I just think it's, I think we're problematizing a lot of things that just aren't problems, right? Sometimes even, sometimes I do spots on TV or certain interviews or whatever. And I come back up and I'm like, what problem are we actually trying to solve here? Right? Because you get lost in all these weeds and whatever. And I'm like, well, what's the actual, what's the problem? So say, for example, we were talking about like the gender thing or whatever. So someone will be, oh, you know, I don't know the stat. 20% of CEOs of the big companies or what? Only 20% of the CEOs are female, whatever. We need to, and people go into all these things. How can this be addressed? How can it be fixed? I'm like, so what's wrong with that? What's the problem? If 80% of CEOs are male and 20% are female, what is fundamentally the issue there? Right. Like, why is that bad? Why is that a problem? And people can't answer that because they just see the disparity in their life. I'm like, well, you know, 99% of construction workers are male, 99% of sanitation workers and lumberjacks and people under the sewers and all. It's all men doing all these crappy jobs that crab fishing, all these jobs that no one, like no one would want to do. And it would sound nutty to be like, oh, we need to get 50% female representation in these things. And no one ever says that. But then on these other types of things, it's like, oh, we need this, we need that. And I'm just like, what are you trying to solve? Do you think we've glamorized just how much money you make to the point where that now is how we look at value and we've undervalued things like raising your kids or being maternal or those types of things that we tend to, we used to say we're feminine.  You should be making a lot of money because that's way more valuable. I think that's crazy. Do you think there's a problem? I think that's a massive problem. And I think it's quite pathological, in fact. I think that it's so interesting how these conversations are framed. So for example, coming back to the gender pay gap thing. What about the gender time gap? What about how much actual free time you have? What about how much time? Most fathers wish they had more time with their children and with their family. So you could easily spin this thing on its head. So they're all, the men are making more, men are making more. You're measuring everything by money. But it's like, OK, well, time is more valuable than money. And if you disagree with that statement, consider if you'd swap places with an 80-year-old billionaire. Right?  Absolutely no, you would not. Because time is actually more valuable than money. Health is more valuable than money as well. So you could easily say, oh, if I were being ridiculous, I could come up with some whole thesis of how men are oppressed by society and by the matriarchy because they don't get to spend as much time with their families and children because they're just these beasts of burden who are just out there and working, and they're more expendable. They're dying and all these wars and whatever. You could easily spin it and come up with a frame that, oh, actually, it's men who are oppressed in society. But I just recognize it as, look, human beings in general, we all have our challenges. And life is going to throw challenges. There are challenges that are somewhat unique or totally unique to each sex. That does exist. But I didn't make it that way. It's just that biology is biology. None of us are ever going to have a period or get pregnant or give birth or breath speed. We are somewhat detached from that. We can do our best to empathize and try to understand what that must be like. But we're never going to get it, and we're never going to experience it. So those are some of the unique things that that's like, that's just the female, the beauty and the struggle. Right? Like, that's the superpower. Something that life comes from women. Like, that's amazing. Everyone on earth was birthed from a woman. Incredible. Mothers are amazing. That's incredible. Men also have our own unique challenges and burdens that women are never going to totally, totally get. Right? Some of the duties that we just have and some of the pressure on you to perform in your career and to make money and to be able to provide resources and protect them, all that stuff to the degree as a man. Like, that's a unique, that's unique to men. Right? Historically, whether it's hunting or it's fighting or it's whatever, that's pretty much male domain. Women don't really need to think about that or worry about it. Even, you know, I talked about this the other day on a podcast. I mean, a decent looking woman, even a not so decent looking one, live her entire life and never even need to approach. Like, ask someone on a date or approach someone they're attracted to. As a man, like, if you don't do anything, nothing, nothing happens.  You can't just stand, I'm just going to go to a bar and sit there and look pretty. Right? It doesn't, it doesn't work. So there's just these differences and that's just, that's fine. These aren't things I'm trying to fix.  We need to fix this and we need to fix that and fix that. It's just like, no, that's just, that's just how it is.  Like, if you see a problem with this potentially in the future, I think the stats on on tender sales, which you are like 80% of the men get 20% of the women in there. No, no, no. 20% of the men. Or excuse me. 20% of the men get 80% Sounds accurate. Yeah. And do you foresee that as a potential problem?  So we're now actually doing that unintentionally through this new technology. Do you see where that could potentially lead? Yeah, it's funny because it's just cycles. As I said before, where human nature doesn't change, right? We just got the technology has now enabled.  And then, you know, lower class men are just kind of there struggling or, you know, not getting or whatever. And we've just kind of come back full circle again in a slightly different, slightly different. It's wild when you think of it like that, actually. I mean, that we really are coming back to like the same way. So what does it lead to, I guess, is the question is like. Yeah, I think in the long term, I don't, it's not positive. It's not positive.  It's not by accident that every country and culture decided that marriage and raising children within that, you know, monogamous structure is ideal. Right? I mean, you don't think in all the thousands and thousands of years, people haven't tried this in all sorts of different ways. Evolution of ideas. For me to say, yeah, people have tried all sorts of different things. And the one that's like, okay, the one that works and is stable and keeps society functioning and generally keeps people happy is, okay, one man, one woman, couple up, family, cool. That's the unit. That's the basis of society. And again, in our chronological snobbery, again, people are like, nah, I've got a better idea. We can do better. Yeah, like we can do this whole thing better. I love when people are like, we're so evolved because we do it this way. I was like, you're not evolved. They was tried a long time ago. Yeah. And do you know what's so interesting is that you can see how these things actually play out. So it's one thing to be theoretical with ideas and think, okay, well, we could try that or that might work or that might work. And if you actually, even with how people themselves would pull themselves, you actually find that the happy, people who are, let me not even use the word happy, people who are genuinely like joyful and content, for the most part, of course, there's always exceptions, right? But for the most part, they tend to follow a more traditional path, right? Even with all the challenges and struggles and whatever that- The data shows it. That come with it. Yeah, those people do tend to be long-term, they're happy, they're more stable, they're less likely to get lost in drugs or alcoholism and vices. Married people with children who are religious. And look at the data, they live longer, they're happier, they tend to be sick less, they tend to do better. And that's the person that were demonizing. You mentioned Psyops a few times.  I mean, I could tell you there were two for me. The second one was what really made me go, okay, this is weird. The first one was watching transgender women fight women. When I saw that and I was like, okay, this is crazy. Everybody who's watching this has got to know that this is crazy. The second one was during the pandemic. We had, this was one newscast, it was the same newscast. They were literally hammering you in the newscast, like all of the newscasts were at the time, to stay indoors, stay six feet away, don't spread the virus, you can get everybody sick, switch over to the George Floyd protest. Tens of thousands of people packed together, yelling and spitting on each other, and they're like, oh, this is great. This is wonderful. And then they say this literally in the newscast, this is in no way contributing to the spread of the virus. Because they're all vaccinated. And I thought, no, this was before the vaccine even existed.   This is now I know for sure. Man, I mean, not really. I've been how I am for a really long time. He's been ice-winding for a long time. Yeah, like, I've been how I am for a really long time. There's certain, what happens is, things more tend to confirm what I already, so if I'm already, like, so, okay, take the whole, what I call this, pandemic. Going back to February 2020, from the very beginning, February March, I was like, this is weird, this is not adding up. This isn't, there were, I had lots of alarm bells, right? And then when they started the whole two weeks to slow the spread, you know, 15 days, I was like, there's no way on earth this is going to be two weeks if people give this in, people are going to be stuck for months, if not years. But a lot of stuff wasn't making sense to me right off the bat. And then as it progressed, all that happened was those suspicions were confirmed, right? So you get to the summer of 2020. They didn't just say that the BLM protests and riots didn't increase the spread. They claimed they reduced it. So they claim that the Trump rallies and the anti-lockdown rallies were super spreaders, but the BLM protests reduced the spread. Like that makes like the restaurant logic. That's right up there with the restaurant logic, like here you can get COVID, but not here. Yeah, so there was that. And then remember at the early stages, they say, you know, don't wear masks, like masks, you know, it's pointless, whatever.  And then like, there were so many things and they never explained them. It wasn't like, okay, this change in narrative is because of this reason. They just kept going. Right, they just kept going and they kept switching it up and switching it up. And you know, it's been a very weird time. But you know, I think one thing that's always, that's made me question authority more is actually going to boarding school from the age of 11. Because I typically, I generally enjoyed boarding school. One thing I really didn't like was rules that were rules just for the sake of it. Yeah. I have no problem with rules. I have no problem with legitimate authority. But rules should make sense and be explainable, right? If a rule exists just because it's the rule, then... It should be logical. Yeah, I have an issue with that. So let me give you an example. So in the first boarding school I went to, this one, I was 11, 12 years old. The first and last five minutes of every email had to be in silence.  First and last five minutes had to be in silence. Interesting. Why? Because that's the rule. Right? Because they said so. Because they said so. Not because, if they even give me a bad reason, right? Give me something that doesn't... Improves digestive process. Give me something that doesn't even make... But it was just like, that's the rule. And there were multiple things like that where it was just like, that's the rule. And if you don't follow it, you get punished. It's not logical. You get in trouble for it. It's just a power grab.  Or you always get in trouble? No, I was, I had one, two detentions in seven years. Okay. No, I was very, I was very non-problematic person. Put kid but questioned it inside.  Yeah, just like, this doesn't make sense. And you know, and to my parents' credit, that's one thing, they did so many good things. But they never had rules that didn't make sense or have a reason, right? So I feel like when I grew up, I had very clear sort of lines and boundaries on certain things in terms of what's right and what's wrong. That was very clear. But outside of that, I'm glad my parents didn't just like, give us tons of random rules to follow without a reason for it. There's a human behavior reason for that. They'll do that. They do that in the military for certain things because it primes you to just listen. Yes. So they'll give you rules that make no sense, follow it anyway because you're more likely to follow everything else that they say. Yeah. And that's not maybe in the military.  I understand that. But in day-to-day life, I would actually argue that's incredibly dangerous. Totally.  Listen, you can make that same argument for that's not good for military. Because if the wrong person in power directs that military to go in a direction that is immoral or not good, that's so it could be just as dangerous in that situation. Yeah, authority, if an authority is corrupt and they have that level of compliance, then it's extraordinarily dangerous. That's Hitler. Yeah, look at the Nazis, look at communism, look at any sort of fascist or hyper-authoritarian. Like I said, that's just people just following orders. You see it with police, right? I was in Australia last year for, I went there for a month in September or October after you guys saw the craziness that they went through. And it was interesting talking to people there, especially in Melbourne in the state of Victoria where they had over 500 days of lockdowns. Police were out there on the street fighting people. I met people who'd been shot by rubber bullets by police. I met people who'd been arrested for protesting. Crazy. All this kind of crazy stuff. Because they went even further with it all. And I also met a police officer who'd actually resigned from her job because she was just like, I can't do this, right? What they're commanding me to do to the people I'm supposed to be protecting, she's just like, this is wrong. This is not right. This is not why I decided to be a police officer so I can go out and fight protesters who are just protesting to be allowed outside. But yeah, I think these are things we, you always have to be cautious and vigilant of. That authoritarian urge and that I'm just following orders type of thing. I think with authority, authority should always be able to question authority.  I think there should be an answer for that, right? It shouldn't just be because I said so. Maybe if you're talking to a two-year-old and they can't, they're not gonna understand something, then that's one thing. But certainly, especially as people get older, you need to give people reasons for why things are like that. Well, I think two comments on that. One is I really think that the pandemic gave these people and when I say these people, I mean, people who just want to rule half power or corrupt, I think it gave them a wonderful test period to see how far they could go. Mm-hmm. How far can we push? How, until people say this is crazy, and if they do say it's crazy, how far can we push until people actually do something about it? And I think that they were even surprised how far, how they could say one thing and say another thing in the same day and nobody would say anything.  Does something like the Second Amendment here in the US make sense now that you know all these things? That's the one thing that we have here in the US that's quite unique to the rest of the world, probably the most ridiculed. If you go to any European country or anywhere else, the one thing that they'll think is crazy is how Americans can own guns as freely as we do, you're from the UK. Does it seem as crazy to you now or does it make, does it make kind of sense? It never seemed crazy to me. I've been a 2A supporter since I was a teenager. No, I've always understood the 2A. And I think the 2A is more important than most Americans even realize because I don't think it's just important for America and Americans. I think it's important for the globe. I think the USA's Second Amendment is a check against global tyranny, not just America, not just tyranny within this country, but globally. And I don't think most Americans recognize that it's actually, that it's that deep. And I also think it's funny, just look at the past century in Europe, the idea that Europeans can't understand how a government could potentially become tyrannical. That's crazy. You think if there's somewhere in the world where they would understand that, it would be in Europe. I don't think it's by accident that the USA has never had a dictator come to power or anything even close to it. The 2A is a permanent check on that. I think that the fact that certain states, certain red states, your Texases, your Florida's, your Tennessee's, I don't know, didn't go as far with some of the C-19 nonsense, I think is in part due to the Second Amendment and such high levels of gun ownership. I think they realize we can't push people past a certain level, as you were alluding to earlier, whereas in many other parts of the world, it's like, well, what are they gonna do about it? We can just roll over on them. And I think that here's something that's tricky. I believe that because most people are decent and or at least strive to be, I think it's incredibly difficult for the vast majority of people to understand that a person or a group of people can be genuinely evil. It could be genuinely wrong. We always wanna make excuses for them. There's always that, they would never do that. Yeah, on different levels, whether this is governmental and state actors or this is even individuals, a serial killer. A normal person or someone who goes and wants to shoot up a school or a mall or something. We always wanna think, oh, there's either it's mental health or this thing where we're trying to find something that fits our normal, sane, non-psychopathic framework as to why someone would do something that heinous. And the answer, sometimes people do evil things. Sometimes the answer is that person is evil. That's why they did it. And that answer doesn't sit well with most people because you're like, no, no, there's gotta be some other thing. And there's gotta be some law we could pass. Yeah, but I'm like, yo, you gotta recognize even with some of the people in power, I'm like, yo, you're not dealing with, not saying everyone in power is some type of psychopath at all, but there are genuinely bad people in certain positions who genuinely do not give a crap about humanity. Like they do not care about you. It'd be interesting to actually see the statistics around people that seek powerful positions like that. Like they're true underlining motives. I wouldn't make the case that you're gonna get a higher rate of that type of sociopathic. There's a bias, they're guaranteed. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's been said before, anyone who wants to be, I don't know, president or prime minister or whatever, like the fact that you even desire that type of power should probably disqualify you from the position because most people don't actually want to have that type of power and authority over others. Somebody would lust for it especially. Yeah, I mean, why would you be for decades like that's what you really, really want? Like to me, that's weird. I wanted to ask you this because you've been working out for a long time, you lift weights, you're quite fit. What role do you think fitness has played in some of the ways that you think? And do you think that they're attacking fitness because of how it might affect the way somebody thinks or how maybe empowered that makes them feel? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that something that's really been under attack in I'd say the modern West in recent years, especially in this past decade, are the notions of personal responsibility and accountability. I think those things have been really under attack and something interesting I've noticed is that most people who speak on those issues to encourage people to get out of the victim narrative and blaming other people and blaming systems and whatever and put the onus on the individual, those people tend to be attacked. So however you frame that message, it's something that certain elements want to reject or push away from. That shouldn't really be surprising. I think the reason why personal responsibility is considered controversial or why people reject it is fairly simple. It's kind of like removing someone's alibi. If you tell somebody, let's just talk about health, for example. Say you're talking about your body, your physique, whether you're at a healthy body weight or you're overweight or you're obese or whatever it is, people would rather that it's not their responsibility and that they're just the results of social forces, the advertising industry, the food industry, genetics, this, that. That's a lot more comfortable but disempowering than saying, you know what, it's up to me what my body looks like for the most part. No, we can't change our facial structures or whatever but my actual physique and my general health and well-being, that's up to me. I choose what I eat. No one else is feeding me. I choose whether I exercise or I don't or what I do in the gym or not. So I'm a big fan of responsibility and accountability, not just because that's what moves the needle but actually it's empowering. Once you get over your feelings and emotions and all that kind of stuff and it's just like actually that's really positive. That means that I can move. I'm the one steering my own ship. I'm not just a leaf that's blowing around in the wind wherever society and culture goes. I've got control of that. So one reason I love the gym and strength training and working out and have loved it for such a long time isn't just because of the physical benefits. Also, of course, there's cognitive and mental benefits but it's also because number one, it's all on you. It's not even like a team sport where you could play the best game of basketball ever, the best game of football, whatever, but if the other team is better than you lose. Every time you go in the gym, the weights weigh the same. 45 pound plate is a 45 pound plate. The bars weigh the same every time.  It's objective and if you get stronger, you get stronger and you're completely in control of it. So on one hand, that's kind of scary, but on the other, it's like, well, if you take that and you apply that same concept to your business life, your personal life, your relationships, your career, all of that stuff, then number one, you're going to be more successful, but I'd also say you're going to be happier and you're going to be more content. And you can also own, sure, you take your L's, but you also can take credit for your wins, your victories. You can be proud of yourself, hey, I built this thing. I created this. It wasn't just like, oh, I got lucky or whatever, something goes wrong, you own it and be like, yeah, cool, I made a mistake, I made an error. And you can pick which path you want. You can take the path of, all right, I'm never going to accept any type of responsibility or accountability. I'm just a victim. Everything else is the fault of the patriarchy and white supremacy and fat phobia and this and this.   I'm an adult. I'm responsible for where I end up in life. We don't choose where we, we certainly don't choose where we start, right? Like the cards you get dealt, we don't know. We don't pick your parents. You don't pick what year you're born in. You don't pick- Your country. You don't pick your country. There's tons of stuff we don't have control over. I would argue though that in the mod, if you live in the modern day West, I would largely argue that with some, of course there's exceptions and caveats, but generally where you end up is up to you. You won the lottery if you were born in the West for the most part. If you compare yourself to the rest of the world. I agree. I would argue, I always make this argument that fitness is one of the most powerful, yet most unassuming vehicles for personal growth because you don't know you're necessarily on a vehicle for personal growth. You think I'm just going to get fit or I just want bigger arms, but then along the way you learn like self-acceptance. Like I don't know, you've been doing this for a long time, but I'm sure at one point you realized you're not going to look like your favorite athlete or bodybuilder, like I remember as a kid, I realized I'm not going to look like Arnold no matter what I do, but then I just accepted it and I just kept going anyway. Like that's a huge life lesson. So it's not just about being empowered to change things for yourself. It's also accepting what you can't change. And that was a huge lesson for me as a kid. So now in the real world, I can look at a situation and I can see I have some control over this or I don't and if I don't accept it. Otherwise we're going to be, life is going to suck. We can make this torturous or we can make this feel a lot better. So that's what I think about fitness. And I think it is funny how they're painting fitness now. For example, there were some articles talking about how gyms are fat phobic and terrible places. The most accepting places on earth for anybody who's overweight is the gym. You've been in gyms for a long time. You've been working out for a long time. Tell me it's not the most accepting place for your sexuality, race, weight, gender. Like you're in there lifting weights. You're working out next to someone who's working out lifting weights. They could be 80. They could be 12. They could be obese. They could be male, female, gay, whatever. You don't care. We're working out in the gym. Yeah. And everyone's trying to better themselves. I mean, that's actually the most amazing thing about a gym environment is everyone is literally in there because you are trying to better yourself. And any decent person is never going to knock or take shots at or insult someone who is genuinely striving to make themselves better. There's a huge difference between someone who weighs 600 pounds and is making every excuse under the book and blaming everyone but themselves on their thing and isn't eating trash and not even exercising or whatever versus someone who weighs that same amount and they're trying to get their diet in order and they've taken responsibility and they're putting in the effort to get better. Right? Those are completely on the surface. Those people may look similar, but they're completely different. And here's another thing about it's impossible. It's impossible to significantly, at least naturally, to improve your physique and fitness for the better without also improving your mindset. It's impossible. They're hand in hand. They're hand in hand. If someone has lost 100 pounds, it's not just their body that's changed. No, they grew as a person. Their mind has changed. And it has to because you can't lose 100 pounds unless for a significant amount of time, consistently, you apply certain principles, discipline, perseverance, overcoming obstacles, consistency. All of the things, all the social challenges, all the physical and mental challenges that you have to go through to lose that 100 pounds, that's a lot of body weight to lose, man. Some people have lost 200, 300 pounds.  Same, if someone has gained, if a dude has gone from skinny to jacked, right, especially if they've done it naturally, you can't do that without becoming a better person. You have to. And all those ideas, all the lessons you learn from the gym, all those same things you apply, if you apply them to anything else, if you apply them to your relationships, if you apply them to your podcast, if you apply them to business, whatever, then it works. So it's such a great way of just teaching those principles that you can then take in other areas of your life and you just apply it in the same areas and you will get some degree, you'll get some degree of success. This is why I used to love training kids and I used to love training really old people, the really old people because they were so wise. So when I'd train them, I would ask them questions and I would just get all this great wisdom. And kids, because I would see in real time their growth and kids just, they're just primed to change and grow faster than adults. So I'd have, I'll never forget this, I had this one kid that I trained, he was 13, super insecure, almost in tears when his dad hired me because he went swimming with his friends, I didn't want to take off his shirt. So we started training together and through that process, he became this confident young man and they started dating this girl, became a trainer, eventually became a trainer and it totally changed his life. And it wasn't, and I didn't, it was like, I'm not coaching him on that stuff. All I did was, hey, last week you did two push ups. This week you just did three. Do you know what that means? And he'd look at me like, no, what does that mean? Like, you're not the same person.  He's like, I am not the same person. Like look what I can do, I can put work and change. And then the self-acceptance part, this is why it's so important, this whole body acceptance thing is baloney, or at least the way it's been twisted. Yes. Real self-acceptance, like when you do this long enough, like you have to do a lot of acceptance. Like, you know, I work out, I do pretty well at it, but I got to accept that I get older. I'm not gonna be as strong as I was when I was 30. In 20 years from now, I'm not gonna be as strong as I am now. If I want to keep doing it, I better accept the fact that I'm getting older and I better modify what I'm doing and change it according to my lifestyle. So, to me, part, this is one of the reasons why I was so surprising that this strange parasitic mindset was trying to infiltrate the fitness space, because I remember thinking to myself, all this is gonna do is prevent people who don't understand from starting. But everybody who's been doing it, you can't touch us. You cannot go to somebody who's been working out for 20 years. It's an incubator for self-improvement and growth, so of course they're gonna take it. I think it goes back to what we said earlier, is just that I think we got to a point where the education system has influenced these kids at such a young age that they come out and they're looking for it. Even though they haven't even opened their eyes and realized, oh my god, we're in this amazing time, but they've been educated to look through that lens.  There's gotta be some sort of sexism. There's gotta be something going on here. Let me find it. I call that problematizing, right? Problematizing, looking at everything through the lens of trying to find out what's the problem, what's the disparity, what's the discrimination, what's the, let's problematize everything. And that's where they get these really goofy articles from, right? So when you see these articles of like, the dangerous rise of far-right exercise or the white supremacist roots of bodybuilding or whatever, these goofy ideas, that's what it comes from. It's people problematizing, right? You're looking at a situation that's completely fine and you're trying to be like, okay, there's gotta be a problem here. So let me, even if I gotta scrape the barrel, let's find out what it is. You know what's funny about that?  This is where the KKK literally was part of the Democrat Party.  The founder of Planned Parenthood was Eugenicist, who literally thought it would be great if we could wipe out minorities, because in her idea, they were not as good. And the reason why they don't, by the way, that doesn't mean that the Democrat Party today is racist. That doesn't mean today that Planned Parenthood is Eugenics, although some people still argue that. I would say they are, but. Some people, and we'll get to that. Some people still argue that. It just points that they will pick and choose how they can use propaganda, and it never gets reflected back.  This is how you know they're not being genuine. That's also how you know they're both on the same team, too, though. That they both are just taking turns on who's the evil one on this side, and behind doors we're on the same side, and it's really about dividing and conquering. That's my opinion. Okay, so you said, this doesn't mean Planned Parenthood is still practicing Eugenics or whatever. You said, I'd argue that. What do you mean by that? Well, first of all, I would say that Eugenics is, wow, we're going here. Okay. So firstly, Eugenics is not gone anywhere. This is the reality of it. No sane person in 2023 would consider themselves a Eugenicist, and would have a natural adversion to that term being used. But the truth is that modern Western countries all have Eugenic policies, and that millions of people in our countries support Eugenics, even if they don't call it that. How do you mean explain? Give you some examples. Give you some examples, okay. Why is there no Down syndrome in Iceland or Denmark? How did they eliminate Down syndrome? No, that's true. How did they do it? No, they aborted. They aborted 100% of babies to Down syndrome. Okay. In the UK, the typical abortion limit is 24 weeks, which is extraordinarily late. There's no limit if there is any type of disability. That disability could be as light as a cleft palate, a cleft lip, right? So if it's determined a baby has a cleft lip in the 34th week, totally legal and fine to abort that child, completely, fully viable for 34 weeks, that child could live and survive. Cleft lip, hardly the most severe thing. Very solvable. Yeah, I mean, by definition, that's Eugenics, right? By definition, even if someone doesn't want to call it that, they might call it a woman's right to choose, or reproductive freedom, or reproductive justice. Relabeled. They'll relabel it, but that's Eugenics. That's literally what it is. I mean, yeah, and people might shy away from that word, but yeah, that's just the reality of it. And then if you're talking like Planned Parenthood, I mean, they still push their, obviously, majority of them, I believe, are still located primarily in minority communities. They're always pushing the propaganda. Of course, they do it under the frame of abortion being some type of freedom for quote unquote, women of color hate that term.  But ultimately, I mean, that's the greatest killer of black people in the country by far. There's places where there's more black babies aborted than born in every given year, which is horrendous.  I mean, that's an awful statistic. So you're pro-choice, but you're... No, I'm not. I'm pro-life. I'm out for full transparency. I'm very strongly pro-life. But I'm saying even for someone who would consider themselves pro-choice, I think most people would still consider more black babies being aborted than being born year on year in a location is not good. Like, that's a concern. Yeah, like, there's an upstream problem there, like what's going on. And then even if you look at the numbers, I mean, the... I'm not American, but I know that the black American population, you know, sort of should be higher than it is. But it's essentially been stemmed and cut as a result of these policies. And then things are being pushed. You know, there's a lot of propaganda when it comes to this particular issue, crazy amounts of profits. Might be one of the most propagandized issues in the world. And so I think that, yeah, over the decades, people have been pushed and pushed to see this through a certain lens, a simple lens of, you know, a woman's issue rather than a human issue, you know, not a life-and-death issue, but, you know, just something about, you know, freedom or liberty or medical choices or justice or anything like that. And it's not. And if you get to the nuts and bolts of it, then, you know, when you have that real discussion, then I find that people tend to shift more in the pro-life direction once they actually have the information and they really, really think about it beyond the buzzwords and the euphemisms. I think it's Andrew Schultz, he's a comedian. He does this bit, which is hilarious.  And so like everybody first they cheer and afterwards they're like, ah! And I think you can be objective. You could be pro-choice, but you can also say, well, yeah, we're definitely killing a human or the potential for a human. I do think that if we were to reach our pinnacle of peace and prosperity and, you know, our potential, we would value human life so much that even the potential for human life or if you want to consider that, the potential would be totally cherished. I'd say it's a human life with potential, not a potential human life. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. But I do think that it's very complicated in the sense that there's a strong market demand. And what would we do? Because I think the black market for that would be so terrible and dangerous, especially now, with the demand being so high. It's such a complicated issue. I think, you know, I'm kind of glad you brought that up because the truth is, I think the real adult conversation of this can kind of happen. It can happen on multiple levels, but I think that by the time you're talking about the issue of abortion, something has already gone wrong upstream. Right? Something's already gone very wrong upstream. Again, on an individual level and on a general level. Right? You're talking about market demand. Yeah. Right? So if there's a demand for how many abortions are in the USA every year, I think it's between 700,000 and a million per year. Right? What is going on upstream socially and culturally where that is the situation? Right? And it's the, again, it's increased secularization. It's promotion of promiscuity. It's certain social cultural ideas that have been pushed so hard over the decades. Because look, let's be real. We all know where babies come from. Right? We're not living in some dark ages where it's like, okay, we don't know. Oh, do women just sort of randomly get pregnant? It's like, look, we know. We know what happened. Yes. Right. Like there's something upstream that's happened. Logistics. Right? You know, we have access to, I believe there's over 40 different forms of birth control and contraception. There's not getting pregnant or not getting someone pregnant is not, it's not rocket science. Right? Like we know how these things work. We know how they can be prevented in ways without, you know, massive ethical issues and so on. Yet people are acting as if that's not the case. Again, it's the denial of responsibility and accountability. And I would say that the attitude, this modern approach towards abortion is kind of like the ultimate example of this outright denial of responsibility and accountability. It's just like, okay, well, even if it means killing the most innocent, you know, member of our species, let's, you know, let's just hide it under the rug. Right? Just hide it under the rug. This thing has happened. And it's just, just get rid of it. Let's just, you know, just hide it away and use this euphemism and people are going to kind of think it's kind of think it's okay. And I think that's, I think that's gross. I'll be real with you guys. There's no, I think this particular issue is the greatest blight on modern society. I would go that far. I think this is the great, just like, you know, for all those thousands of years where, you know, I imagine that during, even during the days of slavery, right? Even here in the USA, like the USA was still like, you know, one of the most progressive and, you know, so-called liberal countries and so on, right? People at that time would have thought, like, cool, like, we're advanced, we've got great technology, but you just have this blight, right? You've still got people who are enslaved and working in fields and being discreet.  But then there's this kind of thing going on underneath and people don't really want to touch it or approach it because it's kind of, it's not very popular. I feel like abortion is very much that issue. It's not something like you sort of see or are conscious of day to day or whatever or really think about, but it's kind of just, you know, as I said, a million a year just in this country, a million a year, right? It's wild to me and it's the, there's, regardless of where you stand, the inconsistencies on one side are very strange. Like, if we sent a probe to Mars and found cells that were alive, we would come back and say there's life. We found life on Mars, okay? If a pregnant woman gets hit by a drunk driver. Double homicide. It's a double homicide. So this, it's very strange. There's no consistency with that. And that's the part that really trips me out. And this is part of why I'm pro-life because it's a coherent position, right? So we know that, look, everything is either alive, dead or inanimate, right? We know that a human baby in a womb is a human baby in a womb, right? Women post up their scans, you know, 12 weeks. No one's ever attended a fetus shower. No one's ever asked a pregnant woman how her fetus or blastocyst or embryo is doing. By the way, that's clear, that's clear political, like they change words and stuff. They change the words, right? You know, people ask when is the baby due? If a pregnant woman is drinking alcohol, people are like, ooh, that's bad. Why is it bad? Because it's harming the baby, right? So there's, people tend to be weirdly, the pro-life position is very consistent, right? It's consistent, it's simple. It's not complicated, it's, this is an innocent human life and it's morally wrong to intentionally terminate an innocent human life, regardless of the age, regardless of the size, regardless of the location. That's the position. So-called pro-choice arguments, there's like 100 different ones, right? Some people will deny the humanity, some people will say, okay, well, eight weeks, some people says 12 weeks, this person says 15, this person says 20, this person says 24. This person says any type, like it's not coherent because you have to keep moving the goalposts and using euphemisms in order to get around either the human part or the killing part. Yeah, I think we know inherently that's why. We know, and nobody wants to say I'm killing a human, I think we know and that's why we do it or that's why we accept the verbiage that comes at us politically, like fetus, like it's a right, it's, you know, I think that's why, and I think if we wanted to really, because it's very important, you can't have this conversation without talking about the root of some of these, and I think two things would make a big difference. I think one is, and this doesn't make any sense, actually makes sense to me when you think they want to keep this a wedge issue, but one, there's no reason why birth control shouldn't be available over the counter. There's no reason. You could be over the counter, pharmacist. No, you got to go to get a prescription. Okay. Should be over the counter. So a girl could go get birth control, shouldn't be a problem. That's one.  You can't go out and party, you can't do what you want. Everything's ruined. It's crazy to me. I have kids. It's hard. It's expensive. I wouldn't trade them for anything. Good. It's the most meaningful, amazing, purposeful thing I've ever done in my entire life, but we're not sold that.  It's over.  These children are oppressing you. I feel like if we valued having children the right way, like it used to be a man's glory was how many kids he had. Men would go, how many children do you have? Oh, I got 15 kids. Wow. Congrats. I feel like that plays a big role too. And not even long. We're not talking, we're talking a few decades of science. This is the crazy part, right? We're not talking about these attitudes. It was really the 60s from what I understand that like stuff really started to change. It's when we divorced sex from pregnancy with birth control where this started to happen. Exactly. And this has fallouts, you know? And I think the fact that we're even having this conversation, that's a fallout of those last few decades. It's a fallout of hookup culture. It's a fallout of the decline of marriage. It's a fallout of these narratives that are being pushed both to men and to women in terms of what your life should look like and what things are virtues and what things are vices and so on. It's like, I call it the inversion agenda, right? Everything just being flipped on its head. Everything being flipped on its head. But yeah, it's a sad issue. And I do think in the future, I do think that future humans will look back on this and look back on some of the attitudes in the way that we look back at slavery. I will go that far. I think people will look back and they'll look at the numbers and they'll look at the blasé attitudes or even some of the outright promotion of it. And they will be, they'll be gobsmacked. They'll be thinking, how did people just, you know... I also think too that there's a lot of hang-up with two specific issues with it in terms of incest and rape. And then that becomes... The driving factor. The driving factor. Which is also dishonest, right? Because people only use that type of argument on this particular issue, right? So even those cases, typically you're talking under 0.5%. Not even half a percent for those edge cases. But it would be like trying to argue that... If you're accepting the moral weight of the termination of a human life, I mean, for example, if you tried to argue that we can all think of situations where homicide is morally justifiable, right? As defending yourself. Yeah, someone's holding a gun to you or like pointing a gun at someone else and someone shoots them first, right? That's a homicide. No one would say... But then you wouldn't use the fact that justifiable homicide exists to justify homicide in general, right? You wouldn't go, okay, well, there's this 1% situation where morally and ethically that's neutral or fair. So therefore homicide in general is okay, right? Yeah. But that's kind of what people are doing with this situation where you go to the most fringe, most edge case. And really it's an appeal to emotion because most people will be like, okay, like... Rape is terrible. Incest is terrible. Yeah, exactly. But then they're like, okay, so that's why the whole thing needs to be... And it's like, well, no, that doesn't... That doesn't morally nor logically follow that because you can think of an exception case where maybe something has a different moral weight or could be potentially justified at least legally and then say, okay, so therefore it's across the board. So to me, that's just a... It's a dishonest framing. It's a dishonest argument. And I think it would be... Like I said, the things that are frustrating about the argument are the lack of consistency and just honesty among certain people, but then also the ignoring of the upstream conversation. Because if you really want to talk about this honestly, we need to talk about like approach to... We need to talk about sex and sexuality and people's behavior and decision-making. We need to talk about marriage. We need to talk about children and families. Yeah, it's a much bigger, more grown-up conversation. Yes, you can get lost in the weeds of the legality and the moral and the ethical arguments downstream, but I'm like, if we could take this up a level, then... And I would think that regardless of someone's actual view on the issue, most sane people would agree that... Like say someone who considers themselves pro-choice both morally and legally, for example. I think a sane person like that who would still want to reduce the number, right? They'd still be like, maybe they think it's a necessary evil quote-unquote, but they... Everybody agrees that it makes sense to figure out how to reduce this. Everybody used to. This is how deep the inversions got in. You now have people who are actually pro-abortion. That's a real position now, right? So that's really dark, right? To me, that's even like a separate category. Even though it's not my position, I can understand the kind of begrudging position of someone like, okay, well... Necessary evil. Maybe necessary evil, maybe first 10, 12 weeks. That's not my position, but I can understand that better when someone is just full-on like, any reason, any limit, whatever, or people who even say that it's pro-social or it's good because it keeps the population down or because it keeps... All that kind of... I'm like, we were talking before about eugenics. Right, I'm kind of like, dude, that's a... Population troll. That's like a... To me, that's like a very disturbing position. I mean, I've even had conversations with people who... And this logically does follow, right? Who think that, you know, infanticide is morally okay. Because it's... You know, because one of the pro-life positions would be obviously, well, what's the difference between within the womb or outside, right? Like, if someone's arguing that abortion's okay, say up until the point of birth, you know, I'd be like, well, it's the same... What's the difference between inside and out? And some people would take that and go, okay, yeah, there is no difference. So therefore, I also think that for the first six months of a child's newborn's life or whatever, I mean, this is the Peter Singer argument. I don't know if you're familiar with Peter Singer. It was crazy. But his argument is that I think for the first one to two years... Evil. He thinks that infanticide should be legal. And it's kind of like a logical follow-up from that position. Ironically, he himself has made some people pro-life because they're like... That's crazy. They're kind of like, he's right. He's right. But where that leads to is freaking... It's like, okay, so maybe... It's a dark night. Maybe those other people... Maybe they're making more sense because I don't really want to be siding with this. This whole population control thing, it's existed for a while in different belief systems, eugenics.  And you hear this a lot like, why would you have a kid in this crazy world and we have too many people?  And more people means we do better at that. And by the way, all the data and historical... This is a fact. The more people there are, the more things we figure out, the better off we tend to do. And we can also have... And a lot of countries are gonna have population collapse as a result of these strange beliefs.  Well, fact check me, but I mean, can't you fit the entire world population in the state of Texas? You can. That's just... Yeah, you can. It's crazy to me. It's a weird, crazy belief. It's like, why? Why are they doing this? Why are they telling us to not have kids to... That was too many people that it's...  When the opposite, even just for our standard of living, prosperity, innovation, that's not true. The opposite is actually true. And the fact that there's countries right now, modern societies, that are probably gonna collapse because they can no longer... They don't have enough people to... Japan. Japan is one of them. Italy isn't where my family's from. They're kind of screwed right now.  Now they're having to figure out how to reverse that. Why are we being told this? Wow. Okay. This is where I'm just gonna be hypothetical because I don't understand everyone's motives. Number one, there is a depopulation agenda. It's been in place for decades at this point. So, you've been spoken about pretty openly, especially since the 70s. I think there are... My intelligent assumption and inkling is that there are firstly, there are true believers. So, there are people who genuinely believe these sort of Malthusian arguments of it's not about space. It's answering your question to them. It's about resources. Resources. Right? So, in the past, I think it goes back to Thomas Malthus a couple centuries ago where he believed that if the global population passes, I don't know, two billion or something like that, then there's gonna be mass starvation because at the moment we only have this amount of food and this amount of clean water and so on. So, if the population outstrips that, you know, that's gonna lead to all these problems. That's imagining we never innovate, we never prevent anything when it comes to all these problems. Yeah, so I think there are the true believers. There are the people who genuinely, genuinely, truly believe that overpopulation, quote unquote, is a massive issue. It's gonna cause all these problems, and so we need to act now to stem this. I think there's the true believers. And I think they're wrong, but I don't think there's any sort of wickedness or malice in that. And then there are the people who, looping back around to what we said earlier, you know, there are people who I believe are genuinely anti-human, right? They're anti-human. They do not like, you know, maybe they like some individual people, but they're not generally pro-human.   People use that to refer to babies in the womb sometimes, a parasite. The humans are this sort of, by the way, a lot of people who do like mass bombings and mass shootings use the same type of language that human beings are these parasites and wicked creatures and, you know, the best thing for the nature and for the world and for other animals is to reduce, you know, reduce the number of these parasites in their terms. So I think those are the two sort of main lines of thinking. I think one of them is more, I think one of them is wrong, but more quote unquote benevolent in a way.  And I don't think that it's, sadly, I don't think that that type of thinking is as rare as I wish it was. When you really talk to some people, you can really see that they're not pro-human, right? They don't really, the type of people who even use terms like, I don't know, speachism, right? Kind of people who think that, okay, well, I've had arguments with people where they're like, well, what's so special about human beings? Right? Like, well, no, no, really, right? They're like, yeah, and I'm kind of like... How long do you want the list? Yeah, and maybe, maybe, maybe this is, again, maybe this is where complete godlessness sort of leads to. Because if you reach the final position that, you know, we are just advanced apes on this spinning planet, then, yeah, why would we have... Like, my argument about what makes human being so special if you go deep, ultimately, I'm going to have to come down to a religious argument, right? Which is that man is made in the image of God and we are uniquely set apart from all other animal species and plant species and so on. We are uniquely set apart and we have a soul and consciousness and so on. And we're made in God's image. Dogs, chickens, cats, monkeys, they're not made in God's image. This does not mean that they don't matter or they don't have value or we should just wipe them out. No, no, no, no. But human beings are uniquely distinct. But if you collapse all that and you don't believe any of it, then it's like, okay, well chimpanzees are equal to us. Dogs, cats, ants, mice, like they're all, they're all equal to us. And so I don't think there's even that much of an issue in wanting to, I don't know, protect or preserve animals or anything like that at all. But I think when you bring human beings down to the level of just being another animal, then that's, again, this is where you end up in this territory. This is where people start making, have you seen what's going on with euthanasia and Canada and some other countries?  Yeah, right, but this is where it goes because what happens if a dog is very sick or a dog, you put it down, right?  If human beings are just another animal, then what would be the argument against that? And I think because I think people don't think about these things that deeply and realize, okay, well, you hear a lot of people talk about slippery slope fallacies and it's like the slippery slope is not typically a fallacy. It's just seeing second, third, and fourth order consequences of things that are going on. If you make, by the way, this is one of my biggest concerns. This is my biggest concern with the whole push of transgenderism on children. My biggest concern is not most people's concerns because most people are only thinking first and second order. My biggest concern is that if you are saying that a 12, 13, 14 year old child can consent to something so drastic as a social, let alone medical transition, right? If a 13 year old girl is consent to getting a double mastectomy and having whatever, rendering herself infertile, going on hormone treatments, whatever it is because she wants to be a quote unquote different gender, then you are eliminating the concept of children not being able to consent. This is the greatest danger of the push for transgenderism on children. It's not just women's sports or changing rooms or this or that. You are obliterating a hard line that we have always had in society about consent.  Why can't children smoke? Why can't they drink?  Yeah, right. There's a lot of things we recognize, fundamentally, legally, ethically, morally, there's a distinction between adults. Can't they accept somebody old? Yeah, there's a distinction. Well, this is the problem, right? To me, it's a gateway to pedophilia. It's absolutely a gateway to it. And to some people, that's like, oh, well, that's a fallacy or what. And I'm like, no, it's not, because what would be the argument if you are saying that... And by the way, okay, why do we say that children can't consent to these things? Because the human brain and physical and emotional maturity is not developed enough at a young age in order to...  And one of the things with young people is they don't understand long-term, they struggle to understand long-term consequences, right? You have to get a lot older until you recognize, okay. We've all been there. Yeah, if I do. Exactly, right, teenagers, pre-teens, impulsive, you're not thinking long-term, which is why you have certain safeguards and things on that. So if you're saying, okay, at 12-year-olds, old or 13 or whatever, you're old enough to make a permanent... Think about this, you're actually, in many of these cases, you'd be rendering the person infertile for life. So you're saying that a 13-year-old is making a decision at 13 about if they ever want to naturally have children. If they want these permanent changes, like you wouldn't let them get a tattoo, right? Because you recognize that's... You don't understand the... You might think, okay, it's cool having this little logo or design on my arm.  But it's nutty. It's nutty. I just remembered, I was going to come back to you about something you'd be optimistic about. Now that we've gone right down, we've gone real deep. I didn't know we were going to go this deep on spot games. But... He's like, they're going to talk to me about bench presses. Talking about nutrition and how much protein. I think we've passed peak woke. I think we've passed the peak. I agree. And I don't think we've passed the peak of the stupidity and foolishness, but I think we've passed the peak of the tolerance for it explicitly and implicitly. More and more people on all levels are starting to see some of these problems and more importantly, speak out on them. Talking about these issues in 2017, 2018, 2019, like it was pretty lonely, right? It was kind of like, oh gosh, like why is no one else talking about this? Am I the crazy one? Whatever. You know, just like now, it's okay to sort of question the efficacy and safety of the C19 jabs. And it's okay to question the... Doing that two years ago... Yeah, there you go, right? Like it was, you know, you could do it, but it was like the tide, you passed a certain peak and the tide begins to turn and the Overton window opens. And perhaps this was due to the lockdowns because I think a lot of parents saw what their kids were learning with remote learning and certain things. You had the whole BLM fall out which woke a lot of people up to... Man, I remember. Dude, in 2020, when I spoke out against BLM, people wanted to freaking crucify me, man. Of all that, I've put out over 130,000 tweets. The one that caused... The only one that ever caused real problems for me in my personal life was my criticism of BLM. Now you saw early on when you saw them... Remember when we didn't post the Black Square? People's heads exploded. We refused to do that. So you saw that early on where you looked at it and you said, because I saw this, I saw this, I said, oh, these are opportunists. They're totally taking advantage of a situation. They're going to capitalize on it. And because all these... There's no real leader. And because all these corporations want to capitalize on this movement as well, they're going to virtue signal and they're going to promote this organization. And so I agree with the sentiment. I don't agree with the organization. And now we know. We look back. We look at the tax records. Yeah, well, this is what's interesting because I mean, I worked out this organization was a scam maybe back in 2017 or so because BLM's not new. I mean, like, it didn't just start in 2020. It started, I believe, in 2015, 2016, whenever I think after the Michael Brown shooting. So I had done... Like, I knew it was run... I've known for five years. I've known for five years that it's run by Marxist. What's right away is a run openly. Yeah, it's run by Marxist. They've got like all these agendas that have nothing to do with Black people. They're trying to overthrow capitalism and dismantle the nuclear family and all the things. Even the tagline versus what they promote, it's like, well, you know, the movement is really Black Lives Matter if killed by a white police officer in dubious circumstances during an election year. Right? Like, that's really the full... And it gets media. Yeah, like, that's really the full thing, right? The top 20 killers of Black people in America or worldwide, the police are not one of them. Okay, it's not even in the top 20. So if you had a movement called Black Lives Matter and you genuinely meant what it said on the tin, then let's talk about... Let's talk about heart disease. Let's talk about strokes. Let's talk about accidents. Let's talk about suicides. Let's talk about homicides, primarily, who are... Which are committed by other Black people on Black people. Let's talk about all the things. Let's take the top 10 things that kill Black people and let's make a movement around trying to... You're getting no money. ...reduce those things, right? Yeah, exactly. You're ideological.  Most people can't even name one, right? Yes, proportionate as a percentage of the population. It's disproportionately Black people and so on. But it's like, look, this thing is just a scam. It's a hijacking. And if you really wanted to talk about... Whether you want to talk about the police brutality or police violence issue or you wanted to talk about Black lives actually mattering and things that are killing Black people, and top of the line, actually abortion, then these would be very different conversations. And you wouldn't want to racialize the police brutality and police killing issue because the majority of people being killed by police in the USA, even in these unarmed situations and scenarios where it shouldn't be happened, are not Black people. So why are you limiting to that? Obviously, they're doing it for political reasons and to jack up people's emotions. But yeah, anyway, I worked this all out many years ago. So when I saw this reincarnation come up again in 2020, I was like, this thing's a scam. And people were like, oh my gosh, how dare you? Yeah, what kind of comments are you getting? Man, I don't even want to get into it too much because it was actually, it got too close to home. It got way too close to home. I've been vindicated now, obviously, because with all the tax filings and all the stuff that fell out, people now know, again. Some don't though. You don't say it's crazy how much that doesn't hit the mainstream. You have to kind of dig for that a little bit. Yeah, not everyone. But literally, summer 2020, when I came out and said that BLM is a scam, like people weren't really not with me, man. Now I can say it like two years later, you can say it and it's like, okay, you're now kind of quote unquote allowed to say that. One of the things I get a lot of flak from is just being early. I get a lot of flak. I was early on like the C19 stuff. I was early on the BLM stuff. Like sometimes I'll just say something that's on the trans stuff. I just kind of say things early and you receive a ton of flak for that and get called all sorts of names or whatever. And then one year, two years, three years down the line. You get vindicated. Yeah, you get vindicated and no one kind of recognizes that. I recognize that about you. I see you always one of the first people to speak out. A bit of a maverick. When it's very unpopular, say what you're going to say. At the very least, question. You do a good job of just questioning that. I appreciate, even if I were to disagree with you, by the way, I appreciate anybody who has the courage to do that. Because I mean, your business is built now around media. And we now know just how much control and power they have and how they can shut people off and kick them out. I'm sure you've got shadow band many times. Yeah, my account was throttled until Elon took over from probably 2019 until Elon took over. I wasn't shadow band, but my account was throttled, meaning that they just like remove followers. Yeah, they limit my follower growth. But I'll be honest, man, to me, it's not the thing I, the compliment I get most often wherever I am is actually people thanking me for my courage or bravery. And while it's sort of flattering in one way, I don't even consider myself like stupendously brave or courageous, because I just think the bar for that has fallen a lot, right? I'm like, bro, you speak the truth. You're so courageous. Yeah, I'm like, man, I'm just, I'm just talking about truth. Yeah, I'm trying to like, I'm just talking.  Like I'm just saying what I think on podcasts and on Twitter and on stage. And again, I don't think that anything I'm saying is, you know, whether people agree or disagree with various elements of it, you know, I don't think anything I'm saying is sort of that out there or, you know, some sort of crazy position or anything like that. But yeah, to me, it's an ethical and it's a moral duty. It's not, to me, it's like a compulsion. It's not something that I have to sort of motivate myself to do. It's like, I can't not, if I have a belief or a position on something, and I've really thought it through and I'm seeing, you know, like if I see the train of society and culture sort of speeding up ahead and I know that there's a knot in the railway line or there's something that's going to derail the train or it's heading towards a cliff, just like I'd feel compelled to say something, right? Not just keep quiet because while other people can't see the knot in the line. So let me just watch this accident happen in slow motion. I'm like, I feel a compulsion to get, hey, this is where we're heading. And if we're not careful, it was like with all the, all the, all the Rona stuff, right? With the lockdowns and the mandates and this and I was saying in 2020, early 2020 to mid 2020, what was going to happen, right? I was calling it saying like, look, if you accept this, this is going to eventually lead to people, you know, I saw the Vax mandate before the Vax was even. You recall the conspiracy theorists. I was talking about quote unquote, vaccine passports before the vaccine was even rolled out, right? And people are like, no, that's not going to happen, whatever.  If you, if you accept each of these steps, then you're eventually going to be in a position as a nation, as a society, where this thing is being mandated and now you're not in a position to fight back. And that's exactly how it played out. And, um, yeah, I could just, I could just see it coming. Do you know what's really scary is, could you imagine if it actually worked better? If what worked better? The vaccine. Imagine if actually the statistics that have rolled out for the last year actually were, were more favorable. It would justify it. Like that to me is what's really scary. I'll tell you what. It's like, we're almost lucky that all the stuff came out later, that look, it still spreads. Look, if you're at this age, it really doesn't.  It's all intense.  A lot of people have said that, or imagine if the virus was a lot worse, right? People say that it would have been better. You think so? Yes. Okay. Tell me how. Because you wouldn't, there wouldn't have needed. So some people are like, well, what if the virus had like a 10% kill rate instead of 0.2 or whatever it is, right? You wouldn't need any coercion. No, everybody would just, yeah. You wouldn't, you wouldn't need any coercion. If there were genuinely, genuinely, okay. Imagine if there was like, I don't know, airborne Ebola, right? Imagine if there was just something floating around outside. And if you get it, even as a young, healthy man, that's a good point. Like there's a 20, 30% It's easy t