And we're live. I'm super excited that you guys have joined me today. Thank you so much. This is what we're doing. We're dancing here behind the scenes. I have a special guest with me today. This is Michelle Hoffman and she's a two-time international best-selling author. And she's here with us today as a guest expert to answer some of your burning questions. And this is coming on the topic of, we've done a 12-part series over the last couple of weeks, well, the last 12 weeks about dealing with our stuff. And this goes along with individual homeowners and the house cleaners that are helping them with their homes. So joining us today, we've got lots of professional organizers. We've got people that are suffering or trying to deal with or work through issues of clutter. We have hoarders. We've got professional house cleaners. It's the whole group of folks today that are joining us. And I'm super excited because of our guest. Now I wanna stop for just a second. And I wanna say that this is a really sensitive subject. So I wanna give us a quick disclaimer at the top that I myself am a professional house cleaner 32 years. I am not a licensed therapist. And this does not replace any medical therapy or anything else that you're getting from your medical providers. So this is just us having a conversation and us trying to find some solutions that we can use today. I know, I love solutions. So I'm super excited that you guys have joined me and I'm gonna turn it now over to Michelle have her give us a quick introduction and then we've got lots of questions that are already coming in. So we wanna spend our time together with you today to talk about our relationship with ourselves, with our stuff and how that affects our relationships with other people. So please help me welcome Michelle Hoffman. Hello, thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here. I see we've got people from Pinehurst, North Carolina from Louisiana. And I also see that there are people here who are in the sandwich generation because you're dealing with relationships not only within yourself, within your home, within your family, within your community, within your professional life, but also that you're in that sandwich generation. So you're dealing with parent-child relationships where you're the parent, parent-child relationships where you're the child. I'm Michelle Hoffman. I am your relationship coach. I teach the art of relationshiping and I helped you find the right relationships to bring into your life. So that's a little bit about me and I can't wait to see how we can help increase the life and love and value of the relationships that you have in your life. One of the things that, thank you so much for joining us. I just, my heart is full that you've joined us today. One of the things that I can't get over is the situation of people who innocently enough stumbled on a bunch of stuff that came from, either they inherited it from a parent who's passed on or maybe it's a child that has moved away from home that they haven't really let go of yet. And they don't wanna get rid of any of this stuff because in doing so, it's a conversation that they have to have with themself. And in doing so, it means, I don't know, they've gotta deal with some difficult stuff. That difficult stuff, not just the physical stuff, it's causing them to trip up in other areas of their lives. And so they're not letting friends and family come over to the house, for example, because they're embarrassed because of all the extra stuff and the extra, what I'm just gonna call innocent clutter. So I wanna start about and talk about the relationships themselves because the relationships are all like domino effects. And when you have one and it gets out of whack, it kind of like tilts and then it starts knocking other stuff over. So can you share with us a little bit about that because I know from your personal experience, you went through a loss and yet you raised children, you were productive at work and you did a whole bunch of stuff that is demanded of a lot of other people that they do not know what to do. Well, there's no guide for this. You're totally right. And it's very hard to find the right guide for all of those types of scenarios that you've just presented. And now there is, there's you who's helping people understand what is our relationship with both physical things and connections that we have in our lives. And also the relationship that we have with ourselves. So what do we do with it? They say how we do one thing is how we do everything. And it's actually harder to live than it is to say that because if you are very successful professionally, you think I've got this and then you've identified with a successful professional and you may be doing a really amazing job at work. The role and identity that you take at work is very different than that which you have in your personal life. At work, there's a clear beginning, middle and end to your day, to projects. There's an overseer of some sort, whether it's a manager or even a client to top down or bottom up. That's going to be ensuring that your work is meeting expectations, otherwise they're gonna be supporting you and or we're not gonna make the numbers. So it's very, it's so much easier actually to be professional at work. It's, and I wouldn't say it's easy, it's a lot of effort but people who are successful professionally that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be successful personally.  One of the things that we saw during the pandemic was people that were really successful at work and they had a title and this is who I am at work. When they were issued the stay home mandates, they went home and they started looking around saying, wait a second, now how do I identify because I identified as wearing this suit every day and driving the nice car and impressing the people and boxing people around and being the super duper person that I was at work. And now at my own home, my family doesn't really appreciate me for who I am. And so they lost that identity and at the same time, while they were dealing with clutter and the insides of their homes and kids that they don't spend so much time around, all of a sudden now they're dealing with that loss of identity as well. That's absolutely key. So let's say that's the scenario and now you're at home and your identity at home, you feel a different role in your family structure than you did professionally. And we are neurobiologically designed to connect with others and to reach out and make those connections. But the role that we fill in our personal lives is a lot, it's a lot, there's a lot more room for vulnerability, let's say, because in the scenario that I just gave you at work, that's all very superficial, it's all very front long, front yard facade, because when you leave work, you can leave all of that there and then be your own self with your own thoughts and your own motivations and inspirations and still make all the numbers at work. But now we're talking about your personal life. So where's the guide, where's the inspiration, where's the motivation, where's the role model to help you understand all of the things you need and equally important, particularly in this conversation, the things that you don't need. So what's going to create space for you to feel safe? And I think safety, feeling calm and content and safe is really the topic of conversation here, being recognized for your accomplishments, who you are in the family and in your relationships. That's what we're talking about. If, go ahead. So my question then is, let's suppose that we are in an environment that is full of anxiety and stress, either self-created or it's created from outside elements like a relative has passed away and we inherited all their stuff or we've lost our identity because of work and here we are at home now and we don't feel safe. It's a mixture of anxiety and stress and literally just feeling frozen and not being able to cope. How do we learn to even recognize that in our situation? You actually asked about four different questions. I'm gonna see if I can pull them out. Yeah, one at a time, please. So the first one is, and we can talk about attachment styles and I will give you like the really high level understanding of this incredible theory of attachment styles. But essentially, if we're born into this world, we take in information through our senses. We understand the world around us based on our five senses, bringing in information through our, visually, through sound, through touch, through smell, through taste. And we take all of that data in and this started as soon as you started. So when you were born, wow, there's this huge transition in life and now you need to learn how to stay alive at a time when you're vulnerable and you can't take care of yourself as a newborn but you're born into a family or a community or a situation where there will be people who will care for the seven primary things you need taken care of when you first come into this world.  You take information in through your senses, you take that data, you compare it to things that have happened to you in the past, you use those experiences to decide what you would like the outcome to be or what your emotion is, for example, if you are taking information in through touch and you go, ooh, that's hot, your emotion is going to be, ouch, that hurt and the next time you get near the hot stove, you're not gonna touch it based on the experience that you had before so that you achieve the outcome you want. So that's how we take in information and we learn from that. Now you're born into this life, into this family, this amazing situation, but the seven things that you can't take care of for yourself initially, which include regulating your body temperatures, so not too hot, not too cold, making sure that your thirst is satisfied, if you're hungry, if you're tired, if you need stimulation, if you need love, or if you need help because you're hurt. Those are the seven things. Those are the same seven things that you learn how to work in your family or your situation to help get your needs cared for. Then we're hoping at some point in time, you learn to take care of those seven things yourself. So then you're learning to regulate on your own and with that, you then build self-trust and self-confidence that you can handle things that come your way because you know that you can return yourself to that homeostasis, that contentedness, that safe place, that happiness, whatever you wanna call it, where those seven things are taken care of so that you are open and able to take in information from the world around you and create the life that you would like for yourself. So as we grow, that gets a little bit tricky because there are so many dynamic interactions and emotions that come in with that. And while you're young, we learn attachment styles. Attachment styles, again, very simply, a secure, someone with a secure attachment style has an understanding and can give and take and is okay with somebody leaving, somebody coming in, they don't, they understand object permanence and it's a pretty balanced scenario. There's no right or wrong in any of these. It's how we learn to cope to get our needs met. An anxious attachment style will be someone and you will identify these people because they will make an effort to make sure that they are enough to gain that help, support and relationship that they desire. But it also can go a little bit to the point of, am I not enough for you? That creates an anxious situation because they will continue to say the right things and do the right things and anticipate what you might be thinking to ensure that the relationship stays stable and secure and they will reach out to do whatever is necessary, go above and beyond, these are givers, these are people who give too much. Then, so there, and the quick way to describe an anxious attachment is someone who feels anxiety and feels like they are not enough or they're being told they are not enough in a relationship. Somebody who is an avoidant attacher, they are somebody who maybe when they were little, they had a perception that their grownups or caretakers left and they didn't know if they were coming back or not. So at that point, they protected them so so that they could not be vulnerable. As we grow, an avoidant attacher will be somebody who is charismatic, attractive, sparkly object, interesting. And even in the best of relationships, like it'll be amazing, they will be very uncertain that they can feel vulnerable in the emotional connection in the relationship and they will break off even the best relationship so that they're protecting themselves. An anxious and an avoider are a perfect match for fireworks like that movie moment attraction. And what will ultimately happen is the fireworks will fizzle because the anxious attacher will say, am I not enough? And the avoidant will say, you are not enough. And so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The same thing is gonna hold true that security of what's vulnerable with us with the things that we have in our lives. What does this represent is what's so important and identifying the things we own, what kind of hold do they have on us? This is actually how I help people through grief being a widow when you can invite grief in or invite this emotion in, invite the feeling of I need to protect the fact that I've got too many things or my someone I loved is hoarding because I don't want anyone else to know about this vulnerability. And if you are protecting it so tightly, then it may have a hold on you. But if you can invite that in and identify what's valuable in it so it doesn't have a hold on you, it can help to move you forward. Thank you for sharing that with us because I find lots of people that are responding to us and just even in the chat room here that are frozen in the same exact situation where they've sabotaged their own relationships because they either were the attacher like you said with the one side or the other. And so that becomes really frustrating when even not knowing what you just explained to us, they're trying to figure out, how do I fit into this bigger scenario? And then what are the next steps? We've got a couple of people here. Maggie says, my mother was a hoarder but she didn't give me what I need and I have the same problem. Candace says, hello everyone, I'm struggling in this area. I do recognize my clutter is my cocoon and I've always been very sensitive. Right. And so we've got a couple of comments coming in right now that I mean, these are heartbreaking to me, but my clutter is driving me crazy. Everywhere I look there it is, it still is. There's not one flat surface that's not cluttered. How can I get past the paralysis? I've been like this my whole life. So what we're seeing right now and I wanna stop for just a second before I let Michelle continue because I wanna highlight the fact that you guys are not alone. This is not something you guys are experiencing alone. We're all here experiencing this together. And so one of the reasons we're having this conversation today and now that we know a little bit more about those relationships, I wanna encourage us to be willing, okay? This is the homework assignment for this week. I want us to be willing to take an honest look at ourselves and say, which side of that attachment am I? And am I okay admitting it? Because we can't work through it if we can't admit it. And if we can admit it and we are aware then we have choices. Right, right? So true and you are not as alone as you think you are. The other thing to that point is understanding that vulnerability, if you share your vulnerability in the right place in the right way, it will actually become a strength. But it is so counterintuitive to think that vulnerability could be a strength. And in the questions from the wonderful caring people who you had just brought up, these questions are just that. I care about the relationship I have with my mother. I've so much so that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Where else would you have had a role model to learn anything else? So really it's a matter of taking a moment and taking a breath and understanding what is out of your control within that what is in your control and then what is the first, next, best step to take? And if you want to do the, create tiny habits, a tiny step, if maybe I can only clean one tiny corner of the desk so that I can see one clean area even if it's putting everything else into another area then it's that one bit of inspiration that may help you get to step two. I'll never ask anyone for 180 degree turnaround. It's just going just outside your comfort zone and realizing that you are safe. And I love that. And I want to highlight one thing that Michelle just said and I hope you guys picked up on it because it was absolute gold. There's a gold nugget. If you don't have any pen and paper, grab one, write this down. She said make one tiny step. And she mentioned it in terms of clutter. And if what we're talking about today is relationships what if there was one tiny step that we could make towards repairing a broken relationship that has come about as a result either of our own insecurities or our connection to stuff that maybe something has become strange or it's not quite the way it needs to be. What if we took one tiny step towards that? And I'm talking really tiny it doesn't have to be big. What if you sent a text to that person that you've kind of estranged yourself from or you wanna be closer to but they're not talking to you for whatever reason and you just send them a quick text and you just say, hey I'm sending positive vibes your way. You don't have to ask any questions. You don't have to explain anything. A happy emoji send. That's it. One tiny step. It is amazing how those one tiny step start building on top of each other and it starts breaking down those walls that we've put up that are so strong that then create anxiety and stress in our lives.  And if you've created a cocoon of clutter and not just physical clutter but emotional clutter or overwhelm that then feels like it's caving in on you then really it's your brain saying I did this yesterday and it kept me alive. So I'm too frightened to do anything different and I know I'll keep myself safe if I just do the very same thing today. So sometimes you need a mentor or a guide that would be a clear signal. If you don't know how to get out of this situation then it's time to reach out to someone to say, can you help me with this? And when you find someone who you feel safe with who can actually help you through to become the person you want to become to create a clear, well-lit path not only physically in your home down the hall and on the table but also to step into the person you'd like to become that shows a self-trust. It grows yourself confidence and self-worth and self-value in such a way that that invites the right people into your life naturally because you're sending out the message that you value yourself. Therefore you will be automatically sending the message to invite someone in that says I value you as much and more that you value yourself. I see a lot of questions in the comments about people who have inherited loving clutter. And I think that might be worthy of a conversation or discussion. And you, Angela, you may have experience with this because the things we leave behind represent who we are and the impact we've made on the world, that legacy, right? And if- Yes and no, yes and no. I wanna stop for just a second because it's easy to go, yes, everything that my mother left me was really important to her and the actual reality is no it isn't.  No they didn't, she just used them while she was on earth. And so what we like to do is ask ourselves, first ourselves, what are we using right now that's just utility and can we tag it so that our relatives that come behind us are not going, oh, this was my mother's, this was so important to her and then they felt obligated to hang on to it forever. Like our toaster for example, the toaster is just a toaster, just toast bread, that's all it does, it's a utility item. There are very few items like a toaster that people need to hang on to like, this represents my mother, well, if your mother loved that toaster and that was like the one thing that, okay, keep the toaster, there are exceptions, but for the most part, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't mean anything. There might be one or two really cherished, unique items that you go, wait a second, this, this I wanna hang on to. But don't you think, Angela, that it's the safety and security? It's like, I don't wanna lose my parent, but my parent is gone. However, I do have their toaster and their nail clipper, is that enough? The answer is no, it's not enough because we're still hanging on and what it goes back to, and I love that we have Michelle in our conversation for this, what it goes back to is it has nothing to do, oh no, am I saying this? I am, check it out. It has nothing to do with the nail clippers and the toaster. It has everything to do, check this out, with our relationship with our mother. That's it. So let's talk about that for a moment. And I also saw a note in the questions about lost relationships not only to someone passing, but that they've lost love because a partner, a spouse will leave because the spouse didn't know how to deal with this. So if we were going to simmer all of this down, here's the quote that I use. Take what you need, not more than what you need, give what you can, not more than what you have. And that quote has served me through many, many years and helped many, many people understand how much they should give of their time, of their money, of their energy, of their life experience, of all of it. Take what you need, not more than what you need, give what you can, not more than what you have. So let's take the scenario of you have learned hoarding from a loving parent. And for some reason, I use the following hand signal with this. I don't know, it probably won't become famous, but it is what it is. And my clients know what I'm talking about when I do it. Here's the person who has taught you this skill. And this person based on all of their life experience and information and good love will share the best that they can with you. And here you are, and you'll take what they are showing you in role modeling and what you're learning from them. And with that, you will move forward in life. But there's some very strong differences here. You here have a different set of variables in your life and you have a different set of goals. The other key piece that people forget is when you're an adult, let's use this example, you're a parent, a loving parent, has given you the best information and guidance they can. They gave it to you at an age appropriate level. So maybe you're here saying, I wanna be a good girl. How am I going to be a good girl? I'm going to keep and respect everything that my mother left me when she left this planet. And I'm going to cherish it and take care of it. And what do I do with it? When you have your clear, well-lit path laid out for you and you know what your core values are, you can push against your core values to see if keeping this or freeing it up to help someone else and create space in your life so that you can breathe and live fully and grow in a healthy way, just like a tree needs the sunlight. And if there are other trees growing around it blocking that light, that tree cannot flourish.  And then also realize you are a role model for those who are coming after you, who you are being, who you want the best for. So you're the role model for those who come after you, your children. But also creating space in a relationship, in a partnership this way. So what does this mean? If your spouse doesn't have room on the bed to be one with you, then there's no room for that person to come into your life and they feel like they have been pushed out. So again, the way that I help people through this is to invite this in.   Maybe your mother taught you to have an incredible work ethic and any of these, a sense of humor, a sense of faith, any of these things, that's what you want to focus on. And if you have to go through your mother's things and there may be layers, oh my gosh, there may be sedimentary rock layers of generations of stuff in your home. And to understand and respect those who came before us and how they used that to create who you are, understand the qualities there as opposed to the infamous toast, now infamous, toaster and nail clippers. The qualities that they brought to you were a sense of faith, humor, a work ethic, responsibility, love and compassion. So how does a toaster represent those things? They probably don't. And the nail clippers that you now have five pair of, they don't. So to be free enough to allow those things, the freedom to go and do something else in the world. So that is a way to honor your parent by freeing those things up and maintaining the quality that the parent offered and rolled as a model for you. I love that. I absolutely love that concept. All right, let's repack it real quick, real fast just as a quick review. Because the example that our parents gave us or what they represented to us was so important to us that we're hanging onto that stuff right now. What I'm hearing Michelle say, and Michelle correct me if I don't quite have it right, I think I've got it, but the idea is this, because you embody that because you believed it, because you respect it, because you wanna hang onto it, become that in your own life so that you can turn around and lead by example, and you can be that mentor to someone else. Right now, one of the things that Michelle is saying about don't take more than you need and don't get more than you have, it comes down to what is it that I have? What I have is who I have become as a result of the influences in my life.  That's far more important than all the stuff, because we came into the world without our stuff and we're gonna leave the world without our stuff, but what difference did we make? And I heard the word legacy at the top of this conversation from Michelle. And my question to you is what is the legacy? What is the legacy that you got from your parents that their stuff represents to you? What is that legacy? And if we break that down piece by piece, what elements of that are so important to us that no matter what, we don't wanna let go of those elements. What is that? And can we reflect that in our own lives as we start to become more honest about who we are as people and be honest in our relationships to other people so we can invite them into our space, right? Beautifully said. Thank you. Thank you for this. I love this. This is so good. So good. So good, yes. All right. So I got a question because we've got a couple of comments that have come in and I just wanna say thanks to all you guys. This is amazing. We've got Carol in here. Hi, Carol. We've got Alice. Hi, Alice. We've got Maggie. We've got Alice again. We've got Gorgeous Wales from Cincinnati. Hi from Cincinnati. We've got Heinzville, Georgia here. We've just got so many folks here. We've got Heather. We've got Joyce. You guys, I love it. Thank you so much for joining us here. We've got Lily. Lily says I have no social network and no family. No one but God and I don't even trust him half the time. This is really important. And I love this, that you're admitting this and that you're aware. And it's okay if you don't trust God. It's okay. It's okay if we don't trust each other and it's okay if we don't trust ourselves because as we evolve through the process we're gonna hit all different kinds of ebbs and flows. And as we go through this self-reflection we're gonna hit a lot of different angles and say, wait a second. How do I feel about this? I know for myself I ran into a lot of issues where I had to stop and look at every one of my beliefs. And it wasn't just about God but it was about how do I feel about my health? How do I feel about how I'm treating myself? How do I feel about my physical exercise? How do I feel about the amount of sleep I am where I'm not getting every night? And I had to start being really honest with myself and that's what this is all about. And so it's okay if you find yourself in a situation where maybe you're unsure of any of those elements because no one is perfect in all of those areas at one time but I wanna share one quick concept with you and that is the concept of pillars. So if I have lots of pillars I can build something on top of it because they will withstand those pillars. If I only have one pillar and I build a foundation or that's my foundation it's always gonna be teetering, right?  But when I become crystal clear about what each of those represents to me then I have multiple pillars I can build something on top of, right? So I want us to say it's okay. Whoa, wait a second. One of my pillars is kind of shaky. I'm not sure how I feel about that. That's why we're having these conversations. So we can have a relationship first of all with ourself and then it affects the relationships we have with other people. Because if we don't know who we are and we don't know what we want from life and we can't articulate it, how on earth do we expect other people to come into our space and deliver that to us? And if they did, how would we recognize it when it arrives? If we don't know what we're looking for how are we gonna know if we have it? When we get it, right? This is one of the things that I've got a trilogy of books coming out. My publisher has not released them yet but it's the Find Love Now series. Uh-huh. And that's one of the things that people ask is how am I going to know when the right one comes along? And my answer to that is basically what you just said I loved it. If you have an idea of what you're looking for it's easier to find what you're looking for. And if what you're looking for is a needle in a haystack it's easier to clear away the haystack and find the needle. So if what you're looking for is a sense of safety and security and space to grow in your life but the things that you own are owning you and they're putting pressure on you creating a cocoon, creating a desire to not come home because you don't want to face it then those are the signals to say you know what I need to adjust the relationship that I have in my personal life with myself. If you're feeling like you can't trust yourself how could you possibly expect someone else to trust you? So really initially focusing on that relationship that you have with yourself with your inner voice and your inner thoughts to know that you can increase your self value your self worth, your self confidence then you are empowered and it literally exudes out of you so that you can take on that one tiny habit that one small step at a time and when you identify also where you believe you fit in the world. And I have not yet met anyone who is immortal but for those of us who are mortal we're going to be here for a specific time in this form. What would you like to create in your life during that time? And is it creating that legacy like Angela and I were talking about earlier is it what impact do you want to make? Is it bringing new people into the world? Is it inviting in a partner? Is it sharing life's joys and celebrations as well as challenges together? But to do that you still can maintain your individuality and you don't need to be trapped or secluded or isolated you need to be able to get through it enough to invite someone in who wants to be able to help you who wants to maintain their own individuality and then become something more than each of you individually in that kind of partnership in that relationship. And yes, creating a little bit of space for that makes the difference and going to the qualities the what is your goal? What do you want in this precious life? If you understand that clearly then going through the mountains and piles and storage units of other people's things will get very easy. All right, now I got a trick question for you and this one is from Diane. Diane says, my husband and I are starting to prepare for downsizing into a senior living community. It's easier for me than it is for him. We have three or four years to go but so much to do. So my question is and Diane, thank you for this question. My question is what happens because this happens all the time I get this question 10 times a day. What happens when I myself am prepared to downsize and my husband is a pack rat and he's not? What then? Oh, so true. And it's just that it's making sure that he feels safe. Don't give away anything you don't need to before you need to, more importantly. So don't talk about what needs to go because that editing is hard. Rather, one of the things that I do is I share this tool. It's called the, I call it the obligation Richter scale based on where it came from. And it was, my late husband was very logic minded. And so I would say things but he wouldn't pick up my nuance. And so on a scale of one to 10 this is a level five priority. It's not that big of a deal. You can come or not, either way is fine. If it were a priority seven then I'd love for you to come but it's not the end of the world. If it's a level 10, you need to show up. So rather than focusing on what your husband is going to be, have to let go of let's focus on what is so valuable and so important to him that that's what should come with. So rather than talking about what needs to be what he asked to let go of because that's a sense of insecurity and we want him to feel safe and secure. Let's talk about what he prizes and values and prioritizes the most so that when you are in your senior living home together you feel at home and you feel like you've taken the you've edited to the best of the juiciest most beautiful moments that are up on the wall and the trinkets along the way. That those are the ones that you need and the rest are photos in an album or just digital, you know you could have one digital frame with all of the other stuff and those are valuable because it will trigger the memory of your adventures in life together in the home that you share together because sometimes moving to a senior center means you don't have those natural organic triggers that you then people will say oh, I miss my spouse, they've passed I can't leave the house, he's here. No, he's not there. I can say this as a widow, he's in your heart. What is there is the trigger reminder that oh, this was the wall where we put the kids' ages as they grew. You know what? Take that piece of wood and put it in the senior center if that's so important to you. That's a level 10, bring it or reproduce it somewhere. I love that concept and I wanna highlight this. I don't want you guys to let that slip by without you bookmarking this in your memory. Okay, this is super important. What I just heard Michelle say is revolutionary and I want you guys to hang on to it. She said, don't focus on what you have to get rid of. Focus on what is a number 78910 for you to keep. And if you were to go through all of your stuff that way and not say, I've gotta get rid of this and be sad about getting rid of it, what is a number 10 to me? What is it that I want to keep?  A lot in my house. And I look at it, I'm like, yes, that makes my heart sing. Am I ever gonna use it again? No, but when I look at it, I dance with joy, right? It's not useful, but on a scale of one to 10 and if I were gonna downsize and cut my space down into a tiny size, would I take it with me? The answer is no, I would not. But boy, do I love it, right? And so on a scale of one to 10, it might really only be a three, but a super happy three, you know? And when you're really honest about how important is it to keep, there's a lot of stuff in our lives that's not even utility. It's not something that we're using. It's not something we'll probably ever use again. And one of the little self-designed things we've been going through is what am I giving myself permission to let go of because it's not a seven, eight, nine or a 10? And here's the clap, the catch or the glitch, if you will. It may have been a number 10 to you at one point in time, okay, like my sewing machines. That was a number 10 to me at one point in time. And then as I look at all my free time that I really don't have, but as I look at my free time, what am I doing? Am I sitting down at my sewing machine and sewing? I am not, I'm not. I'm now writing books and I'm spending my time doing things on the internet and on the computer now. I'm not sitting at the sewing machine. It was a 10 to me at one time, but it is not any longer. And so as we start to downsize and let go of things in our lives, instead of focusing on, I gotta get rid of this, it's what is no longer an eight, nine or a 10 to me.  You don't love them any less. It doesn't negate the time you spent together. It just means it served its purpose. You had that time together. It's moved on and that's the natural ebb and flow of stuff. Me getting rid of a sewing machine is the natural ebb and flow. If I need something tailored, I'm most likely gonna pay somebody to tailor it for me now.  I've moved on from that moment of my life. And I love this concept, rate it on a scale of one to 10. I love that because even a spouse who's like, I don't wanna get rid of anything, they can certainly go, well, it's a seven or it's a five or it's a three. They can kind of let go of it. And then once you've labeled everything, then really we can only afford to bring the nine 10s. So it will help you clear the clutter. I would love to repeat what you were just talking about with some of the questions that have come up in the comments here, because the examples you were giving just like, and everyone will remember this in some way or another, when you were a little kid, you had a favorite toy, a favorite show, a favorite something.  And now when you look at it, it's a raggy tag old thing or, so you had to outgrew it and didn't want to, you may have held on longer than you desired, but then you needed to let go to make room because you don't need the trike, you need the bike, then you need the car, then you need, I don't know what's happening, the electric or whatever, the airplane, but growing is part of developmental changes and phases in life. We were just looking at pictures of this red leather chair that seemed like the greatest thing ever. And we just looked at pictures of it yesterday. It was ripped and torn and shredded. That's not how it is in our memory. Right. So if we actually got that red chair, we'd be like, oh God, yuck. This is not, in fact, the kids were saying that, they actually didn't like the red leather couch because it had bugs. So that's not my grandparents' memory of it. It's not my memory of it, but we valued it so much that we were like, look at this great thing that's ripped and torn and filled with bugs. So it took three generations for it to wear out its use, but there it is. So. And that's really an important concept that I wanna highlight because when we have stuff that we're storing in an attic, in a garage, in a storage unit, oftentimes it loses its meaning because it does get bugs or it gets weather beaten or spiders get in it or it becomes dusty and full of cobwebs and it never is, again, what it once originally was. Maggie says, I was depressed over losing my daughter's handprint. Then I realized it didn't have any meaning to anyone but me. And that helped. It was a tough lesson. When you hoard, you can't find important stuff. And I love this concept. Thank you, Maggie, for sharing this with me because we run into a situation oftentimes where we think something is so incredibly important when we discover we're the only person that means anything to. Like my husband discovering that his mother had saved after 50 years his little dress that he was christened in.  And it only means something to two people in the whole world, me and her. And it doesn't mean anything to me. So now there's one person in the world that means something to, and the low and behold, she's been saving onto it for 50 years. He's like, I don't have the heart to tell her I don't want it. And I said, please tell her because she's probably saving it for you. She's probably saving it for you. And she would probably be loved to downsize a little bit and get rid of some of that stuff. Please let her know. You're not interested. And cherish it. To give it, if it's in pristine quality, it's give what you can, not more than what you have. Maybe someone can use that in a beautiful way. We, I saw in the notes, people are wondering, what do I do with my music collection? What do I do with my books? Those were really curated, very accurate, pristine, self-selected, lived over and over again, experiences and stories and songs. And in reality, you can put all of it on your phone and you can free up the paper and the plastic and allow it to go to someone who's using those things right now. I definitely did that one. What does Heather say for us? Heather says, I have my son living with me now and he's been through a divorce that was traumatic for him. Heather, I am so sorry that you're going through this. This is awful and I'm sorry for your son. So my heart goes out to you. He's having a difficult time letting go of things that he doesn't use or need. And it's making my home clutter. So this is third generation. Like this is coming from his marriage, him and his wife. And then that relationship didn't work out. And so now it's at her house.  It's now affecting her life. And it's not her issue. And I love that Heather shared this with us. So thank you for sharing that with us. But what happens when you end up with stuff that's not even yours and you wanna honor the person? I mean, Heather here is trying to honor her son and his feelings because this was traumatic for him. And yet it's affecting her life, right? So how do we work through that where we have, I mean, we gotta have a conversation, right? And say, wait a second, something is happening. So here it is. And you'll start to see a pattern in the way that I help people through things. I'm so sorry that your son's relationship didn't work out the way that he had hoped and planned and dreamed that it would and should have worked. He is now grieving. And in many ways, so are you because you want the best for your son. He's grieving the life and the relationship he thought he should have had. He's grieving the loss of the life time. Time is quite a thief in situations like this. The time that he invested in the relationship that he thought he should have had. So what he may be doing is holding on to what he can hold on to. When you're in an out of control situation, and this would be one of those situations because he's on the heels of heartbreak. And how does he move forward? To give him some control of something. When I'm coaching, I offer, would you like me to listen, guide or help?  I'm shut down, my life didn't go the way I planned it to be. Now I'm in a developmental phase of life alone and lonely, thank God he has you to rely on. Good job bringing him in to the loving arms that you have to share with him. But it's an out of control situation. To give him a choice to take a breath and just a simple choice. You don't have to make big choices on the stuff just yet. But what would he like for dinner, this or that? Or would he like to sit or stand or what? Just something to give him a moment of a breath to go, I would like to choose guide or help. When offered, can I listen, would you like me to listen, guide or help?  And this is where executive functioning and decision-making happens. So first allow him to feel safe and know that he's okay and he is enough and that he is going to be all right. Then it's a matter of creating a well-lit path for him. Who does he want to become? Does he want to, is whatever, he's ready to invite someone new into his life? What are the values that he holds onto and what values would he like to invite into his life? And as these things start to get put in place, he will realize that all of the things that are now cluttering your life, including him, sorry, will then be released because they don't hold as much value anymore. In fact, he may wanna let go of a whole bunch of it just like he did with that whole relationship so that he then is free to step forward without a whole bunch of baggage weighing him down emotional and otherwise so that he can become who he still has so much life to live to become. I love that, oh, I love that. This is so good, you guys, oh, this is great. And one of the things that I have noticed, and this is my personal observation being inside thousands of people's homes as a professional house cleaner over the last 30 years, this is one of the things that I've noticed. Most of the people who have clutter and hoarding tendencies, they are creative people, okay? They collect a lot of stuff because they see utility in it. They say, oh, I could make something out of this and I'm gonna do something fun with that. And they save and they are creators, okay? They're also people pleasers and they want to help other people and they would give you the shirt off their back. In fact, they got lots of shirts, let me give you what I have. There's no shame in sharing what you have and most people will give you everything they've got, okay? So they're givers, they're people pleasers, they're creatives, I love this, okay? And so what I just heard Michelle say was invite him to have the conversation. Invite him in and create a safe space where you can have that conversation and this is if you are a nurturer to say, hey, it's okay if you're going through this right now. What can I do to help and do you want me to listen or do you want me to help or do you just want me to be, what were the three things you said? Listen, guide or help. Listen, guide or help. And if you don't know how to guide, if you don't have the guiding capabilities, that's where people like Michelle come in where they can do a Zoom call with you or a conference call or something like that. With a couple of sessions, they could probably help you learn the guiding process on how to help somebody through their process, right? Whatever that process is. We have a slightly different question of the same kind. This one is not, I have someone in my family that suffered from the trauma, but this one is from Alice who says, I've been what my mom called a pack rat. Then I raised two girl pack rats. My youngest daughter, Sarah, died February 1st of 2021. And Alice, I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. That is just heartbreaking. And I'm sorry for you. And I'm praying for your comfort. She had piles and piles that she's still, that she's living in it. And then she says, I'm broken and I'm frozen and mostly non-functional. And so I want to stop for just a second. And I want to honor this moment because what we're experiencing from with Alice going through this, was she inherited these behaviors from her mother. So she had these hoarding tendencies that she was given kind of like this is the world we live in. This is our normal way of living. So then when she turned around and she had kids of her own, she repeated what she knew. No shame there. You're not alone in doing that. That's very common in many families. And now to have the daughter who has passed on. So we're stuck with this stuff from the mother. We're stuck now with this stuff from the daughter. And I don't say stuck meaning it's a bad thing. I mean, now there's a lot of emotions that are tied up in that, okay? And so there's this question. And the question is what Michelle just said about where you listen, guide or help. But what happens if you are that person and you don't know how to listen, guide or help yourself? What happens then? I am so, so sorry for your loss. This would be the same thing. Grief is complicated. It's ambiguous. And this is all grief. And grief roams the house and smothers you at night. And when you're trying to get something done, grief blurs your vision with tears. And it slams your head against the wall, drops you to the kitchen floor, puts its foot on your neck and prevents you from breathing or seeing your future. That's what I think about grief. And in reality, like I said, the way to address this, and no one is going to ever say that it's easy. So if you have a friend nearby who can even just hold your hand or keep company or a pet nearby to keep company while you go through this, to invite this grief in, and you can address it one thing at a time, to have a cup of tea at the table and identify what does this grief hold that you treasure and honor that treasure. So it doesn't have a hold on you. It will help move you forward. So honor that treasure is the answer to the question that you're asking. How do I deal with this? It could be something extravagant like a raising money for the funds with a run every year to honor whatever the situation was. That's kind of a very big community deal. And it may not be your skill set. It may be something as simple as I have things that my daughter has collected during her time here and what she's created and her legacy in life is a million different lipstick cases or elephant forms, whatever it is. And if you can pull those things together, keep the treasure for yourself and put that in an auspicious place in your world to be the trigger to remind you of your love and all that she brought into your life. Then how can you take what you need, not more than what you need, give what you can, not more than what you have, share so that someone else can benefit from what is cluttering your world? And to release that, I mean, people oftentimes, they just wanna know that it went to a place where someone's going to value it as much as you do. And it's not always to that level, but they're going to value it in their way or you can have an organization come in and receive that so that they can then distribute it to where it will be best served. And I wanna add one thing to what Michelle is saying in honoring the legacy that your daughter left behind. I want to say that there's a very close cousin to grief and that's shame. And in the same sentence of us reading that the daughter was lost, there was also I raised two pack rat daughters, okay? That was in the very same sentence. And I wanna stop for just a second and say, it's okay to let go of the shame of saying I raised two pack rat daughters, okay? The daughter has a lot of stuff now. I understand that's a concern, but please don't confuse the shame of that along with raising two pack rat daughters. The pack rat daughters is an inheritance. You inherited that great hoarding tendency. I inherited one from my mother. Thank you very much, mother. I know how that is to end up with a lot of stuff and appreciate the creative side where you see stuff and you find a utility in it and you wanna hang on to stuff because you think one day you may use it and all the things that come along with hoarding tendencies. But I want us to be very clear that the grief is not, this is not shame, okay? I don't want you to think, oh no, something's bad or something's wrong and let that be the reason that you're frozen, okay? Like Michelle said, it's so important to honor and invite in the grief and to really honor that and what did your daughter mean to you? What was the legacy that she left behind? But please let's create a little separation from that, that there was a pack rat issue, okay? I don't, please don't think that that's your fault that you raised a pack rat daughter. Hoarding tendencies you inherited, God given right to own stuff. You own it now. It was down. But as you move forward, this is what we're doing. We're all having a conversation right now for these very reasons. There are a lot of people that are absolutely frozen. They're absolutely stuck because they're saying, I don't know what to do. And they don't want to have a conversation with other people because they're afraid, they're ashamed, they feel bad, they wish things were different. But the reality is this, when we start being honest with ourselves and we say, I have hoarding tendencies, you know? Thank you, mother. I got all this stuff that gives us opportunity now to have choices. We can have choices because we are aware and moving forward as we are aware that allows us then to say, I'm now gonna be honest with myself. And if I'm honest with myself, what does that mean? What that means is I can now experience the grief. I can now invite other people into my life who can have a conversation with me, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a coach, whether it's a mentor, whether it's a family member that I can start unpacking some of these ideas. And I can start saying, how do I feel about those things? How does that pillar of my life actually support the rest of the foundation that we've built? And I'm inviting you along with Michelle here because she's just given us so many gold nuggets today. I wanna invite you to really be aware that what we're experiencing here, it is grief. It's not shame. This is not shame, okay? This is grief and this carries a little bit different variety of sadness with it. And so it's okay to be sad. My heart breaks for you. I can't even imagine what you're going through. But I want you to know you're not alone. You're not alone in this, okay? One of the things that I'm seeing repeated here is that there are some things we're not willing to let go of and that is also fine. But again, if you're not willing to let go of this curated collection of music, this curated collection of books, this curated collection of what your daughter left behind, pick something, and it could be the collection of books, music, whatever it is, and then you can create shadow boxes or just came up or sanctuary of some sort for that. If you really honor your music collection, create a music room that is clear and inviting to come in and make it, have the record player and the albums and put the images on the wall so that it is honored. If the books are what you want to honor, create incredible shelving so that you are featuring this wonderful thing and create space for it to be featured and highlighted. Same thing with something valuable about your daughter and or maybe every year, once a year, we have the favorite peanut butter and banana sandwich at a specific park because that's something she loves that you do that because that honors her and how she impacted your life and the world. So creating space to feature something that's beautiful and unique just like you, you don't need to be held down and cluttered and shamed by any of this, rather make space and honor yourself and allow yourself to have the light shining on you because you are the level 10 choice, the priority. You are the number one. You are the feature that we're going to be focusing on and you're the focal point.  Create a world around you that then features you. Oh, this is so good.   You guys, for those of you whose questions we did not get answered, I'm gonna come back and answer those in the comments below after this is over. Thank you so much for joining us today. Michelle, as you leave us, please tell us where our listeners can go and find you and learn about your books. Like I said, two-time international bestselling author. Come on guys, this is fantastic. I so appreciate Michelle being here. Tell us where our listeners can go and find you. So if you go to theartofrelationshipping.com, at theartofrelationshipping.com, you will find me. You will also find a resource page with lots of free resources, as well as links to Life Worth Living, a practical and compassionate guide to navigating widowhood and soul parenting. And this is all about personal relationships and it's got all kinds of great ideas and how to rebuild life after a major life change. Also, the second international bestseller is the new management blueprint, spark talent to ignite winning teams, creating valuable results. This is all about professional relationships and how to make it work in the workplace with all of your personal and professional relationships. The new things that are coming your way on that website, theartofrelationshipping.com, is the Find Love Now series. And this is how to attract, navigate and enjoy all the right relationships in your life. So the art of relationship will bring you to all of that bounty and treasure that I'm happy to share with you. Thank you so much for today. I'm gonna leave links in the show notes as well so that you guys can easily access all of that stuff. Thank you, Michelle. I gotta have you come back and visit with us again. Thank you so much. Thank you guys for tuning in and we will see you guys again same time, same place next week. Until then, take care. Thank you.