Good evening friends. As we have been taking sessions on different aspects, one morning some friend of mine had shared a video of Dr. G.K. Swamin with an IT officer on various aspects and we also saw that he has his own channel where he is just submitting knowledge and sensitizing people on various aspects of law and beyond that. We requested him and at a short notice he has agreed to take the session with us and we are obliged. Dr. G.K. Goswami and IPS who has created his own mark of style of decimating knowledge. The strength and challenges of forensic science in India is today's session and for a change we will be having a topic which has an interplay of bilingual language. We hope that the participants not only on the Zoom as well as on the YouTube would definitely enjoy the session which we are taking in a deeper dive in different spectrum. Over to you Mr. Goswami. Thank you very much Mr. Vikas giving me this opportunity to interact with very learned fraternity of advocates and beyond that as you told that various known advocate professionals are also there. Common people may also hear this talk so I decided not to go into very great detail and I will be touching the overall perspective how forensic science evidence may help the court to take decision and what are the bright side of forensic science as well as the challenges as well right because everything has its brighter side as well as otherwise also. So I will give the both picture and in the beginning itself let me tell you that the forensic science of course since beginning if we see our Indian evidence act as old as 1872 since its inception it has section 45 to 51 which indicate role of expert opinion in delivery of justice right. So this is not a very new phenomena probably from the day the codification of Indian evidence came into operation it exists so that means that the vitis rural rulers of India at that point of time has acknowledged very well the nuances of forensic evidence. Second disclaimer I must tell you that the new laws but particularly the new major criminal law including your Indian penal code the procedure code the Indian evidence act all these three are going to be implemented from first July of this year and by and large if you compare the old laws for particularly for forensic science as I mentioned section 45 to 51 of Indian evidence acts 1872 and the corresponding new law that is Bhartya Saks adhenium 2023 here though those same sections have been housed from section 39 to 45. So the number are same only the the chronology has changed or you can say the serial number had changed that is number one that was 45 to 51 now it is 39 to 45 likewise in CRPC also by and large the entire you know framework remain the same but there is very important one point which I want to stress and here it will focus that how forensic evidence is going to be very very important the time to come once these new law got implemented and that specific section which I am referring is section 176 subsection 3 I repeat section 176 subsection 3 of Bhartya Nagarik Swakshasahita 2023 1763 right that you can call it is a procedural law basically CRPC 1763 what it is it is very important mentioning that that once the procedure law from 1st July will operational then every crime which is avoiding punishment either 7 year or more that means you can say in simple language those who are known legal professional the heinous crime you can simply see where the punishment is 7 year or no in those cases forensic investigation becomes mandatory what does it mean it means the word cell has been used in this section now it is not optional today as a police officer suppose I want to collect DNA or note it is a choice of the police but once this new law gets operationalized then it becomes compulsory in case there are there is any issue or some reason then that reason has to be narrated in the case diary or in the general diary and to be intimated to the court so that becomes obligatory now it is not a choice that is why the role of forensic become very very important and my dear friends the legal fraternity particularly I am referring to that unfortunately the forensic component in the legal study since beginning till date is very very limited all of course everybody says that yes we have given some kind of understanding but as a practitioner of police as well as the the researcher in the in legal studies and forensic science I have closely watched that the adequate knowledge it is still wanting right from different different actors of criminal justice system maybe the judge maybe the prosecutor of course police is very important and they are most ignorant I can say to that extent but others and by and large stand on the same point though nobody except this this fact but when the the true analysis comes then this is the scenario this may be a bitter statement but this is the fact and I can tell you how I I I qualify my sentence that most of the time when there is any forensic expert opinion mostly the operative part had been considered that means the conclusion part it is being just read like a gospel truth and I tell you my dear friends that forensic result or forensic opinion the conclusion is not the gospel truth science maybe right mostly the science may give you the correct result of course there are also challenges there is junk forensic science there are so many products floating floating instances recorded reported across the globe India has not done much on that point but there are stray cases which I will refer on that point but the fact remains that procedures are very very important like it is a like end and means theory so forensic science the procedure should be very very you can say transparent number one they should be well settled otherwise science may be right but the man behind science may do any wrong so with this note let me begin with my talk I think I made my introductory part so that it should be clear why forensic evidence becomes more important in the time to come for next two to three months we should be ready to accept this challenge which has been which has been I don't say imposed but it has enabled the criminal justice system in a more systematic manner by introducing mandatory role of forensic evidence in our criminal justice system so friends we know that justice is very important attribute for any society everybody agree to it whether it is the ancient India or ancient world or maybe in the next centuries forward today tomorrow maybe old person maybe America or any part meaning thereby that across time and space the justice remain the single attribute which is most wanted and it is the yardstick for good governance the rule of law is embedded in the the ensuring justice to the society so justice is very important and justice how to reach to justice we have to find truth behind the facts but dear friends both justice as well as truth they are indeterminate they are unquantifiable one may say this is justice another may say otherwise likewise one may say it is truth other may say no it is not so how to quantify these two indeterminate factors it is basically the evidence which determinate which give you the exact shape to find truth so role of evidence is very very important critical and in general terms if we see we is highly dependent depending upon oral testimony most of the time if we see around 70 to 80 percent of our justice system is dependent upon oral testimony and the our the ocular witness or the eye witness is considered the gold witness the primary witness the the you can say the best you know testimony but as you know that oral testimony have so many inherent challenges one may have some personal band data one may implicate somebody which we see in a day in and day out where everybody says that lot of you know wrongful convictions are there wrongful implications are there wrongful you know allegations are there so that is one point then there may be some miscarriage misrepresentation of fact somebody may might have thought that oh this is like this but the fact may be different so eye witness may have lot of challenges despite all the good things the because of various reasons that witness crossed the flows the hostility so in nutshell the oral testimony has so many challenges and have wider scope for miscarriage of justice so what to do we have to have some kind of corroborating you know framework and my dear friends for the purpose of corroboration forensic science is a good option it is a very very you know proven science and the best part if somebody says that what is the good points if I narrate three good points of forensic evidence the one is the neutrality neutrality means that it is neutral most of the time we introduce the evidence in the form of either prosecution witness or the defense witness so they take side they do not you know intended by itself they do not inherently intended to speak truth although it is the duty of the court it is the duty of the cross examination by which the truth has to be executive it has to be explored but per se the intention may be otherwise from the witness side that is the hidden challenge it is the obvious challenge of the criminal justice system especially in the adversarial like we have okay so with this the forensic evidence is neutral by itself why I am saying this it may be helpful to be a in an in culpatry evidence what is in culpatry evidence which prove guilt on the other hand the same evidence may be helpful to prove innocence and that is called exculpatory evidence so the neutrality part if I summarize the forensic evidence is neutral because it may be used both by the prosecution side to prove guilt as in culpatry evidence and if it is in exculpatory then it may prove innocence so this is the neutrality part the second best part is it is scientifically validated if you say 2 plus 2 equal to 4 then anybody may ask that how you reach to this conclusion so that is its its validation possible otherwise for any oral testimony there is no validation that is the beauty of this part number three the reproducibility you can reproduce the test suppose you have some doubt on DNA test on fingerprint matching on any report of the forensic expert then if you have sample left out you may send it to some other leverage maybe even one year later maybe in a after 10 year you may send it to us you may send to any part of country any part of the world so this reproducibility retesting is another beauty to testify whether the report is correct or not which does not exist with your oral testimony so with these these although there are many other qualities also but because of positive time I don't want to take much of time so this is one part okay so this part is very very important that forensic science are corroborative number two it is secondary evidence it cannot be used at primary evidence so it is very unsafe I am a stone supporter of forensic science but I always say that we have to be very cautious when we are using forensic science because as I mentioned that science may speak truth but anybody behind science may do any wrong so it is the end and means theory and may be good but procedure may be wrong so that has to be a challenge and we have to be very cautious while addressing in the court of law the forensic evidence now let me tell you what is forensic evidence forensic evidence is basically a derivative or that it is the resultant of the scientific analysis of any evidence okay it brings perfectness injustice right now with the help of forensic science as I mentioned you can corroborate suppose a girl a lady delegates about any sexual assault there is no eyewitness there but the forensic evidence like DNA report may be fingerprint these days the digital data and various other variant of forensic evidence may be helpful to corroborate the assertion made by even a victim or any eyewitness okay so this is very very positive side and another point I want to make here itself that if you want the justice without flow and I always say that our justice at every rank and profile right from our apex codes to our trial codes they are squarely dependent upon both parties like the prosecution and the defendant the evidence produced before them they analyze them based on the cross examination by applying their own mind judicial analysis interpretation and all but the the the raw material is provided only by both parties this is the limitation and based on that suppose evidence are poorly performed they have been produced wrongly or they may be having some kind of manipulation and so many other factors then there are a lot of chances of miscarriage of justice and that is the reason why the innocent people get convicted and on the other hand the culprits get acquitted so that is a big challenge and my dear friends if we promote usage of forensic science with precautions with proper SOPs then there are chance to minimize this gap I always say that justice or you can say the judgment is dependent upon the quality of evidence and we have talked lot about fair trial my dear colleague my dear advocates but we have hardly talked about fair investigation you see various covenants on human rights right from 1948 the UDHR United Nations Convention on Human Rights maybe ICCPR of 1966 various other covenants or regional treaties they all have loudly highlighted underpin the role of fair trial but fair investigation is at the backseat nobody has talked about and I strongly believe as having around now 28 plus year of service as a senior police officer I can vouch with these facts that until unless you ensure transparency and fairness in investigation no court can provide with certain justice so fair trial is dependent it is precursor to fair trial so fair trial is the first step it is a role of police this should be acknowledged properly and their you know methodology their procedures their SOPs should be tightened we cannot ignore the role of police in this criminal justice system we should not only think that it is the judicial system in the court room which provide justice I think justice get the first step when it enter into the police station right from there the FIR get registered the scene of crime is edited the evidence are being collected they are being interpreted and then only it reach to the court room if there is any kind of SODI investigation muddling in the evidences then no system can provide justice so this is another point I want to highlight now what is the role of investigation if I summarize basically investigation is meant for human identification especially in criminal justice system I am talking about how take it in the for the purpose of victim identification dear friends in many cases you must have seen in your entire career that the victim may be a minor very small toddler or may not be having capacity to disclose the identity many times the child may be challenged mentally challenged or speech challenged even the adult may also have the same kind of problem the victim may be fented the the victim may be died even if the face is identifiable but there is nobody to identify there may be pitified bodies without any sign of identification by face or any otherwise likewise you may get bones so identification of victim becomes very important part of investigation on the other hand from the viewpoint of the accused the FIR may be named but despite that you have to prove the accused beyond reasonable doubt that yes you have to link that beyond reasonable doubt that that this person is responsible for committing the crime so role of investigation is basically for human identification and DNA is very very important tool for human identification despite various other technologies like you say fingerprint vice spectroscopy then ballistics chemical analysis then medical legal analysis and so on and so forth but the role of DNA fingerprint becomes very very vital and I will give you in five seven minutes the brief of how DNA entered into courtroom okay that may be a very good story to listen and to understand the nuances of DNA forensics my dear friends it was invented by one geneticist he was a postdoctoral fellow in late 1970s and he was postdoctoral fellow in Lancaster University of London he was actually his research problem was to link the parent with the children with their siblings genetically that means to create genealogy or genetic tree or lineage that was his problem the research problem you can see he by having no idea or no aim to connect anything of his research with judicial system so he collected the blood sample of his lab assistant his wife and two of his children so four samples were being analyzed four years together and on 10th of September 1984 he said its Euro commitment at that at 9 o'clock in the morning 9 o'clock a.m he said it was eureka moment when he got the desire reason meaning thereby the parents can be linked genetically with the children and his research becomes a phenomenal research across the globe it was hugely appreciated across his beyond any boundaries of the countries and he coined this term for human identification DNA fingerprint because DNA represents the genetic material and fingerprint was already in use for human identification so genetic fingerprint which subsequently renamed as DNA testing DNA profiling and so on and so forth but DNA fingerprinting was the first term and this was published in nature and many other journals and it got a very famous representation in the annals of genetic research this is 1984 now comes 1985 one important incident was languishing in the office of immigration authority of london in the same city where one lady one ghania lady was struggling to bring her one i think three year old child for immigration to london from ghania she had already one another child with her in london but she wants the younger one also to bring to london to live with her as usual the immigration authority of london was suspecting thinking that the child does not belongs to her but she is disguising and trying to get the immigration you know rights wrongly this matter was pending inspired by this research of professor alec jeffrey the advocate of the lady requested the authorities that the same problem has been very scientifically addressed by one of our scientists in the same city why can't we address or why can't we request him this problem to solve the authorities accepted this offer the sample were collected from the mother the child and the siblings and alec jeffrey in his autobiography has mentioned this fact that when the result was disclosed in the in front of the authorities in their office he was there and he disclosed this fact saying that the child belongs to mother and he writes in his autobiography that the gratitude the way she gazed at her at him at that point of time he mentioned that it was the best reward for him forever meaning thereby that if you provide justice to anybody this is the best you can say gift to someone in the life so this is one this was the second you can say landmark in the anal of DNA fingerprinting in the judicial system then comes the final and third one that is in 1986 two criminal cases of rape and murder of two adolescent girls were languishing as cold case one was of 1983 another was of 1986 two adolescent girls were raped brutally and were killed and the distance of the two incident was almost strung through hardly 20 30 meters means close so close they were cold case having no clue david becker was the detective the police officer he is somehow suspected one fellow called richard buckland richard buckland at that point of time his age was about 17 years and mind it my friends he confessed to commit the second crime what knows better in what circumstance he confessed here it put question mark when i will disclose certain facts in just after two three minutes he confessed david becker produced him before the court court asked certain question to richard buckland court were not satisfied he said to the police that you collect more evidence he is under the cloud of doubt but not sufficient to book him frustrated with this whole exercise of last three four year the david consider to meet professor elec jaff he asked him that can you help to identify the culprit inspired and enthusiastic before by the previous immigration case elec jaffry took this challenge and i had occasion to talk with elec jaffry on this point and whatever i am talking with you is the disclosure by him by him only so he said that i was very much happy that if my technology can help the criminal court or to bring justice it will be great you know service to the society but when they actually identify or when they they have screened the suspected or the probable rapist in that area they were more than five thousand five hundred so now you imagine that screening by dna that much samples needs huge fun till date most of the time we as police officers say that we are unable to conduct dna because of its cost higher cost and you just be at that point of time when it was just a newly invented technique and we're not sure whether it will produce the desired result or not but anyhow the matter reached up to which is palia and the other prime minister mrs market thatcher considering the importance of the disclosure of these two cases in london they actually approved the desired fund and the process started the first person to collect the sample was richard buckland to whom the owner he had the suspicion was hanging the sample analysis disclosed that he is innocent for both the cases just you see here it put the confession on suspicion how confession can be recorded and i tell you one another point because it's full bright fellow i went last last year that is 2022 i went as a professor for nala school and visited various part of ua usa earlier i visited various other uh you know police institution judicial institution were serving with the united nations also so with this i had occasion to understand nuances of long for conviction and innocence clean in us five friends i want to disclose this fact that in us more than 94.5 percent cases and it is a record you can just google and see 94.5 percent cases or more they are simply disposed in criminal site based on either confession or guilty there are hardly necessity of conducting trial but there are so many cases reported and i had occasion to meet and interview 12 such people those who are on death row and later dna and other technology could prove their innocence and one fellow watch within the bar behind the bar for nearly 31 years and here the execution date were fixed twice but because of some procedural reasons for not being executed so when they narrate the actual inside story of how criminal justice system operate this is harrowing and this may be the situation in very other jurisdiction also nobody can say with certainty that we do not have any problem of wrongful convictions wrongful allegation is certainly there but wrongful conviction is a very very challenging thing and if you have the death penalty fortunately india has very limited scope for death penalty but country like us in many states of course few states have banned now but various state like alabama the the frequency of death penalty is very very high okay so now here let me come back to the same thing where that this dna screening test were being in the process and then the the test was conducted and nearly five five thousand people were screened and later it was found that by considering or by testing nearly five thousand people there was no result positive result you can say that was very frustrating scenario so ultimately one good thing happened in the evening one one day in the evening time at a pub a person called young kelly was sitting and he disclosed one fact to his friend saying that that look i have been asked from my friend that you please go and impersonify and submit your own blood in my name and mind friends he successfully went submit his blood in the name of his friend this fact was disclosed to police police caught young kelly and he ultimately disclosed that the his friend was colin fish fork colin fish fork was caught and and his blood sample matched with both the girls the disease girls and thus this real culprit was put forth or was placed before the court so this is the strength of DNA and right from there till date the DNA had been proved its evidence rebirth across the globe so so many people have been utilized so many people have been convicted so many people have been adjunerated on the strength of DNA so this is the brighter side india had also been utilizing this type of DNA and other tests since its inception and i must salute one fellow named dr laljeet Singh who was the director of ccm behedrabad and was also the vice chancellor of banaras in the university he was pioneer to introduce DNA in india in a very very great manner and he was the person who was responsible for identifying the dead body of late sri rajeev gandhiji so DNA has been utilized in full strength in india since its inception almost i think thousand and thousand cases have been screened through dna so this is yet another point that dna can be utilized now let me tell you some you can say the flip side or the challenge is in forensic science friends in 2000 particularly you can say 2000 to 2005 seven in different state of united states lot of forensic frauds were reported there were huge cases and i tell you few examples in houston itself in 2002 nearly 20 000 to 22 000 plus cases of drugs they were found that the forensic analysis was wrong they were not properly screened and one term i want to explain here and to put before you is called dry living dry living what it is dry living means that without actually conducting any analysis the report is being prepared and hold your breath we all have suffered with the dry living issues when covid was in progress for our different blood tests or our covid screening tests lot of reports were there whereby it was allowed that without conducting the pcr rt pcr reports were reported so this this phenomena is called dry living so there were so many cases not only in houston but in mashah shushrat and many more there was another a scientist any dukhan who was also being suspended then criminal case was also launched against her in mashah shushrat so so many cases were reported and afterwards the president of united state has set up a very big you know authority or you can say a advisory body and since then i think seven or eight reports at different point of times have been taken up by very high authorities of us and now they have bring so many positive sides and so many restrictions so many precautions in the fields of forensic science but in india unfortunately we are little ignorant to introduce all those precautions i tell you a few things because you are the defense lawyer in most of the cases there may be police officers sitting here there may be another person at different point of time different you know actors of criminal justice system may watch this video so i want to tell you a few things where as a lawyer as a common citizen you must be you must be you can say sensitive that these incident can create the the miscarriage of justice number one there should be a proper procedure how to conduct the DNA for any test in the forensic field so that is one the procedure then another is the accreditation of the lab accreditation means whether there is a proper you can say examination of the analysis of the laboratory so you have to be very very cautious about the procedure because the procedure has to be very very clean transparent and scientifically validated so this is number two another important point my dear friend that neither section 45 of indian evidence act nor section 39 of the new law define who is an expert this is a is a vacuum is still continuing and if you see 702 section of evidence act of us and in other country judgment UK Germany the the forensic expert has been explained has been defined very clearly I think we should also introduce how forensic scientists should be defined right forensic expert should be defined that is another important point till date what we do we generally if you see the sections it is basically the especially especially skilled what is there if you see section 45 or alternatively section 39 especially skilled in one case which you must you may refer because a lot of advocates are sitting here jail on versus the state of Himachal Pradesh jail on versus the state of Himachal Pradesh year 1999 honorable supreme court case here they have explained what is especially skilled not taking much of time there are three important point which you should also look at when you are addressing in the court of law any expert opinion that is the education of the expert number two is the experience and third one is the hand notes what I mean to say by hand notes or the metadata means that how you have reached to the conclusion say you there is a mathematics question and you have sold it in case you have given the correct answer also but if the method is not correct the whole sum will be challenged it will not be given you full marks likewise the procedure is very very important in forensic science so please learn this technology learn this method how to evaluate how to examine that the answer or the result given by the forensic expert is correct one it is validated don't limited yourself even whether you are a judge maybe a prosecutor maybe a whosoever you are as an actor of criminal justice system ask the forensic expert that please explain in a simple manner how you reach to this conclusion so this is very very important point then comes the important another another point which I want to mention that the forensic capacity building the capacity of forensic expert the laboratories needs to be built up and in the same section of section 1763 the parliament has given five year timeline to build up the capacity now it is the role of the government to provide this facility adequately at present the facility needs more and more augmentation which is still missing I think we have to build the capacity with the appropriately trained manpower the experts now one another point that how you can challenge a forensic report the important point is the maintenance of chain of custody suppose a sample has been collected from scene of crime you have you too have to ask that prove that's this sample was lying there whether there was any photograph whether there was any videography how can you prove that this was not implanted implanted or it was not being fabricated it had not been changed so chain of custody is very very vital you must understand the nuances of chain of custody I must have told you little bit more about chain of custody but because time is less but you must know what chain of custody is versus importance and how as defense lawyer or as a prosecutor also what the role of chain of custody is then comes that how you should interrogate or you can say cross exam a report for that my dear friend one thing I always say that unfortunately this is again a realistic phenomena whether one accept or not depend upon our own openness to accept the truth you see there are two type of person sitting or standing in the court of course the honorable judge is sitting but our defense lawyer or prosecutor as well as the expert forensic expert we must explain this expert does not know the legal language and most of the time our legal actors honorable judge the defense lawyer and also the prosecutor they do not know much about the forensic language so how can you think that without knowing the language of each other can there be there would be a proper communication so this communication gap is there whether we accepted it or not but this is a fact now how to bridge this gap my dear friends I always and we have instituted one university here and I'm the vice chancellor founding vice chancellor currently at edg that the forensic experts must know in their education curriculum in their pedagogy the basics of the law likewise the forensic science should be made compulsory segment of the legal education and don't think that forensic science is helpful only for criminal justice system this is a misnomer whatsoever you are talking even in arbitration don't you think that use of document examination the signature matching many other evidence there may be a digital evidence of course there may be many more evidence which are vital and important for your arbitration cases for for your corporate lowering for your business law so don't have this kind of understanding that evidence act or evidence study or this curriculum is only meant for criminal lawyers or criminal justice system so with this because I have already covered nearly say 45 minutes or so so I prefer if there is any question but at the end I want to tell one more thing before I conclude that forensic expert or you can say not don't use the forensic expert in terms of section 45 and section 39 in the new law the term is expert so expert can be you know classified or grouped in two parts number one the scientific expert and another maybe no scientific expert because if you see section 45 then it is the first part is the art the expert on art maybe foreign law there is science also so don't get confused that expert can only be from the science background but for science background the reproducibility and other things are more vital in case of known science experts so with this I once again thank you Mr. Vikas and the entire means the people who are sitting here and I will be very happy I think there is one question but I am just giving the dias to Vikas for his comments and then I would like to talk and address the questions if any thank you very much once again. Thank you Mr. Goswami as we had heard that you had taken us to the journey of forensic sciences etc since we had explained that we will be taking a session in the bilingual but the flow of the English kept on if you could just summarize this entire the thing in a gist of 5 to 10 minutes in Hindi it becomes easy that people can actually understand on that part. Oh well but I tell you one thing I actually I just missed it I love talking because I am from the Hindi heartland so I have no problem in speaking in Hindi but who really want more insights my own channel with my name Dr. GK Goswami on YouTube channel there are very huge you can say very long three hours two hours type videos giving the entire scope of everything and those are mostly in Hindi because I was asked most of my friends and others to speak in Hindi but anyway so who is an expert especially skilled person means who will be the expert who is specially skilled how will you gauge this specially skilled how will you identify how will you identify there are three main points in it in which you can do anything in the procedure of your courtroom number one is his education whatever expert they call you scientific expert so that part is what is his experience and third is what is the basis of the report what is the metadata as I told you there is a question ok now you have written the answer do we just look at the answer or the procedure I think its procedure and its final answer so the final answer we just don't consider it as the final answer that is why we need to fully understand it and I have also told that the forensic expert or the opinion of the forensic expert the advice the opinion that is not a bad thing on our court but it is very important because it is a corroborative evidence so you have to understand and interpret it it helps a lot if you believe it is eye witness eye witness it may be a lie but whether it is a lie or not the forensic evidence can be used as a corroborative evidence that is why it is very important similarly I came to the court about the DNA I did not speak much English much English so you might have understood but today DNA forensics are very useful and I want to tell you one more thing in the world of full forensic science there is only one such DNA science called DNA forensic called DNA fingerprint which was born in science first in the tree and later in the court the other science fingerprint was never used by any scientist the police also disputed whether the two were our seven inspectors but most of the forensic science tools were made for this purpose there was not much scientific rigor that is why many of the science are also challenged like I tell you about the challenge which is called junk science and on junk science there is a good book of Chris Fabricant if you want to read it Chris Fabricant he is from the US very good friend of mine because I visited my work on Innocence project so there he has a very big group and he has written a book based on his entire experience which is called junk science which means the name of the science should be removed and one of the important is the bite mark there is no evidence of bite mark in the same way there is a detection and detection technique which is called a lie detector which is called narco analysis or brain mapping so all of these can help you in investigation but they do not have any evidence which was the case of the Supreme Court of the State of Karnataka in 2010 it was a very important case so in this way you can use the evidence but I also have to say that this procedure should be correct the chain of study should be correct which you took a sample and could not do any tampering it should not be like changing it it should not be like doing some work in a report which was a very popular case yesterday there was a college in Greater Noida there was a lecture in the school there was a conclave so there was a Chief Justice of High Court he retired last year he also did a case by chance incidentally it is an important case of the State of NCT versus Khursit it is a case of 2018 I will tell you in this and then I will give my word what happened in this there was a child he was raped and he was killed after killing Khursit there was a lot more evidence like in the medical legal injury the child was injured on the private part there was a lot more evidence in this case when the child was not seen in the evening he saw the child he was near the house so all the evidence was against Khursit but the DNA was cleaning it the DNA report was in the accuser's favour the DNA was not matching in other words okay so giving more importance to the DNA the trial court also filled it and in the High Court there was a case what happened by chance that within 4 weeks there was also a case in which the DNA was in the accuser's favour all the evidence was against him and it was all the cases of the pox so in this case the judge's bench in Delhi High Court suspected that there was no problem in the DNA report so they told the sample to some other scientist in the lab and when the new press report came it was matching that means the report was wrong after this the judge's bench in the other 3 cases they also ordered retesting and believe me that case in all 3 cases matched with the accuser so the honorable judge in the bench there was a CBI inquiry and I was also a CBI joint director so I will not share more details about that case but ultimately what I mean to say what I want to highlight what I want to underpin I want to say that science is a very good thing but don't close your eyes don't accept it challenge it ask its metadata how you analyzed it there is no problem now you have a case of Madhya Pradesh March 19, 2024 after 3 trials it has been agglomerated death penalty twice it is a very important case whose interest is Madhya Pradesh this was the first judgment in the Supreme Court on December 18, 2019 then it went to the trial again the trial again then it was given death penalty then this reference Madhya Pradesh this time it was very true then they passed the stricture then it happened again so there are many challenges in many other cases Navin's case recent case of 2013 I think October case death penalty has been reversed the death penalty was acquittal despite the DNA and other were matching so I mean we don't consider science as a gospel truth science can be a gospel truth but with science when a human element is connected the human element can make a mistake so with these words Vikas Ji the truth will be fulfilled and now if we have any questions if you have any questions I can take them up MHA has MHA has launched cyber voluntary program and see this initiative implementation is not effective across the state of nation any thought that it how it can be made better I have a lot of work in cyber in cyber in fact I have a schedule my talk is at 2 o'clock you can join in it in April I think there is no problem in technology there is a problem to implement it if we don't have trained manpower in any field cyber or any field then it will be a challenge if you see cyber cyber scope is increasing first here its chief Ram before going to US when I came back from CBI I have seen a lot of close cases in CBI I believe financial forensics there is no crime in today's date leaving home there is little if there is any organized crime there must be a line of money and I would like to say any crime is used whether we can find it or not this is my experience so the use of cyber we only keep it mobile phone, telephone we only keep it this way the crime of cyber you should see the cyber space and in today's date whatever we are doing whether there is less education that too in today's date is using the cyber space mobile phone we are using all social media so I would like to say this is also a revelation in today's date the biggest threat is common a lot of people who are with us don't get trapped that they can do sexual transactions sexual talks sometimes they record sometimes in such instances I will tell you a small story you will get a little sensitization I was in Delhi I had a deputation I didn't want to take anything from my regular police I was in Noida I was in Rajiaabad I was coming SSP about 3 years back in 2007 I got a call at 9.30 and he told me you are GK Goswami yes I am you are SSP Agra yes I am I am going to commit suicide now you think you are not in the police you are not an official and someone started telling you and that is the last time suppose if he committed suicide then the last call would be mine so someone would ask me what is the matter with you so I was little scared what is the matter why are you telling me I asked him did you get your number and I thought I will tell you before I die now I am very worried so I asked him what is your problem so he told me he told me on some social media and the girl on the other side of course she would have been personified so he talked to me he was a little sexual he was over toned and then he said I want to see you naked and he took off his clothes after 12-14 years and then he came we will put your photographs we will circulate it in the public in the public domain because of that he was terrified so I told him before I told him did you tell anyone that you didn't tell anyone that you are quiet so you tell me that nothing happened he did not say anything I told him that a photo can be made of anyone and anyone can put their head in it and the rest of the body he said you know the morphing so he said don't worry you will google it later and see what is the morphing anyone can get a photo of a morphing so many heroes are running such dirty photos if anyone asks you don't worry he was very happy he said he will have a father and mother so he told me to give him my number and you tell uncle he said I don't have anything that is how he was consoled okay today's time sex torsion becomes a very very problematic issue and you will assume that many people because of social stigma and that this becomes a very very phenomenal problem we should do something for this as far as your mhg you will launch any program programs are very good but in its execution till we don't have adequate manpower adequate means number one and number two the sufficient quantity of the trained manpower number three very important point is the adequate machinery because the programs and softwares which are required because cyber crime friends can sit anywhere if you are in jurisdiction you can go there twice or four times but no one knows where they are sitting and especially in the bank in today's date we need a lot of awareness that's why this awareness program I will tell you a small example I will tell you a small example whenever you have this money you can use it what is it called P.T.M or any other UPI No UPI you can't use it you can scan it you can scan it so money can only go whenever someone is telling you to scan it then you will understand whether you are paying or not Q.R.Court Q.R.Court is correct Q.R.Court has a simple formula that if you pay Q.R.Court nobody will give you back so be cautious on this point these are very simple things so prevention is better than cure if we take preventive measures you will see educated people all the data a lot has happened that you don't have to hack the whole system you don't give the whole thing as a team the whole system starts operating in the other person Q.R.Court Q.R.Court Q.R.Court Q.R.Court Q.R.Court Q.R.Court Q.R.Court Q.R.Court our manager will get the email or my gmail and your mail and your password will change periodically and kindly don't put your password in your mobile we have seen many times that 90-80% of your passwords are in your mobile it is very easy to track so if we take a little precaution we can do a lot there were some questions like Elaborate Explain this information you are saying that you will have it on Google please write on YouTube my name is DK Goswami then you will get that channel and that conversation Q.R.Court Q.R.Court Q.R.Court Q.R.Court That is also in praise and you have elaborated it very nicely. Next is respected age of the ink. How is that determined? For that you must have heard about carbon dating. Carbon dating, carbon used to have two isotopes C12 and C14. Those who have studied C, because my background is chemistry, I can explain it better. See, its atomic number is 6, but the atomic weight is 12 and the isotopes are 12. The isotopes are for proton, so it is determined by them. This technology is available, but not everywhere. But you can determine it. We have just bought a new equipment by doing VSC. You can get to know it better than that. I just tested it yesterday and found out that it was in some lab. So you can tell it very clearly. So today's technology is available. There is no problem in determining whether it is the same ink or not. So technology has improved over the period of time. It can be done. We have just concluded with the facility which we have provided. Basically, our institute is called UP-SIFSA. UP State Institute of Forensic Science. The beauty of this institute is that we have made three verticals. Two verticals are common. The pedagogy will be different. The first is crime scene management, which is very important for forensic study. The second is laboratory work, analysis, accreditation, and all the procedures, education, experience. Experts should be good and their training should be good. But the third and most important point that we have put in it is I again retreat nowhere in the world. Because I had the occasion to visit the best laboratory across the globe over the period of time in the last 20 years. So the biggest challenge in this is that our experts give you an opinion. They do not give you evidence. Because of our ignorance, we consider it as evidence. So the biggest challenge that we are addressing here is how to convert expert opinion into credible evidence. This conversion is very much required and asked for. So how to do this conversion? How will it fit in the case? How will the expert know where it will go? What is the evidentiary value of this? This is the work of our projection side. And of course later that will be a close examine by the defense lawyer. So this segment or this vertical is very well taken up by our institute. Our institute is dedicated for forensic science. So the equipment that we have brought in the last 6 months I can only leave one National Forensic Science University. Because that dedicated university is at least 18 years old. Our birthday is now 6 months. So we will not get the equipment that we have. So in the next 6 months we will be having and we have introduced 3 courses. I would like to tell you one more thing. We have brought the course of BSc Forensic Science LLB for 5 years. Like BABLLB, BALLB and BCLLB. We are also bringing BSc Forensic Science LLB. So right now we are bringing more LLB like this. Criminal Law and Forensic Science. And Cyber Law and Forensic Science. So our courses are with Forensic Science. It is a very huge campus having in-house capacity with the single-seated room with latrine bathrooms. Government of UP has a very prestigious project for them. And this year we are introducing, we have already published the advertisement is there. We are inviting applications for admissions. So that is the procedure is on. So those who want to see and visit our website upsifs.org So you can just have a look. If you add UP Forensic Science LLB, it will pop up. We have advanced it a lot.  This was part of my institute which you have patiently heard. Thank you very much once again. Thank you sir. Thank you very much. I hope that your knowledge sharing will continue. And those who are listening, stay healthy, stay healthy and stay with us. And those who have not subscribed to the channel, subscribe to the channel. Like and share the video. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Have a nice time.