Good afternoon. Welcome to the webinar. My name is Eric Porscheau, Institutional Advancement Director for the Foundation of the American Institute for Conservation. On behalf of the foundation, welcome to today's webinar, Cost-Effective and Sustainable Packing, Moving and Storage. This webinar is part of FAIC's professional development program, meeting the needs of mid-career conservation and collections care professionals. Funding for the presentation of this program was provided by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Additional funding was provided by the Foundation of the American Institute for Conservation, the Endowment for Professional Development, which is in turn supported by the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation and donations from members and friends of AIC. AIC membership dues were not used to prepare or present this event. This grant and endowment funding helps keep FAIC's programs affordable. Your registration fee represents less than half the direct costs of presenting the program. Also, if you have not already done so, we encourage you to register for the companion piece to this webinar, examining the environmental impact of exhibitions and loans using the lifestyle analysis tool. And that will take place next week, Tuesday, December 8th, and is also co-presented by the AIC Sustainability Committee. Before we start, I have a few housekeeping announcements. Today's presentation will be recorded. A link will be sent to all registrants, and a copy will eventually be made openly available on our YouTube channel. Questions will be collected through the questions chat box found in the control panel on the right side of your screen. We're going to read questions out loud so that everybody can hear and the panelists will be able to respond. And most questions will be held until the end of the program. If your control panel, that right-hand panel closes, you can open it again by clicking on the small tab in the upper right corner of your screen. And if you want to keep the control panel open at all times, go up to the top, click on View on that tab, and then uncheck the Auto-Hide the Control Panel option. So the default usually is that it will hide if you haven't used it for a while. Your viewing screen, where the program slides appear, can be made larger or smaller by clicking and dragging the lower right-hand corner. Well, FAIC, thanks the organizers and instructors who are sharing their time and talents with us also generously. We are so glad that you could be here today, and I now turn the microphone over to Geneva Griswold. As soon as I unmute her. There we go. All right. Hello, everyone. On behalf of the AIC Sustainability Committee and my co-host, Christian Hernandez, I would like to thank you all for attending today's webinar. The final program is 90 minutes in length. The first hour's presentations will address how institutions reduced waste during packing for exhibition or collections move, developments in green housing and storage solutions, and useful systems for organizing materials during these processes. So as Eric mentioned, we do encourage you to type questions into the chat bar during the program. Eric may pose a few of these between speakers and the rest will be collected for a final Q&A session at the end. Additionally, several polls will be initiated throughout to better understand your needs and interests. As Eric brings up the first poll, I would like to introduce our first speaker. Simon Lambert is a co-founder of ReOrg and the Preservation Development Advisor for the Canadian Conservation Institute, with a focus on preventive conservation and experience in a variety of international collections care projects. Simon, the floor is yours. Hi. Can everyone see my screen? Is it good? Right now we're looking at the poll. Okay. Let's see. Has everybody had a chance to respond to the poll? Yes. I guess 95% have voted. 71% of our audience are from museums and historic sites. 13% from libraries and archives. And 5% each for the other three choices.  What role do you play within your institution? Well, we have about 88% to voted so far. And the middle choice, a member of a conservation team at an institution was selected by 41%. 24% are other staff at an institution with a conservator on staff. 16% are not at an institution or in private practice. 14% are other staff without a conservator. And 5% are all alone conservators at an institution. And Simon, you should have the screen. You have to hide the poll results to enable screen sharing. Okay. Sorry. That's okay. That should do it. Okay. Can you see my screen? I think we're good. Okay. Great. Thank you, everyone. My name is Simon Lambert and I'm from CCI. And oops, I'm going to be talking about sustainability and storage reorganization. I just want to acknowledge the work that was done to develop Reorg, which is a step-by-step tool to reorganize storage that I'll be briefly introducing later. I want to acknowledge the work of the International Center for the Study of the Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property, or ECROM, and also UNESCO. So without further ado, most of you or some of you will be familiar with this diagram, which shows the three dimensions of sustainability. So we have the social, the environmental, the economic, and various overlapings of those dimensions also as well. So what I'm going to be focusing on today is mostly on environmental and economic. Although I promise at the end I will get into the social a little bit as well. But mainly, to be sustainable, there should be kind of a productive balance between all three dimensions, and that's what we call sustainable. Now, I want to invite you to think about storage areas that you might have seen or that you either work in or hopefully for those who are alone conservators and their institutions, if this kind of picture looks familiar or resembles a situation that you have seen, I hope that it's not quite as bad in your institution. But this is a disorganized storage area that we can see here. And I thought that to begin this talk, I would think about, you know, in applying the Reorg methodology, how would I go about it doing it in an unsustainable way? So how could I do an unsustainable Reorg? And that'll help us kind of figure out how to do it in a sustainable way. So first of all, if I'm looking at reorganizing my storage, and basically my building is still okay, I would probably try to build a new fancy storage facility with all the bells and whistles, even though I don't need one. Another thing that I might do to be unsustainable, well, this as a consequence, building a brand new fancy building would really impact my carbon footprint. So you'd have a lot of embodied carbon in those materials that you're using and you'll learn all about those probably next week during the talk about the life cycle tool for museum loans. But you'd have basically a bigger impact on the environment by doing that. And maybe what you might do as well is kind of add some big windows so that it makes it really challenging to control the environment in my storage spaces. So you do all those kinds of features that would really increase that impact on the environment. You might also leave all the lights on, and that could be also beneficial by fading your collections. All the things that are most sensitive to light damage would get a double bang for their buck. You might also try to replace everything, even though it's still good and it still works fine for the collection. It's still safe for the collection with conservation grade materials, because you just need conservation grade materials. So you would replace all your wooden shelving with, you know, powder coated metallic shelving. You would replace all your acidic boxes by acid free boxes with acid free tissue. And that would increase also the amount of materials that go into your carbon print, and you would also be sending extra things to the landfill. So you really are getting a double benefit here, so that's great. Also what you might do is you might specify tighter RH control and temperature control than you need. So if you have plus or minus 10 all year round, or if you're able to manage it, your RH to keep it between 75 and 25 all year round, and your collection, you're seeing no damage in your collection, and everything seems fine.  So that's how you would go about being unsustainable in a storage reorg for those three elements.  So sustainable choices, if we're going to make sustainable choices, where's a good starting point for determining what I need, what I don't need, what's nice to have, what's essential to have, where to begin. So I think the most important principle that we need to focus on is the vulnerability of the collection. So your collection, which is represented by the screen box, which may look nothing like your collection, but it's still your collection, and you have the agents of deterioration in the red box. And so the overlap between the collection and your agents of deterioration is that area of vulnerability. So what this means is your collection might not be all vulnerable to the same agents or to the same degree. And so it's when you're trying to decide, do I need that acid-free box is to understand, well, the materials that I have in my collection, are they vulnerable? Are they sensitive to that agent, which is pollutant? So are they sensitive to those acids? So a really quick and dirty way of looking at this, which you probably already know, is splitting organic and inorganic. And this is just a very broad generalization of different agents of deterioration on the left side. And just which part of the collection is organic and inorganic are more sensitive or vulnerable to those agents? So you can see just very quickly, and you can contest these, there's always exceptions, but this is just a generalization. The organic materials are going to be more vulnerable or sensitive to most of the agents. So already that's a good starting point to understand, so looking at your collection as a whole, is it mostly organic or mostly inorganic? And I'm going to be focusing on these three agents, because that's the one we highlighted before.  And so one of the ways that you can go even deeper into this study of the vulnerability is by going to our website, the Canadian Conservation Institute website, has a section in the Preventive Conservation and Agents page on the different agents. So one of them that I'm going to show now is called Incorrect Relative Humidity. And you'll get all the links that are mentioned at the bottom of the page. You'll get them in a document after this webinar, so you don't have to sit there and write them down. But if I go in the Incorrect Relative Humidity section, I'll find that there are four different types of incorrect relative humidity. So there's relative humidity above 75%, that's where you're experiencing an increased mold risk. There's another incorrect relative humidity is critical RH. So some types of material don't very much like to be outside of a certain range of RH. So either they like it above a certain value, or below a certain value, or exactly at a certain value. So this is the case with a lot of mineral collections, and you'll see minerals kind of starting to crumble after it gets too humid or too dry. And so that's a specific problem. There's also another type of incorrect relative humidity, and that's the RH above zero, and that sounds a bit strange. But when you have any water vapor at all in the air, certain materials really don't like it. A lot of archival materials, magnetic media, some paper-based materials, because the water reacts with those materials and starts to degrade them internally. So these are inherently chemically unstable materials that really don't like any humidity at all. So a drier environment is preferable for them. And then another kind of incorrect relative humidity is the one that we're most comfortable with or talk about more, is the RH fluctuation. So that's when plus or minus five, plus or minus 10, plus or minus 25. This is what normally comes to mind when you think of incorrect relative humidity, but that's just one of the four kinds. And the reason why I'm giving you all this information and introduction is because on that webpage of the CCI website, if you go into the relative humidity section, you'll find this lovely table here with actually four tables for the four different types of incorrect relative humidity. And if I'm trying to find out what are the things that I need to be more concerned about in my collections in my collection, then I use these tables this way. So I go from right to left. So the very high sensitivity things, and that is sensitivity to RH above 75%. So I'm looking at the right column first. Do I have anything like this in my collection? If I do, then I need to focus on these specifically for sensitivity to high RH. And then I can go down and look at the ones that are medium and low. But I'm always focusing on the very high first. Just to see, as a first step, do I have any of these things? If I do, then I need to be worried a little bit about them. And then I need to do more investigation. So critical RH, again, you see that there's nothing applicable here, so don't need to worry about that one. And then RH above 0%. So the first things I'm going to be looking at are there in the right column. And I'm working my way after that towards the right for the things that are a little bit less problematic. Same thing for incorrect temperature. So I'm going to be looking at the things that are in the right column first. Do I have any of these things? If I do, then these are more problematic. So when you start to understand the parts of your collection that are most vulnerable to that agent, then that's when you can start to make choices about, are there any things that need a special environment? Or is all of my collection, does it require a special environment, or only parts of it? So that's where you start to parcel off the problem and really target what needs to be targeted first. Another question that we had was about the building. So that's one of the areas where I could be really unsustainable. And I said when my building is still okay and still safe for the collection. So let's say I have three different collections and they are currently located here in my building. So I have my ceramics in the attic, the textiles in front of a window, and the archives in the damp basement. So are there things that I can do as part of a storage reorg to improve the conservation conditions for those collections without necessarily building a new building? Well, I could send the textiles in a room that doesn't have windows, or I could just block the windows. I could send my archival material out of the basement and into a dryer space. And the ceramics are probably fine, probably everywhere. So I could put them somewhere else. So that's kind of a very quick way of talking about that aspect. The fittings and materials issue. So that's the pollutants agent. And what we really need to be concerned about first are the most acid-sensitive objects. They're mostly an acidity problem. So a lot of the materials that we use for storage or for to coat our walls or floors, we use for boxes, for shelving units, all of those things. Some of them release acid vapors and acidic vapors. And many objects, or I should say some objects are particularly sensitive to that. So we have a list here of those kinds of objects that are the most acid-sensitive objects. That's not to say there aren't others, but these are the ones that react the most. So metals, color photographs, some papers that aren't already acidic. Shells, coral, limestone, cellulose acetate. So these are the things that are to worry about first when you're selecting objects, you're selecting products and materials for storage. And what we're mostly concerned about here is prolonged contact with between those acid-sensitive objects and the products that release acidic vapors or being in an enclosure with very few air exchanges. So those acid-sensitive objects being in enclosures that are made of these materials that release the acidic vapors. So these materials can be things that are like wood or wood products. The most problematic wood is probably oak. And then you have a whole range of different degrees of acidity that's released by other types of wood or wood products.  When they are either in contact or in presence of acid-sensitive objects in a tight enclosure. Cardboard, mostly acidic boxes, when they are in contact with acidic-sensitive objects. Plastics, PVC, cellulose acetate, vulcanized rubbers, et cetera. Those being, again, in contact or in enclosures with those acid-sensitive objects. And the same thing for foams. So it's not to say that we need to get rid of all of our wooden shelving, we need to get rid of all of our acid-sensitive boxes or acidic boxes. It really depends on what's actually in contact with them and what is actually in them. So if you want to deepen this understanding of the interaction between acid-sensitive objects and products, I encourage you to visit our website again under the Agents of Deterioration, the Pollutants section. And also this nice technical bolton written by Jean-Tétreault about coatings for display in storage in museums. And the links are there for you to download this for free. So why Reorg is a sustainable approach? So why are we promoting a sustainable approach within a storage reorganization? Well, just as a reminder, that storage reorganization is when you start from a situation of complete chaos and you try to create order within the same space. So it's not the same thing as storage planning where you have a collection and you have a nice new empty space and then you want to put that collection inside the empty space. That's storage planning, but we're interested in reorganization. So the advantages of Reorg is that you're using your existing infrastructure and you are reusing existing fittings and materials when they are safe. And I encourage all of you to go and visit Reorg.info, which is a website that has all of the Reorg materials where you'll be able to see the step-by-step Reorg methodology. And I just want to say that later in 2016 on the Echrom website, we'll be able to publish a new resource. So it's a Reorg museum's workbook. So it's a step-by-step, it's even more user-friendly than whatever was on the website. So it's more of a workbook approach where you can take some worksheets with you and work inside your storage area and this will be available electronically in 2016. So be on the lookout for this resource. Now, I just wanted to show you some examples of what we're talking about. So some Reorg participants who have undergone Reorg training, the kind of solutions that they came up with in their own storage area. So just really creative use of materials that you wouldn't think to be safe for collections. Here we have 2x4s used in various ways to store long and skinny objects on the left. Here in the middle shelving units made entirely out of plywood and 2x4s protected with an SFOAM lining. And we have on the right canoe stand that was made with 2x4s and various padding materials. Here's another example of using kind of commonly available materials that you wouldn't think are storage materials to store a collection. So this is a wooden crate that was repurposed and covered with cotton fabric and on which chains were hung to get a collection of masks that was previously being stored on the ground. So just by using very simple, readily available materials we're able to create a better condition to store these collections. And here is another storage idea from New Caledonia and this is just the adaptation of a regular shelving unit to store objects that are again long and thin. So there's different ways to use the materials that you have and it doesn't mean that you don't always need to buy something custom built. That's museum standard. There's a lot that you can do with the materials that you have and I think that's what I'm trying to say to you today. So I did promise that we'd look at the social element and I want to show that now. We in Canada have been doing a Reorg Canada training program and we've selected five institutions that are spread across the province of Ontario as a first project. And these institutions are all working at the same time together on a storage Reorg in their own museums. So throughout the year, this project just ended recently in October. And throughout the year, so from October 2014 to 2015, they've been working on their projects and they have really taken this and ran with it. They have engaged their community in their Reorgs. They've used their Facebook pages to highlight the progress. They've opened up their galleries that they use as temporary swing spaces in order to show to the public something that normally remains back of house. They brought it to the front of house. They've featured objects that were found in their storage areas throughout the Reorg process. And they have highlighted them on their Facebook page and that sometimes created a lot of enthusiasm from the community. And they said, oh, I remember that sign when I was a kid and I remember where I hung. Can I come and see it at the museum? So they've really kind of created this. They opened up this dialogue between them and the community about storage and about collections care. And I think it was really, really successful. Another aspect that falls under the social dimension is that they've engaged volunteers in a new way. So just really transferring the knowledge that they've gained throughout the training to their volunteers and the people that are helping out. Another way that some groups have engaged their community is through behind the scenes tours. So some groups did a behind the scenes tour before the Reorg, which you wouldn't think to do necessarily. You want to show the nice reorganized storage area, but they actually thought it was important to show the starting point of their project. And so they showed what the situation was before and where we ended up after all the work that we did. And so this was really, really popular. And another thing that was done was to engage the media. So all of the teams sent out press releases of their projects when they started, when they got their funding before and after. So they got their media and the general public really, really involved. And it really showed the benefits of reorganized storage, not only to the institution, but to the wider society as a whole. So it was really, really successful. And so to end, I'd just like to mention that a sustainable Reorg, a sustainable storage Reorg, should engage the community if it's to be successful in the long term, if it's to yield positive results and should be cost efficient. So you should look at ways to use your resources wisely as long as it's safe for the collection. And ideally you would really want to have a lower impact on the environment. And that's really at the core of Reorg is making the best with what you have. So I thank you for your time and I look forward to any questions you may have. Thank you very much. Thank you, Simon. We actually do have some fairly complicated questions, but I think we will hold those to the end. And sorry, we're changing screens here. And I believe Geneva will be introducing our next speaker. All right. Our next presenter is Ashley McGrew. Ashley is Chair of Publications for Pack-In or Preparation Art Handling Collections Care Network. He's also a preparator at the Cantor Center for the Arts at Stanford University and an editor for Stash. Storage techniques for art, science and history. Ashley's work draws upon practical solutions within both institutional and commercial collections care. Ashley, take it away. Thank you very much. Let's see if my screen will come up. By the way, while it's happening, I can go ahead and start. Basically, I'm a preparator and I'm going to try and reproduce as much as possible of a previous workshop that was done as a part of ASC's annual meeting. And so I'm going to be talking fairly quickly to try and include as much as possible. You can see the title of the thing there. And you can also see if you want to find out more about us, go to www.packin.org. Ashley, you should have the mouse and the keyboard control. All right, I'm not advancing for some reason. There we go. No, no we don't. So this worked last time. Well, are you ready to share your desktop? I can do that as an alternative. Let me get into that, sorry. Hold on just a second. Do not see anything yet, I don't suppose. Well, I haven't turned the desktop over yet. Okay, very good. Yeah, there we go. Okay, so I've turned over. You'll need to start sharing your screen. Do we have anything yet? Yes, perfect. All right, very good. There was a slide I was putting up to begin with sharing the title of the original presentation. Very much relates to it. Here are some of the people that contributed images and speakers as well. Basically, in terms of packing, one of the things that is the very worst that you could do is what we do now, which is the use of these custom gluten crates that's very kind of unique to the Northern Hemisphere or North America in particular. So we're looking in this conversation about different alternatives to that and a focus on systematic or cyclical packing approaches that will be more efficient, more flexible to be able to provide for reuse. Also, utilizing resources in the sense of having effort and resources go into mouths that can be used for different purposes, including storage, handling, and packing. And then there's a little bit covered here on storage applications that are kind of related. One thing just to point out, if you're moving collections, you're not really in the sustainable arena because by nature you're using oil-based petroleum products to just move things pretty much anywhere. Even if someone's using a material that is arguably sustainable because it's like farmed wood, a lot of that gets you from China, so that kind of undermines that effort. There is one thing that's just kind of interesting, not so much because it's instantly usable, but because it points out that things are possible, and that's this product that is owned currently by a sealed air who does bubble wrap and ethyl foam. And it actually consists of agricultural waste that's inoculated with a fungus of different sorts where the mycelium will actually bind stuff together. So essentially you're making a kind of organic styrofoam. While that's very exciting and we certainly hope it gets used for us in the museum world, the whole function of that kind of product is that it works for one impact and then it breaks. So if you're ready to roll the dice, you can do that. You can calculate an acceptable loss rate the way you do with a commercial product, but we don't have that luxury. So we are basically stuck with some of the materials that are not so sustainable like a series of different kinds of foams. We can still minimize that, though. And one of the things we can do is create reuse. And in fact, that slide that had the crates up on pallet racks, those were not new crates. Those are actually crates that are available for reuse from a commercial vendor. You're not going to know about those if you don't ask for them. That's something that the use of that is on the increase here in the States, but it's still relatively rare. And where you do find a lot of other kind of reuse are in Europe. Here's one from the UK that these are rentable crates. The Netherlands seems to be a center for it. Here's crystal crates that have adjustable interiors. Most of these crate designs are best for 2D, so it's kind of limiting based on your collection. The most well-known one is the cradle crate. It also has adjustable inside. The same company, though, does use these stackable, lidded crates, small crates you see on the left. They've got sort of a beanbag kind of interior that people use over and over again. That doesn't do you that much good. You can find a similar product available from New Haven moving materials here. They have many offices across the United States. You see that on the right. There are other things you can rent as well. These are fairly ugly, but they are fairly functional. They're basically book carts, which if you're moving a collection of books can be good. These are also from New Haven, and were used in a move of the art school next to the museum I work in. The main thing to think about here is that they can be altered with a little bit of ingenuity and some understanding of basic principles of packing into other uses. Some things that have been tried, going again with something that's very durable and very lightweight and potentially stackable are these crates like hardening crates or cases. The problem with them is that they are hard to work with basically. These typically would be filled with foam to be cavity packed, which is not very sustainable, obviously, but they can also be like for tray packed for a smaller 2D. Those are some options. Another version of that is put out by Pelican crate case people that they're a little more durable. I understand there's a successful project that was undertaken to take. They do a lot of work for the military, and there was a successful project taking a missile crate and using it for rolled textiles for multiple uses in international travel. The big thing, though, in the big view and the realistic view is how you approach packing and doing so in a systematic way. That seems to be the most accessible and useful thing to be aware of. Here we just see a commercial pallet basically that has boxes of different sizes. You notice up on the top we have a layer of four. We have a layer of three here that kind of puzzle together. Being able to have different boxes that can be put together into a single cube allows you to have the flexibility to fit different objects in different ways, different weights as well. The most well-known version of that is probably National Museum of American Indian that used a collapsible three-part commercial pallet system during their move project. Here you can see the 10 box sizes that could be puzzled together to make that happen. That seems very limiting, but actually, when you get past the totem poles and the long weapons and kayaks and such, most of the collection did fit into two drawer sizes, the smaller being archaeological and the larger being ethnographic, that did fit quite well into a basic footprint of a pallet. In this case, you see the stack being created and puzzled together. These are the components when they're folded up, which is how they would live until they were being used. They'd be put together and loaded and sent down to Suitland, Maryland, where they'd be unloaded and sent back. Collapse like this again, you can see, it really adds up how much space they have.  In this case, they have a 10-mil corplast sleeve to create the walls of the box and then a molded top that clips together with those yellow clips. Interior components that were made by NMAI were cushions for different weight accumulations of the cube. They would be put underneath and side cushions would be put in. The whole thing is put together. In this case, these are stackable. That would be very, very important in this application and in terms of other sort of implications. Right here, we see that those units, when stacked side by side, basically fill the space in this factor trailer rental unit. When you consider that most art that's being shipped or objects being shipped in normal crates are usually not stackable and they only take up a fraction of the available space. Whereas this uses all of the usable space essentially. That red line indicates the minimum amount of space needed to be able to circulate the air for the air handling units. Also, the stacking also implies another potential use for these that has yet to be fully exploited. Here you see a bunch of pieces located on the loading dock. One of the things during the move process, actually, there would be times when the packing ends. I supervised the packing for this project and we would get ahead of the housing end. Luckily, that would not really kill them, especially if they could leave these things stacked up within storage. Actually, a good use of this came during another move project that took place a few years later in Los Angeles at the Southwest Museum of the American Indian, which was another kind of rescue situation where a failing collection was saved, and in this case it was done by the Autry Museum of the American West. You can see where in that case they had to get it out of a problem building and into an offsite storage building that did not yet have furnishings, but in this case it was not such a problem in that these stacked three high and three deep areas are very, very efficiently spaced. The way they're set up with the right equipment, one person can get in and safely get access to the material in there because we all know there's no such thing as a moratorium on exhibitions. In this case it's just a super efficient compactor storage. Luckily all the packing material they used in the interior as well as the units themselves were inert. Taking the same approach, the systematic approach in going back in time, this is a system that existed back in the days of Fine Arts Express, the first big company that basically popularized the use of the art shuttle that minimized costs for people moving their collections across the country. It was something called a MACPAC, which is basically a series of boxes that can be stacked together because they have the same footprint but have different depths to accommodate whatever materials are putting into them. They were typically shipped in a very, very simplified crate that you see here. There's primarily three quarter inch plywood and two by fours in the joints that make for a very broad blue joint. So they're very strong actually. And these crate shells would be reused with different configurations of the boxes inside. Over and over again, I worked in the New York office at FAA and we would see these things come and go and I always thought it was truly awesome how smaller museums were able to circulate their exhibitions or loans or what have you just by reusing them instead of having to pay for new crates. Here's an example from our workshop where you can see a stack of them with a four inch box at the top with an eight below that, a ten below that and a 12 at the bottom, which is the deepest. It's missing the six, which is very handy. The traditional way to pack was though basically cavity packing into a gray foam, hopefully your polyurethane ester. Not very efficient, not very sustainable, and basically you generate a lot of waste, and you're using a lot of material that's harder to recycle or whatever. What was interesting is looking at bringing some of the newer methods developed at NMAI back to the backpack, to that box system. In that move project we basically went towards highly visible packing systems where it's virtually eliminated loose fill and you can see what you're handling and it also enabled us to be able to pack objects that were in their storage mounts ahead of time, which is really handy. This was enabled to a large degree with use of a couple unusual materials for packing at that time. It has high density polyethylene, very, very thin polyethylene that doesn't seem to have plasticizers or slip agents, and is basically like a tissue, and it's very affordable. One source that's been tested repeatedly is this Husky brand, basically painter's plastic. On the right you see this stretch wrap, linear low density polyethylene, by good wrappers has also been tested in multiple institutions and seemed to fare very well. The plastic is worth noting is very inexpensive. You're basically looking at half a penny a square foot, so it's something any institution can take advantage of. If we look beyond that though, there are other things. When you're shipping 2D work, there's the use of the slip case for many years, and basically 3D slip casing is available in the form of pre-existing commercial containers. This is called a de-container, and it basically is something off the shelf that sits on a pallet, so it has the advantages in terms of safety of movement that you have when you move something by a pallet. You're only lifting it basically and inch off the ground, and you're not going to have a topple incident, and it's mostly recyclable. There you can see a material going into one of those, some of the newer product designs are trying to eliminate wood altogether, which is an admirable notion there, they have a corrugated cardboard skid. They can also be custom done by your art service people or within the museum. You see a stacking box system that's kind of unified on the left, you can see one on the right that has 2D objects designed to go into those slots. As well, another advantage of having commercially available systems in places, there are products that you can buy off the shelf, one being gusseted plastic bags that fit, that are pallet covers, and also in some cases, you might even want to use insulated covers to give you a little more protection in terms of temperature. The thing about these wood and cardboard containers is that it's not new, it's been done for a long time in some instances, here's an example from CCI who I love, they're very practical in their approach and those are wood strips on the ends only, where the joints go, and very lightweight and durable. National Park Service had a conservogram with a similar approach, although a little more simplified. Here's a real example of one where basically, Museum of the Midwest is putting together a show of gowns, textiles, that had four lenders in the Los Angeles area with a bunch of material from each, and they were going to be packed already in these wood board boxes that they were stored in, they just needed a way to basically carry them, and so a simplified box like this is perfectly affine and effective without having to go to the full, expensive, full crate, and because they're of a similar size, they basically are stackable as well, plus they just provide better access to some of these lenders' locations that don't have a loading dock. Finally, the thing that's most interesting that I've seen, looking at containerization or lack thereof to place in New Orleans, and it was a project for the Louisiana State Museum put together by Greg Landuzzi, and the staffing and management of the crew was done by the Lilliams Town Art Conservation Center, with the head honcho being Katie Cole-Brown, and the onsite supervisor being Allison McCloskey. The conditions that were dealt with there were the evacuation of the collection initially, where the biggest risk was not necessarily from the damage to the building itself. You can see they did have some leaks, but the big risk was the loss of power, and in that environment, if you can't maintain climate, you're basically going to be growing things all over all your objects. So the needless to evacuate it to a site where it could be taken care of in terms of minimal climate requirements, the closest place they could find a large enough space for their 200,000 objects was in Baton Rouge. This is an empty warehouse from a building supply company, and you can see they got the stuff there by hook or by crook, with whatever boxes and whatever manpower they could get together after the hurricane had hit. Our job was to, because I consulted on this with Lilliams Town, was to figure out how to most efficiently and effectively get it moved back into the new storage that had been renovated and improved in the meantime. Unfortunately, during that time, the collection set basically most of it on the ground in an area that is not protected from insects. So we had not only had to worry about that aspect of sort of pre-emptive past management, but also these were packed in a hurry. There was no guarantee they couldn't go back in the same boxes. They would have to be repacked to some degree. We didn't have condition reports to even really know what we were up against. In addition to freezing, we basically tried to focus on what do we know we want, and what we know we wanted is the use of high-quality storage and handling mounts that would minimize impact on the collection in use. What we decided to do to end up with that result and minimize the handling in the process was actually do away with containment results together. The way we did that was by utilizing these nexthel or wire carts, that metro carts, whatever you call them that are very popular these days and all sorts of aspects around the museum. In this case, they became basically a mobile crate with the addition of polyurethane convoluted foam, the eggshell kind of foam, where a couple layers of that was highly responsive to lightweight objects and heavier objects would sink down into it and see the positioning they need. Basically, with the use of this high-density polyethylene, the individual storage mounts or individual objects depending on their nature could be wrapped in a layer of that, placed on a shelf with other objects, another layer of high-density placed over that. The whole thing, all the objects could be secured onto the shelf itself using the stretch wrap that we discussed earlier. Then the whole thing would be encased in the layer of polyethylene and the overlap in the corners would be clamped shut avoiding the use of tape and enable us to reuse them with pipe insulation. Basically, they purchased a fleet of these that could be put on a truck to go down to be unloaded with the other units left on site to be packed, essentially, and then they just had a rotational system or as a cyclical packing system. Here you can see one of the major advantages as well is the mint building, which was the facility that we were moving the objects to had very limited access. Luckily, these carts could negotiate through the narrow passageways and could roll right up next to where the shelving is that they were going on to. You can see here that they basically could just cut loose, remove the outer layer, cut loose the polyethylene, linear low-density polyethylene and unwrap the top wrapper and basically put them straight on the shelf. We minimized the handling and created almost no waste in the process at all. Just as a little aside that came across afterwards was that even with all these extra parts that everyone I think always finds uses for, if you did have extra to use, they actually can now be configured into sort of a mini-compactor storage system. So that's an option we're thinking about. Here are some of the products that were mentioned. Thank you very much. I'm sorry if I went over. Well, thank you. Abigail, I think we have a quick question for him. Yes, this is a question from Hildegard asking, is the Kiva system available in Europe and or Germany? That's something I don't know the answer to. I think it's hard to imagine that it's not in some form. It exists here in a bunch of different forms. The key thing there, in my experience though, is you have to have knowledgeable people that are dealing with the interior packing. That's always the crux of it. Thank you. Geneva? All right. Thank you, Ashley. Our final presenter is Rebecca Fifield. Becky is head of Rebecca Fifield Preservation Services with experience working in the collections departments of several world-renowned museums. She serves as the chair of the AIC Collection Care Network promoting preventive conservation planning for all levels of institutions. So welcome, Becky. Thanks, Geneva. I'm going to transition our discussion now by talking about some of the social and economic aspects of how we care for our collections and how this supports organizational sustainability. I'm going to talk a bit about managing preservation work over time, how great storage sustains our organizations by making collections readily accessible to users, and I'm going to talk a bit about the spaces we work in and the work we're doing, and I'm going to talk about how we connect with our colleagues and the public about sustainability and caring for cultural heritage. There we go. Okay, so if you're participating in this webinar, you're likely familiar with the difficulties in getting attention for preventive conservation activities. And yet we know that for collections to be accessible for exhibitions, photography, and research, we have to protect them from damage. So in 2004, Heritage Preservation and IMLS collaborated on a survey of U.S. institutional preservation practices that resulted in the Heritage Health Index report and included in the survey were questions about storage, emergency preparedness, staffing, and policy. And yes, an updated report based on 2014 data will be available in 2016. So new data is coming. But what the 2004 project found was that less than 20% of private nonprofits of all sizes indicated that they had a dedicated paid staff with the responsibility of care of collections, and less than 12% of collections surveyed had their collections fully inventoried. And if you look at the chart on the right, it gets to be about 40% having no staff person available to care for collections in tribal and county and municipal collections. So not understanding what's in our collection not only makes it so we can't find it for our users, but we can't begin to prioritize what collections may need for specialized storage, such as Simon discussed in the rework project. So UNESCO has recognized the role of cultural heritage as the fourth pillar of sustainable development and is called for a mainstreaming of culture in the international development agenda. And preservation management is key for maintaining physical cultural heritage so it may fulfill that role. So I'd like to ask my first whole question now. Does your museum sustainability program include long term preservation management considerations or goals? And your answers may be yes, no, or we don't have a sustainability program. So we have about half of the participants have logged in so far. So give them a moment, about two thirds, three fourths, 80%. So far more than half say they don't have a sustainability program. I'll give this two more beats for last votes. We'll close the poll and share it. There are the results. Wow, okay, that was better than I expected. And I'd love to hear from you folks where your sustainability program at your institution includes long term preservation considerations. I would love to know how that's handled and I want to hear a talk on it at an AIC meeting in the future. So, but for and certainly 50% of organizations didn't have a sustainability program. I think this is amazing considering the amount of time we spend in caring for collections, especially those on display where we have to dust collections. The economics of dust project at the National Trust in the UK found that 75% of their staff time contributed to dusting collections in period rooms alone. And I think with that kind of input going into collection care, we need to consider it when we're considering organizational sustainability. So I would like to think about sometimes why some of the challenges we have about implementing preservation and thinking about it over the long term. I think that preservation takes place over hundreds of years and we as mere mortals can only be responsible for a fraction of that time. And at the same time, we're providing collection access through short term projects with concrete deliverables and deadlines such as exhibitions and application projects. And juggling these two sets of responsibilities with two very different time horizons can cause conflict in the balance of preservation and access. So I would like to say that if collections drive our exhibitions and programming, then collection preservation is the basis of organizational sustainability. So we all know that collections that are well cared for in storage can more readily transition to use. Optimal storage limits or eliminates the need for costly conservation treatment in order to make the collection usable. I think many of us have had the experience of not being able to accommodate a researcher due to not having enough staff to work with them or there's a suboptimal storage crate that we just can't manage to get open in the time window we have to work with that person. Or we can't make objects available for exhibition because we don't have the time or resources to secure conservation treatment. And I think this is given preservation professionals a no reputation like no we can't when really I think of us as very creative people who figure out how to say yes on a daily basis. So let's talk about some ways which we can highlight how improved preservation management helps us say yes. Okay, we're going to create a vision and we're going to connect with our allies and we're going to wear our opt advisors while doing it. So we need to advocate that preservation sustains our organizations and it's worth doing well. We might need to ask a few questions such as what does successful access to collections in our institutions look like for various stakeholders? And what might that access look like in the future? What kind of things do we want to implement where different audiences that our museums work with want to access collections in certain ways? And what collections are expected to grow in importance for projected audiences and do our current preservation systems support that access? I think we also need to communicate data about how improved storage and preservation systems would improve how we serve collections now. If you serve a certain number of researchers, prepare a certain number of loans, prep for a certain number of photographs in a year, have your team brainstorm about how better storage or preservation systems might facilitate extending that outreach and share that with administrators. At the same time you're developing this vision, connect with institutional allies and collaborate with them to refine the vision. I think we've all been involved in projects where the right people aren't involved and that hinders the distance we can go with that project. And allies can come from any sector within the museum because we're all integral in some way to preservation and access to the collections. Your allies might be registrars, collection managers, preparators, curators, educators, development. People interested in emergency preparedness and business continuity such as IT, security facilities, health and safety and finance officers. That's pretty much anybody who you can corner in an elevator. Hey, share your message with them. A project that helps you bring together ideas about how to manage preservation and work better with the whole complement of colleagues that contribute to preservation is a collection risk assessment. And I think that the cultural property risk analysis model, which was developed by Rob Waller. It measures the probability and extent of specific risks to collections, enabling staff to prioritize the application of limited preservation funds to those risks, most likely to occur with the greatest damage to collections. And importantly, it's a project that helps build bridges with your allies from engineering, security, and other departments. I think we've all had that issue where we've not connected over preservation issues, and this is definitely a project that can help you do that. So a collection risk assessment helps us use our preservation funds wisely, lower overall collection risk by targeting the highest risks, and provides a tool for future preservation management while highlighting opportunities for preservation investment. So it's important to remember that through preservation, we're not just preventing damage, we're ensuring and enhancing access to cultural heritage over time. So let's think about ways we can raise visibility for preservation during our everyday work we're doing now. If you're a conservator during treatment documentation, indicate what specific preservation practices or resources could have prevented or limited the damage you are now treating, and report this annually to build data for funding support. If you're a registrar, a collection manager, technician, curator, preparator, others, how are we communicating to administration how the lack of robust preservation management systems impacts collection use? How are we documenting when we have to say no to users? Is there a preservation control that could have protected that access? Incorporate a preservation component into whatever system your institution is using to collect overall data about collection use. Annual reporting can be used to make decisions about needed preservation policy, procedures, and resources. I'd like to talk a little bit about sustainability of our staff. When museums cut the collection care staff, I would like to challenge are they actually saving money? Is preservation of collections considered to be negotiable when budgets are tight? And does this create greater risk for insurance when workers comp claims? Are we spending more in the long run on conservation treatment to make collections usable? I think cutting collection care staff also creates other inefficiencies as other staff attempts to juggle their responsibilities, which might also again increase insurance claims. In creating situations of burnout, the institution experiences hitting costs related to turnover and phased out positions. And I don't have enough time to talk about all the issues about sustainability and training of staff. I think that there is a real opportunity for the Sustainability Committee and Professional Committee at AIC to talk about training of conservators, collection managers, technicians, comparators, and the sustainability of what we have to put into now in our careers. I would, however, just like to bring up this really great training program. This is the Veterans Curation Program, and this has great social sustainability components to it. This is a project of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. They maintain millions of archaeological collections from their projects, and they developed a program in which they train veterans returning from overseas to catalog, photograph, and perform basic collections care for the collections. So it's a really nice combination of training, supporting cultural heritage, supporting our veterans, and also, again, supporting access to those collections over time. Let's talk about the spaces in which preservation work takes place, and how changing our spaces and thinking about this can make our practice sustainable and even energizing. Many of us have had to work in situations where health and safety were at stake due to poor ventilation, maybe small spaces hindered working with some objects or that really big blue board, cutting big pieces of blue board, or maybe the bright equipment wasn't available because of our space constraints. And when nonprofits gamble with staff safety and safety of collections, institutional reputation is at stake. So partner with health and safety staff or advisors to improve or create space that sustains both the work and the worker, because we've all been stuck in the basement at some point, I think. I also think that inability is at its best when we can incorporate the reuse of equipment and available space, but not if it introduces additional risks. So let's balance the reuse of found furniture with the sustainability of the staff. I think salvage tables and chairs at the wrong working height don't really meet sustainability goals if they lead to repetitive stress injuries and downtime. So some of the ways we can work on the spaces that we work in, survey colleagues as to what equipment, space, and skills they need to make their work better. Hold a brainstorming session. How can we improve work practice so that collections are more readily available for use? Just review processes, preparing work for exhibition, photography, loan, and other collection uses. And make that end goal about visitor experience. Don't get bogged down in the practicalities of what's going on now, but what could possibly be. And think outside of administrative silos. If you're in a larger institution, does every collection department need the same equipment like a mat cutter, sewing machine, washer, and dryer? The answer might be yes, but the answer might be no. If preparators have traditionally been scattered in spaces throughout the building, in what ways can creating a consolidated preservation workspace improve conditions, save on equipment purchases, allow investment in better equipment, and create a natural space to swap archival material scraps and underused tools and equipment. And then also think about what functions have traditionally not worked within the preparation space that you have right now, and what staff might work together in new ways to spark creativity. I also challenged someone to think about how great design can help preserve collections in our prep spaces. I think we've all seen beautiful conservation labs designed, but what about our prep spaces? I think that there's a high level of risk there for collections and workers, and that I think we should combine sustainability, health and safety, and design a great space, and then apply for a grant and combine that with an education component so we can educate other museums about the findings. So I think this would be really brilliant for the field. If you're a small institution, partner with local and regional museums to improve sustainable preservation practices. You could take advantage of equipment and supplies purchasing discounts. I'm from Maryland, hence the County Historical Societies from Maryland there. A project I'd like to highlight is Sustaining Places. This is a program that helps extend preservation of small museum collections in the mid-Atlantic. They have an equipment sharing program, which is managed by University of Delaware Museum Studies students, and it's funded by an IMLS 21st Century Museum Professionals Program grant. Smaller institutions can borrow things like mill-fisk vacuums and photography and environmental monitoring equipment. This project provides a little training on how to do basic collections care, and it helps smaller museums get introduced to best practices without making prohibitively expensive equipment purchases up front. Another idea is to host an equipment, tools and supplies exchange event. Participant institutions can benefit not only by cleaning out their equipment storage areas, but also acquiring items they may need. And this is a good way to swap archival supply scraps too. You could pair the exchange event with the training opportunities such as how to make tyvek pillows and weights, which you can get instructions to do on my website there, down in the corner. You could host tours of renovation or storage rehousing projects. Or you could host another idea is to host an informational exchange about how you get preservation done at your organization. AIC's collection care network created the collection care information exchange discussion framework. It's available at the AIC website on their collections care page, which you can see right here under publications and resources. You just have to scroll down to it. It's available for no cost. It's a very simple tool that's pretty much a bullet point of things to talk about when you get together with your colleagues in small institutions, or big institutions. And this tool builds preservation practice among partner institutions that may have limited funds for travel or conferences or workshops. And additionally, working together locally reduces the environmental impact of travel. And then in the end, create an outreach component. Let the community know how your institutions in your area are helping each other to boost preservation of their cultural heritage. So if anybody has done a swap event, I'd love to know about it. Or if anybody tries our collections care information exchange discussion framework, I'd love to hear how it went and any improvements we can make. Next question, we have to get the public involved. I think conservation treatment can show thrilling contrasts through before and after photography, but preservation work can't always do that. And our message to the public about preservation has to be about supporting the programs and exhibitions our public enjoys. So I'd like to have our final poll question here. How many working institutions that provide an opportunity for visitors to learn about preservation activities? And I'm excluding conservation treatment here like open conservation labs. If you have a website or maybe you do some tours, I'd love to know about that here. But this would really be about preventive conservation. We have about a third, well, 40% all coming in here. About two thirds say they do have some kind of opportunity. Great. We'll give it a couple more seconds. We're at 80% have voted. 86% going once, going twice. I think that may be it. So there are results. Great. I think for those folks, 66% totally blew me out of the water. I think that I want to hear more about what institutions are doing to share this information. Are they hosting websites like the Denver Art Museum or Colonial Williamsburg or the South Dakota Historical Society? The North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences, which we saw a couple slides back, has an open window on their paleontological lab, which highlights the real challenges of managing a museum collection. Maybe you could host a staff spotlight tour where just you have an informal conversation with a changing variety of staff members about what they contribute to preservation of a collection. Maybe you can pair maintaining a work of art, dusting a sculpture with an education session on what you're doing and maybe how to clarify collections at home. And I think we should really identify a preservation education component to all projects we're doing in the museum as much as we can. Like preservation and sustainability, I think we're educating our public about the long term about what preservation of cultural heritage requires. And we may not be able to assess the benefits of this work immediately or we need to develop tools to assess the benefits, but we're building greater awareness among our audiences over time. So to conclude, I'd like to just say we should think about what our institutions' stakeholders expect from our organizations in terms of sustainability and in caring for the collections it holds in public trust. Ultimately, reputation, organizational sustainability and care of collections are intertwined. I think as we're seeing currently with the Illinois State Museum closure and the potential loss of American Alliance for Museum accreditation. So think about how preservation activities support your institution's reputation as a steward of collections for your audiences, be they local, national or international. All right. And thanks very much. Thank you. Thank you. We have some time for questions. I know Abigail has been collecting many interesting questions, and I'll turn it over to her to start asking those. Okay. Great. We had a question for Simon, which is, what should an institution do about caring for their collection if they don't know what their objects are made of? Also, what about historic houses where the collection and visiting humans are in the same space? Okay. That's a good question. If you don't know what your collection is made of, I think the tables that I showed in my presentation allows you to come at it from the object types. So you'll know that they're paintings. You'll know that they're audio recordings. You'll know that they're video tapes. You'll know what they are. And so even if you don't know the composition, if you don't know if they're organic, inorganic, that's besides the point. You can actually probably better if you come at it from that end of things. And as far as historic houses go, within the context of a storage reorganization, I'm not quite clear what the question is, definitely if this institution has a collection that's in storage, there are ways to do a storage reorganization for that institution as well. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. This one is for Ashley. We have a question that is, what should we look for in crates if we are new to this field or this position? Wow. That's a very good question. And that's something as an organization for getting ready to address. There's a number of factors that are included. There are problems with those other commercial available crates where I would basically say two inches of cushioning. I think that's been an established thing for a long time at a bare minimum on the interior. Beyond that, you want to create as many sub-environments as you can within it, basically just to stabilize temperature humidity issues. But in terms of standards, they're kind of scattered. PACKEN does have some publications that are available that show illustrations of standard packing or creating approaches that you can find out about by going on our website. But in terms of a real concise kind of guide, that's something that we're actually working on right now. Good to hear it. We have another question. This one's for Becky. How do you balance using paid and volunteer staff when it comes to sustainable time management? There's so many things wrapped up in that question. I think we've all had really great volunteer experiences and not so great volunteer experiences. One is hiring the right volunteers for the job and hiring the right tasks and learning to delegate as well. I had a great volunteer experience with people when I worked in. You introduced me as a large museum person, but a lot of my volunteer management experience comes from working in small institutions. I used to work at one of those Maryland County Historical Societies, and I had a great collections committee. I would create things like padded hanger kits with instructions and I'd pack them up with materials and hand them out to my volunteers. That was a great way that I could boost my reorganization of my collection very quickly using volunteer labor and using appropriate skill sets. My collections committee were very handy with putting shelving together, so I was able to get new shelving put together very quickly with them. It's a combination of knowing your skill set and knowing your volunteers and meeting their needs as well in their volunteer opportunity, but also being able to know when it's not a good fit. We have a few questions coming in from the audience. Again, as a reminder, just go ahead and submit those. Even if we don't get to them today, we'll certainly make sure that we get you answers to send out later on. This one goes back to Simon. What are some suggestions you have for sustainably managing a collection that relies mostly on volunteers, such as material waste, sufficient use of time, etc. Increasing in institution sustainability often comes with pushback. How would you recommend convincing skeptical people who have to agree with you? Yeah, that can happen. I think one of the things about storage reorg, which is what I was focusing on for this specific talk, was storage is kind of a loaded thing and it has a lot of... It's kind of a sensitive issue because often it's something that's not seen by everyone that might, to various degrees, might have been neglected over time or you might not have time to devote the attention that you would like to do it. And so it ends up the way it looks like now. And so when someone wants to do something about it, you might get some resistance from that. So what's worked really well in the past is showing impactful before and after pictures of reorganized storage areas. So projects that have managed to overcome those issues and to do it successfully. And these are the kinds of things that we're working into our reorg material in terms of providing nice neat case studies that show different institutions starting point and details on the project and who was involved and how the results were achieved. And there are cases where it's a bit more challenging to get that buy in. And so one of my really close collaborators told me a story once about a very large institution, a very prominent institution that was facing really important challenges in storage. And the board kept on, you know, not giving that aspect priority and then kind of pushing it aside and, you know, no, let's focus on exhibitions, let's focus on exhibitions. And at one time, this person hired a professional photographer to come into the storage area and take really, really nice shots of what the storage area actually looked like and prepared a package at the next board meeting for all the people who were attending on the table for them. And then it got their attention. They're like, oh, okay, we need to do something. So I mean, it's a combination of showing the potential risk and showing the benefits. It depends on each situation, but basically it's putting the collection at risk and it's also preventing it from being used for the museum's activities. So that should get some people interested. Can I have in on this question too? Sure. I, yes, and I use the photos approach for emergency preparedness. It's really handy for that too. I also think about, it depends what are the reasons that the person is skeptical. Usually it tends to do with more work, but maybe you can identify how things, they are responsible for, can be benefited by sustainable approaches. Why are they resistant? And just demonstrating, hey, if we use this new system, this could also help you meet your goals. I think we have time for one last question. We will try to answer all the questions offline, but I know some people have other things to go to. Okay, this last one is from Vanessa. And this is to all of the presenters today. Is there a place where big museums can donate lightly used materials for smaller museums and institutions? Do any of you know of anything like that? No. I know in New York City there's materials for the arts. It's not museum specific, but if you have a certain amount, you will come to your institution with a truck. You can schedule a time and they'll come and pick it up. But it is something that has, you know, is really a regional component just due to the, you know, practicalities of shipping and storage and distribution of those materials. Sounds like there's an opportunity to expand that idea. Well, I really want to thank everybody for their time. I don't want to take advantage of your afternoon here. But so many thanks to Rebecca Fifield, Simon Lambert, Ashley McGrew for their presentations, to Geneva Griswold and Christian Hernandez for organizing this so well. To the FAIC staff, Abigail Chaudhry and Sarah Satrien for their help behind the scenes here. And we would like to ask you to do two things to help make programs like this possible. First, please, please, please fill out the evaluation form that you will receive by email this afternoon. Your feedback really helps us evaluate the workshop, the webinar and improve our future events. And second, just please consider a donation to FAIC. Your contribution is tax deductible and it helps support programs like this, along with scholarships for those needing financial assistance to attend in-person workshops. And the last pitch you have not already registered be sure to look for our program next week, Tuesday, December 8th on the Lifecycle Assessment Tool, a very interesting series of presentations. And we'll look for you there. Thank you all very much.