Okay. All right. We are going to get started here. So I'm going to call the meeting to order. So because we have some remote participants, I am going to ask that we do some introductions. I counselor Brown, would you introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Carrie Brown. I'm a council member from district three. Great. Thank you. And counselor Morton, go ahead. I am Jennifer Morton district three. Super. Thank you. Okay, and I think we are otherwise good to go. So just some logistics. So if you are joining us remotely, if you would change your name to your first and last name so I can address you. If you have that for the record. And then when you speak, if you would start by saying your name and where you live, and we are asking folks to keep their comments to two minutes or less. And we'll help you out with that. If you are speaking on any particular item, as we go through the agenda, make sure that your comments are germane to the topic. And if you wish to speak make sure that you are just recognized by me before you do. And if you have multiple questions, if you would ask all of your questions sort of together, consecutively that would be helpful because we don't really do like a back and forth in this setting. Yeah, I think that is it. Okay, so the next thing is to review and approve the agenda. I think that as for what is currently on the agenda, I don't think there's any adjustments that need to be made. Unless anybody has any different information. Have me suggest. Did you want to. I think that might be good to add an item about, you just guess it would be vacancy planning. Yep. So we'll add that to the end of the agenda. Actually, to be fair, let's add it to just before the executive session. Yeah. Okay. Anything else. That is it. Okay, so on to general business and appearances. This is an opportunity for any member of the public to address the council on any topic that is otherwise not on our agenda. You have something that is relevant to one of these agenda items that will come up and you'll be welcome to address it as we go. But if it's not on the on our agenda otherwise now is a good time to bring it up so. Yeah, we'll start with folks who are with us in person anyone in person wish to address the council. Go ahead. There's a lot to cover here. We can't seem to clear the leaves from the store brain so we've got water backed up in the crosswalks but we can yank the last we can find time to yank the last available bench for people to sit on on the nice days. It's just a symptom of a dysfunction. In a certain shelter away we can kick the can down the road on restrooms for a year after year, the publicly owned restrooms. Now we've locked in last week somebody locked the information booths, as if those pamphlets really need protection, whereas people have been sleeping in there, who are unhoused, and it just, it reeks of. I think confidence is not just dragon anchor it's cruelty to the point of sadistic. We've got people sleeping outside. We know it. We do nothing about it. We commissioned studies for day shelters. Try sleeping outside yourself. Just really get get get a little conscious. Close captions still aren't available I'm objecting to that once again. The closure the sign went out on the weekends, Friday or Saturday, several calls were made warning them that the sign was out. Everybody cleared the street last night, and then no construction started this morning and people started parking there again. I diligently followed the alternate side parking rules and I was on the. Even numbered even numbered side on the even numbered day. It's still got a warning ticket. It's dysfunctional you read the website about alternate parking, and it's like, from here to the end. It's like which end. It's really. It's dysfunctional communications, maybe you can put your new communications expert. Does that come out of my two minutes. Just so you know you are just at about two minutes now but go ahead a little bit and.  Autocracies fail, they practice, they don't hire the smartest or best people. People might be threatening they hire the dimmest and the most mediocre you get a government of third graders autocratic leaders in practice are serving their own regime and longevity even if it means neglecting their people. Thank you. Anyone else with us in person wish to make a comment. And go to with us digitally. Peter Kelman go ahead. Thank you. I spoke with Brenda Segal yesterday she asked me to please bring to the attention of the city council and others, particularly since we have to city counselors who are going to be in a legislature. The announcement by the Department of Children and Families, which was picked up by WCAX and also an article by the month there is rather misleading the this is not an expansion. This is going back to pre COVID rules that and in fact making some of them even more difficult for people to qualify to be in motel rooms. And by actually penalizing them. For example, there are almost no hotel rooms motel rooms available in Washington County. But let's say there's one in Addison County, but the person who needs the room really can't get away doesn't want to leave Washington County they have their doctors are here their children are here or whatever. If they don't take the Addison County offering. They can't qualify for any for a very long period of time like I think it's the year Brenda has the details, but it's a horrible decision and it's been missed. Because of this, because of the VCF press release, it's been misreported in in in the media digger got it a little clearer WCAX, but I know this is a state issue, but it has tremendous impact on our area, because we simply in our area, we do not have the rooms in the motels. And so, I want you guys to be aware of it. And I hope you will look into it. I brought it up to the homelessness task force which I'm now on today. Okay. But it's something that's got to be attended to thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. Peter we appreciate that. Anyone else with us virtually wish to make a comment. Okay. All right, so we're going to move on to the consent agenda is there a motion regarding the consent agenda. Move to approve. Second. Is there any further discussion about the agenda. Okay, all in favor please say aye. And opposed. Okay, so that passes unanimously so we don't need to do a roll call. And so we're going to move on to appointments to the planning commission. And so we have an applicant Brian Mills. Check, check, check. One, two, yeah, okay. I don't know if it's been five minutes over here. We're ready to go. Okay, cool. All right, so we're going to bring it back together then thank you for that. All right, Brian Mills, you're here with us. If you would mind coming up to introduce yourself and telling us about your interest in serving on the planning commission. Good evening. I'm Brian Mills I relatively new relatively new resident of Montpelier. My family and I love living here. I'm a consultant. I, my work centers around land use permitting and zoning, helping projects get approved. So it seemed like a good fit and I look forward to digging in and helping with the city plan. Super. Thank you. Any questions for, for Brian. Thanks. Okay, thank you. All right. Excuse me. Is there a motion. Yes, check. I move that we appoint Brian Mills to the planning commission. Hey, there's motion and a second. Any further discussion. Okay. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. And opposed. Right. So that is unanimous motion carries. So we do not need to do a roll call. Thank you. No curing balance. Thank you for your willingness to step up and serve. We appreciate it. Okay. All right. So legislative agenda. So, which is a little bit funny because Connor and I are going to be moving that direction. So it's almost like we're going to say we're going to be asking of ourselves. We've got 40% of our delegation here already. The conversations with myself. Well, and you're on the advocacy committee, right? So do you, it's you and Lauren and Jack, right? So I may.  So when we set this up, I mean, I can weigh in actually to start. Sure. Go for it. So, you know, as you know, we've had an active legislative agenda. We have our advocacy group here. I asked them to join us tonight just so they could hear the conversation and get a sense of what was important to us.  And added a couple of things that have come up in conversation this year and drafted that to put out for your conversation but obviously the council is free to add, subtract, multiply and divide as you see fit. So with that I'll let the, the committee members weigh in. Yeah, I mean, probably not a surprise it's similar enough to what we had last year there are a few additions a few subtractions but like big issues where we're still dealing with the idea that, you know, state employees are not coming back to Montpelier, to the level we may have anticipated or hoped. I think that leaves a lot of tumbleweeds rolling downtown affecting our economic development affecting our park and affecting everything. We'll see that's listed as the highest priority there. One thing I think we got to look at is, if they're not coming back, we have a lot of empty lots in town, right. Lots that could be used for housing for a number of different projects here riverfront access. If you look at what like what sustainable Montpelier did with the maps of the red you know that about the river there. It's pretty stark so you know, if stating plays don't come back, we got to use those lots so definite priority as we recover from COVID. You know the recommendations of the homelessness task force, I think we've done our best at the city level to try to have some social services with the liaison position vouchers, trying to help out the best we can with sheltering. It is limited. And, you know, as Peter come and just said this is a, you know, it's a regional problem as well. So we really need to shake some trees at the state level to see if we can get some funding to do right by folks in our community here. So hopefully we can do that. I don't know if we'll have on on all these but you know, he fast certainly Lawrence on top of that still be in an issue that we're following very closely. And yeah, and still trying to tap into some of these, some of the, the federal money that we're getting and I think we have a great team with leaning track and that keep in mind we didn't bring leaning on board and to like, I think a few weeks into the legislative session last time. I think that they did a fantastic job as far as communicating with us regularly and just keeping the thumb on the pulse of the building. So I don't know if that other committee members want to weigh in. No, I think that's a good overview. You know, the people can see a lot more detail in here. I mean, it, I'm wondering if it might be helpful just to hear since our lobbyists came just like any reflections on the role that you play just as we get to a tough budget season and like are we can fund for next year just, I don't know, like explain a little bit how that worked for us, having you all advocating for us in the building. I don't know if that feels okay and. Oh yeah, that's great. Yeah, that would be wonderful. Either one, whatever you're comfortable with. I think it does not. Not kind of feedback you came for. So I'm Maggie lens, I'm the Vice President of strategic communications that Lee and I'm public affairs and work for the government relations team. And I'm Nick Sherman president of government relations at Lee and I public affairs. Yeah, so I want to be clear I didn't come in here prepared to you know talk strategy. But I do want to talk about last session versus the session I think Connor pointed out was key we did come in, you know the second year of the biennium it was a little late. So it was more from my perspective identifying opportunities that we could find easily and then trying to work through those so I think we were successful working with Senator Cummings on the TIS stress TIF district language. We also had you know some last minute fixes to work on getting money for dispatch here in central robot more to come and more to come. Exactly. Yeah, so I think we're, I'm really happy that we've engaged with you earlier this time around I think it gives us time to actually go through these opportunities and create our own as opposed to just trying to at the last minute find ones that are easier to access. So yeah, I mean we're going to be having you know a closer meeting with I'm sure the lobbying team and with bill to talk about these priorities and actually create strategy.  Connor Casey Kate McCann, I think it's just one pillar is in a great position, and Lauren's going to be in the building. But in terms of legislators I think you're going to be really well positioned to meet a bunch of your goals this session. Yeah. Anything you want to say. Yeah, I think, and then in terms of budget state budget and looking toward the 2023 session I think there are going to be some dynamics, sort of globally that are similar to the last couple years with a large amount of federal money being on the table in the one time sense. But also, you know that the forecasts now are looking for in terms of the base budget, a pretty level year in the fiscal year to come but beyond that. There are some shortfalls projected and the dynamic, even in even last year when things were a little rosier has been that leadership in the House and the Senate have been eager to find ways to maximize the impact of that federal money that has come in, and I think we think that will continue so as you think about opportunities as we discuss opportunities from my pillar to leverage that, you know that one time, but those one time buckets are are really important. I think we are going to see as has been the trend base spending. And I think there's going to be a lot of pressure and being more more concerned about what that will mean for the out years when revenues may not be looking so good so that's kind of the dynamic at this point, as we see it. Yeah, and I think you know you're talking about homelessness there's multiple issues that are not just one pillar issues they are the regional issues and so that means that exactly their statewide issues and that's going to mean that we've also helped by finding collaborators and other stakeholders and other towns and cities who need similar things and work with them when possible. Toward that end I think to your point Nick and Maggie about the one time money. One of our biggest concerns or opportunities I guess is you know there's a huge amount of money infrastructure money. Inflation reduction money all that those kind of things, but because Vermont so small it's all going to the state. And so it's hot, you know, and I would assume it's teaming up with other communities and the League of Cities and Townsend but making those funds go into programs from municipal governments I mean still upon us to then apply for them and compete for them but if they don't even get to the table to go to local governments, which I think a lot of them were intended to. They added the password these funds come in and stay kind of gobbles muck for their own uses and so transportation money all goes into root 89 and never makes it to, to, you know municipalities and even, you know, even the dispatch money that we fought so hard for they just reallocated some of that to state dispatch centers, even though this was for local dispatch money so you know I think it's making sure that these things stay where they're supposed to be going. So we call out for not just your benefit, but everyone's benefit some of the things that were new without the old ones don't think matter but just so we specifically said you know use the infrastructure bill money to provide funds to local government. Obviously we call that out. We added the strength and laws against human trafficking. We had a pretty robust conversation in here for several meetings about that issue. So we're on record is saying that I mean it says provide funding for phase two regional public safety dispatching equipment but that was before we found out that phase one had been delayed so I think that's going to be a fight. I think the other one, we mentioned tiff, we specifically added the words project based tiff and we can talk about that I think the league is going to push for that as well, but I think that's something you could actually benefit us even more than what we fought for last year. Otherwise I think I don't think I don't miss anything new. Well, I don't know what new but I do think people should know that we have one of our very highest priorities is state funding for housing, you know, housing for years has been one of the highest priorities in the council and we certainly know that it's a serious problem in Montpelier and we have some opportunities so get getting money from the state government to address that is going to be helpful the things about public safety, very important.  I think I think this looks good. Just note that we're apropos of the comments we heard earlier we are wanting to take another run at public restroom funding. We did not get a warm reception at least from the administration level last year but But the legislature I think they they were already more open to it it was just again a timing issue so try to work on that too. Yeah, actually before you go to learn was there anything else I want to make sure that we didn't interrupt your train of thoughts. I mean I think I've said everything that I wanted to say. Okay, I just wanted to make sure. Thank you. Yes. Okay, go ahead learn. I mean this is just still on the line of the federal money getting to communities and I think there's going to be, for example, like the municipal energy resilience initiative where there was an issue around our eligibility. I think they found building easiest whatever that's building grounds and services administration money but kind of underscoring the importance of some of those programs that are going to fund important initiatives in communities like Montpelier that they, if they have money around because of eligibility issues with the federal strings that they're still, you know, emphasizing the importance of programs like that and looking, you know, and if we can be helpful it's like the kinds of important work that can be done with that funding. So I think there could be a number of programs like that that as they learn more about federal eligibility to be some ongoing lobbying to make sure they can continue to try to fund those programs. Okay, you know, transportation is a big point to hit to especially as we look at the use for the former Alex Club property. You know, there, it is some distance from town. And right now I think GMT is struggling recruiting drivers for the point where our own microtransits is, you know, the delay times are longer than we would hope for at this point. But we don't want that to be a chilling effect for people who don't have public transportation to get up without property to use it for recreational opportunities or anything else there so even up the funding on that would be huge. I think, I guess one one more thing I would add just generally regarding the funding and it sort of relates to what everyone said here is, I think from an advocacy standpoint, the ability for the city to show that you can get the money to work quickly is going to be very compelling. I think as we get three years into these influxes of various levels of federal funding coming in. And particularly when thinking about eligibility challenges and concern because often it's just as you know the unknown that kind of prevents them from wanting to do something. I think that there's going to be a lot of incentive and sort of. Yeah, I think the legislature and the administration are going to want to be looking for ways that this money can get to work quickly because frankly I think that's been a bit of a challenge so far so as we sort of think about the advocacy thinking about that as I would like to weigh in on that and I mean I think you're right. And I think that's an opportunity for some dialogue with local governments and with people involved in these things because maybe the state should take a look at what it takes to be able to do these projects quickly. You know I think there's this emphasis to do it and then when you can't get approvals turned around for engineering designs and those kinds of things and the permits that you need to go forward, even at a local level, you know we were almost a year waiting for a design approval on our East State Street we had to delay that whole project this year because we just waiting on a state approval. And I think it's staffing and I think it's there. But, so, I think there needs to be some sense that number one, there's a lot of investment in design and Pratt that people may not be willing to make unless they're certain they're going to get the funding. You know, you're going to lay out a couple hundred thousand dollars to hopefully get this grant. So, I just urged that there be some understanding that not everyone's going to be getting money and say okay I'm going to dig up the ground and put in water lines or, you know, internet or whatever build a homeless housing tomorrow now that I've got it, because we all then have to do what it takes to complete those projects including public processes and all so I think. Yes, that's true that they're going to want to and to the extent that we can collectively articulate the challenges with being ready to move fast. Absolutely. Because, right it's easy to say well we can't give them the money. They are ready to do it. Well, what does it take to be ready to do it. I want to check with folks online carry and Jennifer anything you want to weigh in on this not that's okay. Okay and Peter Kiliman I see your hand is up go ahead Peter. Thank you. I want to make an observation, something like what Bill is just talking about. It's not just money is sure it's about money, but it's also about how the money is allocated. And one of the problems that we have is we have a republican governor and republican very fiscally tightly controlled. And so the legislature needs to write these bills in ways that the that the that the administration can't hold on to that money and do with it what it wants to do and where it wants to do it. There's a huge imbalance of where the money is spent. There's a huge amount about that. I mean, just in human services alone. It's very difficult for our agencies to get the money when the money is is sent more often to Chittenden where they've got a shovel ready projects, a city like Burlington has the capacity to develop those shovel ready projects so they get them. So it's it does tie into bills. So the work I think if you guys lobbyists can help the legislature write some of their bills in ways that really don't permit the administration to sit on the money and and so forth. The second thing, which is related to that is that it is a question is a little bit what happens to the heat standard, who is going to make the decisions about implementation. Is it going to be an estate agency, or is it going to be a, you know, I mean, the legislature wanted the PUC to make make the decision. You know, that's what why Scott vetoed it, because he wants to make the decision. Alright, so, or he said, make the legislature tell us who should make the decision don't throw to the PUC. So it's not just about money. It's really about how the bills are written and giving the legislature more power to get the money to distributed much more robust, much more fairly and equitably than it has been. I'd be curious to get some reaction to that from the from the Leonine people. Thank you. I think just generally make up the makeup being what it is now 104 super majority in the house. You know, 109 if you count the progressives. So I think going forward it's going to be interesting to see how the administration reacts to that if they're still vetoing everything. So if we're going to see a little bit more, we're going to see the legislature, maybe pushing things through that they wouldn't be able to normally do anything to say generally though to the funding piece. No, I mean I think you had the nail on the head I think that's the sort of shift in dynamic we're all interested to see, given what happened in the election, and how that plays out and, and, you know, and how the legislation is crafted and the money is created I would expect that that sort of shift in the balance of power will will probably lead the Democrats who controls things to be more ambitious maybe with their with where they're putting the money. Super. I'm also very interested to see the answer to that. This is great I that all of these things are ideas at the two points that I feel good about I could get behind and I'm looking forward to working more on them. So, any, any further comments about any of this. Checking online. Okay. So I think we need motion as anybody up for motion. Yes, go ahead. Move to approve the 2023 legislative agenda. Okay there's a motion and a second any further discussion jack. So to clarify you're making motion to tell yourself what to do. Thanks in front of him. Say remember you will be able to miss. Me in the book copy every day. There you go. That's good. Okay, any further discussion. Okay, I'll in favor please say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay and opposed. This is unanimous passes. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having us. Yeah, research to work with you all again. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I think we are ready to get back to the office. Okay, so we are up to the energy update that we have Chris Lombra. Welcome. Hello. I think I know most of you to one degree or another from different contexts. Thank you for having me today. As you, as you're all aware, I have been hired to be the sustainability and facilities coordinator for the city. I kind of pointed the ADA coordinator all these, all these pieces kind of work pretty nicely together so I'm excited it's been a very steep learning curve and really a lot going on the last couple months really. But I'm digging my teeth in and getting going here so. Let's start here. Start with EVs. We have identified what we think is the most likely candidate for the cities cities first EV in our fleet. And that would be the engineering car that the public works department uses. The vehicle historically uses about 450 gallons of gas a year, which puts it on on pretty close power with the light duty pickup trucks that public works uses for for daily operations. So it's a good fit in that way. And so that that vehicle is slated to be replaced in FY 24. And the anticipation is that it goes out to bid as as an EV. Once the budget's approved in March. And hopefully to take delivery beginning of the fiscal year. And to support this vehicle to support electrification right we need chargers everybody's aware of that. And my my initial understanding was that we we really wanted to get a DC fast charger at the public works facility for to support operations. I think we're a little bit out ahead of ourselves have kind of gotten some expert opinions that support this. And it's very expensive. Some of you I think are aware but in order to have DC fast charging at public works. There's about $50,000 worth of primary power infrastructure work that has to be done in preparation to that so that it itself is about $50,000 installed. There's about $50,000 in additional work that needs to be done before that. And I think right now the thinking is that we're going to try and try and queue up the infrastructure work so that we will be able to be more nimble and when the time comes to get this charger in place. To support the engineers car. The best, the best option. Sounds like it's going to be level two chargers at City Hall, much less expensive, easier to install faster that type of thing. To, to be perfectly candid. I've been working very hard on the level level three charger at the public works garage and really all of this information is emergent to me. And just literally days. So I have not really had time to do a lot of research into the level to charge installation here. However, in, and I forget to mention this at me last night but in my discussions with Green Mountain power about the needs of the level three chargers. Their transportation EV EV EV transportation specialist Zach Casey, let me know that they are very interested in they Green Mountain power in installing level three chargers in downtown Montpelier. And I said, please, please, please let's let's have one at City Hall, you know, so they're going to look at look at infrastructure this would be a public charger. And I think this would be a great location for it and, and supports our mission sense sends a really great message. And, you know, kind of bonus it brings people to town for an hour to go over to three penny and have burger, whatever. So, kind of, I have not heard back from him but he sounded excited and very willing to, to investigate that. So that's that's kind of EVs and chargers. District heat. We are definitely interested in increasing usership of district heat. There are, as you all know there are cost cost challenges obstacles that type of thing. There is there is a possibility to leverage some some money from bills much more aware of the money as I than I am and, but there is there is some carrots, there are some carrots, and we do have one very very promising group of owners that have between five and seven buildings depending how far we, we extend our main lines that are, they're quite interested in talking about this they have kind of initially asked for a little bit of support from us, helping with the connections and, of course the line extensions and that type of thing to kind of soften the initial costs and we're looking into that but it's so far initial initial discussions are promising for increasing usage of district heat. So, the kind of sustainable facilities piece. And so, so my office has moved from city hall to the public works garage. And, frankly, before having an office down there, I had been to that facility maybe once or twice, right. And I'm much more familiar with it. And I kind of would just like to share information about the campus with you to help you understand better what we're thinking down there. When I say campus it's it's really, it's the streets and water department is not the treatment plant that I'm including in the campus and at that at that facility there's there's two large buildings. And I think kind of interchangeably they get referred to as a public works garage. People who use them daily call one building the garage which houses a handful of offices five four or five six offices there. And it's the repair shop for all the equipment. And it's also staging area and storage for water, water sewer parts and pieces and that type of thing workshop for those guys as well. That building is, as I said, primarily offices and repair space and break room for rank and file workers. And the other building down there is known as the equipment bar, and that is where all our trucks and snow plows and snow blowers live when they are not out working. All of all of that campus is currently heated with fuel oil. There's a there's a hot water boiler that heats the garage office building. And that uses about 2,500 gallons of fuel a year. There's a backup generator there that consumes somewhere around 500 gallons of diesel fuel a year. And it's exercises and periodic testing and that type of thing. And the big user down at that facility is the equipment bar. So that uses 4,000 gallons of fuel a year. And it's a huge open metal building with overhead doors on both ends that are opened repeatedly throughout the day. And as I was familiarizing myself with the campus, I went into this building. Holy cow, these doors. How do we ever eat this thing? And it turns out as I really kind of got walk through walk through procedures down there. The real the real heating issue with that building is lies lies in its mission and it is tasked with thawing out literally 50 tons of frozen steel every night in the wintertime. Right all our trucks come in there and they're zero degrees and it's a huge thermal mass that transient through that building. Current heating system in that building is an absolute dinosaur of a wall mounted hot air furnace that blows blows hot air way way up high into this cabinets building. And it has it has multiple failures it's really old it's it's literally there are pieces of it, held together with electrical tape right now, obsolete parts that it needs for repair that aren't available. And it's well beyond its service life. As that building stands, it does not lend itself well to to heating with hot water. The heat that will be generated from the from the wastewater treatment upgrades will be coming in the form of hot water. So after really kind of working with the stakeholders and wrapping my heads around my head around this. I really recommend the best solution for that that building and the concrete slab on the floor is failing it's reinforcing steel coming through it from salt exposure. It's got a failed trench drain in it where all the all the melted snow goes that needs needs repairs as well. So at this point my recommendation is that take the slab out of there, put in a new insulated slab with with heating tubing in it for radiant heat and it's this thing with the addition of a heat heater and a few pumps is 100% ready to accept waste heat, a huge amount of waste heat from the treatment plant as soon as that's available. Right now, we are. And when I say right now, as you all know we're working through budget and everybody is really really busy but we are we're trying to get legal review of the bond wording, and would. My preference my recommendation right now is that if legal says that it's okay. I would divert the portion at least of the quarter million dollar bond, which was originally written to put a pellet boiler down there toward this slab slab removal and replacement in the public works garage. So as I've already kind of detailed the cures a bunch of a bunch of failures and maintenance problems with that building, and it's for the mission of that building of thawing out trucks, having the heat down here is it's just it's ideal it's. I've gotten really, really rousing support from from experts and stakeholders all around this project nobody. Nobody thinks it's anything but exactly what we should do. We, we being Kurt Modica and myself had a meeting with efficiency Vermont last Thursday at the barn to discuss this project. And efficiency Vermont loves the project. The real question with this is, is how much heat or are we going to get from from the treatment plan upgrades. And I kind of cornered Kurt today and made him cry uncle. He said that probably six months from now will have a really a pretty good idea how much he will have to work with. And efficiency Vermont has has said that they'll be able to help with the engineering costs to, to make that determination. So phase one of the engineering for that whole project roll out will kind of yield this number. Okay. So that's, I'm really excited about this I think I think this is going to be, it's going to be a good fit and it's going to serve the city well and I hope that everything aligns to really really make this happen. So, onto the garage office building there. Both in both in our net zero plan and our 2011 2013 capital needs assessment. The windows in that building are called out there. They are just terrible they're, they're also failing there's glass that's not quite falling out but it's, you know the glazing glazing missing cracks and all the wood framing the you know that I'm sure they need to be air sealed around the windows will going in an air sealing with a bunch of spray foam and windows that need to be replaced anyhow is kind of working against yourself right. But so windows window replacement there is is a project that we're working on. And funding I really have it wrap my head quite around that it may be that there's enough enough money left in the bond if it's, if the wording can be interpreted broadly enough to include energy efficiency upgrades. Windows aren't terribly expensive it's on the order $25,000 installed for the right, I think 26 windows total down there something like that. There's also a fair amount of air sealing that's just kind of going to be tedious work that it honestly it may just be Chris with a can of spray foam. Going around that may be the most efficient way to get this done. But it's, it's not something that I've had time to investigate in detail I know I kind of know where it needs to happen but I haven't lifted ceiling tiles and kind of inspected stuff put my own eyes on it but certainly something we can do. Also that building would love cold climate heat pumps for for the office spaces so it's as I've described is kind of a dual function building there's shop areas or storage areas there there's some large areas that building that don't need to be heated to to ambient temperature right so we can hopefully set back some thermostats put cold climate heat pumps in the offices the offices are all small it would be fairly small units and hopefully get a decent reduction on our fossil fuel usage just just by doing that right. And I know we don't really get 100% net zero credit for this. But the the cold climate heat pumps would be much more efficient than the half dozen window unit air conditioners that we have there that are just rattling away and plywood panels where there used to be glass type thing. But the installer ensured me that that the cold climate heat pumps and cooling motor, literally 10 times as efficient as these these stupid little window unit so kind of a double benefit there. And also that the public works barrage building does have hydronic heat. It's baseboards baseboard heat in the offices and ceiling mounted hot water unit heaters and in the bigger spaces. All of that and depending how much heat we get from from the treatment plant. It's a matter of extending insulated underground pipes over and putting in a heat exchanger in the boiler room there and picking up that heat load as well. All of it, hopefully it's it's really. Nobody has a good guess how much heat we're going to get from there but if if the stars align and we get a bunch of heat and it really could quite easily heat that heat that entire campus. And that's that's kind of what we're working towards. So there's kind of facility facilities upgrades or sustainability facilities upgrades just facilities repair maintenance that type of stuff I've been working on that as well and have, like I said spent some time with the the capital needs assessment which was first written in 2011 and updated in 2013. And there's a lot of big projects on there that haven't been touched and the everything that was wrong then is worse now right so we're we're we've kind of worked together and highlighted the the biggest issues on there the biggest kind of needs and are internally prioritizing these and really we want to get these on the table and say you know listen this this is what we're up against and how can we how can we pay for this stuff right it's so put a fair amount of work into that and Kelly's been very helpful and we hope to make good progress on that. Also with my facilities had on you see the light the lights not flickering. We took care of that. So, I've actually had kind of clear priorities and the LED bulbs as well so we got an upgrade in the process. The custodian and facilities guy has been sick for more than a week now easy said fairly. He's having troubles with the respiratory thing and infection, that type of thing so I've kind of been filling in for him. And that's, I guess that that's part of this job right it's other duties as a sign bill right. So, shoveling steps this morning and kind of making sure the bathrooms aren't absolutely disgusting and calling in backup when needed that type of thing. It's a lot it is a lot is this job is, but we're working at it. I've also been up to the country club road property a few times and and made sure that the heat got turned on up there the heat got turned off and the transfer between the private owner in the city and got the heat on got that building kind of stabilized so we're not going to have any catastrophes up there with cold weather coming. And lastly kind of starting to begin to review just city hall mostly operations and maintenance procedures here and trying to just make this place a little nicer and make it work better. And then as the, as the ADA coordinator, my, my biggest priority immediately is going to be addressing the elevator here and getting the, we've got nagging control issues that were identified and transition plan also in the also. There's a fair amount of stuff in here that's overlapping between CNA and net zero or CNA and ADA. So we're going to. I'm sure we're going to have to go back out to bed with that there's. There's a currently misplaced file that has the historical information on that that I haven't had time to really search for but there's. We take that and get to work on that as well. And that kind of has us up to the minute and welcome any questions if anybody. Well, thank you. Oh my gosh, that was a lot. There's so appreciate that you are already so deep into this that's great. And I have a couple of questions, but the other folks have questions. Okay. I'm just going to go through it in the order that you talked about it so with EVs. Awesome. Thank you for doing all that research about the infrastructure work that needs to happen. Do you have a sense of, I think it makes sense right to do the infrastructure work now ahead of the fast charger for the garage. Do you have a sense of what the timeframe on that might be if not that's okay. I don't. Okay, I don't. But even just like identifying like this is what we need to do first like, okay, that's that's helpful. I'm thinking about like level two chargers here because they're because we have the one right here but that's obviously it's for the public. Are you thinking of like if we had one for municipal like for this engineering vehicle. I would like for it to be publicly accessible as long as we're able to kind of restrict access to it when we need it, you know, and maybe it's as simple as a sign saying, you know, this, this vehicle is reserved for basically that I believe the public works vehicle is going to charge overnight here. No overnight parking in this spot this vehicle is reserved for. Okay, so that I was just trying to think like how would how could you, you know, match that but I guess charging overnight would do it that that makes sense. Okay. Thank you for all that clarity around the two buildings on the garage campus, basically. It's confusing right yeah well and like I wanted the tours that I did along a long time ago now we went to the, the equipment barn and so I was, you know, as you were describing it I was like yeah right it is a big open base. Certainly to kind of piggyback on this if, if any or all of you ever wanted to schedule a tour to go down there and look at the places I'd love to walk you through it be, I think it'd be informative for everyone. So, the one concern I have about that I mean first of all I got love the idea of rating floor heating for that space I think. Now as you were describing it right like so you have a mountain blower basically filling up the upper half with hot air you know like that doesn't make sense. But, of course like these trucks are coming in with salt and grease and you know you know what not and so that's that's really hard on the, any material that's on the ground. Do we know if there are any other places, any other municipalities that have a radiant floor, storing space. I haven't asked that question. That would be interesting. I mean, because of course like if you're going to do radiant floor heating it's kind of like, I mean my, I'm a layperson basically right so I don't really know these I'm just asking questions so I, you know, I'm not an expert. But my understanding anyway is that sort of like once you do radiant floor heating it's really hard to change that right like it's because it's if it's sort of like embedded. Then, if it needed to be resurfaced or you know if it's if there's corrosion happening right because of the salt because of all the, you know, fun chemicals that end up on it right. I guess I would just want to make sure that we do it in a way that hopefully can be like the surface can be can be redone without damaging or needing to dig up the radiant floor heating. Does that make sense. Absolutely I can definitely speak to your concerns. So the slab that's in there is almost 40 years old. Did you say four or 40 40 40 yeah. And just really looking at the slab and how it's failing it. They just didn't get the rebar deep enough in there the reinforcing steel is in places within a half inch of the surface. So quality control when this thing is is put in place to make sure that we get proper coverage of the rebar is really going to really going to protect it so that the, the reinforcing steel is so close to the surface small cracks let water get in there water salted water get in there. So steel starts rusting expanding flaking and then it pops the concrete exposes more rebar it's kind of a cycle. So quality control when we build the slab number number one we could easily expect a 40 year life out of it now, which this this slab put in without the benefit of stringent quality control has lasted 40 years. And so that's, I think that's going to be our friend on the way in there are also just myriad sealers we need to find the right sealer to protect the surface of this concrete and, you know, set up a schedule and reapply this stuff and take, take, you know, take proactive steps to protect this thing which that hasn't happened in the life of the existing slab either. And so just to talk, talk to about the melting water and salt. I said there is a trench drain in there the trench drain still functions but it clogs easily it doesn't it doesn't work quite as well as it doesn't it doesn't work well, it needs a lot of help. Great so rusted that type of thing but I wanted to be real clear that that trench drain is connected to an oil water separator number one.  And then the water that comes from the separated oil is does go into sanitary sewer and gets treated as sewage it's not. So we're, we are already handling that properly and would continue to do so. Great. Thank you. I think so. The other question I have is with the office building down there so are you thinking about doing both cold climate heat pumps and hoping to get heat from the water resource recovery facility. Yes. But I guess we'd still have the cooling problem down there right we'd still be we'd still be married to window units if we didn't do cold climate heat pumps and. And again I know I know that's not a lot of not a lot of fossil fuel usage that that's saved by that but you know operational. If you look at trying to try and get a number it's going to be kind of tricky to pull that out and there's going to be a little bit of estimation in the process but you know how much money is this going to save us just in cooling cooling load and what's the payback. If, if our initial estimates from from the treatment plant, say, you know what you're going to have, you're going to have more heat than you know what to do with, then maybe we pivot and we take take another look at this and say okay this. Maybe this isn't, maybe this isn't the best use of our resources right. Well I almost wonder like if you do the cold climate heat pumps then why connect to the water resource recovery. So there's still. There's still going to be a load on that boiler right it does. It does heat all the workshop area well it eats some of the workshop areas in there to say 60 degrees instead of 65 or 68 or whatever. And then storage rooms are probably heated to a lower lower temperature than that. Thank you. Thank you. The idea was to put with people are working and the rest of the building could be to be with. What a resource recovery facility. Right. Yes. Cool. Thank you. This is very helpful. Other questions, Jack and then Lauren. Thanks for this. I couldn't put my finger on it, but it seems to me that we had a report or analysis from the energy advisory committee about where the potential excess of use and energy use and where the potential savings are. Am I right in thinking that the public works campus was the highest priority for for doing that. Yes. Yep. Good. Obviously, there are some savings opportunities here in this building and also some human comfort opportunities that you're also looking at with regard to the to the charger. If we're talking about putting $100,000 into a charger that's going to charge one vehicle. Obviously, that's not a particularly efficient use of money. So do we have a, we have like a bigger list of what vehicles we would be moving to convert to electric in future years. Yes, yes. So, all of and focus mostly on public works fleet right now these are these are a real fuel users. The police department currently has two hybrid vehicles. They're not they're not plugins they are hybrid cruisers. And the idea and I've got to understand this a little more. There's so much so much technical information to digest, but basically police cars are built and tested to their very own standards. They have to do X, Y and Z and crash testing and all of all of these really stringent requirements where And this is very new information to me I've never, never been in a position to to even consider it but it's not just put a blue light on the roof of a Tesla and you have a police car it's it's there's just right now there are suitable suitable police vehicles other than these these hybrids. Unfortunately, because those are the those are the ones that really log the miles right. But there is there is a replacement schedule back here original question there's a replacement schedule for all public works vehicles. Typically on a six to 10 year cycle depending on the piece of equipment and the plan is as as each as each vehicle ages out and is ready for trade and we put it out to bid as an EV and hopefully find suitable candidates so I will qualify this and say that you know perfectly suitable candidates for a lot of these vehicles do not exist right there's there's heavy trucks that type of thing. So the, the, the level three charger the DC fast charger interchangeable terms. I think the idea is that that's available that that's going to charge a fairly large battery pack in an hour. Hopefully when the future comes that we have electric dump trucks and snow plows and that type of thing. With just a little bit of schedule coordination those things can come in plug in for an hour driver takes a break or takes a different piece of equipment. This thing charges it goes back out the next truck 37 comes in plugs in charges so one fast charger in the course of you know winter operations could be almost continually charging vehicle after vehicle after vehicle with you know, and that's some operational stuff that that we haven't even begun to discuss but it seems fairly elementary and simple to. And I think our just to amplify that to, you know, to that point is and Chris and I have talked about this fair amount which is, we're so far away from really being able to convert the fleet there. And when we look at that schedule and you know, the thinking was well then, yes we need to invest 100,000 but is it smart to build put that charger in now, and have it sit unused for four or five years when we could get one out here that would only be charging the one, the one vehicle for now but if we weren't able to get others but also the public vehicles were were furthering greater goals and not, you know, kind of more of a just in time when watch the fleet, because eventually they're, they're going to be there but they're not there yet and, you know, obviously then we've got fire trucks and, you know, it may just be that we'll have a fleet of police hybrids for a while before they go fully electric and that's, that's an improvement. It's not perfect but it's an improvement. I don't know if you, I don't know how much time you spend watching city council meetings before you got this job but people will tell you that pretty much every time we're asked to approve the purchase of another vehicle. I or someone else on the council is going to say, so did you look for an electric vehicle for that. So, just to follow up on vehicles just in just a little bit more detail. I did have a conversation with Kurt today I didn't get a chance to talk to Zach who's the more, more direct person for this but I, I began to question our existing model of vehicle procurement. It seems like we, we send out a specification we say okay we need a truck that can do X, Y and Z it needs to tow a 6000 pound trailer and it needs to be able to haul X number of pounds of payload and it needs four wheel drive plowing a bit whatever, whatever the truck needs we send out a specification to that, and it goes out to a number of dealers, and we ask for bits. And there's, there's, there are state fleet discounts that get passed down to the cities that we were able to take advantage of. And it sounds like the last time the vehicle went out to bed which I guess was probably last spring. They, they, the specification said, there's no difference given or we, we want this to be an EV, and nobody came, none of the usual suspects came back to bed on the EV. Right. I kind of question how, how motivated these, these dealers we're working with are to, to meet the EV specification. And I asked Kurt, you know, is it time to really take a look at, I know this is how we've done it for 50 years or however long. But this is, this is a new landscape and let's take a closer look at how we, how we source these vehicles and maybe we can, we can set something up that's going to be more successful than they, they letting them say or giving them an opportunity to say, no, we don't have that. Here's a gas truck. This is the best we can do, right. And it's just, this is just a brand new idea that's kind of rattle around between my ears for a few hours. And, but I want to kind of flesh this out and talk to, talk to stakeholders and see, see what kind of sense we can make of that process as well. I also think the, the heated floor idea seems like a great idea, whether it's going to be epoxy coated or something on the, on top of it that seems like a good way to go. I assume that would be a lot better for the guys working on the trucks too. Yeah, that for the most part that's not where the repair work happens. Sometimes in situations they stuff does get worked on there but for the most part, the equipment barn is just a storage facility. And the repair shop is on the back of the offices and garage building. It's been a while since I had a tour. We should do it. There's, there's a lot to take in there. Yeah, there's a lot. Thanks. I will say one other thing. I think it's, it's great that that part of your job is also the ADA coordinator. We were on the ADA committee for several years together and it's great to see us making progress. Yeah, you know, I, I give Tom McCartle a lot of credit for because he was very committed to that for many years. Yeah, for sure. Not to, not to knock our existing DPW team. I think, I think we've got great people. I'm so happy with, with the appointment of Curtin's Act and the positions they're in but Tom McCartle was he was a special greed. Thanks. All right, Lauren. Thank you. Yeah, just had a few questions. And first, I'm so excited to have you so excited to have this role and it's so great to see so much progress so quickly and I know it's a lot to learn and your enthusiasm and creativity and willingness to do whatever it takes. It's really appreciated. So really excited to continue working with you. One question for the, so if we need to spend like $50,000 to do the line extension to have the phase three power for like, could level two chargers serve the purpose or do we really need that constant? Like is this something where overnight vehicles could be or like four hour stretches or whatever like is there, is there feasibility because there's so much cheaper that it could meet the need or is that not a possibility given the demand on the vehicles at crunch time. So we were at the point and this is years down the road. If we were at the point where we had it all electric, all electric street fleet, and we were in the middle of a real, a real snowstorm when it's all hands on deck, all machinery working snow removal all that stuff. 10 level two chargers wouldn't be enough. It would definitely hamper our operations. Not to interrupt but I just want to weigh in because at least for now and this is something we might look at in the future but that the gasoline site there the is also serves all our other vehicles. So, you know, having a police cruiser that's doing its shift to get down there and have to sit for four hours. I mean, I suppose they could put in what it's, you know, but if in the middle of the night, someone needs a chart, you know, I think it's, you know, whereas maybe they would use the one here. So I think we need to think strategically there may be multiple locations for these are not just one. That was my next question is multiple. I mean, I love the idea of the downtown level three that the city could use as we build up the electric fleet and that the public could use I mean I think having a location that seems great definitely move forward with that. I mean, I guess. I mean, obviously you want it to be as convenient as possible but I don't know if there's any other sites where we already have phase three power or something where we don't have to pay for the line upgrade. I'm sure that will be I think about that but you know maybe there's a location where we're not spending the 50,000 but yeah, I mean if not I do think you know obviously getting ourselves ready for. I mean we're just in the midst right now, like the state is signing on to California the zero Michigan zero mission vehicles and zero mission trucks for heavy fleets by 2035 manufacturers are going to only be able to sell this transition is going to be coming quicker than we think as the manufacturers are totally retooling to electric so I think being ready makes total sense and you know just that's that's what we should be doing and it's where everything's headed so I think you know whatever whatever we can do in that but I guess you know if there's a way to save the 50. Well it also may be you know I mean I think if you look the other way though, you know, if once the three phase power is there it's there and you know it could be in the future we're going to need more than one charger there. Yeah. So, you know, then we have the capacity to have a bank of them as needed you know to expand as the fleet experience. Yeah, it's kind of a one time investment to be able to have a sustainable program so I don't know that it's a bad idea. One idea and so one one other thing I'd add that I have learned about EV chargers specific to the public works facility campus down there. It's, it's not even unlikely that during some of these snow events will lose power. Unfortunately, our backup generator that that powers the public works campus right now is nowhere near nowhere near robust enough to to feed a level level three charger. So, under those circumstances obviously it's it's emergency emergency planning at that point it's it's not a common event but it's not an unlikely event. The generator will run level two chargers so I think we definitely need a blend of them down there, and we may find ourselves in a situation where you know a level two chargers. It's what we have until, until the grid comes back, you know, we're, I mean, as much as people like to mock the idea of charging electric cars with with power generators, it's, it's this isn't an optional thing if this is a necessity and it's what we do and worst case it makes makes our EVs temporarily the equivalent of the diesels that they replaced but only only very temporarily. I'm just one other more on the bond and the heating I mean I really hope that we're we get the advice that we can move forward with the proposal as you've laid out and it does make me think we're talking a little bit at the Energy Advisory Committee last night like these types of projects and knowing that as like the research and technology if they can be. Maybe we need to think about writing them with like the goal in mind and some more flexibility and you know, naming a specific technology I mean I like the direction and like that we're trying to implement our net zero plan and stuff but like if we're finding actually a better option that still meets the goal at the location that we want to do it, maybe just a flag for bonding wording to make sure that if we get it, you know, maybe it will be great and fine and that's what I'm hoping, but maybe we could keep that in mind. Well, I wonder if. Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. I'm just speculating here, if the advice is not that you know it said this and this is what we have to keep to I wonder if we put something on the ballot that says to your public you can you can permission to you can vote to re purpose or reword the person. Okay, that's possible so actually could be timely because we could. We could add that, you know. Yeah, this month. Yeah. So, depending on the timing of when we get this advice it might be good to start thinking about that now anyway. Well, anything else. I'd like to just piggyback on what what Lauren just said in and say, you know, future planning. Let's, you know, I'm happy certainly with a little bit of advanced notice to maybe not make myself an expert and in any given way, but do some do some research and be able to give thoughtful advice as to, you know, we want to do, we want to achieve this goal, and we're going to write a bond for it and what do you think and, you know, kind of pull together the stakeholders and really, really be deliberate about the wording of that as you know, I'm all new to this but it's how important is the wording of the bond it's it's it's life or death right or not life or death. We don't know. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, it's, it's important. It matters and if we can. If I can speculate a little bit here I feel like, I mean maybe this just because I'm transitioning to this new role at some point in thinking about other municipalities in the area right like, and Montpelier is unique and that we have a lot more than lots of smaller towns right. I mean, this probably happens already but I'm just anticipating that you know there may be a lot of municipalities that don't have the expertise that you are putting together right now, and I'm just, I hope, I'm sure that it's you know at some point other municipalities are going to be like, you know we want to pick your brain to see like how do we know if we're redoing our own garage what do we do like we heard that you put in a radiant floor or like, just things like that how did that go what was that like. I'd love to help anything like that. It's a separate thing but I do have one other question, which is that at one point we had before us a policy to that would have required that the city transition, all of its buildings off of oil by 2030, whether or not the systems like the heating systems that they're on were due for replacement. And I mean the other part of it was that like as the heating systems come up for replacement that we've replaced them with something non fossil fuel based and we sort of punted on that to collect information, you know, data on how much that was going to cost us or just to do some more research. Do you have any thoughts on such a policy. I mean, I think that is the that is the net 30 net 30 goal net 020 30 goal is to be off fossil fuels. I, you know, we're, we're pretty lucky fire station police here we're on district heat where we're no fossil fuels to eat this building. The, I mean a big wildcard is our rec center on Berry Street what what in the world is going to happen to that building. I, I mean, I have my personal opinions about that. And that that being that that building is obsolete it does not serve the city well and the idea of taking out an oil boiler in there and spending few hundred thousand dollars to convert it to a pellet boiler to still have an inaccessible dinosaur of a building does not make sense to me to be honest with you I, I envision a future that that building gets deemed obsolete and gets sold off what whatever happens to that building. I think. So a building like that. I push back if you some Christmas we really want to put a pellet boiler and in the, you know, in the rec center. I'd really want to be thoughtful about that and be sure of the direction we're going. But that is sorry to interrupt but that is one of the projects we talked about when you first came on I know you've had a lot was evaluating the heat systems in each building and what it would take to convert and the cost it was part to that proposed policy. I mean, I think I do think the rec center is an outlier but you know already our senior center has they've got a pellet. Well, they're already, you know, presumably anything we build that country club road we build, you know, more modern if we can do this huge conversion at the public work charge we're really down to, you know, the stuff at the rec field and we don't have that many more the water treatment plan. It's about it, but you know we don't have that much more to go so I think the I think we're without we can't put a number on it but I think it's we're on the way. So it's a reasonable policy. And, and similar to the to the very street rec center that the country called conflict country club road property is it's it's a wildcard right now we need to need to see what white mark has to say about it. I mean, it's, we'll see what they say about that building and how well, how well that can or can't serve the city and again make try and make an intelligent decision about what we'll do up there. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate your thinking around like that the rec building and so I guess I wonder if well and also I appreciate your thinking that that really this policy that we're talking about might effectively be an extension of the net zero policy that we already have adopted. Right, like it's almost like a clarification. It's almost implied, right. But that's, that's what I understand my mission as a sustainability coordinator to be is to do all we can to get off fossil fuels. Yeah, you know it's, it's tempting to, like, well then we should just pass it but that means also like, do we need to because it's already already maybe we already have passed it. Anyway, it's something I might have some just offline conversations about like whether or not we need to maybe we don't but whatever let's one more thing I would share that I, I certainly was not aware of this and it's good news, good news. Still trying to familiarize myself with city facilities I spent the 10 years I worked as building inspector, primarily in City Hall. I remember the other day and spent some time with Patrick Healy and got to know the Green Mountain Cemetery campus and facility and buildings over there. Completely unknown to me. Patrick has, he has switched over as much as possible to these really heavy duty battery powered trimmers and that type of thing I wasn't sure if council was was aware of that but I thought that was super cool so they're like huge backpack battery that plugs into these trimmers and they're not like my stupid battery trimmer home that cuts for half an hour and you have to go get another battery these things he said run for four hours on the charge, and he's super happy with them they're they're powerful they don't they don't diminish his operations in any any way shape or form they're quiet you don't you know breathing the two cycle exhaust he really loves them and I was really pleased to see that you know Patrick had taken that on himself to to research these things and find find these tools that really work well for him and inadvertently or intentionally I guess helped us helped us meet this goal. I did ask him the 64 thousand dollar question bill, how much fuel do these replace and he said I have no idea. It's, it's a lot and I know. I think I understand that. I mean, so gallon of gas creates 20 pounds of carbon carbon dioxide right that's that's how it is it doesn't matter if it's in a car with a catalytic converter that's that's exhaling clean exhaust, or it's it's a gallon of gas that gets mixed with oil and burn through a two stroke which is incredibly dirty and so many other things but it's like the small small engines are, you know, air pollution there there's a bunch of other stuff that comes with those that's to me it's, it's, it's not going to be a huge fuel savings but it's, there's there's other benefits as well right. Totally. And this is something that I feel like I've been having this conversation with PBW folks for some time. So, anyway, do you think this is something that has the potential that we can be switching to for for city operations. Right. Yes. Yeah, and Okay. And I would, I guess I would ask for a little bit clarity on that specific issue it's the biggest bang for the buck is the biggest users right what which, which vehicle which building uses the most number of gallons, but these a little bit hung up on how dirty these small engines are you know even, even four cycle lawn mowers are like, an hour of that is equivalent to a couple hundred miles of car driving, right. Is how big a priority is it to us to to address air pollution in the form of the dirty exhaust from these small engines right is it. Or do we just want to really really kind of focus on the big usage and try and reduce the bulk gallon usage you know. What's the typical lifespan of that equipment. I mean like Mike knee jerk would be whenever we're replacing at this point we should be replacing I mean I think all of these pieces are part of the 2030 goal. And yeah we're focusing attention and resources on like the biggest reducers but we shouldn't be replacing equipment. I don't know some of the stuff though if it lasts for a long time like would we have that 2030 similar to the buildings where we're trying to have replaced the whole fleet of fossil fuel equipment by then as well, which seems like. Yeah, that's not clear in the net zero plan for sure. And then I would say the life cycle life. Yeah, the lifespan of these pieces of equipment varies wildly on. That's something we can look at is we're going to be quick for sure, for sure place. And again that the, the heavier pieces the big wide mowers that we use for the bulk grass cutting. Those, those don't exist as as effective, electrically powered equipment yet but I. I think that's got to be in a two or three year time horizon for those are there. There exists a schedule of replacement for the this kind of equipment, not the same as vehicles do I think it's. I think it exists, but I think you know certainly we can look at that and figure out, you know what's again it comes into what's available and what doesn't meet the need that we're doing the tremors work great. Not as much you know so I think it's, you know, I would feels big wide open spaces you need to be able to kind of go and. I would venture the guests and that the replacement schedule for these exists in the heads of the people who use them daily. Yeah, sure. I'm not sure if I had a conversation with with Pat Healy he would say yeah this this zero turn over here is going to be worn out in five years and I'll need it. Yeah, you know our knees, our knees guys were cutting grass for the rec center every day. Same thing they're they're going to have a decent idea it may not be down to the. I mean, you asked about like how to prioritize that kind of replacement I mean. In as much as it costs your time, I mean I like I want to recognize that it's not really my job to tell you this right. But like if it's. You know things cost more than just money right like it seems to me that we need to be prioritizing big, big, you know emitters. But if it's not if it's not a question of time if it's. If it's not a question of money that I would love to see us try to do all of the above. Because it's all like Lawrence said you know it's, it's all a part of meeting the goal. And so, especially, and to, you know, one of the reasons to potentially do the building specific policy clarification is, even though it's already included by our policy is that we want to as the city I think we want to set a good example for the rest of the community. And I think that includes, you know, with the tremors, as well as like to say, you know, we, we have this policy but here's how specifically it's going to play out you know we're going to, we're going to get our buildings off of oil by. And just making that clear to the community as well. I mean, you make a good point right it's it's at some point it's it's a matter of optics you know we're. So I was at the pool and these guys are running around with these stinky gas tremors the whole time and my kids had to breathe the exotic whatever whatever the scenario is it's what are we doing how what what examples are we setting what kind of leadership we're showing. Right. Yeah. Yeah, those are like little but symbolic things. Cool, thank you. As usual, I could talk about this for a long time. And I apologize, any of us want to check in. I counselor Brown and counselor Morton anything you would like to weigh in on on this okay just wanted to check. Any other thoughts and counsel. Thank you so much. This has been really great. Really appreciate all your work. Thank you. Okay. So, we're going to go to item eight and a half, which is discussing anticipated vacancies. No. On that do you want to go first you want me to go first. It's probably more an agenda item for you all that the mayor and myself here but I just want to be cognizant we have a pretty busy budget season coming up here. And you know, I at one point had thought like, could I do the legislature and city council, you know at the same time but you know as I'm looking at the meetings I've already got going and the day job obviously. Hunter s Thompson only said anything worth doing is worth doing right, and I don't think I could do it right, you know, so want to be respectful to you all on that one. I also want to give some notice that you know if you do need to fill the vacancy, give people enough time to apply and do it for whatever period there. I would just kick off saying my intention would be for December 21st to be my last meeting, and then transition out there. I could be flexible just depending on the timing if you needed me a bit longer or something. But the session does start January 1, which would be our next council meeting, and I just envision I'd be missing some time if that were the case. So, you know I spoke to build today, I spoke to give you just one on one here. That'd be my hope. I will say it's definitely been one of the greatest privileges ever, serving with all of you there. And it's very important to me not to leave you in the lurch and, you know, do right by you guys to but that would be my plan at the moment. Yeah, Lauren. I don't accept your resignation. No, but could you remind us bill the process for. I thought maybe the mayor was going to turn to go through the whole thing because they're too different. They're actually different for both seats. Yes, yeah. So, similarly to Connor I am just anticipating that being a part of the Senate is going to be a lot of time and I think one of the differences between. And in this situation being a rep versus a senator is that I as a senator I would represent just a different boundary of folks and, and you know I think it would be a question you know it if I was to stay on right that like well who was I saying when I said that was I representing the people of just Montpelier was I representing the folks of the Washington Senate district. So anyway I think it is it is appropriate for me to step down and so I would also anticipate stepping down December 21. The last meeting before the session starts so. Yeah, and I would I would also say like I'm actually having a really hard time thinking about not being here. Like, this has been a part of my life for the last 10 years. I'm going to save all of that. I have a lot, a lot to say about it. But I just want you to know, I, I, I'm having a hard time like separating my thinking from what is happening here. Having said that, Bill, what is the process. So it sounds like we need to get the budget done by December 21. So two meetings. We can handle the public hearings without you but you make all the decisions on the 14th and 21st managers review has to be done by the 21st. No, so the process that. So there are two different processes. I looked them both up in the charter I am paraphrasing by memory but we can certainly go to it. So start with the mayor. When there's a vacancy in the mayor seat with more than 120 days left in their term. Now, Mayor Watson's term goes all the way till the next March. So there is clearly going to be more than 120 days left in her term. It says the city council shall forthwith shall call forth with a special election to fill the remainder of the mayor's term. So whenever that election is when that person gets elected mayor they are mayor until the end of Mayor's Watson's term. So, if you were to call a special election in January or February, that person would be mayor all the way until the following March. Obviously, I think it makes the practically speaking and for the city clerk's sake it would be ideal not to have an additional election between now and town meeting if at all possible so, you know, the question is, you know, if she's her for last meeting is the end of December is, you know, the first to second to whatever first Tuesday March forthwith, and probably it is. That would mean we would have sort of no mayor for January February, essentially with the council seat, it's different. It's if there's, if there's a vacancy with more than 90 days left and again Connor also has a full year afterwards so those day limits are coming. This is the council shall appoint a person, you know, a fill in until the next cow meeting election. So even if you were to appoint someone. They would only be on you may remember when Ashley he'll step down a couple years ago we appointed Dan Richardson, and he was only on for a couple months they got reelected to the one year term but his first fill in was only for six weeks or And so I think. So, again, the question would be. So I think so they're two different questions and you know, obviously, no matter what council member Casey's one year term is going to be on the March ballot. So two questions one do you want to time it so that the mayor's arm is on the March ballot or do you want to have a special election, and to do you want to fill the seat by appointment between now and March once council member Casey steps down or not. And again there's no time limit just as the council shall fill by appointment. Doesn't say within so many days or whatever and I certainly, you know, if we had many months to go by all means you'd want to fill it the question is do you want to fill it just. And it would be a new person coming in right in sort of the budget process. So it's really your decision how you want to do that but they are different. They're different animals and need to be handled sort of separate. Jack. Thanks. I've been, I have a couple of thoughts about this. One is that the office of vacancy in the office for one thing for neither of these. Neither of the actions that the city council takes come into play until there's a vacancy. So, as long as the two of you are still on the council and serving as mayor, there's no vacancy yet. With regard to the vacancy in the office of mayor. It does say the city council shall forthwith direct the city clerk to call a special meeting. And the way I read that it means that what has to happen forthwith is for us to tell the clerk to call the election and forth so forth with relates to when we tell the clerk to do something not when the special election has to be held. And I think it makes a ton of sense to have the special election for mayor be on town meeting day, both because it costs a lot of time and money to hold the special election to, we're likely to get a better turnout for people to coming to vote for that, which is I think is an important thing. With regard to the council vacancy, one of the questions is what process we would go through. And the last few times we've done it we've required anyone who wanted to be appointed to collect the petitions with signatures the same as if they were asking to be put on the ballot and I would think that that's the way we should go so that people show some logic and support before they they get considered. That's that is correct that's from the practice and the other. So, so you're correct there's no more vacancy until the position steps down however we have in the past, any anticipation of a vacancy started the process in advance and in fact the, the mayor of Jarvis and she said I'm resigning as of the end of this six weeks from now or something we had a whole process and the mayor was appointed and didn't actually take office till the next meeting and Sarah was still at the last meeting voting so you know, I think we could, in case of an appointment, I think you can start the process just can't. The person can't take the seat obviously until the prior seat is vacant, vacated. And maybe, you know, I don't know I'd look to the city clerk for a detailed ruling whether they actually, I think that I get I think what happened is they've pointed you at the close of the meet and you took office at the close of that meeting. And I recall so she resigned as a bit of German of that meeting and then you appointed as a. Yeah. And, and I think we've done something similar in the past so you could, you know, if you if you wanted to appoint someone on December 21 or one of the January meetings you know we could start that process now if that's what you chose or you could choose like I said not to point it. That's, that's, it's both of these are. But in, you know, I think it is fair to the public to know what we're going to do. And how we can get what time we allow for people to get involved. There's going to be an appointment with the process looks like that lines are. Lauren. Yeah, I mean, I think my inclination at this point would be. I mean, I think town meeting and we can forthwith to direct john to do that for the mayor's seat. I mean I would be inclined to follow the recent practice of someone, you know, asking for petition signatures, but lining it up to appoint someone. And getting down to people is not giving people as, you know, robust of representation, as I think they deserve, even if it is that short window so I think it's worth getting, you know, another voice in here especially it, you know, in budget season and lots of important decisions just having, you know, more community members participating in that seems good. So that would be my thought at this point. But would you want to Well, I'm going to put this out there like what is the timing that you would anticipate as ideal for an appointment. You have to have an answer for that right now but that's that's a question. Carrie, go ahead. Yeah, I'm, I'm just going to agree with Lauren and an echo all of that that I don't think we want to separate election but I do think we want to elect a new mayor on the city, city meeting ballot and to try to get some replacement for Connor and quickly. I'm not sure what your question just now was about timing. What do you mean by that exactly. Well, so just thinking about the. Thank you, by the way, so one possibility is that the timing for an appointment could happen as soon as the 21st, and have it like sort of similar to what I was appointed, take effect on the adjournment of that meeting, or do we save it for the next meeting when you know, actually a vacancy.  I guess those are really like the three options, or I guess a fourth option be to just be down a person until town meeting day and it sounds like we're not. People are not, but I don't think we can do that. This is your policy call but is, you know, you'd actually be down to. Right, exactly. Carrie go ahead. Yeah, thanks. So what I was, what I was advocating for was as soon as possible. And so if that means that we could appoint somebody to begin on the 22nd. You know, I don't know if we can, if we can appoint them to some point in the future but if at that 21st meeting we could say okay you're appointed starting tomorrow, so that we don't because we can't have two people on at once. Yeah, the vacancy doesn't exist yet. So I don't look you're empowered to take any action. I think, even if it's a minute later, even if you know who you're going to point, that's different. You know, the moment after the resignation but I don't think you can, you can do any act to appoint them in advance of that second after the resignation happens. Does that mean we can't make an appointment on the 21st? As long as you did it, as long as it was done in the correct order, I mean as long as the resignation was received, and then the appointment was made, I think it could be in the course of the same meeting, because the vacancy exists as soon as the resignation happens. It just that it doesn't exist before. Okay, I'm just remembering that is different. Well, it didn't quite, I mean, it was clear that Sarah was resigning as of adjournment of that meeting and was appointed as of post adjournment for that meeting, but. I'd stick with the letter, though. Yeah, I mean, I think you could just do, you could wait. Yeah. I think we can figure that out. We could have, right, you know, Connor could do his official resignation or council reports and then we could have an agenda item after that to make the appointment. And that's, that's, that's what you want to do. And so I think that part could be figured out. I think the world shoe and that probably makes the most sense because we only have two meetings in December the 14th and the 21st. And there's Thanksgiving in between. So if we were to recruit, you know, to give people time to get their signatures to think about it to get the word out. And if you appointed someone on the 21st, assuming we do the timing right. That gives them the holidays to at least look over the budget material. And, you know, because we, January is a pretty heavy budget unless we finish in December. And then we can have less meetings in January for this new person. So. Okay. Fair enough. Lauren, go ahead. I have a vague recollection that we might have done a special meeting like done it a little just knowing how busy the budget meetings are, like, maybe we do it a different day where so it doesn't get bogged down in that which do you me feel like that's how we did it for Dan's like we had done like a short special meeting to look at applications and make the decision because it was so doesn't leave us a ton of runway there. Because we could do like the 22nd. You know what I mean like we were going to do it on a different night. It's, it might be that we get have enough interest that it could, it could take us a while. You know what I mean like there could be one. Right. Like, I mean best case scenario we have a lot of applicants and they're good and we have a lot to talk about right one appointment that took multiple meetings. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. So anyway, that's so thank you that's maybe we'll know. So but I also feel like, so let's just play that out a little bit. So, let me first. That means that people would have to get their signatures in by the 16th. Right, right, which means that. Gosh, that is that is exactly a month away. And that's with a with some holidays in the middle that is a quick that seems a little bit quick, but it's like, it's on the like quick side of reasonable. I think but yeah, see the other option for that is the January 4, you have a budget workshop schedule for January 4, there's nothing else on the agenda. So in theory, you could have the applications do by the 21st, because I don't know if it was going to apply over the holiday Christmas holiday anyway, and then take them up right at the beginning of the, at that point, both are off. So we don't have it into that problem taking to the first order of business on the fourth will be to appoint the new member members. And then go on to a budget workshop after that, right, and then assuming we haven't finished. And at that point you would have five, five members, which, you know, fair enough, you need for so. That's true to do it on the 21st. Well, depending on kind of would have resigned. Right. Yep. That's true. Right. Right. Exactly. I want to go to Peter Kiliman you've got you had your hand up for a while. Thank you, Peter. Go ahead. Yeah. So I was the person who asked you guys to. I'll announce soon. Thank you for that. I thought about this quite a bit and I'm just going to, I'd like to make an argument against the approach you're suggesting. And here's why. Two reasons. One is a new person coming on for less than two months, especially if you do this January idea that you just talked about is going to have a learning curve right in the middle of budget season. I think is unreasonable. I just don't think that's going to work, particularly if you don't appoint the person until the beginning of the first budget workshop. And on the other hand, whoever does get appointed is going to have an unfair leg up by appointment on being elected in in March and also when when do the March, when do people are going to run for office. In March have to register. I can't remember, but I think it's an early January. So I don't buy the idea that you're going to be down. You're going to be down to that's the mayor and Connor right. There's no more down than that right. So you're going to have an odd number odd numbers are good for voting. You guys have been together for a long time. You know, Peter that they actually require for votes to pass something. Yeah. Okay. Even if there's five members. No, no, I know. Yeah, I understand. What's that. So if there were six members for six people still for votes would be required. I know it does. Yes, I'm saying I don't think you're gaining anything by doing this and you're going to open yourself up for anger. You've been picked. Basically, the person was going to get elected because of their incumbency. And that remind me I remind you that happened before with Jack. There were some people in town who are really angry. Jack appointed.  Jack, that's not a person. I don't want to be argumentative, but no, but it's an important place of information. Jack got appointed in March, right after the order for a full year. April, but it was for a full year's term. It wasn't for just a month or two. I know I understand that. But I'm just saying, we can go short for a year. What? We wouldn't run short for a year. But we, I think the question is, do you run short for a month or two? No, no, no, I know, I'm, no, I understand that you absolutely needed to do it for Jack because that would have been a whole year. I'm just saying that the perception on the part of the electorate is that you guys would be handpicking by appointment, somebody who then two months later, like with Dan, two months later would run and win. I just want you guys to think about it. Is it really, you really gain that much by filling that seat now? I just don't see it. The number of votes you're going to need to pass something is exactly the same. You're talking about an experienced group of five people, sorry.   Thank you, Peter. John, you have a comment. Yeah, I don't usually get involved in discussions like this, but just as the arbiter of elections. I think it's important to remember that it's easy to slide into this talking about it as some sort of administrative issue. We are talking about the election of a representative body, which means the full representation of every citizen equally has to be the full stop final consideration and the rest is details. And that means leaving, you know, spots in some districts unfilled changes that level of representation for folks in that district. And I just, from my perspective, I think that should be an absolute nonstarter. So you would advocate that we do it immediately as soon as possible because that's that's why this body exists. That's how why the whole system exists. And to to to go against that just because of administrative convenience or a concern about perception of how it's done. Okay, you know I recognize all those things are important but at the end of the day what's really important is that everybody in town is equally represented in certainly the budget, which is probably the biggest thing you all do. Yeah. Okay. Okay, well I think we should. Okay, what I'm hearing is that we should probably have a motion to direct the city clerk to hold an election for the mayor. Well, oh right sorry. Just kidding not that one. In anticipation of a vacancy for honor. We probably need a motion about posting or asking for applications or posting that position have them do December 16 for consideration on December 21. You can always carry it forward if you don't know if you want to get more applications and you can do what you need to do but that that seems to be that is a month. I just want to go over the holiday and I don't yeah. Okay. You only other question. So I personally I fully support the notion that you've got to get signatures. I'll just point out that I think the last time we did this one council member Morton was because of the pandemic we did not require signatures. I could be wrong about that. No, I got signatures. Okay, good. I'll be quiet. You get signatures. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Is there so it would be useful if we made that motion today to give folks as much time as possible to prepare the word out. And it would be for district two. Not Jen. So, yeah. Is there a motion Jack. I will make that motion and just to be clear on what, what the motion is the motion is that we intend to appoint a replacement, a temporary replacement on. On December 21 that the petitions with the bearing the signatures equal to the number of signatures to put a council candidate on the ballot will be due by December 16. For the district to to vacancy and their anticipated vacancy and the clerk. I don't know if the clerk needs to do anything between now and then except to we do the we do the manager's office usually does the publicity around it and the clerk accepts the petitions and certifies the signatures. Just just like any other signatures. Yep. Okay. In the motion, it's signatures and there's an application. Also, yes, or is it just getting signatures and names in the past, right? We hadn't had him fill out the application form for like the general committee committees thing to get background. I think it's helpful. It's probably. It's fine. Okay. I don't recall if I had to do that. I don't know if it existed, but it's fine. Is there a second? Okay. Any further discussion about this? Okay. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. And opposed. Okay, so the motion passes unanimously so we do not need to do roll call. Thank you, everybody for having this discussion and helping us get some clarity around it. I think that will be good to get the word out. We'll try not to change our minds. Right. Okay. So you can resign newly elected positions and stay here. Another option. So. I didn't check with you ahead of time to see if we think that there's going to be any votes coming out of these executive sessions. But just in case maybe we should do council reports now. And I mean, it's it is 839 do we. I feel like we should do our council reports, then take a take a break and then go into executive session that sound reasonable. Okay. Donna is not here. Okay. Carrie, go ahead. I do not have anything for report tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Jennifer. I'll pass. Great. Thank you. I'm also passing tonight. Lauren. All right, well, I, I guess, so this is the first meeting that I have had since the November 8 election. And so I just want to thank everybody. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who, who supported me and I'm really looking forward to representing the Washington district in the Senate. It's going to be great. And yeah, and also it's going to be really hard to leave this group. But more on that later. I really feel like there was something I needed to report to you guys when I don't remember what it was. So I guess I passed. I just have a couple of things. One is somewhat substantive at it as we go forward. In the next meeting, we'll be presenting the budget at the next meeting we did have our budget Congress today with staff. Shockingly was done by noon. I was scheduled all day for today and I'll vote for tomorrow.  We're going to go home, I guess. It was kind of it. So we'll be putting the fine to tune on that, but we do, we will be suggesting and I want to be clear about this. So everyone has time to think about it. I think as you will wonder, I'll actually affect this budget, but I will be recommending that we consider putting on the ballot, a charter change to implement the local sales tax. It now, and you know, we would be getting the revenue from sales of cannabis, which is a new probably high sale and also a couple of years ago they changed so Amazon revenues are now available. So what was, I've got to fine tune these numbers. So we won't take it to the bank, but what was I think eight or $900,000 in potential revenues now close to one and a half million dollars a year for us. So I want to I want to vet that and make sure I'm not exaggerating, but it's real money. And it certainly seems like given budget and inflation pressures on our budget to be able to bring another revenue stream and is worth a policy discussion. Perhaps vote that you're going to be your choice but I want to give everyone clear. It's going to be part of the budget recommendation that we do that. So there's that then I think there's a couple of other ballot items just to be thinking about as we go forward. We talked at the last meeting about whether to continue with CV PSA. We'll be attending our meeting on the 14th to talk about their budget request. But again I just think that's something we want to consider do we want to put that on the ballot, don't have to decide now potential ballot item we're still checking this out about the storm water utility whether we went to enact storm water utility and whether that is a charter change or not. So that's possibility and then we just added tonight to potential bond reauthorization. So it's not out of the well, we'll talk about that later but it could actually two of us. Well, so that I won't try to be obtuse what this is more for later but getting food for thought we are preliminary numbers for the Confluence Park are now up to $2 million. You know, I think originally we thought this is going to $500,000 project grew to $1.1 or $1.2 million city at last year's vote put six, well we've approved a bond for $1.8 million, including $600,000 for the Confluence Park. Now it's not as specifically worded as the pellet stove was so it's, it's a little bigger. So it could be we just do the other items and never issue that bond and just, we have that extra bonding capacity, or potentially go to the voters and ask to reallocate that to say, put your club or you know some other place that we funding I don't think it would really be appropriate for paving that but considering that we may be. It's possible we won't be putting as much into the capital plan as we had hoped. Spoiler. It's possible that finding another place to do some capital so something to think about and then I and obviously the question just if we need a wording change from pellet stove to other net zero type activities. Those are some possible ballot items that you mind sticking up as we go into the next meetings and just to be also clear, we have a budget workshop scheduled for December for January four, but the 14th and 21st are supposed to be working budget. So you two don't get out of them. So the fourth is there if we still need another, another workshop and then of course the next there's two meetings that are the actual required public hearings, and then we have a potential workshop in between so all kidding aside, if we finish by the 21st, the new person will just have to go through the public hearings and not necessarily decision process.  And then just the last notice the speaking of budget, I, the mayor just sent out her budget survey to you all and we issued our informal survey that we've done the last couple years out to the public. See, I think we've already got a couple hundred responses back we haven't looked we don't know what they are, but we, they're back. And again, those are just to give us a sense of what people think they're not finding, obviously, but it's just some public feedback as to what's on people's minds. So that's all I have other than. So, yeah, I do have one other. Well, you're taking a break right before you go. I just, there's a correction on which statutory site we're going to exactly session. Oh, when we get to that I will. Okay, we'll talk about it then. Okay. So with that, we are going to take a 10 minute break so we'll be back here at 856 to. I anticipate going to executive session so we'll see you then. Right. Okay, so we're coming back from our break. Just as a matter of logistics, because the reasons to go into executive session are different I'm kind of wonder if we have to come out of executive session for the one to then go into the other. Yes, but I think you could just say it. I think you could say would take executive session to do this to do this. Okay. Okay. Okay. And did you want to change. Yeah, so for the property discussion, it should the proper site is one VSE 313 a two. And the proper site for. Because I don't have the other one in front of me the proper site for the personnel one is one VSA 313 a. So that was. No. Yeah, that's it's a public records. It's a public records exemption. I'm sure Mary just picked it up instead of the meeting. So. All right. Well, so we have a long executive session motion to be made. I would be neither of these require the other finding. Right. For simplicity, I'll make two separate motions. Okay. When I move that we go into executive session pursuant to one VSA section. 313 a two for the purpose of discussing a potential real estate purchase. Further discussion. All in favor please say aye. Aye. And opposed. Hey, do you want to do the other one right now? Yes, I moved that upon the conclusion of our previously ordered executive session, we enter executive session pursuant to one VSA section 313 a three to discuss personnel matter. The appointment or employment or evaluation of a public officer employee. Okay, further discussion. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. And opposed. Okay, so I did we determine whether or not we anticipate having a motion coming out of the motion coming out how it needs the executive session link. He just texted me looking for. Okay, so we will only be coming out of executive session to adjourn then. Okay. Okay, well, thank you everybody who joined us. Either in person or virtually. We need to, we need to stay in here in our law, but, but those of us will we have to log in to log out of this and log into the next right. Yeah. So come back here and then you're all good as long as we can still have the sound and everything from the folks on a different link. Right. Cool. Thank you. Yes.