Goldpony here today in the new 2020 Hyundai Elantra. Courtesy of Jack Gimbaldo Hyundai in York PA. And so today I'm in Hyundai's second longest running nameplate in the Hyundai lineup. That is the Elantra. First introduced to the US in 1992. And if you guys pick up a Consumer Reports magazine you will see that the Elantra is constantly ranked above average reliability every single year. So it is definitely a solid pick. The question is, can it stack up to cars like the Corolla and Civic? And so today I intend to find that out. So as always you guys, let's start with pricing. And so as you could probably expect there will be several different trim levels for the 2020 Elantra. First one being the SE starting at $18,950. SE L starts at $19,700. Value edition at $20,600. Then there is the Eco for $21,250. Limited which is the one we have today. That is going to start at $22,800. And lastly there is the Sport. That one is going to start at $23,800. And so as you could probably imagine with all of those trim levels there are a few different engine setups to be paired up with them as well. First one being a naturally aspirated 2-liter inline 4 cylinder. This one is going to belong to the SE, SE L value and limited therefore the one we have today. That one is going to put out 147 horsepower at 6,200 rpm. 132 pound-feet of torque available at 4,500 rpm. Power is sent to the front wheels for every single engine setup actually through a SmartStream IVT. What the world is an IVT you may be asking is kind of similar to a CVT. So just think of it like that basically. But altogether MPG numbers on this first engine setup is going to come in at 30 in this city 40 on the highway. And so then the second engine setup I'm going to go over is specific to the Eco trim level. This one is a 1.4-liter turbocharged inline 4 cylinder putting out 128 horsepower, 156 pound-feet of torque. Again sent to front wheels but this time through a 7-speed dual clutch giving you MPG numbers just slightly better. 33 city, 41 on the highway. And lastly the engine setup belonging to the more powerful Sport trim level. The one comparable to the Civic Si I guess you could say. This one is going to be a 1.6-liter turbocharged inline 4 cylinder putting out 201 horsepower at 6,000 rpm, 195 pound-feet of torque available at 1,500 rpm. Sent to the front wheels once again through a 7-speed dual clutch giving you a 0 to 60 time you guys. 6.3 seconds. That is rather impressive for that car. With MPG numbers 26 in the city, 33 on the highway. Still kind of impressive given the 0 to 60 time there. So that's pretty cool. But so then before we do any kind of accelerations which we are going to do in a second here. Didn't want to mention there are some drive modes. Drive mode button is located just to the left of the shifter there. That's going to give you things like normal, sport, and smart. And that is going to be available for all trim levels by the way. But so those drive modes essentially will adjust things like the shift points, the throttle response, and actually the steering sensitivity as well. So what do you say? Let's go ahead since we're sitting at a red light waiting for a green light here. Let's put it in sport driving mode. Let's go ahead and do a quick little acceleration. See how quickly we can get this new 2020 E-Launcher here up to speed. I like it. I actually kind of like that. It is a very nice engine sound to it, especially for just being the base basic engine setup. I really like that. It's not the fastest thing in the world. It's not going to be like the sport trim level. But as enough get up and go to get you merged onto the highway, and honestly again, I really like the feel of that. It's not too bad. And so to go along with that, braking is equally important. And actually between the trim levels, braking is going to differ slightly. For example, if you went with the SE trim level or the Eco trim level, you will find front disc rear drum brakes. So not as potent of a braking setup as all the other trim levels because if you went with any of the other trim levels, you will find four wheel disc brakes. And actually you're going to get larger front rotors if you were to go with that sport trim level as well. I shouldn't mention that. But overall braking feel today has been perfectly fine. No issues with bringing the Elantra to a stop. And again, I do have the four wheel disc brakes today, so that's definitely nice.  In the back, a coupled torsion beam rear axle. And so having said that, I will say the ride quality isn't bad. Definitely is, I guess, as expected for the Elantra. But again, a lot of the competitors do use an independent multilink rear suspension. With that setup, you will get a smoother ride as well as a little better handling. Actually, that independent multilink rear suspension will come standard on the sport trim level. So that is where you're going to get the best ride quality and handling capabilities because that rear suspension is going to be a little better than the torsion beam rear axle that we do have today. But still, again, not that bad of a ride quality. I haven't had any issues there. And when it comes to the steering feel, I actually kind of like it. But I do have it in that sport mode. And like I said, the sport mode will adjust the steering sensitivity. So it does have a nice weight to it there. When it comes to cabin noise, you guys may hear I do have the air on right now. So if you think you hear some wind noise, that is actually what that is. But really, cabin noise has been quite nice. And like I said, when you do hit the gas, the engine noise that comes into the cabin, that is a plus in my book. So definitely a fan of that as well. And touching on visibility, it is excellent in the Elantra. I can see perfectly fine out the back. Usually sedans, you're not going to have any issues. But visibility is definitely on point. Shouldn't have any issues with the Elantra being a good daily driver for you there. But now I think it is time. Let's check out the exterior of this new 2020 Hyundai Elantra. All right, so starting up front, you will find chrome horizontal bars on that front grille with the exception actually of the sport trim. Sport trim is going to give you a black mesh design up there. But to the sides there, projector headlights are going to come standard for all terms, but the limited and the sport trim level for the limited in sport, which is what you're looking at right now, you will find LED headlights. So it's going to help give you a little better illumination at night. And actually LED daytime running lights are going to come standard for the eco limited in sport trim levels. And if you wanted that automatic feature, meaning the headlights will turn on automatically for you when it starts to get dark out, simply go with any trim, but the SE trim level. That is the only trim that will not give you that automatic headlight feature. But anyhow, let's make our way to the side here to the side. You will find a chrome belt line molding. You guys can see it right underneath the windows there. That is going to come standard for the limited and sport trim levels only. There's going to be some added side skirts. If you were to go with the sport trim level, although we do not have that today, of course, but when it comes to the side mirrors, let's take a closer look here. They will come body colored power adjustable side mirrors for every single trim level. And then we'll come heated with the SEL trim level and up and actually with integrated turn signals. If you were to go with the limited or the sport trim levels and then taking a look down at the wheel setup, let's get down here. 15 inch steel wheels with covers will come with the SE trim level. 15 inch alloy wheels with the eco SEL and value. We're going to give you 16 inch alloy wheels. Limited is going to give you 17 inch alloy wheels. That is of course what you were looking at right now. And lastly, the sport is going to bump that wheel size up to 18 inches. So if you wanted to easily distinguish between the different trim levels, simply look at the wheels, I suppose, because they are all quite different. But now let's move our way to the back here. Rear spoiler is actually going to come standard with only the sport trim level. Every other trim level is going to essentially look like this. So it definitely looks kind of good. It kind of looks like it has the little lip built into it, but it looks good back there. LED taillights are going to come with the limited and the sport trim levels. Rear diffuser down below is going to come with the sport. And actually it looks like we do have a little bit of it here with the limited as well. So it definitely looks good down there. And of course there is a single exhaust outlet tucked neatly away down there for every single trim level. And you will actually get dual tips if you were to go with the sport. But again, that's not what you're looking at today. And so you guys know what we have to do next. And before we do it, don't want to mention that exhaust clip is actually going to differ slightly depending on the trim level of the sport. It's going to give you a much deeper tone to it. It definitely sounds intense. But anyways, we do not have the sport. I got to stop talking about it. As always here is that exhaust clip. And so but now since we all around back to open that rear trunk, there's a couple of different ways to do it. There is a button on the key font. So that is one way you will actually get a hands free trunk release if you go with the value trim level and up. And one additional way to open that rear trunk is simply press your thumb within the Hyundai logo. This is the coolest one. This is the coolest way to open the trunk. Sonata actually does this as well. But that is going to be how I am going to open up every single time because that is kind of like a secret agent kind of way to open that up. But anyways, once opened up cargo capacity is going to come in at 14.4 cubic feet. And there is a 6040 split if you need a little extra space there for all trim levels, meaning those rear seats do fold down for quite a bit of extra space if you needed it. Then make your way up to the rear leg room that is going to come in at 35.7 inches. So for reference, I'm in even six feet tall. This is how much space I have back there. Those of your passengers will also find a rear center armrest with cup holders if you went with the limited or the sport trim levels. Those are the only two trim levels that are going to give you that rear armrest. But either way, if you were curious if there was any rear ventilation, there is not for the rear passengers. They're simply going to have to rely on the front ventilation making its way into the rear. But still, this is a smaller vehicle. So there shouldn't be any issues there. But making our way to the front seats, cloth surfaces are going to come with the SESEL value and eco trim levels. If you went with the limited or sport, you will find these nice leather surfaces that we do have here today. And by the way, if you wanted heated seats, go with the value trim level and up. And there will be a power driver seat with power lumbar adjustments if you went with the limited that we have today. But taking a look up front then at the steering wheel, it is tilt and telescoping for all trim levels. It will come leather wrapped for the value trim level and up. And it is all manually adjustable as expected for this type of vehicle. But now let's make our way to the startup. Let me first start by showing you guys the key here. You do have your Hyundai logo on the one side. And when you flip it over lock unlock and again, the button to pop the rear hatch. But it is actually a push button start with keyless entry. If you go with the value trim level and up. So therefore we do have that today. So all I am going to do is simply put my foot on the brake and press that engine start button, which is located just by the driver's right knee. Once started up tachometers on your left speedometers on your right, there is a small digital display front and center. One of the cool things about these gauges is there is kind of a checkered pattern within both the tachometer and speedometer. I remember seeing that in the launcher sport I previously reviewed as well. Definitely a more aggressive look to it. I do like that look and actually to control what is on the digital display as always, there are steering wheel mounted controls on the right side there giving you a ton of different things like how many miles you have left until we hit empty, which apparently is 419 miles. That is a ton of miles until we hit empty. That's definitely pretty impressive there. Outside temperature as well as a digital speedometer is probably what I would leave it on. Also check out your safety information up there when you need your next oil change, some radio information, Bluetooth. Definitely a ton of stuff you could check out up there, but touching on overall interior quality, dual zoom climate control comes standard for all trim levels. Power sunroof is going to come with the value sport and is going to be optional on the limited. We do have that option today, so that's definitely nice as well. Wireless charging pad is going to come standard on the limited. Homelink controls once again with the limited that's going to be up to three different garage doors found on the rear view mirror there. Dual USB charging ports for the eco trim leveling up. And overall I gotta say I am definitely a fan of this interior. Of course you got the leather seats. I like that, but everything ties together very well. Like there's an aluminum trim that ties together on the doors onto the door handle and then it kind of just keeps on going just above the glove box there. So it's like a continuous aluminum trim line that goes throughout the vehicle. Also like the two tone interior that is specific to the car I guess we have today, but that's always nice. Definitely a fan of that. But now let's get to one of the best parts of Hyundai. Hyundai does their tech and infotainment system so well. There's a five inch touchscreen display with the SE. That one's okay, but every single other trim level is going to give you a seven inch color touchscreen display. There is actually an eight inch color touchscreen display that's optional on the limited and the sport trim levels. That one's going to come with factory navigation. But honestly in this day and age you don't need factory navigation. Here's why. If you have a smartphone at least you don't need it because you will get Bluetooth and audio streaming for all trim levels.  Meaning if you have a smartphone simply hook it up to the Elantra that will give you free navigation through your smartphone, which you will never have to pay to get updated. It always has updated maps. It actually gives you speed traps as well. So you don't speed in those speed traps. And it tells you the speed limit of any given road as well. So a lot comes with those two apps, especially the Android Auto one. That's the one I use. I'm always a fan of that. But you can also actually through Android Auto or Apple CarPlay like in just like your Pandora songs up in that screen. I use that a lot too. You can check out your MPG numbers up there and also of course your radio settings. And by the way when it comes to the sound system you will find six speakers for all trim levels but the limited. The limited trim level that we have today will give you an eight speaker infinity premium sound system, which is by the way optional on the sport. But guys know what we have to do. Let's go ahead and turn on the radio here. See what we got playing and let's test out the clarity of this one. Got to admit the clarity is on point in this sound system. I don't know if it's the song but definitely the infinity sound system very nice clarity. Bass is nice as well though you probably didn't hear it there but before I played this clip the bass is definitely quite nice but the clarity is probably what impressed me the most on that infinity sound system there. But so anyways last thing on the tech display I wanted to mention is when you do put the Elantra in reverse you will find a rear view camera with dynamic grid lines for every single trim level letting you know who or what is behind you which is always is going to lead me into safety. And so when it comes to safety first thing I wanted to mention is the Hyundai Elantra has been named an IIHS top safety pick plus which is the highest rating by that organization so that is definitely a plus to start with. Front side and side curtain airbags will come standard as well as a driver's knee airbag up front. In the back you're going to have latch aka lower anchors and tethers for children for the rear car seats. Also standard a tire pressure monitoring system but also some of the more advanced safety features that will come standard on all trim levels is a forward collision avoidance assist system lane keep assist and a driver attention warning system. So if the car detects you're starting to get drowsy it is going to notify you perhaps urging you to pull over or get a coffee or an energy drink or whatever. SEL trim level and up is also going to add a blind spot warning system with rear cross traffic alert. Blind spot warning of course being the little cars in the side mirrors there so you don't go merging onto anybody on the highway so that is definitely always nice as well. But so anyways that is about it for this one you guys thank you so much for watching feel free to follow me on social media at the bottom of the screen there be sure to hit the subscribe button and the bell button if you enjoy car reviews that is what this channel is about and I will see you guys in the next video stay gold


So yeah, the title is slightly different because there's a funny story there because usually you send your conference proposal about foremost in advance and Sometimes you forget a little bit what you were going to talk about which is exactly what happened so I figured it out because more or less I know the plan and This is the stock is a bit special because it's more about Plans and how to try to see her head and just the normal details So this is why this is mostly the same title actually because the new running story of catch tools is more or less that we have the system that is in production and We have to keep evolving and not break things too much so that users Why both of them keep using upon BSD actually? so there and back again The idea is that sometimes you try to change stuff and sometimes it fails In that specific case about a year ago. I broke package ads intentionally like at some point in time You try to use package ad and Either you had all package tools and new packages and it didn't work Or you had the new package tools and all packages and it didn't work either like this is what you got around six zero when you Try to install an old package. It was telling you that actually The fact that you had was a completely unsigned package which was completely false because it was signed but with your tools So this doesn't happen very often there is a very good reason for that one and I'm going to go into details in that particular instance and then I'm going to talk about why this Had to happen and why I'm trying very hard for it's never to happen again so what actually happened in that case is That we changed completely the way signature worked in a compatible ways And so all tools couldn't cope with a new one Which is always expected like you had some functionality and then you discover that doesn't Work with all tools. Yeah, sure, but the old ones didn't When your tools didn't work with the old package, which is a bit new actually All stock signatures. So if you want to look at the details, you are going to find it in the history of openBSD since it's no longer the case Okay, the basic idea is that we want to be able to install packages on the fly. So we check some every file store the checksums inside Manifest file a packing list and the packing list itself is signed This has a Case I have a picture here Yeah, probably have a picture here on that one. So it's definitely yours Thank you So the benefits are that you get on the flight check You can stop extracting an archive before the hand without losing any security There are some drawbacks as well One of which is that you have to rewrite the package for signing We choose to be real slow because you had to unpack everything Sign the packing list and put everything back again. I talk about that more later probably if I don't forget and The men drawback here. I have to pass everything to chance it first. Welcome Hello You have to pass everything to chance it or some kind of chance it before you check anything and once you start looking at the unpacking code you realize that it's almost impossible that This code is safe that they have to be bugs in the Z library in any version of the Z library and Well You could be for and try to edit it and try to fix it But you can also be lazy and say, okay, who gives a fuck we're going to get to rid of that So new deal New style we are going to store the signature itself outside so that We get rid of that issue because then we are never going to pass any unchecked information to unpack and Of course, we still have to trust some people we have to trust our fellow developers to write packages that aren't full with Trojans and everything But this should happen usually and Okay, then we don't care I have a jzip code is completely broken because we're only we are passing trusted data to it Sign notes, which is important for the rest of the talk We are not actually extending anything Like if you look at the jzip format first actually a command field which we are using to put our signatures so that it still appears to be perfectly normal jzip Files from the outside if you don't have any package tools you can still download an open bsd package And it will look as a perfectly normal Jzip tar file even for there are some very interesting things going on inside it So it's a typical signature under the new skin like if you look in the command Field of any open bsd package on the on the mirrors these days. You're going to see something like that The interested command part is deduce fault But yeah, well doesn't matter it just the way that signify is producing signatures It's going to tell you that it's using that specific key Like we don't really have any Certificate chain trust other open bsd. We don't really care about that and it's complicated and it gets wrong all the time So basically any key that's installed in the right directory is going to be considered as a valid key That's it. So it's outside what I'm doing. I'm not very sure for that one and then we have List of keywords Just so because we know that things are going to change at some point. So we have to provide for the future Like here We're going to say that we are using this algorithm for now. There was some discussion with Like which algorithm is the best for us like we want to have something which is reasonably small 256 bytes it's sorry is enough, but Shaft 512 slash 256 is apparently the best way to do checksums Almost standard in a standard way these days on modern architectures and Then we have block sizes because we still want to be able to extract stuff from the fly so Looking at packages. We decided that 64 kilobytes was probably a right size for each book So this is a majority parter from what was going on before As we no longer Check some individual files. We just check some part of a compressed jzip stream and As soon as it's actually checked to be to be okay To have the right signature we can pass it to them back up As far as I know, it's perfectly safe unless someone manages to break one of our cryptographic So, why does it break the former version of signatures in package ad Was much more friendly from a coding point of view because everything was done inside the package ad proper so you could have decent checks and decent error messages like you unpack the packing list and you see what sign or not and you can even ask the user whether they want to Add an inside package or not now with a new one Package ad no longer knows anything Not mostly about signatures. It passes everything to an outside program signify which is going to check the archive and It's all or nothing like signify is going to give you an error message that says I haven't found any signature or I haven't found any valid signature and In that case, that's all that package ad has to to to say about it. That's the message Well, this is this was the first version of a message.  And you have this sign that says forbidden grass So this is a kind of an error message that doesn't mean anything in that case So breaking things was a conscious decision. Usually we try not to break things But in that case we decided even though there is no security hole In jzip for now that it was best to thoroughly deprecate the old Signature process and only support the new ones After all this is open BSD so Usually when we have a choice between more security and more Usability we decide to to earn the side of security as usual this kind of stuff actually happens all the time Yeah, that's the one. What did I do?  Sorry. We do change internal details of packages ports about every two months and this is the one case in about Ten years that users noticed anything that we had to actually break compatibility In that manner As you probably know if you're in this room when we Do releases in open BSD. They are usually supported up until To release afterwards so that means for a year you are going to be able to work with open BSD And then you have to upgrade all the time actually, this is not true for Packages in general if you're working with package tools usually you're going to be able to play with all packages that did back five or six years like we have cables that change and Most of the time I Tried to keep supporting them for a much longer period the idea is that if we can We shouldn't break backward compatibility as long as it's not too complex And this happened maybe 12 years ago back when I was starting on package tools more or less and at that point things were evolving really fast so It became a case of metaprogramming like you have to have some Infrastructure so that you are resilient to change to unwanted change. So at that point I added specific class for all keywords in the backing list right specifically very intuitively named all and I've seen no reason to get rid of that structure and usually I clean it up every five or six Like I look at any keyword in that list and if it's been There for over five years I usually completely get rid of that because everybody who has all packages that Did back that far usually as a time to upgrade and they seem repeated messages that this is an old compact keyword And blah blah blah you should update the narration So I'm going to talk a bit about the development process and the design guidelines in general As some of you probably know when you do some open business stuff We do it by remote most of the time But we meet once twice a year to do stuff in person like you have this one This was the last hi ketones that we had in Paris Well, it was so long ago yeah, time passes like probably 10 years ago and It looks like this we put a lot of developers in the same room and we hack together. We talk together We do lots of stuff together This is also from a hackathon but more private one with only a few select people's Invited to a secret place in the middle of France with mostly cheese and Stuff to drink and a bit of what over stuff Oh Sometimes it's cool sometimes Well, actually I have another way to look at hackathons specifically port hackathons where I meet my fellow developers Which looks more like this like I have my colleagues and friends and I Just observe them trying to make their way through pot street and trying to fix things trying to make things work It's all laundry somewhere in this room. Yeah Like that. Yeah, it's it's a prime example of the guy who Sometimes acts dumb on purpose so that I don't get to be To have too much of a hero complex and that I have to fix things So that they can understand what's going on and this is very important guys Think it as a joke. Yeah This is really Important to have something back about what you're doing so that you don't go in a crazy circle and that you don't write stuff That is impossible to understand for anybody There's also the challenge that for real Ports work is Hard to do like you are solving hard problems like updating stuff Can be difficult we're dealing with massive amounts of codes this day we have something like 40 gigabytes of packages and Everything has to keep working and there are exceptions over time Why? Some of them could be avoidable like when you've got a head barrette maintaining tech life for instance You know that something wrong is going to happen But apart from that Yeah, well Very good for keeping me in check and making sure that my design is sound and Possible to change by your people So let's talk about more personal stuff like my actual work environment For real, this is my preferred work environment so Yeah, this is Budapest obviously for those of you who have been there if you haven't If you go through Budapest you definitely have to go to the baths. That's completely amazing out of this world and everything and This place not Budapest proper but the bath itself is probably where I do my best work like When you've been coding for a while I think that sometimes you have to dive deep into the code and Then you have to step back Think about what you're going to do next Because these days writing more code in packages. It's very easy. I know the code mostly by heart but I'm lazy, I don't want to write new code and Also, I know that every time I had I had some new code I'm going to introduce some new bugs the only code with no bugs is no code at all so being away from the keyboard and Not writing code just thinking about stuff This is something that's really important for every aspect of the major project if you Lose yourself too much in the detail of the codes. You're not going to see the big pictures and you're going to miss opportunities for optimization and new stuff like those signatures we happen mostly by accident a new ones at some point I was looking at jazip and we were trying to fix something. I was trying to What was I trying to yeah, I was trying to see if I could use Some street specific streaming jazip algorithm which would compress better and which would work with our sync and I realized that there were about five different patches for different version of the Z library and none of them were applicable to us and Then I realized what a mess this was and I realized that jazip was basically broken and So that we had to put signatures outside and then everything happened. The code is trivial. The main idea is that Realize there is a program somewhere and then you will fix it Actually most of the core developers of OpenBSD follow that precept some of them better than others Like for instance our fearless leader We're spending a lot of time outdoors instead of advocate board and So is a top-notch developer because of that and You have to keep giving money to OpenBSD so that we can keep having hikes and I get tons and everything And so that we can think beyond code and Actually make some good designs If you want to hear more about that you have his talk on tomorrow I guess he's going to talk about pledge if you don't know about pledge you should go and see the stock because it's really awesome for lots of reason Back to me. I can't always be in the past. I guess that Robert would kill me at some point Of course So I have reproduced the same environment at home Yeah, it's a bit easy for various reasons and I was actually a very interesting detail here. It's a bit shy so Yeah, I wanted to be fuzzy on the picture and I can't wait it to be on a better picture So this is my inspiration. I keep this in the bathtub so that when I take a bath I have to think about OpenBSD and to fix more stuff Yeah, I'm saying all this in terms of the job, but that's for real When I say that some of the best ideas and some of the best things that we have in our package tools Have been done in the bath That's true. The last one which I'm going to talk About at the end came to me while I was taking a bath Let's talk about some specific topics in package ad Yeah, so this is all about change. This is a part which is talking about the Neverending story of package tools Sometimes we have to revisit some decisions Some of them were not mine at all like when I decided to read the package tools We already had the package format, which is mostly a jazzy table There are some pro and cons for it the Most interesting things about it is that it's perfectly standard format So if you take a package from OpenBSD and you have to look at it on an over operating system You will be able to look at it for the most part It might be a bit complicated and on Windows, but you can probably find tar on it as well Good luck.  Last time I ran Windows was about five years ago, I guess And But still every time that we are going to do something to our tools We are going to have to question whether or not we should change stuff and sometimes Some details are going to change While the outside appearance is going to say the same I already talked about signatures like you have actually a significant command field in the jazzy pedals Let's talk a bit about Chang jazzy Which is something I was aware of about 15 years ago, but back when we did the first version of signing Nadine reminded me of it like, you know, you can actually pick up a file jazzy bit pick up a second file jazzy bit as well and Conquer tenets both files together and you will end up with a valid jazzy file Like you pass it to a jazzy palm It will just unpack the first stream then the second stream and on the next you specifically ask for it You won't see the difference. It's exactly as if you had one single jazzy file. So This helped a lot at first for all style signatures Instead of having your whole package as one jazzy file needing to extract everything sign the packing list and Then repackage everything you can just do your package in two parts you're going to create Beginning of a tar archive with just a packing list You compress that Then you take the rest of the stream and you compress it separately so you have one jazzy with just a packing list you have a jazzy with Everything that goes after it and When it comes time for signing you just unpack the first part sign it Compress it again and then you just copy the rest of the file don't have to GM zip and jazzy pit again we went for From I guess far as for signing a full snapshot for full package ship not for open bsd to about 40 minutes on the same machine using this technique What's your evidence these days because as you know We no longer put the signature inside jazzy We still use this technique for reasons Like when we want to transfer packages We actually put them inside chunk jazzy with It files for each chunk so that our sink is happy with it What's going on here? Is that a few years ago and again because we already have check sums for every file inside an archive? We decided to depart a bit from the usual format Well, it's still a perfectly normal turbo, but the order doesn't match a packing list anymore this days We have the packing list which lists every file inside the archive And we have the archive proper Which does list files out of order? With the most recent files first and the files that didn't change at the end so that When you upgrade your machine instead of unpacking everything from every turbo You are only going to enter the files that do change Inside your your package and as soon as it finds that the remaining checks under just the same it will be perfectly happy to skip the end of the archive and To Tell you that the upgrade is complete For most packages, this is not a significant win like sometimes you are going to get 20% 25% If you look at stuff like the client for instance, where there are lots of very small details that change but that are completing insignificant compared to the sheer size of a package I think that the tech life package is this when you put everything together you cut one gigabyte of files And on each update with this technique You get to extract maybe 5% Of the tech life turbo so instead of 20 gigabyte 200 megabytes. No Yeah, at most That's a huge win And it also work reversing these days because we chunk files from the end and With no longer stores any time stamp inside the tarbol itself. Obviously, we're on the back end list and so in viance you are going just to Transfer the new checks at the start of archive that change And the rest I think is going to say as it is supposed to do. Okay. It didn't change. So Let's not transfer it The only reason this kind of stuff keeps happening in open bsd Is because we look at stuff that we're doing and that we are Designing stuff to be fast If we didn't have all-star signatures, we don't have thoughts about Chang jzip and then none of us would have happened actually Next case 2d The opposite to reformat itself One peculiarity of open bsd is that we don't have any index for packages Well, we do have tools that you can use For instance to look at files we have Make package look at db Which gives you a specific package which is basically look at database of every file in every package But the package tools themselves do not rely on that At first it was just a game The idea was that I Did the first version of package ad which was only doing addition then I did a bit and everything And I wanted to know how far I Could get about needing any index and then at some point maybe Ten years ago. I realized okay I've done enough. I can manage to do everything about a global index And so I do not need a global index and this is good because this is one less things that needs that can get out of sync and On your local machine as well if you look at an open bsd, you'll notice that there is one major difference with Overmachines with over operating system, which is that we don't have an actual database of everything that's installed on the machine We have a directory Vardy be package in which you have one sub directory for each package, which is installed on the machine But there is no global database that says okay. We have this that depends on that and everything everything is very fine-grained and First it's very resilient because it can get it can't get out of sync There is a small price to pay sometimes things could be slightly faster. We are working on that and there are some solutions and This decision has some consequences Some contractable Consequences actually We have Snapshots, which are about 30 gigabytes With the tools that we Have these days we you have one new snapshot every two or three days for our major architecture The of course you're not going to get a new package snapshot for spark 64 every three days That would need that we do a cry probably 200 sparks or something like that Now that's not efficient So when you upload a new snapshot You are going to get into a shearing problem Like at some point you're going to have Some of the new packages already transferred and some of the old packages Which are still there and are in the process of getting updated So this means that the solution that we currently have that each package is Independently signed is the only possible solution otherwise, you would always if you had the global signature like a manifest for every package and The checksum of every package Recorded at some point It wouldn't work because all the time you would end up with discrepancies like some of your package are I don't know what the signature is and everything There is no other solution. Like I said, there are some drawbacks to this way of doing things Some limitations for the model Everything we do is based on package names because when you are going to do an update you're not going to go into that package directory and look at Every single file for something like 9,000 packages on the ftp side these days, I think So we have to have consistent package names Sometimes this doesn't happen. So yeah, we don't have an index But we have an escape mechanism called quirks Because sometimes we want to rename stuff not too often hopefully and Then we have to open each package to check for our where are it is indeed the right update whether I some What stuff that's going on or not? package it self doesn't do it because Can't do everything. It's still lazy So we use the empty the ftp command these days which contrarily to what it says also under HTTP and HTTPS and That becomes a problem because it can be slow For instance these days We have a very minor problem, which is that you are supposed to use package add on HTTP repository and You can use it HTTPS repository, but Won't be so good Because each connection to the repository is going to be a separate connection using a separate ftp command Due to limitation of our libtel s and some design decision in ftp It means that every single ftp is going to have to wear a ticket With a full HTTPS to the distant repository and it costs a lot. I Said this is a minor problem because we have signatures which are completely independent from HTTPS So whatever happens if you connect to a fully launch repository Well, you will get Packages with bad signatures and that's it I can do it stop itself right away We should interest ftp itself and we don't At about the same time that we change signatures. We also added some level of privilege separation To package add so that ftp is actually run as its own user who can do anything We can't sorry do anything on the system. So that's perfectly fine So it's just a minor problem The issue being that if you are Using packages on your open bsd system, but still one small security implication Yeah, I think that you are falling asleep. So what's the security implication, right? We are leaking the packages we're installing Yeah Yeah, that's also a valid problem the problem being that if a hacker decides to keep a copy of an old repository before there was a security update and Potentially there could be some trouble, but we took care of it Like you have the quicks package every package if you remember one of the first slides has got a timestamp, right? and Whenever you do an update using package add each wheel it will display the timestamp for quicks which is the main package with Everything useful every meta information for the world opposite array so You have to read because we don't know at which rate snapshots are updated and it depends on the architecture But you will see that your quicks. That's back from that time So if you have a real or quicks It usually means that something wrong is going on and then inside quacks itself you've got a list of packages with security holes that have been updated since then and during the great process if package add can't find a Newer package for one of those with security implications Then it will tell you that there is a problem. So yeah, that's definitely a theoretical problem that that one we thought Yep Yes, I'm still relying that I have a recent enough quack, but I can't do anything about that Like what's recent? For md64 three or four days is recent for spark 64 six months is recent Okay Yeah, well But yeah You have to engage your brand we are talking about security. It's not it's not windows where everything is insecure by default But if you don't look at what the system tells you you're going to run into trouble Oops Okay, too much as usual I'm just going to finish with a Very recent stuff Which became part of the open PSD package systems about this one a week ago And which is called version I was talking about package names being an integral part of open BSD and sometimes we do System-wide changes this happened a few years ago When we change type left to one sign long across all architectures and this broke surplus plus Yeah, because name mongling and everything and if you change the actual type name So every function name changes and you have to bump to change Specific patch version of every package depending on surplus plus and then more recently we switched on to minor architectures from GCC to clunk and This breaks also plus plus again. Hmm. Maybe there is something wrong with a plus plus So we did bug every package the first time The people who helped doing that are still scared by it We don't want to do it again. So this time we decided. Okay.  I don't like you and you have to update everything by hand force an update and Then Stuart with a very smart guy Convince me that maybe I should try to find something else to do and at first I thought I'm not going to do that because basically, I need to put best system dependency somewhere and I Hate that because I'm going to end up with a fire in source But I will have to burn from time to time and I'm going to run into Theo all over again Which is a problem because when you get two heroes in front of each other we fight usually and In the path I realized I was going to get it all wrong Like I don't need at all to have a dependency on the best system I can put it directly inside the package and first version was born Like what we have right now is that each package has got a kind of Silent member that gets bump inside the package system proper We vote any reference to the source system and we vote any dependency to external stuff It's very simple like if you have a package that says version zero and Then you look at the snapshot and you see a package that says version one. Okay That's a new package. I just update Though it builds it's built. It's be strange. We have a Flag to package cat which is minus V where that you can use multiple time to build a version number by adding numbers together The idea is that it's very simple to do that without needing any make magic So that you can have machine and apartment parts and machine dependent parts in the same make fight Like currently you have the wall open-based the system, which is at version zero and then when you run MD 64 Interprocessors it goes up to one because of a second minus V and It turned out to be incredibly simple Like if you look at this patch For the amount of code I had to change it's about 20 lines All considered And it changes everything Like now we have a mechanism that was used to move to GCC to clonk seamlessly like if you're running open-based this table and you move from 6.1 to 6.2 you won't notice Hopefully that we change compilers especially the package system Well, you will notice that you will update almost every package, but that's it And it can be used again in the future without needing anything more. So that's really cool Yeah, well, I was a bit long so I was also going to talk about the future But I don't think I have any time for that. So, yeah, maybe another talk next year Thank you. And of course I'm going to take questions No, but I can talk in this one maybe for once Questions for those of us running snapshots Obviously But anyway, we're going to make our lives lives easier Sometimes I'm in the situation where I installed a version of user land and it turns out the snapshots Of packages are not yet updated. So I have to wait 12 24 hours Is there any way I can know beforehand that I'm not blowing my system away the next day I'm afraid that we don't have enough human resources to be able to help you on this one like The most we could do is to get the turnover to be faster, which already did but basically being able to inform you that When the snapshots are going to be online, it's just extra communication Which takes more time like if you do this stuff, you're going to have to wait for a few more hours each time probably Also, I think that very some paranoia involved Like some details of the singing process are not completely public who's signing on which machine this is done and We don't want to leak information concerning that. Sorry Maybe I can reply to this question. You everyone has its own acts and you can just Follow the CVS commits see when the library gets bumped for example And you just compare with what's on the mirror right now because as Mark told you can extract the package and look what's inside and you will see in the signature if It matches what's in the package will match what you will have on your running snapshot. So maybe you can Download the snapshot look at the last library when when it was bumped in the case of libraries When you have breaking change in the kernel But then you can compare that the snapshot will match the libraries which are in the packages And everyone has his own acts this way Actually, there might be a solution Assuming the canal doesn't change too much because you will be fucked them obviously You could use the tools that we used to build ports P would you should You can use it to populate an area of a disk with a snapshot for instance And then you go into into that area and you could try to do a package add minus M There to check whether or not it will work That's a bit intensive, but at least that's Almost no human intervention. You probably can do that in with a shell script that would be about 20 lines long But it will be Anyone else with this package versions Do you bump them manually and do you bump the version for all packages or only for that that are affected by some? GCC plus or C++ update now the idea is to bump everything system one more or less Like we have this Mechanism that some people objected to but we are that we are very happy to have these days Which is that you can have arch independent packages package arch equal to star And basically I use that to not put any version in my packages because I know that both packages are just Text files more or less and because they're independent of the architecture and everything else got bumped It's it's a it's a question of being safe better than sorry because You already have dependencies where you more or less know that Most packages that depend on clang have been updated like if you depend on the C library on the C++ library Of course, you're going to get bumped, but he didn't catch everything. So we just decided to bump it all We don't have enough human resources to check every single package that varies compatibility I got it right the package With the arch star are not updated by the version Yeah, yeah, there is no version in those packages and this mechanism is actually Somewhat more generic like if we want to add Another part to the version part we could As a question over Yeah, perhaps it doesn't really fit the model but If you have reproducible builds then Then you might be able to say well I'm rebuilding this package, but it's but the result is the same. So there's no need to upgrade Well, we try to have reproducible parts for lots of stuff but Actually, it does some security If you look at a recent OpenBSD machine, you'll notice that it does Running its kernel in random orders. It's running some libraries in random orders And we try to add some randomization so that some kind of exploits are more complex So reproducible builds. Yeah, that's nice goal when you are trying to debug stuff but It's more complexity because then you in an OpenBSD setting you will have to have Different switches so that sometimes you build reproducibly and over times you have more security and That's while there are bugs and You're going to run into them I have a very specific sample of a recent problem that we had to fix after we switched to Klang On almost every OpenBSD Exhibitable you've got an OpenBSD specific section which is called OpenBSD random data Which is mostly used to seed the canary generator for stack protection and everything and Klang which is a bit stupid just decided that because it's a section it doesn't know about It's out to be filled with zeros And we had to fix that And this was completely out of the blue nobody who worked with Klang noticed until I think it was still it's himself who noticed that it was the case and If you do reproducible build Then you lose some of the security features that we have And if you do that as a switch Uh, then maybe you will break something and you will notice six months later like this happened for some overseas Let this live So Yeah, okay All right, if there are no further questions, I'd like to thank mark for your presentation and thank you for listening guys


Hi everybody, how's it going? We are here a little bit earlier than normal today because we have a special guest from the Netherlands So we're excited to introduce you to And we're excited to kick off our challenge for this week So we took a little bit of a break last week, which I think was good. I know I needed some sleep So it was probably although do as anyone on wikich you really take a break Really no It's kind of an obsession so for not doing the challenge we find other ways to keep keep ourselves busy, huh? We do hi hi to everybody in the chat. Let's see. I think we have a bunch of our usuals Chris F Tommy June Steven whose last name I never try to say I Know if is here And hioka Mm-hmm and Ann Maggie John from Ireland So oh John has this his first time he's come in He comes to date night, right? Yes, that's right. You're right. I'm going to come back on. He's one of our future guest stars so Let me introduce the people who are here case. You don't know most of us yet. I'm a when I'm a team member at wikich tree That is Julie. She's also a team member at wikich tree. That is Mindy She is our coordinator of the challenge and basically the one that keeps it running behind the scenes And then if you don't know this is event Hoytink, which hopefully I said, right? She is our Dutch guest star who will learn more about in just a little bit So I'm going to turn over to Mindy and just a sec after I tell you about wiki tree and the wiki tree challenge in case you Also aren't familiar with that So wiki tree is a community of genealogists who are working together on this single family tree In other words, we collaborate to grow an accurate global tree that connects us all and most remarkably It's completely free The wiki tree challenge is what we decided to do for our year-long event as part of our year of accuracy and Each week a team of wiki trees takes on a genealogy guest stars tree and collaborates to make it more accurate and complete than it is anywhere else Our goal is to improve our accuracy on wiki tree add more family connections and make more friends So Mindy is going to explain a little bit about how all of this works Now one thing we do have to do well is collaboration So good thing it's wiki tree and we have several ways to do that during the challenge week On the left you see the spreadsheet We try and put the profile that we're working on there We wind up with sometimes 35 40 people working on the branches at the same time So if you put the profile there then somebody doesn't come in and accidentally save over your work or something And then take it out when you're done on the right You'll see the g2g post and we have a new one of those each week featuring our guest star And that's where we go ahead and put any bounty points that we're claiming if you have an interesting fact You want to point out if you have a question and you haven't put it in discord? We use the g2g post for a lot of things And then finally is discord and this one we can't do without We have people that are from all over the world. So there's almost always somebody in there talking We churri chud chudder on we'll take a second look at a record for you We have people that do nothing but add stickers look up newspaper articles There's a lot going on in there And then there's two types of ways that we can score now Of course, we don't do this just for the points and we love the fact that we're able to give this kind of a Genealogy gift to somebody but we are human and it is a good motivator So there's two types of basic scores that you can get now we have the bounty points Which are the big ones and that would be ten points for each new brick wall and Ancestor on a line or if you find an incorrect ancestor and you can disprove them on that line That's ten points We have single points and these are given for every direct ancestor added even beyond the brick wall and for all of the nuclear family so that would be siblings or children and Those points can actually add up pretty fast We have at the end of a week somebody that we go ahead and announces our most valuable player MVP of the week and that would be the person that gets the total top score So all of the profiles they've added plus their bounty points Did I lucha Okay, sorry top teams My computer slowed down on me now We wanted to do a little bit of refresher here and and point out how well everybody's done I know how excellent you guys have done, but it's fun to see the numbers so we're we're heading towards that six months mark and These are our total so far. We have total points 10,553 created ancestors 1630 that's just direct ancestors. It's incredible Relatives now those are those nuclear relatives. We were talking about 4582 for bounty points. Here you go 4340 so that's 434 new brick wall ancestors You guys are awesome Profiles edited these are unique profiles edited 15213 So, you know, you guys have done a lot of improving and helping with the accuracy of wiki tree And then of course total edits and this really goes to show how much you're working on the health of the tree 64229 Wow Like I don't we didn't have because we had no idea how this would go and we started it So I don't think we had a way to even expect anything But I just I'm floored every week. I know and and every time they blow us away We get some new big number Numbers will double this week, right? Yeah Maybe triple they might triple We'll work on that just for you Okay, and then I want to acknowledge Two sets of top teams here now since this has started this year for the total score of the team that got the highest score For their week that was team cross on down cross this week. So they had 1202 total points 410 bounty points the team captain was Emma Macbeth way to go Emma and most valuable player Maddie Harbin And then the other top team I'd like to point out now This was our highest scoring bounty points in one week since we've started and that was team good one They had 1174 total points. So just a little bit behind what what Dallas team did But their bounty points were 610 that was just 61 brick wall ancestors. It was an amazing week that everybody was so hard to keep up with We just kept adding points and adding points the team captains were Janet Wilde and Joan Whitaker and the most valuable player Now this was her first time winning this award this year was Carol Keeling. So way to go Carol That's fantastic So cool, you guys are amazing Just the amount of work that gets done and the collaboration like I think yeah It's taken a lot of us to a whole new level of collaboration, too It's fun to pop in on the discord server and watch the conversation that's rolling away It's like you can't pick up with it sometimes for sure So that's our overall progress which is great We're excited as we said to have a vet here this week She is from the Netherlands and so we're super excited because we have another lens project on wiki tree Our Dutch Reads project and our Dutch members have been pouring in this week to help with this challenge They're excited. We're excited everyone's excited So it's been nice to see them You know come and help because we really need them this week Not that we don't need them other weeks we need you guys every week We love our Dutch we do we love our ditch in particular and in a couple of weeks to you guys It's time to be in the spotlight We do and there was a lot of people in there making new friends yesterday. I know it was so cool Yeah, that was really fun to see that's one of our goals make new friends And we always thought that would be like an outside genealogy community But I think we've had a lot of wiki chairs make friends with each other Definitely it's been really good for that too so many extra bonuses to this challenge that we didn't even think about when we started it so Good stuff. All right Yvette I'm gonna tell you a little bit about her She is a board certified genealogist in the Netherlands who helps people find their Dutch ancestors A super cool fact that I learned about her today Is that she's the only genealogist in the Netherlands to hold the certified genealogist credential, which is pretty pretty epic Um, she has an amazing website. That's an excellent resource for resource for Dutch researchers It's uh, dutch genealogy.nl. She definitely check it out if you're doing any kind of research in Dutch. I was looking that or in the Netherlands I was looking at it today and Uh, she mentioned she started it in 1993. So it's probably one of the oldest genealogy websites out there And she's been blogging for years and it looks like there's a ton of great information there Uh, she specializes in tracing Dutch immigrants Including people who settled in new netherland the united states canada australia in new zealand She is a writer and a lecturer and in january she started up what she calls Level up challenge for her ancestors and if she's willing maybe she can tell us a little bit about that because it's pretty cool sure So the level up challenge is something I came up with because um, I'm revisiting my old research I don't know about you, but I've been doing genealogy for 30 years And some of my older profiles are in worse shape than my newer ones And I wanted to have a way to keep track of how I'm doing So the level up challenge is a level one is an ancestor. I only know the name for and level two I know their vital statistics at level three. I know where they live throughout their lives At level four, I also know if they owned property and if they ever were in prison And at level five, I've just about exhausted all reasonable records that I can expect to find And at level six, I've written all of that up in the form of a biography and Yeah, and dna painter actually added these levels now in a dimension So you can create a fan chart where you can manually add the different levels and then you can see in your tree Uh, what level you are. So I have a lot of like red orangey stuff. That's the level one maybe two But the recent ones are maybe level four because I've been trying to level them up Nice. My first goal is to get my first six generations up to level four So I know pretty much about their lives in in that's really cool easily accessible. Yeah Yeah, that's pretty cool I loved it when I first saw it and I've been meaning to try it So hopefully sometime this year I can kind of talk a lot because I think it's a great way to go re-approach your Research you can define your own level. Some people say well, I want to include dna in in these levels I haven't done that because uh, it's I There are not many people who test dna in the Netherlands not as much as in other countries So I don't have many serendipitous matches and not many people want to test for me So I have left that as a separate thing. This is just how my archival research is doing, but you can define your own levels It's just an easy way to keep score for yourself and see where you need to do your next work Yeah, definitely Now Yvette, what got you interested in genealogy? um I I had a lego city when I was 10 where I already had a population register Where of each doll in which house they lived so I think there were early warning signs back then But it all started when my first cousin was older than me She was pregnant and there was this story that it might be twins Because our grandfather was a twin and grandpa had just died earlier that year and that freaked me out The idea that I could be running into my deceased grandfather's identical twin because that's what the story said So I took the train across the country I was 15 at the time of course in the Netherlands across the country is like two hours, but still and I went to the archives and looked up my grandfather's birth certificate to see if he had a twin brother And he didn't his mother had had a child out of wedlock one and a half years before he was born So I had found my first scandal my first family secret that I debunked and well the rest is history So that's how I got involved in genealogy Very cool. Now. Do you have a favorite ancestor? Yeah, um, I think it's uh, it used to be aren't kastein. He's a constable who was It's a police constable and most of my other ancestors are farmers and laborers And I love them all equally, but police constables create more records Yeah So but now I'm currently doing a project where I'm trying to prove my descent from Eleanor of equity So we know France and England in the 12th century I'm two generations away. So I've now proven 27 generations If I can make those last two connections. I'm pretty sure she will take the first place Wow About that on my blog so you can go to my website and tip in Eleanor or equity and you can find all the I've written one blog post per generation documenting all the resources per generation documenting all that is so cool It's a very fun project, but it's getting really hard 12th century. Yeah Now you told us about the first scandal you found What other interesting stories or scandals have you found in your branches? Well, just this week I found it's not really a big scandal, but I thought it was fascinating one of my female ancestors She was very poor And I found her put in jail three times in three years for cutting grass in her neighbor's meadow And I think that's just so sad to think that she was so poor She probably had a goat or something that needed to be fed And so she Cut some grass and probably fed it to the goat But that was considered theft And she had to go to jail for eight days each time. So 24 days in all And what's special about that is that the prison records give physical description So now know what she looks like. Oh, this is a woman born in 1834. So you never know that otherwise No What a cool find Yeah So that may be the biggest scandal like grass, but still I love their personal stories So do I I love that I love finding those little tidbits Yeah, anything that tells you about their lives and not just the dates in the places Yes, and that's one of the things that That we love about the biographies on wiki tree two is that you are able to do that we can go in and narrate What we've learned and take some of that information out of the records we found and try and bring that person to life again And I just absolutely love that Yeah, me too Some of our researchers, that's one of their favorite things to do is to go out and find all little articles that they can So you'll you'll get some nice surprises. I hope hopefully and the Netherlands has great resources online Like delfer the newspaper website where they digitized many of the newspapers since the 18th century All for free. So yeah, the great resources And when did you first discover wiki tree? um, I think it was around 2014 It was for a client project a new netherland project and I was doing a google search and wiki tree popped up and it was They had some information that was incorrect and I figured well. It's a collaborative tree. I'll fix it um, so and I added the original record that approved the Origins of the family. I must say I haven't done much with it since because I'm very busy with client projects and I'm I'm studying and have a family But yeah, I've used it as a resource so more as a way to Find records and I've been impressed with the quality of the new netherland projects profiles Thank you. Thank you on their behalf Thank you for when you found something incorrect you came and fixed it because you know our collaborative tree Instead of just dismissing us And walking away that's we love that when people come and fix things Yeah, it's also a bit of an experiment for me. My first career was in it and I'm curious to see how this kind These kinds of systems work. So I checked it the other day and my edit is still up. So that's Fine I fixed it and I documented to make sure to include the original source with the photo and everything and It survived and that's what you expect, right? People do good at it. Yes. Yes Absolutely I just have one quick question from our chat It was actually from the previous question when you were talking about how you had the physical description of the woman And frank wanted to know if you had an artist to try to create a picture from the description I've actually been looking at those police mugshot like the police artist. You have software that does that for you but The details are too sparse to do that. It's like hair color round face Low forehead it's too. Yeah, it's a little too big too big. Yeah, but I've been Playing around with software just to get like mugshots Of my ancestors just as a mnemonic to see who has blue eyes who has gray eyes, but It didn't really work, but it was fun to play with I bet sure sounds fun. Yeah You do have that it bring there I can see that Yep, and then we've we've talked about the fact that your tree is already so just it's so impressive It's it's massive It is and you know out of the ninth generation and I know you're proven out to 12 or 15 or further on some of those But even at the ninth generation you only have 11 brick walls out of 255 possible ancestors on the paternal side and then 25 brick walls on the maternal side plus that little chunk that needs to be DNA proven But if you had to pick one particular area that you would really like to see expanded, what would it be? um, I think there There are some ancestors on my father's side that came from other countries to the Netherlands That those are the ones I haven't exhausted the sources yet in the Netherlands because they're all from the area around Winterswijk And I purchased those transcriptions when I was 16 from my pocket money. So I kind of Ducked deep there. So I think the best chance of breaking brick walls there is in The non-dutch ancestral lines actually. So I know you've all these Dutch volunteers lined up, but for those on my maternal side I think you should get a hundred bonus points if you break a brick wall there because those are all very solid There are some where there are online trees that have further ancestors, but I haven't been able to find proof And then I don't add them. So right Yeah, I know my mother's side. There are several People whom I just haven't had the time to research yet So there there's probably more potential for a brick wall breaking there And I have some missing fathers of illegitimate children on that and I don't think those will be solved without DNA So I think those are like I know in one case that a father Acknowledged the child when she was seven But I haven't found DNA evidence yet or convincing DNA evidence I have some that he was the biological father. So I haven't added him as the father just as the husband of the mother My program doesn't allow you to add multiple fathers. So I have to pick one Otherwise I would have added him as the legal father And then what is the main thing you hope to get out of the challenge itself? I think it's um like a bit of reflection or just a new Set of eyes like how am I doing? Are there things or these things I've been missing? and just also from Yeah, see how this works this collaborative tree like is this something that Um, yeah, it's worth doing. I think it is but how does it work in practice? My knowledge is mostly theoretical. I've doubled a bit with the family search family tree Uh a little bit with the wiki tree and I think it's just fun to see how it works and if you break any break walls, I'd be Highly surprised to be honest because I've been doing this for a while and I'd be so blown away. So any break wall is like 100 There you go guys So one or two right Just one really on my father's side the last time I broke through a break wall was six years ago Just to give you an idea Yeah And that was actually while working on my portfolio for the board for certification of genealogists Where I was documenting a known line and doing reasonably exhaustive research and found out I have the wrong cousin To same-named cousin as my ancestor. So I found an error in my own tree So if anyone finds an error in my tree, I would be really happy too because I want to improve the quality So that would count as a break wall as well. I think I don't know Yeah, and then we do like to make these profiles as nice as we can so we generally ask if you have any photographs that we can use for Some of the profiles if there are my photos that I uploaded you can use them if I save them from other people's tree You'd need their permission Like all my ancestry trees some of them are safe from other people's trees. So I can't give permission for them right Very cool So we do if you guys have any questions free vet you can put them in the chat and we'll ask her I did see if said You didn't have any ancestors who are sent to v in hueson Fane house or the call v in hausen Yeah, that's the that's the colonies where they sent to poor people. No, mine were just not Just right side of poor to stay in their own communities So no, that's most I think one in five or so people in the Netherlands one in ten Have paupers who were sent to the the colonies to dig peat then those people who were Convicted as beggars. You would be said you would be shipped there and work in the peat colonies and that's just a Part of the Netherlands that they were trying to cultivate using force labor. Interesting. Wow Yeah, yeah, I guess she said I Guess she said they took pictures of all the people who were sent to those Yeah, I know And also some of the Hardened criminals that were released but mine just cut grass. So they didn't make the no pictures No picture And then another question is do you have a language preference for the profiles that they're creating? No, because we can we like to do them and Especially when we have people who can do them in the native language But then we usually also do them in English. We kind of try and do both When we can touch touch or a French English German doesn't matter all four guys all four Latin All five Yeah, I read 12 languages. So I'm good. Oh, well, then you're good Yeah, good to go Um, and then Lewis Kester asked do all your ancestral lines as far back as you can go originate in the Netherlands And no the constable I just talked about he Moved across the street when he was young and that street was the border between the Netherlands and Germany So he was born in Germany moved across the street and then he was that Which meant he had to have a royal decree to be naturalized before he could join the police force Wow So yeah, I have a few Germans on my father's side because Winterswijk is just on the eastern border of the Netherlands And some of them are just across the border I have a few jugonaut lines french jugonaut in my zealand lines from my mother's side And my mother's side lived in the south of the Netherlands and some are from what's now belgium So and and I've won scottish line the There's scottish soldier Paul Trommel t-r-o-m-e-l And he came from Edinburgh as a mercenary soldier in the early 1600s to fight in the Netherlands And a very distant cousin of mine did why dna testing and it's supposed to be turnbull in Edinburgh, and he even found a marriage record. So Oh my wow in 1615 98, I think so, yeah, that's uh, that's my And I'm now studying at the scottish university. So that's my one uk ancestor that I can click That's really cool Um, do you have any questions for us? No, I I I sit on my hands for a week, right? We want to be able to surprise you Yeah Yeah, like I said, I haven't broken the brick wall on my father's side in six years I don't think the chance is very large that I will do the break one in the next week now I'll be Curious to see what you do and if you need any help or or need more information about my tree You can go to dutch genealogy dot nl and use the contact form to ask me a question. I don't know if that's allowed, but Absolutely, that's uh, that's fine No beeping. Okay Yeah, that's good that you mentioned it. Yeah, I'll uh, I'll stay off wiki tree for a week It'll be hard. Yeah Well, you can do it. You're luring me in I think I feel myself Pulled in. Yeah, that's good. That's what we're trying to do The week goes by fast for the researchers Yeah Yeah, I'm gonna be curious Yeah Um, Mindy, did you have any other questions forever? But I think we've covered it Cool. Well, I'm gonna say Let's wrap this up so people can go and research. So Thank you Yvette for being one of our guest stars. We're so happy to have you Thank you Mindy for all the work you do to keep the challenge going Thank you people who have come and hang out on this chat with us We always appreciate that and your comments wouldn't be the same without you We just talk to ourselves and we do that all the time. Anyway, so we like having fresh voices Thank you ahead of time to everyone who's going to do the research this week We're excited to see you guys find And We'll be back in a week so we can Share with you about what we found So go to work. Can't wait success. Hi everybody Success That means and if you have How do you say it? Success, but it means good luck in Dutch. It's not just the words the same. It's success in English, but it means Yeah Now we know Cool and if you haven't subscribed to us. Yes, that's what we're gonna say. Hopefully we have a lot of it Um, oh and if you haven't subscribed to our channel, you should subscribe to it because we do these awesome videos every week Can you don't want to miss out? So is that We will say goodbye Have fun research hard