and most importantly our hearts and we're so glad that you're joining us for hope today because we love to bring you inspiration for your everyday life and I'm so happy that it's Monday and Tom and Amanda are here with us today and we have such an incredible guest with us. Oh, I know Patrick Morley is going to be with us. He has a book called The Four Voices and have you ever been frustrated with different voices in your head trying to sort that out? What's God and what's the other competing voices that are in there? We're going to find out exactly how to do that. You know what? It's going to set you on a new path of clarity in understanding the voice of the Holy Spirit. It's going to be great. Don't miss it. Awesome and then of course we had an amazing event y'all in our city this weekend. I'm still recovering. I mean I am shades of pink and red but it was an awesome time. You know this moment of Pittsburgh praise was we were singing amazing grace and this wonderful cloud blocked the sun from the crowd and I just thought in reality you know that is the grace of God that when he keeps the wrath that we should be getting from hitting us and I'm like I was ever grateful for that cloud and we should have just kept singing amazing grace because when we were done y'all the cloud left and the sun stayed but it was an awesome event. It was awesome. It was an incredible display of unity. I mean you saw people of all different colors and different backgrounds and I think it didn't matter if you're Catholic, Protestant, whatever. I feel like those that doesn't matter we are all one in Jesus Christ and it was so beautiful. I think there was a picture right there you see on the stage. I mean there was like overflow people and this was worship. I love that there was a community there was a unity choir so it was different people from churches from across the area and one touching moment at the very end that there was a cross that were carrying the cross and that was actually a cross made from light of life our friends that are over there and that there was prayers written for from the men and women who were at the shelter and actually the men that were carrying the cross are part of the program and the the covering of the purple cover was actually made from the women from light of life. So it was such a beautiful and touching tribute and we had an opportunity to show it here on Cornerstone too. So if you were able to watch and tune in we were all joined in. It was such an incredible time Tom. I know we were so glad to be able to broadcast that and you know it was it was something that we we kind of came in kind of late but we were able to get it all put together. In fact I got a text at like five minutes to four saying they're going to go longer than four o'clock because they were everything was a little bit behind. That's that happens a lot and we were able to extend that and put a broadcast another half an hour. But being there we moved out of the sun Amanda up into the shade. You know there was a little bit of a shade just a little bit of a shady area but it was great to see the body of Christ praying together showing the love of God and just you know praying for the city. It was awesome. It was truly incredible. You know one Pittsburgh pastor described Pittsburgh praise as dopeness which I wholeheartedly agree and those are the words from our dear friend Pastor Michael Day from Legacy International Worship Center and he's joining us live today from his church in the city's northside neighborhood to talk about a community initiative happening today with police officers. Pastor Mike we're so happy to have you with us today. Oh glad to be here thank you all for allowing me to do this part of me. I'm still recovering myself from an amazing day yesterday from all the different amazing events that happened here in Pittsburgh but thank you for having me live here at Legacy. Yeah I know I don't like we're all feeling it right now we're so getting the glory and just like the over after glow but you know tell us about what's going on today at your church and it's part of a new movement called faith in blue. Yes I'm really excited in a few hours clergy community leaders the police of Pittsburgh are all coming together live here at 11 o'clock for what is called the community cookout there's initiative faith in blue is partnering with one cop which is a national movement that is projected to make sure that clergy and the police and families are partners have great relationship and have fellowship within the community it's solely about police and clergy coming together to make sure we have safer cities and safer communities and so we're having a huge cookout here at 11 o'clock right here on the north side. Pastor Mike I love that so much and why would you say now more than ever especially here in the city of Pittsburgh I mean we've have seen so much violence and different things breaking up that it's important for faith leaders Christian leaders and the police to come together for such a time as this. Well we believe that the church should be the forefront should be the voice of any initiative that's going on in the world and so we believe that a part of that is connecting with the local authorities whether elected officials or our police department to collaborate and to partner to make sure that we have the proper resources support and partnership to make sure that our communities our youth and our families feel safe and that the police are actually are part of the relationship in our communities and so the clergy are making sure that we are doing that as well. We wholeheartedly like appreciate that and you know one thing how can we pray for you know the north side and the city of Pittsburgh I know at Pittsburgh praise yesterday Mayor Ganey was talking about praying for the youth there's you think we should be continue we're obviously going to continue to pray for the youth but there's anything specifically also that we need as a body of Christ to pray for your community. Pray pray for the youth pray for the families most importantly pray for strategy for us community leaders we need strategy so we have been doing a lot of meetings a lot of conversations around the violence of our youth but we really need the wisdom of God and the Holy Spirit to give us guidance on how to not only impact the youth but families but also how to collaborate with the police how to collaborate with that elected officials such as Mayor Ganey who are completely a hundred percent supportive of this movement and so we really need the wisdom of God because a lot of this is very new to especially specifically our city and so we want to make sure that we do it in excellence. That is so good thank you so much Pastor Mike and one final quick question do we need to bring anything to the cookout do we have to bring a dish or would sell we're all good. Everybody just come out the food is on its way the police department zone one is on its way in minutes and so just come anybody can come everybody you do you do only even have to be a part of the Northside community this is for the city and so we're just really excited to welcome everybody come on down 11 o'clock 21 31 Wilson Avenue Legacy International Worship Center we are excited to receive you. Well thank you so much Pastor Mike and we know it's going to be a great event thank you thank you Tom anytime you get people to get it for cookout it's a good time it's a good time in the city well our next guest is the executive chairman of the popular global man in the mirror ministry Patrick Morley is also one of the most respected authorities on the unique challenges and opportunities facing men and in his new book the four voices he shares how you can determine where the four conflicting voices in your mind are coming from and what they're saying and how you can let the Holy Spirit take control of the conversation Patrick welcome to hope today well thank you thank you Tom and Amanda Sydney good to be with you and hello Pittsburgh well great to have you and Patrick you know maybe we could start with you know are those those voices those four voices biblically what are the four voices that compete for real estate in my mind yeah so let me just give you the whole arc of the the book in like one minute okay so we all know that we have a running conversation with ourselves all day long we call it self talk we need self talk that's how we take all the bits and pieces of our lives and fit them together into some kind of a congruent story that helps us make sense of things however you are not the only voice in that conversation there are these four other voices the world the flesh the devil and the Holy Spirit and they are constantly exerting themselves to influence what we think say and do our job your job is to figure out which voice is speaking and then take control of the conversation pretty cool huh I mean that is so important to have that discernment which I really think this this is what this is it's a it's a discernment to know what what God is is is saying what the Holy Spirit is saying let me ask you about maybe we could take one of these right off the top here the world could you define that and how is the world getting inside you know getting into that conversation what things are happening to bring the world into that conversation in our minds oh that's a great question so Tom the world is in a biblical sense when the Bible starts talking about the world it's not talking about the whole creation I think it's important to understand that there's a lot of good in the fact Frodo said there's a lot of good in the world and it's worth fighting for it Francis Schaefer said that the world has a lot of leftover beauty so the world's a beautiful place but when the Bible talks about the world it's talking about that part of the world which is fallen or not redeemed so let me give you an example so when I was a young businessman just getting started I knew where I wanted to work what kind of work I wanted to do and I was able to get an appointment with the owner of the company this real estate company and he said you know I think you have a lot of promise but the problem is you don't have enough gray hair nobody's going to pay any attention to you so we can't hire you so that's the voice of the world saying you know you're too young to make a difference but then I have older guys tell me all the time that the message they're getting you know we don't need you anymore we're done with you you know you're expendable you've been used up you don't have anything to offer anymore and so the world's telling the older guy you can't make a difference so watch this the world the fallen world is telling you it doesn't make any difference whether you're young or you're older you really can't make a difference but the bible gives a totally different report so david was a commander of thousands and tens of thousands of men in his 20s joseph was leading egypt in his 20s jesus joseph and david all began their formal careers at the age of 30 so the bible says you know it doesn't make any difference if you're young you can make a difference and then on the flip side you look at sarah abraham moses paul they all played their best music in the last one third of their lives so the bible says it doesn't make any difference if you're young or old you can always make a difference and see how subtle the world's voice is in in in terms of trying to influence what we think say and do it but you can uh once under understanding how that works of course then you can make the adjustment i think this is a very needed concept for all of us today because there are so many voices that we are hearing but your reference you know to the bible as your guide as our plumb line that we line everything we're thinking about up to talk to us about you know how as sheep you know do we know the voice of the shepherd what does that look like well so it's it's very interesting father son holy spirit right so most of us can understand at least the analogy of god is our father he's creator sustainer redeemer and jesus of course was god in the form of human flesh taking on human flesh for a season so we could really understand god but the holy spirit is a bit more of a tricky idea for most people most people don't really have a visual image of the holy spirit in the mind let me give you an idea though that might help you in your thinking listeners the bible says in second tibia chapter three that all scripture is breathed by god and the bible says that god is spirit and so the spirit of god is is breathing his word through human agency inspiring 40 different human authors to use their own words but to get his ideas across and so the bible actually is the voice of the holy spirit how about that now that's a wild one am i just i might have just blown somebody's mind on that one i mean that that is so good to to know that voice of the spirit through the scriptures and you know i want to i want to just back up one one little step here to the the you know you mentioned the devil the voice of the devil and i don't really want the devil stomping around in my my brain like that and and giving me his thoughts how do we recognize when something because the devil can be subtle you know obviously there's there's clear things when we're tempted to do sin we know that's the enemy but how do we know when it's a subtle temptation from the enemy when you wake up in the middle of the night this is 2 a.m is when the devil does his best work right so you you wake up and you start having thoughts and those tumble on the other thoughts and before you know it you're way off base and so a friend of mine one of my co-teachers at our friday morning bible study he says if it doesn't sound like the holy spirit it's not him so when you have a voice in your head that is leading you to have negative thoughts about your spouse to be unduly angry at your children for acting like well however old they are and they're supposed to be acting that age anyway you can be fairly confident that it's either the the the world the flesh of the devil is working on you here's the problem with all these these three negative voices they don't raise their hand and say oh excuse me could i please say something now they just sort of jump in and they're often talking over each other so what i've done in this book to help you the reader is i've said to each of these voices you each of you go to your corner and don't say anything shut up and i'm going to talk about you individually so that people can understand who you are and how you operate and how to take control of the conversation when you're speaking so now in reality these voices are talking over each other right but those are just a few thoughts that you might take into account this is so needed i heard you talk about that that morning bible study and i know that that is an important part it should of all of our lives but if you could help us in our viewing audience you know how do we apply this how is the you have like a study book or something that a person could follow a guide to get to know god in his voice yeah so in this book okay if you've read my books then you know that i'm very careful i want to make sure that we're trying to solve the right problem because you've if you're trying to solve the wrong problem you can only succeed by accident right so we do spend a good amount of time 10 or 20 of the time trying to really understand what the issues are but the vast majority of all my books in this book included it's about solutions so i have 27 very practical strategies or ideas in this book all biblical right out of the bible on how we can control the conversation or in our head and there's some of the stand things you think about some of you who are followers of Jesus would know about the armor of god so about the armor of god in there i talk about the seven ways in the bible to concern god's will you're trying to figure out which voice is speaking figure out what the will of god is that's the situation and so i would say half of the book it's about the holy spirit and maybe half of the book is about the other voices is how you can get mastery of them you know patrick i know going through your book you've got i mean you've got even like charts to kind of help us discern where that voice is coming from let me just ask you for a story either a personal story someone you know that's been helped by really being able to sort out those voices in in our minds yes so i have a friend one of our table leaders at a friday morning bible study estranged from his father very difficult relationship both he and his sister estranged for decades from his father he took a job i'm in orlando he took a job down in palm beach which is about a three three and a half hour drive from here to be the c of a small startup insurance company and so he would leave every monday morning and then drive down and he'd come back on thursday evening to watch his daughter play soccer and then lead his table on friday morning so one morning he was on his way down to palm beach west bomb and about five thirty in the morning he heard a voice in his head call your father well he said i haven't talked to my father in decades and besides his five thirty in the morning and and then about an hour later he heard this voice again call your father he said why can't call my father he wouldn't answer anyways too early and then about a half an hour later the voice in his head when are you going to call your father and at that point he realized kind of like young samuel uh the uh hearing the voice of the lord for the first time that it must be the holy spirit and so he called his father not expecting his father to answer the phone at all his father picked up the phone and they had this great conversation and my friend david invited his father to come to the annual thanksgiving prayer breakfast that we put on here in orlando not expecting his father to say yes he did say yes he came he gave his life to jesus christ there was this incredible reconciliation between david and his father and his sister as well and then not only that the father started attending the friday morning bible study and sat at david's table and the son who was not discipled by the father was able to disciple his own father and that father sat at that table for the next 10 years until he died that's the power of knowing how to take control of the conversation wow that is such a tremendous story patrick uh thank you so much the book is called the four voices taking control of the conversation in your head patrick again thank you so much that was great thank you tom amanda sydney thank you so much well we're gonna take just a short break and we'll be right back to pray for you are you feeling distant from god could it be because you're ignoring his word maybe you don't know where to start maybe the long books and strange names feel overwhelming perhaps you just don't like reading whatever the case how to eat your bible will help you cultivate an appetite for lifelong study of god's word find practical guidance for overcoming the hurdles that have kept you from making bible study a regular part of your life pastor nate picowitz also includes a unique seven-year bible plan so that you can apply what you've learned and continue drawing near to god as you consume his word request your copy of how to eat your bible when you donate your best gift to ctvn call us at<PHONE_NUMBER> or give at ctvn.org slash donate thank you for giving to cornerstone television this program has been a full program and just to give you hope today and uh starting out with michael you know the event in pittsburgh get connected god's one an amazing thing and then what patrick just shared you know even that testimony and i love the word that kept coming to me that he was saying was bible study like getting in god's word is so important it's the only way we're going to get accustomed to know his voice it's like my husband when i hang out with him so often which i have for well 27 years this year praise god but i know his voice like when he's talking i can point it out i'm like dad's somewhere around here i hear him kids and that's the type of knowing that god wants us to have with him but it requires us spending time with him so with that being said i'd love to read our scripture for the day and it's coming from proverbs 423 and it says above all else guard your heart for everything you do flows from it said this is just full of wisdom for us today it is proverbs is a book that's full of wisdom and i just think about our hearts and our hearts like if we're all just want to keep it real our hearts can are very wicked there's a lot of yuck inside of there but when you spend time with jesus when you get into the like the quietness and just listen to him and he starts speaking to you but like you know what i want to deal with this issue i want to speak to you about what's going on here it's in those moments that i love that the holy spirit will share scripture with me that's very convicting or god will speak something to me to just kind of redirect my mind or my path and so i think it's so important having a relationship with god and being very connected to the word whatever god speaks to you always lines up with the word of god so i love that so much because out of our hearts they says everything you do flows from it so we got to have a heart check on the daily not just when we go to the doctor but we need every day to have a heart check with our heavenly father with our maker so that we can walk on the path and that we can do what he is calling us to do tom what about you it's interesting right before there we've been talking about the word of god and of course this is wisdom kind of talking but wisdom is talking for god here and and wisdom says my son give attention to my words incline your ears to my saying do not let them depart from your sight keep them in the midst of your heart so this is what we're talking about is we can have all these competing voices and competing affections things that just want look we all have things that we just love and those some of them are really bad and some of them are just okay and even good but they can draw us away our heart away guys from the the things of god i mean the things that god wants us to set those affections on that's where it's we've got to guard our heart we've got to guard our heart of those things because when you if there's something inside of you that you set your affections on so much that it's it's taking Christ off that throne so i just have to ask you is that something you've done is that something i think it's something we've all done at various points and that's where the Holy Spirit comes with this gentle conviction not condemnation that's the voice of the enemy like we talked about but this gentle conviction that pulls you back to say god i want to set you as the center of my heart as the lord of my heart that my affections and my thoughts will be on you completely we're the only jesus that people are going to see in a lot of cases and you know one prayer that from pittsburgh prays that i just keep hearing this mother says she talked about pride and arrogance and it needs to be shut down we need to not give life to the things that the enemy is doing and she said to operate in humility and that is one of the biggest things i think even with the pittsburgh leadership school that no matter what platform god gives you there is a rock that is higher than i and our our job here on earth is to be looking to that rock and pointing other people to that rock and who is that rock jesus christ and it is what our network here lives to do to spread the good news of jesus so that people can have the opportunity to stand on that firm foundation and to point others to him said no man this is you were just speaking i just think about you know we had this major gathering where thousands and thousands of people came together we're praying for you know our city we're praying for our nation we're praying for our world but the one thing that as amanda was just speaking that god laid on my heart is that nothing will change if we don't change and it talks about repentance and i think a lot of times that's a word we don't like to really hear because sometimes it means we have to look inside we have to look within and deal with the yuck and the junk in our lives because all of that if we don't deal with it it will infect other people sin is very little spread it's a virus it's the worst virus that's out there and one thing that god has just been really speaking to me did you know that repentance you know the way that i you know it's like yes we're sinners and but it really means it's a positive change it's when you seek the heart of the father when you listen to the holy spirit when you're transformed by the renewing of your mind when you allow god to get deep into your heart and to deal with those things that you really don't want to talk about you really don't want to face but guess what church we got to we have to because guess what the world is waiting on us we have the solutions we have the answers to what is happening in our world but we first we have to change i know we do a lot of finger pointing look at the world what they're doing now look at us it is time for us to look at ourselves and know what god wants to change in us and the biggest thing i love what amanda you were saying is pride and humility we got to lay it all down humble ourselves and be like christ any final thoughts tom you know uh we didn't get a chance to talk about it with patrick but secrecy is really that where the flesh grabs on what sydney was just saying when we get real when we get open and when we have that that again in a protected environment but open and say i'm struggling with this i'm i'm i'm not winning the battle here when you do that you begin to have that freedom you begin to have that that just take deconstructs all the chains that the enemy has tried to to to put around you and to hold you down and when you do that you're going to find god in a new way you know what you're going to find his hope because hope happens here on tomorrow's hope today ever need life to just slow down and give you a moment humor writer anna lind thomas offers a comical take on the lessons she's learned in life and reminds us that god is always in control no matter the circumstances that's tomorrow on hope today cornerstone television wishes to thank all our faithful viewers whose consistent prayers and financial support have made this program possible


Apa yang kita akan lakukan sekarang adalah, jika sesiapa-siapa ada pertanyaan, boleh rasa bersyukur untuk melakukannya. Bersyukur untuk memperkenalkan diri sendiri. Beritahu kami, siapa anda, apakah anda dari mana, dan beritahu kami siapa-siapa yang menerima pertanyaan. Bagaimana untuk sesiapa-siapa yang diperkenalkan? Atau seperti sebuah perkara yang biasa. Sebelum kita mulai, kenapa tidak, saya akan menghubungi. Kita mulai dengan cara tidak serius. Bagaimana kita dapat tahu? Dari kamu. Apa pilihan kamu yang terkenal? Kenapa pilihan kamu yang terkenal? Kenapa dan bagaimana? Kamu tidak sepatutnya menguruskan diri sendiri. Sebenarnya, ia cukup mudah. Bagaimana dengan satu pilihan yang berlaku dan satu pilihan yang terkenal? Bersyukur, ia lebih mudah. Bersyukur, ia lebih mudah. Bersyukur, ia lebih mudah. Sebab itu semua orang yang terkenal. Bagaimana dengan satu pilihan yang berlaku? Yang terkenal adalah pilihan yang berlaku. Kenapa? Sebab saya rasa Greg dan Uber sangat berlaku. Saya sangat mengenai pilihan yang berlaku. Saya tidak menggunakan pilihan yang berlaku, saya menggunakan pilihan yang berlaku. Jadi saya rasa pilihan yang berlaku sangat bagus. Saya sangat membuat pilihan yang berlaku. Jika kamu ingin bercakap dengan saya. Bersyukur. Bersyukur. Bersyukur. Bersyukur. Bersyukur. Bersyukur. Bersyukur. Jadi itu pilihan yang berlaku. Pilihan yang berlaku. Bersyukur. Bersyukur. Bersyukur. Maksud anda bagus. I8. I8. Hapalapad I8. Hapalapad I8. 300k orang yang suka harga. Jadi sebabnya teman Instagram. Tapi mereka hanya menghubungkan permainan. Jadi itu sangat bagus. Jadi apa yang anda akan buat dengan harga? Bagaimana anda berdiscover? Itu yang bagus. Bagaimana kita boleh menjelaskan harga? media. BOTLIST.COE, jika anda ingin tahu BOTLIST.COE BOTLIST.COE, jadi itu dibuat oleh Venture B Kai yang benar-benar menguruskan segalanya di dunia Jadi ia bagus untuk kami juga Okey, baiklah Untuk teman-teman yang terkenal Sebenarnya, saya sangat suka Gov.SG Gov.SG SQ menguruskan yang mereka menguruskan untuk pemeriksaan sekarang Kenapa?  Jadi pertanyaan ini untuk seseorang yang mencari untuk membangunkan konsumersinya sendiri. Ia menyebabkan, saya tidak yakin bahawa ia menyebabkan sekarang. Dia ingin tahu, untuk pertanyaan ini menjadi sukses, kan? Bolehkah anda mempunyai mungkin tiga metrik sukses yang dia patut mencari dari hari ini? Okey, jadi tiga metrik sukses. Saya akan berkata, tentu-tentu... ...berkata-kata sebuah pertanyaan adalah sebuah metrik sukses. Jadi anda boleh sebenarnya membangunkan bot anda... ...semasa anda membangunkan user, semasa anda minta mereka berkata banyak perkara. Tapi anda mungkin juga membangunkan bot anda... ...yang tidak menggantikan banyak mesej dari user. Jika anda ingin membangunkan bot yang menganggap, jika user tanya satu pertanyaan kepada bot... ...dan bot beri jawatan unik, user beri jawatan 4 atau 5 pertanyaan yang unik... ...dan bot beri jawatan 4 atau 5 pertanyaan yang unik. Itu memberi anda idea bahawa user sebenarnya menganggap dalam hubungan. Untuk membangunkan bot yang menganggap, ia akan menjadi sebuah metrik sukses. Sebenarnya, sebuah perkara yang anda mungkin membangunkan adalah... ...jika bot anda membangunkan... ...di mana anda boleh membangun hanya dua atau tiga pertanyaan... ...tapi anda melihat bahawa user tanya 10 atau 20 pertanyaan. Ia juga bermaksud bahawa bot anda tidak membangun... ...sebab user membangunkan... ...sampai membangunkan bot yang sama. Itu tidak mungkin sebuah metrik sukses yang benar. Sebenarnya, saya akan kata jika user tanya lebih banyak pertanyaan... ...tidak menganggap metrik sukses. Apabila mereka menganggap bot, ia perlu menjadi cara yang berlainan. Sebenarnya, sebuah metrik sukses untuk bot... ...saya akan kata ratenya. Saya mencari ratenya sebagai... ...berapa kebaikan untuk user untuk bercakap dengan bot anda... ...selepas pertama kali mereka bercakap dengan bot anda. Jika anda menghubungi banyak platform analytics... ...atau platform bot analytics yang berlainan... ...setiap contoh adalah DashBot.io... ...setiap contoh adalah bot analytics... ...Bot Sanko menggunakan analytics Facebook. Mereka sebenarnya beri anda mesyuarat... ...berapa kebaikan untuk user bercakap dengan bot... ...selepas tiba-tiba. Anda perlu menjuruhkan... ...berapa kebaikan yang berlainan. Kemudian, ada satu lagi perjalanan. Jika bot anda membangun user... ...sepanjang hari... ...saya akan membangun metric ini... ...dan ia akan membuat anda rasa baik... ...tapi sebenarnya, bot ini hanya menggunakan pakaian. Jadi, anda harus melihat perhatian itu... ...untuk ratenya. Akhirnya... ...mungkin sebarang kebaikan... ...selepas bot itu juga adalah metric berjaya. Kerana bot ini adalah platform baru... ...jika anda melihat... ...berapa user berkongsi dengan bot... ...saya menunjukkan... ...mereka berminat... ...dan mereka tidak akan beritahu teman tentang bot. Mereka menguatkan teman atau teman... ...tapi... ...bila berkongsi dengan bot anda... ...mereka mengunakan pakaian dari bot anda. Pakaian berkata, ya, kami menggelakkan dengan anda. Bots adalah pakaian yang baik... ...dan kami harus mengumpul pakaian. Mungkin saya akan menonjolkan satu lagi... ...part 2. Anda melihat pakaian... ...bukan mengikuti user terlalu banyak. Tapi di masa yang sama, jika anda tidak melihat mereka... ...pengalaman anda, ia akan menyerahkan mereka. So, how do you balance between not over spamming, number one, and number two, making sure that whoever is using a bot is still engaged. So, I think what we normally call as spam is a message that's very generic. So, we get a lot of spam emails, but when you read the spam emails, the most personal that these emails can get is hey, first name, right? So, the thing is when you read a message from a bot like hey, first name, and a long paragraph, you know it's spam. You know it's something that they probably send it to everyone out there.   So, that would actually make the user feel more like comforted with a bot. They won't feel like it's spam anymore. So, that's one way you can actually spam your user and it's safe. Say spamming? Why? Okay, thanks Abhi. Anyone has a question? Alright. Okay, I will go to both of you. Okay, I'll pass it to Mike. Actually, so, when people use normal websites or apps, Actually, this question is directed at everyone actually. So, when people use normal websites or apps, if there's a particular bug on a screen, we would get like a crash log or a crash report where we get to know where the problem is. But what sort of strategies do you guys use for detecting bugs in our bot conversations that you guys are having? What if a person goes in an endless loop where the same question keeps coming up again and again? Or if a person drops off a conversation because they didn't quite get what they expected? So, how do you guys go about detecting this and taking action on it? Your name? Yes, my name is Suresh. I'm an engineer here at 99.co, the property portal. Do you all need a bot? Do you all need a chat bot? Not at this point. There's a Spencer. Saya akan cuba. Okey. Untuk kita, kita mulakan dengan pilihan besar. Pilihan ux dengan perkara yang sangat penting. Dalam pilihan website, kita juga mempunyai pilihan yang tidak berlain. Kemudian kita mempunyai pilihan pilihan yang tidak berlain. Jadi, apa yang berlain dengan perkara yang tidak berlain? Pilihan chat bot kita juga cuba menggunakan pilihan yang masih baru untuk semua orang. Abi beritahu bahawa ada beberapa periode berlainan. Jadi kita perlu mengalami periode berlainan dengan baik. Untuk memastikan apabila ia berlainan, bagaimana kita boleh beritahu mereka. Jadi ia berlainan untuk menarik semua periode. Sebenarnya, metodologi adalah sedap untuk membangun web-side periode. Biasanya periode berlainan yang mencari masalah. Jadi ia berlainan untuk menerima bagaimana yang berlainan, meledik ux, lalu cuba periode periode periode yang berlainan. Anda menerima bagaimana jika itu berlainan, anda ada periode berlainan kembali ke periode periode. Tapi jika ia berlainan, anda perlu meminta periode periode yang berlainan. Semua orang yang membangun periode berlainan lebih lama. Tetapi saya rasa itu adalah tentang membangun periode pertama. Sebelum anda membangun periode periode periode, ux, lalu cuba periode periode periode yang berlainan. Untuk kita, saya tidak bersyukur dengan periode periode periode periode yang berlainan. Sebenarnya, banyak kerja kita telah dibuat. Tapi mungkin saya boleh bercakap lebih banyak tentang perkara yang berlainan. ağ scientifically, semacam itu apabila anda steak strip sole, mereng injected, pun juga menyebabkan bahawa yangkapK нашiran, awak perlu mengembang-mem computed di sekian bagi jad1 ticks. Salah satu perkara yang diperlukan contra eats thé comma sebuah pengguna behalf, ada kemah Babakур. Enggak säk��,eticFrankPengил memberikanErut. bagaimanapun mereka berhenti memperkenalkan bot. Kami perkenalkan bahawa banyak pengguna ini, saya boleh kata, 50%-60% pengguna memperkenalkan bot setelah setiap poin. Dan ia menjadi kelihatan ke kamu, kemudian anda mungkin mahu melihat apa itu? Mungkin anda boleh memperkenalkan mereka. Mungkin ia mungkin begitu. Atau selepas ia terlalu diperkenalkan, kemudian anda mungkin mahu memikirkan mungkin memperkenalkan sesuatu, kemudian kemudian kemudian perkenalkan, kemudian sesuatu seperti itu. Atau anda akan membuat konten lebih tinggi dan sebagainya. Jadi, saya rasa yang terakhir adalah perkara yang sangat menarik. Seorang kawan kami yang memperkenalkan bot setelah setiap poin, mereka sebenarnya memperkenalkan bot setelah setiap poin sebagainya. Dan perkara yang anda boleh lakukan adalah perkenalkan bot dan sebagainya. Saya rasa anda boleh memperkenalkan beberapa skrips dan sebagainya untuk memperkenalkan beberapa perkara ini. Jadi, perkara yang lebih otomatis, perkara yang lebih otomatis, ia akan sangat menarik. Kemudian, saya rasa, sebelum itu, saya mungkin menggunakan perkara sekarang, dan perkara lain yang saya telah lakukan. Tapi tentu saja, penggunaan penggunaan penggunaan menggunakan, menggunakan penggunaan yang sangat agresif untuk melakukan secara indah. Maksud saya, membuat penggunaan lebih banyak untuk mencoba dan kira-kira, bahawa kadang-kadang, memperkenalkan penggunaan awal, saya rasa itu akan sangat membantu untuk anda mencoba mencoba mereka. Tapi, pada hari ini, apabila seseorang bercakap dengan seseorang, jika anda berada di dalam komposisi, dalam peribadi dan anda mendengar mereka, anda tidak tahu dari siapa yang salah. Dan kadang-kadang, bagaimanapun anda boleh mencoba skrips dan segala-galanya, memperkenalkan semua ini. Tapi perkara terbaik, kadang-kadang, ia hanya mencari berbicara. Ya, dan itu sesuatu yang, pada hari awal, apabila anda memperkenalkan skrips dan segala-galanya, ia sangat penting. Jadi, jika anda melihat bahawa bahagian bahagian bahagian itu, ialah, maaf, saya tidak faham. Jadi, sepanjang bahagian bahagian itu, apabila ia tidak faham, bahagian bahagian anda menulis beberapa cara berlaku dengan berlaku menghubungi meskipun di tepuk. Anda akan selalu memiliki sesuatu yang adalah kelembapan, dengan sebarang-barang kelembapan. Kemudian, jika anda memotong pengetahuan oleh teman-teman, anda akan melihat bahawa banyak kelembapan untuk kelembapan, lebih daripada kelembapan yang penting. Anda tahu bahawa sesuatu yang salah. Anda tahu bahawa ia adalah tentang, atau bahawa seorang berlaku memperkenalkan ia tidak memperkenalkan, dan ia hanya memperkenalkan kelembapan. So what I try my best to do is reduce the fallback rate. Like make sure the button, I mean minimize the rate at which the bot says sorry I don't understand. So the next person is Chris Wright, you got a question? I don't remember all the names in front so I apologize. I came in pretty late and I wasn't really paying attention to repeat the names again. But it's directed to all three of you. I work in the VR virtual space. I just invested in a virtual business. So it's not really quite related what you guys do. But my concern is security related. One is security and reliability concerns that keep you guys up at night. And I want three from each of you. Because one is a cop out, two is an excuse. I want three. You guys want me to start, right? Security concern. First concern I'm afraid of is that any of one of us get hit by a bus. Or our laptops are hijacked. Or we access an internet that is stooped on by someone. I mean, these are all practical things, right? Because at the end of the day when we work, if you are a small team and you work with enterprises, you are the biggest security miss to the enterprise when you work with them. And which is why they ask you this question, how many people do you have? And if you have less than, for example, 10 people they will look at you and you're like, are you sure you can support our needs? And they use this qualification question to essentially ask you to go with it. It's easy for a company to do that, which is why I think the easier part is, the easier part, not the easy part, it's very hard. But the easier part is let's not do B2B let's do consumer focused stuff. I think for us, we like hammering our heads against these kinds of problems, so we kind of overcome that. So that's what keeps me on the internet, actually. But if customers come to me, if every customer today comes to me and tell me, you guys are the security risk, we're not going to work with you, then I need to solve that. The second thing is actually, I think maybe on the infrastructure side, if we work with companies that are very prominent, the problem is that that itself invites security risk. Because people all over the world are being paid, handsome as money to crack open these enterprises and essentially try to school over with their business. And if they do that, it's a batch of honour. So we are also a little bit careful about announcing who we work with sometimes because I think that's something that might be a bit sensitive and we don't want to become a target of ourselves. So recently, for example, one of our previous products, we actually became a target of a guy who just started doing lots of, he wrote a couple of scripts to attack us for no reason and essentially that overloaded our email servers quite a bit. So we have to essentially do a lot of countermeasures and stuff. So these kind of things do happen and we are wary of that. I think the third thing is that for POS, right now Facebook and all these platforms do a pretty good job already. So for example, people cannot really abuse the bot too much. If someone tried to, for example, bomb the bot maybe like 10 million conversations every second, Facebook will greatly limit the user and immediately do that for us. So thanks to Facebook, that's good. But when we launch like for example, companies websites for application and stuff, then we need to make sure that we handle some of these things ourselves or we'll give the party to do that. So that's something that keeps my team up at night when we team up with this. So Spencer has answered like security risks on B2B point of view where it builds bots for other people but I don't have any of those answers because I'm not do bot spot companies. So for security with risks for building your own bot or at least other developers need to look at. So you could repeat that? Or at least what do other developers need to look at and think about anything else. If that's not the kind of experience that I've got. So in my presentation, I had shown like the three main parts of what I think it takes to build a bot. The first part is the messenger platform. The first part is the messaging platform. That's the part that's the only interface to the user. And the other two are the web server and machine learning platform but that happens in the background. That's in the back end and it's not interface to the user. The biggest security risk is any part of your app or any part of your bot that is interface with a user because that's a point of entry for the user. Luckily if you use a very popular messaging platform like Facebook, Facebook shields you. They shield you from any kind of attacks that users may try to do in your bot. Previous, I mean previously if you didn't have Facebook and you just accepted plain text from users, they could always do some kind of SQL injections or these kinds of things that will trigger this malicious stress to your bot but Facebook shields you. I'm pretty confident that even Slack as a platform will also shield you in that way and so do all the other messaging platforms. You just want to ensure that the points of entry to your bot are just limited and only Facebook knows that single point of entry. Okay, maybe I can share a bit about ethical hacking since that's what I've been doing for quite some time before we do the business. So in the website world I think it works similar as well. So sometimes our website gets hit by some random hacker in Morocco or Pakistan and our web pages just change. So it's a real problem that happens too. I think it will happen to bot as well. So last time when we did it for those of us in the IRC generation if you remember MRIC there was this group called ethical hackers and then the idol there was like Sean Parker the founder of Napster so he dropped in once in a while to answer a message but you know this game called Neopets Neopets, you're so old. It sucks out a lot of our time but we wrote a lot of script to get more Neopoints but how we do that is we go to other people's account and get their Neopoints because we can't hack their algorithm to increase our own Neopoints on a passive basis so we're gonna get it. So we found it more fun than playing the game Neopets itself. So if Abbie is my friend I'll just take all his Neopoints and then we'll get more fun doing that and technically at that period of time web security was really low it's easy to write scripts to do that so it came upon our time whereby people start to people start to hire people to prevent people like us so what happens is we have to write a script to prevent people to prevent us so it stacks up and that's how technology gets better so the guy that's trying to prevent me from he has to write a script that directs me away to another IP so I see like a fake Neopets site even if I put Neopets.com so he directed me away and then the real user goes to this account so they track by like ID tracking so it comes to upon whereby there's 3-4 layers of ethical hacking such that I can't be bothered anymore because it's too deep to crack after that but I believe there's still people doing it so that's one way that we can counter it so all the ethical hackers they tend to write scripts that are like 3-4 layers deep meaning if you can hack what you're gonna do so it's like when you plan the it's a UX for hackers so you plan if this word is gonna hack what happens next but if it didn't break through okay good so you go back to your normal state then next one if it breaks through the hacking thing what happens after that so if I break through to its new points are you gonna stop me from taking the new points or are you gonna boot me out of the system such that I log out but if you still can crack that then it goes to the next layer so ethical hackers need at least 3 layers so on a context business in business not on giving anymore so we work with GIC so this part we can share no worries so how we counter this thing is we try to do it in such a way that even if they manage to hack our board they can't extract any important data so we always we advise people to come to us or like companies that want to buy services try to try to segregate as many parts as possible so some coders they write a really fast code like one file has everything like the whole file.js or the whole file.py so the entire the entire system runs on one screen is it so when they can extract anything from their screen it becomes a problem so I can change like SG Bus Uncle SG Bus Aunty and I can give you the wrong location to make you pissed off and I can do this but I think probably RB runs it in different layers so he separates the thing out there such that even if the first layer gets hacked there's still a second layer there's a third layer so that's what the way we do it and then we do backup servers for example like if information number one gets hacked but information number one is really important and it will bounce to the second database of information one so exactly the same thing it's like it's copied but such that if it reads a malicious threat it goes to the next one straight away and it reads another malicious threat it goes to the next one so you have to do a lot of stacking and the the functional thing is big companies pay for that so they are willing to pay money to counter this thing and same thing it's also three layers so any ethical hacker will also tell you anything three layers because the third layer yeah because we don't make any money we just hack for fun previously okay thank you any other questions guys? yes my name is Max I'm the CTO of Q Reply so I just want to add two more points to the previous discussion about security of bots I think there are two main points first is the API that you use to pass them the user's message so for us we couldn't use anything like with AI or API.to act because we just cannot send the user information to external parties because usually if you read clearly the WEAI contracts and their terms and conditions they actually say they have ownership of your any messages sent to them so they can really if they want to so that that alone just doesn't fly with any enterprise just doesn't work so that's why we have to develop our in-house NLP processing to understand all the messages and intents and entity that the third party are supposed to do and this allows us to put it into the private deploy private cloud so in case that the company just super sensitive with all this we can actually put it into their computers and their servers the second point is about Facebook Messenger platform so most of the libraries that you see on Github today doesn't actually protect you from the denial of service so a hacker can once they figure out that your server response there are ways to figure out once they figure it out they can spoof as a user and send like minutes of messages directly to your back-end server for example your Heroku server or Amazon server but at that point you can't just you have to do some verification to check that this actually came from Facebook otherwise you'd be wasting your API calls to or your other services and then your your users couldn't get any message through so the way to do it is there's a signature that Facebook sends called xhub xhub signature and it's a shaman algorithm so your Node.js code usually you have to implement it yourself or you have to be very sure to check which open source library you actually use and whether they implemented that authentication if you don't anyone can just print out your bot instead so if you want to know which how to exactly implement that you can kind of ask me later I can show you the code Thanks Max for anyone else any questions or a wrap Thanks My name is Kiha I'm working at the insurance as a data analytics manager so this year it's going to be digitalization of insurance companies like insurance company is a traditional quite traditional but they know there's time to change so we got thinking bringing the chatbots in two ways one is customer service the other is finding our prospects many base movie Korea is Kakakoto I think it's quite popular platform equivalent of WhatsApp and Singapore the 40 customer service I think if we bring the chatbot there must be a lot so different there is freedom of questions like how to claim what's the claim for sales or what's how I have a new phone number I like to change the phone number there must be a lot of freedom of questions I think it might be quite difficult to chat about the play because it's a lot so I don't understand but acquisitions I think it's the customer asking pretty much there's expected you know I like to know the premium amount my age is blah blah and what's the best product I think it's more expected closed questions for the customer service and cost saving it's great you don't understand how many calls in a day and dealing with those simple inquiries and however I'm worried about the you know lots of loves regarding many different types of questions and which aspect do you think the first thing we should consider to show tablets or a team for insurance prospecting acquiring prospect customers or dealing with customer service complaints and then asking as inquiries Do you have a FAQ page? I believe so but I believe so Okay Your company has developers, right? Has developers? Actually I went to Korea to review some vendors we don't have I mean when you said anyone who can do no JS just JS or even PHP because the solution there must be yeah, there must be IT If there's an FAQ page is I mean we are at Microsoft so I've got to promote you on Microsoft right but the Q&A maker.ai is really good Q&A maker.ai so how it works is it scripts the page the FAQ thing then it just you can train the bot inside the system as well so it scripts the page for example how much is your your policy or like how to make claims so you have a certain like standard protocol you can copy the whole thing to the bot just like that then you can start training bot such that you can respond to different questions that mean the same thing like how much is my premium or how much how much am I expected to pay so you can start training and putting as many questions as you want so what you're saying is customer service it can work for customer service the lowest barrier of entry for us in sales I mean like where we sell to the companies usually people look for FAQ bots because they really got a certain infrastructure in place like FAQ questions that they want to just plug and play to reduce the time the thing is the insurance in a conservative people are really conservative you know they really worried about those fall out I don't know if there's a lot then by detrimental to the company reputation it's going to be also detrimental to my reputation as well if I bring in that sort of you can trust Spencer Norris okay sudden answer right on behalf of Spencer okay and another thing we can do right okay IBM so there's something good you can try to retrieve and rank retrieve and rank so what we did is you know carousel rank so carousel they have FAQ page but it's quite complicated it's all the languages all the because they are big company already so people start to ask a lot of things so retrieve and rank can work such that it will read the whole FAQ then it ranks for example I ask like how to sell stuff on carousel so it give you the most important most relevant question it reads on the database then it issues back the correct thing so that actually increases or decreases the chance of screwing up in that sense so if you're worried about the bot now responding to give you the weird answers then they actually can help so but I think it's about exploring across the board because every big company now they are the way they view API so fast the updates come so very fast so if you have a developer and your end is even better to try to explore yeah because I think the retrieve and rank just updated like yesterday when I just checked it as well Tuan Tuan Tuan Tuan so maybe I can start by saying that we looked into Korean language a little bit we have a couple of friends in Korea we focus on NLP API we work to use one of their pretty good companies co-no the founder the founder of ours so I understand that in Korean language the challenge what you talked about for insurance company implementation for chatbots even I think we won't bendo for you guys it's because we really have zero experience with Korean Korean language it's very different from English and it's arguably actually it's easier or more difficult English so we actually look into it so it's actually quite difficult for us to just say that we want to pop over the language so that's also the problem so for English if we train it to a sufficient level it's actually possible to exhaust most of the possibilities you know using methods and using training of like customer ticket and so on so I think what you talked about support and you know proactive engagement personally I think I like to focus on proactive engagement but the problem you're doing that is that when you do proactive engagement on bots everyone is going to expect support as well so for example if you launch an experience like oh you know it's a sales bot or something everyone's going to ask what's the weather or all this kind of weird things and of course they're not supposed to and the thing is that if you're not ready to do that then you're definitely going to get all these questions so even if you do proactive engagement you're still going to get all these reactive questions that you need to handle so that's why that's also the risk of launching so you rather not launch than to launch something that has that so that's why when we go have enterprises we really make sure that we understand who are the stakeholders that you're working with as well is this the CIO level thing is it the CMO level thing or is it like for example the internal team doing this and you are putting your company at risk then the conversation will not happen it's not going to happen so that's why from my perspective for enterprise sales it's my job to figure out with you how level of buy-win do we have how can we actually make this happen is even technologically feasible for what you're looking for and then what are the steps that we can use our platform to support you on that and then are you going to do RFP are you going to invite Watson are you going to invite Microsoft and all these guys or are you going to take one smaller than 1,000 to the play as well and are you thinking about in the 3 months 6 months or more sort of a pilot perspective and we don't do free pilot so companies some companies do free pilot some companies don't we don't do free pilot so because of that there's going to be some consideration down the road and having to chat offline if you want to have a meeting about this can I one more questions we are thinking in Q1 Q2 person in the chat board from risky business we're thinking in our hireings of chatting Asia real human person to deal with customer complaints to be going to accumulate some text histories to build better chat boards do you think it's the right way or I don't have to hiring the human person to chat to get some more knowledge in a conversation interaction between customers and agents so I can give you an answer based on user experience point of view so if you want to build a bot that does customer service of course in the start you have to give you have to train the bot with a list of questions and a list of all the answers and the thing is over here you have a fixed set of answers but questions but there are many different ways of asking the same questions so you have to train your bot in the start for at least a few different ways of asking the same question and then when you deploy it live I wouldn't say you actually need to hire someone to just monitor this instead I would say it would be best if you kept your customer your old customer service people like don't fire them yet but let them just monitor how the bots I mean the users are speaking to the bots and they might actually give you a lot more insight into the different things that users might mean when a bot answers them so the thing is customer service agent is a person and person and your user is also another person and when two people speak there's a lot of information that goes from person one to person two and a lot of miscommunication might happen but for a bot there's always fixed answers and if a bot gives your user a fixed answer and the user says oh now I understand the customer service agent was monitoring your bot actually would know that okay so that's what the person meant so definitely keep your customer service agent first like let them monitor it and then later you can optimize the flow okay thank you okay guys we running short of time I know there's a lot of body questions for everybody what we will do now is that please join me to say thank you to our panelists get that round of applause


Okay, now recording is working. Excellent. Hello, everybody. Looks like a good crew.  It is as I left it. People wouldn't mind filling out the attending section which I'm about to add. Great. Post the notes. I feel like I mostly see familiar faces on the call, but a couple people look a little new to me or sorry if I've forgotten you.  Who's all that? Everybody from Facebook want to introduce yourselves real quick? Hello, we're part of the tracing team here. Welcome, everybody. Arabic carrier. This is the big chunk of our tracing team here. I'm glad to have you all on the call. Also, hello to BHS from LightStep. I see he's on the phone. We've got Joe Farrow here from Uber slash Jaeger. Austin Parker from LightStep. Erica Arnold. Good to see you, Erica. Erica's from New Relic. Tyler Benson, Java agent specialist over at Datadog. Just Chris with no last name. Not sure which Chris that is. We've got Matt Weir also from New Relic. Ananya Garwal. I'm not sure who that is. Would you like to introduce yourself? Ananya, sorry if I mispronounce your name. Hey, it's Ananya. Sorry about that. Yeah, that's no problem. I'm working in a startup in India. We work on ad tech. Yeah, recently started contributing to Jaeger. Okay, great. Nice to meet you. Thank you. Who's Chris? I'm curious. I'm just going to assume Chris is China. Hi, China. Okay. So on that note, I threw a couple items onto the agenda today. One was an update around open census. There's been a sort of exploratory working group looking at seeing what emerging the APIs for these two projects would look like. So I'd like to give just a quick update on that. As well as room for questions because I'm sure there are some. And then just a quick update and more of a shield for special agent. So unless we have a big open census talk, it will probably be a short meeting. Feel free to add things to the calendar if you'd like to discuss something else. And on that note, yeah, the big ticket item, I think for this meeting is just to give people kind of an update on where things have been going with open census. So a while back, maybe December, a sort of exploratory technical working group started getting together because these projects are so similar, their APIs are very similar. But on one hand you've got a project that's more like an implementation and that doesn't have a really abstracted API. And then on the other side, you've got an abstracted API, but no reference implementation. And so for a while we've been like, man, if we could just bridge these APIs and share one, then we could have a bigger project where it was just as abstracted so people can still continue to plug their own agents into the instrumentation without necessarily having a whole bunch of hardware in the middle that they may or may not want. By hardware I mean software, sorry. And at the same time we could have a really, really awesome reference implementation that people were willing to invest money into and kind of hold down. So that seemed like a big win if we could bring these two projects together. Also everyone has been bothering us since the beginning of these two projects and we've been trying to reach them. So we finally started exploring what that would look like. And the responses were very positive. There is a branch of code. I can post this. If you want to look at our spike. So it's a branch Bogdan drew to if you don't know Bogdan Bogdans, it's a lead maintainer for open census. So we've been working a branch. And I will also put in just some notes. Our doc too many tabs. I'm linking here a doc that represents the API discussion up to this point. Just basically we looked at the places where these APIs diverged from each other and tried to see if we could come up with a bridge. Some solution that would make both sides happy. None of this is final. We just have gotten to the point where Bogdan feels really comfortable. From the open tracing side, Carlos Alberto has been holding it down a lot because we've mostly been focusing on Java. And so there will be probably something more like a real API that people could bind to and play with. That will be coming soon for review. And there's also now some movement from the founders. Ben Siegelman on one side. I believe Preetam who's in charge of the open census project on the Google side. Looking to found a kind of like governance bootstrapping group to figure out what a governance model would look like for the merge projects. Last but not least, we're also really interested in a new name. If we are going to merge these projects, the scope will be increased beyond what's in open tracing to include metrics.  We don't want to lose the name, open census didn't want to lose their name. So we decided everyone would lose a name and we'll come up with a new name for the merge project if we do it. Of course, no one has this new merge name.  So that'll probably be the hardest part of this whole process if we do it. And on that note, I would like to open up the floor for questions because I'm sure there are many. And also please tell me what we should call this project. Thank you. I see Ben joined. Is there any more updates that Ben can add or on the governance side? Immuted. You muted. Ben, you muted. Is that better? Yeah. Ted said most of it already. I would maybe it's not like this is like literally done. I mean, I think there's the, I would maybe add to everything Ted said that there's overall a feeling like both these projects really exist in order to accelerate the adoption of tracing metrics, observability technologies and so on and so forth. And that having two projects out there, even if both of them were great, having two projects inside of one actually decelerates the adoption or at least a suboptimal. So that's really like the biggest problem. I think it's true. It'd be great to have reference implementation and an API and all that, but really like fundamentally the biggest problem is that having both these projects is creating confusion. And tax in terms of adoption and like that's really like the biggest problem we're trying to solve. I think the, the governance discussion I think is like pretty good in that it's the alignment in terms of what we're trying to achieve is really clear and obvious, but it's not actually done. And I think like this in my mind, the presentation of this update should be more like everyone wants this to happen versus this is definitely going to happen. This will definitely happen once it's actually happening, but it's not quite there yet. And I think we fall like it'd be good to give people heads up that the discussion is happening. So we don't want to feel like some kind of closed door thing, but it's not actually done yet. And until this, I don't want to say, okay, great, like let's publish a campaign, et cetera. Although I think everyone recognizes that continuing in the current parallel track is pretty wasteful and confusing for end users. So that that's like the really concerning part of it. I would say like the next month or something like that, we should probably be able to say that this is actually happening, but I don't want to, you know, call it before it's done or something. Yeah, I think that the moment that that prompted bringing it up for me is that we did have an exploratory committee just to be like, is it worth it to get everyone's hopes up and bring, bring everyone in and that group this past week hit a point where we felt like we had managed to address everything that's different between the two projects. And it seemed like there was a pretty obvious way to like solve those differences in a way where you could, we could put out a new API and just simply say this is like the next version of the API for each project and wouldn't feel like, like a huge record scratch or something that would be very difficult, you know, to continue to maintain the kind of like backwards compatibility and bridging that we always like to do and open tracing from version to version. And since we, again, we don't have a new API, but we have enough of a spike that that feels good. It feels like the right time to be starting to ring the bell about this project. But seriously, we need suggestions for names. Oh my God, definitely. So is this going to encompass the stats, capabilities inherent in census as well? Yeah. Yeah. Sort of, I would say that, I mean, this is, I mean, anything about like the technical details, I think does like a little bit more discussion, but I have been arguing for whatever this merge thing is to try and be more decoupled about things than census has been. I think the open tracing scope is probably a little bit too narrow in retrospect and that people don't want to have like many different nouns they have to deal with. They want to have like one now. But like having all of the different pieces coupled together any more than is necessary. Like weakens the whole, I think if for something like this, that could get kind of sprawling where it's like, well, now let's add stat traces. Now it's that logging. It just, it could get really big very quickly. So I think like it should have, I would argue if, I mean, I'm not saying it will, but I will argue that. Yes, it'd be great to have stats capabilities and yes, they should be as decoupled from anything else as possible in that, in that like converged project. If that makes sense to people. Thank you. Yeah, I can definitely say that one of the things that we've been kind of talking a lot about from the open tracing side is making sure that there is a clean separation. Like of abstractions and interfaces from implementation. So we focused on the tracing piece for now, but I don't see a reason that we couldn't also do the same for the metrics piece. So here's a bad name, but it's just something to throw out there, which is open observability or something along those lines. Obviously use. Well, it's, it's super ultra broad, but it's a, you know, it's a name to suggest you. Yeah, it's very long to type. Yeah. I do like that the, the initials are OO or it could be OOBS. OBS also an overloaded acronym, or you could just go O and then however many letters this and another O. Oh, true. That's that's your traditional way to handle that. Right. We could do the startup play and just do open tracing, but remove all the vowels. Or we could just move all the consonants. I like that idea, Joe. Yes. Projects is called shiny, spooky, shiny from everyone. Yeah. I tried to figure out because it's CNCF, I looked up the Greek word for telescope and discovered that it was telescope. What about the Latin word? That telescope thing is still like the faith. What's the sextant? How about sextant? I'm sure that's already a project. It's probably already a project.  I would propose that we will not determine the answer to this on this call. People should send names to Ted or me or whatever. I don't know, or someone, but this is not the right way to do this. We need to have a contest or something. Anyways. Yeah. Do people have, you know, If you have concerns you feel are more private, you know, absolutely reach out to me, reach out to Ben, we're happy to address it and get you up to speed on what's going on. And as far as governance and other things, that's still a big question mark, though I know Ben's been talking to at least some people on that trend. So I'm just looking at the outline on the OTOC merge topics and actually I haven't read it yet, I guess. I was going to ask about span references but I guess I'll read it first. Yeah and it's fine talking about this stuff in Gitter as well. I would encourage people to read this and just ask questions in Gitter basically. It's probably the easiest way to get answers. Cool. I would say the biggest change we might want to make as part of this from the open tracing side is this general feeling that, you know, especially just separate in open tracing, perhaps for convenience, the tracing API and the context propagation API are the same. So, you know, the spans are the context and they're propagating the context and in open tracing there is a lower, sorry, an open census, there's a lower level kind of context propagation mechanism and then tracing and metrics and these other things are all writing on top of that. It's kind of a feeling like that's a better model. That's just a cleaner separation. So I would say from the open tracing side, trying to move over to that model in this next version of the API is probably the biggest change we would see from our end. All right. I'll leave a couple minutes for questions. One thing that would be very interesting to me to see in evolution in the API is a bridging span model with more of an event-based model that our Facebook has because I don't know how Michael feels about this whole open census and open tracing in the first place. I doubt that they are going to be like, I mean, organizationally it's very hard to adopt when you already have an instrumentation like that but even from the modeling perspective there is currently like significant mismatches between what Facebook is doing and open tracing. I mean, I'd definitely be more than willing to help with those discussions and sort of look into them. I think one observation is that we actually do have sort of partial open tracing bindings for our stuff internally that some folks who want to open source their things are using. The span model is sort of more constrained but so we just have to be a little bit opinionated about how we sort of do that mapping from our things into spans but it's doable. But anyway, yeah, I'd be super interested in being a part of those conversations and sort of seeing if there's anything that makes sense there. I think the real thing is that the data model we have with Canopy is inherently more flexible but also inherently more complicated and people are super familiar with spans and things like that and the language and terminology around it. So I sort of get that from an external point of view. It's like, do you really want to really want to try and go with another data model when there's sort of one that's been around for a couple decades that works for most people. But anyway, yeah, if people are interested in that, yeah, let's figure out something. We can talk through it. Yeah, I definitely be interested for feedback. I would be nervous. I, you know, this opportunity to merge these projects and there's an opportunity to fix things while we're at it. But I also want to be wary that, you know, we don't, if we stray too, too far away from what either, like the other thing this project has to do is make sure we've got a bridge so we don't, we don't pull a, you know, Python 3000 or a Perl 6 in the process of doing this. But I think the number one thing we forward is to make sure, yeah, everyone who is binding agents or complicated things or people like Chris Urway or y'all at Facebook who have some evented model that's just like totally different from spans but would still like to, you know, play making sure there hasn't been something that makes that worse or if there's some easy way to make it better, this will be a good opportunity to get that kind of feedback. Yeah, I can jump in the getter and then we can sort of, you know, start talking through it there. But yeah, I mean, to the extent that we can provide sort of like useful feedback here, you know, I think we definitely be interested in doing it, you know, but also sort of definitely understand the, if you really think about the events are interesting, but what's really interesting is just very different sort of data models, right? A tree of spans versus a data model that's composed of x and y blocks. At the end of the day, you know, both systems still sending events, right? It's what's in them, right? And how they get put back together into a data model that's interesting and the language are on that data. Yeah, that's a lot of words. I always love updates from Facebook and Canopy. I think that you guys are doing super great and can feed into this project as far as guidance in the future, especially if there are certain kinds, not just fancy graphs, but data analysis, you can do this very tricky to do with this model. Yeah. Yeah, situations that are hard to grapple with this that are easier in Canopy. We want to understand what those are so we can improve. For what it's worth, I'd say we're also about to kick off an effort. This has to get more generalized context prop as well. Very similar observation that that should be at a lower layer, right? Other things other than tracing can ride on top of, right?  Log correlation. So I think that's sort of another place for people with conversations, right? And sort of compare design notes. You've come up with an amazing, efficient security model for baggage. Please let us know. Yeah. Yeah, baggage is fun. Great. Cool. Well, I had one other project I wanted to talk about on this meeting. So why don't we just segue into that since it's 30 minutes and then we can talk about whatever. I just wanted to give a shout out to the Java special agent project that's been kind of humming along in the background, but it's kind of reached a good stage for people to start playing around with it. So I kind of wanted to remind people of its existence and just sort of pitch it again. Just to quickly explain the idea behind special agent is it's like an agent, but really it just has one job, which is to install manual instrumentation. So rather than having the agent in sight of it have all the instrumentation bundled up and a lot of tricky ways of inserting everything, it has a more generalized model where you have a program that at boot has a jar of jars that contain all possible instrumentations. Each instrumentation has a way of basically identifying whether it could bind to something and rules for how it might get injected. And so the agent's job is just to go down that list and try to install everything. So it's sort of like, when I say it's an open source agent, I don't just mean like the code is open source, but we're hoping that it's a more extensible agent. In particular, we don't want a world where open tracing as a project is providing some kind of like agent thing for installing instrumentation. But then the instrumentation you get is somehow different than the instrumentation you would get if you manually install the plugin. So that's one, I think the reason why we're doing the extra effort to keep things decoupled is, you know, if we have a plugin for OK HTTP, just because you're instrumenting HTTP with something like an agent that installs that for you versus I installed the OK HTTP instrumentation myself from Open Tracing Contrib. Ideally, that's like the same piece of instrumentation. And if you update that manual instrumentation in Contrib, then special agent would just consume the latest version of that. So it's a way of having an agent, but still having all of the instrumentation being developed and managed by the community and by the ecosystem, rather having to centralize it all into one group that's trying to manage all of the instrumentation because it's baked into the agent. That was like the big nut we wanted to crack. And we feel like we've got something that probably works pretty well. And the final piece was the final two pieces we're working on right now are getting it to install tracers and allowing you to configure your instrumentation and your tracers. And so for, I imagine there's a number of people who are in groups that are involved with Open Tracing who already have their own agent because they work for some observability company that has an APM thing. And I imagine those people are a little less interested in the Open Tracing agent, but I would still encourage them to take a look at it, think about how they might make use of it for groups that don't have an agent and would just like their tracing client to be bundled in this thing so that if someone is running using this agent to install instrumentation for them, they can also use it to install their tracing client. I'm not sure about this agent installing other agents or how all of that would work. That sounds crazy, but that's also potentially possible if people are interested in that. So on that note, if people have questions about Special Agent, like what the point is, or where it's going, this might be a good opportunity to get some feedback on that project before it gets too far out the door. Has there been anyone using it yet in an environment like staging or production? Not quite. We're just now getting up into a place where we feel like someone could use it. What it's been able to do so far is take some amount of Java instrumentation, and if you install it, that will install it, and that seems fine. But to really get feedback, we feel like it needs to also install the tracing clients and be a little configurable before we could really get that kind of feedback of like, if you just throw this agent at your jar, do you now get traces coming out of it? So that we're just kind of launching into that. So I think in this next month, we're going to be hoping to start trying to run with it, explain to us how they're deploying things, you know, how they're, how as like from a deployment standpoint and an operational standpoint, they would want to be combining something like this agent with, with the software that they're running. Yeah. Tyler, I imagine you know way more about the ups and downs of people installing and operating agents than I do. So I would certainly love to pick your brain about this at some point. Sure. This is probably not the right place for it though. Yeah. Yeah, I'll hit you up on Gitter. I would be interested in like some opinions from vendors as to what is different about their engines versus this one. And because obviously data dog and elastic went after their own ones. And so like, is there anything that we're missing in it? Or why can't we just converge on this thing? Yeah. I guess from my perspective, I think that there's going to be some challenges around the different styles of instrumentation. So early on, I guess, when I first started looking at doing the data dog one, I kind of started around this model of of using a lot of the open tracing instrumentation and just using the agent to automatically apply it. But I guess it's a it's a different style that there's some problems that an agent runs into in terms of like having to inject things dynamically rather than being compiled with the customer's code. I don't really have any specific examples off the top of my head, but I do remember that there were some problems that I ran into. What one thing we are concerned about with this approach is we think it's a harder approach because we want to have a kind of standardized generic mechanism where someone, in addition, they write their manual plugin and then they add a file there. This used to be sort of like bite man rules, but we've actually moved away from bite man over to bite buddy, at least for Java, just for reasons. But you would add, you know, your little set of rules for how this plugin wants to be detected and wants to be installed. But, you know, run times are notoriously cranky. Agents traditionally end up with like lots and lots of special tricks and, you know, all kinds of like there's all kinds of shortcuts and special tricks and like horrible kitchen sink garbage you would never want people to see that you could stuff inside an agent if you were just doing it all. It's all one big black box. And by doing it, it's not a black box where we're saying here's the official mechanism for how it works and here's how you can plug into it. I assume that makes certain edge cases and certain forms of instrumentation like harder, honest to figure out how we're going to, you know, pull that off, basically. We've got less room to do some sleight of hand. I think the biggest trickiness around agents is around, or at least for Java, is the class path, dealing with the class path. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, on the plus side, there's now two distinct implementations of commercial agents that you can look to to see how that's being figured out, both us and Elastic. So, yeah. Yeah. I know we've definitely been blasting at the data. For sure. That was part of what prompted us to move over to BiteBuddy from BiteMan. We were having some trouble with BiteMan and we noticed you were using BiteBuddy instead and then we were like, oh yeah, this is way better. We actually started that. So, the folks that did the very, very first POC with Datadog kind of started with the Open Tracings Java agent as a template and so they were also based off of BiteMan. And yeah, very early on we made that to BiteBuddy and it was a significant improvement in in our life. Yeah. Well, I'm going to just paste, this is in the agenda. I'm just going to paste a link to the repo in the chat so people have it. We'll probably be doing a blog post about this the next week or two. But yeah, this is just a heads up. And also just a reminder, Open Tracing is 100% focused on an abstract API and manual instrumentation and not somehow getting people glued onto any one particular vendor implementation. And so we see this special agent is the beginning of we've got this solid manual instrumentation API. How can you build the rest of like an open source open ecosystem on top of that? That's helping the community but also part of the community effort. And we see this special agent as filling that role. Installing the, I think we still have room to grow in terms of coming up with a simpler instrumentation pattern for the simpler cases, like easier APIs for manual instrumentation. There's also very clear that just installing the preexisting instrumentation gives people a huge boost, which doesn't come as a shock to anyone who writes or sells an agent. But that's the point of the project. Just can we install preexisting instrumentation for people so they don't have to. And that's my pitch on special agent. Please check out the repo. So please start poking around with it if you are interested in Java. And if you are interested in this project, you think this is a cool idea and we are interested in starting a similar special agent for other languages where this might be possible, that would be super awesome. So please contact us if you're interested in Ruby or Python or some other language in working on this project. Yeah, I would also just say about the project in general, in addition to everything that Ted has said. What am I trying to say? It would be interesting to have other vendors poking at it, I guess, sort of for mutual interest. I'm not sure how folks feel about this, but generally speaking, my impression is that smart agents are not that differentiating. I don't want LightStep to build one. It's a waste of time not to just contribute it. So this is, in some ways, for LightStep, the beginnings of an effort to improve the integration experience for anyone adopting anything related to tracing, whether it's Yeager, LightStep, or New Relic, frankly, I don't care, but it's just whether they're adopting something. And it would be interesting to hear, maybe this is not the time people are going to say it, but if people actually want to differentiate through this stuff, it's kind of surprising to me. And if this is not the right approach to do it, it would be great to hear what is the right approach. So I feel like we would all benefit anyone who's trying to implement tracing from a backend standpoint. We would benefit by making adoption a lot easier. And it would probably, we'd probably get there faster and basically kind of accelerate adoption of things like this if there was a really solid like zero touch pure open source option. And that's really what this project is attempting to accomplish is to be a lightweight layer between, you know, the application end user and all this, you know, diaspora of instrumentation. So if this approach seems totally wrong, and that's the reason people don't want to get involved with it, it would be great to hear that feedback too. We will eventually build some like this and, you know, at least that regardless, but we'd rather do it in an open in a way that's portable. So I think that will basically make it more popular and adopted by more people. Question around open census. For those that are more familiar with that, I'm not particularly, but what I know that early on, they had started their their project with a little bit of instrumentation and I actually took some insight from that when I built the datadog one. You know what their current plans are? I do have a sense. Yeah, I attached them about that because I felt like it was really tempting to throw all that into the same repo and jar or whatever as the thing itself for just, you know, verticalization reasons, but it also can get really nasty because there's a lot of software out there. And it seemed like the direction they wanted to take was, and this is, you know, I could be off, but last I spoke to them about it, I think they felt like they wanted things that were really in their mind kind of elevated to like core status be part of the main repo, like something like gRPC would be on that list. But if there is some random framework or something, I don't think that their intention was to put that into the open census main repo. And I think they wanted to take a path similar to what open tracing has done, whether they had a contrib repo or a contrib organization or not, that things that were outside of like the, you know, fully embraced core projects would not live in open census repo. What I mean though is do they have their own Java agent or something that does the automatic instrumentation? Oh, sort of. Yeah.  Yeah. And just FYI, if you go looking around over there, they do have something called an open census agent, but it's not what you think it's not an APM, it's more like a side car or a daemon. So if you're looking in their project, that's what their agent is. Probably more like the Datadog agent. Yeah. Yeah, it's more like a... I battle that terminology every day just because Datadog started with their own agent, and then here comes the tracing that has, like, it's very common to have that terminology used as an agent too. So yeah. They've also got the open census... Sorry, go ahead, Austin. Yeah. I was going to say the open census service is the thing that kind of corresponds more to the Datadog agent, I think. Yeah. Yeah. They've got a service and an agent. That part I haven't fully kept track of. The agent is a side car or some sort of host-based proxy, and then the service is an aggregator. But I think the agent also does some host metric stuff. So it's all very confusing. I do think the long-term plan in open tracing, and I believe it was for open census, was the way to have automatically installed instrumentation would be if this could reach a point of standard, being standard and stable, that people would start natively instrumenting their libraries with something like open tracing. So you would need something like special agent to install software, but it would only be the things that didn't have native instrumentation. And so if you're looking at big core projects, the goal for those core projects would be to convince them to just come with instrumentation pre-baked so that they can, so that the people writing the software are the people thinking about tracing it. They're the people thinking about shipping you a playbook explaining, you know, what does it mean when you see these values show up as tags in your trace, like what should you do about that? I would really, as like the next stage of this project, I would love to see convincing people who ship libraries and frameworks to like really think about their end users having to operate their software and thinking about how they're going to ship them playbooks and assist them in understanding how to operate their software. And that if we can get people into that mindset, then stuff like this tracing API will seem a lot more useful to them. So I hope you get there. So I guess going back to my question around OpenCensus, I think they originally started out with ByteBuddy and that was one of the reasons that inspired me to explore ByteBuddy as well. So that might be worth considering like since we're talking about kind of merging in a per se the projects to a degree, maybe this could be a good starting point to kind of work closer together with them on a particular project rather than trying to build it separately. Good point. I will make a note to reach out to them. Yeah. And that way it can be like a point of collaboration that isn't so separate, I guess. I mean they've obviously got a lot of expertise in this area too. So one thing I do like about building these more advanced these kinds of value on top of the standards that feels good is like we all have to agree on the standards and that has to move very slow. And I would like us all to pile in and make something like Special Agent great. But one thing I do think that is nice is if once you're building on top of that platform it becomes like less important. Like that's the realm where you know there can be multiple projects. There can be multiple stabs at something. There can be multiple opinions up there. And so there's more room at that layer. And so for my mind it's like keeping things out of core is actually to Ben's point around trying to shove the agents and everything down into core. I've been like opposed to that in this project because I want to keep that core part where we have to really hash it out and all agree like as small as possible. Which doesn't mean I don't want OpenCensus involved in this project. I actually do because I think they're small. Yeah I'm not suggesting that you architect it like them. I'm just saying that they would probably be good collaborators. I do think they were hoping to bake every version of Spring into OpenCensus at one point and we were like I don't think that's going to work. All right well that's all I got on Special Agent and all I got on OpenCensus. And do we have a or just like some housekeeping stuff about the registry? Yeah. Yeah just so I don't know if everyone pays attention to all the minute of the OpenTracing repos but last month we I took everything so there had been this OpenCensus meta repo that had just a huge list of tracers and plugins and instrumentation and whatnot. So I went through last month for the ones that weren't already in the OpenTracing registry which is at opentracing.io slash registry. I made entries for those and put them there so that includes all like the data dog agents and stuff like that. And so now the meta repo is just kind of a pointer to the website. So if you have internal links or if you go looking for something and it's not there that's why it's all migrated to the registry. And just as a general note if you have instrumentation plugins, tracers, libraries, other open tracing related things that you would like to put into the registry please feel free to make a pull request on opentracing.io repo or you can ask me for help if you need it. I'm on Gitter. And yeah we've had a lot of really good growth of the registry over the past. And how long has it been now? Three months, four months. Last time I counted it we're up to like 140 odd pieces of flare in there. And yeah it's nice. People seem to like it. Yeah. I would do a quick shout out. You know that I'm super stoked about the registry. There's plenty of front-end work that could still be done on it. Things like searching and filtering and all of that jazz could just use some elbow grease. So if people have front-end skills and are looking for you know a way to show some open tracing love, working on the registry interface is definitely a place people can plug in. Yeah I think there might actually be some issues open in the repo for counter-desire for stuff that we wanted to do and didn't have a chance to but I might go through and add some if there isn't. So that was all I had about the registry in the meta. Well I don't actually see where the backing GitHub repo for that is. You link to the meta but that seems to be mostly empty. It's just it's the opentracing.io repo. Yeah okay the registry all the registry is it's you add a markdown file to one of the content directories and it shows up. It gets indexed or it gets turned in. Yeah it gets converted when we build the site. There's more explicit instructions on the web page too about exactly where you need to put the markdown file. And there's no like back-end database or anything. Right it's a fun little Hugo feature that lets you make JSON out of arbitrary documents. Another thing for people to maybe think about there's no API or anything. We just have like a Hugo site but or sorry yes Hugo site but if people do have thoughts about how the registry could be like actually useful as part of operations in some way if there would be some way to make it useful if it had an API of some kind that you could query that would be interesting thoughts. We haven't put too much thought into people doing anything with it other than you know looking through it on the website but I imagine there's other ways this could potentially be useful. Yeah technically you can there's an endpoint you can curl to get the JSON that makes up that registry back or back-end so if you really wanted to you could do something with it but you know pit me up on Gitter if you want to if anyone's on the call and wants to talk about it and would love to chat more about registry stuff. All right I think we're coming to a close final comments questions before we get out of here well it's good seeing you all I'll see you all on the Gitters and yeah new name we need a name everyone dream one up happy Friday happy Friday everyone


Russia lost seven Su-25 fighter jets near Avdiivka. Valery Zaluzny, commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Ukraine, reported that within a month of the occupiers' active assaults on the city of Avdiivka, the defence forces of Ukraine killed about 10,000 Russian occupiers, seven Su-25 aircraft and a lot of other equipment. It has been a month since the enemy started an active assault on Avdiivka. This was a month of fierce battles, stamina and courage of our defenders, who continue heroically holding the defence. During this time, our soldiers destroyed over 100 Russian tanks, 250 other armoured vehicles, about 100 artillery systems and seven Su-25 aircraft. The total losses of the Russians in manpower are about 10,000 people, Valery Zaluzny added. Zaluzny has thanked the brigade's infantry, artillery, tankers, reconnaissance, UAV operators and medics who are defending Avdiivka for their work. During three weeks of assaults near Avdiivka on the Denechsk front, Russian troops lost 100 tanks and 250 units of other equipment. Since the middle of October, the Russians have been trying to surround Avdiivka but they are not succeeding.