I look to call to order the January 11, 2016 meeting of the Arlington Redevelopment Board. We have a few things on the agenda this evening before we get to it. I think everyone's here for us. Just be patient with us as we move through here. We are being recorded by ACMI. First up this evening is the appointment of the Arlington Redevelopment Board representative to the Open Space Committee. It's been suggested that Wendy Richter take that spot. I think Wendy you're here way in the back tonight. If you could come up and state your name and address for the board and just tell us a little bit about yourself. My name is Wendy Richter and I am an architect and a longtime resident. I've been in Arlington for 20 years. I'm interested in open space. I'm an avid walker. I feel like I know the town pretty well from on foot and I was involved with the master plan process. I was on the master plan advisory committee and I have continued now on the implementation committee. So this would be another another hat to wear in the process. So and Anne LaWoyne also took the chair of the open space committee. I didn't see you back there and I apologize. Do you want to come up as well? Can any questions for either Anne or Wendy? Andy? No. All right. I appreciate that your offering. Wendy came to our last meeting and met the other members and you know we all thought she would be a great new member for our group. So we're and especially to have a represent the ARB we haven't had an active representative from this group for a while because the previous person could stop being able to do it. So we're glad to have a you know a more formal liaison. As are we we'd ask that you report back quarterly at least at most rather semi-yearly at best. At least seeing that entertain a motion. I move to appoint Wendy Richter as volunteer as ARB liaison on the open space committee. Is that correct? All right. I'll second that. All in favor. Hi. Congratulations. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thanks Anne. Thank you for doing this. Sir. Before we move to the next item I just wanted to let people know that last month we appointed David Fields to represent the ARB and the Arlington Preservation Committee, Arlington Preservation Fund and David has let us know that he's he has resigned and is moving on to a new position in Lexington so we will have to reappoint someone but the next meeting is not until May so there's not a pressing need to do that at this meeting. Okay. So I think if we could get a couple of candidates presented to us before then that would be fine. We can wait at least until the next meeting if not further up to the spring. That's fine. Next up is we've been asked to comment is to the Zoning Board of Appeals on a comprehensive permit filed by the Housing Corporation of Arlington regarding property at 20 Westminster Ave. And I believe yes could you come forward Pam introduce yourself for the record. Sure. And Laura can you tell us a little bit about what the ZBA is looking for? Yes. Do I'm going to summarize the project or just why don't you summarize the project then we can ask questions. Pam. Yeah so this is a currently it's a vacant church that has not been used as a church in a couple of years. It's in Downing Square. It's a triangular parcel a pretty large parcel. And the proposal is to convert it to nine units of affordable housing. All of the units will be affordable. The reason that it needs a comprehensive permit rather than just a special permit or EDR is that it is a multi it's a single family zone and this is multi-family housing so that is not allowed by right or or even by special permits. So a comprehensive permit is needed and it is because the units are affordable that makes it allowable. They've been to the ZBA for one hearing and they will be going back to the ZBA tomorrow. They have asked all 10 departments and boards to comment on the proposal if they have any comments. So it's coming before you to just say if you have any concerns about it or want to just voice your support for the project. Okay Ken. Well I suppose so is this an as-right project it's 40B? Oh I'm not sure what you mean by that an as-right. As-right is 40B is is not as-right. Not as-right. It's not allowed because it's a single family zone and it's nine units in one building. Okay at that my understanding of 40B was that if you do all affordable housing and fall under the state statute and Arlington right now is below. That's not true. That's not true? It is not. Okay and that's why there's no approvals needed. This is not before approval right this is just for our recommendation. This is for our your comment. We're just being asked to give comment. Okay. It's the zoning board and the appeals that grants comprehensive permits. Okay ZBA has asked us to provide comment so we asked Pam to come here as a representative to answer any questions we might have. Well I had one comment well one to start off with I guess is the package I was given did not show where the trash was going to be collected for the project okay or it showed it as two spots one along the street here and one along well both sides here but now you seem to be showing a new plan that was submitted today which is going to be one is going to be interior along Westminster Avenue. Yes. And the other ones behind the vestibule where you had well I'm not sure where this- No the other is on Lowell right beside the building it's in this section right here currently there is an old shed there which we'll take down and we will put the trash there and surround it with a fence so it'll be immediately outside the front door on on um which street on Lowell street here I think it should be in here I certainly sent them out if not I have a copy yeah no I there's yeah so on the site plan that was submitted that site plan is not here but I will I have a site plan so a site plan that's submitted is inaccurate then right where you that was submitted back in early December the zoning board of appeals asked us to go ahead and look at alternatives okay so and we've changed the location okay that's pretty much all I had for questions as far as that because it was not you're not now when you say you are going to try to find offsite parking um for for anybody that may need it where would that offsite parking well actually what we stated was that there would be off overnight parking for guests um we didn't state that we would be looking for oh offsite parking for the tenants um we did a survey of our wait list we had good 500 good email list that we sent out a description of the project and said that we were thinking about doing it with no parking and we asked our potential tenants to comment on whether they would live there and have no parking spaces and so we had 95 that responded out of the 500 and 63 of those said I don't need parking I don't utilize a car so that would be our universe of wait list recipients that we would plan to have in this building so you're saying you're only selecting from people who has no cars right because there will be no parking provided with these units okay because it's the very tight streets at that corner is a kind of a crazy corner as far as right I mean I go through it all the time and people don't know where where the stop sign is that I agree I go through it every day to at least twice you don't know who has to ride away and so far that and then if you add parking along there it just gets really and that's what we're saying is no parking so we're anticipating our tenants not having cars okay so so what you said here in a brief is that you would try to find off-site parking for guests for guests actually yes and what we've done is we have there's actually a bylaw in the the town bylaw that allows waivers for overnight parking up to 14 per year per address and they have to apply to the police um and go ahead and then the police have to grant it so that's what we do for overnight guests we don't anticipate we don't typically have many overnight guests for our tenants we also have three or two other spaces that are a little bit further away they're four tenths of a mile away one is at 1166 mass af we have excess parking in that parking lot and we have at 34 forestry we have excess parking there so we would have two of those parking spaces available and how far are those away four tenths of a mile which is so about 2 000 feet okay certainly walkable right down lower lap which way towards Cambridge okay Andy oh just more on your subject so that the HCA has excess parking spaces unused at each of these other parking properties that's on page five yes of the of the properties that we have parking lots yes it's their excess they're always excess in capital square we have 32 spaces for 32 units we have 10 to 11 spaces available any day so that's just a substantiation of not needing the parking that's exactly right okay that our tenants often do not have cars by choice and they utilize public transportation and and how does the guest parking work you get a permit to park where it would be on the street somewhere okay so it's a permit by the police how do you get that there is a whole system I have a copy if you'd like to see it it's it's written up it's on the town website that's okay okay and so you apply you apply to the police they hope a couple of days in advance right right of when you need it and then they grant it if they think it's acceptable we see applicants prefer leasing off-site parking for tenants as necessary sorry they're just different places where well this is a yes this is getting to be a little bit old okay okay that's all that's part of the problem okay okay got you your variance really comes down to the use the zoning and the fact that we are asking for no parking those are the two the zoning meaning the use does it single family as opposed to so once you have a variance for the use so that you could have multifamily yes then it comes down to parking right we're asking for both waivers but if you if you had the parking are there any other issues that would come along with the multifamily no okay I didn't think so so now I kind of get it what you're going for and why do you need to seek a waiver from the requirement of applying for a training certificate for the historic district um when we approach the historic district it um we at that point were planning a parking lot and we could not agree on what we were going to do with the retaining wall it was very expensive um and so as we backed away from that discussion we asked that um we just don't have to go back to the commission and we had no parking so that was their issue that was their issue remember the district commission could I address that Andrew it's up to you when you want to take public I'll allow you to address that one issue we actually had three issues one was the retaining wall all we wanted was that it be brick faced rather than poured concrete which would have cost one half of one percent of the project cost um the others we didn't want to trash things right at the street level sounds like let me try to ameliorate that and the third thing is we wanted to be sure that if they're adding windows that they all be in a certain configuration and those are got you um and then just finally what's then gonna happen but you're controlling the triangle yes we're um we're going to landscape it uh with uh yes that is a potential look at actually I don't know where that one came from that's rather old as well um we are proposing a sculpture garden be put there and we're talking to artists about how we would do that but we will do a significant amount of landscaping in there as well so this is not it but that's what the yes sculpture and yes that would be the idea so how does it work do you walk through it is it public access or is it private to the we would have public access only for shows but most of the time no you mean first like a sculpture show yes but it's owned by you yes for private use of the residents or just a separate it's just for it's our property and we've decided to keep it open not related to not related to the nothing to do in the in the end the tenants are not going to be sitting out right open space it's just basically open space great but there's no fencing around it right there is fence along Westminster that's because of the retaining wall uh at the top of the retaining wall there's no fencing on the other areas yeah no there's no fencing okay so it it's it's visually open yes so it's not like fenced off like it's a private courtyard or somewhere that to it's it's private land but it's not private land but you'll allow public access park owned by the housing corporation of Arlington right i know it's or as long as you want to keep it as a private as a park or is it what's the our intent is to keep it open okay that's it i asked one other question is there any handicapped units in here there are three um how do you get to it uh off of Westminster there will be a new uh ramp there's a currently a ramp as well and that will be a better ramp yes this is the ramp right okay and then down here on the there are actually three floors and on um there there will be wheelchair accessibility both through this door and doors this this way there will be two disabled units in what is the lowest level but it's above ground on the Lowell side this is very steep yep here so um when you look at the building it looks from Westminster it looks like a one-story building but from Lowell it looks like a three-story building yeah and so the accessible units will be on the very lowest side except for this one which will be ramped in and that'll be at the second level right third actually third yes so with someone okay have you considered making it a usable open park to the public um at this point no you mean donating it to the town the donating it to the yes to the town we had not considered that no do you have other other open spaces like this that are owned by the housing corporation well most of our property has you know some but not it's part of the property now this is an independent well it's all part of the same um parcel I mean there are two parcels there but it's part of the same piece but nobody can go on and accept it well no one goes on it now except the we specifically in permission open space but it's not a usable park it's it we're not giving it to the town so it would not be a municipally owned town a municipal park I mean it wouldn't be a municipal right I'm sorry right I see what any sort of I'm not sure I don't know where I'm going but I was uh well I mean you guys will be maintaining this absolutely okay we maintain it now I mean last year we spent a lot of money maintaining this site okay and we fully intend to do it in the future okay that's you know you just it will be a pretty predominant thing in the area if you sort of let it go and that'd be that'd be a shame but we're planning to do um you know permanent plantings uh that are perennial that you know would be very attractive the church across the street does it well they do it with all their volunteers we don't see that that would be a problem for ours as either okay I'm assuming you have a landscape architect working on this or we do so they'll probably keep this area kind of low just knowing there's a tree there now nobody treats fairly high up so when you come around a corner you can see cars coming all the way oh absolutely yes don't you think that you know if you put too much stuff there it's going to block we will definitely keep yes we'll definitely view leave the views it is absolutely we actually had talked to a traffic engineer to come out and see if we donated the point of our land to the town was there enough space to create a roundabout to solve some of the traffic problems and he said no we'd have to take this from the church and that from that piece and so we gave up on that it's too bad I know have you worked with the town at all in any sort of traffic mitigation the way that it's it's four stop signs and one free for all well we've talked to them and what they keep telling me and as this traffic engineer did is we've gotten to the point where we think it's as good as we're going to get so okay and I understand that it's nine units it's one studio five one beds two two bedrooms one three bedroom right right how many people do you expect to actually occupy the entire building well we probably expect no more than four or five children um and then we at maximum we could see what five six seven eight maybe eleven you know adults because a lot of the one bedrooms will undoubtedly be single adults that's typically who we have in our one bedroom units okay and would you be giving preference to people who don't have cars and it's that's kind of difficult to control okay yes okay I mean you may actually find the traffic is better now that there won't be a school there with families coming in completely agree and actually the school agrees to this headmaster actually stood up at the community meeting and said you know I want you to understand once we close the school your traffic problem will be greatly diminished that's part of that problem um what kind of input have you received from butters on either Lowell Street or Westminster um we had our community meeting back a year ago November and at that point they were concerned about parking at that point we were proposing one parking space per unit and they were nervous about that they didn't like the idea of us utilizing the green space for parking that was going to be the only place that we could put it right now it's green space they wanted to remain as green space um that's that's the kind of input we've had now at the zba meeting there were a few people that were objecting to um having it turned into a multifamily building one one a butter um and um there were some other comments about affordable housing and what about the construction impact how long do you expect the project to take maybe there you'll have some traffic issues a year maximum um because we're not doing a lot of work to the exterior of the building we already have a brand new roof on it um it'll be mostly interior work so yes we'll have trucks parked along the side um but we don't anticipate a lot of work on the exterior of the building which we'll be doing a lot of work in the courtyard area which will be taking the playground out and we might be doing some staging there just so that we can um you know utilize things on the inside looking at one of the plans you'll be renovating that area and adding really not very much not much no that's all yeah that is all existing we'll be removing the the playground equipment now and just upgrading that for tenant use yes okay and we'll be rebuilding this stone wall that's down here but other than that most yes low right okay but most of the other work will be interior basically i think that answers my issues okay thank you laura anything uh no i just wanted to ask you you know whether you wanted to submit a comment and if so what what you would like to see and i will write it for you and run it by andrew or all three i can reveal three people sure andy um can you make a condition that they will not own a car um i think we can make in a condition of the lease that they don't plan to park illegally um and that they fully are aware that there is no parking provided for them as part of the rental um i don't think it's legal this is tell them they cannot own a car and i this in some way we're very interested in this i think this open space and the benefit to the area and in what way could we be made aware or the zoning committee be made aware of any changes that might happen to that absolutely has a basis for their approval of the we have a pipe fence that's there now that's been there since probably 1959 it's been repaired and replaced as we've gone along and as other owners have gone along we were planning to keep that because it's sort of in keeping with the look of the building uh that's so we were not planning to replace that we are planning to put a bit of a privacy fence probably like along here but it would really not be seen with because we'll be putting uh plantings along the outside of it that's just for the benefit of the tenants off of Westminster this side of Westminster the stairs will be made more safer i guess i would say it um right now people do use it to go from Lowell to Westminster and they'll be still be allowed to absolutely that's what i absolutely agree can anything further no i think the zba should be able to handle this i don't have any comments i mean the information we were given wasn't all coordinated but the fact that you're answering it and giving me different things i think i've answered most of our questions and most of my questions i think for the most part i'm fairly comfortable with this i think you said it yourself in the in the application but i think you're right i think it does meet some of the goals of the town it's a low impact on the neighborhood and it may actually see improvement as far as traffic as far as parking um certainly as far as pedestrian use goes especially if we can ensure that this open space here is able to be utilized by abutters and neighbors i think you might actually see this be a nice little start uh for that entire square to come up a little bit that's our hope yeah good so it's seriously positive it'll be nice project all right all right thank you thank you thank you it's not seven thirty yeah but it will be in two minutes can i go there yeah we'll take a recess and then begin right at seven thirty with the zoning amendment discussion so i'll wait a comment later to that effect i'll stay through i think that's my refresh all right so right now there's a notepad going around the room if you'd like to speak please put your name down we'll call on you in the order that you've signed up on the sheet tonight we're only going to be discussing proposed residential zoning amendments we have been discussing potential mixed use amendments that discussion is going to take place at our next meeting which is going to be on february first i'm sorry if you came out for that tonight but i don't think you did um this is a continuation of discussion that's happened over the last several meetings our last meeting some uh town meeting members and other interested residents had asked to present a powerpoint presentation and make some comments so well that sign-up sheet is going around the room i'm going to ask that when elevens come up to go ahead and and make that presentation uh and then at that point we will open the floor to public comment thank you can i just um proceed by talking about the master plan a little bit please yes okay so i'm during the process of doing the master plan the the um general comments that we received were that people wanted to see more um revitalization and development in the commercial areas but they wanted to try to protect the residential areas from um over development and so the the staff has been working with the building inspector and the and the redevelopment board and um uh the master plan implementation committee to sort of craft some modest changes to the uh residential sections of the zoning bylaw to control the size of new additions and new um new homes being built um and during that process we've also been working a little bit with a neighborhood group has come to some of our to one of our meetings previously to um make sort of some counter proposals so that's where we are we're not at the point of sending anything to town meeting yet um and we wanted to kind of vet some of the different ideas and and hear what what the community thought um i don't see where i demolizer that's gonna throw everything off um so um my name is winnell evans and thank you all very very much for the opportunity to present this um i can probably get through this pretty quickly as soon as everything connects um and uh run through this in about six or seven seconds um this came about i've lived in arlington um for about 30 years now both as a tenant and as a homeowner and i run and walk all over town um and i've rehearsed this 900 times so i don't know where on earth it is sorry about this should be here well you know what i may be able to do this is not optimal but i can also wait a minute it's not hooking up it's not for some reason i have gone through this a gazillion times she's not getting the signal to the projector right right right she doesn't have the signal to the projector right and it's all we did run through what i got here was fine at the right spot this happens to everybody now we'll come to that and then there should be something on here that does turn it off and turn it on again it should have been connected i'm going wrong for it well no we switch it because we're working just to come read it it's better if this goes on first we've got a sequence well like i said worst times the worst i can show it on my computer it does not do that much smaller so why don't we do that we'll do the the less optimal version sorry about this everybody so anyways as i was saying this came about and i think it's a really good idea to do this tonight because it's a good visual reminder of what is at stake as we discuss the zoning changes that are up so i've lived in arlington a long time i run and walk all over town i have seen an explosion of tear downs and new construction going on which i'm very very concerned about and i began thinking about this project months ago as a way to bring attention to this issue it is not my intent to signal out any one specific house i'm trying to show a larger trend that is going on in town uh then the master plan process came along which i participated in and found it to be fascinating and was really happy to see that uh the clear findings of this master plan process showed that people love their neighborhoods and want to preserve them they're concerned with both the scale and the character of new development and the ways that it's changing our neighborhoods so the main issues that i hope to show with this powerpoint are that these new homes are much larger than those they replace they are much more homogenous in appearance prices have increased rapidly because of the size of these houses builders are clear cutting the lots and we're losing tree cover faster than we're replacing it their size means that we're losing the large yards and the sort of casual informal green space that are so important to arlington when we tear down older homes that are in good shape we're adding materials to landfills this is not a sustainable process and many costs of community services surveys show unequivocally that new residential development costs a town more in services that it brings in in revenues and anecdotally as i traveled around shooting these pictures i talked to a lot of neighbors who were without exception oh my god um they were without exception we'll see if it shows up um unhappy with the changes in their neighborhoods so the first category that i want to take a look at are the duplex style houses which are all over town um most of these replace front yards and health strips with driveways and very wide curb cuts almost all of them involve clear cutting of the lots each unit in these duplexes goes on the market for 650 000 and well up this is prohibitive to many many people trying to move into arlington and no matter where they are built they are all the same we are looking at losing our distinct neighborhoods such as the classic east arlington two families and the smaller single families of the heights and as you look at these if you can see these you will notice a lack of trees and green space very homogenous in style the second category i want to look at are the oversized houses uh where we see that lots that once held one house are being developed to hold two in some cases more these new houses are much larger once again we're losing that informal kind of green space those little bits of wildness that are so important to the pedestrian experience and the overall feel of our town we are running the danger of becoming like cambridge with every backyard filled in and every lot developed to its maximum potential um again these involve the clear cutting of the lots and the loss of mature trees and much of course higher prices most of these go on the market for 800 000 and up um and again this is not to single out any specific house this to show a trend that is happening all over town here we see a huge mature tree being cut down to make room uh this particular development we see a backyard filled in with three or four condos and then a parking lot so that's two backyards at once gone um and just very very large houses that are going up i have also put together some before and after slides just to give a sense of the scale of what is going on in town where smaller two three four bedroom houses are being torn down and extremely large houses are going up um overwhelming the neighborhoods in many cases and in this one with the aerial shot you can see a really good indication of what happens with the clear cutting for the lot this is a lot that held one house was completely the trees are all gone now there are two very large houses they are going for over a million apiece um but there is good development positive development going on in town and i also wanted to show that to end on a positive note uh there is new construction that is using finished materials and design which is in keeping with the neighborhoods there are renovations that preserve the street face of the house that add the square footage in the back or on the side there is construction that is trying to preserve trees that does not clear cut the lots as it goes and that maintains a sense of scale in relationship to existing houses so it can be done and then finally i have some suggestions to preserve the character of arlington which residents have said is so important to them i would like to ask that we consider taking the master plan recommendation that demolition permits go before the historical commission one step further and implement hearings for neighbors prior to granting demolition permits i would like to think about considering um a policy to protect older smaller houses in good shape so that we preserve some semi affordable housing in town and make it possible for people to live here who can't afford million dollar houses we desperately need to regulate the removal of mature trees as other towns do and in the powerpoint i've provided links to the tree policies bylaws and some other towns and i would also like to ask that maybe we consider requiring the planting of one or two trees on new lots before an occupancy permit is granted i'd like to ask that we maybe consider discouraging certain finished materials as water town does and probably other towns that i didn't get to in my research and finally as we move into the discussion to amend the the zoning bylaws as in the draft amendments which you all have which are now up for discussion so thank you all very much and i'm sorry for the complete total meltdown thank you who knows my pleasure sorry about this kina randy do you have any questions or comments not at this time okay i'd like to yeah okay uh first on our list is joe bar as i call your name just reiterate your name address and whether you are in our linkedin resident so joe bar is first hi joe bar i'm the i live at 24 park street and i was a member of the master plan advisory committee when i was active and now i'm in the master plan implementation committee so i just wanted to really quickly um kind of just say from the perspective of both of those committees this was as laura alluded to something that we heard a lot about um and we know i think that there are certain things we can do and certain things that we really can't do to address the situation that it was certainly something that you know from the public and from the members of the committee was something that we heard strongly and i think many of us felt strongly about i'll admit that i'm someone who lives in what i consider to be what not the most egregious of one of houses that you're referring to at least our driveway isn't our basement our garage is in the basement um which i think is one of the most desirable outcomes of many of these but i agree that we need to do something within the limits of what is sort of acceptable legally and for the community um but i think just i just wanted to stay from the committee both committees perspectives if this is something we think we we thought was very important and we're you know glad to see that we're starting to make some progress on this issue i don't know that what the the ideas that have been put out you know from the staff and and the implementation committee's ends are the the the best answer but i think it's starting to address the problem so we'll pull it something you know move forward to to start to address the situation bill coppethorn uh bill coppethorn sweeney octon real estate uh most palanquin resident there are a few thoughts on this one of the concerns i have is i've been involved in a number of these projects actually for full disclosure but uh a lot of these properties that are being sold they're being sold by you know long time allent and residents that have been here 40 50 years you know paying and paying their taxes and their way to secure their retirement is to you know to sell these properties for their for their highest price and a lot of these properties due to the owner's ages or whatever you know certainly falling falling into a little bit of disrepair uh you know making their highest and best use at the time of sale to be sold to a developer and you know i'm all for preserving the character of the town i've been here all my life i'm not going anywhere but i think with some of some of these you know restrictions are going to make uh it impossible for some development on these properties which in turn would you know affect you know the value of the property you know for these people that have paid their taxes for you know for 50 years they could have a very negative impact on their their later years in life as far as clear cutting you know trees and such i don't know of any development that's going to cut down the tree that he doesn't have to you know it may happen but you know as i would agree if there's a restriction in there for you know plant planting a tree before an occupancy permit is presented i don't see issue with that but with you know some of the other proposed changes i just think it would make you know future development to this town very prohibitive and you know a lot of the houses that are being replaced in such condition that thing they need to be replaced and if you look at some of these these neighborhoods with his his rows of these you know 50s and 50s two family homes that are you know looking their age and they are being replaced with larger homes but i for one find them you know pretty pretty attractive as far as the numbers you know i think they you know they do add to the tax base but i guess there's you know servers that show that it's not necessarily the case but just a few of my thoughts john warden thank you mr chairman well we have made available to you our proposed amendments to deal with this epidemic um and i know there are people in the room who will uh disagree if there's some comments now that every bit of land should be exploited to the max because somebody can make some money out of it um that's not a sentiment that i share and i hope you don't because we are we are all no man is an island we're all a member of a larger community and and that community is our town and and if we if we turn our town into an anonymous bunch of lookalike vinyl clad boxes they ain't going to be like the town we love anymore so like to briefly review the the five articles we've presented some of these articles are in parallel thought with the work that Ted Fields has been doing and some of them may be somewhat duplicative um but um oh and and these these are these articles are to they may not be the perfect responses to problems but there are problems that have been identified in part through the research and our own observations of the way the current zoning bylaw has been abused let me say to um to create some of these larger homes uh so the first and they're not in any particular order um the first one is is to deal with the height issue and all of you are familiar with the the the building that has a fully exposed basement and two floors and then an attic uh which is um like a third floor or a fourth floor if you will and and the way that is done on a sloping lot is really by the rather curious way in which height is calculated and the first article which I've called a is is to say height will be measured from the bottom to the top and if you have a grade on the property or you create a grade or something that that that's not going to count um the second one and this is tricky uh the the half story and I know Fields has looked at this so we've looked at at provisions in um several other communities it doesn't seem to be a terribly good way to get at this and we we had a brief discussion about this when we were with you in December but this is this is this is a stab at it to make sure that a half story really is a half story not not a bunch of uh oversight unlike uh the third article um is um addresses a very uh a very uh concern that that you brought to my attention a lot uh the um the fact that if you have a a group of typically sized towels one and a half story two and a half story but at the typical height uh and then you put one of these McMansions next door to it 10 feet away or well it could be 20 feet away depending on where your house is sitting uh you may lose your sunlight you may be cast into shade uh you're certainly going to lose your view um and and so the idea is you may require a little more space another 10 feet now now if that if that little house that happens to be there is already 20 feet mid-side line and you don't have to change the sidelines but but a little more so so there's a minimum of 30 feet between buildings instead 20 feet uh the next uh item is the um it is the one that um again we we talked about this briefly when we were with you in December um and this is the large residential additions and and the um basically what we're proposing is that we would we would take away that exception for building in the original footprint uh and we would um basically if you tear something down build something new that would be considered a large residential uh extension and and and the real purpose of this is uh that it's to give the neighborhood a say that's not to say they can veto it or but they can come to a hearing before the zoning board and and and have their say and and maybe get some requirements on that new building that will not overwhelm the neighborhood and there's some other criteria mentioned in there um the next uh the the next item is um is uh if there is one single point that I've heard the most objections to in my travels around town my conversations with people particularly during the you know recent season where you get to go to more parties than usual at least I did um is those two garages staring you right in the face and that that wide curb cut um that that that is is is the whole signature of this new large building and so those people want want to take part their cars although I know many garages are just filled with junk and the cars are outside um so we propose to push that uh if if that garage opening is at the front of the house it it should be pushed back 10 feet um and perhaps uh and and uh Mr. Fields uh amendment has something about parking I couldn't quite understand where he was getting at but I think it's it's important uh to and you know yourselves you you've looked around town those garages staring you in the face are a very unfortunate looking uh appearance and we that's an attempt to deal with it now the gross flurry area uh both Mr. Fields and we have have um tinkered with it um and and try to make the gross flurry really yeah the gross flurry is going to be basically all the whole building not not and we work with some exclusions and so on uh to to limit the exclusions to things that really ought to be excluded and to include things that really ought to be in there the the language of the definition itself is a little murky um uh and it needs some cleaning up or we also dealt with the seven foot business um uh and um uh that was the uh and then um the uh the final uh the final thing is uh to to uh address a as you perhaps know um there's a there's a backyard requirement of 20 feet between the building and your back your back line but if if your lot is extra shallow uh you can do it with half the 20 percent of the full lot depth so if you're a lot instead of being i'm not gonna i'm not gonna try to do the arithmetic right here off the top of my head but uh basically our feeling was well if you've got an undersized lot say a 5 000 foot lot or like the one next door to me 3500 feet 2500 feet um then you should be able to use this exception if you've got a uh a 6000 foot lot you should be able to find a way to put the house on it and still have have have have that 20 foot backyard because that faces the next guy's backyard and why should your house be so close to him so that that is the the proposals we have we hope to be able to um to to work with you uh and jointly going to town meeting with solutions this problem um of course of course of the calendar is kind of catching up with us now so we may have to go ahead and file these articles and proceed from that thank you thank you uh chrystal ready can you move me to the end of the list mr chairman is that sure uh joe bow thank you mr chairman um i'd like to bring up a a few points in where you're from i'm from arlington sorry 74 mystic street arlington i've lived in arlington for three years i've worked in this town for around a little over 15 and um i just want to point out the fact that you know each one of these duplexes which i think is what we're all talking about yet um directly employs 30 to 40 people and myself included i'm a carpenter so i mean i have four kids and um this will directly affect me this amendment will directly affect me and my children and a lot of other hardworking people that i know will be potentially put out of a job if this passes um and i would also you know like to echo some of the stuff that mr carpeth once said um these buildings that everybody is so set on preserving are you know sieves they're just uh they're not efficient at all a lot of them have asbestos side and hanging off a lot of them are structurally unsound in the people that own them have you know worked very hard to pay for them and they want to sell them for as much as they can get and uh that's it's going to get it's also going to affect a lot of elderly people in this town that want to sell their house and go into retirement um also everybody's talking about how these homes that are being built are an eyesore and uh you know i'd just like to point out the fact that these houses are selling the first open house so somebody likes them you know you know the people in this town you know that are trying to get this pass may not like them but that's their own opinion you know uh and it's also important to understand that these are energy energy efficient homes and they cost a fraction of of what it takes to heat and power the other homes so i mean it i think that's you know there's not a lot of people that can pay that can afford to uh fix up the houses the older houses so um i guess that's about it thank you thank you john belskis john belskis uh town meeting member from precinct 18 uh i got two views on this you heard earlier the opportunity to provide more affordable housing in allington that's a concern uh the people that uh grew up in this town can't afford to stay in this town so allington has worked hard to create affordable housing i've seen at least six small capes in good condition disappear i don't know how the developers get first call on them because the sign goes up at uh three in the afternoon the place sold before sunset uh so i i think there's something going on where these things never really hit the market the fact is we're losing affordability in allington now i'll take off the affordable housing act and talk about what happens when you get one of these because i got one right next door to me if the screen had cooperated i also have a video with a soundtrack that'll scare hell out of you my concern is we seem to be playing right to the edge of the existing zoning laws and permissions there was a small cape next to me when it came up to sale and all of a sudden was sold and i heard there was going to be a remodeling i went and took a look at the building permit very simple they were going to remove the roof remove the second floor and build from there on the same footprint well i'll tell you that stretches the imagination beyond belief okay the porch was a temporary type porch on cinderblock foundation how it was considered part of the whole house fine that's our bylaws and they let it stand the whole thing was demolished basically they left the floor of the first floor and two walls i guess there's some glitch in the spectral surfaces that says oh it doesn't need a demolition permit we left two walls up we're just remodeling it okay uh as i watched progress on this thing the porch came off completely but they didn't use the same footprint they extended it and put in a full foundation so they could put up a full structure there was a single garage that was on a pad that of course came off but then they extended the pad by putting in a full foundation if you ever heard an excavator with a jack power jackhammer going for seven hours of the day shaking stuff off your shelves rattling your windows they had to break the ledge so they could extend it to put in a full foundation because what was a single-story garage with a roof went up the two floors to fill the structure you've got a picture of it in the presentation unfortunately we couldn't put it up i have a bone to pick with inspectional services that's not your interest the site was a disaster i sat with this almost a year i used to go around the neighborhood picking up the debris that blew from the site the materials were dumped all over the place you want to live with something like that to be a joke they talk about us all the folks and i'm an old retired guy okay on fixed income it's just unbelievable what goes on with the construction on these things okay yeah i'd like to sell my house if by chance i had to sell my house while this was going on my value probably would be cut in half because no one want to live next to what was going on next door to me they sell within a week i got some i got some questions about that because this damn thing sat on the market for a long time i understand it sold now but i haven't seen the papers pass we're destroying the character of ollington there's dozens of these in my neighborhood literally dozens and they're all huge houses and unless you've had the experience of being next to one of these and these developers are all follows to talk to each other you got some people in your community that basically do a crappy job maintaining the area and we have to live with it when i have to walk down the street to pick up wrappings from material to keep my neighborhood looking decent something wrong here i think they've pushed the edge too far on building these buildings this is well outside what the house was if they had stayed on the same foundation and did what they said initially fine i don't see my morning sun anymore because it's right on the 20 foot line and it's three stories plus high we're going to do something thank you thank you Wendy rector i'm going to pass because i thought this was after another presentation so i'll save my comments back to chris already oh thanks mr. chairman thank you for putting me at the end i'm uh you know i think it's hard to understand exactly what's being proposed without kind of going through the details of the bylaw zoning bylaw as it exists and what the changes are and i would um i don't view this in any way as trying to prevent redevelopment of existing properties or even prevent tear down you know frankly i agree with a lot of developers there's quite a few houses around them that could be torn down and with new structures built in their place but i think the issue really is how does the kind of bylaw lead and are the structures that are being built consistent with the spirit of the bylaw and i view this more as a tweaking of the existing definitions when you have a limit of two and a half stories and look at some of these houses and look at the top floor and nobody would ever consider to have story because it looks exactly like a full third floor then i think we've got a problem with the way the bylaw is written and the reality and similarly with with the height of the building but they're supposed to be limited to two and a half stories high and 35 feet um you know in the research that we've done the way that arlington defines some of these things and a lot of the exceptions that are loopholes written in the bylaw aren't there in other towns in other cities and frankly i'm not sure in some of the communities like summerville which we would consider a much more densely built community you could get away with a lot of the things that you can get away with there always can so um i guess i would simply say to everyone here particularly those who have concerns about this um you probably haven't seen the details yet and before the bylaws actually changed those details will have to be published this board will have to have a formal public hearing and you will have the right to be heard um so i would simply say i hope we can continue this process i think ted fields has has made a very good start on a lot of these things making some ways you know we'd like to go a little bit further but um i think we need to look at particularly look at the existing buildings not the smallest ones from the old houses on the loss but look at the biggest ones from 50 or 100 years ago on the lots and see how they compare with a lot of the new construction and i think you'll find that a lot of the new constructions bigger than the biggest of of what people value in the character around them all right thank you any other public comment before i open it up to the board yes uh name and address i don't know any of the details of the laws here and i can't speak to people's aesthetic so one thing i would like to say is that i have obsessively watched the real estate market in arlington for 15 years i know every house that has sold in all this time i don't know why i watch it so carefully but i do and um regarding people who want to sell their houses and cash in and go off and retire i don't think they're the ones who are making the money because when you watch a house get sold and you see it sell for 750 thousand dollars then watch the plot be subdivided the original house whatever happens to it i'm not sure and a new house get those then you can watch the sale of those two houses the first one which is now in a much smaller plot of land half of it selling for a good hundred thousand more than the original purchase price plus the new house going for upwards of eight hundred thousand dollars so somebody is making a lot of money but i don't think it's the original owner okay can i just add that in other communities what you're seeing is um people stuck in houses you know i mean they can't afford to fix their houses they they can't get what they need to retire or you know they they can't sell them and they're literally stuck in their houses that you see that in other communities that that's my parents are going through it right now you know what i mean had they had a crystal ball and bought a house in arlington or newton or somerville they'd be in a very different situation so i mean you know just think about the people that these things employ think about the they do make the money the people that are selling the house they instantly make the money sure the developer makes more you know then takes it in in it makes more from it but of course they you don't want your homes to be worth less you know what i mean that's that's it any other comments or is anyone out in the hallway that wants to speak do you want it might be useful actually i think so what is being presented by yeah i think i i think that would be helpful ted do you want to come in and summarize what we're proposing what staff is proposing the board this is nothing i just want to say for those who were at the last meeting this is the same proposal as was here at the last meeting we have not changed it but but i know there are many people here who are not at the last meeting so ted's going to summarize the changes that are being proposed at this time do you want to do a quick summary or a quick summary quick summary quick summary okay the chair has spoken sorry all right uh we basically propose changes in three areas the first is definitions we as chris already mentioned we really look to tweak the existing residential zoning regulations instead of make real wholesale changes so we we tweak the definitions of basements attics um and gross floor area as well as the definitions for stories half stories basements and sellers um we also uh i just wonder andrew since there are developers here i think maybe they would like to hear exactly what the changes are that were go ahead okay with the with the changes with the detail yes okay all right so uh getting into the details of our change definitions uh we propose to amend the existing definition of a story uh from um four feet six inches um above or i'm sorry that's right um you know i i uh well i'll start with a basement and seller uh a basement right now um is not determined to be a story if it's less than four feet six inches above the uh average finished grade uh we propose to change that to three feet six inches um and the same thing with a seller so if the seller is uh more than three feet six inches above the finished grade it will be deemed to be a story and in terms of an attic uh right now it's not deemed to be a story uh if its height is less than seven feet three inches uh we propose to change that to come into compliance with the man estate building code to make that seven feet uh and so just let me jump in so those two things are aimed at at reducing the amount of of of far really a gross area of the building well it really addresses um kind of the apparent the apparent height bomb above the finished grade and it's just a it's just a way of around the margins so you don't want to count your basement as as floor area right because you have a limited amount of floor area that you're allowed to build by our zoning code right well floor area is not regulated right now per say it only accounts for the amount of usable open space you have to provide on the lot there's no far requirements or anything like that in existing zoning so it's really and we're not proposing any in these right so it's just aiming at reducing the height yes to help manage the apparent height of some of these frontiers okay and then the other one in the attic is saying that you will be counted as a floor area unless you're lower than seven feet so it's encouraging you to right right now uh under mass state building code you can have a habitable space if it's more than seven feet tall but it won't count as a story uh or be considered in the calculations of a half story if it's under seven feet three inches right so we're bringing the two in conjunction in agreement and to reduce the overall bulk of that top floor in that half story right around the margins um and then finally uh with gross floor area uh right now um we uh there is language in there um in relation to counting attic space uh at seven feet three inches tall we revise that down to seven feet again to bring it into compliance with the mass state building code and uh we also include accessory parking garages in the calculation of gross floor area accessory parking garages means parking garages that are within the main principal home structure not detached parking garages but parking garages that are built generally underground under as part of the basement so that's the definitions section uh moving on from that uh after discussions with the master plan implementation committee and the inspector of buildings um we also propose to increase the amount of gross floor area required for open space usable open space on a lot in our zero r1 and our two zoning districts from the current standard of 30 percent to 40 percent so in other words if you build a 3000 square foot gross floor area house on a lot right now you have to provide 1800 or 30 percent or i'm sorry 900 or 30 percent of that space as what the zoning bylaw defines as usable open space this would go up from 900 to 1200 square feet under that particular hypothetical and then finally um we propose to um in just really to uh preserve um you know efficient drainage and uh safety for ingress and egress to these uh lots or to new homes we propose a maximum uh driveway slope 15 percent uh throughout the uh throughout the driveway um just that's in line with many other communities that have uh driveway standards for residential construction um and again garages that are attached to the principal residential structure will be included in the calculation of gross floor area so those are the three areas that were proposed to change in our scenario i want to point out to people that haven't been part of this discussion to begin with this is not uh attempted wholesale changes in completely restricting development um many of the things that have been suggested are simply to bring what arlington has has done and allows in line with state building code and what some neighboring towns uh allow i speak for myself but i think i speak for the other members of the board as well in that we are very concerned with what people like you have to say we don't want to see people like you stop building you know and we don't want to restrict you from being able to make a living in any way this is simply a way to make sure that the things that are built kind of comply with the existing character of the neighborhoods that they're in um and are there to keep things in line and um preserve the neighborhoods and jive with some of the other people here have requested tonight well i'd love to see like you know halfway like maybe some design input or something you know what i mean but like the changes in the square footage that's gonna that's gonna kill the the you know the new homes right there can you uh clarify that again i'm like well i mean if these amendments pass you won't see any more duplexes from what i understand i think it'll be pretty it'll be pretty much impossible to do i don't see how it would be possible to build you know what we have now if this is if this goes through i think what your concern is the way they look you say they're an eyesore you know what i mean so is there some kind of you know meeting halfway and design changes maybe more of a an older look or something you know what i mean just a suggestion you know teb you want to respond to that uh generally with zoning uh zoning is more concerned with sizing and massing and placement of buildings and a lot it's generally less concerned with aesthetics and the way things look because it's so subjective you know what one person attractive another person might not but you know it's if that is the will of the board that's something we can investigate i don't know if it's practical for us to do but we could certainly take a look i just threw it out there because i'm hearing a lot of people sure you know complaining about the look of the house and i understand you know if every house you don't want every house in town looking the same you know what i mean but i got to say that you know the the building that went on they all look the same you know what i mean all the two family houses they all look the same you know what i mean so you know maybe you put a hip roof on the one and a gable end roof on the other maybe you put a gambrel on one you know what i mean and you've seen that a little bit you know you've seen the designs change just a little bit but you got to understand from the perspective of the developer it's a tested product you know what i mean so just just something to consider you know what i mean that there's a lot of different things you can do with home design you know what i mean something more aesthetically pleasing may be a good common and it might work to the benefit of sure sure yeah what will a new normal look well everyone loved that well everyone no what they do in like Lincoln and Conker you know what i mean you see like a a lot of different you see man sides you see gambrels you know what i mean maybe if you see two-acre zoning what's up two-acre zoning i'm not talking about the zoning i'm talking about the look of the house david you want to talk about the some of the shots that you've done as far as sure so we did take a crack at essentially how large could you build something under current zoning and then how large could you build something under our proposed zoning amendments we have some copies for the audience so these are in very draft format essentially the the first page we have house one and two they're more or less identical from the top plan view the difference in these two being the basement height so it goes from four feet six and number two to three feet six and number one and the open space requirement due to the gfa increase is changed from house number one to house number two so for this if your driveways on the side of your home not underneath the home the changes are essentially in the basement height and the open space required any questions on that i think they have it'll be a one-foot change in building height above grade for the basement you're still not restricted on height and how high you can build the building the height requirement will still be under 35 feet so in the first page there's no drive there's no garage and so the changes that would be affected by having a garage underneath are not shown on the first page at all but on the second page you see the garage underneath scenario right so on the second page uh you're essentially this is a single family home with a center driveway 20 foot curb cut uh the driveway going into the basement here so the difference here being that the front yard setback for the house number three goes back to 36 feet as opposed to 25 which it's currently regulated at due to the driveway slope and on this particular scenario the open space pretty much stays the same on both sites even though the house number three is actually smaller um that's assuming that the site is sloped uh the driveway is slope the site would be it's a slightly level level site the driveway will often be sloped in so to drive down underneath the uh structure into the basement into the basement essentially okay what i'm saying is if this house is in the hill and he's try straight in oh yeah sure that's a that's a different scenario yeah not 35 no no no this is a level level slide sloping driving down level 6 000 square foot right okay by changing the required slope you push back right the front of the house yeah by changing the driveway slope okay uh so any other questions i know in the front in the bottom of that page you see the side of the audience please uh you'll see the size of the structure on the bottom we'll allow time for additional questions so moving on to the third page quite similar to the second page with the um change being that we move the underground driveway slightly to the side to accommodate the the current bylaw has an open space regulation that you have to have 25 feet horizontally in every direction to allow for the open space requirement so by moving the driveway slightly to the right in both of these scenarios your 25 foot what is essentially a circle uh can fit within the front yard setback and so your actual building can go right to the rear yard setback instead of having it be pulled forward by the open space requirement will you count the 10 foot setback here on the open space the 10 foot side yard yeah on the side yard the way they tell me down there that you can't do that now we've shown this to the building inspector and he says that this interpretation is okay so you're still looking at the two garage doors that nobody likes in the front but if you move it back 10 feet it's all right yeah it's it's farther away from the street you want to know a real quick cure for this yeah i build in other towns okay all you got to do is give us a driveway on each side of the house and get we'll get rid of these garages underneath it's a pretty simple process this town is the only town that regulates us to one driveway 20 feet wide the reason we do that is because we can't have a driveway on each side if i put a house in belmont i can put a driveway on each side down i don't want to put the garage underneath but i'm i'm forced to do this by the town's own bylaws what do you mean a driveway on either side just put a driveway in the side in the side you don't want to see a garage in front of the house on any house so would you have no garage or would you have no garage we don't need it that's more work that's more work we don't want to do all you gotta do is you don't need it to sell give us that give us that zoning bylaw that we can put parking on each side of the camp you realize we're forced to do that by this town's zoning without having just one curb cut a curb cut on each side yeah it's a pretty simple thing now now you're talking about your basement square footage okay if you take that away you just reduce the size of this house if you look at number two here see number two has the reduced size house who in their right mind is going to buy that house now you just you totally you're totally killing off all building in this town as anyone knows a period it's done you'll never see anybody building this time is that what you totally want to do you know why would no one buy that house people like bigger houses people want new houses i was discussing this matter with 15-year-old daughter before i came here she said people want to buy new houses jordan wood lives in the biggest house on the biggest lot in this town not true john you have a huge lot when you were my loyal when i was young in this town and you you represented me you made all your money representing guys like me and now you want to stifle everything in this town it's hilarious how many hundred dollars that bill was it's hilarious it's hilarious i'm not saying you shouldn't do some zoning changes okay but you need to work together here you're just totally cutting it off at the knees that's it there's no what some guy who wants to put a dormer on his house can't put it on is that fair this is america is any of this fair like think about these zoning changes that are being proposed it's a total stifling this building as you see it and as for the picking up the trash we are constantly chased by the board of health in the building department i get calls every day on every one of my jobs and i build a lot of houses we do our best to totally pick up and clean up i can't get your name and i'm kind of thank you if you look at the house number one that that's the house you want to build that's a big one yeah we want to build that page first page one number one we want to build that house we don't want to do a driveway we want to just in defense of this process they are trying to discourage the big underground driveway right but where do i put the packing i have to give four packing this is not this isn't a two family this is just a single family but it's all it's all about the two we should do this for the two families so we can show that condition we we will there's no problem if you go over to Belmont water town anywhere else i build a house winchester you're allowed a driveway on each side of the house what why does this time have that strange zoning bylaw i've gone before the board before when i built the house on warren street they denied me warren street's a busy street they should have just given me two driveways but the hand is being forced here i don't see why this is such a big deal why why we can't just work this out in some normal fashion to bed and put a warren out of hope we have to change the right that's what we're trying to do yeah but you understand like he works for me okay his family depends on what i do him and the other 40 people that show up and every job and every house i build including all these real estate brokers you see here get commissions off what i do do you guys care about anything absolutely yeah and we do yeah the whole idea character the neighborhood is to keep to be a great place to live i think two comments that came up one was john outside of normal practice i mean at some point you don't want to build so big that kind of wrecks the neighborhood you suddenly got a beast there but i don't want to move in here i'd rather move over to that other neighborhood where everybody seems to literally i'm on moch street right that's a set that's the first comment then the second was i think it was chris it said bigger than the biggest so i don't think these are aimed at these are aimed at weeks that start to limit that start to try to drive the best design the best building practices the nicest houses you look at some of those things that were put up i mean they're they're not the way i don't think the way the town goes wants to go plus you're not going to lose money on building houses if they're just tweaked to be a little bit different they're not played see they're not boxes these tweaks are going to kill it that's what i was always saying no you're wrong that that's your opinion okay and our opinion is if you look at this from a monetary standpoint most these people you see in this room right now are all about developing like this guy's my electrician right here but if i if i stop building these houses he's out of business but why are any of these because you've just totally i think you have to look at the detail of it rather than making a categorical statement it's all about the size once you increase that green space we're building a small house once you once you add that the basement garage is into the story this is all designed just completely stopped if the numbers don't work the numbers don't work when the basement is included in the total area does that limit the size of the house in the locker absolutely and these two scenarios number one there's no far requirement what limits the size of the house if you put a basement a garage in the basement is the slope of the driveway if we may make it a 15 percent i'm just talking about the three foot six now for the versus the four foot six so that says that if you build below three foot six that area is not counted right why does that why does it matter well if you put the garage there you need about you need at least seven foot six for a garage so it is it is it is getting at the below grade garage okay so that's an issue so is there another way like you're suggesting we i mean the below grade garages is something we're trying to discourage yeah but where do we put the parking you put the parking in the back along the side but you just in a garage you're allowed to have a green you ate up the green space i just want to say right now that we are listening to you we invite you here to the meeting so we have a dialogue discuss this okay we're not trying to shove this down anybody's throat would do anything else okay it's an open discussion and this is not going this is not going as is so so thank you take that as appreciate that as something and we value your your opinions okay and i do have one question for you and i want to ask you is by making these tweaks that we've done here right i see that the biggest tweak right now is the gross floor area for when you have a car the low grade it goes from 6500 square feet to 4800 square feet and goes from 6900 square feet to roughly a little bit on the 5000 square feet and are you building single-family houses right now that 5000 square feet this isn't about single families this is what this example is showing right here okay right but the truth of the matter is they're trying to get us to stop building these duplexes i'm on mod street building a duplex right now like billy said the house is lined with old two families that have fallen down what's so bad about us taking out an old two families putting in how many square feet can you tell us how many square feet yeah i've got a few of them just like so many square feet would it be what what specific make your question will be how many square feet is in the duplex that you're building on mod street it's about of living space of living space yeah and bro he's he's basing this on uh 6600 square feet he's basing it on the outside perimeter of the house we have to sell our houses but what i'm saying is in this example all this green space is based on the on the floor area of the house right and his house is a 6600 square foot house you guys aren't building 6600 square foot houses but there's no line on 6000 square foot lots and i don't care if it's a one zero three family there's no lot that that we're going to build that it's not efficient but you're not building that big anyway it's my point you're telling me you're building a 4500 square feet but that's just an example but but the reason there's so much green here is because the house is so big is what i'm saying right yes yes so you've got about 50 percent more green here because they chose the biggest house they could do on that lot right right okay okay and that's why it is really going to get into the detail though so we are not sure this is the right the best one i'm trying to get out okay i'm saying we're not sure we should take your comment and test it with a two-family house of that size and show what it would mean yes i think that's a very good comment and i think we should try to come back next time because i yeah and see what actually changes there are for this thing here so we vet it for two families that what you asked yeah that they do a two-family yeah absolutely because that's what that's apples and oranges right now okay there's a one comment back back to the duplex since we're on that if you were to have to include the garage space on that i calculated that earlier today it's like 721 square feet so if you'll take if you have to use that it's in the calculation it's part of the living area that's reducing 721 square feet you have above it all right regret your limit it's not because there's no limit there's no limit on the floor area there's a limit on well there's no limit and that's the effect it will have yes that 720 square feet of garage space will affect the amount of open space you have to provide correct yeah yeah the house bigger yeah well it's a try to match that you're going to take it away from living space somewhere on one of the upper floors no well no there's it depends on the size of the lot if you have this is what we show here's yeah yeah this is the minimum lot size in an r1 district that we show in an r2 district is 6,000 square feet so that's what we're showing here that's what we're testing against the one on the front on one and two or six there are lots we are all six thousand square feet and then also i'm listening to what you're saying i want to comment on you saying by making these tweaks it gets rid of dormers that someone want to add to a house can't use the third you just took away the top floor what what what he's saying is one one he's talking about adding on top of houses too if i'm if i'm understanding him correctly if i make we know what i'm saying is the bylaw right now limits your third quarter half story right um but if you see what's being built in a lot of cases it looks like you're building a triple decker looks like and what's you're using inside is two different things how it looks looks important but he just said it's all about the numbers he said you're talking you're not talking about aesthetics you're going by numbers i'm going by massing in the numbers right he's talking about aesthetics oh no i'm talking i'm talking about it how low did the fifty percent that's right the purpose behind this conversation is to adjust scale and the reason that these amendments seem to be proposed is to make sure that houses remain in scale with what's surrounding them and so one thing that confuses me is that it seems you're you're suggesting that people only want to purchase the house the largest house that they can purchase is that necessarily true people don't want to use a certain segment of the market but there is a certain segment of the market for whom that is true but there must also be a segment of the market who wants to buy a house they can afford in a neighborhood filled with smaller scale homes and that's what i think this is a conversation about is it not trying to maintain a certain relative scale so if there's a huge house next to another huge house sure but if you're trying to squeeze a very very large house onto a lot where it just doesn't seem to make sense i think that's what the zoning amendments would address to make sure that the house fits the plot that is built it's a good point we're talking about two different things we're talking about the way things look and then the numbers so it's good to you know differentiate between the two of those that's why i think that there can be some kind of common ground here like what you know what is the main concern what these things look like or how big they're cool you know what i mean well those don't have to be the same thing when you know like like you said this is all subjective it's a matter of opinion whether you like look at a house and size and looks are related but they're not the same so you can build a big gorgeous house and a small ugly house that's going to be all your opinion i think it's these laws are addressing how big a house should be so that that is the issue how big they are i believe that's the only thing that can really be mandated i mean yeah we can talk about building materials and making sure that they are in keeping with a certain style within a neighborhood but i don't think that you can really regulate what the house looks like unless that's well they're saying that they don't like the way the the town is beginning to look that's why you know yeah that's being discussed but i'm not sure that's what's being addressed what we want to live next okay well it would be good to figure out what we are talking about yeah so ten you're these amendments are talking about the size of the house these are addressing the size and the scale of the house yes so period this they're just the size not the aesthetics nobody cares what they look like no we do either it's kind of like you know the first you're thinking of light and air and how it if it seems too bulky before you're talking about a second or materials i think a lot of the garages are going to disappear if you give the two curb cuts if you if you did that for a minute you can do the two curb cuts now you're going to get rid of those two ugly garages so you don't have to move the house back you don't have to have the slope oh to the open space calculation to the open space calculation which has to do with a lot of coverage well it it opens in open space yes would you guys keep it down we're having a discussion over here thank you mr warden so basically what we're saying is those two things the three foot six cellar right and the seven foot in the attic eventually affect the overall open space it helps to affect the amount of open space under our proposals that would have to be so the more space you want to put into the house the more open space and set back so it's trying to say if you're if you're getting really close to to the other houses you have to be lower and smaller and if you're getting what the bigger you want to get you have to have more open space around you right so it's trying to fit the house to the neighborhood right and it's using the metrics of the zoning code right now it's using the device right so it's good that we're having this discussion to make sure these devices are working we think right having worked with the implementation committee and these guys he took a shot David took a shot he threw himself out there to do these diagrams they can they can be tweaked and they can be adjusted to be a little clear we're trying to get at those issues with you know these zoning issues which are a little bit of a it can be a little bit of a blunt instrument but you're trying to do it very incrementally so that it's not a big change make us developers totally out of the picture okay just some regular guy come along you don't want to tear down a house you just want to build your life and meet yourself you dream house you're not doing that oh yeah we are you know you've got your dream house and I don't think so I don't think so I think by taking away what you're saying you just you just stop it you have to seriously think about that like the I think I think you listen to John John's comments one guy's not you know dominating the whole thing and blocking his light and air and so forth you know the character everybody you're going to line it up this big boys everybody wants them you know and I want to argue that nothing gets built within 128 that is not going to sell immediately and I think what we're and I'm sorry to interrupt but I think one thing we're talking about here is not only the visual character of the town but less tangible character of the town when I moved here my neighbors were the dogcatcher a family of electricians and a cab driver and I am now surrounded by white collar tech workers because as we build bigger houses the prices go up that's that's just a fact of life and we have now a very different community and we are shutting people out of this town who cannot afford to come in I grabbed the very bottom rung of the ladder when I bought my house and pretty soon everything was completely unaffordable and I think we have to think about when we build who are we building for it should be for a wider array of people it shouldn't just be for people who could afford 650 thousand dollars for one unit in a duplex and that's low or a one million dollar house that's I don't know those people you know that's that's a really different kind of town that's also in the aggregate going to start raising property taxes for people like John for people like myself to do a thing to the house my taxes went up because of property values but you know when you bought your house it wasn't seen to walk by spy pond it was it was a very different community back well that's a fact you know I have a friend named make holding to get him in here and you could he could talk to you about you know the crime rate in the town that was going on I think that's a little bit I mean that's a little bit outside of what we were saying well I mean you know what it turned around real quick it can go back to where it was this gentleman just to improve people commit more crimes no I'm I'm I'm committing two years ago that's a separate discussion for for another time my name is Steve McKenna I live at Thoroughlin road in Arlington I've been selling real estate here in Arlington for 30 years I think there's a reality here that everybody's trying to achieve and that's mutual respect for your neighbors for the town for putting up the zoning putting up housing and making people feel comfortable the reality is Arlington for the last 30 years has been more affordable more accessible than our surrounding neighbors we're more affordable than the Lexington Winchester and Belmont and Cambridge no matter what's happening with the price we can't control the pricing and stop the market from increasing if that's what the buyers want buyers are now moving into Arlington and staying in Arlington as opposed to decade ago they were leaving Arlington going to different school systems and leaving Arlington because they didn't have the housing that Arlington offers the harsh reality is it would no longer a blue collar community we're no longer a community that has just farmhouses or farming I'm sure 60 or 70 years ago in the down school area was being developed into all these Cape style homes people run up for but that's what the market demanded and that's what the market needed but I'm sure that they all work together in understanding what they had to build there is a demand in Arlington now and a need for housing more so than we've ever seen before in my 30 years this is the fewest amount of homes ever for sale now in reality can some of the houses be better more attractive have their housing they can be but that comes with costs and you're saying you want more affordable housing I see the numbers on a seller's end when they're selling a home on a builder's end when they're building it on the people who are buying the home the buyers would love to have a cheaper home if they could the builders would love to build a cheaper home but they're paying higher numbers now for all the cost of construction no one can deny that and the cost of labor builders and everybody hates the builder but builders are making a lot less money now than they've ever had in the past and no one wants to hear that because they think the builders are making big money the reality is this is a town that's in growth it will be continuing growth because of what people want to do they want to live in Arlington because it's accessible because of the diversity because all the changes are the last 30 years since I've been here that change the bike path came in the restaurants were allowed liquor came in they allowed the zoning change in these are all positive changes the changes doesn't make everybody happy all the time so there has to be a mutual respect and understanding some of the changes that are proposed here as far as zoning to be honest with you I think it's smoking mirrors you're increasing the height of the basement you're lowering the height of the attic you're including the basement garage space is gross floor area so now how does it build a charge that now you're going from a 2400 square foot house potentially in 1900 square foot house but that person's going to pay the same amount of money for a 2400 square foot house of living space but they're not getting 2400 square feet of living space they're getting a lot less square foot because you're now including the garages and living space which means they're going to be taxed on that as living space later on so it's not fair to them so there has to be an understanding I think getting a group like this and getting developers and getting yourself and getting to work together and getting the neighbors so they can be done not everybody's always going to be happy but Arlington has changed and it's going to continue to change because we are always going to be close to every major university every major hospital high-tech and biotech people want to live in Arlington and the sadness is yes people that grew up in Arlington most likely a lot of people can't live here unless they're making the money that everybody else is in the high-tech and biotech area it's a harsh reality of life it's a part of life but this is a town of growth and you think not only in the residential area do you have to look at development you have to look along mass app you have to look at a way to start helping the stores out in the shops okay that's what's going to increase business you can't just be looking at the residential end the residential is a good portion of opportunity here it's a good portion of growth but everybody who's living in Arlington wants to shop in Arlington and they have limitations for doing that so I think it's a mutual respect that everybody has to sit down and work out together there are things to be done but no one's ever going to be happy but to try to create the happiness with everyone that's all I have to say so we're building 2400 foot houses I don't think we'd be here Wendy I saw your hand up in the back and then John yeah I just want to say as I participated in the master plan process it seemed like the um mansionization is the word that I heard concern of people who live in town they're seeing things that are much bigger than what's there and I wish we had some numbers for some of the typical our older Arlington homes in comparison with what the new construction is because I think just looking at those numbers are significantly different the other thing is that it seems to me that the double garage facing the street is a big aesthetic red flag and I don't know whether what's proposed now will really address that perhaps the two curb cuts might be a solution and that's a new idea that came up tonight and I think that even though we're saying we're not talking about aesthetics and we're trying to work with numbers I think that that aesthetic is something that I would really like to see addressed thank you John just one last comment before we all fall asleep we're looking at the attic space but we counted as a floor or we don't count again there's some chicanery going on here because I went through the house that was built next to me when I came up for sale I'm saying gee it's only supposed to be two stories but why have they got a finished staircase going up to the attic all the houses I've ever been involved with the attic space was either a pull down or some other eat egress into it a full flight of stairs finished going up to the third floor don't tell me that's going to be an attic and it's showering over my house thank you may I make one more comment yes one of the things if you're looking at for making suggestions for the zoning in for these two family homes our current zoning for single family homes is 25 foot setbacks 20 foot rear yards 10 foot side backs and yet the same situation with the two family homes she's got these garages in front the situation probably occurred 60 or 70 years ago look a lot of houses throughout Arlington many houses have garages in the back with a long driveway our zoning doesn't allow for that now because you have to worry about the space in the paved area so there's limitations there one of the opportunities is change the zoning go back to where the houses were before 15 20 feet from the street with the garages in the back but whether they're detached or attached or underneath there's opportunities there but you push the houses further back you limit it you're trying to increase the floor area the green space which is good I think you need that and I think your discussion about trees isn't boring you take down a tree you should put up two trees should add and as a real estate agent when we do developments in and out of town we're always telling your developers the greener the better and not the people want and then I'd argue that developers have no wishes we were going to act John if I'm not mistaken you don't have no problem here about that but if you're going to look at it don't tweak it look at the whole zoning because you're pushing the houses back and now he's talking about the adjustments of the side setback and so forth you make the houses smaller but you're still going to end up having an opportunity where the developer has to do what he has to do and you're going to have garage owners there's very few single-family houses with garage owners that you're talking about the slope because of the zoning they're required to do that in order to provide two parking spaces behind the front foundation wall people don't want their whole side yard paved neither does the neighbor a neighbor doesn't want two cars or three cars parked right up against the side of their house so the only way to do that is put in front of the house or down beneath so again you have to look at anything other options instead of just saying we can tweak it here and there thank you thank you all right that's a good point yeah very and and we should get into those those scenarios so we can look at the big picture this is a hilly town too yeah it's tough to make that driveway slope work in reality it only works in certain paths in this town you stifling it again if I build a house on some hilly area I can never make that work it just plain doesn't work on this time we're not a flat community here any other comments discussion comments from the board no I just think this is a good discussion a good input and we should explore these things so we see that you know what we're doing really is covering all the bases for the two-family experiment with what the group deal with the garage and there are other ways to do it as suggested right and that was what we wanted to get from tonight yeah yeah thank you all for coming out speaking out appreciate it input is definitely appreciated and we'll be heated as we get through to the final drafts these potential changes for at least recommendations thank you very much so The board still has items to discuss, so if you're having a discussion, you can take them out to the hallway, please. Still sitting there, I think it's cool. Folks, if you're having side discussions, please take them out to the hallway. Thank you. Thank you folks. Thanks for your testimony. I wanted to tell them that those are issues about the overall masterclass. Yeah, we're going to cover it. Yeah, it's a very good point. Thank you very much for your input. I appreciate it. Yeah, Steve. Yeah, Steve. We're very eloquent. So I know they do, but my point is I think... Guys, please, thank you. There you go. I hope that's up to you. All right. So next we have the approval of the minutes from our last meeting. Ken. Andy. None for me. I'll entertain a motion. I'll motion it to approve the minutes. December 7th. December 7th, 2015. Second. All in favor? All right. All right. Next is correspondence we've received. Laura, I'm going to pass that off to you. So the first one is from two members of the Capital Planning Committee who have stated some concerns about some of the capital expenses upcoming at the Central School in particular. And this is for your review, and they would like to come to our next meeting. What I suggest is that they be on as an agenda. I am early for the next meeting. What I think would be helpful is... It might also be helpful to have Christine Bagnano come in and discuss the Central School overall. Yes. There is an ongoing project to renovate the school. We also have issues with tenants for which the ARB is responsible, and holds leases with them. I think a comprehensive overview of the status as of now makes a lot of sense, then we can figure out how we're going forward and have these folks in discuss their concerns as well. Okay. So you want to report on what's in the Capital Plan, what's happening with the tenants, and nothing has happened with DMH and DBS since our last meeting. Well, no, but I mean, there's empty space. There will be. So that'll need to be addressed. But I think that's something we should have early on in the agenda next time. Okay. The next thing is there's a flyer in your packet about the Housing Production Plan, which is one of the recommendations in the Master Plan was to update our Housing Plan, and we have been working on that. You appointed a committee in August. We hired a consultant in September, and we are working with them right now. The first public meeting is February 2nd, which we will discuss housing needs and opportunities. And the second public meeting will probably be in the spring. It will definitely be sometime in the spring, and we'll roll out some recommendations for comment. So it would be great if you could come to that meeting on February 2nd and hear what people have to say, and perhaps if you have some thoughts, you can add them to the mix. And the third piece of correspondence is something from Christian Klein, who was sitting here in the corner. He is on the zoning board of appeals, and it was something that he had sent to the board in December. That must be right after your meeting in December. So it's dated December 2nd. Wait a minute. December 4th. December 4th. Did I give that to you at the December meeting? No, I just don't think so. Okay, all right. So this is the first time we've seen that. I wasn't sure. That's what's in your package. If it's dated the 4th, you probably didn't get it until the 8th. No action is needed on that. Now if we take these under advisement, does any other comment work with staff to see what can be implemented on the bylaw drafts if need be? Yeah. Perhaps we should go to the next step. What do we want to do to follow up on tonight? Yeah, let's have a discussion. I think we got some unique input this evening. I had hoped we'd get some unique input. Some different viewpoints, which is why I had asked staff to talk with some of the business community and make sure that they were here tonight to see whether we were heading in the right direction but also to see what kind of suggestions they might make. I'm not sure we're quite ready to go forward for town meeting yet after tonight. I don't know why everyone else's thoughts are on that. I just feel like there was a really good comments today. I still think we should, and he also suggested we should vet this out on two family. I think that's a really good idea. There are two things that come to my mind. One is that the master plan was implemented last year. It's very, very important that we don't lose momentum as the master plan implementation committee goes forward and puts things into process. But if we're going to be making zoning changes, they have to be done right, and we really only get one shot at this. Understanding that you can't please all of the people all of the time, it sounds like there's some backlash from the business community as to what we're doing. Some of that I think was, because this is the first time they've heard about it in a lot of senses, but I want to make sure that... It's not even wanting to make sure. They have to be on board with what's being proposed. They have to be on board with what's being changed so that they can feel comfortable, that they can still do business in town. I don't think all of their fears when they come to fruition, someone will still build, development will still happen. The 80-year-old capes are going to fall down. They need to be replaced with things that are more efficient. But I think we can come to the table with something that isn't better fit for the ends that we're trying to achieve along the side of the goals that their day-to-day business needs to... I hope we have an easier time with mixed use in the parking and that those are ready for town meeting. I think this one is actually, at a minimum, I think we might want to introduce it at town meeting as what we're doing. I think one issue is it came right out and we're all used to that and some of these people like Bruce here know what I'm talking about. They lined right up with potentially a little bit of a misunderstanding about what the purpose of this thing is or what the... There's an overall purpose and then there's a lot of minutiae that Ted I think is very aptly put together. But you have to get between those two things. So what's happening is you're devising techniques which I think are very well thought out in order to achieve... to move toward this more compatible house. Call it that. Compatible building. But it's very hard to make the leap. So you've got the reaction tonight. While you're restricting us from making money, we're already on the edge. What are you doing? You're not letting us build. But I don't think that's exactly... That's not our intention. That's not what we heard from the master plan. We have to find a way to... We have to find a way not only to explain it very clearly. I needed a little education each time I hear it that it's not an FAR issue. It's a lot coverage issue which is determined by the overall size of it. Right. It's the amount of open space. That's really what we're getting at. So I think you have... With the garages... Those all have to be explored. But there's a little bit of apples and oranges. A lot of apples and oranges going on in this thing. So he's thinking about two family houses. We're talking about two conditions. One's a flat house. One's a going down under house. When really what we're saying is we're trying to discourage the under garage condition. I wouldn't say specifically to discourage it but to kind of make an account for its impact. Which forces the house potentially into a very complicated... He's talking about two family houses and other folks are talking about single family houses. It's all over the place. I think that's a lot more work. Thinking we'll get there. But if you're saying we're not going to get there fast enough in terms of crafting this thing, explaining it very clearly... I think it's better to have something well crafted and to spend time getting it right rather than rushing quickly with something that might not be optimal. In town meetings we've done this thing where we explain where we're going on a particular issue. This is being worked on. Didn't we do that? Haven't we done that? I don't know if that's true. Progress report as opposed to proposal. I don't read them out at all but we could. I think if we don't... Do you remember doing that Bruce? I think that we talked about the fact that we were undertaking the master plan process. Right. The planning director gave a report as to where we were in that process to explain why we weren't coming forward with a big slate of warrant articles. Among the things that the implementation committee has been recommending based on the town's vote are these things. Two of them are coming up as warrant articles and we think are ready. Another one is being contemplated or working. Something like that. I don't think we need to pull everything off the table entirely. But I think some of the more detailed items still... I'm just talking about this institution thing. Where we get there? I think we'll find out on February 1st whether I'm right. I think we are close on the mixed use aspects of things. Presenting that is another ball of wax. But the bylaws, the drafts that are out there I think are there. I think that if you look at the community perspective the mixed use has the potential to seem like a big concern from the sort of people who are supporting the residential change and vice versa. The mixed use may give the development community something that they're looking for. So I guess I would just not to say it's determinative but just to encourage you to think about it. Do they make sense of something that gets paired because there's a little bit of something for everyone? Obviously they can proceed separately and there's no reason they couldn't and they have merit on their own but just in terms of thinking critically about how to get a pass. I mean they'll be separate warrant articles so they can one-to-one pass and one-to-not pass. The mixed use in parking could be perceived as pro-development. Correct. Very easily. Very, yeah. Right? They're bigger? No, exactly. That could be big pro-development. It's the type of development that people want. But they say they want. It's in there. Right. You're getting one, if you're pro-development, maybe you're sort of, I don't want to say anti-development but pro-contextuality or whatever it is. But it's also, I mean it's different kinds of development but it's also different kinds of developers that do that. Totally different. Two different developers. You're not getting, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well, we know you don't really know who's going to do the mixed use development because they don't. Because it hasn't happened yet.  So it's like, there is this aspect of like, it's just change is change and they don't, I mean, I don't necessarily think that they totally understand their market. They're building the biggest thing they can build. I bought my house because of what was, it was what was available, not because it was like the thing I wanted to buy. They're not, they're not building custom houses. They're not going out to market and saying, this is what I want. They're saying, this is, you know, I can build this and people buy it. That doesn't mean it's what, that nothing else would ever get bought or get built.  It's really good and we do. And I think it's interesting also, we heard at one point someone saying, that design, that scale, that's been tested. So they know that works, right? And then if you're, have to change that up, now you're introducing certainty and they don't know if that's going to work. It might. It might. And so you may see, you may see some sort of chilling effect where development slows for a year or two. As developers recalibrate. Figure out what can I do. Right. And just speaking about the garage issue, I have heard from several realtors that people willing to pay Arlington prices for new homes and walk garages, they don't want to have to park on the side and shovel their cars out or whatnot. They want a garage vehicle that they can get in and out of every morning. They're going to pay the perceived premium for living in Arlington as opposed to framing him or points outside of Route 128. So. Yeah. These guys can have garages, right? Yes. This could have a garage or is that the maxed out number one? Well, that's. That's the ground area. Right. That's a garage. No, no, that's that's. No, it is, but could it be? It is a lot of technicalities there. You might be able to fit a garage there if you reduce the size of the house. Why? Because of the overall green and tan. It has to do with how far you can build in the setback. Right. Right. And then it gets into other issues. So there's a lot of technicalities. So I can't. I think testing these garages is key. Based on input. I personally, from a personal point of view, I like garages that are attached to the principal home, but you have the sign entrance. Right. There's a number of those in my neighborhood. They're very attractive and they meet the needs of the homeowner and they meet the needs of the neighborhood and I'm front and center on the front of the facade. And I've looked at ways of kind of promoting those there. It's hard. It's a hard thing to do with zoning to try to. I found that. I looked under those studies way back when I used to practice. Yeah. It's much harder to do with a 6000 square foot lot. Right. Okay. It's nearly impossible almost because of setbacks and everything else. Right. And the easiest thing to do is if you want a garage and have it detached in the back with its five foot setbacks and stuff like that. And that is the best to accommodate a house that fits reasonably within the lot size and have enough open space and have a garage. I just did that. I don't know. Maybe. Like every garage is getting bigger too as cars are getting bigger. Yeah. Although eventually when you have the self-driving car in your garage and you're really small it will just. Pull up by themselves. Yeah. I think the other thing I'll say from the master plan implementation perspective I think is that although on the one hand you want to see the momentum continue and want to see things pass and the proposals that comes out of the master plan dies in a public way as opposed to just deciding to pull it off the table and see if we can make it better for next year. That's obviously not a good outcome. So I think strategically there's a we'd rather live to fight another day than sort of push, push, push. And spend time developing a much more volume. Yeah, you're right. Whoever said that you get one shot at some of these and then you're not going to talk about it for another five or ten minutes. Yeah, I think this is one of the ones. It's a big one and I think it needs to be done but it's one shot. So what I'm thinking is if we don't put forward a proposal that probably the other group will put something forward it then has to go through this group and will be the subject of the public hearing because any zoning that's proposed for the warrant goes through the redevelopment board. So then what will end up happening is that we will end up having hearing on their proposal. And then we can say yes or no. Will you recommend a favor or no action on their proposal? I think that they are primed to put something in. But maybe that's not a bad outcome but that's what I would foresee happening. Well, it sounds like their proposal would be much more radical, right? It's not crazy radical, but yes. But more than what? It's not over the top. It's more form-based the way they are. Whereas you're trying to be very strategic in... Correct. So what I wanted to do at the beginning of the meeting was to see if we could reconcile their ideas. Some of them I think could be adapted and organized. Some of their ideas I thought could be. Well, one thing I really want to tease out by talking to brokers as well as some of the developers is the two-curb-cut idea. Or even in Waltham, for example, even a single-family home, you're allowed to have either two 10-foot-curb-cuts or one 20-foot-curb-cut. So I'd like to explore that a little further and see how viable that is, because Mr. McKenna seemed to indicate that for some developments, neighbors might not like having two sets of cars on either side, either side guards. That might cause more of an impact than having garage space or something like that. They have everything with the required setbacks. It might be okay. And it does away with one of the main problems we've been looking at, which is the sloped garage with the giant-curb-cut. And I think if we can get rid of that and get rid of the huge street-facing garage, then... So strategically, if we're going along, as you say, Laura, then we would be working on it and have some comments that say, we're not ready to those amendments that are being proposed. So we have to vote for no action. See, do we keep working? But I'm supposing, hypothetically. It's not hypothetical, because before January 31st, we have to put something in. Well, if it's not hypothetical, because we don't do anything, we will. I'm saying that we get to that point. We're still working on it. And our point is there's some real concerns about how this really plays out. Because I don't want to, to your point, I also don't want to see it get killed by anybody. See, if they propose... No, that's just bad. You're right. If it doesn't come from us and it comes from someone else and dies, then you write that it's even worse, even we can go and we can give a report and we can say that this is something that's being worked on and we recommend no action on this by-law amendment. But they'll come in under us anyway, bring it in. But then it's not our proposal. I don't think it matters. Do you think the issue would be poison in the line? I think the issue would be, yeah. Or it would be, well, I'm supposed to tell meeting passes that it is the will of the people, it would be more restrictive than what we want to see and it won't necessarily take into consideration all of the other options out there. I think there's... I guess just to answer a minute ago about trying to sort of bring the two together, I'm wondering if there would make sense to try to get... There's a subcommittee, the implementation committee that's been working on the residential issues to get that group together, to be with either some group of the redevelopment board in the next... in the relatively near future and just kind of figure out, okay, do we think we can come up with something that's at least worth trying to push forward that tries to get the two together and take into account the feedback that was received tonight and try to come up with something that can be, I guess, a little bit... The Part 7 public hearing is kind of the critical deadline for that whenever they'll leave in from the way our reaction is or is that... Do you think that's just not feasible to get that amount of work done in the next whatever month and a half? What do you think, Tim? I think it's worth working with the housing subcommittee of the master plan implementation committee to talk with representatives of both sides that we heard tonight and see if there is some sort of middle ground that could work to kind of modify our existing proposal that I have and kind of bring all the input we've received into that and just bring something forward. I don't know about the chances of that being successful but I think it's worth a try and I think the master plan implementation committee is... I think I'm wrong. I think it's a decent body to try to pursue that. I just... I think there aren't any solutions that everyone is going to like. I think it's not that we haven't been thinking about this. We really started doing this in September. I have looked at a lot of different times. And we've talked about this four to three times already. This is the third fourth, yeah. I just don't know. If it was easy, we would have done it already. No, it's not easy. I'm reticent to kick the can down for another year but it has to be done correctly and I don't want to throw something out there that comes from this board that is going to alienate a very significant portion of the community that we have to think about. One other thought I have is what I've worked on right now, we could look at that to R01 districts which don't include two families and then we can take a look at the R2 district which includes one and two families and possibly do a separate set of proposals for that. One thing we can talk about later but it may make sense to do separate proposals for those. That's where we would be at a time as far as how meeting goes. How complete do we have to be by January 31st? We don't have to be complete. We can put in a general word so we won't meet again until after that's it. My recommendation tonight is to put in a general word for all the things that we have intended to do and then we can always take it off the table after the fact or it would force us potentially to make a final decision put something in front of town meeting that we think fits best. We won't get to a point where everyone is happy but that's kind of the basis of the compromise anyway. Right, so the real final decision point is March 7th. So if you want, I mean at first I thought you were saying it's not even ready to go on the march. No, no, no. If you want to put something general we can do that and that buys us a little bit more time. Yeah, I think strategically that would be wise. I think so too. And give a chance now to this process maybe. I think we're close. I don't know that we'll get there by March 7th. I think we're much closer on the single families. The two families, the duplexes might seriously be worth considering as their own distinct class in the R2s and R3s. Yeah, I think if you did what you suggested a minute ago it gives you some time to think through those impacts more and also it will only be a year but potentially to sort of see and practice what actually occurs if the R1 passes what is the impact and there's more time to look at that and decide okay, is this something to translate? How big is R3? It's very small. Very few R3s. It's R2. So we shouldn't let that wag the tail. No, but R2 is it. We really just love it to R2. All the two families in East Arlington my neighborhood up here has R2. There's two families throughout Arlington. So can you help? Let's really map this out because we don't have a lot of weeks and we just lost a week. We thought we could meet on the 25th and now we cannot. So next week is a holiday. The 25th is a special time meeting. Then we're talking about February 1st already unless we get off Monday. There's a special 10 meeting that has to do with the school budget. Okay. So what about the implementation committee and the housing committee? Okay. Then we had, we had said another, or no, we sort of punted on setting the next meeting and we weren't sure if we should meet before or after the 7th. But then the subcommittee could meet. I mean we've met, you know, first thing in the morning, whatever. You guys take a shot at it now, based on this input? Well, I mean, I think we should, we can propose something to the master plan implementation committee, the housing subcommittee. And would it be worth inviting representative of the citizens and representative of the builders to that committee meeting? I don't know. I think initially it would be good. I think we should, my suggestion would be to have a meeting of a group. We can talk through the feedback that was said here. We can talk through the sort of sense of the ARB in terms of how you think it makes sense to move forward because that's obviously really critical to what we recommend. And then I think from there, it would make sense to do some further outreach to the builder community, to the other group, whatever, or other people, or to more realtors or what have you. Because I think that sort of, figuring out a way to truth test the sort of statement that this will just put the kibosh on everything I think would be useful on it. That's a tough one. Because like Bruce said, I think it's the test, a lot of it comes down to the tested product versus the untested product. So it's not that the untested product might not work, but you just don't know until you try. But like I said earlier, they usually get pretty creative. The smaller margins there, the more risk averse to try something that's untested and uncharted to some extent. Yeah, I mean, but on the flip side, any zoning, you know, it's like we could be Houston, but... So are you suggesting we be shifting our meeting off a Monday to another day to accommodate this thing here? That's a possibility, yeah. What's the process? You meet with the implementation committee? Yes. Then we meet again before... No, I think we'll have the implementation committee and at least someone, I mean, here's the thing. If we don't, we could do it if one of you wanted to meet with the implementation committee. Actually, you're on the other question. But if we wanted more, then it becomes a public meeting. Good, is that good? So, and then it probably should be in the evening too. Yeah. Joey. Some concern about, you know, this Winnell Evans group submitting their own warrant articles with or without the ARB submitting warrant articles on the same kind of material. But if it doesn't, are you going to compromise me? Maybe we should talk to the group she represents. Well, I think that's the idea. Well, that's the idea. Thinking of doing it. Yeah. We're trying to get to some of the things that are out there. Or someone from that group. And then someone from the building community in a realtor. At all at the same time. You think that they could agree on something? I think it's worth trying to attempt. I think it has to happen. I think it's important that Winnell's group in particular realizes it shouldn't look like the two are fighting. It shouldn't, that is to say, the ARB and her group even. And that's what we're discussing. As far as getting members of those distinct groups together with the master plan implementation committee to try to put something together that the board feels comfortable putting forth as a unified idea. I think they may still have some ideas that go further than some of the things that we're willing to ask town meeting to do. But I think the bigger items that have been discussed we're not very far off from where they are. I think there's some compromise to be made there. Good compromise that I think we both would be happy to put in front of town meeting and look like there's some, there's really been some discussion there and some back and forth. The difficulty is getting the business community to make sure that they're comfortable with what's happening. And that's something that concerns me. If I'm alone on that, then let me know. What we heard tonight is a meeting to coalesce what we heard tonight and that which should have with the master plan implementation and them and the residents and that group. Then try to address the two family because we didn't really address it. Talk about it in that figure out a strategy then test it with the builders. Well, maybe we should just remove the two family from discussion because that is a very tall order to come up. That's the entire R2 district then. So you're only operating on the R1 district and R0, yeah. Which isn't as big a concern because the labs are so big. If we're going to separate them we know that we could do both in the time frame. But I think that might work if we can put forth some other ideas to alleviate the concerns that we're seeing with R2s. Size is a major issue. Design is a major issue. No one is purporting to address the design issue at all. But if we can look at things like the driveways, that takes out the garage issue which has been a huge problem that could we get there? Should we fix it? You can have two driveways by special permit now. What I heard John Carney say was that the ZVA doesn't like to grant that. But that is allowed with a special permit. So we don't really need to change the zoning to allow that. Maybe we can talk to the ZVA about it. I don't know. But you could change the zoning or the standard to allow for two. You could change it from a special permit to a driveway. So we should look and see how many of those have been granted? Nine. We review all the ZVA cases. And we have not had many. Maybe in discussions between the builder and the ZVA, they were discouraged. But I cannot say we've got many cases for a second driveway. What I heard in the side discussion that went on over here between John and Chris Klein was on the ZVA is that in Christian Klein's time on the ZVA, he hasn't seen one at all. What John Carney said was that he brought one up about eight years ago and was denied and hasn't tried since because of that. But it sounds like and again, it's one person's testimony but it sounds like giving that option that the towns do do and do allow would take away a lot of the aesthetic problems that people have with some of these two families. And... Is it a good idea? I mean, you're going to get paired driveways on each lock. I would not even have thought of the house. Driveway, driveway house. That's something I've been taking away from the history part of it. And he's not the same thing if you look at the street. Driveway. That's right. So it would be 10, 10 house, 10, 10 house. So still the same. Which is what we look at. So really what's worse it's in the eye of the beholder but still they both have substantial impacts. Yeah, I think there's an argument you made on the transportation side that even though the total length that you wind up with these multiple more frequent opportunities to get back into also from a I mean this can be addressed with design standards. No, nice. You wind up with like if the driveways aren't designed properly it's one yet another. It's two sets of ramps to navigate which can be challenging for people with mobility problems or like I said if it's icy just for anybody who's trying to walk down the street. But again, I think that is you can be addressed with design standards. I'd like to see how it works in these other communities just to literally look at the model. For two families. The other thing I would say the 15% slope on the driveway to me that's purely from a pedestrian stage perspective that's pretty important. So leaving aside the impact it has on the size of the house I think that would be a good standard to have. Well just in terms of efficient drainage the greater than 15% slope you have a lot of sheeting there's other knock on effects too. People backing out of those up onto the sidewalk and they can't see anything. There are some very steep driveways that we've seen that really go right down. I realize it would have an impact. Any other reasons? One more issue about counting the parking as an FAR for square footage gross square footage in the basement. How is the tax based done? Well I believe the assessors they look at livable area and then there's a factor for mechanical space. I don't know the exact vagaries of how they would calculate garage area included in gross floor area. I know they break out gross floor area in the finished area. I don't know if they would consider an attached basement garage as finished or not. We'd have to talk to the assessors about that. Because that would be a major bump just right across I don't know. In the value that they would cost the values to go up? The value of the house is the value of the house. The assessors value? The assessors value is for the taxes. If they say that now we're counting livable space because that's what you're doing, right? Well no, we're just counting this gross floor area. There's gross floor area and there's livable or finished what they call finished square footage. So they're different. So is the taxes based off of? I believe the tax is based on the amount of finished square footage. That's really important because if that were to occur that would affect everybody. The assessors can't say it's an existing non-conforming use. They would just say no, now this counts differently for everybody. Everybody's tax pool would go up if they have a garage. So I think making sure that's not going to be an intended consequence is very important. So we'll leave it to staff to put together. Working group by when? Like when? Do we want to try to do this in the next two weeks on the night other than Monday? Or do you want to bump it off until February? Can we? Well we can do it as a working group with a residential working group with the master plan implementation committee. One of us can attend or we can nominate Mike to his hands. Somebody who was at this meeting should be I want to be there if I can. You or I or both of us. You know what? The only difference to us is that we have to advertise the meeting two days ahead if more than one of you goes we have to advertise it. That's not a problem. Unless I'm shorter than three foot six in that case. We'll treat it as an Airbnb meeting. There's no reason why you can't have an Airbnb meeting as long as you advertise it. So if two of us come it's got to be advertised. That's okay. We'd rather have the input and do that. So let's do that soon with an idea of actually discussing it at the February 1st. We've just been scheduling meetings with like my doodle. Do you like the 8 o'clock in the morning time? Did that work for you? No I like that six o'clock. Six o'clock on Thursday? Yeah. Six p.m. You just go in, you get it, then you have your dinner after. I mean it limits it. I don't know, what do you think about that time? I mean, six o'clock in the mornin