Let's go back to the discussion of the person can follow the Qur'an clearly and categorically for an Al-A'lim and that's what many people do, they follow the goal of the Al-A'lim as an understanding, but the delil is what they're following. So in other words, Malik gives the delil for this issue. Malik gives the delil? Yeah. And for example, Why can't it both be right? We have the Sunnah for that. Two opposites. Yes. Do you know what Mansukh is? They're advocated. The advocated shows acting upon it and can't be acted upon it. Okay, so the Prophet said when he sent the companions in the Battle of Ahzab. No, just this one. How can we take both opinions? One is saying that Hadith is abrogated. Hadith is gone. We can't act upon it. Another one says no. The Hadith is muhakam. It's not abrogated. We can't act upon it. They're two opposites. How can you be there two views together? With the example of the Prophet said the companions in the Battle of Ahzab. When he said, And the companions were on the journey. And the time was coming in. And some of them thought, I think we should pray now. But there was one view that was right. No, because they went back to the Prophet. And he said, you're both right. The Prophet SAW, when they both came back to him. Yes. He did not scold any one of them. Yes. He didn't tell them any one of them. Okay. Both of them left with rewards. One got two and one got a right one. Which one was right? The one that was right was the one who prayed the Salah when he came in. According to you. Because the Salah is a legislation from Allah. But did the Prophet SAW say that at the time? You were wrong and you were right. Did he say that? Yes. Slowly. Let's take this step. Go on. Let's take this point. Slowly. There's something called Ijtihad. Okay. Meaning, which the scholars, when they look at it, all of the Adilla are pull and push. It's not khala. There are misa'il which are Ijtihadiyah. No one can belittle the other person for holding it. For example, when we go down in the Salah, we put our knees down on our hands first. For example, it's an Ijtihadiyah. Ijtihad means both parties have solid evidences. The concept is how do we understand this? And evidences are qabilah. It's open for dissonance. Niqab is it wajib. It's open for dissonance. Okay. There are many issues like that. We see people discussing back and forth. It's open for all parties. Okay. People make it big who are about it. But it's really open for both parties. The hadith where the prophet sallallahu alayhi sallam yusalliyah that none of you should pray except in alayhi sallam alayhi sallam. That hadith, the truth is only one. Not everything tells if the truth can be two or three or four. It can't be truth. Both parties are now sitting down to understand from this hadith what the prophet meant. Yeah. A group of them stuck to the word. Okay. And a group of them took a mafum from it. Which is that the prophet, when he said, don't pray except in Banu Quraib. He meant hasten. Get there fast. Make sure athil reaches you in Banu Quraibah. Okay. So it was istiujal. He was hasten. The prophet can't delay sallallahu alayhi sallam. He's not a musharri. He's not a legislator. Alayhi sallallahu alayhi sallam.  It sits. Hmm. When the prophet said that he meant get there fast. Okay. That party is correct. The party who understood it as to mean, you know, the prophet told us not to pray even if the sallallahu alayhi sallam comes in. Until we get to Banu Quraibah, their understanding was incorrect. But that being said, they got to that conclusion based on their each tihad. Okay. I already told you, the prophet said, Okay. Okay. Let's break it down. The issue of praying sallallahu alayhi sallam on time, is that a messa'ala that is hd hadiyah? Which one? Praying the sallallahu alayhi sallam on time. That's clear cut. There is no dispute on that. You have to pray sallallahu alayhi sallam on time. Yeah. Okay. So that's not an hd hadiyah issue. Okay. It becomes an hd hadiyah issue because they have a statement from the prophet sallallahu alayhi sallam which they try and implement these companions at the time. Correct. That's my point with all of these madahib that you say this one's wrong and this one's right and this one's wrong. They've all got delil on their side. No. They do. So not all of the sallallahu alayhi sallam The statement of the prophet sallallahu alayhi sallam is a delil, right? Yeah. But there are issues which are hd hadiyah amongst the madahibs. You're right. I'm not going to deny that. Okay. There are issues which are hd hadiyah. Masa'il which are hd hadiyah. Yes. No. I'm not denying it. Okay. It's how you look at it, to be honest. Yeah. But I still hold an opinion and I'm willing to have a discussion with the other person. Okay. But when I get up from that discussion with that brother who's a Hanafi, for example, and he believes that and he's doing hd hadiyah and he's the hd hadiyah of his madahib is on this and my hd hadiyah on this issue is this. We get up and there's no hatred or animosity between us because it's a matter of hd hadiyah. But there are issues which are haqan baltil even if your imam said it. Okay. Some issues are haq they're khilafiyah but they're hd hadiyah. Okay. I see. There's a difference. But it's not valid. There's a right or wrong. Okay. There's a what? There's a right or wrong. One is right and one is? One is wrong. The issue of the willy, for example, the guardian of the woman we say Abu-Halifah aqta is wrong. He's going to live with the reward. He's going to live with the reward and the prophet said anyone who follows him after the evidence comes to him he's a sinner. When an usurs is read to you and the views ad-Dillah is read on you you can't still stick to al-Imiyam Abu-Halifah. It's not permissible for you now because you have an usurs click from the Quran and the sunnah in which it says to you here here you can't say our madhhab believes this our view is this this is what ta'a this is the ta'asubah and Abu-Halifah never had any Quran Sunnah on his side. I'm not saying he didn't. He did it, right? On this issue. I'm saying to you I'm saying to you is that what your statement is going to allude to is that al-Imam Abu-Halifah every single situation this is their argument and this is what implies that he can't do a mistake that's what you're implying now by saying al-Imam, you're telling me this hadith al-Imam Abu-Halifah didn't know? Yeah, what I'm implying is that the madhhab the Imam is the madhhahib I just said to you al-Imam Abu-Halifah may he's not memorised all the hadiths neither has Imam Sha'fi or Ahmad or Maddi but they brought out a hadith or they brought out a delil that al-Imam Abu-Halifah didn't What if he knew about that delil but he didn't accept it as a delil maybe he's a weak hadith to him He's old student they said al-Qadi Abu-Yusuf Yeah they said in some of the words he disagreed with him in all of the views al-Imam Abu-Halifah he'll accept a handful of them I don't know the number Okay He's old student Yeah Muhammad al-Hassan al-Shay'iban when he debated the al-Imam al-Shafi'ah and he came to the conclusion on some issues and he repented from it or he took back some views he said, I swear if my sahib al-Imam al-Shafi'ah Abu-Halifah was alive I swear he would have taken the opinion the way I took I'm taking it now It just comes back to my scholar said this your scholar said that No, it's not I'm saying to you the default position many people are getting wrong is that they're looking at the scholar as though he's infallible from the big and get go it's the in implication are you open minded to accept that al-Imam Abu-Halifah al-Malik al-Shafi'ah al-Ahmed can all do mistakes first of all do you accept that Okay No, yes or no I have to explain it I have to explain the answer No, the simple question is al-Imam Abu-Halifah Malik al-Shafi'ah al-Ahmed are they infallible We agree that at the start that they're not infallible so they are open to mistakes We agree that at the start Okay Okay So you're saying that Let's go through the process Okay, so they can do mistakes They can do mistakes So can, by the way the scholars Ibn Taymiyyah Shafi'ah Everyone can Everybody can Now it brings us to the argument Okay We don't get offensive Agreed Now Let's get to the argument Okay Second point, I come to you with this Okay Now that you've accepted that all of these ulama you khadumil qawlihi wa yurat he stated we can either be taken or Rejected Rejected Alhamdulillah Let's look at the arguments now Okay Who are you to say that this argument is wrong I'm not going to Who is Ibn Taymiyyah No, I'm not going to Ibn Taymiyyah We're going to look at the four Imams themselves Okay Are you happy with the four Imams Yeah, yeah, let's do that Okay Take the issue of Imam Abu Hanifa where he came to the issue of the woman marrying herself off Okay Imam Abu Hanifa said if a woman goes to a shop and she buys and she sells would that transaction be accepted? I'm asking a question Repeat the question A woman goes and she goes to a shop She's buying and she's selling something She's got a watch She's got something she wants to sell Can she do it? Abu Hanifa said No, I'm asking you Yes, she can Abu Hanifa said she can Okay She can Yeah, which we of course a woman can buy and sell when she wants There's nothing wrong with that Abu Hanifa said if she can sell and she can buy things why can't she give herself out Okay Okay She's made Qiyas Which is valid from Quran Sunnah Qiyas Okay, beautiful, right? Okay, it's valid It's valid He's got a Qiyas here Okay, carry on Okay, put that side for me Okay On the other hand bringing the Hadith of the Prophet SAW What if he says that Khalid is weak? No, let me step by step We're going to go back and forth to each discussion We're going to go back and forth Who from now at this point before we go into the authentication or we're going to come to that who at this moment is right as we're discussing the issue Okay, my question is No, stop I'm asking you I'm not answering the question Can they both be right? No, they can't Okay, I want to No, I'm asking you a question Yeah Abu Hanifa used Qiyas Yes These scholars have used a Hadith You haven't looked into the grading You're going to now I'm going to change your But at this moment Yeah Who's right? I can't say it Because if I look into the grading I say this is a weak Hadith No, you're going to change We're going to change again We're going to say Abu Hanifa came back and he responded You can't leave Hadith unrestricted No, look, I'm saying to you One person used a Hadith And another person used a what? Qiyas Yes The Hadith could be fabricated We're going to come to it In the second phase I want us to come to it I want to step by step Okay The scholars, they say This is what I'm trying to say to you The scholars, they say There's no each Tihad when there's a Nass Okay Abu Hanifa You gave a Qiyas I'm a Fimultin in Nass At a time when the Nass has been provided If Nahr came If Nahr came If the ocean If Nahr was a man who had a little well Had a little well He used to charge the people He used to put the bucket in there for them Get the water out And he would give the water to the people And he would charge them He would give me money Maybe because he put a little motor An engine there to get the water out Okay, so he charges the people He's allowed to do that, right? So one day Allah says It's not a rain The rain, it gushes Everybody's now got water Are they going to come to the water of There's no need There's no need Allah's river is there, right? Allah has had the Hadith of the Prophet So it's here now The goal of Al-Imam Abu Hanifa now is gone Finished Abu Hanifa came back This is how we look at their discussion Abu Hanifa came and said Hadith is life Okay We're going to be like to the party Sorry, Abu Hanifa's right You guys are without nothing And he's without nothing He hasn't got nothing He's got nothing The Qiyas is not Because they brought Hadith No, but he said the Hadith Oh, sorry We're still at the stage where they've got Hadith I thought he came back and said The Hadith is weak The Hadith falls away So Abu Hanifa has got Qiyas, right? Yeah, which is better than nothing So he weakened the Hadith So Abu Hanifa now has got something He's got Qiyas So he's now stronger They come back and they say Okay, we've got an ayah from the Qur'an Abu Hanifa said half of the Qur'an Half of the Qur'an It's not necessary that it's done But Oh, come on Are you telling me that every single Ayah in the Qur'an And Imam al-Shafiq was asked Where's the Ijma'ah in the Qur'an? He went home Half of the Qur'an He scratched his head And went back and finished the Qur'an Three times Okay, what's the I? Let me finish And then he came to the ayah And didn't tell anyone So I just went back and forth He got the Ijma'ah from Imam al-Shafiq Why couldn't he see it in the first time When he read it The second time he couldn't even see it The third time he saw That this ayah is a delir for Ijma'ah Not only just that Not only just that Is Abu Hanifa more Ah fahd Than Asman Maafan Afan. No, he's not. Uthmaradiyal Ainu, at his time, Abdel Ibn Abdul Bar mentioned in his Kitabat-e-Ameed, a woman gave birth at six months. She gave birth to a child at six months. Ali sent a father, the man who married her, the man after six months of being married to her, she gave birth. He said, how is our marriage only being for six months? You're giving birth. You got this child from somewhere else. It's wedlocked. This is not my child. He would be heard to the catechute and they looked into her situation and it became a problem. Ali bin Tari bin sent a letter to Uthman, radiallahu ta'ala, and he said, Uthman. Sometimes it's been transmitted as Umar, but this was authentically Uthman. He sent a letter to Uthman and he said, Uthman, this woman is right, she can give birth at six months. Hey, where? In the Quran, where? Uthman is half of, he's the one who compiled the Quran with his Qiraat and everything, his Ahruf and everything. How? He said, the ayah, wa ala qauluhu ta'ala, wa wasayna l-isana bi walideh, hamalatu ummu, quran wa wadaatu quran, wa hamluhu wa fisaaluhu tathuna shahra, hatta idha balaga shuddha wa balaga arba'ina sanatana, ila akhid al-ayah. Allah says, wa hamluhu wa fisaaluhu tathuna shahra, the pregnancy and the breastfeeding 30 months. Subtract 24 months from, which is two years of the breastfeeding, as Allah said, wa l-walidati urdu'ina ulada hunna halini ka'alini. You get six left. We're only left to six months, right? Yeah. It's called the Dalala to l-iqtidaa. It's a way of extracting evidences from the Quran and the sunnah. It's called the Dalala to l-iqtidaa. Okay. Why do you not see that? Okay. What I'm trying to say to you is that, no, I remember before I said, ma yuridil lahubi khairan yufaqihu fiddin, inna ma anaa qasimun wa allahu yu'tiin. The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, anyone who Allah wants khair for them, he gives them the fiqh of the religion. Wa allahu, allahu azzaw wa jalla. Is what? The Prophet said, inna ma anaa qasimun. I distribute the knowledge. Wa allahu yu'tiin, some, Allah gives each one. The scholars, they said, the knowledge is for the people, the way that risk is written for them. Okay. So it could happen that, Imam Abu Hanifa can't see us. I still want to follow this through then. So now we have a situation. So Imam Abu Hanifa, Rahimahullahu ta'ala, he got responded to with an evidence from the Quran. Okay, which is? Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala, in Surah al-Baqarah, he mentions the story of Ma'qal ibn Yasar al-Muzani. Allah says, This I came down on Ma'qal ibn Yasar al-Muzani. Ma'qal had a sister. He married his sister off to a man. Pay attention to this, to a man, his sister. He married his sister off to a man. And the man divorced her in a very despicable way, he didn't like it, the way he treated his sister. So what happened was, the Ida finished. Because I said, The woman's timing finished. Her Ida finished. He had three cycles, whether it be Mahayyid or Tohorin, we're not gonna strengthen which opinion is which. He could have taken her back. He had a chance, he had a window of taking her back. He didn't. He let that time fly by. Then what happened was, the men found out Ma'qal ibn Yasari's sister is available, she's looking to get married. And then he went into the line and said, I'm back. Of course, she loves her ex-husband. She prefers him over any other man. Her heart was for him. She wants him. So she said to her brother Ma'qal, my ex-husband is back, I want him. He said, Well, I'm not gonna marry you off to him. Abedan, the man who treated you the way he treated you. And he acted the way you acted. Now that he's found out that other men are coming to you, Ha, he wants to come into the, he had opportunity. Allah, he said in the ayah, when if you divorce the women and they're gonna finish it, do not prevent them from, don't prevent these women that are under your guardianship to marry. Why is Allah telling Ma'qal ibn Yasari, don't prevent them? She could just go and get married herself. Okay, why the Sababun Nusul? How did it reach us? How did the reason for revelation reach us? It's authenticity. What if he knew about it and he just didn't believe in it? But the ayah, forget the Sababun Nusul. Even forget the Sababun Nusul. Okay, what is it? The ayah says, leave the reason for revelation. Allah says, فَلَا تَعضُلُهُنَّا Guardians, don't prevent the women from getting married. Jameel which shows that they should be able to get married themselves without a wedding. No, no, it's ain't. Guardians, don't prevent the women from getting married. Don't, a man comes up for her. No, no, that's the sababun Nusul. We said we'll leave that. The ayah didn't say, for her to marry themselves off. He didn't say that. It says, don't prevent guardians. فَلَا تَعضُلُهُنَّا You, well, these don't prevent them. It doesn't. If the women, it's the ayah's clear. The ayah says, if the women, this is my point, this ayah's clearly saying if the woman wants to go and marry a man, don't stop her marrying this man. Why would, okay, look. That's on his side. It's not on this. Okay, okay, don't stop them. Okay. Yeah. Okay, let's say that's even his own partage. Why would Allah talk to the men when the women could just go and get married? Why did she even need his consent? Because maybe at that time people believe that the woman can't get married because they have this hadith, which is da'if. They have this hadith that Abu Hanifa says is weak. So the men were preventing and Allah is saying don't prevent them. Two things, two things, two things. For example, I'm just giving you an example. Two things, two things. The ayah is talking to the men who are guardians over the girl. Okay. And it's telling the girls. It's telling the men. The men, the guardians. Yes, telling the guardians don't. Don't stop marrying them off to the men that they want of their choice. That's what the ayah is about. Don't prevent the women from marrying them off to the men that they think is fit for them. Okay. You have no control over this. Let her do her own. No, don't marry them off.  That's what it's talking to the guardian. Confusing is all gone. What's the ayah saying? The ayah is saying, the old guardians, if this sister brings a brother she likes, she wants this man. No, okay. Well, you're adding stuff into the ayah because I didn't say brother. She likes and it's No, no, I'm explaining to the ayah, please. The ayah says, Do not, oh, guardians, do not stop them. To marry them off to the men, to marry them off to the men. So marrying her off is by the guardian. That's what the ayah says. Don't stop them. You have no control over them. Oh, Habibi, do you understand why? Do you understand why this can get a bit complex? No, I can't. The fact that we're talking about the last 15 minutes. My point is, there's people would argue right now, even if this podcast is happening and they can make a two hours discussion over it. It doesn't give it a valid argument. But what I'm trying to say to you is that you're right. There are always going to be people who argue they're all people going to be stubborn and hard-headed. They're going to try to prove their point. My point is, with justice, with fairness, he doesn't have argument to stand on. His issue is no evidences for it. It's just what a, what do you call it, an issue of? It's an issue of each kias that he used. And these ulama who are more than him in Namba, more knowledgeable. It doesn't necessarily, by itself it doesn't. It adds on to other things. Second thing is, they're more knowledgeable than him in Hadith. He authenticated it. And Al-Imam Abu Hanifa, to be honest, in the concept of Hadith, he's weak, actually. Nobody weak in Hadith. Out of the people who are strong in Hadith, nobody weak. Now, I'm saying to you, take the Hadith, but what we have is that we have, I mean, there's few other evidences I can bring you. But the discussion that we're going to have here is that Al-Imam Abu Hanifa is standing on kias. These scholars are standing on an ayah from the Quran. Depending on how you interpret it? No, interpret it. Okay, give me another interpretation of that. I give you. And give me where you got that interpretation. Good question. Okay. Because I brought you the Sababun Nuzul that came down on, which is saiyah. Which, okay, this is my argument. This is my position. This is my position. You present your position. This is my position now. And all of these misa'il, these imams, these great noble imams, who you respect and you love and you honor. No, Shahid, you're confused two things. I don't want you to confuse two things. There are issues with the way you're presenting the argument. I would say, yes, you're right. It's not fair to push Abu Hanifa. In this issue, he's got his point, Allah mubarak. And I can see where he has his opinion. And I respect the other party. And he's a Hanafi. And I wouldn't make a big issue about it. Like putting your hand under your navel or whatever. I'm fine with all of that. I have no issue with it. The issue of moving your finger in the salah, they don't believe it's permissible. And others believe it's permissible. I want to make a big hoohar about it, because it's an issue that the difference here is valid. But here, delilun ghayru delil. What I'm saying is every single misa'il, we're not talking about the misa'il that you just mentioned, every single issue, my argument is that these great noble imams, they didn't just make up their verdicts based on their own desires, which I'm sure you would even say that they didn't do this. Agreed? No, can I answer that point? Of course you can. Every scholar gave a verdict on the delil he has. And some issues, they didn't have evidences. And they gave their verdict on a lower graded ruling. So they based it on what? Qiyas, for example, because the evidence didn't reach there. Or? Let me finish. Okay, go on. So in this situation for Anima Abu Hanifa, he looked for an eye, couldn't see anything from the eye. He didn't seem like that to him. Hadith, he didn't come across a narration for it. What did he now do? He gave the third option. He gave Qiyas. At this moment, he's the upper hand. Fine, we're with him. Then a delil came from someone who has it. They brought it to the table. Where if Abu Hanifa was to get it, this is the point I'm trying to say, if he was to get it, he wouldn't argue like the way you're trying. How do you know he didn't get it, but he just didn't believe it. Because all of them, it has been transmitted from them. They said, How many issues did they come back from? They themselves, if they were, everything that they said was based on all of the evidences, why did they do taraja? Why did Ahmad turn away from some issues? Why did Shafiq have a madhab al-qadim and madhab al-jadeed? Why? Okay. My question goes back to, if this Imam, which you believe that would not make verdicts based on his desires, can we at least agree on that? He wouldn't make rulings based on his desires. But he will make it based on his HD had. Agreed. Not a delil. I agree with you. Not on a delil. Okay. I agree. No problem. Let's go back to the battle of Ahzab. The companions made their decision based on their HD had. Okay. Some of them prayed later after the time of Asr. Some of them prayed at the time of Asr. They went back to the Prophet's system. They wanted to get a verdict. Which one of us is right? Which one of us is wrong? What did he say to them? Did he say both of you are right? Did he say you are wrong? I'm saying the Prophet didn't say both of you are right. If the truth is haq, the truth is wahid. One, why didn't he say you are wrong and you are right? Like you're saying now. Because you're saying something. You know why? I'm not a question. I'm not a question. The reason why he said that he was teaching us something. The people are going to come later. That there are evidences that are going to be like that where we have to respect each other in the way that we deal with each other on this issue. So there are going to be texts. When we read it, this person is going to understand it like that. And this person is going to understand it like that. And that this is called an HD had. And that we need to respect one another. But in no way shape or form. In that hadith that you brought, did the Prophet say both opinions that are on two different spectrums. Both of them are right. No, he didn't say that. But why if there's a clear aya from the Quran that tells you you have to pray on time? You're saying if you have a delir which is a aya from the Quran, it takes precedence over everything. Yeah, forget it. It takes precedence over HD had. Forget the issue of aya. You're bringing something external. Put that aside for me. They have a statement from the Messenger. They all just looked at that hadith. One of the groups restricted himself to the wording. And another one he done, he looked at the overall meaning, the wisdom behind why the Prophet said it. This is exactly what the Medahibs are like. And I said that at the beginning, at the beginning. And therefore they can all be right. Because he never said you were wrong. No, I'm not. That's why I said to you. Both parties who went to the Battle of Ahzab and the Prophet said to Banu Quraida, I told you both of them are not right. But if they were both not right, he would have said you were wrong. And he would have taught us a lesson and the lesson would have been greater that the fact that the truth is one. Again, that's my point. This is a long time ago since I looked at it. When I looked at this discussion of the Hadith of Banu Quraida and what the scholars... I can't really put my finger on it now. But there was Qara'in. I mean indications that alluded that the party that was seeing it as the Prophet saying, hasten were right. There were external narrations that indicated that that was right. It would have been nice if to prove your point, it would have been nice if he said, you guys were right, you guys are wrong. And I could have no response to you. But the fact that he didn't shows that I've got an argument on my side that there are every issue in Islam. Both parties can be right. What's your evidence for that? The Hadith of Ahzab. The Hadith of Ahzab. The Prophet didn't say both parties are right. Okay, but he didn't say... He just didn't blame both parties. Okay. And I'm saying to you, that's true. We can't blame the issue of niqam. One party could not blame the other party. They sit together. You're right. That's all that that Hadith shows. That there's sinning is not on any party here. There's no one leaving with a sin. Okay. But the truth is one.


All right, it's time for us to take a look at some of the headlines on some of the national deals this morning on the breakfast. We'll begin with the Daily Independent newspaper. And the Daily Independent newspaper is leading with Okonjo Iwela worried over rising burden of debt servicing. Nigeria's 91.6 trillionaire debt. Okonjo Iwela worried over rising burden of debt servicing. The riders there concerned it may eclipse with current expenditure investments. And the second rider advises incoming governors on private investment multilateral support. Ok, that's followed by US imposes visa ban on Nigerians who disrupted the 2023 elections. On the mass, people have inflation rises to highest in 17 years in April. The rider there lack of contemporary fiscal measures pushing inflation up and that's according to analysts. You have details of that partly on that page and on page seven of that newspaper. May 29 inauguration will defend democracy, keep internal security order, IGP. Now that's the much we'll take from the Daily Independent. Away from the Daily Independent, we'll move on next to the punch and newspaper. The main story this morning is on tinnable inauguration and the punch that leads us for some military IG one troublemakers as quote, here's anti handover case. And of course, Shilkuti is still in the news. There's a pictorial bear of him when he assaulted a policeman. And Shilkuti spends night in custody police plan arraignment that's on the punch newspaper. Above the massed head pay rise, a resident doctors begin warning strike Wednesday that's from tomorrow. United States denounters visa ban on Nigerian Polo Vegas and others as federal government suspend or spends that same trillion and subsidy sets removal guidelines. Not only would stars man as Murphy for lobby is buried, he does mass and cooking smashes world record grabs global attention. And the last one we'll take from the front page of the punch this morning. Good luck again commuters grown on Lagos, Ibadan Expressway. All right, from the punch newspaper, we go to the nation newspaper. And the nation newspaper leads with IG one's subversive elements against plot to derail May 29. The writer there, political actors conspiring to stop inauguration of president elect tinnable government. And then on top of that, you have life outside power is challenging Igminadio. So key tell outgoing governors details of that is on page five of the nation newspaper assault on inspector detained show cutie may undergo drug test details is on page seven and BS puts April inflation rate at 22.22%. Details of that is on page five. 13 trillion spent on subsidy in 16 years says federal government. The right of the tinnable to get guide from transition council. And then you have us, we've sanctioned those who undermine the elections. Part of that is on the headline and that you have the conclusion on page four. But that's the much to be taken from. From the nation newspaper. And the last paper we are reviewing for this morning is the Guardian. The main story is burning on certainty over $2.3 billion seaman's deal as great collapses 99th time on the Buhari or that's a sad one. Resident doctors declare five day warming strike United States slums visa ban on Nigerians who undermine 2023 election. Buhari law on hill hilda on world record feet. Government kicks against move to hold doctors migration. Buhari leaves inflation at highest in 17 years. What a way to caption that. Assaults cutie apologizes gives officer 12,000 Naira for vehicle repairs. Those are all the stories on the front page of the Guardian newspaper. Well we have now been joined by our analyst, our Tuesday analyst to take a look at some of these papers on off the press. All right, we have Chris came the one do member of the chartered Institute of arbitrators in the United Kingdom joining us this morning. Good morning to you, Chris. Good morning, thanks for having me. Chris, let's just go straight to we have so much, so much to talk about. I am just so excited this morning about some of the topics we have on the headlines. Let's begin with this advice, this worry raised and maybe I should call you concerned by Okonja Iwela over the rising burden of debt servicing. She made that she raised that concern yesterday. The burden on Nigerians has increased, Nigerians are worried. What do you make of that concern raised by the former finance minister? Yes, it's worried so much. This is something we've been talking about for months and years now. As of the last time I think about last year but the report from the central bank is that we're using $113 million to service debt every month in Nigeria. $113 million to service our debt every month and when you look at our updated debt it goes into the trillions. We forget that we also have good domestic foreign debt but it is more of the foreign debt that we are more concerned about. Another point was in particular about 18 to 85% of our revenue. I have to say that the problem now is infund natural servicing, servicing the interest and going from the banks. Some of the debts are spent over the past 5 years or 40 years so that maybe this government is living in the next two weeks and most of these debts were accumulated by this period because from reports when we had particularly about $2.7 billion, $2.7 trillion in debt, when a person goes, you don't forget that a person did not go to relief on Nigeria and our debts will have the forgiveness of whichever right of the critical pay of those debts. Between Yara Dua and Jonathan he grew to about $4 trillion. But within this government, this government they do, we have up to $4 trillion now we're hearing about it, something trillions. So that is how the level of indebtedness of Nigeria to most of the good I hear of. And this government continued to, even this last day, is about just last week, the government to do the national survey seeking to pick up a loan of about $800 million last week. A government that is particularly trying to try and we come to realize it and most of the finance continue to justify this borrowing. But the first let's put this straight, there's not a lot of any government borrowing. Most countries of the world, including the United States, borrow money from banks. But the difference between what they do and what we do is that when they use the earth for infrastructure they made with and also for critical sector of the economy, our only way we use the earth for what we don't understand and even in such money, the situation where you have an AGL and a Qatar general, that's $2 billion, over $100 billion, you know that we forgotten that case already, they say he returned for the $4 billion. That means we still have over $60 billion and that case has gone through. So it is not a corruption to be rather using the money for what is beneficial. That raises the question about the forces at the root you know of shaping this debt that we keep having. What are the forces, the root causes of these debts? Why do we keep borrowing? Are we using these monies for the supposed reasons why we claim to have borrowed them? That is what I'm saying because if you ask them what they use the money for, they say they have a root. I say that is the only problem in AGL. Yes, you have a root. What other money, what other music are you account for this and that is going to be a problem. I don't think this is coming up necessarily. Yes, you've also touched on the fact that we also have this internal debt states are also owing. One of the concerns and suggestions that Ngozi Okonjewela raised yesterday is that states should learn to diversify, they should learn to invest. Talk to us on that. I don't know if we know that state. But before we can also do that, we also have to take out our constitution because the way the constitution is presently, it does not give the state the leverage and the room to be able to manoeuvre some of the states. Most of the resources in this state stay tied to the exclusiveness which is controlled by the federal government. So if that can be opened up and the states can be able to tap on the resources material states just as it was in the first republic then add something back to federal government. So that is what Ngozi Okonjewela looked at simply saying that, yes, let us look at that constitution, the 1989 constitution as amended as it were and look at some of these things that are within the exclusive list so that we can open it up. It's already started doing that because if you look at the current some of the areas like electricity has been moved from the exclusive list. The correctional centres have been moved. The area of railways has also been moved. But the critical areas which is the mineral resources have not been stimulated because if you have government discovered goods and your backyard has it where the federal government will take over that lot of land and provide another one to you and it's the federal government that gives licenses for that so but if you allow the state to be able to do that there is no state in India that has no resources that it can be paid on and I can be able to survive. But the fact also says that our government has nothing they don't have any they don't think out of the box. They are not created in the earth because if they are then this issue of depending on how good you are every month creating a fast. So I want to talk about the IGR that the World Trade Organization mentioned as soon as you come to you know not several not many states in Nigeria can actually depend on themselves or what they can generate internally. For instance I know Lagos is one of the state that is like very focal when it comes to IGR and they can actually go without going cap in hands to the federal government each month at FAC to get the federal location. Some of the states that we know depends solely on the bulk of what they have is from the federal government. For those states what can they do in terms of IGR? How can they drive that? And besides you talked about the need to tinker with the constitution so they can actually have access to their resources but would you say that all states in Nigeria is less with the natural resources they can actually you know harness to get this IGR that we are talking about? Yes I have discovered that but let me also tell you somebody if you move from Lagos through to Shagamu or the name express way you will see an array of green land you will see an array of green land natural you don't need to fertilize that in most of the states invest in agriculture and agricultural processing plants you can be rest assured that they make so much money. Some states in the north like KB have very big facilities for a rice farming they can make so much money from rice while we are going up and the state correctly used to hear about abacile rice a country state can produce rice that the people of Nigeria can consume and even transport there are some states that are very good in palm. In most states in my states we used to produce a lot of palm oil. Palm oil is more expensive than petroleum but than good oil if they invest in that they will have so much export before we used to do number one in big one. Malaysia came in pick some of our nuts and bring it back and then start cultivating palm oil they are one of the largest exporters of palm oil so that is where I am going to talk about it. But in my states is the full basket of the federation they produce a lot of steam but that is just beyond that we are coming back with culture there are a lot of things especially we do not there are a lot of things that we do the issue of the security of the addressed why because people are no longer going to do because they are being killed by bandits they are being captured by heads and rest of them so it's a style everything is tied together now we are going to talk about this one a basket of a basket of small basket of tomatoes is now 70,000 yeah I thought it would be a good idea because I know she knows I want to buy tomatoes yesterday and I want to show you so what is this you are more aware to say ah tomatoes a basket is now yes you are telling me that it's just but to make us go for 5,000 so you can see that this issue of creativity can come into me one which is to address the disease you just have to be boiling on your own it's not only in this state that has support like labels it's not a state that has companies like labels it's not a state that can pay taxes but in the old days you know there used to be a time in the new state there used to be this I can't remember I don't know what I'm talking about now there are areas of if you are going towards the surface today when you see them on the left of the road you are barred from the rest of them so you just have to realize that some of this state can invest on no wonder what they do they collect this money they collect not only for the state they also collect that of look back but they can share it among themselves and all they do is pay salaries and at the end of the day they don't even pay all the salaries that is it that is it that is it okay let's move on to the next headline which is on the punch newspaper where um Tinnubu's inauguration military IG want troublemakers as caught here's anti handover case you know some residents of Agucha have gone to seek that um they've got to ask some questions regarding regarding the the swearing of the president elect uh saying that they have a say they should have a say as to who leads them that whoever is coming in should at least have 25 percent of their vote what do you make of this a story as of today the swearing is the only person or any unit that can stop that show me is the court as it were the tribunals as it were now the tribunals are sitting everybody has everything against that that result we go to the tribunals to iron the case those that are going to court also go to court but the fact remains that on the tribunals or the courts you know there's some of the tribunals you want to be known as courts uh election tradition courts and they don't want to be known as tribunals so it is only those tribunals or the court that can be determined is it that as of today as I swear um a new president will be sworn in on the 29th may because the courts the tribunals and courts have 180 days to be able to dispose of these cases and it is it is not possible and I'm I'm saying it um as a graduate of that it's primarily impossible to be able to do this within within this period that within these two weeks that the president will be sworn in so he'll be sworn in whether he will remain there after he's sworn will not become uh will be determined by the courts or the tribunals it were and then governors also we have about 22 governors new governors that are sworn in on the 29th of May so I've always come fast as I've always said but it's another problem that appear that our best way the best way to do is to make sure that we put the Kenyan and Uganda where we are the president-elect or the president-elect after the election the issue of the cases must be dealt with or should be dealt with before the president-elect is sworn in so that all this issue arising participation that best of then can be dealt with before uh before the sworn in we can move we can shift the election a bit backwards to make sure that we elect a president probably six months before sworn in so that the courts can have enough time to take through these cases and decide on that so that when you're entering the office you just need that there won't be any level of distraction in the past before the uh letter at there were instances in fact there was a particular instance where the presidential election petition ran for almost three and half years three and half years before it was finally decided at the supreme court that have been shortened by the new election which has pegged it to 180 days but as of today I still tell you that we agree the the president elected this one on May 29th yeah it's interesting you said that perhaps six months before swearing in because some uh some people have said that look when you compare Kenya and Nigeria we're not the same size we're not of the same size so what may have worked for them may not necessarily work here but it's interesting that you have said at least six months that should give us time enough time despite yeah yes that's why I say six months yes um Kenya is smaller um than Nigeria may have also seen much more give ourselves about six months look at the United States uh maybe I think the election comes at an November and the president gets one in I think January after quite they have also a a a a live nine of about three months we can still do here so if you put it to about six months before the presidential election with the election and give a time frame for all the issues arising from that election to be said then it will be able to then also the issue of this uh go to court go to court that has become part of our system will be eliminated because if you know that I'm good to court before you are swearing then you will be able to behave yourself because one of the things that they get this election will get into office and use this to make up office to be able to fight their cause they will use this to make up office in financially because they have they have their hands on the teeth and have their hands on the on the money of the state if some of them are going to use their own personal money this issue of go to court go to court will be minimized so that is why I said let us also take care of with this electoral attitude so that we can have though is it instructive Chris would you say this go to court go to court narrative we'll just really get into have it in this uh dispensation in this electoral process because before now you the courts we are not a place where people want to go to you know and but then this 2020 elections you just hearing this narrative go to court go to court go to court what do you think is responsible for that no this is not it is not because that they've always said it has it has but really that is not more pronounced yes it's not more pronounced we know that President Buhari for instance went to court in his time we also know that Chris yes you know that Buhari went to court three four times and he failed in fact he has to start crying nationally mission that he will not come to this day we forgot so there's practically no relation since 1999 that Buhari participated in that thing which caught articles have also been caught for all the times that he has participated in but the fact is that it is the because of the fathers people believe that they will not be able to get get justice in court um and that is why everybody say go to court I had you know that saying that that's a local palace that where you see somebody say go to court nine brother in probably nine be judged but that is that is neither you're not here that is only with but it is I always say that it is one opportunity that after millions of millions of two judges who just sit down and and non-annibation millions of ideas and determine the fate of ideas that it is not a good when the electoral process is transparent enough for everybody people feel that they must surely you saw what I've been doing with him and he accepted the result that is very problems all right I just hope that someday soon we'll actually move away from the courts the side and the outcome of um outcomes of elections for us in Nigeria I just hope we could just go to pose and uh without the elections being rigged and mad with irregularities and the clear winner will be given to us without the need for redresses here and there but let's just move on for sake of time I'm Chris another story is still related to the election matters that is making front page across some several papers is that the United States announcing a visa ban on Nigerian pool rigors and others let's share your thoughts and Chris just how far would that go in actually what I say in Mending uh are rigged election electoral process as it is yes before I go to that I'll be five or better no he cares about this because let me quickly tip in and congratulate Hilda um on associate the world record that she does just live up to Nigeria 100 hours of cooking uh just um I think we're there to get that rice and think I um a lot of people had a taste of it and so I congratulate her and I hope that the the Guinness people record we attified that as quickly as possible otherwise when we have that of coffee and dancing competition we need to empower that that would pass as quickly as possible now to the issue of um the the star band yes we have agreed that I totally accept that that but the question we go to actually say we do stop our politicians from doing what they do I mean in a nation you know we can't you can stop a lot for a long time please stop it please the name and shape just don't tell me that you have a certain people I know that you're using that policies to keep you know it's that if you tell us the most of Nigeria's that we are being that this is just a ban it will stop a lot of them from doing what they are doing uh this is the first time with the United States doing that and they never tell you the process and so let's take example in Russia United States such as certain individuals involved with the ukrainian war they mentioned their names their names were mentioned and also they are said that account will be frozen and some of them were also insured this time so if you are doing that we start the other country we'll stop for you from telling us who are those that participated in the election who were in the election who were in the process uh uh uh rigged this uh 2023 election let us know them so that we shame them so that the others that who want to try it in 2027 may not that a say will be that then all this is just a for me is uh at least today you can continue to need to know them let's say the United States if you don't do if you plan there from where you are so you might take it so you go to France so I'm going to get them in hand Dubai is still there is still there I have to go there so they stopping them from going to america not so far all right let's go to uh another headline on the punch newspaper the doctors are warning that they will go and strike Chris we talked about this about two weeks ago yes we did yes we talked about it and for now they've given another warning they'll be going on strike tomorrow you know we discussed that for me say that after that is that it was just today's money strike now they're going for a part of me and after that you're going to have total uh strike but let me also shock you that the research shows that within five years 75,000 losses and we have moved out of Nigeria that is the latest but 75,000 75,000 that is alarming it is that that you are talking about an upgrade of about 12,500 over 12,000 moving out of the country on a yearly basis that you now ask yourself what is the strength of our of our health that's how many how many of them do you have left yes there are many many many doctors have issued a strike you know we are talking about the issue of increment in salaries of certain categories of federal workers and the doctors were screwed up yes so this will be a part also part of it and I hope that the government to uh hand with his best I doubt what the government can do this government have barely to this to go and I personally will just add the to the doctors to shape whatever strike they have and wait until the new government comes in in two weeks time they can go into negotiation with them if this government have to is there you can move to impact best in backing our strike two is just before the this government is just at the at the it's at the gates they are the gates at the gates it's just the fact alone and whatever they are going to so that we don't have the same classes we have with us you know the problem with asshole that has to have with this government was not negotiated under this government it was negotiated under the good Lord Jonathan government and they brought it forward and this government is the oh we are not the one that negotiated this yes we know that government is a continuum but there's limits to what we can do so let the doctors I will appeal to the doctors watching us to please shape this strike and just give this we coming from me some kind of a statement that they they can move forward their grievances they're tied to that is the federal government just came out yesterday to say that it is against the bill being sponsored by national assembly to stop doctors from moving out of the country after graduation the minister of labor came out with that statement yesterday and I hope that it's what is going to be as I said before we cannot force anybody from moving stop anybody from moving out of the country that is the bridge office on fundamental human rights as a manager as a strength in the 99th position of the federal public of media as an entity yeah so we hope that they would listen and not go and destroy because at the end of the day it is the masses that actually suffers all of this not even the government first of all the government as you've said on their way out this particular administration so not much may be done if at all anything and then at the end of the day if they do not do anything about it then it would have been more or less an exercise in fertility where only the masses have suffered for nothing all right so we'll slide on next to the nation Chris lots of wonderful stories there but let's talk about the subsidy amount spent of subsidy in 16 years 13 trillion spent on subsidy in 16 years that's what the federal government is seeing and this year we were told that subsidy was supposed to be removed and next month and it was suspended now there's an incoming administration so far the country has spent this amount what do you think the incoming administration should be doing concerning this issue of subsidy removal the subsidy is the big elephant in the room very very big elephant in the room so and it's just like an elephant in a glass shop we just have to be able to know how to guide it at all the shop or else we destroy everything the shop my personal opinion is that yes some subsidy should be removed there should be a gradual remover the way our government wants to go about it once we like be very it's something we cannot we can't we cannot do it we should do away with completely I totally feel that something because it's not that because of the father benefit because of the level of corruption associated with subsidy that is the problem now initially we started with the states and say that the states are not happening enough you know if you remove subsidy migrants will have the state will have enough idea at a disposal to and then we would to provide necessary amenities doctors are going on strike because we don't have money that is also part of it so I would rather I would advise the incoming government yes the incoming president well I meant you know we state the category currently doing his campaign that he will remove subsidy even I think he even said from day one but I don't think we should be able to get that once we because the resource it is like that every other tool affected are going to buy for at the point where they say they said about 600 or 7900 per liter that would affect everything in Nigeria including food and even then services so transportation limit I would I look forward to a gradual remover but maybe to remove totally we have to revive all our refineries make sure that we're finding at full capacity and big new ones if you're going to do that what we're spending so much in imported fuel is going to reduce if we're able to revive our refineries what are the where the country the only country in the world as I said that produces good oil and at the end of it all import Trump but most other countries don't do that then totally to that is that come to the second of May this the ever-expected dangote refinery the biggest refinery in the whole of Africa is going to come on steam and that also is going to affect our importation of petroleum products so we're going to have refined products in Nigeria and that also be able to help out in this so much so much foreign exchange I've explained in importing petroleum products and that review whether that is going to solve the problem is not because I still believe that if dangote is the refinery that is refining petroleum in the country then we are going to have monopoly and we are going to be at the back of back and call off um like in dangote but whenever I decide I want to crisis we all will pay just as we have seen some level of monopoly certain sectors where dangote has the uh in monopoly but the final decision is for us by the refineries it's got me um promise reviving refineries and building new one in the whole of 20 from 2015 to date eight years not a single refinery was required despite the billions and billions of mirror that we voted for for the refineries to revive and that is where I think that yes I've said that is where yes it should be focusing this attention this billions and billions uh yes I know that their focus is now on those are the smaller boys they are huge that yes those are the smaller boys somebody is over 1000 and you are parading and going around and shouting that billions and billions that yes it should be focusing on that is where the new monies yes Chris you know you know I read a report by uh OPEC that Nigeria produces NNPC produces just eight percent of the oil we use that is so you can imagine we have four refineries and NNPCs only are accountable for eight percent of the oil we use in the country. EFCC focuses its attention on NNPC though in the next one year we will be able to finish job with the level of erosion in that even in the even in the power sector go and see how much we expanded to get power that's not the fact that we've uh listed the subsidies being given there you have come to look at in various organizations I have told you of an instance of a particular a one particular AGF stoned over allegedly to over 100 billion one minister that was ministers dollar yes minister of the last uh one of the ministers s ministers under this government has just arrested for stealing allegedly sleep 22 billion let me give a you are not let me just put this with this mask if you have one billion in your account and you start spending 50 naira 50,000 naira on a daily basis in the next 15 years you will not be able to finish one billion 200 a mass one billion 50,000 every day that is where somebody stole over 100 billion one you can see that these guys are just they're just crazy they're sorry for the use of word you know so those are barriers I expect the efc to focus on and even icpc that practically has gone to sleep and that is why I also feel that most of these agencies should be matched and that is what the next government should be looking at I don't see the what icpc is doing that uh efc they can be able to mine them and increase their portfolio and have enough personas to be able to carry out the job I don't know what icpc is we are spending money on icpc spending money on efc whether at the end of it we're not getting this result this is coming to me to look at the recommendation of the also here I partner if you remember that partner he came out with the reorganization of ministries and prostitutes that issue must be looked into by the incumbent government and implemented as quickly as possible all right Chris before you go talk to us about what you think concerning shenokuti's crisis if I were to if I can put it at that you know you saw all that's played out it's on the headlines um he submitted himself at the police station we saw him in handcuffs yesterday um what do you make of all of that his attack on the police man all those all that we saw playing out over the weekend when I know you asked that question I know you asked and I know you because you don't my pet uh over five years over five years I was the artist and promotions manager of one of biggest Nigerian music company sonny music Nigeria in the 90s and at the point I was managing over 15 Nigerian artists shenokuti asked my pet for share um so a lot of benign named them um so many of them and I know the I need my set of artists but what she did what she is in a student who is this is going beyond an explanation and to have even come out while we are trying to see whether uh we can be forgiven for what they say he cannot have been okay but why is he has said that he has been slapping this man he told me Nigeria that he can do that can show him to the United States and slap his police man in the UK on the United States he of course now police men have been killing shooting people in the US especially blacks for no just reason we forgot it in black life matters that was he there was a black man that was killed in the US and the guy didn't do anything so it because of the level of infinity here that we that they can get to meet and that is why they're doing what I think the full weight of the law should be uh visited on him so that he can learn his lesson um it should be the energy he used and decided due course not this unnecessary distraction if you put it into his music I'm sure he can live thank you yes I also want to appeal to Nigerians that um we have so many of his students that have been very showed um he has been very very good ambassador of this country even so and he has been very very well and so if you do just use the uh in sharing um attitude to be able to rubbish that legend thank you thank you so much Chris for your time it's always a pleasure to listen to you analyze these headlines especially on Tuesday when we have you thank you so much for your time thank you very much for having me and do have a wonderful day you too Chris Kende Wando is a member of the chartered institute of arbitrators in the UK and he's joined us this Tuesday on off the press to take a look at the headlines on some of the national dailies we'll be right back in a moment to go into our very first hot topic and do not forget we have Mazi Sam or Huawei taking a look at the burden of Nigeria's debt on the citizens this morning on the breakfast stay with us


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