Everybody, today we're debating whether or not Islam fits in Western society and we are certain right now. Ladies and gentlemen, thrilled to have you here for another epic debate. This is going to be a fun one, folks. As we explore this brand new topic, probably a juicy one, so strap your seatbelts on, folks. It's going to be a wild one. Want to let you know, though, at Moderated Debate, we are a nonpartisan channel focused on hosting debates on science, politics, and religion. We are very excited for this one today, and if it's your first time here, consider hitting that subscribe button as we have many more debates to come. In fact, even tonight we have a tag team debate, two atheists versus two Christians, so that should be a lot of fun. And also want to let you know, if you haven't heard yet, we are stoked about the fact that we have recently decided Moderated Debate is invading the podcast world. So we are excited. You'll see on the far right side of your screen. Those are just some of the podcast, I should say podcast apps that we are already on. And so if you can't find us on your favorite podcast app, let us know. We'll work to get on there. So with that, want to let you know, for our debate today, very excited, want to let you know neither of our guests has a camera. So that is basically the screen, the way it looks right now is the way it's supposed to look. You will be able to tell who's actually talking, though, by looking at which bar is lighting up. So there will be a yellow bar, you're seeing it blink a little bit as a little bit of sound is coming from Dean's mic. And so that will signify which side is talking. And want to let you know, for our format, it's fairly flexible. We have about roughly 10 to 12 minutes for opening statements followed by open conversation and then Q&A. I want to let you know, if you have a question, feel free to fire it into the old live chat and it'll make it easier for me to get every single question in that Q&A list if you tag me with at modern day debate in that question. Super Chat is also an option in which case you can ask a question or if you'd like, you can make a comment toward one of the speakers and Super Chat will also push your question or comment to the top of the list for the Q&A to be sure it gets asked. So with that, we are excited, folks, we're going to kick this one off, but do want to let you know we are very excited to mention we are going to start with the affirmative so Orthodox Moore is going to get the ball rolling as he's going to answer yes to the question that Islam can fit within Western society and then Dean will go arguing why it cannot. So with that, very excited to have you guys and one last thing. I put both of the links for our guests in the description, folks.  You can hear more at those links. So thanks so much, gentlemen. Let me just first say we really appreciate you coming to hang out with us. It's a true pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate being here. Absolutely. And with that, Orthodox Moore, the floor is all yours for your opening. Well, let me say thank you to the platform for having us. Thank you for my counterpart for being here. Thank you for the chat for showing up and share my screen real quick. Can you see my screen? Yes. Now we can. All right. Start up. So this debate is, does Islam fit in Western society? Real quick. My name is Tav on Swineau, aka the Orthodox Moore. I'm a Quranist, carite, libertarian, theological naturalist. I wasn't always a Muslim. I was not raised as such, et cetera. A good Sri Lankan Muslim brother, they gave me a Quran when I was younger and sat on my shelf for 10 years because I thought I was going to find wife beating and child marriages inside it and all kind of crazy stuff. After finding out about some familial ties to Islamic societies, I decided to read the Quran and was amazed by what I read. I was quite surprised to find that the extreme concepts I had thought were in the Quran were actually in the hadith, secondary books of sayings that are not considered equal to the scripture of the Quran by Muslims. I can completely understand why someone would think that Islamic culture has no place in Western society given the images painted in our media. I used to think the same thing myself with all the stories of terrorist organizations, honor killings, grooming gangs and the like. Then I came to understand that I was being exposed to radical Islamic extremism and by definition was extreme and not representative of what the vast majority of Muslims believe now or have believed historically. Please understand. I'm saying this as some media conspiracy in any way, shape or form. In fact, I'm saying quite the opposite. What I noticed after delving into the world of Islamic debate and dialogue was that the extremists, although the smallest segment of Muslims were making the most noise, while the normal slash moderate Muslims were too busy arguing amongst themselves between the different sects on meaningless matters of dogma to notice the extremists moving in the shadows or to call them out publicly. To that end, I have had two YouTube channels taken down by so-called Muslims for defending the free speech and criticism of people like Tommy Robinson and Asal Raghavi and using the Quran to do so or the place they stand for justice even against yourselves.  I don't agree with their ideology, but I agree with their ability to be able to voice their opinion and to voice critiques against Islam as long as they do not call for harm against people. As a matter of fact, the video I made about the concept is one of Tommy Robinson's last few tweets on his Twitter page before it was taken down. It is my position that radical Islamic extremism is real and that the Quran obligates almost to stand for justice against such, even if we must stand against ourselves or our families. It is also my position that the religion of Islam is not against the Western values, ethics or society in general. The religion of Islam teaches principles consistent with the Western way of life, the non-aggression principle, religious tolerance, women's rights, being a good citizen, disdain for oppression, academic study and rational thought. It is my position that any disdain for the West is a cultural phenomenon and has nothing to do with the religion of Islam in and of itself. My position is that extremism does not belong in any society Western or otherwise. I don't judge Islam by the extremists that violate the faith like ISIS or Boko Haram, just as I don't judge Western society and culture by Nazi Germany or the papal bulls that initiated the transatlantic slave trade. Most people that take issue with Islam either do so for religious or cultural reasons. However, there is nothing about the religion or culture of Islam that stopped Western Islamic cultures from sharing with and also enriching Western society. My father descends from West Africans who were historically Muslim that went through the slave trade. My mother descends from North African Jews that came to America via Spain and Mexico. Both lineages have historical ties to Islamic societies in North and West Africa. These are Western Islamic societies. They are interwoven into the fabric of the history of and culture of Western society. Most are not aware of Islamic influences on Western society through no fault of their own. We're simply not taught about it in Western schools. Hopefully, some light can be shed on that history here today. Disclaimer, we will most likely, me and my opponent will most likely disagree on the cultural expressions of Islam that we don't like. I'm willing to stand with anyone against child marriages, battered women, grooming gangs, acts of terrorism, and the limiting of speech, etc. Muslims don't agree on hadith scholars or sex. The only thing that is agreed upon is the Quran as a source text. I will defend the Quran as the universal standard for Islam only. Second, disclaimer, the scholars in schools of jurisprudence that are linked to radical Islamic extremism are typically of a fundamental Salafism or Wahhabism. From the 18th and 19th century, a school of thought that is no way emblematic of Islam as a whole or the Western Islamic societies I will be mentioning here. These societies that I will be talking about historically were either Malachi, Zachary, Sufi, Somershia. And these schools of thought were coming through in the 18th and 10th centuries. And even before that, some cultures predated schools of jurisprudence altogether, like when the Moors went into Spain in 711 AD. My premise is this. Yes, Western Islam fits in Western society. Interactions and influences from Western Islamic cultures are interwoven into the fabric of Western society. Contributions from Western Islamic cultures on Western society are just as foundational to the construct of Western society as those from Greco-Roman culture, Judeo-Christian culture, the Renaissance, or the Enlightenment. Islamic cultures translated Greek classics, expanded math, science, philosophy, and medicine, et cetera. And we're involved in developing the West through alliance, trade, and exploration. Also with my premise, Muslim slaves and their modern descendants, almost one-third of slaves taken in the transatlantic slave trade were from African Islamic societies. Around 25% of just American Muslims alone are descendants from slaves. American Muslim descendants of slaves do not have a history of involvement with the terrorist acts of radical Islamic extremism. The Islamic society's latest syndrome were not historically Salafi or Wahhabi. American Muslim descendants of slaves not only helped build America through slave labor, but have integrated themselves into the pop culture and politics of America. Conclusion, if this discussion is in good faith, then we should be able to agree on solutions for fighting radical Islamic extremism in Western society. We should also be able to agree on the historical contributions made to Western society by Western Islamic cultures. Not to mention there should be no argument about American Muslim descendants of slaves fitting into Western society. Also, if this discussion is not in good faith, then I will expect the strawman of Salafism and Wahhabism and radical Islamic extremism being made to represent the whole of Islam. I would also expect dismissive rhetoric about the existence of Western Islamic culture and hand waving of any demonstrable contributions to Western society. Not to mention the flat denial of the American Muslim descendants of slaves fitting into Western society. Western Islamic societies and their influence. Greco-Arabic translation movement of the 8th and 10th century in Baghdad at the House of Wisdom translated Greek text into Arabic such as Aristotle, Homer, Plato, Hippocrates, Ptolemy, Yarin, and many, many, many, many others. After such, the Islamic world developed said information and retranslated the Greek and their own Arabic text on the information into Latin in the 10th and 13th centuries. You can see here Al-Khorezmi, Ibn Sina, Al-Ardi, Al-Ghazali, Al-Farabi. These are all different thinkers of medicine, science, astronomy, etc. that were translated into Latin text for the Western world. For instance, Al-Khorezmi. His name, we get the word algorithm from his name. We get algebra in our society from this man. Can you, can you, can you conceive a Western society not using algorithms right now? Influences on Fibonacci and Copernicus, Newton and Descartes, these all came from Islamic culture. We get Arabic numerals, the heliocentric view, laws of motion, and epistemology being affected by these cultures. Aspects of Western daily culture via Islamic Iberia and more. We get toothpaste, deodorant, shaving, hair conditioner, three-course meals. We also get coffee, distilled alcohol, daily bathing in seasonal fashion. Not to mention in these cultures, they had public bathhouses and public education and public ovens, etc., the foundation of a safety net in society as we enjoy in the West, etc. Also, aspects of the Western culture via Islamic influence were the fact that you had Muslim, Jewish, Christians, and female scholars and academics. You can look up Lubna of Kordubu, Maimonides, and Honein Ibn Ashaq, and also Al-Sahibi. These are female, Jewish, Christian, and even Sabian scholars, all flourishing within Islamic societies. We have Ibn Aswad, a Moorish-Iberian navigator, said to have sailed over the Atlantic and found New Land in 889 A.D. We have Mustafa Esmuri, also known as Esteban the Moor. He was an explorer and surgeon. He explored North America from Florida to Arizona from 1528 to 1539. We also have 800 years of Anglo-Moroccan alliance to trade and culture, going back from the 1213 to modern times and whatnot. We also see that through that alliance, trade and culture, that Islamic presences and figures show up in Anglo-pop culture. For instance, you have Shakespeare writing about five Moorish characters in five and four plays of his, most notably Othello the Moor. Etcetri and Othoriel engines, there are four Saracen knights that participate in his round table, et cetera. 400 years of Dutch and Moroccan alliance with trade and culture, et cetera. We have the Treaty of Friendship in Free Commerce in 1608 and 1610. In such trade and commerce, et cetera, we see that Islamic culture show up in their culture, in their pop culture as well. You can see the story of Maureen and our thorian romance about the Moorish knight. About a Moorish knight. There was 250 years of U.S. Moroccan and Barbary alliance, almost 250 years in America, trade, et cetera. Morocco recognized, was the first country to recognize the U.S. in 1777 and was the first to strike a treaty with them in 1786, 1787. The Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, listen to this, stipulates this in Article 11. There is no enmity with the Muslim religion. America has no enmity with the Muslim religion. In our pop culture, America, we see this, we watch this every year in this country, the movie of roots. It's a story about a Muslim slave struggle to retain his culture.  I expect I'm going to be hard to live with sometimes, meaning him praying multiple times a day. This isn't our modern American culture. Again, American Muslims who were enslaved or Muslims who were enslaved, who were enslaved. And again, we have American Muslim descendants thereof. We have Omar Ibn Said, Yara Mahmood, Abdul Rahman Ibrahim Ibn Sa'iri. All these men were Fulani men from Senegal and Guinea, and all of them were extremely, extremely educated and can write in the Arabic, et cetera, whatnot. We have memoirs from them. We have histories from them written down. We have theology and the autobiographies you can watch or you can go read and go check out. And we can see how some became entrenched into our society after being freed, becoming merchant fined, financiers, et cetera, whatnot. Also, just to note, one was actually freed and sent back to Africa via one of the Moroccan trees that was signed. Got about 30 seconds. OK. Real quick, I want to talk about a few Muslims who were descendants of slaves who are well known in American pop culture. You have Malcolm X. He's the major cause behind modern conversion to Islam. We have Muhammad Ali, one of the greatest boxes of all time. We have Karim Diljabar, the leading scorer in the NBA. We have Ahmad Rashad. He was a sportscaster and the husband of Felicia Rashad, the TV wife of Bill Cosby. And on top of that, we have the first two Muslims who were a part of the American Congress. They are African-Americans who converted to Islam. Do they not fit in the West? Do all the different contributions of Islam not fit in the West? If they don't, then you need to go back to a view to where you look at the Earth as the center of the world and it's flat. You've got to give up your coffee. You've got to give up your bathing. You've got to give up your distilled alcohol, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But with that, I yield the balance of my time. Thanks so much. We will kick it back into the dialogue boxes. And so thanks for your opening from orthodox more. We are going to kick it over to Dean for his opening as well. Thanks for being here, Dean. All right. Mr. James, thank you for having me on your show. The orthodox more. I'm happy to debate with you today. I would like to talk on the motion that Islam is not a feed for the Western society. So first of all, what is Islam? Islam means something to a lot. Hold on one second. I think that there is a little bit of an internet connection issue, just one sec. Sorry to interrupt. I'll restart your time so that you have the full 12 minutes. But it was just that we were already starting to lose you there. We'll give you a restart right now. And thanks for your patience. The floor is all yours. OK, thank you for having me on your show. And James, I'm happy to be here to talk more. Thanks for coming to talk with me. First of all, what does Islam mean? Islam simply means submission to Allah. Allah is an Arabic word meaning God. So in Islam, it simply means that you don't make any choice of your own, make no decision of your own. You just choose to follow God. And that is just it. But according to the Islamic Jewish students, Islam has been meant to worship Allah alone and none else, to offer prayers, perfectly pay the compulsory charity and to observe fast during the month of Ramah. In the 7th century, a guy named Mohammed claimed to yes from an angel called Angel Gabriel. Even if we don't know whatever that means, then he claimed that there's only one God. And he decides to follow the God of the Jews and the Christians. All right. And since then, Islamic empires as spread through violence, wars, slavery, and everything that will get out through the rate of this debate. All right. OK. Sahib Buhari, one of the most widespread hadiths in Islam, even though my brother said she wouldn't be able to have this. But please, permit me to quote what Sahib Buhari says on the topic of Islam. He said that Islam means to surrender is to testify that there is no God but God. And that Mohammed is God's messenger to perform the prayer best of all. Fasting Ramah and make outcance the pilgrimage to the holy house. Now, what is this? This is the five pillars of Islam, which is compulsory given, which is called the zakat. You must go to pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia and to prove that there's only one God. The definition of Islam alone proves that the belief can be compatible with the West. Why do I say so? The West is built on a different opinion. It's a multiverse place. It's not a place whereby you follow one idea and you stick to that idea. Any idea that feels superior to another, that only him should be heard, is a problem in the West. The West is the head class of democracy. Yeah, there are over 20, if not more countries in the Middle East, countries in Africa that follow Islamic law. They don't give us this platform for debate. We can't do this in Saudi Arabia or Iran. OK, yes. I intentionally mentioned Saudi Arabia or Iran now. Islam has two denominations, the Sunni and the Shi'a. Now, which do we follow? Which is the word of God? Do we follow Habib Bakr or Imam Ali? That one is still a question that we are here to answer today. I think there's maybe, forgive me, I promise I'll give you the time back. I'll give you the time back. Dean, I hate to interrupt, but Dean, I promise I'll give you the time back. It sounds like there's kind of like a rustling in the background.  It's just like maybe papers or something. It's a little bit, sometimes it kind of spikes the audio on me into the red. But you can keep going, but just want to let you know that. OK, OK, sorry, let me get the papers off the microphone. OK, thank you. As I'm just saying, I'm talking about the Sunni and the Shi'a Islam now. Which do we follow? I talked about the five pillars of Islam earlier, and everybody knows that that goes with the Sunni. Maybe the Shi'a has seven pillars of Islam. So which is the way, man? How can this idea that is in conflict with each one self, be applicable in the West? The West, if we look at America, for example, the question of independence, I need to say that all men are created equal. And all men should do something that will create their pursuit of happiness. But if we go back to the 7th century and how I am, Mohammed's prayer in Islam, I don't think that was happiness to people. I don't think that there was someone in the West who would be happy to. Uh, we're, Dean, I'm sorry, we're still not, we're not quite hearing you, Dean. Dean, we're not, I'd say, I couldn't hear Dean one second. Dean, OK, Dean, one second, I'm sorry, like the last 10 seconds, I, or so, I just couldn't hear. Are you, are you able to get to a spot that might have a stronger connection? It just kind of seems like it was cutting out that time. It wasn't the sound interference. It was more that the connection might not have done it, like it might not have been that strong. Yeah, we cannot hear you. I can't hear you. Yeah, so I don't, I mean, I, it's definitely your internet connection. I mean, it's your, maybe part mic, but part internet connection. Are you hearing me now? Yes. This, we'll try to go again. All right, it's all good. OK, let me, are you hearing me now? Let me bring the microphone closer to your ear. I can hear it still, though, that your internet connection is kind of ebbing and flowing. I don't know if it can handle the Zoom audio. I don't know if it's, we're just not quite getting your audio in that smoothly, but we'll give it a shot. OK, I'm gonna keep trying. And then if you're able to, I hate to be so hard on you, but just, if you're able to slow down just a bit, just because I think it's hard for people to hear just because it's also going fast, and then the internet connection, and then the sound feedback is hard, but we'll kick it back over to you. Are you there? I'm, I don't know for sure if we're going to be able to finish this debate. Dean, I don't know if you're there if you can hear me, but we just can't quite hear you. We might not be able to continue, because people, it's just really hard to hear you. I don't know if you can hear me right now. Can you hear me? Once in a while, I can hear you, but I just don't know if this is gonna work today. I think that, you know, I'm really sorry we give it our best shot, but I mean, if you can hear me now, in the pre-show, I felt like it was more consistent, but it's just, but maybe that's just because we were, you know, setting up. We weren't talking and we couldn't notice it. Are you, can you hear me? I'm hearing you clearly, but I don't get why you're not hearing me clearly. Yeah. Wherever you're at, Dean, just stay right there. Just stay right there, don't move around. We'll try again. Yeah, I think like, let's just go from right where you are. We can keep trying, and we'll see, hopefully it'll keep going. Okay, do I start afresh, or should continue from where I stopped? Uh, let's see. I would say maybe like two minutes into it would be fine. So like only last minute or so, because the last minute has been me asking if you can hear me. So maybe just the last minute, if you wanna repeat that and we'll keep going. Okay, I was talking about the two major denominations of Islam, which is the Sunni and the Shia. And now, if we look at the same two major denominations, we're already causing so many conflicts in the Middle East between them, Saudi Arabia and Iran. In Iran, especially, three groups, they are sentenced to death last week. What was their crime? Simply protesting against the Ayatollah, and with the Ayatollah, the spiritual leader of Iran. Also, if we look at their men like Osama bin Laden, which they are not able to do with Islam, in the creation of Saudi Arabia as a state, it was simply an agreement between them, Mohammed Ibn-Ad al-Wahab and Mohammed bin Saud, in order to form a currency state for the Arab, run under Islamic ideology. And now, if we look at what happened in Afghanistan, how they were, how they stood to go confront the Soviet Union, which led to Osama bin Laden going there to chase out the Soviet Union and the rest of what Osama bin Laden is history. And now if we say that that has nothing to do with Islam, then I ask, what else? Islam that spreads to violence, wherever Islam went, violence followed. The only place that we consider Islam, didn't go with violence in South Asia, in places like Indonesia, Malaysia. Yes, Islam didn't spread with violence. But if we look at the Middle East, Mohammed himself started the whole process with violence, and is that what is at the value in the West? Obviously, not so. In the West is run by a liberal democracy, but everyone is free to say what they like and dislike. Like for example, this is our discussion today. It's taking place in the West. We can't do this in the streets of Iran or Saudi Arabia or any Muslim majority country. There are laws against converting out of Islam. If someone converts from Islam to Christianity, yeah, it's gonna be the cure. And I can use the first of the Quran to prove that point. In Surah 9, 11 to 12, Surah 16, 106, and Surah 4, it's nine. It states clearly, QD Khufri, and with the Khufri, anyone who believes Islam should be executed and in various parts of the hadith, the Sahih, Buhari, and the Sahih Muslim, it has been stated clearly that someone should be heard. Anybody who lives the faith. I don't think that's what people in the West should subscribe to. In the West, everybody lives there freely, the Muslim, the Christian, the Jew, the Atheist. For example, look at the Oxford Union, maybe I'll buy the, so many debates have taken place. I don't see such debates in Iran. Nobody knows the Atheist of Saudi Arabia. And one more point, throughout last century, there were over a million Jews in the Middle East. They were Jews in Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and every majority around the Jews. But today, where are the Jews? I ask that question, where are the Jews? Outside from Israel, is there no place, part of the Middle East that you can find the Jews? No, we're also in Pakistan. As of the last century, there are 7 million Muslims and over 200 monks in Pakistan. But today, there are only two Hindu temples in Pakistan and over 200 Jews, sorry, 200 Hindus. Where are the Hindus? Like I've always said before, and I'll say it on this platform also. Christianity is politics, but Islam is, sorry, Christianity is business, Islam is politics. Islam is a political movement. It's no longer a religion, it's not a political movement. Whereby it tends to, anywhere it goes, change the order and the government, overthrow the government as in, let me use the word, a coup, take over the system and immediately it starts its own version of whatever it thinks is the best form of them, Sharia law in that place. For example, 1979 Islamic Revolution, whereby the Shah, which was supported by the West, was removed and everybody know what Iran is today. We all know how the Middle East has been passed and that with various wars here and there. I conclude with this statement. If Islam was so great, why do Muslims run from the predominant Muslim areas and go to the West? If Islam was not nice, why don't the Muslims in the West pack up their bags and head to Saudi Arabia? If Islam was so nice, why can't Shia Muslims worship peacefully in their own mosques in Saudi Arabia and why can't Muslims in Saudi Arabia do the same in Iran? If Islam was so great, why did the destruction of Yemen, thank you. Gotcha, thank you very much. And then Dean, we do have to fix a couple of things before we go forward. I don't know what it is, but in, I'm looking at the OBS Sound Meter and your, the speech that's coming through is in the green and it's bumping into the yellow, which is pretty much where we want it. But there's like something, I don't know if it's a crumpling paper or like a clicking noise that flies into the red. And so it's kind of like, it's a little bit jarring. I'm not sure if you're able to figure out what it is that might be all of a sudden just kind of really quick little blips that are super loud and distracting. But we will go into the open discussion and then I think Orthodox more, if you're able to help me out, I'm my attention kind of being both on the chat for questions as well as listening to the debate. If there's anything that you're able to hear and able to explain like what was said, because it's hard for me. No worries. That would be super helpful, thanks so much. I'll do my best. And the floor is all yours guys, thanks so much. So who gets the first question? Just open conversation so you guys can feel free to just kind of dialogue. Okay, so real quick is, I want to clear this up with Dean. So are you against like all religions in the West? Like are you against Christianity and Judaism, et cetera? Or are you just against Islam? Yeah, sure. I don't believe in God for every religion, not just Islam. But Islam is a political movement. If you can go back to, Hey Dean, if you're cutting in and out real quick, if you can go back to, I don't know if you're moving around, but if you go back to wherever you were. Once politics come in, that's where it's coming in that critical Islam. You can't understand it, it's a political movement. The decision is set to uphold law. Dean, we can't hear you. You're cutting out, brother. We need to, Dean, we've got to do something here. Otherwise we've got to, I am afraid we'll have to stop the debate. Hold on a second. Hold on, I'm still talking. We've got to do something here. So hold on a second, Dean, is that we have to fix this. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense for people to listen.  So I need you to work with me. Is there a spot you can go to where the connection is better? Where did you move from the spot that you were at during your opening? Are you able to hear me? Yeah, I can hear you perfect. Dean, can you hear me? Yeah, I just don't think this is going to work. I gave it. I think that we're getting kind of the robot voice though. It's just, it's really hard to make it. I can hear you clearly now. Like 50% maybe. Hello? Yeah. You're sounding like the matrix for me. This is just, I just don't think it's going to work, Dean, from what we've had so far. So I think we're gonna have to try to scrap it. I really wish that we could continue, but I just don't think we can. There is just no way we can, I can't hear what you're saying. But we do want to say thanks everybody for coming out and hanging out with us. Maybe Dean is trying to reconnect. If he's able to reconnect, we can give it one last try, but otherwise do not mention, we appreciate your support folks. We are very excited for a lot of debates coming up. We are in talks with a lot of new people that we're bringing on the channel and a lot of new topics as well. So I know that this one is a challenging one. And so thanks for your patience folks. We just have to kind of go with the best we can in terms of like the connection. We kind of go with it and hope it'll hold in the pre-show. It seemed like it was okay. Like we could all understand each other, but like I said, maybe we just didn't notice that the connection was ebbing and flowing because we just weren't carrying a conversation. It was more just me trying to set up an OBS and asking a couple of questions like who's going to go first and all that. So we do want to say, Orthodox more will probably be back as depending on whether or not we hear back from Mike Enoch, they may debate which should be an interesting one. So want to say thanks so much folks. There will be a debate tonight and that is two atheists versus two Christians. So that should be a really fun one. Want to say thanks so much everybody for being here. I think we probably lost Dean completely. And so I think that that's maybe why he hasn't logged back in. So we do hope you're well, Dean. Maybe if we find another connection spot where we have a smooth connection, we can give it another shot someday. But want to say thanks so much everybody for hanging out with us today. Sorry, I know that you expected a debate and we will actually, we are open. Orthodox more has a smooth connection. If someone else in the next week would like to step up and do this debate with Orthodox more, arguing that Islam does not fit in Western society, let us know. And we will work to make that debate happen. So let's see. We give it the whole college try, that's right. Let's see. So want to say thanks so much folks. And we will, maybe this is something we can do next week where maybe in the next two weeks we'll find someone who will give him a decent amount of time to prepare for the debate. And my guess is Orthodox more, you'd still be up for it no matter who it was with. And we can try that. So want to say thanks everybody for being with us. We hope you guys come back tonight for that debate to atheists versus to Christians in a tag team debate on whether or not Christianity is true. So that should be a fun one. And want to say thanks again for coming by everybody. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. And thanks both Dean, who is no longer with us. We hope you're well Dean and thanks Orthodox more as well. Yeah, thank you. One more time for me when I'll sit a bit. Absolutely. Take care folks and we will hopefully see you tonight.


This robotic fish could pave the way to making underwater drones more efficient. As reported in the Journal of Bionic Engineering, the key to its design is the inclusion of an anal fin on its underside. Like in real fish, this fin balances the side-to-side motion produced by the flapping tail fin, which in robotic fish tends to create a disorienting shaking of the head. In fact, without the anal fin, this fish experienced more than 10 degrees of lateral swaying, which was reduced when the anal fin was added, and reduced even further when the anal fin was allowed to move on its own. Timing the movements of the anal and tail fins just right minimized head shaking by up to 65%. Future studies will examine how the anal fin's shape, position, and stiffness affect swimming metrics like speed, thrust, and efficiency, and could lead to improved underwater robotics for environmental monitoring and patrol missions.


It's World Facilities Management Day, with the theme standing tall beyond the pandemic. The International Facility Management Association in Nigeria is using this opportunity to raise awareness on the gap in maintenance culture of facilities in the country. Justine Telbuku tells us more. The gathering of these professionals, experts in the field of architecture and environment is to address the loopholes in facility management, with the theme celebrating FM, standing tall beyond the pandemic, which borders on the renewed importance that should be placed on human health and safety, coupled with building sustainability and resilience. The Lagos State Safety Commission is tied to the mandate of ensuring the safety and health of Lagosians and we see facility managers as partners in progress in this drive. There is a need for us to incorporate and bring in, at the point of inception, experts in facility management that will also help when we are generating and formulating design. We cannot continue to design and our failures. When you want to design a space, you are recommending 20-story building to say, where is electricity to operate the lift? And I said, are we going to be like this forever? It's so sad that in this part of the world in Nigeria, our maintenance culture is zero and you and I are to blame. Part of the event was a panel section where the vital work of Facilities Manager, frontline workers were recognized during the heat of the pandemic. Facility managers, architects, engineers, plumbers are all frontline workers. I mean, mostly when you hear about COVID, all you heard about was the doctors, the nurses, but trust me, we had cleaners there every day, we had electricians, we had plumbers, architects, we were all at the forefront of this pandemic. The panelists also gave a way forward in tackling the issues of maintenance culture of facility management. When you're talking of maintaining the building, you don't get the materials, you don't get a replacement. When we're specifying things or when we're using any material, there's always think of local content. No one wants to do any sort of maintenance until it becomes a problem. You know, no one wants to clean the gutter until the gutter is clogged. You increase the lifespan of the building if you do continuous maintenance. Yes, maintenance culture is not too good. But again, there's a rise of hope. There's a slight element of light at the end of the tunnel because a lot is happening and a lot will continue to happen. And for us in IFMA, we're not only committed to ensure that this toga is taken away through our renewed purpose, which speaks to capacity building. The thrust here is that the notion that bad maintenance culture should be treated as myth and energies should be channelled towards building a good maintenance culture. Jacinta Ubuco reporting for PLOS TV Africa. Thanks to Jacinta Ubuco for that. And now joining us, we have Sir Shegumad Dibayo, the president of the International Facilities Management Association. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. Let's start by talking about what exactly facility management is all about. A lot of people may not be familiar with the whole, with the world, with the terms. So what is it about and in what ways do we fall short mostly? Thank you for having me. It's World Facility Management Day and we're here to also see how much we could also enhance the advocacy around what Facility Management is all about. And that question is actually very apt. Facility Management, it's a process that integrates people, technology, and places together and ensure that you have a safe, conducive, and a healthy environment where you work, where you recreate. I mean your studio is also a facility. So it's about integrating people, places, using technology, innovation to ensure that people that work in that environment are not only safe, but it's also conducive and productive for them to work. Okay.  Clearly, I mean, you don't have to overflog the fact that our culture around maintenance, which speaks to management of facility, needs improvement, no doubt. And then a lot has happened in the past. And clearly, it's a fact that we fall short in keeping our environment very clean, better. But the point is that getting better in the areas of maintenance culture, for me, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. So it's a continuous search. And that's why, for us in Ifman Engineering Chapter, we take it upon ourselves to ensure that everyone takes responsibility of your immediate space. I mean, if you are conscious of your environment, excuse me, and you know that some things are not in order. For example, you have cable flying around in an environment. What it means is that there's an hazard that could cause an injury to the user of the space. So as a matter of fact, everyone takes responsibility of the space and ensure that space is conducive to work. But again, as a facility manager, you are a professional and you understand what is expected of you. So you need to exhibit that care, that professionalism in you. And in getting that done, you must follow some lay down principles. That will speak to global best practice. For example, Ifman Engineering Chapter, through our connection with Ifman Houston, we have 11 core competencies in facility management, which goes beyond just taking care of. I mean, it speaks to technology, it speaks to leadership. It speaks to operations and maintenance. It speaks to communication. It speaks to health and safety of the environment. So those are the core things that guide you to ensure that you have an excellent facility management and built environment. We know that facilities refers to places like homes, offices, airports, the malls. And during the COVID-19 pandemic, we're still in the COVID-19 pandemic. We're doing that onset from around March 2020. We know that most of these facilities have to be shot down. What were the challenges that facility managers faced? And even till now, what are the challenges they're facing? And in the light of the theme of the word facility management day, which is standing tall beyond the pandemic, what really is the future of facility management in the country? Okay. You see, the COVID-19 pandemic came in like a TV in the night and clearly affected our ways of life. I think that's what took us to the fact that we're all in a new normal. So if you look at the facility and going by the effect or the impact of COVID-19, activities dropped. So you have a lot of people out of job. But beyond that, because the facility also needs to be keep running, maybe at a low space now, you have some elements of people that works in the same facility. So the mall, for example, needs to be secured to still have a security guard there. That's a part of facility management. Upon closure of those facilities, and there is need for us to also reopen, you need to do a lot of cleaning, comprehensive, hardcore intensive cleaning in this case. So you may not leave the entire facility without activity, but you need to do some periodic cleaning in those facilities. So activities is a job for facility managers, less income, not much money as it were. But again, there are some, what I call, elements of work to be done to keep the facility up and running. So no doubt, activities is dropped because no more traffic going to the mall, for example. Or you still have some elements of people staying in that facility to keep it in that state you have it due to the pandemic. And you see, I would say the deferred glory as it were for any facility manager to take a break at this point in time and also get ourselves ready to take up demand to whenever we have a full bled of activities. But most of the facility managers who are quite proactive, what we did was to activate one physical element of the core competence, which is called business continuity and emergency preparedness. As a professional, that has to be around you because emergency won't tell you when it's going to happen. But we have a proper structure to be able to activate that. And I think that's what most of the professional facility managers activated. How did they activate that specifically? It was the application of that principle. Of course, business couldn't continue. So there are steps that you need to take when business is shutting down. Such as? Okay, the first step is to activate your plan around emergency preparedness, because there's connection. Business cannot continue due to emergency. So because you are prepared for emergency, you activate level one, level two, level three. The first level of that should be communication to the top hierarchy. That in view of this emergency, we can't continue the way we do before. So you get your stakeholders and communicate to them, this is the situation and this is the way to go. So you determine who comes to work, who doesn't come to work.  So that will help you to actually simulate that before you actually activate. And clearly, you will be able to now get in tire police and every stakeholder within our without to understand that this is the situation of the facility and this is the way to go about it. I'm sure this covers both big, large industries and medium and small skilling. Clearly, it does, because facility management is more of a built environment. It doesn't matter whether it's charged, whether it's stadium, whether it's cinema or whatever you. Again, you need to also apply them in line with the size and the scope of your operations. What's the message from IFMA as this day has been celebrated? The message is simply sustainability and then sustainability through resilience. I mean, we are steadily getting out of COVID-19 pandemic and that's why we are saying that we want to celebrate everyone that have been part of it. And again, too bad we are now having what I call a resurgence in view of the pronouncements of the Federal Advisory Committee. So the message is that we are out and we should just believe that this will be a thing of the past and we continue to strengthen our capacity to ensure that we survive this time. So I want us to quickly talk about facility management in line with you know, maintenance culture and how to avoid building collapse. Okay, facility management, maintenance culture, directly related. So if you manage your facility properly, you do a lot of good to that facility. For example, you enhance the value. If you don't have that culture, you are doing the service or damage to your facility. So I've been sure you need to have that sense of responsibility around maintenance culture. Now facility management is a platform to ensure that maintenance culture is not only implemented, but it's also sustained as it were. Now, if you don't maintain an asset, definitely it loses value. Now, if you look at a structure, for example, a building that is not properly maintained in line with the expected activities, then that facility will have a challenge. Okay, now because it's not properly built, doesn't mean you're not managing a facility properly. But what you need to do is that you must maintain the physical asset, which is a building properly and effectively well. Now building collapse has to do with the way it is structured, the way it's constructed. And that's why we on our path were so committed to the fact that we would like every player in that industry to bring facility managers into a project team from the beginning. It's purely sustainability. Because in the course of you building that facility, what you do is that it's cost effective for you to bring in a facility manager who tells you the type of materials from experience. Because when you build, you leave the site for your facility manager to handle. And if it's not part of you from inception, and it was a highlight of what we did discuss yesterday. And that's why I think we have an architect as our keynote speaker who spoke to the fact that it's important that we all work together in that industry to ensure sustainable environment. So facility managers are more important than we might actually be. I mean, clearly, you need to have us as you are, even from this inception, so that we'll be able to manage when you leave the site. So today is World Facility Managerial Day, and I did some finding on how to celebrate facility managers. And some of the things I came up with was that you need to find out who the facility manager is in your favorite spot, the place you love to go, the more you love to visit, find out who the facility manager is, appreciate them, recognize them. Isn't that so? Do you have more to add? Yes, I mean, you're very correct in that regard. And again, maybe we should also speak to the fact that advocacy, I mean, everyone should be responsible for your immediate space. In that case, we take it beyond the professionals. Fantastic. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, President Ifmar, Nigeria chapter. Thank you for speaking with us and looking forward to seeing you again. Thank you for having me. All right, this is where we wrap up, of course, the breakfast for today. Thank you so much for starting our Wednesday with us. Happy Ramadan. Yes, in advance. And we wish you a very, very brilliant day ahead. If you missed out on any of the discussions we had, remember to join us on our social media platforms at simply at plus TV Africa, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and our YouTube channel. I am Osao Gee, Ogmawan. And I am Annetta Felix. Bye-bye.


Hello and welcome. I'm Lynne Fries, producer of Global Political Economy, or GPE, Newstocks. Today, I'm joined by Perry's Robert Pollan. As part of Perry's ongoing global project to fight climate change, Pollan will be talking about just transition policies. Perry has long researched how robust just transition policies are imperative to advance a comprehensive global climate stabilization program that offers any serious prospect of success. Today, we look into evidence that these just transition policies should also be understood as an entirely realistic prospect for all high-income countries. This based on new Perry research findings released this February in the paper titled Fossil Fuel Industry Phase Out and Just Transition. This is a preliminary working paper that extends Perry's published studies on just transition programs in the United States into other major high-income economies, notably Germany, the UK, the European Union, and also Japan and Canada. Joining us from Massachusetts, Robert Pollan, is Distinguished University Professor of Economics and Co-Director of Perry, the Political Economy Research Institute. At the University of Massachusetts, I'm Hearst. Welcome, Bob. Thank you for having me, Lynn. I'm happy to be on. Bob, we'll be talking about Perry research findings on what's needed for fossil fuel industry dependent workers and communities to make a just transition from one kind of an economy to another. So let's start on why this is imperative for a successful climate stabilization plan. Yeah, so we face this situation where the IP's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change just put out another study Monday, which has summarized what they've been saying at least since 2018 that we have to basically be at zero fossil fuel emissions. By 2050, we have to be at a 50% reduction relative to 2005 by 2030, which is only six and a half years from now. Now, that means we have to dramatically reduce consumption of oil, coal, and natural gas to produce energy, and by 2050, phase it out basically entirely. So that is an imperative with respect to the climate crisis. Now, it obviously impacts a lot of different entities, organizations, governments, people, communities. So one of the big factors here is that there are people, not just rich shareholders of the fossil fuel companies or oil sheiks, there are ordinary people whose lives and communities are currently dependent on the fossil fuel industry. And so what do we do about that? What do we say about that? Well, as a basic simple matter of ethics, we have to be able to offer something like a fair transition, a just transition for all the workers and communities. That's an ethical imperative. But even if you have no ethics, even if you don't care at all about the people that are currently dependent on the fossil fuel industry and the communities, there's no way politically we can advance a robust and adequate fossil fuel phase out, in other words, an adequate climate stabilization program, unless we do something to address the needs of this community and these people because justifiably, they're going to put up political resistance.  But a big one was him saying, you know, the environmentalists don't care about you workers in West Virginia and Pennsylvania.  And whether that's true or not, it had a lot of resonance. And so it is absolutely just a mere political reality. We have to show that if we're going to phase out fossil fuels to save the planet, which we have to, we also have to mount a vigorous, robust just transition for the workers and communities whose jobs are going to get phased out. So in discussing what's needed for a just transition, you say in the paper that the first questions we need to ask are what should be the overall goal of just transition policies. And then the next question should be what specific measures need to be implemented to accomplish that. So briefly comment on that. So just transition policies have been around in various forms for a long time. This particular paper focuses on high income countries. I've done work in developing countries as well. But this one is focused on high income countries. So we have had phase out programs. Maybe the most advanced have been in Germany for decades because of the phase out of the coal industry in Germany. The United Kingdom has phased out its coal industry without doing a whole lot for the workers. In the United States, we've had just transition or transition, let's say policies around the workers who are impacted by changes in trade policy, opening a free trade. And for the most part, those policies have been minimal. They have not provided any significant support. In fact, in the U.S., what are called transition policies officially, unofficially by union members are called burial insurance.  Here's a few thousand dollars. And that is generally what has been provided to date, including in Germany, though somewhat better. So those policies have really focused on providing retraining to get for other jobs. They provided some minimal level of job placement support to find a new job, some modest level of relocation support if people have to move to get another job. And that's basically it. And even the European Union, with their Green Deal, has, at least in rhetoric, made very strong statements as to the significance, the centrality of just transition policies. Franz Timmermans, the vice chair of the European Commission, he himself says, you know, dress transitions are central. We need everybody's support for this movement out of fossil fuels. And yet, the policies that they are implementing to date are, they're better than others, but they're basically focused only on job search, retraining, and relocation. And what I've been advocating now, as you mentioned, thank you for several years, is the development of just transition policies that are much more robust. And it includes simple things. Not just job retraining, but a job guarantee. And not just any old job, but the jobs will pay, at least for a few years, the difference between any salary loss that a worker will have faced. And then finally, critically, is guarantees for workers' pensions. Because if we're phasing out this industry, obviously these companies are facing financial challenges. And we cannot assume that the first thing that they're going to do is guarantee their workers' pensions. And so the policy has to guarantee the pensions. I should just say, as a personal anecdote, I've had several interesting stories around this issue, but the most interesting, the most valuable, I had done a study in 2014, a big study on green transition for the United States, and in doing that study, we were looking for endorsements from respected people. And one of them was somebody named Bill Spriggs, who's the chief economist of the AFL-CIO. He was at the time, and he still is. And he's also a friend of mine. And we asked, I don't know, many people for endorsements. They all write nice things, except for Bill Spriggs. And he said, I can't endorse this because your transition policy is just fluff. It's just like nice words, platitudes, and it doesn't address the real needs of workers. And he was right. He was right. And at that time, I said, OK, you're right, Bill. And from now on, I'm going to take this issue much more seriously. So that's really how I got into the issue, recognizing that the kinds of things that I was saying, the kinds of things that were out there in the policy world, are not serious. We're talking about fossil fuel industry phase-out, and just transition and high-income economies. The working paper released this February covers Perry's study of Germany, the UK, the European Union, and Japan and Canada. It also connects the dots between all the above high-income economies and that of the United States. So talk more about read-throughs and your findings across high-income countries. Yeah. So basically in the U.S. as well, the just transition policies that are in place right now are slim to nothing. In the case of Canada, they had a big commission study. They interviewed workers. They interviewed people in the community. It was an official government commission. And again, they say nice things, but there is no commitment of anything to date, at least as far as I know, and I was looking at it pretty carefully. That's also true in Japan. Nice phrases, not much. UK, Germany better. Germany has, as I said, has had some significant commitment for a long time with respect to the phase-out of the coal industry in the Ruhr Valley. It's often held up as a really valuable example, and it is relative to the alternatives. But even there in Germany, the level of financial commitment is, and the types of commitments, there is no job guarantee. There is no pension guarantee. There is no wage guarantee. And those are the three critical things, I think, are central. So the work that I've been doing on this question, subsequent to my friend Bill Spriggs, fairly criticizing me, fairly criticizing me, was to figure out, well, what actually would constitute a robust just transition policy that you could present to workers in their communities and keep a straight face and saying that this actually is a just transition. So, you know, we've done it for several states. West Virginia is one of them. And so for the case of West Virginia, we go through this exercise. How many workers in the state are currently dependent on the fossil fuel industry? And the number in West Virginia is about 40,000. And not just coal miners, but people in the coal industry, everyone in the fossil fuel, in the oil and gas industry, plus everyone in ancillary sectors, anything to do that are feeding into these coal and oil and gas production. So, that's 40,000 people. So then we say, well, okay, 40,000 people, then what does a realistic phase out look like for those 40,000 people? If we assume by 2050, all their jobs are going to be gone. But that's critical that not all of their jobs are going to be gone tomorrow. They're going to be gone over a generation, basically, by 2050. So, you know, when we calculate the rate of annual job loss and incorporate the demographics of the age levels of the workers, so we're able to take account of voluntary retirements, what we're really looking at is about 1,400 workers per year who are going to lose their jobs and want another job. And so, the focus of the study then is, okay, we're going to give these people a guarantee of a new job, guarantee them a wage equivalent to what they're making now and guarantee their pensions. And in addition to the other thing, I'm not against helping people with job search, retraining, or relocation. It's just, those should be seen as supplemental to, yes, you will have a job. Yes, you will not face a significant income loss. And yes, you will not lose your pension. That's the critical things. So, we do all that, and we take account of these workers and how much they're making now. We also do this as part of a green transition in West Virginia. And we say, well, yes, West Virginia is going to be getting investments to build a clean energy economy, and that's going to create jobs. And we estimate that that will create 25,000 jobs in the state. Meanwhile, we're losing about 1,400 jobs in the state. So, one simple way to think about a transition is, well, as many as possible, move people from the fossil fuel industry into the emerging nascent green energy industry. And so then we did all that, and we said, okay, you know what, it's going to cost about $40,000 per year per worker to do everything. And that ends up being, when we added up for the 1,400 workers per year, it ends up being equal to about 0.2% of the GDP of West Virginia. And this is the most fossil fuel dependent region in the country. So, it's 0.2%. When I've done the same exercise for the whole United States, the cost as a share of the overall economy, as a share of GDP, is one-tenth that of West Virginia, 0.002%. Yeah, two-one hundredths of 1%. So, this is eminently affordable, even in West Virginia. You know, the West Virginia is the test case because the costs proportionally will be higher. Anyway, so those are the main results. And so the point that we conclude with is this just transition, a robust just transition is viable and it is the ethical right thing to do. I should note reviewers that the U.S. findings you refer to are based on studies of just transition programs Paris published for the U.S. states of California, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maine, Colorado, Washington state, and New York state. So, the West Virginia study is one of a series that Paris has published on eight states and on the U.S. economy overall. This paper released this February, the West Virginia Just Transition Program features prominently as a case study drawn from Paris research findings. Why so much focus on West Virginia? It's like if you can tell a story that's reasonable for West Virginia, you can tell a story basically for any place.  You know, Trump got 70% of the votes in West Virginia in 2016 and again in 2020, 67%. And a lot of his appeal is, you know, he's against all these environmentalists who want to take away our jobs. So, how can we tell a story that is convincing, that is, you know, really credible for the workers in the communities in West Virginia? And that really was our aim. And I think, you know, who knows in the end, but we did have success in the sense that we did present this in accordance with the Mine Workers Union and the overall leadership of the union movement, AFL-CIO in the state. We were commissioned by a wonderful organization called Reimagine Appalachia. So it is really trying to think about not just West Virginia, but the four states, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky and West Virginia, all transitioning out of their dependence on fossil fuels and into a new clean energy economy. They certainly can do it. And if we can do it there, again, we can do it anywhere. Bob, as we sum up, round off on some of the implications and conclusions of your findings on just transition programs in high-income economies. Again, you know, West Virginia has a very high concentration of fossil fuel workers. Ten times the level relative to the overall country, the U.S. economy. And so, again, the implication is actually analytically, financially, it is easy to do a robust, fair transition that is not, quote, burial insurance. That it is treating people with respect, understanding that their livelihoods are dependent. This is not the same as if you're a shareholder of a fossil fuel company. If you're a shareholder of a fossil fuel company and you know the company is going to be phased out, well, sell your shares and buy something else. And the fossil fuel companies last year made $200 billion, the sixth biggest. So it's a fine time to sell and recognize that this is going to be a phase out and it's not going to affect your home, it's not going to affect your pension, it's not going to affect anything about your life if you're a shareholder of one of these companies.  Your livelihood, your community is, you know, is facing a threatening of ending all the things that you're used to. And this has to be seen as a front and center critical feature of any overall climate program.  Those are good starters, but an equally important starter is to think about the workers in communities who are going to be faced major negative impacts unless there is a Just Transition program. This then brings us back to the point you made at the open of our conversation on why Just Transition programs are so imperative, not only on ethical grounds, but for achieving the level of political support needed to move onto a viable global climate stabilization path. In other words, for achieving the political support to phase out the burning of fossil fuels to produce energy and to replace the global fossil fuel energy infrastructure with the zero emission renewables dominant infrastructure. This is a major, major challenge. I mean, we've seen what happened even with the Biden administration which overall in my opinion has been better on these issues than I would have thought they were going to be. But they did a major backsliding just this past week or last week when they agreed to allow the development of the oil exploration in Alaska on public land, which they, you know, Biden had said no way I'm never going to do this. Well, somehow now he's doing it. So obviously he was intensively lobbied and we have to be able to fight back. And one of the tools for fighting back is to say to the workers and their communities, you know this is a program, a Just Transition program for you and that you do not face a this loss of income employment, pensions that would be devastating for people's livelihoods. Among other corporate tactics to block the phasing out of the fossil fuel industry we see the financing card get played. The argument being in the case of a Just Transition that, oh, we can't afford it. So for high income countries this study tables evidence that effectively shows that argument just does not hold water. Is that a key takeaway? That is the key takeaway. I mean, again, I think a lot of people say, yes, definitely Just Transition, we're all for it. You know, as I said, you know, Franz Timbermans made that quite explicit and in the documents of the European Green Deal it's all in there now. That is a new development but it's in there. But the point is what does it really mean and if we're really going to do it in a way that protects people's livelihoods and communities you know, is the cost just outrageous, unaffordable and the answer is clearly no. Again, if you can do it in West Virginia you can do it in Canada you can do it in the UK and if we're talking about you know, in the US overall two one hundredths of one percent of GDP you don't even notice it. In West Virginia it's ten times more as a share of GDP that means it's two tenths of one percent. These are funds that are available. I mean, just in the last year the subsidies for fossil fuel companies when the price of oil went up due to the Covid shortages and the war in Ukraine fossil fuel subsidies doubled from about five hundred billion to one trillion dollars. So five hundred billion dollars for subsidizing fossil fuel companies when we're supposed to be facing them out, that was found immediately. There was no question. You've been informing policymakers at the federal level and holding town hall meetings across the United States. Do you find you're getting much traction? Well, actually I've been in discussions even with people in the White House so yeah, I think so. It's not you know, it's not easy because obviously this isn't simply a matter of oh, that sounds good, that's logical there are huge interests involved and I'm sure the fossil fuel industry itself recognizes that if there is a robust set of just transition policies well then that undermines then their own lobbying in behalf of themselves and there's, because they're saying hey, we're the ones that are keeping this economy alive there was a piece in the Financial Times a couple weeks ago with respect to this doubling the $200 billion in profits and the CEO of Chevron whose name I can't remember now he just says fossil fuels run the world and we're going to keep running the world we're running the world now we're going to run the world in 10 years we're going to run the world in 20 years he just out and out says it hey, then you know what then we're facing a climate disaster there's no question about it and at the town hall level do you see resistance building one of the tests is I've presented this to working people union meetings and so forth and there has been serious criticism and I understand it I mean the the most honest telling criticism I've gotten is gee professor, these are great numbers they look really good and you're going to keep writing your papers and you've got a job and you've got a pension and you've written these numbers and that's fine but nobody's going to pay attention and we're not going to get this policy and we're going to lose our jobs and what am I supposed to say to that the best thing we can say is you know people are fighting on your side including you on this show by having me on thank you what we have seen let's say the most dramatic I would say traction has been in California where our study, our equivalent study was commissioned by the union movement in California by the actual union movement and about 20 unions explicitly endorsed the program that we had laid out including the oil refinery workers the oil refinery workers union endorsed our study and the leader wrote a brilliant article in the Los Angeles Times saying you know we know just transition policies are usually a bunch of just rhetoric that mean nothing and we forget we know that but if we're going to be serious this program laid out by the Perry researchers is real and we endorse it and if this is the kind of thing that our policy makers are willing to put in place then we're for a just transition and we know we have to get off fossil fuels this California study is talking about and for that matter all Perry studies on just transition programs are available online at Perry.umass.edu and that includes the new paper on high income economies we've been featuring in today's conversation for today however we're going to have to leave it there for now Robert Poland thank you thank you very much Lynn and thank you for joining us in this segment on fossil fuel industry phase out and just transition with Robert Poland


Mr. Chairman, dear Jill, dear David, ladies and gentlemen, This summer, 50 years ago, I came the first time to France. I went to the summer school of Lysée Carnot in Cannes and I fall immediately in love with the country. Also, because I strongly remember the fate of my family, my ancestors had come from France as French Huguenots and So in a certain way a circle got closed The following year, 1964, I went with my form to Paris One morning when we visited the center of Paris, I saw President Charles de Gaulle from a distance of two meters when he left with his wife the service in Notre Dame What is, yeah And during that time in Paris One night we wanted to go out We were in the eastern part of Paris Long distance to go to the more interesting places and When we left the USO still on the other side of the street we discovered in the window four or five girls in the second floor Looking down to us and with our very poor French we started to try a conversation with them and all of a sudden a Man appeared in the window and we were ready to to get on flight But he said what's going on and we said we would like to invite the girls But one of them is saying she is engaged and they cannot come and then the men said From which country are you from Germany you girls go down. I have been a forced labor Man in Germany. They treated me. Well, you go out with the Germans So two minutes later the four girls appeared on the street We had a wonderful evening and I Tell you we brought back the girls unharmed Wonderful unforgettable evening what has changed in the meantime in 50 years the great success story for me is That the people have come together. This is an incredible story. I remember the first years when I traveled France they kept a distance even when you spoke their language Today, it's completely different the lessons of history are understood in both countries and the French have made an extraordinary move also, thanks to German German French cooperation on the level of use the exchange of the cities and But the knowledge of languages is bored 20% of Germans Say they Understand French or speak French which I doubt and on the French side 15% say it. I Doubt that also The problem for me in the long run and and this is also my personal experience in professional life. I Find that the Paris society The elite is self-centered still These are Following analysis is about 10,000 people Who over? Generations have the control of the country for me. This is still a problem this Inward-looking Part of French society So there is a big gap between what I'm saying about the behavior of the French Population and of the political class of the country in comparison the the German society Still is more open When you are good enough you can make in Germany still a Fantastic careers from from bottom up to top. I give you two three examples Caught back who just resigned as minister present of Ryan and Pellet in it By by training by formation and electrician He told me once as he as with this country is bordering France He said impossible for me to make a comparable career in France a second example René Obermann CIO of telecom He started to study two three semesters then he started a career on its own and today is a Chairman of one of the most important Industries of Germany and the third example the former chairman of Deutsche Bank Hilmar copper an apprentice in the in the bank one day making the full career up to see a CEO I don't see comparable careers in France In other context, I will come back to that What I observe as a journalist at the same time over this long period is that the picture of France in Germany is Getting less precise During the last years whenever the French were Engaged in military things a good a part of my colleagues starts to write and continues to write Gordon Assion this from a German perspective is not a very nice expression and from my Professor and fry book where I studied romance languages. I know that a Gordon Assion Was used by the goal only once it is nothing The French would say themselves. So I tell my colleagues in Germany be cautious be aware be sensible and Treat treat the the French well So I observe a certain rise of cliches and Maybe it has to do with a Development when I gave you that introduction because it's it shows the difference such such a situation today unthinkable because to meet Somebody from the other nation is no problem today but When you are getting used to it, it can be boring over the time when you have no new ideas No new initiatives and that is for me one of the problems of French-German partnership these days I observed in Germany during the last weeks very often the title Marriage door golden marriage Be cautious with it When you are married 50 years you have not very much time before you so This is not a very good picture What I what I see is that The exchange in civilization is going down Much less interest for the literature of the other much less Interest for for film when I was 20 years old La nouvelle vague the French film was very important for me. I don't see something Comparable only recently this success, but this is another story This film about the handicapped Yes, yes, which was in in France an extraordinary success, but also in in Germany in terms of film and books, but this is a Singular case and also music Chanson In the 60 in the radio in TV You could hear it every day today. I could wait for you with you for hours Listening to a German radio station to hear a French song. So Something has happened not to the not to the advantage as my the speaker before me said There are two very different countries to to very to very different Nations and I would compare the job here. I have another accent like than you I See I see a very important role for the two countries to organize Them stamps for the future the context of Europe is important, but in certain situations. It's too large I think there is an ongoing obligation for the French and the Germans to organize their daily cooperation So in a to put it in a picture It is as if you work In a cathedral to rebuild it to restore Cathedral Whether you take rames or a race or Colonia you have to work on it every day and it's the same With the French and the Germans You never can be sure that things are going automatically. You have to organize it. It's a daily Job like it might happen in elbows industries where the Germans and the French with the others are working together or in the German French Brigade For me the French and this is Lisa compliment. They are the stronger Europeans They are thinking strong more strongly than the Germans in historical categories Where and they have the will to lead As we have seen on several occasions during the last years If I would be a French I would be really disappointed about the Germans in military Things and I fully understand that they are now looking For closer cooperation with the Great Britain or with United States and In Germany When the more Mali operation started one thing has been overlooked That day had a bigger amplitude because Not only in Mali a military operation from the French started But also in Somalia and an aircraft or an elicoptet area carrier was At the coast so the French unfortunately the operation in Somalia failed, but you could see the will and You have to understand from the German side French symbolism to show that one is able to have two very delicate military operations in another continent Thousands of miles apart This has not been seen in Germany, but I find it important that the French at least wanted to give that signal Which was a signal for their own country, but also for the other powers in Europe and I'm sure that the Americans Have clearly seen it, but it was not discussed in Germany The deficit in military terms in in Germany goes on. It's still a consequence of the Third Reich We have we had the tendency For long period to overdo in military things ending in the catastrophe of Hitler and now we are going to the to the other side and the old Quotation from churches seems to be true you have either them Here or down at your feet. So What I want is that my country finds a middle position in these things And and this means for me to be with the others Remember 20 20 years ago when the Germans made the first attempts to be in Normandy when Allied landing was commemorated Now practical situations to have Normandy in today would be there and Germany is not there and I personally regret that deeply on the other hand We have a still a liking to go our own way when it's in our interest, I think for Europe it was a Near to a catastrophe that after Fukushima the Germans Took their own conclusions and did not care about Europe not about France, but also not about the energy problems of Europe and I say that because Europe has started as you said in the 1950s with cooperation in energy and This was a clear will to overcome the national The national Position in energy energy questions, which very often had led to wars between Germany and France Very briefly German economy economical dynamics Are an opportunity for for Europe, but also danger because we have We have problems to To to explain it to others The fact that the Greece Greeks are showing the German swastika is clearly showing a lack of communication And I think this is a German problem all over the places. I take that very seriously because I see I Mentioned the Inward-looking political class of Paris I See the the danger for Europe there and particularly for French-German relationship that the French society in a certain way is in a blockade France is not able to make the necessary steps to reform the its economy and The social status all governments whether they are from the left or from the right fear the street this is very clear and So unemployment in France is rising and What you can gain in industries the Germans have the double value of the French 26% of our National wealth is coming from industrial production in France only half of it and I fear that this Gap is widening Have I still time left some minutes? Few minutes. Yeah, I hurry up More important for me are the changes in Demography this is for me the most serious problem In Europe, I give you two figures in the old European economic community We had 180,000 Muslims in the mid 80s Now in the European Union the figure is nearly 20 million This is a massive change Which neither the governments nor the populations are Realizing and their consequences there is a tromblum on the terror in the societies, but Probably the biggest problem and this may Bring us France in Germany in different directions migration for France is coming from the Arab countries and from Francophonie african and the Germans are getting the people from turkey these are two completely Different directions we have in Germany now three million Turks or many of them have passports now, but three million and Foreign population in Germany within a very short period is up to 12 percent at a population of 82 million now and In big cities Berlin are the big towns Every second child now is born from a family where One or two parents have a migration background So a big challenge To bring those people into the society in terms in terms that the society is functioning By the way, the the Berlin airport problem has to do with it when you have not a Working force from from one single country, but from 70 80 nations You must construct much more simple you cannot be that soft Sophisticated like the Germans want to be and every day on the airport five changes in construction. This cannot work and You can see that it is a problem for a population There was a book last year from a former member of the Berlin government He wrote a book with the title Germany is on the way to disappear meaning these changes through demography Nearly two million copies of the book were sold this year From Berlin from a district a mayor wrote a similar book Buschkowski 200,000 copies within several weeks. So you see it's a real concern for the population and A good part of my colleagues in the German National Press says these are right-wing arguments don't listen to them I find it's a grave mistake not to allow open discussion Okay, I finish here on demography and I come to the end of my of my remarks Germany and France as the nations are undergoing deep changes and Nobody knows where this will end up it's a risk and It's an opportunity, but you have to to form it Just to wait and to let let it happen will not keep the lines the way it it worked over a period of 50 years the French have make a point saying that only cooperation can organize The future of Europe in the world. I agree to it the Germans has have to accept the military role also in the future and and Let me finish with Jessica and Elmo Schmidt They met recently and They came to the conclusion that no No country of the two can lead But there is an obligation to work together. Thank you