Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always like he does every week is my co-host Tyler. What's up, brother? How you doing? I'm mad. Good to be here. Good to see everybody Good to have you back. Also joining us this week for the first time. Happy to have him on the show Sean Sayre Scholar Professor Legion of the first Prince Enthusiast who is going to be our subject matter expert today to take us through this not real army. How you doing, sir? I am doing extraordinarily well, and it's great to be here This is going to be the event that defines my life into before and after so thank you I'm I look I'm sure you're gonna win everybody over to the Legion of the first Prince today and They're gonna demand demand that we have you back on the show So I have no I have no worries and also your hobby space is excellent. So I'm in for that already I love this. I love the table you're working like your box your boxes on the shelves there behind classic Super classic. It's great. Got the debt off in just in frame there. The world-famous that's off You can't see the shelves up here with all the built-casts. Maybe some people some non Have my non-casts here. So if I couldn't swing it about Guts that's all good. So yes, we are gonna talk about leeching of the first Prince today and Get into it. So what is this army? Who is this army? When is this army? Why why is this army? But of course first off the news Tyler, what do you got? Sir rumor engine Feels like for the hunter time a 40k thing Yeah, we're gonna talk about that more in a minute, but yeah, yeah, it's 40k thing next Next LVO preview. So we got that going on tomorrow or if you're in London, that'll be 6am GMT on the 28th your time Tempe and Pacific strange time. It would still be tomorrow for them if they're in the UK right now, Tyler Because it's tomorrow in the UK right now Fair enough. That's very fair. Thank you for clarifying that You're actually lying to people if they're on the east coast Because if they're in the eastern time zone, I suppose or central then technically it's happening during the on on Friday Morning, and it's currently Wednesday still. So that's where you're actually a liar for those people in like Newfoundland They're in big trouble So I don't know if you have any images from this we've seen I do I have the little image up of the Five things that are getting previewed Okay, and there I couldn't find the one that they shared on Facebook and an image that actually didn't look like crap of the outline of the three miniatures or whatever So I don't have that but I know they have three miniatures and like one of them is clearly the avatar of Kane from the updated Eldar range so fine, and then there's another 40k guy in there clearly and then there's one we think is one of ours Um Here's my statement. I read this image right here as the following, okay? I'm gonna I'm gonna read from left to right top to bottom everybody with me. Here we go I'm read this as 40k AOS Basically 40k basically 40k basically 40k Okay, mm-hmm so I'm not too Excited about what we're gonna see during this preview. Yeah Maybe we'll get a book announcement. That's what I'm thinking for IDK and fire slayers Yeah, like hopefully we get the combined dwarf tome that rumors been floating around today So maybe that's what will actually happen instead of just a standard fire slayers tome But like if we just see here's an IDK book. Here's a fire slayers book. Yes, they're next you all knew it Okay, let's get back to the 40k stuff and it'd be like all right great Well, they had in one of the images that I had seen an ironclad and you know the silhouette of an ironclad So I I personally hope they're just screwing with us throwing that in there You know just kind of leaning into the hole. We're gonna get a soup book with KO and fire slayers, but yeah So probably nothing too exciting Look like a knight on hero though that silhouette by the three images that we could be I saw people also say they thought it was an LRL hero. So, you know Where do we are due for we are due it's 2022 and we don't have an LRL book yet. I don't know what's happening So there you go If we I just think we don't get some serious AOS announcements here We're due for some love so I'm gonna be expecting a lot over the next few months or into the summer My my particular guess is it is all 40k all the time Until we get to adept a con and then for probably like a month after that as the rest of the release is trailing We catch up to what they previewed at adept con. I just think 40k is so far behind right now You know, they're like they they had so many backlog codices and releases and Everything that they had planned fully to get out last year and because of all the shipping nonsense It all got pushed back. I just I have to believe that that we're just not gonna get much in the way of attention for a while So curious to see if anyone has plotted out the releases on the calendar for like the past five or six years Is there a 40k season deal? Is there an AOS? Not sure if anyone's done that I mean, you could you could map it easily because there is The lexicon or whatever keeps all the exact release dates month and year of all the different books in both 40k And AOS so you could certainly plot it. I think it would be pretty Just from like my sense of it, this isn't science this is just my sense of it it would be pretty jumbled Right because I think in general though. Well, they'll often be spikes You know like around an addition change or something like that, but it's pretty jumbled in together There's also a website, I think age of miniatures calm where they're tracking everything did a pretty good job. You have the last couple of years So, all right, Nurgle fact nothing really in there that it's too surprising. Yes Like I brought up the Nurgle fact here so we can just have it on the screen The answer that I know a lot of people did not want to get but that in fact three feculant normals are just Not giving you nine points or just give me three points one point each contagion points Okay, if you ever I'm pretty sure this is one of those things that when we reviewed it I said you can either agree with that the obvious rule that it's gonna be one per tree or you can be wrong That's your choice Welcome to being wrong if you legitimately thought That the real rule was some kind of weird multiplicative thing That like that wouldn't be prima facie obvious and they wouldn't have put an example text to say as much You are out of your minds Like guys, I love you I know you want all those contagion points and I love people justify their belief in wrong things in weird ways Like people said but then the summoning won't be any good and I'm like Yeah Yeah That's right. That's exactly what they were gonna do so Just like I'm not trying to beat people who got the answer they didn't want here when they're down But like obviously just that GW writes rules in the way that they think the simplest Reading of them is how they think they're gonna work The rule is never supposed to be Wait, but if you parse the sentence exactly like this and then read it like this in this situation Then this is the real rule. No No To be fair and hey, what did a good job of pointing this out? You know does fecula normal do what it unequivocally says it does for generating contagion? No, you were supposed to divine what we meant and ignore what words mean again. I Disagree with hey was take here like I understand why they said that but like when they wrote it They read it as one fecula normal. It doesn't matter. It's one per there you go and So whatever Anything else from this grab your attention Most definitely the biggest thing that got my attention was what was not in here And that is that host of nerglings on the guo were not changing the mouse Which means it is just a weapon profile Which means it can be a melee weapon that is affected by another fact or a spell and it's 15 hits 15 attacks From the nerglings which stays pretty solid until I think it suffers seven wounds and then it drops to like 10 Yeah, and then we've got that wonderful grr command ability that doesn't fight on top bracket. So And Legion, you know, he's getting the four foul blade. I was just about to say I thought I have a feeling We're gonna have a use for those nerglings in just a little while. Stay tuned Yeah, yeah, I Still need to finish up my guo and I've got all the nerglings from all the the nergal kits And I'm gonna stack them up to where they're holding this massive sword and that's gonna be my four foul blade Amazing, I love it. Yes, that's very funny It's funny what is a crew or a mount and what isn't and sometimes those aren't always intuitive. I'll completely agree with that I The fact that they had to clarify which one is corrupted like which one is is Command points and which one are contagion points that I completely understand their their need to clarify that why they use the same acronym I don't know. I don't know like how did we get through all those levels of reading editing and playtesting and no one was like Hey guys, which one did you mean here because this is kind of confusing? Yeah, it does make me question process a bit But you know right yeah other than that all good stuff then the noxious next just does something now again It does what we all kind of expected it to do So, you know, yeah, good stuff all fine Straight forward. I just want to give a shout out to I think it's Davis for Davis Ford He does a was reminders. He did a nice update to it So getting all the recent in the nergal fact this whole light white dwarf info white dwarf OBR info I got that all updated a was reminders comm ongoing amazing resource in the community So thank you man for your great work on that That's all I had anything else. No Like news section today. Let's keep moving. All right So let's move to some pick of the week Sean. You're the guest. What would you like to share with everybody? Oh goodness now? I got this cleared with Vince beforehand. I'm actually going to pick something from his show from his channel It's not part of Warhammer weekly. Um But Vince did a series of tabletop history videos way back when in 2016 when the world was a bright sunny place and things were different and They're they're wonderful. Vince kind of goes back and looks at Starting in 1975 and he goes through the development of games workshop and not just looking at GW But looking at other minis as well the development of wargaming And I'd recommend as an historian that folks take a look at this. I came into Age of Sigmar Starter second edition I hadn't done any sort of tabletop wargaming at all my community where I grew up wasn't big So I'm glad that I had these to sort of catch up and I think it's a great resource for us And hopefully people start watching them and commenting on and Vince will make more of them See what we can do Thank you very much. Those were very fun to do and there are The early history of GW is absolutely fascinating And those early editions. I think yeah, it's it's they were fun to make they were just time consuming I've had a lot of people asking me to continue them But it's just a time-consuming thing to make because it takes a lot of research and stuff. So it's it's but we'll see Tyler what do you got for pick of the week? Got a few so the Stormkeep The Stormcast guys did an excellent state-of-the-game video and problems and the proposed solutions. I Thought they did a nice job of outlining. What are some of the current issues? Some of their solutions had some disagreements with but they had some good ideas In part on solutions. So definitely check that out Then warp charge gaming and Oscar Lars the amazing painter Oscar Lars and these coasts They just did some live battle reports that they put online For their tournament league, they're just gonna start at battlegrounds in Virginia Warp charge gaming is the YouTube channel. So they've got three they did three rounds over the last weekend Yeah, really good bad reps watch some of those over the weekend and then finally one only a was shorts Dan has Made a big update to his website a was shorts calm So the tournament results spreadsheet that he's been tracking on an ongoing basis for a while now he has linked all of the List for four plus wins results from events around the world So he's created a different pages on his website kind of a big one and then you could go into like storm cast Here's the storm cast list for the four one and five oh wins Yeah, it's it's an amazing resource. He's gonna add commentary to it in the coming months So definitely check that out Very nice. I got awesome. There we go. Geez my camera would not focus properly and it was really driving me insane at any rate the For myself My pick of the week is for our buddy to plus tough And he tells it's in his video talking about why cities of Sigmar has such potential and I agree with him. I think it remains One of the most interesting armies around they could do so much of it They could just keep putting out cities of Sigmar books forever as we've said on this show many times I hope it gets more attention. I hope we see some manifestation of the dawn ringer Crusades So I hope once we do get back to AOS releases that it's in there Doug talks about a lot of cool ideas and why the army is really interesting and so Go check it out. All of that is linked down in the video description. All right Very good moving through it Okay, let's talk about some hobby time gentlemen Sean what you've been working on you got a lot of boxes around there. What's what's being painted? Oh, I'm just I just collect more hammer boxes actually Yeah, fill up all the cubbies in the shelf posting those reddit pics of my flunders. Um, I'm actually working on a couple Soul grinders. I was miffed that they did not get any point drops But I have some custom bases. I'm working on I did some conversions on them Put a slanish if you can tell put the slanish pieces from the keeper here Some corn things on this guy and the second one over here. I did the legs from a megath lord For his claw. So I wanted to have a little bit of something from all four of the chaos factions or one legion and so those guys are going to take a little while but I'm using the Vallejo that'll color paints that this guy Vince Ventrila said I should try and they're awesome in the airbrush So thank you for that good stuff. Hopefully they'll get done some time within the next month. Nice. Oh Soul grinder how I love you and wish that you were Good, but I think we'll we'll see some defense of it today.  So I think can you modify the question have you commissioned someone to paint anything? Yeah, I have something in progress. Yeah, it's got to be quite a while But yeah, I do have something in progress. So got some progress on the important front there. Yeah the Vince we need to talk after the show and get a game plan, but we are finally ready to launch these battle plans these fan favorite general sandbook has general handbook battle plans translated into 3.0 very excited about this so and Thanks everybody who has been involved in this project We've had like four one-dayers over the past couple of months around the world We've had just a ton of games and play testing of these missions So we're hoping that they're gonna work out. Well, and but you know really interesting the feedback we'll get on them Yeah, so we are ready to rock and roll But Vince we need to talk about how we're gonna launch these things awesome. Very good. I look forward to the conversation All right for myself I've had quite a bit of hobby time most of what I've been working on is still the Actually just finished him, but I still have his base to go Is one of the miniatures one of the sort of larger scale miniatures from? Miniacs upcoming Kickstarter And I've been further putting off working on my display board So that's the basic goal there is to continue just not working on that.  I need to assemble for it I just don't want to do it, but he's all done. He's over there. I'm pretty happy with him I also finished up a little Demon Prince may have been working on a lot of different videos Just grinding them back to back to back to back to really try to up the video quality and play around with Trying to make videos that aren't bad. That's the basic goal. So there we go All right, I'm sorry. I don't have anything to hold up to the camera today. What's that? I did forget one thing And so Sean recently participated in the Great Plains Masters Imitational Yeah, I started by our friend Mitchum Ernst More than acquaintance. I haven't had a chance. I guess Mitchum, you know, I don't know each other that well yet so but he seems like an awesome guy he's part of the Oklahoma scene and Yeah, they're doing this and Sean can tell us a little bit about it. I know eight players Yeah, I'd love to so it was an eight player event that happened on Saturday. Um, it's it seems small But the way the Great Plains Masters works, it's Folks from Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma and Missouri So if you're in those states and you're playing You know get a hold of me and I'll get you in touch with us We've got this award, but it's the season last from February until Until October and I'm sorry to say that Tyler here went three and oh, but One day event, but it's pre-season starting so he can't kill that So much crap about whether I was going to mention that on this show Like I haven't I haven't done that. Well, I've sort of missed a while. I haven't gone to that many tournaments And I was good. You did well. Well, you just have to do well again. I know you Appreciate that. Yeah, oh, but it's uh, it's a great because it collects your score over the season So I ended up going 16-1 with Legion of the first prince in that and I got a thing with Sprint second Under Paul Wright who of course is a beast out here when it comes to AOS with his deepkin And um, so it was eight players. It was great because Highly competitive players. They knew their game. They knew their armies But they were all chill and laid back with single elimination, which Is fun as hell like I'm sorry. It's just awesome because of one even one and done And so it gets rid of a lot of stress, you don't have to worry about rankings But it was just a great time. It ended up being taken by jove you sick Running cities of sigmar. Um, he's the one who took me out in round two because I made a couple mistakes I was like, I'm not going to play the center objective game with those Um, uh, phoenix guard and the frost on phoenix and I ended up being two points shy because around three and and he took the game But it was really good. Uh, what was the mission and that that was um It was the three in the middle. I want to say survival of fittest where you start far back Is this the small deployment in the quarters? Yeah, and uh, our first blood Yeah, um, and so it was it was a lot of fun. Uh, great event. Again, if you're in the midwest Get ahold of us. It's wonderful. I would love to see different regions do this And then we could have some sort of larger event where the winners from those regions get together Um, at a sort of a national level, I think that'd be great. But it was a wonderful experience rarely was Very cool then Very nice. Excellent. Yeah, it's doing great work there Awesome sounds cool as Uh, all right gentlemen. Well, are we ready then to pivot to a little discussion? On the legion of the first prince Need We don't have a choice. We have to it was a lie.  Of course, we're going to Let's do this. Here we go chaos demon soup The legion of the first prince. Okay, before I get into any of my summary or anything.  You're the loft stand. Take us through it What what do you what's your what would be your summary of this army? Why do you like it? What do you think sets it apart? What's interesting in it about it other than the fact that it's not a real army doesn't exist on the Website and doesn't have its own book And do this is that's just all set up. I knew it Well, I feel like I'm going to sell you on this army fence. That's my goal tonight I don't know how well I'm going to do. Um, you're already making a demon prince. You're already painting it So I know that deep down you want to play this Um, I do like cast demons Yeah, Legion the first prince um to me I think the first thing that well first thing attracted me to chaos demons was the lord So before legion even came out I was collecting the four chaos guys the four chaos demon sides And so when this a legion's came out and right the ever chosen and I think it's february of 2020 I was just like sweet. I get to play with all my toys in one thing Um, and that's when it was the wild west and you could bring in anything the demon keyword Which included archion and included all of the uh the vermin lords which was a lot of fun actually Being able to use kairos to cast the spell to jump one around when it was a blast Um, and things have changed a little bit, but the core mechanics the core leaders abilities have stayed the same Bella cores become central. Um, which I think is important and she's has a model that's worth it But the narrative I think to me is what was really awesome about the chaos guys in general because they are us Right, they exist because we exist because of our emotions and our excesses and whatever these different feelings that we are And these these things that we create the chaos gods And so therefore we can never be completely free of the chaos gods because we'll never be free of ourselves It is the defining thing that makes us human that also creates them Um, and so we're constantly fighting against manifestations of ourselves So the narrative just hooked me right away. Um, and then I was like wait, I get to play with these things Um, and of course I picked corn demons from my first army because it was early in 2.0 And I didn't want to have to learn magic. I was like, there's a whole phase. I don't have to learn That sounds awesome to me Let me just do with moving and shooting and moving and killing moving in melee is all I had to deal with Right. Um, and so from there I branched off to all these different chaos demons Um, but being able to run them together um in an allegiance that Actually doesn't have a lot of rules. Um, it doesn't have a lot of lead disabilities and to me That's a plus because you're looking at the war scrolls And you're using the scrolls and you're looking at the mission. So for instance competitively, I'll look at the mission pack And what I do with a lot of other armies is I say, okay How does this unit work in relationship to the lead disabilities? So like for instance corn It makes a lot of sense to run 30 bloodletters and corn in a unit because you have the wrath of corn bloodthirster Who's going to give them reroll hits 30 of rerolling hits sounds great But then you say wait a minute There's blood time and if I take three tens then I get a blood time And so there's sort of this tension with uh when you're picking your units for your army between What am I getting from my allegiance abilities? And what am I going to be wanting to do on missions? What's going to play that's at most optimally and so with the legions Strip down the lead disabilities You don't have to worry about that tension and you're able to sort of bring in all these different war scrolls And find synergies that you wouldn't normally find Um, and so I think it's just a great army that has all the tools you need It's it can play be played very many different ways. Um, there is no there is no the list I'm looking at you Rob. Um, and you can uh And it's going to shift with the meta really easily and what what I mean is when we go from the ghp now Where we're in monster heavy meta, which you can monster manage all day with this You can do four for behemoths and be perfectly fine If we go to like a horde meta it has all the tools it needs to shift to that You go to a small hero meta. It's got all those tools that you need So I think it's an extraordinarily versatile Army and I highly recommend people give it a shot Okay, all right. Okay. Very nice pretty good case. I love the narrative case especially. Yeah, it's good. All right. I got Go ahead Okay, I got I got I got deep I've got more no, it's good. All right So here's sort of my summary of the thing see what you think of it So it's a soup army with many play styles I think this is one thing one thing that Sean you and I had a rousing discussion before the show Everybody's not privy to this but there's that we're going to have a full-on oxford debate later But that's fine. We'll we'll get to that um But one thing I think we're completely in agreement on is that this army has been cast as only a control army And that's the only functional way it works and I don't think that Uh I don't think that's true. I think this actually has quite a few different play styles And and the reason that I say it's it's an interesting army and I I do agree with you that it can be reactive Is this army effectively has more War scrolls than any other army Okay, something like 80 some war scrolls. I don't remember the exact count. I apologize, but it's it's you know it's any demon unit from corn zinch Nurgle slanesh slaves to darkness as long as it doesn't have the ever chosen keyword Right, so okay. In other words not archion for obvious reasons or the gaunts Okay, yep Well, I'll just we'll talk about this probably later But in the recent FAQ they sort of changed arch and scroll to where it's most of the ever chosen And in the bellicor FAQ it says just ever chosen and those two are bolded so I would never play archion. He's obviously not supposed to be there But again a great example of the rules folks at gw Just kind of missing something. Yeah, sure I think the intention is quite clear that obviously bellicor is meant to be I mean, he's obviously You know in the narrative and sort of functionally. He's meant to be doing a sort of not an out and out coup against the the Grand marshal of the apocalypse, but obviously he You know sees himself as A potential like successor to him because he feels like he should have been The ever chosen and and was passed by and all of that like he doesn't bellicor does have a very interesting and compelling narrative I do completely agree with you. Okay um the And and I think that it has seen a lot of its success so far as a control army Um, and that is because especially in a lot of the melee that it's it was it's operated in um It that is its ability to play as a blue deck Has made it very competitively successful in the current meta That relied on being able to sort of maximize your toys And so when someone can come in and counter spell your best toys effectively that was a very powerful effect right so uh I do think it has different dimensions to it. Although it's interesting that this one has shown a sort of Uh Higher success rate, let's say in the competitive scene, but I don't think that means that's the only one On that point Benz. So I've played this army way more than I would like to have I actually played shawn very first game at a tournament last year, which was quite a quite an opening game Yeah to play and So first of three I heard that Yeah, that was awful that you that you extinguished.  It was a very close one. You you had me dead rights early on Anyway, so I've come to appreciate the value of this army, which makes me want to throw up The We need control. We need blue deck in the in the meta in the ecosystem and obviously that's what this does No, so I've yeah, uh, despite some of the frustrations with it. I do really see that it has a meaningful role to play Yep And but there's also sort of this idea that because that's what people have been successful with it already that that's what it is So when the list that I played you Tyler at flying monkey was not that And and it was assumed by certain commentators when they talked about it that I played that It was like, oh, these are the first prints. It has to have these things in it. That's what it was And it wasn't and so I really am kind of pushing folks in the you know, the aos coach discord Which is great You should join it if you haven't by the way, but his lfp chat is wonderful and I keep trying to push folks Especially away from the demon prince. You know, that's a crutch Try to get away from the demon prince try to get away from kairos And and people have developed some really interesting lists there that have that have done pretty well Yeah, I think we're we're gonna talk about some of the units. I think that are that are hot picks here in a little while My other point on this is it has the ability to borrow the modular power from across different armies into a single force Right, like that's what one of the strengths of this army is that it can take all these different Whatever is a modularly powerful piece whatever isn't relying on its own armies Allegiance synergies and and buffs, right and can do something powerful potent interesting useful whatever on its own Can come over here and be a very valid piece, right? And this actually I think is a challenge for a lot of the scrolls But we'll talk about that in a minute one of the strongest control armies I it is simply that due to the ability to put together individual army control elements again Not that that's the only way it has to play but I don't I don't think there is a stronger control army in the meta Okay, yeah Yeah, I mean if you if you go that route, yeah, definitely it's it's going to deny you if you go the The list that I make I like to think of it that I I have the The damage that you would expect from a cord I have the bodies you can get from zeech I have the ward save you get from nergal and I have the speed you can get from smash And he'll have all that in a single army And it's it's tricky for opponents to deal with all of those things especially the summoning. Oh my god the summoning you've got it next Amazing the best summoning in the game Not contingent on anything. I don't have to do anything to make it happen It's totally random. Bam. It happens. Bam. It doesn't when you get that turd one summon off You've gone top one and you control basically three quarters of that board Oh, yes, okay Yeah, and that's exactly it. That's the last point, right? It has this strong summoning ability to supplement with additional troops And it exactly you said you're not building points you're not tracking anything. It's just it does it It just summons like if assuming you can make the roll Okay, yeah, we'll talk about the specific rules in a moment But before we get into the the specific rules and before we get like of of the actual army and stuff like that I want to just talk here for a moment about Some of the innate challenges of this army in my mind. Okay So the first one is And and I'll be I'm interested to get your take sean first with Tyler. I want to hear from you as well I don't think this is anything close to a good army for a new player Yeah, I think this is like your third army Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, if if that yeah, yeah It's it's the fact that there is no like start collecting introduction In fact, you need to buy three or four start collecting to really have all your summoning Um, it is no friendly. You don't have one single book that says this is all your units Um, you you have one single book that has all your leading abilities But knowing what units can go in what their synergies are One of the biggest questions that I I get from folks is what about this unit? Right, what how can I use this one or and my my recommendation is always play what you own Right, if you already have a chaos army, play what you own If you're doing a friendly game and try something out see if they're okay with you proxying something Tts is a good place even though I'm a strong proponent of in-person physical games. That's why I got into this hobby was to Meet people and have that physical you know real conversation with the real person But there's ways to try this out Instead of just just you know buying this buying that realizing. Oh, I didn't want that 140 point greater demon. Then we've got it sitting on the shelf Yeah, and applying I think it it's one that can be an incredibly rewarding army that because it does not play itself And yeah, there are a lot of decision points both the list building and in gameplay And then it has the combined arms footprint that Benz, you know, I love and you know, I've always been a big proponent of Sometimes, you know, it's the cities of sigmar my mind for chaos where you can plug and play different pieces and So it's yeah, I think it can be incredibly rewarding. But yeah, it's probably not your first army Yeah, yeah, which again, I'm not saying that's necessarily like a it is a thing Right like that's it's not I'm not normatively assigning that value. I think it is just a fact of the of the army as it were, right? Okay So then here's my next one I don't know if Sean froze. He might have froze. He'll be back if he did Um, okay, here's my next one Uh He'll be back. It's all good. There we go Is it a problem That there are welcome back. It's all good. Is it a problem that there are so many trap units in this army? And what I mean by that is like There are 80 some potential war scrolls that can go in here, right? And most of them most of them You would never use actually in the army like there's a lot Of chaff you're set. I don't mean that in the game term. I mean that in like the Separating the weed from the chaff, right? Like there's just a lot of stuff that is demons. You would probably never put in this army Is that a is that a problem or is it just mean that like No, it's just another skill floor like you have to get to a certain level Of being able to sort of evaluate scrolls To understand what's going to make this army function because I could see somebody who doesn't really know Just grabbing like their random selection of chaos demons Putting this together and just being like I don't get it. Why doesn't this army work? It does nothing right So I think Yeah, I think that is it is tricky, but the legion itself I mean you're going to get bellicor so you know everyone's going to have that so they're not going to worry about about him Um But the the other use me the legion the legion's itself is rather forgiving actually to be really honest So if you're playing a sub optimal battle line choice Um, it might not necessarily hurt you as much as it might in other armies like if you went in with plague bears Um, or you went in with you know god forbid bloodletters You'll have bodies on the table. You're not going to be as competitive as you might be But I think you're still going to get a feeling of this army Um, but there are some other things where I just wouldn't recommend anybody running But yeah, like I imagine the person who's like I'm going to use Blood crushers and the the blood throne and I'm like, oh boy Yeah, yeah blood throne wait on corn's new book for sure. Um, I'd really like to use fiends But I just can't see just can't see how to make them work. Right. That's another great example I mean, and you just mentioned something that's really interesting about the nature of this army because it is a soup Army effectively composed of five different books. It's going to be very Susceptible. It's an open army not a closed army, right? We've talked about the difference between open and closed design before It's an open design army where you know when when we get when we got the new nergal book Suddenly things changed as we just talked about, you know, we kind of mentioned the guo thing earlier We'll talk about later, right? But like when corn eventually gets a new book as we all hope it does sometimes soon It could flip the script completely around on what corn units end up being Valid valuable useful here, right? It's it's it is entirely dependent on what's underneath it Right of those five books underneath it the the foundation of it will change To me, that's the awesome part It's we get a book like five times as often as anyone else does Sure, but my one my one concern though what i'm seeing with the nergal book And what i've seen with some of the silenced stuff is that they are Changing some war scrolls to bring allegiance abilities into the war scroll So like all this stuff on the scroll for like the guo where he does disease points where the beast of Nergal do disease points that does us no good But they're pointed for that Most of the slinnish models are pointed to take advantage of the exploding sixes, which we're not they're summoning Which do you not gonna get exactly? Yeah And and there's a so and there's also there's this this sort of reduction of the allegiance abilities of scrolls Which i don't like and it's we just have to accept that that we're just not going to use this ability Is it worth using even if we can't use that ability? But then i'm also starting to see this trend especially with the points hike in the guo that allow these greater demons I think i'm getting the vibe. They're wanting them to be over 400 points. They don't want them to be reliable That they won't be able to be allied into other armies And so it's going to end up making our big greater demon power pieces that much more expensive right now the Bloodthirsters you can get the the boom bt the incense a rage war for 280 and that's just insanely Cheat for that day So i think i can see him take it to 400, but i would expect this Unequally strong war scroll to equal 400. Yeah, sure. So he may still be usable Yeah, i mean one would hope that they move all the greater demons to between four and 500 points and have them punch at that Weight that's where they should all be like Okay, it's i've i've read on this rant before it's insane to me that we we've ever let greater demons get to that point But here we are Okay Here's my last question you mentioned this so this was obviously in its old form It was legion of chaos ascendant right and some people still sort of Will occasionally call it that but it's really not anymore You know legion of the first prince was like a sub allegiance of loka, right? But now it's just legion of the first prince And so bellicor is basically always here Okay, like this is his army. He is the first prince. This is his thing Right Is it a problem? That the army is pinned To this one named guy, right and and it's not that you would absolutely have to have him You certainly can build a list without him It's just like you read the allegiance abilities and you're like, okay, I get it Take bellicor, right? Like he feels like a much more essential part of the army vis-a-vis how the army functions Than I think any other sort of character or or hero exists in the game So what do you think sean? Is that is that a challenge? Is it fine? It like because like if people want to sort of just mixed demon thing They're there they can do that but then they still have to hue that they still have to be You know sort of tack their sale to bellicor's wind as it were, right? Yeah, um, I'm kind of curious about about tyler's What do you would say if you rolled up on a table playing an LFP list and there was no bellicor? How would you feel?  I don't get the jackpot. There's I don't think oh sure. I mean, yeah From a gameplay standpoint. Yeah, absolutely I mean again, like I've just kind of gotten accustomed to bellicor and what he does in the game You know like ultimately, I think he plays a very useful role in the game Yeah, uh despite the challenges that that he can't present particularly when combined with other elements But yeah, I mean the the whole narrative structure of it is is really centered around bellicor obviously But I mean I could see them opening enough where You could go down maybe two routes where like you have to play a greater demon Or maybe you have to have a greater demon as a general or a demon prince of some kind or a demon prince Yeah, yeah, totally and I think that could still make sense Yeah, where you like a white dwarf update where you even print our greater demon becomes a lieutenant or something You get some kind of great, but but eventually I think your question is actually Of course you can run it without bellicor, but I would kind of the way I look at bellicor's scroll as model Why aren't you running him in every cast army anyway? Because he's 360 points sure and his ability to lock down a unit just say no to a unit For one if not two turns when you plan it right and it makes the devil so fun Right makes it makes priority that much more fun for your opponent They're like, oh no, are they going to double me because they have to think Do I want to take the turn for the double? But then my units bellicor for a second turn or do I want to give them the double and then Have have them free next time or give it to them. So it's this extra game involved I think he personally when I make nergolas when I make zicholas I put bellicor in Because I think he brings so much power, especially when you've got units of 15 bow snakes You've got god monsters running around these single units that people are relying on to do a lot of work And you take them off the table for two out of five rounds That's 40 of the game that they're not they might not be doing something And let's be honest. It's the more vital part of usually what's happening, right? Like that 40 percent is an outsized 40 percent, right? Yeah, it's usually two to three or three to four when it really matters And so and then when you put when you put him in Legion You just get all these extra stuff So I'm like, of course, I'd run him in Legion But then wait, I also get this and I get this and he's a platform That was the best change from Legion of the cast ascended to the bellicor book as far as I'm concerned to the first prince Because in Legion of cast ascended he could not be a summoning platform He did not have the keywords And he was just running around as undivided and you couldn't use him for the within 12 summons And now he can bring in anything So what I like to do with bellicor either auto run him 20 Or if he's in combat because he's so tanky He's usually on this top bracket. And so he can just retreat 14 So auto run him 20 And then a unit of say five paints wholly within 12 You've got a 32 inch Range where you're popping models out And it's just like this is all mine And each of those models has a three inch bubble around it where unless you fly you can't move and you certainly can't land And so when you talk about control you've got bellicor scroll itself, which is locking it down But then you have ability to just dominate the board Um, and it's just it's just so strong. That's why You know taking the so-called controlless route I think you're just doubling down on something you're already doing well And I would much rather go into something that's going to give me more combat Um, uh, give me more of a takey, uh, either either making me more takey or make me more aggressive In order to uh to compensate for what I'm not getting Um in the army generally Yeah, just one thought on that, you know in our game I realized that Sometimes early on in 3.0 I was falling into the trap of just automatically giving my opponent first turn when I have the choice You know, you could you play for the devil blah blah blah and against lesion I quickly like oh I probably should have thought about this against sean and on this mission I think we were playing like first blood and you just immediately you took control of two objectives Now like big time you did you did exactly that bellicorps moved up five pink cores You had 10 pink cores on the other one you had everybody screened off kairos boom thurster You made a really nice play to use kairos's dice change to deny me the battle tactic of uh, I think I had to get conquer or something Maybe you anyway It was just like one of those things. Yeah, so you've got to think about against legion You know, maybe you should go first and try to pin them If you have the means to try to pin them back in their deployment zone Yeah, I was very impressed by how well you controlled that game and from the get go Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that But that's a good I was just gonna say that the the priority at the first turn so legion is is an interesting army that you don't care if you go first or second um, and Because of that, I've actually upped my drops Because I want to be able to see where the opponent's going to counter drop Most folks are coming in with one anyway, but I usually have one of the lists you'll see I tend to have bellicor and then I've loved the three Bloodthirster list. That's my current thing. I just love it And so I'll have a thurster here a thurster here in the the one with the phylopora here So all of them are holding within eight and so I wait to see if they deploy Well, which side do I want to go strong off bellicor do I want to go strong off bellicor to the left or strong off bellicor to the right And if then they can decide to go first or second and it really doesn't bother me Yeah, go first. I dominate the board. I move up. I do my monsters, you know, the ferocious advance If they give me uh, if they go first then I've got a potential double and then I can possibly double them from uh, two into three And then you've got the burning objectives, which makes it so much fun. I love Letting them double me from two to three having something bellicor two to three And getting a choice to either burn or keep an objective because sometimes keeping objectives is even more important Not letting them burn because you want to be able to go and cap it later or to make them keep something on that objective If you burn it, they're just going to start scooting and so you make them stay there knowing that bellicor can go 14 inches Um, uh from a retreat and get five bodies on there later Nice nice All right Yeah, I mean for me I it's an interesting case right because this is such a distinct and strange army I say I I think honestly if I had my choice like you're you're not wrong that bellicor is A very powerful piece in the current world Like I don't think he's auto-included in all of the other chaos armies Um, although I certainly do often run him into the nest just that's a statement on like What are you sacrificing, you know Uh, it's like well, I lose 360 points of something bad to get 360 points of something good So, you know, it's can only go up from here um But you know, I I think that he's he's He is an interesting tonic To the sort of malady of the current Uh Meta right in that. I don't think he's auto-included, but he has high value He sits in this really interesting space where his ability is is potent and useful Often but not Overpowered it's actually writing almost a perfect line. I think and how it functionally interacts with the game Which is it was overpowered when it was on like a 200 and some point model It's it's much better on a 360 point model, right? I think honestly he could he should be like I think when he came out He's 380 and then they knocked him down a few points, whatever I think 380 is probably a better number for him Still keep him reliable But he should be a little bit higher because I do think he has a potent piece, but that's neither here nor there I would love to see this army have a generic option as well Just so people weren't there's there is a cohort of people and it's completely understandable They just aren't as enamored of named characters Right and like the ability to sort of bring their own flavor to the army And I think that's by the way completely justified, right? Like there's this ultimately your army is your thing So if you know, and I think we In most armies you kind of have this You do have the choice right between usually it's like well the name guy in the lead or the generic version of him It's often the case not always, you know, there's no generic cragnos out there, but whatever whatever you get what I mean thankfully yes Like with with this kind of guy I'd love to see that there's some ability to just like slot a demon prince in or something like that where he can absorb Most of the same abilities Because I don't think it would break the world in any in any way that I could see yes You'd have the ability to sort of Soup him up in some way, right? But like I don't think it's going to bring the The that I don't think it's going to bring about the dominance of of Legion of the first prince or something right? It would just kind of expand the play space for people who want to make those armies So that'd be really cool. Yeah, like I said Sean having these lieutenants demon princes that kind of like the little amount traits or something that they get Access to yeah, that'd be awesome. Yeah, and I think that would just be I think that would just be a way like it would make the army more interesting to more people Which is good. Well, still like take nothing add more options. There you go, right? Yeah Yeah, like they've got the exalted greater demons in 40k do something like that Um And bella core. I mean, I know some folks have court of discounted his new scroll his damage is Awesome People are always surprised by the damage he does He's got he's eight attacks threes and threes minus two straight two damage, not d three And then he's got a threes and threes three one attack three threes and threes minus one two damage and another attack that's Two's and twos minus three two damage Um, so the dude can put out some work, you know, he could do 20 wounds um, and uh, and I think people sort of You know, they have this idea that well, you don't have to worry about him He's not going to do anything, but he can do some work. Yeah He's almost always re-rolling hits as well in front of his little ability that whatever the first damn prince ability Yeah, well, yeah, if you get the one of each of those in but yeah I mean, I've done that in the past getting one of each of the battle line types Oh, is it's required each? Yeah, yeah, it's harder to get him in re-rolling hits But nonetheless, he's you know, obviously he's a very scary guy if he if he goes a lot of attack and stuff like that He's he's perfectly acceptable on damage like he's not gonna He's not striking down the hardest angles in the game But he can do work if you let him he's he's very fast and so, you know, and he is as you said tough so he can he can get into the sort of uh He can get in a sort of a lot of fights and come out the winner Right, even if he's not killing at all at once. Okay. Let's look at the rules themselves Uh, all right, let's go ahead and time stamp this because this feels like a good change All right, so I've been talking for 50 minutes. Good. It's flown by time flying all right so, uh This is your traits with Legion of the first prince But you can find these rules in case you're curious by the way if you're not sure where are these rules I don't see any battle tome called Legion of the first prince Uh, those rules would be right here In this tome it bears the name of the guy Bellicor, so it's the uh, it's the broken realms book and it's a good book Uh, it's got a good cool story and it's got a lot of it's got rules in it for other armies as well Um, obviously if you're a knight hop player or something you should also be checking that out. Okay so, um All right Uh, David Heron says when I started bloodthirsters cost a thousand points 995. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember playing against bloodthirsters very often back in um Back in like fourth and fifth edition when they would immediately just fly high on me And that was always fun when they anywhere come down with their like 10 strength 10 attacks or whatever nonsense they did at weapon skill 10. Okay.  Oh before you go. Uh, you can also find these on the warhammer, uh app The agency more app. Yes, but it's under expansions. So you need to go to the rules go to expansions and then you'll see bellicor There you go. There you go. Uh Have you ever seen national ampounes vegas vacation? Hmm Okay All I can think of here is when they go to the hoover dam With that with the naming structure like that.  So at any rate, uh, This is an ability that the first part of which you will probably not use super often It will happen sometimes. It's not something you should like You shouldn't make bad tactical decisions to make this happen That's what I'll say if you can do it incidentally and still be in a strong place Fine, but it allows him to reroll hits when he has one friendly unit of bloodletters horrors plaguebearers and daemonettes All he's got to have one of each At least one of each he can have more but at least one of each So if there's has to be at least these four units Within 18 inches of him not wholly within just within so somebody's got to be towing into that pretty generous bubble The trick is there's you're not always going to really have cause to take all four of those You might achieve it more with summons something like that so At any rate don't bend over backwards for this. It's not worth it. Just all out attack hitting on twos is generally fine You know, you'll get there. It's okay. Just getting real hits on him. Not super worth it Fair Sean. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've done it once maybe twice in the games I've played over the past Year or so And I'll but I would also point out that all these rules the bloodletters demonettes plaguebearers and Uh, what are they horrors? Those are no longer bolded. They used to be bold in legion of gas ascended So you could do Blood crushers you could do seekers all those things that had the keywords Of course now plaguebearers are hosts of plaguebearers or what's the Yeah, they're like plaguebearer hosts, but it still says plaguebearers, you know So so these are only the main battle line. There's the only all these rules. Those are the only things that apply Yeah, I am sad about that because I used to use uh The old version of the cursed skies like I played this army a few times In its old form and I and I yeah, yeah, yeah I've played every army man. I have all the chaos armies. So Nothing less. Yeah, you only like models play them Yeah, exactly when you own every chaos army, it's you're gonna be like, well, let me give this a try a few times But I used it to get back, uh, because the chariots had the demonet keyword So I was using the cursed guys to return back Broken chariots. I am that guy. It was super fun at any rate No, you can't do that anymore. So there we go Okay, uh In addition our favorite two words in all of warhammer Uh, and this is this is gonna be what This is going to lead to a whole discussion in a little while So we're not going to talk about it. This is where the clicks are going to come from. This is where this debate right here Be ready for it. Oh, yeah Before you allocate a wound or mortal wound to bellicor pick one friendly unit within nine inches of him from one of the Following war scrolls and roll a dice bloodletters whores plague bear statement It's basically the same for battle line demon units on a four plus that wound or mortal wound is allocated to that Unit instead what we would colloquially call but has no place in the rules a bodyguard effect Right, so he can pass wounds off to his to the little demons, which of course makes sense Uh, so there you go um, okay So, uh, and yes, uh smorgans in the chat talking about he was defending the bloodthrone smorgan.  I love you, buddy Uh, and he as he says yes acquiescence and all-out attack is just generally a lot easier to achieve And it will get you to basically the same place. So yes, I agree. Um, and because you can there are several Many slanesh Models as we'll talk about can actually find a very good home here. So that's nice And actually if you want to run corn, this is the place to run corn Yeah, at the moment there's at least two of those four books probably find their best use for their scrolls in this army um Maybe I need to maybe I need to start uh flipping over to instead of trying to play slanesh and bang my head Against the wall just just run some left It just used like a bunch of slanesh demons. That's the part of the army. I like anyways All right And I can get my old ward save back. I used to have in past editions. Won't that be fun? Okay So, uh, we'll talk about the bodyguard thing in excruciating detail in just a little while. Don't worry Uh, but I'm excited about it. Uh, and so the curse guys at the end of the battle shock phase If bellicor is your general and on the battlefield roll a dice free friendly unit on the battlefield from the falling war scrolls Same people again, but also adding furries, which is fun I love that furries actually have a use in this army and you I was so excited when you sent me some Uh Some some some lists We're gonna review some lists that have furries in them because I've always thought that they had play They just didn't have the right list to go in and I think that here in loft They actually can have a home I agree in lsp. They they do belong here and they're they're awesome. They're they're a powerhouse unit I think um, I am a little myth though that furries are here, but they're not in the allocation bowl Yeah, I think you can't pass wounds to them. Yeah. Yeah, that upsets me. So yep. It's strange. It feels like They should be but hey, okay At any rate you could return d3 slain models to that unit if it's a horror you get one So, okay, cool And the d3 really helps for things like the play bears and the furries because they're tunes piece Yep. Yep. Absolutely like getting back d3 plague bears Good Is good And then everybody has the next rule is infernal wrong walkers. Everybody has a six up ward. So, okay, there you go easy enough And that can be modified as we'll talk about And then finally unyielding legions at the end of your movement phase You can pick one friendly legion the first prince hero that is on the battlefield and roll three six on a 10 plus You get one of the following units Added to the battlefield to your army And then it's derivative of the hero's Keyword and bell of core could pick any of them or six furries. So there you go Absolutely amazing ability And the pinks pinks war scroll. I'm just a super pink statement. I love them. They're they're all that I bring in Um five five models, which so they can be strung out.  Let's be honest is still summoning 25 wounds Right like that's that's the real By the way, the nergal is now 20 wounds. Let's not underestimate that either, right? You know, there you go It's just it's a number of models for objective purposes are going to start doing the other They're going to drop Yep, whereas somebody then hits the horrors and they actually count as more people on the objective And just a quick story about the events. I was playing nergal This happened twice playing nerven now, so I want to make sure you mentioned um, I was uh competing over an objective and um I had I had only objective they came in they were gonna take it And then disease rolls at the battle shop phase, baby Yes, guess what happened those little peaks go and they become two blues a piece And look you didn't take it from me or my favorite was oh now we're tied. You didn't take it from me Oh, so those extra wounds on the peaks Contagion that's a must not a can rule that it must happen Oh Fun times Uh take that nergal. All right, so that's the basic rules of the army Um, so, you know, it's obviously focused on a lot of the battle line demons now Um in a lot of its interactions Uh, but That is to say like the the basic four Yeah Okay, now let's talk about the the sort of other stuff Uh, because this army as you said does not have a lot of rules to it is Once you've sort of got the expertise that you can go through and kind of understand How do I look through all this? Where do I look? You know, you're not once you're not a new player There's the army does direct you to some good degree as to the kinds of things you're going to want to include And it's not that much to learn Right So, yeah, there you go. Okay Just really I'd like to respond to to michael warner in the chat who's talking about As soon as they get popped they become six That's true, but once they get popped then you've got two that come in and you can put those in within an inch Right, so you can you can play around with with the coherency to make sure they're still in coherency Um, but that is that is a good thing to think about that You are going to be a unit of six when you get popped, but you do have ways to play around Yeah, you have to think about you have to think about how your sort of triangles are set up there Because you could you could end up in a bad place because they are on the pinks are on 32 mil bases So you want to you want to kind of be in the 32 mil Sneaky coherent line where where once one pops it doesn't matter you're still going to be in coherency Let's do a shout. Uh, all right, so, um Everybody who is a wizard in a in a loft army Gets the spell in addition to any other spell they know Which is the master's command which basically gives them a death frenzy Simple this way I can say it They can fight on death So fine, cool spell Yeah, I very rarely using right. It's you know, it It does what it does You don't have a lot of like units that you're swinging around that are super melee powerhouses that you really care that much about But it's it's there Yeah, I really don't like I really don't like things that are reactive to my opponent like in order for me to get something You have to have to do this and I don't want to lose a piece. So yeah Yep um All right, rather than read all of the command traits and artifacts Sean What do we pick in here? What do we what do we pick? Well, so whenever I was running, um In region of cast ascendant when we could bring the vermin lords and I could pop something our vermin lord within six The uh, I was bringing infernal charge because I wanted to get that charge off Um, then I was playing primordial commander a little bit. I'm like, oh, this is cool But you know, it's still a random roll and nine is better than 10. I think 10 is like a 66 chance And then there's a 73 or something percent chance. Um, but still you can miss that So in 66 it's pretty good.  We get a five plus Um, so it is uh, it's pretty pretty powerful Yeah Yeah, I think that's right. I think ruinous aura is just a pick here It can lead you the only thing I will say Is that abilities like this that want to encourage you to castle you have to be careful you don't play yourself out of the game What I mean by that is like people can become addicted to having the five up Ward instead of the six up and will make bad choices in their movement Like they'll try to stay too tightly clustered Right to suddenly like move around in this little pack And then they're not actually doing what this army does well Which is spread out and control the objectives and control the battlefield And and you know establish that board presence And so it's good like don't be wrong. I think it's a very strong trait. You just have to you have to break your brains Wants to be like, oh, I always want my toy that I that I took right I always want to make sure that every role I make ever always gets the five up like no no no no no You know, it's there for what it's there for your protecting your core Don't Get overly addicted to it. That's what I would say Yeah, and that that's why units like the mask with her in eight four plus Ward and the epitomies to plus mortal ward Those are really good because you can peel them off and not be too concerned about them being out of the five I tend to say what are the what are the key pieces? I want to keep when I do the bts I'll usually run them together as a hunting pack of three make sure that they're within eight So they get that off the general one of them will be the general Um, try to keep bellicorps in at the beginning deployment. I always have my heroes bellicorps blue scrubs, whatever That's all in the eight um for the you know for Top of one shooting that sort of thing, but then being able to I mean bellicorps He's going to take a hit. I've seen him take two terror guys on and just be like So, um, he'll he'll survive Especially if you've got pinks there that can take 50 of 50 wounds for him Because you have to do that truck by the way. You cannot it's it's a must Um, and so you you cannot say, oh, well, I don't want to do that I want to keep that you the pinks alive.  I knew it off because they had to do it Even though they might not have wanted to do it. Sure Artifacts, I mean, I I think we all know the pact or the choice here, right? Sorry the the the item here that we're leaning on but what do you like? It's the banner, baby. Oh, sorry Um, yeah, that's just the silliest thing I've ever seen. Um the uh It's such a good job with all this other stuff I mean apart from only giving you one spell but like all this other stuff is really good And then we get to the final one and it just fall off a cliff. That's true. Yeah Yeah, the first two both have some interesting, but it's it all comes down to number one for me Yeah, I think the four full blade is probably the one if actually i'm gonna scratch that That's um the first one that I will take is arcane tome Sure Yes, that's the corn blood thirst with an arcane tome Oh Narrative be, uh, you know be damned. Um, but I would say of these the four full blade if you have a unit that's It might be a little kid contingent contingent if you have a unit that's got a lot of hits You're gonna want to put a lot of attacks put the four full blade If you have something though, that's um, you're wanting to get in combat and you want it to survive It's going to be armor of the pact. Um The the thing about this army It's it's biggest from my experience the biggest things you have to worry about is long range shooting and long range Immortals from spells. Um, and and so Of these an armor of the pack It's not going to be my first choice if i'm taking a warlord battalion and I get a second artifact I may take armor of the pact But it's it's not going to be usually my first choice if i'm looking for sheer output It'll be the four full blade probably on the epitome or a bunch of nerve winnings thing Which is awesome. Yeah Yeah, I think the artifacts are interesting because I I agree with you like there It's the it looks like this on a chart, right? Like it's like good Slightly worse, but still interesting and then falls like a rock On the third one right in my estimation Like the armor of the pact if you don't have somebody who has the attacks to make the four full blade worth it The armor of the pact is a really good choice. It's one. I mean re-roll saves is almost completely eliminated From the game at this point. So anything that should be doing it is very powerful It should be entirely I agree like this should be struck in an FAQ from existence I know the artifact pisses tyler off a lot of Yeah, I like but it's it is really strong Um But it is our name. You have what's that it isn't really I So all the shooting.  Sure, of course. Of course I'm glad it's at least that but yes I'm just generally a belief that right now in our current world of save stacking all all re-roll saves should be Be it should be snapped out of existence like you go the infinity gauntlet Um Okay, but nonetheless. Yeah, I think four full blade is is my favorite one because I like doing damage So that's cool. And there are like we'll talk about the various heroes that are that make it interesting But I think both of those have play so cool. Yeah, okay Uh, all right Sorry about the hottest hottest chaos demons not yet. We're almost there. Oh, all right. I'm gonna start playing it when we get there That's fine. We'll we'll get there All right. These are hot picks hot picks for the army. So here's my hero list Okay, uh bellicor kairos the demon prince of corn blood thirsters the contorted epitome the blue scribes The great unclean one and the mask. These are my hot picks of potentials. These are all things you could see in a list a competitive list troops plague bears horrors furies flesh hounds Okay, now I didn't include daemonettes or uh, or um bloodletters But it doesn't matter like you can also summon those because the there are heroes that would summon both of those as we from the previous Heroes we mentioned if you absolutely needed to Um daemonettes are perfectly fine summon because they have a built-in re-roll to charge on the scroll. They're they're a horrible Horrible thing to put in your base army because they're so horrendously overcosted right now Because you're paying for the them to you're paying for the summoning and the abilities that they have and so on and so forth Like they're so just tragically overpriced But as a summon where you're paying zero points, uh, they're quite good because they have built-in run in charge and built-in re-roll charges So even on the summon if you need them to like you summon the unit Your only hope is to go run in charge and and you know pin somebody on an objective or something like that They can be a great way They can be a great summon in that case because you're gonna get two bites of the apple without burning command point Um, so cool What did I miss? Who don't I have here? Think about screamers shone Um, I think I'd rather have furies Yeah for the points. Yeah, um, I mean screamers are beautiful against like an army like lrl Where you just run over them and just dive bomb them with the d3 mortals. That's really great but um Furies just give you so much more options uh, especially You know charging them in and then jumping over 12 to get to that objective Which is really great. But also when they get into combat Um, if your opponent knows what they do and how much of a pain they would be they are Then they have to use their first activation to kill them And they're actually they don't have to say but they're too into peace So and they also have the six up after so It's kind of surprising how long they'll last especially how many You're summoning with You're getting six on the nine or ten up on 3d6 You are but I I would never summon furies. I would always bring him in at the list Okay, and I would do probably I mean unit of six if I've got the points, but I usually do units of 12 I'm going heavy furies Um, because I want them there at the beginning because I want to be able to move them forward And then try to get a charge or have them do a screen to bounce off of in combat And I also like to put them behind the fleshhounds So that whenever the fleshhounds get charged or our seekers are great actually for this too because seekers are in battle I'm soon going to give away both in lengths So when the seekers get charged If the furies are in combat because they're within three inches and then you just bounce them over somewhere I mean, yeah, I'm seeing some other shouts in the in the comments here sinessa. I could see sinessa I think sinessa is actually an interesting pick I I remiss for not including my favorite new slanesh model a new sculpt. So I I I could see sinessa absolutely her Spell has interesting play in the current one and has effectively an unlimited range She brings a lot of her own stuff with her on scroll, which is useful Yeah, I'm I know that tyler's a big Sinessa fan. He's been Pushing her release I think that she suffers from the same thing as kairos does in some ways because There is there's a lot of not a lot, but there is enough auto ambiance in the in the meta Um that when you're relying on somebody to do one spell Um and kairos can flip it ice, but it doesn't have any pluses to cast um And so You have things like signs of the storm where they can bring in an encounter and just drop them within 30 Um to get that auto unbind a tech list moves up any auto unbinds Um It can be it can really ruin your day as a player to be relying on that one spell and not be able to get it off Um, but she she does have a lot of she's sort of a tool that you can use but i'm kind of hesitant to put her in there just because I've seen her get shut down Sure. All right We've got some shout outs for uh, some other we we've got a couple a couple slanesh fans in the chat, which i'm excited to see Uh, talking about the blade bringer herald on exalted chariot Uh, or let's see Uh the infernal and rapturous for for the sort of magic control off of that What do you think about those two picks? People trying to shove some slanesh in here. I think I love the blade bringer uh herald on exalted chariot, and I know that paper wood j is created a wonderful Beautifully painted slanesh army. Um, and so he gets to use his toys and they're they're great. So especially when you give them the fourfold blade Um and send them in there They can do the d3 on the charge and then make the monster they can stop and I mean there's all kinds of different things That they can do Um, so I think that's a good call the rapturous Not so sure she doesn't she have something on her more scroll still that gives depravity Uh, I know I believe they got rid of it. So I I haven't run her in a long time is my honest answer because she fell off the list of worth it in slanesh pretty hard She looks cool. I mean she's a good she's a good little model. It's beautiful. Um I think the one thing that I I kind of what wanted to talk about real quick is the demon prince um because I have I have a relationship with the demon prince.  So I know that there's a couple reasons one I know a lot of people think it's no fun to play games And I agree when you're playing a melee army and you come against the corn demon prince And you have runs you have charges You're like I came in here to smash my models against each other and you're not letting me do that Um, but for me, I mean, I Yeah, like I get that. I don't know.  Anyway, I I kind of feel like it has It has a role in the ecosystem, but but I I get what you're saying in general Well, well, that's something I think you're right, tyler that in certain Legion of the first prince list you have to put him in there because you don't have the other tools to deal with it But the way that I look at this army Whenever I look at any armies, I say, what does it do really well? Like what's the book designed for it to do really well And Legion of the first prince from what in my experience is is it's designed to take a hit It's got the the ward which can be a five up ward. It's got the pinks, right? You've got all these bodies it can it can take an alpha strike It can take a hit really well You move up the board you summon in something that's your screen and you take that hit, right? So I already have a way I'm also I'm already really good at taking that hit What am I not good at so I'm kind of again, I'm putting Good more I'm doubling down on what already I'm already good at when I could be putting in more damage from a From more thirsters or I could be putting in More bodies for more screens. I mean there's a lot for objective control There's a lot that I think that And it also it doesn't know it does it doesn't know good against shooting armies or ranged mortal armies Like if you're not going against a melee army The corn demon prince is going to sit there and look pretty and that's about it because he really can't do much else and so And whatever you go to an event as a three game or five game event if I knew I was going to be facing five melee armies I would absolutely include him but in this matter. I don't know so to me. It's it's There's other ways. I would like to go with those points Okay, okay, I can see that yeah, and I mean the main thing that I hate about him is the range is too Long, you know, it's too big of a bubble You know that I think they need to knock that down to like what it's within 18 right now or holy within 18 Knocked that down to 12 I think if he would be a lot more reasonable in regard to bloodslick ground But anyway, I mean it's kind of first principle is it's a silly roll for a blood for a corn demon prince of all things to have that Rule but we've talked about that before but no, yeah good points, man I mean the insulting part is that they're all the demon princes are still the same points cost When it's so obviously evident there is a huge performance difference between them It kind of seems a let's let's look around should get you to the enemy quicker Right like you're sliding on the blood slick ring to the yeah Yeah That would make a little more sense. Yeah, let's talk about a couple other ones here that got mentioned There's been some people angry with us for not including slobby bio piper Because of his ability to sort of buff plague bearers like as as a little power pair effectively, right? How do you like that as a sort of power pair in there? I mean, yeah, if you go nirgle if you're bringing in nirgle stuff then slobby would work well I mean you've got so many options here and Like what you see my list you'll you'll see my three battle line Like I have a three set battle line I play and there's a reason for that And so I would never personally bring in slobby But I could see him behind a unit of 10 or unit 20 plague bearers And being a real pain actually Gotcha And then the last one we'll touch on Scar brand Nobody people people asking about big big bad Papa scar brand how you feeling about him? Oh I mean just his scroll by itself is so Awesome and upsetting at the same time. It's just like because So we've got this great commandability and gird.  It's like it's like the worst parts of the cornbook, right the the accounting 11 And you've got to like, okay, how am I going to do this? I'm going to fill this and I just I don't with with him It's I would much rather take those points and just have A bloodthirster for instance a rage Um because I mean you have to hold scar brand away for a turn because almost he hasn't tacked for a round Right, then he gets to go in at low profile But you're telling me that I can't use something for a whole turn like in the combat phase. It just I just don't like it. I wish the scroll was was tweaked. I don't know how to tweak it But I just wish it was tweaked. Okay All right, cool Good stuff. There may be some other units. I'd be interested to see what else people think. Yeah, go ahead. I will say the last Go ahead Tyler The last one karnak. I think he's what 45 more than fleshhounds. He summons in fleshhounds for free Yeah, see him popping up at all I ran him Yeah, I love him too. I've got him over there on the desk and I mean I I've ran him that the problem is the way his scrolls worded is um He has to be he has to be within nine of his prey and his Dogs have to pop out out. I think it's like outside of nine of an enemy But within nine of him and they pop out in the hero phase Which means you spend a whole turn getting him within range But not in combat because you don't want him to die because you want to bring in your dogs And so it's like there's just if it wasn't the movement phase like bam move there done now I can charge with him It makes so much more sense, but the way this scroll is currently worded. It's just awkward and it just doesn't Think right totally fair. Okay, but I will say the the blue scribes are an amazing unit Like don't sleep on the blue scribes. Yeah. Yeah, they're almost oh absolutely man And the not just the two plus uh un unbindable for the mystic shield of the life's work You take first turn shooting pop life's one. Um, you're doing d3 or 3d3 because they're in combat um, but his ability to just 16 inches uh, maybe 20 uh, 22 with the auto roll And then 12 inches pinks Um, turn him into a monster. You got five buys on an objective like, uh, he's just so good and also, um, The uh, savage spearhead with a monster him and velikor turn him into a monster run him up to that to that, uh, those battle plans where it's got only the uh, 11 inch Sure territory. It's just he's really really good Nice. All right All right. Well, I think it's time Sean here we go Okay It's time For the great debate Uh, here we go. So I need to mark this down Uh, all right I just I'm going to tell you guys. I don't think you realize how stressed out this may be the last few years Oh, you shouldn't be stressed out. It's perfectly fine. We're going to talk about velikor and wounds turns out That the bodyguarding and the nature of ward saves and versus vis-a-vis bodyguarding has still not been clarified Uh, multiple attempts at doing this all of which have clearly failed Uh Sean is going to discuss the way that he sees this resolved and then I will rebut Uh, but I will say that I think we would all be served And Sean, I think this is probably a point of agreement We could we could stand with is we would all love to discuss I know different places in the world ruled this differently and it is a very important rule for this army I think we would all be served by a good FAQ that just clearly spelled out in very concrete terms How these things worked Stop giving these one word answers off of one example and just Write out the rules for how you want this to work. It's evident that they are aware. There's different cases Please give us a good FAQ. Is that a fair point of agreement to start? I am totally with you on that one. A clarity is the most important thing here. Absolutely because uh, It's messy right now, but let's hear both sides the discussion. So Sean take us through this Let's start with your first slide here, which is FAQ 14.3 On wards. Oh, yeah. Okay. So first off. I hope nobody goes to sleep because this wall text I wanted to do it where it was a Interon click type of thing, but it didn't work out that way. So we'll get through this together. I promise um, and So and this issue isn't only just for the legion the first place. This is something that affects multiple armies It affects so by it affects lrl Um, anything that where there's a ward and there's also An allocation roller. Um, this is important to think about and I've had this conversation so many times Not only in the you know, um LFP discord, but at events I have to talk about this with to is beforehand. I talk about it with opponents. They're like, oh, well Here's what the rules say. Um And it's one of those things where You know people might not like What way the rule is now But there's a lot of things a lot of rules that I don't like But hopefully we can get some clarity on this but based on the way the rules currently are now This is the interpretation That I and others in the LFP community have have adopted so So when you look at FAQ 14.3 on wards and this is from the latest FAQ update in december 21st 2021 So there's two questions in that section about wards the first one Um, as you can see here question one if a player makes a successful dice roll to negate a wound or mortal wound Okay, so there's a negation roll here, which means the ward roll And this triggers an effect that forces the wound or mortal wound to be allocated to a different unit um Allocated to a Different unit can intend to negate that wound So what it's basically saying here is if my ward ends up giving you a wound bounce back like in archaeon scroll Yep, um, can you negate that that bounce backward or the from the ward? So they said of course no because this could cause an infinite loop with certain um war scrolls And so anytime that you get a bounce back, uh, like for instance, um, I think it's ograt Um, uh in the nergal book that has the sixes. Yeah, he does. Yeah, a bounce back Yeah, so you're just going to take that even if you have and you get that that uh, that Wound from a ward, you're just going to take it doesn't matter Yeah So this question though does not count for lfp that has nothing to do with legion the first prince Because our we don't do bounce back mortals on ward rolls So that's it's important to note that if you attack someone with lfp And they bounce back a wound on you that you're not going to get your ward But but it's not relevant to you like other than that.  I got a six and I was like what wait All right That's how that feels. Um, and so uh the second question here So some abilities allow you to roll a dice to attempt to negate a wound or mortal wound But that role will have a different effect depending on the score of the dice And the ability that they're citing here is the praetor scroll which has Has a d3 three different versions right three things to happen based on the d3 of the roll So when one of those options is a roll when one of those d3 options is is a ward Is that roll considered a ward roll? They said yes anything that has an option in it that is a ward where there's a ward as an option in that roll is a ward roll So again, this is not applicable to legion of the first prince because we don't have anything that has these Differentiations, right? It's either you make the roll or you don't make the roll for the ward. It's not it's a ward here It's a bodyguard here. It's something else here So that does not affect us at all And what's really key is the bottom of this so remember the first FAQ they put out for 3.0 Where they had that sentence in there that said bodyguard roll bodyguard rolls are ward rolls Right, and so and that is gone So they removed that completely it is no longer in the FAQ and so the fact that they intentionally removed that if you're talking about Rules as intended that tells me that there is a clear intent to separate What we consider to be bodyguard rolls what I call referred to as allocation rolls because that's the term they use in ward rolls So those two are just two distinct things. They're no longer combined within the FAQ Sir next slide, please. Any questions on this? No, good so far. I'm gonna let you go. I'm not I'm not interjecting in the middle. Tyler if you've got thoughts go ahead Come on. Okay. I'm sure the audience can appreciate it Yeah, well the doom and darkness tuned in. Yeah, you tuned in right at the right time We're in the middle of an oxford debate doom. So don't worry. This is going to get deep This is this is the deep part of the show. Stay with us. This is almost as bad as cops. All right. Um, so second one, um So the latest abilities in question here the first day in prince we talked about This is the second part the in addition So in addition before you allocate a wound or mortal wound pick one friendly unit with a nine We already discussed this um and on a four plus that one is allocated And then we have infernal realm walkers You can roll a diocese time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to friendly to the first prince unit on a six plus That wound or mortal being that's negated So these are two distinct abilities with two distinct purposes When you look at first day in prince the important words to think about here are the allocated in the bottom Right. So on a four plus that wound or mortal wound is allocated to that unit So the word allocate a dictionary definition of allocate is um to distribute or assign Okay infernal realm walkers when you look at the last sentence it says that wound is negated So negate dictionary definition again to nullify Right. So these are two distinct words with two distinct meanings Um, and so if we could get the next slide, please, does that all clear for everybody? All good Okay, excellent. Let's talk about the unappreciated allocation step really feel like I'm in class right now. This is good. It's good Okay, so the unappreciated allocation step On to do a great job with this by the way But this is why when you came up to me at our one day or that I was so glad to see you show up to I just told you do whatever the hell you think is right my friends This is a tangled rules mess. I mean like the fact that you have to make this this Series of slides says why we need a clear FAQ, but okay, go ahead Well, and Tyler, I don't remember that if I would have remembered that things might have gone differently I'm like, sweetie, let's take this card and get some tricks. All right. So um, the unappreciated allocation step uh, so I wanted to point out the abilities and other scroll. So what I'm saying here is that GW has inserted This allocation phase in the the wound with the wound process So normally whenever you take a wound you roll an armor save, right? You roll your armor save and then the the save is unsuccessful. The wound goes through That is we don't we normally conflate that with allocation Of course, it's going to be it's going to go to this unit, right? So those have just always been conflated together What GW has done is they have started to separate that from the the armor save and where does the wound go And they've only done it in very discrete ways on scrolls In allegiance abilities. So you see with ego maniac Here's an example of this is the new one from the cruel boys war scroll. It's command trait And in this It says roll advice before you allocate a wound or mortal wound again the word allocate not negate before you allocate a wound Or instead of making a ward role for this general So they've obviously separated the two out, right? There's a you have the allocation and you have the work Um on a four plus pick one other fairly within three that wound is allocated to that unit and cannot be negated Right, so they have specifically said the allocation happens and there can be no negation So it seems very clear within this rule that they have separated allocating and negating into two different things Yep, if we look at the necromancer undead minions um He on a scroll he has a an allocation role where wounds are mortal wounds allocated to a friendly summoning unit within three on a three Plus so there's nowhere in the wording of a necromancer that it says those wounds was allocated cannot be negated So the way I would read this is that they go to the zombies And then the zombies could have a six after a six up after deathless because there's no there has not been awards that yet um That role is an allocation role it because it's not a it's not a uh a ward role The venari blade lord's guardian is a very similar thing on a two plus again No mention that awards are not allowed once allocated And then I think the most telling one is is manfred scroll where he says the first wound or mortal wound allocated This model in each phase is negated. So here we have allegation and negation specifically combined when you allocate this wound It is then negated So again, we've got these two different terms that are being used and being drawn into two separate things So, um, I'm just trying to see how many people have stopped watching You're good. We're getting deep into it. All right. So that leads us to this to this sort of how it works in practice, right? Yes Okay, so bellicor takes a wound. Let's call it a normal wound for the moment He of course gets his armor save which is you know going to be a four plus because it's an An ethereal type armor save but let's assume we bypass that. So now we're on to the next steps, right? Yeah, so and again, it's it's key here is that vince you and I are in agreement that there's only one ward per wound Like if there's there's no ambiguity about that And the core rule is 14.3 on wards does say you know only Um, uh ward role is made before so this is important to point out unless otherwise stated The ward role is made before the wound is allocated So the unless otherwise stated I think is very important because as we saw with the allegiance abilities All these things are happening that the the allocation role is happening before Before it's allocated. Um, and so we've got this breakdown here. I'm going to mine Moons wounds and mortal wounds come into bellicor If they're uh, just a wound he's going to get a four plus armor save which is ethereal And then anything that goes through He will get a four plus allocation role, uh, which we consider bodyguard But I'm using allocation because they're using the term that's the clear term they use there. So yeah Yeah, so a four plus um allocation role to a demon unit within nine inches of our those those four we talked about Um, if it's a successful allocation role now, you've decided where that wound is going So, you know, it's going to go to these battle this battle line unit There has not been a ward role role for that yet. You just know where the wound is going to go And so now you're going to have a six up ward from infernal run walkers or a five up if they're within a rheumatoid If they if he's not successful with his four up allocation role, then bellicor will have the six up or the five up Um, uh ward role. Um, and so again, there's this distinction between allocation and between negation And ultimately the most important thing and I think it was actually cut off of this the slide that you had to transfer over Vince. Yeah, it's just it's a good it's a good final statement to close on. I know you you'd speak to it Coral Coral 1.6 on abilities and effects says if an effect of an ability contradicts a core rule Then the effect takes president So and a broker was bellicor came out right before 3.0. They had everything worked out They knew what they were going to do with that. Um, the soul bite, uh Brave Lord's book with this issue too came out prior just prior to 3.0 So these are allegiance abilities and these are worse core abilities. Um, so they would supersede any sort of Core if there is ambiguity in the core rules, which I don't think there was ambiguity, but That is That is my argument, sir. Yeah, that's good. That's one thing. I was thinking could you try to Summarize your interpretation A nutshell of your understanding of John's argument before we move on to your of course So my summary Of your argument, please tell me if I misstate any facts Uh, would be that Uh, when worded correctly, there is effectively a distinction between what we would colloquially and traditionally But has no rules meaning call a bodyguard effect, which is really an allocation of where the wound goes But because of the change in the removal as it were of sorts Of the previous entry that bodyguards just simply equal Ward roles now we have officially broken these into two different steps. And so both can apply under the right Conditions, uh, in which where text wouldn't otherwise forbid i.e. something like the egomaniac you had cited, which you know Already the text is in there. That's clearly forbidding it Text which speaks to their knowledge of the difference between the two Yeah, and and what I would I think that's a that's a good summation and I would like gw to Put an allocational section in the core roles But I think that they've they've showed us enough of what their understanding is through these different areas All right, very good. Okay Uh, I you know, like it's very well put together. I think you have an incredibly good grounding for your Your your argument here like so let me just state before I rebut that I do not think in any way that you are off in Fantasyland here. I think you have an extremely good base. You're standing on All right Hey, I haven't said it yet But if you like that we occasionally delve deep into these rules or not hit that like button and subscribe What a great time to remember to remember to mention this If you're still here hit like Because sometimes we will go deep into stuff because it's worth a good discussion Okay, my rebuttal My rebuttal is this the december 2021 orata updated the 14.3 section with this this paragraph Words replace the paragraph with the following So this replaces the literally says that what they're saying here is replace the core roles 14.3 with the following paragraph Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound or mortal wound Abilities of this type are referred to as wards and the dice roll is referred to as a word roll unless stated Otherwise the word roll is made before the wound is allocated to the model in question Up to one word roll can be made for each wound or mortal wound If the word roll is successful the wound or mortal wound is negated Okay so This clearly limits words to one roll for the wound regardless of who's making it It's clear as a bell one word roll for each wound or mortal wound Which again is not a point of disagreement between Sean and I Sean's point is that There is this other thing Called an allocation roll right that is happening before this And that's not in the rules right now a word roll Okay And good I would push back and say that it's in bellicorps rules, but I'll wait until sure. No, that's fine So a roll made with a for this bellicorps sequence to work A roll made with a variable outcome like praetors Is a word roll that we have a clear answer to okay now Variable doesn't mean anything within the core game rules. That's not a game term I would argue as I did to Sean through when we were talking about this before text that in fact all Word rolls are variable rolls. Uh, so since we have to rely on the english language here Uh, would you say that the result of a d6 is a variable thing? Hmm just not we're not in tying to these rules I would I would say there is a very do you have a very variable outcomes when you roll a d6 Okay, thank you Hence all word rules are variable. I am making a bit of a jump there But nonetheless, there we go The interesting thing about the praetors is that a lot of the wording is very similar To what bellicorps does now that is to say like yada yada yada you allocate a wound or mortal wound to that hero instead of Uh, the difference is they have the thing here that says instead of making a word roll For that wound or mortal wound that would be allocated You can roll a dice like this does have the updated text of instead of making a word roll, right? Clearly implying it that it is Meant to be the word roll okay Even though nowhere on this ability until that vaq did they say this is a word roll It obviously only negates the negation Only gets triggered on the five or six Right because on one or two it remains in the hero on a three or four It goes to the praetors So but it's saying it's a word roll what that means is if you're if you have hammers of sigmar of praetors And they roll a three or four to take the wound onto themselves They don't get their word roll. They don't get their hammers word roll Right, we all agree on that. Yes. Yep. Yeah, you can't double it up because this takes the place right because they have said this is Uh, because they have said this is a word roll, right Even though at this point we haven't invoked any negation clause Right, we've only allocated up to this point like I've followed this chain and never triggered a negation clause yet Now but you haven't allocated either because allocation is on the three and four I understand allocation is wrapped up. I got it. Yeah. Yeah, I've gone to that's what I'm saying Like I've gone through all this. I never negated anything But I did not get a word roll Right Well, you won't get this is take this is the word roll So you're not so whatever happens here You're not also going to be like if you ended up rolling the One to two where it goes on the hero where you ended up rolling the three to four where it's only allocated You're not going to get your word roll as well because they've FAQed this because the most part of it. It is a word roll Absolutely. I I agree. I'm just saying I didn't hit the word. I followed that entire Life cycle of that mortal of that wound or mortal wound and I never hit the word negate Right nowhere in all of the text I read Right. Did I hit the word negate now given negate is hidden down in five and six All right, like no disagreement there Okay, so that was a potential outcome of what happened here right But I I still burnt My word roll without ever invoking a negation clause in this case because I rolled a three Right, we all agree with that and have cut off all of my abilities to to access the word roll functionality. Okay Cool. All right So This thing in specific is a word roll because of two factors Somewhere in the text it says the word negate Right and or it says this replaces your word roll They wouldn't actually have to invoke the negate clause at all Right if they just said instead of making a word roll this thing happens We could probably rightly assume That this is meant to be the word roll Right like imagine if the pray to our scroll was one to two. It stays on the hero Uh three to six in our imaginary hypothetical world It just gets allocated to the pray tours like get rid of the five and six completely If they kept the text that said instead of making a word roll this thing triggers It would seem to me that's still It's still a word roll. I wouldn't get my follow-up save Okay, I wouldn't get my follow-up word. I mean, sorry Okay That's my hypothetical now obviously I have no Like that is to say there's no hard roll to that But my hypothetical is if they include the text instead of making a word roll do this thing They're telling me this is instead of doing word rolls. This is taking that place Okay A roll made with a normal bodyguard just an allocation effectively Right that doesn't have The additive text Of either being variable in some way. It's not variable. We can't hinge it on variable Because every roll is variable in some way and you could have a hundred different Permutations of what variable is the fact that I have two outcomes versus three outcome does not have variable outcome make By english definition Okay, there is no such like I could turn left or right. That's a variable outcome If I have left right and straight. That's a variable outcome They're both variable. So it's not that word Okay It can't be the word negate As I just displayed because I don't need that word. I don't need to invoke negate to get at word roll So it has to be this other third thing this additive text that's instructing me Hey, instead of making a word roll. This is what I'm supposed to do or something like that Okay Because if it was just variable or just negate something like I have where it's what my little example is down here Which is like this is not a word each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to the boot master Roll a die on a result of two plus this wound is allocated instead to any boopity within three inches Not a word But if it was just the variability that they were answering in the question Then each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to boot master roll a dice on a result of two plus Roll an additional dice if that die is a two plus the wound is allocated instead to any boopity within three inches I would have suddenly magically even though I had Like just nothing really changed about the functionality of the rule Right other than this slight additive text I'd added right I just magically transmuted that into award if it's if it's only variability we're hanging our hat on And that's obviously nonsense Okay, like no part of that would make sense no part of us No rational human would read the first one and go definitely not award and then read the second one and go no But that one is definitely a word right That variability alone can't be what's we're hanging our hat on Okay So My argument Right now, okay Is that You are probably right By raw Because this text doesn't appear Okay But my argument is rules as intended By everything we see in current books and what this seems to want to be applying implying up in 14.3 But is bad at Is that they're trying to get this down to one Roll past the armor save and they're very poor at doing this Okay, the intention of the rule especially when I look at the new cruel boys rewritten thing Is that no no they want one they want one rule like that new cruel boys thing Supports your argument and that you can say well my text doesn't say that Yeah, I agree your text doesn't say any of that no disagreement. That's prima facie obvious, right? But what it tells me is this is the model and they're just being too lazy to go back and rewrite all of these things into the expanded text And if just literally them forgetting to put Instead of making a ward role because that's it. That's what we've come to that's the magic words right, that's the What do you say to open a door? I don't know whatever whatever Aladdin says, right? That's what it is Okay Yeah, whatever the which word whatever without those magic words. We've somehow transmuted this exactly identical ability Into a non-warp role That's clearly a fluke of rules writing like that's just bad text and the rules as intended are clear Which is you get one role Now that's where I come down Okay, so Oh Sean, I think you're muted No, he's just thinking I'm just uh, I'm just being a very very thoughtful. I was just in thought I'm waiting for my my time to speak I have concluded my rebuttal play all means please What is what is your what would be your attempt at summarizing? vences rebuttal my attempt is My attempt at summarizing vences rebuttal would be Man, it was come out. I'm not trying to be I understand it's okay. Yeah. I only want one role after the armor saves That's that's what I'm that was breaking down to I think I would say cw wants one role after the armor saving is clearly pushing in that direction And I would argue so first off intent is very difficult to prove Um, of course, it's very difficult to prove arguing rye is always the harbored. Yeah And if we're arguing intent, I would say the explicit removal of the bodyguards equals wards from the faq Is the biggest sort of sign of intent Um, and the fact that they're using the words allocate and negate In these various different places shows me pretty much that there is an intent to have two different things Um, if if they're wanting to collapse everything into a single post armor role Then why didn't they just faq the uh, leisure the first principality for bellicor to a four plus ward They had two chances to do that Since the book came out At with major faqs and they chose not to and there's other instances in various armies and LRL so blight where this is the case And they have consistently chose not to and the cruel boys Commandability I think is actually really telling it is the exception that proves the rule It's not this is what they really want It's this shows that they specifically said you can't do this thing because that thing is happening elsewhere It's basically a nerf that they gave cruel boys. I don't know why they did it, but they decided to Um, and so I mean, there's a lot of things. I mean, I understand where you're coming from It's another role that some people are like, I'd have to deal with another role Um, but that's the rules as they are I mean and and to's are going to rule this any way they want right and that's the thing It's a to runs their event. They can do whatever they want to do but From the way that Myself and others who have thought probably way too much about this Spent way too much brainpower on it That needs to be up front at the beginning in the pack Um, and there's other things that I mean why not make marathis commandability melee only right Why not make sure lrl has to have line of sight like there's so many other things other rules that we don't like That we play by because they're in the rules. It just seems to me that this is pretty clear Um that there's negate and there's allocate There's rules and lesion of the first prince that deal with both of them together There's rules elsewhere that deal with both of them separate and together And it seems pretty clear that this is what they're wanting Okay I will agree with you that intention is hard to ascribe and I so if it doesn't work for me It would also not work for you is what i'll say there so negating both of our our appeals to intention I'm okay with Yeah, um, I think we can we can leave this because I don't want to make this the whole show But uh, I would I would hang my final hat since it's my show.  Um I would hang my final hat on the idea that Uh, I put no stock in them not updating rules or answering questions We could pick a thousand instances of where they forgot didn't write things right took three FAQs I mean it took four shots five shots of the sylvaneth wild woods to get them correct And then they still forgot rules on there I wouldn't ascribe intention that they thought oh sylvaneth aren't supposed to teleport because this was their fourth time fixing the the wild woods and they forgot the teleport right so Like this kind of uh thing Is simply a messy rules area and they don't like going back as they have proven multiple times And updating slews of old war scrolls with massive amounts of new techs They just figure that's not a big deal. We'll wait till the book comes out now All that being said I will as I said, I think you stand on firmer ground raw I agree and so my advice to Anyone playing this army would be talk to your to exactly as sean said, you know, understand how your to use this rule how they're going to interpret it because the Final thing that I think we both agree on in a big way is how this plays We'll have a big effect on your army and what it does and what it's capable of doing and you should be You should be understanding how your tournament is going to rule it and play accordingly So yeah, definitely and I'm glad you have less word Vince you've got it I just want to thank you for letting us have this discussion because this is the biggest issue for the people with playing this army They come to it. I mean, this is all that's in the chat all the time It's like we're having this discussion again because there's so much Ambiguity so many different regions are doing differently. So hopefully if anything this the show if anybody gw does watch Please clarify this The thing we can both agree on without a doubt Okay, so yeah, just to be on brand. I'm going I think Don is right on raw and Vince is right on Bulls as intended Taking that middle ground. Nope. That's fine. I I would agree with you. That's the problem At any rate Okay, I'm here to be I'm here to be helpful guys Yeah, no, thanks. All right, let's get into some lists. So here we go Uh, let's leave. Let's leave that deep behind that deep rules Well behind and uh and go to some fun times, which is some lists All right, so these were all provided by Sean. Let's drop that heat talk about the units that are going to be here. Boom Coming up first We have your very first list. I don't know if I put these in the order You said them to be in or not Uh, but so the first list is bellicor Bloodthirster vincenzi rage kairos the wrath of corn bloodthirster five flesh hounds five flesh hounds 10 pink horrors of zinch with an emerald life swarm and an umbil spell umbral Spell portal with uh as much of this as you can wrapped up into a battle ridge Take us through this bad boy right here Tyler you want to talk about your experience with this list? This is what I play to find monkey. Yeah, he did. Yeah. No. Yeah very strong list. Yeah. Um The way man. Yeah, it's it was solid Yeah, I actually I did have one. Sorry. I think you don't have to answer right now But I'm curious about your experience with this list and listen general with LFP. I'll try to be good and and and we'll stop the I do love vincenzi version though the How you've been finding four plus objective missions No, we talk all the time about power per square inch a lot of missions are three objectives You can burn a lot of them where you go down to two objectives This army can at least with the control or the control direction of the army if you lean into that You know, it can really benefit from that from that orientation Yeah, I'm curious how you've found, you know, four or five six objectives with this army Yeah, um, yeah this so that's a good question. Um Let me uh, let me break down the army real quick and then I'll definitely get to that Because I think it plays differently on the based on the missions But the sobella core, of course the and this one I brought the bloodthirsty to say rage Who's you know the on a six is to wound as four mortals to everything with an eight And so that's you know, you you got to get him past the hit gate. So force to hit But the wrath of corn bloodthirster really helps with that because he does have the Holy within 16 corn demon can it's a commandability in the combat phase Of course all the corn's stacking basically the combat phase But he got a friendly corn demon hole within 16 can reroll hits So he's going to be giving that out to the bloodthirst of instance a rage You're rerolling those five attacks looking for fours Once you get past the hit gate before you've got a moon gate of a two It's pretty easy to get by Um, and he can just do some serious damage every time I put him in a list He's the most targeted unit Um, and that is wonderful because I get to know where they're going to go for And so whenever they see that that boom thruster out there that that instance a rage It always gravitates the enemy always gravitates the enemy the opponent This is a game always gravitates towards that model And kairos, of course, he's great because he's got the you know mortal wound spell through the spell portal He's going to do six mortals What I like to do with kairos so kairos was basically there when I made this list I said what's the meta look like and I need to deal with shooting So kairos was my intention of shooting of course popping Sending at 36 inches with the spell portal. I'm sorry 30 30 It's 18 inches another 36 inches with the spell portal and Being able to kill one of those bow snakes one of those Raptors popping in a spawn making them attack it. They're not going to kill it There's a lot of play you need to do with that spawn though Because the wording of it is you place the spawn holy within within three inches of the unit And then they pull So you really need to balance out Do I want to make sure I keep the spawn in combat because they could always pull out where he's new in combat anymore? Um, and so you need to decide what you're going to do with that Keeping a shooting unit in combat is really important because then they have to shoot into it Um, what I've also done with that spawn though is I've if that's if they don't have shooting I need to worry about I've popped it into a Um a battle line unit in the front like I there was a game. I remember against fec Um, I think adam's in the chat. He's one of a great really great fec player locally But I put it in his battle line and then it retreated it out Um, and when I retreated out of his battle line because it comes out of the hero phase We can still move when I retreated out on 2d6 move that blocked his Terrorized because he he can't land within three right? So you really have a seven inch or eight inch Sort of radius of a circle where you said no you can't go here So again, you've got the control without having to do, you know, the demon prints and a lot of other stuff Um, but I think it's so the the kiosk spawns are a really interesting Option to use in this list And then of course kairos has the the flip one of the dice which is which is really clutch I tend to forget it. I mean I hate to say that but it's hard to remember Unless I write myself a note to do that. Um, and then the wrath of corn bloodthirster Oh, I love this guy so much. Actually, he's been superseded by my my most recent favorite bloodthirster We'll get to that soon But he is uh, he's the general he's got the runosaurus who's broadcasting the aid up and again a deployment I would have kairos in the back wrath Boom and bellicor all of them with an eight Um, but he's got that arcane tome So on his scroll the wording of a scroll is really important. He has this ability where it says, um, this Unit can unbind one spell on the enemy hero phase In addition unbinds for this unit are plus two or something or gets this unit gets plus two unbinds And he's not a wizard. So when you give him arcane tome, you now have two unbinds at plus two Um, so you can actually have a chance and I've done this before I have unbound kairos because they can only max at 12 Right, but you do have that plus two. So it does give that extra legs Um to get over some of those those spell doms and you've got two of them, which is really nice And then the flamie weapon on his axe. He's got six attacks a d3 plus one damage Um, it's pretty nice. I can add up to to some serious work minus two resin Um, and then the flesh hounds. Um, so we've got the my usual deployment is the pinks up in front They're going to keep up with bellicor because I you can't be guaranteed you're good So as the player I can't be guaranteed. I'm going to make a summons as the opponent you should always play that I'm going to make a summons That's just like what you should always think of And the best way to play against leaving the first prince with summoning is to screen throughout the entire game Because I have to come in with side of nothing And so most folks are really good at screening when they're deployment But as you're moving you need to be thinking where's my outside of dying space Where are you where is this opponent going to be able to bring in their summons? Um, I did have a really interesting game I don't think the siege player I played tried to do this But I ended up moving bellicor up and I got my summon off and I'm like I can't bring it anything It totally sucks because I just I was blocked out I just couldn't bring in the unit of five pinks because everything wasn't with it. I didn't have any space Um, but in an appointment I will usually do because I play against storm class a lot a lot of deep striking I usually have the flesh hounds on the side and I'll of course measure Um, you know nine inches at least if they're bringing something like um annihilators those bases are pretty solid I'll measure 10 or 11 inches out. I know they can't get a unit back there And I'll screen the black field with the hounds screen the back field with the hounds have the pinks here Um, I know some variation of that But yeah, the hounds are always screen the back field and then it's harder for them to get broken ranks that way And I can then have them to run Later on the game up the board if I need them to But yeah with those those bases on the flesh hounds, you know, we've been seeing that since Though gosh the legions of negash today is With the the dire wolves, you know, you've got a classic Footprint set up there for your deployment. Yeah zoning out a lot of space particularly those two by five flesh hounds. Yeah, that's great And it was those poor wolves. So do you need a 10? The five the five is great. The five will take up take up some space Uh Very nice. All right, let's get to list two I'm just really quick. But Tyler's question about the six. Yeah, objectives. Yeah four to four to six. Yeah Yeah, so The the only one that I've had a real problem with with this list I think it wasn't flying monkey ended up winning that game anyway, but it was uh The one where only were battle line have objective secured. Um, that is not fun Oh with this But it is nice when you can take a unit of five horrors up there against the non-battle line and just say I'm sorry five of flesh hounds and say it's one of them But yeah, it was really it was kind of tricky with that because all the summoning units don't count as battle line because they Weren't getting that list creation Um, so you need to be a little more careful with I think savage gains is my most favorite Mission in the whole chp better. It was more so when they didn't have it where you could score two on both Double up. Yeah, of course when it was when it was designed correctly. Yes, and they FAQed it wrong. Yep, you're right Exactly, but um, but it's it's a great mission. It's also a great mission to teach people on I think um, because it give it um Really forces them to start thinking about defensively as well as power projecting like you need to hold this because it's worth four um, but with this one, it's you know, run up the middle are Find their weak side run up that side swing a little bit that side have the pinks go up And then you can always bring the bloodthirsters over here to this objective if they stay there But you can get something on their back objective Turn two turn well actually so turn one. I was playing a storm cast list and One of the guys here Jesse who's you ended up actually being the last game for great planes monsters the invitation He's really good storm cast player But he was running, um in astra and he had her back on his four and then he had a unit of five And I brought in I summoned a unit of horrors made the nine inch charge I had a unit of five summoned horrors on his back objective. They got popped. I took it top alone Oh, that's that's four points And so for the rest of the game, he's trying to get his back while trying to get mine And of course when he gets back it only counts for one anyway So just the ability to to move and that's again the the demon prince Um, you know, he's taken points, but I'm putting those points in thirsters They only go 10 inches But we'll see how we deal with that later But the ability to just move up the board and just say this space is mine Is super powerful and to me that's the control in this army Interesting so I didn't quite I So, I mean in general is your sense that in your experience you can still do pretty well On four five six objective missions with the way that you've been playing this army Yeah, I have to pick what objectives i'm not going to go for I mean so and and all these missions like the six objective ones And the burning and everything really makes it kind of tricky But you have to say okay if it's month if I get priority In turn three and I give it away What am I going to burn and I need to start thinking about that turn one Like I have to I have to write off that one on the back left, right? I'm not going to go there That's just going to be an option to Or in one of the threes the the mission with the three in the middle I look at the deployment and I say okay, we're the two that I'm dealing with Because there's no point never holding a third And it's so what are the two I'm putting bodies on And what's the one that I want to fight over Um, I think the thing that cost me the two points in my game against joe, which again was a great game But like I said, he had all those phoenix guys here with their stay saves and their wards And I said well, I'm just going to split the difference He can't move off of it in time But I couldn't get here in time and that's what it's what cost me So yeah, I think that you've you've got to you've got to strategize ahead and say, you know What's my victory? I can't you can't hold them all and you don't want to hold them all There's really no mission. I think we're Yeah, I mean, I don't think savage gains at the start of round one where you want to get something over here to get that extra two Most games last question events we move on in most games. So obviously in deployment. Sorry Killing me keep going Most games are you finding that obviously in a deployment you're keeping I would suspect the big pieces together Within the whole of the nate you tend to find as the games go on That tends to be the case or are you splitting them up more often than not like in our game? You mostly have them together We round three. I think you the bloodthirster came out a little bit, but it was kind of curious in terms of how that tends to play out Yeah, I Well, when it comes to thrusters, I tend to keep them together The reason that the corn is corn. Yeah, giving them a five plus just totally changes that unit. It just It's insane how how much the unit changes with that five plus after Um, but the uh, but I'll be I'm willing to peel bellicor off as long as he's got you know, something to to allocate to But but yeah, normally that the power block is kind of hunting, you know, like a like a school of sharks Okay, cool nice All right, uh, next up. We've got uh Bellicor the blue scribes and the contorted epitome in our leader block so very different looking leader block And uh, this time we've got five flesh hounds five flesh hounds 10 pink horrors 12 furies 12 furies And a soul grinder. That's right The soul grinder in the house Uh with the emerald life swarm the soul screen bridge and the burning head Uh with again as sort of as much as we can wrapped up into a battle rich Okay, uh, which is basically everything in this list because this list actually fits into the one drop really nicely because of the soul grinder being a behemoth All right, so So obviously this is your one drop build out and this does use the the four fold blade on the contorted epitome Where it's nine attacks can can supplement that uh that four fold blade very well classic four fold blade holder Because two up against mortals slash very fast model zipping around the board at 12 inches Uh, and then makes a lot of attacks and can really do some surprising work. Okay, so take us through this bad boy All right, um, well just just real quick vince before I do I'd like to mention in the chat someone's talk about You know kairos the importance of kairos, um the reason I moved away from kairos is because of the The um ability to like I said auto deny and I've missed I've whiffed on those that spell And also the six mortals isn't going to get you a spawn all the time Especially when you go against the gargants right six mortals is Kind of like you're kicking them in the knee And so there's just a lot of things where I was like, you know kairos might not be the best way to go on this He's still a good piece But once he if he gets denied or isn't get that spell off He's kind of uh, just a big body that sits there You can do anything beyond that so this list, um This is just kind of uh, I don't want to say it's a fun list But this is I'm going to dominate the board. You stick control and I'm going to make you kind of beat me up In bellicor is the general and very rarely will I run him as a general But this does allow him to bring back the d3 at each battle shock phase I'm on a three up So he's going to be doing that with the flesh hounds But he's going to be doing that with the furies and that's the key point here Is that you're going to have to use the 12 furies, which until you play with furies, especially a block of 12 I don't think you realize how amazing these little buggers are Um, they're awesome. Um, they're fours and three two attacks apiece fours and threes minus one ran one damage on their profile No, no save to speak of but they they can hit if you want them to but of course you don't necessarily want them to So you get them in combat You cower instead of when you activate them you cower instead of fight and you just take them back four inches And they sit there and you've got this other mobile screen or they're here on the objective on this side You're in combat and you jump them to the other side of the objective within six I still hold it. I'm not in combat anymore. Um, and you just let them kind of chase you around. Um, and it's It's kind of infuriating But it's also a really really fun as a player because you just anytime you can move like to me movement wins games I am I love the opinion that You can win a game of age of sigmar without killing a single enemy unit And