We ain't got to say no names, but you have a bit of the building and you, like, all right, you might be in a studio or something, a girl in there with a rapping, you walk in and it's like, ah. And she changed locations. She changed locations. She changed locations. She's gonna change locations. It's just like, ah. Yeah. But I'm gonna keep it play though. Like, yeah. Wow. Yeah. A lot. No. No.  Don't make an obvious, bro. If I walk up in there and they'll be like, hey, sir, acting different. Yeah. Yeah. This ain't that. Nah. I don't know how. I don't know. I ain't even know. Y'all knew each other. The crazy part is I don't know if he in love with you or not. So I don't know you. Right. Right. That's how you're supposed to blow it up. I don't know if he in love with you or not. No. Yeah. Because you don't know. You don't know what the dudes are doing. Like my thing is, and they be, I got homegirls, like, they just kick it.


Boomer on. In this week's episode is brought to you by Platinum Wave Campers, the UK's leading stockist of luxury Volkswagen camper vans. With locations up and down the country, Platinum Wave Campers are on hand to bring your vision to life. So whether you are looking to start working on a custom-built project or find your dream Volkswagen transporter, this is a place to look. Ever dreamed of owning your own Volkswagen camper van? Well now's your chance as you can save £500 by using the code James500. All you have to do is speak to one of their friendly sales team and say that James Ingleys sent you there. Now let's get into the episode. You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. Boomer on. That we live, yeah? Yes, it is, bro. A few days' guess, I've got Sonny Pike. How are you, Sonny Pike? I'm fine, lovely mate, good. So football sensation dubbed the next Maradona, the next George Best. Legs ensured for a milking quid, played with Ajax, like, all over. Like I say, one of the biggest prodigies on the planet at a time. It's a mad story. You've released your book which will plug straight away, The Greatest Footballer That Never Was by Sonny Pike. Where can people get this, Sonny? At Amazon. Yeah, it's in, like, W.H. Smiths and Oldham and Waterstones and them sort of places, but Amazon's the place that most people may get it from. Fascinating read. Brought into the kind of limelight at a very young age. Yeah. McDonald's adverts, Coca-Cola adverts, like, for such a young kid, like, it's obviously played a massive effect on your creator, obviously, as you've got Aldo, which will touch on that. First and foremost, how are you? Good. Yeah, good. Yeah, just making my way over it today. Back in, I ain't been in the cab for a while since COVID's kicked in. Obviously, I'm a black cab driver as well. So I haven't been in it for like two years. That was quite nice coming through London. Have a little look. Not in the cab. Keep going down the bus lanes, thinking I can do everything in my normal car, which I can't.  But yeah, no, good. Nice to be back in London and see yourself. And yeah, all good, mate. Good, bro. As you know, I always go back to the start for my guests. Where you grew up and how it all began. Right. So where it all started is, the best way to say it started is in the sand of Bow Bells. So if you're from London, Bow Churchyard is an area next to the hospital, which is St Bartholomew's, which is a city hospital where I was born on the 12th of the 9th, 83. So I was born in the city and they say if you're, if you, if you're born inside the sand of Bow Bells, you're a cockney. So I was born there. So there's a lot of out of East London in the city, South East London. I was born there, lived in East London, lived in Bow, by the fire station. And then where do we go? Went to Islington for a while, not far from the Arsenal football ground. And then my mum and dad sort of up sticks and moved out like a lot of families do, I suppose. They get a little bit cheaper out of London. We went to Enfield. And what it was, it was set up for the time when I went to primary school, which was about five, six years old. So we went into there, went to Enfield and I was ready to go to my primary school at about five, six years old. We moved out to Enfield, got two sisters. They was both older than me. Most of my family from East London, dad was in, dad was into boxing or into a big boxing family. My granddad run Repton Boxing Club for 12 years. He was a club secretary there. Fort Charlie Cray. Boxing environment, the whole house was sort of more boxing. No one was really football.  My dad's side of the family, both my both families, Hackney and Bethnal Green, my dad's side of the family, he's got like nine brothers, sisters, really a little two up and down, rammed out to the rafters atmosphere, like cousins everywhere, hustle, bustle sort of vibe. My granddad, as I said, loved the boxing, just helping me, having me holding the cushions up in there, jabbing cushions and moving, trying to get me to be a boxer. My dad's going, no, he's mum don't want him to be a boxer. So I had that sort of hustle and bustle off my dad's side, which I loved. And then my mum's side was a little bit more quieter. Just my nan and my mum and sister and the brother, my uncle Victor, a little bit more quieter. And that was me really, as I said, we went out to Enfield and I was ready to go to primary school and that sort of took me up until I was like, say, five, six years old, settled in Enfield, which is quite a nice little area. Yeah, and that was me really. What was school like? I liked school. Yeah, quite, I didn't mind school. I never won no one's, I sort of hate school, like the social side of it, love my friends. Obviously the bit I love most was like break times and lunch times, because you get to play football. And at that time, as I said, no one really in my family was into football. It was all sort of boxing. And there was a couple of the kids there support Arsenal Tottenham that sort of area in North London. And then there was this one boy called David who supported Liverpool. And at that time, it was John Barnes and Ian Rush. And all I wanted to do is just copy them and tell me about them. Then I started watching them. And then we'd play lunchtime and break time.   Always pretending to be in Russian and John Barnes, me and my mate David was always on the same team. And we should like do commentaries. Oh, Barnes is coming down the wing. He's going to cut it and I'll be in the middle rush, take a touch and finish it off and we'll be celebrated. Love love secondary school because of that sort of stuff. And then they made that first school team, which I played in. And it was all kids that was about like eight, nine years old, 10 years old and it was like me five or six.  So that was all good. What was your first football team you played for? The first football team I played for is actually a team called Field End, which turned into Enfield Football Club. Yeah. And I remember I played I played up front straight away and I think I scored 49 goals in my first season. And then as I said, that turned into Enfield Football Club. Brilliant. Yeah, Enfield Football and we used to go have a like there was a bar after and you could watch Enfield play, which is like a conference sort of team at that time. My dad would have a drink. I'll be playing pool and running around or running out on the first team pitch getting shouted at by the Gransmen like and we were having a little laugh and playing football day. Yeah, that was the start of the start of it. Yeah. Start of the madness. That pretty much. Yeah, that was the start of it when I started getting really sort of looked at more because obviously Enfield were on a bad team now. I think there was only one one division of being a professional team. And yeah, and that's when it sort of all started over Enfield planfields, which is pretty much the equivalent of like Hackney Marshes, which over is 100 pitches on it or something like that same similar type thing in Enfield where everyone used to go. Yeah. But you're not starting off as a goalkeeper. Yeah. Yeah, one of my first games actually put me in goal for that Field End game. Why was that? It was awful because I remember I bet very much not played a lot of football apart from in the playground with me, mate. And they've put me in goal. It's gone in and just remembered a feeling everyone kind of, oh, son, what are you doing? What's happening? They're pulling the ball out of the net. I was thinking, mate, I never want to be here again. I don't want to go in goal. Nothing to do with it. Told me dad like that just tends to put me anywhere but up but in goal sort of thing. So yeah, not the best. Not the best. Your name is well, Sonny. It's your real name's Luke. Exactly. Yeah. What's the connection to do with the Godfather? All right. Yeah, because my name's Luke Santino. Yeah. So Santino is the guy and Godfather isn't his sonny. So he's actually in Italian, Sonny means Santino. So yeah, so it's Santino out of the Godfather and obviously Sonny Liston as well. As I said, big boxing family. So it was other probably asked me dad that's where it's probably come from. I like Sonny's name anyway. It is a strong name. I do like Sonny. So when you started kind of getting through the ranks at football, like, when did you realise you had a talent? Was that from an early age or did that take time? I think the fact that the first thing was that I knew I could score goals. I was pretty good around the box and I'd score a lot of goals sort of in compared to most other kids in the league. Another big thing I think I'd sort of in my favour, I thought I stood out a little bit more was my actual mindset. Going into the games, even at a young age, I was pretty hungry to win. And there was a lot of kids there that were just playing sort of for fun, which don't get me wrong, I did. But I had this sort of mindset built into me quite early that winning was important. And if we're not going to give our best, then we don't want to bother turning up certain things that I remember from when I was young actually going through the book, just talking tune as making me remember some of the things. I remember Mike Tyson, Bruno, the first time they fought. And I think I was about six years old. It was on, I'd say, four o'clock in the morning. And I came downstairs. My dad was down there. We're not long moved into the house in Enfield. I'm down there with my uncle. And obviously, it's like three or four o'clock in the morning of people. And now I want to watch it. I don't want to get told off, obviously. But then my dad said, I'm hiding behind the catch. Go and come up here. Go and set up on his lap. And I'm watching it now. And then you remember when Tyson used to walk out into the into the ring, he could feel the atmosphere in my living room as if it was about to go off. I was like, whoa, what's going on? He's walking out. You know, he was just fearless, winning. And they got us put up next to each other. And I said, dad, who's going to win? I ain't got a clue. I'm looking at Bruno. I'm thinking Bruno's bigger. I'm saying, this guy, this Bruno's got to win. And he's going, no, he said he's lost the fight already. I said, what do you mean? He said, look at Tyson.  He said, he's going to, he's like mentally, like that mental sort of side of it. He'd beat him already. And you could see when he's, when there's, I think there's actually a clip when he's, so I'd say, and you can see Tyson's eyes, he's on him. And he, and you can just, and you can, and Bruno's looking at him and you think, you could just sell something in that look.  I started to play football. And I was just like a kid on a mission. Do you know what I mean? I grabbed the ball, bang, anything, half an inch, get around and defend up, bang, I'm shooting. In the box, I'm shooting. I must have been like not the best person to play with because I was pretty greedy. But I had that sort of side to me as well. And then I could finish. I could finish. When did you start getting that attention to watch up, playing career? How young were you? I was quite, quite young. I don't want to say about seven or eight years old. I remember one of the first things, a guy called Graham Roberts who plays for Tottenham. He put on like a summer camp and they did like a penalty shootout competition from all the ages from like, say six to 16 and then I ended up winning the penalty shootout competition for my age. And then the winner who won the whole thing out of all the ages ended up in the local newspaper and I beat like the 16 year old and I was only like, say seven or eight. And I got to, it was like for charity as well. So that was my first time I got a little clip in the newspaper of me winning this competition with Graham Roberts and this, that and the other. And then off the back of that people was watching me at Enfield. And then I'll just get a little tiny right up in the ad for local advertisers. It's like Sonny scores a clear winner or Sonny Pikes doing well this Daniel. And it just be like local newspapers really. Did you enjoy it at that team? Was that exciting for you? That was the best time because the pressure and everything else wasn't wasn't really nothing. I mean they knew me locally in the clubhouse and this Daniel. It's just like, oh that's Sonny. Yeah, he's not a bad little player. But that's all it was. Do you know what I mean? It weren't like Sonny's going to take on the world and win us the World Cup sort of thing. So it was quite nice. I could, I could, I could deal with that pressure. Oh, it was fine. I sort of thrived off it in some ways. So I think like the local teams would come in and want to be, oh, we're going to turn Sonny's team over. And I'd be like, no, go on, I'm going to show you. And I sort of, I sort of thrived off it, if anything. What is the gestart feeling about pressure? I think more so, I mean, just sort of jumping on a little bit. When I was 10 years old, they put me on London tonight, which is like the news. And it was like, that song, we're going to make you a star. I can't remember if someone, it was me and it was like a little clip, a little five minute clip. And they interviewed me, played me, watched me, film me playing a game. And I done really well in this game. It was like 4-1 or something like that. And I scored all four goals, taking on the goalkeeper.  I've got like yellow, like gold sort of boots, long hair. I stand out like I saw from and I'm scoring gold and I'm on the telly. And then from that one, when it went on to London tonight, that's when I thought it went up a gear. That was like sort of 10 years old. And that wasn't out of control. But by the time, because it was up between 10 and 14, when I got the most exposure, but I'd say from the middle onwards, when I came back from Ajax, which is a little bit after the the news article and London tonight, when I came back from Ajax, that's when I started to feel the pressure, because it went up to another level. When did you got Ajax with age? I was 12. And how did you end up over there? Well, that actual, that thing was on the news that London tonight, I think they caught wind of it in Holland. Because in some of the questions they asked me, they was asking me my favourite players. And I started talking about Cruyff and Maradona. And I was asking me my favourite teams. I was talking about Boca Juniors, Santos, and they're like, what's this little kid talking about? Like, do you know what I mean? I was really into the sort of technical and the flair side of it, really a young age, because my dad brought me in this videotape and it had Maradona, Pele and Cruyff on it. Cruyff done? Yeah. And so I would just put that in the video and just watch it religiously. And I would just be looking at all the skills. I was really into that. And obviously back then the game was completely different. We was playing on a full-size pitch, right? And then thick mud, you can just about get the ball out of the box. If you're a goalkeeper, I used to wait at the edge of the box, just take a touch and a shoot. And I'm talking about skills and technical. And it wasn't like that, was it? It was just like, buy it, buy it, buy it and everything you've got to do to win type thing. And I was talking about that on the interview. I was talking about skills and talking about technique. And I think they caught wind of that in Holland. And then not long after, my dad just rang me up and said, I've got a phone call. Like you could go to final or you could go to Ajax. When he said Ajax, I thought, I'll call it straight away. And I thought, well, let's go to Ajax. Was there any who was because they had like Clive here coming through the ranks. They had like so many, the Dutch players back then, especially in the 90s. Like they, I think they changed the training regime. It was all kind of one touch and passing. And they did change the game of as far as I'm aware in the 90s, I used to playing football in Scotland. But it was just kind of long ball header on and exactly. And I remember in the late nineties, you used to see like Ajax kids because there was players coming through at 16, 17, 18. And yeah, a good few of the Dutch came through at that time. Was there any name in that over in Holland when you were there? Yeah. So when I went there, I always remember actually, we was having something to eat and they had a guy there talking to me and was getting ready to train. I was there for a trial for like a week. And actually, it was Van Gaal. And I was with my dad, Van Gaal came in and he and I was having a cup of tea and he gave me some biscuits and put them aside as I'm having it. And my dad's like, who's this? I said, that's Van Gaal. That's the first team manager. My dad's like, I got a clue. I said, probably thought it was like doing a sweeping up or something. You know, I never had a clue, but he went to me. If you want, son, go downstairs and watch the first team train. So actually, I was set up at that point because it was at the old stadium that the first team training was here. The stadium was there and the academy was at the back. So he said, go downstairs and go at the front and watch the first team train. So I was like, whoa, I went down there, I was gone. And there was like a chain link fence around it. And I was holding on to it. And I looked in there and I could see Overmars, Lippmann, I think Burr Camp was there, the Boar Brothers and Canoe. And that's the one they told me to watch you in. When you go down there, watch a boy called Canoe. Big guy, big black guy. I was like, yeah, okay. He's only, I think it was only meant to be about three or three years older me at that point. I think it was meant to be 16 or 17. And I was like, say 12. So I was like, all right, I watched him. So I watched him. And obviously the experience just watching them train on, but it's unbelievable. I'm holding onto the fence and it's like, what's going on? Seeing them do certain things. And then back at the hotel at the night, actually not at the hotel, at the digs, they gave us like a little guy called Tom Prunk, who was the offender. He was running the academy. He gave us a place to stay. I was back in the room trying this sort of skill that I see Yari Litman was doing. And I was just practicing it and practicing it and practicing it. So yeah, I mean, it was unbelievable. Would you practice every day with the ball? Yeah, every day. What sort of drills were you doing? I used to do a lot of stuff off the wall.  And just sort of things like that. You left footed? I was right footed. But I got to say, after a while, I was pretty much close to both footed because I used to be on the wall nonstop. Like Bird Camp did that. I actually took that from Bird Camp. Bird Camp used to do a lot of stuff off the wall. He's one of the greatest players I've seen in the Premier League. Premier League. He's one of my favourite players. Just touching the ball outside the foot, just getting so comfortable with the ball. And that's what I did when I came back home. He just made it look so easy, especially his touch. I don't know if it was his goal for Holland, like he brought it down and just thinking like just stuck his feet like glue. You see the one against the other when he comes and he touches it on the outside. He spins it around, runs around. Can't do that to people. Can't do that to people. Can't do that to people. So what happened after your week trial then? Yeah, so I came back from my trial when I was on the trial. Blue Peter was there. Trans World Sport, remember them? Yeah. Football one day out. And there was a couple of other Dutch TV companies out there, sort of filming my whole trial, my whole experience. In the trial, I had a lot of media stuff. So I'd go for my training and then I'd have to go media. And then at the end of the week, they was like, there's a game on Saturday, one o'clock in the afternoon. So I was like, all right, this is obviously a big game sort of thing. He said, but yeah, the night after, he said, they want you up at five in the morning. They want you in Amsterdam.  I'm like, yeah, but then I've got a game at one o'clock. I don't want to overdo it. I want to be fresh. He said, well, we've got to do it. We've got all these camera crews here. We've got to do what we've got to do. And I'm like, it's sort of ruining what I'm trying to achieve. Do you know what I mean? So it's a sort of bit of a eye opener. Anyway, I ended up doing that. I played the last game and we drew one and I scored from outside the box. But I was knackered. I'd done like five or six hours of media work prior to that from like five, six in the morning until like 12 o'clock. They had me at the flower market. They had me doing interviews in calves. They had me doing kickups in the street. There's Daniela.  So that was a bit of a bit of a right and on the wall. Anyway, so I come back from from that trial. The camera crews have all come back to England as well and see me open like the letter from Ajax in my garden where like my whole family was. We was all together all my sisters and my mum. But really my family was actually breaking apart at that point. Like my dad had left. He weren't living with us, but it was all put together for the camera. Do you know what I mean? It was all sort of there. We were all sitting there. Oh, then anyway, I open up the letter. They say technically I'm as good as what they've got because all the players out there was really technically good. I was pretty similar. But they wanted me to come back every quarter, like every three months and keep and keep an eye on me and sort of that was going to be the idea anyway. That didn't end up happening because obviously all the other stuff that ended up happening next. Was it when you were doing all the interviews and all the magazines, were you getting paid for it? Yeah. Yeah. I don't maybe not as much first of all. But then after a while they started sort of to send some money. Because in your book obviously it says your mum and dad's heart. You struggled a lot. There's a lot of fights behind the scenes that you figured out later. Do you think your dad not realising at the time but try to just get as much money as he can just to provide for the family obviously not knowing the stresses it's putting on yourself? That's the thing. I think it just got to a stage where it's like probably didn't even expect it to go to the lengths it did and just thought like let's just get what we can now instead of sort of thinking long term like now I'm always forever thinking like what I'm going to do five, ten years down the line. Do you know what I mean? But like yeah I think that's what happened. What was the story on the book when you were out your friends on the bike and you drove to the bridge Suicide Bridge? Yeah, so I was How old were you? I was at that age I was fourteen. So to sort of break it down the best way I'd been back from IAX I'd end up becoming like real famous when I come back from IAX it took me to another level like I was doing like you said earlier McDonald's Adverts I was the Coca-Cola kid that'd bring me out in the middle of the pitch at Wembley before like Leeds and Villa here comes Sonny Pike the Coca-Cola kid and go up into the middle pitch do the like the Badgio 7 off one foot off one leg and this that and the other all the skills I was doing subutio things I was doing things actually what was going on and towards America I did the first Disney magazine that come to England I got all sort of high profile I was getting remember Sky Sports they used to do an award ceremony every year in 95 and 96 so in other words like you know like your team at the end of the year they give out their awards they was doing it on Sky that obviously Sky was just getting big into football and they're starting to get that sort of crossover it's becoming sort of celebrity and football at that time and they was doing and they was doing all the sort of stuff for that and I used to get the award I got the award for like the youngest player in 95 I'll be there Hamid and Eubank and this that and the other getting my award in 96 I got it as well yeah so I went to another level sort of stardom and then it all sort of come sort of tumbling down in some ways and then I found myself I found myself on that bridge because because of all the stardom it sort of started happening and it started to become like my football started to become second before becoming like a celebrity let's say and I found myself me and my dad was going back and forth a little bit like my dad would be sort of really pushing for me to do this that and the other and I'd be like dad jeb I just want to play football really do you know what I mean and the key point was they made a documentary that ended up being aired on Channel 4 it was called Fair Game and it was about I was told it was just about me doing really well in football and hopefully going to be this next player it was me Scott Parker was in it there was a few other players in it but it was actually called Coaching and Poaching it was a part of a four part series and the fourth part was it's called Coaching and Poaching and that was me and it was made by Greg Dyke who ended up running the FA this is where it gets a little bit like I found myself in a position like well what am I going to do because he made the show and it was me being the Latin Orient but being sort of tapped up by Chelsea and they filmed me at Orient and then they filmed me behind the scenes they got like a camera to come behind the curtains it was in an indoor sports hall and there was this guy sort of filming me with a little camera and at Chelsea and then they put it out on the TV and made Chelsea look really bad which to be fair to Chelsea I didn't even do nothing wrong because I wasn't even signed at Latin Orient anyway I've been there for a year or two but I wasn't officially signed I could have my dad signed the papers my mum was meant to sign the papers so I ended up going out on Channel 4 and off the back of that I knew that looked really bad on me do you know what I mean it looked terrible and I fell out on my dad over it and then that's when I led to the situation why terrible though a kid at 14 want to talk to other teams why was it so bad I mean the fact that they made it look like they just sort of tapped they sort of tapped me up and I should be signed here because like Greg Dykes going to the to the Latin Orient coach he's like if we had a video of Sonny Pike playing for Chelsea what would you say and say well we've heard rumours actually that Sonny could be at Chelsea because I'm going to be as far as they can so I'm a Latin Orient player and then they've actually showed the video oh no there he is look he's playing for Chelsea he's been tapped on by Chelsea so it looked like I'm playing both sides do you know what I mean it didn't look good Chelsea completely said obviously what's happened we can't you can't come and play with us anymore and then Orient was just like obviously I've done them wrong sort of thing and you've got a year bound for that I've got a band that ended up in the strand yeah because I've got a band because my mum took my dad to court over because he just kept publishing stuff about me non-stop and my mum ended up in court with him and then at the same time I got banned for a year that I couldn't play for any sort of not academy then it was school of excellence if you remember back then I said you can't play at any school of excellence for the rest of this year season and then a year ban at 14 a year ban at your feet when did your legs get insured for a million quid? that was at the back end no I'll say the back end I'm about 14 years old I'm saying it's the back end you know what I mean but that's how it was in my mind that was like yeah it was just another thing that happened so do you feel as if your world crashed at 14 all you ever wanted to do was play football yeah at 14 and then you were out cycling with your friends and then you've seen this bridge it was a suicide bridge it's called people jump from it every other week and you've been driving over the bridge in your bike and you've let your friends that's it yeah pedal on is that correct yeah that's right yeah because obviously all that sort of built up and everything that had happened and it had become a big sort of thing there I wasn't really talking to my dad and my dad I was training with my own I had my own coach he's named an old guy called Terry Terry Welch like I mean a diamond of a fella just do anything for you didn't ever want anything just wanted to help me and I used to train with him on our own like a little bit of a one to one sort of stuff and I hadn't spoke to my that fair game interview had aired and I hadn't seen my dad for a good few weeks and that wasn't like him do you know what I mean so I think he knew the right end was sort of on the wall for a few years it was a bit of a tussle my mum was saying like son just concentrate on your football being a bit wary about my dad dad broke up already yeah and my dad's saying she's saying stuff to you to sort of get you away from me I was caught in the middle of all this sort of family stuff you know what I mean like the mum and dad sort of thing and anyway I'm training with Terry and then he sort of turned up and just turned up and comes sunny so I walked over to him and I said he said he said I've got some more work for you I said what do you mean he said some more like TV, media work I said dad I said this has come out on the telly a few weeks ago I said you know that's enough I've had enough now I ain't been wanting to do it for a while but now this has come out I said I just want to carry on my football that's what I want to do and what he said to me he staves with me James honestly for the rest of my life because he goes to me if you don't do it he said you ain't got a dad no more and fucking I can tell you I can feel it in my throat now because I didn't expect that I expected him to say alright let's just leave it even if he just says sack the football leave the sort of media stuff I just didn't want him to be dad do you know what I mean but when he said that to me fucking hurt me do you know what I mean and I ended up going back training with Terry I told him what he said and then from that day I hadn't spoke to my dad until today and then I found myself a couple of weeks later like what you said actually over the park I only live like say 45 minutes from Central London even though it's just North London we went out on our bikes and we'd been into Central London and on the way back I see the bridge and as I was coming up to the bridge I knew what bridge it was and I just sort of let it's at the top of the at the top I just let my mates go down I just pulled my bike back and then I just walked back towards the bridge and I just thought I stopped and had a little look over it and for the first time in my life I started thinking to myself fuck it I'm gonna throw myself off it which was weird for me because I've just not had character do you know what I mean but I was really out of sort of character for me but that's how I felt and it weren't like sort of premeditated I just drove past it and I just had this feeling that I had to pull my bike over and go and look over and started to feel that way do you know what I mean yeah it's sad all you want to do is play football how much resentment the whole towards your dad do you feel as if that was at the start of your downfall he pretty much caused that as well because you clearly had the talent to be whatever you wanted to be but getting that extra added pressure with the media listen there's people now like I struggle with press in media and I'm a fucking fairy he's like for a kid at 10, 12, 14 it's tough they don't understand it it's all good at the start when you're at school and your kid's friends are talking about you bring any paper but then when you want to play football you're getting dragged up at five in the morning and do it like how much do you hold any resentment towards your dad for no not now I'm back then yeah I think in some ways I think I did I just felt like he was just trying to pull me in a different direction like he was trying to make me as a backup if you can become like a celebrity you can become a TV producer a TV a show host or something I'm thinking I don't give a shit about being a show host I don't watch Andy Peters and think I want to be at no I love Andy Peters his quality by the way but like you know I don't I love my thing I was watching the footballers I was watching the players like I love Gazzo I was watching him that was my thing and it was just trying to just push me in an area I didn't really want to go he's probably not understood that he's self it's obviously been all new to him like you say in the book they were struggling as well he was just trying to make as much money as he can the money's come in and he's probably not seeing the effects that it did have on you but so again after that after the bridge and banned for a year what was your life like then could you still play for an amateur team at school what was it? yeah so that's what we did actually my coach I was sort of by this time sort of my dad's sort of out of the picture from there on and my old coach Terry he finds me a little club in Essex now and it's just a normal sort of grass root side really we went and played there for a year and I was like say I want to say 15 so it was between 14 and 15 I did that for a year and he was just like just let everything calm down I could see exactly what he was thinking he was just like just because mentally I was sort of shot to bits like before I did on that bridge I spent weeks in bed where I just couldn't get out of bed and my mum would come to the door and say to me you alright son I said no I don't feel well but I couldn't explain to her and say like I feel sick or I've irked me leg it was just like mentally I was just looking at myself in the mirror and just think fucking I've had enough of this shit do you know what I mean it was like it was a big mental thing and Terry was just like let's just bring him away just put him in a little side team and then enjoy his football which we did and then I mean that last year going in towards 16 is when the year we decided like let's try and make a move now and try and get like some sort of signing in for a club like a bigger club so we can sort of settle back in and then hopefully become a football player which we did I ended up at Coins Park Rangers for a season and then I never got nothing at the end of that season and then I went to Crystal Palace for a couple of games but this is like an 18 month period a bit further on I went to play for Crystal Palace for a while and then it sort of reared back up again because I hadn't seen my dad or heard from me there for a couple of years say 18 months and I was at Palace and then I played and then a big thing come out in the news of the world a double page spread family football rips my family apart and at that time like the news of the world like you know like social media is a million platforms like so it was everywhere like big double page spread in the middle of the news of the world and people would just come out and go what's happening son what's happening son I was like fuck you know and Palace had called me in the day after and said we want you to play on a game on Wednesday against Tottenham I was like okay and I went onto the pitch at Tottenham and I think the pressure because of that had just come out a few days before the pressure I put on myself in this game that I had to sort of just do it was probably fucking not possible do you know what I mean I think every time I've got to get the ball I've got to take someone on I've got to do this I've got to do that and I just took a couple of touches and I was just like I felt like the ground honestly it felt like the ground was sucking me up I was just like what the fuck am I doing out here and I just went to the manager I said I said I've got to come off I'm injured there was nothing wrong with me but fucking mentally I was just completely shocked a bit went back into the changing room and I was 16 then and then that was that was that part and then I ended up at Stevenage I ended up at Stevenage it's just like a I mean they're a professional team now that was a conference team I ended up at Stevenage at 16 years old playing for Stevenage How was that when your career kind of is going down the way just spiraling where you had the world at your feet for like 10, 12 massive teams all those sponsorships all the media and then not wanting to play walking off the pitch to then at Stevenage like what you're thinking then was that when you just kind of fell out of love with football did you not have the same drive Yeah the drive had gone I had plenty of basically yeah plenty of maybe natural ability and this that and the other actually when I went to Stevenage the guy there Malcolm Allen who played for Wales Newcastle he said to me son you've got so much ability I've never seen someone with a Stevenage shirt have so much natural ability but I didn't have to drive the desire completely gone it was like a two year course at Stevenage so it's like a like an apprenticeship type thing but I was more looking forward to doing a couple of days in the college with the lads and having a laugh sort of thing I weren't really interested that people would be but there'd be kids there that had never been to a team as big as Stevenage and there was everything there was every session given everything and I'm like I was at the I was at the back end I was I was done sort of thing and I mean that was the advantages of the opportunities and I'm just like I couldn't give a shit what happens really How hard does that then but having a world at your feet then kind of just losing the passion for something you love so much and something you thought you'd be the greatest at it was tough because the truth is even when I went to Stevenage I made a conscious a conscious decision with my coach Terry my friend Daniel Buck and my mum Danny Buck was a good friend of mine before we went to Stevenage he was just like don't even think about being a football player it was just like just go there and try and enjoy it but the truth is I didn't know anything else what to do like all my friends were going to do other things there was a lot of them doing building or whatever else were coming out of school but I was I felt really lost because as I said I just didn't know what else what to do so I saw I see that out for a while until I was I'd say 17, 18 and then I became sort of doing and I just copied a lot of my son doing a bit of labouring and working on a sort of building site Did you get asked a lot of questions at that age that obviously when you're playing football at 15, 16 I imagine there would be a lot more pressure people expecting you to be doing fucking overhead kicks every chance you get beating five and six men that do you feel as if you had to perform at Stevenage as well as like Crystal Palace did you feel as if you always had pressure to be the best on the pitch I think I always had that pressure I mean I always had that pressure but the pressure within myself by the time I got to Stevenage wasn't the same before that I'd be like I had a bit of bite on me or a bit more back and I'd be like no I don't give a shit you want to put pressure on me I'm going to give it back to you by the time it got to Stevenage I'd sort of been burnt like you said I was burnt out I didn't really care if I played well or not sort of thing do you know what I mean where before I was using that energy when I was say 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 I would say 14 I would use that energy to show them and it actually worked in my favour because I'd be like I'd get more geared up for it I weren't worried about sort of I didn't worry about pressure about that much but I think when I when I came back on that bike after that journey I sort of made a decision that I had to sort of really sort myself out because I could have sort of easily spiralled and been in a position where I could end up probably getting maybe sectioned or even hurt myself or something could have happened I knew I had to sort of put that first and football became sort of second I think it's changed now for kids I think a lot more kids are wrapped up in cotton wool yes you've got the social media side of things but I think the big teams now are really really protective the kids mental health is a massive thing all around the world now like do you think if you were in this either they'd been better for you because that's you're kind of the first and if I don't like you're basically the one there the showman the kind of the circus to be guided you would be media trained and just try to be guided in a better way like wait a minute this is too much this is too much for anybody that's already in that industry and have a mind of 10 and 12 do you know what I mean like see when you ended up would you give up football at 18? 18, 19 yeah and then would you just pick up the tools and become a yeah I actually did a chippy course become a chippy I did that for a few years and then I ended up obviously doing the knowledge and everything else to be a black cab driver but yeah I picked up the tools and jumped on site people came on site going Sonny what are you doing here do you know what I mean expect me with football just that and never man at times I used to get pulled up in people's jobs and just that and never what kind of players did you play with back in the day that eventually kicked on and made that and actually young David Bentley Joe Cole I've heard about Joe Cole was a couple of years older than me because he was a young kid yeah actually it's quite funny actually because I was playing a game for Palace cheers James I was playing a game for Palace and as we were playing the game I'm doing bits on the way and you could feel when atmosphere changed someone had walked on to the side of the pitch you know when someone's come to the side of the pitch because everyone's looking sort of thing and after the game is finished someone called Son this was just when I was just sort of getting trying to get back into it again Alex Ferguson was watching the last 20 minutes of that game went yeah okay so I've got to see if it's him or not it walked off by then but I had a big long jacket on me and big like umbros then big long ones it walked off by then and he was watching another game and my game had finished so I thought I've got to go over there and see if that's him so I've gone on to the sideline I think it was Westam was playing Palace and he's and he's on the side of the pitch and he's watching the game and I make a few noises and doing a few things behind him so he turns around so I can see if it was Alex Ferguson or not he was watching the game or not turn around it was him um and I looked on the pitch I thought who's he watching and I watched for five ten minutes and you could just see this kid in the middle just bopping over people's heads putting it through their legs again rubbing their heads and mucking about and looking like it was at the park who's that that's Joe Cole and I think a couple of weeks later he put a bid in for him like ten million you know he was one of the players I looked at I thought he's good he's good and actually watching that game about two or three weeks later I found out they was playing at late in Orrin and I got on a bus on my own it took me about half hour from where I live I got a bus on my own about 14, 15 and when I watched it I thought I gotta watch this he was proper he was good he was really good what was it like that you eventually just decided enough was enough I don't know I think it had gone on for so long I was just just so happy to be doing something different do you know what I mean yeah it was just more of a relief actually weirdly enough when the Stevenage thing finished up in the changing room they found out if anyone was going to get any pro contracts I found myself consoling people going don't worry mate you'll be alright and I'm thinking really it should have been me going like but I'd gone so much already I'm going and a couple of kids got right ups a couple of lads I'd be alright I said you'll find this that any other because I'd been through so much shit already I found myself in a position sort of trying to help them out like do you know what I mean yeah what was it what happens then really after you give up football oh this is the this is the bit really where in my book and in my story I think to myself this is the bit well obviously that's not normal what's gone on already but then obviously normal life and everything else and my mum gets a new boyfriend who ends up coming to live with us he's in the book and then I just sort of what I try to do is I try to sort of hold myself out of a position where I was going to get myself into any trouble I start getting drunk or taking drugs and all that I try to keep myself out of that environment as much as I could so what I actually did when I stopped playing I went an agent called me up remember Sky Andrews he's a football agent no and rang me up I was like 19 I played football for a year he said Sonny could you come down to my office please I was like you know I don't know where he is he was like in Woodford not far around the corner lovely day I just brought a new car so I was like alright I just take a little ride down I've got nothing to lose as I've gone down there he's gone to me Sonny he's like Soul Campbell's agent Jane Pennant's agent I've gone in there and he's gone to me oh Sonny you alright I said yeah you alright do you think you do you think you can play in the championship do you think you can play Premier League I said well technically I said I think I'm good enough but I've been out of it for a long time and I said like I'm not really fit I haven't really done nothing he said can you go and see someone else he got another couple of people to work for him a guy called Cos and another girl lovely nice people and I've gone in there she's gone the guy's gone to me anybody what was that program there was a football program every week sort of a grange grange hill but it was football related what is it called not fantasy football that's the other program with Frank Skinner and all that there was another football program there was a team oh fucking it's going to annoy me now and it was like I was on TV every week and they wanted me to be an actor in it and play myself as a team that's going to proper bug me anyway I'll come back to me later and they wanted me to be in the program and playing myself so I went for an interview and we went and done a bit of casting and this that and the other and they said right if you keep going we're going to get you back in and you can be in it I'm still trying to think in the back of my nut what his team is what his program was you'll know as soon as I say it anyway I've gone and done that I put myself into acting school for like for about six weeks I thought if I could stay with this acting thing maybe they'll keep me away from the sort of pub and sort of going and doing everything else but I only lasted about three weeks I got to like the third week in on a Friday and all my mates are ringing me in the pub saying son what are you doing I said we're in the jude we're having a drink blah blah blah so I told the fella we were doing a bit of I mean they were doing a bit of acting and I said I've got to go and then I went in the pub and ended up sort of spiraling into the next sort of phase where I'm in the pub toilet and people are talking to each other they're having a drink offering you this, that and the other and then I thought fuck it and then I took a I took a sharp left yeah so sitting in the pub saying I could have been a contender I could have been a ball all that that's the hard thing because when I gave up football I never gave up always kind of played but the teams just kind of get worse and worse and worse like that and then but I used to watch the people who I played with and I used to hold resentment I used to hold grudges and think bastard he wasn't as good as me but his dedication was there his consistency and then you kind of and then you kind of don't want to watch football as much as well because then the family members would say oh think who's playing today or such and such and you think I won't fucking know because you know your life was kind of slipping and I never had anything else football was my thing as well not to the level that you were in the line but the talent was there to be something special but yeah that's hard as well but then you sit in the pubs and then people say oh you were a great footballer and you kind of feel free and it picks you up but so when you started on the drink and the drugs how long did that last? so I was I'd say about I want to say 20 something like that it wasn't a really long period but like I was never a drinker like so I'm not like go to work go in the pub and have a drink when I used to go out and have a drink I'd wait I'd want to get drunk like do you know what I mean I was a bit just a bit like too much you know instead of like what's that when they call it a drinker when you're just non-stop social? alcoholic? no not alcoholic not like a social drinker? no non-stop I mean I'd have to drink like a bottle of vodka like do you know what I mean as I said I wouldn't go every day but if I went to go out for a drink I would get smashed and I'd be in a complete state I might not touch it for ages I didn't need to do it sort of all the time but where I weren't a sort of social just have a couple and I'd be thinking if I'm going out to the pub I need to get drunk sort of thing you know what I mean so I found myself in some proper sort of scenarios and states you know what I mean I ended up in as a club in Essex called Faces which is a place that everyone used to go to and it's that you can imagine the type of place yeah so we'd end up in Faces and I'd only been a couple of weeks under me about I've got my mates with me that have been about 13, 14 they've been drinking and puffing God knows how long I'm like an amateur right and we're in Faces having a drink and they've said to us there's an illegal rave in some place called Trent Park big acreage do you want to go? so I've had enough drinking me I've gone yeah go on let's go let's go to this illegal rave we're all suited and booted up nice shoes we've pulled up in this forest and pulled up in the forest and like I think there's two loads of us I'll never forget this we've pulled up in this forest and the cab goes what the fuck are you like doing like do you know what I mean you're all dressed up you've just dropped us in the middle of a field anyway we've walked into the field all of a sudden you could start to hear do do do like you could hear a little bit of music so next thing you know we're all in the forest about 10 of us and it's getting louder and louder and we're thinking we're all celebrating in the middle of the forest you're going yeah we're getting there we're nearly there anyway boom boom it's going off we've turned the corner it's an illegal rave going on in the middle of this forest they've got like a netting over the top and like the netting's around the outside with like a like bedsheets on it like paint splattered on it a little dj area set up a bar set up and they're all like big piercings big bright colorful air and this that and the other out and we've got in the thick of it with them sort of thing and as I said I've only had a really had a drink at that point and they're sitting there and they're all having laughing gas things this that and the other yeah yeah yeah and pills I've never done anything in my life have I so I've said they were all eating pills this that and the other so I've eaten I took half of one nothing happened so I took the other half mate after about 20 minutes I'm laying on the floor in the field cuddling me mate all warm felt like I was in a bath okay and saying bloody hell this that and the other I was in the right state you know what I mean but it was ended up being looking back at it it's quite funny but like then like Jesus Christ ended up on the bus at like 6 o'clock in the morning broad daylight getting on the bus with all these punk rockers and all that and they're going yeah come back next week man we're going again I'm going yeah lovely that was the first time like the first time you're thinking you don't when you feel like affects after do you it's like it's nice did you start thinking then when you started technically drinking the part and seeing like how much did you think about your past I mean did that play a massive part on your mindset no I think I think that's what I think that's what it did I think that actually helped me block that sort of sort of time out for a few years you know I think that's what it did I didn't really think about football at all to be honest with you did anybody ever put like out a fucking missing scene like where's Sonny Pete like did anybody ever ask those questions or were you just kind of forgot about no yeah you know the funny thing actually when I when was talking about was going to do this that a lot of people started messaging like internet was not long going and everything else but I had a guy bring me up from the newspaper in Scotland Scottish son he said we were during an in Aberdeen in an in a university it was a big it was a thing going on that I'd gone to Scotland to hide right and stayed up in Scotland I don't know if there's someone called Sonny and some up in there and saying he was playing football whatever but a lot of people have messaged me saying they thought I was in Scotland I used your name on the missing list yeah yeah on the missing list and gone up to Scotland I was just like what the fuck like just mad didn't it things that people how it comes out yeah but it's fucking just mad life is mad from where that you were yeah to then how it ended as well that is sad but yeah everybody's got potential as well that everybody's can be the best version of herself and it's when you're thrust into a limelight like that then you how much do you how far do you think you could have went though if you just stuck at playing football I mean technically I always felt like I didn't really see anyone that I thought that was better than me so like that sort of side of it but like you said I really need just putting into like an academy or whatever it was then and just left to concentrate on my football really and just even become like more physical and fit and that sort of side of it I never really got to build all that sort of all them sort of aspects to my game that really got sort of completely ignored if I would have been sort of just put down and bit quiet and just left alone to sort of concentrate and someone would have got older me then I don't know really I said no question to ask but I'd like to think somewhere somewhere good How did the book come about who came forward for that was it yourself or did somebody come forward I did an interview on Talkspot about four years ago and Colin Murray had never done on like since anything I mean like that yeah and off the back of that it sort of went viral this interview and then I started getting loads quite a few I got like I'd never done a tweet before and then I looked at my Twitter and I got a thousand followers in a day of it so like it sort of sort of put the wheels in motion let's say for some people was going to me son you've got a right book like the interview sort of started that How was it writing a book that bring back a lot of memories Yeah it did yeah it was really good for me though to be fair it was good because I sort of broke it because it took quite a long time because I'm a black cab driver at times when I was in the rank I'd just I'd have a couple of black books and I'd just write down little things that I remember and by the end of it these black books were just banged out with nonstop and because of like social media now I would message people that I'd know from years ago and they'd say do you remember that do you remember this happened this that and the other like I remember something happened in Butlins when I was a kid and I was playing in the competition and all the kids come to like beat me up after the game and this that and the other and he said yeah then me my old coach Mark Coles he come and pulled them off me and this that and the other because I had quite a few things that happened to me obviously when I was younger I actually sitting I remember the first one it's about 30 kids outside they're going to they want to give you an idea I was like what the fear just threw me do you know what I mean I've got outside and I was gone thank God but then I went outside my house and I was waiting at the park and then they waved me in so just things like that but I wouldn't remember certain things you know what I mean but I was saying yeah that was that kid and this that and the other so you got to hold she was born and she sort of gave me a bit of bit of an awakening I think to myself right I got to sort myself out here because I was doing the building before that and a lot of time I was getting a bit of work here getting a bit of work there and I thought I need to be self-employed I need to do same for myself she was six months old so I'd have been like say I want to say about 21 23 I started doing the knowledge took me three years yeah so like mid 20s 26 did you ever play football and your 20s did you ever go back to the amateur or five or say nothing I had a lot of phone calls for the first few years can you come and play for like semi pro sides and I'd just completely swerve it then I left it for ages and I played like a couple of charity games now I think I played about two charity games and now you're doing coaching as well that's it now yeah how did you get into that and what made you get into that after giving football up did you feel as if you were going to give that to maybe gade the kids know that maybe you know I think that interview that I did with a on Talksball made quite a big difference to my life I think I let a lot of stuff out and it gave me a big release and I've got quite a really good feedback of people like sort of I thought you know what ain't that bad a lot of other people struggled this that and never and it took a little weight off my shoulders so I started to look at doing football he starts to like football and I think between the combination of them two things sort of naturally I've sort of ended up back in back in the game how you feeling about that do you feel better about that happy yeah more pressure no pressure yeah always a little bit but I always put a little bit of pressure on myself because I want to be the best at what I do naturally but like nothing compared to then do you know what I mean but if anything through my experiences I can sort of help other people now so yeah run in small groups like coaching mentoring kids that are one of the kids let's say I get a lot of messages off parents and like can you talk to me what do you think about me son should we do this should we do that I actually had one message me a few weeks ago he's been scouted to go to IACs from England and I'm like well let's talk to him about this this that and the other I'm like yeah so it's nice in a way because like obviously through my experience now when at one point did your mental health go at one point completely struggle at once yeah just thinking what was that with just thinking about the past just everything that came with it I think there's just the pressure building up between 14 and 16 was the worst years and he just kind of depressed at all yeah and then after that I sort of took I had a couple of years where I was drinking this down here and then after that I think just normal life maybe my daughter and everything else sort of kicked in and I sort of sort of been back to normal since then that's a good thing mate what about your son how old is your son he's seven and what's the potential like you've got you're going to take it easy with him yeah yeah I've got to take it easy yeah yeah what positions are you playing he plays in the middle or anywhere up front it's just for running full circle again that's the thing mate it's scary because I'm thinking like it's another world mate because all of a sudden you're thinking like you want him to be in a good environment where he can play but at the same time I just want him to enjoy himself do you know what I mean because I know if he does get into that sort of academy and he gets a bit too serious they get burnt out really quickly I mean as I said a lot of parents I spoke to and one of them said to me like he's getting a really big name I said do yourself a favour avoid that name as much as long as you can because you're seeing it now you see kids at 21-22 in the first team a bit of big sides in there what's he doing he ain't doing nothing compared to what he used to do he's 21 still do you know what I mean he's still learning he's fucking nuts like Rooney did pretty well to hold on for as long as he did I think he done really well yeah he was trying to see a lot of kids pull through I've seen a few kids that man knew as well come through the ranks played some great games 6 games 12 games and then they just kind of fizzle away as well that doesn't to keep to that standard as fucking it's near enough impossible as only a select few that can do it for Rooney to come through the ranks at 16 and score those goals and then be one of the greatest strikers of all time like England's was England's all time goal scorer man knew as I think but unbelievable to kick on that extra pressure doesn't do anybody any fucking good though that's the only thing especially in the media here hanging out to fucking dry like don't fuck around me ruthless man like when did you start building the bridges again with your dad I haven't still now I haven't spoken to my dad since that conversation I told you about fucking hell off a couple of years later no I haven't spoken to him since then did that play a massive part on you then in which way and just struggling the the suppressing there yeah of course cause there's a lot of things I mean there's some things there that my dad you'd probably say hasn't done well but there was a lot of things about him that he put into me that was really good do you know what I mean like that that sort of mental strength that I had luckily I've got back now he put that into me a lot of the stuff do you know what I mean so that was tough I'm done with him at some point when you've got people trying to give you an idea and everything else in your team with all the stress and everything else I could have probably definitely done with him but I suppose at the same time it's built me into the person I'm now where I can sort of do it I just do everything on my own do you know what I mean cause I'm not weak and I've already shown train I mean I never know I never know in life but there's a lot gone on now so it's quite a tough one obviously I've got I mean even my mum passed away a couple of months ago no worries you never know what goes on there yeah life is just never know what they it's just the idea that's fucking hell mate one day there's hurricanes the next there's a bit of sunshine mate but it's just fucking madness but again like for anybody that's watching any kids that's got the fucking world at their feet and what advice would you give them my advice would be to think long term don't be thinking like cause there's a lot of you see a lot of these guys and young kids now they're like sort of social media kids and getting little boot deals and this that and you have it's easy for someone to come up to you I'll give you some boots and get this down you get a couple of likes and this that and you have it's a bit of a my story a lot of the guys I talk to is like sort of a bit of a blueprint of what not to do now you know what I mean that wasn't nothing like the social media wasn't non-existent then but obviously now you see social media there's thousands of little sunny pike snare and you know what I mean got a lot of followers this that and you have just to keep it long term just concentrate and what's most important to you if that's your football put the football first before everything and then and the rest of it comes you know what I mean you gotta take it you gotta take it slow like anything in life everything takes so anything worth doing takes ages just keep that first there's just so many stories like this like I had Billy Kenyon the Everton you came through the ranks man in a match against Liverpool next big thing turned alcoholic 19 got injured do you know what I mean never really clawed it back like it's fucking hard and it's painful to see as well the talent that's lost for yeah like booze and fucking drugs and all the madness and there's a lot of these people not even touched that when they've had their career slight injuries slight blitz and they just kind of get a taste of it and realize it don't take long to sort of swerve into another sort of area like you say your environment and you are what the people was around you and that's what happened to me I was sort of sort of slipped into that sort of world and then like even bits and pieces with my stepdad he was up to no good and then if you look in the book he was up to up to really no good and I sort of even started to think about going down sort of flirting with the lines of going down them sort of roots at one point and you think to yourself what the fuck for do you know what I mean what's the plans for the future brother we've got big plans yeah 2022 we're having a go now obviously the books not long come out so hopefully we want to try and get something maybe like I'd like to do like a documentary or something like that or even people have approached me the possibility of a film and then in my football academy try and get some more coaches I've actually built my own five aside football pitch which is like not a lot of one to one coaches have done that I've actually built my own 4G pitch so I train now I've got a little window facility as well get some other coaches to work for me I'm actually thinking about maybe even trying to do like an app where I can send sessions off to players but also like a mindset like that little check-in so they can do things every every even if it's once a week or every other day just sort of keep a mentally strong and help them in that way as well so I haven't seen anything like that I've seen coaching apps with like you can do like practice some of my skills and touches but I ain't seen nothing with the two of them together like where you can talk about talking about building strong characters pretty much I mean I'll give you a list in the morning or your son gets a list in the morning give me five things that a winner does and give me five things that someone just little things just to sort of help the other ones and yeah that's that's what I'd like to do something like that and that's it yeah obviously family I saw on my back like kids wife and kids all my sisters and everything else just making sure I do as much as that that's a big job on the 22 list as well do some stuff with him Is there any kid you watch now who had maybe broke through the first thing you think that he's going to be a star I'm trying to think who's there at I mean talent is playing professional there's a lot of so much talent now I'm trying to think there's nothing that comes to my mind at the at the minute but I've got a few kids that I know that are younger that not first team that I think could be a couple of good little players you just know don't you when you see they've got something special they've got the talent but they've got the dedication and the mindset to then kick on and be and blossom exactly and all the environment around them is all charged in the right direction to sort of move them into life normal that could just change what you're doing do you know what I mean exactly well brother for coming on today and telling you so that's where I've enjoyed that would you like to finish up on anything before we go no I'm good I'm good thank you just say hello to my wife kids normal stuff yeah good stuff listen I'm going to show you the best for the future mate God bless you mate take care mate


Throughout history, mankind has sought to answer what happens after death. After all, the end of life is part of the human condition. In an effort to alleviate our fears of demise, many theologians, religious scholars and scientists have sought to discover proof of the soul, and to a greater extent, where it goes post-death. One such scientist would set out to find if the very centre of our being has a physical weight. Although an impossible task you might think, a theory was conceived that concluded that a soul weighs around 21 grams. Derided as a case of selective reporting, the theory would see widespread rejection within the scientific community. Despite this, many see the results as a hopeful glimmer of life after death. In order to prove this, the study would go down a dark path. Welcome to the dark side of science. It is 1907, and a new theory of proof of the soul is leaked in the New York Times. The headline exclaims, the soul has a weight. Decision from Haverhill, Massachusetts, Duncan McDougall thinks. But our story starts all the way back in Glasgow in 1866, with the birth of Duncan McDougall. He emigrated to Haverhill, Massachusetts in the United States at around the age of 20. Shortly after emigrating, he attends the Boston University School of Medicine, receiving his medical degree. He would return to Haverhill where he would meet Mary and have a son in the mid 1890s. Like many people of this era, McDougall was fascinated with death and the human condition. As such, he devised a way to prove the existence of the soul. He surmised that if we have a soul, that it must hold a physical space and therefore can be weighed. Once death is complete, then in theory, as consciousness is extinguished, when the soul leaves the body, then the weight of the deceased will change. In his 1907 hypothesis, published in the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, he said, Since therefore, it is necessary to the continuance of conscious life and personal identity after death, that they must have a basis that which is space occupying or substance. The question arises, has this substance weight? To prove the theory, McDougall needed access to people near the point of death. But not only that, but also incapable of being able to move, as this would make conducting the weighing easier and more accurate, as said by McDougall himself. It seemed to me the best to select a patient dying with a disease that produces great exhaustion, the death occurring with little or no muscular movement. Because in such a case, the beam could be kept more perfectly at balance, and any loss occurring, riddily noted. Needless to say, this task is easier said than done. As very few people in their last moments of life would be willing to take part in a study, but a disease that killed roughly 25% of the adult population would create a ready supply of bedridden subjects, and this was named consumption, or better known today as TB. The disease takes a relatively easily predictable progression, allowing sufferers time to make arrangements for their affairs post death. This prediction of the time of death was assisted with the discovery of the X-ray in 1895 by Wilhelm Röntgen. As the disease was spreadable by kissing, coughing, breathing or sneezing, many sufferers were sent to homes for treatment and to stop the spread. One of these was Dr. Cullis's Consumptives Home. Between the 1860s and 1890s, the institution based in Roxbury, Massachusetts, had taken care of over 2,000 critically ill patients. Dr. Cullis believed in cure by faith, in which prayer would help heal the sick. Although not the most scientific method, the home offered comfort and care for its patients. MacDougall had been refused by many homes for his morbid study into the point of death, but Cullis's home offered an opportunity for MacDougall. The faith-based institution who agreed to allow the scientific experiment thought that proving that the cell was real could have both spiritual and medical importance. In total, six dying people would volunteer for the experiments. The process set out for the experiment involved taking the patient as their last moments approached, and placing them into a cot suspended from a Fairbank scale, sensitive to two-tenths of an ounce. Due to the progression of the disease, the patients were so ill they did not move, allowing the measurements to be accurate. MacDougall and two physicians carefully observed the patient, noting the weight on the scale. As the moment arrived, they recorded the exact time of death and looked for any change or weight at that moment. The experiments would start on the 10th of April 1901, when the first volunteer was wheeled into a room which housed the cotton scales. The man continued to breathe for three hours and 40 minutes before death. Suddenly, coincident with death, the beam end dropped with an audible stroke hitting against the lower limiting bar, and remaining there with no rebound. The loss was ascertained to be three-fourths of an ounce, or roughly 21 grams. The second subject, a man also suffering from TB, was observed for four hours and 15 minutes before his death, at which time the weight dropped half an ounce. Four more patients would be observed by MacDougall. Patients three and five were observed losing a small amount of weight, but four was discounted due to scale failure and six was disallowed due to the patient dying while entering the cot. In MacDougall's thinking, animals didn't have souls, so as a control of sorts, he conducted the study on 15 dogs. He would later state, surrounded by every precaution to obtain accuracy, and the results were uniformly negative, no loss of weight at death. Although not explicitly stated, it is likely that the dogs were poisoned in order to measure the moment of death. The tests on the dogs were vitiated by the use of two drugs, administered to secure the necessary quiet and freedom from struggle, so necessary to keep the beam at balance. Six years later in 1907, before his results were published in the Journal of American Society for Psychical Research, The New York Times released the story. The study, upon publication, received strong criticisms. One of the loudest was from physician August P. Clark. Clark explained that the difference in weight loss between humans and dogs was primarily due to one thing, sweat. You see, as the body dies, the cooling effect of breathing no longer takes place, leading to a momentary increase in body temperature, causing a quick burst of sweat, which would evaporate, and this could easily account for the missing 21g. The big difference with dogs is that they don't have sweat glands, so wouldn't lose the weight in this manner. The criticism from the wider scientific community wouldn't stop there, as it was pointed out that only one case after the four recordings of weight resulted in 21g, which would suggest a case of selective reporting. From a modern perspective, the methods used in 1901 to ascertain the exact moment of death are not as accurate as you would have liked. Wiringly for the results, this is even semi-admitted by McDougal himself for the second patient. For the last 15 minutes, he had ceased to breathe, but his facial muscles still moved, convulsively, and then coinciding with the last movement of facial muscles, the beam dropped. Another criticism is the sample size, which, by most scientific standards, is way too small to yield any discernable result of a total of 6, with only 4 results being allowed. Many other variables were not controlled, for example, temperature of the room, cause of death, and even it's being limited to just one institution. The imprecise nature of the study meant the results were far from reliable. But the reason that the experiment is known today, and not just a bizarre footnote of strange history of science, is its cultural impact. Needless to say, fundamentalist religious groups of the day embrace the findings, and even though Dr. Duncan McDougal would pass away in 1920, the weight of 21g permeated itself into modern day culture. More modern attempts of a recreation of the study by Lewis E. Hollander Jr. on various animals actually yielded an unaccounted-for weight gain. So I'm going to rate the 21g experiment to 5 on my ethics scale, and that's mainly for the needless slaughter of the dogs. How would you rate this experiment? Let me know in the comments below. This is the Plain Difficult Production. All videos on the channel are creative commons attribution share alike licensed. The Plain Difficult videos are produced by me, John, in a currently sunny southeastern corner of London, UK.