So being six o'clock on Mondays at term of the 17th 2018 we'll call it order the musky city council meeting We will also be joined this evening by the musky school board who will give an opportunity to call it order When we come to that item in a few moments But first off we'll ask that everybody in our call order. Please stand and join us for pleasure visits led by deputy mayor Nicole Mace One nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all Okay, a couple quick items first up. We have a gender review This is an opportunity for council to add move or discuss any agenda ordering items I think we stack things up so we could get through things with the Expected order of attendance of guests, etc. Any questions or concerns? Good so seeing in here, none will move forward with the agenda as posted Next up is public comment This is an opportunity for members of the public to address the council about any items that are not on tonight's agenda As a reminder, you can find tonight's agenda on the back podium and we also have a sign-in sheet there We appreciate members of the public also taking an opportunity to sign in in case you speak We need to make sure we spell your names correctly in the minutes There's an opportunity for members of the public to address council on any items that are not on tonight's agenda All right, so seeing and hearing none We'll move forward with the rest of the city council agenda and first up tonight We have the joint meeting with the school board trustees and tonight We'll be discussing the memorandum of understanding between the city and of Winooski and the Winooski Incorporated School District for 2018 and 19 we're very pleased to welcome our distinguished guests this evening Really appreciate you guys taking the time to come in and we'll let you do your official call to order So you can be a functioning body Or document the time of 603 Our joint meeting this evening So this is something that gosh, I don't know how many years we've had them or you're running now, but You know, I think it gets lost sometimes certainly by the emails I get I know I know it does by members of the public But Winooski has Totally unique system where we have a separately incorporated by charter municipality and city in the school which has its own separate charter and By way of our two bodies having those separate and distinct Creations I think it it can lend itself for entities like us to work in silos and I think what we've done in the past is take Really tremendous steps towards seeing a real cohesive working together for the betterment of the community And I think this mo you really represents one of the most Us formalizing A lot of the relationship that we've developed between department heads between staff For knowledge to Sean and the superintendent school and Jesse Baker our city manager and numerous other department and staff members That we know work back and forth Because we recognize I think as a city is and I think this The spirit of this mo you Supports that that there's a continuum of service and a continuum of care for community members that doesn't start and stop Where our sidewalks end and their property begins and doesn't start and stop where the doorways of the schools Are where it's okay kids go forth and do what you do, right? It's a holistic view of how we Care for provide opportunities and create an environment our city That's a a great place to live in a place where people can raise families and be successful So we couldn't be more proud to work with you Really appreciate all the efforts that you've gone through over the Past several years since since I've been involved You know not not just to show up for this meeting once a year But to be engaged in the city planning processes for tim bite us to be Engaged in your planning processes and then really having meaningful exchanges About how we provide coordinated service and the ways that we're allowed to In ways that best serve the community So we couldn't be happy to welcome you here today We have a member of understanding here and I think I'll turn back towards our two key There was another side of the table and ask if there's any comments or items is what I address So I'll start but you can jump in so what you have before you is a revised memorandum of understanding Built upon last year's base very similar to last year if you remember last year We made a few changes around mutually participating in some planning processes And about allowing some flexibility as the city maintains The powing service for the school so we've retained those in here And also of course talks about our SRO Our relationship at our school resource officer at our police department Writing care for kids out of school time for our new services department And other shared priorities, but really there's no significant difference from last year to this year We think it's working well and would like to continue These shared expectations I think the the only thing I'd say the biggest change year year is that our new logo is on the Memorandum and we've given the counselors a swag bag there with a shirt and a water bottle and some stickers and pens and we hope that You will wear and use those out and about in the city so that we can Continue Getting that logo out there as part of our overall branding and communications plan In kind of shifting the narrative of the school district For folks at home. I'm curious as to what that looks like Very nice very well done Thank you very much. I appreciate the gesture too Okay I think I'd like to just start with uh, just two items actually out of this MOU that I've seen grow over the years And a couple of them one of them in particular Paceback dividends. I don't think we realize and that is the SRO I don't think there's really a whole lot of doubt that It can prove it's worth having an officer in the school But I look at it as The the protection hopefully we never need and they never need to use any kind of force in the school at all for any reason But what I'm seeing now is we've got at least three if not four officers on the on the Force that have spent time doing the SRO role And I know that pays huge dividends out in the community when they do Monitor around town in the summertime when they're not in the school I think that makes a huge difference one quick story about ron jackson after his Tears he couldn't stop it stop signs without being accosted by kids To the point where you had to tell him to stay there I'll come see you because they were coming across the road to see him So, you know that it just that relationship is what we're trying to build The the side benefit of having him there for protection if we need it We hope we never need it the other one was The After-school programs were by the city With the one comment. I'll leave it at that from one of the students. I can't get away from it Goes to the after-school program. Here's the same words. He's hearing in school but it's the same Discipline and the same reactions that the kids it became almost seamless of who was there We move the the after-school programs to the school from the o'brien centers that the kids didn't have to travel and move So essentially they got another 20 minutes to a half hour Of care, but it the face has changed, but the attitudes stayed the same So I think those two things Along with just talking about the you know day-to-day things that we talked about where do we interact and how do we do things better? Have made this a worthwhile again Not paying the tax dollar twice So let's make a big difference If I could add to that briefly I'm not sure the council is fully aware of this and apologies to the superintendent for stealing a staff person But one of the very side benefits of the SRO. I really agree with you Like that there are huge benefits on both sides are we're starting to look at it as really a recruitment tool You know, how do we talk with young people about the profession of public safety and Start thinking about giving those opportunities and we were able to recruit somebody from the school. Unfortunately, it was a staff person But a behavioral interventionist who spent six years working with our kids and families Who then decided to take his career into public safety and it's now At the part-time academy becoming a winewski police officer and the benefit of that young police officer starting knowing A lot of our families already. I think is a huge advantage to our community. Sorry I'm thinking about who we need to start whispering in our area so to be like it's really good over here I I appreciate Sean's participation on the housing commission. I think that's a really important perspective to continue to bring Yeah, the Insights and information and perspectives that are brought through working so closely with Families that live in this community to a lot of our planning processes is really really important. So thank you for supporting that work on the city side And promise communities A lot of time and come in That joint I again that that collaboration It benefits the community tremendously and it doesn't happen without us breaking down those silos that could have naturally Stopped us and or been an impediment to our cooperative approach to building the best community that we can provide and you know at the At the risk of you know sounding too Most of us, you know, I think people look at winewski right now as a community that's heading in a really exciting direction And we know that that's not just the city And it's not just restaurants The innovation taking place of the school that I have reflected to me on a regular basis Has just become a cornerstone benchmark of conversation to any time I leave The city and have conversations with other leaders across the state that There's a real appreciation for the approach that's being Utilized at the school and that's a huge testament to you guys's willingness to innovate and we'll try to hold up our Into that bargain and doing the same thing when appropriate but mostly try to provide that canvas for the community to paint on so Thank you for all you do and I guess I would add that I I know through my work the partnership for change that winewski school district is a real gem And I think they're really part of the process of changing the narrative for our community. So thank you for your great work Some of our hardest work is commiting communicating that internal We see a lot of a lot of comments from around the state And just making sure that the folks in in winewski understand what it is that's going on Well, you guys understand that the challenge of getting out into the community and getting an overword out is one of the It is our it is our role Continue to work at that so now I think We usually do read the content aloud I want to open up to any comments from the community prior to doing so before we read through the memorandum of understanding Standing between the city of winewski and winewski incorporated school district Any comments questions concerns reflections from the public tonight? So seeing and hearing none if it sounds agreeable, maybe We'll do the preamble and the city agrees to and then you guys want to read the district district agrees to and the The collaborative item to close this out works great Okay, so we have tonight before some memorandum of understanding between the city of winewski and winewski incorporated school district Dated the 17th of september 2018 this memorandum of understanding is made this day between the winewski incorporated school district Here in after called district in the city of winewski here in after called city This mo your memorandum of understanding is intended to clearly state the shared goals of both the city and the district And to identify areas of collaboration that will allow both parties to best serve the needs of all winewski residents By moving towards a model of collaborative Excuse me collective impact which includes a common agenda shared measurement system Mutually reinforcing activities and continuous communication the city and district will strive to provide the highest level of service In the most economical manner as we seek to achieve the district districts ends policy Which states all students will graduate from the winewski school district College and career ready at a cost supported by the majority of the winewski community Winewski school district students will lead healthy productive and successful lives and engage in their local and global community To this end the city agrees to provide end Or support a diverse offering of out-of-school time programs with supplemental and or with supplement and enhance the usability To lead healthy productive and successful lives and engage in their local and global community This will include but not be limited to this thrive summer program Thrive after-school program summer and school year meals program O'Brien center Tutoring program summer teen employment program or step and the coordination of various volunteer service learning opportunities Number two Commit to where possible employ youth development and behavior management strategies and city run programs that align or support Those strategies being employed by the district number three Provide students with community-based learning opportunities through very through various Functions of city government where possible number four Use the district's newly adopted graduate expectations as an outcome measurement tool And as part of programming Programmatic a goal setting when appropriate Number five foster a range of housing options and ensure safe well built well maintained and affordable housing throughout the city Number six provide a variety of transportation options through complete streets that take into account the needs of motorists bicycles public transportation users and pedestrians all ages and ability And number seven the city agrees to provide snow plowing insulting services to the school The service will be managed or provided by the city's department of public works Operational procedures shall be decided by the superintendent of schools or designee as negotiated the public works director Or their designee those individuals should create a written agreement and consultation with the superintendent of school and city managers Each fall The district reserves the right to put out to bid at snow plowing salting and sanding services on the open market In the case of the district decides to contact outside services The city shall have no responsibility to lay the same district agrees to inform the city each Year in the month of november if an intense exercise is the option of the following year if the district exceeds or elects to exercise this option And so no as far as the city in the month of november this city will have no obligation to provide such services In the fiscal year. I feel like I just read the small print and uh Yep, the district agrees to one annually the district will pay to the city one half of one percent of statewide property taxes It collects as provided in section 8b of the district charter less any amount the state has directed the city To retain for collect tax collection purposes as set forth on the tax statements provided to the parties by the department of education To the district agrees to name the city as a subsidiary purchaser when it bulk purchases For when it bids bulk purchased items and commonly used services Such items will include but not be limited to office products paper supplies cleaning materials copy paper rubbish removal and similar commonly used by both Entities the city shall order such goods and services directly from the vendor be solely responsible for the payment of the same Collectively the city and district agree to one at the district's request The city shall provide a school resource officer through the wanowski police department The district agrees to reimburse the city for all expenses related to the provision of the sRO Including salary benefits and any related cost up to 55 000 as approved by the voters Each year the city will estimate for the district in the month of november the cost of the sRO for the ensuing school year The computation will be determined as follows The number of duty days requested by the district divided by 260 260 days of a full-time officer times the cost of that officer The district and the city agree that the cost of benefits for a full-time officer will be included in the calculated cost of the sRO Should the city Not place a full-time officer at the school as cool school shall pay For the actual cost of the part-time officer will add to school The sRO functions as a member of the wanowski police department and in a such will follow the general order issued by the chief of police After consultation with the superintendent of schools and in compliance with the board policies that do not counterman the role of a police officer To allow the other to use its facilities for the benefit of wanowski residents Especially families and children without charge and accept that when substantial added costs And soon do either to the city or the district for the use of the same by the other party a reasonable charge may be assessed Three the district will participate in city staff and manage citywide planning efforts to ensure that all voices are heard And the best future for the city of wanowski is discussed This shall include the citywide master planning process for In order to foster a range of housing options and ensure safe well built well maintained and affordable housing through the city The district agrees to participate in the city chartered and staffed housing commission In order to provide the best five in order to provide best services to the residents families and businesses of wanowski and maintain the city's affordability The city and district agreed to participate in professional development opportunities Around municipal financing tools and to continually communicate and cooperate on long term capital planning in terms of this agreement expires september 30th 2019 Well written well done Any questions concerns or comments from the council? Any questions concerns comments from the public? Any concerns or comments from the school board? So seeing and hearing none Again with great gratitude for you for coming here tonight. We appreciate it. We appreciate all your work And look forward to continue to work with all of you and making when you see the best we can Thanks for everything And with that I would entertain a motion from city council in regards to the school district board of trustees And wanoski city council member and understanding between the city of wanoski and the wanoski incorporated school district Second motion by eric second by halney for the discussion So you can hear none of those in favor to say aye. Aye and those opposed motion carries We ask the school board. I would accept the motion to accept the mo us for the discussion All those in favor Aye Opposed All right motion carries Great It's your name. That's great Now um, I think the school board is going to continue to conduct business more things to do tonight And being at a spot designated That's great Thank you all very much Thank you Obviously as things move along we're always going so Anything just changes or questions? Thank you for coming I kind of like your setting being surrounded by all the books I like that Next time we'll have ours or join me in the public works garage Where our cool stuff is Thank you Okay So on this evening's agenda, we also have a liquor control board meeting. So we're actually going to Do a Brief recess on the city council meeting and we will reconvene that meeting following the liquor control board meeting Which is set for 6 15 So we'll return to the regular agenda in a few moments First up tonight, we do have a liquor control board meeting and uh, I would Being Monday, uh, September the 17th 2018. I'll call order the liquor control board meeting and ask everybody please join us For the Pledge of Allegiance led by deputy mayor The home base To the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands One nation under god and invisible with the military and justice for all We have one item on tonight's liquor control board meeting And that's the approval of first class liquor license restaurant license and entertainment permit for four quarters brewing I'll see at 150 west canal street suite one So brian is here tonight, um brian recently went through the drb process to get uh approval or conditional use approval for some Additional space usage and is in is going through the processes of complying with those requirements So we recommend the approval of this liquor license great Any concerns to express from staff in terms of normal operations or otherwise Anything cool exciting and new coming you want to share with the public? And if that's the way you want to keep it, that's okay. That's all right We gauge the age of your business by the fact of the first time that you came in here. I think they were both Yates yay large so they've been they've been with it since the beginning. It's good. They understand that the municipal permitting process It's exciting stop Oh brian, I exciting to have you in town Appreciate all that your business does to create that vibrancy and work and excited to see you continue to grow and thrive here So congratulations Any questions or concerns from uh look control board? Any questions concerns or comments from the public? So seeing and hearing none I entertain a motion for approval of first classical license restaurant license and entertainment permit For the four quarters brewing. I'll see you look at 150 west street suite one so moved second Motion by christine second by Nicole any further discussion So you can hear none of those would favorably say hi. Hi those opposed motion carries Permits are granted Take care. Thank you Okay We will now reconvene tonight's city council meeting Oh, I'm sorry, my bad, uh that concludes tonight's liquor control board meeting. I entertain a motion to adjourn Second motion by eric second by howling for the discussion Seeing hearing no, those in favor, please say hi. Hi, and those opposed motion carries Now we will reconvene tonight's city council meeting. We'll open up Picking up with the consent agenda. We have three items on the consent agenda that we have the city council with patrol minutes from September 14th 2018 the payroll warrants from the 26th of august and 8th of september warrants ending in september the 14th and subsequent payout for july We also have the reaffirm assignment reserves to operating expenses As described in the consent package and discussed in the previous meeting Any questions that could turn from council in regards to the consent agenda Any questions or concerns from the public Seeing and hearing none to entertain a motion for the consent agenda as presented Motion by christine second by eric any further discussion Seeing hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. All right. All right, and those opposed Motion carries city update Great. Thank you um, so a couple of just Couple of updates to you tonight one angel is here tonight for her first official meeting taking our minutes. Thank you for being here And I also want to introduce olivia miller who is here tonight She's our new americorps member and you'll meet her more in depth at a future meeting But just wanted to call her out in the crowd. We're happy to have her on board Welcome a few other updates. So we've been talking about our fall housing series so that There'll be three different discussions to our regular housing commission meetings as they go through the process to move those ordinances forward And then a special conversation on Tuesday october 9th from 6th date here in the city council chambers and confirmed panelists that evening include Mike monti Earhart brian pie and eric hoekstra So it's a good panel. They're all excited to be here and we hope you know broadly invite the public to come out and learn about Housing policies and tools and things and tools the council and planning commission and housing commission are considering to meet during the city's goals City clerk's office has received the State general election ballots for november. So those will go out to those who have requested absentee ballots on friday And if people are interested in receiving absentee ballots Give us a call and we will send them out and of course later in the meeting if we move forward with a local ballot We'll track everyone who requests ballots and send them out In partnership later on As you have heard me talk about before one of the things we've done in the last year is stand up a safety committee In the city. It's a something traditionally Municipalities do in conjunction with their insurance provider to talk about Employees safety and really hear from employees The tools and training and resources they need to feel safe at work So that committee has been working really hard in the last probably nine months And is launching two Trainings this fall one was for public work staff will be doing confined spaces training So when they're down in holes fixing water leaks usually in really unsavory conditions training around how to stay safe in those environments And then excitingly for everybody on october 24th. We will have a driving simulator here that will allow us to allow the employees to simulate driving big plow trucks driving fire trucks doing police pursuits and and not only Fine tune their own abilities but allow their peers to understand what they're doing on the street Which is very exciting and supported by the legal cities and towns, which is great Um, we have been in the last couple of city updates. We've been giving you updates on new businesses coming to town So wanted to welcome friends in a poly restaurant at two 12 main street The previous location of home and they are open and from all reports very good. So visit with them Um staff is continuing our fy 20 budget process today. We met as a leadership team and reviewed staff allocations So as you've seen through the budget process, we have many staff who are allocated to different funds So reviewed that comprehensively to see if it reflected What the actual work of the job is and that will be baked into our proposed budget to you all this fall And then finally we had a regional a chitenden county public safety authority board meeting this morning We are moving forward with hiring select and consultant to come in and work through the last implementation stages and then stand up The organization with an executive director staff who consultant for a couple of years We anticipate executing that contract beginning of november and coming back with a request for fy 19 funding from reserve funds Serve balance to support that work as well as an fy 20 ask As you might remember the to get this off the ground will be using the amount We're currently allocating to dispatch to operate it but there is some initial capital investment needs requested So you will see that on a future council agenda as well And those are my updates Can we address the door please? uh, so That can we have that door open? We can with the school trustees meeting back there. Okay. You know what we've got this one Okay Understood. Sorry Have it Um, okay. Next up is council reports Um, I think we started on here last time start this way. I don't have anything to report this time Um, I met with uh, jesse and juley last week. I think it was on the non-union wage plan that they're pulling together in final stages four We're gonna hear about that later this month or actually early next month at this point and some other updates around the retirement fund transition and Contract with the police so just part of the Regular update search time together and then liaison role there Thank you Uh, my items are all actually on the agenda. So I think I'll I'll talk about treasure and UNB and all that good stuff later So the public safety commission met I believe it was last week Um, as I reported prior they have lost the chair as well as some other commission members So It's been challenging for the group to get together quarrel in the meantime And then there's also been this ongoing discussion and difficulty Which I think we've heard from commission members and have also discussed amongst ourselves in regards to the charge And if the charge of that commission being aligned and other commissions being aligned to operational aspects Of the city's work presents difficulties and kind of what that means for this larger policy vision and goal setting That we need our commissions to be doing So there was a conversation which of course there, you know, there are parts of that conversation that are challenging And moving forward ultimately the decision of the commission was to hold off on recruitment for the time being Wow as we go down the road With the process that we discussed at our I forget exactly what it was called, but our planning retreat To kind of you know, if there is going to be alignment or a change in our commissions It doesn't make sense to recruit new people to commissions that might be an entirely different shape In a shorter and you know sometime in the near future I do believe that they decided they're still going to plan to meet I think in early december to Provide some input on the budget process like our other commissions do So I think they're going to work to be able to still maintain a quorum and meet at that time But they also expressed and I really want to pass on they want to be really engaged in the discussions that we have and that our other commissions have In looking at our commission structure and if if there are changes they need to be made and if so what those changes are And then I have also I've been able to connect and talk with some folks the mayor and Town clerk for a city to coma park in mariland about non-citizen voting Which is a little bit later tonight. So I guess we can talk about that then but I was really enlightening in a great conversation Thank you. That's what I got So I attended the public works commission meeting earlier this week Council off was not able to make it. She was a conference So I was there in her stead There was conversation about the membership of the commission They're down two members one member just moved out of the Area and another has been unable to attend And I think currently all of the commissioners have Expired Appointments, so there's probably a need for revitalizing that and getting everybody back on board officially There was conversation about the Main Street and full projects and they're pretty excited that they're underway now with the design phase of that Conversations and meetings have taken place with some of the utilities about cost-sharing Going very well with green mountain power There was conversation about some capital projects Including the bridge work that's underway And the east island traffic rerouting that's currently underway with that construction Um, there was also conversation about how the commission might better communicate it to work to the community And sounds like they're going to have commissioners rotate Coming up with a one or two paragraph Update on their work. So folks will understand the great work that they're doing And lastly there is a underway Um, they an east island transportation scoping study And that will involve a united planning work plan UPDW Working with cc rpc and vchb as consultants So I had my fill with the alphabet soup How they meet and communicate And the commissioners are considering being involved with the technical advisory committee So that will allow them to have input and their goal is to have a plan for future improvements So that was Just the meeting. Thank you Sure And just a quick note in regards to one of those items too We did set a meeting to follow up on the communications concepts and ideas and there were some ideas Shared back and forth between Council and staff I also just want to note that next monday There's a housing commission meeting of folks who are interested in engaging on that that'll be six o'clock here at city hall And also want to acknowledge eric's work with planning commission as they move forward on the housing chapter and some other items This month and as as our promise we're going to bring a kind of more comprehensive update on the master plan progress And in the near future I'll work with staff on that Can I just say You set sits on the housing commission. I'm an additional layer of Participation But I have a work conflict next monday. So if there's other counselors that have an interest in participating Welcome your You're doing so unfortunately Just one please individually reach out to me. Yes, not in the right, please. Thank you Okay Other items for council reports So sitting and hearing none We'll move on to tonight's regular items First up is approval for an event on hickok street for a block party It's spreading Hey, so Staff has received an event permit application for a hickok street block party This will be sponsored sponsored by the wanooski police department. It's something they've done before on hickok street The event includes a street closure on hickok street from 12 p.m. To 4 p.m. On saturday, september 29th Community is invited to join us there for a cookout with the police department Manning the grill. So staff recommends approval of this community event You have to wear An apparatus for your beard, you know The health office comes cheap Just give me a heart doll. I'm sorry Um Exciting that you guys just appointed us. Thanks for your work in this outreach community is the community um policing model at work right and being out and engaging in this way So incredibly appreciative of all your work and time to make something like this happen and the department for being there I know it means a lot to the community. Thank you Yes They're closing it at river and i'm not sure how far the closure is i'm hoping that chief hebert can Fill in how far that closure will be You can bounce your way down the street cool Great any questions for council Any questions comments concerns from the public So seeing and hearing none I learned to entertain a motion for approval of the event permit for the hickok street block party Second motion by house second by christine any further discussion Seeing hearing none. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. And those opposed Motion carries. Thank you. Thank you very much I didn't be approval of a treasure appointment. So as noted, I'm a worker on our coming up I come to you today Very disappointed in that we had received acceptance for after a round of interviews Just backing up from a public perspective council authorized group to go forward with posting in an interviewing treasure applicants And that that was conducted interviews were done And a finalist was selected the finalist actually also accepted the position So we have been working towards doing this final approval for the last couple weeks. Unfortunately today Due to a Conflict at their work. They've decided they can no longer accept the position So I come to you today very disappointed to say that as of this afternoon Our finalist that the committee had selected and put forth two for consideration Is no longer able to accept the position The current plan is to have myself and Nicole reconvene with jesse and the selection committee again And take a look at the other applicants that we interviewed in the other pool of applicants and decide whether or not Going back out. See appropriate Next step or action. There was another Files for example in the mix for a while. So, you know, we've got some other things to consider there So that was the plan next step of action unless the council has any additional guidance or feedback in regards to That action plan I'm hesitant to benchmark an exact date that we could have somebody else forward just because that process could Could play out over some time Questions concerns Okay, so we'll reconvene and we'll report back as soon as possible in regards to where that items out again Thought we had that one done finally, but Unfortunately just changed it any questions or concerns from the public Okay, so seeing and hearing none That this is on as an approval item. So I will call There's not there's not a name to call for in terms of a a motion of any kind. So we're going to move on with this item Okay item bc um Which is on approval tonight charter changed to allow all resident voting and non-citizen voting Charter language and ballot resolutions. Um, let's do what we have. It'd be great. Um, so before you tonight Bob De Palma is here as our city attorney Our number of items presented to you tonight in your packet. Um, as requested at our last discussion There are there's a memo from staff on operational impacts and if implemented what this would look like from our voters experience There's if you decide to move forward tonight, the required resolution that you would need to approve actually Announcing the intention to put it on the ballot and setting the public hearing dates As requested, there's two different sets of charter chain languages one with The allowance for all resident voting by itself and one with The allowance for all resident voting and the protection of the voter checklist So it's two different documents. Um, and I will say in the back There's also photocopies of the memo and the Charter language for the public if you're interested in seeing that and of course it's posted online as well And then finally I did include the a copy of the Winooski school charter as well Just for our reference So that's what's before you. We're happy to Talk through the operational impacts talk through Anything else you may have questions with or simply answer questions so to Referring to as the resolution does Here council in august opted for a schedule to pursue the Potential ballot language and initiate the ballot process potentially We approved a timeline To review that that this is kind of the the the next Step where there's an actual vote That would move it towards the ballot So prior to this discussion In the last meeting we had a review of the potential ballot language And some of the issues done by our attorney and also staff from an operational perspective We received a memo outlining some of the legal questions concerns and items in the last meeting And we received we asked for some feedback some additional items to be followed up on And this new manager has presented that information back to us I'll also note an item that's not in here And that is council expressed Concern at the last meeting that That this impact or this item would also impact the school board trustees which elections As we went back through and that's provided for you here The school district is differential To the city's definition of what an eligible voter looks like or not looks like but who is an eligible voter As a result of that we reached out to the city and by we I mean or to the school I reached out flagged this issue Explain the timeline provide them with the dates in which the decision would be made and offered for the solicitation of input Either formal or otherwise from the district The district through the superintendent and the school board chair declined to provide any input And in a conversation You know the basic reflection that I can give is that there was a sense that they did not have enough time to address this issue and take it up in a way that From their perspective was feasible Or at a pace in which they felt like they could provide A any kind of definitive it feedback So that's a summary of that exchange In in terms of of us putting out to the school board. So I'm going to add that in here for additional context because I ran that communication versus the city manager doing this research Okay, so I think there were a few items that council wanted to highlight From the last meeting in regards to what was being considered both from from the voting ballot language information and also from I think those core pieces of The outcomes that are being proposed here for the intent of the charter change And we've asked for this information back. So I think this juncture unless there's additional analysis or input that wants to come from Um, you know the legal side of things sitting operational measures I don't think so. I mean, we're happy to talk through the documents if that's helpful. Um, or just respond to questions. Okay Um I think I think at this point Um I'm inclined to Ask you to maybe talk through some of the documents and why decisions were made In regards to specifically the proposed amendment document for starters Sure, um, can can you walk through the two different versions of the actual charter? Is that what you're talking about? Absolutely So as jesse told you you have two versions in front of you They are identical except for one difference Um, which is some added language in one of them in section 19202 So both versions have four main sections roland's one two three and four And sections two three and four in each version are the same And those sections are just cleanup versions. They're really not substantive to the main issue that you're addressing Which is permitting non-citizens to vote those three sections contain changes to Um, to other provisions in the charter which reference the word citizens And there was some feeling that that may create some confusion as to what citizens made means So in those three sections, we've changed the word citizens to either resident or person depending on the context And in each version that you have in front of you those changes are identical Um section roman numeral one is is the the the main provision that you have in front of you And in the the first one in your packet It contains The the bare chains just changing the the the concept of who is an eligible voter within the city for municipal and town meeting elections The second section adds a subsection d To this revised section 19 202 and that subsection d incorporates Very closely the provisions of act 128 that was adopted by the vermont legislature in this past Past session to provide some element of protection for the state voter checklist And In this draft we've opted to try to adopt Those provisions as closely as possible Hoping that we can mirror whatever procedures the state puts in place with respect to the Municipal checklist that we would be developing under this this new regime if you could ask Is it you say we hope that we would do this and that's because we're not aware of what the mechanics of that Are going to look like I'm not aware of that at the moment And I think that there there may be some serious questions as to how protective those provisions are In large part because it it the provisions of act 128 purport to restrict access Of the database to certain Agencies over which the state does not control And so it's not clear to me how how those provisions will play out as they get implemented And is there an implementation timeline expectation from that you can discern in any way shape or form or is this Was this is essentially a legislative? It's something that was done without Direct action correlated with the passing of legislation. I'm not privy to that So I don't know what the secretary of state's office is doing right now about that. Okay. I think it is in place It just requires an affidavit That you're not one of you know an individual that meets this criteria you're acting on behalf of To my knowledge somebody who fits that criteria has not requested the state by a wide voter checklist so it But there is a problem it is in law and there's a practice in place So I don't think at the state level that that process That eric just outlined is very controversial There may be some commercial users Or commercial parties that would like to have access to the voter checklist that may feel some restrictions there But other than that there is um, I don't see it. It's very controversial with the version that's in front of you There is a Political element to the proposal that May take on more importance with respect to A party's seeking access to the voter checklist And to not speak in code A little more clear about what you think that means What we're going to be concerned about is whether federal immigration authorities are going to want to have access to the city checklist Just as an example The city of san francisco has just recently adopted a A provision which permits non-citizens to vote in school board elections only school board elections and in the affidavit voter affidavit that is Given to perspective voters when they enroll to vote There is a notice at the top of the affidavit Which reads important notice for non united states citizens Any information you provide to the department of elections including your name and address May be obtained by immigration and customs enforcement ICE and other agencies organizations and individuals And it goes on to recommend that People reading this consult with immigration attorneys or other parties that protect immigration rights So clearly that's in this sort of setting. We're in a fairly politicized environment presently and These are the kinds of things that You may want your voter registrants to be aware of if they're going to register the vote And for that reason the addition of this subsection d in in this proposal Um Creates issues and I just don't know how they're going to play out Thank you So other than a subsection d. I'll I'll just walk through the particular provisions of of the amendment to section section 19 202 section a Incorporates most of existing language, but it adds some additional language that makes clear that the qualifications for voters In municipal elections will be governed by subsection b in the section whereas other provisions of state law Regarding voter registration absentee voting and the conduct of elections generally will continue to be governed By what's called general law, which basically is the election law of the state of ramon Subsection b provides that for a person to vote in a city meeting or municipal election That person needs to meet three requirements is a resident of the city Is 18 years of age or older and has taken the voter's oath This is uh in distinction to existing state law Which requires in addition to those three requirements That the person be a citizen of the united states a naturalized citizen Uh, I want to highlight Um one provision, which is the requirement for for residency Um residency is a defined term in vermont statutes And it means a natural person who is domiciled in this state As evidenced by an intent to maintain a principal dwelling place in the state indefinitely Um and to return there temporarily absent coupled with an act or acts consistent with that intent So for each registrant there it's a factual question as to whether that person Satisfies this residency requirement for the vast majority of people. It's Very simple question. You know, I live at at 10 main street. You know, here's my here's my driver's license Here's my utility bills and I've been living there for five years That's pretty simple But for others and especially in the context of this proposal There there may be some additional questions as to what residency means And again, let me turn to the hot button issue, which is the immigration question One of my partners who is an immigration attorney has told me that The only Citizen who can legitimately claim a right to indefinite Residency in the state or in this country is a person holding a green card That um persons who have other forms of Permission to be in the united states, whether it's a student visa An h1b visa a 1e visa There's a whole variety of categories those who are here seeking asylum legitimately all of those parties have a Temporary right to be in the united states and and My partner suggested that or question whether Any of those parties who do not have a green card, but are otherwise here legitimately have As a matter of wall the right to remain indefinitely So there's some questions about residency in the context of This immigration issue, which I don't think we we can resolve I just wanted to point them out to the council so that you folks are aware of the issue Does this go back to we had a question at the last meeting about whether or not we would be to create a potentially a new voter's oath or have two separate ones Yeah, and and I think we came to the conclusion that one was not necessary because the that voter's oath Is that's in place is applicable for all levels of election in the state of Vermont including local elections So we did not see the need to revise that I thought the conflict was that the voters of Specifically reference in references is it not No Good faith from the state of Vermont So well, maybe what you're thinking of is we would need to create a Winnowski Form to register to vote. Okay. I did not ask them to affirm citizenship status So we wouldn't we would have a separate voter registration form But the oath that they were attesting to would be the same. All right. Okay. So the oath itself isn't the issue It was the it's the mechanics of the registration form Yeah, okay. That's correct. Well, I think, you know, that's This you know the definition of residency that is in state statute is vague and leaves that gray area that is at the crux of um, the discussion around citizen Students right to register as well And the argument against allowing students who live in our residence of say Winnowski To be able to register and vote here That's where that battle has been traditionally fought is over the question of students college students I have a question. I don't know if it's for carol or but how do we Affirm residency currently so currently when they come in to register to follow. Yes Either as for a driver's license of the last fortresses of their social If they have neither one of those two, we have to have we have to contact the secretary of the state's office And how does that link to residency in terms of the last four digits of that? I mean, do we do we then check up on? So once folks we added the person to the voter checklist The driver's license has been verified and the social security Okay, but if somebody Had moved and still had like a Rutland address but had a vermont driver's license It wouldn't check for residency that things But the vermont driver's license The license number that you've had will always stay with you. So if they move from Rutland to Winnowski So my check for that is that at that if when I move from Montpelier to Winnowski And I came here to register for to vote carol went into the database could find me Could pull me off the Montpelier list and put me on to the Winnowski list Right, so you can't be registered to vote in more than one community Right, you can you can only be a resident of one place at a time But it's actually really an issue Yes, so is it more a function for voter checklist? Like maintenance so that we don't have duplicate all across the state There's a process by which that's reconciled through the board of civil authority on a periodic basis where they can do They can do a purge Essentially where there are letters that go out alert residents You haven't voted here in a long time and and flowers to general elections Give them a chance to Reactivate which the ramifications that are less now that people can do same day registration because we'll leave somebody on the call We're trying to vote in that case so If this new scenario where we have a municipal checklist then and these folks are not registered Um You know for state and federal elections if they don't have a driver's license or a social security number then what? Is there for them? so The conversation we had Internally and that this outline of the memo is that we we believe it's the intent of the council to limit barriers So we would for me the municipal checklist We would ask people to to provide some documentation verifying their name and their date of birth We don't currently ask for proof of residency. So we wouldn't ask for that for all residents We really tried to stay with how are we treating people as equitably as possible So we would ask for that proof of Name and date of birth the same way we asked for driver's license or social security number But we would be very broad about How they provide that documentation? We we purposely didn't List out a kind of documentation to provide But then it could be broad And that they would attest to the fact that they live in widowsky Thank you Other questions and this juncture for bob in regards to what's been said so far for I mean we're kind of going into the operational piece that was going to go to next which is great I just had one more on the voter checklist stuff In a conversation with someone at the secretary of state's office. It's conveyed to me It's my understanding that act 128 Does that then this was different than my initial understanding the protections do apply to the municipal Voter checklists. They can't be requested by federal agencies or designees thereof The thing that's different is that it doesn't require the affidavit for somebody requesting a municipal checklist So our language would only differ from state live and though that's already technically true Um Somebody can't request it if they meet those criteria Ideally, but we have no way of knowing that this would just add that affidavit requirement. Is that You know I don't know what the state is is required And I I think my question is more along the lines of Do our Employees have the authority to deny the production of documents to the federal government if requested to produce documents It's a hot topic subject, isn't it? Yeah Yeah Because I I worry about giving people a false sense of security If it doesn't actually if we don't actually have the right to withhold documents So I think that the the answer is is that Municipal employee could not Deny a federal agency information requested by it federal agencies have pretty broad investigatory powers short of the right of subpoena and things like that and I haven't Researched this but I suspect that most federal agencies have sufficient powers to have the right To demand and obtain information from municipal officers I do think it's interesting even if you Even if that were the case, I mean, there's nothing that we could do even if Somebody who doesn't meet that criteria Could sign that affidavit have the checklist and hand it over to somebody else in a manila So I do agree that there is there's an inherent liability that someone would be taking to register and You know be a part of a voter checklist um, I think this is a I've quite frankly think that this is a Issue that's born out of the subject and is not one that we have Even vetted at the same amount in pace from a timing perspective as the broader issue And expressed and have not had satisfied deep concerns over trying to overlay this Act that doesn't appear to have clear implementation doesn't appear to have clear quite frankly functional um Any kind of functional guidance given in terms of how it applies Or its efficacy in doing what it's intended to do I walked away from my last time with such a very concerns and getting the sense and research afterwards that There's a pretty broad belief that this was not necessarily an effective piece of the legislation in terms of what it was hoped to do by advocates that supported it But it was the best thing that could get done And that's that's again concerning for me to have us throw that into this Without really understanding How those pieces are going to fit together that's So remember the the baseline here is that voter checklists are public records under the under the public record act and although Section act 128 I don't think purports to amend The public records act it is it will probably be construed as some partial exemption from the public public record act um But the contours of that and how it operates at this point is is pretty much an unknown And and so We we're we're going to be operating first with that baseline that that a voter checklist is a public record available for inspection by anyone for no reason I definitely hear what you're saying seth and I think you know, I do support inclusion of language. I understand where you're coming from But i'm also okay with it not being in there and that really came out a result of That this is already technically It's a protection that is technically already in place. It's just affidavit The addition of affidavit that we would be adding for a process, but that said too, you know, I'm I'm okay with Moving forward without that, you know with the one the first of the two Without that language, although if there's support from other counselors, I would like to include it I do think Irregardless of whether it's in there or not for individuals registering if this was passed, which is a long could be a long time down the road There would be a liability. I like the idea of having some sort of You know morning language or just a language language that says voter checklists municipal voter checklists are public records That could be accessed by individuals and here's the type of information that would be included on it Like one of the biggest and most important things is that we're not asking Or documenting what somebody's citizenship or immigration status is So obviously you can't disclose what you don't have So I think that that's critical so this, you know I like this language, but it's also not a lockbox. It's just another layer of protection I also don't feel like it's a hundred percent necessary in order to move forward I do think there's a you know an assumption of liability for some individuals in some way But at the same time You know, my guess is even if we had the most iron defenses around access to the voters checklist If somebody was undocumented I don't even think that assurance would likely be enough for an individual to take the risk of registering to vote, which is unfortunate But it's just you know likely a reality And I also think it was interesting in my conversation with the clerk and mayor in Tacoma Park, Maryland Which they've been doing this since the early 90s. So a really long time And their checklists are entirely public records can be requested I think they only have that you have to be a registered voter in the state to request the checklist But they have not had a single request from somebody who's not a campaign So I did find that interesting in this heated political climate Yeah, sounds like there's a lot of if and maybes and possibilities to that. So that's interesting, I guess People will vote as to whether that's enough again to put it forward from a public policy standpoint um Other questions about the Specific language that's here because I want to circle back just to summarize and touch on because it's not in this item Talk about constitution piece and just summarize that in case there is especially if there are people joining us for the first time on this topic I don't have a specific question about that language But I have a question about the school district charter language and how it connected school district charter language that we have and Whether I'm not clear based on a read of the language Whether trustees to the school board Will now be eligible to be non-citizens or whether State law that applies to election of school board members applies Have you looked at that Bob? I don't want you to do it on the fly. I think that's a to me If we have two municipal bodies one It's not I see a lot of references to the petition So nominations for the office of trustees shall meet the requirement made by petitions and meet the requirements of section 7 of the charter of the city But I don't see anything about either nominations for trustee or trustees themselves that would Have title 16 not apply. So I think having different bodies Different folks eligible to run this is a question that Deserves further exploration I think we brought this up last time about even our own seat or like The city's municipal seats if they would be If like this change would make them available to non-citizen residents, I believe the answer to that question would yes It's not clear to me what the answer to the question is in the school district context because the references within the charter to the city charter speak more to the Who's eligible to Sign the petition Not who's eligible to run for office And the australia ballot piece instead of the insertion 7. Okay Yeah But I think if there are other parts of state law that do apply to me we could fix that with our charter For uh, we don't fix that with our charter the school district addresses it in their charter. That's how it works Um, and again just for context Indication was this is not an issue that they're going to take up now or on this timeline in terms of November just to be clear, right So that's not that's not something that I think that there's been I would also say So my point is it's not a seamless transition where we don't even really need to worry about the school district Side of things. I think there are issues Impacting the school district that have not been certainly haven't been discussed by the school board Um, but they've not been analyzed by an either our attorney or the school district's attorney. That's my One complication there is that the school district charter References provisions of the bonuski city charter that are no longer in effect. Yeah When the bonuski city charter was amended in 2013, I think it was the existing references in the school board charter weren't reviewed and updated to perform To the new bonuski city charter So we've got some references there that are obsolete and the question is so now what What parts of this bonuski city charter in fact do apply to the school district? I think there's an answer to that, but you've got to wend your way through a couple of legal doctrines to get there I would defer to your legal expertise, but they probably have their own attorney too Yeah, it's it's not it's not something that that I want to open And I want to make really clear Walking out of this room is that we won't be issuing a rendering a legal opinion for the school on this issue And you may shape or form. I think the questions here are only for context In the fact that there's recognition that Whatever the city does in our charter because this the school cross references it has an impact On the way that they're voting works and potentially on office holders Other since we went into the school charter any other school district items Okay I'm wondering just it and this is kind of putting on the spot I'm wondering if we can do a just a very succinct summary in regards to the discussion Just to crystallize it in regards to constitutional challenges That that we discussed last time in terms of the process by which There could be a constitutional change, but that there being some uncertainty there living in Well, so the bottom line is that there is sufficient uncertainty as to the effect of the constitutional provision that that We don't know whether Our Vermont constitution will be interpreted to permit non-citizens to vote until our supreme court answers that question There are arguments on both sides. I think there's a good argument that the constitution does not prohibit Non-citizens from voting it certainly gives a constitutional right to those who are citizens Who are residents who are over 18 and who give the oath And those if you check off those boxes those parties clearly have a constitutional right to vote Whether the legislature has the power to expand that box Is an open question. There are some commentators who would say that the language of our constitution opens the door for that But there's no clear answer until Until we get an authoritative view So I don't think I can say that that the constitution is so clear that the city council is prohibited from Moving forward on this path. But I don't know if someone who if someone challenges That question would not prevail before the supreme court And can you ask so Because if we were to move this forward and then if voters were to move it forward The legislature the legislature were to pass it, you know at those different stages Are there different actors that are liable for you know Defending against a legal challenge in that case does that change as it goes down the process or is it always us? Well, so I mean the city is always going to be a party to that because it's it's the originator of the proposal if the legislature does adopt The provision then an aggrieved party would make the state of vermont a defendant in the case And the attorney attorney general's office would Be called upon to defend the position of the legislature And the constitutionality of the enactment I assume I think we discussed last time I assume that before the legislature Got to the point of approving this it would have solicited the opinions Uh, at least from the attorney general's office if not from other other parties that Play a role in drafting legislation Thanks Believe we also discussed though that there's we can't control when a citizen files suit So a citizen could file suit before it even gets to the legislature. So if the measure is approved in november A citizen could file suit and then the city of wnuski would be the sole Defendant in that scenario That is correct One question that's come up from some public comment to is Can you address in any way shape or form? What the exposure or potential liability from a legal perspective for the city may or may not be in this and I'm just going to summarize what I think and folks are Welcome to Welcome to make adjustments to that if you've perceived it differently I think the bottom line answer is is unknown that because of the nature of the issue it certainly Will say and invites opportunities potentially for either organizations individuals or interested entities with an opposite perspective of this proposal to file suit and You know just generally the city is then required to very responsibly defend itself And what that may or may not look like? There's not some pending suit That you know, we're aware of we have not received any communications that were aware of that You know an organization said we will do this as a result of you doing this So I think that's that's where we stand in terms of potential legal liabilities I certainly see the potential for it because of the nature of the issue Don't necessarily have clarity around Maybe each of the legal points in regards to what somebody could or could not argue effectively against it and Probably reasonably regardless of how much time were spent or not spent on this issue would likely never get to a place of being able to definitively put that into a box Because again as Bob indicated that's the until the Supreme Court makes a decision, we don't know But want to make clear that We have acknowledged the fact that there there is the potential for that commitment that liability and their responsibility to the to defend itself on a policy that's put forward Any anybody have anything That thinks Are you saving correctly? No, no, I just just question came to mind if that were the case Would that impede the legislatures involved in this process? Would that throw that timing off in any way? Or would that just proceed It would depend on if the court intervened based off of a motion to stay the legislation and I don't I don't even know how they would intercede Yeah, I don't I don't think that a court would interfere with the legislative process My guess is that the legislature This is a judgment call on my part, but I would think that the legislature would be very reluctant to move forward with the legislation While that issue is being adjudicated by the courts It would want to see how ultimately the romant supreme court would decide that issue That would seem to be the most conservative approach that the legislature could take in that setting Do you think conversely a court might say this is a non-issue? And we're going to wait to hear this until the legislature decides whether or not this even exists That is a possibility That that you know, then the legislature is in a sort of an awkward position It's got a lawsuit sitting out there. Is it going to act In the face of that lawsuit or not? I'm not quite sure how legislative leaders with you Proceeding in the face of that It's a possible outcome sounds all very hypothetical. There's a lot of different potentials. Is the issue right? Well, I mean just that's just very important for everybody to keep in mind just because The community approves the charter change doesn't mean the legislature has to do one thing about it It can sit on the wall And and and if there's any sort of legal liability associated with it that makes one, you know One bit harder to get it off the wall That's just I mean one way to defend against a suit that was brought Immediately after the number six Is to it's to argue to dismiss the case because as you say That it's it's a moot point at this point because all the city has done is ask the legislature to do something until the legislature Does something there's no impact right from from the action of the city voters That's one possible possibility that would cut off that lawsuit until the legislature takes it further But we're we're dealing with hypotheticals here and I don't know how a court would react to that What else in regards to the charter change language and the school Peace and we've kind of thrown in what's the the legislative process Are concerns there because just so that I just want to walk through any operational items including expenses and comments that are in there next so you can be thinking about that Before we get to that so your time out legal exposure, which was in the in the document as like unknowns There is also a line there about federal government interpretation In the list of unknowns, so I wanted to hear more and for folks at home what that means so the reason I included that is You know, I think we're in a political place where The federal government may not look kindly upon this action and we have some we get support from a federal government in a Lot of ways for example, we've a billed grant into them now for millions of dollars And we just have no We don't know what the political read of this action might be on those dollars and there has to my knowledge There has been no withholding of funds for an action like this. It is a complete unknown But in a competitive grant process They're not bad. It's not like Um The other you know the the funds that go to the police department Where it's an allocation that sort of is guaranteed According to a formula that there's really no room for judgment on the part of the federal government versus grant Making process. I think there's a fair amount of discretion in terms of What gets funded and what doesn't right and so the you know the funding part is one side You know I do we have seen in other communities where Political actions have led to ICE raids. Um, I think that's also an unknown You know, I think that's got to be balanced with giving access, you know, what is are we You know, we've talked before about words matter actions matter. So what's that balance? Are we are we opening our is opening the door of the community value more than the risk we might put some of our residents in? um We don't actually know what our population here is most anecdotally, I think we know that most of our population is here in some kind of appropriate legal status so should not be concerned but But it's a scary time for people who don't look like me Just hear you aware of the city taking any actions to reach out to I'm I'm just not to reach out to the The new american community to ask for their input or thoughts on this from a logistical standpoint Or otherwise are you aware of any efforts to do that? We as city staff have not done that Yeah, because we didn't we don't know how this is moving forward. Okay I mean we should be aware that there's a lawsuit presently pending against the u.s. Government over its efforts to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census form um, and there is At least the argument being made by those opposing that action that even asking that question Raises real risks as to whether the census will be accurately conducted. So sort of plays into the The questions that you're asking Going back to the funding thing. Well, that seems clearly a likely scenario of Maybe not likely but a possible scenario of like penalized grant View is that technically legal? Not quite sure I mean clearly there we have heard threats from the justice department That it is going to take actions against cities That have enacted what the justice department views at sanctuary city laws Now this is not that But um It certainly does give you concern as to what Strategies the federal government might deploy In this environment With that you said you've heard in regards that there have been those threats in regards to sanctuary city status Are you aware of any or have heard any either legal or other implications for the 12 municipalities that have non-citizen voting Or any pushback from the federal government or The ramifications for this You know, I only know what we've already done newspaper. Yeah And how about any of those happened in the last 18 months San Francisco is really good. Have we undergone a comprehensive legal review of potential cases? I mean, I guess that's the other question I understand we know what we don't know and we know what we do know, but We know but we don't know in terms of cases that might be out there We haven't done that. I have not talked any other communities about who adopted this They've experienced any funding reductions or or legal challenges in general I think that would be so state by state dependent because it's nothing in the u.s. Constitution that prohibits it just comes down to state constitutions So legal challenges would probably be very different than ours because our constitution is different than those states Additional questions on the language The charter the charter for the school the constitutional process The legislative issues Or legal challenges Okay, I think now it would be good just to walk through the operational points of the memo. Sure. Bob. Thank you So I'll walk quickly through this so Staff wrote this from the perspective of if this change is implemented. What would how would our practice be Impacted and what would residents experience and this memo was in the back with the two charter changers that people want to read in depth Also on the website So as I mentioned before we would create a new When you ski specific voter registration form that Individuals who would fill out if they weren't filling out the statewide form Big difference there being a citizenship status or non citizenship status We would try and mirror it as closely as possible as I said earlier that our value trying to interpret how this would be implemented was to treat all residents of when you ski as equitably as possible So what how we would actually administer this in carol Please feel free to jump in is we would we would maintain two voter registration lists. We would maintain a when you ski municipal voter registration list that was comprehensive of all residents Citizens and not since citizens eligible to vote in the city of when you ski And we would and then we would maintain a state and federal voter registration list through the state Vermont election management system so Municipal list is comprehensive state and federal is only citizens And it outlines there what we would track in both those systems We would use our existing NEMREC database, which is our financial and data collection tool to build that municipal voter registration list Also, I do want to just note here In the last sentence of the paragraph on the municipal voter registration We we say we're going to track citizen and resident status era brought up a good Suggestion as we're trying to get away from the use of citizen that we could change that language to eligible for local elections Eligible for state and federal elections just so we're being as clear as we can be So on election day, how We anticipate this being implemented is that we will from moving forward always have a municipal ballot And a state and federal ballot if there's a state and federal election at the same time So for example, how many day there's often not a state and federal election So we would only need the one municipal ballot But if there is questions on multiple levels of government, we would have we would always have a local ballot So for example, jps would be moved to a local ballot We would also have to run local primary ballots as jps run on a party basis So somebody a resident walks into the voting booth They're welcomed by the election greater the election worker identifies their name on the list sees which sees which elections They're eligible to vote in either gives them one ballot or two ballots The cost implications for this we recommend that one moving to All local ballots. There's about a nine hundred dollar per ballot cost to print ballots So as we have and that's that will differ year to year depending on how many elections we run, etc But there wouldn't be that at a cost at hundred dollars per additional Ballot and then we are recommending that we move we currently operate our elections with six election workers And we're recommending to double that which is about a cost of a thousand dollars in election Simply because right now the election workers work in teams one checking off the list and one handing the ballot and as we're Going to have to make decisions which ballot in each individual case which ballots each person gets We want to just be sure we're protecting the accuracy of that election And and providing more support to do that Um, so at the end of the election at the end of the election day How this would work is we would take that when muski municipal voter registration lists that had the two columns of eligible for local elections and eligible for state and federal elections Each election worker would tally the numbers and that those numbers would be balanced against the number of ballots cast So we would have we would maintain that checks and balances of Okay, we had a hundred people take out local ballots. We've got a hundred in we had a hundred and Or 90 take out state federal ballots when we have 90 in So we always need to have that Parallel counting to balance the ballots to those who took ballots and then as Christine started talking about We've listed some unknowns there You know, this is an emerging Innovative thing. So I'm sure there are things here. We have not thought about yet, but this is what we were able to put together in the last couple of weeks One example that just came to me today after we published this was You know, when muski is a member of several regional governments Including the shambling war district which into any public safety authority Which in kind of solid ways that have bonding authority When they bond those go to the local voters So we'd have to go back to look at each of those charters to see if those who qualify as municipal ballots or state and federal ballots And if they qualify as municipal ballots, does that mean when muski is weighing in in a different way than our surrounding communities are Weighing in and that is quite frankly just research. We have not done yet.  We just have not I think that's those are the highlights from what the operation perspective anything's going to get carolinist Questions comments concerns in regards to the operational First of all, thank you very much for putting all this work and time and effort into You know in a short time span to put all these To put this together in the most thoughtful way and you can see that it's evolved each time you've brought it back in terms of The concerns possibilities of what would be necessary needed. So thank you very very much for all the time and effort energy That went into that appreciate it And again just just to give you all a plug you're the silent heroes of this community I had people don't know what it takes to pull off an election day and make you go so smoothly like you do Each and every year and we're so appreciative of the work that's done to do that. So thank you very much Okay questions comments concerns on the operational portions of the memo from council I just wanted to echo that thanks Because there's also been a lot of change in our elections recently between same-day voter registration and You know the implementation of two-factor authentication So I just really want to thank you for all of the work that you do on our elections And I know this would be something that additional in that You know the list of changes that have been passed down from the state if we move this forward But thank you so much for putting all the thought into what I think is a really good framework for a process That we could communicate to voters if we decide tonight to move this forward operational questions Yeah, so So you guys have indicated that You can build a new list So we have like the state-based list right and that exists so like existing registered voters don't need to do anything new And then you can build a second list to include these other folks that are just doing locally But That cost estimate is actually not included here Is that right? Okay That's a staff time and capacity impact Okay And and we did have that conversation and I think at this point we feel like At least initially that's work we can do within our current staff capacity Okay, it's really ensuring that well we're making sure we have ballots And then to ensuring that the elections run smoothly is really important And do you think that like the doubling of staff would that be Necessary from here on out or is that something that you start with because of the changes and then potentially Well, I think that it's going to double in staff and there's a primary and general election when there's two Elections that are involved between states. I see okay Other questions comments concerns from council in regards to process questions After this, I think it's appropriate given we've kind of walked through the main points of this to turn it back to the audience to see if There's questions comments concerns from the public on the item So when I give you a another shot if you've got anything to wrap up with the city manager and See his attorney After the public comments, we'll turn it back towards council to consider any final thoughts communication and Intermotions Okay, I did so the school district Ballot questions would be on the local Local ballot Yes And so if If a citizen is going to vote on state federal and local questions Are they given two ballots or does the state and federal ballot include all local questions? They'd be given two ballots Always have a state a local ballot and a state and federal ballot And what we learned was that our Ballot reader can program for two simultaneous ballots So they'd all go into the same place, but there would be two different ballots So citizens if they wanted to vote in all elections would fill out two ballots What about the infamous Shall the community accept federal funds? I mean, it's a local decision whether we're accepting them But is there a qualification and voter requirement on behalf of the federal government to authorize that? Uh, we will have a chance to re-engage if necessary So this isn't the last clutch from open up the public and get those comments thoughts questions concerns see what we're not thinking about Um, so if this at this uh point time, we're going to open up the floor for Questions comments concerns uh to council just remind folks You know, generally it's a packed agenda tonight So we appreciate if folks can try to stay in the range if you've got comments of three minutes You know, we're not going to be quick with the buzzer if you go a little bit over that's okay Also, please remember to adjust council. Um, and that means you know Turning around to your neighbors and having those conversations here You're welcome to in the parking lot or the back, but for this purposes Please direct those comments concerns and questions to the council and with that we'll open it up for Comment, we've got a microphone right there. We won't ask that folks come up We do appreciate if you could please state your name clearly as you begin to speak Just raise your hand we'll call on you Yes, sir My name is John Slinkman Resident of Winooski live down on Winooski Falls way. Uh, I think you may know my wife Lauren Sampson Um, I think he's been here to speak uh with y'all before about this measure Um Lawrence my wife, I think she's a fantastic person. Uh, she's a Canadian citizen. We are going through Uh an extended process of trying to allow her to become an American citizen As you all know that is a Flop task in these times. Um, I know that one of the arguments against this is that people should earn their keep They need to go through that process, but honestly Who knows how long that will take? Um, it used to be a matter of a month before you knew and we have been waiting for quite some time Frankly, Lauren is a more impressive citizen than I am She serves on a number of boards too many to to list I've just paid on the Winooski restorative justice board. Uh, she does that. She does COSA. She does library committee. She does Planning commission. Um, I think I'm forgetting a few The only thing that she can't do that I can do is vote and uh, it would mean quite a bit to to my family personally If that were allowed, um I think there are a bunch of things to say about the, uh, you know More generally about this, um proposal. I hear I hear a lot of, um I would almost say, um, I understand the the desire to move conservatively and make sure that we have checked all all boxes, um But it also feels a little, uh Like we're afraid to make a stand for something that is right. Um, this is This is not a matter of citizenship. This is a matter of democracy and, um, you know voting in local elections. These are people who You know, I heard the I understand the argument that, um You know, maybe students shouldn't be allowed For the same reasons, but the fact of the matter is they are and, um, the street that I live down on is filled with students and young professionals who Uh, can Prove that, um, you know, indefinite desire to stay here. Um No more than any, any, um Uh, you know, uh, non-citizen resident can and, uh, yet they're allowed to vote on things that affect them and People who are here for 20 years, 30 years are, are not and, um I mean, at some point it's a matter of fairness. It's a matter of justice and it's a matter of literally small de-democracy And so I would encourage all of you to, uh, support this, um If for no reason other than that, um All the other stuff, you know We can deal with that when it comes, um, but for now just take a stand and do what's right Um, so thank you. Thank you A little public comment Yes, sir Excuse me, George Cross. Thank you for giving me a chance to speak First of all, I want to mention that the memo that was prepared by the city clerk's office and the city manager's office is An excellent document that outlines all kinds of of issues And I would like to take just a second to quote From that document, um On the section is called unknowns Other details. I won't bother going. I like you've read it Legal exposure federal government interpretation particularly this federal government I might add parenthetically New translation expectations, which you didn't speak about But it's possible. I would assume from that question as do we need to have the ballot In a number of different languages Uh, so so that everyone in fact can exercise. They're right Tonight I learned uh, thanks to the mayor that uh, the school board has decided to Say we don't have enough time to do this We don't even have time to think about it. And so they have not done that We've also heard a number of items from the attorney dealing with the Unknowns but expanding on those unknowns I don't understand the rush There's another election coming in march Nothing's going to happen by the way between november and march that allows Put this thing in place before the march elections. That's just not going to happen the fact that the matter is That from my perspective The city council ought to pause Maybe even establish a committee that includes new americans and well As citizens who've been here for a while And to discuss all the things that you've discussed tonight So that everyone in the community knows about all these things And then if it's decided that it should be on the ballot Put it on the ballot Put it on the make put it on the march bell It can be on any ballot doesn't have to be on a november ballot That would give your attorney time to research some of the questions That he's raised this evening give you a city manager the opportunity city clerk the opportunity to think about some of the problems And how they might be resolved in the issue But to simply put it on the ballot for wenuski to be the first And to absorb all the costs that come with being the first Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me Because there will be costs at every step of the way There will be costs associated with putting it on the ballot There will be costs associated with going to the legislature There will be costs when the legislature decides they're not going to do anything about it As nicole said has put it on the wall Been there many times So I urge you to pause Create a committee of citizens To really look at this thing Hear the same argument you've heard this evening And then when the time comes If it's decided that it's a good idea To put it on the ballot to put it on the ballot And march or even the next march whenever it is It's important that the difficulty That the we understand what the impact is on the school district As well as on the city I point out again there are two separate municipalities Two separate charters And they have to be a part of this They can't be left with we don't know what's going to happen Because they're in the same process you are putting together a budget to be voted on the march Well, if they've got to put add to their legal fees to be able to Overcome the obstacles that you put in their way Then all you've done is added to their problem. There's no reason to do that. There's no hurry We can do this. We can work it out. We can figure it all out one time or another If you are going to put it on the ballot I would urge you to divide the warrant The section in the two parts So that one section deals with non-citizen voting The other section deals with the change of citizen to resident Because you already have non-citizens serving on a variety of committees And so that should be cleaned up in your charter regardless of what else you do. Thank you Thank you, Mr. Cross I'll pull a comment. Yes, sir Hey, Aaron Lepamon. I already talked to you about why support all resident voting so I'm not going to repeat myself I want to share a more personal take I bought a house in Manuski earlier in the spring And I was voting last month as a first-time homeowner and I got a little emotional just reflecting on how proud I was how proud I am to live here And what a vibrant democracy we have And I want to Expand that by inviting all of my neighbors to vote in local elections There are a lot of unknowns here We can't control what the legislature is going to do what the vt supreme court is going to do What the federal government is going to do But we can only do what we think is right to build the community that we want to live in And that's what I ask you all to think about tonight when we Vote on whether to move forward with this Every every step toward social progress always comes with somebody or some group of people Having the courage to take that step And I want that to be our city tonight. Thank you Thank you I pulled a comment. Yes, sir Hello, my name is Brian Meyer. I live on Main Street here in Manuski I want to speak not just in favor of Allowing non-citizen voting for residents of Manuski, but also for putting it on the november ballot Countless studies have shown that voter participation is much much higher and therefore more representative of communities when issues are placed on ballots That take that coincide with general elections So I believe putting pushing it to a march ballot would make it a less representative of the wishes of the community Um, and just I wanted to just say I echo the the points in favor of allowing non-citizen voting Um, if folks live here pay taxes here Support the community work every day to make it a better city. Um, I believe they should be allowed the The right to to express that form their their opinions in the form of voting Thank you. Thank you Yes, ma'am Hello, my name is Margaret Tyson. I'm an american citizen I just want to say that I know the city is trying to Be something special You are special You're special to every citizen that lives in this city You don't have to do it by trying to make New ways for our country The country was founded on voting for american citizens I have nothing against people that are not american citizens And I know how hard it is for someone with a green card to get to be an american citizen That's part of what america is It's even harder for refugees And i'm sure it's difficult for anyone that wants to become an american citizen But it's worth the fight You are making it easy For them to settle in and say I don't have to do anything I can vote What will it be next? Are you charting a course? That other cities will be following. Are you trying to be the first? To initiate this You're following california What is our connection with california? We're a little city one square mile. We're proud of it We've welcomed every type in person that has come here We've opened our hearts to all of them We're not cruel. We're not Bias We're open-hearted people. I've lived here all my life Born here My mother heard her citizenship. My grandmother and grandfather Earned their citizenship I guess I have to change it now I mean american citizen You can't always try to move forward on minority Wishes The majority Usually it's what follows We the majority have the vote And it's not that I have anything against anyone But it is something that this city should have given much more thought to and much more care of their citizens Than to move out with unknown to anyone and see it Did you see that they're doing this without even letting us know You began it the wrong way But I hope you don't end it the wrong way Think this out as george said Step back two steps Try to understand what america is And what america Citizenship stands for yes, I know it's difficult. They serve on boards. They vote I mean they pay taxes I understand all that But you can't start By making this Our law And hoping other cities will do the same thing It's not right And I know in your hearts, you know, it's not right We should keep our voting to american citizens And I hope you do give it some more thought Thank you. Thank you Yes, ma'am I know former deputy mayor Sally tipson Been here for a few years I want to thank you folks for all the work you've put into this so far And I'm here to say I'm not opposed to this whole thing I agree with george slow down. There's no rush I've heard a lot of words tonight probably maybe could You know might those are words that perhaps if a group would to study the whole issue for a little while That some of that's make become clearer I think it would give time to perhaps educate the citizens because some of the comments that are being made on Front porch forum are rather unkind I think maybe with a little more education People knowing what you're talking about instead of oh my god, what's going on in wanooski. We can't do this Let's step back take time One of the other things that bothers me a bit is It's causing a little diversity And it seems like of late. We don't need another topic to separate the city We've had f-35s We've had main street revitalization We've had the main street pool issue. We've had it topics on the park lot Let's come up with something that we can unite the city again You know, I'm thinking pumpkin Maybe Do something like that, but again, thank you for your work. I hope you will step back take time It's a rarely serious thing And do your best. Thanks. Thank you Other comments from the public Yes, sir Last time I This is very very difficult for me again Same as just a couple of weeks ago. I'm slightly more married To come up here and say this again because I support this goal I've worked towards this goal when I was on the council but you got to slow down and You know, you don't have to fill all the boxes, but you got to fill a lot of the boxes and it's clear again tonight that Honestly, there are just more questions than answers and that's just because it's just a big issue and your staff has 900 other things that they need to be doing and you're pushing them too hard and Honestly, I'm afraid you're going to push some of them out the door Not because they disagree with you on the issues, but because there's just it's a limited limited staff here. This is in burlington You know you you're asking questions like what's the legislature going to do? Who's reached out to legislative leadership? Who's reached out to the ag's office governor's office? Lieutenant governor's office. There are answers out there So I just hope that you take it back and you get not take it all the way back that sounds wrong, but You know move forward at the appropriate pace Make sure that you're doing this the right way. Thank you The comments questions concerns from the public If it's a short one, that's okay This is actually on my original list. I'm not full speaker. So I'm John sling and I was just up here. I want to highlight the issue of welcoming and being a welcoming community and I mean for better or worse this this subject is here now We are dealing with it And this is not going to be a welcoming community if we step back and say no, we're too afraid to do it And you know That is something that we I have heard all everybody here say we aspire towards But saying this is not the way that is not a step towards being a welcoming community And I think you will see a very strong negative reaction from your fellow residents If you step back and fear For that very reason. Thank you. Thank you Other questions comments concerns from the public going once Going twice Okay We'll now turn back towards council with any final questions for staff Little council and any comments questions leading up to a motion. So I will open the floor counselors I have a clarifying question for If this measure is not on the ballot this november and because of the potential Implications for a constitutional amendment or change Would it then be set back another four years? In order for the process to If we don't get it through this window not for but to to the Amending provisions in the constitution require permits you to Um Propose a constitutional amendment only in odd number biannium So I would interpret that To mean that if they don't do it in 2019, they would have to do it in 2021 However, as I looked at the um The amendment to this provision that we were looking at it was done Beginning in 2008. I'm wondering if the constitution actual or the legislature interprets the constitutional provision as permitting them to Bring forward a constitutional amendment at any point during the time in any biannium So I would say that the maximum delay isn't to the beginning of the 2021 biannium but perhaps they may feel the license to bring An amendment forward at any time During this upcoming biannium, which begins january 7 in 2019 And if they they do that there it is a A process where now they have to wait till the next biannium if they if it's approved In this current biannium then they have to wait till the next biannium for the legislature to approve it again And then it's put on the ballot for the voters So it's basically a three-year process Can I can I ask a clarifying question on that? So if What we talked about at the last meeting was requesting that the legislature Change the constitution to remove that language Which is not something that we have prepared to be before you tonight as that official request from you for that constitutional change That doesn't require the same public vote the same vote of the public So you could do that at any time And I my interpretation of the only look at before was that it could be any time during the First session of the biannium. So if this went forward in march Oh, therefore went to the legislature much that would count as part of the First session of the biannium. Yes, that's correct. So it's not november or two years. It's You know before the end of this session More two years Yes And again, that's initiated by the legislature The city council can adopt a resolution urging the legislature to do that But but it must be initiated in the senate By a senator and and then brought forward from that point forward So it's a whole different process that we're trying to remember. So I think I've spoken at length Obviously about how I support us moving this forward So I won't delve into My reasons for why I think this is right for our community in depth just that I think it is incredibly important We ensure that all of our community members all of our residents who are just as invested in the future of linooski As the five of us sitting up here have the opportunity to participate in local decision making alongside us One of the things that really resonated with me hearing some of the public hearing comments tonight Was in regards to whether or not to move forward with a november or march election. I think You know listening to comments Within these chambers tonight and comments. I've had outside of our community on either side It is a really big and important decision for our community And I think we have a responsibility to our voters and to our residents To allow people the most number of community members to weigh in on that important decision making And I think I would really struggle putting this before voters in march when we have 10 to 20 percent voter participation As opposed to a november election where we can ensure the most number of people in our community have an opportunity to consider this for and the implications of it for our community and You know in regards to a lot of the maybes and ifs I don't think even if we were seven months Or five months seven months three years five years later down the road and still having this discussion We would be any closer to definitive answers on the majority of those maybes ifs, etc I think this is a discussion that has gone on for a long time in our community We just heard that it was something that was discussed in a previous counselor was Interested in moving forward at the time So it has been discussed prior and from what I've heard from people In that community is that they're ready to vote on this That they're interested one way or the other and whether or not this is the direction our community would take So I'm strongly interested in moving it forward I'll leave it that Thank you Going around You know, I think I think something it's been really clear From the beginning for this body is And I won't speak for everybody here I I'll say for myself. I'm philosophically aligned in support of of All resident voting. I think it's something I expressed my support for it When we had a charter change committee I expressed my interest in looking at it Um We deal a lot with comments about the speed and pace at which government makes decisions and acts and I know coming from the outside I certainly came into this position and role and in a representative space as elected official With a sense of urgency and desire to see the changes that I felt strongly about in the community take place as quickly as possible um It took me a few stumbles bumps and bruises and My opinion some negative effects in the community To recognize that there's a process that has to take place in the community for big decisions We're not an election. It's not about getting the most votes We're putting these positions in these seats Not just to represent the people who voted for us Who are going to vote in favor of the policies that we put forward the budgets we put forward We're putting these seats to try to represent the entire community including the people who are going to vote Against the things we put forward and to me that's really important because it it means it takes time And it takes a process for the community to be able to unpack something And I think references to the main street or pool vote is unfolding quickly Quite frankly are somewhat laughable. We've been working on main street for 10 plus years It's been a process that was envisioning for 15 plus years From the pool perspective. We've been engaged in replacement conversations for the last six years including a active committee for the last three It's not just our responsibility in my mind to make the right decision. It's our responsibility to do it the right way I've been really proud of my time serving on the ski about the way we've made decisions And the way we've moved forward and the support that we've gotten back from the community because I feel like there's been support for the way that we've done that I have never been more disappointed than to sit here today and have a conversation about something where we haven't even engaged One of the public bodies in the school district on this issue that it represents so so In such a direct manner That that to me is just 100% completely unacceptable I'm also really disappointed the fact that we're sitting here today with not a single member of the new american community sitting in the audience And to my knowledge, we've done nothing to interact with that portion of our community About this issue and especially about a number of the procedural items around that how we can best support this in being successful It's it's great to philosophically want something. I want something here. I would love to see this be accomplished It's another thing. I have your ducks in a row from our operational legal and structural perspective To know that you know what you're making a decision on and I don't feel like we've had enough time to do that From a technical perspective Just the subsection d128 enforcement issues the definition of what the intent resident What the intent of the residency definition looks like the green card issue What documentation is going to be required for proof of residency or address the constitutional provisions the liability and court issues The process uncertainties that quite frankly, I think have been called together as quickly as possible and I appreciate the presentation I feel like I could have asked about a thousand more questions on that And that there are a number of holes on there that it's just not even fair to try to do right now And then the principle fact that we haven't reached out to our legislative body We have not reached out in any way shape formed to the governor's office that i'm aware of or any of our senators We had one house of rep come in for one of the first meetings and give some thoughts on that so For me those are huge overarching concerns and you know, I very much respect the idea Of this is the right thing to do and therefore you should do it And I think that that's a that's a great thing From a from a philosophical approach and perspective It's our job to make unpopular decisions sometimes to do it the right way and to do it in the right manner for the community And I think we can give wunuski more time to do what it's always done Which is rally around the issue Process it and come to as much of a consensus as we can as a community About what we would can and can't accept and it's going to do nothing Breed confidence in this body if we were to take that step And I think it's going to do nothing but create a better good sense of goodwill in the community About people who are diametrically opposed to that on this issue. You just philosophically aren't going to lie But at least if they can have comfort in seeing a process play out That appears transparent thoughtful and as though it was handled in a way that's Specific to our community and quite frankly tries as much as possible to tune out the noise from the outside We are we are in local government here. We are not here to make I don't think that our Citizenary Alexis to come here and try to address and deal with national issues on national timelines We're here to try to do the best we can for the residents of wunuski And so I I can't I can't support putting this on the ballot I will say that if that's the decision in this body I will go out and fight like hell for it And try my best to make sure it does pass because someday in the future I do think that this is something that is going to be right for wunuski I'd like to see us take a step back set up a new timeline that includes Doing all those things I just discussed in a thoughtful manner That looks at march and you know what I can't even tell you that I think march is the right timeline right now And I'm not trying to say that to make this an indefinite thing that goes on forever It's just we've been so full tilt and gear on this We have any time to catch our breath and think about okay now that we understand more the issues How long is this going to take and what kind of public process should we have? I took up my three minutes and then so Um, I agree with a lot of what you said. I just want to reflect on a comment that was made that I really you know resonates with me and that was Asking us to do what we think is right to build the community we want to live in Um And the community I want to live in brings people to the table to have a discussion about the pros and the cons and the different points of view And create space for that and makes that okay for people to disagree and work it through um And not sort of draw some lines in the sand that says this is the right Way and if you if you're not with us and you're afraid or you're not willing to take a stand I think It's it's a complex issue. It's a really important issue for many people living in this community And I do not think we've taken the time that we need to take to flesh that out and give people the space that they need to um air their concerns ask their questions have thoughtful and concrete responses not coulda shoulda woulda maybe um, I think it's Terrible process to not include the school district as an equal partner in this conversation They are an equal partner in everything we do and so we ought to treat them that way. Um, so I would Again, um, and not philosophically opposed to all resident voting. I am Definitely opposed to moving a process forward without giving voice to everybody that lives in this community and making sure that we are responding to Um, their interests in a in a really comprehensive and thoughtful way, so I do not support moving forward with All resident voting in the november ballot. It's not because I'm afraid it's because I want this community to have this conversation So I also strongly support the idea of all resident voting the idea of franchising as many people as possible and Raise many voices to the table as possible um We make decisions here all the time where we don't have all the answers, but we have as many as we Think we can get to let voters make a well informed informed decision and After these last two meetings and the questions that we have surfaced I don't currently feel like we have The information available to voters to make an informed decision this rapidly Um, it bothers me too that we haven't engaged the school district this idea of You know potential negative ice whatever the potential for negative reactions Again starting the current community and we haven't actually talked to them about that and how they feel about it bothers me we have about seven weeks to do any kind of engagement and I I don't feel confident that that is enough time to Get where we need to be on this um, I Definitely want us to continue moving forward with Investigating this and bringing this to our voters, but I also cannot support a November timeline other comments questions concerns from council and issues that where it doesn't appear that there's Uh, unanimous potential to show my account stories that motions need to be made and be affirmative Motions will be called for three times according to robert's rules Um, and again a motion must be in the affirmative. It cannot be in the negative In other words, you can't say I make a motion that we don't do something You can only make a motion that we do do something And if you wish to vote for that you vote. Yes, if you wish to vote no, you won't know on the affirmative So with that uh, last call any comments questions concerns from council I would make a motion to adopt the proposed amendment to the wunewski city charter to be placed before Wunewski voters on the november general election ballot including language with voter checklist protection voter checklist protection protections A second motion Motion by erick second by howling for the discussion Seeing and hearing none of those in favor please say aye. Aye. Aye. And those opposed. No No With that the Item is Did not pass Okay, um, I just as a wind down conversation on that. I think there's a a follow-up A conversation is a result of this that will occur And we will bring this issue back as warned Next time for something along the lines of next steps for working on this issue And uh, what exactly that will look like? Um, I don't know because we haven't put any time or thought into that But we'll put some Maybe additional timelines down some facts try to pull this information back out there And then reassess Of what senses of timelines are like that's the best I can kind of do with that right now from a public warning perspective is Reapproach this from a timeline perspective Okay, yeah, I mean I would be interested in Language that would put together a committee Yeah, as a next step I think the committee should drive the process not arbitrary timelines that we've set up is my view if we create a committee So we will we will bring back back process opportunities timeline opportunities Um And if there are other components folks can send an email Individually not to the whole group not to break open meeting laws to Jesse and myself and request of any specific content matters It will be sure to try to make sure those are addressed Okay Okay And thank you from the public for attending this evening and waiting. I would appreciate your time Um, okay up next is discussion slash approval for Oh, yeah, we're gonna take a we'll do a two minute recess three minute recess two minutes. Is that fair? Well, let's reconvene at 8 25 Okay, we will now call back to order the winewski city council meeting and pick up our agenda where we left off Up next is Item D discussion approval ordinance change consideration for repeal section 6.4. Can you aggressive begging panhandling? chief hebert club, we talked about this quickly at The last meeting and city updates as you know, we We're one of the communities in the state that received the letter from the ASLU about panhandling ordinances So there's a brief discussion about wanting to consider repealing our aggressive panhandling ordinance So before you tonight is what such a repeal might look like And if you are interested in continuing this the action would be To move forward with their appeal and set a public hearing they could do that To make the ordinance change and The chief is here if you want to ask any questions about How we currently use this ordinance the response we heard from staff is there was no issue Functionally from the way we do business through the experience when you see residents in their communities a result of this change There's not My recollection is this just to be really clear my recollection is this actually was founded and put into the Into our ordinance as a result of the fact that the pto used to have a coin drop And literally we wove in and out of traffic when muski was just a four-way plan and Caused massive backup so again just because I can't sit here and not take a shot back at an entity that decided to Do this publicly versus actually sending us a letter notice in some kind of legal way My understanding historically in talking to people about this issue is that this had never had any kind of Tenor or purpose in this community other than to quite frankly Settle a little bit of a dispute as to whether that was an acceptable way to raise funds for the pto So I know there's a larger cascade of issues and this is sensitive to people But I do want to put that in context from a historical perspective because I heard some pretty disturbing responses as to What the intent of the city was and that and felt The need to clarify that Other questions concerns comments from council So I have a question about Legal review so the letter from the aclu which is a highly regarded Advocacy organization Made a number of allegations and assertions in a letter That claim that our Ordinance is unconstitutional. It may very well be but I have a problem with just taking at face value A letter from an advocacy organization Making statements about our ordinance without going through some sort of process on our end to vet those Claims with an attorney. I think it again to me. It's about good process Good process is not we are in receipt of a letter and a press release saying we're a foul of the constitution And we haven't taken any time or in steps on our end to verify some of those claims In addition to refuting the motivations that were alleged in the letter. I think it's important to just make sure We're not just going to sign off on something without doing some homework on our end I think for me, it's less I'm in favor of repealing the ordinance less because of that constitutional question and more just because from a value standpoint I don't support aggressive hand handling bans Um, and if it there's no operational impact on the way we're currently doing our work in the city To me, that's a no-brainer. And then if there are additional questions about potential constitutionality That we could be liable for that's a bonus that we don't have to deal with So I guess that's where I'm coming from I just don't like the I'm not in favor of the ordinance to begin with There's no operational impact to the city. So I am supportive of repealing it So to be clear, I think what you're saying and what was said at the last minute is that we don't enforce this ordinance anyway so, uh The years have kind of blended but when uh, then chief steve mcqueen Did the rewrite of city ordinances we looked at this and we changed it from Panhandling in general to aggressive panhandling and and what that changed Although it was subtle It was really for the really uncomfortable situations where somebody wasn't taking no for an answer and just Really not being very polite about it And the reason we felt it was important to keep it at the time Was because we like to handle things locally here on when you ski and that gave us the ability to refer somebody Uh to the city attorney For maybe a possible different outcome where the community justice center could get involved Where we could refer these people to services where they could do community service rather than a fine or jail time So that's why it made sense at the time We felt that it gave us a little bit more local control and some more creative ways to actually deal with the behavior And so what is it is happening now? We don't have aggressive panhandling. I'm trying not to I don't want to give too much information so We actually had um A situation at one of the city functions not too long ago where somebody very aggressively Was approaching our senior citizens demanding some of their bingo money And saying you need to give me your way, you know the winnings and we felt there was more there than the behavior That there might be some um mental capacity issues. So we got the community outreach team involved They went to the person's residence. They spoke with them and they did speak of this ordinance and it stopped the behavior They corrected the problem. So it does have some value, but it's not traditional What you what you think panhandling is sometimes it's it's really a non-traditional thing that You know served a purpose pretty recently so there's If we have an aggressive panhandler you Without this ordinance still have Recourse to address that issue. So yeah, I think it'd be easy to write an affidavit Unfortunately, it'd be at the state level. So if somebody's Threatening or tumultuous behavior, it's considered disorderly caught up and it can be a whole bunch of different varying Behavior that falls into threatening and tumultuous. Do you feel uncomfortable because of this person's behavior? They could still refer it back to the Rep. Board through the state process Other questions comments concerned from the council I'd be interested to hear community or Eli art is somebody less likely to be referred back to the Rep. Board in those cases If this did not exist If there were other avenues we needed to pursue for I guess it probably is too widely dependent on the situation But if this ordinance wasn't on the books Whatever processes we needed to deal with that situation or behavior Is there still a very clear and likely path for somebody went out bookable to the Rep. Board or I think as long as our cjc continues to exist and function in the way they do I think that the court isn't going to take up a lot of time in criminal court for this type of case That seems reasonable, but I mean I'm on that reparative board and I think that approach has a lot more impact would change in someone's behavior and some coordinates that you know about some money And what is aggressive, you know, I just think More of a deeper conversation can really come up with a different outcome. So I think the question for the I haven't heard a lot of technical concerns, I think the one outstanding one is whether or not we invest any resources in regards to That I guess validating the claim would be the appropriate way of saying it Well, I guess I mean if we're doing it on a legal basis, then I'm not interested in taking another organization stay so if it's a Just morally repugnant or operationally useless, you know other grounds then that doesn't seem Like a good use of our resources I'm not clear where folks are coming from the big thrust of the letter was Citation after citation of case Yeah, well, I think it became the impetus to ask the question of like, okay To to address this concern and then to his flagged What's the operational and human impact on the grounds of community members into the staff? So I think we're hearing I I can't answer the human one. I guess that's what we have to decide if it's You know, if we think it's Exists, but from an operational perspective, it doesn't sound like there's Too too much there We still we still respond in the same way. We'd still offer the same services in the same way We we didn't you know get the community outreach team involved that that was appropriate The only thing that will change obviously is that Court will have to refer it back to our CJC but that's why we have CJCs for cases that are low level and Just quite honestly don't warrant the time that you can criminal court So I'm pretty confident that they'll end up back at our reparative board either way It gives me a slight pause that removing this could potentially send more people to the actual criminal justice versus The sort of justice board I understand that the thing to remember is that we haven't ever issued since this ordinance change went into effect We've never issued a ticket. We've never brought anybody to the reparative board It's just another tool in the tool belt that it there it's there It exists and we're able to use it in a conversation to change somebody's behavior in that one instance I'm also a fan of Not having laws that we are not using other questions comments concerns from council I mean, I guess I just come back to process So we get a letter We had a very brief discussion about it We don't have anything in writing From the city staff about sort of the rationale. It's all been sort of discussion And I just I mean, I think there's probably A host of ordinances that we have on the books that we don't use So I just I just Feels like Not a great process to say. Oh, you know, some advocacy group doesn't like the fact that we have this ordinance on the books It's gone and there's not a lot of Analysis, I guess And maybe we don't need to do any analysis, but it just it's not an approach that I'm real crazy about I think grossly for me it was less the letter triggering my response and more the letter triggering knowledge of the ordinance Um, not knowing that it was an ordinance prior so Sorry, oh You can finish your thought. That's it. Um, I so I just wanted to address Nicole's question directly We have not had legal look at this at all. Um, this was solely a We received this letter brought it to your attention I read the tea leaves that there was interest in repeal. We don't need it from an operational standpoint So far to you, but absolutely we could have legal review of Seems to be a pretty quick item to have them look at I would $1,000 of time just having to go through the legal sensations. Yeah, I mean, um I don't know. I'm not I'm not going to draw a line in the sand that says we have to do it I just need to be like on the record that I find it very problematic It seems like we're getting into tariff and I guess this is our ordinance We need to take responsibility for our ordinance, but we're we're we're having folks come to meetings or send us communications Saying that we need to take a stand on this side of the other issue That has operational impacts even though if it doesn't have an operational impact, you're all spending time We're spending time in a meeting Responding to requests from outside groups who have A point to make and I appreciate that there are points that need to be made But I get I am frustrated by the amount of time that we're spending at this table on these types of issues when there are no Recorded impacts on our residents and instead, you know, we've got any very ambitious housing Agenda we've got big things that we need to do. So I'll stop talking Register my frustration that way And I'll say is the person to ask for it to come forward this time my perception was That given some of th