Welcome to the Only Easy Day was Yesterday, the official Navy SEAL podcast. Navy SEAL officers are expected to lead from the front. Successful SEAL officer candidates are exemplary not only in physical fitness, but in other crucial areas such as discipline, resiliency, innovation, intelligence, tenacity, and leadership. There are various accession paths to get to the selection program known as SOAS, or SEAL officer assessment selection. Today we hear from SOAS program manager Andrew Dow, who explains the difference between enlisted and officer roles, the checklist of steps to follow, and the criteria that the NSW board uses in their selection process. Thank you for sitting down with us. For people who might not be familiar with you, start by just giving us a little bit about your story coming into the Navy. Sure. In the Naval Academy in 2007, I was Bud's class 270, finished hell week, and then graduated with 273 SQT class, SEAL qualification training. Upon graduating SQT, I went and did three platoons in the SEAL teams, two assistant officer in charge platoons, and then during my platoon commander tour, I finished that and was medically retired from the Navy as a lieutenant. Okay. Is that where you picked up doing what you're doing now? After I did my two assistant officer in charge platoons, I went and did my platoon commander. That was cut short, and I was medically retired from the teams as a lieutenant. Upon finishing that, I worked for Apple for 14 months as an operations program manager in capital expenditures, learned a lot about corporate America, and decided that was not for me, and I really wanted to get back to the team environment. So I went and I earned the position of the SOAS, the officer assessment selection program manager. And that's what I've been doing ever since 2015. Okay. So starting from the ground level, we're speaking about SEAL officers here. If you can spend a minute talking about the responsibilities of a SEAL officer versus an enlisted SEAL, what makes the jobs different just at a fundamental level? Absolutely. So the biggest difference is one's an officer, one's an enlisted, right? At the end of the day, it's a team environment. So everyone's working off each other, and it's the job of the officer to make sure that the enlisted have task and purpose of what needs to be accomplished. One of my old platoon chiefs told me that this is the best way to see it. The officer is a general manager, and the platoon chief, the senior enlisted of the platoon is the coach, and your enlisted guys and gals are the players. For more in-depth, you know, the officers, at the end of the day, it rides on what the officer has done. If something goes wrong, it rides on him. He's the one responsible at the end of the day. He gives what is necessary to get done. He provides his men and women with the proper equipment, what they need, you know, task and purpose, and everything else that is needed in order to accomplish the mission. It is their job to action the mission. That's the enlisted job. They're both leaders in their own sense, you know, not just officers. Enlisted SEALs are leaders within their own right. And it's so important that they have a good cohesion mix working together. Yeah. So I want to touch on that a little bit because there's considerable overlap in the qualifications or the personality traits for both of those positions. Can you talk a little bit about where they differ in terms of the officer side of the camp, so to speak? So I get this question a lot, and from interested candidates, the biggest thing is, hey, I'm not sure if I want to go officer enlisted. So the biggest difference, right, is in order to be an officer, you have to have a four-year degree.  But the big, big difference is enlisted have a specific job and a specific specialty. And what I mean by that is, officers go in, their job is to lead, provide top cover for his platoon or his men. The enlisted job is to, some of them will go and be breaches, you know, that's a specialty school. Some will go and be snipers, that's a specialty school. Some will go and be a communications expert, that's a specialty school. The officer's job is to make sure that he's utilizing all his pieces in the correct and most efficient way. So these officers, are they functioning alongside enlisted guys with rifles, you know, jumping out of planes, or are these guys kind of more command and control positions, if that makes sense? So what's really interesting, and this is, people may not know this, is when these individuals, officers enlisted, go through buds, they're doing everything together. It's the officer's job to, you know, be in charge of them. But during basic underwater demolition seals, they're going through physical phase together, dive phase together, land warfare navigation together, then they go into seal qualification training where they're learning close quarter combat, diving, land warfare, weapons manipulation, free fall, learning everything that enlisted an officer, learn the exact same thing to earn their trident as a seal. When they get to their team, that's when enlisted will specialize it, whether it's breacher, sniper, communications. The officer will be the one who coordinates all those positions and utilizes them to the best of their ability. When it comes down to deploying and being in combat, the officer's role isn't just sitting back. He's carrying a gun just like the enlisted, if there's a firefight, he's the one getting involved as well. In the end of the day, it's his job to make sure his guys are coming home. It's his job to provide that, the big picture. He needs to step back when the bullets are flying and like, okay, what's the situation we have here? What's my next step? I need to be thinking three steps ahead so I can protect my men and provide them the necessary assets they need in order to defeat the enemy. But you're providing them with all the logistical and tactical oversight so they are able to successfully do their mission. Most of the time, you will go on missions with them. So a bit of both. Absolutely. But it's so important that the officer knows his role, hey, you're not the guy kicking in the door, but you need to know how to because that time will come. Right, right. So they really separate in the professional development portion. These candidates or these officers, what types of personality traits do you see consistent among them or in the past that maybe brought them to the place they were as successful officers? Do you see consistency there? Definitely. There's traits that Naval Special Warfare looks for in their officers. It's important to know that officers should be professional. They need to have tenacity. The leadership is what brings it all. Guys are not going to follow you if you do not know how to lead, taking charge and leading. To go back, the teams are the teams. It's a team. So you need to work together. You need to know how to, regardless of what a session source for the officers, ROTC, Naval Academy, Officer Candidate School, you need to work together. You need to be able to work with, there's introverts, there's extroverts, you need to know how to work and handle and how to communicate what you're trying to get done to each one of these individuals. And at the end of the day, it's got to come together as a team. Naval Special Warfare hones on being professional, being that quiet professional, humility, having military bearing as an officer. That's so important. Define that a little bit for me, for people that might not be familiar. Military bearing. So a simple one, how you look in uniform, right? Some guys may, the simple one, a gig line where your belt, your belt is off-centered. Having good military bearing is making sure your belt is aligned with all your creases in your top and bottom. Attention to detail. Attention to detail. Exactly. The officer is expected to lead from the front in that sense.  If you don't look good, he's going to assume your guys will not look good. Right. So setting an example. Setting the right example. Yes. Being that leader, setting the example, carrying yourself with pride, especially with everyday tasks, as simple as keeping your uniform clean, having a good clean haircut and shave, you know, having that good military bearing. It's funny to hear you say that because my father is a West Point grad and hearing you give such a succinct explanation of him is really hilarious because that's like my whole childhood and it was stressful living under him. You know, because just attention to detail. I'm not like him in that regard, so it's just funny to hear you say this.  Yeah, right. And that's interesting. That is important. I knew, as a professional, I do have a lot of attention to detail and I do feel like, I guess that is kind of what you're speaking of military bearing. And you developed your own leadership style from that. So that's what's true. You learn it from different leaders. You could take bits and pieces from people, hey, I look up to him or this is someone I don't want to be. So you take what they do poorly and you say that's not going to be part of my package of a leader. So I guess maybe reading between the lines, it's good for people to take leadership positions early in their, you know, adolescence or early adult life. I mean, just as a human being, it's important to have that. You don't want to be... Right. Not doing that. Exactly. Developing your leadership skills early on is very important because, one, it can only grow, it will get stronger and you'll be able to utilize it and shape it into what Naval Special Warfare is looking for in their officers. And simply as being active as an individual, participating in sporting events, participating in volunteer work, community outreach, just being involved in having people skills is one of the most important things of being an officer. Basically, your whole growth is your rehearsal before you get there. So you want to be as prepared as possible before you actually go and do the seal route. Just exposing yourself. Just don't be... And in the teens, they call it a gray man. Don't be a gray man. And what that is, is just someone who... And we've heard that before. Right. Just, you know, just... Sliding under the radar. Right. Exactly. Just coasting through and you're doing things right. You're not doing anything wrong, but you're not excelling. You're just being average. Seals are not average. They want above average. Exceptional. Where do you kind of come in to play in terms of making this selection? Is this after people have decided to become a Navy Seal or is this way earlier in the process, in the recruitment process that you come into the fold? So my role specifically, I start engaging or communicating with aspiring Seal candidates once they're in college. I do get calls or emails from high school students and I tell them, hey, you know, the most important thing is get your education, get that for your degree because no matter what, in order to become an officer, you need to have that degree. So then the next step is, all right, so what should I do to get that degree? Should I apply and go to a service academy, whether it's West Point Naval Academy, you know, Air Force, or should I go to a regular college that has an NROTC program attached to that college and do it that way? Or should I just go and get my degree and then situate myself, experience a little bit outside of college and get a job and see what's out there and help build my whole person, my brand, and then do officer candidate school. So I'm dealing with OCS, ROTC, not as much service academy, specifically the Naval Academy because they have their own process, but I'm dealing with students or college graduates who are in the process of, do I want to become an officer? How do I do that? OK, so for people that are in school or going to go to college, are there certain educational tracks that are more beneficial to them, become as successful or be even being accepted as a SEAL officer, whether it's political science or international, whatever? If you want to know what majors, it doesn't matter and what I tell all my candidates is do something you enjoy because at the end of the day, if this doesn't work out, at least you have something to fall back on. You need to have that backup plan. And in the teams, that's part of your pace plan. Your primary alternate contingency emergency, your secondary plan is your alternate plan. What is that? I want to be a journalist. I want to be a historian. So do that. The selection panel is looking at, if you do, say for example, economics and you have a 2.0, that's going to look poorly.  I'll just choose something easy. It doesn't matter what I get. It does matter. You can have a 2.4 in a chemistry degree and have a 2.0. The board's going to look at that, the SEAL board, say, OK, it's a challenging major. He's trying to balance this with athletics or with ROTC or with clubs or volunteer work. And it's a challenge, but he or she is showing that they have that work ethic and determination to, OK, I'm going to graduate with this. And this is something that interests me. I think that answers the question really well, because I'm sure a lot of people think that there is, oh, if I have a degree in this, then it kind of fast tracks me. Degrees don't. Honestly, Big Navy would say something stem, what science, technology, engineering, math. If you go ROTC or Naval Academy, you're going to get one of those. But if you're at a regular college and doing something, I tell all my officer candidates, school candidates, do something you enjoy. Yeah, I think that's the most important thing. Yeah, I was just going to say that. I think the character comes through whenever people are doing what they really enjoy. What avenue into SEAL officer selection brings in the most candidates or that you get the most candidates from? The most success at BUDS at SEAL training comes from the Naval Academy. They have a set foundation of how they raise and grow the SEAL officers of the process. They have a great process. Something we do is focus more on the ROTC and the OCS candidates. We do get a good amount of applications. And we have to cipher through them and see, OK, which of these applicants do we want to give a chance, invite to SOAS. And from there, it's pretty much they have to prove themselves once they get to SOAS. The biggest source that we get, in my role, is OCS. People who have no military experience are coming right off the street with a degree or about to get their degree, or coming from corporate America who wants to become a SEAL. That's the most people I'm engaged with right now. So people are starting this application process at a Navy recruitment office. It starts from the very beginning. They're on a separate track, then Navy recruits. Are these guys going to boot camp and then following up with more education? Or where does that separation really start? So specifically for Officer Cannon School, OCS, this is the civilian that comes off the street, whether they have a degree or not, or about to get one. They go to their officer recruiter, a Navy recruiting station, they start the process. This individual has no commitment to the Navy until, one, he completes SOAS. Two, he's selected to go to Buds. He still is not committed to serve. There's no obligation to serve. It's as soon as he goes to OCS in Newport, Rhode Island. It's a 10-week course that's learning a foundation of being an officer. That's Officer Boot Camp. They don't go to Great Lakes. They don't do any of that. For a civilian coming off the streets, they have no military exposure until they get to SOAS. So are they then brought into the fold at Prep School in Illinois, or do they skip that? Absolutely not. They don't do that at all. The enlisted track has their own track for getting to Buds. The officers have this totally separate track. But for OCS specifically, after they go to the recruiter, the recruiter will set up all the OCS application process. They submit a Naval Special Warfare application. If they're invited to SOAS, they go to SOAS. Once they finish SOAS, and if they are selected to go to Buds in September by the SEAL selection panel, then they will receive orders to go to OCS in Newport, Rhode Island. Upon completion of that, then they'll receive their orders to Buds, and then they'll report to Buds when their orders drop by the Detailer. So my role as a SOAS program manager is to mentor and provide guidance for officer count at school, the regular civilian who does not know anything about the military, and just all of a sudden, I want to be a SEAL officer. Once they get in contact with me, I don't go out recruiting or doing any of that. My job is to strictly give them information and provide and almost hold their hand through the process to make sure that they're doing everything that is needed in order to have a successful application and submit it to the SEAL officer community manager. There's a lot of steps for OCS. I also support the NRRTC process, which is specifically. Let me just interject real quick. That's the Navy. So NRRTC, which stands for the Navy Reserve Officer Training Corps, basically those are individuals who are either on scholarship or not attend a college. And if they're on scholarship, they have their education paid for, but then they are obligated to serve. Upon graduation, they'll earn a commission. For OCS specifically, a kid off the street, I don't mean kid, an individual off the street who has a college degree or is about to graduate, they reach out to me. They get in contact me through the SEAL SWIC web page. Or if they somehow find their way to the SEAL officer community manager page, my contact information's there. And when they reach out to me, we begin the process right there. The big questions are, what do I need to do? What's the first thing I need to do? They come to me and ask me basic questions. OK, I want to be a SEAL officer. What is the route I need to take? First thing I tell them, one is, ensure you're on track to get your college degree, because if you don't have it already. But the big thing they first need to do is go down to a Navy recruiter and speak to an officer recruiter specifically. When they go in there, they talk to that officer recruiter and say, I want to be a SEAL officer through OCS. That gets the ball rolling, because there's two processes. There's the OCS process, and then there's SOAS or Naval Special Warfare process. It's two applications. They're independent of each other, but they run concurrently. In order to move on to one, you have to complete certain steps of the other. So the first thing they need to do is get their OCS application moving. And that involves talking to an officer recruiter. That officer recruiter will start the paperwork and get them into MEPs, which is the Military Entrance Processing Station. It basically gives them a physical assessment and makes sure they're qualified to join the Navy or the military. Later on down the road, they'll get more physically assessed to make sure they're good to go for BUDs, but this is just to get them in the Navy. Right, gotcha. They're not in the Navy yet, but this is just to say, Okay, they have the right eyesight, they have the right weight and height, and they don't have any lingering health issues that would restrict them from being a commissioned officer. At the same time, they have to take a couple of tests, similar to the enlisted tests. So this differs from joining A, the quote, Big Navy, and B, joining NSW as enlisted because they're kind of starting that professional rating from the first time they visit the recruiting office by getting in contact with you and then also submitting additional paperwork. They need to get certain things moving in order to have their Naval Special Warfare application able to start. And the big one is when they get back from MEPs, they receive an N3M letter, which is basically a doctor letter saying they are qualified. They can take that letter and then start the Naval Special Warfare process because that letter helps them accomplish the physical screening test. And that's one of the requirements for SOAS. So after speaking to the recruiter and taking some of those initial tests and kind of getting the paperwork started, are you in contact with them at all through the rest of the recruitment process as they roll in through boot camp and then even to prep school? Or are you in contact with them there? I'm in constant contact with them getting updates. Okay, I just completed my MEPs. I just completed my OAR. What's next, what do I do? That's where I'm constantly hands on with them saying, okay, now you need to start your application for SOAS. And I direct them to the SEAL OCM, the community manager webpage, which can be found at the SEAL SWIC webpage as well. The OCM page is the authoritative. It has the one through eight requirements in order to have your application submitted. And my job is to help them with each one of these requirements and tell them what is the board exactly looking for. One being SEAL PST, the physical screening test. What is a good score for an officer? Really interject real quick. When you say what is a good score for an officer, is there a lower standard or a higher standard for that? Talk about that a little bit. Okay, so the PST, physical screening test, enlisted take it, officers take it. A passing score is 1,200. That wouldn't even get you near the door to have an officer application submitted, a 1,200. We're looking at 50 pushups, 50 setups, 10 pull-ups, a 12, 30 swim, and a 10, 30 run, right? That's bare minimum. That would not fly for the officer track. And so you're looking for people that are, I'm reading between the lines a little bit, thinking that you're not necessarily looking for higher capacity physical work, but it's the way we narrowed it down, working, you know, looking at data and looking at past success rate at buds, so as of PST scores, right? The magic number is roughly 800 comp score or better. When I mean better, the lower the number, the better the score. If you go to the Sealswik webpage, there's an officer PST calculator. When I said the 800 is a magic number, I tell all my candidates, you need to be shooting for anything in 700 or lower. You know, under 800, you'll be looked at, but when you get down to the low 700s, that is what the board wants to see, because you're physically prepared to accomplish or at least attempt so as, and then maybe down the road do buds. So scores like that is, we're looking at a swim time under nine minutes. We're looking at a run time under nine minutes as well. Push-up setups, 90 plus, pull-ups 15 plus. If you can hit these scores, you'll have a physically competitive score with these numbers in your SOAS application. I know I keep interchanging NSW application, SOAS application, it's all the same. It's basically found on the CLOCM page, the separate requirements, and the biggest one they're gonna first see, and even if you get what they're gonna look at is your SEAL PST score. Okay, he's under 800. Let's continue to look through his application. What else does he have that attracts us to him or her in the Naval Special Warfare? So let's speak about that a little bit. I think the important thing to take away is that the SEAL officer PST, not quote requirements, but they really are requirements, are even more strict than the buds requirements for a SEAL. So it's more competitive, but other than the PST score, when you're talking about looking deeper into the application, what else are you looking for? Can I just add one thing? Sure, of course. Between officers and enlisted, right? That the SEAL officer score needs to be much more competitive.  So you need to be in the front physically as well. So that's why our score is a lot more strict and is lower. That makes a lot more sense, even if they might not physically be doing more work as a leader, they need to be looked up to and respected point blank. That's a big part of it. Exactly. Okay, so other parts of the application for the SOAS or NSW specifically, one, you're gonna have a resume.  You know, they only want a one pager. So just like it's a job interview, that's what SOAS is. It's a job interview for buds, but there's physical, there's behavioral, there's mental, all different types of tests that you will go through at SOAS. But in order to get SOAS, you need to get invited. And to get invited, you need to have a solid resume that shows that, okay, you have the things that Naval Special Warfare is looking for. So we talked about the physical, we talked about the mental briefly, obviously the college aspect and showing those kind of intangibles leadership, taking initiative, being part of the community, fill in the blank, doing clubs, or having that involvement, those personal skills. Are there additional, I guess, detailed requirements for academic standards or years spent at sports or anything like that on the resume? So the other things they're looking for specifically is, okay, do you have community outreach? Are you being involved with your community? Are you being involved with your school? This is all building in your leadership because one, you're going outside your comfort zone. That's what SOAS and Buds is. And you're striving to be successful. So volunteer work, community work, clubs and activities, just like we talked about, sports, athletics. I'm not saying if you're an ROTC or an OCS, that if you never played a sport since high school, to go join varsity football. What I'm saying is you need to do something you enjoy that you did do in high school. Try to go do a club. Go do an outside intramural sport or something. Taking initiative in general. Take the initiative. So the resume being essentially a life picture, a personality picture of their history, what else is included? Other than the resume, which is your life story on a piece of paper to impress and to show the board, this is what I've been through. This is some of the things that I've achieved in life. And this is how I can bring it to Naval Special Warfare SOAS. The other things they're looking for, just simple things. You need a photograph of yourself in business, casual minimum. I'll tell you right now, if you submit a picture with you with a full beard and a T-shirt, taking a selfie in a car, the board's gonna pretty much take your application and not even look at it. Professionalism. They want professionalism right off the bat. So I'm not saying you gotta go get a tailored suit, but a nice collared shirt looking professional will carry miles. First impressions. You need an official PST score. And what that means is throughout the United States we have NSW mentors and coordinators that are open and willing. Their specific job is to work with enlisted. But they are more than happy to bring in officer candidates to work out with them. If anyone needs that information, I can provide that contact list. I can provide an introduction to you. But they're one thing in order for you to work out with them. And specifically for OCS candidates is to have that meps letter saying you're physically qualified because they don't wanna waste their time with someone who's not. I'll interject real quick and say for listeners, you can tune into our episode where we speak with a mentor and talk about that boat team process. If that's some area that you'd like more detail on. But you- Yes, perfect, that's exactly it. And they are more than happy to have officer candidates come. But you need to utilize them to have an official PST because they're the ones signing the name at the bottom because they're qualified to do so. So I always give them the contact of what's the nearest Naval Special Warfare mentor coordinator near you. So I provide them that information. So the PST score, your resume, a photo, you're also gonna need to, you're an official college transcript understanding that some candidates, ROTC or OCS may not have their degree or official transcript yet. But it shows that they will graduate on time whether it's May or December. The big one, and this is another important one is two letters of recommendation. And I tell everyone the question I always get, oh, I don't know any seals. I don't know anyone that can really write a good letter for me that's in the community. And I stop them right there. I'm like, the board's not looking to see who you know or the signature block of who you got a letter of recommendation for. They wanna see someone that knows you, knows your character, knows who you are as a person, knows what you can provide in a leadership role and why you would be a good fit for an officer because that's what you're going to be at the end of the day. Whether it's seals, helicopter pilots, army infantry, you're gonna be an officer. That's what they're looking for in the first. So if you don't know a four star general or a Navy SEAL commander, get your high school sports coach whether it's football coach, get your high school guidance counselor. They know you as a person and they can write a real personal letter about you that the board will definitely read and get an idea of what type of person you are. That's what they're looking for for letters of recommendation. So you got your letters of recommendation. You'll need that letter from MEPs for OCS candidates specifically. That's called the N3M letter for ROTC. It's a DD form 2807. So you have all those. And in addition, you need the Naval Special Warfare Questionnaire. That can be found at the SEAL OCM page. It's a straight five question, 200 word max for each question. And it asks you straight point, why do you wanna be a SEAL? Explain some leadership challenges you face. They just wanna touch the surface of what type of person you are and have an understanding before they look at it during the down selection panel in order to receive an invitation to SOAS. I'm hearing that you're looking at a broad spectrum of this person's personality, their personal history, their motivation. You're looking at their education. You're looking at their physical capabilities, the professionalism, some of those intangibles, really getting a really broad picture of this whole person's life and their personality. I guess short of meeting the person and being in their life, this is as close as we can get to capturing the character of these individuals. Yes, yeah. And that's all we can base things off of until we can actually get them where the rubber meets the road and just get them to SOAS. If they meet all the requirements and they are within the confines of what we're looking for, they'll receive an invitation and then it's up to them to prove themselves at SOAS. So just to give the listener an idea of the actual processes in summary, right? There's multiple ways to become a SEAL officer, whether it's going to college for ROTC scholarship, going to the Naval Academy, going to a regular college and earning your degree and going the officer candidate school route. They all have to go, whatever the way is, they have to get their college degree. Each one of those will give them a commission. In addition to another path to do it is, say you go to the Naval Academy, receive your commission and you don't go to SOAS or BUDS, you know, you have to go serve in the Navy, you can always lateral transfer. And what lateral transfer is, basically you earn your warfare qualification of the assignment you are given, whether it's surface warfare, pilot, whatever, then you can lateral transfer into the Naval Special Warfare community. But of all the accession sources, the process is the same where you have to submit during your junior year, whether it's OCS, Naval Academy, ROTC or one of the other service academies. You work with me to make sure you have all the requirements in place. You can find my contact information on the SEAL SWIC webpage, but the end of the day is, you're trying to get to SOAS, that should be your focus. Once you get to SOAS, that's where you prove yourself and then that's where you'll have the opportunity to potentially go to BUDS. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us and I think it's very helpful and it will be a really great companion to the website. One last thing to leave the audience with, if you have any questions about the application process, please reach out to me. I can provide you that information. There's individuals who submit applications and never talk to me and usually their application is wrapped nice and clean for the board. So please reach out to me. I'm here specifically OCS and ROTC, but I'll open to answer any questions that anyone has about the SEAL officer community. Perfect. Find out more at SEAL SWIC.com and join us again for the next NSW podcast. Headstock time for a minute. Ah!