I think that using the rationalization and excuse that security is complex is a broken argument. And the reason is, is that everything in life is complex. And this is the first time you and I are talking, so I would love to know a bit about Traceable. Talk a bit about what is company all about, what do you folks do, especially when we look at the whole security or AI space? Well, Traceable AI is an API security platform company. And we can't really talk about Traceable without talking about our roots, which includes our founder Jyoti Bonsal and Sanjay Nagaraj. And Jyoti had success with AppDynamics, an application performance metrics platform, where the founders learned how to operate at massive enterprise scale, which is incredibly important in the API security space. There's a lot of APIs and they're being used all the time. And our customers are transacting in the hundreds of billions of API calls per month. And what we do is not just catalog discovery and visibility of APIs, but we're able to do normative baseline analytics against the risk and threat of APIs. And we are able to do it at massive scale. So we can catch things that are being abused by the bad guys before companies ever get notices about them from a vulnerability or a published threat standpoint, how we're able to discover those unknown, unknown threats within their environments. There's a way that we've built our platform different at the architectural core. So we've been in business now coming out of stealth about two years ago. And the company has had explosive growth and it's fun to be a part of another one of Jyoti Bonsal's enterprises. When you look at the whole evolution of security landscape, especially with the emergence of cloud, cloud native, how different is API security from traditional security? In my case, I have an unfair advantage in this particular question because I don't come from the solution side historically. Personally, I've been in solutions for about five years, but before that I was 20 plus years in the corporate world. And I was in enterprise roles, including CIO and Chief Information Security Officer, worked in banking for about 17 of those years. So I've been able to see the evolutions of the security and technology stacks over the last almost 35 years. And as we've gone from mainframe isolated systems to client server to data centers and now to cloud, what we see is that there is a virtualization that's been happening where we continuously virtualize upward. First we virtualized compute and processing and storage. And now we're virtualizing everything in layer seven. So all of the ways that applications interact with each other is now using APIs. You don't have to do point-to-point integrations. You don't have to do point-to-point data connectors. And today all of this cool stuff and massive business value is being delivered with APIs except there's been very little on the way of security over the last decade in the API space. So developers have been developing. Cool things have been happening. And now bad things are really beginning to rack up in the API space because bad actors are realizing that they could just attack those APIs and get the same outcomes that they used to have when they had to learn all of the other layers of technology and other layers of security. Now they can just do those with APIs and bot armies and a number of other techniques that are easier in order for them to exploit your systems. And we kind of live in an API-centric or API-driven world as you just pointed out to it. So let's also talk about how serious or how severe when it comes to API securities because when we look at APIs, you can talk about zombie APIs. It's a very big, very complicated space. So now let's look at this report that you folks did. First of all, let's talk about what was the goal of this state of API security report. And then we'll talk about what are some of the key findings that gives us a very good visibility into the state of API security. When we looked at the landscape of analyses and studies that have been done previously about API security, we saw a gap that we addressed with our approach to the issue. We coordinated with Larry Poneman and Sue Poneman, which is a great experience. You're dealing with one of the most well-known people in security studies on the planet. And as we approached Larry for a discussion about this, we said, look, what we don't want to do is what we've seen in the past, which is API security studies that focus on prior breaches or exploits. There's only so much that we can learn from history. What we really need to understand is what are the reasons and the mechanisms that are causing people not to make a decision to secure their API claim today. Why aren't people moving quickly? And when we look at the results and the findings that came out of this study, there are very few things that shocked me anymore in technology after three decades of being in it. But I was completely shocked to see what was mathematically a representation of the cognitive dissonance, this huge gap between people universally stating API security is an issue, a problem, a concern, a threat. It's a growing threat. And even more importantly, 74% of the companies that responded, more than 1,700 companies, 77% of them stated that they've experienced more than three API-related exploits or breaches in the last 24 months. And yet when we look at the study itself as it relates to, and what are you doing about it, the answer is 50%, 60%, 70% of companies are doing nothing. And I don't know that there's much of a, you know, an example in technology history that we can look at that there's ever been a time in this history that we see everybody universally agreeing that APIs are a risk and a threat, and that almost everybody is also saying, I'm not doing anything about it. This gap really, really represents the most important findings out of this study, that we're seeing people sitting and admiring the problem of API security while not necessarily changing their architectural focus, their budgetary focus, their resource focus on addressing the risks and threats that APIs represent today. What is the reason for this gap? Is it, I mean, the tools are there, completely attraceable, you folks are there. Is it once again, as you're saying, you know, initially we started talking about the whole shift left movement and everything else, but that sounds more like on paper, but those things are not taking place in real life in practice. So is it cultural, which is needed? Or it's like once again, CISOs, budgetary, did you also try to find, you know, what is the cause of this gap? Well, I think there's a couple of causes that are really well articulated in the report findings or they're implied and inferred. So a great example of one that's implied and inferred is, is it is very difficult for companies on a percentage basis in response to this study to find resources and money to address this problem, which suggests that we've spent 20 or 30 years building our current state security stack, and it's extremely difficult for us to change course. And why this is a problem is because for the bad actors, they are not burdened with those problems, right? They're not burdened with things that slow them down. Organizational structures, budgetary decisions, they're opportunistic, and our security organizations today are not agile in the face of that opportunistic behavior on behalf of the bad guys. So that's problem number one that clearly is shown in the results that we see. The other is, is that it requires us to rethink how technology is actually working today. When we think about virtualization and we think about APIs being the neural network that connects all of this data and all of these applications today, that's completely different than what monolithic applications look like. It's completely different than what the data centers look like. And we're not really addressing that change. And you mentioned shift left, and I think this is really interesting. An example of why people are not registering the need of implementing API security within their organizations comes with the very simple test that I frequently ask CISOs, which is if API security is supposed to be specific to AppSec, and you are attacked by a bad actor who uses APIs in a bot army to attack your application front end and shut down your digital channels, what vulnerability is that? And there's usually a pause and people go, well, that's not really an application vulnerability. And then my response is, then why are you putting all of your attention for API security in AppSec exclusively? Because APIs now represent a universal attack layer. I can use them to dust your applications. I can use them to exfiltrate data. I can use them to create fraudulent accounts as well as takeover existing accounts. And I can use them like network type packets to do attacks against your applications as well as all of your landed digital assets. And so I think that there's a lack of understanding in the marketplace of the diversity of ways that APIs can be used to attack and exploit. And I think that's really where the gap is today. People really don't understand how this universal attack layer of APIs works. And it makes it difficult for them to make the next step, to think about it architecturally and from a security standpoint. What kind of changes you think organizations need to have so that, once again, going back to the problem that you're talking about, so they're not looking at the wrong things. They are looking when they look at the security, they should have a holistic approach towards security. Yeah. Look, there's patterns that repeat themselves. And I think this gets lost in many of our technology conversations today. There was a time when you could walk into a data center and say, how many firewall rules do I have? And your security analysts would look at you and go, I don't know. Right? That's an unacceptable answer today. There's times when you could say, how many virtual machines do I have? And your engineers would look at you and say, I don't know how many virtual machines we have. They're kind of like popcorn. I can make as many as I want. And yet today, there's no place for a conversation to start with. I don't know how many virtual machines I have or how many web applications my employees are using. Or we see these patterns historically where developers are typically five to eight years ahead of security. That's an understandable pattern because developers' jobs are to deliver business value using technology. Security always follows behind because we don't really understand the dimensions of the risk and threat until things get into production. So I think that when we look at this need for change, we need to be respectful of history and go, how did we solve these problems previously? A solution is a part of that. But one of the things that really is clear is there is no governance. There is no policy framework. There are no security guidelines writ large that are being applied to the API space. And so we're all collectively learning on the job. Not just the solution providers like Traceable but the bad actors are learning on the job and our enterprise organizations and government agencies are learning on the job. It's clear that solution providers and bad actors are learning faster than the enterprise space is. And that's where we need to see those gear shifts change. We need to see intellectual curiosity within enterprises to say, how are all the different ways that I can be exploited, breached or attacked? And am I reducing or expanding my threat and risk surface or attack surface every day? And if I'm not reducing it, what do I need to do to change that? And I think that there's just a lot of questions that are coming to the fore. But back to the most important point that you made Swapnil, the reality is that it is gaining attention today because more and more bad things are happening in the API space. And the breaches that are happening in the API space are extremely troubling. Because it's not just in the case of a major mobile carrier, they didn't just lose your personal data again, which is a very common outcome of most breaches and exploits. They lost your entire bill payment history. They lost what plan you were subscribing to. They lost a tremendous amount of contextual information that is extremely important to the bad actors when they engage in social engineering and other types of hacks and breaches. And this is the kind of data that's being exposed in these API hacks. And I think that sadly, there's a certain cynical part of me as a former CISO that says, all we need is another news story and people will get much more motivated about API security. But frankly, after 30 or 40 years of security, we should be well beyond needing bad news, driving business decisions. We should be making decisions based upon what's important for the reduction of risk and threat within our environments. Very well said. And also when you're talking about that organizations need to be more kind of creative or curious about it, but whose responsibility is it? Who owns API security? Because when it becomes everybody's problem, actually it is nobody's problem. That is very, very true. And I'm gonna point to the study results on this particular question, because I think it's really telling about how fragmented the decision making and the responsibility assignment is right now in the enterprise. We see obviously a large percent of respondents, almost 20% that say it's the CISO's remit, right? But then we see an almost equal number, 17% or so, saying it belongs to CIOs and CTOs. And I think that's really interesting because we have a very specific security problem here, very specific risk and threat problem here. And yet there's one out of five respondents that are saying this is actually a technology problem bigger than just the CISO. We're also seeing assignment, it should belong to the line of business, which is also an interesting development because it's suggesting that developers that are associated with those particular business units should have the obligation for API security. So I think that this kind of fragmentation today of who should be assigned the responsibility for API security is also a representation of what problems that we have. Because we're still arguing who should be owning API security and the bad actors once again are not burdened with that problem. In fact, they like the idea that nobody knows who API security should be assigned to. Because if there's one thing that bad actors love is they love gaps and blind spots and processes and organizations and in structures and in frameworks. So I think current state today suggests nobody's sure. I will say definitively, and this is Richard's observation and opinion, I will say definitively that I believe that API security squarely belongs in the chief information security officers remit, but that does mean we need to change a lot of current state structures around application development and design, security architectures, frameworks and all of those types of other components of securing our enterprises. I don't think in a way that when we do see all those news to relate to security, mostly we hear about big companies also because they also generated a lot of page views. Nobody cares about a tiny company got compromised. I don't think that we might assume that the larger organization you are, the secure discussions move to the board rooms at that level, board level. Do you also see based on this report that it also depends on the size and nature of organizations, how they deal with security? Because as I said, most of the time when we look at these breaches, they are compromising some very, very critical information and there are some very, very large organizations there. Certainly the headline breaches with tens of millions of accounts or tens of millions of users or fraudulent account creation, those grab all of the headlines. There's an interesting component to this study as well that is showing that when we get into small and medium-sized enterprises, there's a repeat of the same argument that we've heard forever, which is, well, I'm a medium-sized enterprise and I don't have a large security organization and I don't have the same kind of money as the big guys to spend. And the reason why this is a flawed argument is those same companies never have the same defense when it comes to app dev.  And you want the benefits that you get from API development but you don't want the realities of the economic investments necessary to secure that plane, which is what I think nets to a flawed argument all the way around, right? You don't get to say, look, I wanna go out and buy a Ferrari and be a race car driver and then not to suffer the consequences of having a cool car that goes really, really fast but you don't know how to drive it. And that's what we're kind of seeing in the API space. Oh, look, this is very easy to create an API call. And really when we look in the small and medium sized enterprise space, the security consequences are actually accruing to the larger enterprises. So APIs today are the primary pathway for third party access for any number of organizations. So now you start to see the API threat and risk of a small company that is in the supply chain of a larger company now creating significant problems for that larger company. So like I said, these are patterns that we've seen before. We've seen third party risk issues, manifest in monolithic applications and data centers but it seems like we're also not applying our learned lessons from those times in these cases. So a lot of young and smaller companies using APIs as their primary method for integration or providing services commercialization to large enterprises. And now we have an even further expanded attack surface because these small companies say, I don't have the resources to be able to do security against these APIs. So again, tons of conflicts. Look, I think it's not an all bad news conversation. We're obviously seeing decisions and strategy and conceptualization going in the correct direction. The reality is in the API space, whether you're a large company or medium sized company, you need to be moving faster because the bad guys are moving at light speed. And if we're sitting around continuing to admire the problem and trying to figure out what strategies we're going to adopt to fix it, that's just more time that the bad guys have to do bad things. The worst thing with the bad guys versus good guys is that as a good guy, you have to be right 101% time. Bad guys have to be right only once and that's what the big difference is. Can you tell me that, when we look at the whole API security, it is complicated, depending on the perspective that you look at as you gave the analogy of Ferrari, I'm into steam racing, so I do know what you mean. You cannot just get into Ferrari and put on any other sports car and put your foot on the gas. It will be out of control, but most people don't even know that and they think that's how it works, which is that your security is complicated depending on how you look at it. It is overwhelming also, your teams are already doing so many things. A lot of things are moving into developers' pop line thanks to the shift left movement. Talk a bit about how it's traceable making it easier for these organizations so that irrespective of how they have seen so, not what a strategy they have, at least some of the critical workloads are kind of safe so that they can, their developer teams continue to focus on adding business value without getting overwhelmed or scared because security sometimes slow you down, it can stop you as well. So talk about the role you folks play in helping these organizations that you surveyed. Well, I'm going to start my response with something that I think might be a contentious statement, but I'm known for that in the industry, so I'll just say it. I think that using the rationalization and excuse that security is complex is a broken argument. And the reason is, is that everything in life is complex. Things in the analog are complex. If you don't believe so, take apart a Swiss watch that winds and try and put it back together again, right? Our relationships in our family are complicated. Having a family member in the hospital, there's complications. We can't use complicated as an excuse anymore. However, when we look at the solution side and to your point about what Traceable's doing about that, the truth is that we in the solutions industry for security have spent too much time building solutions that require expertise on the part of the security staff and professionals that are operating it. And what this causes is fatigue, right? So I produce tons of information and now you've got to sort through it as a security analyst to try and find, the single risk that is a needle within a needle within the needle of an eye of a needle in a haystack. And it becomes very, very difficult.  I don't like to talk about AI nowadays because it seems like it's a new thing and it's not. But we use AI to grind enormous amounts of data about these APIs and try and pinpoint the actual moment of threat or exploit or risk in a way that we can manifest it in with context to the security analyst. So they go, I know exactly what to do. Now I've got the warning, I've got the alert and I know what action I need to take. And the next step from that, which we also do at Traceable is to automate that, right? Now automation has been an interesting challenge because a lot of people say, I want something like runtime protect, but their internal processes are not yet to a point to be able to ingest an order or a command that says, this application is being attacked, shut it down right now. People are extremely worried in the business side of production impacts and customer impacts. And we haven't conditioned our systems to actually be able to capitalize on these automated capabilities, but we can see a world and you probably are having tons of conversations with other security providers where we can see a world where automation orchestration and the actions taken based upon the decisions generated from these new generation security solutions are going to be able to operate at the speed of the bad actors, which is our biggest issue today. The bad actors are faster, but being able to leverage technologies like AI and threat analytics and normative baseline analytics and runtime protect, all within the traceable suite are going to be the way to be able to get ahead of the bad actors with every single discovery of a potential exploit that we make in your environment. I want to talk about AI. Now let's look at AI from two different perspectives. I've been asking this question to all the security folks also. That one is AI for security and second is security for AI. A lot of companies which are running all these AI workloads, what does API security mean for them at the same time? What does these new generative AI technologies mean for API security? Let me start with AI protection first because it's actually a very common use case that we're asked about at traceable. And when we talk to large enterprise companies, the very first request that they're making of us is, is can you buy me enough time for me as an enterprise organization to figure out how I want to operationalize AI in my organization? And really what they're saying is, is help protect my corporate data from being exposed to public or open AI engines. Because there is no delete my data button, there is no regulation, there are no protections once your corporate data is exposed. And we saw this specifically in the Samsung hack that has drawn so much attention, which is an analyst decided that they wanted to, grind a faster spreadsheet and they exposed something like 5% of Samsung's corporate financial data to AI engines. So the great thing for us is all prompts, ingestion, outcomes, outputs in the AI space all right on APIs. And because of that reality, we have an unfair advantage in being able to help companies protect their data from being exposed externally. So that's job number one for us in the AI space. Now, when we look at it from a product standpoint, you know, again, you know, the froth and the excitement about AI has been heavily oriented towards large language models in the media of the last six, you know, to nine months. I again, contentious statement, large language models are actually the least interesting component of the AI space. You know, computational AI and, you know, things that are really advanced like planar geometry and, you know, all the different things that take a tremendous amount of work and effort for human beings to calculate are where AI is getting super interesting. And LLM AI is interesting, but only for specific use cases. So I would say that, you know, for the solution space, our orientation towards computational AI and how we leverage AI to continuously narrow the window of, you know, variables and information associated with one specific threat. And now take that one specific threat and multiply across billions and billions of calls, being able to have that type of laser point accuracy is only able to be achieved using AI. And that's what we're continuously building and expanding within our security solution, you know, and the traceable platform. And we're not unique in that. I think that if companies are not aggressively figuring out how to leverage AI to improve analytic results, risk reductions and automation, they're going to be left behind in the overall scheme of things.  Richard, thank you so much for taking time out today and walk us through this, you know, whole report.  So we hope that, you know, security and you're right about that. It is everything in life is complicated. And that's what I said, depending on who you talk to for a lot of folks driving a Ferrari and Lamborghinis or Bugatti is as easy as driving your Kia.  But, you know, it's good to see a company that is actually helping organizations in securing their workloads, their applications. And I would love to chat with you again, not only whenever you come up with new reports but also just to keep helping folks in securing their workloads. I really appreciate your time today and I would love to talk to you again soon. Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed myself and thank you so much Papno. And anytime, you know, my job is, you know, not just traceable but to be a resource when it comes to security in the marketplace. And I'm happy to have any conversations you'd like to have in the future.


Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in to the Art So Wonderful show. I'm Bruce Wilson, Executive Director. I have incredible guests for me today. We will talk with our guests in a few minutes, but I just want to give you some updates. So Art So Wonderful is creating our murals all around. Well, we're recreating, we redesigning them because 60% of the murals in Burlington are through Art So Wonderful. And we love our murals. You know, a lot of people love them. We also created Art So Wonderful Electric Boxes, which is called Art So Wonderful Electric Boxes, around primarily around Tindy County. And our partners do a lot as well. And those boxes, people love those electrical boxes that they see. And so my goal is to give artists an opportunity to showcase their talents in places that normally they were not as easy. You know, if you want to do some art on a mural, you'll probably be doing it working on one this week. And so Art So Wonderful have over 50 awards for doing the work we do. We just reopened our new art gallery at the University Mall. It's called Art So Wonderful Gallery and Performing Center. And so we're really happy about that. It's around 8,000 square feet and there's incredible art in there. Wow. And you know, I'm not an artist or a musician, but I love the art when I sit in there and just look all around the place, walk around, say, wow, look at this art, look at that art. So I'm inviting everyone to come to the Art So Wonderful Gallery and Performing Center in the University Mall next to Target. It's free to come in there.  Just want to get a taste of what Vermont artists have to offer. And so now let's go meet some of what I'm performing today. Let me just finish saying that. It's going to have like hip hop and rock shows and modern, you know, open portrait slams. And we're going to be, we are very, very fortunate to be able to have Vermont Youth Symphony Youth Orchestra and Association with Mark. So we're going to talk a lot about that now. So Mark, take it away, sir. How did you get involved in all this wonderful work? Oh, well, I moved to Vermont in July of 2020. Of course, it was a really interesting time. I remember I had my audition to be the music director of the Vermont Youth Orchestra Association only a few months before that in January of 2020. And that was my first time ever in New England. So this was like a brand new adventure, brand new scene for me. And I was walking down Church Street and just the marketplace was bustling and there was a huge snowstorm that blasted many, many inches of snow. Energy that was in the city and how the weather didn't stop anybody. And also I was just blown away by, you know, the LA Long Music Center in Colchester because it's a great space. Definitely. I just thought, oh my gosh, the Youth Orchestra were the home base. So, you know, my audition went really well. And it's sort of like if they offered me this, we've got to get over there. We've got to get to this scene. So the phone rang and fortunately I was offered the position as the music director. So I did that and then headed on down to Burlington in the summer. But of course the summer of 2020 was very... Oh God, COVID-19. Yeah, so we're walking down the street and it's just barren and empty and it looks like a ghost town. So it was sort of an interesting thing. Of course, like, you know, we had to reimagine how a Youth Orchestra was going to operate because it's very jarring when the thing that you do for a living and the thing that gives you so much purpose, like orchestra for me, music for me, just all of a sudden becomes taboo, right?  That is like so not cool during January or July of 2020. So we had to reimagine how we were doing things. Unfortunately, we did. We had that L.E. Long Music Center space. So nice. And, you know, it's a huge space. And so I said, well, I think we can take our orchestral musicians and we can split them into four different constituencies. And, you know, so they're in smaller groups. We can spread them out. We can have one with foot traffic. We can have them wear masks and then pull down their massive play. So we came up with protocols based on all of the studies that came out, you know, the big national studies field.  And that was fortunate. I thought, you know, there's a chance that we're not going to be able to meet. I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know what our kids are going to do. Our family's going to do. It's just like there's a whole lot of unknowns in our 70s. But, you know, we didn't have any COVID in the building the first year. We didn't have any cases. Oh, and then also spectacular. Because you're from, like, California or something, right? Yeah. And you're on L.A. and what, oh, yeah. So, as I know, it was a big shot from coming to me there to put a bag on Blizzard in Burlington, downtown on Church Street. I know, man. You know, people are out there. They're out there. In Burlington, they're out there with their shirts and flip-flops for them. They're like, yeah, we're out here.  You know, they lost their boy in the skiing. Probably one of the reasons why they went to St. Michael's Champlain College or UVM, you know, because of, you know, the skiing industries. Yeah, so close to the skiing industries and all of that sort of stuff. Yeah. So being from California, of course, it was a very different climate, very different way of life. And honestly, like, you know, I spent the first 30 years of my life there and didn't really see myself moving away. But you know, the life of a musician is kind of a nomadic one. And so, you know, I did my doctorate at Arizona State University. And so that was my first time really living outside of California. And what I found is that I really loved it. I loved the Phoenix area. I loved being in the large metropolitan area. And I loved also being, you know, close enough that I could commute back and forth and do things in California still.  So we like sort of kept that connection going.  It sort of got our feet wet with the whole, yeah, yeah, the whole like getting out and trying something new and stepping outside of your comfort zone, doing something new.  So I was applying for a whole lot of things. I got some professional assistant chips with some pre professional orchestras and professional orchestras and did that for a few years. We ended up moving to Cleveland where I had a college job. And I was really, really loving Cleveland. I had a job with a professional orchestra, as well as a college Lake Erie College in Lake County. And I really, really was enjoying it. But of course, then I saw the job description for the BYOA position. And I already had seven years of experience, you know, being the music director of youth orchestras under my belt. And it's just something about the energy with youth who are doing some of this music for the first time altogether. And it's just, just watching their faces when they discover love for all that stuff. And it's like revisiting exactly how I felt when I did those things the first time. And you just can't match that sort of feeling. No, you can't. You know, I'm a youth service. One of the things that I'm a youth service provider. And so I work with you from around this time around the state, you know, and wow, just to see them at work doing the things they do and who they are is amazing. I mean, it's like so, so awesome to me. And so, so all along that building, man, it's like an oval shape at the top, right? And so the sound in there, you know, I'll forget I was in there for years, years ago, I forget exactly how I was, you know, I think it was in there with St. Michael's or somebody was in there. But so how's the sound in that place first, you know, well, first of all, it's an amazing historic building, you know, like if the Buffalo soldiers used to train their horses in there, that was the old riding hall. And so the old riding hall, they would ride the horses in there, but then the stables were elsewhere. And so they would have events there and musical performances in the evenings. So I actually think it's pretty cool that now it's been retrofitted to still serve the same purpose, right? Like have musical performances. So that's pretty amazing. And the way that they did it is the back of the building is our performance hall. And we can seat up to 350 people in there. And the space for the stage is quite large as well. I mean, I've seen full orchestras and choirs on that stage before. So you can have a really, really big performance in there. And so the sound in there is actually really great. It's it's very live. It reverberates super, super well. It's very rich. You can hear the the you know, the violins and the high sounds super, super easily. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So we we enjoy having our performances in there. And I think we would do even more in there. But you know, we are this is a good problem to have. We are fortunate that more than 350 people want to come to most of our shows. It's too small. Yeah. So it's too small. So actually heading over to, you know, the Flynn, which is where like it's our home away from home. I know.  So so you're the music director and music conductor was both slash slash both, right? Yeah, yeah. So the way the VYOA is structured is we have three orchestras. So we have the Vermont Youth Orchestra and I conduct that. And then we have the Vermont Youth Philharmonia, which is also a full orchestra that has winds, brass strings and percussion. And then we have a third orchestra called the Vermont Youth Strings. And that one is just for strings. And for many of those musicians, that's their first time getting a chance to play in a group setting. Because, you know, most school programs in the state of Vermont and throughout the country, frankly, have school band programs. So you got winds and brass and percussion in there. But it's far less common to have strings in school programs. So we have some here in Chittenden County and elsewhere. But that's just fewer and farther between. And that's not a Vermont thing. That's a national thing. There are just less string programs. But there's a huge string culture here. There are lots of people from throughout the state that are playing instruments like violin and viola and cello and bass. And they're teaching it too. So these kids are learning from, you know, little first graders, they're learning how to play these instruments. And their first entry point to like actually play in a group setting amongst their peers is like in our group, the VYS, you know?  But what are the type of string instruments out there? Like, I know some, I think some funky looking was like, wow, what the heck is that?  Yeah, well, the ones that we have are the violin and then it's slightly larger because in the viola. And then the cello is the one, you know, between the legs. And then the one that you play standing up is the stand up bass or the double bass. And that one has four strings and it's the same, it's the same strings as on a violin but backwards. So they're like, you know, they're like the foundation, the lowest instrument that we have, right? And then, of course, you have their sort of electric cousins, right? You have like the electric bass and you have the guitar. And those are, you know, they belong to the family of plucked string instruments. But the ones that we typically deal with are the ones where you draw the bow across the string. So those are the bowed instruments. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, awesome. So I love, you know, I love it. And your woodwind instruments are, where are they? Which ones are, which ones? So the beginning, yeah, the beginning of the families, the primary instruments that we call them are the flute. Then we have the oboe and the clarinet and the bassoon. So most people have heard of the flute, most people have heard of the clarinet, right? That's you play with a mouthpiece and then you put a reed on it and then blow against that. And then that's what creates the vibration.  And those two instruments are called double reed instruments. So you have two reeds that are like sort of lassoed together and they vibrate against each other in the mouth. And so those double reeds are actually, you know, a lot less common. We call them our endangered instruments and we recruit them very aggressively. So you have the alto and tenor saxophones and their reed instruments as well. Yeah, yeah, those are single reed instruments like the clarinet. So you have the entire saxophone family, you've got the soprano sax, that's like the, you know, Kenny G, like the short one that's straight. Yeah, yeah. And then you've got the alto sax, which is probably the most common. And then tenor sax after that, that's probably the most common in jazz, I would say, like in combos and things like small jazz, usually like tenor saxes in there. Then you have the larger ones, the barry sax, you also have the bass sax. Yeah, that big one, wow. Yeah, yeah. That big one has like a little thing right in the middle. Yeah, the mouthpiece on it looks so small compared to how large the body is, you know. That's so funny. So the crazy thing is that for an orchestra, the saxophones have not sort of made their way into what we call the standard instrumentation.  There's always those five. But in the orchestra world, having a saxophone in a piece is very, very uncommon and very rare. So we actually like, there are still some pieces every once in a while where we'll need a saxophonist. And so I have some contacts with band directors in the area and I'll bring in the saxophone. But also some of our string players, like I said, they go to schools where they don't have an orchestra to play in. So they choose to play in band.  I'm like, you play saxophone? Like, yeah, I play in school. Yeah. So, you know, come I think about a year from now, I think I'll have a full saxophone section in my orchestra. It's pretty amazing. It is something. So you got brass, right? The brass is. Yeah. So we've got trumpets. We've got French horns. Oh, I love that sound. Yeah. Yeah. And then we've got trombones. And then in each of our top two orchestras, we have a tuba. Oh, tuba, something like that. Yeah. It's so interesting that, you know, I love that sound of from a tuba. Yeah. All those brass horns.  You know, and it's like, I don't know how heavy it is. It's probably a lot lighter today. But and they all made out of brass, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And so that sounds so, so how many key, how many keys it has? Like, so the French, well, all of them have what we call three valves, three primary valves. And then some of them have a fourth one as well, or a trigger that they play with their thumb. But yeah, we have piston brass instruments. That's like the trumpet and the tuba, for instance.  And that's like the how the French horns are played, right? So those are rotor instruments. So yeah, but they all basically function the same way. If you're pressing, if you're depressing one of the keys, it's making the tubing of the instrument longer or shorter, so you can play higher or lower notes. And that's how they get the full range of the instruments, because brass instruments used to be all much more simplistic, much more like, for instance, the trombone, which the trombone is just, it's got a slide. So you can make your lips buzz for high notes or low notes. And then to get the variability in the rest of the notes, you actually have to physically move your hand to make the slide longer or shorter to get higher or lower notes. So what's the difference between, I think, a trumpet and a cornet? Is it a trumpet? Yeah, so it both looks almost look alike. They do, they do. So the trumpet players, they can take usually their same mouthpiece and actually play a variety of different instruments. So there's the cornet, which is like, it has a slightly different sound. And also there's the flugelhorn. The flugelhorn is like used in jazz a lot, has a much mellower kind of sound. Sounds like almost a hybrid between the trumpet and like a French horn in terms of quality and character. So we call those, we call those doubles, when an instrumentalist will play an instrument that is very similar to their primary, that's called a double. So like a common one will be like the flute player. We'll also learn how to play the tiny little baby flute called the piccolo. And the clarinet player will learn how to play the giant clarinet called the bass clarinet. Yeah. And so we have trumpet players that also play flugelhorn, et cetera.  So do you have any like harp players harp? I know we've had some in in the past, but that's fewer and farther between to have a student performer. That's one of my dreams is that we would actually have harps available that we can rent to students and then have a harp teacher in the area that is giving them lessons at the LA Long Music Center. So that way, VYO and VYP will each have a harp player and they're constantly rotating through. I would love to have that. How many strings, you know, you do, I don't have many strings again, but you know, I don't have a lot of damn strings. Yeah, for sure. And when you play, you play the chords, but I say go.  So next time you see a harp, it'll be interesting for you to see, but actually there's footwork involved. So there's a whole bunch of pedals below them and they're pressing the pedals. And so when you press the pedal, it makes the string tighter. So you get a higher sound and then you can actually depress the pedal and bring it closer. And that makes it less tight and actually lowers the pitch. So they actually can get all the different kinds of notes, right? They can get all 12 pitches by pressing down, releasing all of those pedals. That sound is amazing.  What do they have to go through their mind?  It's like an army.  And they just look so, so good. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah.  That's funny that you use the, the army analogy, because I actually use that a lot. Like, so for string players, I've got, I've got, you know, 20 violins that are all playing the same part, right?  I have to teach them, there's so many of them, and they're all playing the same, the same notes at the same time. So they have to be much more precise and be militaristic and have all of that sort of infantry kind of mentality. And then you have the wins in the back, and they're more like the special ops. Every single one of them is playing apart by themselves. So every note they play is a solo. And so there's a lot of pressure on them actually, like in rehearsal, I might say, oh, could I hear you play that please? And then suddenly one person is playing for the entirety of the group, right? And that's, that's a hugely, you know, scary and intense situation for a lot of these kids, especially the first few times it happens. But, you know, for, for like a violinist, that's never, ever going to happen. I'm always going to have them play as a group. I'm not going to go, what we call down the line and hear them play individually. That's not, yeah, it's not, yeah, the sound you want to hear. This is not the sound you want. It should be probably, but I've seen, because I've been in a couple of your shows at the Flayin', and I've seen those, you've also conducted a section, they come up and conduct something, you know what I mean? They come, you know, how cool is that? So how did they get to be able to do that?  Yeah, yeah. Well, so first of all, that's a hugely humbling experience when I step off of the podium and walk away and the kids are able to do it without me. Wow. Wow, okay, they don't, they don't need me, you know, they're that skilled. Once they get to be, you know, with me in my orchestra, the level is so high for them. I mean, we're the, you know, the best youth orchestra in the region, right? And they get to a level where they can do so much by just using their ears and just listening to each other. And they understand the listening environment and they understand the skill of playing as a group so intimately that they don't need me. I can step off the podium and they're able to do it. So in those moments, it does become fun to pick students to go up and get the opportunity to conduct.  Right, right. Like, this is the full experience. And also like, oh, they're not reacting the way I want them to. Oh, it takes a while because it's getting 80 people to all do the same thing at the same time. It takes time. It's not instantaneous. So these kinds of little mechanisms are firing off in their brains when they get those opportunities. And it, I see them grow by leaps and bounds. So every year when we're preparing for our show in the Flynn in December that we call our orchestra Palooza, I try to find as many opportunities as I can to put kids up on the podium so that way they get that opportunity. And by the end of the year, you know, a couple kids from every section have had that opportunity and they play differently. They perceive it differently. They understand the bigger picture. So that's a useful thing that I like to do. And then in our orchestra Palooza concert, I actually give the baton to an audience member. Oh, I have to guess. Oh man, I know I think I've seen that. Yeah, to an audience member and they get the opportunity to conduct. Wow. And of course, you know, it's going to go great. Sometimes you get a well trained, well seasoned seasoned musician up there that knows what they're doing. And they have a fun time doing that. And other times you have people with no experience at all, then it's completely foreign to them. But the orchestra knows how to how to help them through it. Right. Oh, I've seen that at the Flynn under I think one of your last shows. But, um, wow, man, I was like sitting in the audience there and, um, and you guys had a full stage of artists performing artists, musicians. And, and you know, all of a sudden all around me, people just stood up in the audience. You know what I'm saying? I didn't even realize that they were there, bro. You never said all these musicians. I'm like, it's got to be like 50 of them just right here around me. And all of them are going to start performing right there in the audience on the stage, man. Man, you said you, you said 80, about 80 students or 80 musicians? Yeah, well, we've got, we've got 70 plus in the, in the top two orchestras. And then we have about 50 in the, in the, the string orchestra. And so when we put them all together at Orchestra Palooza, we've got almost 200 kids up there. And so it's a really big deal. I know. I love that so much. You know, I'm from Chicago. So I always think I love symphonic type of music. Yeah, for sure. Wow, man.  Yeah. So, so, um, so you must take them, rehearsals must be in, um, well, you got something, you got percussion. What are the, what is it? Percussions, you got bass? Yeah. So we also have percussion. So it stems from the timpani drums.  And then they have foot pedals that can adjust how high or low those drums are playing. So you can get different notes. And then of course we have all the different kinds of instruments like snare drum and bass and all the different kinds of percussion instruments that we have. And then we have our winds and our brass. And then we have our string section. So they all come together and rehearse together as one big orchestra on Sundays. All three orchestras rehearse on Sundays in the LA Long Music Center just at different times. And then sometimes what we'll do is we'll, uh, we'll have what we call sectionals where I'll say, all right, strings, you stay with me, but brass and percussion and winds, you're all going to go with coaches that, you know, professionals that live in the area that play those instruments. And they're going to help you with your parts and teach you more specifically about your instrument. And we have the rooms in our facility to be able to, to do that. So those sectionals, um, you know, the kid, it's always a lot, uh, more responsibility on the kids, right? Like suddenly, suddenly the focus is on your part. So those rehearsals are really intense, right? They're playing a lot. And, um, they're always scared for them. Like, Oh man, it's sectionals this week. Those are, those are scary days. But then, you know, I pull the kids at the end of the season and ask them what some of their favorite, uh, favorite memories of the season are. And they usually say, Oh, I loved sectional time because it was a focus on, on us. And I got to work with my section and it really challenged me and it pushed me. So I try to do that as much as we can, you know, uh, is get, get professionals in to really, really focus on those nitty gritty details. When I put them all back together and have the whole orchestra perform, all of a sudden it's like, Oh, they've grown by leaps and bounds thanks to those sectional times. Right, right. So, um, so, um, there is no vocals, is it? Or are there? Well, uh, it depends. Uh, usually for most of the music that we do, it does not have a vocal component, but sometimes we'll have a vocal soloist. And also, uh, like at our orchestra, Palooza concert in December, we're actually going to, um, uh, have the combined choirs from the high school programs in Chittenden County and they're going to play along with VYO. So it's going to be a big, and it's a piece from a video game that we're going to be doing too. It's going to be a really fun collaboration. I love, well, we have some, because, you know, we have, um, you know, we've done over 700 events in my organization. Aren't so wonderful. And, um, we, you know, we've done a lot of performances, you know, um, and, and we have a lot of artists.  Um, and we might have to talk about that somewhere down the line, you know. Yeah, for sure. I've seen some links to some of our artists, like Jordan Correll, who performed at Jazz Fest down there. Uh-huh. This last, recently, she's incredible. She actually lived in, um, California, too. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. I think it's sound of mine, I don't know. Yeah, we do a lot of, uh, collaborations in the, in the community and have a lot of community partners. I basically try to think through, um, through the lens of everything should be a community partnership. When we go to the Flynn, that's a community partnership. You know, when we come to arts, so wonderful. That's, you know, community partnership. And, uh, even like when I go and do school visits, I'm always in the schools as much as I can. And that's, that's a partnership. How can I help, you know, how can I use my resources to help the entire community? Because then we all grow. We all benefit. We think the same on that. I guess that's how we've been so successful by using our, um, community partners, you know, and, and sponsors. Like I always, always tell everybody like a sponsorship is a partnership and we gotta help you too. You know what I mean? Do, we gotta help. Yeah, exactly.  You know what I mean? It's like, what can we do to help you as well? You know what I mean? Yeah. And so we've been successful about being that way and it's, and it makes so much sense because like you said, one thing for sure is that, um, you get this connection with the community. It's a long, it's a lasting connection. You know what I mean? It's something because you always, you're both working, you're both, you're giving it back, you know what, what they might have done for you or, or, or opportunities you might have given to a youth who might, a scholarship you might have given to a youth to be a part of, um, VYO and, um, and one day they'll come back and like do some, you know, incredible for the organization. And I see that all the time with our organizations, like, yeah, for sure, is that, you know, we have youth advisory boards since, um, 2001. Yeah.   But, um, and so, and they want to help somebody too, you know what I mean, like we did them. So, so that's how, that's why we are popular as we are. Yeah.  And, um, and we didn't earn 50 awards for just, you know, over 50 awards for just, because, just because, you know, it's because we, we actually work with the community, you know. Totally. And we've done over 700 events around, primarily around the state, but mostly in Cheney County. You know, free outdoor events, parks events, and concerts, and all kind of cool events like the Bob Noir events with murals. We've done concerts, um, um, skate bar, skateboard park events. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, um, this is a regular, all kind of, you name it, basketball tournaments for over 15 years and Roosevelt Park, and just all kind of cool things. Just mainly because we want, I want to make sure that, um, people have, um, be able to do what you want to do in life, you know what I mean? Like, you know, like a lot of people couldn't, couldn't probably never could paint their own electrical box around, you know, or a mural, you know. Our murals are the best places in Vermont, you know what I mean?   Like, wow, you're sending a nice letter or something. Yeah, exactly.  You just, you know, need to be able to, um, need help to you know, keep it better, you know? Yeah.  Definitely. And so, um, and so we've been doing that. And so, um, you know, and, and, and I don't make the decision. I'm in charge of everything, but it's more of the people like my youth advisory board or people who we work with in the community, you know.  Yeah. Man. So how many, how many, so, um, November 8th is when you're going to perform at our, um, Vermont Youth Orchestra is going to perform at our Art Someone for Gallery and Performing Center. That is November 8th. Vermont Youth Symphony Orchestra is going to perform at, um, our Art Someone for Gallery and Performing Center located in the University Mall next to Targets. It's our 8,000 square feet. And so, uh, I'm so excited. So how many, so what's, so what's, what's going to happen? I knew you're going to come in and practice around six and, and I'm going to show around seven or whatever. So what, what's going to happen? What's going, I mean, you put families, right? Yeah. Yeah. We got, we got some sponsorship for families because we, they, they deserve to get a break instead of spending out a lot of money and we're going to, so I guess you want to use about 60, 60 people or whatever. Well, so, uh, one of the things that I find that helps young musicians to grow the, the, the fastest is to, um, put them into what we call chamber groups or smaller ensembles because orchestra is, is great. Uh, but everybody has one 80th of the responsibility pie, right? So you take the responsibility of every individual and it's divided equally amongst however many musicians you have on stage with in an orchestra, that's a lot. Right. However, if I put them in, like for instance, a string quartet, all of a sudden your slice of responsibility pie is a quarter of the pie. It's a lot more that you, uh, that rests upon you individually. So putting the kids into smaller groups is, uh, puts a lot more responsibility on them and also gives them the ability to grow even more. So when I take VO out into the community, I like to split them up into smaller groups. So on November 8th, what I'm hoping that we'll do is, uh, have a youth, uh, the VO split up into two groups. One will be a winds, brass and percussion ensemble.  Um, all of them will be in an ensemble together and we'll do probably a little bit more popular music, you know, stuff from Star Wars stuff from video games, things like that. Yeah. And then our string orchestra is going to perform as well. So we call that, we call that a string squad and, uh, that's all of the kids that want additional performance opportunities are going to sign up. And then we have a couple of rehearsals throughout the year. We get started in August and then we have like monthly sort of standing rehearsals to like, uh, keep that repertoire fresh and keep it in their fingers. And then we tour it around as often as we can. So we're going to come to art. So wonderful. We're going to play the, for Jen's opera house. We have a couple of opportunities throughout the year that we're going to do. That's going to be so nice. Yeah. My space hold over 300 people. And so, um, and you know, I'm just going to be excited to see all the parents there, you know, and one thing I love about our space and the reason why, um, we put that stage right where you told me to put it. Oh, good. Good. You put it where we talked? Yes. Right. And everybody was like, well, you put this in. Mark said, that's where the stage should go. And that's where I put it there. And so when you come in, it's, it's right where you say you put it. Oh, good. Good. I know. I know.  Probably more than anybody asked me why the stage is there. You know what I mean? Probably. But, um, Virginia opera house. Oh, I like that space. So, so, um, what you going to be doing there? Well, how big is that? You know, I forget if I've been in there, Virginia opera house, I think it's right downtown there, right? So, um, I forget. So what's the seating? I know the flint's got like 12, 1400 seats. Yeah, it's got like 1400 seats. Virginia's is smaller than the flint. I know that, but I can't remember off the top of my head exactly how big it is. But I do know that like a lot of these stages like very opera house and for gents, it's hard to fit the entirety of the VIO on stage. So it's actually good that we break down into smaller groups. And it makes it just a little bit more manageable. And it's a lot of fun for these kids to get the opportunity to play different types of music that we can't when I have everybody all together. It's a disservice to some of the kids that aren't involved if I do like during the school year, during my normal rehearsals, if I do music for a smaller ensemble because we have such a large group and they drive from all out all throughout the state. I've got kids that drive from, you know, across the across the way in Plattsburgh, New York. We've got kids coming all the way from, yeah, the bottom of the state, the northeast kingdom, like all over the place. That's so special because you know, that's where their passion is and that I'm to be a part of, you know, VIO is incredible. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I would drive from Valpero, my little canoe across the dam to get over there or whatever. Well, you know, it's a it's a large responsibility having or, you know, I'm captaining the ship of the artistic ship of the Vermont Youth Orchestra Association. And when I talk to educators throughout the state, they say, you know, you're called the Vermont Youth Orchestra Association. What are you doing to serve the entire community of Vermont? Because it's a it's a it's a tall order. So, you know, we also in addition to our orchestra programs, which are our auditioned opportunities, right? So those are things that like the students come in in May and play for me. And if they are at a certain threshold, then we accept them into our orchestra programs. But you know, what about what about opportunities to grow kids, no matter what their entry point is, what about eliminating barriers of entry, right? So what we do is we have trainer programs that that we start for kids that are non auditioned opportunities or what I like to call the y'all come opportunities. So we've got kids of all different ages and all different experiences that come in. And we have string orchestras from them. We have a percussion ensemble where they can learn how to read music and how to play the instruments for the first time with great technique. And also we've got we've got a string ensemble as well, we call presto.  And they're learning skills like how to follow a conductor, how to listen to the person next to you and how to make your bow go at the same time at the same speed, use the same amount. And all these sorts of skills are cultivated and taught and fostered, no matter what ability or age you are. Because that's something that I think is really important. There needs to be like if a student is interested in music, there needs to be a place where they can go. And no matter what their age or ability, there has to be an entry point for them. There has to be a way for them to get involved. And then once they're in, whatever they're doing, whatever group it is, whether it's auditioned or not, it has to be about excellence and getting the kids to a high level and making them feel good about the quality of what it is that they're presenting. So that's something that we're doing. And another thing we're trying to do is try to get out into other parts of the state. So some of our training programs, we're going to put them in the Northeast Kingdom. We have one in Franklin County that's launching next year where we're thinking about expanding down into Rutland, into other areas. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was just in there last month for the first time. It was amazing. Amazing space. They're still unique to how it was built, how it is, when they first opened that place up. You get the hardwood and floors. And that's funny. It's so cool though. Yeah, very amazing. Well, that's the thing is there's such a rich cultural tradition around performance spaces in Vermont. And I'm trying to figure out ways to get us there and for ways for us to do outreach and to show kids that no matter what your socioeconomic status is, no matter what your background is, no matter where you're located in the state, there's an entry point for you. There's a place where you can go and you can be successful.  So let me show you, you know, and I saw all of that is so amazing.  So we always need these things for youth to youth, you know, based on what their goals, dreams, aspirations are. And I know music has got to be one of their goals, dreams and aspirations. And to be able to perform for the Vermont Youth Orchestra, it's got to be one of the biggest things ever for anybody in this whole entire world. You know what I mean? I'm guaranteeing that.  But now is that made out of horse hair? I mean, is it, what is, what is the, what is the? Yeah, so typically it's horse hair that, yeah, and so there's like a little screw on the bottom that tightens it and loosens it. And so when it's tightened, and then also when it, when you put rosin on the bow, it's like a, like a tree sap. When you put that on the bow, then it catches on the string. So when you actually are drawing it across the string, it's catching, and that's what's making the string vibrate and come alive as it resonates through the rest of the instrument. So it comes like a little packet or something, because you got, you can't kind of count 500 strings horse hair. Yeah, usually you take it to, to a shop. Yeah, and then they'll, they'll, they'll, that's called a rehair.  Because it gets thinner and also some break off as you play. And so, and it doesn't, it doesn't work, it doesn't glide across the strings the same way, once it's broken in like that. So you need to have a rehair. Same with the strings, the strings have to get changed every once in a while, because they'll start sounding too thin and tinny. And so they need to get, get new strings. And, and it takes a while for those new strings to break in. They'll be playing and the strings will, will go out of tune very quickly. Like, oh, that doesn't sound right. And they'll have to stop and they'll have to retune. And then they'll play for a few minutes and then, oh, that doesn't sound right. It's, it's out of tune again. Right, right. But then they, as they learn how to, how to, you know, as they break in, they learn how to be strings that are on this instrument, right? Then it's, they start to sound even better and they keep their intonation for a lot longer, et cetera. Mark, so, once again, this is out, Mark Alpazar, music conductor, director for Vermont Youth Symphony, Youth Orchestra. I wonder if I'm going to call this symphony for some reason. Vermont Youth Orchestra. How incredible is that? So, um, I'm, I'm, so a lot of people don't know this, but I'm, I'm the governor appointed, I'm a commissioner for, human rights commissioner for the state of Vermont. So I'm, for the whole entire state, I'm a commissioner, and I'm a commissioner for, when you see school district, anti-racism, and I'm sitting on the advisory board for Greenmont, for entire, for justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion board and some other ones, you know, all the boards I sit on.  Because, you know, Vermont's being very unique, being a, now in the second white state of America, it's kind of really difficult for, even for like three people, three black people in the same room at the same time with me. It's like, damn, how big is that? You know, so, so it's a little, it's kind of, I know it's, you know, it's not, I'm gonna say difficult, but it's not, it's easy. But so, so what is your take on that? Well, so for student population, obviously, is a metric that we track very carefully. And so, when we actually, when we actually looked at our BIPOC representation in the orchestra, it was very good. It was a very, very high percentage, which was awesome. But we said, well, instead of resting on our laurels and saying, that's good enough, how can we reframe this? How can we take a look? And so what we did is we, we started taking things out of it, right? Like, well, what about if we keep our black and brown musicians in there, but pull out AAPI? Because we, on a national trend, see a lot of AAPI musicians throughout the orchestra field. So what if we take them out? Suddenly the picture looks a little bleaker. And then we say, all right, well, instead of saying, well, our diversity target should be whatever, whatever the BIPOC number is in the state of Vermont, what about if we did Chittenden County? Okay, suddenly that's a much larger number. And then what about if we did Burlington specifically? What about if we took out all the different ages and said 18 and younger, BIPOC, 18 and younger? So we kept aggressively making our metric that we're trying to meet even even steeper. So that way we're looking for pathways to be more inclusive and to make sure that we're reaching out to communities of color and making sure that we keep them enrolled in our orchestras.  Well, there's got to be better ways to see what they got. So that's, yeah, so that's how we're tackling it from the diversity standpoint. But then also there's the, in terms of inclusion, that falls on me and how I program music. So, of course, the majority of the orchestral tradition is all dead white guys. That's who wrote the music, right? Because it's stuff from it's your European tradition. So there is a lot of that. So it's skews towards that. But of course, here in America, there's been an orchestral tradition for hundreds of years now. And it unfortunately has excluded women. It has excluded people of color. And it's been very difficult to, you know, people have been marginalized throughout that composers have been marginalized, orchestral musicians have been marginalized. So what I need to do is take a look at the repertoire that's available to me and say, how can I expand what I'm including? How can I expand genre wise? So can I do something from hip hop? So my friend, Daniel Bernard Remain, I've done a couple of his hip hop studies. I've arranged them for orchestra and we've done some, you know, some hip hop for the orchestra. And some of the kids come up to me afterwards and go, I've never thought that I would get a chance to play this kind of music and I love this kind of music. And we're doing it in the orchestra. So there's an example of inclusion. So we're trying to do stuff like that. And then also film music, music from video games, things that really speak to the students today. And then also doing the homework.  And it's been it, we know it's great. We know that Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is great. It's a surefire way to sell tickets. And it's a surefire way for for the audience to enjoy it. So we should keep doing it. I do agree. I think that a lot of what we call our orchestral canon should continue to be played, of course. However, there's homework to be done, like I should be looking at composers from all different backgrounds, you know, and really taking a hard look at their their music and being as discriminating as I am to the works of Beethoven and finding those pieces that are really, really worthy of study and saying, you know what, I've put a lot of time and effort into this composer. And I know that this is a great piece of music. And I know that the audience is going to love it and then putting it out there and showing that that is the truth. So every year I try to include music from composers of all different backgrounds and really, really make sure that I'm not doing it because I'm checking a box, but I'm doing it because this is really actually good art music because I've put as much time as I did into my Beethoven symphony to let you know that this is a really, really good piece of music. Those Beethoven symphonies and waltz and all those people, they're incredible sounds. Man, those those instruments and just to be able to play that like so eloquently and just so beautifully and so wonderfully and all those it's something to hear. So I, you know, I would never want nobody to stop doing that. Yeah, exactly. You know how much work they put into that. That's right. You know those and there's a tradition of how to play it too, right?  I played them as a young musician and now I've conducted them all very, you know, many times. And so there's like a tradition that that I understand that I am able to impart very well. But at the same time, it's like, well, if I keep doing the same, the same repertoire, that's what's going to have the tradition baked into it. But if I expand my horizons and do lots of performances of say the black American composer William Grant Still, if I do a bunch of performances of his music, that'll become a part of my DNA as well. And that's what I can extend to my students. So like I just took them to Greece. I took the VYO to Greece. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Greece. So, you know, I wanted to do a lot of the really amazing music that has existed for, you know, for a long rich tradition. We did a couple of movements from a piece by Gustav Holst called The Planets. So we did Mars and Jupiter, which are like some of the most celebrated pieces in the orchestra repertoire. The kids loved it. They thought it was wonderful. The audiences went crazy in Greece. They loved it. But also, speaking of William Grant Still, we did a piece about the called Song of the Rivermen, which is about, you know, the the ferrying boat, ferrying the boats across the Mississippi River. And it like had this wonderful American sound. And to take that to Greece and have the opportunity to play it for them and have an American orchestra that understands it so innately, right?  And so that was really special. And then, of course, we did, we did music, the dancing music from Zorba, the Greek. And, you know, the first two notes, and all of a sudden, the audience is just erupted. They know that music. It's part of their DNA, part of their culture. It's universal, man. Yeah, yeah. So they were they were clapping along. And that was the first time that my musicians had really seen that kind of a visceral reaction to orchestra music, right? Like where people were jumping up and clapping and applauding and, and, you know, being a part of the performance almost as an audience member. And that was like a new experience for these kids, right? Like, whoa. And we were in these big outdoor amphitheaters. And, you know, hundreds of people that had come to see them as part of these festivals. And it was just it was an it was an amazing experience. Definitely. That's so incredible.  Well, I invite you all to head over to vyo.org. That's our website. And there you can find our schedule of all of the VYO concerts, as well as the VYP and the VYS concerts and our season schedule. We have one in October, we have one in our orchestra Palooza in December, and then we have one in February at the Flynn and in May at the Flynn. And then we'll have lots of other additional opportunities. Also, if you're a performer yourself and would like to get involved, you can find information on how to audition for our performances and for our groups on our website as well. And then also if you're a community member that would like to play, you can play with the VYO towards the end of the year. We actually have open rehearsals. And we have an opportunity for you to come and play with us. So no matter what your age, no matter what your background, no matter what your experience, we have a place for you at VYO. So visit vyo.org to find some more. No doubt about it. Thanks, Mark. And the next thing I'm just going to say, I'm so excited that VYO is going to be performing at Art Soul One for Gallery and Performing Center located in the University Mall next to Targets on November 8th. And it's going to be like started at 7 p.m. When you hear all about it, it's going to be on Art Soul One for social media. Yeah, it's on our social media. Awesome. So thank you, sir. Yeah, thank you for being on our show. Yeah, of course. Thank you for doing it. Have a good day. Thank you too.