and still where everyone went higher right right um and this probably what should have happened in you know in my opinion um or a lot of it like yeah i i don't see this new addition helping them where where there's hope with sylvaneth uh from my perspective i don't think beast of chaos has the same hope maybe i'm wrong or missing something but hoping for that book really soon yeah i mean i think that's yeah this there's not much to say here there is some talk that they're going to get a new book soon i hope that's true i think there's so much potential in this army it's such a cool army yeah um like it just has such character and flavor and that's exactly what i was saying at the beginning of the show jordan you hit it like if we had moved everything else in the game up like 18 on average and then this army went up four percent on average right and we held a lot of things sort of stable then okay all of a sudden like yeah that we we could have done it maybe with points right because we could have pushed everybody else up this would have been a great opportunity to not push up as much right yeah yeah that wildfire torus at 110 that might not be too bad if you're able to double tap it if it's still on the board yeah it depends on what it's going to do now like if it keeps the same functionality which i assume it will with a cost like 110 probably yeah yeah it's pretty good yeah i mean my my final summary was the zangor is a bright spot it's interesting um so that's kind of cool i guess they're hit hard by the changes to battle shock and by the way losing their cool god battalions this is the only army in the game that lost war scroll battalions that i cared about this is it so i want them to get a new book tomorrow to re-instantiate those yeah some way yeah um the buffs they got from broken realms weren't really on the level they were weak as all get out right mm so yeah those are strange yeah i mean beasts need love that's that's that's this i can't think of anywhere else to say it sure okay uh blades of corn uh currently in a tough place and it only got tougher uh they had an average gain of nine percent so just slightly above average mm they basically had you know sort of points moves across the board none of them uh were like most of them weren't too incredibly big big but they're here like blood warriors went up 30 which is yeah hilarious okay oh yeah uh like that's very funny that you think like blood warriors okay sure why not why let's yeah okay sure i haven't seen them on a table and god knows how long sure it's been forever skull reapers went up 25 which is like a lot that's a lot a lot uh putting putting skull reapers at a 205 point unit is uh it's choice um and you know the the i guess like i look at it i'm like oh wrath mongers only went up 15 i guess that's good you know that's what i'm sitting over here feeling like like i guess wrath mongers are pretty good um shout out to chorus coal going down 15 points uh terry tate corn linebacker coming in from the from the outside with the eight inch pylon i just assume he shows up in every army now because one of the one of the better deals rolling around so okay yeah yeah he is interesting now uh his eight inch pylon lets him dodge a lot of it's hard to redeploy away from him even and and he can jump around on the shell right he can actually go in engage something and then you can charge them you know i mean like or whatever you know i'm saying corgis piles in during combat sorry so it's not like you could you have to charge me later turn but the point is he sure right uh yeah i mean there was nothing here i looked at and went well this is going to help them yeah what there's just didn't go too much yeah sure i mean they didn't uh you know i think scar brand staying the same is really strong i think that's one of your stronger choices in the whole army right now scar brand is is pretty dangerous he can actually have his flying back now you can restore his wings if you cast levitate on him oh sure you can have a spellcaster here we go take a drink you can because you can give your heroes now the arcane tome like it doesn't have a corn prohibition so you can have spell casting corn heroes which is funny you know so you can give give him back his wings so there's there's something uh you know i mean bloodthirsters your right didn't go up that much we're gonna talk about some other greater demons later that did go up a lot more yeah um so you know yeah it's like i don't know what we were hoping to accomplish with corn here but i can't see it happening like is there a bright spot here the bright spot is not listed here i'm right it's the it's the greatest hero in the game okay and it was what was carrying corn all of last year archeon archeon sure yeah so i got up so little yeah so it's it's a shout out to constantinos our friend uh paint for the pink god amazing corn player this guy will melt your brain with the level of detail that he gets into in terms of his tactics with corn and the combos that he finds yeah he's been running i mean he was early on the archeon with rippers of vengeance yeah and those those builds really one of the first that i'd ever heard of running it and he sent me a little thesis i'll like seven pages on corn and it's it's incredible but obviously we don't we need to do almost an entire show on corn to do to do a justice but i mean that was one of his high little takeaways is essentially you start and end with archeon right with this arm i agree uh which is cool yeah cool but unfortunate for the rest of faction right like you'd love to see it be better than just that sure tied to one character that's not even you know natively in the book yeah yeah i mean it's like do you just take archeon and uh scar brand and then figure out what else is playing in your army from there like take some flesh hounds or something so they can run around like is that your is that your move yeah i i just you know like a lot of people were running yeah flesh hounds tyrants of blood of course it's gone now just a big deal uh reapers you're only going to get to do one double activation right you reduce the number of prayers that you can do now i mean that was that was huge with like blood boils popping off multiple blood boils that was scary yeah there are a lot of the judgments now may not be around anymore you know as often anymore there's more ways to get those off the board yep they took a lot of hits yeah the i mean potentially i could see still blood thirsters being you know getting the benefit of the hero monsters there are four up save not the three up saved getting it out to two up but any other three potentially they got roar turn off save whatever that you know that's good get plus one a hit is nice uh scar brand potentially two's and two's to really turn him on with one of his axes so yeah but constantino's list was just gotta give you guys a sense here for folks yeah i think he had double war shrine i mean he had a lot of slaves darkness sure it was basically yeah arch on so yeah double war shrine like another army we're going to talk about later the key is don't play very much corn play a lot of slaves darkness yeah exactly it was mostly blood essentially all that he had from corn was a slaughter priest with a skullsharp mantle blood sacrifice a battle line three by ten blood reverse to die you know chaff up keep your keep your shrines you know screened off a little bit two by five chaos night he's really big on chaos nights sure i think they're a good shout in three point out now yeah two more shrines and arch on but yeah we'll have to let's find a way maybe we can link to to his full write up because i think folks would find it fascinating it's it's really in depth uh overview on all of the different things that you can do with arch on now and it is which we'll get into it probably a little bit more later but it i mean he was already i think the best model in the game 2.0 bar none well other than maybe marathi and then you know lore seeker is interesting but it's it's our kind of marathi my opinion it's top two yeah but yeah i mean he's at a whole new level now they're the best god heroes arch on i would park on his number three in my in my if we're just gonna like if we did a rank the hero show it'd be it'd go lore seeker marathi arch on okay fair enough yeah but yeah i mean he was practically unkillable in 2.0 and it's even more so now like yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean my my sort of summary is they were hit hard by things like coherency and a lot of the fundamental rules changes but there is some potential many of the core units the army are on 32 mil bases which just sucks like you have more orders but worse you have you know all these things where they're just on like big bases for no reason right they're very sensitive to the new mechanics such as redeploy and unleash hell because they they they want to walk up and punch you and armies that are basically i'm going to walk up and punch you it's it's relevant right right um you know blood tide is still what it is that their their blood tide move is is also impacted by the things we've mentioned already in the movement phase uh because it is a normal move or whatever right so it's affected by all those things we just mentioned um you know what's an essential way that you can get around some you know like charge in the hero charge in the hero phase that's pretty good maybe you can only shallow on them maybe f a q pending sure right like yes it is a charge phase command ability as it says in six point whatever seven point whatever but it doesn't uh but it doesn't specifically say you can only use in the charge phase i will be actually to see what ruling on that is right um you know bloodthirsters are pretty solid monster heroes but they remain fragile but you know they're also not super expensive uh and as i guess corgis cold mortal realm's lying backer i'm uh i'm back at him i'm serious i love this guy i love an eight inch pilot in the new current game again good luck redeploying away from me good luck you know you're never going to unleash hell on me and you're never going to redeploy away from me i will catch you right right just uh jordan you have any thoughts on corn i had a few more things we can move on yeah not really i just yeah similarly they're just struggle with a lot of you know and shooting only getting better and not having any of their own yeah yeah so uh joe is one of the tit she's another player if i said your name correctly joe i probably didn't but you're probably used to that with americans trying to pronounce your last name uh yeah he has very similar thoughts you know a lot of priests took a hit uh i thought we might see more msu with blood tide maybe they'll benefit a little bit more if there's more msu on the table more blood tide so they can get um yeah i thought you know bloodthirsters might see still see some play let's see some of the other winners constantinos yeah he mentioned corgis i think he mentioned the lord on juggy yeah he thought that was a thought that was a pretty good pick the flesh hands got cheaper yeah uh scarred blood wrath you know he thought that was still a pretty good pick he's kind of mixed on on the on the bloodthirsters demon prince i heard alex tubs on age of the gash talk about this the other day demon prince with that corn demon prince with the incredible command you combine that with redeploy oh my god that thing was already amazing and now yeah corn demon prince best demon prince no questions done yeah like it's just that's that's an easy that's easy he's top of the pile by a mile yeah i don't even think they changed the points on the demon prince they did not he is the same prince we'll talk about when we get to slaves of darkness yeah all right let's do disciples of zinch let's get into it uh big points hits to one of the kings of the ring uh there's some big old changes here so karak acolytes as we all know dominant force of all the top tables you just you never saw a top list without hordes of karak acolytes uh up 25 you know completely reasonable there uh the the changeling of the table my friend kody plates i'm a couple of yeah at our last event sure and he was like what what the hell is going on with this nonsense yeah the fate skimmer of course another another auto include in your list not the fate master the fate skimmer sure up 40 i can completely seems reasonable uh the uh kairos up 35 the lord of change up 40 big old number their uh burning chariot shooting way up exalted flamers up 40 and flamers themselves up 35 points now 175 by the way where they probably belong that's like what they would say a lot of these i'm not sure i agree with i legitimately think flamers are worth 175 yes they die super easy but they also kill anything they point at right like they are just click click debt uh so like sorry that that kind of ranged power projection that they have is so strong it's like oh okay if i don't kill those things and i activate i just die yeah again i i do worry about i mean like thinking about hero monsters potentially the the higher baseline if you'd better save baseline sure if you'd have a way to yeah roar that is if you're just shooting at minus one rent at critical targets sure they still kept their ability to go to minus two you know right sorry minus one for them minus two for the exalted for the exalted yeah so that's that's good i i do wonder if that if they're gonna feel that yeah in terms of the if it if it's true that you know generally saves are going up in the game because we're gonna have more hero monsters etc rocking around but i mean i don't know i i'm not i'm still not too thrilled about charging into an unleash hell from six flamers i'll just that's fair that's probably fair yeah like i just i feel like they're at the right point value now like yeah they're a super fragile glass cannon unit that's how glass cannons work they do an incredible amount of damage and if you touch them they die like that's called a glass cannon that's what it is right like yeah that's why we all took cannons in six and seventh and eighth edition for years because sure if any five morons went and attacked your cannon your cannon was dead but if the cannon was able to just free fire it would just blow everything away right like yeah that's that's how it works um so you know just a lot like they had a big average gain 21 percent but again they were one of the three biggest bats yeah right yep so compared to sorry compared to someone like seraphon where we were saying it wasn't quite enough this is like the hammer you kind of expect for the the big bats right when they when they get points increases the data hit pretty hard 20 percent average is is really high do you think this is what would you guys rate this like you know compared to the seraphon where we say it wasn't maybe you know heavy enough in the right spots yeah do you think this was at this is too heavy in the wrong spots a lot of the things I agree with like I think kairos at 435 is still completely square okay I just do like kairos is a power piece he'll win you one game in five just by existing okay um like flamers as I've said I think are in the right place I don't know what's going on with pink horrors or what they're going to change clearly they're changing something the unit size issue yeah like are they just going to let the unit cap thing roll where now it's like one pink becomes one blue becomes one brim is that going to be the new world so there are only 30 wounds instead of 50 wounds or whatever you know if if that's the change of the world we're going to live in where you don't go over your starting size so hence you know one pink becomes one blue becomes one brim um fine then okay like I I really want to know what are happening with pink horrors I know there is the one change with the with the new rules where um they they no longer duplicate when they run to battle shock um because battle unless that gets answered that that's not true right like like that's based on sort of a a split apart reading of what slain means which you know it's I'm not saying it's wrong I'm just like it seems like I could read it either way as my point yeah maybe true maybe not they could easily affect you around that so yeah I don't and it's not like I was really worried about the splitting off of battle shock most of time I mean most of the time they split because you were like okay you you had to like get up all of your possible hammer power and then go charge them and hope you could deal 50 wounds right yeah uh can we still use the bail wind vortex no it's gone bail wind is gone and good riddance uh but it is gone uh the let's see yeah I mean I feel like this is there's just stuff in this army that got hit with big changes that I'm like whoa what why right like that should have been like tenors or 15ers or fibers and not 40 and 25 on some of that stuff you know uh like the fate master a staple to every list now admittedly one of his core mechanics on his scroll but suddenly doesn't work anymore right because he used to be able to get plus two to save but now that's capped but he was like a staple of every list because he would just be mr like it's him plus change us but this army took a hit by losing changes let's be honest with you right okay yep and so I just feel like a lot of the ancillary stuff that never got played anyways that honestly I'd like to see more is the stuff they should have been softer with right and and just really hit the offenders like again we know what was winning games in zeech and by the way one thing that was winning games in zeech isn't even on this table because he's already been mentioned once right uh like the host arcane um uh archie on build still intact yeah right that yeah if I were trying like trying to build again build for a tournament that's where I would look right now yeah I mean yeah we would see a lot of archie on and kairos and host arcanum power pairing and yeah that that's generally still intact uh you you'll get a little bit less but yeah oh I guess it's actually changed those you're you're gonna it's going to be a wash so yeah uh yeah so again as one of our local guys Cody his thoughts uh he emphasized zangors you know he thought maybe we're gonna see them a little bit more he's been running some zangors impacts of 20 I believe they have a two inch reach no I might be wrong on that there another great blade that you would run with minus and rent it's only one one inch reach and they're on 32 so that's a bit of an issue but yeah all the zangor stuff in this army got hit harder than I would have imagined honestly yeah like okay skyfires are sort of the scary ones right because they're the shooters so it's like okay they're probably gonna be plus 20 and the regular enlightened which are going to suffer from the coherency challenge uh would go up less nope it's exactly the opposite the enlightened on disc went up 20 and the skyfires went up 10 and I'm like okay I don't what huh right yeah absolutely so yeah he he thought that maybe there'd be ways you could buff zangors to get them to be interesting at that 195 value uh with 20 wounds and in a packed in a minimum size uh yeah screamers they went up 20 they didn't really need to go up I mean you know obviously they were in host arcana you'd see a lot of them yeah you should get to seven six of them for free yeah exactly yeah so whatever I did one question on kairos so in terms of like miscasting you roll the double ones can you guys know if end if he can oracle to change one of those in the sequencing should be able to yeah because it happens his his replacements happen at the right timing I believe that he can switch okay top it over okay so he could stop a miscast I believe that means he could also cause a miscast exactly yeah that was going to be the next point yeah so here you go kair here you go uh lord croak or sure yeah somebody's on their first cast in a critical round and they roll one one like one into six I'm pretty sure kairos can step in and flip the die back to a one and then force them into a miscast I'm pretty sure that's the timing on that right because the nature of when replacements happen versus rerolls or whatever that sounds like fun that does that's great I will say that sounds like a very zinch move like that is I have zero problem with that that feels like a super zinchy thing like oh right when you were gonna rely you're gonna rely on your magic against me zinch the changer of the ways the lord of magic and sorcery like nah dog uh uh no so the I think the consummoner yeah consummoner went out 15 255 that seems a little nuts I mean it was not seeing any play in zinch now that you can only do five pinks at at that so that that was strange it's an army without a lot of hero monsters so you've got you got lord of change and kairos so that could be a bit of an issue uh I do wonder if guild of summoners is worth looking at again we're popping out more free lords yeah yeah well free free but you know what I'm saying for sure yeah yeah you could probably yeah if you're leaning into the cast you probably get two in a game certainly one in the game but potentially two in a game I think there's a plus one cast with that uh definitely I mean I think they're gonna be leaning heavily into the new and the spells uh I suspect that's going to be a big play yeah max max three and still ignoring their own three right right those will continue to not see play yeah I've seen some of eyes a little bit but yeah that seems a little quite excessive burning sigil and demonic some of that some of that I mean unless the burning sigil suddenly does something very different that is a clinical points value I've actually had a buddy who took burning sigil multiple times against me and it never did anything ever I was like he would cast these like do you want to spell this no no I don't yeah but unless I mean yeah I wouldn't be too surprised if somebody figures out some nice builds outside of Archeon who's Arcanum but that's that to me that just looks like the obvious one like if you want to play competitive zange but yeah they they got a big hit it felt like maybe a little you said it perfectly vents a little bit too much in the wrong areas right yeah uh so they took a really big hit yeah I mean that's my sum like lots their key tech pieces are really really expensive now something is going on with pink horrors still some powerful tools and heroes like kairos and then you know Archeon can still slide in here and the grand crutch of the ever enablement will continue to be a threat in like host Arcanum yeah this is like my favorite meme here I found for zinge which is zinge and zinge stopping zinge's plans in the in the predator meme so I really enjoyed that one that's very much zinge they really don't want you playing individual blues and brims yeah no kidding they jack the points on those crazy like oh okay got it so we just take pinks then yeah yeah so yeah all right nurgle uh blight sking blight king spam took a hit but I think the army did really well overall um their average gain looks higher than it should like because of a couple weird percentages um that jumped up there but honestly they like they had a lot of things go down epidemias went down the harbinger of decay went down lord of afflictions went down slobby bio piper and the scrivener went down with their new refreshed war scrolls right um like these are all things that are in the conversation at least and they all went down right now of course that the the the story we have to mention is that the future blight kings went up 25 they're no longer 140 they're still 165 they're still a great deal in the fact that there are what 21 wounds for for 165 points on a pretty solid frame running around in fives they're not paying any attention to new coherency you generally took them in fives anyways so fine now they can't get their rend anymore which hurts especially in the new edition of higher saves so we do need to of course take that into account and then the great unclean one went up 30 you know from 320 to 350 I think he's still fine as a big hero monster you know he's he's quite survivable he can do a lot of things uh I think he's okay I think things like um the morbid ex and or guts and those kinds of things they probably are going to would need to still go down farther to be super interesting but they're they're in the conversation in an interesting way okay because like so let's take morbid ex okay morbid ex twice born who went down five points he's now like 235 right so he's a 12 wound hero with a three up save okay that magical three up save base there you go and he is a monster yeah all right uh now he does have a pretty not great wound charts okay got the old one yeah it's not fantastic but at the same time 235 or 220 those kind of cheap monster heroes I haven't really seen many people talk about them they are all the all the I don't know what you call those blowab rot spawn who also went down 10 like the they have a name I don't remember what it is MAGA for it's thank you somebody courage to put it in there but they're kind of interesting now because they are cheap monster heroes yep like they can go do work they all count as five now on objectives they have hero abilities and monster abilities you know their rules are decent it's I'm just saying maybe they're maybe they'll show up I don't know I think they could be in the conversation now I really do Jordan what do you any any thoughts on nergal what are your thoughts um well so two of our guys in our local in our play group play nergal and and one of them is huge on the demons after this because like you like you said those two new heroes who had great abilities coming down yeah and you know and play bears exactly same the same yeah and their their abilities are abilities not command abilities right so they don't there's no interference so they're like you know like seraphon they still did all their synergies because they come from different places so that they can be super tanky and like they were already you know bringing back in summoning models now you add in rally to a unit of 30 played bears like sure that those guys are tough to shift and they'll sit around so I think I think you know demons is definitely a huge winner here especially in contrast to the to the light games going going up in points yeah agreed yeah totally agreed I was looking at yeah the one of the other ones or god's demon spew it's got a pretty awesome command ability festern rod using the hero phase so that's great you know always looking for commands you can use in the hero phase sure quote-unquote stack across phases pick a friendly nergal unit within 14 of him reroll failed wound rolls that's got the fail it's got the qualifier but still reroll failed wound rolls for that unit to your next hero phase sure it's pretty pretty hot command ability it's not bad it's not bad at all and that's what I'm saying and that dude's getting everything he's getting all the new toys yeah right yeah and again is he is he also on a three up I think like two or three up and one is on a four up I think yeah he's on a three up 12 wounds yeah yeah nice so you know like there's there's stonks here I really think so nergal's been sort of low-key doing well for a long time when when the Owen Jackson uh ran his fat middle tournament any band of the top six armies on tts by performance yeah nergal was in the top six right I mean that should tell you something uh again I I agree I think the demon side has some stonks we didn't mention puscoil blightlords but those guys are all now also counting as two uh you know plague drones and blightlords both being five or seven wounds or whatever yeah so they're all counting as two on a thing uh and I love I love five wound stuff that is in twos now this is my new favorite unit size so I'm I'm up on dracothean guard I can't wait to see their new scroll I think I cannot wait son can't wait for my scaven riding dracothean guard just wait for that and because two goes to four you know we're still using the great coherency rules I'll burn I'll burn like I could see one unit of those at four then you still got three reinforcement points to use on your plague bearers or something like that right to take a unit to 30 and another unit to 20 or whatever right whatever that seems fine like I'm in we've got some action here right those drop the blightlords let's see where are they the puscoil blightlords yeah they dropped down five they were 190 they're 185 now 185 okay nice yeah I solid and and remember those dudes can become battle lines so you could take them to six but I wouldn't like that's bad yeah sure but the point is they can also be battle line which is cool yeah and the lord of afflictions who has to be the general to make them battle line also good also went down mm-hmm yep yeah I know paul was a big fan he would run the lord of afflictions yeah what about glockin uh yeah he is he went up 15 he's still allyable for if you'd ever want to do that for whatever reason but like all right street 95 he's fine he's a big scary you know monster hero he didn't go up very much it's fine yeah six tags fours and twos minus two two damage you potentially get that the threes and twos okay yeah it's got a fair number of tech profiles uh we've got a lot of abilities yeah I don't look at it is this gonna have a way to get plus one attack I think add one to win characteristic on models oh win characteristic okay yeah I mean it is a shame about blackings losing the minus one rent that that just feels like something we're gonna see added in with the battle tone and that's the rumor is they're gonna get the first battle tone outside of storm cast and war clans so presumably we'll be able to see yeah blackings war scroll minus one rent right there if I was an urgal honestly if I was an urgal player right now I'd be like please don't give me a battle tone I don't want it the risk is too high you might get slanished like just stick with what you got this is fine like I'm fine keep your battle tone I don't need it I don't want it I'm good I got options here for days yeah I've been the past six years with deep pin right yeah exactly now we're good dog broken rums was perfect all you did was take some of my stuff and fix it up a little bit you you was great tooled out of the shop I got a fancy new turtle I got some shark options I'm happy over here thanks yeah I don't I don't need a new car it works fine right yeah this this list stinks of a army that you could really do some creative things with and you know great and clean ones are going to be hot I think you know even more difficult to kill they didn't go up much sure yeah it seems like yeah there's some really innovative lists you could come up with here it's a compete in in 3.0 yeah yeah it's interesting uh yeah so my answer was you know nurgle lost their blights king blight king spam but you can still take a good heap of them and they remain a good value they should come out ahead even or ahead after the battalion tax is removed like if you take out the battalions they tended to buy and look at their points my guess is they're in the positive they might be putting more stuff on the table actually depending on how heavy you like that you leaned into blight kings right right difference there many years had a good move down in points and they're relatively untouched by core rule changes for the most part like they've got lots of penalties against shooting and that's great like yeah okay I charge into you and you can only shell on me with neg 3 to hit like all right have a good time right enjoy your hitting on sixes you you have 40k overwatch when you shoot a beat with only shell all right right so yeah uh okay skaven ohy this table needs to let's move on let's uh let's keep going yeah let's talk skaven no we don't need to oh I see I see the joke I'm with you now get ready my friends for the age of the horn rat is upon you all uh flee from your homes in terror uh oh I love this army now it's so much fun now okay they have a they did have a larger than average points increase but it does nothing but hide the true potential of this army there is nothing I care about that went up on this chart okay your biggest hit is your storm friends your storm friends went up 55 points to 315 yeah well well deserved it is because they are monsters in this new edition they count as two models each they can go battle line and skryer you can take them in nines again oh and oh my god with like because now you can be like plus one to hit spark like go more more work power like it is the spell plus the command ability plus the spark and you are just don't don't do it Benjamin you're better than this don't do it watch as everything dies uh yeah it's amazing uh I've run two games of skaven so far right look I'm just gonna go for a while here guys so tuck in I'm sorry I have a lot of thoughts okay uh somebody said they're surprised about uh the storm burman I'm not mad about storm burman storm burman only went up 10 points yes they cap at 30 now instead of 40 they're fine it's fine it's no issue two inch yeah two inch reach yeah exactly 25 bill base two inch reach like yes they're on 30 which means it's a lot harder to preserve the plus one wound the key escape and add a lot of bonuses that was like it's plus one to hit at 20 and plus one to get wound at 30 so like it's suddenly you it's very hard to maintain that plus one to wound on storm burman I don't really care you can hide them back and then uh you know uh no hold them over or something and and pull the long charge or whatever if people want to focus in on my storm burman I literally don't care like that you there are scarier things in this army you're not shooting at and I am happy about it we are primed with some of the greatest heroes in this edition the vermin lords are pure stonks they are magic incarnate they are double casters that can very easily get multiple bonuses to cast they are hero monsters with a built-in five up word save what's your stupid amulet for that's for peasants peasants need to take the amulet we have that automatically okay most of our heroes have a five up after save and re-rolling their save too and re-rolling the save the vermin lord warpsier who still broadcasts his incredible hero you know his incredible massive uh bubble of battle shock immunity like you know battle shock got to be more of a threat not to us we got so many ways to be immune to battle shock i'm immune to battle shock for days son we got enough of you to battle shock i might just accidentally make your army immune to battle shock by existing uh like vermin lords are incredible and yes of course things like the corruptor if you have flaming weapons like boy does he turn on by simply moving him to plus two damage the vermin lord warpsier is also a command point farm because he's master clan he gets every command point back he spends on a five up he also on a three up generate to an extra command point on a six he generates an extra t three the little plague priest who is an 85 prayer machine uh he's just like you take him you take curse and you go he runs right behind your rats right behind like he just hides right behind your clan rats and yeah he'll occasionally dig them for like d3 mortals for being near them and it's like go ahead charge me come on do it charge my clan rats which by the way can be in 60s now oh sweet how much we love you uh i took 60 clan rats in one of my games uh on on saturday i played scaven and giants that was my two games on saturday and 60 clan rats was amazing i took like 40 wounds to the unit and i was like okay whatever it's fine hello right and like i could have rallied him and i was like nah not even worth it i got other stuff to do was that a very old rolling in for a very old and did 39 damage to my clan right i mean it was incredible like go a lot less that's a hard hit it then she evaporated and uh nobody cared like it was just it was so easy your mortal wounds are everywhere you have you are an unleash hell machine this army is a porcupine army warp fire throwers thank wool warp lightning cannons with a warlock nearby like yeah come on charge me i got lots of things that don't roll to hit how many mortal wounds do you want on the charge because i got them all i got them all i had thank will right behind my clan rats just being like come on yeah come in just moving that will up like let's do it bring it in other than sentinels it's the ultimate business in the front part in the back three point army right now a hundred percent because i just had like i literally had him and then a warp fire throw on each side yeah i was like what are you gonna do what are you gonna charge me with what wants to die uh i mean and that's not even counting i haven't even used storm friends yet i just didn't even bother yet and i still felt the power uh special shout out here for giant rats going down to six packs for 40 points love it love it back in eighth edition we had a thing we called rat darts rat darts were the ultimate chaff you would throw rat darts in front of your army and it would chaff your big units they had to go through your rat dart then they had to go through your 50 slaves and then they could finally get to your your actual units rat darts are back baby six for 40 if i need to charge somebody guess who's going in first to absorb the unleash hell why it's six rats i'm not using them like i don't care that they can't spread out because they're six like i gotta make a little six packer of them um fine fine they're just extra free super cheap chaff that all that just charges it and absorbs unleash hell is like yep go ahead what are they what are they on what base size 25 25 second yep they are six little dudes on a 25 40 points they just easily get in there and absorb unleashes if i can get at the melee unit obviously they don't fly they're not perfect they're not eighth let's not be overstated but it's great uh so i'm all about them like uh rat ogres by the way are still stalks and still real i don't know if anybody's had a chance to play rat ogre since the changes in broken realms but they are incredible now um uh you can do so much with them they're they're so much fun and by the way they only rat ogres basically didn't go up they they went up five points that's it so they're still uh two for 95 which the fact that you can now have six wound four up save rat ogres two for 95 points means you get 12 wounds for every 95 points that's pretty good they still take buffs well and have rend and do two damage oh yeah jordan has has ridge been playing any rat ogres yeah so he just ran four um okay and they are you know stood toe to toe with turnoff with science which is saying a lot yeah well yeah in fact i backed out of that one because i yeah but it's a real man rat ogres will will do the dirty business uh you have an offensive profile and a defensive profile and they they live up to their names they get in there and they take buffs so well so very well because they can easily get plus one to hit just all the time without a command ability just they added some dumb dumb following them around yeah they're a perfect pairing with curse if you curse a unit and then swing in with the six attacking rat ogres it's just like oh okay that unit's just super dead like super duper a million times dead right um yeah they're i i love this army now by the way you can take this army in one drop or four drop varieties extremely easy it fits perfectly into a one drop or four drop profile whichever way you want to go they love extra artifacts we love love extra artifacts because we have lots of good ones that we want to take i don't want to tell you man it stonks in ratland like i'm in so what was your list vents the other night oh god uh so the most recent list i had thank well a vermin lord warp seer 60 clans 20 clans 10 storm vermin uh warp fire thrower two i don't really think it was two uh warp lightning cannon and an archwork or an basic bombity or something like that okay and then a plague priest with curse yeah that's quite a bit going on that's that's pretty good it was a lot i'm probably missing something by the way but yeah i mean it's it's a lot it did the work oh and a claw lord there was a basic claw lord in there too because i always take more it's because again claw is just super super duper tough um uh because they can they just get verminous valor for free which is a command rate they don't have to be the general that lets them four up pat mortal wound pass to to rats so he just stood next to 60 rats and was like i'm immortal what yeah nice and staven is like such a deep book it's like the you know list builders dream right if you just have so many good options uh you just see and it's a great thing right you're gonna see so many varied builds on the table uh so it's i'm super excited to see more staven again yeah i mean i took i went with my warp lightning cannon i used it once to unleash hell overcharged it did seven wounds to myself so it's still alive and then turned around and shot the the the war song guy yeah yeah and rolled the one so i just did 12 mortals to him just wow and he made his exact four ups so he was he took six wounds so he was at one and then i just shot him with a with literally a rat a return and war blamed him to death i didn't even charge him wow there's a reason in in my day i'm so staven still left i'd turn first just to shoot it the warp lightning cannon with such turnoff it's like i can't let that thing shoot at me sure yeah that was a great play yeah it's a nightmare uh yeah so i'm a hard a hard on this army stonks hard core stonks uh they had points increases but this was likely merited uh this army wasn't performing well and selling some help but i think it's just i think the the fundamentals got so strong under them the ground got yeah they are mixed arms lots of powerful monsel heroes and they capitalize in every phase of this thing yeah they can still have incredible board control because they have that you can have these 60 wound units that can still just spread out 30 long comfortable yeah right right and and like if you arc that that can still all be in an immune to battle shock bubble in multiple ways mm-hmm right i mean it's it it's great like this is a it is a list builder's dream it's a like it just it plays to the tactics and sure you can also just take nine storm fiends and 420 plays it like that's true too right right they used to not rely on battalions right these to be pretty high drop yeah there's all they were always pretty high drop yeah if you would occasionally like i would sometimes play around with the verminous one which is sort of your battle line battalion plus the claw lord mm-hmm okay but yeah for the most part you were battalion i mean that yeah that could be a big deal yeah if you if what you're saying is true do solid one drops or four drops yeah that's that's pretty great yeah they they really struck me as having gotten one of the biggest bumps out of anybody just in the hands of good players who know what they're doing good list they're going to be pretty terrifying it seems yeah yeah yeah i shouts to rich i really enjoy him by the way on your he plays yeah he says he says plus one attack from the claw lord as well great because gave an allegiance gives plus one to hit so yep absolutely like it's like the claw lord's a great little guy again he's just a little plus one attack engine and remember clan rats getting plus one attack with a little plague priest falling behind to go curse uh gets real scary when suddenly you've got basic dum-dums who can still retreat and charge just run in with way too many attacks that they should have on 25 mil bases and just start triggering six is immortal wound right it feels good because i pretty sure that's what skinks did forever to win and now we can do it too nonsense uh so speaking of armies that have gotten really good or even better that's right so moving on uh slaves to darkness it's a great time to fall to the dark guys is it ever uh so average gain seven percent uh not too bad uh but again actually that's sort of lying because a lot of that was in places that didn't matter oh we lost jordan okay hopefully he was like no i cannot handle this this heresy i must leave okay because like a lot of their points are actually getting pushed up by dumb stuff like fedras all scryer and the you know the god smore hunt and nonsense like that you know chaos warriors went up to 10 they didn't stick in fives so you could you can go up to 30 and have a 60 wound pack at 600 points but it is doable and they are a hell of an anvil now if you do max them out because now they have built-in re-roll saves uh they test two reinforcement points to get into 30 for 60 wounds they have a built-in five up mortal wound like you know halberd and shields are hand weapons and shields they have a built-in five up against mortals and now they can spark that plus one to save and suddenly they're on three every rolling real easy real easy yeah so good yeah it's been i mean a bit of that you usually see them in 15 or five not tens but yeah i mean given how much better they've gotten in terms of if you get you know avoid getting your commands turned off yeah that's that's an amazing anvil i was happy to see marauders go down to tens they went up a little it's justified completely that's fine like marauders what happened needed to happen yeah cast knights i still think are great plus 10 points up is is perfectly fine for adjustments cast knights are straight killers um the cast chariot going down 15 i absolutely love so i've been hearing about these chaos chariots what's the what's the deal do they do like d3 mortals impact no they have the they have they're better they do an improved ogre charge you roll a number of dice equal to the charge roll and every five up is a mortal wound oh nice okay yeah they're good and they're again they count as battle lines they're they're paying off your battle line they have a nice mortal wound impact hit hey jordan's back there we go hey buddy well we can't hear you can't hear you if you switched your headset or something like that you may need to or you may need to unmute yourself oh there you go good okay yeah it was just you said your thing flip down yep yeah power flittered for a moment so it turned everything off it's all right we were just talking about how slaves of darkness is truly amazing in this new world and yeah i mean we can't bury the headline here archion only went up 30 points or whatever which is ridiculous so i i think he probably should like okay real talk he should be 950 points yeah he feels like 950 a thousand honestly 100 yes he should be 950 points yeah it's crazy that negosh is more expensive than him that doesn't that does not chart in my brain like don't be wrong negosh is real powerful and he's a scary dude and he can do some good stuff and he can he can like you know supercharge all his all his balls and then charge into people and do like 93 mortal wounds and that's super funny right right but archion just wins games he is a brute force monster that's just like oh i will fight your entire enemy army yeah and i am basically unkillable incredibly yeah i mean both corn z inch or even in slaves with the host of them shows yeah amazing i mean there's so many z inch you can stack i believe you can stack the four up ignore spells one his base one from z inch uh you still got the activation tricks double activated corn easy two up re-rolling save you can still do stacking to offset wren so he'll be out of two up a lot of the times often re-rolling saves and and damage output has gone up i mean it's just like across the board uh 3d3 heal i think is what you can do on him now i'm easy 2d3 heal but i believe corn can do 3d3 heal i'm not sure about slave to darkness but anyway yeah it's just wild what you can do with this guy now yeah yeah i agree like slaves came out great like great really good now by the way the fact we didn't even mention it but bellicor went down 20 points oh my god i didn't know like in what universe what oh god he did well he did he's even better now uh like he wasn't he was like he's so good he was a game winner on his own and now he's even cheaper so yeah uh i mean we might as well lean into flaming weapons bellicor there you go if he can take the spells if he can take a lure if you need characters end up being gonna take a lure sure you're sure you're having a new work yeah you know just like most of the by the way there's there's another there's like there's so much to talk about this army it's crazy how good this is i should also point out here that the kitty cat went down five kitty cat is a monster so kitty cat can roar uh kitty cat can mortar wound impact kitty cat can do work and kitty cat still makes you fight last and kitty cat has a neg to a massive neg to the bravery aura if he if kitty cat is rolling around with archion oh yeah there are significant like crushing bravery penalties okay and like stack arcane bolts like yeah arcane bolt at start of the battle shock phase on top of that whip them off yeah neg for bravery is uh good it's super good in a world where you can only make one person one one unit battle shock immune with command ability uh kitty cat is solid i've been repping that mind stealer sphinx since it released and cat llama is where it's at uh love it love me the cat llama the one thing we haven't mentioned yet that we should absolutely talk about idolaters oh they're in now is their time ride forth chariot lord all of the chariots got cheaper the basic chariot went down 15 the gorby's chariot went down 130 you use that as your frame to make an idolator lord okay that's what turns into your idolator lord the idolator lord is a priest that has bonuses and idolaters to cast you have base prayers now you the problem one of the big problems the dollars was you didn't have artifacts do you do now right so like slaves just is all over the place here let's just move to this because i've got my fun meme here where i've got the idolator lord leading his army to war as we can clearly see in this colorized recreation artist's rendition of what it looks like and what it feels like to play idolaters now uh yeah idolar songs the way up chariots in general have a lot of potential cast warriors can be an incredibly strong anvil and this has the tools to take advantage of all the new rules on the relative cheap with great bonuses especially corn i would point out the corn aura is re-roll hit rolls of one and plus one to wound which is the combination of maybe like two of the greatest bonuses in the world in the new setting yeah because then you're uh then you're a command ability spark away from plus one to hit plus one to win re-roll once so one question i got from one of the local guys travis he's been running nights at the empty throne baron guard would they count as two models each yes and then if you take a unit of six cast metamorphosis to turn them into monsters do you then get the five models each bonus i don't know yeah that's kind of a weird a weird edge case one yeah i mean they certainly count as two models each of the normals because they're right that's sure yeah that's true yeah i can answer the first part here what happens when you make that unit gain the monster gain the monster keyboard do they become five each maybe i think they're going yeah that's an evidence of fact he also noted cabalist are getting better and that was another one i heard tub's talking about on age of age in the gas show yeah you know cogs uh what cabalist is getting a plus one cast plus two cast thank you plus one to plus three depending on how many three that's right yeah yeah so two cast each with cogs potentially uh although i think cogs might be cast on a five so it's not necessarily always going to be up at all times because you know you can now dispel in both hero phases thank god to try to turn off some of these things so yeah try to dispel it in the enemy hero phase that way they can't use it that phase but yeah nope lost him again uh yeah man i don't you know where does uh we could talk for 20 minutes about sleep to darkness i really think this army is so much better i mean they were gonna do shows by the way where we deep dive into everything like we'll do yeah revisited revisited we're gonna we're gonna revisit all the factions in in gloria's detail in the coming months don't worry yeah as i'm sure will like coach you'll be doing that as well i'm sure and like the content will be out there welcome back again jordan no it's iron golem's real saves anything with real saves in this game now i mean in general but yeah especially now they're like iron golems are so good in the new world again yeah like they went up five point in ravagers where you can just start summoning on iron golems right you got more cp and ravagers now so you're doing more than just summoning yeah furies are interesting again a leash hell trying to shut down the leash hell yep um yeah that's a really good chat with with the springs jordan any other thoughts we were just saying we could talk forever best lives of darkness i mean i really think this army is is going to be really strong yeah i so much so much here right yeah you guys said like an arty on obviously being a centerpiece is like he's arty on he can do it he can do it all yeah you can just hit your pony to that one model and you'll be good yeah yeah yeah it's absolutely true uh so some questions in the chat i saw somebody say uh uh dismay does does these increased points across the board make it easier to get to an army yeah a little bit i think so um i think that i hate the new enhancement rules in general i think they're uh poorly written and confusing as i'll get out and we have like 80 million f aq's waiting on them it's the only part of the rewritten rules i don't like i think sections like one through 25 are basically pure gold with not that many big issues and then i think they got to enhancements they just they just it's there's so many things that were like well if you can do this and if the f aq comes up this way and wait do i do i do i get my spell automatically and then have to pick another one do i get another one for free how does it work like where do i get the pick it's so confusing to try to explain to a new player like it's an utter nightmare uh i i just feel like the entire enhancement section honestly legit needs to be rewritten it's it's not good yeah and otherwise just platinumly good release uh it is the one sort of scratch it's it's beautiful diamond with this big inclusion or inclusion sorry coming in yeah and then at said lancer swords for knights always lances some people will tell you that you should have swords because you can grind better those people are wrong and uh and you either win or you die like you charge and you win that's what you do okay that's how we win in this in this world playing a lot against legion of the first prince by the way we haven't mentioned that yet that's a solid sub faction i think very strong yeah i mean like so much is yeah there's just like we've named every sub faction and said it's got game by the way we didn't even talk about the corn demon prince and how he didn't go up at all it has like the best commandability game and just spoilers also has game because it could block line of sight all over the place for shooting yeah so it's just like yeah it's it's all over the place so many tools yes yeah uh i am stoked for my slaves to darkness army is looking better and better so that's good i'm excited about it uh all right cool beans well gentlemen it had to happen it's been a good run here we are uh slanesh never has an army been more meta i hope you like pain um so slanesh and his new book which came out at the same time as doc and then was insulted by having points costs that were so far out of the bounds of what like you look at doc you look at slanesh never has there been a more clear uh reflection of of inequity and so we all thought oh don't worry it's fine slanesh is just pointed for three dot oh yeah good to go good to go everybody else is going to be hitting their points increases and be angry and we'll be sailing in and in this new world we'll be okay narrator they were not okay um i think like the most obvious illustration is just looking at bliss bar of archers growing up 20 points from 160 to 180 yes when saddinals who should have been 160 to begin with are only 150 right right right uh let's talk positive okay positive stuff here we go we're gonna be positive for a moment the hell striders went down i'm legit happy about this they were vastly overpriced at 150 i think hell striders are great they're fast they're good uh like chargers to absorb an unleash hell they're good chaff they're on like you know nice long cavalry bases they're still in fives they can spread out i really think they're excellent chaff because they are very fast do you go spears or hell scourges it's completely irrelevant it does not matter okay but traditionally like hell scourges are better because they have a three inch reach and can cause a negative to hit on the charge right so like you know that's good um but but literally i do not care you could take either one you want um they're they're mostly there to die mostly okay um so that is a positive like i was honestly legit happy to see these guys come down on points okay um they uh the seeker's coming down 10 is interesting they probably need to come down a little more since they can't fill any kind of battle line role but i think seekers are interesting i think they're kind of underused and again they actually can do quite a lot of attacks can trigger quite a lot of things now they they can't you can't do 20 blocks of them anymore basically they now cap it 10 um but they're okay they're okay um everything else is bad yeah this army is paying the sins of its summoning i wish can i just have crappy summoning please i'd like to actually play the army that i'm paying for not the potential future army that i might summon onto the table assuming i don't just get my teeth kicked completely in yeah okay when every one of my units is made of paper against any force with teeth you just get exploded yeah now there are fundamental things in the game that change that are positive or so much like more msu is generally good because it's more chances to harvest more depravity from more units true true statement okay but ultimately this army is costed as though you're just summoning in 400 points every round that's why it's costed like this and look i'm not gonna say that's impossible it is entirely possible that you summon in 30 daemonettes or a key for a secrets every round are those things actually worth 400 points no no they are not not in any world or way or shape or form or universe it is simply not true okay uh like glutos going up to four this army contains two out of the three highest single model point increases oh yeah okay in shellaxi and the keeper yeah the uh doc warband is the third well yeah i like i'm not like the warband oh sure because there's two more bands shot up a similarly crazy amount right but again those were like i'm not the warbands are silly that's why i said sure model right or a single true single units right catch it like the the more great than the and the one of the other is the eyes of the nine which both of which were like weirdly yeah like whatever nobody thought more great than 80 was the correct points right um i mean she'll actually add for i mean 310 i had no interest in playing her i ran right now she's 405 we better be getting a massive war scroll rewrite on her you're out of your mind for her at 405 get out of here okay uh that is insane to me insane um um this army got the points increase that i think all armies should have got across the board like this hits the average is a 15 percent increase basically right if everybody else in the game had went up this kind of amount if this was where the average is i'd be like well that's a shame it still probably wasn't due because we were overcosted but okay you know like i'd be fine but this army like does it have some potential play sure sure absolutely can you win games yes points aren't everything it's not a foregone conclusion you lose like i've seen people talking about twin souls who only went up 15 and have a two inch reach they can reach over their own bases which is nice so you can like they actually fit fairly nicely in the new coherency rules so good stuff um you know as i mentioned helsriders like some of the seeker blade like the blade bringers on chariots are still okay and most of them are heroes that are under the the caps they can all still get like lookouts or and stuff like that they fit into the the sub leader section very easily which is nice you know they're all they're all good sort of functioning in that role dexessa and senessa are fine it's hilarious to me again that the ten one was more expensive than the nine one one that is comical the nine one one is like way better definitely but okay sure um i mean you take dexess like as you're trying to get a bonus command point every round that's what she's there for that's what she does she gives you a bonus command point every round so cool um so like you know whatever it can this army still play yes will you still summon potentially a lot of stuff yeah probably like if you were just looking at the points you could say yeah over the game i summon 1200 points yeah like that is a pretty modal outcome of playing this army okay but you might summon 1200 points and still easily lose did you have that much summoning in your games you got a lot of games then i did you know i've played a lot of games with senesh sense yeah was it was it not generally that much i've heard somebody say that you always either end up at eight or 12 depravity after the first round and i tend to agree with that number my experiences are very similar yeah i think maybe list labs i think smorgan might have said that that you always end up at either eight or 12 i don't remember um and like that has proven pretty true to me you know keep in mind i ran pretty offensive builds because i was trying to win the game not depravity farm sure yeah so like if i hit units i tended to kill units and killing units doesn't get me anything right like i ran so that like part of the things that happened to me here and i have to admit this like i think this army can still play i'm just gonna go to my summation because whatever okay i've got the stop stop he's already dead meme on this of course because there was no choice i mean sonesh is already overpriced and many units are just comical um it is hilarious to me that a keeper of secrets and lord croak are basically the same price that is a good joke okay i don't know what universe you look at those two scrolls and go yep these are basically the same keeper got worse he can only do his command once and of course he can't even do it to himself way worse it's shockingly worse like their average damage like look look folks their average damage is seven it's so sad the keeper of secrets average damage is seven now can they sometimes spike off and you do like a bunch of mortal wounds because you got one extra on the hit with the claws and then you pop two sixes sure that can happen like yeah that is possible i'm not banking a battle plan on that right like yeah it can happen but like the way you play this army now is in this very finesse very like careful playing a bunch of wounds off a bunch of units style that folds instantly against death by the way just pointing that out that you've actually accomplished nothing doing that against most death armies yeah and the uh you have to just sort of finesse it and play towards summoning like that's what you do like that is the path to victory for this army that's it it has one play style a sort of extremely finesse stay away engage as little as possible plink as many wounds as you can fight only where absolutely necessary summon summon summon and try to then overwhelm them yeah i'm saying and like that sounds terrible and not the like i got into slanette because i wanted to take keepers of secrets that went over and smashed because they're a super cool elegant beautiful terrifying demon that is meant to go over there and like they're supposed to be these paragons of combat right that like match bloodthirsters pound for pound and which i mean that's i'm not saying much um given what bloodthirsters are but they need to be rewritten too um like if the keeper i would love to see a keeper rewritten to be 420 points i want the keeper to be 420 points that's the correct point value for all greater demons is around 400 points the problem is they need scrolls that match that yeah like greater demons shouldn't be cheap uh shouldn't be like cheap stuff that you're like going oh am i taking the lord on karkidrack or the greater demon sure that's not that's not how this choice should go yeah jordan do you have any thoughts on slanesh or i'm just honestly i i was thinking when when the new line came out with all the new mortal stuff i was like so into them i love all the new models new design i was like i'm gonna start this army and every couple months that just my desire to start that army just goes down and down down yeah which is unfortunate right like at the end of the day we all want to play with cool toys and have fun doing cool things and it's just sad to see a beautiful army range especially with new models and and stuff continue to suffer unfortunately um you know door wise whether it's relevant or not like yeah yeah i don't i don't know i i guess the only thing i'd i'd be curious of uh i guess you you both play with slanesh is like characters like sigvald and you know some of the others didn't see much change do you see much opportunity and kind of going a different route with some of them yeah i think sigvald's got play because he's got that built-in plus three to charge you can take him in lurid haze he is very tough now lurid haze has a built-in plus one to save command ability and there's also the plus one command ability that's generic in the game so you actually can take two units and give him plus one to save in lurid haze because it's two different command abilities obviously um or you could even single stack it if you were really trying if you were up against like crazy rend right um lurid haze lets you ambush so siggy can come in pretty effectively like he's he's legit tough now and he heals himself very easily uh i think he's a right spot he's still probably slightly overcosted at 265 for an honest answer he should probably be more like 240 um i really do believe that like he's just he is still just a six wound dude you know like it's easy to have a couple of rolls go bad and he just drops dead yeah i agree he's definitely playable particularly grading on the curve of this of this list but yeah the curve of this army he's an a plus uh this is like this is like when you're in a class where everybody flunked the test and you got a c and suddenly you're a rock star on that curve right i'd say the mask is up there with him like i would start with if i'm writing a list i would start with sigmold and the mask as my first two heroes and helstriders like it's sigmold helstriders helstriders um probably one of the blade bringer uh chariot lords i was thinking yeah blade bringer exalted like you know i don't know if gludos is still worth or not maybe as 475 is a lot for him yeah but he's a he's a good centerpiece you know like you want to start with a keeper on the table but it's really hard to start with a keeper on the table now so you kind of just have to summon keepers and you wouldn't get that much yeah i can't see a keeper in a list yeah i'd be tempted by samessa as a fourth hero sure you're probably gonna take one or both of the twins honestly instead of any instead of any keeper secrets which is great that i have six keepers of secrets i'm very excited yeah but yeah i i mean i don't know i haven't really heard a good explanation of what what happened with this i know every playtester that i've heard talk about this they're like you know they they all we all know this was a complete screw up but i mean we don't have to get into it i mean everybody knows this was a screw up i i just wish they would gut the entire summoning and and and replace it with something weaker like legit yeah because it's we're having to balance this entire army around a really swingy powerful summoning mechanic and it's just it's never going to be where you want it to be if you actually just want to play the army not also play that army and the phantom army you might summon yeah right yeah yeah and i've like a friend try this he sent me one of our local guys a weird list you know leaning into the the summoning of like grand and clean one and some archers and it's just all this all this craziness that you could do but i mean that's not silanesh in my mind like you're playing a little mini game to try to get some it yeah it's just you can play you can play the little depravity mini game or you can build for like really i think that this army can be competitive and the way to play is this as i said very cagey finesse style play that maxes uh you know the sort of maxes um uh depravity farming yeah right and summons and summons and summons and just like starts dropping 30 blocks of daemonettes on the table over and over and over again so you're just kind of swarming right yep yep that sounds pretty oh okay it's just not it's not the style i want to play if it appeals to you i'm excited that this army now works for you but you know it's a sure so yeah death death all right boys we got 30 we got 30 minutes to hit our limit i know and my friend death i mean we will move quicker now because it's not actually a lot of death yeah we got the two big uh grand lancestot yeah absolutely okay so flesh eater courts only went up three percent on average um like still a potent threat though the fundamentals have shifted against them so this is another one of those armies like the gather the the gulking on terrageist you know went up 25 points okay whatever who cares yeah you know um like the the this army none of this stuff right on this page matters it just doesn't matter it's fine it barely moved in any meaningful way it's the fundamentals they are a super hard hitting melee army but right they had lower than average points increases but they are going to suffer due to the core changes lack of multiple triggered abilities on the gulking on terrageist the single command ability during the phase redeploy unleash hell coherency on their 50 millimeter infant heavy infantry that was all one inch reach right like like the list of fundamentals that turned against them is long yeah i'm pretty worried about this army i think isn't your brother playing this army oh yeah and i've played a bunch too yeah it's actually that thinking it's like you can pile in an attack twice with one unit like don't give we all know you know two years ago fat was dominant with with their abilities but like you know the past year they've you know been had you know a couple of good runs here and there but largely they just can't compete in the new meta for the current meta so to see these hits directly you know hurt them is is yeah like you said it's concerning for sure yeah both these guys and slanesh which is ironic because they basically came out right around the same time right yeah had the command abilities that you wanted to use multiple times the combat phase across multiple units right not like an idk style you know spin it to win it right it was a this unit does it and this unit does it and this unit does it and you would usually build your command points for that moment when you needed to push right and that just got shut off yeah uh smash bat still good he didn't really need command abilities most of his stuff was non-command ability bonuses honestly and uh now we can give himself like you know stuff so he's good he's fine yeah i think as it lasts sorry as it lasts like this is again prototypical last cannon army i just feel like they're not gonna have the output that they need anymore sure and they're not yeah they're not really moving the needle in terms of the save stacking because they're at a base what four up for five most of stuff yeah yeah so that's that's not getting the job done i don't think there's a lot of mortal wound ignoring either uh yeah i i think they've probably gone down quite a bit in some of the fundamentals yeah it's just it's like the points didn't matter fundamentals have turned against them it's going to be a rough road yeah so yeah well maybe we're going to get that so what what what's the name of their their main dudes well the the the gash the karyan king karyan king yeah i'm ever going to get a karyan king in a new book here this year we'll see uh night haunt uh the ghosts likely need some help to truly compete uh night haunt you know they're they're didn't really see a lot of points increases the most notable one would be the 20 point increase on hex rates because that's a big increase on a unit that was 130 and could tend to show up in multiples yeah most of us is pretty nominal so that are also being impacted by the one inch reach or the the reinforced units yep yep concurrency yeah hugely they have like four units on 32s with one inch reach that right let's just drop off yeah chain rasp now max size 30 chain rest max size 30 yep sort of table down a little here yeah because i i played two by 40 a few weekends ago in the ricanors new sub faction and they were yeah pretty spicy but if you're you know now if you're only having to chew through 30 of them versus 40 that's going to be harder to to have them alive but uh what they don't have any monsters really they've got a mourn goal so they're not really basically that yeah we don't even know what the just like legitimately we don't know the disposition of any of the the four troll monsters right i mean they might they might not who knows yeah yeah definitely this army needs a new book needs to to be to reflect 3.0 yeah a lot of the fundamentals are so out of date now yeah yeah i mean they have good rules like helpful things positive things a lot of their they have some good rules that they got replaced in broken realms so that's going to help right they they got sort of battalion things pulled into sort of sub faction rules which is great you mentioned already the right norwin bits yeah so on and so forth right yeah we're all i think really hurts but you know ethereal is still solid right people start pushing rend to punch through armor ethereal you make people overpay for that stuff um the they do have a lack of basically any monsters which sucks especially in the new world and and they don't really have power projection right right right yeah gosh i'm not sure yeah like i mean they you know the benefit from the bodyguards that's nice to keep a lender on the boards that's going to help them out keep a i don't know if i can remember right nor is benefit from the bodyguard as well or not i mean cogs might help them a little bit the double cast they've they've got some some decent spells but uh yeah like i said i played a couple of games against them and they are just really feeling the two that the 2018 us of them yeah and yeah uh i'm not sure what all yeah i just feels like we're need facts or book yeah to really reassess this army and maybe some new units yeah in terms of they're going to get an expansion of anything but uh real quick hi it's grift said is there an app or a website that i can list build with with the new points i don't do it by hand yes war scroll builder will be updated once the like i already know it's in process there he was tweeting about it but it's like technically this isn't out yet right like technically this all doesn't release until the third we just have all this stuff real early but yes they there will be an app that you can hear that war scroll building i i've heard a lot of interest in the dread side heritance i don't i don't know the details they went down like they went back down a little bit and points but like yeah i may have to pull the worst scroll but i think it was jim uh james tensedel maybe somebody else who was talking about them saying that he thought that they were going to be a little more interesting now yeah we we did see that the i think the minimum size went up on the blade guys to end the heritance so it's not minimum 10 so that helps reinforce a little bit that's good yeah i'm sus i'm sus yeah i agree yeah it's a tough one yeah i i i i i think if you're a really really great night home player you can probably weather this and figure out some good ways to go here i think the new broken realm stuff helps but but it's definitely like you're you're on the uphill not the downhill yeah yep a siarck bone reapers uh one of the reasons death is so interesting because the point changes had almost nothing to do with this faction like the entire alliance i should say largely untouched and the control and nutrition strategy remains viable they need a giant f a q i mean they only went up an average of 0.38 percent so you know they had a lot of drops like catacos went down 30 points uh you know arch cabalos zen didos whatever his name is went down 15 most of stuff is pretty nominal increases like the crawler went up 15 still one of the best shooting units in the game like yes negosh shot way up don't tell jordan that he won't believe you i don't i don't think i've watched a battle report where you've hit meaningfully with your crawlers the most success i've had is when i run one not okay when i ran three before less yeah so but yeah no so you i think the crawler is personally like drop in stock quite a bit in 3.0 just from the just from the um no rent on it and you you can just plus one save right so that that hugely hurts them not that they obviously still have other uses like the hero slain is amazing sure um and different things like that but i think it's like you'll see max one where you often saw two before sure would be my expectation but i mean love to see people do things that i don't think of so sure yeah for the most part i think these guys are fine like their style is their style it's you know they have this like control and nutrition strategy right like a move and hold and push and hold and push and hold and push and hold strategy it's basically how the army is sort of designed to play it's kind of phalanx style and you know like the big questions remain though the bone daddy impact here is is pretty straightforward what the heck is happening with this army and rdp versus command that's it like we just we need the faq most of the armies we could do this on and say yeah okay sure there's a couple little questions with the faq but we basically get the scope of how they're gonna play probably because i don't think the faq or new pdfs or whatever we get are going to be like complete rewrites of every war scroll in the faction i just don't believe it i think most of it's gonna be pretty minimal generally feeling maybe i'm wrong i'll be happy to be wrong if they just like ooh they go nuts right but i just i don't see it but this army is just like i don't know i don't even know what are we doing here the the only thing i was i'm sorry the only thing i was hoping now this is just like was wishful thinking but because they changed a lot of the unit sizes to match what's sold in a box i was hoping it was going to be min 20 on the more tax and we could yeah that would have been cool yeah nobody would have wanted to play against a unit of 60 more tax but right well the fact that you could would have been hilarious all right yeah the army ventures an example of your men too your archive harbingers archive got that minus two rent so they didn't move in points you know 190 i wonder if they might be a little more interesting to obr players sure i i'm really intrigued by the stalkers i'd be curious to talk to like melnik and mef and and you know those guys about what they think about the net crop with stalkers because they've also got that built in minus two rents i think it's like three attacks they've got ways to you know re-rolls yeah potentially interesting too because they're also counting as two models now right because they're five wind dudes i think their stalkers are four oh are they am i thinking of the other yeah the other guys are six yeah the more guys are six the the net crop lists are four oh there you go yeah you're right i'm sorry but i apologize but yeah i think they could be a little more saying um cool to see catacross go down a little bit yeah you're right they're four ones i apologize yeah but uh i feel like a lot of these armies like i'm not that familiar with the new endless spells in terms of the impact that they're gonna have on the game it seems like there's gonna be a number of endless spells they're gonna be quite good you know we haven't talked a whole lot about a whole lot about all that and the next week we're gonna get into the endless spells maybe we can try to hit some of these armies kind of after the fact but yeah i'm sure a number of armies are going to benefit from the number of those endless spells yeah the endless spells i think they're they're clearly rewriting all of those just when we saw the ghb and saw that they rewrote every endless spell that was in the core game so it would stand to reason that most armies endless spells are going to also get you know heavily touched right so yeah yeah i've never i death writers are the piece of this army that i've always been underwhelmed by when i've seen them in battle reports like i i get their function it's just the i don't know they just never seem to do enough of what one would want them to do is that i don't know if that's been your sense i agree with that in terms of my experience now it's yeah unless you're running them in like um uh not more respiratory in the old petrofax when rend then they have you know more of the output you would expect but yeah they end up just this army is just like more tech art is the core of this army they're the best unit in this art like you know in a lot of ways the one of the best battle lines in the game yeah and that's agreed they would absolutely be in my top five battle line list 100 percent yeah like they do what it says on the 10 exactly what they're supposed to do they're one of the greatest examples of like this army this unit is supposed to act like this it acts like that right and riverside yeah they they were already resilient they already healed well and you know um yeah the command ability is the again the biggest thing that shakes down yeah definitely yeah cool all right that's death like i said death is easy because we don't yeah fast all right destruction begin the symphony of therein okay so uh gloom spite gets and my comment here is someone in destruction had to get the short end of the stava stick and it was blue spikes yeah uh uh shoot is in stavas you know pretty significantly increased on points 20 points per unit and then losing their max discount as well now they can still go to 60s which is nice but keep in mind that the like again talking fundamentals you know they lost their plus one bravery for every 10 models so you know these big units are going to get real susceptible real fast right um when you look at some of their powerful hero monsters like the mangler squig he shot way up now you know so that's kind of a lot uh or the the um sorry the loon boss on mangler squig oh one of 30 yeah he had a big jump right um the you know the webspinner shaman didn't be made out a little better at only plus 15 which isn't too bad the squig heard going to minimum 12 and then also going up 20 points and hurts like it really does um because those used to be just an easy pickup for like six things to kind of run around and be just you know sort of chaff and crap in the way little objective crappers and things like that because they were so cheap at just sort of 70 points for those models so that's not the case anymore you know it's it's this army wasn't blowing the doors off of anything and again like there are some pretty fundamental things that turned against it and uh and I don't see anything here that helps Kevin Rand asked no soul like ravelords no because their points didn't change at all yeah they're they're really as printed soul like they're really good yeah I think I think I think their hands down the best in death oh so like yeah 100% right now I totally agree with that they're they're the free and clear death winners right now yeah yeah uh anyways so yeah I mean gloomspite is just like I again I'll just I'll jump to my my impact right and the question they they're just asking one fundamental question can lots of bodies still do the work in this meta even with all the things that are turned against them like their bravery and stuff like that they do have a wide range of units they have everything from large body count they they're multiple units able to reach 60 to monster heroes and some tricks the lack of ability though to stack debuffs anymore does hurt their standard play style and though the points impact was lower than average many are hitting them in the units that were repeat a lot so yeah it feels like a lot of so they're dealing with the hangovers that they were throughout 2020 I would say in particular like let it happen 2019 throughout 2020 which was spelled on era really impacted them yeah and now they're losing debuff stacking on the hit rolls which is enormous the yeah I don't know this just feels like another army that's desperate for a book and it's also thankfully yeah rumors are going to get an early one hopefully along with the new spider kit so we'll we'll see if that turns out to be true but yeah I like I don't know what this army looks like right now like can you lean heavily into the the tragos and they've gone down what are they right now 155 for the fell water 190 for the dank holds uh rock guts are I mean 145 for three of them that's a lot of wounds let's pull out the reward scroll I'm kind of curious I mean the answer is you're still not getting the weight out of them that's the problem yeah because they don't have the wound count to double to double count oh crap yeah they're only four wounds five say two attacks three threes minus two three damage I mean that's a good little profile there for three of them but hmm yeah I then that is correct j-wrap said they also have no priest for curse that is correct they do not have a priest oh right yeah so like it's yeah it's up like I'm not saying they're ruined they're not you know they're like again you can sell a lot of fun playing this army somebody asked us maus is maus of jorke like you know still something that has game it's not measured like maus of jorke was never competitive it was just awesome right like maus of jorke was always sweet because playing a lot of swigs was insane and sometimes you would get these weird explosive turns where you would just blow into people and fight them and murder them right yeah but but it was never competitive it was it has all of the problems that the normal army has too and it's a lot of murder protect them yeah they're magic they're weak to a lot of magic they're very susceptible to a lot of battle shock like you know it's like it's it's that kind of stuff hmm cursed yeah man if they did have a priest that's uh that's a good shot yeah I just I don't have a feel for this army I'm not that familiar with it one of my one of my people in my club plays gloom spike quite a lot and he runs he runs both mixes of either the large body count or the maus of jorke was the two he uses and you know it's always interesting like it's a fun army to play against honestly um so it's it's fine like I think for for somebody who's looking for fun games this is still one of the go-to armies if we're just talking like overall competitiveness yeah it's still probably in the low middle okay yeah Jordan do you guys have any guys locally that run this uh a couple but and and uh yeah one of our guys does but yeah it's like I think just the changes to the shooters and stab us like again a battle line getting hit in multiple ways not only in points um but yeah it's like it hurts them so you just rip effect to the rest of the army right yeah um so that's yeah it's it's unfortunate just they're they're they've always been like an army like stave into me right where they have such their high numbers have a lot of different you know tools and whatnot but they definitely aren't coming out as well as the rats in this one all right yeah get ally and some squigs to potentially turn off unleash hell for folks you know like iron jaws take some squiggies sure okay uh ogre maw tribes uh where is the beef here's the beef all right uh so there's there's there's some notable changes here um so ogres were basically right at the average point so I'll just say that okay uh and I think for the most parts they're fine the bcr side came out better than the gut busters as is ever the case okay like the frost lord on stone horn was a good deal of 400 he's still a good deal at 430 like again hold him up to the keeper of secrets and you're like yep it seems like a pretty obvious choice here you know um the the the thunder tusk people are maybe a little higher than they should have gone up whatever like that's you know you know it's to be discussed glutton's at six is interesting because on one hand it becomes one of the most interesting wound anvils in the game because they are a battle line ogre unit that you can take that you can multiply out to 18 which is 72 wounds and counts as 36 bodies on objectives wow okay on the other hand very that that glutton unit is never going to bring all of its beef to combat unless they like radically change their reach or something yeah right if they change those 780 points it isn't even even six is hard to control right now like to get more than four in right that's tough yeah exactly so like i don't know what to make of that i really don't like is it just this meat wall like are you just trying to win by a meat wall right we're like well i'm just gonna move all these dudes forward and assume that you can't and dps check you with 72 wounds right right is that suddenly what we're doing in a unit where i can just sort of sit it there and be like go ahead shift this sure right uh i got it play yeah i got it the iron guts going up 25 points really hurts the lead belger is going up 20 points is comical they went from min two to min four as well i should state now you know fine they're both in fours so they do still have the old coherency rule right um i would point out that you can as assuming they don't change the commandability on the tyrant you can make that those 18 gluttons actually immune to battle shock as well well it's gonna be yeah i was right yeah you can just smack them once and then make them immune to battle shock yeah that's great so like interesting so so so roar so basically you can ignore roar no they become you smack them once in the first year phase and then they're immune to battle shock for the rest of the game battle shock yeah right i mean roar never shuts off battle shock immunity it only shuts off the oh that's right roar is in the color phase right yeah gotcha okay but still the fact that you can just have like this massive ridiculous unit that just you know what's battle shock i don't know yeah it's interesting like it is it is a hard body's play but you know dps checks can work especially in a game with more msu with less sort of you know we've talked about a lot of things that hit the super damage yet there's no more like crazy explosive earthguard berserker max units the the gulking on terror geist went down and his potential damage right like some of the damage stuff in the game that was your scary melee threats did go down in damage right yeah that's true so like the overall damage of an average unit probably dropped pretty considerably like those glutton's might be able to just exist their way to victory base base five up save base five up save yeah okay yeah that's intriguing and obviously you could take the little thing to make some kickback mortals on their saves as well they're they're punchback gotcha little fisties they're little fisties mm-hmm yeah um i mean they my summation is sorry powerful monster heroes took a small hit but are primed to go to do well i mean the bcr side is just primed for success they went up in a little bit in points but they're so fundamentally strong in this edition there's a couple little things that don't stack on them anymore but for the most part they are lock stock ready to go rock right the glutton unit's interesting if on wheel day is just a dps check and body block people off they could very much use enough dates deal with the new coherency rules and the beast claw side seems to remain the winner right now but they are still a fundamentally strong army in an objective base game where every troop you guys counts is two and your monster dudes count is 10 you know you're still playing the very fundamental concept of the game well right yeah uh leadbelcher's they didn't think it used to be two min size two looks like they're min size four yeah leadbelcher used to be two therefore now yeah yeah i've never been impressed by them because they're not impressive yeah uh yetis of course we saw stewart mcgowan uh run the yeti list looks like they only got a 10 point increase that's interesting uh i'm not sure if they're two inch reach let's see uh frostborn and thundercats guys i can see them getting some play there's still a 55 point difference from the stone horns so yeah there might be a thing uh morphing pack going up 20 that's not that doesn't seem too bad again either again they're the old two four thing and they do count it like they they have their um they're already counting as two so like they're not benefiting from anything new they just count as what they always counted as sure yeah yeah still seems like monster trucks cam monster truck i mean yeah summation if you loved monster trucks get ready to go to go wild you're gonna be crushing cars no okay so the gluttons are just that one unit though that like is the prototypical example of hoping they fit change something with the base size yeah like if they gave them a two inch reach or something yeah we're on board suddenly that 18 glutton unit is looking crazy interesting yeah that's it's so funny how a simple change right could change everything around yeah yeah all right orc war clans so yes the swamp bogglers are also in this no i don't have them on the list because i need to be able to fit it on one page and their points aren't real anyways whatever it says in this book is wrong their real points will be in their book and it comes out later this month okay so let's talk about the fundamental stuff here one cragnos the end of empires down 65 points he's getting closer to what we originally guessed keep going uh so that's grace out on him he needs to get lost he's what i'm painting right now like literally the guy on my desk i'm about to start i primed him he's got a he's got a permanent rental in the dirt through zone he's gonna like the crazy thing about this guy he's supposed to obviously supposed to be the ultimate monster slayer yes and it's gonna be monsters roaring at him scaring him to death turning off his ability to get plus one to hit yeah he's gonna be hitting on threes yeah and just flubbing all the time uh or he's gonna be hitting on fours with minus one to hit sure there's a lot of monsters that might get minus one to hit sure yeah my first my first test with this guy was a complete disaster that's hilarious uh i mean overall the big the big news here is like gourd rack and the mega boss both had big points increases that were probably deserved because they are they are we mentioned the damage in the game going down oh not over there not in that realm the mega boss on mawcrush is still bringing that 30 to 40 damage around if he wants to he's still got that red neg three he's still bringing it like a truck baby he's so good beep uh here he comes re-roll wounds on the charge and clean the mount yep oh and you didn't eat iron fist to get all this free movement like you can still get the free move in your hero phase like it's it's there boys it's there like we got we got this uh so did it oh my god dude double cabbage all the way sure it's honestly like viable like legitimately viable sure i ran a list last night i mean they just steam roll luminous i mean i got i got the iron jaws double and but like it was it was a double war chaner weird knob double cabbage one with award one with real wounds and uh monastery rent and uh 10 brutes which were incredible i'm in love right now 10 brutes because you give it a two inch reach because they have a two inch reach yeah good to go uh plus one damage on there and then two by three pigs at army was awesome like it felt so good and it's probably going to get destroyed in a few weeks time but we'll see uh yeah uh yeah we don't know if any of these points are going to change they they could i i hope not i think all these will probably be set but um let's hope so yeah um uh like yeah this like i'm i'm in for iron jaws in the new edition it's the age of destruction bring it your old battle line so again things like we haven't talked about battle tactics there's like there's like a grand strategy that just keep all your battle line units alive it's like yep i can do that something or not keep all so i keep at least one alive like i can keep at least one alive that's no issue right and you know yeah like they're they still have the great fundamentals bonuses to damage easy like their bonuses to hit the making being able to throw a plus one save on piggies makes them even tougher and a better mobile anvil uh you could yeah going double double cabbage so you can you know double more crushers so one can be the offensive and one can be the defensive yeah it's a it's a great day it's a great day and in workland land oh one little dozen of brutes that that four inch i really felt it with the inability to run after you retreat now boy you you feel that in certain situations isn't that i feel that's such a great change for the game though yeah like personally and overall like from you know whether it's been negative for me i don't i don't even care like just right yeah that feels it's actually one of those great changes so i agree it's it's actually it makes things that have a wider move to retreat really impactful right so yeah yeah that's fine uh i heard people talking about the bone splitters that they were pretty high on them again that's an army like like get some of that familiar with bone splitters i know that they can shoot a lot they put a lot of wounds on the table yeah i mean there's still the same thing else where they didn't really change that much their points changes were pretty minimal you know they don't have any monsters but they are pretty good monster killers uh so you know which is good you do earn bonus victory points once around when you kill monsters in the if you're using the ghp battle pack so like being having things that are good at killing monsters is good especially in real worry you'll probably see a lot of monsters that's you know just being good at that is a free basically four or five victory points a game it's not nothing so yep yeah i think they're basically where they are i think they're sort of status quo ish right um but the the iron jaws i think are stocks oh god i'm so worried they're gonna take away uh smashing a bastion they're gonna take away money destroyers i let's let's let's all hope not we all again don't want do not want like when i heard that the the swamp bogglers were going to be part of a new war claims book i was like no no just give them a look get a lot of my book i don't want a book it's fine i'm good i know yeah it just feels like yeah go ahead yeah they should they should i feel like they'd leave most of the same right there's nothing that like jumps out in war clans that like right you know is dying for for changes or updates so yeah guys crossed look when it comes to the iron jaws phone it in just phone it in i'm asking you to take the day off be lazy reprint kappa copy paste it's your friend we need nothing i'm fine fine okay i'm over here i got a full beautiful meal in front of me i don't need you to start taking plates away i'm good the dishes in front of me look delicious let me eat them all right oops sorry uh so yeah war clans impact still a potent force now with even more options uh the it's already a strong army it is susceptible to some of the reaction command abilities like you know that's things like only shall and redeploy matter but we are like especially in iron jaws you are one of the still remain one of the faster armies in the game yeah the additional options of the cruel boys could be quite potent in big wall through like i haven't seen the stats on the i shoot a tree at you all right uh artillery but i have a feeling that's going to be potentially ending up in a lot of lists maybe some of the bolt boys the little shooters i can see those getting added in to add some ranged fire power into into you know maybe more iron jaws based lists right with folks could folks could go old school chris tomlin style with his brutes that he converted to hold crossbows yeah yeah yeah yeah um as i said here a great deal depends on how much change is in the new book but for now i'm saying stocks absolutely yeah i'm so intrigued to flip this is number one on the list right now for for my army like i want to yeah double cabbage like i just want i want to play 3.0 with a melee army and see how that feels for like a year a year plus and yeah just lean into it jordan anything else so much fun i know just exactly that like their their points again just summary relatively didn't change much and just so much upside with the new edition that like yeah they're they're looking good i think destruction as a whole is probably like the best you know grand alliance in terms of like overall how how they came out like a lot i think i think there's a lot to be excited about as a destruction player yeah i agree w soren said i asked for a copy paste before the war clan's book after the iron jaws change in ghp 2019 and that's true i did because i was like this is so good how can it get any better and then they made the book and i was like oh my god it got better i didn't think it was possible so like now i just i don't i believe we've hit some kind of cap i just don't think you can make this army better for what i want like it is exactly the army i want stop please stop leave me something here i guess there is still something boom sons of behemoth get hype folks folks let's talk about them stonks this is the stonks right here this is where it's at i got my first game with giants in nice they're insane they are sweet yeah oh yeah this is where it's at the fact that you can just run four megas now because everything in the army's battle line easiest grand strategy completion in the world table four objectives complete my grand strategy four objectives four megas you're good to go i am all monsters so like all the ghp battle tactics i score extra points on just give me all them extra points i only have four units in my thing so yeah you can only like earn your four victory points enjoy them i'm gonna earn all mine so you better bring me down you better table me uh the fact that i like oh my god the stonks i don't even know where to go with this first of all this army didn't change all in points ways because it can't like yeah the gate breaker went up to 525 but the war stompa and the man crusher both went down 10 it basically evens out the same you have more or less the same choices you did always so whatever yeah yeah uh this is the only time i made a meme myself i i made this okay like all these other beams i stole but this one i made nice so this is uh obviously uh from from uh uh falcon and the winter soldier right no and uh getting losers we're going stomping and boy oh boy is it true like i played this army here there's a couple little notes i want to make the the value of baby giants went way down because baby giants don't have a champion oh yeah wow so they can still like roar at people and do extra mortal wounds and man is it great like oftentimes i just had them picking the mortal wound impact hit because i would like i would just charge them in three dice two ups yep got all those and then i'll throw an extra on top so it's like 43 mortal wounds chuck a chuck a chuck a boom and then i activate them and now i grab three people and kill them instantly i had my cabbage the other night i'm like double double check that nonsense are you sure that's how that works it is how that works yeah and so like you can before you've actually swung a weapon against like you know kind of massive dudes you've already done 43 plus three effectively plus three models dead worth of work that's quite a lot of work before you ever swung a weapon and babies always were pretty offensive right right so like that's great they were they were just clean and clocks left and right when i was there um three of them i now i was running stomp a tribe because i generally like running stomp a tribe for the bonus damage i charged three of them into a pack of 30 dryads then there were no more dryads um they all went bye bye sounds right yeah so it's just like three damage club hits when you make 30 attacks is yeah pretty good um the the addition of like their powerful hero monster battle lines they play the objective game better than anybody they can do more damage thanks to command abilities they have flaming weapon as a potential now on their heroes and you know if you take the the bookie book or the little dangler eye uh your piece the addition of the five up word to the game has no bigger impact on this army right like you could just take your kraken eater general give him either the neg one to hit or the plus five wounds and the five up save and call it a day right there and you have got like a real hard to bring down dude yeah right yeah 100 that's walking around counting as 30 models on an objective right uh this like stomps okay i don't know how else to say it this army is so much fun to play but i think i want to run it now as three megas and three babies like three as a unit of three babies what what three megas uh i've actually been looking at going back to to um to take her tribe i'm still kind of messing around with my list okay um just because the problem with stomp a tribe in the new edition is your actual stomp a general can't use um can't use command abilities he can't use the generic command abilities he can only use his own so he's shut off from all that now you can your other giants can use command abilities like normal right but you've got to have like babysitters walking around effectively because he can only use whatever i'm going to play around with a couple different builds it'll either end up being uh take a tribe or or i'm going to replay through all of them because breakers is the problem with breakers is like breakers are very expensive now you can't spam breakers sure but i've always actually liked war stomp us i think people undervalue them you just have to use them very carefully the thing i love about stomp a tribe is it has the charge three six command trade oh yeah that's good and that command trade is so good it's so stupid good to just fling him into something um so i might honestly try like stomp a tribe with just a pack of three babies and they're the only ones getting their actual bonus and who cares right and then there's just kind of two independent megas running around like maybe i've got to see how the points work out yeah got sure nice there's the options right now with the battle line change like yeah you can do so flexible so many options yeah i think that was a great change for the book yeah definitely uh i'll reach out to peter atkinson plastic rake he's been writing some great articles on goon hammer obviously he's been running sons and yeah i asked him you know what he would take to tournament right now he said uh triple kraken and a gate breaker with a gate breaker with the five up wards sure and yeah it's like yeah that sounds pretty good but yeah these guys is they can't really fit in any of the battalions basically sure you can take the unified battalion with like one mega and then your uh your baby or like i forget how to uh yeah your one mega and your like three baby units can drop in the basic troops so you can't fulfill that one but then all that does is like further lower your drops it's not nothing right but which is fine it you're already a pretty low drop army so it's something but you can't there's basically no way to get any of the additional uh artifacts in here sure which right yeah but yeah they're just firing on cylinders as tom would say oh this is 100 gas in the tank yeah uh they have got gas in the tank they got money in the bank uh yeah i was i played a year against well i played a lot against the kraken eaters and they would always underwell me in combat just where they hit like feathers in combat yeah and now nope no longer one took out a cabbage in one shot sure hold it fully healed yeah because he turned off my ability to stack saves see he roared got scared and yeah roar give himself plus one to hit do the dirty business and the advantage to having three big the three big boys is that's three rounds of having your best day ever with your hero and giving them plus one to save and plus one to wound and then roaring in and then giving them plus one to hit and it's like well who's ready to die these guys honestly i i think sons are going to be one of the big bads of the you know next few months yeah like they they have so so much upside and yeah it's in some ways this this reminds me it's like the addendum to the sons of behemoth book events that you complained about rightfully and that show you did where you find you know like they've given you the outputs and and some of these things that you you were calling for finally i didn't know it suddenly was apparently there's somebody was said like don't worry this is going to be kind of weak for now but in three more right the world will change i'm a patient man um ten art studio just answers question um i had a work meeting so i missed this but i saw some of the cast stuff mentioned that you can still take archion with things like blades or singe how does that work i thought the new match play rules limited you it did uh it does i should say it's not that it did it does those the match play rules do limit you accordingly however in the ghp they explained that there are these things called coalition units which is just a weird new thing that exists that they don't really explain in the pages we've seen but there will that will be explained in the pdf because you will have the ability to take certain things as coalition units and the example they give is like taking chaos warriors or stuff like that basically it'll probably still be keyword aligned the trick is when you take that stuff it does not count as your battle line anymore ouch so you cannot take like marauders and slanesh and count them as your battle and you can just take them and that's fine they fit they don't break your allegiance abilities they can still um you know benefit from stuff but um but they uh but they do not count as battle line they do still count as artillery behemoths or leaders accordingly as whatever they are so get in losers we're going okay uh final thoughts uh so i'll give mine and then i want you guys to go through and give yours so overall everyone went up but i am not sure the right things went up by the right amount we've hit that note so many times right like it's just we're like it's good that everything went up i like that i wanted more go up but i wanted more go up on the right things and that's not what i'm sure we hit they weren't large enough but they weren't distributed in the way that i would expect for the real sins the things that are causing the game to like we know what's breaking the curve hit those things the things that don't get played hit less i you know there you go there's some there's just some headscrappers out here and i'm not sure we fully capitalized on the opportunity we had here because ultimately this is the chance you can't just put out a random ghp and shoot everybody's points up 20 percent people would riot because they wouldn't expect it at an addition change they say hey guess what everything's gonna change and you're like okay cool that's what i thought right and so a lot still depends on part three the f aq day one pdfs that we have yet to see so jordan what's your what's your thoughts buddy what's what's your overall final thoughts first things first i'm so excited for the game right now it's so much fun playing s3 and the new changes they're great a lot of great like just health of the game changes that they made um which and and you know the heroic actions and monstrous uh things like those are all like you know really cool interesting things and there's you know more more kind of participation in through throughout the game on both players turns so all that stuff i'm super happy like it's static with so you know aos again is in a great spot super happy with it but yeah like you said there are a few things that you kind of have to stretch your head about where they you know the direction they went with different things um yeah hopefully you know it really just i don't know i'm excited to the whole game is i feel like it's flipped on its head in terms of you know what the meta was and where we're going to be going forward just opens up it's just a refresh right it feels like yeah you know it's it's exciting to see you know the first couple tournaments and you know where things are and where our expectations are different than you know kind of what it what things that end up being and that's it's part of you know what i've always loved and the list building so it just i don't know i'm just so excited right now with it feels like a hard refresh for the game and especially you know on the up and up from coming out of a you know year where we weren't getting much games in or there weren't many events so yeah absolutely one quick note on that since we've all played some 3.0 games have your games been faster they have mine have oddly enough yeah yeah it's because pylon isn't fiddly crap anymore and your units are smaller the actual like all these new decision points i printed out my game aid sheet i'm like my heroic actions this is round roll done okay good it takes five seconds once you've done it one time my monstrous actions are always obvious i need to roar that unit extra mortal wounds here done yeah right like that stuff doesn't actually add to time what added to time was big units moving and doing fiddly pylon nonsense my games have been like considerably noticeably faster yeah that's the quality of life stuff you're talking about right exactly it'll take a bit of time for everyone to like like think of the command abilities to remember which heroic actions are available like to do that intuitively sort of internalize that yeah that's why i said to print out that game aid sheet put it next to you right yeah so but you know a couple weeks couple months we'll all be flowing and yeah the game is gonna be faster yeah because i just be like okay start of the round that i gained my command point for my general i'll use my heroic at like if i didn't have anything else to do nobody to heal whatever i try to gain another command point oh four up yep got one of those and then i pick my battle tactic okay it's that one now let's go exactly i just went down my little list tyler what are you thinking yeah so uh when you guys i was we're talking i was just quickly doing a winners maybe fine and no all right let's start with a no piece of chaos blades of corn slainesh feck night hunt gets that's in my no category okay they'll be fine chara drawn seraphon and luminous i'm just banking that range damage is going to still be pretty good in this game still enough of crutch to carry along sure seems like a decent bet even you know if the baseline of rand is is going going up you know where you've got better saves etc maybe fire slayers silvaneth zinch nergal obr i would say in the in the they might be fine they're on the border yeah exactly yeah yeah i feel like i don't really have a great sense about them zinch definitely took quite a quite a hit obr obviously anyway we've talked about those yeah i put those on my maybe there's a bunch of winners which you know as like i said six out of ten at the start of this i feel like i need to bump that up a little bit you know as we've gone through it winners cities of sigmar doc idk scaven slaves of darkness soul blight mod tribes war clans uh both probably ij and bone splitters and suns i mean that's uh that's a pretty healthy winners list and then yeah quite a few in the maybe and then three yeah so i don't know yeah i'm like personally kind of reflecting on this four hours of what we've discussed these points in the end in terms of like my working sense of what the list might be like what factions can be competitive etc it's it's better than i thought going into this conversation yeah so yeah yeah yeah i'm but in general yeah i'm really excited for 3.0 it's a absolute quality of life improvement to the game and uh yeah just ready for those facts bring them on all right everybody we've been going for a while so we're going to call it a day right there we'll be back next week discussing even more good ghb stuff probably back to the normal time uh next week uh and uh uh don't forget to hit like if you liked the show or if you didn't like it it's okay still hit one of those buttons i prefer the like one but if you click any of those buttons it still increases the engagement so i appreciate it but please hit like subscribe if you haven't already thank you tyler jordan it was great to have you on brother this is a lot of fun definitely a pleasure you're welcome back anytime we will have you on again in the future i know you've got experience with a lot of armies so as i said once we get through all this third edition level setting it's going to be time to start grinding through the forces and i would love to have you back for one so 100 all right for all of you out there thank you so much for watching uh and uh if there's if uh if there's anything you felt we got wrong or you think we missed as a point please drop that in the comments after you hit like and subscribe thanks everybody have a great rest of your day we'll see you next wednesday hi