So I'm here to talk about active HTTPS cookie hijacking First of all, who am I what do I do? I'm a volunteer tour developer I work on the latest tour button release for a secure tour toggling and isolation of cookies and all that stuff and a Tour set of tour scanners and libraries for monitoring tour performance and scanning a's nodes called tour flow General privacy advocate censorship Opponent I also my day job is of being a forward-and-reverse engineer for a network acceleration company called Riverbed We make awesome network acceleration gear I'm also a flexitarian which means it's a sort of like a step below vegetarian Absolutely no meat unless it's free range or particularly delicious Now the problem is I've had a lot more success converting vegetarians to flexitarianism than normals to flexitarianism So I don't know if I'm not positive yet, but maybe maybe someday I'm also a random hacker. I do all sorts of random stuff as it as the as the mood strikes me I've got an IRC bot that like pass a touring test. It was quoted as a human in a in a magazine or human consultant So that was pretty good So what am I doing? Why am I doing this? So I'm really in about two weeks. I'll be releasing code that can steal insecure HTTPS cookies I actually announced this to bug track a year ago and notified Google of the issue And there's been almost no action on it from pretty much any website for the past year And the vector the vector of it can be done for more than just local Wi-Fi networks You can leverage Dan Kaminsky's DNS hijacking attack and a whole bunch of other vectors as well We'll get into later And a whole bunch of sites are vulnerable they think that I will just you know Maybe they do development via HTTP and they slap HTTPS on later And so they just don't set the bits on the cookies for convenience So the response is to try and raise awareness to release a fully automated tool that shows just how dangerous this is The not setting the secure bit on these cookies and it's a very easy fix You know you just basically setting a property on these on on a cookie to cause it not to be transmitted So let's go back to the basics then why why does this work or what what is a cookie? How does it work? So obviously they're used for authentication and tracking in your web browser There are basically a variable to get set by a website There are a few key properties that they have and that govern when they're transmitted and that is they have a domain A path which government only transmitted for the for sites that match the domain and path And they've an expiration time and then the secure bit the SSL bit, which is what's of interest here? So What was it last year my announcement was sort of overshadowed by Robert Graham's side-jacking attack announcement at DEF CON our black hat I'm sorry and What was that basically it was a glorified sniffer that just passively captured cookies to into like non SSL websites That people were visiting on the local network and he had a like a janky proxy base in interface for that for doing that that That cookie setting in interception And he did he did try to save path info, but it was a little bit too specific in some cases and that could lead to issues But he did manage to like raise the alarm pretty good for at least that issue the lack of SSL and how dangerous that is So I'm hoping to try and do the same here and encourage sites to actually set there this property So let's take that that attack a step further If you want to grab arbitrary cookies from somebody without them actually visiting a site Basically the scenario is a user logs into a site. That's not secure Sometime in the past they set the remember me flag and then they The local attacker can then inject arbitrary Content elements like images or iframes or what have you that will cause the browser to transmit any cookies that it has for that For that domain so in this case injecting an image source for yahoo will Into a page will cause the browser of course to transmit the cookies for yahoo and it's sort of the the you know Common name for this is cross site request forgery But we don't really care about performing any particular action on the server in this case We just want to cause the client to transmit its cookies its authentication tokens So we don't care if this the request succeeds or not at the server It doesn't really matter if the actual URL is valid or an image or anything so You know the You can then say these cookies and write them to a Firefox compatible cookies dot text file So how does this HTTPS cookie hijacking thing work? So it's very similar yesterday instead of logging into the insecure Service they log into the secure service HTTPS mail.google.com for example Then with that cookie set to be persistent later they log in to www.cnn.com for example on an insecure network with a malicious attacker And we'll get into exactly what that is it turns out basically every network is a malicious network as far as this attack is concerned and You the attacker then we can inject Again the same image source, but this time without the HTTPS just HTTP and because the SSL only property is not set on these cookies They just get transmitted and then the attacker can observe and then record them and Then you can write them out to a Firefox compatible cookie dot text and load that into your browser and impersonate that user And if you're on the local network, you know the the some sites will have only allow me to connect from this IP address If you're on the local network, you can spoof that IP address You know borrow their Mac and personate them right on their their connection and that you know Or if it's behind a nap the IP is the same. So you are still able to impersonate them fully And the key point here is the user doesn't even have to be using whatever service that they you know They they log into via the the hostile network How did we go all the way up there? All right, so as I said before this is not just the problem with Open wireless networks There's tons of vectors for this you can do the of course that are poisoning attack our spoofing attack on a switch network wired switch network You can do the DHCP server exhaustion where you request all the all the leases from a DHCP server So that it runs out stops answering and then you start answering for it So then you say all the gateways over here route everything through me, please and then you can do this attack Dan Kaminsky's DNS hijacking attack I've been a I believe he said that somewhere between 30 to 40 percent of the DNS servers out there still have a Fixed source port so that the hits attack and still work and that was the estimate of a few days ago He may have been scanning continuously more. I've heard higher estimates from other people significantly higher. So The other thing is we saw a couple of cable modem talks to Yesterday where they were able to read the down sniff the downstream traffic and inject traffic into there This attack really needs upstream to be able to capture the client the cookies sent by the client So the attacker sort of needs a custom cable modem that they've hacked to be able to read You know capture the upstream frequencies as well. So at this point without a hardware hack It's might not be possible, but still a sophisticated attacker can potentially hack their modem to do this And there is Docsis encryption, but it's weak. It's 56 bit.  So it's pretty quality But probably nobody's gonna adopt that anyways So you basically can use this tool and could inject these elements for your target domain and then use wire shark as a script to To grab those cookies and then write them out manually Why your shark has a scriptable interface used to be called TF the real it's probably called T wire shark now basically shell scripting type stuff So so what is this utility that I'm gonna be releasing it's a fully automated pile work on tool It basically caches DNS responses. So you see a DNS Request for a particular domain you cash that name and then you listen for SSL connections to port 4 for 3 for an IP You look up in your cash DNS table. What was a domain for that? They say oh here is the domain For for this IP. I'm gonna I want to that's a target. I want to inject that into that user later So you store it into a queue for injection and then next time the that target IP connects to any HTTP website CNN or whatever then you inject that This this DNS name into that stream and cause them and transmit their cookies. So it can be fully automated And then the then the tool will write any resulting Cookies out to a cookies dot text file they can use in Firefox 2. I haven't done Firefox 3 support yet It's SQL light. There are Python libraries for that. I just haven't gotten to it yet Okay, so there is a little bit of configuration though It's not you know, there's not a 100% automobile automatable, but it is quite close So you need the path for it to be able to entice sites to transmit if they have a path restriction like mail.google.com Has the path restriction set but that's not a problem. I mean you just that's the same for every site So you can just have a table of common sites You can also you might also want to steal arbitrary cookies for non SSL sites as well You can provide a target list for that. So I want to always grab Facebook cookies or whatever in addition to any other injection So I so cookie monsters been doing without cookies for quite a while So they've been starting to feed him fruit.  So I think I think we need to feed him some cookies now Let's see So the first target So I've been mentioning. Oh, let's just do this first one. I've been mentioning mail.google.com as a target interestingly enough Damn it. Oh This is this is not that important. I don't know if I can change the font size So I'm just running the tool it has some command line arguments It's probably good that you can't see the font because there's a web key on there that I don't want people injecting stuff into So it's just I'm just running the tool from this command line It has few arguments to say the interface the key and Mac address that you want to watch So now I'm going to go over and hit addons dot mozilla.org now addons dot mozilla.org has a Has a feature where you can if you're an add-on developer You can be a trusted add-on developer and now what this does is allows you to Upload add-ons and have them instantly be propagated to all the users that have subscribed to that Particular add-on so if there's a vulnerability in this site, you know And you can capture the cookies of somebody you can potentially cause a whole bunch of users to install malicious firefox extensions That then go on themselves that have full access to your system They can run arbitrary code and then when the update comes to try and revert it. They're already running other malware So the doffcon network has not been the greatest But at this point I already have enough information to be able to inject the content element if the network will hold up for the Success of the next request So let's see here. Let me double check here So now I'm going to go to CNN and Know there was a quick little refresh It it transmits some data from addons dot mozilla.org and then the the page load CNN is normal Now successive reloads of this user might be like well, that was kind of weird that I had a little white page for a little while there What the hell was that? You know they hit reload and the tool is noted that it's already captured the cookies So the second time around it doesn't you know, it doesn't it doesn't inject the white screen So now I'm I'm going to in copy these cookies over to my firefox profile So I guess I could try and do a k-term so I could show you that What is it? Okay console I'll show you that there's nothing on my sleeve here if I can change the font We're doing in time Which one how's that there there there? 18 alright, so here's the profile that I'm going to use There is no cookies dot text here. I'm going to copy it over from the from the file that I just just created What oh there's wait, oh there's a cook oops less Check the sleeve no, it's empty and there's an there's there's this sketchiness We'll get rid of that just so you know that I'm not screwing around with that all right, um Copy cookies So here's the cookies file Less cookies a text and there are all here's all the cookies that have been written out Now we'll hit now we'll fire up a different browser I guess I guess there could be tons of things up my sleeve still So just have to have to trust me and check the tool in a couple of weeks So now we'll hit in this other browser, which is a different profile as Torbott install this one doesn't Hit and unset mozilla.org and now I'm still I'm still logged in so there's the developer tools I can go and potentially upload a malicious extension The same thing is applicable to Gmail however about 20 minutes before the talk they changed How the cookie headers were being transmitted and the tool stopped working? So That was a little strange. I mean it could have been me being doing something retarded I was trying to do a couple of last-minute changes But it sure looks like the cookie headers being transmitted away that like wouldn't normally be you know It's truncated. Basically the HP header is not long enough to include it So you see here So hit All right, so let's hit HBS mail.google.com and So we loaded the page restore the map and then we'll hit CNN see if this works No, it's not getting it Something changed. Oh, well, that's broken. It'll be fixed by the time I release the tool apologies So Google so all right, let's go back to this All right, so cookie monsters feel much better. We've given them at least add-ons. I'm those a lot of org Gmail is the Gmail So vulnerable in the default configuration. So let's do What can you do to protect yourself? So okay, so about a week ago Google did announce that we have they have a HTTPS preff you know if it if You set this preff in your options you you're aware of it Then you can say oh, I want Gmail to be HTTPS only so The problem with this though is that if you if you don't not aware of it The default behavior of Gmail if you're familiar you log in via HTTPS It'll keep you an HTTPS afterwards and you'll think that you're secure But you're really not The could the cookie is still set without the secure bit if you haven't said this preff and you're not aware of it So it's my opinion that it really should be the case that Gmail is You know should know since already is tracking the fact that you are logging in via HTTPS and knows to redirect you to HTTPS Afterwards the cookie should still have that property, but it does not So that would be the ideal fix You can also use this force HTTPS Firefox add-on, but it's very complicated You have to edit some browser preferences to be able to specify that you want to force specific domains There the UI is not not done yet The other thing you do is just log out of your SSL services when you're done and clear your cookies regularly And not access things the outside of SSL So as I said before there is a another potential vector where a large portion of the internet can be Their Gmail captured especially if they're not aware of this this attack basically you there the metasploit module for the DNS hijack has been out for a while the computer academic underground. I think put it out So you basically scan for these vulnerable DNS servers You can hijack Google.com by using the glue of spoofing the glue record after you spoof the sequence number And then you can inject these content elements into the domain for the page that you're for the Page that you're targeting be a good idea to target Google.com because people probably hit Google For before doing pretty commonly to do a search and then you only have to do one hijack And you can modify this tool to passively collect these these cookies at your IP and it's a two-line change and then question question question profit Additional services are vulnerable it are additional service that are vulnerable are Google Docs all the Google services haven't been upgraded as well So the the all those cookies have you know still are insecure you can grab There's a lot of corporations will store sensitive stuff in their Google Docs the Google domain For example the preft to set for the domain wide is $50 a seat so it's it can cost you know a great deal of Money to be able to pay for the right to set this pref across the domain And the individual preft has not been rolled out to the your individual user accounts for the Google domain services yet so Little bit. Thanks. I want to thank Damon McCoy. He helped out of with additional wireless drivers and Headers for the injection so it would work on arbitrary networks Colin Jackson for his force HPS work a lot of conversations with Nick Weaver He actually his blog describes a bounce attack that you can use to get arbitrary Google session cookies for any arbitrary service So if you Google for his blog posts on the topic he outlines that there So that's another potential vulnerability And then of course all the Lorcan and Python pile our kind of authors in the deep packet team


You Worried about what is going on in the world. Do you have a hard time? Understanding what is said in the media about the economic policies that we're going through Good morning, Hans. Good morning. Hi. Tell us a little bit about yourself if you don't mind. Well, my name is Hans Kenberg I was born in Sweden. I studied in the United States for many years And then I worked in Switzerland teaching economics at the university there before moving to Asia About 15 years ago first to Hong Kong Working at the Hong Kong monetary authority and then back to coming here to Malaysia working for first for Bank Nogara and then for the ASB Very good. Could you tell us what you do at Ekliff and ASB? I'm a professor of economics at ASB and I'm also the senior director from banking and finance programs at Ekliff I teach courses of course the executive education courses and on macroeconomics and financial issues and For equally I believe you are teaching a program called macroeconomics policies and COVID-19 Could you tell us a little bit about this program? It's a program that is part of a track on global economics at Ekliff and the COVID-19 course is about the economic consequences of the COVID pandemic and the What central banks and treasuries do to try to manage the? Pandemic and economic issues arounding that and it's a course that will Allow us to understand better how businesses can Manage and navigate the economic landscape after the COVID-19 It sounds like you spend a lot of time researching on this subject matter Explain to us a little bit. Why is this subject matter so important to you? Well, you know I in my whole professional life. I've been interested in economics and Understanding how the global economy works how it impacts businesses central banks and I've also The other part of my professional career is to explain my insights to central bankers to business leaders to students and To help them Understand what the global economy is all about Hans, what specific business issues do you hope to address by conducting this program? you know in the COVID-19 situation things are changing very fast in the economy and We don't really understand what the final outcome is going to be how long it's going to take before we get back to what people now call the new normal and what I Intend to focus on in this course is to explain to business leaders What the new situation is likely to be like what central banks are doing and what the are the benefits and the risks that central banks are Leading us through as a result of what they are Undertaking and what impact do you think the program will have on a participant? After he or she has attended such a program You will get a better understanding of the global economy in general But and in particular what the current situation implies for your businesses and you will hopefully be able to take advantage of that knowledge to make your business grow more solidly and Avoid the risks and pitfalls that might arise along the way If there are people who are watching us today, and they're interested to sign up for your program What final words do you have to say to them before we sign off today? I would say I would ask a question. Are you? Worried about what is going on in the world. Do you have a hard time? understanding what is said in the media about the economic policies that we're going through I would say well, if you if you say yes to those questions, then you should come to my course You'll find the answers


In 1978, Stephen Kubaki was a 23-year-old student attending Hope College in Holland, Michigan. In February of that year, Steve decided to go on a solo cross-country skiing trip. Only Steve never returned. The next day, a few snowmobilers found Steve's abandoned backpack and skis, a large search-and-rescue operation unfolded, in which investigators followed Steve's footprints in the snow out past the edge of the frozen lake. Everyone presumed Steve Kubaki fell through the ice and drowned, only that's not what happened. Over a year later, on May 5th, 1979, Steve showed up on his aunt's doorstep in Massachusetts, more than 700 miles away from where he disappeared. He said he woke up in a field with no memory of where he had been for the past 15 months. When Steve awoke, he was wearing strange clothes and had backpack with maps he didn't recognize. To this day, Steve Kubaki has no memory of what he did or how he traveled so far.


If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump. Mind pump. With your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, we talk about celebrity plastic surgery. Then there's some informational stuff in the beginning.  Don't you do that, kids. That's something we just invented in this episode. You'll see what we're talking about. No, everybody says that. Adam talks about the status of his training and his diet, because that's important. We're talking about my mobility training, or lack thereof. And dumbbells and barbells versus machines. And then we get into the questions. We talk about the importance of order exercises during your workout. In other words, when you're doing your workout, does the order of your exercise matter, or can you just mix them up? Just wing it. However you want. Then we talk about Prime Pro and how that may not have completed the Maps series. We actually do a little brainstorming on this podcast. You get to hear our process.  Then we talk about our opinion on yoga and its usability with foam fighters. Yes, it's a thing. Apparently it's big. We're signing Adam up. And don't lie, Justin. You're the one that's going to be foam fighting. I know. And then we talk about old man strength. Is there science behind it, or is it just a myth? Lastly, this month we introduced Maps Prime Pro, our correctional program to help you correct muscle imbalances in your body.  And we also have another program called Maps Prime, which is not the same, but similar in the sense that it helps you prime your workouts. What we're going to do right now is we're going to create the Maps Prime bundle. In this bundle you have Maps Prime Pro and Maps Prime, both of which can complement any workout, whether you're doing a Maps program or you're doing a body part split or crossfit or whatever. Both of these programs are very complementary.  This is something you can use on all your clients. We took both programs, put them together, discounted them greatly. You can find them at MindPumpMedia.com. All right, you ready? Dan and it. Three, two, go. Ready, Adam? Dan and it. Wait, I do kind of want to run through you this little quiz here. It's a quiz for Sal? It's a Sal quiz. You're going to have to name the university's fight song. Let's see. I don't like sports and I didn't go to college, so I don't know. Oh, Penn State. That was good. He said, I think you should get an extra point though for saying it, Confess. Yeah, that was good. Does it come up with a Stanford? Stanford.  Some kind of Native American mascot. Oh, come on, dude. You got to do better than that. I feel like that's cultural appropriation. They probably don't like that anymore. They probably don't even sing it anymore. Really? Yeah. You know, Florida State. You're terrible in this game. Let's move on.  Is that everybody gets cultural appropriation.   It's a pizza. It's a family time. We eat the pasta.  Come on, man. Mario Brothers, the most racist cartoon of all time. So good. Come on, man.   I'm not. I think it's awesome. You can't identify with leprechauns. You know what I mean? Like, I'm okay with them. I'm okay with Lucky Charms. All right.  That's why you make me play it. Is it TV show?  If you can't name it by now. Is it a game show? Hello, world. Somebody see you. God damn, it's a good movie. It's a good show, too. Make you happy. Happy days? Whatever, Adam. Partish fan.  I don't even know what that was. Did you have a TV when you were a kid? No. We were poor, dude. That's right. I feel bad. Not along with my father. Not along with my father died. We always hit him in the soft spot. You didn't have a TV. Always. I lived in a cave. That's the Partridge family, dude. You guys never watched the Partridge show? I'm not that old. I'm just into what it was. He's almost that old. That's true. We are the wiser. The girl in the Partridge family? The daughter or whatever?  What was her name? Something Day. Something Day or some shit? I had no idea. But she was hot. Danny Bonaducci got jacked. He got crazy as what happened. Crazy and lost his mind. You know who else lost their mind? Who? Carrot Top. Oh, yeah. Bro, I just saw a picture of him. I remember all the plastic surgery and steroids. His face is awesome. He looked totally a different guy. You know what makes me laugh, though, about that? First of all, I feel bad for him. He's obviously got some problems. I like him. I think he's funny.  One of my favorite live shows.  One of the best. Really? He's top three. He's a good performer. I feel bad for him.  How many times have you seen people like this, especially celebrities who are so unaware that they'll be interviewed by somebody? This happened to Carrot Top. It happened to Michael Jackson, too, when he was live. I'm looking him up right now. People would ask him, like, why have you had so many plastic surgeries? He'd be like, I haven't had any. Oh, he's totally like oblivious.  Yeah. Obviously.  So what did you guys do yesterday after we went home from work here? Worked out. You just lifted? Yeah. Yesterday? Did you have a good workout, Adam? I didn't, actually. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't good. I've now created this new caloric maintenance for myself that's really high. I had Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, four days in a row of, like, missing my maintenance level. So being in a deficit. And I was really excited to train that day because I had scheduled, like, it was going to be a heavy hard leg session. And I wanted to squat and maybe possibly hit a PR. And I knew right away when I got out of the bar that I didn't have the gas and I didn't have the energy. I didn't have, and it sucked because I had the mindset because I felt really good. I was very recovered. But I'd been in a deficit for four or five days in a row like that. It totally hindered my strength. And so I shared this on my Insta story, but it's kind of a cool topic is to, and I think these are the things that we all kind of do that we don't really talk about very much. And I think that's where we always encourage modification and changing things is none of us follow the exact regimen that we have planned every single day, day in and day out. Because if you're really good at what you do, you learn to adjust on the fly based off of the signals that you've learned that your body tells you, right? How did you adjust? I moved to a more functional, mobility-driven kind of day. And so I worked on range of motion. I did some cost check. Am I saying that right? Cost check. No, that's the UFC fighter. You got Cossack? Josh Cossack. You did some Josh Cossack? Cossack. Cossack? Is it Cossack or Cossack? Cossack. Yeah. Spell it. K-C-O-S-S-A. K-C-K. Gorgeous K. Yeah. So I did everybody who cares. Whatever, Google it. Map, squats. We'll make up a name for it. Like we do in our program. So I did some Cossack squats. I did the earthquake bar or whatever you call that. Nice. I forget the name of that. What do you think of the wrestler from back in the day of the earthquake? Yeah, like the bamboo bar? Not the bamboo, but the other one that's where the weights are down by my hips. And it's really unstable because of that. It's the thicker, the thick bar. What's it called? I can't believe I can't think of the name of it. It's not a... A camber bar? No. It's like a camber bar. But it's much more camber than that, right? It's when I get under it, the weights are down here, right? Yeah. It's super unstable. We need to get one of those in there. I do want one of that. I mean, I use...  Yeah. Yeah. I'll be honest. Front squats for me because of my shoulder mobility, my wrist mobility just aren't comfortable. And I avoid them like the plague, I'll be honest. But yet I know how important they are for me to do them. So sometimes what I'll do is, like this is what I'll do is I'll do a variation of that, which it loads it more on the front, so it's definitely more quad dominant. Yeah. We used to do that in workout a lot. Yeah. You guys would come in, one of those workouts. Yeah. Love. Love those. You know, we have to get those bars in here. So yeah. So anyways, I changed my routine. I had the intention of going in there, a heavy leg day hard training session and realized right into the workout that although I felt good as far as inflammation being down, mobility being good, mental clarity being all good, I didn't have the gas. And I could tell I didn't have the gas. I should have had the gas. That's kind of a theme for you running out of gas. No gas. Stupid. For those of you who don't know, he did that in the car with us sometime. He's got a motor. I think that this is where a lot of people though make mistakes because of the shit that we talk about all the time on here is the beast mode, no days off. And what's the saying go? You know, finish the workout.  Oh, but did you die? Yeah. That means like everything. Right. So, you know, why? Like if I'm calorie deprived already and you can tell your body is not going to hit anything. I'm going to hit any major strength PRs on a day like that. And you can tell when you start listening to your body. Yeah. And why push beyond like that? I'm getting all the benefits of fat burning or leaning out because I'm in a caloric deficit.  Right. And you're still sending a solid muscle building signal. And so it's just learning how to weave in and out of that. I think that's a... See, I've made an agreement with myself I am not going to be squatting over 135 for a while because I attempted to do a pistol squat. And let's just say... You shredded something. It wasn't even... Yeah. It wasn't even an attempt. Oh, no. Oh, it was bad. Oh, no. So I'm doing them with... Is it a video? Of course not. This is a horrible ruin mind pump. Yeah. I did it with... I was holding on to a TRX. I'm doing it now with a TRX. Okay. To like balance. And I'm practicing like that. And it's just... And then cossack squats for me. Mm-hmm. You might as well ask me to do a backflip.  So my workout now is totally consistent. It's revolved around all these movements. Nice. You want to know the irony, though? The weirdness about all that? Here's what's weird. I feel like my legs are growing. Oh, for sure. Yeah, dude. New stimulus. I mean, look at... Yeah, I know that, but... I know.  Well, this is why we're learning a whole new movement. This is why we stress this all the time, that when you talk about all the different... And I know it's an old principle, but the fit principle still stands true. The frequency intensity time type is that it's not just... Intensity is not the only signal that is going to tell your legs to grow. And in fact, there's many others. And when most people tend to manipulate only intensity, when you actually go outside of that, it's amazing how much the body responds. This is why I always... I think the majority of people only know of that as being the method to grow. Just go harder. Yeah, harder or less hard, right?  And I think actually learning to manipulate other factors I think is huge. And when you take some... When I went through that whole mobility, like, fuck, what was it? It was about six, eight months, maybe longer. And it was the same thing. I had the same mentality. I'm not going to squat over 135. I think I said 225. I'm a little bit stronger than you. So I was like, okay, I'm going to... I won't go any heavier... You're going to throw that one. I won't go any heavier than two... Pound for pound. No chance. No. Not even close. So I said I wouldn't go over 225 and then I would continue to work on depth and mobility. And I definitely didn't see... I didn't like... You might be seeing gains. I wasn't seeing gains. But what I didn't see was I didn't regress, which was that's what I was surprised. Now that I'm back on it, oh man, I was right back to my best squat already within a month of hitting it hard again. So what I'm doing at the end of my workout, is I'm finishing all my workouts now as I'll sit in a squat, which for me is hard to do, and I'll time myself, and I'm up to one minute and 45 seconds. Are you squeezing as you're at the bottom of that? I'm trying to maintain tension. Maintain tension. Yeah, in particular in my ankles and feet because they want to pronate so bad. So I'm sitting down there trying to activate my feet and trying to get everything lined up and stuff for a minute and 45.  Sitting in it isn't that bad anymore. The balance is kind of hard for me. I've gotten a couple cramps in my abs, which by the way, if you ever have a muscle cramp in your abs, worst place ever. Oh yeah.  Getting out.  When you're down in there and it's hard for you and I get out of it, I feel like I'm 105. Yeah. You know what I mean? That will all change, dude. Because I tell you what, when we all got together and we first started this, I believe I had the worst mobility. I think if we had... No, mine was worse. You think so? No. I'm first place in bad mobility. It depends on the movement. I'm trying to make it sound good. Yeah. No, mobility. So first of all, you have to understand something here. There's a couple things we're looking at. There's natural body awareness ability that we all have genetically. And I definitely did not win in that department. So that's number one. Number two. Do you think that's true? Do you think we all... Everyone has levels of proprioception. Totally. Totally. Then there's that. Then there's the fact that you got... The sports that I was engaged in are different. They required a different type of proprioceptive ability. Like if you put me on the ground on my back and do stuff like that, then I probably have decent, right? I don't think I'm great, but decent, only because I did jiu-jitsu and stuff like that. Yeah, not a familiar position for me. Yeah. No, you're on your knees, then you know what you're doing. If you... Legs up in the air. If you... Like if we're running and cutting and... It's all in the world, dude.  Yeah, no. Not so much. Yeah, we know how unathletic you are. I would say though, I was... I don't know. I definitely... I couldn't sit... I couldn't sit down in a squat. That's for sure. But you have before. Well, now I do. No, no, no. You have before that. You lost mobility. Oh, oh, oh. I never had it. Got you. You hear what I'm saying? Oh, you don't think you could have... I never had good mobility. Never.  Oh, I think you just... I'm sure when you were playing... What you see... When you're running with jiu-jitsu, there's no way you wouldn't have... Yeah. ...a range of motion. No, I could not sit in... I still couldn't sit in a squat even when I was doing jiu-jitsu. For sure, when you were a baby playing with toys, you were sitting in a baby position. No, actually, no. I had an office chair. It was my pipe. With my... You just, like, at the keyboard. With my... I had on a cravat. I was reading books. Picture of baby... I totally see this. Picture of baby... Little baby... Little brown baby. This explains a lot now. No, no, no. I never had... Celebrating his knowledge. What are you... Here's what you need to understand. What you see with me in terms of how I move and how I function in the gym is 100% a product of hard work. 20 plus years of training, you know what I'm saying? So you guys make fun of me, but it's kind of messed up. It's like, I'm as good as I'm going to get. So you guys should be coming. Come on, man. You're maxed out. No, no, no. I'm dedicating now. I'm dedicating some time. You said you hadn't even tried yet. I'm dedicating at least another week to mobility. I'm going back to...  Anyway. What'd you do afterwards? Just humbling, man. I went and worked out... I went and worked out a bit with my wife at this gym that's like the family gym. So you get like... The Santa Cruz one? Yeah, you fight for like... There's two squat racks and, you know, anybody who actually trains is like fighting over them the whole time. So, yeah. There's a picture of me up there. Thanks, Doug. Baby Sal. Baby Sal with the pipe. With the pipe. So you... Let me ask you this, Justin. You're at the family gym. Yeah. With the wife. Mm-hmm. After work, you're kind of tired. Do you work out? Like, are you able to focus? Or are you kind of like... No. I mean, no. That's... And see like your problem with getting like into these kind of less intense positions and like my problem as of the last year or so has been ramping up intensity because I'm so chill, like chilling, comfortable, and I'm trying to like kind of flow through these functional movements and like that's made its way into my workouts predominantly.  So you're trying to stop... I just... I need to ramp my intensity. I just shared this on my IG like a couple days ago that I had the first like what I would consider an intense workout where I was like sweating from it and over... It feels like so long. It took a month. It took me a month of consistently working my way back in to training to ramp up the intensity and volume. I couldn't even handle the total volume in a net like... Right. That's the problem where you kind of turn it on too hard and then you just get super sore. Oh yeah.  Did you... How much volume? I don't know why I couldn't say that. That was very tough. How much total volume are you doing per body part right now? Per week. Per week? Yeah. I'm not mathematically... Inclined? Yeah. No, I am actually. I know. He's a numbers guy. But I'm not actually calculating right now. I mean I'm... Yeah, I've done that so much that I can kind of guesstimate. What I can tell you is this is I couldn't even complete a full maps routine for almost the first month. So you're doing... Would you say you're doing less than like 12 total sets per body part per week? Or is it higher than that? No. Because 12 would be like three. Yeah. It was less than that. Right now though. Oh no. Now I'm probably up to about... If I had to guesstimate I'd say I'm probably between 15... 15 to 20 sets per body part. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I say 15 to 20 because the way I modify per week... And this is per week by the way. So the audience knows this isn't one workout. Yeah. Split up between two and three workouts. Yes. Maybe a Joe Donnelly workout. You know, I could totally identify with Ben Pack when we were interviewing him. He said... I don't know if you guys remember this but this is literally how I do it. Where I kind of look at myself in the mirror every week and I go, I could use a little more addressing my shoulders. Oh, it looks like I need to address my back a little bit. I need to address my back a little more. And that is what will... That's what dictated your workout? Yeah. That's what will dictate the amount of volume that I place on that muscle group for that week. So it's kind of how I do it right now. But if I had to guess, I'd say between 15 and 20 sets but I worked up to that.  Just like exactly what Justin said is I was so mobility driven and so I was doing all of these movements like this that were slow, control, my heart rate is down, my breathing is down. And then I was like, it's like hard to ramp up my heart rate. Yeah. And sustain it. Yeah. Like that's been a challenge for me. It took a solid month. It took a solid month before I was getting in the gym. And when I say getting after it, I don't even mean the beast mode. I mean, just like moving from exercise to exercise, getting after it pretty good, breaking a solid sweat from that. That's not super setting. That's not short rest periods. That's just a good, intense, solid workout, you know, full routine. Yeah. So currently, let's see, per body part, I just ramped up my volume. I'm at like 36, 30. No, sorry, 32 sets per body part per week is what I'm doing right now.  It's pretty high right now and I'm just doing it to see how I feel as soon as I feel like it's maybe too much. I'm going to back down. That's around the most, I think the most I'll ever get to is around 40. I've gotten, I'll go up to 40 sets per week per body part. And that's usually, I can, I can stay there for a few weeks before I need to ramp it up.  You were doing a lot. I remember. Well, it was, I mean, your conditioning on that end was pretty high. Yeah. No, I could, I could run through at least double the amount of sets I am and with maybe one day off a week. If that fine in my body, but I, you know, that I think the important note to make is that that's two years into competing. So I was like, I ramped up to that and that's what I'm doing again right now. And somebody, I think I wanted, so was it Zach Harding on our forum just recently. It gave me a little tag and jab about hopping or Thomas. It was Thomas who wanted me to hop in a show with him and I wouldn't get in a show right now because I'm not, I'm not ready. Like I'm not even close to what my body can handle volume wise right now. So I know I'm not in my peak. Like I'm still ramping up to that. I would want to be hitting that and then I would want to cut for a show to bring, to bring my best physique. So I know, right now, I could get shredded right now. I think people don't don't understand that. They don't put that together because at least those that are looking for the most elite level type physique, like it takes time. It takes time to, to build that, that muscle density and that muscle mass and the amount of food and the amount of volume of training that I have to do to have this 230 pound, you know, lean physique is a lot. It's a lot of training. It's a lot of food. It's a lot of forcing. Yeah. It's a lot of pushing my body beyond. That's what I mean. Yeah. They're like, if you're constantly forcing it. Yeah. It's definitely not where my body naturally wants to be. It takes a lot of, and I, and I love doing it. I really do. I love that as much as we could talk all day long about how important it is to, you know, have this healthy balance and, you know, we should be training around where our body kind of set point is. And if you're having to force yourself to eat more, push beyond these limits, then it's not, it's not what your body wants. And we should listen that, well, this is true.  I want to be able to share with people how to do that as safe and as right as possible while also not being Whatever man, as long as you're having fun. Well, and also not to be a fool about it to think that this is what's ideal for my body. This is not what's ideal for longevity. This is not a healthy, this isn't the healthiest way I could be living. It's, I'm going, I'm pushing my body to streams, which I love to do. I love that we have this control that if we really put it, put it together, lay it and change your body and so many different ways. I had an interesting realization earlier. Someone on the forum was asking how, you know, because I think in our, in our interview with Ben Pekolsky, he made the comment that the muscle doesn't know where the resistance coming from doesn't care if it's a machine or a freeway or a cable or whatever, right? And you know, that's true. Not true. That's the housing to say as trainers have we've trained thousands of everyday people, right? Not just high level high-level bodybuilders or athletes, but lots and lots and lots of everyday people. And we all know instinctively that that's not true. Like a barbell row is going to give you different results than a cable row. And it's superior in terms of building muscle. We just know that instinctively. But in terms of the answer to that question, does the body know the difference? Well, do you know the difference? Cause that's my response. It's part of your body. Do you, exactly.  Well, then stop separating your muscles from you. It is you. It's all of you. If you know the difference, then there is a difference. So of course it's different. So there you go. Yeah, no, I think there is. I think when you are thinking from a... It's so simplistic though. It's just tension. That's all it is. If that's all it was, then we could just create intrinsic tension. You could create intrinsic tension without weight or you could have a muscle contraction machine, just make your muscle contract really, really hard. And then that would do the same thing. There's much more to it. Where I connect and I understand, cause I used to say this. I used to say that all resistance training is flexion of the muscles with some sort of... I think we all were trained to say that. Right, right. It's flexion of the muscles, right? It's flexion of the muscles. Once you really understand that, how to contract a muscle properly. Then it doesn't matter. Right, then it doesn't matter. Then from there, the next thing is changing it up with different stimulus, right? If I do dumbbells all the time, then doing cables, this and that. And we know that the strength curve is different because of the two and how in gravity, cause gravity's playing a role when you talk about a pulley system versus a free weight. So, and each of them have their benefits. I mean, I think the easy obvious one to me is... Plus it's more linear. Yeah, the force. It's more linear. And the fact that when you're stabilizing a dumbbell versus a cable with this consistent... Yeah, there's a lot more variables. There is. There's more to control that. And anyone who's done it has felt it before. Yeah, you feel the difference.  Well, now besides all that, because obviously the tension is different with free weights because you're fighting gravity versus a pulley or whatever. Besides all that, because we can explain all those little differences, but then I could respond and say, well, what if I made a machine that mimicked the exact tension load that you would get with a dumbbell? Would they still be different? And the answer's still yes. It still is yes. It's... It's how you perceive it, right? It's much more complex than we... I think we know how to explain, but as trainers, as coaches, anybody who's coached lots and lots of people will tell you that a barbell squat's gonna produce, for most people, more muscle and more strength and better performance than a hack squat or something that mimics that squat, like a Smith machine or whatever. And this seems to be true for a lot of exercises, for most exercises, that free weights just do that. The debate that you could have with that is that under a machine where there's this controlled tension that's safer, easier, free to stabilize allows you to concentrate on utilizing the primary muscles you're trying to target and work versus... So... Sure, sure. I understand that, but that wasn't the question. The question is like, the muscle doesn't know the difference. No, I know. I know what you're saying. Yeah, I don't... I mean, yeah, can you isolate more depending on the machine? Probably definitely because it's... You can direct them better. Yeah, it's just removing other factors out of the way so all you have to focus on is one particular part of the movement. But yeah, as far as like... I mean, I definitely... I noticed a difference and it'll be interesting to see as I peel down how it looks, because that to me, that's what I'll really know. But I see an aesthetic difference in my physique from the way I've been training now versus what I was training two years ago. It's because I'm so much more barbell focused than I was machines. I utilize machines way more. And there's pluses and minuses to both. I see... I saw way more strength gains and size and more functional carryover from obviously the barbell stuff. The machines, I don't seem to have the same bubbly muscle shapely look to them. Like I feel like I could create more of this cartoonish character out of my physique by targeting all these tiny little muscles on my body. Yeah, I think that's why you combine the two of them if you're very advanced. You won't know till you achieve the same conditioning and size, right? Then you'll really be able to look at the difference. But here's the question. You've worked your legs out for a long time. You did leg presses and hack squats and all these other movements. Is there a difference between those and barbell squats? Oh yeah. I mean, that's what I'm telling you right now is that my gains that I saw from that has been crazy. But it's different. Again, even like I had bubblier looking legs before, where now I have like these dense, hard, grainier legs now. It's weird. We can speculate why. Well, I know, these are the things, this is why I love what we do because it's science and we're still learning about it. And when you've done as much as we have with experimenting with yourself and with clients, there's some things that you've seen that you just know is different and there's something about it, we don't explain what that's about. Yeah, I don't have the words to articulate exactly what it is. I mean, machines are basically creating levers, right? They're getting away from like gravitational forces on some level. So it's like, no matter how you manipulate that, like you're taking out one component that's already there from gravity. Yeah, and that's a good point because there is no machine that will mimic perfectly what a free weight is. It's just not a free weight, right? It's different, but yeah, saying that your body, your muscles don't know the difference, well, we tend to separate the systems of the body as if they exist independent of us.  It is no longer you, it is no longer, so does the muscle know the difference? If you know the difference, then your muscles probably will know the difference as well.  I mean, so to say that the muscles don't know the difference and muscles are dumb, to some extent that's true, but to a large extent, no, if you know, then they probably know too. And there is, I don't know if there's a they, you know what I mean?  Yeah. Mm. Bring it on the ground. Surely. Kwaw And go ahead and slam it. Kuih Merra Kwaw. Today's Kwaw is being brought to you by Chi Merah Coffee. It's the only coffee that is infused with all natural nutrients for a cleaner, calmer, and more focused buzz without the crash. Put the Chi Merra Link at mindpumpmedia.com and input the discount code, Mind Pump a Checkout for 10% off. It's the motherfucking flaw. The eagle has landed. All right, our first question is from Matu's Brella, the importance of the order of exercises during a total body routine, do you always do the same order each workout or do you mix them up? Yes. Yes. Yes. You know what this reminds me of? What?  Ectoplasm, that's the slime. They're beams or whatever, right? Oh, photon. They're photon beams. And like, what do you never do? You never cross the beams, right? It's amazing to me that you have this crazy photographic memory for those things. What's I mean? He has it for studies. He has it for studies. Super power. Yeah, I wish I had it for like better things. Me and Justin can, we can actually connect on pop culture and stuff. But anyway, what do they always say?  Don't mix up the exercise order. Universe fucks the whole maps program up. It's like dividing by zero. You'll create a singularity in the whole universe. Well, I think, you know, here's the thing, yes and no, right? I mean, can you? I hate it when you say that, by the way. I know. I know. I know. That's like your way of not agreeing, you know what I mean? Yes and no. Yes and no, right? Yes. In some ways. Well, here's the deal. Like, could you order them differently? Well, absolutely. Are you going to potentially get less results going that way? Potentially, yes. Yeah. I think that the way we structured them by doing your big major lifts first. It's part of the programming. Yeah. It's a big part of the, it's a big key in exercise programming. We consider how people, like, how they deal with it, like energy-wise and like conditioning-wise and like, you know, what is like probably, the order of it basically makes the most sense into where, you know, you're not going to be, it's not going to have diminishing factors to going through the rest of the workout where you get fatigued. The goal of exercise programming or the way we put it together in our programs, like maps, the goal is to maximize one of all aspects of the programming are designed and put together in order in a way to maximize the results. So it's like, we pay, this is why we talk about the programming so much of workouts and why it's so important. Yeah. There's all these different factors. That's an experience component. Yeah. And I could try and list all the different factors. We actually did this once. We went up to, I don't remember where we were, but we were putting a program together and we listed all the things you have to consider when you're programming a workout. And that list got massive.  Right. So part of the programming and it's designed to totally maximize your results. This is why when people follow good exercise programming, they just feel a difference. They, I mean, people will start maps, for example, and they're doing a normal workout or one they found in muscle and fitness or whatever. And they're blown away. And it's not magic. It's just, it's good.  Let's talk about some of the big rocks that make a big difference in that we knew would change things for a lot of, for a majority, right? Cause there's always exceptions to the rule and everything too. And you can mix up the, by the way, every once in a while, mixing up the exercise order is a good thing, by the way. Yeah. And that's why I said yes and no, right? It's yes and no through a monkey in the wrench. Right. By doing it, uh, intermittently, it wouldn't be a bad thing. Did you say throw a monkey in the wrench? It didn't work. We'll just miss that right now. Did he just say throw a monkey? It's a thing now. We just started it. It's a saying. So some people say that in my opinion, I'd like to hear what you guys think.  Or I saw so many, so much results. Well, that's the magic behind that was we knew that most people were missing out on the frequency key. Frequency is king. It is king when it comes to building muscle and because the market has been selling everybody intensity for so long, we knew that a majority of the people were missing out on that piece just because we've trained thousands of people. When you've trained so many clients, you start to realize there's a common theme and one of the common themes is most people that would hire one of us would be overtraining their body and they wouldn't be taking advantage of frequency. So we knew by splitting the muscle up over three days in a week versus, you know, a body part split like most people are doing. We knew right away the body is going to respond for that. So that's the big one, right? Was that the frequency aspect that we included in? Then we also made sure that the major compound lifts, the big barbell lifts were a staple in every single workout, which there's another thing that when you start to analyze the average Jane or Joe in their workout, most people don't even have those lifts in there. A lot of people skip those lifts because they're hard. So they avoid them. When they're the biggest bang for your buck, so not only do we make sure they're in the program, we make them the foundation of every one. It's just the most effective exercises. I mean, you have to take into account what adaptation you're after, what exercises you pick for that particular adaptation, the rep range depending on the type of adaptation, the rest, the tempo, then the exercise order and how they follow each other. And then you have to count for the following workout and how that communicates with the first workout and also moving forward to the next workout. Yeah, what you do in between with the rest. Then there's phases and how the phases communicate and all of them have to are geared towards a particular type of adaptation. So one of the pieces is order of exercises. So for the most part, 95% of the time, if you're following a program that's programmed out by somebody that you trust, like if you're following maps, follow the order of the exercises, it would be no different than you saying, hey, can I just just do a totally different workout? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like it's it's it's that important. Well, somebody like I'm over this. Somebody just you don't want to throw a monkey at the wretch. You don't want to throw a monkey at the wretch. Like, don't do it.  You know, so it's it all somebody just posted on our forum that they just finished the great transformation photo, by the way, of they went through the whole RGB, right? So they went all the way through. Oh, I saw that. Yeah, really good. Right, red, green, and then black. And then he says he was asking people's recommendation on what they would do next. And I asked him what his goal was. I actually haven't seen what he's responded. This was this morning. But that's kind of along the lines of of this is like, we you know, we recommend that anybody who has maps is like literally, you know, follow it to a T every one of them all the way through. If you give it a fair shot first. Yeah, right. Once you've run through the whole thing, like definitely look at it again, assess it and see what you can modify and like incorporate and get, you know, add certain things like Adam was talking about that one bar that he'll use for squats, you know, that's different. Like think outside the box in terms of that, but like try and follow the formula in the sequence. Yeah, once you know your body too, as you start doing these workouts, then you can start to kind of listen to your body a little more and know how to modify.  Then the smaller, maybe single joint, less taxing exercises. And so I'll give you two extreme examples, right? A deadlift versus a bicep curl, like which one is more taxing, which one is more complex, which one requires more of your cognitive ability and function to focus on the technique and what you're doing versus one that doesn't really require as much. It only makes sense that when you are your, when you have your most energy, when you're at the least amount of fatigue, you're most focused, which is at the beginning of your workout, that that's where you would take those big complex movements and place them at the beginning. And your secondary muscles are not burnt out. You know, you're not... There's that too, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you are going to do a bench press, doing a shoulder and a tricep exercise before it, it's not an ideal situation. You're not going to get the most out of that bench press. And the bench press is what gives you the most. It's like, it's all kind of mathematical when you think about it, right? Like, if we gave it a point system, like, okay, all these exercises give you points towards, you know, getting towards your goal.  I just keep thinking as you're talking about this, somebody right now is writing an app. Based off of what you're talking about. That's actually, it would be kind of cool to be sick. We talked about that, about doing an app that would do that. But man, the moving parts. And how would you enter that into the algorithm? It would be hard. But you... We need like a fucking... We keep waiting for developers. So people get an idea that you, if your bench press gives you five points and the shoulder, you know, lateral raise and the, you know, tricep push down are one and a half points, you want the most energy going into the one that's going to give you five points so you get the most amount of points out of it. Because if you half ask the bench press, even though it's worth five points, you may only get four out of it. And you might get all one and a half points out of the shoulder exercise and the tricep exercise. Regardless. Regardless. Right. So think of it like that. Regardless.  I just threw a monkey in it. I don't know where that came from. Oh my God. Quick commercial break. Hey, people ask us all the time how they can support Mind Pump. Here's what you can do. You can go to www.brain.fm forward slash mind pump and get 20% off brain FM for meditation or focus. You can also go to audible trial.com forward slash mind pump and get a 30 day trial plus one free audio book. Lastly, you can go to get nature blend.com forward slash mind pump and you will get a discount on Ben Greenfield CBD product. Our next question is from fit Sean fat to fit. You guys mentioned now that prime pro is out that maps is complete. So what types of programs are you guys going to launch down the road? Or are all full programs done with? So we thought prime pro would complete that. That was the.  Yeah. It's too big. And it came to me. That was like, you know, when when Star Wars finally finished. Yeah. And you're like, ah, I guess. You know, like that's the universe. All right. I was, I had to keep going. I was, I was the one who said that. And I don't think I'm like, I think I came off a little wrong when I said that like it's complete. What was complete and what I meant by that was. We know at one point a big part of where mind pump will go is to training the trainers. And that's our passion. It's actually more than anything else we talk about. We that's where what we love to do is to help actually better at that. We are training class. We really are. So we're so I look forward to the day that we are focused a lot on the fitness professionals out there that are giving this type of information. We knew that if we were going to do this on a large scale that we would need all of the these maps put together. So now that we now have that. So we are in a position now if we were to let's say, you know, train 50 trainers on how to be better trainers. We have all the tools from, you know, a assessment and understanding dysfunction and joint pain and all the things that which have to tap into our minds of how we would program like every individual and like what that would look like. Like we I mean, there's a lot that we can do with just that piece alone, not to mention even the business side of it that I think that would be a great contribution. Right. Exactly. You know, when all the maps programs now kind of cover the major, you know, like the basis. Right.  Aesthetic was our competitor. So really learning to sculpt the body, you know, prime. Obviously had a primary workouts and post prime them.  You have your, you know, one that doesn't work out where you can do them at home. Like we've covered all the bases. But if we did write more programs, we definitely could. It would probably be either more specific, like, you know, programs for specific sports, or we would go back through our programs and revamp them and maybe do a pro series of all the maps programs. Because I could definitely see us doing that. Like I could see a maps anabolic pro. Yeah. There's a lot more coaching points that we can add to, you know, the programs for sure. Like maps aesthetic, like maps aesthetic is a great program for stage competitors bodybuilders physique bikini. Like you could easily do a maps aesthetic pro and include like the prep, like the contest prep side of it. Like what you do up until the day of competition, you know, type of deal. Like I could see that too. You know, I could see what performance like adding. Yeah. Very specific, like competitive lifts, right? So like I'm doing like a power cleaner or specific sports or yeah, or specific attributes.  Yeah. Like these kind of tests, I thought, you know, completely about, you know, running, running through different techniques and ways to prep before these types of tests and markers that you're trying to achieve. So I guess the point was that it's not complete as it's. Never over. Right. It's over. What's complete is that we now have the tools to I think educate trained trainers to be better trainers with their clients. And that was the main thing for us. I think we have tons of ideas on how we can evolve each one of the programs because they, there's ton that we can build upon them. And even, you know, getting into coaching, coaching points on all those programs. I think that's a big one for us. So I think a lot of what we're going to do now will be spent working in the business. That's been the big focus for July and all the projects for us is to enhance the process for somebody who's coming onto Mind Pump and just getting started with maps and experiencing everything that we have right now. And so we're trying to enhance that process. Ray DeCaso is asking, what's your opinion on yoga for flexibility and mobility training? He's a foam fighter and is debating adding a yoga practice to his strength training. What's a foam fighter? Is that like larping? Yeah, it is. No, it's not. Yes, it is. Wait, oh, I think he's showed us a video. They hold, they have foam. I look at them. They whack each other. They have like foam swords. It's not real. Yes, it is. Doug, after you answer this question, you have to show me this. But like, it's a thing. It's not just like... Well, let him finish it. Well, he just wants to know if adding yoga is going to be a good idea for his... Well, first we need to see what foam fighter... Yeah, we got to get the full picture here. You got to do that whole... I have the video here, actually. I just pulled it up.  That's what I would do. I would do maybe some strength training. Like stop foam fighting. Yeah.  You know... Is it for real? They'd argue the opposite. So they have... 100%, this is one of Justin's fans. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, so... They have shields.  Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah, so let's go ahead and hit pause there, Doug. It's loud there, see? And they throw spears made out of foam. Yeah, you make fun, dude. I would totally do this. Of course you would. So let's just pretend for a second we have a time machine and we took the average guy from like 1500 something and brought him forward and he's like, what do men do nowadays? And they're like, let me show you.  What would you think?   We've become pussies. I didn't know that was real. Yeah, they fight, they have rules, and they hit each other with foam weapons. I love it. I would love to host a LARPing of Fire. No, no, no, it's not LARP. We should... Yeah.  I feel like it's really close. You and me in the physique world, I think I should enter. There's no doubt in my mind. You would be the only one... There is no doubt in my mind. Oh, whack people. This is one of Justin's fans. You're kidding me? I'm a whack people. 100%. For sure, Justin's fan. Yeah. Here's the thing. My people. I bet they met Justin at one of those. I don't think Justin should do this because... He thinks so, probably.  They're big. Yeah, they're huge. I would get the heaviest one and knock people out. Yeah, they have big battles. Nobody has arms. No. So foam fighting, it's an activity. It requires lots of movement. Like a sport. Oh my God, it's so funny. Yoga will definitely help with... Okay, we're going to have to do something special. Doug, can you please put this guy's name down because I think I'm going to want... I want him to call in and I just want to... I literally want to attend one of these things. Well, I just want to ask how one gets into this. Where does... I... No one ever invited me to one of these. I don't understand where... How does somebody... How does this even start? Like, do we have one... You were too busy being cool, Adam. Do we have these around? Do we have... You should know this, then. I don't understand how you got tired of rolling dice. This is far too dangerous for me. Far too dangerous. Oh, you get hit with a foam sword really hard and your eyeball? Do we have these? You could probably get a little... Do we have these locally? Can we do a Google... I don't know. San Jose foam fighting. Let's find one. I feel like we're in Silicon Valley. I feel like the largest guy is probably here. I feel like San Jose is probably the biggest... Oh, they're leagues. I don't know, but if they do have a league, I would bet San Jose is a champion team. Okay, we need to go back and ask the question because I totally forgot what we're being asked right now. The question is... This is all news to me right now. The question is, will yoga benefit his flexibility and mobility? And then he said he's a foam fighter. And my answer was, yoga is an excellent structured form of functional flexibility training. So the reason why I'm saying it that way is you can individualize functional flexibility training and it'll be better than yoga. Dude, do MAPS Prime Pro. Yeah, that'll be... If you want something to work on your flexibility and you want something more specific to you... And specifically mobility. So you've got strength in that range of motion. Exactly. That's why I say that because that's the one knock that I have on yoga is that if you... Because like most things, because we're creatures of habit, we find something we like... People think this flexibility is what you're trying to achieve and in fact, you need supported strength in that range of motion that you're utilizing. So before you guys continue, you need to know that real yoga... What I mean by that... Well, you can't say that. You guys are referring to like Yin yoga. Which is super popular. It's not nearly as popular as the normal sun salutation type classes like vinyasa flow. That's the most... If you go to a yoga school, most classes will be the ones that take you through these poses. They will have probably a Yin yoga type class, but it's going to be like once a week. I don't know. The most of the ones that we had teaching at 24 are fitness and then we had around the area were your basic... So Yin yoga were your...  Yes.  No. Yeah, that's what... No, most yoga... A lot of what I've been doing... Yeah. No, most yoga that people do is this active form where you get into these positions. Now, can you be... You tense up in those forms. Can you be passive in those positions? Yeah. So I can get in warrior one, warrior two, or whatever, and I can allow my joints to support me and let my feet press out against the grippy mat and I can kind of sit in this position, which most people do. But a yoga instructor, or the good ones at least, and I know because my girlfriend's a yoga instructor, she'll tell you like, you are not supposed to sit in this stretch. You are supposed to be activating these muscles like when you're in warrior... I mean, that's an important thing that they need to reiterate to a lot of people that go to these classes. Yes, and I've been to some great studios and the yoga instructors will talk about that quite a bit. But by doing that, by activating or being active in these positions that put you into stretch, you do increase functional flexibility because you're connecting to the stretch. So this is why I say, and why I've always said yoga, if you're trying to pick a structured like class type setting and you're like, look, I like to take a class, I want to take something structured, but I also want to work on flexibility and mobility. There's nothing better than yoga for that specific thing. If you want something specific to yourself, prime pro or something individualized like that will blow it away. Just because it's going to be based on your body, not just following a class or whatever or a series of poses. Can you spell that his R-E-Y, what's the R-E-Y-D? What is it? D-E-E. Work on that shoulder mobility for those strikes. You know what I mean?  Like, he's legit. Even his Instagram is a picture of him getting ready to foam fight. I've been foaming. And he looks like a handsome, cool dude. I want to know all the terminology, you know, all the little stuff. He foamed me. Yeah, exactly. I think I want to let him, I think I want to let him call in. You smite me. Well, let's keep going. Don't say that yet. I just want to ask, I want to know how this, I want to hear this short. I'm curious as well. Right. Yeah, just call in. I don't know, have you ever met a foam fighter? I found a whole website devoted to it and Realm locators.  Hold on a second. Of course they would call the locations Realm. Realm locator. Yeah. Wow. It's called Bellagarth. Is there a medieval combat society? Wow. And now how many, is there a lot dug out? Oh man, they're all over.  Oh my God. All over the United States, all over the world. Maybe we should compete.  Ah, yeah. I don't think, I don't think just I'll be like, I'll be like the mountain. No, you'd be aggressive. Ah, yeah. Can we, can we please do a a YouTube vlog series? Justin goes LARPing. Yes. No, not LARPing. Foam fighting. My character is going to be a Viking. Justin goes home. Pillage is, I just pillage. Raping pillage? Raping pillage. I don't have no structure. It's all anarchy. I get off a boat and just pillage. Listen, Don't make tries to kill me, but if they can't, I'm the Viking. You're going to get kicked out. All right. Next one. I am the axe wielding Viking. All right. Stop throwing a monkey in the wrench. Quick commercial break, you guys. We keep getting asked all the time, how can I support the mine pump family? Here's one of the best ways you guys can. You guys love that chimeric coffee that we have. Chimeric coffee with a K. You go to chimericcoffee.com, put in the discount code MINEPUMP for 10% at the checkout. Also, if you guys want to know how I have this luxurious beard and you want one too, go to bigtopbeardcompany.com, put in the discount MINEPUMP again, but this time for 33% off. Also, you guys, if you guys have not tried Ben Greenfield's new bars out there, fantastic.  Go check it out. All right. Our next question is from Indiana Back Dock. He's heard you mention old man strength. Are you referring to endurance or power? Neither. Old man strength. It's just strength. It's just pure strength. And I think, and this is, we're speculating, by the way. No, a lot of times it's real. Well, no, listen, before you get nerd out here. Here we go. People have said old man strength forever.   Think of your speakers, like your muscles. And even if you don't have very big speakers, because you don't train them all the time and stimulate them all the time, you have small speakers, you might have small looking muscles, you're extremely strong because you have this strong amplifier. And that's just because your body just communicates better. Right. You've been speaking to those muscles for decades. Yeah, force is the communication of cells is like Dr. Andrew Spina talks about, and it just makes so much sense. You've built this communication system that's so efficient and loud all over those years of constantly doing things that taught it the most efficient pathway to achieve the objective. Now, of course, this could totally be overridden by being super sedentary and not moving and stuff. Yeah, you could be sending all the wrong patterns. Yeah, if you're 50 and you're totally inactive, well, you're not going to be as strong as you were when you were 20. And it's really like, you know who it is? It's normally the carpenter dad. That's what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying? The plumber dad, the dad that has been physically active for so many years. Or someone who's been lifting.  Shakes your hand and almost like breaks your bones.  In boxing, there's a saying that the last thing to leave a boxer is his power. Right, you lose speed right away. Now, part of that isn't because they're necessarily stronger, but because, again, they know their body so well, they're able to place that punch and generate strength because of their technique very, very well. They've been greasing the groove for 50 years. Think about that. You know what I'm saying? They've been greasing the groove for 50 years. I'll tell you what right now.  I've seen this in person. I've seen this happen in person. If you go on YouTube, there's many videos of these like 50, 70-year-old or 60-year-old boxers just putting kids to sleep because they're testing them out. I mean, they're in their bodies that whole time. They're very connected to it. They know how to move it. They know how to generate the most force. It happens naturally. And here's a good example of what we're talking about. You could take a 17-year-old giant kid who just went through puberty. He's 200 pounds. Looks like a phenom, right? And you watch them move and stuff and they're goofy. And they're not goofy because they're goofy people. It's because they literally just grew their body and they're getting used to it. You see this with dogs.  That's like great Danes and Masters are like this. It's funny to watch them as puppies when they're like seven months old and they're like 200 pounds. Like I used to mess with our master that we have. I would push on him and he'd be all tripping over his feet and stuff and he's just big and clumsy.  How clumsy would you be with that new body?  So although that you have lower testosterone and although you may actually have smaller muscles, that strength is there and sometimes better, many times it's better. Well, you made a good point. I'm glad you said that too when I mentioned that, is that it does matter that they've been using it, right? Because you could also have the other extreme of somebody who is disconnected. And because typically as we age, if you're not using it, you lose it, right? Real fact.  So old man strength really applies to those physical fit dads that have been lifting and exercising and doing stuff their whole life.  So my dad is a great example of this. And although now he's got lots of pain throughout his body because of just the hard labor he does. So it's my stepdad's. Since he was a child, right?  But I remember probably seven years ago, so he was like 49 or 50, he would come to my jujitsu classes. So I was training in Brazilian jujitsu. I'm in my late 20s or early 30s. My dad is active in the sense that he does construction work or whatever. So that's his exercise, right? He comes to these jujitsu classes and he has a judo background. So my dad was a kid. He did a lot of judo, but then he didn't do anything as an adult.  I can't move him. He feels like he's a statue. And especially in the stand-up because of his judo background, I remember there was this one dude that took the class. It was just weighed about 300 pounds. He was a Canadian pro football player who would come down and then he took jujitsu. So he was a white belt. He didn't have any technique, but he's a big dude and he was remarkably mobile. The guy could do cartwheels and all kinds of stuff, just a big athlete. And we were all doing stand-up for throws or whatever. So my dad's got technique, but he's also got this silly old man strength, especially in his hands, which he's always used a lot for his whole life.  And my dad can't throw him because he's so big. They break grips.  He took his, you know how you do that? Like interlock fingers?  The whole class would just bust it up laughing. And then he just, and then he would always mention old man strength, iron grip, he called him, an old man strength. And I was like, man, I had to grow- No, it's true. Did you watch, did you guys watch the ultimate fighter season where Rhonda Rousey was on there? Her mom comes down and like whoops up on everybody. Oh no, that's cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Old woman strength. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it applies to men and women. It's not just a man thing. It's just if you've been- That's actually very true.     That's very humbling. Try it, stay active. Hey, check it out. Thank you for stopping by. Yeah, we post a new video every single day on our YouTube channel. If you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel yet, what are you doing with your life? The name of the channel is Mind Pump TV, MPTV, subscribe. Also, if you want to ask us a question that we answer in an episode like this one, the place to do it is on Instagram and the page to do it on is Mind Pump Media. We all have personal pages on there as well. Mine is Mind Pump Sal. Justin's Mind Pump Justin. Adam is Mind Pump Adam. And Doug is Mind Pump Doug. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maths Anabolic, Maths Performance, and Maths Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. 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