will be the dominant Computing architecture because of this before the fragmentation between the risk 5 variants and instructions Sets and stuff. We don't know how that's going to settle out yet because it's still changing before this day But before we get on to the onto that question Let me just say that one of my favorite places to watch what's going on That's going to be relevant to the way that cloud images are being built is the work that's being done in the vert team that Karen runs and And a lot of the things that start start to come back to like what's what's being? added to the QEMU KVM Code code bases makes a huge difference in terms of like what we can support so I mean I would like my my My my goal would be to make sure you know to ensure that that KVM when you Support support is there and it's there in a way that we can we can all take advantage of and importantly You know as I was saying with the fragmentation of the instruction sets Whatever gets implemented in QEMU and that the distributions and all of us rely on The hardware vendors have to do can't really be the other way around if the hardware vendors start stratifying the the the the because risk 5 Ties a bi to instruction combinations so if your instruction combination isn't correct you cannot run the application and so we can't have a situation where Something calls itself 64-bit risk 5 and you can't run it because you don't know Like when it tries to come up. It's like oh all the instructions are missing So we can't run like there has to be a guaranteed baseline that everybody's going to support for that end Like even today now with fedora risk 5 being bootstrapped There are two other separate efforts going on right now that are doing the same bootstrap For different instruction combinations and that's the part that scares me because If we wind up being in a situation where we have to deal with the different instruction subsets that are not compatible risk 5 is going to fail Because well can't figure out how to work with it. I want to make sure that we all know we're on a tangent Yes, I mean we are we definitely have right hold but let me go back and say the tenure comment was a Patterson quote Yeah, so put that in context. Yeah, and also that You know new architectures require a lot of work under the hood from all the distro vendors upstream kernel enablement and That in itself is what actually causes a standardization Yeah, and helps prevent some of the potential fragmentation. Sure. So that's the beauty of open source when you're working things and and it's open hardware definition and Because it's in the open that means that the definitions will evolve with a little bit of common sense from the community sprinkled all over it So I'm not really too afraid of it going off on a potentiary on 50 different tangents Which it could it could for all the edge devices, but rel is never going to run on those devices Sure, so it and Amazon's never going to have to worry about supporting them So for the enterprise server cited the equation, I feel really competent Confidence that things will Consolidate and come into focus because of the community effort I mean it's everyone here and everyone beyond here that helps Create risk 5 and helps create Linux and and that's the beauty of open source So to tie it back to fedora cloud as we're talking about for this to bring this tangent back to the nose I don't care just about the enterprise servers or in just the cloud but I have to care about I care about the whole cloud experience down to the person's computer and so You know whether it's risk 5 or whether it's arm or whether it's you know running a desktop Or if it's doing kubernetes or whatever or s390 or as Mainframes are special. I'm gonna that one's getting put aside But like when you when we're talking about a fedora cloud experience for that I Don't talk about just Amazon I talk about just I also talk about like the desktop that someone's working on to develop the cloud workload and I talk about the the the Experience of going between the two and I and all of those other things So there has to be an underlying level of consistency at all those levels You can't have an experience that only works in the server side It has to work locally too and that's the piece that You know with arm it took a really really really long time It took twice as long as it did to get the server parts the server parts were easy getting everything else was harder and and I am very happy and willing and optimistic about supporting risk 5 for fedora cloud But we have to have all those pieces in place to make it work And again, it'll be because we have all those component parts in the KVM when you code base and we'll be looking for that that's what we work on and and And that means, you know that means dealing with a lot of special problems like like, you know, how do you get I mean? On cloud instances one of the things that we worry about is like how do you get a dump, right? I mean how do you get a memory dump? What happens to the program crashes? Yeah, where do you where do you get your? Yeah, where do you get your debug? Those are and that's actually a surprisingly difficult problem it is but but we want to be there to help you and anyone who wants to You know to build specific specifically cloud images Our cloud-like images the the opportunity to To have our help and to be a part of the part of our you know part of our experience and part of our Really part of our team We're open come join us if you're interested in the stuff actually we need you to come and join us Anything else I think we can call it Thanks for being here. Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Lenka. This is David And we work for Red Hat in the community platform Engineering team our colleague Patrick was supposed to be here with us, but unfortunately couldn't make it Today would like to talk to you about How we authorize open ship hosted projects to the community members in Fedora Why did we need to write a solution for authorizing open ship hosted project Well a couple of years ago. We had a community face in open ships cluster called community shift most of you probably remember it Please up your hand or remember a community many many people That was supposed to serve for people to deploy test apps learn experiment get their hands dirty and This cluster was retired as part of the data move of the data center move in 2020 and Then in Q3 2022 Community platform engineering was tasked with solving a number of blockers holding up the Re-release of the community shift cluster This talk is not about community shift as the cluster is not ready yet to be presented to the community We're still trying to work through some legal blockers Which we as developers cannot influence But while working on the community shift There were a couple of areas to solve and I would like to focus on the on the one on the Authorizing one we needed the administration of projects to be self-service and with no or as little added work For the Fedora infra team as we had a lot of tickets being opened Regularly request and access the systems We also needed a way to sing Fedora account system and the cluster And we needed this to happen automatically Apart of that we also needed the for the community shift purposes We needed to solve the storage and the quota, but that's not the aim this work of this talk And the Fedora account system API requires Kerberos authentication. So we needed a keyed up We decided to use the Ansible operator SDK Which provided us the structure of a Kubernetes controller then That we then completed with Ansible and Python that provided us the functions we needed So operator SDK is a Kubernetes native application that consists of two parts first is a container that handles the interface between OpenShift and operator and Reacts to received events the second one is the Ansible role and playbooks code which is run as required These operators can then be managed by an open source toolkit called operator framework We named our operator Community shift authorization It connects the fast json is all of you familiar with what fast json is all right, so for those who don't know I'll Resume it. It's a Jason gateway the query free IPA built for the Fedora account system so the operator Connects there the through a key tap file and Retrieves all the community shift dash something named groups and Group members Then it connects to the OpenShift API and ensures that all the data is synchronized So it's a one-way sync from the fuss to the OpenShift API Well, then we set it to reconcile every 20 minutes So it's looping every 20 minutes that can be changed if we need it later Well, why did we go with the operator SDK? What advantages does create an operator offer? Well several things SDK is a framework that does a lot of things for us all the structure the loop logic All the when we run the operator SDK in it. It just provides us all the three of the files and the molecule tests and we only set the reconcile period and Also, immediately, we have access to any module that Ansible can run Including custom modules that we can write ourselves which is what we did as part of the initiative and It's also reusable once we created the community shift authorization operator We realized that we could reuse the solution for any other project and that project emerged soon after It was called fast to discourse Faster discourse synchronizes The Fedora account system group membership the Fedora discussion, which is a discourse instance I saw that Matthew Miller will have a talk about discourse after after the lunch and In the beginning of the fast to discourse there was a ticket from Matthew who got inspired by David solution of authorization of community shift authorization operator to synchronize the fast groups and their members with the community shift cluster and He was thinking about using the same technical solution to sync fast groups with the discourse groups and David will now describe the technical details So sorry, it's gonna probably be a little bit of a piece of what we already said So the the fast to discourse operator. It's very similar to the community shift authorization operator So, I mean we still have the Fedora account system. It's our single source of truth It allows us to provide fine-grained access to various systems in the Fedora community So for example in this far as discourse is concerned. We can do things like members that are people that are in a particular group might have particular privileges for posting in a Certain area on discussion And again, it's a one-way sync. So basically from now on if You want to add people to a particular area in discourse. You need to do it through noggin and basically IPA and Basically, that's a count stuff Fedora project at org He searched for your particular group you add or remove users there and then this operator then will automatically synchronize the changes over Don't do it the other way. Like if you make changes to discourse, it'll be overwritten by the operator Yeah, and to activate this then You add you activate it on a new group in discussion by basically creating the group So if you create the group in in discourse the operator then will begin synchronizing providing that Yeah, the group exists in discourse and it's identically named to a group and fast Yeah, and basically this approach then we've taken could be used for other services in the future Yeah, so on the on the last slide It's a little demo basically it just shows you on the left you have the the Fedora account system fast and Here we're just adding a user to it and in the background. Sorry on the right hand side, then you can just see the So this is the community shift authorization operator You can see that that user then will be added to the particular group in in open shift. So in the future Every project in community shift will have its own group in fast and basically the sponsors can Decide in a self-service manner who who gets access to it themselves and it doesn't involve anything related to Fedora Infra you don't have to open tickets completely self-service Yeah, so basically that's all in theory as we said because the community shift cluster is not officially released and Perhaps in flock 2024 or something. We'll be able to give a workshop on how to get access and get on board it into community shift Yep, so just a quick lightning talk and just brief overview of what we did But if you're interested in digging deeper, there's a couple of resources there I'm just thinking yeah, the links to the two operators if you want to look in so it's all them It's entirely Ansible and Python, so it's pretty pretty readable to most developers That's pretty much all from us So if you have any questions, please free feel free to ask but we've only got a 15 minute slot So we don't want to take up any any time. Yeah, please enjoy the rest of flock So if you have any questions I can encourage anyone to look into the operator SDK and especially the Ansible operators that you can produce because You can pretty much access anything in the open shift API and it's a really nice framework Potentially rather than creating or rolling your own API. You could just use and extend open shifts or kubernetes Yeah, and the operator SDK is a really nice way of doing it. So That's it Thank you. Okay well Before then that and everything Thanks, thanks a lot for be here Well, we have a nice presentation From Mexico City and Mexico the country we are Fedora Mexico a local community From Mexico and this is our presentation growing together and how we Rebuild this community I'm Alex Callejas Let me present my team Alex Acosta Hasim Anaya and Ivan Chabelo So let's start with this Okay In Mexico, we have a lot of communities a lot of developers communities and open source communities, but All communities very very special. We have a Lot of technical people very very very important in Mexico and In the first years This don't happen. So Let's Share with you how how we can do this thing Okay This is an old graphic, but it represents all the active members by country in Fedora so Mexico have 45 active Fedora conti contributors but in our community in this moment, we have 1068 members on meetup and 516 members on the telegram group is very very huge so in the main groups We have Mexican contributors like ambassadors advocates packages and Okay, this time from story time we have to share with you or journey and or Learned lessons All right Well, as you have my already guessed I am the older guy in the group Probably in the conference, but well at least in the group and I'm the oldest and I'm also the the ambassador I'm not Thank you Also my my Membership or my fast account is pretty old. I joined Fedora in 2008 And well at that time it was a very small group. We have Like eight registered ambassadors, but only three of us where I were actively contributing to the project From those three or from those eight. I'm the only one who remains from that time What they were interest interesting times then because All of the events were managed and driven by the Fedora latam community which was bright and Extended at that time, but that also represented some challenges like difficulties in in the logistic for budget and for shipping. I mean Concentrating the swag in Latin America was Asian challenge to chip to Mexico. I personally live 250 miles out of the North American border and and I was Getting a hard time Having a hard time getting the swag from Latin America, right? This is Something that not necessarily a nature right now, but in that time the Mexico Red Hat office was just a commercial and support office and They they they was nearly to serial involvement with the community and We also have mostly talks at university and colleges that photo is from Food Contempe and you might recognize some of them Some of the of the people who participated in that time Tatica, Nucho, Neville. It's in the photo Good times In 2014 one of our founder members go and boss and ride to Managua, Nicaragua to the food con and there's where Our story start, but how we do it how we do it to get this community well Sorry Okay for the next part one of the main points to grow the community in Mexico was the Communication across all the country across all the people and one of the main points is the telegram group It's an official federal channel and we have more than 500 516 today Registering the channel One of the points that we grown with the channel is the moderation. We have a console We have every one is on a check-in area All today the code of conduct the community and Providing hub providing support providing advice Everyone can join Participate with the community and from this point we Manage all the me all the meet-ups. We have a monthly meet-up one of the most active in Latin America All the communication is Born there in the channel. Okay the next step that we have is Create a meeting of group Fedora Mexico In this time of the On the history we have support from Red Hat they Be led or Meetings and in the office so we can do Very very large meetings and We find the best speakers and topics of general interest different different people all to share His knowledge Like a set three we participate in community events Generate or own events like a release party a federal women's day and others community events like open source contributor summit Cost and Latin American flea software installation festival known as please all In this community events we have a huge participation of a community and we have a Very very nice events in the Red Hat Mexico office That the participation in the community events we go to Guadalajara to talk about how the people can contribute to To the Fedora project We do a workshop where learn to the people how to Contribute to the project since Translation and report books and packaging There's a lot of people there was a nice nice nice event And the Fedora women's day from 2019 we have a huge participation from the university the biggest university in Mexico and participation internationally because Tática Participate with remote with us and this girl Susanna he she's in in German in Germany, so was a Very nice event too. So We have participated in 12 out of 20 edition of the Southern California Linux Expo Expo, which is one of the it is the largest community Run open source and free software a conference in North America It's not it's not a completely Fedora Mexico credit for this but we have participated and it is important because as you know There is a huge Spanish speaking population in that area actually it is the second one Next to Mexico City. It is the second speaking Largest Spanish speaking population in in in the whole whole world. So This last edition we we earned the most memorable boot Fedora earned it. Yeah Because It is awarded to to to the voted by the by the attendees For the most I Don't want to use the wrong term, but it was like a more memorable experience for them So this is something that I I would like to it's because we're memorable There is something that I would like to brag about and this is a photo that that was English Ivan and myself were interviewed for one of the digital News news site Hasim Ivan myself Ruben if you recall him he's he's living in the Netherlands, but he was an active Ambassador we have all participated in in this conference as well Okay, but not always we have a happy place of course We have a lot of issues because you know the people have different ideas and the first issue that we found was the modulation and we talk about all these People like the Chrisman we are our friends Yeah, we've had Some trolling cases in the telegram channel There's some I don't know why people that use arch Linux or our clinics like to I don't know give us a hard time but we try to Well, I try to be Like count the tree Don't get mad and ask the other guys to calm the waters, you know Because I'm a little explosive and I'm supposed to be a moderator. So I always say okay Hey guys, there's someone out here saying that blah blah blah blah, you know stuff and We try we try to focus on the technical we try to focus on the social we try to focus on being friends and I think that the most important part is that we try to help each other if you enter the this telegram channel and you're a newbie and you're asking like the the Most basic question, you're not you're not gonna get the RTFM answer either a seasoned expert is gonna answer you or Also a newbie is gonna answer you and there's gonna start a conversation There's times I'm really happy about that because there's times that a new guy Helps a new guy and they end up helping each other and I just read it, you know I didn't need to be in that at that time. You just say well, it's cool. They they're wrong but they are They are finding the truth together and then someone comes in and helps him or I help but we try to to be very open for for the new guys and and Because most of the time they come really really excited and Have you I don't know if you if you have been on on more more technically hardcore oriented communities in which You feel like you you you shouldn't answer you shouldn't ask stuff Because they're gonna they're gonna think you're dumb or stuff like that We try we try to create the environment for the newbies to to ask them everything and And we are there to help also Oh The code of conduct I don't even I don't even haven't read it, but it's easy. Just don't be an a-hole, right? It's just like that and well At what point at some point, I don't know how or why I was talking to my friend Renich and he's a musician and he's also a musician and We started saying hey, we should he lives in in some area in the Jalisco state. I don't remember the place and We were talking about doing music in Linux and we all know is not like the most pleasant experience of experiences, right? It's still an area of opportunity and But he he was using a software He's not free software, but it runs on Linux Mac and and and Windows called Bitwig I think it comes from from some guys that got off of Ableton or something like that and And he said hey, let's let's do a song and I don't remember if I or or he he agreed to to To do the free software something Spanish and So he he he is a guitar player and a keyboard player so he wrote the melodies and and the guitars and And and and the drum beats and he sent me everything and I recorded the some vocals And I send them to him and then he sent them back and so back and forth It's not today. It's I like to say that it's not the Ideal but It's a it's a very nice community experience to make music remotely Only using Linux That's that's the main point and that that that's why that's why we we chose the free software song because which we were trying to prove that you can do music in Linux and I Shouldn't say it, but it came out pretty well Would you guys like to listen to it? Yeah, yeah this this effort a how about a lot of All the community join to perform this video some guys do some things This this girl Cassiopeia She Do the the musical video for this song in Blender Yeah, she's she's a leader of the Blender community in Mexico and and we send them with it We sent her the the song and she did I don't know what but it came out pretty well and and an animation around the sound of and the frequencies of the of the song and The thing and and just before you you press play I want to I want to I want to be very very emphatic about this We were we were asking which in which community shall we share this stuff and Like I don't know at unison. We all agreed We should we should share this in the in the Fedora Telegram channel because that's the place where where where we hang out and We are sure that that's the place in which this is going to be welcomed So that that was it like the premiere or something like that We did it on the Fedora Mexico Telegram channel. So here at DJ you guys want to sing You said now John Everything is in Spanish so Feel free to translate in your heads Let's have those pounds again. I was going to sing it But we couldn't afford to the band for the band to travel here and perform Yeah Well Where we are and where we are going in this moment. We have improved packaging skills in our community. We have some people do want To pass to to get as packages. So we are Perform a packaging workshop, but we found that the documentation needs Yeah, some some members of of we always we're always trying to to to we're always asking our members to try to package or to enter the experience of being a packageer on the Fedora ecosystem and But we found some some And I like to call them areas of opportunity not problems Are the the documentation for new is in this area is a little confused and it's it changed tends to change over time in English and Might be our fault. Oh, it's not we don't make it Pair to pair with Spanish. So sometimes Your browser shows you my browser shows me my the web page in Spanish and the web page in English is different More more. It's a newer web page. So might be that we have to coordinate and help with these translations but It's a it in in general, it's a little hard for new packages to learn the whole process like Creating your fast account and then going and download the tools and learning the workflow Because it's a weird workflow, but it's nice. I like it. I am a packageer but if you're used to Just sending the patch via email. You're gonna find like that is kind of bureaucratic, which is not but I'm saying a perspective of one of the guys that that is trying to become a packageer Actually helping for for LibreOffice We all let me let me let me just tell tell this as part of the communities. We are also Helping it's not this is not only Fedora Mexico, but members of Fedora Mexico are helping On the development of LibreOffice mostly for Mexican stuff, but there's now some expertise around writing the code for that huge project and We're also creating packages around the stuff we're we're creating because they It takes time for patches to to get accepted so we created our own RPMs and and Trying to we're finding stuff that we can contribute to Fedora and and that's when one of my friends had a little problem With the onboarding to be a packageer and just he was she was saying hey, man I'm just a five line patch Why do I have to do all this? Oh, you know why I told them you know why because you're gonna contribute more and If you know the workflow, it's gonna be easy like water for you. Well, at least for me it's easy I Confess that I have to open the manual, but Still it's it's easy So then we have implemented adoption of package program You know command training the package between members of the community looking for I impact package as mentioned by by Ivan and other Challenges we have is supporting the growth of federal atom for us is very very important collaboration across borders because Federal atom was all our inspiration to create the federal group. So now we want to Get back the favor Help now that we Our brothers need need us. So we are part of this great family of Latin America countries we need a support and to consolidation of Federal atom with technical support in federal Spanish channels and maybe sharing knowledge in remote face-to-face talks That's it that is We that we do it and that we want to do it so I Don't know if you have some questions or comments No questions. Oh In Spanish or English? So given the power, I don't know if you've played with chat GPT It's actually quite good in translating From one language to another and I'm wondering if more more Companies should use it leverage it for Translating documentation into Spanish. Yeah Chinese etc. It's actually quite good I was surprised how good it is in Spanish and Italian and Irish It does a really good job Great, thank you. Thanks Yeah, yeah, we have a small discussion one day in the telegram group because Someone someone asked to check it GPT how we can install some Package tool on Arch Linux and the process is correct But that package don't exist. So we don't have a lot of confidence with Yeah, yeah We know but We don't trust It is it needs validation, but yeah, it is it is a good idea Yeah, because most companies their Complaint is and the world revolves around English and there's this Assumption that you have to speak English to work in IT and to use products Yeah, which is really bad. Most of the planet does not speak English Yeah, and we should have documentation in all languages. Yeah in our talks we always talk with the young people Don't worry about the English. You know English your operating system is in English You all all that you are practice if you have a Linux machine, so And there's there's something but in in Mexico for example, we have We just don't speak Spanish. We speak a lot of languages a lot of native languages and And Everything in computers is either in English or in Spanish and there's there's a barrier for for native communities to to use technology because it's not being Shown in their language or at least their mother tongue They have to like in head in head translate or stuff like that the guys at Mozilla They are doing translations of the browser to now at and and that's that's pretty cool And and for a week when you said that I just remember for a while I have been trying to ask those guys to join the Fedora community and start At least checking out if how hard is to translate the operating system and documentation to to native languages Another question comment. Oh We have a If you wanna this you need to ask you just came for that. Yeah, you need to sing that the free software song. Yeah I'll I'll ask one so On the earlier side you talked around some of your future steps and trying to build a stronger Latam community Yeah, or across across borders. My question is From the Fedora project side, are there resources? Infrastructure tools that would help you do these things that Fedora could provide Just wondering how could we help you? Yeah, we do a lot of things We love the idea for example the Spanish channel in matrix. This was our first step maybe have a Bridge between the telegram channel because it's Very very very interesting the talk all day Technical technical talk all all day in this channel and maybe if you see in matrix you can All the work and see what we are doing so, yeah, I believe we believe that the this first step to provide us a Spanish channel was will be will be very very good for for start and then with Luis and Jose we can coordinate to do some remote talks or maybe they can Go to Mexico or some of all people go to Panama or another countries and I don't know They win we need to Restablish that friendship that all we have all this time We were discussing with Luis previously that we also are First of all, we need to identify the communities and the individuals that are active and contributing and are willing to reactivate What in the past? It was a huge community all over Latam. It is not the case in this these times, but Yeah, I think as we need to resolve all the issues, but we can do that Right. Yeah Step by step one by day. Yeah, there's there's something beer money, please of course and if we Could we have a food con in Cancun or something like that? Why not? Yeah, maybe celebrate these events in Mexico or you know someplace well in Mexico. Yeah Yeah, maybe the next block of I don't know who knows Yeah, we can pull it off. We are looking at that and another question or comment I'm gonna do double duty of asking a question and operating the camera So my question for you is Do you see any other open-source communities that are very active in Latin America that yeah? Yeah, we are we we see a lot of communities in Mexico Python communities C-serving communities Blender community Ross community they have a Lot of of of events and we don't go with them our first step is try to get this Communication and participating in dead in their events and everything, but yeah In Mexico are a lot of communities working and they they inspired us But there are also companies that are Increasingly looking this integration for with communities like the one that that organized the event that that Alex showed that Open source contribution Comet that that that is a that was organized this that one was organized by a but a company but looking to integrate and and to activate the communities This event is growing and taking it. It's a very very huge event. Maybe One hundred or five hundred people. Yeah Yeah, a lot of people in Mexico and for everything Google genome Python Everything you want is there, but Fedora know That's why we want to participate in all kinds of events in everything Yeah, I also have given talks to the goal-length community in front with the Ross community and I always do the Like I come come join the Fedora. Yeah. Yeah I know from my perspective I work for a university and doing open science and open scholarship work and Much of the world actually looks towards Latin American Universities and institutions as like leaders in open science because there's been so many really successful and like well-built initiatives Throughout Latin America. So I know it's like now, you know Fedora and open science There's some projects, but I thought it was a cool connection looking at the work Yeah, a lot of people in the universities use use some distribution in Linux When we go there and say, you know who creates a genome What's created in Mexico, of course Of course Yeah, obviously for example Yeah Very common and Miguel Miguel de Casa. Yeah Yeah, and also not only universities, but research centers They they try to use and I don't know why but Might be CERN uses CentOS I think and might they might be influencing other there's work If for example in Chihuahua a very prestigious research center and those guys use Fedora and and and I From time to time I bumped into into the those PhD guys and in the bar and they start giving me hard times of This package I will help Be like that But they they are enthusiasts and and but they're doing science hard science with with Fedora Yeah, even the the government have a lot of projects with open source and Linux. Yeah any other questions or Comments not really a question, but yeah Thanks for your presentation. It was amazing like you're doing some really cool stuff and I love the energy I think like you can see all the passion and energy you're putting into that and We'll talk after I would really be happy to have to have like maybe Fedora Coro's workshop or like Joshua Levins and have someone from the team come and talk about Do a workshop or stuff like that? Great for sure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you anything Well, gracias amigos. All right Yeah, we have some some stickers from Mexico and We have two coffee mugs to coffee mugs with a nice logo to My didn't do it for us. So maybe the first person who My name is Peter boy Yes, you may see and just about myself and my relation to Fedora server. I I'm a scientist at the University of Bremen and Graduated in sociology far away from server, but as minor I had applied mathematics, which was a academic home for computer science those time Well and once the time be managed with our Institute to apply For a so-called accident center. It's a special funding in Germany the effect was you got a lot of money and You got a lot of independence from our central university IT But the obligation to do it of our And because I had that dual Qualification our colleagues things. Okay, it's job for you as a side job. Of course if you need everyone to do such Fortunately, I got some compensation in teaching but I had a lot of money and Nice side job It was we started with visit AI exit the IBM version But soon the interboxes got more powerful and we started with Linux and I had to Check which she looks At which which she looks distribution. Okay, it's There was somehow redhead Looked for me with all these advantages. I know I knew from IBM It's a good interface a good support everything like that. So I decided for redhead unfortunately Short after we did that ref redhead dropped the academic license program So we had despite a lot of money, but not so much Fortunately, we got scientific in looks and we use that in we'll use the combination of scientific in looks and fedora server the classical case of usage Scientific in looks for the stable version and in looks and fedora to get the latest software sometimes ago scientific in looks died as well and I Had the option sent to us or fedora and I decided for Fedora and put everything to Fedora server edition It was in that time so I had a small bunch of 20 about 20 servers boxes in Fedora server edition and some Virtual machines on top Well, it's my special Experience you had no any problem with Fedora. Everything works fine. Just one case We upgraded the release and the colleague of mine saw a strange message something as long But he was saying okay. It worked forever Don't worry be happy But afterwards you were not happy. This is something to do. So I Think we at Fedora server should build in some quirks. So Admins keep watching and not to be sure everything works fine. Well, that's my personal experience with Fedora and I started then end of 2020 when Matthew was started to reboot the server working group and And I had this stranger idea to spend our internal Fedora documentation to Fedora instead to build up a long website and started with documentation Well, and somehow I ended up as a coordinator for all the business we have No, I do okay So what is Is it Sorry Glasses I can't but probably first the power some Remarks about the current state of Fedora server edition and some information what's going on and At the end what we are planning to do for the next time and Well, the first thing is a working group we had a reboot in 2020 and Currently we have officially 70 members according to the working group relations for Fesco We have two weekly meetings and we have it constantly about the seven the last two years So I think the reboot if it's But when for when fine Well, we have nine members who in the soon had two and a half years have regularly regularly Contributed and discussed specifically contributed some work and Two members who some sometimes Discussing well and six members who constantly do nothing over the last one and a half year and Well, it's probably not no problem But anyhow we have just to see how to handle these cases I think and we have the big advantage that we are a mixture of old hands so to speak members who Were part of the working group from the beginning and a lot of newbies So as me who try to catch up and to carry it forward All in at the end I think the reboot was a success and we have now a quite active server Working group, but the other thing is the addition We update our technical our technical specifications And we are shifting from the previous base server role as a UDF base server role to Ansible Support or specifically supported services. There are services which should be Well, what is relevant so in currently is not but Maybe we have to introduce some of them as blocking or some kind of blocking Services Well, we discussed our goals We discussed the issue if you are all goals are to old now over Come to something between but we stayed with them. So it's not these are still Stick with the technology with the technology technology which supports various options not just one Which does not just one option to this specific specifically hyphen hyped in the discussion And we are stick with a server which is easily to can easily be can easily be adapted to different needs different Not very different needs different structures different contexts So we will stay to be a multi-purpose server And that means we will stay at the near future with package-based distributions installations, I think Nevertheless, of course We are looking for what's what's the development is and we are looking for new new New or nearly new use cases. So we may adopt server or some distribution media is to new UK new use cases Some things I have to look at and And I think it's not so bad with our goals If you look at the development past over the last year, we have a constantly grow of Update as the graph is the number of DNF updates per month. It may be a better Figure to indicate the usage of server as is near download Numbers so we have been a constant growth. I think we are on the right path. So to speak Yes, we have a growing demand and if you look at the Numbers which Matthew presented yesterday was it. Yes with the fedora server, we have still a good amount of users In relation to other traditions in relation to other parts of the fedora Distribution, so I think I meant at the moment over the time being we can do what we are doing Well, what's going on? A constant task is dog's improvement and If you looked at the con commit numbers, it was the last it's the last year. Yes Compared to other additions, we are not that bad We have What is it? We have the second most. No the third most. Okay The commitments and actual updates of our documentation and I think we are a good way to improve that further But of course if someone of you would like to write some documentation everyone is welcome And We have a lot of things to do we are not We have no lack of tasks to do we have a long list here as you see but the main task for the next future is to Bring up or to get up our unsupported support project because it's the main the main issue of our product The product demand and if yes, what is it's product requirement document? Yes And it is the main section in our technical specification, but unfortunately we didn't we didn't Get around it in the last year And we have to review our installation media. I think that's the last time the installation media Reviewed is probably eight years or so ago. There was there were some minor changes But about but after eight years, maybe it's a good idea to Do to review with the issue? There is no actual no problem. I think nobody's complaining about it, but nevertheless, there are some strange issues on it which may be Deleated and there are some new Ideas which you can or shouldn't do it into it. I know Server Admin says there's strange people including me when someone comes near to a server it is Don't touch don't do anything as long as it works And that's the way we didn't touch the content the installation media until now Well, but sometimes you have to touch but we are Dependent on our own hands to make this work. I say because I'm I Try hard. I had a lot of hard times to produce our new Virtual machine images and that beast called what is it in the factory? It was not so easy to get up and running and I think this is a installation media. It's much more complicated Well, then you have some upcoming projects The first is in Fedora server the virtualized environment Until now we were too much for cues answer Fedora on hard hardware and probably virtual machines on our own heart So Fedora based hardware But nowadays there are not nowadays since some years There are a lot of providers which offer not only cloud in cloud system but also offers virtual private servers or dedicated private servers how you will name it and At the moment, we don't have anything to offer for those But I got a lot of questions about how to install Fedora server on one of these Offering so The idea is to produce adjusted install images depending of the providers Own system and to create documentation how to do it Anyway, I made an initial initial post on the mailing list and I got a lot of response and questions and Demand to make it as fast as possible So I think there is a field where we can gain new new users. I hope so and The other thing is server on single board computers. It's a Well discussed item at the last years well We had a lot of inhibitions, but should we do with such a do-it-yourself thing in a In this Fedora server for production meant for production but we started to discuss the item and Find options to find ways how to use it in a meaningful way So we started to discuss criteria how to select one of the single board computers and There is some simple things as a solid case. So nothing It's me now fire extinguished Well, we tried to determine some selection criterion and we tried to determine some useful applications that and we find maybe applications with need of 24 7 operation and are less power consumptive, so it's maybe a way to offer these services in a economical useful way Like backup software backup server or server monitor or cluster monitor software or Cockpit gateway such things like that, which I don't need much computer power But need to have an uninterrupted operation. So it may be a useful. Maybe you have maybe a useful Use case for these kind of combination our valuable Fedora server is such a do-it-yourself device and the long term we are Looking to be a to get to a bit set up an economical energy efficient home server which offers a lot of services and Compensating what can use to be to compensate software limitations of commercial Nuts of network attached storage with their web interface which limits you a lot of When it limits you not to be used to be able to use a lot of Faith copy abilities which operating system of the network attached storage provides, but you can't access it Because of the web interface and you can't override it because the web interface overrides you overrides as soon as Start the box again. So that's So in short The plannings we are discussed or I have discussed in our server Double server working group. Yeah, that's it. Thank you Okay Just one question I I Used to run Fedora server on my email machine and what I have all my stuff and I had the problem that every six months. I had to to what not every but There's a there's a point in which the the distribution goes and end of life and It was a little it was hard to being Reinstalling in a remote environment and and eventually went went and Installed CentOS, but my my question is it do you guys have like a path of upgrading and avoiding this these types of problems Just as an example when you upgrade open LDAP The thing will not start if until you do the checks of the database and all that stuff. So Do you have a path for upgrade? Yes, it's a standard usually it's a standard upgrade path using the DNF system upgrade option and if you wait two or three weeks, I think we have a documentation how to set up an email server on Fedora server, so It may help you to set it up in a way. It doesn't interfere with update operations. I Can speak to that one a bit to Peter. I'm Adam Williamson the Fedora QA team lead I used to do the same thing running a mail server and I ran into a lot of the same issues probably you ran into So there tend to be just things when you upgrade a mail server where you know a server Thing has bumped to a new version and you need to change the config file So it won't run properly as something is getting denied by SE Linux that always happened There is a potential path there, which is that so for free IPA and Postgres we actually have test Those are blocking for server So we have release blocking tests for it and we actually have automation the tests that you can deploy a free IPA server And upgrade it to the next version and it will keep working as one So in theory if we make the new mail role release blocking if we decided that was an important enough requirement We could then also do the same for that, right? I only have the resources to devote to doing this work for things That are release blocking. I can't really do it for all the roles that aren't release blocking But that would probably be the best Way to improve that experience because yeah, I do know all the things you're talking about and it is painful Yeah Thanks You mentioned you did the answer I just must what did you have to do on the other side for answerable? I mean, what are they did it involve? I'm just a coordinator Well, we started with a with a model project so to speak to install Right right fly in a way that we can do it without an rpm using and Ansible to to to install it to install the system D infrastructure and okay and to maintain it and Well, the guy who was working on that project was a problem. He could he had to Lay it for some time, but he has two issues of wisely to To get while fly up and running with the best certificates. There's a current wild fly option version Which causes some troubles and here Problems to select from the many answer will skip to support while fly to support the one He needs so Yeah, we are If you could give us some advice some support, it's very helpful, I think But I'm not the person who do the work. It's a moment. That's the case we have and If you look at the fedora issue Get in park park you are Pagu however Is pronounced I think it's up to that We have an issue for that it is 64 I think you are 60 and I had it here it is Yes Yes, it's issue number 60. So just in case I'll admit to not having kept up with the the discussions around the Fedora server working group But can you help me understand the difference between the work that's being done by the door IOT folks? And the single-board arm computer work that the server group wishes to do I could be a little louder. I couldn't understand. Oh, sorry. I heard myself through the speakers Can you help me understand the difference between the the server working groups single-board arm computer thoughts and the work done by something like Fedora IOT Well, we are cooperating with the arm sick of course and Maybe our use case is different from IOP IOT. Sorry We want to assist or replace a network assess Network attached storage Whereas IOT Ames to a different Goal, I can't describe it exactly. I must say the only thing I Decided for me it's different and the same is true with the with our now with our Virtual environment project. We are not aiming at the cloud and not aiming at cloud services, but aiming at virtual virtual service which I run independently from any Administration service on well on on your hardware instead of mine. So I think it's different It's a different use case Okay, and if someone has some time to spend please join our working group We are friendly Been busy and good work people so And we need we need soft we need we need sense if you look at our project Thanks Good afternoon, how's everyone doing on day two of flock Whoo So we're going to go ahead and get started up here on the main stage. We've got the I should have had my my notes up here from the full name of the panel But we have the upstream collaboration and cooperation in the enterprise Linux ecosystem We have our four panelists and our moderator up here who will Matthew Miller who will do some introductions in a moment That's our our facilitator I just wanted to acknowledge first, you know generally with flock We really try to prioritize the diversity equate inclusion side of things and I realized that we try to avoid the Manals but due to a number of circumstances this year with travel and the logistics not the ideal but you know something I just wanted to acknowledge and Point out that it's something that we were aware of and I hope that we can continue to Bring more diversity to some of our panels that we have at flock But I'm really excited for the session and for what we have planned And I'm going to go ahead and hand it over to our Fedora project leader to kick us off. Thanks, man Hi, everybody. So Everybody in the room knows me. I'm Matthew. I am the Fedora project leader for the benefit of anybody who watching this for drama online I think we're planning to not have drama So you're going to be disappointed. Sorry But I hope people are walking out of the room now. Yeah I Thought I'd start a little bit by just talking about myself and why I'm here how I got to this because it's actually a little bit relevant I've been the project leader for 10 years But I've been involved in Fedora for a long before that and I got involved there by you know working in Building something called BU Linux, which was a downstream distribution of first Red Hat Linux and then of Fedora and of CentOS for some of our server systems. So I've been a rebuilder. So I kind of have say, you know I know I know what goes into this and I also really care a lot about Fedora and This seemed like an important conversation at the time. We're at right now This conference is a community conference. It's not a big corporate event so this is in some ways a little bit of a different thing because People here on stage are kind of speaking for their projects and normally we are all individuals so I wanted to start with Asking everybody to introduce themselves as who they are who they gotten how they got involved in open source separate from the project that they're working on and then a second round of you know kind of what hat you're wearing on stage and you what what What project you know how you're involved in the project that you're involved with so Go ahead and start. Oh wait. I also want to say thank you Neil for proposing this as a session here Yeah, absolutely, and I'm super happy that we're able to have these conversations and this while a little bit off you know Kilter I guess for for flock as a usual subject. I think it's an important conversation to have you So anyways, I'm Neil Hanlon. I got into open source Actually with with Greg with the form and project many moons ago writing a DHCP plugin for the company I was working for and trying to open source that and I think that's part of the process of Trying to open source things in the company. I was working for at the time was new to them and it was something that I was trying to pave the way for and Eventually that led to my involvement with Rocky and eventual You know being hired by CIQ to work on Rocky full-time and so that's the kind of journey I've taken in the the open source world and it's been you know more of a dream more or less to be able to do this in a full-time capacity to enable the community and also With myself be able to contribute back to the communities that I've benefited from for so long Hi, I'm Brian Exelbeard thinking about open source I first encountered open source in a role that I had as a developer and The idea that I could get access to everything in that operating system and extend it was was new to me I wound up writing some drivers for Pam that's what it was Pam. We were Long story short. I extended Pam. Y'all don't want to know the sword at the time my management was Opposed to us releasing this code because they thought that somehow this would mystically cause all of the Competition to be better, which was not true because this was a terrible idea But that being said after that I wondered for a while in the desert of academia and wound up at Red Hat and While at Red Hat, I got to work on documentation in the Fedora project I got to work in contributions around calendaring and some other Stuff that Red Hat was doing in the Centos project and then became the f-cake as I mentioned yesterday And after that wound up in the the rail business unit, which is why I'm here on behalf of rel And I'm like Neil. I'm grateful that you proposed this I'm actually really excited by this and even though it's a little quirky. I I hope this sets the basis for something We can do more regularly. I've been excited about the co-location of Centos connect here, and I think this is pretty awesome Hi, I'm David a cabalca. I started using Linux in like 98 or something I I think my first like significant for an open source was I was I started using it and contributing it and eventually Helping maintain a small embedded Linux distribution for media center systems like back then where you'd like have a like a six megabyte I saw you burn alongside your movie to watch movies a cult Geeks boss. That doesn't really exist anymore And then I was fortunate enough I kind of was able to spend most of my career working on open source and around the open source base So I I used to do small business consulting back when I lived in Italy and like setting unveil servers Those kind of things and then these days I work in meta on a little sister space team where one of the things I get to do is Engage with upstream projects and upstream communities to try and like take the work we do internally and met and bring it Alongside the world and there And that's also what eventually brought me to working closer with Fedora was sent us with all these communities Hey, my name is Jonathan, right? I got into Linux Early 2000s my dad had a box set of red hat 9 and I believe it was Sousa 7 and I wanted to host websites and team speak servers for some video games I played so that's how I got my start in it and Then you know from there it just continued on I got into CentOS probably 2005 2006 ish I've been in web hosting for about 15 years now and Being in web hosting It made it a pretty easy A pretty natural fit to get involved with Alma Linux as it started up because you know web hosting is very heavily Or has been traditionally very heavily reliant on CentOS So I got involved with Alma Linux and that was my first opportunity to kind of contribute back to open source From there I met Carl George at open source summit a couple years ago and he encouraged me to become a packager and later sponsored me So I got into that working on Apple and then naturally ended up on the Fedora side and Yeah Cool. Yeah, so now let's do the what hat are you wearing here today thing a little bit So what yeah, talk about your role in your project and how you're representing the project here today Just very briefly. I'm not wearing a hat. No hats I will be representing Rocky Linux today. I'm the infrastructure team lead. I head up all of our Operations basically for building and running and releasing Rocky on wherever it is I'm representing well today I just didn't get the memo about shirts and I only packed one red hat shirt for this trip And I wore it yesterday, and it's not clean. So I spared you all by wearing a better shirt And I am on the stage today because I am a technical business strategist in the red hat in a proselonics business unit And my area focus includes our upstream communities. I Represent the Centos project. I serve on the board of directors for Centos as of a year and change With Amy who's somewhere there and Sean who's the community architect and other folks, of course I also co-founded the Centos Hyperscale SIG We didn't send those and generally contribute to the project where I can I'm representing Alma Linux I'm like Neil the infrastructure lead. So mirrors internet presence stuff like that Pretty pretty good fit for web hosting Cool so I don't my days are it was yesterday I am backs gave a speech gave a talk. It's not a speech. I'm out of weird a talk It's what it what does red hat want which is a traditional talk We've had it flock for a while and so people who might not be familiar with fedora and flock might think oh, yeah Right had to big sponsor of course to get a sponsored talk. That's actually not where this talk comes from This is something that so fedora has been sponsored by red hat since the beginning and sometimes communications between people in the community outside of red hat and red hat the company and people actually Working on fedora inside red hat and red hats like business once and whatever have been really confusing and unclear So this is actually an invited talk the fedora community Together asked red hat. Hey, could you just kind of tell us what you want instead of doing weird hints? there's a thing inside red hat where the business unit complained about how they always get pizza that they did in order and From a fedora perspective. It's kind of like so there's these weird people in suits like outside our pizza shop And they look kind of hungry and they're sniffing around and like I guess so yeah We sometimes feel we feel sorry for them and give them some pizza and then they complain about it So instead of that I thought why don't you come tell us what you want from from the community? So that's kind of the origin of that talk so Having had that though that seemed like it'd be In good spirit to ask all the other projects, you know, what does your project want? So this is very much a with a hat of your project on like what are you trying to do? What are you looking for and? Kind of it. I want to kind of maybe do two rounds because first one is kind of like a general like here So the project is all about and then I want to talk more about fedora and specific and kind of a second round of things I Think that for that it's sort of Two pieces and one of side of it is what the rocky Linux community and our users are Wanting and or expecting of us and also what we want as a project of you know The rocky enterprise software foundation which has the rocky Linux project underneath it which has a board and We ultimately are set up to act with the best interest of our community So what we've heard from our community is that they are still wanting What sent to us was and what rocky Linux and all the Linux are you know sent to us? Downstream rebuild basically of red hat that can be used for free what we want as a team a group a Board is to collaborate with all of our upstreams sent to a stream Fedora, etc. And the broader enterprise Linux community which involves more than just the the red hat derivatives But Susa and and everything else that comes in that van. I mean Troy Dawson and the the apple State of Apple yesterday I was talking about all these weird Linux distributions that end up showing up in mirror stats and such That may or may not be real things or or may or may not be real at all So I think from that perspective we very much want to collaborate and figure out What the future looks like and not try to define it by ourselves because that's not what our project is about it's founded in a way right to Not be beholden to any corporation and we're still as an organization figuring out what that means and We obviously can't do that in a bubble either So we want to collaborate for not only the good of our project But for the good of all of the projects that have been spawned in the past few years or even before that I want to also point out that Troy Dawson not only works on Apple, but also made this amazing shirt that I'm wearing here And you cannot get the Fedora logo one on Etsy, but you can get the a bunch of other ones there So it's good plug plug his store. That's great Bex you want to do a abbreviated version or yeah We want to double pepperoni pizza and we want you to remember we haven't worn a suit in basically eight years No, I won't repeat my whole talk from yesterday Well the way I would summarize it is our ultimate goal is vibrant communities that are advancing open source that are a place where we can meet Everyone and contribute and collaborate together Our upstream first philosophy is one where everybody benefits if we all go as far upstream as we can with these Collaborations and and I think that you know this stage represents an opportunity for us to continue that collaboration I think for centos the main thing that We want that we think would be important to develop is a community where people can feel comfortable Contributing and advancing the state of the project and the ecosystem as they see fit Within within the boundaries that are available. I think for center specifically There are various entry points that one can use to that end like their centers trying proper But there's also the six and I think the six are a great example of a space where if people have a specific niche That they would like to focus on their specific thing that isn't currently well-adressed by the project by the ecosystem where they can work on develop that and then use that as kind of a launching pad to see if their idea is viable see how that will can work out the develop it deployed Get see if there's interest and see their customers customers in the broader sense not necessarily paying customers But people that have any interest and want to contribute But not just be users but also be contributors and be able to be able to work on it together I think that by far that's that's the main thing we would like we would like to see in this environment So the the mission of Alma Linux is the same now as it was when we originally started that The users that came to Alma Linux want a downstream rebuild of red hat. They want Rel like features, but what's been changing over the past month is how is the value to the entire ecosystem defined? And I'm sure we'll get into it more later in the talk But we're we're shifting a little bit with the community as as we announced a few weeks ago and I look forward to you know at first it's easy to get hung up in Negativity and only looking at the downsides of things But as we've had time to think about it more We're very excited for the future of how we can collaborate and contribute upstream In different ways that add diversified value to the whole ecosystem Cool, thank you everyone Yeah, so part of the fedora mission, which I cannot say word-for-word offhand, which is terrible but is To make a platform that others can build on to do cool things for their own users so We want to make nice things within the fedora project solutions for our own users and for ourselves things we care about We also want to make something that you know can be built on that's one of the things with the asahi linux Announcement yesterday. We want to be a great place where people can come and do really interesting projects like that and Downstreams both rel and everybody else here like this is part of what fedora. We're here for that really so I guess this is kind of a two-part question of you know What can fedora do for you and you know conversely what can you do for fedora in addition to your generous donations to this conference? Thank you So for what fedora can do for us You've already done a lot of it we've built rocky and used a lot of the open source code and infrastructure as code and Standard operating procedures and a lot of the really great stuff from fedora. There's much great stuff in fedora So we've used a lot of that and taken it and modified it slightly for our purposes, but not in a way that I don't want to say requires but Facilitates upstream collaboration for that But we want to continue building off of that with the tooling and everything that we build upon because there is such a great history and Tight integration with all of the fedora tooling and Even more than that a community of developers that already know all of the fedora tooling and specifically for packaging and such but we also as A organization for our special interest groups where we are trying to add our own diversify Whatever on top of rocky we always encourage and have from the beginning collaboration with upstream Special interest groups and parties are our wiki has said and I mean I think on our main page there for how you can get started with Rocky It's it's pretty much from Writing that page. We're like if you want to collaborate with the overall enterprise Linux ecosystem You can also just go and collaborate with the open the enterprise Linux ecosystem in CentOS stream and Apple and in the existing places there so For as for what we can do for fedora and what we plan to and are doing for store is you know I'm personally have been involved with Apple and fedora for the past few months now similar kind of story from Jonathan getting some mentorship from people like Carl and and some some other folks and I'm aiming and working to Bring more of the rocky Linux community into that ecosystem and help collaborate and build those relationships with the packages and all The different things that we're trying to do I don't mean to repeat you Neil, but it's great But yeah fedora is actually doing a lot of what we need you you have Sad at that intersection as I was talking about yesterday between integration and innovation and I am grateful for the way that you push Things forward in that space Candidly I this is partly me But I really like it when fedora pushes back on red hat a bit I love the fact that butterfs is in parts of the fedora editions. This is good We want to see that kind of stuff proven out We want to see that demand shown to us and sometimes we just literally need to see it in front of our faces And I want to continue to encourage that that's where system D came from Yeah, everybody is like red hats forcing system D on us conspiracy theory. It was fedora forced it on red hat Which is great like I that is that's how this is supposed to work And you've been a great home for ELN where we do the next major release of rel's development And you know, I'd love to see more like that kind of collaboration Obviously we provide a lot of sponsorship to the project Lots of this event candidly and and other things and I don't see any of that changing and going away in a direct sense We were certainly going to shift around how we do it at times based on what's going on in the universe But yeah, you're like you're doing it keep on doing amazing things and and maybe one last echo point continue to fill that white space Like maybe that's that the place that I should mention this. I had the privilege of sitting in on the fedora server Conversation with Peter boy earlier and he mentioned the server groups desire to work on single-board arm nas Devices that's not a red hat objective, but that's really cool, and I want to see that come to fruition I'm also happy that butterfaces in Fedora But kidding aside the Fedora is the ultimate downstream for everybody on the stage and the thing that I think is important to To stress is that when people are looking at where to contribute it can be difficult sometime to figure out what at what level do you want to contribute an able stage and what you're interested in and Contributing at the level of Fedora versus at the level of center stream versus at the level Of well contributed to rail meaning like filing box to rail unless you're a customer or contribute to rockier Alma They're all different layers of kind of the same cake here and like That's something that I have personally been struggling with like communicating to people and making sure people understand where where they want to sit here because And that is something where I think we could all do probably a better job in making it clear how this works because generally speaking if you if What you are really interested in shaping the future of the ecosystem and distribution? I would say the work you want to do is in Fedora Fedora is where the leading edge is is where this work happens Is where all the new technologies get integrated first that is by far where you want to be If what you're interested is in working on things that you want to see landing the next minor release of rail are in Stream you probably want to work in stream if what you want to see is Working at the level of the rebits are that all our projects. That's probably where you want to work And I think figuring out Where sit there is something that is important But yeah Fedora has been absolutely fantastic And I think when you look at things things like a pill provide tremendous value for the entire ecosystem like in You're trying to say something this panel is great. I would like to have another round of people saying nice things about Fedora after this one That's that's what I mean I'm serious like is Personally think generally speaking where you're speaking we're setting up a system with with any of our distributions on the stage There are very few instances where it makes sense to use it without a pill enabled And that is something that provides tremendous value both both in the immediate and in the potential in that it makes it possible To get any package that is in Fedora now Potentially available for the wider enterprise ecosystem if they need arises So that's a great example an ELN that you mentioned is another great example of Something that in the past used to be nebulos and invisible which was how does the new rail major release? appear from the ether Then now now is a thing where you can actually sit on a meeting on IRC every Friday and discuss how this is working and look at it and Get your packages in a workload so you can get notified when they break and actually fix them ahead of time Like all of this is fantastic I Think you took all my talking points No, I was I Was gonna lead with Apple. I mean, it's Especially over the years as Red Hat has gotten more behind it. Officially. It's a huge resource to anybody running anything in the EL ecosystem, and I mean that's largely in part. Thanks to Fedora contributors who otherwise Don't have a direct hand in the development of EL and prior to CentOS stream you know changing and becoming a little bit more open to Contributions getting into the EL product sooner. Apple was the best way to for the community to contribute and in turn one of I feel like the most valuable ways that Rebuilds can contribute back is to contribute to Apple. I So full disclosure Mike McGrath is my boss's boss so but he's also a longtime Fedora contributor and actually is The primary person or at least one of the main people who started the Apple project back in a long time ago So we have I know Mike spent the villain of the open source Internet for a little while So let's let's let's give him some credit as well for like really starting that project And actually this was actually another thing that Red Hat was like, okay, I don't I don't think you should do that And Fedora did it anyways and look how it's been a lot of benefit to everybody here obviously for people who don't know Rel and the downstream distributions are generally much smaller than the package set in Fedora Linux Which is in the tens of thousands of some amount But it turns out that so you know when you want to commercially support a bunch of software That amount of that's it's pretty untenable to do a really good job across all of that So it's a more restricted set, but all of that software is actually useful That's why someone put it into Fedora in the first place So Apple is rebuilds of that Fedora software against Enterprise Linux base so it can be used in Much wider audience in fact if you some of my previous charts and graphs talks I haven't done it this time, but the number of systems running Apple is Order of magnitude higher than those running Fedora Linux But you know it isn't all isn't all a numbers game, but it's also one of the things where People working on things in Fedora have a really big impact beyond just the things they care about in Fedora Linux itself Which is sorry, I'm speechifying a little bit, but I think it's And it fits into all this and since everybody mentioned it seems fair So those are all the questions that I had might I guess do people in the audience here have questions And is somebody else a mic runner or am I the mic runner here? awesome There's one back there actually cool Yeah, that's fair. Let's even have questions specifically for Jonathan Was there a question No questions at all everything is settled mic drop They don't have to just be for Jonathan Hi, I'm Shaza. I'm an intern at red the hut and I work in the stormy project I'm new to the open source contribution and projects and all of this So I just have a quick question about if I would like to contribute to any of these projects after my internship As a student, I'm a computer science student by the way Would there be any level of difficulty in between these I'd say four projects or five projects Or you know all the projects that we listen to throughout these two days in your opinion So like you know more like I'd say beginner Stage that I can start from is there any of these project that is you know easier than the other or are they all in the same level? I'm gonna let someone else answer that and hope they all save the door I was gonna say for Dora Docs, so I Think I'll go first I guess but All the projects have varying degrees of Where you can enter into them based on your commitment level your experience level and I think The most powerful thing about all of the community is being you know facilitated or part of or Adjacent to them watching them go on like they're all Very very inclusive and welcoming to to new people Whatever that level is and none of them push you away or anything like that. So I would say something like low There are parts of the projects that don't get a lot of attention like documentation That can be a tremendous leave valuable to Participate and and there's there's tons of other ones besides the documentation. I just can't think of them right now. I Was just gonna very front say I think your best bet is to consider starting in either the fedora project or the centos project primarily because rel is developed in centos stream and then major releases in fedora and directly contributing code to the rel product is Basically impossible without the internship that you already have right now But on the other hand these projects are the entry points for that and and I like the way that you expanded the envelope of Contribution there like contribution is a lot of things and so I think it it really comes back to what are you looking to contribute to? Is as a computer science student I could see you wanting to take a specific subsystem apart because it has some area of interest that you have and that may actually be better in centos stream because it's a More slowly moving code base where you could look at very specific kinds of tweaks and changes and then get advice from The existing contributors and engineers in that project of where upstream that really needs to be socialized because it may not be directly Appropriate, but it's actually a great entry point for direction on the other hand You may also be interested in some new language stack that's being used and and bringing that into the fedora project is going to Also bring it into the Apple project, which is going to get it wide range of of impact and visibility And of course like to give you to give you a small assist there There's also like art and and other design and and I will tell you right now I think all of the projects would really love some help with promotion and those kinds of things But those may or may not be your interest and you shouldn't feel pushed to them Yeah, thank you so much I was gonna add to that just a little bit From a technical standpoint if you want to get involved the I mean you got to think fedora has been doing this with community involvement for What over 20 years now? the documentation is You know almost unmatched so to get in from a packaging standpoint for example Fedora is absolutely the place to start Recently I sent some of my first merge request into Senua stream and while the documentation there is lacking a bit I was able to do that with a little bit of outside help from Some friends, but it the process is so similar to fedora because that's where it all starts So if you want to contribute packages as a you know be a packager or something like that Absolutely start in fedora because everything is really structured around how fedora has been doing it for so long anyway My personal recommendation is to focus on something you find personally interesting that you that you would like to see to see in the distribution And then yeah, I think I agree that Fedora probably has the widest breadth of well-developed opportunities for newcomers Fedora also has things like the joint SIG that is explicitly designed to help newcomers get started on the project find I Believe you still have a thing that I find get there with a mentor or like something like that That that's definitely helpful for people new to the project new to the space new to the environment a lot of these a Lot of distributions like that from distributions here But distributions in general in addition to the code itself There's a lot of process around things that there's a lot of ways that people do things within the space Where people have strong opinions on the way to do things and I find I think it's always fantastic when there's new cameras that point out No, this is stupid. There are much better ways to do this.  Is it? You know Satisfying I guess David Okay, so that's a great way to start with I Want to I want to accept Fedora and rel from this. I'm familiar with those products. I Have a personal server that used to run CentOS. I Like to run an EL distribution on it, but I don't want to deal with rel on this personal server because it doesn't matter Why would I choose Alma CentOS stream or Rocky or? How do you differ from each other and which one would make the best choice for that? You're welcome. There's there's the fighting. Let's go Well CentOS streams always broke It depends I Hate it, but that's it's the answer in everything. It's when I was doing network engineering. It's the answer to there It's the answer in computer science. It's ultimately, you know at this point CentOS stream is Just as fine as anything else to deploy it it's It really ends up just being a matter of preference I think right and if you if you exclude rel like let's say rel for some reason somehow didn't exist and Source RPM and it's just a period of the ether I Think it's really just a toss-up of like what name you like or what community you like and I think the The silver lining of this entire situation that's going over the past month or so is that The enterprise Linux community as a whole has been brought together like forcibly smushed maybe but it's a silver lining that I am personally really grateful for because it's enabled us to have conversations between projects like Rocky and Alma and Sousa and CentOS stream and and all of these different projects that are part of the enterprise Linux space the the EL community IRC channel has grown massively and and there's Conversations good and bad that happened there, but ultimately I think it's a you know Net benefit for the overall community and that's why we're all sitting on the stage right now I would say from the point of view of stream so food disclosure I ran straight met home on the router in my home, which is just a Linux box and it's fine I would say running stream is roughly comparable to if you're used to running CentOS Linux is running CentOS Linux with the proposed updates or candidate updates repo enabled with the difference that on stream all the all the updates They go out to go through the the gating and the testing they go through so assuming the gating at the testing on the right side is set Appropriately there. They should be higher quality when they go out I Would say stream gives you slightly faster updates because you don't have to wait For things to go to point releases and it means you don't have to deal with point releases Which is something I personally like a lot because I don't care about point releases on the other end if you were running software that is specifically tested against Well 9.1 or whatever and you want to be sure you're running Well, if you're running software that needs to be certified you should probably be running rail But if you're running software that for whatever reason you don't care about running rail And you still want to be pinned to a specific point release then I would recommend not running stream But running one of the rebuilds or running rail The other thing I would say is with stream You probably have a slightly faster Cycle if you want to get changes that you eventually want to get into rail as well Because if you contribute to stream directly that's that's where the development for a lot happens So that's where the changes will eventually go into for as well and again assuming the process works the way supposed to It is reasonably reasonably quick like the single stream is that every package has different maintainers like in federal So that the response you would get depends on what the maintainer does what the priorities are and all of that So whenever I do this quite a lot because for my day job I I end up doing quite a bit of like by reposting contributions to stream. So you'll have You'll have cases where you point out Hey, this package should really be your based and it gets re-based Within a week and you have cases where you need to have a conversation and a bit more a bit more of justification Why you care about that? Just a little bit further. You said you want to run an enterprise distribution Enterprise Linux distribution my question back to you would be how do you define what enterprise Linux is? Yeah, I realized I was thinking about that while you were talking so to me for a personal server I want to run an EL distribution because I I want the slow-moving Pace of the system. I don't want it to change out from under me. I want it to run the web server Or whatever I'm running on it. I don't want to have to change it at the rate. We change things in fedora So basically I want to avoid home IT day like twice a month Seriously, and and that that's my definition of it for a personal server Not for my laptop I Want to sneak in another possibility, which is you can run for our coro s on that and Not worry about it and have your workloads in a container running one of these running or running UBI Which is the rel based door magically turns into rel if you buy a license. I think that's the way it works I don't know. Yeah, no, I know that's an option. I'm but I'm trying to pick between these three You have four choices sorry so far we've had rocky Linux recommends into a stream and we've had CentOS stream recommends into a stream So what is all my record? Oh? Okay You haven't said anything that rules out anybody up here Okay, so the things that start looking at then is going to be support lifespan. Do you need?  I'm on the supply side of bugs. So, you know, which community like the best which community do you like the best? David said he is on the supply side of bugs. I just wanted to yes Pick a community get involved go with it. Okay. Thank you It is also fairly trivial to build your own Coro s like spin with whatever distribution you want or mix them all together Yeah, and if you package for Apple by chance You can use any of the distributions to to build your your Apple packages against using the Fed package utility and They should all work. I will say to add on to David's point there is movement in CentOS stream and Stuff happens like there is breakages that occur They don't happen all the time But it's also a very different situation than it was three years ago when if something was broken when it came out in Well, you couldn't do anything about it except open a bug now if there's something broken there's recourse and there's gating and there's policy so that you as a consumer of that package can also go in and Contribute directly to help make those tests better in some way to prevent that from happening in the future Which I know was a frustration of me as a consumer of CentOS in the past just because of inheriting bugs downstream, right? and the ability to Look into that and kind of help contribute is New and fascinating Yeah, I would say depending on what your level of The kind of SLA you expect to have for your for your home server I would probably not put a cron job that runs DNF update every six hours On any of these systems, but on streaming particular I probably wouldn't do that just because sometimes updates would go out Not necessarily in exactly the right order so you might notice some breakage if you run it at exactly the wrong time that that said So the way I mitigate this at work for what is worse is that we just take snapshots of the repos every Every week or every so often and then we're all out this snapshot of the repo as a unit So that's one way to mitigate that I don't think this is a concern for a home deployment to be honest And I've I don't think I've ever hit this at home and at home I just run the NF update at random whenever I remember it was a station to the machine So it's definitely not an ideal well-managed scenario. I Definitely agree. You need to be running DNF a lot on a lot of different systems to be able to see the signal of Possible breakages that occur because that they don't happen that often you see them in CI more than you see them anywhere else I think or maybe in your deployment of systems. You have enough to see who if things break Yeah, the other thing is stream doesn't have body So it's not like in Fedora where you can look at you can look at body And you can a group updates in bodies It's a it's designed in a very different way from that point of view and it has benefited in a Starbucks in that regard So if your expectation is something like Fedora, it definitely works a bit differently there Yet something I was only gonna pitch Fedora IoT at you because I use it personally And then you took it off the table and then I was gonna admit that I lied a little yesterday because it turns out I run another OS called has OS because I run a home assistant server and I was gonna tell you that you really need to think about your use case because Like while I love all these folks up here. These may not be the OS as you need And then I was reminded of the fact that you're on the supply side of bugs and like David You don't write you don't call you won't run well yet. You work for us. Where do these bugs come from, sir? There's another thing that I want to bring up because I think it's not obvious But it's it's a defining difference in that if you if you have Any of these systems generally speaking updates between major releases can be tricky or at least aren't necessarily Officially well supported That doesn't mean they don't work and you can generally make it work in a home case This may not be a problem On the other end if you use Fedora generally speaking if you use grants like Fedora server You can do system upgrade from release to another easily the downside a lot of the flip side Shall we say is that Fedora releases a lot more often? You may not necessarily like forklift upgrade your whole system every every time Fedora releases Also in the in the shorter window Fedora Releases way more often seems like there's kernel updates a lot more often You may not want to reboot your server to get a kernel update whenever there's a kernel update there So that's another consideration to keep in mind One more thing I think is a little bit unique to Alma up here is we a couple weeks ago We've changed we haven't changed directions, but we've changed our contribution path To where sometimes we can do builds of our own do bug fixes of our own and release those that aren't necessarily a direct clone of what rel is so with rel you're getting rel with Rocking I mean correct me if I'm wrong no with with Rocky you're getting a one-to-one Sorry, if that's the wrong terminology you're getting a clone of rel and with Suno a stream you're getting what's coming up next I'm really excited to see with the changes that we are making and Alma where how we might can differentiate in the future what extra we might could bring to the table and You know that might be a value to you you know depending on on the direction that basically our community takes it and Where people choose to contribute and where that goes And just quick. Yeah, we've got a queue of questions here, too Yeah, so I'm a bit of an enterprise Linux noob, so apologies for any ignorance in this question But and it's a two-part question. So the first part is for everyone up on stage You know, what do you would you say is your major differentiating factor that you're providing with with with your distribution? my second question is You know, we have many sort of very similar distributions up on stage Do we ever feel like we're kind of over differentiating from each other by creating these separate distributions? I'm curious about your thoughts in a Kind and respectful way. Thank you Ah shucks So I think that as Jonathan was saying my our rocky is differentiator right now is that We are Continuing to do what we promise to do for our community in terms of rebuilding one-to-one with red hat I will add on that we recently proposed a fast track SIG kind of a callback to the the Cento S fast track SIG We're we're looking to be able to Bring in more contributors and also collaborate more with the enterprise Linux community like with all the Linux and the patches that they're Planning on adding to be able to bring those as well as other bug fixes and and packages That our community finds helpful into the operating system as an optional thing to bring on but at its core We'll always stay that kind of one-to-one For for the promises that we've made to our community in terms of the the over diversification, I guess Yes, and I think that's why we're sitting at this panel right now to Begin, you know figuring out what that all means for the future With rel we have built very carefully an ecosystem of vendors and partners Where we try to provide an OS platform for them to help their our shared customers Execute workloads in a safe and reliable way with certifications and all of the things that those kinds of rel spaced holes exist to fill And so that's like that's a significant differentiator for us from say for Dora Linux or Centos stream I mean, you know Alma is going with a Mixed approach as I understand it and and our friends at Rocky are going to attempt to copy us And that's that's fair. I think that's that's a reasonable statement. It is not menace a slight The thing that I think is is interesting in your over differentiation question is this and I think that everyone in this room needs to acknowledge it at its core all of our operating systems including folks who aren't on stage our friends at canonical our friends at Oracle our friends at Sousa They're all the same thing. They're all made from the same upstream components You can sit down and do basically all of the same stuff on all of them. Sure. Some of the commands are different DNF versus apt I know which one I like to type But you know sure whatever some of the files are in different locations But they are at the core that and I really appreciate you bringing out this differentiation point Because it also calls back to David's question around that of you have a specific need and one of us needs to fill that and So like I said yesterday, I'm really excited about the white space in enterprise Linux being filled by other projects and other people Because not every problem is a well-shaped problem. I would say on the on the center side There's a few There's a few size to these on one end is what I what I mentioned earlier that because training is continuously continuously deliver distribution You effectively only have a continuous stream of updates You don't have to pick minor releases or think about that at all and that that has its benefit and has it all back So it's something to to consider The other thing is the sentence isn't just rain, but it is the ecosystem of the six So if there is something that you want to do that fits into what one of the six is trying to do That that can be very that can be very useful that can be very beneficial for what you're trying to do And conversely, there is something you would like to do in the project that isn't there yet Starting to say and running support around it could be a valuable way to go ahead On the differentiation point, I would say I don't think differentiations per se is a problem I think where it can become a problem is if we end up with silos that don't communicate to each other And I think the fact that we're all sitting here is a good sign that that isn't happening right now But what I would personally like to see is a way for all of us here to contribute Back to the same part, which ultimately is Fedora at the end of the day But in a way that we can all benefit and that if there are specific issues that One of our projects is solving and addressing that isn't well addressed by the others We can figure out what is the root cause there together and get it addressed where it makes sense and where it makes sense Might be in Fedora. It might be in Santos. It might be a process around How these distributions are composed together. It might be something that has to be rethought on the right side But I think that is something where the most value can come out of the differentiation Around the players on the stage and outside of the stage. I wouldn't say that What was the term you what was the term you use for you know, all of us? Yeah, I wouldn't say that over differentiation Is bad as long as everybody at the table is bringing their own value That's kind of the beauty of open source when you have projects that don't agree on every tiny little thing you end up with two projects And going back to what David said those different projects meet different needs So it brings more to the table overall because in the end that all goes back upstream and if somebody You know wants a combination of both of those they can go take that and you know run with it as well So it's it adds more more building blocks for everybody to build with Great, so I just want to let you know people have been raising their hands. So I've got Justin here I've got the gentleman beside David there, and I've got you next. All right Maybe we could skip this because I feel like it was kind of covered and it came I was came up when you're talking about the contributor pathway with Alma So this might just be for Jonathan But I was just curious what you think about not having to be one-to-one bug for bug compatible with rail anymore I guess you did kind of just answer that but I don't think else you want to add to that I was just curious like what that looks like for Alma and There if there's anything else you wanted to add to what you yeah, yeah, I'm be it was that a online question Or is that from you? Okay? I'm beyond excited because it Allows us to do things that we previously couldn't even entertain You know things of everything from butter FS support in a kernel to you know Putting raid card modules back in the kernel and everything in between are things that have been mentioned and prior to now it was things that we would simply have to dismiss and say well, you know rel's not doing that and We couldn't you know that that was what we were doing We were following rel now that's things that we can entertain and talk to the community and say hey You know is this are these things that you want? Do you want to help contribute them and kind of see where it goes from there? And and going back to earlier some of the the value that fedora provides to us You know this is all new this this whole path has happened within the past What six eight weeks so one of the things that we're strongly looking towards is how fedora handles? you know making decisions and changes within the operating system and The way that fedora has it all set up is is wonderful So we're able to look at fedora and take take a lot of the ideas and and you know turn that into something positive You know as a differentiation for Alma That that can meet different needs So my question is kind of in the same vein Because if I want to contribute to center stream I contribute to center stream If I want to contribute to change something in row I contribute to center stream But what happens if I want to change something in rocky or in Alma? Where do I go? I guess I'll go first if you want to I'll let Neil cover rocky. I don't want to speak for him If you want to change something in Alma it could go either way We're still using Senua stream as our primary upstream So anything that does get in stream you will see an Alma Linux, but we can do things in addition to that So it could be something you know say you contribute it to stream or talk to the maintainer of a package in stream or want to add another package and You know there might not be a pathway to do that in stream and subsequently rail That's something that we can still look at doing And that that's kind of the difference that we can take with the rail compatibility, but not real clone model Basically same thing for rocky Outside of having the core what you get when you install rocky and update your system every time being what you get from rel we're adding Improving and facilitating collaboration in our SIGs with the upstreams as well as just internally to help folks that are using rocky to add To change what they want to and and add the value to rocky in that way without having to necessarily Go through the process of contributing in different upstreams It's I can speak for myself that getting involved in the fedora and sento a stream communities and Collaborating in those personally from my background and coming from the rocky side wasn't a super Anx-free experience for me And I know that that's also true for other contributors from rocky and from Alma and other distributions who may feel disenfranchised in some way and I think that's something that rocky and Alma and sento a stream and everything else can help to Build back in and bring those people back into the fold under the fold into the ecosystem I would I would disagree with your comment about feeling disenfranchised. I feel like I was When I wanted to get involved with the door I was I was welcomed with open arms Yeah, no, I let me rephrase I I was definitely welcomed into both communities with open arms I just felt personally, you know from where I was coming from that there was Resentment or something coming from that side which may or may not have been there and probably wasn't right But I know that that's not an uncommon theme for folks that are coming from that background coming from the maybe More emotional side right and I think that as humans we are all very emotional It can be hard for them to feel accepted into those communities even when those communities are literally saying we're welcoming you Okay, I see The the thing I would I would start again on the on the stream size specifically is Because trainees was used to effectively develop rail There's gonna be a set of changes that aren't going to be Acceptable for stream, but that doesn't mean there is no space for those changes in the project So the example is for example the one of the things we do in the center cyber skill seek is maintain the latest version of system D As something that can be used on center stream and that's something that obviously wouldn't be acceptable for string proper or for Well, because they're not necessarily gonna re-based system D every time there's a release of system Although they have re-based system D a few times now in in the in the nine cycle, which I was personally very pleasantly surprised So that's an example of something that can be developed within within the ecosystem It's also something that then is available to other projects in the area that want to leverage it if they so desire Thank you. I saw my question mainly for for red hat and sensor stream this point Regarding the contribution model between red hat and sensor stream For example, if red hat now finds a bug in a code that they are pushing upstream What will happen if the developer upstream didn't want to accept that code? Would they still be available in rail or not and what will happen in a few months time? When sent us a stream goes end of life and red hat still continue with rail had it There is no way to push upstream unless you will backport the patches from rail 8 to send us a stream 9 as far as I understand So if somebody can shed some light on this, sorry if I can ask a clarifying question Because you you set upstream multiple times and it's a loaded word Do you mean upstream as center stream or upstream as the upstream project? If I understood the question correctly, and please correct me here if I wander off course Now I'm a little worried with this clarification But let me try let me let me give it a college. I can split it like two parts if it yeah split it into two parts Okay, so at the moment Howard hat is contributing city sent us a stream our bugs fix it in sent us a stream first and then merge it back to rail or Well fixes the bug and then submit it to and release it to their customer and subscription and developers And then push the patch to census stream. This is part one So if you look around the room carefully while I'm answering this you will see the people that you want to talk On the hallway because they're all about to blanche But as someone who does not regularly push mrs through either process I'm gonna give this the college track the general process for almost everything that red hat does in rel Except for rel 7 because there is no sent all stream 7 is to do that work in sent all string That work goes through an mr. Process. It is discussed and it is merged Period there are some exceptions and the primary case for those exceptions is like an embargoed CVE where that work cannot be done publicly and In that case we must do it to the side We then ship it to our customers in rel and then we put it into sent all stream there is no artificial delay in this process and My understanding is that depending on the engineering team involved. They even have the the m are ready They're just literally waiting for everything to come out of the embargo the ship to go and then they're pushing it in stream Like it's not even a now go start over problem They've been keeping it up because if you think about doing that kind of work like you're already in there with a needle Picking up drop stitches to begin with you're not gonna want to set this up to be something you do twice This actually also happens with fedora packages with red at maintainers where there is Embargo to issue that red hat is aware of that Fedora me the community might not be is often the case that the maintainers you build it internally and have That ready to go when they can but it asked to wait for the embargo to be done Justin's got a clarification here Like I said look for the people who are blanching right now that's that's the person you really want to talk Yeah, no to clarify that was special with embargo TVs build it internally Yes, we can build it internally. I build embargo kernel CVs on my home system all the time I test it locally as much as I can make sure it works But there is no system in fedora for me to build and stage something that would be an official build So I can't start the build Process until I can commit to disk it and then get it through Koji and that's all once the embargo is lifted That's the same in stream. So yeah, that's that's basically the cause of the delay There is not having secret places to do things and I've gotten yelled at when I proposed secret places So just so you know the community is working The second question that I believe you had was what is going to happen with Centaur stream 8 at the end of its five-year Life that the centaur's project has announced and that red had obviously supports because I didn't deny consensus We don't know yet We're in the process of figuring out what our development strategy is going to look like and then We're going to move forward with letting the world know what our answer to that is we will of course do that in consultation with the centaur's board But the project board has also embraced the idea that centaur stream from their perspective is a five-year thing And and the USS Enterprise will launch on its new mission. So I had to work that in there, right? So so I think that that's that's the perspective and I do want to leave room for David I if he wants from a board perspective or project perspective to add something Yeah, I would say from a in a general in a general standpoint if you go on good love good love calm Right I send a stream and you look at MRs on the group you can see very very clearly How the activity flows you can also see that oftentimes the people making the MRs are Still learning how to work with the process. So you you might see a variety levels of quality in the comments, shall we say? That I think is proof among other things that this is really where the development is happening And there isn't like a secret cabal on the side doing development somewhere else But it is understandable that for things like embargoed CDs and things like that there has to be a separate process That just no there's no way around it and like if you've I've been in environments where you get the email that oh Yeah, tomorrow at 4 a.m. Expect something to happen to open SSL I'm sure you might have been in environments similar to that. There's really not much you can do in those cases He the good thing though is that least in every example. I can think of what these happened As soon as the vulnerability was public the the commit was published almost immediately on get love And then the build went out within a reasonable time I think there's only a couple of example. I can think of where these took Slightly longer because people were still learning the process effectively And I apologize. I don't like chaining, but I want your question reminded me of something And I want to publicly acknowledge it when Centaur stream was first announced it flowed backwards. Oh Yes, we fixed that we fixed that a long time ago and Non-red hat employees were not the only people upset about everybody trying to swim in the wrong direction So we did at the very beginning of time have this weird system where things went around the curve And then kind of pretended they flowed down that has long been gone And I really encourage people to do as Davada has suggested and go take a look at get lab That is your proof like you don't need to believe me If you if you find it useful I brought Like a short block post for block the census the dog a year or maybe more I don't know it's weird we covered but like some time ago I wrote a blog post that kind of tried to explain how this process was because it was something that I wanted to understand I found that fighting it was a lot easier and that people at work needed to understand So maybe that helps is that from Alexandra? No, no, that was something I wrote Alexandra also gives a talk and I think had also right up that was very helpful We should probably write up part two of these that was the two together because I think that would be valuable She couldn't make it because of visa things, but would be in the audience correcting us on everything we say here Correctly to So just wondering what the collaboration workflow processes for in Bargaret CBE's which regard to rel sent us stream Alma and Rocky Because you know, I imagine that if we get another specter meltdown type situation It kind of behooves us in the sense of partner and openness to Include the distros as early as possible And of course as early as possible is when they get read in and when is that but I'd like to know What is that process today or does it need to be hammered out? I will speak at least from my perspective and from what I know and obviously I can't speak to what happens internally at Red Hat But I do know that a lot of the CBEs are circulated on a private Openwall.org mailing list pre-release in the embargo period where those patches are discussed and Red Hat canonical a number of other organizations. I think meta might be one of them I don't remember. I don't know if I can talk about this. Okay. Well. Anyways, there's a list. It's public but That's kind of where that process happens and there are Requirements to be part of that group and so I would personally love for more collaborate for us Distributions like Alma and Rocky to be able to participate that And I think that these sorts of changes that are being made specifically with Alma being able to vary and and build off of rel in a diversified way that there's definitely Reason for more organizations. I think to be part of that and to collaborate I am not an expert in this space And so I am only going to say that Red Hat fully cooperates within this space where it where it exists And and I honestly don't know the status of Alma Lennox and Rocky Lennox with regards to participation in this process I Encourage everybody who is building code to pay attention to where that code is coming from and to be able to have the Enduring wherewithal to manage and control all of the pieces of code that matter to them Beyond that my understanding is that we do all of the CVE work on behalf of Centos Project and on behalf of Fedora project my suspicion is with a focus on Fedora Lennox and a focus on Centos stream However within the Fedora project my understanding is that it is still true that everything that Fedora produces is derived from Fedora Lennox and That everything that is currently being built by a SIG in the Centos project is derived from Centos stream So indirectly all of those other pieces will benefit from that work. Yeah, I think the only caveat here is There is no formal CV process for content coming from Centos SIGs So it's up to the need to a SIGs how to handle that. I would say most of the SIGs end up building Content as derived as you mentioned from either Fedora or Centos stream So it's pretty immediate to do that But if you're looking for a process that involves certified metadata and things like that you are probably not gonna get that there Maybe you can start a SIG to look at adding that Mirroring everybody else up here. I'm not the best one to talk about that But internally some of the questions we have at Alma right now like when we created our Arata for example That was done in a way to mirror rel and recently when we were able to push a CVE fix Before the fixes made it into stream. It basically calls us to ask ourselves a question of you know We've got to rethink how we do Arata now Because we pushed that first and and at the time we had no idea if that was gonna make it into to stream And rel or not it turns out it did so you know now we'll pull that same Arata But we've got we've still got some rethinking to do and you know It's worth saying that none of this is a hundred percent figured out. You know, it's our plan we're figuring out the exact structure and what it looks like as we go and Trying to get involved in the development more and contributing to stream is helping to force our hand on figuring that out It's forcing us to stop and ask ourselves these questions I think we're running out of what we're way over time way over time right so I guess If there's more questions, well, this will be a continuing conversation.  So it's good to I think everybody who wanted drama should have come to my talk Where we talked about discourse and the mailing list there you could have had it I think we did a good job of disappointing everybody who was looking for it here. So thank you everybody and Think we're gonna go on a scavenger hunt and dinner. So Justin's got some stuff to talk about so first Thank you. Have a pause for our panelists and our moderator so Quick housekeeping for tonight. We are going to go to a community dinner. Everyone is invited tonight We will have shuttles leaving at 5 30. So I would suggest being in the lobby at 5 15 So take some time to refresh or we also have three workshops that I have another half hour. Well, we ran over a little bit So they're probably gonna 20 minutes But meet us in the lobby at 5 15 We're gonna go to dinner and we're going to do the scavenger hunt through Cork City from the restaurant so I hope to see you all at the dinner and We do have to leave this room because there is another event in 20 they're gonna set up for the event and take everything down here now So we will have to do we are gonna have to do a quick exit here But thank you all for coming for day two of flock and hope to see you at the social tonight