Then you know if the calories are too high. Ooh, I gained muscle, but I also gained body fat. So let me drop the calories a little bit. This is a touchy process every single week because if you are building muscle and burning body fat, metabolism is changing. I mean, your diet has to change as well. So this was the rule that I came up for myself. It was I tested every week. I took pictures every week, same time, same day, Friday's first thing in the morning always. But I would not adjust anything in my programming until two weeks because I think the biggest mistake that people make when you're trying to do something in the like the Goldilocks zone is to make a decision too soon. If you're kind of stalled and you're not seeing the progress you'd like to see, what I found more often than not was trusting that process and staying right there for another two weeks the next two weeks, I made big leaves. All right, in today's episode, we're going to talk about the Goldilocks zone, the very, very difficult and challenging, but possible strategy of building muscle and burning body fat at the same time. Now, again, I want to be very clear. This is very, very challenging and hard to do, but it is possible if you do it the right way. Is the Goldilocks zone a real thing? Is that like a real thing for this? Like a term? No. Is that like a general term that you use? Yes. You know what they use it for? It's like the sweet spot. They use it for habitable planets. They use it for things like that, where it's like, you have to have all of the stars aligned perfectly in order to foster this kind of an environment. Yeah, so like Earth is in the Goldilocks zone. Yeah. Okay, so do you know the origin of it, Doug? You know the Goldilocks story? Yeah. Okay. So the three bears, right? Yeah. They had the porch too hard. Too cold and just right. The just right is the Goldilocks. Ah, yeah. Learn something new every day. There it is. You know what I'm saying? Okay, we're done. You learned something today. You're nugget. We're out. Yeah, so you know, with something like this, like, you know, most people want to build muscle, most people want to burn fat, right? But doing them at the same time, oh, and by the way, we almost never recommend that people try to do this. It's a, it's a, it's a probably a more winning strategy or consistent winning strategy to focus on one at a time. I used to actually tell people like this just isn't something you should focus on. Yeah. This just isn't, I wouldn't say it's like impossible, but it's just so difficult. You'd have to know like they're the right person to even approach this. Okay, now you guys say that, and I agree, like I, especially on this podcast, I would not give this general advice to the tons of people that are listening. But if you're, if you're advanced and you, you've been doing this for a long time, this is where you want to get. I think you want to get no matter what, right? No matter what, if your goal is at the time to build more muscle or is to lean out, like when you are, and let's say you fell off the wagon over the holidays and you're getting back, this is, this is the ideal way to start to get back in shape. Cause technically it's the fastest way. Oh yeah. I mean, you're doing both at the same time.  Your body weight stayed this, people will know this, if you saw your before and after picture, which how long ago was that? Was that like 10 years ago? Oh yeah, it's been almost that. It's been almost 10 years. Yeah, close to that.  Yeah. Same body weight on both of them. And through the whole process that, and that was the goal, like when I set out, right? I wanted to show people that you don't need to see the scale really move that much to radically change your body composition and I don't think I ever moved more than three to five pounds during that time, like give or take. Well, yeah, two, two, two, ten, two, ten. I'll look, I actually have, I know I have the picture somewhere where I think I even screenshoted the weight and everything on there. It was, I think somewhere between two, thirteen and two, eighteen. So it was under two, twenty. I was over, over two, oh five, two, ten range.  Oh God, I was at nineteen point seven. Okay. And I went all the way down to seven percent. Right. So obviously radically different. So muscle up, fat down, the body weight stays the same. Yep. And muscle obviously looks very different. But a great experiment because the average person thought I was like, you know, weight wise, radically different. Yes. I mean, if you looked at it, it'd be like, oh, he's got to be way different body weight wise, but not at all. Yeah. One of the reasons why this is so hard is because losing fat means that you are in a calorie deficit, meaning that your body is now tapping into its stored energy to make up the difference. So if you're eating, you know, 2,000 calories, but you're burning 2,500 calories, well, you got to find that extra 500 calories from somewhere. So it's coming from fat, but building muscle. Okay. Means that you have to have adequate calories to add new tissue. So on the one hand, you have to let low enough to where your body's tapping into tissue.  So it sounds almost like they're opposing and yet, and in some ways they are opposing that the idea basically is to burn fat for energy and use food for muscle. That's really what you're trying to do. Now it's going to get, it's more complex than that. We'll get into it, but I think it's important to note that this is a slow gradual process. Well, now, like from a mechanistic point, what is happening? Is it that it's not like both are happening at the same time. It's that in, let's say, a 24 or 48 hour period, there's moments where you're catabolic. There's moments when you're anabolic. Is that how you would describe what's probably really going on? Like when you are keeping it really close calorie wise of what your body needs, there's moments where you probably dip in, your body's in a deficit, and then there's moments when you dip it or you are in a slight surplus. And so in those moments, the bodies in the surplus, your body's repairing and building and adapting to muscle, the moments and times where it's not, and it's in a deficit, it's catabolic, it's burning, and it's utilizing mainly body fat. Yeah, I mean that's kind of how the body works anyway, right? It's never like this same. It's always building and losing, and if you gain weight, it means it's, you're gaining more than you're losing, and then vice versa. So it's always kind of doing that, but you know, really this is about signaling. It's okay, if I'm burning 2,500 calories, but I'm taking in 2,000 calories, and part of the burn of the 2,500 calories is that I'm utilizing, I don't know, let's say 75 calories to add new muscle. Then what I'm hoping is that my body fat is being added to the food that I'm eating to provide these nutrients. So you're getting this kind of transfer, if you will, and now you're not turning fat into muscle, so I want to be very clear the two totally separate tissues, but you want to basically fuel yourself enough, but then use extra fat also as part of that, and then simultaneously you're building muscle, which then affects your metabolism, which is why, you know, one of the steps we're going to talk about is really tracking what's going on, because if you are gaining muscle and burning body fat, that means your caloric requirements change. So muscle burns more calories, and so you can't stay the same the whole time. That's the most challenging part about this, is it's like, oh, it worked for this two weeks, it ain't going to work for the next two weeks, because now you have more muscle. Your body adapts, yeah, too. That's why this is such a gradual process, because you want to build, but you want to build too quickly, because you want to be able to distinguish between what type of tissue you're actually building, or if your, that spillover becomes storage, which becomes fat, and then now we have to kind of like account for that. And the reason why you guys would never recommend this to most people is because more than anything else, the psychological challenge is so great. Well, it's hard enough just to lose a game.  When you keep it this close, it becomes even more difficult, because you don't get that feedback like you do when you're like, if you're an aggressive bulk, you know, you get the easy feedback where I get on the scale like, all right, I'm up another pound. I'm heading the right way, right, because that's what I'm trying to do, or the opposite, right, someone who wants to lose 50 or 100 pounds and they get on the scale, they're like, all right, I'm down two more pounds, so you get this feedback of, okay, I'm doing really good, where in this case, if you know either person, right, whether you're trying to build or lose body fat, you're following the steps that we're going to talk about right now, you could get on the scale every day for a month of being perfect and not see anything move. Well, it's almost, yeah, like you can't feed off that momentum that you would get swinging hard one way or swinging hard the other way in terms of like your focus of like, what's my intent going into this? If I'm just like an aggressive bulk, like I'm smashing weights, I'm eating, you know, and it's like you're kind of fueling this momentum all in one direction instead of like really just, you know, staying in the middle and realizing we can't go too far to one to the other. Yes. What's up, everybody? Today's giveaways, the RGB bundle. Three programs, maps anabolic, mass performance, maps aesthetic. Here's how you win. Leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop this video. Subscribe to this channel. Turn on notifications. If we declare you the winner, we'll let you know in the comment section. Nowhere else, okay, we're not going to send you a snapchat or something weird.   Now everybody else, we got a sale going on this month. We've taken our workout programs, created three bundles to kind of meet everybody's needs. Every bundle gives you up to nine months of planned workouts, exercise demos, videos, what workouts to do, exercises, reps, sets, the whole deal, okay. Everything is planned out in each of these bundles and each one is up to three, it's $300 or more of a discount, so huge discounts. Again, it's January, so it's a big month for fitness. Here's what the three bundles are. We have the new-to-weight lifting bundle, the body transformation bundle, and the new-year extreme intensity bundle. So if you want to learn more or just sign up, click on the link at the top of the description below to find out. All right, here comes the show. So the first step, this is the most important step here with this goal, is to lift weights. The reason why you want to lift weights or do strength training is because that is the most effective loudest muscle building type signal that you can send your body. If you do not lift weights and you attempt to build muscle and burn body fat, it's not going to happen.  Muscle does not appear on your body without a stimulus, without a reason for it, because it is expensive tissue, meaning it costs your body nutrients to build and then maintain muscle, and without a good reason, your body will never add muscle to your body. And what I mean by a good reason is either a strong outside signal or a hormonal signal or some kind of a signal that says we want extra muscle, otherwise it ain't going to happen. So you have to, if this is your goal, if you don't lift weights, it ain't going to happen.  Absolutely has to happen. Well, and then, okay, along those lines, your second point would be the type of lifting you do I think is really important, too, because a lot of times, especially people that are wanting to reduce body fat, they get caught up in the calorie burn type of training, and we have focused more on this like circuit-based, high heart rate, constantly moving, constantly sweating, and for what we're trying to accomplish here, I would say that's some of the worst ways you could potentially train, right? Yeah, no, you got to focus on the loudest possible signal for muscle building exclusively. And there's a couple of those lifts, those compound lifts that really provide that kind of stimulus where your whole body is just geared in that direction towards muscle building. Yeah, so like, for example, a barbell squat in a set-to-set comparison to like leg extensions or leg curls or other leg exercises, it just builds more muscle. So it's a louder muscle building signal, and you want as loud of a possible, as allowed as possible muscle building signal in this process. So those exercises do that, but also there's this problem because my calories are going to be carefully, you know, tracked or I'm cutting calories. I can't waste time and energy doing stuff that's not really going to serve me really well. You got to view your workout as the signaling for muscle and the diet as this is the fat burning part of it. Don't look at your workout as the fat burning, although the workout does contribute to it. Don't view it that way because if you start to train to burn body fat, then you're going to burn too many calories or send the wrong signal, which is more of a risk actually, and then your body will actually pair muscle down. It's very common for people to go lower calorie to lose weight and simultaneously lose muscle as well as body fat. In fact, that's more common than not. Well, this is also the reason why I, during this process, I did no cardio. Yeah, and that's the most controversial part right now. It is controversial, but I mean I love that you recently brought up that study that they just did. This is an example of that.  So it's like, if I know that muscle is going to help me metabolically, I know that ultimately that's the look I also want to have. I want to have a lean, muscular look. I don't want to be all just skinny from losing lots of weight. Then it's important that I keep as much muscle as possible in this process and one of the ways of doing that is actually managing your deficit purely through your nutrition and your training and not through cardio. Cardio does not send a muscle building signal. Cardio sends a build endurance signal and it also burns a lot of calories during the time that you're spent doing it. So because it doesn't send a muscle building signal and because it burns a lot of calories, the way your body adapts to it is by making you more efficient, giving you more endurance, but also making you more efficient with calorie burn. So you end up losing muscle, you end up paring muscle down. Cardio will send a competing signal with the strength training. So could you lose more weight on the scale, total weight, by doing cardio plus weights plus a deficit in calories? Yes. Will you lose more fat? No. Will you build muscle? Definitely not. So remember the goal here is to build muscle and burn body fat at the same time. And because it's such a tricky, this is such a tricky Goldilocks zone process, you don't want to do anything that could potentially get your body to pair muscle down. You want to do everything in your power to try to get your body to build muscle while simultaneously eating in a calorie deficit to burn body fat.  Now what is it Sal about walking that doesn't seem to do this? Now you can walk a lot and do this like tons, but if you just make sure that you're active throughout the day and taking eight to 10,000, 12,000 steps a day, you're not really needing to build tons of stamina and endurance. It's really just about being active and being healthy.  Yeah, now you're looking at like or running outside or something like that. Now you're looking at oh now my body really wants to become efficient. Now you could do this with walking. It's just a lot harder. You have to walk miles and miles and miles a day to make that happen. The thing about walking versus running, jogging, all that, like it's more recovery focused. So it's good for overall digestion. It's good for overall circulation and that whole circulation process aids really well with recovery which then helps in the process of building muscle. Yes. And is that because of it, because it's more recovery, you manage your heart rate relatively low, is the body not receiving this kind of loud signal of endurance or push? Whereas I get on a piece of cardio equipment, I mean the signals are heart rates elevating, starting to sweat, having a hard time breathing. And so I feel like the body kind of reacts. That's the environment you're presenting it. More aggressively to that versus if I'm just kind of moving throughout my day, my body's not like freaking out like oh god, how long are we going to be doing this for? This is so difficult. Oh my god, we need so much more calories. There's a big difference being going on a stroll, which is what we're talking about, and doing something cardiovascularly to where my body needs to improve its endurance. So I recommend you go on daily walks and strolls to where it's a walk, like you're going out with your friend and having a conversation. Not like I'm out to go do a workout. That's not what we're talking about. The workout is a strength training. That's what's going to make this happen. It's almost parasympathetic, right? Yes. You're bringing that heart rate down, controllable, and it's recovery based. Totally.  So what you want to do is you want to eat in a very small deficit. So I'm going to ask you, Adam, when you were tracking this for yourself, what was your goal deficit wise? You know, honestly, Sal, I actually didn't really focus so much on the deficit as much as I did, like hitting my targets and not overeating. Got it. Right? So because I knew through walking and me training and stuff like that, that I was already going to create somewhat of a deficit through that. Naturally because of the activity that I was doing and the signal that I'm sending my body that it needs extra calories to build muscle. So I actually wanted to kind of hover around a maintenance more than I wanted a deficit. And what would naturally happen is as I built more muscle, my metabolism would speed up, which would then would take care of, you know, creating a new deficit. So I actually was more focused on actually hitting my macro targets, not actually restricting. I knew that as I built muscle, as I continue to work out in the gym and move, that I would slowly create that. And then what I was actually more watching was is my weight starting to drop too fast? Oh, I need to add calories again. That's great. So it was actually like, okay, hitting a maintenance, letting the strength training build the muscle to build the metabolism. And then once the metabolism started to build enough to where I actually started to see a dip on the scale or see my weight going out, then I would actually increase calories. So I did more of this like staying at maintenance, slight surplus, maintenance, slight surplus process of actually eating, but actually was leaning out. Yeah. So that's great. So when I say small deficit, what I was going to say is like, you're aiming for like a hundred calorie deficit, which is probably going to come out to like maintenance, which is exactly what's probably happening. Yeah. Obviously I was in somewhat of a deficit, but the psychological or the mindset, I'm glad you said that was like, hit with my body needs. This is, you know, this is what I figured out is my my caloric maintenance. This is how much protein and fats my body needs. I'm going to stay right in that zone or close to that as I possibly can. I know that if I'm just really getting started back into weight training that I'm going to start lifting these weights and it's going to send a signal to build muscle and I'm going to need that potential, maybe even surplus of calories to build. And then what will eventually happen is that I add one, two pounds of muscle, the metabolism will speed up and then I'll start to see the scale go down or leaning out. And then that was always my indicator of time to add more calories. That's awesome. That's why the next one is to interrupt with some small calorie surpluses, exactly what you did, right? Where I would go, I would recommend someone do like five days or six days of a tiny deficit, which almost feels like maintenance. And then a day where you're now in a slight surplus. So 100 below and then maybe 100 or 200 above for a day and then back to below. And then of course reassessing because as you continue to reassess, if you're doing this right and gaining muscle, because at the end of your journey your metabolism was faster. Oh my god. Yeah. No, I think when I started, I was eating around, I think about 2,800 and I don't know. I can't remember exactly, but I believe it was right around 2,800 to 3,000 calories was about where my maintenance was. And then by the end of this, I was over 4,000. Wow. So and that was just and very slowly. Man, it was almost a year later.  Oh, definitely not. I definitely would not have built muscle. I mean, I might have slowly kind of leaned out. But if I did not, if I did not get to a place where I was eating that many calories, I would not have also added the muscle that I had to speed them down. Was that a psychological challenge because I know a lot of people that go through like that surplus mode and then they interrupt it to, you know, break it up and do like a deficit and they come right back. It was it was such a mind fuck, but it also was one of the coolest experiences for me for being a better coach because I was so dialed in on where my macros needed to be that I knew I was doing the right things, right? But then there would be moments where I would get this feedback of I'd wake up in the morning and I'd look a little bloated, right?   Am I eating appropriate to what I'm trained like and oh, should I cut? And what I do is like, no, I have to trust the process. I have to know that I know that I've already calculated all this out. I'm in the right place. And then it would be like two or three days later, all of a sudden you'd see that come out. And what it was was my body just holding on to water and that little bit of holding on to water while you're also trying to lean out is such a mind fuck. And so it really opened my eyes for from a coaching perspective of God, how often does this happen to our people? How often do you abandon it because of those signals? Yes. And you know what? When you're in that position, this is from like the client's perspective, I don't care how smart your trainer is or how much you trust them, there's nothing they can say to you to make you feel different about what you see. Because I knew what I was doing, knew it was right, but would see it and it still messed with me because I'm going like, no, I'm looking at this mirror right now and I know what I look like yesterday and I look worse today. Yet I train, I ate the way I was supposed to, but I woke up. And so your body's ability to retain in a whole water and to look a little bit different day to day can be very deceiving for the, I mean, even the experienced person, much less the average person who's going through this. I like that. Yeah. So that's, I'm so glad you said that. So basically you're going for a small deficit most of the time and every once in a while I'll do a small surplus. But the key here is it's small. There's nothing massive in either direction. Now along those lines, you definitely want to eat a very high protein diet. One gram of protein per pound of body weight or even a little more. Yeah. Studies are pretty clear on this. When people are in a calorie deficit but their protein intake is high, even if they don't strength train, they lose less muscle. If they strength train, they end up building more muscle. So the protein aspect is going to be very, very important. So take your body weight and say, okay, that's my goal to hit that many grams of protein per day. And that'll make a huge difference of all the macro nutrients that one makes the biggest difference. Well, this is so important, right? So that if I, let's say I'm hitting my calorie goal in order to quote unquote build muscle, but my protein take is so low, my body might not, right? So I could literally, let's say my number is, you know, 2,900 calories is what I need, I need to consume it. And I hit my 2,900, but my proteins at 30 grams or 50 grams, the likelihood that the extra weight that my body potentially holds onto or adds is not going to be, that's right. It's not going to be muscle because I'm not giving it the right macro nutrients in order for it to adapt and build muscle. But I am giving it a surplus of calories. So those actual additional calories may end up getting stored as body fat, is that right? That's it. Yeah. Muscle, your muscles are made up of amino acids. Now the fat and carbohydrates play a role because it's more complex than what I'm saying. But this is pretty clear. This is one of those things with diet, because diet can be murky. But this is very clear in diet that a high protein intake in a calorie deficit is phenomenal for muscle.  Again, because it's so challenging. The next thing is we're going to talk about our carbs. Carb cycling can be really valuable during this process. Now it's mainly because when you're looking at your total calories, especially if you're trying to be in a small deficit, calories are made up of proteins, fats and carbohydrates. Well, proteins and fats are essential, meaning you need to have a certain amount of each just to thrive and survive. Carb hydrates are not essential. So when you're cutting calories, it's easier to take them from carbs because you're not going to take it away from, you're not taking away anything your body absolutely needs like you would from fat and protein. Now what is carb cycling? Carb cycling is the process of feeding yourself your carbohydrates around your workouts, for example, to fuel your workouts. Usable energy. Yes, this is how I would like to do it. I like to eat my carbohydrates a couple hours before my workout so I have the fuel during the workout to fuel the strength building, muscle building process. And then maybe the rest of the day my carbohydrates are lower because my calories are lower overall. That's one of the main ways. So when I did this, the way it ended up working out was like my medium carb day was basically caloric maintenance. My low carb day was a deficit and then my high carb day was a slight surplus. So proteins and fats are almost the same. That's right. Proteins and fats are the same. Carbs is what I manipulated. The carbohydrates also was what had me underlate my calories. And so I found that's another reason why I really liked it. It was an easy way to actually do that and just by following these macros. And I'd have these days where I'd get this carb surplus. I obviously love those days because I'm eating additional calories. That would fuel these great workouts. I also tried and scheduled the big leg day training stuff that I would do right around that. So I had this extra energy from it that would put me in a surplus. Hopefully my body is building and adding muscle from the surplus of calories. Then I'd go back down to a maintenance day and then I'd have this low. And I actually, and there's different, by the way, there's different ways to carb cycle I play with all of them. I used to run two low days, a medium day, and then a high day. So that's kind of like what mine ended up looking like. Well, I like this too with manipulating the carb specifically because then on the low days too, you're still like satiated when you are high protein. And that for me, it was like so much more manageable. My hunger signal didn't get too loud and I wasn't fighting that as much. Totally. Next up is to prioritize sleep. Here's why.  Losing sleep is a tremendous stress on the body. And evolutionarily speaking, if you weren't getting enough sleep, it was probably because you had to look for food. It's probably because food was scarce. Otherwise your body, I mean, we need sleep. We absolutely need sleep. Sleep would have been ruled out a long time ago if it wasn't absolutely a necessity because you're unconscious for however many hours of the night making yourself quite vulnerable. So it's something that you need and if you're not getting it through most of human evolution, it probably meant like we weren't getting, I wasn't getting enough food. I need to be up trying to find more food. So because of that stress, your body tries to slow its metabolism down. It's like, okay, well, we can't find food. Probably let's reduce our metabolic rate. And one of the best ways to do that is to pair muscle down. Also, let's hold on to some insurance because body fat is insurance.  So your body actually, what it does when you lose sleep is it modifies its hormone profile to get rid of muscle and to build body fat. It also will change your cravings to do so. You'll notice after one night of poor sleep, you crave foods, you have more of a sweet tooth, more palatable foods or things that you want both because they make you feel better but also because your body's trying to get you to eat more because of that stress.  You got to prioritize it. I can't help but think and refer back to when we were speculating about why all these bodybuilders were just getting massive and they would go to that place in the Middle East.  But really they kept the feedback was that yes, they're on antibiotics but really what transcended their physique was the fact they're so regimented with their sleep and they're so regimented with their nutrition and it's like completely scheduled and dialed in there with no interruption. Is it, would you say it's fair to say that getting good sleep is one of the best ways to naturally potentially optimize your hormones and getting poor sleep is one of the easiest ways for you to disrupt your hormonal balance. So fast. One night of bad sleep will change your hormone. So when you think about the role that hormones play in building muscle and fat loss and energy and all these things and when you understand that, that plays a key role to you being able to build muscle or lose body fat. And then you understand that sleep is one of the easiest ways to improve that and one of the easiest ways to disrupt that. You start to realize like, oh wow, like if I'm not thinking about that as a one of my key priorities in really balancing this whole diet, lifting, training thing out, I'm missing out on one of the biggest things that could impact my results. Completely 100%. When I say prioritize, we mean like every day. Not like, yeah, Monday through Thursday and then Friday night go to bed late, wake up late Saturday, so I have jet lag and then Sunday and then no, no, prioritize means every single night because even one or two nights of really bad sleep will wreak havoc on this particular goal. So this has to be as prioritized as the consistency that you're lifting weights or the consistency with your diet. It's literally up there with being just as important. If not more important because bad sleep will affect you negatively more. No room for error. Then yeah, then important, like you could have one bad day of eating, it will not negatively impact you as much as one bad night of sleep. Well, I think you brought this up, right? And I don't remember if you were referring to someone else talking to you about it or your own research was that when you have, like let's say you have like perfect, you go to bed at 9.30 every night, Monday through Friday, but then Saturday, you're out at the club till two in the morning without, it's like literally like your jet lag for the next two days trying to get that circadian rhythm back to normal. It is a three or four hour difference when you travel, puts you in jet lag, right? Two hour difference will put you in a little bit of jet lag. Well, that's what people do every week. Every week, they go to bed at a certain time and then Friday night or Saturday night comes, they go to bed late and they say, well, I'll sleep in the next day to make up for it. Well, you make up for it for a little bit, but what you're really doing is you're messing with your circadian rhythm. Monday comes around, that's why everybody hates Monday. Monday comes around, gotta get back on schedule. Why do I feel like dog shit? Well, it's like you came from a, like you traveling, you came from another country and you're behind by three or four hours and it takes two or three days just to catch up and that definitely messes with your hormones. So this has to be like seven days a week. Next up, now this is one of the least important things, but this can help a little bit and there are some supplements that can help with this process of building muscle and burning body fat. Really what these supplements do more than the fat burning is just the building muscle.  There really isn't anything out there that burns body fat. Some supplements out there might suppress your appetite for a bit, which can help, but really what you're looking at are muscle building supplements and the number one muscle building supplement that's out there that's been tested thousands of times is creatine and studies show when people diet and take creatine versus diet and don't take creatine, they keep more muscle. Now the one thing I will add to that though is this, is supplementing for areas where you're deficient can be incredibly impactful. For example, magnesium was life changing for me for getting better sleep. Like and we talk about how important sleep is, learning that I was deficient in magnesium and then taking the mellow every single night made a huge impact on my sleep. Vitamin D, right? If you're somebody who's very low on vitamin D. So I think at the point you're sows making is that all these fat burner muscle building, gimmicky type of performance supplements that are out there are really worth nothing in this pursuit, but what has value is your overall balance of nutrients that your body actually needs to be functioning. Yeah, that's a great point. I didn't even think of that. Yeah, if you get like a test to see if you have any nutrient deficiencies and you find any of them, that'll be a game changer because essential nutrients are essential for functions of the body, including hormone production, fat loss muscle building, health immune system, pretty much everything. So if your vitamin D level is low, if your magnesium is low, if there's an iron is low, supplementing with those can definitely be a game changer. Now on top of that, supplements like creatine can help because creatine is very, very pro muscle and indirectly anti-fat because of the muscle building process. Another supplement that helps is hydroxy methyl butyrate known as HMB. This is closely related to leucine. It's not an amino acid, but it resembles an amino acid and it is pro muscle sparing. In fact, they now put HMB in meal replacement shakes in like those retirement homes to prevent muscle wasting for older people. It's actually quite well studied. It's nothing groundbreaking. You're not going to take HMB and notice, but it may help you or prevent you from losing muscle if you start to mess up the calorie balance a little bit. And then branched human wastes can kind of do the same thing. Although I will say this, if your protein is high enough, then the value of branched human wastes in HMB starts to decline. Creatine is still valuable, but those two, not so much. Now the last step, this is important because as Adam was explaining, this is a constantly changing process.  At the end it was 4,000 calories.  Then you know what levers to pull, right? Then you know if the calories are too high. Oh, I gained muscle, but I also gained body fat. So let me drop the calories a little bit or I lost body fat, no muscle. In fact, I lost a little muscle. Let me raise the calories a little bit. This is a touchy process. Every single week, because if you are building muscle and burning body fat, metabolism is changing. I mean, your diet has to change as well. So this was the rule that I came up for myself. It was I tested every week, I took pictures every week, same time, same day, Fridays, first thing in the morning, always. But I would not adjust anything in my programming until two weeks. So no matter what happened, so I never, whether I, if I didn't like what I was seeing or thought of my progress installed, I never made a correction to the plan that I had set out until a good two weeks. And it was just what I had found. Because you're looking for a trend, right? That's right. I needed, a week is not quite enough. When you're talking about how slow the body builds muscle and burns body fat, a week isn't quite enough for me to get enough analytics to make a real educated decision on which way I could go. And you guys know from body fat testing, they can be off a little bit.  So I would always, I would still track every week, but I wouldn't make corrections and changes in the nutrition and the training until two weeks it. And then I could be a little more objective like, okay, here's my pictures two weeks ago. Here's my pictures now. Here's where my body fat percentage was two weeks ago. Here it is now like, okay, now let's, let's make a decision based off of that versus every single. Yeah.  They're not perfect. No, this could be user error, if it's electronic impedance. I mean, then you have even more factors that can make it inaccurate. So let's say you did a body fat test and it went up a half percent, which is like, I mean, statistically you could error up to one or two percent, right? You probably shouldn't change anything. Now, if you go the next week, it's up another half percent. Well, okay, now I know. But if it's back down, you're like, okay, it was obviously a mistake. Which is why I also like to pair it with the pictures because sometimes what might have happened is I didn't see much body fat change, but then I would see my pictures. I'm like, oh, I like the direction I'm going. I can see in that two weeks, like I'm making improvements. Oh, I see them. My shoulders are coming out or more. I see my waistlines coming in a little bit like, okay, I like what I'm seeing. And even though the body fat percentage isn't showing me anything super positive, it's not negative. And what I see, I like, I'm going to stay the course. So, or vice versa could happen, right? You could be like, oh yeah, I think the pictures look terrible or they look the same from two weeks ago. But then, oh wow, when I do my reading, it says I'm right on course with my body fat percentage. So, you know, stay the course. So I think using both of them to make kind of an objective decision around like, you know, so because I think the biggest mistake that people make when you're trying to do something and like the Goldilocks zone is to make a decision too soon that's too drastic. Patience is so important with this.  Doing another week or two staying right there, it's not going to hurt you. And what I found more often than not was trusting that process and staying right there for another two weeks, the next two weeks I made big leaps. Kind of weird how the body works like that. Like it's kind of like how we talk about how kids grow when they're when they're little. It's like it's not like they grew three in three inches. There's some resistance there. Yeah, well, sometimes they'll have like no growth. Right. You remember that on spurts. Yeah. And then also there's a spurt where I felt the same way about the pursuit of building muscle and losing body fat is like, you know, sometimes I'd have just not a great week, but my eating was perfect. My training was perfect, but then the results were kind of yeah. But then the next week comes and it was like, oh wow, I felt like I made a big leak. It was like a release. Yeah. So I would always err on the side of, hey, I can stick this out for another two weeks to give it a chance to show me the results versus, oh man, I didn't move very much this week. Oh, drop calories more. Oh, pick up this. And that's like when I did that, I felt like I always ended up over correcting. So when you're in this process and you feel stalled, don't, you know, test it for another week or two. It's not going to hurt you to stay at those calories, to stay consistent with the way you're training for two more weeks, to give your body the opportunity to take one of those leaps, because then what you might find is then the next two weeks. You're on the right track. You're like, oh wow, this was great. Love it. Look, if you like Mind Pump, head over to mindpumpfree.com and check out our guides. We have guides that can help you with almost any health or fitness goal. You can also find all of us on social media. So Justin is on Instagram at Mind Pump, Justin. Adam is on Instagram at Mind Pump, Adam. And you can find me on Twitter at Mind Pump, Sal. Today we're going to teach you everything you need to know to build a strong, well-developed chest. When I think of weak points and areas that I struggled with developing for a really long time, chest was up there with the work. Yeah, it was for me. It was for me for sure. I got more caught up in the weight I could lift versus how I was developing my body. I think it's one of the most challenging muscles to develop for most people because the form and technique.


my brothers and sisters many times we are unhappy not because Allah has not given us but because we begin to compare ourselves with others around us yet if we were to look at the previous nations and the generations we would realize that they were happier yet they had less than us if you take a look at it what is important for us is to focus on what we have to focus on what Allah has bestowed upon us and to focus on those who have less than us in this way we will definitely be able to thank Allah for whatever he has given us let's take a look at the verses of the quran Allah making mention of so many favors that he has bestowed upon mankind and jinn kind in surat الرحمن he then says which is it of the favors of your lord do you deny oh mankind and jinn kind is there any favor of Allah that you deny and Allah mentions them one after the other he speaks about the sun and the moon the creation of entire creation and everything he has made for us and heaven and what lies within the heaven this is the favor of Allah upon us similarly Allah سبحانہ و تعالى says in surat ابراہم he says if you were to try and count the favors of Allah you will never be able to count them you will not be able to circumscribe them you won't be able to jot them down and the challenge is if you take a pen and a paper and start writing down the gifts of Allah upon you the list is endless every day you will have to be writing and you will not come to an end and it will not come to an end so this is something that Allah has indeed indicated and drawn our attention to in the quran and Allah سبحانہ و تعالى says indeed mankind is not only oppressive but he is ungrateful as well he shows a lot of ingratitude on social media mashallah every week every few days we receive messages and some of these messages are authentic some of them are not authentic a lot of us would actually benefit from some of these powerful messages sometimes we forward them without even thinking and sometimes mashallah they are extremely beneficial and they do help one such message doing its rounds and i'm going to share it with you today because i believe it has in it what the topic is and what we've chosen today to speak on and it is to focus really on what you have what you definitely do have if you take a look at the kings of a four time we don't want to look at the average men of a long time ago we want to look at the kings we want to look at those who had the lot qaroon and the likes we want to take a look at what they had and compare it to what you and i have today in order to be able to thank Allah سبحانہ و تعالى we have in terms of quality much more than all of them put together have you ever thought of it maybe quantity wise indeed Allah says in the quran they were more powerful than you they had more than you in terms of quantity but in terms of quality and in terms of ease and facilitation we definitely have much more than them let's take a look at it if you start off by looking at clear patra who was one of these queens of egypt and the amount of jewelry she had today if she were to walk into one of the jewelry stores here in our own city i'm sure she would be shocked at what she sees yes she had a lot she might have had more in terms of quantity in terms of weight of kilos as a person but to be honest take a look at the quality of what there is how dazzling it's become how precise it's become and yet we complain there's nothing happening there's nothing here nothing there سبحان اللہ how much do you want oh man how much is it that will fill your belly or your mouth oh man you need to realize اللہ has bestowed upon us a lot such that if the kings of a four time who are mentioned in the biblical texts or in the quran in this previous scriptures we will realize that indeed they would be baffled by what they see today take a look for example at kissra this kissra who was the leader known for his bedding and his sleep he was known for his bedding his sleep he had a beautiful bedding if he were to recline on one of the restonic mattresses we have today your bed in your own home with the duvet that you have and the pillow whether it is you know they are five six different types of pillows so much so you enter an ordinary hotel and they have a huge selection of pillows what do you want would you like the one that goes down and up as your head moves would you like the one that is they call it the the memory foam would you like the one which is feather would you like the one which actually has in it a little pieces of wool put together what would you like imagine your bedding i'm quite convinced that if kissra had to come in and witness or have a night's rest in your own bed in your own house i'm sure he would start wondering where on earth all his was may Allah سبحانہ وتعالہ bless us we've been bestowed we have cotton sheets we have blanket we have so many duvets we have so much in terms of goodness take a look at what Allah has given us my brothers and sisters it's important for us really to thank Allah for what he's given us yes and take a look at those who don't even have a bedding from amongst those who are around us the refugees those who are struggling from Syria and Iraq those who have been driven out of their homes by the oppressors those who are from lands where war is taking place who literally have nothing they had in the past take a look at the wars of north africa whether they're in libya or egypt or anywhere else what has this done it's come with a lot of destruction people have lost their homes they've lost their property all this is something un islamic we are not supposed to be destroying we are not supposed to be killing we are supposed to be mindful of human life and the ownership of their property but take a look at them and where are we sitting subhanallah may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala bestow his favor upon us and upon them as well may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala never let us see difficult days but Allah promises in the quran that if you are going to be ungrateful then indeed what do you expect besides snatching away of those gifts of Allah Allah gives you something you're not grateful he says what do you want let's listen to the verse اللہ سبحانہ و تعالی says and this is a beautiful verse in the quran if you are going to be thankful grateful show gratitude indeed we will bestow you with increase in that favor but if you are not grateful no gratitude ingratitude this belief turn away from اللہ he says our punishment is severe may Allah subhanahu و تعالی not do that to us take a look at Caesar in his days he was well known for him being fan you know the fans from the heat there were so many of the slave girls used to stand around him with the fans and fan him down today we have a fan you press a button and it's on another thing we have air condition such that if you were to close the doors and if you were to decrease the temperature you would لطلی feel like you're in the north pole in the middle of summer you would need something warm to cover yourself in order to sleep we are spoiled don't you have far better than what Caesar had and yet he was one of those powerful wealthy leaders of the time we have more in terms of quality definitely a touch of a button next thing everything becomes cool take a look at the ancient arabians when they needed to drink cold water for example they used to put it into a little skin and put that under the ground in order for it to become cool today you have ice you have ice packs you have cold water you have so cold water in the middle of the heat in the desert wherever you are and yet we're not thankful to Allah we will still miss salatul fajr at will we will still not dress appropriately just because we don't realize that Allah has bestowed upon us so much we will still lie cheat deceive we will still continue in our sinful ways of adultery and gambling and whatever else it is and drugs and may Allah سبحانہ واتحالہ protect us may he save goddess really these are the gifts of Allah like we said just the air conditioning unit you enter the motor vehicle sometimes we are so spoiled with the air conditioning unit in the motor vehicle that an on ordinary day on an ordinary day we will not be able to survive without turning this thing on may Allah سبحانہ واتحالہ سبحانہ واتحالہ سبحانہ واتحالہ we have definitely become people who don't realize these beautiful gifts that Allah has bestowed upon us one might say it's man it's technology well Allah is the one who bestowed man with the mind with the brain and this is why qarun's mistake what was qarun's mistake his mistake was he said indeed whatever i have in terms of wealth i've been given it because of my own brain my own wealth sorry my own uh intellect and Allah says does he not see that Allah has destroyed those before him who had more wealth more might than him it was Allah who bestowed you with the brain in the first place so don't think you came first in your class because it was you who was bright it was Allah who gave you the brain and then you achieved because Allah سبحانہ واتحالہ bestowed you with that beautiful brain so take a look at qarun what was he known for he was known for the fact that he had so much of wealth that the keys to the treasures the keys to the locks of the treasures that he owned were so heavy that a group of men would find them difficult or would find it difficult to carry that's how much it was had he come today he would have noticed much more wealth than his much more wealth than his and you know how it's a resemble by a little plastic car imagine no need for men to get tired no need for anything else we're not speaking of the halal and haram aspect of islamic finance and non islamic finance we are just saying a large amount of money depicted by a little car have you noticed that subhanallah look how it's been facilitated no one needs to carry on you know carrying the keys of their treasures everywhere wherever they go as qarun used to do اللہ نے اس کیا سید ہے اس کیا سید ہے اور آپ کے لئے like i said we're not speaking of the permissible prohibited of it because that's a topic of its own but what we are saying is today a person can be so wealthy and you won't even know subhanallah because he just has to carry his car that's it may Allah سبحانہ واتحالہ grant ease to us may he protect us from the pangs of inflation i mean i called it that intentionally because wallahi it drowns people if they actually we have been in this part of the world through difficulty already where we've known what inflation is all about we ask اللہ سبحانہ واتحالہ to grant us all goodness in terms of sustenance and to bestow upon us the best in terms of his risk may Allah سبحانہ واتحالہ grant us all goodness i mean if you take a look at the people of mr topo the people of mr potomia if you take a look at the chariots they had they were known the place was known for beautiful chariots you know pulled by lovely horses and so on it was actually amazing magnificent they used to pride themselves the wheel was invented and they used to pull themselves and it was so lovely they could actually carry on and it was something picturesque really beautiful if they had to see one Toyota of today they would be gone that's it one little starlet you know starlet is one of the smallest of the vehicles you can actually buy here something that is minor one of the lightest micros that you have the nissans if they had to see one of those they'll forget about all their chariots don't you agree Allah has bestowed upon us much more in terms of ease in terms of facility in terms of quality than them they may have had a million of these chariots what happened where is the gratitude a lot of us seated here either ourselves or our fathers or forefathers perhaps they couldn't afford a motor vehicle perhaps they didn't have it for many years and perhaps they used to catch public transport and even beyond that they used to walk do you know that and yet today we sit and we deny the gifts so in the favors of Allah by missing our salah by wholesale turning against Allah سبحانہ واتعالہ wholesale may Allah سبحانہ واتعالہ grant us ease goodness every time another vehicle comes out you find it is much more comfortable it has in it much more facility now it has in it what you and i would call satellite navigation they call it the gps the tom tom the garment whatever you'd like to call it it's on your phone as well where would you ever in the wildest of your dreams even 20 years ago 50 years ago have dreamt that they will come a time when we will not be able to do without a phone telling us turn left after 500 meters and you have now arrived at your destination those of us who might go to countries we don't know we no longer need someone to tell us you know what these are the directions not at all you need them to send you a location on whatsapp and all you do is you open the location and you say you want to drive there the next best thing you know it shows you the traffic it shows you which route to use who on earth would have dreamt that some time back all the kings of a four time put together would be dizzy if they saw that subhanallah they would probably think we're living in a heaven we're living in a paradise if we had to talk about it they would be totally confused but we have it it's in your pockets my brothers and sisters it's really there how do we take this for granted when Allah has bestowed upon us this navigation should be taking you to your destination of the masjid five times a day it should be taking you to jannah really it should be showing you don't make this turn don't make that turn that is thanking Allah for his gift that is called gratitude when we understand where we're heading may Allah سبحانہ و تعالیٰ ڈرانٹس goodness and ease take a look at the people of baqdad and ڈرطبہ they were known for knowledge they were known for their books do you know they say the black rivers that flowed when the books were thrown into those rivers because of the ink the amount of ink that had actually flown subhanallah they had books libraries upon libraries wallahi my brothers and sisters do you know the little chip that happens to be in your phone in your little mobile phone 64 gigabytes 128 gigabytes holds more than 200 of those libraries if you wanted it to be in there do you know that this is a gift of Allah today their library is put together one hard drive of a few terabytes and it's over imagine what do we do the knowledge came to us this is what it is we still don't know we are more ignorant than them yet knowledge is at our fingertips subhanallah much more ignorant and even if we do know things we don't practice upon it so it's important we ask Allah's forgiveness and we ask Allah's guidance and we ask Allah سبحانہ و تعالیٰ to help us be thankful this is why one of the ڈواز oh my god grant me the ability to be thankful to you for the favors that you have bestowed upon me grant me the ability because one is to say oh Allah i thank you i thank you don't just pay لپسورس to it be really thankful by showing it in your action towards Allah سبحان اللہ الحمد اللہ i am here i pray i take my time when it comes to fulfilling the obligations onto Allah i think not only twice or thrice but that before sinning but i don't even sin because i thank Allah and whenever i have faulted as a human being i quickly repent to Allah because i want to thank him i want to be grateful to him i know i have faulted as a human being but i still want to thank Allah so i quickly repent to Allah سبحانہ و تعالیٰ take a look at the kings they used to send messengers and they used to pride themselves i can get the message from here to Makkah in four days the minimum was three days a message from مدینہ to Makkah three days that was like the fastest horseback you could ever have messengers got there today three seconds and the whole world has your message you have what's app you have blackberry you have you name it email and female اللہ سبحانہ و تعالیٰ grant us all understanding you name it it's there it's allah's gift really it is thank Allah for it it is you know a very fast way of letting the whole world know today we have social media how am i talking to you today i've i've drawn an example which was cited on the social networks and here we are shareing it and trying to make sense out of it and trying to look at which angle it is that we have more because one might argue that Allah says in the Quran they had more and they were more powerful yes indeed in terms of quantity they definitely did have more and in terms of their physical beings they were definitely more healthier and more fit than us but in terms of ease facility and so on we have much more than them my brothers and sisters they prided themselves at that time they were so so happy they used to show off how quickly they could get the message across and they used to get across a good message the prophet ﷺ he sent messengers across the globe to different parts of the globe how long did they take they went for months on end and they went with the message and that was the way today we haven't even used the quick messenger system that we have to spread one good message of islam one good message where is it مے اللہ سبحانہ واتحالہ گرانت اس گدنس another very important factor it is not good enough to send a good message on a friday alone let's change that let it be random any day every day you don't have to greet each other only on a friday we've made islam a religion of friday that's it جمعہ comes we greet جمعہ comes we send a good message for what let it be every day you might not see the next friday مے اللہ سبحانہ واتحالہ help us understand this نعمان who was a king in arabia he used to he used to boast about how he had cold water they used to keep for him and he had this cold water from a special skin that he used to drink from today you just go around the corner there there is a filter you press a button and the coldest of filtered water is out what happens نعمان if he came here he would think we are all the kings سبحانہ اللہ really he would want a filter from you and i مے اللہ سبحانہ واتحالہ help us yet we still do not understand the gift of اللہ سبحانہ واتحالہ المنصور he was one of those leaders and you know what he used to have hot and cold water mixed for him to have a bath people used to bring it hot and cold and they mixed it and it was a big deal because people used to bath with cold water to be honest this business of having hot water is something very recent so people used to bath with cold he had the luxury of people mixing it today mashallah you just need a mixer سبحانہ اللہ you open the tap before you know it is one you don't even realize the gift of allah upon you my brothers and sisters pause for a moment say allhamdulillah allhamdulillah all praise is due to allah thank allah that water that comes from that tap do you know the clean water the drinking water the water we bath within this part of the world really you can drink that water actually that's how clean it is people across the globe drink water that's not that looks murky the water we have is not even murky سبحان اللہ we are spoiled but still we don't thank allah سبحانہ واتحالہ people who dreamt about things they searched for these items their whole life i want this and they worked for it today سبحان اللہ tip finger tips you just go on to the internet what do you want ebay or amazon or bido buy whatever you'd like and next thing you have the item not only the item but the best deal and and the following day it's being shipped to you and a week later dhl has it delivered to your door step and you still don't thank allah سبحانہ واتحالہ this is reality my brothers and sisters we hope and pray that we've learned a lesson and i really hope we can focus on what we have focus on what you do have you have got a lot more than all the others who were considered powerful they were considered kings that was the height of luxury at the time we have it and we even have more take a look at the clothing the type of material you have سبحان اللہ it's amazing it has progressed over time something we should thank allah for and let's never take any of the gifts allah has bestowed upon us for granted may allah سبحانہ واتحالہ grant us goodness in this world and the next may he grant us جنہ وصال اللہ وسلم وبرکہ علا نبین محمد


I just want you have to have that depending on how you're defining it because some people kind of use that as a broad So let's define it as the weapon of mass destruction How about new oh Not the spew again Well, you know, it's kind of crazy because I think of all of the banning of stuff that's going on in this country banning of books Banning of books books don't kill people Banning of trans people you liar. I don't know any trans people Any trans people that have killed people No books are being banned to the public Schools have always been able to pick and choose which books they present to children That's exactly why you can't find books about intelligent design in schools because the states voted to remove them Books about intelligent design never hurt anyone books can't actually be harmful if they convince boys that they're girls because they like To play with dolls or teach brown and black kids that they're victims of oppressors who are white Which ends up being used as justification for the racial discrimination and segregation of white people Which is probably why you won't find any books by David Duke in the school libraries you imbecile Love love of guns love of guns, and that's the kind of society we're in Book and a and many of these people don't seem to understand that their actions are causing kids to die Linus bitch. It's going to be solved the day that Republicans realize that they love their children more than they love their guns Seriously, they're constantly accusing us of being the reason that bad things happen and somehow mysteriously It's always connected to our fundamental rights Disagreeing with them as hate speech and should be censored to protect people and now they're going for our other option of Recourse against authoritarians. I love my kids and I care about the well-being of kids who aren't mine That's exactly why I own guns to protect my kids and other people if need be we should use guns to protect kids in schools Just like we do our banks and stores I just love how they never have anybody on that show that can push back against their bullshit Or somebody might have mentioned the studies done every couple years that show millions of defensive uses of guns that no doubt Save the lives of kids the largest most comprehensive survey of American gun owners ever conducted Suggest that they use firearms and self-defense about 1.7 million times a year It also confirms that AR-15 style rifles and magazines that hold more than 10 rounds Frequent targets of gun control legislation are in common use for lawful purposes Which the Supreme Court has said is the test for arms covered by the Second Amendment These discussions are you know, they're gonna they're gonna keep happening get rid of what the bottom line is The bottom line is this is no discussion.  Why do you think it's okay for you to just have as many guns as you want just cuz you want them That's not how America works The fact that these women spew so many lies unchecked on this show is Another great example of why we can never ever let these people define what is and isn't disinformation The shooting that they're talking about didn't even use an AR-15 He used a handgun which he obtained illegally those strict gun laws by the way did nothing because the woke DA Let this guy off the hook for past gun crimes all things that they're obviously never going to mention coming from rich powerful Propaganda mouthpieces who all own guns live in gated communities and have armed security Again, how does taking guns away from law-abiding people solve anything? It doesn't they just want us all Disarmed in silence so they have no more opposition to their progress. All right, folks. That's all I have for that one Thanks a lot for watching if you enjoyed it Please hit that like button share subscribe and make sure to leave a comment to continue the discussion Thanks a lot again, and I will see you all in the next one


Live from Las Vegas, Nevada. It's theCUBE, covering Knowledge 15. Brought to you by ServiceNow. Hey, welcome back everyone. We are here live for day two of wall to wall coverage. Getting down to the end of the day here live for theCUBE. At ServiceNow, Knowledge 15, hashtag no15. Join the conversation on crowdchat.net slash no15. This is theCUBE, our flagship, we're going out to the events and I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Steve Bates, principal CIO advisory at KPMG. He runs the global technology business management practice. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for having me, good to be here. We could probably talk for an hour on just a couple of different awesome use cases, but the digital transformation is a buzzword being promoted by all the top analysts. It certainly chums the water in the mind of sea level suites, are we Apple, are we Apple? I want to be like Facebook, I want to be like Google, I want to be like that. I want to be, I got to be digital everywhere. All formats, all channels, gets them all hot and bothered. End of the day, rubber hits the road, you guys are in this business with technology, business management, TBM. Yep. What is that? What is this going on? Explain the dynamic between those two, well one's a buzzword, one's kind of a practice. What's going on with this trend? So let's take a step back and look at the method of how we run IT, right? The paradigm of traditionally running IT as a utility, that quiet, silent, automated environment where you're trying just to push down cost to the lowest possible level, right? Digital transformation is kind of blows that out of the water, right? It's no longer about an access to a single set of services that you have to go through a function to get, right? Technology has been largely democratized and is accessible to everyone. So how do you allow that to be, how do you get transparency into what's important, right? How do I invest in the right things if I can just go buy services with my credit card? How does the CIO get their hands around with the right things? Digital accelerates that so much more, right? No longer are we bound to a data center. No longer are we bound to just a set of applications. You need a way to manage your business of IT. That's what TBM is trying to do. It's establishing the tools and processes and credibility to allow you to do that. So for all those cloud buffs out there, we've been calling that shadow IT. That's the term being kicked around. Playing in the shadows, going behind bosses back, putting some stuff up on Amazon, getting your hands slapped, then saying, wait a minute, we should do that across the whole company. Yeah, is that kind of what's happening? Yeah, and shadow IT isn't necessarily a bad thing, right? It's R&D, right? That's exactly. Okay, you're in a penalty buck. Look, get back out here and implement this for the company-wide. Right, so when you use TBM as the method to manage your business, it's to be able to say, I want transparency into what we're using, regardless if it's- Pardon it, put some practices in place.  What's the platform architectures look like? What are the use cases? I mean, it's hard to rip and replace anywhere. So how do you guys look at that? And what is an example? Yeah, so you got to start with the fundamentals, which is removing the black box around IT, right? This is about getting transparency into who's using what in the estate, right? So an example, most of our clients start with is the use case of, I have no idea how much we spend on IT. It's shocking, I know, we all are surprised about that. Even 70% is for operations, what's the number? Exactly, so that beginning use case usually doesn't come from just the CIO. That really is typically coming to CFO, right? And so our engagement is often with a CFO or someone in the finance organization saying I need transparency to understanding what we're consuming, who's using it, and are we actually spending money on the right thing? So they know what they're spending at the top line or not necessarily because of shadow IT? Correct, so TCO is the entire concept of total cost of ownership, no IT. Oh, forget it, but they know what the IT department is spending. They know what's budgeted, right? Okay, it's a capital budget, and then there's this other stuff that goes on that they don't have a handle on. And so when you see that always increasing cost of IT year over year and over year, you tie that to, well why is it going up? No one wants to, but that's the old paradigm, right? What you want to say when you can use something with digital disruption is we want more technology, right? We want to actually turn that into our differentiator. So how do we use more technology while driving down the cost on things we don't care about? How do we do it? So that's the original use case is always around transparency. It's what you do with that transparency, the actions you take, that's interesting. That's what's next. And that's where you're talking around. So if I wanted to reintroduce an entire way of doing our virtualization structure, well I know now how much we spend on it, I know who's using it, I know what applications and services it's linked to, and I now can make a decision, a smart decision prior to investing in this, what the value is. And that's what we're doing. Yeah, well it's the second, third, fourth, and fifth thing that you just said. Yes. Those are the really hard things. Absolutely. I mean it's relatively easy to find out at least what's being spent, and that's hard, but what applications are supported, what business processes are supported, what value is it bringing to my organization? Well that's where you guys come in. That's the whole point. This is about the value play and making decisions and on what you're going to invest at linking it to value as opposed to cost. Cost is a component of value, but it's not the interesting part. You're only as good as the data you can get, so talk about the data impact, because running IT as a business, you need the data, so that's where you guys can explain that dynamic. How do you get the data? How does the data get into the system? That's something that I'm a little fuzzy on. Well let's start with the premise that this entire thing running IT as a business is built on credibility, right, and IT typically has very little credibility because they don't have good data, or the data that they do have, they can't defend, right? So how we start with it is with a fact-based conversation, right? So we do a bottoms up model that we'll typically pull from, and in the service now case, we're pulling from a CMDB, a hardware asset management, software asset management, we'll pull in contracts, we'll pull in to help desk tickets, any information that helps inform us on what the IT estate really looks like and who's using those resources. The data is in service now, the data is resident, so it's a trusted source, right? For organizations who do not have a trusted source, like for those that don't have a configuration management system, those that aren't using a service now, it's incredibly difficult. It's disparate universe of data that's all garbage and enriched and manual. What we do is we come in and we standardize that, and we create trusted sources that can be certified and defendable, and that's where you start. Yeah, because I see why you guys are needed because even if you have a CMDB, even if you have service now, you might know what all your hardware is, but you don't know what apps are necessarily running on that hardware, you don't know what business processes they support, you don't know what your dependencies are, you don't know what the users are, you don't know the value of those users. I mean, that's a complicated situation. And so how do you resolve that? We enter with what we have in our service hierarchy, right? So you typically find an IT hierarchy that rolls up infrastructure to some level of IT towers that allow us to see, well, here's kind of what the operating the OS layer is. Here's maybe some middleware, but organizations usually stop at that layer. Our model comes in and we build the whole stack. We start with for the bottom up and the top down at the same time. So we go from business capabilities down to business services, from business services to IT services and IT services and to capabilities all the way down the stack.  It's service oriented. And then you can look at what? You look at the application portfolio in sort of chunks or suites and then you've got granular. Yeah, there's so many different slices you can take. So let's just say you're an application portfolio manager in your common, pretty common role, but you want to know, let's say one of your use cases will allow you to rationalize my applications, very common, right? So how do I do that? Well, I can look at, if I find one lens, if I want to look at licensing, okay, that's fine. I can look at duplicate licenses out there. But what do I want to see if I, what's the ideal infrastructure to ride this upon? I don't want to get the whole stack from the standardized my platform on the infrastructure through the application. Applications portfolio managers should know that. They shouldn't just be the apps layer. They should manage the whole stack. What if I want to know, though, the applications that are tied to a service, a business service? I can't get transparency of that. There's no, there's no technology today that just simply rolls that off the shelf. No, you can't just do an automated audit, right? Exactly, that's what we're doing, right? Is we're building that layer, that intelligence layer on platforms like ServiceNow that allows you to get transparency from a business service, which is a language you and I would use as consumers down to a technology service, which IT and infrastructure and applications people do. Okay, so now everything we've talked about is challenging, especially in organizations that don't have a clue, which is the vast majority of organizations don't have this data built and mapped out. The hardest part still yet is, to me, if I'm going to make a decision to sunset applications and retire applications and rationalize my portfolio, I want to make it a value-based decision. So how do you deal with that? Is it you have a scoring methodology or some kind of balanced scorecard or is it other KPMG secret sauce? Tons of KPMG secret sauce. No, I would say that it's built on three things. We try to always tie back to existing business metrics. So don't create new IT metrics to prove value. Value's already been declared by the business, by the metrics they run the business by, right? So whatever, simple stuff, revenue, profit, customer experience, share, market. However you want to tie that, we look at time when we're building a portfolio of services, we're looking to tie those investments, those technology investments, directly to those metrics. So you understand that if this portfolio of applications is critical, let's say it's your CRM system, if it is critical to delivering this revenue, we are going to prioritize that as business critical. And you're codifying that tribal knowledge, you're codifying it based upon the people who know the business and then you've got a process to say, okay, now let's put that into the system. Correct, we come in with a framework that we think's 80% correct, and that 20% of enrichment that the business done, and we think that accelerates the process of getting to the value statement as opposed to, well, what is all the linkages between my applications and business? This is a great business because that's an organic thing. It's always changing. You're always in there. So you got to be, well, so okay, so what happens when it changes? How do I manage that? So you're talking full life cycle processes. That's why the TBM is a framework under which you manage your business. It's less about a service and it's more about almost an operating model. You've got to go deep and you've got to partner. You're in the books, you're full forensic. It's a full data position. But if I must see I say, okay, Steve, I want you to teach me how to fish. I don't want you to fish for me. You're not going to say no. No, that's exactly what we do. You're transferring knowledge, transfer. So there's extremely low value for us to continue to come back and do this as a project. This isn't a project to us. It's not an outsourcing project. Correct. You guys just say, here's you've been transformed go in your way and have a good business. So I got to ask you. Good time to go, Grasshopper. So I got to ask you. So when do you get the call? Man, my rooms are on fire. Finally, the second room is burning. Like all, I mean, I wouldn't be proactive. We're really good right now. I want you to come in and do an audit. I mean, is there a catalyst? Give me an example of the pattern. You don't have to name names or just give us the consistent theme you're seeing. When the house is on fire, breach, something's going on, shadow IT. What are the new use cases? Well, we often get called when there's someone standing outside a pile of rubble that used to be their home that is smoldering. Unfortunately, we'd like to get past that. Listen, I just started a new job. My old place is burning to the ground. No, I honestly, I think that it comes back to the drivers are an organization is either getting challenged on the value of the IT dollar. And it is a reactive stance.  And their credibility is gone. The CFO. Typically the CFO or the actual consumers. So you'll find that an enterprise CIO is getting hammered by the business unit CIO soon to which he is selling common backbone services as an example. When the equation comes down to cost, that is always the first point. The best organizations got past cost a while ago, right? That's the kind of drain that swamp and there's not a lot you can do. There's not a lot of levers. You start talking about value and that's where organizations always go. It's like corporate kangaroo court. Yes. You get warring factions. CIO saying, no, no, we're doing our best we're peddling as we can. It's their fault. They didn't give us the requirements. CFOs in the middle trying to blow whistles. You guys get called in. Everyone kind of goes to their corner. And you figure it out. And let's have a fact based conversation, not an emotional conversation. Yeah, but then, you know, this facts are there but get it sorted out, get the data, get the facts. That's the hard part. It's getting actually coming in with a method that establishes a fact pattern, a base, that a model that we can agree on and use a common language. You'd be shocked how hard that is for so many organizations because their data is so big. Well, the pressure point really is market. I mean, revenue's dropping, the client door they're not modernized. This is now the payback for bad investment decisions or, you know, hey, we should have done that. Instead of consolidating servers, we should have done that and done this. We have a client, you know, just we were discussing this today at one of our breakout sessions and we have a client who under-invested for about 10 years in area infrastructure. They're paying for those sins now and the problem is they don't know how to take the two to 300 million dollars and refresh money. They don't even know where to apply it and they don't know that they don't want to just rip and replace. They don't want to do like for like, right? They want to take digital disruption as an example. I want to say this, this is an opportunity for us to remake our landscape. We see great examples. The guest on it from the beer company on here is a fantastic example where 19 years in the business, craft beer is growing and the winds were perfect. They pivoted up with ServiceNow and what happened was they got the retail operation, they got bistros, they have distribution, manufacturing so they have not just one business, they have three. So they've now grown significantly. Stone brewery, so. I mean use that as an example of the new ITFM application in ServiceNow, and we're super excited about that, about ServiceNow entering into the TBM supplier ecosystem in this space. It's a big move because ServiceNow is really the only platform that has all of the data that you want, resident to it, right? As a platform, you can just feed it and by putting this analytics layer around this IT financial management portion of it, it accelerates you very quickly past transparency and gets you into the interesting conversations of, well, what would happen if I got into a new line of business? Let me model that, what would happen if I shut down this, move to this? It gives you analytics. It takes IT, it puts IT from a basement organization to full on, in control, the master of the universe, because you've got internet of things there and mobile. You cut every connected device, aka person and system. So now they can do a lot with that. I mean, really great position. Full position in the market. Absolutely. So I got to ask you, Steve, the CIO tag cloud of the stuff he or she has to worry about, mobile, cloud, social, security, service management, et cetera, is pretty complicated matter. So why should they be focused on technology business management and are they focused enough on technology business management? Is it part of their priority list? So I think it has to be. Most of the organizations that are mid-sized to large-scale enterprises, this is simply the way they have to shift to be able to meet this. They don't, think of it this way, that for every other function in an organization, there's a management system. For the finance group, there's an ERP system. For the marketing and group, there's a sales system. There's no such system for IT. There's no management framework for IT. We have lots of principles. We have frameworks like ITIL and COSO and COVID and on and on and on. But there's really no management principles there. TBM is kind of an international standard that thousands of companies are adopting that allow especially large-scale complex enterprises to make smart actionable decisions by running IT transparently.  What are you going to spend your time on? How do you prioritize? What is the language of business? Language of business is finance. So we teach CIOs how to speak the language of business. It sounds a little bit rudimentary, but it's truly not when you have- Speak wallet. Correctly, speak, follow the dollars. That's what we're doing through TBM. That's why so many companies have adopted this principle as the right way to run IT as a business. But the tech enablement layer underneath it, still very nascent, it's just growing. ServiceNow's entry into it is just this year. So it's going to be, it's what's next in our mind. So I got to ask the final question. Your outlook for ServiceNow buying opportunity. Of course, stock predictions. Bye, bye, bye. Stock took a real hammering on Friday and we kind of busted Frank's chops a little bit about that but he addressed it. We wanted to get that out there. But it's a platform that is really well architected for this agile cloud, native cloud, born in the cloud, whatever you want to buzz, where you want to call it and be enterprise grace. It's interesting how they backed in from enterprise to now agile. So, I mean, this is really a unique historic use case for vendors, right?  So interesting here, they're in the enterprise but now with consumerization of IT kind of happening. Interesting model. Do you see anything else like this out there? I think it's unprecedented, frankly. I think it's a new model that ServiceNow is setting the standard for. The platform, the design principle that ServiceNow has had of being a platform first and being able to be elastic and extend into non-traditional use cases, I think is at the core of why there's so much value. It's a very easily accessible system and it allows you to take the importance of dead-it quality, workflow, analytics and link them in a way that is just simple. I think Frank Slutman built a new boat that is faster and more agile than the big aircraft carriers that are enterprise. Software companies, I mean monolithic, big up-front licenses, I mean. Yeah, why wouldn't you as a consumer, why wouldn't you want an agile platform that I could start as a rowboat and build an aircraft carrier and then take it back to a rowboat again? Why wouldn't I want to have that flexibility? It's basically like Uber. Okay, trade rowboat for an expo. Business rowboat, oh, let's go. By the way, battleship modern, nukes, they have machine guns. I mean, so this is the model. Buy as you go, create time to value in the budget. So this is disruptive and innovative, like Amazon. But different, but the enterprise is great. But it allows you, I think it follows the speed of business. It follows the nature of the contractions and expansions of it, that's the model I think going for. If you're not enterprise grade, you're going to be niched and struggle to keep up with the change of business. And again, a platform like a ServiceNow allows you to scale and contract and expand into areas where you are comfortable right now. It aligns with your strategy. So it's purpose-built for the enterprise. It's not purpose-built for a function. I think particularly, I think that's powerful. Final question, because we talked about digital transformation, so I'll throw another word, buzzword out there, social business. IBM used to call the web e-business. No one uses that term anymore, e-business. That's the web, that's the internet. But they're also talking about social, which is now transcended to be more, okay, social media, all this stuff, buzz, more PR, PR function, maybe some buzz. But now you're seeing the touch points be more business-driven, workflow-driven.  My kids kind of figured that out already on their own. So they don't use email very much. So phone access is consumer. So social business, real, not real. Similar to the way IBM used to call e-business early on. And what's your outlook for this categorical new direction? Again, I think it's just the next logical step from the evolution. Like all things, the speed of these changes are just compounding. But go again, back to your digital disruption. Your mobile platform is just now, that piece of glass is now your foundation for everything. And that's just simply a fact. The paradigm, again, of having a very set of elastic technologies that can get any set of glass that you want and you can transact business with. Yeah, that's fine. I think the question that most people are asking is where's the great user experience associated with that, right? And you'll see KPMG is a great example. We acquired a company that just focuses on the social experience that you're having through this. And that's a science, right? And it's not just making pretty web pages like we did back in the dot-com days. The spinning logo, that wasn't, it's not the point. It's around what is the science behind me having a great customer experience which creates brand loyalty on this screen versus this screen versus my TV screen. And how do I make that consistent? I think you're going to see that more and more the science of the customer experience. We talked to John Cleese yesterday after we had our great bit, kind of for the folks out there saw it throwing the water, having a lot of fun. He said, I don't believe how Hollywood's making the big movies and then the kids are watching on this screen. So his whole point was old school like, hey, you have art now in the small screen. Yeah, I think that's the technology, business management angle to this is you've got to be able to shift and make the right decisions. Steve Bates, principal and global director of their technology practice and KPMG. The transformation is happening. Thanks for joining and spending time and sharing some great insights here on theCUBE. Of course, we believe in everything you're saying as well, so great stuff. We'll be right back with our next guest. Kind of winding down day two of three days of coverage. This is theCUBE, we'll be right back after this short break.


Good evening everyone and happy Halloween! Have a wonderful, wonderful Halloween weekend. It's Friday night, 6.15 and I have had a very long week. And you know what I'm gonna do tonight? I'm gonna drink a glass of wine or maybe two and watch the Halloween Simpsons. I had a great trade today in P, Pandora Media Incorporated. We listened to Pandora Music the entire time we were in the trade today. And I actually believe that it gave us good luck. The trade went on to work and go to actually the second one, two, three. It went to the third target. I wanted it to go to one other number, which was $11. It did not get there for the day trade today but it will go there. However, I gave it every chance in the world to do it. This was the longest trade with the most size that I think I've ever been in in my life. If the trade today had gone to the target of $11, I would have made over $10,000 in the day. That's five figures in a trade, in a day trade. So I actually had a great day, but I will tell you that I did give some money back waiting for it to go to the bigger number, which it didn't reach. I ended up giving back approximately like $1,500 to make it five, which it didn't go to the 11 today. But it was worth it because it could have made three times the amount. So I gave back 1,500 profit in the trade but I could have made five profit if that had dropped again. But then I saw that it wasn't and then I took it. So let's just go over it. There's the daily chart. The daily chart of Pete from the gap I played a week ago there was an amazing gap, a gap that opened and swooshed. A gap that's breaking a swing trade that I did. And by the way, everyone that signed up for a swing trade letter is, it's going. Monday morning, this could be at 11, actually. Now let me just get rid of this and I'll show you the, I was in this trade, this is, I literally was in this trade today from 9.30 to 3.30, 9.30 to 10.30, 10.30, 11.30, 11.30, 12.30, 12.30, 1.30, 1.30, 2.30, 2.30 to 3.30. I was in this trade today for six hours. I had 10,000 shares of it and was in for six hours as long as I've ever been in a trade with that much size. And I think as long as I've ever been in trade actually. Very aggressive today, but it rallying and I set up and I took it at 12.08, 12.09, whatever you got hidden here, boom. And it dropped. And I did the right thing in this because I got out of half and then it rallied back and then I added more and then it dropped a little, I took some out and then it rallied back and then I got in more. So I had, I was green, 26, 2700, $2,800, whatever, like for a long time in the trade, very early on in the day and kept lowering the stop. So if you are in an afternoon trade, that's the best thing to do. And I had it at the right place every time. So first we lowered it in here, I think to 96. Then it dropped again and then we lowered it to 76. Then it dropped again and then we lowered it to 65. Then it dropped again and we lowered it to 60. Then it dropped again and then we lowered it to 56 or 57. And here was the lower of the day. The lower of the day was 38. I had the target at 40 and then 35. Basically this was one of the targets or two of the targets, 305. See, here's what I thought. I thought it would go to 11 and I also thought it was not gonna break the lower of the day by 12 cents and then halt. But that is what it did. You see this here? So here's the lower of the day, which was 1150, which it struggled with all day and I had 100% conviction it would break it. But then it only did by 12 cents. But this still had a great move today. I made a lot of money, was very happy. I'm very, very happy. So at one point I was up 5600 or something like that. But the possibility of making over $10,000 in a tree and I knew I wouldn't lose in it because I had so much booked and I had to stop underneath the initial price. I wouldn't say I gambled on this but I had the conviction it would break. But you know what happens? The day gets on and the day gets late and the day gets late and then I didn't want to go over here and then I had to take it. So I had a really good day, a solid day in the P. I made more money in this stock, shorting this stock in the last week than any stock that I traded this entire month. It's very rare that I would trade something more than once. I traded this, I don't know how many times in the last week to the downside and it's worked every time I've shorted it and I really, really, really am in love with Pandora. I listened to it on my phone. I've loved shorting the stock. I've made more money in this in the last month than anything I've done. I've probably made more money in this stock alone than anything I've ever made money in and today I could have made over $10,000 in this trade and it's the longest trade I've ever held and I kept the room open. That's the first time I've ever kept the room open that long and all the years I've had the trading room I've never kept the room open until 3.30 in the afternoon and I did today. 15 people stayed with me and four people took the afternoon trade and held it on through. Actually, no, five. Five did and we all made money in it and it was a great day and we all made money in the morning trade but then the rest of the room people signed out. I usually am done in the morning but I had time today. I had time today and it was one of these weeks where I felt like, you know what? I wanted more money and I got it. I got it, it was worth staying through it but like I said, it did not go to 11. It's on its way there as a swing trade if you're in it but it was worth holding it and the day is coming where I'll have $10, $12,000 or whatever day. It's the day is coming and it was a fantastic day and I traded it so well I actually could not have traded this any better unless I get out of the low and it's nearly impossible to get out of the low unless you either take it out at a target or time it with the day or the market or it goes to an exact number and I felt 11 was reasonable but here was the problem. It was Friday afternoon, it was 3.05 and that was the reason really and also this did have a good move but you know, I'm just going back here and just let me just look at something here. You can always learn from something but once it broke, it probably when it had this hard bar, what it here, no. This should not have done this 55% retracement after the break. I'm seeing this now so after the break of the low, which was 50 and then it fell in hard. This shouldn't have gone, here's probably where I should have hit out of it that it wasn't going to go farther or like here, between 43 and 46 I should have taken it all out knowing that it wasn't going to break again. Very, very tedious, very specific, very tedious. I played it extremely well and very exciting to be in a trade that long and get paid a lot of money and actually have the possibility of making $10,000 in a trade. So that day is coming. I'm excited that it's coming. It's coming for the end of the year. Prediction, I will make over $10,000 in some trade between now and the end of the calendar year and we had a great, fun day in the room and I talked and I had put the mic off and then I had the music on. It was a nice day and it wasn't even stressful because the fact I was up so much money that I couldn't lose. I had booked a amount of money that was good and then I was in the trade and lowering the stop was good and that was the right rate of trade. So I traded with low risk today, made money quickly, followed it through and could have had just a huge, huge data and the month and the week. Either way, it was a very solid month and it was a bullish week in the market. Top to short this week unless you pick the exact right thing to do every day and yet I pulled it out. So this is Melissa with the Golden Gap course. If you're interested, email me at melissathesoxwush.com. The class, the next class is the November 7th and 8th. I love trading. Today, the conviction really helped me make more money in the P and it could have gone even farther. You will have great moves into the open and you also have often great moves into the close. This could have sold off more into the close. I'm saying here that 40, between 43 and 46 is probably was the bounce back. But this is lower. This is probably even lower on Monday. Do I dare, do I dare to short this one more day? Five days into the gap and I'm still shorting the stock. Amazing, amazing weakness and a beautiful, beautiful trade. Have a great night, everyone. If you're interested in signing up for the Golden Gap course email me at melissathesoxwush.com. It's gonna be a great month in November.  I really love training. I love shorting. I've called the market extremely well. My conviction level is very, very high. I am focused as anybody's business and I am excited to trade during the month of November. It's gonna be a great holiday weekend. Have a fun Halloween, everyone and enjoy yourselves and please be safe and have a great night.