Howdy, howdy folks. This is Anthony dream Johnson co-founder of the red man group CEO 21 studios here with today episode 104 of the red man group on sex dominance and submission today I'll be joined by two 21 convention alumni speakers That'll be Alan Roger Curry from direct approach dating calm and Pat Stebbin from Pat Stebbin calm Recently put out a few previews of Pat Stebbin speech his first one He gave in 2019 of the convention those you'll see on 21 studios and the full speech will be out soon And Alan Roger Curry. We just put out a second speech at the convention from 2018 That's been kicking ass on YouTube on 21 studios came out just recently about two days ago now That was on how manipulative time wasters exploit naive men very subtle title I'll bring a minute a second But before we do today show is sponsored by 21 University calm the world's most positive videos for men You can start there with a free 30-day trial you get early access to 21 convention speeches and red man group episodes They have no ads very clean very pro and we have iPhone apps coming out soon to iPhone and Android Without further ado, I'll be welcoming here Alan Roger Curry and Pat Stebbin to today's show Welcome boys. How you doing? Good good. Good. Thank you for having me good to be here Anthony. Yeah, good to see both of you again, man Pat you've been on the show a couple times before Alan. This might be your first time first or second Yeah, this is the first time I've done your Live version at 21 what convention but other than that. No, this would be my first time Nice, you actually saw a clip of that last night that one you're on with Socrates and Rich Cooper back in the day There were some guys on Instagram that pulled it and they're cutting clips out of it I didn't even know them people were tagging me and stuff and it was kind of funny, but it was good. It was savage So cool Also two guys Pat Stebbin doesn't have a book yet, but Ralph Ridge Curry has several books. This is my I think his most famous ones mode one It's what he's known for you can find that on Amazon He also has the beta male revolution and a few others like I think The possibility of sex Then I have a ooh said again mastering the fine art of verbal seduction and erotic dirty talk Yeah, that sounds good. I need to get it Yeah, so today's episode guys for you watching, you know live and then later on we're gonna talk about sex dominance and submission So to give some background to this I've been involved in the pickup community in the wider manospheres and so I was very young 17 and that was 2005 and since then I've seen you know, it's been there But very minimal content on sex how to get better at sex how it relates to game how it relates to personality How it relates to relationships? It's always been I think kind of neglected Especially in the 2000s There was a huge obsession with Alan remembers this because he was notorious for a direct game But back then the big rage was like indirect game versus direct game And I think the other day Alan's side kind of won out an indirect game This kind of avoidance strategy with women is waned off But throughout this time early things sex needs to be focused on a lot more and it hasn't that today will be kind of addressing that So my first question you guys as we open up this Discussion is how does sex relate to just picking up women as separate from long-term relationships separate from marriage separate from anything like that For young guys learning how to pick up women at bars and stuff when they can go back to them after this lockdown stuff How does sex relate to that? Like what does it mean and how is it going to affect their game with women? Well, I think sex is number one sex is one of our top three most powerful needs and Impulses according to Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. I think number one, of course, is food and water Number two is is shelter and safety from danger. Number three is Desire for intimacy sexual intimacy and in friendship So but what makes the desire for sex so interesting Is that it's it's a powerful desire, but at the same time society almost socializes us To not be forthright about that desire To kind of almost suppress it Women are socialized to be present themselves as the proverbial good girls And men are socialized to generally present themselves as well-mannered gentlemen And we're taught from the time we're young to suppress our desire not really disgusted Particularly in our very early conversations and I think that causes a lot of confusion and frustration For both a lot of men and for a lot of women and that's one of the things that provoked my original book More one because when I was young like my mother she always taught me Be a gentleman When you're talking to women say all the right things, you know Flattering things and polite things and she's a good boy. Basically. Yeah, yeah, exactly. She would basically All of her advice was centered around Be a polite good boy She would tell me specifically never talk about sex The thing I found as I went through high school my first few years of college is that On the positive end I did develop this reputation for being a gentleman But on the negative end I was getting friends owned a lot And then finally I broke out of that as I told the story Well, I tell it in my book who said again But the first time you invited me to the 21 convention My major turning point happened in summer of 84.   Yep. And I was never the same after that Eye-opening. Yeah. Yeah. So uh, there you go Yeah, well, I mean, I'd say that Having connection to your sexual energy is so important when it comes to game because You see a lot in pickup over the years is that guys would be would be learning all these techniques and Kind of like aping the behavior of somebody who maybe knew how to attract women knew how women's psychology works And even if they started to internalize that Everything at the end of the day comes down to the sexual interaction Everything before that is just a courtship A sort of foreplay to the sexual interaction. And so even if you know all that stuff about how to attract a woman Having issues on the performance side in knowing that deeper in your head Completely like it affects you on a certain level and women can really smell it.  I mean women love sex. They absolutely love sex. But as you know, Alan was saying That like being comfortable with the fact that you want sex That's like the biggest psychological hurdle I've seen for guys is that they feel like they have to conceal this Yeah, like no that that like yeah, enjoy the dance moving forward But the purpose of the entire thing is for sex.   Correct, correct And I mean I've said this before and I think it's sometimes Guys who are maybe in really bad marriages or really depolarized marriages can Sometimes misconstrue it but one of the things that that Dr. Robert Glover said in his book was about that like men and like relationships should just like say like I want to have sex And it's like that's really beta. It's like well, I get it like it.  Like how are you, you know, just trying to maneuver into her Offering it.  Yeah, and that is Like and that's not even anywhere close to a high level But just that one little paradigm shift Is it's so game-changing so you're saying that would be like a baby step getting out of a death spiral and a bad relationship Correct Because if you say and if she says no and then you can go off and do your own thing at that point Like the issue that guys have on a fundamental level is that they devalue their own sexual power versus a woman and they they feel that If if a woman doesn't have doesn't sleep with them that that it affects them in some way Rather than becoming really autonomous in their own energy and going off and Like don't chase a woman for sex and I think in a lot of cases You know if a woman doesn't doesn't understand this.  It's a little bit sooner than I was anticipating But I think we can kind of bounce around How does that relate to dominance and submission because a lot of what you just said pat and I think alan could hop in on this too, obviously Uh, like if she can control these things, how can you dominate her? And if that is indeed what she wants, uh, physically psychologically emotionally and all that, how are you going to do that? So there's what you're saying relate to that Or alan well from my experience, I would say that uh the starting point I tell my clients it starts with options um I use the analogy of an employer and an employee If you're interviewing a candidate For a job with your company And they come to you and say Oh, I want this job so bad. I want this job so bad. I have no other options For employment. So I really need to be hired by your company What's good?   I don't have any other workers. Man.   Are you a good fit for my company? And then you got to make sure She's going to do the job just like anybody else and if she fails to do the job like anybody else She can be fired like anybody else Trump's though you fired you fired No, alan. I mean, I love that analogy. I use I use a very similar one with my clients and her looks Are her application and she gets the interview If she's got the looks and she's got the femininity But she doesn't get the job if that's the only thing she has they offer There's so much more that she has to bring you to the table And Unfortunately a lot of guys they see a woman who's attractive And then it's like, please, you know, like I'll make you the boss, right? You can take over my company and it's just not the way you want to you want to think Yeah, like what alan said that it just invite I was interpreting it as basically you're inviting a lot of manipulative behavior and abusive behavior It's like what else is she what else is she gonna do?  And I guess it starts there You know if they throw away that dominance and that power that women don't even want in the first place Then I try to you know, should test you out of it, but they don't want you to win or they want you to win They don't want that they don't want to win that interaction It's funny. Uh, you said that Anthony going back to that that might what I call my turning coin story That's what that woman in that story did to me.  You know, she didn't want me as you say she didn't want me to give away that power She wanted to she wanted to test me and once you could say I basically passed her test It was so amazing this woman as you know the story anthony It was a triple day that the beginning of the triple day say the first hour of it She was like this loud talking sassy mouth smart eloquent bitch And then when I did pass a shit test And I was more one with her Like within I'd say less than a minute literally Her whole behavior and demeanor changed Came like ultra submissive. It was almost like It was almost like she said, okay, you win.  Yeah Yeah, and uh and that really if I that changed me like I would say for the rest of my life Because I was like So this is how it works I mean, seriously, I was like amazed but anyway, but yeah, that was a good point. You may ask me is that a lot of men I don't think some men consciously realize that they have power that they either Underutilize or worse. They give away And my question to them god, why are you doing that?  So if you look at it, there's a really good book I don't know if if uh, if you guys have read it, but is there anything good about men? And um, it's by Roy Bomb bomb. How are I believe he's a really really prestigious psychologist? Uh Kind of like a thought criminal at this point But one of the things that he he points out is about You know the bands between men and women in terms of intelligence and ability And how on average men and women are Sort of the same But the men have a much larger band than women. So at the very very top of the scale men are Men like men dominate the talent and intelligent quotients But they also dominate the bottom with criminals and people who have mental disabilities So the point of this where I'm getting to it is that A lot of guys are thinking that women are above them But a lot of the guys, especially that we're working with Right, there's sometimes guys who are in like the top, you know, 10 percent of income in the country You know, they're they're in the top. They're they're way more fit than the vast majority of the population Objectively, they're actually way above most women. They're like a nine or they're like a nine On the scale and they don't realize it. And so this this concept for these guys like Oh, like, you know, the the eggs are like women are so important. I have to do this and that's like No, dude, if you want to even take that sort of biological determinist argument Your sperm is the most valuable And the women are sort of just like they all want you you are the important one And it's very powerful for a lot of guys that understand this perception shift to realize that They're lowering themselves as they're not even being objective about where they're at Yeah Yeah, I was just thinking I want to get into another topic But it just made me think too of all the guys I've seen I was thinking about tweeting this the day I've seen so many guys just in Orlando just in central florida that Are probably in that direction you're talking about they're the top They're much much higher in the in the percentage of the population than they realize they just have no idea And you'll see these guys they'll be tall, you know, six two. They'll be masculine You know build the puma masculine in a way physically Really good shape. Uh, look like they make decent money.   I mean, I wish for the best You know lose weight getting shape look beautiful if you can but Like these guys I would see above me even in the in the you know The smv and my age bracket and it's like why are you even talking to this woman?   How how are you alpha in that regard?  They were raised that way.  Yeah, I think it's interesting and also how some guys They they know how to compete against men. They know how to they may understand that they may understand that pecking order But they don't understand women at all. They don't understand how women operate And so to women they act like sims or they think that well if I can just overcome this guy Then she's going to want me which is a very much like the frame of that is very passive And they're actually interestingly enough the exceptions to that who are very often more like artist types Who are perhaps not so good at competing with men? on a masculine level But they understand how women operate and they can sleep with women very easily And I think unfortunately a lot of guys conflate those two things and and you can see the sort of white knight syndrome on a massive scale Or I'm going to beat up that guy like there was that video that went around It was somewhere in eastern europe, I think And there is this guy who like, you know, he was with this Apparently an attractive girl. I couldn't really see her face.   I think a little bit different from that Well related to that though and it's 2018 speech. I think it's the recent one that came out Uh, I think he was talking about in your speech allen Maybe you can refer to it or clarify it, but men will Do well sometimes like competing with other men, but then women will basically bully them And I hadn't seen it put that way before and I didn't mean I didn't even thought of that That's a really good way to do it You'll see a lot of these women who have been masculinized by feminism and culture and blue pill crap and whatever And you know the first chance they get a guy will fail a shit test and then he invites this and then she bullies him And then this is extremely unattractive and then it you know blows up in his face He gets a real estate in the friend zone who knows what but a lot of it's actually bullying behavior And you actually use the word bully which I hadn't heard used before in that context So that was pretty interesting allen Yeah, because a lot of men just on the word the term bully The most men associate that with another man Yeah, you know when they hear bully they automatically think of you know, they're The classroom bully from when they were in elementary or middle school Or when they went to college or a boss that was a bully, but it has male connotations to it But one of the points I try to make the man is that Women are just as good if not oftentimes better at bullying men than other men are They might not do it in the physical way, you know the number one way The average male bully operates is he'll come to you with the attitude of I want you to act the way I want you to act which is basically subservient to me And if you choose not to Your consequence will be i'm going to beat you up.     You need me to buy you some clothes What do you need me to do? And think about it once women see you're willing to just give in to their demands like that Automatically in their mind, they've lost respect for you Even if they continue to interact with you Sometimes the woman will leave you alone because they just Develop that much contempt for you. You're like a backbone But other times if they're more manipulative they'll continue to interact with you But in their mind they've they've already lost respect for you.  It was late. I didn't feel like doing it.      Like I'm not, you know, not every guy needs context specific that worked Um and my personality and the dynamic of this relationship But that's that's a much better option.  I didn't feel like driving You know, it was late. I had to drink a radio.  Anyway, I mean it could be real You know, she could call some other dude up. I was like, you cares.  Bye Yeah, and then she really trashes herself even more in your in your reputation, right? Because it's like, well, you're really just a slut Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I've already knew she was a slut. Yeah, I know.  I was just rolling off the tongue.  I was like beach slut She lived near the beach so So that's actually segue into something, you know, I was just kind of riffing on here but Well, let's do this first So in the mana sphere my experience of it with the pickup community and seduction community and everything beyond that Most of the time you see with sex anything related to sex advice and talking about it A lot of it tends to be technique specific. It's like do this not this all this bullshit But the other day we put out a video on to new and studios from a jay cortez one of her speakers And he proposed the idea that sex was like 90 psychological only tempers kind of mechanical in terms of being good at it Maybe even more defend, you know, fundamentally what it is, but also like getting better at it getting good at it having really good time So what do you guys think about that idea that sex is 90 psychological only 10 physical kind of mechanical Well, I actually first learned that um In human sexuality course in college Uh, I remember yeah, I took a human sexuality course and that was one I think the percentage was a little bit different. I want to say my professor's percentage was 80 20 but essentially the same thing but Yeah, he was talking about that during one of the classes. He said he said a lot of a lot of you men and women Particularly you men probably think sexual enjoyment and satisfaction is all about The physicality of the act and and as you said the mechanics of the act But he said actually that's wrong. He said sexual enjoyment and sexual satisfaction at least 80 percent of it Is psychological. I think he said psychological and emotional. He said psychological and emotional And he said only about roughly 20 has to do with then he gave a few examples like he said you could say Being bad with a woman that's beautiful and sexy, but I don't know if her one of her sisters just died or basically Her her mental space was somewhere else He said that's not going to be enjoyable sex Even though you might know all the right positions and how to move this way and gyrate this way He said her mind is somewhere else Thinking about, you know, again the death of a sister or the death of a grandmother, whatever it may be That's not going to be an enjoyable and satisfying episode of sex And so that was one example. See gave so Yeah, you know matter of fact and none of my books particularly my most sex-oriented book would probably be Who said again But I don't even talk about mechanics and in my books I I talk about things to do with erotic dirty talk And using that to your advantage because what I found It's and I said this in my presentation. No, I think this was in 2017 21 convention presentation, but I said A woman's mind Always bats a thousand Always bats a thousand what I mean by that is that A lot of guys will say to themselves. Well, if I do this it'll turn on and if I say this is a turn on And there there are some things you can both do and say to turn a woman on But what I like to do and this relates to my title will say it again I like to have women repeat things That are kinky or out of their character matter of fact, it's interesting or a quick side note I had a woman Listening to me being interviewed and I mentioned the same thing It this let me know I was on the mark She wrote me. She said Helen Why would you say what you said for free? And I kind of wrote us some smiley face. She said no, I'm serious She said you should never give away that for free. She said I know as a woman what you said was right on the mark But you should be charging for that. She said you should never say that for free But yeah, the thing I said essentially now I'm saying to give for free is that When we get turned extra turned on Hearing something come out of their own mouth. Yeah, this is an active submission basically, right?  This is years ago And it's funny things you pick up just from watching the tea. I was watching this tv morning show And this woman was interviewing this uh diet expert nutrition expert And she was asking about the ins and outs of dieting So he he made this point.  You should never say I'm not going to eat Chocolate ice cream and the woman hosting the show was like why is that then he went out on the uh the delineation of how your Uh conscious mind works versus your subconscious mind works and since then I've done my research on how both works I'm not going to get too linked in academic, but essentially he said When you say I'm not going to eat chocolate ice cream Your conscious mind hears that whole statement But the way your subconscious mind works It associates certain things with pleasure enjoyment satisfaction and other things with pain Frustration boredom.  I had with a woman We were working on an election and we got into these political debates and the night was wrapped and Down and uh first my one of my male buddies was going to give me a ride home. She said no, I'll I'll take allen on I Yeah, so so we go to this plane.  Oh my god.    Mm-hmm.  I said, you know, she said no, I'm not I said, okay, then see it She said you want me to say that, you know, that's easy for me to say. I said didn't say She said allen.  I said say it again.    It worked charm. So, uh There's an old um, there's an old christian saying i'm a christian, but i'm familiar with it and it's that words become flesh And I think this is what this relates to is if you say something enough times like that And this could be in almost any context, but especially with sex Yeah, I've done I have experiences similar to that alan not quite as down to the t but I've It's like a it's like a feedback loop they get into and like, you know a you know They still would you say the seventh eighth time all of a sudden her head's going down and your lap's sucking your dick It's like a little spiral they get into and yeah, there's no serious trauma there I think that's going to be pretty consistent for guys. That's a good tactic good technique yeah, and And that's that's a that the whip it out technique and and what you just said alan those are the techniques I think more guys need to be learning Because unfortunately a lot of the I don't know how much of this has to do with just sort of mainstream Cosmo sort of guide to sex that's been put out and sort of infiltrate its way into pickup circles But you learn a lot of you know, you understand the vagina right you understand You understand like where things are you understand how to do certain techniques and there's value to that Of course, there's value to that but the problem is that Guys have gotten almost into this mechanical thinking and I think it comes from frankly a lot of the women who put that stuff out there are Have severe have they have sexual dysfunction.  I got to make her squirt I got to do this this technique or I got to like touch her clit in this in this right way I gotta and what happens is that they're actual even if they get good at that stuff They're neediness starts to shine through and so maybe in the very beginning of an interaction with the girl They can they can give her a really amazing sexual experience because they just know how how women, you know, women's body is But over time They're going to start to lose frame in the interaction the neediness to make her come And to make her like to if I touch you here, you're gonna have a response It starts to collapse over time And that's why I think that this pushback that's been happening recently about you know shout the rivulino right face fucking this idea of pulling the the fundamental polarity back Towards the guy and the woman pleasing the guy because the the woman pleasing the guy pleases the woman Yeah, that other stuff. It's it's good to know but to not lean on it as a priority I was thinking too pat that back in the 2000s Pickup community and manasphere Even today you still see it but back then especially you'd see a lot of this instructional mechanical advice If there was any talk about sex it would be like this it'd be some Some long posts whether the guy was either full of shit or even like a keyboard Keyboard jockey or he knew his stuff and it was legit or some combination of the two But it was always this mechanical kind of thing And I wonder if a lot of that's just because guys who had drawn to the manasphere are like super analytical in the first place So they gravitate to the stuff either in person You know when they're going you know the beginning of relationship of the girl banging or whatever Or even just you know trying to figure it out in their own They just gravitate immediately to all this stuff like how do I like the mystery method?  And they know they don't they don't think about anything more fundamental to what's going on That's funny. You said that's super analytical, man. I remember when I spoke in London in November 2010 A lot of the guys who attended this particular conference Were really intelligent guys a lot of them had you know masters degrees phd's But in many cases their intelligence Was their weakness?  Like, you know, and I mean like dude It's not that serious But they're always a lot of guys are always trying to see if What might cause what effect cause an effect? What does it mean if if I say this and then she says that What does that mean? And sometimes it would be on point it might be relevant, but uh equal if not greater number of times It was totally irrelevant to the point where I would tell guys For me, I would tell my clients just concentrate on what you want on what you want to verbally communicate to one What what desires interests and intentions don't try to anticipate What's going to be this specific reaction? What's going to be this specific response because the thing guys need to realize is that And this is one of the things that was one of my early epiphanies Is that a lot of women's reactions and responses cannot be taken on face value meaning Lot of times you could say xyz to a woman And she could seem to be giving you a positive response but It ultimately ends up with you and and her friends up Then on the flip side, you can be saying abc to argue another quick story Gig her perfect example speaking of london. I think I told the story when I spoke in london There was one time a female friend of mine in LA gave this party and she introduced me to this woman Let's call her danielle. She introduced me danielle And then, you know, I wasn't at the party for whatever reason I wasn't totally more worn with her like I wanted to be But then I ran into about a week later in venice beach area in LA and i'm like Not only more one, but what I call more one hardcore meaning that I was really like just x-ray triple x-rated language really explicit in the zone and At the time she has this negative reaction.  What's wrong with you? Who taught you how to talk to women this way? I mean she was going off of me and I'm naively at the time I bought into it, you know, I treated it basically like it was a negative reaction So she ended up saying, oh, I gotta go so now Fast forward a week. I'm talking to the original friend who hosted a party who introduced me to this woman and we're talking about different things And she says so alan I heard you ran into danielle That she said it like, you know like and I'm like Why why would he talk much?  I said, what else is there to tell?  I'm like, what are you talking about? I was bold one with her And she had a really negative reaction to it. And then she went And then I get curious. I said, why are you going home?    I couldn't even talk him out of being nasty And it's funny sadly for me. I was her name at this time. It's like down on mid late 90s I was like, are you sure? She was like, yeah, I'm telling you. That's my girl.     Fuck.   Tell me that she couldn't wait to get home and masturbate. I was like You can't take these women's a lot of their reactions on face value Well, it's dissonance, right?  It's really about reconciling that stuff. It's about Bringing out that dirty from a from a girl who maybe thinks of herself as good and allowing her to be both And I think that you can also do the same And maybe a little bit more difficult for a lot of guys to get over themselves because a girl who's got that sort of whore energy She's certainly used it, right? But there's an account The honest misogynist and he talked about like turning a hoe into a housewife And you can do the same thing you can bring out the fact that you know, you don't just have to be You know, it's it's a little bit not relevant to our conversation here But you can you can get the best of both worlds from a girl But you have to be willing as a guide to go into both spaces And a lot of guys are they don't get like see all these guys who are like not getting her sexual best Well, they're not getting her sexual best because they're not connected to their own sexual energy They're not out of her, you know I would I would add a another theory to this as well.    And then even though you're being explicit So I think there's an element of like sexual greed And then it just ends up being kind of stupid for both parties But uh, but most of the time I think it would be more like, you know, she's just it's a distance to them That pal was talking about Or just not comfortable with it or whatever Well, going back to what you said pat Um A lot of what you said is actually what my book who said again explores In a few chapters like I uh, I have a whole chapter about the effects of the Madonna horror complex And what I basically create is this ranking system. I rate women In terms of their sexual sensibilities from one to five And for example of five and who said again would be a woman Who has such deep-seated social programming and cultural conditioning That she's trained her mind to only really listen to her good girl side And then a one would be a woman who's just the opposite She's totally free-spirited and sexually liberated Has no problem being open about her her slut side And then the twos threes and fours of those shades of gray in the middle And um, so yeah, you were correcting everything you said and the problem with a lot of men One of the biggest problems I see with a lot of men in regards to this you got some men who are so Judgemental And as you you mentioned not in tune with their own sexuality the combination too that they don't embrace both sides Of the woman like because like you said the 100% truth is that The vast jury women they have both sides. They have a good girl side to them and uh, a kinky freak side or side to them And as a man, you got to be willing to Embrace both sides and you got to be willing to give women permission to open up to both sides But a lot of men foolishly they shoot themselves in the foot because of their own judgmental attitudes They don't allow that to happen You if you want a woman to really share her full Fantasies with you if you want her to really surrender to you fully and really feel like you can trust you fully you have to You have to be approaching her in a non-judgmental way and when she shares that stuff she shares something about You know she has a fantasy of being of sleeping with another with you know with with two guys, right? Or she has a fantasy of having like Three sons with girls You can't judge that you can't judge that stuff from her if you want her to really open up and And allow that entire stuff out because she's trying she may feel a little uncomfortable with it herself Or she may sense that you're not secure enough in yourself To be able to to handle that and I think a lot of guys unfortunately Uh, you know, they want their cake and eat it too They want they want a woman to completely surrender to them, but they're actually not willing to receive The woman's full surrender There you go. Yeah to be responsible for it. Yeah Yeah, I was seeing a Gortez in his speech that came yesterday The 21 convention in poland was talking about that. Let's actually talk about that here So a Gortez was talking about that responsibility associated with dominance and submission and things like that But also the difference the question he got asked by an audience A member of the convention was the difference between dominance and domineering Which is something I've heard a little bit in the manisphere, but in wider culture. There's usually no distinction, unfortunately I think there is so do you guys have thoughts on that dominance versus domineering? In a short-term relationship or a long-term one, you know, however you want to approach it I would say that domineering comes from a position of ego And more it's more of a projection. It's more of like a bravado Right. So it's it's I want everybody to know that I'm like it's like trying to over control things And it's I want everybody to know that I'm that I'm the boss rather than implicitly being it Being dominant is like a state of of energy And you if you talk to someone if you talk to a woman Right, she's going to feel that from you whereas if you're domineering You're trying to push farther into overcompensate in some way and it is true. I mean, unfortunately, there's a lot of red herrings and so or whatever being done with with you know feminist about About masculinity, right? They they tend to take the distortion And elevate the distortion like this is what being this is what masculinity is Like being a dominant man is being this person who doesn't care and runs rough shot of everybody else It's like no, that's a distortion. That's not actually what it is But being dominant and being masculine Are healthy there you're aligned you're you're aligned with yourself. You're aligned with truth, frankly is my perspective And women naturally they feel a trust around that they feel a trust because they feel that you don't need to show it You don't need to overcompensate with it. It's there Yeah, I would I would generally agree with that. Uh, I know in my btsm experiences number one thing man need to realize is that There's a fine line between being uh dominant and abusive and um And so there's some man who I listen to certain podcasts certain live streams They think certain women should should be feminine and submissive to them just by virtue of them Being a member of the male gender and relatively life. That just doesn't work that way and um And one thing like we talked about earlier About men Coming across as needy You can't really be needy and dominant at the same time That's almost oxymoronic and uh the underlying of any btsm dom is that You can be replaced at any moment. Just like going back to my employer employee analogy You can be replaced and see like that that's one of the reasons why i didn't like the uh That first movie version They had three parts. So this would be part one of 50 shades of gray Is they had the character of christian gray? He was supposed to be this btsm dominant, but he was so Like emotionally sensitive and needy Wounded and I was like they don't they don't jive, right? They're not in the real btsm world that They just didn't that just didn't play to me. It didn't resonate with me Because yeah, there's a certain calmness with your dominance When you're a btsm dom and so yeah when I think of the domineering I think it's somebody that's there's overbearing Abusive a borderline abusive and basically everything that uh pat described like frantic and stuff.  I think it's for me. I've heard I've heard of the name Yeah, iceberg. So he wrote this book called pimp. He used to be again a legendary pimp in 70s and 80s He wrote this book called pimp the story of my life and one of the excerpts he has in there He was he was talking about a woman being a bitch, which was interesting. He said He said i'm paraphrasing last words, but essentially he said a lot of people think because i'm a pimp That all my whores would automatically You know get in line And follow all my demands commands and requests.  My fiance is is very ultra feminine ultra submissive and You know our relationship like we haven't had i want to say we haven't had one argument yet Like i hear guys someone they argue with their girlfriend and they argue with their wife You know i lay things out at the beginning I we even have a bdsm contract and uh I don't have any problem Yeah, and uh because she she's she's just Natural desires to be feminine.  She were respectfully say well, you know, what about lasagna, sir or something like that? But But uh other than that, you know, we don't have any heated exchanges none of that and that I remember this article came out in 2013 where they had done this survey and they actually ranked uh marriages and relationships that had elements of bdsm principles cause a higher degree of peace of mind And more romantic and erotic passion and there was one more than peace of mind higher I think it was just third thing. I think it was just less arguments as already mentioned Compared to traditional marriages and traditional relationships. They had no You know bdsm elements involved in it And i've seen that in my own relationship Yeah, I know one of our speakers texas dom. I think you met him in 2018. Oh, yeah, i love texas dom Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, i tried him on today, but he had he has a bunch of family over right now in texas, but Um, he turned his whole marriage around with bdsm basically Um in his speech he talks about that he lays out, you know from the divorce those incoming They had been married for a long time. It was falling apart She found 50 shades of gray or something He ended up reading it And kind of through that and then you know internet searches and stuff He was able to really turn his whole marriage around it's changed his whole life and for the positive And it's very much like you're talking about ellen Uh, it's a lot of it's very explicit. I don't know if they have the contract but You know, you see it's always, you know, grandpa's a flog and grandma or whatever Uh, which is I mean his wife's actually really hot like it's that's totally bullshit, but So much of the the problems that people have in relationship is due to a lack of clarity and understanding I mean, I'm gonna say communication, but I don't want that to be misconstrued When you have what what you're saying about bdsm relationships and how It's smooth sailing it because it clarifies the dynamics of the relationship Both parties really understand fully how they're supposed to show up in what the other one needs from it And you know, one of the things that text was talking about in his in his speech and at the 21 convention was that He it's it's a lot of responsibility for the guy and if the guy is not like you have to You you can't just be dominant and then act like a child and not take care of shit But you have to you have to like play that role And so I think it's a way to kind of cut through tons of the bullshit between Couples and when they get to that exact point In my experience when you have that clarity The relationship and you both are are fulfilling your roles. The relationship is is amazing. It's smooth sailing Beneath that I think fighting can be good because fighting is at least some degree of communication At least you're trying to engage with each other's The worst relationships I've seen are the ones where Neither party ever expresses anything that they want and they don't fight about it And they just have this like low level avoidance and resentment And I've I've talked to some guys.  Everyone hates everything and what tends to happen is at one point One of the parties something happens. The guy just maybe burns it all down leaves It's like a zombie marriage. Yeah, it's a zombie marriage. Exactly. That's why I think, you know They talk about the divorce rate being 50 and some of that's because you they count for second marriages and third marriages That skew that statistic But really I think that the failure rate of marriage is a lot different from the divorce rate I think it's a lot higher Because when people say when people use divorce as a metric for the failure of a marriage They're not accounting for the marriages that fail slowly that are dying that are that are really already dead There are like a zombie marriage. It's so I think the failure rate for marriage is probably really high It's probably like 70 80 percent But I do think there's a chunk that work really well and I think allen is on the track to doing that I think you're in that too pat You know, I we're still going to know each other, but I really like the things you tweet and write about and you speak about Your newsletter is one of the only ones I read Actually, thank you Yeah, I'll be back on camera in a second, but uh, it's funny what you said pat, uh I remember years ago when I lived in los angeles I responded to this ad for the discovery channel and um And they wanted to talk about sex They had about one third single people there and two thirds of people were coupled either married or unmarried couples and anyway They were interviewing this one older couple They were like in their, um Man to late 50s, but shit. I'm I'm in that age group now. So I'm one of those older people But anyway, here's what I found amazing they were interviewing this couple And the guy was married and he said It took him like 20 years To ask his wife for a blowjob Oh my god And I was just like sitting there mouth open eyebrows raised And the woman there was something I can't remember what her she had one desire And it's interesting because it's related to what what pat was saying how You know, you could you could have a couple and they both have wants and needs but they're scared to communicate them Yeah, this guy said he said he thought his wife would think bad of him If if he knew she he wanted his cock sucked And a woman said she thought he would look down on her if if if if she told him she wanted, you know abc xyz I was just like damn How can you be in a like a 30 year marriage and be scared to say shit? To your partner, but that that showed that they weren't alone Did they went on to say that a lot of couples go through that they'll be in you know 10 year 15 20 plus year marriage But be scared to communicate there wants and needs in a forthright manner Yeah And and that's one of the things, you know, like you said you said you're getting engaged you're engaged, right?  Look The stats are it's true about the stats, but you have to look at the individuals who are going into the situation There's you can't just take you Right Alan and compare yourself to some random guy who has no idea about any of this stuff Who has done no work on himself who has no awareness?  It's not how it works It's very disingenuine observation of stats is what it is.  What do you think? I am not aware of You're so blue pill man.  Yeah, I agree your chances of getting financially divorced or slim That's not zero.     I can't I can't learn how to make my outcomes different I'm and it's actually that's the same mindset that got them into the problem So it's probably right that those guys shouldn't get married Because they still have the same mindset that they are a victim of women That they probably had in their relationship And so as long as it's like yeah, your reality is true with your mindset if you change your mindset Then it's no longer true They don't they don't get that. It's like it's like too high level To understand like no, no, this is what's real my world. It's real Even with me they don't want to point to I have a pretty famous speech I put out about my experience with marriage and stuff and bad divorce I went through and all that whatever it has like almost half a million views And yet these guys don't want to they'll they'll watch it and they'll they'll share it We'll thumb it up, but they'll want to they don't want to mention that I as I detail on the speech I didn't get divorce raped. I lost zero dollars technically I've profited like tens of thousands of dollars Off of the divorce because I spoke about it Which generated ad revenue and people bought tickets to the convention because they found the speech powerful And they made him interested in the event and stuff like that So not even even in a case of a marriage falling apart You're not necessarily going to get divorce raped if you protected yourself If you were aware of how you know the world works to some degree How the court system works things like that I protected myself in my case See these guys a lot of it's very overblown. There's a lot of things you can do to protect yourself and it's not this And you know, I was saying too like I was talking about the divorce rates just a minute ago like we're talking about But there's some marriages that work really well I think they're a minority of the population by far, but there's still some that work really really well And people are really happy to be in them. I think Alan and both, you know, you pat You guys are good examples of that. I mean Alan's gonna be a father now There's a me a heir to the to the mode one empire. I saw some comments the guys are saying Yeah, that's awesome, man. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah Let's keep kind of going through this. So let's talk about progression I know that I learned how to pick up women approach women get phone numbers So there's a progression to my experience for example in the pickup community, you know start now You couldn't even approach learn how to approach learn how to get phone numbers back when phone numbers were a thing Now it's all instagram or whatever the fuck by tiktok now But eventually I learned how to bring women home in the same night, you know go on dates bring women home too that way But sex took a long time to figure out for me I learned how to you know get a girl in bed and banger long before actually learned how to banger How to experience not only how to banger but how to have a really good time myself How the whole you know everything that we're talking about here So what do you guys think about experience with sex?  How is important and you know, what does it mean? How is it going to play out for guys? I only have my own experience really go off of I haven't seen too much about this in the wider Manusphere guys talking about it.   I never get because my brother was Was with me because we had this friend. He he was interested because most guys let's put it real Most guys watch porn movies usually get aroused so they can masturbate But me and my brother had this friend. He liked to point out like goofy stuff in the porn movies Like to make fun of laugh at So that's why he was showing us these he shows like three different porn movies And he would point out scenes that he thought was funny But this one of them was called talk dirty to me. Anyway My brother saw me taking mental notes and he was like I remember infamously. He said bro Don't take notes on this movie that this is a porn film You could never get away with that in real life ever You get slapped. You get cursed out. You get drink thrown in your face Don't don't ever talk to a woman about sex in the first five to ten minutes of your very first conversation And I listened to him for about the next three years my first three years of college But then that turning point again the triple date story and who said again but anyway Once I saw first That I could get women Dripping wet just by talking to them without even like kissing them yet or touching on them yet That was a major light bulb on the head for me and so I would each a lot of women I would deal with I would I would try to see how far could go and today would absolutely stop me I would I would go beyond each of their sexual sensibilities.  Of course, they'd be like, oh my god I can't believe you're talking to me this way, but I could see in their face that they were getting turned on And like one thing I would look for is if that tongue became more active That's why if people look on the cover Of who said again, it's a woman with her tongue out into the left Yeah And uh, because women they do when when you talk dirty to them One thing said to this. Oh, I don't know if I would ever do that right if they said that they go It's like eye contact where the eyes go. There's there's some significance to this body language was Yeah, so um so I I don't have to say I didn't I didn't so much initially Concentrate us on like again like a lot of guys do I'm like, okay. I need to know how to master The doggy style position and I need to know how to master.  You're both happy But uh, I always like To bring outsides of women that they may not Either they didn't know were there Or they knew were there, but their social program always said no keep that under wraps keep that under wraps And that was my that was my thing like my brother once said one time Some women I knew were light-heartedly teasing me for being a sex addict I knew I wasn't but I threw it at my brother said Right, you think you think I'm a sex addict? He said no He said your desire is is no more than any other healthy american male He said but here's what I do think you have an addiction to he said you like meaning women Who are kind of carrying themselves as the innocent wholesome good girl? And you love to see if you can bring out their more kinky side their more Side You do have an addiction to that. It's a challenge Yeah Yeah, I've I've I know I know the feeling Uh, one of the things I wanted to mention too that's where we get padded on this on experience and progression getting better One of the things I found that should have mentioned at the start of this segment I've found for getting better for me Over the years, you know since 17 finding the pickup community becoming sexually active and all that Is becoming more impulsive and more expressive And I took that took a long time and sex for me separate from the mechanics which I kind of learned just through experience, you know intuitively over time But being impulsive and expressive were a lot more difficult and probably a lot of that's personal, you know trauma You know, whatever blue pill crap But I really think a lot of guys that benefit from that Maybe not everybody.  I saw girl's eyes just light up go wide Like a deer in headlights because she was she could see me tapping into that and she was like, fuck.  Yep. And that was one of the first times in my life that really happened Happened at that intensity in that that depth And then ran No, that's that's really good anthony and actually I think that one of the It's so interesting the progression about how this How this happens for guys, but to really get fully natural and authentic in the moment part of it can be even Not feeling the need to make That exact sexual exchange particularly kinky and dirty It's kind of whatever. What is the energy that you're feeling and what and what do you what do you want? What what is what is going on between the two you and that girl at the moment because sometimes it can be much more passionate Yeah, it can be much more, you know connected and well, dude, that's not alpha bro. You're just purple pill king. Shut up bro right, right and it's it's so interesting because Trying to force like some trying to force in a certain in a certain sexual exchange and it can of course be the same moment It just to be a different different day a different energy You you trying to make it like really really dirty and really really kinky.  Yep So been there myself.  Yeah. Yeah, maybe not too many but yeah It's it seems like the progression like my progression. I mean I I've had Tons and tons of terrible sexual experiences at times when I had some performance issues Uh, I just really didn't feel connected at all to the girl really in my head Um talking about a lot of the mechanical stuff that I talked, you know I talked about earlier like really fixating on that I mean I can I can speak to it because I've been there and I think it's it's useful actually as a coach, right? To be able to have gone through a life cycle to understand where where a guy's at but I've I think at the higher levels you start to get to a point where it's more about You realize it's not about addition so much as it is about elimination and That there were things that you learned. Maybe you were conditioned to have that earlier on affected your attitude and your mindset towards women and towards sex and it's really about Getting rid of that and becoming you know, what you guys just said about being in the moment And feeling like you can fully express yourself and and what you want and say what you want and Sure, there's an aspect of this that I guess is unconscious competence like you know, you learn how to maybe you maybe you learn how to the dirty talk You learn some nlp You learn, you know about the female anatomy And that stuff eventually becomes integrated and it's but I think it's it's You just have to be willing to I mean you have to be vulnerable to a certain extent I don't mean like share your feelings and everything but you have to like having sex with a girl and you don't have any experience There's a level of vulnerability to that to learn yeah, you have to learn and You know, if you try to hold back and try to make everything perfect, you're more likely to get stuck I think with being impulsive and expressive. I think for me anyway The experience has been like being vulnerable to my animal side.  They're gonna love it and they want it Yeah, you know, it's funny one of my first videos after I came on youtube I came on youtube regularly in april of 2017 and one of my first five videos was about Telling man to get in tune with your what I called your inner animal And I said that problem with a lot of you guys. You're not in tune with your inner animal Yep, and I said sexually you have to be you have to be you got to get in tune and also Pat said something that also emphasized my clients When I first usually when I first I work with them I say My coaching is not so much about Adding on stay 10 new beliefs 10 new attitudes But in many cases just the opposite And I think that that's what you were saying. He says it's not about addition Latins with latins about elimination. All right.  Does every guy have the potential to be really awesome in bed? Like a really great lover with woman I'll say yes or no. I think all guys have the potential to be a great lover for some woman For some woman But now that's to be distinguished from Do all guys had a potential say to be prolific womanizers? No, I've said on my channel many times and I've got a lot of pushback for say that but I'm like some of you guys are never going to be like this Prolific womanizer who sleeps with you know a thousand two thousand women in your life that that's not gonna happen That's a cold splash of truth. Jesus Yeah, I would I would say that Every guy can Certainly be a good lover. Are they going to be You know, there are there are some guys that are so naturally in tune with the energy it's kind of like a You know, we like like it's like you talk about talent in general Like anybody can learn how to be Like a good artist if they put the time in and if they they learn, you know, I don't want to I don't want to contradict. It's like it's a it's a different process You're learning skills more when you're learning how to paint versus eliminating things when it comes to sex but I do think that some people have Just such an a natural connection to it that They're like, you know a Casanova sort of like an like an elite level of Of this but every guy like you said Alan can be an excellent lover and can certainly be an excellent lover with Someone who they really feel connected with right? They can build it up within a within a relationship Um, but being able to go to like random girls and being able to bring that out of almost every girl That could be harder for a lot of guys and I don't and even let's just say if it is possible It's probably not a good ROI Yeah, guys because it's not It's it's not their natural inclination There's more to do in life. Yeah, I think kind of what you're saying too How I'm interpreting it is like everyone can become a great artist if they really want to get good at it But can everyone become a Picasso or something?  I think that some other people It's as beta as alpha, you know, what what does it mean to you guys? Well, I've been asked that question Uh From quite a few of my clients and patreon subscribers. I'll say ellen.   Yeah, you don't know who's been in there. Yeah, exactly.  Don't let no woman do that. But again, if if you in a relationship woman You know something about her her health or hygiene and whatnot and you genuinely want to do it I don't see any problem with it. Yeah, but it's impulsive.  Yeah, it's fun. No, I mean, I love it to be honest. I love it I'm never like, oh, can you go down on me? It's I've never heard that. I don't think I've ever heard that in my life Yeah Maybe maybe on some like one night stand that I can't recall but No, I mean, I I enjoy doing it.   Like no, I'm good So it just depends depends how I feel about it. I think that what we call that the the dine and dash Yeah, exactly exactly It's for my own gratification But I think that I think that what rib's doing is, you know, like I said earlier in the show, I think it's it's it's important for guys to I think a lot of beginners think like I need to learn how to how to go down there I need to learn how to be really good at at eating out a girl if I want to be good at sex and It's like totally irrelevant. It's totally. Yeah, it's it's a relevant It's it's a nice. It's a nice skill in your toolbox and I and I can say that I will say this that if you're a guy who has had Yeah, well exactly what Cole is saying here is kind of taking the word out of my mouth words out of my mouth for and for guys who have Maybe don't have as much sexual confidence There there is some power There is there is some power in being able to really make a girl come with your tongue And I have known some guys who maybe had some, you know issues With sex and that being really good at going down girls really kept them in the game but I I don't think it is I'm very cautious of recommending that As an approach to guys because it's it gets the orientation off. I think it's like a it's a weapon but it's not It's not the primary modus operandi that you want to be thinking about Yeah Yeah, I think someone can even use You know going down on her as a shit test like I think that's Alan was referring to that kind of bra beating I mean that would definitely be that's a power trip in that in that case I think almost every time if not every time power play Yeah, it's a trap like the star Wars meme. It's a trap So final question for you guys, what are some of the pitfalls guys should watch out for as they They go out into the world. They learn about women. They start having success with women They start getting, you know, if not automatically through experience a little bit better with the you know sex and stuff And obviously maybe over time this gets better through effort Or focus or whatever What are some pitfalls that we talked about here, you know the brow beating and going down on the girl and stuff What are some other pitfalls though?  It's like This is never going to end The pitfalls for the guys that they want to get better and they're learning Well, I would say that One of the things that I've seen happen to to guys is that they can get good at game. They can get good at hooking up with girls um and then And they can be really good at creating like a fantasy for a girl But that but they haven't done enough of the they haven't really gotten the essence of what it is to be a man They're still they got really good at the tactics and techniques And so they're getting good outcomes when they create this fantasy But if they then get serious with a girl What starts to happen is that Over a period of months usually three six months certainly a year or two years gradually their frame starts to diminish in the dynamic because They were really just they were still addicted to the girls validation But they were just getting good at they were just good at gaining at that point And they hadn't fundamentally broken themselves and created the belief that You know, I hate using this term because it's so Abused but you know that they're they're the prize right that they they are The valuable person in the dynamic and what you see happens is that these guys will they begin to relationship And then as the relationship starts to become depolarized and there's tons of fights and stuff like that Then they start to think like Oh, well, maybe it's it's a problem with this girl.  Do you really feel like you don't need her or you're like, oh, I want her over I got I got the girl I'm looking for now Yeah, um one of the things And I've been talking about this a lot on my channel as far as Problems and pitfalls guys run into what one is related to my presentation is simply Buying into the belief a lot of guys find and believe that women Are not as sexual as we are and that's I'm sorry.  I mean as I put it out in the presentation at the 21 convention 2018 man the female sex toy Industry is like a billion dollar industry You telling me that's happening because women aren't horny and secondly And this is a video I did on my channel that where I got a lot to see there's been this major division at least in some circles of the ministry about In relation to what I do and what I teach direct versus indirect and a lot of guys Believe you should lie to women and basically what's known as pumping dump Is what a lot of guys call pumping them where you give a woman the misleading impression You want a long term emotionally profound long lasting romantic relationship when actuality you just really want casual sex And you know some guys endorse the idea of deceiving women in this way I'm totally against that A lot of guys I feel like a lot of it comes from a lot of guys Think or assume mistakenly that a lot of these women are dealing with out here are stupid and clueless And they're not Particularly in this day and age in this me too movement era.  They've been through a lot of stuff They've seen a lot of stuff Maybe the artist is very intelligent.  That's I've been there Girl game girl game. Yeah, don't underestimate women.  Yep, and uh, she's dangerous, man Yeah, very plain. It's like playing with fire Yeah Well guys, it's been a very enjoyable conversation I think the guys will enjoy it on the you know, watching live appreciate you guys tune in live Everyone will watch us later as well.  Well, just uh, I'm gonna say thank you, anthony for having me Uh, this was this was a great discussion my first time interacting with uh pat Who seems to have a lot of great knowledge wisdom and insight and um Yeah, uh, thank you. Uh, all you guys in the chat room who took time out of your saturday morning To join us for this discussion. I really appreciate it and again, you can find me At direct approach dating as one word dot com direct approach dating guy dot com In my books and audio books can be found on amazon dot com Nice. Yeah, just uh same stuff. I mean, thank you guys for for tuning in on saturday. It was a It's been an amazing conversation Alan it's been I mean I'd love love to talk more with you about this stuff. But really it's I know that you're you've You've got a real real litany of experience and it shows and Uh, anthony thanks for for putting this thing together for us to really have a good I think there was a really good chemistry here. Yeah, oh it um So yeah, I appreciate it. You guys can find me at pat underscore stedman on twitter And also pat stedman dot com and if you want to get my uh daily ish Uh email newsletter that anthony was talking about earlier. It's just pat stedman dot com slash opt in And but if you follow me on twitter, you're gonna you're gonna get the links to that And for everyone else watching too appreciate again you guys tuning in thank both of you For being on the show today.  There's a couple previews out now His full speech will be on 21 studios pretty soon a couple days maybe a week And all their speeches are available at 21 university dot com you can watch them ad free Usually early by a few weeks with a free trial. So check it out at 21 university dot com That's it for today's show. This has been episode one of four of the red man group And i'll see you guys next saturday probably about 11 a.m.


Now that you've got Derek activated to start practicing what's the as you're watching this week what's the thought process on you know making that next decision? Well just to see how he responds and ask him to start doing you know some of those things that he's gonna need to do in the football game. I mean no different than what we've done with with any other guy that's you know come back from you know the injured reserve and as they start the return to play. At this point of the season what's the how challenging is it with what you're able to do on the practice field pad limitations and things like that as opposed to game rubs what is that how about how challenging is that balance for a player? I think would say depending on the position I think that that certainly is something that you'd have to look at maybe the position of that the player plays whether it's at the line of scrimmage you know receiver and so we'd have to just monitor those things and try to recreate what they're gonna be asked to do in the game as closely as we possibly can. I don't know I'm not gonna speak for his excitement I'm excited I can speak on my excitement to coach this football team to have a chance to go on the road and and do everything we can to try to win that that that's what I'll speak on.  You know I'm not sure what comfortably means but I think that you will try to do everything we can you know for the players that are coming back to to try to recreate to give them again the confidence and trust that they can you know go out there and do their job we try to do that you know with every player that's returning. When you're weighing all of this out as far as his return is concerned how much does the playing surface come into play whereas you know like field turf versus natural grass? I think there's a lot of factors that go into you know decisions that we make. Anything on the Texans? How much different are the Texans now from compared to when you saw them? Well there's a few players that have changed obviously the quarterbacks changed you know Burkhead Rex has been getting the bulk of the carries rely heavily on the skill set of cooks defense is fast and they create a lot of turnover so you know as we know firsthand. And his skill set what is it about it it seems like whoever regardless of what his quarterback is he's a thousand yard receiver. Yeah he's you know he just has the ability to you know I guess the skill set and the player always wins out no matter who's throwing to him or what team you know what helmet he's wearing you know plays you know he doesn't isn't a big big player but he's got speed and I think he's got really good play strength he does a great job of creating penalties down the field or catching those or those deep passes so you know it'll be critical that that we try to do everything we can to defend him. I was wondering if you had any response to the charge against Bud and what that could mean for him moving forward? You know obviously we're all aware of it we'll continue to monitor it and you know like always we we try to do everything we can to help our guys make great decisions on and off the field and you know that that's my response we'll continue to monitor it communicate with with Bud and you know see how everything will eventually play out. How big of a difference from the last game you now have Zach Cunningham on your side of the defense rather than on the other side of the field how with his growth and grasp of the defense so quickly how much of a difference can that make in this game? Well I don't I don't think that defensively you know we we we just turned them all over the last game you know Zach's going to try to do everything he can to help us whether that be left tackle on the punt team playing special teams or playing defense for us you know this is about you know where we are in our 17th game and about the things that we're trying to improve on and continue to to make our charge to play our best football down the stretch. How much has been kind of the glue that's held the offensive line this year? Well I don't I mean I think that since the time that Ben's you know coming to the league I think that's always been something that he's you know whether that was in Houston when I was around him or or here you know Ben loves football Ben loves you know his teammates he does whatever you know he can do to help the team and in a large part of that is is making sure that everybody up there is on the same page you know trying to execute whatever scheme that we're trying to do. You mentioned the challenge of you know we asked you about the challenge of dealing with Derrick's decision. Going in with a chance to get the one seed to buy what what factors do you think of you know Chiefs play the night before or the day before you'll kind of know what your status is when you kick off on Sunday. Do you think about trying to rest players or with a chance at a buy play starters longer? There's an awful lot of math. I think that winning takes care of everything that's that's the one thing that I've learned since you know you know I've been in sports or athletics is that winning usually takes care of everything. Do you know the unique or special message this week different from from other weeks? Winning takes care of everything. The turnovers in the last game this is something you've said the team emphasizes every week is at this point do you even need to say anything more about that? I probably don't but I do just to show them the difference the way that you know when you possess the football you know that you can turn drives into points and you know if we're not able to score touchdowns we can you know rely on Randy to give us some points and you know when you when you force turnovers defensively it creates short fields for the offense and and we're doing those in both of those phases we did that and the special teams created field position I thought we did a great job of that the other day as well which will we need to continue. I noticed you always kind of go out on the field and you know tend to them a little bit just kind of wondering you know sort of what what do you hope to deliver what kind of message do you hope to deliver to a guy that's heard out there and has that always been the case that you that you've done that? I mean we just we spent a lot of time with these guys I think that you know like I tell the team you know when I when I first got the opportunity to do this and be a coach or a head coach you know you want to try to make you know make it as close to a family atmosphere as you can which you know there's always issues within families there's arguments there's disagreements everybody's different we respect everybody's own personality but I think in the end you try to come together for a common goal and so we do spend a lot of time with these guys and you never like to see anybody injured you know so I think that's part of my job is to go out there and make sure that you know guys know that that we care about them other than just you know a pair of shoulder pads and a helmet. What's your expectation for Ryan is though coming in into the tight end remit this late juncture? The expectation is to do everything he can to be ready to play in a football game and when he blocks finish longer than the guy with the ball and when we throw it to him you know catch it. You got a lot of depth at that position what's the competition like what's the challenge in trying to find a role for all this guy? Yeah I think that there's gonna be a lot of decisions that that we'll have to make and that's a good thing you know there were there were weeks where we had had ruled seven players out and we were bringing guys from the practice squad to get healthy 48 guys to the roster so you know that that's not something that should come as a surprise to anybody we talked about that this morning you know in the squad meeting and you know their preparation how they practice and and really the roles that they can they can play for us on Sunday go into making those decisions. What's your assessment on how Jenkins has kind of turned things around it seemed like you know he's stacked some some pretty good games how would you assess his play like what he's put on film recently? Well I mean rabbit you know he was one of those performers you know he got it you know we recognized him with the with the game ball and it has been really good to see him challenge and and be productive and obviously we touched on the interception a couple weeks ago I felt he was you know very good technically the other day thought he tackled well when we asked him to tackle so a lot more that would be be great this week.


Eric, we're talking about sometimes we do market research conversations and we might feel some discomfort as they, you know, they said, well, I'm interested in consciousness. That's why I bought these books on this and then they kind of ended and that they don't say anything more. So how do we get them to say more and I really like what you just expressed so how do you do that. Well, I first of all is to notice that I'm feeling uncomfortable about making them feel more uncomfortable. Yeah. And then it's like, I just reveal that to them basically and say this, I'm feeling a little uncomfortable about pushing in this but I'm really actually interested in learning. Yeah. I shift myself also out of the discomfort into the curiosity. And then it's just like, go there. Because usually if I say, I've said this to be, you know, I hope this isn't making you uncomfortable but I'm really curious. No, no, no, it's okay. Then they unfold what's what's underneath that for them. Yeah. Really nice. I love that you're acknowledging the commonality of the of the experience right now and and that you are genuinely interested. I mean I think that's the other thing like you're you're expressing vulnerability you're really warmth and care to say the reason we're having this conversation is because I actually really want to help. I'm deeply interested in in what what you're interested in, you know, and, and, and also remember this is totally confidential. I'm never I'm never going to quote you. I'm never you know, but but tell me if you're willing to share what only your journal would see completely confidentially, I would be honored. So, you know, but thank you. Thank you for that.


Welcome to NewsClick. While Delhi burnt there was a toxic media war raging over between people with opposite views on social media and other media platforms. But the tragic outcome of that debate was it resulted in some entrepreneurs deciding to sack employees who held opinions which were critical of CAA, NRC and NPR. In fact one entrepreneur Barkha Trehan quite proudly in a message said that two Muslims employees have shared anti-CAA posts, I have fired them both with immediate effect. This received 50,000 likes and in fact many who wrote there took oaths that they would follow what Barkha had done and sack any employee who expressed any critical opinion of CAA. To discuss this in terms of not just employees rights in an age where employers can hire and fire anybody at drop of a hat but also the larger implication of our constitutional right to free speech. We have Paranjoy Guha Thakur da, my colleague in NewsClick. Welcome Paranjoy. Let me start by posing this simple question. Now it's true that Barkha Trehan sacked the two employees but as a result of that some of the comments were pretty interesting but two people took a more sober line. One was Harsh Gowinka of RPG who came out and said that this is unfair, that you can't sack anybody for their personal opinion and the other was the managing director of TVS Capital Mr. Gopal Srinivasan who said that it is illegal to fire employees for political views. Although he added that like religion, politics should also be a private matter. Paranjoy what do you have to say to this? You know Gautam as you rightly pointed out, the atmosphere prevailing in the country has been poisoned. This woman Barkha Trehan who incidentally describes herself as an activist, as a social activist who runs her own event management business and is associated with an organization called Save Indian Family Movement. But of course this movement later said we have nothing to do with her. But what is interesting is what she said, no matter Muslim or Hindu if you are against CAA stroke, NPR stroke, NRC I won't employ you in my company. Now not only did she get people who supported her, these social media warriors but what is also interesting is that there were people who actually came out and supported the employees and there was at least one person says I will employ you. But what this woman Barkha Trehan epitomizes is how a section of the population, urban, calls themselves elite, I would say the elite employers, how their minds have been completely poisoned. As a private employer it's your choice who you wish to hire or you don't wish to hire. But as you rightly pointed out, we have an article 191A in the Constitution of India which says the right to free expression is a fundamental right. You also have article 192 which imposes what are called reasonable restrictions on the right to free speech. Now the problem has always been how do you interpret what is reasonable or not. You know whether it deals with friendly relations with neighbors, but this stacking is manifestly arbitrary and illegal. But she would claim, she would claim, I'm just playing devil's advocate. She would say I am an employer. I decide who I employ or not. But as Mr. Harsh Gowankan, I'm happy at least he's spoken up and Mr. Srinivasan, this is a very very important point. The point is, has your personal views, what are there on politics, on a law in parliament? Has it affected your work as an employee? Or are you being sacked mainly or only because you hold a political view which is different to that of your employer? So I think it's a very fit case for these two employees to move the labour court and say that they have been unfairly removed and arbitrarily removed. And I think once you make it a test case, the point is a bigger issue and that the way the social media has been utilised to spread propaganda, hate speech and how such a large section of India has today come, become a part of that. I mean you have 90 crore voters and you have 40 crore users on WhatsApp. The reason I'm raising this question is that well, as far as the industrial relations act is concerned or industrial disputes act is concerned or other labour laws are concerned, I think it's very clear that you can't fire anybody without issuing them a notice and this would be, if it is challenged, it may fall. One is the legal aspects. And then we don't know what kind of employment they had. No, it looks manifestly illegal on the face of it because without notice and she has a self-explanation.  But the greater worry is that in an atmosphere where an employer has decided to be the champion of government's line of thinking, he or she feels that they are empowered to treat their employees any which way they like. So if they dislike their views that they express, they'll be sacked. Although their views have no, I mean anything expressed in their private domain ought not to concern anybody. But this person has decided that it is her concern. It is that which is rather worrying that the right of the employer seems to take away the rights which the constitution gives us for the employees. And every citizen and not just employees. I completely agree with you. What is of great concern is that this kind of behavior is now seen or perceived to be acceptable. It's one thing to say I'm an employer and it receives accolades. That's right. It's one thing to say I'm an employer. You're my employee. So, you know, I am the boss. I do what I want to. But more importantly, and what is particularly pernicious is the reason. It's that you, just because you're my employee and I'm your employer, I'm also dictating to you and implicitly that's the message. What you can think? What you can think? What should be your political views? What you should support? What you should oppose? Which is a terrible, terrible thing that is happening. We describe ourselves as a democracy. We describe ourselves, India as the world's largest democracy. We have these provisions in the constitution. I mean, these are fundamental rights. These are basic foundational rights on every citizen. Now, if this is happening, if this is the level of intolerance among people who are supposed to be a part of the elite, can you imagine how less privileged people are today suffering? I mean, today what we have seen in Delhi, in the national capital, terrible. I mean, as an Indian, I'm ashamed to say that I am here. I live in this national capital where over 40 people have been brutally murdered and this number may very well go up. For only one reason, they have a particular, I mean, they subscribe to a particular religious faith. And I think this has really, I mean, we have to understand why there's so much agitation, not just among the Muslims. Because this whole Citizenship Amendment Act, this whole national register of citizens and the national population register, it struck a chord in young people and among the minorities that they've reached a stage where they're not willing to take any more of this. What I would describe as fascist kind of, the state acting in a fascist manner. But what about the corporates now? Yes. Now they believe the corporates are now believing that we should be coutoing before the government.  And I'll tell you why. Because this government, more than others, it's not that previous governments didn't, they have used law enforcing agencies to target those who disagree with them, including industrialists, whether it be the income tax department, whether it be the central bureau of investigation, whether it be the enforcement director. But they can't take the wrought out on employees because they disagree with them. Absolutely.  The shrinking. The reflection of the times. The intolerance that has pervaded large sections of Indian society. And how people who consider themselves to be, you know, a part of the privileged section, how even their minds have become poisoned. Narrow minded here. Poisoned. Thank you Paranjoy. That's all for today. Keep watching NewsClick.


Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. You can call Ram's GM a lot of things. You can call him crazy. You can call him wild. You can call him just something off of another planet, but one thing you can never call him is not aggressive. This dude, if he wants somebody, if he wants to make a move, if he wants to make a trade, he will do it by any means necessary, as we see with this trade too, and we've seen it in the past as well, but he will do it by any means necessary. So there has been a lot of speculation and talk about all these different quarterbacks from these different teams getting ready to be gone. So, but I did not see this one happening. So let's look at the trade details. So Detroit is sending Matthew Stafford to the Rams in exchange for, so that's all they're sending. That's all the Lions are sending. Matt Stafford, that's it. All right, Rams, you take Matt Stafford and y'all give us everything. Give us everything. So the Lions are sending Matt Stafford to the Rams in exchange for two first round picks, two future first round picks, two of them for 2022 and 2023, because they already don't have a pick from this year, because they had a first round pick since Jared Gulf. But the Rams are sending two future first round picks and a third round pick and Jared Gulf. Like, what? See, the thing that I really don't get about this trade from the Rams side, from the Lions, it's like, oh, of course. If you're gonna give us all that, yes. Especially for somebody that they've already come out and said, when teams come out and say publicly that we're gonna be going in a different direction from this player, that means that, hey, put your best offer up. But at the same time, when they do that, that sort of lessens the value of that particular player. Because usually when teams have to tug a player away from you, then they'll be willing to offer more. But if they know that you're getting ready to let a player go, or that you're trying to get rid of this player, then they may offer less. But the Rams said, oh no, we're gonna send everything. And that part I don't understand. Because you're giving up the house, you're giving up the farm for one Matthew Stafford. And Matthew Stafford is not a bad quarterback at all. He is not a bad quarterback at all. Is he the greatest, no? Does he have his deficiencies? Yeah. But he's just, he's been in a bad situation for a long time. Now, not all of it is the organization's fault. Now, Matthew Stafford done had his little hiccups here and there too now. And this puts him in a much better situation. Because now, Matthew Stafford has had plenty of weapons over the years. Of course, his best weapon that he ever had was Calvin Johnson. That dude was insane. But he's had guys like Gala Day. I think he had who, Tate. And there's been more too. But with Matt Stafford now, he's gonna be moving to a situation where he'll still have some good weapons. He'll have Cooper Cup. He'll have Robert Woods. I think Everett they're tight and I think he's a free agent.  But he'll have some, he'll have two good receivers. That's a nice one, two punch right there already. And then of course, you got the draft or what's left of the draft for the Rams. As you know, now what, they probably got like three picks left. But now he'll have a defense that can help him out so much. So Matt Stafford's situation upgraded by far. Upgraded by far.  Guys that will really have his back. And if he can just put up, put up 25 points a game. If he can average about 25 points a game, 30 will be even better. That defense will put you in a great position to win. Vice versa. And the offense will put the defense in a good position too. So with the Rams wanting Matthew Stafford, no problem with that. Cool. But for everything that they gave up, I just, I can't mess with that. I think that that was a bad move. I really do.  I think it ain't been too long. They just signed him to a big, it's like the Rams and their Super Bowl team from a couple of years ago, looks much different. Looks much different. Of course they did add a Jalen Ramsey. She's nice. And but now golf is going. Of course, Gurley, he's gone. It's like with the Rams, I wish for the Rams' sake. Well, I think what they need to do, whenever they're about to pay somebody a big contract, they need to just put it on pause because more than likely, they're probably going to end up regretting it. Now with Jalen Ramsey, it's not going to happen there. They ain't going to regret that one. But with everybody besides Jalen Ramsey and Aaron Donald too, before they paid him the big money on offense, on offense, well, they did just sign Robert Woods to a contract extension too. So maybe not for everybody, but I think Rams need to really start thinking through the contract process, the contract extension process because they just paid Jared golf all that money. Then all of now, he's gone. That's it, he's gone. And they had paid Todd Gurley all that money, gone. But the thing, I haven't confirmed it yet. I haven't seen it yet. So I'm not sure how true it is or not, but you got to think that with the Lions taking on Jared golf and the Rams giving up all those picks who first rounders and the third, you got to think that the Lions are eating some of that salary cap. They got, there's no way. They gotta be, they gotta be. And who do Lions have on big contracts anyway? Like no, Lions, they got to have a good amount of cap space, they got to. But you got to think they got to be taking on some of Jared golf's salary cap and alleviating that from the Rams. Because that's even still, even if they are taking that on, it still doesn't make this trade make sense to me. Just the first round picks part. The quarterback swap, okay, cool, whatever. But the tooth, sorry man, my apologies y'all. I just, that bothers me so much. That bothers me. And I just don't think that was the wisest move but it is what it is. Again, like I said, Rams GM, I believe were less neat. Super aggressive, super aggressive. But I think in this case it was a bit much. A little over aggressive, overly aggressive.  You know what he can do. And now you've put him in a much better environment, much better situation. Now you get the bright lights in LA. Goes from Detroit to LA. Good for him. But Jared golf gotta be looking around like, man, just a couple of years removed from a Super Bowl and then boom, traded. This is why the NFL stands for not for long. Stands for not for long because things can change in a heartbeat. Things can change like that, like that. And nowadays it does not matter.  Just because this guy counts this much on the salary cap for this year, he's untouchable. No, no. Dudes is getting flip flopped more now than ever. Even in a big contract, it does not matter anymore. NFL, it is, what have you done for me lately league? What have you done for me? If you haven't delivered last year, you can be, if you haven't been delivering for the past two years, you could be on up out of here. So it's a tough, tough business. So anyway, just like Matthew Stafford with the Lions and Jared Kauff with the Rams, I'm out. Woo, this, I don't know, that's just, oh, this is crazy.