the podcast like this. Check it, check it, check it. This is Unicode, this is your boy ECO and I'm here with the lovely, amazing official Miss Jamaica. What's going on?  But I want y'all to make sure, I gotta say this, y'all need to like, subscribe, share us on all social media platforms, including Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Snapchat, TikTok, you name it. And we're a boss talk podcast one on one on all platforms. Then also, let me tell you the most important thing, if you don't hear nothing else, you're gonna hear this one. Patreon channel, that's where you need to go to see our full length interviews after a while. I haven't put a date on it, but it's coming up real, real soon. So if you wanna see these full length interviews, you gotta go ahead and sign up for our membership packages. See you there.  We've been running around over on Times Square. We was in Brooklyn, you know, paying homage to a big year was this 26 year, it's been 26 years since he passed here in New York. So we came up to celebrate his life, you know what I'm saying? But in the process of celebrating his life, I had to tap in with some real ones that I've been knowing, man, for going on 20 years, like these guys that I know, people be trying to understand the relationships that I have built through this channel. Well, I'm old, but at the end of the day, I got some real stumped down players, man, that I rock with, been rocking with. It has nothing to do, it was before Boss Talk 101. These are people, way before Boss Talk 101, but I got so much love in each city I go to because you got to give love in order to get love, man.  Y'all know him, y'all seen him, man.  How you doing, man? Man, simple is like this, we live in a social media age, and not that I'm competing against another guy, but at my age, in the late 30s and your late 30s, early 40s, if this was the 1980s or 90s, you could have a dad bod. You can't be 38, 39, 40 with a dad bod no more. These women ain't hearing that. Man, man. Am I lying? Am I lying? Yes and no. They know yes and no. So like I said, you, these ladies are not, unless they are in a substantial relationship with a man over a certain amount of time, they're not, you can't walk up to an old woman with your cameo missing in the top and a belly. That's why you, this is why you see men, though, do all these surgeries.  We gonna get into that too. No, but I hate when people, and this goes for any topic. Go ahead. When people say, oh, black folks or women or men. Oh, I know what she going with this. Not all women, not all men. This is a wild, wild world. You understand what I mean? Be more specific. Say, okay, say women in Texas or say women in such and such, or women you have encountered. Say those words. Don't, don't, don't just label women or men or black folks or white folks. Okay, so this is my retort to that because you, like most, I know you're gonna hate this. Like most women hate generalities, but the world you live in is based off generalities. When you vote, it is called a what? A poll. Okay. So they're measuring the bell curve. What's inside the bell curve? The majority of the numbers, right? For example. The numbers of the people who vote. So for example, if you took a number of every person that one leg was three inches shorter than the other, they will be at the tips of the bell curve. So that's called sample negligible. It is not even a big sample size enough to affect the majority. So if we're naturally, I'm not saying all, intelligentsia or anyone that's educated understand you don't speak in absolutes, but you can speak in generalities because at the end of the day, if I walked into a room of 10 women and I wasn't what society today deems, even let me, I'm not even gonna say attractive, appealing. Yo, it's a cold day. It's a cold day in question. The reason why I say that, the reason why I say that because I always, when I normally speak, I always say, this is my opinion. Or I always say, well, this is my experience with whatever I've been through with whatever, so forth. Because I realize, yes, the world runs on generality, but just like when you talk about voting in a poll, when you look at how many people vote compared to, and they're only taking a poll up according to who vote, when you look at how many people vote compared to how many people in the world, you can't really still generalize it according to what, because a lot of people do not vote. 100%, but once again, we're talking about generalities is what our Western world runs off of, but once again, you're not speaking in absolute. Miss, okay, how many women, how many women do screen printing, videography, cook for her kids, work at a store, come home? I'm sure there are other women out there other than myself who do it. I'm sure there are, I don't know them, but let me tell you. One thing I refuse, one thing I want, no, no, no, no. I see what you're getting at, but the way how I am, I always tell people all the time, it's good when people think that you're one and only, I'm like, but there's no, no, there's other people out there who might be just like you. So how many of you think so? There you go, sample negligible. All right, let me step in, you know. Hold on, but we're gonna go back to the essence. I wanna make sure we get back to the basis of what we do here, man, hey, man, first of all, man, thank you for coming on Boss Talk 101, stirring it up. Listen, thank you for having me, but we're gonna go back to the essence because we're gonna start this conversation the way we started the first one. He asked me about my glasses way before it was cool. So I'm giving him glasses that matches him. His actual outfit.  Hold on, let me get him on, look at him. Mama Scott, this happening all over the world, baby. This boy that brought me these shades in here, man. Now what exactly is these? Cause I know I got something on. That's the Dita Mock Fly Blue Flash. I think those were like 16. Dita Mock. Dita Mock Fly Blue Flash, that was 1600 retail. Mama Scott, 1600 up here in New Jersey, man. Everywhere I go, they bless me, man. And I'm gonna be honest with you, man. I feel real player right now. You know what I'm saying? I done got real fly, my guys in the building. I told y'all, man, when I move, I move with precision, man. Say, man, listen, man, thank you so much, brother. You know what I'm saying? For putting me on that level. Of course, man, of course. Man, I just wanna say, man, ever since me and you, man, locked in, man, it's been a journey, man, like from all the way back to the convertible birthday. But I wanna give it to Ms. Jamaica cause she always starts it up. Listen, really, let's find out who this is. Go ahead, Ms. Jamaica. Yes, because I like to know you as a person. Yes, man. I've met you. Yes, man. And we know you as a business and so forth. And we know a little bit, but I wanna dig down deep down. Okay. Born and raised. Born and raised. Patterson, New Jersey. Okay. I was born 80s baby. 80s baby. Mom and dad was together from the time I came out the womb, had two older sisters. So you're our only boy? I'm the only boy. So spoiled brat. Never. Cause I had two older sisters. So that can be... Yeah, y'all ladies gotta have y'all way. So I had two.  Let me show you how it was, right? A mama's boy. No, I wasn't. But let me show you how it was. For some reason, I like girls at a very young age, right? So... How young? I'm about to get into it, right? So I'm like three, four years old. Okay. My oldest sister is nine years older than me. My second oldest sister is six. And my mom owns, my mom and dad own a three-family house. So on the second floor, they rented, my mom rented out to her younger sister who had a daughter, Keisha. So Keisha, Tasha, who's my sister, and Benita, who's my sister, used to jump rope in the front, right? Okay. So I'm a little kid sitting on the steps, looking at these Puerto Rican girls next door jump rope. And you know, when you jump double dutch, women's... Yeah, yeah. I'm just like... And you know what they used to do to me? What's that? They used to deliberately wait until like my father would come home from work and Keisha. We're like, Uncle, dude, Andre over here cursing.  I wasn't cursing. I was just looking at the women jump rope, but they didn't want me to be around all those girls. But they didn't realize I'm sitting there drooling. And what's funny is, at that time, we can't say this now, so I'm going to be very politically correct. But you know, at that time, if you wanted to hang around girls as a little boy, you would call the specific, you know what I'm saying? Connotation and denotation, right? So Keisha used to be like, Andre, cursing, Uncle, dude. And we'd get on here, boy. And I couldn't watch them jump double dutch, right? I used to like, girl, yo, I can tell you every crush I had on a girl from preschool to like my last day of high school. That's how much I liked girls. I was like three or four years old. Like... How old were you when you had your first girlfriend? 17. Listen, I was just...  Why you waited that long to get your first girlfriend? I'm about to... Can I go to the ocean on it? So since we were talking about generalities, right?  Oh, okay. So when you're a nerd, right? Generalities show that in preschool, in grammar school, in high school, I couldn't get a girl to go... Or wear the army, right? Because no one wants to be with the nerd, right? And I'm gonna get into this later, because one of my favorite books, which I won't name, teaches men about that. It teach men how women... Why you won't name the book? Because certain... Because to be honest with you, Ms. Jamaica, and you know this, not all information is for everybody. People can pervert it and use it for not... They don't... They'll use it for manipulation and not for power. It's two different things. But it's a public book and it's out there, right? Yeah, but I ain't gonna tell nobody the name of it. Okay, it's your choice. So the point I'm making is, in this book, it teaches you that women have types. And within types, there's archetypes. So for example, if you look at... And I'll tell you this, and I'm sure you know this, right? If you look at television, right? You had certain types and archetypes that women went for on these shows. Fonzie couldn't read, but he wrote a motorcycle and had a leather jacket. And what would happen as soon as he entered the diner? Hey, hey, women went crazy, right? Shaft was a officer detective shooting people, locking people up, and then at the end of each scene, we'll go home and make love to two women, right? Okay. Erkel was sitting in Laura's window playing a ukulele singing. Fall out the window, break his neck, and she be like, close the window. As soon as she turned the stuff on Erkel, the same person, what happened? She chasing him, she chasing him.  You know, so that's what happened. So I have a question for you. And I have an answer, go ahead. So, you say ladies this and that and so forth? I do say that, yes ma'am. Aren't men the same way? As far as what? Have a type?  No, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me, let me, let me, let me, let me fix that.  Have a type for two different things. Have a type that they will settle down and be married to. That's the girl that they want to have a relationship with.   That's gonna be most men. So you have the two different kinds. Yeah.  But for the settling down type, they get more specific. Okay. Is that correct? How can I get you, listen, I'm gonna be honest with you. If you could buy vagina at your local supermarket, most men wouldn't even be married to a relationship. They don't want to deal with the headaches. That's just the truth.  He ain't gotta go there, he'll marry. So, I can say, listen, I'm not gonna go there because I already know, you know, I'm friends with Dre, and Dre been through a lot of different things with a lot of different women. And I'll get in that too, bro. You know what I'm saying? But we ain't there yet, but I'm just saying, it's things that make people say certain things. Exactly, I was gonna get into that too because there's a reason why this, the way how he is right now, I'm not talking. Mr.  Or traumas that we've been through. But, traumatization, but. Yes, it is, cause some people come from great households, or whatever. Yeah, that's true. I came from a great household.  Let's get into that, though, listen, hold on. You weren't, you didn't come from a great household. Mom and dad still together today. Me and my mother, as you know, when I had to step away from fashion, I changed my father diaper with my mother.  So, but this is my point.  They have fallen out of society. Hold on, I thought it just came back to my head. Go ahead, please. So, cause I'm still going back into the past. Go ahead, man, we here. First time you had a girlfriend at 17? At 17. How old were you when you had sex for the first time? 17. So you didn't even, nothing before that? Listen, I told you, it was, women was not checking for me. You said women were not checking for you, but I always say there's always somebody out here for. That every part got a top thing is, there is, I promise you. No, but you see, hold on, hold on, the reason why I'm saying that, just like how, okay, example, the, you were, no, hold on, when you were younger, you said you were a chubby, nerdy kid. Yes, ma'am. Still am a nerdy. Who was probably looking at the girls, the Puerto Rican girls, and all that. No, I was looking at every woman. All the girls. Yes, ma'am. Were you looking at the fine girls, or you were just looking at every girl? If you meet a person on the street who hasn't eaten, will he look at the bologna sandwich, just like he look at the steak he hasn't eaten? So I was looking at every woman. You didn't care. I didn't care. Men don't care. But none of those women, no matter size, looks, anything was just not looking your way. They wasn't looking my way. You know what's funny? I told E about this too. I told you one time, you don't remember. But I remember one of the funniest things I deal with to this day, right? I used to be so religious, right? I used to be in the Bible, right? And I used to go up in the church? Yeah, I did. I used to wait to go to Sunday school to answer every question. And I'll forget, the men and the women that were my peers, slightly older, slightly younger, used to chastise me for knowing the Bible. And do you know most of them are now ministers? It boggles my mind. Like, I'll just be like, yo, I couldn't win. So I always tell people, when I was fat, skinny was in. When I was skinny, fat was in. When I had waves, everybody had braids. When I swear to the braids, everybody had waves. It was just, that's how I'd be sometime. And that's fine. That's fine, you know? But honestly, I woulda looked, I woulda took on Esther when I was in high school. Man, I just, you know, just being one that really have really, I wanna say thank you for all the times when I picked up the phone and called you. I always am. We used to talk three, four in the morning. We'd talk three, four in the morning, whatever. But the thing is, you always had something that you would share with me, whether it was clothing or whatever, man. It gave me, you know, drive and push me. I've been in the business for right at 20 years, but it was people like you that God put in my life that helped me to understand, you know, where I was going. And I don't know if you realize that, but a lot of times the phone calls, man. Man, I appreciate it, man. I would kill me going, bro. You know what I'm saying? And there's a saying amongst me and a couple of my friends, and I always say, man, strong men make stronger men. If I'm here, you know me, I don't ask for nothing. So if I'm here to help you in any way, listen, if it comes back, I don't believe in anything. So I don't believe in karma, I don't believe in that. But I do believe that, listen, if I can help, because the difference between us and every other ethnicity and nationality is that they practice nepotism and we don't. Yeah. You know? So for me, even in where I was at at the moment, a lot of people didn't know what I was going through. I had lost my hair because of what I was doing with my dad. Yeah. And I would tell people during that pandemic, one day I looked in the mirror and I was like, yo, my hair coming back. Wow. And I said, oh, they should have never let me back. Right? Because it was just like, I became a different person. And listen, I done been everywhere from Frisco to Maine, all the way to Spain, from the Big Apple to the Pineapple. You know what I'm saying? Been everywhere but the electric chair. So no one, when we had these talks, remember you used to put me on the phone with people. Nice to go. I would always put you on the phone because you would slice them. But the reason I would do that is because a lot of times A, they was trying to understand business. Right. Or B, they was trying to understand a pair of, you know, different things about a pair of. We used to, you used to put them on the phone and talk to me about God and all that. About God, but whatever. But the thing is, you would always go there. You know, you speak multiple languages. I used to be yo. I used to be yo. You're very diverse and culturalistic, you know, differences in different nationalities. And those things were things that I was like, man, that's dope that you done been to all these different countries, venturing into all these different business moves. And you worked here in New York. And you've done some crazy stuff with the pearl business.  Yeah, listen, I was lucky. I was lucky and I was very unlucky at the same time. You know, now I'm a little bit different to where I have just one general focus really is which is just get to the money. And I have a number in my head. If I can reach that at the end of the year, I'm good. Like I'm really gonna make a decision. Do I even wanna live in the United States any longer?  I wanna talk about just the first challenges we face, man. Coming to the cop show when we first linked up. It was always about the glasses.  That's why I didn't put the glasses on. We having our first conversation. Listen, man, listen, man, listen. Y'all don't understand. When we first met, we was, this is what brought us together. We was fly, we was doing our glasses thing. We were wearing our shades. And you know, the thing was, I just look at the way, the way me and you done grown throughout the years. But let's talk about how you first got into the apparel business. Oh, that's good. Listen, so, listen. So I was, we're gonna revert back. It was 1993. Okay. Right? So anybody who knows me knows that I was a sports fanatic. Okay.  So what happened was, I started to get into clothes in 93. Okay. It was 94, right? So now what was people starting to venture into sports apparel? So this is when the fat five became popular. Chris Weber. But Dapper Dan was still doing his, but you know, that's crack error. I'm a little baby at that time. Exactly. That's crack error. So 94. So what year did he started when all that was transpired with him? According to my former business partner, the one I told right before we went on camera, his name, I ain't gonna say his name on camera, but he told me like 78 until 1988. It was like 78 until about right, right after Mike Tyson lost to Buster Douglas, which was like 91, 90, something like that. That's when Dapper Dan was like rocking. So you came right after that. I came into 94, right? Now, Pete this. And what year did you lose your weight? I lost weight in the summer of 97. I went through quick story. I got weighed by the school nurse the last semester of high school of my sophomore year. I'll never forget it. She was like 242 pounds, five foot nine. I was like, what? Wow. So from May, cause that was May, so May, June. So it was like a three week period. I went to my aunt, my mother, older sister. She used to make cabbage and I love cabbage. And I kept hearing about this cabbage diet, right? So I said, yo, just I ate cabbage for three straight weeks. And I think I lost about 15 pounds, right? So I was probably about 220. And I was sad. I ain't gonna, I don't believe in, I ain't gonna say that because I know people suit up, but I didn't, I was in a, what you would call a depression, right? And I told my mother, I want to go to granddaddy house in North Carolina. So my grandfather lived in a very small town on the outskirts of a husky, it's called Rich Square. It probably got one traffic light, a mule and a, I know that's right, welcome to Tix, that's how we do it. So I went down there, right?  You have to fly into Virginia Beach and drive two hours into Rich Square. So I didn't eat that whole day. I'll never forget it. Went to the airport, flew, landed Virginia Beach. Not as long flights, well hour, 15 minutes. And then my grandfather and his guy named Reverend Willie, somebody, I think it's Reverend Willie, pick me up, right? So we in the car, boom, hungry, didn't eat, right? Getting to his house, starving. And he used to have a caretaker because my grandfather had a tree that fell on his lower lumbar. So he wasn't walking the same, but now at this point he's fully caned and walking, right? Okay. So I said, Sarah, Miss Sarah, I'm hungry. So she was like, she just kind of like ignored me. And my grandfather said, you hungry? That's how he talked real husky voice. You hungry? I'm like, yeah, look at the pot over there. I opened up that pot, it was a squirrel. And that's what I knew. I was gonna lose a lot of weight. That's what I thought. I knew I was gonna lose a lot of weight that summer. And I did. Wow. But get back into Dapper Dan's story.  So I just wanna go back into it to where I wanna basically point out the fact of how we had passed Dapper Dan and then you were coming. Right, it was 94. It was 94, right? So coming into your, you're getting into it. So let me paint that picture.  You had Chris Webber, Jalen Rose. So they were like our trendsetters because we never seen sports like that. Baggy shorts, black sneakers. They were brash, they brought bald heads. This one, the bald head look was in. I did all of that, right? To the point where, so I wanted jerseys. I said, I'm gonna be different. And I'll never forget Gornik. Now I was chubby, Gornik, grammar school with tight jerseys on. Not supposed to wear them because I was out of shape, right? And I started buying sneakers. I remember I used to, so my mother said just like this, I'll never forget it.  My mother took in her youngest brother's son from Arkansas. She was like, I'm not buying both of y'all that stuff. She said, you better figure out how to get that stuff. Not here. So I stopped eating school lunch, saved that money, and I started doing kids homework, took all that bread, and then started to basically buy all this stuff. And that's how I got into it. So by the time I became a freshman in high school, and this is, you know, I'm glad you asked me that. I was wearing brands that nobody was wearing. I was just a nerd, so I wasn't considered cool. But you know, it was crazy. My freshman in sophomore year, when I was wearing those brands, I didn't even, it took to my junior year to see all of them wear it. And then I was like, I thought, y'all was laughing at me when I wore a fooboo. When nobody had fooboo. Wow. Y'all laughed at me when I wore a triple-five soul. Y'all laughed at me when I wore Echo. This one, Echo was like, they were laughing at me. I remember when I first wore a fooboo, there's like fat, universal black, they used to just make up a different acronym every day to pick on me, right? So what happened was it was a store in my hometown of Patterson in Carlos Shoe's. So you had two brothers, Carlos Jr. and you have Rolando Calzada. And I used to always talk to Rolando. And I used to say, bro, if you just give me a chance, man, I know I can, like, now I'm on you 16 years old. And he's like, eh, he's the, and then one day he said, yo, young blood, come here. Yo, I'm gonna give you a shot. I'm gonna have you work in my store. And then within a year, not even a year, six months of being in his store. I said, yo, this is 98, right? I said, don't pay me for three weeks. I said, send me to Vegas with you for the magic. Now, you know, 98, this one magic was magic, right? He was like, I never heard someone say that to me.   I said, yo, boom, three weeks. What year was that again? 98. 98. 98. So, yo, I was, I'll never get my first one, right? So, Nigel, I'm 17 years old, writing orders for Nietzsche, Pele Pele, a mecca USA.  So he was like, I was like, yo, you know, send me and yo, from then, and let me tell you, I can say this now. So I always had like this, you know, how my voice is a little heavy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was 16, 17 years old, dating these 30 year old sales reps. They didn't even know my real age, man. I used to, listen, I was like a kid in the candy store. Cause like I told Miss Jamaica, I didn't get, I couldn't get a girl up until that age, right? So once I got into the game. So when you got into the game, you were not faithful because you said girls after girls after girls. So you didn't stick with that first girl for very long? I was a man of the Lord. I just took, I was King Solomon. I just went and tried to get every woman I could. Wow. Yeah, because you were hurt for all of them years that you couldn't get one. No, I remember, let me tell you how silly I was. I literally used to pray to God and said, if you can just, I used to pray at night like, like I used to see the picture. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, could you? So when I finally got into the game, you couldn't tell me nothing. But why would you do that? Why wouldn't you? Because I'm a man. I was full of testosterone when I was young. So you're telling me young men cannot be faithful and stick to one girl and have a girl? 100.982%. Yes. I don't agree with that. Listen, I'm gonna do a show. If y'all here on Sunday, if y'all don't leave, I want y'all to join the show. I will, especially you, Mr. Maker. I'm gonna do a show called, Access Breeds Access. What's the name of your show too? Let's listen to this. It's called The Relationships Debates and Dialogue Podcasts. Me and my man, DJ Obsession. We just be busy. Like, he's working on a show right now for network television. So there's been times where we had gaps between our show. And sometime I would do this thing called Andre at the Dark where I would get all of my friends and we would talk about different relationship-type dynamics. Like, I did one where we did dating in the church versus dating in the streets, right? I did one, how much money should a man have before he dates for a commitment? Wow. I did, my favorite one that I did, which is just recently, is She Don't Care Part 1 or 2. I'm teaching men. Yeah, you sound like you would love that. I'm teaching men, stop trying to impress these women. Get yourself straight. And like I always tell people, when I wake up every morning, it's one rule, richer, wiser, stronger. How can I get physically in better shape? How can I get mentally sharper? And how can I get some more money? I call that the female inflation package. I agree. Okay. I agree with the fact that each individual, man or woman, need to get themselves straight. Because the reason why I said that, man or woman, because just like how you say, you were telling men this, I was also telling females that, whereas you get yourself straight because in order for you to get yourself straight and know how to love yourself, then you know how to treat a man, you know exactly what you want.  Hopefully it goes higher. 100%. You know what I mean? So that's what I said for that moment in time. But you need to first, especially if you went through trauma when you were younger, different things. Maybe you saw your mom never kept a man and different men come in and out of the house or you were raped or molested or whatever and you bring in as much as you're searching for love, that's the reason why you end up in all these different relationships. You first have to heal yourself because you can't find healing through anybody else. You have to in your mind make that up for yourself. I will give you this. Me being a man of the Lord and talking to a certain amount of women, I do give you this. It is a lot, it is hard for women that has been abused early to recover. It's super hard. But not impossible. No one said impossible. But it's hard. I want to give back a whole subject. I'm not for the men's retail. No, I want to hear about your, I want to go back to- Okay, so get back to that. I want to get back to when you get to magic. So we got to magic, right? And I could tell you, let me show you how deep I go. So I remember you have a Nietzsche. So Nietzsche was Adam, Lando, Eric Walker, Tony Sheldman and Evan. The reason why I'm giving you these names, I'm showing you how it branches out into other brands, right? You have Mecca USA. And at the time Mecca was, it was Tony Magnetic. It was what you call to, I forget, he just, Pobon, Philip Pobon who unfortunately just left us, I think about a year ago. A little bit over a year ago. And you had, who is now one to consider one of the grandmasters, which was Don Juan and his brother Emmett, right?  And then they branched off after that and then they did academics. This is where you get academics from, right? Which eventually gave you PRPS, right? So then you look at, so what's another brand? Cause like, if you look at the names I gave you from a Nietzsche, if you take Evan out of there and Tony is what gave you parish, right? So, and I think Eric for a little bit too, maybe, maybe not. So when you look at academics, you got Dante Allen, Scott Sasso, Scott gives you 10 deep as Dante gave you what gave me my first shot in manufacturing with him and Jameep, which was Gill Yard. And then Gill Yard gave you Omar, even though they had other brands, Omar and Dennis, Omar having a store in Virginia called Seaman Wealth, which he was at that time partners with a rapper, I won't name cause he probably don't want me to say that. And then you have Dennis who owned Crooks and Casters. Yeah, you see how all that brand start from that? So that's just a little like synopsis of like how, yo, I was, this was before I was into design, right? I was such fans of all of them. I could tell you like my man, Dante will have to watch certain movies to get inspired. I'm not gonna say what type of movies then. I remember my man Dennis used to be like, he's always have to, he used to always design with his shoes off with his feet like that, like cross toe. Everybody's different. Right. And then my man Alan will always be sketching Simpson characters. And they didn't realize like I was just soaking all of that in, right? I just love that, right? And then after that things happened, Gill Yard was successful, but it lost it's certain things happen within that company. And then I was in limbo and that's when I met D-Map in Vegas. And when he was designing 8732. And let's stop there, I wanna talk about that. 8732, D-Map, this was something that I put on a pinnacle when I started to tell people about D-Map because I felt like that was a big accomplishment. So he was doing 8732 and this was Young Jeezy's brand, right? And so Young Jeezy pretty much had, I don't even know, I'm gonna get that story from whenever I get with D-Map. I've been trying to get him on the show. And when y'all do it, I'm gonna go down with him too. I'm gonna go down with you when we do that. Cause we're going probably be within months. Give me about two or three months cause we need to go down there. But we just basically, what I wanna say is that was the pinnacle moment for me. But I didn't, when I first met you, I didn't know none of this stuff. That's why I'm giving you the whole breakdown. Yeah, yeah. So 8732, how did you feel about the brand? Yo, I'll never forget, I was in Philly selling to a store called City Blue. Okay. And he was buying a gang of Gill Yard and I was looking up and I was like, and I've seen this collection. And it's talked like how I'm a slick talker when it comes to clothes, right? It's like even my shirt, it says God Greed and Glamour. Meaning money holds in clothes, right? Just another, it's just another way of saying it, right? Money, God, greed, what everybody works off. Glamour is like the fly stuff that we get once we get both, right? For sure. So he said he had this collection with Jets on it. But it was well done. He mixed like Greek art motif with Flyer Jets and it said, we fly together. I said, ooh. I said, this man talking, Andre talk. So when I first realized who he was, I was looking for him up in New York and then somebody said, yo, he down in Atlanta. Yo, he left, he doing convertible bird. And I was like, I like that name though. And then me and him kept, you know, going back and forth. You like convertible bird? I like the name. And then I thought it was V-E-R-T-T until it was out of learning, it was C-B-E-R-T-T, right? C bird. So when we got on it, me and him was just like, boom, we understood it. How did you end up linking with him to even develop the brand? I told you, I told you, he, we just kept going at it. And I, you know, at that time I was still, I was a young man of the Lord at the time. I was going down Atlanta and just laying hands on women and just, you know, doing the Lord's work. And then I was some time hit them up. You know what I'm saying? I used to be, Atlanta used to be. Atlanta was a different type of Atlanta. Atlanta, listen, in my prime. Was that the BMF days? It was, it was right, it was shortly after. Shortly after. Gill Yard, when I was in Gill Yard, matter of fact, true story, I remember when it was, it was me, Jameek, this guy named DeMurph and a couple other cats. And we did the, listen, matter of fact, another six degree of separation. We did something called the dirt, you can look it up, the dirty awards with radio one. Okay. That was us. We sponsored that. That's how you get the BET Hip Hop Awards. Wow. Because once we stopped doing it and fell off with it, is how they, they use the same place even for the BET Awards. So same, same arena. The same arena. So what's funny is, is that we had a party at one of those clubs, go ahead, man. Because sometimes when people hear certain information, especially if they don't know it, some people are gonna go searching. Yeah, they could. But could they find this information anywhere? You could look up dirty awards right now. You probably still see it. Okay. I don't know. It was radio one. Where was it at? It was in Atlanta, at the convention center. And, and that's where they held it. We did the first one, 2005, was it five? We did, you know, 2006 and two, it was either 2005, 2006 or 2006, 2007. And when did BET start? BET best started.  Then you seen the hip hop awards come. Okay. Because it was the same format, same format. It was just like hardcore, South, hip hop and then everybody was there. And why did they let go of the dirty awards? I don't know. Maybe they couldn't get the sponsorships because we co-sponsored it with radio one. They wore our clothes. We did all the radio ads with them, everything. And so going back to that story, I remember I forgot, I think it was Club Miami, something like that in the A. We pulled up to our party. Yo, they had the whole front, Lambeau, Ferrari down. We couldn't get into our, BMF had the whole things is like, and we didn't say nothing because we knew what it was about. We was just like, I, well, I started acting like it was my car. Wow. But that was a true story. Have you met the guys in BMF? Like I said, that day, we saw them.  I'm not gonna get into the story because I know there's some other stuff behind that. But yeah, one time, Blue Da Vinci came to our office on some stuff. That's all I'll say like that. And we'll just do it like that. Okay, I just didn't know if, you know how that's the first time you seen him at that time, people tend to mash and create relationships. I didn't know if you create a relationship after that. You know what happened was, Miss Miami, you told me I was young at that time. So and another thing was, was that most of us was from up here. The only person that was really in that life down there was D-Murph. I gotta give him that credit. Like he was in that mix of Atlanta. He was between the Bronx and Atlanta, the Bronx and Atlanta. So, but we knew because like, don't forget when you land at Hartsfield and you drive, I forgot that highway. You see the world is being mapped. You saw that billboard right there, right? So you know what it's about, but neither here nor there. So, yeah, so that's just a small synopsis of where you saw a lot of my stuff branched off into, getting back into like 2009, when me and Matt first became real, real tight. I just believed in his style because me and him, so if you put your glasses back on, when me and him first started talking, meaning E, my brother's CEO over here. Yeah, I put my glasses back on. The way E came to me is cause I had on Alpinus. Yeah. And Matt had on Alpinus. Alpinus. And Matt, that's what I'm rocking right now. No, you got on Dita. Oh, well, I thought it was Alpinus.   No, believe it, Matt had on Alpinus and I had on Alpinus, but Matt wear prescription sunglasses and I don't, right? So if you look at maps, it looked like glasses, but by mine being sunglasses, it looked so, he was like, man, those bitches, ah, man, you know, that's how he talk. Man, don't bitches, ah, man. And I was like, yeah, man, good luck in there.  Oh, damn! Don't throw them Alpinus, it's, ah, no. No, it ain't no logic. We in here would have just talked about. Yo, we was talking for hours about that, man. We'll go back and forth about whether it be, it could be glasses, it could be Rick Ross and Lil Wayne. I remember that big, we had a big old controversy about that. I was in LA with y'all. True story, he didn't even realize. I was in a studio with some cats that rock with both sides. Yeah. And I'll never forget, I had to leave, that's why I said, yo, eat, hold on. I had to leave the room so they didn't hear my opinion. You didn't even know that. I was, I was dead smacking Studio City at a studio where they were at. And I was like, no, you wrong about that, bro. You wrong about that, bro. I'll never, no, no. We were going in, I think you was the Rick Ross side, wasn't you? Yo, that's crazy. And I was Lil Wayne crazy at the time. I wasn't trying to hear nothing you was talking about. Yup. And I think, you know, the thing is, man, that's iron sharp and iron, man. Iron sharp is iron, bro. So, of course we both made our valid opinions, but one thing we did was always state what we felt. And I think that's what me and dude, we gonna put our chest out and let you know. Nah, man, I don't agree with that, but, but we really just, just really up in each other, you know, trying to figure out what detail do you know. You saying this, but what you got to go with it. And after that, we get off to it. We want to know what to do. We should go in. I remember we were trading verses. Cause I said, yo, Ross at that time was in his pocket. She was. And the reason why I said that, because at that time I used to still hanging hard with cool, from cool and dry, I used to really hanging hard. Yeah, you was hanging with them during that time. So I was like, yo, bro, I gotta go with Ross. Cause I used to hear things that y'all didn't hear. And I was just like, yo, Ross, bro.   I don't know how you met them because you, Yo, yo, yo, man. I used to, I told you, I was young and fearless. So cool and dry, well, they both produced it, right? But I remember it was really with Dre. I was only around Dre twice. I was around cool, heavy. Okay. You know what I'm saying? But I said, yo, cool to me, man. I used to, yo, I used to say, cool, yo. Now mind you, they're tandem, but I'm not taking one from the other. But to me, they're the most slept, even though they're stars, a hundred percent. They're star stars. But yo, you talk about one of the more not really brought up in the conversation of like sound changing music.  You know what I'm saying? You know, my, my favorite will always be Manny. That's what I said. I know. And we're going to get into that because, you know, I've been hanging out in New Orleans, man, and I've been with K. I tried to KLC. Hold on. Side note, how do y'all both like New Orleans? I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's a south thing. No, no, no. I'm going to be honest with you. I can't take New Orleans. No, I loved it. I'm not. What you mean? What you mean? This is what I'm saying. I have a problem with seeing our people in poverty. You know what I'm saying? I hate it. Now poverty is up here. Trust me. I've seen it. But. I've just seen it. I've been walking through it all day, nigga. Where at? Where at? I've been around it. I was in Brooklyn. Before I was in Brooklyn. I was just, we went over to where I've been. Well, man, you're going to see homeless people. I've seen them. I've been trying to follow some chasers. I had to check him. Jesus. I'm looking around like, nigga, you better quit following me. Yeah. New York is a, but the thing about New Orleans, man, you just see like. Nobody, nobody likes to see our own people. People, but you see it, but you got to understand. You talk about almost 80%. 80%. Okay. What I'm telling you that I love. I love the fact that I love the culture. I love the culture. I love the music. I love the music. I love the spirit. You know, that's one thing they have. You can't tell them that. Even the food. Even the food. The food is amazing. But the reason why I say that, right? And. Everywhere is different. Everybody is different. So forth. Everybody's seen different levels of poverty. Because of course. Because the reason why I'm saying that. Growing up in Jamaica, Jamaica is a third world country and so forth. But growing up there, I didn't really think of poverty. I didn't see poverty.  Because you know. You don't recognize it. Right. Parents did not, they don't put their kids in your business. You know what I'm like? My mama would tell me, growing up now, like I asked a certain question. And she was like, I would never, I said like I was rich. Do you understand what I mean? I understand what you're saying. But I was not. But what I'm saying is that, unless you're a child that's going for days hungry because I have no food and so forth, which I'd never experienced that. You know what I mean? But people can look at a whole country just like we talk about generalization and say it's a poor country. When they go there and, I remember a person from here saying this to me.  You pay a dollar for it, whatever. And some people call it shower shoes, whatever. And she went down there and she's like, oh my God, somebody was just so happy to get those sandals I gave them, just like that, the flip flops. And you know, how they acted like it was so much. But for people here, it's like that's just a dollar, like that's nothing. But again, not everybody. So, be from down there. And you get that. People like anything new. Number one, no matter what it costs. I didn't care about money. I didn't care about fashion as in like growing up as a kid. I was just homeboy. Me like, I didn't care about brand name. I just care about, okay, it's a cute. Is it fit? It looks good. I'm good. You know what I mean? And I was that nerdy chubby kid growing up. A lot of people who've known me as I got older, be like, no, you're lying.  So when you were saying the things that you were saying about you being nerdy and chubby, I resonate with that. Cause it was when, I remember before I went, actually went to a guy and told him I had a crush on him. When I build up the nerves, I was a teenager. And he looks at me and I was chubby. He said, I like your friend. That crushed me, of course. Of course. But later on in life when I lost weight, I realized that all those people who fell that way, was at my door knocking. Mmm, church. So I understand your philosophy with certain things. You should, I'm doing the work of the Lord. But look, this is what I wanna say. When you live, the United States of America is an aspirational hyper individualistic country. And what I mean by that is, right? So poverty affects you different. When you're in poverty and see a SL 500 drive past you. But if you're in the woods and there is no SL 500, right? Your dynamic is different. But imagine it's just like this. If you're a child and you might have a two parent working home, but they don't have like what you call discretionary or excess income, right? But then the next kid in your class got all the sneakers, you know what I'm saying? Because that's what's promoted. And it's a different mentality of poverty once you see both, right? And that's what I'm saying. So for example, one of the cities that I love are also cities that in certain areas, you just be like, man, like Philly, certain parts of Philly, you see it, you just be like, man, New Orleans. And I love New Orleans. Listen, my first time in New Orleans, I thought I was in another country. Because first of all, the dialect will have you going like, what? Like that's my father. Yo, who? My father. Yo, father. Like, you know what I'm saying? Where by the tadah, you hear me? Like I used to love that. Like I didn't know what they were saying, but I used to love it. I just want to ask you about this Manny Fresh. I love Manny Fresh, bro. Just what made, was it what particular time, because he has phases, what particular song, what particular thing that made you like, like, man, this guy's something different. Is when, so I didn't like them when they first, when I first heard, whoa, even though that's like my favorite song now, when I first heard, whoa, whoa, whoa, King Masabe. Yeah, big, big, big ball in this, my heart. I didn't like that first. My cousin, Jonathan, when I heard the aforementioned, Jonathan, when I told you about before, he's from Arkansas. Even though he'd been living out here for 10 years by the time the song came out, he used to play it.  But when Juvie came out with a Follow Me Now, when you heard that. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Mmm, I want me a meal, the stage is hot with field, don't worry about no bills, negotiate. I was like, oh! I was like, because in hip hop, you didn't hit that Mexican chord and that sound.  You know what I'm saying? And when he did, you know, it's just so many records, like how he used to switch up the sound. Like when he did on Little Wayne, Get Off the Corner. It's not like one of my favorite songs. But if you zone out on the beat, you'd be like, oh! You know what I'm saying? His, the big time is what you call album, the hood rich album he got busy on. I know Jazzy Faye did some records up there, but that was one. But I can tell you my top many records. Frontback, the way he did for TI, even though that was a remake of Pimp C's version, the original version. I loved Doom, Doom Clap for Jazzy. And then what, like yo, Manny had the records, man. Like if you think about it, when he left Cash Money and he went solo-dolo for, it was a three-year period that most Southern artists took their first single. It was Manny. Wow, I'm so, during the time, I know you spoke, it may have been off of mine, but just hanging out with Juvenile, how was that, how did you even connect with Juvenile? Who put me on Juvenile? I think it was my man Snoop from South Carolina put me on Juvenile. And this was, what happened was, he had sent him some clothes right before the flooding. It was another flood down there. It wasn't Katrina, it was another one. And like I said, I was always trying to get with him outside of that, you know, just it. But every time I would try to do that, it would be something, like I said, he had a studio right outside of, I don't wanna say, I don't put this part, but you know what I'm saying? So it was like that. But I used to always tell him like, yo, bro, I just gotta get with me. Cause he was one of the few producers I couldn't get in touch with. I used to love Manny, bro. I used to love that dude, bro. I, for something about his sound. I know you always would tell him about it. I used to always argue with y'all about that. I argue with other producers about that. I'd be like, yo, Manny is the one. I don't know, maybe, and maybe that's just me. Maybe that's just preference, right? Cause you know, everybody has a sound. How many a bad boy? When you think about just the musical movements now, cause I know we're gonna go back to the clothes, but just the music now, where it sits, where it stands in the New York and New Jersey area. What's going on up here with the music, man? Let's be real, man. I'll be honest with you. 100%. I'll be honest with you, bro. Like to me, and I'm not, maybe I'm old, but like I just, it's hard because at that time, I think about it, when you called me about Wayne versus Ross at that time, we were going lyric for lyric. Yeah. I can't really give you lyrics now. Like I can't really give you quotables off an artist. Nothing out here, can you give me a quotable from a rapper? No, no, I'm not allowed to. Cause it's cadence, it's a certain sound. It's melodic now. You know, Glorilla might have had the hardest song last year. And I'm, yo. And I'm not being, did you hear what I just said? I heard, yo. Y'all interviewed Glorilla yet? Not yet, but I'm just telling you, she might have had the hardest song last year. Yo, I mean, if you think about it, if you give me a certain sound, I can go, I'm doing bus talking rap and we going to the snap. I got the stick in the bag. I'm in the, yo. What's the difference? And I'm not knocking. That's just a sound. You understand what I'm saying? I'm trying to figure out somebody who had a big song last year. Anybody else you could think of that? Cause I'm talking 2022 that had a big song last year. I mean, if we, if we're going to be honest, if we're going to be honest, right? And if you're going to be honest about the sound that me and you were accustomed to, cause to me it shifted major. If you think about it, the only one that really keeps the older sound alive, and I'm not giving him credit. It's just that he has the artist that's willing to do the records with him. It's kind of like Khaled, right? So he'll bring a Jay-Z, a Nas, a Ross and let them do that lyrical thing over more recent sounding music. You understand what I'm coming from? Because if you think about it, to me, if you're in a car, unless you're like really young, like your children age, right? And y'all driving from Texas to New Orleans and all new, the new hip hop is playing. How do you know the difference between little baby, this one, that one? They all have the similar cadence. It's all a similar, it's all a similar rhyme flow. It's all a similar cadence. To me, the only like new generation that has a different type of cadence was the Migos compared to them. Cause the Migos are just stacked, right? I think, you know what I'm saying? So like I said, it's hard. Like I try to get into it and I'm not saying that it's whack at all because that's what the generation dictates. Who would have ever thought that, you know, rap would have went from black power to gangster rap, from gangster rap to what we call a jiggy or opulent rap, right? Me and my chain, my cause.  Let me ask you this. It's been 26 years since Biggie was murdered. But I was on the internet last night and I see this cat out of Mississippi who sings lyrics to Juicy. And they're saying allegedly that he had that song before Biggie had that song. I have heard anything like that. Oh man, I'll show it to you in a minute. It's crazy. So I don't know because of what technology is if somebody went and made that a thing or if it's a real legitimate, you know, thing because even Biggie sang the song down in Mississippi and back up, you know, but it's a thing where, and I gotta let you hear it, man, cause this could come up with something like that and just make it up out of the blue. Is that what internet stage is? Is that where we at? Everything is cloud chasing, man. Everything. Listen, you get that blue check by you, even though now you can buy it. Everything is cloud chasing. Everything is cloud chasing. Everything is, yo, I want to be followed. I want to be seen. And then, yo, that's just where culture's at. You know what I'm saying? That's why I'm glad to see y'all do what y'all do organically. Yeah, we try. And on my channel, I don't care about viewership. I'm just doing the work of the Lord. You know what I'm saying? I'm just talking to these ladies and these dudes. You know what I'm saying? I don't care about it. Because like I was telling my man Obsession, it's like, yo, if it was old school rappers that I dealt with, I could do that all day long. But then if they come to me like wean them, then have like a real relationship, then I'm just like, I'm good on you too. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I'm good on that. That's why with me, it's like when I see you guys, I root for y'all because it's organic and y'all really just, you came out of nowhere with it. But you knew me like before. Yeah, and it's organic. And it's organic. We just like I said, when I put up on the scene, Kobe here and I'm like, I gotta do something to make sure people pay attention to my store. That was where everyone was doing. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, if I don't do this, I ain't gonna stay in these people living room. You're not. And that's the way everyone was doing it. So then when I did this, it was like, okay. But then it took off. It was like, dang, this, man, people call me literally. NFL players call me. My wife can attest, it was like, e-man, you should have been doing that, man. You fit that whole criteria, bruh. Because you were best. I said, dang, really, they rock with thank you, man. Cause you a boss. Hey, man, I gotta get Rick Ross on here for show. Boost.  But I want to go back to a convertible Bert right quick. Go back to it. Y'all had put some, I think I seen two chain in that thing. Yeah. I seen some people, tell me how y'all got these different artists in the clothing. If the artist came from, if the artist came from certain, like I would get pieces to cool. And I would give like to like, young Chris, Freeway. I remember I don't, I don't know, I think. But I'm one of my good, I consider him a good friend to this day. He don't speak to me. I don't know. But my man, Droopy, E-40 son, I always loved, I used to love, me and Droopy used to talk on, you know, all the time and I, I used to try to like put him with East Coast. And some artists, he worked with young Chris. He worked with Free. But, yeah, like I would do the North thing, like the North and then one thing I would do, I remember I told you, I used to travel with the core DJs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tony Neal and his people. And then through the core DJs, I met the Fleet DJs. And through the Fleet DJs, I met, it's the other one, Elle Nice, Future Star DJs. So I would give it to radio programmers and give it to that people, right? I used to try to infiltrate, you know, at that time, you're young.  And this, like, yo, I'm telling, I tell people, I was talking to young Chris manager, Hassan, and we were talking about the Kanye documentary. I was like, yo, you know, many of those scenes, we were right there. Like it's crazy because at that time it wasn't cool to be on camera like that. It just wasn't. Yeah. So you like, when you think about stuff like that, like that's how I know I missed the boat. You know what I'm saying? You just spoke on Kanye. I was in Vegas a few weeks ago. Man, I interviewed Malik Youssef, man. Oh, Malik Youssef, yeah, they came up with, yeah, the spoken word brother. Yeah, I interviewed him. Man, it was a dope interview, man. I'd never seen that coming. I talked to him night before last, like. How did you all get with Malik? Man, my partner, he ain't never did nothing.  Cause me and Malik, Malik one of them dudes, he don't even do it. Right, Malik is one, yeah. Malik one of them dudes is where you like, either in that mix in Chicago or you just don't, you know what I'm saying? He rocked with Boss Talk, man. Like I'm telling you, man, these doors that keep popping open, what you gon' see people like yourself on here, different people that you wouldn't normally see, bro. Booze. That's what I think makes it different. And then we hear, we out here in New York, New Jersey, kicking it. So, you know, and we don't wanna pick up and come to you too. We don't have no problem pulling up on you. We've been pulling up. Pull up. So now that we pull up, we pull up like this. Pull up. You know. Booze. But you know, so I'm really like, I really, really, really, I admire you, bro, because of the things that you did in this game, man. Let's talk about that brand that you, the one man you talked about, was it, man, Paradise? Passport. Passport. That's mine. Yeah, that's mine. Let's talk about passport, man. Passport. I had me and another guy, another guy, me and my man from Converable Bird, not Matt, but my other man, I had said to him like, yo, cause I knew Matt was going through something at the time. And I was like, yo, I got this thing in my head, bro. Cause I like, I travel the world with you.  I won't say necessarily more than me. At that time, he definitely was, because I was on my, I ain't gonna lie. Financially, you know what I went through at that time. Financially, everything. I was on my backside, right? And I was just like, bro, man, I just got this idea. And I just like, yo, I want to be the first, at that time, so you figure 2016, 2016, when I first started like developing it in my mind, I was like, yo, I just want to be the first brand, like on a streetwear level for black people, not just black people, but like that from the black side of the game that can be found in Switzerland and Hong Kong. And, you know, cause these are places that I wanted, you know, that I've been to before anybody was thinking about it, right? So he loved the idea. And I, yo, at first it was wack, meaning like just not stuff that people seen, like stuff that was just coming up with it. Like I was kind of like blending airline culture with it. And then I was like, no. And then I was just like, and I came up with like everything, right? This whole concept of like, the world is yours, you just don't know it yet. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, and I just tell people like, the only way to change it is you got to see it. If you don't see nothing, you don't know what to change, right? And then I came with, you know, some stuff. I'll never get the first crew next we put out. Had it done in China. So what I did was I said, okay, since it's an international concept, I took foreign cars and blended with my talk. So I took the Ferrari and put straight horsing around on the back of the shirt. Wow. And then I took a crew neck and had the Lambo sign that pyramid boom in the center of the chest with the bull.  And then on the front, I took one of your Bible verses in your book. The rich shall inherit the earth. And I know the meek shall inherit the earth. And I said, the rich shall inherit the earth. And then on the back, it said international success. Wow. And them joints blew out of stores. I remember having to go in the middle of the night into the storage place where I was shipping out of, I'm talking about the middle of Harlem, it's tired. Boom, boom, boom, reorders, boom, boom, boom, reorders. The t-shirts I did was crazy. I'll never get the first one. We did the grind hard to find God, niggas love it. And then I did the young yacht club. They loved that one. They said, navigate your way to success.  And it said, make yours, take yours, hand over fist. And I remember, yo, we, yo.  Just, it was just coming to you? Yo, when you see what I'm about to drop, come and soon, man, I'm talking some real, like now that I got that fervor back and I got my paper all the way up.  And the difference in the differences, the difference is now is that I'm gonna do it differently. Like I'm not even going to my market. Like I'm gonna be in Stockholm with it. I'm gonna be in Paris with it. I'm gonna be in Amsterdam with it. And I'm gonna show other people, not my people, other people, then Dan was like, yo, let y'all come when y'all ready. I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen.  Yeah, now it's gonna be different. I just, like, when you come up in an era like we came up, man, I mean, I understand the people before me, how they was like, man, back in my days, because I started seeing the way that things were and the way things are now. And I started really understanding that change is really, really inevitable. And it's something that you can't turn back time, but you reminisce those things like the convertible bird on two chains or just y'all brand basically the stitch, that stitch, you don't really get it, bro. That stitch is different, bro. Yo, that was, I always tell Matt, the favorite t-shirt, me and the favorite, my favorite t-shirt, it was that whole capsule, though. We did this whole capsule called the double cup, we called it the double cup race, it was double cup racing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were just in our, never forget it, me and Matt was in a mold then, boy. We did the double cup joint, we did winner on the front. I remember.  And we did sloppy toppy on the highway. Y'all did the Mason Dixon line? We did the Mason Dixon line. We did, I'm trying to think, because we had a, we did the outlaw. The outlaws, I remember that. We did that one.  The La Flame shirt, yes. Oh yeah, yo, we were, boy, man, we were awesome. At that time? At a different time. We were awesome, bro. And like me and Matt was talking about that the other day, he said to himself, he can be mad that we were early. I said, that's just what it was, man. And exactly, exactly what it was. What do you say to when you see, and I'm dropping all the way to another subject? Yeah, go ahead. And then hip hop again. We just talking, bro. What do you say to those, when you see the artist is dropping dead, like I hear you had, what was it, was it chinked? So what was it, who was it out here that passed away? French Montana's guy. That was changed drugs, but that was a while ago. He got killed, he got murdered though. But still, I'm gonna keep going, I mean, I'm gonna keep going, because you know already, hip hop is, you see these youngsters like, what's the other boy down there in Houston? Was it takeoff? Takeoff, yeah. That was sad, man. Then you look at the other guy that was stabbed in the neck in L.A. It was a couple of them in L.A. cases. You see Big Scar, who he's in the south, one of Gucci man, artist dialed for, what's that, what's that drug? They tried fentanyl, you know? Fentanyl? Yeah, and like, that's what they, you know, legend, I'm just saying, what do you say to all of these, cause really back in the day were big, when Pac and Biggie did that, it was big, man. But now it's happening to where you can almost, gangsta boo died, you know what I'm saying? Come on, man. I went in, I was trying to get her pregnant, man. Now I'm just saying, you're not going to have to. So, man, I'm just saying, man, what do you say to the way you see hip-hop falling apart when it comes down to how people die? Hip-hop is the most dangerous job on the planet. I hear that. That's what it is. Gucci is one of the guys that always say that. Yeah, it's the truth though. It's the most dangerous job on the planet. Especially, look, with jobs come lifestyle, right?  Wow.  Back in the day, the Jack Boys was jacking the dope dealers in all kinds and hitting the dope houses. It's the same type mentality as just going toward, maybe it's because they're in the entrepreneurship. You gotta understand too. It goes back to what me and Mr. Jamaica was talking about. You gotta understand something. I'm gonna teach y'all something today, right? So, you know, I'm a psych-hop. My new thing is two things. I only study money and psychology, right? Psychology is the way to have these conversations. And in psychology, there's something out of the Bible which has made its way into, it's really economics, but it's also a form of psychology, which is the Matthew effect. To those with everything, all is given. To those with nothing, all is taken. You know what that means? It basically means everyone loves a winner. But it also means is that what happens when if your raps, right, is talking about the bread you got, the cars you got, the women you got, but the person that's buying it or streaming it ain't got nothing. But then he might see you at the gas station and might just wanna flick and you like, I don't wanna flick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is that gonna do to him? Then it's like, damn, I made you rich. And you might just be having a bad day. But in the back of this dude, mine's like, yo, my girl listening to you. I'm the reason why you wearing those jeans, those sneakers, driving these cars. Yo, it's the Matthew effect, right? It's like, yo, so the person on the bottom is room for the person at the top, but then when he gets to that person, it's like, yeah, you on the bottom. Wow. And I think that's sometime that translates because yo, listen, the wool's gonna eat. The wool's gonna eat. The wool's gonna eat, bro. I wanna ask you about, there are some different, also rappers that, you know, this thing snitching is on an all-time high. Because anytime, we're back in the days, people didn't talk about people snitching on the dead. You know what I mean? On the dead. What do you think about that? I'm asking you that. I'm trying to understand like, when you see somebody say they snitching on the dead, what do you think about it?  He said that basically he told on his cousin, but his cousin was dead. He went ahead and told, say it was on, it was his. Cause he was dead already and it will basically get him to where he went to have to deal with the issue at the time. How do you feel about somebody telling on the dead? Yo, see, you and I both know street culture and street rules varies from city to city, state to state, bro. Like, okay, so listen, I'm a type of dude. I know how niggaz is.  What's the odds of that? How many are really gonna do that? I get it, but do you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? And answer my question. I'm answering your question. I'm like, who am I listening? You and I both know, okay, for example, if, hmm, I don't know if that might get me killed. All right, if, how can I say this? I'm trying to use a real life example of like trying to show you. I just don't see, I remember when I was in Shanghai, it was me, my man Los, and my man, my former partner with passport. And my man Los said something dope. He was like, he said, there ain't no such thing as snitching. He said, yo, everybody gonna snitch. Now, now the person I just mentioned, both of them, both of them dudes are certified, suited and booted. You understand where we're coming from? So everybody gonna snitch. I think, I don't think necessarily everybody is going to snitch. I think they're going to put themselves in their best interest. If they, if they, because how many, I now mind you, I would say this. I would say this. Somebody in that circle, they still tall. So maybe, you know, but like, what he was saying though was basically is like, you know how hard it is not to, you know what I'm saying? So Boosie might just be a, just a real standup guy. And yo, think about it. The street rule made him drop a whole project that he was having with TR. Yeah. So that, it itself did. Maybe he was just that much of a standup guy. Maybe they're gonna bring it out here in a minute. And it's gonna go crazy. You know what I'm saying?  That's why I was trying to put you with another, this other dude, but you, you have Prevy to interviewing them. And I guarantee you, if you ask 20 of them, you might have a 50-50 answer from them. Because like, yo, you don't like, how many of them dudes is going to relinquish that lifestyle? I just don't see a lot of that. I don't see a lot of men just like, yo, well, we see what happened with my boy, man, young thug. You know, when you think about like the Rico charge that it was on a state level, but they end up getting a Rico and then you see Gunners released and all the people that was locked up with it release it kind of confirms what you're saying. Right. I think, I just think that, I think that, all right, bro, how many, you know, up here where I'm at in New York, New Jersey, you snitching is like, secondhand, they going to do it. It's on an all-time high. It's at an all-time high and they going to do it because, and if you think about it, if you listen to a lot of dudes, what you call their explanation is always, yo, that man was sleeping with my woman or they getting my money now. Yo, I don't see how, I just don't see how most of these dudes are going to stand tall when it's their lifestyle, bro, on the line. I just think that they like, yo, man, I think they say I'm a roller dice and I'm going to take my chances out on the street and don't forget, let's not forget this. We let someone, not we, they let someone infiltrate the culture in six, nine, couldn't rap just a weird looking dude, right? May snitching a household activity, came out, called himself a rat, all this stuff. You know what I'm saying? And then he, think about this. He sold you the poison and then arrested you for buying it. But then also, let me ask you this since you went to six, nine, being that he's from up here in New York. I mean, this is hypothetical.  Let's hang out, let's go do some partying together, man. You my guy, man, let's fly out, let's do this. Are you the guy that's going to, right now, because people have said, I heard, was it Aikon he went back and did, was it locked up with him? It was, and whack 100, you know, basically say you still rock with him. Like, where do Andre stand when it comes down to six, nine? Could you be that guy's best friend? No, I couldn't. Listen, I live in it. Listen, I'm up here. So if you understand that in these places, whether it be the X, whether it be Brooklyn, whether it be Harlem, right? Like you gotta understand, like you're, that man promoted something that is our demise. And then when it was time to stand tall with it, it was like you, her, her, this man was adding people that was, he was implicated people, not even in the case. He never said, he never, he, we knew what he was when he came in the game. That's my point. That's my point. We knew he wasn't straight like that. That's my point. But we up, then why can't we, why can't we support our rappers like that without having to have him infiltrate your culture?  Right? Right. I can't go, like I can't do that. And then, and then look, look, look, be with them in Texas, right? Can we do that? So we don't, we don't embrace him. We don't let him come with purple, green and orange hair and go, we gonna do that? Yo, that wasn't cool. So, and then you're promoting our demise.  You understand what we're coming from? The one thing you and I both know. And when you go to LA, right? I remember sometime, this is before checking in was checking in. I remember when I used to be, oh, I still am, a man of the Lord. And I had a couple of women out there. I used to like really tell them, take me to the hood, right? I used to want to talk to everybody, right? I wanted to hear the culture. You know what I'm saying? And I remember one dude tell me, like, you know how I feel?  And you see it in the only time you can kind of like kick it with is at the gas station because you can't cross over and you know what I'm saying? People really like with dying over that.  Like, just think about that though. No, no, no, it's real, real spiel. You know what I'm saying? Because street cats supposed to keep it street. You got it right. Like, I can't listen. As much as I be in the trenches, dudes know I drank on smoke, drank on drink. That ain't him. And I be in the trenches. You know what I'm saying?  You know what I'm saying? I was just in London by myself, I'm solo dolo. Anywhere you find me, I will be there by myself. You know what I'm saying? But the point I'm making this is like, yo, I just don't, yo, I just don't see it.  Yo, I think that's why, listen, this has to be a psychology behind it. There has to be a reason why they separate you in these rooms when they interview on you, right? Yeah. Right? Good cop, bad cop. Yo, he said this, why you don't know what he just said. Oh, he said that. He don't know what you just said. That's real. You know what I'm saying? So they play that against you. But what is this we're dealing with nowadays? Like, when you look at the WAC 100 and J Prince and just the way that people are doing each other on the internet, is this thing, man, something to where, you know, is it something to where you can gauge it on? Oh, that's, he just talking or is this a thing that anytime you say something, it can and will be used against you? Yo, the tongue is mightier than the sword, man. And you got to understand that. So you got to look at things from, we live in a sensitive time, bro. And like so, for example, I can't come to Dallas, disrespecting the culture and the people, like if New York, New Jersey is better than Dallas and not expect to get them things loaded up in me. Wow. Right? Just like when I'm in LA, I know how to move in LA. You know what I'm saying? Just like when I'm in, like one thing I do is like, I practice the slang in each of these places.   You know what I'm saying? I do that for a reason. It's saying like, I was talking to my man from Atlanta yesterday. I was just flicking off. Like, what up, what up there, what? You know what I'm saying? We used to do that. You know what I'm saying?  But like, yo, we, we learned, you know, you learn, you know, how to move in these areas. Yo, my man, Chilio, he's still popular in Atlanta. My man, Chilio, he used to say to me, and this was right. This was round about the time the dirty wars and all that. I used to be in a car with him and he go, yo Dre, now he's from Pittsburgh initially, but he lived in New York, he lived in New Jersey, but he lived in Atlanta now.  And Chilio used to be like, now this was like 06, 07.  He's always say that. He be like, they don't like that fast talking, slick taking. He's like, yo, you could be New York, but you better not, you know, try to influence that on, on these Atlanta. He's always tell me that.  He's like, I had to learn how to talk like that, yo, you know, I had to learn how to be Atlanta. And then he taught me that, like he taught me how to maneuver in those areas. Man, I just, like I said, I really understand that, that, you know, these times are different than what we, what we did. Totally different. Totally different, bro. Totally different. And the internet then flipped this whole game on him. Man, how can people get a hold of you if they try to link up with you? I would be in your daughter's, no. No, um, look up, my YouTube channel is just my name, A-N-D-R-E-B-O-Y-C-E. Andre Boyce, Instagram, PatrickPassport15, and I'm about to start uploading, not this month, but like next month when I, when I go abroad, I think I'm gonna go to Amsterdam in April. I'll start uploading some new product too. I got some stuff being sampled out in China. China is about to fully open. So I sent some stuff over there that I'm about to really get back in. I just been on the low. Cause like I told you, I've been really just getting my paper all the way up. Wow. But you know, um, anything else though before we go? Cause I wanted to really, cause you want to, what else you want to do? Oh, it was, it was, uh, where my hand at, man? I already know something. Oh, let me see what we got here. I got to show them the hat, man. There it is right there. Passport global guys. Y'all got to understand this boss talk, man. We got to show love, man. Look at, look, look, man. Y'all got to tap into this passport. This my guy, you know, I'm a clothes guy. You, if you watch the show, if you watch the show, you already know. Y'all already know.  This right here is passport, man. I got to show it, man. Let me look and see what I'm dealing with here. What, ill industrial, okay. That's the old sewing machine. That's some European. Wow. But um, my grandma had one like that. Yeah. Industrial sewing machine. There you go. Man, that's hard, man. Thank you so much, man. Thank you, man. Listen, man, got me a, you know, starter pack, nickel. Y'all want to see what I got in the starter pack right here? I got him the Dallas starter kit. We just got to give him the shag. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? We just got to give him the shag. We just got to give him the shag. Man, man, thank you so much for coming on Boss Talk, man, blessing me. I deserve all these blessings, man. I got the shades, I got the hat. Man, I've been blessed, man. This only, only when you've been in the streets and you're on boss level that these kind of stuff happen, man. Street's got to eat. Say, man, listen, man. Check it, man. It's been another great segment, man. And I know y'all didn't hear me say this every time, but it's been another great segment of- Here you go, Mr. Maker. What? Mr. Maker got blessed. Oh, man. He's got it in. But listen, yo, listen, man, if you want, like I said, I'll go down there, man. I really want to have a, not a lot. We can do it. Because obviously me and Mr. Maker have two different vantage points. Which is good. So I would love to come down there and hold service, hold your service and take up a collection down there at the store and have a little diatribe with Mr. Maker. I could have went in a lot harder on you. I would love for you to go in a lot harder. Go in a lot harder by now. No, I keep getting looks from one to the other side of the table. No, no, no, no, no, no, we, I just want to get through all my subjects.  No, no, no, no, we going to leave that for when you come to Dallas. No, I will, I will, give me a preview. Give me a taste of you going in hard on me. Man. That's okay. Why not? I got it. Hey. Yo, it is. It's been another great season of the Boss Talk 101 when I'm bossing. Listen, listen lady.


Good morning. Good afternoon. Welcome everybody. We have another session for you. This is a Canadian All-Star Superstar session coming to you, I think, from right across Canada today from Western Canada through Alberta and over into Ontario. So my name is Ann Marie Scott. I'll be helping to facilitate the session. I'm not going to take too much longer. I'm going to introduce our speakers. We have Marina Roberts and Helen DeWords, and they're going to be talking to us about intentional open learning design and action. So ladies, over to you and take it away. Just waiting for this slide. There we go. Go ahead, Helen. And we just want to take this opportunity to share some ideas, some thoughts, some connections, and we have a padlet available for you to share your thoughts and we'll build some more connections. Excellent. So this is a picture right outside or down the road from me in Calgary, Alberta, and we welcome you to intentional open learning design in action. Next slide, please. So I just first want to acknowledge that I am on Treaty 7 territory in Calgary, Alberta. I acknowledge the past, present, and future generations of Stony Nakoda Blackfoot, Tsutsina, and Métis nations who help us steward this land as well as honor and celebrate this place. And I acknowledge that I am on Treaty 2 and Treaty 35 land in the area of Windsor and Detroit, and I honor the past, present, and future generations of those who are caretakers of this land and honor and celebrate these places. And we are here together because Helen and I had the opportunity to work together at UBC with the education faculty as learning designers, and it became very apparent very quickly that we have similar approaches, but we have come from very different perspectives. So I'm a K-12 or I was a K-12 educator until February, a school leader and adjunct assistant prof. I've taught classes on assessment with pre-service teachers, issues in English language learning, and most recently ed tech ethics course. I'm located in Calgary, Alberta, but moving to Montreal this summer and I'm doing some social research and higher ed open learning design and I'm part of the GOGM, open education for a better world network and social research networks at my university. And you can see some common threads between what Marina has shared and what I have shared. My background is as a K-8 educator, school leader, became a teacher, faculty of education instructor, and I'm located in Ontario currently working on a PhD in open research, part of the GOGM and virtually connecting networks. And we're here today to share a bit about how would you do our kind of open learning design? So go ahead Helen. So as we talk about this we think very intentionally about the design of the courses and the learning opportunities that we present to the students that we teach and really we base this on Catherine Cronin's research where she talks about negotiations. And as I was reading I developed this this graphic to help me figure out how I'm dialing up or dialing down depending on the specific factors that are listed at the bottom for the students. So thinking about the students in terms of their agency, their efficacy, safety, security, their experiences, their facilities with digital technologies and not dialing up when they may not be ready for those to be dialed up. We recently had the opportunity to write a little bit more about our authentic assessment practices and how we design authentic assessment experiences for the students and build that into the course design with some real intentionality and our course assignments we in order to assess student learning we realized that we needed to be very intelligent and give students an opportunity to show what they know in very authentic ways that honor their individual life journeys that sets their own goals for the course content and really thinking about their future goals as opposed to our intention for getting them through the course material. Thank you Helen. That's a good point about the future goals. So everything we design for goes beyond the course if you can imagine that like that's always how we're thinking. So this comes from my dissertation research. It's called the OLDE, the Open Learning Design Intervention. It's based on four stages as you can see, building relationships, co-designing learning pathways, building and sharing knowledge, and building personal learning networks, all the while focusing on reflections and reflective practice in multiple ways and forms. The key parts to this are in online learning environments, I develop, I ensure that we have what's called social pods which are not usually not assessment groups but like or groups that are doing projects but groups of support so they come together and they're always there for each other to come together each week and talk and interact and that supports some of our participatory social media integration as we develop our PLN personal learning network. Next slide please. And from that research in the Open Learning Design Intervention, I did come up with some principles of open learning design in any learning context and I just wanted to highlight here that this is important that the learners have an opportunity to co-design in any context and what we mean by co-design is the opportunity to have that discussion and voice with the instructor to figure out which direction they're going in their own personal learning journey. They share their learning experiences through open and closed feedback loops in multiple ways. They transparently demonstrate their learning in meaningful ways dependent upon the context of the course that it's we're adamant that the learning occurs through stages and continuums and is a personal learning journey so it's not something that we will expect everyone to do each time and we always emphasize the learning process over the product. This comes from theory and current literature and you might see some names on here that might be in the room today which is rather exciting. So while at the bottom you'll see by Gotsky, Dewey, Barth, Scardimalia, and Barrett are really help support the theoretical foundations for what I believe we consider open educational practices. It's also really important to bring in current ideas and emerging researchers and scholars like Kuros, Kanol, Jenkins, Ito, Drexler, Cronin, Greenhow, and Boyd just to name a few. And that brings us to the application practice that I believe both Verena and I have used this empathy map as we intentionally begin to design a course or as we intentionally review and reflect on how the course worked and applying this empathy map really helps us focus on the learner at the center of it all. And in a lot of ways I use this empathy map in conjunction with a pre-course survey so that I get to know what my students are bringing in to the course and what they're hoping to gain from the course and where the pain points and the gain points are as they step into the course and it really helps me kind of refigure or provide strategic support. One of the other, sorry, one of the other options is using a week zero. I love the concept of using week zero. Yeah, both of us use week zero so you'll see that we spend a lot of time ahead of the course so that people have described in flipped models where or flipped blended models where they add the content before and then they talk with the students during the class time. We do a lot of the preparation and design ahead of time so that we have the opportunity to connect with the students and figure out what they want to do when we start the course. Now the following slide is just a quick example of how I set up my ed tech ethics course for example. So I instantly think about who will be taking the course so you'll see I ask myself questions like how will the students see themselves in the course so what kind of resources can I use to ensure that they instantly feel that they're apart how do I build those relationships where are they in their program so I understand their skills and competencies how will I connect and interact with the students but and previous instructor or other global experts but how will the students connect with each other as well and finally what learning tasks will they find meaningful what so I have to ask them those kind of questions as well and how can co-design how can learners co-design their own learning which will be different for everyone. And as we're building the design of the course I'm very cognizant and conscious of of building in this notion of UDL universe of design principles for for their learning and and this is intentional in the pathways and opportunities that I designed for the students and where their where their choices and agency can can be made and it's not just in this case we're really looking at how they become expert learners throughout throughout the course but not just within our course but within the whole course of of study that they might be in and how we're engaging in the why the what and the how of learning through these multiple multiple ways and multiple pathways for example in my course an inquiry project is the the ultimate outcome but it's a very iterative and responsive way of them building to the concluding project and I think both Verena and I can speak to them we love this graphic by Phil Hill in and I don't think I got it into the pilot but we'll get it into the pilot so it's there as well but it really flattens the the the territory for learning it provides multiple different tools and mechanisms for students to show what they know and giving them some choice in that so that I'm not dictating that they must create a blog site with with blog responses unless that is what the intent is using announcements strategically building you know the safe spaces for them within the learning management system because that's where they may feel most comfortable and where they have the most experience but then slowly finding ways to move them outside of the the boundaries of the garden and from the oldie um sorry for the next slide we I have modified the open learning design and it in the courses it looks more like this so you you're you're seeing a a continuum for a process to product that balance between the two and to do that you think about internal feedback and external feedback and a reflective process over and over in iterative stages that you're constantly checking in throughout the course um and finally based on some of the current findings of my social research on the ed tech ethics project we're seeing an increase in engagement and learning because students identify their choice and authentic learning environments we see feelings of support because of their peer groups and check-ins and timelines and we see connections between each other and personal learning networks due to the external feedback and experts themselves um being a part of the class and my students developing into becoming those experts in the field and that's where we're going to end it and and questions and comments are welcome yeah oh thank you um there was as you were talking there was a I would say perennial debate raging in the in the comments um so I'll I'll try and kind of frame it because I think people might be interested in your practical experience there was a a bit of the old um if students set their own goals how does how does that line up with learning outcomes um and and then and then quite a bit of chat about you know how you work around that but I'd be interested in you know as you've applied this in in various contexts have you come up up against that challenge and how have you managed that challenge um in terms of assessment we integrate the learning and comes into the rubric so the rubrics highlight some of the learning outcomes and then we emphasize that for the students throughout the course so in terms of meeting that balance with our institutional needs um that has resolved that problem but on the other hand I use the learning outcomes throughout the course for the students to reflect upon so I ask them where they're at continuously by throughout their participatory activities or whatever we're doing and if they don't think that they're meeting those course outcomes then throughout whatever journey or pathway that they are taking then we have a conversation about it yeah and likewise it's it's taking that those outcomes that are dictated by the institution and making sure that the students are are really caught aware of and saying okay so this is how I can show you what I know to do and this is how I'm going to show you that I can do these things and and having those conversations with them as as we work through the projects and the assignments yeah it's all about them showing us how they can or how they perceive themselves to demonstrate evidence of the learning outcomes one of the comments that was in the chat was around the possibility of students setting their own learning goals as one of the learning outcomes so you you define the scope of what it is that you are aiming to get out of this and then demonstrate it is that something you've had the opportunity to do or I can't change any of my learning outcomes at my university um specifically however in that what do we call it module zero I do set up surveys to ask them about their goals so I guess I modified that idea Ann Marie but yeah that would be a dream if I could influence though I would say and at the end I meet with my director and we talk about the learning outcomes and how we need to reshape them or change them at the University of Calgary I do want to say that to be fair Helen can you change your learning outcomes but but I think out of those if the students know what they are their outcomes so if they've they've already figured out why they're taking my course they know they've got a goal in mind and and and they will find themselves in those outcomes and yeah and as they go through the course they'll find themselves I like that they find themselves in the learning outcomes I would agree but it's super scary as the instructor when they start and you're just like okay go for it let's see where we get and Helen and I have said that we never have the same outcomes of course design ever ever although for the pandemic I would say that I didn't have to make many changes I was we were flexible responsive caring and we were we were good and and for me for my pandemic reaction response was to dial back on a lot of the dial back on a lot of the those open those open things and and do do less of some of those and some students push themselves to the other end by themselves because they wanted more open they wanted more public they wanted more dynamic for sure go and I'm just looking at the comments to see if there's any other questions for you um I did see a little comment about your avatars on your slides there was a lot of love for the there you go Catherine's comment right there a lot of love for the Helen viewing and I thought if you speak to which slide very nice I was Helen I I've done that with other presentations where I've got co co-authors or co-writers or co co-presenters and it's so easy to figure out okay so who's talking now instead of trying to remember so we've got a question here from Jane who's asking wouldn't course outlines or outcomes come from curriculum committees approved by senate and universities yes I mean changing stuff once they're in motion is hard is my experience although as I say we can't we have had the opportunity to make adjustments after the course but that just ensures that as an instructor I have to give evidence as to why I want to make these changes so it's not a bad thing necessarily and and Leo's put a comment about the writing of learning outcomes is a bit of an art form this conversation is reminding me of a course structure that exists at the University of Edinburgh um where I was prior to to Athabasca which is a it's a student project course but it's an empty shell and so one of the learning outcomes is that students define the project and they write the plan they write the kind of learning agreement all those for what they're doing and that's a really flexible model the learning outcome is very clear but within it there is total scope for the student to define the work yeah I think we could and in my case I like to structure it so that the students can find and figure out why they're doing why I'm asking them to do certain things um and and then stepping off the diving board and trying something different because as I think that once they know that they know that they can find their own way through the the course yeah content activities yeah helping them find their own way yeah that's exactly it Helen it's how do we and then once they find their own way and some of them never do I'm not saying this is successful for all students some of them just want me to direct them the whole time that doesn't work as well but if you can help them find their own way and that's what we mean by we're designing for sustainability beyond the course they understand that this is about beyond the course we are I'm a bad bad bad post I'm sorry Tim you should check it later um thank you everybody thank you Helen and Marina for the conversation and enjoy the rest of the conference thank you so much round of a virtual applause for everyone