All right, everybody, welcome to Iran Book Show on this Monday, May 15, I hope everybody's having a fantastic beginning of their week. Thanks for joining me. I am still in Rome and I will, so today will be part two of my show on Rome and in the history of Rome and the arts in Rome and we'll talk about that, we'll spend today on that. I know some of you are eager for me to return to the new shows and I will do that. But you know, not a lot is happening in the world, I have to say, when you step back a little bit and you go on vacation and you scan the news periodically, you realize that, you know, once in a while there are major events that happen that have real significance for a very long time but mostly it's just the grind of the news is not ultimately that interesting. I will say that maybe the most important item in the news the last couple of days was the fact that in Turkey the opposition candidate did not beat Erdogan, Erdogan actually won 49.5% of the votes because neither candidate got over 50%, it will go for a runoff. Pretty much everybody expects Erdogan to win the runoff so really, really bad news out of Turkey where it looks like Erdogan is going to stay in power after 20 years because he will continue to be in power and that's not good news. Not good news for the West, I don't think it's good news for Turkey, it's very bad news for Turkey, not good news for the United States, not good news for Ukraine. The Russians are celebrating, maybe the Russians, that's how you do with the vote, who knows, a starter rumor. Let's start a rumor. Anyway, the election was stolen by Russian bots but I think that's the most important piece of news. The Ukrainian counter-offensive has not started, though it does look like they've made some progress on certain fronts and it does look like the Russian army continues to be in complete disarray and in terms of US politics everybody's waiting for DeSantis to announce even though everybody knows or everybody expects it not to make one eye out of a difference. Everybody at this point is expecting Donald Trump to be the Republican nominee for president in 2024. Maybe the most important item in the news over the last few days is being the fact that the Celtics beat the Philadelphia 76ers and are off to the East Coast finals, East Coast finals against Miami. I expect the Celtics to beat Miami and go on to the NBA finals, probably against Denver and that'll be a good series so I'm looking forward to be home and watching that series and for Boston to win. All right, that's my news of the day and hopefully that'll satisfy some of your desire for more newsy shows. I will get back to more kind of events, news and stuff like that tomorrow, you know, soon. Suddenly once this trip is over but I thought since I am in Rome, and since Rome was such a crucial city to the history of Western civilization and since I am learning so much or remembering so much about the history of Rome, the history of the Renaissance, not just the Renaissance, the history of the Renaissance and then today I was at the Vatican and both at the Vatican Museum and then at St. Paul's Cathedral and so I thought it was a good opportunity to talk more about Rome and about the perception of particularly in the Vatican of power and the world that art played in both kind of helping the Catholic Church establish itself, dominate Western culture and Western civilization for a period and helped them sustain kind of their power and control. So that's all we're going to be covering today and I will be taking questions so I don't know how long of a monologue I have so I will be taking questions on pretty much anything so feel free to use the super chat to ask questions and yeah we'll take it from there. You know one of the things that as you look as you observe in Rome and when you go to Vatican becomes real but really as you travel through Rome or the other place is really the central role of two figures who dominate the history of this city and in that sense dominate in many respects the history, the static and but more than the static history of Western civilization at least this period of Western civilization the 15th, 16th, 17th centuries and those two period are Michelangelo and Bernini. Michelangelo and Bernini's life span just over 200 years about 210 years from the birth of Michelangelo to the death of Bernini. Both of them lived very long lives both of them lived to be well over 80 I think well Bernini I think 82 I think Michelangelo 86 so both lived into the 80s there's a gap of about 30 years between their lives so in total in total you get about 200 years in which these two men dominated this this part of the world and in many respects had a lasting and a massive impact on Western civilization not only were they incredibly impactful and you might say well Michelangelo was born in I think 1475 but but but he had it started having an impact at a very young age right he's David and his is pietà you know that those are done very early in his life in his early 20s if you look at Bernini he starts having an impact in his early 20s his great sculpture the great sculptures of Bernini all done in his 20s and he had both of them not only have a massive impact through their art on art aesthetics of the period and all periods that follow but they also become icons of the period they have an impact on all the other artists who follow you know I'll talk about the impact Michelangelo has on Raphael we saw that today in the Vatican Museum and but they also architects the architects of significant churches of significant you know just arches and gates and staircases and everywhere you go this was done by Michelangelo this was done by Bernini this was designed by Michelangelo this was designed by Bernini and it's on and on and on it throughout you know you know throughout the whole city and throughout this whole era these two men really really dominated the Renaissance and the and the in the period the you know Bernini of course creates and is the key figure in the Baroque and they they they signify also this real transition between a Renaissance church and a Baroque church and in a Renaissance church that has a particular nature and then a Baroque church that has a very different nature because the church in the Baroque period is having to deal with a a reformation and is engaged in its own counter reformation which was which was quite impactful so they all have to deal with their own politics and ultimately that politics I think gets reflected in the art and really even in the architecture the politics of it the the the need the needs of of the church you know kind of dictate art and aesthetics and architecture and city design during this period and and really the thing that comes to the forefront when you travel through Italy here in Rome in in Florence is the centrality and the dominance the centrality in the dominance of the Catholic Church over everything that happens here both politically and and culturally and of course I think the counter reformation and the Baroque ultimately lead us to a to a decline in that power and and a decline only in the power of the church but as I talked about the other day a decline ultimately in the political power of Italy and the political power of the church as a consequence there because you know because it the cultural refrigeration basically causes culture to stagnate it causes politics the economy to stagnate it causes every aspect to stagnate versus northern Europe which is gun hole and and pushing ahead and taking the ideas that they have integrated from the from the Renaissance the ideas of Greece the ideas of Rome the ideas really of of Greek philosophy that the Renaissance embraces the church turns against those once the reformation starts and once and of course in in the north the reformation allows for degree of freedom a degree of liberty intellectual liberty that is you know on hodov in the south particularly in the anti-reformation south in the anti-reformation Italy where you know in the south you can't think new thoughts you can't push against the dogma against conventional ideas and that is what causes Italy ultimately to decay and Europe ultimately to flourish and the whole center focus shifts to the north where there is people are open to think all right so that's quick overview kind of historical but let's let's start with with Michelangelo and and his role in Rome and then we'll get to we'll get to Bernini and and kind of the interplay between them and the popes I mean one of the things that's happening in in Renaissance Italy and Renaissance in the Renaissance churches that the the popes are consolidating power the Vatican is consolidating power and the key big important families of Italy are consolidating power they're becoming wealthier there's more economic activity going through Italy the Renaissance is creating a real rebirth a real excitement a real energy around art and about aesthetics but but all that art and aesthetics needs some economic activity to fund it and that economic activity starts happening you get you get the Medici banks you get you get you know much more industry and agriculture at scale nothing is compared to what's going to happen a few hundred years later with the industrial revolution but this is the beginning you don't get an industrial revolution without a Renaissance and during this period you know that the church is consolidating power the church is accumulating wealth accumulating wealth by basically taxing it away from people and it is accumulating political power it now has a military force it has generals it has and it's becoming a much more secular institution there's some question about how many of the popes were how religious the popes actually were some popes at least two of the popes during this period never attended mass never never performed mass they weren't interested many of the popes were super corrupt many of the popes were had children had mistresses had lovers had you know had orgies in the in the Vatican so this is a a period of where the churches is somewhat secularized it's infused with the philosophy of humanism of these neoplatonism and and and the emphasis is the emphasis on establishing the papal spiritual authority over man's soul so the popes feel that this new energy coming out of the Renaissance is threatening and they have to establish their power and they have to solidify it and part of the way in which they established their power solidified this power over the peoples that populate Europe at the time is through art is through is through storytelling right it's through storytelling and a lot of what the pope the church is trying to do is say look we are the true inheritors of you know our message put it this way none of the heritors our message is the message of God we are in communication with God again whether they believe that or not this had you know this had incredible power over the masses and provided them with spiritual legitimacy we are we are connected directly through Jesus to and ultimately through Moses to God himself and we as popes we as the Vatican we as the Catholic Church are responsible for this you know string and we get a legitimacy from these connections and we need to find every way we can you know to establish these connections and if you look at the art of this period the religious art the extent of it the degree in which it is it is produced this art is trying to create this this view this view of of Christianity's dominance over the spiritual world of the link of Christianity back to Jesus in an Old Testament and and and and ultimately to to to to a God it's and it's trying to create an entire it's taking the mythology that is in the New Testament in the Old Testament and it wants to present it to the masses remember most people during this period could not read indeed a small minority certainly in the Renaissance a small minority people could read this is before the printing press so you know most people had a vague notion of what Christianity was they they went to church they the priest would yell at them they would feel appropriately guilty and they would go and live their lives but there was no there was no real conception or real understanding and no real knowledge of the stories of the mythology that is Christianity what the popes do during this period is they bring to the forefront the artists to tell the stories and it truly is stunning when you go to museum after museum after museum you see the same you see the stories repeated you know in in slightly different different presentation but the stories are repeated you go why the hell you know you must have had this if you go to museums and somebody asked is Rome versus visiting absolutely I mean I've done shows about this you guys need to travel more you guys have got to get out there and and visit the world and see the world and see the treasures and look at the history and we're so consumed by the politics of the day that we lose all context of the values that are available to us in the world out there the Rome is a jewel you know it's not a city I would want to live in it's not a city I would want to keep coming back to but it's a city you have to see this is my third trip to Rome I don't know if I'll ever come back from extensive tour I might once before once more before I died but this is a place you need to see you need to see once twice three times you learn so much every time you experience so much every time I mean seeing today we saw the pietà and Michelangelo's pietà at the Vatican seeing the Sistine Chapel but even seeing all this religious art is so eye-opening inspiring interesting challenging exciting you know and emotional because because the themes are often universal themes otherwise it wouldn't have worked as religious art so one of the questions if you go to a lot of Renaissance museums I know a friend of mine or God and other Jesus and another Jesus and another Jesus you know another the same the Jesus and the and and the Virgin Mary and and Peter or Paul or whatever and the same configuration the same people all the time story after story each one done differently by different artists but they're all the same stories and you go why the hell did they paint the same thing over and over and over again and of course the obvious reason is that they had no photography they had no copying they had no print books that you know you painted a I don't know pietà pietà is Mary morning over the death of her son Jesus Christ and you do one and that's it you know and some people will see it not that many people will see it but like there's one influence and what about Rome shouldn't Rome have a pietà and what about this other place people didn't travel people didn't see stuff and again there was no copying there was no photography or books or art books or things like that so while we go to a museum and we see the same story in painting over and over and over again which is super interesting because you see the different artists interpretation and different periods of time different periods in in in history where they did this but at the time people only saw one or two or three I mean they didn't experience this there were no museums museums here's a here's an interesting museums are more out of phenomena the first museum I think was here in Rome in a public museum was in the 19th century there was no conception of museums there was no conception of putting artwork in the public space and people coming to see it to the way we do today so people collected art but people had so this guy's collection had one pietà and that guy's collection had another one this guy had a painting of this story and if the church wanted to spread the stories the ideas the mythology if he wanted these stories and mythologies to become part of their culture part of what dominated people's lives if they wanted to humanize these religious stories and turn them into something that is relatable to human beings so that they could relate to their religion and they could relate to the different characters then what they did was they used the artists to do that they commissioned the artists to keep painting the same stories over and over again in different formats in different places in different during different periods in different styles so as to constantly put a face to an an an an image to the stories that people might have heard or might not have heard in church and this is how they spread the religion this is how they humanized the religion this is how they made it real for people so that when you see when you see you know christ and and mary you get the real sense of the of the of the enormity of the death of this man and and the effect it has on his mother and and and and you see that in in michael angell's petavich you see it in other the same or you know one of the things you see over and over and over and over again over and over and over and over again is is jesus on a cross but again there is a purpose here it is to constantly remind you it's to constantly remind you what it is that you're worshiping it constantly reminds you the sacrifice that was done in your name for you it's constantly to remind you but at the same time it's so to humanize jesus to make jesus real to make the suffering real so you see him there you see him in pain you see him in agony you see his body okay now wow this is a human being i mean the son of god seems a little abstract and jesus on a cross in a storybook uh when he's also the son of god and part of this it's all but now you make it real might even be concrete in front of me you've concretized this ideal and of course this ideal changes as as as um as ideas changed about human beings so he starts out as the shriveled you know almost abstract human i mean it's it's obviously a human being but he's he shriveled these is you know not really human not really alive and and partially that's that's all they could sculpt partially they didn't want to sculpt human beings um but then you get to to jesus on a cross in the in the renaissance i mean now you have a real human being and and often uh now jesus has become a hero not just a hero of spirit which is what is what he was i think in the middle ages you know because the body wasn't there there was the body was just a symbolic almost in in the renaissance jesus becomes a a a a physical hero he has this amazing body and and you know you see this body on on the on the cross and and given the spirit of the renaissance when you're discovering Greek sculptures and you're seeing and you're rediscovering the beauty of the human form and you're rediscovering this potential of human life and potential of human happiness and potential of human success with the kind of the elevation of the vestigial Aristotelian ideas now you're seeing this potential crushed on this cross it makes it all the more powerful and and it wouldn't have meant anything to to to the renaissance audiences to have just a symbolic man on a cross now it has to be a real man and not just any man now the renaissance is engaged in hero worship so the man on the cross has to be a hero and that heroism is manifest in a a muscular beautiful body so jesus is transformed um you know from from the middle ages into uh into uh into the renaissance but all of this is done and and and so much of the focus of all this art is is done if you will you know just call it propaganda is is terrible because propaganda usually propaganda is uses very bad art and and very shallow art and and not art at all it's it's it's propaganda but the catholic church had the advantage of being able to to rally to its cause and to its belief set the most talented the most amazing artists in all of human history you know michael angelo was a as far as we can tell was a real um believing christian and became i think more religious as he aged and you can tell in his in his artwork so you can get a michael angelo to come and paint their sistine chapel not only is he you know the the the era is most amazing um artists uh not just the era maybe all of human history is most amazing artists but he is also somebody who believes so when he's painting the sistine chapel he believes in what we he's doing and you know the sistine chapel is is amazing it is it's just a it's just a stunning uh work it is it is uh you know massive uh it took michael angelo four years to paint which is amazing how fast that is given the size of the sistine chapel given the complexity of it this is just the ceiling will get to the the and he does it uh in uh uh you know in when he's relatively young but it takes him four years it's very difficult because it's painting a ceiling so imagine what that does to your neck imagine the stress the difficulty uh and uh he does he doesn't he starts at the beginning of painting the sistine chapel he uses apprentices primarily apprentices who are um who are experts in painting on walls painting on on a ceiling because that's not his expertise he learns that particular skill from them and then fires them off and he pens the race the rest all by himself and and when you look at this and you look at the at the at the stunning work that's up there and you can't really appreciate the work that's on the sistine chapel um without let me just see what's going on without also um without fully understanding what happens before and and how it impacts after so aren't before this is i mean it's it's to a large extent it's it's static it appears static it's not completely static but relative to Michelangelo it's static again people are not fully alive um the they you know they don't have kind of the the muscle the tension that and Michelangelo is a leap artistically suddenly people are live people are in motion people are in tension the the muscles are showing they are strong powerful and it's it's a it's a it's a revolution you know when Raphael uh you know our guide today was telling us Raphael goes into the sistine chapel he he can't wait for it to be finished right but Michelangelo won't let anybody see it so it's locked only he can be there the pope once in a while comes into bug him but other than that people you know they're not allowed into the sistine chapel and Raphael supposedly bribes a god to let him in one night and he goes there and he's blown away he's just blown away by what he sees it's art that nobody had ever seen before Michelangelo was doing there and it completely changes the way he then goes and paints the way he then goes and and and paints his figures and again he makes them more dynamic uh more muscular more engaged um uh you know and and and much more alive much more alive gone other kind of well not gone completely but but a lot less of the kind of pretty static beautiful Raphaels that you see early on and suddenly there's this dynamism and excitement that he's learning from Michelangelo um and you know I think last time I talked to you about Caravaggio seeing the sistine chapel and blowing him away and changing everything for him and inspiring him to be to be the kind of artist he becomes clearly you know it all inspires Bernini later on so Michelangelo is this transformative artist but what is the story he's telling on the on the on the on the ceiling it's all a biblical story it's often basically from the creation of Adam all the way through the Old Testament um you know God created well it's before the creation of Adam God God is creating the the universe is creating light and day he is creating Adam he creates a woman out of Adam there's Noah's Ark so it's the story of the Old Testament leading up to the story of Moses then there's a panel of paintings around the story of Moses which is done by other Renaissance painters and you can see the difference I mean these are great painters like Botticelli and and others and but you can see the difference between them and Michelangelo it really is a leap it really is a massive difference um and it's glorious the colors are glorious the figures are glorious they're strong they're powerful it doesn't matter that the that the the biblical it doesn't change anything from if you you know I'm sure it does from the perspective if you're religious and you see it wow I mean here is the story that I kind of heard a little bit about in the church but here's here it is in real terms here's God creating Adam here here here's the Garden of Eden here's what it means it's it's right there in front of you it concretizes these these stories in a way that's super powerful in the way that the Catholic church realized and understood the power of concretizing these stories and making them real and making them beautiful making them inspiring and associated now inspiring beautiful with inspiring beautiful connecting that with with Christianity with the church somebody says didn't Michelangelo meet Da Vinci yeah they they met Michelangelo didn't get along with anybody he was not a likable guy he didn't get along with Leonardo he didn't get along with Raphael but particularly Raphael who is younger than Michelangelo they all admired him greatly I mean clearly he was the the the great artist of the era all right so that's the Sistine Chapel what's interesting really interesting is in the Sistine Chapel you've got the ceiling but then you've got one of the walls which Michelangelo comes back I think it's 30 years later and paints and paints judgment day and this is a very different Michelangelo now this is of course the topic is judgment day but this is a you know generally again you can tell in order Michelangelo real transformation from the David even the pietà the Sistine chapel to his later work and judgment day is a painting of of of much more anger it is it is a it is a painting of the final judgment and and the people going up to heaven and the people descending into hell and it is it's stunning it truly is stunning the number of naked figures on that wall twisted and again beautifully done the the the the the the the musculature the the energy the passion I mean it's a scary image particularly if you're a believer if you're a believer and you look at this and whoa I want to be on that side of the wall not on this side of the wall because they because it's it's it's clear and there's Jesus dividing everybody up between heaven and hell uncompromising and and you know when the pope commissioned him to do this wall one of the things that's unique to Michelangelo among all the artiste is is nobody interfered with what he did nobody nobody second-guess that nobody indeed when people saw what he was painting when some of the cardinals saw what he was painting they complained bitterly to the pope because they said this is the Sistine Chapel and and look at all the nudity on this wall and the pope said it's Michelangelo you don't change anything by Michelangelo now much of the nudity was taken it was was eliminated after Michelangelo died after Michelangelo's death you know which is which is good because he would have hated to see it different coverings of penises were put in place during the Reformation and the the argument was that it was either to destroy the painting completely to wipe it clean or to cover up some genitals and and the the perspective of the starians as well at least they didn't destroy the painting they left the painting because they were ready to destroy it they this is the kind of Reformation was ready to destroy many paintings many artworks in the name of preserving the faith right in the name of preserving the religion so I mean wow what a what an amazing painting just a number of figures it's funny because you know all they are they all describes this but Michelangelo uses this to set off some scores of some people he doesn't like all going to hell indeed the cardinal that complained to the pope about the nudity in the painting is um god I forget the name of the the lord of the underworld he's the guy responsible for the underlawed underworld and he's got a snake kind of grabbing onto his genitals so very very very very very uncomfortable position for this guy to be in again this guy complained to the pope how could he depict me this way and the pope just shrugged it off it's Michelangelo we'll leave him alone um so uh uh fig leaves yes fig leaves kind of fig leaves or you know they didn't use fig leaves they also used cloth they they hired a painter in the after Michelangelo was there they had a painter to cover up the genitals in in in various uh in various ways uh anyway this this is a truly striking uh if you if you're in Rome you've got to go to the Sistine Chapel you've got to spend some time there your neck will hurt because you're looking up there's a ton of people there it's crowded people are yelling it's it's not the greatest experience in the world from that perspective but you've got to see it you've got to go see it so that is that is kind of the use by the popes of Michelangelo and and again throughout his life um Michelangelo is used by the popes to you know he designs um the the the the main part of St. Peter's Basilica is a design by Michelangelo now it's it's later changed um Michelangelo uh uh his church is is later the structure of it is later changed from his design but the core element of the church is still there that the the dome is a Michelangelo designed dome I mean this is not what Michelangelo wanted to do this is not what Michelangelo would have preferred to do um he spent much of his time and I think this is part of his anger and resentment and malevolence towards later in his life was that he spent so much time not doing what he really wanted to do with his sculpt and and not really doing what he wanted to do with his sculpt what he wants to do once the sculpt he spent years and years years on the tomb of Julius the second the pope um which was never really finished uh he he spent years on the Sistine Chapel which he didn't really want to paint he he spent years doing architecture which he didn't really want to do architecture and engineering really he wanted a sculpt and he was not allowed to sculpt I mean one of the great tragedies is the lack of freedom for geniuses like Michelangelo but you know we we get to benefit from the things that he did do and and and see uh let's see Rob says the ceiling has undergone a major restoration in recent years yeah about it the restoration was finished about 23-4 years ago they they took away all the and a lot you see this in a lot of places they took away the grime all the residue that is left from the periods where all the lighting was from candle light and the smoke and that created a layer on the paintings and they took that layer off and revealed the the the true colors that Michelangelo actually used and and that has brought the ceiling alive but when you go definitely look at the at the last judgment and the power of the last moment and remember think of yourself as a Christian think of yourself as a believer looking at this and what kind of the impact this has and how again this is used as a tool of power over over the kind of the the spiritual realm over the you know you better behave because this is what happens and and you don't want to be on that side of the painting you want to be you don't want to be a part of the painting that's going to hell so behave yourself and and take this Christianity take your religion seriously and take these these popes seriously and take these Cardinals seriously that they're the bosses in the spiritual realm they make they make it all you know they make it all possible so the use of art to establish spiritual control massive and you again you walk in a any church any church in Rome and you see the use of art all over the place to do exactly that to tell the stories and and and move move the the the believers in ways that you couldn't do you couldn't do without the help of aesthetics without the help of art work all right you know one of the things so that's that I want to say let me just say I highly recommend the Raphael rooms in in the Vatican they are beautiful they're amazing the school of Athens of course is there and you've probably all seen the poster the school of Athens and one of the things that really stuns you when you walk into that room is how big the school of Athens is in real life much much much much bigger than the biggest posters you've seen of it and how alive the figures are and how the whole the whole setup is exciting and amazing and beautiful and and and moving and you know and one of the figures is actually you know Leonardo da Vinci is Plato and then Michelangelo is one of the characters in in the in the school of Athens as well but the school of Athens the real thing is definitely was seen as compared to the poster you can't even compare it and the other thing to note in the Vatican Museum is just and this is true of everything related again to the Catholic Church in this period is how important it was for them to preserve Roman art and to link and relate themselves to the Romans and this has to do more with political power and and and their legitimacy as political rulers they viewed themselves these popes viewed themselves as the heirs of the Roman Empire of the of the Roman emperors they viewed themselves as the true heirs of Roman emperors they believed they should have political power and in addition to the religious power that they had they wanted to control their political power and in order to establish a link to the Romans they copied the Romans wherever and whenever they could and they they they associate themselves with Rome so they bring into the Vatican all this woman's sculpture and they bring into the Vatican Roman marble and they bring in the Roman architecture and they adopt for themselves this connection to Rome again storytelling is so powerful the the ability to to tell a story to concretize for people who you are and what you are you're not just this this church you're also an heir of an empire you're also the the the aesthetic you know religious and political heir and and and they can do this because Constantine of course converted Christianity he was a he was an emperor and and and the the final Roman emperors were Christian and they could say now as as pope I am basically continuing that tradition because they wanted that kind of that kind of worldly power they never had it they never got it but they wanted that kind of worldly power in in this world uh in addition to uh to the uh the spiritual power the the religious power and and you see that in uh in their in the way in which they embrace everything Roman they embrace the Roman empire they you'd think that they would reject Rome right because Rome was about persecuting the Christians but no they actually embrace it and they bring it in and they view the pagans as these as as great but that Christianity supersedes them and that they are the heirs in every respect and this political power becomes more and more and more important to the Christians to the to the Vatican and to the popes as we move into the post renaissance period and we move it to the real the first real major challenge to the catholic church which is the Reformation and suddenly Christians all over Europe are saying no to the imposition of the catholic church's power whether it's England going off on its own uh whether it's Martin Luther uh Calvin and and the rest of of the Reformation and the Protestant world just basically telling ignoring and rejecting the power of the catholic church and not only this this lead the hundreds of years of some of the most brutal wars in all of human history Christians have a unique place in hell as as some of the most murderous people ever in terms of their campaigns people always cite how murderous the Muslims were and they were but the Christians are just as murderous and you know the 30 year war the 100 year war and gazillioners of little wars in between Protestants slaughtering Catholics Catholics slaughtering Protestants all for this for power all for this power and the Vatican's wants to really make it clear that they are they are Christian there's only one Christian and it is them and that they dwarf anybody else that they are bigger better more powerful more stronger and and they intend and they plan and they are the force the force to be reckoned with and if you go to the Vatican the whole design of the Vatican is built it's it's the biggest um what do you call it square it's not exactly square but it's it's kind of a square shape the biggest square in in the world at the time it's just massive space it's surrounded by these massive columns that are kind of enveloping you so when you're in the middle you get enveloped by them the way in is not the way in we have today which is a big boulevard but two little alleys that lead into this massive square purposefully so that you as the programs come up they're overwhelmed by the size and then St. Peter's is it was changed from Michelangelo's design which is a still a very large church but relatively small and it's a it's a pagan cross what's it called the Greek cross it's a it's just a a a simple cross not the Christian cross the long cross it's turned into a long cross ultimately by Bernini who designs a long piece of it but in order to make sure that it is the biggest greatest cathedral in the entire world that nothing can match it and that it has that claim and it cannot be touched it's so it's it's this so it's it you come into the square and it's overwhelmed and then of course it's surrounded by the sculptures of you know you've got the disciples up with Paul and Peter and in the church you've got the prophets all around it's just this imposing thing where the church is saying nobody's bigger than us nobody's better than us and we can take care of you we are all powerful and it's supposed to convey that and and this is part of the politics of the whole thing and then you walk in to St. Peter's cathedral it's just it's just massive it's tall and it's huge and it's long and it's it's filled with these massive sculptures some of them really really good some of them just mediocre of course Michelangelo's pietà is there that's reason enough to go there it's reason enough to to to step into the Vatican is to see the pietà but it's also got some Bernini's it's just got got some magnificent and of course Bernini Bernini who is who is the dominant sculptor and the dominant artist and the dominant architect of the 17th century 1600s in Rome he touches everything he gets all the commissions he he you know again everything Bernini designed this designed that designed this the early on he was primarily a sculptor later he became architect and and his workshop did the sculptures and bridges the sculptures everywhere is Bernini has touched everything or almost all of it in the name of the pope again and and a lot of it again is to project this paper power to project the grandeur to project strength and you know it's it is it works it works in the sense that and particularly again if you're a believer and you walk into this this is and and today the pope stands there in the balcony and or the terrace and and 200 000 people can be crammed into the square and that is these are signs of power these are signs of political power and signs of influence and and they use these tools they're so effective at using art and using architecture and using just the physical space to project both spiritual and material power and again Bernini is there at the beginning of the decline of Rome beginning of the decline of the Catholic church and he is doing everything as you can to bolster the appearance of power the appearance of strength just as everything is declining tomorrow we're going to go see Bernini's masterpieces at the yesterday or the day before yesterday when it did show I kept calling it the Fittigallery of course that is a mistake the Fittigallery is in is in Florence we're going we're going to the Borghese Gallery which has the the Bernini sculptures again a must-see if you're in Rome these are some of the greatest by far some of the greatest sculptures ever made the mastery of you know I think there's only Michelangelo's the only one who comes close who who exceeds Bernini in the mastery of of marble but and you can see the big differences between Bernini and Michelangelo for Bernini everything is about motion everything is about action and and this has a lot to do I think with the with the changing philosophy and the changing times between kind of the the Renaissance period which is I think far more spiritual in many respects and the time of Bernini which is far more about power so I think the most striking and I'll just I'll just end with this the comparison between Michelangelo's David and Bernini's David and I encourage you all to look this up online but I really encourage you to go to Florence and see Michelangelo's David and go to come to Rome and see Bernini's David Michelangelo's David is all about in a sense spiritual power it's all about confidence and determination and self-esteem and and it's it's it's it's all about the anticipation of action not the action itself it's it's the the the tension the stress the power before the act the preparedness the focus the concentration are before the act it's David with the sling in his hand looking at Goliath in the moments before he's about to kill Goliath the moment that he's staring at this giant in front of him with this confident look let a fount of worry after all you're staring at a giant but this posture of relapse of of stress but confidence and it is it is you know it's just this amazing uh betrayal of of self-esteem and strength and confidence uh pre-action Bernini is in the moment that David is is twisted with the sling in motion about to let the rock loose on Goliath so it is the actual act not the act of chopping his head off not the act of standing victorious over Goliath which a lot of Renaissance sculptors have but no this is the twisted body in action and athlete in action about to sling this rock into the face of Goliath and it is it is um so it's it's a lot more action driven action movie as as compared to the kind of the the the in many respects static kind of David Michelangelo David uh you know ready for action but not in the in the in the act itself in Bernini it's full-fledged it's all about the action so it doesn't have that quiet power that Michelangelo does but it has this intensity and this confidence of man as an actor again the strong face the the confidence the knowledge of what one is doing uh the self-esteem is still there but it's a different it's it's a different form and it's a it's a masterpiece it's just extraordinarily you know he's alive he could be this is an athlete in action in motion and it truly is um it truly is stunning and i i uh i encourage everybody to go and see it and you can see some of the other uh Bernini sculptures in the uh Borghese gallery where you can see where a hand touches flesh you can see the indentation in the marble of that flesh being touched that flesh being squeezed um you can see leaves there's the story of i forget her name she turns into the rape of what's her name she turns into a tree and you can see some part of her hands turning into a tree and you can see the leaves the thin elements of marble that are just beautiful and astounding um and and but it's all everything about Bernini is action and movement and passion there's massive emotion there's no David is is a strain he you feel the emotion when when you see David but he's he's you know super you know cool and rational and ready with Bernini the emotion is all out there you know the this artist called mannerism you know i think because of the the expression of emotion we saw a sculpture in a church yesterday i think of uh of this woman uh it doesn't really the title is just her name and um she is clearly touching she's clearly in a moment of ecstasy right now you assume it's a religious ecstasy because it's in a it's it's in a it's in a a niche in a church it's in a uh you know it's it's a religious piece and yet she's clearly touching her nipple and uh you know her breast and her nipple and she looks like she's in the throes of sexual ecstasy and you can see that emotion in her face and that's the kind of expression and emotion that you get in Bernini sculptures that you just don't get with uh in the renaissance and you don't get uh you don't get anyway close laid up suddenly not i don't know in the neoclassical period where everybody's where they're trying to imitate the greeks you know this is it brings a a humanism a a real humanity uh to these sculptures it makes them real and it makes them feeling beings um which i think is really really important to art to get the sense of the so it's again the differences between Michelangelo and Bernini two of the greatest maybe two greatest sculptures and all sculptors of all of history to see them and compare them and to see the strengths that each one has i don't think they have weaknesses but the strengths they each have the before Michelangelo's David but you still have which i think is the greatest sculpture ever but you still you know the the you have to admire the the just the the stunning beauty and the just their ability of the artist in the Bernini's David i'll just say there's one other thing about you see all this art all over Rome and one of the things that struck me is look how many people could do this and there were a lot of people who were pretty good they might not have been Michelangelo Bernini but they were a level below and maybe two three levels below but even two three levels below is pretty good and really good for any other country in the world the concentration of talent in Italy at this period of time was truly stunning and of course artists came here and studied and took it back and many of the Flemish artists many of the northern european great artists of the northern european came here to study and then went north and what struck me is in one of the differences between this art and what's called modern art is when you see great art you know there's talent behind it you know that somebody had a know a lot think a lot study a lot really figure it out just like it's just like when you see an engineering feat or when you see a great bridge or skyscraper you know real work had to go into real thinking real planning when you see a chunk of marble that's turned into a magnificent sculpture the talent the skill the work the hard work not just the physical work immense physical work just chop away at this but also the mental work that has to go into this and figuring it out and planning and devising and you know creating a little leaf out of a piece of marble that's connected to everything else we saw today a whole a massive relief sculpture with three dimensional figures but and then two dimensions so various levels of relief all carved out of one block of marble and you go oh the talent and the same with the painting the same with Greek sculpture and Greek Greek sculpture or in Roman sculpture and then and then compare that to the nonchalance of the modern artists splashing paint on a canvas you know splashing a line there and another line over here and just it's just the ease of it the lack of any talent the lack of any work the lack of any thought the lack of any effort and that to me you know is a big part of the reveal how can it be great if there's no they're there if no skill needed to be done in order to do it if no you know if it was easy to to I don't know the design of microchip we wouldn't we wouldn't be excited about engineering it it can't be it can't be that stuff just happens like that just splashing or just okay I'll just make this into a round thing I'll just take a piece of marble and carve it into a round thing I mean that's just what is that there's no thought there's no talent there's nothing that goes into it's it's it's a joke and this is why a lot of times when you have children going to modern art museums they say oh I could do that I could make that looks like one of my drawings yeah but no child would ever say that nobody would ever say like looking at the Sistine Chapel or looking at a referral painting or looking at a Bernini sculpture I wouldn't even know where to start and you need real skill talent skill and thinking in order to produce that and that suggests that it's something special something that is done effortlessly with no thought is not going to be anything special all right all right that'll be my my series on Rome for what it's worth hopefully you enjoyed it and yeah let me know if you like these kind of things discussions of history and art and and these kind of topics I know we get fewer views particularly live views I think there'll be more later but uh and we get less super chat uh you know out of this but but hopefully there are enough of you that really like this and enjoy it that it's worth uh me continuing to do them all right let's look at the uh super chat and cover some of these topics let me just say if you thank you thank you Wes thank you Jonathan Honing thank you Paul thank you Kim these all people who've given uh given some money Wes 50 bucks thank you Wes um in support of the show so thank you all guys all right Andrew uh well let me just let me just do this um yeah let's start with Andrew Andrew says are there any great artists today if not why I don't think they are I mean there might be and you could argue that there might be great artists uh in in the movie in in the movie industry um although I don't think on the same scale as any uh any of this um in terms of their their personal genius uh no I mean is there is there anybody in music today that is a Verdi or Beethoven is there anybody in sculpture and painting that is a Michelangelo or Raphael or or even or or 19th century some of the great 19th century painters and sculptors no I mean there's just nobody who is of that level now I've seen some good sculptors uh today that are doing good work I've seen some good painters that do good work you can see them here there you know if you travel and you go to galleries um so the good artists do exist are the great artists that are really doing things that are new exciting thrilling of this caliber I I I I don't know I I don't think so and and if they are there very very few of them you know that are why I think a lot of reasons I I think whether we live in a we live in a culture that um doesn't seem to care about great art um doesn't value it uh diminishes it I think the the quote modern art movement has destroyed art because it has made art into this meaningless talent let talent less activity it's it's it's diminished art of greatness it's it's eliminated greatness from art um so I think that is uh that's demoralized people um I think philosophically great art requires and this is why there was no great art in the middle ages it's it great art requires great vision a great positive view of of the world a great mission to be achieved it's great art is is is the art of the Renaissance through the 19th century that's it and in Greece and Rome and even Rome is is mostly second-handed in the sense that's copying Greece there's really you've got a Greece a great art period and you've got the Renaissance through the end of the 19th century and and a little bit of here and there some early 20th century stuff but really those are the great periods and what is unique about those great periods what's unique about those great periods is they're very positive periods they're periods that have a mission where people have a mission you know they want to convey a certain view of man a certain a certain view of the world a certain view of reality and it's a positive one or it's a well at the very least it's a grand one even if it's not positive it's grand it has and today nobody has a grand vision of the world everything's mediocre everything's blah you know the grand vision of the world today is conveyed in in superhero movies right you know this is why I think movies is the closest you know it's just like the best composers today write music for the movies maybe the best the best directors or the best movie writers are the equivalents of the some of the better artists of the of the past but you know there lots of people out there in the world I know that are incredibly talented in painting and drawing but they live in a culture that doesn't value that they live in a culture that doesn't teach them how to do it there are very few academies in the world if they go to university to learn how to do it they'll be told stop it stop trying to represent reality stop trying to be so truth you know so accurate stop this you know you just just feel it just throw onto the canvas what you feel stop trying to be representational so there's no way to learn this stuff that so there's some schools there's school in Florence there's a school in Barcelona there's school in a couple of schools in the united states where they're still taught kind of the classical techniques but this is nothing as compared to the grand academies of the 19th century right or the other all the other workshops where you learned on the job during the Renaissance and later periods I mean there were apprenticeships and there was there were a lot of artists there were a lot of people engaging in this work you could learn from a lot of people there's nobody to learn from today and there's no market there's nobody to buy this stuff right we went we were walking by a antique store the other day and there's this gorgeous sculpture really really pretty of a young woman she's kind of in a twisted pose and she's looking at her she's kind of doing her hair and she's looking at a mirror and there's this little mirror there and she's looking at it and so it's a piece made in marble and it's made in the late 19th century so one of a kind original 19th century marble piece well made well done and right original there's only one kind of the world I I thought $10,000 certainly five 1600 bucks I mean we were tempted to buy it we didn't because we've got a lot of sculpture I didn't love the piece I liked it I didn't love it but somebody somebody should love it you know it's good enough to be loved and 1600 suggested there's no market for it it's just no market for it and and that's a tragedy that's a tragedy and this is and and so imagine if you were young artists today and you're gonna paint and sculpt representational art great representation art who would you learn from who would inspire you and then who would buy your stuff it's it's just it's non-existent and so there are a few there are a few but it's tough so those are some of the reasons but I think the main reason the reason that dominates this is culture which is dominated by ideas so we have bad ideas that create a bad culture and it's a it's a culture that values material wealth doesn't know what to do with that wealth it's it's the kind of culture where some of the most depressed people are the most successful people so some of the richest people are the most depressed people because they have wealth and they don't know what to do it because it's all about the wealth and they be taught that it's all about the wealth and the only goals and values they have in life is is the wealth and and they once they have the wealth they don't know what to do it and they don't know what to do with their lives you start a company in Silicon Valley at age 20 age 25 you're a centimillionaire what do you do with the rest of your life you have no real beyond the work and you've done the work and and you've got enough money so you never have to work again you sold the company so you're not involved in the company you started you could start another company but you're just gonna have less fire in your belly because you've already made so much money and you don't exactly what interests you and what do you do with all the money and what do you do with the rest of your life for most people the fact that they don't have a lot of money or they don't have that kind of money keeps them going at least in productive activity but because productive activity is not viewed as a virtue it's not viewed as something to get meaning from you for your life or people don't want to even engage in this they get the money and they kind of retire at age 25 it's not going to be good life if you retire to 25 I know some of you think it is but it's not all right Zach says thank you for covering the topic of Rome I love whenever you cover Greece and Rome Roman history it's absolutely fascinating to me thank you Zach appreciate it Andrew is David and Goliath an altruistic story are the real enemies giants in your view um no it's not an altruistic story I mean David Goliath is attacking with his forces is attacking David and his people if David doesn't stand up to Goliath David is probably going to be slaughtered in the attack to come you know somebody has to stand up to Goliath and it's in your self interest to destroy the enemy that's going to destroy your life and destroy your family and destroy everything that you care about so no David and Goliath is not at all David is not an altruist for standing up to Goliath are the real enemies giants in your view you know they often appear to be giants and they often can be giants you know Putin looked like a giant before the war for some people he's still a giant people still treat him as if he's a giant you know you would have thought that this war had brought him down to size to his true size which is very very small um but uh you know he's not really a giant in the sense that he can be defeated and I think that's part of part of the power of the David and Goliath story it's that evil often appears to be a giant you know enemies often viewed to be giants and but with the right skill and the right determination and the right courage and the right ability giants can be defeated giants can be overcome they're giants in in a particular form but you know look Russia is a giant it's competing Ukraine and look how Ukraine is standing up to Russia by using better technology by using by being better motivated by all of that it can stand up to a giant like Russia and make the giant look like something very small so so the story is story is incredibly powerful stories incredibly important and and tools and you know in this sense Jordan Peterson when he talks about stories mythologies it's absolutely right I think he then there's a lot a lot of wrong views about it but he's absolutely right and the story of David and Goliath like a lot of biblical stories are super important some of them some of them represent real values um and and one can learn from them inspired by them and they have inspired people throughout history sometimes to bad do bad things and particularly towards themselves but often to um to do bad things Jennifer says love these shows thank you Jennifer I'm glad all right Maximus SX Maximix you are and do you still do public lectures courses like you did in the past history of the Middle East financial crisis I haven't done a course in a long time an extended course in a long time it used to be that at all cons we used to do courses we haven't done those you know in a while so I haven't done one of those courses I obviously do a lot of public lectures all over the world all the time I put them up online you see them on YouTube it's the more extensive courses that I haven't done but you know I'm I do a little bit of that during these shows so I've done shows on Iran's rules for life that you could view that as kind of course I did a series of shows on on the objectors virtues you could view that as a course so the shows are replacing that and you know these last two shows on Rome you could view as a little mini mini course on art and the city of Rome Scott asks what's some criteria for whether someone is taking their religion seriously I mean that's that's a it's a hard question I need to know whether somebody's taking their religion seriously I mean some of it is external manifestations of that religion are they going to church you know to what extent did they did they does their behavior they take seriously kind of the the the scriptures or the the restraints on how they behave you know in the Jewish religions fairly easy you can often tell how seriously someone is taking their religion by what they wear which is kind of weird but it's true but it that's an external manifestation of how they're going to live their life you know in Islam it's with women certainly it's the same thing if they're wearing a bokeh they're either taking their religious seriously or being forced to take their religious seriously in Judaism it's it's almost always voluntary at least for men but Christianity is more difficult because Christianity's of all the religions become is the most secularized but it's the extent to which they've they they you know internalize their religious assignments to the to the to the extent where they are doing things in their life because that's the right thing to do based on their religion that their religion is what is motivating them motivating them to to do the things that they actually engage in doing and sometimes it's hard to know the sincerity of somebody and what's motivating them it's harder psychologically with Christianity because it hides more effectively yeah I mean I think ultimately it's it's what motivates you to behave in the way they behave the extent that it's religion and the religious the religious dogma that that is determining or is the determining factor in how you behave and what you do and what you say and how how to that extent you'll be you're taking your religions seriously and I say most Christians you know don't don't explicitly although clearly the religion has shaped them but they don't explicitly um uh you know use their religion to guide their life it's more implicit it's more integrated into some of the values that they already are taking yeah Andrew says attitude towards sex is suddenly a an area where where religion plays a huge role Andrew says fixation on the negative I think that's right fixation of weaknesses of man you know the the fixation of the on the fact that man are of a weak of a flawed a sinful all of that is a manifestation of religion but again a lot of those could be subconscious they might not be in the conscious awareness of the person and in that sense taking it seriously taking it seriously assumes an awareness of what you're doing an awareness of what to do I think most people don't take their religion seriously most Christians don't take their religion seriously most Jews don't take their religion seriously that doesn't mean the religion doesn't have profound impact on them but I don't think today most of them take it seriously and I'm not sure even in the past they took it that seriously um they were too busy living they they didn't have time to take it seriously particularly in kind of the errors that we're talking about this is why you had to tell the stories and stuff this was a way of reminding them of this religion and their commitment to the religion and why they're being tacked so heavily and all of that but it's it's uh you know to take it seriously means it's it's it's consciously you're aware of it and it's guiding it's guiding your life now you know the evangelical movement takes its religion seriously and there's quite a quite a few Catholics but I think that the dominant number of Christians in America don't take their religion seriously and you can see that in the polls where they're saying they're not in the nomination oh they don't go to church they don't do this they don't do that it's not in their conscious awareness it's in the background it's shaped their soul without them even knowing it and and and and that's sad that's sad white asked is James O'Keeffe an example of how to fight woke no I don't think James O'Keeffe is an example of how to fight woke I don't think you know showing uh the hypocrisy are showing they don't really believe it is showing that the just powerless those are showing any of these things is the way to fight woke you know and I don't think it helps I don't think that changes anybody's mind I think the way to fight woke is there is to uh offer positive ideas and positive vision and a positive uh alternative uh to uh woke ideas and and woke is appealing to certain people because woke is trying in an awful way in a horror boy to address certain things that people believe are problems in society and if you want to fight it you have to present a positive alternative it's it's just like just showing the stupidity and the the the the hypocrisy of religion is not a way to fight religion the way to fight religion is to offer a positive alternative vision of a world a positive alternative set of values otherwise all you're doing is creating cynics and and you might be able to destroy this particular version of woke but what you're creating is the next version of woke Mark Thomas says worth researching origins and mystery religions I'm not particularly interested I'm not sure why it's interesting so I I don't think so but maybe Paul Azuz favorite painting wow that's hard much harder than sculpture certainly you know School of Athens is beautiful but it's it's not it's too um I don't know it's it doesn't connect on a personal level um Sistine Chapel is amazing um yeah I mean it's a tough one I have some paintings at home or posters of paintings at home that I really really love that come closer that I think I'm more personal that I can relate to in a personal way again the themes of the Sistine Chapel the stories the the the religionism the the biblical stories are less ones that relate to me I like like I like my David you know and there's a amazing sculpture Spartacus at the at the Louvre that I love I love these more strong strong you know clearly meant of action in the moment before a moment after action not not in the midst of it so while I love Bernini and appreciate him it's not my favorite so I I like that in painting as well but I'm trying to think I love some of the pre-Raphaelite paintings of the 19th century yeah I'd have to really think favorite painting there's so many paintings and yeah that's it's a tougher one that's a tougher one I'll think about it I also showed some paintings that I really love in one of the shows in the past that you might have seen that also constitute some of my favorite paintings or some of the paintings that I have in my home that I really love there's a beautiful painting of Judith after she's chopped off her enemies had just the power the strength the confidence I like paintings that portray that the same with sculpture I love paintings that portray feminine beauty again same with sculpture so there's strength and beauty those are the two characteristics that I love Paul Azuz the colors the colors the use of red I like the use of red as well I've got a I've got a painting by contemporary artists who I really like which is just red and black and it's gorgeous Picard who's his name is Picard he's a Spanish painter from Barcelona who's a contemporary he lives today Linda says I always enjoy your art and music talks thank you Linda thank you Lodrin Valdrin. Philip says would you say the high prevalence of child abuse and Christianity is fundamentally a result of its metaphysics oh god I mean fundamentally everything's a result of metaphysics I think it's fundamentally yeah I mean in the sense that you know it's a result of repression it's a result of your view of original sin it's a result of its the view of repentance that the judge is ultimately god and you can ask for forgiveness and therefore any sin you commit in this world big deal because you can ask for forgiveness and god will give it to you and god is the judge not reality not you not life it's the result of the entire system that views sex as somehow animalistic and terrible and and and horrific that I think maybe drives people with certain you know attitudes towards sex that then are further repressed and manifest themselves in child abuse but yes ultimately it's it's their horrible negative view of the world it's it's the this metaphysical view of a of a malevolent universe and of man as fundamentally malevolent that drives these things and of course they again their ability to whitewash sin get rid of sin by by by confessional and by a priest telling you to do 10 Hail Mary's I mean that's just that's stunning right and that that opens up the world to all kinds of sin and and this is this is about the cover up right why is this thing covered up it's because well everybody's a sinner what are we going to do you know do we're going to criminalize these priests we're going to do something horrible to the we need priests and everybody's a sinner so they sin what can you do everybody's a sinner I mean that attitude is just so disgusting and despicable cult says people have asked me if I'm going to run for public office but I think I'm less interested in that I think promoting a better culture is more important such as art and music what are your thoughts well I mean I think you know you have to do what you love doing I mean what's more important to whom to the future of mankind why do you care um it's changing the culture you know change the culture you need everything you need people who run for office who are good you need musicians and artists but where you're going to be more successful where you're going to have more impact will depend on your skills your talent your abilities your interests um the way you phrase the question is a non-egoistic way of phrasing the question the question is not who I shouldn't run for office because I won't have any impact the question is do you want to run for office is that interesting to you is is getting involved in the world of politics today of interest given how corrupt and disgusting and horrible it is and if what's it's going to take to change the world is going to change the culture art and music and things like that what kind of impact can I have do I in at the same time do I love art and music and culture and these things that I and can I be effective at them at doing them and what kind of art and what kind of music are really going to change the world so think about what you love what's important to you and then also objectively think about your skills your talents your abilities and what it's going to take but the end of the day the answer to what it's going to take it's going to take a lot you know the renaissance was a lot of people hundreds of people doing the work of the renaissance historians the philosophers to artists to social commentators to budding scientists to be very beginnings of of scientists to to people who were willing as aristocrats to fund all this and to and to promote it and and so it takes hundreds of people to really impact and change the culture in any meaningful significant way so you know so it's going to take people doing a lot of different things in other words all right last question apollo Zeus ideas outside of objectivism which are true oh lots of ideas outside of objectivism they're true I mean science is outside of objectivism it's true right art the greatness of michael angeles david is outside of objectivism it's true um yeah I mean most true ideas outside of objectivism I think that's true right objectivism is a philosophy it it deals with ideas in one realm it has implications for everything else but it deals in ideas in one realm in truths in only one realm objectivism is not the truth and who says senator josh haley has written a book on manhood knowing ways coming from I was still taken aback at the degree of altruism in his saint it is a man it is man's duty to make himself expendable and sacrifice to others thoughts oh yeah I mean josh holly is a real intellectual uh he is he's very smart he takes this catholicism super seriously and he truly believes in in this altruistic philosophy this is why I consider joth holly josh holly the most dangerous politician in america much worse than any of the anything the left has to offer he is a true what lennick peacock called an m2 politician he is the complete integration of christianity with a with a kind of americanism with a view of america with a view of power I think he is the real uh uh integrationalist catholic uh you know authoritarian as a catholic authoritarian view of government um and a real altruist philosophically so really really really bad uh bad guy so um yeah it doesn't surprise me that he thinks that it is man's duty to make himself expendable and sacrifice to others compare that to to ran's view of the purpose of life of man okay debba thank you debba $50 christian abuse of children includes copper punishment and other forms of abuse that are carried out regularly by parents to stamp out the child for sinful nature absolutely the self not just pre-sexual abuse I know from experience yeah no absolutely I I assumed the question was about sexual abuse but it doesn't have to be you're right um generally christianity as a as a negative attitude about playfulness about happiness about unrestrained kind of joy and unrestrained the children exhibit and christianity religion generally is about dogma it's about behaving in a particular way it's about doing the particular things that that you must do and and it's it's it's trying to put you into a straight jacket at all costs and it is unbelievably abusive to children uh and um and it all all of it initiates comes from the concepts of original sin I mean how and and the fact that you have to drive out sin from the child and the way to drive out sin is is by force it's by coercion there's no other way to drive sin out so but yes debba I I agree completely it's uh the abuses much more extensive the sexual abuses is but one element of a much greater regime of abuse inflicted on children by religion and it's not just christianity I mean I look at the I look at these you know little muslim girls and I think about the kind of life that they're gonna lead and the kind of repression that they're gonna have to suffer and I look at these little jewish children and it's just it's just it's just so I mean in the more religious style the more horrific it is so unbelievably sad and and horrific Richard says I don't like most modern art I don't like most modern art museums and notice fine art in high-end uh galleries could the best fine modern art reside mostly in private homes so I assume you're talking about fine art as as a representational art I mean objectively good art objectively it's not it could be that the the good fine art that's being produced today resides mostly in private homes I think that's absolutely right you know most you couldn't sell it oh it's very hard to find buyers you know but but they're just not a lot of great fine artists because there's just not a lot not a big market but yes there's probably some very good art in private homes uh that we don't know of because it's never been put out on market on the other hand the world in which we live today where there are galleries with this the internet you should be able to see more great fine art but and there's some it's not that there isn't any there's just not a lot given how many people they are on the planet and given how much art how much how many artists they used to be they were in the past great artists Robert says in capitalism how do you think people with down syndrome survived or live their life especially if they are strained on the environment strained on resources and they're unproductive and can't produce goods and services well I mean they only survive to the extent that other people are willing to help them survive and so if their family is willing to dedicated the resources to keeping them alive and to feeding them and to training them so they can have some kind of skill into adulthood so they can sustain themselves to some extent but that family continues to care for them into adulthood or if it's not the family maybe it's charity or or wealth a charity program developed but again it's only to the extent that they're going to be people willing to do it I think I think they typically are most families want to take care even if they're down syndrome child that they feel responsible for bringing the child into the world and they want to take care of it I think they'd always be charities that took care of these children but at the end of the day there's no duty so they'll only be taking care of it to the extent that they're people willing to do it and again this is and I know some of you are going to hate me for this but this is one more reason why I'm pro abortion not just not tolerative abortion pro abortion I think parents should have the ability to abort a child if they're not willing and not interested in in in devoting the resources to sustaining a child that's unproductive like a down syndrome child I think those children should be and we should have the option to abort them and I think having children is a big responsibility and and I'm also to the extent that we can genetically engineer children not to have down syndrome in the future I know there'll be a big ethical debate about it because some people object I think it's a good thing if we're going to engineer people not to have down syndrome so one of the benefits of modern medicine is we can tell this in advance and we can avoid it through abortion or one day we'll be able to fix it so yeah that's all right I think we'll call it a night my my voice is going all right thanks everybody it's late over here in Rome it's 20 to midnight I thanks everybody for joining I hope you like the show I'll see for the rest of the week when I can do shows but I'll try to do some shows during the rest of the week maybe do some news updates or do some more current event kind of stuff which I know many of you prefer but thanks everybody Barney asked well what about once they're born once they're born somebody has to take care of them if nobody's willing to take care of them they will die but somebody has to be willing to take care of them and usually it's the family if not the family it's charity and to the extent that the people willing to fund a charity that takes care about what children down syndrome they will survive to the extent that there isn't then and they can't take care of themselves as adults then they won't survive I'm pretty sure that it would be but but again I think the numbers of down syndrome children would be far lower thank you guys I will see you all later in the week bye everybody have a good night