Good morning, Mr. Norman. How are you? Well, can you just call me Norman? That would relax me.  We just started talking? Yeah. I came to UC in the late 70s, I think. I came as a head of what was then called Quantitative Analysis Department, now Business Analytics. I was head of that for five years, went back to the faculty for a few. Then in the early 80s, I went to the provost office, first as acting vice provost. Before I became vice provost, they asked me to be provost. I did that for almost ten years. In 94, returned to the faculty at a year leave. Used that year to build a program called the Blender on His Plus program, and undergraduate on his program. And the College of Business did that until I retired in 2002. I actually stayed around for another five years because the primary donor to the program wanted me to continue being involved until we got the program up and running. So finally retired, I guess, officially stopped going to campus pretty much around 2007-2008. And what was the Blender's plus program? What is it? What was the Blender on her plus program? You're asking me what it is? Yeah. It's an undergraduate on his program. Each student gets five-year scholarship in quiet co-op at Cooperative Education. Includes an overseas trip. They now do Europe, China, and South America. We initially started in Europe. The students have gone for four to six weeks. They spend one week with a university in that region, studying global business in the part of the world. It's actually a full semester. The first part of the semester is where they study the global business perspective from the U.S. perspective. Then when they go overseas, they get a chance to see it from the perspective of that part of the world where they are. After the academic program, they meet with companies. And we asked the companies to provide three things to the students. An understanding of what their strategy is for operating the business within their region and also within the world. Two, the opportunity to meet with ex-patriots. Some who have come from America and have stopped working in their area of the world. Others who leave that region of the world and come to America. Coming to the United States is actually more difficult than going overseas for reasons we could talk about. And the third thing is please make sure the students have an opportunity to see your company and product. What it is that you do is a product or a service. If we do 15 or so companies, I think the students get a pretty good understanding of what's happening in that region of the world from a business perspective. The program was designed jointly by faculty and business leaders. The business leaders were asked to identify what are the characteristics that make a business program outstanding. What does a student should know by the time they graduate? What are the important things to discuss? And a faculty committee to put together the academics. It's a little over 20 years old now and doing very well. And did some of the students that were in their Honors Plus program today work overseas too? Have you graduated? Our hope was, and I don't know if you want to comment, we talked about this. We wanted to attract the best students in the region to the program. For the region, that was inside 275. For us, it was like 100 mile radius, but we never really talked about that. Our hope was that 70% of the students would continue to work in the Cincinnati area. Because we thought it was important for the program to take predominantly students from the region who would stay in the region. I think we've done pretty well with that, about 30% stay. A number of them are with companies like Proper & Gamble, but they're working overseas. They're in Europe, they're in Russia, they're in South America.  In fact, Levandes Jones just came back. He was one of our early graduates. He was running a company in Africa. He was the University of Chicago College of Business Alumni of the Year last year. He started a company in Africa. It's almost like an Uber for farming equipment, where they provide short-term rentals for farming equipment. Started in Nigeria, now in seven countries. He is now back in the United States and working in the Cincinnati area.  There's some interesting stories from what the graduates have done. His is one of the most interesting. What other companies were already involved in overseas besides Proper & Gamble? Well, it goes on and on. Unilever, IBM. Pretty much their one. The students are being recruited all over the country now. Every year, as I said, our goals are 70% a year, but every year San Francisco, a number of companies in San Francisco, higher and regular basis. Charlotte, New York, Chicago. We have our loans all over the country, all over the world now. I don't know. When you figure 25 a year for 20 years, all of a sudden it's over 400 people up, 500 people out there. I can't keep track of them all I've been going through. Actually, one of the other nice things is Raquel Crawley, who's one of our early graduates. She's an accounting major, worked at P&G, then worked at one of the CPA firms. She's now back running the program for us, which is kind of neat that we have an alum actually running the program. Oh, nice. What are you most passionate about? Now, golf. In those days, you know, dependent. When you look at my career, it's very hard for me to answer because the early part of my career as a teacher and a researcher, in the middle of my career I was building a department, and then working at the university level, and then finally the honors program. And as I mentioned earlier, then went from that to where my son always started the company. So you have to tell me which stage of life you're asking about, and you ask my back. The thing I'm most proud of is the Honors Plus program. That has affected more lives positively than anything else I did, as far as I know. At least I can see the results of it. You know, some of the things you do as provost, it's so far removed from the students that you can't see the impact it has on individuals. When you're running an undergraduate honors program, every year you see amazing things happen. We're young people who probably wouldn't have had opportunities otherwise, not only having opportunities, but then you can follow their careers and see how well they've done. That's the thing I'm certainly most proud of, because it's had so much positive impact on so many lives. Did you like being a provost? I don't think anybody would like that, but you can imagine the span of control of 23 direct reports. The relevant word isn't like, I was challenged by it. It was an interesting stage of life where I had to learn a lot more about myself. I had no training whatsoever. Really, my degrees are all in engineering, even though I was working in a business college. I had no training to be anything like a senior vice president of a major university. So it was a learn as you go kind of thing, so it was challenging. I think we did some good things, but I don't remember a lot of times that I would write down, wow, that was a real joy. Why did you want to teach at the university? Boy, that all happened by mistake. My whole career is a series of unexpected opportunities that I took advantage of. Nothing was planned. When I graduated from high school, my dad was a house painter. The year between my junior year in high school and senior year in high school, and the junior years, my father said, Dad, son, what do you want to do when you graduate from high school? And I'd been working with him for five years. I said, well, Dad, I thought I'd go to work for you and take over the business. He said, Dad, it'd be wonderful. I spent that summer, 90 degree temperatures, painting the insides of closets with lead-based paint, which was ugly. At the end of the summer, he said, son, what do you think you want to do when you graduate? I said, Dad, I've been thinking about college, and that was my career counseling inside of closets. So that's how I ended up in high school, in college. I went to Northeastern, where I co-opped. A friend of mine who had about the same academic record as I did, had a scholarship, offered at MIT for his master's, and I said, well, if you can do it, I can. So I sent out to a number of places, Northwestern, offered me a scholarship, including a stipend to live on. I had a child by then.  There was a government program, National Defense Education Act, that was trying to build more people graduating into sciences. I did that. I got to the end of that, interviewed with companies and universities, and decided that I really wanted to teach and ended up teaching at Purdue. Then I went to Georgia Tech, where I started the PhD program in the area at Georgia Tech. Came to Cincinnati when they offered me a chance to build my own department. So that's how that department got started, and then after five years, I decided they needed somebody who had some new idea. I used up everything I had, and that's when I had a chance to go into the public office. So none of that was planned. It was a journey of seeing something, an opportunity in taking it. I'd like to say it was all planned, but I had these goals, and it was just not true. Did you do any outside research, besides university? I don't know what you mean by outside. I did lots of research. There's a faculty member, and I do consulting. Depending on how you define those terms, I did both of those jobs. Okay. What did you hope students took away from your class? Say again, please. What did you hope students took away from your classes? I don't understand the question. What did I hope to take away from my classes? What did you hope students took away from your classes when you taught? Hope students would take away. I'm sorry. You're fine. Boy, that's another interest. I taught some sections with 500 students in big auditoriums, and I just hope they'd survive. I hope that it was an introductory class to quantitative analysis with what they now call business analytics. What I hoped they would walk away with was an appreciation of how analytical tools could be used, what kind of data could be produced, and how business decisions could be based on that data. That's as much as I could hope for. There was no hope that they would learn how to do it in a class that size, but they could walk away with an understanding of what was possible so that they could use it with some guidance, but use it in their business careers. That was as much as I could hope for. At the senior and master's level, you're hoping you're developing the tools so they can go out and do the work at the PhD level, you're hoping to get them to the point where they can add to the tool base so that the field continues to grow. My generation was the first generation in that field. We were the first people to really start to try to analyze big data. Really, those are the stages you were hoping to develop, awareness, some ability to use, and then finally an ability to develop new tools. It would change depending on what class you're talking about. What was the hiring process when you came to UC? I got a call from an ex-student, Dave Anderson, his name, who was then the head of the... He graduated, he's got his PhD at Purdue, wanted to be... He basically said, thinking about building a new department up here, I thought you'd be the perfect person. I've recommended you to the dean, would you be willing to do it? I took a look at what was going on and said under the following conditions, I'd be willing to do it. They met those conditions and I came. So it wasn't much of a hiring process. They went after me and brought me. That gives me the way to say it. What were relationships like among your colleagues? Well, again, that's... I'm sure it's an unusual... There were two... Faculty actually there at the time. One did not get tenured. So when I came there, there were two. I knew one had been my student. And the other guy was a... Somebody I got to go to a lot of it very easily. As we built the department, I think it was a challenging situation for the faculty because I was pushing them to move out of a comfort level of just teaching and getting into publishing and developing sponsored research, which I thought was essential for the developer of the program. And we were adding one to two faculty every year. So it was a growing faculty. I think the fact that most of them stayed there for a long period of time meant that we did it in a way that helped meet their needs as well. And I believe the development grew very well. So I came out of the school. It was a working team. That's the best way to describe it. That's what we set out to develop. There was no one really in charge. It was just a group of guys who wanted... Actually, people, because they were a couple of females. We were just a group who wanted to make it happen. And we did. Did you feel about the administration during your time? Not a bit. I was the administration. As a department head and faculty member, I was grateful for the opportunity to develop the program. Pleased that they honored their commitments from a resource perspective. And I think just grateful to let us develop that program without a lot of external complaint. Virtually, we were free to develop the way we thought was proper, which I thought was very fortunate. You'd have to ask somebody else how they felt when I was there. I mean, did you like that freedom? Oh, yeah. I think it's essential in the university. I think there has to be some understanding of what the university is, what it's about, what its priorities are, where it's headed. But beyond that, within the research, mainly what you can do from the perspective, from the administrative perspective, is set directions. Where are we headed? Where do we want to get? Talk about how do we get there? And then, you know, provide the resources that it's possible to do it. Hardest thing in a public university, maybe private too, but I don't know. Hardest thing in a public university is how resource restrictive it is. Every time the state takes a budget cut, you get hit. And so you're constantly fighting that. When I took over as provost, about 40% of the revenue stream was subsidy from the state. About 50% was tuition. Nine years later when I left, it was down to around 25% subsidy. So there's a 15% cut. The academic budget at that point in time was somewhere between 300 and 400 million that kept growing. Well, if you take a 15% cut of 300 million, it's 45 million. And you look at it for a while and you say to yourself, 97% of the academic budget is salaries. So where do you get those budget cuts? Either you replace the funding or you're taking pretty severe hits on people. There's no other alternative when 90% of the budget is salary. So now that wasn't true in places like administrative services where they have trucks and things like that. You look at a faculty, look at that budget, it's people. There's small parts of it that travel, small parts of it, there's predominantly people. So every time there's a budget cut, it hurts. It hurts being people. And that was the hardest thing by far the hardest. And I guess as a provost you had to make tough decisions as far as You have no choice. I almost said something you probably don't want to think about. It's not good. Were there incidents or events that were handled in a way that kind of disappointed you? I know you mentioned budget cuts. You're looking at a 30-year journey there are lots of things that disappoint you.  Other times it's a dean that you thought would really be great and turns out not to be. Other times it's finding that there's been sexual harassment or racial discrimination that you have to deal with.  And then you have to deal with it. And how did you deal with those situations? Very carefully. I had a excellent person a female who was able to how can I say this she was tough. She could go out in those kinds of situations and because I would end up being a final decision maker I pretty much had to stay out of the issue of what happened that had to be done by someone else because eventually this case is going to be presented predominantly to me and then I discuss it with the president depending on what it was I'd get the affirmative action people in I'd get the human resources people to keep people but at the end of it it's going to be my decision. We'll sit as a group and discuss it but it ultimately is my decision so I can't also be involved in the investigation. And I had a person who did those investigations and she was excellent and I think without her it would have been a different story. I think we handled most of them well I look back on it now I see what's happening in today's environment and you go back and say what was the environment like then cases where you probably would now refer to the police who just made darn sure the person out of the university and it was done in a way that that person would never teach again at any other university but there was no thought at those times to and then you got two lawyers sitting there we have our lawyer, the person involved has their lawyer even they weren't talking about this is something that should go to the police but I would guess maybe 15 or 20% of those cases now would have been referred to the police that's how much it's changed every time I read about one of these or hear about one of these instances and you look at it and say did we really miss it by that much then I think back on where we were and what was being expected I don't know that's the one thing I spent time thinking about because I don't know I don't know we should have gone further in some of those cases or not even today sitting here I can't tell you about I've resolved that I just don't know I can't differentiate between what's happening now and where we were at that point in time and how did you see respond to your needs like research and money or grants or even salary well that's a lot of different questions that was research when I took over as provost I wanted to at least maintain the quality of the undergraduate programs I thought the undergraduate programs were really in pretty good shape and our goal was to continue to build them to maintain them make sure they stay stay good and when you look in those days college conservatory music and DAAP by far the outstanding engineering, undergraduate engineering if you took the three and said which ones can you put nationally compete nationally, those were the three that you could say yep we compete nationally on those business, education were in a stage where there was hope you could probably develop them at that point in time so there was a goal of maintaining and developing excellence where we already had it and then because of resource restrictions we were able to build everything it's just impossible so then the question became what else do you try to build and my goal initially was to build a graduate program in engineering especially in sponsored research build the science programs in arts and sciences especially the research and build the two key professional programs for the region which in my mind were business and education I think we did real well in engineering I think we did real well in education I think we did okay in business until recently I think the last 10 or 15 years business has finally gotten to undergraduate where I thought where I hoped it would be so there were some successes and some that weren't but you set those you set those goals you set those goals and you make sure the deans understand because you can't have a dean of a college where you're saying look all I want you to do is hang on the best you can because we don't have enough resources to put everywhere and we're not going to put it into your college and they need to know that when they come in they need to understand that's how it's going to be because you can't bring them in make these promises and then walk away so it's much easier to recruit the places we were planning to build than it was in the places you were but we set some priorities I think we I think we did a good job building graduate programs and I think education did came a long way and I think business is getting better but again the idea is in my mind at least was to set some goals and directions and then hire people who could take you there sometimes you succeeded and sometimes you didn't I don't even remember the question was that at all relevant you said research Juan was there like those that they you know respond to your needs well like you know trying to get you know sponsors trying to get technology well but that's all wrapped up in the graduate programs if you're bringing in sponsored research you're on the frontiers of what's going on Dean Papadakis that's another interesting story Taki came in he was tough as nails very demanding he went off to be president he did a great job for us before he came here from Greece for his master's he did his master's here in his PHD in Michigan and he came originally from Greece when he came back when he came here as a master's student there was a first year that the fraternities and sororities were back on campus so the headline of the student newspaper was UC welcomes greeks to campus he thought it was him give you an idea where the z-go was how has faculty changed every time? I don't know how to answer that you know the last I've been out for so long now I don't know what the faculty are like anymore in my time period more emphasis on graduate programs more emphasis on what they did for research and whether or not it was something we could hope to get sponsorship for things that in the past were mainly concerned about undergraduate education were less important became more important so you need to keep a balance you can't have I used to tell students all the time the best of the universities in the United States are not necessarily the best places to get your undergraduate degree if you've got faculty that are so focused on research and publication they're probably not paying the attention they need to the undergraduate program so you're trying to recruit people who have a balance who understand the need to have excellent undergraduate programs but also have the ability and interest to build their graduate research in their publication so you're looking for that balance you're not looking for the best scholar you've changed the world you're looking for a person who can come in you'd love to have him too but what you're really looking for are people who can contribute across the board would you say you have that balance that you see I think there were if I were to summarize it in a typical department you had a cadre of folks who were primarily undergraduate oriented you had a cadre of folks who were only graduate and research then you had folks who cut across together the idea that the unit has to be in balance not every individual so again, you're building a team in my view the right department an outstanding department is an outstanding team that works together to make sure all those goals are met doesn't mean that every individual does it it means that together as a team and that's how it should be I believe in academia whether it is now or not I can tell you about the Honest my linear Honest program but beyond that, I'm completely out of touch with the university have you ever stayed in touch in the university? other doing fundraising for the Honest program no how often do you do fundraising? well, it's pretty much continual it's not every day but I meet regularly with a couple key donors who have become my advisors I meet on a regular basis with whomever is directing the program at that point in time and we talk about what's happening talk about who else we can approach to try to get some funding the key once the program gets going the key is to have alumni who are willing to contribute the Catholic high schools do that extraordinarily well we were just learning how to do that I think that's happening with the Honest I think the alums have been very loyal to the program and they're not making big donations but you know you pick up $100,000 a year from the number of students and it adds up and you need to have enough to accomplish a piece and do you think you did a pretty good job of doing that of keeping the alumni together I, no I thought you were right I mean the first three or four years if you go back on my description of where it was I left after about five or six years when the program started Jerry Ricketts took over and she's the one she was on the faculty committee that developed the academic program she came in as the academic advisor let me say it that way she was a ten year faculty member she is a ten year faculty member came in as the academic advisor while I was out building support for the program and then when I left she took over as director she did an absolutely outstanding job building the program getting students involved developing the long term commitment we very much wanted students to be involved on campus so when they came in we strongly my belief students who get involved love the university probably don't and the whole key to enjoying your undergraduate experience is getting involved doing the kinds of things you guys are doing right now every year there's one of the students we know there's 20 students 25 and what's happened over time is the program evolved as the senior junior senior students the people who have been in the program for two or three years take the freshman under their wing and encourage them to get involved and we weren't clever enough to figure that out but the students figured it out and so what's happened and there's continual commitment of students to give back to the university and the community while the air is undergraduate and then you see it continue and not only are they continuing to give back to the program but we get students all over the place who are giving back to the communities and that was one of the things we wanted to build and we didn't figure out how to do it but they did so yeah I think that happened but that only was because of me I think Dr. Ricketts really did an outstanding job she deserves at least as much credit as I do for the program and in fact if you can't get her you should she hasn't volunteered you should look her up J-E-R-I R-I-C-K-E-T-T-S she would give you a different a little different picture on that program and what it's done a week ago President Pinto a month ago President Pinto's person called and said would you come in and talk to the president sure so we had lunch and basically said I wanted to thank you for developing the Liner Honest Plus program you talk about how much visibility to add in the business community how important that was to the university I thought that was really neat and I said you really need to bring in Jerry too because she's the one that took it over I got her started that's true I got the funding she's the one that made it I paused and the reason I did is I am absolutely convinced that I could not have built that program if I had not been provost so he asked me am I glad I was provost all other things he asked because he gave me the entrees I needed to Procter & Gamble who gave us money to get cash to get the program started who gave us an endowment so we could keep the program going we needed both gifts we wanted to give scholarships the first year so we had that money to support that and then we needed to have money to continue between those two that got it there was enough to get us started and make it happen I don't believe I could have had access or credibility if I hadn't been provost and had a chance to meet me and see what was happening at the university when I was provost a lot of things that happened that were completely I was going to say outside of my control and I think they were there but certainly within what happened to me that made that happen it wasn't just that there was a faculty member who would decide to do it it was that Cuminuth career that was sitting there that I think was what made it happen I am convinced that it wouldn't exist if I hadn't been provost so you take that you put it together with two people and you thought it was a great idea to have this kind of a program in Cincinnati and had the resources to make it happen and then I was blessed to have Jerry on my side developing the academics well I went out and developed the rest of it and did uh again a team I mean did the honors program have any effect on the city itself like the city of Cincinnati itself you know all over the city that in positions they probably would not have been I mentioned Lavandes earlier Lavandes came out of Walnut Hills he did not do particularly well on a on a standard ice test I could take standard ice test for the rest of my life and never do well I just don't it's a different story Lavandes didn't but he had been in government at Walnut Hills and just all kinds of signals about this young man and his potential for leadership and my daughter who at the time was working at Procter & Gamble I think she's a really good judge of people I said Karen would you please go interview this young man for me and see what you think and she came back with you've got to admit and we did not if you look at a standard ACT score has to be 30 or above I mean it wasn't there his undergraduate grade point average was 3-point something but what you saw was a young man who just had all kinds of potential so we didn't build the program in the classic honors sense we were looking for people you don't have to be a genius to be a business leader I'm sorry you need a good government sense you work with people you're not a nuclear physicist it's a different world he just had all the attributes he wanted that young man he worked at AC Nielsen bases went from there stayed with them when he graduated went to China to Beijing where he set up their Chinese operation set up in three cities married a Chinese gal that he met while he was there he left there to go back to to go to the University of Chicago got his MBA and I mentioned earlier that last year he was the alumni of the year for the business school at the University of Chicago graduated from Chicago went to DuPont and merges and acquisitions then developed with another couple this program in Africa with the farming equipment agricultural equipment the farmers there can't afford to rent that equipment so where do you get the money USA foundations you've got to raise that money from someone interested in making this change happen in Africa he did that Gates Foundation Gates Foundation gave money to make this happen he left because his parents are ill and he needs to be home to help them he's back here when he got back he had offers all over the place he's working with one of the major equity financing firms in town he's a young man I believe if he hadn't had that opportunity probably would have gotten into undergraduate school but I don't think would have had connections and opportunities to do what he did and I look and he's been an outstanding alum for us he's done a wonderful job for himself and you look at what he's done and he's made important contributions if that company can, they're in seven countries now I think I mentioned they started in Nigeria and they've added I think six others might be five, I think it's six anyway it's growing and you look at that and that's going to impact this is a young man that I don't know if he would have had those opportunities if he would have looked back on them that's what I think the program has done I think it's taken people I would say each class there's four or five young people that probably wouldn't have had that opportunity otherwise and because of that have gone on to do pretty remarkable things okay so it looks like it definitely has so yeah I feel awfully good about it and it's neat when I tell Ben Jones as a political commentator he's still the band does but anyway when Ben came back in town one of the first things he was calling he said can we have a lunch and talk and it's that kind of thing that makes my life good yeah I think I think the program did well that definitely sounds like it sounds like a tremendous impact on people's lives and giving them opportunities that they would have I think there's some of the young people because of the family situations they had probably had the same kinds of opportunities when you see the people coming out of the less fortunate situations where money is an issue where they're the first I was the first person to go to college in my family I know what that's like the first person to go to college it's a different setting and having that opportunity for them I think makes a big difference yeah how has the campus changed since you started at UC physically it's different President Steig almost the whole time I was Brobo's Joe Steig was president he and the vice president of finance were really focused on building the physical nature the buildings the grounds etc I fought them half half the time I was fighting them because I wanted those resources for academia I was on I had nothing to do with the medical center one of the first things I requested was get somebody else to run college medicine nursing I don't know anything about that I don't want to know anything about it let's get another provost let that person run everybody thought I was nuts because I was shrinking the size but it made no sense for me I wanted to have some of those resources for the academic side and I think the tension between us made it happen because I kept fighting hard enough so they got sufficient resources to do what needed to be done they kept fighting hard enough that they got what they needed to get to physical campus and I think together those two things have made a big change so I look at it and I would say continued growth and the excellence of the undergraduate program areas where the graduate programs have really become quite good and then the physical campus itself those are the things I would say how does it feel about this change that you saw I think overall it's been very positive yeah I don't know remember you're going back to the 1970s I mean in the 1970s it was a commuter school it's pretty much a residential campus now I'm not saying they're not commuters but much more likely that students are why is that important because that's when they get involved if you're coming into class and going home you're less likely to get involved with what's happening on campus than if you're living there now I'm not saying after the freshman or sophomore year living off campus but I mean the first year or so I think it's pretty important on campus become a part of what's happening there so yeah I think it's changed a lot and I think for the better okay how have UC's priorities shifted since you started we've talked about that a number of times do you think UC is more of a research university than it is I think some of it is no university no care if it's Harvard or Stanford no university is uniformly good everywhere you have programs that are very good and you have some that are okay you have some you kind of look at and say why in the world are we even doing this now the number of those in the last category are much less at a place like Harvard and Stanford than they are at a place like Cincinnati but you can't look at any campus and say gee the best city planning department is at Harvard the best math department the best English department no they're going to be not in uniform as well different levels of quality I think the number of programs that are very good at the University of Cincinnati has increased I think there's still some that need to continue to grow but I'm out of touch when I left I know that was true I think it's still true from what I see I don't think we have the resources to build excellence everywhere you know I don't want to get into naming examples because that's to nobody's benefit but I think that's still true but you see on the upswing absolutely there's no question if you go back to where we were in 74 and where we are now it's a very different university and I think you see it all the signals are there much more of a residential campus the amount of sponsored research is going way up etc our Ph.D. students are going to the best universities to teach I had graduate students who went to Virginia to LSU to Wharton School of Penn you know that didn't happen in the 90s by the time I left it was starting to happen so we had areas where the research was sufficiently strong and noticeable they were out to high-rise students to build their programs and I think that's a at the graduate level that's the real test I imagine students going to the best companies the best companies here recruiting and master students and are the best universities recruiting your Ph.D. students right? you feel really proud of that since you made it? I mean I'm glad I played a role in it but the reality is if you look at engineering it's Papadakis I gave him his head I hired him and said go get him I'll support you the best I can but you got to make it happen I got 20 other places I got to worry about if you're really good I don't have to worry about you I can turn my attention to someplace else and Luke Castinello he was the Dean of Education was the same kind of thing he was the first African-American Dean I think of College of Education wonderful he left us, went to Georgia after a while you can't it's like a revolution the person who leads the revolution probably shouldn't lead the country we have different traits you need Lou and Taki were builders and I think they each did a wonderful job because they were so good I didn't have to do much I feel like it happened but I don't take credit necessarily for it I think I take credit for putting people in place and providing the kind of environment within which they could succeed but you have to give an awful lot of the credit to the demons that made it happen the thing I'm most proud of is Lina Ron's boss when I I've told my kids I'm 82 years old I don't know how much longer I got my wife just bought a car that she'd been leasing and the finance guy said do you want a 10 year extended warranty they said that on me or the car I'll be 92 you'll get a 10 year warranty that's nuts that's easy but you just hope it's going to last and you feel good but the thing I feel most I look at the young people and I can feel it I can touch it I can shake their hand I can give them a hug I can hear what they're doing that doesn't happen in the other places that I was involved in so the thing I'm obviously and the rest of it I say I was in a position where I could help make it happen that's good and then on this plus I want to continue to say Dr. Ricketts is the other half of the key I provided her the opportunity she built the academic side she built the academic side I definitely got that again I hope so I don't know that she's a maritime I know she's retired I don't know that they've actually gone through the maritime process yet but you definitely should talk to her and talk to her about her role in it I think that would be the other half of the story and it's an important story because the president one of the things he I don't know if I mentioned this or not but one of the things he said to me is every place he goes people talk about that program people in the business community so it's clearly had an impact and she deserves at least half the credit okay what else would you tell me about that you hadn't talked about before the University of Cincinnati was the first and only place I worked at faculty union all the other administrators looked at that union as something that was preventing them from doing what they thought they needed to do and it wasn't pleasant believe me I took my first vacation in eight years my wife and I went off for a month literally first vacation in eight years and we went off for a month we just did a driving trip we're from New England originally up through Canada came down through New England just to get away the whole time I was gone the faculty union were writing letters about our provost who didn't care enough to stay around the campus my mind totally unfair their mind but when I look at it and I look at what they have done to help make sure faculty get equitable treatment when it comes to salary that they get fair treatment when it comes to promotion and tenured decisions the other side of that picture is equally important having been a faculty member longer than I was an administrator and having seen some of the libertarianism that was taking place before if you go back when the university started it was pretty much under the control of the president he decided what he wanted and he did it having that counterbalance just as the counterbalance between myself and the president when it came to academics versus physical plan the counterbalance between the faculty and the administration the faculty union gave them a voice it wasn't always the voice I thought should be there because the more active faculty and research were not going to be in the union they were going to be off doing their thing so the voice represented a segment of the faculty to be easy to ignore otherwise I think it was extremely important and I worry about it in today's room because I see so much stuff going on anti-union, anti-this, anti-that but what I consider to be hate politics going on at the national level I worry about it because you've got the people who are in the weakest position need the strongest representation and that faculty union provided that so I guess that's the other thing I would say I think that overall you net it all out the union was a positive thing okay that's what Dr. Kretschmer said it was like the union probably like one of the syndicate events that happened that you see was overall positive I believe so you can argue you can argue with the other side I mean you definitely can but I think overall it was necessary I think you answered all my questions is there anything else you want to talk about or pretty much drained me I hope I was coherent oh you were great I definitely appreciate it my pleasure


Rhaiddoi'n gweithio, mae'n fawr i'r ddweud i'r gweithio'r projekty y Llyfrgell Llyfrgell, sy'n gweithio'r cyllid. Rwy'n Siobhan Cullen, yng Nghymru Llyfrgell Llyfrgell Llyfrgell, mae'r collig Brona Hefron. Felly, mae'n ymdweud yw'r anodd newydd, sy'n gweithio'r cyllid ymdweud. We have collaborators working with us on this and other third level institutions, namely Larry Donnelly and then you and David envoy and David caboará drawing with us on this and we also have a following agreement is being made byhammer technology to Critical Energy. Unfortunately they can't beнымácwr hear today due to example,, commitments. So apologies for that. We're also fortunate enough to have the Law Society of Ireland acting as consultants and we also have another external consultant, which is Georgetown University in Washington I'll tell you more about those later. The title of our project then is Street Law, and it's a module to enhance the transferable skills of law students. It's a digitally supported module, and it involves community legal education, which is targeted at second level students. So I'll just tell you very briefly a little bit about community legal education. It's essentially law students bringing the law to the community. It's street law is an internationally recognised methodology, but this is the first time it's been trialled at undergraduate level in Ireland. It's very much an interactive methodology. It's based on problem-based learning and an emancipatory methodology. Again, I'll speak more about that a little later. In this case, the target audience are second level students, and so far as the third level students are concerned, it's about learning through teaching for them, and it's about enhancing their understanding of the law and their role within it through experiential learning. Whilst simultaneously providing a service to the community, it's also a pipeline project in the sense that second level students are the target audience. So that's what the project is. I'll now move on to tell you what we have done in the first six months of the project. Not necessarily in chronological order exactly, but one of the important aspects of this was the branding of us, and there are really two reasons why we thought this branding of it, rather, why we thought this was very significant. It is an internationally recognised methodology. It originated in the States. It does exist as a method of teaching law in the UK and in other parts of Europe, and we wanted this to be uniquely Irish, as it's the first time it's been trialled at undergraduate level here, and we wanted to have national impact going forward. So we're showcasing today a version of our logo for the Street Law project. We've tended this to designers, and it's with the designers. So this is our version of it thus far, but it's based on the Irish road sign. We wanted it to do two things, really. We wanted it to be uniquely Irish, so we've included the Irish version of Street Law, and we wanted it to be directed at the target audience, the second level students, and be something that would provoke their interest, and the transition year coordinators, who are the people who bring these projects into the schools. And our tagline, then, is law students in the community. So that's a version of what will become the Street Law logo. The digital infrastructure is something that it's difficult to capture, I suppose, out of all of these projects, the amount that we have done in a very succinct way. But we started with acquiring the domain streetlaw.ie, which is now registered through HEANet. And we've done a lot of research on the appropriate digital platform to use. And as you'll be aware, there are lots of different opinions as to what's the best, and in some ways it's horses for courses. But I suppose the two things that were important for us were that it's user-friendly, particularly as it's going to be used for the third level students to interact with the second level students, and that it is resource-friendly going forward. So ultimately, we've decided to use Blackboard to support the delivery in terms of the third level students, and then the website streetlaw.ie, which is currently under construction, will have embedded within it a WordPress blog, which is one of the ways that the third level students will interact with the second level counterparts. They'll create collaboratively a blog based on the law that's being taught and learned. It's ultimately going to be open access, and we'll serve as a repository of streetlaw lesson plans going forward, because the ethos of streetlaw is very much about sharing resources. And that's certainly true internationally, and has been our experience of working with our international consultants. We've acquired laptops for the students to use, going into the schools, and are in the process of acquiring e-books in terms of the streetlaw manuals, which are coming from the states. So, as was said with the previous project, this is very much at the development stage, and is the work plan for our next six months going forward is to put this platform in place. To talk about the sort of two aspects of the collaboration that we have ongoing, the collaboration with our third level counterparts, our partners, and with our consultants, has been a very positive engagement.  We have had regular meetings and have a steering committee ourselves and our counterparts in those institutions, and that's vital to the buy-in to the project going forward. I can't emphasise enough how important the external consultants have been, the Law Society of Ireland, who have piloted streetlaw in Ireland, but at professional training level, and it's not an accredited modulus extracurricular. They have been very generous in terms of sharing resources. They've invited us to streetlaw exemplar classes that they've run, and they've shared resources and mock trial materials that we intend to use going forward. Georgetown, in Washington, who invented streetlaw 40 years ago, have also been extremely helpful. They've invited us to attend their orientation clinic, and they're coming to us and bringing their faculty and their students in January to run the orientation clinic for our accredited module pilot. This, we hope, is going to be the beginning of an interesting and fruitful collaboration going forward. We've also developed interesting links cross-border with the University of Ulster and with Queens, who've both been involved in streetlaw, either at postgraduate or at extracurricular level, and they've been extremely helpful too, and because of where we're situated geographically, that's another interesting collaboration for us to explore. The second level collaboration is the cross-sectoral aspect of this, and the enthusiasm from the schools, I have to say, has been unequivocal. We have two schools on board to run our pilot, but we could have had many, many more. The interest from the schools, from the transition year coordinators, and from the students themselves has been immense. We're essentially running two iterations of streetlaw this year, so just to explain that briefly, in September we're going to run a small pilot. This is not going to be accredited. We're going to be using a small number of student volunteers who've just come through our civic engagement module, and they're going to pilot it on the basis of four classes to be run in each of the two schools that have signed up to the project. Once that pilot is then evaluated, we're going to run the accredited module in January, which is where Georgetown are going to come and run the orientation clinic. Streetlaw essentially requires a two-day orientation clinic, as they call it, which is a team building and an introduction to the methodology for the lecturers, the students, and everybody involved in the project. For our pilot in September, the Law Society are coming to run that for us, and then for our accredited module in January, Georgetown are going to do that. We've been involved in a number of meetings, attending the secondary schools, getting a feel for how they run, and working out the logistics with the transition year coordinators in terms of the number of sessions, the size of the groups, who's going to be in the room, and all of those kind of issues, which are very important if it's to be done right. This is to culminate then in a competitive mock trial between the two schools, which will take place at the end of their streetlaw sessions. That will take place on campus in LYIT. Our partner institutions will be running the accredited streetlaw module simultaneously in January 2017 on a similar basis in their own institutions. At this stage, we are preparing to deliver the pilot in September. As I've already said, the Law Society have kindly offered to come and facilitate the orientation. This will be important for academic staff development and for the third level students to be inducted in the streetlaw methodology. As I've already said, we've met with the transition year coordinators. We're now in the process of recruiting students. The demand for the streetlaw project is going to exceed the number of places we have available, so it's going to be a competitive application process. The students are very, very keen to get involved in this. The logistical issues such as garden clearance and child protection issues are underway. In a nutshell, we're going to have a teacher in the room during the sessions and a member of academic staff in order to cover those issues, but garden clearance is required. At the moment, our students who will be involved in the pilot are rehearsing the lesson plan development with peer assessment, which has proved to be, I think, a very fruitful exercise for them. Just lastly, before I hand over to Brona, the emancipatory nature of streetlaw is something that we're working with the students on. What I mean by that specifically is that the target audience choose the areas that they want to learn about and they very much run the development of how the lesson goes. For example, if they wanted to learn about the law that governs their education, they would identify that as an area they want to learn about, and then through a process of discussion, they would identify the issues, the potential problems, and how they think the law should be shaped in order to deal with those issues. So it's not a case of feeding them the answers. It's very much an interactive methodology, which is why the training is required. At the moment, we're very happy that we're in a good place in terms of preparing for the pilot in September. We've researched and planned and are looking forward as are the students to piloting this. So I'll hand over to Brona who's going to talk to you about national impact and evaluation. A lot of what I'm going to say initially is going to reiterate what Siobhan has said in the context of it being a national programme. The first feature of this for us is the collaborative aspect. Siobhan has alluded to the collaboration between the project partners. Clearly, we really need to enhance or to maximise the potential of this project. We need to have that collaboration across the board with all law departments and we're going to promote the pilot in the sense of publicising it and again publicise the whole street law initiative in January when we run it off then and hopefully that will engage other third level institutions. We have the international engagement where we have Georgetown coming in January and we've also had interest from Eastern European countries as well in coming to that because it's clinical legal education is taking off there simultaneously. The interaction between the third and second level educational centres as Siobhan has said, the response has been immense. We went to a career's advisory fair to promote it and the response was the transition year coordinators, they need something in that legal socio-political space and this kind of programme meets it so they would love to get hold of it. The professional educational sector, the law study around board is consultant and they've been really positive and very engaging and very helpful. It's an interesting space however because the legal services regulation act was passed at the end of December and until now legal education has been entirely the domain of the professional bodies. That provided for the establishment of an authority which is going to review legal education with the view to opening it up. In the UK for example the universities provide professional education, that's not the case here. So that leaves an opening and it certainly will make third level bodies a lot more interested in legal education but it's specifically in the act refers to reviewing the provision of clinical legal education. So it's going to make it a very interesting space in the sense that universities and institute of technology are going to be far more interested in expanding into that area and the professional bodies to be fair to them are going to become a little bit more cautious about being so positively engaged because it might cut into their territory. Benefits for third level students, well obviously these are I suppose one of our main priorities if not the main priority and our first priority for them, our benefit for them is that it creates the social aware lawyer, that they realise that the purpose of education is to serve the community and that it's not just the mercenary street lawyer that you might see on TV, that it's a much broader concept and so that's certainly for us that whole civic engagement, community engagement is a very important part of it. Equally though they're going to enhance their transferable skills by running these programs it's not based on substantive law, it's very much application of it and between preparing and leading out of street law lesson they will have to organise plan, translate very substantive law into very easy accessible language so their own transferable skills will be greatly enhanced and obviously increase their employability and because they have to do this ultimately on their own we're hoping that it will develop their own belief in their capacity to do it and that as they leave law graduates they'll be more competent personally as a result. Academic staff development, well this is a move in terms of the traditional delivery of law programmes, yes we use problem based learning but it's very much desk based taking it out into the interactive environment using a digital infrastructure will be challenging but the way that's going to be supported is to lead out staff initiatives and I have to say the teaching and learning forum has provided an awful lot of seminars in the digital space which are being used and will continue to be used to enhance the digital skills in terms of the interactive nature we've been focusing on getting staff to attend interactive workshops for example we're just back from an experiential learning workshop and we're trying to develop that type of teaching in the law department which will be a challenge because it's certainly not the traditional. Clinical legal education, apart from the regulatory changes there's a clinical legal organisation of which we are members all the participating partners are members and it has been decided to establish a website for it to promote clinical legal education generally. Now I'm conscious I'm going to be going on speed here because of the time constraints. The first point up there is just echoing the whole community engagement aspect of it and what we have, the street law pedagogy virtually endorses all of those things that are set out in the campus engage charter so which came first it's hard to know but they certainly complement each other hugely. All of those are very ideological we have to make it easy to implement and the digital infrastructure is essential there. If it's not easy to replicate in other institutions it will be too challenging for them to do so and that's probably our lasting legacy is that we give something out to all the third level institutions that they can easily engage in this type of interactive learning. The last thing that we were to look at is the evaluation and sustainability and this was certainly one of the things we felt we had to go back to the drawing board on arising from the panel's comments late last year. In terms of evaluation we have now three stages to this we had anticipated and this basically is going to be an accredited module in 2017 so it needs to meet academic standards and obviously that level of rigor is useful because it means that it has to be up to speed and at this stage the module has been drafted it's gone through the early stages of our academic council no major queries at all in relation to it it's now going into the final stages with the export report is due this week we don't expect any difficulties there and it should hopefully pass with no difficulty. In terms of the run out of the programs very much it's going to be a work in progress forever because that's the nature of street law that you do it, you reflect, you redo it and so on cyclically. We always intended to do this and we want all of the stakeholders involved to participate and we're going to be going to our collaborating partners for their feedback after the pilot. We're equally going to go to the academic staff and mentors involved. Crucially we're going back to the third level students who we had asked to participate in identifying what skills they needed. We're going to do a similar survey then but they will be assessed using reflections and between the two of those we're going to have a huge amount of data generated both quantitative and qualitative which will really test the validity of street law as a pedagogic method and we're going to go to the recipients as well, the teachers and the students out in the schools to see what they feel values the program. That's going to generate a massive amount of information and this is an extra which we've added in and we realise we have to do we're not going to be able to read all of that stuff so we've gone and during the last six months we put in an application to get a research master's student who is going to come and we've been successful in that application and they're going to basically collate, digest, work with all of that information and ultimately their question is going to be street law in Ireland, what works and why so we're going to do all the groundwork, we'll be able to feed them this information and hopefully they'll be able to feed back on it so again that will also give us a way to publicise and disseminate the information earned on it and that's pretty much where we're at. Thank you very much for listening and apologies for the speedy ending and thanks for the opportunity.


Hello, our citizens. My name is Chris. I'm a brain education instructor from Rolling Hills, California and welcome to our five element key gong series. Five element key gong is refers to an ancient Eastern philosophy of harmonizing the energy of our body of our mind for our best health, our best well-being. And today we're going to focus on the water element. So the water element has to do with our kidneys and our bladder. So go and bring your feet a little bit shoulder-width apart. So you're going to place your hands in your lower back. I'm going to turn so you can see your kidneys rest right under your root pitch here. So you can start to rub the lower back here a little bit. So the water energy is good for purifying is for cleansing. So the meridians come up from the feet. So we want to imagine the energy is flowing up from the earth into our body. Then our bladder is really in the low abdomen just below the kidney line. So you can come down there a little bit. You can rub that space. So bringing the focus in to this area. So we want to start to set our mind there. So through our two basic flows and holding posture we are going to purify. We're going to cleanse the water energy. We're going to let go. We're going to build our overall energy and then we're going to grow the energy we want to harmonize our water energy. Good. So you can kind of relax. You can relax your shoulders. So we're going to start with a little bit gentle tai chi opening. Inhaling up and exhaling down. So you want to feel like the wave of energy is coming up from your soles, up your spine, lifting your arms and falling. So as you come, as you inhale this chest will lift. The tailbone will drop and as you exhale the chest will sink. The tailbone will tuck. So inhale and exhale. So we want to feel that rhythmic flow of energy coming up and down through our spine. Good. Inhaling up and exhaling down. Feel the energy flowing up through your body and down one more time here. So now to cleanse and purify the water. We're going to take our right hand, place it on our lower back, right on our kidney space where you saw before. With my left hand I'm going to use it as a scoop. So as I inhale, I'm going to bend, I'm going to scoop, like I'm lifting water up. And as it comes up, I'm going to pass my hand across my body. Good. And then I'm going to scoop again. So what we're going to visualize is that I'm picking up some water and then it's pouring down my arm, rinsing away my stress, my tension. So oftentimes with water energy, the focus is fear. That's the negative energy associated with water element that's not harmonious. So we want to feel like we're scooping and we're rinsing the fear, let it drip off your body. Good. So scooping. And through the breath, you can inhale on the way up and exhale, letting go of that fear. Inhaling up and exhaling. We're going to do one more on this side. Scooping, rinsing away all your fear. And now you're going to switch your hands. Your left hand will come to your lower back. You'll use your right hand as a scoop. Scooping, inhaling, exhale. Let go of all your fear. Pulling the energy up. Feel it coming into the kidney space. So we want to have that imagination that we're using the movement and the breath to release that fear, to harmonize the energy. So our intention, our mind is helping us to release. So sink with your breath one more time. exhaling, exhaling. We can release our arms. So now we're going to get a holding posture to build this energy. So we're going to put our hands behind our back. I'm going to turn so you can see. I'm going to bring my hands right under my kidneys here. So now I'm holding, I'm supporting my kidneys. Some of us, this might be a little tough on the back. So we want to get a little forwardly. Open your chest. Feel the energy sitting on your palms. Some of us, our hands might not reach as high. So find the comfortable posture with your hands. You may feel a lot of energy sitting on your palms, supporting your kidneys, energy feeling that lower back. So many times people that are fearful, they say they lack spine. They have trouble with their back or they have a yellow stripe on their back. So we want to feel that energy creating the power. So through the holding posture, there might be discomfort, there might be some pain, some vibration. That's where the energy is blocked. We're trying to clean that. So the holding postures allow us to build our energy, to store it. Then we have more material to work with. So our second flow is going to be our flow for circulation for creation. We're going to start to create more energy, grow more energy and build the energy. Good. Feel the tingling. Maybe some in your soles, maybe your palms, maybe your shoulders aren't very happy. Good. So feel the energy refilling your body. Good job. One more breath here and exhale. Slowly release the arms. Now we're going to come to our circulation flow. So with our hands, we're going to pull them towards you to the back of the hands, okay, each other.  You can bend a little bit more. So you're pulling the water energy up. So you're refilling yourself with water and then the fountain sprays around your body. So picture the fountain of energy coming up through your body and filling and growing. So we start to cultivate more strength, more power. The color associated with water energy is blue. So visualize a nice deep ocean blue energy coming up and filling your body, allowing yourself to grow this more harmonious energy, feeling yourself becoming a little stronger, a little braver. So connecting with your breath, connecting mind and body. Feel yourself filling with water becoming lighter, bright blue energy radiating. One more breath. Exhale. We're going to bring down the energy three times to balance and harmonize the energy throughout your body. One more time. Cross the hands over your lower dungeon, second chakra, bring your feet a little closer. Swing like the bamboo in the breeze. Now the energy to move your body. Now we can start to rub our abdomen, clock bones, where you feel about shoulder width once again. Really consolidate that energy, grow the energy and slowly take a deep breath in. And so thank you for joining me for working with the water element. This is good for vanishing our fear for growing a little bit of confidence and being able to attack life a little stronger. So thank you for your practice today. Thank you. And if you'd like to experience a full one hour brain education based class, please contact the local body and brain center near you.