He promised to be very interested once, at least for me. And we're going to start with Professor Stephen Stelzem. He's a professor of philosophy and has been the chair of the Department of Philosophy at the University of Cairo. For me, Cairo, he received his PhD from the very University of Berlin. His areas of specialization are comparative analysis of Western and Islamic concepts of knowledge as well as the ethical dimension of Islamic education. His particular interest, in terms of research, is narratives of spiritual trouble. And it's going to us today about traveling by night, with bridges and channels, the troubles of the problems. The entire presentation for each participant would be about half an hour, and about 20 minutes of presentation and not trying for questions. It's OK. OK, right. Would you have quite a minute left? I'll be here. And then one minute left, and then we'll have to start. Thank you very much, please. This is a little bit, do they hear me? There's a microphone here. We can hear. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. This is about traveling by night. That's a very particular type of journey, in many respects. Traveling, journeying, voyaging, so many words for a desire, for thoughts in search of something, for the flowering of imagination, for actions undertaken. Actions, thoughts, imaginations moved by pay or by pleasure, often with good intentions and often enough with bad consequences. It seems that man travels, as it was put in ancient descriptions of the soul or the descriptions of himself, man travels on all levels, physically, mentally, spiritually. And it seems that this human being found is important to accompany those travels by reflections, by notebooks while traveling, or by telling stories of their travels or stories, telling stories instead of their travels. Is there any literature, any art of storytelling that does not know of traveling? Sometimes it takes just one word to set the train of thought moving. One word to fire the imagination. One word for somebody to pick up, pick his bag and go. You know, of course, that the English word, that English words like travel, journey, voyage, name something that may be named in other languages too. But they name it in their own way. Travel, strangely, says something of tribe, journey of jewel, voyage of war. Having traveled myself, I came across a word that has neither laid off nor laid, or weighed in it, but it is still translated as voyage. It is the Arabic word, saffron. And it has made it onto and into a book called, He Tehbel Isfar and Nathamij El Asfar, Book of Unveiling the Foods of Voyaging. Arabic literature, be it Islamic, Islamic, or still Islamic, has brought forth well-known examples of travel literature. Our specific text is, however, not sitting too well on this land, and I propose, therefore, after paying some dues to the need for general information, to quickly run back to the particular Arabic word for voyage he mentioned. The text I would be dealing with was composed in the 13th century by Bukhili in Arabic, who sometimes, for lack of a better name, has been called a theosophist, sometimes with better reasons, who one of the greatest figures in Islamic spirituality, or just a sheikh al-Aqba, the greatest of masters. Whichever name is applied, there is no doubt that his writings are deeply informed by the classic Islamic sources of knowledge, namely the Polan and the Ahadith, even if in Arabic reads these sources in ways that are often irritating to convention Islamic theology, and thus have led to sometimes quite violent controversy. At first glance, the relevance of voyaging for him in Arabic seems to be derived from his sheer universality. All beings that establish the religiously formulated cosmos, that is all of creation, its creator himself, and the book that tells of both creator and creation are traveling. And all are traveling insofar as they are moving. This surprisingly physical understanding of voyaging appears, however soon in a different light when it becomes clear to which extent the differentiation amongst various kinds of traveling is not just the physical, but also, and even more so, a legal matter. The law in this case is of course the divine law, the sharia. From this moment on, traveling is not just a matter of moving anymore, it becomes movement in respect of the divine. There are accordingly three major kinds of voyage, one of which receives particular attention here, and is subdivided into three further groups. It is important to note already here that the voyages are envisaged in regard of the need of preparation for them. There is first, I quote, the voyage for which the servant should be prepared because it is required by the divine law, and in whose preparation his felicity, sahada, lies, that is the voyage to Allah, in him and from him. Second, the voyage whose preparation is not required by the divine law, that is traversing the earth in the pursuit of illicit goal for the business of this world, quotation. And third, the voyage of his own breath, which is not a matter of the divine law, but of nature. As only the first kind of voyage is required by the divine law, and the felicity of the traveler depends on it if the Arabian specifies the subdivisions. Namely, firstly, voyage min indahu, voyage from him, of which I get three subtypes. Namely, first, the voyage of the one who is thrown out of divine presence, not ruled, like he bleeds the devil. Secondly, the voyage of Sheykhajal, the voyage of Sinas, that is of those who are not outright reviewed, but cannot stay in the presence of Allah because of their faith. And thirdly, the voyage of those who went back, who are sent back by Allah to the world of creation, that is to say, the messengers and those who are sent by him to govern this world. Secondly, the voyage, elehi, to him, which is firstly the voyage of the one who associates another divinity with Allah, that is to say, Sheykhajal. Secondly, the voyage of the one who worships him, and as a transcendent thought, and thirdly, the voyage of those who are protected against Arab Marsoom, that is to say, the prophets and saints. Thirdly, the third kind of voyage is fihi in him, and there are two subdivisions, one by A by reflection and intellect. We are calling him or calling him, and the travelers of these, their guide is their figure, he's out of the other thoughts. Secondly, those who are quote, are taken on the voyage by God, sufiro, sufiro, fihi, fihi, that is the messengers, Marsoom, and the prophets, the voyagers amongst them, the saints like the realized ones from the folk of Sufism, and Musa al-Garooda, and Awiyah, and Muhappi Kooda, and Regina Sufira. Two things emerge from this description, that the only voyage worthy to be considered and worthy to be cared for here, is the voyage in regard of God, and the best or the safest way of traveling in regard of him is not by following one's own ideas or imaginations, that is if one can say so, not even by traveling, but by allowing oneself to be traveled. Yet if such are the voyagers of prophets and saints, which part does an ordinary traveler have in them? Or in other words, if all the servants of Allah, a better than Allah, should devote themselves with all their means to the preparation of such a journey, then of what particular benefit will the voyagers of prophets be for them? To search for an answer to this question, let us take a look at two prophets' prophetic voyagers out of many of the Arabic recounts, the stories of the voyagers of Ex-Sidna Ibrahim and Siddha Muhammad. But preceding this, I would like to quickly come back to the Arabic words for voyage used here, namely Saba. Regarding this word, in the Arabic begins in his text, with an observation. The observation or interpretation or maybe just some word play, which nevertheless lies at the heart of the adab of traveling. He observes that this Arabic word for voyaging Saffron also means unvading. Quote, the voyage was called Saffron because it unvades Yusfirul, the manner thereby making the lay worthy and the phrase worthy characteristics of every man and inside, that everyone has that here. We have to rewrite our previous definition of voyaging accordingly. If we use the word Saffron to speak of voyaging, then voyaging means movement which unveils, movement that unveils. Does in a certain sense all voyagers, those undertaken in pursuit of sub-earthly business, the natural voyage of one's breath and the voyages required by the divine law, included those on the rejection by God or of the difficulty of remaining in his presence, all of them must be understood as voyages of unvading. But the effects of the results at their age for these unvading vary in correspondence with the one who travels and the one with those for who's sake the voyage is undertaken. We give the most general and therefore the most imprecise answer to the question of what is unveiled in any voyage, I would say myself. In this sense, the one who travels would be me, Anna, and all the voyages would be undertaken for my own sake. Why is then one particular kind of voyage that is to say the voyage to God gave him and from him required? And why does happiness consist of, is found only in it? Well, precisely, I don't know, I am told so. It seems then that listening and understanding accompanied my voyage, or maybe our voyages themselves. If the army speaks in his text, not only of the voyages of persons, prophetic or divine, but also of the voyages of words, or of the recital of the Holy Quran, and thereby of listening to, reciting, and interpreting what is said, each of these should be understood as movements of unveiling, as quite likely it should in the army's book be seen as, it said, quote, I only speak of all the voyages mentioned here, ailing as my own essence and not as an interpretation as here of the story that happened to these prophets. These voyages are bridges and passageways built so that we pass over them. Now, Furoh, Aleha, thoughts our essences and our own states. We profit from them because Allah made them for us a place of passage. Mahabharat, Lana. Interpretation means finding one's way from letter to meaning, then the meaning in this case is not located in the stories, but in the tenor or the hero or reader. The travel stories of the prophets are not told for their own sake to inform or entertain or become objects of research, but precisely they are told as ways to travel. They prepare the tenors of their tales as well as the heroes for their own voyages, providing places to pass. Let us take a look at two of them, the story of one of the voyages of Abraham and the story of the voyage of the Prophet Muhammad. Following the indication of the Koran, Inna daribun ila rabri tse yahdini, I am voyage of my Lord, He will guide me. In the army calls this voyage called the voyage of guidance. It is in brief and according to common view, the story of Abraham's sacrifice of his son Ishmael. In the army's reading of it, that it is his traveling aid, has however a different result, one that makes it in a way of voyage or voyaging, or if you like the story of travel stories. Quote, this station, Vanzin, is difficult because it is a place of passage, aha, it is not thought for its own sake, but for that it should be accomplished through it. In other words, it is a story of interpretation. One calls the quote, one calls the interpretation of dreams or of visions that appear in Ethiopia, passing, evolved, because the interpretation has here passes from the dream to death, which it came for, unquote. In the army mentions in this context what he calls quote, the Prophet's passing from milk to knowledge, unquote. As a successor passing and contrast it with Abraham's voice, which quote, threw him into the darkness that prevented him from crossing this passage, unquote. There seems then to be interpretation and interpretation. Interpretation that arrives at what the vision came for, and interpretation that gets, so to speak, stuck on the bridge. That is the interpretation had by the image. The reason for this being held in passage lies already in the brightness of intention. By asking God of the company happily with a son, indeed, where Abraham asked Allah to give him a child, give him the righteous, Abraham asked God for other than God, for you in our army. He asked God for other than God. If the intention of the boyish is nevertheless to go to God, then the traveler must go blind, or blindly, in other words. He or she must travel in the universe of pleasure and pain, joy and sadness, where, as in the case of Abraham, he experiences extreme joy at the moment of being relieved from the pain for having to kill his son. This however, due to Abraham's not seeing that his son signified Ram from the very beginning. If he had not asked Allah for other than him, then he would, as in the army puts it, for received as good news, a contemplation at Musahadah, and not Isaac. The story of the voyage of Abraham is for this reason not less significant than where he would.  It is only through it, and precisely through it that we come to know of guidance. In this sense, it serves as much as all the other stories of the voyages of prophets as they bridge toward our essences and states. Next to Abraham the second traveler, or rather a band of shepherds who are traveling with hindrances, must be mentioned, gave the philosophy. Abraham's wish for a worldly good was still addressed to God, and therefore acknowledged him as a guide to himself. I am going to a God, and he will guide me. The second going was however, for not for the divine guidance, but his guides of their own reflection and intellect, in the army calls them the philosophy, so I must hand it to them. In the army, it's a way of interposing to think for the philosophers that one can do so by calling it a kind of literalism. If the army is not at all against interposing such descriptions, but he insists on the importance of the fact that Allah has said, described himself in this way, that therefore this letter of the outward sense cannot be rushed aside or left behind for the sake of the real being, as I say, the inward sense. Yes, the outward sense meets interpretation, but it persists in respect with it, as it is, and to travel with it, to take it to the inward sense. To accomplish such a passage that the interpreter must take the outward sense with him or her, they must travel really with the outward sense and not go all towards crossing. The inward sense, when in this way only we know when they arrive, but in a wasana wajada, when arriving one finds, in this case a kind of traveling it should not be called faulting with traveling, the resulting state of interpretation would perhaps be formulaically translated as, this outward sense meets that. In the army calls this aimara, giving expression, but in the sense of traveling with traveling or crossing with crossing, the inward sense is the outward sense only unveiled. Both as for the faithful, the true, through the possessors of steadfastness amongst the friends of Allah, they cross over, taking the outward sense along with them. They do not cross from the outward sense to the inward sense, but they take the letter itself to the meaning without giving expression of it. You have to go further. Could you give me another five minutes? We shall have a discussion. All right. It is noteworthy. I would like to mention to you from an aneurysm account of the night journey, to this to say something about whether this is all on the art of the prophet Muhammad. I'd like to mention to you from an aneurysm account of the night journey, three points which are closely connected. Servitude, love, and what is called the Musa Marat, the nighty conversation. The one who travels or rather is traveled to Peru in this voyage is called, not Muhammad, not the prophet Muhammad, that's refers to the area of the Quran, so pardon him, the Asfabi-i-Aqtihi-l-Ainan. He is not called Muhammad, not prophet Muhammad, but his servant, Abdul-Ruq. There's no one who says I am going, not even I am going to my door, or I travel, I am crossing the bridge, I arrive, and Abdul describes this servitude as unqualified servitude, servitude of prophet Muhammad, for three of all the glory and divine qualities or the absence of absence, life and life, when the servant is so completely servant that he is even absent from servitude. And it is the servant who has shown God's signs on the horizon and in himself, and has given the most complete knowledge. He is passing from prostration to prostration, as he does not call it without meaning, nor is he held by it. His servant is taken to travel by night and into the night. His voyage is as much a voyage of spaces as is of time set of the human being. Both, the night is free from it, and the human being is free worlds, the world of sensation, which is the first third of the night, the world of imagination, which is the second, and the world of meaning, which is the last third of the night in this configuration. But in the last, the reader descends as indicated by his words, quote, the heart of my servant embraces me. If words were spoken in the eternity of the night, what would be revealed of them and of their meanings? In this conversation, who speaks with whom? Lava would be doubled, servant with law, me with whom? Let us not forget that each word of the Quran is said to be open towards all meanings demanded by speech.  Are not there all kinds of voyages, prophetic and philosophical and otherwise? All those arrivals and possibilities to arrive, are they not in so many words, only two words, ayna ana, and we will. As for the Samarat, the nocturnal conversation, if the other be said, it is I, he says, who recite the book for him with his tongue, while he listens to me. And that is my nocturnal conversation with him. That servant say was my word, but if he binds himself to his own meanings, he leaves me by his reflection and meditation. While he must do his own being towards me and leave this year's procession to my word until I am present in his recitation. And just as it is I who recite and I who make him here, it is also I who then explain my word to him and interpret his meaning. That is my nocturnal conversation with him. Thank you very much. I have a run of the story of my question. Thank you for what has always been interesting. So I will be able to open the questioner. Any comments, questions? Related to Abraham's voice, I wonder whether in my view that anything concerning Abraham's wife, Heather's voice, sorry, voice, or type of voice, an anxious walk between a centaur and a mawa, and then which is a type of spatial movement, probably also a voyage, and recuperated now in Ritterwalda, in Hajj. And then with Hajj itself, a type of voyage. Yeah. So I wonder whether there is any thing called serenity in Hajj as well. Yeah, it's not in this text, not in this book. But I mean, there are many, many other voyages mentioned there, and Hajj, who was not this particular. I mean, the story of the Brazilian citizen, but you only occurs in this text in order to show a certain kind of travel that we just described here, that's to say. A whole party with travel, a travel of guidance. Yes. Thank you very much for that. Oh, that's really wonderful. I have a small question about the Arabian approach. The journey is to be interpreted. And the interpretation of the journey is also a type of spiritual journey to unveil the meaning of the original journey. So we have almost two parallel journeys going on. And at the end of both journeys, we have, do we, how does one, as a spiritual journey person, know that they have arrived at the meaning of the original journey that one is paralleling? There are many apparatus in the Arabian process of interpretation that allows one to confirm or verify that the end goal of that journey of unveiling has been confirmed. Yeah. Well, in a certain way, your question already is part of the answer. Who is there to know if he or she has arrived? Because the voyage itself is a voyage of myself. And the voyage of the Prophet Muhammad is the best example for it. Like we said, it's a servant who is even absent from the servanthood. That means who is not aware of being a servant. He's so completely serving that he does not distinguish himself or is distinguished from his servanthood. Then who would be there and who would know that he or she has arrived? That's why I find this also a quotation by Masala Wajala. It is so interesting here. If you arrive at there is a rival, then what is found? So there can't be, negatively speaking, there can't be so-and-so called objective criterion for having arrived. But the practice is important, the practice of this, what we call spiritual interpretation. For one knows that once arrives, when one arrives. When you arrive, you're not there. That's the problem. I mean it's difficult for us because we are used to our subjective, objective dichotomy and that we have something in front of him we can look at and can measure and so on. But that is very strange in regard to spiritual practice. I found it particularly interesting also if I may add this, how can we learn a little bit about oral history? On one hand it seems to be all tied to written texts. But then on the other hand what is the Quran? Is the Quran a written text or an oral text? I mean we know that there are discussions about the Quran certainly as a particular quantity in respect of these things. And it's not sufficiently worked on, it has been worked on. But in terms of the talk we heard yesterday at the museum about oral history, I found it particularly interesting to take such things into account like what she said about the way her sources responded to those who asked them. I mean this is very important. I call here at one point the adab of traveling. I mean for instance the story of being made to travel by a spiritual guide is very similar to it. Because voyage brings out your bad characteristics because it's difficult. So that was mentioned by an Arab media also. And so I think that although it sounds like one had pretty abstract maybe one might say, but these things are all verified by our practice in the daily spiritual practices. I mean you know if you found ever a spiritual master putting you together with somebody in 1.7 that you don't particularly like and on your voyage then you will find out what the purpose of it. Thank you very much. Another second presentation is Professor Piazzi Ali Nasala. She's a post-doctoral research and teaching associate at the Institute of Philosophy in Collaborative Research since 1980 and creating a research program. She completed PhD in philosophy at the laser institute in 2010. Her research interest includes medieval and modern philosophy, art philosophy, epistemology and physics. And it was initially created on other and outer travels in Al-Ghazali. Thank you very much. So yes, the title is Inearned Outer Travels in Al-Ghazali. Al-Ghazali's famous criticism of the pedipathetic traditions and the Arabic philosopher including Ibn Sina is best seen in his staff at Al-Ghazali. In the course of his argumentation he asserts that he doesn't want to take an anti-philosophical or better known philosophical standpoint according to his understanding of philosophy. He explicitly takes issue with certain philosophical convictions of the philosopher. Although Al-Ghazali is considered a critic of this tradition he follows in his bookstaffs in his pathological and epistemological approaches. Thus, it is hardly surprising that his definition of the part of his soul in his description of the epistemic process has something in common with the approach of Al-Qarabi and most of all we can see now. It has often been pointed out that this is true for the psychological and epistemological context in Al-Ghazali's works Mokhaza, a philosopher, half of the philosopher and he said in Al-Ghazali which were written before he left his academic post in Baghdad around the year 1095. This is very important and probably still most unwindingly read book of Al-Ghazali's middle period the years of traveling after he left Baghdad before he started to teach again in Shantpur is the Ihiro-Lume theme. It also contains a psychological and epistemological approach that is to a great extent in line with the argumentation of the mentioned earlier works. One of the books of Al-Ghazali's famous Ihtiq is the title Kitab-Adab-Safa. In this work he does not only discuss the desire for forms of travel behaviour in these tribes to increase and advance the knowledge of travelling but also interweaves these descriptions with discussion of the inner intellectual journey and the development of knowledge and the elevation of insight in human beings. And he thus unfolds here an advanced psychological and epistemological series. So, as already mentioned above, Al-Ghazali's work Ihiro-Lume theme was composed after he left Baghdad probably in the years 1096 to 1098. The Kitab-Adab-Safa is the seventh book of the second part. On the one hand this book has to be understood in the framework of Muslim travel literature of Al-Ghazali's lifetime. So the importance of travel in this period as well as for his own intellectual endeavour is evident in the fact that he wrote one entire book of the internet in this theme. His most decisive collaborations of inner and outer forms of travel are to be found in the first chapter of this book. But already in the prologue Al-Ghazali really differentiates between inner and outer forms of travelling. He formulates this as follows. Now then, travel is a means for escape from what is flat for for taking what is sought and desired. Travel has two forms. There's a travel of the physical body out from the habitation and home into deserts and open spaces. And there's a travel of the heart's journey out from the lowest of the low up to the dominion of the heavens. The noble of the two is the inward travel. Thus also the epistemological process of an inner development towards and final achievement of divine knowledge is clearly described in the terminology of travel. In what follows, Al-Ghazali invites readers to critical reflection of rational enquiry. His purpose is repeatedly promoted in his accounts. At the same time, it makes clear that the formation of the capacity for critical reflection relies upon proper instruction and learning, as well as the appropriate company. According to his explanations, only few people are actually capable to undertake this exacting property. For the greater majority of people is unattainable. However, all those without direct access to inner travel may benefit from narrowly defined forms of worldly physical traveling, since also this form of traveling can contribute to an increase in knowledge. Aside from the aspiration of knowledge, he also acknowledges another legitimate motivation for the undertaking of travel of the physical body, namely flight from harmful conditions. As harmful, classified diseases, as much as persecution or conditions that may render a proper religious life impossible. Al-Ghazali differentiates and check the one between three classes of knowledge to be gained by physical travel, of which at least two may classify as classic of those quick reforms of knowledge. He names and discusses religious knowledge in the form of the knowledge of one of the religious sciences, self-knowledge and knowledge of nature. Whereas the latter is defined as a form of understanding divine science in the world by way of intelligence. The latter can be understood by also taking this interpretation of the concept of the preserved tablet into account as it is developed in other parts of the area. But Al-Ghazali self-knowledge must comprise the awareness of one's inner capacities and failures. Traveling is supposed to contribute to self-knowledge since it then Jesus' negative characteristics of persons that might not come to the fore of the state surrounding one's own inner capacity. He writes, quote, In summary, the soul at home in the company of pleasant locations will not display its evil character traits because it has suffered into the familiar comforts which suit its nature. When the soul under his travels hardship and is kept from its accustomed comforts and samples the hardships of life away from home, its evils are made bare and its faults are suddenly recognized. Then it is possible to attend to its cure. What forms this cure to soul is not to mention the Al-Ghazali but it may be understood from other books of the in here especially from its deliberations in Ajay with color for more than some part. Even though the merits of hardships of traveling for self-knowledge have been undermined here in the data stage of the same chapter that the advantages of traveling are confined to narrowly limited periods of time. Permanent traveling against that is supposed to result in a complete confusion of the heart. That's especially for weaker characters traveling can turn out to be inherently risky and dangerous undertaking for their moral and intellectual success. Being for stronger characters in what traveling is to be preferred over actual physical skills. Therefore, Al-Ghazali writes, Now the business of this mounting and setting off is something that confuses all the inward states. Thus the aspiring ought only to travel in order to search for knowledge or to see a master scholar whose conduct he will indicate from whose side he built the will to do good for benefit. But if he busies himself and seeks to see clearly and when the way of reflection or words is opened up to him and the residence is better suited for him. Al-Ghazali appears to favor inward over outward traveling becomes also evident in focusing on his deliberations about the knowledge of nature to be obtained by physical traveling. In this context he analyzed that the observation of nature has to go beyond sensory structure, beyond near outer seeing and hearing. Instead the ideal is to reach the stage of inward seeing and hearing that gives access to divine knowledge. But therefore so long as the Chetan leads to see the world of dominion and witnessing with physical sight he is far behind in the first stage of the stages of those who suture towards God and travel to his majesty. This is if he has come to the doorway and has not proceeded. Thus the true knowledge seekers in the end are the one who focuses on inward travel and becomes neither part of that. What need has he for coming and going in open spaces when there is song for him in the dominion of the heavens? The sun and the moon in the stars are then subject in their coming and going to his command. In the sight of those who possess insight these travel continuously these travel continuously in each once in a year while still moving tirelessly through the course of time. So once again inward travel is the undertake of permanent life long journey in contrast to the outward travels that ought to be undertaken only through limited periods. But properly undertake inward travel also appears to make the need for outer traveling at least from the perspective of the loss of the increase of knowledge in the end obsolete. While the inner travel comprises can be best understood from another sentence as Jeb and Caliphant I shall come to this now. So the first book of the third part of the Ihe is the Ajeb and Calph. It contains a detailed reflection of what's taken to be Al-Razali's psychology. The discussion is closely connected to his interpretation of the concept of the preserved tepid. On the one hand Al-Razali discusses preserved tepid in the Ajeb and Caliph with real through the divine creation of the world. On the other hand he sets light on its accessibility to human knowledge, describing the possibilities of indirect central access to its world, the image for direct threshold access. In this book the human heart is already indicated by the titles at the center of the discussion. Al-Razali the word heart has two meanings here. On the one hand it refers to the physical animal or human heart. On the other the word denotes the spiritual intellectual substance. This subtle changing substance is the real essence of man and the heart is the part of man which perceives and knows and experiences. Other interchangeable terms are the heart as spirit, soul and also the intellect. According to Al-Razali the heart is where actual human knowledge is possible. Similarly to an epicendian and also Aristotle she further differentiates knowledge between two kinds of knowledge which are knowledge of the sensible and knowledge of the intelligent. Accordingly there are two fundamental ways in which knowledge can reach the heart. This is one where the perception of the material sense of the world and via the divine revelation and divine inspiration. The perception of the sensible takes place with the help of external senses and divine inner senses. For Al-Razali this inner sense includes the concepts of imagination, reflection, recollection and storage and then above that level then there comes rationality and above rationality comes intuition. The functioning of the inner senses is described as a process in which human beings are sensing objects with the external sense of sight perceive the image or form of it within their imagination. By means of an illustrative metaphor Al-Razali describes in chapter 9 the divine creation of the world as the rising of the archetype on the preserved tablet. The description of the real nature of things is not only later in this chapter but the created world as the image of the archetype. The beings have two fundamental ways of accessing and thus understanding the preserved. The first and most obvious way is through sense perception and that's the same thing that one can do whatever is right gain insight into the nature of the world. Human beings perceive an image of the material created world which is itself an image of the health of the external and internal senses. Al-Razali formulates this in a violent way. On the world which has been brought into actuality in the image of the archetype they are transmitted to the external senses and it retends to the imaginations to the other image. Interestingly, the scenes of the world transmit an image to the senses and the imagination here. Humans do not access the world with orally systematic concepts but the image of the material world comes to the mind. According to Al-Razali, the image available in the human imagination corresponds to the external material world. Then the imagination transmits an effect to the heart where the subject to intellectual reflection. As a result the actual nature of this thing is supposed to be uncovered. According to Al-Razali, the image that enters the human heart should correspond to the image and imagination that corresponds to the external world which moreover is the image of the divine plan. In this way, it is possible to understand the divine realm by understanding the material world by a sense perception of the imagination. In this discussion all inner senses and activities are subsumed under the true imagination. Al-Razali also talks in this context of the world four different forms of existence namely one the preserved talent two the world as corporeal or real existence three an imaginative existence and four as an intellectual existence. Besides the material existence of the world all other forms of existence are spiritual which differ in the degree of spirituality. However since this is a mediated way of understanding the divine world namely through the central and the imaginative world these forms of existence also reflect obstacles for understanding. In essence they constitute a veil between the divine world and the intellectual understanding of the heart. Here the above mentioned second way of understanding the preserved talent comes into play since it is the direct axis of the heart, the divine realm. It can only take place in the forms of three ambitions when the sense perception is not active and decides the same kind of things that I believe are in the part of travels are called in traveling. These three ambitions are only available to somebody who devotes himself exclusively to the remembrance of Allah and are revealed to him through general inspiration and accounting into his heart when he knows not. The form of knowledge is more direct and requires the heart's more purification. Nevertheless, from the example that Allah uses to clarify his deliberations it is possible to infer that the most desirable form of knowledge is a combination of both forms of understanding. He exemplifies this by using the famous neuro metaphor. Thus the purification and clarification of the heart undertaken by the saints is only reasonable and can only lead to deeper insights with the other side of intellectual understanding which is based on the perceptions of the material that you mentioned of world is not effective. This, in turn, is due to the fact that the heart is favouring between the visible and the invisible world. Thus, the intellectual process on the basis of the perception of the senses and the imagination remains a critical step in the process of understanding the essence of things. This understanding of it and the essence of things in the human heart is never completely identical with the archetype plan of the preserved tablet even if people have pretty visions. Al-Razali's account is absolute. Knowledge remains reserved for angels because the real nature of things are written down in the preserved tablet and indeed in the heart of the angels. Thus, in a jair al-Qadir Al-Razali maintains the paraphagic epistemology of Eucena with regard to the mention of inner senses to a great extent. Only the sense of estimation gets dismissed. However, the explanation of the concrete functioning of the different inner senses remains obscure. Furthermore, although Al-Razali emphasises the importance of the purification and clarification of the heart intellectual activity remains highly important. Both taken together appear to constitute, I believe, the desired form of inner travelling that Al-Razali has laid out shortly in the Kitab Al-Razali sub-art. Questions or comments? Yes, Al-Razali's concept derives that if the heart is a place where perceptions somehow get collected as we think or thought about or used that sense of perception is one of the two ways to acquire knowledge. Do I have to imagine if I go on travel and see something and touch something that these sense of perceptions immediately go to my heart where they are processed to knowledge or... The first one is what is called inner senses. So the first other go that is which lies under the major terminology of imagination which has sub-sensors. And this is a kind of, called in other books, kind of filtering or kind of missing of the right terminology now, but it passes the imagination and there, like the form that is received from the outer sense that this is clearly inner materiality and terminology these forms then remain in the imagination and are reflected upon another time before they reach what we will call rationality. Also sometimes calls it ocular, but then you also use the term heart. So what we would in general only call rationality that has its place in the heart. Where is it? Where does imagination come in in this case? We have other accounts where he tries also to answer that question because it's a question for, not only for him, but it has also been a question for Aferama and Ibn Sina. And he avoids it. It is not really clear if it's in the brain or in the heart. And I would argue and if I believe that he goes along with Ibn Sina, I would say he tries to go along the same as Ibn Sina at some point says it's not important, it appears to be maybe in the brain but the real rationality is in the heart but it doesn't really matter. And I believe it has to do with the fact that there are two kinds of philosophical traditions in the background, which is Galen for one thing and Gorma and Aristotle which comes together with the fact that in the holy texts also in the heart but also when you come from the philosophical traditions of Aristotle and Galen you have the two possibilities of either brain or heart that is mixed up here and there is no clear differentiation and I think because imagination is described as a pathway it's not the major importance so the major interest for him as for the more important capacity is the rationality and then afterwards comes what is intuition or it comes on the side depending on how are you there is a good question in the context of the of the sense of the sense of the sense of the sense of the sense of the sense of the sense that regarding pure Sufi intuition I think it is beyond and even a sub-aparagic that is not even for Galen but this is why I said that is also the same why I mentioned this famous neuro metaphor that you might refer to it's not to be a Sufiism but to be a saint and he clearly says that he has that maybe I described a minute for just for the sake of clarifying that more and then there he says there two different people were taken and they weren't supposed to draw a wonderful painting and they do that at two different opposite walls that's occurred in between one people is doing a very wonderful and colorful drawing the other ones are only polishing the wall and not doing anything else and then the curtain is lifted and then the picture on the side of the polished wall is more colorful and more beautiful than the other one which has been painted in wonderful colors and then comes the conclusion that you need those things you need the colorful side plus you need the purification of yourself in the mirror because then your heart works as a mirror then he says being only a saint is not nice what you need is rational reflection and rational reflection depends upon reflecting on what has come to you from the external world and this is why I say he would say the ideal is at a certain point to get away from sense perception and only to rely on the inner reflection but this this is an old philosophical talk but being a human being and being exposed to sense perception in the end you cannot get away of it what becomes of you no there are two different kinds for one thing there is the reflection upon what has come inside from the senses and this is then more rationalized and then there are some people who also receive from the divine realm insights and those are then put together then there is some kind of increase of knowledge but you cannot have either one so having either one of the sides will definitely lead you to what is his ideal complete knowledge in the end or this is at least my reading that's the difference between just going around town and traveling so in this perception it's not a matter even if you go outside of your house it's a problem and then comes the point where there is a difference between Aristotle and this because Aristotle always sees public duty and you have to do something for your community etc how does he deal with this because in Islam it's also high duty I answered that in two steps for one thing it's because it exposes you to more dangers and it's not the same as leaving your house because those are surroundings that you are known that are familiar with but leaving your house and exposing yourself travels to places that are further away exposes you to dangers and to deal with these dangers is dangerous to your morality because then you are in situations that you are not accustomed to and you might drag them away that you do not want because then you might make an immortal way so this is why there is the difference that's the other thing in those steps there is no response to that because what about public duty so you are referring to something like the Nicaragic Essex for example in those texts not like when you look here when you compare these two when it comes to traveling there is no discussion of this so it is not about the daily habits if you are emergent or something like this this doesn't sustain you as well as much as if it's a one in a lifetime travel experience you do it once a year so it's very well I think the question is also I mean he doesn't say but I would then it depends on the intentions that you have it's important what kind of intentions are behind and this kind of the question that you are asking he doesn't even discuss it being emergent because his ideas early gain knowledge about the world is gain knowledge about the nature about the natural so being emergent it's no gain of knowledge he doesn't even discuss this this idea he touched yourself from all of you in the theory of creation so being emergent is not the same thing for example not to settle in one place so you don't get affiliated you don't develop a relationship you become like say all this behind just to be in a probably a social knowledge and that that will take into a different state of morality and like purification this means about it in a lot of detail in answer but the I think your question is more about what would I describe under the term of out of time as I out of time as I speak yeah okay not exactly between the eye and the heart so how does filigree work what does filigree work it's very much in line with contemporary ideas and the eye is potentially evil but it's like bad information but the heart just knows what it's like probably the it sounds clear but probably the classical tradition did not read Augustine it's coming over translation really for Aristotle and the animal and this is why it also corresponds to Jens question the filtering is what is called imagination the evil as such is not evil this is our only sense perception but the problem happens in that kind of filtering moment it has to undergo the process to all that comes inside from the ascents it has to pass imagination to reach the rational part of the heart but that can happen at problems because what one thing like the image as such can be it can arrive in imagination already falsely plus imagination has also the the imagination also has to to help you memorizing so memory falls also under the terminology of imagination so what happens then in when you recall what is in your memory of the things we have seen you're putting together the term for the things we have seen with the things of the actual forms and already in this process there can come up problems so the eye as such is not evil it's not the problem the problem takes place in passage from the eye to the heart thank you very much thank you all of the presentation today is by Louise Gabarini she is a PhD candidate in the Arabic and Eastern Language Department of the American University of Peru Lebanon after being in one modern Arabic literature at the IMNLCO in Paris focusing on contemporary Arabic literature from Lebanon and the Arabian Peninsula she now returned to classical Arabic and Islamic literature the dissertation topic is Angels in Sufism the Quran, Mirage Literature and the works of Ibn Arabi her presentation today is I'm traveling through the heavens the Mirage of Abu Izzid al-Mustami in Arabic literature and thank you too so the Mirage Literature is an aspect of the Islamic eschatological literature that has been built upon a few verses of the Quran pertaining to what came to be known as the ninth journey of Prophet Muhammad from Makkah to Jerusalem which is the Isra and his ethnic has ascension which is the Mirage Proper Isra in Arabic is a ninth travel as is the Quranic verse associated with it in Surah An-Nasr however the Mirage works with many squares or other and has come to decline the ascension through the heavens to go is made most not only to Quranic verses but more easily in their meaning in Surah An-Nasr so if the ninth journey is alluded to in the Quran the reference to the Mirage Story is this way this is how the Mirage Stories will promise to be elaborated and extended in religious literature until it could be said that it became the third isra in itself and elaboration in religious figures such as prophets and angels the Mirage Literature to have a particular reference to the Mirage Story is the Mirage Story and the Mirage Story to have a particular importance in Sufi Literature and this is what this presentation is about to quote Gerard Levening for the Sufis, the ninth journey and ascension of the prophet became the prototype of the songs itinerary to go as it rises from the vaults of sensuality to the height of misdemeanourism it is described as a quest for misdemeanourism reflecting the women handed from the travel Mirage that we will explore with an early example of Sufi literature which is the Kitab-e-Nyabash attributed to Abu-yazid al-Fistami person of value in al-Fistami he is an important early Sufi figure he is from what is now not central Iran and he is interestingly known only by works and scenes attributed to him as he became an important reference for yet the Sufis and his existing work dynamically assaulting him the text used here is based on a minority concentration of a manuscript whose author is uncertain it is one of different accounts of one distance Mirage the longest one and the only one following the classic structure of the Mirage form from one heaven to another that took over his particular retaining of a Mirage theme is possibly one of the early Sufi works on the Mirage theme paving the way for several subsequent ascension stories also by or attributed to different Sufi personality regarding the point of view of another important Sufi personality on the Prophet's Mirage and questioningly discusses in his own book the Mirage the degrees of belief in the family ascension from those who refuted on one hand those who believe that the Prophet ascended both in body and spirit on the other hand which is our question of his position he then explains that the Sufi Mirage such an epistemic differs from the Prophet in that it is an only in spirit and not in body this is supported by the book and the text while Mirage uses the word Naum to describe his visions so this true vision through Mirage will be seen tremendously in spirit and not in body on Sufi dreams every calendar, tenders and approach first dreams and dreaming were seen to serve an epistemic function mainly communicating knowledge material readily available otherwise second dreams and dreaming were seen to serve a practical purpose mainly as an experiential element of which firing on the physical path finally dreams were made to serve as a marker of claims to such a symposiumity in particular in relation to the ascension that's among all the sects identified for wife comprising the Muslim body it is the Sufis who fulfill the function of post-prophetic worship for the human self we will see that we can find at least one kind of such an edifice-like position vision in the text itself so we will quickly look into the story itself with its characters, narrative and its implications then from this rendering of the Sufi master's ascension immediately to the prophetic ascension the story is presented as narrated by the certain Abu Qasem Al-A'if relating what Al-Islami taught him Al-Islami travels to the seven heavens back to the seat at Korsi then to the throne Al-A'ash where he finally leads Korsi to the throne at every heaven he meets angels of different kinds and groups and some of them are human beings each time they invite Al-Islami to share in their activities such as flagging or offer him a specified but seemingly endless positions thus Al-Islami they are complimenting him on a right at such a level that is one of their statements while them thinking is staying there and not going further Al-Islami understands that it is on their test and he states that he wants to go further every time and first he is taken to the first heaven by a rainbow then to the second and third by a vision and between the third and seventh heaven it is an angel who is taking him by the hand to accompany him further after the seventh sky Al-Islami is given wings so that he doesn't need any angelic help anymore to come into the seat where the angel dedicated to it will also test him however Al-Islami keeps on flying to the throne where all the angels are present such as the Kharubidin which I believe in he wishes to share with him testing him again however Al-Islami keeps his intent and finally but calls to him and rolls him near nearer than the sword to the body of Kharubidin whom in Al-Roh the text ends with the part of the veracity of the event which essentially argues that it is used to try to convince people who don't believe in it in the first place Al-Hiran supported his prophetic sayings and called Al-Islami regarding the form the narrative is less than simple in its language compared to the other accounts of Al-Islami and the formulas at the beginning Prada Abulprasim al-A'if in the fashion of the Islam in the Hadid suggests an oral transmission or at least once present to the text as such moreover the oral formulaic analysis comes to mind when reading this text from the oral literary theory first developed by Nijman Pradi on the Iyad and Odyssey epics and then applied by Andrew by Mr. of the Quran text this analysis tool is used to evaluate how and to which degree the text is rooted in oral performance before the moment of time according to this theory recitals use the set of formulas and themes to represent memorizing narratives these formulas whether singled and repeated word for words or in systems of very similar ones are repeated through the narration and possibly rearranged according to the recital situation during the performance this suppose is that the narrative has fixed in its words as the written text afterwards with this in mind even a quick reading of the history marks it as clearly orally based as we find the repetition of several sentences and phrases in similar places at each stage of the narrative for example we have the following sentence my goal is different from what you are offering me which is repeated nine times and this at the end of each if he may be visited we also have the sentence in all of these sentences that he was testing me a feculli like or the author of endless positions which is repeated in slightly different forms for example for example in the 7th sky in the 7th sky and and and when he arrives at the throne regarding the content we find common themes and characters of prophetic and enlarged stories though with some notable differences for example a tsunami meets through the prophets after we've gone and before with a special emphasis on prophetic and enlarged like only one mentioned by me Ruth Bukowicz showed in her study of prophetic and enlarged narratives that the prophets meeting with different prophets such as Moses or Jesus serves for legitimacy purposes and defining the identity of the Muslim community as a religious group as compared to Jews or Christians or others here by meeting prophet Muhammad a tsunami in a similar fashion could be seen as deriving from this red lantern a religious legitimacy but this time one inside the wider Muslim community a legitimacy among Sufis in whose circles this narrative was probably transmitted first of all similarly this also gives a special aspect to the identity of the Sufi community among Muslims a sort of a deep identity and this is a little to the beginning of the text where it is explained that an experience, this experience cannot be lived by the lay people who are not on earth though they are also another interesting aspect of this narrative is the character and role of the angels which apart from the green bird are the only characters that by understanding the way his ascension to God the first remark we can make is that although only his way to God he seems to meet many angels if not all of them there is no mention of the archangels of the world to breathe this may be underlined that Gabriel is seen or sent to only prophets and not mystics or Sufi masters and this is the way a way of not putting oneself as well understanding what the prophets the word Nul is associated most of the time with angels from the first heaven where angels comment that the visitor and his son is Al-Anil and Nuli fitting with the well-known hadiths mentioning that angels are made from Nul which is the light in the dark in opposition to Jinn made from fire and natural clay through the text descriptions of the apprehension acts of the angels are positive except in a few instances indeed when Al-Bistani wishes the offers they are sometimes described negatively by him like mosquitoes can borrow them overall this gives an interesting impression of angels slightly different from the classically pure beings obeying to God in the case when we suppose that they would only encourage Al-Bistani in his mystical travel however on the contrary in this text one of the primary growth besides from praying and guarding the different heavens is seemingly testing the travels on their path to God they actively try to entice them to riches or even to what appear as perfectly good actions such as praying alongside them and only when Al-Bistani is understanding the nature of the text and insisting on turning on to an angel appeared that company by the end of the next heaven this cursory glance on this aspect of the text gives an interesting picture of the relationship between angels and believers in Islamic cosmology and it somehow arises of a current universe which is the 216th of Sula Al-Baqara fighting has been prescribed for you though it is safe for you but it may be that you hate the thing but it will be good for you and it may be that you love the thing but it will be evil for you but now and you know this here would reflect the need to confront even essentially good creatures such as angels if one is to be good and on the need to travel on and not setting down even though that might sound more comfortable this in turn would illustrate some core aspects to conclude this part of the mirage is interesting first as part of the legacy of the Mirage stories developed around the Prophet in the sense of legacy developed by Dennis Shreder and used by Group Bukovish in her study on the Prophet's Mirage and I quote legacy is what is created after an individual's life is lived it is the record of creative expression and reflections in us reflecting on the life of a given individual the focus on legacy recognizes the scholarship and hermeneutics of their own histories the scholarly enterprise is not protected from the vicissitudes that surround other methods of text production the slivered text, chronic interpretation had its collection and biographies are evaluated as human of thought and in this circumstance she further continues in saying that legacy engages the history of interpretation and focuses on how particular historical factors in particular historical moments construct meaning and use the mirage as the one which creates, confirms and redefines community and ideology as such the invested account of the Islamic Mirage can also be seen more particularly as the first known example of the legacy of a number of Sufi ascension stories that were to come reinforcing the legitimization process of this account is the Sufi community the Sufi community is the fact that this narrative is attributed to a well-known religious figure who lived in what Vekovic calls the classical period of Islamic historiography set between the 1st and 3rd heteroen centuries a period during which different prophetic mirages and hadiths were put in mutant form reading this sonnage through this sense and tells more about major Sufi figures representation the communities revolving around them afterwards and how they define themselves more than about the factual occurrence of this story or whether the historical albistani is at the origin of the second which sounds courteous doubt in any case for the Sufi community Naseh Relasma reminds us and I quote that explicitly or implicitly the impact of the story of the mirage and Sufi literature was powerful in terms of expression structure and form and in symbology and allegory the story symbolized the Sufi path with its complex order of stages and states and provided mystics with a frame of reference for the experiences and contentations as said above they used this allegory power to express the themes of communion with God the generation of the soul and so popularized their beliefs in order to convert the masses to their faith though this aspect is in contradiction towards a superficial reading of albistani the mirage indicated regarding the albistani Naseh we can see that this time we can see this type of Sufi literature as a particular example of the function to encourage soul to the prophetic realm


Good afternoon and welcome back to the program. This is Touchline on Y25. My name is Mark Selwa CK. This time we are talking about the state of basketball in the country. We focused on what happened in Rwanda, Kigari during the just concluded Afro Basketball Championship that saw Kenya. Doing very well though, unfortunately getting eliminated at the pre-quarter final stage in the hands of South Sudan. Of course, we honoured to have Kenya Moran's Power Forward Area Local also known as the Doctor. Good to see you man, long time. Thank you, sir. Kazimde we kwa mendi but we here now. Ken also joining us of course is also passionate about basketball despite his height. He decided to play football and like the other sports. Ken, why not basketball? It's not my thing. I tried it once in high school but it was just excessive. The sprints and everything, I just had to leave it. So tell us what transpired in Rwanda. How was it like man?  And as I said, we did what we were supposed to do. We went there, we competed and we represented Z55 million Kenyans on a big stage of African basketball. Everyone was tuned, people subscribed to start times up so that Kenyans were asking themselves at what time is the game even when they are in the bar catching up English Premier League football because someone wants to have a phone watching Kenya against Mali despite the fact that he's on TV catching up whichever game is it in Europe in Soka. Do you think that is the emanation of growth of basketball and the passion people are having for the sport? The last two years the game has grown. You remember when we did Uganda in the qualifiers, African qualifiers and we beat Egypt and we beat host Uganda, that time we lost to Rwanda. I think that was a time when the game was starting to become what it is right now. And gradually now we are having people subscribing to apps to watch basketball. It was not like that then so those are huge steps in regard to basketball in Kenya. Generally, Ken, you followed the proceedings? I followed the proceedings ever since they managed to qualify after 28 years. It was amazing for them and as you said, you just leave it in moments. You do your job there and you gain good experience and I'd also like to ask after 28 years you qualified and do you think for the next one you are in a better place to go in for it without any consecutive tournaments? We have really good talents coming up. I think from what we have done right now we have inspired a lot of young players who will carry the game forward. The game is in good hands so I don't think we are going to be in the dark again for 28 years. So to me with the World Cup qualifiers coming up in February we are going to play a lot of basketball and we are going to inspire a lot of young people to play basketball. So for now with the talent we have now people who are below 25, we are not I don't think we are going to be out there for 28 years again. We are going to be frequent players of the Afro Basket. So this is the start for the bright future of the game ahead? I do. It was just a stepping stone. We already set the base so now we pick it from there. The wheel is already moving right now. I was asking a friend of mine how come when you add the ball the commentator had juicy details about your personal career and you know sort of a profile most information at his fingertips. Do you at some point do you know each other? No. I didn't even know the commentators. So them worked a thing for ESPN and my sister I think they were doing commentary on my sister back then so I think they just have a thing you know with the name. The name I was using Okaal Koranga so my sister is Felmas Koranga so they know something or two about me but I never met them. They just said this guy is a hard worker and that's it. From day one to the last day they were just singing Koranga Okaal Koranga and I haven't even watched the game so I don't want if I might go and watch the games and I'll start to blast you. Restably you should get to know what really happened. How is the sister by the way? How is she faring on? She's doing amazing. She has finished her rehab. She was coming out of her knee surgery and she's getting ready for her knee season in October. You've noticed nowadays this thing is blood and family. When you start playing football the way you playing even the smaller broil play the same sport and usually when you see you have a sibling or a parent playing football or basketball or any sport the love develops and you even become better than them and look at Wanyama and his father you see to pick it up. It happens. And also this tournament for your team I think the coach was one key key thing in your qualification and in taking you through the campaign and what will you say is the best thing about her and how much has she helped Kenyan basketball and the Moran team? In terms of analytics here analysis and statistics she's a very she's very good in numbers and she's a very good statistician.  So if I'm supposed to shoot from here I cannot shoot from this spot because probably maybe I miss 50 percent from here I'm shooting 74 from here so this is the better place to score from so this is what she's been bringing to the team making players understand their strengths and where they can be successful. So I can say in terms of analysis and statistics she's great and that's what we needed because basically Kenya we are naturally athletic we can run the whole day so you don't need to make me do those prins every single time. She received a huge praise overwhelming one following you know her accomplishments in Rwanda and even prior to that qualification journey and I think she was feted. Yeah she got the golden ball around they give to the tournaments legends and people who have made history so she got that alongside with the Tunisian player who is 42 years old and the old guy from Kodivua Konate. How does it feel considering it's a male dominated field? How does it feel?  I don't think she's intimidated she's been coaching men teams for a while probably the whole of her career so I don't think she's intimidated by the presence of you know intimidated by a male dominated sport and being able to coach men because as you can see she's confident every time and she's very passionate when she's watching the game she's involved she's engaged in the game so I think she's doing just fine. Can you also say teamwork has been a key factor in terms of breakthrough for the team because when someone watches you guys they blend and you know sort of how you relating is quite professional you know the likes of Bushwamukota yourself you know people coming together.  The beauty about the Kenyan morans is the kumbradu and the cohesiveness that we have those guys you know show a lot of love to each other and this is a why we actually win because we are able to pick each other up when somebody is down we are able to we have got next month mentality if we lose today tomorrow is a new team if one guy is out another guy goes in and do a fantastic job and 40 um that was emotional that was emotional I can imagine being there in his shoes at that particular moment especially to a game that we were supposed to win and then we didn't he wanted to win it for his family.  So the draws for the World Cup qualifiers how do they look like? Same old giants with one underdog we are meeting Egypt and Senegal and then I think we have one more they kept right yes yeah so same old big giants and one underdog we do what we do every single time one must fall or maybe two so we know when we get there we are we excited about it it's a new challenge again we forget what we have gone you know Senegal is the only team that we have not beaten and Cape Vard we haven't played them ever so for them when we meet Cape Vard is going to be a battle of two new teams but for Senegal we have a bond to pick three of us were in studio me him and Osoro and you had lost your first game yeah the championship and I think the next game was against Mali the next game was Nigeria that game was against Mali and it was do or die because you had to beat them to ensure that you know to cement your chances of moving to the next step and as guys were sort of pessimistic because Mali also appeared a very stubborn side but what was the what did you do to ensure that you beat them in fact convincingly we had a meeting that night we had a meeting the captain grif called meeting that night and we said guys we are not ready to go home you know in the afro basket you lose the next day you're home so nobody had packed so the guys we are not ready to go home if you pack your bags you guys don't come to the game but if you're still optimistic we are winning the game tomorrow let's go there tomorrow and play like the Kenya morans and people showed up people showed up for that game we are so excited even before the game we just knew this we cannot lose to these guys yeah and the coming on board of you know newcomers those guys who are getting a place in the team for the first time yeah jailing with you know the everywhere you think it's also working for the team it's working albert uh Odero has been one of the best players in uh in the kenyan morans since uh they brought him in and we have derrick who didn't get a chance to play we also have two of our guys who didn't come they had commitments uh with their teams bungay and uh joel uh we expect to have them in the next qualifiers the world cup qualifiers if we can have all these guys together in time and we prepare well for these games i think we can surprise a lot of people can i think i wished sometimes i regret i ought to have been a sports man myself because when i was at the university grief in ligare the captain for the team right now was coaching university men's basketball team and that guy is not agi evergreen evergreen is not agi because i was asking myself one of the guys i was in school with how come this guy is you know is evergreen and his ad work is industriousness determination for the team is unmatched i think it's just the sport is a beautiful thing yeah it is you know the work you put in you know it translates in the game yeah take you you take care of your body well you know you have that drive you have that passion once you get attached to a certain type of game i don't think anything kills it and playing it you know learning more about it and hitting walls you know that gives you the drive to go forward and and also once you make it from sports you go you play under the limelights and everything and you get nicknames like the doctor and you just become a superstar some people mistake him as someone who might have pursued medicine as a cause oh a great leader griffin ligara is a great leader uh everybody listens to him everybody follows his lead i mean we love him we love him he has been amazing i hope he is not going to retire I had some rumors. We still need leadership in the team to guide the younger guys. Some people like me, we are still not there yet in terms of leadership because we focus more on other things. But for him right now is basketball and he is also a teacher so he knows how to communicate with people and how to handle situations in the team. So I hope he's going to still be around with the team for quite a while. Man you've also been instrumental in marketing the game, publicity of the game on various platforms, various forums. Even you have a website with which you highlight whatever is happening in Kenyan basketball, leagues, national team. How's it been like? It was hard at first but now I'm getting used to it. I have published a magazine. I was coming with one but I met some culprits out here. They have taken over the copies. He disappeared with the magazine but good things are still coming. The issue one is out. You can catch it from our website or our Instagram. Twitter just DM will get it to you. You mean these magazines are not sellable? We are selling them. We are selling them and we are hoping that in the near future we are going to give basketball fans more information and everything they need about basketball. Basketball is also entertainment. It's not just a sport that people want to come and it's entertainment, it's business. Basketball, it's a lifestyle. That's why we normally say ball is life. You agree? Yeah, you agree. Ball is life. And also I think when people are growing, when you go through high schools in Kenyan, you have the high school games. Especially the period between 2008 and 2018, there were some really big names in high schools. There were some really good players but not all of them managed to make them runs or keep on playing basketball. They sort of disappeared there in the middle and they were really good. Why do you think that happens and how many have you seen that have kept playing the game since high school all the way up to the highest level? Let me start with the ones who stopped. I think it's because we haven't professionalized the game and when you don't professionalize the game, people tend to go and hustle somewhere else because the game is not paying them well enough to sustain a living.  Because the game is not putting food on your table so basically you won't play it. But for those who have proceeded, most of them are those who got scholarships overseas and those who have managed to join clubs overseas. And basically hard workers like me who just, we don't know basketball, we just work hard. Like Christian or not? We don't know the game.  So it's really hard here in Kenya to survive as a basketball player. Our league is not sponsored. So you can see how hard that is. If there is no money, people will not play the game as serious as it should be. So that's the biggest problem that we have right now because I think if you walk around Nairobi you'll find a lot of basketball courts. Regardless if it's indoor or outdoor, you'll find a lot of courts and kids are playing the game. But after high school, now life is starting, you're going to college after college, you have to get a job. If the game is not going to pay, you stop. So that has been our biggest cancer in the game. William Musina, promising footballer also watching the show from Longata, is asking how can he get that t-shirt you are wearing? Because it looks beautiful. Available in our website. This one is 1400 shillings. 1400? Even cheaper than the jazz you guys buy for a football instead of promoting local game. And you said the book also it can be found on the website. 700 can be found on the website. Talk to us about the future now, what holds for the game in the future and what the locals called as KBF. And doing to ensure that the game continue getting to another level because it's progressing and we have to maintain the momentum. At the moment, the best thing that has happened to African basketball is NBA and FIBA have come together to bring us the basketball Africa League. This is a stage where players can go and showcase their talent and actually get picked to play in the NBA. Egypt did it with Anas Mahmud. He played for Zamalik. And after the tournament he went non-drafted to Toronto Raptors. So now he is no longer with Zamalik, he is a Toronto player. That's a life changing deal. So I think for Kenyan clubs, KPA did what they did. We didn't get to ball because of logistics. But if we could have gone to the BAL, I think some of the players like 6 or 7 because we did have a good number of players, could have made it outside. So for now, I think KBF should... Do you think that was quite unfortunate? Yeah, it broke my heart. Me too. It broke my heart, broke a lot of people's heart. A lot of players left the team because of that situation. Because that was prestigious and very lucrative opportunity for players to... If you look at... These guys made around 5,000 to 7,000 for 16 days just to be in the bubble in Kigali. That's something that you can do something with it when you come home for 16 days.  And there are other contracts that could have come. So BAL is huge. Players should know now that they have a place. You can look at BAL, you can look at Europe, you can look at NBA.  Now you have BAL, and you have Europe, and you have the NBA. You have stages that you can take. A shorter... It looks like... It's long, but that's a shortcut to market yourself to get there. So the future is bright. You have seen the NBA and FIBA doing a camp in... Yes, they are national football. Yes, there are things like that coming to Kenya right now. These are the things that are making basketball great. So the younger talents should believe that the future is going to be bright. Keep working hard and focus. I believe we are going to have better players in the future than we have now. But I think we can all agree that basketball was a reputable sport in the country some time back. FIBA is being done right now, is restoration of the lost glory. Because the sport was so huge, was so massive and it was so popular amongst Kenyans. To an extent that nowadays, that's also what I was asking. It's very unfortunate that basketball is no longer on TV. Because of the passion people have for the sport. It's so unfortunate that they are doing that to basketball right now. TV coverage also helps in identifying the talents. You never know who is watching. So if they can get coverage no matter which level they play at. Because when you look at where people want to play the scholarships they get to go to the U.S. When you play college basketball or high school basketball in the U.S., everyone in the world can watch it. Even in high school. It's tough unless someone volunteers with them. It's tough. Sister plays basketball in the U.S. Is it attributed to the scholarship? Yes, she is on a full athletic scholarship since three years ago. She started at Tyler Junior College on another athletic scholarship. Then she transferred to Troy University. And she's been making a team of her consistently. My sister is a hard worker. She's a better version of me. She's a hard worker, a better version of who I am. I can say she was blessed with very good genes. So being there she's just dominating year in, year out. This is her last year. She's a senior now. And we are hoping that she can get drafted in the WNBA. She has a chance. She's playing good basketball. And her academics are also good. So I don't think that anything is standing in her way other than herself. So she has a chance to make Kenya proud again. We're talking about Filmas Koran. She's been making Kenya proud appearing on magazines making a team of the season at Troy University in the league. That is a good thing because she will be an opener to opportunities for others to travel abroad. It's already happening. We already have three girls who have already traveled. One went three days ago. So the coaches want to know if there's a Kenyan playing like this. Yes, there are others in Kenya. They're asking where can we get other players like you who can come and make an impact in our teams. So we have more players going. We have more players going to the states right now to play basketball on academic scholarships. That is commendable. So personally, you've much traveled. You've asked several parts of yourself playing basketball in Oman. 16 countries bro. And luckily you get hampered by COVID. Yeah, every time I go somewhere COVID. The last two years I go somewhere COVID happens. So I have to come back home again, stay for a while. Then I go somewhere else COVID, home. So I'm a journey man. How did it happen in Oman? First I only played I think for games in Oman. I also played four in Algeria. So in Oman I get there, I quarantine first for eight days. I'm quarantined. The qualifiers in Cameroon were in two days after my quarantine. So after the quarantine immediately, another flight. I checked out. Come back in after seven days another quarantine. Seven more days. Namaliza, the season starts. Four games in. They tell me the government said we cannot play. So you have to go home. When the season resumes, you'll come back. So they're resuming October 8th. I'll be there on the 24th. But I'm going straight to Abu Dhabi for the tournament. Then after that, I go to Oman and finish the season. I followed the games. You missed the first game but you made the team during the third three matches. You made the team. How is it like in Oman in comparison of basketball there and what is happening locally? This is going to be my fifth season there. Because I've played for, yeah, it's my second home. I've played there for three teams. Sidab, Ali Sidab, Bashair. The one I'm playing for now. And I played for Dofar. I think the facilities, this is where the distance is. Because every club is a franchise. So every club has their own sports facility. Football, basketball, handball, volleyball. There's no sharing. And they're being supported by the government. For us in basketball, if we are traveling, the federation is paying everything. So we don't pay a cent. We don't pay food, we don't pay the tickets, the air tickets, we don't pay anything. We just show up. We show up, we play, we go back home. And they pay for like 15 players, the coaches, the doctors. The federation is paying for everything. So you can see the government there is very supportive. And there is also that thing, the ministry club. The ministry club in Oman is where you finish the league.  So if you keep on winning the ministry club, your club keeps on getting more money. Better players and they keep on building new infrastructure for the game. So you don't need to depend also on the government handouts to survive. So you can see, man. That is something that Kenya should emulate. It's crazy. Instead of giving the money directly because you know someone might do things, put a tournament and put a bunch of money. Let people compete for it. That's what we normally do in Oman. And you know there are huge bonuses for that. The bonus must be like half of your season of money. So you can do a thing or two with that. Do you think that is something that can also be practically possible back home in Kenya? Yeah, it can be. In case it's tried and tested. Yeah, it can be and it can work. But those who will be putting the money, they need to understand the amounts required to actually boost these teams because the country plays in it already somewhere. But for Kenya, if the tournament was like that, was to happen the teams are at a really low level and are mostly financially really unstable. So the amounts of money being put in must be something to really build this club. So that they also give them more heart to go for a huge amount to actually win. That the money put in should match the drive and the passion of the teams. Generally, is it possible for me to qualify for World Cup? World Cup, it's possible. It's possible? Yeah, I win at a time. You know, it's possible. I've seen even football in Kenya. The Arambistas are doing things. Two draws, don't worry about it. You know. The same way, as Morans, few individuals had written us off. Yeah, after the two losses. We've been closer to 30 years without making it to the showpiece. And then we lost to Senegal, Angola. Then we beat Mozambique. Then they say, oh, maybe they have a chance. Then we came back to, we went to come a rune, lost to Senegal. Everybody gave up because they knew Angola was tough. Yes. Six times champions? Eleven. Eleven times champions. Yeah, Angola are eleven times champions. And players that we played with in that game had like nine championships, six, seven. So when we beat them, people were like, wow. So I think anything is possible. Basketball is funny. Sometimes it depends on how you wake up. We can just wake up today and shoot the lights out. If somebody shoots it, it goes in. And the opponent is missing. You are losing that. You cannot win that game. So that you might wake up on the wrong foot and surprise somebody, drop Egypt, drop Senegal, boom. We are in the Philippines for the World Cup. So after the tournament of Afro Basketball Championship, guys have left for their respective clubs. People have already gone. We are back in Denmark. Ronnie went to the States. He is flying to Spain, I think in two days. He got a new club. Albert is flying back to the States. Buzza is already in Tanzania headed to Kigali back to his club. Everybody is gone right now. Yo, he is no longer playing at home? No, Buzza plays for Tigers in Kigali Rwanda. Wow. It's been an amazing interview. Of course, this particular afternoon with the doctor himself, Heryo Lokal Kenyamurant, power forward. Joining us to share his insights with regards to Afro Basketball Championship Transpair in Kigali. Ken, your last question before we leave this wakaholic man. Last question will be, will you say qualifying for the Afro Basket was the greatest moment of your basketball career? No. I think winning a championship still is up there. I won my first championship with KPA. And at that time, my mom was in the ICU. So that still remains up there as something that I worked hard for. I worked so hard for it. I finished the game with so many bruises. We played with Lindsey. Those guys were tough. And at that age? I was really young. And then I was the MVP of the tournament. So I always put that up there. And then Afro Basket, I think, comes there second. You have batting shots? Well, I don't know what to say really, but I can say the game has grown. Kenyans now love basketball. This is something that people couldn't see coming. So it's here, it's now. Let's go and get that World Cup spot. Wow. And you can follow him as he shares basketball information regarding Kenyans, even Kenyans leagues, to you trying to market and publicize the game at the doctor on Tweet of Kozari Local. And even the website, that is the name. Yeah, thedoctorsreport.co.ke. Wow. Thank you for coming to the room and thank you for sharing that develop information with us. It's been a pleasure having you. Good afternoon. Don't go away. Stay tuned. Of course, for those who are passionate about European football, the fan favorite segment, the fans are coming up where we look at the European leagues and what has been trending. Thank you for staying tuned and don't go away.