I'm very pleased that I was coming and he and Sarah both wanted me to greet you and send their fondest regards. Well, they're very close to my heart. I know they are. I know they are. And as I'm sure they told you that we're doing a book together on Jim's life of biography of course what happened to him on March 30th is a major part of it. Yes. So I thought that perhaps we could go through kind of quickly the beginning at the beginning when Jim joined your campaign. I realized that you were not focused on fairly junior staff people. But I recall that John Connelly called Ed Meese and suggested Jim. Yeah. And oh my, he came aboard and he was immediately front and center and very much a part of the team. And he has such, well first of all a great sense of humor but he also had that great gift of knowing whether to push on something or let it die. You know, that 24-hour story that you wanted to correct and you found it was just better if you didn't say anything it would go away. He had a great instinct for that. That's interesting. Did you spend any time with him? Did you have an impression of him during those days? Oh Lord yes. Oh yes.  What, did you remember your first meeting with him or did it just sort of gradually come into focus? I can't say that I can actually pick it out in all that was going on there. But it was a case of when he came aboard immediately met him and he was in the inner circle from then on. His humor was immediately apparent. Oh yes. Was he irreverent at the beginning? Was he irreverent at the beginning? No, no, no it was always good humor and always fit the occasion. I'm sure you remember that it took some time to pick Jim as the right person to be press secretary. And I just wondered if you recall what was going, what was the thinking, what sort of press secretary you were, what you had in mind. Well if you're talking about press secretary in the, in my present job. Yes, yes. I'm always a little superstitious. I didn't get around to anything like that in advance. You know in baseball, I used to be a sports announcer, you know in baseball the pitcher is pitching a no-hitter. You never mention it in the dugout or anything. Because if you do you jinx him and then someone will get a hit. Well I always kind of felt the same way about campaigning. I never made any decisions about what would happen later until we knew what I was going to be doing later. So we never talked about positions in the administration or anything at all. Oh I see. Well I really meant, you know, there was some talk that Jim wasn't quite the right person for the job. And it was, it took quite a while for him to be named and he got a lot of kidding as a result. You remember? Well because that would have been in the whole process then of after I was president-elect and then the total transition period. Yes, that is what I'm talking about. And we had quite a team of people working there and on all of those things. And when he was recommended for that position I didn't have to think twice. It just suddenly came clear that he was the right person. And did Knopfziger, was Knopfziger ever in the running or had he taken himself out of it? The long time ago, isn't it? Yes. No, there were other things, for Lin, not that. And then shortly after we were here and after he'd been here for a while he chose to go, he wanted to go out into the private sector. But no, I'm trying to think what it was we had in mind that he did. Let's see, was he charged a political for a while? That was it, yeah. Tell me if you wouldn't mind your view of the importance of the White House press secretary and how it fits into the scheme of things. Oh, there's so much a part of your life, the whole press corps that it's very important. Even if they're just out of sight, they're just down the hall here, they're an ever present. So they're a presence all the time and nothing is done without having to coordinate their activity. And so the press secretary? Yes, he's very much involved in everything that goes on. What did you think of the job Jim was doing? He was doing great, yes. A question of access is something that came up. I mean it comes up with every press secretary, it seems to be a very important thing. And I just wonder what, did he have complete access? Yes. Well if you don't mind, I'd kind of like to jump to March 30th, 1981. I know it's an extremely painful subject in more ways than one. Yes, definitely in more ways than one and with regard to him, I didn't know until I myself was in the hospital and I discovered that I'd been shot because I didn't know I'd been shot. As a matter of fact, when the shooting started I thought it was firecrackers and members starting to say what is that? And the secret service agent behind me just grabbed me and the car girl was over and I dived into the car from his throwing me. And then he, and this is policy with them, he dived in on top of me. And then, it was only then that I suddenly felt a very paralyzing pain and it was after he had jumped in, so I thought something had happened that I interpreted as that he'd maybe broken a rib or something from the location of the pain.  And just then I coughed and I had a handful of blood and so my prognosis then was that I'd broken a rib but it also pierced my lung and so he told the driver, we started for the White House, he told in the hospital and we started with the hospital and I used up my handkerchief and then I used up his and we got to the hospital and I got out and walked into the emergency room and a nurse met me and all of a sudden my knees began to wobble a little bit and I remember saying to where I'm having trouble breathing, it seemed as if I had to breathe very deeply to get enough air and the next thing I knew I was on a gurney and they were cutting my clothes off and that's when they then discovered that I'd been shot. They'd been very little bleeding from it at all. But I didn't know about Jim and no one brought me up to date on anything other than the fact that I shot and then they wheeled a later, they wheeled a stretcher by me on the way to the surgery and it was Jim and they told me that it was him and of course at that time they were very pessimistic about... You knew that before you went into surgery? I knew it before I went in yet because he'd gone by and then they told me that and so I was very much concerned and that's when I then learned that Tim McCarthy of the Secret Service had also taken a bullet intended for me. Who told you? Who gave you this one? Well I'm trying to think now because well our White House doctor had gotten there and was there in attendance and I'm trying to think well then the agents were with me and it was just through them I can't remember which one said specifically but I began to learn these things. When you were lying in the emergency room you were not aware that Jim was right next to you. He was. I wasn't aware until movement came around. I didn't know that he was right there. Well I'm not surprised. You had an oxygen mask on I believe. They were doing all kinds of things. As a matter of fact I don't think I'd been told then. Maybe they thought that I shouldn't hear those other things. I'm sure that you were in no shape to hear such a thing but I just wanted you yourself looked over. No. You didn't. No but by that time they had me on my back and they had a pipe down my throat and so I was anything I wanted to say I was writing notes. This seems an obvious question but what was your reaction to hearing that Jim? I felt that somehow I was responsible for all that had happened to all the others. I know that Jim was right where he wanted to be. He loved that job. He was thrilled to be doing it. And he hasn't plateaued. He's still making progress. I know we see him every once in a while and can see the progress. I know that early on, not too long after the shooting, things got to be kind of messy in the press office. And I know there was a thought that perhaps Jim should give up his title for a while so that things would be straightened out over there. And I know that just the barest suggestion was made to him and I think this was about a month after the shooting. And Jim just reacted powerfully. Do you know about this? No. You don't? Well, he knew immediately that they were asking him to give up his job. They were just going to discuss it a little bit. Nobody had told that to me because he's got that job as long as I'm here. I thought it was amazing that he reacted that strongly with that much brain injury. But you weren't aware of that discussion? But he's got that job. Yes. Do you think things would have been different if Jim had been here? And how do you think he would have? Well, I hesitate to say about anyone. And I've always, you know, his presence is there. And so I feel that in part that's why things are working well. That's true. It is his staff that's in there, isn't it? That is true. Do you see Jim from time to time? Yes. That where? Oh, the other days. I saw him out here from Mike Dever's going away party. And do you get regular reports from doctors? Do you get a cover overall review every now and then? Well, there's been just now and then, just what you said, the progress and so forth, and good news to report. But we see them enough. Nancy talks to Sarah.  What do you think of when you think of Jim Brady? Well, it's a kind of a montage of memories. I can't pick out some specific incident or anything except that I can visualize him there on the campaign plane. And as I say, those discussions when something broke that you had to discuss, you know, how do we deal with this or something? And he was a great voice of reason on how to handle it. And we all turned to him for his analysis of what should be the procedure. And of course, the humor. He and he becoming Nancy's Y and H. Or is she? Yes. You know about that? I know about that. Yes. Yes, because there were stories circulating. Somehow it got out that Mrs. Reagan wanted, what I remember, as a reasonably good-looking press secretary. Yes, and it wasn't true at all. And they'd sit in the rumors. They said that she wanted someone young and handsome. So when she finally heard this rumor, she started calling him her Y and H. And still does. Yes, that's cute. Well, I talked to her, I'm sure. My prep, she told you I interviewed her earlier. And she denied vehemently that she had ever said anything. I'm such a thing. And she did. But, you know, at some of the times, those things have a life of their own. I don't know where some of them. They're so strange. That one, for example, out of totally whole cloth. You know, in a lot of times, you can find something where it was a misunderstanding or someone overheard only part of a sentence or something. But not this. Just like just recently, we discovered that there was a rumor-running rampant. Get this one. It doesn't have nothing to do with Jim. But up at Camp David, I slugged Lucky, our dog, and knocked her unconscious. Oh, really? I should wear that one. And I should wear. And how could that be? And it died a warning, because obviously it was nothing. I've never gotten mad at Lucky. That's a strange one, all right. Training her a little bit, making and so forth. I've had a rolled-up newspaper, and now I'm then paddled her rear end, which you're supposed to do with it, with a newspaper. But it was the most far-fetched thing I've ever heard. So I guess that's why we haven't heard any more about it. It died a warning. I don't think anybody would believe that one at all. At all. I wanted to ask you about the... The Hinckleys have just come out with a book. A John Hinckleys' parents. I saw his mother in the air the other day, and I thought I heard him say something about a book. Well, they had a big spread in the Washington Post, and I'm not sure why. But in fact, the one thing Jim Brady said to me, he said, we, meaning he and I, had better have as big a spread in the Washington Post as the Hinckleys did. But I just wondered, one thing that was in that interview Mrs. Hinckleys said, that she didn't want people to regard this incident as an evil act. But as a, what are your views on that? Are you... Well, from all of the story and the things that have come out about his infatuation and all of that, it certainly was the... It wasn't an act based on, let's say, well, like a terrorist act or a resentment of me or what I was doing or anything. He was looking for publicity and so forth, born of that infatuation. All I know is that when I asked for a little help for myself in recovery, I asked for it also for the fellow that had done it that he could get well too. That's pretty forgiving, huh? I must say. Tell me, you saw Jim before you left the hospital, I think you looked in on him. Do you recall that? Yes, I do, to see him. Did he... What did he say to you? Do you remember? I know he, at that time, was still having difficulty talking, so it was more, you know, encouraging him and telling him to get well and come back quick. How did... He must have been in pretty bad shape at that point. Yes, yes, he was. And no one was giving any... Were you surprised? No, because I'd kept up in the hospital with asking how he was coming since they had told me. I mean, by his... Taken aback by his looks or... No, Dr. Rougi had kind of prepared me that there'd be a time period there that I'd have to go by. Now, one little... I've talked to Jerry Parr, the Secret Service agent, who threw you into the car. And he says that you did not say, as Lou Cannon has in his book, you did not use...  You said you did not say that. I didn't. Well, he said, and you never talk that way to people around you. Good Lord, I know. Well, I just wanted to get it from you. No, and I had no resentment at all. I knew why he'd dived on me and what he'd done. And as I say, and it was then after that, that suddenly I felt this pain. And no, I said, I think I broke in a rib. Did you... You knew why he had done it. Did you know immediately that there... Did you and he talk about the fact that there had been gunshots as you were going down Connecticut Avenue? Or was it just an assumption? No, I knew... In fact, I got a glimpse of him as I was thrown. Did you really? Yeah, he was so close. He was right there between the cameraman and the front line of the press corps. You got a glimpse of him shooting? Yes, and then knew that... Sorry, everybody running and everything, he was right there and he just... And the fact is that the bullet that hit me carried him off the car and came through the little gap between the door and the car. And it was about... I've seen it. And it was like a coin. It was flattened out and had black paint on it from the car. And so it hit me evidently on the way in when I was diving in. And then the car pulled out very fast and then I... He'd gotten off and he started to tell me he was sorry and I... But you actually caught a glimpse of this man shooting? Yes. Oh, for heaven's sake. Isn't that interesting? And I... So there was no question as to... No. I mean, you didn't need to talk in the car. Well... About what had happened. That's right, and we didn't have any knowledge of what was happening to anyone else. So we went there and...  Yes. Do you remember that? When the blood... Yeah, it started. Because at first, when I said this pain and that I thought it, you know, broken a rib when he jumped on me away, he said, well, I think we'd better go to the White House though, don't you? And I said, yeah. And then came the coughing and the blood and I... My first reaction was, okay, you've heard of that happening, a broken rib pierced the lung and that's why I'm bleeding. And he just turned to the driver and said that you were at Washington Hospital and we sat there and I... Two or three times I complained about that it seemed that I was having to... And that panicked me a little. When you have a feeling that you're getting less and less air, you think, what do I do if one of these times I take that and it doesn't... No air comes in. But... Was it... Pain was pretty terrific? Yes. And I have a hunch that was from the bone. You see, it hit a rib. That's what flattened... Well, the car flattened it out, but it hit a rib and they say that that happens, that that's a kind of a paralyzing pain and then it tumbled down through the lung and they found it about an inch from my heart. I've been going over all the literature and that fascinating article that was done on it and so forth and I will be writing about that to a certain extent. I'm glad to have your first person. Did anyone fill you in though on all the little series of miracles that happen and how much worse it could be? For example, the staff meeting at the hospital? No. Well, all the doctors were just concluding a staff meeting. They were all there. Every level of surgery and doctor connected with the hospital. Otherwise there could have been that gap of having to send for a doctor and so forth, but when the word was brought to them I had quite a surgical staff. It was a big crowd when they came and that was when I said, I hope that they were all Republicans. Yes. Yeah, there are a number of wonderful quotes before surgery and after which I plan to sprinkle through the book. I assume those are all accurate. All those wonderful... It's about that crowd standing around somebody or entertaining them suddenly. See, I just realized I have not asked you what your reaction was just going back a little bit. What was your reaction to the killer tree's incident? Jim Brady's, remember, he ran down the aisle of the press plane pointing out the window at a burning forest fire yelling killer trees, killer trees. Got him into some hot water. Oh, well, but this was... and I thought it was funny, this was after I had cited this very eminent scientist from... I think it was Texas A&M who had cited with all the furor about air pollution and so forth he gave the facts and figures on how much of it was pure nature that if you could wipe out all the man-made sulfur dioxide in the air you'd still have over a third as much as we presently have that is just coming daily from nature. And then I remembered the other one, the fact that haze over the Blue Ridge Mountains that they talk about, that haze is what is known in smog is oxides of nitrogen and that the trees emit it. And so it was one day and the press was after us on things of that kind. I cited the need to have some common sense about environmental problems and not go off in a panic about everything and cited some of these things. Well, some of the press started in on me that I had called the trees killers, the killer trees and so forth. So Jim was just responding to them and their charge. Did you think it was funny at the time? Yeah, I didn't think anything about it. Why did some of our people... Well, he was taken off the plane for a week. Good Lord. And Mark Dever put him back on. I know that for... For heaven's sakes. Well, he was very quiet about it. He wasn't very proud of it, I can tell you that. Well, some things like that, I guess they just never bothered telling me and I never paid attention to putting staff, you know, moved or something between stops. Let me just take a quick look here. What do you think of it? I wish I'd known about it. I think that's pretty funny. Burning the killer trees. Well, I understand you mentioned your movie Hellcats of the Navy yesterday when you were at the Annapolis. And I just want you to know that I saw it and I thought it was terrific. Well, thank you. That and a lot of other of your movies. There was a retrospective when you first took office and I made a point of watching all of them every day and I thought they were all terrific. Well, thank you. I was mad at the studio for the title because it was from a book written by the admiral, one of the top admirals in the Pacific War and the book was Operation Hellcat. And that was all based on a true incident that in the war the Japan was existing totally on the ship traffic across the Sea of Japan from the mainland for supplies and so forth that they must have. And the Navy organized Operation Hellcat in which a whole group of submarines at a given or went in went through the submarine nets into the Sea of Japan to designated spots, sank to the bottom and laid there and waited and then at the moment of the heaviest traffic of ships and everything at a given moment every one of them came to the surface and between them literally wiped out the Japanese merchant marine in that one operation. And Operation Hellcat sounded to me kind of like war's over and I kept remembering that the Navy in the old days used to have an airplane called the Hellcat. And so to call it the picture Hellcats of the Navy I understand your objection. Yeah, the other one, Operation Hellcat would have a little you'd be a little curious about that. The other one sounded like well, are we Hellcats on shore leave or what do they mean? Yes. In doing the scene and all of a sudden she was actually crying for real saying goodbye and as she realized what she was doing then she started to laugh she was crying and laughing we had to say cut and start over again she got over herself. I'll have to watch it again sometime and look for that scene she was good she was really good I was impressed. She had met her she didn't have much time before we got married to to do many pictures over there but those that she did I thought were darn good she did one with Rameland in which he they were both employed at a university and his wife and child there was an explosion in their home and they were killed he started going a direction that was toward suicide and Nancy saw this had been a friend but she was also engaged to someone else and then of course he couldn't quite understand but her concern was and then as it developed as the picture came on it was finally a great scene where she stopped Rameland from the point of suicide and then you learned why she could see this she had come to that same point herself once in her life and she saw all the signs in him Do you remember the name of that woman? Night into morning Night of Night unto morning Night unto morning I have to have a retrospective of her feeling sometime I see I think I do I think I do and I certainly certainly appreciate this I'll try to do a good job on the book I'm sure you will it's a great project wonderful opportunity for me it's been a wonderful thing to know Jim and Sarah and I need all of you especially you need my help oh so I get unwired I see great pleasure me also bye bye


The Equitable Life Assurance Society presents This Is Your FBI This Is Your FBI The official broadcast from the files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation presented, transcribed as a public service by the Equitable Life Assurance Society of the United States and the Equitable Society's representative in your community. There are two ways to look at the future with fear or with confidence. Now if you know that your wife and children are protected against any eventuality if you feel sure that your old age will be independent and comfortable if you are sure your children will enjoy a college education if you can plan to own your own home free and clear if you know these things then you can look at the future with confidence. Now there is one man, a neighbor of yours who has helped many others enjoy this feeling of confidence. He's your local representative of the Equitable Life Assurance Society. In about 13 minutes I'd like to tell you more about this friendly, helpful man and how freedom from worry may be yours with membership in the Equitable Life Assurance Society. Tonight the subject of our FBI file, Kidnapping it's title, The Evil Samaritan. It is the business of your FBI to investigate crimes within its jurisdiction and in the carrying out of that business it is necessary that your FBI know as much as possible about the habits of criminals because crime prevention is also of definite interest to the Federal Bureau of Investigation a recent study undertaken by your FBI revealed a fact which will seem odd to those of you who are law-abiding citizens but there are seasons in crime just as there are seasons in every other business during the fall and winter months the criminal generally concentrates on crimes against property crimes like auto theft, armed robbery and burglary but in the spring and summer months the criminal's fancy turns to people and the fashion is to commit crimes against the person crimes like felonious assaults and murder tonight's FBI file opens in a small private plane that is flying over the desert wasteland of one of our southwestern states a young man seated at the controls of the plane he calls out to a girl who sits beside him Alice, see that mason down there on the left? Yes That's our landmark 20 minutes more and we're at the ranch I'm kind of sorry to hear that I really enjoyed this flight very much I hope you'll enjoy the ranch too Of course I will Dick There's something I think I better tell you right now Yeah?  I know the sweetest guys you'll ever meet I know old man, you're their only son We're engaged And they'll love it I hope so Alice, baby, will you please? Hey Trouble, honey? I don't know Yeah, we got trouble What do we do? Just say where you are, honey I will I think this motor's coming back We're now at about 800 feet I'm going to try to set it down easy You've got plenty of land in the field Miles and miles of desert Business flat as it looks from here If we're lucky, we'll get a good spot Tighten your safety strap, Alice Sure I'm afraid we're losing altitude too fast I'm going to try to set it down right Just level it up a little more Oh, Dick, if we're going to crash Easy, baby Oh, Dick Oh, boy I've seen it fall Yeah Let's take a look Loud under the sand pretty deep, huh? Yeah You think there's people in it, Mike? We'll find out right now Look, see Stayed in one piece anyway Anybody in there? Anything else in there? Just looking around Wait, here's some bags I'll pass them on out to you Okay Here you are Here's the other I got it What about them people? What about them? Aren't you going to search them before we go through the bags? No, I ain't Why not? I'm thinking of lifting the people out too What for? So as we can tend to them What's got any? Nothing Why don't we take what we can here and just leave them be? Take a look at them bags They cost plenty So does a private airplane Well, so what? These here folks must be worth plenty cash We'll get lots more out of being nice to them Well, I don't go along with that Nobody's asking you to, Hank Well, that's how we're going to do it Now, give me a hand Some 50 miles away from the scene of the plane crash In an FBI field office Special Agent Jim Taylor is about to leave on an assignment Say, Jim Yeah, Bill Forget we have an invitation to try out the new police rifle range this afternoon Oh, I'm afraid I won't be able to go out there today, Bill Oh, why not? He came in from the Indian agent done in movie What about? Well, there was a murder committed on the reservation last night Man's body was found early this morning What's the story? The victim was an archaeologist His name was Adams He came in from the east about three weeks ago Planned to spend the summer on the reservation I see Did he work alone? Yeah Well, how was he killed? Stabbing In a fight? Well, I don't know, Bill There hasn't been much evidence collected to date When was he last seen? Yesterday afternoon He was believed to have been in the company of two other men Any idea who they were? Not yet, but I think we have the motive for it What is it? Robbery I understand it was generally known that this man, Adams, carried quite a bit of cash When his body was found, his effects were pretty well ransacked But ironically enough, the thieves never found his money How was that? Well, he wore it in a belt around his waist His assailant didn't search him that closely Oh, Jim, these two men that Adams was riding with sound like pretty good suspects Yeah Yeah, but I can give you a better answer to that after I've been down there Take it easy, mister Huh? Just lies still Oh, where? Where am I? In the cabin Oh Grand leg I think it's busted No How did... Wait Where's Alice? Where's she? Gal who's in the plane with you? Yeah, yeah She's right in the next room How is she? Still passed out What's wrong? Is she injured? What is it? Don't know Help me up I'll go in I told you the leg was busted Who's with Alice? Anyone taking care of her? No Well, why not? Now look We took you both from the airplane Wasn't that enough? I didn't realize that, I'm sorry Very grateful to Okay Is this your cabin? Nope But we're staying in it Oh, where's my plane? About 30 miles Huh? How far from a town are we? About 30 miles Who else is here beside yourself? My brother, Mike Your car? Nope How's it? Oh, could... Why don't you go to town at once? What for? A doctor Young lady who was with me must need one Like so I do too Well, see what my brother say Where is he? Outside Please, would you call him in here? I'll talk to him first Tell him I'll pay him well for his trouble I'll tell him I'll be back That you, Hank? Yeah How they doing? Well, fellas come too Yeah?  He wants a one of us should go into town for a doctor You tell him how far it is? Yeah Said he'd pay you good for your trouble How much? Didn't ask You finished going through their bags? Yeah Find anything? No cash, but I've been reading these letters This fella's family is real rich folks They got a ranch 20 odd miles from here You gonna talk to him by getting a doctor?  I didn't get there I've been working on an assignment with myself Pick up anything down in Moby? Well, I think I have something to work on I was lucky enough to find the knife the killer used Several good prints on the handle What about the two men on horseback? I just got a general description of them Nothing really worthwhile I'm gonna get the knife off to the library right now I say, I'm sending out a set of prints myself Oh, what on Bill? Right after you left this morning, a family named Reed They have a ranch about 20 miles out of town A reporter that their son had left Denver yesterday in his own plane The fiance was with him The plane was to arrive at the ranch early last evening After it was several hours overdue, searching parties were sent out Earlier this morning, the plane was spotted from the air Pilot landed, examined young Reed's plane and found it empty There were blood stains in the cabin and numerous prints of horseshoes around the plane Some clothing was strewn around the ground Would you say that Reed's plane landed? In the Indian Reservation That's why the family called here Did you go out and look it over? Yeah Find anything? Just the fingerprints Well, Bill, I wouldn't say either one of us had an easy assignment Go on in, Hank Okay Hey, where is he? He was stretched right out there and I'd bunk He couldn't have come out, he was right by the door Yeah, but I don't He was probably in the next room with his girlfriend But he couldn't walk, that leg of his would... Look, I told you Yeah Oh, mister, this here's my brother Hello I thought you couldn't walk I dragged myself in here Look, what about a doctor? She's still passed out Yeah, well, you got a doctor? Well, that sort of depends, mister On what? On what you figure it's worth Well, that's unimportant, name your price Okay, ten thousand dollars What? You heard me Ten thousands? You don't have to pay, but we don't have to get no doctor Look, you can see for yourself this girl needs help She's your girl, mister Why don't you have her? Sure, you go get the doctor What? You know that's impossible, you know I can just barely move Then I figure you better pay I haven't got it You can get it easy enough Just write a note to your folks No I happen to know their ranch is right close Tell them to put up the money Hank here can deliver the note They wouldn't stand for that Yeah, then guess the girl don't get no doctor Look, you have horses here I'm going to tell them myself You just stay put No, I told me, let me out No, no And he comes too, Hank You're right to us, folks We will return in just a moment to tonight's exciting case From the official files of your FBI But right now, let's discuss your own case Let's say your income is average Let's suppose you have social security Would that be enough to keep your wife and children in comfort If something should happen to you? Now that's a situation millions of breadwinners must face If that's your problem, then you'll be interested In how Mr. Warren Hoyt solved this same problem Through membership in the Equitable Society Well, I have a wife and three children My income is maybe a little better than average But social security wouldn't be a drop in the bucket To my wife and youngsters if I passed along That's where the Equitable Society comes into the picture You called your local Equitable Society representative Just as you suggested on this program Well, the first thing he did was bring along a chart That showed my wife and me how to figure out How much more we'd need in addition to our social security That's the Equitable Fact-Finding Chart for fathers and mothers It's free simply for the asking Well, then my Equitable friend figured out a plan That would keep my family well fed Well housed and well clothed Until my youngest boy finished high school That's the Equitable Family Security Plan That's right You know something else, Mr. Keating I'd like to say our Equitable Representative is a swell guy Mr. Hoyt, all of our Equitable men are swell guys Equitable representatives are selected for character, intelligence And their attitude towards other people They are thoroughly trained to solve life insurance problems So if you have such problems Family security, education for your children Independence in your 60s or home ownership Call your Equitable Representative There's no obligation Ask him for your free copy of the Equitable Society's Fact-Finding Chart for fathers and mothers He'll prepare a plan that will give you the most For your life insurance dollar You have nothing to lose Perhaps everything to gain by consulting Your local telephone directory For the name of your local Equitable Society Representative That's E-Q-U-I-T-A-B-L-E The Equitable Life Insurance Society of the United States And now back to the FBI file The Evil Samalitan As you have seen aptly illustrated by tonight's case From the files of your FBI There is no reasoning with the criminal mind Or there is neither logic nor compassion In the makeup of the criminal The human being has no dignity as an individual To the criminal Because he has chosen to live his life Outside the convention set up and obeyed By his fellow beings That lack of regard for his fellow man Is the basic reason for the lack of success Of every criminal For one thing is as true in crime As it is in every other field of life And that is that unless we have A common and mutual loyalty We are doomed Because no one person is entirely Self-sufficient To rephrase that point Which the criminal can never understand We are indeed Our brother's keeper Tonight's file continues at the local FBI field office Special Agent Jim Taylor is seated at his desk He has just finished reading a laboratory report Bill Oh, Bill I asked you Come on over here, man, will you? Surely What do you want? Well, this report just came in from the laboratory On the fingerprints you sent? On the prints we both sent them, Bill They're identical What? Yeah, they both belong to the same man Well, what do you know? Who is it? A man named Michael Harvey, also known as Mike Harvey What's his background? Well, he was arrested about 12 years ago For a bank job He's also been in trouble with local police Several states I see He's always worked with his brother His name is Henry Harvey, also known as Hank Well, they could be the two men Who were seen with Adams that afternoon Before he was murdered I would think so, yeah Well, I have a complete description Here on both of them Here, here Oh, thanks You know, they must have come across That disabled plane Yeah And the undoubtedly took young reading His girlfriend along with them That's right You know where they can be found, where they live No, but they're from these parts originally Local police can probably help us on that Yeah Bill, I'll send on an alarm on these men Good, I'll run over and talk to the police How is he, Mike? Coming around Hand me a dipper water Yeah, sure His girlfriend was just moaning a little I think she's coming around, too Leave her in there I don't want him to see her again Until he writes the note Okay Give me the water Yeah, yeah Well done Nice I don't It was still here That's right Where's Alice? She moved out of her room Is she still unconscious? Yeah You still want the $10,000 That's right You feel like writing that note now, mister? Times passing, you know Okay All right, good boy Got a pencil, Hank?  Staying with them Uh-huh What's your girl's name? Alice Alice All right Say, uh, me and Alice is okay I want to pay these good people for helping me Yeah Give the man who brings this note $10,000 Wait, wait, wait Come on, come on You will let you know where we are You got all that? There we are Uh-huh And I then say Don't tell the law about this And mark your name What about a doctor? And they pay the cash, you get one The whole purpose of writing this note Is to get a doctor now Look, just mark your name Special Agent Taylor Hello, Jim, this is Bill Oh, hi, Bill How'd you make out? Well, I spent out Well, then they have no home here Well, someone reported seeing them Down here in the movie The day before yesterday Yeah And they do have horses We say they know the desert country Like a book Yeah Well, then they must be hiding out In the wasteland somewhere Mr. Taylor Uh, excuse me, Bill Yes, Miss Brown A message for you Oh, thanks very much Bill Yeah Hold on a second Will your message just came in? This is from Reed's parents They just received a phone call From a man who claimed he has a note From their son He told them he'd be right out to see them Bill, I'd better get over to their ranch What happened, Jim? Well, I've had a busy two hours You gonna have to Reed's ranch in time? In time to wait What do you mean? The man who called him Never showed up Oh, that's too bad It was one of the Harvey brothers, all right How do you know? Well, when the man didn't appear I questioned the Reed's About the phone conversation They recalled that he said He was telephoning from a drugstore Yeah Well, there's only two drugstores In the village I went to both of them I showed the storekeeper's pictures I see The proprietor One of them recognized the picture The brother called Hank Said that he had made a phone call There earlier And had inquired about a blacksmith shop He'd come on horseback Yeah Yeah, went over to the blacksmith shop The drugist had sent him to Blacksmith told me That Harvey had left his horse There to be shod Said he'd be back in an hour When was all this? Oh, I'd say about two hours ago Did Harvey return? Yeah, he came back in five minutes Blacksmith said he seemed very nervous Urged him to finish the job up quickly And as soon as it was done He rode away Did the blacksmith learn Where he was going? No, but he did say He had a 30-mile ride Well, that doesn't tell us much Well, it could If he hasn't had too much of a head start Bill, I've got an idea This is what I mean Alice Alice, it's all right, baby I'm right here with you Huh? I'm right beside you, darling Oh, Dick Dick, where are we? I'm gonna be okay, honey But the plane, what happened? After we cracked up Two men came along Took us here to this cabin Oh You passed out for a while That's all What happened to you? Why are you stretched out on the floor? Oh, I hurt my leg a little Oh, Dick There's a doctor coming soon We'll both be tended to Oh, what about your leg?  Yeah What about your brother? He's coming back I just seen him riding down the hill Alone? Yeah No doctor? Look, that happens after the payoff, remember? What's he talking about? Nothing, honey What does he mean, pay off? I'll explain it all to you later Mike! Mike! I'm in here Well, how'd you make out? No good What happened? Wouldn't the pay? Did you deliver the note? I'll come Because I seen this newspaper before I went there Look, I picked it right on the front page What for? Knocking that guy off The FBI found out we'd done it But how? I don't know how We gotta blow out of here, Mike, fast Yeah What about them? They stay here Dick, what's this all about? These men wanted money $10,000 Why?  What do you think?  I'm from the FBI How'd you get here? We knew you had a 30-mile ride In as much as planes travel faster than horses We circled in a 30-mile radius Until we picked up your trail And you stupid All right, Bill Let's get these people out of here Tried in federal court For the murder on the government reservation Both Mike and Hank Harvey were convicted and received the death penalty The manner in which the criminals In tonight's case From the files of your FBI were caught Illustrates how little chance the criminal has Competing against the forces of law and order Or in this case The criminals used horses And your FBI employed an airplane With every field of science at their disposal The various agencies of law enforcement Your local police Your state troopers And the special agents of your FBI Have cut the chances for criminal success Down to the barest minimum Have proved again and again That crime is always an unprofitable career There are two ways to protect your family First, safeguard your health Second, safeguard their future Your doctor is the man to see at least once a year To safeguard your health Your local Equitable Society representative Is the man to see to safeguard your future You may be concerned about security For your wife and children You may want to enjoy an independent And comfortable old age You may want to own your own home free and clear You may want to assure your youngsters A college education Whatever your problem Your local Equitable Society representative Is the man to see He's helpful, friendly, and he knows the answers Get in touch with him today Consult your local telephone directory For the name of your local representative Of the Equitable Life Assurance Society In the United States Next week we will dramatize another case From the files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Its subject Flight to avoid prosecution Its title The Frivolous Sisters The incidents used in tonight's Equitable Life Assurance Society's broadcast Are adapted from the files Of the Federal Bureau of Investigation However, all names used are fictitious And any similarity thereof To the names of places or persons Living or dead is accidental Tonight the music was composed and conducted By Frederick Steiner Your narrator was William Woodson And Special Agent Taylor was played by Stacey Harris Others in the cast were Anthony Barrett Ted DeCorsia Lamont Johnson John Stevenson And Kay Stewart This is your FBI is a Jerry Divine production This is Larry Keating speaking For the Equitable Life Assurance Society Of the United States And the Equitable Society's representative And let me remind you that in this national election year One obligation of citizenship Heads all the rest The obligation of every qualified voter To choose his or her candidate To register and to go to the polls and vote Tune in again next week at the same time When the Equitable Life Assurance Society Will bring you another thrilling transcribe story From the files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation The Frivolous Sisters on This is your FBI Stay tuned for the adventures of Ozzie and Harriet There's fun for the whole family When Ozzie and Harriet come your way next This program came to you from Hollywood


In this module, we will talk about the microbial growth kinetics in continuous cultures. As we have seen in our previous modules, the growth parameters, which we can say that kinetic parameters in batch culture fermentation as well as fat batch fermentation. In this module, we will take that what will be the continuous culture that is basically for changing the batch culture into the continuous culture. So, during the batch culture, when there is a exponential phase of the growth, when there is a continuous specific growth rate with respect to the time that affected sometimes due to some substrate depletion. So, we can say that the exponential growth may affect by the utilization of some substrate which we have seen in previous module which we called as limiting substrate. So, in fat batch we see which we only add limiting substrate into the fermentation medium during the fermentation period, but we have no harvest. But in case of continuous culture, as we can see that the exponential growth in batch cultures that can be prolonged by the addition of the fresh medium to the vessel. So, provided that the medium has been designed such that the growth sub that growth is substrate limited mean that growth is affected by some media component. So, that is not limited to the toxin produced in that medium, but that is affected by the depletion of any one substrate. So, we can prolong the exponential phase by the addition of the substrate that we know that that is utilized or exhausted. So, thus we can repeat it. We can maintain the exponential phase until we can utilize the full volume of the vessel mean working volume of the vessel as we have seen in fat batch. So, when there is no more capacity of the vessel which we have already told you that in state fermentation in deep fermentation we can utilize maximum 75% of the total volume of the fermenter. So, when there is a full capacity filled by that medium then we cannot have the provision to add the more substrate. So, if in such case when there is a facility of the overflow mean when we are adding something on other hand we are having some device to facilitate us to overflow then so when we add the medium that is displaced by the equal volume that we are adding. So, from this we can maintain the volume of the vessel. So, by this adjustment in which we are adding and we are something harvesting then we can call as the continuous culture. As we have seen in our previous module when we talk about the types of fermentation on the base of process. So, in that module we have seen with the help of different diagrams that we are adding on a one side and we are harvesting on another side. So, if the medium is continuously we can say that media is fed continuously into the volume into the vessel then there is a suitable rate of steady state mean on one side when we are adding some substrate and we are so harvesting something. So, then there is a steady state mean our flow inside and then and there is a fixed volume of the fermenter. So, in that case the formation of the new biomass so specific growth rate if the mu is equal to the dilution which we are adding that become equal then we can say that there is a steady state no change in the volume no change in the biomass concentration in that fermentation vessel so that is state in continuous culture referred to as steady state. So, you can see by this equation here that the dilution can be expressed with respect to the flow rate and the volume of the vessel that is already filled. So, the initial volume when we start addition of any substrate in the liquid form so the unit of flow rate can be expressed later per hour. So, here we can say that the volume will always be expressed in litter. So, then the units for the dilution is always should be in per unit time which is r. So, the net change in the cell concentration over the time period in the fermentation vessel can be expressed as we have seen that dx over dt is almost is a growth which we can say that mu x so this one we can say that mu x so as well as in a continuous culture that we are harvesting something so we are extracting something from that vessels which we can express as dx so this can be called as the equation that how the biomass concentration exist in the fermentation vessel while we are running the continuous culture. So, when we say that when there is equal dilution rate with the specific growth rate then the state comes when we say that steady state. So, the under steady state condition the cell concentration remain same mean there is no further change in the cell mass concentration so we can write here that dx over dt is equal to 0. So, by adding this dx over dt in a previous equation in a previous slide equation that mu x is equal to dx when we say that dx over dt is equal to 0 then by putting this value into that equation we achieve that mu x minus dx is equal to 0 and then obviously we achieve equation mu x over dx so this can easily be write down that mu is equal to d when mu is equal to d so this is the state when we say that that it is a steady state. So, under the steady state conditions the specific growth rate is controlled by the dilution rate. So, if we maintain the steady state we have our control over the dilution rate which is an experimental variable so when we are running the fermentation in a continuous mode so then we have to control our dilution as well as we have to control over the output. So, in this case we can recall that under the batch conditions an organism will grow at its maximum specific growth rate so therefore it is obviously then when there is a continuous culture that may be operated only at the dilution rate below the maximum specific growth rate. So, in a continuous culture when we say that here that in a batch culture that specific growth rate but in a continuous culture that can be operated through the dilution rate in order to have a below to that maximum specific growth. So, within a certain limit we can say that the dilution rate may be used to control the growth rate of the culture. So, by the addition and we can say that with the dilution rate in the continuous culture can be helpful in controlling the growth rate in a culture how it is it will we will see in the next slide that the growth rate that the growth of a cells in a continuous culture of this type is controlled by the availability of the growth limiting chemical components of the medium because when we say that continuous culture is going on and we are adding some media component which is actually chemicals which provide some nutrients to the organisms. So, we can say that state when that growth is dependable to that chemicals and then by the addition of those chemicals that steady state can be referred as chemo state and this chemo state we will discuss in detail in the later modules.


ok and consultation around compulsory sales orders where your owners are forced to put the market up for sale if it's derelict and they're not doing anything with it so it's not a compulsory purchase there's no it's just you have to put it to the market seems compulsory sales or exactly compulsory sales orders that seems like a really useful practical thing to do to bring that thing to the market and get some productive use put to it so it's cultural and practical and finally i would say is that across the world town centre dereliction or the reverse of that the gentrification and the over the over wealth extraction of town centres are things that drive community wealth building the dereliction in that sense there's not proper regeneration drives it but also does the sense that displacement and people getting pushed out or you're seeing lots of big box retail there's lots of like aggressive land speculation that's also a driver community wealth problem does that lovely balance because it's actually given more ownership and control to local people and local communities in a sense it's your turn experience to share in terms of this particular issue well i think the fact that we're actually getting into the market ourselves were the big developer approach that we had previously failed is really interesting in the sense we're developing 120 million pounds of often commercial regeneration business spaces cinemas and the rest of it and i think that really does set a precedent and does has a has a ripple multiplier effect and other stuff we're looking at is community ownership there's a venue which was a music venue which was going to be sold by the landlord we've encouraged the music venue trust to acquire it in community ownership and the fact that they actually didn't own the music venue was a problem Ed Sheeran played there before it was famous not me back since sadly he's got an invite but it's a real issue the fact that the the you know the small business they didn't actually own the venue the music venue meant that because the owner wanted to sell it for potentially student housing it would have gone out of business so we're looking at that as well also other stuff around working with our anchor partners we're not managed this yet but in terms of empty commercial properties you know former bhs is in the west and the rest which can be in communities for years and years unresolved whether you know the nhs potential as an anchor partner could actually acquire it and do something with it we had a co-vaccination centre in one of our former disused community buildings but something long term there could be positive because anchor partners can do things like acquire you know former department stores that have been out that have been bussed for years and years and just it's a blight on the high street for for years sometimes decades really so just that you've got to be really creative and collaborative with community wealth building and you can do it but i do get frustrated a lot because i think we could do a lot more and communities could do a lot more and institutions can but you need need to have the leadership and the outside the box thinking which i think is a huge challenge with these things to be honest a clear message there angus you indicated you want to come in and then Ian i'm going to bring you in because in the papers you talk about a really interesting piece around another perspective on valuing our building so i'd like to hear you talking about that angus yeah thanks convener it was neils comment about how much of this is really about culture and practice and i mean the midst people quarter is a great example it's kind of standing out there on its own too often it's constantly been referenced as look this is what we can do in the time centre regeneration and also it's been nutritional for the folk down in Dumfries it has been really hard slog and i just wonder whether we can make it just line our ducks up a little bit more and to make it a little bit easier so if the systems at large the council the public bodies that are around that agenda could just nudge the tiller a little bit so that things happen much more easily and the point about are the mechanisms that we could introduce to make the kind of transfer of land easier you know that the consultation around the land reform this speaks to the point about the importance of having cross cutting across all the policy folios because you know land reform has just been published the bills been published a couple of weeks ago and we thought there was going to be a kind of modernisation of of cpo's and also community sales orders it's not not in the bill now somehow community wealth building has got to be the driver for a lot of what's the the land reform bill is and i don't think they're speaking to one another and i think that's really really important i mean it's an early stage we know it's stage one and i guess there'll be a lot of scrutiny and amendments and what have you but i really hope that some of the things that are missed out of the land reform bill that speaks to the community wealth building agenda can be reintroduced i certainly understand that there's a working group on the cso's and cpo's have i think that the government has made a statement that that's getting reviewed so there's work being done on that which maybe doesn't need that need to be in the primary legislation but yeah certainly certainly good points there ian can you come in and just talk a little bit about the the idea of material banks and the potential for for valuable materials for communities yeah i can yeah it's interesting i mean going back to the circle economy so you know the obvious thing is is how do you maximise the value or the opportunity with what we've already got you know so so you know obviously everybody thinks about materials and products but actually our buildings you know buildings in our communities are an asset so they're an asset a clearly an asset whether they're derelict or abandoned at the moment they're they're potentially going to be brought back into occupancy and be used by the community so we people have talked about that already but also that they're valuable materials so they're whether there's brick whether there's steel involved there's other copper wire all sorts of stuff so they actually provide an opportunity you know in themselves as a building obviously to be reused and refurbished but actually how do we maximise the value of that once they've been built whether they exist they're actually we're building new buildings and that's something we've been you know obviously through the circle economy is actually understanding what's in your buildings what are the materials that are there what's the value of that both in terms of its use but also at the end of his life what could it possibly be turned back into in terms of the individual products it might be air conditioning units it might be the infrastructure within it but I actually just might be the component part of the actual bricks that could be reused and refurbished into something else both locally so reconstituted into another building do we actually think about it so do we empower so it's almost like taking an asset register of all of our buildings in a way that's not just thinking about the buildings themselves but what are they made of what's the possibilities of that and could it be refurbished could you take brickwork down and redeploy that into other buildings as you're making them so thinking about the kind of realm the kind of public realm and take a bit more so instead of just knocking something down and then thinking we could use you know we could use it as aggregate could you actually use parts of it in other future buildings and we're beginning to see a little bit more imagination in that space but again there are individual projects there's no real as I call it plumbing established it really makes that part of the thinking that can have the resource thinking a local level or a regional level as well so this is about that creative thinking and trying to understand exactly what we have so it might not be so either so trying to think about the buildings not just as it's a pile of rubble if I knock it down or it's a building that I have to turn back into a retail establishment or whatever there's something in the middle of that we could actually use that and get communities to start imagining the absolute value and see them as kind of material banks and that's not just in the high and that's not just in the kind of towns and cities relevant to this bit of discussion but in the rural aspects as well but at that point just just if I may just because I was going to talk about the infrastructure because Linda's point earlier and just to labour the point I mean you mentioned transport and energy but you know okay we'll use the term waste but that is another massive infrastructure opportunity so I mentioned the circle economy bill the circle economy route map there's going to be transformational change in scotland or how we not just how we manage waste and resources in scotland but how we view waste and resources in terms of climate change in terms of material security supply chain and that's fundamental to the inputs to our economy and that's not so much what happens at the end of life that's how we're going to manage it so we can actually use that to input to the economy that's a massive opportunity for wealth building and I can't labour that point because I can't think of anything more extractive I mean that's what we've been talking about here the extractive industry that is basically our waste system we take all of that value all of those materials whether it's bottles whether it's plastics whether it's steel whether it's rubble whether it's buildings we extract all of that out of our communities across scotland and it goes off somewhere else and we're not sure where that is in some respect but we don't know where that value ends up but it's taken out of our communities so that's what's going to shift over the next five to ten years significantly in scotland and not just here in scotland but at global levels it's not but we're seeing as one of the leaders but how could we really maximise that as an opportunity for you know community wealth building both in terms of jobs in terms of value in terms of ownership getting people because the whole thing about net zero you know if I may is people will say enough like I was at an event here where the economist I'm trying to remember her name Ann Pettifer talked about you know going around renewable wind installations and talking to communities who had turbines up who have invested in turbines but clearly they weren't getting any benefit from them you know in terms of their power because obviously because of the the cost of energy etc like that so one of their kind of feedbacks to Ann was you know so what's in this for us it's the same thing as we shift to net zero we shift to the circle economy we shift in this direction our communities are individual citizens that are going this is all very well this all makes sense but what's in it for us harnessing that opportunity particularly in that from my point of view from the circle economy from the energy from the transport all of this is going to be happening in a net zero world what's the opportunity for individual citizens of our communities that needs to be designed in and I take Angus's point this isn't just a blanket term for what's already happening we need to get that in we need to replumb the economy so this is fundamental to every approach that we do and it's great to see that happening in louise's area and then brobs and and prisoner as well we need to see that but we need to we need to cover the circle economy a bit of it as well not just think about energy and transport and what's already happening yeah I think that's tremendous that you brought in the whole the waste piece and that the kind of value to waste and it really is a shift in conscious consciousness isn't it because we don't really value like I love that expression there's no no such thing as a way and that we really need to to shift our sense of value interesting about jobs is so for everyone I mean we're very good at collection and I congratulate all local authorities for the collection infrastructure but for every job there is in collection of materials for recycling there's another eight jobs follow up that's a repurposing remanufacturing resupply of those materials back into the economy and the bulk of the stuff that we collect here in scotland gets exported out of scotland 75% to 75% of the material other than glass and some organics most of the materials that we collect here in scotland gets exported so we're exporting jobs opportunity and value somebody else's got okay it's getting kept out of landfill so it's good for the environment so we're delivering on climate targets but we're losing the economic opportunity you know and if there's eight jobs in recycling there's another 15 jobs if we get into reuse and repair and these are local jobs I mean I'm again the language is very similar you know the circle economy is a redistributive economy it's not about extracting all of those products materials out of our communities into big factories in the middle of scotland or wherever it's about how do we use those materials at a local level for economic and social opportunity and it's happening I mean it comes back to the point it is already happening in scotland I'm sure in your constituencies I can you know you can point to those opportunities but how do we make this the mainstream how do we make this fundamental to our ecosystem that we want to and we want to have in scotland so it's for the prosperity of not just our places but also our people yeah that's that's certainly very true I'm aware of a lot of small initiatives that really need that that tremendous support Mark you had indicated an interest around net zero I thought maybe it'd be a good time seeing as Ian has started to talk about it that you could come in yeah I mean I think we've kind of skirted round the edges of it this morning about you know Ian you've really honed in on there is such a huge social and economic change in train in terms of both generation and consumption of heat and electricity it's about to really ramp up with the really challenging net zero of ambitions and targets that we have in scotland so I guess the my twin question is one how what is the role of community wealth building in achieving the challenging targets but I think the more fundamental point is how do we actually see that shift away from you know the economic models that we currently have with generation and consumption of heat and power to ones that are beneficial to communities themselves perhaps you've already kicked off on that Ian and maybe come back to you and then walk it up to those around the table yeah I mean I mean I'm always taken by the fact you know in terms of the energy there's good examples of community energy projects already in Scotland so I mean from our point of view when we talk to individual citizens and communities they all want to be part of this the net zero they want to do the right thing I mean people say oh people are not interested they are interested believe me people individually want to take action on climate change you know consistently you know is a high priority for them things that they're worried about things that they lose consistently in the top three if not the top five it's it's something they want to do but they want to be part of it goes back to my point they want something out of it for them in their communities that's it they're part of the system whether there's energy demand or consumption whether it's recycling systems whether it's renewable transport whether it's active transport and travel they want to be part of it they want something out of it so it is about that co ownership how can they be you know how can they be part of the delivery of infrastructure the delivery of services and actually see some of that yeah financial and social benefit coming to them rather than just you know being the users of it how can they actually get something out of it that's where you're seeing the most engagement with people in both the communities that we work with and reuse and repair when they're much more active and that's rather than just using whatever respect the recycling services provided by local authorities or by the private sector it is about how do we get them into the conversations early on and into the design and delivery and ownership you know goes back to Angus's point you know sometimes they're not the last people that are asked there's an assumption that they'll use something or be involved or come along at the end of the day and you know be part of something but they need to be part of the beginning that's all that we've done is it has been how communities have led on that that we've really seen the benefits thanks for that yeah definitely need to get that communities local people leading piece neal you wanted to come in and then i'll come to Angus great question we're talking about community wealth problem which is economic system change practical focused one bit of time yeah but it's economic system change and of course we talk a lot in community wealth extraction but it's about material resource use and extraction fundamentally as well as wealth so it's about replumbing the economic system so that there is less wealth extraction there's less material resource use and extraction and in that we have to look as a nation our history which is based on wealth and material resource extraction from the highland clearances to the oil and gas industry so there is something and there is something quite fundamentally important about community wealth building as a practical corrective tool to end a nation that has been suffered from wealth and resource extraction because it's actually saying the wealth and resources of this country is ours yeah and we need to make sure it works for us within the limits of the within planetary boundaries and so just take one sector a key foundational sector energy in terms of wind and renewables the future in terms of net zero right we cannot use the old tools to fix new problems we can't have monolithic centralized system of control over energy we need to have that distributed ownership and control is key and we're at a very important inflection point I feel that this is a massive opportunity for us not to go down the previous path of the highland clearances and oil and gas boom where wealth and material resources were extracted to actually repatriate this bounty of wind and other renewables to the Scottish people so we genuinely own it and I'm not talking about you know Scottish energy company I'm talking about Scots energy company yeah where there's many communities all across Scotland who own their own the land energy is produced and they distribute it to the communities and in Scotland as a whole and maybe there's a there's mechanisms in terms of a coordinating network body at the Scottish nation so we're only going to achieve the net zero targets I think by placing ownership and control more in the hands of us and that requires less monolithic and centralized energy systems but one that's much more distributed and we have a genuine stake in it okay thank you Angus well I mean in terms of doing something about that very centralized distribution system for the energy I think the horse might have bolted already on that one because the UK government is investing billions of pounds in infrastructure on the national grid to take the power down from Shetland and Orkney and the Western Isles and down into England and that is already underway but having said that you know I mean if community wealth building is about who owns economic activity and the assets that generate wealth then there is a real opportunity within this again it needs to bleed across into other parts of government activity but you know I mean the ownership of community renewables of renewable energy has dropped off a cliff in the last few years it's not happened and that's because it's incredibly difficult to get to financial close all the way through the process so that needs to be made a lot easier but there are incredible opportunities from you know communities benefiting from community benefit payments from from private developers to shared ownership with private developers which is increasingly on offer but 200 ownership that's where the real gains happen and you talked about earlier the Western Isles some of the communities there who are generating millions of pounds relatively to and compared to their community I mean they are ineffective they are community anchor institution they are delivering real social good to their community and beyond and actually almost brings into question who is the local authority you know the community trusts who are developing point and sandwick which is a tiny community in the western Isles is issued a dividend of three million pounds to its community last year I mean and that money is going out to support community stuff and improve lifestyles right across the western Isles so amazing possibilities also in terms of the offshore we haven't really established what the community benefit should be from that but that is you know should be hundreds of millions of pounds coming into the community and the national grid and the infrastructure investment that they are already making is a community benefit fund of well over a hundred million pounds so there is substantial cash waiting out there sloshing around we're not sure where it's going to go and if we're not careful we're going to lose it but it's a real opportunity to create some kind of community wealth fund that can support all of this community acquisition of assets and really drive this agenda forward at a local level and put communities on the front foot you know I was asking earlier where are where is the community voice in all of this well a properly structured community wealth fund could support all of that and it would have that kind of also distribution aspect because I hear certainly in my region there's some communities that get that incredible wealth and others a neighbouring community doesn't have it and how do we actually make sure that everybody benefits from it going to bring in Rob and then Matthew and then Mark go back to Mark he's got a final question thank you very much convener so I'm just really three three brief points and feedback about communities that we spoken to about the prospect of community shared ownership certainly in this instance rather than outright ownership and the feedback isn't I hope they recognize it if they hear this session we're really interested in this we see the benefit of it but we are concerned about governance and risk and the ability to raise the money the unfamiliarity of the market with the opportunity that's available here those three things so far as they are concerned are there at this point potentially insurmountable barriers and realistically they're looking to all of us I think collectively to try and remove them so that they can make a good job of the investment and managing the money that comes in in the way that they're absolutely totally and already demonstrably capable of doing because they already have track records of really some brilliant achievement they just want to be able to step up to the next the next level and they're looking for our assistance to to remove those potential blockages that they see to getting to that point that's what we're looking for how do we remove the blockages Matthew you wanted to come in just really briefly in response to Mark's question obviously it's general election year isn't it and without getting to the party politics of it there's obviously debates about you know GB energy if there is a change of government and if there is that change of government that are then being linked to local power plans which shall support cooperative and community energy really so that is quite interesting the fact that the community wealth building debate seems to be getting on to the national stage in terms of how that might be applied but I do think just in terms of tackling the climate crisis we do need to have a fundamental change in the way we think I think for example the amount that's spent on advertising is very wasteful and I think as a society we become too materialistic in them the way that we think I think trying to change that is a way that we're going to tackle it really it's going to be hard for politicians to do that because I think it doesn't always win votes but it's serious about safeguarding future generations children grandchildren we just can't carry on the way we are in terms of consumption in terms of waste and I think it's how we deliver that change but things like community wealth building and community and publicly owned energy will be a step forward I think that's certainly a good point around needing to change our materialistic direction of travel but also yeah very challenging for us to to really be able to tackle that especially when everybody's looking at their screens and being told the next thing that they need to need to have in their lives to make their lives so brilliant mark you've got a question thank you my next question was about national performance frameworks parliament is about to consider a refreshed version of those and just to ask around the table how community wealth building and tackling the challenge of tackling inequality is feeding into the national performance framework is there anything that we need to do to give that you know higher importance within that national framework to encourage more development on the ground anybody Neil yeah I'm not I was I was for a while in the Scottish Government seconded in and there was conversations around the link in the community wealth building with the wellbeing monitor and obviously feeding into MPF I know where it's got to but in terms of just separate work that I've been doing there's a whole range of national performance that could fit around community wealth building particularly the five pillars and so there's things like you know in terms of finance we'd look at percentage increase in ethical investment and lending decrease in percentage of population facing financial insecurity I could go on but across all the pillars there's a range of things and I think community wealth building in other parts of the world lend itself to that if you like a suite of indicators and performance measures that really start to dig deep into a different economic social environmental destination of our nation so I think there is a the lent community wealth building lends itself to the pillars they're all themes then you've got indicators from there and then that can be aggregated up into what a national performance process framework should be so personally speaking I would like to see community wealth building indicators lords firmly within a broader suite of national performance framework indicators because it's got that route back to the practice and got that's run back to real change to people's lives can I ask you so the national performance so you're kind of saying well so do we need to reverse engineer our performance framework that's one question but the other bit is that you mentioned planetary boundaries earlier and the national performance framework has the sustainable development goals embedded into it so I think there's an opportunity potentially to look at that donor economics or whatever you want to call it piece along with this community wealth building it's a combination of brilliant because it's kind of pulling a lot of strands together now we've got the circular economy element in the local government's review but yeah it's a really good point I'm glad you brought that up and I looked at the extensively at the Welsh government's adoption at a local level of well-being indicators that link to the sustainable development goals and that's great and laudable however I think it's imperfections is it doesn't relate to concrete action on the ground I like to see a DNA or a strong spine that goes to here is what we're trying to achieve as a nation here's the indicators and here's the practical policy and here's the practical action that all relate to that my perception is that in Wales and the adoption of sustainable development goals in other countries around the world including in partly New Zealand is that that spinal connection I'm talking about is not there and I think we need to be we need to be wary of the disconnect between aspirations as a nation and what the hell we're actually going to be doing and that and I think I would be I'm an advocate for community wealth born and I have Angela's is that I believe community wealth born has that connection because it's rooted in fair work economic democracy these key questions around the pillars okay great thanks I'm going to bring in Stephanie with a supplementary and then Linda thanks very much convener um just me you're talking to me you kind of brings to mind a local company that I've got in my constituency acs clothing which somebody might already have heard of who started off doing kilt higher and stuff like that but they've shifted over towards looking at access over ownership and circular economy but the point that I wanted to pick up on something that they're doing is as far as work and recruitment processes are concerned they're actually deliberately targeting refugees neuro diverse people older people people with disabilities people with criminal records we can find it quite hard to get work so I'm just wondering what what kind of opportunities might there be to actually promote that type of thing as well to help reduce inequality sorry I'm butting in sorry what a lovely example I'd like to know more about that I would say as an advocate for plural forms of ownership for inclusive forms of ownership and incidentally I at the moment I independently chair the review on inclusive business models in scotland as part of the onset for action 44 but I would say as an advocate for those sorts of forms is that when you have an organisation in types of firms where there's a deeper level of worker community control and ownership you do date scene you do tend to see greater levels of humanity decency in common sense um and that's the example I gave Ella from California indicative of that an economy that has a high percentage of inclusive ownership models will have an economy unbalance which would be more decent fair and green so we need to encourage more of and I'm sure that company managed to achieve its successes in part in spite of the system we need to have an economic system that makes it really easy for that company to do that what it's done thanks for that thanks for bringing that in Linda and then Ian and I think then we're going to have to wrap up this incredible conversation Linda just coming back on the point about national performance indicators I mean I mentioned earlier about collective sectoral bargain and I think that's something that we still need to want to look at and within the context of community wealth building and thinking about fair work so there's a lot more evaluation that can be done around pay in Scotland secure work in Scotland insecure work how do we move away from that what are the jobs that are destined to not be with us because when we're thinking about just transition there are jobs that we could earmark that are not going to be with us and therefore how do we make sure that the potential that we've got for using pluralist ownership models within energy and other infrastructure to make sure that there is good quality green jobs that we're going to be the future and that we can skill for them and that can be done at regional level as well as obviously national but we also want to look at pay gaps within that I mean Scotland just recently in the latest figures show that the disability pay gap in Scotland has gone up you know so there is you know a more nuanced version of what are the gaps within pay and pay structures that we've got and what's the difficulty within that and we'll keep coming back to the point that obviously strong trade unions mean that we're going to end up with a better pay for people and terms and conditions because one of the things that we're finding is that in work poverty whilst that's a huge issue it's also around the terms and conditions that people are having to work under and being since Covid particularly as work forces have shrunk particularly in the public sector in certain areas the people that are left are being asked to do more and more and more so then take on new initiatives just feels like a step too far so there's something there about the resources and I know we said it's not always about resourcing but actually sometimes it is and the consultation responses themselves note that there was a very strong view that a structural transformation of this scale envisaged in the consultation paper is likely to require significant additional resources now local authorities are not going to be able to see whether it's taken on one community wealth building person who's now gone part time they're not going to make this change unless there is a direction of travel both in terms of leadership political leadership but some funding to do that is well as a point I just want to reflect on quickly as well thinking about you might talk about housing and land I mean one of the things opens trying to do this on their own I mean I've tried it on a smaller scale in other places I mean one of the things that we would ask our Scottish Government to do when we're talking about wealth is to evaluate that wealth how do we actually know where the wealth lies because we haven't evaluated our property in Scotland for a very long time council tax has not been re-evaluated in council tax bans sorry have not been re-evaluated for decades and decades and if also we haven't got a land ownership map so you know there are things and what is the wealth of that land so there's some specific points there there's a role about housing as well when we look at our communities and one of the biggest places that developers are throwing money at is purpose book student accommodation and what is the impact of that and universities as anchor institutions have a role within that to say what do they want where do they want their students housed within communities because students I also do not want to live in these accommodation they would much rather be part of a community so there's a tension there I think amongst communities about when they see that the only thing that's being developed that shiny and new is often owned entirely abroad and it isn't part of their own community and I think just on a very last point if we want people to have agency within communities and in working places to take part in this they have to have the capacity to do so you know and that's partly our job as trade unions and trade union education is to get people organised in workplaces to take part but they have to have access we need to make sure that trade unions have access to workplaces and that they work with employers on data sharing to say where are jobs being created and how can unions be involved but for communities as well we're asking a lot from people who're already pretty knackered to take part in things and have agency you know and often it comes in the individuals who can step up who's got the actual privilege to have time away from work commitments family home care and responsibilities their own abilities physically and mentally to take part so we're asking quite a lot so sometimes there's that imbalance that when we ask people to volunteer there's only sections of society that can actually participate and one of the things that would help around that was actually putting funding in to community development as we see in some smaller places but also specifically into community organising because sometimes when communities come together they come together over one thing and when that when that is either one or lost and it can be either of those outcomes that dissipates it was a transactional thing let's all get together to save a thing to do a thing to stop a service leaving us and they either win or lose and then people walk away we're actually community organising allows for not just that transactional but a much more transformational situation which is longer lasting and in england and wales ironically there is actually the UK government gives some funding to an organisation called community organising and we have nothing like that in scotland there's no funding available and there was research just came out recently about the amount of money that goes into communities projects but not into community organising so i think there's something there that we should look at as a recommendation yeah absolutely we need that soft infrastructure okay i'm going to bring in Ian and then we're going to close because we still have a few little things to do and i know colleagues need to get to other places Ian yeah sorry just a quick point ACS clothing yeah we we know them very well they're kind of a toaster we're a toaster boys of the circle economy in scotland but it is about yeah it's interesting what you say because uh quite a few businesses we work with uh similarly uh employ you know particularly people refugees and asylum seekers come in the country and they also come with skills there's a big thing that we're you know we talk about the circle economy particularly when we think about reuse and repair and acs clothing i have to repair some of the kilts and jackets and clothing that comes back you know there's a big thing people say we don't have the skills anymore exactly we've lost those skills in our communities actually i've you know there's a degree of truth in that and there's obviously investment in that but actually these refugees and people like that who are coming in and even you know ex-offenders and stuff like that are actually got skills skills that are valuable to the new economy that we're talking about here you know and they've got something to bring so you know the more of that absolutely we should be promoting that you know when we talk about you know particularly we talk about the circle economy and that you know about where do these skills lie they lie within our communities the totality of our communities not just the specific individuals who have been to college or training and stuff like that great okay gosh what a brilliant conversation i do feel like we've just kind of scratched the surface in a way i think we've got to some very useful points i think there's some pointers in there around you know and obviously the reason for this conversation is because of the forthcoming community wealth building bill and so you know is there a need for that legislation i think that's come clear but i think there's also aspects around a shifting culture and consciousness in a way around co-operation collaboration working together communities leading potentially as well but lots for us to certainly take away and i think we'll be coming back to some of you and maybe all of you for a bit more detail on things there but it's been really a very rich morning thanks for letting us go on quite a bit longer than we had planned and i now briefly suspend the meeting to allow you all to leave the room. This item on our agenda today is to consider the following negative instruments non-domestic rates islands and remote areas hospitality relief scotland regulations 2024 ssi 2024 slash 55 and domestic rates traditional relief scotland amendment regulations 2024 ssi 2024 slash 59 there's no requirement for the committee to make any recommendations on negative instruments do members have any comments on these instruments nobody has any comments as the committee agreed that we do not wish to make any recommendations in relation to the instruments thank you we're all agreed previously we agreed to take the next item in private so as that was the last public item on our agenda for today i now close the public part of the meeting