Hello everyone and welcome to our retrieval episode, you know what it is, it's the episode number on the title of the video, there it is, and let's talk about, this is the topic of the video is Act 6, Act 2 of Hiveswap, the new thing that came out, let's talk about that. With me is me, Gibb and take, Gibb and circuit, sorry, sorry I'm so sorry and with me today is Steve, the illustrious human arm retrieval. It's really good and that's that's the show, yeah. The podcast that is simultaneously hated by its creators and we'll never die we will complete. Yeah it's the best show it's the only podcast and I'm sorry I'm being distracted by a lot of by a lot of cute girls wrestling I'm seeing in the background unrelated it's Hiveswap is not a wrestling game just so you know but I probably will put the characters in the wrestling game that would be fun all right so so Hiveswap the new act of homestuck arm retrieval what did you think overall well I'm glad you asked Gibbon, Karkit, Circuit, Man, Troll, Alternia because I just so happened to have a video on this very topic over on my YouTube channel called youtube.com slash diva it's a stunning and thrilling review of Hiveswap the game it's very relevant it's gonna get a lot of views and you should view it with your eyes and then subscribe to my YouTube channel and you'll get a very thorough complete objective analysis of the game based on the two hours that I played that's a very thorough that's a very long time to play a game for trust me and it's it's gonna be great that's what I said and yeah I thought Hiveswap was was pretty good I thought I thought it was I thought it was like if you take into account the amount of time it took to exist and the the troubles they had along the way and the fact that homestuck axix was created because Hiveswap and the fact that it was gonna be in 3d which looked great it's not bad but it's I can see why people would be not into it and disappointed but I haven't I haven't heard anyone say that they're disappointed yet so I don't know I think that literally everyone on arm retrieval except for us to said that Hiveswap is gonna be a giant pile of shit and then we were like ah the trailer looks pretty cute though I think it's just gonna be pretty cute and it's like it clearly resembles axix homestuck more than it does act one homestuck and that's a disappointment but it's it's it's it's cute and charming in its own way yeah I mean the trailer I feel like has the worst parts of the game which is the cutscenes which are like especially Jude's face his I mean I don't know what it is about those cutscenes where it's just his big face there is there it is but that's just not that interesting and it's a very small part of the game and I'm glad that that's not really there that much it's a lot more about the cool backgrounds which they don't show enough of in the trailers like those those are like really lovely details stuff it's not like just drawn like nicely it's like so many little things they drew in there like the types of toys that like that they've got the time period they have clues to the time period by like there was this little toy I noticed which was like a 90s cartoon of a shark tough guy is a mutant shark and it's like a very obscure cool reference of a toy that I actually had and I'm like yeah yeah they really thought about basically absolutely everything that went into the backgrounds they should have pushed that more but yeah I think it was pretty cute I liked I like I like when Joey was standing around being scared that's that's what I liked I wish I had seen that straight shark thing in the background I actually had like a different perception of the cutscenes I thought that they were like what a traditional cutscene is as like a reward for good gameplay so it should be like kind of a climax to to the moment but but even then even what I thought it would be it couldn't be because the cutscenes were completely broken and Balden will make your CPU and stutter and like they stutter but the timing of the cutscene doesn't stutter so if your cutscene stutters it will end early and if it stutters and never ever loads you'll get a black screen for like a minute and a half and then you'll go back to gameplay that didn't happen to me but I did have like a couple times when it stuttered and you know it didn't it just it loaded the very end and I'm like oh okay I guess he did something happened but I can't rewatch it so I have to play the whole game again I guess to know what happened I mean I can piece it together but it's like I don't they don't feel like much of a reward because some of them like really just there's two two frames two two images they're switching between and then others are like actually animations so I don't know yeah I couldn't I couldn't really tell what was going on with it because the game just wouldn't run well on my computer and now we're actually spoiling my video but let's talk about the video game oh my god game it's called HiveSwap and it's $8 on Steam and it's getting decently positive reviews I haven't seen a single review of it except for except for given circuits and what I thought about the game was that it was a video game it was a it was mildly comfy the backgrounds are super detailed I hope I'm fucking lagging out right now say say hey hey okay cool I thought I was lagging out for a second there I mean I wish I could have like appreciated like the the magnificent detail in the environments and exploring everything for flavor text my issue was the game just like wouldn't run very well cuz my computer is a fucking toaster and the flavor text like it didn't like make you laugh consistently but it was like it was charming and yeah it's characterized the character strongly like my video goes into like it's it's it's Homestuck light it's like if you want to if you want to taste of that sort of writing style but you don't want to be overwhelmed it's it's good for that you you get reminded of Homestuck by what by playing HiveSwap you know it didn't lots of things didn't make me laugh but it lots of things didn't make me cringe nothing made me cringe I think it was just sort of like yeah you nearly got there you know there's a couple times when there's like nothing you didn't really do well but like like those there was that one bit where it's like um obviously they wanted it to be like a funny meme moment where Joey gets the cracker and it's like oh the cracker and I'm like okay I mean I just had I just had to click on that shelf that's all that happened for that it's it's like implying that you didn't know to click on that shelf and you were clicking on everything else for ages and then it was a triumphant moment but you could have clicked on it immediately because there's nothing stopping you so it wouldn't have worked in that way for lots of people and it didn't for me yeah there's a few moments where they tried to be funny and it didn't work but most of it is like all right I think yeah I think most of it was just like comfy it was like all right I like this this environment's pretty cool and I look around and I want to click on things I want to get text it's it's very it's very all right and uh you know it might have been magnificent if the game like or and well dude like seriously yeah it's weird how about like the homestuck style itself the homestuck style itself is like anti synergistic to the game lagging because homestuck has animations that are just frames and like is is Jude's tap dancing animation a full smooth animation or is it jagged frames please answer me this because I can't tell you mean joey yeah the girl I'm so fuck joey she tap dances is it is it like it's still it's deliberate her well she like her standing still is just so like three or four frames and yeah um the tap dancing is a couple frames it's it's less frames than you would imagine obviously for like budget and time constraints they couldn't do as many in-betweens but I think the fact that they kept that relatively consistent throughout like walking around and stuff was all right but it's obvious why they did that they just yeah well it is a home it is a very homestuck thing to do I'm just saying that like that animation style really made me quest every single time an animation was occurring with that style I'm like is my game lagging is it happening right is it is my computer stuttering the animation by like one frame to make this timing like not land because like you know what she does when they do the like the jagged animation normally they're like really fast and kinetic either that or they have like really good timing where they punch but if they lag like just a little bit and that timing is like dead and it just it just looks like a computer dying in front of you which my computer is yeah I mean for me it it didn't lag at all it was just a couple times the it glitched out on the cut scenes only and the rest of the game was like smooth as as it you know it was fine you clicked on a place they go there the text boxes came up the the animations or nothing like fucked up in that way so it was never like wondering whether the game was lagging all right cool so it looked fine when it works I guess that's that's the moral of that like it looks okay it looks good when it's when it's running well I think they're trying to patch it to make it optimize better um I mean I hope they are if that you know they should something they definitely should do every game's got to be patched after it comes out what did you think of alternia the place the setting um I liked it I'm I was trying to think how does this fit into things but um I had forgotten that those drones were like in homestuck I think they were they were like explained as a thing before hiveswap and I'm like oh yeah now I get it yeah um the whole thing with the like they're in a like a low suburb a low place a low blood rust blood bitch blood fag blood area uh where they just nukes are dropped for fun because fuck those guys uh I I like that I like this idea that they're rebelling and this is probably gonna be a big old thing and it's um yeah it's it's I like the story I really want to see who that that mysterious person is at the end that they allude to in the next act I want to see if that's the the the risk of of of hiveswap there's got to be one I am I'm waiting for that yes uh you've finished homestuck years before I believe I haven't yet I'm reading homestuck right now live on arm retrieval guys we're on act six act two right now patreon.com right here right here give me money so my only my only exposure to troll world is pre scratch where everything was just alien and everyone was just an asshole to each other and you really didn't understand like the emotional gist of what of what the kids decision making were partially because they're uh impulsive teenagers and partially because they're troll aliens and we can't understand some of their things just biologically and so it so I'm not sure what to think of when I see alternia and hiveswap and it's like it's literally a normal house that Taboros lives in he just lives in a normal house and he has like pictures on his wall and he has like sports things yeah he's got like the the kick soccer game and all that I mean it's it's basically the same I right I don't know whether this is spoiling anything but I think this is still pre scratch no this is post this is post sketch scratch because like post yeah like um uh the the the original trolls that we never we haven't seen yet the ancestors they scratch their session and um then the world was recreated and doc scratch uh made all the trolls fucking psychopaths to make them stronger so that the next time they go in that doesn't happen and they don't have to scratch and they win the game which is the I think the idea so they're in this version of alternia where there's a lot of racism and weak people are newt uh which is it's it's scary ooh drones coming you know can't cross the street uh at all you'll die can't cross the street without a super speed animal to help you uh it's just like I guess I guess like what I can legitimately take issue with is how is how welcoming alternia looked everything like glows warmly and like if you think back at like carcass house it's like all dim and gray and harsh colors and stuff and it's very alien and all and the structures of the house are even told to be like weird and like designed by a 13 year old or a 12 year old yeah I'm wondering about that like like this is this is years before the trolls we know are around although the ages of like trolls vary by blood so they could have been around I don't know uh but like it it seems like in this suburbian urban environment that the trolls don't build their houses as kids because these are all like pretty uniform they just live here I don't know what the situation is there with that we don't know you could you could just kind of being like a just a watered-down version of homestuck where everything's just a little bit more understandable a little bit more straightforward yeah a little more approachable I just I find that argument though that hive swap is just like watered-down homestuck meant to get other people into homestuck kind of weird because hive swap was funded by fans of homestuck it's it's definitely weird but I feel like like I can see it from a business perspective in that the homestuck fandom grew big and then died out because the homestuck ended or was like went downhill or whatever and um I feel like getting new people just random new people into a game about homestuck would be more sensible because you know uh it would be nice for loads of people to enjoy this game that we're spending years making and money uh we want it to be good for the homestuck fans uh we want to put in a lot of references we want it to be like canon to the series but we want it to be uh something separate so that you don't need to read all of homestuck and then new fans can get into the whole thing I understand the the the decision making there it's just that yeah it is kind of weird that it's it's funded by homestuck fans big old fanboys some of which paid huge big bucks uh and there it's not just end of sentence and then I'll start another one yeah uh yeah so it's pretty understandable to like have a sensible business model that'll keep bringing the bread home so that you can feed your family and live but I'm not I'm not them I'm a very consumer minded person it's gotta be for me everything has to be made specifically for me and for me as hard as possible I want you to go full niche and I'll and and I want your art to be weird and un and unintelligible and still have it on steam yeah that's I mean I definitely approve of that mindset I just like thinking about all the others because like I there's no reason to think oh well it's a business they because like I think there's loads of businesses that I don't care about the businessman behind it so I'm just being like biased because I know that Hussie is a human and he makes art and I'm like oh good good job I guess good well done even though it's it's not really what I wanted I would have liked something with less Tavros in it I mean come on the only troll he's literally Tavros the only troll his name is Zefros it's like the name exactly it is half the name I didn't notice that part in the in the trailer Zefros looks like a suave cool dude he looks like a guy who's down to party and he's he looks like your best bro he looks like your best friend and then when you get into the game like he just like keeps saying sorry to you he keeps apologizing to you but he keeps like oh is this a test I don't know if this is a test man I'm sorry I'm sorry it's like dude you're fucking Tavros dog he's gotta get a spot people like Tavros and Eridan and there are fans of them dude why they're supposed to be hated you don't get it oh well well no it's not oh well I shouldn't be saying oh well I should be saying oh fuck you don't compromise uh well yeah I mean that's why I'm excited to see more trolls I want there to be a huge bitch I want to see what happens with the the fish bitch lady she seems like a good good good a good girl uh I will root for her no matter what happens probably yeah the way she was introduced was a bit eye-rolling for me maybe it's just because the cutscenes stuttering but like I mean like you know she's like oh she's like she's like the she's like the she's like the high school bitch who takes a selfie and then I think to myself wait a minute they just took a selfie earlier selfies are just a thing people take now that's just a thing the normal people do that's not I'm not above selfies hang on you just said that and I was just thinking Joey oh wait no no uh because like Joey's a 90s kid or like an 80s 90s kid oh yeah it's like 1994 in this game selfies wouldn't have been a thing but uh she wasn't the one to take the selfie she was told to do it so that he could see her face so it wasn't like she was taking a selfie but then she did it again later yeah she did it again later of her own accord yeah because I don't know she she wanted to see them both together well it's nice like I understand the sentiment behind it and like it's not a big it's not a big problem it's not a big like it's not a big do selfies were inverted I'm gonna go and kill myself now weren't their eyes like kind of glowy too because of like bad lighting or something on the second picture the eyes a little bit well like you know when you take like a bad picture on like a poor camera like your eyes can like glow red oh did they have like that level of little detail I'm I'm wondering if that happened because if that did happen then it like it kind of justifies it back again even though it wasn't a big problem to begin with like you can justify the fish girl dude for taking a selfie because she's a troll she's a fucking alien dude she just like we can't understand their culture like do trolls had had smartphones way before we did guess they're smart they're way smarter than us oh there's so much more their emotions is so much more complex and dude nuanced and that's why they have a fresh prince of Bel Air literally fresh Prince of Bel Air but it's trolls didn't they already have that and like in Homestuck in Carcass Room was that just Will Smith oh that's what I'm referencing that's what I'm referring to yeah so I just brought up the footage and so Joe Joey's the girl yes oh fuck I'm getting a call from my phone oh is it Joey I'm gonna it is I'm gonna go answer it and you're gonna have to entertain the crowd well I could entertain the crowd or I could cut this out of the video just spending on who's editing this maybe me um oh look it's the my favorite character superman hello it's just it's just me superman I um I'm here to say I really like I really like how I feel it just makes me Joey just told me that she got the selfie idea from from uh from Will Smith the real Will Smith the one from the 90s there's an episode season an episode season three episode 96 of the Fresh Prince of Bel Air uh the Fresh Prince himself Will Smith actually goes through a time void that just like a purified out of nowhere because that's what happens in Homestuck and he just like reaches his hand in because when you when you're presented with a giant hole your first instinct is to stick your dick in fist in full in and then and then he he finds this like weird cold plastic in his hand and he he pulls it out of the time void and it's a fucking iphone 8 s x sx 1080 snowboarding iphone s ex he just like and he just stares at it and he just kind of stares at it and like in on the screen is just his face and he's like really freaked out about it so he just like hits the button and it fucking snaps his picture and he's like oh this is so wack man what the fuck and then he just throws it back to the portal and that's and that's what the heck is Will it's your face I don't never seen that before and he jumps into a ravine and that's how and that's how Joey got the idea to take a picture of herself in a very amicable manner. And that's how Equestria was made. Whoa. I needed to know that.


We have more info on Shadowkeep, including new images of exotic sandbox changes and many more details so hand tight. How's it going guys, my name's DPJ and I'd like to thank you for stopping by and checking out my video. If you do enjoy it, leaving a like really helps out and if you're new around here and enjoy daily Destiny 2 videos, be sure to subscribe. Okay, so the details are further flowing out of packs and today I bring you a summary of what we have found out over the past few days. As I will first state, many of the details today come from the community who have gotten their hands on within the game at packs and have left us feedback on sources such as Reddit and so forth. You can take them with a pinch of salt if you want to but it seems as though many of the details I will cover today are backed up via multiple people. Also to build at packs, although I believe to be the one we will get October 1st with Shadowkeep, again, a bunch of can change things as we know. So first, Cosmo and DMG tweeted out a selfie within the background. We see the sun shot and this we can see has received a buff. Look at that mag size, people 12 in the mag that's literally a 50% increase over the current 8 we see in game right now. So a sun shot it seems will have 12 in a single mag which people in my opinion will make this a top tier PvE weapon, especially within them's solar activities. This small mag size was literally one of the finger in it Dan, but that being sorted, this thing I'm certain you'll see much more of in PvE now. Ok so let's move on to a few sandbox changes we have learned about over the past few days which affect PvP mostly. Ok so the hunter spam tavern now 1 hits guardians upon direct hits and I'm pretty sure we knew this was coming. There's also lots of people referring to the 110 RPM hand cannons that was available at PAX to play with and said the archetype has never felt more crisper, that is great because some of my favourite hand cannons in the game are the slowest fire rate, the 110s. I can also confirm 90 RPM sniper rifles can 1 shot supers to the head, this is amazing. This is for seen on screen now, thanks to Bletchboy7 of Unreddit, he states the following 360 rounds per minute pulse rifle is now 2 burst as each precision shot now does 34 to the head, time to pull my redrix out of my vault people. He says he feels super's health and time within super being reduced. Now we know health has been reduced, seen as the 90 RPM sniper rifles can 1 shot supers and I'm pretty sure Bletchboy7 did confirm that the roaming supers will have a reduced time. Auto rifles felt slightly better, no distractions and the snapshot could be rolled on the same sniper, infusion weapons required a new material, heavy spawns in less sport has shared amongst the team much like in Destiny 1 so that's pretty epic. Now I'm also seeing a lot of people state that it feels a lot like Destiny 1 and nostalgia is definitely there, which isn't a bad thing I do suppose but in my opinion I do think Destiny 2's PvP is a whole heap better than what it was in D1 but that's just my opinion. Ok so we're going to move on from the sandbox changes, we have 2 images of the raid weapons we see the ancient gospel hand cannon and the zealot's reward fusion rifle. The white on these weapons I can confirm is animated by the way, which you cannot see within these images. We also have a better look at the exotic void, a rocket launcher to death Bo-unga, I mean people just look at this damn thing wow, pointed that by a follower on twitter stating it looks like the 1k voices, I can definitely see the similarities for sure. Something about this though reminds me of a crow, it even has a crow's foot as a handle 2, but I do love the design and we all know this thing is an absolute monster, I mean a lot of people referred to this as a void gala horn because we saw it in the shadow keep trailer, that when it was shot at Omnigul it kind of like split into void seeking projectiles but it actually works more like the dragon's breath, you hold the trigger to shoot and you let a go of it and it will spawn these small void orbs that will track an enemy so that's pretty epic. But the design of this thing for damn sure is absolutely incredible and we also have more details and a bog heavy machine gun, this one seen on the screen now. Now we know the weapon fires a single shot explosive round, but one community member states it fires like an instant linear fusion, it has no drop off either, 150 damage to the body and one shot through the head, it's semi automatic and has 3 in the mag with a max of 13, he states it's extremely satisfying to use, I mean it definitely sounds unique that it's for sure and I cannot wait to get my hands on it, I'm pretty sure this is a placeholder name right here, but wouldn't it be epic if Bungie just left this as it's name. But that is it people besides the lance I am seeing all over the internet about the raid, the Garden of Salvation raid, armor being reskins of old school ever-versed gear, I mean I'm going to make a video giving you guys my opinion on this or stay tuned for that, but I do think people are kind of blown this out of proportion, I mean we've had many changes come to the game and Destiny leading up to Shadowkeep including cross save and so much more and I'm pretty certain as well Bungie will have things up their sleeves when it comes to this raid armor, I don't think it's going to be as basic looking as people are believing, but we will see. But guys on that note we have come to the end of the video, just wanted to make a quick video bringing you guys the information we've had come out of packs over the past few days. If you enjoyed the video leaving a like really helps out, if you are new here on Toon and enjoy daily Destiny videos be sure to subscribe and if you never want to miss a video I upload you can turn notifications on by hitting that bell button but guys thanks as always for stopping by and hopefully I will see you on that next one.


I am here with a new review with Holly. So Holly, have you ever voted? I have voted before a few times. All right then. So how does it make you feel to vote? It feels good when I have an absentee ballot or an early voter ballot because I like being able to look everybody up and know that I'm making the right choices. And when I go in person and don't have a ballot beforehand, it's kind of stressful for me because I don't know all of the names on the ballot. Okay then. So will there ever be a different chance to vote? Yep. I'm going to vote really soon. I have my absentee ballot from my parents' home in Lincoln because that's where I'm registered. So I need to fill that out and get it back to Lincoln. And so I'm going to vote very soon. How nice of you, Holly. Oh thanks. Well done. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your questions. Well my opinion on voting is that everyone has their different beliefs about things. And what I think about the president and the vice president is that they have their different beliefs. Basically saying there's no right or wrong. They're just two different guys that are just trying to make the world the way they see it. So people are voting on their opinion basically. They're not really voting on really like what's really the fact and what's not the fact. They're voting on their opinion on two different kinds of leaders. And that's my opinion about voting. Rosie, is this a lesson about education? I would say yes. I think it has an element of education because I think that some of the candidates are focusing more on education in some part. What did you think the education about the environment? Environment. I again think that one of the presidential candidates is has a better focus on environment and is emphasizing that. And I think that is really important because of what our climate is experiencing. And I think that this election is a lot about environment. So Rosie, any as you're kissing about health care? Yeah I think this election also focuses on health care a lot too because especially during a pandemic I think it's important for everyone to have access to health care. And I think that it's a big topic for the election this year. So Emily, have you voted? Yes, I have voted many times before. All right and so how does it make you feel to vote? It makes me feel great because I feel like I'm exercising an important right that I have. All right so do you have a chance to vote? Yes I actually already voted in this upcoming election because I got an absentee ballot and I filled it out and took it to my town clerk. All right very nice. Well Emily, thank you for your time to have an interview with me. You're welcome. Make sure to vote.


Welcome to another episode of Domains 21. I'm fortunate enough to be joined by Lisa Galler-Passette and Suzanne McAllen from Georgetown University. Welcome to you both to Domains 21. Thanks so much. Thank you, glad to be here. Thanks for joining us. So we're gonna talk a little bit today and I'm gonna use one of my handy-dandy bumpers because that's how I do, about taking care, effective labor in digital learning and so Lee, I know that you wrote an article for the EDUCAUSE review. I think it was back like in the height of things, March 2020 was at the 26th, they're thereabouts and so you've published this in the midst of basic panic across global higher ed, but in particular US higher ed. And so what are we talking about when we're talking about effective labor? Is there any way we can start with the definition of that and move from there? Sure, yeah, so this comes from the idea of effective or emotional labor. I tend to use them interchangeably. We can get into a semantic debate around it on another time, but it comes from Arleigh Horthchild's book, A Managed Heart. She's a sociologist and she was really interested in the kinds of invisible labor that service workers do. And so she primarily studied flight attendants and how she defined effective labor is the work that needs to be done to manage your own emotions, there's the managed heart in order to instill the proper emotions from the person that you're working with. And I know that we don't like to, especially in academia, we don't like talking about our role and putting it on the same level as people who labor or the service professions, we're above all of that. But at the end of the day, we're all workers, we all labor. And we do perform levels of effective and emotional labor in terms of our interactions with students, in terms of our interactions with faculty, with our own colleagues, with administrators, in terms of just being able to, again, manage our own emotions and emotional reactions in order to ensure the, in order to not ensure, but to encourage the proper emotional reaction or the desired emotional reaction from the person or people that you're engaging or interacting with. Suzanne, do you wanna add something to that? I would just add that I think it's what you mentioned as the management of emotions is really what propelled us into thinking about how this all played out during the pandemic. And I was fortunate enough to start our summer working with Lee co-facilitating a particular faculty development workshop that we were providing as part of our center. And that's where we started chatting and talking about how the management of our emotions were really coming into play and in terms of our work and how we're in our center's response to the pandemic. Yeah. And so it's just, it's been an interesting, I was gonna say, it's been a really interesting journey in terms of, again, from writing that first piece in March to Suzanne and I actually co-authored a piece that came out recently in a peer-reviewed journal. It's in the journal on centers for teaching and learning on this very topic and just how revelatory in a lot of cases it has been for people because we have managed to give language to something that people have been struggling to try to describe why the work we've been doing during COVID-19 and the pandemic in particular, but also even prior to that, why it's been so hard, right? Why is my job? Why am I so exhausted at the end of the day? What is it that is making my job particularly hard? And so to be able to give language to it, I think it's been really a wonderful experience where people have an understanding and say, oh, that's what this is. That's what the kind of work I'm doing. And then to be able to have conversations around it, I think it's been really a meaningful outcome from all of this, for me in any case, even just our conversations is that, as you were saying. Like we were able to have these meaningful conversations when the work got tough, right? When the work got really tough, we had language to be able to articulate it and then to be able to maybe mitigate isn't the right word, but to work through it in a productive way as opposed to it just being there and stuck in it. It's interesting too, because one of the community we're talking with right now and two is predominantly instructional technologists, learning designers in the academic fields. And I think one of the things you both were talking about was this moment of becoming essential services on campus and thinking through what that means. I mean, I'd be interested in hearing like, what does it mean and how does that change the relationship between say folks who work as what I've often called admin faculty versus faculty and some of the dynamics there. Because I was really taken being an admin faculty and working as an instructional technologist at Mary Washington for over a decade. I was really struck by the way you were both able to articulate some of those tensions that exist. And I know a bunch of people listening to this right now can relate as well. So what does it mean to be essential and like how do some of these dynamics play out in your own work? So Zanya you want to take this one first? Yeah, so that's exactly right. We talk about what it meant to all of a sudden become essential in the work of instructional design and educational development, faculty development where as Dander Little and David Green have talked about educational development being in the margins of any sort of educational ecosystem. And all of a sudden we're in the center and the way that we were, our center was being described by the university was that we were essential but we were also shouldering the development of or planning of helping faculty create and design their whole digital environments for the fall semester, fall of 2020. So that was a big shift in terms of our work with faculty and then also again, going back to this concept of management of emotions, then working with faculty in our community, departmental admins, some graduate students and students really thinking about what the emotions were mirrored in our interactions with everybody within our institutional community and then how are we going to, and we were all mirroring this sense of uncertainty. We didn't have all of the answers to all of the questions but we were using our knowledge and expertise to bring what we did know or what we do know to how to address some solutions and possibilities for teaching and learning. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and one of the keystones of teaching and learning centers but even academic technology centers, academicologists and just the underlying ethos of higher education for any of this support is that faculty do not have to avail themselves of it, right? And so we are built for faculty who want to come to us to work with us. The faculty who want to come and talk about pedagogy, the faculty who want to come and talk about the pedagogical value of incorporating new digital tools but all of a sudden now we are engaging with faculty who have never come to the center before and who have never had any interest in it and it's not like the Marine, it's not that the administration was forcing them but they felt forced by the circumstances to come and get this training that they knew they needed but didn't necessarily want and to engage in some pretty, again, this is where the management and the emotional management comes in is that we're talking about a sort of being twice vulnerable for these faculty. So not only you're talking about something as personal as their pedagogy and asking them, nudging them, encouraging them, hoping that they'll take some self-reflection and self-examination on their pedagogy but on top of that you add a layer of anxiety over the technology itself, right? I don't know how to use the technology, what if the technology goes wrong? I don't understand how this even works, right? Let alone how to integrate into my pedagogy I just don't understand how it works. And so you're dealing with faculty who are really vulnerable not just because of the pandemic and the uncertainty but because of what we are asking them to do and requiring them to do which is something that they're really not used to doing in a lot of cases, right? You have the people who are there and ready and able because they've done this kind of work before but then the majority of the people we saw over the summer in particular were people we had never seen before, right? Never engaged with us, probably have never taken a critical look at their own pedagogy, never thought of incorporating technology in any way shape or form beyond perhaps being able to pull their PowerPoint slide up into the classroom setting. And now we're asking them, we'd like you to engage in active learning and also learn how to use Zoom and maybe rethink all of your assessments and, and, and, and, and, and. So it's a really, not only were we becoming essential but essential in doing kinds of work with faculty who were not used to doing that kind of work and sometimes, you know, actively resistant in some cases. And so to be able to, again, manage our own emotions, to be able to sort of be like, okay, so yes, that is one way to teach the class online in a remote setting. Maybe we can explore some other ones. And they all come in with different expectations with different, you know, levels of experience. And so all of that was a much more complicated process than even our usual day-to-day interactions with faculty in the before times when people came because they wanted to as opposed to feeling that they had to if they wanted to survive the fall semester. And I would just add to that that Lee and I are very familiar with resistance in this work. And we're, and we can anticipate it to some extent and we're able to provide responses to faculty, often evidence-based responses about approaches, you know, the act of learning literature that's really just blown up in the last 10 years that we were drawing on lots of different frameworks and evidence-based practices that we're sharing with faculty in a very condensed timeframe, but the resistance that we were seeing was extremely concentrated. So what we're talking about really is a course design workshop. It was a three-day workshop that we did every week last summer. So from May, so like I said, Lee and I did the first week that we offered this particular type of development. We started together in May, and then I think I did my last one the third week in August. So it was continuous, it was relentless, it was really thinking about, it was exciting, you know, I'm reading, you know, A Paradise Built in Hell right now by Rebecca Solnit, and it definitely resonates with what we were going through last summer in terms of developing this community to respond to what felt like a disaster and we're responding in emergency situations, but it was highly concentrated. And I think some of the resistance wasn't just, I don't really feel like changing my teaching practice this semester, it was more, I don't feel like changing my pedagogy, how I use technology, talking to my departmental colleagues in this way, again, going back to the vulnerability of being seen and visible within a Zoom frame and talking about what you do or do not know. So it was very concentrated forms of emotions that we were interacting with on a daily, weekly basis. One of the things you bring up is both the need, which becomes very clear with the moment of the pandemic, but you also talk a bit about the cost. And I'd be interested just maybe to flesh out a little bit like when we're talking about the cost of this effectively, not only for the folks who are supporting faculty, but for the faculty in relationship to that, what has the cost been, or is it a better word, the toll? I don't know, you let me know. Well, I think there's two sides of it. There is a cost and there is a toll, right? The toll is highly personal, right? And everybody dealt with the toll in their own ways. I'm an extrovert and so it was a very different toll on me than some of my introverted colleagues, let's say, that I've spoken with. It was exhausting, right? It was physically, I would be physically tired, even though I'm sitting in exactly the same spot I was sitting in when I was doing all of these, all of these consultations, all of these workshops, all of these programming, I would be physically tired at the end of the day. I would, and mentally and emotionally exhausted, which takes a toll when you're at home and you're also with your family who are also dealing with a pandemic situation. And that there's a toll to be taken on everyone when I'm home and I leave the room and the kids are there and they're like, mom, and I'm like, don't, right? There's no transition. It used to be I could drive home or take public transit home and you'd have 20, 30, 40 minutes as much as we might lament the commute. It was time to shift gears, right? And to sort of let the day go gradually as opposed to just like opening the door and life is there. And so, and that's not uncommon, of course, that's something that we've all had to deal with working from home and our faculty have had to deal with that exact same thing, but it's, you know, the toll was there. I insisted that we take a vacation to go to a beach, socially distanced and all of that. But like, at a certain point, I was like, I just need to get out of our house because I can't and not talk about faculty development and not talk about education technology. What about you? I think absolutely the toll in terms of working at home, we've read a lot about this in the last years has been, especially for those of us who have children at home, Lee has two children, I have two children at home and working with their issues and emotions as well and, you know, I think it's funny now that we meet for lunch in the kitchen and talk about how our Zoom meetings went and we're checking in with each other continuously around that. So I think there's a toll on that, the blurred boundaries of work and home life and self-care and that's been well documented in the past year and I appreciate everybody that writes about this and tweets about this. I think the cost in the workplace has been sort of this, I would say continuation of thinking about what are some of the new ways that we can support faculty? How do we evolve the type of support that we're providing? And I think there's a cost in that, in the sense of weighing whether we continue supporting faculty as we have been doing and having conversations and just being there, we're very visible, we're very present and we're transparent, but to what extent do we need to keep thinking of new ways to provide support? So Lee, does that make sense to you what I'm talking about? This is cost of, I don't feel like we need to innovate right now, I think we need to continue and to sustain the type of support that we're providing and that we've been really affected that in the last year and sustaining that ethos and taking care of each other so that the toll doesn't increase on us, but also let's keep doing what we're doing because it's working well and we're now essential and I think we are visible, but Lee, I'd love to hear what you think about that concept. Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's like, it's a double-edged sword, right? The bar has been raised. We are now way more visible, but the thing that I find interesting is like the type of visibility that we have is that there is still this, which is why I wanna have these conversations and I wanna write about these things because I think that our visibility has been raised. We appear competent, we appear ready, we appear prepared, we appear prepared. There we go. And that, and it really, we don't wanna talk about the challenges and the tolls it has taken because we have to maintain this appearance of readiness, right? And so I think that there's a bit of a cost there of now that we have done so well, we can't fall apart now, right? We can't show any cracks and that hasn't been articulated or clearly stated, but there is this sense that there's not a space yet, not a good space yet for having more in-depth of these conversations to be able to reflect on what has happened, on the toll it has taken on us, on the impact it's having on our center, on our individuals, on our programming, on our institution.  The cost has been time in a lot of cases, right? The cost has been time. There's no time and there's no space. And those are the kinds of things that I think are needed right now to replenish so that we can continue doing this work and we can continue being effective at what we're doing. So I think that that's been the personal toll and the kind of cost on us collectively. And also to note that it is disproportionately, when we talk about toll, it disproportionately has fallen on women, the research has shown that too, we're doing more work at home, we're doing the emotional labor at home as well as at work. We are doing all of that heavy lifting. And so there's an acknowledgement even of that of the unequal nature of the toll and the work that we have been asked to do both professionally and personally, all of those things taken together. And I'm struck in particular by the idea, Susanna, of like staying within it. Like not as you were saying, Lee, like barreling forward to the next thing now that it's maybe letting up a little bit, let's go back to what we were or move forward to something totally different. And it's interesting because one of the things that I think strikes me about the work you're doing, which is super important is at what point do we know and can we measure is the wrong word, but can we get a sense of like, how that sent recognizing the essential nature of this work, elevating some of the people who were doing it, right? Really finding a way to value within the institution more broadly that time spent and that work done. And I think obviously I want to barrel forward. So I'm part of the problem. So I'm gonna bring it back and say like, like without barreling forward, how does some of that recognition, get not only established, but then celebrated before we start saying, here's the next step, take this on now, right? Here's your next duty. Should you choose to take it? So I'm not sure there's much choice there. It doesn't have to be honest, right? That's the... I think that, so it's important to know that at this point in time, we're still operating without knowing what the fall semester entails. So we are still in this uncertainty zone of waiting and seeing what's ahead for us. But in terms of recognition, we're a very established center. We've candles, the Center for New Designs and Money and Scholarship has been around since 2000. So we're celebrating our 20th anniversary within a pandemic year. So we're fortunate to have lots of tentacles in different committees and different partnerships have cropped up, especially this one weekly meeting that happens with faculty, where we are now seeing as partners in discussing instructional continuity. And we often have a rotating set of colleagues who are there at that meeting to answer questions, field questions from faculty. We're all, now we all go to wait for the announcement of what's happening over the fall. So there are pockets of recognition happening definitely. The more that we're able to be a part, if there are opportunities to be a part of the infrastructure of our university, then there are opportunities for us to then think about how we can have more distributed forms of support going forward and having that recognized as essential to conversations, especially as we're trying to work through what's happening for the fall. Yeah. And I think that that goes generally for higher education, right? It's very siloed, you know, higher education is extraordinarily siloed. Even our own center of new designs for learning and scholarship candles. I always have to think about it. Is we are unique in so far? Yes, we've been around for 20 years. And even then we were ahead of the curve in so far as we are a traditional teaching and learning center, an academic technology unit and the e-learning and online learning unit. So we have instructional designers and education technologists and faculty developers all working together in one center. That's actually not that common at universities. And so, you know, already we're fairly fortunate in terms of the infrastructure of the institution. We're an integrated center, yet still like a traditional teaching and learning center on the margins or academic technology unit on the margins. And I think that this goes for any unit now that is supporting faculty and or students. The pandemic has revealed that we need to be having cross unit conversations about supporting students, educating students, helping students be successful. Our colleagues in student services are also now essential workers and are doing heroic, even more heroic work than they usually do in making sure that our students are okay, even though they're all over the world. And in so many different circumstances and still working really hard to try and build community for the students, a sense of belonging for the students that they're not able to get because we have been entirely remote for the 2021 academic year. So, you know, more integrated overall, like how do we integrate staff into these larger conversations around student success? Where it's not, so where it's happening and you're getting a multiplicity of voices on what our students need to succeed. And I think that the pandemic has really revealed once you take away this, the so-called safety net of campus, particularly for residential campuses. I know this doesn't really apply as much to community colleges or non-residential institutions, but certainly for primarily residential institutions, the faculty in particular have had their eyes open to just how much support the students are receiving on campus and how much that matters to their success in the faculty's classroom and in the faculty's class. Well, that's pretty, I mean, I have to say, thank you both not only for coming here and talking about that, but I just wanna acknowledge your effective labor here on Domain's 21 session. And the fact that you're keeping the conversation around these discussions that, when I did read the articles, the thing that struck me is that these are conversations that are very hard to have in the institution because the institution, like you said, is set up in certain ways, whether you're not working alongside the same people and Candles is a particular group. And I think I saw Eddie Maloney talk about blogs back in 2004 as part of Candles. I mean, it really was a kind of a unique space and a lot of folks didn't have that infrastructure to work from. And watching the work you do and then saying, even we need to slow down, we need to think about what works and stop pretending that this is a year for innovation and taking giant risks. It's a year for healing and figuring out what comes next in some holistic way. So I appreciate the work you're doing, thank you. Thank you. And I think that you're right, these are really hard conversations to have in higher education. We still like to think for some reason that we are rational in higher education, right? We are knowledge workers. And so even didn't say the word, I think I joke that we like, what's the difference between emotional and affective labor? And I said, well, they had to make up a word, they had to come up with affective labor because nobody in higher education wants to talk about emotions, right? Exactly. Except our colleagues in student services where they're all about like the well, socio wellbeing of the students. But elsewhere, right? People don't like to talk about emotions. We don't like to talk about, we are of the knowledge, we are thinkers, we are not feelers, right? And so to really be able to engage in these conversations, there's a gendered nature to it as well, right? Where there's a danger of talking about it, not a danger, but a risk. There is a risk of talking about it as being dismissed as that's a gender thing or a racialized thing. But again, unless we keep talking about it, and I'll keep talking because I know I do. Which you're doing, which is good. Yeah, but it's pushing the conversation forward and giving it legitimacy, right? And working to legitimize it as something that is an important component, it helps us do our work well. It's not always a bad thing, but you still have to recognize it. You have to be able to have a conversation about it. You have to be able to have opportunities to get better at it. It's not something that we're all sort of innately born with that we're like, I'm really good at consultations. So it's like, no, I've taken some time and a lot of practice and most of us have figured it out on our own. And so how can we start moving past just recognizing it and saying, all right, how do we nurture it? How do we grow it? How do we grow this capacity that we now recognize as being so important to us being effective at our jobs and with the ultimate goal of improving student success, right? And that ultimately is everyone's goal, hopefully with an institution. But if we can recognize this element and say, it's not just these bulleted points of very specific technical skills or technical knowledge that you have, but also the socio-emotional skills, right? Soft skills. But let's call it what it is. It's still work, it has a name, affective labor and we can develop it. And so let's think about ways that we want to be able to do that and then again, recognize it, reward it, encourage it and help it thrive and flourish in that way. Rock not rock. Thank you both again for joining us. And we look forward to more. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for coming.