Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Jessica Colligan, and I'm happy to welcome you on behalf of Fairfield's Alumni Relations Office. This is the first event in a brand new virtual series that we are starting called Alumni Stories, Lives That Inspire. And I have to give a special shout out to Caroline Rezykus, who was on the Zoom this evening. Many of you know her from her time in campus ministry. And this series was really her brainchild. And I just want to express how grateful we are to her for helping us get this off the ground. Now, with me on the screen are Father Jerry Blaszczak, who is our alumni chaplain and special assistant to the president, and Eric Clayton, a member of Fairfield's Class of 2011. And Eric is the author of Cannonball Moments, telling your story deepening your faith. And he's also the deputy director of communications for the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States. We are so excited to have Eric here with us to kick off this series. And we know that you're going to find his story inspiring. Now, before we get started, I have just a couple of housekeeping notes. We ask that you please keep your microphones muted to minimize any background noise or distractions. And I also recommend that you use speaker view rather than gallery view in Zoom, just to keep the focus of your screen on Eric and Father Jerry. And finally, we encourage you to use the chat feature to submit any questions that you might have for Eric, and we will do our best to get to as many of them as possible in the time that we have allotted. And now I will turn things over to Father Jerry. Thanks so much, Jessica. And let me reiterate our thanks to Carolyn. We've been discussing this possibility and vetting names. And for Carolyn, it's just a trip down the years of her service to Fairfield University. Carolyn, you've touched so many lives. And it's a privilege for us to offer this series. And it may it also be a tribute to you and to the work and to the effect of your ministry here at Fairfield. So thank you, Carolyn. And Eric, thank you for giving us your time. And thank you to Alice and Kennedy, your good wife, whom you met here at Fairfield. You could be, of course, taking care of Ileana and Canira, but no, she's, she and you have decided that you can give us and your fellow alumni and friends this time. So thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for invitation. Now, as Jessica mentioned, Eric is the author of a remarkably insightful and spiritually helpful book called Cannonball Moments Telling Your Story Deepening Your Faith. We'll say more about this. And I'm going to ask Eric to say more about the title itself in a few minutes. But the subtitle, Eric, is telling your story deepening your faith. So Eric, let me throw it right back at you. Can you tell us your story of how you got to Fairfield? And what was if you were to write the story of your time here at Fairfield? What would be some of the, some of the chapter headings? What would be some of the moments that as you're making sense of those four very intense and beautiful years, how do you tell the story? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. The sense of making sense of the story long after it's happened and continuing to do so. I mean, how I came to Fairfield, that story is probably slightly uneventful. I found the campus, I found the school size, I kind of put it in, how close was it to my home in Philadelphia. And it checked a lot of boxes. And back there, I said, this is great. This is where I want to be. I had been educated in Catholic schools for a long time. And that was a serious part of my life. But I had no familiarity with Jesuits or with Ignatian spirituality at all. So that was a lot of what I discovered at Fairfield. So I mean, certainly that would be a chapter heading in and of itself. So I graduated in 2011, so I entered in 2007. And some of the key things that made up the experience for me were certainly a lot of campus ministry stuff, all the stuff. Certainly, I met Carolyn through Eucharistic Ministers as many folks do. And that was formative. I entered that as a first year student and was all throughout. And then I had the chance to lead, help lead in my senior year. And did a lot of the service immersion trips. I went to Magis in the Philippines, my first summer, which is a real opportunity, really awesome opportunity. So it was a service period in the Philippines. And then we ended at World Youth Day in Australia. And I did other service trips. I went to Nicaragua. I did a research project in Nicaragua. I got to study liberation theology with Dr. Lakeland. And so all of this, you know, kind of began to help me make sense of how faith could inform me as a person. And in my, the things I study, I study creative writing and international studies, which a lot of folks like, well, why? That seems like the two very random things, very disparate things. But for me, I was always thinking in terms of storytelling, which sounds like a shameless plug for the book at this point, but it's true. You know, I thought of storytelling within this context of international studies. Like, what are the biggest stories you can tell? Well, stories that take place like against the backdrop of all of the highs and lows and challenges and sufferings and joys of living in the world.  And I think that was how, where that faith piece became so pivotal, right? Because, you know, what's the story that we tell about ourselves? How do we put ourselves into the world? And what drives us? What's the why that ultimately animates what we do? And I think that's really key. You know, it sounds maybe a little cliche, but I think it's actually a real, like, deep well to mine. That sounds like, I'm sorry, that sounds like a lot of the questions that we, any of us who have worked as mentors or have been involved in the Ignatian Residential College sounds, it sounds like echoes of the three questions. Right. Yes. I forgot to mention my very pivotal time in the Ignatian Residential College. Father Jim Mazick was there and he was a good friend and mentor. And then Father Jim Bowler is still my spiritual director all these years later and we're two very key pivotal people. And those questions, right, were the three questions of the Ignatian Residential College. Who am I? Who's am I? Who am I called to be? Are the questions I used to frame the book and not, again, not because it was a cheap trick or a way out or blatant plagiarism, but because those are questions that continue to resonate all these years later. And questions, it's funny because as I, you know, as I just do my day job and the work I do, there are questions people reflect back. And so they seem like trite questions, kind of surface level questions, and then you kind of delve into them, right? And you realize, oh, these are questions about all the stuff that matters. Who am I? What's the meaning of me? And how does the meaning of me collide into the meaning of reality and what happens as a result? Where does this fascination with storytelling come from? Certainly, and it's evident from everything that you do in your blogs and in your meditations and in your book, it's clear how much you're shaped by the tradition of the storytelling of the scriptures and the example of Ignatius and the spiritual practice that he encourages us to both through the exam and through the meditation on the stories, contemplation stories, but you seem to have storytelling in your blood. Is that, am I getting that right? Yeah, yeah, you know, I always trace it back to my grandmother would tell me stories and not like family stories like passed down like legacy stories, but I have these images, these memories of sitting in the backseat of like the car, you know, like in the Target parking lot, and she would weave these stories of these kind of fantastical creatures and always put me and my friends in the stories. That was always the key bit. Who's in our story today? And I would rattle off these names and then me and my friends would go on these adventures that she would kind of pull out of out of nothing. And that was, in part, I think what started me this love of stories, as well as, you know, a love of science fiction fantasy speculative stories from the big Star Wars guys, you can tell by all the things behind me, Lord of the Rings, all that kind of stuff. So that fantastical nature of reality. You know, we were just at the Renaissance Fair, and my daughters had the chance to see a real live mermaid, which was a real live mermaid, great. Listen, it was the coolest thing.  And I think that that's what like these good stories do, right? They help us to imagine something greater than ourselves beyond ourselves, you know, that they ask the what if. And I think in a lot of ways, right, that's what Ignatius asks us to do when we do this imaginative prayer, right? We sink into Scripture, and we tell a different tale, one that we're a part of, right? Not terribly unlike what my grandmother did for me.  And I think that's, you know, that's that storytelling, I think that's faith. I think that's just kind of, you know, living life with a disposition to the curious, right? And I think that that, yeah, you're right. There's a key piece of prayer in this storytelling work. But there's also imagination that has to be developed in all different facets of life.  It strikes me that, you know, we're very soon, soon, we're going to be, you know, we've had our our mages core in place for about two years now. And we're going to continue to work on the the core curriculum here. And soon we're going to be launching, I understand, a real focus on we promise that Fairfield's going to really make its mark as a place for the arts. It sounds that all of this is of a piece with the kind of education that helped you confirm your own personal vocation as a storyteller and as using story and literature and art and imagination as a way of entering more deeply into the mystery of life and of God.  I think the opportunity to to walk into a classroom where we're doing work in creative writing, right, just you know, conjuring stories out of out of nothing. And then to walk into, you know, an independent study on liberation theology, right, those things seem very different. And yet, there is this sense of how can we imagine something better for the world, right? How can we imagine something new for the world? And I think that there's actually a lot of similarity in that, right? Because because I think good, good justice work, you know, good, anything, good innovation, entrepreneurship, it all, it all necessitates that imagining something new, and then trusting in that story to unravel. And I think what you alluded to earlier, right? Like, do we do we see those pieces as they're laid out in front of us in real time? Most likely not. But as we as we kind of, you know, collect them in, you know, in the past, and then, you know, begin to observe those patterns, and, you know, in the present, you know, then we begin to become more tuned to those things. And that's the work of the examine, right? Thank you. Dorothy, you had a question, but it flashed before me so quickly, I couldn't get it all. Would you like to ask that question directly, Dorothea? Or else just text on me the text again? I don't remember it. Oh, my goodness, you're getting as bad as I am. I have to think about that. But thank you, Jerry. Jess, do you have, do you get the text, if folks send them to us? It doesn't look like it went to everyone. So if you may have just sent that directly to you, so I don't see it. Okay, if you, Dorothea, if it comes back to you, please share. Anybody else want to ask any questions or make any comments at this juncture? Please. Edna Garcia, Paul, I'm sorry. Welcome, Edna. Any other questions at this stage? Now, with this education that you've described, we see, if we leap ahead, we can, we can appreciate, as you've told your story, kind of how you've gotten to where you are now. But there were many intervening chapters, which the exact storyline of which had to have been rather murky at certain times. Is that true, Eric? I mean, it wasn't when you were a graduated from Fairfield. What, how did you construe what your next steps were going to be? Right, yeah. So I had two very divergent opportunities after graduation. I had an internship in international tax law at KPMG, right there in Stanford. And literally the only qualification was the word international, I think, in the title and then in my degree. And so I had an internship that's turned into a job. Or I had been accepted to do a little less than a year of service in Bolivia, just under a year. And that seems to me, the more, it seems logical at the time, oh, I've been doing service immersion. I say international studies, Bolivia is the obvious next chapter. But then looking at the KPMG opportunity, I was like, oh, well, this is a solid salary. This is a good nearby. It's a place that I enjoy living in this area. And so as an international title. And so it was a real discernment process. Which way should I go? And ultimately, I looked at kind of what I, I mean, there are two goods, right? You know, it's good discernment. There's two goods there to look at. But looking at kind of me at the patterns in my life, and bringing that into kind of dialogue with the opportunity at KPMG, I realized, well, this, what I'm appealed to, what I'm attracted to in this job is really just the money and the comfort. Not the challenge, not the, you know, I haven't been like training for this. This isn't what I've been working towards. This is probably, I'm probably attracted to this opportunity for the wrong reason. Whereas the Bolivia piece was, was certainly less, you know, less comfortable, a lot less money. But it seemed to kind of reflect some of those patterns that were at work in, in my story so far. And, and seemed to fit more. And it was more attractive to me in that sense. Oh, like this, this could really deepen some of the things that I've been after. So, so again, I don't want to say like, you know, one was better than the next. I just think one was right for me versus, you know, one was right for somebody else. And so when I went to Bolivia, you know, I entered with, like, I think that was the right choice. And I think looking back now was the right choice. But, but the disposition I brought to that experience wasn't quite right. And so I struggled a lot. I had a hard time connecting with the community and kind of getting over my own, my own sense of what this should be and, you know, my expectations. And so I'll stop there. I don't know if that Yeah, I think, you know, I think it brings us into a possibility for the discussion of why you chose this topic, why you chose this title. Was Bolivia a cannonball moment or did it provoke a cannonball moment? And do you want to say something about why you're using that phrase a cannonball moment? Connected to that is was your Bolivia discernment a failed discernment? Yeah, good questions. So yeah, so I mean, like, so a cannonball moment just for everybody, right, comes out of the Ignatian tradition, if I know everyone almost calls probably familiar with, but you know, I had that sense of saying Ignatius is, you know, goes to battle is struck by the French, the French forces at Pamplona, he has the opportunity to surrender, but doesn't, right? It's his pride that keeps him there.  And in his, you know, he's sent home to will recover. So he has literally cannonball moment is him getting hit in the legs, and being, you know, very much turned around, reassessing his life and how he approaches his life, I think really grappling with the pride that that factors into a story. So the cannonball moment is that kind of trajectory turning a disorienting dilemma. And I think for me in Bolivia, yes, you know, it was a little slower, right? I didn't have any grievous wounds, but there was this kind of slow unfolding of I've come with the wrong disposition. You know, there's a lot of pride or ego, or expectations of other people, not necessarily of myself, or maybe the wrong expectations of myself. And so there, it wasn't a failed discernment, because as I look back, certainly, but even then, it was kind of the clear unfolding of what I had learned in Fairfield. It was a really good challenge to, and kind of a, you know, not everything goes smoothly, right? In a correct discernment, and then kind of fitting it into my story where I've been, it was really important to where I am now. So it was, it was the correct thing, even if I brought the wrong disposition. And I think the key thing for Ignatius' cannonball moment is that recovery time in Loyola, where he has all that time to reflect and pray and kind of hear the whispers of God. And I think for me that really came into factor then the year after, where I was, you know, grappling with these kind of random array of internships, you know, I was in multiple cities, kind of anchor lists, figuring out like, where did I go wrong, all these questions. And that was my opportunity to kind of listen to that whispering of the Holy Spirit. So that was your Loyola, that was your recovery time. Yeah, I would say so, yeah. As you construct the story, what's the next chapter, Eric? So when you look back and say, what was God doing in my story? You know, and Eric, you know, as I hope you all will take the time to work your way through, because it's really an exercise book in the Ignatian tradition, Eric's book.  God was at work in all of that, determined to bring you through that to a new place of greater freedom and greater self-awareness and greater availability to yourself and to God and to others. So when you're constructing, question for Eric, I'm sorry, what was the discernment process actually like? How do you tune into God? The person who asked that question, Eric, you're welcome to amplify that if you wish. Eric Rowland from the class of 97 and thank you for sharing your story. I'm intrigued by many parts of it, but in particular as you talked about that fairly significant fork in the road decision that you made. And I'm curious if there were other things that you did to, again, I phrase it as tuning out the noise and as I reflect on 25 years since graduating from Fairfield, it seems like there's just more noise to contend with in this day and age, but I'm curious what that was like for you, if you recall. Did you go to quiet places? Did you go for walks in the woods? Did you spend time at the Egan Chapel? What was that like for you to tap into that discernment process? Eric, are you asking about his discernment to go to KPNG versus Bolivia? Is that the one you're referring to? Yeah, no, awesome. Thank you. So first you hire Jim Bowler as your spiritual director. And then so I have a very distinct memory. I was an RA in Loyola in the Ignatian residential college that year, first senior year. I remember being in the room and Father Bowler had said something like make a pros and cons list of these things, but then he gave me, let me see if I can find the book. He gave me, this is actually still his copy of this book, Call to Discernment in Trouble Times. And he gave me, I forget what chapter he gave me, but it was essentially the chapter on the two standards. And the two standards is one of the key meditations in the spiritual exercises. And in short, you're looking at the way of Christ and the way of the enemy. And they're marked by these two standards, thus the name. And Christ, the downward path, downward mobility is poverty, humility, rejection. Those are the markers. And then the enemy's path is pride, riches, and honors, I think. And so I kind of made this pros and cons in my dorm room. I wish I had gone somewhere better than that. And I kind of then put them against those two standards. And I still do this instinctively in my own day to day. I just found that so helpful, the two standards meditation. And that's how I really came to realize, oh, what I want out of the KPMG job is really just kind of comfort and money. And those aren't bad things.  But there was a sense to me that I was like, oh, that's not necessarily where I've been coming from. It's not what I've been working towards. Not that I don't like comfort and money. Like I don't want that to be like the takeaway. But once I kind of put them in that, what were the pros and cons? And they just kind of perfectly aligned with like the enemy's standard. Then things became a little clearer. And I was like, oh, I don't know if that's, if I have the right reasons for this. Now, if I had been studying accounting for four years, if I had been, if my family owned an accounting firm, if I had this kind of great tradition behind me that was pushing me towards that. And I did my pros and cons. It was like, oh, like there's a family legacy to live out. Or there's, you know, like I know how accounting can help people, you know, better manage this. Like if that had been on my pros and cons list, then I think the answer would have been different. But I didn't have any of that. That wasn't part of my story. And what was in the story was that sense of international studies, of kind of what's a good story to tell. And I was then thinking about how would Bolivia be interesting kind of raw material for storytelling. And so I think once I, once I kind of layered them that way, that that's kind of how it unfolded. Is that, is that get to it? That's really helpful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that, Eric. Yeah, yeah, of course. Anybody else want to ask Eric for clarification or maybe offer your own view and response to what Eric said? I mean, we've always fashioned in our minds our meeting together as an opportunity to share provoked and inspired, literally inspired by the story of one of us. But please feel free. Okay. That being the case, Eric, next chapter, when you're telling the story to yourself and to us, what are you seeing? What's, what stands out as the mark of this next chapter? Yeah. Or to put it another way, what, what, what, what was the gift that the Lord was fashioning in you and for you and through you? Yeah. I feel like I'm giving away the whole book now. I mean, you shouldn't buy the book still at the book at the book.  So, so I had, when I came back from Bolivia, you know, again, trying to sort through what had happened, I think I had felt a real sense of abandonment by fate. Something went wrong in my kind of faith life. And I want to put distance between that. And so the various jobs I did that following year were very not related to the faith life. And, and sorry, someone says something. Okay.  And I remember eventually, you know, I was, I was getting coming up like empty every time. And an alley, like my then girlfriend, now wife as previously, spoiler alert. The, I think I remember we were away on one weekend or something. And she said, you know, what are you been applying for? And I was like, well, I've just, I've just been avoiding church jobs. And she's like, what does that even mean? Like what's a church job? And I was like, well, you know, I think in my mind, I was like in a church basement kind of a job. I'm just like, what, what have you not been applying for? Like what are the things out there? And I was like, well, there's a job at Catholic Relief Services that sounded good, but I don't want to get tangled up in church stuff. And she's like, well, maybe you should give it a second pass. And so I was like, all right, yeah, I guess you're gonna give it a shot. And, and the first one didn't work out, but there was like two at that time. And, and that was the one I got. I applied for that. And I was like, oh, like actually, I do have these skills, right? Like the storytelling and the international studies was always kind of bolstered by faith and Catholic social teaching. And again, a lot of liberation theology studies at Fairfield. And so I kind of came to that interview at CRS and was really energized by the conversation to like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, I do have the vocabulary and the interest in this. And that would, that worked out. Like, you know, just like that. And so that was, you know, that would, that was a key moment because that kind of ended my kind of wandering days up and down the East Coast and put me in Baltimore where CRS is located. And then also kind of pushed me into, you know, into the next chapter, which, which involved, you know, marriage and, and things like that. Like how, you know, we, it became a place to really build from in, to make a, you know, common story. So that would be, I'll stop there again. Now, Eric, you introduced it. How, how, you know, if this is not too cheeky or to, or to, you know, to inappropriate, how does the story of your marriage and beginning of family fit into the trajectory you've been describing? Yeah, so Ali and I had met. Ali, Ali didn't ask me to ask you that question. I just came up with that. And when we're going to call her down, I can probably ask Ali. No, yeah, I'll tell her to come down. Get her to the conversation.  It was, you know, one of those, one of those freshman year things. But, but I think the key moment, when she stood by you all this while, you get this girl down. Ali, call Ali.  No, she's good. She's great, right?  And it was, I think it was very, again, like me centered in some ways, you know, I think that that's not a bad, again, not a bad option. But, but for me in that moment, it was, again, very focused, I think coming out of Bolivia, like how can I do this for me? I think I, I realized, I think we realized together as we were kind of, you know, doing this kind of two year, we did a year apart, right? She was in Ecuador, I was in Bolivia, and then we did a year apart again. She was in Boston, I was in Philly. And I think it became clear that there was a real desire to like any decision that I was making, and that she was making, we were making together, there was that kind of coming together, how can we, you know, these aren't individual decisions anymore. This is a sense of a common decision, we're trying to figure out together. And I think the more that became clear, the more it made sense, you know, okay, well, we're, we're, this is the trajectory we're on, let's, you know, let's, let's do it, let's, let's kind of deepen it and go further. And that was, that was, that was kind of how that came to be. But then it would be another year or so before we were married. But that was, you know, we had a lot of years behind us. And then hopefully a lot of years ahead. What about discernment? How did discernment fit into deciding to be married? Yeah, I mean, I think there's that same sense of what are the patterns from the past, you know, what's, you know, I think that, and I think you have these kinds of stories being kind of woven together, you know, and I think there's, you know, the foundation becomes more and more evident that you're standing on. And I think you're looking into the, into the future too, you know, where are we headed? I really think for me it was on my side, at least that sense of this, we're, we're already kind of falling more and more into a shared life together. And not falling, that sounds like the opposite of discernment, but we've been making these intentional steps to, to, to deepen, you know, connections and deepen our ties. And, and so it was, I was, I mean, I think that was the where we, where we were going. I mean, I, I don't think I made a pros and cons list. I think it was kind of a, it's just a natural kind of outpouring of, of where we had been into where we were going. Yeah. Thanks, Eric. Eric, you've mentioned a couple of times the name of a man whom many of us in this, in this group have, have great admiration for. And that's Jim Bowler. And you mentioned that he's still your spiritual director. Do you mind saying a little bit more about the role that he's played in your life, or also the role of spiritual direction? And how has that sounds like it's been a real pillar in your, or a kind of a, you know, a steady, a steady, steady force in your own growth. So Jim Bowler and the process of spiritual direction, what has it done for you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of, a lot of stuff, right? I, Jim and I, I think we first met sophomore year, second half of my second year. And, and it was, again, it was kind of a, a fruit of, of kind of a prayer experience that I had had that working on some of the kind of a version of the 19th annotation at Fairfield. And that just, I was working with a spiritual director kind of through that. And then, I don't know, just series of events, I ended up kind of meeting Father Bowler. And, and we connected, I don't even remember how we kind of originally fell in, but it became this, this, this relationship that then, you know, he, you know, I was seeing him with some regularity, sophomore year, junior year, senior year.  So there's a lot of stuff going on in your mind all the time. And, and I think he was a real anchoring force. I think he was able to, the thing that he said that I think really blew my mind was God delights in you. He said that early, he said it often. And I think that sense of God delighting in me, in my story and who I am, who I'm becoming, was just really groundbreaking. And then he gave me, he introduced me to Henry Nowan, the book, the Prodigal Return of the Prodigal Son. We read it together. I think he'd already read it. I read it and he knew what I was talking about. But, you know, and I think that, you know, he kind of, he kind of, I know it's just, he helped me kind of find God in, in my experiences and to, I think, really mature my faith as a college student. And again, like, anchor myself and also grow. And then, and then he's been a, you know, a good friend and resource afterwards. He, he actually married us. He was, and, and he did a, he did a pre-Kana for us, which was again, like so intentional and so just kind of weaving this together. And I think that part of it was, you know, in spiritual direction, you're sharing kind of how, how the spirits that work in your life.  And, and Father Buller is just really good. Maybe, maybe all spiritual directors are, but I don't know. Father Buller is just really good at hearing what you're saying and kind of storing it away and then bringing it back at key moments to help you see the patterns. He was, he was the person he really reminded me that God works in patterns in our lives. Like again, the raw, the raw stuff of our, of our days isn't just like random and to be discarded, but it's actually these moments where we might be able to detect God at work if, if we kind of are able to sort back through it. And so, you know, that was really helpful to me, really powerful to me. And then during the pandemic, so, so we, I mean, we were in touch, you know, maybe a couple times a year. But then during the pandemic, I, I was looking for spiritual director, I needed to kind of, you know, get back, you know, kind of into, into my spiritual life more, more intentionally.   And so that, that began again. And then, and then we, we just did the 19th annotation, which again, I kind of had said, like, you know, do you think I should do this? And he's like, I've been waiting for you to ask. And, and so it just, it's just been, yeah, and because we've, he's known me for so long, he's able to really detect those patterns and remind me of things that I might, you know, not immediately think of. And I think that's, I think that's the role of a good spiritual director is to really kind of reflect back to you, you know, how God sees you, how God is working with you, not to tell you what to do, because he definitely doesn't do that, but to, but to reflect God at work in your life and to, and to help you do the work. And I'm always amazed, you know, over these last many months, we've been doing the 19th annotation, and how much fruit from my prayer is made known in those conversations to the point where I'm like, Jim, I feel like I was, you know, I feel like we're doing all the work here. Like, I feel like I didn't do the, do the homework. And he's like, this is, this is why we talk like so that this year can pull this stuff out of you.  And, yeah, and, you know, so it's, it's, yeah, it's an important relationship. I mean, he's just a one of a kind and, yeah. Let me, let me ask you then what you just described, in effect, what you do with Jim, with Jim Quas spiritual director is you tell your story. Right. And what happens when you are telling the story, and he's listening, and what is he doing with this story? What are the pair of you doing with this story? Well, if anyone is Jim bowler, he usually sits very quietly and forces you to keep talking, which is real annoying when you think you've said everything you want to say. But, but it's so good, right? Because I mean, essentially, what he's doing, right, is there's that sense of going back and collecting the raw material of your life, you know, the immediate past, you know, day, week, whatever it might be, but then going back and putting it in context, assembling the pieces in a way that that you see that you see God has been at work, right? And that you see, I think too, more importantly, is that it's still at work and God is still creating and not just in you, but in the world, right? You know, that creation goes on.  So, sorry, go ahead. That's how you got frozen. But I was going to say, all right, now, you know, so you were, you were reminding us that in spiritual direction, you experience that God is still working. So what's the Lord up to now in this latest phase of your life, where you have to work with these Jesuits? What's what are the patterns that you observe? And how, you know, how, how do you see God continuing to work in you in this most recent phase of your life in your position now, which is a position of great trust and of great influence, and of, you know, of significant public effect. And in your latest phase as husband and father, what's the Lord doing now? How would you tell your, the story of what the Lord is doing now? Yeah. Well, can I, can I just, can I rewind just for one moment? Sure, please. So when I was at Catholic Relief Services, I have a, which I was there for about six, six years in change. And, and I, you know, I would think like, am I in the right place? Is this the right spot? You know, I remember I would take the bus with Hopkins students here. I'm in Baltimore with Johns Hopkins med students. I think, man, like those folks are really doing something like important. These are, these are doctors and nurses and, you know, all these practitioners are saving lives. And I remember realizing, A, that, you know, that sense of wanting to do good manifests in different ways, right? One person's a doctor, one person is, you know, whatever I am doing at CRS. And that's okay. And that's part of that, that, that understanding of your story and then trusting those values to manifest themselves in unique and important ways. And then I remember, you know, one day at CRS, so when I was at CRS, I worked for a long time on CRS Rice Bowl, which is a Lenten program. And I think I realized one day, like Jesus, here I am sitting here writing stories of international consequence for a faith based community, you know, motivated by faith, using faith as an expression for faith formation. I was like, this, this is it. Like I found the intersection. And for a long time, I thought I would do, like, and I'm still very interested in like peace building work and really kind of doing more in the international relations space. But, but then realized, and I talked to some, some, when I was kind of looking for grad, grad schools, talking to colleagues and being like, what do you think I should do? Like, what would you, what would you pitch me as? And everyone says, oh, a communications guy. I was like, really? And it turns out like they were right. So I, I got my master's at American University and International Media, which again was that intersection of storytelling, but across different platforms and international studies.  I mean, great, great organization, right, doing a lot of good work. And I really enjoyed my time there. But then the opportunity to, to work with the Jesuit conference, you know, it was, it was, it was kind of an opportunity that, that materialized and, and it was an even deeper opportunity to engage with, with faith that does justice and storytelling. And so there's still that international backdrop. But, but as you said, you know, Father Blaschek from, from that sense of, of a new kind of mission. And I think what, what animates me most about the work there is that it's, you know, like the Jesuit conference, like folks probably don't know what it is or what it does. It's kind of part of like the governing structure of, of the society of Jesus and the United States and the reports to Rome. It's kind of an odd thing if you're, if you're just like looking at it on paper. But what the mission is, is the mission is the society, like the society of Jesus, the mission is reconciliation in the world. How are we helping folks like find the way to God. And my task is that sense of telling stories that are going to kind of lead people from their own lives, you know, the nitty gritty nits of their lives through the mystery of the world and then hopefully to God. And, and so it, again, it's, it's like to sit here and track back. It makes a lot of sense, right? Of course, I went from A to B to C to D. But there are those moments where I recognized, oh geez, like, like, I think I've like, here's a grace like this, this was a, you know, the culmination of manifestation of, of what I was studying at Fairfield that seemed so random and disparate, but actually, you know, is integral to what I do and who I am now. And then the opportunity to write, you know, to write has been a real, a real, real gift as well. And, and, and I love it, you know, it's a form of prayer for me to, to make it's the literal, what we've been talking about. It's the literal making, taking the raw material, making sense of it in a way that might be helpful to other people, and then just firing off into the void and hoping it does. And that's, you know, that's not, that's an exercise in humility. That's an exercise in rejection, because God knows I get plenty of those emails. And, and it's an exercise in, and I think, hopefully manifesting those gifts. Then you asked about just kind of my life as a, as a father and a husband.  It's, it's great. There's, there's, there's, there's challenges. There's, there's a lot of joys. There's opportunity to really see the world through different eyes, right? And I folks that, you know, have kids or interact with kids or have seen a kid once, like, you know, like, the quiet, like the mermaid thing, right? The mermaid thing is a perfect example of, of, of wanting to go to the Renaissance Fair, which I love. I always go to the Renaissance Fair on my own accord. But then going to this, let me paint the picture, right? It's this enormous tank. And they have these, you know, these, these people in the tank, you know, they're, they're in costume. And, and they're, and they're, they're, they're the mermaids. And you have in front of the tank, that says pirate, right? And he's, he's taking questions about the mermaids. That's not for me. But, but, but like, I'm not going to ask a question, but, but my daughters are fascinated. And so that opportunity to, to see that excitement and that wonder and awe and the curiosity. And in some ways, the, the, that, that sense of like, yeah, like what I, what I hope for is real, you know, through, through their eyes is just super powerful, you know, and it, and it's important. And I think it, it grounds us in like the fantastical. You know, and I think also it's an opportunity to, to check, to check myself when I get frustrated, you know, when no one eats their dinner, or everyone's screaming, or, you know, those are also opportunities for Grace, though less, less pleasant than the mermaid one. Thank you, Eric. Look, I, you know, I want to give a, we're just, we're getting near the end, right? But Eric, I wanted to ask you help us when we think here, we always say at Fairfield that we're committed to our alumni and alumni and to the community way beyond the time when of commencement and, you know, separate from the times when they return for alum for reunions.  What would you want us to be sure that we're still doing, or that we should do better for our students, for our alumni, and for the wider community? Because we always want to be looking at the modus, you know, how can we be more available, more present, more responsive, and provide the best possible education that we can for mission purposes, not just as you say, to give our students the economic needs, you know, opportunities that they deserve, but looking back and looking forward, help us understand from your perspective, because you are so reflective and clearly your education here has meant so much to you in your own story, what would you want us to be sure we're still doing or do better for our students, for our alumni, for the wider community? Yeah, you know, I think there's that sense of, I mean, for me, like, I had no experience of Ignatian spirituality before I came to Fairfield, and so that was really grounding for me, and that doesn't mean everyone needs to do the exercises, but I think it means that folks need to have the opportunity to encounter the God who delights in them, and then a reminder, that God delights in you and everybody else. And so I think that opportunity to meet everybody else who God delights in, and have that reflection of, you know, the people of God, you know, in education, opportunities to travel and see that, and even to experience it on campus, right, I think is key.  I think that's key, and I think for me, like, any work for justice that I do, or like support, or pretend to support, right, is all faith driven, because at the end of the day, you know, I can, you know, get comfortable in my life, but I can never, like, forget that God delights in other people, that God likes in everybody, and that we're all, we're all in this together, right, that I see, you know, Jesus, you know, homeless and poor, right, and I think that that reminder is key, and it makes me uncomfortable as I go through Baltimore, I think that's important, that we have that sense of discomfort, and I think that stems from that faith of God deleting in us, and it ends then in the kind of the nitty grittiness of our lived experiences, you know, doing good in whatever unique way where we're, have the opportunity to do so. Thank you, Eric. Father Jerry, we do have a question, or if he is committed, he says, I am a mentor, so this question relates to the program. If you think back to your experiences, sophomore year, is there anything in terms of activities, mentor program, academic program that you remember as making a difference? Yeah, so let me, I'm gonna be a very specific kind of a random answer. I took a class, one of the classes I took was philosophical Taoism and Zen Buddhism, and it was, we spent half the time like shooting bows right in front of the library, shooting arrows, and to practice Buddhism, and we're like, man, this is an easy A, this is great. And it wasn't a hard class, but honest to God, I go back to, and again, Jim Bowler said to me what I was taking, because I was like, I'm really interested in Taoism, and he said in spiritual direction that you're a sophomore year, junior year, it's important to have an understanding of a faith tradition, of a way, of a religious tradition that is not your own, and ideally isn't even Western. He's like, so he was like, go all in, find, find Jesus at work in that. And I, the whole shelf might follow me, I would take the book off, but I found, but I remember, again, like, you know, we were, one of the books we had to read was the Tao De Jing, and I remember being really like attracted to that. And then I, it was really, some of it was really helpful to me after coming out from Bolivia, because they talk a lot about rejection. There's a lot of like, like, the, the, the, the, the standard of Christ in that. And then I found this book, like this really like kind of random book called Christ, the Eternal Tao, written by a monk of a, of a kind of, I don't know, like a desert tradition, I don't know what tradition, but, but rewrote the Tao De Jing for Christianity. And it became that window, like a different entry point for, for me as a Catholic, to, to more deeply grapple with the, you know, the gospel, right? And then more deeply understand the, the, the standard of Christ. And so like, you know, what started as an easy A has actually probably been one of the most like long-term classes that have been affecting me. And I write about it a lot. And I write about it in that, in Cannonball Moments, I have a, I'm working on another book that there's a lot of that in there.  So that was one thing.  I remember the more obvious answer would be the, the retreats that were really powerful moments to kind of get away and, and grapple with stuff in community.   And the man who, who gives back to the world and gives back to your alma mater. So we are so immensely grateful and proud of you. I can't think, and this is not to cast dispersions about any of the people who are going to succeed you in this series. But if we're going to launch a series called alumni lives, alumni stories, lives that inspire, can't think of a better way to start than having this opportunity to be with you, Eric. So, in the names of Janet Canapa and Jessica and all of our friends here at Fairfield and all those who have been participating. Eric, a million thanks and continue to live the life you do that will inspire us.  Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you everyone for joining us. Thank you, Father Jerry and Eric will be sending out a couple of links where you can find some of Eric's writings. I'll send a link where you can check out his book if you do want to read that. So look for that email in the next couple of days. Father Jerry is the biggest hype man we have. We are just firming off the next date for the, the series. So look for that to come in February and we'll be sending out some promotional information about that in the weeks to come. But thank you all again. I hope you have a wonderful evening and God bless. Thanks again everybody and thank you, Eric.


Hey everybody, it is Christian Buckley doing another MVP Buzz Chat, and I'm talking to David, hello. Hi, how's it going? Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well.  I'm David McCarter. I live in San Diego. I've lived here ever since I was 19 years old. I've been an MVP for 17 years now. I have my own website that's been around one way or the other since 94 called DonnetTips.com. I write many books and I go all over the world speaking and I even host my own show called Rockin' the Code World with Donnet Dave, that we do twice a month now that's run out of India. And that show is super popular. Season three ended at the end of September and we had close to a quarter million people watch. Wow. One season. Yeah. Season before was pretty much the same way and I had one, I was really happy. I had one episode this year. My guest was Carl Franklin who everybody knows pretty much in my world. And we had over 40,000 people watch that single episode. Wow. Yeah. And so I'm really proud of the show and how it's going. And I have just amazing guests on my show and I love doing it.  That's, you know, we hosted twice a month now on Saturday mornings. Yeah, I often tell people too with my podcast and the interviews that I do. It's fantastic to, one, I mean, help spread folks that maybe don't know you that are interested in that space. It opens up the doors to any new people coming through. But just hearing the life stories and the work experiences, I mean, just it's one of my favorite things. Yeah.  I like to do something that somebody else isn't doing. Right. I don't want to do the same kind of show that everybody else is doing that. That to me doesn't get a lot of traction. And so I decided to do more of just an interview show, right. We don't really show code. Right. It's just me and my guests talking about whatever they're passionate about. So I, I encourage guests. I mean, sometimes I do have topics, especially if I do a panel show. But I really encourage a guest to come on and talk about whatever they're currently passionate about. And let's talk about that. It's a little different, of course, when I talked to, you know, pms and Microsoft and things like that they have their agenda. But usually, but usually it's, it's just talking. And we usually have a great time.  And so sometimes we do go off.  Right. And, and so I try to bring those things into, you know, the show like the get the question I ask all my guests the first time they're on the show is what do you do for fun. Right.  You know that, you know, there's a balance we need to do and, and you need to have fun and work at the same time. And, and for me, my fun also improves my coding, right, because to me playing music. Anything creative helps coding. Yeah, right. Especially when you're architecting applications, I think, you know, you need to have a very creative mind to create applications and so those kind of things. All add up one of the best questions I was asked and India wants it. This young woman stood up she was very brave, you know, because women usually in India don't speak up very much.   And all of that all helps my coding and my coding helps the other things, right. It's to me it says a loop. Well there there's something to around. You know, there's data that shows that when you move away from you're trying to solve a problem you get stuck or you know and you're just you find yourself repeating yourself kind of retracing the same mistakes and that going and doing something completely artistic.  Yeah, yeah, I even had a, I had a role once when I was in charge of a software team that, you know, if, if any of the members of my team got stuck on something for 20 minutes, I told them stop. Right, and come talk to me, you know, because not only I might know the answer but I'm trying to give them away from the screen for a little bit.  So, yeah. Well, so what's what do you so for folks that don't know what you're writing about like what are your books about what are you writing about what do you what are you been working on. So I know we were talking just before he started, you've got something on the verge of being completed. Right, so right now I'm maintaining three books that I keep updating. One is called Rock your career surviving the technical interview. That's all about getting through the technical part of the interview process because and you know to me if you can't get through that you're not getting the job right. And that book actually comes out from I wrote that book because it came from my frustration, working at a company here in San Diego, and we were mandated to hire beginners only, because you know they wanted more butts and seats and you know so that was a really difficult thing and and I just saw all these people mostly you know straight out of college you know just totally flubbed the technical interview.  So the, actually the conference talk came first and the conference talk was so popular. Then, then I did the book. The book I've been maintaining since 2005 which I'm going to come hopefully get out a new version. This month is my rock your code coding standards for Microsoft on net. And that's been a project of mine ever since 2005 to do consolidated coding standards in one place. That we used to have before done that but we didn't really have any more and so the book. The book kind of for that. The next book, the other book I'm maintaining which I'll hopefully get a new version out early next year is called rock your code code and app performance for Microsoft on that. And that comes from a lot of work I've been doing in the last. I would say close to 10 years all revolves around performance and especially in today's world with the cloud. You really have to worry I mean performance was always a thing that we should worry about and I brought it up many times when I've been in teams but now in the cloud and since you get most of the most of the charge you get in the cloud is from execution time. Right. And so if you can shave off even milliseconds of something you do thousands of times a day or maybe millions of times a day that really dramatically can you know lower your cloud costs and so we think of that too. And a lot of there was a movement I know with as mobile usage started increasing and smartphones and companies realizing that you know hey we're we're seeing more and more of our users I mean you know like I I've been writing on my blog for almost 20 years and like 60 some percent of them are mobile readers and I've got a dismal mobile reading experience I mean I mean the process of fixing it actually this month but but so that's something where a lot of application providers realize hey we need to do more here I mean even look at how trim windows has become over the last couple releases. Yeah even windows is a lot better like I even have a Mac and you know my feeling the last couple years is windows is so much better than a Mac now you know it used to kind of be the other way for me because you know the Mac OS was really great the apps are really great but it's to me it's and installing things were easier and things like that but now it's the complete opposite to me the Mac is harder you know the updates mess everything up every time they do a major update. I will say that Vista ran beautifully on my wife's Mac. Yeah. With all the hardware problems that was it was at the was at the height of bloated. I think it was. It was pretty much best. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it was it ran error error free on on my wife's Mac and so I was like what are people complaining about Vista experience is fantastic but on that hardware. So so talking about performance the one thing I want to bring up real quick is I have a somebody I mentored when I worked at Verizon. And she had a friend who I think he just got out of college or something like that work for Facebook his first job at Facebook he's making 250,000 a year. And I said what the heck what what is he doing. You know, how do you get that much money straight out of college. Number one I think it's too much money for somebody that young. You had how do you make that much money and I found out it was because he was doing performance and in Facebook. And he was working on performance and and Facebook and Facebook basically believes that you know if we pay this guy 250,000 but he saves us millions of dollars a year it's totally worth it. And so they actually hire people just specifically for performance to get that cost to get the performance execution time down. So they pay less in the cloud right and so it's so performances is a big deal that you know the not only do we have to worry about the users right because users will get bored and go to the next web page. But now we have to worry about costs in the cloud. Yeah, and because someday you know I think someday I'm not sure when it will happen but everything will be in the cloud you know we won't host servers at all anymore. I mean some people will. But I think most everything is going to move to the cloud in the near future. Yeah there was a I just had a conversation with Jeff Teeper is the president of collaborative apps and platforms at Microsoft now and the father of SharePoint and he was at this conference over in Amsterdam the ESPC event and talk about how he felt that it wasn't until he thought it was 2017 was the date when he felt like the majority of people that he started speaking to were now embracing the cloud or recognizing that now that's you know if you look at the number of systems I mean still there's a huge on there's still a net new being installed in there but I think you're right at some point I mean just not going to make sense. Yeah, to do that at all especially with all the tools, especially with the AI everything else that we're now requiring of our systems, you can't do that without the scale of the cloud. Yeah, yeah and and but you know I do want to everybody listening because I've run into this with a couple companies including Verizon. That some companies believe that if you just put a VM in the cloud that's the cloud and to me that is not the cloud. That's just co location basically like we know we've had for a very very long time right. That's not the cloud and I worked at a company last year they were they were in it they were working on a three year project to move their their apps from done at framework to done at core and into the cloud and just be ends. And you know it was the tail end of a three year project, but they were just going to be ends and I was saying this is not the cloud, because the cloud is using the services that the cloud offers. And that's where you get the huge benefits, especially if we're talking about performance. That's huge benefits and for an example. I was hired for a company just north of me a little a little bit like 20 minutes, and they had a problem because they were trying to onboard sports teams and unfortunately their mobile app was sending 600 K payloads their back end system. And that was taking anywhere from seven to 70 seconds to get into the back end system. And so they were trying to onboard the Houston Astros and the Houston natural said that's way too slow. We're not we're not going to do it unless you get that because Houston Astros wanted to do batting practice, walk to the team room and have everything analyzed by them and that wasn't happening when it takes. 70 seconds to ingest one swing, right of the bath. And so using I didn't change so the solution that I came up with was I didn't change any of the code that process this data. All I did was stand up the cloud in front of it by, you know, putting the message, you know, into a queue, and then have events fire and process the messages as fast as it came in, right. And so I got that seven when I left. We were in testing to go live and I got that seven to 70 second processing down to 200 milliseconds or less. And that to me is the power of the cloud, not virtual machines, right. That's where you get the performance is when you start using more of a disconnected way of doing things, right, instead of a big monolithic way and and that pros, you know, that, you know, creates challenges too, of course, but, but for if you were just talking about performance, it's just hugely huge difference. Yeah, I'm interested in your answer to this, like, I know with the mentoring and the stuff that you that you do. I used to advise and I've done, I've spoken at a couple, you know, community colleges and universities, and, you know, somebody who like my marketing degrees but I've been for over 30 years I've been in it. I've been in technical management roles. I was at the Pacific Bell for for a long time and then, you know, number of other startups. And I would talk about software configuration management and DevOps and, you know, code management like these are roles which, you know, people that are in computer science programs are, you know, data platform programs. They're not excited. They're not sexy jobs or sounding to college students. But that's something where you go in, you can have, you know, college years part time experience but say, Hey, I've been in this space for a year or two. And you can make maybe not Facebook crazy money, but you can make really good money, you know, you know, 140 160 K a year, doing that stuff, you know, for with one or two years out of college. And I saw I tell people this and there's always shortages of these of those kinds of roles DevOps roles, especially, what do you advise people say like well what what to go look into like, here's an example I've got a son that graduated from University of Utah with his degree in atmospheric sciences. I kept telling him because he was capable of doing it like do a computer science minor. And his senior year he's like Dad, and he didn't do it he's like he thought to be too busy. His senior year he's just like I should have done that because he got into data science learn Python and are loved it is doing that is day to day job now.  Oh yeah, get out of the government working government, but he wants to work for NASA he wants to go do all that stuff so so anyway. But those those kinds of opportunities. What do you advise people like where where do you see like the underserved areas are where there's opportunities for people that are coming out of college that should they should be looking at. Well, you're right it you know the DevOps is is a role that you know I think more companies need to have, you know unfortunately, at least in my book I think too many companies are having that you know the developers do DevOps, which I think is mystic huge mistake. I think that should be should be a completely separate role just like, for example, database, you know administrators and designers are completely Q&A. Q&A and everything so I see a huge. If you look at the roles that I find. I have a hard time finding really good people DevOps is one database is another one. And to me, if you're really good at either one of those you can make good money doing those two. The other thing I've been recommending since the 90s basically is you know what are the problem people have and when I taught at the university here for 18 years and you know a lot of students will come up to me and say okay well now I've taken the course you know that that you run and we got the certificate that I was you know on the board of and and what how do I get a job and I go well the problem is you need experience. It's a whole chicken and the egg thing. And so, one of the things I recommend people who want to get a software engineering job is to pick a job similar to it. Right, work there, you know prove your good at that and then start moving into what you really want to do. Right and so back in the 90s, because I saw people do this successfully actually I recommended people go into QA. Right, because that's kind of like the first thing you learn a lot about the application and and our works and and the feet patterns of mistakes that are being made what people are doing wrong right. Right and so go into QA first. Yeah, most people QA is not sexy right it's it's it's it's something a lot of people don't really want to do, but it's a really good place to get your feet wet. And, and the story I used to tell at the university is is of this young woman who was at this company that I used to work at just up the street. And that's exactly what she did she got a job at QA. She was really good at that job and then she slowly started coming over to us the programming department, asking for small little things to do. And we gave them to her and she was really good at it and then we hired her we hired her straight out of QA into the our programming department and so that's a really I mean if you like dev ops you can stay there but you know I think doing those jobs that may not be a software engineering job gets you into the company especially if it's a large company like I won't use a NASA example but maybe like you know I worked at Verizon for two and a half years once, and maybe that's a good way to get Verizon is just start doing something else. Yeah, software engineering job because that because then you can start getting experience, you know, that way. Well and I was I served for many years first half my career first 15 years were in project in program management roles. And if you're coming over with again a couple years of dev ops and or s debt experience you know test experience QA roles over into project management to have that technical knowledge. The best pms always had that technical start. Oh yeah that was a marketing guy. I had different skill set, but the ones that did the best and moved up quickly on the management side were those that had just even a couple years and had that that technical undergrad so there's a lot. There's a lot of opportunities. If you go in and you get into find that you're just coding is not your passion there are other paths with skill set to and you know I'd like to point out again that you know if you do go into something like dev ops or QA or databases, and you really like it, and you're really good at it. To me you can write your own ticket because those roles and project managers to those roles to me are the hardest to find really good people. Right, that really know what they're doing and when I do find somebody in any of those positions that are really good I keep in contact with them to try to bring them into another job I'm on and things like that because they're so hard to find. There's lots of software engineers you know not everybody's great but but finding really great people knows other roles is, is to me is pretty tough. Yeah. Yeah, and, and, and because it, I think it's more of a minority kind of role as if you compare it to software then, like I said you can write your ticket, you know, you, you can demand more money because there's less of you. Right. Right. I think that's actually part of the problem with software engineering right now is there's too, there's too many people, you know that, you know, I know people get into it because they heard they can make lots of money and things like that but right now it's just to me it's over saturated and it's it's really tough, you know, to get through that, you know, and to show the show why you somebody should hire you because there's so where we're competing against people all the world now we used to compete just with people locally right but now we're competing all over the world and this David is we're venturing in like a whole we could talk for an hour on that topic and I know with you like you're interviewing so maybe we should schedule and do a collab talk podcast a regular full length because that's something again going back and talking with students groups and I've got four adult children I've get I gave them like outlined here's what you need to be doing to stand out while you're still in your undergrad. This is what you can be doing. It's more work, but you will stand out and unfortunately none of my kids listened. They've never listened to their parent. Of course, you know, but I don't. Yeah, my oldest who's also in the data science side of things, who did listen and kind of got out of the academia government side and went and is doing very well over and again a data science person in the health care industry, but she listened, and she's now late. She's now starting to write and build her social profile around a lot of that and great content. And so it's great to see but I just like see you could have been doing you could have done this started down this path, 10 years ago, and you would be further ahead than you are today.  I speak a lot, you know, I used to teach teaching university, you know, I did a lot of things, especially in my beginner years, because I start, I, you know, I founded and started running user group the first year I was a software developer. Right. And, and that, you know, and I've written all about this and I've talked about a lot but that single thing to dramatically improve my software engineering life, and my personal life. Yeah.  And, and, but part of that is writing and things like that too right and getting your name out there and and when I, when I mentor young people, I tell them the same thing that I need to start writing on blogs. If you want to write on my blog. Fine, I will be happy to host you. But you really need to start getting your name out there somehow it could completely agree. I saw a similar path that started writing, selling articles in the late 90s. I'm a 501 C three a nonprofit around user groups in 2002 in Northern California, like it so I'm a big advocate for writing sharing your knowledge, getting involved in the local regional community, getting on the speaking circuit.  There's plenty of people there.  They're so nervous. Oh, I was in the beginning. I was definitely like that. I'm not. I don't get nervous anymore. But in the beginning, I did want to speak. This is another thing we should talk about because also I was in music and I sang in a rock band for years. I always tell people I don't get nervous on stage because we did all originals. And I was the lead singer, like you kind of burn that out of your system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this reminds me of, I just published an article and Donna tips.com today about the importance of attending in person conferences now that they're back, you know, after COVID because, and I wrote that article because before I went to left the way to build stuff, you know, I started hearing about the low attendance at conferences. And so I spent a bunch of time, including when I was in Lithuania trying to think about that, going, okay, why is that right. And so I did a Twitter poll asking people why aren't you going to conferences, right, because to me, I started going to conferences the first year as a software engineer. And that dramatically changed my, my, my career too is good by going to conferences. And, and the number one answer in the poll was the company won't let them. And so I, I, you know, in the article I'd say why I, what I get out of going to conferences but then I also tackle the four, the four issues that I asked in the poll, and that why aren't people going and I feel that because of, you know, the company's not letting developers go the younger developers aren't getting exposed to this and they're not understanding, you know, the value of going to in person as opposed to watching a video. Yeah, well definitely I'm going to go grab that link often find that article because I wrote a similar post a week and coming back from Amsterdam wrote something similar saying like, Hey, the it's not about like the content is the easiest part you go find the content you don't have to follow it with the speakers, you don't have to attend and you can enrich yourself that way. It's you can't replace the, the face to face the interactions that the serendipity of walking through the conference hall, finding like one of your favorite authors or speakers, having a conversation making a connection like it's the networking huge.  Right. Right. And, and, and I rarely go to sessions, especially since they're all, most, most everything is on video now I can watch it later. Right, but the personal interaction. Now that's different, you know, depending on the conference and the location, for example, you know, when I speak in India, I'm inundated with people, they won't leave me alone. Right. Sometimes I have to go hide my room just to get away from it for a little bit. And in contrast, you know, when I spoke in Lithuania, it was the complete opposite I had a really hard time getting people to network there and even know that, you know, the conference had networking lunches and things. People just weren't just culturally different. Yeah, it was like, like my first conference speaking in Germany, like, no, no questions. I thought I did poorly. And I had one of the top scoring sessions for the conference. I'm like, what? Yeah, no one came and talked to me at all, but people loved the content. It's definitely a culture thing. That's for sure. Well, Dave, I really appreciate your time. Of course, I've got all the links. So I'll have it. You could find it out in the YouTube. You can find it out on buckthrottle.com on the blog. We'll have all this out there. So thanks so much for your time. And I will. Let's reach out. Let's connect. I would love to get in to talk about this side about the finding a job conversation. I would love to have that with you. Yeah, and I'd like to talk about why I like being an MVP too. Yeah, yeah.  You know, mostly by networking, right? Like my producer for my show goes, how do you get all these people on? How do you get all these important people on your show? And I go, well, number one, I just ask. Yeah, that's the hardest thing to do for a lot of people. But number two, I've spent at least 17 years now networking with Microsoft people and I can reach anybody at Microsoft. I've even reached Guthrie. Yeah, I was at a company and I asked them, why aren't you looking at Azure? And the lead developer said, because Microsoft's not giving us any love. And I go, oh, I'll fix that. I emailed Scott Guthrie the next day we had two managers for Microsoft on the phone with her. Yeah. Right. And that's the power of the MVP that I really, really, really do like. And I'm also an RD and I would say that I've witnessed that as through the MVP and RD networks, that exact same thing too. So that's advice for anybody if you're struggling with legitimate issue or concerns with Microsoft. I mean, that's one of the things that the MVPs and RDs can provide. So definitely, if you know one, have one of your network reach out. Yeah. Well, that's what I feel that's part of my job. I always felt that, you know, I'm kind of like the first line of defense between the regular developers of Microsoft, right? Yeah. Because I've gone to a level where I can talk to both sides. Yeah. So I every time I went to Microsoft for the MVP summit, I always felt it was my job to bring, you know, the issues that local developers are experiencing to Microsoft. And to make things better, right? I do that. I always feel like I'm selfish. I'm like, here are my customers' issues. And I do that. But no, that's what they love. That's what they want you to do. But they love it. Not all. It depends on what it is. But people just need to reach out. Don't be afraid to ask. You might get rejected. That's okay. But you're not going to get anywhere if you don't ask. Right. Well, Dave, really appreciate your time. Yeah. Thank you so much.