to Hebrew Israelites and if the end of the conversation results in them being angry with you them not wanting to speak with you well guess what you've done your job why is that because first of all all it takes is just a little bit of ability to handle the scriptures and to read things in context understand the flow of the Bible what the Bible is trying to communicate and then guess what you have put yourself in stark opposition to the Israelites I don't know that they have the ability to comprehend or the desire to comprehend I have not quite yet figured that out maybe some have good intentions and they are just honestly ignorant or this is just me my opinion only or they just want to be deceptive now what I do like and some folks don't have the patience for it some folks do some folks are causing a hellstorm for them which is a good thing some people are challenging their heretical view because it's taking people away from the actual gospel one such person obviously you guys if you watch YouTube and you just go to a video on the black Hebrew Israelites or the Hebrew Israelites or the Negro Israelites as I like to call them you're gonna find a lot of confrontations with them and the person who they do not like that is vocab Malone so I want to bring vocab Malone on vocab how you doing brother hey great intro glad to be here yeah the first time guys I wanted to say this to you all the first time that I saw vocab was I wasn't I didn't know who he was I hadn't got I hadn't been in a prison too long and I just happened to see funny hilarious skit Mohammed's boom-boom room I'm like who is this guy playing Mohammed and there it is and someone said that oh that's that's vocab Malone and so I started checking him out and seeing what he's doing guys there's a reason why we love him and they and I'm I don't use the word hate lightly but just look at and listen to the vitriol they have when they speak about this person they don't want that they don't they don't want no parts of vocab Malone so that's got to make you feel pretty good though right okay well my ideal situation would be to have good conversations with them I think that'd be the best way forward but if they won't then we got to do the next best thing which is work what they give us so if they'll ignore us you can still make a video out of that if they want to ignore you you know there's still ways if they want to threaten you there's there's always ways to expose some element but the best thing I I still think would be conversation but have you had most of the guys aren't into that have you look so that's my question then have you ever had one I have maybe once maybe twice in my lifetime have I had a cordial conversation with them but it's only I take it back I take it back it's been more than that it's only been when we're sitting down and there's just me and this other person but in a group I've never had this conversation so have you ever had one where they are you know cordial and there's a friendly dialogue yeah I've had a number of good ones where it is one-on-one like what you're saying but with Israel of God with Israel of God there was a whole bunch of folks at the table where you're in Chicago and they're not a one West camp they operate closer to what some people might see is in the traditional church mode now they're Hebrew Israelites but I'm saying their attitude and demeanor is you know you easier to work with now to be fair though I was mainly listening in that conversation so sometimes you can have a good dialogue if basically you're not saying if you're sort of empty empty you know like basically a sounding board for them you can you can have a good dialogue but that's not really a dialogue it's the minute you give pushback pushback the more challenge things sink things happen one time in the very beginning when I first met Sakari it was a peaceful dialogue and good but I don't know it came to seem like later that was just a sort of a trial balloon where they were testing the waters to see versus really maybe out of a sincere place I don't know I'd rather it go back to the way it was but you know things are very different now in the land okay and the reason why I even put why I played that particular clip I thought it was kind of it was just interesting they're making the statement about who are the sons of God it's like you're literally reading the answer in front of you and and they have no desire to to hear what it is oh my phone is ringing some phone is ringing yeah John why are two I don't I don't I don't get that and so let me push this button but I'll read it why you do that I'll help you out here this is John chapter one and the clip he just played was with a camp of one West Hebrew Israelites in downtown Dallas Texas beside their light rail and here it says in John 1 verse 12 but to all who did receive him who believed in his name he gave the right to become children of God we could stop there but the Holy Spirit has us keep going who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God so how was one given the right to become a child of God by believing in his name so not not the skin color no that's that's that's one of the least important things about Jesus or Yeshua if people prefer that be the one of the least important things about him and that's why the Bible doesn't really spend much time describing his physical features features other than the fact that they get marred when he atones for our sin and by the way not atoning for his own sin if you follow me on Twitter recently you'll see I put up a clip where Gabbar from GMS another one West camp he's literally saying that because Jesus Christ was reincarnated they believe that he was previously Adam and Solomon before he paid for the sins of the people and he did this as he was reading as a 53 Jesus had to pay for his own sin first now not all the groups teach that but some do let me do this let me do this I want to give you the floor for for a couple minutes and just describe to the people what Hebrew is or like what that all actually entails sure Hebrew Islam is a network of beliefs and if you picture a like a bike you know like the spokes coming out but there's that middle hub the middle hub of the network of beliefs is we are the true Israelites of the Bible now the we they all define the we differently some people include white folks some people include Native Americans other people say no some people include people in the continent of Africa others say no but whatever the we is according to the group we are the true Israelites then all these beliefs are spokes out from that and the spokes can vary greatly but it's a network of beliefs centering on the idea that black Americans are the true biblical Israelites and here's why it's problematic most of those spokes usually not always but are either heterodox or heretical and so it's not just the center belief because that would be usually just bad history but not necessarily heretical it's what they do with it it's the implications of it and it's the other things connected to it so that's why it's a problem because it's a whole really set of propositions that people buy into and usually the leading one the first one that usually gets them in is oh I'm an Israelite but a bunch of stuff comes from that that is anti-gospel frankly and also one of the thing to know when you deal with Hebrew Israelites is that the groups do differ greatly and the the beliefs do differ greatly from person to person from group to group so I tell people never tell a Hebrews like I don't understand everything you believe I know all about what you believe I encourage you to ask them as many questions as possible try to understand and if you got a belief of theirs wrong just simply say oh my bad I'm sorry misunderstood what you believe now that's kind of difficult because sometimes there are some Hebrews lights who will say one thing in a public setting and nothing in a private or will literally change their beliefs more frequently than we would be used to as Christians because there's a fluidity in this new in this new movement and a lot of times the leaders have a certain amount of power and so sometimes you'll see that kind of fluidity but nonetheless I just encourage people to ask them specifics about their beliefs how often would you will you find one who will identify themselves as one when they're not amongst you know the others I mean you go to street corner you see them okay I can identify them the guys with the bullhorn and so forth of the microphone but do they are they readily identifiable let's say in the work in workplace or just out and about by themselves fringes fringes are the key giveaway now the thing is not all Hebrews lights wear the fringes in public they do fringes usually different than Jewish people who are religious or practitioners of Judaism do the ZZ they do them differently and the way usually Hebrew Israelites do their fringes is on the bottom of this garment and then on the bottom will be a whole border of fringes all the way around the bottom of the shirt or whatever it may be as some of the groups don't encourage you to really wear them except when you're doing kind of religious type things and so you wouldn't be able to identify them but if you see someone with that like that instead of the little you know kind of tassels that someone who's practicing Judaism may have I would ask them hey what's the significance of those fringes why do you wear those fringes most of the time that's a Hebrews light I've never encountered a Hebrews light in the drugstore in the in the pasta section any place I've been when I've talked to one that that that didn't that had fringes on and when I asked him wasn't a Hebrews light it's a that's a main dev giveaway in a sort of public setting or public scenario other things may be you know if you if you were looking for additional things maybe something with Hebrew or especially the paleo Hebrew script somewhere on the body whether it's jewelry or shirt or even a tattoo something like that the especially favor often paleo Hebrew which is just the earlier form of the script of Hebrew really is all it is they act like it's something different it's just an earlier form of the script a little rude and more rudimentary or whatever and then also other things would be often but not always beards for the men maybe but not always head coverings for the women but again these are more religious practitioners because some of the Hebrews lights don't do those things and they don't all necessarily think that you have to have a beard or head coverings a majority do though but so you add all those things together and then if you're just trying to say hey can I share the gospel with this person and have some idea maybe where they're coming from those would be some of the things I would look for okay now by the way guys y'all make sure make sure you go to vocabinons channel I don't not only just check them out but go ahead and subscribe often times I really don't you know I'll say go check someone out and don't always say to subscribe definitely subscribe to him matter of fact someone else is always also always fighting against Hebrew is like they don't like him very much I'm pretty sure that's Alton Johnson y'all go make sure go check him out and subscribe as well let me ask you questions since we're talking about Hebrew is lights what percentage of them would you say actually no Hebrew oh most Hebrews lights have learned a couple phrases during their time in the religion the longer they're in it a lot of times the more phrases they know the problem is if they're of the one West variety that's the guys who are often on the corner they usually know a version of Hebrew that is not standard that's a nice way to put it they call it wash one Qadosh and for example instead of saying Israel or Yisra'el they'll say Yashirallah so sometimes you have to know a little bit of Hebrew to know what they're actually trying to say with their unique vowel system that are y'all or Abba Bivens invented sometime in the in the middle of the 20th century so that's like not it's like it's like do you know Hebrew if you know Lashawan Qadosh not really now if you're talking about be able to speak Hebrew that's a very small percentage I don't off the top my head I don't know but I can say some people that I that I would know Zion Lex has some facility with the Hebrew language divine prospect has some facility with the Hebrew language a lot of times the more Old Testament only guys they would tend to a lot of times be more knowledgeable about Hebrew than the guys who embrace elements of the New Testament and some of the camps Corey don't believe that knowing Hebrew is actually important so I UIC says hey we speak English Israel of God says we speak English I'm not saying that they never discuss the Hebrew word but I'm saying by and large their stance is most of our people who are in captivity speak English so we're not going to spend a bunch of time learning Hebrew some of them even get into Gamatria which is which is sort of a mystical symbolic way of looking at the Hebrew letters having meanings and that that's a little a little interesting to see that but it's not a lot who know know Hebrew but then again it's probably not a lot of Christians who know know Hebrew right you know so we're trying to be fair with that but more Hebrews lights bluff that they do then more Christians bluff that they do yeah I've got two videos I'm actually kind of combining the two I took them down I'm kind of combining the two and one one came on and I asked him I said hey what do you okay your Hebrew is light in the title Hebrews in your name so do you know Hebrew because we were in John not John Genesis 12 and the Bible says that any in him or through him all the families of the earth and so I'm asking him does he know a little bit of Hebrew does he know Hebrew he says oh yeah sure I know Hebrew I just as confidently and so I said well what does call me he said well I'm not sure he said you call call because I said yeah you just repeated it what does it mean he says why I don't I don't I don't know can you repeat that again and I said you just told me you knew Hebrew do you know well not a lot I don't know a little bit okay do you know what called me oh yeah what is okay what does it mean he didn't know so what well okay and I wasn't gonna hammer him on it but it's just that you lied about it you could have told me you did not gonna explain this is what this means and this literally means not just Israel or Abraham's physical image and so it's like well don't say you are something or know something that's fine whether you whether you're our Christian or he was like but I think I've met one one who who knew a tad bit and so okay well because sometimes it would help in some in some of the way that you guys especially when we get to the whole issue issue of the color black like what's the guy's name Bishop Nathaniel on Jason Whitlocks he just kept going over you know black this black black we covered up the other day and just showed guys there are there are three different words in Hebrew that that speak of this word they all don't mean the actual color and so I was just wondering what what percentage have you have you had many occasions where some of them have went back and forth with you and try to utilize Hebrew oh yeah definitely I mean with with Zion Lex but even though I went to seminary I and it was around and have access to people who were expert to Hebrew you'll never find a video where I'm like I know Hebrew because even having digital tools and access to people doesn't really mean you know it know it know it so you so I don't front like I do you know what I mean just like what you said you know you we just speak the truth about that but I've had Hebrews lights who will try to snow you sometimes with Hebrew and sometimes it takes me a little while but I can check up all their claims on Hebrew and not always but frequently they're incorrect in regards to some of their claims about the Hebrew so I've done things like I'll talk to Michael Brown about something when my buddy Jeff Cran was still alive a talk to him I have a guy that I'm a seminary with that's an Old Testament professor a number of other people and then I have some language tools and I can it takes me a while but I can track down the claim and it's not always accurate but there's even guys who claim that they've translated new versions of the Bible and with some of them what they've essentially done is taken the King James version and just inserted some of their phrases that they like instead of the English phrases at certain points they really haven't translated anything when they've done that some of them have done that they really haven't translated a new edition of the Bible they've sort of done a search find and then replace some key words you know but but that's not to say that they don't know any Hebrew so there are some guys who do know you know hey there's some Jehovah's Witnesses know Hebrew some Mormons know Hebrew so even just knowing the language of course you know as I just talked to the audience wouldn't make you necessarily right about a claim or wrong about a claim and some things are based upon your your previous theological like sometimes things go one of two ways you know they can go different ways and some of the the the answers are based upon other passages that you understand in a certain way so there is some art to the interpretation of a biblical language as well but usually it's a bluff but I don't make a strong point about arguing about Hebrew minutiae with them unless that's what they want to do then I'll say well let's get on someone who who who can check you and let's find out but don't don't don't don't get caught down on that everybody don't get don't get caught up in in the Hebrew talk if if you talk with the Hebrews like if you can help it okay so now we'll go into a little bit of this one particular person but I know you pastor Dowell or whatever you want to call him but the guy who's over the IUIC Nathaniel Bishop Nathaniel you I think you mentioned to me that that they don't like and he doesn't like in particular to actually have dialogue with someone who is interested in going back and forth but more more or less a platform somebody who he knows is not going to be able to handle what he's saying yeah Nathaniel is looking for PR and the reason why we're bringing up Nathaniel you and I talked about him because he was the organizer of IUIC's March for Kyrie it was actually just a March for recruiting into IUIC really more than anything I don't think Kyrie said hey I need you guys to stand outside the Barclay Center or anything like that you know what I mean but the March for Kyrie that happened the Barclay Center of Brooklyn Nathaniel made made some appearances on non-heber is a like social media after that and one of them was which Jason Whitlock just like you mentioned and he and IUIC have a policy of not engaging and specifically someone like me they literally act like I am not there when I'm on the street they actually act like except for the fact that they'll do things like turn their backs to me or put the speaker where I am now now it's more extreme with my in my case the way that they behave towards me but if you're out there with IUIC in the street and they see you being the same way or let's say they see you maybe two or three times in a row you might get the same treatment as well right and so that's really kind of all it takes in regards to IUIC and the whole organization is like that their reason would be hey we're on mission we're not here to debate people who the book's not even there or people who don't have a following amongst our people we're on a mission this is discipline that we have we're not going back and forth with these non-Israelites that might be the way they would frame it but really Nathaniel wants a platform where he can just PR but he does not want a platform where he's gonna debate you I think I've seen one or two old actual debates with IUIC leadership and it was with some old church of Christ folks and and I mean a lot of them in they were debating were like geriatric stage you know and you'll see a few things like that from the past and I don't know if they're gonna do any more of that in the future I don't think they are I don't think that's really any advantage to them to do that but IUIC's policies no debate now you mentioned Tao Tao will debate with in certain instances some of and some of his people will debate in certain instances as well under certain conditions Tao's a little less I don't know what the word is he's he doesn't seem as fragile as how you I see it to be put it that way but you know what and since we're talking about him since we've segregated him now you want to go ahead and pull up some of these some of these clips well first of all you want to tell us about him and then what sort of following he has yes so the reason Corey why now we would go from IUIC to Tao and to the audience because Corey and I've already talked after the Kyrie tweet in light of what yay was saying and doing there's this whole media maelstorm right and then you have IUIC a one-west style Hebrew is a light group and they're wearing the purple and gold they're all connected to one organization and they're marching so then Nathaniel makes the rounds well Jason Whitlock who's like a conservative has a good size audience and so some other people called him after the Nathaniel IUIC interview and said hey we disagree with some of this that was said so we want to come on and we want to share our side so chat Charles Dowell brought three former NFL players and they this was just this was less than 24 hours ago this interview and they were also on the program representing straightway truth ministry straightway truth is not a one-west organization they're not going to stand on the corner and they're not going to teach that other nations so-called are going to be bound for slavery to straightways credit because I try to be a very fair with these guys they say I'm not but I really try to to straightways credit they are probably the least racist he was like organization that I'm aware of now some of the other groups are probably take a fence I'm not saying that everyone is super racist just because I said that about dows but with dows group I've seen that he seems to even though he demands total loyalty and subjection to him he also will give people of different nations a place in a role with an organization and they're less about the devil talk and all that kind of stuff nonetheless they're still Hebrews lights they still have an ethnic hierarchy I'll be it to limit a less extent and they're still problematic group so they made their appearance and shared their disagreements one is they do believe in polygamy I UIC says they don't believe in polygamy dows group here that was just on Whitlock show fearless Dowell also said hey all nations can get this this message this gospel right sounds so good so far he also made a heavy emphasis on needing the baptism Holy Spirit Dowell is almost really a Pentecostal Hebrew is a light more though more so than what people might call a black he was like it's almost like his Pentecostalism is is so key in fact the one book that I have the dowels written is actually about the Holy Spirit Ruach the Holy Spirit and so this is his book and it has Hebrewism in it but it's almost more Pentecostal than it is Hebrew is a light now he mixes and matches I grew up Pentecostal I'm not anti Pentecostal I'm reformed but I'm a cautious charismatic these days sorry whoever that makes upset or whatever so I'm not hating on the Pentecostal element but I'm just trying to give you his particular group's thing also Dowell seems to be able to attack up attract X NFL players and people like that and I would like to play some clips to show the attraction and it's from the interview that just happened so this is fresh review no one's review this and I'm aware of which which one you want to go to first let's play the first clip and here's what you're gonna see I'd like to get your reaction actually Corey okay listen to Kabeer Kabeer Baja be a mela I always have trouble that Baja Guillemilla is how he's and I talk to him they call him KGB when he played yeah I'm trying to get his last name down but yeah they call him KGB who was a green back Green Bay Packer Hall of Famer and set number of records for them and I've talked to him over times but I want you to hear what he says here in regards to his own personal struggle in his theology play that first clip and you'll hear what I'm talking about where though it was before that I mean it really started with the whole image of God I was one time reading it was in first Corinthians 11 it says the image of God was created the man was creating image of God and I was I never I don't know why I didn't notice it before but for whatever I believe God just allowed me to see it differently just really seeing I remember telling my wife I said did you know as a woman you weren't created as the image of God and she it really it really it got to her and then so when so we were going back it started in May so we're going back and forth kind of trying to figure out this whole image of God she felt like no we're equal I said you know it says the head of every man is Christ and the head of every woman is man and the head of Christ is guy we were going back and forth and I was trying to find videos a pastor that said that I think pastor that came up there but I said I can't use that one to sell that to her I had to find a pastor so let me ask you this KGB you grew up in okay so Cory according to Kabir again a man whom I respect and enjoy his car conversation so this is not the pick on him also I don't want to pick on someone his stature but I'm just I'm just being silly he's he's he isn't he is a kind nice guy when we talk according to Kabir Cory are women made in the image of God we all are but according to Kabir what he just said according to Kabir he's wrong as a matter of fact this whole issue of being subject under a man well Paul as he's stating this out he's saying that we're all really to be in subject or submissive to one another and that we don't one we don't assume or place ourselves higher than anyone else and he gives a hierarchy in terms of marriage but it's never that that he used to dominate or to rule over anything like that and so yeah I think I think that and you know for a man that could be appealing I can see why because you know in in football I played I play football in college and in the locker room you get I want to check Texas Tech we weren't we weren't that good back then which is probably how they got me so all the bums went there at the time anyway but you know you're in the locker room all the all the testosterone and macho talk goes about well and so that could be that can be a bit appealing I can see why that that former NFL players athletes might might you know might might find that appealing but yeah I think I think he's taking that a bit too far because he's speaking when he says about in the image of matter of fact let's do this let's go I got some verses is that you want to go to the Bible yeah yeah okay are you able to pull up you probably already gonna do this can you are you able to pull up Genesis 126 27 yep okay so why he's doing that I want to share with everybody I don't know Corey's position I am a complementarian so what if you look up a complementarian that's different than egalitarian and so this is not coming from a place of what these guys would say they would probably say it nonetheless of feminized Christianity in fact a lot of times complementarians are accused for being a misogynist within Christianity sometimes other Christians will say oh your commentary in your misogynist or something like that are you promote chauvinism I'm not my perspective would align with books like this recovering biblical manhood of womanhood response to evangelical visit feminism Piper and Grudem another Grudem book he's one of my professors at Phoenix Phoenix seminary that's where I bring him up when Grudem evangelical fism feminism biblical truth and even this a journal for biblical manhood of womanhood this is a great journal and they have fresh articles on these topics on a regular basis and so that's the biblical place I come from with that but nonetheless let's go with the Bible not with what these guys are saying these guys are literally saying the women are not created in the image of God and so what I'm trying to show everyone is unfortunately that's actually a point of attraction to some men it's sort of an over-response to maybe some feminization of certain elements of evangelicalism but let's see what 126 27 says and then we're gonna go to another verse that proves what Genesis 1 means here are you able to read a query yeah says verse 26 says then God said let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion I'm emphasizing to them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and so forth so now and then he says in verse 27 so God created man in his own image in the image of God he created him male and female he created them now Corey let's say that you were Hebrews alike who did not believe women are made an image of God can you see what one place they might try to take a hit the rescue lever you know the escape hatch one place they might try to go to to can you see maybe a place they might go to prove that it's that we were made in the man only yeah it's a man only can you see maybe what they might try to pull just if you can that's probably good let us make man as though he's speaking of just right Adam the man and then verse 27 he says so God created man right his own image in the image of him I mean the image of God he created and then the emphasis will be on on him that's what they'll try to pull but let's go to Genesis 5 while you're going to Genesis 5 I want to tell everybody that that answer that Corey gave playing the role of a Hebrews line apologist was still not properly account for the Hebrew grammar or really even historical understanding of this passage but Genesis 5 1 and 2 seal the deal watch the way the holy text itself defines what it means by this a lot of you don't know this verses here that's why I want to share it today because if you run into someone who says women are not made an image of God you combine these two verses it's really a case closed are you able to read Genesis 5 1 and 2 like I feel like I feel like if we were on the corner and you you're the guy leading and I'm the guy with the reading okay okay read this is the book up now kidding this you got it you got it you got it this is the book of the generations of Adam when God created man he made him in the likeness of God male and female he created them and he blessed them and named them named them man when they were created named them man when they were created this is I hope everyone sees that so God created man he made him in the lives of God male and female he created them so it's expanding and then it defines it named them man when they were created both are under this not just one and here's the thing even if you just took it from a kind of a logical level wouldn't it be since man is created in the image of God and Eve was brought forth from man that she would also be in the image of God I would think so I would think so but see so it's like look we can believe in gender distinctions because this text affirms gender distinctions doesn't it male and female it affirms that and even Paul brought out later that Adam was created first and that has to do with the the authority in the home and other things like that I mean Paul literally tied the authority to order of creation because order of creation has to do with something it has to do with something it's not God's not randomly doing he's saying something even by that now someone say what about the zebras this is a relationship to male and female specifically and Paul gave the argument so we got to remember that and in the book and one of his pistols to Timothy now looking at that we see that both are created in the image of God and this is the Amago Dei both are image bearers of God and that's why we get verses like Galatians 3 28 which says there's neither junior Greek neither slave nor free male no female for you all are one of Christ Jesus directly relates to that that's even why we get verses like first Peter 3 7 listen to this likewise husbands live with your wives in an understanding way showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel notice it doesn't say the week it says weaker implying both are weak sometimes people miss that since they are heirs with you of the grace of life you see that heirs with you of the grace of life there's an equality in the salvation as well this is Peter speaking so that your prayers may not be hindered this has to do with the man's relationship to his wife and then relationship with God it affects all that so I'm offering a brief counter to that we can be complementarian and still must affirm women are made in the image of God as image bearers who bear the Amago Dei who who are human just like men oh my goodness it's so mind-blowing that I'd have this kind of a conversation but that's important but what we're getting at there is part of the appeal of dowels brand of Hebrew is a lism which is it's directed towards men it doesn't denigrate men for being men and it's no accident that former NFL players are specifically attracted to him yeah and it's something that affirms proper biblical roles to an extent the problem is doubt they go above so they also teach over their dowels thing like a lot of Hebrews lights do polygamy now they'll say it's polygyny but polygyny is a form of polygamy and even a book that that I saw promoted by dowels people straightway ministry truth was this book the polygamous papers by hondo so I believe that they did an interview with them and it's called the polygamous papers an introduction to polygamous culture and its principles pitfalls and ethics and you know this is a fascinating thing because speaking of Timothy speaking of Titus in there are rules qualifications for elders pastors and one of them is husband of one wife so pastor dowel how's he an elder how's he a pastor but he does not stick into one wife he does not meet the qualification according to the Bible so those are important things to bring out now I'm not all Hebrews lights believe in multiple marriage such as IUIC they teach on this side of heaven there's no multiple marriage but in the kingdom there will be so so you see some of the appeal there because if you're men you're like okay finally let me let me answer this real quick I want to I want to pull something up someone just put this comment up and says referring to the title the ungodly Hebrew Israelites what's so ungodly about us and yes we are the real Israelites let me tell you my friend what's so ungodly about about your your your religion your cult I'm just gonna be up front with you the reason what makes it ungodly is you teach a different gospel you teach a gospel one based off work but two also more anything else based off of the skin color where you don't find that anywhere preach you teach it you preach a gospel that's void or devoid of comprehension you guys don't read anything context as a matter of fact you get more context contextual reading listening to a Muslim read the Bible than you do a Hebrew Israelite that's what makes it ungodly if you are preaching a different gospel even if you were an angel and did so the Bible says that you are a curse you are anathema and so that's the reason why now when I get someone who is of any sort of repute who wants to have this conversation then more than willing to have this conversation not just with just nothing about you a random person but don't know how you would even comport yourself and so that's the reason why I say so you do realize it's a Christian channel and so we're gonna offend the gospel in what it says and we are gonna come against anything that that stands up or is in direct opposition to what the Bible preaches that's why so I'm sorry to interrupt you now this the the second clip that I think that's the one that might bother me I think that's the one that might bother me because I think that's the one is that the one where it is Robert Mathis yeah you know you just brought up the gospel right yeah when when Jason Whitlock acts them like ask them hey you know why do you want to be on this show right the key a key thing that he's that he says is you know we weren't here in the proper gospel with Nathaniel so let me show you real quick let me show you real quick how he says this he's like why did you want to why did you want to come on the program okay watch this watch this I just got on the phone it's a brief clip so this is Jason Whitlock and he's gonna ask Robert Mathis he's paid for the cults why do you want to come on and they among Siebers lights they can't even agree on the gospel watch this because you reached out I want to start with you first and just ask what did you hear from Bishop Nathaniel that upset you divisiveness because as an Israelite man we're supposed to spread the message the gospel and a lot of what he was saying didn't job because it pushes people away from the from the true and living y'all he wants to bring his people in all those that have a ear to hear and how can you hear if you're spewing okay the white man is this the white man is that kiss my boots and things like that but all the divisiveness it just wasn't it just wasn't conducive to what y'all says in this book Pastor Dow did you see any of this are you just heard about it or what you know so basically and they go on an elaborate they Dow he burns light straightway ministry essentially accused Nathaniel now you I see a preaching a different gospel that's how much difference they say is there is between them now when I see them I don't see the massive difference because both are non-trinitarian both push law law law law both have an emphasis and overemphasis on ethnic identity now it is true that IUIC says all people IUIC says all people cannot be included in this only Israelite can be included and Dow says all people can be included the differences what has to do with the expansion of it and you heard Robert Mathis to his credit mentioned that part but guys remember Joe's witnesses they've always been really diverse but doesn't mean they have the gospel right you know it doesn't mean that they're speaking truth just because they're diverse right so we got to keep that in mind just because you see he was lied to or diverse diversity is never a substitute for orthodoxy and so I want to bring that out they don't even agree amongst each other about what the truth is but it's interesting I want to show everyone this next clip that you wanted to play when you hear him you'll notice who God is and what the gospel is is not even the main concern here it's about who I am that's what drives it if you got clipped to in black people coming right right so I'm trying to find out exactly who I am trying to seek truth going to Jehovah's Witness looking into commit just trying to find something because I had an overwhelming urge to find out the truth because I wasn't getting anything the rod I was going that I grew up in but anyway I come across straightway past the dial and what year this was so you said that one is that the one you said bothered you it by me just because it was it was a former Colt player that's all oh yeah you know what yeah he didn't do enough for us anyway how about that well are you wait you're a Colts fan aren't you aren't listen aren't all guys people Colts fans I'm not super football I didn't play football in college like you but I'm from Columbus Ohio so I go with the bingles first and then I go with the bill second because my Italian side of my family is all in the Buffalo area but I don't really fall for all that close and I live in Arizona but who likes the Cardinals right but but notice there though he says you know Jehovah's Witnesses commit and he wanted to know who he was now look there's nothing wrong with what nice to know who we are but biblically speaking the way you do that as first and foremost is by knowing who God is if you read a book called the Institutes for Christian Religion you'll see that in the opening chapters especially it's emphasized again and again and I would agree that to truly know ourselves we have to know God first and foremost we only know who we are as humans when we understand who God is first and foremost so knowing him is key to understanding who we are that's a biblical cornerstone in regards to Christian anthropology here you've got the cart before the horse with a lot of hebrism so identity doctrine drives this thing and their so-called gospel is really secondary and you see that again and again and again it's really about finding out who I am who we are things like that versus who is Jesus and here's the thing they think that they have the right idea of who they are but almost all hebers lights Corey have the wrong idea of who Jesus is I'm not talking about a skim color almost every he was like group denies the full deity of Christ and some of them teach that he was Adam and Solomon reincarnated who actually had to die for his own sins before he could pay for other people's sins as you'll see if you look at that recent clip I put on Twitter GMS literally teaches that and that's a big mention of this you said something maybe think about something because as I'm thinking I don't recall hearing and you would know better but do they ever talk about their fallenness do they ever talk about how they are just as as human beings were morally bankrupt do they ever do they ever talk about the sinfulness of man this would be their their fallen nature can you say that again do they talk about the what of what could you say as we know that phrase I want to play on it do they talk about what do we the fallenness of man do you know what I don't even know what I say no no say it again just say it real slow I'll tell you what they do the fallenness of man I'll say it one more time just a little slower fallenness of man the white man fallenness of the white man does that even interject the word I'm sorry okay so they okay so so they don't focus on they focus on how bad white folks are or as you or as you would say it in uh Muhammad's boom boom room the white man so they focus on on him but they don't they don't focus on the on the on the the depravity of of of blacks or Hispanics or these 12 tribes I'm doing that just to just to kind of mess around first and foremost is the fallenness of the white man yes absolutely and out of the white man the worst of the white man these groups usually say are the are the people that claim to be us who have stolen our identity they usually view them as the worst of this group of the white man now it is not the case that none of them ever uh there there are there are groups who do not talk about that as much for example one of the reasons why dowels group wanted to come on to talk with lock then you heard it that math is clip he he wanted to say we're not just going to talk about the white man's a devil we're not just going to focus on that and and so they probably talk about a little less at some of the other groups but a lot on the corner do you hear them and in fact notice robert mathis said it's not kiss my feet kiss my boots the way the heber's a light to do believe in the boot kissing ceremony get people to do that is by making them feel guilty or bad for their association and enroll or connection through oppression of minorities in america and so it's a very heavy emphasis but heber's lights do talk about problems in the community because they are trying to offer their solution so they first have to talk about the problems but a lot of times it's the problems are are are sort of put on us by someone else but they will also say it's because we didn't keep the law's statutes and commandments so they'll also say it's our fault let me say that and by the way moderates normally normally of okay what we have on the channel is a he drew israelite band we're gonna suspend that for today when we're talking about them because i don't mind them in the channel and in the chats engaging obviously as long as they keep it respectful but there's one passage that i that i've i've got to bring up and this is why this this goes to why no practicing heber israelite can make it to heaven this is why no practicing iber heber israelite can be say let's just see what and i understand that they have an issue with paul but we're gonna go to what paul said in glacial five he says it was for freedom that christ set us free therefore keeping standing firm therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery behold i paul say to you that if you receive circumcision the law christ will be of no benefit to you and i testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is under obligation to keep the whole law so rather than just trying to keep the keep one aspect of it or a certain aspect of it you're under obligation to keep the entirety of the law he says this if you're trying to do so you have been past tense you have been severed uh from catter get the stay you have been severed from christ you who are seeking to be justified by the law you have fallen for grace we do this whole thing we're talking about glacial five is speaking that you can lose your salvation no is speaking about people who are trying to gain their salvation by keeping the works of the law and if those who are trying to do that you have already been severed you have been cut off there's no possibility and so that's why it's a it's a it's a horrible gospel it does not teach doesn't lead you to anywhere and so i think that has to be has to be brought up um because i think folks need to see that you want to do all these different things and you fail every day all the time and you can never do you can never and i always wonder do do they understand um why jesus came do they do they do they when they do decide to engage you or anyone else would ever say why jesus came and died on the cross do they reject that uh no they're not not like you know muslims where they'll reject that reality at least if they hold to the new testament they'll say yeah jesus died some sometimes they'll say on a stick or a pole you know but but they'll say usually two things in regards to why jesus died the most common one is to renew the covenant and so i always picture it like you know you've got one of the old nes systems and you got to hit the reset button and start the game over so you get a fresh game start you know starting new and that's a little bit like uh how some of them picture or portray jesus dying on the cross he had to hit the reset button on the contractor covenant or relationship between israel and her god and so that's what jesus was able to do and that's why some of them say we're not in the new covenant we're in a renewed covenant and they'll say that a lot of times for that very reason and so that's one another one is for example i u i c will say uh yes and jesus also did away with the law of sacrifice and what the reason i did it that way is because you get these he resides who anytime there's a verse that says something about doing way uh you know he the how the law was was handled at the cross or something like that they'll add of sacrifice you know the first time i heard i was like what and it doesn't say of sacrifice that's literally you know like a parenthetical statement added to it you know a prepositional phrase i guess or whatever right added right to it doesn't say of sacrifice the reason why they do is they say there's certain things that were changed or altered or covered so for example we no longer have to do sacrifices anymore and that's why they'll say of sacrifice and they'll say and uh we don't stone people or kill them when they violate the rules anymore we don't we don't kill people as part of the community if they violate and so that's the things that he did away with the law of sacrifice they'll sometimes say and uh you notice there that that none of that's really the gospel and even what i mentioned earlier i've mentioned it a number of times just because i find it so incredibly shocking and aggravating and an example of how heretical someone this can get again gabar from gms i'm naming names not because he's the only one who teaches it but i'm naming names so i'm tying it to a specific time place location and i have it on twitter so you can see what i'm saying gabar of gms teaches like a lot of heber's lights that jesus was reincarnated because they believe reincarnation some of the heber's lights including this group gms since jesus himself was adam and solemn prior he had his own sins to deal with as adam and solemn so imagine reading isaia 53 and seeing why jesus died and saying and he had to pay for his own sin first before he could pay for ours so you have a heber's light recognizing jesus dies for sin right but he makes two massive errors uh in this particular example one is that jesus had to pay for his own sin first directly contradicting hebrus exactly that's directly contradicting even the logical implications of the virgin birth i would say oh but guess what they deny the virgin birth so you have that as well and remember they have jesus only dying for israelites so so it's not it's not for any other nation even though remember the verse you brought up in the beginning through you all nations or families of the earth will be blessed the messiah is the is the final culmination of that prophecy but they say no you know they basically think nations are going to be blessed by being enslaved to them and learning the law um janice hachler says pastor del d o a l no it's d o w e l l and the reason why i'm bringing up specifically the examples of i u i c when nathaniel and charles dowell straightway truth ministry two very different heber's light groups because they're both made recent appearances on jason whitlock's fearless show so i'm using something that literally just happened okay oh there's elder rufus who is that oh straightway georgia elder rufus elder rufus now i know that your close friends with dowel because i've heard him laugh at your jokes in the comment section and so you're probably a funny guy but i remember one particular joke that you said you would uh what was it break my jaw or punch me in the jaw if you saw me wow do you remember that when elder rufus i wonder if elder rufus members saying that in the comment section i specifically remember you saying that and just so you know elder rufus if you did that i would not fight back but i would pray to the to the good lord it was on camera so everyone could see what heber islism produces it doesn't produce people who want to debate in a spiritual way but want to act carnally but you did say that i don't know if you remember saying that but you did say that maybe you could answer if you remember saying that elder rufus and by the way an elder is not supposed to be a striker or given to violence so you would fail the qualification to be an elder especially if you have more than one wife elder rufus so there's that too let me say this also elder rufus i would love for you to send me an email i'd love to have a conversation with you i'd love to see if if your theology if your handling of the scripture can can hold up i would love to just have a conversation with you not you know we're not going to get into punching folks and this and that and whatever but i'd love for you to send me an email let's let's let's see if we can have this conversation i believe that the person who understands the scriptures and can handle the text and authentically holds the truth of the gospel can stand up and have a conversation with anyone if it's if it's like you see vocab go out and he's it's vocab versus 10 or 15 he resides then the reason why because he knows who's actually backing him and so there's no fear in that and so i would love to see if you would be willing to do the exact same thing uh brother rufus and i'm saying brother rufus not that you're necessarily a brother but but that you know how we just say just kind of in you know uh and i see another person uh straight way indiana gosin okay same uh oh no north what is that north northeast indiana uh same thing send me an email see send send me an email i would love to have it i would love to have this conversation matter of fact if it's both of you at the same as we say not a b o t h both b o f both of you so i would love i would love to have a conversation i would love to have a conversation with both the scriptures because now a lot of folks vocab assume that i am uh reformed or uh calvinist i'm not but i knew it right when i saw you cori you don't got you don't have any facial hair yeah listen i am aerodynamic i'm sleek you know uh guy asked me why did i cut my head i didn't god did now i didn't listen i wanted to keep the hair that guy took away from but that's that's up enough anyway uh and by the way these are the kind of conversations that the things we get y'all all lost okay how how uh you guys keep referring to some of these these passages as though you belong to you kind of just kind of just weasel your way in not calling you guys weasel kind of just squirm your way in on like the Deuteronomy 28 uh matter of fact can i just pull up this passage real quick i'm i'm wondering if if Deuteronomy 28 actually applies to uh ussises colored folk as black folk my question is this uh when did this passage ever happen verse 53 says and you shall eat the fruit of your womb the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the lord your god has given you in the siege in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you or do you just go and just do a word search and look up shift look up black and then to bingo that applies us okay well when did we ever i just want to know i missed that in in my history class when did we ever eat our babies that helped me out i it could be that i just don't understand i don't understand uh the bible like i think i do and i might need your education but but let me know but she said of course no matter calvinist and the reason why i i i don't actually give myself a particular title some folks have labeled me that way that which is fine that that's fine but i say look at the text look at the passages that i'm dealing with i have a uh dispensational hermeneutic which means i'm going to look at things in a historical grammatical literally historical grammatical uh way and as i'm reading the scriptures i see what god is uh laying out what he's unfolding for israel and what he's doing for gentiles and how paul makes it clear at least to me uh how paul makes it clear that he has given god has given this partial heart into israel given the spirit of stupor and so he's dealing with gentiles and if that's the case then it makes no sense for anyone to go around talking about how valuable it is to be true israel out of true jew because the fact that matters whether you it whether you are jew or gentile israel whether you're the 12th tribe or whether you that that lost that left out 13th tribe i don't know whatever it is whatever it is you are if you if you have not placed your faith in christ then it doesn't really matter then doesn't that's how i look at things now i'd love to have this conversation you said we have nothing to do with any of the other groups okay i'm sorry i just saw the straightway georgia elder roof okay all right um but i'd love to have a conversation with you yeah it's true remember i mentioned the beginning they are not a one west camp straightway and the only reason we're doing the compare and contrast is because they were both recently on jason whitlock's program and again if you notice they they maybe they won't notice but i gave them even compliments several times where i could throughout this even in the midst of of some critical elements and so i want to bring that out and plus i played some of their own clips which uh you know we have some more clips and then that we could play which we're two decks we're not saying well one is just more to confirm what you just said uh real briefly it's number three it shows how even though nathania and dowell would disagree in a lot they agree on the core doctrine for them which is the identity doctrine so i just wanted you to hear the little dude on a 28 thing where he says he agrees with that it's clip three it's very brief all right been bought over here in the slave ships and then scattered throughout the caribbean we are the original israelites that the bible speaks about so you agree with bishop nathaniel on that i do okay yeah that's that's all to play for that just to show that um you know they agree basically on that interpretation of dude on a 28 would be would be key for them as well and you know i don't these folks think that i hate them or i'm part of the devil i do not hate them but you know if you listen to a straightaway video or sermon they bang on christians and christianity hard and i'm going to be frank they'll always say they understand what christians believe they'll always say that but frequently when you hear what they say they usually don't understand what christians believe they'll probably understand some about what the context that they came out of but they'll also say oh we came out of churches that weren't very deep or weren't teaching the bible so then how would you really know uh much of what christians believe that that's the case and so uh they will bang hard on christianity i don't believe that that i'm i'm doing the them the way that they do christians but that that that's a fact you know the way that they come at christians and say how ignorant they are and everything like like that and and you know the the the straightway often acts as if they're really some of the only heber's lights with the truth and since heber israelism or some form of it is true they'll kind of almost make it seem like they're the only ones who are true you kind of you kind of get that idea and and let me let me show you some of what they teach directly from from from their book here and and let's take a look at this this is from page four of ruach holy spirit uh true hebra teachers and i'm going to show you here there's an ethnic caste system i have a very strong belief that one of the one of another nation cannot teach the scriptures so again i'm going to read i'm going to read that now remember earlier i said sometimes it seems like they let the white guys teach but maybe he's either changes position on that or he only lets him teach like on videos but listen to this i have a very strong belief that one of another nation cannot teach the scriptures unless a true hebru a descendant of abraham azek and jakeb has taught them so they literally have a system where you have to be taught by someone who's deemed to be a real israelite to be able to teach the bible so it's not just about learning the bible it's you have to be taught by an israelite but i just want to bring out um do you think the Pharisees that jesus was dealing with were taught by true hebrus do you think the Sadducees were taught by true hebrus of course they were it doesn't have anything to do with your truth and look at this true hebrus come from this family they are not adopted they were born into this family just like i cannot ever be part of your natural family unless i was adopted in now listen to this christians are not israelites just like these modern day imposters called jews are not hebrus nor are they israelites they are teaching another message another gospel which you cannot find in the bible most of these people who are of other nations teach christianity messianic a new movement called hebrus roots etc they all ignore the clear word of ya we he has the tetragrammaton there so that's how pastor dow speaks about you know us when he writes and and so we're just bringing out what he what he what he teaches right and and you even get a little bit of supremacy even in dow and notice i said he was one of the least racist out of them all but listen to this look what he says here in verse 39 peter said this was the promise not only to you but to your children and to all that are far off do not forget that peter was addressing ye men of israel why do i continue to put emphasis on this and listen to this quote our spirit and passion is very different than those of other nations look at true israel and you can see our spirit is very different i mean it that's a soft form of supremacy you know i don't even know he's i didn't even got a bible verse there it's not even a bible verse there right and look he basically compares himself to jesus this is from page seven listen to this john came and preached repentance and cried for the people to prepare the way of yaway john preached and the people john preached and the people would confess their sins to ya well maybe he's more comparing himself to john the baptist here to be fair but john preached and the people would confess their sins to ya and he would rebuke the religious order of his day the same way i rebuke this wicked false religious order of this day i will not relax the truth for anyone so i'm just showing you some of what uh he puts and and and you get the idea that is anyone else teaching the truth look at page eight i've been filled with the ruach for over 25 years and it amazes me how the ministers of the day never put emphasis on the importance of receiving this last manifestation of ya before the kingdom comes before the king comes i'm convinced these ministers have not had the true experience if they did they would teach and preach with the apostles apostles of messiah said you get the idea like is he the only one do you see that do you see this and look at look at this page eight um here's basically where you get a little a little bit of work salvation somebody needs to tell you there are steps that need to be taken out salvation and conditions that must be met well what are those i thought it was believe in your heart and confess with your mouth again you do not receive the holy spirit just because you repent you still have a few more steps to go in order to get the fullness and you go on and on and you know you you you kind of see this and the stuff he has in writing is not even necessarily the kind of worse stuff you know what i mean because the worst stuff is kind of in some of the sermons especially when he's um when he's like you know really getting unhinged but like i said he's not as bad as some of the other groups i constantly try to go out of my way to differentiate when Nathaniel taught and what he taught in this interview but let me read one more thing because i'm going off a little bit just to address these elders that are in the chat just to show you how they talk about us quarry page 15 of the same book written by charles dowell the pagan christians who called sunday the sabbath are nothing but liars there's no need in dressing it up they are literally antichrist so that's the way they talk about us and that's charles dowell one of the better groups i'm just saying yeah let me let me put this on the screen because someone i want to address this there's uh you guys talk about hebrew uh about hebrew's the more you legitimate uh or legitimize what they speak of if what they say isn't true then let it fall by the wayside and and i would love to do so as a matter of fact partly i was kind of doing so here's the problem though it's gaining traction and it's becoming more and more appealing to people the more you turn on tv and the more the more the world tells you that all of these different groups are disenfranchised and and what you end up doing is you create more frustration more anger more hate and so you give them an outlet because they may still believe in god and so here here's the god and here's how you get to him and based on your race uh the reason why you've had these things happen to you is because there's this hatred of the devil towards you and your skin and so forth and your lineage and that becomes appealing i don't know how old you are uh justin but some of us who are old enough to remember when roots came out when roots came out none of us that we knew nobody knew anybody that was a slave or a former slave master but i can promise you a whole lot of black folks got angry because they they was something that you know we can identify with this well this same little movement uh is happening and more and more folks who who are being told they are disenfranchised who are being told that they've got a reason to be angry or frustrated now we've got a religious group that you can become a part of and notice the one thing about every cult and i call it a cult every cult does that it latches on to someone's emotional or frustration and in doing so in doing so it appeals to people who think that and so there's a we have to it's a growing group of people and they are they're causing harm in the body we've got to let folks know about the wolves whether they be wolves who call themselves christians or wolves who call themselves heber israelites so that's the reason for that jesson all right but i uh can i show you um maybe uh we got a couple more clips but i also want to let me show one thing where you see christianity misrepresented if you could play the last clip the last clip uh that would be five it's no six six yeah you can't do it when you look at the history of christianity it actually started in the in the third century by the roman emperor constantine but prior to that how it actually came into being is was all of these these northern countries like the vikings the west sex the the scandinavians the saxons and all of these people when they were raiding england and all this they they ended up merging with england and they end up becoming the church of england um and the church of england uh got its start because of the roman catholic church the romans were actually one time militarily a great empire they went from being a great empire to religious and that's what a roman catholic church comes so now the roman catholic church is the big grandpubah of christianity and so if you are obeying what christianity says such as um obeying the sun worship of sunday if you are celebrating their holidays uh christmas easter sunday and all this well if you're going to be obedient to yah he has instructions for wow well yeah it was so crazy it it was so crazy it not vocab office seat okay so history is not their strong suit clearly well they they would say that's the true the true history and one you know immediate mistake and you know we all can all make mistakes but he said started in the third century well uh consenting's activity was in the fourth century the early the early fourth century so 325 ad for example someone's asking what did he say wrong well 325 ad was a council of nicaea when a lot of conspiracy theorists try to say christianity began and they'll tie it there when they tie it to christianity as he invented christianity well 325 is early fourth century and it's not the third century third century would be in the 200s so just you know some a basic era there but you know uh that's simply not true and we have this we have this problem and and i i it bothers me um there there is no as we say you can't fix stupid it'd be one thing if you just say something intentionally it'd be one thing if you say something wrong that's unintentional i'm not sure what's going on here but you need to at least look at history and we have this problem where listen i'm no fan of the catholic church but we blame two people on everything the catholic church and consenting right we literally guys we got we've got writings we've got names we have early church fathers writings that predate these people the predates the catholic church the organization as well as consenting by a couple centuries guys and so we can always go back and just do the history just do the research not even not even just christian it's just history period it is it is ridiculous documents in early church early christian thought uh i'm just showing some examples where we can see what early christian said literally in their own words in a lot of these are prior to consenting so regardless of if he got the fourth century third sensory thing wrong or not we can go back and and see what they believed and taught and guess what they taught sorry for the out of focus that jesus was god they did not teach uh that jesus was created that's what when i see it was about was was was that belief correct that arius was promoting and pushing and uh it was unanimous uh well 316 to 2 is the understanding of the vote it was almost unanimous that jesus was homo uceus not homo uceus meaning of the same substance of the father meaning that he and the father are both divine and uncreated not that jesus was created because the arians taught that jesus was created so 325 and i see it was not about all these other things it was mainly primarily about the the deity of jesus christ and you can go back and read these early christian doctrines and sometimes you can read a compendium like this or you can read one like this the history of christian doctrines these are really good books dictionary of early christian beliefs and you can see what they say and it's not true that this thing was invented you know you read the epistle to diagnosis and you see oh this is justification by faith alone by grace alone it's all throughout the epistle diagnosis then you can see it right there and so that we're not acting like every early christian church writer agrees 100 with us now they're their own people in their own time in their own context what i'm just saying is though it wasn't christianity invented by constantine or something like that all these things that already been talked about and discussed and um and a lot of times settled albeit not officially because we had persecution at that time and so it's a false narrative are we acting like there wasn't a thing called the holy roman empire later on are we acting like uh constantine and later roman emperors didn't do anything uh at all no we're not gonna say that you know we can read books for example with ucb is ecclesiastical history and we can read other sources and find these things find these things out but we don't want to make stuff up is what i'm saying and you there you get it so christianity's pagan it's invented by constantine it's not true for example the doctrine of the trinity the doctrine of the trinity was laid out way before our constantine and nicaea didn't even discuss the trinity so that's not what it was about for example you have tritulian african church father using the latin word trinitas in 212 ad wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute hold up stop the presses hold on what did you just call tritulian african well he is an african church father yeah so that's right really so you mean to me there were some black folks i'm kidding i'm just well no i don't know i mean actually the besides once jerusalem fell you know 70 ad uh early on before that you know the jerusalem church is very important and probably second most the anti-arch church in syria are some very important early centers of christianity but as things moved out and spread out the north african church was by far where all the action was happened even nicaea was called because of theological debates between two af well in the in the in the context of an african church alexander of alexandria and and he had an sort of an understudy who is named athanasius who later on took up the mantle for uh jesus's deity versus arias and so it's in a north african church context alexandria specifically egypt that this is even happening and the same thing with the dosatis contra controversy is i'm sorry the donatus controversy primarily is african and that's why you have augustin years later another african church father writing on it so the north african church is incredibly important and uh there's some evidence that that mark for example the apostle mark even went there uh to africa and did some important things there uh there's a good book about it by thomas odin and even in the book of ax ax 18 24 through 28 apollos comes from alexandria says a jew from alexandria came debated everybody in public and then later on uh was was important to the carinthian church and that's why he pops up in the opening chapters of that as well he's not the only one of course ethiopia the eunuch was also from africa so that is important to remember and uh you know those folks would have been considered Gentiles by the people living in Jerusalem but they were able to be part of the bigger people of god and the problem with the i u i c version of hebrism is it excludes people and even dowels folks recognize that in fact i just want to show dowels folks i'm not uh hating on them the way they think i hate on them i actually want to play two clips quarry that you and i basically would agree with and we could use against one west hebris lights okay it's uh clip four and five i don't know if you have a different order but it's the one about esther and the one about timothy there's two different ones okay but yeah check it out he makes some good points here check this out a man by the name of timothy who had a father who was a greek but his mother was a yehudi or jewish which you would read in the book him is the one that paul talked now if you listen to a lot of these doctors today they would say based on the nationality of his father he couldn't be in his real life but that's after the flesh that's not after the spirit because now paul took him circumcised him and then only that gave him instructions to ordain elders in every city so paul them they didn't if the greek man his father was a white man at that time paul didn't use that as a means to discriminate this man and his love for y'all his love for jesus okay what do you think quarry um be honest with you i'm absolutely looking for you to text okay okay i'm sorry so there he made points we would mainly agree with so he brought out the case of timothy timothy's father is clearly described as a greek now what the one west heber is lights do and they would disagree with dow and straightway in this they try to say greek actually means a hebru who is actually living like a greek instead of just letting the word speak for itself because it says greek they'll try to say well actually no no that's uh that's that's like a heber who's greek well those are word for that it's called a helanized helanized jew and or and that or helanized heber and that appears in x6 but that's not what's used to describe timothy is it no timothy's described as one who has a father who was a greek and that makes sense why he also was not circumcised yet right and you can see this in ax chapter 18 so again i'm agreeing with that point maybe a pastor dow there and he's using that point against other heber is lights and then in that spot he is correct so look at this here's what it says where to go uh wait was it isn't ax 18 no no no no getting lost no that's a reunion amongst them i'm trying to find the place where it describes uh tim his father i'm going to find it in just a second here but timothy is described as one who has a greek and he does get circumcised you know he he does uh do that later on and uh that's a big commitment right imagine doing that once you're older right yeah that's a big deal oh yeah it's it's uh i think it's ax 6 but so he's showing there that timothy is able even though his father was a greek and his mother was the the jewish person in the relationship he's still able to be a travel companion he's a minister of the gospel and in fact later on he's a pastor of the churches of of emphasis and and things like that and and dow also brought that out he said hey he gave him instructions and that's where those instructions appear that the elders are supposed to only have one wife also that's where that appears actually is in timothy and so you you see this very issue with timothy and you say okay so we can agree with him there he's he's right there right that his father was a greek we agree that's true and i think that's important and um you know what's interesting about that is remember he said in his book that uh you could only have a gentile who could only teach if he was taught by hebu right well it's true that paul was taught by timothy uh i'm sorry timothy was taught by paul that's true that timothy was taught by paul in fact he describes him as his true son in the faith right but when paul tells timothy to appoint men like he does titus who is also a gentile he never gives the qualification that they have to be a hebu taught by another hebu he just gives their character qualifications and says they must be apt to teach you would have to insert the idea that they have to be a hebu taught by a fellow hebu and in fact he wouldn't even meet that qualification so if he's not a hebu how then could he teach the elders he's appointing because they're not going to be taught by paul they're going to be taught by timothy or someone who's associated with him so he himself is not a hebu on his father's side so how then he would he be allowed to even teach the people that he's supposed to be appointing do you see what i'm saying and i'm just going back to to go against the point that he's that he said there that i feel very strongly that they've got to uh you know be taught by hebrus well it doesn't say that so we agree with him in one place but i think it counteracts him in another place and let me just show you first timothy three this saying is trustworthy if anyone aspires to the officer of oversee here desires a noble task therefore an overseer must be above reproach the husband of one wife sober minded self-controlled respectable hospitable able to teach not a drunkard not violent but gentle and that's why i said elder rufus shouldn't have said he was going to punch me not quarrelsome not a lover of money he must manage his own household well with all dignity keeping his children submissive for if someone does not know how to manage his own household how we care for the god's church he must not be a recent convert or he maybe can puffed up with conceit and follow the condemnation of the devil moreover he must be well thought of by outslutter so that he may not fall in disgrace into a snare of the devil notice none of those are ethnic qualifications are they none of them say that who your teachers were either it's character and skill it's more emphasis on character but skill able to teach that one is in there as well but we agree with dow that this does show gentiles at least if we're counting on the father side uh or people who are mixed descent whatever way you want to go with it are definitely included so he is right about that basic point okay um you said you did you want to go ahead and play that other clip last one and then i really feel like i want to make sure you ask me questions i almost feel like i took over the show i feel really listen this is this this is wonderful there there aren't too many people who know this stuff about them like you and so me i'll say listen i can say what i want to say uh answer the scriptures but you've got a good understanding of how they work plus you got a good handle of the scriptures so uh you you you far out do me in in in this regard i don't i don't know much about them uh other than what they say about the and by the way uh you guys i told you send me email the little historical stuff i'm not i won't go to the back and forth about uh the historical aspects of this and that and racial components of no we're gonna go through the book because at least we can agree on that we've got this book that's gonna be our that is if you do agree that the book is our guide and so we'll go through that and see if we can read this thing in context and before we do i'm gonna ask you some some ground rules about how you read because i'm gonna hold you to whatever your definition uh or your hermeneutic is and we're gonna apply your hermeneutic your hermeneutic to reading the scriptures and then we're gonna see if you will stand by your own hermeneutic and so but no i i i am uh getting a lot out of and i'm sure the audience is getting a lot out of use uh doing the majority listen this is this this is your uh this is your show so well i appreciate it you know and you've done a lot of work to build up this platform um it's it's it's like this i want everyone to notice again remember what i tried to do i hope it was somewhat successful in the beginning it showed some of the differences between iuic and straightway these are just two of the many heber isolite groups specific reason why i focus on them because you got to start somewhere and they both made recent appearances on a large conservative media platform that a lot of people have access to or a watch that's not a traditional heber's like platform so this is literally very fresh and an important way to to show the growth and the continued visibility of this thing and it's not going to go away so christians will need to learn about this if they want to do their due diligence but notice how i did not say that they were identical or the same some of the points i'm making would only work with certain groups because they're specific to what they believe now some of them would work with all the groups but notice you know i see um elder rufus or or brother daniel mur i think also saying i was slandering or lying or something what was the lie show me where it was they didn't give any examples and shout out to everyone else you know you got chris out here alton johnson d new mistylus two some great people in the live chat want to give love to but it's not just about debating for the point of debating i i wish heber's lights could see we genuinely um believe that this doctrine is dragging people off into an unhealthy place and we don't have to we don't have to name call or ridicule some people might do that might do that sometimes but i'm saying the substance of the critique against heber islism or some of the bad ideas that it entails and you guys should be able to handle that especially a straight way you have no problem talking however about christians and christian churches and name calling we're asking let us criticize you as well because we're going to make legit criticisms of what you teach and believe and let's find out who is true i would be willing to debate pastor dowel i don't think i'd want to go to tennessee and do it in his backyard on their property but i would be very open and willing to debating him or someone a straight way or we could have private conversations i'm down but let me show you just again to continue to extend the olive branch another place where we would agree with something pastor dowel said over and again some of the heber's lights that we would both agree are wrong about it's the last clip it's clip five okay i think i got a little out of where i think this is it though i can't do it when you look at the history of christianity it actually started in the third century so it must be must be sixth then let's see if that's it a man by the name of timothy who had a father who was a greek but his mother wasn't your houdi or jewish which you were reading the book him is the one that paul talked now if you listen to a lot of these doctors today they were saying that's not it either okay that's what we just talked about that's where he's he's using that verse against i u i c who made appearance on the show as well it's either four or five that i've got number let's let me click on four they put it out that these they know that uh they gotta go ahead and fight against these people but you know what it says over in ester eight seventeen it says and many people of the land became jews this is a pagan country that now the people because of their fear of the israelites because of the way that the god of israel protected them they became jews that's what the book says also there's a man by the name of timothy who had a father who was a greek but his mother wasn't your houdi or jewish which you were reading the book him is the one that paul talked now if you listen to a lot of these doctors today they would say based on the nationality of his father he couldn't be an israelite but that's after the was that was that the right click yeah but did you hear what he said about the the book of ester what was the point that he's trying to make okay so so his point again the reason i just hope everyone understands the reason why i just asked to play that is i'm trying to show a few things one is some of the differences between heber his lights they don't all teach the exact same thing and one is to show you a place where we could actually agree with them uh there it was specifically ester eight seventeen what's going on there in the book of ester is hayman who's in the malachite hates the jewish people and wants to wipe them out so he builds the gallows he's especially upset at more to ki because he doesn't give him his proper due he feels and there's a whole story where god is clearly working and then by the end of it uh everything is reversed and the order of killing jews is still basically allowed but the counter order is given this is when jews were under subjugation by a foreign power and the counter order is jews are allowed to defend themselves and eight seventeen says many became jews themselves now that's very fascinating so how did they become jews it seems and i think i'm agreeing with pastor dow here it's by conversion it seems it's by conversion and and the point there would be how can they convert into judeism or become jews if that's something that other nations can't do because remember he said this is a pagan people these aren't israelites around them they're gentiles so um maybe they we don't know the extent because it's a very brief comment but i'm just giving some commentary to terry to estra eight seventeen which some people may never have seen this verse this is an important verse and we would use it against i u i c but we would actually agree was straightway and their interpretation of this verse does it mean that they adopted jewish practices adopted jewish custom and what way does it mean the males became circumcised all that information is not given but in some way god used this situation to have persians believe in the hebrew god and in some way become jews that's what it says so something that was gonna that satan designed to destroy the jewish people god turns around and uses by the end of the book to actually grow their numbers which is a beautiful thing so he wanted to overpower them nine one says but instead the opposite thing happened and so we would agree there and i just brought that out because one of the reasons dow wanted to come on to speak to jason on fearless was because he had disagreed with some of the divisive statements that you had heard i u i c's leader nathan you'll make in regards to quote other nations so this would be a place we agree with the problem is though what does it mean to convert because here there's one thing that you would do if you wanted to join up with the nation of israel would be one thing but jesus christ has come ladies and gentlemen and now in the full light of the gospel we don't need to dump all the jewish tradition and custom on top of ourselves whether we're jew or gentile now you have christian freedom the bible talks about everything i'm saying here but it's no longer required and that's what the very book of galatians is about because paul says look you started in spirit now you're going to end in a different way you become beguiled by a different gospel anathema on those who preach it and flippings he says if they're going to talk about getting cut circumcision let them cut themselves off all the way and galatians paul says that circumcision and the kjv availeth nothing so these are radical statements for a person who was a former Pharisee and rabbi to make the reason he makes them is because he understands the full implications of the death burial resurrection ascension and soon coming return of jesus christ unlike most ciber israelites because they don't have the fullness of the gospel unfortunately hey man let me answer this question uh i know we're getting close close to the end or after a pastor or time we're going to do but let me ask you a question if i am i'm not vocab malone and i come in contact with some heber israelite or some variation thereof what should i expect and then how shall i what what what are some things that i should make sure that i mention to them if i if i want to have this because the bible says sanctify christ in your heart and always be ready to give a defense and so how do we do so well um i think it's so important to ask questions you know behind me i have this banner for a book i wrote called street level apologetics and i try to show people how to how to ask questions that can help get a dialogue rolling and ask questions that help you understand where a person's coming from so it's really important just to try to understand what they believe first and be willing to correct if you misunderstand something they believe right so that's really important um and i really would emphasize just doing that because you don't want to criticize something that they don't even believe right and that's an easy mistake to make they would usually say that that's what i do but i try not to do that because what's the point if it's built upon lies it won't last so the key thing is really asking questions is to be able to do that so you can know what they believe before you interact um this is more in a one-on-one or smaller kind of you know situation that's chill Cory if you're talking about out on the street it's a whole different ballgame right it's a whole different set of circumstances usually but the reason why i emphasize trying to understand what they believe is because most of us don't understand what they believe if we think they're all the same we'll be wrong but we can catch a few things so you don't have to understand everything they believe to be able to interact because there's usually still some problems there and the reason why i emphasize that clausians four five six walking wisdom toward outsiders making the best use of the time let your speech always be gracious season with salt so that you may know how you ought to answer each person see there's a distinct individuality where you know how to answer each individual person and so that's why i would encourage that first and foremost but i mean what are the big things right it's god in the gospel god in the gospel who is god what is the gospel and so unfortunately most heber's lights are wrong on those two big issues most heber's lights are non-trinitarian they do not believe father son and spirit eternally exist as three distinct yet co-equal co-eternal co-powerful persons however you want to find the trinity as long as it's actually trinitarian and not modalism yeah they don't believe that and that's because most heber's lights believe that jesus christ was a created being and most of them do not believe holy spirit is an individual person a distinct person in any way now when we say person we don't mean human we're not saying the holy spirit's a human only jesus was incarnated person is a way to identify distinct personality now dowell's understanding of the trinity you don't hear them talk about a lot about i feel like they're a little closer to modalist but i could be wrong on that and that's part of the problem i've listened to hours of straightway teaching and interviews and i've never heard a clear discussion of the trinity now maybe one of the gentlemen in the live chat can point me to some and i'll learn about it and i'd love to hear it but how can you have this ministry where you bang on christians say they're pagan and yet you never talk about the nature of god it shows the topsy turvy of the nature of the priority with a lot of these groups but here's my point your question kory is ask them about what they believe about who god is because that's very fundamental and so every christian regardless of if they understand he is is there is there is there is realism or not should be able to by god's grace with love defend the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of christ the full deity of christ i don't mean the jesus who's created who then created everything else that's what the jahovah's witness been believing this whole time that's what area i don't mean that jesus who's actually an angel and that's really all he is is like an exalted angel i don't mean that none of those jesus is because those are another jesus and so those jesus can't say because if you're not fully god you can't properly pay for sin because you're going to have your own sin to deal with only god can actually deal with the sin problem alone because he alone is perfect so the key thing is who is god you could even say what is god if you're talking about the the nature and characteristics it's very very important kory you'll hardly ever find any group who wants to talk about it so notice i'm trying to tell you to talk to heber's lights about it because it matters it affects everything but most don't want to talk about the nature of god that seems problematic that that's not even high on their priority list number two is what is the gospel you got to know aphesians two eight nine ten be able to break it down you got to know multiple passages in romans three and four especially you got to be able to look at key passages really in the whole book of galatians that's probably the book most important to be familiar with and have some understanding of what grace is what faith alone means and how these things relate to from the from the new covenant to the old covenant so those are important things and really be able to talk about what the gospel is because a lot of these guys will say they believe in the gospel they'll say they believe in the good news but then when you listen to them it's sort of a mixture of different things they add this they add that they add this they add that and that's why you got them calling us antichrist because they think we go to church on the wrong day you know what i mean if i would if you want to be there on a saturday you have christian freedom to do so but i also remember multiple verses about don't judge another man based upon the Sabbath and one day is sacred to one one another to another okay then why are they trying to push some of the old covenant stipulations which are no longer required upon us yeah christ is our staff so to me who is god what is the gospel those are the key things that stick out but i'm gonna tell you what kory they're gonna make it hard because they want to go to other verses or other things like documentaries by ron dalton jr a lot of times very difficult to get on those two important topics with these guys a lot of times yeah i i this is this is me guys now you come into contact with the heber Israelite tell them this what you do tell them that i've been listening to vocab malone and then they'll go running they'll they'll leave you alone though they'll they'll scurry but i would say just like you're talking to anybody whether it be a heber Israelite whether it be a muslim whether it be an atheist whatever it is um the first responsibility is still to you to know the scriptures paul says it this way he says do your best i'm speaking to timothy uh in this pastoral pistol but it still applies to us do your best to present yourself to god as one of proof a worker who has no need to be ashamed rightly handling or dividing the word of truth and look the next thing he says but avoid irreverent babble for it will lead people into more and more and god there comes a point in time when you're talking to someone you have a conversation and you see it's going nowhere at that point in time okay fine fine uh we're talking about uh who this is who that is whatever you know there come a point time where you might just want to back up but the still the onus is on you to know the scriptures for yourself because it might not be he was like there are other people there are other cults out there other than heber Israelite and so it's still incumbent upon you to know the scriptures for yourself one for yourself for your family uh and then to spread you need to be able to spread the gospel and if you don't know the words it's going to be kind of hard for you to spread it and to defend it and so that's why when Peter says always be ready that means that you have spent some time in it in other words you know what the real McCoy looks like so when someone brings you a false a fake someone comes and brings you a $30 bill or $4 bill then you understand wait a second this says this something jive right here and so I think that's the best thing you can do um it's good to study for the sake of studying to be able to prove a point or defend a point but also study just to enrich yourself and you you if nothing else if nothing else you have become more solidified in your view and belief and understanding of the Bible so I would just make sure that everyone is also taking their time to study I think YouTube the the christian channels on YouTube I think they are wonderful I like the diversity even when we disagree but don't let that uh be something that you would supplant in place of your own study time your own reading it's one thing to hear what he has to say or that person has to say but also get into it for yourself you got questions there's a lot of channels you can turn to or type in questions and so forth and and then by all means make your way to smart christian's channel we'll cover these things and we'll have these different conversations and we'll we'll do our best to say hey this what I agree this what I don't agree with this is why if someone tells you what they believe and don't tell you why well then to me that's a little bit shady and shaky uh we've got we've got another live stream later where we're going to cover somebody who makes a statement about these you know we're talking about about these demons and said that's not biblical as a matter of fact the scripture that he uses you can look at the scriptures and see that's off you didn't even say what you just said it said and so you want to be able to do that just be able to walk through it for yourself so that no one can lead you astray amen amen so we have definitely got to got to do this we got up I think to almost 500 or to 500 people pretty good for the middle of the day because most of my most of the viewers don't come till the 4 30 ish 5 o'clock time and so forth so I think that's pretty good again guys make sure that you go and you check out not just check out but subscribe to vocab's channel uh if you want to know the name of the channel it's called vocab Malone pretty easy uh or listen just type in Hebrew Israelite debates I promise you his name is going to pop up it YouTube has some kind of contractual agreement to put vocab on there and so when you go there make sure that you go to the channel check them out you will see I think he catches a lot of them and he and guess what he's talking to the different groups he's talking to all these different folks folks that I god bless him me um it I probably would not handle it myself the same way but he is blessed in that regard the guy is without question a treasure to the body and so check him out also I'm looking at Alton's um Alton's make sure you all go and check him out as well subscribe to him as well guys so listen guys I thank you all for being here vocab we definitely without question have to do this again also next time you come into Dallas I want to be out on the streets with you see what you know see you going at these people so um do you have anything else to say as we get ready to depart vocab well I just encourage everyone to study an interesting concept that we didn't have time to get into but the concept of the law of Christ the law of Christ because I see a lot of the straight way folks saying well god god you got to keep god's law because you said if you love me keep my commandments often I never hear them talk about the law of Christ it's an important thing that's brought up in 1 Corinthians 921 where Paul says he's under the law of Christ and then of course in Galatians 6 chapter 2 where he says when you bear one of those burdens you fulfill the law of Christ and then you have James who speaks about the royal law and that's in James 2 8 through 13 and the indication seems to be there that it's dealing with Jesus's greatest commands right love the Lord to God and love your neighbor as yourself and that is the emphasis and that's what everything in the Old Testament hangs upon and so that's what we're supposed to do but all the regulations and requirements that um that are folks are trying to put upon us that is not what it's all about Romans 10 4 for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes Galatians 3 23 to 25 but now before faith came we were held captive under the law in prison until coming faith would be revealed so then the law was our guardian until Christ came in order that we might be justified by faith but now that faith has come we are no longer under that guardian that's very important we're no longer under a guardian anymore everybody things are different under the new covenant Ephesians 2 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two so making peace there's another of other important verses now we're not antinomians this doesn't mean that we can just go out and do whatever it doesn't matter that's never what Christians are saying unless they're antinomians and that's a heresy that we've already uh declared to be heresy because it is and so that's not what we're saying but I want people to really look at that before someone tries to get you and trap you basically by living as if Jesus has never come because Paul says well if that's a case then why did christ need to die on the cross for sins it's like Galatians is there everybody so study that concept law of Christ and what does that mean for a new covenant believer and that goes I hope for the elders uh at at straightway I hope they can do that and I think we can have a fruitful discussion about that that would be a great debate topic uh what is the law of Christ that'd be a very fascinating thing to discuss but uh yeah thanks for having me on core I really appreciate it hey man listen all you guys uh thank you all for being here uh we'll be back again in what uh in two and a half hours uh to talk about this issue with Christians being supposedly demon possessed so in the meantime guys go get you some lunch take your nap uh clock back in to work let your boss know that you were listening to vocab alone on the smart christians channel tell your boss that uh to subscribe and that uh pay you for the time that you've been watching this video anyway guys see you all later on stay blessed hey man