speed limit changes You have to put up a sign and the signs cost how much jamey? 167 dollars each each and if we can't get them but are those the correct size? I think the chairs that we need I don't know that And we just think we need to do this Who's we the town I know but yeah, so I'm still working on with the trans But I don't think they're the ones that can give us yay or nay as far as Pausing or holding or the side of I think either But those yeah, you know sippy trans can tell us this is exactly the steps y'all need to take this is, you know The most practical way because it's a huge number of roads, which is another reason Speed monitoring things, you know the mobility and can be moved them around to all of these various places Who can assess everywhere that needs to be assessed? Anyway, it's a lot of signs So it's going to be a lot of money. Was there a big um outcry for these changes? Yes Yeah, we certain You know a very vocal segment. Yes. I think because of concerns about speeding and I think the idea is that If you lower the speed limit Then people will behave better, but usually people that aren't going to behave aren't necessarily good I know that there have been people on the paved section of the county road that have been requesting this change for many years And I know that in the last Two weeks I've corresponded with quite a few people about this particular issue and the general Feeling I get from those communications is that They support it. They want the speed limits to go down, but they want it to be done properly and enforceably Yeah, enforceably, I guess it gets kind of anecdotal, but you know, I was on the road this morning and there was somebody driving exceptionally fast, you know, like So fast And And kind of to Ant's point is one thing to change the signage But you have to be able to enforce it and if there's nobody there to enforce it I really don't see how the behavior changes And you know, I think that there's a lot of compelling conversation about how we get data how we how we leverage limited resources to To try to get targeted enforcement and try to actually impact behavior Uh, it's a complicated thing Um, anyway, yeah The data would be Good, you know, I mean coming down through here. What is this speed limit on north palace road right now? I think it's 35 on a on a class 3 road, uh, if it's unposted If it's not otherwise posted, it's uh, it's 35 miles an hour on a faster So I'm like a little over 25 Oh This grade it is so beautiful And then they changed the speed signs on county run on the paper No, they haven't even ordered this. They haven't right. They're holding off It's waiting a waiting instruction from us on what signs to buy well They wanted to wait to make sure the ordinance was going to go through and then we discovered that well, maybe not right way So that'll be on hold for Okay, anything else it's nine o'clock. I'm so sorry you guys we have to have take an action to delegate a committee for the union negotiation We need to establish we actually need to We need to establish the commission Okay, so we just have council the bargaining So so we I sort of put it in the minutes of that the fifth last Wednesday But we so what we need to do is But it's like an official because it's the whole warning and we're like that separate group of Are you saying you need me to put in a warning or are you saying we just need a motion or what we're Was there an appointment? I put it that when we came out of executive session We hired we said we wanted to go with maryland and we appointed jamie and and to Be the liaisons So as part of the Do you want the april fifth minutes? I think it did say that But we could as part of the roads update Amend that if we wanted to yeah, so is that Is this something maryland told you? Is that is there something official? No that I just missed that and Minutes from the on the fifth, okay So let's uh, would somebody move to appoint jordan also as part of our bargaining team So okay to point you I don't know Remember on the bargaining We're appointing jordan council for commission to put this under the roads thing I know we didn't want it. I guess we can ratified if we need to but for now we're appointing jordan to be part of the bargaining team For purposes of collective bargaining with the road crew To the bargaining team with the union The way maryland explained it to us is all five of us are part of the bargainers But the team is the one that has to be in all the meetings So that means you're gonna if there's gonna be three there's many says three of you, right? Yeah So everything will have to be more it doesn't matter actually that was the clarification that we that was the clarification that we got today was that the It wouldn't matter if it were two of us or two of us because because it's an official delegation It's a it's a special commission Um, it becomes it's I thought maybe you were saying it should have been born today This wasn't because you thought there were two select board members and there ended up being three Well, it was yeah a little of all of it So it was a misinterpretation Yeah, it was it was a miscommunication all the way around but the clarification also clarified that it doesn't matter if it's one two or three As soon as there's a committee that's established for that purpose That it becomes a part portion of the body that needs to be worn. All right. We have a motion on the table Let's make sure we got the motion Gabrielle moved that Jordan be added to the bargaining team That will bargain with the road crew union Okay, do we have a second second and and seconded Is there discussion? I'm sorry. I can't talk in the business. That's a fact in second way Okay, all in favor Okay So in that um line, do you want me to write the other two members of this bargaining team? Well, they were in the last minutes. Oh, so we're just adding them to that team. Okay Those I just wrote those minutes. We just know I didn't see that's why they're They're posted on the website So you can you can get the wording from that though for the april fifth executive session You could follow the wording from that because she wrote it Guys Barbara you have something to say before we adjourn. That's okay. It can wait. Are you sure? Yeah, okay. I'll bless your heart Okay, all right, so um I do I want to see the two the two road commissioners just for like a quick two minutes. Okay, okay Do we have to vote to adjourn? I think I haven't been doing it that way. Can we can I just declare us an adjournment? I have a motion to adjourn Okay, no, I declare us adjourned


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Why the current unemployment is worse than the Great Depression, by Robert P. Murphy, an audio-mesis wire narrated by Million Quinteros. The latest report on new unemployment claims was abysmal, coming in at 4.4 million last week, some 100,000 more than surveyed economists had expected. The continuous claims came in at just under 16 million, an all-time record. Mainstream labor economists estimate that, all things considered, the actual unemployment rate now, which is only officially reported with a lag, is above 20 percent, a rate not seen since the darkest days of the Great Depression. Indeed, all of the job gains since the Great Recession have been wiped out in just a matter of weeks. What's worse, even though the official unemployment rate is probably not quite as high as it was in 1933, when it averaged 24.9 percent. There are reasons to believe that our labor market is currently in even worse shape economically than it was at the lowest depths of the Great Depression. Furthermore, once we take into account insights from Austrian capital theory, we can see why Keynesian hopes for a rapid recovery and calls for longer lockdowns due to health concerns are misguided. Why the current unemployment is worse than the Great Depression In the first place, there is a technical reason that the government's official unemployment figures for 1933 are misleading. At that time, people who held make-work jobs funded by government relief efforts were counted as unemployed. In my opinion, this was the correct judgment. If instead we use adjusted figures according to Darby 1976, then annual unemployment during the Depression peaked at 22.5 percent in 1932. In other words, if we count unemployment in the 1930s the way we count it today, then arguably the official rate is already the worst in US history, period. However, besides this technical issue, there is a much more fundamental difference between unemployment in the early 1930s and today. Back then, the people out of work had been laid off, yet today the people out of work are in lockdown. This is an enormous distinction. When the economy crashed following the stock market in 1929, consumers restricted their spending according to their preferences as to what was most expendable. Some businesses went under completely, and these were the businesses that were the least important according to their customers. At the same time, plenty of other businesses remained afloat, but they cut back their workforces. Again, businesses laid off the most expendable workers as judged by the managers and owners. Intuitively, during the Great Depression and any other standard recession for that matter, the economic system sheds those jobs that are the least important in order to gradually reallocate workers into niches that are more appropriate. The deeper the malinvestments have been during the boom phase, the more workers will find themselves in unsustainable outlets when the crash occurs. But given the fact that x% of the jobs need to disappear, the market economy during a normal downturn sheds them in the most economical areas, causing as little disruption to the flow of goods and services as judged by the consumers. In complete contrast, today the principal criteria for which 20% of current workers have lost their jobs are. Number one, they don't work in an occupation that can be done from home, and number two, they aren't deemed essential by government officials. Naturally, these criteria don't come close to approximating what is the most economical way to shed jobs from the perspective of consumers. An analogy with a household budget. In the previous section, I argued that our current labor market disruption was much more economically significant than what was seen even during the depths of the Great Depression. Let me use an analogy to drive home the point. Suppose your household were forced to restrict its spending by 25%. Indeed, this might not be a mere hypothetical for many unfortunate readers right now. However, there are two options for achieving this outcome. Under option number one, the adults in the household get to decide where they will cut their spending, subject to the requirement that they reduce the total by 25%. Under option number two, an outside government official, in consultation with various experts, forces the household not only to cut spending by 25%, but also specifies where the spending cuts will occur. Which option would be more burdensome? The answer is clearly number two. Likewise, given that the economy has to endure an unemployment rate above 20%, it's far preferable if consumers and business owners get to effectively pick through voluntary market actions. Which workers are laid off? It is far more devastating to endure our current situation in which the workers who have lost their jobs have been selected by technological facts, i.e. whether a job can be done remotely or through the political process. Keynesians ignore capital structure. Besides the important distinction between layoffs and lockdowns, there is another reason that Keynesian economists are underestimating the devastation wrought by the current policies. Keynesians typically don't have a long-term capital structure in their models the way Austrians do. For example, consider this tweet from Larry Summers. The problem here is that Summers is viewing things through the lens of aggregate demand. Following a financial crisis, consumers and businesses try to pay down dead. And this means that only government pump priming can boost total spending up to full employment levels, especially if we're in a liquidity trap. But since that's not the issue here, Summers thinks that once the lockdown ends, all of the pent-up consumer demand will return and things should go back to normal. Why? It will be just like people going back to work on a Monday. Yet, what Summers is leaving out is that there's more to the economy than labor going into a production function in order to spit out goods for purchase. Each of us at our respective jobs uses all sorts of intermediate goods produced by other people in the distant or recent past. The weekend or tourist season at Cape Cod is a very predictable event. And we have enough inventories in food, refined gasoline, etc. to carry us over the hump. Likewise, if a certain area of the country gets hit with fires, an earthquake or a tornado, such that workers in that region can't get to their jobs even for weeks at a time, it's manageable because the rest of the economy can pick up the slack. But in our current lockdown, the entire country has been forcibly prevented from doing business as usual. The longer this process continues, the more our integrated complex capital structure is going to break down. It does no good for the carpenters to go back to work if there are no new nails available for them to use. Most states are currently poised to begin a phased return to work within the next week or two. So hopefully we can get ahead of the breakdown before it becomes too bad. But those economists arguing that we should extend the lockdown for many more months and that we can use government relief spending to carry us over the hump are being quite blind to the dangers in such a policy. Health vs GDP As a final note, let me mention that in our household, we are being extremely cautious about the coronavirus because of my wife's medical history. I am not elevating concerns of GDP over health. In fact, from a purely self-centered standpoint, I want low risk people to leave their homes so that they can get the virus and hopefully only suffer mild symptoms so that its overall prevalence in the community quickly fades away. This will make it safer for members of my household if and when we carefully venture out into the world after this initial period of isolation. For more content like this, visit Mises.org.


eferenced section 10.38 of the zoning bylaw specifically section 10.389 and 10.390 um are two uh sections that the board needs to make findings related to drainage and as i've advised the applicant several times over the last month or month and a half that it would be useful for the board to have this information as you make your findings for this decision um so um i'm happy to schedule a time for him to meet with myself in the building commissioner uh to discuss um discuss how uh he can provide that information to the board would it be useful for the board to create a list of other items that should be submitted i heard um some comments about um perhaps more information about the light fixtures yeah we heard we heard the HVAC um yeah just a at least a description of what it is and where it would be okay but we need to know the i think it's gravel for the parking is that i'm not sure i think it's gravel for the parking space but we should know what the what the parking is um color of the buildings um so um uh perhaps the applicant could provide like a sample of what that color would actually look like for each of the buildings i'm gonna go through my notes um i think we you know we want to talk to them about the ability to separate the units in the future um i think that's is a concern that i've heard from board members um so we wouldn't want to be able to sell units individually um i think we need to have some kind of a and even so i think the word the concern you were hearing is that this could be rental property in the in the future and so we we have to i think we want to um create conditions that mitigate the opportunity for that to happen and i think the best thing for do is to work with marine and the the staff they know this they know the board well and i think they've heard our concerns and i think they can relate those to you and you can decide if in december if you're prepared to to present to the board at that point and ask for us if you if you're ready if not you can ask for a continuous at a later point in time we're not closing it off and you can come back more than once mr maxill one thing i i definitely want to hear from the from the board before it finishes and excuse me it's it's very late for me i'm very tired at this point but i'll i'll try to be as articulate as i can um it sounds like uh from what we're hearing the applicant they're they're more than willing to do all this between now and the december 10th meeting to get the presentation together but i would like to hear from the board and i'll give my opinion as well as to the soil sample um the soil analysis and and you know trying to do that the same time uh as as digging the foundation and unless anyone seems to have some reason why why they couldn't do it it seems to me uh that's the information they're looking for from us right now i'm i'm fine with that that seems to make sense because if they start digging the foundation and that's part of the soil analysis and then we put some stipulation on there that if the soil analysis says you can't do it then you can't do it um is is that something that the board can do and if so is that something that the board would want to do uh because i think you know that argument to if you're going to bring that out there to begin digging um and then it says the soil's fine and then come back out again to dig um i understand your concern of not wanting to do the soil analysis to then have us then reject this project for a totally unrelated reason are we okay as a board with with that that proposal of doing the soil analysis at the same time as the digging well i think it's that assumes that we we approve it and we don't have any knowledge of the soil so we approve the we approve it so but in either case i think you know what i do think we should do is i i don't think we're ready for a decision tonight and i think we should move through and continue this until december if they want if they're ready to go at that point we can we can talk about it some more we can even discuss the soil issues at that point but i don't think that there's i'm not prepared and i don't think my other board members are prepared to approve this tonight and so let's have the applicant work with work with the town let's have the applicant um and the town talk to the applicant about what's the right process how it is normally done for soil samples and and runoff and come back in december and and consider it again that's and if they want to delay their construction until if they have them to delay their construction until april that's that is too bad but we're not ready to make that decision tonight and i'm not ready to make the decision to approve this at this point i don't think that sorry intro i i don't think mr maxfield is asking we're just trying to get some i but i don't know the answer to what mr axial is asking for right now and so let's work with the town on oh this is the chair if i if i may um i guess i just want to clarify my point i am not comfortable making the decision on this tonight either uh one of the things i'm i've heard from the public comment section was some of the butters might have objections to this project on its merits and that we might consider that might ultimately we might decide to reject this project and one of the things between now and that December meeting as they're working on those concerns is one of the things we want when they come back to us in december to be the soil analysis do we want that in december could we do we think we could make the decision without the soil analysis because if they come back to us in december we hear from the public and we decide you know what we're not approving this project we vote nay they don't get the project that could happen so we're going to require that they do the soil analysis ahead of time to then potentially have this project get um rejected for a different reason or are we okay with them getting everything else but the soil analysis and then we might at that time should we approve the the project put a condition on saying it's approved on the condition that the soil analysis says it's okay to build this but then let's say that soil analysis comes back and it says no then that project is is simply flat out rejected are we okay with with that scenario what do we need the analysis before the next meeting what's the board's feeling on that moraine and dav help us with it what's done typically i don't think it has to be done so i just want to clarify the soil the test pit and dav waskevitz please step in um the soil analysis is just one step in providing the drainage plan for this project so the drainage plan is actually dealing with stormwater management post construction for this project so meaning water coming off the roofs um and any new impervious so all impervious uh surface so um and then so that's taking a look at the surface water the soil analysis is looking at what is the condition of the soil so you take both that information and then create a drainage plan and a stormwater reporter summary um so it's not just isolated to a soil analysis it's it's um it's one of the steps to get you to a drainage plan and so the drainage plan so as you can see on your screen today or tonight is the contours i believe are existing contours is that correct chris yep we're in and we're not proposing to change those either the drain the water will drain as shown by the contours across the grass and towards the um not not forest but treed area okay so um so if there were any changes to the grading uh as a result of this uh of the two of the proposal here um he would uh be showing um the the proposed grading um in relation to the existing uh grading dave do you have anything to add yeah it's just gonna say um i would hope the contours would change a little bit because as it's shown it's going sloping downhill as we head to the west right um i can't read the numbers right now but so you would have some contouring happening around the structures to keep the water away from them so you would be building it up a little bit and deflecting around so there will be changed drainage patterns or whatever you want to call it um so that needs to be addressed you also don't want it going off of the property into the neighbor's yard because of these structures so you have to be sure that you set up your your landscaping or your contour so it is not doing that and you are what 25 feet 20 feet to the neighbor's property so you should be thinking about that and typically am i right typically the storm water drainage and the soil analysis informs placement and landscaping and grading of a property and you build off you use that information to to decide in many cases to decide how you place and and the the structures and then they inform your placement on the on the property it seems to me so i would really you know we're getting on to 930 we spent a good amount of time here um Tammy i saw your hand go up miss parks go ahead i just just quickly is there so is there like a soil test which is like you just take a core to see what's there or in order to do this kind of drainage thing you have to do a big excavation from my understanding it's a big excavation so they can find the um the water the water table and then also look at um the different layers of soil to understand the absorption rates it's not a small thing it's generally very expensive i i i think we should end this and i just want to see one last thing it's not related to this project based on this i don't think these can be built affordably in amherst massachusetts it's a very unfortunate um result of tonight um and it's going to reflect what what we're doing as a company and and how we advise homeowners in the future we also have a um thank you mr we invite members and neighbors to present to elderly homeowners in amherst about this is a possible affordable housing option and it's mr lee mr lee we're not but we're we're we're discussing what we're going to be doing in whether we want to continue it or not i'm i'm sorry that you're upset about it it's not it's not to me we let's let's move we're mr lee we're in the point now where we're going to have a discussion amongst the board members i'm the motion before the board members right now is to continue this to december on december 11th is that correct um hold on a second that's we were even talking about the time december 11th at 6 30 uh 10th december 10th at 6 30 um i think we continued another one at six um to be continued oh no no this yeah this would be so december 11th at 6 30 if there's no further discussion amongst the board members the motion is before us it's a roll call vote is there any further discussion amongst board members roll call i vote i miss parks uh you need a second there oh i'm sorry yes i do and i can i get a second okay mr greeny seconds the motion sorry thank you yeah i vote i roll call vote thank you mr maxfield hi mr miran question do we need a vote to end the discussion no we don't you don't have to have a previous question but we we had the discussion and nobody was no people were talking so we don't typically have a previous question vote did you want to say something more is that what it is no i okay all right and i shouldn't and mr green hi hi the motion is unanimous it carries we're continued until december okay i um wanted to ask um whether we can reopen a public hearing i'm not sure if we can but when you continued the public hearing for miss fey to march we didn't say at what time oh i think we did we didn't have a discussion with mr maxfield no it wasn't oh maybe oh okay a member of the public sent me an email alerting that we might not have said i thought we you know i thought we had a first discussion at six thirty okay all right that's good okay thank you sorry um first time we talked about it the motion was without a without a time but then mr langsdale pointed out that we weren't okay section so that one didn't actually go through yeah okay good good memories all right we're in the good then or in the clear okay okay miss omira can we just review when our next meetings are oh sure so well so december 10th is the next meeting let's see here hold on a second uh 10th we won't be unless you guys want to meet in december again so december 10th the following meeting would be december 24th i assume that folks wouldn't want to do that so then the following meeting would be january 14th is that is that right january 14th well you said the 10th i did say the 10th yeah oh maybe i was looking at the wrong month oh yeah it is the 14th it's the 14th what's the 14th thursday the january 14th yeah we continued something and we wrote i wrote january 10th yeah we continued something to january 10th that was minor about that was uh neil mendon since the yeah bucky and i had the night actually i wrote it down let me go through all my notes uh oh goodness um on a sunday sorry i know i know we're running late i said the ninth january 9th that's what i know what do you guys on a saturday do you guys mind meeting on a wednesday we know wait i'm looking in the wrong month again the ninth is uh sunday saturday saturday saturday oh brother all right okay so let's go uh that would be fun i i don't know what we're gonna i actually don't oh god i don't even know how we would even handle that um we can well there's one way we can handle it in the past we have i know that i have um oh i know how you can talk to pro forma meeting on that day i or one member of the board i am have done it in the past we convene the board we continue it on for it's for the simple purpose of continuing to the next day and we've done that a couple of times so we can do that again actually i know the formal way of handling that is re-advertising it so uh i'll confirm that with headquarters tomorrow but um but yeah we would re-advertise it in the daily hampshire hampshire gazette and we would um send out a butters notice to all the butters so sorry just to see you guys can that would be the 14th well do you want to meet on january 7th though because we will have missed december uh um 24th yeah do you want to do it a little sooner the seven we can't yeah do it on the 7th um sure january 7th works for me yeah i feel like there's a lot we've had one meeting and we'll have one meeting in december is all oh goodness okay well i'm really sorry about that i guess i'm really glad that we just discussed this so then um do you still need to continue uh jone are you satisfied with meetings for a little while i will send out um uh i have like a meeting list um for each year so i haven't done it yet for 2021 so i'll send that out when that's ready all right mr greeny mr greeny so i'm i'm curious is um since i have no experience with this how the board will decide on the set of conditions so uh the public hearing is closed well no we can't discuss that yeah it's okay it's it's it's bob greeny's first dba meeting as a sitting member and you're doing a great job okay um did you want to see if there's any members of the public yep the last the last item on the agenda is public comment um on matters that were not before the board tonight so there's any members of the public who wish to speak i don't see anybody i think they're all ready to go home as are we all right um do i have a motion to adjourn the meeting moved second second go call vote i vote unless there's any discussion i vote i miss parks hi miss omira hi mr maxfield hi mr greeny hi we're adjourned thank you all and everybody a long meeting


and recession is coming and a recession may be already here. That might mean that you might need to be able to adapt to a changing market, right? Our market has changed. Thank God we're still able to make money in these bear markets, but the point is, or the key is that in this cycle where it may be a little bit more difficult, your job isn't to say, okay, I made $10,000 last year, I'm gonna make $20,000 this year. Your job is simply to show up and wait for your setups and trade them.


One of the best known buildings in Washington, D.C. is the Department of Justice, spreading over an entire block in the busy heart of the capital. Here are the headquarters of the nation's crack law enforcement agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Today as every day, a morning mail brings thousands of reports from the FBI's 52 field offices, located in cities throughout the United States and its possessions. An envelope may hold information from a special agent in New Orleans that will help another agent's investigation in Machias, Maine. Another may hold the important confession of a communist agent. And each day, an average of 400 pieces of mail contain evidence for examination by the Bureau's famous crime laboratory. Matters of high priority are handled by the FBI's own radio system or by telephone. A vast teletype network links the Washington headquarters with field officers from Boston to San Diego, Seattle to Miami. In addition to the enforcement of a score of federal laws, the FBI has been directed by the President to maintain the internal security of the United States. The Bureau's work is made easier by the wholehearted cooperation of the American public. In complying with the President's request to report to the FBI knowledge of subversive activities, the loyal and alert citizen may help to protect the innocent as well as to reveal the guilty. Invaluable to the work of the FBI are files containing nearly 120 million sets of fingerprints. Fints voluntarily submitted by loyal law abiding citizens are kept in the non-criminal file. The FBI is first, a fact-finding agency, and second, a service agency. The facilities of the identification section and the crime laboratories are available to all law enforcement agencies. At its Washington headquarters, the Bureau maintains the most modern and completely equipped crime detection laboratory in the world. Here, no piece of evidence is too small for analysis. Nothing so seemingly commonplace that it is not put through the most exacting scientific examination. The discovery of one small new detail will often crack a baffling case. Whether evidence and criminal cases comes from the detective bureau of a large city or from the sheriff of a remote county, it is examined promptly, carefully, and with but one purpose, the swift detection and arrest of the criminal. Documents of criminals and subversive agents may frequently be traced to their source by comparison with handwriting. All laboratory specimens from nearly every known makeup typewriter. If the results of these tests do not produce convincing evidence, the solution of the case may turn on a second fact. Whether or not the suspect ever had in his possession paper of exactly the same weight and thickness as that of the question document. Even such meager evidence as a fiber from a strand of rope may lead investigators to the factory, to the hardware store where the rope was sold, and finally to the buyer. The FBI expert can determine the make of a shoe and frequently, depending on the way the shoe is worn, such facts as the occupation of the wearer. No method is more helpful in establishing innocence or guilt than chemical and spectrographic analysis. The presence of particles of dust on a suspect's clothes that are identical to dust found at the scene of a crime may support charges against him. Today, scientific methods induce evidence to convict criminals who a few years ago would have gone free. But bringing criminals to justice depends in the final analysis upon the ability and integrity of the law enforcement officer himself. To qualify as a special agent of the FBI, the candidate must be a college graduate in law or accounting. He must meet rigid physical requirements and have a character that is above reproach. From previous instruction, you gentlemen are aware of the civil rights of the individual citizen. As special agents of the FBI, you will be obligated to enforce the laws respecting those rights. It will be your responsibility to make civil rights a reality within the realm of federal authority. Strong sound bodies and a working knowledge of judo are necessary to meet the emergencies which often confront a G-man. Every agent must be prepared and qualified to out-shoot the most desperate criminal. Only does each new special agent undergo months of intensive training at the FBI academy. But as long as he remains in the service, he must return for retraining every 18 months. Because the Federal Bureau of Investigation is called upon to solve almost every type of crime, the special agents must be as qualified to investigate a homicide as to track down kidnappers and enemy agents. Upon the shoulders of John Edgar Hoover, director of the FBI since 1924, rest heavy responsibilities. Not only must he direct the Bureau's offensive against subversive agents, but he must also wage a relentless war against the common criminals, who as much as any saboteur undermine the security of the nation. Besides its many investigative functions, the FBI serves as a clearing house for U.S. crime statistics. Every 18 seconds, a serious crime is committed by someone, somewhere in the United States. On an average, there is an act of homicide every 45 minutes. Every minute and a half, there is a burglary. Every 31 seconds, someone commits an act of larceny. And reflecting the prevalence of lawlessness among the young, two birds of those arrested in their teens and early 20s are first offenders. Today with the FBI sees special agents and employees assigned to more than 100,000 investigative matters. In a city in the northwest, a payroll messenger from a department store withdraws the weekly payroll from a nearby bank to identify the holdup man. But police held several suspects answering the general description. To the FBI laboratory in Washington, police air mailed all available evidence with the request that it be given immediate examination. In the struggle, the messenger had torn hairs and flesh from the scalp of his assailant. Strands of hair from each suspect were also mailed to Washington. On the victim's coat was a bloodstain. Police were not sure whether it came from the victim or the assailant. In the serology section, technicians start immediately to study the bloodstains. Agultination tests show two different types of blood, type O and type B. Since the messenger is known to have type O blood, the FBI notifies police that the criminal is type B. This information clears all but two suspects. In the hair and fibers section of the FBI laboratory, other tests are being made. Clarison showed that the strand of hair from the assailant's scalp is exactly the same as the hair of one suspect being held by police. Hunted with the FBI laboratory reports, type B blood and identical hair, the criminal quickly confessed. In a southern city, after an 11-year-old girl is killed in a hit-and-run accident, the police gather significant evidence. The impact of the car hitting the victim had loosened much caked under the fender. When questioned by police, one suspect gives a plausible alibi. He has not been anywhere near the scene of the accident. But in the FBI laboratory, the prompt and careful collection of evidence begins to tell another story. After repeated comparisons, police are notified that the soil picked up at the spot where the girl was hit has almost the same mineral content as samples taken from the suspect's car. When the victim was struck, surface paint from the fender was smeared on her dress. Comparison shows the paint to be identical to that used by the manufacturer of the suspect's sedan. The paint taken by police from the suspect's car provides even more convincing evidence. The suspect is arrested by the local police and charged with manslaughter. Confronted with the FBI laboratory reports, the defendant finally admits his guilt. A synthesis of many cases demonstrating the cooperation between the local police and the FBI comes from the Seacoast region of New Hampshire. Near Fort Smith, New Hampshire, a group of bank robbers kidnap a teller or a hostage. Guards of FBI agents comb the countryside for any stray bits of information that may help them in the case. A farmer who had seen some men around an abandoned shack gives the G-man their first leave. The entire area is carefully searched for evidence. On a barbed wire fence 500 yards from the shack, agents find a piece of cloth torn from what could be a woman's dress or a man's necktie. This, along with other evidence, is sent to the Washington laboratory. The imprint of the tire markings gives some information. The automobile that had been at the shack was a 1950 model of medium to heavy weight. Other country FBI men visit textile mills looking for the manufacturer of the distinctive fabric. In both Massachusetts and North Carolina, agents find factories whose looms produce the identical pattern. At each mill, the manufacturers supply the names of wholesalers and jobbers who had purchased the finished cloth. In Washington, the FBI laboratory is able to report that the cloth in question came from the Massachusetts mill. Because the largest purchaser of the pattern had been a Boston necktie manufacturer, FBI agents visit retail outlets throughout New England. Painstaking and thorough investigation eventually pays off. A clerk recalls a customer who recently purchased a large number of ties. One was a duplicate of the pattern. Shown photographs of known bank robbers, the clerk identifies his customer. With this new and valuable information, the FBI locates a man answering the description of their suspect, living quietly in an apartment house in Portland, Maine, that beds on his auto tires match the tire prints found near the shack. For positive identification can be made, agents must confront the suspect, but he will have no opportunity to warn his confederates the agents proceed cautiously. In the apprehension of a dangerous criminal, the FBI special agent may encounter situations beyond his training or experience. He must then rely upon his courage and resourcefulness. It's Siebel Folsom, alias Frank Hampton. He and his confederates are now serving long terms in a federal penitentiary. Second people can well be proud of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And every citizen can profit by Director Hoover's repeated warnings, says Director Hoover. We cherish our American institutions and our heritage of freedom, but today our way of life is under attack by two dangerous enemies, the criminal hordes who live by violence and lawlessness, and the subversive hordes who seek to destroy all that is free and all that is sacred.


Hi, welcome to the Birds of a Feather discussing user groups at CubeCon in Detroit. I'm Steve Wong. I'm an organizer of Kubernetes Meetup groups in Los Angeles, and I also host another online Kubernetes-related user group. I work for VMware. The goal here is to brainstorm ideas on how we might come out of the pandemic with a strong support system that allows users to make friends, share experiences and best practices while providing feedback to projects and vendors. This is a Birds of a Feather session and I don't know some of you might already be familiar with the concept, but these are a little different than a typical presentation session. I'll just go down a quick summary down the middle. The purpose here is to have a discussion, not to transfer knowledge. The expert here is by no means me. It's you, the audience. Who asked the questions? I'll propose a few to get discussion started and we'll move on from there. The audience role here is to share opinions, experience and feedback. If you'd like, come on up for a more intimate setting and we'll be all talking to one another. I see my role as just facilitating discussion and keeping this on track. The Kubernetes community already supports user groups in some factor and these are found on the Kubernetes community calendar. Most of these groups you see here, it's a busy calendar. Most of them are actually very much dev focused along SIG boundaries, working group boundaries. Theoretically, users are perfectly welcome to join in, but if you were to join in, you'd find they're often very deep dives on specific internal details of the Kubernetes project. If you're an experienced user, you might be able to figure out where you go through the Conway's law of how these are set up, but there's just a handful of them that are divided up as either a labeled user group or a topic that is focused on a particular use case of Kubernetes. The CNCF also has some use case aligned groups like the IoT Edge working group that recently moved over from the Kubernetes upper organization and there is a telecom user group I'm aware of. I think there's one or two more. The CNCF has the portal for labeled end user community. I went and looked at that just this morning and it's geared towards companies that would become sponsors of the CNCF with annual participation programs. You can learn more about it there. It didn't really have direct links to actual operating user groups if you felt you wanted to join one. The reasons I think people join these are not so much to listen to presentations like you find at KubeCon, but also in the sense of local physical meetup groups. It's a place where people engage and make friends, maybe even look for jobs with one another or advertise postings in their local community. That's what it's about. I'll just skip through this. This is another slide I found on the CNCF portal. Kubernetes meetup groups. Pre-COVID, these were very healthy. In Los Angeles, where I come from, the attendance at the monthly Kubernetes meetup group actually reached 250 people, was deemed unmanageably large, and we forked into two groups, east and west side, and each of the two eventually was drawing up to 200 people per month. They died completely during COVID. We haven't had one since. I've been trying to bring one back, but had difficulty recruiting a sponsor to supply a venue. In LA, they used to be held occasionally at Disney, for example, or at AT&T's Direct TV division, which had a big studio space with a lot of capacity. I am aware of some user groups that actually thrived through COVID. The one in Atlanta, the one in London, actually grew membership throughout the pandemic. In fact, I joined those groups myself because somehow they got an interesting pipeline of speakers, but I think we'd like to bring back the formerly thriving physical meetup groups that existed in cities around the world. We want to move on now to the questions. The first one will be, how can we foster and improve local physical meetings where users have a great learning and sharing experience? I'm going to come down off the stage and let's just get together and share some ideas. How about if we just do a few of us? I'll ask. Okay. Yeah. I'm Josh Berkus, Kubernetes contributor, work for Red Hat. I started and theoretically still run the Portland, Oregon Kubernetes user group. What I think theoretically is we've been on hiatus since the start of COVID. Well, maybe we should postpone it. Sure. I'm Zach. I work at VMware building Kubernetes platforms. I actually haven't participated with Kubernetes user groups, but I was part of an organization in college that was all summarized as like a Linux style user group. And I really enjoyed that and haven't quite found the same thing since then. I'm based in San Diego. So my name is Alexis. I work as a developer advocate for Elastic. Before that I was a DevOps engineer and I would say that my introduction into Kubernetes was when I was in DevOps. But since being a developer advocate, I joined a Kubernetes user group in Dallas, Texas. And we haven't met a lot this year, but I'm hoping that that changes. Hi. My name is Rin. I use they them pronouns. I'm from Oakland, California, where I work for Honeycomb, which is observability tooling. I run the open telemetry meetup group right now, which is a fully virtual meetup group, but just came off organizing our essentially second community day type gathering for the open telemetry community, which was a very big lift. So experience doing an in-person thing now, interest in conversations with developer advocates from all over about possibly doing local meetups. But how do we do that? What does that look like really interested in learning from y'all's path into Kubernetes community since y'all are at a little bit later stage and hearing what people are doing? Also, I was one of the founders of women who code on a sort of more personal level. I'm just wondering with your attempts to resurrect the Portland group that what did it look like before what changed and what are the troubles you're having? And do you have any ideas for how you might explore getting it back to where it was? Yeah, well, I'm going to have a question to pass over, right? Because so what happened was it was a fairly strong in-person meetup group with 30, 70 attendees, depending on the meeting. But we rotationally hosted by various businesses in the Portland in downtown Portland area. And even though now we probably have enough members who would be willing to do an in-person meetup, which wasn't true really until recently, no one will host it. So then I would be facing trying to actually rent a venue for hosting, which really ups the budget on a per meetup basis. And we did actually for a while do online stuff at the beginning in 2020, but audiences kind of fell away quickly. I did talk to some places that have had much more successful online meetups, like the folks over in Amsterdam, for example. But the amount of effort they put in their online meetups was way more than I could actually have time for. So one of the things I was interested in is what things have you found to actually have engagement and interactivity in an online meetup? I can talk a little about this. I think we're still working out our quirks. We've only been meeting once a month for a few months now. So one thing I try to do is I program these very specifically to have one person doing hands-on coding and one person doing who has already implemented open telemetry in the particular language. So each meetup is people who are interested in a particular language. So right now we're mostly focused on kubernetes.net because that's where I've had people come out and say, hey, we're implementing open telemetry. And it's almost like those two meetup tracks are a separate community within the meetup. So I think being very specialized helps, I think, not offering formal talks. Like I said, it's live coding with space for people to interject or to say, hey, actually, I don't understand this. Can you back up? As well as sort of a higher level, more functional discussion that captures people. What I would like to work on is having sort of a mandatory discussion segment where people pass the mic around and discuss. And we haven't quite gotten there yet. We're still getting there with the rhythm of the programming and with expectations. And also, people won't stay for more than an hour on an online meetup. So we already have a lot of programming for an hour.  So I haven't run any online meetups yet. So I've been in my position about three, four months. I've done in-person meetups. What I found out from my team was before during the pandemic, we were focusing on online. But as soon as we made that transition, we didn't necessarily do a good job about having that hybrid model. And so we weren't really getting a good turnout when it came to in-person. And what I've realized is that our pipeline that we have for meetups is getting that speaker that everybody is going to be interested in and sort of having a rinse-and-repeat cycle. But I haven't really heard that, hey, let's do a live coding. And I think that, yeah, I think that's something that I'll consider for the future meetups. Yeah. And I've been running an online user group. It's somewhat odd because Kubernetes a few years ago, when they split the cloud provider plug-ins out of tree, put in place a provision where each cloud provider could try to charter a user group. And they thought that every cloud provider, Amazon, Google would compose one and run one. And as it turned out, only the one I run, which is running Kubernetes on vSphere, got chartered and went into operation. It was okay pre-prandemic. I think at the peak, maybe we had a meeting with 45 people showing up. But interestingly enough, during the pandemic, attendance actually dropped. And I talked to people, and I think it was just this phenomenon called Zoom burnout, where people were spending eight hours of their work day on Zoom with their colleagues, depending on where you work. And the last thing they want is one more Zoom meeting. It just felt painful rather than something that duplicated that experience of close discussions. And an interesting aspect of that is that this same group that has been operating on Zoom, we held a physical meeting at KubeCon in Europe. And obviously not all the membership is even in Europe. But more people showed up to that physically at just an informal meeting we had in a restaurant than we'd been getting at the Zoom meeting. So I think there a signal to me was that there might be people who are missing close interaction with people coming out of this so that these might be even challenging times with Zooms because of that carryover Zoom burnout phenomenon. Right. I'm experiencing both those things as well. Lots of people showed up to the meeting here at KubeCon. People we never met, never were involved in the open telemetry community. And you know, we're having, besides the meetups, we're having an open discussion time in like, we'll have the program meetup on the first week and the open discussion on the third week. And very few people are showing up to open discussion. I feel like people maybe to be convinced to attend one more Zoom event, they needed to have a strong agenda and a strong, I could be wrong about that. And I'm really interested. It sounds like you're experiencing the same. So yeah, in my experience with in-person meetups is that if I didn't have a primary topic for the meetup that turnout would be non-existent. So one of the, like I said, one of the other problems, the other reason why I think we lost the online meetup audience, at least in Portland was, you know, both for Kubernetes and for the DevOps meetup where there's a lot of crossover between the two particular meetups. The, one of the main reasons for people attending was for hiring, right? Is either people were looking for jobs or people were looking to hire other people. It was a big part. But every meetup, we would start out with hiring announcements. And that didn't really port to the online format. We actually tried to get employers to participate and that just really did not work. And I think without, I think that was a really important part of the in-person experience. I totally agree on that hiring aspect because in LA, more times than not, the host of the venue was in a position where they were trying to hire. So they put recruiting tables at that event. They weren't necessarily an IT vendor at all. They just wanted to use the meetup as an opportunity to do hiring. And there's some of that where, you know, maybe the tech industry is at a downturn. And I can see where maybe those companies that would sponsor something physically wouldn't get the same value out of online because they'd see they'd already had an online recruiting presence anyway. I'll throw out a few things because I talked to people, I was trying to recruit people to this session downstairs. And some of them gave me some ideas, but were unable to be here. So Lisa Namphee at Cockroach Labs told me that she had successfully put on an online meetup recently in San Francisco and managed, it was only because she got some company willing to take on the COVID related obligations, you know, in California where I live, you have to register people, check VAX cards, and even potentially have a mechanism of tracking reporting afterward. And a lot of company legal departments will nix it currently. I'm hoping that goes away, but that's a big part, I think, of reluctance on the part of volunteers to host venues. But she said that once she got it, the attendance was just excellent and the participation was excellent. I also heard from somebody who had a return to physical meeting in Amsterdam and they weren't sure what to expect, declared it, and 450 people showed up. And it was so big that they couldn't possibly fit them and they just took over every bar and restaurant within a four block vicinity. But people just kind of missed that social interaction. So maybe we can aspire to sort of the world coming back if we just wait it out. Let me go back. I was going to say, even with us like waiting to like and hoping that the world will return to normal and that people would get that comfortability again, how do we measure success now? You know, I think that's one of the things that I sort of think about because it's already a little, yeah, it's already a little shaky to try and measure that success. But then, you know, yeah, how would we how do we get to that point even now? I had three questions. I don't even know if we'll get to them all. But the next one was going to be how we divide up because this is really about user groups. And we've got user groups like the meetup ones are typically just generic Kubernetes and awfully broad topic. Yet some of these zoom ones that are operating tend to be more focused on use case niches such as machine learning or I actually have a zoom on IoT edge. I know there are some on telecom, on financial, on retail. And a few of us here represent particular projects or products. And I'm wondering if what people's thoughts are on the best way to do these both, you know, maybe it would be best the physicals were wide open, because you could recruit speakers on a broad swath of topics. Maybe if you're going to continue to have zoom, more did niche things are better online because you collect from worldwide audience. But I'm open for thoughts. Well, this actually goes into I'm going to actually address two questions at one because he asked this question about measuring success. And so one of my difficulties with a lot of stuff like the online meetups and that sort of thing is that part of my goal in creating a meetup is to actually create a community, which yeah, to actually create a community of people who, you know, regularly dial into the meetup or regularly attend the physical meetup, you know, you know, welcome newcomers have some of their, you know, stuff that they own, that they do interact with each other, you know, in some social fashion, etc. And, you know, this is one of the reasons why a lot of these pursuing sort of worldwide meetups, you know, basically topical meetups, right? So you pick a topic and you're not particularly geographically that hasn't been that appealing because I haven't seen a way to sort of build that kind of community identity. I know people are trying. For example, we had here at this coupon, the data and Kubernetes community. And I know that they're trying, but I also know that they're also finding it really hard. Yeah, we have tried to build up a Slack channel around the meetups. And it's, it's hard. Like, we have to do a lot of cultivating of that channel. And like trying like, Oh, yeah, here's a question for this week, trying to bring you together like a lot of basic grooming. And I don't know, honestly, in the end, how strong the urge for all of those folks to connect is. I think that is why we're trying to narrow the use case for the online ones. For the offline ones, to be perfectly honest, I know that before the pandemic, there were cloud native meetups in particular cities. And I would really love to team up with a group that is doing a cloud native meetup in a few large cities, preferably ones where we already have the presence of a developer advocate or a company that's really involved in open telemetry and say, Hey, we'd like to provide quarterly meetups for you on this topic or whatever and not try to run my own meetup exclusively on open telemetry because I just think it's still too small of a topic. I think that's a really interesting model. Because I feel like I'm based in San Diego and I don't know that I would go to an open telemetry meetup weekly or even monthly in San Diego, but I might show up to something quarterly and in the other 12 weeks of the quarter, if there were other kind of niche topics, I wouldn't show up every week, but I would pick and choose the ones that were interesting to me. And instead of having that balance of broad, like over the span of the community, it's kind of broad, but on any given week, you bring together people to talk about a specific topic. I think that helps with sort of what Josh was saying about community, like you see sort of the same people coming and it may not be the same people every single week, but you get different subsets of the people each week to have a focused conversation about something. And for me, that's more interesting than just kind of like general, like, oh, let's get together and talk about cloud native. That's too big to get excited. Anyone who wants to talk about cloud native generally is probably doing something. Yeah, one thing, this was Lisa's idea too. She dropped this Easter egg on me when she couldn't be here, but she said to make sure to remind people running local meetup groups that there's a big payoff in cross promoting. If you're in a big area that is running meetups on specialized topic as well as general, nobody ever turns down, in her experience or mine, the opportunity to send out the meeting notice to their mailing list. And it's just like your situation where you might subscribe to only one meetup group, but not even be aware there's two or three others. And the cross promotion is sort of a win-win for any group organizer and brings the broader geo community together more often. Now, I guess we'll have to delegate this out. But my third question that I put on, and I'm open to any other people putting questions on the table, was what should we ask the CNCF to do to support these groups operating now? Or maybe even perspective? Yeah, so I don't have an example of this from the, say, technology community. But for another community I'm involved in, you know, there's like a local meetup group in San Diego and, you know, in a typical event we get, I don't know, five to ten people from that community. And it's a topic of sort of broader interest. And so one of the sort of key notable people in the broader community did a, I'll call it like a mini road show where they said they'll attend the meetup in this city on this week and the meetup in this other city on another week and, you know, planned a, you know, like a couple of months long trip around. And we saw, I mean, somewhere between 50 and 100 people show up just because this author was in town and we all came out. And in the couple of weeks following that we saw much higher attendance. And it sort of trailed off, but we ended up sort of higher than we were before at a study state. And so about a year later the same thing happened. And again, it sort of like helps to kind of reinvigorate the community. And so getting back to this topic, having CNCF or specific projects help to bring notable people that everybody wants to hear from to some of these larger, you know, geographic areas and sort of have a special guest at a meetup to sort of give it in person talk about a book they wrote or a podcast they run or some sort of community they're involved in. I think that could get people excited and out who might not show up otherwise and have them meet people in the community and want to come back next time. Yeah, this has been tricky. I feel like we do have a lot of support within our project because we are the only meetup group happening for the project. And I'm working on it with two or three people. So while it can be stressful, like no sense of burnout, at the same time, we don't. And this is a project wide problem and not a problem specific to open telemetry meetups. We don't understand what resources are there from the CNCF and how to access them. And my efforts to try to reach out have gone completely nowhere, either through service desk or through going into different Slack channels for meetup organizing the thing. Hey, is anyone interested in teaming up? We've got this great virtual meetup and content available. And I see some of you are having virtual meetups, but I don't know how to connect with those people. And I've even tried sending them individual messages on meetup.com and stuff. And it's just all crickets. And it would be great if there was someone at the CNCF who could actually connect us with some of these groups and some of these resources, like this site that they supposedly have for meetup organizers. Okay, I'll talk to you a bit afterward, but I'll throw out the name Taylor and give you his link. Obviously something isn't working as well as it could, but it isn't that there's total crickets there. Yeah, I mean, this doesn't have anything with cross-pollination. Currently, statutorily, the support that the CNCF have is the Bevy platform. And that's the only current official support for meetups. There was some money, but that was really focused on in-person meetups. And they haven't figured out how that relates to other kinds. That has nothing to do with doing cross-pollination. That's people. And I think part of the reason why you're getting crickets, actually, is that so many of the meetup organizers currently are still, you know, my in-person meetup is still on hiatus. So, Josh, I hate to put you on the spot, but I'll do it anyway. So maybe I don't hate it so much, but I know that you're one of the organizers of the scale conference and it got aligned with, you know, some sort of Kubernetes, what do they call it, community days or something. It isn't a meetup per se, but it is a physical conference. Can you maybe tell us a little bit about what's involved there? Well, so one of the things is they have the whole KCD program, which is smaller regional conferences that are getting put on. And for regionally-based meetups, it makes sense to link that up, but we're having the weird thing right now, right, is obviously the LA meetup has been on hiatus for however long. And so also one of the other problems that we had with the CNCF that the meetups went through is COVID hit right when we were moving off of meetup.com and Antebevi, because meetup.com had been bought by the workspace company and had always honestly been mismanaged, but the mismanagement had gotten much worse. But a lot of these KCDs are going forward and they may be, for a lot of the regional meetups, a really good way to actually revive this, right? So like when we have KCDLA, part of it should be talking about, hey, so for those of you who are local, let's talk about the meetup and that could work for regional meetups. It could also work for topical meetups because there are topical events, right? Like for example, we had a bunch of colos here. How much promotion of topical meetups was there at any of those colos? When it comes to the virtual meetup groups that you all have been having, have you only been targeting sort of like the United States or have you been targeting outside of the United States and has your approach changed based on what region or sort of like what country that you're like looking into to pull for audience? Yeah. I can't answer this. We're still relatively small. We have been targeting doing the main live meetup in a time convenient for most US and EU people. It falls at six o'clock EU, 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. East Coast, that whole time zone. We are currently working with meetup hosts in Europe and Australia who are hosting the like unprogrammed conversations. So there's three of those, which is one reason our attendance is low, frankly, because we're splitting the audience across three. And the hope is to get the programmed meetups online for, with those hosts, so they, so people can rewatch the programming but not, and it's just we don't have enough organizers to have programmed meetups in three different time zones. So that's how we're approaching it at the moment. In the past when I've worked at Mozilla and some other places, I have had to deal with sort of figuring out how to work cross-culturally. For example, there the Indian community is really like a lot of contributors to Mozilla live in India. And so it's been a process of like enabling people differently based on where they're based and doing a lot of listening. And ideally you have an employee of your company who is aware of the culture and can help you with some connections and introductions. That'd be my strongest advice is get somebody engaged who understands that culture and can make some introductions for you. So I have been running online Zoom meetups that straddle really the, I think the membership is very much geo-distributed. I can tell you more things not to do than things to do. One of these groups we tried having multiple times. We only tried two, not three that you alluded to. But it turned out to be somewhat of a problem because people couldn't remember. We declared that every two weeks we'd flip and we had one that was geared towards North America, one for Asia, China and polar opposite times really. But people ended up showing up on the Zoom. If you own the Zoom group ownership credentials, you'd see these things like three people joined the Zoom and they're at the wrong time zone one. And I always thought it was perfectly well marked, but it becomes an issue trying to do the logistics. Then speakers see that you have two slots. Sometimes the speaker would show up at the wrong time. Or the speakers, when they saw two were available, you had a tough time getting fills in the off one. In retrospect, we ended up killing one and going back to a single occurrence at always at the same time. But even that, the lingering people who added in their calendar lasted for over a year. And shifting your meeting time around, in my experience, is problematic. That people just want to get in that pattern. And they're like many of them are working at a place that have recurring meetings. So it dropped into that particular slot on the calendar for them. And they can defend that if they're interested in the topic. But if it moves around, it's much tougher to remember and join. And it's much tougher to not have conflicts come in your workspace if it varies from one cycle to the other. Now, theoretically, if you go look at the charter details that are in the Kubernetes project too, you are not supposed to unilaterally declare one as, say, the group chair or lead. You're supposed to put it out to a membership vote. Now, when you pick a new time, that's tough because maybe only the people who find the current time convenient are there to vote. So I've always put the voting out on the Slack channel where it's a little more asynchronous. But actually having group membership pick the time in the day is probably a really good idea. But it's going to be a compromise. So maybe you do that, some of those online polls, let you have rankings and things that maybe can allow you for a compromise of people who have a second, third, and first choice. Okay, I think we're at or past time anyway. So thank everybody for coming. I thought it was a good conversation even though we experienced the typical issue of late in the day slot on the last day. And thanks again. Thank you for your time.