Podcast was roundtable round 1 0 7. I don't think I have a title for this Dave. Did I name this show? I was trying to find it. I might know yeah Dave Staying more co-hosts not doing his job, but it's okay at all. He doesn't get paid a lot But hey today, we're talking about Finding an audience when your podcast is new you just started you've got a great show And we're gonna work on that premise. We're gonna work off that premise We're gonna say that you've got the show dialed in contents awesome Presentations good, you know because as SP wrote to me in the pre-show We were talking a little bit about this and he said you know first thing he would do is make sure Before you start pushing it out there and letting people know I've got a new show you want to hear it should be good So when they come they stay and they don't get bad content or really bad presentation or something So take a few episodes to dial that in if that's something you need to do We're gonna assume your show is amazing and that when people come there They're gonna subscribe you're brand new you don't have an audience Maybe you do we'll talk about that But this one is something that people always want to know about like how do I get more people to my podcast So that's what we're gonna talk about. We got three new round tailpers. That's really cool But Dave welcome to the show co-host Dave Jackson Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting calm I can't wait to hear what the other people have to say I'm gonna listen a little bit and then chime in I think He's gonna ask amazing deep thoughtful questions To get out the best tips possible but starting all the way on the in and welcome to the round table Thanks so much for having me What is your podcast? My podcast is the vo boss podcast and it is uh specific to my industry of voiceover And the boss stands for business owners strategies and success. So it's concentrated on business and marketing for a creative Uh type of industry for voiceover artists. So very very niche market that we niche. That's the way to go and we know you're not Now let me know the Topic of your show it makes sense when you said you weren't in your studio. So I imagine are you do have a vocal booth? I do. I do. It's actually right beside me. I do and and I use IP DTL, which is ISDN technology to record it. So do you find that to be reliable? I love it because I can have all of my guests sounding like they're all in my studio. Okay And yeah, I use it for my yeah, I use it for my uh voiceover Actually career as well to connect up with studios Very cool. Yeah, I tried that when it first came out. I had some issues But I definitely have to so un-recommended it recently. Okay, so I'm gonna look at that again. Yeah, yeah, all right Hey, thanks next to an virtually of course clay. Welcome to your first round table Hey, thanks. Uh, yeah, I'm clay gross chief executive fish dirt of the fish dirt podcast a show That's always interesting usually funny and mostly true and we talk about fish fishing and eating fish You do and I've been podcasting. Well The small white lies are about the size of the fish, right? Like I caught this fish and it was uh Yeah, if everyone knows you're lying, it's not a lie. Oh, there you go So stop I'm gonna write that down Hey, and uh another new round table or I love this we got we're spreading it out jonathan. Welcome to the round table Hey, thanks. Yeah, my name is jonathan messenger. I make a serialized sci-fi podcast for kids Called the alien adventures of fin caspian. No way. I know I didn't recognize you This happens Oh, thank you. Thank you And actually this is a great topic for me because I just launched a brand new show a few weeks ago Called uh pants on fire. It's a game show for kids And uh, and we're trying to build that audience right now. So Yeah, hey jonathan, do me a favor. Just tap on your microphone. I just want to make sure you're using Yeah, you think you're using your internal microphone. You might want to switch your microphone if you have that other one Or maybe it's just a prop. I don't know it looks pretty Like give it a shot. I think there's a high all buried under there. Yeah, okay. Let me dig it up for you Yeah, for sure. But let's let's uh while he's doing that. We will we will dig in. I guess the best place to start I mean, well gosh jonathan has a brand new show, but he has an existing show. So I guess that's related. I am curious uh if when you started you were starting from zero meaning You had no prior sort of online Audience no pre-established audience to promote the podcast too. Is that anyone here on the round table? No one everyone had an audience My show when my show it was the first it was brand new It was brand new the first the first show the kids the fincaspian Yeah, that was uh starting from scratch. Okay, so you didn't like do a blog before you weren't known online I had like a small career as a failing fiction writer. Nice Uh, so maybe like five people knew who I was At that point, but uh, but yeah, it was pretty much starting from scratch Cool. So what made you then why did you decide a podcast was the way to go? Well, because I really wanted it to be interactive and I felt like if I Did it as a podcast that I could get kids week after week kind of hopefully Writing in and participating in the show somehow in a way that publishing doesn't allow you to do Um, and so that was really why I went that route didn't work It did it's been super fun. They get a show, uh kids Send me emails all the time about things they like and don't like about the show, which is cool So very interesting audience with with kids and I don't know do these kids the majority have are they Subscribers or their parents subscribe for them or how does that work? Most of them not I would say probably 95 percent Are parents subscribing? So a lot of the emails I get from kids are from their parents emails dictated emails Uh, but occasionally I do get emails from like maybe 10 or 11 year olds who have their own devices So you so you're you're really trying to get Your new audience the people you need to get in touch are the parents that then give it to the kids, right? Right that who you're marketing to is parents. Yeah, absolutely reaching out to parents So what did you do to find the audience in the beginning when you had no when you were brand new? No one knew you existed Yeah, so I actually went a very traditional PR route where I wrote up a press release. I wrote up a press release. So basically I identified like three different Types of outlets that might be interested in my show. So one would be parenting blogs and parenting magazines one I'm in Chicago, so uh, Chicago media to let them know and then um, the third one was like sort of Blogs that cover sci-fi and that sort of thing. Did uh, sorry interrupt By the way, the round table is all about an eruption So any of you have a thought at any time you want to ask me just jump in and ask But did the local media thing did that work? It did that was actually the most successful of all. How what year was this? 2016 okay, so podcasting a little bit more known.  In theory, a nobody right and local media picks up a podcast, which they're like, okay What's his podcast? Well, how did how did that happen? What was the what? Well, so I think I think I you know was Hopefully I wrote a good press release that kind of pitched me as a Chicago guy making the show Um, I sent it to specifically to writers who I'd seen And editors who work on the kind of like family coverage, you know So parenting stuff things to do with your kids people who wrote that kind of a thing I sent it to them and One of those writers Had an eight-year-old kid And listened to it with her kid and her kid really liked it. And so I just was I think I was very lucky, but That was in the Chicago Tribune And that is what that sort of really helped the show gain a lot of momentum Were you looking at your numbers at that point? I was and Did you see a spot? Yeah, because new podcast is what we do We're looking at numbers. Did you did you notice a difference in the numbers once it sort of came out in the media? Yeah, I think the numbers did go up, but So, you know, I think that I'm sort of a different case than a lot of folks, but So the numbers definitely went up But what was good about it was that there are always Parenting blogs who are always putting together top 10 podcasts to listen with your kids Um lists and so getting that bit of press Allowed me when people were googling Podcasts for kids started to show up a little bit more. I started to show up more on those lists And that was very very helpful for me very cool, so For the other two you had an audience a pre-existing audience somewhere And what was your audience when you launched your podcast? What year was it? Okay, so actually we're a little less than a year.  I am a new podcast and but I've had an audience In my in my industry Since about 2009 I started to people kind of know who I am online So I've I built up an audience through another kind of area of my company And they know me from there. So I started to Uh advertise the podcast to that audience to gain listenership and it's Uh, I forgot my question, but You why did you go you had an audience why a podcast at that point? Well, okay, so for my particular audience for creatives about the last thing they ever think about is the topic that I'm speaking of Which is business and marketing and so it's it's so important anyways for their for their success in their career That it was something that I wanted to draw attention to give content To the audience so then I could draw in I could draw in a listenership And then also, you know, make some revenue off of it So it was kind of a a long-term plan to distribute content in a in a medium that I do every day I mean, I'm on a microphone every day Working voice over so podcasting is simply it's like a real natural thing to get into and believe it or not there weren't a ton of voiceover podcasts, you know, if I could count on one hand how many there are out there that are really good There weren't so I wanted to put one together on a topic that was very much necessary that people don't necessarily consider to spend Money on so that I could draw them in to then offer them products. What um What are you doing to find the audience? Well, you know social media, of course and um, you know, we we Obviously a weekly podcast so I have um, whenever there's a podcast that's launched. I'm having like every other day. There's a social media Graphic advertisement that goes out to say hey, you know a new episode We're doing it. I'm doing it in as many groups that will allow me to do that I mean and one thing that's good about the podcast is it's free to listen to so people don't think I'm advertising So I can put it in multiple groups to gain listenership that way Totally, what do you guys think of social media? I mean it for promo for a podcast It's a fast-moving river and people are generally when they see it. They're not I would say most people aren't Prepared to listen to a podcast, right? Especially if there's not five minutes. It it's an investment So it kind of goes by I doubt a lot of I I don't think social drives a lot of actual listening But it does drive awareness. Maybe they they say oh, I do want to go look for that podcast I don't know. What do you guys think clay? Do you use social media for your podcasts? And what do you think it does for you? I do I do and so before I launched my podcast I had already built a name in the fishing industry as a writer And I failed at getting a book deal So which is why I launched the podcast because easier than writing am I trying to grow an audience? I already had about 10,000 people on facebook following the fish nerds before the podcast even was born And social media does barely a thing For getting new listeners as far as I can tell it doesn't it doesn't seem to matter how much money I throw it at it I can't figure out a strategy to get numbers. Well, first of all fishing people Don't understand they do but they don't understand new technology. They're they're Ah, you got noise in your ear holes. I'm not sure what kind of lore do you use to catch that podcast? So it doesn't always work out the way one would hope and so fishing got extra hard and I and so So I post a lot on social media. I love facebook on twitter. I struggle with and instagram But basically they like short hits and I think very slowly things grew And then once my facebook page crossed a 10,000 mark I became invisible again So you would put a post up and nobody would see it and so I had to start a facebook group And that way my my listeners actually had a place to go and interact and that group has been great But the facebook page Is the group do you think the group's helping drive listens or the group's just great for interaction but not the podcast both things Both things the group is contrived of contract can has some listeners in it And what I do is I pull content from there. They share a fishy news story I'll use them. I'll say their name and I'll post that story in that conversation thread So those who are just talking go. Oh, he said my name and they'll listen and people love hearing their names Uh, that's uh, you know, so one listener at a time is how we grow the show. That's right really slowly Uh, Dave What's your magic tip when you're starting? What's the what's the one thing you can be doing when you start out Yeah, Dave amazing show. What's that one thing? What's the first thing to do? How's that? I mean for for getting people to find the heck find your podcast to find you Yeah, to find you. I mean be in itunes or apple podcast. Sorry. Yeah, I would say if you get any kind of Content from anybody whether it's twitter facebook So if somebody reaches out to you the first question you should be what should be where did you find me? And then go to where that person is and if you see another person go, where did you find me and he goes? Oh, I heard about you from so-and-so I forget who it was. I was listening to a podcast And he would ask people where did you find me and a lot of times it was like well So-and-so told me about it and he would go find so-and-so and say thank you so much We're telling so-and-so about my show who told you about it And he would literally just had this daisy chain of finding one person because most of the time it was word of mouth But what do you do with that information? Okay, so what you chase down five people But what do you what do you do? Well, how do you turn that into a success to keep keep it up, right? I think I On my email list when you sign up to me email list. There's a voluntary question. The only thing I ask you besides your name is Where did you hear about the show and so it if anything? And almost everyone fills it out and it's fascinating because I think google YouTube I mean it's fascinating where it comes from that said It's I haven't applied it to anything. It's just sort of information. I'm gathering I guess for me it would be if I see, you know, if I get 10 people that reply back And eight of them said twitter And two of them said facebook and I'm doing linkedin and instagram and my space All these other you know, it's back. Yeah, I gotta figure out where my people are And then go, you know, it's like just because there's only 24 hours in a day If the majority are on twitter, I'm going to go there and then it's just a matter of Ray, you're really good at getting conversations going on on twitter And that's what I think where you when you go from outside the the podcast topic to hey It's still kind of podcasting in your case But it's it's an actual conversation which I could never do it 144 characters. I just cannot get to the point I love it. I love it because it makes people get to the point, but conversations is probably my is one of my big tips because Or or answering people like youtube drives more people to my podcasting than I even expected It's not really there. It's not that's not the function of it, but people fill in all the time. They say youtube and um For me, I notice at least when it's youtube He can't really see this on podcasts because you don't get an alert when someone subscribes. Unfortunately youtube I wish podcasting was a little more like youtube, but when someone subscribes you on youtube you can get that alert and so When I answer it's a it's amazing because I'll go into the comments I'll start answering comments and like I'll start to see I'll answer someone's comment that see that name and then they'll subscribe Like just having just answering one comment, you know that interaction So at least that way I know the interaction does have some effect But those conversations have a huge effect and you never have to say subscribe to my show Once you start having a conversation with someone They'll look more into they'll look into you right and you should have your podcast on your twitter profile Right, whatever that important link is you should have it on your profiles everywhere on social so that anytime someone Goes to look up who the heck you are They'll see oh you have a show and they might dig deeper So that's a great way to build again one at a time I can tell you what go ahead jonathan No, no go ahead good Well, I can tell you one thing that did work For a brand new podcaster I got this today and it worked because norma few email me and it's a blanket email that you sent to 400 other people Not only am I going to delete it? I'm probably going to mark you a spam And so I got this one today from dan isaac. It says well, this is a bit odd My name is dan isaac and I am hosting the upcoming fighting fat podcast. We launch on april 4th Taking advice from the school of podcasting. So now I know where he came from I decided to reach out to you another podcaster about losing weight and being healthy Let me introduce myself and he goes down. He says after learning I was prediabetic And uh, but basically he says I am now down over 130 pounds Okay, now this guy's got a cool story and I look at that and go Oh, that guy could bring value to my podcast. That's really all I'm looking for is like, how are you going to bring value? And he's then he throws in I was also the morning show host in my 20s for five years So he's a good talker And I just want to reach out and say he didn't didn't he just just wanted to say hi We're getting ready to launch. Here's my website and then at the very end He goes by the way having a third nipple would be awesome because somewhere in one of my podcasts I said eating something and blah blah blah and you'll grow a third nipple. So he proved he listened And so I said dude, you lost 130 pounds. I would love to have you on my show So he reached out to somebody else in his his genre But he also said here's what I can bring to the table and so many people I had somebody this week that reached out to the school of podcasting and the guest was a real estate person And I'm like that has nothing to do with podcasting So in this case dan proved that he did the research He knows he's a good fit. He explained why he was a good fit and it was a no brainer for him. I'm like, hey This is a great fit.  That's the key there, right? Yeah, you know, you make a great Great point. One of the one of the big growth areas that we've always had and I did a presentation at podcast Min Atlantic on this is going on other podcasts Is a great way to reach other listeners because people who don't listen to podcasts It's hard to bring them in so go on there's and I always recommend get out of your niche a little bit Because people have multiple tastes You know, for example, I'm about to invite the casual birder podcast to come on the fishners podcast just to Reach her audience because fishing and birds have everything in common with each other and I'll reach her audience She'll reach mine and that crossover equals one or two more listeners every time you do it And it really adds up over time I've been on dozens of other podcasts and whenever I see a new podcast come out that I can connect with I invite them on my show And try to get them Some of our audience because our audience is thirsty for other good podcasts And I'm hoping that other podcast audiences are thirsty for some fish We'll go back to that because clay actually brings up a good point that new podcast listeners are much harder to reach People aren't listening to podcasts, but we really That we need that we need those people as an industry, right? If we just keep going out to the existing people, we don't grow the number of podcasts grows The listeners don't grow In order to succeed we're now like what it's uh Edison report just came out and we're at a quarter What is it 73 million? Americans say they listen to a podcast once a month at least So but we need to grow I mean, it's only a quarter of Americans I think there's still like 30 of people who've never heard of a podcast So we need to address that topic, but Jonathan If you can remember Throw back to you. This is gonna be a huge letdown now No, it's a while, but I'm just gonna say that I find we're talking about social media and I have found that Using audiograms for my podcast the little videos with the waveforms on them has been hugely helpful for my show just making The posts a lot more shareable. I have kids Tell jokes on my show they send them in record them on the parents phone send them in And I make little audiograms out of those jokes and I put them on instagram Facebook twitter and uh, and they got shared a lot and that's been I've definitely seen people come to the show through that right There's no way to tell like if that translates into subscribers necessarily right, but I mean you are seeing You're seeing engagement. So yeah, that's most we can ask for outside of them telling you I subscribe because of that audiogram, right? Right, right, right because it's a lot. It's anything extra that we have to do beyond our podcast Is more work right and it takes away from the production of the podcast So it can be difficult and you don't want to waste time if that's not actually doing what you want to do whether that's reaching people Engaging people Ultimately getting back to your podcast to subscribe. So it is interesting like I don't I'm curious how much we evaluate those things We do but And it looks like oh, I was just I was just going to mention that I in trying to branch out and get more New listeners. Um, I actually applied to there's a conference here in LA social media week and actually Applied to be a speaker to talk about how podcasting was being able to reach out to different listeners And so that was I hadn't heard back yet But that was one of the ways to get the face-to-face Interaction with people the other thing that we do on a monthly basis is we do a facebook live And we call it boss talks so that anybody can come and and ask questions or talk and we like to You know try to focus on the people that are in the the the trenches of the industry because they as you mentioned before They love to like they want to be on the show. It's not like I like we have so many people that already interview celebrities So much in our industry It's more like let's get the people who are really working it and in the trenches and are being bosses every day And so that was one of the ways that we tried to really attract new listeners is by having Um, you know face-to-face interaction as well as people who were not celebrities on our show Do you do you have a conference for your niche? That's where you need to go. Oh, yeah Yeah, and as a matter of fact, I just came back from a conference Two weeks ago It was one of the largest conferences in our industry and it was amazing to me how many people You know we're like fans and they're like, oh my god We get to meet the bosses because I co-host with another another colleague of mine And it was really because I didn't really have an idea I mean I have stats About how many people listen, but I I wasn't always hearing like the feedback or how much we really affected them And how they listen to us on every on a you know daily basis or whatever it was And so that interaction in a conference that big led to a whole lot more subscribers because we met people face-to-face You need to tell those people tell a friend Yeah, exactly. Tell a friend word of mouth is still I think the single best way that podcasts spread And do you know booth junkie? You know of booth junkie? I yes, I've heard of booth junkie. Yeah, you should you should get on your show I love it's a great youtube channel I bet he has a huge community that would be very interested in your part and there's also honest trailers too I know the guy who does on a show is awesome. There's huge. There's a screen. Yep. Yep I'm picturing how cool that conference would be could you see that? Hey, tell me how are you? Hey, nice to meet you. Where do you live? Hey, hey sunday sunday. Where do you live? Exactly We're we're so we're just like this the worst stereotypes terrible So so speaking of going to conferences from the very first Month we launched our show we connected with big fishing expos in in our in our region And we stand at a table with these big silly signs behind us and we talked to people and record live shows But also we get we made up a swag like decals and things like that And in order to get the free swag People had to literally take their phones out in front of us subscribe to the podcast Or show us they subscribed Then they get the swag and then they entered into the contest Dave has if you're not watching on video because you should be nerds youtube.com slash Podcasters roundtable. Yeah, I think that's it You I'm keeping it in the package so I can sell it off the lady is gonna sell it You know, Dave I've not sold one I've not sold one of those on their website When they open the podcasters hall of fame it'll go up on the wall. That's it. We have lots of swag lots of swag You know, um, one thing I was gonna say about reaching people who don't listen to podcasts Which is obviously a very difficult thing to do way to bring it back around. He's a pro Is uh One of the things because like you're saying right it's difficult sometimes to reach out to the audience If they're especially if they're kids who don't Have access to it because again through their parents is finding the people who talk to the audience That you want to reach whether they're podcasters or not. So like for us We reach out to a lot of librarians We I did a panel at a librarian conference. We're doing another one in June at a librarian conference teacher conferences. That's over thing the people who bring these stories to kids um And so I think that that is there's I'm sure that there there is that for every niche uh, you know librarians for kids, but obviously For any whatever niche you're in there's somebody who's talking to that audience who can let them know about your podcast Right influencer marketing like that's that's the key right like who has I mean, I'm bringing up the cheesy market marketing which I just makes me want to bomb it but But that's what it is essentially who has the ear of the people you want to reach right again Don't reinvent the wheel and try to reach all those people, you know, and that's like getting on a big podcast I mean, that's a great. It's a great tip for sure Yeah, one of the one of the things we also similar to what he's talked about is uh We also reached out to our local public radio affiliates And anytime they shared a story with fish relationships like anytime fishes in the news We would say, you know You really might want to have an expert on and talk about this and we got invited on to go to boston public radio and New Hampshire public radio Within a very short time of watching the podcast And then we were selling stories to them to air as part of their news program when the fish story came up They would call us and say go make the story and then we had to figure out how to edit and make npr style stories That helped grow the audience a little bit and then we got to speak At an event in boston called the rise of the podcast and we were an example of The rising podcasters and we spoke with prx shared the status prx and some other big Podcasting companies and we were just two guys talking about fish and it's awesome. I have a great great Genius marketing technique. You need to tag fish with a business card. So when a guy catches a fish or a lady Your your card is just right there. You could do it. Dave would have done it. Dave would have already done this You would have tagged all the fish. I'm doing it Awesome. Hey, Dave. I want hockey stick growth. I'm an american in 2018 I don't I watch videos for 10 seconds. I watch the next cat video. I'm on to something else I don't have time to grow my listeners chip one person at a time You're boring me. Give me hockey stick growth one thing I can do and I got a thousand new listeners Is that is there even anything like that? Does that happen in podcasting? The opera effect we talk about this we talk about this because like don't put your podcast on amazon s3 Because overnight you're gonna wake up with a thousand new subscribers or just maybe not subs Maybe just a massive downloads, right? So how about how about how about making an episode really popular? um And it doesn't mean they subscribed but you you caught a lot of attention and maybe Maybe a handful two percent of those people I actually subscribe for exposure For your show or an episode Um to a larger group of people anyone can answer this I put the pressure on Dave, but anyone can answer Um, or is there anything you're trying, you know one person at a time is great But if you could capture, you know, if you can get a thousand people Do you have any episodes where you saw like wow that episode was really popular?  I do I do last year we interviewed a New York Times best-selling writer who's a fly writer and that one blew up and then Like why did it just because he spread it? Why did it blow up his name in the industry is big Why are people searching in itunes for his name? Like it's not not they're not searching itunes It's it's comes up in the google searches. So the look at you came up You were so relevant already. I mean because you know what I mean? I'm sure his name I'm sure there's 10 other results before your podcast Well, their other thing is is he has a page on facebook for his fans And so I went there and said hey, can I post this? Yeah, I posted it and he said sure go ahead and you got to get him to post it because then Well, he didn't because he he actually doesn't use social media And he wouldn't even get on a computer for a phone call I had to do a phone call which was awful, but it was big and then Turns out if you use the word flat earth and your title of your podcast downloaded so I did Okay, wait a minute. What is that about because I have a bunch of tips from sp And he gave he sent me a top 10 list. Let me read some of these sp from better podcasting.com He said leave CDs in Of your top 10 episodes on a city bus create a myspace page post your past Episodes there 10 to 20 times a day Follow let's see attend hashtag flat earth or conference. What am I missing? Did he say that he said that? No, he's right I don't like there's no joke like A lot of this is a thing people believe in I don't by the way, I'm a circle II guy So you actually Yeah, I believe in the science stuff But there's is a huge growing community community and they're dying for content and they hate us You know round earthers And so they they get on they interact with us. They argue science and they If nobody was talking they're fabulous.  Yeah, I don't know do it. Do it like a flat earth's guide to podcasting growth and you'll win So with that episode Are you saying go interview big names in your space? Is that enough like to get It will you have to interview them? I need to find out where their audience is sitting and then put it in front of their audience And that's kind of the second part of it because otherwise nobody knows about it right The one thing that's easy that I see a lot of people just Below it they and I understand why because it's probably the last thing you're going to do Before you hit publish and that is the title of your episode so many people Just I I saw one like so Like PR has number sign 174 colon A show about something is not a good title. I'm not making this up the title would be Podcasters round table. Yes, and then the second episode would be called podcasters round table two No episode two. No. Oh, no. No just So the name of the show is podcasters round table episode one was called podcasters round table episode two is called podcasters round table So what is I to be doing? How do I fix this terrible era making?   That's going to get them to to listen to that episode because I told the person I said What if I really like episode number two? How am I going to tell my friend go to podcasters round table and listen to the episode called podcasters round table? They're going to go which one Because they were all named the title of the show and I was like wow Now we're going to get we're going to slippery slope into Episode numbers, but yeah, I won't go there. It should be something that That makes you want to click on it. Yeah, so itunes too. Well, so if you're in an apple podcast, I'm never gonna I'm never make a switch you but Um, yeah, I mean if people are searching For your topic fishing, you know Fly fishing if you did that whole episode on fly fishing that better be in your title Yeah, I'm not you're not kidding and if you do a clickbait title like like uh the five best flies for fly fishing They do really well Even in a podcast even in a podcast. I know youtube works great, but yeah, it works good And and I think you have the web or for itunes I you know, I don't know where I just know all my stats the numbers go up a little bit But it's not like thousands. It's it's dozens But dozens is a lot when you're doing one person ahead time. You will not believe what happened Well, if I can say that you you like kind of supplement that in the back end of your website to really I mean, I've done extensive work trying to build in SEO into my website So I actually get every episode transcribed I put that into the page You know, I offer that as an open up into the page All the titles are like, you know, header ones header twos and so we've done a lot of work For that and it doesn't there's not an immediate ROI on that It's it does take some time because there's some longevity But we're trying to build in those terms that I've been associated with for a long time and just to see if that helps but You know, I'm trying to build it that way versus, you know Rather in in itunes, but on the but on the back end of the website as well people are going to ask Oh, wait, should I be doing transcripts? What do we think of transcripts? This is an interesting topic I Did it for SEO, right? But We've talked about it before it isn't an open up for SEO. I don't know. It's it's well, okay, theoretically Google and so the the I think Daniel will tell you he's not here. We'll see him again. Um That google or maybe even Todd will tell you Todd Cochran Do you get penalized for that because it's not conversation in a transcript is not Um It's not it's not written for people to consume right and in a written form So I think there was a time it seems obvious I mean, it's not like a it seems if I have every word of the conversation in there I've got all the keywords, but I think if you just write Well written show notes because this is an expense, right? So the thing is and I'm I'm curious if it's better for your show It may be worth it if it's not Then maybe you could put that money elsewhere I don't know Dave what we're gonna say because we don't we don't write Talk like we write, right? So I know for me a page that's just been Transcript copy paste and I go to that website I go uh, uh not not happening and so what happens now is you've got the google juice But the problem is your bounce rate just went up because I went to one page and said no, thank you Um, yeah, it's not my page. It's it's an open up window which may or may not even get into the SEO So I do show notes and I do tweetable, you know Yeah, and then it's yeah, it's click here. It opens a window for the transcript So it's not even visible unless you click and I don't even know if google gets that information for it But we do work on the show page as well There's been a lot of talk recently too about the accessibility issue And having transcripts of your podcast available for people who are hard of hearing Um, and I'm very obviously very sympathetic to that as well. So even if it's not um Translated subscribers or SEO there is Sort of a public good aspect to to having your transcripts as well for sure. Yeah, that's a great That's another great point because people I know that this is one Dave You probably see all the time as people, you know a you've got every transcript service contacting you Oh, but we have a new one should people do it. I just use them. Uh, what do I just do?  They're not sponsoring the show Dave Whoever you are. Remember Dave's about to blur out his mouth. We want money. Yeah, that's it Uh, it's uh, well here. Let me let me plug the person who told me Emily pro cop who is not in the chat room tonight What I know hard to believe the story behind this has Ellie Emily's always here. Yeah e-podcast productions Uh told me about temmie T-e-m-i Temmie that's what I said, uh 10 cents a word and I use them on I I was really really tired to not want to type show notes So I as I was you know, kind of finishing up the recording I was like, I'm gonna try this because the first one's like free and I did a really good job It's not a person. It's a robot that's transcribing it and then you can kind of go in and It's I don't know how to explain it But you click on a word and you can hear what it is And that whole nine yards and at the end you can kind of For me, I needed to beat it out of The transcript into more of a written form and it actually wasn't that bad It also if you ever do that because that was a show I did off the top my head It also shows you how completely add you are if you are Because all of a sudden you see in print where okay, I went off topic here I went off topic here and it actually made me want to go back and rerecord it But uh since we're talking transcripts, that's the latest found. Yeah, it's an interesting topic because it's It's hard to tell how much it helps and if it's good or bad and it does cost money So I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's just an interesting topic and people always want to know You know, should I should I have my podcast transcribed and I I like the accessibility? Yeah, you guys Do you do you find that people actually spend time on your websites? I find that I get almost no one at my website everyone seems to get it That's hard to tell so we have a new podcast at work And I just looked at the stats recently because someone asked otherwise I never almost look at stats and the majority of listens is coming from From chrome and mozilla. I mean websites, right? But that doesn't that still doesn't tell me doesn't tell me how much they listened. Um, it just tells me that they've probably clicked play so You know and other people will tell you I think rob david lipson will tell you that you know People get easily distracted on a website, you know, we're on a on a podcast that you click play You're ready to listen to a podcast on a web page you click play and there's other things to go to so you click away And that might be fine exposure is good if people sample your podcast It's not a bad thing Maybe they just want to sample it and then then they pull up their app and they go subscribe But you know, I think social actually in this case is driving that because it's a newer podcast We have a huge social media following and people come to the page They may try it where they go after that who knows and I think that's probably the main function of a website Having a podcast player there so that people can see what is this about click play? Do I want to listen also? Probably a good reason to get right to the point when you start your podcast And not have a lot of chitter chatter where people like I don't they click play the sample and they're out because they you spent the first Even minute just talking about something. It's not relevant Yeah in front of go ahead and oh, I'm sorry I was just going to say that I use it to drive people to the website to sign up for the mailing list So I have like a pop-up mailing list and then I'm able to send them email each Week with the release episode and then sell all other things That are related to the podcast And do you give added value with your? newsletter like good newsletter and you get the top five tricks for speaking clearer or I do but again, it's it's a lot of time. I mean it's we're working very hard But we are getting people who are coming for other reasons than just the podcast But for all the supplemental reasons like we sell the consulting services or a product that does marketing campaigns for the industry and that sort of And that really is a key to well for that. That's a key to website is that that they came Didn't know you had a podcast and found out you had a podcast and now you have a listener, right? I think that that's helpful. So you need to have you need to have it there in order for them to say Oh, there's also a podcast about this. Yeah Yeah, I want a deep dive right your subscriber is the person who's going to deep dive and they're going to listen to a podcast Yeah, Dave and then that that podcast then drives them right back to the website. So it's kind of this That's the way it works. No one ever goes back to the website after this None I don't care about the links in your show notes, Dave. No, they don't It's in the app like you can put links in your in the apps now, right? Like so if you say You know, if you're listening to this Swipe left on your app and you can get the link to our whatever that I think I talked about Does anyone do you guys include links in your in your show notes that show up in apps some apps support this some don't Do you use them? Do you use those links and then what do you use them for what's your call to action in a podcast? I asked a lot of questions there Go with the first one. Do you guys know and use links in your podcast show notes that go into your feed? So they're actually clickable in the apps Who does that? I do that Who doesn't do that? I don't think I understand what you're asking. Awesome So if I'm listening to your show on on pocketcast And I'm listening and you say and you say hey join our newsletter All you have to do is click the link right there in your app And I I look at the show notes in the app. I got a link So I don't I don't have to go to your website to sign up. Right. Right. Right. Right. Okay. I do that Yeah, yeah, when you said swipe left I was I well that tells us what kind of apps you you uh, you should yeah No, I thought the same thing Yeah, anyways, the thing I did in my last episode is I asked my audience a question and I said if you have any comments feel free to call And depending on the app and I'll hold this up I have my voicemail number there And when you put a phone number In, you know, your typical three digits dash etc etc in theory. I can click this is that itunes because if we Apple podcast. Yeah, and I only want to matter. So when I click that it's now going to call my my voicemail number Awesome. Does it work? Uh, does it work? Uh, survey set not not the phone number. I know the phone number works Uh, no does the call actually call no one calls. Nobody called so, uh But I will people people call you show the time don't they I'm going to say I I usually if I'm doing a super duper call to action I hit it really hard, especially at the beginning This was kind of more towards the end and that's the worst place to put a call to action How it's it's the best place to put it. It's also the worst place to put it At the end Yeah, because on one hand the people that hear that are your diehard fans And that's really the best people to do it But on the other hand, there's always that chance that somebody Quit at the 30 minute mark and if you're selling something The the most likely person to buy it is going to be there towards the end If you're trying to get a subscriber you need to get them before they bail Um, and that that kind of goes to my question of What's your call to action a podcast? So a lot of people come and they listen again that sampling behavior That man. Wow. It sounds like it took a marketing class when I said that what is sampling behaviors made that up Sampling someone take checking out your podcast.  That's your one shot to get them into being a subscriber Do you in the beginning say hey subscribe to my podcast? Do you annoy the subscribers when you do that? Where do you do you have a call to action for subscribe anyone? No one no one tells their audience so you at the end I go to youtube all at the end, but everyone most 95 percent of people are gone Um, and the people who are left at the end are your subscribers So I definitely would think about shifting that if you do give that call to action But on youtube you have to tell people like and and we hear this in podcasts all the time I think uh, paul colligan will tell you like if you don't You don't ask people aren't going to do it right you have to remind them that you sort of need This thing to be done, but podcasts are a little different.  Do you do you want to tell people to subscribe to your podcast? What do you do because you've done Yeah, and what I did was instead of saying subscribe to me on apple podcast and stitcher and in spotify and iHeart radio I have one page school of podcasting.com slash subscribe. Where do you put that? Where's that call to action where would I put that? Typically at the end and you're right. I probably should put it somewhere at least in the middle It's like if you put it at the beginning someone's going to make a podcast show reviewing beginnings of podcasts And they're going to shut you down before you get two minutes in so personal like Yeah, so if you that is true because if you ask me to subscribe and I haven't heard anything yet Why would I subscribe I haven't heard ten minutes and 37 seconds is the optimal place to put it because we know If you're in your commute you stop to drive through a starbucks on average two times and you can have time to subscribe Sorry i'm going on my average length podcast rant. Yeah. Hey, so so Dave Dave brought up phone calls earlier just a few minutes ago and it reminded me I don't hear mine. I switched gears a little bit here But Dave reminded me of that phone call business and so many folks so many podcasts have speak pipe A custom phone number And we're talking about growing new your audience as a podcaster You can call those shows and get your Voice for 30 seconds or a minute in front of their audience without even being a guest on the show I've been on Dave's show in the same way. My show has a hotline to 607 378 fish Anyone can call leave voicemail. I always played on the show And I call in lots of other shows and I hit the speak pipe button on lipson on the feed podcast And I call into those shows and every time I say Fishners podcast fishners podcast and try to get Maybe I try to be interesting enough where people want to listen but You're getting your name in front of more and more people every time you do it to the rest of you call shows Or do you have a call a phone number for your show? I have a I have a speak pipe call phone number I have a google voice Number that's what I use Yeah Yeah, I think and I have one too and the key is to actually play that if you're asking for feedback include that feedback, right? That's the same thing if you go to school of podcast.com slash contact You'll see my email. You'll see my speak pipe and you'll see my phone number from podcast voicemail.com I think it's important This is like a I won't go on my mini rant about this But I think it's important to have many different ways For the audience to be on your show Because different people have different Ways of wanting to interact with you. So like having your email having your Phone number encouraging them to record themselves and email it to you whatever it is Everybody's going to have a different level of comfort for how they come to your show And I think opening yourself up to all those different avenues is going to get you a lot more of that engagement feedback Then uh, and if you just say have a voicemail or just an email or something like that Right, you want to eliminate the I didn't know how to contact you. It's like no, here's here's you know On one hand, we always hear don't give them too many choices But on the contact pages like take your pick. Yeah, right voicemail whatever you want. Here it is Choose one and do it. Yeah, but uh clay was talking about leaving the the reason I know steve stewart Is a he kept contacting my show and then I heard him on the feed And then I heard him on another one and then I and then I finally got the medium Um and steve just for a while was everywhere every I mean every show I listened to If if if somebody asked a question They would get you know, hey if you have any questions blah blah blah and it was like hey We got a question this week. It's from steve stewart and he was just everywhere. So Yeah, it's a good tip. I mean feedback is hard as a podcaster It can be hard to get feedback, especially when you don't have much of an audience, right? So It's an easy easy quote-unquote opportunity for you To go out and get in front of other audiences by actually participate people love podcasters love when you reach out It's not like getting an email from someone who'd heard the show Um, that's cool. Even no matter how big as a listener you think that show is Email them like, um, you might not get as much feedback as you think because that's a high threshold activity Like it's hard to do to actually get in touch with somebody So like Dave saying steve was everywhere. He's been on this show and that's how I'm sure that's how I know of him too because he just Showed up and he will provided You know good feedback not just like hey like to be on your show Well, I'm going to an event in uh in april in nashville and steve stewart is going to be my we're sharing a hotel So he's gone from email or to roommate. It might be tmi there, but I'm happy for you two He was happily married. No Well, you know, I mean the thing too is that if you're going to do that too respond to the emails that you get I think that's like a huge thing That's a huge way to cultivate that word of mouth is that You respond to the email that you get and then they get you build that relationship with them And then they say, oh, hey, I know Ray because I emailed with him about this and they tell other people about your show as well So I think that's definitely a big part of this and the sad thing is people will actually be surprised when you do it They'll thank you. Yeah. Oh, thanks for getting back to me and my My way and not as good as it used to be but I tried to actually do that And do it within like 24 hours do it fast. I try to do it fast because never get back to it Yeah, you a it'll be harder to get back to Um, I also leave short emails The long emails are almost impossible for me to get back to when you short. I get right back to you But um people are surprised because this doesn't happen. It's not common Um youtube all the time people don't answer their comments. I have for answer comments people like Oh my god, I didn't actually expect you to answer my question. Which is just crazy but so Engaging back And that is one of the reasons I think I see Someone take another step forward to becoming a subscriber when you actually engage back because There you are you're you're there and people appreciate that so Um, it's a sad state of affairs that people don't get back to people, but it's an opportunity for you What is that picture Dave? Oh, sorry, that's okay I don't let me click on Dave Dave's holding up a picture and he looked Tim Dewey Show him a Christmas card He lost his audio, so I don't know what happened there Thank you Dave's done a lot of episodes. Are you back now? I'm back now. That's weird. Yeah Uh, that is Tim Dewey Speaking of of having conversations with people and he used to say he does the sled dog podcast And he said I talked to you more than I do my friends who live like right down the street Because he would leave a voicemail. I would answer the voicemail with like speak pipe or something like that And we would just have this time shifted conversation He's like I end up talking to you like You know eight nine times a month. He goes my friend lives right down the street. I maybe talk to him, you know Once every two months So you do have this conversation with your audience which is it's time shifted, but it's cool Anchor used to be really great for that and then they changed and they try to do a podcasting And I don't know what the heck anchor does anymore, but and we interrupted Oh, I was just gonna ask if any of you guys have had any success with um I'm using with with a facebook messenger. I'm using uh many chat. Is that it? Um, only because I was listening to j baria podcast and he had that running and it wasn't obnoxious And so it's kind of a fine line. I just didn't know if any of you guys Is that a bot you get it back and forth? Yeah, it's a bot. So this is like the new thing I'm hearing about facebook bot. It's like I don't know if they're good or bad. I don't understand bots What's it called again? It's called many chat so, uh, yeah, and you can sign up for a free account and then anytime somebody, um Comes onto your facebook business page, of course Um, they can they can be added onto a list and then you can broadcast out to them Or you can like I tied mine to the youtube channel. So every time a podcast comes out It'll automatically just pop up a messenger saying the new episode is out and I found that to be the least annoying Because if you get messenger, you know, yeah, I wouldn't want anything to do with that Yeah, I don't want IMS, but Well, it's not I only kind of did that because I was taking examples from other podcasts that I've subscribed to But if people opt into it then I yeah, they do they opt in they opt into it. Which is fine I mean, so and then you can get even more like verbose and ask questions and get responses And then if this then that and you can do that all in the messenger So I didn't know if anybody was doing that here. Yeah, I'm not doing it But it's I mean sort of in our it's sort of an elevated form of social media. I would say Yeah, that doesn't work Well, that's what that was my question. I mean, it's kind of nice that that you get a pop-up every time the episode is released They will you know if they're on facebook because a lot of my audience is on facebook Um, and so if they just happen to be in facebook, they'll be a pop-up And they'll just say the latest episode is here and that's it I don't I don't and if somebody decides to you know respond to that or say hey great episode I will immediately be able to see that and respond to it right away a little bit easier for me than a Than a phone call just because that's where I reside I'll have a facebook open at some point like Most of the hours of the day because people communicate to me that way in my industry So for me it works it works for for me in terms of engagement. Yeah, I know in social media marketing world they had multiple sessions on how bots are the second coming and You're either going to love them or hate them, but they're coming and a lot of people are going to use them So I did not attend any of those I wanted to But according to michael stelsner, you're either in the oh man, this is the best thing ever or the There's no way i'm doing that he goes there's no in between so I think I think if it's opt in I mean it's with a podcast it's anything you can do to remind your audience We're here and there's a new episode and they've opted into it fine Right as long as you know, it's just like an email newsletter, you know pop-ups on your website can be annoying Um, but you know if they're if they're before you leave sometimes that's better I mean, yeah, these just these are opinions right? I mean and the thing is sometimes these things work Yet You don't like them like I don't have a pop-up website because I hate them, but I will admit They they do work. They will drive x amount of sign-ups and that it's personal preference.  So it's a decision, right? It's what do you value?  I mean that's you know If you're not gonna having social media accounts and then sort of just never being there to respond is Probably worse than not being there at all. Yeah another opinion, but um, what else can we do? What what can we tell new podcaster? We're getting close to the end here, but Someone just started a show. They're listening to this show because they need to find out what the heck to do next Uh, their show is amazing, but they need to um, they want to grow it They're they're obsessing with their stats because every new podcaster obsesses So so even when they see they went from 10 downloads to 15 downloads They're they're like doing the jig. Is that the jig? Is that a why do I sound so old? Doing the foxtrot They're like b-bomb the walls I'm old. I'm not dad. Anyways We need advice. It's advice time I'm on the round table. Um, I've just started a new podcast and I want to know what to do And since Dave you're the co-host we put you in the hot seat first What should I do? um Sorry, you didn't say our show is good, right? Your show is amazing. It's amazing It's amazing. If if I just put it in front of the right of the people who I'm speaking to they'll subscribe Well, that's how do I find them because we've already talked about going to events Around your your industry. That would be a great place because that is your your I can I just build it and they'll show up some will right? I mean my essay I did my essay. I put the right title the night in apple podcast, Dave They're gonna show up. They're searching for it. Well, I'm done. That's true But but that's again going back to you know I've got five new downloads this week and I'm looking for A hundred that's the problem every listener counts Dave. No, they all count It's just I want a hundred not five. I get it. Yeah, so, um Trying to think where else to go. I mean it really is a matter of what's my first move I haven't so I have a podcast. I have no business card nothing a business card business card is step one Really? Yeah, that would be my step one. It's not gonna end up in the trash as I give it to you Um, probably it will what I mean if I give it to the right person maybe because if I give it out to everybody Because then you're wasting money if I'm standing in line at the grocery store And somebody sees my t-shirt And they go you do a podcast that go you actually I teach people how to podcast and they go, oh cool I have to check it out. What is it? I go school of podcasting.com.  What about clay's approach in that one? You if you're gonna give out don't give me a business card until they sign up on their phone Well, how about just the card that you have? Yeah, I know I know but I'm and I'm saying Take the you know have them if you're in line to go to your board anyway So pull out your phone grab apple podcast. That's it and and or I don't know text them a message. I don't know. I'm trying to think how what's more effective like Because we know the business card. It's it's good If you need you don't want to have to try to memorize something So anything you can give somebody with that with the name of it that they can type but going to their phone is probably more direct You're right That's actually a better strategy because now they don't have to remember it and you can even show them and train them And make sure they know how so they can go in there Yeah, and then go tell them to tell somebody else qr codes. It's the future Say in my qr code. I get his tattoo on my chest. This is gonna get weird All right, well now the rest of you had time so clearly we have genius Genius tips so whoever wants to jump in To the new podcaster advice like I've done nothing. I've started new pod. I started a podcast I'm just gonna go make the no one. I'm not gonna tell anyone about it Um, but maybe I should maybe I should do something I I wanted one tip beyond what we said before which I think Maybe clay has kind of gotten at a little bit is like be an active part of a community In which your podcast is relevant, you know, so not just just not just promoting your own podcast, but Be there, you know, whether it's on facebook or wherever or twitter or wherever it is And be a contributing member to that Community so that people you're not like you said not just self promotion I mean, I know I don't I just met clay tonight But I know his name because I see him in facebook podcasting groups all the time I'm like, oh that guy's pretty smart He's buttering up his fan Clay go tell a lot of people I'm so happy But you know, it's uh It's like I mean, it's a real thing. I you we see it all The time and say facebook groups where people only jump in to mention their own show or something like that But they're actually offering help to people Um, I think that's that's a huge way to get people to recognize and become a part of your show Yeah, I think it's a good tip.  We've talked them in your niche. That's cool. But super expensive. A lot of people can't do that But there's always going to be Uh, a hashtag on twitter for that conference. There's going to probably be someone's live tweeting Uh from a session or the conference overall Tweet chats that they call them I get in those follow hashtags and get in that in the conversation People it'll always be like cue like question and then yeah, right like I have found I've just been I've found so many people relevant to the subject that was participating in through Twitter like hashtags or even now instagram is really big with hashtags follow a hashtag. Um, give real Real feedback on people's photos and stuff and they'll just find out who you are, right? You don't have to like like Jonathan saying, you know, you're not just there. Hey, check out my podcast. That's not really gonna work That's spam. Dave is gonna just set you out immediately But yeah, so I like it and there's ways around, you know Not having a budget you can definitely pretend online communities is a fantastic one. Google plus used to be amazing for this It was a community for everything. I don't know. I guess it's sort of still exists But whatever there's a platform where your audience already is gathering and talking So you need to jump into that pool Uh having conversation. Um, ann, what do you what do you got? Um, well, I think engagement is super important and you know, we've also tried something relatively new in terms of getting a different audience On instagram more of a millennial kind of a following and what's really interesting is we did kind of an experiment where we did a Instagram takeover one day and we used all the appropriate hashtags and we said, hey, take a picture of your day Show us how you're being a boss. Who did you take on? And um, well our account account.  Yep We let the audience take over to show how they do that you give them the login. How does that work?  So now we're at the point where we're like Just take seven photos of yourself during the day being a boss Here's an example of what other people have done And we have and then we go ahead and we post and we use the appropriate hashtags And what's amazing is that we not only gained followers just because it was a whole it was just fun for everybody That already followed us But we got all those people's followers as well Right and that's that's one of the point too like it's not always about getting people to play your podcast Through social but building through social so that it kind of the same concept of an email list is so you can Repeatedly because we know from ads you have to tell people seven times before they you know Might take action. So if they are interacting if you're there on a daily basis, they learn who you are They see, you know, it may take like three months on instagram But they'll see a post and oh, I am interested in that content, right? It might not be this episode But it might be four episodes later when you talk about something they really want to Make the effort to go over and listen And we're lucky because in reality, I mean being a boss is kind of you know Why industry happens to be pretty, you know, it's kind of a smaller industry But being a boss is pretty much global So we have the opportunity of kind of throwing spaghetti against the wall and then finding those people that may not have ever found us Otherwise saying oh, yeah, that's awesome. I'm a boss and yeah, I'm interested in voiceover And therefore they subscribe to the the podcast and and it just gets them in at a deeper level When you said boss, I I got the impression you were saying like Like the boss man, like like as in like, uh, like you're the boss be the boss of your own But are you talking about actual bosses like managers? No, I'm just talking about okay. We just said there was a lot of bosses. So I thought maybe worldwide But be a boss of your own company. It's entrepreneurship. Okay, so basically that's so it's kind of yeah It's kind of appealing to that whole be because any creative no matter what they do if they're in voiceover Acting it's your own boss. So that is a more global Being a boss. It's both ways. You can have it both ways. You can be a boss. Yeah, exactly In case you're wondering podcastboss.com already taken I do not own it He will don't worry Don't get it in the auction For $30,000 So so everyone's really saying engage engage engage that's what we're saying over and over again So two other things I've done is one is if I'm in a facebook group And I'm in a lot I'm in obviously in the podcasting groups but a lot of fishing groups as well And we're getting a lot of hot debates and I'll invite people on my show They say no that I'll do a segment called facebook theater where I will take the thread of conversation And I will write a script and my daughters and I will act it out and we will include that in the show as Part and then I'll link that back into that conversation thread so that john can hear a 10 year old girl Doing a question of him Which is really great and they love it. They love it. It's so fun. The other thing I've done is Uh, I've engaged my audience and invited me part of the show really engaged Listeners are actually great podcasters in a lot of ways. So my co-host left a year or so ago And now I've got 18 segment producers who used to be listeners And now they produce little four to eight minutes segments for the show and submit them to my show When I use them and of course that engagement grows with them. So I have got a a cooking correspondent and a biologist and I've got a shark fisherman and I've got all kinds of different people Who make stories for me? So my show's like a magazine And that for me that allows more engagement If I was doing a scripted show be harder if I was an entrepreneur show, I don't even know what that means Uh, that's harder. By the way, I could use some help with the entrepreneur. I'm gonna talk to you um because I don't I don't make money on this show, but uh Patreon but uh, but engagement engagement is really the critical thing and value Your listeners if they make a comment anywhere Say their name on your show at the minimum. They love it. And you know, I know I'm like Dave and I are friends and Dave mentioned my name Like three weeks ago on a show and I still got a little tear in my eye. I was like, I used to have my name You know, I was so happy So engage your audience people love to hear their voice even if it's not their own voice if it's your daughter doing their voice but get their opinions out there and Allow for dissent and whatever conversation happens for your show. It's great. Um, so I just engage in is really the trick, isn't it? Yeah, no, that's great. Um, for me, I would say, you know, we talk about Dave mentioning I mean he mentions a round table on a show and he's been a co-host from day one and I still I'm like, oh, thanks, Dave It's amazing. I mean he's practically his show like I like Why would you do that? It's amazing. So and he'll pull out segments. So it is it doesn't matter People love it no matter what even if you think that they are, you know, they're so un-embedded.   Don't don't view people as competition Um, and even if you don't view I mean you might be worried that someone you think Oh, but they probably think i'm competition or i'm trying to do something Um, you know devilish here and and get in front Just go have real conversations have fun with the other people in your community And uh, I think that there's some some surprising things will happen there I mean, I think too that the thing that you realize the longer you're doing your podcasting and you're talking to your audience The more appetite there is out there for the type of show that you're making so The idea of competition starts to kind of melt away after a while because you realize That your listeners will listen to another show, but you're not going to lose them to that show They just want more content, right? And so we did that with a kid we started a group called kids listen Which is an organization that helps try to promote quality audio for kids and it's been It's I think there's 50 podcasts that are now a part of it And you would think that we would all be competing with each other But instead we're always all talking to each other up because we realize that The audience is thirsty for this stuff.  It's good content. You're nice for having conversations From the outside listeners just start to see you as another Great source for content in that niche, right? So yeah, you do have to put some of that aside and think, you know, I can do this too, but really it's just just showing up Um, inconsistency is obviously key. I'm terrible at it but if you can be consistent in your niche and have those conversations and And um be there as a resource that'll do a lot and it'll take time Right, we all know that I think we've heard that this is built slowly But it does build podcasts do build and what you know, there's the I need to find new listeners But how many do you really need right? There's going to be a ceiling and what do you need them for?  I guess but You know, we hear that in podcasting you can do a lot more with a lot less You know, there's the thousand dedicated Audiences and there's all kinds of theories on that but you know, I think You can do more with less because you're speaking to a very specific person So it comes back to valuing each each subscriber again and realizing when your downloads go from 10 to 15 Like what those five people mean then and I think part of that engagement, you know Trying to get those people it is again feedback is hard to get right. I think maybe one goal is to really try and get I think john then you were saying people like to interact differently So trying different ways email me or call in or you know, there's contests that can certainly do I don't Is anyone a fan of doing contests that worked for an email list but people are only signing up to get Uh the thing that you're giving away, but a couple people will stay I mean, I don't know anyone use contests to get that's another one people like oh do a contest or get a lot more I I I do contests and I've been doing them for years and I only get four or five entries into most even and I've got a pretty good audience now But people just don't enter and so I end up, you know, I'll end up having a prize worth a couple hundred bucks or And then You know, I five people throw the name in the hat and the same person seems to win every time So, yeah, so I haven't found out that maybe that's just not one route for you, right? No, not right now. Maybe not for me Yeah, yeah, that's good to know Yeah, I've done that in the past. I did a uh, and it just dawned me. I haven't done one of these in a while But I used to do About a yearly survey kind of like what do you like about the show? What do you wish I would do differently? What would you like to hear about in the show in the future? Just kind of like get a pulse. How old are you? You know, etc. etc. etc to see who's listening Um, and I just don't know me. I haven't done one of these in a while And I used to do like the 25 dollar amazon gift card or and I'm saying thing with clay I'd get you know, whatever 10 people I think that there's new podcasters probably aren't doing that enough Like surveyed like actually figuring out who the heck's listening to your podcast So we talk about how do I find an audience when I'm new? Well, you kind of need to know who the audience is And they're probably different than who you think you're making the podcast for Right. That's probably the key, right? So I That's the thing needs to be done surveys.  This is a google forms is even forms. Yeah, I agree google forms is great Yeah, because survey monkey, I think limits you to 100 respondents and we would all love to get 100 respondents I think you're only limited to 10 questions where google forms. It's as many as you want as much as you want Yeah, and it's free and you know, maybe that's a good thing when you do those things Do them on your podcast only not on social because you do if they're responding they came from your podcast, right? Most likely So I don't know. It's a really it's something that I don't do enough of and I should but I think again You might be surprised who's listening and then I might give you some ideas about what other places to go To find that new audience Yeah, you never know who's listening. I mean we talked about uh I go to meetup.com. I have a northeast Ohio meetup and we have maybe five to ten people But one of those five people Was a guy that works at the local tv station and when they needed a podcast guru He's like, oh, I know a guy right down the street So I got to go on tv So you never know who's listening and and you might be surprised that somebody really really cool Hey, dave, did you find going on tv grew your audience? The only person I know of That saw that that I heard about was my dentist I walked in I walked in and she goes were you on tv a couple weeks ago?  Yeah, um, no, I did not see the bump at all you know, you know one thing that was kind of funny that happened to me was that uh A talent scout for a radio ad campaign for american family insurance Wanted to do Profile somebody who like worked from home for their ad campaign and her kid liked my show So I did this ad for american family insurance and I always hear from people. Oh, yeah, we heard about you on the american family insurance commercial selling insurance and uh and for the podcast Pretty funny Interesting because because to say a similar thing we I make um radio ads for other companies and for TV at local tv and they're called fish nerds minutes and the Radios and tv sells ads on the edge ends of the one minute segments I make for them And so I sell the I make the content sell the content to the radio station They use it over and over again on the tv and they just sell different ads as bumpers And so this is the fish nerds minutes one minute about fish But on the ends could be any kind of ad they want to sell uh and no growth from it But people in the streets go I heard you on the radio and I'm like, yeah, but by podcast Cool. Hear me more here. Yeah We're deep. I think I started the close of this about 20 minutes ago. But that's okay. Anyone left is There's no end hardcore But because I because I thought of another question. So forget it. We're gonna keep going I'll have to just do that 64 kilobits a second. Um, so I am curious because I think and you brought this up who's or maybe even clay Anyone because people want to know Who's paying to get in front of other people Who's paid or paying Facebook ads I try thought about it Thought about it. So clay you thought about it. Clay nothing you do works, buddy The podcast is great, but you're marketing I feel that's like a really It's gonna be on clay on clay's tube stone. Nothing he tried to work Tell my wife You're not kidding and by the way like I I'm a science guy like I I used to be a science teacher I love science and therefore I love failure. I learned so much from from messing up. I love being wrong I'm totally good about it. But yeah, I I've spent I don't know hundreds over the maybe thousands over the past five years on facebook ads and never seen one That had measurable impact on downloads. I can get numbers of likes up no problem But actual people listening to the podcast and facebook. I've just kind of I've stopped giving them my money because There's no overcast. I think you gotta try overcast. Yeah, I don't I'm gonna try it overcast I that's that's I was gonna say that's the one I tried facebook ads twitter ads. Yeah Overcast I was the one that worked Because people are there looking for podcasts So it's like here's a suggestion of a podcast while you're in a podcast app and you can target like It's facebook ads for podcasters really And it's just so it just feels so good to be able to say I got this many subscribers From this ad which you can't you can't do in any other Any other like getting a social ad or whatever. I I mean apple I mean, there's be good revenue for for apple. It's clay. I think this one's gonna work, buddy You know, I shocked I became and I question for like how much would you pay? Per subscriber if you could say for sure if I gave x amount of money per subscriber How much would you pay? Yeah, it depends on what's worked to you, right?  Well, in reality, it's that's that's a really good question. Um, well That's a really good question because I'm like yeah, I I'm like I want listeners but more important than I mean I want I want loyal listeners and I want like good quality listeners I don't necessarily care about the number of listeners, but the quality listeners that are listening to me There's a reason for it. They need help in that area and I'm providing content that's helping them and so therefore they have a The down the road they might need more than what I'm giving to them in the podcast So rather than for me, it's always been rather than trying to to monetize the podcast. It was let's monetize The content around the podcast Uh, but you know, that's a really good question. I I don't know, you know Like I said, I have an ad ready to go and I don't think it's going I'm really going to change that I have two ads ready to go One is to build the numbers of the podcast the second ad is for a product that I sell That's related to the podcast, but it's you know, it's consulting kind of marketing blast Have you thought about advertising on the fish nerds podcast? No, I know but Would you would you pay two dollars and eight cents? $1.99 only that's that's my max because that's what it was for me. I just I just pulled up my overcast account I got 168 subscribers for 350 bucks which calculates the two dollars and eight cents solid The thing is yeah, like Ann says quality. So I'm gonna assume that 20 of those people are still That's the question, right? So the so the real value is whatever math that works out to do is I'm not doing that But you know, so you're paying. I don't know 20 some 20 bucks a subscriber or whatever. So But I overcast is yeah as a model. I wouldn't mind seeing other people use. I I agree. I think it's really smart Yeah, it was smart move. Yeah, I actually I pay for overcast I pay the 10 bucks a year or whatever it is just to support Marco, but I still keep the ads on because I'm curious to see what other shows are out there You know, it's not like I'm being You know sold something. I don't want to see I want to see other podcasts. So I think it's great. Yeah All right, I will stop with that one. That was amazing Um, hopefully if you're still listening you got some tips if you're still listening You're probably waiting for the tip but that we're out That's it. That's all we got. Don't worry. We'll do this round again because this is a popular You know growing audience is always popular When I ask you to submit your topics at podcasterroundtable.com slash guest A lot of people will say how to grow your audience. So I uh, I think each one of you said something about that's clearly how you got here. Um, Otherwise, I had no clue who you are. I'm kidding I've interacted with several so thank everyone and uh, let it remind us again The url for your show and thanks again for joining us on the rest. Sure. Well, you can find us at vio boss vio boss.com actually we'll get you everything you need to know all our socials Um and uh podcast. Yeah, it's a good url. It's easy to remember short bo the letters are there Everyone's called boss. That's right. I dig it. All right Clay fish nerds also a good name. I like that. Thank you. Uh, yeah, that one worked clay. Something worked fish nerds Finally, that wasn't my name. I might I had something else my partner my part of changes when that worked fail everything The more the more I give you more hard time. I give you the more.  It makes me happen Uh, hey, so fish nerds.com for everything and I'm also a licensed fishing guide and actually my show makes money through Driving business my guide service. So that's fun. But yeah fish nerds.com for all your fishy needs And we're not just a fishing show. We talk science and biology and cooking and Whatever silliness we want to do. So it's it's a lot of fun and thank you for having me on the round table I've been wanting to be on this show for like three years and I'm trying I I get I I get star struck and so it's night one of those nights where like Everyone on the show tonight. I know from the internet or from other podcasts And so I'm nervous and I'm having such a great time. So thank you so much. You're awesome, man We surprised you with Jonathan. That was our special surprise. Oh, man Don't even know Yeah, I have to ask Because people paid to go on a guide with you. Do you tell them about the podcast or did you not push it on? I do and I have a giant logo of my podcast on my ice shanty. I'm an ice fishing guide And I record podcasts in the ice shack And so yeah, and and about I would say about half of my clients are listeners And they'll be on the ice and they go, hey clay remember that time you made fun of that sharp guy and I'm like, no I just don't remember because I like a lot. Where are you? You're in new england. You're capture. Yeah My brother my brother lives in new england as a big ice Official, I'm gonna send him over to you do it Yeah, do it and I just bought a brand new pontoon boat So I need clients for the springtime because I now I'm in very big big debt I'm scared Podcasts around table the modern day love connect. I'm really scared. Yeah Chuck Chuck. I mean Dave tell him what they won Dave. Thanks again, of course I tell what they won a cheese straightener Like like you were in my session at social media marking world I'm calling out Dave. Dave. I saw him sleeping. Although Mike was talking so My it's one of those where you wake up you kind of nod up Dave told me he was going to falsely before I started that session I look up and and raise my thing the words wake up Yeah, you can find me You know what? I'm going to plug something different since we're talking new shows. My newest show Is podcast rodeo show dot com where we uh, we grab a random podcast and see how long we can hold on So learn that a podcast All right clay likes it. I think it's one of my favorite I love it. Love it. Are there voices Dave? There are uh, Alexa. Oh, I see now. I send it now. She's gonna wake up The woman in the tube is on the occasion. They're all gonna wake up.  Yeah, all lexas are all right She picks the random podcast. So oh, yeah, I like it. All right. I'll have to tune in You've never heard it. What kind of friend are you? Podcast producers don't listen to podcasts It's not true. I listen a lot of podcasts just not Dave No school podcasting is like one of my favorite original podcasts. That's how we that's how we got to this point And he's the epic the og original podcast about podcasting. It's Dave Jackson and I got him on my show It's his show now Thanks, Dave. Jonathan. Thanks again for your first round table. Sure. Yeah, thanks So my show is thin cast me dot com or all the different shows that starting to make for kids All right, best robot ever dot com And uh, and if I could just say also really quickly, um I met Dave. There's no reason why Dave would ever remember this in uh, Chicago 2016 a podcast movement And it was in july and I was telling him about my show and I was like, oh, yeah Yeah, I think I'm gonna do it. I'm talking to and he was like just do it Just go home and do it and uh, and it really Kicked me in the button. I started the next month. So I'm I'm deeply indebted to Dave for that and uh, and uh, Always had to listen to this show since before I was podcasting. So I'm excited to be here. Amazing. Well, congrats Thanks everyone. Thanks. Um If you're still podcasting after you started you're successful. That's what I think Forget the numbers Someone's listening and you're doing a great job. Yeah. All right, and you're good enough You love yourself Dog on it people on it. I know I couldn't come out though. All right. We gotta start it. We gotta start it All right, we're out of here podcast around table one 08 next time podcast around table.com subscribe Do it If you're if you're a sampler and you've made it this far We expect you to subscribe. All right wave. Goodbye. We're out of here. Goodbye. All right. Thanks everybody. See you