I'm really excited to be here and present to you our latest improvements in our tool. Our tool is Rapture. It is a framework for conducting compression shape channel attacks, such as crime, time, or breach. We have implemented it for breach. The objective of the breach attack is that an attacker can steal a secret from an HTTPS website. And let's look at the attack anatomy. Here in the middle we have a victim. It's a user browsing the internet, let's say in a coffee shop. And at the bottom, we have the attacker. We assume that the attacker has access to the victim's network, can measure things, or inject things. And at some point, the victim browsers visits an HTTP website, such as CNN, Amazon. And because it's unauthenticated, the attacker can alter the response and inject some arbitrary JavaScript code. This code runs on the victim's machine, connects back to the attacker, and opens a command and control channel. Now the attacker can use this command and control channel to issue multiple requests to another website, which we call target endpoint. Here it's the Gmail. And because of same origin policy and because the JavaScript code runs, let's say in the CNN context, the attacker cannot read the data, but he can see them passing encrypted through the network. And he can measure things. Now in order for an attacker to initiate an attack, they need to know part of the secret. Here we have a response of the Gmail body. Our secret is the Gmail token. And if you imagine the Gmail webpage, there is a search field where the user can search for something and what the victim searches, the user, is contained in the response body. So if an attacker makes a victim issue multiple queries for search, we can understand that the attacker controls the reflection and thus controls part of the response body. And by using the part of the secret the attacker already knows, they can decrypt byte by byte by byte the rest of the secret. So let's say that the attacker already knows the secret up to the capital U and wants to decrypt the four here. When the attacker puts the four in the reflection, this will result in shorter response as if he tried another letter. Now, by adaptive choosing reflections, we can have full secret recovery, but this is not as it made sound and we have some challenges. The first one is noise. And by noise, we mean part of the response which is different per request and thus we can predict this. The second is some compression methods. The attack, how it really works is that it attacks the LZ77 algorithm, compression algorithm, but most websites use GZIP which is a combination of LZ77 Huffman coding. So the way Huffman coding works can alter our predictions about the length of the response. And the final one is that as the user, as the attacker issues requests for multiple different characters to decrypt the next byte, apart from the correct byte which will result in a shorter response, there may be another one which will match with another part of the response and compress as well with the right one and we will have two possible candidate letters for the next byte to decrypt and we will not be sure which is the right one. So during the last year, we've implemented the bridge attack and our framework is the rapture. It's production level and it's open source and I will describe you the different models. It's pretty much as the attack anatomy I showed you before. The first one is the injector. It's responsible for injecting the JavaScript code to the victim's machine. What it does is that it injects the code in all the unauthenticated HTTP responses and it works by our proofing the local network and forwarding the traffic in the middle manner. It's just, we use BetterCup and it's just a series of cell scripts with the appropriate BetterCup modules to inject the code and because we inject the code in every HTTP connection, this increase robustness, even if the victim closes the tab, opens another one or if he reboots their computer, the attack still works because we inject the code in every HTTP connection. The next module is client. Client is the JavaScript code we inject. It's quite minimal, quite dumb. All it does is that it waits for work from the adversarial network and issues the requests we want to. And the reason it's dumb is that if a victim wants to reverse engineer the code that is injected in their machine, they can't really figure out what's going on. The next module is Sniffer. Sniffer reads the encrypted data passing through the network and reports them back to the backend for further analysis. Sniffer and injector need to be in the victim's network and let's say they could be in a small device such as a Raspberry Pi and all the rest could be in a different network. And now in the adversarial network we have real-time service. It facilitates the communication between client and the rest of the backend. It gets work from the backend and forwards it to the client and then informs the backend whether the client has completed the work it was given successfully or not. And the backend written in Django is the core module of our framework. It makes the analysis of the data, it stores our data and makes the decisions about the next state of our attack. Now this is the endpoint we're about to attack. As you can see in the URL endpoint the reflections are the asterisks and we can see them there. And our secret is Bebendum is just a word from the Loremape Zoom text. And the rest of the context is just numbers. I chose this to avoid noise and to have better results. And our contributions is that we have a usable open source tool and we created a web user interface and a RESTful API to make the attack easy and very practical. We believe that the community doesn't pay as much attention as they should be to such attacks. We know they're sophisticated but with this work we want to show that they could really happen in the wild. So let's move to our demo. It's a series of screenshots from an attacker from yesterday. The first page is this one. The rapture gives the opportunity to perform multiple attacks at the same time. So here the attacker can see the attacks that are already completed, the ones running or the possible victims he can initiate a new attack. And there are two different ways to initiate an attack. The first is by scanning the network. To scan the network we use Nmap. It scans the ports, finds the possible victims, stores them in our database and presents them back to the attacker so that he can choose the victim. And we imagine now that the attacker chooses a victim and he has to configure the target. And after that he just clicks attack and the attack starts. What the attack button does is that we create a specific client code for the specific victim as well as an injector module for the specific victim as well. And now the attacker waits for the victim to visit an HTTP website to inject so that the Java code is injected. Another way of initiating the attack is by adding a custom victim if the attacker already knows the victim's IP so he can just add this in the field. And of course we can add our own targets. This needs some configuration and I want to explain briefly what this is. Name is just something to recognize the target. URL is where the client will make the requests. The prefix is the part of the secret that the attacker already knows. The secret length, we need this so that our bugging knows when the attack is completed. The secret alphabet is the alphabet from which its byte of the secret is drawn from. Allying alphabet is used for block alignment pretty much like the Poodle attack does. Record cardinality is a TLS parameter and we have two methods, serial and divide and conquer. Serial is slower but gives better results whereas divide and conquer is faster but it may not result in as good as the serial method. And after a while, the attacker sees this and these are the first results. Our attack is conducted in rounds. After when a round is completed we have a new state of the attack and something more is known about the secret. For example, in the serial method, after an attack, after a round is completed we have a new byte decrypted and we may need more than one, we may need multiple batches for a rounded. What is a batch? We may not have enough data to take a decision with enough confidence about which is the next byte decrypted. So we may need to reissue the same request multiple times until we get the decision. And as you can see, the possible known prefix is D. This is what we saw in our website. It was Bibandum and we decrypted D and the prefix we already knew was Biband. And this goes on and this is how the attack evolves. This took about six minutes and you can see it's a real-time attack. And this is pretty much all I had to say. This is our repo and our website and thank you very much for your attention. So in one of your diagrams, your example victim was Gmail. Does your attack actually work against Gmail or does our noise prevent it? Oh yeah, I forgot to talk about this. It's Gmail and noise make the attack much more difficult. Maybe if we first make a static analysis of the webpage with no reflection, we get a better idea of what to predict but for the time being, the attack doesn't work on a Gmail webpage. Why don't we take, we have a break now. So let's thank Ava again. Wonderful talk.


If you've got an orange and you need to divide it into zero pieces, then you get zero pieces. If you've got an orange, you want to divide it into zero pieces. Okay, let's see. If you have an orange, you don't want to divide it into any pieces, then you just have a whole orange, right? My brain can't understand. I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. You're posing the problem in a way that it's flawed, right? The question has to make sense. That's one of the reasons sometimes there are no solutions to certain types of questions because the question is flawed, right? Supreme Leader of Twitch to MC my thanks. The tree diagram method is definitely interesting. First time I heard of that, thanks. If you divide an orange into zero pieces, doesn't that mean you have one piece? Yeah. If you divide by zero, but you're not really dividing it by zero. That English doesn't translate into mathematics, right? You're saying, I have an orange and I'm not going to break it up. That's what you're saying, but you're saying, I have an orange, I want to divide it into zero pieces, but that doesn't make sense. That doesn't translate into mathematics, right? So you have to be careful translating between one language and another language, right? So translating between English and mathematics and mathematics is a language, the translation doesn't work, okay? There are words that in English have no meaning in Armenian or Farsi or Latin or French or Mandarin or Cantonese or Russian or whatever it is and vice versa. So you have to be careful in that translation, right?


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Welcome to Ancestral Health Today. Evolutionary insights into modern health. Welcome everyone to today's episode of the Ancestral Health Today podcast. And we are honored to have Mickey Trescott and Jamie Hartman here with the AAP protocol. These two ladies are very popular, so many of you will probably know them. But I would love for you to introduce yourselves and give us each a little bit of your background history. Yeah, so I'm Mickey Trescott and I am a nutritional therapy practitioner and I'm also a holistic functional nutritionist. And I embarked on AAP myself in about 2012. So now about 12 years ago and it doesn't really seem like that long ago. Back then there was just a very theoretical basis, a few foods that perhaps people with autoimmune disease should try eliminating to see if it improved their symptoms. I was one of those people and at the time I had been a chef, I converted my career into writing recipes for people on elimination diets like the autoimmune protocol and wrote some cookbooks. And along the way there was interest from a lot of researchers that I met at the Ancestral Health Symposium, which is always one of my favorite conferences that I've ever been a part of. And there have been a lot of studies now on the autoimmune protocol and I've been fortunate to consult some of these research teams in how to embark on studying an elimination diet protocol like AAP. And most recently I have been collaborating with Angie Alt and then now Jamie Hartman on putting together a program for health care practitioners called the AAP certified coach practitioner training program. Since about 2017 we've trained about a thousand providers and these are providers all over natural conventional from health coaches to doctors. And how to implement the autoimmune protocol with their patients and their clients and I think that's the nutshell. And I am Jamie Hartman and I am, as he said, I am her partner with AAP certified coach practitioner training program. I found AAP around 2013. And I remember getting in touch with Mickey and her first cookbook, which at the very beginning was just an e-book and being so excited because here was an entire book of recipes that I actually could eat because I was doing this new thing called AAP. That was something I was doing in order to help hopefully help improve my health because I have Crohn's disease. And at that point in my life I had had multiple surgeries and had recovered from the surgeries and was trying to get kind of my life back on track and having a hard time. And so I was looking for something else that would help manage my symptoms and help me to get some semblance of having a vibrant life. And AAP was very effective for me very quickly. I had probably been very nutrient deficient for a long period of time. So it did have quite a dramatic impact on me. And I started a blog at the time to kind of keep myself motivated to keep going. I really wanted to make sure that I had something that kept me accountable and helped me to connect with other people. And gave me a little bit of a creative outlet too. At the time I was working in the textbook publishing industry. I am a former high school English teacher. And as I was working in the corporate world, there was definitely a gap in my life in terms of having that connection with people who were really cared about their health and people who also supported me in my health journey. And so creating that blog and reaching out and meeting other people was truly life changing for me. As much as the actual protocol was life changing, that community, that connection of other people that I found when I started getting on the internet and sharing about that was really life changing. And that led me eventually to become inspired by these folks to make a big career change. And went back to school, became a first in nutritional therapy practitioner, and then ultimately a health coach. And now I'm a board certified health coach. And I have a private practice and also work with Mickey on the EIP certified coach practitioner training program. And also try to build this community so that we can support people all over the world who are trying to use these tools to improve their own health and live without any own diseases as best they can. Wonderful. Mickey, can you tell us a little bit more about the history of AIP and its development, more on the scientific background and, you know, where it's been up to today? Yeah. So originally, you know, not originally originally, there's a lot of loose threads that AIP came from. But I will say the AIP community really started with Dr. Sarah Ballantyne's book, The Paleo Approach, which really formed a theoretical framework for which foods you eliminate, the theory behind why they might be good for people with autoimmune disease to eliminate, and also guidance on how long. So, you know, when I found AIP, there was a list of foods, but nobody really said, do this for 30 days, do this for 90 days. Back then, a lot of people like myself included did it for like nine months, which now we definitely don't recommend. So Sarah really put together the framework for elimination. She had a scientific basis based on other elimination diet research that had been done. And then also reintroduction. So what does it look to reintegrate foods and how might that process look like? And then also what might the lifestyle factors be? Because we know that it's not just about food, sleep, stress management, movement and connection. In about 2015, I was approached by a research team at Scripps, San Diego, Dr. Gori Conagetti, and my partner Angie and I at the time helped consult her and how to research the efficacy of the autoimmune protocol for IBD. And what was really interesting about her series of studies, because there was a intervention study, there was a survey with IBD folks, there was a microbiome analysis of Crohn's disease participants that were in the original studies. So there were three or four studies that came out of the original. What was really cool is that it then took all of that theory and guidance that Sarah had laid the groundwork for and then actually formally studied it with humans, which was just incredible. And from there, we've learned so much in actually applying that to different conditions. So now there has been a Hashimoto study. There has been an eczema and psoriasis study completed that hasn't been published yet. There's also a researcher in New Zealand who has studied the autoimmune protocol for motor arthritis. And with each condition, we're learning how to tweak and modify and more about timeline, more about foods that are tolerated by these different groups and communities, even though we all share this autoimmune background. The way that it affects our bodies is going to be different both within a disease category, but also all of those hyper-individual reactions that we have even within that. So yeah, I hope that is a good description of basically, it's amazing in 12 years that the autoimmune protocol really went from like an evidence-based theoretical protocol to now with all of these studies. And of course, we hope that there are more and larger ones, but we're really starting to drill into specific recommendations for specific groups, which is awesome because I think that those groups will be better helped, less trial and error, right? They're going to have some more guidance there. Excellent. And how about the practitioner's certification? How did that get started? So the practitioner certification came out of, you know, Angie and I had at that point, 2017, we had been practicing for five or six years on our own. And we were helping as many people as we could, but we realized that the autoimmune community, the burden of autoimmune disease, how many people just have it and need coaching is extreme. And the autoimmune protocol, while it is not overly complicated, there are a lot of misunderstandings between, you know, especially with the public and how it is applied. For instance, some people believe that you do the elimination diet forever. That is something that, you know, even with such a large and diverse blogging community, the public still thinks that, oh, I should never eat X, Y or Z ever again. And so we realized that the best way to make an impact was going to be to train providers who are already qualified in whatever capacity. So it might be a fitness instructor. It might be a doctor. It might be naturopath. It might be an herbalist. And it might be a therapist, you know, people who understand that autoimmune disease has so many nuances in helping people heal. So we wanted to create something that anyone could apply to their practice and then be able to help people with autoimmune disease basically integrate that with within whatever scope they already have. So, you know, right off the bat, it was very successful because I think a lot of providers are aware of how powerful diet and lifestyle is and their patients and their clients really want to know what can I do. You know, autoimmune disease is something that there is just not a lot of good treatments. It's not very understood. So patients that have autoimmune disease are the rare patients that go to their doctors and say, what can I do, you know, if I could do anything, I would do it. And so the practitioners really fill that need in helping people implement these these protocols that are not overly complex, but just having someone that understands the house and the wise and how to navigate some of the barriers is really powerful. And really important. Absolutely. And JB, how did you come to where you are today and partnering with Mickey on the certification program? Yeah, so as I was mentioning before, my background is in education. So when I left teaching and then left the corporate world, I, I was definitely bringing with me that experience right away in working with my clients trying to be the educator as well as being their nutritional therapy practitioner and then later their health coach, but to actually help them to understand and to learn more about what's happening in their body and why these things are working for them. So that was something that I'd already had in me to begin with. And I was a member of the very first cohort of coaches who were trained in 2017. And then the very next session that Mickey and Angie ran they asked if I would be their like kind of assistant teacher. So I was more than happy to do that. So I started right away working with the groups as they came through helping to coordinate the different discussion groups and the things that were happening within our community. And I really loved it. And so when Angie decided that she wanted to step down and go into a different direction and asked if I would be willing to come step in and to her shoes and take over that half of the partnership with Mickey. I was thrilled that it was able to, that we were able to work that out and bring together all those disparate pieces of my kind of story, the education part, the experience part and, and help, you know, to bring this program to an even greater level of educational Just kind of, I don't know what what really the right word is, but really having it be at that next level of being something truly about teaching the future leaders teaching the teachers, the people who will then be bringing this into the future. I would say that if I had to kind of define my mission and everything I do in the AIP world, it's that I hope that one day I'll be very old when this happens but that I will retire because I'm just not needed anymore because AIP is just part of the mainstream way of helping people who get diagnosed with an autoimmune disease to actually live well and manage their symptoms and have a better quality of life. And we don't even need to define it because it's just the common knowledge and the mainstream way of advising folks. That's what I hope happens someday. I'm sure it's going to be a while but someday. That's great. So can we go a little deeper into what the autoimmune protocol entails and dispel some of the myths as well. Let's do it. All right, so I'll start by talking about how about the elimination and then Jamie you want to talk about reintroduction. Sounds good. So the elimination phase of autoimmune protocol is when people are removing the food. So like I said before it's the thing that most people think AIP is just this piece. But actually there is a part that comes before which is transition and there's a part that comes after which is reintroduction. So it's essentially three parts. So the elimination phase of what we call now which is a new update as of 2024. We have two versions of the elimination phase and that's core AIP and modified AIP. And so for anyone listening who has been familiar with the autoimmune protocol. Thanks, Mickey. The reintroduction phase is truly where the magic happens because the ultimate goal of AIP is to arrive at a diet that is personalized to you as an individual that honors what you like to eat.  What is going to make you happy because eating is a pleasurable experience or it should be and helps you to connect with your community. And it should be a diet. This personalized diet that you ultimately arrive at should be the least restrictive that you need to follow. You shouldn't be restricting more than is necessary. You shouldn't be avoiding foods that you don't need to avoid. And you should have this freedom to live the life that you want within. Understanding more about what foods actually work best for you so that you can make those appropriate choices and achieve all the elements of a healthy life. Which is not just reducing your symptoms and having good blood work but actually really thriving and enjoying your life and being part of your community and part of your family in all the ways that matter. So that's my soapbox for why reintroductions are so important. And the key thing to remember when clients start reintroductions is that it's not the end of anything. It's a continuation that if you do reintroductions in a really mindful and thoughtful way your trajectory of healing and improving your symptoms and increasing your quality of life will continue. It's not like once you start reintroductions that's as good as you're ever going to feel. I am absolutely a testament to that. I know a lot of my improvement in how I felt has happened after I've added foods back into my diet because many other things are at play as well. So when clients or when individuals do the reintroduction process whether they're doing it on their own or they're a client of a coach. The key thing that they're going to be doing is looking at both whether they have an immediate reaction or a short kind of near term reaction. Something that happens within the first couple hours or the first day. But also looking for whether or not they have a delayed reaction to a food. And that's where working with an EIP certified coach can be really helpful because they are really well trained to help guide folks through that. But for the people that are doing it on their own I just want to make sure that we've really reiterated the point that those delayed reactions while they're not something to be afraid of they are a very real thing that can happen. So that's why when you talk with us about you know why how do you do reintroductions I can say you need to be doing it mindfully. You need to be really focusing on one food at a time tracking what's happening over the course of the next few days after you try that food so that you can begin to understand how that particular food that you had been avoiding may or may not work well for you as you continue through the rest of your life and start to expand your diet and bring it back in. Great. Is there anything else that people can do while doing AIP to maximize their healing to potentially reintroduce the greatest number of foods as soon as possible. What do you advise people to do in that interim? Yeah so we always recommend that in addition to the dietary side of AIP that people pay attention to for lifestyle areas sleep stress management movement and connection. And you know depending on the person those areas can have an outsize impact on their entire journey so for instance someone who is having sleep disturbances and isn't sleeping through the night. Sometimes they can do a lot of work on their diet but if they don't really pay attention to the reasons why maybe they aren't sleeping they don't recognize that healing as easily because their body just doesn't have that restorative time. Similarly someone could have a extremely stressful job or something that has happened to them that they can't manage that stressor and then that is impacting them so it's important to think of everything. And one thing that is really important in the AIP community is just that a lot of autoimmune diseases need quality medical care and you know of course like we have a hard time accessing and affording medical care in the United States at least. But it is worth mentioning that sometimes a combination of caring with the diet and then also integrating medical care whether that is like for me I have Hashimoto's taking thyroid hormone for somebody with IBD it might actually be taking medications or using surgery. To manage or help with whatever physical situation that they're experiencing as a result of their disease and it is appropriate to combine that if that's cleared by their medical team you know so that is also something that people should consider and. You know a lot of people these days really don't want to be taking medications obviously nobody wants to have surgery if you don't have to. But the reality of autoimmune diseases that it is serious and sometimes needs a collaborative approach so I just want to say that to encourage anyone who is listening. You know it's not a failure to have to combine it's actually really smart because what you're using is all of the tools in the toolbox to live a healthy vibrant life and that's what we're after right where there's no gold stars for like doing it the natural way like. It's all about feeling good and being able to live your life the way that you want to so. Yeah well said are there any particular autoimmune conditions that you see the most success with. So with the studies you know IBD is definitely the results reflected in the study for those that aren't familiar they did a six week transition to the autoimmune protocol and then a four week maintenance phase. In patients with Crohn's and ulcerative colitis and by week six which is where they weren't even in the fall elimination phase yet 73% of those patients reached clinical remission and then they all maintained it for the duration of the study. And so you know that result of course that's just one study you know we can't make too many assumptions from that but I would say that that definitely lines up with what I've seen in coaching people with IBD. They tend to turn around pretty quickly now Hashimoto's and it's great we also have a Hashimoto's study I am a Hashimoto's patient I work primarily with people with Hashimoto's it's the most common autoimmune disease. And I think numbers are going to start going up just because so many people struggle with hypothyroidism they don't know that the cause is actually autoimmune which is Hashimoto's. But we do have a study with Hashimoto's and if you read the results of the study. There's a lot of improvement in quality of life that was the primary marker for the study but you know there's not a lot of changes in the thyroid hormone and so. You can see the differences between you know like IBD is a condition that is characterized by clinical remission Hashimoto's is not you know Hashimoto's is characterized by symptoms and symptom management and so. You know it's great news that people reported that they felt so much better but those results can be interpreted a lot of different ways. You know and so my experience with working with people with a variety of autoimmune diseases is just that there are some that that tend to turn around quickly like IBD. There are some that are a little more nebulous like Hashimoto's mostly because I think people with Hashimoto's have a hard time identifying even you know what what their symptom could be caused by if it's their lack of thyroid hormone if it's a stress in their life. You know there's a lot of complicating factors because there's so much overlap and those symptoms are very nonspecific and then there are even conditions like you know skin conditions like what I've learned about the skin is an organ. It's a very low priority organ of the body it's very large it needs a lot of nutrients. So I'm really excited for the eczema and psoriasis study to be published because it will be cool to be able to compare some of the data. But what I've learned just working one on one with people is that sometimes they need a lot longer just in the entire protocol not just the elimination and also a lot of attention to nutrients just because of how many nutrients the skin needs. So I hope I've answered that question you know a lot of people with a really rare autoimmune conditions are very concerned that because they've never heard of somebody using a IP for their specific condition that it might not work. And I always say you know you never know until you try if if anything you're going to spend a month or three months eating some really good home cooked food you're going to learn some really good skills in the kitchen. And if you happen to improve you know your pain or your symptoms then that's awesome you learn something right. So I always encourage people to try it even if it's they don't have one of those really common autoimmune conditions where there's so many stories out there. Yeah absolutely. So as we are a global community how do you factor in cultural differences when it comes to a IP. Yeah that's that's a great question and one that I will be completely honest with you and say that I think we've missed the boat on for a while. When when core a IP elimination was the only list that we had and we just handed that out to people and said cut out all these foods. I don't know that that we were doing a very good job. I know we weren't doing a very good job of recognizing that we're cutting out foods that are very meaningful to many people in that culture. We're saying no grains so no corn no rice we're saying no legumes we're saying eat all these very expensive and hard to find things. And there was also a lot of conversation in early days you know in a IP and in the whole ancestral health movement as a whole about you know having highest of quality in your meats and wild caught this and things that that were maybe very easy for some people to get but not not for others depending on where you live or what kind of resources you have. So that's one of the things that really drove us very seriously and we were looking at what can we find in the evidence and in our experience and in the research as well as what we know that we can do when we create modified a IP to address some of these problems so that it can be something more easily implemented by people who might not have the access to. Certain foods or who may be in a living in a place where a staple food is something that we're asking them to avoid for really not a great reason or any evidence that it must be avoided. So the inclusion of many of these foods in the modified IP option is driven in part by that desire to have something that's more accessible to a broader range of cultures throughout the world as well as here in the United States. And that's not to say that that that is you know it is a you know we're not resting on that we know there's still a lot more work to be done in terms of reaching more people and helping more people integrate these principles into their life so that they can to achieve the benefit and the healing that we know is possible. Great. So how would somebody who is not able to work with a coach because of resources be able to be able to determine whether they need to go to a modified IP or core AP. So we always recommend or actually now I shouldn't say always we've always recommended core IP as a starting place for everyone and now we recommend modified IP for everyone so actually it doesn't have to be somebody that has a lack of resources. It can be everyone and the reason being that I have worked with so many people I know Jamie's worked with so many people and we get this reported all the time because when we surveyed our IP certified coaches for what they're seeing in their practices but often we're modifying thought I mean protocol before the introduction of this officially modified IP and we're seeing great results so with people that come to me and you know for whatever reason they can't do that core IP protocol. I will have them include rice maybe I'll have them include legumes they will start with a hair down list of eliminations and sometimes their symptoms resolve and what that means is that they don't need to. Remove all those foods and that's great information first because then that person is spared all of the work and the expense and the frustration you know it's there's some social isolation. And everything that comes with doing a really restricted protocol which you know the cost benefit for someone who is sick. You know and doesn't have a lot of answers doesn't have a lot of options maybe they're really motivated and they can make it happen but a lot of people are kind of more in the middle. They want to see which changes what minimal changes are going to get them the best results and for that reason we recommend that people start with modified and we're really excited about modified because. I think a lot of more people are going to be able to identify some of those really big food triggers that we know are out there without all of the work of all of the extra eliminations. Yeah wonderful I know I have two clients that I can remember that would not do the protocol because they had to eliminate rice and beans. So that's just anecdotally not sure how many people fall into that category but it's it's definitely an important aspect of cultural considerations that you know also influences health the ability to share and enjoy meals with family. Absolutely. Great so what are some of the myths that you want to see dispelled from what people's perceptions of AIP is. That's a that's a great question we could probably take the next like three hours to talk about these so I'll just go with what comes to my mind first of all and that is the myth that if you screw up you have to start over. I hear that all the time I see that all the time like somebody is like you know oh I accidentally you know eat something that I realize now is off plan do I have to start over. And they're really that's a myth there is no starting over I mean yes we do say try to do the elimination phase for 30 straight days without deviations. But what happens if you do have a deviation do you have to start counting over 30 days does your body know how to count days and there's some magical thing that happens on the 30th day. No it does not. So that's the biggest myth I think that pops into my head just the idea that somehow you've undone everything good that you did leading up to that because there was one slip up so. That's one that I can think of Mickey what's another myth you'd want to dispel. The big one that I'd like to dispel is just that avoiding foods that don't cause you in a wrap a reaction isn't prevention.  And then they say well it's eliminated in core IP and I want to be a good auto immune person and I just want to eat the core IP because I think that's what's going to be best for me long term. That's that's not a thing so dietary expansion actually is what helps people heal long term. So people should absolutely be removing foods that they know do not make them feel well or that they are sensitive to. But all the other foods you know if especially these really nutrient dense foods or even you know for for like athletes so rice is not the most nutrient dense food. But for someone who is very athletic and burning a lot of calories and needing to replenish their carb stores. You know rice is really important breastfeeding moms people who are underweight you know that that is absolutely important for them. You know so there are you know some arguments for just in those reintroducing you know eggs are so nutrient dense even like the nightshade family vegetables. I mean I wish I could eat tomatoes but and I'm so happy for people that can because they they are so colorful they have so many wonderful nutrients in them. And so there's no such thing as avoiding them just for prevention if they don't affect you. We definitely encourage people enjoying and reintroducing those nutrient dense foods if they tolerate them. Which is a great example of why it's so important to do all three of the stages in AIP you know the transition of course to get yourself ready so you can be successful in elimination and then reintroductions. Yeah so tell me a little bit more for people who are unfamiliar with AIP what those time frames are so you said six weeks for the preparation and then how about the elimination phase. And then doing the reintroductions. So the the the six weeks of the transition phase is just a one guideline. It really can be as as much time as the individual person needs. You know I've had clients who needed a little time but maybe it was more like a week along a long weekend into a week or two. I've had clients who really honestly needed like eight weeks to get ready for it to to gradually prepare. And there's a lot of ways that you can do that transition as well. I've had clients who were you know really focused on just trying to figure out how am I going to have like you know breakfast that's the hardest thing for me. And so the first part of their transition was to challenge themselves to have a week or two of just eating AIP compliant breakfast. And then whatever happened the rest of the day was whatever happened. And then they started to think now let me add another meal. Let me try to have lunch now. And then finally they tackle dinner and by the time they got to doing that they you know felt really ready for it. So transition can be whatever it is that you need. I think you want to obviously have a time frame in mind. You don't want to just sort of be like I'm transitioning forever and ever and ever without you know some date that you're planning to be fully transitioned. But it can be really suited to the individual's needs. Then in the elimination phase our standard guidance is that you want to do the elimination phase for 30 to 90 days. And you should have some improvement some measurable improvement over your baseline. And that would indicate that you're ready to start reintroductions. If you get to 90 days and you still can't really tell that something is improving. You're symptom free. You don't have to be in quote unquote remission. But you should have some sense that it is improved. I am improving. There's something measurable something clear to me that I can point you over my baseline. If you get to 90 days or even before then where you and that isn't happening. It's now time to do some troubleshooting and to figure out what else could possibly be going on. And that troubleshooting could be something they do on their on their own as an individual looking at you know their lifestyle. Factors looking at you know whether am I eating a nutrient dense version of AIP. Am I getting all my needs met that way. Or it might be actually working with a practitioner to do some testing because maybe there's like a gut infection going on. Maybe there's something else at play that needs to be dealt with and addressed. What is some of the foods that are most difficult for clients to reintroduce if you can each tell me about your experience. Yeah I mean gluten is always the number one for people with autoimmune disease and it's the only one that I actually recommend that anyone with an autoimmune disease just avoid. Other than that everything is fair game for reintroduction and some of those foods are really surprising especially to some of the people in the ancestral health community. But things you know like rice again you know has been controversial over the years. But you know rice can be a great addition for some people and actually it's a food that not a lot of people are that sensitive to. I know they're out there so don't come after me but it tends to be pretty tolerable. Tomatoes you know nightshades but tomatoes specifically peppers eggplants you know they're especially with certain autoimmune conditions. Any type of arthritis so like rheumatoid arthritis connected tissue diseases but then also conditions like Hashimoto's that have joint pain as a symptom. Nightshades are a common trigger. And then other than those two I would say dairy is probably the next highest one although there is a spectrum of tolerance that I've noticed in dairy. So you know a lot of people can tolerate ghee and butter and sometimes even you know a nice yogurt or something maybe certain cheeses. But other people have trouble with all dairy or you know certain forms of dairy so so there's a lot to test in the reintroductions when it comes to dairy. But I will say that it is one that a lot of people are sensitive to any others Jamie. Yeah I would just I was going to reiterate dairy and when we think about conditions specific conditions that's one that a lot of a lot of the folks that have the condition like I have that's directly impacting the gut will often have trouble with whether it's just a lactose issue that they can't get past or if it's dairy overall that they're sensitive to. And they're definitely has a lot of range with dairy there's not necessarily an all or nothing kind of situation. Some people can tolerate certain forms or from certain animals but not others. And so it's definitely one where you know a lot of personalized nuance and testing can really kind of help you figure that out over the long run. And then I think the other big thing is that whole sort of big category of the food additives things that come into play in ultra processed foods in particular. I mean we kind of all know those are not the best thing for anybody to be eating is a significant part of your diet. But particularly people with autoimmune diseases and particularly people with autoimmune diseases where there's some impact with their gut directly will have some trouble with things that maybe are you know not thought to be just really neutral safe things like xanthan gum for example can actually really be a problem for some people with with gut issues and may not be something that they're ever able to reintroduce comfortably. Yeah the additives also with mass cell activation is a big issue which is a big part of the connective tissue disorders. That's a big prevalent one that I see. So what is the future of AIP what do you guys have planned for how the organization will develop the protocol the reach. What's in the future. Yeah so I'm really excited because I think you know we talking about where AIP has come from this theoretical basis to the studies that have happened now you know there's five or six of them. We're hoping that there is continued interest from different research teams to do some bigger studies maybe some multi center studies get some more participants maybe study some different conditions. That's something that I'm really personally excited about so if anybody's listening and your researcher and you want to put something together shoot me an email. I would love to chat but also teaching the practitioners is really expanding the reach of the autoimmune protocol just outside of this you know like ancestral health bubble where it was kind of people in the know. I think we definitely moved outside that but now it's reaching an international audience and so we're seeing a lot of coaches from around the world and working in different languages and with different cultures and they're adapting the materials that were providing them. And into their languages and you know their their cultural foods I love some of the foods were always asked about we have to do a lot of research because sometimes you know we're completely unfamiliar but somebody you know in Africa or Central America has a source of that food is very important to the people they work with and they need the verdict you know. And so we're just so excited about that and you know every place that a IP starts to take root it's kind of like that 1012 years ago where for us we were just so excited to find something that works. I'm noticing that energy from the coaches that that live in those parts of the world and them recognizing also the head start that they have because of all this groundwork that has been done and what started with the study so I'm excited for a lot of that to continue and I'm excited for a lot of these international coaches and doctors and researchers to kind of take up the torch and and you know use the automated protocol in the way that you know they they feel lead and and hopefully give us some feedback and what they're seeing it's very exciting. Wonderful. So how would somebody become a trained AP print practitioner and especially people from other parts of the world and is there financial assistance available for people who cannot afford the certification. Yeah so if anybody is interested in becoming an AP certified coach they need to just go to aipcertified.com. And then from there they can learn all about our program and when our upcoming dates are for when the next training will be and join the interest list from there if they're hearing this at a time when we aren't currently offering the program. And there we do have right now a scholarship in place that we've been doing for the last few years now that is specifically for our BIPOC outreach so BIPOC Black Indigenous people of color and that is something that we're very very excited to be able to continue to offer and perhaps I know there's listeners here who are now going to go and check it out would be happy to talk with them further about that. Wonderful and how about people who are interested in doing the protocol themselves what's the best way to get a hold of a coach if they have the means and what's the best way to get started on their own if they don't. Awesome so if you're looking for a coach go to aipcertified.com the same website if you are interested in becoming a coach because we have two pathways and one of them is the directory where you can search all over the world and types of practitioners practitioners in different languages and there are hundreds of coaches on there they all have these beautiful new profiles and the directory that we're very proud of you can learn so much about them their specialties and what they can offer you. If you'd like to try aip without a coach you don't have to have one to try it and that's something that is very close to our hearts with you know the blogs and the website resources that we've done. My website is autoimmune wellness dot com and it has all of the aip protocol instructions and food lists and recipes for free for everyone to use and there there's also translation so. In the top right hand corner if you click the drop down it will translate any pages if you or someone in your your friends your family don't speak English they can access that. For free at any time and then Jamie also runs the aip summit and that's at aip summit dot com there's monthly webinars that are free for the public with aip certified coach presenters so you can learn about various topics. And then in collaboration with aip summit there's also the aip BIPOC network and so if you get plugged into aip summit I'll let Jamie clarify if that's correct you will get access to all of those presentations from both groups. Yeah yeah the aip summit is sort of our umbrella for hosting all these live kind of things that are happening including the the aip BIPOC roundtables which are happening monthly. And then the webinars that we're doing that are monthly as well and then once a year we have a big annual summit hence the name of it. It's like one week of you know getting everybody together and sharing all of our best practices so it's a really great way for somebody to maybe they've gone to autoimmune wellness dot com they've gotten their you know quick start guide their information and some recipes and all they want to get plugged into what are some coaches saying and doing so the other elements of it. The aip summit is again a free way for them to get some extra support and also a way to meet some coaches who may be down the road they do want to work with and so it's a great way to kind of sample the offerings as it were. Wonderful a lot of great resources yes thank you for doing that for the community it is very close to my heart that a lot of those resources are free because a lot of people you know it's a barrier to entry for a lot of people. Anything else we didn't cover that you would like to share. I think we covered it all. I think some great questions. Wonderful ladies thank you so much for joining us and thank you for the great work that you're doing for the community and people can find you in the websites that you listed and will also list them on the show notes. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for joining us on this episode of ancestral health today. We hope you enjoyed our discussion on how evolutionary insights can inform modern health practices. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast to catch future episodes.