Good morning. Good afternoon and good evening to everyone. Welcome to the Center for Global Enterprise Expert Connect series. Today we will be discussing the global enterprise where to now. We are very pleased that you are able to join us today from all over the world and this Expert Connect we're doing this morning is obviously on a very timely topic and we are very fortunate to be able to have this conversation. The Expert Connect as you know is being sponsored by the Center for Global Enterprise Global Scholars Program. To give you an update on the Global Scholars Program it comprises 171 schools from 92 different countries. This Expert Connect on the Global Enterprise we have the opportunity over the next 90 minutes to speak with Sam Pomazano, Chairman of the Center for Global Enterprise and the former Chairman, CEO and President of IBM. Sam welcome and thank you for being with us. I want to thank the schools for joining us. University of Surrey Business School in the UK, Ayesa Business School in Spain, University of Stellenbosch Business School in South Africa, Indian School of Business in India, ESEC Business School in France and Boston University Questions School of Business in the US. We received your questions and what we will do is after some opening remarks by Sam I will call on you to ask a question and we will do it in this order. Surrey, Stellenbosch, Ayesa, Indian School of Business, ESEC and Questrum. Surrey I will come to you first so please prepare your question to ask Sam, then Stellenbosch and in the order I just discussed. We will go through a second round of questions and we will try and do as many questions as possible. Also as I come to you please introduce yourself and your school. So with that let's begin. Ira thank you very much and everyone thank you for joining us today. I think Ira is correct this is a timely time to have these discussions but I thought the best way to frame the discussion is to go back to the early part of the 21st century and at that point in time this is prior to the financial crisis. Many things around global economies, global integration, global companies were certainly performing well at their hiatus if you look back in time and the world was continued to advance in their integration economically. You know hundreds of millions of people were entering the middle of class, many countries were engaging in world trade, therefore they were elevating their standards of societal practice as well as employment standards around the world and that's when I penned this article and that was in 2006. I thought what I would do is I described which we now refer to as the globally integrated enterprise which is the future corporate model that was going to be evolving in this environment as we saw at that point in time. I thought I would just take a second and read from the publication which is called Foreign Affairs which you can obviously look up but you can see that I'm not recreating history here. I go back to the last two paragraphs that I wrote and this is in 2006. I think you'll find it interesting in light of what's going on today and I'm quoting, I'm reading now. The alternative to global integration is not appealing. Left unaddressed, this content with globalization will only grow. People might ultimately choose to let governments that impose strict regulations on trade or labor perhaps of a highly prejudiced sort. Worse, they might gravitate toward more extreme forms of nationalism, xenophobia and penmodernism. The shift from the multinational corporation to globally integrated enterprises provides an opportunity to advance both business growth and societal progress but it raises issues that are too big and too interconnected for business alone or government alone to solve. The globally integrated enterprise is a promising new actor on the world stage. Now leaders in business, government education and all of civil society must learn about its emerging dynamics and help it mature in ways that will contribute to social, economic and human progress around the planet. That was in 2006. Clearly I think the prescription wasn't taken or the dosage wasn't taken at the right amount which was collaboration between business and governments and society and educational institutions to prepare people in those areas for what opportunities were going to exist in the future. That leads to where we find ourselves today and this was actually you could forecast this. Groups were being left behind and that only accelerated and that acceleration of these groups that were being left behind has caused the reaction that we have today that we see on the political stage. It started in the UK with Brexit. It's continued with the US election. We have two elections coming up in Europe that are very prominent both France and Germany and as we say we'll see you know how this continues to progress. I think the answer is not necessarily everybody kind of building walls or becoming more regional in their structures. I mean from the perspective of economic growth and prosperity and advancement of society I will argue that that's not the appropriate approach. However I think we do need to understand these divergent factors that are occurring. One is the one I've alluded to which is the fact that governments are responding in very predictable ways because they're reacting to the pressures of their populace. I mean that's actually what's occurring. That's what politicians do. At the same time that's one trend. It's one area of force that's put it that way of nature. The other area is what's happening with technology and technology actually is is really driving more integration. It's clear in social media kinds of companies. You think about whether that's Facebook or WeChat or Instagram would have you all those various types Twitter all these various types of media platforms communications platforms really are integrating the world technologically in the corporate sense. You look at these business models that many refer to as platform business models where you have a common back office i.e. Uber, Lyft, Airbnb, cart, etc. Amazon, Alibaba would have you and you have this common back office that by definition is global because it's the same everywhere in the world which we were arguing back in 2006 corporations should do which is create a common back office completely different local operations and go to market and connect with society but the back office should be global common and scalable. Now the technologies of cloud and big data all that weren't there at that point in time but if you do that today this is what you would do and that's what you see in these platform based companies that's their back office is their support systems the reservation to get the car they get the room to go order your groceries you know whatever it happens today so you have two factors in the technology one is this fact that the world is interconnected ideas are being shared we can talk about the quality of those ideas we can talk about whether the factory accurate would have you but the fact of the matter is information is disseminating very very quickly and and almost in many ways there it goes so fast it's almost out of control the other side of it the business model quite honestly it's a technology that now is enabling global entities because you didn't you don't have to be large and scalable like an IBM or an Exxon mobile let's say or a large Chinese CNUC a big petroleum company a natural resources company in China we go on around the world or Siemens in Germany etc you could do this as a startup you don't have to wait to be a hundred years old like IBM to decide to tackle this task you can do this day one and that's what you see happening in these models of all in the business platforms so you have these divergent forces and this for it because they diverge they're causing tensions and that's where we find ourselves today we have these tension points now people want to quickly declare that global business is dead it's over corporations are done it's done it's over everything's gonna happen within your borders we're gonna build walls around everything every country's gonna have a wall trust me it never happens that way it won't happen this time that way I mean it's hard to predict what's going to happen which causes a lot of uncertainty which causes crazy predictions to occur but fundamentally we'll have to see how this thing actually shakes out we will make the argument that the most progressive way to advance for society and that's a global point of view of society not one nation's view of society is to keep the world connected it's better for safety of all fewer wars if you like less terrorism if you keep the world connected a good way to connect the world is economically to commerce because if you have shared interests that are economic in nature you won't blow up your own properties for example I mean if you're a foreign entity and you own property in the United States you're not going to blow it up you know right nor nor would any other country blow up their own assets I mean I think it's a crude example I now admit that but you know I used to when I lived in Tokyo we would go to Hawaii when you looked at all the property the room by the Japanese you certainly didn't think it would blow it up in the future since they owned all the property you know they probably would blow themselves up I mean very simple example but economic integration is actually good from a I'll call it a geopolitical stability perspective it's also good because it lifts people it lifts them economically it leaves it lifts them intellectually it improves their quality of life healthcare housing retail all those things improve that's a good thing there's nothing wrong with that however the challenge associated with that you cannot leave people behind so I'll make the same argument today as I made back in 2006 the solution here is that governments educational institutions and business people with economic interest have to come together and solve this problem if it doesn't get solved what we see today I believe will only worsen if it does get solved I believe we'll have a much brighter future so with that I'll open up the questions and I'm right pass it back to you okay great well let me follow up on that so we've got these two opposing forces apparently there's been some problems like all the schools have been struggling we've been on the chat here and unfortunately we could maybe get maybe 60% okay do you want me to ask a question maybe get quickly summarize and lead to the question basically what I said in the beginning was that we forecasted in an article on globally integrated enterprise and foreign affairs in 2006 that if business government and academia did not come together we'd have the circumstances we have today and that's we find ourselves 10 years later with the regionalization is a more populist form of elections or campaigning let's say then we've had historically so that's kind of where we are and there's two factors it for a play here one is that political factor of play and then there's the technology factor of play which is globally scaling and integrating everyone whether that's social media platform business models together and governments are struggling with this issue of globalization and people left behind and trying to come up with strategies that will serve their societies but maybe not be the try-in and continue our question yeah and I'll ask well I was gonna ask Sam about these opposing forces so we have social and economic political and economic issues that are retrenching from openness right and at the same time we have technology that is bringing us all together in many different ways as you cite in your article entertainment social media it's actually phenomenal the way things are changing in the way we're able to link with each other so what are the the challenges or are for for government for business managers and and also I guess what advice would you have for schools as the grapple with this this issue well I think whether it's Ira whether it's business or whether it's government it depends where you are I mean if you are part of a mature society where you feel that you've been left behind by globalization or businesses that are regional who have been left behind you'll have a view however if you're a benefactor of it an emerging geography who engaged in the world economy either through skilled people or through natural resources they were the two primary vectors of the past but you have a different view what you see happening live what's the example president Trump talks about being much more regional America first president Xi of China talks about becoming a global leader this changed in 30 days 30 days the world would flip upside down so I start with where you positioned and the answer quote honestly of from an economic perspective and from a societal perspective is not to retrench the answer is to solve the problem right now we get back to business because you solve the problem because retrenchment doesn't solve the problem it might delay or slow down the inevitable the inevitable will occur because if you have a low growth environment your wages will deteriorate your infrastructure will collapse I mean this is what happens right in the past would lead the war so we don't have wars anymore hopefully right so it causes other kinds of problems now from the business perspective again I think you have the short term and then the long term I'll start with the long term the long term there are some inevitable factors that you cannot avoid to miss and what I mean by that is there's massive growth of the middle class around the world so if you're in northern Europe or in the United Europe company United States or northern North America you cannot miss that trend because you need the growth so you have to pursue that trend oh that's population demographic expansion the other side of it is technology when you see these business models whether that be the media industry or retail of Amazon or Alibaba or transportation with Uber or Lyft or with lodging Airbnb etc and all the alternatives around the world basically you have to understand that one is let's say you're a start-up tremendous opportunity opportunity everywhere go create your African version or go create your Asian version Indian version whatever it happens to be it's a wonderful opportunity if you're an entrepreneur in those parts of the world however if you are in the lodging business or the taxi business or the retail business right you have a different set of challenges and that is how do you take advantage of these technologies to advance your business model so that you're not disintermediated by the emerging technologies so that again I think the way you have to think about is where are you positioned where where are you as a society or a country and where are you as a business and that dictates the strategy you have to establish there's not one for all as you look at this but at the end of the day these forces that are driving change it's more technology than it is about low-cost labor it's more about productivity and advancement than it is about the cost of the natural resource I mean why are natural resources cost coming down because of technology called fracking why is why are automotive why are production facilities today so much more advanced because it's technologies like 3d printing in robotics it's somewhat to do with labor cost but that's like 15 or 20% of it 80% is driven off of technological innovation and that's what you need to understand as a student or a future business leaders how do you take advantage of that or even as a government leader how do you understand that and encourage that so you can prepare your society to be the most competitive in these environments over Sam over the last 10 years of the decade since you wrote the the first article and basically coined the phrase globally integrated enterprise we've seen demand shift from supply side to basically consumer or basically the man the man side world how is that challenging businesses today and changing the way they operate well the challenge for business is especially if you're producing a good and a service which most people do one or the other right it is a huge challenge to your supply chain supply chain I mean this sounds like a very mundane topic but in the business schools you learn about operations and supply chains might have one child who went to get his MBA I have another one in Boston getting his MBA I look at their curriculum what they call operations it's fundamentally supply chain kind of a mundane topic but it's about if your company is 50 to 60 percent of your cost of your supply chain and if you get it wrong like in your consumer electronics and you get it wrong you have too much inventory or if you're in retail you have too much inventory which means you have to sell it at any price which guarantees you a bad start to the following year I guarantee nothing you can do and that was back to the supply side model of supply chain to your point Ira there were all these estimates they weren't based on individual consumer taste they were based on macroeconomic factors and your success in the past you built these models you had an industry estimate I was in the PC business I ran PCs for IBM this is more consumer than enterprise because enterprise was more predictable you'd have your share percentage you'd have industry growth estimates you'd have macroeconomic factors per capita income for regions of the world that would lead to how many PCs you would build so we're gonna build 10 million PCs well if we only sold 8 million you're writing 2 million of them off right because every six months is a new product cycle that's the supply side now you can connect to analytics to these actual shifts in consumer sentiment and taste right you can adjust based upon demand you can digitalize your supply chain if you are in fashion let's say you literally could digitalize or do virtual reality visualization techniques create the next cycle of product your new line for the spring fashion you can connect that line all the way through to your manufacturing facilities through your suppliers and you know immediately what your lead times are going to be what your costs will be what the price should be and you're closer to I won't say it's perfect but you're closer to the sentiment that's shifting these trends that move every cycle so that's the difference today you talked earlier about the end of globalization we've seen a lot of stories about global companies and retrenchment and I'd like to explore a little bit more why you don't think that will be the factor or that will happen as the pundits are predicting and the political and social movements we're seeing today to close borders and to retrench from trade agreements well first of all we really don't know what these guys are going to do the governments I mean we know its speeches they've given that doesn't mean that's what they're going to do I've been around this thing a very long time okay and I just spent five hours in that big house in Washington Monday of this week okay so you have to separate yourself from the speech to the reality Brexits doesn't really mean the UK doesn't get connected for trade around the world now we'll see how it gets implemented I mean I don't think anyone really knows at this point in time I don't think anyone really knows in the United States what's going to happen in Congress I mean the president can't dictate the changes that he can give in a speech I'd like to his predecessors all the aspiration would like to be kings but the United States is not a monarchy it's a constitutional democracy there's three branches of government so you have to watch how it plays out so my first reaction is the short term which I talked about I really spent more time on the long term the short term I believe if you're in business and I advise businesses today if I was still running the business it would be the same advice for me is just keep your powder dry don't react right don't reallocate your assets in your supply chain that's a massive capital movement it takes time to do those sorts of things on your example of supply move a factory build the factory that's yours right you're moving capital and facilities don't do it let's see what really happens when they don't sign up for these global trade deals but they replace it with bilaterals bilateral trade agreements in many cases that's better I mean my experience from a business perspective in many of the relationships that were established bilateral was better for business versus these global multilaterals I mean that was just a historic fact so you know you can't say well because it's going to be bilateral versus this big thing I wouldn't react to that I mean I'd like to see what actually happens versus what people were saying now I mean who knows I mean it's too much uncertainty in the short term is my only point of view so I would stay quiet I wouldn't make proclamations like people have made I think business shouldn't make proclamations unless they're constructive once I don't think business should make commitments for a soundbite on television or Twitter feed that they really aren't going to live up to I mean no different than a politician shouldn't nor should a business leader I mean they should be committing things that they are certainly going to live up to not for the PR or marketing purposes that's different I don't believe that you could come up with some of these statements that are being made in 60 days on the commitments that are being made unless they were already planned in the budget cycle these large companies are budget cycles as you know run annually or bi-annually right the fact that in eight days they'd have a new plan I'm a little cynical about that sorry are you ready to ask a question that's all right and I thought I believe business and governments must have a shared objective they must bring people together on a global and national level to create a collaborative, progressive and balanced path forward as we can see now political parties mostly in the West express opinions that lead to uncertainty about safety, xenophobia, nationalism and there are many people that accept peace do you believe that the benefits of globalization can conquer these perceptions if not what do you think will come after globalization? Well I think we know I think we can be comfortable with the fact that if some of these statements become reality that's very negative for everyone I mean I think we can get agreement anywhere in the world on that statement some of the comments they make that are very prejudicial are clearly not good for people anywhere in the world I mean so if we're gonna get agreement on that simple premise that that's a very negative thing it doesn't help your society or any other society then we have to get down to what do you do about that the question isn't that statements are being made or have been made now people have to govern we'll see what really happens that they're governing not giving political speeches but my point being is that what do you do about that since we know that's not the most positive strategy so what is a positive strategy well this is where I say business has to engage more so than ever before there we can talk about ways to do that because that varies around the world based on the structure of governments and the leadership of governments it varies with think tanks academic institutions mean there are multiple different techniques that we could discuss but we're getting really into the mud but without going down into the really the detailed levels business has to engage and put forward a more positive dialogue right I believe that's very very important more important today than when I was a CEO that doesn't mean you argue with them having a positive point of view doesn't mean you do things to try to counter the government leadership or barris government leadership or any those sorts of things it just means you make the case for why the world and your geography is better off in this future environment where people come together and work together and solve these problems then the other environment where they separate themselves and try to create their own little islands will have 200 islands in the world versus 200 nations in the world that are interconnected through trade and education those sorts of things I that's a I would think about it and and it's CG we're thinking about creating some intellectual work to make the case businesses could use the case they could not use the case but we're some organizations need to make the case right now again I say it varies by part of the world as to how you make the case right so there's not going to be one uniform strategy that you could work in the US that's going to work in the UK or in Africa or in France or Germany or China whatever so you have to have kind of a global point of view understanding there are regional subtleties that you have to adjust to I can give you examples of what we've done in the past around innovation and how we work with governments and transforming educational systems and the like but it's those sorts of things that you have to do our question is a lot more pragmatic a lot of our students are wondering in the article after reading that what the skills are that you think MBA students of the future would require probably a lot more than you're learning in class today not teasing well I have children in MBA schools you might view them as very high end MBA schools some of the things that they're learning are very good historically but aren't so good going out 20 years right that's that's the challenge as you look to the future right but my point is I think the skills that you need to come away with is first of all I don't believe you could start a business today that's not going to be impacted by global factors of some kind it could be competition it could be opportunity it could be government regulation but I sincerely believe and I'm involved with a dozen startups right every one of these startups even the ones that are less than two years old with 20 people are being impacted some form of globalization even if it's as simple as the talent pool the engineering talent it's going to be that simple or it can be more complex like market access they have a platform but they can't get distribution into some countries it could be a little more complicated right it could be policy around data protection you have a platform you want your data to be shared globally and you have restrictions in the EU in places like that China Russia etc not just the EU there are lots of examples of these restrictions my point is that you need to understand you need to think as a assuming you're going to start a company or go into an existing company you have to have this point of view that you're operating on a global stage and you have to understand what that means so you have to be sensitive to diversity you have to be respectful of other other people's ethnic backgrounds you have to understand cultural subtleties there's all those sorts of things other than be really good at math so you go into finance or be really good at design of conceptual so you go into marketing or really good at engineering you know so you write some software you tweet you play some video games you know words with friends or something like that right I mean Instagram put your photos up I mean phenomenal phenomenal impact society right put some photos up right I mean so you have to really have this perspective of you're in a global world day one not like IBM 50 years later day one you're in a global world day one you're gonna be driven by technology your business model is going to be either enhanced or inhibited by technological shifts you need to understand those technological shifts so let's go back to the curriculum so what do you need to know well how much time do you spend on these global societal shifts I don't know I've only looked at two elite business schools in their curriculum I haven't seen it yet when you talk about operations do you talk about digital demand-driven supply chains you talk about supply chains that existed for me 15 years ago when I was in the PC business before we sold it what are you studying I but my children are studying is not the future they're studying what I did 20 years ago it's called the case study methodology now maybe I shouldn't go to the top five business schools of the world that we work with I should take the ones that are on the bottom tier and work with them maybe they have a different curriculum I don't know my only point being is I'm not I know you think I'm being sarcastic I'm not I'm just trying to point out the fact that you need to prepare yourselves while you have this wonderful time in school other than make great friends with really smart people that's really important that's going to sustain a lot of your success in the future so don't discount that you want to have great relationships with really smart people that's important however while you have this two years or 18 month break I would really focus on as best you could these huge shifts that are occurring global societal shifts and technological shifts and how do they intersect because through those intersections opportunities are going to be created and that's where you want to get yourself positioned either personally because that'll be opportunity for you or as a company because that's opportunity for the company but those intersection points are going to be where you will be of the greatest value if I could follow up so does it matter if you study finance or you study marketing or strategy really what you're saying is that the softer skills what you should look at you are you need some deep set of skill I mean you have to have you know because people are going to hire you into the entity with some set of skills right so it could be finance it could which could take you to consulting or corporate strategy you know business modeling finance etc that takes you to say one of the big six consulting firms which then put you in the corporate strategy which then put you in operations at some point in the future so you need that set of skills however I believe the differentiating factor in the long term are going to be the softer skills interpersonal relationships multinational global leadership in the sense that you can paint a vision that's understood by 20 different cultures that all come together that follow you as the pie piper not just the people of your like background who like to play beer pong and drink in a pub you know right they might have different interest right but you have to relate to all those interests because you have to bring these people together and you're going to be all all of you are going to be working in these multinational groups I'll give you a one example about one of my children who's not working and he was for the one of the most prestigious consulting firms after coming out of the top business schools right and everybody on his team a lot of the people in his team were Asian you know multicultural but Asian you know Chinese Indian Korean etc Asian and he was at least there's so much smarter there's so much better at math than I am dad there's so much better in math than I am and I said to say Christopher there's other thing it has to happen here so don't ever forget the fact that somebody has to work with the client and get the money so who gets the money the mathematician or the person with the interpersonal skills he's I got my role yeah your job is to go get the money and without the money they can't do the math so I make that as an example that all these skills are necessary Ira none are more important than the others in these relationships or these teams as you build them but you're going to find that you need all those things in a startup early phase tech startups heavy engineering bias low general management this market very low but very heavy engineering five to ten years into their cycles it flips as they have to scale it completely flips as they have to scale so my point being is that those skills are going to be required at different points in time depending upon where you are but the most important thing I believe is your ability to get people to work together to collaborate to be persuasive with your ideas there's no command and control hierarchy anymore so you have to do it through your thinking and through your communications capability I would that's the soft skills your background it's the soft skills right thank you very soft you needed it today not 30 years ago Ira thank you all right let's go to I say thank you thank you my question is how does the government of the future look like and back up a little bit I think my question is more like how do we manage to make governments more agile to react to the technological progress and see so for instance I think the progress will eventually lead to unemployment especially in the labor skill which we cannot fire the social pressure we saw which will lead to populism and I mean I don't want to go too much into politics here but the France getting popular and we are also coming elections in Germany so from your point of view how can we make in the future we ran this this this movement if I may interject unfortunately we could not hear much of the first 15 minutes so you might have thought about a couple of these points I'm sorry I can connect the two things because in the beginning I forecasted in an article in 2006 that if these issues weren't addressed we'd have the problems that we have today we just happen to have them today the forecast was seems pretty obvious at that point in time I was hopeful that it would not occur but it occurred and the question is now that we find ourselves here what is the answer first of all no different with society it also starts with political leadership political leadership needs to understand what's happening versus what they're seeing they're seeing displacement they think it's because the world globalized and jobs moved around the world and that's a piece of it but the majority of it is technology I mean there's studies and a lot I cannot the economist there but zillions of studies that say 80% is driven off of innovation 20% is driven off of labor costs and up an innovation is on steroids I mean it's going very very quickly so instead it's going very fast it's accelerating so they need to become much more technologically aware now I understand that if you're later in life like me that can be hard to do however you can surround yourself with people who are technologically aware who could help you understand these implications and what your policy should be so you can make progress I mean that's the constructive way forward that doesn't mean that's what will get you elected I understand if you want to get elected you might campaign on a different platform but what happens the day after you're elected you now own the problem that you have to solve and which you got your speech that got you elected will not solve the problem so if you really want to contribute and give back to your society or your nation as its leader I believe you need to either educate yourself and what's really going on or surround yourself with people who understand what's really going on and give them a significant role to assist you and moving your nation forward versus backwards I mean take the Trump administration this is not visible to any of you on I'm sure on this broadcast I happen to be there for five hours in the White House on Monday there are probably gosh dozens of people in their 30s and very influential roles that are looking at things like how do you re-engineer government processes to make them more digitally aware I mean to run around over the building over the West Wing they call it you never see that it might never happen I don't know but at least there's an effort underway there's a whole group of women who came from Wall Street and Goldman Sachs who are working on women empowerment and women entrepreneurship from a policy perspective again you never hear that but it's a whole portion of the building and they're all the oldest one I think is 40 or something like that they look really good I don't know I'm an old guy but they're young I mean they're a lot younger than me so my point being is that it's a it's a small example of if you don't necessarily I would now what would I do if I was wherever in the world I would try to educate whomever it happens to be La Pan Trump Mrs. Clinton whomever right actually Angela Merkel actually I used to work with her a lot she really got all this stuff so she doesn't need a lot of education she was a physicist by training most people were lawyers by training so it's a little or now they're golf course developers by training right so you know it's a different set of skills but I mean and also I used to work a lot with Tony Blair when he was running Prime Minister the UK he got this stuff you know right but she need they all need to understand it thank you all right let's go to Indian School of Business well Bitcoin being the company you can Bitcoin's the company blockchains the technology that underpins yeah yeah it's the ledger-based system I think you have to take them at various points of view right they're slightly different but fundamentally if you look at a lot of these companies that they've created these cloud-based platforms that enable their businesses I think that's going to continue to move very very quickly where has it been the most successful or where it's had the most impact media by far has been the the most significant retail because you have the you called the category killers the avazons the Alibaba's the carts now maybe not yet in India but growing very quickly right so those are two primary industries as you move down that scale and you get your point as you get into finance insurance manufacturing you see less of these effects so let's talk a little bit about blockchain as an enabling technology for distributed value exchange that's really what it does I mean we talk about today in the form of currencies you know exchanging currencies multi currency exchange around the world wiring services etc you know or peer-to-peer lending or peer-to-peer value exchange I use the term value exchange because it doesn't necessarily have to be money we just think of money as value there can be other kinds of value exchange and what happens in the technology it enables that exchange in a very safe and secure way that's what it does it also does it in a lot lower cost in the current system but that's more about the current systems design than the cost of a blockchain implementation and by that I mean because of these industries are so finance and insurance are so heavily regulated there's so many intersection points you have to pass through and as you pass through everything is added on cost plus profit keeps added being added on and then you get to a more expensive cost you know 3% or 4% to move the money versus less than 1% if you move it through not just Bitcoin or Circle D or the bunch of these companies that let you do those kinds of things but it's driven off of the industry structure more so than the technology so the key now if you're thinking about the perspective I want to get involved in some of these technology-based companies I would encourage you and I'm an investor in some but I wouldn't and they're the technologies are terrific but you need to understand the industry dynamic and the regulatory environment that you'll be entering into and that's different all over the world I mean so as I say this there's not one that's this bike it's they're different by country not even by say northern Europe northern and North America Southeast Asia whatever it's different by country the regulations are different by country in the United States they're different by state within a country say a 50 states that are different than the country so you need to understand both sides of these implications not just the technology the technology is terrific it value can be exchanged on blockchain it is much more secure than the current systems it's a much lower cost point for the value that's exchanged however you know you have to put that in the context of where it's being deployed the other thing you have so have to consider is I'll give you an example which gets back to regulation we worked very closely with Barty in India so and Cineo Mattel is a very close personal friend of mine and we had a phenomenal phenomenal business model for Barty Airtel in India and for a dollar you know of your whatever was a minute or hour of cell phone usage probably was an hour for the dollar he could make 50 cents on the dollar do you ask the same price point was seven and they could make 20 cents on seven dollars so my argument to Cineo was we ought to take your model and take it to the United States and actually it was like $11 in Germany and you made like 10 cents so why don't we take the model and take it elsewhere and he was right you said Sam you have to understand that all these telco industries by country are regulated and I have to get tariffs permission to enter it's called a tariff right and I can't get tariffs or the tariffs could cost me so much because of the the telcos are owned by the government Deutsche Telecom it's not picking on Deutsche Telecom them just saying they're owned by the government you know right that therefore it's not really a private open market I use it as a case study as to why technology even though we did some incredible things to allow him for a dollar to make 50 cents within the technology on how he loyalty management how you got more subscribers etc etc how you did the music the sound bites for your phone all that right we did all those things together but the point of it was that it wasn't necessarily something you could take around the world because you had different industry regulatory structures that's just my example an Indian example for you based upon a model we're talking about thank you all right ESAC based on your comments you talk about two different types of changes or shifts one in technology and one in global societal shifts and I was wondering if you comment a little bit about how you see businesses reaction to these changes or what impact does it have on global business you anticipate firms reacting similarly to different types of shops or how should they tailor their responses particularly technology right so the two separate things one is they're both very hard to do but the first one is let's start with technology as a business leader people on this this little conference we're having this little lecture series right need to understand the implications of these technologies platforms blockchain 3d printing you know I go on fracking we go you know molecule management if you're a biotech when you need to understand the implications of those technologies it doesn't mean you have to be a technologist it means you have to understand the implications if you're going to manage something that's going to be technology driven in the future I can't think of many things that aren't I mean if you want to fix the health care system in the United States or in the UK you get technologies the answer I mean it's not going to be you know more people running around they can charge into a system that's already inefficient and unprofitable you know it's going to be technology based solutions whether that's in diagnostics or whether that's in reducing the cost of the drugs whatever it happens to be so you have to be an understanding of the implications you have to understand how to take advantage of these shifts but doesn't mean you have to be a technologist hard but easier than the next one because the next one you have to be I'll call it agile and ambidextrous you have to understand the the world that you're operating within and it's not one we talk about the global economies and how they become much more integrated today that is true but cultural value and societal value has not become one so that if you are which we used to say when we were doing it IBM creating the global integrating enterprises and you had to be locally relevant you had to align with societal needs sometimes that's education and skills development China was our strategy education skills development sometimes it's environment Brazil rainforest sometimes it's personal safety crime center in some some polo right no in Rio Rio de Janeiro so it varies is my only point I have it was clean water Galway Bay it was traffic congestion Stockholm Singapore those kinds of things so that your connection was different now the technology solutions that we were offering were 70% of that was the same and 30% we'd have to modify but the core was basically the same the majority what we were providing but you had to connect you had to care and your local leaders had to care about those cultures in those societies you could not just be a multinational that was distributing product for economic gain and I made that speech for 20 years when I was my last 20 years at IBM and every country we would demand on how they were going to locally connect when I would meet with Sarkozy in France we'd go through innovation strategy right when I spent the weekend at checkers with Prime Minister Blair and his wife we had a different strategy because we had a lab called Hursley in the UK I mean so when I would sit down with women who in China talking about the globalization of the PC industry and the creation of a company called Lenovo it was a different strategy okay right my only point was that you these are just examples of they're all real examples by the way it's no embellishment here they're all for I know you guys think I'm making up I'm hanging around all these people I'm not I'm really not I mean I'm making any of this up it's all it's all in historical records but you had true but you had to relate to their needs and their concerns that doesn't mean if they're doing bad things and the guys they picked weren't doing bad things if they're doing bad things you don't have to do that by the way and I've had a lot of people around the world when I was working asked me to do things that weren't in our value system doesn't say that we're illegal but they weren't in the IBM value system they might have been legal in their culture in their country but they weren't appropriate and our view of the world was right for people of the world so we wouldn't do it and I don't want to give you those examples because some of those guys are still in power and they have large militaries and I mean I don't have any protection anymore so I won't give you those examples. Thank you and I'm glad you're safe.  I'm a faculty member at question. I am alone with students not because of lack of student interest because the students are all in spring group. I thought we're pretty thoughtful working questions but I'll select one that I think fits the discussion so far and which hasn't hasn't been raised yet and it describes the tension in globally integrated enterprises between on one hand being a force for global integration and for spreading to trade around the world and improving technology around the world while at the same time such globally integrated enterprises are often extremely large and are often oligopolists which have the ability to influence domestic policy sometimes in protectionist ways and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about a few examples of how globally integrated enterprises manage that tension between pushing for greater integration on one hand but also pushing for protection for their particular interest in a country. Well that's actually I mean if that came from a student you had to give that guy an A plus because that is a great question. Really good for them about non-market strategy. Yeah yeah good for he or she or she, whomever. I tell you that I have a bias right but I can understand why people argued their interest. We always felt that we should take the position that was good for society and if it was good for society then we would have permission to operate. I used to make the argument with government leaders all I want is a level playing field. So you have your you they all have national heroes it's not this isn't new I can take you back to the end of World War II you know I can go back what Watson did the end of world I mean I've studied all this stuff being part of IBM right. There's always a national hero. We dealt with the Japanese Fujitsu Hitachi NEC we dealt with Lucky Ghost our Samsung's in Korea we've dealt with you know you have local heroes today ZTE Huawei etc in China Lenovo in China whatever so we always had these things you always had local heroes around the world. You had them in you had apricot in the UK for PCs there's all these things that would always lobby for their own advantage within their geography. Now I would always argue that guys all we want is a level playing field we will invest at their levels the Indian companies in India you know with pro etc. I said so look we'll invest I'll put 50,000 80,000 people in India they have 10,000 in India right so I'll put a manufacturing facility in Tokyo these guys manufacture offshore so I mean but just make it a level playing field don't give them any price advantage don't give them procurement advantage and we'll go compete and you're going to be better off because you'll get more value you will get more value society gets more value we've added 80,000 jobs in India 50,000 jobs in China society gets more value you have better price points if you're the government you have better quality lower cost everybody's better off having said that right this is what this is what you have to deal with that's the position that IBM would take because we had the scale to compete however having said that and you see it in the United States as well by the way you could talk about export of natural gas versus the chemical industry versus the gas producers I mean there's a lot I mean that's a current example as of like today you know right the chemical guys don't want the natural resources guys exporting because they don't want the prices of natural gas in the US which is lowest by far the world to go up to the worldwide price I mean it's happening here as well so it's not you know all my money point is it's not just strictly overseas my point being though is that the country those companies themselves it again it depends on where you are but let's assume for a second they have to be competing forget globally IBM in 170 countries Exxon Mobil in 210 countries Coke in 217 countries you know say they're in 30 countries 20 countries right you can't argue for favoritism in your country of origin and then complain in the countries that you say are restrictive so if the US gives you an incentive you can't go to the EU and say hey wait a minute EU you're helping whomever because at the end of the day they're going to come back and say well wait a minute whoa whoa your your government helped you here so we're helping them there and then when you look at this thing from a scientific economic perspective how much of your business is going to be your home country versus your international operations and IBM's example 67% of our revenue was 9 US and 65% of our workforce was 9 US it's even more for a natural resources company any one of them total I mean I can use Exxon Mobil I can use Chevron you can take Shell, BP it's even more so so you are and even though you might get some short term benefit in the long term when the countries adjust to what the US policy was you are going to be impacted as well so the most thoughtful way to approach it I believe and I think they will learn in time the best way to approach it is argue for a level playing field now when you argue for a level playing field that means you have to be excellent in operations I mean if you're going to take on a national hero like we did in Japan versus the they call them plug compatible computer manufacturers Fujitsu, Amdahl, Hitachi etc and then Nippon Electric right you have got to be better with technology, cost points, price, customer support to win so if you're going to run that strategy you need to understand your team can't be the junior varsity right you need to have the best team on the field and and then you can compete and you can be successful I but I'll wrap it up by saying all these other short term advantages in the long term will only have a negative impact to your business and we never ask for tax incentives to hire people because they'll give them to somebody else so at the end of the day we both got them so what do you have you got nothing you think they're only going to give them to you are you're the only one you're my friend and Becky I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean Ken Nairobi and Kenya you're my friend Sam you're my friend I only give it that you only give it to me you know Amy walks in next Amy's my friend I only give it to Amy by the time you leave 12 people have it you know right so it's my point is argue for a level playing field thank you all right let's try and go for a second round of questions sorry some of the aspects of our question have actually been touched upon innovation and we are looking at particularly African and the old developing countries for that matter how developing countries focus more on realizing growth from innovation when you look at things that are happening in terms of this is not quite there yeah well I think the good thing to study is why does innovation occur so fast and say Silicon Valley or innovation hubs in the United States versus other portions of the United States versus other portions of the world so what drives that idea factory right there that versus other places because you could benchmark quite honestly West Coast East Coast the US and get a different dynamic not Africa the West Coast I understand but what is the fundamental driver and the and it gets down to quite honestly people I mean at the end of the day you have people who really were in many ways of role of originals they think about breakthrough ideas and breakthrough approaches like they like to do themselves as disruptors they're very smart I mean you know you go through Steve Jobs at Apple a brilliant designer Bill Gates and I worked with all these people my generation Bill Gates and Microsoft great phenomenal engineer I mean jobs a better designer Bill a better engineer but both terrific people and they were breakthrough risk-taking at risk oriented that's true you can find those in all your countries by the way that's not unique to Americans what the difference is is the support system that lets them be that way and what is that well you have a combination of universities you know whether it's doesn't have to be research universities so there happens to be a great one out in the West Coast everybody loves called Stanford but there are also others by the way there's great ones up in Boston as we know right so 128 would be the equivalent of Silicon Valley if I give it my Boston colleagues right but so but my point being so you have these university environments that let innovation thrive they don't try to create a mold some other you guys know this around the world some other academic environments have a role model mold that they try to put people into that restricts a little bit of these crazy behavior and these people do crazy things okay IBM research people not just the eyes I'm talking about do lots of crazy things the guy that invented Watson does a lot then a lot of crazy things right you know so you have to have a culture that allows that to occur the other thing you have is you have to have capital flows either venture community where you can get risk capital and lose it all and that's okay you try it again you know right you don't personally bankrupt yourself as an individual because the capital flow model the funding models let you take risk and the people that are the investors in that environment understand that and they know that they only want one of ten to work so they're willing to if one works they'll go better on nine an example a friend of mine a very close personal friend was what it was the original investor in Facebook did okay his stock price his cost for his Facebook stock is five us cents not dollars cents he did okay however he'll take you through 30 where he didn't do okay right so one Facebook offset ten years of bad investments you know one deal they never stop making more investments because he understands those risk but nonetheless it's an example of how capital flows so you have a university environment that that creates these cultures of innovation allows it to occur a lot of the kids drop out of school too by the way that's okay then you have a capital flow model and you still have today although it's gotten harder very easy for you to start a business from a permitting regulatory perspective in the United States it is much harder today than it was ten years ago but I guarantee in the next two years it's gonna be like it was ten years ago so that's all going to change so the ability to create a business would be very fast again in the United States so what you got was government making things happen quickly people that are willing to risk some capital and an academic system that created these original kinds of folks that's what drives it so that works now let's go think about what's does that is that unique to northern California or to this area called 128 in Massachusetts or Boston or now there's a hub in New York is it unique no of course not of course not it's not unique but to do it you have to have those three legs of that stool that's what's unique and so the people there trust me aren't any smarter than the people where you guys live it's not about that they're not any smarter they just have an environment that creates opportunity for them to do unique and creative things our next question is if you look at business models they've been killing the brick and mortar business model more and more and what do you think will kill the digital business model well that's a great question well let me come at it this way these business models these technological business models have about 20 to 25 year run if you study them so literally about a quarter of a century is the run and having said that it's a lot faster than that's historically so let's make it 15 to 20 years today because these things are going so fast so what would in many ways kill this model that they have which literally if you think about the model that all the digital model does is take out inefficiencies linkages it takes out points of interaction that drive up costs that's really all it does and then if you get to be really big you get a control point i amazon and retail and prime that only occurred because they got large they got large because they got rid of all the friction that's called as the inability to you had to walk into a story had inventory in a story at brick and mortar he had therefore merchandising marketing all those sorts of things when they digitalized all that did everything on the web all that cost goes away now is that much different than what Sam Walton did with Walmart I mean I met with Sam Walton years ago when I was a kid and we he was then he was the wealthiest man in America before he gave us fortune away those children and his grandchildren so we asked Sam I said Sam what did you do he said it was very simple he said if I could use your technology in those days point of sale and have a more efficient supply chain than my competitors I would have 4% more financial flexibility 4% was the number than they have and this is my strategy every day low prices I give to you the consumer I keep two for myself the two maybe the richest man in the world that's what it was all it was that was point of sale right we still have point of sale by the way right now you click on your payment system it's no longer scan you click online it's still a digital interaction of payment to it's been updated and modified for the web vast inventories remember Amazon in the beginning didn't have warehouses and then Jeff said I got the warehouses I can't do service levels without warehouses this is before he ever got the prime he thought he was gonna his speech was we will never have a warehouse but then he realized well you can't have service levels regionally if you don't have warehouses so he has warehouses okay his warehouse is like a really automated you get those where there's no people in those warehouses by the way you know right but but that's what it is so you go through that model what friction points would you remove in the next level this technology I think the fiction proof points will be it will be removed in this phase which you can do in the next level of technology which is starting to emerge today is tightly connect with your consumer you as an individual you not as a category not as a millennial a category whatever millennial I have four of them so I don't even know what it means but anyway my own shoulder millennial I have four of them I mean I know they behave whatever right generation why generation Z I'm the old guy on art American on the old retirement society guy the categories right well all the categories you could take in this technology today to the individual one for example drugs right not not what kind of sure you wear drugs the average design point for a drug today to get through the FDA is it works in 70% of the case 70% 7 0 not exactly a high number right you could design drugs in the future that work for your biochemistry for you as an individual like they do in cancer treatments today but that can become pharmaceuticals so that would be the next wave is how do you connect to the individual how do they know what yours what your interests and your likes are and how they provide service to you for things that you find difficult to do for yourself another business model what does that happen to me I don't think it's telling Siri to play you your favorite song in your apartment or your house or your flat right I don't think that's it I do things there are many things if you are say a working mother that if you could have individual customized connoisseur services based upon technology that makes it easier for you to balance both the challenge of children and the challenge of a career that's a hit and nobody's free that out yet but that's a hit you know right there's been experiments I've seen before in the consulting business connoisseur services for consultants at McKinsey and Bain and BCG etc but they've never really solved this dynamic between the working woman and her family so I take one scientifically based pharma biotech I take one's kind of life experience based that'll be what the change will be but the way you get there is a vast amount of data think about how much you had to know about the human genome and Iris human genome which is different than Sam's human genome and Amy's human genome to come up with this drug that solved your type of cancer whatever it happened to be versus the case of 70% go back to the working woman everyone has a different dynamic in that piece of data they're not all the same where they live the circumstances are family support systems in laws grandparents well it's all different right ages of the children academic needs it's all completely different massive data problem right so so when people talk about that the big data or data analytics is going to change everything I would just suggest that there's two ways to focus on it you can become the data scientist and there's a huge opportunity for like lots of data scientists and the price points are off the charts I mean I guess I'm involved with startups it's ridiculous which you have to pay these people to get into work in these engineering disciplines it's out of control it's worse than bankers I know for you guys that want to go work at Goldman Sachs or some place or Barclays or wherever you happen to be around the world Sundan there whatever right it's worse than that now but if you're a good data scientist as far as the comp plans concern well it's good for you by the way it depends on the investment it's good for you but anyway my point being though is if you could on the other side because then everybody's going to be the genius it did lots of like Dave Ferrucci but it's the other side of this equation is if you could think about the implications of the business model and I use two I think that I've just kind of made up right here and now but there are lots of those things there'll be lots of those things you know right that that knows your needs when you walk out of your flat your your your rideshare is there you didn't have to text it it's because it's the same every day it's there it takes you it's all friction-free but that's a lot of that's a big data piece of analysis fascinating all right all right let's go to Aisa Thank you Mr. Polizano. Actually Alberto had a great question lined up but his thunder was stolen by my colleague from B.U. So I'll step in instead and sort of switch gears perhaps a little bit and talking about global trends I think pretty clearly cyber security now that global level is becoming a huge factor and I think you've been involved working on this recently so it would be great to hear a little bit of your opinion on this. So the question is really it's really all about the two assets. On one hand I think most computer scientists would think about cyber security as a technical issue. But I was struck by a call by President Obama which I think he says something like every single day when I ride I assume the whole world could be right. So I think his solution right in the technical it's really about us adapting to a hyper-transparent world where quite literally information is about us is quite available. So I'd like to hear your opinion about sort of these two points of view and of course the implications for business as well. Because for now the cyber security issues seem to have impacted the political arena but at the same rate we actually have a huge impact on business. I actually think to your point of impact the economic impact of cyber security is going to be greater than an election if it's not solved. Because we're only in the beginning of this new phase called the Internet of Things where everything has a computer and everything is now a computer. So pacemakers, Fitbits that you wear on your wrist for exercise, cameras, sensors your whole life is going to be a computer.  This is not just strictly an advanced economy point of view. So quite honestly I know that having been involved with this I was the vice chair of the commission that Obama created for cyber security. We were there during the Russian hack. We were working on stuff. We did not get involved in the Russian hack. And I'm not saying that elections aren't important. Of course elections are important but you didn't in elections so far we haven't damaged society as yet. As I say if you get this other thing wrong and you start killing people that's a bigger deal. And I tried to express my point of view to my friends that were lay people that I worked with in the cyber security commission. Why don't we start with our first level of priority is no one dies. That's the first. You don't die. Then we'll work down the personal convenience that your photo get lost. I know you like to post your photos then they get lost. So we have an extreme range of technology.  You didn't take a drone and crash into a building and blow something up. You didn't take a self-driving car and kill five people in a park.  All right. You don't blow up nuclear facilities or critical infrastructure. This is, I mean, I'm not trying to scare you but I'd start with that as the priority and work my way down to social media and whether your tweet got there or not. Your 144 characters you could go resend. Okay. Right. I understand that the politicians would re-rank that. I got it. Okay. Because they like these things that their photos and their sound bites but nonetheless that's not picking the politicians. So if you look at it through that dimension and you add to that dimension the fact that what mostly causes the problems today, 80% of the issue as far as exposure to being hacked, cyber attacked or hacked, right, is personal hygiene, passwords, password protection, authentication. For example, the Democratic hat. The chief of staff to the presidential candidate, Mrs. Clinton's password was the word password.  So I'm sure you kids aren't using any of those because you're too smart. You're too digitally savvy. But a lot of people do. Your birth date, for example. So hygiene is 80% today. Right. Now all this other stuff gets discussed around the technology and there are things that we need to do in the technology and I'll go there next. But the most important thing for the individual is just hygiene. Be aware of the risk. So that's education. And one of the things we recommended in the commission, education starts at like the first grade. I mean, when you're six or seven years old and all changes, great school systems are different around the world. But six or seven years old, you are beginning to be trained on the Internet and the importance of, you know, like, don't talk to strangers. Right. If you're a young kid, well, don't do these kinds of things on the Internet. No different than don't talk to a stranger. No different than if you're in a forest, smoking a bear, don't light a match. If it's dry, you know, don't leave a forest.  So it's awareness and education of people as to just how they should conduct themselves in this transparent digital world. How do you conduct yourselves? Now, along those lines, there's some technology things. I'm going to stay consumer before I get to governments and institutions. But on consumer, there are quickly some things you could do. The simplest thing you could do is have what's called dual level authentication. When you swipe your credit card today, that's one level authentication, then you put in some personal identity. And in the United States, it's your zip code of the town you live in. Something that matches, it's two. It's not just one. So in addition to your password, dual level. If the government required dual level authentication for everything that you interface with the government, 80% of the population would use dual level authentication because government touches everybody, driver's license, property tax, your retirement income, everything. So you would you address it if the government would just insist upon dual level authentication and password changing. You'd solve a lot of these problems and educate the consumer. So that's that piece. On the enterprise piece, there are lots of standards now that exist and what enterprises should be doing to make sure that they are protecting themselves from a cyber attack. And there's a standard in the United States that comes from the Department of Commerce called the NIST standard. But it works around the world. It's publicly available. And a lot of companies now around the world are adopting these standards because it really is a way to manage enterprise risk. If you follow the standards drawn on the internet, go to the US.gov site for Commerce Department. NIST standards, it's all there. That will again address a lot of the problems. However, it doesn't mean that incidents won't occur. So I'm going to go to now something has occurred. So if you're a company, look at these things, these standards, they work. You can have different ones in the EU if you like. It doesn't matter. Have some standard. You have this thing now. And if you're a public company because you have to have an audit committee to do an enterprise risk assessment. So the board has to go through where you are. That'll cause things to change. That will make progress because of that. Those process changes will get corporate America or the corporate world up to speed if they do those kinds of things. Now something has happened. Now you actually have an event. And then this is where it gets complicated because you have an event. And the first thing you have to be able to do now, private sector view than the government's view. Let me show you the private sector view. It's less scary. Private sector view of the event is that basically you have to have what's known as information sharing in a way where you're protected legally from any kind of suits.  So it didn't happen to 10 banks. It didn't happen to 5 million cards. It happened to maybe 100 cards, you know, those kinds of things. Information sharing. The final one which is much more complicated is nation states. Nation states do bad things. And all by the way, all countries spy on each other. Let's not be naive. So if any of you think that your country is not spying on somebody, trust me, I have my top secret clearances. Everybody spies on each other. It's been going on for hundreds of years. There's nothing new here. They're all spying on each other. The question is what do you do once you spy on somebody? It's not that you're spying and listening in the phone calls. Everybody is. So then therefore when something occurs, what is the action plan? This is where it gets complicated because you need to have collaboration on a global basis. Because if it really is a rogue nation who's an outlier to international standards, whatever those standards happen to be, human societal standards, prisoner of war standards, there's all kinds of standards. If they're outliers on those standards, then fundamentally you have to have a mechanism to literally convene, convene both locally and internationally and come up with a plan to respond. If it's something where you have to respond quickly, you have to have mechanisms in place to do so. This gets, and I'll wrap it up here because I've been in meetings where people have looked at these things occurring and have asked the question, is this an act of war or is it a criminal offense? Now it's getting hard, right? But this is what countries have to do. They have to make that determination. In the simulation they had 40 minutes to do it. It's not a lot of the time to decide whether it's an act of war or not. The old days, you could see the missile. It's going to take some amount of time to get to you, right? And you could take it out. This is all moving at the speed of light. So they need to have mechanisms, and that's technology mechanisms and international collaboration agreements so that these nations, these like-minded nations who comply with international standards, like pretty much everybody on the phone today, your countries, can get together and respond and deal with rogue nations or nation states if they're doing things that could be very disruptive and harmful to society at large. Thank you, Sam. Was that too long? No, we're going to have to wrap it up. I'm sorry we didn't get to everyone's second question. We want to thank you again for participating. I hope you enjoyed this discussion. I know we found it fascinating. The questions were great. We will post this video on YouTube in a couple of days so you can catch up and re-watch. Again, thank you for participating. Thank you guys for your attention.


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