Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always my forever co-host mr. Tyler Emerson. What's up, brother? How you doing? Good man. Good to be back. Hope everybody's well Excited for this indeed also joining us first time on the show And I'm sad that we've waited this long to have them. It's Rocco. You boy. What's up Rocco? How you doing? Hello, everybody. Hello Vince. Hello Tyler. Hello chat. I'm feeling good. This is nice. This is nice It's great to have you Rocco. Pleasure being here. If you're not familiar. He was one of our participants in our Muppets evolved game that happened over on Meph's channel. It was a great time. Rocco played a Fantastic Muppet. It was I did I had it was the Swedish chef disciple that went around with his his pant is trusty Panpan and his gun goon and it was a real gun that just blew up actual Muppets for a lot of damage Stereco, it was great. It was a great game. So Glad to have Rocco on the channel tonight. We're gonna be sharing our thoughts on a OS 3.0 so far getting into some of the oh, let's call it nuances of the things we've learned Tyler and I we've gotten on Rocco We've gotten a bunch of games in Rocco has been doing a series over on his own channel and understanding some fine nuances We've got some tournaments now. So it's we've got some thoughts. You're gonna listen to every one of them That's how this works And right off the rip if you like the idea of thoughts, why not hit that like button? It's so easy. It's just clicking it right away and it helps other people find the show Just click that little button be a cool guy or gal thought provoking man thought provoking Dean But first off the news as always so Tyler, what have we got? The news rumor engine Do we finally have a week where it's an AOS thing? I think we may have done it Yeah, I'll bring it up. Sorry. I had the event slide up still because I wasn't thinking but that's okay. That's all right It's all good it is a corn thing because you can see the corn symbol right here the rest of this Yeah, corn symbol That doesn't necessarily mean it's an AOS thing as we mentioned before they've met they've rumored the word bearers Coming down so could very well be a 40k thing Who knows? Yeah, get the corn vibe or maybe what are they called exonites the Eldari And that could be a cane thing, huh? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah a little more fair. I'm I mean, that's that's the dream. Have there ever been exonite models In 40 I don't know actually if anybody in chats knows that I don't remember sink Maybe way back when yeah, they'd have some there was a lore There's supposed to be corsairs we never see there's supposed to be a whole a whole mess of the space of somewhere doing something I Think they probably regular range before they start exploring the other things Sure, you're not wrong. Yeah, we could be hopeful though. Sure. It's probably world-eaters. Yeah. Yeah So yeah, there's that and then of course we had Warhammer pluse launched Yeah I My favorite things that Rob does. Yeah, it gets me every time So we had a bad report thousand points between stormcast and curl boys. We actually got a little more info Yes, give a give a quick run down So I didn't see anything what I wanted Tyler live in field reporting what we love 100% done my job All right, so a stuff action for curl boys called gritting blades I don't think we've heard about this one yet. Maybe we did an article and it's forgot about it Maybe out of the mist. Yeah out of the mist battle traits the first round Units are not visible to enemy units more than 12 away So they get night fighting in round one Yep, yeah, I'll take it. That's too bad. That's too bad.  They just hear they hear the sounds of orcs dying Slippery scumbag command trait amazing name you can retreat and still charge Sure, I think that's part of the grinning blades Spiker seeds artifact once per game have an enemy unit fishes finishes a charge move six inches away Throw the spiker seeds roll a dice reach model in the unit five plus some mortal wounds Little mortal wound bomb on a big day. Yeah, pretty crazy. Yeah, pretty cool Was that a once per game you said or yeah, I think that's yeah once per game artifacts, okay Okay, and Little bit on so Forgetting the fellow's name with warmer community. He played hammers of Sigmar They you know, they used to have the six of Ward. I think it was around heroes. Yeah. Yeah hammers of Sigmar Okay, because now it's Well, the article was saying that you can have to go with the in guard now is battle line there and And I got some fulminators that are gonna need a home because if they lost their shooting attack And now it's an ability my whole living city list I've been using for Year and a half is gone. Oh Yeah That's some drag off to move around All right, so now Nick Nick was playing hammers of Sigmar. Yeah, okay six up or when within or probably holy within 12 And he said with them. Maybe it was holy within within 12 inches of an objective you get a six up ward Okay, Sigmar units again. Yeah, okay, and then envoy of the heavens commensurate For him, Mr. Sigmar if unit within 12 or again, maybe holy within 12 suffers a casualty that unit gets a plus one save for the rest of the term. Oh Again, that's pretty strong Okay, so they have to it have to be they have to be getting attacked by multiple units to trigger that Right. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know if that was just one unit or if any unit could you know a unit or yeah single unit and then The artifact a modified one, you know, pretty pretty basic a modified moon rolls of six to double damage on one melee weapon profile hammered Might artifact power. So okay. Yeah news. Sure. It's there It works, I guess better than on the on the to hit but still right the thing Yeah, it's a thing quick question. Did they get rid of the the bring back a redeemer unit on a five up Then They didn't mention it. So I would must be gone. Okay. Okay. Okay, okay You may want to try try turning your camera on and off again by the way again Rocco It's doing that thing again that thing All right, here we go. Although you did have a good frozen frame not a silly frozen frame. Ah, I feel was a good one I could have just It's all right It looks like it's gonna keep doing it because he came back you move for like a second then it stopped Now you're doing it again. It'll just have to be the way we live with All right, I tried sorry yet. Such is it such is life such as life We're gonna get all sorts of fun Rocco freeze frames during this during this show. Hey So all this info was on warhammer pluse on their 100 on their thousand point battle report that went out. Yeah, good Yeah, so that leads into we got a little status update on the Where are the battle tomes? Yes, I mean Not getting all the details of you know changing articles and from the past yada yada yada, but basically they're now saying Due to the ongoing global disruption rest assured that the battle tomes will be both available To pre-order in September Okay That's the thing I guess It's a shame We're really pushing it here for me getting a hold of my stuff for that tournament that I'm going to in early November Like this is it's getting harder and harder for me to know what I'm playing so Which one are you going to in November? I'm going to Holy Havoc and I want to take now It's only a thousand points a storm cast I have to have painted so that's otherwise there'd be no chance of this especially with the paint scheme I'm going for here but the But you know not getting a hold of my dragon riders and stuff like that when clearly that's what I'm gonna paint Because then I can make like a nine model army and it'll be great and I'll actually finish this in time But You know yeah, like the battle tome delay is insane It's like whatever you can't get the books. I I'm sure they're shipping them from China I don't know why they still only have the books as opposed to just putting out digital books That's what I mean. There's a lot of obvious things Tyler I said, what are my thoughts on Warhammer plus my thoughts are it seemed like a train wreck today if you have to put out a flowchart For how to sign in to your your service Like I mean like I don't I don't have anything that a million other content creators aren't gonna already say and think like I mean Of course, it's silly like there's no universe where that's appropriate. You know, I mean like it's just a common-sense thing Like when I get a new app From any from anyone, you know in in the world, I don't expect that to be how it works, right? Yeah, I go in the app. I create my new account. Yeah, there's a multi-factor authentication and then I'm done You know, like that's it. Yeah, this works So like it just Like again, I don't have any I'm sorry everybody I don't have any great passion for it like I don't have any great anger Because they've never proven themselves competent at launching these apps and I had no expectations that they would prove themselves competent this time like yet again, they managed to Somehow find rock bottom and and just continue with that level of quality when it comes to their digital content. So I Don't know what to tell you. Yep Yeah, like Yeah, the somebody made a comment that you know, basically the battle time delay may be due to the AOS app delay which of course the 40k app was quite delayed and I Had gathered a bit of a mess when it came out as well I'm not sure the current state of it But yeah, so that that could there will be the case that they're just trying to get their AOS app in order before they can Get these books up, you know with the connection between the two I think they're gonna make the battle terms available digital only through That app as I understand it Yeah Tyler said what why do I think they've they've had a spotty track record simple because they it's not what they do Like businesses do a thing when you try to do things outside of that and you don't bring in the right people And it's outside of your wheelhouse of expertise it you often have problems like that's just by the way This isn't something like unique to them Even like major very successful tech companies regularly screw crap up like this You know when Facebook first launched Facebook live people were like murders and suicides and stuff like oops You know so and that's pretty egregious so again, it's not like You know, it's not like this is some unique thing for GW and by the way, that's that was actually in Facebook's wheelhouse Of the type of product they developed and they still royally screwed it Yeah So like it's just it's it's a very easy thing to mess up and when you're working out when you're trying to do something I'll hold you sort of vertical and when you when you're working outside of your expertise as well It's just a it's an environment. That's right for it So there you go. I mean that's my thoughts like I I'm sure they'll eventually get it to a good place Yeah, so it's gonna take some months a lot of kinks to be you know, ironed out It'll happen eventually and then we'll move on is up. Nothing to complain about sure. I mean like You know, you know, they're a model company as we hear about with the rules. They're a model company Yeah, sure.  I don't play 40k and You know, that was the I don't care about any of their animations I'm sure I would like to watch Louise paint because I think she's an excellent painter. Oh, yeah But like I don't care enough about the app to do that. There are a lot of great painters on YouTube. So, okay If she had a channel, I would watch it. I would certainly do that I think she's an awesome person and a fantastic painter, but you know There you go. Like I there's there's zero percent content that interests me as part of that app So it literally couldn't matter less to me that it's messed up So there you go. I like the the bet reps. I thought they did a pretty nice job out of the gates I haven't checked out the 40k one yet. But yeah, I enjoyed the the thousand pointer I'm sure that they did. So, yeah, we'll see how those develop. Sure. That was well done They put a lot of effort into that one We got a little article on grips with stormcasts. So just wanted a quick if anybody missed it We got a little bit more info on yeah on the balsam what these groups gonna be doing Rocky might well Actually, both you guys might find as compelling Storm I know I do I read that I love that stormcast is my first time me I saw the rules for the griffon got changed. I'm like, okay Chariots. I'm a chariot fan But go on go on Yeah, well, basically they got the impact hits the storm strikes chariot as you're in leash at the end of the charge move They can end me unit with an inch of it roll another dice equal to the unmodified charge rolls if you roll an eight You roll eight dice for each four plus a mortal wounds. So pretty tasty. It's up there. So they have that the basic cast Yeah, that's basically what the cast chariot has it's I guess the cast It is on a five up not a four up, but still over charge like the good over charge. Yeah good over charge Yeah, that'd be a better comparison But I mean like it's it's following a template that other chariots in the game have they're trying to make chariots useful It's nice. I'm okay with that Yeah, I will never run that that chariot So if I if I if it's so rules compelling that I felt the need to use it Yeah Then I would I would I would certainly do something else like it would be a very different chariot Again, I said it before I'll say it again. I want tanks not chariots. We're in the complete wrong time period here Okay, okay cast tanks So there you go That's that's my feeling on the thing Fair enough I'm a fan I was gonna say actually it's a funny bit. So Like I'm six one my wife's about five foot really four eleven, but you know, she'll tell people five feet So she saw the the the chick and the dude riding together. She's like, that's us. You have to run them. I'm like, okay I'm like, I'm already sold. You're just giving me more reasons to buy the cool thing that I like. It's my thing Yeah, sure That's great Yeah, so the vanguard pallies pallidors. They got improved what ride the winds etheric used to be Let's see.  Yes, you don't need to know what it was I loved it. It was a random dice roll and it was silly and it was bad and now teleport around The place you would ever you'd make a normal move or a retreat you can instead leave and pop up nine inches somewhere It went from something I couldn't care less about to uh to You know Freakin Amazing like amazing. That's an incredible rule. Oh, yes. It is fantastic Somewhere in that book there's going to be retreat in charge Like it will exist. Yeah Okay It's so book. It's it's sorry. It's such a big book, right? Mm-hmm. It's so book But that I'm sure um And so like once you get that that's a that's a beautiful day right there, right? So yeah, yeah, great stuff I'm already thinking like excelsis has retreat in charge. I'm like, okay, I play enough cities And uh, if the lord arcanum On grift chargers still has that I used to take them out trait to get the extra dice Just to go farther And now it's just the teleport to in place of a retreat in charge Like I I got gears turning but I need a book to see what the whole thing is at the end of the day So I see potential. I see potential. I'm excited Yeah, 100 so griff hounds warning cry got improved if an enemy unit Sorry, if an enemy reserve unit or summoned unit Is set up on the battlefield for the first time within 12 Of the griff hound unit you can pick up to three friendly storm cast units only within 12 of this unit To shoot any shooting any shooting has to go into the target You know that reserve unit or that summon unit you can't pick a different target So yeah, rocko. What do you think about that one? I think my lord castleton is little buddy and all of the uh, the Two ballistas and the the nine long strikes I have that now have to be a unit of six And then maybe a unit of three. We're gonna have some options guys call me crazy If you're doing the shoot caster out like uh jack for me rolling ones back in the day Whoo, that's spicy that could be in a in a summoning meta if you're in there And that you know, they need to set up for the charge They need to set up for objectives And you've got a couple heroes bringing the little but you want to bring the lord and parrot in any way You know the lord castleton to give plus one to save as long as that stays that way Is gonna be a big piece for synergies Um Yeah, I think it's a win Yeah, it looks pretty good. Yeah, my answer is you're reading that wrong I hope okay that rule says the following like I know I know that you just read the text none of that text is real Oh, no, okay. Here's what the text actually says All right If you've got this bird Yep And three units of up to three units of shooters Within range of whatever their weapons are Okay near the burbs Yep, then nobody will set up ever Within 12 inches of you Yes, and I love that. That's what it says, which is fine. That's still a good rule Okay, but like no one's going to just I hope it just set up and get shot in the face by like multiple units of of raptors and all that kind of stuff It's just not gonna happen What it means is that you have a much stronger A screen out game right because your screen out bubble is at nine inches 12 inches in storm cast Meaning you're much more alpha resistant if you've got the little griff hounds around to do their their borks Yep, right and yeah, and even better because it's they have to be outside at 12 There's a chance they just might not even be in a range of charge at all Sure, I mean they they wouldn't be yes because they have to be outside 12 So I mean it's fine great easy like that just means like all right if i'm playing storm cast I don't put my life takers in the sky. I put them on the board and then I just charge you Like It will it will necessitate certain plays. It's not a bad thing I'm just saying you're thinking you're gonna get shots out of that You know like never once right like it's that threat Nobody of any kind of like funk with any kind of functional brain is gonna set up in range For you to just shoot them Right in round one and if they know they're gonna do something later in the game.  Yeah, and then they'll drop on you. Yeah, and then it's my dog getting shot and not the unit Yeah, and that's fine. Yeah, like yeah, which again is still great point straight. That's love it That's forcing them to to shoot a non-optimal target again wonderful None of these things are bad.   So that's Or 10 minutes or something. So that's fun. So if that happens Okay Then we're gonna deal with that and I'll make a new meeting I'm gonna do that over here on the side While I make a new I see that telling me yeah, but there's a little remaining time It had no warning about that before it's just let me do that So that's fun. I have that over here on the side in the next 10 minutes while you guys are talking So, uh, yeah somebody pointed out that the right of the winds etheric on the vanguard paladors You have to be more than one inch from all terrain and objectives. So and of course more than nine inch from enemy units Yeah, just to clarify that. Yep. Yeah, good clarification. Again. I'm still a fan of it even with the restrictions. Those are healthy restrictions They make sense You know another thing to make it a bit more fair. I'm fine with that Yeah, definitely And then the last thing we had here vents the dominion cry war cry. Sorry dominion war cry stats and campaign Actually, I missed this article I actually downloaded all the stuff throughout the dominion Yeah, it's cool. They added all the rules specifically for Uh, swamp bogglers and the new storm cast. Oh, okay. Yeah yes Yeah, there you go. Yeah, all the new heroes have it. Um, I I don't So it's uh The orc on naked mole rat down because I it shouldn't be the vultures um, and then, uh, of course everybody but yin drasta And it it's nice, you know, and they actually have the the new vigilore like all the stuff that was previewed Uh, the the special weapon on the annihilators Have a profile on that as well So You know, they do do more damage that that part didn't change From what we would expect because it they'll mirror not perfectly but it'll mirror a little bit um Yeah, it's nice So if you're in the war cry and that's your thing and you have the dominion starter set go go ahead And they also said It might be something for war cry coming on the horizon if i remember right as well So it might be a new season of that which everyone was like, oh kill teams the scammers game getting all the stuff Well, maybe war cry will get a little more too Give them time. They've got an app to roll out Yeah War cry was that what 2019? Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, it's more around there. Yeah, it was before it was before covid I I remember there was a time at one point Oh So That's what i've got for the news. I know we've got some events to talk a little bit about Yes, we do. We do that. I'm going to bring it up now. There you go. Cool Yeah So, yeah, this I don't believe this has changed at all since last week everybody But there's what we've got coming up for this weekend and then september You know, we still got face hammer Happening bruce city brawl.  Not september. There might be some local one days that aren't on the list that I might try to go out to I was my next big thing is actually the boys I've got a buddy up in uh, in upstate new york that Wants to do the uh, actually the team tournament Because you couldn't get tickets to the to the the main event. So we might I might for like that saturday I might do A blood bowl, but we're on a waiting list for the the main two-day event on saturday and sunday So we'll see what happens there, but if not, we're we're leaning. He does a little bit of lumen eff I've got some deep kids. We'll do a surf and turf And I have a fun time and then um later in december my event after that is uh, an ocean city maryland shore hammer That's that's farther out. That's yeah, that's um Because I'm going with all the guys from the base of war gamers who my actual gaming club from from uh back when I lived, uh in the Greater philadelphia area Because I was just like you threw a rock over the Delaware border and you and you would have hit me Uh, that's how close I was to fill it was a great place great guys and gals there god There's hundreds of them. They're they're a whole army if they ever formed up properly And they go to all these events up and down the east coast Okay, very cool. Yeah, I don't ever hear much Going on and filly in terms of alas. Well, that's the I mean they they um, they just did summer slaughter Those are the same guys Yep, and then they partnered with martin or lander to do the Atlantic city open Um packs unplugged is another thing. They run the warhammer stuff for they've got killed team 40k. Oh, yeah, no like it was uh, when I was there the regular game of night was on a tuesday And you'd get like 40 people showing up to the game store to play all kinds of stuff Which is funny. Yeah, like you said, but they're so insular and it's like we drive through valley forge Which was a beautiful drive and I'm a history buff and I love it and the drive was great And then you drive out at like like one in the morning, right after you leave and you're just like wow, this is spooky Yeah Ah, but it's a good time Well, that's great, man. So, yeah, it sounds like there's a lot going on. Yeah, uh, One, it's uh, just give a quick rundown, uh, so we had some events over the weekend I mean if folks are really interested, of course, we've got robin Oh, hold on. I'm gonna put a pause on you real quick Okay, word.  I'll keep talking chat You'll still hear me We're gonna deal with the little thing here because I didn't know this would end at 40 minutes It didn't do it last time. It let me keep going So I just thought it would always let me do that, but it didn't it was only one time when we had three people So I'm gonna end my little call with the two of them bring it up on my other screen And we're gonna and I'm gonna keep talking to you about these events and stuff and while I'm while I'm organizing the new call chat You tell me whether you've been to an event and what are your thoughts on Uh, you going to the event so drop that in the chat right now Hit that like button for technical problems in the middle of the stream. It's all good. Yeah All right gentlemen, so remember me as I was chat frozen. That's right I'm gonna end this and then call you both back with a different thing Okay, we'll be right back in like 30 seconds. Okay. Here we go. Cheers, buddy Cheers guys Mm-hmm Everybody can still hear me life continues That's an annoying noise Now everybody gets to hear a phone Okay, so now we're gonna add somebody else to this there we go. Oh, why didn't you pick up?  All right. See we're all back folks. It was just that easy now I'm gonna be a tiny little square in the corner, but that's all right. It'll be the two of you Okay, and I'll just deal with being a tiny little square for right now well Okay, we're rocko your phone at this point. That's fine. Just make sure your phone's charged Oh, yeah, I can I can switch over to messenger Over here. Hold on.  He'll join back in a second. Isn't this fun? Isn't this just fun? Hey, there he is. We can't hear you now because it's not using your audio Okay, we're okay. There we go. See we're all back I got a real I got a real content creators. Mike guys. It's crazy. It's got a big old button too All right. Oh, Vince is gone. No, it's okay. I'm here. Okay. I'm here because what we're gonna do Is we're gonna make you two smaller. Oh, sorry. Sorry everybody That's the wrong buttons. There we go. There's that Okay, and there's that one. We're gonna talk about a second and there's that one that's up now And then we're gonna come over here So we're gonna grab you guys a little reformer a third of the screen. Yeah, there's some just some live reformatting No issues there Not at all and funny enough now my other camera is working. That's the one built in my laptop That's technology and then we're gonna move me Up here Okay, okay like that and cover Tyler's face Oh, and then I'll be this little square up here There we go. All right You love that super ugly But it's fine for now and I'll fix it for next time Hey, there we go And I'm mirrored too. So that's fun All right, so keep going Tyler you were saying let's talk about events Yeah, so we had a Good number of events over the weekend all around the world king in the north and Norway We had a some in the uk just a series for example We had three good ones in the u.s So just wanted to give a rundown of the top 10 for anybody interested But if you want all the details check out I was saying Robin Owens Monday show that they're always doing their stats center. It is fantastic So Let's start with blue sky summer open 30 players in washington we had Matthew with i'm just gonna do first names Matthew with null root. He went 5 0 the only 5 0 so sylvanas. They are back They are absolutely back. How about that rocko? I well listen man. I I I'm a fan of the trees I you know, I love the laurax. He speaks for the trees and get out of when the trees start speaking tree Is a joke I even say with living city because I just love The the the new version of the tree spirit aesthetic Big fan of it though. I got to say My guy who I've worked with on his list that got second place. I'm very proud of him If you could do the honors. Yes, sir jack ballard one and only really ones with side track I'm mad. It's a good place. Yeah, that's amazing Oh, his list is scary as all get out Yeah, we're gonna do some list trends. Maybe we can get into some of these a little bit later Uh, but just so we got dirk with reichenhorst condemned night hot going for one Yeah, and and third solid showing Yeah, fourth and fifth taker tribe six blister skin. I think a lot of us thought pleasure to courts outside And maybe somebody somebody like Uh, I am blanking uh bill susa Someone like bill, you know, who's a master at playing pleasure to courts really good at the game in general But I mean, there we go. Cody with blister skin another null roots A boulder head piece of chaos making the way in the top 10 and then a host of plisters to round out Pretty pretty good mixer. Yeah It's a healthy meadow when you get a little bit of everything like that and then sylvaneth came in there to take it Yeah, my mind's blown man. I love it. Yeah Gay gay way open the one I went to uh shout out to jeff his wife courtney and everybody involved with that one incredible event Uh, we had mergonc with petra fix elite going the only five oh Uh, taking it out if guys petra fix elite is amazing Uh, I got petra fixed, right? That's what we were saying yeah Ignoring or reducing run by one across the army machine gunning mystic shields from arcan Yeah, we roll saves on the more tech about everything is playable in that book right now including the gash It's a really good army Uh, walker with taker tribe for one getting best general Uh, brice my friend from springfield springfield crew. We had four guys go up all top 10 that pretty well Yeah, brice got best destruction fill up another beast of chaos dark walkers There you go, man that the late deep strike does work Yeah, you got best chaos going four one. We had a host arcanum I was six with best order hagnar Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Did you say the beast of chaos player got best chaos over his over? I know it's an amazing day. It's an amazing day Cats and dogs are just hanging out together now the world is it's it's a new world gentlemen. Yep Boulderhead taker tribe codles claw heavy source warrior and legion of the first prince rounding out the top 10 there Gentlemen any thoughts so far? I mean, I look it's the same thing. Uh It's it's the same thing I would say Uh across the board when you look at all these and we're going to talk about it later It's a tremendous amount of variation Yeah, you know like autumn lotus said to be fair. I wouldn't trust these numbers when people aren't all coming out for games I mean, I disagree like let's say I wouldn't trust the overall stats of percentages yet Because we don't have enough games in for that to look at like win rate and think about that stuff That's fine that I agree with But I think it's absolutely true that we're seeing a much broader meta than we had previously seen in 2.0 just the nature of the game being so much more focused on Like the things like battle tactics and the way you take the um The way that you deal with objectives The reality is is that you can score a win with good play because it's so much of a Like this edition feels like much more of a skill test than anything previous and so if you're piloting You know a lot of different things you can come out on top like that's the simple reality of the thing Right. Yeah, I agree. It was a I was in a one-day tournament local here out of a has a hobbies out in virginia um run by a garret from best coast pairings fame there and he uh Was it my second round a game was actually against a clubmate who was running gargant And it was I forget the name of it, but it's uh the three objectives. It's old shifting objectives and you know, he he took first turn he moved up and with my uh Living cities at when it was my turn. I only could play for one objective, but I played for the primary Um, I chose my battle tactic of like killing a mega gargant. They're killing it You know, so I killed the monster squared my battle tactic took The uh the important objective. I did it with a with a monster myself in the end And all of a sudden I I was either tied or ahead by a point with however the math worked out Right Yeah, I mean that's just that the the game stay closer if you're especially if you're on the new the the good Missions that are more new style scoring They tend to stay closer because it's like you generally score four to six That's kind of where it is like you score four to six. They score four to six You score four to six they score four to six and it's sort of In turn three four when you actually tend to accomplish some kind of points differential is what I tended to notice, right? I agree. I agree So, um You know, it's about making those good trades up to that point stuff like that So, yeah, I I'm encouraged by the fact that we've seen a lot of different Armies reaching into the meta being in top tens showing up in You know, either five or four one brackets things you wouldn't necessarily expect. I think it is pretty a pretty wide meta Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we could probably say Nash convince maybe in the hobby go into a little bit But then, uh, you know shout to jack Armstrong making his return Of course going five. Oh a just serious taking it out thunder lizard Also, to me meadows was the other five. Oh toby had done really well with that double cabbage Uh, a couple word shanners. We're not shaman timbritz two by three pigs He I think he went for one at his last event with that coming in like second He came in second again legion of the first prince. Oh, man. Pretty pretty interesting list. So but yeah Yeah, amazing amazing Friday guys. It's really great Yeah, when you look at all the different there was a lot of tournaments this weekend, right? Yeah, you look at all the top fives top tens whatever, you know, whatever you feel is is reasonable There was a lot of different, uh Uh There's a lot of different armies occupying that space, right? Oh, yeah I mean seeing sylvaneth on top in that That west coast gt Was like man, that was an amazing there's an amazing moment. It was a moment I didn't I don't think any of us thought was necessarily coming, right? And yet here it was right left field came out of there, man Just with with a very different list than what you saw in a lot of the uk stuff Like it wasn't a sort of aoe bomb out of the war song revenue, right?  No drycha. It was all right. There was no worse on revenant. No portal. There was dry Yeah, there was drycha a l'oreal treed ancient dirthu Two branch rates four by ten Yeah, that's right the no kernaugh list that you just look at you get No kernaugh Uh, yeah at any rate. Yeah, it was great. It was great stuff So we'll we'll get into it more when we talk about the the broadness of it But it was a lot of a lot of really good tournaments this weekend Yeah, yeah, and also shout out to uh, my dude, uh, Sean Blake in the chat there Yeah, we're getting trees some love one way or the other. There you go. There you go All right, so gentlemen, uh, any other news anything else we want to cover in the news section? I think we're good. All right In which case then let's get to some pick. Oh the week Okay, so Pick of the week Rocco you want to start us off? Oh sure. Hopefully my camera is now totally gone here. So It's been it has been solid. It was completely zoomed that was doing it for the future. I'm going to embed skype That's what we're going to have to use. I'll now know. Well, that's what we'll be doing from now on So there we are at any rate life continues Uh, talk about it hit me All right So as you can see I'm a man of many hats and uh, it's a literal for me Not just a saying and this is my re-rolling ones hat because I am their community manager for their discord Uh, also if you don't know me, hi, I'm a Rocco. Yeah boy Um, I have my own youtube channel where I teach people how to play warhammer and we go from Very beginner stuff all the way up to tournament, uh tips and tactics And I try to make the video shorter to be like a like a 10 to 15 minute sometimes a 20 minute blurb and set Like a three-hour slug And that way we can be very like No, no play listen I hold the record for the longest rant cast guest too at like six hours We can I could talk to paint drying if we got to go for time And uh, if you want to see me actually, uh use what I talk about So I'm not talking out my butt. Uh, over at the pants mafia aos YouTube channel.  I I'm Solidly in first place. You got to see if I kept that up there. Hmm. It was a good time That's very nice. I will all that will be linked down below Tyler, what about yourself? What do you got for picking the week? I really liked your recent video Rocco on the Whether to go first or not that's one way that's to that to me 3.0 is that I've had to Break out of the 1.0 2.0 pattern I've always given my my opponent first term If I have a choice just to play with that double because that is much less the case now my experience with 3.0 Oh, yeah, you really sometimes just want that extra command point to to do an extra combo or they You know have a move up or you just walk up onto the point and say like, okay, you can't move me dps Check me. There's yeah, exactly. And then there's battle tactics going into it. There's all kinds of extra moving parts Yeah, but that's later in this episode too. We're gonna be talking about that. We will. Yeah, totally Yeah, so two quick ones flying monkey con. So yeah two tournaments. So the last A few weekends here flying monkey con There was a review of it by the iron realms podcast with buck paul They had charles fox the to just really good discussion kind of an old school Warhammer tournament pod going through their games Enjoyed that. Paul, right? Paul, right? Yeah Yeah, I've helped him with deepkin list before he goes by paul is right on a few different Uh things through his different socials great guy. Yep, great guy great list great player He's he was rocking a double turtle and go trick went for one very scary list Yeah Yep Yeah, he's good too. Which is the best part. He is. Yeah, he's he's very solid. So yeah, that was good.  It was paul. This was fun. Was it paul? Yeah, yeah paul. Yeah, yeah I just caught paul conzi's new video radio free hammer haul Breaking down the bow tactics very apropos to tonight's discussion. Yes It was a great video. I watched it too. Also linked down below already My Pick of the week. Yes, indeed My pick of the week is going to be the honest wargamer stat center from this week If you want to hear all about a deep dive of the tournament results that we sort of discussed quickly The lists and all of that of course it is rob and the Owen Jackson Oh my oh and Jackson. What a doll. What a guy getting together to talk about The multitudinous events this weekend and the incredible results coming out of many of them including our Our friend of the show. He's been downgraded to just friend of the show Tom lions who took uh best overall and best painted at nash con. So It was a great weekend for him.  I'll say that much. He had some he had some tough games And uh, he was playing ko which as you know, he was firmly behind to being others So bad the current meta and there's no way I can actually win and Run in his mouth And then he goes five and oh Now certainly he was aided by the two list format of of nash con which I do stand behind and think More tournaments should adopt. I think it's absolutely the right way Like you want to know how to balance the meta you create the two list format That's the bottom line Like it is one of the easiest ways to balance the meta because it stops skews dead Because you can have anti skew in the lists, right? It's just like it. So anyways Uh So tom won it would all with ko. Uh, he had a convincing victory. He was something like 11 points over his nearest competitor for his first place win So it was great. It was a very happy moment for him To to get that get both of his swords So he did those are real freaking swords. That was david's trophies are real swords. Yes I I need to go to the midwest who would all y'all are doing. I'm just playing for money by me. This is just Money and I won a city's book at one of the tournaments. I won which is what started that whole path, but man swords Uh, yes the somebody asked uh frog arm asked what is the two list format? Sure. So I'll just explain very quickly nash con The tournament we just did last weekend uses a two list format and somebody said it's like war machine hordes That's very apropos. Um, effectively you can bring two lists. They have to be from the same faction Though they may contain different units. They may have any change from as minor As a single artifact or something like that being different up to completely different units and constructions And what that allowed people to do was have different sort of lists For example, one of tom's lists had go track and one did not Which was you know, like go track is very powerful, but he does have weak spots There were a couple people running drac foot there for example and go track is not a winner Against that build No, um, but also it's still powerful because the drac foot person then knows exactly what list tom is going to play Right like when tom shows them these two lists the drac foot player goes I can play whatever list I think is best against the one. I know you're playing Because you're definitely not taking your go track list No So at any rate it was uh, it's a great format. It allows for if you want either a minor change or a transformative sort of sideboard and Um, the you know, some people you can still maybe have a skew list And maybe somebody has a normal list But you have better chances to counter them because you don't have to go with one list It does just provide for more interesting meta as I looked up and down the the tables There was just a lot more There was a lot of variants In those top, you know, eight tables of what all was playing um, and uh And so it was it it creates sort of an interesting situation um people would normally have sort of uh Yeah, people normally have had took sort of two different lists that were interesting in two different ways Right Um, so yeah at any rate, um, I see some people saying like I'd encourage excuse I understand your the the argument there in this case What we've seen is that it either either most people bring Pretty minimal shifts and run kind of be hard behind one list Uh, or or they use one to be like a specific to do a specific thing And then they use a different list to do a different thing, right? Like that's kind of how it comes down Um, and so like generally they'll have one that's asking a hard question And one that's giving a hard answer is often how it works out, right? Yeah, but anyways, we found it to be very very very positive So there you go. Yeah, that's crazy. Oh, sorry. I just want to say one thing. Yes crazy horse I did realize I sit the midwest. They're all midwesterners I'm so sorry. Tennessee is this dirty south Also, it's jacob barry there. So I really shouldn't forget where it is. Sure. There were there were somebody said What's the archion per table ratio? I believe there were Uh, seven archions the venue and seven go tracks are six archions and seven go tracks something like that over 64 players um the the person who took best chaos and third overall had Archion in one of their two lists and was my round five game So there you go because we were we were effectively playing for third from where we were I think On table three Yeah, I was just going to say that I On paper I think it's easy to think that the two List format would lead to more skews and would just generally be a net negative And but I agree with vents. I mean, that's not what we've seen over the the years of the data and information coming out of nash con And so yeah, uh, it's it's at least worked at nash con I don't we haven't seen this two list format at many tournaments So maybe there would be some new information that would come to light if we saw more tournaments You know something like the macro view of it would change but but so far it's been it's been quite positive And and just as a question because it's not an ITC event, right? I don't know. It is not so it's not really drawing that kind of a crowd like you go in there to try to win a freaking sword Which is very cool. It seems like even though it's a tournament Maybe a little bit more relaxed share the lists are hard Because you still get in the archons and the go tricks, but it seems to attract a certain kind of crowd Sure And I think that that works in its favor I know it's in my round two I was playing against a marathi go-trek dock list and Jacob berry was like a table or two tables down from me and in the middle of the game He was like, oh come on and he ripped off his shirt and then was playing shirtless and tiny bike shorts for the rest I had him at aco. He's a trip man. He is he he took best sports again. He wins best sports like he's I Like like it's his job. He is a he is a unique competitor. Anyways, okay So, uh, yes, check out the honest wargamer. That's our picks of the week Right on okay We're gonna close that so that doesn't beep anymore because that's really annoying And uh, yeah, we're gonna then move on to some hobby time All right gentleman glad I just fixed my camera indeed Rocko, what do you've been hobbying on? What's what's on your table? Tell me about your hobby time So like I was so I was also just a part of the animosity campaign with a bunch of narrative stuff going on which was a great experience and it Got me to do more of my writing because I'm also known for my short stories and stuff But it also got me to doing like little conversions on my deepkin And nice little potato ish cam I did a like the the squig the squid the squid face coming out of my eye the line to be an eldritch horror My deepkin is painted to be the uh, the horrors of the deepkin that fun little Like black black and white with a sin city like a red as an accent color from blood dripping everywhere kind of style and it's definitely been helping me, uh get my button gear And that's why some of my tournaments Like I said, I was looking out in November December because I I got a private paint all that That's not my my strong suit in the hobby, but I found a nice my nice paint scheme that works for me That's a lot of dry brushing that um, it works And I'm happy for it. Come on very nice. That looks thank you. Love it Uh, Tyler, what about yourself, man? What would you uh, yeah, what uh, you you went to a tournament this weekend Yeah, as you mentioned you took best order. Wait. Well done. Well done. Thank you, sir. Yeah Yeah, so I was one darn more tech guard away from top table round five, but it's not like a very similar experience To you vans But yeah, just couldn't yeah that patch facts amazing. Yeah daughters came they you know It's only the mortal wounds that you have a choice. So Well, we were playing in veins of gir and I was just playing conservatively playing for round four and five When I know Went in on rounds four and five going to get the priority in five Which definitely probably would have sealed it as well and just came up one more tech short So hey, it happens good game against more gong great player And uh, but yeah, let's see. I played stormcast to SOB to suns tribes Uh, savage they're brutal on savage games Yeah, they are that that kick in the four point turning into two point. We were playing it I don't know if everybody's playing it this this way, but we were playing it where any objectives in the middle Even if you hold off like two or three in the case of against giants, you're only getting two points You don't get the correct way to play. Yes, that's You're not doing two per objective. It's not doing two per objective. Yeah So that that was rough because it was Very difficult to keep giants Uh, it was walker. I think he's a viewer of this show Good guy. He played giants incredibly well. He was running the gate breaker and a crack and As a as a power repair and just yeah, I think the mistake I made I'm accustomed to giving if I have the choice Giving my opponent top of two when raffi is still fully buffed And I probably should have taken it and just actually pinned him in his deployment And I think that would have helped in terms of the scoring sequence um Few things kind of got off that game, but he played it really well and I almost clawed it back But not quite so but no, uh, awesome tournament Uh, we'll get into a few things with it that that were done differently than traditional You know so far out of the book 3.0. Yeah, I wanted to comment on but yeah, no good time. I'm excited Yeah, for myself, uh, I did not get as much time to hobby this week as I was hoping Because I was at a tournament. So I went I went to nash con obviously as we mentioned Ended up going 3-1-1. So I did get the the almost impossible to achieve draw Ironically it was against, uh, Noah who is a fantastic player. He's He's on like the etct or world's team or something like that. He's like their captain. I think I don't I don't remember exactly how it is He's somebody with that who's involved with worlds where they have to go and do the 2.0 thing I'm not tapped into that. Yeah, so Um, but he was a great player. He was also running cities of sigmar tempest I So it was it was a tempest I off, but he had the dwarves bridge 420 blaze it list Um, he never bridged the dwarves. So that was you know, I did manage to hold him off that Uh, and it came down to a hard draw Uh, so that was a good city's off Like a complete tie same number of grand strategies same number of battle tactics exact same score Down the line draw That is really impressive that happened that way. It was uh, it was a heck of a game Uh, yeah, my my my run was fec Uh, uh, so it went fec then marathi go track dock then cities tempest I 420 blaze it then, uh squiggard The boss of jorke And then uh, and then host of the yeah, the dude was doing real well Um, I think after so I beat him in round four and I think his round five was against my round three opponent So he had to play two tempest dialysis in a row. Oh, which was unfortunate probably for him Yeah, um, and then my last round was against anthony trant nelly who is the I believe top ranked itc player in the country right now Yes, he is you had to run yourself there man. And he is an amazing player and a super nice guy and uh, definitely given david Some run for for the most attractive man in american, uh, warhammer. Let me just say I mean, he's That's that sucklage there. I don't know what's all that's all the ground I understand that jack lately on his last video there Look, there's there's we'll we'll do the calendar show sometime. Okay. Okay, uh, so the um But he was a great player. He was running a host of the host of the ever chosen. No knights the empty throne Sorry, there we go. Yeah, uh, he's trying to nice the empty throne. So you had, you know, the six baron guard This is in power in numbers where if there's battle line, you can't take the objective My battle line was three by five outriders. His battle line was 20 marauders 20 marauders and 20 chaos warriors With marauders having their own pocket. We're trying to buff them So It was at a bit of a downside, but it was a it was a real Really fun game. I think he made a comment. I'll paraphrase him here slightly But I enjoyed this comment. He ended up winning the game. It was 14 13 to him. He won at the end Uh, he won on a single priority roll that came down. He rolled a three I needed to roll a three to retain priority because I had gone first in that turn if I had rolled a three plus Then I could have burned both the points and I would have won the game because he was out of battle tactics to achieve and uh And I would have I would have got there was no more those are the last two objectives on the board There was literally nothing else to score. I had already killed out his grand strategy I was going to accomplish mine. So I would have won but I rolled a one against his three He won the priority he burned all points and he beat me by one point So such as life, you know all came down to a single nice roll Um, but it was funny. He said something to the effective when I first started list I thought it was going to be easy because your list looks like crap And I said, hey, I'm gonna understand, you know, it's uh, that's that was the nature of this insane tempest I think I put together but uh, but it was fun and it was a very unique list and I was it was a lot of Uh, it was a very interesting list to run. So I had a great time Anthony was like Super nice super gracious incredibly great player like a duh I'd play him again in warhammer anytime. He ended up getting my favorite game vote because I mean It was just like it was to the nines man the whole time. Like it was it was a game five of game fives. So Nice can't complain about that And so, uh, I I'm sure that you know that that list is Scary as because those those those uh, six varanguards are just about impossible to kill Like it's it's 30 wounds on a two up save ignoring a lot of rend for most of the game Yeah, you know when you put it that way. Yeah, okay. I can see some issues Yeah, I mean they're just because they're usually like anywhere from plus two to three to save most Yeah, yeah, and they can get access to a spell ignore two, right? Oh, yeah, they had two spell ignores.  Yeah, so they're they're basically magic proof Um, so they're they're not easy to bring down Uh, anyways, it was a great game and a great time and now I'm back to painting my Uh, storm rats. That's what we're on about now. So uh, here's the next one. He's very early in progress I've have I have three done Nice number four So I'm getting close To a whole unit Once I have five I'll have a unit done. Won't that be exciting? Hey, man, I'm a fan of skig, you know, if we ever go back to the game in hiatus Blur send me. It's ready. They're coming together slowly. It takes a while I've worked the recipe and I have it down to about 12 hours per per model now. So Without the base. So that's pretty reasonable. That that seems doable Hmm, that's wild So more power to you, man. I like I said, I found a way to dry brush my stuff to make it look That is I'm known for playing games not painting and that is that is pressure you got on you Uh, it's all good. It's all good. So, um, yeah, there I really like the scheme and I really love how it's turning out Although it does take a it takes oodles of time, but that's fine. So again, it's all worth it It's all worth it for my beautiful scaven rat cast. They are you do such a good job, man Oh, well, thank you. That's not I wasn't fishing for a compliment, but I appreciate that very much All right, uh, okay Uh lay Lay, I'm gonna say lay, but rigby says I haven't played since third Ed Vince's channel has dragged out my old minis from the attic. That's fantastic Yeah, that's beautiful. Will the rat cast feature in any future videos? Oh, yes, I can't do this much work on an army and not make videos out of it Like making videos takes a lot of time. So Yes, they were there to be in some videos. You bet Very nice. Very nice. Uh, all right. So gentlemen, shall we get to our main topic this week? Absolutely I'm down. All right So our thoughts so far Uh, let me go ahead and grab that timestamp All right All right, so cool Thought so far on aos 3.0 before we get into any specifics without going into anything we're going to cover I just want to do a quick temperature check here Uh on a scale of one to ten One being you hate it and wish we had never made this edition move and are angry about everything 10 being you are Five seconds away from hitting leave meeting and going and wanting to play another war hammer game right now Where do you find yourself after your experiences in 3.0 thus far? Rocco hit me eight Eight, okay Yeah, I am I've been enjoying it. I've been enjoying the extra tactical depth of all these extra decisions you have to make You know whether to to do the the fall back in the movement phase, you know trying to set up better unleashed hells trying to Go where with armies and builds With the uh, do you go the one drop? Do you go with some of these new battalions? I'm big on hunters of the heartlands myself. So a lot of my lists end up being four drops Some people do the double battle regiment to do extra stuff. Some people fish for all the different artifacts There there is a lot more We can get crunchy with it And if you want to do that You're free to and if not throw it on the battle regiment and then get into the crunch somewhere else Yeah, yeah, I want to know your number two by the way chat hit me with that number drop it in the comments While you're already typing why not move your mouse and hit the like button too You're already typing a number. You're so close. Just hit that's it's right there Absolutely, and don't forget to subscribe too. Those are these are all good things you could do They're all buttons roughly in the same area as where you're typing a comment Uh, tyler, where are you? Yeah, and eight feels about right. Maybe eight and a half not sure. I'm quite a nine, but um, Love in the addition.  I'm not sure, you know, like what's the one one and a half that's not there yet I think it's Some of the problematic units, you know, like there definitely are, you know, some of the edges are pretty rough right now But uh, the games have been incredible. I've played 10 tournament games so far last few weeks yet to have a loss that wasn't incredibly close And part of you know part of it is I'm not finishing all five rounds I'm getting to like round four in some of these games, which is on me I've been known to not play quite fast enough particularly early in my first round So that's yeah loving loving the addition Yeah, I could say you know say a little more later about it, but I think it's pretty pretty fascinating Okay. All right right on I will say I'm at a solid eight as well. It's a it's a universal number across this this uh, this cast There are things that I think are temporary like I want the FAQ. Where are we at with our seven week slash four week FAQ Seriously release the FAQ my goodness gracious I'd love it if we got some battle tones at the same time, maybe not Because I'm not sure I'm going to love everything that's in those battle tones with all the grand strats and battle tactics That might be delivered, but I guess we'll see on that So, you know, there are some edges there. There are some things I worry about stuff like the complexity especially for newer players Especially when combined with certain armies those are real challenges that I I'm not sure they're they've really directly answered And and that I think are our problems but But on the whole I have like I mean I went played five games this weekend got back and I could have played another game the next day You know like it was that's the dream. It was it. I really enjoy it. I really love the I don't know. I really love how all the different units feel what I'll say Like I I will say that I feel like I'm playing a lot more interactive game, but that comes to the cost Yes That's the answer Uh, but yeah solid eight looking through the chat I see lots of looks like lots of basically six through nines There's a couple fives floating around, but I didn't see anything really too much lower than a five. So that's good stuff. That's great Uh, okay, so good point nine spencer. Perfect. Yes. I see I see lots of sevens eights. Nines. I lost stuff like that Uh, so okay rock on that's good. I think I think it's really solid We just need to sand down a few edges and I think we're in a good place here like maybe by releasing an FAQ No, that's fair that you know and Also, if that new book could drop so I can say or see if this video I want on everybody's favorite ally the Night azeros to re-roll ones to hit still has that rule that'd be cool. Yeah, we're all we're all waiting I look that's just the thing I'm happy to keep my night of zero so letting me re-roll ones for as long as they want to let me do that Because I have a feeling that rule is going away No, no that it's it's gone gentlemen. Look if it's plus one to hit everything within 10 inches instead I'm gonna be like yep fine. I'm good. Sure right cheaper. Hurricane them. Okay. Yeah, exactly like hello hurricane. I'm number two Now it's a lumen arc for me. I just I just I see no issues here whatsoever. So sounds good All right You guys You didn't remind me about the the potential for gacha hammer. Remember hammer is never higher never been higher In my in my experience like I've never had to play. I'm gonna pick out like Throw them up to like 30 tokens playing Daughters of Cain Two things I mentioned to events going to this show is that I'm gonna start writing out my opponents battle tactics for their turn And putting it right in front of my face. Oh, I do that all the time. It's it's yes I have a notebook. I bring a legal pad with me Stuffed out Oh man Yeah, there's definitely more of an element of member hammer of gotcha hammer like, you know, um Dose green said should we talk about complexity creep yet? I mean not yet But it's gonna be a topic like we mentioned it a little in our big challenges of 3.0 show Yes, because like we we did talk about it already What I really want to save that for is again once we start seeing all these different battle tomes and what they contain And you know, like do they do the appropriate things and simplify some of these choices out? Or do they uh, or do they go the opposite direction? I have a feeling. I know which way will end up Uh, but you know, I'm hopeful It's question mark there. There you go. That's the appropriate question mark Uh, but yeah, I mean that's like But we'll see but we'll see Yeah, all right. Yeah, um psi 915 says third feels too much like 40k right now with new missions PSI, I'd love to know what you mean by that. I don't that's I don't know 40k well enough Uh, that's me like the score one score two score more kind of thing and then you have they pick secondaries Just on the objective scoring or what I'd be interested. I could see that Uh, all right, so Yeah Let's talk about some so what we're gonna do in this show is our thoughts. We've broken our thoughts into several different topics Okay, so just things that we thought deserved either a fresh look or something like that So the first one here is missions Uh, or battle plans or scenarios or whatever you want to think of them as that's fine I have separated them here in the most sort of simple way possible into good neutral and bad In my estimation after playing through all of these I have played everyone in the book now most of them probably multiple times Yeah And because I'd say I'm after the tournament I know I'm over 30 games, but I don't know how many more beyond that So, you know, it's somewhere between like probably 30 and 40 plus games Uh, yeah same. Yeah, and throw in some of the new path to glory stuff too. I got some thoughts on that But that's not what we're here for Right, right. So the point is we've got some we've had a chance to round this all out Right to play through all this stuff to really get an experience Yeah, and and I divide them up into good is savage gains first blood Feral flurry the vice marking territory and power struggle although I'll say Marking power struggle needs an asterisk because that's Assuming we get an FAQ answer so that the mission is actually playable with a sense of rules that we can understand And working territory is the worst for gotcha hammer Maybe or maybe second worst because tell the tell the people what's the game Well, you just play bad if you do that. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's getting good Yeah, yeah Marking territory is obviously a new knife to the heart where the combination of side shift Plus the way that the the mission wins out where you major victory is, you know, somebody takes a Somebody takes a point in round two They control three points. It flips to round two. They gain they they get priority They're just going to go second remove yours. They win. It just suddenly happens. Hey, hey guys, don't let your Play conservatively enough builds Sure, there are ways to answer it, but it's like again, that's a very unfriendly scenario, right? Like that is a So it is what it is The vice is fun. The vice is super fun. My problem with the vice is that like If you have a mega monster This is my only problem with the vice like we let's we let me let me read the whole People can see the whole list. So let's just start going through these for once I'm gonna let's talk about our thoughts on each of these just quickly Savage gains we need the FAQ answer. It should be two if you hold, you know any not two for each That's how it was ruled at Nash con sounds like it was ruled of your way at that The correct way in your game as well or your term as well, tyler Do you have any other problems with savage gains? I think it's a Fantastic scenario top to bottom like giants are super strong in there admittedly because they can kick things around like that's not You know, it is what it is, but I think it's a great scenario Yeah, yeah 100%. Yeah, I it's Yeah, rocker. What do you think? I you know, and I had it ruled the other way where the middle objectives were each worth two Um, and it was still fun. It was still fun playable. It it was a good time Um, no complaints. It was I played, uh, my living cities versus, uh Nurgle the the ones were they I when they died in melee on a two up they blow up and I actually had a frost phoenix Just hold the line So well with that nigglin wound trait and it I was just just stole every objective. I never died I was never in threat of dying. It was a great time Yeah, nice nice Uh first blood So so PSI did say the hold hold many hold more and the battle tactics feels too much like you and your opponent Are not playing the same mission which is similar when it's interesting because my experience has been exactly the opposite Uh, like in my estimation the hold one hold two hold more was the best thing they did Because it keeps the scores contained all the missions that play like that are actually to me the good missions because They like what tends to happen is round one you'll score four to six You're trying to eke out small advantages.  You're trying to eke for that one point But points remain relatively close in the good scenarios, you know round one two usually even three Right, you don't get blowouts where somebody can just run up the clock You know like super high and then you're just like, oh, I guess I can't mathematically win this like that just very rarely happens In the good base scenarios and that's because of the one two three One two more I should say Scoring system right where you can score one or two or three points off the the main objectives And what I found is it kept games interesting and even it kept people playing and playing for the win Even when they had reduced resources it gives you a chance to come back more Like it just felt good also like the ability to yeah pay attention to your opponents battle tactics and deny them Again feels really good. We'll talk a little bit more about battle tactics and strategies in a moment Okay first blood basic scenario Like it is the basic templatized scenario of this edition I have no issues with it whatsoever other than the fact that they added the whole vantage point thing Just to make it feel like it had something going on And my honest answer is like you don't actually need to care about it. It doesn't actually matter I've never once like if I happen to have the vantage point cool if I don't I don't care Yeah, like I just move on with my life and go about scoring my battle tactics Exactly like a command point is not worth actually disrupting your battle strategy for now Yeah, I find that one to be the the best of the three objectives in the middle or one of the best at least Yeah, I like I like the Space that we have between us. There's quite a quite a bit of space between the deployment zones, which is a Because yeah, because it's on the 22 because it's on the diagonal. It's on the diagonal. Yeah, okay, it's the three blocks on the Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep So that's that's been nice getting a little more space in there. Yeah has has been has been cool So yeah, big fan of that one. Yeah, I agree the way that that one spreads you out Actually means you've got quite a no man's land In there and so the three objectives because they're also on the hypotenuse Right and like that's why veins of Ger and tectonic interference. The other the other like primary sort of Three ones Are in the control for me one. They're very random This is not really skill testing and two. They're only 11 inches apart Right in there or sorry, uh 15 inches apart. I thought just 15 inches apart and they're just too close Right, whereas the the vertical being on the hypotenuse actually makes a big difference Yeah, because you get a lot more space in between the two given especially where you start at And and I'll be honest I wasn't the biggest fan of star strike to start with because I just had the You know and it it's one of those recency biases for me where it's just like every time I play it This happens, but I swear I could control two thirds of that board and they just have a board edge And that is where all of the objectives would land And now with veins of Ger and it's there What was it? It's a you roll a seven. It's dead metal. It's like two through six seven is dead middle and then eight through 12 is other side. Yeah so I Yeah, they're trying to address it so it doesn't Seem as random and there's only nine spots that could land But I'm with you with it being neutral still. I just Yeah, ferro 4a to me is actually one of the standouts. It might be my favorite scenario in the addition Oh, why honestly because it's a six objective scenario.  You can only burn one objective per turn That is a good trick. That is actually makes you really think about what you're burning and win and how right? Yeah Um, just the nature of ferro 4a. It's a really well designed scenario, right? 22 inch no man's land in the middle Uh, like it it's just it's so solid in how it plays Because you really have to like think about your tactics. When are you pushing? When are you not? Uh, I love it. I think ferro 4a is to me the absolute standout. It's super fun Yeah, so yeah, I agree. Yeah, we talked about events after the show dan You know, I told you, you know, we could two after after playing it that it would be in my top five Just what it does to the game and yeah, it's it's the six objective done really well I think that might be a nice change or fix to power numbers Is to simply remove the ability to burn all the objectives and power numbers that that would help out That went a lot just mimic what we have with ferro 4a in that regard. No, I wouldn't complain I uh That was my one law. It was in the one day tournament. I just played the power in numbers was the game three It was actually a tempest dive versus my living city and I got double turned horribly. I stopped the bridge, but you know what? It was we were so close He could still run up his dwarves and then double turn and be before 20 blazing on the on the sand still in the next turn Yeah, so he didn't care and that uh, if I had won the priority I just coming off the table edge take his back three objectives very easily, you know go about my business And god, I think I I rolled a five. He rolled a six and it's like, okay That's cool. We'll just play for battle tactics and stuff because they the way the scoring worked in the tournament If you still scored all your extra stuff, you did good I got fifth out of 20 just from getting all my extra battle And uh, I nicked him enough. He didn't win. He got second Yeah, you know that worked nice. Yeah, the vice. I really like a lot It's the longest dead zone in the middle at 24 inches Because it still has like the sort of old school old map deployment zone because it can do that because it's lengthwise It's easier to play lengthwise if you're still using the same size general table on a smaller board as it were Like we had very generous space in between the tables, which was Wonderful at Nashcon.  You're you're measuring devices and things Oh jeez. I like I just I I know to those are always cramped for space But man, I'd rather have 20 less people at the tournament if it meant we all had room to play comfortably So I guess COVID silver lining. I don't know. Um I hear you. I hear you. So but the problem my only problem with the vice is if you have a sort of unkillable character If you you're sort of archaons and go treks and things like that They are they basically say I get all the points return four and five Yes, because I'll go sit here in the middle and you can't come touch me Because if you come near me, I'm going to obliterate you right like I will just build up my whole army around whatever I've got Left will buff the monster character and sit around them.  Yeah So like it's it's interesting in how it moves and how it forces you to spread It definitely rewards movements in you know, like movement Capability mobility, I guess is what I'd say in round three But in round four or five it rewards just like hey, I need to sit still and kill anything comes near me So you have to kind of think about that in advance, right? And like can I run up the score in some way in those earlier rounds? That's that's what I had done by the way because he had that city's player with the 420 blazer that I was talking about that I was against also had go trek in their list with all the iron Greeks Right, so I was like well, he's gonna own the vice point in turn four and five So I was like I went to great distances to take his point away In two turns or whatever so that way I could have I could get the score one score two score more Right So Whereas I knew my points were still well protected and he couldn't get at them, right? Um, so anyways that kind of stuff And you had fly high on your boats right to play that that teleporting reposition game too. Well, there's that. Yes There's the fly high on the boats. There's you know, like super fast the right gyro copters and Outriders and stuff like that who can you know go real far and fast anyways The only negative I've heard on this one is when you get match ups that you have say two melee armies That are kind of similar and they're standing and looking at each other. Right. Yeah, I could see that Yeah, I've heard some of those instances, but in general, you know, I more often than not you're gonna get match ups that have enough Rock paper or you know rock paper scissors to them You got a shooting army Therefore the melee army needs to go after them as opposed to just staying staying around in any shot Or you know, you've got like I played iron jaws versus suns and I didn't want to wait until round four To try to compete against suns in the middle of the board So that meant I need to get my dps check passed by round three. So I went in hard You know, I started going in round two and then went in really hard round three and and just yeah It's kind of I'm seeing more things like that. I was worried about this one But yeah, there seems to be enough nuance and yeah, like for the most part pretty pretty intriguing Yep, I agree Uh, we already talked a little marking territory in its downsides power struggle. It needs the FAQ Uh, on the neutral side, Banezaker and tectonic interference again There's sort of three on the horizontal in the middle that already is a problematic setup And as well then they also have this random element where it's just like, oh, you accidentally lost the game You know, you played smart you tried to cover your spaces, but you can't cover the whole board I mean just the nature of this world, right? Like that's just if you're you can cover the whole board easily You probably already won the game right? It's very rare that you can just like spread out cover everything uncontested And you can just be like, oh, I played really well, but then this die rolled and it was like oops Oops, all berries lost the game, you know, like I yeah You know, there was nothing really you could control I I controlled as much of the board as I theoretically good without instant losing And then I lost and right on that table edge, man. There it is. I controlled two thirds of it every tournament That style of the game comes in and I'm just like no Can't do it. Yeah, but uh Yeah, and then uh power numbers again. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was just gonna say, yeah, I'm veins like I I get it and I was talking about this earlier that I definitely have a bias against castle armies Which is kind of ironic because I mean like daughters of kane is a very castley type army for the most part So, but you know, I I like that it does push Castle armies. Sure. Although there are other missions that push castle armies, which is good I do I certainly find veins more intriguing than tectonic interference Because tectonic is simply the three in the middle, which does generally reward, you know, fire slayers Or, you know, nergal name your pick hanging out in the middle putting bodies up a blocking up a bunkering But yeah, I I don't know. I I still think I would still probably put veins Like low goods like it wouldn't be among my first five choices But would happily see it in a pack especially if it's within that category of consideration with say the power numbers And feral feral foray As the the missions that have the six objectives Those those are starting you out as well. I kind of see it playing that role And I mean look, I you know, I played obr He would have been in a tough spot if the objective had landed on the far right But he had enough in that army to where he could have contested it. It's just that he was waiting He he wasn't equitably distributed with his power So he could he had some choices that he could have made to do that a little bit more. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yep Survival the fittest. I don't have many thoughts on it's just it's Fine It's fine Yeah, it's it's like super neutral. I don't I don't particularly love it. I don't particularly hate it It's like the most neutral of the neutral ones for me I don't I don't have much to say on it. I mean tyler any thoughts on it. I I literally mine is like it's fine You know, actually, I haven't even played this one. Have you guys played it rock? Are you getting games in with this one? Uh, I did once early on and it was so memorable. I couldn't even tell you what happened Yeah, I just I don't like the vanilla and pray chosen thing and it's like it's such a silly mechanic and Oh that one. Yeah, you score the button for killing the yeah Yeah, it just it to me it screams like it's a narrative game Right. I don't doesn't it though it like if this was a narrative scenario, I'd be like, yeah, this is perfect This is what I want to be doing. It just I don't it feels too goofy too clever.  How dare he those cats were great Uh, I would love it in a book with that as a little campaign pack thing. Yep Uh power in numbers. I grow to hate more and more every day Every time I play it. I hate it a little more I just find it to be a super problematic scenario Like and it's not just because it was my round five where I lost by one point It's because like it's because of the fundamental Misalignment that happens where some armies have really tremendously good battle line That they want to take in mass numbers that are nearly impossible to shift Yes, and it's like, okay. Well as long as those are alive, you can't take the point That's it, right? Like you're not going to overwhelm them now Some armies can still come in and do really well there, you know Hey, a taker tribe is going to love marching in with their battle line 30 counting mega Isn't that a great day for them, you know But because they can just walk up take it from you burn it Right and that's my other problem with power in numbers is that you can just burn any number of objectives you want There's no actual reason like if you The way the points work out if you hold it into turn three unless you're positive You're gonna hold it to turn five. You should just burn. Yeah, because it's one two four nothing eight Right is how the math works Right and so it's like it it it leads to these really weird math jumps In your scoring where you like you think you're in a good place But you miscount it and then all of a sudden they burn one Wait, you burned yours for well, hold on if I burn mine then but if I I'll get two But if we till next time I get four But then if they hold this then they can get four But if I can't move this then they could burn for eight and it's just like uh And then your brain explodes, right? And then battle tactics come into play too because if you burn all of them too early You're like wait and then I then I drop a couple battle tactics Oh, I didn't do my grand strategy wait Did they just win without ever getting to hold a point to burn? Yeah, so it's just it's a weird scenario That just leads to weird math and I hate it more and more every time I play it Because of the sort of delta of some armies, you know, like some armies you can play and you're like Hey, I'm loving this all day and all night, right? I just this is so this is so easy And uh and then some of them you're just you feel like you're you're nailed to the wall from minute one Yes Yes And that's not because necessarily the way you built your list. It's just you don't have there the tools don't exist in your army to make that choice right So rocko, I have thoughts on this one, but why don't you go? What what do you think about power numbers overall? Well, you know like I was saying that actually the last time I played it really was they they took all the objectives burned them early And then couldn't score battle tactics. So I almost went in the end Uh that that actually happened. It was hysterical. Uh But it Again, it's it's a haves and have nots. It's it's something where if it's in a pack known beforehand It can affect list building. Yep where but you know like I'm city So I'm like, okay, and I I I do have a frost phoenix and 20 phoenix guard. I I love this normally Uh and also someone who can teleport 30 iron drakes that can shoot all my phoenix guard I can't roll enough four ups in the world man Um And it you know, it's it's one of those things where elite armies are going to struggle Unless your gargants and you count as 30 models because then it that it doesn't matter You know your hand battle line Yeah, yeah So rocko if you're let's say you're gonna adapt con which normally never releases the Missions in advance and you know that power numbers may be a possibility Is that changing your list? Is that changing how many battle line units or the amount of battle line you're putting in your list? so for a lot of people That you know, usually you just take the three and you go on but for for me. I've since The last ghb came out that put emphasis on battle line I always try to put an extra unit of battle line anyway just have four where if it is Something like like this power numbers would come up even as a thought I would be like, okay cool I forgot one unit of like say like a fast calvary thing if it's deep kidding on bringing eels if it's cities, you know, I I would love the outriders and tempest I And it's something that I could threaten just by my presence being there You know, it's the it's the storm cast thing from before where it's like Oh, the griffon is now just an area of denial bubble Just the threat of that being there like that threat if I have the force battle line I can move up in a grass if I need to you have to deal with that Is why I and I've just kept that mindset the whole time So personally I I'm sneaking an extra battle line in if I can Even with my at my living city because again, I could pop out from the sides You know when the trees start speaking tree and all of a sudden you got well now with The coalition rules. I can't do it with dryads Or a tree maybe I can't do it with it won't count for my battle line, but it is a battle line There's an FAQ question Yeah, so Yeah, yeah So in that case, yeah, you know I'm still if it if it's a possibility if I know the the torrent organizing like yeah, man screw power in numbers I'm not telling anybody, but you know, it's like, yeah, we're not doing it. I'm like, okay I won't think about it, but because it's in that ecosystem I still got to look at it. Yeah, I have a simple answer for you, Tyler Sure, if I thought I could get away with switching something without losing any potency of my list In which case I'm a have because I have great battle line. I could have taken anyways Right like so sure if I happen to be playing in an army where I can choose different units that happen to be Battle line and not diminish my list Right, like if I'm in daughters or something where I've just got all the good choices in the world and most of them I can make battle line in my army Right in the ways I would want Sure, maybe I get rid of five Lifetakers or something and end up with an extra unit of of Or you know an extra unit of snakes of some kind or or witches or whatever right as different kinds of chaff Maybe oh, yeah, did that materially change like did I bring a more balanced list because of that? No, right, which is where you're driving with this right But but the answer is I'm not going to materially change my list if just like I'm not taking bad units Okay Just because I need more things that say the word battle line on them Because then overall I'm not I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face Right. I got four other games.  Yeah, and so like it made me play different But it didn't make me list build any different because I didn't have any other good choices Hmm Yeah, I'd be curious to go through a breakdown of all the different factions and look at this in detail in terms of the have Have nots argument. I mean, it's compelling on the surface that argument in relation to this mission Neutral is the perfect spot for me on this because I generally don't know Where I stand on it. I see decent arguments on both sides I like that it can impact list building in terms of Of Having more battle line be required although sequel But again, I haven't like looked in depth at that to see whether that is a meaningful net positive Are we actually doing anything really meaningful with that that argument with a notion? Vince is saying we're not you might be right Um, I I definitely not too keen on the notion that you can burn all of the objectives But again, have it really set down and thought about that in the context of battle line Maybe it's needed in relation to the battle line requirement as the only ones that can score Where that's actually playing a meaningful role being able to burn all at once potentially with some list To better compete on this one. Yeah, there's there's a lot going on with it. Not really sure how I feel played it at flying monkey Made a couple of mistakes and you know might have I would have had that game actually if I'd made a couple better Decisions, but yeah, I can I can definitely see some of the downsides of this mission Yeah Yeah, and then my bad list is just apex predators and tooth and nail apex predators should never be in any pack right now It rewards all the things that are already the most powerful things in the meta It's like mega's marathi and archion and go track and all this stuff that you know, you don't want like Uh, a doc a marathi and the bow snakes list featuring go track is just like dreaming of a pack that has apex predators in it Yeah, right because they just get to auto win that game. It's like I'll hold all three points I don't even care No for the folks at home too. Could we uh, since it's only the two Uh, yeah, sure. So apex predators is the one where like leaders basically are the ones that can take it, right? so and leaders and only leaders so hence your Uh, you know your monster heroes that were already quite powerful in the addition become the only potential scoring units as well Basically, right? Yeah So it's just feeling Yeah, it just it's bad. It's a bad It's a bad scenario because if you're not playing with if you don't have one of the already potent god characters The god characters just get to really bully you So it's just it's just a more or less an instant win for them unless they're facing their equal, right? It exacerbates like You know it exacerbates everything.  Well, yeah, so this one is it's basically the old, uh, total commitment where you couldn't you know You can't you can't deploy anything in reserve So it gets rid of all that and then in addition your summoned units can't shoot Or charge in the round they show up. They all have summoning sickness Now we could talk about whether or not a rule kind of like that might be a good idea for the game overall Like there might be ways to integrate that kind of a concept Of summoning sickness into the game overall in a healthy way But just having it randomly occur in a scenario is so egregiously punishing those two rules To like half the armies there and by the way, it's not like just the powerful armies. They get punished by this Right, like again, it's just completely it's this giant Godzilla just stomping around like yeah, sure. It's punishing to I suppose Like heavy summoning armies. I guess like sure slanesh like because that's a real powerhouse right now Hey, they had two foreign ones. Hold on now. Thank you for reminding him That's two but still sure, uh, that's fine um But the you know, like but it's also hitting like particular beasts of chaos lists that want to ambush or uh What else? Um My random the fourth best city in that book living cities night. Yeah, night hot legion of night Sylvanas Sylvanas night, you know, I mean The it's just like it's just insanity to me that we still are publishing this scenario and that anybody uses it I do not understand They made it worse. They were like, oh, you didn't like the restriction that ruined allegiance abilities before I want to ruin more of them I just don't think it's up to 11 It was uh, it was a shocking choice to me. So yeah, tooth and nail is just it's That's a big it's a big thumbs down for me there boss Big agreement big agreement huge. Let's go back to apex predators. Let's try to make a case for apex predators I refuse I mean that involves all of the bad models and it's still be a problem Fix all the ones that are really egregious go trek No archaea. It's still be a problem I think one of the issues with it is that the way that it's written as I understand it I have to look at it again, but I think this is right is that Let's take archaeon archaeon can take a point Dominate it. Yeah, and then you could have a chaos lord sitting behind him who could then Stay on that point correct still control it while archaeon goes off and murder something somewhere else Whereas previously in place of arcane power his butt had to stay in the same place. Yes. So he continues sporing I think that's that's one of the fundamental issues with it right now. Yep. Sure. Sure. Absolutely There's that and then the save stacking like like when you look at the scenario itself has fundamental problems as you've described But the game itself has underlying fundamental issues. They're also making us worse Which is save stacking right monster heroes are the easiest thing to save stack in the game Yes, right And you were doing it anyway.  Here's a simple example in that game five With that I played My opponent had Six varen guard with demon weapons. Like this is a very very scary unit. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah Uh, and He picked slay the warlord because he knew he could get into range. I mean they had grasping plate and those things are ridiculous So they just shoot 22 inches around the board and whatever whatever but And or or farther because he also had the cast lord to make them sometimes double pylon if he could keep it in range So then they they're going like 28 inches across the board or whatever nonsense That's you play you're talking about the six inch activation six inch activation. Yeah, then do it twice and then yeah Then they can do that cover the whole board. It's super the whole board super fun um, I had I had to I had to I had to measure 22 inch bubbles around his unit with all my army like that Yeah, did you hear did you hear that travis super fun? That's our local guy who runs that nonsense. All right Um, but at any rate like He brought his verand guard now because the nature of the base is here. You can only fight he into my into my nomad prince Which was my general. Okay. Mm-hmm. Now. This is a foot wanderer hero Fighting with like five wounds Right. Now. He had the he had his eighth of course or not his eighth of course. Sorry his um Amulet of destiny, of course. Okay. Oh good. Good. Good. Yep. And It's a five wound guy Right. Okay. Did he have an entourage with him too? Nope His his his entourage has had to have been they they were killed a little while back by the by the rampaging verand guard So he had no bodyguard unit anymore It was the only battle line unit. I completely lost but I lost one Man, that's so sad. They should like and subscribe through this video in this channel right now See here the story He picks slay the warlord Oh slaying the warlord. Okay. Okay. You set the scene beautifully. What happened? He piles into my nomad prince with four verand guard because that's the most he can get around them and maintain coherency Right. Oh, no Yeah, and I'm like, I don't think you've got the stuff to take out my nomad prince and he's like This is this is six verand guard. These are these are incredibly frightening. You know something. Okay. Let's see what happens Yeah, he did three wounds Failed to get out of here. Did you best day ever? Yeah, I had like I'd plus two to save right. That's a nomad prince and the verand guard couldn't lift me right And so like that's my point if I can get that that he was like a hundred points and he was very easy to keep alive Okay, yeah so like the The like that's my point look how far down I went All right And he's and the hero still couldn't be lifted All right, and I went way down like that is Way down there as far as power level goes. No one's like the nomad prince. There's the game breaker You know Not not one not a lariel either. They she let none of those wonders back in so yes, exactly So my point is this just that's that's why it's bad get rid of the save stacking up the points on the worst ones Fix the way the scenario works like there's so much you have to unwind Yeah Yeah, thank you brice. Yeah suns definitely do screw with apex predators as well. That's that's high on the list Yeah, I don't even want to think about that. So anyways, that's mission. All right, let's keep moving beautiful All right grand strategies and battle tactics. Well, we're not going to take as much time as we did on that one But that one was pretty busy Yeah, there's a lot of those guys there. All right So grand strategies and battle tactics what I've got down is that on grand strats Our initial take stands some of these will never be chosen. Some of these are near autocompletes You just select the one that most easily matches your army and you should in most cases get three points Uh, they they become kind of a nothing burger almost Unless you happen to be in one weird army where you just have none that you feel like you can reasonably do I don't know that there are many of armies like that out there, but it occurs now Uh, tyler, you mentioned the rotational option. So you want to talk about this because this is how your tournament this weekend went Yeah, so just an almond one of my favorite toos awesome guy I've been running in the seed role now gateway open for a number of years Jeff And played a lot of practice games with 3.0 the local community in st. Louis You know talk with us down in springfield and our journal experience had been like a lot of us that For the most part we're getting the grand strategies every single game Yeah I've had maybe I could count on one hand the number of games that I've had that were impacted by whether somebody got grand strategy or not And so he made the decision to Only allow you to play one grand strategy once across your five games So how many we how many we got like eight or nine of them? Yeah, they're a total. Yeah So pick pick five out of the eight It I told vence before the show it felt very much like mash con schemes In that you know, you get your kind of you pick your You're kind of have a thought maybe five in mind out of your eight that you could go after and then you're trying to sequencing Them well like round one. I played Stormcast and he had three, you know five six one heroes. I'm like, all right. This might be my best shot At keeling all of the heroes, which is pretty pretty tough battle tech or tough grand strat It is. Yeah. Yeah. I I loved it. I heard really good feedback Over the weekend from that approach. I mean it, you know, there's maybe a little have have knots Maybe suns might be a healthy challenge for them Having that change But generally yeah, I heard a lot of good feedback from that approach Yeah, yeah, I think the rotational option is really interesting I'd love to see some more tournaments explore that where where you have to switch grand strats every game And you can't duplicate over the course of the tournament I think that's really interesting where it could make it more of a bigger differential Um assistant ref said, I know I sound like a broken record But grand strategies add nothing to the game and actively heard it by promoting skew and tabling These are just broken. There's no reason for them to exist. Yeah I mean like right now they're just in most armies. They just end up being 15 free points You don't have to work that hard for or 15. I'm sorry three free points. Just please excuse me You don't have to work that hard for it, right? Yeah You know, like I went five out of five on my grand strat, you know, like A lot of people did I was able to deny My opponent round five's grand strat because I killed because he had the priest one and I killed all his priests I just shot him all down So like that was a chance where I actually was able to deny it by just reaching out and killing all his shrines And and stuff like that, right? um so There's I think the rotational option sounds the most interesting to me I hope somebody explores that because it does make it feel like It It would really vary things, but I think tyler if we went to the rotational option we'd probably need Maybe a different type of list like you know, I'm saying like I'm not sure it worked for every army as they currently exist I wanted to pull it up here while we're talking about it. Yeah.   Yeah And Wasn't there uh, wasn't there have more units at the end of the game than your opponent? Oh, yeah, is that is that the basic or is that the uh, dominating presence? I want to say it's uh, jhb one Okay, I might have named. Yeah. No, you're you're right. Rocket. Hey I use it with my dp in and I'm like, that's what I'm here for every once in a while No, you guys can do the seven out of eight. I'll be over here like hey, I can contribute. Oh, you got it So, you know, I feel like we might need a slightly different rotation Yeah, but but I like the idea conceptually it feels like the way these should have been used Yes, right So even if this isn't the right list I think that's the right mechanic Does that make sense? I don't know man. I yeah, I would like to think we may not be too far away from a sufficiently right list Yeah, my point is I just haven't thought deeply about it and how that would yeah That's fair. That's fair and you know and for tournaments. I I like the idea You know a more robust list. I don't you know, like you say and we haven't really thought deep about this So I don't know what that would be like off the top of my head But it it would be healthy enough And then it'd be the the secondaries from the last ghb kind of where it's like, okay. Yeah score five Yeah Throughout a tournament, you know, there's extra points It gives you an opportunity to get points for denying them for your opponent to try to break up more type You know come up with more tie breakers Instead of maybe just a strength of schedule Um, like I've had games where What my last tournament before covet They had to go to like the third or fourth decimal point because of all the different tie breakers we had to go through Um, so, you know more stuff that could just straight up say hey, yeah He did this she did that That's the difference. I'm okay with it. Yeah Yep Yeah Yeah, you know, I saved hold the line and price sorcery Which one of my two easiest for rounds four and five because I thought those sure And yeah, try to try to get which again nascon scheme style You try to get your heart as severely And yeah, it was a completely different experience really really enjoyed it. Yeah makes sense I think that's great. So to those who happen to watch this take note Maybe maybe give that a shot and see how it works Uh, all right. Let's talk about battle tactics Here's my notes on battle tactics sequencing is everything Uh, understanding the nuance matters what I mean by the nuance is like objective location Uh, so like where are the objectives actually at vis-a-vis what you need to be doing? Uh monster bonuses keeping those in mind territory restrictions that kind of stuff So like objective location, I'll give you a simple example When you're doing aggressive expansion if the if the Uh, if the point is on the border of the two territories You can use aggressive expansion even if you claimed them from the top one So you can just grab those right away.  Yep, right. Yeah And so it's like that kind of thing when I say monster bonuses I mean keep in mind all the different things that can have a monster bonus And if you have a list that can take advantage of them trying to do it because oftentimes that one extra point can really matter Oh, yeah And then territory restrictions Yeah, so this is for things like savage spearhead where you have to go wholly within your opponent's territory You know, there's a there's a lot of small deployment areas First blood very small Uh, uh, territory Um, the the ones that are 22 inch dead zones with only 11 inches of territory horizontally oftentimes that can all be Easily zoned out from dropping So it's like unless you got something that's really fast That's going to just go run over there where you're going to pick it late in the game Where you might have a couple real mobile units that got their way over there once you've sort of cleaned some of their stuff out You know, it's easy to mess it up not be able to move wholly into their territory, right? You can't have a you can't have a dude tell it out You got to be wholly within and that's that's a smallish amount of space so Just like I think that battle tactics Uh are the one area that I know I want to work a lot more on Yeah personally Because I know I didn't get the sequencing right in all my games like I'm sure of it. Yeah Yeah, it's just it's such an it's such an area That you can mess up Right Um, yeah, the um Gumber says always remember that monsters takeover doesn't get the monster bonus I've had several opponents think it could take to get the extra point. It's absolutely correct It does not because they just be and and and I get it. I had somebody actually do that to me During the tournament and I was like I had to look and I went I was like, okay And I went and read it I had to go look and I was like because I had my cheat sheet with me like always I have my cheat sheet has the all the battle tactics completely printed out directly from the book and I said That's not you don't get the bonus for that, but I know why they thought that they weren't trying to cheat They were scanning the list for looking and looking for the monster word in bold Of course because that's generally where you know, you get the bonus and that one has the monster word in bold But that's because that's what you need to do it Yes, right. Right. Yep. Yep.  It was interesting again because I didn't play with any monsters Okay, I had no monsters to my list. I did have casters. I never turned anyone into a monster never felt the Yeah, like it would have never been beneficial to do so Yeah, yeah, it's great in theory But I just I just worry, you know that If I don't get the turn and then my dude's still a monster all of a sudden I'm giving up monster points and then that right that I went for that little extra bit and I got too greedy Yeah, it's funny too because I had games Again, just I keep referencing it because it's started top of mind. I had no monsters in round five. My opponent had no monsters Right. So suddenly neither of us could do bring it down and neither of us could do monsters take over Yep, right that list starts shrinking.  Yeah, exactly. How are we killing a catacross?  I definitely don't think that's the case My experience this weekend in all my practice with this list a list a big list where I had zero monsters whatsoever It never felt like it hurt me and I knew I'd never had extra victory points on the line that I was handing to them Yep. Yeah, right. Do you think Vince that was skewed Meaningfully by the fact that you have a pretty strong power projection, you know range damage list 100 more a more pure melee Yeah, 100% 100% like that that was that that that helps to counter that right like that my army was was all power projection High mobility high power projection, right? Like I could just apply pressure wherever I wanted in any turn So like certainly that helps me keep the pace You know, I don't know. I'm not sure if I would feel the same if I was playing like all-foot corn or something You know non-archeon all-foot corn. I don't know You know, that's not a list I play so I can't I can't speak to it But I'll say it's never hurt me to not have mine Like in all the practice games and all the games in the tournament. It never hurt me not having monsters not once nice So rocko any thoughts on battle tactics, you know, obviously Maybe your experience in terms of you know denying of course, it's going to be huge Like that's the same. I think an area that I'm going to try to get that right as well But yeah, no, it's it's definitely it's a game of denying. It's knowing like if I'm bringing just one monster I'm doing that one where I'm just contesting with my monster. I'm just trying to because once You start running out of easy to score Yeah, uh Battle tactics, you know like vince said if the other person and you you both didn't bring monsters Two of them are off the table immediately and then I'm like, all right, I'm just I'm just scrambling like How do I late game kill their general?  It's just he stands alone I can check the lake I have to say that because of the rerolling ones group So he just stands alone, right? And you just you have this awesome image of this narrative of the duel going at them against six of archiod's chosen and in in in practice You know, he how do you? How do you do that then when you don't have the monsters and you have to start planning these ways? And like, okay, cool. He's got to go for the warlord now. I'm just gonna best day ever Yeah, exactly like pay attention to the sequencing like for example I never call my heroic action until they call theirs Because right like they finish all their start of turn stuff and then I do all my start of turn stuff Which means I'm gonna let them pick their battle tactic and the second they pick slay the warlord And pick there whatever their heroic action is. I'm like great best day ever on my general like let's Like your general should not be in best day ever until they pick slay the warlord Right. No, like it's it's just that kind of little sequencing stuff That can make it which is legal and fine too. It's not even me.  I'll just heal my hero. Okay, go Cool or whatever.  Yeah Uh That is unless they have a non hero monster in which case then bring it down So they becomes a whole different ball game Hello cow the caribatives. How are you doing friend? I'll tell a very quick but funny story from About battle. This is about battle tactics for my game four against the maws of jorke. Okay, so It was the we were playing Uh first blood that was round four. So we're very very far apart and I give He's he has the priority. He gives me the first turn So we were both the same number drops and he won the he won the roll off. Sure So there's like Many many inches between us because maws of jorke with the he had the little boss bonus They're rolling like they're really they're 3d6 plus 3 movement plus a re-roll, right?  Yes And so I moved To take my two points one being well outside of his range to cover me even on his best day ever, right? Like I was I've stayed 33 inches away to hold the one point in the bottom left I moved a single gyrocopter to hold the bottom the top right at like a max distance knowing you could get to me But I don't care. It's one gyrocopter. Yeah, and then I moved the steam tank up and turn and turned it sideways in between Terrain so it blocked everything up and I knew he could fly over the top of me But at the distance I set it at he would have had to have like literally the greatest role in history Because I kind of set it right there to where there was no way he was going to be able to charge over the top of the base Sure And I just prepped to go into best day ever went right like he'll be ready to absorb all the impact And I know the steam tank commander can take it because he's Hard the only thing that brought that dude down was go track Because yeah, that kills everything. Anyway, yes, so he moves up stuff happens blah blah blah whatever doesn't matter Goes back to my turn So I so a priority order maintains into turn two. So I have the top two I say, okay Slay the warlord now. This is a worst. This is a bad choice theoretically But his his loon boss on mangler is like he jumped up to he was he was hoping to get the double He didn't get the double. So he's kind of in range of all of my guns Sure Okay, I had killed his other loon boss on mangler the one that wasn't the general in round one Yeah, just by putting all the 30 inch range shots I had into it Are the uh four up base save or five A four up base save 12 wounds. So he was four up five up, right and a five up ward, right? Well, yeah, he had the ambiot of destiny. So yeah, okay Okay, good So I'm like slay the warlord because I knew I needed to kill that guy anyways, right? Like he was my he was he was the number one thing I wanted to kill that round So I was like, I'm gonna put all my guns into him anyways.  I'm gonna start with mortal wounds because he's only got a five up against that So I I've got a couple damaging spells roll the first damaging spell Miscast to do three wounds to myself Okay Roll the second spell roll a three fail the spell. I'm like, okay. So neither damaging spell works I'm like no problem. Do on my movement. I'm like, let's go into shooting I'm going to start with a storm of shemtech another great chance of mortal wounds, right? Three rolls on a two up. Yeah, I love the mortal wounds each I roll three ones Okay Doing well Yeah, I'm like, okay. All right. So no mortal wounds. So I shoot the the steam tank commander's like right there next to him I had so like I wasn't in combat, but I was close enough I was like, I'm I'm gonna shoot this team commander into the sky The machine gun's gonna go into the the little unit of squig harpers next to him And so the battle cannon roll a one sniper rifle on top roll a one at that point. So this is like out of Nine dice I've rolled against guy this guy or 11 dice 10 of them have been ones Okay, and so I said, all right. I literally said this out loud. I was like, all right, that's it. I give up I don't get my battle tactic this round. I give up Right the universe does not want me to kill this guy No, I hear you universe Like I'm not going to throw any more good money after bad You get to keep him this round. Congratulations. I'm not shooting at him anymore So I turned all the rest of the guns into his units and blew away all his units And uh and and like then that but that dude was still alive, but I was like, that's fine. That's just what this is He gets to live for now And that dude didn't he was like one of the last units to die the universe did not want me to kill that loon boss on mangler Nice, nice, but anyways, I thought that was very funny So like my point is it's important to get your battle tactics and to think about it But also don't let them disrupt your whole battle strategy. That's why I told that story, right? What I could have done was just like kept pouring shots into him Oh, yeah When clearly I had already wasted so much firepower and I was like I gotta stop I'm gonna lose the game because if I don't bring this guy down then I've literally accomplished nothing Whereas if I just go into the basic units I'll just start picking things up Right So I just turned and killed the other hero in like 25 squigs Yeah, right. Yeah, and then that still wins you the game later down the road. Yep So anyways, uh like go for your tactics, but no when to hold them and no when to fold them You know what I mean? Like sure. Yes That's that's the answer So anyways, yeah There you go All right, yeah Next thing Mm-hmm next thing. All right. That was a fun story. I hope everybody enjoyed that that little squig I think I think my favorite part was when you said you rolled nine dice and you got 10 ones I'm not sure the math. I rolled like 11 dice because it was two spell casts. Yeah Two spell casts. That's four three Seven no, it was nine. So it was eight out of nine ones. There you go. That's okay. Okay And one of those was a two because you said it was a three That you rolled one was a two. Yes out of the eight ones and one two. There you go. You hate this Yeah All right, let's talk about meta health versus problem units Okay so We're seeing a wide swath of armies being competitive and landing in the top 10, right? Phenetium even one of the bad phenetium Gets went four in one. Okay. You've got fec up there in a couple different times Obviously, you've got things like giants zinch doc all the usual suspects. We would we would expect to see slanesh We've seen two slanesh four and ones. Yes. That may be three now, right? Might be three actually. Yeah, I think it might be three actually crazy like the uh The point is that we're seeing actually a pretty wide swath of stuff showing up up top Definitely more armies than we're happening in 2.0. Right. Oh, yeah All day Yep, uh, and even things we saw as previously poor performers Have been showing up in the top 10 Or the 5.0 bracket for one bracket again. However, you kind of want to construe it, right? Hey, if I don't see 120 skinks on a list again My god, there was a tournament in 2.0 where I played pre-nerf petrofex elite and then double things a so-tech And it was the hardest 3.0 ever got I got third place of adamum through grand the tournament was actually a tts tournament But my god and then I saw that in real life too and I'm like, okay. Yeah, we're just doing this now. So I'm When they were like, yeah reinforced units are like, okay. Yep. I'm on board. I'm on board So My point is is that at this like we're seeing this big swath of stuff Yes, now at the same time, we also all know that there are problem units out there I gave a simple list here archion go track and marathi. They're the big three that we always mentioned But you could pick other things you could pick your nine storm friends Right, you you could pick like like there are other units we could point to and say are problematic, right? Yes. Okay So my question is How are both of these things true at the same time? Is it a factor of new addition new rules lots of people starting from zero and so kind of the wild west and anything can happen Or is it just actually the way the game plays now? is Allows for a broader set of victory conditions by armies And those kinds of problem units can't win games on their own as easily What's the answer? Right. What do you think rocker? so when it comes to the The problem units and just everybody seemingly gets a shot at the champ here Um, I think as we lean more into endless spells the the go tracks and the marathis and the archions who all of a sudden Can't charge because of a shackles And it stays up. Sure. They get an extra Ways there seems to be other ways to unbind. There's different ways that endless spells work to like double heal things. There's There's so much. There's so much to work through with all this But I think When it comes down to it, there's just so much randomness in the meta and so many things are good That uh, you're gonna run into list. You'll never never you wouldn't plan for a sylvaneth army You know like like with my deepkin. I'm like, yeah, I've got three sharks in the turtle They're all gonna be running harpoon so I can try to chip three wounds off of a marathi And you know get a go track. I'm not game planning for sylvaneth I'm not game planning for uh The the revenant with the the eggs and the bugs coming out with the hedge. I'm not thinking about them I'm worried about Illuminath and how am I going to deal with uh 50 sentinels and again It shoot them from distance and have enough plus ones to hit to counteract the minus one But then while I'm looking at that What would be like the top of the meta and then all of a sudden Here's this thing coming at me and trucking me and dropping me to a lower table And it's also taking out some of these dock players. They're you know, they're cannibalizing each other You know, uh, you know the archaeon they get to fight when it dies all of a sudden two of them are in each other's swords And you're just like, huh What do we do here because if everybody's bringing You know these kinds of big meta units and they're cannibalizing each other then this other person comes out of left field One of the 10 lists that's unique and no one thought about it You know, you're getting a great shot and that's that's where I think this health is coming from as well And also there seems to be Like I know we're all talking about shooting meta shooting meta shooting metas, but I think there's enough tools now We're starting to slowly see is people have been expanding their armies and getting some of these newer rules Like sylvaneth with the trees going everywhere with nor ignoring liner site more ways to teleport more ways to buff A derp through so he's not a derp through to get two extra attacks on his sword and to play this movement game Save stacking Behind terrain roll where you might get a plus one save and if you're not wholly within cover But yeah, that's rain. Yeah, there's there's a lot more ways to mitigate Unless and well, yep, and then it's just like, oh, what do I do about? The spells that are like making sentinels to be a mortal ones on a five up Oh, maybe that's what you burn your once per game model. I'm buying a lot of armies seem to have these days Whether it's storm cast if it stays pending new book Uh ko with a navigator can get it I'm just gonna probably keep saying order stuff. But uh, it's like technus has it now You get so many pluses to unbind from like a negash Or an arc on that seem to be again viable Even in obr, you know, they found a new home.   Um Because I I I think I agree with a lot of what you just said there rocko like To be fair I said a lot you did The the reality is I think maybe the fundamental nature of some of these scenarios like we talked about Contributes to this because they do tend to prevent runaway scores Yes, right And so because of the nature of the current scoring, it's actually allowing a lot more people to compete in different ways Hmm Because you tend to score like let's just call it the average is five in the good scenarios Yeah, right And score two score more battle tactic and you don't even have to be on half the board usually to do it Right So you like you still need to engage if you want to if you want to push to the wind You can't just sit there and do nothing and play with yourself But you do have more ability to still be scoring while controlling less the board or killing less of your opponent's stuff Right. Yeah, eventually it's going to come to that, but you don't need to alpha strike them down In fact, often that's a pretty terrible idea. I think Yeah, right Um, it depends. There's there's certain things work and certainly work in your favor um So yeah, I mean to me that's I think that's probably the fundamental answer, right That plus there is more balance because of the defense against stuff like shooting That is a bright side of the of the save nature, right? It's harder to necessarily push through stuff like that Yeah Yeah, maybe maybe a quick leave in so I wanted to ask you what what was your Like updated current impressions on range damage. Let's say broadly defined A shooting in magic after your experience at mash con, you know, I mean, I ran an unusual army, right? Sure Because like I don't know that I saw any like a ko list is jealous of my shooting That's true. Okay. Like I brought the Battlestar Galactica to that fight, you know, like really dead Once when all my guns like everything in the army shot basically right Yeah, so every unit could put shots in the air and and oftentimes on egregious bonuses All right, like in my in the good games where I was able to sort of control and have the board control I wanted a lot of my army was on Tuesday rolling ones twos Yeah, that's a lot of shots to put in the air and So like it's still powerful Like surprise surprise shooting still good Yeah, you know what I mean And I I built the list this insane list to really exploit that stuff right and to be able to choose units in order and Remove problems and it's it was it's all this big Johnny conundrum Like I was sort of out of my wheelhouse But it was it was interesting to be able to play it through between the mobility and then pushing power where I wanted it Right. I'll pick a little off this guy. I'll try to I'll shoot this hero. I'll weaken this unit I'll kill this unit right and just sort of like spice that around was usually how I ended up using it But it's still like having that very mobile very diffused power base where I could either like group up and just Unleash You know like broadside somebody or just go And spread the whole army out all over the board and just start like shooting everywhere and everything Proved to be you know valuable to have that. I don't think there's many armies that can do that kind of thing Yeah, right So, but yeah, I mean it's still powerful, but you know at the same time You know fighting the Marathi go track list It was a tough fight all the way through and by the way, they had like 15 bow snakes, too There's not like they were without shooting for goodness sake right in double tapping bow snakes that do more to wounds Right.  Like let's not kid ourselves here, right? No, not at all um I mean, I knew she was going to be I had properly You know I had properly chaffed to to make sure that that was going to To not be a problem, but like I had to pick what was going to die to Marathi, you know Yep. Yeah. Oh By the by the way, Benz, uh, Rocco. So I my list had a little Combo, I mean, it's not nothing that inventive, but it happened game one and I was so excited to get storm cast.  Hold on throw a little Marathi up the board getting cogs further up the board good Tag more people need to put little Marathi in danger that together they can only take three wounds throw her up there Fight dang it. But yeah, go on puritan piled around got into some tinny vacators So I got six or seven. Oh, it's beautiful the calm glow that I wanted all weekend right there Collis and doc folks and mirror dance. It's a beautiful thing. Sure. All right, brandt ever. No, that's fine So yeah, I mean quick question. It's a quick question Did you kelp my for retreat and charge from big Marathi too or I was I was boring. I know just smooth that brain out, baby. Just smooth it out. Yeah It's okay. Fine. Fine. Oh that Marathi dockless. I played by the way was calipron too. So they were all it was Because the anti shooting list he had brought an anti shooting list. Uh, so at any rate, um The uh You know the the nature of this I think this is exactly correct and here's what really excites me about this If these problem units which we could probably identify pretty easily Yeah Like we could go through the game and pick out sort of the the proudest nails pink horrors Sure, that would be how do they actually work? Yeah, that would be one Um I think that If those get adjusted we by the way, we don't have to like crush them. I don't want to see them unplayable I want to be a hundred percent clear on this right like archion should be a thousand points I'm just going to set that that that down I'm going to plant that flag a thousand that is a thousand points Right. Yeah. Yeah You know go trek should go up some Marathi should go up some But like if we fix these units uh I think the meta becomes a real wide open place Right and cruel boy is saying you can't shoot me outside of 12 inches. Okay bringing in the night fighting rules You know like I really do think at that point the the meta becomes super wide open Because you can't fix one of these things right now. They're kind of holding each other in check Like go track kind of holds archion in check. You know what I mean? Yes. Yeah Um, but like if those if they both get waxed together Um, I just think this meta opens up even wider and we get really literally the best meta we've ever had Yeah, I just want to take a note to thank everybody this weekend who said our Marathi is fine and that Vincent Venturelli Needs to settle down. I had three different people this weekend made made a comment on that Thanks. Thanks everybody Making the great point that you know, you can just kind of chip damage her down Get off the board and by round two seems I don't know if she seems pretty fair to me But what do I know from Marathi? Yeah, because it that's the thing when you're playing the god monster Obviously, you just can't roll the aftersave. You can't roll like if I played go track the first My first eight damage I'd roll three ones Even heck with vince's nine ones. He rolled it's possible that that sequence of events can happen Like there was a guy with a new croak I think he took like two or three wounds and then rolled like the 18 on the three dice and croak was dead from Oh, yeah, I think one of jack's one of jack's games. Yeah Yeah, you know it happens It really does. I appreciate all of you people saying she's fine at 660. You're wrong. That's great Um, it's cute when it's the other person's marathi. That's when it's crazy It's a super cute defense from all of you stands who play doc Okay She's not That being said, she is the least of the three the three problems here Yeah, okay. Yeah I don't maybe if marathi could take four wounds instead of three to turn. I don't know She just needs to go up a little bit of points. She should be at least 700. It's pretty easy Didn't go track code down points too. He went down almost 100, right? 100, right? Yeah, that's that's the bigger problem here for me of just what Is what they thought everybody was