Welcome. It's nice to see you all. Hello. I'm Andrew Taylor. I'm in the faculty of the arts management program here at American University and we're going to have a conversation about artistic leadership, particularly the search and support for new artistic leadership and American nonprofit theater. And as we begin all things I want to make sure we acknowledge I'm going to do this myself because it's right here. That we are located on the territories of the Piscataway Powhatan and Nanticoke peoples. And as organizers of this event we recognize our ability to gather here is due to the continued occupation of this land. We also recognize many enslaved and indentured people were forced to dedicate their labor to the construction of what is now Washington DC to these people and their descendants we acknowledge their indelible mark on the space in which we will gather for this event. And lastly, in recognition that this land is colonized indigenous territory that has been crafted through slave and indentured labor. It's our collective responsibility here and always to critically interrogate the histories and after lives of these events and to honor, protect and sustain this land. And I hope the conversation today is in part, living some of the promises we make by saying that out loud because if you don't actually do anything. You might as well not say it so we're going to try our best to live the values we're putting here. So for those joining us on online welcome and how around on zoom wherever you happen to be for those in the room welcome I'm really excited to have these extraordinary professionals in the room with us. And I think I'm just going to start with having you each. Just say a little bit about what your job is. Like if you had to explain artistic director of a theater to somebody who didn't know what an artistic director of a theater did I would love for each of you to give that lens and then you as well let's start with Hanna Sharif who's joining us from arena stage. Hey. Hi everybody feeling tonight. Warm the room up a little bit. So I'm artistic director at arena stage and I think the question is what is an artist. So, I depend so I will say that there are different models of artistic directors, I have a somewhat traditional artistic practice. I'm both a playwright, a director and a producer right so I call myself a generative interpretive and curatorial artists. And as artistic director I'm the lead artist at the institution. I curate all of the seasons so I choose all of the plays that one sees I hire all of the teams. And what I would say is that artistic director and I'm also very hands on in the running of the company. Once again, there are different models and across generations, some artistic directors were less involved in the, the actual running of the theater or the model that supports art, but for me I don't know how to do this work without understanding the kind of a fiscal reality of the organization and how all of the threads of what we do come together. And artistic directors also are often lead fundraisers for the institution. It's been a lot of time raising money for the art and for the artists. I am responsible for actualizing the mission and creating the blueprint for the vision of the organization. It is an incredibly important job, all of the threads of the organization I would say that in a theater, you do one of two things you're either in the business of making theater or selling theater. And what kind of theater, how you do that work, how you serve your community is through the vision of the artistic director so it is an incredibly important job. And in the American theater, uniquely compared to the museum world or the symphony world or the opera world. Most of our nonprofit regional theaters have a two person executive leadership team of equals. And that is different, you go into the symphony world there's usually an executive director this kind of final say, but in the traditional nonprofit theater you often see an artistic director and a managing director, and the managing director has fiscal responsibility to support the vision of your artistic director. And you work very closely, hand in hand. And when it's a great marriage, it means that wonderful things happen for your institution. And when it is not it means you have to work really hard to make it a great marriage. And it's beautiful so that's, you can see how hard it is to find and secure extraordinary leadership that does all that and maybe I'm going to pivot to rich before I go to you because we want to see if God's Reginald Douglas is here for mosaic theater is also artistic director. I would say, you know, I think, just a yes and everything kind of says about the marriage about the partnership about being the one who both has the vision and helps implement it or leads it. We're mosaic where uniquely and purposely where I say we're intentionally leaning into our biggest of the small and smallest of the big unique opportunity here in Washington DC where there's a robust theater and cultural scene. Mosaic we're thinking deeply particularly as we head into our 10th anniversary next year, the third under my leadership about how do we actualize our resources to the best of our ability to serve artists and audience as well as our staff. I sometimes find that the three of those constituents can fall out of whack of it. And we've worked really intentionally to build the right team structure to then support the artists help us then grow the audience to be reflective of what we are and what we need more so we could be very cool and Al Hartley was here from Atlanta does many things management consulting included but I wanted to his role at least today is focusing on the search consultant's proportion of his job. So maybe can you tell us a little bit about what a search consultant does in support of executive or artistic leadership. Absolutely, you know, I feel like you often maybe tell me what a search consultant does when I can, but only because really I tripped into this work. So my name is Al Hartley I'm a partner and a co founder at a firm called evolution management consultants. We're really center equity diversity inclusion access within our work authenticity within our work to do both search and management and planning for theater and nonprofit organizations. But specifically with search, especially how both Hannah and Reginald have described the artistic director role. So much of my journey is working to find folks within the field who want to occupy these positions of artistic director executive director. So, usually whenever someone like a Hannah leaves or like Reginald leaves their post of an executive leadership position, often boards will hire or will form a search committee that is tasked with finding the next artistic leader, or the next executive leader. And in order to do that and facilitate that process some search committees choose to do it completely on their own, in terms of actually putting out a job description, finding candidates and interviewing them, ultimately making a recommendation to the board for who to hire. Rather than some organizations doing that themselves, they choose to hire a search consultant to say, you know, you're really the party and so and so to speak the expert in terms of this role in finding who are the players or who are the people that are interested in this kind of job, identifying the skill sets and the needs within the organization around leadership and what is needed out of a leader, and then being able to design what I less call a search but adjourn. I think that each in my own artistic way, each leadership search is a kind of journey for a question that an organization is asking itself in this moment. So my job is to design that term. What are the questions that are obvious to think about. And then frankly, what are the questions that are not being asked and thought about, and how do you put that at the forefront. Beautiful. So okay, so we have someone who tends to represent the sort of board or the search committee and then we have two people, one very recently in their new position one been there for a little bit. So our exploration today is thinking about well how does this process either facilitate or, or not facilitate the availability of these leadership roles for a diverse set of voices and perspectives. Because if you look over the history of professional nonprofit theater, you don't see a lot of diversity at the top level. And we're just starting to see that now so I love the idea of a journey. I'm going to frame it in a little bit more maybe awkward way because I'm not as elegant is sort of as essentially the four steps of a problem solving like let's say your artistic director is leaving or has left you as a governing board are responsible for the health and vitality organization. You have a problem. Right. And maybe it's opportunity so it's not always a problem you guys are not solving a problem but let's frame it that way just so we can use sort of the problem solving steps. So I'm going to show each of them and I'm trying to pace ourselves to see if we can make it through but essentially first you have to define the problem you have and formulate what exactly it is you're facing. So we'll think of that in the search is about well what is the job description look like what is the kind of the ways we're thinking about what is our next leader leader need to know or do or have capacity to do, who are we and how can our leader reflect and amplify that. The second is you have to generate alternatives right so we've now we've shaped a job search idea. We have to find candidates in the world. How do we look how do we draw a circle that includes people that might not have otherwise shown up in traditional or conventional lists. The third is the decision making right so now we've got it down to a short list we need to actually talk to these people, make a decision about which of the candidates that are our finalists are the ones that fit and how are they going to know us and finally we have to implement and adapt. So, let's make the choice we've hired somebody they agreed to join us. They're now in the organization. Now we have to see what happened. And each of those to me that translates also into the onboarding and support of a new artistic leader, and the way that either are able to manifest the change that everybody talked about during the process or they are not able to manifest the change because the organization wasn't actually ready to change. And that's the way I want to talk about this if that makes sense. And again you're not it's not problem and solution but I find it's a frame so let's think about first, and again from the search consultant and from your own experience in the search process the problem formulation How good are nonprofit professional theater boards at describing what they need in artistic leadership is that something that's good. I just have my spirits on I. I think problem is not a useful noun here I think opportunity is far more useful. Because I wouldn't be attracted to and I don't think many candidates would be attracted to high come fix us, or hi there's a problem will you be the savior, and you can suss that out pretty quickly. I think in a conversation, typically when you get deeper into the search process. And so I've been drawn to searches and ultimately drawn to the position at mosaic, where there is a spirit of opportunity in the room. Well, yes, there may be some real problems or the opportunity arises because of past problems. But I think, especially on the artistic leadership position that it's important that that board, or that candidate or that staff and that search to me but that the people the constituents that play are looking for more than answers to the problems that have existed, and are actually excited about what could become from a new leader. And I think that spirit of a search is very. That's great. I just want to offer that from personal experience and as people. I accept the revision now we're talking about opportunity description and formulation and, and there may also be problems in the mix that need to be engaged but let's leave this opportunity and new potential. I know this is not the starting point, but I think it's really important. So, so part of it is to understand that we are fields in evolution, right. And the last five years in particular, I would say five to 10 years has been for our field warp speed evolution. So, 20 years ago. There were basically two search firms that did 95% of the searches in the American theater. So there were only two first so if you if a job came open, 20 to 30 years ago. A theater board will call the two search firms, and we get an RP and figure out which of the two they were going to go with the other thing about the search experience. 20 years ago, three decades ago, certainly it was this way. 20 years ago, I can speak personally to it is that the search firms were also somewhat hidden. So you didn't know until you were the right pedigree, and they came for you. You didn't know who they were. Right. So it's a little bit like this. These, these mysterious firms. Right. So if you were not at a theater that had done a search and you had not been invited into a search you didn't know who they were. And that was really interesting because in order for that to stay secret that meant that everyone in the American theater had to be complicit. Right. So people who had been invited into the process and have been candidates were also keeping quiet about who the firms were because that's what you were taught was supposed to happen right. So what would happen is the search firms who were who were meant to be the professional keepers of talent would be the gatekeepers for access to executive leadership jobs, which meant if you were not on their radar, you were never going to be invited into a process because for the most part, they, there also wasn't a public opportunity for you to submit yourself for a job. Right. And so, when enough people knew you and you made it to the shortlist, you would get this magical call from one of the two firms inviting you into the secret process of interviewing to become an executive leader. I wish this was not. Perfect. Right. And I will give you this example, I was at a TCG conference and I was in a multi generational BIPOC leaders room. And some of the younger folks were saying I really want to submit myself for these jobs and I don't know where to go. And some of the older leaders were hush. And I was with an organization that was going through a leadership charge. So I knew who the two firms were. And so I said in the room, who the two firms were, and they hush fell over the room. I had worked in the art pool, revealing to the masses, who actually does the searches and saying I'm going to get email addresses so you can send your resumes and so they will know that you exist. And the other thing that was happening and I use this as an example when I was at Hartford stage Michael Wilson was the artistic director. He transitioned out and they we hired one of the two firms to do the search. I was the associate artistic director of the theater. I've been at the theater at that point for eight years. And I was not invited into the search. And when I had a conversation with the leader of the search about why halfway through the process, there had only been one woman who had been brought before the search committee that I was on, and no people of color. The search consultant looked at me and said, that's because there are no qualified people of color. And this is the you've got the most qualified woman we could buy. I was like, I'm an associate. Half the people you brought in the room are in the position that I'm in half of the people in your public shops are social artistic directors. I am here invisible. Right. So this is 20 years ago. Now there was a breaking open that happened in the last 10 years and how maybe, you know, in terms of like just getting us up to speed. Yeah, there are there are many more firms. And there has been a what I would say is a medium level of access. I think most people in the past would say it's radical access because now most jobs will post who's running their search publicly. You can send your materials in to be considered by a search firm for most searches. And there is a, a mandate for most institutions to have a much more diverse pool of candidates. And so that has shifted the way we approach this question that you asked us. But I do think the context of understanding in the last 20 years, that it was a very secret, very curated process by which only the people who, and most of, not those. The search firms had all male search consultants. Right. So there were no women running searches. There are women working in the company they were not running searches. There were no people of color in either of those companies. And so it's not a surprise that we had this kind of monolithic leadership, because they were the gatekeepers to determine who was qualified to be seen for those jobs that has shifted in a profound way but I just wanted us to have that context for this conversation. And I think the important piece with and I love this framing around opportunity, and also the context of searches. I've been doing search work now for the past five years. And when Hannah talks about the mysteriousness of not knowing either who the firms were. Talk about having to start a firm and then figure out what is this process. You know, what is even the process of doing this because it sounds simple, right.   That's it. That's not it. When you ask about do people know what to expect. I think my job as a search consultant is to reveal that opportunity, and also reveal the organization. I think that over the past five years. There's been an expectation of some level of more transparency. There's been an expectation of more diverse candidates within your pool so that it doesn't have a monolith. There's literally a blog or email list about the game of thrones of the American theater, because what got me interested was saying, Oh, this person. And this person has moved here and this person's here and now this search is open, and this person's going here from the artistic director position or the executive director position. So I felt like coming in it was a job to say, How can I play for the organization, what the opportunity is what their institutional history means in the context of this search, what the kind of art that they are making for their community and the history of that are making. And what does that mean for the kind of leader that you're trying to find. And I think that kind of framing for organizations to say, I have a lot of institutional and historical knowledge about the regional theater field, but now coming into an organization and saying, Tell me about yourself on your own terms. Usually when I'm going in to listen to organization I'm listening for two things, consistency and inconsistency alignment and not a lot. Where does the board have alignment about the kind of person that they're looking for, because I'll tell you and I'm sure that honey and red have gone through this in some ways, you ask people what they want.  I want someone who knows how to market to their community. I want someone who knows about EIA. I want someone who knows how to coach a staff.  That's what you have to put in front of people and let people know is to say, These are people. These are artists. You know, yes, who they are is really key and some of the things that you want to bring in are really key. But I'm not here searching for unicorns.   Give me a Tony award winner. Give me someone who's won a Pulitzer Prize.  What is that in terms of the organizational direction and the strategy of your organization. That's the question. I think what you've just said is really important because if you're talking about the opportunity. The truth is, most boards don't know what they're looking for. So when a leader says, I'm retiring, or I have another job and I have an opportunity, the impulse of most boards, if they have not selected for the leader to leave, which is most of time not the way to have. Usually it's a leader retiring or ascending to another position. Right. The board is like, What are we going to do. We need someone just like the person we had. Right. And part of what I think is so important about the search and I've been through, I've been through three artistic director transitions as a staff person. Right. So one of the things I think is so important is that we, your institutions evolve. It's where you were 20 years ago when you hired your artistic directors, not where you are now. And so the idea that you just replicate the person before without taking stock of how the field has evolved, how your community has evolved, how the art has evolved. Boards don't necessarily know how to frame those things from the beginning, and they really depend on the search firm to help codify. It's like an institutional assessment that happens first. The first opportunity is assessment institution, assess the community, and that assessment becomes the building blocks for the job description. Yes. Yes. And most boards don't know how to get there without the steady hand of a search firm, which is part of why they're so valuable. I think really quickly that one of the ways that we try to center that discussion to is figuring out who are the people that have traditionally been centered traditionally, you know, usually predominantly white staff and predominantly white boards. And instead for us saying how do we create an affinity space for BIPOC folks within this institution, both board staff, artists and community wise, and actually center that in the conversation about where is the institution now. So that for me as a search consultant, when I go out there and think about these alternatives or who are the folks, I had that affinity space in the back of my head constantly. And usually, at least what I found, you will find the truth of an organization in that BIPOC affinity space. You will know, and you will hear from people whether the years and organizations have kept their commitments to EDI. You will hear, you know, some of the racism and sexism and homophobia that people have experienced within an institution. It's not to say that there are all problems there, but you get to more of some kernels of truth around what may be some of the issues and challenges that we're asking our BIPOC leaders to enter into or any leader to enter into. You know, and how do I even translate that as a search consultant to candidates. And what does it mean for someone like Reg to say, I want to enter this search, given the opportunities and maybe the challenges, or also saying, I actually don't want to enter this search based on the opportunity. I want to go towards a different. Yeah, and I wonder, Reg, if you have a reflection on your experience in conversation with Mosaic, whether you found an organization that had some clarity around what their opportunity looked and felt like. Whether that was the beginning of a sketch or sort of, how did you feel sort of in conversation with the organization about what was, what was there. Yes. We are recording. I really feel having so many colleagues have been part of the seismic shift, so to speak, over the past 10 years. And a very unique position, you know, I replaced an artistic director himself selected out, which is not often the case. And so I didn't and we're also celebrating season nine right now, we're preparing for season 10. It's not an organization that was younger and therefore more nimble around some of the questions around history and legacy identity was wonderfully ready to be reshaped. And I've met an organization that, you know, also wasn't doing a pivot towards EDI that the core of mosaic mission and DNA has always been cross cultural thinking. I think the. So there's so many factors that from the beginning made the organization and the opportunity different than others I have been, such as I had gone through opportunities I have been presented. I never take that for granted. I met an organization that was really excited about new ideas, new ways of working. If anything, I felt more pressure to be different. That's opposed to pressure to be the same as the predecessors I've had, or that the organization may have had. So what, if you could design the process right so a board and you design the process but you guys can design now to where a board is starting to explore the idea of a new artistic director and artistic leadership. What is it they actually need to know or engage with or understand in order to formulate the actual beginning of a conversation with potential artistic partners. What do you know as the board to make this a positive and corrective step. I mean, I feel like half of it is, it's that establishing what is happening in the field currently talking about what are some of the ways in which artistic directors are speaking, you know, or the kind of work that is being done out there. Hannah, great director, Reg, great director, you know, who's out here in our field. Try to give a basis of what is the might that mean. If you're looking at candidates like Hannah and reg in terms of the institutional strategy or mission moving forward, the kind of work that they're going to bring to the institution. And half of it I was saying a little jokingly earlier but it's really serious, it's, it's actually getting board members to talk about art. It's getting people to talk about the theater that has impacted them, you know, and why it belongs at this institution. And it's also very much understanding, especially for artistic director roles. There are, yes, artistic. I would say competencies or artistic skill sets that are needed within our artistic director, you need to curate need to produce you need to have relationships with artists in some sort of way.  And so there's a lot of basis and well, what are the artistic imperatives or skill sets that you're looking for, and then what's also needed organization only as well. Fundraise, yes, you know that the art is the center and said to say main product of what we're trying to do within a theater organization. So that fundraising ability or that ability to be able to shape and define the art that you're making and being able to discuss and speak to it. It's really key for a board to understand before meeting candidates. You also have to understand the job, or what it needs to be an artistic director. And I was trying to read really described it well and safely. And I what we try to provide our search committees and boards is to say, read some of these different articles, you know, read some of this research about how the role of artistic director is changing, or has changed, the model of it is changing there are now co artistic directorship models, versus a single artistic director model. You know, so there are questions even for boards and search committees about what's the structure of the organization. Why is this the structure that you need with a co managing partner, or an executive partner. And I think the last the other thing that I would say with a with framing for board and for staff. It's almost like what our current president says like judge me, judge me according to the alternative, not the almighty. You know, you're not looking for the savior, you know, you're not looking for the person that comes from on high, and it's perfect and gives you every single lovely wonderful answer. You know, and my job I feel as a consultant as a guy is to give the things that they may be see on paper here out of a candidate, and then also to give some of that organizational perspective that listening perspective that I try to provide, and say, this is the other side, hopefully for the candidate's sake to say, here's actually why I have brought this candidate forward, and what I'm trying to get you all to have a conversation about or offering about, you know, but I'm curious for you all in particular. For those who have looked out at searches or looked at job descriptions, you know, or looked at different organizations. What have you often seen as the flame of what you call this as an artistic director. I think the thing I'd offer the board that have been most attracted to and previous searches search at mosaic is honesty about who the organization. I think the, yes, and to looking at what's going on on how around American theater articles, but also what does that actually mean for this company. And I think that is something that gets shuffled away or gets overlooked and then comes up from the candidates questions, you can kind of chisel away to what is the real truth of who we are right now. Operationally artistically fundraising, basically where are the savings where the reserves what is the current staff structure who is the current audience, who are we and as honest and as thorough of an assessment as you can have. I think it's so vital for a board to lead their staff, and I think staff are vital to be a part of that reflective work, because there's a real disconnect between the day to day operations of the organization. And that then leads to what the artist director may or may not be responsible for, ultimately responsible for, not spiritually responsible for, but you will get your raise if you do x, y and z things well. The job will be met your performance reviews based on these things managing these positions, that kind of clarity of structure, how you report and relate to the board that kind of clarity, which only comes from staff participation in the search process. I think at the core of the search at the beginning of the search process allows for a much more robust conversation during the interview process that's my big offering for that would encourage a board to include staff in a really thorough honest assessment about where we are and because it's an opportunity to overcome the challenges that we may face. Where do you imagine this organization in five to 10 years through this new artistic directors leadership, or with this new artist structures leadership. Those are the two questions I'm always, I've been asking in previous certainly it's not asking right now. Those are the core questions that I've always been, and that came from experience doing searches. What are the clarity of questions I need in order to know if this is a viable opportunity for me or for this board and staff. And therefore this community. You know, I think, going back to your initial question, I think that a board's work has to begin with a a an assessment and recommitment to mission. So you have the mission that your organization began with but I actually think that it's really important. At least once a decade for the board to take a very clear look at the mission and the reality of what the organization is doing how it's achieving its mission. If the mission is still aspirational, if the mission is still central that's the direction the organization is going, you know, one of the questions I asked often and this is a really good question. And if you guys use it make sure you credit me. I asked boards when I'm interviewing are you looking for evolution or revolution. What are your goals in this next moment for the institution. Sometimes they're looking for someone to radically shift the institution into a different trajectory. Right. They looked at the mission they say actually, we want to go here we need to change agent. Right. And then other times they say you know, we know where we're headed we are we have a good foundation. It's an evolutionary journey that we're on. We need to say we need to stay close to who we've been as we evolve. That's important for me as a leader to understand because that is going to frame how I do my work. If I walk into an organization if I choose an organization, because one of the things that I think is really important and this has been a my it shifted for me in my mind a decade ago, and I will never go back. I'm going to an interview. I've interviewed you as much as you're interviewing me. Right. I'm at a place in my life I turned down 90% of the jobs that come my way. Right.  And I want to know what I'm walking into, and I want to know what your goals are. So if it's a revolutionary moment if you are looking for me to catapult this organization and I choose to take that on. Then I'm going to frame up the way I do my work in a very specific way. If it's evolutionary, then I actually have to have a fundamental understanding of who the organization is. What people see as connected to the DNA of the organization, I have to love that I have to breathe that I have to have that lead me as the backbone for my work and then I build around it and I'm talking about right to evolve us. I want to know in the interview process whether or not the board is on the same page, because of half of the people saying they want revolution and heavily people saying they have they want evolution what I know is that there is no way to succeed. Because 50% of the people will feel that you have failed them because you are not in alignment, because the board is not in alignment. And so I think those are really important things for a board to take a look at when they're going into a search, and for anyone who's in the process, understand your own power and agency. Right. You are the person who will be left standing holding the bad for the decisions that other people make when you take on that job. So know what the job is. That's what they say it is, to your point, but what it really is and some of that is getting savvy about the questions you need to ask to understand what's underneath the first version.  You know, they clean up nice, the organization in a pretty dress and it's just gorgeous and it's like, I'm in love. I want to know what happens when the hair comes off and what underneath that.  And my board actually, you know. So just knowing how to ask those questions. I think it's really important to figure out who you are and why you're doing the work. And letting that leave you and the way that you approach the questions you asked an organization. So it strikes me so a couple of threads I'm hearing a grounded understanding of where the organization is, and that itself feels like a mountain to climb. Right, because I had a friend who went to a theater to interview and they said, well, we can't decide. We don't know if we're two and a half million dollar theater or one and a half million dollar theater.  And it's sort of the same thing as like we care about equity and inclusion is like, you know, I don't see that. So at first challenge, it feels like it's for a governing board to have a grounded understanding of where they really are, which from my experience with boards is a hard thing to do in the board and often. So far. And then the other thing I think it's going to come back in the support conversation is, we know that people will there's great theory that says people have two theories of action in their head at the same time one is the espouse theory the theory they out loud that drives their action. And then there's the theory and use that actually if you looked at their behavior. I understand that you say that out loud but you have this other one going and theory and use tends to be about I don't want to be embarrassed I don't you know I don't want to look dumb. It tends to be more impulse. And the challenge comes up when organizations you know genuinely believe they have a espouse theory that is true like we want revolution. We start the revolution. Hold on a sec. Right. So a grounded understanding also and a real emotional intelligence of the board to say, you know, we think revolution but we, we don't know what that feels like and we were ready for it to feel really odd and uncomfortable. Or we're not ready so I'm hearing a couple of threads in here around how you can get ready for the work so I'm curious then about what would sort of be the next. So let's say an organization has pretty good understanding of where they are. And I think, I think a follow on question for me is, I would imagine what you want is really deep clarity but also openness to what it might become if you're entering as an artistic leader so super clear about who we are and what we've been and what we tend to want and what we favor and what artistic practice looks like, but also a willingness to be in conversation. And I wonder whether I don't know if you have an opinion this whether governing boards have an easier idea thinking of executive leadership than artistic leadership or whether they tend to come with the same. The leadership is exactly. I mean, I mean, sorry, sorry, managing director. And as opposed to artistic, whether there is, whether you've noticed an aptitude among boards or search committees for the managerial side of the work, or whether that's just making that up. They're both, they're both different opportunities. You know, I think that I think where I frame that is, there are different opportunities about where the organization is going about the values and the issues and challenges moving forward. I would, I really say for the executive side, often there are more clearly defined metrics, so to speak for executive directors or managing directors. So the idea of how much money have you raised? Have you worked at an organization where you've had to be responsible for earned revenue and what's that look like? How many staff members reported to you? You know, when have you had to make strategic choices for an institution? I think for an artistic director, what's interesting actually is that they are more emotional searches. They're those things that they can't name. You know, there are things that they say, and then there are things that are like, ah, but I can't name what I'm feeling. And what's your try, what I'm trying to get at usually in both searches, actually, for an executive director or an artistic director, or two questions usually I'm trying to get from a board. What is your fear?  So often I'm really just trying, and especially when when folks like Reg and Hannah show up. Then you really in the conversation of the minute interviewing here. Oh, what is your fear about this candidate and what they would bring to the institution and what they would mean for that institution. Why is that a concern? Why are you expressing it in this way? Can I claim it to you as an opportunity? Can I frame it to you as a strength instead? You know, can I turn your perspective on? The other thing I'm asking myself often in both searches is, am I wrong for some reason? Did I get something wrong? And when you present a slate of candidates, it's a really great way to test those values to test that idea of is what you're saying matching what you're doing.  The other thing that you have to do that's important for artistic director searches in particular is being on the same page about what is required, what can be learned, and what, and what can be developed out of a candidate. And that is often confusing. You know, they may want to hear out of Reg, for instance, well, we want he didn't say anything about raising $2 million for a fundraising initiative. And I'm like, Okay, why is that important to you? You know, and they say, Well, it's important that they fundraising and our last artistic director fundraise that much. Okay, so is the number important is the fundraising important is the fact that Reg and Hanuk can build relationships important. What is important here about the kind of alternatives that we're presenting. Well, it's really a moment for me, where there's a level of clarity in seeing a number of different alternatives to that organizational direction, and saying, How am I wrong. Am I wrong about the assumptions that I went in around an institution that's primarily done Shakespearean work. That actually is very attracted to someone or very interested in someone who is doing newer work. What does that mean for the institution. What might that mean for the art that's created. So that's some of the things in terms of how you frame those alternatives. I'm constantly asking myself as a as a search consultant. What am I hearing from this group. What questions are they asking, who are they reacting to. Am I wrong about some assumption that it's been court in this search that a candidate is showing me, and perhaps I have to pull push the search committee or the organization in a different direction. And I think you have to have an, we talk about openness and clarity, you have to have clarity about what the organization wants, but even I as a search consultant have to have a kind of jurisprudence to say, I actually might be wrong on this point. So I'm going to explore that further in order to get the best and most optional decisions for the company. Yeah, so I'm curious about sort of the generation of alternatives right so how I'm curious about the skills abilities background context that you think would help sort of define the kind of leaders that could step into an artistic director position so I know it would show up in the job, sort of the spec but I'm curious what skills and abilities or our gifts. Yeah, no it's a loaded question and I mean I, I, I, we're still ish at the thought because I, I've been through probably six artistic director to mosaic or including mosaic. And you have I've answered far more questions about my administrative leadership than my artistic leadership and I do not think that's a flu. I do think a big part of that is ageism. I think there is a clear idea of how old leadership is, in addition to what race it looks like and what kind of pants or shoes it may wear. I think all of those things are big factors but I will never discount the fact that I was 29 and the runner up was really confusing to many boards on paper and in person. You have checked all our boxes.  Yes, because we've been trained, we have been trained to yes, understand upstage downstage, and all of the facets that go into making vibrant successful high quality artistic theater experiences, and how to fundraise for them, manage them, contract them, save the day, you know, all of the business skills actually are vital to the current definition of artistic director as I've experienced it and I think many boards still imagine it to show up which is that the idea of, which I've always thought was a fallacy but the artist who just reads plays all day is a complete fallacy and you even said right away you're the chief funder is you are the face of the organization you were actually there for the lead marketing asset of the organization. And so many of the conversations I'm having are actually search consultants pushing the board to talk more about art. Because so much of it's about business and what we perceive leadership to me so I just say I wish on some days there were more conversations just about the quality of the art we all experience and why it moves us. But I find this search should become unemotional quite quickly and to become about nuts and bolts and ability to get to metrics and definable successes and discounting some some things that are really key. But have you ever ran a rehearsal room for a large musical. Guess what that's coaching and staff management. You know, you may not see it that way.  It's interesting because this again reflects an evolution in the field right so 30 years ago. Artistic directors, it was not uncommon for someone who had been a freelance director would not been in an institution to become an artistic director. Many, many, many of my colleagues who are great friends directors who have been up in these searches and keep getting knocked out. Because many of our institutions have grown, you know, you start a theater and you started like little love bubble to make art and that love bubble to make art certainly become it starts to grow up. And then all of a sudden you've got buildings, and you have 100 staff members, and you have very real responsibilities to keep the lights on suddenly that love bubble becomes a business. And you get to a point where I think depending in it all again it depends on what kind of it's too size scale because I'm running one of the largest institutions in the country right now so it's a different game than where I was in St. Louis which was a 10 to 12 million theater, right. But this idea is that once the theater starts to have so many responsibilities words get a little bit scared of having a leader who doesn't have the institutional experience, right, because we're too big for you to learn on the job. They forget the birth of the regional theater movement and framework and likely the artistic director you're replacing, right, as likely been in that position. Well, this is the other is that if you look at to the UK artistic directors tend to sit in those seats for about 10 years every 10 years. Right.  Molly Smith the incomparable Molly Smith who is a brilliant legacy leader of arena stage was there for 25 years. The previous artistic director ship that I had was also replacing a legacy leader and not a founder but a legacy leader like Molly he sat in that seat for 33 years. And she had artistic directors who spend decades and decades and decades in those seats so you're not seeing evolution in those leadership positions turning over very often. What that has meant for before, I would say for my generation, but many of us set as number twos in those seats for 10 and 15 years, rather than being able to ascend into the executive leadership seat because the executive position has not helped those positions for so long. But what that meant is that we were able to build out an incredible portfolio of institutional knowledge and experience. Which makes it very hard for some of my colleagues who are brilliant artists and actually great leaders but don't have the institutional experience to be able to compete. The other thing that is a shift that you see in terms of artistic directorships is that you are now seeing. It's pretty rare in the past that you would have an artistic director who did not have a traditional artistic practice, who was not a director, who was not a playwright. Now you have the, the birth of the artistic producer or the creative producer. This is someone who is deeply invested they may come from a dramaturgical background they're producers, but they don't have a classic practice they're not the lead institution, because they don't direct, they don't write, but they are the lead curator. Those skill sets are firmly about leadership, institutional experience, and relationships with artists. And so, you know, I think we'll see what happens because this is really the last 10 years that we've seen this we'll see how this works, and whether, you know, and I've lots of friends we have we have been trying to work. Artistic directors who are creative producers but don't have the kind of traditional practice and so I think it'll be interesting to see what that means for our fields, when half of the artistic directors are not the lead artists, and half of the art and how that actually shapeshifts the regional theater. It's an exciting time of possibility I would say, but this idea that, you know, you just have to be able to pick plays was never true. And is less true in 2023 than it has ever been. Like, where are the time and want to see if there's questions in the room I certainly have another one. But it's anybody have a question burning in their soul at the moment or even just simmering a little bit. Yes. I'm curious about transitions, which is not been such a long time for even one of you. You come in with at least a year of somebody else's vision and agenda. How do you step up as a visionary how do you hear it that and then make it your own. Great, the question was around just if people aren't hearing it online that around to the transition of leadership often you will the pro the season you're in is usually programmed by the leader behind you.  Just make sure that that's what I've been doing my whole career right so my job is to make sure that my vision is delivered with excellence to this community. And, and to start to build relationships within my own institution get to know my staff to know my board to know DC, and really start to build my first season to meet the community, rather than coming into a community that I don't know and having to like, you know, do a magic trick, I'd rather have the time so I'm really grateful for the year of producing my predecessors last season. To the question of transition, though, I will say that having witnessed transitions and then learn so much from my last transition as an artistic director. I was really clear with the search committee. Before I was hired that we needed to have a transition committee we needed to have a transition plan, and that I would be actively involved in setting that transition plan to make sure that and also I asked for a change specialist to come in and help support the board and the staff in understanding what this kind of generational change might be. Most of our institutions to change management as a science. Right. And the American theater has not practiced it. And so I felt that it was really important to level set expectations because my experience going into my last artistic directorship is that some people thought I would change the place, but no one thought that I would that my presence and that my leadership would necessarily mean that we would change the way that we worked that some of those practices would shift. There was an expectation that I would fit into a sequel size box. And there was not an understanding that I was coming in a fully realized human being. Not only because they had been living in one way for 30 years they didn't know everyone who worked that had only worked under that leadership model. And so I thought it was really important, going into an institution like arena which is, you know, one of our landmark theaters in the country excellence is at its core. And so many people have worked there for 20 plus years and so I wanted to make sure that we were all working the same level of understanding that there was going to be change there's going to be evolution that there will be moments where it got hard, but that we would come out of it with a shared vision for how we would move forward, and to encourage people to embrace the, the uncertainty. And then we started to build together. And the board was really receptive to that. And so we started that process and I think it's really really important for me, working at this level to make sure that I had the pillars of support. to be able to do my best work. And I learned through living with those things were, I could not have walked into my first job and have known the things I know now about what I need in order to be the best artistic director I can be for an institution. Yeah, I would say, you know, the evolution revolution I think mosaic was, I think I could say I know was interested in revolutionary evolution, meaning if there was a real desire to keep evolving meaning kind of stay where mosaic has been in terms of mission was no of the mission. And in fact, my tenure start was timed with completing the strategic plan. So one of the great gifts which I really perked up about in the interview process was the board did not want to complete the final, you know, nuts and bolts of strategic plan or overall vision and language around it until an artistic director was in place, which is a unique special opportunity to really level set where the next five to 10 years can go, that there was excitement to do that with me was a big reason why I was ready to hit the ground running. But it also was a real clarity that we do not want to become arena stage in 10 years. We want to remain mosaic and I was quick to name that does include a budget size. Because it did it took some pressure off that we're not trying to go from 3 million to eight to 10 to 20, then the actual how we achieve the mission as a team under my vision and leadership which can at times feel revolutionary, but still be contained in the box of evolution. It actually meant the job, we didn't need to do radically new things. You know, or that wasn't the mandate that was an opportunity there was room to do radically new things. And then the timing also you know I was producing or leading over really observing the staff in action producing a season the staff picked not a predecessor. And there is a difference there there's a difference in terms of ownership of that season feelings that are attached to the choices that have been made. And interestingly, anything I don't take for granted, a real question of should that have been the choice we made it really allowed a unique power dynamic of, and I've gone through a search as a staff member who who had planned the season. And then your artistic director came in and had to produce that season while I was still on staff. And that was moments of tension for sure. I had to explain choices that are seem quite minute and obvious, and the way to do it in our sleepness to someone who's purposely trying to understand why you do that in your sleep and not this. And so I was also very sensitive to that for the mosaic staff I was meeting, I was perhaps too sensitive, in some cases to their feelings about their choices, but I knew so holistically what they were feeling. Yeah. And the ultimate thing was scare. Because we forget that these are actually jobs. They're scared, while going through a pandemic of will I even have a job. We all were scared of that. Yeah, during the pandemic and you're doubly scared when the new person comes in who has been charged by the board to help us think differently. You may not be part of what thinking differently feels like. And so you're both protective and scared of the twist you made that's a really unique opportunity to be in. And I purposely chose observing for two reasons one, it was, I was still working my previous job. There was too much overlap with the previous job and the new job, in terms of administrative artistic leadership life, but also my directing life. It was one of the things that I always value the search consultant really being obvious that, again, I don't think some boards understand you're often hired two years out and so I do have commitments teaching directing artists relationships that I'm not willing to change and they're not willing to say an opportunity to chew this up. So all of those, you know, unique things made for a six months of sponging while actively announcing and fundraising and programming the next season. And so, you know, we don't really talk about November through February of 2022, because it was one I was part time. Which was not true. And it's just, it was, it was a really hard personal three to four months. We're building a plane while falling and flying a plane while also helping this other organization who you care about, and people there you really care about the other staff members you're leaving. We'll kick that plane as an order as you can while also going to be the lead genitive artists and three other rehearsal rooms. That's a really tricky moment. And so I was able to be honest about that to the staff and to the board and say I'm going to observe and put my attention towards the future. And it was 95% the right choice there's 5% that we've now, you know, feel better about but then it was really fun. So really quick, that I think the one thing with transition now that I've told a lot of boards and staff is that this is a longitudinal transition. This is a generational transition for field like Honda said at the beginning. And so it's knowing, listen, this isn't a one year thing. This isn't a two year thing. This this is really a five year moment for field. And I think for boards and staff to understand that to say this is going to be a recovery. This is going to be a transition of its own. Think of it as you got one season and that's it.  So it's telling boards, listen, this is going to be a longer journey. And this is why I frame it as a journey. It's a longer journey than just a singular year. People think the search stops when the person signed the offer and you're like, y'all are both good. Okay, you're great. You know, you've done it. It's saying no, nah, real work begins, and it takes even longer and it's a harder often climb but it's a more joyous climb. And that's what you have to that's what I feel I have to submit myself to is the joyous client that is this moment in our field. It's this generational change and it's about supporting leaders like Hannah and reg and others and saying, you all are going to lead our field in the next generation. How can I help. And that's the question. That seems a beautiful place to stop. So let's thank our guests. Thank you everybody online. I hope you enjoyed our multimedia media thing. All right. Thank you all and have a lovely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all.