Welcome. This is documentation office hours. It's the 7th of April, 2023. This is in Asia time. So thanks for being here. Topics that I've got on the agenda. And if you've got additional topics, call them out. I've got, I've got Google Summer of Code. Pull requests of interest. This is one where I want then improve CI process, more FYI, reducing number of pull requests. So really the top two on my list are these two right here. Mokul, are there any topics that you wanted to bring? And chat is okay as a way to express them. For the political spot, I was thinking, like, why not add the direction of, like, the direction that the people with these are under inactivity. I'm having real difficulty understanding what you're saying. I apologize but the audio quality from your microphone seems to be pretty poor. Could you say it again or type it in chat? Okay. Great. Okay, so, so you posted a link to stale as an action. Is your question then related to considering the concept of marking pull requests marking pull requests as stale. Yes, okay, so, so let's put that as a topic automatically closing, closing stale pull requests, and we can discuss it. Good. All right. Any other topics that we need to put on the agenda for today? I'm good. Great. So FY for information sake, Google Summer of Code review and ranking period started. It started actually for April 2023. Mark has 16 proposals to review. So, I got a bunch, and I've got now about seven more days to do it. So hang in there. The next topic was automatically closing stale pull requests. So, I think this may be prompted by the question reducing the number of open pull requests. And our experience has you has almost universally been that automatically closing stale pull requests is a terribly negative experience for the pull request submitter. They, they can't make the maintainers review it any sooner. Faster right we just can't there's nothing a submitter can do closing a stale pull request, if as a maintainer I was always really great about reviewing everything might might work. But the problem is rarely the main really rarely the submitters problem it's usually that the maintainers overloaded and just can't do it. And so for me.  But if it's closing an abandoned pull request, where the, the submitter is no longer responding that I think is reasonable. But it requires maintainer engagement to confirm that the submitter is no longer responding unresponsive. I've got some rather specific examples here, make submitted. What it was. It's ready for five or five to 10 pull requests.  It's one huge one. Yeah. So, a year and a half ago or so. Yeah, exactly 12 to 18 months ago. And they are still they are still valid. Still useful and still relevant. But they need review from subject matter experts. And, and the reality is, until we get the review from subject matter experts, we don't want to close those and declaring them stale actually be a really bad thing because they're their only idol because they've not been not had time from a maintainer from, from a subject matter expert it's not really even a maintainer it's someone who really knows the material deeply and can say yes this is accurate or no it's not. So McCool does that answer your question. The other situation that I have seen is and I'm not sure what to do I mean it's a case by case I suppose somebody did the PR, and they got some comments. Is there like minor comments or tangential. I remember somebody that we both know very well would be oh maybe we should instead do such and such. And the original the person who originally wrote it doesn't come back, but the pull request itself is good. Somebody else could look at it and you know there's a couple of suggestions that they could approve or something and we could go ahead, it would be worth preserving that work. Right. Other times, you know, the comments are sort of, you know, rather severe would require a lot of work and maybe it's at that point. You know, but again I think it needs to be a case by case review.  Right. Some of them are people who are probably still around that if you pinged them and said, you know this PR is out there and it would just take a little work and we could push it would say oh yeah and go in and do it so. Right. Yep. A lot of people seem to think that when they push the PR their job is done. Well, and, and, and in part it is right. Ultimately, the, at least the thing I've seen with pull request submitted to the get plugin is that people really like it when I accept a pull request to the get plugin, because they accept that that is a full and complete assignment of ownership from them to mark weight. And, and, and it's a it's an elegant thing right if I can get somebody else to take ownership of code I created. I, that's a big win but the, the, the penalty product penalty for me as a maintainer says, I will own that because the submitter will go away, right, they will go away and they'll return to whatever but I'll keep maintaining. And because I keep maintaining, I own it and because I own it, I'm hesitant to merge it or I'm very much more careful. So, right. Now McCool had, McCool had asked a question about, well what if we marked it for six months. What if we set a time limit, right. On the pull request but the and, and there is a technique like this that's being used in the on in Jenkins core, but it's it's got a it has to have a matching matching commitment from the maintainers that I don't think we're ready to give on Jenkins documentation. It requires a matching commitment from maintainers that they will respond they will end the document the contributing guide on Jenkins core says respond or review promptly. And provide actionable feedback. So that meaning if, if I object to a change, describe what must change before to solve it. And, and right now, we don't have enough documentation maintainers to make that kind of commitment. I'm not willing to put a time limit on, in particular if we look at the Jenkins.io pull requests, we can look very specifically there and say, okay, how old is the oldest pull request and the oldest pull request is all the way from September of 2019. And is it still useful. Yes, actually it is still potentially useful. Because migration of the internationalization page is still a very real thing. And internationalization could be a is a hot topic in the Jenkins community. So, so there is still plenty to be done there. So does that address your, your question why we're, why we're hesitant to put up a process that says, after a certain period will close idle pull requests. Great, thank you. Okay. But I did say, down farther down there you have the question of whether we should review those as part of the office hours. I think that might be useful. Right, right. I mean because one thing is we tend to forget about these we tend to forget that they're out there. Right. And I think you did say we did make some progress. A couple months ago we got a bunch of enclosed right. We did. Well, and, and that's a that's a, that's a place where office hours could do it. And I'm going to in fact use today's office hours to review to because I thought, okay, this is a place these two in particular a place where us sitting together may be able to see things that I might not have seen alone. Yeah. And one thing what I would add to that is that maybe we should always leave a breadcrumb always leave a comment that we looked at this at the docs office hours on whatever date. And we decided this or we saw this and, and we could even, I don't know, you know, we could say is waiting for review by at Daniel Beck or, or something like that. King, I mean, the people are busy but people also forget that it's out there. Right. And it depends like I know like mine. Turn to take and of course because they're getting stale so that's going to make them tougher. In fact, something that might not be a bad idea would be for like Kevin because I'm not really on the project full time these days. Kevin to look at those. There may be some work that's obvious that could be done right now I'm sure they've got conflicts with things that have happened since then. He might want to go through, you know, as a writer and clean them up so they're current. But especially like some of them we could look at them and say, you know, this is three paragraphs this should take you 10 minutes to review. And we could get it out of there. I think in my case I think there's one huge one and all the others are kind of dependent on that one. Yeah, that was my sense with yours and there's this this really old one is has dependencies on some rather specific knowledge some specific skills that that need to be handled and and it's, it's not an immediately obvious thing. Oh, this is what I have to do. I'm thinking I haven't, I don't remember what was in that one it's been a long time since I looked at it, but you do have this new tool whose name I keep forgetting to make it easier to localize. Right, the correct crowd in that if, if we're going to update the docs for this that we should probably mention that. That should be included, you know that may need an update to. Right. Exactly. But that would be something else we could look at is this is this something I mean for you know, would this be something appropriate and then we could give an app Kevin to it to. Mm hmm. All right. So, anything else on the stale stale pull request topic. Okay, let's take the next topic then pull requests of interest. These are two relatively recent pull requests that I think as a group we can benefit by discussing them here so first is improvements to the layout of the blog proposed by Jan Farachek. So, Jan is one of the key drivers on the Jenkins UI improvements. He's done all sorts of really elegant things and he's proposed an improvement to the Jenkins.io page. So here's how the blog page looks in his new in his new proposed layout. So now let's compare that remember that page and let's compare that with this one, where it looks like this. So new page. Old page. Now we may say, Oh, what if what if you're running on a small screen. So let's look at it on a narrower screen. That's how it scales nicely. Oh, what about my telephone. Yep, it still scales even on my telephone. You know, comments, questions, insights offered. So Meg, Mikul, others, are there things that you see. Oh, this could be a problem or that could be a problem with this, this proposed new layout. To me, the new layout looks messy. Looks messy. Okay. And it's just there's, there's two. There's all these different blocks that could be freestanding, but they. You know, they're all different colors and different sizes and different styles and which is kind of what it is for blogs, this may be totally. It just, it looks ugly. But I see, but I'm not picked. I'm not a pictorial learner. I'm so I kind of like the words, but I also see that it doesn't grab you that these may be grab you. Interesting. Okay, so, so you find the lack of consistency that's caused by the images to be a distraction. Right. And it, and it may be that I mean they, it isn't that they all have to be the same image. In fact, part of the point would be to have different, but something on style like the, that first one which I find extremely ugly but I don't decide. Okay, hang on which one. Yeah, the dandruff and Jenkins. But, but that's got a little square background. And then the one in the middle has like no background. And then the one on the far right has the blue sort of circular thing.  I don't, other people need to look at this because this is not my area but that's just, you know, a consistent that they either have a round colored background or a square colored background or no background. Interesting. Okay. Alright, so that might, that I don't know if that would help ask the guy who's the expert on these things what he would what he would think of that. I think I think it's an interesting thought of what would, should there be a better, more precise standard on the, the backgrounds for these images for instance so that if they were all using this sort of white background. Would that be better, would that be worse. I suspect that the, I think the colored backgrounds are better I think they frame them. The ones that don't have the color behind them sort of go on forever. Okay so so backgrounds like the one for this image. Right, either yeah, or where it's got the sort of gray or this one with its modeled. Whereas the Jenkins newsletter or. Okay, alright good so ask him what he thinks because he's an expert he does this, you know, all I'm thinking of is I've seen. It's been set of pages where I've, and I've been guilty of this, using all these different types and it looks like it's a test for a type font or something. You just look at it and that's sort of my it's just like a whole bunch of people who never spoke to each other all through stuff up here which is actually kind of the way it goes with blogs but I would also a tangential one. When we're using just a generic Jenkins icon. I'd like to see us use some more of our diverse ones. We've got some diverse ones. The male Jenkins the, you know, I think we've got some for other ethnicities and stuff. Okay, yeah, but that's that's just a thought for me as you know, diversity is an issue and it's a problem. We don't have some really, we can't really control what's coming out of universities etc. It would be a nice way when it's just like a generic Jenkins and that could, and it would be a fun, you know, we've got all these fun we do have the one the, the baby Jenkins I love that. Certainly we've got lots. These, these panels that you're seeing the images you're seeing here actually images that are defined with the blog post for open graph so they're you they're defined by they're defined as part of the blog post itself and thus that's why this one has exactly the look it does because it happens to have an open graph image for that thing. And that's why this one has the look it does because this picture here is its open graph image. Okay. Now, that doesn't mean that we couldn't do something different. I mean, the, I've, I've tended to use this white background thing just because it's easier for me to get it into open graph, but, but I think I could see the point of no give me a consistent background that's something other than other than transparent other than white. And, and I think that's an interesting idea. I mean, even if we could have something other problem is it depends what the graphic like the Atlassian Jerry you wouldn't want to blue background for that one. Right, right. Well, but, but this sort of this light, this gray tone that's here behind this, this, the circle there, right that that is probably safe enough to do in. No, that's interesting. I'm not sure where that image sources from interesting. Well, maybe we have a couple of different choices I mean that it's, that it's going to look weird if like two thirds of them had this gray background and then one has black and one has blue or something like that you know. Well, and, and that's a, that's a topic that we can certainly, as part of future blog posts say hey, let's use the following as a, as a, as standard background color. Now one of the challenges with setting any kind of a standard like that is, see if I can switch it here how do I switch to dark have you ever seen it in dark theme. Let's see so how do I do a dark theme I've got a dark theme in Chrome just a minute. Dark theme for Google Chrome. Okay. Oh no it's a separate add on so I can't do it immediately I've seen it before and one of my worries is that that some of these may not be well suited to the transition to dark and we've certainly got users who like dark theme. And I'm just looking to though some of the white ones. If we went to gray they've got that gray plus and there's another one down below that's got that. So we went to a gray theme we would lose that. Well, but in that case the gray would have to be that gray plus would be a on the next on a blog post that uses that if we've got a gray background the creator the image will certainly not use a gray image in the background. Right, that's easy new new posts and if we say, hey we want, we want to set a standard background color for images, all the better or maybe we say, hey let's make them transparent, so that whatever the user is using is shown through to the image. Okay, good. What does everybody else think of it I take it you liked it before I open my mouth. I do like it yeah. But that doesn't my liking it doesn't mean anything about about yes or no. Okay, because major caveats I'm not pictorially motivated and an awful lot of the graphics that get used in the computer industry have sci-fi overtones or manly man overtones that just set me on edge. Like much of what I see. Okay, so here it is. Thanks, McCool here it is in dark theme. That's a little less jarring isn't it. At least it looks like the graphic for each one is the same size etc. Right well and that's part of the hint right is, because the, the, the background of these of these slides that have a white background a pure white background or possibly transparent that makes it and and interesting. This one went completely dark. It was the gray behind it. I'm fascinated by that maybe that's something about the image really cool. So for me in dark theme I actually think I find it even even better in dark theme okay. This one is a reminder that some of them do not have an open graph image. And so I've gone in as part of this poll request and submitted open graph images, or linked to existing open graph images for many of them. Uh huh. But there will, there are still plenty that don't have an image and therefore they will show like this one does a blank space there. Oh yeah. Yes, graphic for Jenkins agents. Yes. So in. Okay, and here's one that looks especially bad in dark theme. Uh huh. Because and I think the reason there is because this image has a transparent background. Uh huh. And that's that's not especially good for it. And interestingly enough that very light plus sign on the white is actually showing up. I was thinking we would lose that but. Okay, so that was, let's see where did you see that that was on the top row the middle when I think had it first one. There it is. Okay, so it's still visible. Just fine there even in dark theme. It wouldn't necessarily be my first choice but it's visible. Mm hmm. Right. Good. Okay. All right now there is there is one thing that I saw as I was reviewing it that that was not was for me not a positive so I'm going to show you that. Let's see if the top level page. Oh, is that still in dark theme. This is yes. That doesn't do good for their noble butler does it. It does not I hadn't had never tried that. That's that's a that's glaring for sure. Yeah. And if dark theme is going to be something that each user controls themselves right which which I believe is correct it is that is user controlled as far as I understand it. So that might be a problem too. Mm hmm. Okay, so here's the recent post. So this one does not does not have it visible. One of the things that yawn has done in his in this enhancement is he has. Oh, that's awful. Okay, so this dark setting is not a workable setting just let's switch back so it was. Disable the name of that. Okay, relaunching coming back. Okay, here we go. So now back to this one there was. Oh, I wanted to show one of the complexities here and it's in the poll request itself. When we look at this poll request. I made a comment for yon's benefit on this one that what he did is he added the upcoming events into the top level page so the top level page looks like this right it's got top level logo, the jumbotron that scrolls one thing to another automatically, then it's got some features of video, and then recent blog post but what he did was he added the contents of this events page, or of the events in the events page to it. Ah, and and the challenge was the, the layout isn't nearly as pleasant. He just got this you see the in yellow the odd, odd date formatting it's very precise it's just not how human beings typically read dates. Right. And instead of being tiled like he done with the, with the blog post. This is simple single list. Right. So, so the idea on my comment there was hey, I actually personally very much like this layout I find this layout more attractive it's fun it's interesting it. It makes me think oh what am I reading here. And see I'm not a fun interesting person so that's what you always want to filter anything I say. Hearing from different people is a good thing. Right, we want to we want to know the opinions of different people, but it may very well be that maybe he needs to look at the event page why should I mean, we want the event page to be so boring if the blogs are this interesting. My thought was that, hey, if, if, if we're going to do it we could do events as a separate poll request and consider how, how should they be laid out should they be right now there are no events on the top level page and I've submitted a poll request proposing to Hacktoberfest and CD con that in order to get to I have to look ahead. Six plus months CD con is in May and Hacktoberfest is all the way into October. Okay. So, so major events don't happen often right there aren't aren't a bunch of them. Is there no dev ops world dev ops world would be a major event but no dates been announced yet. Okay. And the kinds of things are for me it's like events, maybe at most two or three we, it's rare that we have more than, more than four as events, more typically we've got zero or one. Okay. Oh, there's dev ops world. All right, great. Anything else. Nice work though I'm glad somebody's good is looking at some of this stuff. Oh yeah, yon's yon's work is very impressive. Really, really good. Oh, and also, can I, we are testing it on Firefox and cringe edge and Safari. Yeah, edge, edge and Firefox actually let's bring it up just to be sure that's a that's a good one to do. So here we'll take this one and let's go look at it while we're here here's Firefox. And here is that page in Firefox. Okay, let's scroll down for see how it looks there. Okay, so there it is on the top page. Oh, and that's interesting on this top page. It's now got upcoming events, whereas on the Chrome top page. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see upcoming events. Oops, let's go to the top page just a minute. Okay, I don't see upcoming events on the top page at all here. No. Interesting. Okay, so that's worth flagging. Let me note that to him. We detected during docs office hours. Asia that upcoming events is visible and empty on Firefox. That is not visible on Chrome with the current pull request. Fair enough to make the comment. Yeah, you're going to make us be able to. Great. All right, my mood I see that you've got a hand raised. What question. I've seen the blog blog boss card right now. And the images at the image is white. It's better not get you acts. We have a border to the blog boss guard. So I suggest to put border to them. Like, can you scroll up seeing a white background image. So like here. Yeah. So, so what you're saying is you should have a visible, a clearly visible border in this case. Yeah, please. I saw, I have sent a poll, a comment in the same pool of progress right now. And about the upcoming events, I'm asking if we can, if I can work on it, like, fixing it, but I want more details how the UI will be. Yeah, and, and I am not a viable UI designer. So telling already I'm delighted with this layout and think hey that's really cool but I have no concept of how how best to do that layout so I am not the right person to guide you on on how might it work. You could certainly ask, as you did in the poll request. Hey, are there are the things that you can help in yon's work on this and I think it's a fair question I, I don't know. I'm not sure how he prefers to work on it right now. The code that's in there. I see his changes he's made. And my proposal is hey, I would love to have the blog post without the changes to events, I think it's, it's great. But if he wants to do both the blog post and events I think the events piece needs work. Okay, that so this says this addition you are asking for is just to changing the, the date, how it's look like. No, no, it's, it's actually more than that because I think that I think that to the reader to the person doing the reading, they will find this layout, rather glaring into they'll find it inconsistent when they scroll down below upcoming events. So here, if you can imagine that there were events, the three lines of events, CD con DevOps world and if they were here, for me at least that's visually surprising to see a single wide thing with a very little bit of text, and then multi column as the next thing right below it. I was expecting events to be laid out in. In the case of Jenkins events right now on the website they lay out like this. They, they look like, let's see that won't do I've got to bring up a poll request just a minute we need a poll request that will show them. So here we go. Let's look at a prototype of a poll request here. Let's look at the preview environment. And when I go to community events. Notice that they're already columnar. Yeah, click on expand. And this is this is sort of the thing that I was assuming might occur here but with better, better design than what this is this is. It's not a long time but it's, it certainly is not as pretty as I'm sure a skilled web designer could create. Right. At least the dates are prominent that's why I was going to say if we, if this is like a list of Ford of max six. It should there should be something that at a glance I know what time of year this is it's like, oh my god there's not all these next week. Right, right. And so, so the, the fact that this gives me the visual cue that hey that's May 8. And this is October one that and and the, oh hey it's in Vancouver, British Columbia Canada, or it's a virtual event. Those, those are already pretty good hints and not using a lot of screen real estate. So, for me that was, that was, okay, I like the column their nature of this and it fits with the rough number of major events that we display. Typically, not more than four. Yeah, it's better. Okay, go ahead, speak, go ahead, you can. You have your turn. Okay, so I'm talking about like right now. It's not better to be tails as they will take a lot and the beach. They could be following a great like the poses below like it. It will be three per their line, following the column, it will be better than its tails. So you are suggesting to creating them or we are going to use the same, the same request that you sent. I'm understanding the question I apologize so I don't know how best to do the layout I just know that for me I have a preference towards this column or column or view of major events with one, two or three across the horizontal. Is that what you were asking my mode or could you explain further. Yeah, that's, that's, that's it. Yeah, because for this one, what a glance what to me is the most prominent is like the 12am. Right which to see the hacktoberfest and CD con. Well, and that may actually be a bad choice right because the day of the day and the month are probably more important to people than the than the time of day. So, so it may be that this already is an indicator. Oh that that's probably not the best way to do it we'd like to somehow highlight. May 8 is the big date, or on this one, the fact that it's in fact a two day event. And we're not giving them any hint that it's a two day event. Oh yeah. And actually the time is really misleading because what's the time Eastern US. Actually, those times are not accurate if I'm in Mumbai. Well, certainly and it, I'm pretty sure the webpage doesn't know my time because I when I defined this I said it's a 9am Pacific. Yeah, and, and it's, it should therefore be showing 8am because I'm in mountain time at the moment. Right. So, so this this clock that's being shown there is is showing it in local time and local time is, is probably good because when I fly for a physical event local time is a good choice right because when I fly there I want to know what time it is in local time, but virtual event right it's Well, and virtual event particularly this one is a virtual event that is 31 days long. Yeah, so there's some some, you know, a start time is probably irrelevant here it's rather, it's an all day event and it lasts for 31 days. Right. Yeah. And there now, because I'm boring. I like and because I like that blue and cranberry that's to me very pleasing. I like that they're all the same. But if the blogs are going to have all different ones then why don't we have special graphics for CD con and the best and DevOps world. Yeah, and there the challenge I think for me at least is I don't know, unless we do our own blog post about those things I'm not sure where we would reliably get an specific image for each. Right. Who puts those up I mean are you the one who puts major event. Yeah right or does my mood you had a question. And now I haven't raised in my head. Sorry. Oh, okay, great. All right. Okay. So, so I, I think right now the answer for me is I don't have an answer. We'll keep giving feedback and chatting back and forth with with Jan Farachek, in terms of how this, this improvement is evolving. I think it's, it's worth the further discussions and encouragement for people to take a look at it. Like this one. Was this the one that we had it seen in dark mode. Is there a way to tell Firefox dark mode. Let me see. Because I thought dark mode for Firefox. Okay, so customized dark from the themes. Okay, so. I clearly don't know how to drive Firefox nearly well enough. So we'll just, it needs more exploring to see hey how does it how to look in dark mode, etc. By the way, I noticed I think when it went by, when you had the PR up where he had like a shot in this PR, the ones that are all white transparent or whatever. I think there was a very faint border on them. And that would help I think. And there definitely is so let's make a note of that. And, and hey, let's put it here is. Yeah, let's make the border a little more dominant might solve it. Right so. Okay. Suggested and may have agreed that a little more clearly visible border. Around the images. The open graph images. Make it easier to see the two. Well, let's see make it easier to see the order and organization of the blog posts on the page. Visible border. Not sure how it would look. Look in dark mode, right because I didn't run it in dark mode to see. Yeah. And it's, and it may be I mean some of it too is that like those ones that are white are just kind of boring I mean each one of those individually is not very well done just like some things up here right. The size of Jenkins versus the penguin and, you know, right. So, maybe, maybe if these things are showing like this though the blog writers will be inspired to do something a little. Well certainly this, this picture is a lot better than anything I've ever created. Yeah, that's that's a really beautiful piece of work. This one is something I create all the time and it's, it's, it's exactly me rather flat and boring. Well you underestimate yourself but yeah and I'm a words person I mean I'm never going to create anything interesting. I mean part of it would be nice if they had a resource that they could say you know, I'm aesthetically challenged can you suggest, can you give me an image here. Right, right exactly. Good. Alright. Okay so we've, we've touched on the two blog posts that are the two poll requests that I most wanted to be sure we we looked at. Now where did my. I'm in the wrong window. There we go let's bring up the right window. This window. Where is my window. Here we are. Okay, good. All right. So we've talked through the two poll requests that were on my list. Oh no I take about we've talked through one there's another one that I want to be sure that we get to, which is image contributing guidelines so Kevin has, has made some recommendations on hey let's do images. And let's set some a little bit better set of standards for images on how we do them. Ah, so here we go. Yeah, maybe. And so let's what I wanted to do is let's look at the way he's phrased it and see if there are any things that the rest of you would say oh hey we should change this or that. Can you make this just a little bit larger. Somebody can get her get new glasses I think I'm just absolutely is that is that large enough. Yeah that's good. Okay, great. All right, so this one needs to be fixed site local URLs. Oh no no this is a contributing guide wrong comment bad comment. Sorry. Okay. All right, so. Oh this is him just changing into sentence per line. Okay sorry so we can ignore this ignore ignore ignore. And now let's find. I want to find the thing about image layout let's come on where's the images, adding images okay so new section. All right so when you add screenshots or images. Be sure that they are focused clear and useful use consistent screen dimensions. Okay, between 1024 by 768 and 1440 by 900. Focus the screenshots coverage. Okay, right so so zoom in on the piece that matters and provide alt text now this is something we don't do. And that's, that's difficult for those who are in who are visually impaired right depending on images is a bad thing if we don't do alt text. So it's a it's a good place for us to say hey let's improve our behavior here and use alt text. Yeah. Now, that's not terribly heavyweight in terms of standards for pictures. Let's do some quick scanning to see if there's more. No, this is just sentence per line. Okay, well what I would say is missing for somebody and this is probably me. I don't know how to implement any of those things and ask you doctor. Okay, so guidance on how to actually insert an image. Is that what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, you know, I knew how to, I can insert an image and if it's too small or too big on the page I can change the width and stuff but but you know I need specifics but I don't know how to specify that, you know what this specific is there. Right. Okay, so how about let's put that in Docs office hours Asia, Asia, noted that it would be good to insert a an example. Image markup into this text. Or a link to the ASCII doc documentation that tells you how to do it too. Right. Link to the ASCII doc documentation. If it's good. So that the reader, the writer can see multiple examples of image placement on the page. Or how to implement these standards we could just put it in generic agent text wrapping text wrapping and alt text and write alt text and how to implement any other image standards. Yeah, that's how about that how to implement practices described in this page. Yeah. Good. Okay, like I'm not the one where he says this center in like, I'm not sure I feel about that it's a real problem because some of those Jenkins screens are really big and really busy. No, you put a screenshot of the whole thing you can't see. It's also disorienting. I've done it where I take a little corner of it and that's there.  Right. Exactly. The, the complexity there is how do I get enough, enough focus to, to not lose visual, but still retain context. Yeah, right. All right. Now I apologize we've hit my, my hour limit that I can do. You stayed up late tonight dad. I did. It's, it's late and I need some sleep. And I need to go back to the kitchen. Mahmoud, as far as I know, are you in Egypt? Yeah, it's 5pm right now. Okay, so it's, it's not five wait a sec, 5pm. I would have assumed. Okay, yes, it's an hour of the morning for you. Okay. Yeah. Oh, dear. Okay. Well, congratulations. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, it was great. I hope you'll come back. You were fun. Well, and you are certainly welcome in, we do docs office hours Europe that may be better suited to your waking hours, but it's up to you. We're happy to have you in either or both. Okay, I will join both as possible. And I'm currently going to join UX stage, because I'm interesting to hear about stuff about UX to make Jenkins better. Great. Look forward to seeing you there. That's wonderful. And I have just a little bit of a question about pagination. I have seen pagination and blog have been changed. And, and blog blog insights, it hasn't changed. So we can work on it to be and Jenkins components as it's served here and here. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. So you're saying that the pagination has changed because it certainly has changed here. Where is it that you say it hasn't changed. Plug insights, the plugin plugin sites. I don't know what that is, but plugins, plugins. Oh, plugins. Oh, this one. Okay. So, so I see. So what you're saying is here if we can, that this uses a different pagination component. I think that's what you're saying, right. So if I search for get, for instance, here the pagination component is a different component. Correct. Yeah. And now that's, that's one. I don't think anybody's proposed making the pagination into a web component. I'm not sure how it would work. But it's worth asking Gavin Mogan and Jan Faricic. If if that is a viable web component or not. Interesting question. I don't, I was thoroughly impressed when Gavin made this top bar into a web component. And when he made this bottom bar into a web component, those, those things were already more than I expected was possible. And so it may in fact be possible to have the have the pagination be a web component as well. Like it can be a web component. We can share the data through the component to ads to have the right pagination through all the websites. So I kind of started proposing that this issue, but I forgot where I propose it. And I proposed it and plugins, plugins rebel. So, so I will mention the other people are converting it to the component it will be the right way, or just editing it plugins websites. So, and the right, right or wrongness in web layout is, I am exactly the wrong person to ask on writer wrongness, young and Gavin, both know, much better than I would ever know what's what are good practices and what aren't good practices and doing web page design and so trust, trust them and chat with them about it me me I, I'm lucky to have opinions about how things look. And I know my opinions are invalid when it comes to how they should be done in terms of the markup. Me too. It actually be fun if they're playing with this stuff to have an announced meeting where they would be there and anybody who's interested could show up and talk about these things. The challenge there is that Gavin is more on your schedule Meg, is more on the time zone that my moods in being from the UK and so Gavin is a late night person and therefore they don't really have a time of day when they actually have overlapping overlapping personal calendar well one or the other could be you know either one of them could be. Could, could I ask, I'm asking for their username on the hub so. Yeah, so the username on GitHub is Hawkeye, H-A-L-K-E-Y. Oh yeah I know it's own the rebel about Jenkins component right. Right. Yep. Okay. And that's our the other one. And you can see that on the poll request. The blood ones. The blood one. Okay, right. Yep. Thanks so much. You bet. Any other topics before we end for today. Good meeting. That's cool. All right, thanks everybody recording should be available 24 to 48 hours depending on how well or poorly I do at getting it uploaded. Along with all those GSAC things you have to review.


already available on the session taken by Hon. Mr. A. Hari Pashad. That's doing extremely well and an Indian Easement Act which has its own facets and the ways we requested him and he acceded to our request to give an overview, origin and nature and the characteristics under the Indian Easement Act in these aspects. And before we were going live, I was informing him that on the previous session, his passion for taking the sessions forward. On that day there was torrential rains and we were saying it was raining like cat and dogs, but the flow of judgments were equally on the same flow. And without taking much time, I would request Mr. A. Hari Pashad to unmute himself and to take things forward. Audio, sir. And it's a pleasure on behalf of all those participants who are watching us live on the Facebook and YouTube, coupled with on this platform. Those who have missed the sessions can like, subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel. Audio, sir. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Vikas. Thank you for the opportunity and after a long time we are joining on webinar. Thank you very much. And today, as pointed out by Mr. Vikas, this is a very important subject for any civil lawyer is concerned. Law of easements is an adjunct to the law of property because without, you can't conceive a property without subject to any easementary rights that is impossible to be conceived. Because before going into the integrities of the act, I think I will just give you some broad idea about the understanding of any statute for that matter, not only easements act for that matter, any statute because every statute is enacted with an object or with a purpose to serve. Here the law of easements is an appendage to the transfer of property act. You can see one, this common feature is that both these enactments were made in the year 1882. Both TP Act and the easements act were enacted together. And those who are interested in this understanding the scheme of a statute, you may please refer to one decision of the Madras High Court. I don't remember the citation right now but I can give you the year, 1955 Madras. It's a full bench decision by Madras High Court, rendered by then Chief Justice Mr Raj Manar, who is supposed to be a very learned judge of the Madras High Court. Just as Raj Manar, there is a story about him that he refused to go to Supreme Court because when he was offered with this elevation to Supreme Court, he said no, I prefer to be the Chief Justice of Madras High Court rather than a puny judge of the Supreme Court. That was his reaction to that. That's what people say at that time. So Justice Raj Manar's decision is there, which says that was a context where Raj Manar was considering the intricate connection between CPC and the Limitation Act. Then you have to understand one thing CPC and the Limitation Act both were enacted in the year 1908 because Limitation Act of course it is replaced by 1963 act. But then originally both this Court as well as CPC as well as this Limitation Act both came into existence in 1908 and interpreting the provisions of CPC, his lordship laid out that there is a legislative scheme and if you want to understand whether CPC is applicable to any particular forum or not, you have to consider whether the forum is guided by the principles of CPC. Likewise, if we apply that principle here, the Eastmans Act and the Transformer Property Act both are enacted in the year 1882 and there is a common thread running through these enactments which relate to the enjoyment of properties. This is only by way of introduction and telling you this approach to understand the legislative intent and purpose of any statute for that matter. Now coming to the law of Eastmans, as I pointed out earlier, law of Eastmans is a necessary adjunct to the law of property. There is hardly any land conceivable which does not depend for its enjoyment in one way or other on the indulgence of the owners of neighboring lands. It can be in many ways, it can be natural rights falling under section 11 or prescriptive rights like light and air falling under section 15 that of course we will go into the details later in point of time. But there is a general statement possible that there cannot be a land which could be enjoyed without depending on another land or land belonging to another person in any manner. Now in this context we will just refer to section 4 of the Eastmans Act which is the definition of Eastmans that is very important for our further discussions. Eastmans defined an Eastmans is a right which the owner or occupier of certain land possesses as such for the beneficial enjoyment of that land to do and continue to do something or to prevent and continue to prevent something being done in or upon or in respect of certain other land not his own. This is the definition. So there are certain very very important features to be considered in this definition. An Eastmans is a right which the owner or occupier certain land possesses very clear no doubt. As such for the beneficial enjoyment of that land for the beneficial enjoyment of the owner's land to do and continue to do something. So that is the enjoyment possible to do something or continue to do something or to prevent or continue to prevent something being done. So this is the four modes of enjoyment possible to do or continue to do something or to prevent and continue to prevent something being done in respect of a land owned by a particular person and this doing or not doing is in or upon or in respect of certain land not his own that is very important. So there cannot be any easementary right in respect of one's own land, there cannot be any easementary right in respect of a land where one person has even a fractional right. So if there is a tinge of ownership then you cannot claim easement under section 4 because it is exercised on another man's land. So that is the very important feature of this easement defined under the Indian easements Act. Now to understand the statutory this working scheme rather we will have to consider the terms dominant heritage and Serbian heritage. Serbian heritage is the land for the beneficial enjoyment of which the right exists. It is for the benefit of that land the right is claimed that is called dominant heritage and the Serbian heritage is the land on which the library is imposed for the beneficial enjoyment of the other land. So where the library is cost it is cost it is called the Serbian tournament and for which benefit for whose benefit this is claimed is called the dominant heritage. Likewise a person owning this easement right is called or rather a person enjoying this easement right is called a dominant owner and a person whose land suffers this easement right is called the Serbian owner. So these expressions you will find in definitions for itself section 4 itself the land for the beneficial enjoyment of which the right exists is called the dominant heritage and the owner or occupier thereof the dominant owner and the land on which the library is imposed is called the Serbian heritage and the owner or occupier thereof the Serbian owner. So these are the expressions to be clearly understood when we consider the other provisions of this enactment. Then another aspect is that easements are available not only in respect of land as such anything permanently attached to land is also liable to be subject to the law of easements for example buildings you can claim easement right in respect of buildings for example light and air then right of passage through a building these are all claimable in respect of a building though it is not land but it is a fixture permanently attached to earth. So that is another feature of this easement right then if you read section 4 clearly you will see that the dominant owner need not be the person who actually owns a land even a person in possession can claim easement because section 4 says easement is a right which the owner or occupier of certain land possesses. So even an occupier can claim easement right it is something short of an ownership. So you for claiming ownership one need not be the absolute owner of a property on which or for which the right is claimed even an occupier can claim easement right in respect of another man's land that is clear from section 4. Now just now having stated so now we shall come to the six points six ingredients which can constitute a claim or rather which which which can be raised for claiming easement right what are they one there must be a dominant and survey and tenement. So for claiming easement right there must be a dominant tenement and the survey and tenement then two an easement must accommodate the dominant tenement easement must accommodate the dominant tenement means it is for the beneficial enjoyment of the dominant tenement then come three point three the right of easement must be possessed for the beneficial enjoyment of the dominant tenement it is possessed for the beneficial enjoyment not for the see there cannot be a destruction of the survey and tenement for the purpose of dominant tenement both should be enjoyed in its own way and the survey and tenement suffers a liability for the beneficial enjoyment of the dominant tenement. So, that is the third characteristic. Then fourth, dominant and survey and tenement owners must be different persons. So, there cannot be those if the owners of two properties become one and the same or rather if there is a coalescence of right of the dominant tenement and the survey and tenement the easement right comes to an end. For having an easement the dominant tenement and survey and sorry dominant and survey and owners must be two different persons. Then five, the right should entitle the dominant tenement sorry the right should entitle the dominant owner to do and continue to do something or to prevent and continue to prevent something being done in or upon or in respect of the survey and tenement. So, that is the way in which it is exercised. The last one that something must be of a certain or well-defined character and must be capable of forming the subject matter of a grand. So, easement must be something which is of a certain or well-defined character because there cannot be an evasive right called easement it must be certain and definite and must be capable of forming of subject matter of a grand. It should be capable of being a subject matter of a grand means the the other owner the survey and owner could have granted it to the other party though it should be in a tangible form which can be capable which could be capable of being granted. Now that is the sixth character. So, we have seen there must be a dominant and survey and tenement the easement is to accommodate the dominant tenement right of easement must be possess for the beneficial enjoyment of the dominant tenement dominant and survey and owners must be different persons right should entitle the dominant owner to do and continue to do something or to prevent and continue to prevent something being done in or upon in respect of the survey and tenement and that the something must be of a certain or well-defined character and it must be capable of forming subject matter of a grand. If all these ingredients are satisfied there is a easement right created in respect of one proper for the beneficial enjoyment of one property and it costs a liability on the other property. So, these are the essential ingredients of easements then. So, we have seen easements are restrictions because in this context before dealing with section 7 elaborately I will just read out one sentence from section 7 of the easements act which says, easements are restrictions of one or other of the following rights that is how the section proceeds easements are restrictions of one or other of the following rights then exclusive right to enjoy right to advantages arising from situation those are the subsections that we will discuss later. So, for an easy understanding I would draw attention to section 7 saying that easements are restrictions on one or other of the following rights. So, easements are restrictions in respect of the survey and donors right over the survey and tenement for the beneficial enjoyment of the dominant tenement owned by the dominant owner. So, this is the understanding of easement law and this is part of an adjunct this is an adjunct to the property law and every property capable of being enjoyed is either benefited by some easements or rather burdened by some easements that is inseparable right to property and easements are inseparable. So, that is the that is the as a preface I may point out these aspects. Now, coming to different kinds of easements different kinds of easements possible if you go to various sections that we probably we may do it in the second part we may venture to do that in the second part. I will just tell you about the possibilities of this different kinds of easements. Now, easements can be positive or negative easements positive easements and they are classified with reference to their mode of enjoyment whether it is a positive easement or a negative easement is identified with reference to the mode of their enjoyment. The right to do and continue to do something on the survey and heritage is known as a positive easement. We have seen that there is a right to do and continue to do something or to prevent and continue to prevent something being done. So, that is the definition of easement under section 4. So, first part of the section 4 which permits a party which gives a party a right to do and continue to do something on the survey and heritage is known as a positive easement. Then right to prevent and continue to prevent something being done on the land is called the negative easement. So, if it is a positive act right to do a particular thing or continue to do a particular thing it is a positive easement. If it is a right to prevent something or continue to prevent something being done in or upon a property it is called a negative easement. So, these are the two types of easements negative a positive and negative easements. Now, another set of another two sets of easements these are these are referred to in payers normally they are actually two sides of one coin. Then another set of these easements continuous and discontinuous easement that of course, you will get a definition in section 5. We will go to section 5 later, but I will just tell you what is the principle in section 5. Section 5 says one minute please. Section 5 says easements either are either continuous or discontinuous apparent or non-apparent. So, we are dealing with continuous easements now. A continuous easement is one whose enjoyment is or may be continual without the act of man. So, any easement which continues without human beings intervention is called a continuous easement. A discontinuous easement is one that needs the act of man for its enjoyment. Classic example for this continuous easement is right to take water from a roulette or a stream because it flows naturally it flows because of the gravity it flows. So, there is no intervention of human being in the water flow. So, anybody having a right to take water from a stream running in a natural way, not a what you call artificial channel made by human beings with reference to natural streams I am telling you that is a continuous easement. Whereas, if you want to get a prescription easement right established on another man's land for walking, you have to walk for a continuous period of 20 years as of right as an easement etc which are the ingredients in section 15 we will go to that aspect later. So, if you comply with the provisions in section 15 by walking continuously for more than 20 years, you get a right of way of prescriptive easement which is a discontinuous easement. So, that is the distinction between continuous easement and discontinuous easement. Then another set of characteristics of easement right is apparent and non-apparent easements.  Non-apparent easements are easements which are not so visible that is it. Eastmans are divided with reference to the evidence of their existence as apparent and non-apparent easements. An apparent easement is one the existence of which is shown by some permanent sign which upon careful inspection by a competent person would be visible to hint a non-apparent easement is one that no such sign. For example, water flowing through a definite channel on the surface of water it is a visible thing it is an apparent easement whereas if you are claiming a right for a what you call this underground water with channels not visible with naked eyes that is a non-apparent easement. Then another set of easements is limited easements for limited type or limited on certain conditions that is also possible. For example, limited type means suppose you have a right of passage through a particular area where for three months or four months due to inundation that area will be submerged. So, you are not able to pass through that area because of the water logging but still you have an easement right so that is limited type that is exerciseable limited in point of time and certain conditions for example right to bury you will see if you refer to Kathiar on Eastmans Act or Gail on Eastmans is the authority English authority but then for Indian context probably Kathiar I would advise you to look into Kathiar for matters Kathiar and then Sanjeev Rao who is also there all these commentaries you will find the right to bury right to pasture such such easements are there because it depends on certain conditions for example if it's a right to pasture if there is no grass available for this animals to eat then that right can't be exercised so that is also possible limited type or limited certain conditions are also possible such easements are also reckon I mean rather considered in the then you can refer to section 6 for more details you may refer to section 6 of the Eastmans Act I am just giving you an introduction right now then. So, we have seen just some of these aspects kinds of easements positive and negative easements continuous and discontinuous easements apparent and non-apparent easements easements for limited time or easements on condition happening on certain conditions. So, these are the different types of easements conceivable under the Indian Eastmans Act. Now classification of easements with reference to the modes of acquisition that is another important aspect because easements are acquired by either by grand express grand implied grand or prescription. So, depending on the modes of its acquisition acquisition of easement right we have classified the it can be classified into four different categories. What are they? easements acquired by express grants express grand means giving a permission actually grants are in the realm of contract it is not part of Eastmans law. But then we recognize grant as an easement when it is granted to an individual for doing something with the permission of the grantee sorry with the permission of the grantor a right is conferred on the grantee is called an express grant it can be even implied also possible implied grant one example is even prescriptive easement laws grant theory that we will see after when we discuss section 15. So, easements acquired by express grant those aspects are dealt within section 8 of the easements act we will go later section 8. Then easements acquired by an implied grant or implied reservation that is section 13 implied grant is easements of necessity implied reservation is section this quasi easements both falling under section 13 we will see later. Then easements acquired by prescription or prescriptive easements those are in section 15 then customary easements dealt within section 18. So, these are the four types of easements this described in this statute easements acquired by express grant provided in section 8 easements acquired by an implied grant or implied reservation that is section 13. Then comes easements acquired by prescription or prescriptive easements section 15 and customary easements dealt with under section 18. Then implied grant or implied reservation those concepts in section 13 can be further divided into two two categories as I pointed out earlier easements of necessity and quasi easements. Now see this force mainly four subdivisions and the implied grant is further subdivided into two categories as easements of necessity and quasi easements. So, this is the classification of easements with reference to modes of their acquisition. Then so, this is the concepts regarding the right of easement claimable under the Indian easements Act 1882. Now coming to nature and characteristics of the rights that is section 7 is the we will give you an indication as to how the easement right operates it says easements are restrictions of one or other following rights and A and B there are two subsections given A deals with the exclusive right of every owner of immobile property subject to any law for the time being enforced to enjoy and dispose of the same and all products thereof and accessions there too. So, that is A is relating to this it is an intrinsic right it is an intrinsic right available to owner of the property to what you call to enjoy and dispose of the property and all products thereof and accessions there too that is latent in every owner that is called intrinsic right 7A. Then coming to 7B the right of every owner of immobile property subject to any law for the time being enforced to enjoy without disturbance by another the natural advantages arising out arising from its situation. So, this is some sort of a locational advantage claimable under section 7B which is called an extrinsic advantage. So, these are two types of rights referred to as natural rights under section 7 and easements are restrictions on such rights. So, I will just amplify this aspect by saying that suppose I have a land of say one acre over which I have absolute right and the owner I can enjoy the property I can exclude any other person in the entire world from interfering with my enjoyment that is my unbridled right, but then suppose this is subject to suppose my land is in a higher level and another man's land is in a lower level. So, water discharge from my property naturally will go to the other man's land in a lower level and that is a locational advantage of my property to drain water and that is a locational advantage of another man to receive water from my property. So, these are all claimable under section 7, but easements are restrictions to all such rights that is what this statute says. So, this is the nature of easement rights. So, easement rights actually causes some sort of a blemish, some sort of a restriction in the enjoyment of the absolute enjoyment of the property belonging to a person if his land is subject to the this claim of easement by another person. So, that is the easement general principle about easement rewrite. Then so, then next question who can impose easements? Who are the competent persons to impose easements? There also you will get an answer in section 8 which says easements can be imposed by anyone in the circumstances and to the extent in which and to which he may transfer his interest in the survey and heritage. Suppose I own a land, I am capable of transferring the property, I am having absolute right to transfer the property for either for consideration or out of love and affection or I can make a testamentary transfer, it is all possible. As in the same manner, if I have a right to transfer, I can create an easement, I can suffer an easement also that is what section 8 says. So, I can impose an easement on my own land. The other person if you want if he wants to impose a easementary right on my property, I should either give it in the form of a grant or he should acquire it under the provisions of section 14 as a prescriptive easement. These are the two things possible. Then, so generally speaking, the power to impose easements is co-extensive with the power to transfer. So, see if you refer to section one minute transfer track here, there is a section 8 or 9. Just one second please. Yes, section 8. Section 8 of the TPXA is unless a different intention is expressed or necessarily implied, a transfer property passes forthwith to the transfer. All the interest with the transfer is then capable of passing in the property and in the legal incidents thereof. So, section 8 of the TPXA's. So, if you are capable of transferring a property and if you without making any reservation or without expressly providing anything or reserving anything with you, if you transfer, then the whole of your interest will be transferred. Likewise, if you create an easement without restricting, then that of course that easement so created will have full effect. Then, who can acquire easements? So, we have seen who can impose easements. I myself can impose easement either in the form of grant or some other means, whereas the other person can impose easement on my property by prescriptive easement or other rights permitted under section 15. Now, who can acquire easements? Easements can be acquired by the owner of the dominant heritage or on his behalf by any person in possession of the same. So, for acquisition of easements, it need not be the owner himself acquiring it for the benefit of his property. Suppose a property is given on lease for a considerable time. Say for example, 30 years. Let us take it is not an agricultural lease claimable tenancy loss. I am not speaking about that. Assume a situation where a land is given on lease not covered by the agrarian reforms enactments. In Kerala, we have Kerala Land Reforms Act. In other states probably they also have different enactments relating to this land, this tenancy and all. Now, suppose that is not subject to such a law and if a person grants a lease to another person for 30 years and the lecy in possession acquires a prescriptive easement right for the beneficial enjoyment of the lease hold property, then that will be an additional advantage acquired for the purpose of the benefit of this property and that benefit will go to the land. Virtually the owner will be benefited by the acquisition. So, what I am trying to say is that owner need not personally, owner of the dominant tenement need not personally acquire a right. Anybody on behalf of him who is in possession and enjoyment of the property can also acquire an easement right in respect of the dominant tenement and ultimately that will go to the benefit of the land. So, it will ultimately result in the benefit of the owner of the land. So, that is what section 12 says. Easements can be acquired by the owner of the dominant heritage or on his behalf by any person in possession of the same. The right being beneficial to the property, a consent of other person holding an interest in it is not necessary in the case of owners. Even owners can prescribe easement right for and on behalf of the ownership property. Suppose five owners are there and one is in possession and he acquires an easement right in his neighbor's land for the beneficial enjoyment of the ownership property, then that acquisition of easement over the survey and tenement belonging to another will ignore to the benefit of other owners even though they have not contributed anything for acquisition of this easement right. I think I am making myself clear and if there is any doubt please ask so that I can later clarify. Then we have seen easements can be created by express grant that is covered by section 8. Easement may be acquired by an express grant. It may be oral and need not be in writing or registered that is one feature. So a grant created sorry easement created by grant under section 8 need not be in writing it need not be created by a registered document it can even be oral but only thing is that if there is a dispute the oral grant must be capable of being proved otherwise it will not be sustained but law does not insist that it should be by a registered document they load. No particular form is also not necessary for creation no particular form is necessary for creation of an easement right in the form of grant. If the words stated or written convey unequivocally the idea of the grant then the right of easement is created by grant. It must be clear in express terms and it must be clear and it shall not leave any room of doubt then easement can be created by grant even if it is not in writing or not by a registered document oral easement also grant also possible. Then implied grant is also possible for example implied grant one theory is that lost grant there is a theory called right acquired by lost grant. Lost grant means we do not know when this is this right was this we do not know at what point of time the right was started or rather who started it when it was started what was the circumstances under which the right was started. If such things are uncertain or beyond human memory or if it is time immemorial then it is called a right created in antiquity that is called lost grant that is also an implied grant but we do not know who granted in favor of who because these are all past very many years before happened so nobody will be able to say in certain as to when was it granted that is called lost grant that is an implied form of easement and even Kathiar says easement may be acquired by express grant it may be oral and need not be in writing or registered it can be even be implied that is what Kathiar says in his commentaries then so lost grant is one form of implied grant. Now in the easement act in the easement act we have not we will not find a provision for lost grant it is all judgment law deals with this lost grant this easement statute does not provide for that but statute provides two things to indicate implied grants one is easements of necessity and the other is quasi-easements so easements of necessity that is dealt with in section 13 a c and d subsections we will we will go to that section in detail at the next session and quasi-easements are section 13 b d and e f sorry 13 one minute yes 13 a c and e deals with the easements of necessity I think I beg a pardon because d is not the thing a 13 a c and e deals with the easements of necessity 13 b d and f deals with quasi-easements that we will consider later then section 15 deals with prescriptive easements there is also a grant possible grant can be envisaged because suppose you start walking on another man's land as of right as an easement which is required under section 15 and if he the other man does not prevent you from walking there is an implied permission given to you to walk even though you assert a right of yourself non the the the offering no resistance is an indication of an implied grant that is what the law says then theory of presumed grant that I told you earlier because presumed grant is you can only presume a grant why how this right happened it happened by virtue of a grant granted at a long time before and nobody is able to say when it was granted so that is called presumed grant then comes customary easements customary easements are also have origin in this grant because customary easements are claimed we will go to section 18 later customary easements are enjoyed by persons a group of persons ascertained group of persons class of persons it can be a local custom can be a community custom or it can be a custom for a particular event so all customary easements are rights in gross in one sense gross means given to a particular group of persons not an individual right generally I will just explain one aspect here generally easements are private rights all easements are generally private rights because it is claimable by one individual or a family it's all private rights easements but in the case of customary easements they are rights in gross it is available to a group of persons that is a difference in this this easements generally easements on one hand and customary easements on the other hand actually the name customary easements is a misnomer because why because for an easement there must be a dominant tenement and a servient tenement and a dominant donor and a servient donor but in the case of customary easement there is no requirement of having a dominant tenement and a servient tenement it is enjoyed by a group of persons in respect of say for example right to barry right to pasture right to fishery so these are all customary easements possible where there there are no two properties involved so that is anyway that is also coming under section 18 dealt within the same statute so these are the basic idea regarding the what you call this grant implied grant possible then so we have seen what are the easements what are its characteristics then then how who can acquire it who can who can grant it and what are the different types of easements we have seen no we understand another expression anyway not not covered by the statute easements act does not cover it but then there is a concept called profits a pendre profits a pendre is actually is completely different from easement or entirely different from easements why because easements are easements relates to user of land whereas profits a pendre relates to take relates to a right to take profit out of land so when you exercise a right of way when you exercise a right to take water you are not using the land you are only enjoying an amenity attached to the land the suppose a right of way is created on the survey and tenement belonging to a survey donor his property rights are not destroyed he can enjoy the property subject to the easement right imposed on it that doesn't extinguish or rather it doesn't seriously what you call terminate his right of enjoyment whereas in the case of a profit repentry you remove profit from the soil virtually you are taking away something from the land whereas in the case of easement you are only restricting your user to the land that is the essential difference now gail on easements act says and easements relates only to user of land a right to take part of the soil or its produce or to hunt is not an easement but a profits a penry that is the essential difference right to share profit is profits a penry right to use for the beneficial enjoyment of another property is called easements so that is the difference in the case of profit a penry the profits a penry there is no what you call beneficial enjoyment no other land is involved only some this individual right is involved therein as i told you earlier in the case of easement there must be two tenements called dominant tenement and servient tenement and that is not a condition required in the case of a profits a penry and the supreme court in many decisions have clearly held that profits a penry is regarded as a benefit arising out of land and it follows that it is immobile property within the meaning of section within the meaning of the transfer of property act so profit a penry is an immobile property because it is a benefit arising out of the land and all the provisions of tp act and the registration act applies a year 1956 supreme court page 17 you may please refer to this decision very old decision but classic decision a year 56 56 supreme court 17 17 then of course there is a keraland decision probably those who are not in this state may not able may not be able to get it but i can give you one citation here it's a right to collect and remove sand is the profit a penry and it is regarded as immobile property within the definition of tp act read with section 3 26 of the journal clause act that is 2000 volume one kerala law times page one 2000 volume one kerala law times page one then right to catch fish is a profit a penry since the value of the right is more than look is 100 the the document evidencing lease has to be registered that is what supreme court says because section 17 of the registration act says those are which which rights created for more than 100 rupees any transfer or any creation of right more than 100 rupees in respect of immobile property requires registration so right to catch fish is an immobile property and being a profit a penry and the document evidencing such a right should be registered that is what the supreme court says in a year 1996 supreme court 207 96 supreme court 207 equal to 95 95 6 sec 1995 volume 6 sec 520 then so so these are the distinctions between easements and profits a penry profit a penry i'll just give you one more registration of the supreme court a year 68 supreme court 281 a year 1968 supreme court 281 state of bihar versus subodh goval boss a profit a penry in gross is a right exercisable by an indeterminate body of persons to take something from the land of others but not for the more beneficial enjoyment of a dominant tenement is not an easement within the meaning of easements act to the claim of such right the easements act has no application that is what the supreme court says then now we so we have seen the difference between we have we have seen what is profits a penry and what is the difference between easements and profits a penry because easements requires two tenements profits a penry does not require such a thing it only enables a party enables a person to take profits out of the land whereas easement is only for the enjoyment of another land you are imposing an easement right on another man's land that is a difference then easements distinguish from interest in the property interest in the property is entirely different from easementry right because there need not be as I told you earlier a person having no interest in the property also can acquire easement because he must be an occupant of the land then he can create an easement in respect of a land for the benefit of the dominant tenement and that will enable to the benefit of the land that will enable to the land or rather that will add on to the land an easement is merely a privilege appertaining to the dominant tenement which imposes upon the survey and tenement an obligation to suffer something to be done or not to do something in or upon or in respect of the survey and tenement its effect is only to restrict but not to extinguish the ordinary use of the property of the survey and tenement so one even if there is an easement right created say assume there is a right of way created through the middle or rather one side of the property that does not deprive the owner of the survey and tenement to enjoy the property in a manner which does not disturb the easement right that is the principle then usually we find we find we come across pleadings in the plains where both ownership and easement right are claimed together in one in one breath that is legally an incorrect proposition because ownership cannot go with easement right if you are an owner you can't claim easement right in respect of your own your property because section 4 clearly says easement is a right claimable in respect of a land not his own that is word used in section 4 so ownership and easements are inconsistent please or rather mutually destructive please they can't go together a short while ago I told you that this right of easement should be distinguished from right in gross right in gross is claimable by a definite number of persons or a particular class of persons ah ah dehors the property rights or rather irrespective of without regard to the property rights it's a right claimed by a group of persons and it is entirely different from the concept called easement that easements and covenants so there are certain rights conferred ah by certain covenants for example in a partition did probably you will find a covenant providing right of passage through another sharers property after partition suppose one sharer properties one sharers property is abetting a public role and the property set apart to the other person is behind that property and it has no road access directly probably you will find a covenant in the partition did saying that the the person in the the the property lying behind the the other person has a right of passage to the main road through the other property such covenants are possible those are those covenants are not easements those are all in the realm of either grand or contracts so they are not easements in the strip sense then easements and licenses you will find in section 52 onwards in the easements act the concept called license is ah discussed or rather elaborated license the chief distinction between easement and license is in the use of land easements cannot be normally for for example suppose you prescribe an easementary right of passage for rather taking vehicle through another man's land or walking whatever it is suppose you claim a prescriptive right over another man's land and if you may if you acquire this right and it has become absolute then it cannot be defeated you either suppose the person suppose the dominant honor says i don't want this easement right he can release it that's of course but the survey and honor in no way can exterminate or extinguish the easement right imposed on his land in the case of a license it is different it is it is revocable at the instance of the grantor and it is not heritable going by the provisions of the easements act whereas easements are attachments to the property the dominant tenement gets a right attached to it and when the dominant tenement is transferred easement right is also transferred along with the property so it is for the beneficial enjoyment of the dominant tenement as the property changes hands the right also changes hands in the case of license it is not so it is personal purely personal and comes to an end at the volition of the grantor so that is the essential distinction between easements and license so i think the time allotted Mr. Vikas i think is it shall i stop it right now because section 7 to 15 i'll deal in another session what do you say uh say it's your choice the way you want to split up the entire uh this thing no because i no i'll have to go to the specific aspects now this is only general introduction that i told you right now yes so that's the overview for the next time when we take uh the second part and then the judgments part you are already dealing with it okay okay i'll go to any question meanwhile i will ask Mr. Prem to unmute these from okay okay so that this is these are i just wind up by the session by saying no these are the introduction to the law of easements i was just giving you the outline of the nature origin nature and characteristics of easements right now we will go to section 7 uh 13 15 and 18 those are the most important provisions in this statute of course the other sections are there it is easy to read and understand i'll tell you the principles behind the major provisions in the statute dealing with the conferment of easements in the next session yes because the way we discuss that is so 45 minutes one hour correct correct it's almost one hour it's almost one hour that's what i just asked you one of the most fascinating factors is one of though we have done more than 300 sessions but it is one of the rare session where the ultimately the uh the number of participants are more than what it's actually it hasn't fallen down and normally because of these COVID-19 situation we say that when the ECG line goes straight it's very terrifying but if it is is stable or the spike is more it's more more pleasant pleasant that people are more enjoying that okay so i will ask mr prehm meanwhile we can ask people to prehm you are here oh very good yes we used to interact in another platform actually we have connected with sham also as well as prehm also okay okay i used to i used to say sometimes friends think alike very good very good i will have to just say because justice hadik Prasad's journey in the judicially in our state that really represents his diversity of goals and cases to which he has really showed and displayed his legal acumen and of course his judgments make him one of the most outstanding legal minds i have to tell him as a man of brilliant intellect unimpeachable integrity and at most retitude known for his very quiet but very ethical leadership and commitment to the very cause of justice that he has got to the bench of the kerala high school and his illustrious career that is marked by numerous landmark judgments both in the civil and criminal sides that really have provoked a need for all of us to rethink the way we imagine law back then and now and what one could see in justice hadik prasad's is the highest sense of civility decency decorum and sophistication to the judicial discourse and today justice hadik prasad's he has dealt with the history the nature and characteristics of the easements act and he has taken us to the relevant provisions of the easements act by saying the kind of easements in section five and they have dealt with up to section 19 section 18 telling us what are the essentials of an easement what are the characteristics what are the conditions for acquisition and who will acquire the easement everything like that and how an easement is acquired also so it was an absolutely brilliant talk because we could just drill it into our mind what is the actual concept of this easement and within this one hour itself we could get a rough idea regarding this particular statute thank you so much sir. Thank you Prem for the kind words because I understand the the fatimless love that you have towards me that thank you very much for that. I can only add that as I normally write in the judgments I agree so I think that all people who are on the platform watching us live on the Facebook and YouTube coupled with this platform they will agree that it was a capsule form and as they say the capsule gives them more effect immediately so it was a treat to the mind and tomorrow again so we are connecting with the former judge of Kerala I got and very very close to this letters group just as Ram Kumar and we will be taking an tomorrow in his own style he takes with an interactive session we will be sharing eight questions and he has made a request that we should all participate he will ask the questions and he is asking that the participant should give the answers it will be a different format so tomorrow it will be an interactive session that is taking cognizance of an offense by magistrate board of criminal procedures so do stay connected with us at 5 p.m. Actually Mr. Vikas Shyam Prem just as Ram Kumar just as Ram Matthew these are the persons probably you started first time in Kerala during this pandemic this is a webinar actually is it not so Shyam I think you started this Shyam has gone out of line yeah letters started just as Ram Kumar just as Ram Matthews you've also been kind enough to come on our platform Prem has come Shyam has come and anyway that's a good job because you are doing a very good job because I can only say sharing legal knowledge is akin to what your name is Hari means Christian and for Shyam this thing so we are all trying to share the blessings of the God through the if at all I have done something that's all his blessings I have nothing to you all act towards the positiveness generation of the growth of the society at large thank you everyone stay safe stay blessed and I will share with Prem also that he can share those eight questions in his circle so that people can participate because that would be a different interactive session so we will meet sometime later this to complete this we will tie up the date when we take the second part okay okay then bye bye see you then bye Namaste