Hey everyone, thanks for joining me this morning and to listen to me talking about game dance This is a topic. I'm very excited about and I hope to share some of that excitement with all of you I'm then we I sometimes do things like making open source logos for software projects or communities I like to do pixel art for example Sometimes I make these non-verbal assembly instructions to explain algorithms and sometimes You might have seen some people walking around with this huck and shirt with some puns on some band names on them and Another thing I like to do is making very very tiny video games I Also want to learn about you. Who of you is generally interested in making video games yourself That's a lot of hands and that's also that you're here Who of those has actually started to make a video game? That is maybe half or one-third of you. Okay, and who of those has finished to make that video game also I See maybe Four hands, which are left. Okay, so this talk is for those of you Like I was in the same situation, right? I always would start making video games and then I would get kind of stuck halfway and it would be frustrating And then I would have half the game. Huh, so when I found game gems I found that it was an awesome opportunity to actually like force yourself to actually make a Finished game and ship it in the end, which feels really really good My goals for this talk are three-fold I want to explain to you what game gems are and where they come from I want to showcase some of the games I did and like give you a little bit the peak behind the scenes of one of them to see To let you to show you how it was created and most importantly I want to empower all of you to actually participate yourself in one of these and Make it as easy for you as I can to get started Sounds good So what actually is this thing called game jam A very short way to put it. It's a heck of fun for video games So like you have a weekend basically you're given a theme and then alone or in a team You make a video game around that theme and in the end there might be Prices or ratings or something like that, but there doesn't have to be The name game jam this jam component comes from jazz music actually So like in a jam session musicians would meet very spontaneously and like informally to Make music together without a lot of preparation and game gems are kind of in a similar spirit So the first game jam the internet at least knows of was the indie game jam which happened in 2002 To independent video game developers Chris hacker and Sean Barrett Invited some friends to their offers basically And gave them in this case a pre-made engine and invited all of these people to make their own games around that and at the end they put the results on a website and like put some documentation on and This format was really really successful One of the participants in this indie game jam was Jonathan blow, but you might know from games like Braid or the witness for example, which he made later So many people really like that format so only one month later in April 2002 Another person put up a website called Ludum Dare.com Which was another game jam and in this case is this is a virtual game jam So you don't actually go to a common location to participate, but you can participate from anywhere basically and Yeah, the very first Ludum Dare game jam was really small They had about 18 they had exactly 18 submissions so 18 games were submitted and Today's Ludum Dare games have about two thousand to three thousand submissions So it has grown a lot and it has kept going since 2002 There is a long-going debate on how to pronounce this name Some people like to say Ludum Dare and while it's certainly a very daring thing to participate in the game them this is Latin and Then it means to give the game basically or more idiomatically to play a trick on someone And I really really like the atmosphere of this Ludum Dare event It's very very open for beginners for example. It's very supportive I really enjoy how people interact in their community so I can recommend it I have a lot of experience in joining this this game jam I think I found it two or three years ago and I liked it so much that I since then participated ten times in a row by now It happens two or three times a year Um So I said you're given a theme right for these games I'm seriously list of all the Ludum Dare themes so far and many of them put some creative Restrictions on your game design for example one of the themes was ten seconds right one of them was Entire game on one screen and in that case you have to like yeah somehow Think of an idea that fits this theme. That's at least the idea I Think when I first started out the first theme I saw was two button controls So you have to think of a control scheme based on that Yeah, Ludum Dare is considered to be the second largest game them into world So let's look at the largest one, which is the global game jam it happens in the beginning of each year and It has been going since 2009. So it's a bit of a new one and It's yeah, it's driven by a non-profit charity And in this case, it's a distributed game them So you have all over the world several sites where you can go to participate and to meet other game creators So in the in the first global game them they had 1600 participants which created together about 300 games and in the most recent one this year they had 50,000 participants who created 9,000 games and 860 locations all over the world when I looked at this map which they have on the website. I Found this site in the Pacific Ocean and this is actually Hawaii where apparently 56 people also participated in this game jam So here's the list of the game jam themes These are often a bit more vague and more open to interpretation like in 2012 There was just an image of a snake eating its own tail and you had to think of a game That's fit that or the year after that the sound of her heartbeat for example So some other game gems to note are the Nordic game jam Which happens annually in Copenhagen. This is actually a single site where you go to and about 1,000 people participated here You actually need tickets for that, but they do talks and workshops and so on There was the Toad Jam, which happens in Toronto each spring and GitHub sponsors a game. I'm called a game off Which is kind of a celebration of open source software So you're encouraged to create your full game using open source software only and The last one I wanted to mention is the game gem organized by a popular YouTube channel called game makers toolkit Which is focused around game design and game mechanics and they have been doing game gems since two years Which were hugely popular like this year They had also about 3,000 entries, which is awesome And this is much more focused like less focused on a polished game So it's less about the graphics and the the audio, but it's about really clever game mechanics Sometimes these games get developed further after games and so there are some popular commercial games Which you might have heard of which started as game them games For example, Baba is you was an entry to the Nordic game them two years ago to the theme of not there Or mini metro for example was a Ludum Dara entry a few years ago around the theme of minimalism And you might have seen a game called keep talking nobody explodes. There was a global games. I'm entry Okay, so let me show you some games. I made and sell the story of one of them the first entry I made was Like a solo entry it was a theme of shapeshift and they had this little story where like a fairy would give you the ability to Shapeshift, but what the fair we didn't tell you that you shape shift into the closest object to you So congratulations, you were a floor lamp now And the game is then about like moving around at this lamp and zapping little fireflies which then fall down to the carpet and You are supposed to lure a mouse coming out of the mousehole to eat all the cheese on the ground So it's a gamer bond fast reactions and a bit of strategic planning Um Together with the point I made 20,000 pixels into the sea which is a sailing simulator basically So this was actually really interesting for us to learn about how sailboats work and how to put your sail in the correct direction to Go into like go against the wind for example. How you do that and we were stumped for about an hour or so finding out Trying to find out how a boat actually turns how that works Which forces are involved until we realized that you have rudders which yeah help a lot in steering I guess and after we added that it worked much better We made a puzzle game called you remember this German meme was this does for I'm so this is what is that's fine room? and It's a it's a puzzle game basically We are given amount of furniture and you're supposed to put it on the on the floor plan So that you satisfy some conditions For example, you cannot block the door and you couldn't cannot put shelves in front of windows. So you don't block the light We made some interesting Interesting levels around that I think There was a racing game called a bloody small world Which like takes place in the human bloodstream and you are supposed to deliver oxygen to organs of a human body Which is partially very hectic and partially a very meditative experience sorts I'm at ten little letters, which is a very abstract minimalist game about finding out About the shape of letters a bit by basically touching them in the dark and then you get sound feedback and I only had a single day to make this game. So yeah, it's very reduced the idea is very very small and During the game you mostly see this black square and click around in it. That's also fun We made spring clean do not cross which is about Cleaning your apartment with a room bar, but also you have cats and you need to protect your cats from this room bar by Putting in some barrier tapes. So it's about fast reactions again Another game is called splendid adventures on a Sunday afternoon and this was for the theme Combined to incompatible genres. So this is a mixture between a platformer and a text adventure Basically, you'd actually jump over the text to get to places and then you can decide which direction you want to go We're the very talented artists who do these nice back ones in Artists and artifacts you manufacture some sculptures according to your customer's wishes basically It's a bit of a sandbox game. I would say and The most recent one was called capitalist piggies Which is all about looing evil banker piggies into traps by putting coins somewhere and they will eat it and grow and And the game I want to talk to you more about is called right to space we met this last year followed on Dara and Basically the process how it all starts is with a theme announcement, right? So you don't Dara has this Twitter account They also will put the theme on their website and if you're subscribed to the mailing list They will also announce it there so you can't miss it and in this case the theme was running out of space the announcement happens at Zero UTC so in this time zone is deep in the night We were sleeping then I guess and then we meet in the morning to have breakfast and start to brainstorm what we could do with the theme and I want to show you some of the ideas we had for example running out of space the first thing we thought about was hard disks, right? So there are some incoming files and you need to keep your your hard drive Clean basically and decide if you want to keep a video of your summer vacation or the school essay and maybe throw out the virus or something We had the idea of making a mixture between Scrabble and Tetris maybe right so if you create an English word and you're playing field it will disappear Or something about the plant growing roots and it's kind of constricted in the in the space it has This was an idea about like geometric packing right you're giving a number of objects And you want to fit it all into your luggage which might have been fun But then we had to this idea about a game where you have a square grid filled with letters and Also as a playing character you move by typing basically so each time you press a letter This character moves one space to the right and then as soon as you type some special keywords some stuff will happen For example, if you type down your movement direction will change and he will actually start moving downwards And this very first idea we had Yeah the idea to add more items like boxes and holes and keys and in the end we Dropped these more complicated mechanisms and only kept the directional commands and Funnout that this was also very very rich of an idea already So after we thought okay, this might be interesting. We often start by making a very quick ugly prototype So this is how it looked like we we use some graphics we had from an earlier game and basically tried out making some levels and So how that felt like? The advantage of having Letters as your level was that we didn't need a fancy level editor or something we could just use them right to make our levels Which was good Yeah, and then I think we spent the next day Thinking of good levels and this was one of the phases. I enjoyed most in this game Jim, I think like we had this simple rules about Movement and we ourselves had to find out what we could do with him, right? So we found some consequences these rules had on how you can move for example There are some interesting things that happen when you try to turn around in very small corridors And I think we found two or three interesting like revelations which the player can then discover from for themselves Yeah, we had like a kind of playable game at the end of day two or something we had three days in total at That time we invited people to play test. I will talk about that a bit later And after that we just put in time to polish this game At fancy our funds and add very beautiful background graphics and music that fits the game and some sound effects and so on And this is how it looked like in the end And also we ate a lot of pistachios during this game So after you submit your game There's a face where you can play other people's games and comment on them and wait them and We got some pretty encouraging comments for this game Some indie news websites picked it up and reported on them which like made it a bit more visible and many people also liked this effect of having simple rules and complicated consequences of these rules and some other people liked how it looked and a fun thing that happens in the game them often is that some people will Record themselves while they are playing the game, right? They will stream something on Twitch and we caught it in between YouTube later So it's super fun to watch other people playing your game and trying to figure out how it works this person for example Actually did not talk in the stream, but only typed some words into the game itself because right you can write text there basically so The person commented on how they were doing while playing this Yeah, and after three weeks or so the waiting phase closes and then what they do is basically calculate the average score of All the ratings in all categories and then just give you the place in which you are I think in this game them they had about 2,000 submissions or so and These were the the results we got in the end so we made second place overall Which is super surprising to us and we also got very good ratings in the categories fun and innovation If you want to try this game, this is definitely the game. I'm most proud of probably for the games. I made You can check it out here Right and then I want to give you some some tips and tricks I picked up over the years of doing this which might be helpful if you want to do try this for yourself Um First of all, why do I think you should participate? Well, you can probably tell that for me, it's a lot of fun And that's also a very good way to to build skills and train your skills I think both in preparation of the event and also during the event itself You might be forced to learn how to do something you never did before maybe and that's that's also a very valuable thing For me and for me It's super interesting to build interdisciplinary teams also I've been very fortunate to work together with very talented artists for example a person who makes their own music for example and could create background music and Working together in this in this team is a very good experience for me and Yeah, it also always puts me in this flow like state of mind Where I can like work on this game from standing up in the morning to going to bed Which I very rarely experience in other situations though. This is a thing. I always look forward to when participating.  I would say you can participate in a group and you can Reuse some material other people have made like images and sound effects and so on assuming they have free licenses like right of commons and you have three days to make your game and Then in the other rule set the compo rules that I think this combo comes from the demo scene This is like a test of your skills really you have two days you have to work alone and You have to make everything from scratch during this weekend, which is yeah Which is the 10th Some things I recommend to for preparation is for example to have enough food around Like I mostly cook up a large batch of food and get some snacks and drinks So I don't need to think about that during these days because I will have other things on my mind, right? Yeah, I yeah get enough sleep. I would say I Most often also sleep during the event But I know people are different and yeah, some of you might work night shifts or so and The third thing is to build a small demo game before the event even starts So you get a bit more accustomed to the engine you want to use and you can make sure that all of your group members Have the setup working and that you have like a good setup for example This is a very valuable thing also Yeah, speaking of engines There are some large very powerful engines like unity or the unwheel engine for example But I feel like these are too complex and too powerful maybe to start out So what I recommend is a very small cute 2d game engine called love the url is love 2d org It's open source. It's cross-platform It's very Focused but feature complete for me. It has a physics engine built in for example it has support for graphics haters and The community is also very friendly right the they have very nice forums and if you look at the bottom right it says Be warned however that the community sometimes gets too friendly So look out for that Yeah, another engine I started trying out this year is called pico eight And this is something some people call a fantasy console So it's a piece of software that gives you a very constrained things of Set of things you can work with you have an output of 128 by 128 pixels you have like a fixed color palette of 16 colors You have three audio channels and that's all you have basically and you need to work inside of these constraints To make your game which is for me very like it pushes my creativity forward if I am given these constraints This console also has built-in editors as you can see yes has a level editor It has a built-in code editor also So you can actually stay inside of these software all the time while you are making it and then switch between Playing it and making it all the time you can make sound effects and music also in this in the software This is proprietary however, and if you are looking for an open source alternative I would recommend looking at TIC AT which is basically the same thing the Display is a bit larger. You got a bit more pixels, which I personally don't like as much as technically But you also get a level editor or some editor built-in Okay, so What about making graphics? I have sometimes recommended sites like open game art org where you can find Premade character graphics and sprite sheets and like tiles for making maps and so on But personally I've never used them and I've never seen them successfully used Because often like the idea of your game will be so specific that it's not very helpful to have a Premade graphic or try to find a very specific thing and on some site So I would actually recommend drawing graphics yourself There are at least two good ways of doing that you can use pixel art Which is a way to create graphics very fast right because there are not so many pixels you can change it's it's fast to create a 16 by 16 image for example and a software I recommend of doing that is called ace pride I Sometimes do pixel art workshops and one of them was recorded actually So if you're interested in learning about a sport and about making pixel art you can check out this recording I will give the URL to these lights in the end And the other direction would be Vector graphics I guess we have very sharp defined corners you have a lot of flexibility and which graphics to make and Inkscape is another good open source program for creating vector graphics Yeah, and another idea maybe is if you feel if you don't feel comfortable and making very complex graphics yourself You can keep the visual style of your game very very minimalist and abstract Like constrain yourself to a foreground and a background color work with simple to make shapes for example That's something I've seen working very well in the past To the topic of sound effects the first thing to say is definitely at them I have played a lot of games which had no sound at all and that's always a pity because As soon as you add some sort of extra your actions It's gets so much more fluid and juice more juicy and it's more interesting. So definitely add some sounds I think I like to do is record sound effects myself actually So I would walk around my apartment with my smartphone Maybe the the microphone in there is pretty good And then I would hunt for sound effects like how does this sound and how does my drawn up sound and so on And sometimes you can find very fitting sound effects there are so and if you don't want to do that there are some resources like The free sound project for example, which works pretty good You can enter some keywords and you will most of the time get some fitting sound effects for your game You need an account on this site to download the sound effects, which is kind of annoying, but for me it's worth it Yeah, and then there is a software called SFXR, which is basically a sound effect synthesizer This is kind of a heck this was created specifically for Ludum Dara Because I said in this very constrained rules that you need to create the sound effects on that weekend Right, so some people said, okay, we will make a tool that helps you make the sound effects in that moment So you have these preset buttons on the left and you can click on them and then get some sound effect It sounds like an explosion or like a coin pick up or something And it will randomize the sliders a little bit according to constraints And then you will get something that sounds like a coin pick up Maybe and if you're happy with that you can save it and use it in your game There are some web-based remakes of this software also, which you can find Okay music You could compose it yourself, I guess and I do have a friend who does that a lot for our games But if you're like me, you can also find some very good resources for finding music For example in Competech.com is a very good site where a single person has created hundreds of soundtracks basically in all different styles and tempos and so on and what I really like about that site is that you can Filter it very good So you can actually if you want to evoke a certain feeling with this music you can pick on the fields drop down and then select Don't know bouncy and driving maybe and then you will only see music that fit these feelings You can filter for a tempo for a genre and then pick something you like. This is all quite if common sense so in the brainstorming phase I Always try to make sure that in the beginning We don't exclude any ideas because it's kind of kind of discouraging for people if they like have a very Very very yeah an idea that doesn't sound realistic and other people say are we cannot do that Right, so maybe hold back at that moment a little bit and keep it in mind Maybe it will change over time and become something awesome Mmm, and in the other direction don't pick an idea too quickly in my experience It's often a good idea to like if you have a really awesome idea to brainstorm a little bit about more Above that point and maybe see if you find a second or a third idea What you really like and then you can look at these ideas a bit more distantly and see which one of these are like Because yeah, the core mechanic of the game has to be fun. That's for me one of the most important things Yeah, what about the scope of your game? Make it as small as possible if you have this idea for your game and it involves five different enemy types and ten weapons or something It's often a good idea to remove some of that until only the very very core is left like you get a very very focused idea of your game and You save time doing that in all different directions You need to create less graphics you need to code less interactions between different gameplay elements and so on and it Makes for a much more focused game. I think Regarding playtesting. I found it very helpful to do that in person actually so what we try to do each time is about one day or so before we need to submit our game we would invite some friends to the place where we are making the game and actually sit that person in front of the computer and Just let them play this game without commenting on anything Which is sometimes a helpful way to see if there is something the person does not understand it All right because the game needs to explain this and if other people on the internet will play this There won't be a friendly person sitting beside them and giving them hints so this is a good way to just throwing them in the water and seeing what happens and Doing it in person is helpful for me because you get so much more feedback that way like the channel is very broad compared to a person Only sending your text feedbacks for example over a mail Right you can see their emotions and all of their reactions and their confusions and yeah, there's something I recommend doing that in person So what's next if you are actually interested in making a game yourself? There are some large game times coming up which you can mark in your calendar for example the next little diary is coming up in the beginning of October if you go to this website you can create an account there and Then about two weeks before this actually event happens There is this phase where all the participants decide on a theme themselves You can actually suggest your own themes down and then other people can vote on these themes and Multi-stage process at the end only one theme will be remaining Mmm the next global game gem is coming up next year and the end of January and At that point you can look at this map again Maybe you can find a gem site where you can go in your city or something where you can join other people who are interested in doing that Also create your own gem site I think if you want to do this in your company or something you can register on the site and make it an official Global game gem site. There are certain Restrictions which you need to keep in mind like there needs to be an event coordinator and you need to provide beverage. I think yeah Mmm, if you are kind of impatient and don't wait as long you can also look at this site called Indie game dance comm Which gives you a huge calendar of games I'm going on so yeah, I think today there are at least 20 or 30 games happening at the same time and Yeah, it might be fun too if there's a weekend coming up where you want to make a game You can look on this calendar and pick something you would enjoy There is also another site called itch I o which is like a hosting service for independent video games And they also sometimes organize their own events their own game dance and they have a similar calendar on their side This is only the first third of that calendar because there are so many they didn't fit on on the screen I Once saw a game time on there called bit jam for example Which had the constraint that the output could only be a single bit So it could either be a black screen or a white screen that was the the whole output that was allowed and the challenge was to make an interesting game under these restrictions and People definitely made interesting games like a climbing simulator where you tilted your keyboard to the side And then with your hand climbed up the the keys which was kind of your playing field and the screen would give you feedback if you Fell down or something. Yeah Yeah, then last year I found another side which I really enjoyed another game jam Which is called the one hour game jam So this takes place each Saturday and goes for exactly one hour starting at 20 UTC And then they another theme and you can try to make a game in one hour if you want The way that this works is that at the end of this hour one person will start Streaming the submitted games and as long as the stream is going you can still submit your games So it's often a bit more than one hour that you have available and Then after that I also found another hilarious thing which is called the zero hour game jam Which takes place when shifting the clocks back from daily savings time in autumn so it goes from 2 a.m.. 2 2 a.m.. And People have made games in that time period So if you want you can not only make games in a weekend, but apparently also in no time at all right, so Definitely if you are interested in trying this I would encourage you to That's all I got for today hit me with any questions you might have If you have questions there is an angel with a microphone, is there a question from the internet? Okay Yeah, so I would say Subscribe I was very impressed of what a cool universe and I have to submit here a warm welcome and thanks a lot


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Good evening friends, as we had promised that we will be bringing the part 2 of section 31 sub clause 2 and sub clause 3 of the CRPC. Those who have missed the first part that is in respect to section 31 sub clause 1 of the CRPC, they can watch us on the Beyond Law CLC channel. And who else can better explain the nitty-gritty of the criminal procedure court and all other different aspects. Though we likely say that Justice Ramkumar says that I will take sessions on the criminal aspects more but his sessions on the bill are also there with us and they are also doing extremely well. It's always eye-opener when Justice Ramkumar takes his sessions. Thank you for accepting our invite. I will straight away ask sir to take over the session. Thank you Mr. Vikas. Good evening friends. We will make a quick recap of last time's session. Today we are going to deal with subsections 2 and 3 of section 31. The other day that is on 24th February, we noticed the application of section 31 subsection 1. So as to conclude, we concluded, we came to 4 conclusions. Number one, in cases involving several offenses at one trial, single trial, unless the court directs that the sentence of imprisonment should run concurrently, that is simultaneously, all such sentences are to run consecutively, that is one after the other. Either the court should direct that sentence that shall run concurrently, then it will not run consecutively. Or if the court is silent about the mode of suffering the sentence, then also the sentence will run consecutively one after the other, cumulatively. Second principle we learned was the mandate of section 31 clause 1 enjoined that in all such cases the court has to direct the order, the order in which each sentence shall commence after the expiration of the other, in plurality of offenses in one single trial. For every, the court has to give it the direction regarding the order in which each sentence shall commence after the expiration of each other sentence, that we noticed the other day. Then third rule was if among the plurality of such offenses, there is a sentence of imprisonment for life imprisonment, where the convict has to undergo the imprisonment till his death entire lifetime. The court cannot direct that the sentences of imprisonment for a fixed term shall run consecutively after the sentence of imprisonment for life, for obvious reasons, because imprisonment for life means for the entire remainder of the biological life of the convict, he has to undergo that sentence. So, you cannot, court cannot say that the imprisonment for fixed term shall be suffered after suffering the imprisonment for life, because he will have to suffer it in the other world after death, which is impossible. Therefore, then the converse is possible, that is, that is the fourth rule we learned, the converse is possible. The court can say that the imprisonment for life shall begin only after suffering the imprisonment for fixed term, there is no problem, fixed term imprisonment shall be suffered first, then the imprisonment for life shall begin. The order of suffering the sentence should be there in the court, that is what section 31, subsection 1 mandates. Now, let us examine subsections 2 and 3 of section 31, subsection 2 I will read. In the case of consecutive sentences, it shall not be necessary for the court by reason only of the aggregate punishment for the several offenses, being in excess of the punishment which it is competent inflict on conviction of a single offense, to send the offender for trial before a higher court. I will explain it in better terms, when we apply the law to the, to a problem. Provided that, clause A, in no case shall such person be sentenced to imprisonment for a longer period than 14 years. Clause B, the aggregate punishment shall not exceed twice the amount of punishment which the court is competent inflict for a single offense. The two clauses for the proviso, then we come to subsection 3 of section 31. For the purpose of appeal by a convicted person, the aggregate of the consecutive sentences passed against him under this section shall be deemed to be a single sentence. Now, let us understand subsections 2 and 3 by discussing an illustration. I am giving you a problem and we will apply the law to this problem. Any law is better understood when applied to actual concrete situations. Now, the problem is this, as members of an unlawful assembly sharing the same common object, accused numbers 1 to 5, five accused, A1 to A5, committed rioting and attacked three prosecution witnesses, PWs 1 to 3, from a public road at 7 p.m. A1 to A4, accused numbers 1 to 4, were armed with iron rods. Fifth man, A5, was having no weapon. During the said rioting, A1 to A4 caused grievous injuries including fractures to all the three prosecution witnesses, PWs 1 to 3, by hitting them with iron rods. A5, who was not armed with any deadly weapon, fisted and kicked PWs 1 and 1 to 3. A1 to A5 were charged by the Chief Judicial Ministry, that is CJM, for offences punishable under section 143, 147, 148, 324, 326, redwood section 149, IPC. 143 being member of an unlawful assembly. 147 is members of the unlawful assembly committing rioting. 148 is members of the unlawful assembly armed with deadly weapons committing rioting. And 324 is voluntarily causing hurt with a dangerous weapon. 326 is voluntarily causing hurt with a dangerous weapon. And 149 is committing all the offences in prosecute of the common object of the unlawful assembly. For that section 149, if there is a separate section for which there can be a sentence also, unlike section 34, something done in furtherance of the common intention. Here 149 itself is a penal offence. Now after trial, the CJM found them guilty of all these offences and passed their sentence as below. 143 section 143 rigorous imprisonment for 3 months and a fine. Section 147 rigorous imprisonment for 1 year and fine. Section 148 rigorous imprisonment for 3 years and fine. Section 324 rigorous imprisonment for 3 years and fine. Section 326 rigorous imprisonment for 7 years and fine. So this is the most grave offence because they were inflicted fractures. Then 149 rigorous imprisonment for 3 years and fine. So total imprisonment is 17 years and 3 months. There was no direction that the sentences shall run concurrently or consecutively. Now we come to the questions. We will discuss 4 questions. Question number 1. Was the sentence of imprisonment imposed by the CJM in this case concurrent or consecutive? You cannot have any doubt. We discussed the other day. It can only be consecutive because there was no direction that the sentences shall run concurrently. Unless the court makes such a direction, every sentence shall be consecutive. That is the rule under 31-1. In fact, if the court is judgment is silent regarding the mode of suffering the sentence, then also the sentence shall be consecutive. That is the rule under section 31. Then the second question is what is the application of section 31-2? Subsection 2 of section 31 CRPC to the present problem. The aggregate of the consecutive sentences imposed by the CJM comes to, as I told you, 17 years and 3 months which is beyond the sentencing limit of the judicial magistrate which is 7 years under section 29-1 of the CRPC. Under section 29-1, the maximum sentence which is judicial magistrate can impose this imprisonment up to 7 years. Now the 17 years and 3 months be much beyond the sentencing limit of the CJM. Now what section 31-2 says is that if because of the, merely because the aggregate of the consecutive sentence imposed is beyond the sentencing limit of the court, it is not necessary for the court to send the accused for trial before a higher court. That is what section 31-2 says. See, when a magistrate of the first class has to try cases, supposing the total sentence which he can impose consecutive aggregate of the total sentence, because his sentencing limit is 3 years. So if the aggregate of the sentence, total sentence imposed exceeds 3 years, then supposing he feels that the magistrate of the first class while trying an offense feels that for example 326, the sentence can go up to imprisonment for life. The magistrate cannot impose that. The maximum limit of the judicial magistrate of the first class is 3 years. So the magistrate will have to think whether the case should be allowed to be tried by a court of session. Supposing during the trial of the case, the magistrate is of the opinion that this case ought to be tried by the court of session. He has a power under the CRPC, section 323 CRPC. He can invoke that power even though none of the offenses is punishable exclusively by a court of session. The magistrate is of the view that the court of session should appropriately try the case. He can invoke the power under section 323 CRPC and commit the case to the court of session. The usual instance of committing cases which are magistral offenses to a court of session is in cases where there are cases and counter cases, cross cases. The main case may be a murder case which may be pending trial before a court of session. The counter case may be a magistral offenses which may be pending trial before a magistrate. So when the magistrate during trial is informed or comes to know that the main case is pending before the court of session, there is a judge made law that both the cases should be tried by same judge. Because what is case and counter case? Case and counter case is the same occurrence. Different versions, conflicting versions of the same occurrence. A party may say that B party was the aggressor. B party may say that A party was the aggressor. So it is only when both the cases are tried by the same judge he can find out which party was the first aggressor and then decide accordingly. That is why this judge made law that both cases should be tried by the same judge. Now the main case is pending trial before the court of session. The counter case is pending before the magistrate because all offenses are magistral offenses. This may be an appropriate case where the magistrate will be justified in invoking his power under section 323. And committing the case to the court of session. So we tried jointly along with the main case. Likewise, 31-2 says if the magistrate is of opinion that the case is because the aggregate sentence is beyond his sentencing limit of 3 years. No, just because the aggregate sentence is beyond his sentencing limit, he need not send the case to a higher court. That is the purpose of this 31-2. Now question 3. What if any are the illegalities committed by the CJM? CJM committed certain illegality. First I will highlight one illegality which we have considered the other day also. A5 who was not armed with any deadly weapon could not have been convicted under section 148, read with section 149. 148 is a section where any member of an unlawful assembly if armed with deadly weapon commits writing or participates in the writing. Here A5 was not armed with any deadly weapon. So even if he participated in the writing by kicking or fisting, he cannot be convicted under section 148 with the illegal section 149. This is the view taken by the courts in certain cases. The first decision I could come across is Inre Muthuswamy Gaundan. Earlier 1942 Madras 420. The author of the judgement is Justice Orville. Then there is a Kerala decision, Vijayan versus state of Kerala. 1959 KLT 704. Justice S. Velu Pillai was the judge who decided that kid. There also one accused who was not armed with deadly weapon was convicted by the lower court. The judge said no, he cannot be convicted under section 149 because he was not armed with any deadly weapon. Then there is a decision of the Supreme Court. Kabul Singh versus state of Punjab. 1995 SCC criminal, page 1035. Kabul Singh versus state of Punjab. 1995 SCC criminal, page 1035. MK Mukherjee and JT Nainavathi, Justice MK Mukherjee is the author of the judgement. There towards the end of the judgement it is held that one particular accused who was not armed with deadly weapon could not have been convicted under section 148. 148 read with section 149. His conviction was converted into one punishable under section 147. The conviction under section 148 was acquitted, dislodged. Then there is a decision of the Kerala decision of which this humble self is the author. That is, Kartin Davida Suresh versus state of Kerala. 2006 one KLT 78. Justice Patmanavandaya and myself were the judges and I am the author of the judgement. There also the earlier decisions were referred to and it was held that a person who is not armed with deadly weapon cannot be convicted under section 148. Secondly, the KLT committed by the CGM in this case is that while imposing consecutive sentence, we already noted the other day under section 31.1. The court has to direct the order in which each sentence of imprisonment shall commence after the expiration of the other as enjoyed by section 31.1 CRPZ. This was not done in this case. The judicial verdicts which mandate this is one SHIBU versus state of Kerala. 2010 4KHKHC Kerala High Court cases paid 62. The other is myself SHIBU versus state of Kerala 2010 4KHC 62. Even though my view was disapproved by a division bench of the Kerala High Court, subsequently a constitution bench of the Supreme Court to concurred with my view, though without referring to my judgement. The constitution bench said that there should be a direction in the judgement itself regarding the order in which each sentence has to commence at the expiration of the other. That the constitution bench decision is Muthuramalingam versus state represented by inspector of police. AIR 2016 Supreme Court page 3340 corresponding to 2016 volume 8 SCC 313, 5 judges. Chief Justice T.S. Thakur is the author of the judgement. The other judges were Justice M. Ibrahim Khalifullah, A.K. Sikri, S.A. Bobde and R. Banu Madhi. No such direction was made in the present case by the CJM. That is the second illegality. Now the third illegality in the judgement of the CJM is the aggregate of the consecutive sentence of the imprisonment of 17 years and 3 months imposed on each of the accused persons has exceeded 14 years. We have already noted in no case shall clause A of the proviso to section 31-2. In no case shall such person be sentenced to imprisonment for a longer period than 14 years. Here the judgement, as per the judgement, the total period is 17 years and 3 months. So clause A of the proviso to section 31-2 CRPC was violated. Then the fourth illegality committed by the CJM is that the aggregate punishment imposed on each of the accused has exceeded twice the punishment which the CJM was competent to inflict. His sentencing limit is only 7 years, as per section 29-1 CRPC. But he could go only up to 14 years, that is twice the sentencing limit of 7 years, 7 plus 7, 14. Instead of that he went up to 17 years and 3 months. So clause B of the proviso to section 31-2 was also violated by the CJM. Now the last question is regarding the appeal. Aggrieved by the conviction entered and sentenced passed by the CJM, A-1 to A-5, all the four A-5 accused, filed an appeal before the court of session under section 374-3 CRPC. The public prosecutor in charge of the case raised a preliminary objection that the appeal before the court of session was not maintainable. And according to him the appeal would lie only to the high court under section 374-2. The appropriate section according to him was 374-2 and not section 374-3. The defense counsel argued that the maximum sentence awarded by the CJM was only 7 years. So he has not exceeded 7 years, 7 years is the maximum sentence for the offense punishable under section 326. For the other offenses only 3 years was given and 3, 143 only 3 months. Therefore the defense counsel argued that the maximum sentence imposed for an offense is only 7 years. He has not exceeded 7 years as provided under section 374-2 CRPC. Hence the according to the defense counsel section 374-2 is not attracted. Now which is the correct form for appeal in this case. Now the correct form for appeal is the high court as contented by the public prosecutor. The case where the sentence of imprisonment passed is to run consecutively then by virtue of subsection 3 of section 31 the aggregate of the consecutive sentences shall be deemed to be one sentence for the purpose of appeal by the convicted person. That is the principle under section 31-3. So when you file the appeal the principle under section 31-3 has to be borne in mind. What section 31-3 says is the aggregate of the consecutive sentences shall be deemed to be one sentence for the purpose of appeal. Therefore in that case 17 years 3 months should be the yardstick applied in which case it is more than 7 years. Hence it is section 374-2 CRPC which is applicable. I will read that section. Any person convicted on a trial by a session judge or an additional session judge or on a trial held by any other court here it is CJM in which a sentence of imprisonment for more than 7 years has been passed against him or against any other person convicted at the same trial may appeal to the high court. And subsection 374-3 applies only when 374-2 has no application. Here 374-2 applies. Therefore 374-3 does not apply. Therefore the appeal before the court session was incompetent as continued by the public prosecutor. This is my take on subsections 2 and 3 of section 31. You have to both the sessions will exhaust section 31 clauses 1, 2 and 3. Thank you. In case there is any doubt, listeners are free to ask. I am just checking it out on the YouTube. No. You experience in such an illustrated manner that people don't have any doubts. Whatever any doubt comes it comes on the, you have seen on the messages on the YouTube message comments. Yes. Thank you sir for sharing it.


Okay, next up is Gunard who is going to talk about our PGP key ring and what we can learn from it. Thank you very much. Well, first of all, I've been working on this information, well, more or less started doing it for fun, because well, as part of what we did in key ring maintainers, led me to start wondering how does our snapshot of reality look like. So this is not, don't take it as something seen to be improving the avian, or even you can even see this as something that was made by an outsider. Not that I am an outsider, but the view I'm taking here is, well, objectively looking at whatever information I can gather from the key ring and trying to explain some bits about it. The thing is, the work that started me going on this is what we did in DevCon 14, that's when we kicked off what became the migration to strictly greater than 24-bit, 2024-bit keys, because, well, there were security liability by then. And, well, I'll start showing this first with the graphs we used then. This is a graph that we showed two years ago, showing how it was taking so long for us to migrate away from short keys. You can see several, one of the most responsive people did the switch here at first, but then the trend was very slowing going down. We were very happy that we were almost at the point of crossing. In fact, I think we crossed during that month, but the trend showed we would take at least three, four, five more years to do the final changes, and, of course, that would become flatter and flatter over time. So, well, that's what prompted us to do an aggressive change. It was quite a lot of work for us. I mean, not that we didn't know it, but through less than half a year, we replaced over 250 keys. And we were happy with the result, I think, although we did have problems in the end, because, for example, close to one-quarter of the project lost access to, well, both uploading and voting rights, because they are expressed, well, through having a valid key, right? And, well, 18 months, no, yeah, 18 months later, 200 dds still have not transitions to a valid key, so they are effectively locked out of most of their project rights, right? This is how the key ring looks like. The devian developer uploading key ring. So, well, yeah, this slope was, well, very abrupt. And, of course, we have managed to gain back these bits that we had lost by then. But, well, this prompted me into looking at this same information in different ways. This is fun to get, but I wanted to understand a bit more what social interactions can I get from looking at the file we have. So, currently, I saw, well, not today, but while I was in the plane, we had 816 valid keys for devian developer uploading. And, well, I'm focusing on those, of course. I mean, because they're, like, representative, devian maintainers are a very different case, but I'm not going into them. I'm sorry because of time constraints. I have not digged into that one. And we don't hold maintainers as, like, a source of trust. So, it's a difference. And non-uploading, there are so few that I am sure that, I mean, I'm looking at them separately because we keep them in separate directories, but it would not strongly influence anything. I'm almost sure. Okay. So, I decided not to stop there. And they started trying to draw the dataset we have. So, well, what is the as strong set defined related to a key ring is the largest set of keys that from each of them, you can reach all the others. Yeah. There's, like, a looser definition that I'm not using. That's the reachable set. You have somebody who cannot reach back via a trust relationship, but can be reached is in a reachable set, but not in the strong set. The strong set is all connected. Like, you can trace the trust paths between all of them. And this is the, well, the first thing I measured some months ago is how much the proportion of the strong set vary regarding to the total number of keys. I was supposing that we would lose a lot of connectivity by doing the roll over to larger keys. And, of course, we had some interesting jitter here. We started here with the migration. But the lowest point we have, I mean, this starts at 70. The lowest we have was 82% reachability. The highest is 89. And we were, like, at 88 and reached 89 here. Of course, here was the lowest point ever. I'm going to explain why very shortly, but it was, in some way, expectable, right? I'm sorry for relaying IRC over here, but it was... Okay. So how did I graph the rest? Well, I used GraphVis. Why did I use GraphVis? Today, I realize it may not have been the greatest choice. GraphVis is a great tool for simpler diagrams, but it's not meant to track a set of keys that change over time. So what's here like this, it will be like that in the next one because each graph is unique. And I don't control, or at least I haven't dug enough to control the algorithm that positions things. And also, when dealing with large amounts of nodes and edges, it becomes just too slow. Yeah? In this computer, for example, this is a very low-end laptop. It takes about 10 seconds to generate each snapshot. And I'm generating about 300 snapshots when I'm doing it fully, okay? Of course, the first thing I need is to graph the key ring. It's beautiful. It's boring. It's useless. I mean, it's just a blob. Yeah, it has some spikes, but I asked a friend who works in psychology, sociology fields. What do you want me to do with it? It's useless because analyzing social graphs deals with small bits of it, small pieces. Yeah, here I have some, say, here you see some isolated, some islands, some people that are not connected, which are not in the strong set or things like that, but this doesn't tell me anything. But this is a recent photo for us, right? But the thing is, as I generated a graph for each tag, that means for each upload with each key ring push, I found some that were like this, right? Something very strange for me. This is from before, just before we started the transition. So the transition didn't yet affect, but you can see here it's something that's splitting in half. And well, it got me scratching my head. Yeah, what does this split mean? Why does it appear? Where does it come from? Why is it there? So I took several snapshots. Well, this is generally, I mean, the top row is more or less each year, 2010, late 2010, 12, 13, sorry, the months are in Spanish. And here you see how it was, well, it's hard to see maybe in this resolution. It was a blob, then by early 2012, you start seeing groups separating. And by 2014, it was very obvious. And this is when we started actually the immigration. So this group starts getting smaller and smaller. And by the end, when this is December, this is the last time we had the short kiss. What we effectively cut away was just a small portion. And by here, well, that group disappeared. So I started, well, trying to understand what that was. So I came up with a hypothesis that's something related to curing aging. The thing is we are a long running project and the GPG has been, well, PGP, which GPG is an implementation of open PGP. PGP has been a constant trait of the project for a very long time. Not for all the project history, but say since the late 90s at least. We don't have the history for the first years, but the social interactions that happened over 10 years ago may be getting lost or maybe falling away because those people, well, it's logical that are having new interests and may not remain connected, say for some few cases. So I tried to get the graphs colored. It took me a long time to get this straight because my scripts were so, so, so badly written that it took six minutes to generate each one of them. When or something like that, when I rewrote the script in a much simpler way, which are ugly and I don't want to show them, I will show them at the, I'm sure, but it took me like 100 times less. So I was very happy. So I made these next graphs with blue for less than one year, green one to two, yellow up to three, orange up to four and red over four year old and I'm graphing the edges only, the signatures. I'm ignoring self signatures and I'm ignoring the keys because here they are not of much value by themselves, right? Well, it doesn't look very nicely, it looks very different than my screen, but you can see that this was occurring before the immigration. So yes, this whole blob was a red thing. All were very old signatures over five year old and here we have a lively community. Today, this is a, well, in June, we have several old key, old signatures in our living key ring, but it's all full of different colors. It's all mixed. That means, I understand that, that means that maybe, well, my 4K key, I started using it in 2009 and many other people started by that year as well. So we got it connected and our signatures will remain in because, well, they are between two valid keys. So I did the same thing we had before and yes, the red blob, of course, the colors are relative to the moment I took the snapshot. So if this was, well, I don't have, I can see the dates here, but this was early 2010, the red signatures are before 2006, right? And it does follow this same pattern.  So this is more or less, this more or less coincides with this here and here. And this is, well, much more often during the 2014 where we see this split. So, well, yes, in the end what happens here is that there is a body of old signatures that weren't socially integrated with the rest of the group and as the rest of the group migrated away from their old keys, started becoming a separate group until, well, they were cut away. It seems to confirm what I initially thought. I haven't really, really checked each case of them, but well, it seems to be so. I know that, and we will talk about this, I mean, in the next session that some of us are going to be in that's like explaining bits of what the key signing is and how to do it. Signing a key doesn't mean I trust you as a person. It just means I trust that at a given point in time, the person I'm talking with and I have somehow identified holds control of a given key. It's an important measure of trust for us because we don't get to meet every day. Not everybody gets to meet at DevConf. Not everybody goes to every DevConf. So we do need this as a bit of accountability to real world threats. This is the only bit that links our electronic activity to a physical identity and well, I hope we don't need it. But in case we needed to find who did something, that's the only way we have. So how long should this trust last? I am starting to advocate here for expiring our signatures. When I sign your keys, I should do it in a way that the signature lasts for as long as I recognize your face. Of course, I don't know how long I will remember you, but I can sign, for example, I'm trying to start signing for three years and probably after some time I will start checking, well, of the people I already, I have on this list who I still remember who they are, who are not, and I can renew my trust on them without having to meet again. It's just as if I were following a transition statement but signed by myself, right? If you see it this way. So how would this look if we were to expire by default? We are not going to do this, but well, we have a curatorial process. Creation means, say, in a museum exhibit, an artist brings a whole lot of works, right? And the museum curator says, well, I want this one here, this one here, because I don't want. So we do more or less the same. That's what keyring maintainers do. From the whole available keys in the universe, we form what keyrings are meaningful to the bien. So what if we started expiring old signatures and didn't treat them as valid? We are not going to do this. I mean, we talk this and it's not like our policy and will not be, but it's an exercise I'm playing, right? How many people would fall off the strong or the reachable sets if we were to discard the old signatures? Or how much would the keyring change its shape? If we were talking six years ago and expired keys that were older than five-year-old, then I mean, this is the snapshot I showed you before and this is how it would look if we were discarding. And I'm sorry, well, we don't have a better resolution here. You can see there's noise around here because those are dots, those are dots that are no longer connected. To be honest, I didn't get the exact numbers. Here you have more dots because there are more disconnected people, but they are just smaller so we don't see them. One of the details of graph is that I didn't really control. But the thing is I did write down how many signatures are being expired. So here we have over 6,000 signatures that were no longer taken into account, right? And well, what I get from here is that the resulting sets are very similar to those sets, to what happens after we have to remove these keys that were smaller thus older, right? Again, I know I have to do a lot more numbers on this, but this is as far as I've got. So, well, I can later show whoever's interested a better resolution form of this. I intend to make this all available. Well, my talks are already in the annex, but the graphs are higher resolution than what I used for the PDF. So whoever's interested, please contact me and I intend to publish this all. Now, how can we ask GPG to sign with an expiry date? That's something that's not very common. I haven't seen this advocated. Microphone, yeah. Maybe you'll talk about it in a second so maybe never mind, but when I looked into these features I found there was no way for GPG to ignore the expired certifications and I wonder if you have found a way. To ignore them. And I haven't searched for it. You can filter from your...  But no, I haven't found a way to discard this information, right? So GPG has an option that's ask cert expire, right? And we can set it by hand when we call the GPG binary itself, or we can set it in our GPG.com. Just if we do remember that tools such as CAF usually have a second GPG configuration, we will go in the other session into a brief explanation of what CAF is and how does it work. Remember to do it from the tools you use to generate the signatures. Okay, this I went on a different path just to understand again how this goes on and there's a lot of work I have not yet finished and I intend to keep working on this direction, right? What's this about asymmetric signatures? Well, we were talking what other things should I look for. So asymmetric key signing, we usually meet in pairs and I check your identity, you check mine, we exchange fingerprints and we sign each other's key. But it has happened to me a couple of times in the past that I get a mail like this, right? Okay, my key was in the DEF CONF key signing party key ring, but in the end I didn't go to DEF CONF, so you didn't meet me, but you still signed my key.  Okay, so I looked for how many signatures do we have that are only in one direction. Of course, this does not mean that all of them are result of sloppy practices. Sometimes, well, I don't have a passport on me and I meet with somebody and well, I will sign their signature but their fingerprint, they don't have to sign mine because they didn't check my identity or whatever. We don't have to have a really matched group as long as we have a strong set that's enough, but I still did this, oh, it doesn't even show. There's a blob of red on top of this. So here I graphed again over time how many red lines mean signatures that are in one direction only and well, I don't have much more data than this single number. I can tell you it was around 26% and over time it has kept basically constant. I didn't even graph it like a single line, but I can tell you that well, it was 25.8% in 2010, 27.2% in 2012, 27.17% in 2014, now it's at 24.36% and well, it doesn't vary that much. It's in average 26.6% and well, that may just mean that it doesn't mean anything but that's one of the checks I'm doing. I want to play as well. I think I have here the further ideas. There are many other things I want to start doing with this. Again, this has nothing to do either with cryptography or with security or with Debian itself. I'm just taking a set of data that maps us all and I try to understand what else does it map. What can I understand from it? Which algorithms were used for signatures? Because well, that also can say, well, I want to discard all signatures done with Shawan or if we still have any with RC5, I doubt we do. How many islands do we or would we have where we have some change? This is an island. This is the definite proof that Debian is satanic. For a long time, we had this five-point island floating around. It was there for most of 2014 and well, it's gone. Now we absorbed it. How many islands are there? What's their shape? Or for example, do some further guesswork, right? What's the minimum degree of connectedness? For example, to migrate a key, to replace a key for any developer, we require the new key to be signed by two people so we can avoid impersonation, impersonation attacks. Two people should certify this key belongs to the person who previously held the other key. So what would be the minimum degree of connectedness to consider a key or a group as belonging to a strong set? Maybe we do have some inner boundaries. I don't know. I don't think so, but I'd like to check a bit first, right? Identifying main hubs. Say, I know that I am quite well connected. What happens if we extract my key? Say, I retire, so my key is no longer in the key ring. How much does the connectedness of the key ring suffer? How many people, how many hubs would we have to remove to create a divide or things like that? And well, whatever ideas we can come up with starting with this set, right? Again, I don't know how this, besides this idea, trying to push to expire our signatures, I'm not sure this is really contributing to Debian, but rather using Debian as a source of information. But well, I'm very happy you were here interested in what I have to say. As for this conference, well, this is a graph of the key signing party key ring we have. It doesn't say much. And again, well, projected on screen, the resolution doesn't give us many features. But say we have here some floating keys. Those are most important to get signed, most important to get connected with the rest of us. Who is, say, here away? This person is clearly in the reachable, but well, it's most probably in the reachable, in the strong set, right? Because I think you can reach here, but not back or the other way around. I'm not sure. I mean, many of you saw that from this map, I generated also a personalized one where each person, I'll open it, well, each of us. I think I don't have it here. Well, anyway, it's on my People Debian org thingy. And I mailed it so you can check how does the key ring look from your perspective, who is connected to you. You can check for the post in the DevConf discuss list. I sent it recently. And well, this is a point that Anibal requested me to do. I think it's important. Although here, we cannot really check this. I just show here how I got to this number. We're going to do, and I'm not going into details on this key signing party that we're doing right now, because it's the subject of the next session we will have. But from this URL, I got the list of participants to the key signing party. And if any of you have their lucky number, first, if you don't have the lucky number, that's very bad for you, because it's not a, I mean, we will not start at the same time. It's very important that before doing any key signing, you check this is the SHA255 sum of the... And check for your key. Of course, of course. Check that your key matches what's on the thingy, on the file, and check that this SHA sum matches the one on the document itself. And well, basically, that's it for what I have prepared. So yeah, please, we have some questions and we have some microphones. I fear the questions because I don't have answers. Will it make sense to re-sign signatures? I mean, every three years I will sign your signature. I think so, yeah. I think that if I sign your key now, but I don't see your face for the next three years, I will let that signature expire because I will not remember you probably. But if I keep seeing you, I will sign by myself at home looking who is expiring. I will see you and I will remember who you are. If I... Or we can meet again for the express purpose of key signing. So yeah, I think... I mean, re-signing people who you have already signed should be done. Very much like your proposal to set an expiry date on signatures so they lax if they don't get renewed. So I wonder if I should revoke all the signatures I have made and then issue new ones for people who are in that time and from now on issue time-limited ones. If lots of us follow that policy, that's going to cause quite a change in the graph. Do you think that's a sensible thing to do or are we going to get ourselves into trouble by breaking lots of those links very quickly? Well, the reality is it's very hard to know. I picked three years because I know my attention span is low. But that was the reason I did the... Let me see if I have this here. No. I know I wrote... No, but yeah, I reset this... No, I deleted it from here and it's only in my main work machine. I think from the runs I did, expiring over five-year-old keys, that it doesn't make that much of a difference. But of course, all of the red blob fell away. But those were... In the end, those were Mia candidates. So it's hard to know. I have to play more with the information and probably start using better tools to do it because I'm really, really doing it by hand and that doesn't scale. So you said at the beginning that about 200 people that lost their key haven't sent a new one. Do you think that means those people are missing in action and do you think they should have their accounts removed? Well, we started talking with some of the people in Mia team and they said, well, okay, last time we talked, they said, well, give us a list of people to start contacting. The thing is there are too many people to contact. I think many of them will be missing. Many of them will be willing to retire. Many of them are not. We know of some people who have been trying to get reconnected I would be willing to possibly make some concessions but it's hard to say. I say concessions and Jonathan starts looking at me different. For clarity in the meantime, just in case there's any doubt, those people who have been removed do not stop being Debian developers. Of course not doing removals at this stage will follow the normal MIA process first. Of course, now that you mentioned this quickly. You have a session five minutes. Five minutes ago. Yes, I don't know. Why wasn't I interrupted earlier? I don't know, so I'm interrupting you now, sorry. Okay, sorry. Let's go tomorrow. Thank you very much.