Hi, everyone. My name is Alara. I'm a senior at Montpelier High School, and I'm here with Hendricks Lex Owen and today we're here to remind you about the Montpelier fall festival Yeah, happening this Sunday October 1st on the State House lawn from 12 to 4 It's a fundraiser for the MRPS partners in education and this year We're really putting the fun in fundraiser with these amazing activities including a one-mile fun run Musical performances from local artists including the radians red clay tiny heart explosions slap happy jack and mask theater Lots of food trucks and a celebrity dunk tank. Does that get you excited for the fall festival? Yeah, yeah, so have you guys been before? Nope. No. Yep. Yep. Okay. Well From based on what I just said, what are you most excited for? Dunk tank just go ahead Um Probably excited for the singing and the dunk tank. Mm-hmm food truck singing. Yeah, everything. Um everything Food truck Dunk tank most of it So I'll see you guys there on sunday. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So we'll all see you there Hopefully on October 1st from 12 to 4 at the Montpelier State House lawn for the fall festival. Yay


All right, my name is Manu, I work for Meta, and I work on the CI. I'm doing a live demo, I'm a bit of a chicken, so, you know, the demo got in stuff.  This is a live demo on how to use the BPFCI. You can, as you send a patch to the mailing list, the patch has been tested on the CI. But you can also actually bypass the mailing list and try your patches directly on the CI. So you can iterate, and then it starts getting feedback once it works. So, the link at the bottom, tinyurl.com, BPFCI just test, sends you to the documentation within the BPF documentation, how to do that. The TLDR is you need to clone the kernel dash patches slash BPF repo that we have on GitHub.  You get an updated version of the BPF next underscore base branch. You create your own local branch. You make a great change, like adding a new line to the rhythm, which obviously needs to be tested. Great. Commit message, SFMM 2023, I got the date right, CI test run, push that to your GitHub branch, and then, typically, GitHub will give you a link to create a pull request, which, when everything works, is able to merge like that. And as you click on create pull request, magic happened. Now you wait a bit, and there it's been picked up by the GitHub CI. And from there, you wait some time for build and self-test and stuff to happen. And eventually, you get the result directly onto your PR. And I guess that's pretty much about it, how to run the CI yourself. Do you have any questions? Good point. Daniel wrote automation to delete your patch if you don't touch it for a week or something like that. So you don't have to care much about it. And this is not going to emerge anywhere. It's just like being tested, I guess, here. So first, we're going to get all the builds. These takes somewhere in the 80-ish minutes on the x86 and ARM architectures. A390x is a bit slower to run. It takes about 10-ish minutes. Once everything is done here, and it passes the build, and it's going to start running the test, and that can take between 10-ish minutes and on S390x close to an hour at the moment for some test. And what is the rate limits? The rate limits. We have a limited amount of workers that do run the test. So essentially, you're going to be limited by that. Your GitHub user is going to be limited in the first place also. I guess this is for you to test, not for you to build a bot that hammers it. Typically, you need to be approved to be able to run the test first. GitHub provides some switches. One is either you need to be approved. You need to be, to have committed first. I believe in some ways it reads what is in the kernel tree and finds that you may have contributed to the repo. It didn't seem to work all the time. And there is another way which is essentially accept anybody that had the GitHub account for some amount of time, which kind of get rid of some bots. Do you know if I can filter? For example, I know that I care about X390x, and I don't care about X86. So I don't waste any sources. Essentially, what you want to do, you want to, as part of your commit, comment out. Well, just leave that line here. And actually, I would recommend the resources we have. The X390x are the most constrained. So if you don't really want to test on everything yet and you just want to get quick signal, use on more X86, pretty much limit it. And you're going to wait less time too. And then once you're happy, you can put everything. This is super useful, because at some point, I was trying to run this GitHub actions, something, something that you can run those locally. It didn't work for me. Yeah, the act stuff. No, yeah. That's great. I tried to. Yeah. I wish it worked better, because it would help in iterating faster. But yeah. So yeah, definitely try to avoid X390x if you just send your first test. And once you're kind of happy, then put it back in to get full results. But this is the most constrained resource we have at the moment. So well, I guess, for that, we just have to go somewhere here. So once upon a time, so I guess, yeah, good point. We can get it from here. Once everything has run, so I mentioned the build already on, and then you got all the tests. At the workflow level, you got a quick summary of what potentially failed. So you get it here. But let's say if you go and on a specific test, this is, oh, now it makes sense. I was avoiding, we don't see the test failure. So here, you see that. Essentially, the NetCounts, NetCNT test failed. And if you expand it, then you get the actual output from the error. Back in the days, it used to be long and divvier to get that information back within all the logs. But yeah, so you get directly access to the information of what test failed. There is some tricks I could try to document somewhere where you can. I'm not sure how that works if you're not a member of the repo itself, but you could get the artifact that we use to build the VM and kind of rerun the VM locally if you want. So you don't have to go through all the iteration. But I guess just getting to use this here in the first place is a good start. That's really cool. Are you using your own runners? Yes. It makes a big difference to run the runners on bare metal when you run QMU, because we can use KVM. So yeah, historically, we used to use self-hosted runners that were still AWD VMs. We moved to using bare metal machine where we put a bunch of runners. They have many more cores when they want to combine and stuff. I'm trying to work with Ilya and the S390X to improve that for them. We have got some performance issues there. Hopefully, we get to shrink that number. But yeah. Yeah, we've been struggling running RCI on ARM. So yeah, because GitHub doesn't have ARM machine, so it's tricky. From my empirical test, it was faster to run QMU for ARM on x86 than on ARM without KVM. So if you do full virtualization, it was faster to run it on an x86 machine. On x86 with KVM, right? Well, it doesn't make you don't have KVM because you're a foreign architecture. But let's say I guess the emulation code is more optimized on x86 than it is on... I didn't go deep into the width, but that's my guess. You have to be a little careful with that because QMU does not scale at all for full system emulation past maybe four cores. So I don't know how many we're using, but uh... Four. Okay. At most. Yes. Yeah, I think it's not a big problem here in our use case. But yeah. Okay, yeah, I'm just like, if we ever do want to have a larger cluster of ARM hosts, it might be better to run on the other case. So, I mean... Or if we want to run more in parallel and whatnot. Like RCR, I see you torture or whatever, may require more CQT. Yeah, RCR torture, or even just test progs with more parallelism. Yeah, well, I think we want to be, maybe we don't gain as much as we have at the moment. So let's say it would be good enough like that. Maybe it's not like a requirement at least. But good to have in mind, I guess, for later. Manu, do you know if people will see logs, actually, if they don't give access? Yes, we tested that last time. So you need to be logged in GitHub. If you're not, you just see the summary, I guess. I think you essentially see this kind of view. We can't expend that. But if you're logged in, they will see the whole log, right? Yeah, what I'm not sure is about, it's the artifacts, what I mentioned earlier on. I'm not sure you can download them if you're not a member of the people. And also, guys, because you need to be approved to execute the test, this is the reason why we wanted a few people to try so we can approve you in bulk. Yeah, I opened the restriction. So if you've not a brand new GitHub user, I think you should be fine. You tell me. The artifacts, I believe, are here, yes. If you go in the summary page, so here you've got all the outputs of, I mean, the GWI is kind of created for a rather generic use case and cattle to many people. So, but yeah, here you've got the artifacts, which I can download. I didn't create a separate account to see if I could access it. But essentially here, what you've got are the self-test and the kernel that have been compiled. You, I could document that, but from the test script, you can see where the image has been downloaded from and then you can create here. You can essentially, okay, cool. Do those artifacts expire somehow? Yes, I think 90 days is set in the UI. I didn't check. Even the logs eventually expire. I think after some time, like they just, you see the result, what you see on the left pane, but you don't see the details from that page, for instance. You don't see that anymore. All right, tomorrow I will be going into a bit more detail about what has been going through the CI for the last year. But yeah, so you can play. We want you to make a live demo, but it took about 10 minutes to clone the repo. So it's easier to just for that. All right. Perfect. Thank you so much for the demo. Thanks a lot.


Hello everyone, I'm Quentin working at Neutronome. I've been working on EBPF over the last three years, maybe now. So I'm afraid this is yet another presentation about BPF. So the angle of this presentation would be to focus on mechanisms on Linux for filtering packets from a general point of view for mostly simple filters like I have ACS. I just want to drop some particular flows from my incoming traffic. So what do I have on Linux to just do that? So the first part is a short refresher about the mechanism we have for this. And then to see what the impact of EBPF, which was added maybe more recently that the mechanism is on this filtering mechanism. And also I would like to speak about a certain number of leads for convergence between these different models. Like how can we maybe use BPF to make things easier with other filtering mechanisms? So what do we have here to try and benefit from the best of each solution? So first thing is what do we have on Linux if I want to filter my packets? So say I want to drop HTTP packets. First thing that comes to mind usually is IP tables and F tables, which is used for implementing a firewall. On Linux, the firewall itself is net filtering the kernel and you have a variety of frontends from the user space. So that would be IP tables for IPv4 rules. You have the equivalent for Ethernet frames, for ARP frames. You have contract 2, which is used for maintaining stateful connections. But mostly I'm interested in very simple things here. So that would be IP tables to inject some simple rules into the kernel and do my filtering here. So that's the first solution. Actually, we have other ones too. So we have, for example, TC, which is a framework for traffic control on Linux that you would manage with the TC tool from IP route 2. So TC works by implementing some queuing disciplines, which are queued disks, possibly working with classes which acts like queues, kind of. So you have a variety of filters used to dispatch packets into different classes attached to your queue disk. And this would be mostly for egress traffic usually, so that you can have scheduling and traffic shaping and this kind of processing for the packets leaving the machine. But you can also apply filters to the incoming traffic. So I can also draw flows at the TC level too. So I have a variety of filters available. I have, for example, basic filters. We are using some syntax called extended match. I have flow, flow, which is different, U32. Now I also have BPA filters at this level, but we'll come back on that later. We have some specific filters, some of which only applying to egress traffic. So I won't go into the details of each syntax of filters. But the thing is that we can also filter traffic at this level drop flows. So for some use case, do the same thing as IP tables. Another thing that I have available in Linux is EaseTool to set up things on the hardware directly. So there is a feature called receive network flow classification, which is actually some kind of hardware filters for the NICs that support this feature. I can directly set up some filters on the NICs themselves. So that's yet another thing that I can do. It's more simple maybe than a net filter or TC because NICs just have basic facilities at this level usually to search for a given pattern at a fixed offset and see if your packet matches or not and drop it or dispatch it to a queue. There are several things that we can do. Last mechanism on my list is not exactly inside the kernel. It's not exactly about dropping flows either, but it's yet some kind of tool that has its own syntax to filter packets. So that would be the pick up filters used for example for TCP DOM. So typically with TCP DOM you would take a pick up expression and compile that into BPF code as in the legacy BPF code, the old version before BPF. And you would attach this program to your socket in the kernel and then each packet would be processed by this program and filtered out. And eventually when you dump packets with TCP DOM you only get the ones that you're interested in because of this BPF and pick up filters capabilities. So that's yet another thing you can do to filter packets. So with TCP DOM for example you can see the BPF program produced by your expression with dash D option. So we have IP tables, we have TCP, we have ETH tool that can be used for hardware filters. So this is just a recap of the different filtering hooks that we have at this time in the kernel. So hardware at the lower level, old BPF programs just for the sockets. And in the middle in the kernel stack we have TCP and ETH filter ingress or egress hooks. Just an example of use case for each of these different tools. So this is each time for dropping incoming HTTP packets. Well actually it's not really the case for TCP DOM, that's more about dumping only HTTP packets. The point here is to show that we have several tools with some overlap at least for simple filtering. And each of the tools obviously has its own syntax, its own way of describing the rules. So that can be a problem if you have some rules for one of the systems that you would like to put to something else. Maybe because you want to change hook, you want to do something else beside. So maybe we can find ways to improve things. I will show you about that later. So you also have other things behind the one I presented. So that's because if you have things beside the Linux kernel, so you would have virtual switches. Some of them also working inside the kernel for one part. So for example with OpenVswitch you can have the kernel data path. You can have things besides the kernel like the PDK, a T-Flow is used for matching packets. You can use P4 to implement some virtual switches and compile them into something dedicated to a specific target. So there are a lot of other solutions too. So we have really a lot of things for filtering packets. We also have ABPF of course since a few years now. So what is BPF? So probably by now you know the song more or less. So I won't do a detailed introduction that's generic efficient in kernel virtual machines. So there is the verifier to make sure that programs ejected from user space are safe. You can attach it to a variety of hooks in the kernel. So in particular you have sockets here, TC for traffic control, XDP at the network driver level. So again that's used for processing packets, filtering them possibly. It has a couple of features that are interesting in comparison with the previous mechanism. Maps to keep states or statistics or whatever you want in the kernel. You have tail calls to call different programs, some helper functions that you can call from the kernel. And that is the idea. So BPF we have several hooks. We have XDP here at the lower level nearly when drivers post XDP. Otherwise you have generic XDP that Jesper was talking about this morning in the questions. We have DC hooks. So this one is different that's legacy version but we also have ABPF on sockets now. For hardware that supports it you even have BPF, TC or XDP afloat. So that's only for Neutronome spandex at the time. Although to be fair I think that some other nicks can support things like some afloat for TC rules and these kind of things. So you could also have some of the ones in the hardware. The point is with BPF in general we get more speed than with the other mechanism. There are several reasons for that. We have this just-in-time compiler that turns BPF programs into native instructions. You have very low level hooks such as XDP. You also have possibilities of affluting to the hardware so you get something that's really fast. It's a language to have to implement programs in the kernel so you also get a lot of flexibility about what you can do, the features you have and that gives you a lot of possibilities really. Especially in terms of filtering you can filter pretty much everything you want. So maybe with some issues with loops at this time but that should be solved hopefully in the future. So BPF is power of course but you knew that already. Also BPF comes with a number of maybe not drawbacks but if you are a system administrator trying to switch to BPF you start by getting a lot of headaches and spend long nights rewriting your existing rules. BPF is just as said again by Jesper. It's not a product by itself, it's a building block so you have to build with it and you have to spend time creating your programs and optimizing them maybe so you spend a lot of time on it at the beginning trying to understand how things work and setting other things. Maybe that's something that we could try to improve somewhere, try to find some other ways to generate programs or to use programs in a way we wouldn't have to start everything from scratch again each time we need a new program. So keep also in mind that BPF that's something that's safe contained that's really a virtual machine inside the kernel that's well defined we have a reference implementation in the kernel so that's something that holds together that really makes a possible good intermediate representation for things like filtering packets. So how could we maybe leverage this into finding convergence between different models for filtering. So the first one I want to present here it's not this slide yet sorry. The first thing I want to tell about that is why should we try to unify things. Well that's pretty much what I just said it's if I already have my set of IP tables rules I want to switch to BPF. It's not trivial to do how can I find a way to maybe turn this set of rules into BPF or something like this. So I want to transparently reuse the existing set of rules I have that's one thing. I want also to be able with one set of rules to benefit from the best of the solutions I have. So if I have IP table rules I'm using IP tables and net filter but maybe net filters are not the fastest available solution. So I would like to switch to BPF because I've heard that XDP is so much faster than BPF so how do I do that. And on the developer side it's also interesting because adding some intermediate representation can hide the details of the different mechanisms that are used to inject rules into the kernel. And so you would just have to send one type of intermediate representation to the back end to the driver. And you would possibly also have a better and coupling of the front ends to translate rules and the back ends to offload rules. So that's for example what's used in this first work that's from Pablo Nerai Uso. This is a RFC on NetDev at the moment. It doesn't use BPF this one. That's mostly about trying to make things converge like TC rules in yellow here, net filter rules, hardware filter rules. The idea of the proposal is to turn all of this into an intermediate representation called flow rules. So that's not a language in particular that's more a set of structures inside the kernel that could be used to represent filters in general. And that could be used for offloads after that. So instead of sending all those different rules in different formats to the driver you would have just one representation in this IR to send to the hardware. And the hardware would to send to the driver and the driver would turn that into instructions for the hardware. So that would hopefully make things easier for hardware developers, for driver developers. So that's the motivation. Just have one thing to push down and avoid having details about TC internals here at this level for the driver parts. So that adding new features to TC is hidden from the driver and gets easier to do. Another solution that tends to make things converge would be BP filter which was at the center of many discussions recently on the kernel mailing list. So that's the way to turn your IP tables rules into BP programs but that's directly inside the kernel. So actually it's just the backend part that would change and you would keep IP tables left unchanged so you would still use IP tables to inject your rules into the kernel. And then instead of having the net filter backend in the kernel you would use BP filter which would translate these rules into an BPF program that would be attached in the kernel. So from the user point of view it doesn't change much, it changes in terms of performance but you would keep IP tables rules here sent to the net filter subsystem that communicates with the specific BP filter.co module. Which is a special kind of module that have a component launched in user space. So you would have actually rule translation in user space that's BP filter, umh, I think that's user module helper or something like this. Then you get the rules back as a BPF filter in the kernel and then you attach this. So everything you get, you get the best part from both worlds here. You get your IP tables rules that you already have and BPF programs, performance coming with that and so on. And the third thing I want to mention is some work that I'm doing right now at NatureNorms so that would be a library that we could live here. It's for kernel filtering rules. The idea is to do something similar somewhat to BP filter but in user space so that would be taking different formats of rules.  I would like to be able to produce C programs so instead of doing all the work down to sending the programs directly to the kernel which would be supported too. We would also be able to dump a C program so that administrators could hack the programs themselves and modify them. So the idea is to present to someone who is not really familiar with BPF. Here you have your rules, use this library to the functions in this library to turn these rules into this set of rules into a BPF program and then do whatever you want with it. Modify it possibly or just inject it right now in the kernel and hopefully everything works. So that's some work ongoing. I was hoping initially to have it published on GitHub for the first time but sadly I didn't have time to finish it. So it's not available yet. That's something that I hope to be able to publish in the coming weeks or months maybe. And that's it for the presentation. So just to wrap up, we have different things on kernel for filtering packets. BPF is one of them. It's both really perfect and really flexible so it can be used maybe as an intermediate representation for filtering packets. Or maybe we can use some other representations. But anyway, there are a number of convergence models that are trying to image because we want to reuse what exists already in terms of rules because we want to simplify things for development. We have a number of other existing leads for the future in terms of convergence. So before it's something that can be used as an abstraction model maybe for different switching filtering models. You can use that to compile programs into BPF so that's really interesting to see also this kind of relationship. You have BPF used in other places as well. You have BPF data path in OVS which is in development at the moment. And BPF implementation inside DPDK too. So that's interesting to see again all those things getting unified and working together. There was a presentation by a colleague of mine about BPF as a heterogeneous processing ABI at the Linux Plumbers conference. So that's about using BPF for offloading on different drivers and compiling for different architectures and so on. And the last one that I wanted to mention is BPF Trace also using a kind of domain specific language for producing BPF programs. So that's interesting again to see how we can simplify things for having these other things converging together. So thank you. I'm afraid I don't have time for questions. I spoke too much. So if you have questions just come and talk to me. No problem. Thank you.


My name's Regan. I worked for Anthony J. Lyon detective bureau. They call me the Lyon's Eye Jeff Regan investigator starring Paul Dubov as Regan with Frank Nelson as Anthony J. Lyon We'll stand by for mystery and suspense and adventure in tonight's story titled a cure for insomnia An ad in the papers. That's what started this one off There were three dead and one to go by the time we got to the last half of the last inning of it And it looked like the pitcher that was tossing the strikeouts was shooting for my boss Anthony J. Lyon It got rolling the kind of day you don't see much around LA Storm breaking about 10 in the morning when I got down to the Lyon detective bureau office My boy be careful where you stand. What's the matter Lyon dropping olives? Oh, don't be funny Your feet are muddy and we can't afford to have the carpet cleaned not the way business is going these days Yeah, well, okay, Lyon mind if I sit down my overcoats wet Well, then take it off first who Regan our books don't balance for the month of April Wait a minute. Leave your coat on and don't sit out. So we got a new client. Yes, Jeffrey I was sitting here at my desk 20 minutes ago trying to balance our books and the phone rang and it was a new client Exactly Jeffrey who a man named Paulson he lives in Hollywood in the hills above Hollywood and Vine on Chapman Boulevard 7707 and a half and you better get out there right away. Somebody's life in danger. Maybe mm-hmm life in danger Oh, no, no the victims already dead. Mrs. Paulson the Paulson's wife Murdered Paulson says he wants us to prove it Paulson wants us to prove his wife was murdered. Yes You see Mrs. Paulson died seven or eight days ago the police say she committed suicide But mr. Paulson would be so much happier if it would turn out that she were murdered Jeffrey nice fella He isn't he my boy. He wants to pay us a hundred dollars. Not what I meant Look Lyon of Mrs. Paulson died seven or eight days ago. What's so urgent about my getting out there this morning? You're the one hundred dollars Jeffrey. Oh I get it as I explained to you my boy try as I might scheme as I would our April books Refuse to balance now. I've been thinking that perhaps one little fee carried backwards if from the first week of May Okay, Fatso set your calendar back to standard time. I'll go out and talk to Paulson. I Went through bus or rain eating off hillside frontage sluicing California down blooded drains that couldn't keep up I turned right at Sunset in Niagara went up two blocks forded Hollywood Boulevard Chapman Boulevard was half a dozen blocks of twisted hill lip bleary tile-roofed stucco houses 7707 and a half where Paulson lived was the rear third of a triplex.  Come in. I'm Paulson. Come in Now just sit down mr. Regan. I'll tell you everything all about a toilet half sure sure just let me get out of my overcoat I'll help you. Thanks. Thanks. I got it Ah You seem pretty upset Paulson. Yes.  Oh, no, no, no not at all. You'd better give me the rundown Paulson. Yes Yes, that would be best Well My wife's name was Linda Linda Paulson. We'd been married seven years, and we were very much in love with each other Seven nights ago quietly in her twin bed the other bed where she slept in our bedroom that room there Mr. Regan go on Linda died in the night Sometime in the night you woke up in the morning and found her dead. Yes, and mr. Regan it Was as attained that Linda had died of poison what the cops have to say about it.  I don't know quite what But the police were convinced that Linda had definitely taken that poison herself Well, then that about settles it doesn't it Paulson except For Linda's motive motive that's the term used in these murders, isn't it? Well Linda had no reason to want to die No motive for killing herself. You seem sure of that I I was I was sure of it But but now I've begun to doubt and that's why I want help Don't you see if Linda wasn't murdered if it was suicide as the police seem so sure Then that means that my wife wanted to die That means that our our life together when when I thought we were very happy Wasn't what it seemed to be at all. I see what you mean And that's why you want me to prove it was murder. Yes, mr. Regan. It makes sense All right, Paulson heat up some coffee, huh? We'll get to work Paulson brewed coffee like I'd hoped it steadied them down He gave me what he could it wasn't much He and his wife were ordinary middle-bracket people. No love triangles Paulson said Mrs. Paulson hadn't had any money of her own her life hadn't been insured Paulson said she'd been perfectly normal no depression nothing queer right up to her death I took down the names and addresses of some of the friends and relatives told Paulson I want to check around Then I went downtown a homicide dropped in on lieutenant Sanducci It's about a woman named Linda Paulson Sanducci The woman that killed herself a week or so ago look Sanducci the husband's retained me to prove she didn't kill herself He thinks she was murdered. Thanks, Regan Listen, have you seen the house where it happened came from there just now Then narrow bottleneck passage back to it between two front houses. Yeah, the night it happened It was hot neighbors at the chairs out at the head of the passage Nobody could get in or out without being seen maybe Paulson killed her himself thought of that We're not amateurs here at the department Regan Paulson was out at a meeting Mrs. Paulson went to bed at 10 30 Neighbors saw the lights go out in the house neighbors see Paulson come home at 25 after 11 Went to bed in the dark his wife with a poor sleeper. He didn't want to disturb her We haven't told him this Regan, but she was dead then you got the time of the death from the reaction of the poison Plus the state of the cadaver Figuring the two together she took the poison when she went to bed at 10 30 died 10 minutes later and There's a clincher Regan go on the pill box. Mrs. Paulson kept in a purse Kind of unusual it had a key that she kept on a chain around her neck That's where it was when you saw the body. Yes, and the pill box in the purse was locked That's right, Regan no tampering with the lock. Mrs. Paulson's fingerprints on the box and nobody else's and we know She was alone in the house when she took the poison Now look Regan you talked to her husband. He told you she had no motive to kill herself same as she told us That's right Well, did he give you the full rundown Regan about how they had no enemies the woman had no money no insurance Nice decent ordinary people Regan not the kind to be mixed up in crime or rackets. He gave me that Maybe it suggested something to you sure Sanduchi sure it did if Paulson's story checks There won't be any motive for Mrs. Paulson's having killed herself and there won't be motive for anybody else having killed her either That's right Regan. Oh and Regan Paulson's story checks It checked I Cruised through the rain visited people who knew the Paulson's Everybody said the same thing no reason no motive for murder or suicide Only there had to be a reason I'd start with that The newspaper morgue downtown. I got the beginning of something I remember the Paulson thing you know my reputation Regan Morgan the guy who never forgets a thing sure sure I know Morgan's wife come to you. Yeah, well, I could give it to you verbatim Don't have to look it up in the files.  You said a suicide. Well, I made a name was Linda Cales Say wait a minute got something maybe just let me check him in the Oregon papers We keep them to we keep papers from every place Yeah, Portland, Oregonian. Yeah, it was Portland. All right, the Oregonian March Yeah, March 18th and the sixth page and I think it was the fifth column No, no, no, no here it is sixth page fourth column. I slipped up Regan. Anyway, here it is. Cance. Let's see that Yeah, sure look Kale's brother Regan. Yeah, he died suddenly in bed March 17th survived by three sisters all residing in Los Angeles, California And here it is Regan thing. I remembered one of those sisters. Yeah. Yeah, Linda Kale's Paulson I phoned the lion Told him to get through to Sanducci and homicide try to get Sanducci to have the Portland police Exhumed the body of the dead brother perform an autopsy for possible evidence of poison Me I got on the track of the surviving sisters around LA One was married her home phone didn't answer But five or six phone calls got me a line on the other sister. She was unmarried Her name was Jane Kale's she worked at a resort up in San Gabriel Canyon about a two-hour drive from LA I went up there Oh You're right, I don't sometimes we get it this late in the year we're 5,000 feet up We'll sit down to the counter and have something hot. Okay coffee. I'm a cashier But while the cowgirls on arrest you're the cashier, huh? Yeah, that's right. I'm looking for you. You're Jane Kale's Yeah, yeah, well, so what? Here's your coffee. My name's Regan. I'm a private detective. Thanks Well, what do you want with me? I ain't done nothing. I'm on my own business. Take it easy I'm edgy. I don't get my sleep Haven't ever slept good it runs in the family But now that my sister Linda's gone and poisoned herself why I'm here her husband doesn't think she did poison herself What do you think? I'll tell you what I think I Think it's a sin I've been lying awake nights lying awake asking myself. How could Linda've done a thing like that?  Linda maybe your brother up in Oregon too. Oh, that's impossible. There wouldn't be any reason There wouldn't be any reason money someplace in the family. Maybe Jane. Oh, no, no, we don't have any money Not for 20 years 20 years What dad had money before the crash, but he lost it got cleaned out in 29. He died four years later Okay, okay, Jane And there's just you and your married sister down in LA left in the family now. Yes Caroline That's my other sister Caroline Cale's Martz. She married Charlie Martz 11 years ago Yeah, mr. Regan Caroline and our are the only ones left Back down in LA about 6 30 I was lucky I got Caroline on the phone She and her husband were going out to dinner, but she said they'd be back by 10 About a quarter past and I went over by half past. We had the brush cleared away and we're down to business Can't believe it Linda. Oh, pardon me, mr. Regan sure Martz Just can't believe it Linda would have killed herself Mrs. Martz. Yes Suicides usually prompted by love trouble or ill health. This certainly wasn't any love trouble Linda and her husband were very happy and health Well, of course Linda would sometimes say that yes, Mrs. Martz Well, only that if she couldn't rest She couldn't get more sleep, you know She she'd kill herself But all of us in our family sleep very poorly and I'm sure that every one of us must have said that is one Can you come here a minute of the phone is for you excuse me? Yes, of course The phones hung up Martz. Oh, yes. Yes, I Didn't want Carolina here. What's up? Mr. Regan. This thing is beginning to take on a pattern a Pattern that frightens me for my wife. That was San Gabriel Canyon on the phone Yes, it was that the night cashier at the resort took sick this evening They went to get my wife's sister Jane to fill in it had snald and then stopped There were no tracks to Jane's cabin, but her own She was alone wait a minute You're gonna tell me they found her dead Suicide mr. Regan she'd taken poison The way this case went it looked like the Kale's clan had developed quite a taste for poison Linda Kale's pulse and died of it. Then there was a brother dead up in Oregon My money had it. They'd find he died of poison too if they dug him up and took a look and then there was a third Kale's Jane dead to San Gabriel Canyon poison I Told Charlie March to keep a close eye on the last Kale's left alive his wife Then I had it for San Gabriel Canyon Snowplow was working on the road the last mile up had to wait a while So I phoned the lion in LA at home. It was midnight You don't tell me Fatso Why are you out hiding from somebody Okay, skip it. Here's what I want you to do check the airline train and bus offices They're open all night Find out if any of the Kale's family or in-laws had a reservation up to Portland Oregon any time just before the brother died up there Phone me if you get anything. I'll be at Clemens Mountain Resort San Gabriel Canyon Maybe an hour or two get going and good luck The snow plow finished clearing the road and I went on up San Gabriel Canyon There was one light left on in the resort cafe sitting under it Lieutenant Sanducci Up here who sent you up Sanducci you did Reagan you on the line I checked with the Portland police. They were fast up there. So the brother was poisoned. He was poisoned Regan and This girl up here and the first sister Linda Paulson and Now the third sister sir. Give me that again Caroline March down in Los Angeles Waiting for the phone now for a port under condition. I told her husband to keep an eye on her. He said he did Regan There's nearly hysterical over his sister's death up here One of the bathroom crying have sick Well in a few minutes March her to cry out he ran in and she was unconscious on the floor Call an ambulance and they rushed to the receiving hospital and she'd been poisoned like the others Regan Now Regan this one up here. This Jane Kale's every bit of evidence points to suicide There was fresh snow only hurt tracks led to the cabin two or three extra poison capsules and a medicine chain Kale's didn't commit suicide. You know that Regan. I talked to her this afternoon. She hated suicide couldn't understand How anybody could do such a thing, but if it's murder Regan, why what mode? Yeah, sure and how how does the killer pull it off? Report I miss girl and March condition. Excuse me a second sure Hello Sanducci, huh? Oh Just a minute No, it's for you Regan must be the lion. Maybe he's got something for us. I had him working on a lead Hello, lion. This is Regan Morgan who never forgets a thing at the newspaper. Oh, hi Morgan. I phoned Anthony lion. He told me how to reach you. Yeah, what's on your mind? You did Morgan Go on Morgan we don't file the valley times, but I remember it verbatim. You see it's like they say yeah Morgan never forgets a thing. What was it in the valley times about Kale? Well, it was an ad Regan the lower left hand corner in the seventh page two columns wide I'd say about three column inches three line bold face head with a wide margin the last line of type didn't print quite Okay, Morgan. What did it say? Well Bank of the United States, North Hollywood, California, and there was some stuff about the bank What did it say? Oh, you know? Capitalization when it was found you want that you can skip that part. What did it say about Kale's? Bertram Kale's yeah. Oh well Bertram Kale's has seventy three thousand dollars in the Bank of the United States in North Hollywood But there's been no activity in the account for 20 years. Yeah If Kale's is some relation don't show up to claim the dough either bank is going to turn it over to the treasurer of the state of California The regular legal process, you know the ad is the formal notification. Thanks a lot Morgan You've just given me the motive for three murders The thing begins to make sense now Regan dollar cents Bertram Kale's would be the father of the tribe He was in the box once got cleaned out in the crash Jane Kale's told me that this afternoon Only he must have stashed away one bank account 73,000 smacks. He didn't tell anybody about Wasn't the one of the investigators to find it if you failed in business about that time Probably planned to use the dough a few years later after the squeeze was off Only he died four years after the crash Jane Kale's told me that too It adds up Regan. It adds up to mass murder All the Kale's children had equal claims to their dead father's dough So somebody started knocking off the children systematically one by one object to get all the 73,000 That's the why of it. All right That won't be a lift is the how And the who Maybe that'll be the lion now if the lead he's working on pans out. We may have our who Hello, lion Yes, that's right This is Georgia street receiving hospital calling I signal sanducci and he took the booth I went back to the counter watch sanducci through the glass What he got over the phone. He didn't like he came busting out of the booth Regan wait till you hear this. What's up sanducci? What's up? I'll tell you what's up Caroline martz recovered they pumped out her stomach her stomach contained the same poison They killed her two sisters and her brother that figures sure it figures But caroline kills martz got to the hospital in time.  She was the last surviving kills child The way it is now she gets a 73 thousand dollars But she's got a nice heart freaking if we suggest she poisoned her brother and sister Yeah, yeah, she got poisoned too. Yeah, it could be that Well, we better get down to town and ask caroline some questions That's what I've been trying to tell you when she turned out to be all right Regan those knit which I left in charge down there released her she disappeared Sanducci and I drove back to LA He used the siren on his police car and I stuck right behind in his windstream We got back down to town after 4 a.m Nobody home at the mart's house We found only one thing on caroline kale's martz dressing table a black mask The silk covered padded black mask no eye holes The kind people use to keep out the light when they're trying to sleep About six in the morning I left sanducci pulled into a drive-in for coffee and Rain had stopped I kept thinking of that black mask on caroline kale's martz dressing table sleeping mask And something that had run through the whole case like a thread of music Caroline had said it jane kale's had said it it had been set of linda the first sister to die We don't sleep well it runs in the family. We don't sleep well At seven I phoned the lion no answer So I began checking the airline railway and bus offices myself The fourth time around I got the brass ring Paulson had bought transportation or a gun a week before the brother's death in portland I wanted to talk to him bad But uh, but mr. Regan I afraid I'm hardly awake just sit and listen Paulson when I've got the sail wake you up I think I can guess how the members of your wife's family were poisoned you can mr. Regan There's plenty of evidence. They took the poison themselves. Yes. Yes, and they weren't trying to commit suicide when they did it I hope that's true in the case of my wife. It is because there's a way it makes sense Murder sense the victims took poison thinking they were taking something else Your wife made quite a career of pill taking didn't she Paulson? Well, well, yes Just her nerves of course maybe overstrained by lack of sleep the kale's family insomnia. Yes. Yes. That was it mr. Regan She had a pill box with a lock kept the key to it on a chain around her neck Somebody close to her might have been able to get hold of that key unlock the pill box substitute poison pills for the pills already in the box I see I see that must be how it happened and and with jane and with caroline and your brother law up in portland oregon He was poisoned too. That's right Paulson You made a trip up to oregon just before he died. That's right with my wife Sort of second honeymoon mr. Regan Paulson Maybe you can guess what i'm thinking I mean mr.  Yes, that's true and you were there in portland. Oh, no No, I I didn't go to portland. What I I didn't go well. I meant to go you went to oregon Yes, linda and I crater lake the oregon caves and then we were going to portland The whole family was to meet there for my brother in law's 50th birthday Well, if the oregon caves I had bad news for my business and I had to come back here Then who was at portland paulson? Well, the the rest of the family including caroline and charlie martz. Yes. Yes, of course Answer it paulson. Yes. All right caroline Hello, mrs. Martz Mr. Regan Had no idea you'd be here I guess it's just as well Mr. Regan, do you know the terrible thing that's happened that your husband gave you poison? Then you do know in your sleeping pills, I guess Charlie began saying he couldn't sleep baked insomnia then asked to borrow your sleeping pills Fill the capsules with poison then return them. He knew you take them We all all of us the whole family suffers from insomnia all the caves family We depend on sleeping pills as your husband knew. Yes Why? Why did my husband want to kill me? He didn't caroline He knew we'd get you to the hospital in time. He just wanted to make things look right So there wouldn't be a lot of questions asked when you got seventy three thousand dollars Half of which would be your husband's under california community property law Well that wrapped it up all except one thing. We didn't have the killer I phoned sanducci and he got the boys on it an hour went by two hours three hours No trace of medium-sized graying dapper charlie march. That wasn't all I kept phoning the office the lion's house. There was no trace of the lion About noon. I began rechecking the air bus and rail terminals Thank you for waiting, sir. May I help you now? I'm checking on train reservations to the north oragon for the first couple of weeks Of march. I'm a private detective. Next you'll be saying you want to know about the reservation to port of origan obtained in march But charles march. Are you psychic hardly?  That's who i'm looking for and hardly makes you special I noticed that someone was following the fat man gimme medium-sized graying dapper man march march Sanducci, I won't stick here in your office any longer. I'm going down on it rig and rig and I got 20 boys looking for march The whole force is alerted man at the airport a man at union station Man at the bus terminal. What could you do alone? I don't know sanducci, but he's tailing the lion Sanducci, huh Oh, okay, I'll be right down Well rig and we picked up march. They're holding him downstairs Well sanducci well march won't talk sanducci. You gotta make him talk. I've been in a cell with him rig and He says he never saw anybody that answers the lion's description. He's lying sanducci. Well, he may be but what can I do? Here you are jeffrey jeffrey. Why aren't you at the office? Are you taking the day off lion? It's you Well, of course, it's me jeffrey. I've been worried about you. You've been worried about me Well, you haven't been home all day and when I've telephoned the office no answer jeffrey, do we run a business or do we not well you weren't at the office fatso? No, I wasn't lion. What is this? What do you mean? What is it? I should be asking you all day away from the office in my hour of need I told you our april books don't balance. You told me sure. Well jeffrey one of our creditors got on my trail this morning Oh, no, not a medium-sized graying dapper man. Yes a medium-sized graying dapper man Mr. Lucius cronkite of cronkite and bowls pencil shoppers and accessories He's outside the office right now jeffrey and he wants 13 dollars Did you collect rp from mr. Paulson jeffrey? Sure lion sure. I collected it. Here you are jeff reagan investigator is written by william fifell produced and directed by sterling tracy And stars paul debaub as reagan with frank nelson as anthony j lion original music is by dick aron jeff reagan investigator is heard each week at the same time over cbs bob stevensson speaking and inviting you to be with us again for more suspense and mystery and adventure with jeff reagan investigator


So, this is the Weaving the World call on Wednesday, January 5th, 2022, and we're not talking about Weaving the World as much as story-threading and Unfinished 21 and a bunch of stuff that's happening there. So that's the setup, and if that event happened, that would be fantastic, and that got me thinking about a bunch of other things. So I'm just sort of setting up that conversation because the message you haven't read yet on the OGM list, the end of it says, and by the way, the all-singing, all-dancing event would have one or more story-threaders, would have a graphic facilitator, and would have one or more mavens, think Pete. And in a perfect world, what the mavens were generating would be fed over to the story-threaders and to the graphic facilitators, and the graphic facilitators would link back to the story-threaders at the different places where they're facilitating, and all of these would be sort of digitally meshed together, and I didn't say into the big fungus, but I hadn't even thought about that, but that's where this whole thing would be going. And that got me really excited. Yeah, it's super exciting. At some point soon, we should sync up with Wendy Elford because she and I have done another part of that, which is running a panel. Actually, it was a panel that she moderated, and then we've made a website for it. So I never got a debrief on how that conversation went, and you were in it, right? You were part of that call. I was there for the call, but I was an observer. An observer, yeah. Dance. Any feedback on it? It went really well. And Wendy's got more to say, maybe more to ask about kind of she. You know, it's the first one that that we've done like this. The first thing that she's done like this for a long, long time, I think. But on reflection, she she tried to like steer the conversation and keep people like integratively meshed and she felt like she did a pretty good job of that. So just the content of the panel was improved by Wendy doing key moderation stuff. And then there's a whole bunch of things that we've done and learned about turning it into a website. We kind of got started on the whole website thing like a week before, maybe even a less than a week before. So we hired a website design firm run by a principal. And then she farms different parts of it out to people around the world.   It's like, oh, wow, somebody's going to have to write all of that. So we learned a lot and and had had fun, you know. Oh, wow, we have to replace the stock, you know, stock photography with like something real and right, right. There's a whole bunch of gaps to fill. And then the whole process of we're right now, we're in the phase of kind of reviewing how it's coming together with the speakers and with some of the stakeholders. And so we and we built we built a I built a project tracker and it turned out to be in Google Sheets rather than an air table because we were doing it super fast. So anyway, it turned out to be when you start doing things, you learn really quickly how many things there are in in like a simple. Oh, because the first thing was, oh, let's just throw the transcript up on a web page, right? And that sounds like it's a 20 minute task. What could what could possibly go wrong? I can empathize so much with that. And now Stacy can, too. Did you did you did you try to pitch them on building a wiki instead of a website? No, I'm sure that I'm sure that crossed your mind. Well, we've we've built it kind of interestingly. You know, the whole pitch was around it was around a static wiki, essentially. The idea was to more or less story thread into the transcript. I'm not sure that we're going to do much of that. I think we'll just publish the transcript and bringing along everybody, all the stakeholders and into, you know, what this could be, you know, and why why they should pay us more dollars to do that kind of thing. That's that's all another thing, right? Getting stakeholders bought into the. Into more and more like processing of it. So the thing that we didn't do that sounds. So Wendy's already queuing up. This this was it's hosted or sponsored. It was actually sponsored by a Knephen Australia, Australia and then hosted by I think a blockchain company. And so Wendy's already it's it's obviously the first in a series. So, you know, we should all get together and talk about, you know, how to continue to do these kinds of things and as a time series. And a thing that we didn't do is some kind of any of the video stuff. Right. It's all just she descriptive the whole thing. And she's made it better. There was a heckler that that came on during the the conference that she's had to step out. Wow. So you got zoom bombed.  Yeah, no hot topics there. So that it was apparently the the the Aboriginal speaker, who was the one who got, you know, heckled. Big surprise there. And it was actually like the heckler didn't hackle vocally. They they just had a toilet flushing sound. And and the reaction of the audience was really interesting because it's like, well, that's weird. I don't know what that that is. I don't know if he's doing that. I don't know why they're doing that. And it was actually chuckles and stuff like that. Yeah, they're just chuckles. Right. So anyway, that's fascinating. There's a in I think it's James Scott Book about domination and the arts of resistance. He talks about ways that you can resist that aren't noticeable. Like who did it, right? And he says, you know, as the king walks by in the parade, the peasant farts really loudly and you can't tell who of the coutoing peasants is the fatter.  But in the zooms, you can sort of tell what a sound comes from. You can sort of tell. Yeah, that's so interesting. Huh. And that was very passive aggressive, too. Very passive aggressive. And it's like, anyway, so anyway, you know, there was some video editing and stuff like that, but nothing fancy like adding to it. And it would be fun to do that in in future ones. Sweet. Stacey, did you have a thought about that? OK, I was just thinking what about if this guy just went to the bathroom and didn't realize he was immune. I think that was the the conclusion of a bunch of people. It's like, oh, this is one of those things where I could tell right away. It was a sound effect, not because of the bathroom situation. Well, and the sound quality of it, you know, it was recorded. So it wasn't yeah, it wasn't any room echo or anything. In a lot of movies. How does this go? There's a famous screen that that is the home screen. The film home screen. So there's this one screen that dates way, way, way back that is in a lot of movies and gets used over and over again. It's a very strange thing. Actually, we were both going to look it up. Yeah. But it's kind of like, you know, that happens in music, too. So here's a. Here's the film home screen from 1951 from the movie Distant Drums. And then it was used, I guess, at the charge of forever for the river. It's a stock sound effect, and it's an inside joke. And I'm forgetting who the Wilhelm is, but I didn't put him in. That's very strange. And you don't have the sound. I don't have the screen embedded here, which is dumb. I kind of should. Shouldn't I have to fix that? I have to fix that. And so, Peter, I have a follow on question, which is just a lingering question, always in the back of my head, which is, I'm going to say one word and just for your reaction, mavenology. It's a good word. I mean, should it exist? Are you interested? I know you I know you like fully committed to the gunnels at this point, but but I'd love for there to be like a mavenology practice of some sort. If what if any sort of role would you like to play or anything like that?  I think I've owned like the like reasonable domain names around that for at least a while after, you know, after one of your suggestions many years ago, I'm not sure that I still do. It's a little complexified by the by the connection with Mr. Gladwell, who gets kind of, you know, thumbs up and thumbs down, depending on who you're talking to. OK, you mean you mean people's reaction to his book? Like, yeah, OK, yeah. And Stacey, just to fill you in, years ago, I said to Pete because Pete is famous for coughing up brilliant, pithy, well presented research on pretty much anything and on the retreat list, like there's sort of a running running joke that you can ask kind of anything and people show up with, oh, well, there's this. And so I propose that he start a guild called Mavenology or a consultancy or a practice or whatever. And then somehow apprentice, how to take apprentices, basically, because this research function is actually genuinely very important to civilization. And we need lots of them. We don't like if we could scrape Pete's skin cells and culture them. That would probably be good, too. And so that's that's the whole idea is like, hey, hey, this is what we were talking about before, though. Yes, with, you know, we were in that case, we were talking about story threaders, but again, all these. Well, and story threaders would be like buddy, buddy with Maven's would be buddy, buddy with graph facilitators would be buddy, buddy with other people. Right. And there's probably a couple other trade craft schools that we can think of that fit nicely together for. More effective thinking together. Right, because because graphic facilitation is an attempt to memorialize the meeting and it's a thing now. OK, and that's and that's and that's all we're doing. Right. And we know that there's like so much more at hand, except it costs money and time and effort, except it could be and there's no proof that it is, but it could be super valuable. So I'm wondering, like, can we if we're interested, can we find a test bed case? Can we find a conference that's trying to be trying to do good and will fund it? Can we? I don't know. I'm interested now. And Kevin Jones's reply to me was unexpected and so perfect that I'm like, this would be really, really fun and useful to prototype in the world and directly OGM, because the effort, the work, the outputs, everything else would be feeding the big fungus like like really seriously. This this the whole thing smells really good. Great. OK. This with mavenology, I get stuck for a long time, years and straight suggest this like probably a decade ago, maybe even more. I get I get stuck on wondering if it's actually teachable. I'm not sure that I'm still not sure that it is. But I'm halfway through the decade, I was kind of like, yeah, even even if it's not completely teachable, that it's still I guess it's advisable. Well, so I don't want to say that. I don't want to say that I'm a genius at something, but it's a little bit like being a really good swimmer or a really good piano player, right? There are people who are going to like. There are people you just can't ever reach, right? But that doesn't mean that they can't tell you a lot of tips and tricks and get you up the curve. And that's a viable thing. That's kind of where I ended up. And I agree with that. And the feeling I had was first, you would only help people who were already kind of gifted in it, a little bit gifted and leaning in and really eager and anxious to learn more. OK, good. And then you could probably take them from 40 to 80. Yeah. Right. And at 80, most of them would probably tap out or or cap out. And that would at 80, they would be highly functioning mavens who could attend and participate in anything. And then a couple of them would shine brightly and would, you know, push beyond and do new things that we're not we're not even thinking about. And that's really cool because you'd want to you'd want to be like with them and next to that and learning from that as they as they push ahead. So that seemed to be like a dynamic that you'd really like. Yeah. And similarly, similarly to your answer to Jerry's brain after Jerry's gone, it's like the answer is there needs to be a community that's actually learned how to feed my brain, which is kind of what OGM is, but not yet. Similar thing for mamanology. Yeah. Yep. OK, all of which is wish where as often happens here, unfortunately. But but but this is like very tangible stuff, right? This is stuff that's practical, would be useful, we would love to do. I mean, one of the things that really excited me about Kevin saying, hey, how about story threading this neighborhood economics thing? It's like, OK, I would love to be doing my little friend of Jujitsu in that community for those purposes in this way. Like like drop me and this nice new little MacBook Pro in that room with some Wi-Fi and let me open my ears and heart as wide as I can and just like be in the flow. And that will work out. And that that's a really good thing. And Stacey, you were talking earlier about alignment. We were talking about blackmailing yourself. And one of my favorite talks is Jason Roberts, TEDx talk about better block and what she says, you have to blackmail yourself. And so so there we were. Well, the point being that you wouldn't have to blackmail yourself because you'd be in alignment. You'd be so you'd be so aligned. Exactly. Exactly. Kind of along that line, Wendy already has has noticed an effect where she's she's kind of passionate about the, you know, the water and rivers and stuff in Australia. And then and it's a big topic there. I think it's it's a little bit bigger than water in the American West or it's it's more socially engaged, I guess. You know, it's kind of a similar weight of topics, but there's actually more there's more activity around it. Yeah, it's more broader activity.  It's like, I don't care. I just go turn on the tap and it still works. So there's mostly in the US denialism about it. We're in Australia. There's kind of actual work to try to resolve these things. Yeah. So so Wendy ended up finding out a big sticking point around what's going on. And there's this big injustice. And she's like, crap, I and she felt called to step into the situation. Right. And so then she's got this weird, am I trying to facilitate the conversation or do I really need to participate in the conversation because there's this injustice that needs to get fixed ASAP? Right. So it was it was interesting having her bump into that situation. And I was, you know, it was easy for me to say that just means you need to find a champion to do the things, you know, in the content part of it that you need to see done. It doesn't mean that you need to step out of your facilitator role because that's really key. Right. So. I think to watch for or a thing to think about. Makes a lot of sense. So interesting. OK. And then so watch this space because there's going to be other events in that series. Yes. Cool. Then Stacy got stuck on the Daryl Davis transcript because there was a 10 minute gap in the transcript somehow. So what we're going to solve, I'm going to I can even do it now, but just go look at the original video, see if there are words there because then it was a copy paste error of some sort and kind of make that whole. But Stacy, do you want to talk? I only need four minutes left because I did I did it by ear. I just started typing. Yeah, yeah, old school. But at my best, I was only a 45 minute typist. So it's going to take a while. So I'd rather get those four minutes. Yeah, thank you. Do you want to talk a little bit about the active of perfecting the transcript and stuff like that? Well, I'm sure Pete knows about one because you even mentioned it when people jump in and overlap each other. Yeah. So that was a big problem with Jerry and Daryl specifically, in particular.  I knew like when it was switching over because a lot of times when two people, you know, so I mean, look, it's you do learn by doing I walked away from this experience more convinced than ever that every CEO should really start in the mail room. No doubt that made perfect sense. Yeah, at New Science, the first tech job I had ever, we would have stuffing parties when the when the every two weeks we published an issue of our paid newsletter.  And you got to see all your all the clients names. And they just, you know, they just every two weeks they went by and and we would sit there and chatter and like be happy because the big push to get the issue was done and all that kind of stuff. It was cool.  It shouldn't take this long. Great. And that disconnect is actually one of the biggest functions in American workplace. I have two stories. One of them is my first startup, actually. It was kind of early days, but not so early that we hadn't actually built some customers, but at some point we had, I don't know, systems or something had had made it so that we really needed to to run a bunch of credit cards all at once. And so the whole company got together, you know, all four or five of us or whatever and was we're helping run credit cards and the credit card machine we were using made a cool little sound when it actually, like, you know, banked the money for you. So it was really engaged. It was like catching, yeah.  But but actually, you know, seeing the credit card things wearing up was really effective for the whole team, not just the finance department. The other story is just recently, like two days ago or something like that, one of the delivery companies, I forget if it's Dordache or Instacart or whatever, but they've got a rule that everyone does deliveries. I think one day a month or something like that or one day every other month. Everybody in the whole company. Right. And so I think the thread started on Twitter when one of the software engineers is like, guys, I make two hundred thousand dollars. I got hired to do coding. I don't know what the F I'm doing running a delivery. Right.    You know, so I thought that was a really interesting kind of thread going. And there's some company that that makes everybody, you know, do the do the sausage, you know, right, right? And there's a couple of companies that have that ethos and kind of interesting that I like because because Dordache and all these guys are squeezing like people on foot really, really, really, really hard. Yeah. So interesting that the squeezing is still happening, even though that's a company policy. Yeah. Just saying. And one of the problems of General Motors was that all the executives would get a brand new, new model GM car every year. And anybody who as much as meant, you know, drove a Toyota car onto the parking lot would be like ridiculed, banished forever, etc., etc. So none of them understood that these very well built little cars, much smaller, more efficient cars that didn't have an air conditioner that could cool the car from standstill at 100 degrees down to 70 in five minutes, because that was one of their protocols and making up the numbers. Like that wasn't on the Japanese car, just not one of the things they thought people needed. They were completely blindsided through their own culture and arrogance. And then and then they were building the gremlin and the pacer and some really bad buicks. And God knows what, just horrible stuff that fell apart with Pinto. Remember the Pinto? Yeah, yeah, drove across country to Pinto. Oh, seriously? And and live to tell the tale and live to tell the tale. You get a T-shirt printed. I drove a Pinto across country and I'm still here. So anyway. And they had heck of a fit and finish problems, too.  And and then there was a decade or so where it's like, don't buy Japanese cars. We're American cars. We're better. It's like, because we'll solve the problem. What the heck? Yeah, just just buy these shitty cars we're making. Yeah, because they're American. Yeah, and when we give you when we sell you the base car, like it's not really fun to drive because it doesn't have wall panels and it doesn't have like a carpet inside. It doesn't have a it's got like an AM radio that nobody wants anymore. So you're going to have to pay for all these upgrades that are standard in their car, but we don't understand that. Yeah. Yeah. So many things that break, so many things that change, like. And so the missing transcript minutes, it sounds like we don't need to look at that. Well, I want to go look at the original YouTube video and see if that transcript has those minutes. See if there was a gap in the original. So talk amongst yourself for a second. I'm going to mute and share your screen. OK, what would you say? Share your screen. Well, well, I ball it with you. Sounds great. So here's the video. Click on it. It's interesting because the brain is running inside Rosetta. There's this little gap. There's a pause. Can you put in the search? It's because it's when you talk about Diacon. Perfect. So I can go find. Oops, I got to move us. There we go. Open transcript. Actually, you're probably better off putting in white, right? Because Diacon was spelled wrong. Right, exactly. And can I search the transcript? Yeah, if you click in it, I've had success searching in it. Just click in there and then do commandos. Yeah. OK. Oh, God. White, right up under the documentary. White, right. So it's sixty two forty six. How's that? So then you should be able to click on that timestamp and go there. And Stacey, are you are you trying to not do that? Yeah, I'm trying not to exactly. Here's the end of my brain. There we go. See, you're off screen already. Keep going. Sixty three. Go for I have all that. I did all that by ear. OK, tell me when you tell me. Well, you could see the coin drop right around there. OK, perfect. Yeah, right after the word drop. Toggle toggle timestamps. And then so from here to where? Keep going, keep, keep, keep, keep. Can you say the words that you pick up? Keep going, I, I have to do this is all the part I still have to do. Yeah, I didn't do this. Keep going, Richard Spence. You could copy to the end, right? OK, stop.   Oh, stop. But unfortunately, they don't call us, even though I'm not affected. Right, right around put after their life. After. Right in here. So stop there. Wait a minute, hold on, because he repeated himself. So maybe, you know, put it in because just in case. So why don't I capture all this? Yeah, keep going. OK, I know when he talks about the next part, we're good. So I'm going to go D. I'm going to go D, return it for a second. Since we now know how to do that. And Peter, I had to I had to do this several times because it was like. Yeah, I didn't get any of this. I had dinner nationalist groups. Cool. Let's see. There it worked. So now I'm going to copy this and paste it into the transcript document. Which Elias here is. OK, so. Scroll down. Yeah, there. Here's the problem. So persistent world. But I did that already. So now I can take out that's right. So let's let's get rid of this. Delete. Yes. OK, so let's go. Good. And now we go down to where you're slow. No, no, no, because I have to do any question. OK, I'm good to stay in touch. Good. OK, so we're missing begin to compare notes. You could see the coin drop and they're like, you know, and that's top it. Put it in there. So right there. And then let's just make it the same size. Please. This is all all fun. That was the other thing I had to see. And do you shift? Pace it up formatting and paste. Yeah. So command shift, shift to command V. Shift and V. You've got a fancy helper. I do. I have the yeah. Let me just let me just reformat it to the usual font size. Well, yep. Calibri. Twelve. Done. You just move it over, though, because you see how the margins are different. Because I was moving it over by hand. So the margin, the margins are actually funny all throughout. And there's a space here, but the margins are funny throughout. When you were done, I was going to sit down and remove formatting. And go add in formatting and stuff like that. Oh, good. All right. Because I was doing it by hand. OK, good. Don't worry about that. Just worry about what the text says. And so here's you can see the coin drop here. So you can see the coin drop. We're good. And then you can match it up again. Stop. Let me make sure we have everything. Yeah. But unfortunately, of course, thank you. My friends. That's pretty close to. OK. Sweet. Thank you. Sweet. Thank you. That's great. All right. Any other weaving the world ops things we should talk about right this minute? I still have to go back to Jesse and finish the descriptor. I haven't done that, but I'm I'm on track to do that. I'm just getting distracted by a picture he's been and now story threading and all that kind of thing. So one thing that occurs to me is that the current model is to do original episodes, which creates this production thing that we're sort of in the middle of right now. Another way of looking at this is to occasionally do original calls where there's a need or an opportunity or something really interesting to do, but that otherwise to go find a brilliant interview and there's a hefty crop of brilliant podcasts and other sorts of things already happening in the world, some of which have a beautiful transcript sitting on a website already, and then to just go weave those and to go go say, hey, here's our digest of that and then offer that back to the original authors and then put that in, you know, connect that into the big fungus. But to make to make the weaving act, the weaving party an episode. And I don't know how that's going to look. We haven't really done a weaving party yet. So I think that's that's an important next step is to figure out like are weaving parties episodeable? With what would what would happen in a weaving party? So I think that would be post corrected transcript, right? Yes, so there's a clean transcript and and potentially it's somebody else's transcript that we're just coming into and we ask. So let's pretend that we're doing. Let's pretend we're doing these hold. Sitting in my browser now for way too long. Is this nice long interview of Schmacktenberger by Jim Roth? Right, unfortunately, two white guys, so I probably picked something else. But this is a very nicely transcribed episode that's really interesting. That's something I'd like to sort of go into and look at. So let's pretend it's this one. So then we invite, we make a broad invite and see who would like to come in and learn how to weave in the sense that we're talking about here and bringing whatever tools they feel like. If it's a Miro board that they want to use to map this, if they want to use mind manager or whatever. And and then we show up and we start comparing notes. We basically talk about we then we then slow down the dialogue and focus on different areas and share what we know about it, create artifacts ourselves, share screen, share those in and then keep going. And beyond that, I'm not sure. When you say create artifacts, it would be into the mind mapper or the or into procreate or whatever you're wrote or room research or yeah. Or stop or stop, stop or like whatever, whatever the mapper the weaver wants to use, whatever their loom is, right? They show up and use that. And and if Mark Antoine had a working idea loom, he would show up with idea loom and say, well, here's the claim that was made at this point. I mean, that would be really beautiful, right? But I think that's ahead of where he is now. But that's the idea is that is that his acts is different from and complementary to the other the other tools that we're busy using. So the so where where I kind of think through that it's it's fun if everybody shows up with with whatever acts that they're used to. I'm not sure that that's very episode episodeable. I think what is episodeable is once you have a couple of people who can cooperate. So maybe you've got somebody who's drawing Strafon procreate and maybe you've got somebody who's editing in obsidian and they work together, right? Rather than rather than everybody kind of gets to do whatever they want. And you see what happens and it's kind of interesting, but mostly fun for the participants, right? Yeah, so so the early going you're saying would be sort of too messy and this disparate or disjointed. But if we could find a couple of people who are kind of grooving together with different tools where you can see that there's a fit and where it starts to make sense, that's probably interesting enough to episode. Yeah, that's sort of a good preference. Yeah, and I think I think the way it works is you start off with the the raw artifact transcript or transcript and video or whatever. And maybe some clip art and maybe a a framework of a wiki or something like that already there. And then you watch the whole team, the the artisans and the facilitators and whatever walking through the whole script. It's like, OK, this part is interesting, but we don't really need to thread it. Here's a part that we need to thread. Let's take this paragraph and turn it into, you know, so then the wiki person says, this would be great if there were a couple stick figures, you know, in acting what's in this paragraph. And I'll grab these links and, you know, and that's the interesting part, I think, when you see the meat of it. Or, for example, in Wendy Elford's conversation about water rights in Australia, when some piece of the conversation starts, Jean Belanger could show up and say, well, here's a here's a KUMU systems flow diagram of water complex and the issues around it. And then and then we could use that as a durable artifact for the rest of the conversation, in fact, the chain of conversations, right? So so that becomes a nice durable thing. And I'm wondering like you can't really annotate KUMU. You can't really like draw on top of it. But if we took a snapshot of the KUMU and dropped it into Procreate or dropped it into something else, then interesting things start to happen, although you then get out of sync with the with the with the live diagram. But but I'm trying to think of things like that where where we're using each tool and each craft person for like what they do really, really, really well and then fit it back into the mix so that it becomes this this useful elaboration, this isn't this isn't just and now the basis has a solo. This isn't just like the jazz quartet, you know, doing its thing. It's actually trying to shift to the tool that makes the most sense in those different parts of the conversation. So that would be really cool. It could also be that we record the messy parts and the original parts first just to have them. So so Stacy was asking me earlier before you got on the call, did did Emma Schmidt and I record our early conversations after each after having watched she separate and we didn't. We recorded a jam at the end and we published that, but we didn't record our early ones and it could be that we record the whole things and then we say, hey, the conversation gets really juicy starting at this marker, right? And then any hey, everybody start here, but for anybody who wants to, you can scroll back and see the messy parts when we were setting the table up or whatever, that wouldn't be terrible. And for mysterious reasons, super long form media seems to be popular again. I mean, Clubhouse has these marathons long. I look at podcasts and they're like two and a half hours long. Yes. And like, damn, somebody's somebody's and somebody's out there listening to these things. So so. And again, if we have in and out points that are really interesting. And and if we do this really well, the transcript of the call has markers, pointers, you know, basically a directory and other pointers in so that you could just go watch 15 minutes of it, right? And those 15 minutes would have at hand the Kumu map that was in conversation for the whole session, like like whatever the best resources are at that stretch. I'm not exactly sure how to do that. I'm just sort of imagining that. So my. They're at least on the wiki page that has the contents. My guess is there's two modalities of of listening to something. One of them is I'm in the car and it's two hours and 15 minutes. I'm going to listen to the whole thing. Yeah. And then another one is I want to see the curated view of this. I want to see the 20 minutes that really matters to me. And I'll just sit and watch the whole thing. My guess is that the intersection of those, the one where you say, oh, we have this curated view, but you can also expand it into the whole thing. And my guess is that's a real niche thing that that most people wouldn't do. So they either they either want the well curated edited version. Right. Show me the highlights or they're going to listen to the whole thing because it's kind of background for them. Are you are you also saying that it's hard, difficult or impossible to do both in one recording or one production? Or are you just saying that those audiences don't overlap? That's where I was going with it. Yeah. So for both of those people, it's I'm guessing it's fire and forget. It's essentially not interactive to them, right?  But then there are other people who want the highlights, right? But but even those people. So I'm more one of those people. What I I I'm not really just format wise, right? I don't want to have any. For both people, kind of you don't want to have any like overhead on your use case, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like if there's any friction due to the fact that I could actually expand the whole thing and listen to the whole thing, any friction, right? It's like I'm not interested. And which means maybe so you can produce. And so the argument I think I make is you just produce both and and not even support the intersection use case. And yes, but also there could be like a non-destructive cropping way of doing it. So you know how sometimes you put an image into something and you crop it down and that and yet it's it's all right there and you know it's there, but it doesn't show in the finished product. Yeah. So here the script works that way. Exactly. Exactly. So it's got the source and then you can make whatever mixes you want out of it. Bingo. But you could do that here so that for the person who only wants this seven minute snippet, they only in fact see an artifact that looks like a seven minute snippet, but it's the same production behind the curtain. What I what I think I would do sociologically is publish the short version, publish the long version. And the people who are interested in the whole, you know, I want I want to see the source code basically, it's like welcome into the crew. You get to be a volunteer and you get access to all the source code we have.  So I agree with that. And there's there's another small issue here, which is. Which I think you're a fan of let's make lots of copies. Let's let's let's let the copies proliferate. And I'm really interested in links to a topic coming, converging back toward the same general place just to use a really broad word. And if the placement that there were 12 different copies, but they were related and you could find links into that, that's fine with me. But when somebody's talking about neighborhood economics, I'd love for that to converge rather than splinter into because because if you loved the seven minute episode that you were looking at and tagged it up and wove it into the world and that wasn't detectable or viewable from the raw whole episode. That's a big that's a big loss for me. That's a big loss for me.  But I want all good improvements to the work to show up at the canonical version of the work somehow. And so and so when I make available the raw footage of the Daryl Davis interview, for example, and then we produce it and then publish that again somewhere else, somebody pointing to the same damned words is going to be pointing to two different versions of the video and that and that irks me because I kind of I want convergence of the conversation somehow. And I don't know how to solve that. That I don't know how to do that in video and audio, but that that's the thing that you're looking for. So the thing that I'm looking for is to control the process of or to coordinate to coordinate the process of of making remixes and edits and stuff like that, right? So if if you just like dump everything out in the open, people end up like, OK, I'll take this part and I'll move it away from the comments. Right. And not even necessarily because they want to close it just because it's like, well, it's easier if I'm working on it. I'll make my own copy to go work on it for a while. Yeah. It's so cool. So the GitHub model has gotten around that because if I go to a project and I want to do a remix, I click the fork button. It's it's easier to keep it in GitHub than it is to enclose it or even accidentally enclose it someplace else. Right. So GitHub keeps track of the forks and you can go to a project and you can look at all the forks that have been made and almost all of them will be trivial or bad, but you can at least keep track of them all. Right. And then it's it's easy for everybody to say, OK, this one has improved, but they haven't picked up the improvements from the the base source code or and there's a management process where you can tell where the projects have gone after they've forked and you can also re-centralize them whenever you want. So Stacey, just to catch you up in case you haven't used GitHub and programmed on it yet. So so GitHub has repose or repositories and it's mostly open source code on GitHub. So what happens is I find a project that Pete posted some code on in a repo on GitHub. I then fork his repo, which means I make a complete copy of his code and it shows up in my GitHub and I can go work on it. And then I'm like, oh, I fixed a problem. I found a bug and fixed a problem. I then submit a pull request to Pete and Pete can can go. Yep, love it or no, forget about it. And if he says, yep, yep, love it, then my improvement to his code gets added to his main line of code. And that's really good because it means that a community can go like like little ants can go make copies for free, like a full copy of everything for free. It's like available for you to just mess with. You can break it, you can do whatever. And then you submit fixes or improvements and you can do this with a book. You could sort of crowdsource a book by saying, here's here's the draft of the first chapters, submit improvements to sentences or paragraphs within the book. So the model works for lots of different things. And here we're sort of proposing what if that model worked because because what you just said, I totally agree with, except if you don't have a pull request mechanism, then it's only up to somebody to follow all the forks and you don't know which were the good forks and which were the bad forks. And it's that feedback loop of somebody with judgment saying, you know, thumbs up, thumbs down, that that's telling us which are the good bits and incorporating the good bits into the finished main line is brilliant. Like, like that's fantastic because that process allows for the fragmentation and then the reconstitution of the main, the main line. And I like that a lot. So I think we're sort of saying that Fork and Pull will solve some of this problem. Yeah, Fork and Pull and the attendant kind of centralization of the workplace. Right. Well, Fork and Pull doesn't mean there couldn't be then three or four major different forks of the same work, which.  The one of the features of it is whether it's GitHub or GitLab or a Bitbucket or whatever, once, you know, once the source code is living there, it. And especially once a Fork and Pull model is going, it behooves everyone to just keep it in the same centralized place, the centralized host hosting service. Yeah, cool. If I'm understanding this right, yes, and, you know, moving it to like conversations, though, I would want to say it would be interesting to see those things that were rejected. I think that would be really interesting. It yeah, and and it it's that's a really good, really good observation and and it gets super fine grained. So if I'm looking at a pull request from somebody, GitHub shows me all the differences, GitHub or whatever, show me socially all the differences. And I can say, I like this one, I like this one, this one. I'm going to write a comment to them. I'm going to start a whole comment thread about this is great, but, you know, you didn't follow the coding standard or I only want half of this. The other half is junk or whatever. And then I reject this one, except this one. So not only do you see except for Jax, you also can do fine grained conversation around any of the changes or all of the changes. And then. Then there's another thing, branching, which you can have kind of, you know, as a as somebody who wants to modify stuff, it isn't necessarily that I'd modify everything and and offer it back. I might say, here's where I modified the last half of chapter one. And this this is another thing where I did a different modification of the last half of chapter one, where I corrected all the, you know, British Spellings and American Spellings or vice versa or whatever. Right. So I can have two different or multiple different copies of things that I have done differently. And so the maintainer might go, I love what you did here. This one, thanks for trying it. It didn't work, but keep going on this kind of kind of change. And all of that stuff can be done kind of just easily and simply. So why am I excited about Massive Wicking and get except we're not anywhere near any of. Some day we will be, but not yet. Well, cool. We've gone past our hour. This has been super useful. Stacey, we fixed the transcript a little bit. Take care of it. So you're free to roam. Anything else? Good for now. You both on the inner tubes. Thanks.


Hi everyone, Joe for JaspeysCaseBreaks.com. That's me and that is 2020 Panini Daunress Football. Fat Pack Break number eight. Next one's already in the store. I'm just gonna cross it out here, random teammate. We have six football mixers spots being given away in this one. We'll do that in a separate dice roll at the end of this break, but we gotta do the break first. Big thanks to all of these folks here, getting into the action. There are the teams right there. Let's roll it, let's randomize it. Six and a three, nine times. One. Two. Three. Four. Got weird there for a second then. What did I say? I'm off now. Nine times four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. And ninth and final time. After nine we got Chris down to Chris. Two different Chris's. Chris with a C, Chris with a K. And then six and a three, nine times for the teams. One. Two. Two. And ninth and final time. After nine we got the bangles down to the Packers. Here you go. There's the first half of the list right here. Don't feed that guy crispy, I know. And if the dice roll was seven, maybe someone else would've gotten all the spots too. Big thanks to all of these folks right here for getting into it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No trade windows in these little packs right here. Let's sort by column B, let's box that up, let's center it up, let's just print and rip. All right, good luck. Quick little pack break. We gotta do a couple more of these folks and sell some spots out straight up in order to completely fill the mixer. So check the break schedule, I'll give you the details on what we need to accomplish. Pinned in the chat and dropped frequently by Nightbot to keep an eye out for the break schedule. We got a Kamali Correa, blue for the Titans, Richard. We got C.J. Mosley for the Jets, Andy. We got a deck Prescott for the Cowboys. That'll be for Dylan and there's Eno Benjamin right here. Press crew for the Cardinals, Deborah. Super Bowl MVP, Patrick Mahomes, Adam and the Chiefs. Some rookies here. Flip these around every time, huh? All right, there you go. All right, nothing earth-shattering in that pack. That's okay, because the whole point of this really is to see who's gonna win those six mixer spots right there. That's a lot of mixer spots we're giving away. So let's grab everybody's names from Deborah down to Jesse. So it's gonna be the top six after eight. Top six after eight. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven and eighth in final time. Now from seven down to 32, thank you. I appreciate you getting in. Remember, we gotta do a couple more of these. So if you wanna try again, feel free. Jaspyscasebreaks.com. Congrats to the top six. Adam, Jesse, Robert, Michael, Brian and Chris Erickson. There you go, you're in the top six right there. Thank you very much for getting into the action. And everybody else, remember, we've gotta do a couple more of these or maybe buy a spot straight up. However you wanna play it on Jaspyscasebreaks.com is cool with us. Thanks for watching. I'm Joe, I'll see you next time.