Well hello everyone. Thank you for joining us today. Hey Jerry, this is me time. We're good friends, we're good friends, we heckle. No, we scape each other. Hey thanks for joining us. Obviously it's pretty self-explanatory what an open Q&A is.   I was just, that was a bad example. I love my team. So I'll introduce you to everyone. I'm Joel, if you've seen me I'm seeing, you know who I am, I don't need to go into anything and if you haven't seen me I'm seeing, boy did you miss out.  Alana Mikaela, she is one of the, well I keep saying one of the video people. Me and her are the only video people. She's the other video person and she also oversees, we just launched, over this last year we launched Radiant Stories and it started kind of as a feature at blog sort of thing, kind of a la humans of New York, you know what I'm talking about and now we're launching it into podcast films and the blog and so if you go to Radiant Church, Radiant.Church.Stories, you'll see a little section for a film, for podcasts and the blog and they're really awesome and all we're doing is just, you know, sharing people's testimonies and stories and it's amazing how powerful it is to connect to people. So Anna as well and Alana working that together, Anna is another designer. She does a lot of pretty much all of our print stuff for the most part. Really excellent lay, I mean if you've seen any of our books and stuff that we've done, that's all her, she's incredible and but also really diving in deep with the stories is kind of a new project for us. We're learning as we go and then Ashley is our air traffic controller. She makes sure none of us crash our planes but she is, I would say she's a, you know, project manager, production manager, whatever but she's a lot of things and she's an incredible systematic mind. In terms of project management and helping get all people on the same page, she's a really brilliant season to mind and I'm really thankful for this crew. We've been together, I mean this team in this iteration, you know, without any transition has been almost a year, well a little less but a little over a year for the rest of us, a little bit longer than that even but you know when I came on it was kind of built from the ground up. So this is kind of where it's at. Jake started as an intern and is now full time on the team and just a gifted artist. So we're really new as a team but at the same time there's a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram of relationships and history and all that stuff. So thanks bro. And so it feels like we've been together longer than we have but there's still a lot we're learning. So we don't have to process with these. Does anyone have anything they want to lead off with? Could be about any discipline, genre of work, whatever, systems, anything at all. Jerry. Greatest disaster. Greatest disaster? Not the greatest disaster for people who don't work here anymore. I had a guy who had so many typos on his print pieces, we paid more for reprints than his salary. So it didn't work out. You talked about the solid collective at all? He hadn't, can't. Who's original idea to start that? It's me and Kayla. Yeah, me and Kayla. I was trying to find an audio Bible. I was writing a script that was meant, it was for a project that was based on the life of Job. And so I was like, I'm going to listen to Joe while I write this and all I could find was like terrible William Shatner-esque like terrible radio opera. I was like, man, these things have like 300,000 views on YouTube each because everyone wants an audio Bible but this is the worst. It's like surely there has to be a better audio Bible. And then we just started talking and so it kind of, it's just a passion project basically and it's, we wish we were further than we are but the first one was we're doing the book of Psalms. If you don't know what this is, we had, we have one of the videos playing in the pre-service video but it's the first volume of Psalms 1-41 and we hired amazing talent to do the recordings like, you know, it's, it's, we weren't looking for someone with a good heart but no history or talent. So we got some really great actors to voice, both male and female, to voice these songs. We wanted it to feel like you were hearing David pray it for the first time. So it was more like we want you to experience this not theologically primarily but emotionally and poetically and so Caleb is obviously, he's the, you know, the tall drink of water who's amazing, co-reckless love author and whatnot. So he's obviously incredibly talented. We go, like, our parents went to college together so we've got a long history together, played music together, did lots of projects together. So it was a natural fit for us. We love collaborating and we're still trying to chip away to do all the Psalms but the idea is to make, you know, something that is more than just tolerable to engage with the word and hopefully it's a blessing to people who are able to engage with it and we made it into videos too. So, you know, I kind of directed the actors and we worked together with a little bit of music, music was mostly him. I did a lot of the editing and then all the video and everything like that. So it's, it's a fun project. It's very time consuming. It's like making a feature film. It's an hour and a half long. It took a really long time to get it done and there's more to go. So that's that. It's on Spotify, Apple, or iTunes, Apple Music, YouTube, all that stuff. So you can stream it or whatever. Can you walk through kind of the creative process working with Lee and the other teaching pastors and like how that all for a something, for like a weekend experience, I guess. Yeah. I would love to have the team jump. We all kind of played different roles in that, you know, with Lee in particular, it's, you know, he'll, he's moving into a season where he's not going to be doing as many series and more one-offs, just because he feels like that's where he's at right now. But for the roll-ins and or for the, for the, for the service, there's a few components. We have graphics, we have roll-ins, we have all these, you know, come on the website and all that stuff. So why don't we just go on the line and everyone just kind of talk about like, what are some of the different roles you've played and whether it's helping create the video roll-ins or the, which if you're wondering what the others are, we've got them on the website and stuff. We have a creative media page on the website. You can check out all of these different things. Graphics, even just, Ashley, I'd love to hear about how just like managing all these things moving at once. So maybe like a timeline as well. So how many weeks out are you doing that? I think you mean days and hours. Okay. So ultimately in our, in my like perfect world, I try to start like bugging and poking about it and seeing if there's anything stirring. Um, usually going through Joel, but he'll use it, prompting him to go talk to Pester Lee about three months would be like preferred. Honestly, it usually looks more like three or four weeks, I feel like, is probably like, like for a series. Like for real, like that's like a way ahead of the game kind of thing. Yeah, for one off, it will be like a week out. Um, but usually Joel knows a lot about getting the like creative vision and understanding of what he's wanting and he'll usually come back and bounce it off either on or Jake and kind of work through them to try and get a good feel for where we're going. Yeah. Um, so once it comes to myself or Jake, sometimes both of us, Jake, myself and Joel will usually sit down together and talk through what Pester Lee has kind of presented as his vision for, because he's really visual and he loves to be involved with what we love and he has really specific things that he wants sometimes. Um, and then we kind of brainstorm together for a while. We had like sit down sort of creative chit chat session where we talk, you know, colors and you know, do we want to do hand type or do we want to table font or something like that? And you just throw out different ideas. That's just kind of a, we should go for it. All three of us together. Sometimes it's me and Jake. Or it's me just like constantly texting or messaging them, which is I like like all hours of the day and night. They're sending us directions. Short texts. I don't think I've ever actually texted. I'm just talking to my phone so everyone gets like a basis from me. So yeah, that's kind of where the brainstorming starts and that's usually, you know, like one work day. We'll set aside maybe an hour or something like that in our schedule to talk about, you know, where we want, how we want to move forward, which idea is best. We, you know, that type of thing. We find inspiration on the internet, stuff like that. And then either myself or Jake will design the art to go on with it. So like the branding for the sermon series or the one off, which usually means a static sermon slide. And then that gets translated into any role in that Pastor Joel does for the sermon series. And sometimes graphics drive the whole thing. Pastor Lee's come up with a book called Flourish. She did a series called Flourish last year. And the artwork was like the, on it did a graphic that was really cool using like old like floral patterns and block text. It was like, you need to feel like the full range of feminine and masculine and like poppy, but cool and serious and da, da, da. So she came up with that look. And then I went off that and made the video rolling and stuff like that. And, but other times I make the thing. I'm like, here you guys go. This is what it is. Make graphics for it. So it's really, there's not like a one size fits all sort of thing. It's, what's the strongest idea? And we use that kind of as the true North. That one's free. I'll be here all week. Maybe you don't have anything to say about this, but Elena's first week, like, I mean, you were like right out of the gate. I'm like, Hey, we're going to do this rolling. Here's the concept. Here's the camera.  And then she was like, Oh, okay. Like first day, like hi, I'm Elena. I work here now. No, no, no. We'll talk about that later. Go. How was that for you as you're comfortable now in a lot of ways, but first time right out of the gate? Yeah, I mean, it was really nice to just jump in because I had never worked in ministry before. I never envisioned myself working ministry ever. I had just left a job that I was convinced I'd be at for a million years. And then I did this. Yeah, it was really great. But, but yeah, so it was the camera I never used before with people I don't remember before. And so we just went out for a full day and shot a bunch of stuff. We just had this old, it was the tuned in series. I don't know if anyone is familiar with that, but it's like an old radio from, it was Jane, Lee and Jane's, her dad's right here from the fifties. And all those all they heard in the voice of God. So I had them set up all over town and they went to all these different locations and I got amazing stuff. Yeah. So I thought it was really cool because in the, it's the first role in that radiant had done in like since you got there, that was actual film and well not literal film, but digital film and footage and stuff instead of just graphics or working in After Effects or in Photoshop or something. So I thought that was really cool because like adding a videographer and then saying, all right, we're actually going to use you now instead of just like having one added and it really like helped the team kind of merge and realize how like footage can really supplement what they were doing and then it's rolling and everything. And that's a great example of how expanding the team helped because I was the only video person. It was like, I was spinning 8,000 plates all the time. So like a lot of this stuff was like, I just need to make this at my computer. I don't have time to go out and shoot anything. And so by the time she came to my team, it was like, oh, we can actually do things that don't rely on like the bottleneck of one person. So anyway, I don't know if that totally helps, but it's serious. I just recently stepped into the creative director role at my church and one thing that I'm finding kind of difficult is like clearly we're more graphically driven and everything, having a social media presence and all that. But there are so many other elements to creative and I didn't know how if that has anything to do with you or how do you communicate like things with the environment?  How do you, how do you include those people into it without letting them think like, oh, well, I'm not a graphic designer. I'm not a videographer or anything like that. How do you inspire them to, to still be like, you know, when you don't necessarily have anything for them? So that's what I'm understanding your question correctly. So like, if you know that the core value or mechanism of creativity is let's just say graphic design, are you saying like, how do you include everyone else who maybe occupies other spaces but really that still prioritizes this? Is that an accurate way to say it? Yeah, yeah, because I don't want to, like for, I feel like I have to encompass everything, but I really think like the main focus should be graphically, but I don't, I just have a heart for people and I don't want anybody to ever feel like they're left out because they can't do this. Sure. That's a dilemma as a leader. It's not really a problem. It's a dilemma because problems you can solve and dilemmas are usually paradoxes that you can't really truly resolve. You, by the way, from the coexist, I think the least loving thing you can do is to not focus on what you can be best at and ex, and, and therefore you're punishing, you're not punishing is a strong word, but you're stopping everyone else in the church that you're serving from experiencing the best thing you have to offer because you're trying to include other people. So what's the win to find the win? If the win is involving people, involve people because then the result is less important than that. But if the result of A, B, and C is the win and this doesn't support that, then don't do it because it's not really loving. You don't want to hurt anyone, but also like, you know what, like people get hurt about stuff and it's not your responsibility to make them respond a certain way. If it's not a priority or church, the least loving thing to do is prioritize it. So does that make sense? I would say, what would you guys say? I mean, we constantly feel that dilemma between what do we do? What's our priority? How do you include people? When, when shouldn't you? When can you just do it better without that? Does that make sense? What do you guys think? I totally agree.  Like, does that help improve the concept of church? Or is there another expression that they do that's outside of, like, the official congregation? That's what I would expect. I don't feel like... Yeah. Anyone else have anything to chime in on that with? Does that make sense? Is that helpful? Yeah. I'm not saying don't include people. Right, yeah, no. And I feel like I was a bit, like, I need to kind of focus more on, like, our graphic designers, our social media people, and the, some of the... Focus on the thing that you can do best. Yeah. Because that will attract more people that you want to attract. I do think you can, but there are ways, like, finding, you know, if you do have a painter, like, is there a way that you could incorporate that into social media?  And I think time is the real key. You should... I try to live by the 60-40 rule. 60% of focused time block work, where I'm doing the most valuable work I can do. 40% tasks, writing copy, email, admin, base camp, even though she will tell you I'm not very good at that. You know, the stuff that you've got to do in order to make the thing move, unless you're, like, I mean, Ashley, for instance, is a project winner. So the stuff that her tasks for me is, like, her job. So it's different for her than it is for me, but for me, if I'm not spending the journey of my time doing the thing that will move us forward that only I can do, then I'm not really serving. So maybe what you can do is go, okay, I'm going to look at including people as a task and not a time block for me to do my best creative work. So I can budget this much time.  If you don't budget anything, you're going to spend everything. So, say, I can spend an hour a week involving people. What is that? What's the best way to use that hour? Instead of getting the person to maybe... I'm not dissing. It's interesting. Maybe the best way to spend that hour is not to find a way to get their artwork in the lobby. Maybe the best way is to, like, show up with a cell phone and go, hey, we're going to do an Instagram story. We want you to just tell us your story. We're going to go live. We're going to stream and we're going to save it. And it's low production, low effort, and it makes them feel valued. And you go, hey, we value the arts and the creatives. We don't need to force it into a ministry model on a weekend for it to be of value here. Does that make sense? For even just developing relationships with that person, until the prime time, you know, comes where you do need a painting, like having a video and coffee once a month is valuable now, that will lead to something better. Anyone else going to do that, or can move on? You good? All right, so I'm a restructure of my church, which means not only do I handle all the music stuff, but I handle all the creative stuff. So, uh, graphic design and video and socials, head of that and website, everything. So, as far as, like, budgeting time and that tough idea, what should be like the biggest priorities? Because there's like... What's your church's biggest priority? Yeah. Do you know the three things are the most important on a weekend for you guys? And I'm literally asking this, it's not a loaded question. Um, I mean, we want to see, first time, yes, we want to see... So, connection? Yeah, connection, we want to see people, you know, grow in the faith, right? Disciples and... Absolutely. So, discipleship. I guess you can say open and out, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I think the best way to prioritize your time are to focus on the kinds of projects that make those things bigger wins. So, if your biggest priority is connection, maybe for you, maybe that means a simple talking head of your senior pastor talking about why connection is a discipleship is so important and how people can plug in. Or maybe it's a graphic because maybe that is a priority, but we make it pretty easy. The guys over at Guest Central, they can get people plugged in really easily and it's conversational and relational. So, maybe the priority is communication on the weekend of how to find the guys at the connection place. So, maybe it's on our screens doing, you know, some of the ways we try to do it, you know, there's slides in the lobby, there's a 15-minute countdown video that's like our movie preview is that everything, it's always changing, events, calendar, this and everything. So, you've got to find out ways that you can execute with it. You've got a lot of plates spinning and some of them aren't going to stay up there. They're going to fall and break. But if you don't establish a priority, there will never be one. So, you have to establish what is the most important thing that moves us forward and then prioritize because it's a myth that there are such things as priorities. It's not a word that entered the English vernacular until like 150 years ago. So, you can only have one priority and everything else is secondary or tertiary. So, that would be my advice and that'll make you sane. And one thing that I did early on when I first got here, it was like that. I had so much to do and I didn't have a big team. The team was smaller than this and it wasn't even these people. So, it was clearly like up in the air, we didn't know where things were going to land in a million ways. And I grabbed Pastor Lee and I said, here are the 15 things that we have going on. I need you to put these in order for me and I need you to then agree to the time blocks that I can put my team into these. Make it his idea. If you make it your pastor's idea, then you don't have to get off the hook for anything. Instead of thinking, hey, man, this isn't working. We've got to do more of this. And then you go, okay, then tell me where you want me to put the time there or there, you know? Like, there's a way for you to absolve yourself of an unfair burden of making decisions for the leader while also not absolving yourself of the responsibility of participating in that. Does that make sense? Yeah. In my experience, some of which I've had it to, some of which I've received and was part of, in the creative world, one of the easy things to go out the window, especially in times of pressure, is a culture of honor. When there's disappointment, there's unmet needs, there's disagreement, there is legitimate clashing of expectations of time, and people coming in going, I hate that, love that, and why don't you do that more? So, and you have that internally with your team here, everyone sees things differently. No, we all agree. You have that with Pastor Lee, and I'm sure there's moments that you guys disagree. And as a pastor myself, coming from the creative world, but now driving in a different way, I just wonder if you guys could talk about creating, maintaining a culture of honor while still celebrating you guys' differences. I'd love to hear everyone on this, so Ashley, why don't you start it off? Because of all of us, I'm really interested to hear your answers, guys. How do you relate to those you disagree with? No, I would love to hear, for real, because everyone's going to have a different perspective, because it touches all of us differently. Yeah, I feel like it's something that Joel does really well. I feel like it's being able to be open and honest, I feel like for me, I can express like, these are my opinions, this is my view on it, because it's, so much what we just are and it's subjective, like really, it is totally up to the person how they interpret it. So as long as I feel like I can express clearly in an honoring way, like keep my heart in check, I have gotten to the point now where I'm like, I'm okay, like I've expressed what I think, if you want to go on a different direction, that's great. I really truly feel like it puts you in a spot, when you can get your heart to that spot. Okay, I can let it go. You can go home and sleep and enjoy your family. And really, it's freeing for me to be able to just be like, okay, that's your decision. I'm okay with it. I would agree with that. It's very difficult as an artist to disconnect yourself from the heart of what's happening, which sometimes is a gift, you know, you put your whole heart into something, if people can see that and people appreciate that, but I know it's definitely a lesson that I've had to learn over the years is to know when, you know, this is the best idea to win. And it's really not a personal thing. It's all about honoring each other in a collaboration. And the best idea really will win out. So I think another thing that I've practiced as well is just really, really being aware of when I am expressing my opinion. And it's valid. And when I'm just complaining, and when I'm taking it personally, like, I really try and practice not complaining about, you know, the minutia, or whether things are stressful, or whether I disagree with this person or that person, even if it's outside of this department. I feel like it's a practice that, and the word you use, Jerry's great honor is a great word to just like put on a post-it note and stick to your computer. Yeah, I think just practicing a lack of complaining or, you know, uplifting speech. And I, like Ashley said, Joel's really created a culture of openness. And I think that's super, super important to be able to be vulnerable, not just about the stuff that is work related, but about, I mean, even your personal life on your team. You can't, you can't come to work and not feel like you can talk about what just happened, you know, at home or something like that. So it really is like a family kind of culture, which really perpetuates honor. Yeah, I think something else that our team kind of does unknowingly is that we all really respect everyone's process of the art they create and how they make it. And so, like, even though, like Joel and I are the only people that film, and even though, like, Anna's doing all the print and no one else is really doing a lot of the printing, well, Jake helps with stuff too, but he does most of the graphics. We all, like, know the work that goes into it, and we understand how hard they're working. We all sit in the same room together, so we're watching everyone, like, slave over things and everything. And so when someone comes up to someone else and says, I don't like that, or obviously in a nicer way, it's kind of just like, yeah, that's it. It never feels like, that sucks, you should start over, you're, it never feels like that.  It's never arbitrary, I feel like it's, we all have, like, an informed sort of feedback that we give each other, at least we tried to. Yeah. I'd say for me, and even being, like, kind of just coming into this stuff, like, I never thought I was going to do art or graphic design or anything like that. So that whole process of learning how to, I guess it's just really important to not be offendable, is that's a huge thing.  I mean, a lot of that, like, knowing that if I create something and I bring it to Joel or bring it to honor anybody else, I'm going in knowing that, like, I can trust my team and I can trust my leadership, and I'm also not going to be offended, kind of what they were saying about, if they don't like an idea, because art is so personal, and you get into that kind of mindset of, like, this is my passion, like, eh, like, get over yourself, like, honestly, like, if I know the why of what I'm doing, what I'm doing, it's not to create cool art, it's not to be cool, it's not to do anything like that. Those are important though, Jake, because I want to make cool art. Of course that, it's a value for me. For sure. But my goal isn't to be, like, this cool dude that makes cool stuff and people look at it, it's, I'm wanting to create an element that the Lord can use to prophesy his heart into people. And so if I'm doing that well, then if my art kind of sucks the first round and everyone else sees it, I'm going to trust my leadership around me and also not be offended because someone else is seeing something that I'm not. And so I think a lot of that kind of starts with you. In the culture of honor things, the honor was saying, like, the Lord has really been convicting me on that lately, is because, like, man, even like the little things, like, you're throwing seeds into soil that are really, really ready to start producing fruit really quickly, especially in a team like this. And so even just like the little comments and those things, like, you actually carry that in with you into the workplace. And so if I know that someone else has an opinion about a leader or anything else, I'm going to be filtering that through my head as well. And so being really careful about, like, okay, I have trust for this person, but this person has an issue with this leader. And so now that's my filter now. And so if you were talking about someone else, that's my new filter. It's not anything that I experienced with another leader. But you're, you're kind of creating that trust. And when you actually have each other's backs, and you actually have that kind of accountability of, man, like, we are all in the same thing.  And that's just a part of it, being a family. I'm going to talk about you. But that culture of honor is huge, you know? And it's okay to be upset. Like, I mean, we've all had issues and whatever, but we get through it. But it's like, man, like our, our why is really a lot more important than having that kind of vulnerable.  Like, just get over it. So going out of your way to, like, celebrate the win.  Really, when they did a good job, just tell them they did a really good job and, and let them feel like you honoring them is going to be a really good, like, important relationship. And on top of celebrating when celebrating failure is something that Joel really fosters in our group. Like, when we were first starting, I would ask so many questions that I'd be like, I don't know exactly what you want, or what's the vibe, what's the specificness is. He's like, I don't care, go fail. And then you'll make something right next time, which is awesome. And so, like, I'm just pointing out, hey, you failed at this, but then you actually, you just start over till we get her right. It'll just be like seeing something tiny from a failure in this huge success. Like, whether it's one font that we hated in this thing is actually, wow, incredible on this other thing. So celebrating what comes out of failure for beauty. That's awesome. I think, one of the things that's really important to me is vulnerability. They kind of touched on that. Vulnerability is not immature processing or unbridled expression of emotion. It's, you know, it's authenticity I, a lot of times it's easy to give like the right leadership answer. But like sometimes, like, it's really important for like, for me to be able to express, like, I'm not a robot who's here to like check off the boxes of my job description. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not primarily your director part, although I am. Like, like, it's, it's so much bigger than that. And so I think one of the things that allows for, like, and I don't do this in a self deprecating way, but like, they let me see me hate my own ideas and start over. Like, you know, success is failing with style. Like, you kind of just do things over and over until you find it. And, and to one of your points that you asked was like, kind of how do you, when you disagree with Pastor Lee or, I don't ever really feel like the, the why and the big, the capital W wins. We are so in sync on that how we get there is far less important than getting there. And there have been times where I have deferred to things and then I go, you know, I'm going to make this the best thing I can, even if I'm not getting it right now. There's times when I bring an idea and he loves it and we're going for it.  But I think one of the things most, one of the most graceful ways you can redirect creative energy and like even a collaborative ideation process is instead of saying, no, and here's why I don't like it, you can go, yeah, okay, yeah, I get, I see that. What if we tried this? Like, not, hey, let's try this. Like, what if, like, just go with me for a minute. This may be a terrible idea, but what if, and when you actually allow yourself to spit out terrible ideas because like 99 out of 100, not good, like ideas are cheap, you know, it's like, I have a thousand ideas for things right now. One of them might be good, but we share bad ideas and that's, and that's part of it. And I think it, it even reinforces trust that you're like, okay, they are looking at this from a million angles. Like, it's not what I'm being rigid in our approach. Like, I'm not afraid to throw it all away and start over.  It's a little 30 second bumper that's like, it can either be super vibey or like hyped up or whatever. But I approach it every time going like, they, we just got done with video announcements and they took offering. And so people have transitioned from encountering the Lord in worship to now maybe the distraction and did, I want to arrest their attention so that there is tilled soil for Lee when he gets up there. And so that's the win, not him liking the role in. And there was the best example of this was the Fleurus series that we did. I think it's kind of become everyone's like favorite role in it's good, it's good. But the first one I did, I was like, Ashley, what do you think about this? And she was like, it's like, you're not talking. This is not good. Like, it was bad. I just, I was hitting writers like I spent so much time, it was wasted time. And then I was like screw it. Oh, fine, I'll do the thing that I know is going to take longer. And it ended up crushing, but it took her being honest with me.  I value their critique as much as they hopefully, I mean, they don't really get to choose whether or not I give it, I guess. But we have, but critique is every in every one of these interviews that we ever did, I'm pretty sure I brought up how much I value honest, open, vulnerable feedback on work and on team chemistry because, you know, people are feeling too, like, man, I remember when I was senior in high school and I was going to like portfolio days at, you know, our colleges and like, you've been really, I'm going to spend a whole day here waiting the line forever, like I'm at Disney. So you can tell me what's not good about my work so that I can get better. So to me, critique was a really valuable process. And it's something that a lot of people, it's like, oh, this is my art. This is my worship. You can't critique that. I'm not critiquing your heart, but you got to get better. Please just tell me the person who changed the world by being sincere and not masterful. Like it just doesn't happen very often. And so the road to mastery is paved with critique and that's, that can be a really actually strengthening process. And when you, and when you open yourself up to it, and then you also are, because one of the things that says as hard as receiving is sometimes it's really hard to give it because it's like, I love you.   Like, that's so harsh. Like, it's not like you're on Facebook making a comment. You're never going to see the person. So, you know, it's more of like, you know, redirecting and regaining, hey, this isn't working for me. And here's why. And then here's why is really important. When I say, Jake, we have conversations all the time like, yeah, that's not working for me. Here's why. And then it's like, all right, you know what, I like this, but I understand why you don't. So let's find a win. And the win is the impact of that person during that sermon, or during that video that we're going to send out, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is, you know, does it make sense? Hopefully that's helpful. Who else? If you can put a percentage, what is the percentage of your workload that you guys may take? For example, events, sermon, series, ministry, things like handouts from the nursery, or something like that? Yes. What is your workload percentage? And the reason I'm asking is if you have a couple of churches where we're very event driven, very, every ministry has event, event, event, and how are you going to burn out? Yes. Ashley is the point guard. She receives all the requests. I'll throw out one sentence and then I'll let her take it, but I think we allocate percentage and priority based on us having really good communication up the line of what the capital P priorities are. And so I'll let Ashley answer maybe how she kind of pros, because one of the things that she does amazingly is it's not just like she's not the first line of approval or denial, even though she wields the power in that button. She knows when people are actually asking for the wrong thing. And so she'll be intuitive and go, hey, we know where we're going. We know where we're going. We know the priority right now. Pastor Rick, say hi. That's right. He's kind of our, he's everything. He's like our CEO as it were in a lot of ways. And he just helps us keep these things running. He works really closely with Pastor Lee. And so we know we can go to him and go, hey, what's the priority? How does this, so we work really closely up the line. But then Ashley, what does it look like once we're talking to Pastor Rick, Pastor Lee, or the client over the department is once we have all the information, how do you feel that process is for you in terms of understanding the scope of the project? Is it the right scope? Is this how much time? Who should be working on this? Blah, blah, blah. I don't know. We work together on some of that, but kind of describe it from your perspective. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is figuring out like what's the priority for the organization and starting there and starting with the big rocks. I kind of look at our whole team schedule kind of linearly. You know, we have two conferences coming up this year. We have Easter weekend and we have Christmas.  I'm going to take the whole year and like put big old rocks in. And that's what I want, like the majority of the team's time planning and chunking out as we process through. And then as smaller stuff comes in, I'm looking at thinking, okay, is this, you know, is this hand out for the kids that they need to communicate with these parents? Like, is this the best way? Like, I need to make sure that I have a really good understanding of what they're actually trying to do.  It's, I take it upon myself to like look at it and really get a clear understanding like, what are you actually trying to do is a postcard? Does that make the most sense? Like could we instead of, you know, printing a postcard and giving it to every person in the church, could we send an email to these 10 people that this information actually has to go to? And then in this... For real, y'all? You know, and then if that's the case, we need to send them people.  Or could the department head, could they send that out? Could the kids department pastor send that out to those 10 people and have it be relational and have it be a win there instead of having to take up time writing a copy for it and making graphics for it and embedding things. And so I try to go down that list and think like, what's going to be the win for that department's thing and for my team? And it's very possible to fatigue your entire community. Like we have, I don't know what, 10, 12 lines of communication that we use regularly, maybe more when you include all the different social media platforms and email and the screens and the foyer and you know, drop cards, all these things. Not everything goes to all 10 or 12. Like it's like, you know what? Like we can make a video, we're great at making videos. We got some good videos up in here. If everything was a video, no one would pay attention to videos.  Like it's not, no one's going to read them. So we're really intentional about what is the best fit and then that helps drive the prioritization of time. And then also you have to look on return on investment. There's a lot of things that we would like to have. But what's the return on investment? If it really is as simple as like, like she said, like she's a generic example, these 10 people need to know. And maybe it's maybe it's 10 community group leaders and there's a big community group event. But really like, does everyone in the church need to notice these 10 community groups that are going to do the cleanup at the school now? And like, what's the most effective way? Because what's the win? The win is getting these 10 groups there. All right, well, let's communicate the most effective way. This one was communication should be relational and not production. You know, and I think that if you get those things really tight and prioritized, then you'll like over time, I think there's been a couple times where we've had to like, this is like, Hey, we need to we need a video for this. And we've said no to a lot of stuff, not because we don't want to make a video, we make a lot of videos. But we're like, you know what, like, you're not going to get the result you want. So let us show you how we think we can get the best result and the best turnout. And there have been times where people have been nervous, like, we're not promoting this early enough. I'm like, two weeks is plenty. Trust me. And the thing were passive, passive. Like, and now the next time around. Okay. So sometimes going it takes a little bit of risk, but asking for some trust of like, you've entrusted this to me. Now you need to either trust me to win for you, or trust me to fail and learn and do it better next time. And that, and that's just healthy organization. And not every organization is healthy. And we all know that I've been really unhealthy organizations and it's not fun. And I laughed, you know, like, it's, it's, it doesn't always work everywhere. But if you can be an agent of change by promoting those kinds of dialogues and things, then you're going to find yourself ahead of anticipating things instead of reacting to them. It does. And we're from like the heart of the church, no problem. You know, it's just we have themes that come in and it's our creative director of all the million things that this person has to do. She now has to set every task and she takes it from herself. Yes, he knew there's no meaning that our project manager literally takes an email and puts it into a software protest. And that's all she does. And to hear that it's you that get to say yes or no, would relieve our creative director to direct it on you. And the whole ultimate power, like I make rational decisions. I make decisions based on like, you know, what I feel, you know, I can make and I can feel confident in it. And then if I have a question, like we take it to, I'll take it to Joel and then we'll take it to our campus faster and like the operations meeting every week. It's kind of a process. Yeah, we have, it's a very collaborative process. And one of the things that is really important and it's a value here is that trust is given and mistrust is earned. So if you're on my team, you're here because I trust you.  So, you know, so she, when she's making decisions on behalf of our department, I know and trust that she's very confident that it's actually in the best interest of that department or that event or that whatever, but she knows there's a threshold at which, you know, like, you know, we really need input because the implications of this decision, and that's why her systematic mind is so helpful to us because she knows where implications are made in decisions. And so we always, we have an open dialogue with a lot of things and we have meetings with our campus pastors. Like there's these tiers of decision making and we always know where, which decisions need to get made where. And there's times when it's a team effort and we speak into it and there's times when we just go, you know what, what do you guys want to do? Because we don't want to make the decision because if we make the decision we've got to own their holes. I want you to just tell me what you want here. Does that make sense? And I think too, if your creative director is truly a creative director, then you don't want them bogged down with administration. Like, what's the one thing they can do better than anyone? That should be why they're there. And if they're doing somewhat, it's not that they're doing someone else's job, but it's like, if your church will have to make the decision, we either want a creative administrator or a creative director, if you can't have both. And if you really want them to be creative, then you really have to define priorities. Like, what's really important? What can we live with and what can't we live without? You know? And so some of that time, it's like, we have to self prune. That's something that over the last two years, we're still a process here. It's so easy to do stuff. It was a win. Let's go bigger and better. And one of the smartest things you can do to carry forward innovation is to self limit. Self-imposed artificial limitations are the soil that innovation grows in. It absolutely is. Pixar is a phenomenal example.  But Pixar is a phenomenal example because it wasn't always this way, but now it is. They're like, all the money in the world, probably. It's like, there is no limit. They're owned by Disney and there's no limit. But every project they have, they have self-imposed limitations on their production budget. So how they measure that is a person week. So what's the amount of work one person can do in a week and they've got popsicle sticks that represent every person week. And they have this whole grid that they create and the producers and directors, they put all the popsicle sticks and how much time are we going to spend on all these things? And if something goes wrong and they need to fix something, or if they want to change an idea or a concept, oh, we really need to change the hair in this thing, which hair and computer animation is like insane, right? They're like, great. You want to do that? Awesome. Where are we pulling the popsicle sticks from? And it's like, because we're not going to spend more time on this. We've got 18,000 person weeks because they got a few thousand people working for them. This minute we're not here's the deadline. We are not coming in over budget or late. So where's it going to come from? And that's discipline and that's actually really good stewardship. Really good stewardship is knowing when to limit yourself and it really frees you up because it's not like we're not not doing things because we can't. We're being strategic. It really helps you define your why, you know? I think we're doing that pretty well. We got a long way to go. It's a process. It's a direction. It's not like we didn't get there overnight by any means and we're not there yet, but that's kind of, would you all agree with that? I hope you do. I feel like that's where starting with your big rocks, those non-negotiable, we're doing this. We're having service every weekend. That's a non-negotiable. We're having this conference. People paid for it. We have to have it. In focusing on that stuff and planning that out first, then you have a better idea of what your limitations are because then you can go into, you know, the three months at a time knowing like I have to devote 20 hours a week of this for each of my team members or it's not going to happen. So if we want to do, you know, make videos for 40 hours a week, either everybody's working crazy overtime or it just isn't for you to realize. Who else? How would you suggest motivating a creative team based on volunteers? Why are they there? Motivation is based on why. So, paid or not, you know, if they're there because they're God's gift to you, it's poison and it's not going to help you. And a lot of people, not going to try, we are heavily relying on volunteers at radio every other church up there like the kids ministry ain't going to happen. The youth ministry ain't going to happen. Connection and all these things are going to happen. But I think what you want to do is really if volunteers are, if this is our model, we are going to do this with volunteers then having the relationship strong and communication strong is really important. But then I think if you're trying to drive results, if you're trying to motivate them, you have to tap into like why they're there and what their motivation is. And that way you go, man, this person is way more skilled than that person. But this person wants control and they're critical and they're not that nice and they do good work. But man, it stresses us out. You should probably serve in first impressions, you know, or something. Maybe not actually. I mean really bad. But so it really is about like understanding them and then you can make intelligent decisions because you got to think of like if you're in a, if you're coordinating them, it is a form of a pastoral role. That's not always fun. Like sometimes you got to like help people grow. And so motivation is different than like excellence, right? So like motivating volunteers, if they're not motivated, if they volunteer and they're showing up and they're unmotivated, then it's probably a culture thing that you've got to go, hey, where are we missing it? That we've got people signing up, are they just obligated and da, da, da, da? Or are we selling them? Are we selling this thing the wrong way? Like, are we, here's what I'm imagining I'm saying, but maybe they're hearing it this way. So how can we reframe this to tap into why they're here? And I think the big capital W wins. Like, what is your church's priority this year? We want to save souls. All right, team, we are trying to save souls. How do we get people to react to this graphic and they go, I'm coming to that thing? Their soul is the priority. That's the win. Not, hey, show up and complete it on time. Because they'll show up and complete it on time if they care about the cause.  And I think even coming from, because I, in a way, was a volunteer. I started as an intern. And then paid intern. Yeah. And I'm called church internships. And something that Joel does so well is that vision casting. Like, he literally convinced me to be a graphic designer. Like, I had just, I had never opened Illustrator. I didn't know how to do a new project, anything. I was like, music person. I was like, this is what I'm going to do. And he's like, hey, you draw, right? I was like, yeah, he's like, I want you to intern. And I hated it at first. So I quit and I did it again. And so, but, but what he did so well was saying, hey, like, this is something that I see that the Lord's doing in you. I obviously am not paying you. I don't have all of this, but here's what I see. And here's the future of what radiance is going to. And here's why this is important. And here's why I feel like you have a part in this. And so having that from me, it wasn't really at the end of the day for a paycheck, which money is nice. And I wanted it, but at the same time, like it was, it was like, man, okay, how do I, it's that same stuff with like, man, like let's make something that people are going to actually encounter the heart of the father with. And so that value system for me made it so much more important than just showing up and making a graphic or making stuff for kids' ministry or whatever. Because that's not like the height of your career, like making a diaper bag card thing. Like that's not like, I really want to do this, please. But like it's, it's a thing of like, man, like when people walk in, even for chain art, like even when people are walking in and they're seeing all the little tiny details and it's a bunch of creatives and they're seeing those like little things that we do really well with excellence. Everything's on brand. There's that value system that's there and it made me want to do it. It tells you that we care. That's the thing. Motivate a lot of people, why do you need this to be so excellent? Isn't this good enough? And good enough is like, it's just the enemy of excellence, right? Like there's a lot of things that are good enough, but good enough for what? Like what does that even mean? What does that mean? Who is this good enough for? People who don't care? Because if we want people to be invested in care, then it's got to be good enough for, for that. And so I think one of the things where it's like when it's, you know, because I, man, you guys are here and you're seeing some like external things that are fun and cool and facing outward, but there's a lot of tasks that go into everything. It's a lot of work. There's a lot of time that is spent going like, I've got to do this drop card for this thing. It's not exciting at all. I have to have, it has to look good and I have to have all this information on it. You know, like, and, and so that's, but, but when you're tapped into that bigger purpose, like the reason this needs to be awesome is because when that parent picks up that drop card about camp and it catches their eye and they go, if they care this much about this drop card and this camp must be awesome. If they care this much about this Easter invitation or this landing page or their social media feed, I look at social media, no, there's different ways to use it. I'm not going to go, this is not a social media workshop. And if you're doing one, let me know. We're still trying to figure crap out. But if you go to our Instagram group right now and you look at everything, I look at that as like, this is a highway. And these are our billboards and people are going to judge in a blink of an eye if we take them seriously. If I take you seriously means I'm putting my best work out there. And a lot of people think quantity is like, oh my gosh, how much social media they have, you know, and they hire or they have an intern going like, I want you to go follow every account and like all their stuff. So they'll follow us. And it's like, it's all bait and switch tactics. It's not real engagement. It's not really communicating anything. So how can I use this medium and whether it's your social media feed or whether that's your screens in your lobby or whether it's your newsletter and an email or whatever it is. Can I craft it in a way that I'm being so thoughtful about your experience and about what your eyes are seeing that, you know, it is unspoken communication. It's the little things. It's like, you know, you can, you can read music on a piece of paper, like you can read lyrics, but not feel that music, right? Like I can hear your words, but I don't feel it and art and design and these things have the opportunity to make you feel the value behind the thing that we're trying to get you to connect with or get you to go to or whatever that is. Does that make sense? So maybe it's just tapping people into that and going like, Hey, why are you here? I'm here because you guys need volunteers. That's a bad reason because now I'm just going to disappoint you because there's nothing in it for you. But what can be in it for you is eternal treasure. And if you're like, if you make a drop card and that person at three months later and you're on vacation, even though it happens and they invite the person to the Easter service, that person gets saved, that goes on your ledger. That's you. And you did it with love and intention and care. And that may have been the difference maker. You know, it really may have. So there you go. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. Put you on the spot. Go ahead. Start over. So you guys have been assigned a project that maybe you're not passionate about and like art comes out of passion most of the time, right? You have no interest in this project. What do you do? Like you're responsible for it? I've got an answer. If you guys want to think for a minute, I want to hear these guys because they're curious what they think. I, I, um, what? Purpose is more important than passion. So I'm connected to the purpose of our mission as a church. So I care about all of it. Now my problem is that's to choose to not care about certain things because I just kind of, you know what, I got to let someone own this because if I try to care about everything, I'm going to like burn out hard and fast. But it doesn't mean I don't expect good things, but when I'm not passionate about it, I know the passion comes and goes. Like passion comes and goes. Like there's projects that like this should be so cool.   And maybe I'm just like eight bad pizza last night. You know, like the passion's not here, but my purpose is and purpose and maturity over time trump passion. So that would be, that's how I handle it. How do you guys handle it? Yeah. I think kind of what we've been talking about through this, through the whole panel is that kingdom vision for me is really what drives me when I have a project that I'm not super passionate about, especially just going to take a lot of my time. I do a lot of print work. I do a lot of like editorial work and stuff like that. And that takes large chunks of time. And so when I'm really not feeling the passion of tight manual, when it gets into the details and the nitty gritty of, you know, is there an orphan or a widow hanging under this paragraph and shouldn't be justified and what will look the best. I really have to just kind of remember an orphan and a widow is just so we're clear. Not an actual orphan or a widow. Yeah, I have to really remind myself of that kingdom vision. And sometimes it really helps me to because sometimes I get, I get sort of a blindness. I feel like a lot of us have, it probably experienced this where you work on something for so long and you're just like, oh man, I can't even see straight. I can't see if this thing is felt right or not. I've been working on this for so long. It's so helpful to bring other people into the process for me. Jake and I collaborate all the time. I will have pretty much everybody on the team look at whatever I'm doing at different parts, at different stages in the project, which is super, super helpful. And a lot of times that they will come with encouragement and be like, hey, this looks great. And a lot of times that's the wind that I need beneath my sails to carry me to the end. Because I've been in bookland or magazine land or something for so long that I can't even, I don't even know what I'm looking at and I hate it. But we can't lift each other past that in that way unless there is that vulnerability and trust. So that's where it all comes in. I mean, it's really a cycle. Yeah. And I feel like you have to practice it too. You have to make a kind of habit to be like, really, I know I'm reaching a point where I need to stop and I need to bring somebody in. I feel like the longer you do stuff like that, like Joel was saying, the more you can recognize that in yourself, where you're like, I know I can feel that I'm now passionate or I've lost passion for this project. It's taking a long time. There are a lot of revisions, that kind of thing. I need to bring someone in. I need somebody else's eyes. I need some new ideas. I need to take an hour break and go get some inspiration wherever I find it, whether that's looking through people that inspire me on Instagram, looking on the internet, looking at home decor, like curated spaces, that kind of thing, switching where I am. Maybe I need to go work from home or something like that. I pretty much have like a bank of things that I pull out if I'm really stalled or if I'm not feeling super passionate. Elena, how do you feel?  And like, how do you stay engaged when it feels monotonous? Yeah, I think some things that I've done here, like, I guess there's like two things. So like, one way to feel like it's an opportunity to really practice finesse on the thing. So if it's something that you've done a thousand times or whatever, or something that you haven't done, but you think it's really boring, then maybe just say, all right, I'm going to do this with zero mistakes, it's going to be impeccably organized, it's going to just be this beautiful finessed fine thing. And then whether or not you like it, you can be very proud of what you've created. And then another thing is something that one of my managers did at an old job that I had really well, was at my old job, I would just do talking head videos for 40 hours a week. Like all I edited was talking head videos. And it was so boring. Like, it was, I was like, great at it, but it wasn't fun for a while. And so then there would be times where my manager would see that I was just like, dead doing this thing. Guys, I have to slip up because I'm teaching another workshop in five minutes, but I'll let you guys wrap it up and then they can hang out and answer questions or whatever. But you all went amazing. Thank you so much. Sorry. And he would just be like, all right, let's try to do this. Come at it with a completely different point of view, not point of view, but just a different style that you've ever used before. And so like, I was never into motion graphics lab, but he said, hey, take an extra five hours on this project and do a lot of after effects things and import that into the project and play with that. So you could do it the same way you've done it every time. But if that's going to make you miserable, then do it a different way this time or use a totally different color scheme or light it completely differently this time just so that you're giving yourself something to play with even though you've done it a million times. And I think with that, too, like part of being creative is not just about making cool art. Like you have an ability to be creative in what wakes your heart up. And so if I get to operate on a level that no other creatives get to, which is operating in the Holy Spirit, I'm asking the Lord like, okay, if you're doing copy or a video that you don't want to do, like part of that being able to operate in the Lord and what he's doing is we get to be creative on what wakes us up to why we're doing it. And so man, like if Anna is going to do like a copy piece or whatever, she's going to be thinking of creative ways of a new way that she can do the same thing that she's done a million times. And a lot of the times like that's when like that kind of delight thing is kind of stewarded really well. And doing those things and like the little things. I think that's what's so cool about what we're doing what we're all kind of a part of is like we aren't just designers making design for design's sake like we're doing it to actually for a purpose and we're doing it with someone else like we're doing it with the Holy Spirit. And so kind of even asking the Lord like man like what's like what's another way I can do this like what's another creative way I can do this or think about this or yeah hopefully that makes sense but yeah.


As a mom, I want everything for my kids, but most importantly, I try to keep them safe from this hectic world. So I try to teach them everything I can. Now Johnny, what do we do when we see terrorists?   At the end of the day, I just want to protect my kids, even when I'm not around. So that's why I started Trigger Happiness. Our mission is simple. Give your kids guns. Shoot the pagans! Good boy! Now that my kids have guns, I never have to worry about them being safe.  Oh yeah? Yeah! Yeah, well who needs the ABC's when you've got the NRA, motherfucker? Boom! With guns, your kids can stay safe both at home and in school. Just listen to this rave review from my son's teacher. I'm worried about Johnny, he keeps loading and unloading guns.  I know that I'm the best mom that I can be, because my kids are always protected. Mom, we're gonna go play outside with guns! What? Fun. What can I say?  So join Trigger Happiness, because what else will save them? Mom? Kids will be kids. I like to bear arms. Those were his first words. Trigger Happiness, the only logical conclusion.


Well, pleased to see you. You too. I'll tell you the thing we're doing in Italy at this moment, and in America, with the Council for Relations between the United States and Italy, which is a private body, composed of 25 members each side, 25 Americans, 25 Italians, and a new chairman of the Italian side. I think for the same thing you are working at, keeping Europe and all this very important for our children too. Yes, it is. Well, I'm... for what you're doing. Thank you, sir. There's a set of kinds of use. So you won't forget us? I wouldn't anyway. I'm pleased to see you. Thank you, sir. It was a great pleasure. Thank you. Do you guys see the mirror? She said that. She said that. She didn't shut it. How do we get with it? When you're not a people, how do you put your finger in there and the other two fingers in front of you? Well, this was there for the embarrassedest by town, town, and tithes, when having cliffhangers. Speaking of which, you can't get it to be made that way, can you? Who waved at you? New York, the street yesterday. Somebody was just so obvious, real. There's wave, you know, and that kind. I only spot the one fellow that's got his thumb down, I think. But this one was different. She liked that one. Thank you for this opportunity for us to be here. Today with your permission, I'd like to accomplish six things. First, I'd like to briefly describe the progress that has been made in reading some of your specific goals in office. Second, I'd like to discuss the budget deficit and briefly analyze sources. Third, I'd like to describe our best assessment of anticipated revenues, extremely pure, and the resulting deficit. Fourth, I'd like to compare this deficit path with that incorporated in grant revenue. Fifth, I'd like to break out the budget by major category to identify areas for spending decreases. Finally, I'd like to give you a brief preview of how we suggest the cuts. On Monday, Mr. President, with your permission, I'd like to present the budget in some detail. I plan to focus on agency submissions and our efforts to lower total spending to meet the $144 billion deficit figure in grant budget on Olex without counter-quoting.


Well, my name is Nicole Gochevsky. I'm here with my co-presenter, Mario Matias. We're here to talk about instrumenting applications that are written in various dynamically managed runtimes rather than static group pile binaries. And some of the challenges we've experienced working with these programming languages and applications. I'll do the introduction sort of a little bit first, and then Mario Matias will continue, and then I'll come back after. So this is going to be a really much low level talk. Maybe too deep for some of the audience here. Apologies for that in advance, but it's kind of hard to make a talk where it goes both high level and low level. So we'll talk about managed runtimes, the stuff they do, garbage collections. And we saw a lot of this stuff actually mentioned before by Val and Data Talk. We're going to talk about threading models, how they impact us, and two different technologies. So what's stuff that we've looked into go, how we actually instrument go applications, some of the challenges there, and then switch over to what I call depth march from, I guess, gaming reference into Java. Mario, take it away. OK, thank you, Nicola. To set the context of this talk, we are auto instrumenting, or we want to auto instrument applications using eBPF. So for a giving web application, we want to get metrics and traces of the different service communications with CELOTouch. How do we do it? We have developed and released a product named Grafana Bela, which is deployed in the same host as your instrumented application. And using eBPF, it is able to hook into the application runtime and libraries, as well as the Linux kernel, in order to get events and extract information from those events. And send those metrics and traces to Grafana, of course. But if not, we provide standard Prometheus and open telemetry interfaces to send it to any other collector of your preference. The way to instrument binaries, or the tools we have, we can instrument the kernel code with K-probes. But to instrument the user space binaries, we might use U-probes and URED-probes, which are mechanisms provided by the Linux kernel, or user-statically defined trace points. With U-probes and URED-probes, we know when a function starts and a function ends, and then we can get these parameters information. From Bela, currently, we only use U-probes and URED-probes as the user-statically defined trace points are typically uncommon. Open JDK use them, but are not built by default. So this is an example of U-probes. Of the code we need to attach into this example to a library in order to get when a function starts. This is only the skeleton. This doesn't do anything else but getting the information we need. So since we need to know when a function starts and ends, we need to attach a U-probe and a URED-probe that will be executed. The U-probe will give us some information, like, for example, the buffer. This is the live SSL3, the SSLRIP information. This way, we can know when SSL data is being read. We can get the parameters, like, for example, the buffer or the size. And in the URED-probe, we might know or we can know the return code. Those events are executed independently from a program site. So those programs are stateless. We cannot store. I mean, in main memory, we need to store the data from the invocation to the end. It needs to be stored in BPF maps, which are special data structures that run in the kernel. And also, we need to take into account that even if the URED-probe is executed after the U-probe, that doesn't mean that always after a U-probe is executed immediately after comes a URED-probe because this SSLRIP function might be invoked multiple times in parallel from different threads. So when we store the data of the U-probe and we want later in the URED-probe to know the information, we need to relate each code or each start, which is end. For that case, we have a helper function that gets the current PID and thread group ID. This way, we can use this as a map key in order to know or to store the arguments when the U-probe starts and to retrieve them when the U-probe ends. That way, we can relate each invocation with each return. Also, we are doing some assumptions. Here, it's a relatively simple example because live SSL is written in C. It's written in an unmanaged language, in an unmanaged runtime. So we can do some assumptions, like, for example, the buffer we are reading, the buffer with SSL contents, doesn't change the address of that buffer. The buffer might change. But the address of that buffer is the same when the function starts and when the function ends. This is not always the case in other languages from manager runtimes. We still need to take some caution because we are assuming here that this library will have always the same structure. But libraries have versions. APIs might change, especially private APIs. That could mean that if a user updates the library, and it's API, it can introduce some changes in the code. At the kernel side, there is a mechanism named btf and core compilons run everywhere, which allows that the code written for the kernel keeps track of, for example, the different offsets and arguments for the different versions of the kernel API. But that doesn't exist for U-probes. For example, imagine we have this FULIP 13.1, and it has a struct. And we want to get information from this struct. From the evpf side, we cannot see this struct as a name of a type and a field name, but we need to see this struct as a set of offsets. If we want to access, for example, the bytes, we know that for this FULIP version, it will be in the beginning of these flow metrics, variable plus flow bytes. And that's the way we need to access the information of the structs. But what happens if for our deployed code, the user updates to a new version, and this new version adds, for example, a new field in between. If we were accessing the error number, Erno field, and they add a flux in that place, we will immediately access part of the flux field and the Erno will be in another place. So we need to take care about that. We can use the book information. So if you have the debug information, if you are executable, you can get those offsets. But if many people strip the book information just to reduce the size of their binaries. So in that case, we need to maintain a database, a local database with all the structs of all the fields we access for all the different versions of the libraries we access.  Because those managed runtimes provide garbage collection that might mean that an object might change its location during the life of the program. Also, we can get managed stacks. We will see that later. Even managed threads like virtual threads which are not running at the operating system level but run at the application level managed by the runtime. So our EVPF code needs to make use of that. Another, also other aspects like linking or calling conventions that can change not only from one language to another, but from one compiler to another or from one completion mode to another. In, for garbage collection in Go, fortunately we don't have so many problems at the moment because that this garbage collection algorithm could change in our future because Go, when passes the garbage collector doesn't compact memory. That means that if your data is alive after a garbage collection, the data will be in the same position. So we can be, we can know safely that our pointers will be still valid. We have us in Go.  It happens that when this stack grows too much, Go just grows the stack and might relocate it. That means that the frame pointer, the written code could change completely its location since you initially start the stack at the beginning of a function and you are trying to retrieve that stack from a wrong location at the end of a function. So what we do for that is that instead of using Uprobes, we need to, Uread Probes, we need to use Uprobes always. This is to know when a function ends, we need to parse the binary code of a program, look for return instructions and then attach their Uprobes on each read instruction. That way we might know when a function ends without letting our program to crash that it is what was happening before. Also with managed threads, there's Go routines run on top of build operating system threads but multiple Go routines runs on a smaller set of threads. So in order to correlate a function start and a function end, we cannot know, or we don't know, we cannot relate them by thread ID. Fortunately, we can know the current Go routine, which in Go is always defined in a standard register. So accessing that register, we might use the Go routine pointer instead of the thread ID. This is valid for Go 117 in advance. This is something that might change in the future, the same way change from Go 116 to from 117 from 116. Also, we need to be careful with these linkage and calling conventions. For example, from Go 116 to 17, the function calling conventions changes, all the code was broken. So all the auto instrument at the time needed to change and support both. Also for the register calling convention, it's not the same and the system VAP-AVI, so it will differ in Go then from other languages. And EVPF probes are also sensible to linker options that you need to detect at runtime and support. This is an example of how we do this skeleton of your probes in Go. Instead of getting the thread ID, you need to get the Go routine address. This Go routine pointer is a macro. We used to get this Go routine address and use it as key of the map. And also, the arguments instead of being set as argument of the U-probe, you need to know internally how is the calling convention in order to get it from well-known registers. And also, instead of U-read probes, for example, for this function, server handler stream, you need to set another U-probe. This is done dynamically inspecting the binary code. There are some other corner cases that, as we say, that the hit memory reference don't move, but the stacks might move. So make sure your pointers are always valid. Pointers to hit might, we know that might be or are valid, but for example, pointers to the stack might not be valid during the whole life cycle of your functions. So you need to take that into consideration always because also because Go performs escape analysis. So when you think even if you are allocating something in the heap, Go compiler internally might know or might demonstrate that this is not, or this can be allocated safely in the stack and then it will allocate that in the stack. So you cannot do so many assumptions. You need to inspect your instrumentation targets in order to make sure your values are safe. And now, Nicola, we'll go to that. Go was the relatively simple case. Now the death match is Java. Yeah, so I wanna say to the previous implementation for Go, I wanna see a contrast of what it is to look like for Java and how is Java different if we want it to go there? And some of this applies to .NET and other similar technologies, but we'll stack for Java. So the first thing about Java is that there's different implementations and some of those implementations are completely rewrites and don't use the same technologies. So for this purpose of the top, we'll stick with OpenJDK, which is the most commonly used Java, JVM. Now, the important thing here is about garbage collection. We said we go, references don't move. In Java, they always move because all the garbage collectors the Java have move references around, the copy and so on. Which means the stuff that we did before where we kind of remembered in a map a certain reference to a pointer that we're gonna use later, we can't do that. So to demonstrate a simple picture that we had before, even the simplest garbage collector in Java will do this additional step at the end, not always, but occasionally. So it will compact the memory to reduce the fragmentation of the heap, to speed up the heap allocations within a life cycle. Go with chosen not to do that because according to their talk, they won't micro-sake and stop the world latency so they don't do that part. Now, managed stacks over here, typically they don't exist in Java. Like you get this stack max that you can change via the command line. But with the introduction of virtual threads they do exact same thing as go-routines. So if virtual threads become a thing in the future and people use them more often, then we have the same problem as with go-routines which means you read probes will not work. Now, fortunately there's a dedicated thread register in the code similar to go that we can use to make keys but then the question is what can we store those keys? Similar to go, the linkage convention is not, doesn't match system five API. Now, we can start with what we thought about a solution so we could instrument applications or use some level of instrumentation for Java. Well, we can use the Uprobs only. And then we can't remember references because we have to assume that at some point everything will move. If we need to read data from the heap that needs to happen always on enter of the function or if you're lucky then something gets returned at the end of the return of the function then you can safely read that return value. And since the go-runt, actually the Java runtime will recompile methods. We need to maybe instrument more than one method that we like. And of course just like in go, we can adapt our linkage. So I mentioned here is Uprobs and but what can actually be Uprobs actually used for? So we can only instrument the JIT compile methods. So Java JVM started interpreting the code initially and then later on they compiled with one compiler in OpenJTK case called C1 then later on they compile it with another compiler the same method called C2 and the C2 can recompile multiple times. So that actually would be difficult to deal with because which means we have to somehow when they're generated on the fly there's no binary to inspect and this binary actually changes over time. So the other kind of problem is that's not the only problem. The other problem is that inlining is very much unstable. So if you run the program once you will get one set of actual binary compiled methods. You run it another time you may get slightly different or completely different set. Why? Because the JVM actually uses a lot of runtime profiling information to guide the inliner to produce more optimal code. So because of that you cannot be guaranteed that there will be the same methods that you saw last time. Which means if you're targeting instrumentation of a specific functionality of the application you may need to instrument more than one method because inlining may be different between the stable state that you expect to have. So the other thing that's sort of nasty about Java is that the JVM itself does a lot of code patching. So it would make assumptions about the method it's compiling. Let's say you have multiple classes extending the same method, same virtual method and at the beginning where the JIT compiler compiled this method there was only one implementation of this. But later on when you run the program some new class gets loaded and this actual assumption gets invalidated. So the JVM runtime will patch all the places where this sort of assumption was being made. Which means approach of disassembling and looking for return instructions may not always work. Why? Because the patch code may not actually disassemble really well. And then temporarily use any, lose any context for the disassemblers who may get gibberish or garbage and not actually find the right return instruction. So attaching a return of a function can be dicey. Not always compatible. So the question on this side is do we find these Java symbols? I'm gonna skip to the second point before I go to the first one where in the case of Gral VM native which is also popular in Sunspaces this is pretty simple. Because there is a binary, it's compiled one way and it's always that same binary. So those are good. Now how do we compile, how do we catch the compiled methods? Well there's two problems. First is like you can catch the compiled methods as they come. And one way to do it is to attach a Upro on register end method which is a function in OpenGDK. It's called every time the compiler wants to commit a new method in the code cache. So in this case you can attach a Uprobe, send that event over to the user space of the eBPF program and then drop the previous Uprobe on that method, attach a new one to the new address and keep doing that as the methods get recompiled all the time. There's one problem with that. You don't see all the methods so it depends when you first started running your eBPF program. What about the stuff that was compiled before you started monitoring the calls to end method? So one possibility is that, well maybe you can dump the list of methods that existed before you went through and there's programs for that like the JLM provides JCMD. Fortunately when they made the decision to disable dynamic agent loading they didn't disable some of these interfaces so this is still possible to do with JCMD.  And if you can control the Java command line then actually things become a lot simpler. If your application is running in a mode where you actually also deploy the eBPF program and run the Java program then we stand a better chance. There's command line options in the JVM command line that you can actually for one thing get the list of compiled methods that are already out there without attaching to the JVM but you can also maybe even control the inlining to say maybe stabilize around this one methods or a couple of methods that I'm really interested in actually instrumenting. So that's about it about Java. Now a further step than that we thought about is like well there's some languages and runtimes that are impossible. So interpreted, just put all byte codes that run inside with some interpretation engine that is written in another programming language or maybe the same programming language but nonetheless there's no symbols or that you can particularly attach to. So example like Python running in interpret mode. There's also partially compiled methods. Java does this for example. If you had a method that you called once and it was an endless loop where the JVM will do there is actually we'll start interpreting it then later on there's code that will detect that this is really hot method perhaps and the Java will do on stack replacement replace the remainder of the method until the point where it was actually stuck in that endless loop where the binary compiled to the method. Now you lost your chance to actually instrument the beginning of that particular function. So nothing we can do there. There's also trace compilers. Trace compilers don't compile based on method or function boundaries. They just compile whatever the interpreter tells them that is hot path and they see it as a stream of some intermediate language byte code or whatever it is and they turn it into native code. Fortunately for us, like depending on the runtime where instrumenting there might be ways that we can instrument some parts of those managed runtimes. Like if they use a lot of native calls like Python does or Node.js or Ruby then maybe you can instrument those parts but not the interpreter's side. So we'll be implementing so far. No project is that we've done the Go support that's released. We care mostly about open telemetry observability so we sort of stay away from Java.net and those guys because we think that those agents actually by open telemetry are pretty good so they do a lot of stuff that customers take a use of. Our primary interest in Java.net has been around native binaries where you cannot dynamically load agents and do auto instrumentation and fortunately for us those actually do come with symbols that actually don't change or recompile on the fly. And in future work is that we'll probably add more user level instrumentation for other languages and managed runtimes. And overall I think also one thing that people sort of miss is that EVPF is also great for getting information by the runtime itself. So attaching new probes to the JVN runtime you can get a lot of information like calculating GC times or in the Go case maybe even counting a number of Go routines or how much in Node.js the events are stuck on the event loop because those actually parts of the managed runtimes do have symbols it's actually easy to apply EVPF to get some of them. So to summarize I think there's some level of EVPF instrumentation that we can do for managed runtimes. Some managed runtimes are much easier to deal with than others. And some managed runtimes are most impossible to do. I think that typical approaches for dealing for EVPF instrumentation of static compile languages can be adapted to some extent and successfully be applied for managed runtimes but not always everything has a limitation in this role. But just like it does in static compile languages if the symbol if a particular met function that you want an instrument is inlined in every possibility or in the case where you care about well tough luck, right? So limitations exist in instrumenting static binaries as well. Thank you. That's it. You can find us on there so please relax.


So we're here with the easy technique and who are you? Well, I'm the president of the easy technique company and you have a smartwatch You're sitting right now. This is how it looks like and So it's running the MediaTek 2502 CPU and it's the same you have right here. Yes so So running some embedded Linux can you change the styles? And it can connect to iPhone and Android. Yes. How long is the battery life? Well, the two will be last year's 72 hours 72 hours. Yes. Yeah, but not with the screen on all the time No, oh well, the screen can go on when you use. Yeah. Yes every time you lift. Yes power on the screen, right? Yeah, all right for a normal delay use it can be three days. So where do you sell this? Probably through internet People can buy now on the website. Where are you based? In Shandong Shandong. Yeah Shandong in China. Shandong province. And so is this the Is this the the brand? Yeah, easy smartwatch. Easy. And people can buy from all over the world. Yes I think so. They have different colors. And how about for distributor you make a discount. Oh, sure We have to order M.O.Q. Yeah, 300. 300 pieces. 300 pieces So when it's metallic like this it's more expensive. Yeah, how much is it in US dollar? 78 78 dollars wholesale and this is the same This is 78 stainless press it, but then the smaller like this is more plastic is 62 right and This one is also 58 it's less it's okay It's right here So do you sell already many every month? We're all about two thousand or five thousand right from two thousand to five thousand and Christmas is gonna be very busy I I hope so