We're live now. Right. Yes. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, um, so government operations on April. I don't even know what day it is for 17. And I think it's Friday. Okay. So what we're going to look at today is commissioner Sherling has agreed to give us a little update on issues. Anything he wants to tell us actually. So we'll go to the commissioner first and hear from him and if we have any questions. So, okay. Commissioner, thank you for joining us and thank you for offering to give us an update. Good afternoon. Thanks for having me. And as I said earlier in the week, it's, it's great to see the Senate fully functional using technology. I'll, I'll, I sent along a few documents or Karen sent them for me earlier today that give you a snapshot of some of the activities that various divisions of public safety have been involved in over the last few weeks, including the state police fire safety. But well, we didn't ask emergency management to give a snapshot. We sent along a couple of representative samples of work in the form of situation reports from the daily activities. As you know, the emergency operation center has been in full activation since March 11 at about 730 in the morning. We're now running the EOC virtually. We believe it's the only completely virtual EOC operation in the country, although we don't, we can't completely verify that. That seems to be the case from the conversations that directors had with with other managers. The snapshot of sort of top of mind activities right now, which have pivoted quite a bit over the last five weeks, which are a bit of a blur at the top of the list of things that public safety is providing support to across the array of state government and with the assistance of folks not only in state government but the guard businesses, nonprofits and a host of others a cast of thousands really. We're working to provide additional meal support starting next week for the Vermont food bank as their capacity has been outstripped. We're continuing to work on build out of delivery and supply chain for personal protective equipment for a wide swath of users beyond the typical distribution network that would be in place for sort of a standard emergency, not one of this size and type. We're providing surge site support to the agency of human services. We're providing support and leadership on data and modeling of a variety of things ranging from the virus outbreaks and itself to our ability to continue to deliver services personal protective equipment ventilator capacity, etc. We're doing direct sourcing with partners from the UVM health network buildings and general services and a variety of Vermont businesses source key components of supply chain from PPE to ventilators to other resources thermometers. And we are now actively involved as the pivot point between the agency of commerce and the Department of Health on the restart strategy to balance the business needs with the health overlay and the data driven approaches that the the governor has used and will continue to use as a decision making set of decision making points going forward. That's the, the, the nutshell version of what's going on it's a little difficult if not impossible to describe the operational tempo that's been in place now for what seems like nine months but I gather is only five weeks. So I'll leave it there and open it to questions that might be more illuminating than my Drowning on any questions. I can. Matt, yes, yes, Allison. Hi, Michael. I guess I given the concerns that other law enforcement communities around the country have faced in terms of coven among their ranks, you have yet to see that happen in this state right. That is correct. We've had a couple of positives in law enforcement and first response in general. And we've had a few folks under monitoring, but I think that our proactive postures that we took very early on in creating models for alternative delivery strategies. We monitor the health of the state police workforce on a day to day basis. All of those things have come together in a, in a pretty positive way to ensure that we haven't seen the types of infections that some other folks have seen and that of course goes part and parcel with Vermonters paying attention to the guidance the guidance statewide being issued at the right point in the curve and the overall mitigation strategies that knock on wood appear to have have worked reasonably well to this point. And as you monitor local law enforcement is that true for the police departments around the state that you are aware of. Yeah, we ask the Colonel can speak a little more to this the Vermont intelligence center sends a daily brief to law enforcement and and then by extension the fire service on coven activities and one of the things that's at the top of that message that goes each day is a request for folks to report any illnesses so we can map out outbreaks in similar fashion to what we do with at risk populations with corrections and nursing facilities and things like that and the reason being that we don't want our first responders to be inadvertently vectoring disease into the community. Right that that's part of why I asked great terrific thanks. Anthony. You folks are doing a good job so don't take this question wrongly. I just wonder whether there's any lessons to be learned like if things have you had issues around supplies or staffing I'm just I'm not not criticizing what you're doing I'm just wondering about whether there were obstacles that you found in the way. Oh there's a innumerable obstacle senator and there's innumerable things we probably do differently three weeks ago knowing what we know now. I started describing us a few days ago as this whole event seems like a thousand foot foot jigsaw puzzle that someone dropped onto a lawn. And you had to spend a couple weeks finding the pieces and then you had to spend a couple of weeks finding the edges and putting them together and now we're just getting to the point where we can fill in the middle. You know among the top challenges have been really a need to re engineer all of our emergency response methodology on the fly, because even the best modeling of pandemic response bore little or no resemblance to what we have had to do in the last five weeks but even before that as we started to gear up for this. There was just no one on the planet ever contemplated that the entire planet would be affected at the same time. So there's no ability for anyone to back up anyone else under the circumstances and that's a typical way that emergency response works particularly in that United States is with some kind of mutual aid in Vermont not only from other states but from other countries we're used to being able to call on Canada to bring resources to us. When we're in need and vice versa and we're unable to do that now. The other major logistical challenge has to do with supply lines and the fact that our, all of the critical supplies we need are manufactured in Asia. And I think the country is going to learn a hard lesson that we've got to figure out a way to be able to supply ourselves in times of crisis. But there'll be, there'll be months of after action planning that goes on and debriefing that goes on to sort of map out what we have learned and what we can learn from from everything that's unfolded for the last two months and beyond. I appreciate what you're doing. Anthony, I did you want to follow up and I just said I appreciate what they're doing. So I, I know one of the things that and I keep attributing it to Susanna but a lot of people are saying it now we should be able to learn lessons from what we're doing now with what we might do differently, not just in an emergency, but in our regular day to day situations and policies and procedures and so I hope that we're kind of keeping track of the changes that we've made in response to this that we might want to think about making permanent changes to the way we to the way we operate. Absolutely right Senator state government and, and the American people have been forced to do things in different ways that they have not previously embraced. And many of these things we can continue to use as tools that that will be positive beyond the crisis just I attended a fire safety directors meeting. I didn't even know when it was maybe it was last week. And they observed that a meeting that would typically encumber them largely for the day because they'd have to drive from all over Vermont to get to it. They're able to accomplish in 90 minutes and then get right back to work. So, whether it's little things like that, or big things like the changes that the Labor Department is making to the way unemployment claims ultimately will be processed with new technology. They're working really hard. The back end of all of this, there will be things that that work better as a result of the experience. Allison.  And needless to say, social distancing was impossible. I am a little concerned about, I mean, sadly, now having to self isolate again for for at least a week and he has a job that is really challenging to be self isolating. Is there any work that's being done to to make it. I mean, our first responders and ambulances it's a little easier to be, you know, have equipment that works. When they're responding. Is there any work being done for the firefighters to make that safer for them to actually do the right thing and support their fire departments but also not be professional, you know just be supervised for the next two weeks. Well on the front end of that I know guidance has gone out to all first responders about the sort of the best response posture which is to minimize the number of people you have on a crew or responding to a particular emergency in the case of a large structure fire there's not a lot of a lot of options there. On the positive side with a fire response that the layers of gear that are available with Scott air packs and face shields and things are sort of endemic to the way that they respond so hopefully it. I guess I would, I would suggest that the fire chief just check in with health and see what is prescribed in terms of isolation at this point my senses that they're equipped as I imagine they were fighting a structure fire that there may not actually be a prescription for isolation. Thanks, I'll check with him. So, I know that this isn't part of the response necessarily but is the SEOC working at all, or aware of kind of what's going on at Cobley around the, the experiments they're doing. They're aware, they're in closer contact with the epidemiology team through the Department of Health Dr Kelso and her folks. And I know that it's the the the serology testing I guess I should verify that that's what you're talking about. Yeah. I know Dr Levine indicated that he thinks that their approach is is the right one in terms of using it as sort of a test bed, but not relying on it as not over relying on it as a as a pointer to what the disease profile might look like right now so we have Vermont specific efforts going on around different testing that we hope will help us be able to paint a better picture of this viruses behavior so we can chart a more lucid course over the next several months. So I yesterday we talked we heard about, or the other day we heard about funding for EMS systems and Erica born and what is is the conduit the funnel for through emergency management is she also the person that they should be addressing around the cares, it would all EMS funding go through Erica, or how would that work. I don't know what the conduit necessarily for cares is is going to be but if if you send me a note I will find out the the right sort of channel or order of operation on that. I know that Adam Grisham is probably kind of overseeing all of it but I just. We don't want to over overburden anybody if they're better, better channels for them to use. If you send it to me I'll find the right home, whether that's with the director or for elsewhere. Okay. Any other questions for the commissioner. Alison, did you have a, did you have your hand up or was that just a thank you Michael, we're just all very grateful. Thank you and thank all of your constituents for doing their part to making sure that to getting us to this point with the curve bent in the manner that it appears to be so look forward to seeing you again soon. So I will tell you, Commissioner that I've heard from some law enforcement people around the, perhaps speeding up the certification for level threes and just some issues around the, the Academy and the training council and some of our mandated training that they move it we mandated that they have to receive. So I did look at that on Tuesday I believe and you'll get an invite but just so that you know not necessarily that you will have to come. I just wanted you to know that. Great. If I'll certainly try to be there, but we'll certainly have someone from public safety and state police there to to help with that conversation.  So good thing it wasn't yesterday. Yesterday, I was a little exhausted. I don't know about chipper but I'm confident that in the skill level and dedication of the folks that are working on this and that we've been lucky in Vermont to have the right people. And I think had the right balance so far. I'm sure there have been things we've made mistakes on over the last five weeks and and will in the next few. But hopefully those are minimal. So if I if I seem like I'm upbeat it's because of of that and because frankly three weeks ago we were looking at projections that were quite scary and at this point we've got things in a good place we just have to keep them there for the long term. That's the key. Well, take good care of yourself. I have shared this with senators but just a little note about cabin fever that we're all suffering. Yesterday I made a call to my ex roommate up there and when the and the phone and was answered by a woman I said, Hi, this is your ex roommate and I miss you so much and I'm so sorry and I just went on and on. And said, Who is this. And I said, Oh, is this not clear that I dial wrong. And she said, Yes, I said I'm so sorry and she said, That's okay you have a pleasant voice do you want to stay in chat for a while. So I think we're all. So, I think that we all need to have that human contact and she clearly had been cooped up for too long by herself. That's a great story Senator I'm certainly not lacking human contact it's all electronic. Yeah, tired as I talk from 5am until 8pm every day. Well she was just a regular person she wasn't involved in trying to solve these issues so anyway thank you very much for what you do. Thank you. Have a great day. Bye. Did we have. Okay, sorry, sorry about that. Why don't we have Lafayette on for this discussion but I think that she is not with us right. No she's not. I think that she is we want her when we do the communities at risk the conversation because she represents both the disability community and the low income advocacy council. So, and then we have Betsy and Rask listed under this discussion Betsy and did you have anything that we need to address here. Okay Madam chair now just listening in today on today's discussion. Okay. All right. So let's just move to the next one then which is the posting of notices and agendas and minutes. And when would you like to to bring us up to date on that. And this is Gwen Zach of VLCT. And I don't know exactly what you want me to testify towards I can talk about what we're asking for I don't know I believe that Karen a testified earlier so I don't know if you needed me to fill in any gaps or answer any more questions. No, and I think do we have john flowers with us and Mike Donahue. This is John flowers. Okay john and this Mike Donahue with us also. Yes, I am. Okay. So, Gwen why don't you just lay out the issue for us so that both john and Mike can hear kind of what the issue was because they weren't with us before when we, when we talked about it and give us your ask. Sure, absolutely. So the ask is to do a temporary allowance for other postings outside the realm of public postings in physical locations. That could be electronic means, whether it be a newspaper or from Port's Forum or the like or a town websites to supplement those postings that may or may not be seen most likely won't be seen when they're posted in public. The one new add to this would be a link to the governor's press conference touched on today that we just learned that the town clerk's offices are going to be gradually reopening obviously not for public to be in attendance but for town clerks to have some level of presence in their offices starting on Monday the 20th. So, keeping the physical location of postings at the city hall or town hall or town clerk's office would be perfectly adequate because there will be someone manning the fort essentially who would be able to do those postings. On behalf of a board chair or vice chair or a member, and then the other two postings would be, hopefully we could get it to be a online version. Again, whether it be newspaper or website or the like, and we're only asking it forward to be temporary for, you know, again, this COVID, you know, 19 crisis, and we are asking that, you know, if it pleases the committee and makes it easier for the legislature to really narrow the scope of this to really just mean the notices because the ones we've heard most about our notices for posting agendas and warnings for meetings under the open meeting law. So that would be pretty much any meeting and then the meeting or then the postings for amp the appropriate municipal panel stuff under title 24 for zoning stuff. So when they have to do posting physical postings there. We haven't heard much about any as of yet we haven't heard concerns about other physical postings but those I know may or may not be coming down the line but at least the ones we hear about from zoning officials and from board officials is the is the regular meeting warnings and notices. So I think that pretty much covers it. Okay, Allison. I thought we'd taken care of the notices of meetings. I thought we were discussing legal notices for the towns to be added to do electronic. I thought that's what this conversation was about particularly with Mike Donahue present. We have not, we have not that we had a short conversation about the allowing them to not post in the three places. Yeah. And at the time, we were also considering not having to post at the town clerk's office or at the town hall office because they were running out of posting space window space. But we decide we did not do anything about it because we felt that it was important to hear from other people including the media. So we have not, we have not done this yet. Yeah, that's why we're doing it looking at it today. Got it. So, um, John, do you want to weigh in on this? Now that you heard the issue. If he's okay. I've only got 30 years in Vermont journalism. Mike has around 60. So I'd like him to start. And I'm certainly happy to add on to what he says if if I can. I'll defer to him because he's a youngster. Okay, well, we, we in the industry are don't, I believe have a problem with an online option during this temporary phase to go along with any official posting that might be done at me in terms of hard copy at the town clerk's office or We just like for newspapers to play a role in that we've been, I think we've proven to be a quite a vibrant lifeline to people during this crisis where most of us are working off site. We're still doing our reporting. Um, we're getting some nice support in terms of a boost in subscriptions from people who are recognizing the rough. We're out there and working. Um, I want to say thank you to our own Senator Christopher Bray and other members of the delegation that have been supporting the paper as well. And so if there is any kind of posting requirement. Um, we would like you to consider newspapers as an avenue for that to be done. We reach a lot more people through social media. And through our own social media sites, our websites and our hard copies. We would also remind people that there are areas of the state that are well connected to the internet. And we are even more vital in those areas. And, you know, we do tend to serve a lot of people who aren't on Facebook who don't get to who don't want to get front porch forum or have no use for it and vehicles such as that. And we would argue that, you know, newspapers would be a good, a good way to inform people of public notices. I think that we had had part of this conversation about a year and a half ago, when there was a request to allow people to only post on electronic means and not to have to do newspapers and we chose not to go there at the time so I think that there is still the requirement that they, that things be posted in newspapers of general jurisdiction, I believe. So, because Bray, did you have a. Yeah, so I'm glad that John and Mike are able to join us today. I want to be a little more blunt than, than there being, and that is that I just, I hope that while whatever temporary rules we put into effect won't have any unintended consequence in terms of reducing the amount basically of business that goes to our consumers because they're already under financial stress and so it would just be perverse that at a time where we need them the most that any kind of work around for the next month to three whatever it turns out to be might result in less traffic going to them that's, they're not going to say that but I'll say that. So I appreciate it. I will. Okay, go ahead Mike. Thank you, Madam Chair, and just for the record. Mike Donnie you executive director of my press association. Also the vice president in New England first amendment coalition. I did speak yesterday. Today, to the, I was involved a little bit with the House government operations discussing the same thing so I do know a little bit. I will say that we have not heard any problems from municipal officials about this issue and since our reporters are out there covering things, you think we would have heard but this is not a time to reduce transparency I would thank the senator Bray for his kind comments. If for some reason you were going to reduce transparency and only go with one location I would concur with john that it ought to be newspapers. Obviously they're being delivered to the doorstep. They're being picked up in the community they're online and everything like that yesterday. There was a push to allow if there was going to be one place it would be at the municipal office, but the municipal offices are closed.  We completely lost you. Are you there. Mike, we completely lost you for a period of time you keep going in and out. We lost you. We can hear Mike fine. We can hear Mike fine. I think you got lost. Okay, it wasn't now. Okay, well let me. Let me just back up just to hear. Are you hearing me now. Yes. Okay. Yeah, good. So, so we would support newspapers being the, if you were going to reduce transparency and go to one site newspapers ought to be the one since they are getting out and about in the community. Somebody had proposed yesterday the town offices would be a place to post them but I'm not sure people are driving by their town offices. When a lot of them are closed, and the clerks are working inside to read a bullet board or to read what's on on the class so if you're looking for the greatest transparency. I know the town of Middlebury buys display ads even long before this. I believe they buy display ads for their full agendas for their select board meetings and others town city of Barry does it. And it's great for transparency so that's all we would say if you have some questions and I'd also concur. The issue yesterday also was the lack of connection in some of the rural areas is a problem for some of those towns. Thank you. We're still hearing you Mike but Jeanette's frozen again. So I still. I am frozen. Yes. I don't. What to say. You hear me now. Yeah, only every word every now and then. I can only make a suggestion you might turn off your video and you might have a better link just as audio. And I can only hear you every now and then. Is that better. Yes. Yes. Yes. Is that better. Yes. Well I. I think we heard Mike I just wanted to go back to the situation where the governor has allowed the city or the city hall or town clerks office to be open with two people inside. Does that change any of this for anybody. I just want to say one thing, Senator. One of the comments was made that some of the clerks don't want to go out into the community to post the notices. And I'm not. I'm not sure. I mean, they've got to go out and get their groceries and a lot of the places are supermarkets that are one of the posting places. So. Now there's two people that will be able to go out and about. It sounds like from what the governor is saying. It seems to me that even though the clerk's office will be open and the clerk might be in there working. It's not going to they're not necessarily going to be a lot of regular citizens stopping by to chat or to look at notices seems like even though the office is open. Most people are staying home so they wouldn't see the notices as much about the clerk's office. Even though the clerk's office is open. Can anybody hear me. Yes. Yeah. It's hard to say something. Well, obviously we've got a mission. It's hard to prove a negative. I guess I'm still trying to figure out what we're trying to decide here. Yes, I'm in the same boat as you Brian I'm I'm unclear I mean, if they post them three places, certainly right now without legislation they can post one of the posting places could be the newspaper. I don't know. Each town has a different. Pull on this and it strikes me that I would could just you could just do this now. Right. Yeah. Well, my understanding, my understanding if I can. The clerks did not want to go out into the community and post them at the hardware store or the post office. Yes. And so they wanted to just maybe post the town office where nobody's going to. So that's going to really cut down on the transparent. Let me let me let me step in here so we know exactly what we're talking about. So under title one, it says municipal public body shall post notices of special meetings in or near the municipal clerks office. That's already a requirement. So that's not nothing would change by saying they do or they don't. That's already a requirement there. And then it says, and in at least two other designated public places in the municipality. So when you're talking about public places, the way courts have interpreted no way the law has been interpreted public places are physical posting. So they have to be physically posted somewhere else, whether it be the post office or. The hardware store or the grocery store or the rec fields or whoever it might be in your town. And so the ask was to say if we're not at a stay home, stay safe order and we cannot leave our homes to do postings on the chair of my planning commission. I don't have the authority to go out other than to go grocery shopping and to go to medical appointments if needed. You'd be in violation of the order by doing these postings and that's been the discomfort for chairs and those that are doing these posting not just town clerks because a lot of town clerks don't do these postings on behalf of those boards. And so the request was to say, is there other ways we can do the dissemination of information instead of in designated public places physically they could do designated public places that might be in there. It's like in lieu there of a newspaper, a town website, a again front porch forum or some manner where they don't have to physically go out into into the world to do postings that may or may not be seen. That's what the request has been. Yes, can anybody hear me now, or me. Yes, I keep, I keep losing you all the time I have not been able to say a word for the lack. I just wanted to try and make it clear that we're not asking that they only posted in one place the newspaper. All of those things are still required we're just asking that they not have to post it in the grocery store or the deli or the co op or the laundromat. That's all the ask is right when. Yes, the request is to just get rid of those and in addition add ones that they could do in in lieu there of not saying they would post in just one place. We could post in three different places but it would be in places that places that people would actually see it, whether it be a newspaper or whether it be online or on a town website, they have not legally been able to do this under the interpretation of this current law. Yes, but quite honestly, this is what's happening now. I mean, almost every time I mean the town websites are where people are going to get information. And we've never had and I and Senator Clarkson we've never had the legal no no one has said that's a legal posting under state law so our towns have always gone out and done these physical postings because courts have interpreted that way. So they can continue to post on all those other places run porch forum, the newspaper, the town website everywhere else. They just don't have to put it in the grocery store or the laundromat. We're just asking that they not. So we could the language could be Tucker I would think that they not have to post in that they have to continue to post but the town hall. They do not have to post in two other physical locations in the town, but they have to make sure that posts are done so that in newspapers and in, and it doesn't cost anything to put up. It's only legal notices that cost in the newspapers right. No madam, no madam chair that. Well, the best on the newspaper they're all independent but that would be like placing a classified ad or I think the town of Middlebury and Barry, though, they're buying display ads, not classified ads but block ads like you see for stores. Because I think our newspaper what they do is they. Anyway, they always have just did have do a list of meetings in the area. But what I'm talking about is not just a list of the meetings, but it's the full agenda will say, oh, I order flag salute. Gotcha. You know minutes approval warrants, everything. Okay. Chris. So, I don't know what wind might be thinking of or we have language already sorry that it would seem as though just specifying that we don't that the all the two one approach will be to say the two alternative postings or whatever they're called, maybe satisfied by an electronic posting, including. I don't use those or something like that. So we're not waving the number of posts, not reducing the amount of exposure. We're just allowing for electronic to satisfy the other postings that the law has been interpreted to mean physical postings. Can we just make that clarification of interpretation in the statute. If I could just add madam chair, every town has to declare a newspaper of record. Every market when they have the organizational meeting so there is a newspaper of record. Right down for legal notices. Just been extension. Senator. And this is going back again. I just wanted to point out that, you know, there are town websites. So if towns do have websites, they can certainly have that be an option as well. They can have it be a newspaper of record as well. I mean, the only problem with having it having to be a newspaper is that sometimes the newspaper of record doesn't get printed every single day or every two days or every three days. And therefore, a lot of these requirements like, for example, when you're doing the time place purpose of a special meeting under the meeting law, there is a 24 hour sort of like at least 24 hours before the meeting. If it's a regular meeting at 48 hours, so there might be instances where you aren't getting your, you aren't able to get your newspaper to print in the time necessary to do the warning if they're working under those 24 to 48 hour limitations. Tucker. Well, I think a good compromise might be that if John flowers, if the, the communities were instructed to, you know, if a electronic version is, is needed or directed that it be that newspaper, the newspaper record be one of the mandated recipients along with any other social media vehicle they choose as well so that if you know the newspaper record is included as well as a, you know, another electronic vehicle that would be fine and by the way, most of our are most of the newspapers have their own websites so that we have the capacity to react to postings very quickly as well. Tucker. I just wanted to offer a little bit of clarity for Senator Bray and for some of the questions that have just come up. If this is going to be dealing with the application of the open meeting law to these general meetings that was bringing up. There are really two instances where the two other designated public places comes up. The first is in announcing the time and place of a special meeting. And when you hold a special meeting in addition to posting you have to publicly announce and publicly announcing includes a press release that would be issued to the editor of a newspaper. Probably, although it's not expressed in the open meeting law, the newspaper of record for that particular public body. The municipality there is not obligated to buy ad space they just have to announce to the media organizations that serve their area that this special meeting is happening. The second instance, and the open meeting law that you are concerned with here is the posting of agendas and the municipalities are required to post in two categories of locations. The first is if the municipality has a website, then they have to post the agenda on their website. They don't have a website obviously they're not required to but if they do they're required to post it on their website. And the second is that they have to post it in or around the office of the clerk of the municipality and in two designated public places in the municipality. And then pointed out, because of that separation between that electronic posting place and then the way that that phrase is put together to other designated public places in the municipality. Those are physical locations. So, I guess I'm feeling even more confused than I was before but if we just eliminated that phrase and two other physical locations in the community shouldn't and didn't say anything more at all does that take care of what we need to do. I'm going to get the part of the base request, which would be the municipalities would still be posting in or around the town clerk's office. If it's a special meeting, there would still be the requirement that it is publicly announced. When you're talking about the agendas there would still be the requirement that if the municipality has a website it gets posted to the website, and then it gets posted at the town clerk's office. Right. That I mean and it doesn't require people to pay for an ad in the newspaper or anything else. If, if it's a legal notice then they would have to do that but if it's an agenda or minutes they wouldn't necessarily we don't want I don't think we want to add more, more requirements to them now than they have currently have. I thought we were just taking away those two public places. I thought so too. Chris. Okay. Well, for taking away. I think the phrase that Tucker. Did I get this right to other designated places in the community. Yes. Right. So, You could also cite to and then that's been interpreted as physical locations. If you said two other designated places. You know, physical or electronic in the community. You could open the door to however makes the most sense for them to get the word out. But aren't they already required to do it on their website and they are for special meetings or anything else they're required to notify the newspaper of record. Right. So, I mean, I guess we could put two other that they are required to do at least two other places that could be electronic or physical. If everybody felt more comfortable with that. That's what I thought we were saying. That's the direction I thought we were heading anyway. That instead of three physical locations there'd be the town clerk's office and two other locations electronic or physical. Does that and john Mike. Well, I, you know, if there could be in some way that the newspapers could be included and I'm not saying that because we're looking for revenue, even if there's no financial incentive or no, no financial penalty for you know, a newspaper could receive such notices and choose to print them without compensation is what I'm saying and the part of this and I know that's probably not your name germane to this discussion but there there might be a slippery slope here if if if local governments start funneling all of their stuff different porch forum and and and excludes local media from that equation. You know, it just it's going to continue and you know we'd like to be part of of the process and yeah, I mean that's kind of part of the way I feel about it so that if we could be copied on fun stuff that that is sent to other electronic media that would that would be good under the law under the law right now. Every newspaper can ask that copies of agendas be sent to them and I think most towns carry them over from year to year you're supposed to ask every year but you know, I think once you get on a distribution list for like the Woodstock select board I'm sure that the Valley News and the Vermont standard get the agendas and everything like that so that's those are going to the question is the actual agenda that like I said that says, you know, flag salute approval of minutes, public to be heard, you know, police department, the discussion of speed limit, you know, all those things that are on a regular agenda. That's what I think we're discussing here is, how does the public know what exactly they're going to be talking about. If they're, if there's a line or just to fire the police. The people on know it as opposed to just that there's a meeting on Tuesday night that the select board is meeting. So what if we, what if we word it this way that the near on or near the municipal cider whatever however that language is exactly, and two other places, electronic or physical at least one to be the newspaper of whatever that word is that they record. Yeah. That works for me I mean when I said, when I said before about two other places electronic or whatever I kind of was presuming newspapers was one of them for you to choose. I just didn't phrase it right. Yeah. Brian. Yeah. I'm sympathetic to Mike and john. There are places in Vermont that don't have consistent dependable internet access. So you can put it on the website all you want but if nobody can get to it, he really doesn't do any good. I think there still has to be forgive me for saying it this way some old school way for people to get the message and so I agree that we should, we should call out newspapers as one of the acceptable methods. When did you I think the only concern with this would be the cost that would go into the posting, and it's considerably expensive to do newspaper posting for town so I think that it's, you know, other than the cost of the gas and the paper to post in a grocery store is considerably less than the cost of posting for every town or newspapers. So I think that would be a concern for my town. So I think I'm just talking. Are we just talking during this emergency period we're not talking. Yeah, yeah, but, but it's not that much. Just a cost. Hold on. Even during this emergency period which could last for some time and could pop up again in the fall. There is a cost so Mike when you said that right now. I think the editors can ask towns to send them all the minutes and the agendas. If they choose to print those do they charge the town or do they just print them because I don't want to incur extra costs for the towns, but we want to be able to have stuff out there so how do we charge right now if, if the town of Putney sends the agenda and the minutes to the Brattleboro reformer. The reformer can do anything it wants with those right it doesn't have to print it exactly like it is it can say there's going to be a meeting Tuesday Monday night and they're going to talk about the should we change from a town manager form of government that they handle that now. Essentially, one of two or three different ways, one they can just list it as a meeting in a whole government calendar of here are the town meetings for Wyndham County, and show who's meeting on which nights. Once they get that agenda. They get a news story if they are going to fire the police chief or whatever if they see something on the agenda and want the public to know about it. And, and the third way is that they would just buy, buy an ad that would include and show everybody exactly what is on the agenda for the Monday night meeting. Every town is different. Every, every town and newspaper is different. And we're not just talking here about select board meetings and deep DRB meetings. We're talking about the tree committee and the cemetery committee. And do we really want to have towns have to pay for putting an agenda for the cemetery committee and, and then minutes for the cemetery committee in every time. Again, a lot of the government meetings have been canceled. I know several towns say they are meeting until May at least, they've canceled all government meetings. So, there aren't that many. And, and I will tell you that that the standard posting of agendas is commonplace in advertising in a lot of other states from on it is is somewhat unique that they don't require publicity of agendas and things like that from what I've been told. And then people pay for it in all those. Yeah, in all those other states. Their towns must have be a little more flush than ours. Well, it's not that expensive. I mean, where are we? I thought that we were only talking about eliminating two physical locations. That's sort of what I thought we were talking about. So Tucker, do we have the, the kind of suggestion that I made two other sites, electronic or physical at least one to be the newspaper of record does that work. Does that work with anybody except Anthony and me. Yeah. Okay, I see Chris. I see Brian. I hear Allison. She's lost words. No, I was wanting to say something. Okay. I think, I think that I wouldn't I mean as much as I love our local weekly papers I wouldn't necessarily put that burden on. For a notice, I mean, my Billings Park Commission is not going to pay for an ad for a notice in, in the Vermont standard, we just not going to do that.  I think such using the website and the, and the posting your town hall and somebody's been sticking it up at the EMS building. And I just not, I think to have to pay for a notice of a very small little town commission is too much to ask. I agree. But I wouldn't put the paper of public record I think that's too much for an open meeting agenda for small commissions. It could get pretty costly if you have, if the newspapers are going to charge.  Anthony did you. Oh, you were putting yourself on mute. Okay, where are we. What, why can't we just say to other place to be flexible. And currently, the newspapers can request that the town send them the agendas and the minutes for meetings. Am I correct about that.  And yeah, any town. Okay. Anybody can not just newspapers and citizen. So if the newspaper makes that request and the, and it comes and there's something of interest in there that the new, like our bellows falls. Just fired their town manager and their canine. Yeah, dog. They fired that fabulous new town manager. Well, they didn't renew her contract so she quit. Oh my God, she was great. Well, yes, I'm not going to go into that. Because they didn't think so. We have the, we have the world listening to us perhaps so I will be quiet, but those so if the, if they sent the agenda to the reformer and the reformer says, Wow, this looks pretty interesting. They're going to talk about the contract for the town manager or they're going to talk about the, the police dog. They could do a story on it or they could print it, but it wouldn't necessarily be a legal notice that they would have to print the whole agenda they would get the whole agenda, whatever they chose to do with it. It's just the way it works now right, we don't require towns to print the and pay for the entire agendas and minutes. Now. In, if I could just give one perspective as a as a reporter if, if we could be, if it could be said that we should be copied on whatever public notices are sent out to other electronic sources that we demanded it would be we'd be one of the recipients. Yes, then we would have the discretion to, to print that, or as much of it as we as space will permit. And then it would also certainly inform us about kind of the news coverage capabilities I we have some town clerks in our area and Addison County who unfortunately reflexively send all of their public notices to front porch for more through the town's Facebook site and have bypassed the local paper, you know, not recognizing that a good many of our seniors don't use social media or email to get their news. So that if we could it could be said that we should be one of the recipients the mandated recipients for those notices that would be great. Okay, that makes sense. Allison. All right, on weekly papers if you have a meeting that is called within a week with, but keeping with the two 2048 hour notice requirement. You're not going to get it posted in time. I mean, paper, it's just too long a lag, sometimes between the deadlines and when the meeting might be, but, but it's posted online, but if they're just wait, if the newspapers are copied. They, some of them won't be able to meet the timeline some of them might, but we're not going, but they're not required to the town isn't required to have them a notice there they're required to copy the newspaper, the newspaper can put it online if they have an online service, they don't have to do anything with it they could send out a reporter, if they, if it sounds interesting to them or they could ignore it. But if we just say that they are to should be copied on every notice that goes out to these that is posted on the town site, the municipal office. And at least two other places physical or electronic and that the newspapers are copied. The newspaper of record is copied on all of those notices. And that's just punching in a website or an email address. It doesn't sound very complicated to me, I, I write a column periodically and I just put in the three newspaper outlets that I deal with and send it off it's. I know I do that to seven and I do that but I know that that runs are and some anyway, fine. If they send it out, and the newspaper doesn't get it till after the meeting. At least they've sent it. And a percentage of us I would wager have our own websites as well at this point. Yeah, but we're talking. Primarily, we want newspapers because of those people like me, who still read my physical newspaper every morning. Me too. I'm right with you. So, Tucker does something like that work. Yeah, I can work. When would you like to have language ready. When. Sorry. This muting button thing it's a little confusing. I, I, we were hoping for it as soon as you could. That would be great. I think the language that you're proposing for at least noticing the newspapers without any, you know, money exchanging hands I think that's a lot better I think that is doable. And then only would be how many other places would they have to send the notice out with that that email sent off to, you know, the Herald be considered one of the notices. Would it not, would you still keep the town clerk posting like what what would what would be the, but because right now it's three places right. But it sounds like maybe we're going to four places there'd be two electronic plus the town clerk plus the newspaper. My concern would be that maybe if a town is already having a post to a website. If they have one, they might not have two other electronic places plus the newspaper so maybe one electronic in addition to the newspaper. No, it says, I thought we said two other sites, electronic physical. Okay. And newspaper, the newspaper record to be copied. Okay, that sounds good. Okay, I was my apologies I was a little confused, but that sounds good. Yeah, and I think that solves everyone's problem I think that the newspapers are in the know you know whether they get it, you know, and it's off time to print is, you know, I guess another story but, you know at least they're getting noticed, and towns officials aren't having to go out and post in places that that people aren't seeing this. So we are. We are, we don't have permission to Brian, did you have a question or are you fixing your glass. Okay, okay, I just want to make sure that you get hurt if. Okay. We have not gotten permission to vote on this. If you could write something up, I will go to the rules committee, ask them if they can perhaps have a quick meeting on Monday or one day next week. We will not be, we are meeting on the floor in a floor session on Monday, at which time we will be voting on the bill that we did around the property taxes with the VLCT and, and we'll be voting on that on Monday and then we probably, we might have another floor session by the end of the week and if we could have it ready for that. That would be great, but we may not have another floor session because I would love to get it be able to get it over to the house so they could deal with it. They apparently might have a floor session on Friday. So, Jeanette, yes, you might ask the president for Tim, if there could be rules, a quick rules meeting this weekend and get it so that we could get it on the calendar for Monday. I would not go on the calendar for Monday anyway and be, and I would, I think that this one could end up having a lot of questions and I think that it would be better to have to put it off until the end of the week or even next week because the house will not be in a position to take it up yet anyway and I'd rather get all the questions answered from the senators before we go to the floor. Brian. I brought up the house so Mike mentioned that he had testified before the House Government Operations Committee yesterday. Are they also going to craft something that might be another way to do it is to wait for them to do it on Friday and then we could incur. As far as I know, Senator, there was nothing requested to be drafted or anything like that. This was just more of a discussion to see and there was, there was three topics that they were talking about yesterday and this just happened to be one of them. Never mind that. Thank you. And I think they have they have such a build up of bills that we've been sending over that they at this point are still responding to what we're sending them. But I will, I will also contact Sarah Copeland Hanses and John Gannon and John Gannon. I don't know if he's out there listening or not but he listens to many of our most of our meetings so that he can keep up up with what we're doing. So Tucker does that work if we could have it. We're meeting again on Tuesday afternoon. Yes, you, I will get it ready before then so that you can have it and consider it and you what you will with it. I would not be doing my lawyerly duties if I didn't ask this question. What do these locations. Do you want them to be designated electronic locations. Now, what do you mean that we would designate them. The legislative body of the municipality would actually have to vote on what these locations would be which would be their way of announcing or designating what these new locations would be. It's important whether you want that word to appear or not. I, I see that when what do you think. So I'm, what was the question again whether or not to have the legislative body determine that or not to determine that. The question is whether to have these be designated locations. Having the legislative or public body that is making the announcement. Designate what the locations are going to be ahead of time by some official act or whether it's just required that they post it when they are posting it to two locations. Yeah, I think just given the nature of how things are moving right now, I think that it makes more sense to just leave it open for them for each body to sort of do with. It seems that because it's going to be hard to gather every single body to make a determination for what would be theirs or to have a legislative body make the determination for another body. Like the DRB doing their postings under, you know, title 244464, you know, those areas. So I would, I think it would be better to just leave it and just say doesn't have to be designated just have to be those up to the bodies to make the determination. Could it be, could we say something about that each, each body or each entity needs to be consistent and where they post it because I don't think it makes any sense for the select board to post on the town. Well, they have on the town website one week and front porch that week and then the next week to do it on Facebook and someplace else I think that they need to be somewhat consistent about where they're posting so I don't know how to word that. And also one of them, if they have a town website needs to be the town website. Don't we have that already. Tucker, don't we. I think I may have caused confusion by using the word legislative body. The question is whether the public body that is going to be making these announcements and posting these things should be required to designate the location that they're going to be posting on. So we're designated. If it's included will require them to name the place that they're going to be posting these two. So the parks group might be posting at a different place than the cemetery commission, but they would each determine to those places where they're going to be so people know can consistently find their postings. Instead of changing them every week Anthony. Do we currently make them designate where they're going to post the public ones. Yes, we do. It is a designated location. So it says the grocery store is like official. Right. What I understand. And again, I'm not out there practicing with the municipalities. The municipality designates locations for purposes of, you know, their legislative body. And then most of the other public bodies that are operating within the municipality will also use those locations. And I think it's important for me because the clerk is typically the municipal officer who is kind of broadly handling the posting of these notices and stays consistent with where they're being posted. I actually like that. Chris, did you have a, I thought I saw your hand up. You would really urge you to sort of mandate like the select more dozen, like Tucker said, where, where you designate for the whole town, so that the cemetery commission isn't doing it one way. The planning commission another way. And, and you've got to guess and try to remember who's doing what it's just easier. Absolutely. I agree with you the legislative body should make that decision. Yeah, it makes sense. All right. So, at least one, two other sites. If the electronic or physical designated to other designated sites electronic or physical, if the town maintains a website, one of them has to be the town website, and copies have to be sent to the newspaper of record. Correct. And the reason that I asked about the designated is that this may be very simple temporary provision because everything that you're discussing including the posting on the municipal website if one exists is already in the underlying law. So is the designation. So the change would be that instead of the two other designated public places in the municipality, you just allow them to use an electronic location. Perfect. Good. Is everybody okay with this sounds good to me. Everybody seems to be in agreement. Yep. Yes. Yes. Okay. All right. So if we can see some language by so we can just have a short discussion on it on Tuesday. I think Tuesday we're doing title searches and the training the academy. I think we should have a little bit of time at the very beginning that we could do this. Does that make sense. Yep. Okay. All right. Anything else. No. Thank you, Mike and John. Thank you. And so once again, Susanna, I see her little name down there and we might learn from this. Yeah. I would like to make some more permanent changes about the way we do things in the future from. I would like, I like also always to see you Susanna, but you don't show yourself very often. There you are. I don't, I don't mean to be coy. I just didn't know if you wanted to see me slurping on tea the whole time. Yeah. Yeah. So yesterday, Senator Bray muted himself on his video for a while. Cause he was eating a sandwich. So we're used to that. Anything else committee that. So. Next week, I believe that's what we're going to do is on Tuesday, the. Title searches and the academy on Tuesday. And this bill. And then on Thursday, we are going to look at. I believe Thursday was when we scheduled. Looking at. Community that risk more. A little bit more conversation about. About the voting, just if there were more suggestions or things that had. Been incorporated from our last discussion and hearing other issues that have come up there. I. A couple of people have asked to participate in that. And I think one of the issues that we should talk about is the racial. The bias incident reporting. And that was kind of between here and judiciary. About what, what is bias related reporting. And bias incident related reporting. And how do we make it consistent across the state so that we. We know when there are incidents. Happening. And not necessarily even making them a crime, but so that we can keep track of them. So that we can keep track of them. So that we know what's happening out there. So I would like to, I think there is. A group that's been working on that and hear from them. About that. Cause that deals with law enforcement. And. Are there other. Other issues. Right now that we can think of. Nope. No. Just stay safe this weekend. Yeah. And that Gail. Before we go, Senator. I think there is a group that's been working on that and hear from them. About that. Okay. Before we go, Senator. I know that on Friday of next week, we were going to talk about anything that came up from today regarding municipalities. And I don't know if we have anything that we've. Identified yet. When are there other things that have come up. We, I mean, yeah, everything. There's a lot of things coming up. I mean, I'm not sure if we're going to be able to do that, but I think we're going to be able to do that right now. So I had heard the testimony yesterday. And that was a topic of discussion. And we were kind of waiting to see what the agenda was going to be and get it a better feel for. And there's also discussion about having local officials testify. So we have a whole list of local officials that wanted to testify in a whole host of different issues. So. So we're thinking about an RN. I just don't have like a laundry list. Okay. We'll put that on.  Because we did. We gave some abilities for municipalities to, or we're going to hopefully. On Monday. Around. Around property taxes, but. Brown Monroe is in a very different situation because they. They haven't had their town meeting yet. They had to cancel it because. Of COVID because they have theirs on the third. They don't have a tax rate on meetings. So they don't have a tax rate. They don't have. Any of that. So. I sent Tucker the. Email from Peter L. Well, and I wasn't sure. If it was recoup would require additional legislation, Tucker, or if you've even had time to look at that. I did have an opportunity to look at it, madam chair. And the. Message that you sent me was a general. The general provisions of the municipal property tax bill that you all voted on. I think if you go all. If you go all the way down to the bottom, there are four. Particular requests for the town of Brattle. Bro. All right. I will take a look at them. And it looked like it was four requests that lined up with some of the BLCT recommendations. And I responded that those were. Taken care of by the general provisions of the municipal property tax bill. So. We'll take a look at them and send a response to the committee. Okay. And then. So we could deal with that on Friday also if there needs to be something special for them. Okay. And it isn't that Brattle bro is special necessarily, although it certainly is. But they have representative town meeting. They don't have the same kind of town meeting that everybody else has. So. Okay. Thanks everybody. Do you have anything to add? No, thank you for checking. I don't have anything to add. If there's anything that I can do to help facilitate anything on the admin side, then please do let me know as always. And we're always happy to have you with us. And, and it's really nice to have somebody from the administration consistently. With us. Yeah, it's nice. It's refreshing. Thank you. All right. Have a great weekend, everybody. Bye. Bye.


Thank you all for coming. We're going to be talking about the impact of the DOB's decision on the delivery of health care to women. And I'm delighted to be joined by Lucy, the folks who are on the front lines here, of providing the health care that women need. Just a few comments. The DOB's decision is a shocking act of judicial vandalism by our Supreme Court. It's the first time I'm aware of where the Supreme Court has actually taken away a constitutional right that women in this country have protected for 50 years. And you're going to be speaking to us specifically about how that impacts your ability to provide health care to women, how it creates a lot of apprehension and fear. Just when I anecdote here, when I came home the day of that decision, there was a rally in Burlington, and there were many rallies around the state. And what I remember so vividly about that, it was different than other times when there's been citizen objection to something either Congress or the Supreme Court has done. And what I would see was anger. At this event, I saw a lot of fear. There were real, real world implications for people when they knew that. And I know you'll be able to speak to that. The second thing that I find extraordinary about this decision is how it's poor gasoline and let the match on the division we have in this country that is already too much. We need more unity. We need more mutual respect. We need more collaboration. And what this decision has done is exactly the opposite. Because we have peaceful coexistence. There are people in this country who do not believe in abortion. They're entitled to that point of view. But they're not entitled to impose that view on others. And what has happened here with this decision is that it's created a new political division within this country where folks who see the Dove's decision as justification for them to impose their will on others is, of course, creating a lot of conflict. And in the Senate, Mitch McConnell has indicated that he would favor a ban on abortion nationwide. Many states, of course, have already passed legislation that would do that. I'm very, very hopeful here in Vermont that we'll pass Proposition 5. Our legislature has approved that. Our governor said that he will support that. And it's great if in Vermont the citizens protect reproductive freedom for women by approving Proposition 5. And of course, in Congress, I voted for the Women's Health Protection Act. And that would get through the Senate, except for the filibuster. But as important as it is for us to pass Proposition 5 here in Vermont, when I talk to women in Vermont, they don't think reproductive freedom should be based on your zip code. And yes, we want to pass that here in Vermont. But Vermont women want the right of choice to be available to all women. And that's why the Supreme Court decision is so bad. So thank you so much for coming and for the work you do, but now we'll turn it over to Lucy.  Thank you so much, Congressman Welch, for convening this roundtable. This is such an important moment in history. And also for your years of unwavering support for reproductive rights and human rights. So good morning, everyone. My name is Lucy LaRiche. I'm the vice president of Vermont Public Affairs for Planned Parenthood Northern New England, Vermont, and Planned Parenthood Vermont Action Fund. Thank you all for being here. I first want to stress that abortion is still legal, safe and legal in Vermont. Unfortunately, there are many places where this is not the case and where the threat looms very large. However, since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, we continue to see the fallout of this devastating and cruel decision. Our patients are scared and they're confused. They want to know where they can still access a safe and legal abortion, what longer-term birth control options are available. And out of state callers want to know if they will face prosecution for coming to our area for care. In fact, anecdotally, we had a person call the health center and wanted to know if they could be prosecuted for an abortion that they had received years ago. So this is really creating chaos in the minds of people and around the country. At Planned Parenthood, we firmly believe that access to sexual and reproductive health care, including abortion, shouldn't depend on your zip code. We are committed to serving everyone who walks through our doors. We're also committed to protecting reproductive rights in Vermont long-term. In this November, Vermonters will vote on the Reproductive Liberty Amendment, or Article 22, previously known as Prop 5, which will protect every person's right to make their own reproductive decisions, like whether and when to become pregnant, use temporary or permanent birth control, or seek abortion care. Between now and election day, we'll work around the clock to make sure every Vermont voter has accurate information about the Reproductive Liberty Amendment so that they can make an informed decision when it comes time to cast their ballots. I'm now pleased to introduce Allie Stickney. Allie Stickney is the former CEO of Planned Parenthood, Northern New England, and she serves as chair of the board of the University of Vermont Health Network. So, Allie. Great, thank you, Lucy, very much, and thank you Congressman Welch for being here today and getting attention to this really very basic and important topic, so I appreciate that. I am here, I think, for a little historical perspective, I think. My work with Planned Parenthood started when abortion was illegal in Vermont, so in the early 1970s. So my first work, some of my first work, was staffing and chairing what we called the Problem Pregnancy Team that provided information to women about where they could get a safe abortion, not a legal abortion, but a safe abortion. And at that time, we referred women to Dr. Henry Morgantaler up in Montreal, because abortion was not legal in New York State then, either. And he was a physician who had abortion facilities and the government chose not to prosecute him, so he provided safe abortion. So I wanna draw a few threads from back then to today, as we see illegal abortion emerge again, because I think there are some important language that has resurfaced that I think is important to pay attention to, and some important situations where what might not be legal is still done and what might be legal is not done. So I'm gonna give some examples of that.  We used to use that term back when only some kinds of abortions were allowed in the beginning days, and now I'm seeing reappear again, and I think one of the dangers of that is it implies that some women have valid reasons for seeking an abortion, and other women are seeking abortion only just they don't really need to, but they just want to. So I think we really need to be aware of that sort of language that puts women in a different categories, depending on their reason for seeking abortion. The question of things that are done when abortion is not legal, but is done, one example would be that telephone service we had, which was illegal by Vermont law, but we did it anyway, and I think we will see that happen again. I think we will begin to see people taking action that may not be legal, but they're going to do it. So I think that we're faced with that in this new day. The other thing to pay attention to is when things are legal, but nobody will provide it. So back when, in the early days of abortion provision, when abortion finally did become legal, there were many physicians in hospitals who did not want to perform abortions, so that's a reason that women's health centers came forward, Planned Parenthoods came forward. So I think that's a piece we have to pay attention to in our current situation where abortion may still be legal in Vermont, but we need to make sure that it continues to be available. And I'll close by giving one more example, which I think might sound far-fetched, but in today's environment isn't necessarily, and that's around contraception. So again, in an historical perspective, contraception was legal in the early 70s, but young women could not access it because there wasn't a provider who would provide contraception to women who weren't married and might be under the age of 21. So Planned Parenthood had an under 21 program when we made sure that unmarried women could have access to contraception. And I think we have to be aware of that in the days coming up too. Things may be legal, but some providers may choose because of political pressure, not to provide services to women and to young women. So those are some of the lessons learned from the early days, which I used to think were history, but now you can see some of them re-emerging. Yeah, thank you very much. I'm chilling to think about, thank you, Allie. So now I'm pleased to introduce Dr. Stephen Brown and OBGYN and geneticist, as well as an associate professor at UVM Medical Center. Dr. Brown. Oh, good morning. Yeah, I guess thank you for your comments about language. That's something I've struggled with myself over the years and what you're saying is correct. So I guess, you know, my own comments here have to do with the fact that for me abortion is something that is a practical matter. It needs to happen. There are patients who need it and who are going to get it one way or another. And, you know, we're fortunate to be here in Vermont where we're not restricted, at least not yet. And I feel badly for my colleagues around the country who can't offer care to patients who desperately need it.  And I can only imagine that if that's happening here in our small state, it must be on a much huge scale in other places. I, you know, feel badly for those people. And I guess I'll just finish up by saying that I think that the idea of having a constitutional amendment here in Vermont to protect abortion rights is a very, very prudent idea that I'm hopeful to see pass in the fall and it gets voted on. Thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Brown. I'd like to now turn it over to Tanya Sarota Winston, the director of clinical care at Planned Parenthood, Northern New England. Hi, thanks everybody for being in one of our health centers here. I would just share our perspective at Planned Parenthood where we have definitely already provided abortion care for people who have traveled great distances in this country. Since actually SB 8 in Texas, I myself helped provide abortion care to somebody from Texas two weeks after SB 8 was passed in our Rutland Health Center. So it is already happening that people are traveling great distances and sometimes finding their way to Vermont as their way to access their needed care. We certainly anticipate that to continue and to increase, unfortunately, in these times. Then there are the other impacts that we see already, as the congressman mentioned. Just that fear, like the number of phone calls that we've already received in our health centers of people local and from great distances calling with questions about how to access care, sort of reassessing their approach to their reproductive health care. We've seen a big upsurge in people seeking sterilization services, seeking long-acting reversible contraceptives, IUDs and implants. I've cared myself for people who are here for the summer in Vermont at home and feeling very worried about heading back to college in other states in this country and feeling a lot of need to receive services here in Vermont before they head back to college. So it is already having an impact in our health centers. We're super proud to be here to see those patients and to really show up for them. It certainly calls on us to do even more than we have before. But it really is already impacting providers in Vermont. Thank you. That's amazing. Within two weeks of the Texas decision, you had somebody from Texas here. Wow. Wow. Yeah, thank you, Tonya. There are states trying to make it illegal to travel, right? Now, which is scary. Yeah, I mean, that's the division I'm talking about because now there's been, it's unleashed that people who believe, they're opposed to abortion are now unleashed to impose that view on everyone else. And that's the fear that we see in our health centers. That's right. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Tonya. And I'm pleased to introduce to you here, Sydney Cordozo. She attends Lerner College of Medicine at UVM. Thank you for being here. Hi, thanks for having me. I'm also here with my friend and colleague, Brittany, who's second year at school with me as well. Your second year? I'm a third year. Third year? Second year, yes. Alright, seniority. Well, so it doesn't exist. Yeah, we just wanted to talk about the perspective of medical students, how this decision is affecting our education wellness and the overall impact on our health system. So to start, I guess with our education, we're very lucky here in Vermont at University of Vermont to have classes on termination of pregnancy in our pre-clerkship years, which are the first two years. And I'm currently in my OBGYN rotation right now. And I've actually been able to be, in a case with Dr. Brown, the one he was mentioning. The life-threatening one. And so we have access to these learning opportunities, which is imperative for our learning. And I guess the question is, are other students in other institutions getting the same education? And I think the answer to that is no, they're not. These procedures and these medical termination of pregnancy, those are on our exams, on our boards. It's pertinent to our education, and most importantly, it's pertinent to patient care. We're lucky in Vermont that we're receiving that. We're receiving that, but other places, I'm fearful that's not happening, as well as implications for residency training. I was with a fourth-year resident, in the case with Dr. Brown, who's interested in maternal fetal medicine, and she mentioned how imperative it is for her to be able to offer all therapeutic options to her patients. And she's training at Vermont, and she has the opportunity to learn about counseling and procedural techniques, but other institutions do not offer that. As far as medical student wellness goes, I think this is extremely distressing for students, especially even before getting to medical school. It's already a lucrative and challenging process to get in. And then you have to add it on challenge of deciding if you can be safe going somewhere in your education and your care. Because of the laws in that state. Yeah. And also, being medical students in residence, a lot of people will delay pregnancy because of the rigors of training. And as we know, as you get older, there are more complications with pregnancy. So it's another decision you have to make about where maybe you pursue residency training because you want access to care in case there's a pregnancy complication. There was this stat that Brittany and I were talking about where out of a survey of 629 female surgeons, 42% of them had pregnancy complications. Wow. And it's terrifying to think if you're training somewhere, you've gotten to some of the peak of your career in training. And if something were to happen, that could go away very quickly. So those are some of the things we wanted to bring up. Brittany, do you want to talk about anything? Yeah, so I'll just expand a little bit on your mention of the way that folks are delaying family building in their careers. On the flip of that, there's also the reality that folks who can become pregnant, including our trans and non-binary colleagues, may choose not to pursue specialties which are demanding of their time and their capacity. So, you know, a lot of what I've noticed as someone who's been in the medical field for a few years, even prior to entering medical school is the disparity in gender of the providers in certain specialties. And I think that this decision will only exacerbate that issue given that, you know, the folks who can become pregnant might be less likely to pursue a specialty that is going to require so much time of them that they won't be able to care for a child that they may have been forced to birth. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Sydney, and Whitney, for your perspective.  And Congressman Welch, you especially are wearing the cape today and every day trying to keep us in the fight. You're kind to do that. But, you know, this is a human-level issue. It's like women every day have to have confidence that they can make healthcare decisions and get the support they need to do it. And, you know, you've just addressed some of the life situations that so many people are in that now get complicated because this government's getting in the way. I mean, it's a staggering decision. And, you know, as I mentioned at the beginning, there's really two parts to this. One is the basic freedom of a woman to make her own decision. And that was protected by Roe for 50 years. And isn't that the right way that it would be? It's not a debate about abortion or not. It's about who makes the decision. And then in those situations where there's a medical complication and there are women speaking to people who dealt with this, Dr. Brown, I know you have, where the person who is pregnant has this whole vision of being a mom and maybe getting that room ready for the child. And then you have to give the news that there's a real lethal situation here and there's a heartbreaking decision that has to be made. Well, that has to be the woman and it has to be the doctor. And it can't be the government. It just can't be the government. These are hard, hard decisions, but government should not be getting in the way of the woman and the doctor who have to make this decision. And then what I've been so upset about too is reading about how doctors are now facing liability when they exercise judgment. You know, your job is to give the news, in your opinion, the best that can possibly be given to your patient. And if you now have people second-guessing you because they're there in the view against abortion and they're going to be second-guessing your medical judgment that you owe to your patient, that's a terrible situation to put that woman in that doctor. Any questions or anything? Can I just add one more thing? I think you bring up a good point on how it should be a decision between the patient and the physician. And Brittany and I were talking a lot how this decision often, in what times, affects those who are most vulnerable, so that will be our black and people of color, as well as our trans folks. So I think it's important to remember them in this conversation about how decisions like DOBS can lead to other adverse decisions like prevention of birth control and other hormone therapies, as well as just limiting safety and access. Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, definitely. Any questions? Did you want to take questions? I think if you want to take questions. No, whatever. Any other process or questions? I have a quick question. Earlier this week, President Biden signed an executive order that would make it easier for states like Vermont that have not outlawed abortions to apply for Medicaid vouchers to help pay for procedures for people who might come from out of state here. Just how crucial is that to be able to get these Medicaid or to apply for the Medicaid vouchers to pay for the procedures? Yeah, whether it's Vermont or another state, it is incredibly important that we be providing resources to people who have really been disadvantaged and discriminated against based on where they live in regards to their ability to get healthcare. This is astounding to me that we live in a country where your human rights depend on what state you live in. It's a travesty. So we absolutely support the Biden administration and their efforts to make sure there are resources available to people to access critical fundamental healthcare. I don't know if anyone else wants to... It's really simple. This is a healthcare issue and in a society we should have healthcare access for everybody. And it's that simple. We should have privacy too. If we really had privacy we wouldn't even have to have this conversation. And Dr. Brown, unfortunately the DOB's decision opens the door for intrusion into privacy in other areas. Justice Thomas said that out loud that unless it was in the Constitution when it was written it is not entitled to constitutional protection, contraception, interracial marriage, gay marriage. A lot of the privacy issues... The hope of the Constitution, the aspiration of the Constitution is all men when it was written are created equal in the struggle that all of us have had in our country and we're all part of is to broaden that definition where the women and they're there now where African-Americans who are not included and the goal has been to to broaden the definition of the aspirational goal that we're all equal under the law we shall have equal opportunity and the Supreme Court in this decision is reversing that. The other thing, this conversation reinforces for me how quickly these issues have come up. So this is not some theoretical issue that we're talking about. So within weeks, the women are there with complications and issues. And you know with your history, because you saw this was happening when you started pre- you were there with Dr. Beecham, right? Yes, I was. God bless him. In Congress in America, I understand that there was a vote on the House floor around access to contraception and there were 195 people who voted against that. Well, that's right. Just for perspective here, for people who think the contraception is safe and that they will never do they'll never go after contraception that was really stunning. That never was really stunning to me. That's right. So I gotta say, you're on the front lines you know, sometimes people say my job is hard. It's got its challenges and I work with some of the best minds of the 16th century, you know. So... But you're on the front lines. You know, you're dealing in the real world with this woman who faces a lethal situation, a life-threatening situation in just the stress that that woman is under in the responsibility that you have to give your best advice and to be calm and comforting and supportive. That's hard and I just want to again say thank you for the work that you do. Question, if you're still taking question. Yeah, go ahead. When we're talking about the financial implications of this and Medicaid, what is it cost to get an abortion in Vermont? I know how much it costs at Planned Parenthood, but... Yeah, but that's the most important information. Yeah, so in Vermont we are fortunate in, unlike other states where there have been barriers to abortion access long before. You know, these most recent decisions where the Hyde Amendment prevented using federal dollars to cover abortion care. Private insurers could not cover abortion care. The actual financial barriers that people across this country have faced accessing abortion care have been real and present for a very long time. In Vermont, that situation has been different for most of our residents in that we haven't faced all of those challenges, but the Hyde Amendment has been a really large barrier for many people here as well. This is where, if you've heard about abortion funds across the country, they do incredible work and continue to do incredible work to overcome these financial barriers for people and are really stepping up in this moment to cover travel costs, child care costs. But, you know, anybody can call us, you know, at Plain Parenthood and get, like, a really clear answer about what their coverage is, how to access those abortion fund monies, you know, to help people sign up for state insurance programs. And so we're lucky here that the financial barriers to accessing the care are much less and very few people have to pay those out-of-pocket costs because of that and abortion funds. Do you know what percentage of patients seeking care are reliant or needing abortion funds? I do not have those numbers on the top of my tongue. I can say that the majority of our patients qualify for Medicaid insurance, so that we do, our patient base is primarily lower-income people. So I would guess that the people needing assistance at least mirrors that, but it's probably larger than that because we know that the cap on eligibility for Medicaid is still very, very low with regards to affordability. In other words, you can be making more than that Medicaid eligible amount and still not be able to afford healthcare. So we also have other sources of funds that we patch together to make sure that we can provide care no matter what. So we have a sliding fee scale. We make sure that we never turn patients away. All patients are welcome. We provide care to people no matter what. As it says there on the wall. There it is. That's great. I got a quick question that's okay. I guess for Congress and Walt given this Supreme Court decision, what are some concrete actions that you were trying to do in Congress to ensure that abortion access could be, you know, accessible in all across the nation? Well, you know, Congress can act. The Vermont Legislature can act. And we can pass legislation, the Women's Health Protection Act that codifies reproductive freedom as we have with Roe. We pass that in the House and it's only the filibuster in the Senate that's stopping us from passing that. So Congressional legislation could overturn the Dove's decision by providing legislative protection for all women across the country.  We did that in the House and there was support in the Senate for that. So this takes action by voters in all across the country to send to Congress representatives and senators who are going to stand up and restore the privacy protections that we enjoyed as a country and as citizens pre-dobs. So that's very much within the power of Congress to do if we can get the votes. And that's why elections matter. I am very fond of saying and reminding everyone, elections absolutely matter. We have basically two votes in the Senate that are preventing a lot of forward progress on many issues right now. You know, and I do want to say something about how divided the country is. We all know that. You know, January 6th happened. It's the first time in history of our country we've had violence a violent attack on the Capitol in an effort to stop the peaceful transfer of power. And what has happened with the Dove's decision is it is added to the division at a time when we absolutely need more unity. We need more collaboration. We need more mutual respect and acceptance. And when you have now intensified that division with the Dove's decision it's exactly the opposite of what we need in order to heal this country and to work together and to face some of the major challenges that affect all of us whether we are a Trump voter or a Biden voter. And that's the political implications here that are so bad. I mean I don't want to diminish because most important is the individual right of that woman to make her decision about what's best for her. But there's broad political implications that are intensifying this division that all of us know is really bad for our country. I have a question. You talked a little bit about how demand for reproductive healthcare has changed and I was curious if how the closure of four health centers in Vermont, one in New Hampshire in June has impacted that. Yeah, and if you could speak a little bit more about that. Yeah, I mean it's a complex healthcare landscape. I think you know as the congressman had mentioned it's a very divided country. We've had a lot of challenges as a country over these last couple of years and healthcare providers across the country separate from this have been called to respond to a global pandemic. We're now being called and in some ways sexual healthcare providers uniquely to yet another public health emergency this week. We're places like Planned Parenthood are on the front lines. It does take a lot of resources to provide a safe, medically accurate patient centered healthcare through all of this and you know we have fallen prey to some of those forces that the entire healthcare industry has at just the wrong time, right? So I can't sugarcoat it and say that access is the same in Vermont as it was before those closures. We have done our absolute best to continue to provide services our access to abortion care is completely unchanged. In fact we've been able to expand it and begin to offer telemedicine medication abortions during this time. Our telehealth program really expanded exponentially so that some of those people in impacted communities could access services but it is a very difficult time to be a healthcare provider and to be a reproductive healthcare provider. Thank you. Well thank you all. It's really wonderful to be with you. What a great last note there. Go Kansas! You know what I so admire is that the work needs to be done and figure out a way to do the work to get the work done. It's like the Vermont way. In Washington and the Supreme Court we should be making it easier to do a hard job. We can't make a hard job easy. But we can make a hard job harder. That's not what we should be doing. We should be making a hard job easier. I mean I think about the training you guys go through. You've gone through and what you've done and you have to deal with people in stressful situations. And I don't think any of us appreciate what it's like when that person comes in and is so vulnerable and is so unaware and they don't know what's involved. It's new for a lot of them and so it's a combination of your real medical skill and training with being caring and comforting and handling in a good way. And that's what I find so appalling about this decision. I mean who are these justices that don't have a clue about what the daily reality is for this vulnerable person who's a good person and wants a future and wants a family and wants to be part of the community. And then these barriers are set up where they're terrified and I just say thank you for the medical providers. You're doing God's work and I just think you're great. And I think it's precisely because you all do see the issues up close, up close and personal every day. That's why none of us is going away from this work. Yeah, so you get this court and it's all abstractions and you know this is real. So anyway, thank you. I think all of us in Vermont appreciate what you're doing. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much Congressman Ross. We can't thank you enough for convening this conversation and you're continuing to lift this issue. I get embarrassed when you thank me because I'm just doing my job. I mean you have the hard job. But thank you.