So my talk is going to be very different than the previous one. If you are not directly involved in crop management and you don't do too much fieldwork after on your farm, this talk may not be of your interest because I was talking about a lot of technical stuff in the talk. So weed is something that we all have a little bit in our home, yard, garden, farm. You know, some people manage better, some people don't. This also depends on how much time and the money you actually spend on it. For most of the people, I should say for the majority of people, whenever they have weeds come up or any type of insects or disease come up on their crops, typically the first thing they think about is spraying pesticides. I don't blame them. That is the most effective way and quickest way to get rid of some of this stuff. Today I'm going to talk about potentially reducing some of the herbicide volume that you spray because they're short and they're expensive these days and also increasing the sustainability with cover crop because if you have cover crop in this field and you use the cover crop to cover the ground naturally, a lot of those cover crop can actually surprise, suppress quite a bit of weeds for you. For example, you can utilize multiple strategies. Natural cover crop would be the best because it's going to be the cheapest way for you to grow your own straw residue instead of paying people to get pine bark, needles, or fabrics like those. Those weed tarps or weed fabrics are actually quite effective if you want to use them.  It's good and bad at the same time, but all these are considered to be physical weed control. You're basically including a barrier over the soil or the top of your field to prevent weeds from emerging. This strategy has been used on multiple types of crops, including row crops, vegetables, fruit trees and you can see all the pine barks covering around the blueberries and then you get Bermuda grass occupying the rest of the area. This is actually a very good strategy because you're not going to have much weeds from anywhere from coming up, so this picture looks pretty good. You know, fabrics, that's something that you can always use when you have perennial crops, seems to work better on perennial crops than any crops. Alright, so talk about cover crop a little bit more. That's going to be the main focus of the talk. So we run lots of cover crop study every year. Most of these are in the row crops. I've done some work with vegetables a couple years ago as well. So for this trial, everything was clean. We'll terminate the cover crop. Just see if we all right. There's no nothing else. And then if you have a lot of weeds in the field, particularly the broadleaf weeds, they will penetrate through your cover crop residue and then they will explore any holes that you have in those cover crop and establish themselves. So it didn't take long but two weeks later you can see this thing showing up in your cover crop area. However, that is still a lot better than if you don't cover the ground at all. Because if you don't, this is how much weeds you can have in a bare ground area, you know. So cover versus no cover, there's a quite a bit of difference. On some of the small seed weeds like pigweed or pomegranate or grasses, you can get over 60% even 90% natural suppression because of cover. All right. So some people ask me before, does cover crop residue work on all weeds species? The answer is definitely no. So in this test, we plant four different weed species in soil flats. Each soil flat was filled by organic soil. So we plant morning glory, sickle pot, pigweed and crabgrass in all those flats. We either we don't cover them at all or we cover them with different amounts of civil rye green straw and we harvest it from the field. You can see from morning glory whether you cover 2,500 pound or 10,000 pound, it does not make much difference. Morning glory will have a way to penetrate through the cover one way or the other because the seed size is pretty big. It has a lot of pushing power. For sickle pot, we see a little bit reduction in germination but still not too much because the seed is fairly large, close to soybean seed size. For pigweed, it is more effective when you have more residue covering the ground because the seeds are very small and they don't push very hard or they cannot push very hard during the germination process. Crabgrass is similar to pigweed. Looking at some data, the four colors of bars represents for weed species. For crabgrass and palmar, you can see how the germination decreased as the civil rye biomass increased on soil flats. However, for morning glory and the sickle pot, those germination rates stayed flat for most of the time. They did not respond to cover part residue very well. So this is a picture I found on the internet. I don't know who took the picture but it looks pretty good and I kind of curious how the gas civil rye established so thick around the plastic. That was a couple of years ago so we started to do some of our own trial, try to figure out the best way to establish civil rye in between the plastic beds. Our initial attempt was to rototill a strip in between a cover crop in early February and then this is how after we strip till the cover crop area and then we formed the bed in those bare strips. The issue is the strip till was wider, way wider than the bed and then this creates a bare ground gap right next to the plastic bed. That is not good. You can see the two strips bare ground that we also rototilled on each side of the plastic bed. All these bare ground strips created a lot of weeds down the road and they get really weedy, you know, see that two strips right there. That's basically where I didn't have the cover crop. It was all occupied by crabgrass and not such. So to improve the way we do things we'll adopt a different strategy the following year. So this time we established the plastic beds in the fall in October. We did it early and then instead of playing with the rototiller and the grain drill we didn't even use a grain drill this time. So after we formed the bed and you know it was all just a bare dirt you know fresh teal dirt and then we spread very heavy rates of cereal rye seeds over the top of the whole section on top of all the beds and then we basically just rely on the rain to wash all the cereal rye seeds into the roll middle because they don't stay on top of the plastic. The rain eventually washed off all the seeds into the roll middle and naturally established so the rye was able to naturally establish to ensure seed soil contact we actually use a tractor to run in between the beds a little bit you know to kind of run the seeds into the soil a little bit and then we also put down a good amount of fertilizer particularly nitrogen as in the beginning you know after we spread and also we fertilize the cereal rye before joining stage. So you can see in February I got some really thick rye and some other cover we have some other cover climbing this test as well they get real thick you know you still get wild mustard or wild reddish you know here and there you know in the roll middle but compared to the non-treaty check barragorn roll middle which is totally occupied by the weeds is a lot better to have your cover crop there and also before termination around the end of March we get pretty tall and really thick cover crop in the roll middle you cannot even walk through it we also had some treatment with our crimson clover to increase the nitrogen a little bit for the soil so if you want to mix some legume with your grain cereal grain cover crop you can do that as well so this is you know the two plots where you have some plots with full of cover crop and the legume versus full of wild reddish all kinds of winter weeds in the middle all right so that's the difference between the treatments before termination before transplanting so four weeks after transplanting the non-treated beds were full of weeds you know non-treated plots they were covered by weeds all kinds of different weeds this is where we terminated the winter weeds and lay down the chateau or your row crops called valor it's the same chemical this is where we burn down the winter weeds and lay down the chateau you can still kill all the weeds that that that exist in the in the area where you don't have to cover crop but it's going to take these amount of chemicals and potentially redid the application to do it and also when it gets to spraying chateau or most of the herbicides over the top of vegetable beds you don't want to do something that we did because when we spray chateau we drifted on the plastic and then after it rains they wash all the chateau into the blending hole this is why we didn't have much pepper or watermelon on these beds in the first place so this is something definitely causing concern if you have a big old self-propelled sprayer and you spray not only the royal middle but also spray over top of the tarp you got to have these amount of rainfall irrigation and plant back restriction all those all those good stuff before you can plant if you plant too soon before the herbicides are washed off from the plastic you're going to end up with some empty planting holes you know transplants are dead we also had a tree where we established the white clover it is a good strategy for perennial crop I think if you have white clover strips in between your blueberry your cherry trees or apple trees or you know peach trees you know I think that would be a good strategy you may still have to spray that strip you know right next to the crop you know or right around the trees because you don't want to have these type of perennial cover crop competing against your trees you might have to spray individual tree and kill a circle for a couple feet wide you know or radius something like that so in this test we basically throw in white clover as a interesting idea to play with establish yourself pretty well after one season after one winter and and then it was getting pretty thick in the summer this is a perennial crop it's a dutch white clover and you can spray to 40 on it to kill other broadleaf weeds but the problem is all these green cover whether these are green weeds or green cover crops they tend to draw insects and they also increase your disease pressure in the field so my phd student observed the significant more watermelon disease you know in the white clover plots that's something to think about when you use perennial cover crop in an annual production system all right for civil rye and crimson clover treatment we rolled it down green actually we didn't roll it we basically just use tractor to run run this thing down in the rolling middle and no herbicides will spray up to this point when the picture was taken all the weed suppression came naturally from the cover crop compared to the non-treaty check picture i showed this is how much we're suppressing you get naturally from the cover crop residue you know so far no chemical has been sprayed at at this point this is a civil rye and crimson clover rolled down green and after we rolled it down green we put a chateau over the top of the roll middle we probably killed a few transplants because the drift but still the weed control was pretty good compared to where we just rolled it green and didn't spray no pre you know pre is chateau in the roll middle all right this is a non-treaty check eight weeks after transplanting and then this is a chemical control background plots started with chateau four ounce and then post with sandia 0.75 ounce pepper seems to recover a little bit from this uh the chateau or battle drift but still we lost a lot of plants here but you can see the the roll middle stayed fairly clean eight weeks after planting all right this is a white clover plots looks like white clover did a good job holding most of the weeds back if a disease is a concern for the uh curcurbits for rye and crimson clover this is the plot we rolled down green didn't spray no pre no chateau and the only sandia to the roll middle all right it did okay job but but you can see a lot of morning glory over here in some of these plots because they didn't get no pre in the roll middle no chateau this is where we rolled down the civil rye and crimson clover green we spray chateau over the top and over the top of the roll middle over the roll middle and then did a post-immortal emergence of sandia in the roll middle when you spray two shots of chemicals in the roll middle and plus cover crop residue we start to get pretty clean even at a very weedy area now we have seen this effect in the past in roll crop many times as well so uh valer is the roll crop version of chateau you know so basically we sprayed same rate of valer on civil rye residue versus on barren ground conventional teal plots after we plant the peanut 68 days after planting we didn't spray any any herbicides after pre and then 68 days after planting i still had four old plots four old peanut almost over left the canopy where i spray full risk of valer on civil rye residue versus where i spray on barren ground conventional teal plots this plot was full of full of sickle pod and pigweed so that's the combination effect of herbicide and a cover crop which always work very good all right in terms of other potential treatment if you do have a lot of nuts itch you know like what i have here in the non-treaty check one treatment that worked out pretty good as a residual was highest rate of chateau combined with high residue magnum this can only be sprayed in the roll middle but if you're able to manage your your nuts itch very aggressively for a few years you will reduce the overall pressure in the whole field you can see the clear cut line where we cut off our boom and and didn't spray beyond that point it's like almost straight line cut by a knife you know that's how good a chemical work in this case all right um so i'll show some more plot pictures from different herbicide treatment this is something some of the plot work we sprayed a couple years ago cleanest one is the aflige chateau there's no doubt as long as you don't drift onto the tomato i'm glad in that case we didn't drift on the on the bed on the tarp you know and the keel the transplants versus sandia peri trifle and peri or tricor peri for tomatoes and you can see a difference here for sure tricor which is mass rebusing it's also big soy bean herbicide did a fairly good but still chateau was hard to beat you know a lot of vegetable growers use trifle and and feral this type of yellow herbicides they still work but they don't work very well compared to some other chemistry in terms of weed suppression all right i'll also show some data real quick you know we have grass any grass carpet weed ragweed pigweed you know in this in this test this is this is where we spray the tomato roll middle chateau was very hard to beat almost giving us over 90 percent or 100 percent for all these weeds reflux is in the same chemistry has the same chemistry of chateau those are those work very similarly just not as hot as chateau but reflux roll middle did a pretty good as well this is a tricor you know it did good on pigweed and ragweed but not so good on carpet weed and any grasses all right for sandia trifle and dew you know they were just trading behind quite far compared to the top options in watermelon chateau was still the cleanest some other treatment like strategy or curbie you know or sandia we have a lot of grasses came up in those plots still looking at the same for weeds the treatment suppressed the treatment that suppressed those weeds the best was chateau reflux had a similar control but chateau was still the best you know for ragweed pigweed that's basically 100 percent control all right and then you know strategy sandia command dew magnum yeah variable results you're not going to be very pleased with some of this stuff used by themselves including trifle you know so that was the individual herbicides we also sprayed a few two-way mix when we just laid the bed and see how long they hold the weeds back trifle and we sandia didn't do a good job on the grasses although many grower believe yellow herbicides can hold better grasses that's not always true you know but you get this much of grasses they don't work very good this is chateau forest by itself you know roll middle was clean we got some big old crab grass came up from the old plastic from the holes on those plastic this is reflux with dew fairly clean the roll middle just a few sickle pond you know get hurt and still made through the ground strategy by itself at full rate not too terrible but you still got some grasses came up along sickle pond this is chateau trifle and sandia I believe if you take sandia out just do chateau with trifle and you're going to get very similar results as well this is reflux by itself because reflux is in the same chemistry either as a batter or chateau so chateau or reflux they should both look good chateau probably will last a little bit longer than reflux if you use a higher rate all right so talk about the equipment a little bit most of our growers are fairly small in specialty crops they don't have a whole lot of acreage many of those are for upig or support a farmer's market some of them may have a roll the roll side a vegetable stand you know just sell produce off the road so in that case most of the growers like to use smaller equipment you know they require a lot much lower initial investment they are easy to manure in small fields they are user friendly when you have to deal only with you know say 10 acres or 20 acres so you can afford to use some of this small stuff and still get a job done which is an advantage but you know you you just have to utilize some of these smaller tools to properly spray the roll middle you know to do a rototill or to cut the weeds with bush talk you know whether this is mechanical control or chemical control or cover crop combined with chemical control they all work some work better than the other but the key thing is to prevent a field being overrun by weeds and the weeds you know produce a lot of seeds because you just leave the fields they're sitting there for very long time in the summer didn't do anything until you're ready to plant a crop you know you can still clean up the weeds but the weed see the bank the amount of weed you see in the soil is very high so that's why the fallow management or weed management during the fallow period is very important you still have to bush hog that field consistently or repeatedly and prevent the weeds from overrun that field all right and also go back to this herbicide injury issue you know multiple herbicide including sandia reflux, stew, or chateau they all have the capability to injure your transplant if you spray them before your transplant and they got washed if and if they got washed into the planting hole you know that's this is sandia damage or squash you know reflux damage on uh on comparebis uh this is on candle lope uh and also I showed this picture before this is all our chateau damage on pepper and a melon you know pretty much kill all the peppers we transplant because of the spray drift you know probably drift a little bit when my student workers spray these so this is something that you all have to be careful when you spray in the room middle and also talk about the herbicide injury and the crop stress detection a little bit so these days we started to fly a lot of drones I have three drones now I'm fixing again the fourth one spray drone, scouting drone they're all very capable of doing many different things there are new tools they enable us to scout the field much more precise this is a peanut field and you can see the good and not so good area in RGB and NDVI all right all these yellow spots were caused by water logging magnesium or calcium deficiency because calcium and magnesium are important for PETA the last summer was just super wet you can see at October the fourth before digging before a crop harvest there are still plenty spots in this field that peanut barely overlapped the ground and they become very yellow all right that's a prolonged stress water uh excessive water uh stress and also the nutrient deficiency you know but there are some good areas over here around the pivot also I talked about chateau water injury this field was also injured by water this whole section here was caused by water damage all right because when peanut was cracking the ground it rained and washed water into the crack this was caused by herbicide and then they stunted the peanut quite for quite a while almost for two months and then being a slowly grow out of this after a grower put a um a foliar fertilizer over the top so you can see the injury slowly recovered however where he had all this nutrient deficiency and water logging problem down here around the tarnaces that deficiency only progressed and getting even worse you know down here because the nutrient deficiency will not correct by itself all right but this this images or this analysis does give a grower a tool to precisely manage the field and correct some of those issues identified in the previous plot you know for example drainage issue the water logging issue nutrient deficiency ph problem disease or nematode problem you know for example because nematodes and ph you know sometimes you know that people have those problems they will not move in the field you can see the pattern fairly well all right this is a how a good field look like you know this whole field was like 40 some maker and then the whole field in dv is 0.87 it's a below the roof number very very high so at the end of the season this cotton field was able to yield almost three bail you know that's very hard to do almost a 1300 pounds all right so if your crop has good yield potential we can usually see it before the crop was even closed or being there before the crop was close to hardest this is a new tool that you will see in future all right this is our new sprayed roll it works for multiple crops including vegetable fruit trees row crops pasture and hayfuges basically wherever you need to spray it is controlled by gps actually it's controlled by rtk signal even more precise than gps so precision level between the passes is usually within two centimeters or within one inch and you can spray this for this model you can spray about 20 to 25 acre per hour and one controller is able to control three at the same time so efficiency can actually be multiplied by three it will spray over the top when the field is too wet your ground sprayer cannot get into it and also spray wear section wear shape fields narrow section where a big sprayer may not work well and also spray on terraces you know fields that are not level because whenever you spray on terrace one side of boom is scratching the dirt the other side of the boom is sticking into the air and cause a lot of drift and also when you turn on a round the terrace the inside the inside you know the boom on your left well i should say on my left but the inside the boom puts out more product than the outside of the boom because outside the boom travel faster around the circle so that usually translates into herbicide damage and also for specialty crops this will give you a totally new way a different way to spray fruit trees you know whatever type of fruit tree this is because you don't have to worry about all the drift created by air blaster you know uh although there are some newer drift reducing air blasters out there and this one will also spray a field of cucurbits whatever type it is after one i start to run because when we were running that uh vegetable trial have to spray fungicide every two weeks and every time when we spray the fungicide every two weeks we have to pull all the watermelon lines up pull the lines back up to the row because so we can walk in the row middle and spray it was a pain you know unless you have a big old sprayer that can cover a lot of rows at the same time but still it's going to run over have to run over in the middle somewhere somehow so you can only plant so many rows and then you have to leave one row out for the sprayer to ride on you know and that's if you have a big sprayer with 120 foot boom you know if you have to budget 400 000 ish to buy something like that so if that's a concern or that's a limitation these spray drones are much more affordable and they can spray over the top of the crop of africanity overlap for example cucurbits or corn whether this is sweet corn or field corn you know somehow like that you can spray over the top just fine um but for for ground sprayer you don't want to run over the crops so how does efficacy look like for those spray drones the answer is unknown we don't have enough data but based on some of the work that has been done elsewhere I know I stole this picture from Dr. Zing in a virginian attack you can see this is a gulfosinate liberty or rely efficacy you know liberty or rely herbicide he sprayed with 15 gallon per acre using a backpack didn't kill the thick grass and bottom was green you know this happened all the time for counter herbicide like gulfosinate and peripod you know like rommaxon where he sprayed with drone at a two and a four gallon break for the grass controls a lot better I believe this is because the drone has a downward pushing force pushing force called propeller wash and this propeller wash force opens up the thick grass lay them down so your spray droplets can penetrate to the bottom and kill even the bottom of the plant so if this effect can be replicated this year in our trial in Alabama we will feel a lot more comfortable to recommend growers spraying with a spray drone and we're trying to learn as much as we can from these new technologies so we can educate growers the best way to utilize these new technologies all right I appreciate for the time hopefully I stayed in my time slots to make the presentation I'll be told I can talk about 30 to 40 minutes


So, I was going to start my presentation by gauging the energy in the room, but I think that just woke us all up since it's the last, I'm the second last presentation of the day. So yeah, my presentation is actually about Mark. Mark is a cool guy. We saw that yesterday how Mark could just go thanks to Aritz Medina's presentation, so here I'm actually going to present, joking aside, a love story. It's between Mark and Listin. Okay, this is so bad. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Yeah, so it's actually about marking as a term, marking, selecting and listening, readability, things like that. And the focus of this presentation will be about switching from the mouse being your primary input device when you use a computer to the keyboard. So that's what the subtitle is about. So who am I? My name is Juan Carlos Corona Romero. I'm a software developer engineer in Canada. The engineer is a protected term, so I can't call myself an engineer there. I don't even know if I am. I like the idea of an engineer actually being held accountable for things because nowadays, you know, I could do something to screw up someone's digital life in a really bad way, and I want to, yeah, people should be held accountable. So yeah, I work for a company, a small company in Vancouver, Canada, known as Evident Point. My role there is that I, the web technology is what I like, and I've really grown in that role at Evident Point. So, yeah, WebTech is my jam, and they really like that. And Evident Point really is trying to push web technology forward. We like the idea of progressive web applications. Most of our products are steering towards that and embracing the open web platform. And that's my GitHub short username. So, as I mentioned already, a little bit of Evident Point, but Evident Point, we provide digital publishing solutions with eBook, with our numerous years of eBook and eLearning expertise. We provide, we contribute to open source efforts, mainly through this project known as Redium, which is to develop an open source ePub reading system, but now it's gone beyond that with keyword Redium architecture. I'm in a little bit of hypothesis on the side here and there. And, yeah, like I mentioned, ePub, PDFs, we used to be a PDF-first company, but we're, we're shifting towards HTML documents and things like that. So, we also have cool tools that let us, like, internally convert PDFs to ePubs and so on. So, I'm gonna set some context, and this, we have a product, a commercial product known as Active Textbook, eBooks plus annotations in some form. So, the idea, the premise is that you upload a book, you read in a web-based viewer, as I alluded to, you enrich the content with various forms of annotations, rectangular-based annotation visualizations in different ways. You can also create interactable elements, like images, videos, quizzes, but, you know, there's also the core highlights and notes. And I'm gonna show you a little bit of that. This is to set the context, kind of a little bit of a plug too. I mean, yeah. So, this is our sample. And as you can see, these are the various forms, point-based comments, discussions, you know, you have these, you can create something by clicking somewhere, comments. I think this is read-only mode, but I can't select, I can't drag and select a square here to create something. But you have these overlays. Like, these are enhancements on top of the book. This is an open-stack textbook. So, you can see you can, we can click on a video about, I don't know, referencing the mosh, but somehow there's a link and so on. But there's one problem, I'm using my mouse for all of this. I can, I can use our toolbar and so on. But then again, so what happened with this product over time, actually, and I want to send, this is, I will go into that, but I want to take a break here and look at these. I really like numeronyms, if you don't know what they are. So, this stands for internationalization. And between the I and the N, there are 18 letters. And that's kind of like an acronym too. I'm guessing people here in DC like acronyms. So, that's why I'm showing this here. There's also another one, localization. And then there's, of course, W3C, the World Wide Web Consortium. So, you can also use them for repeating characters. And there's this one, which is my name, because it's very long. And I think maybe this, I was hoping this would be a numeronym for something, but I don't know. So, maybe it inspired something? And then, but this one's really what I want to focus on. And this is our ally, this is accessibility. So, a company approached us, and that's to highlight that, a company, a consortium of higher level education institutions that develop solutions for education and so on. They approached us and they said, we like your product, but it's not accessible, and we really care about that. So, can we help you, can we collaborate and make your product, you provide our product, I mean, you provide the product, and then we tell you and give you some, you know, some requirements and can you go and implement those requirements in your product for increasing accessibility, and they did. So, I got, I didn't get directly tasked this, but members in my team did. I was aware from indirectly about what was going on, but it really started getting me thinking, as a web developer, how do I do this? How do I implement this? Or like, how do I start? So, and I'm a very practical person, pragmatic. I don't, I mean, nowadays I can, I'm more comfortable with reading specifications, specification level information, but, you know, the W3C published the WCAG, which stands for the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. So, those are the guidelines that we followed, and here are some extracts from there. So, there is a principle known as operable. User interface components and navigation must be operable. Navigation must be operable components UI. And the one I'm choosing here is this guideline for keyboard accessible. Make all functionality available from a keyboard, and this kind of sounds like a rule. So, there's another one as well, that I highlighted here, I selected. Another principle, the understandable principle. Information in the operation of the user interface must be understandable. Now, this one was a little bit more abstract. What does it mean? Guideline readable, make text content readable and understandable, but isn't it already readable? But, you know, like, not everyone can read visually. What if I have a visual impairment, or I have some disability where I can't read it, or I have a learning impairment where things are just not understandable for me. I need to be, things need to be pronounced. I need to be able to use text to speech. So, let me show you some of this. But before I do that, I want to go back a little bit to what we did with Unison. So, let's just go back to this one here, the baseline. I have a hit tab. Nothing's really happening, which is how I interacted the keyboard. Tabable components. But here, we have a lot more now. We can go, we can tab through everything. And I'm just going to let go of my mouse. Actually, I need to turn this thing on so you guys can see what I'm hitting, unless that's too distracting. Yeah, so, okay, let me just, let me, let me just use my keyboard and, all right, let's, let's look at the table of contents. Sweet, let's go through that. Yeah, and that seems like I can, I can go back, can search. I don't really want to search for something. I don't know if it'll work well. And then there's a text and speech setting here, which is, and then I can, oh, what happened here? Oh, I can probably use my arrow keys now and select some more stuff. Actually, let's pick a color. I like, I like purple, yeah. Green, I don't know if that contrasts well with purple, but let's use yellow. Playback speed's fine. All right, so how do I do TTS shortcuts? Okay, now let me, let me get out of this something and then just go to the main content. And all right, so I want to start, I want to invoke the text speech. So I forget how to do that because there's a new keyboard shortcuts that need to learn if I'm invested in this. So there's element navigation on and off. Okay, let's turn that on. Oh, cool, I can now curse, use my go through and some elements here. And let's go see if I can read word level. Granularity is fine. Sentence, maybe that's default. Start reading R. Someone on his cell phone will gain an appreciation for the difficulty in reading small sections of growth. Yeah, it's kind of loud. Someone trying to read on his cell phone will gain an appreciation for the difficulty in reading. Okay, good. Yeah, so it's supposed to go through, you can like go through the whole book and I think it just broke. Oh, no, focus changed. Yeah, when you're dealing with multiple iframes, it happens here, the focus is kind of weird. But I, yeah, so I think you get the idea now of Texas speech and how I'm using the keyboard for this. So let me go back to my presentation. So I've shown you that. Now let's move on to text selection. So think about text selection. How would you be able to do that in a web browser with just the keyboard? I drew a blank initially. Is that an anchor really? I, without using my mouse without, yeah, I need to set an anchor. That's right. We need to think about the primitives here. I need to set an anchor. But how do I set an anchor? How do I, I need, I think what I found was that you need a new form of operation and that didn't need the mouse. So let's go to Chrome and let's go here. And I can tap through elements, but I just don't know how to select text. Anyway, I found out that Firefox has a carrot browsing mode that you can invoke with F7. And it tells you about it here. You press F7. Pressing F7 turns on carrot browsing. It warns you here. Like this feature does this. Are you sure you want to do this? It's something you might not know about. Are you sure you want to do this? And actually it asks you every time you click F7. It's not, there's that option here. Do not show me this again. But if you don't click that, it'll warn you. So now I can click and it gives me like an I-beam. It seems like I can, I can't edit the text, it's read only. It's like content editable, but read only. Now I can move the cursor around with my keyboard. I can hold shift and I can start making selections. And I can start adding modifier keys to like, if I select shift and alt, like naturally an operating system, I feel like that goes through the words. And I can do, I think I can do some more than that. But yeah, so now I have this. But let's go to Chrome, because we all love Chrome. Doing F7 doesn't do anything. I don't think this is, I should have done my research on this. And that's why I wanted to be here and ask about what's the history between this or about this carrot browsing mode. But apparently Chrome has an extension you can add. It's marked here as accessibility. It's by Google. You can add it. I'm sure they use web technologies to implement this, which I'm going to start like reverse engineering, reading the source code if it's available somewhere and seeing how it works. Maybe we can make that a built-in feature with something like that. Add it to Chromium. That's, yes, that's because I think the rumor was that Microsoft got them to want them to do that. So now that I have that, I can turn it on and then I get, I think I get a similar experience, but I got to refresh the page because I know how that's how Chrome extensions work. Now there's a weird visual bug here with this page. So I'm going to go to the client test. And here I think it's, let's refresh that. I don't know, is it working? Yeah, it's working. Okay, so now there's not, the visual bug's no longer there. So I'm going to start selecting some stuff. And as you can see, the very familiar hypothesis Adder pop-up comes up. And I hacked it actually to just a little bit, a little UX improvement so I can, when I hit tab, the next tab will jump into the context menu because it didn't do that naturally. This, the tab order is determined by various factors and the Adder is actually the bottom most in the element order. So you'd have to tab through everything to get to it. So what I did was I wrote this change in the hypothesis source code, like 20 lines of code in the Adder.js that just like listens for the next key down. If it's a tab, it prevents a default and then it does that and then it lets go. Like it goes back to normal. It could be improved, but this is just a hack. So now we can do that and we can continue using the keyboard. I had space and this is actually pretty nice. The editor here is, I can't tab through it. And ta-da! I created an annotation. I anchored something with Carat Mode and I selected some stuff and I tabbed through the interface but now I don't know how to get out. How do I go back to the main content? But yeah, the experience is still, this still needs to be developed. And I just want to show you that there are a couple of issues on other browsers too. Actually, I'm going to move on to my next point because I'm checking time. But I'll use the next browser to test my next point. So my next, yeah, so we already checked that out. My next aspect here is, or I forgot the word, also screen readers. So I also thought about, if you don't know what a screen reader is, it's assistive technology for visually impaired users that you can get, it can read the screen and it can tell you some output with text to speech or with a Braille display about what you're seeing. And Apple, I'm not that very familiar with a lot of the screen reader technologies or screen reader software. So I like that Apple has one built into the operating system which I can just invoke now. And this was my little, this is kind of how it looks like. And let's go look at how to turn that on. So if you have a new touch bar MacBook, you can hit the fingerprint key five times. Accessibility options. I really hope I can change the volume. I think you can't, but I think I can. Okay, if you can help me out, that'd be great. Let's see. Yeah, that's it. Welcome to Mac. TheValde, Mark and Listen. Google Slides. TheValde. Window. Mark and Listen. Google Slides. Frame has keyboard focus. Open search or Xamant. Inacopem. Inacopem. Inacopem. Inacopem. Inacopem. A-R-G. Example domain. Frame. So you are currently on a frame, inside of web content to enter the web area, press control, option shift down arrow. To HTTPS Conan's Example Domain. Frame. Hotkey invention. You are HTTPS kilnum slash slash en dot Wikipedia. Escape button. You are currently on a button. To press this button, double tap anywhere on the touch bar. Escape button. You are currently on a button. To press this button, double tap anywhere on the touch bar. Stop. Yeah, OK, good. Thank you. I need to calibrate myself here. So what I want to show here is that I'm using Vivaldi, which is Chromium-based or Chrome-based. And it doesn't actually know how to read this, because there is some black magic to me. At first, it was black magic as to how can a screen reader built into the operating system be able to dive into the DOM. And apparently, there's a lot of it. It's a very complex process. But web browsers really need to actually expose this. I don't know if Chrome's doing it, but Vivaldi didn't do it. But there's something called the accessibility tree and accessibility object model that's being pushed. So hopefully that, in the future, improves. But I'm going to have to go with what's native here, and that's Safari. Space with code, space with Firefox containing window example domain. Sys Safari, example domain, window. Example domain, example domain, web content. You are currently on web content this. OK, I'm going to skip into here. You are currently on a heading level 1. Inside of web content, this DOM. I can use this. I can use this on Airbeam. This heading level, heading level 1. Example DOM, this domain, visited. This DOM, heading level 1. Example domain, this domain is established to be used for domain example. Example DOM, new list, domain, sys, select, letter by letter, I can use this as well. U4, illustrative, xin.u, u, u, m, u. I think that's another way where you just need to be comfortable. Example domain, selected. That's another way to select text with the key word. You are currently on a heading level 1. Inside example. Let me turn on the hypothesis book marklet here so we can get into Safari. Example DOM, this select domain is established. Selected. You are currently on a heading level 1. Inside of web content, to exit this web annotate button. You are currently on a button. Inside of web content button, hypothesis and location viewer frame. I'm conflicted. You are currently on a frame. To enter the web area, press Control, Option, Shift, down arrow. Index, so it's a little bit of a disconnect. Should I be using the voiceover keys? New, hide toggle, or we hide. New, type of, type of, new, hide, new page note, button. I don't know, but maybe I'm just not used to this. Empty. Now in example domain, window, list. M, this domain heading level 1. Example domain, you are currently on a heading level 1. Inside of web content, to exit this web area, press Control, Option, Shift, up arrow. Vastly configurable. You can tune it to however you need. And there's probably, if a website or a web app does a really great job with implementing those principles that I brought up from a WCAP, then the experience can get better. This domain is ignoring the annotate, button, edit text, A-E-L-O, add to post to public, button, edit, share this page. G-M-A-L-L-N-L-V-S-E-D, add to post to public, add post to down point, cancel down post to public, button. You are currently on a button. To click this button, press Control, Option, add to text, add to text. Edit text, post to public, button. You are currently on a button. To click this button, press Control, Example. You are currently on a heading level 1. Inside of web content, application. And let's go back to my presentation. And I actually didn't really know how to end this off. But after having a great conversation with Doug, he told me about this thing called the curb cut effect, which was so in the past, historically, you needed to fight for increased mobility around the city. And so now we probably take this for granted. I took it for granted because I didn't know about the history. But the curbs are cut. And originally, they were for people who needed to use wheelchairs or other mobility needs. But now we all benefit from it. If you have a bike, if you have a stroller, if you have one of those scooters around the city, you can use it to get around.  So what I wanted to conclude with this here was that if we start implementing these accessibility enhancements or start thinking about it in the way that we develop or we implement or design things, there will be features that will be very valuable, not just for those who are disabled or who really need them, but there will be a benefit for us all. And I really like this because I really hold to a high regard a website or something that uses. I like using the keyboard. And you've probably noticed throughout my presentation, I have this tile-based thing that I can use. I can open up a, actually, it's supposed to be tiling. I think it broke. Anyway, I don't have to use the mouse to manage my windows. I can go through, let's see if I have one somewhere. But I think you get the idea. I really like using just the keyboard. And I am benefiting a lot from this work. So that's how I can end this off. That was great. Thanks for bringing us back from the tornado one. Any questions? I see Jeremy approaching the mic slowly. Will you approach the mic? Maybe I should turn this off. Hello, I'm Lee. Cool. Thank you very much for that demo one. I've not really tried, well, not recently going through the whole process of creating an annotation and everything else. Interestingly there, that some of the work we did a while back to make hypothesis work better on mobile devices. So when you were at the fact that the adder actually shows up in the right place when you make a selection, turned out this actually solved the problem with the keyboard, excessive with at least making it work when you make a selection with the keyboard, although that wasn't the original intent at the time. I think that's a nice example of when a browser has events or hints that doesn't specify exactly what input device you're using. So here, for example, we listened to the selection events. It doesn't matter whether it's keyboard, touch, et cetera. So that's a nice advantage of leveraging the platform. One thing I wanted to say about inspecting the accessibility model, I've found Firefox very helpful. There's a separate tab in the browser which shows you the accessibility tree. I don't know. I have a feeling Chrome might have. I think Chrome does have something. Yeah, that's the view I was getting at that I've found quite helpful for debugging this kind of thing. Yeah, it's a more reduced version of the DOM where the attributes that matter are isolated away. One thing I would say is that VoiceOver does have an option so that shows just the thing on the bottom left-hand corner without actually reading any of the text out. That makes life, for those of us who have, yeah, that makes life much less painful. I should have turned that on, but yeah, thank you. But cool, thank you very much for showing us that. And yeah, I'd probably be interested to catch up with you about the change to the adder and the tab order. Sure, yeah, I can send you a patch, yeah. I really just want to thank you. I think that's really awesome what you've shown us today and it's usually exciting for me. It's the coolest thing I've seen all week and I'm really eager for us to, that hypothesis to benefit from your work on accessibility. So thanks. Thank you, thank you.


You've just tuned in into the recording of one of the presentations that was part of our webinar on how to link journeys to business goals. Florian Forma is the service design lead at NCR, a multi-billion dollar company. At NCR they are managing hundreds of journeys. So how do you make sure that all these journeys are linked and aligned to the top level business objectives? How do you make sure that you're working on the stuff that matters most and make sure that you keep and stay relevant as a service design practice? Florian lifts the curtains and shares how they are working towards that. Fascinating stuff. So make sure you grab your pen and paper and get ready to make some notes. Let's dive right in. All right, let me share my screen here. Get the technology out of the way. Are we coming through okay? Yes. Loud and clear. All right. Super. Yeah. Let me spend the next 15 minutes or so share my experiences here at NCR, how we link journeys to business goals. I'll give you a little bit of perspective and background as we go. And yeah, Mark, if you want to monitor the Q&A and throw in the question as we go along, that'd be great as well. So my group of really, really smart service designers, we are integrated within our experience design team. And for the last few years, we've been mainly focused on UX work, service design for UX, service design for new product development, these journeys that define new features, new experiences within the suite of the products that we sell to in a B2B setting, right? And more recently for about the last year or so, we have been asked to focus a lot more on the CX and the customer experiences, right? How is it to buy from NCR? How is it to be actually a customer? How is it to be serviced and supported from NCR, the end-to-end lifecycle journey? And then very exciting for us too, is we have been asked to really look at the employee experience, the internal experience, and it's really, really cool to work for a company where the executive leadership team believes that a good employee experience creates a good customer experience and really having that dependency and that philosophy and that support. So that's my practice, that's what we do. And a lot of the value is connecting the dots and seeing which capabilities, which pieces of our tech stack may serve our products, maybe used in our web CX experiences and maybe used internally to drive efficiencies at that corporate scale. Just a level set, I thought a chair sort of the hierarchy in which I think we think about business goals and how that interrelates with journeys, journey management, service design. We are very intentional at the core of it, and Jochim said this earlier, sort of the journey is not, it's a means to an end, it's not the presentation artifact. We look at the journeys as that connecting tissue that enables cross-functional collaboration, that enables us to focus on the right things, make better decisions faster and so forth. And they're just one part of the puzzle, right? Above that for us sits sort of the overall business goals, the North Star, if you will, whereas NCR supposed to be going, the business trajectory, if you will. And then since we are such a large company with different functional areas, different business units and so forth, there's a pretty intentional cascading of those high level business goals, a certain revenue goal, a certain customer satisfaction goal, NPS goal, and how does that cascade into the different business units? So that's the high level hierarchy that we have there. That then informs our journeys, the insights of StandShade from below, we measure, right? We listen to the market for data, we plug in wherever we can, tools and methods to get metrics and attach those then to the journeys. And then of course, there is the doing part. And for us at this scale, it's been really awesome to use journey management and the journey management platform here to be very intentional with hundreds and hundreds of opportunities and capabilities and solutions that we are managing to say, hey, where can we do what? Now, how do we link these goals to journeys? How do we link these goals to the specific opportunities to help us make better decisions? Be very intentional with our resources and with our direction. That's what I want to talk about. I want to make it a little bit more real and a little bit more specific, one more slide before I get into a specific screen share. So this is just sort of recapping that cascading, right? The high level corporate goals there on the top left, overall revenue, revenue mix, NPS, I just said this, that then cascades into group objectives, simplification, reoccurring revenue as examples there. And so those are sort of, I think of those as macro objectives, macro business objectives. And that then cascades into more specific micro business objectives. What is it specifically that we want to accomplish with a project or with a set of initiatives, with a new product launch, whatever it may be? Business results, how do we measure that specific outcome? What is then, how do we translate that into specific outcomes? And then on the right here, just some ideas for this conversation amongst service designers, what are some of the journey related initiatives that we can take that can drive those goals? So when I think about this as examples, user experience, business objectives may be improving the productivity, improving overall user satisfaction, the adoption of a specific feature, attach rate. And in italics here is the example that I'm taking to the right. So the adoption of the feature, maybe we want that feature to be used by 10,000 net new users. And to get there in the journey context, we may recommend an in-app guided experience and a campaign, different nudging approaches and so forth. Just a few examples, right? In the customer side, we may have business objectives like a close rate in the sales cycle and your recurring revenue numbers and pushing that up. The attach rate, attach rate being if we sell product A, how many people are also buying product B as a package, if you will. Really important for our business, better customer service, more efficient customer services, those kinds of things along again, the B to B customer journey and to end customer journey. So the example here, attach rate of product A to product B is whatever percentage, right? Journey related measures that we can take, education campaigns, recommendations, business impact, projections, automation, those kinds of things. Last one at least, employee experience. I'll go a little quicker on that. But satisfaction, retention, the overall culture, a lot harder to perhaps measure, but really, really important for any company out there, any organization out there. Productivity, those kinds of things. What's the business result? We have a culture where people feel safe to fail, psychological safety. That is not something that you just measure numerically, right? That's a survey that you have to get to that through other means, but it's a really, really important business result, if you will. And then on the right, you see some of the things that we maybe do and to get there, more comprehensive reviews from people to people, the way we approach project management, the way we approach debriefs and continuous learning, those cultural things that maybe things that a journey recommends. I want to dive into an example that sits in the world of customer experiences for that top down example that Mark mentioned. So let's dive into the specifics. Here are some of the group goals. Here are some examples of those group goals. The group goal may be meaningful, actionable insights. The group goal may be a continuous shift from the old way of selling hardware and software in a one-up to reoccurring revenue in a subscription model. It may be overall simplification. It may be expanding a wallet share. We have a pretty robust set of different offers that perform different things for these restaurants and stores and banks. So we may get in with one product. How do we add on additional products within that same customer concept of wallet share? So those are some of the goals in our group here. And if we cascade that down into the journey, we are diving right into the second phase of a six-step end-to-end customer journey from evaluate to purchase to onboarding to use to maintain to renew and grow. You see that there on the left on your screen. And we are zooming in into a moment of the buying experience. And our insights, our research has shown, okay, you know, help me know what to choose and help me create a quote myself, right? If those are the things that I want to actually enable the customer, how does that actually layer up to the bigger picture goals? Before I move over the slide, I also want to mention that we have a very robust culture around measuring and managing by the high-level NPS, Net Promoter Score. And we track that at the sort of the high-level journey level. It's a little hard to cascade down an NPS score into a specific action, a specific moment in a journey. So that's sort of more the guiding NOSTA overall is the collective of all the things that we do and pushing that NPS score up. Or are we doing something wrong? That's what that tells us, right? In that example step of the journey, how do we now cascade those bigger picture goals down? And I'm trying to move one of the windows here, so I can actually read my screen. There we go. So what we have here is, OK, if the challenge is that they want to be able, if the customer need is that they want to be able to do more things by themselves, maybe the opportunity for innovation in a broader sense here is this notion of self-service configuration of their solution. So it's not something that a sales person necessarily needs to do any longer. It's something that they can do themselves, just as an example here. And we'll be now able to say, OK, we have these bigger picture goals. We have these higher-level goals of simplification of wallet share, of asset service. We can drive these down and say, OK, here are now things that this opportunity answers to in terms of the goals, the close rate. You see that here in the top right, the close rate, the annual reoccurring revenue, the attach rate, right? How much of this am I selling with another solution, the overall CX efficiency? So now in our conversations, we can make that clear link between higher-level corporate goals and how this one specific project would help solve for that. We can dive one level deeper here, looking at the specific capabilities or solutions or features that make this happen. And we can cascade this down as well. And you see here, if you compare, we're missing one, right? We have close rate, ARR, and efficiency. We do not have attach rate. This specific idea of a next-generation customer self-service account may not be directly related to the attach rate. But it's one of those things that we need to create a better self-serve experience. So we can get even more granular in having those goals. Being very specific, one specific feature may solve for one aspect of the overall goal, but we may not answer to all, but several goals, several capabilities will then enable the overall response to the goal. So pretty granular, pretty detailed, and it helps us to be very, very actionable in our execution. Also, what do we measure at those moments? Can we actually pull in metrics from our sales organization, from Salesforce, and say, OK, what is the current attach rate as we're building this capability? And after we deploy this capability, do we see any movement in the attach rate? That tells us it gives us a correlation. It doesn't give us causation necessarily. There is something, there's a signal that's moving. We're now getting closer in terms of net business results. That attach rate is actually moving, which is pretty cool. But we don't know exactly if our customers really think that self-service experience had everything to do. What's the only thing that drove that attach rate or if there was a conversation with the sales person and those kinds of things? How do we get there in our workflow with the insights feature that friends that they do just released? It's cool to use that to document insights along the journey. We're also using it the other way around, where we're saying, OK, we do want to understand more about this moment in the purchase segment here in the buying experience and say, hey, could you guys run a new and different analytics report? We may have baked in analytics into that part of the website anyways, but can you run a customer report that specifically tells us where they clicked in terms of adding features, adding things to their basket, so to say. And same thing with the survey of the customers there. So it's kind of cool that we can now send upstream more specific, more qualitative research requests. So that's the top down. I'm just going to go real quick in the bottom up and then hand it over to you, Johan. One of the examples that I wanted to share is not the full walkthrough in the journey management environment, but I mentioned our work in the employee experience. And we did some discovery around the new hire journey mapping here and found some onboarding pain points. And we cascaded out from there and said, OK, you know what? Really what's behind that is one of the key reasons is faster, simpler availability of information, a push to people that are involved in the hiring process versus a pull for them to having to find this. In this case, we actually did one round of co-creative workshops with stakeholders to drive a little bit more engagement. But in this bottom up kind of scenario, ultimately what this led to was a high level business goal in the HR organization that is all around improving information availability and flows and also highlighting the availability of existing information itself, so an internal marketing campaign. So this would be an example where a bottom up is very specific, very detailed journey mapping project ultimately led to a establishment of a higher level business goal. OK, so Florian just shared a top down approach that helps you to align and connect your journeys to business objectives, making sure that you're working on the stuff that is most relevant. But there's also a bottom up approach where you allow your journeys to inspire new and better business goals. If you curious how that approach works, click the video over here. If you ask me, this way of working unlocks the true power of working with journeys. I'm really curious if you will feel the same after seeing that presentation. So click the video over here and I'll see you over there.


So we're here at the Embedded World 2018 and so is this the cool conference for you? It is a very cool conference for sure. I mean there's the conference aspect and there's also the show which is pretty tremendous. So it's been a yearly pilgrimage for me. It's pretty big and it's all the embedded worlds right here. Yes, all the embedded players are here. All the key, you know, SOC vendors, parts vendors, you name it, everybody's around. It's been a long day and there's one more tomorrow and tomorrow you're doing a workshop, right? Yes, that's right. So I mean the past two days I've been enjoying just walking around, meeting with people, catching up with whatever is the latest and tomorrow I'm doing a full-day workshop on Embedded Android. So a few years ago we did the video where you said Android is going to be for embedded. Yes. And it's going to be what Linux is for computers or something. I don't know if you heard that. But how about these Android things? What's the latest with that? So, okay. So the evolution of Android into the embedded space has been ongoing for a number of years. And initially, you know, I think that the perspective from Google was somewhere towards, you know, we like people using it in embedded systems but we're not doing anything special for it. And then they came out with Brillo, which was kind of like their initial kind of pitch to that space. And now with the Android things they're really kind of jumping essentially in front of that train and creating a version that works for the Internet of Things. And so Internet of Things is kind of like also a nice name for Embedded. And so, yeah, they're really kind of seem to be engaged in that direction. And they're working with the TechnX here to get out all these boards, developers, getting the song. Yeah. Right now, it's not open source yet. It's not launch kind of yet, right? It's like in the beta or something. Yeah, they've been providing a developer preview editions for a number of years now, I think. Yeah, ever since they took Brillo off the table and brought Android Things into the picture. So, initially, they had a number of dev boards and I think the kind of message or perspective has evolved to include songs as being kind of a preferred way of doing things. Because, you know, since they provide enablement for some of those songs, it's just a matter of developers taking that song and then creating a breakout board. So it's easier for developers to develop a breakout board, which doesn't have to have all the high-speed signals than to actually develop the actual chip and connection with RAM and all the other parts that have to go closely with it. So by using a song, you get that quote for free. Is the idea of the eventual vision, is the vision that you had originally with the Android for the embedded, is it going to be an app store for the embedded or is it to optimize the time to market for the embedded world or is it to optimize new ideas of more advanced things that people can't be doing before? It's an interesting question. I think there's... Embedded is so large, includes so many different things that it's hard to say exactly what possibly Google has in mind with IoT. I think when we speak of IoT, there's always the assumption that there's some kind of cloud element which, you know, kind of gathers data or processes data or whatever. And that work that they do for enablement for IoT will certainly serve other markets as well. But regardless of what Google decides to do directly with the embedded space, there is the fact that the sources are available today and people can take it and customize it to their embedded needs regardless of what specific initiative that Google is doing in that direction. And so Android is in a billion, multiple billions of phones and there's been some challenges in some of the, let's say... All of them, let's say. There's been some challenges in keeping the Android updated and now they got this cool new idea of they want to do treble. So that's a big deal, right? I think so. I think project treble is a major change to the architecture of Android. It's not something that users will see directly.  But I believe that on the long term it'll show a lot of benefits for the users themselves because it essentially provides a path for upgrades to future versions whereas in the past devices, consumer devices were mostly single or maybe two, three versions max. And with treble, you know, we could actually see that extended to four or five versions of Android being upgraded on the same device. And I guess the guys, for example, the guys at Lenaro are pretty involved in trying to help this getting kernel all the way back support updating the kernel, perhaps, because some of the Android phones never get new kernels and stuff. Correct. So, I mean, Lenaro's been doing a very good job at actually doing a lot of enablement for, if nothing else, just the hardware itself. But I believe that they've been working closely with Google for some time now to make sure that, you know, the proper support that's required for this is provided. And there was an announcement actually at Lenaro Connect, I believe last fall, about one of the LTS versions, which I think is 4.4 now being supported for about six years. Not just two, and that's amazing. Because, you know, that means that any vendor that creates a version on that will potentially benefit from updates for that kernel for a very long time. So, treble, is this kind of like magic? How does it work? Because is the idea that it's going to make software updates easier? Yeah. So, let me try to find a good analogy here for treble. So, essentially, Android is like building a house, right? And any house has foundations. And that's, let's say this foundation is hardware enablement. And in the past versions of Android, the way it worked is Google specified the house architecture. And then they said, okay, we need, you know, pillars here, pillars here, whatever it is. And then, you know, the manufacturers came with the foundation and the house would bolt on top of that. The trouble was, you know, when they came to a new version of Android, they might have changed the room or two, they might have reconfigured the bathroom or whatever, the plumbing was different. And then, you know, you'd have to redo the foundations if you wanted to actually have this new version of the house. With treble, what they're doing is essentially saying, okay, we are specifying now what the foundation has to look like. And we're putting a version number on top of this. So plumbing has to be, I don't know, version two. And electricity is going to be version three and whatever it is. And the new versions of the house will essentially be able to support those older versions of those basic components. So it'll say, okay, well, my version, say, this was eight and even one is nine. They'll say, okay, well, now nine can now support plumbing version two, even though there's a version three of plumbing that's been implemented. And say electricity was version three. And so nine will support three, even though there's a version four in, in version nine. And insofar as they do that, you know, when they publish the specification for the foundation and say, these are the parts and these are the versions for everyone. Insofar as they continue supporting those in future versions, it's possible to then take a new house and put it on an old foundation and it will start work. Right. And that's the magic of treble. That's really kind of like in a, in a nutshell, what treble gives us. Does it also make it easier to update the foundation? It does to an extent. I mean, obviously, so one thing I think that will happen is they've done a pretty good effort at spelling out what these foundations should look like. And I believe that over time, there may be some adjustments that may be required as they discover what works and what doesn't work. But certainly it's going to be, you know, moving, you know, a few versions in the future. It will give Google the, you know, the benefit of providing users with the latest version instead of them having to run, you know, year old versions. Because I think the basis for this, I mean, so why are they doing this? Because it's a major work. It's a major rework. And the reason for this is if you look at the statistics. So right now we're in February and the eight dot X version was released last August. And yet you'll find that the majority of devices, you know, 70% or around 70% are still not even running, they're not even running seven X. They're running the version before seven X or something older. Whereas if you compare that to say Apple devices, well, the iOS update, update came in September. And then the majority of devices are actually running that update. And that's, that's a problem, right? That's a problem where Google puts a lot of effort into making a new version of Android and users aren't actually benefiting from it yet. So the point of trouble is to actually allow Google to be able to seamlessly upgrade the users to these new versions as they come out without having to wait for the vendors to do all of the work. But is it correct that Android since the beginning has been designed completely kind of differently to iOS that actually it might not matter that much if you're not having the latest version? You still get access to all the most of the apps? That's correct. I mean, the API design is made to actually allow the applications to work on several versions. I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is the operating system itself gets enhancements from Google and those don't actually make it back to the users necessarily, right? And so the relatively, in a short relative period of time, users end up using an old version of Android that never gets an update. So the challenge that Google has, which at least I don't think Apple has, which Apple designs and manufactures its own hardware. So they control the entire ecosystem of devices. Google partners with a lot of companies to make their own devices. So then you have a much wider range of devices in the market and that's harder to solve. Is it also maybe possible that those foundations that came out are enabling more advanced hardware updates in the way that Apple didn't really update for several years? For example, the NFC came five years after Android had it, for example. Like QuadCores, they took five years later. All kinds of other, somehow Apple keeps their updates for later. It's just UI. Maybe it's not much more. I can't say that I track their products as close as Google. So I can't really say what they do and don't do and whether it's good or not. All I know is from the published numbers, their devices back for a number of years, delta years, they keep updating those devices to the newer versions of Android. And that's something that, you know, in terms of the Android ecosystem hasn't followed. And so trouble is a way to try to solve that issue. So is this going to help Android in the embedded world, the trouble stuff? Sure. Yes, I think so. Is it important to have updates? Not just that. So it's not just the updates. One other challenge as well with Android in the embedded space is embedded manufacturers depend on the BSP coming out from the SOC vendors. And that has historically been a challenge depending on what SOC you're using. And so with Treble, there's a window of possibility where a SOC vendor may create a BSP for Android and then that version of the BSP may support future versions of the platform. So in other words, you know, you may create a BSP for 8.x and that might still be usable with 9, version 9 of the framework or version 10 of the framework, right? So that gives more time, more lifetime into the BSP that's generated. Whereas historically, you know, Google comes out with a new version of Android every year and therefore the SOC vendors had to keep that pace and release a new BSP version for every one of those. So Android has been one of the most popular Linux distributions ever, right? I think it is the most widely used Linux distribution. Do you think Google has done a good job at not just the numbers but improving Android and Linux? Improving it for sure. I mean, so, you know, the challenge of having to run on so many hundreds of millions if not billions of devices brings a perspective that is unique, right? And so they've historically been able to bring feedback into this community saying, look, these are the challenges that we're facing. They're unique to our situation. And I think the, you know, especially in recent years, the Linux community has been very receptive to the experience that Google has gathered essentially by trying to answer all of these things. All right, so the workshop that you're doing, who's going to come to that? It ranges a lot.  But in this case, I mean, I have more people in the workshop tomorrow than I've ever had at Embedded World, so this is pretty cool. It goes on the whole day. It's a whole day. So essentially, I walk through, you know, most of the basics of the architecture so people understand, you know, if they've never seen Android before or the internals of it, they can essentially tend that and understand, okay, how does it work? And what are the major parts? And then, okay, how does these subsystems work and how do they relate to each other? What are the key things that people have to be aware of when they're looking at the internals of Android? And so the background of people is very varied. You know, given that Android can use a tremendous amount of different devices, people tend to come from all sorts of backgrounds to attend. I'm pretty happy to have Android apps on my Chromebook. Yeah. But there's one thing in Chromium that they haven't open sourced the whole Android support. Is there any chance you might have any idea why? I don't know. I'm not having a follow-up. Is there some secrets in how they do Android and they don't like to share it or it just takes them time to get stuff done? I can't speak for Google's plans or anything of that kind, but historically, what I've observed is that they tend to keep things proprietary until they feel that they've reached a certain kind of level of maturity and then they start making those things available. So, you know, that might be the same story with, say, Android Things, Android Wear, whatever, you know, a whole bunch of different things that they work on. So I can't speak of exactly the case that you just mentioned, but I think that's the pattern that I've seen. All right. So looking forward to cool day tomorrow? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And you have some other projects going on, right? Yes, I do.   And that was a great trip. So I kind of decided that I want to kind of repeat that. And so I've been investing some time in looking into hardware projects and stuff like that. So this was kind of like, this is something new that's on my radar. There's nothing cooler than hardware projects. Is there? Well, hardware. Can software by itself be as cool as hardware? Can software be as cool as hardware? That's an interesting question. Software can be very, very cool for sure. But I think hardware at this juncture is an interesting thing because for the longest of time, building your own thing, whatever it was, was pretty much out of reach of almost anybody. And there's kind of like an alignment of the stars right now where it's easy to develop your own mechanicals, relatively easy to develop your own PCBs and stuff. And it's actually kind of just kind of come out with a pilot of whatever it is that you think in a relatively short amount of time and also under a very relatively tight budget, so to speak. And it could be running Android. It could be running Android. It could be running Linux. It could be running anything in the world. What I think is cool about Android, but it's also a little bit mystical somehow, is that it's been there for about a decade. But the apps like Airbnb and Uber are so revolutionary. And there are a few others maybe. Yeah. But they're like, it doesn't come automatically, but it just suddenly might come like a killer app that changes the world. Sure. I mean, but I think you have to see the mobile device as one of the gateways that people now have to interact with a set of rich services. So essentially, if you've got a cloud service, then the mobile device becomes an enablement for it. And voice activation now is also another one. And with IoT in general, there will be more and more ways to essentially kind of interface with some rich services which are hosted in the cloud.