Okay Let's go. You're ready. Let's have a hand for cyber revolt, please All right. Hello everyone. I am Daniel. You might have seen me before. I sometimes speak about open source firmware And at some point I also had to start to look into more specific stuff So this talk here is about the internal management engine Sometimes also known as the manageability engine it always depends on, you know What website you find or what person you ask you might get either response or both? so let's see a little disclaimer first I Am not trying to blame Intel for anything they have done or something This year is not about whether we can trust Intel as a company or any other chip vendor or vendor in general Because I cannot read their minds. I don't know their intentions What we can only do is See what they put out in the public or What we find in the machines that we buy and on the other hand? We don't really know that much because Especially with the inter them e there is not very much public information So people try to figure things out There are forums. There are certain small projects like analysis tools and stuff But all of these are based on reverse engineering or educated guessing or whatever people could just figure out and Me especially I don't know very much about it actually So I'm just here because I'm interested in the field and at some point There was an event which made me look into it More about that later The agenda for today, I will give a very brief introduction It will be a very bold introduction though Into the entire field around firmware then I will be Switching over to the open source firmware stuff we do I Will briefly try to explain the hardware we know as Intel's x86 platforms then I will try to Give you a motivation to also look into what I have been looking into and tell you what made me look into it I will give you some entry points for analysis and eventually we will just get a conclusion and Start to think about what we just heard So for the introduction Who of you in the audience has already done something with microcontrollers Please raise your hands. Okay. We see lots of hands here And in fact we actually have like hundreds or thousands or millions of microcontrollers here, right? So all the lights we see over here their ESP 8266 that board you see in the middle there's Arduino and There is something which I like to call not the network of things because apparently you just need a network You don't really need the internet for it and we can connect all of those devices We can remotely control them and I'm now going to show you That what you have in your laptop It's actually the very same thing Now this is lots of bullet points, and I'm very sorry for it But this gives you a feeling of what we are dealing with here in your laptop You have multiple Such controllers which are very similar to the Arduino or ESP microcontrollers that you already know Some of them are for very very specific functionality So everyone knows the USB controllers. We have USB controllers. We have PCI Where other devices are connected? We have GPUs We have a whole lot more But the very core that's what is known as the chipset and the CPU It can sometimes also be one single chip like in this graphic here, which I borrowed from Intel Just adjusted the colors a bit to make it fit with the slides and here You can see lots of lines connecting all of those controllers Now there's some other controllers which are also started to look into They are called the embedded controller Which is an additional microcontroller on your laptop for power management for Controlling the charging circuit when you connect your charger to your battery. You will see an LED That's what this device is doing. It might be connected to a keyboard to your mouse And there is a very similar concept also for servers It's called BMC or a baseball management controller Its purpose is to remotely control a server So you don't have to actually go to a data center imagine you are administrating Five data centers all across the world You can literally be in all of them at the same time So that's why they came up with an interface to remotely control it and they've made a dedicated chip for it Which is also connected to many devices on the server platform Then there is one thing you might also have heard about a so-called TPM a trusted platform module And its main purpose is To give you a very small trust anchor From which you can run all of your top level applications below which is an operating system Which is actually running after a bootloader Which is actually started from your firmware which is actually loaded from your chipset And that's how deep the rabbit hole goes Now let's look at open source projects We have projects for all sorts of features around the cpu The cpu before Your laptop can even start up. It has to be initialized It also has to know the ram When you boot up a machine it doesn't yet really know anything about ram That's what the core boot project is doing Now today we have a bit of a problem because we don't have enough information To actually program core boot for modern machines So there is a different approach now You know the uefi or you Unified extensible firmware interface It's a bit of a different approach also to initialize hardware, but also to hand over to an operating system But the thing is there are sorts of drivers in there and stuff So we want to replace that with a linux kernel. That's what the linux boot approach is doing There are different implementations. There is heads. There is uroot And that's how we can start modern machines with a bit more knowledge For embedded controllers, we have the projects from google for the chromebooks There's lots of open source implementations, but they only apply to very specific hardware You can find all of those stuff on the web, of course And then system 76 is also currently working in that field for their laptops And eventually for the bmcs. I just introduced you to there is also two projects There is the open bmc project and the uroot project Okay, so that's how far we are But That's not what i'm talking about today. I'm talking about something else And that's why we have to take a closer look at intel's x86 hardware This here is an example of a platform which has a dedicated chipset And a processor This is also a graphic abort from intel once again Um, it shows you where all of those peripherals are connected. So again, we have usb. We have ethernet But there is more to it actually and you you can clearly see that this Chipset here it's quite a large box And there is a reason for it Because that's where actually most Of the chips are connecting That's why intel calls it the platform controller hub or pch for short Now let's look closer at the denverton platform Denverton is one of those model names for the platforms intel always comes up with these names And here we have a very brief summary of what peripherals we have And if you look very closely in the upper right corner There is two so-called engines mentioned One of them is the innovation engine The other one is the management engine Which we're dealing with today The innovation engine has a very brief description. It says it's something about innovation. It's something about firmware But actually I have not yet found any use for it But it's there in your hardware. So if you have a denverton chip in your laptop or wherever you might find it You have some features there, but I don't know what they are for Okay, so let's look at the management engine Today because the thing is hardware is involving The management engine today is not the management engine from a few years ago So with newer hardware we get Different chips over time They are attached to different other peripherals over time And they're given different purposes So basically the ME itself is just a microcontroller Like Arduino And it's part of your chipset If you have a combined chipset and main processor, it's in that one single chip, but that's where it is But that's not where it started. It actually started as the so-called active management technology The idea was that you could remotely control a device and provision it Just like what I described you as the baseboard management controller for servers It's the same thing, but for let's say laptops desktop PCs Imagine you're running a very huge company and you have hundreds of devices to maintain Now you have this BMC thingy for servers And this thing here for your desktop devices Now the question is why is it actually connected to all of those peripherals? First of all, there was a bit of a renaming recently It's no longer just called the ME. It's called the CSME Converged security and manageability or management engine It can load your firmware and verify it And with that firmware we are now talking about the host CPU firmware That thing that core boot can be doing or what your vendor's ui firmware is doing If that firmware Is not as expected Which means it's not signed with a certain key from either intel or your oem The equipment manufacturer which can be hp or asus or whatever Then your laptop may not boot That's a feature. It's a security feature Now the problem is if we want to legitimately replace the firmware with our own implementations We can't do it If this certain feature is activated It's also known as boot guard But again, this is not what we're talking about today. I want to look at something else This year is how your machine boots up On the left hand you see the flow I just described you What the ME is doing You press the power button on your machine The ME is coming up It's initializing itself first with its own firmware That's the rbe phase a bit more about that later Then there is a bring up phase which hands over to the ME operating system If that version of your ME actually has an operating system, which is not necessarily the case It will reset the cpu itself It will trigger the firmware on the cpu to start That's where core boot could take over or your vendor suvfi firmware. It loads some microcode updates It comes to the initialization phase where you get the ram and the cpu And eventually all the features you have in your chip set itself Until it can boot your host operating system Now at the same time there's two more chips even being powered on one is one is the pmc the power management controller Which also gets some updates or patches from the ME firmware And the ec the embedded controller. I already described you which is just running in parallel But in fact, these are all connected to each other And here are some of the features summarized which we have in ME So the active management technology is implemented for example in the linux kernel. There is a driver for it It can do hardware monitoring Like it can it can monitor if your chips are overheating It can have other sensors connected to it It can do power control That's why I just described you just like a bmc. You can power cycle your system through it You could update your operating system out of band. So not like using App get upgrade or something no instead you would just do it from outside So you could reformat an entire disk replace it with a new image You have a bit of storage And you even have a proxy for a keyboard and mouse And the video interface so it's like vnc literally That's what we know from the public documentation Now the interface that is implemented in the linux kernel has been extended a bit Now we have a dedicated chip which was pulled out of the ME the ish or integrated sensor hub It just does the very basic things I just described you about sensors just in a dedicated chip That's a good development actually because now we don't have a single point of failure which has everything We have a single point of failure which has everything but this part There is bias extensions in your host firmware There can also be certain libraries or drivers which are connecting to the ME You can control the ME through it If you have a business laptop You might be running the corporate version of the ME firmware And then you might press f6 or control p when booting up And you might get a prompt If you are still in the manufacturing mode or you just bought the machine very fresh You just type admin. That's a default password. That's publicly documented by the way It's not something I found somewhere but in Intel's own documentation And then you can start using that feature So this might apply I haven't confirmed it but it might apply to The hp elite books for example, which are for business use or certain the novel thinkpads from the t-series You could try it on your machines. Maybe Now I've already described you that there are lots of different variants and versions of the management engine We have a very very long timeline here. We are talking about years starting from 2004 until now So it's 15 years since the active management technology was announced until today Where we have version 12 of the management engine The problem with this timeline here is again the disclaimer I cannot really verify all of this information. I have mostly gathered it from different sources So don't take all of this for granted Some of this might also just include some educated guessing from my site If you find any errors, you will get the links later. You can follow me box or send your pull requests So we're at version 12 now For each version of the management engine, there's release notes They are public So in me 12, they just drop version 1 for tls 1.2 is now in And we have a few other features Some of them I don't even know But you can look it up on inter documentation Those are the variants. We already know consumer corporate a slim version apparently There's the sps version which was made for servers And now there is something called ignition Which actually brings us to our motivation here This is an email from the edk to non osi mailing list They announced a version of the me binary which can finally be distributed So you can give it to other people you could do that before Well, at least not officially of course when you get firmware updates from your supplier You get those binaries in a way, but it's not like you download them from inter directly Which means that now we can Offer full images of custom firmware based on core boot based on this me binary here And whatever we want to tailor it for So let's follow the yellow brick road This is the license The license allows basically Only redistribution You may not make any changes. You may not reverse it. You may not decompile it You may not disassemble it Now how do we actually verify that it works as desired and as promised? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain if you have seen the wizard of us, you know the scene That's literally what they want their philosophy is Kind of a shallow thing so they don't really want to be very open with information This year is from a training slide. It's an official training that intel is giving at certain events They tell people well, we have lots of firmware developers. We want to support them in a way, but not too much actually I have to be a bit quick because I have more slides than time Here's the vendor's perspective from intel's fsp white paper fsp is the firmware support package They're saying they're working towards Well releasing something but actually not so if you have a binary and it works as desired then it's okay. Otherwise Well, not so much, but they promise it works And the same applies for me. I guess Which is where dexter's law applies Which is saying that only proprietary software vendors actually want proprietary software And now that's the issue If somebody is attacking your system, they do not play by the rules Let's take some first steps into that direction Um, there's some analysis tools There's the me cleaner me analyzer and more There's been some reverse engineering not from my side because of course the license doesn't allow it Uh, more information can be found in other talks There was the plunder vault attack just recently which was actually based on reverse engineering And now i'm afraid I have to cut it here Um, we have security issues We want to analyze firmware Here's a bit of data structures. I would just briefly skim through those now You can approach me later for more And I want to briefly come to this conclusion because this is the important part So for security all firmware has to be open source Here's a list of acronyms Some other talks to refer to again Thanks to everyone who has actually helped me with this. That's all the hacker spaces I hang out at The chaos west team and the stage here, of course And the open source firmware projects Please come to our assembly. It's right over there if you want to know more So thanks first If you have any questions, please approach me now or well just in a bit at the assembly I guess we have time for one very small question now Yeah, thank you very much as of a hand There'll be two mics. They're lit We have time for one question or maybe two but short ones anybody Has a question No About all the fun you can have and not supposed to have Okay, thank you very much Okay, in which case let's close it And take your trash, please And be excellent to each other. Thank you very much


It took almost a month to even get to this point in this old school Dragon Ball Z game, but today is finally the day that we are taking on the boss fight that everybody warned me about in Dragon Ball Z Infinite World, Kid Boo. Will he actually be the menace of a boss fight? The comments have been hyping up for almost a month now. That is exactly what we're going to find out in this video. And so here we are after weeks of build up in the comments. We are finally going to be taking on Kid Boo. Now are we doing this just as Goku we are? Do we have any skills? Please tell me we've got some skills. Okay well I mean no ultimate, but that's fine you know at least we can transform. I'm assuming up to Super Saiyan 3 and the rest is just going to be up to us. Do we get a cutscene for this? Already Super Saiyan 3! Oh the beginning of our fight. Is he going to tell me I'm number one? You're the only one who can defeat me if I can finally understand why I'm the same. Hey I'm already fighting Kid Boo. Vegeta in the background hyping me up. Dodge. Too bad I don't have instant transmission in the game, but you know whatever. Oh my god! We're throwing hay! Yo! Oh we're already pretty late stage in the Kid Boo fight. Fight like that!  Thanks Vegeta I appreciate it. You know it wasn't too long ago that I was taking on the Majin Vegeta boss fight and that was a real pain. But oh that cutscene. Okay this we cannot afford to actually lose. We need to retry every time because these low times are going to go crazy. Super Saiyan 3 with a costume that is sick. I'm sorry does Kid Boo have all the... What am I looking at right now? Why does he have that many life bars? Why does he have that many life bars? Has any character had that many?  How is he so good? How is he so good? It's only a different one. Retry, retry, retry. Actually no I win these. I win these. I don't win these, I don't... He laid me on the ground. Okay, alright Kid Boo. I didn't realize it was going to be such a struggle fight. Oh, what is this? Oh my god. How is this instant transmission coming on me? Oh I messed up. I still won.  How did he win? Why is this instant transmission coming on me? Did I read that wrong? What? He's making it. He's making sure. Wait an instant transmission. What? Oh my god. He didn't even need an instant transmission.    Oh who are you talking to like that? Yeah get off the ground, get off the ground. Oh there's no way he bounced off the... Dodge it. No I have to go through the cuts. Kid Boo is hyping himself up over there. He saw the way he was waving his hands. I got greedy. We have to retry every two... Oh the cutscenes dude. The three loading screens dude. Alright I'm not messing around this time.  Well this time I'm going to win. This time I'm going to win and my comeback's going to start. Let's go Kid Boo. Yeah nice instant transmission coming at me out you got there.  Did he just win? Nope I did. Bounce it back. He forgot to do the coming at me out part entirely.  Oh okay so every fight with Kid Boo has gone pretty poorly so far. There we go. Big damage that's what we love to see. I do need to get my... Stop swinging. No! Who are you talking to? I'm sorry but who are you talking to? Get that out of here. He dodged it perfectly. Damn nice grab. Kid Boo's got a brain on him man. Kid Boo actually be thinking. Oh open wide I'm here to... No no no no. Back up back up back up back up. Charge up charge up. How do I charge up? How do I charge up? I don't remember. It's been too long. No! No. Oh I'm passed out I'm passed out I'm passed out. Dammit. Dammit should I restart now? No no no. No no no I don't give up I don't give up. That's what you got to know about me is I don't give up but I never surrender. Yeah let's go. Alright I give up. I give up I know he was on the grab but I give up dude. I'm sorry but why does Kid Boo have this many levels of key as well? Like is he really that impressive? His punishes are insane.    Did he just grab me again on the run up? No combo game though no combo game. I think he got mad at me. I think I shouldn't have said that. He just said no. He's just.  That is all he is doing man. Oh my why is he just swinging his arms around? He's got no technique.  No no no I'm not done.  By the way not don't even call that an instant transmission copy of me you don't deserve to call that. That should have been a perfect sidestep and said I take 500 damage to the face. Oh get off of me.   Oh where are you looking? Oh get off of me grab that's what I was throwing in some oh I got him. I got him I got him I got him. How do I key charge? How do I key charge? I don't remember how to key charge. There we go I remember I remember I remember. He's just swinging. Yeah damn it. There is no technique there is no grace to kid boo. He is just shameless and he did it again.   I want him to teleport at me. Teleport at me. No he's a genius. Okay we're not resetting I just have to win the defense. He is an absolute genius. He is so smart.  I missed I missed I missed I missed yes. Too bad kid boo literally doesn't he lacks the IQ to click a button. How much damage? 805 still that's rough man. Get up Goku. I ran in with no key. I ran in with no key and this man's got calm. Oh open up open up kid boo it is time for your daily allotted medicine. Stand up and take one of these oh oh my God he's getting cooked he's getting cooked he doesn't know how to deal with it. He doesn't know how to deal with pressure with real fighting technique and finesse. He can't do it perfect guard that you're not hitting me with that move anymore. Awakey wakey kid boo it's time for school it's time for school kid boo come on come on you know you want it.   I'm out of key I'm out of key I'm out of key I'm out of key no no no I'm exhausted no I'm exhausted please.  I really thought I was about to beat kid boo in under 30 minutes it's only been 12 minutes of attempts so far.   God the grab how do I stop that I guess I have to dash back or I could grab him back I guess but uh combo damage where are you going kid boo uh damn he grabbed me again oh no he knocked me out and I'm out of key I'm out of key do I still play do I really still play is there really a point oh no no no not dude I okay I need to practice under pressure anyway right.


Good to see everyone's faces. We absolutely have a forum here. I'm sure there are a few more that are on their way. We do have a few members who let us know they won't be joining us or we'd be joining us by phone and so forth. But as we've started recording, we should go ahead and call this meeting to order. Want to welcome everybody to the space. We've been charged to take something that's complex and bring coherence to create a community of listening where voices of our community are actually heard and will be seen within our recommendations when it all comes down to that point. We have a similar format this evening as we did last time where we will have a presentation. In that last meeting, our presentation was really geared toward not only bringing us the work of one of our community partners, but also helping us and reminding us of how this task force came to be. And in today's meeting, we'll also have another presentation which also has a double meaning, not just bringing a community partner organization's work to the front and to this task force, but also to think about ways that we could take many other elements of what we're gonna look at and work with and take the very same framework that we'll see today and find ways that we could possibly take that framework, a similar framework into our work going forward. So again, it's gonna be a treat. We have a lot of time for question and answer. And I'm ready to get started.  I'd like to introduce Dr. Duane Campbell. He's a recipient of a Fuse Executive Fellowship. He resides here in Durham. So once he got that fellowship, he didn't have to go far to fulfill it. And we're happy that he's a part of our community already, particularly in doing this work. He has a background in research and evaluation. He's interested in the safety and wellness in this community as a well-coordinated process with a wide cross-section of stakeholders. His job is housed within the city offices, but his sole task through the fellowship is the work of this community. So I'd like to introduce Duane Campbell to you and give him a chance to see a few words. Thank you, Xavier. And it is my pleasure to be here. Good evening, everyone. Some of you have worked within a different space and in a different capacity. My name is Duane Campbell, as Xavier had introduced me. I hope you heard my accent because that represents my whole man, Jamaica. I live here in Durham with my wife and we are now expecting our first child any minute now. I am happy that I'm going to be supporting the task force and the task force work. I watched your first meeting. I was very much impressed with everything that was discussed. I was happy to see the passion with which each of you discuss the very important issues that are critical to us improving where we live. So with me joining Durham and the city of Durham and the work of the task force, I hope I can use my own expertise and experience to support your vision and to meet Durham and even more exciting place to live so that Durham can become a safe space economically, socially, financially for everybody and especially those who have traditionally been disenfranchised. So thank you for allowing me to join your space and please feel free to let me know how I can be up there to support to the task force. Thank you Xavier and I'm turning it back over to you. Great and I have, hi everyone, good to see you. Good to be back together. Glad to have you in the house, muffin. I have the pleasure of introducing Ajane, who I call AJ, I think you can too, Clemens who will soon be Dr. Clemens. She is a PhD, just finishing up her PhD in Sanford School of Public Policy at Duke and has done her primary, you don't get to meet somebody like this every day who is doing her primary research on Durham residents attitudes towards law enforcement in Durham and also in London. So comparing those in democracies. So we're just, you know, how perfect is that? And we hope to hear about that more later in our time together through these next 18 months. And she has also spent lots of time advising lawmakers on state and federal levels. But I think the most exciting, not only is her dissertation just incredibly relevant, she also has spent enormous amounts of work in Denver, her hometown where she was the community relations, Aam Smidman, and she participated in over 150 meetings throughout the city and county of Denver and built and managed one of the nation's largest community police mediation programs. She is about to leave us in the fall to begin a professorship at the University of Denver where she'll teach courses on American policy, politics and structural inequality. She has been so generous to us and has helped me especially understand the dimensions of this work that we're doing. And I just want you to know, AJ, that your generosity and your brilliance, no matter how far you go, as far as the mile-hide city, our respect and gratitude will be there. So, so glad to have you with us to help us understand sequential intercept mapping and more. That handed that to my buddy, Xavier. Did you wanna, did you have a few words, AJ? Oh, just what a tremendous honor and privilege it is to serve you all, to serve. And thank you so much to co-chairs Owen and Kason for just inviting me into the space. And I'm excited and honored to continue to be of support in any way that I can. So University of Denver is very excited for this. And so have promised. So let me support you as much as you need or want. So thank you. Thank you so much. So next on our agenda is our moment of silence. As a lifelong conductor, some of my favorite moments was in the midst of the full band just rolling and pushing all that wonderful music out, taking my baton and just having a rest and a pause in the music and the power in that pause and the anticipation. And so that's what moments of silence are to me, a place for us to collectively think about, anticipate about what could actually happen when this work is done. So if you would join me in a moment of silence. Thank you. Back to you, Marsha. Last time we met Manju shared a beautiful part of a poem from the great American poet, Gwendolyn Brooks that I'd like to share with you. It just really speaks to what we're doing here. Gwendolyn Brooks writes, we are each other's harvest. We are each other's business. We are each other's magnitude and bond. May we be bound to each other as we share the value that we bring, we each bring to this gathering tonight. And I will begin, I trust there is in the chat a list, maybe not. So just feel free to, I'll just call on the next person. So we make sure we go through this. So I'll look at my screen. But the value that I bring to this gathering tonight is respect. And I will pass it to Samuel. Thank you. One, I'm thankful to be here today. We'll follow the brilliant people who are here. And the value I'm bringing to this space is compassion. I think it's something that the world is lacking but needs a lot of. And I think I'll pass it on to, is it Alec or is it Alex? Thanks, Samuel. It's Alec with a C. Appreciate it. Hey, y'all. I think the value that I would like to bring tonight is humility. There's a lot that I have to learn that I don't know, but I'm excited to learn about. I'll pass it to Muffin. I'm gonna need everyone. What I would like to bring I guess would be radical love because we need to love hard and love in different ways. So yeah. And I will pass it to Dr. Carol. Hi everyone, you can call me Jennifer. It's hard to pick just one because I feel like there's so many inspirational things happening in this group. But I would go with learning. I'm hoping to do a lot of that. And I think especially our guests will facilitate that a huge deal. And I will pass it to Toya. Hi everyone. I'm gonna bring hope into this space. And I will pass to Manju. Thanks, Shatoya. My name is Manju and I'm bringing enthusiasm. And I'll pass it to Mike. Collaboration and I'll pass it to Pound Cake. I mean, Jesse. Y'all don't call me Pound Cake. Sorry, I didn't mean to stick you with a new nickname. Y'all don't, not everybody knows me like that and no one is calling me Pound Cake. Okay, but yes. Good evening everyone. My word for today, the value I'm sharing is gentleness. And I will pass it to my girl, Shanice. She are safely, you in the car, so. Yeah, hey, y'all. The value that I'm bringing to this space today is support. And I will pass it to Tyler. You said Tyler? Oh, okay. Please thank being here with everybody and the past Shanice, Tyler, and Bird. We have the value I'm bringing is resilience. And I will pass to Neema Sunda. We're gonna go with a long eye on that one. Instead, it's Naima Sheena. But I'm gonna bring, what value y'all wanna bring to this space? This is a very cold day. It might sound random, but a little bit of warmth and comfort. That's what I'm bringing. I gotta pass it, I gotta pass it, hold on. Xavier, have you gone? I have not, I have not. Okay, I'm going to pass it to Xavier Kasey. The way I'm bringing is belonging. On both sides, I feel like I belong and I feel like you belong. And I'm passing it over to Isaac. Hi y'all, good to see you all. The value I'm bringing this evening is curiosity. And I'm actually not sure, I'm on my phone here, so I can't really see who else is on the call. Mayor Pro Tem, will you share? Absolutely, hey y'all, happy to be here tonight. The value I would like to bring is imagination. And I will, have we done all the task force members? Should I throw it to Xavier? Yes. Did Tanya go? I don't know if Tanya went. Yeah, where is she? Tanya, oh I see, Tanya's here. I did not go, thank you for remembering me. That's it, appreciate it. I'm on the phone, I'm on the, in my car as well. I would appreciate the warmth from my sister, but I am going with a listening here today is the value I'll bring. And I will pass it back to Xavier. Hey everyone, Xavier, listening has the value. And I think, maybe Gudrun? Hello everybody, I'm Gudrun Farmer, and I'm bringing anticipation to the table today. And who has not shared? Amber, I know you're there somewhere, right? Hey y'all, I am here trying to get the zoom and the YouTube together, but... So I'm bringing the organization to the meeting today. The glue, that's great, that's beautiful, thank you. I think that's everyone, right? Okay, do we all agree that these are the values that we will share and hold between us this evening? You can just thumbs up it, that's good. Beautiful, beautiful, it's a gift to be with y'all. Now, I would like to introduce the first business order, order of business on our agenda today, which is the review of the bylaws. We are tasked with following, we have requirements and they are contained in those bylaws. I hope everybody's had a chance to read them. But just in case, we're just gonna go over a few. I'll go over the first three and then Xavier can finish us up. But I think the most important parts of the bylaws is that we are required to review all the existing resources. And I think tonight as we do this sequential intercept mapping, we'll really see the value of that and how that will be very, very relevant and how we can apply that. So we need to review the existing resources to identify the gaps in order to make recommendations so that we can fulfill this mission. And we'll talk more about that in next steps as well. The next thing that we must do is have three listening sessions in the first three months of our existence. We've had one, we'll have one tonight. And so our next meeting I look forward to another listening session to be announced. And then also we are tasked with educating once we understand the resources and have recommendations that we share those fully with the public so that they too understand what is available. And we also must provide quarterly reports. And that's to the commissioners, to the city, to the school board and to the community. And I hope that will be the work, the great work of Dr. Campbell. And so those are just three things for us to know that we must address. And with that, I will turn it to you, Xavier. Two more points we wanted to really look at coming from the bylaws. We've been charged with making specific recommendations to our city council, our county commissioners, our board of education. Those areas are related to five main points. One, school resource officers. Of course, these are the sheriffs that are mainly in our high schools and our middle schools. Some big recommendations concerning the existing Durham County drug courts. And I would imagine that we would look at criminal justice on a larger scale through that round table. The third part would be an expanded violence interrupter program. You may be familiar with Bull City United and the contract that they have with the city and working within the county. The fourth area is making recommendations regarding a new community, non-violence, mental health, first aid, and de-escalation training program. And the fifth area would be looking at a new way that crisis response can be handled. In addition to having 911 or in conjunction with 911 however, this ends up looking, that we'd allow for certain calls to be handled about other trained professionals, such as social workers and trained counselors, psychiatric nurses, and so forth. So that was the fourth point we wanted to make sure that we talked about those five with the understanding that there could be many more that come out, many more round tables outside of those five areas that would either inform those five areas or stand alone as a new item that we want to make a recommendation on. We also wanna make sure, and it's stated and listed out in the battle laws that we do have also a community resource panel. Persons from the sheriff's office, the police chief's office, someone from the criminal justice resource center during public schools, public health, Alliance Behavioral Health Crisis Response Center or Family Justice Center director, juvenile prevention, council administrator, the EMS, district attorney for Durham, and social services. So these, all those are listed in our bylaws and we will be hearing from those experts as well. Just wanna remind you, in case you didn't know that we also have a lot of others, experts in the community from our research partners, our universities, and many other who have been waiting to talk to us and want to get a word in. I do want you to know that, and when March will talk about it a little more later, that we are really gonna work on a plan to make sure that we get to hear from all these people. Some of them will be in our Wednesday task force meetings. Some of them will be in the roundtables, but we're gonna create a culture of listening. So those are the highlights of the bylaws. I know you've had a chance to look at them. Take a look again if there's some other areas that you think we should talk about in future meetings, please let us know. We wanna move right on to our presentation today. Wanna bring to you Ms. Gudrum Palmer from the Criminal Justice Resource Center. And she'll be talking about sequential intercept mapping. And just, again, as a framework, as I said earlier, we did the welcome. I was excited because I'm like, this is something that they really took us through a day in the life of someone who it has a mental health crisis and how the systems, how that person can possibly work through all the systems in our community as they try to get their way through those crisis situation. And we could easily, I think, place other persons, other fellow citizens in those same areas. So I'd ask Gudrum to come on up and introduce herself and her role and the framework that she'd like to bring for us. Please welcome Gudrum Palmer. Thank you very much. Hello, everybody, I'm Gudrum Palmer. I work at the Durham County Criminal Justice Resource Center and the Criminal Justice Resource Center is a department within Durham County government. We are part of the public safety portfolio, but we actually provide human services to the Criminal Justice Resource Center. It does a lot of substance use treatment, mental health services, and our agency primarily serve adults in the criminal justice system, but we work with them from the very beginning from first contact all the way to people coming out of incarceration after very long periods of incarceration. So I know that Amber sent you the link to this sequential intercept map that has come up several times already, has been mentioned. And I think she, and I suggested also that you get a hard copy because it's really hard to see on a screen. I'm not sure whether, can I share screen so I can move a little bit or should we just talk a little bit? So what I'm trying to do today is tell you a little bit about what we have done in with our stepping up initiative using this map. I'm not trying to tell you about how you should do your work. I will not try to tell you how the criminal justice resource center is all over this map. And I'm not talking about any of this, right? Today I'm really just trying to show you how we look at the community in front of us and try to understand what is happening. And then identify opportunities for improvement because nothing is ever static, everything changes all the time. But we were trying to, and the map that you received that we populated, we did not create this, this is something that substance abuse and mental health services administration created in the GAINS Center, but we populated that for Durham. And so we did this to help us understand what happens in our community and how someone can move through this system. This will, how someone moves through the system from intercept zero all the way to intercept five. So the sequential intercept, we mapped this several times. We did it initially on our own and it was a very rudimentary kind of little boxes in this. And then several years later, as we continued to look at this map and continue to have this conversation, we actually had a trained facilitator to work with us in a two-day workshop to continuously identify what is happening and where the pieces are.  This was, this is a very specific, this map is for individuals with mental illness in the criminal justice system. And the purpose of our exercise was how can we reduce the number of people in our jail that are presenting with mental illness?  But I am trying to kind of show you how we did this in a way that could potentially also help you dissect your own systems and dissect the systems that you are, that you will be looking at. And Gudrun, excuse me, would you like me to share my screen with that? I know you want us to kind of, you want to walk us through the media. Well, yeah, it's, yeah, absolutely. Did you have yours up where you could share? Cause if not, I can't. Gudrun, you should be able to share yours if you want to. I think if Xavier shares it, then I can focus on just talking. Sorry. And I'll do my best to navigate. Okay. All right. Are you all seeing the whole map or just portions of it? I've got it kind of lower. How would you like to start? So, yeah, maybe look at the whole piece first as you have it right now. Okay. So what you have here is intercept zero through five. Intercept zero is where, you know, let me start back. We started initially with intercept one through five. Intercept one, it was community law enforcement. But over the years, because this is a national effort and a national model, we realized, everyone realized, the field realized that intercept one was too large and there is actually something way before someone has contact with law enforcement, right? And that's the community. And so the intercept zero identifies everything that is on the community level, hospitals, crisis, respite, peer, community services. And so what we then did is identify all the services that are happening in this space. Intercept one is law enforcement and emergency services. So this is like someone calls 911 dispatch and then the different context they may have, mobile crisis, community paramedics, law enforcement. And from there, you move into the intercept two.  So from law enforcement in emergency services, you move into, because that's what the system we're looking at is detention and then the first 24 hours in the detention basically. The next is if you stay in jail, what happens if you stay in the system, then you'll be looking at the courts and looking at the jail. Then intercept four focuses on reentry. This is when someone comes out of the detention center and intercept five is again, the services in the community and community supports. And then we looked at the connections. So when you look at your intercept zero, you see a tremendous list of services. These are the services that we kind of listed. And what we did is not only did we in our work in the stepping up initiative, not only did we look at what services are in the community but we also talked at length at what do we not have enough of, what do we have but we don't have enough of it. And then we also talked about gaps. So we looked at our resources, we looked at gaps and we talked about opportunities in each of these intercepts to, to change the trajectory, to change the line. So when you look at how people move from intercept zero into intercept one, especially up here, right? If people can't take 9-1-1 dispatch and 9-1-1 dispatch because this I think is, it's definitely one of your challenges, right? One of your opportunities, then law enforcement gets involved. And so we looked at CIT and so there is CIT and CIT trained and we looked at how many people are CIT trained and where is the CIT training different organizations. And so we, and law enforcement then has the option of taking someone to detox, take someone to the hospital, take someone to the recovery response center or arrest, right? And then the magistrates have an opportunity to make a determination whether someone could postpone or is released on their own recognizant, then, and so we map every step. We map what is available and then we also talked about what could be done better. In the detention center, there are a number of programs and services to identify individuals that have a mental illness. Remember that's our focus, right? There is a screen and then people that are flagged on the screen or then receive a full evaluation by the jail mental health team. And then there are a number of other organizations that can have an impact. And so pre-trial detention, pre-trial screening, and then there is the first appearance. And I'm sure many of you are familiar with the criminal justice system. So you know there is a bond review and public defender is appointed. And so people, some people are released. Some people stay in the detention center. And if they stay in the detention center, there are some mental health services there. There is a mental health court now. And the detention center in the Durham County commissioners funded a mental health pod, a specialized pod inside the detention center. Mental detention officers are receiving CIT training now, specific to detention. And then we moved into intercept four with the reentry and the services that are available or that need to be available to people that come out of the detention center, housing and all the wraparound services, especially mental health services. And then if someone is under some kind of supervision after they get released, then we looked at the, especially probation parole or any others. But so this is the map and it's a really quick but the main point why Marsha and Xavier thought I should bring this map to you is to kind of, to tell you how we use this map to for one, identify the gaps, identify opportunities but then also affect, identify what could be better and develop priorities for activities or programming that could improve your system or your service levels in the community. So the map for us, our Stepping Up Initiative, it helped us develop a comprehensive system, a picture of the system. It helped us to plot the resources and the gaps across the map, you know? And it's a dynamic process because things change all the time. You've been in Durham a while, you know that if we have services today, next year an organization may not be there anymore or we may have a new service. So things change all the time. That's a great thing, but sometimes it's difficult to keep up with everything that we have. And then of course we also, especially in the mental health area, a lot of the funding comes from state and federal agencies. So a lot of that changes continuously. But this is an opportunity to look at what we have locally, not take something that's a national or that could be, but what we have here in Durham and then for us, we also try to identify opportunities to divert because the purpose of the Stepping Up Initiative is so we reduce the number of people in the jail who have mental illness. So obviously when you look at the map, we need to focus on everything before intercept two, where someone goes to jail, right? So we need to focus on intercept zero and we need to focus on intercept one. So where are our opportunities? Where are our gaps? And so where do we not have enough? Where do we need to do better? And what do we not have at all? And so as you're looking at this, I'm hoping you can map your connections through the system and then set your priorities and potentially bring recommendations for improvement. Thank you so much for that. Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead. One more, just for an example for diversion. So instead of, if you look at intercept zero instead of someone calling law enforcement, can they call somebody else, right? And instead of going to jail, if intercept one, if law enforcement is involved, instead of going to jail, can they take them someplace else? So those are the opportunities to change the trajectory of going through that system. So hopefully the more we can do, the more people stay in zero, right? Stay in the community and never enter into these other points. So that was, I know this is really fast and I was probably a little bit too much over the map for you to follow along, but that's why I asked that you have the map, the actual map in front of you. And this is really just an example of how we map our system. This is just so, for me, I'm a person, I need to see things in front of me, right? I cannot just hear, I need to look at it. So we continuously looked at this map and to see what do we have, what do we need to need more of? And we did identify some opportunities and some small steps. For example, in one of our conversations, the detention staff was bringing up that people that were inebriated, drunk, would be taken to the jail on a 24-hour home. For safekeeping, basically, because law enforcement was concerned about them, but the jail is not a good place for them, right? They should be going to a shelter or a recovery center also. And so we identified the recovery response center, said we will work with law enforcement and did a lot of training and continuous training and actually reduced the number of people that were taken to jail. Months by month, we could see the number dropping. And now I'm stopped, I stopped talking. I appreciate you bringing this framework. Again, it's just an example of some work that's already been done, but also a way we can look at how we do our work and want to ask Ajane to kind of step in and guide our question and answer. Thank you, Xavier. And again, Marcia, for allowing me to take part of this process and thank you for that presentation, Gudrun. All right, so I guess for my first question, I'd like to take about 90 seconds or so to try to summarize what I think I understood from your presentation. I also may or may not have read your report a couple of times beforehand, but please let me know after I do this little summary if there's anything that I got wrong or that I missed that you'd like to add. So there is a group of stakeholders who define the problem as there are too many people with mental illness and co-occurring substance abuse disorders who end up in jail unnecessarily. The stakeholders group was a coalition of the willing, about 26 people from 20 organizations and agencies who came together to figure out how to prevent this specific group from either entering the criminal justice system in the first place or being diverted from jail as soon as possible. The 26 stakeholders came from mental health, substance abuse, human services, corrections, law enforcement, courts, they were advocates, family members and the consumers or the people themselves who were entering into these systems. And just for anyone just joining the group, it's called the Durham County Stepping Up Initiative which is part of a national effort hosted by CJRC, the Criminal Justice Resource Center. So you had this workshop to begin the work and the goal as I understand it was to step back and take a look at the whole picture of Durham's systems from the perspective of a person with a serious mental illness and co-occurring substance abuse disorder who was in need of service. And so you wanted to see how everything was connected, captured on a map so that everyone working would have one tool from which to work where they could locate Durham's current resources and the barriers people face. And then by seeing how the systems connect to each other or fail to connect, then your team was able to pinpoint some of those gaps. Then by seeing the barriers people faced and when they needed help and the gaps that existed between the systems, you were able to create a list of priorities that needed to be changed. And so as a group, you wrote down all your priorities which looks kind of like a list of, to do list of action items. You got everybody to vote for their top three choices. You counted up the votes and then took the top four to begin. And so these became kind of four working groups, if you will, at least to start. And you were looking at sort of community education, access to housing, addressing the length of stay and detention, funding for mental health court. So within these working groups, everybody split up and divvied up the action items. You wrote down who was doing what by when and then recorded the status at subsequent meetings. And so since this workshop in February of 2019, the working groups have had several victories like people getting grants, systems being changed, added. So some of those gaps that you had identified a couple of years ago have begun to be filled in over time. But changing one part of the system might have affected another part. Or there might be new things that you noticed as the working groups learn more and shared information. So your original map has had to be updated to keep up with what you have laid out as a dynamic process. Is there anything that I got wrong about that or that you'd like to explain further? We have been at this since 2015. So I'm sorry, you all only have 18 months. We had a lot more time to work on it. And some of the victories that AJ mentioned came before that this workshop that created this the fancy a map with all the lines and the charts and all this. And we identified four priorities, but then COVID happened and we kind of lost momentum. So we are not quite as far along in our new priorities that we had identified as we wanted to. So we are now just like you all with getting together on a more regular basis again and trying to invigorate our partners, bring our partners, our partner organizations back to the table to then start tackling again. Because COVID took a lot of attention from everybody for everything. So getting people to be interested in mental illness and advocating for people who are marginalized or often not just overlooked is hard. So we are now back at it begins. So that's the one thing I wanted to mention in that. Thank you. Great summary. Thank you. My value that I'm bringing is Grace because the Lord knows I need it. So thank you so much. All right, well, I appreciate that clarification. So just one more clarification and Manju, yes, we'll make sure to send out that report to everybody. Okay, so in the committee's report, systems mapping and action planning which is a lot more riveting than it sounds. You note something very important. You say that the working groups weren't examining individual pieces of the system such as specific treatment, services, criminal justice practices, for example. In other words, you didn't take on the additional tasks of evaluating the quality or the effectiveness of individual parts of the systems. Rather you were stepping back to make sure you identified everything Durham currently offers or imposes, frankly and how it fits together or doesn't when you place yourself in the shoes of the person experiencing it. So this group does, however, offer some suggestions or food for thought for those who are interested in evaluating individual treatments, services or practices. And so here are just a few examples that the report highlights. It notes cultural competence and making sure providers aren't using cookie cutter approaches but instead understanding people's needs. You urge providers and agencies to consider trauma. They may cause someone during interactions and or the trauma someone might have endured already and be sensitive to that. The report talks about knowing and adjusting for gender differences, ongoing medication needs after these acute events and easing transitions. In other words, providers shouldn't be thinking only about their own role but helping people transition to the next process. Is there anything you'd like to add or change about that summary? The summary is great. The summary, absolutely. It's, those are the, the field evolves all the time in every, in every, everything that we do, right? We always learn, we continue to learn or we hope or we should be continuing to learn and know that we can always do things better. And so, you know, being trauma-informed, being having the capacity to develop gender-specific programming, being, you know, all these things we continuously have to involve and we can always do better. It's not about, to me, our intent was never to evaluate an individual program. That was not the intent, but it's the question is, what can we do better? We can always do better. And so there's always room for improvement and there is a lot of research out there that we can use, but then we can also, you know, we learn as we do. So we, yes, we, there's always better and newer things available. Okay, great. So now this task force does have the authority and indeed the mandate even to evaluate or sort of examine individual components. If that's something, knowing what you know now, if that's something that you could have done then, do you think the order matters? Do you think there's some value in just getting the map first and then, you know, selecting some individual components to look at or do you think it makes sense to do any of those simultaneously? I would always do the map first, but that's me, okay? I would always do the map first because I think I need to understand the larger picture and where everybody fits in. If you don't have the length, the time to do all this and the luxury of time, especially to map your system, I guess you can build a plane and fly it at the same time. But I personally would first take a look and take a step back and look and see what is it and who interacts with who and how do, you know, you look at the school system and so, but not only do you need to look forward, you also need to look back, right? If there is a situation at a school, then what happens to a kid that gets involved with the school resource officer but also look back and what did this kid bring to the school with them? You know, the community part, what might have happened at home? Because as we work through this inner step, we realize inner step zero is the most important one, the community part. What can we do as early as possible to change the path and the earlier you can identify a situation or a problem, hopefully the better and the more gentle way to solve something for someone. That's great. So I'll end on this final question because that's a perfect segue and then toss it back to the co-chairs. You mentioned school resource officers that is exactly actually what I was thinking of because the task force's charter mandates and it evaluates and makes recommendations regarding as Xavier mentioned earlier, school resource officers, drug court, violence interruption, mental health, first aid and de-escalation and on-call crisis response with qualified professionals. So hypothetically speaking, if the task force formed working groups along these lines and one or all decided to use this tool, let's take the school resource officers, for example, how would you recommend they get started? So I think you need to be careful that you don't get too stuck in exactly this model because this model- I'm sorry, can you repeat that?  So you cannot just say, oh, now we just changed the words, but think about, I'm not an expert on school and how law enforcement interacts and who does what we're in the school. But I think you can, those of you that understand those systems then dissect the systems and see where are opportunities to change that line or cut the line and who is interacting with whom and who are the players in each area. It might be the same ones several times, but to me, you can look at each one will, you might have one that has only three or four column in a set areas, right? But so each model or each map probably will look different. Nobody will, none of them should all look the same because then you're just copying somebody else's. But I think you take a really hard look at what each system is when you have your workbooks. That's where you look and see who all are the players in these workbooks. And then you need to kind of organize them and then you map them, that's how I was doing. But as you can tell with me using my hands, I'm a very visual person, like maybe I should play Legos, right? Because that's how I would fill my map. That's how practical I would do. And so just to clarify, sorry, and then I'll be done. So when you starting, do you, if you use the tool, I understand you're not like selling the tool, but if one were to use the tool, would you start with maybe some scenarios? And then, I mean, do you work backward and how far backward would you go? Like when do you stop going backward?  And you go back as far as you go, as far as you can go because the further back you go, the closer you are to the beginnings, right? And so you need to, and you may add something later. You just map it the best you understand it and you ask questions and then realize something, there might be another entity, another organization that comes even sooner, early childhood, all these things. So that's how I would do it. And don't feel like, you know, you have to get it right the first time because it's an evolving, it's a moving system and the more you know the figure you will build it out because you all, I think you will hear a lot, you will read a lot, you will learn a lot. And so you might have a map that initially has five boxes and by the time you're done with your learning process you will have 35. Thank you, appreciate it and thank you all. Well, thank you. I appreciate you asking those clarifying guided questions for us. Talk questions too. If any of the task force members also have some questions you might wanna ask based on what you saw. I've got a kind of a overarching one. I think I guess now at the end I'm understanding better the purpose of this really engaging presentation to give us a sense of how we could use this mapping approach to the other things we're tackling but I'm also intrigued by the specifics of what you're engaged in. So I guess the big question is, good run to use and Marcia and Xavier, do you foresee a role for the task force in working alongside the criminal justice resource center in continuing to look at this specific process to help you address the issues of gaps and to help echo, amplify your recommendations for where the gaps need to be filled with the specific population of people with substance abuse and mental illness. Absolutely, I think some of the things that you are tasked with to look at, I think you fit right in with our stepping up initiative committee. And I think some of our members have a lot of insight and a lot of information so we're happy to share more information with you but as you're looking at, are you looking at CIT or law enforcement? That's as you, if you look at our map you know there is a huge opportunity if law enforcement does not take someone to jail but either if someone else responds rather than law enforcement or if law enforcement responds and then that person goes to a facility or goes to a treatment center rather than the detention center. So absolutely great question, Mike. I'm with you, I'm your next cheerleader. Because if that was the case and yeah, I think we would all benefit from more presentations about the gaps you're talking about and what needs to be built up. We'll definitely follow up on that as well. Thanks for that, Mike. Jesse, hands up. Yeah, just a quick question and either soon to be Dr. AJ or a guru and can answer it you'd mentioned that pre COVID with all your research, there were four working groups. Can you name them again? They may not, I mean, in my mind I'm assuming that they're still relevant that the pandemic just exacerbated these issues. So I just want to make sure that we're hearing what you had identified as the four working groups or the four sort of focuses. So Jesse, we did not have four working groups yet. We had identified four priorities and identified some individuals who were volunteering or being volunteer to work on some of those. They would have more into working groups because to me working groups you kind of are accountable to each other and you come back and you say, what you did or did you do? Sure. Are you just looking for the four areas? Yes, name those priorities for us again. Okay, hold on one second. One was community education. Community education and mostly making residents aware of available mental health services. There was the first one, access to housing, increased access and availability for people, especially someone coming out and meeting shelter. Sure. So one was shelter access and then also existing housing initiatives. Then the third one was looking at the length of stay because we have as we are looking at data we have found that people with mental illness tend to stay longer in the detention center than people without mental illness. And the fourth one was additional services for, gap in services for people in the mental health work. Got you. Thank you. You're welcome. And thank you, AJ.  You were clearly prepared. We appreciate your leadership sis. My pleasure. Thanks, Jesse. Thank you, Jesse. Do we have another question? You know, I'm gonna teach you how to wait. I had a quick question. Yeah, thank you. So I also wanna echo my thanks to the people who have given their time. I am aware of how long it takes to put something like this together. I wanna acknowledge that and thank everyone for the insight and intellect that brought the conversation. I also hope to keep this conversation going because there's more things than we can talk about this month, the season in this document. It was made clear, and I appreciate AJ, you're like sort of insightful zeroing in on this, that the goal of this was a broad map of what's available, not a quality improvement or evaluation scheme. And that's perfectly fine. They're very different activities. I'm curious to know if in doing this, and in so far as I'm asking you to guess, I would say please guess because that would be helpful for us. Is there data available or evaluation activities happening so that we could do those things? So like I'm looking at things like CIT programs, which we have mountains of evidence telling us that individual officers benefit a great deal from them but they don't necessarily have impacts in the field or the drug court where we have actually a lot of restrictions on who's allowed to be there, right? And the people who might actually be most helped by an alternative program like that are disqualified by some of their things. And so if we are to look at not just what are these paths available but who is flowing through them at what rate? Why not things like that? Do we have that kind of information available to us or do we need to build up some informational infrastructure so that we can see not just the map but how people are moving through the map which people, how many and so on? Oh, that's a hard question. So I know, I'm sorry. I acknowledge that that's a really big question. So I would say just looking at the map most everything that you have that is listed here there is data behind it. But it's different agencies. And so we do not have that in this box law enforcement there were that many numbers, right? And then from there that many ended up in with an arrest at the magistrate and from there that many ended in detention. Because again, remember we are looking, we were only looking at people with mental illness and more the system. I can tell you how many people we have in the detention center that are identified with needing mental health services. I can tell you how many people we have that receive a pretrial screening and then assessment. But I think what you're looking for is starting over here and then walking all the way over to the right we don't have that, sorry. I mean, that's what I expected I just wanted to confirm. And so I just wanna clarify then that that means that likely through no fault of anyone's on this call this is how our system currently is if there are disparities or hiccups in the people flowing through this system as we would like them ostensibly away from criminal just servicing like that we're not currently in a position to see that happening except with our intuition. And yeah, and for us it's the providers that are saying I cannot find a bed for my person or I cannot connect a person for that level of mental health services to a service because there is no fun. I appreciate your insight very much, thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate that question because it makes me think about if we looked at that map as roads that lead you to a service provider or a criminal justice intercept but what you're talking about Jennifer is widening that map and actually looking at the doors because I'm sure there's some roads I could go down that I'm not welcome in or there's some doors I could knock on or can't get through some gates. I'm out and have those keys. So what you're really talking about is barriers and so going even deeper and talking about, okay we've identified this road that takes us to this service. Now, who's done some research already that talked about where the barriers are to this? I mean, I think about my area of interest homeless education. There are some federal agencies that say you're homeless if you are doubling up with a relative and there's some agencies that say, no, you're not. You're good. Well, yeah, you are. And so there's absolutely a place to talk about barriers. So I think that's what you're really talking about here is as we're mapping out intercepts and places that people in crisis end up, we also have to find out do they even have a key to getting that door? I love it. We're gonna keep that lifted. Isaac had his hand up earlier. Sorry, I made a mistake with my technology here. I'm okay. Thank you. We've all done that. Anyone else have a question? I don't wanna leave any out. Okay, if not, we wanna thank Guggen again and H.A. for her, yep, Agenay for her wonderful guided questions, her journalistic skills. And we wanna move on to our next agenda item. Marcia, I believe that's you. Thank you. I wanna just join with that gratitude. That's great. I just found this mapping so helpful because by looking at it in a holistic way, Gudrun was teaching me how if you change one thing, it changes the system. And that's what we're doing here. So I can see this being applied to people who've been harmed, survivors. I can see students. I mean, there's just so many applications that and I'm really excited as we learn about the 9-1-1 data, how, what our Durham folks calling 9-1-1-4 and being able to overlay that will also give us a really good idea about our needs and what capacity, what is required to meet the needs of our neighbors in crisis. So one- I'm sorry, Marcia. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Let's move on. Marcia, you had her hand raised. Oh, okay. Super. So sorry, a late comer to the Q and A. Thank you so much for being here and taking the time to speak with us. I heard Jennifer note this question of how do we define, that there's kind of a process for who can access the various services and sometimes the barrier is in qualifying. And I wondered how does someone at any one of these points get identified as someone with qualifying substance use or with qualifying mental illness? That was my first question. And then my second question is actually connected to what Ms. Owen just raised. The 9-1-1 data that we looked at appeared to only include the police, the DPD data. And we wondered how is it possible that we could include review of what the sheriff's department is up to in terms of those calls for service and how those are categorized. Manju, am I saying your name correctly? So I think the identification usually happens at the agency level. So, you know, I mean, if you have two different levels, sorry, let me start over. I think you can have where someone identifies someone has something that's not right. Someone seems distressed, someone clearly needs some assistance. But then if you are, if you're looking for a diagnosis then it needs to happen at the agency level or we have screening tools that just say this person needs further assessment. So, you know, because on one hand, you don't want everybody to diagnose everybody else, right? So you want the qualified professionals to do the actual diagnosing and the actual evaluation and that takes time. So you have, when you look at those services in ASAP Zero, almost all of them have qualified professionals that can do that, of course, not in the house, not normally not in the housing part, but you know, in emergency departments or do just open the emergency behavioral health urgent care clinic. So you have a lot of professionals that can do the diagnosing. Law enforcement can only say, hey, this person might be better served by this agency or people here. So you have in all the intersets, you have agencies that can do the diagnosing and the evaluation and the assessment, but it's not available all the time. 24-7 in every agency, if that makes sense. I'm not sure I answered your question. To some extent, I mean, the point of entry you named is exactly what I'm wondering about. Like if someone's point of entry into the diagram that you shared with us is law enforcement an encounter with law enforcement who is obviously not qualified to identify or screen or assess a substance use situation or a mental health struggle, then you're saying it's, it is then the law enforcement officer's responsibility to kind of recognize that they're in the wrong wheelhouse and divert it or- No, no, it's not, no. I think a lot of times there are some screening tools available and like CIT and there are some screening tools for law enforcement in the field. There are screening tools for someone who can just say, like when someone goes into the detention center and they are screened by the medical staff, they have a seven question screening tool for mental illness and it's just, but that means someone gets flagged. That doesn't mean they get diagnosed, right? It's just, there is a flag that says, we may need to take a closer look, but that's all it does. And I think something like this is available at various points of contact, whether it's in the field or when you first come into the detention center. Thanks so much. And then the second piece of the question was just about the 911 data regarding the sheriff's department. Is there a way to access that full body of calls for service data? Are y'all looking at that too? Are you asking, is that a question for me? For the criminal justice resource center, yeah. Oh, that is, well, the sheriff's office has a number of CIT trained officers, but the data that you are talking about, that you were, or I think the city was looking at the 911 calls, I don't know. I know the sheriff's office has a separate dispatch center from the police department, during police department, but that's not my will house. I really don't know that much beyond that. Sorry. I think a council woman, Caballero knows something about that. I just wanted to say the 911 call center information we have is just for DPD. So it's just on the city side and all of that information that, and the seven pilots that we plan on running are based off of those, that data. So maybe that's a question that we can ask Commissioner Barnes at some point too bad that she had to step off, but that's just a reason to follow up. I do want to mention also that, and I'm kind of getting into the next step part of the agenda, but our next presentation will be from those put together at 911 call center study and much of what you're talking about is definitely relevant. That'll be in our next meeting. And so we'll get a chance to really, what we want to do is kind of take a look at what happens when somebody goes through the system and then in the next meeting, understand that so much of the entry into those intercepts is that 911 call. So that's going to be our next presenter. And I think it's a great, so yeah, we do need to look at the sheriff's dispatch and integrate that. I think that's very important. And which leads us to any other questions. Are we ready to move on? I think that when you look at this map and you see all these services, all the, whether it's a community-based organization or a government agency, whether it's public or private, when people are in need, we need to know where those needs will be met. And so one of the things that we're gonna, as we begin to start thinking about building roundtables and getting into specifics, we wanna invite y'all, all the task force members and the public, to start identifying, helping us fill out what are those services that you know about or that you feel are most important? Who do you wanna hear from in the community regarding alternatives to policing and the criminal legal system? So, and we encourage y'all from this meeting to use the email for the task force, which is communitysafetydurhamnc.gov to share those, that information. There are so many good things happening, so many people who are responding. That last meeting from Durham Beyond Policing, it was full of organizations that are already responding to people's needs. And there's more. And I know that I don't know them all. And I don't think any one of us knows them all. But the more we know what is available, the farther we will get in making recommendations that work. So I just, we just really want to encourage everyone, invite everyone to let us know, who do you wanna hear from? Who do we need to talk to? Who do we need to have populating those intercepts? Where do we take our friends when they need help? So there you go. Thank you, Jessie. So with that, any questions about that at all? Any comments, Xavier? Okay. Okay. So, I'm sorry. No, that's it. Okay, I can't see everybody on my screen here. So the next steps are that we need to start building these roundtables. Of course, we have those five areas that we talked about from the bylaws, but we can also identify additional roundtables. So we really do want, and we're gonna send out email, either we will or we will. Somebody's gonna, you're gonna get an email, Task Force members are just asking you for your input on who you want to hear from, from our community, from our government agencies, from our community resources, community organizations, ground, you know, grass roots organizations. Who do you want to hear from? Either, and these will happen in several places. We want to make sure that we create a wide variety of opportunities to have different types of listening sessions. Again, a culture of listening across this community. It also helped us get to know our resource partners, our community resource partners, but other roundtables could include reentry or gun violence, victims of survivors of abuse, addressing collective trauma, spiritual supporters. We have a lot of, we want to use your imagination and dream about who you really want to hear from, so that we're not missing anyone in this process. And so that's the next step is really to one, let us know who you want to hear from. And as we're doing that, we're going to come back to you and ask you, okay, well, which one of these roundtables would you like to be a part of? Because we need to take this wonderful group and divide you up so that we can really cover the community and do some intimate listening, some larger town halls, some 10 to 12 person roundtables. It could look many different ways. So we will definitely, just we're definitely going to split up like that in halls. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that in the chat, just to say we should split up and hold more than three listening sessions. The three listening sessions was just our bylaw, you know, what we were required to do. We've already gotten to, you know, we've already heard from two groups. And so we're going to really spread this out and get as many voices on record as possible. And so I'll, again, we're going to ask you once we get that done, and once we realize, okay, here are the priorities based on what we're hearing from the task force and from the community. Let's go ahead and get these going and ask you to identify which ones you want to surf on. I should back to you. Yeah, and I'd like to also add, Jesse, thank you for that comment. When we think about listening sessions, I hope we create, we have listening sessions the whole time we're meeting. As long as we exist, I feel there's, we could have small listening sessions. I'd like to listen to the folks who are incarcerated in our jail. I'd like to listen to our folks that are living in transitional housing. I would like to hear the PTAs. I would, I mean, we can have, I hope that we can really create a culture of listening where we have that time and those talents to listen to one another. Yeah, I guess I'm just, I'm wanting to clarify, because in my mind, when I was understanding roundtables or listening sessions, I was conceiving of that as separate from what we're doing in these public meetings. And for a second, I heard you say Xavier, that we had already had two of those, which made it sound like the first listening session was with Didi and Manju from two weeks ago. And then Gudrin was the second one. Is that the case? That's how I see it. It's the first of many. Yes, sir. Okay, I understand. Yeah. I think in my mind, I'm realizing we're holding listening session very openly, very broadly, that there's a lot of imagination for what those sessions for listening can look like. And that's fair. That makes sense to making sure I'm clear. I have a request of this group as you all think about the communities that you're listening to because it's going to take more effort is making sure that you're going into multilingual spaces because those are often communities and it's not just the Latinx or Latino community. We have a lot of refugees in our community and they are very, very often not included at all. And that's a bigger lift. And so that will take some coordination, I think on the city side, but there are resources to help with that. So if folks get into that and get into the weeds, please reach out and I will more than happily help connect folks to the language needs that may be needed. Thank you. That's fantastic. Absolutely. Yes, I think that we're looking, we are doing what we were required to do with the listening sessions. And then I feel like it's, we can be as creative as we wanna be and as broad and deep and wide. Is there anything you'd like to add, Xavier? I think we're getting ready to close. Anything you'd like to add, anyone? I would love to lift a thing that I saw Chitoya share in the chat box in case folks didn't get to see it. And maybe Chitoya, you just wanna share it aloud yourself, but we were in the midst of the conversation about the jail and you had an observation. Yes. Thank you, Mindjie. Sometimes I'd be kinda hesitant when I'm over here feeling the type of way. Cause I'm just like, this is just not how it really is. And I know like, when you get like pre-screening for a jail, like when you first get there, it's not like, oh, this diagnosis, let us try to figure out what it is that you're going through. It's just like, do you have a problem? What meds do you need? Sometimes you don't even get the meds that you need. And then like, say you don't get the meds that you need and then you become suicidal, then they get what's called like a green suit and it's called the turtle suit.  And then they leave you in jail cell, like you don't get to come out. So then you're on like lockdown because now you don't have what you need.  Like I don't know like at what stage, like people need to get the help that they need. But when she said like the law enforcement, like figured, no, they don't figure out.  Like I was going through a therapy, I don't have mental health issues, but I was going through therapy when I got to jail. And I was like, well, where is the therapy? Like now y'all putting me in jail is more traumatizing. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, so y'all have therapy in here? There aren't therapists. Like one here is like clinicians, five clinicians. Like who was that? You know, like what are you giving people? Cause they don't have what they need. And it's just simple as that people get their meds, they do get their meds by saving them. So then they can sell them for a canteen because they don't have resources, don't have money to get put on their books. Like, and it's just, I don't understand. I'm just looking at this paper and I'm just like, it's not it. And I feel like when we listen to people, we need to make sure like, we already have access to feedback like this, but those folks aren't being listened to and they're being silenced. And we need to like uplift what has already been said. And as we create spaces for listening sessions and no shade to what Gudrun and other folks are offering us. But like people who aren't director of this that are experts at what is really going on. And like those are the people we need to listen to and we need to center. So that's where I'm coming. When I think of listening sessions, that's what I'm thinking about. These feel more like helpful presentations, you know, to kind of help shape the like kind of, to give us like a kind of map of like what's been going on. And so we have context, but yeah. So that's a part of why I was asking what was meant by listening sessions. And thank you to Toya for lifting that up and mind you for giving that space. Yes, I agree. Well, I agree with everything Toya said, but also while Gudrun was giving her presentation I was asking her questions in privately in the chat and she never did answer any of the questions that I asked her. But if you look on the map that she gave us if you see where it says risk assessments, I was asking her about why we can't have needs assessments as opposed to risk assessments. Because we know that people have needs that are not met. There is no risk once you're incarcerated. The only risk is to yourself.  The only risk is what the violence that the system puts on people's bodies once they get incarcerated. So for her to never answer that, I mean, I thank you Jesse for asking was this a listening session? Cause I really didn't know that this was a listening session because if it was a listening session I would have thought that we would have had more information out to the people to ask for the public to be more present and to be able to hear that this is what we have, that we know that there's a big problem with pre-trial from folks who have been formally incarcerated, incarcerated people who are here, who, you know, bail people out and who help people once they leave that jail. There is a big disconnect with pre-trial and what Gudrun and them are doing and actually listening to the folks. Song had several meetings with Gudrun asking about doing participatory defense at the jail having public defenders at the magistrate office to advocate for folks before they get these bonds that they can't afford to pay. And none of those things have been addressed. And they clearly were not addressed in the mapping that they gave us. They still are not addressing the needs of the people. They're just putting more balance on the bodies of the people that are being incarcerated. So if we can, when we decide to do another listening session, if we can have the opportunity to do more outreach, to get more people from the community to be able to weigh in on what they feel needs to happen because yeah, I can speak for folks who have been formally incarcerated or directly impacted, but I'm just one voice to allow those voices to be in the space and have them use the power that they have. If we're not willing to hand over our collective power to folks, then what are we doing? Yeah, and that's the future for us. I mean, this is when we're all together. We've got to get some business done. We've got to get organized, but that is exactly why this is such a great task force because we have experienced people who know. So we will, not just one listening session, we can have every kind of listening session you want addressing all those, it can be as specific as you choose and we can reach into the community just like you said. I mean, yeah, this is just the beginning. These meetings with all of us is not where the listening, the kind of listening session I think we're all dreaming about, anticipating, desiring. This is a more formal group and it's all the group, but we have a bylaw mandate that said we have to do three listening sessions immediately. And so we are doing that. And I think that I think it's so far, so good. And I just, again, Toya, thank you Ann Muffin. This is what we're depending on is our relationships to Durham, to our neighbors, our friends, our families who will bring forth our truth, our experience and from that, a new way of doing things in Durham. So thanks, I'm just so grateful. And I think Gudrun probably didn't answer those because she was presenting. I'll make sure, I'll capture that chat and talk, speak with her because I know she'll want to answer your questions. So with that. That's actually a great thought in terms of next steps. I heard you say you want to move on, next steps, I heard you say you want to move to next steps. Maybe Muffin, if you would be willing to share what your questions to her were, those could be questions from the task force to the Criminal Justice Resource Center. We'd like answers for why we're doing risk assessment instead of needs assessment when we know needs are going unmet. And thanks, Toya, for putting your experience out there. Like it is not easy. And we know that there's like listeners in this space. This is a public space. And I really don't want to underestimate the meaning and importance of being willing to share our truths here. Amen. That's right. That is exactly right. Wherever time. So, but we're going to get back together soon. And in the meantime, we can do lots of things. So, let's keep that, let's keep our connections open and flowing. And the next meeting will be May 26th. And looking forward to that, seeing your beautiful faces again. And with that, I think it's time to close. What do you think, Xavier? Sorry, Marcia, maybe you lift these two comments that Amber just shared into the chat. These were comments that popped up in the YouTube chat, which is another place where members of the public are interacting with our conversation from Jan Herman. I beg this task force to look hard at the harmful ways the parole and probation systems keep people sucked into their harms, a round table for those who've endured probation and parole after incarceration. That's right. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And keep it coming, y'all. I mean, this is exactly what we want. Absolutely. And it can't all be in the chat because we're only in this chat for this very small amount of time, right? So please, every Durham, everybody who cares, who's touching this and wants to get used that community safety at durhamnc.gov, email, and that will, and we can all share that and we can answer it. And yeah, for me, I don't know how y'all do this chat and listen to people. I, you know, you're fabulous. You have talents I do not possess. So again, an email gives me time to reflect or read and I know that it's not sprawling, so that's nice. Xavier, anything you'd like to say before we close? Well, again, I'm just, as always, humble to be around experts, you know, to me, the word expert is really an experience. If I've always want to lean into those who are experiencing whatever we're talking about. So I appreciate all of the comments and I'm humbled to be around you. Me too. It really is an honor to be serving with y'all. No doubt about it. With that, would we, let's, you know, we end our meetings with, if everyone would share word on what you're taking from this time together that excites you. And I'll get first, I guess I want to stay experienced and I will pass it to Manju. Just really grateful for the generosity of everyone present. Thank you. Passing it to Tyler or passing it to Issac. Feeling a little antsy to keep going on this work. And I will pass it to Toya. Drive. And I'm passing it to Tanya. I am ready, ready to get into the community, ready to get the work started. And I'm going to pass it to Samuel. Thank you. I'm leaving with a lot more insight and definitely some excitement to help solve these issues. And I'll pass it on to Dr. Carol. Oh, I am excited. I'm excited. I can't remember the last time I was in a group where we didn't have to take someone through human rights and dignity 101 at the door. And I think that we are going to align and hopefully do some really good work and I'll pass it to Jesse. My word is fortitude. Mental and emotional strength in facing difficulty and adversity, adversity, fortitude. And I will pass it back to Mike who called me pound cake because I make really good pound cakes and he's had a slice. We can, something we can all look forward to at the end. I would say motivated and I'll pass it to Muffin. I will say encouragement because I'm leaving with encouragement that this task force will be what I imagine and envision it to be. And I will pass it to Amber. Hey, y'all. I think I'm leaving just with the sense of realness that I think Andrea and Joy shared with us tonight. Oh, I'm passing to Mike. Have you gone? Oh, you have gone. Okay, Shanice. Hey, I'm leaving with inspiration and agency. Grateful for all the agency that was taken up today. And who has not gone? I will pass it to Javier. Deliberation. That's what I'm leaving with. That we need to be very deliberate because I know that it will get us what we need. I will pass it to, I think Alec, you haven't gone yet. Yeah, I'm leaving with a sense of responsibility. And yeah, I'll pass to Dr. Ajay soon to be doctor. Thank you, Alec. I am leaving with gratitude again, honored and just so grateful to help you all in your purpose driven mission in achieving that. I'll pass it to, has Samuel gone yet? Okay, I'm sorry. Marcia. Well, I'll go again.   I'm sorry, Xavier. I want to say belonging. I just can't help it. And I will pass it to Dwayne. I leave with graciousness, graciousness in knowing that we come with different perspectives to the table and we have lots of knowledge to share with each other and that we're to be gracious with each other in how we share this knowledge and the back post substance of the knowledge that is shared. Xavier. And I just pass, I mean, I leave here just knowing that I'm blessed and that we are not here by accident. This is meant to happen with these people in this way. I'm just blessed to be a part of it. I believe that was, Tyler, are you with us? Did you want a chance? I just got back off the call at 730. I know I missed something. We just, Marcia, go ahead. Yeah, just share a word with it. How, what are you taking from this time together that you're excited about? I'm really excited to hear what Tonya had to say. Yeah, we can actually pinpoint what the issues are and start to work with those directly. Great, great. What a wonderful, wonderful experience being with you all. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. And we'll be getting things going, Isaac. I promise. I promise. And until we meet again, every blessing to you. Thanks, y'all. Be safe. Bye, everybody.