Welcome. This is the Jenkins User Experience Special Interest Group. It's May 25th, 2022. Let's get the attendee list here correct. Thanks for joining. Topics I had on the agenda for today include, oh good, Jan's here, excellent. So I had preparing for June LTS as one topic to see if there were additional changes we need to discuss here that should be backported. UI improvements, Jan and Tim wanted to allow time here, particularly Tim if you wanted to highlight the new login screen or any other topics. And I had included a topic for localization and crowd in enterprise if we've got time. Any other topics that need to be added to the agenda. Okay, great. And then, then for me the first topic was prepping for the June LTS there are some, some things that were mentioned or are open as pull request to Jenkins core that Tim I wanted to use as a chance to check with you and with young to see if there are things where you say, hey this should be backported or that should be. For example, there was this Java 17, there were a couple of Java 17 related things. Is it okay if those wait till dot two or dot three. They're not really UI related so I guess maybe I'm out of out of order asking here but to the Java 17. Yeah, I don't think the Java 17 one needs backporting. Okay, good. But I wouldn't rush to backport them. Right, give it a few weeks to bake in weekly. Good. Okay. Now there was this one on the inbound cookie key for for a specific one for remoting. Yeah, it seems like Vincent is trying to get that get up. I think he can request it if he wants to be in dot one. Otherwise, it'll go on to dot two issue. Okay. All right. And then on the closed list, this open search to use the newer Jenkins logo actually seemed safe to me but I wasn't sure if it's important enough to consider a backboard. No one's noticed in 10 years. Ah, good. Okay, other than other than yeah. Got it. Okay. All right. So, so and this one I think the new layout for remote class loader stats was already backported if I remember right. No maybe not this one was not but it's and again it's it could wait till dot two. It's a feature sort of one that wouldn't normally backport it we might bring into a dot one, but we probably wouldn't. I guess it's kind of out of sync with the rest of the UI, but Yeah, but quite relatively harmless right yes it's out of sync but it's it's certainly not a functional functional damage thing. It's probably class as a bug by not matching the rest of the UI. Right. So if you want to backport I would change it to be a bug. Otherwise it won't shop and any filters. Oh, all right. Okay. All right. Good thank you so we'll just follow the following the usual process for backports to propose backwards and make them happen. Great. Any other guidance you want to give their Tim on prepping for the June LTS. No, I think we're good. Good. All right and my my interactive testing with the release candidate has been really positive. Next topic then UI improvements young or Tim are there any topics you would like to bring here there for discussion. I've got the one. keyboard shortcuts on Jenkins. That would be cool.  Yeah, I can share my screen effects. All right. All right, so let me stop. Sweet. All right. It's just a small thing that I've been toying with. You guys see my screen. Awesome. Okay. And so the whole idea is just to kind of improve navigation around Jenkins. And with the use of keyboard shortcuts and save we go to open up a project, you'll now see that certain actions have little keys assigned to them. And so you can press these keys on the keyboard to actually activate those.  Press S to go to the configure screen. Just works like that. If we open up an actual build, you can press C to quickly go to your console, or you can press J or K to flick between different builds. So via J goes to the previous build, hit K. Goes to the next. If you press command K. It'll focus the search bar so you can instantly start typing. Hello world. You can instantly start doing that. So you have to move your cursor. And there's also a handy little dialogue you can open to see the available keyboard shortcuts for a page. So if you hit keyboard shortcuts in the photo, you'll get this small little model will just explain the different keyboard shortcuts are available to you. Kind of interact with them whilst this dialogue is open about actually interviewing the page so you can try them out without doing any damage. So if I press command K, you'll notice the search kind of option highlights. Press C console does it then J or question mark to the keyboard shortcut dialogue. So it's a really simple look at it really. There's not a whole lot to it right now. Just for an exploration into how keyboard shortcuts could work on Jenkins and it's actually any benefit. So I don't have any questions or anything. Okay, how do, how do we, how do we referee or control who adds which shortcut so be feels like a great shortcut for build now but I happen to be named Bob and I think Bob should be the preferred shortcut and I'm going to create a plug in the Bob. No, sorry bad example but you probably get my idea. Yeah. There's nothing right now in the kind of prototype to stop that. But ideally would have some sort of exception for if you try to kind of override a call Jenkins keyboard shortcut. All the way they're implemented right now is that just data attributes. So you can see that, but for the build now option that just has a data keyboard shortcut be. And also has a shortcut title as well which displays on the dialogue that opens. So it's really easy to touch the implement in a plug or anything, but nothing to actually stop overriding anything just yet. But if you want to go through with this then that would be pretty quite straightforward to add. So, so this feels like you're making it much easier for me now to to interact with single key key actions, somewhat similar to how I use a slash to search GitHub. That's that's sort of the idea right it's it gives me that looks for any, any problems you've encountered or things where you saw Oh hey this is a risk for this area that okay the search dialogue for instance is is far from far from the capabilities that I would dream we had there. You know it's it's not quite doing all the things we'd want, but are there other things that you've seen Oh here potential struggles or challenges with it. Nothing too crazy. Say for example about this shared components, if you had a keyboard truck to a shared component that keyboard truck applies to everywhere that components used. It would kind of cause issues if you're not careful without your planet. For example, I wanted to show that that would take you to the most recent build of a project. So I applied it to this little button here thinking that being a straightforward place to add it. But on the homepage that components were used so that kind of interfere with the homepage then. And care does need to be taken to make sure that we're not kind of making kind of too many shortcuts for example but nothing, nothing too crazy running. So the, so the, the component reuse point that you made then is that, if, if I define a keyboard shortcut, it's available anywhere that component is used that defines the shortcut and in this case, top level page would have potentially many, many entries many rows, each one that has the same exact shortcut defined, taking me to the console of that thing and that that would, I assume give unexpected results. Yeah. So just four points I have concerning that approach. So first one, thank you for the proposal in terms of accessibility user experience for poor user it seemed to be a very nice approach. I will say the drawback is that we will have to increase the performance of Jenkins to suit this kind of feature we are proposing to the user but that's the more interesting aspect. If you have any questions concerning this feature, could you just open one page with the shortcut being visible with the keystrokes. Yeah, if you move the cursor on top of the w for example, are you seeing a title. Okay, so my first guess there is that we are getting a lot of questions, what are these kind of icon for people that are not used to have such keyboard being displayed It could be interesting to have a title to say hey it's a shortcut to do this kind of thing. See the dog or anything that is just useful for the final user. Second point, is it possible and the moment or do you plan to do it to disable completely the future. My gut feeling with what I have seen in the past is that this kind of feature is very good most of the time, except for some pages where the JavaScript is perhaps a bit not really good practice following good practices and interacting with expected features. For example, if you're starting to write something in the search bar and the JavaScript is perhaps not written correctly, your keystroke inside the search bar could trigger some shortcut. That happened to me in a lot of application and that was a bit painful. So is there a possibility to disable that behavior completely. And I will say as a last question, due to the question from Mark in terms of extensibility there, what do you plan to do if two plugins are proposing the same shortcut. Sure. So that first one was really good about the kind of tool tip or title showing. It could totally be confusing if you're not sure what these little keys mean. So that's really awesome. So I can definitely add like a tool tip or something more. You can just even remove them and relied on the modal could be an option. Not too sure what the best kind of approaches right now but it's definitely worth exploring. And as for say you're typing in the search bar, and you press one of the keys that are kind of assigned to say sidebar item for example, and the library we're using for this disables the keyboard shortcuts if you're entering input. That's not an issue. Thankfully, I will say when you know what you are doing, and there was a lot of plug in where the people does not really know what they were doing. I'm just afraid of this kind of possibilities in terms of regression. And then for the last point. I think we're going to need some sort of, maybe a lot of system in the console, for example, to kind of flag if a shock that's been kind of overwritten or if it's being used twice. You certainly won't want to press a button have two different things happen. That'd be pretty horrific. So something that could flag, say a platform developer before they try to release it would be really, really helpful. And perhaps as a first iteration, do not even try to put such shortcut for the dangerous action. For example, the delete project is kind of think, I will say it's already too easy for people to click on this kind of thing before desiring to click there. So just a good feeling. Now, now to sort of as a counter though to vatic your point, we already have symbol annotations that have the risk that users care that a plug in a maintainer can just like Mark weight made the mistake of doing can define a symbol get that in fact it's a pipeline step get and is not a good thing. So, so, so this collision thing we've already got but I think it's it's worth if there are ways to avoid hitting the collisions or warn people about a collision that's that's certainly healthy. Yeah, especially because there are not a lot of letters or keyboard that you can use compel to full symbols. And also in Jenkins we have something that is a bit particular. Some action could be displayed depending of some condition depending of some context or it's even more difficult for some plug in maintainer to know if they're creating something in conflict or not. Thank you, Jan. Thanks very much. I'll stop trying if that's all right. Okay, anything else that you wanted to share on that topic again. I'm nothing on that topic. You did mention kind of updating the search feature. And I gave a demo on that kind of a few months ago now. Back on one of the way back in the day meetings. I've kind of picked that up again. And process kind of reworking it looking a bit kind of easy to maintain. Which feature was that sorry. You know the kind of search modal. Oh yeah yeah search of the input would have a kind of modal pop up and you could kind of search on the screen.  You'd find in kind of visual studio code or something like that. It's really easy to find different options on Jenkins. But hopefully have something to download on that maybe next time. If I can get a bit more fleshed out. That's everything. Excellent. Thank you. Thanks very very much. So on that theme if if everybody if others would be okay with it I wanted to bring a specific topic up that sort of I think relates to what Jan was just saying it's this German language edition of an accessibility assessment. Would you be okay if I bring that to the to the group now out of sort of out of order. Objections good. So I was contacted by a person from I believe check the Czech Republic, or from Croatia, I forget exactly where. But what they were suggesting was hey they did this 60 page assessment of Jenkins accessibility as part of a company requested company purchase thing from some someone and they, they asked us hey are you interested in this report. And how is the best way to bring this report to the Jenkins project if you are interested. It's right now German language, it's right now private to them. So it's, it's not a public document yet but they've offered to translate it to English, and to be available now my question to, to the exig was, is that of interest, and how would what would be the most approachable if it is of interest to bring that report for for discussion and consideration. Yeah, how have you handled those kinds of things before Tim likewise and Basel I think you're the three most experience in these sort of spaces I'd be interested. What would work well or poorly for you. An issue like an issue on issues touching us I owe with it attached should be the start and then someone to review it and create issues in an epic out of it. If there's anything that looks like it's worth doing. If we started with attached the master PDF file to an epic in Jira and then create sub items as we as we need to as we feel to, based on those because none of these things are a commitment in any way they're all hey what can we do. We don't have interest, etc, but you would be okay if we put an archive or copy of that PDF on that top level epic and then used issues in Jira to report record things or if someone said hey I'm going to I'm going to try to improve this. They create an issue based on that report and record it there that would be okay. That's a good place to start. And there's probably a lot of low hanging fruit that we could find in that report. I imagine some things will be easy to fix and others might be bigger projects. But if there's things that are easy then it would be good to make no bite sized tasks in Jira, and we could even advertise those as part of you know future hackathons or contribute thongs. If there are simple things that could be fixed in a short amount of time it would provide some accessibility value then that could be a good opportunity to advertise those broader audience. I'd be happy to work on I'd be happy to try to work on splitting some of those issues up into Jira projects. Alright, thank you. Okay, so I'll I'll talk with them. Talk with them see if I can persuade them I think they've actually shared the German language document with me, and I've stated that they're willing for it to be made public. But let me double check with them. And if so then I'll likely upload the German language document and and see if they're willing to translate if they're not willing to translate. So they have the option of using the German language document as as it exists. Great, thank you. Alright, so that that covered that topic. Tim, did you want to do anything additional you want to highlight the new login screen or anything like that. Are there any other things on UI that you wanted to talk to. I'm not doing a quick review of the open progress but you could just you could just quickly share your screen on weekly.ci.jinkans.io. Okay, let me do the login screen.  And you should now see the meeting notes and if I just go to weekly and click login. So the inputs are consistent with the rest of Jenkins now checkboxes actually have a focus state previously they didn't have a focus state but it wasn't really noticed because you had to tab off past the sign in button. And there's no sign up enabled on this instance but similar sort of things applied to the sign up page. The main reason of doing this was there was a pull request open to year or two back, which wanted to move to keep me signed in box to after the password input. But it was quite misaligned it was kind of not even was kind of indented a whole bunch randomly. So that was the reason to do that but then I found that the focus state didn't work and it was another issue. It was just a lot more consistent with the rest of Jenkins ago also. I think that code now was was completely isolated before but it's now pulling in the less files for the components or the components that we're using are imported in those files rather than copy pasting of CSS and using different CSS. So should be a lot easier to manage these pages going forward. So this is much less of a one off as a page than it was before and it looks the same as as other fields that are in Jenkins now for this upcoming LTS. Great for a week. There might still be a little bit of CSS but I deleted a lot of CSS and imported the existing components. Excellent. Thank you. To remind others weekly dot Jenkins dot ci dot Jenkins that IO continues to be updated. Yes, it's now running to that 349 was released on Tuesday and the design library is here and gives you a great chance to look at and see how, how, how you can do implementations of UI components in modernizing. So thanks very much Tim thanks young thank you thank you. We're working on a extension points in the theme manager at the moment to allow other plugins to contribute theming configuration to one area. So you don't have to have each plugin having its own theming section and then adding looking at adding a properties map to that where each theme can set the recommended theme. This is going to be for that plugin, which is going to be for the prism API prism API plugin which is a source code highlighter JavaScript and CSS library. I've got a pull request on the design library plug in which see integrates with prism API but it's not the best user experience. The user has to go and manually set their things theme and their configuration and like we never work on that weekly dot ci dot Jenkins.io. The theme should suggest the default theme and changes from default to theme matches matches theme or something. And yeah, and they're probably split the prism API plugin because it's got dependencies on the bootstrap plug in and the plugin util API and something else seems a bit heavy for what it is, even if they're kind of already installed everywhere. But yeah. It's because we also want to use this in the configurations code plugin, which is very dependency lights and even if those dependencies kind of find it'd be nice not to include them. But yeah, so that should be coming and so we're using the dark theme will not only be blinded with the code blocks and yeah and tried to hack that into the plugin as well. Just with some CSS server rides but hopefully we won't need those. Excellent. And now theme ability, the symbols that we're using now in the UI so they they have the benefit that they are themeable so they, they when I switched to dark theme, they don't become invisible right they really are usable and still ready to go. Excellent. Yeah, I think we just got the dark theme doesn't seem to be set on that weekly but we can probably hold off sitting out until card blocks react properly. All right. Anything else you wanted to highlight there. Just check how we are on the poor requests. Oh right you had suggested that just a minute let me get. Let's open up this. So this is Jenkins core pull request right. So got sex open at the moment. And so you were looking at Web UI. Yeah. Yeah, let's make it so I can read it with my bad eyes great. So, we're kind of stuck on the tipy one until matrix off. Actually, is Adrian here Adrian you're here. Did you see some of the tipy one if you go down to the bottom mark. You having an issue when you tested it do you know if you tested it with the poor request that adapts that makes it compatible. No, I tried on the other on installing the plugin I need to yeah I will I will check that sorry I didn't see your message before this meeting. I'll make sure to test with the appropriate build of the metric of. Yeah, that should fix it. I've applied the same fix on to these your ad plugin as well and that's released already. But having trouble getting hold of Daniel pinging for the last few weeks. If anyone wants to pass along the message. Yeah, sure. So what what's needed here is that one needs to be needs to be merged and released. Yeah, and one of the problem we have is that there's no easy way to override plugins and acceptance test harness doesn't increment it doesn't integrate with incrementals at all. I think we could add some hacky code with the current setup we could add some hacky code to the Jenkins file to download the plugins and put them in a specific directory. But it's not very nice. So we'd either need to come up with a more generic handling of it. Well currently we've kind of just been waiting for that to be released. But it's kind of annoying is we don't really have a way of testing the impact of a plug and change it in the acceptance test harness. We can handle core changes very easily but we can't really handle plug and changes. We can run it by like running the whole suite someone can locally run it and do what they need to but as that's a problem at the moment because a lot of plugins depend on matrix or and because the matrix and the matrix or part of ATH is failing and that causes a lot of tests to fail so we don't know if those tests are impacted until this is released. Okay, and now this this change, I assume it's it's still compatible with the pre tippy world. It's completely compatible. It's got to multiple levels of compatibility because changed in like 2.235 to 2.335 and praise or yeah, so I think when checkbox has changed all these levels of compatibility. Okay. And but yeah so that's what's holding that one up. Yeah, that's one's quite a good one because I think it should fix cross site scripting issues like generically across tooltips anyway. It removes the problem by not executing HTML in the default attribute you have to supply your own attributes after explicitly opt into it. So rather than the default it's an opt in behavior to be able to supply HTML. And now will that that change alter things like the markdown plugin that I use for instance I assume it won't be only a tooltips. Oh right sorry I'm, I should learn to read yeah tooltip specific and so the thing I'm doing is not tooltips maybe the badge plugin might be touched then because I think it does to tooltips okay thanks. Yeah, so the, I think the only was very very little places use HTML and that we've allowed us to some very common ones which are BR basically quite a few places use BR to create a new line. We've allowed that sort of, apart from that the only other place I found so far is the matrix author uses a strong tag tag to make some text bold. And that's pretty much about it I think I'm not sure. Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. Anything you want to review on other other of these web UI pull requests that are pending. So just going through them. I was just going to give a quick update. So the tango one Alex well like or anyone. There's some unit tests failing with it just needs someone to look at the unit tests. It's really vulnerable because they generally rely on some sort of image and the image gets removed or changed or gets bought to be an SVG from an image and these tests these sort of tests fail all the time. Okay. Thanks. The next one's configure project. I think. I can't remember what's wrong with that should be a comment on it though. PCT. So bomb tests are failing in a few plugins not very many. Well some weird undefined era when it's trying to add the event selected but I like it's hard to tell because I think it only gives the line number of one but it looks like it's saying basically window is undefined because it's literally accessing window. As far as I know. I tried running the plugin tests locally with without PCT and it seemed fine. I created a mega war and then I ran out of time to try and reproduce it actually in PCT and try and debug interactively, but it's from looking at it so far.  Okay, so, so and now this workflow job plugin that needs a release. Has that actually been released in the check box. Don't know it might have been merged yesterday so possibly now. I think it was released yesterday. Okay, yeah, because I believe this plugin is doing continuous delivery right. Yeah, so it's probably delivered. Okay, great. I'll update that. Yeah, so it's just the PCT whether any more action items for the changes to adapt the folders plugin and work and the workflow job plugin to display the new UI features because we had some pull requests for those that are not. They're not blocking this change but they're related to it in that they would they would allow other plugins to use this new feature. So the forward compatibility is fixed and for folders that I think that PR has been reviewed and tested and it's ready for when the core is released. It's not very easy to make it for compatible to be a lot. There's a lot of changes in the markup. Right, so great. So that's really all I was asking was whether there's any additional action items for those and it sounds like it's not like we just need to wait for core to be released and for the plugin maintainer to be willing to adjust the baseline and then those other two can be released sounds great. Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, once that ones and I want to change the configure cloud pages to use the same design, because I hate that page. It's so hard to find stuff it gets so big. And I've wanted something like this for a long time. Great. So anything that you want to review on other topics here Tim. I think we I think. So the next one HHH tests are failing. So I think I think some HHH tests have started failing. So I need to check. We need to fix them and get them passing again. And it kind of comes back to Basil's some of the HHH stuff from the mailing list. But yeah, I would be good to have a way that it doesn't randomly break. Yeah, so this is so you're saying this is the one you're describing right where. No, it's the one I was talking about with fixed spacing and job conflict page. So PR looks good and straightforward. There is something like 12 tests failing and so I need to check if the legitimate failures and the and well either way they need fixing. We don't really want to be making judgment calls because as has happened previously they are just shadowing. So when those tests were fixed, they actually failed later on. So I don't really want to be accepting things with the test failing that effect it. Right, right. Okay, so this is the one where the before has this gap here between GitHub project and pipeline speed durability and the after gets rid of that that gap so that it looks consistent. Yeah. Got it. Okay, thank you. Yeah. And the form validation one has got changes of function or moves of function or something which a few plugins relying on. Okay. Get parameter plugin we had some of probably had some of the problems we have problems with that during tables to do as well as doing some weird stuff for form validation I think. Yeah, get parameter plugin is also bundling an outdated jQuery that we would love to get rid of so they're the get parameter plugin has a number of challenges. Did you get a chance to look at that young. I've not had a proper look yet. I didn't run it but I couldn't get the exception to occur. And it was on this post, but it's definitely using some custom validation objects that we get to kind of remove if possible but I'm not really sure what it's doing at the moment. Okay, so that what you're referring to young is described here in turn in the comments. Yeah. Great. All right, thank you. Okay. Excellent. Anything else on on the open poll request for web UI. No, I think that's it. Okay. All right. So, other one question for you young I guess is, how, how do you get on with the like with a replacement icons be quite good to get those and at some point. They're still similar branch, the way I went about it was a bit of a kind of refactor of how the ball kind of component worked. So after the kind of symbol pure went in that kind of broke a few areas is a bit kind of hesitant to kind of open it. Definitely kind of bring it up to date with master and see what it's like now. Or we could alternatively just do about the refactor and just replace the symbols in the SVG if that makes sense directly. Yeah, whatever makes sense I guess. It would be nice to have the kind of weather icons accessible as Jenkins symbols. Yeah, that would be good. So, so to be sure I understand that's, let's go back to weekly so the weather icons, oh they're probably, oh there is a job here okay so this is a weather icon right and that is not currently done as a symbol. No, that's, it's a weird kind of, we used to have a ball back in the day and there's a whole component based around it and it's all kind of hierarchy. It's a bit weird. So I looked at replacing that to make it a bit simpler, and also integrated with the new symbols we've got. But just a bit hesitant if any problem to use that and what I don't want to break anything touch what. All right. Okay, any other topics there. What I had was localization and crowd and enterprise. Just to give thanks to Alex Brown does who's been doing wonderful things with crowd in Jenkins.io thanks to crowd and enterprise for donating the license and thanks to translators like Bruno and Alex and Chris Stern, we've got translations. So right now we've got is it seven or eight different plugins that are working through here. And we hope soon to do some highlights on how you internationalize Jenkins plugins to encourage more of this sort of work. Yeah, it's really, hopefully, hopefully it becomes really useful. But yeah, I think it's, as I mentioned on the main list to be really good to revive one of those translation assistance plugins and localization plugin and kind of link into here maybe. Right. Yeah, so if, if we could find a way to well so for instance to jump into something that shows the string native language from inside the Jenkins UI and encourages people hey contributed translation here. Yeah, I think that that that feels like a really, a really great idea. Yeah I think that existing plugin has 25,000 installations or something around that order. You know updating it and releasing a new version would essentially expose 10s of 1000s of people to this new crowd and website, which is a lot more people than you could expose then just by advertising on a few mailing lists. Right. I think that could be a powerful way of funneling contributions in. Yeah. And if we want even more than that we could even install it by default in the suggested plugins list. I wouldn't be opposed to that either. And then that would that would escalate the funnel to maybe 200,000 instead of 25,000. Good insight thank you. If you have other items on localization and crowd in, then I've got one more item that I wanted to add to the agenda just to ask for advice, and I, this is piracy of the agenda. But I wanted to ask about a UI thing that I'm considering doing to one of my plugins but I wanted young and Tim while you're here to guide me on this so I've got a plugin that I maintain called job priorities it puts itself over here on the left hand sidebar. I don't think it helps users being there. Are there reasons why I should not move that into manage Jenkins so that it's somehow we're in here. Are there is there damage that I do if I attempt that kind of a move just like I don't find lockable resources particularly useful here. Is there a reason we should not move those into manage Jenkins or someplace else. One avoid sidebar links if you can they just take up space, they make you scroll down and, and then a lot of them aren't used very much to. Sometimes they're there if non privileged users need to need to use them. But you can also change that so that privileged users see it on the manage Jenkins page and non privileged users there. Another thing is, I tried to expose the manage Jenkins page to more users but kind of got blocked by Daniel. Thinking that existing initiatives will get very scared of other people started seeing that, but I was kind of trying to make it so that people would see credentials there and see and see a lie and sort of thing. So the smaller tasks that less privileged users, they just exposed that page up a bit more. But yeah, especially if I don't know who can change job priorities at the moment. Me. Like, as a, as a user of Jenkins, who can, who has permission to manage job priorities. There's a facility that allows non admin users to modify it, but I like your idea that I could hide it on the admin page for admin users, and only put it on the sidebar for, for non admin users. That already gives me hope. So the credentials plugin as an example of that so it does that. Good. So I can look at somebody else's code. Good. All right, thank you. So, so for me similarly lockable resources now I don't, I'm not a maintainer of lockable resources but lockable resources has, has this this same kind of it's right there and I never use it. I don't know other people who use this, this sidebar link. So it could conceivably move to manage Jenkins. And, and then for non admin users, if it's needed be placed here as well. Great. Okay, thanks for the guidance. I see a maintainer on the call here. Oh, you do. Oh, very nice. I'm an I'm the interim. I call myself interim maintainer because I adopted to release a guava fix and no one else has stepped up since then. Yeah, well and awful table. An awful icon. Okay, any other topics for today. I think it is jarring because it's, it's the only I think it's the only icon on the left hand side that is an old style icon in the default installation in the, I mean in the default list of suggested plugins. And the support and support and blue ocean are also old style, as we can see in this view but I don't think that they're in the I don't think they're in the suggested plugins list. But the lot of resources is on my instance that's up to date that we use production. Those are the, those are the three ones that look very out of place. All right. Any other topics for today. Thanks everybody. I will stop the share stop the recording.


Dedicated to the strength of the nation, now heard of more than 1,300 radio stations. Proudly, we hail. Yes, proudly we hail, starring Martha Scott in Fagabond Dream, the United States Army and United States Air Force presentation. And now here is your producer, the well-known Hollywood showman, C.P. McGregor. Thank you, thank you, and greetings from Hollywood, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to your Theater of Stars, where Hollywood's glamorous and capable motion picture personalities appear in plays we know you'll enjoy. Two birthdays have now gone by for Proudly We Hail, and this program commences our third year on the air. And the celebrate, delightful Martha Scott is our Proudly We Hail star. She portrays a somewhat cynical miss, who is cast afloat in an unfriendly and gregarious world. A single dream seems to hold the key to her happiness, but with each dream comes the reality of awakening to further struggles. We'll have the curtain for act one in a moment. Here now is a brief message from Wendell Niles. Friends consider the soldier, the regular Army soldier. He has an interesting career of his own choosing. He is skilled in one of many trades or specialties. He can perform interesting work in interesting foreign countries. He receives the highest Army pay in history. If he wishes, and a large number do, he can continue his education through the Armed Forces Institute. And above all, he's helping keep America safe and at peace. Now once again, our producer. It's curtain time, and here's act one of Vagabond Dreams starring Martha Scott as Ruth. The scene is a small, all-night cafe in midtown Manhattan. The time is a little before midnight. The cafe is empty except for Charlie, the night cook and a girl who sits by the jute box and stares intently at the spinning record. The music seems to be having an almost hypnotic effect on her as if it were more than a mere combination of notes and rhythms as if it were contained some secret, some final answer to man's eternal quest. But New York is full of the unusual, and Charlie watches her with only a bored indifference when finally she turns to him and... Hear that tune, Charlie? Yeah. Like it? I guess so. Why? No reason. Except that I was playing that same record one night about a month ago in a little gypsy like this. Only it was in Ohio instead of New York, and the man behind the counter was named Tony. You know, one of those spots where all the truck drivers stopped for coffee? Only on this particular night I was the only customer. Then about 1130, he came in. I watched him. He seemed younger and thinner than most of the truck drivers I'd seen. When he got his coffee, he drank it in quick gulps as though he'd been waiting a long time for it. Then I walked down to his end of the counter and sat down beside him. Finally, he said... You want something? No. I just wanted to know how you liked this number. I wasn't listening. That's well. I spend my last nickel all the money I've got in the world for a song you're not even listening to. Why don't you tell me how you like it? Frankly, I wasn't listening either. That's what I thought. Say, I was watching through the front window when you pulled your truck in, driving alone? Yeah. New York? That's right. Must get kind of lonesome driving all night, alone. Look, I know what you're leading up to, but it's no good. Company rules. Oh, please, Mr. Give me a break. I know, and I just had to get to New York. Sorry. Sure. Sure, that's okay. Hey, where are you going? I don't know. What's the difference? Well, you can't walk to New York. That's right. I can't. So long, Mr. The next time you meet a girl playing a song with her last nickel, listen to it, will you? It may be her last song, too. Hey, wait a minute. What made you change your mind? I don't know. Maybe I thought that crack about a last song sounded a little too final. What's your name? Ruth. I'm Joe, Joe Clemens. Where's your home? Where's my home? That's a great question. Why? Because home is wherever I happen to be, that's why. Only I don't think home is quite the name for the places I've lived. You must have had a real home once. Where'd you start? Some place in the Middle West, I think. I don't know. It was so long ago, I can't remember anymore. What happened? Same old story. My folks had a fight, so my mother left home and took me with her. I was just a kid, maybe five years old. Go on. Well, a few months after that, she died. Nobody knew who I was, so they stuck me in an orphanage. Ten years of that life was enough for me, so I ran away. I've been on the move ever since. Well, that's it, Joe. You sound kind of bitter about it. Are you still young? You'll settle down someday. Oh, sure. I mean it. There's a place somewhere for you. It's the right place in this world for everybody. Didn't you ever have a dream? You know, sort of an ideal you could look forward to and believe in and work for? Such as? Well, take me, for instance. I want to have a home someday.  I suppose there's a girl in the picture, too. Well, I haven't found her yet, but I'll know her when I do. Yes, she'll be kind and gentle. She'll believe in things the way I do. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I know what you mean, Joe. You do? Sure. I used to think the way you do, Joe. I believed there was a place waiting for me, a place where I belonged. I used to dream about it almost every night. It was out in a country like this. A place like that shouldn't be tough to find? Yes, but this was a particular place. I could see it so clearly I could draw it.  I used to say when I found it, I'd settle down and spend the rest of my life there. Alone? No. No, there seemed to be somebody else. I can't quite... Oh, listen, let's cut this out, Joe. Dreams are for dopes. Not if you have hope. Hey, Joe! Joe, look out!  Ruth. Ruth, are you all right? What? Yeah. Yeah, I'm okay, are you? Yeah, I'm still in one piece, I think. What was it? Some farmer left his plow stick and hung it over the edge of the road. The truck was too wide to clear it. Well, there's no sense sitting here. No, let's get out and start hiking. Here, here, I'll give you a hand. Thanks, sir. I guess we'll head back to the cafe and phone from there. Oh, for quiet out here, isn't it? Sort of spooky. Yeah, maybe we ought to tell ghost stories. Ghost stories are just what we don't need. Let's hurry, Joe. Oh, oh. You hear that? Sounds like we're gonna get wet. Hey, look, up there on the left, that light. Let's run for it. Oh, if it's got a roof, it's good enough for me.  Joe. Oh, don't stop. We're almost there. Joe, look at it. What about it?  The house I was telling you about. That's just a coincidence. Come on. No, no, no, that's the one, Joe. I'm sure of it. I've dreamed about it too many times to be mistaken. Oh, Rose. Everything is just the way I used to see it, every detail. Joe, I have the strangest feeling. You mean you really believe that? Yes. Yes, I do, Joe. I feel as if I finally found a place I've been dreaming about all these years. As if my dream has suddenly come true. Oh, Rose, you're trembling. I'm frightened. Please don't leave me. Don't leave me, Joe. I sure feel it's good. Practically dry already. I don't know what we'd have done if we hadn't seen you like, Mr. Mason, or if you hadn't let us in. Well, in this house, anyone is welcome. As a matter of fact, I'm going to invite you two to spend the night with me. That's very kind of you. Oh, no, please. We don't think you're imposing on me. Well, is it okay with you, Rose? Oh, yes, Joe. I'd like nothing better. Good, good. It's all settled then.  Oh, oh, really? Maybe it sounds silly, but... Well, I'm almost sure this is the one. The longer I stay, the more certain I become. Hey, listen, I think it stopped raining. Sure. Look out through the window. You can even see the moon. Come on, Ruth. Let's go out on the porch. All right, Joe. When do you think it'd be so perfect? It's like a picture from some enchanted fairy land in a children's book. Just look at the raindrops in the moonlight, Joe, glittering like millions of sparkling diamonds. This air is so clean, fresh and cool. The hills over there, half in moonlight and half in shadow. Everything is so quiet and peaceful and beautiful and I... Oh, no, Joe, no. Ruth, what is it? I should have known it wasn't real. Dreams don't come true, Joe. Don't you see? The house that trees you with... This is the dream, Joe, and it won't last. But, Ruth, you're not dreaming? Do something for me, Joe. Sure.   Everything, I'm not. And when I wake from this dream, I want to remember you. So kiss me, Joe. Kiss me and make that part of my dream, too. Ruth. Please, I won't forget now. Will you stop talking like you're going to disappear in the night like a ghost or something? Remember what I said, Joe, about dreams being like movies? Yeah. Sooner or later they end and then someone turns on the lights and we're right back where we started. That's where I'll be in the morning, Joe. When the lights come on, the dream will be over and I'll be right back where I started. We'll pause briefly from our story, Bagobon Dreams starring Martha Scott to bring you an important message from your government. A lot of this year's high school graduates want to continue their education, but many can't afford it or are unable to enter school due to overcrowding or have to go to work. If you are one of these, the U.S. Army is your answer. Yes, in the Army, you will find all sorts of opportunities for further education. Take the Armed Forces Institute, for instance. For nominal fee, you'll be able to study all types of courses, from accounting to journalism, to mention just a couple. And many of these courses carry college credit. Thousands of servicemen have earned high school diplomas or equivalency certificates throughout the Armed Forces Institute. Yes, high school graduates, the Army offers you a valuable career with plenty of chances for education. But you get all of the facts at your local recruiting station right away. It will pay you to do so. Our curtain rises on Act 2 of Bagobon Dreams starring Martha Scott as Ruth. In a small all-night café in New York, a girl sits listening to a record on a jukebox. As she listens, she tells a story, a story of a dream, and a house in the country, and a man named Joe. So that's the way it was, Charlie. I hitched a ride with a truck driver and ended up detouring right into a dream. Well, what happened after that? Was it a dream or wasn't? That's what I asked myself the next morning. Because, you see, Charlie, when I woke up, I wasn't back where I started.  The sun was just coming up, and I went outdoors and sat on the front lawn all alone. And I began to feel happy. Really happy for the first time in my life. Then, about an hour later, Joe came out. Well, morning, early bird. How long have you been out? A long time. Sit down, Joe. Here, beside me. Okay. Oh, this is the life. Oh, perfect life. You still think it's all just a dream? Oh, I don't know what it is, Joe. Ruth, I've been doing some dreaming myself since last night. Now, after seeing you again this morning... Yes? If only I could describe to you how much you've changed since we've been here.  You're nothing like that girl I met last night in the cafe. Say, how long do you think we'll stay here? I mean, how long until your truck is fixed? Well, it's hard to say. I'm going to call the company in a few minutes. I suppose it'll take the rest of the day to get the truck running. Why? Do you see that hill over there, the highest one? Yeah. Let's climb it, Joe, just you and I. We could start right after you make the phone call. Well, if you really want to. I do want to, Joe. I want to find out what it feels like to be on top of things for a change. Way up on top. I can't run another step. This was your idea, remember? Come on. Just up over this little ledge now. There. I think we made it. Oh, just look down. Standing on top of the world. Oh, it's even better than that. I feel almost as if I own the world. Oh, you do own the world, Ruth. I'm giving it to you. Every hill and river and tray in sight. Then we can do anything we want, can't we, Joe? We can sit up on top of this hill for the rest of our lives and do nothing but rule our kingdom. We'll have to be a thousand years old. And everyone will love us because in our world there'll be nothing but peace and laughter and dreams come true. Oh, Joe, it's almost too much for me to bear. Are you happy? I never knew the word until today. It's a wonderful feeling, isn't it? Hold me, Joe. It all happened so fast. So very fast. No, Joe. Ruth, what's the matter? I don't know. There must be something. Why'd you pull away from me? It was like a sudden cold wind. A feeling that came over me. Joe, I'm frightened. What are you talking about, Ruth? What feeling? The same one I had last night, but that this isn't going to last. Ruth, you've got to stop thinking that way. Nothing's gonna happen. Let's go down, Joe. I don't like it up here anymore. Sure, that's what you wanted. We'll go down. Are you sure you're all right now? Of course. I'm sorry I spoiled our day. I just don't know what makes me fall into these moods. Well... Welcome back. How was the hike? It was swell, thanks. There was a repair crew from your company here a few minutes ago, Joe. They're down working on your truck now. I better get down and give them a hand, then. You wait here, Ruth. Don't be too long, Joe. I do my best to entertain them. If all else fails, there's always a family album. That would keep anyone out of trouble. I'll be back as soon as I can. It shouldn't take more than an hour. Oh, Mr. Mason, the job took a little longer than I expected. Where's Ruth? She's gone, Joe. Gone? Gone where? Wherever she was headed last night, I suppose. That doesn't make sense. What did she say? What reason did she give? Well, she only said that someone finally turned on the lights. Does that mean anything to you? Yeah. That's like she said. When the lights go on, the dream is over. We're all right back where we started. Well, that's the story, Charlie. When Joe came back, I was gone.  Maybe I'm dense or something, sister, but I still can't figure out why you ditched a guy. Well, let's just say that I figured out that dream I used to have. And that when I found out, well, everything was gone, see? No. I don't see. You've heard of love, haven't you, Charlie? Love? Now you're talking about love. Now you're talking in riddles. For some people, it means staying with the person you love no matter what happens. For others, well, I'm one of the others, Charlie. This is the way I have to show my love. Well, so long, Charlie. Well, how about a cup of coffee for you? Go on the house. No, but thanks anyway. Well, where you going? I'm going out and bury myself in the night, Charlie. Bury myself so deep that maybe I can forget what has got to be such a thing as another day. But I guess that doesn't make much sense to you either, does it? Joe, I couldn't have stayed a dream. Why did I have to find out, Joe? Why? We were going to sit on top of a hill and rule the world, remember, Joe? Just you and I. But I should have known those things aren't for me. I haven't even got a right to dream. But there's one thing I have got a right to do. Only one place I can go now and nobody can stop me. Nobody can stop me. Sure, there's nothing more you can do, Doctor. We've done everything we can, Mr. Clemens. Everything. But she does have a chance, doesn't she? If she wants it, yes. But it's all up to her now. Well, here's her room. Can I see her along, please? For five minutes. I'll call you. Thank you, Doctor. Well, you've been so long ever since the day you left. I might never have found you without your accident in the papers. Why? Why didn't you just forget me? Ruth. Yes? I found out why you've always dreamed about that house. Why you felt so strangely when you were there. What do you know?  That house was your home, wasn't it, Ruth? Yes. Yes, it was my home. I might never have known if I hadn't looked through the family album that day and recognized some of the pictures. Does he know? Your father? Yes, he knows. I didn't want him to find out. I wanted him to go on believing that maybe I'd made something in my life something worthwhile instead of this. That's one of the reasons I ran away that day. Was the other reason me?  That's not for me, Joe. It never could be me. It's not what you've been. It matters. It's what you can be. Don't you see, Joe, as long as it was a dream or even a dream come true, it was all right because it would have been a miracle. But then there would have been a chance for me to change too. It doesn't take a miracle to change a person, Ruth. We can all be whatever we want to be. I don't know what to believe anymore. We all have our dreams, Ruth. Your father's has been to find you again. Mine's been to settle down with the kind of person you can be if you try. You don't want to smash our dreams, too, do you? No, but... Well, then get well and come back. Do you really think there's a chance for me, for us? Of course there is, darling. Well, you've got a wife. I do, Joe. I do. But don't you see, you've got to have faith and work for your dream. It's all up to you, Ruth. I do see what you mean now, Joe. You do understand. Yes. Dreams can come true. But only when we make them come true. The Kirkland Falls and the final act for Bagobon Dream. Our star, Martha Scott, will return for a Kirkland call after this timely message from Wendell Niles. Next time you see a U.S. Air Force man, look him over carefully. Note how he carries himself in his trim-fitting uniform.  He's out to make a worthwhile career for himself in an important work, the work of keeping America free from aggression. He's skilled in one of many specialties connected with aviation. He may be an airplane mechanic, a radar man, a specialist in radio, or one of many others. The Air Force man likes his job and he's constantly working for the advancement open to the ambitious. He's well-clothed and well-fed, has good quarters, all provided by the government, and he receives good pay. He's taking advantage of the Air Force's many educational facilities. Yes, the U.S. Air Force is one of the finest of careers today. So, you young men who want to get ahead, why don't you get all of the facts at your recruiting station now? And I'll back at the microphone our star, Martha Scott and our producer. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to have you meet our delightful and most interesting star in person, Martha Scott. Martha, take a bow. Thank you, C.P. But congratulations are in order for you. I heard your announcement at curtain time. This is the first show starting the third year for Proudly We Hail. We are very grateful to the more than 100 stars like yourself who contribute their services and the 1,300 radio stations which air this program free.  Just think if I'd appeared when scheduled last week I would have missed it, but you know, my little boy's measles. We were all sorry to hear about that, but glad that you can be with us now since he's all right again. Oh, now he has the chicken pox. Oh, no. Mel, my husband, stayed home. He's assistant nurse in charge of the liquid diet. Well, I'd like to see Mel Powell music savant, doubling in liquids. Are you still digging up those old Dixieland records of Mel? Yes, and I'm getting plenty of resistance from him on that. But listen, C.P., I'm really doing it just tease him a little, see? Why, they are valuable. And by the way, I've been wanting to talk with you about the play you and Gregory Peck did in the East, Willow and I. I understand that you both plan to do it again at the La Jolla Playhouse this summer. You see, we opened before Christmas and during the newspaper strike in New York and those conditions really ruined us. The play is very beautiful, and we're so anxious to play it again. Success is a foregone conclusion, Martha. And I'll be down there first row center to catch it. And I'll be in my easy chair listening to you next week, C.P. What's the play, Bill? Well, next week, Martha and ladies and gentlemen, Angela Lansbury stars in our play The House on Lakewood Drive. And our literary jackpot provides some surprises and supplies us with a grand plot and some fine comedy situations. I'll be listening. And again, good luck, C.P., for your third proudly-we-hail year. Goodbye. Goodbye, Martha. And thank you. Please join us next week, ladies and gentlemen, when we present Angela Lansbury in The House on Lakewood Drive. Until next week, this is C.P. McGregor saying thanks for listening and Cheerio from Hollywood. Martha Scott appears with the courtesy of the Hollywood Coordinating Committee, which arranges for the appearance of all stars on this program. The story was by Harry Trelevin Jr. with orchestra under the direction of Eddie Scravane. This program is rebroadcast The Armed Forces Overseas through the worldwide facilities of the Armed Forces Radio Surface. Remember proudly we hail next time presents Angela Lansbury. This program was transcribed in Hollywood for release at this time.


Alright guys so hopefully in this video I'm going to be teaching you my method when it comes to reading now primarily this isn't my method I got this from one of the favorite books I've read of all time that's how to read a book by Mortimer Adler now the problem with most people today and listen I had a huge fucking problem for the longest period of my life I never read at all truth be told like I didn't fucking enjoy reading because it's how we were taught from the get go of how to read it's a very binary relationship when you think about it most people are ingrained from school it's very simple you know you get a book you open up and you read word for word and you literally forget 99% of things it's not an experience it's not a process you most people don't enjoy the process of opening up a book and having a relationship with the book and when I read Mortimer Adler's book how to read a book that kind of brought it up my mind of different ways you can have a relationship with books and so in this video I want to kind of quickly briefly go over some of his strategies when it comes reading book it's a very thick book so I highly recommend you get this I'm using the resource or Coles note from faster2master.com and I'll leave a link below on the show notes for this however basically kind of want to summarize I want to summarize the process because it's very simple it's a good checklist you can have when it comes to reading a better book and I have a great book in front of me right now I just had him on my podcast Oliver Haydorn PhD social credits and economics I'm about to dive into that over the holiday break and I'll use this as example today on how I'm gonna approach this book because if you look at it it's a thick motherfucker right it has about like 500 plus pages and so basically how it works is this and you know you can see the notes over here I'm gonna go through every single one but I'll leave a link so you can see it but the whole idea the premise to kind of simplify the process for use this so Oliver you know he's studied social credits for very long time of his life he has a PhD and he has spent let's say years gaining information to create this book how most people would approach reading any book they're just gonna open it up and start reading from page one right blah blah blah and that's it right they go page by page and they forget everything the first step when it comes to reading any book is you want to understand who the author is remember the author has spent years if not decades some authors of putting their ideas and thesis is and thoughts down a piece of paper you want to understand the viewpoint from the author because this gives you the framework to understand how the how the author views the subject itself right from the last video talk about how to think critically we talk about biases we talk about context well biases plays a role in this context plays a role this so the first thing I like to do is I like to go in the back and literally find out who Oliver is in this case I met Oliver and talked to him for one three hours so I know him quite well which gives me a great primer and plea preliminary information on how I'm gonna approach this book right so the first thing you want to do is like you want to google the author you can start in the back over here you want to google the author you want to understand who this author is like why has the author spent his or her time on organizing this book and putting down their thoughts that's the first thing you want to do really understand the author of psychology the second thing you want to do is you want to go through the table of contents so in this case so why you want to pull out the table of contents the table of contents gives you the overview of how the author and the publishers organize their thinking within the book you know in this case we got you know part one part two part three bibliography index within each section you have subsections right so this gives you the general idea of how he or she has organized their thinking to approach this book and it's really important this gives you a good kind of primer and understanding of of the thesis of the book right so already you are at a head start already right before you even read one word before you dive into book you understand who the author is you understand their previous work you understand you know their experience now you understand how they've laid out the book in front of you okay now the table contents the next thing what you want to do is very simple process is let's say something catches you on table contents like in my case over here would be like would be part three you know they talk about current financial policies must be replaced by correct financial policies so page 345 I would go to page 345 and I would quickly skim areas right I just skim I look at areas and I skim and basically the whole process is you skim you go to areas the fancy or I and you skim and basically what you're doing is your data gathering your gathering tidbits and for information from the book because how most people approach the book or how most people approach any learning process as we look at everything from a linear aspect or we think the human mind works from ABCD but the human mind is exponential we don't just learn linear from A to B we may go from A to Z Z to G G to P P to E we're all over the place right we connect the dots and it's really seldom that you're gonna read in a linear fashion that you're gonna absorb information remember most of the things within a book you're not gonna remember you want key takeaways from the book so after I've gone through the process of skimming around I put down the book and I actually then take out a piece of paper and what I take out is what do I want to gain from this book because most people they think they have to remember everything for that's not the case the whole point of reading the whole point of having experienced a book is to make you think better it's to put different ideas in your mind so those ideas can percolate you know there's a saying an intelligent man is able to have two different opposing viewpoints in his mind and able to hold those thoughts as opposed to just having one thought two thoughts together and you've got to let that percolate and mature and let those thoughts grow together so once you've done your scan I take out a piece of paper I take my pen and I write what I want to gain from this book in this case I'm not too familiar with social credits I've had a great primer by having Oliver on the show I did some background who he is I went through the book I scanned everything I took some notes down and basically what I want to do now with my 8 by 11 piece of paper is what do I want to gain from this book number one is I want to know the general principles of a social credit I might not care about the history the history doesn't help me with the future of the knowledge a game from social credits uh so basically it's like I want to know the general principles and this is how Elon Musk Peter Teals they look at the fundamental principles of anything new they want to learn so what are the principles of social credits that's number one of my checklist out of everything or out of all the time I spend on this book the only thing that I fucking care about is what is the fundamental principles of social credits and based on that kind of north star is like honestly maybe only 20 pages matter for me then out of the whole book because I'm not going to become an expert after reading the book I just want to know the fundamental principles so I make a checklist of maximum three to five points right so number one point for me for this would be what are the fundamental principles of social credits once you have your checklist of three to five points what you want to do is you want to locate sections in the book going back to the table contents right so I go back to the table contents and I see where my checklist may associate with the table contents right so if I'm looking at different parts there's three parts and there's about five sections in each single part and I'm going to go to that section I'm going to skim around I'm going to look at paragraphs I'm going to highlight words or highlight pages and bunnyfold ears and I'm just going to spend maybe half an hour skimming that once I've skimmed that and then I'm going to go back to the book another day and I'm going to go back to the sections with another piece of paper and then I'm going to spend my time on the areas that I skim down to write down my notes I want to see what you know I'm just going to for the sake of this video just pay attention to the only thing that I care about is the principles of social credits so I'm going to write down my thesis what do I think social credits are what are the fundamental principles of social credits I'm going to write that down and create a one page paper of my summary of the principles of social credits because at the end of the day out of 500 pages what am I going to really gain out of 500 pages I'm not going to remember 99 percent of the things right if I just gained the principle of what social credits are this book is what it's it's it's worth its weight in gold right and so that's how kind of more and more Adler digs into things he goes into crazy stuff like meta learning like you have for example over here you have inspectional learning which is systemic skimming which I just mentioned right then you have analytical reading right then it's it's pretty big book right so he has different types of reading but generally speaking if I want to summarize the process of reading it's not reading it's an experience right you're going at it as a general you want to go with a game plan what is your strategy what insights do you want to gain because remember it's about action plan too most people read for the sake of reading without doing anything with that knowledge this system forces you to use critical thinking this system forces you to actually acknowledge the information that you gain from a book and write down your own summaries and hypothesis of the information that you gain and that's how you should approach everything in life don't do things for the sake of doing things people tell you read for the sake of reading why how many how many fucking books have you read that you don't remember shit or how many podcasts have you listened they don't remember shit how many things have you done in your life for the sake of doing those things and you don't fucking remember shit I tell you what I've been there a hundred times happens all the time and it's a waste of time literally it's a waste of time and at the end of the day time is the most important resource we have on this fucking planet or in the universe and so that's that's it in the nutshell man it's like don't approach reading just for the sake of reading I really recommend you read Mortimer Adler's book or go check out this quick Coles note like I said I'm gonna leave a link below this video but if you have any comments for me about this like I love to know your reading processes I like to know what kind of experiences you have with different forms of reading and leave a comment make sure to subscribe to this video and I'll talk to you guys soon peace


There are always two people in every picture, the photographer, the viewer and slander. Creative Earth Institute of Photography


And I will begin making a brief comment. We've been talking about implementation in terms of pharmacogenomics. I just want to mention that for the last couple of years, the NIH Clinical Center has been offering HLA genotyping when abacavir, carbamazepine, anaphanitoin, and allopyrinol are prescribed. By practitioners in the NIH Clinical Center, my colleague Dr. Barry Goldspiel, who is acting rather deputy director of pharmacy, co-chairs of pharmacogenomics staff committee with me, and Dr. Bill Flego in the Department of Transfusion Medicine is in charge of the actual HLA genotyping implementation. So I just wanted to mention that the Clinical Center is in fact moving in that direction. It is required for abacavir. Otherwise, it is a recommendation and clinicians may decide on an individual patient basis whether or not to order a test at any given time. So with that, again, this is open for general discussion. If I could just make a comment, building a bit on what Steve described, it seems as though, Steve, you have a system that, you know, you've got data collection forms, you've got the software. It shouldn't be all that difficult to transport that to other systems. And so recognizing that CERNR is not the most penetrant nationwide, but still it's one that's fairly standard. So recognizing that that's not your mandate to do, how could we facilitate that happening if that would be a useful thing to happen in other systems? Well, I think we would be perfectly willing to share the forms. I mean, the institution paid for the development of the system through a contract with CERNR. So it's the institutions. I mean, the whole goal was to come up with a system that would allow, if there were to be a cutaneous adverse drug reaction network, I mean, I was only thinking in the context of pediatrics because that's really what our focus is. But if there were ever funding for a network, we wanted to be able to participate in the network by having everything in place. And we would be more than willing to share, you know, whatever we can that would facilitate this occurring at more institutions wherever. So what does it take? I guess it takes probably a medical IT person at a given hospital or system to tweak it or engineering. I don't know. But it was our medical informatics team working with the CERNR employees who walk around with Children's Mercy Hospital ID badges on to make it happen. And that's the extent of my knowledge. Yeah, Mark Williams, Geisinger, unfortunately living in this world. So, you know, these things are conceptually simple, but actually realizing them is incredibly difficult because what usually happens is that these do get built as one-offs. And so they will work in CERNR, but they won't transport necessarily even to other CERNRs. And so I think the strategy would be to take advantage of, I think, what is a little bit of momentum that's gathering as a result of the GM7 meeting and the IOM EHR action collaborative meeting where people are saying we really have to solve this generalizability issue. And we have to use some of the standards that are available that are going to be, all certified EHRs are going to have like a fast healthcare, interoperable resources and those sorts of things. So I think that as we develop a strategy assuming that we want to move this forward that this is, you know, creating a network, creating standardized data entry and those sorts of things, engaging with the informatics community to build the resource such that it would be, at least in theory, interoperable with any certified electronic health record, not integrated within it, but sitting on top of it and able to communicate with it would be a desirable approach. But it's difficult to do that without sort of a national perspective because at the individual level it just doesn't move in a generalized way. So it's very challenging. Although as we've talked about it's a big country and trying I think to do this on a national level, I mean, eventually it could happen and yet you'd like to take advantage of sort of willing partners early on and if there were, you know, at least a handful of hospitals that wanted to partner and then those could grow and those could grow broader and maybe Josh, you wanted to comment on that? Yeah, I was just thinking that, you know, I think it is great to have these interoperable standards and I think we need to continue to shoot for them and, you know, certain, there's been some great demonstration projects like SMART and things like that that could run across which are these apps you can put across different SMART-enabled EHRs. But, you know, optimally to be effective it's got to be integrated within the EHR in a way that sort of fits all the standard workflows people are used to and I do think as long as you know you have standard outputs and think about what those outputs look like then the work you've done in CERNR to design a form that works well and the data elements you want to collect could be properly mapped to something that looks similar and epic. I know we could probably do something similar for instance in our EHR and of course ours is homegrown so we have the ability to sort of do, you know, kind of whatever we want. But I think that those elements, if you standardize the outputs you could cross them across different systems and Mark is completely right that, you know, what works in one CERNR doesn't necessarily work in another CERNR, same with Epic, etc. But it gives you a great head start. It's a lot easier to adapt code that's in one CERNR to another CERNR application so I would think that model is a good step forward. I mean the thing that I would, I completely agree with what Josh has said but I think what you really want to do is you want to have an eye on ultimately where you want to be so that you don't create, you can create something that works with a small number of partners but if you create it in such a way that it only works with that small number of partners and doesn't have a vision for extensibility, that's not a good outcome either. There's a lot of resources that ultimately won't get you where you want to go. So I think starting with a smaller group across multiple EHR systems and demonstrating that it can work will then lower the energy barrier to extend it more broadly if that's the direction that things might go. We had talked yesterday at our break-off and we'll hear about this about whether or not, you know, even something within groups that are participating in the Sentinel program could potentially utilize something like this, which again would have a lot more links behind it if we could pull something like that off. Well, and maybe if I could just make one quick comment in response to that, you know, what we seem to be talking about is not, at least doesn't sound like research and so, you know, for NIH this would be a kind of a tall mountain to climb. On the other hand, you made the very good point that then it provides the infrastructure on which you can do research. So then we'd be interested. So is it possible to sort of leverage this with the variety of patient safety initiatives that are ongoing? And I'll turn to our FDA friends to help us to know who the people are to engage. I would think AHRQ to some degree, our Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, and potentially the CDC. But I don't know. So I don't have Mark or others if you want to comment. So I don't have a very specific answer, but there are a lot of stakeholders in the government who are interested in this. And actually, the Deputy Secretary of Health had recently convened a report, which I sat on as a steering committee member, to look at various aspects around three areas of safety events and how to leverage informatic systems and so on to improve the both the research aspect but also the patient management aspect. And they brought in some IT specialists. AHRQ was one of the groups that was involved all right across the whole government, actually. So we can find out who are the people to go to. But I think that the vision here is to have a system in place, informatic system in place, which you can use both for patient management, so that is early recognition of events and interventions, the research aspect, and then the public health aspect. So those are the three-cornered hat. And if you really do it right over time, you build a network so that it becomes basically for these rare events especially, you know, sort of, you know, encompasses hopefully the whole health care system or as much as possible. The other aspect, and Dr. Hoopnagel is going to talk about this, is that besides the data elements which are important to accumulate, you really do need a clinical brain to look at individual cases. You need this kind of causality analysis, which also has its own methodology so that when patients are being seen at the bedside by the clinicians, they're actually calling what those cases actually are. And there needs to be a system in place where in addition to the data elements, there's a kind of smart narrative which has its own consistency across the system where their narrative synthesizes what the patient actually had and what the expert brain thought, what the diagnosis was. So, and that FDA has a lot of experience with this as an issue is not only to get information bits but to actually get the differential diagnosis, the causality analysis, the phenotype, and so on. So you still need that as part of the collection and documentation. And this will be especially important for genomics where when you start doing whatever your case control study designs are, you won't have confidence that the cases that you accrue to do genomic analyses on that are bona fide cases, that they're not something else because otherwise you won't have a good research plan for it. I just want to say other group to talk to be ONC. Other questions or comments? Well, a comment that one problem is we can come to diffuse and get all ADRs when this meeting is focused on a very serious one that does call for research type of investment. One thing about these forms that we're very involved with is they can be used to calculate causality scores, severity scores to put these things in context including you can include a what we call a completeness score which basically you have enough data to decide are the cases too confusing to consider because when you take all ADRs, a lot of them aren't as clear cut as the ones you get presented at these meetings. They're a mess. The patients, we have patients who are taking 25 drugs. So not much you can do with that. So these types of scores can be built into these systems and you can give an output to the person who puts it in. And it can even include a recommendation like do HLA typing or something like that. But we have been unsuccessful in getting people to actually submit things to us through these types of computerized systems. That does raise a question. What a challenge for us is polypharmacy and on average patients are leaving the hospital with eight different medications. So it really makes the association very complicated and I think there's some areas here for research and how to approach that problem. So maybe to change the topic a bit, Cynthia, you commented or when you presented that educating your clinicians was a key part of the effectiveness of your initiative and that the way you did that was through a letter to them, pre and post. And I just can't imagine that our physicians would pay attention to a single letter. So there was probably more than that. Yes, that's right. I mean it was really that the director of medical services said this is now standard of care. That's what made the difference. In 2009 we came out with a newsletter which summarized what was going on in the research, validating reporting the 1502 and there was no change at all in the carbamazepine SJS. So it was really convincing at the ministry of health level and telling people this is now your basically like your clinical practice guideline. And I think we've been feeling more and more that it's really getting these kind of recommendations into clinical practice guidelines that all is really the way to go. No, they don't listen to they don't read drug labels. And in terms of clinical practice guidelines, we're fortunate I think to have the clinical pharmacogenetics implementation consortium or CPIC that is developing guidelines, but they're not a professional society. And so what you'd like is a professional society to say, you know, this is this is our standard of care. And we heard yesterday how one of the challenges with carbamazepine is that there are multiple specialties that prescribe it. So you don't have a single specialty, but is there some way to to unify those or approach at least the major ones? I mean, I think you identified, you know, several that are likely to be prescribing this and then maybe kind of target them that way. Well, yes, one of the HSA staff, you know, presented at the Singapore Epilepsy Society. So like even here today, there's no neurologist right in this meeting. So unless I'm wrong. Yeah, well, you know, and not around the table, we do have have neurology colleagues from our neurology institute. Oh, okay. Yeah. But I think we need to reach out to the disciplines which are actually prescribing the drugs. So that's where they'll influence the decision whether or not to do the test. So Taiwan, one of the one of the initial interventions that helped was actually targeting off label use of carbamazepine is off label use a problem in Singapore, because I guess that also speaks to the issue of the cohesiveness of the providers you'd be speaking to in terms of how to prescribe carbamazepine in the constituency groups that would be involved. Yeah, I'm not familiar enough. I do know it's used by dentists, a fair amount, but you know, for tried, but I think that's in the label, right? Neuralgia. Yeah. So in as far as inappropriate uses came up yesterday with allopurinol, that a lot of the cases we see are just being used for asymptomatic hyperuricemia, and that is not in the indication. But uric acid is standardly measured in these health screens. And then when it's just a little bit bumped, I think people start getting, taking allopurinol. And I think if we eliminated that population, we could get, even without genotype, we could get some impact on the cases. So I've just one comment, Mr. Leader. I liked your presentation a lot. And I think one challenge is definitely getting as many patients into these documentation systems. But another is harmonizing the system so that we're using all the same and guaranteeing the quality of the data. And your comment on rash, which is for dermatologists, really a problem there. And getting that sorted out. And your comment on phenotyping, good phenotyping is really something that I think is important because those like Munir and those who are doing genotyping experiments afterwards, I mean, if they want to clean up the results, they have to be sure that the phenotypes are correct in this system. And that's a challenge. I should just mention that Dr. French has joined us for our second day. We very much appreciate your coming from, from Geneva. So welcome. Maybe two or three random thoughts. In terms of support. Can you step closer? Oh, sorry. In terms of support for these kinds of projects, national registries, and work thereof, remember PCORI, the Patient-Centered Outcome Research Institute. This could be a really interesting project for them. And then thinking about patient-centered kinds of programs. I think yesterday, you know, was mentioned the idea of social media and engaging patients through programs like Patients Like Me and other social media programs. You've already heard how important this is to actual patients and patients' families. And homegrown grassroots registries could be potentially much more powerful than top-down approaches as much as we think we know about this problem. The last comment, a little bit different from the first two, you know, we've heard a lot about over the course of the last day, you know, what's the offending drug? There's polypharmacy and chart reviews that take hours and hours to try to figure all of this out. And then I've also heard, I think Teri mentioned yesterday, that maybe there's this common pathway that we should be thinking much, much more about. And with, again, sequencing of HLA, which, again, is possible and will become better and better, maybe we don't need to worry so much about what the offending agent is. We should be thinking about HLA, essentially, as the main offender, genetically. And as many of you know, there are various kinds of statistical tests, burden tests, aggregate tests that might be very useful in essentially determining overall, what is the role of fine variation in HLA with regard to Steven Johnson's syndrome, really irrespective of the offending agent. Thank you. Mark, you have another? Yes, this is just in response to Teri's questions about guidelines. One clarification and then a comment. The CPIC guidelines presume that you have the genomic information in hand and provide guidelines about what to do with the information. They don't actually provide guidelines about who to test and who not to test. And so that is of some relevance in a situation where we're really talking about should we test or not test. The second thing is, again, in my role as wet blanket over the last two days, I would just once again point out that at least in the United States, there's been a fair amount of scholarship that shows that creating a clinical guideline does not, in fact, rapidly change practice, unfortunately. Some of it is because the guidelines are frequently constructed in such a way that they're not adequately explicit. They would say things like should consider or make, you know, what we refer to in the informatics world as weasel words. And so it really gives clinicians a lot of latitude. But again, the role the role the guidelines can play is that you can then use those to develop clinical decision support that can really work well. And the last point I would just make is one more lever to push, button to push, particularly related to severe adverse drug events is the liability point particularly in the United States, although it sounds like this is an issue in other countries as well. Hospital leaders don't like to hear about the fact that, hey, we're exposing ourselves to liability because we're not doing something to prevent these sorts of things. And so if you're like me, where you use any tool in the toolbox to get what you want, you know, this is just another weapon to add. It's nice here. I just want to add that the professional guideline is really important, I think because when you, I mean, the American Society of Professional, like American Society of Rheumatology, when they update the Gaul Treatment Guidelines to suggest actually be 50 or one testing in Asians or in Thai, it was published. And then you have a PDF downloadable all over the world and our clinicians read it. So when they talk with the head of the rheumatologist in Thailand, they concern about that recommendation because it was published in your guideline. Yes. So, and also the FDA recommendation here is also used in the other part of the world. So if you have a recommendation update in the FDA or the professional guideline, I think it has a worldwide effect. Yeah, but I would say that we struggle this because like for a back of year, it's almost absent. 5701 is almost absent. So it's not cost effective at all in Asia. So just follow, you know, just follow what is coming out of the US is not always the right thing. And we're struggling with allopurinol because of the limited alternative medications. If you are 5801, there really aren't a lot of other choices. So I think we're thinking more along the lines of increased safety monitoring rather than changing the drug. So I am a little bit curious though, in terms of the 5701 that is not at all prevalent in Singapore, do you have a back of your hypersensitivity? Very little, but we also have very little HIV because for anyone who's coming to the country to work, you have to take an HIV test and you don't get your entry pass if you're positive. But we have a back of your testing in Thailand and this is a standard recommendation and probably is because I mean, if there's no guideline recommend to test is before used. So we will conclude then this general discussion and as Terry mentioned earlier, there will be a group picture taken, the group photograph. Thank you very much. So before you go, thank you very much Juan. And before we go to break then we're supposed to gather in that back corner there and the quick more quickly we can do that and effectively the easier we can get on to break. So please, please do that. Thanks.


Hi, my name's Joseph and I'm from United Kingdom. It's around 2010 when they released Heavyweight. I remember seeing the trailer on TV, I mean I was about 13 at the time. That's around the time I started liking films, getting into film and TV and I just remember thinking like this is like a film, it's like a movie and it's obviously a video game and when the trailer come to an end it's exclusively on PlayStation so I couldn't play the game. Days go on, weeks go on, I always found myself thinking about the trailer. I asked to get a PlayStation from my parents and they was like we don't want to buy you a new thing. So I went out to get my first job as a teenager, to save up enough money to buy a PS3 for myself and eventually took about three or four months to save up. Eventually I got it, bought the game as well. It was paper round delivering me papers. It teaches me discipline. I did quit when I got the console. I found this on the floor, it must have fallen out of his pocket. It was just the choices that you could make. I mean there might have been games similar before but for me at the time it was something new. It feels like you have unlimited control over what you have, what you can do. It was just the first time I experienced something like that. After Heavy Rain I slowly found myself playing more games that are story driven and then over the years I've just found again a love for video games and that started with Heavy Rain.