Thank you, and I do want to thank the patient safety movement and really my friend Joe Chiani, especially for your leadership and persistence It has been really inspiring to for us to work with you on so many efforts You've been a real presence in Washington and that has made a difference. So Since we sit in Washington as well our headquarters are there. We have been very happy to see Such fighters along our side as we all are really working on this incredibly important issue So one of the ways that leapfrog has been very active around patient safety Has been as part of this coalition that is developing The concept for a national patient safety board and advocating to have it put in place We've been part of that for I think it's three years it was prior to COVID actually that we started getting involved with it the The Jewish Foundation really was the the lead spark that got this moving and just truly a leader in this area And we'll we'll talk to Robert in a minute about that, but we felt very strongly at leapfrog That on behalf of our purchaser members who are employers who purchase health benefits for their employees founded leapfrog that we had to be more effective and Identifying this problem as a national priority that without that spotlight of a national priority We felt like we just can't get the traction Because every person that you talked to and so in among employers employers are usually lay people They are themselves not in the health care system They learn about these problems through their employees or through their own experiences family members And when you talk to them they'll say yeah, I haven't heard a lot of these complaints or problems or issues But they always think it's just them. They always think oh, yeah, oh my uncle. He had a terrible infection or something happened You can't believe it. It was just terrible. I'm like I can't believe it I hear this from every single person literally that I talked to has a story to tell and That's because and then we lay out the statistics which we've talked about today that are so disturbing one in four people Harmed when they are admitted to a hospital. That is an astronomical figure. That is unacceptable on any level But shocking to people even when they've experienced harm They just don't understand that this is so ubiquitous and so from the perspective of purchasers and for the public at large Who are their employees often? They really want to have the sense They need to have that Momentum behind them that this is important not just to us and our employees that this is important to the whole country That we all have to come together. They need that sense of National unity around this problem And so we got a very excited about the idea of a national patient safety board to bring that spotlight bring that sense of unity and Also to tell every individual who is consider who considers this a problem in their own life That you're not alone that we get it. This is a priority to us. What happened to you is a priority to us So that to us is the number one reason to have this no matter what it says no matter what this board does That's the number one reason just to have it third leading cause of death in the United States ought to have One spotlight one focus federally. So we make sure we're accountable for answers I Will say that just to add one piece to this that's been really interesting to us a couple of things One is technology. I think this board and the concept behind it has taken on some very interesting Questions about how we use technology for patient safety when we implemented EMRs a few years ago There was no consideration of patient safety. It was just like get them out there Let's get them used and the sort of assume that it's all going to come together for patients Which frankly it did not and now we're going back and saying oh geez We should have thought of patient safety when we did this and how it was going to help for that Well, this board needs to make sure that happens with the new advances in technology And I think there's been some very interesting conversations about how this board can be helpful Again the spotlight alone can have a huge galvanizing impact on that question And then we've also thought and believe strongly that Patients need to be at the center and so this board the structure of it Everything about it has been putting patients at the center But also giving patients a voice so they can tell their story. I mean you've heard these incredible stories today and Steve burrows you'll if you go to the movie tonight, which I strongly recommend The story in bleed out is so powerful had such an impact Those stories have impact, but also those stories tell us Give us extraordinary expertise into what the real problem is Because when you hear a patient story, you're understanding the full range of issues that occurred that created a problem for that patient You're seeing them in a unified way in a coordinated way that you don't get from just one perspective of one Provider, let's say who's in the mix they may might see it from one perspective the patient sees the whole perspective And that is why it's so critical that we put patients in the middle and we listen to the stories and we are We are motivated by those stories. That's what makes the real change happen So we're excited about that and then we're we're excited as well about the spotlight when maybe not as excited about the Transparency that's involved in this. We're we're huge advocates of transparency leapfrog Issues letter grades to every hospital in the country. We publicly report by hospital and what those are and it's you know It can be difficult to be that transparent. It's been very effective, but it's true. It's tough. But this board Doesn't need to do that this board isn't isn't trying to do letter grades on every hospital They're not trying to call out performance on every single thing. We have others that can do that including leapfrog CMS has done a great job of that But what this does again is that that spotlight because nothing else can happen Just can't get the momentum without that spotlight So the first priority for us is the spotlight and then we want to see where we can go from there And there are many flowers that need to bloom before we're gonna solve this problem So with that, let me start with with Robert Why don't you tell us you've been really yourself personally a real leader in this Brought together so many folks in Washington and then across the country tell us about Tell us about what's what are the key elements of the board and and where do you think it's going? Is it gonna happen? Yeah, so the National Patients to Safety Board was I designed around one main goal and that's to prevent harm from occurring in health care Organizations and I have to say dr. Burwick's executive order. I described it very well But just to go into some additional detail. I think of the National Patients Safety Board as a public private research and a development Team that is a waking up every morning I focused on three main functions to achieve that goal and the first function being to Aggregate all the available data across the public and our private sector our partners to be able to identify and anticipate Injuring harm in health care at the national level and not in other words having this body be a national of learning system to a prevent harm And in addition to identifying injury and harm Anticipating it is where AI comes into play. That's where a technology can be really helpful in terms of getting the right information to front-line care teams to take a preventative action the First function in terms of being able to Measure and anticipate injury and harm would also be looking at all of the Reports that patient staffs and the providers and families would be able to submit To the National Patients Safety Board to feed into their large Dataset the second function of the National Patients Safety Board is then to Understand the contextual factors the precursors and the causes of injury and harm especially in response to abnormal patterns of injury and harm and reoccurring harm events Then that leads in to the third function that in response to those causes this public private health care safety team Would also be charged with identifying and gaining consensus on what are the solutions that need to be adopted By those partners to actually a prevent that harm from occurring and by solutions We are anticipating that this team would come up with ways in terms of how can Devices technologies be standardized I'm across I'm healthcare Organization so that for example a nurse that doesn't have to learn how different Oxygen tanks and a defibrillator's work in different hospitals. There should be standards across the place and We also think it's very important to use a human factors and engineering lens which helps to understand how do those who actually use these had devices and technologies and they work setting interact with those had devices and Human factors and engineers are excellent at seeing so-called Crash buttons and those crash buttons that all are all too common in health care I need to be removed so that our providers Can focus on patient care versus? Being focused on doing a constant of workarounds to keep patients safe and These new solutions are really important especially in the context of the current workforce crisis We can't expect Hospitals that are facing 30% Vacancy rates with a frustrated burned-out staff to ask their teams to Follow more manual steps. We need a need to rethink in terms of how to reconfigure their Of work environment to enable all our providers and staff to a provide safe and optimal care every time and as Leah he alluded to Patients would be involved in this of both as a member of that public private health care safety team They will also be on the actual actual board of that public private health care safety team and a key function of the board would be to have sole authority in terms of approving the recommendations and reports that would come out of that R&D Team to mitigate any political Interference and and influences and in terms of the in terms of the Apollo let's see prospects We are currently working with a Republican and Democrat sponsor in the house to Introduce an updated version of the end a PSP bill that was introduced last year by Representative Berrigan and then we have also lined up R&D sponsors in the Senate. He would then Introduce a companion bill since they would like the house could do that upfront lift and then I'm a special thanks. I'm also to Joe Keone and the work at PCAST because they have Is opened up the policy window to even consider that an executive order is even possible and so we also have an executive order Strategy that's been Drafted as well and that strategy is very much connected to the work of a PCAST and essentially We will be mobilizing the NPSB a coalition that's now grown to over 80 organizations to put pressure on Creating an executive order to act on those recommendations from the PCAST report And yes, I'm completely agreed that let's also just a copy paste a dr. Burrock's executive order and get it to the president I'm as soon as possible. Thank you So Sue Sheridan you you've been a Articulate advocate for the patient perspective. I'm you're right. I'm sorry Activist for for patients and families and really by telling your own story So with with such courage because it takes a lot of courage actually for patients and families to repeatedly tell these stories that are so Personally Devastating and tell it over and over it's is incredible courage and sacrifice for you to do that And you've made a real difference by doing so so I salute you for that Thank you And you've also had a big big impact on this on the concept really of the the national patient safety board So tell us what what you're thinking. Sure. Yeah, and first of all Thank you, Leah and and when I use the term activist I want to I want to Invite everybody to think about this because there's this lovely concept of positive activism where we use our energy of differences to promote and Motivate and change and so I say what I say activist I say it with you know positivity and I invite everybody else because like I said earlier Advocates talk about it activists do it and so that's why I'm gonna be you know Insistent that we're all called activists in terms of the national patient safety board I personally support it and patients for patient safety us supports the concept and we've been in it from the beginning Really trying to learn about it in and make sense of it in where how does it really impact us? And first I want to support it in terms of the threats that I gave this morning, you know number one threat There's no one in charge. Well, this gives Patient safety a federal home it signals that this is a priority in our country. We need that The second threat that it that addresses is the this assumption that the health care system Convicts itself while we that concerns the patient community because we think we should be up the table and like Robert said Two of the five board directors will be patients or family members who have experienced harm who have a track record in improving safety The other threat that it, you know It basically addresses all the threats that I said this morning now Personally in terms of you know, we had at the coalition kind of a use case that we use my son Cal That probably many of you know that Cal suffered brain damage from his newborn jaundice in 1995 Something that is completely preventable. It was because they use visual assessment Young doctors and nurses didn't know Really the dangers of jaundice because they were young There was early discharge so it was a really perfect storm when Cal fell through all the cracks We actually watched him suffer brain damage in the hospital. He he lived through that experience. He's 28 now Severe cerebral palsy hearing impaired speech impaired mobility impaired Funny he was he was gonna come with me today But he actually has some stand-up comedy that he's performing tonight. So he's not with us But but in thinking about what happened to Cal, you know, this was 1995 It took a long time to get Cal properly diagnosed and when he was diagnosed by a team of Specialists at a University United States. They said Cal was the only case of Curnicorous in the United States Curnicorous brain damage from jaundice, which was really eradicated in the developed developed countries in like the 1970s, so they had not seen a case of of Curnicorous in the United States It really happens more in developing countries Africa Eastern Mediterranean region Southeast Asia So Cal was really Anomaly and then I had the opportunity to testify at HRQ in 2000 and where I met Sir Liam and there was a front page article of Cal on USA Today and I Was inundated by phone cards from parents that day saying they had a baby Just like Cal that that baby had Curnicorous and so the moms, you know, we all got together. We connected the tots No one was collecting this data We were thinking Cal was the only baby in the United States and then then I connected with researchers who had been creating a registry for research Where they had a hundred and twenty five cases of Curnicorous in the last eight years This data was flying under the radar. It was flying under the radar It was packaged and buried in many Confidentiality clauses where people couldn't talk about it But to know that had those cases come forward and had that data been collected like by an NPSB I Think Cal would probably be okay today. Well, he is okay today He probably wouldn't be dealing with his Disabilities today and so it really made me think about our healthcare system and our data and To this day, I don't think Curnicorous gets captured anywhere and I've spoken to other patients here We just don't say we're harmed. There's data and it just kind of goes somewhere But it's not going to where it should be and so, you know, what the moms did of the children with Curnicorous is Given there was no NPSB We created our own NPSB and so what we moms did is we reached out to the health care system the very health care system That harmed our kids. We reached out to the joint commission CMS CDC HRQ ASPE the American Academy of Pediatrics Nursing organizations, I'm forgetting some names But all of those stakeholders came to a workshop that we moms hosted and so we said to this whole system This is you know the whole industry system on newborn safety. We said we've got a problem. We got a here is our data So we provided the data we handed over the hard copies of their birthing records And so they we worked together and then we collectively came up with a solution So over a period of time the joint commission is an issue sentinel event alerts leap frog. Thank you adopted that in your survey CDC announced it as emerging public health issue The AAP eventually called for a universal Billy Rubin test for all babies and that's why our babies were being harmed So we kind of created our own group to do what I think the NPSB would do So when we did this use case, you know it it really seemed that an NPSB could have caught that data early on and Elevated such a rare but harmful and an awful condition that you would have sounded the alarm Absolutely, and you did have a huge impact on that Although my child 10 years after yours was born had a near miss they almost right they did not do the test And so you educated me on the fact that this my child was not the only one here. We go again, right? Everybody thinks we're the only one Sir Liam Donaldson Like to talk with you. You have some actual experience to tell us Because you've implemented something like this in the UK. So what are we doing right? What are we doing wrong any advice and how's it going? Well, the very first Incident report I received was in 1987 I was a young regional medical officer working in the northeast of England and local hospital manager rang me to say Patient had died in his hospital during surgery He'd been given a bladder washout as part of the procedure and the long wrong solution was given and that killed him So actually an error that could still occur today, but the Important thing about the call was this was not a call to alert me to a patient safety incident The term wasn't even used in those days it was because he was Wanted to advise me that there might be bad publicity for the NHS and Just thought I could be aware if I read something in the newspaper This was what it was about and he used a phrase that The Brits in the audience will recognize and not everybody else will He said oh well, don't worry. It'll be tomorrow Tomorrow's yesterday's fish and chip paper and basically in the old days Fish and chips was served in a bundle of newspaper and when you wanted to say well There'll be a bad story in the media, but it'll quickly disappear You said that and I said to him well a patient died. What are we going to do about it? Anyway, I tried over time over the next few years to raise Concerns with Leaders of the National Health Service and they were really it wasn't that they weren't interested. They were bemused They didn't see any connection between the different incidents that were occurring So I reached out beyond the health care system to people like James reason Charles Vincent Rona Flynn who was doing research in the oil fields in in Aberdeen and Ken smart who was the safety officer for British Airways So that when I became chief medical officer 12 years later, I was able to Have enough knowledge to set up a patient safety program in the NHS And one of the first things we did was to set up a national agency the national patient safety agency Eventually it was abolished wrongly in my view. I think because the government was trying to Reduce bureaucracy, but essentially it had a mixed-track record But the most important thing that I would say for you doing something similar setting up a national body is To determine what its positioning should be in relation to the change that's required in patient safety And I've spent a lot of time thinking about Strategic change in Population level to try and make care safer and I haven't changed over those 36 years my basic Diagnosis of the things that need to change, but they prove very very intractable. So for example Mainstreaming patient safety in the culture of the NHS It's still a bit of a silo and it's remained like that for over 30 years Nothing can really No transformative change can occur until it's mainstreamed Learning Relatively weak still we have plenty of data. We have a lot of insights, but we're not we're not picking up and learning from it Solutions the very few evidence-based solutions Having an independent voice Accountability patients and families these are big thematic issues We can deal with some of the technical things and make improvements in patient safety But until we start to become transformative to those things then We won't change at all. So I would just point out to you something that you're all very well aware of patient safety Attempts to improve patient safety are occurring in a complex adaptive system and Much though the politicians won't like this the only way to achieve change in a complex adaptive system is by a learning Approach it isn't by issuing instructions guidelines directions that will have relatively little impact So think very very carefully if you're setting up this agency this new board Don't just list the functions learning data analysis Look to see how in a complex adaptive system It can be an agent for change. What mechanisms will it use what powers will it have? How will it be accountable all of those things? And I think if you do that you've got a chance of a real breakthrough But if you ignore it and just by rote almost list the functions that need to be addressed and allocate them And leave it to get on with it. You won't achieve a great deal Thank you. That is extremely So now we have professor nash Mishkadi who has Really great experience to tell us from other industries, which is something I love about this conference Is that we do have these examples from other industries and really a significant leaders Who have who've really been there and done that who've done what we're trying to do So so what's your what's what is your wisdom and advice for us? Thank you, yeah It's a pleasure to be here when I see it my fine panelists and as an engineer I feel like a bull in a china shop People with medical background doctors and that I'm a simple very very Unsophisticated engineer my research for the last 34 40 years have been in the area of human factors and safety culture of Safety critical systems by safety critical system I mean those systems when something goes wrong It harms the people the passenger the patient or bystanders and the industries that have been working with the safety critical system Has been primarily nuclear power industry. I have been as the Honourable Chris Hart mentioned to Trimal island Chernobyl Fukushima Daini Fukushima Daichi That's a there are other creatures. They don't go there. I've been to The water drilling accidents refinery accidents and others one thing that I learned which is very related to this discussion here of National Patient Safety Board is as was mentioned earlier many times Dr. Durkin mentioned that dr. Ramsey mentioned that dr. Berwick mentioned that is the issue of learning and information sharing. I think one of the best and biggest Contribution of national transportation safety board that as you may well know Investigates accident in five modes of transportation and it's Independent federal safety investigative agency milling is independent from DOT it investigate Aviation accident maritime accident railroad accident surface accident and number five is the most illusive one pipeline and They issue reports independent report and then they have something which is called the most wanted list That they put the lessons from this accident investigation in a cumulative way and they carry that every year This is one of the best way of information sharing. I have been on both sides of that I use some of NTSP reports like the Vamata Accident at Fort Totten In my courses at USC and there is a similar agency called Chemical safety and hazard investigation board. That's again another independent federal Safety investigation agency that they investigate accidents and the issue report interdisciplinary investigation of refinery petrochemical accident for with CSP I work as their Advisor or they call that experts in human factors and safety culture by the way, it was a music to my ear Robert to see national patient safety board that you explicitly mentioned human factors several times kudos to you and kudos to honorable Chris Hart also for mentioning that Human factors I think is one of the most important contributing factors to many accidents as I have looked at this issue of the Design induced error if we want to stop error. We need to look at this design stage and There is another independent safety agency which is called defense nuclear facility safety board that they are Independent from Department of Energy, but they have jurisdiction over the nuclear weapon laboratory these three independent Federal agency I think they have been role models for us They issue report they try to as Mr. Hart mentioned to help us to learn from error and near misses To disseminate data and help the industry learn for example I work with US chemical safety board at the accident investigation of the BP refinery and explosion of 2005 in Texas City That report which is considered to be a similar report has been used by other Refineries in order to learn lesson I've been told that by my students that they work at the Exxon refinery that they use that report I've been told that by another recently that work at Another refinery in in the state of Washington. I think this is the beauty of this National patient safety board is To disseminate information. I am sitting on the board of the Joint Commission and I've been pushing our Colleagues on the board of and at the Joint Commission also to join this movement I have been pushing for you and then unpaid promoter of you getting the human factors and ergonomic society To support you. I think this is a must-need have now. I have to tell you something dr. Domberwick your talk this morning Changed the last part of my comments because of your talk and because of mr. Joe Kiani stock I went up and I picked up this piece that I had in my briefcase This is a New York Times letter to editor section from 1990 33 years ago January 1990 there is a very nice letter by a very distinguished gentleman who was US senator from Deliver Joseph Biden Pushing for creating an independent nuclear safety board Then senator Biden did not believe that a regulatory agency Which is the US nuclear regulatory commission can do a good job on doing? Accident an incident investigation of nuclear power industry. That's why he wrote this letter to the editor of New York Times on December 12 1989 It got published two weeks later Senator Biden at that time was pushing for creation of indeterminate safety board. He came up with a Legislation a bill which is based on my memory. He introduced that bill in 1986 1987 1988 and Then because he didn't pass he reintroduced that in 1989 1991 1994 and what finally gave up This poor soul yours truly had a letter to editor in the same issue, which is published side by side This is my claim to fame. We basically said the same thing. We need this independent nuclear safety board in that case Dr. Berwick, Mr. Keane You have an advocate here from 34 years ago in the White House. He doesn't relent He will push for it and the only thing that we need to do is to get him reelected to finish off the job I appreciate that comment, but I have to say patient safety is a Nonpartisan issue this is one And I'm unregistered water Not committed why I'm registered, but I'm not partisan. Yeah Sorry, okay Our final panelist I want to hear from is Abby Tophic You have very interesting perspective in addition to a tragic story in your own life that you can may choose to speak about but And and your courage just like Sue's courage in really speaking and stepping forward to tell that story in addition You're a provider and that has that experience is a new lens for you in your own work as a provider I think you have some very interesting insights for us as we think about this board on how How we might bring the health care system to see their patients through this new lens as well. So Tell us. What do you think Abby? Thank you? I would like to first Express my gratitude to Joe and Sarah and the patient safety movement foundation for giving me the privilege to be here When I chose to be part of this movement Was mostly because I just didn't want my brother's loss to just be that just a loss or a loss statistic I wanted to be a stepping stone towards creating a change and preventing others from going through the same pain and I Truly believe that errors should be looked at as an opportunity to create change But a change that it's a constructive change that is Implemented and enforced by an entity that believes in the truth in the transparency and the accountability and teamwork otherwise, we're just all individuals or entities or victims and organizations that are isolated and scattered and Just cries in a chaos and we're only going to be facing a history of repeat and repeat of history I think Sue so brilliantly explained of the importance of having such an entity in the last panel and today but as a healthcare provider, I also truly believe that Empowering patients is so important in this movement Because I believe that patient safety is a partnership It's a partnership between all of us who provide the care and all of us who will receive the care one way or another either currently or in the future and I've seen it time and again in my patients who are so lost because they don't know anything About what safety is all about we all go to school and get educated about how to become successful But we never go to a school or there's no entity teaching us how to be educated and how to be safe and it's devastating when I hear my patients who are Only realizing what they didn't know after they became victims And I think such an entity can also play a very important role in Empowering everyone in the community about how to be a safe patient how to make the right decisions how to pick which Hospital they want to have a procedure with based upon whether or not these are safe hospitals They these are accountable hospitals people Who are patients are you know only talk about? The issues that happen to them were mistakes only after the fact and I think it's very important to create Proactive people proactive patients who believe in prevention as well Thank you So we only have three minutes left, but I have very much been grateful for the wisdom from this panel This has been extraordinary So I'm going to ask one question now for all of you to think about and answer which is We are talking about the National Patient Safety Board, but we want to build a sailboat What's the wind what is going to move it? How is it? What's going to give it momentum going forward? Because I think it's very important to recognize with patient safety Oh, we know a lot about how to how to fix the problem. We just don't do it enough What what galvanizes change what makes that difference? And I'm gonna I'll start with an answer to give you a chance to think about it, which is for me it is It's that spotlight and go back to that It's really shining a light on the issue on a national level and the spotlight is galvanizing It changes the way we think about the importance of our own work on a day-to-day basis as providers Or as patients as in whatever role we play in the health care system, and we all have a role every one of us It reminds us that that there's a there's a mission behind it. There's a reason and and it's important So that's my feeling about that's the wind that's going to make this sailboat across the ocean Can I start? Yes, you may sir Liam one of my other Pro bono roles with who is I chair the polio eradication board I would say the way we would galvanize Patient safety is to show That we can eradicate something big If we could show that we could eradicate sepsis not just lower its incident, but completely eradicate it We'd galvanize such Unified commitment that I think it would show that it's worth making a commitment to patient safety in many other areas as well Thank you. We need wins. That's a that's a great one Sue Okay, you know what my answer is but um I think and and Liam I'm going to quote the the global patient safety action plan that says Perhaps the most powerful tool in patient safety is patient family engagement and I want to add to that I want to add that, you know, we've kind of talked about The force and the wind in the in the sails of our health care system Really the power of the patients and families civil society patient groups disease based groups population based groups That really have no aggregate voice right now And that's what patients for patient safety us is trying to do and that you know This really needs because we are the ones that experience the bad outcomes And we need to get together and find the avenues and work with our government And and fortunately our government is opening doors to patients and patient groups now To really move this to push the to be the force to push this into reality That's a great answer Abby involve the patients involve the future victims involve basically everyone, you know We'll I mean dr. Ramsey constantly reminds us that we're all going to be patients one day. So That means everybody. It means the society. It means remembering that You know without the society you can't really you know participation of the society you can't really create any change Robert and I think One advocacy there's a power in the numbers You can get involved and join the coalition by going to ww.npsp.org And we also have a platform to write a letter to your Representative to ask them to reintroduce the n PSP bill And also as soon as you see the p-cast the patient safety recommendations likely in august A rake to the president tell your story as a provider researcher patient and say you want the president to Do an executive order to accept to accept the p-cast a patient safety recommendations. So then secondly The i'm health care industry. I'm of course has influence as well And I think that there's a chance that they will get involved in this advocacy as well because of the workforce crisis They need new solutions to Design a work environment to allow all A page to allow all staff and providers to achieve safe optimal care. And I think That is helping to elevate the urgency around a patient safety Absolutely I think the stars are lined up for patient safety President by them being in the vitas With his advocacy Activism and interest in patient safety. Mr. Joe Keane being in p-cast and p-cast having Dr. Prono was seen that they are advocating for patient safety And also I see the joint commission under the leadership of the Dr. John Perlin. They are very interested in that ihi. Thanks to the creation of uh, Dr. Bear Victor interested. I think the stars are lined up and people the patients People like me who are a researcher. We are fed up Of seeing all of these preventable medical errors I think we have a very special unique windoff opportunity Between now and next four years being honest with you I think if mr. Biden doesn't do that no other president will have the guts to do that Well, that is a powerful way to conclude our panel, but


know is that enough to one you know a big match you don't miss managed to have 12 points i i think really there were six points up at one stage in the game and a low-scoring game like that it's it's it's massive um uh donnan listen karen godway come off the bench and did the damage against dublin and almost worked perfectly a game i mean she had a bright and cold chance saved in the in the 53rd minute that would have put us two up again i think that was was the one in and losing of it and fine margins in these games and miss of course you who come through playing that counter attacking system last year very good it is what donnie go all do as well so there's a few gold chances in the game that another day could have went down and changed it don't listen tough tough one from there's a lot of new talent coming through but then there's a lot of girls have been there a long time now so the questions were asked the last couple of years you know about people and they all came back and they all got stuck in again to give it a big push so it's just a bit of a pity they come up bad bit short but some some effort from them the one that's been a huge season from and listen small margins again you're back at headquarters i mean it'd be phenomenal for them to make a final but it didn't happen well mo donnell joining you obviously on the deal debate tonight to discuss that game and discuss the situation of the team and i'm sure that'll be an interesting and a lengthy one jerry mcloughlin a veteran correspondent well known on the show and elsewhere we'll be speaking about the hurling obviously and about the two senior semi-finals in in donnie goll as well yeah certainly and the unions dethroned donnell in the in the hurling senior hurling bird coming back and listen didn't just won the match we want to come to me you know 216 to 14 points so satanta as we thought had too much for bon crana so this time last year you know satanta were going in as as huge favourites i think there were you know unions were six to one the one that match so it was a it was a massive season for them but you know we've been waiting for the the bird comeback you know the the original and the record holders in donnie goll of course so that set up for a spicy final now satanta satanta and bird and as i say bird on the comeback like they've been down compared to where they have been this last number of seasons so certainly set up for an interesting final season and that traditionally would have been sort of the the two hurling powerhouses in donnie goll unions obviously in recent years have really come to the fore but i mean it would have been part satanta and there was years when it was every year the final was bird satanta bird satanta bird satanta for years at a stretch it's certainly one and also you're looking ahead to goll of a carry and what that's going to be like ah yeah frank wrote some in those sports on as well and just get his views on the on the season so far and some of the things we've talked about there doing about tactics and where is the game going and how do we perceive you know winning versus versus tactics and you know you'll see all the time it's it's all about winning and you know i think the game the game's a lot bigger than that there and we've got to be careful that you know we're not turning people off from it you know at the end of the game the game has many different components they've done and if you have a a power match happening and the fans start to turn away from it and people start to turn off from tv then the game drops down and that's that's something i think be interesting to get frank's views on and look ahead of course to the to the big finals only hope it lives up to the to the hurling one as you say well if it does i mean it'll be it'll be some spectacular i just i didn't actually hear the full debate last week because i was i was working inside did you and greg talk about the announcement by pats belan that he's hanging up his microphone and walking off into the sunset no what what what do you make of that is is it going to be a loss or is it good riddance listen i suppose entertainment value though and we've looked at it now there's been savage criticism about Sunday gaming about analysis shows particularly the tv shows you know that they've been bland and you seen from brawley said that or he was starting to tell advise him on what to say kind of thing you know and giving them kind of pointers no and that's one of the reasons then there was a fallout i would say among other fallouts with brawley but spalan listen he's there so long miss he has the medals he's entertaining i think more than anything so guys i got a big miss if you look at a lot of guys coming through now don't you know some of them aren't bad analysts but you're probably missing that wee bit of crack and fun and particularly when you think of spalan and brawley and some of the arguments and rousey would have had but he always spoke his mind yeah and i think that type of tv is important you know when you see a lot of fans that maybe aren't deep in the analysis they love seeing guys that get on and i think it's probably getting that balance between a bit of entertainment that but he certainly must while nice man i've met him a few times and sometimes you get taken aback by how how genuine and nice guys are sometimes you might meet them and there's an odd guy out there you know you talk very quickly or move on but see a guy like spalan there he always seemed to take time to talk and that's something that i would have to notice from a real genuine nice guy and of course in this part of the world spalan will always be associated with two words and you know what those two words are i'm not even gonna learn that one i suspect most people do the initials are pf brendan thanks very much for speaking to us this morning that's brendan oh by the way we'd better promote it actually the dl to be yes it's on tonight after the news at seven just have a seven year podcast and podcast of the hundred yeah we have to get that in as well i think everyone knows that at this time have a great day no one likes an empty-handed guest that's why at Lidl we've a new range of chilled cakes and desserts from just two ninety nine grabbed a licious fresh cheesecakes custard slices eclers apple turnovers an indulgent black forest gatter with chocolatey flakes or gorgeous Belgian chocolate ganache cake best guest ever Lidl more for you hi it's on i can't answer the phone right now i'm currently enjoying the advanced comfort seats and suspension with progressive hydraulic cushions in my new citron c5 aircross suv i'm really enjoying the drive so please don't leave a message with citrons advanced comfort technology you may end up traveling further than you planned experience citron comfort a five-year warranty and flexible payment options across the range for more see citron dot ie the new citron c5 aircross is now available at your local dealer highland motors mountaintop letterkenny at aib we know how difficult finding the right home can be the searching bidding and time that lives behind every sail agreed sign but when you finally do find the right home aib can make the mortgage part easier with our online mortgage tool you can manage your application online find out more at aib.ie aib we back belief learning criteria terms and conditions apply aladarish banks plc is an authorized agent and servicer of aib mortgage bank uc in relation to the origination and servicing of mortgage loans and mortgages aladarish banks plc and aib mortgage bank uc are regulated by the central bank of Ireland if you can join me friend of any this monday for the deal debate it's a huge weekend for senior ladies footballers as they take on me in the all-earned semi-final at crowbar we'll have interviews and analysis from the big match joining me in the show veteran j corresponded jerry mcgallon to discuss all-earned hurling final and the two club semi-finals taken place in dunigawal this weekend also in the show frank roach of the end of sport to discuss all-earned football series so far and the final to come that's the deal debate podcast on highlandradio.com and just have a severe news this monday on highland radio the deal debate with sister sarah's ladder canny serving food you'll love till 9 p.m. daily in sarah's kitchen and there's free admission entertainment every weekend this is the 9 to noon show on highland radio donal cavern with you on till 12 noon which is what about give or take 39 minutes away so let's see how much we can get in between now and then going to give you some good news you remember earlier on we had a caller had let us know that they had picked up a wrong case in oma when they were taking the bus and they had brought the case to letter kenny and they were hoping that they could get their case back and there were two identical cases on the bus and they picked up the wrong one well i can tell you that it's worked out and the case was brought to letter kenny this morning met a family member at the bus station who'd heard the notice the two cases have been swapped around and everyone is happy and delighted that we were able to help facilitate that in happening we spoke before the break to freddie who has had some bad experiences at letter kenny university hospital with regards to his daughter's particularly in the emergency department and he outlined some concerns and and some issues now another caller has been on to say i want to mention the great experience i had in a&e i was in the trauma clinic because i'd fractured my wrist from reception to the hallway through it was an excellent experience i often hear complaints about the emergency department i just want to give praise where it's due and we were speaking earlier about vessels and safety measures and so on and caller says all registered irish fishing boats of all sizes are required by law to have all safety measures training and equipment in place however it seems any town can jump on to a speedboat or jet ski a lot of them show no respect for local conditions so says a caller and maybe education is the key because we heard from councillor michael mclafferty that there were a number of young lads on on jet skis at dunfany and they were using them in a in a way that could have been considered dangerous the lifeguards approached them as soon as they did they said no problem grand and they went out and it was resolved with a quiet word and and that's always what you want to see happen with regards to traffic caller says dunigold county council might as well shut letter kenny down any further disruption to traffic would make an already crazy scenario just impossible so says a caller now are you in a position where you are at home with young children and they are starting to do your head in a bit now on days like today hopefully you can go out and you can go to the beach and you can do a lot with them but it's not always like today and you don't always have the opportunity to so do tina mcdade is a junior infants teacher and works on instagram under the lovely hashtag teacher of dote do you call them hashtags on instagram or do they have different names yeah i i don't know myself to be honest i i i don't know um we would have called them handles when we were on cb we'll go with that we'll go with handle yeah we just got a teacher of dote's lovely lovely name tina good morning good morning how are you i'm very well indeed tina you're a junior infants teacher but uh and you use your instagram channel to give some advice to parents and to others on what what to do with with younger kids because they're at that lovely are we there yet stage where sometimes they can be manic and it appears they woke up and had five espressos first thing and they're just bouncing correct correct yeah well i also have two children myself so i kind of see it from both perspectives and thank you very much for inviting me on to talk yeah um so i'll just share with you first of all some things that i have learned recently absolutely go for it as a parent um just you do you just do what works for you and for your unit and don't don't worry about what's um going on um elsewhere just you know focus on your family unit and the needs of your own family and of your own children um if you're going on days out set a budget doesn't have to be um flamboyant or anyway um exaggerated um everything in moderation there's a lot of talk now about digital devices um the child prince scheme 2001 um coined the phrase digital natives um so now those digital natives are parents so technology is here so it's how we work with it and in moderation um listen to your children is the number one thing that i will say as adults we tend to talk 80 percent of the time and listen 20 percent of the time and when you're dealing with children it's very important that we listen to them 80 percent of the time because they will tell you what they want to do and it's also important to remember um a lot of the time i hear well in my day children wear x y and z let me tell you now i have no idea what it is like to be a six-year-old in 2022 and we're going to stretch this and say i was a child of the 90s just about okay but um i was six in the 90s i know what it was like to be six years old in 1990 i have no idea what it's like for my six-year-old daughter to be a six-year-old right now you're shaped by your family your society your ethnicity so many things so let your child be a full complete six-year-old in themselves and do exactly what they need to do you're not preparing them for first class second class you need to deal with the child in front of you right now and what they what they are doing right now and meet their needs and every child is complete childhood is over in a flash and you'll just do this too it's for adults it can be exhausting it's quick and it's precious but for the child it's their time to be curious truth-seeking innocent physical busy chatty they are protected by the 1989 UN rights of the child they're the right to play they're right to have an opinion and they're right to be an adjunct child so children are curious about the world and the best way that they learn is through play and as adults what we can do is we can create opportunities for them to play but it's very important that we ensure that that play is child-led that it's what they want to do we cannot put our adult opinions on to them so i can't well i mean my that boat's now sailed minor 20 29 um what i mean you know i i i i can't go well when i was six back in 1970 this is what we did so we'll do we'll just do it now and it'll be the same because it won't it won't absolutely won't you know so you're dealing with different things you're dealing with apples and oranges so what can you do so as caregivers we can create play opportunities we can provide the resources the children need we can give them or time because children are social beings they need us they need social interactions that is how children learn to communicate that's how they learn social skills and you can also give them safe space to play you can also dress them appropriately children love to jump in puddles so don't put on their best clothes or their best runners okay if you're going to play if it's going to be messy prepare them you know and you know that's what washing machines are for you know it's it's it's okay to be to be messy so um there's this thing Lev Bogotsky talks about it's called scaffolding where we can bring children to the next level of their learning by model and play okay but we can't hijack it it's their play so what can we do so there's creative play so in the house you're in the house and it is absolutely lush in the rain what can you do um so you can recreate an entire town in your house in your kitchen you can have the supermarket you can have a cafe at your kitchen table a cinema in your sitting room um if you have a dressing table it can become the hairdressers I would suggest maybe hiding the scissors if you have played those scissors you just want you know in there do that within reason set boundaries you know um if you've ever climbed and shared that become the dentists studies from Yale have found that children who um children who didn't have opportunities for creative play for dramatic play they would display more challenging behaviors so children need this need those opportunities set boundaries together explain the rules that are needed to keep everyone safe and something that I find helps and I've learned recently is rather than saying let's do this I might say right I wonder how this would work or I wonder what would happen you know let them come up with themselves because they are so smart you know and it's up to us we're not pouring information into them we're we're taking the information out of them and then make sense of their world and their environment so um you've explored the house your house has become a full-time town and you've moved on from that you could um a lot of these things are gonna sound like the horrors of lockdown of all the things that we did back then but you know they were all good things um you know I encourage your children to bake with you make toast butter toast simple things like that um sit down and have a meal set the table have a fancy afternoon tea if you can like take out your fancy plates with them um and then most important thing is go outside yes it may be raining but do they have a coat do they have wellies you know is it that cold could they go out and jump in puddles on their bare feet is it safe you know you you use your adult eyes to um interpret the situation and you know think what's what's best for the child children need two to three hours per day there's an initiative one thousand hours a year for outside we all need it even 10 minutes at a time whatever you can build up to um shall I pause or do you want to they are resilient and sometimes we feel the need to protect when actually you know and it goes down and you know maybe it's typified and we've all heard the discussion about uh the five second rule and something has fallen on the floor and we're now being told that one of the problems children have is in the past because they crawled around in the mud for half the day um now and they built up they built up immunity to everything these days we can be so sanitized and we can be so clean and we can be so forensic about being that that they'll now pick up everything and anything because they haven't allowed themselves become immune to anything I mean you know and I'm going to say the phrase I mean in my day I would I would go out at you know after lunch and I went home when my mother shout stood at the back to her and rose and then that's all you ever heard in in our estate growing up in wardford was just our mother's calling us you know there was one there was one woman down the road from cork and she would call her daughter it's the most wonderful thing to go Louis fantastic and and that that that's what we did we just went out and we ran around the place went into the woods and built camps and we did it all day yeah and you know our parents never really went through that sort of stuff with us really because quite frankly we were just outside messing about and we did it all the time so our our parents perhaps now too much the other side and too protective I think it was different times I mean like I know when I grew up my mother was at home so when we were up the backfields hiding from the farmer you know building trees and falling out of trees we like my mother was there so we only had to run back down the fields my mother was there a lot of parents are working nowadays so it's they don't have that luxury of being able to say right go on ahead I don't want your tummy rumbles come home it's not like that anymore the world's a very different place I will say though we were at a training course one time for PE and we were asked you know and I'll ask you the same if you walked into the town park now and you saw a bunch of children climb in trees how would you react um probably remember I used to do that okay okay good good good because the initial feeling in the room was you would say get down out of there but that's the teacher and also you ask a classroom a teacher is that that's what they're going to respond but it's like it's it's called risky play and it's very important we know the difference between risk and hazard some things are risks some things are hazards so as adults it's up to us to judge okay is this risky play a child playing on a log that could be slippy you know they're gonna fall they may have a mild injury but a child playing with a pair of scissors or child playing with that that's a hazard so it's understanding the differences and you know giving them giving them enough space and freedom to be curious and to learn how to fall because when a child learns how to fall a child learns how to get back up again and that is an adult who learns how to get back up on their feet whenever life throws lemons at them but we're also we're also told that i mean children particularly children of sort of four five six i mean they're a lot more supple and i mean you know a fall off a log for a child of six is going to be very very different in terms of consequence to say a fall off a log for a man of 58 you know so it's going to be a very different thing because the body's too very and sometimes what we do i think as adults is we sort of transpose ourselves onto the child and think if the child falls it'll be the same as if i fell and and the truth is no it won't no it won't they'll bounce straight back up and like i'm guilty about myself like sometimes i'll react and say oh no are you okay and then they'll see my reaction they'll feed off my reaction and they'll they'll start to cry whereas if you don't if you kind of ignore it if you kind of discreetly check okay no broken bones they're okay so the child will get back up again because the last thing the child wants to do hopefully is to go back it go back inside and not be allowed to play for the rest of the day because children love to play so you know it's it's important that you know that they're they're allowed that freedom to bounce back up again but maybe you don't have outdoor space maybe you're working all day maybe maybe you don't have those luxuries so what can you do in those instances so um one very important thing and i spoke to my friend fina she owns the arty fox um about art and being creative and our children aren't being aren't aren't being given the opportunity to be as creative as we used to be shall i say there are opportunities out there but um i think time is a commodity a lot of us don't have so what ways can you build in time for art in your in your everyday so you may you may maybe work until six o'clock you may have a very narrow window you may be at home all day it could be granny that has the children it could be an aunt could be a babysitter whatever so painting children love painting drawing um my children have old copy books and old diaries a lot of them from 2020 surprisingly um unsurprisingly um and they just draw they just they they're given like boxes of broken crayons and they love scented markers and scented pens they love the sensory experience of it all but they love the freedom just to draw i learned from i learned a lot about play from the early years teachers and can i just give a huge shout out to all the early years teachers in this country because the job that they are doing is phenomenal they get children they really do and they don't get half enough praise they really are an incredible cohort of teachers um so they have taught me a lot what i know about play um so yeah it's about teaching children it's okay to play with broken crayons draw use your imagination chalk right now it's lovely to drive through the estates and see all the chalk on the driveway it's it's beautiful if your child needs a wee nudge or if um your your child is very um device um focused you can transition them away from it slowly there's a thing called art hub for kids which does directed drawings it's fabulous um he does step by step drawings so um child when he's paper and a pencil or marker and it's you can draw literally anything teaches them how to draw you can do shadow drawn and that beautiful weather and i just put toys up against some paper and draw around the shadow draw around anything that they see construction if you want your child to learn to build things your um recycling bin and a bit of masking tape and if you want to be a bit extra you can throw in some googly eyes children love googly eyes but your recycling bin your your loo rolls your cereal boxes your egg cartons children can make incredible things from there you might remember the ad years ago with the child with the very liquid oh yeah make a spaceship right exactly yeah and and the best part of that was it was the time spent with his i think it might have been his father it was a it was a meal figure um it was the time spent with another adult with it with an adult that was important there too and important too that when the child is drawing put it up on the fridge with the fridge magnet and display it and if auntie or neighbour or friend comes in show to them in their presence and you know make make sure that they know their work is valued exactly and call them an artist wow you are an artist you know so give give them that name and they'll say yeah i'm an artist and you know there's nothing that they can't do um so yeah so there's lots of different activities you may have like fabric you might want to give spider-man or lottie doll your lottie doll a make over with some spare fabric you have lying around clay you can use salt dough there's loads of recipes online and actually there's a quarter has and it's funny you mentioned that because the color has actually said what's your preferred play dough recipe my daughter wants to play play dough itself is is so expensive i mean can i make it myself you can of course make it yourself and there are there are so many recipes online to suit you and your style you can add um you can make it in your slow cooker it's great and it'll stay for the last few months in the fridge um i'll give you two tips there are so many recipes it's flour and salt and water i'll give you two tips if you're adding food color or paint add that to the water first before you add it to the dry ingredients because it will um it'll stain your hands and the other one is glycerin hope i'm saying that right glycerin makes it smooth and shiny and it makes it really nice and you can also add essential oils or herbal tea for um for the sensory element of it um but yeah just get stuck in and if you find a recipe that works for you um stick with that if not change it up um i would say invest if you're going to get involved messy play and if messy play terrifies you get a plastic tablecloth and put it on the table or at your local building suppliers or your educational suppliers you can get what's called a top tray it's a large black tray that they use for mix and cement get one of those i think they're about 20 euro and it can be hosed down afterwards you can have it inside or outside and they can be as messy as you want it gives the children defined boundaries so that you know they're not all through your house if that's if that's a concern for you you did mention cooking earlier in a caller is asking i've seen people have their children cook with them are there best dishes to help to have them help with now my my kids the caller says are seven and nine i've started off with sandwiches and smoothies should i be moving on to more challenging things like bolognese for instance i i certainly don't see why they shouldn't be doing bolognese yeah ask them ask your children what they want to make ask them you know okay you're a chef what would you like would you like to make a dinner would you like to make a dessert children know like children have been in restaurants children watch tv they know what dishes are they see them on their table every day it's the one thing you're guaranteed you're going to see food every day ask them is there something that they would like to make and if not make a suggestion the pasta yeah start with the pasta start with the you can get child safe knives for chopping vegetables um you um i mean the opportunities are there like the it's it's endless um what you could do well bread making as well i think is is is really good as well and and there's an i i i did this before i i got a bread recipe years ago from a friend in waterford and it is the simplest bread recipe in history you'll have to share that okay i will share it equal quantities natural yogurt and self-raising flour basically what i do is i get a top of you know the 500 gram top of natural yogurt right what went into a bowl i get about 400 i would take about 400 given that you'll not get a full 500 i would get 450 grams of self-raising flour whack it into the bowl stir the hell out of it whack it into the oven for 35 minutes at 200 bingo that's it perfect that's it perfect and you could do that with the children and then top of natural yogurt 450 grams self-raising flour give them a spoon stand well back leave them batter the hell out of it right it in it goes in italy um there's the um the magalusi way they have children from the age of three carrying steaming hot bowls of pasta to sit down and eat because the children have learned you know it's hot don't touch it and they there's that element of trust now what works in italy might not work here but it is doable in um parts of africa they have children using machetes from the age of 12 months i'm not saying it's culturally it's culturally appropriate but i'm just saying you know it is there it is it can work can work Tina before i let you go and um sadly we're coming toward the end but you have brought in a pile of books and i'm i always say books are so important at every age start them young and keep them going until they're a hundred but you've got a couple of books and we're going to start i think with a series written by a mutual friend of ours yes from louise flanagan dragon terror absolutely fabulous um if you don't um if you haven't heard of it get it it's fabulous for all ages i read it to the children at school i read to my children at night there are six books in the series it's available in the library but it's also available from lots of places so maybe if you have somebody um school age and you might be like have a birthday or something coming off i highly recommend the dragon terror series um there is also i also had to plug my sister brie car she has her books as well oh yeah but yeah but there's a lot of books and picture books if you don't have a budget i will just say i contacted some of the charity shops before i came on here so just before we go i will say if you can't get to your local library your charity shops carry a stock of um books and toys and if you have toys or books in really good condition um they are looking for them so you know you can you can you don't have to buy everything you and one thing i found certainly with my own children and i suspect this is the case with many children don't assume that they can only read letters that are six foot tall and only read books that have four words on a page maybe give them something that might be slightly advanced maybe push them a little bit i i gave a niece of mine once i gave for a copy of the hobbit and i was questioned about it sure that's she's nice as well if she can't read it this year she'll read it next year but i want her to have the hobbit and she did read it and she loved it and i think sometimes we almost fail to appreciate how advanced they are and i would i would much rather overestimate than underestimate their abilities because the chances are you will you know if you you are far more likely to underestimate what they can do than to overestimate what they can do if that makes sense exactly and on the flip side of that you can always give older children picture books because you're trying to build critical thinking so give them picture books ask them okay what what's the illustrator doing in this book try and find the hidden message read between the lines so it works both ways challenge children and also challenge children you know give them the unexpected Tina it's been an absolute pleasure thanks very much indeed for coming into us and hopefully we've given people some idea some inspiration and most of all we've said to people look have the crack do enjoy yourself listen to them yeah listen to your children ask your children what they want to do because you know and i i can i believe you me i can stand testament to this in a flash there'll be through school through college and suddenly there'll be working jobs and driving cars and going out to the pub and you'll be wondering how the hell did that happen trust me thanks i know thank you tina it's been a pleasure bye bye now get more out of summer for less with over one thousand essentials from just three euro and under including skincare toiletries cosmetics and more this year summer better be ready shop in store and online today boots with you for life selected stores subject to availability if you're thinking of changing some furniture a huge sale is now on at McGinley's furniture in Etter Kenney it's a chance to save hundreds of euros on floor model suites beds and mattresses dining and occasional furniture with reductions in all departments it's a great opportunity to grab a real bargain in the big sale now on at McGinley's furniture on the joe boner link road letter candy see McGinley's 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the real rewards app for low prices that compete with anyone it's got to be super value enjoy alcohol responsibly call now on 07 for 91 25 thousands quick comment on facebook before we go any further margo says with regards to hospitals perhaps we should look to the hospital in litter kenny or kill kenny excuse me where there are no issues in the emergency department patient attends the gp who assesses them if it's a medical problem they're sent straight to the medical ward if they have a suspected fracture they're spent sent straight to x-ray it took two years to train up staff and it certainly does seem that's the model that did work here 15 years ago i in the mid 90s i i had a dose of food poisoning which required a few days in hospital and my gp referred me straight to the ward and i my my gp said right report to medical to at such and such a time and i did and it was sorted and you know and and that's that's the way things worked so yeah perhaps we should be looking back to those days again and try and keep people out of the emergency department as much as possible now i have a very special guest in studio who has a story to tell uh rory creedy rory good morning rory rory um you were in rough mullin yesterday and you um not not to put too find a point on it you saved the lives of three girls yeah okay yeah okay tell tell tell us the story the way because i i've been looking at at the briefing note here and and this is a phenomenal story so in in your own time and in your own way tell us the story okay um so so yesterday uh myself and the family my wife and my daughter is she's three and my niece sophie and sister there we all headed off to the beach uh very busy day at the beach um you know usual you know sunbathing ice creams um you know taking a few dips in the in the water um so it was coming towards the end of the day and i decided i'll go back in for another another quick dip and before we go so i started to walk towards the beach and i kind of noticed it was very busy so i was scanning the beach looking for a gap in the water you know that i could make my way in and not be on top of anyone you know yeah um and what it was a little bit quieter over where the ferry pulls in yeah on the ramp okay in hindsight that's not the best place to go for a dip and there is signs and there's flags and everything but i just whatever reason i just thought i'm going in for a paddle walk and there's people already in there as well uh so i went in and i was i walked into my hips and i was you know the usual you're trying to build up the courage to uh take your dip you know it's going to be cold and you're thinking you know kind of edging in slowly and then i noticed uh few meters in the distance was three girls were struggling in the water um so one of the girls was completely under and then i saw the panic in one of the other little girl's faces and she she just you know like i tell she was tired she was asking for help so i went in towards them um and then quickly became like i realized oh i'm out i'm completely out of my depth here there's no um i can't feel the sand anymore which was kind of i didn't realize how deep it was going to get how fast it was going to get deep um so i put my arm around the first girl and then i kind of i had my kind of two i had two of them um you know from behind like at the shoulders and the girl that was submerged i was like i don't know what i'm gonna do here i'm gonna have to bring the two girls in and then come back for the third girl but she um but somehow the third girl managed to hang on to the leg of one of the other girls so as we were paddling back she just comes up through the top takes a bit of breath um but then it became apparent like i've got three people here um i'm not making any progress very fast yeah and i started to get into trouble myself um i was going under a lot myself but i was you know trying to let them use me as as a buoyancy aid or whatever and um one time i had to break away from them and come back to them um i was trying to get underneath them because i could reach the floor yeah so i was pushing them up and i was very conscious of this girl that was under she was mostly under and i was afraid of her like if she you know um but somehow we got in but the whole time we were we were paddling i was trying to shout for help nobody noticed and it felt like nobody noticed anything anyway um the the current was taking me towards the pier as well so i was as i was moving and kicking i was felt like i was making very little progress i was almost staying in the one spot but also being pulled into the deeper water in the ramp um so even even somebody could have thrown me it was a point where even a t-shirt you know yeah pulled us all in um but we got in we got in anyway um and and you you managed to do it under your own steam even though you had been i mean you'd been calling for help and and they had been calling for help i mean some you you reckon some some of the people around the beach actually assumed you were missing mm-hmm like i i went to talk to somebody like the girls around their their parents um and i just stayed at the side to catch my breath and my instinct was just to ask everybody then that was around there was loads of people around yeah um did you see that like you know did you see what just happened and the oblivious there was a guy on his phone he said i'm so sorry i didn't see anything there was another guy there sitting on the ramp and he said i thought you knew them i don't know what he meant by that but he probably just meant that i thought this was just you know yeah play or something so i suppose it's just um just to be aware of that particular area in the beach and and you you didn't know the girls i mean have you spoken to them since you're spoken to their families or spoken to their parents or yeah i went up to the parents initially afterwards and you know we're all in a bit of shock and i think it was just all a bit raw at that point um so we just said it was the girls okay and they were okay and they were a bit shook or whatever but um they came back up to me then because we were sitting you know close quite close to each other on the beach so they came back up towards maybe an hour later and we talked about it a bit more in depth then and just you know everybody was a bit emotional and stuff like that and and it's quite clear that you're still feeling i mean you know this is not something you just pass off nonchalantly and go but i've gone about your day i mean it's not like this is having a huge impact on you too like you don't see you see it on tv you don't it's very different um you're in those kind of situations and and you're conscious too that you know it could have been a bad outcome for them but i mean you know and let's call it a spade a spade it could have been a bad outcome for you too because i mean the way you were being pulled in toward that jetty and that that current that's going against you you know had you been pulled in there that could have put you at risk yeah that became that like i was very confident at the start and you can imagine that confidence just getting smaller and smaller as the event went on um and you're kind of thinking oh god like and and i'm sure i'm not sure how much sleep you had last night not much yeah i'm right i see my eyes yeah and it's but i mean you know and obviously it's going to take a while you know for you to come to terms with the enormity of this and and you know somewhere down the line i would i would be very surprised if there wasn't some form of recognition and so on and so forth but that's obviously for another day and you know that's maybe a conversation that we'll have and maybe at some point in the future we'll have the conversation again when when the initial emotional shock of it is gone but i mean rory you know all i can say is look there are three people alive you know well there's four people alive today but there are three girls alive today that might not be alive were it not for you and you know that's that that's once you've processed that knowledge i mean i think you you can you know you know yourself that that you have saved lives here and and that is a phenomenal thing and look fair fair play to you and i'm well done to you and again it i don't know if you heard any of the show where you're on we were speaking to john mccarter from the ornli and he was saying look if you were ever on the side of the water and you see a potential situation if don't he said don't ever think i wonder what if maybe should i always make the call okay always call i mean the first thing you do is you call 999 and you make the call and say there there is a problem and as he said look if we get called out on a lifeboat and it turns out it's a log floating in the water we are happy to turn back but you know and and what you did yesterday is a salatory and this is a very practical and salatory lesson that if you saw people in trouble and you responded and i think that's a piece of self knowledge that that you can with i'd say the word pride that you can you know that when you were faced with a situation you reacted that way and look um hats off um you know well well well well well well it's a hard and i know it's hard to process this it is and it's gonna take a while i'm sure and you know maybe from your own point of view maybe wouldn't want any harm to sit down and and talk to someone about it yeah but look you you will do so in the knowledge that you have saved lives and and that is a special precious thing well thank you rory thank you indeed thanks for him and just just the message just be careful look out for each other totally stay away from that that ramp it's dangerous um stay within between the flags if you see somebody struggling tell somebody before you go if there's anybody close by just tell them rory creedy thank you indeed for speaking to us and thank you for what you've done thanks um i i i can i can think of of nothing else to say and really i think there there is nothing else to say except thank you to all our participants on the show today thank you to donna marie and to carlin and carlin produced of course uh both uh contributed and manned the phones thank you to all our listeners and most importantly thanks to you from myself donal kavna have a very good day beat that cost of brexit with no customs charges do you need a uk address for your limited company or personal use space hub in dairy can provide you with your own mailbox have your post and parcels delivered to space hub and collected your convenience there's brand new 20-foot shipping


Hello everybody and welcome to the free online version of the future research lecture. My name is Alp. This is a YouTube channel called Der Plasma And we are in video number 19 We are in chapter 3 parameter limits for fusion plasmas and you might remember that in the last video We talked about the stability beta limit rising from ballooning instabilities in this video We will talk about an additional limit additional density limit so topic of today's video is in additional density limit Which rises only in tokamaks on additional density limit in tokamaks and this is really a severe limit an important limit because exceeding this limit in the plasma density May lead Well usually it's May lead oops, sorry, sorry for the typo may lead to disruptions and You might remember from video number 15 that disruptions is Something we want to avoid especially in a large-scale fusion experiment This is something which was not theoretically expected or something, but rather experimentally observed And found so experimentally observed and there usually there exists or other the stable parameter ranges where The tokamak can be operated without crossing the density limit is summarized in a certain type of plot so the stable Parameter ranges parameter Ranges where a tokamak can be operated Without exceeding the density limit is summarized in I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing that name wrong in a yugel diagram Maybe it's more like you Jill Probably and you Jill came up with that in 1983 and what is it that diagram so on that diagram we plot? oops, sorry We plot One axis one over Qs Which is basically as you remember proportional to the plasma current and on the other axis We plot the so-called Murakami parameter that is M bar is equal to N bar are not over B Phi That basically then is the plasma density So it's the if you want you can bring it down to the plasma current versus the plasma density and machine parameters Know how does such a you do a yugel diagram looks like Here you can see one. This is as I said we have Here one over the safety factor against this Murakami parameter And you can see all these crosses here or symbols So these are partly diamonds open diamonds and crosses these are stable discharges Performed in the jet Tokamak, and you can see there are a few boundaries. So first of all, there's the boundary towards lower Low values of the density so this boundary basically is a low density limit this is a low density limit and You can explain that by the first dimension Explain that by the fact that if you have two little Electrons in the beginning when you start to when you're trying to start your discharge You're basically only accelerating these electrons and there are two little collisions to little interactions with the gas to ionize it So there's no ever ever lunch process. So this is why this limit is also sometimes called runaway limit runaway limit Because what you're basically doing is accelerating a few electrons and these electrons are getting faster and faster. They are so to say they are runaway Running away, so they're getting faster and faster without delivering the energy to to the plasma So then we have a limit at one over Q equal to point five here and That limit is something which you might remember this is a limit against external kink instabilities So this is the limit at a Safety factor at the edge that this is should be larger than two to Get stability against the external kink mode Against the external Kink mode something which we discussed I Think three videos ago and then We finally have this kind of this this line here basically So this one and this is the phenomenological as I said experimentally observed a phenomenological density limit Which is not completely understood So if we exceed that limit if you exceed the density we might get a disruption, which is something we want to avoid So this is a phenol Mino Logical density limit which is not Complete Completely Unless stood Meaning it is still subject of active research Okay, let's have a closer look at the density limit. So the density limit So first of all, we will have a look at a circular Talk about meaning at a plasma having a circular polar cross-section and There we have the so-called and then the so-called usual limit applies and that is the density is Equal to the magnetic field over The safety factor and are not and this is oops, sorry And this is for Circular talker max But that I mean talker max having a circular Poloil cross-section that is the usual limit or you go in it. I don't know and if we Include the shape so non-circular cross-sections. We get a different limit So including So-called Shaped cross-sections and whenever we read something about shaped cross-sections. It means having non Circular cross-sections And cross-sections here refer to polo cross-sections then We get a different limit and G which is for green walled That is IP the plasma current over pi and a squared and that is the Green wall Limit this is an important limitation for talker max basically Okay, as I said and this is important. This is why we have to repeat it here a Disruption can occur can occur if we cross that density limit and This has been not fully understood, but there is an experimentally deduced causality so there is an Experimentally deduced causality causality That goes as follows so in the beginning before the disruption occurs in intense intense radiation from Region at the separatrix is observed The separatrix and this happens as I said also observed before just before we reach that density limit That radiation is called math This is a math Mafia is short for a Multi-faceted asymmetric radiation from The edge and what that is is that If we have an increase in radiation so a lot of radiation coming from the plasma Then what happens is that the temperature drops due to the increase in radiation So the temperature drops because the energy content of the plasma drops due to the radiation a drop of the temperature Resides in a drop in the conductivity So conductivity drops that leads to a modification of the current profile and You might remember That a modification in the current profile then you drop in conductivity can lead to the occurrence or appearance rather of tearing modes and You hopefully remember that tearing modes then can finally lead to disruptions And this is something we want to avoid Now can we understand the density limit? Yes kind of so it from a physics point of view it makes sense so understanding the linear Dependence one over Qs Proportional to end so that the Yeah, the inverse of the safety factor is proportional to n which is And that there's a linear dependence between these two well as it's written down here As observed in the experiment. So yes, we can understand that From some simple considerations First the omic heating in a toka mug Which is the heating due to the current driven driven by external coils By the external transformer rather so the omic heating is due to resistivity and That scales so the power of the omic heating OH omic heating is Proportional to the square of the plasma current Then we have the radiation losses So radiation losses and the radiation losses P rad They scale with the squared density with the square plasma density and this math develops Starts to develop when the Omic heating power or the radiation of the plasma when they in those two are the same at Oops, sorry at one position in the plasma Usually at the plasma boundary, this is where it happens and then Keep in mind that the safety factor at the edge that this is basically proportional to the Magnetic field be phi the toroid is a strong toroid magnetic field over the plasma current and Then we can put all this together Which tells us then that we have start with the inverse of the safety factor, which is as I have just written it above the plasma current IP Proportional to the plasma current over the magnetic field and This is as I have written in the as I've written here oops, this is then proportional to the square root of The power the heating power Over the magnetic field again be phi and This is Then proportional as I have written it here to the density Over the magnetic field and a viola. This is the linear scaling as we observe it experimentally and then to add to the other parameters they come into play when we want to compare um different Experiments so comparing of different experiments And being able to plot them on one scaling. This is why we You do then edit in our dependence and this gives us then finally the we want density limit as we had discussed on the previous slide Now the interesting thing is and you might have guessed that from the headline or the title of this lecture Is that this is an additional density limit occurring only in toka max? There is no such Severe density limit Installators no such severe density limit instillators. This is something important to keep in mind Now why are we interested generally in higher density? So as a reminder as a reminder the energy confinement time and the energy confinement time scaling according to the so-called isso4 scaling Tells us that the energy confinement time scales with the plasma density to the power of 0.54 Meaning a higher density is beneficial because it results in a higher energy confinement time Now also instillators the density cannot really get arbitrarily high So but the story is a bit different than instillators. So what is happening in instillators? so instillators They Observe or you observe instillators a radiative collapse terminating the plasma terminating The plasma of course much less violent than in a toka mark where you have a disruption which often the terminator plasma What happens? During this radiative collapse when the density is getting too high. So Radiative collapse basically is that the power radiated away from the plasma is or exceeds the heating power Which Results then in a sudden decrease of the stored energy of the in the plasma stored energy Resulting in a sudden termination of the plasma basically the point however here is that the Radiated power is usually Due to impurities usually due to impurities That means this is something we can control we can modify so we have an influence on that and this kind of radiative limit is referred to as the Pseudo limit or sometimes also to to the Radiative density limit you will find Both these expressions in in literature So we have this pseudo limit or the radiative density limit occurring in a oops. Sorry occurring in a stellar radar and This is as I said something different to a toka mark because in contrast to Toka mark We can push this limit higher. We can push the density higher by for example wall conditioning wall conditioning Which reduces the impurities which allows us to get a cleaner plasma or in general by adapting Different experimental Experimental scenarios and this these are methods which allows us to Achieve higher densities so we can Push the density limit much higher in a stellar radar. This is why this is rather an Operational limit depending on the scenario you're running in your stellar radar and not such a severe thing as in a toka mark Okay, that's it for lecture 19 for video number 19 where we talked about an important additional density limit in toka max This was the so-called green walled density limit something which is not completely understood thus being still topic of active research I Told you and this is important to keep in mind that when we pass the density limit We usually get a disruption in the toka max something we want to avoid Interestingly enough this limit does not appear in a stellar ater in the stellar ater. We have something slightly different We get a radiative collapse if the density gets too high because usually then the radiative Power increases as well the power radiated away by the plasma, but we can reduce that by tuning the operational scenario or Sorry in general tuning the plasma Chamba for example by proper wall conditioning. So this is not Such a severe limit as in the toka market we can push stellar ater's too much higher densities Okay, that's it hope to see you in the next video


Ukraine came under strong Russian missile attacks early Monday that struck regions in the east near the front lines of fighting as well as central and western parts of the country, killing one person and injuring at least 30.8 least four missiles hit Kharkiv, the country's second largest city, injuring one person, said Mayor Ior Terikhov. Regional governor Ola Sinyi-Hubov also said two people were injured and two more were trapped under rubble after a strike on the village of Smeetha. City services shared a video showing a man being helped from a damaged house in Smeetha.