nd I think the other access point is that we want those students sorry, I'm not going to be succinct I promise sorry Heather. And the other point that that we I thought about since is we want all the students have access to our coming on this program so we're in the specialized programs and if we split them. We're adding a like a matrix of decision making of what school different kids go to and it could eliminate access or reduce access to being part of a program that can be absolutely wonderful for students and specialized programs who also want to be connected or have connections to Spanish language and cultural aspects of that so this point that's not in the plans I just want to be really clear so you know I think I heard that feedback a couple times. We've talked about it multiple times over the last three years at school committee unrelated to a building project and nothing at this point is convincing us that splitting the programs in the best interest of children. Sorry, less succinct than I hoped but but it's a worthwhile point to not be succinct about I think so. But thank you for raising it. Yeah, there's any way that I can offer something as a core firm principle, I don't feel you're still in the call or not. Oh, how are you. I, I'm glad that Heather, you know, raised this point and the only thing I'd like to add is that the one thing and I'll say this over and over again is that not the one thing that concerns me but I will say this is that if, if there are now two schools from three, what will happen is that this brand new school will have all of these various experts all in this one building, right, and then we won't have these experts at Crocker farm. And so what I want to just make sure is that we continue to have access to these experts because there's a sort of continuum to how this plays out because we often will have students who are in quote their own home school, who perhaps there's an inkling that this may actually be needing something additional for their services. And so I would just be asking that, that it doesn't become like the new schools to place where this sort of area of expertise where they can easily walk from like one part of the building to then go collaborate with someone else where Crocker farm is like, you know, 15 minutes down the road, and it takes a little bit more of a sort of complex scenario for us to get the, the, the consultation or collaboration we need. So I think I had a really brilliant point and but for me it just is this whole idea again about sticking up for Crocker farm to make sure that we don't become like the, the, the, yeah. Oh, Derek, it's a point. I hear you. And, and then this is something that is so tough. When you're doing a project like this, I feel that that it's an opportunity to change so much. You know that that there's a, there's a desire to solve every, everything with one project. And there's no such thing as solving everything because as soon as you solve it, it's something else is going to pop up, right so it's always work in progress so I hope, I really hope that as a community we understand that this is just one step on a path. And that we get this building built. We keep saying yes, we keep working on a program and we keep doing all the things we need to do to evolve as a community that knowing that we need some physical infrastructure to support that and it has to be better than what we have now. And, and I really hope we don't get hung up on, on solving every problem and that in a way that keeps us from, from solving a lot of. Yeah, and I think the last thing I'll say and then open it up because I think Derek's points a good one and thanks Heather for that is that something that I continue to say at every meeting I think Donna can correct me if I'm wrong is this building is designed for 50 years. I don't know what our programs are going to look like 20 years from now 30 years from now probably 10 years from now, right, kids needs are going to evolve. And we'll have to see that am I making commitment that they'll never be a specialized program across from absolutely not. I think we're going to have to see how this works and specialized programs have shifted schools in our district before unrelated to building packages, based on what what what people then in charge felt like was in the best interest of kids so I think that door, you know is still something that we continue we need to continually be assessing over time. I think it's just not something in my opinion that we need to bake into an explicit building project right now because you know with 375 kids and 18 classes at cracker farm it's going to be, you know, you 18 classes now it's busy right and so we want to be realistic about space and you know I think that Derek's larger point something that I'm also prone to say is, we can't think about cracker farm in terms of the capital needs there as well. That we don't want to have is kind of repeating the errors of the past where a new school gets done and the other schools get ignored until they have like a major infrastructure project that cracker farm does has ongoing needs that do affect the accessibility of students you know we have an impact from three years ago we just talked about that in Pellum actually our progress towards it that that continues to need to evolve and support students because there will be students with special needs at cracker farm a significant quantity throughout time so. Appreciate the conversation and thanks for bringing it up Heather. I just want to make sure we say that we're talking 23 classes at cracker farm because when you add the five preschool classes, right, the number goes up by another 50 or 60 so it's a failure. Hi Sarah. Thanks. So my question is, I guess from a much higher higher level, looking at these 18 slides of, I guess, functional aspects of design and, and they and all those schools look so spacious and so well lit and I'm thinking, how big is this building gun. Or how big does it need to be or can it be given our enrollment sizes, and is there any possibility that we would need a two story building to. To make all the space that we need in the different kinds of space, and if it's not if there's still one going to be one story buildings are will they be significantly expanding in the site, or is it just too soon to say. Well, no thank you and you know. It is going to be a relatively large school. The square footage where we're still navigating right now, the mass school building authority MSBA want will weigh in on what spaces are absolutely necessary, what aren't they have guidelines. For example, classrooms somewhere between 900 and 1000 square feet and art rooms at 1000 right so they kind of keep us in check on what's an appropriate square footage for spaces. So you're not just building a Taj Mahal right so that that you really utilize in the money for educational purposes so so that's great. What we, and so, once we have the educational program and understand the needs special ed plays a large part in that. So once we understand all those programmatic needs MSBA will say well, the overall square footage of your building can only be 1.5. Kind of, it's called grossing factor above and beyond your educational program needs and so we need to stay within that. So we need to design a very efficient building, regardless of how big it is or how many classrooms you need or a program space you need. So, safely say either site, it's not going to matter, you don't have swing space for the students, right, so you're going to have to build the new school or renovate and expand the school what however it's going to play out. The new school is in existence. So when you start peeling back the layers and of the site and all the site constraints etc etc, and taking into consideration, wanting outdoor learning spaces etc that I can safely say it's definitely going to be at least a two building. But that isn't it's funny I was talking to David, you know at Dinesco we've designed. I don't know I feel like hundreds of schools I cannot recall a school that we've designed that was a single story school right outdoor space is so important for so many other reasons that putting a footprint of a very large building is probably not the best use of the time we've learned that the travel time on an 80,000 square foot building that you currently have actually takes longer on a single story than if it's vertical. So the kids it actually is quicker to traverse through a school if it's actually on two stories so the time on learning we always look at and make sure that we maximize the classroom spaces. So that's our current thinking right now, we have investigated the sites, understanding where we can build for river as you know, or maybe you don't know has some wetlands and some other complications. So if we're doing that zero we're looking at is it going to be a geothermal system, or is it going to be VRF if it's geothermal we're going to even need more land to put the ground source heat pump so we're starting to learn and understand all the site attributes and constraints which will then help us inform. How many stories the building needs to be, but I can probably safely say it's going to be more than one story that helps sorry I guess I can't be consent succinct either. Thank you. Thank you. My daughter's first school was three stories. It was quite compact and it was great. Yeah we obviously needed functioning elevators at all times. You're going to need a functioning elevator on two stories right right so, but that is really insignificant when you look at the other aspects. It's a smaller footprint, it's more compact. You don't need as much as many footings you can go up so there really a lot of benefits to it, multiple story facility. It's actually land. It's a it's not common that you actually have land that you can build on we just one of the images in this presentation was the cabinet school and Newton and Andrew school, we had less than two acres and we had 485 kids that needed to be housed, and it was a three you just do there was just no other way to accommodate all of the program needs and the outdoor needs and don't forget about parking. Right so that's a whole nother layer of complexity when we do this but yeah I think it's rare that we've seen actually I was talking to David early and I think he was saying that he most of the schools that he's been involved with as well, have been multiple buildings as well, three. But, hi Tony. Hi, thanks. I'm just thinking when you mentioned the three stories you'll have a smaller roof space on which to put photovoltaic panels. I don't know yet of how much space the panels will. Well I guess you don't because you don't know how much energy the building designs going to need but if there's some sort of. If there's a need for a significant array that will not fit on the roof of the building, and perhaps not on the parking lot, you know if there's canopies over the parking lot. I mean using some sort of shelter for outdoor classrooms, like maybe out in the fields that could also hold solar panels so maybe it's, you know, open on all sides and it's there for the elements, you know protection from snow and sun and rain, but it could have solar panel, you know, dual purpose. Yeah, thank you. Well we're. We did a school in Lexington and it's net zero, and it was a large school 645 students three stories. We were able to provide enough pvs or solar panels between the parking lot and the roof structure for it to be a net zero. So that's depending on how many parking spaces you need right so so we haven't even gotten to that level yet, but if that isn't sufficient. Yes, there are there are other ways to look at it there's even you can even do a structure or light structure over the mechanical equipment to take advantage of the rooftop space as well so we haven't right determine the gross square footage of the building to understand what the you know how much energy you need to determine how many pvs but we're going to have to if needed we will be as creative as we need to be to make this net zero. Thanks. I think we have a couple of folks that were here that maybe joined us from the breakout rooms. Yeah we've we've still got two breakout rooms in session I told them that we come back in in two minutes now a 35. Hi there, I have a question. I'm a school committee member, and I received a letter from a constituent who and this is maybe a silly question but who asked about central air conditioning in the building. Give and she said given global warming and temperatures rising and that we're trying to get make a building that's gonna last for 50 years. Maybe this is silly question in New England but like have you worked on new construction of schools in Massachusetts that have central air is it an option. It actually let me say it differently it's really not an option we build with air conditioning. So, so to say it differently right. You will have air conditioning. And so, yeah, thank you. Yeah. Great good to know thank you. There's a building that will absolutely be utilized year round I mean there's no question about it and, as everyone knows the shoulder months are getting longer and longer and the need for air and. Yeah, systems now provide air conditioning that just just makes the most sense. It was an easy one. Great. Tiffany and Hi. Hi there.  We have a senior in high school so this won't be applicable to him but we have a four year old as well. Social being kindergarten in the fall of 23. And so we're just plugging back in and I guess we're curious about the. It's probably a dumb question we're curious about sort of the process in terms of, when does this get finalized. So, how do all the design ideas come together and get finalized and then our other question was as design ideas are proposed. There are also financials to match those design ideas, not so much for the build. That's not our main concern but again having had kids already go all the way through our concern is maintenance and being able to have those costs built into town budget for, for example, the beautiful idea of having display of electronic work that children are doing because they do so much of it now in built in screens and walls as you enter a beautiful building. That's awesome until the screens don't work, and we don't have money in the budget to fix them. So, just curious about whether or not the budgetary piece backs up the design ideas. I guess the first the first part. We are in the feasibility stage right now feasibility study stage so we will be looking at all the options between now and June, and then we will have a decision on which concept right option that we want to them pursue which will occur during schematic design at that time during schematic design. It's it's pretty robust, we will design the building the site, all of the attributes of both so that when we bring it forward to the mass school building authority, we know how much the building and the project is going to cost the town. At that point, that's when the town will be having the votes to have the project proceed as part of the design process we will meet with the facilities folks and Mike and his team to ensure that not only are the walls going to be durable. I mean, can the floors be maintained in the most simplest ways but you're right. Facilities are very complex can be very complex. And so we don't want to design something that cannot be supported whether it's mechanical equipment, or, you know, some fancy displays that no one knows how to operate or whatever so we will be working with Mike and his team to make sure that everything that we're doing is understandable as easy and they have the staff or the training will be there for them. Mike, do you want to talk about the operating budget. Yeah, so a couple of things. I think that is, I think it's a great question it's one that comes up a lot we have two members of our facilities department, Robert Roy Clark and Ben Harrington are on the building committee. I can tell you that every meeting, either during it or after when they find me they're always thinking about the operational costs and exactly the question you you ask not just the financial impact but the management impact of different technologies and use. In terms of the financial piece I think that our current buildings this is what I want to perhaps share is that we're always retrofitting right we're always trying to figure out how to introduce technology in spaces that we're not designed for technology so from a from a financial aspect from an operational aspect. I actually think there's really advantages that will come from having schools that are designed for 21st century technology. The reality is two of our schools were not really well designed when they were built for 1970s technology. And so we do, we're very inefficient, I'll be honest with you with some of the things that we have to do to make sure that our students do have access to technology in the room so you know I actually think that you know with smarter design principles we could see some long term operational savings. Again, can project 50 years forward but you know in the in the short run, not just because we have newer technologies but actually they'll be, they'll be designed for still be in spaces that are designed to have them and hold them. Instead of you know building what we have now where we'll do like, you know large screen TVs because we don't really have the setup for Mimeo boards and in the best way and then where they are in the room is sort of ill designed so we have to put everything on wheels and all of those things we may want to maintain some of those aspects but right now retrofitting generally is not cheap right we're trying to taking an existing product and round peg square hole kind of thing I'm always mess up expressions I probably mess up that one so. So I think it's the right thing to be thinking about the long term operational costs and I think that's true on the technology but it's also true in terms of everything about the building we wanted to be five years from now no matter. Different people may be running different parts of the building we want it to be understandable usable for folks and so that we can look at long term efficiencies and cost savings that come from better technology and better design in our schools. So sorry long winded but but I think it's right on but it's something that I know if I ever forget about it. Ben and Rupert are always reminding me of that both from the financial but the operational aspects as well it's really helpful to have them on the committee. Great thank you both. So I just want to welcome everyone back from their small groups. We'll definitely be talking to your group leaders and and checking in with them about about your comments and ideas, either regarding the design patterns that we reviewed with you or any other issues that you brought up. Just as a time check in it's 840 right now. I do have one closing activity that's a five minute activity for that is around blue sky ideas and asking you to share some of your aspirational blue sky ideas for this project. But we also have time to continue I think I'm taking a few more questions if people if people have them at this point. I guess I'm David I would just like to say that we have another. I think you mentioned at the very beginning that we do have another educational visioning workshop but we also have a community forum that won't be focused as much on the educational aspects but on the overall project, talking about what the criteria are in your priorities are for the overall project we'll be talking about sustainability and what we've learned to date on both buildings and both sites. So that is February 3. If anyone wants to join us and I think all of that information's on the project website. And that's and that's from 630 to nine. Correct. Third. Yep. Yeah.  Yeah, just before we move off the educational aspect. You showed some really great things about innovation hub stem steam rooms and you mentioned how the MSBA space summary includes like a science engineering tech room. So there being some thought into how that builds into the schedule. So right now, as you probably are well aware, the students have 40 minutes of five different specials one day a week. One of them is technology is the idea that that would be replaced by this innovation hub maker space science stem or would it be part of library class or would it be in addition to the schedule and if so what would it replace. That would be in addition to the actual day of the students. Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I mean, you certainly can jump in but I know from talking to other superintendents different schools have used it differently some schools use it as sort of a science lab that particularly the upper grade levels but not exclusively students kind of are able to do different technology lessons that aren't necessarily possible in traditional classroom settings some use it more as you describe as kind of where technology and that that specials class meets and I've talked to some superintendents where it's a hybrid where it is a multi use space where there sometimes students might go there for specials but it's also available at certain times a day for classroom teachers who want to get more involved in their stem curriculum. It's the nature of what's in the room so I think the sky's the limit, and I think it's going to be a conversation with our talented staff about what makes sense over time. But David, you know and Donna you certainly can jump in I just know it's a conversation I've certainly had with other folks who have been through the MSB process. Yeah. Well I would just say, you know, to Michael's point that we're designing a building that's going to last for decades to come we don't know how things are going to evolve so certainly having that kind of larger space that has furniture that allows for some real hands on work and project based delivery is is is something that a lot of schools find attractive and they may not initially know how they're going to fit it into their schedule. But the other thing I wanted to say is that we're looking at classrooms themselves as being like maker spaces maker classrooms. We're looking at classrooms as being robust enough in terms of technology in terms of flexible furniture and storage and sinks in every classroom. It's not enough that they can they can adapt to that that more hands on approach because many schools are are in really they're they're talking a lot about project based learning it's and that's nothing new right I mean we've been doing project based learning but but they're trying to figure out how they're drawn to that because it's what engages a wider variety of students. And, and it's also what connects to their ideas about future ready learning goals, but they haven't necessarily figured out how to how they're implementing it within their school they're at all different places let's just say. So we want to make sure that the classrooms themselves lend themselves to that kind of delivery and the spaces in between. It's really it's really looking at trying to maximize the the looking at scenario planning in such a way that that many spaces can become can adapt to delivery of something like a like a like a stem or a steam program. Other questions, we know it's been a long day for for for all of us. If there are no other questions at this point we could move into just a closing activity. Does that sound good. Alright, I'm going to share my screen here one more time. So, this is a sort of a brainstorm for what your blue sky ideas are for you know the school for the sort of amenities within it qualities of the school. I want to get you frustrated about what's what's not possible or promote, you know, kind of like lots of spending that's unnecessary, but blue sky ideas are really trying to encourage people to think creatively and aspirationally about what you would love to see happen within your schools in terms of programming or the kind of affordances of spaces so. So, just thinking about a blue it could be a blue sky idea for something like a sculpture garden or, you know, for or for a maker space or a space that you can imagine. If your teacher or your parent, your your children really getting a lot out of so thinking about that in terms of size shape color furniture lighting anything you want to kind of describe to us. So, just to open up for you to share your blue sky ideas here, and this will be our exit ticket so feel free to to to leave once you've once you have given us your ideas you can submit more than one. There's I think there's a 250 character limit so if you get cut off you can just send another one in. And certainly share with us to your hearts content, whatever, whatever you'd be most excited about. And I guess I'll just say also people do have other questions. You know, we're here so just ask us now, or if you have additional thoughts. I actually have a slide with Debbie Westmoreland's Michael, could you, could you maybe put that in the chat Debbie's email. She's our point person for taking additional comments. As you're thinking about this at greater length. And if anyone wants to turn off their mic and share your blue sky idea, feel free to do that as well. So those people that are leaving we really appreciate you taking the time to be with us and we'll look forward to future future meetings and carrying on the conversation. I like the roller skate rental one. No shortage of ideas here, and really nothing that looks to out of out of out of the realm of possibility. The spirit of blue sky I will suggest that when I asked my six year old, or sorry nine year old, gosh he grows fast. What he wanted he said he wanted a swimming school where water slides take you into your classrooms, and there's a lap pool and like a water polo area in the classrooms. So how's that for blue sky. That was school. Yes, that's amazing. I would like to say that we love engaging the kids and their creativity and even at this age right what what they think is possible but we, we will engage them, or work with the schools to engage them. So I would like to go to the schools as they learn about how a building comes together, how do you put a playground together what would you like to see on the playground like that that's real like like those, those comments and thoughts are really helpful throughout the design process. People have seen this book here. I mean, is it. I don't know if you're able to see it on my screen. It's a little blurry. Yeah, it's a little blurry I don't understand why. You know it's because I have that blur on the back I'm going to take that off hold on, and then you're going to be able to see it. Okay, so here we go. If I built a school. This is a great book for kids to be thinking about all you know, fantasizing about what they'd like to see in a school but also engaging them in a conversation about what are the things that we need to be thinking about and they have great, great feedback. Yes. Yes, Anastasia says you love that book that's great. All right. Well we're going to be putting all these together as a set of validated notes that connect also to other conversations the continuing conversation that we're having. We're going to make it available on the project website. And again, thank you very much for for coming. Oh yes someone mentioned the book the third teacher which is another great book. Yeah, I really like Mike. Yeah, I can hold it up. Yeah, it's really. I got it on my back on my bookshelf right back here too. Yeah, yeah, but it's every now and then I just pull it out because it just makes me think a little bit differently about where things can be even in our current context but it's. Yeah, the third teacher 79 ways you can use design to transform teaching and learning, but really need images it gets some of the comments that were for about you know there's a section describing some special needs and accessibility, all sorts of play, you know there was no no water slides that I saw but there were slides and different play activities and ways to get around the building so it's a fun read if anyone's interested and you know I have a copy if anyone wants to borrow with their welcome to just reach out to me. I'm happy to lend it out. Thanks, Mike. Everyone, everyone. Tonight everyone. Thank you.