George Bruno and the 21 report were at the 21 convention the final event of the decade, and I'm having a conversation with Stefan Arneo. Welcome Thanks for having me George. Absolutely That was a great presentation. You just came off the stage. What is your impression of the audience and of the event so far? Love the event very high quality men Diverse group of guys. I was doing my own research watching. I think the top three videos that Anti-Semmion seems like you guys like talking about picking up chicks So I had to put some picking up girls in the Presentation and then and then I noticed that no one this year speaking so much about money So I brought the money and the real estate to the table a little bit I thought it was a good match to bring the money and the girls because without without women There's no reason to get money right right. I thought it was a good pairing Thank you. It was you know, how you pair wine with certain meals I feel that that your speech was a very good pairing and Talking to a lot of guys on the way up here to the studio Most of them really loved it. That's great. There was a visual too. I would see guys I'm like, so what did you think they go? They did this like their mind was blown kind of thing and I thought wow good That said it all. Well, you know, I had to cram either cram a 16-hour Hard times create strong men book into an hour And then I split up with the Oracle my new book the Oracle the Queen the Princess and the whore So I wanted to bring what is that? 20 30 hours of content into an hour. That's hard to do and and somehow I finish it right on the notes Yeah Fantastic. All right. Well rather than talking about the presentation Because that people will see that video right and digital is forever So people are gonna be watching that for the next five ten fifteen twenty years Let's talk about some other things.  You've written a lot of books Tell me about the first book you wrote and the most recent book great So my first book I wrote this one here money people deal and it was 2011 I went I was a struggling young entrepreneur So was that oh my gosh seven years ago? So I was my mid-twenties and I had some success I owned you know some buildings and I had some passive income and I was starting to flip houses and stuff And I went to this seminar and this guy said hey you gotta learn to write a book And I thought oh, I'm I have an English degree And you know, I'm thinking oh well I can write and sure why not so I end up buying this $3,000 how to write a book course and I went home and it sat on the shelf And I didn't do anything with it and then finally somehow I got fed up and I took I ended up writing a hundred and twenty blogs and 120 days and I took the top 30 blogs made into this book called money people deal and within the year I raised five million dollars of capital for my real estate deals That book launched my coaching company my education company, which is you know my passion now and then it sold over 20,000 copies and I'm from Canada Canadian bestsellers 3,000 copies. We've done 20,000 copies in Canada So it's been a real success to to build a platform off of a book like that Teach people how to raise money how to how to build a real estate portfolio my newest book It's the hard time series. So hard times create strong men is the first book in that series all about power and being a man The second book in the series is this one dead man walking It's all about darkness the third one's about demons and the last one's about ethics and women That's the Oracle the Queen the princess and the whore So I ended up with this hard times project never planned on writing about men But I found that the men were so screwed up so weak didn't have fathers And I just I just been doing this out of a labor of love and passion It's great to come here and talk to you guys because this is the perfect audience for the hard times project.  What can a man do by when he invests in himself with your product your training Yeah, what does he get out of it? What depends I mean at the at the lowest level guys just getting books You know a book or an audio book if you're a guy you don't have a lot of money a book or an audio Book's a great thing to open the mind, right? It's almost like an appetizer If guys want to get a little more serious, maybe they come to an event like 21 convention or one of my classes We do four classes a year. We teach how to get started with real estate investing I don't have a hard time class yet I might end up making one who knows and then at the top level we do very high service coaching and those those classes start or those Packages started 19,000 go to 73,000, but those classes I mean the starter ones is we literally walk you through getting your first deal done with on your own money real estate Deal so you make to spend 20, but you'll make 30 or 40 and then the top level I coach they're called platinum students and they do a dozen deals a year So somebody wants to be a full-time investor We can get you to that point and I've got some students who are taking home a million dollars a year So my top students are taking home that Other top students are making three four hundred grand, but they're doing work You know those guys are they take it's almost like a cake mix They take the cake mix home they add the water they add the eggs They put it in the oven and they get it if you buy the cake mix and you don't make the cake mix You're not gonna call it Betty Crocker Betty. What's up, you know, you got it put in the work. Sure. Sure Who was your biggest influence? Oh Man, I've had so many over the years, you know, I mentioned on stage that when I was 21 I was really struggling. I had divorced parents. So I had a weak dad. He never could measure up and I started Studying and and getting hungry and reading a lot. My mother taught me to reach you said read every day before bed That was just that was the deal. So I started reading and read I read Richard Porta by Robert Kiyosaki Changed my life and I had five grand of the bank. I'd saved up as a guitar teacher and I had five grand of the bank So I ended up spending on seminars I put myself ten thousand dollars in debt to go see Bill Bartman and he's one of the top entrepreneurs of all time He's on the same list as Henry Ford. I spent a week with Bill Bartman It was ten grand to go and I did not have the money to go at all staying at a five-star hotel I bought myself a lobster club sandwich at the at the restaurant because I wanted to taste what it was like to be rich I want to stay there. I remember I bought this lobster lobster club It was like a 17 dollar sandwich and I see Bill Bartman behind the stage eating a five dollar footlong for subway It gave me some context, right? Yes, it was billionaire. He's eating a ham sandwich from subway I'm eating this lobster club and I realized wow, you know the rich guys He's rich, but he's frugal too. So it was a that was a really great experience of Trump who loves McDonald's Yeah, and KFC he's eating KFC on his plane at McDonald's and you know, it's why not the Big Mac is a great burger You know, so why not? So it was a really great experience because what happened was years later when I actually had the money to Stay at that hotel.  I got upgraded to Business first class and it was just phenomenal just unlimited everything. I just had my own little concierge flight attendant Yeah, and I thought it was a random thing that I thought about it for a second I'm like there is a method to this madness Because it makes flying anything less suck. It does suck. Yeah, absolutely. You know what I said to my assistant So look I'm 33 now put me in first class business class I don't even care how much it costs now because I just don't want to be in the cattle car in the back Where everyone's farting all the time like put me put me in the first class and even hotels now I used to stay at the the Hojo the Howard Johnson shitty hotels and now I'm like give me the nice hotel I'll spend the money like I'm 30. I'm hurting a little bit. Let's get something. Yeah What's next for you? Oh Man George, that's a big question. Well, we're starting to license out the black card University for people who want to create their own coaching company. So we're starting to license that out I'm probably gonna do another two books this winter I'm going back to the jungle do another 40-day fast this winter what jungle Costa Rica So I'll be in Costa Rica not eating for 40 days just having water I'm probably gonna pump out another two books in the next six months And then I'm doing a media tour and a PR tour. I'm just promoting hard times and I've got to figure out What is next? I'm thinking maybe a private equity fund. Maybe a hard times class. I've been in this I got these stabilized. I had cancer last year. Yeah, and The doctors told me I've dead in two weeks and I went to the jungle and fasted. That was a big gamble and I ended up coming out on the other side, but it kind of Smashed my goals. It smashed my vision. It smashed a lot of things in the last year I've been kind of floating a little bit. I grew a beard.  So I don't know man I'm in this like space. I'm doing a lot of spiritual work. I gotta clean clean this up. Yeah, I watched Grant Cardone grow to what he is today and it's amazing and it happened in The past five years wasn't the grant that he is now and a lot happened in five years an awful lot happened. So I Don't think he I think five years ago. I don't think he would have even imagined that What he is now? I don't even think that was on the on the blackboard. Yeah, well, and that's that's the thing I'm keeping myself open I got this diagram on the back of dead man walking and this is God channeling through man It makes his heart shape which is unconditional love and I'm kind of open to the channeling of that I know I'm gonna go on a 48 fast every year. I fast and I completely change everything So I'll come out of the jungle after listening To the universe God what I'm gonna call it and I'll probably have some brilliant ideas And I'll have a very clean body and you know, everything will be great But you know, I commend Grant. He's done a lot of work on himself And you know, I'm even gonna do some of the things he did I saw him speak in August in LA and I got to hear the real story the story. He tells off the camera.  Yes, you know, there was no turning back Two or three weeks ago. I went to see Dan Pena at University of Pennsylvania. Yeah, they're interesting fellow Love them, you know much about him. You know what? I was hanging out with Jason Capitol in LA I don't know Jason. He's a student of Dan Pena and then Dan Locke I'm a friend of mine. Yeah student of Dan Pena and I've seen his clip where he says I got some vagina cream He's put it on your vaginas.  Yeah You know, I like him because he tells it how it is and I aspire to be like Dan Pena one day I'll be that old man.  Yeah it was interesting because We've seen this really tough Dan and then he went for about a good two hours at Penn and Then he says well, I guess I have to stop because my wife over there is giving me dirty looks and I'm like And that was refreshing it was like He went from Dan Pena to being a husband Right, and he wasn't being like, you know this wussy kind of guy. He was being a considerate man Right, and you know, he was reading the Oracle Absolutely Absolutely, and I thought that was really interesting. She's a good giving me dirty looks so I need to cut this short now So and I thought that was really neat and they stayed around and shook everyone's hand and that was kind of cool Uh Women let's talk about women All right, man, let's do it. Yeah the 21 convention started out I joke around as a You know, I say it was like a how to get laid seminar, which I think can be taught in like two hours get laid get paid live Forever, that's what we all want. That's it, right? That's it But a whole weekend three or four days talking about that. I just think it creates a one-sided man And we've evolved and now we have spiritual we have ethical we have moral speakers we have Socrates got up and spoke on how to change a diaper. I mean, wow, you know So many different things have happened and it's evolved What do you see as the future of men's events like this? Well, I think there's four parts. There's the physical There's mental spiritual emotional, right?  I got eight girlfriends at one point I went into the PUA the pickup artistry and I was also a hardcore salesman and a traveling speaker Yeah, and a hardcore negotiator. I've books written on all that stuff Selling negotiating and a man can kill himself with that stuff like actually it's like it's as dangerous as heroin or alcohol Like super dangerous. So I actually that's actually part of how I got cancer was I fell in love with one of those eight girls She had a boyfriend the whole time didn't tell me about it. So for three years.  Yes, I got lots of spicy stuff. We didn't go too spicy today I kept it kind of you know basic, but I think that What I love about what you guys are doing here is that the Conversations here are those father-to-son conversations that aren't happening anymore. I said on stage You know this this this convention shouldn't exist because the father taking the son out in the garage Yeah in the garage and we should have men's groups locally where I go to the Winnipeg Whatever and you go to the Florida whatever whatever the local thing is and the men we get together and that is that has been systematically destroyed in the last 50 years, right and so this is a very important thing now Here's the sad part is the guys got a fly it costs money guys are afraid of that But you do have the online platform So I'm glad the conversation is going towards these more difficult topics and I'm glad that I think society itself is starting to open up Like Ellen DeGeneres recently she had the George Bush thing her and George Bush was saying again And she said look we're having a discussion. I might not agree, but we're having a discussion. Thank God there's a discussion because Money sex religion politics people don't talk about those But what I'm finding right now in the marketplace is men and women are searching for meaning and Meaning has been lost because we took religion out Okay, we took the Judeo-Christian route out of society and then you know even some new religions like Scientology They're like they banish that that's the last religion you can be prejudiced towards on the whole face of the earth They took Scientology way they took Christianity way they took Islam away They took well Islam is cool right now, but they took everything away So there's no religions and now man is struggling to find meaning woman is struggling to find meaning and That's where the hard time series is coming in is I'm talking about the power of darkness demons and ethics of humanity and It's it's freaky. It gives me chills because it's almost What a religion would be talking about but it's not a religion And it's the stuff that's in the Bible like this is actually I get guys saying this is the second best book out for the Bible Well, dude, it actually is like the Bible, but it's not you know, thou art Written in this middle English.   Oh, yeah. Yeah Yeah, well, you were surrounded by more firepower than you can ever imagine Yeah, I mean it It was amazing. Yeah. Yeah, you know You've been surrounded by firepower since you walked in the door Oh, I love some of these, you know jack Donovan and uh, sifan moan. You showed up them I got them as sources in hard times and it's cool because I've been joked on sifan moan One summer I said to him, I said dude, I've been joining your stuff one summer. It's all I did Was just I just watched his stuff and I ate butter chicken in my apartment. Yeah, that was it and then you know jack Donovan I've been joked on his books too. And uh, he's Incredible guys. It's really cool. I'm one of their peers now. I'm on the stage with them, which is super cool Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it when you go from reading someone's books to Sharing the stage with them. Oh Never would have imagined that but I also kind of felt this is that goes back to that belief of living or dying I remember I had the belief I want to be on sifan show. Well sifan was just on my podcast He has my book. I saw I saw the podcast. It was great. Awesome. Thank you Well, we got to talk about him which he never gets to talk about he's interviewing someone else And yeah, we've got to hear the truth of sifan moan you. Yeah, that was a good good broadcast. I loved it Yeah What is the pain in your life? What is the wound in your life? Well, I think I suffered from Things that other men have suffered from for the first part of my life. Well from all my teenage years I suffered from my parents divorce And I remember I was 17 and my mom was like, hey, I'm divorcing your dad And I actually feel like I caused that because what happened was I went to work with my dad and I came home And I complained about my dad.   I'm 17 I'm an adult I can take it and that fucked me up hard man And I think at any age of divorce with your parents it ruins your archetypes So your perfect man your perfect woman no matter what age when you find out that's untrue It destabilizes you and then Another thing that really Shattered me was I was engaged to a girl when I was in my mid 20s.   Her dad had a lot of abuse in her And we got engaged bought her a house took her to disneyland disney world four trips He or did everything for this girl And I ended up It did the wheels fell off the bus and I never the broken heart and I became a merciless womanizer Horrible womanizer and I had eight girlfriends pendulum went in the other direction. Oh, I became I call it the dark night You know men are slaves warriors knights kings. I became the dark night. I had power. I had money I could travel I could fly in different girls on different days I'd have one leaving the back of the hotel I'd have a different one in the front and I became a very very bad man Then that manifested into cancer and then I'm here now. So I've I've been I said on stage I've been to the bottom in money almost bankrupt. I've been to the bottom In relationships, you know where you want to die. I've almost been dead three times in the last year So I'm running out of stuff to be afraid of George because like I've actually broken everything and fixed it all now So we're running out It reminds me of the movie one of my favorite movies of all time came out probably four or five years ago called La Grande Valenza the great beauty an Italian film about a man who he He created the social scene like social scenes in Rome would not exist if it wasn't for him And he turns 60 years old and he realized Wow, I mean he had rooftop parties and he was the man and it was about his Uh come to Jesus moment and he had a friend who uh, he was with a buddy who Didn't have two nickels to rub together and and the man Said well, I got to go now. Um, you know, and we're gonna We're gonna watch tv me my wife. We're just gonna watch our favorite show on tv And then this man who was the life of Rome you just see his face sink because he just wanted to Vege on the couch and watch a show With a woman that he loved But he had a hundred women People chasing him everywhere, but he envied his simple friend Who just wanted a sandwich And to sit with the woman that he loved and it was just If you get a chance to watch the movie, uh, it's profound Someone like you will extract so much out of this dude I mean I watch this other movie phantom thread. You ever see that one? Yes. Yeah phantom thread. I'm watching that Lewis Yeah, I'm watching the movie with my mom at her house.  He's got a castle in england He's making the dresses for the richest women. He's got all these people working for him.  I'm like, oh my god. I'm feeling this guy right now Wow That was that was a very profound move. I'm surprised that it didn't go further than it did It's a tough time.  That was that was a good move. Yeah What advice would you give to someone who's got the Doritos encrusted fingertips? and living either in the mom's basement or in a Flop house somewhere some little rack hole of an apartment And he has a little spark of desire But doesn't really believe in himself and he's sitting right there actually right there in that camera. He's right inside there Talk to that man. Give him some hope In the steppin way Well, I mean it sounds so serving but I tell him to read hard times create strong men and I get testimonials every day from men who go wow I've been banging my girlfriend for eight years. I'm finally going to marry her after reading hard times. Wow I couldn't get a job Now I'm on my purpose. So you know that book I would say get hard times create strong men start investing in yourself You know, if you're living at mom's house move out at all costs, it'll wake you up I mean, that's what that's what you need bro is a wake-up moment And hard times create strong men is that hard dad talk that you probably haven't gotten a while or ever got it So get started with a hard talk and let's go slaying Your personal darkness climbing to the top of the mountain We talked about that today a conversation with steppin arneo. Thank you sir. Thanks, George. Appreciate you What was your experience so far with the 21 convention? Oh, I was dead. I was dead professional all across the board really good energy with a lot of people and uh I just like because it's very positive positive direction This uh, George, this is this has been a first class event. It's fantastic. You guys run a really tight ship I've been to a lot of conventions over the course of my business career and I can tell When things are well run and when things aren't and this is a very well run operation. I was very impressed It's pretty incredible to see where anthony's brought it Especially from last year which is my first year here and to see the the upgrades he's made it's been incredible I've got my notebook and with every speaker. I've written down about two or three lines Under each of the speakers of just just the key prime stuff that I got that's good. That's great It's very surreal man. I'm really enjoying it. I'm happy to live in such an era Where is such a thing like this is possible? I have never seen a group of guys like this a group of 200 men were focused Squared away and working on their values just never met a bigger group of wonderful guys It's kind of neat because I've been to a fair amount of conventions in my day But you never see one where the guys like uh here you can just see ed latimore talking to tanner about boxing Yeah, you just sit down and then you tell your boxing experiences. Everybody's kind of pinging off each other Yeah, it has been fantastic And it's been four days of guys all on the same page working in the same direction fascinating meaning some of the people Hearing their stories. Yeah, you got people traveling from other parts of the world to come here just to see some of the speakers That's amazing. The thing is impressed me. Everybody here is very serious. Yeah, they're taking it. You know close to their heart What a great convention. Thanks, george


Everybody Matt here for late in sports cars rip in 2023 panini legacy football hobbies six box break number two pick your team We have Aaron M Texans Alexandra B Panthers Andrew H Lyons Andrew S chiefs Ben S Steelers Brandon S Bucks Brian G Colts Bryce in Niners Chris S STE Bears Christopher S TR Chargers Colby C Jags D&E Vikings Edward P Broncos Greg L Jets Jacob H Giants James D Ravens James G Raiders John K Eagles John C Browns Joseph M bills Joshua K Rams Leonid G Packers Mallory M Falcons Michael B Saints Reed M Cowboys Rory C Seahawks Scott C Patriots Suzanne P commanders T. Her Titans Tyler W Bangles Weiming H Cardinals and William D. Dolphins All right, let's do it two more of these six boxers And that'll be it for the day Marvin Mims rookie to 199 Tavion Wicks and Nolan Smith Jamir Gibbs under the lights many Jonathan Ogden Will Leviss rookie Christian Gonzalez like I see rookie silver Randy Moss legends Zay flowers rookie Dalton Kincaid There's Brett Farve Legends to 299 red Joy Porter Jr Marice Jones drew as a raider Jamir Gibbs rookie and Jordan battle. This is Texans to 100 under the lights rookie auto bronze Tank Dell Terry Wilson a Sean booty for Madison rookie And Quentin Johnston rookie Jalen Carter That is rookie mini to 125 and Rian Johnson Jaren Hall That's a Tyree Wilson Sean Tucker chrome are now Washington and CJ Stroud rookie Vaughn Miller orange to 199 will Anderson prize prospects Joey Porter and Josh Downs 400 points random to all at the end Rock him Jarrett prize prospects Miles Murphy and B. Sean Robinson and Rogers Tank Bixby and Cedric Tillman. Nice. That is rookie green to 100 Anthony Richardson your colts Simpson and Marvin Mims rookie box number two Taurus Marshall blue to 25 panther color match Brian Branch and Jackson Smith and Jacob 249 Giants at the rookie Jersey auto Jalen Hyatt Briggins Jalen Carter and Tanner McKee Kelly Blast from the past Sean Tucker and Mingo Joey Porter Jr. rookie to 100 Josh Downs rookie Bronze to 100 and Davis tank Dell Jerry Judy blue mini That is to 20 for the Broncos will Anderson Zach Evans and Christian Gonzalez Zay flowers under the light silver Xavier Hutchinson and will Anderson Dan Marino to 299 Rock him Jarrett Steve Young is a buck in here. I like how they're mixing up the teams a little bit with these players these legends Jalen Hyatt and China Oilers goes to the Titans grid our greats Otto Bruce Matthews CJ Stroud legacy chrome rookie Rock him Jarrett and Vom Wetherspoon There's Johnson and Hinden Hooker rookie Jonathan Taylor to 50 and Smith and Rashi Rice Jackson Smith and Jigba mini Seahawks Carter and Charbonne Anthony Richardson under under the lights chrome rookie Rice Young rookie box Number three will love us. This is rookie to 199 Titans Charbonne Arvin Mems and Tank Bigsley. We send base cards unless it stated in the description that we don't and yes Like this one all-card ship Jameer Gibbs. That is rookie mini to 125 Lions Clayton Tune and Trenton Simpson silver Will love us say Quan 299 Kelsey and Kelsey I'm gonna do a dice roll on this Roll a single die. There it is. Alright, so for duals multi-team duals unless it's an auto relic or one-of-one We'll do top one two three bottom four five six or if it's left right. We'll do left one two three right four five six That is four duals go bottom or right in battle and say flowers This is rookie Otto Zach Evans rookie Otto silver That is Rams Z three things fun digs Jameer Gibbs Yeah, you bet That's right Dan Hardy Bob Lilly there's fridge first Carter as a dolphin Quentin Johnson and K. Sean booty Miles Murphy your rookie to 249 He's John Robinson prize prospects rookie Jordan Addison is rookie mini Bryce Young When slow Anthony Richardson rookie Colts Shawn Tucker blue Chrome rookie That is to 35 Our locker Tank Dell Generations blue one of 25 to Marcus where Micah Parsons Some Cowboys Andre read Evans Dolphins 100 Jersey Otto Jason Taylor and our key Nice mix of rookies and legends knows Jalen Hyatt three boxes to go McChubb yellow to 150 will Anderson Orange Chrome to 149 Anthony Richardson rookie DK Metcalfe mini Tank Dell Tank Bigsby rookie silver Zach Evans Perty orange to 199 Xavier Hutchinson and will Anderson this is Ravens for down greats Otto Trent Dilfer I'm not sure the last time I pulled a Trent Dilfer Otto Maybe never Jonathan Mingo rookie Chrome Jalen Hyatt rock him Jarrett and von Witherspoon for the ages green to 100 Russell Wilson as a seahawk Johnson and Hinden Hooker Tyree Wilson Orange many to 125 Watts duals duals go bottom Jay Brown Great Carter and Zach Charbonnet Rock him Jarrett rookie to 299 Anthony Richardson prize prospects rookie price young rookie Giants 100 rookie dual Jersey Otto red Jalen Hyatt will lavish prize prospects Jackson Smith and Jake Bell rookie Smith Tim Brown Stray hand Tanner McKee right two boxes left LT to 299 Rookies are in the middle of that one our chase Cooper cup many to 125 orange champ Bailey Jordan Addison and Quentin Johnston rice young legacy rookie silver TV on wicks and Nolan Smith Christian Gonzalez Rookie green to 100 Anthony Richardson rookie 2199 rookie Otto orange tank Bigsby his Jags Quentin Johnston legacy Chrome What's up, Yogi? How you doing Mike Dicca? Will Anderson and Zach Evans Rock him Jarrett rookie mini LT and Echler Anthony Richardson Cam Smith rookie Chrome Christian guns all those and Tank Dell. Oh, are you nice? Yeah, it's not bad at all like the base design seems a cool inserts good mix of rookies and legends There's Marcus Allen blast from the past 25 Raiders Jalen Hyatt Zach Evans another 400 points of your random to all Miles Murphy Say flowers Jamir Gibbs rookie Jordan battle orange Drake London to 199 Fonte Adams No force just posted more breakers the light tops chrome breakers the light On the fly on the late and to channel. He is breaking live from the national Sean Watson reds 299 Harry Wilson Joe burrow orange mini to 125 nice Bengals color match CJ Stroud rookie Jaren Hall Hey, Sean booty rookie silver. I know Washington 249 Brett Farr of orange John Robinson rookie and Joey Porter jr. That is Sean Tucker rookie out of silver that is bucks Zay flowers under the lights That is to 149 Cedric Tillman a miles Murphy come on Tana Marvin Memms and Tank Bigsby George Kittle Yellow to 150 Jordan Addison prize prospects Trenton Simpson Kyla Murray bronze mini set All the Kincaid and Will Leviss Dak under the lights Jordan battle Zay flowers Justin Jefferson orange one of 199 Mr. Mayor Gibbs Two packs to go the recap at the end is Chargers to 100 under the lights rookie Otto bronze Quentin Johnston go to Chargers Johnston and K. Sean booty Venturi Jordan Addison on the back All right, you just a minute here. We'll do a random first for these panini points We have two points cards top two spots will each get one. I can see number two points Paste 32. All right. Here we go again top two spots will each get 400 panini points for randomized four times. Good luck One two three four jets and Niners Each get 400 points Do a recap autos Quentin Johnston under the lights Chargers 100 Sean Tucker rookie bucks Tank Bigsby rookie Jags Trent Delford Ravens Zack Evans rookie Rams Bruce Matthews Oilers that goes to the Titans Tank Dell Texans that one was to 100 Relicados we had Giants rookie dual Jersey Otto red Jalen Hyatt that is to 100 dolphins Jersey Otto Jason Taylor the 100 and Giants rookie Jersey Otto To 249 Jalen Hyatt That'll do it for the break. Thank you everybody number three is up next


Can you guys see me now? I only see 1 person in the chat room. So I'm not sure if anybody's on. We were having some technical difficulties. A 1 still trying to get on screen. And somehow I was not able to get on till just now. So if anybody is in the chat room or if John can let me know if you see me. I'm not getting a response. I don't know if that's because no 1 can see me or because nobody is. Check in. So yeah, it looks like we may have. I'm not sure what the problem is, but I don't know if you can hear me or not. All right. Well, it doesn't look like we have an audience since you can't get on. I could sit here and talk to myself. But oh, there's June. Hi, June. We're having some technical difficulties. So we're not sure if we're going to be able to go forward today or not. Oh, there's Kathy. Okay. There's a couple of people coming in. A 1 is not able to log on if you guys haven't been listening. So we're waiting for her. But I don't mind going forward alone. As long as we've got some viewers. It's a little strange talking to myself. But okay. Okay. So anyone says to go ahead and go forward. So let's do it. So we're here to wrap up our Kenya adventure. Kenya was, unlike all of our adventures, quite interesting. You know, I never know when I set these up. If if they're going to work or not, I get nervous with each 1 that we're not going to have any any success. But we had A significant amount of success, which I'll tell you about in a little bit. And I also kind of want to talk about, I think We're now we've now finished our fourth tour. So that's 60 notables that we've been working on and four different nations. And what would that be? That'd be 12 12 weeks. So that's that's Three months that we've been doing this. So We're we're getting at a point now where I'm beginning to pick up with some patterns and seeing what's working. What's not working and then also Noticing the significant Differences between the four countries. There's been a lot of We we learn a lot of things with each country and some of that gets transferred over to the next country. But a lot of it we're starting fresh because it's different types of records different type of culture different type of values that the culture has towards Not only genealogy, but record keeping in general Family units Naming patterns, all that kind of stuff. So we'll talk about a little bit about that today. Going back to our previous three countries. We did India Argentina and Ukraine And I'm happy to note that people are still working on those three countries and the profiles that we had left and completed we have Somebody who I have not been able to identify yet has gone back and done some really solid Biographies, which is good the three weeks For 15 Notables plus all their families. We've had anywhere from a hundred to four hundred Family members added to each of those 15 notables. That's a lot of profiles and three weeks is not a whole lot of time to not only connect but also Work on the biographies get the sources all of that stuff. So I'm glad to see that there are individuals that are still going back and working on adding family members and More importantly getting some really nice bios up if you go back and read any of the Bios for the notables of the last three countries Somebody's done a really good job and and that's and that's good because it's you know, it's nice to have all the factual stuff up there, but it's even better if Visitors can go and actually learn something and and you know, enjoy their visit rather than just getting the The facts and figures that we bore our family with with as genealogists so often I see Thomas and Christina both check in that's good So so again the the previous three countries were we're still doing good on now. We're in Kenya So what's interesting about Kenya Kenya was A British colony for some 50 years or so in the in the 20th century early 20th century they gained their independence in the early 60s and They have had Five presidents now Four of those presidents were among our notables one of those was The fifth one was actually the son of one of our notables. So he's indirectly one of our notables. So all five of the presidents were We're on our list in either directly or indirectly the The one thing that stands out to me first off with with all of these countries They don't Know as much about their leaders as we do about ours We know some very intimate details about our presidents and governors and senators Including their family members in Kenya for example, and we found this also with To a degree in India Not so much in Ukraine, but we did it with and or Argentina, but with India we did the People don't know about their leaders or their families and when I'm reading newspaper articles about the for example the newly elected President of Kenya a lot of these articles Are it's almost like investigative journalism they say we think he may have five children or he may have four children We think his wife's name was this or Very very they're very unsure and it just doesn't seem to be something that That the powers that be want one out I compared it when we were doing Ukraine to the Soviet Union Ukraine is much more open, but when they were part of the Soviet Union, it was the same thing We don't know much about Vladimir Putin's family. If anything at all Particularly compared to our own president's family. So that's a good example of a culture that Either doesn't see a need to share that information or actually has a desire to hide that information. So So when we're doing genealogy and we're doing research, it's That's one of the big challenges is that that information isn't part of the public record These people are out there, but Even just finding a newspaper article that says who the president's children are is not an easy task But we overcame that and that's the thing that's amazing with this with this Project that we're doing the members that have been working on this Do an outstanding job of finding out of the ordinary resources Sharing them and then using those resources to put a family together We start typically to go through a little bit of the process We typically start with wiki tree and just see what's out there, you know on the on the most obvious site What is a list for family members doesn't list the spouse doesn't list the children doesn't list the parents a lot of times We can get that there The second thing is just a Google search and see what comes up online biographies Now Kenya is interesting because they seem to have a very active online community There are a lot of blogs a lot of private websites that we were able to find that talk about the various people that we were Researching and they often have information that the Newspapers the more more public things don't have now we've got away the legitimacy of those those comments I found for the first time of the four countries. We've done Kenya seem to be very big into conspiracy theories and When talking about their leaders in particular People going on saying this is what the government wants you to believe but this isn't true. Here's the true story Somehow I know what the truth is even though nobody else does Not a whole lot unlike some of what we see and some of the media out here in the United States So once we do Google and once we get You know the wiki tree information the basic stuff then we can start doing a deeper search and One of the tricks that we found was rather than googling the notable themselves, which we do do but no But googling the family members Because that's going to take you to a site even if the article is about the the notable It's also going to share information about their family as opposed to their political careers and other things that are going on If you Google the president of Kenya, you're going to get all kinds of information But if you Google his Child's name or his brother's name you're going to get articles that are connected to his family or Maybe not connected to the president himself, but to one of the You know information that's specifically about a relative that maybe has nothing to do with politics and From there, you know, we were able to expand it. So, you know, that's one of the the tricks that we've used the biggest obstacle, I think we've had is that The sources that I've just mentioned tend to give names and Relationships but not much else. So we're not getting a lot of dates and places There may be some places but not so much dates. So we can do some estimated dates when building profiles You can estimate the parents dates, maybe the brothers and sisters dates the children's dates You start going beyond that you start getting into aunts and uncles and great aunts and uncles and second cousins It's difficult to estimate dates with any real accuracy. So the question then becomes Do we do we create a profile or not? if We really have no biographical information and the only date that we can come up with is really an arbitrary Guess so that's that's been one of the challenges that we've had The other thing is a lot of the people That we're reading about are still living or may or may not be living We don't know. We just know their names. So whether they're alive or not. We don't know So that becomes another question is when do we create profiles for living people who are not famous? And when do we not and basically the consensus has been that we do not add Profiles for the living non notable people unless We need to have them there in order to make the link. So we're doing a lot of our work off of wiki tree I know I do mine primarily on ancestry. I put the tree together and once I've got it solidified I didn't go in and add it to wiki tree. So I know by that point whether I'm going to need a Profile for a non-living person and every once in a while. We've had to do a spouse or a child in order to get the in-laws in but we have a lot of Potential profiles out there that we haven't Created individual we haven't actually created profiles for so anyway, so that's just kind of a little bit of the process that we've gone through So let me get Get some facts for you One of the things that we've focused on primarily is making connections and something that I've emphasized in the past sessions is that When we're doing connections is just one way to keep score. It's kind of a fun way to get a number figure, but It's really not the only way to measure success One of the things that I mentioned earlier in the in the session or in this talk was that We want to get biographies written. We want to get sourcing and also there's a number of factors that go into counting Connected profiles that can skew the numbers. So when we start comparing countries to each other it gets a little misleading for example When we were in India, we had 250 new profiles created, but we didn't connect any of those individuals to To to the main wiki tree We had one individual that had 59 relatives that we were able to find but You know, we still weren't able to connect it to the tree on the other hand This time around we had an individual who we only connected to three people only credited three profiles and had her connected I forget exactly the path we took but she had a Husband whose parents I think were on on wiki tree already. So all we had to do is connect them to his parents and She was connected to the tree. So We had that done on day one So it's really again difficult to keep track that way then the other thing is once we connect somebody to the main tree I can no longer keep track of the numbers of new family members because Anybody we connect at that point Anywhere on the tree is going to ultimately be a relative. So we have to stop counting once we make the connection So if we make the connection and then we continue to add more relatives, those people don't get counted The other thing is as I as I would say with the living notables some of these people we have a couple dozen relatives that we did not create profiles for and That technically should be counted as as as connected relatives But because we chose for privacy reasons not to create those profiles that throws the numbers off as well So anyway, let me let me give you some numbers This time around of our 15 Kenyan profiles we were able to connect five of them to the main wiki tree We also created as of this morning We had 182 new profiles that we created of Kenyan Some notables, but mostly non notables. So that's almost at the 200 mark And again, if you count all the people who we didn't create profiles for because they were living or profiles We created after we connected those five living living personalities The number would be well over 200 new profiles. So Considering Kenya's history the lack of records, etc. I think that's not too shabby Let me tell you a little bit about a couple of I'm gonna look here at these comments because I see them coming in But it's a little difficult for me to Read while I'm talking so excuse me just a minute and Let me see if there's anything I want to comment on before we move on And again, it's a little odd not having a second person's voice to Share here, but So a comment on the lack of written records prior prior to Prior to the colonization which again did not occur until the early 1900s, I believe if I'm correct So there is a lot of oral history in Kenya and countries like Kenya very similar to our own Native Americans here in the United States their standards for Accepting oral tradition are different than what there might be in Western culture Here we emphasize it just because your your grandmother told you or your grandfather told you This was the family story doesn't make it true I think in a lot of these other cultures if your grandmother or your grandfather told you the story then it's true and It very well may be so the question then becomes how much weight do we give that in the case of President Kenyatta who was the first president of Kenya his immediate family is Well documented through newspapers and other other recent sources You start to go back further. It's a little it's it's not as documented But he has family oral history that's been passed down through his his native tribe and It's it's considered valid In Kenyan culture, it's it's very well It's it's not written in a document, but it's been passed down from generation to generation and it's considered It's it's considered legitimate now, so how do we handle that my solution for that has been We post it and you post the source you say that this was oral tradition I don't know if it would fly for the pre-1700 profiles, but for the post-1700 profiles I think as long as we stay clearly The source of the information. I think it's valid and in fact, I think it's important that we put that up there because You know to hide that information just because it doesn't meet our Western standards doesn't seem right to me in another case There was a Another one of our notables I'm trying to make sure I get my story straight Grace O'Gott. I think it's how she pronounces her name She was a an author and a politician one of the first women to hold public office in Kenya her brother is Was the ambassador to the United States? No, I'm sorry to the United Nations from Kenya He has Been on one of the other Ancestry websites genealogy websites and has posted his family tree He is listed as the host of that tree. So Apparently comes directly from him and he has listed his grandparents his great-grandparents and his great-great grandparents and Again, he does not Would not have been alive. So he doesn't have first-hand knowledge of that, but he's written it down as Family tradition and I Think if he's gotten that from his grandmother and that was her parents and her grandparents It's probably pretty accurate. So again, we put that in there and Individuals that are researching his tree later down the road can decide for themselves whether they want to count that or not But yeah, that is one of the difficulties we have when we move outside of the Western culture is that The standards for genealogy are maybe not the same as ours Yeah, and here Thomas is given a few comments and all those lines We didn't know it's here real quickly. Yeah Yeah, and Thomas is saying that the the English arrived around the 1880s and that's that's probably true as I'm thinking it through I should have that in front of me, but But yeah, they were probably there as early as the the late 1800s and I believe The Germans were there before that and so it's and the Arabs were there before that It was Zanzibar at one point, which was an Arab trading post So they have a long history of Western contact but the peoples themselves were mostly villagers who Did not keep birth certificates desert ever gets married certificates, etc. In fact when President Kenyatta got married He was married in a tribal ceremony And when he converted to Christianity He was forced to get remarried because his wife became pregnant and they wanted to The Christian church didn't think the tribal the tribal ceremony was valid So he had to have a second marriage in order to make the child legitimate under the Catholic churches What he was that the English and Anglican Church of Scotland that he was with so You know even that recently there was still They were still not using Western standards for recording things Let's see what I want to also go over here We also had the other the first two that we connected Joy Adamson was the author of Born Free That was one of my grandmother's favorite movies when I was growing up. We watched that multiple times. I still remembered the song She was connected through one of her husband. She was the first she was connected on day one She had I think three husbands and one of them had some I don't think they were in a certain nobility, but they were prominent People back in in Europe and so he was pretty easy. They were already on wiki tree somebody just hadn't quite made the connection that You know connected Joy Adamson, but we had that done on day one on day two Daphne Sheldrick who was also of a European background She was a conservationist worked primarily with elephants. She was connected on day two. So that was We were off to a really pretty good start and then we connected Lupita Nyong'o the actress the Academy Award-winning actress She was actually born in Mexico, but her parents were from Kenya. They were there on diplomatic for diplomatic reasons and Her family is all in Kenya But we were also able to connect her she has a number of relatives that have moved to the United States So we were able to make that connection as well And then President Kenyatta and Grace a got where the the remaining two Something that I Well, let's see. Um, I Found kind of a pattern in our process here and something I don't know how many people if anybody that's listening right now is new or has chosen not to participate in This the 15 nations global tour. I think it's very intimidating to a lot of people When they hear Kenyan genealogy, they don't know anything about it and they maybe turn to turn away We get a lot of comments for people who are really enthusiastic and supportive of the project But when it comes down to it, there's only a handful of people that are actually doing the work Which is fine because we're we're doing an amazing job But I'd like to see more people get involved and one of the things I want to say to anybody that's thinking about it or Feeling intimidated by it There's a couple of things first off. None of us know what we're getting into when we start When we started with Kenya You know who who In America other than maybe People from Kenya know anything about Kenyan genealogy. It's not something that is taught or focused here And so we're really starting from scratch and we put our heads together and we figure it out the first week Each time the first week has been a little bit discouraging for me I think I don't know how we're gonna get anything where we're We had a couple, you know easy pickings on this one the first two on day one and two and then things just kind of stagnated and we kind of fumbled around for several days and then we started getting some breaks and we started finding some newspaper articles and finding some family members as I mentioned the Grace of God's brother was the American ambassador well He moved or the ambassador to the United Nations in America when he left that position. He stayed in America He married an American woman However, she was of Italian descent and she came from a really large family I think there were something in her father's family something like 10 children that were all American born But they all married Italians also and just one spouse after the other we were tracing back to Italy back to Italy We finally found one that we were able to trace back to Czechoslovakia That didn't do us much good either and then finally we found one who had Long-time American roots and we traced her back and we traced her back And we found a great great great grandfather who was on wiki tree already But We couldn't find the evidence on ancestry calm Somebody's made the connection several people have made the connection, but nobody had the source So we were at a standstill with that we found another line that went back just as far But then ended up in in Ireland And we weren't able to get the records there another line went to Cuba so It was just one dead end after another and then finally we found one that went back And even though we didn't have solid proof we had enough circumstantial evidence the families lived in the same area that the rights size they had They were next they lived on farms next door to each other so there was enough evidence based on What we what we had that we'd made that connection, but that was week two Most of that was in week two we started putting things together week two we got very Enthusiastic after being discouraged week one because things were falling into place and we started making connections and we got number three connected number four connected and I found that same pattern with the previous three countries that it seemed like week one was really a struggle week two Was really rewarding and then came week three where it seemed like we'd started to exhaust all of our resources and Things started slowing down again, and we started making fewer connections But that was okay because that also gave us time to go back and solidify some things fine tune some things Work on some biographies make sure our sources were in order. So that worked out fine and then as far as Making our fifth connection that that occurred last night And it was in consultation with a couple individuals Who'd been working on the tree that was grace of God's family with you with the ambassador and We finally made the connection We were we were trying really hard to get it done by Monday so that we could announce it here and we we did it So that's a little bit of the pattern. So again, if you're brand new and you're not sure if this is something for you Just remember that we're all facing that same thing in the beginning and You know, it's it's fine if you just stick with it. The other thing I'll say is if you can't If you can't make the connections if that's too difficult, you're not sure what to do Looks like my my camera is off here, but okay, um, if you can't make the connection Work on biographies Help us with some cleanup a lot of times. We're in such a rush We get a lot of facts listed on the profile, but they're a little bit disjointed going and writing it into a narrative form You know, there's a lot of things that You know that we can do to To work on these profiles besides actually doing research So if you're finding the research is too hard, that doesn't mean there isn't still in fact In fact, not just a place for you, but actually a need for you because those of us that are doing the research Aren't having time to do the biographies and and putting all that together and and so If you just want to go in and make things look good, that's fine You can also go back to the previous three countries and work on those there's You're not you're not stuck with being in the country where we are So anyway, um I think that's enough for kenya So if you're ready, I will share with you Our next stop for our next stop we're going back to the americas We are going to take a trip to the caribbean And we will be visiting the nation of Haiti I think um, Haiti is going to be a pretty interesting Visit, um, I've Been through we picked the 15 individuals And um, I think there's going to be some really interesting stories that we uncover Um, I think we have a good chance of making some connections based on the little bit of Research that I found but even if we don't make the connections I think the stories that we're going to uncover are going to be really Really pretty intriguing now. I'm going to see if I can Pull up my screen. This is new to me Uh, let's see Give me just one second here Okay Okay, and um This is the wrong page, but if you'll give me a second here, I'm going to go back to Um, I'm going to find you the kenya site so you can see what we're looking at here I'm sorry the Haiti site Okay, and just so you know, I cannot see um the screen and Follow the chat at the same time. So if you have any questions feel free to post them Uh, but I won't be able to see them till the end. Um, okay So here's our list of 15 Haitian notables. Number one is king Henry the first I don't know how many of you know this but, um briefly after, um, Haiti Um Haiti had a revolution against the Spaniards that was led by the slaves And um, it is the only nation I believe in the world, but at least in the Americas that was founded by, um Slaves who revolted it was taken back From the Europeans and uh during that early process they had a single king And his name was king Henry the first And he is our first notable It'll be interesting to see being that he was a monarch. He was a slave who became a king, which is The class that kind of rags to riches story. Again, that's going to be a fascinating one to read about But, um, it'll be interesting to see being that he was a monarch how well documented his family is Um, and I'm going to really screw up some of these names because they're in French and I don't speak any French Um, so please bear with me as I mangled them as I've done with the previous four countries also I'm remaddling Like Chenius You can read it and She was, um She was the mistress of a Haitian president And then um After she was done with him became the mistress of a second Haitian president. She apparently had Extreme sway over both presidencies and she is known, um As the most powerful woman in Haitian history Um, she basically ruled the country through her relationships. Excuse me I'm sorry about that. Um She, um Yeah, so she ruled, um, you know kind of indirectly, um over the country for a while I have just uh, not not directly but through her influence. So that's again going to be an interesting, um individual to read about Um Oswald Durand is a poet. He is considered today to be Haiti's national poet. Um Don't know much about him. Again, I've said this with the previous, um Countries, I don't do a lot of research on these people. I basically take a look at their Wikipedia pages um, I do some research into, um How famous they are in the country. They need to meet a few other criteria like not having a um Uh Well-built tree already on wiki tree Something as a side note one thing that I will say almost all of these individuals Have wiki tree pages already Um, somebody went through and created a whole bunch of Haitian profiles and that's great. However, um Almost none of them have any family connections. No spouses Parents children, etc. So even though I didn't create most of these profiles Um, they were, um created by somebody else, but there's still basically, um undeveloped profiles Most of them had been orphaned. So I'm not sure. Um, I didn't go back and do the research to figure out who created them, but um It saved me a lot of work this time. So I appreciate whoever did that um and tenor firman an anthropologist um during his career an individual from france, I believe wrote a book on the superiority of the white race over the black race and firman became famous because he wrote a book countering that Explaining how all races are basically created equal And uh, that color or um racial background has nothing to do with a person's Value or abilities. So, um, he became famous For that For that document Cincinnati's Leconte Okay, Cincinnati's Leconte was the 19th president of Haiti. Um, yes a few interesting things in his story, but I didn't pick him for his Uh for his own career because of all the presidents of Haiti. His is not necessarily anything spectacular, but this is the anniversary, I believe it's the 101st anniversary coming up of the titanic and um Cincinnati's Leconte had a nephew Whose family was the only african-american family aboard the titanic Um, his nephew was killed his nephew's wife and two daughters survived um I was not aware that there were any african-american families on the titanic and um in speaking with the titanic project, um, we I was informed that there were actually titanic survivors from all over the world including china, japan, syria, egypt It was the list just went on and on That was fascinating to me. So anyway, we agreed to work with the titanic project Cincinnati's not connected to his nephew. So we're going to have to figure out who his siblings were and who was the father of The titanic survivor whose name I don't have in front of me But we'll get that out there But um, ideally we can connect not only a Haitian notable But also a titanic survivor in the same in the same breath, so Anyway, that that's going to be an interesting one. Um, constantine enriquez He is the first black athlete to win an olympic gold medal. He was a rugby player He, um later introduced The sport to Haiti um Didn't find a lot of information about him as important of a person as he was So it'll be interesting to see what we can find out about him But again very very first african-american or Black individual to win an olympic gold gold medal I should say black because as opposed to african-american because that includes africans themselves Um, hector hippolite Grandmaster of Haitian art don't know a lot about him. Um, but he is one of Haitia's Haiti's top artist This one is a fascinating story. Fauston E. Workus. He was a marine. He was stationed in Haiti Prior to world war two, I believe He met the queen of one of their islands And the queen made him king And for three years he served as king of this island At the end of the three years the marines called him back. So he resigned as king went back to his homeland and um The rest is history, but for three years he was the king of this island off the coast of Haiti So again, that's gonna be it's gonna be an interesting story to uncover The next one is a not-so-nice man Papa doc douvallier I was very familiar with him when I was in In high school and college. He was a Basically a dictator a very brutal dictator I included him because I think he probably had more influence over the country of Haiti than just about anyone else Even though it was not necessarily positive. His son baby doc took over after him and Was comparably comparably brutal Don't know much else about that family, but They they Played a major role for about I think over 30 years they were in office. So I think it's an important one to include even though he's not such a beloved figure Jacques Romain Again, don't know much about him. He was an author. He was a marxist author But considered one of the leading literary figures in of Haitian eight of Haiti Dr. Yvonne Sylvain. She was the first female physician in Haiti don't know much about her as well, but um, that's a that's a pretty, um Honorable accomplishment she had there. Um max Bivouar, I'm going to say max Bivouar was Called the pope of voodoo. He was a Biologist PhD Who became the head priest of the voodoo religion? and Try to kind of bring it into the mainstream Another interesting story to be heard there. Ariel Henry is the current prime minister of Haiti now, I'm going to jump ahead and then come back to Ariel Henry Jovenel moise Again, I'm hopefully I'm pronouncing that. Um, maybe moise moise moise. Anyway, he was the president Previously, he was assassinated back in 2021. That was pretty big in the news. So some of you may remember that He was assassinated. His wife was shot and flown to florida for surgery And um, they were shot in their home It was a big investigation as to how people got into their home when there was security, etc Some people think Ariel Henry had something to do with it. Um, since the assassination of the president Haiti has not had a president And um, the prime minister is not elected. He was appointed. So there is currently no elected government in Haiti Um, simply this, um appointed prime minister and his team of people um That's a bit of an issue there. Haiti is going through a lot of turmoil right now And uh, this guy is kind of in the in at the head of it. So, um Again some interesting stories, um With what's going on currently as well as in the past and then um, perhaps the most famous Haitian in america at least Why cleft gene used to be a member of the fugees? Um He, uh Tried to run for president of Haiti But uh, was not allowed to because they said he didn't meet the residency restrictions Uh, he is one of the few I generally don't put living people on here other than Uh, the prime minister But every once in a while I throw in one just because I think they're they're important figures. So there's our 15 um I will have this posted by uh tomorrow In the meantime if you would like to go to the website you can, um Go to any of our previous Nations and just change the nation out for Haiti so you can go to the kenya website And up in your address bar just replace kenya with Haiti and it'll take you there Otherwise you can wait till tomorrow and I'll have it posted on g2g and in discord um Thomas has offered to put some pronunciations and I would really appreciate that because um I read these names. I get familiar with them, but um, I don't hear them said out loud So when I start to pronounce them here it I I'm I'm sure I'm Not doing them justice But yeah, he did that for ukraine and that was terrific. Um, I I I'd like to see Maybe even getting a team of people like that that can start doing that for profiles because it's really helpful For those of us that like to read, um The the profiles of the notables And let's say I'm just going to check here if there's any other comments Yeah, kathy is saying, you know, this is a great way to learn. I have learned so much about Our four nations that we've covered. Um Things that I never knew, you know, we didn't learn about kenya in school Um, and even if we had that was a long time ago So things have changed quite a bit reading the biographies the biographical information reading newspaper articles That are you know covering them as current events You know, we we we use the metaphor of this being a global tour And when you take a tour to other countries, at least if you do like I do some of us Just like to sit on the beach and relax, but I like to get in and learn about the country learn about the the historical places the people and um This is just like a virtual world tour. I'm I'm learning so much about These countries that I that I never knew and it's it's just fascinating and you know We get isolated in our own cultures and we kind of start to think that the whole world is either like us Or um, it's primitive and and behind us Uh, but you know, these countries, you know going back to The 1900s You know, they may not have been as developed in certain ways as the western world but they sure had their own cultures and their politics and their You know, there are ways of doing things that Again, it's just it's really really fascinating.  So it's it really is You know, even if we made no connections on on this project Just the amount that I've been able to learn has really been rewarding Um, so if nobody has any questions, we're almost at five o'clock here Um, well, it's my time. I guess six o'clock eastern time and um Again, I will post this on G2g tomorrow I will post it on discord tomorrow though the link and We'll see what we can do with Haiti if anybody wants to stick around in Kenya Feel free if anybody wants to go back to india ukraine or argentina Feel free and we'll take it from there. Thanks for tuning in everybody


Hi, welcome to On the Waterfront. I'm your host, Mariah Riggs. And this month, I'm really excited to have Zach Campbell, who is the director and founder of Friends of the Frame, as most of you might know, as the original Murrow plant. Moran plant, sorry, totally already messed that up. And we're gonna talk today with Zach about what's been going on down at the plant. I'm sure you guys have seen the work on the bike path and all the changes down there and see what we can look for in the future as the building changes and evolves and becomes more ingrained in the culture of Burlington. Zach, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me here, Mariah. So before we get into the frame, just a little bit about yourself. I heard you're from Vermont, where are you from? I grew up splitting time between Shelburne and Burlington, so greater Burlington area, you could say. Yeah, no, I was here through high school and then moved away after for about 10 years of New York City and Boston. And then was hoping for a long time to make the move back and finally got a job offer and came back in 2018. So I've been back here five years now and loving it, loving in Burlington again. So I guess that kind of leads me a little bit to, because back in 2018, how long have you been involved with? So yeah, funny enough, I actually went to high school with Eric Crockenberg and Tad Cook who were very involved in the last kind of big redevelopment push for the Moran plant. I was living in Boston at the time that that was all unfolding, but was following closely from afar and just thought it was a really awesome project and super cool and remembered those guys from high school. So when I moved back in 2018, it was kind of right after everything had come to pass with new Moran and things not moving forward, but I got to reconnect with Eric and Tad a bit, just kind of, hey, I'm back in town, like. What are you guys up to? And yeah, and so we just kind of hung out a couple of times and then Eric reached out to me a few weeks later, I had taken a job as a construction cost estimator, which is what brought me back to Vermont. Eric reached out a few weeks a month or so later and was kind of saying, hey, right now the city is looking at different demolition proposals for Moran and it would really be a shame to see that place totally go away and not have anything left for people to enjoy or like this iconic thing for Burlington. It'd be really great if we could figure out some way to salvage a piece of it that could then become publicly accessible and he kind of had some ideas about how to do that. And I was like, oh, totally, like I'd love to be involved with this and help put together some sort of alternative to demolition proposal. And that makes sense. So that explains a lot. So as a construction cost estimator, it was like the perfect thing for you to kind of fall into because that's really where they were. Yeah, yeah, so that's what I was doing at the time and I'd gone to, I'd done my master's in architecture so I had like kind of the, I was a little bit of a design nerd and an adaptive reuse nerd. And so I was just super jazzed about that proposal. It was totally the kind of project that I was gravitating toward like on my own and like thinking about like the High Line in New York is a really good example of that kind of typology of a former industrial or infrastructural space becoming this public park in a really site-specific and unique way that can become a destination and a draw. So.  And sort of these urban spaces, you know, and a lot of the brutalist kind of like 50s and 60s stuff and like revamping it for another generation. Yeah, totally. And so it kind of spoke to me in that way and you know, it's also like a, it's fun to get to imagine something and then figure out like, is it feasible and how much would it cost and like could it actually happen? Like that whole part of the process was fun for me. And so Eric and I kind of started with a couple of other folks starting to put something like that together. And at the same time, we kind of caught wind that CEDAO in the city was also exploring this alternative to demolition, mostly because the estimates for demolition were beyond the budget that the city had. So they were trying to get creative. That's what I heard. I heard it was pretty intense and there was some remediation and stuff that they had to do with. Yeah, yeah. I mean, most of those buildings built back then.  Oh yeah. Yeah, the greatest hits of contaminants were all present. All pre-silence spring. So it's real. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so what ended up happening in like 2018 kind of into early 2019 was Eric and I and the city, we each kind of developed a proposal like, you know, 50 to 75% of the way there in a silo. And then we all came together and we were like, let's see what overlaps and is there any sort of, you know, common thing that emerges as that proposal? And that ended up becoming what was known as the frame concept, which stands for fearless relook at Moran Electric is a fun fact. Wait, wait, wait, wait, say that again. This is very interesting. I didn't realize. So yeah, so the, so fearless relook at Moran Electric became the frame proposal. And then I, you know, the name kind of stuck for obvious reasons. Yeah, it fits so well. Yeah. And so that was, that was really my kind of inroads to the project in terms of being involved. And so that was like early 2019. It was approved unanimously by city council to take the, take the budget and say, yes, let's do this, which was awesome. And then, and then I guess that also leads me to, you know, the design has this very monumental kind of iconic look. And so did that come about during that process or when did you guys look at like the design of the actual frame? Yeah, so one of the things I just always loved about the Moran plant when it was the Moran plant was that really iconic like stepped form. Like you just, there's nothing else that really kind of looks like that, that we experience as people on like a day to day basis. And so when you encounter something like this, it immediately kind of like draws you to it or draws, drew me to it. And you know, I think that was something that I was excited about preserving in some way, like that form that you see. And then some other things about the building as well. I mean, it has that giant city of Burlington sign, which is like such a cool kind of source of pride locally, or I saw it as being like, hey, what if that thing could light up and you know, you would see it. And so, you know, I think a lot of the actual design, it was actually derived more by like subtraction of building materials. Yeah, no, well exactly.  And, you know. That's interesting. And I'm sure, you know, I'm sure too is also like looking at like the cost components too and also the design and how, because it's basically almost like this book and monument on sort of the bay on the waterfront. Yeah. And so, you know, having it be a structure that has sort of that iconic shape and stuff is very important.  Yeah, so that was a huge driver obviously because it was a contaminated space, the structure needed shoring and stabilization. And so really like most of the money went toward like all the stuff you have to do to make it safe for people to inhabit. And then, you know. So that's also a really important point, you know, because I hear about this like, oh, you know, Muramplan and what, and I'm like, you understand, like when they took it down, it was a remediation project for the whole city. It was something that actually had to happen. Yes. And so if you could explain that a little bit to our viewers because I think sometimes that's not a part of the conversation. Yeah. That people realized that it was something that really had to be taken care of because it was a potential hazard to people on the waterfront. Oh yeah, big time. And yeah, you know, I mean, the money that was set aside to do something at Muran, which is really kind of like, that's what it said on the ballot. It was like a resolution for the Muran plan, like whatever that meant. And so really that meant either redevelop it with a public-private partnership or probably demolish it. And so when the decision was made to try to reclaim that space and make it publicly accessible and open up a new stretch of Burlington's waterfront for the first time, you know, there are all sorts of legal requirements.  And so really what you see down there now represents the things that had to happen to open up that space, plus like a little bit of extra kind of sprucing up to try to make it inviting in some way. And you know, a common reaction going down there now is people go, oh, this is cool, but like, when are they gonna finish building it? Or what are we gonna do here? And I understand that because what's been done to date really represents kind of like the first phase of this whole frame concept. And that's the cleanup and remediation phase. But, and you know, it was important to get to a place where it could actually become usable. And that's been a lot of the work that I've been involved with, you know, kind of in the short term is trying to figure out ways to introduce new uses or inspire people to use the space in new ways. And I think that's an important point too when talking about the project because what happened, especially in that first phrase, is that it was repurposed for another generation. And it was unusable space that had basically been sitting there, let's be honest, rotting for a couple decades. Yeah, definitely. Which I'm sure you guys experienced. And so that's like a really big part of it. And I think sometimes that's lost in the conversation around it. Yeah. And so, you know, so all right, so when was the actual, you know, and I'm trying to think about it, was it done during the pandemic, most of the remediation? Yeah, so construction started in, it actually started during the pandemic. And then dragged on because of, you know, certain things that came out of the pandemic, like lead times on electrical equipment and, you know, just it sat, it continued to sit kind of mostly done, but still kind of a construction site until like the end of 2022. So it hasn't even been open for a year yet. Which is exciting. Yeah. You know, and also I'm always wonder, I always wonder people who have been down to the bike path or whatever, their experiences being at the space, right? Yeah. And how they've been able to interact with the space. Definitely. And I've spent a lot of time there, especially this summer and I was kind of blown away by like how many different users that space has, you know, there's a lot of that, there's more activity than I would have expected in and around that space and really kind of like all ages and backgrounds and people who are visiting and people who, you know, walk their dog every morning and that's part of their route now. And yeah, some people who just completely stumble upon it and they see this giant red steel structure and they're like, well, what is this thing? Let me go look and, you know, I would be down there and I guess it kind of looked enough like I had a purpose down there. So people would be like, what is that? Like I answered that question a lot. And we actually, one of the things I worked on bringing to the site this summer, we have a big shipping container down there that's been great for storing, you know, some of the things we've been using but we painted it red to match the structure so it was a little like nicer looking but we just put some really great like informational panels on the long side of it. So we've got a whole timeline explaining, you know, what is this, what, why is it looking like this? What's next? And try to answer like a lot of those kind of FAQs that we were getting. Yeah, so when you get the person who just happens to be a passerby, right? Who doesn't know or people from out of town or whatever, then they can get like the whole history. Totally. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It seems like stage one. Yeah, oh, 100% and then as part of that too and kind of part of the direction that I'm hoping the frame can head in terms of, you know, how it's used and who it's used by is, there's a couple of really cool opportunities for engagement down there.  So the Moran plant has always been this place that I think a lot of people have been inspired by or it's kind of brought about these like big crazy ideas which I think are great and so fun to see. And so I wanted to have an opportunity there for people to go and like still have that experience with the space because, you know, there's definitely a lot of people that are like, just tell me what this is. Like, I don't know. But other people, you know, come in there, they're like, oh, I see trees growing up through this and you know, to be able to share those ideas and start really kind of hearing from people on a continual basis is important I think for the future of the space. Yeah, and it's also interesting because it's, you know, not only is it a structure or like a monument on some level, it's kind of a piece of structural art. Oh yeah, definitely.  Yeah. So I focused over the last year really on kind of like three or four major categories of things. I'd say one was like placemaking and activations. So I kind of categorized that as things that are introduced to the site that stay there that people can come and interact with. And a great example of that is the hanging bench swings that actually hang off of the steel structure along the western edge by the lake. We have three of them out there now and there's actually a wheelchair accessible version of that swing coming next month that's like been in the works for a long time, but it's very complicated to design and fabricate a fully ADA swing. But yeah, we'll have those kind of on the western side and those have been a big hit with people and we worked with Generator and the team over there to design and fabricate those. Yeah, Meg was very proud of her work with the swings. Yeah, yeah, no, they were great to work with and they're actually the most recent swing was fabricated by as part of their skills training program that they have. Which is great. I don't know how many ADA compliant swings they get. Yeah, yeah, no, I think this is gonna be like the coolest wheelchair accessible swing ever when it shows up. All right, well done. When it shows up. Bruleys and should have the coolest wheelchair accessible swing. I agree, yeah. That's awesome. So activations is one of them. There's also like some picnic tables and things. Well, that creates active space too. And there's something to be said about a monument where you actually have things that move in it. Where humans are, you know, they have these great, by the Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal, they have these great sea sauce. That have lights. I don't know if you've ever seen them. If you haven't checked them out, they're amazing in your Montreal, go check them out. Next to the Contemporary Art Museum. And at night, they're particularly fun. But, you know, having things that engage and like what you're saying, you know, those shared spaces, those, you know, third places that people can go to that are activative and exciting and it almost then becomes a destination. Yeah, absolutely. And that's totally the goal because, you know, while it is in a great location, it's not the easiest location to get to for everybody. And so really people need a reason to go there, especially like when it's not a beautiful summer day, which like, you know, there's a lot of activity kind of around the space then. But, you know, we want to create opportunities for people to go to the frame because they could have an experience there that they couldn't have somewhere else. And so part of what we've been doing is trying to figure out what is that and how do we make it happen in the near term. Another thing is just, you know, hey, what are some things that make this a nice place to be? So places to sit down. Another thing I worked on is bringing free public Wi-Fi there, like high speed Wi-Fi. So you can bring a laptop. Wait, wait, wait, there's Wi-Fi at the frame? There is. Did you guys hear that? That's really exciting. There, yeah, no, I'm super excited about that. That's very cool. So you can go sit on a swing and look at one of the best views in the state. And be on your Zoom meeting. And work from home? Yes, you can. I love that. Yeah, so that was pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, that's another thing. We worked with a local startup called Wasted that you've probably seen in the orange porta-potties. The very famous porta-potties I saw all summer. Yeah, so we had a couple of their units down there and they were awesome to work with. So, you know, just... That's great. So there's actually, so you guys are really getting functionality down there. Trying to, yeah. Trying to make it a place where people don't just kind of move through it and leave or walk by it and leave. You know, opportunities to linger and be comfortable and have experiences. And so the kind of biggest real attempt at that was we planned a series of outdoor movie nights over this last summer, which... How did that go? Well, trying to do anything outside this past summer was a challenge. So we ended up canceling about half of them, but the worst... I did an outdoor music series. I fully understand. I know, I know you did. And yeah, your music series was happening. Like a few hours before the movies would start. I know, we were kind of in tandem. I know. So we were probably both calling vendors on the same day. We were trying to create these great nights for people. I know. And unfortunately it was biblical deluge, like the entire summer as we all know. Or it would be beautiful and then right as the event was gonna start, the clouds would roll in and then hang out and then the thunder would, you would hear it and say, okay, that's it. And there is a theme in the industry that electrical and water do not mix. I've heard that, yeah. So I will say we had like three events in particular that were great and really kind of showed like a proof of concept of like, oh, people would come and do this and come down here. And we had, you know, lawn games out and we had music playing and there was some food and drinks. So it was really kind of mostly about being on the water on a nice summer evening. And then the movie, it turned out, was kind of like a bonus on top of that. People would come and they were all free. So people would come and stop in and leave and it was great. I mean, it was really cool to see so many folks come out and that mix of kind of like visitors and locals happened very organically. And it's cool too because you kind of get the waterfront park feeling, but you don't have to buy the $60 ticket. Yeah. You know, it's the same kind of thing. You can go do lawn games, you can have fun, you can have a whole experience on the water. It brings people down to the waterfront. Yeah. And that's like another huge piece of what I would like, the role I would love the frame to play kind of within the larger waterfront context. I think, you know, when you talk to somebody about Burlington, a lot of people will say like, oh, it's a college town and it has Church Street and I'm a huge believer that it has a waterfront town. Like it has an amazing world-class waterfront that... I can't argue with that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the... Yeah, right. Exactly.  Sure. Yeah. But, you know, I think, and we've talked about this too, you know, bringing people down to the waterfront to really create a district almost of the city that is a destination year round, I think would be... And that's kind of the hard question. It is. I mean, and we love our waterfront, but we don't have things like hot germ, you know, geothermal springs. Like they do in Iceland. Yeah. So, you know, sometimes getting people down there in January, I know very well to be tough. It is tough. Yeah.  And so really like, I think what's key is figuring out like what are those things? And how do we... Winner opportunities. So actually, that's another thing as I talk to you, you know, I wanna really plug the website, theframevermont.org, if you guys wanna check out what they're doing, make sure you get there. Friends of the Fame, definitely check out theframevermont.org, which is the website. And you know, if you have suggestions for in the winner, because I do think you're right, there's something about how easy it is to bring it up, to get people down to the water in the summer. You don't really have to do much. No. But, you know, in winner, does that beg the question of things like, I know at Highlight, they do like the big burn. Yeah. And like things like that. So things that center around fire, ice sculpture. Yeah. You know, the only other thing I could really think of is, and I don't know if you're even allowed to do this in Burlington, but ice fishing? Ice fishing could be cool. I mean, you know what I'm saying, ways to explore the lake from the frame as like an access point for the public. Yeah, totally. Right? And how do you engage with the lake in the winner? Yeah.  At the lake, you know. But how does Friends of the Frame kind of use that to kind of create a community sense of ownership for six months out of the year when our natural instinct is to sit at home by a warm fire with a hot beverage? Yes. And certainly, you know, being warm is important too. So like, how does that kind of fit in? And I think you touched on some themes that are in my mind a lot. I know like new ways to engage with the lake on the Burlington waterfront is like huge for me, right? Because you go down to Waterfront Park now and there's, you know, there's a lot of different things to do. And you can walk by the lake. You can dock your boat. You can go to the fishing pier. You can sit and have a meal at the boathouse. But what are those kind of, what's the untapped potential that maybe the frame could be a good place for? And so things like, you know, what if it was the best spot to sit and watch a sunset and like really kind of be leisurely about it? And if, and then, you know, coming back to the winter, you know, what does happen in that zone right there?   You know, and they could come down there and utilize that or sign up as a community kind of space. Totally. Where they could bring people down to do those kinds of things. Yeah, I would love to see the frame and really the role of friends of the frame to be as people who kind of facilitate partnerships and use of the space, but aren't really like creative directors, mostly just about, hey, somebody has something they want to do here, let's work with you and help you make that happen because we're kind of experts in like how to do stuff here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like we can facilitate it, but we can't program for you. Yeah. And I know, because I program and I know how hard that is, that's a lot of heavy lifting. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so that's another thing too, I think to talk to everybody who's watching right now. If you have ideas or partnerships or things you want to have the frame do for you and for our community, what you need to do is reach out to theframevt.org. Theframebtv.org. It's BTV. BTV. I missed a letter. That's my fault. That's my fault. We'll put it up on the, oh look, there it is. They have been to work. I'm schooling me. Thank you. Yeah, theframebtv. In which makes more sense.org. And so, you know, here's another one of my weird questions. I always wondered, how did you come up with doing it, Brad? That wasn't me. That was the, so Freeman French Freeman was the architect and design lead on the first phase of the project. And they actually really wasn't involved in like the design development piece of phase one. And so, yeah, that was, that just kind of the frame was red one day and I was like, wow. And it's really grown on me. I'm like, I love the way how it kind of shows up differently at different times of the day, like and from a distance versus up close, you know, far off it's got kind of more of like, you can almost, it almost looks like, you know, rusted steel and there's like really industrial. And then you get up close and it really like pops, especially if the sky is super blue and it's like an amazing contrast. I mean, between green and blue, it's the perfect contrast. And I was actually gonna give you a lot of credit for that. Oh, well, I can't take that credit, but. And somebody with an art background has this state, you know, the red, the red's inspired because it is surrounded by this green and blue. So the red is a contrast to that. And it works really well with that. And it's a lovely, it's a lovely color. I totally agree. I was gonna give you all the credit for that.  Where do you see the frame in 10 years? That's a great question. So I think one of the biggest strengths of the frame and also one of the biggest challenges is that it's incredibly open-ended. And I think the key to kind of making use of that is and why I organized Friends of the Frame in the first place was to act as a facilitator so that that public space and, you know, the sculpture or the literal framework and like under which and around which and in which creativity could unfold so that the space could actually kind of evolve over time, season to season, year to year to reflect really like what the community feels is important or would like to see there. And so, you know, where I hope things go in 10 years is that maybe we have a really good system for doing that kind of in perpetuity. I would like to see another phase or two of improvements to the space. I really mean more kind of at the ground level and landscape-wise, accessibility-wise. Think if you go there now. I became involved with the project as we were kind of figuring out like, how do we make this as accessible as possible with like almost no money left in the initial budget? And so there's sure-pack gravel paths which it's not a permanent solution. It's kind of the best we could do with the funding at the time, but I would love to see something more permanent so that the frame could continue to be more accessible for all people. I would love to see, you know, some additional landscape and vegetation and just kind of the things that kind of round out the whole project. Exactly, yeah. And it seems to like with friends of the frame is what you're trying to do is create sort of this community context. Yes. Where everybody can kind of chip in and make it their own. For sure, 100%. And so that's again, I think really important to stress. As we talk to everybody out there is that, you know, the frame has been given back to the community of Burlington. And so it's now our job to utilize it. And make it as dynamic as we'd want it to be. Like, you know, and the way to do that for us is to talk to Zach and to go to the website and, you know, come up with ideas for it because it really is a really remarkable space. It's been given back to the people of Burlington in a way that actually can be used by the people of Burlington, thank you. And one of the best locations in town. So, you know, again, how do we interact with it? You know, are there groups that want to go down there and do like painting, you know, by the lake? Or, you know, meet as groups down there. I mean, all those things are possible. It's just a matter of people knowing it's actually there and that it is a resource that belongs to them in the city of Burlington. Totally. Which is super exciting. Hey, Zach, thank you so much. Thank you. It was wonderful to have you on the show. It was great to be here. Thank you all for being here. I will see you right back here next month. And thanks again. I'll see you next month. Take care. Bye.