See they're in person or online for the Burlington City Council meeting, but time is 6 15. We're running a little bit a Little bit late on we're gonna begin our agenda this evening with a motion to adopt our agenda And I'll go to Councilor McGee for that. Thank you, President Paul I would move to amend adopt the agenda as follows add to the consent agenda item 6.30 0 communication Philip Peterson EI public works engineer Corey Mims P senior public works engineer re CY 22 street reconstruction program inspection services contract note version 2 of agenda item 7.04 Communication Madeline Sunder associate public works engineer Laura Wheelock P senior public works engineer Reauthorization of sidewalk reconstruction program budget and construction contract per norm Baldwin removed from the agenda item 7.05 Communication acting chief of police John you're at Karen Durfee director of human resources recreation of public information and community engagement coordinator per chief of staff for Dell Thank You councillor McGee. There's a motion to approve with an amendment to our agenda by councillor McGee As there were second to that motion Seconded by councillor Shannon. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none all those in favor of the motion to adopt our agenda as amended, please say aye. All right. Any opposed? Please say no We have our agenda We Normally don't start our meetings at 6 p.m. We usually start them at 7 which allows us time for a work session and we have a work session this evening on redistricting priorities and Oh, I was looking for city attorney Richardson over here But has moved over to the table and is joined by director of planning Megan Tuttle and the senior data analyst for the city Nancy Stetson You have my understanding is a short PowerPoint to kick off the discussion and then Hoping that you might be able to convey to us what you're looking for from this work session from us After the work of the ad hoc committee and their report And we'll leave that to you to sort of get us started and then We can all give our input Thanks. All right. Thank you very much And I do just want to note for all of the counselors that I don't know that you've all met Nancy Stetson Nancy is our senior data and policy analyst in the planning office And she is what has been referred to as the map maker in previous discussions about redistricting So she's here tonight to listen to your feedback and ultimately will be helping us take That feedback and package it into some map options for you as we move forward So as President Paul said tonight, we're here to follow up on previous discussions with the council about the redistricting process For the newer counselors this started with a resolution that the council adopted last summer That kicked off an advisory and ad hoc committee process that worked to solicit some some feedback for you from residents in the community about redistricting priorities and We are now moving into the process of the council giving us your high-level priorities for the beginning of developing maps for your consideration We can talk about this in when we get into the discussion But as we have discussed with redistricting in the previous Conversations part of the reason why we're here is to address changes in population among the city's wards and to ensure that moving forward We have equal representation or as close to equal representation as possible among those voting districts When the ad hoc committee was soliciting public feedback They asked about a number of other criteria that the community felt might be important from the perspective of Establishing the district boundaries and you can see that Attorney Richardson had shared with them both some what he terms must-haves things that are either Constitutionally or at the state level significant in terms of considerations for redistricting and other kind of best practices for redistricting In January the council received a high-level report from that ad hoc committee that summarized what they had heard from the people who had participated in their process Three of the high-level points that they shared with you that there was the most consensus on both in terms of the committee members themselves and the feedback they received was One that Ward 8 is not working in its current configuration There were a number of reasons that people felt this way But I think there was a pretty universal feeling that it's not working in its current arrangement Though the person who was representing Ward 8 on the committee did note that there were not many student participants in this process The second point was that participants are generally not in favor of the district system The wards and districts together are confusing for some and not everybody feels like they're getting the full benefit of having multiple representatives in that system and The third point with with a lot of consensus was that wards should do the best to preserve neighborhoods Maintain compact districts and to provide equal representation The report that you received included some general information that the ad hoc committee heard about I think it was 12 other Criteria that you could consider in the redistricting process, which are just very generally summarized here I think the point is that the committee heard a lot of different opinions about this issue of How many counselors should there be and how many wards should there be? There were a lot of mixed opinions about how that could move forward Ultimately though those two questions are sort of the foundation for what the map maker what Nancy really needs to understand in Terms of priorities from the council in order to start moving forward with developing some mapping alternatives Both the number of counselors and whether we have only wards or wards and districts Kind of together provide the foundation for how we move forward with mapping so we thought for the purpose of tonight's discussion that we would share this list with you of the different types of configurations of these two considerations that have been discussed either in previous conversations with this body or through some of the feedback that the ad hoc committee heard and Kind of use this as a starting point for discussion with all of you about additional thoughts that you might have And whether there are areas within this list that you might see as opportunities for us to move forward with These range from starting with the existing system of wards and districts in the city This could look like making some tweaks to the existing system With the main goal of just better balancing the population It could also look like maintaining the current system But addressing that concern that you heard in the ad hoc committee process that ward 8 isn't working in its current configuration so looking at a different shape or Looking at ward 8 representing a different part of the community One of the specific areas of feedback that the council's resolution asked for was to consider the idea of returning to seven wards and 14 counselors This is a direction you could go in there was Expression of interest about or some feelings of nostalgia about that system in ad hoc committee process You could choose to maintain the number of wards that the council has today maintaining eight wards and thinking about different ways to Arrive at a number of counselors based on maintaining those wards themselves You could alternatively maintain the number of counselors at 12 and think about different ways to divide up the wards In order to arrive at arrive at 12 counselors Or as you've recently discussed in the context of the redistricting that has been happening at the state level You could think about moving to An 11 counselor system that could look like a number of individual Counselor wards or a combination of one and two counselor wards So these are just some ideas to kind of get the conversation going for the council in terms of how These two factors the number of counselors and the number of wards could work together I'll just briefly add You know each of these configurations are Potentials and You know there are either policy or political reasons behind Deciding going one way or the other The key often in reapportionment or redistricting is to come up with a limiting factor and We can draw maps from there. So for example, if you think about either the state or federal Redistricting process they start with fixed numbers. They cannot add senators or Representatives so they start out with a fixed number and that makes their job Then a little bit easier because they start with that fixed number and then simply divide the populations along those terms What I would say is that when we talk about multi member districts while at the state level we do have One member districts and three member districts and two member districts. I would not advise that at the local ward level So if you're going to have a ward or district that has two Counselors it should be a uniform process. It's just not Vermont state level process is a little bit of an anomaly in that respect And it's not really a best practice nor is it been sort of fully tested in the court system And I think at the local level you might run into more More likelihood of a challenge along those lines But that's not to say within that system You can't be creative and to be very clear as well when I say that I'm not talking about the concept of at-large members Or because right now we have you know sort of a modified at-large where we have districts and we have wards So, you know, some of you are only elected by a smaller body of award And some of you are elected by a larger number of people as a district But it's the idea that there's an even distribution of those Those concepts so it isn't as if somebody who lives on King Ave votes for only one Counselor whereas somebody who lives up in the New North End votes for two counselors It's that idea of even evenness in the system and those are just The last thing that I'll say that I forgot to say is that the reason that we started from this point again Is because these are some of the very foundational criteria for helping us just establish a Baseline for what the wards might look like and how many of them there will be There are many other criteria that we then start to layer on in terms of thinking about continuity with existing boundaries Respect for neighborhoods, etc. So Those as you can imagine Flow from this kind of foundational decision about the number of counselors in districts So what you're what you're looking for from us this evening is a discussion about what our priorities are With potentially if there is enough Agreement or enough that we can go that you can move forward on that you would then begin the map making process is that Pretty much correct That's right, and you know, it's not as if you have to come to a single consensus, but obviously the more focused we can Okay Sorry, I apologize. Go ahead. Thank you President Paul I think we're at a moment in this process that is An important one and one that It's it's challenging to know what exactly the administration what staff should do from here the conversations that I've had with a number of the people at the table Suggested me that maybe my hope coming out of tonight is that we In the follow-up to here in some ways I think the council needs to take the next step for us to know how to move forward from here I Given the kind of infinite number of maps that that could be made and I guess one thought that I've heard receptivity from both from a number of different counselors on is that perhaps coming out of tonight we could attempt to See if there is a Resolution that could be written that would Give that would give clarity that a majority of counselors and the mayor support moving forward with drawing maps for one or potentially a couple of these scenarios I'm my hope would be that a resolution could focus on ideally on one Or if there's a really good reason to pursue to we could do that, but I guess that's what I'm hoping the next step Is coming out of here is that we come back Perhaps as soon as the next meeting and I think there is some important slide that we haven't gotten to yet about timeline I think there is some urgency around this To become able to come back at maybe as soon as the next meeting with a resolution that could give some direction to staff about where We go from here. That's absolutely right. Your time is shorter than you you realize which is The timeline that we've put up there and this is with feedback from the Secretary of State's office and so moving sort of Backwards because I think that's helpful you had voted to push back the redistricting from mark this past March Town meeting to the November election which is perfectly fine and Legitimate, but this is the timeline that comes with it which is the Secretary of State has contacted by office to indicate that they Need the language for inclusion on the fall ballot By mid-September for their review printing and then they would be mailing it by the end of September because of the Various obligations that they have to get ballots out in advance. I think it's more than 45 days before the election that they have to have it Ready to go. So that means because this is a charter change That you're pursuing with this reapportionment we have to follow the 17 VSA section 2645 which requires two public meetings and Those public meetings have requirements that they have to occur certain numbers of days before an actual vote The first public meeting must occur 10 days after you've approved a resolution and it's been published By the city clerk for official review and then the second Public meeting can take place anytime after that But it has to take place at no less than 20 days before the election that actually will not be a problem But you know, we're talking about you know in early September late August timeline for those two meetings Which means, you know, you have to have a plan in place, you know, no later than the end of July Maybe there's a small window in early August But that you know the tighter you make those timelines and the harder it is if there are Hiccups or other technical issues in that process Because those two public meetings cannot be waived and the timelines between them have to be followed. So That's when the plan has to be finalized and approved and if you think back from there and I'll turn over to Megan in a second The you know, that's it's now end of April. We're talking May June and part of July. So about 80 days Well, then there's no time like the present, right? Let's let's we're happy to hear responses or feedback that the council has starting from this place words and councillors Okay, thank you. Thanks for the presentation councillor Hightower. Yeah Great, and I'll Maybe speak in such a way that hopefully it starts to narrow it down I don't know if we're gonna get down to one concept tonight But I think it would be really good if we could at least get down to two No more than three and along those lines and can everybody hear me. Okay with the mask great. So I Strongly I'll start with what I dislike and hopefully look around the table and maybe we can eliminate some options together I know that for the house all of us disliked the two-in-one seats So I'm hoping that none of us really want to do that at the council level and we can I see nine options And I guess that move. Yeah that one. Hopefully we can remove that collectively pretty quickly The other one that I really don't like because I think it's just leaning further into what we didn't like about our current system is the Maintain 12 counts 12 counselors with fewer but large award. Oh, nope. Sorry. I'm looking at the wrong one eight wards with three at large counselors. I think that's kind of Increasing the problem that we had now. I don't know that folks will feel better represented with that to counselor model So those are the ones that I think we should eliminate right off the bat my favorites are the Return to seven wards and 14 counselors I think that tries to and I guess generally I think we should try to stick between 10 and 14 counselors I don't think we should have a wide change in how many counselors we currently have And I like the return to seven 14 counselors because we did hear a preference for folks having two representatives And I think that tries to balance not having so many constituents I don't think that counselors should have that many more constituents than state reps So I don't want us to go to that many fewer counselors And then the other one that I like for consistency even though we didn't We kind of missed the opportunity to have a lot to say on the lines of the house maps But is the move to 11 one seat wards consistent with the new house districts? I think that would make it simple for folks for kind of understanding personally that kind of connection with where they live being both Connected to the house and and the city council. So I think that would be good for our constituents So those are my two Favorite and I think that wraps up all the comments that I had as well. So I'll leave it there Thanks counselor. Hi to our counselor Hansen Great. Thanks. And before I dive in before we all dive in are there am I seeing right on the left that there's another like 25 sides to get through or no No, thank you. Those were Slides from the ad hoc committee, okay, okay, great Okay, great. So Yeah, I largely agree with counselor high tower and I think we should I think we should eliminate the existing system ones I haven't heard any Anyone really defending the existing system. I think there's a lot of consensus around moving away from that I Also, I Don't I don't support the 12 counselors with fewer but larger wards. I think As a district counselor, it's already unwieldy and if we were to go to It would be similar sized districts at that point. I think smaller is better and more representative and simpler so I think my Yeah, I the seven wards 14 counselors 12 counselors 12 wards has always been my preferred and I think the 11 member that tried to align with the districts but Subdivided the two members into one members. I think those are probably The three that I would you know most support, but I agree with counselor high tower about eliminating some of the other ones Thanks Thanks counselor Hansen counselor Bergman So first in terms of the timing of the election is that being driven by the Secretary of States and the state ballot printing and is that monetary Things since we would be holding a special election. It would be our election So this is the message I received directly from the Secretary of State which was if we So we have a couple of different options and I'll take the last of your suggestions first which was You know, it is our special election. So we could Basically run it ourselves and since put out separate ballots separate mailings He strongly discouraged that process doesn't mean we have to follow his advice But he strongly discouraged that and cited the fact that there might be ballot confusion created By having two separate mailings for people for ballots You can take that for what it's worth or you can Discard it If we go with the Secretary of States mailing and this is really it's all about the mailing which is to say We don't need the ballots, you know We need it's a much shorter window if we're talking about running an election that is is expressly a ballot Precinct-based election where people are physically coming in. This is all driven by the mailing And so, you know one option is for us to just simply do it ourselves as a separate mailing separate ballot And and adhere to our own timeline The other is and this is what the timeline show is if we follow The Secretary of State that is their timeline. They're driven by their requirements for The federal and state elections to make sure that they get overseas ballots and such in a certain timely manner So they have the deadlines they have to work back from cost of that is The Secretary of State also made clear if there is room on the existing ballot for our item They will put it on there and we will receive no charge if it takes extra paper We pay for the extra paper and we pay for the extra cost that's associated with that mailing So we you know, we don't necessarily the only way we get a deal is if it is if it is something we can sort of Join on to With the existing paper ballot that's going to be complicated of course by the fact that I think there is at least one constitutional amendment that is being put forward so the voters proposition five In the fall election and that may be so I don't know the actual wording or what that's going to look like on the ballot So there there may be less room than and we would normally imagine even on a Officer-based fall election, but that's essentially what the Secretary of State has said I can get further information as we go along But that that's their position and and that's the cost sharing that they've proposed. So thank you We're likely to have a school bond. So that's going to chew up space There might be a citizen initiative that would come on that would chew up space I'd love to understand more the cost You know, I did it's nothing to ignore But it is something to pay attention to and then to to judge the timing of it and perhaps it won't be a Won't be an issue in terms of our deliberations in which case well That's great, but it may be and that is an exceedingly Short time since you you know, it's basically 60 to 70 days of warning that the statute requires and that's where the the whole thing It's pushed back. Let me ask another question of you attorney Richardson Related to the 10% Guideline I want to know if that is a hard line or whether there is a percent or two that may be squeezed out of that my own previous research had a lot more of a Variance there, but I haven't done that research in a while. So the 10% is is sort of seen as a threshold cap 5% is usually where you start to get into The need to justify or have a good reason to open yourself up. So You know, we haven't had my knowledge or research a recent challenge to the that 10% line and Again, this is always driven by you know, the driven by you under you very well know The constitutional obligations of one person one vote and what courts will tolerate for deviation from that I would say that that if you are going above 5% with any of these districts and variations, it just it's a deviation from the sort of Middle the median, you know a district, which is you know, you have this ideal like 500 people per ward. So if you start to go above that 500 number you start to tick up and and you measure these wards in In both comparison to that that median as well as to each other to ensure that that That there isn't that disparity So what what I would say is that you want to get obviously as close to zero as possible But I would it would be my recommendation to keep it closer to 5% If you are deviating Because once you start to go above that courts at least in my research have indicated that you start To now have to show as a city. Why are you having this 5% or greater? Deviation straight out of the gate. So I think that that relates to the other factors the geographic the neighborhood and the like and The growth patterns of this city have been skewed for a little bit and as a result that is causing a trouble with the market making I would like to see More flexibility in that deviation if there can be legitimate nondiscriminatory Rationals for that if there cannot be then you know, then you stay with it But I think that you know that we are a small city small Changes in numbers can be big percentages and they can make a big difference in terms of breaking up neighborhoods and changing word make-ups and You know, I don't believe Personally that we should be a slave to Something if we don't have to be and if we can justify it. So that is my own Positioned here in terms of the deviation I Don't think it should be 20% But I do think that if if justified We could even go above that and I am totally in favor of trying to get as close To perfect as possible without it being the enemy of the good For us I want to have the smallest practical words because I believe that the The representation that we have is enhanced when we can reach out and touch folks It's why I don't like the districts. They're just too too big as a Result, I am not in favor of at-large that goes totally contrary to to that I would like the word Configurations to be as close as possible to what they are now. These are historic. I mean without Dating myself. They're fairly close to when I served here a very long time ago and the other Principle that I have is that I do not want fewer Counselors I am very privileged to not have a full-time job For those of you who do and for anybody out there who is gonna think about representing people Fewer people means that we do not get a chance to do our work Sufficiently it means that we rely on an administration With all due respects the checks and balances Require that we do our own vetting of things and we cannot do that When we have too many things to do so more is better than less in my mind so when I then turn around and look at these I Mean there are options. I am not opposed To that 8 Ward 16 counselor. I would add that I I I would like to see the maps that would include that so instead of three I'm sorry But for I think is a legitimate thing because I sat through the discussion about the giant council being a mess You know 10 years ago. I just disagree. I think that we can use the people To do the work and we can get our work done I don't I there is a lot to do for a small city. We are ambitious and That is What I think Thank you Thanks counselor Bergman before we go to counselor Barlow Just wanted those of you at the table to know that I am getting text messages from people that they can't hear you So which I thought wouldn't happen with our new microphones, but I think it's just a matter of just being close enough Not that you have to be next to it within inches, but a little bit closer Counselor Barlow. Thank you president Paul I've been thinking a lot about this Might be my too loud. I'm like reverberating. I've been thinking a lot about this and It seems to me that one way we might get to a consensus Most quickly would be to decide on the council size as the primary Sort of decision point and out of that we would logically narrow the number of Other of the models that are being presented to us So that's one idea that I support because I do think that I'm also thinking back to 2013 council size was one of those controversial Topics that was made maybe more so by the number of map iterations that we were considering because we were considering councils of 13 12 16 And others so that's one idea that I have Another preference that I have is that I'm just ending my first year as a counselor and I can I can attest to the steepness of the learning curve and I think it's important for Constitutes to have two representatives one that's maybe slightly more Seasoned and if you bring a new counselor on you'll at least have somebody with some council experience So I really prefer the idea of having at least two representatives per wards and having the Alternating year elections like we've historically had So there's always someone who sort of is more More in tune with what's going on and if there's a new counselor that comes aboard They also naturally have someone that they can Talk to and sort of meant you know uses a mentor if they need to so that's one other notion that I had One thing that I'm probably out of step with people on is I've heard and I'm a district counselor And I was against the districts back in 2013 I've only served on districts both in my capacity as a school commissioner and now is a counselor And it is a lot more you have a larger constituency. You get a lot more email from a variety of folks And it's harder to campaign and it can be more expensive to campaign in those So there is sort of an I guess and maybe an equity issue around service there, but um 12 counselors we didn't get to districts because because of the The merits of a district system we got to it because it was a way to get to the number 12 with eight wards and so it's a mathematical construct and I would say that if at the end of our Deliberation on this we decide that we want a 12 Counselor a 12-member counsel and we don't like any of the other options I'm I'm okay personally with staying with with the district model if it's the least worst choice that we have and the other thing I Wanted to say also concur with counselor Bergman that there's a lot of work to do on this council and I also Would not want to see a smaller council. I think 12 is the minimum And I might be open to a Larger number as well And that's all I have great. Thanks counselor Barlow counselor Travers Thank You President Paul I had a follow-up question at counselor Bergman with respect to the timeline here first and hopefully it's a brief question I'm sorry if folks this is clear for them, but it's not clear for me yet So the last time the city voted on redistricting it was on the March Town Meeting Day ballot in March of 2014 And the legislature was able to act Such that next town meeting day in March of 2015 the war district model was in place So can you provide sorry some additional clarity as to why we can't do the same thing this go around? I mean you could certainly put it on a March ballot and so normally redistricting starts at the beginning of the decade and This year it was delayed in part because the census was delayed and the the number of different issues that the council is tackling in this winter and the The change in the way we vote, which is we've adopted more Mailing ballots which pushed the timelines back further Sort of conspired this past winter to push redistricting it just became impossible to imagine us finishing the redistricting in a In a manner that would get it on to the ballot in March. We were just collecting citizen feedback at that point So as far as the the process goes and this is I think to your your question counselor traverse is You know after after the city council votes on it goes to two public meetings You gets put on the ballot if the citizens of Burlington approve that ballot item It then goes to the legislature and moves through like any other charter change However, I will say that you know, especially these kind of redistricting things We can send a very clear message through our elected state representatives that this is important Please do this as quickly as possible and the legislature will move certain charter changes quickly and I think 2014 was a good example in part because it was so late in in the process because that was a that was a different sort of Process that involved a lot of discussion and debate and and deliberation and coming out of Period where there was a lack of consensus about how to progress so In a version of a hypothetical that would push this process back to the March 2023 about town meeting. Yes, we could absolutely do that and then have The legislature approve it in the second half because charter changes Are not subject to the crossover rule in the legislature meaning they can be voted on they can be introduced and voted on In the second half of a legislative session as opposed to other legislation that has to be introduced beginning Apologize from talking too too quickly about these issues. No But at that point, you know, that's that's Completely reasonable to to expect that you could have that and then be ready for that 2024 Election cycle. I think the idea with this in the November ballot is the that the council would would do this put it on November ballot and then it would be ready at the full sort of legislative session Because you never know what other issues come up and can cause delays In the legislative process and it just simply buys us the greatest amount of time There's no way at this point For you to pass something and get it before the voters and get it approved by the legislature So that would be ready for the 2023 election That's the impossibility but I anything from In a public election in November to a public election in in March a town meeting and any special elections that you chose to schedule between now and Between those two points could could easily I could easily foresee it being Resulting in the legislature quickly approving this and it being in place for the 2024 It's just I think in part a question of logistics and expense And how many of these sort of factors? Do you sort of set yourself up for in in the potential for delays? if that Think that answers the general I'm happy to go out further if you'd like more. No that does answer the general question If I may just briefly with respect to the the substance of the matter I agree with the comments that were made by councillor Bergman With respect to keeping boundaries where they are I think those are important criteria that were labeled on the previous slide I understand the interest and the simplicity that would be presented by Perhaps aligning ward boundaries with the house districts But if you overlay the new districts approved by the house with our existing ward map in Burlington It makes some pretty drastic changes. It cuts wards four and seven and half It cuts off the top third of Ward six. It basically combines the rest of Ward six with all of Ward five and Speaking as a Ward five councillor. I do think that the neighborhoods in Ward five Share more affinity with each other than the neighborhoods in in Ward six. It's one of the reasons why Ward's five and six I believe are the only two wards that still have their own independent NPAs at this point and have not combined it would be a pretty drastic change for wards five and six to align with the house districts Just for the notes here and moving forward I also agree that we should have at least two councillors per ward I Think that it's very helpful for me to be able to rely on counselor Shannon previously being on the Ward five NPA steering committee It was helpful to be able to turn to two councillors both former councillor Mason and councillor Shannon for participation in input at our NPAs So I agree with the folks who have made comments councillor Bergman and councillor Barlow and others that we should not be Reducing the size the council and would support our maintaining two representatives per ward if only to share the load of it. Thank you Thanks councillor Travers. There's councillor Shannon. Go ahead, please There we go. How about now? Thank you I Many years ago before I was on the council I lived in Ward three and I worked at the polls and was kind of politically active without being on the council I identified with with my neighbors wanted to support democracy and Considered myself somebody paying attention and I got redistricted from the old north end into the new north end which Made me feel lost honestly I now had a voting place in the new north end and I remember the first election Coming back from work in the dark because it's very dark in March early in the rain and trying to find hunt middle school which seemed to be purposely hidden from me and Not being able to find my polling place. So I went from Working at the polls being actively engaged to feeling completely disenfranchised because I now had to vote in a place that was so Unfamiliar to me. I now consider myself well-versed in every polling place for the record, but I Think it's important for us to You know remember the perspective of voters in this process at the same time We're also considering our own perspectives as sitting at this table and I hear Concerned for the workload, but I also think that there's different ways of looking at that I do agree that having Having two counselors For the ward and district Has it's kind of supportive of managing the workload because we can fall back on one another There are certain issues where one of your two counselors is going to have more expertise or maybe serve on a committee and They step up and take the lead in that constituent work at least this is the way I have Worked in words five and six for many many years. So I think from the workload perspective That has actually been helpful to have multiple counselors representing constituents. What I hear from constituents is Confusion about the district counselors. I Think they are very kind not to tell me they don't like district counselors since I am one I Haven't heard that they have Felt poorly served by their district counselor Granted there are there are more emails, but Only I think I am the only counselor here who actually serves two NPAs and that is a significant increase in workload in certain ways, but I You know having been a ward counselor and having been a district counselor I can't say that there's a remarkable difference in the workload between those those two things Sitting at the table I Think it's a little bit better with 12 than it was with 14 just in terms of It does depend who's at the table But in terms of everybody feeling that they need to Inform their constituents of their vote it takes a lot more time at the table when this body gets too large and the things that I read is that a Body in the somewhere between seven to nine Seven to ten is a better sized deliberative body I do understand that's a debatable point People in South Burlington seem to be feel well-served by having five out-large city counselors so Out of all this to kind of winnow it down to what I think is important. I think that it I actually Disagree with counselor Barlow that the number of counselors should be driving our decisions because I know after the last go Around and drawing dozens of maps myself that part of this is figuring out how to give that cohesion and When I was living in the Old North End and got redistricted to the To the New North End that was a matter of making the numbers work I think in part for how many counselors they wanted to have at the time and I think that we have to look at those maps and Have some flexibility in the number of counselors there isn't a singular magic number and what What does this bring us to in order to bring so bring cohesion? To the ward and I think that is more important to people when they're talking about local city council Issues than it is for legislative issues. It just the neighborhoods don't seem to be as important to people When they're looking at Legislative representation and very important to people when they're looking at council representation So The other issue that came up was people in my section of the Old North End could not possibly get elected to the city council When they were part of a new North End district So I think one test of when we're drawing maps one test is can anybody who's living on the periphery of this Ward get elected because it doesn't have the cohesion that that we need if the answer is no People are gonna feel like they're really in in a very small and outcast part of the of the ward in one part of it I Have heard a desire for a downtown ward and I think in part because they're feeling a little bit that way they're feeling a little bit like they can't get somebody elected who's from the downtown in I Think that they're Ward 3 now and some frustration with that I'd like to at least look at a map that gives a representation of Of a downtown ward to see if that's something that can work I'm open to anywhere from 8 to 12 counselors. I Am open to at large Counselors and I think that that is a conversation That is worth having with the public at least at this point one of the things that I hear Really more than anything with regards to just broad representation issues is people are frustrated that They only they only have two city counselors and other city counselors don't care what they think and At-large counselors is a way for every voter in the city to have more representation because that if you had the example is eight wards and three at large I have I Wouldn't really care what the number of wards is whatever that works out to be six to eight wards and however many at-large counselors But That using that example if you had eight wards with one counselor per ward and you had three At-large counselor counselors that means every constituent has four people to turn to four people That really are obligated to look at their issue from their perspective and to be honest I don't feel that way necessarily about Issues that are outside my ward and I'll give an example and it may be an example that everybody at this table feels The same about in terms of the outcome But when we were talking about the new north end bike lanes what I can tell you is I did not hear from Anybody in the south end who didn't think the new north the north have bike lanes were a good idea In hindsight and in foresight. I thought the bike lanes were a great idea but I Believe that if I had to represent the city at large, I would have to give those with a different opinion there More thought and consideration than I had to as a south end representative And I think that both of those things are important to have that small neighborhood representation But also to have a few people at the table that are looking more globally at issues Looking globally at the good of the city rather than just looking at our very small constituencies And so I would like to at least have that conversation with the public With regards to the districts I did not vote for this current system and I don't favor it But sometimes it's very difficult to come to agreement about anything when it comes to redistricting and If the least change was the thing that managed to get us the votes that were needed to get across the finish line I could live with the existing system simply because It becomes more familiar over time. I was concerned in the beginning that it would be confusing I think it has been confusing But Having said that I Would not necessarily rule it out if others wanted it I Don't think it's anybody's favorite Thank you. Thank you councillor Shannon councillor hightower I just also wanted to note that councillor Jang does have his hand up So sorry, I'm not sure how I can see that Sorry about that. I think because I'm sharing right now. It's hard to see Okay, that no problem councillor Jang my apologies. Please go ahead and we'll and councillor hightower after go ahead Thank you. Thank you Megan. Thank you councillor president Paul I mean, I do believe that yes I am in favor of more city councils than fewer because all the sentiments that were shared here. I completely agree with them But at the same time we also have to remember that this Process is nothing to has nothing to do with the NPAs if you are a city council representing two NPAs It's not the fault about this process has nothing to do with this and also We cannot agree with every single constituents that we have But let's think about the workload and from my perspective we have to prioritize Return to seven word fourteen councillors or maintain eight words with sixteen councillors That's all I wanted to say as my preference. Thank you Okay, thanks councillor Jang councillor hightower. We'll we'll try we started a little bit late We'll try to wrap this up around seven fifteen right and I'll try to make my comments kind of wrap up comments, which is To say that and you're capable of doing this yourself, but I think I want to say it out loud So maybe we can get some agreement on the room as well, which is I feel like most folks I heard say that they wanted to maintain at least 12 councillors and that the house districts didn't work and so on those lines. I'm certainly I think Jack I mean council Hanson I were the ones who said move to the one ward seat I would be okay with removing that for the sake of you all not having to make so many maps But I'm also going to ask some of the other councillors to maybe let go of some of the proposals that they made at the same time I've only heard one person say that we should have at-large councillors Which I think maybe we let that concept go then because it seems like the rest of us either Strongly disliked it or didn't have a preference for it Then I was about to say maybe we get rid of the sixteen councillors But now both councillor Chang and councillor Bergen and I think somebody else said more is fine So I think maybe we we leave that I think on the number of councillors I agree with councillor Shannon I don't think it makes sense to start there I think that maybe if we do the maintain 12 councillors move to 12 wards We can start with that map and if we don't love the lines and we feel like we have to add one to make It feel more cohesive and not have anybody lost that is an option that we have to maybe make that 12 into 13 If we don't love the 12 map, so I Think that's kind of my summary comments, and I think that maybe we keep the other options in mind, but maybe we go with the 7 by 2 8 by 2 and 12 understanding that once we see the lines Maybe we'll want to move it to a different number and that'll at least not be so many maps for the staff to start drawing And I think that's also enough I think if we have more options It'll actually be really hard to get feedback from the public for any of us because rather than hearing Clear winners. I think the problem is when you have so many options than rather than getting Something you just get Random discrepancies choosing one of the winners So I think it actually is better for us in terms of public public feedback if we limit it to fewer options as well Thanks councillor high tower Councillor McGee you haven't spoken yet if you'd like to Thank You President Paul I Largely agree with what councillor high tower just said I do have a strong preference for Maintaining the boundaries as close to what they are today and I Believe that it's important for folks to have multiple representatives. I also Have a strong preference for ensuring that our neighborhoods are kept together as well as others have stated so Chorn to state that thank you Thanks councillor McGee Councillor Hanson to be followed by councillor carpenter actually if you don't mind councillor carpenter hasn't gone yet Go ahead. You have the floor Thanks. I think It is boggling but I think councillor high tower summarized it pretty well in terms of Three options we might consider I've served on a lot of boards a lot and often I don't think bigger is better On the other hand those boards were appointed boards. They were not elected of boards Yeah, and with the elected boards, we've just got to focus it. I think somewhat different. So I like the concept of 1214 16 and and at least that narrows us down some I just saw the comments. I think Councillor Bergman's concept of how much wiggle room I want us to be well within Constitutionality, but when you have existing neighborhoods sometimes That's going to be the trade-off. So I think it will be cautious I think as councillor high tower said the 12-person option with maybe the 13th because we can't round it, right? is is a is a way to go to and I'm adverse to saying this but given that we cannot exercise this before March of 24 We do have the other option of Moving it to March of 23. So thanks councillor carpenter councillor Hanson Yeah, I would agree with everything councillor high tower had said and If I'm the only one that's you know expressing support for 12 single member districts, that's fine We can get rid of that too but I think it's clear that Returning to the seven wards 14 is has potentially the most consensus or they eat in two So and then in terms of timeline, I really think I mean I want to remember how we got here We really wanted to avoid what happened last time, which was this process really dragged out for a very long time and that The amount of time it took did not result in a better outcome or a more popular outcome or better consensus and it also took away Half of that census period between 2010 and 2020 where the numbers were Were off and people didn't have equal representation So the sooner we can get to equal representation and get to a better system than what we have today the better and we've already You know delayed this multiple times. So I really I really would push back against Talking about delaying it I think if we just if we get to a point where we you know can't find a way forward to put this on for November Then yeah, we can look at March, but I really don't think we should plan for that I think we should strive for and plan for Getting this on for November if possible. Thanks. Thanks. Councilor Hanson Mayor Weinberger and then council Shannon and we'll try to wrap up Great, thank you President Paul several Brief substantive points and then a process point I want to echo Councillor Shannon's Statement and memory that the current System was no one's first choice last time either but it was the It was the choice at the end of an extended process. It was the only map that Was ever able to secure a majority vote of this body and then the public and I don't think we should quickly cast aside the possibility that that could happen again Especially given the divergent views we've heard tonight about You know this really wide range of views about what people want to see here. I think It may be that the most achievable political outcome is to make modest Changes to the current system to get us back into alignment and I think we at least have to keep that open as a possibility And in until we see some new consensus around another area I I will I will put myself very firmly in the camp that is against a larger council than the current council I think the one exception to that that I could support would be a a 13th councillor that gets us away from I think a problematic aspect for this council, which is that we can have ties I think we'd better to be an odd-numbered council and so I would be open to that I just is there and I respect the the Suggesting that even more oversight is is needed. I think we have a lot of oversight in this city between our 11 Commission system and 12 councillors for a very small city relative in terms of the number of councillors and so I think respectfully have a different perspective on that than a council bergman the Process point that I want to make is it I just I try to make this beginning But I appreciate the effort by councilor high towered us to summarize this conversation into some kind of consensus that staff could act on I I Appreciate that effort. I think from my perspective I I don't think it is appropriate to put more staff time into dry maps until we see if there's some kind of Consensus that could come in the form of actual motion or resolution From this body. I really think it is it is a mistake I'm opposed to to just start to start drawing maps and the hope that they'll bring us closer to consensus I I don't think it's gonna work work that way So I would hope we could come out of this and work towards some kind of resolution that the city team could work from To move forward beyond this helpful discussion, but one that I don't think there has been a clear consensus established in Thanks mayor councillor Shannon council Bergman, can you hear me? excellent I I Just want to remind people that in terms of the map drawing exercise I think it was it was good for everybody to get out on the table our thoughts generally about where we're headed on All of the various aspects before us But in terms of map map drawing we actually don't have to decide things like the council side Or whether it's wards and districts or wards and at-large For the map drawing exercise The only real question is how many maps You know how many wards do we want there to be and then I think we have also given some guidance as to What's important to us which are that those elements are just the very basic elements of Creating There's terms for all of it continuity Compactness all of that By which these maps would be judged So in terms of I guess maps I I think that's the real question is is what What ward configuration? Possibly can Can yield to a Majority getting behind a particular plan For me I would say Again that it's driven by How compact and contiguous you can make a map and You have to get to the map drawing process in order to know that It's possible that we have very good compactness and continuity with Four wards and then if you start with four wards Then we can decide if we want to subdivide the four wards if there are good places to divide that into eight We did it the opposite way The last time we drew eight wards and then we combined that we paired them up To create the the districts But it could be it could be done either way And I think one of the greatest challenges when it comes to map drawing is figuring out Where the lines are going to be drawn for the new north end to give it the continuity that it that it needs So I actually would kind of like to start with what are What are the boundary? What are the possible boundaries of the new north end? What gives us a Reasonable size there Then we can can we can figure out if that could be cut in half And How would that lay out in the rest of the city? so In terms of maps, I guess that would be a Priority for me because that is the area that I have seen both both as a constituent and Somebody who drew dozens of maps last time. That's the biggest challenge is figuring out how to you know How far down North Avenue can you go before people feel like they're no longer part of the of the new north end and Somewhat disenfranchised if they get redistricted into the new north end Thanks. Thanks councillor Shannon Councillor hi, Tara, and then we'll have to we'll have to wrap up as we're going to be getting towards public forum Great, and I'm actually going to make this a motion with per the request of the mayor, so I Do think I heard that last comment from council Shannon But I do think maybe she's a little bit of a outlier compared to what the rest of the council has asked for So I'm still going to go ahead and ask that the city team produce three city maps one with Seven wards one with eight wards and one with twelve wards Giving particularly attention to trying to keep the new north end distinct from the old north end So that is a motion. Is there a second to that motion? Seconded by councillor Bergman. Is there a discussion on the motion? Councillor Barlow. Yes. I have a question about a twelve member map at those twelve single members Well per Councillor Shannon statement. I think that's up to decide but I would assume we wouldn't have 12 two-member districts, but I heard some focus on wanting to expand to 13 councillors or something like that And I don't like the idea of varied maps. So yes potentially Thank you Anyone a councillor Bergman I don't think it needs to be an amendment But I think that in terms of the attention that all of the criteria and all the things that you heard related To keeping neighborhoods together should also be part of that. I and I We don't need to amend it. I think that you've got that and would appreciate that. Thank you Thanks councillor Bergman. So you're talking about the maintaining boundaries the electability balance the preserving neighborhoods Etc. Okay in particular with it in particular with the boundaries You know trying to keep the neighborhoods together trying to keep wards as closely together people repeated that And I didn't have to beat. I'm sorry. I'm not quite following, but you got my point. I think Count councillor councillor carpenter. It doesn't a clarifying point too. I think we've Concurred that Ward 8 isn't working in it's not really a neighborhood so that Somehow that would mesh into the neighborhoods Thanks councillor carpenter. We haven't really had that conversation I think that was one of also the things that came up in the ad hoc committee was that Ward 8 and its current figure eight configuration Does not work for a lot of people Councillor Barlow I'm sorry. I had one more clarifying question Which is would we constrain ourselves to only these maps or would these form the basis of further discussions which out of which other Maps might arise Not sure if you're asking me that I guess I'll ask councilor Hightower. Yeah, I think I mean at least per the discussion I think you know some folks wanted to see maps and then see how Continuous that was for some of the things some folks wanted to say let's start with 12 and then see if that makes anybody feel excluded I think those were actually both points that council Shannon made so I think let's start with those maps and Then try to narrow it down So we're not trying to get multiple iterations of multiple maps, but I think they're the basis for discussion Which is the reason starting the motion now will hopefully give us more time to have those discussions Councillor Hanson Councillor Hanson. Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm open to this. I guess my only concern is we We've talked about wanting to avoid like getting too divergent with all the maps and I'm just wondering if there's If there's potentially an opportunity over the next two weeks to to get down to one option because That way we could focus in on that one option and draw maps and just listening to the room like I Don't know there's a potential that the seven Mords 14 counselors just has way more support than the other two and if that's true I'd rather just Start working on maps on that then have maps on all three and then be debating Maps and criteria simultaneously Which could end up even though we would lose two weeks at the beginning could end up taking way longer Then just using these two weeks to shrink down to one or two So Councillor Hanson, do you want to make we have a motion that was seconded? Do you want to make an amendment to that motion? Sure? I guess my amendment would be is that we Two weeks from now Or over the next I don't know exactly how to phrase the amendment, but the and I'm looking to the city attorney but I think the idea is that We don't start drawing maps of all three of these right now, but we You know by the next council meeting We either have these three or or less and then direct you all to start drawing maps at that point So I really don't know what the right amendment is, but that's the idea Okay, this is what happens when we do motions and amendments on the floor It is very it is very complicated. I know what you're trying to say Councillor Shannon Sorry, I think it can be hard to know what you really want until you see some of those maps because what you may see is I Mean, I don't know that there's support for for 12 wards. Maybe that's something we want to take off but in terms of whether it's Seven or eight you don't know until you start to try to draw it and figure out how you can You know be inclusive of of neighborhoods, so I would either I would support the current motion for seven eight and twelve though I I don't support a 12 word map Or to do both seven and eight I think doing just the seven word map is going to be too limiting and There's a pretty good chance you won't like what you see there's also so many Different ways to draw the maps the last time around the public had the ability to draw maps you could go on to the website and Access the tools to draw and propose your own maps Is that going to be a possibility this time? Last time that tool was developed by somebody outside of the city And oh yeah, it hasn't been made available. It was part of the state redistricting process But it hasn't been made available for ours Thanks councillor Shannon, so we need to try to figure out where we are We have a motion talking about three You know creating three potential maps. I don't know if that's too many It would certainly get us to a Point where we would have had we would have some Ability to view more than one And three doesn't seem like a large number However, we're now hearing there also and and if we could come to some level of consensus that that would certainly be great I mean I actually have found Having been part of the sister the redistricting the last time that what I'm hearing around the table is actually a fair amount Of consensus you may not think that but for those of us who were here a few years ago There's a whole lot more consensus at this table than there was in the past the But I I I do want to try to honor councillor Hanson's amendment And I'm not really sure how to do that if it would be if it would be best for us to try to do that by coming back to this later this evening or If there's enough direction And we haven't we haven't a motion so we have to vote on the motion So I'm not really sure how to best do this and give councillor Hanson perhaps the time to Put this in in words that can go into a motion I don't know attorney Richardson if you think there would be if you have some suggestions Well, there's a there's a couple of different options you could Make a motion to table if you could just speak into the microphone. Sorry. I'm thank you there's There's the option of simply tabling this motion an amendment until Later on in the meeting if if that's what you'd like to do to sort of give councillor Hanson Some time to think it through You know if that if that wouldn't if that would make sense You know, that's one option the other option is to you know, simply move forward and Either with or without the amendment, but with the understanding or direction that some of the issues that councillor Hanson is Looking to articulate would be taken up by staff regardless of how they the final motion came out Based on the consensus of the council tonight well, there appears to be some desire on a part of the maker and The maker of the amendment to table this so that we can think ideally it would be great if we could move forward this evening with a plan You know and and the more succinct we can make that plan The better I would think for the for our poor map maker who's thinking about making all these maps So if you can just guide guide me a motion We have a motion What would be the correct approach now as a if we were to take if we were to table that? just make a motion to table the motion and amendment until Given that we have a calendar. I mean sorry a agenda to table it until After the council takes up you could put it at the end after 7.06 I'm delivering a agenda So moved second. Thank you a seconded by councillor Hightower all those in favor or any discussion Yeah, just to clarify I'm just tabling the motion because I didn't really I didn't actually make an amendment, but just tabling this item Thanks, right. Thank you for clarifying Any other discussion about the motion to table? Seeing none all those in favor of the motion to table, please say aye I any opposed oh Thank You councillor jing The motion passes so this has been a good conversation and we'll see if we can't Figure that out that would be so we would create a item 7.0 7.07 on the agenda at the end of our deliberative We are thank you. Thank you so much Nancy Megan journey Richardson for For helping us through this process We have the public forum which we are now about five minutes late for Just for it before we begin the public forum a little few items of information There are some people who wish to speak at the public forum who are here in person and there are I believe two people that are online who would also like to speak during the public forum the System that we have on the table in front of us has three lights a green light will shine when you you are to begin speaking a Second yellow light when you have about 30 seconds left and then the last light is red and that will shine when your time is up We just ask that you please complete your comments when the light Indicates that your time is up and of course if you're in the middle of a sentence, please complete the sentence or thought But please try to respect the time limit so that we're giving the same amount of time To everyone in the public forum is moving along As I said, we do have a hybrid system for public forum If you wish to speak and you are online You can go to Burlington vt.gov Slash public forum and there'll be a form that will come up you complete the form and your answers will come into a spreadsheet That I will see as well as the clerk will see and then we can call on you You know when it's time for you when it's your turn to speak As has been our practice Burlington residents will have first priority will go to Burlington residents in con choice first Who have submitted a form in person and if you're interested in speaking and you're here in person the forms are right to my Right your left. I'm terrible with direction And you can fill that in and then just give that to the clerk that is right to my right The and then we'll go to Burlington residents online Then back to non Burlington residents that are here in person and then back to online non Burlington residents Just one other caveat and that is that during public forum It's imperative that we all be mindful of using respectful language Please direct your comments to me as the chair and not to anyone else at this table Please remember that we are very interested in your perspective on policy on city events and concerns that you have But we also would ask that you please not personalize comments and try to remember that there are Families there are children who watch our meeting as part of their commitment to civic engagement And we ask that you please not use Bad language and not use profanity in your remarks Again, we want to hear what you have to say and it's a lot easier for us to listen intently if you speak Respectfully in wood decorum with that said there are Several people who would like to speak who are in conchoice and one of them the first speaker would be Christopher Haisley If you'd like to come forward and now and he will be followed by Todd LaCroix Is this the correct one? Thank you. I got moved to the top of the list, but I appreciate it I just wanted to say I appreciate the discussion here one thing I wanted to say is that as one of the folks interested in redistricting and tried trying trying the map making thanks Gene is that You know some numbers work better than others and right now we have an eight word map Which has about 5,600 people per word if we were to move to a seven word map or return to a seven word map We will be looking at approximately 6,400 people in a word Mathematically the only way to make that work It would be to have wards that would extend down below the railroad tracks on North Avenue Now if you go assume for a moment, we want to keep two wards in the new north end On the seven word map 6,400 people a pop. That's almost 13,000 people The population of the new north end north of the railroad tracks currently today 2020 census data is About 10,800 So with a seven word map the new north end would be short about 2,100 people 2,000 people they'd have to come from somewhere likely the new north or the old north end and under the mapping scenarios that I have Explored That would mean that those two wards from the new north end would potentially extend all the way down the north street and As far east as the Fountain Street I've tried drawing maps from six wards all the way up to 16 single member districts Eight seems to be the one that does the best job of balancing all of the different competing criteria here Because it's like a balloon, you know, you pick one thing and you push it one where it's going to come out somewhere else So it's really trying to find the best fit that recognizes all the different criteria And just trying to find the maximum good for everybody The last point I would make that in the modern area beginning with the 1950 map to present looking at the average the word sizes the Average word side for the past 70 years has been around 5,834 people. Thank you. Thanks very much. Thanks very much Our next speaker is toddler Croy to be followed by Christopher Aaron Felker Good evening Yes, we We're in a really strange world in a strange time You guys seem to start a war with everything including your children you You know the thing that terrifies me most is that you don't care about your children and You're starting a war with nuclear powers and the people who supply our goods to stores And you think everything's gonna be okay, but here's the irony I'm out on the streets for years every day here I've seen the decay going on and here's the irony our children are literally now dying more from gunshots and drug overdoses and our Vets are all traumatized and messed up and also doing the same and yet It seems like we're doing a better job of killing ourselves than the enemy is and Right now you guys are kicking hornets nests with the Russians and the Chinese But you don't seem to care and because Journalism has been dead for a few years and you didn't care doesn't seem you guys are informed about what's really Happening on the streets or internationally You guys are in bubbles and they're about to burst And it's just it's it's it's it's it's it's scary How you don't love your children you don't care about them at all and That you're never going to get through such a crisis if you don't even love your children let alone your enemies and What will happen when the Russians join in killing each other killing us? Along with you killing our children in each other It'll be a bad day in America Thank you very much. Our next speaker is Christopher Aaron Felker to be followed by Someone's gonna need to help me out. It looks as though it's ECH As sure. Thank you so much.  Thank you. Good evening Good evening. So there are a couple of points topics that I wanted to speak about tonight. I'm gonna start off with redistricting I'm gonna try and get this on really fast. So I Do support a downtown ward Burlington had Historically had had a downtown ward that had a united Maple King Street neighborhood urban renewal Removed that from Burlington and it is time for us to consider Reuniting that neighborhood as a form of writing a historic injustice in order to do that I believe I have heard from multiple people that live in the Church Street neighborhoods that they don't feel that they are accurately Represented or or that their voice is not heard by counselors So I absolutely supported downtown ward and I encourage the council to please look into this while you're looking at Excuse me, I think the mic stopped working. I don't know if you move close better. Okay. Yes. Thank you Thank you Last last meeting DPW presented on the Champlain Parkway speaking specifically about how increased budget costs will increase the overall cost of the Project they presented really well and I understood what they were talking about But it made me think if we're currently facing about 200 million dollars for the new VHS project How are these increased costs for building supplies going to increase the overall cost for that? So I really hope that we're starting to look at these numbers and wondering if The same thing is going to happen with this large project looming over us and my last point is regarding the homeless pods I am extremely disappointed in this process on selecting Elmwood Avenue I'm disappointed in That this council doesn't seem to care about how locking the cathedral down When it's not in when we're not holding masses will negatively impact our Catholic community including our Large new American community that rely upon being able to go into the cathedral to pray and worship during the day So Thank you. Thanks for it. Thank you very much our next Our next speaker is Escher Hello counselors mayor. I'm sad to see John's night here.   We do have one from outside burlington. So we'll go to the online there are Three people that have signed up to speak To speak online who are all burlington residents and since there are so few I think it probably um, you don't need to give me hosting responsibilities if Sarah if you can if you can If you can do that, that would be fine. The first speaker is jeffrey dissenna Um, were you able to locate him? Oh, okay, wonderful. We're happy to have you here Thank you all for uh having me and uh, so glad to see that if you could just speak a little closer to the mic So we can hear you. Thank you. Let's see that we're back in person here. This is wonderful. Um, I wanted to take this time tonight actually to speak out against the champlain parkway project Maybe that's a moot point. Sorry. I missed the early part of the meeting and maybe this is already a settled matter But if it is not, um, I know that this council has been very vocal about our sustainability goals and That has gotten me very excited to be part of this community And i'm very excited to be part of a community that takes livable walkable bikeable infrastructure seriously and I see the champlain parkway as Not forwarding those goals. Um, I think that the Decision to end the i-189 connector Where it is was a good decision and now we have an opportunity to use the highway as a beltway And now it's an opportunity to start removing car infrastructure Inside the city and start prioritizing Cycling infrastructure transit infrastructure and until burlington residents have a real option Other than driving most people are going to choose to drive and traffic is going to remain terrible And just adding more car infrastructure will not solve that problem And I think we need to look no further than basically any other city in america to see that traffic doesn't get better with more roads, so We have spent the last seven decades in america Digging ourselves a hole of car dependent infrastructure, and I think it's time to stop digging. So thank you Thank you so much There were two others that were had signed up online The first is robert bristow johnson, and I believe you were able to locate him. Is that correct? Yes, great. Um robert go ahead Hello, um, sorry. I can't be there tonight So I am the bad man Who drew the present eight ward map that is so uh revive And um, I just want to say that what was accomplished by that was that 82 of the city got to stay in the same ward and vote in the same place Of the 18 percent that didn't 13 was the new ward So a lot of people were actually uh fairly satisfied with the bath, but the townies in ward eight Understandably were not because they were They were diluted by a lot of students, and I understand that now I just want to give you some facts real quick Again, what chris hasley said if we go to seven wards the part of the west old north end must Going to either ward four or ward seven net us unavoidable That means people living on blodget or probably or convent square They're going to have to go up to the miller senator vote or up to uh, uh, uh, st. Mark's church and vote If they vote in person If we go to eight wards, then we know a large part of ward one must go into ward two and that cannot be avoided Uh, um, and that's just something that we have to understand that we'd have to pay for um If we do 11 or 12 wards the problem is is that nobody has drawn on a map for that except me I have And there's a problem with when you get to such small wards. It's the denominator That means when you add or subtract a block the percent Deviation is twice as much as if the ward was you know, who was uh six or eight wards And you have the problem of the athletic campus, which was 2,600 people the redstone campus, which is 1,500 people You could put them nicely into a single ward of 11 Awards, but it would be eight ward eight on steroids And then the last thing I'd like to ask is whatever happened to those maps that j. Appleton drew They kind of went into a black hole and disappeared And I think that we have a right to see those maps and to comment on them Have a good evening folks. Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, the last speaker online is jess hyman And uh, I believe we've located jess. Uh, go ahead, please Hello Thank you, president paul city councillors and mayor windberger So i'm jess hyman. I live in ward three And i'm here tonight wearing my my work hat for the fair housing project of cvo And i'd like to speak about the fair housing month proclamation that's on the consent agenda So april's fair housing month and that marks the anniversary of the passage of the fair housing act of 1968 And this act put essential protections against discrimination and harassment and federal law And also requires communities to take steps to undo that historical patterns of segregation and exclusion that were created by federal housing policy And continue to today So and fair housing month is also a time to renew our fight for for safe and stable and affordable homes for everyone And so the good news is we have these laws in state and on the state and federal Books that are intended to protect the right of everyone to have opportunity and choice where they live But the bad news is that despite these laws being on the books people are still being treated unfairly Discrimination has been reported hard to prove and many people put up with that out of fear of retaliation But changes happening communities large and small including grillington are making change and taking a critical look at their zoning and identifying ways to make homes more accessible to more people And so thank you. I think thank you to Mayor wineburger for declaring april fair housing month and the recognition that the vigorous local efforts to combat discrimination and make policy changes to expand housing opportunity are very much needed So I'd encourage everyone who's at city hall tonight to check out the fair housing exhibit in the entryway to learn more about the history and protections of the fair housing act How to get involved in events the rest of this month and throughout the year and how to advocate For everyone in our community to make sure that everyone has access to safe Affordable and accessible and stable homes Thank you so much. Thank you. Yes with that. We will go back to in person Uh non burlington residents and we do have one person who has signed up to speak. That is eric bernstrom Welcome Hi Thank you and thanks for your time My name is eric bergstrom and i'm representing burton snowboards located at 180 and 266 queen city park road in the elm zone in the south end of burlington As a local business employing approximately 350 people here in burlington We are in support of awarding the contract for phase one of the champlain parkway For as long as burton has operated from queen city park road We've been optimistic about the added convenience and benefits the parkway will bring to our employees and customers alike when visiting our campus Being that our customers and employees use many methods of transit to get to our campus The additional two miles of shared use paths improved ada intersections sidewalk ramps and railroad crossings Will all benefit their safety As a certified b corp It's great to see that the plan involves new storm water infrastructure to reduce sediment discharge into lake champlain We look forward to soon getting shovels in the ground for our own approved and permitted storm water project Finally, we have a really exciting project in the works for our campus. We call the hub which evolves our 266 queen city park road building Into a multi-use project complete with our flagship store a tour Of craigs our prototype facility talent skate park a performing arts center in a food hall It'll be a fun exciting place to visit that will attract locals and visitors alike We've done the work to know through city and act 250 permitting that our hub works with or without the parkway But getting to our hub will be safer more direct environmentally sensitive Uh and a better experience with the parkway in place Thank you Thank you very much eric I don't believe that there are any other Don't have anyone else in the queue to speak during public forum Um, there is anyone here who wants to you'll Wait just a second Doesn't appear to be the case So with that we will close the public forum at a few minutes before eight o'clock And continue with our agenda before we do that I was remiss in The presentation that we got on redistricting attorney richards and we should probably be adding that to the agenda item And with that So I I assume that would that'll be That's a fairly I'm I'm wondering if we should be adding that and just simply On you know just a motion to accept the communication and place it on file if you feel that Would be wise You mean with the initial work section session. Yes Yes, you can take a make a motion to place it on file The tabling of the the pending motion doesn't have I mean it was passed by unanimous consent So it carries more than a two-third so you don't have to further modify the agenda For that right no, I guess what I'm asking is that the power point that you that you gave That should be part of the public record in that on that agenda item. So with that Would ask that that power point be posted and then if I could just have someone make a motion To accept the communication and place it on file So moved Thank you, councilor traver seconded by councilor McGee all those in favor of the motion to accept the communication and place it on file Please say I Any opposed? Thank you very much for that housekeeping item The next item on our agenda after We will have to go back is the presentation regarding net zero energy roadmap That's item 3.01 And we have Several people who are here from burlington electric I'll hand the floor over to Burlington electric general manager springer And my understanding is our our our conversation was that you'll need about 10 to 15 minutes For the presentation and then there will be time for questions from counselors Thank you very much. Please go ahead. Thank you just to be able to present. I just need to be promoted again Just a moment while I load the slides Okay Okay Good evening counselors. Thank you so much for having us this evening. I'm joined by my colleagues like canteric and emily sevens wheelock And we're here To present the annual net zero energy roadmap update Um, this is something we've been doing every year Since we launched the roadmap, which has as just a reminder 2018 as its baseline year And we launched it in 2019 Um, I think everybody here is familiar with burlington electric So I won't linger on this slide here and I'll jump right to just a reminder about the 2030 vision for burlington, which is really to build on the accomplishment of being 100 renewable when it comes to our electricity generation and expand that accomplishment To cover the thermal which is is heating in particular and ground transportation sectors And the council adopted the roadmap in september of 2019 It's been a partnership between all the city departments a variety of public and private organizations and obviously with the community So for this evening Um, this is new data that we have from our partner synapse energy economics out of cambridge They helped us with the first roadmap iteration and they've helped us with updating the data Every year As you can see in terms of fossil fuel use, we had a significant decline between 2018 and 2020 We had mentioned last year that the 2020 Data was going to be heavily impacted because of the pandemic in terms of particularly vehicle miles traveled being lower We thought there was some risk of having some type of emissions rebound In 2021 that did occur, but it was relatively mild in particular compared to what happened elsewhere in the country And so I'll touch on that a little bit more in a moment Here's a little bit of a sector breakdown We look at natural gas use in buildings and then we look at gasoline and diesel use for transportation purposes As you can see gasoline and diesel use is actually still Lower than the roadmap pace would have us Again, because there has not been a full resumption of driving Patterns the way that they existed previous to the pandemic Although as you can see here, there was a bounce back a rebound effect that happened in 2021 With natural gas use in buildings, you can see we've had a trajectory that's generally been downward But is not on the exact pace that the roadmap would have us on As you can see by the dotted line compared to the solid line In terms of takeaways just from the data And some more specifics So I mentioned Burlington's emissions were up One and a half percent in the thermal and ground transportation sectors in 2021 Nationally there was about a 6.2 percent emissions increase in 2021 so Burlington did better than the u.s. As a whole When you look at it that way Importantly our emissions are still down 12 and a half percent from 2018 when we started tracking for the roadmap So we have consolidated some of that progress that we have made We didn't lose all of it during the rebound in 2021 Natural gas use is down about 1 percent in Burlington in 2021 compared to 2020 I should mention that's not whether normalized data Which means that if we had a very cold winter For example that that usage data for natural gas might climb back up even if everything else was equal In terms of gas and diesel consumption. It was up about 10 percent 2021 from 2020 And if you look at the vehicle miles traveled Pre-pandemic we we were at over 8,000 per vehicle estimated in Burlington During 2020 we believe it was around 6600 and in 2021 we believe it was around 7500 So we saw a rebound but not a full rebound When it comes to the transportation data I should mention that each year we're updating it with more granular data for the year prior Chittenden County travel data for example is not yet available for 2021 So this roadmap update is based on state of Vermont travel data The 2020 data has been updated to reflect Chittenden County numbers And each successive year will do a retrospective and update the year prior in terms of more granular transportation sector data In terms of our incentive programs, which I'll touch on in a moment We are making some good progress with strategic electrification But we're not doing so at the pace that's required to get to the net zero 2030 goal We're not yet on that pace when it comes to how many heat pumps are we adopting as a community? How many electric vehicles are we adopting as a community? Number of initiatives that happened over the course of the last year the rental weatherization standards passed by the council The primary renewable heating ordinance passed by the council the net zero revenue bond Which was approved in december by voters and was just issued in the last month And also the thermal energy charter change, which was just approved last week by the legislature None of those are reflected in this data yet. Those are all things that are going to impact the data going forward We hope as they have a positive impact on our fossil fuel use in burlington And again relative to national trends. I think we did fairly well in 2021 There's a lot of strong additional action that's needed And we in burlington are going to see some impacts from state and federal trends They can be a help to us when they're when they're moving in the right direction And vice versa if things are moving in the wrong direction, that'll impact us too So I think we have to always be aware that the state and federal policy context technology context Is going to have an impact in burlington This is a summary a current summary of our 2022 incentive programs Which have been boosted as you all know Through the green stimulus and now are currently boosted in part through the revenue bond proposal that we announced We have the best rebates we have ever had for electric vehicles, whether it's new or used whether it is a lease or a purchase Whether it's a plug-in or a full electric We have new incentives for home charging that are better than they've ever been It's it's really there's never been a better time when you look at our incentives the state incentives the federal incentives To look at getting an electric vehicle not to mention that four dollars Plus at the gas pump compared to Potentially 65 cents a gallon equivalent when you charge off peak With burlington electrics So great opportunity for folks to save money on fuel costs if they can switch to an electric or a plug-in hybrid vehicle We continue to have incredibly strong cold climate heat pump incentives We've seen and i'll have a slide the moment that shows the trajectory of that program has taken off Since we bolstered those incentives in 2020 and we do have some new programs Everything from electric motorcycles to new electric lawn equipment incentives commercial and residential all up here as well And folks can always go to our website to learn the latest and to take advantage of those programs Um, so just a few things that are underway right now I mentioned a few of these policy initiatives and the net zero revenue bond Obviously the city's efforts with fleet electrification and building improvements Also support the efforts for the broader net zero goal I know we've talked about at council before the mcneal Solar research center that we're hosting at mcneal with university of vermont Permit was filed at the puc just recently to move that facility forward So I wanted to provide a brief update on that and the photo here is actually from our social media in burlington electric It's a photo of a recloser That was the first project funded with our revenue bond proceeds to be able to be implemented And that is specifically helping with additional reliability with our north avenue infrastructure, but Wanted to just highlight that those infrastructure projects from the revenue bond are moving forward as we speak Um new initiatives for 2022 or expanded initiatives in some cases We've had a great partnership with car share vermont Folks have seen hopefully the evs and plug-in hybrids from car share around the community We're working with grant funding to support bringing Additional evs and plugins to the car share fleet And we specifically have heard from folks in the old north end that there's not enough charging in the old north end So i'm excited that we're going to have a plug-in hybrid vehicle With charging located in partnership with champlain housing trust right near the family room in the old north end Along with a public charger that will be available for residents of the community there Um, so we continue our partnership with car share We're also very much focused on renters in terms of accessing ev charging. We know that's a challenge We've had a good partnership with a company called ev match out of california We had piloted a program with them to launch 14 chargers around the community at rental and multifamily condo buildings All around the community that has worked out well Those chargers are available certain times of the day for residents of the building and can be made available Other times of the day for members of the public and we're expanding that with 50 to 60 more chargers coming In the next couple of years through that program to make it easier to charge overnight, particularly for our renters in the community Um district energy we're going to have more to report on this soon, but we will have a go-no-go decision In 2022 with that project um I think this evening Our low income pilot rate was approved at the board of finance and is on your consent agenda for this evening We're uh going to have our first ever low income rate for customers to provide a 12 and a half percent discount on their bills Um for eligible customers I mentioned the charter change a couple other things here that are worth discussing briefly We are trying to innovate with our outreach to customers. We're trying different things digital outreach and advertising Radio and elsewhere to try to get the word out about our incentive programs We are not a monopoly regulated utility when it comes to the transportation sector or the thermal sector We're competing with well-entrenched well-financed incumbent fossil fuel companies for energy dollars And so we need to be thinking that way in terms of how we reach out to our customers how we talk about the benefits of Charging with electricity for example um, and then uh two other Items that I just want to highlight from this list. We will have the first modern uh fast chargers coming to burlington in 2022 With the revenue bond support Those will be on their way and will be installed in 2022 We also are trying within our own Organization to staff up in the areas that focus on net zero including our energy services and our sustainability divisions at bed So just a few more charts on some of the incentives and how they're doing Here you can see our heat pump program Specifically our tier three rebates for heat pumps Pre and post green stimulus you can see we had a 15 x increase in adoption Since the summer of 2020 And even though we're doing well there even though we have 1235 heat pumps installed as of 2021 overall Including all of our different programs The roadmap goal would have been to have over 6 000 installed by this point to give you a sense of the ambition Versus how we're doing in burlington Similarly electric vehicles we've more than doubled the number of electric vehicles in the community through our rebate program Since 2020 We're not actually far off of the 2040 pace if you wanted to look at that as a comparison But we're not at the 2030 pace Which would be to have 1200 evs and plug-in hybrids We've got 549 so we're a little less than halfway on the evs and plug-in hybrids Um, and as you can see with some of our other programs I mentioned the charging for 65 cents a gallon equivalent We've had steady growth in that program in terms of customers who are signing up over time Still not nearly as many as are eligible Um, we are working as I mentioned to locate charging throughout the community These is a map of some of our existing public chargers Rental and multifamily chargers and also we have e-bike charging at several locations in the community as well We've identified a state funding opportunity to add more charging specifically. We're looking at areas relative to income and and relative to Having a high concentration of rental and multifamily and having a high concentration of lower income where we can locate charging That'll be accessible Even using street lighting poles as an example where we can locate charging for on-street parking in some some cases In terms of our low-income customers, we've had enhanced incentives To help them access these programs and we're seeing about a 15 participation rate overall So if you look at our evi incentives our heat pump incentives about 15 percent of those are going to our low-income customers And that's been growing particularly since the green stimulus launched in 2020 Seasonal growth for our e-bikes and lawnmower programs Lawnmowers continue to be one of the most popular programs among all of our electrification initiatives It's a good entry price point and our incentive is pretty Large portion of the purchase price. So we're seeing good uptake there E-bikes as well And then this just shows you overall how we're doing relative to our state renewable energy standard obligation We've exceeded it in both 2020 and 2021 and 2021 in some ways is more impressive Even though it's not as big a gap between what the state requires and what we did Because 2020 had our transit buses had a big geothermal project included 2021 was mainly just our programs our customers who are buying evis putting in heat pumps, etc And this is the last slide. I've tried to move through as quickly as possible These are just some thoughts in terms of what do we need to do Heading forward and obviously we've boosted our incentives. We're going to implement the revenue bond We look forward to working with you all and the mayor on the thermal energy charter change and additional policy development We want to advance the district energy project pursue state and federal funds Experiment with our outreach opportunities We've been active in advocating as well in Montpelier for policies like the clean heat standard, which would Further our progress here in burlington and make policy change around the state And obviously we'll keep updating this data every year with synapse Our challenges, you know, we need to accelerate the adoption rate and the emissions reduction to be commensurate with the ambitious goal that we've set In the community and we're not there yet. And and that's an important point to take away is we need to do more To to get there. We know progress is not going to be a straight line between here in 2030 There are going to be interesting kind of bumps in the road that we'll hopefully learn from In some cases, we're hoping for exponential growth in certain technology areas as they take off You know, for us, we continue to have no carbon price of any kind in the thermal sector Or the transportation sector at the state level or the federal level So that means that renewables are not necessarily competing on a level playing field I think there's an opportunity to do different things with that here in the city And obviously for us as a utility, we want to balance our fiscal responsibility With the need to drive this innovation So we're always going to be careful stewards of our customers' dollars and try to return the best possible value that we always can So I appreciate your time and letting me run through those slides. I'm going to stop sharing my screen and welcome any questions folks may have Great. Thanks so much. Thanks very much, Darren. That's a wonderful presentation lot going on This is an opportunity for the council if there is anyone who has any questions or comments On this on the roadmap and also if the mayor does as well Were there any counselors who had any questions or comments? Councillor barlow Thank you, president ballon. Thank you for that presentation I just had a question about the impact you believe The the covid stay-at-home working has had on the natural gas use in buildings. I mean, that's one of the lines and slide number five that looked like it was sort of Staying level is do you think that's a result or do you have any idea about what's causing that? Do you think it's a result of the people staying at home? Thank you for the question. Councillor barlow when we looked at the data Residentials actually down a little bit in 2021 relative to 20 and down overall since 2018 Commercial was the sector that was really flat and it's a larger sector relative to residential when it comes to natural gas So I think we're making some headway with with things like heat pumps. It's having some impact I think that certainly folks who stayed at home. We saw that with their electricity use residential use went up So I suspect there was some of that for natural gas as well But on the flip side commercial use would have been down during the stay-at-home time frame So I think our challenge is maybe more that We need more progress in both sectors, but the commercial sector really requires some some large-scale Solutions we certainly have buildings in the community that are heated 100 with geothermal heat pumps. For example You know doing that takes a large amount of fossil fuel use off the table when it comes to the commercial sector and Certainly the single biggest thing we could do to make a dent would be the district energy project So I want to keep that on the radar as well And one other question I had was around adoption. You said adoption has increased But it isn't at the levels you'd like. What are your plans to? increase adoption I think you know, it's an interesting challenge because nobody Anywhere in the country has done what we're trying to do here So there's not a document we can look at and say this is the exact game plan for how you get to net zero 2030 We've talked with other communities like Ann Arbor, michigan that are trying towards the same exact goal And adopted it subsequent to burlington I think what the tools that we have as a utility tend to be we try to offer the best incentives that we can And we try to do the best outreach that we can to customers But I do think there is a policy component here that's going to need to be Utilized for us to make additional progress And I think as I mentioned some of the policies you all have adopted haven't yet had a chance to to make an impact So as we see rental weatherization standards going to effect We're going to see a drop in in natural gas use in burlington as we see new buildings have to use renewable heating systems That's going to be a drop in what otherwise would have been new natural gas use in burlington So I think it's a combination of we have to have these incentives to help people retrofit Make it attractive provide the technical support Provide the financing But we also have to have policy and I'd be remiss not to mention that there are supply chain challenges All throughout every sector that we're talking about here So somebody might want a heat pump and may have you know trouble getting one I know for a fact that if folks are looking for an electric vehicle It's a very challenging time to locate one So at the same time our incentives are strong we face challenges in terms of of that as well All right, thank you great. Thanks counselor Barlow counselor Hanson Great, thanks for this. Um, I think One of the biggest takeaways for me is We need to Now that we have this authority from the charter change We need to move aggressively with policy. I think it's clear and I think I've heard Uh director springer say, you know, these incentives are great, but It's going to take policy to really meet these goals and As we just saw we you know, we need five times as many heat pumps As we got last year And we need to be and that was for last year and we need to keep ramping up and accelerating if we're going to hit these goals and We can only fall so far behind before we're not going to be able to hit those 2030 goals. And so I think right now is this really critical moment where We are falling behind in terms of Decarbonizing buildings, but we have this Huge opportunity to to catch up if we can get strong policy in place So I think that's a big takeaway and from a data perspective. I feel like This is something I brought up last year too, but Having the weather normalized data for natural gas usage. I think would allow us to have a much better understanding of To measure progress Because that's what really shows How we're reducing You know, how we're improving efficiency and reducing natural gas use So can you say anything about that the weather normalized data? Yeah, it's possible to look at the weather data and infer certain things from the non weather normalized natural gas use data The roadmap I think synapse is trying to be consistent throughout in terms of how they've tracked it So that we don't end up with an apples and oranges Comparison but I do think it's possible to look at the weather normalization and You know draw some conclusions from that I do think we've had We have not had a particularly cold winter over the last couple of winters for example My suspicion is if you had a Very very cold winter you would see natural gas use jump from where it is right now absent other interventions And we would see kind of a spike there just like we saw a spike in transportation use coming out of the pandemic So I guess the the biggest point I would make is we can't really count on the reductions that we've achieved in the natural gas sector being fully realized For all time because the weather normalization Would point to the idea that if you had a cold winter you might see usage spike That's why I think it's important to track it from the technology standpoint to how many heat pumps are we getting in? Because that will if they're used correctly have a depressing effect on the use of natural gas as well Great. Yeah, no exactly. I agree with that and Yeah, I just think big picture is we should be really proud of what we've done. We're doing great work. We've done a lot but we shouldn't confuse that with Thinking that we're on track because we're really not on track if you look at you know that that first slide of showing the reductions needed by year We're a lot closer to that business as usual line than we are to the To the net zero by 2030 line so That's that's really what I would say and I'm I'm eager to To collaborate and and get to work. Um, especially with this new charter authority that we have. Thanks Thanks, counselor Hanson Seeing no further comments Thank you Would you like to speak mayor Weinberger? Thank you, president paul. Um, I appreciate just uh, I would I think there's a really significant update. I agree with a lot of what both um Darren has said as well as I counselor Hanson, um, I Look at these numbers and I I think that this is some of our earliest evidence that as As we accomplished as a community with weatherization and as we accomplished with moving towards renewables As we accomplished even over the last decade with expanding solar installations in in the city Through political will through decisions made by this body the board of electric and light commissioners we We have in the past made a real impact on the Way in which this community has evolved and and made it one of the most Energy efficient communities in the country and then the most the first to get to 100 renewable. We're doing that again I think it's pretty clear if you look at this that we are moving the needle on electrification You look at the uptake in heat pumps. You look at the uptake in electric vehicles You look at the fact that uh, we um did not see the the rebound in emissions that The rest of the country did we had basically a quarter of the rebound We went up one and a half percent the rest of the country went up over six percent This should both At one level, I think it should embolden us and it should energize us it should Give us the courage of our convictions that we can make a difference here We can make this community a net zero community at the same time Council Hanson's definitely right. We we a year ago. We were on track now. We are not on track The numbers are going to mount every year if we do not continue to take decisive action to Accelerate this we are trying to do something hard and important And I think we put ourselves in position to make further gains with the fact that This new we have this new authority as a as a city and very grateful that governor scott last week Supported it And signed it into law after the legislature acted We we need to take we do need to act with that new authority. We also need to to Move in a whole number of other areas. I'm very much looking forward to continuing to Engage this council and look for ways to collaborate to accelerate this work. Thank you Thank you. Mayor Weinberger Shannon Thank you president paul Thank you for the presentation and the update I wondered is there such a thing as a commercially viable charging business Is that something that our gas stations can convert into commercial charging Businesses and that would of course be a little bit different model than Driving up filling up driving away, but they seem to have extra parking spaces It's a great question and I think in europe we're seeing some gas stations moving to that model And even in vermont, I think if you go to the The state rest stop in berlin. I think it's exit seven if I remember correctly There's a big set of charging infrastructure right next to the state welcome center and a gas station and You know, I think when you think about charging current technology If you were coming through on a trip and you needed to stop Fast charger even the real quick ones are going to run maybe 15 minutes You know and the slower ones might be 25 minutes or 30 minutes So in some cases we're seeing them in places where somebody can stop and have a meal Go shopping Maybe you know do something for a little bit longer time than they might But there's really nothing stopping us from having a gas station that would have a fast charger Being able to sell, you know a water a coke a bag of chips whatever they might be selling in the store Which is my understanding is that's where the the money is in a gas station business It's not necessarily in selling the fuel. It's in having somebody come in and buy something at the store So I would say that charging is not necessarily at this point in time incredibly profitable There are charging infrastructure companies that make the chargers and sell them that seem to have good growth models But when you look at it in terms of the revenue you get from selling the electricity It's not necessarily Very profitable model at the moment But yes, we could definitely see gas stations that have Fast chargers that have you know a place for somebody to stop get a bite to eat and get back on the road in 15 minutes And I think they're only going to get quicker from here. So maybe it'll be five minutes five years from now I wonder if there's a way to build some profit into that to make it more desirable to to create it so that If it's costing 65 cents If the coral area is 65 cents a gallon at a dollar a gallon that could still be worth it to somebody to Have access to that even on a regular basis have access To to a charger at that price So maybe bed is getting 65 cents But the vendor also has an opportunity to make some money on that Definitely and and you know that's built into some of our other charging models Where we're deploying infrastructure around the community is we don't always you know We're not necessarily going to bring in a significant amount of revenue at this point for the utility Charging to me is a little bit like a lost leader because folks are going to charge. Hopefully 80 of the time at home overnight That's the difference. I think with the model we have versus the model that we're going to have in the future I think one of the benefits of being an ev driver is you wake up every day You charged up at night when we have a lot of plentiful Cheap electricity and you have a full tank so to speak and you can go 200 300 400 miles during your daily trips without having to recharge The recharging infrastructure that I think we're talking about would be That 20 of the time somebody's going on a trip or has a longer commute or other circumstances where you know Just the at-home charge didn't cover it and in that case we need infrastructure We need it to be fast. We need it to be convenient. I'm not convinced. It's always going to be at a gas station model I think in some cases, you know, we want to have infrastructure downtown where people can come and Charge up and go shopping or charge up and grab a meal But I think there's definitely a viable model for a gas station if they wanted to install charging And diversify the fuel mix that they have and I think that There's been some discussions at the regional level that haven't played out all the way about trying to have standards for fuel sales in the transportation sector. So there could be a future Compact among states that says gas stations have to offer alternatives like EV charging We're not there yet, but I think it's it's a possibility Well, just thinking about the I know that you're you're trying to advance getting chargers in multi-family homes Rental properties, but since the majority of our citizens do live in In rental housing where it's going to be hard to get that charger there which makes Buying an electric vehicle impractical and we do have gas stations right downtown where they could They could charge and go downtown as well as on pine street for our local gas stations. It seems like I don't know if BED might be able to foster Something with them to make it accessible for more people. We can definitely we could reach out I mean, it's a intriguing idea and would certainly Be something we would be supportive of we want chargers all over the community we want them to be convenient affordable for folks and And serve every customer regardless of where they live So if you don't have access, uh, you know in your building you can go downtown or you can go to pine street And you can charge up quickly. We want that so we could definitely reach out and see if there's interest Well, thanks for all you're doing. Thank you Thanks councillor shannon Is there anyone else who Has any comments on? Yes, councillor gag. Oh, yes. Thank you very much I was just going to ask if you would raise your hand if you had anything to add. Thank you. Go ahead No problem. Um, darren. Thank you so much for the presentation. I think it's has been amazing and Great work happening. Have you heard of? wireless eb charging yet and what will it take to come to the state or in the country? Thank you councillor jing. Um, I have heard of that and I think What we're talking about is similar in some ways to wireless charging for your phone where You have a charger and you put your phone on it and it starts to charge There is technology that's being discussed where you could have a vehicle and a parking space that was wireless charging And you would just drive over the parking space and you would be charging the vehicle There's also I think a couple of examples that i'm aware of around the world Where there is a Road that has charging not just a parking space And as you would drive over the road you would gain an access to a charge Similarly through wireless technology I'm not aware of any companies yet that have Have expressed any interest in doing that yet in vermont or in burlington, but uh, we're we're always interested in partnering with Startups and other companies. I should have mentioned during the presentation. It was in the slides We're part of a group called the delta climb business accelerator And we try to bring companies that are working on interesting energy technologies to burlington Every year and we try to partner with some of them to do pilot projects And that's actually how our rental charging program started was with one of the companies that came Through that program. So I agree. It would be very interesting We're definitely interested to to partner with companies that are doing innovative things I haven't heard of any yet that are interested in coming here, but We definitely would partner to try to pilot something if they were Thank you. And the last question is specific to the thermal energy that just passed at the state Um, and from your perspective, what will it take for maybe the county and this this the state Um, to implement what burlington has done so far For the state to kind of follow what we're doing. Yes. Yes. What will it take from your perspective? Well, you know, I mentioned there was um A state legislation that's currently pending called the clean heat standard that would actually say to uh Fuel providers around the state that they have to take on some of the types of things that we're doing here in burlington They have to offer weatherization services for example, or they have to offer heat pumps for their customers or renewable fuels for their customers and so we've been supportive of that because That's very much the model that I think we have here is we want to offer the renewable and clean technology solutions for customers and Really at the state level We have great policy when it comes to the utilities Requiring them to be more renewable to offer good programs to be more energy efficient We don't have a lot of policy Although it's growing around the heating sector and the transportation sector And that's why I think the state clean heat standard would be an important Change to state policy that would help us as a state make progress because It's not just here in burlington. Uh thermal and transportation are more than 70 of the emissions in the state of ramon So they're the two big sectors there just like they are here And we need policy at the state level that will help us um as well as help the rest of the state Thank you so much for all the work. Thank you Thank you council jang. Uh, is there anyone else with any other questions or comments? Seeing none, um I would ask for a motion to accept the communication and place it on file So moved motion made by councilor bergman. Thank you so much and seconded by councilor hightower Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none all those in favor, please say aye. All right. Any opposed say no um Thank you so so much for this presentation and for all the work that you're doing. Thank you very much We appreciate the opportunity The next item on our agenda is the climate emergency report. This is item number 5.01 Is there any council or the Counselor or the administration that wishes to offer a climate emergency report? And especially in view of the conversation that we just we just had on the net zero energy roadmap Seeing none. We will close that item and move on to the consent agenda Is there a motion to Move our consent agenda and take the actions indicated So moved. Thank you. Councilor McGee. Is there a second to that motion? Thank you councilor travers. Um any discussion? Seeing none all those in favor of the motion on the consent agenda, please say aye. All right. Any opposed? Uh, we have approved our consent agenda before we get to our deliberative agenda Um, we have I would like to recess our council meeting to take care of two other brief meetings One is the local control Meeting in the second which i'll hand over to the mayor is the board of tax abatement So if everyone can move to the board To the local control commission will do that one first And we will convene that meeting at 8 40 The first item On the agenda is a motion to adopt the agenda motion made by commissioner shannon to adopt The agenda. Is there a second to that motion? Thank you commissioner. McGee seconded for seconding Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none all those in favor of the agenda, please say aye Any opposed? Please say no We have our agenda The second item on our agenda. The next item is our consent agenda Is there a motion to adopt the consent agenda and take the actions indicated so moved Thank you commissioner shannon seconded by council Commissioner McGee. Is there any discussion on the consent agenda? Seeing none all those in favor, please say aye I oppose say no. We have passed our consent agenda That moves us on to our deliberative agenda. We have three items on our deliberative agenda commissioner shannon Move to approve the 2022 2023 outside consumption permit application for red panda At 161 church street Thank you counselor. Thank you commissioner shannon. Um, is there a second to that motion? Thank you commissioner hansen any discussion on the motion? Seeing none all those in favor, please say aye Aye any opposed? Uh, we have passed that item Moving on to item 3.02 commissioner shannon Uh, pardon my french, but approve the 2022 2023 first and third class liquor license application for frère Dba mo dit poutine at 156 north wadis d'av with all standard conditions Thank you Thank you commissioner shannon. Is there a second to that motion made by commissioner hansen? I know that the applicant is here Um, thank you so much. I hope that commissioner shannon's french was acceptable I'm really comforted I think we all feel better now. Um, is there uh, is there any discussion or any questions that anyone would have for the applicant? Seeing none, uh, all those in favor of the motion made by commissioner shannon and seconded by commissioner hansen Please say aye. All right any opposed? None opposed the motion passes. Thank you so much for being here Uh, our our last deliberative item is 3.03 commissioner shannon move to approve the 2022 2023 outside consumption permit application for frère mo dit Uh at 156 north wadiski avenue with the note that poutine is coming to burlington Is there a second to that motion? Thank you council commissioner hansen any discussion on the motion? Seeing none all those in favor of the motion, please say aye All right any opposed? Please say no Uh, the motion passes and with our deliberative agenda complete and without objection We'll adjourn the local control commission meeting at, uh, 844 And move on to convening the board of tax abatement, which i'll pass to the mayor Thank you president paul. I'll call to order the board of abatement of taxes at 842 p.m. And would welcome a motion regarding the agenda council carver moved Motion by council carver seconded by president paul Discussion all those in favor of the motion. Please say aye. All right any opposed the motion carries unanimously Which brings us to the consent agenda and I would welcome a motion to adopt the consent agenda and take the action indicated So moved. Thank you. Councilor barlow seconded by council shannon Discussion Seeing none we'll go to vote all those in favor of the motion. Please say aye. All right. Are there any opposed? Motion carries and the consent agenda is adopted. We have no deliberative agenda So without objection, we will adjourn at 842 p.m. Back to you president paul. Great. Thank you mayor. Wineburger We will now move back to our recessed city council meeting at 845 And go into our deliberative agenda We have um, we had six items on the agenda We actually still have six items on the agenda because we removed item 7.05 But have added 7.07 The first item on our agenda is the approval of an outdoor entertainment permit 22 23 for butter at 127 north avenue on councillor shannon move to approve the 2022 2023 outdoor entertainment permit application for butter at 11 27 north avenue with all standard conditions and ask for the floor back after a second Uh, thank you. Uh, seconded by councillor hanson. Uh, the floor is yours councillor shannon. Thank you president paul This is a permit application. Um, that came to the subcommittee, but the Applicant was not present and so it comes to this council without Recommendation and I don't know if the applicant is is present tonight Anybody's here from butter I don't know there is a raise hand We have a raise hand. Okay. Thank you And I just ask um, if we can if the applicant is here We could hear from the applicant about what their intentions are for this permit I can't hear you anymore Hi karina, if you could just speak up just a tad just a tad um, so there was a question about I guess you weren't able to make the um The license committee meeting and if you could speak to what you're What you're planning to do Thanks for being here by the way Thank you. I hope you can hear me. Yes Okay, great. Um, I was not aware that I was on the agenda and I apologize for not being aware of that. Um, and thank you for Taking time out of your city council meeting to consider this Basically, we want the opportunity to be able to have live music out on our patio We've been offering live music on thursday nights in the restaurant And on a nice night, we'd love to have it out there just to accompany our dinner service And our in our regular hours We don't envision doing it very much. We don't envision having Any large bands more like ensembles of one to three musicians Thank you. Uh, there are any questions for the applicant? Okay, so, uh, based on that, uh, it I There usually is a motion on this which obviously did not come or is there there is a motion I did make the motion. Yes. That's right. That's right. So there is a motion. It was seconded So Seeing no further discussion will go to a vote all those in favor of the question. Sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry go ahead, please Yeah, um, thank you. Karina for being here The question that I have is about the outreach to the owner of The plaza, you know, have there been conversation or concerns that you know about? We have a very supportive the other owners. Oh, uh, no, I have not generally our hours don't conflict with Most of the services in the shopping center We are open during Hours in the evening when a lot of the services they're provided in the shopping center are during the day Like Salon Capri and otherwise But certainly I think we have a great neighborhood Of businesses in there and I would not want to do anything to harm the other neighbors Um, and I think we all do agree that we'd like to do more things in the shopping center to make things in the new North end more lively So I think the spirit of Cooperation is there, but I have not specifically asked my neighbors if they have any objection to this based on ours And also the owner of the plaza He's very supportive of what it is we are trying to do. He knows we're doing live music Um, I would certainly not be able to or consider that I could move ahead with any event in the shopping center That extends beyond my patio without his permission Yeah, thank you Thanks, counselor jang, uh, are there any other counselors who had any questions? Okay, seeing none. I think we can go to a vote. Um, all those in favor of the motion Please say aye Aye All right, any any opposed? Please say no The motion passes. Thank you very much. Karina for being here Thank you The second item on our deliberative agenda 7.02 is an outdoor entertainment Permit application 2022 2023 for deadless wine group counselor shannon Move to approve the 2022 2023 outdoor entertainment permit application for deadless wine group with all standard conditions Thank you, counselor shannon. Is there a second to that motion seconded by counselor hansen? Thank you Any discussion on the motion and I don't know is the applicant here The applicants are here if there are any questions for the applicant And I believe this did this the applicants were at the license committee Or yes, yes, they were and this uh came with a unanimous recommendation by the committee excellent um Seeing no Seeing no comments, um, we'll go to a vote all those in favor of the motion. Please say aye All right, any opposed? Please say no The motion passes. Thank you so much for being here We'll move on to item 7.03, which is a communication from Corey mims norm baldwin from dpw on the champlain parkway project initial construction contract award authorization We have a recommended action and Just to get things started. I would uh entertain The recommended motion at this time counselor travers I'd move to authorize the director of public works to execute contract with sd ireland kubricki joint venture llc in an amount up to 40 980 143 and 40 cents With 4,098,014 10 in contingency funds totaling up to 45 million 78 157 40 cents dollars and 40 cents For the champlain parkway initial construction contract subject to the final review and approval by the office of the city attorney Thank you counselor travers uh motion made as per the recommended action. Is there a second to that motion? Thank you counselor barlow So before we uh before we go any further, um, I believe that you have a Uh presentation Or a a short presentation to make we did have the advantage of having had discussed this At the april 11th meeting and if you could all introduce yourselves for the record, that would be great to go ahead Great. Thank you president paul for having us this evening. We did enjoy the opportunity to provide a presentation last Meeting on the 11th So, uh, we are here to provide a brief Update for you all and then to ans