Hey everybody welcome to Linuxcast, I'm your host Matt, and I'm Tyler. I've got cat in the camera Josh And I'm and I'm incognito dark zero Steve tech zero He needs a few more names. I'm just saying he's he goes by a different name on every single social platform I'm just saying at least there are multiple personalities Definitely. All right. Welcome to Linuxcast folks. This is a place where we talk about lengthy things and this week will be no Different but we're gonna be doing something a little bit different than normal and that we're not talking about news this week We're going to be talking about a topic We probably will talk about news again, but we're gonna do things a little bit differently. We're gonna choose One major thing to talk about whether that's a news item of the week or something like that or a big broad topic like we're gonna do this week and starting now Well, I mean yes starting technically next week. We'll be rotating hosting duty So next week Josh will be hosting the show because it'll be his turn to choose the topic. So That should be highly entertaining.  Those of you watching live hit the like button We do this is gonna be hosting. It's gonna be called the gentle That is fantastic if that's not a gentoo stream Somebody needs to get into the chat and say this is not a gentoo stream That is the requirement of every single memory memory in the chat if we're not talking about discuss Gentoo we're not installing gentoo or doing anything with gentoo. You have to let us know Definitely do file a bug report Yeah You can go to the eventual git.tuxspace.com and All your bug report there But in the meantime guys just remember that you can comment in the chat and even when even later Leave a comment on the eventual video that posts up because that's called engagement that lets Matt win. Yes Just let you know we do have a GitLab repository for the podcast where you could technically go over there and file an issue That'd be absolutely hilarious I'm definitely there's definitely gonna be somebody that does that from now on every time we do an episode There's gonna be an issue on that week's show notes that this was not a gentoo podcast And when it's my turn and when it's my turn it's gonna be KDE baby.  We're gonna go ahead and we're gonna the first part of the show is gonna stay the same So what did we do this week in open source? So Tyler? I know you've been sick buddy and very very busy, but I'm assuming you at least looked at your computer once this week Yes, well, I've been having issues with With certain programs not wanting to compile properly on Gentoo LVM I have to turn my make-ups down to Ridiculously low like J2 or 3 to get it to come successfully compile Which you know as Josh can attest it makes a compile time for such a freaking large program take forever So if LLVM could just like hop off my D that'd be fantastic And also network manager Did not want to compile at some point this week and then just decided it would compile right. I Have no idea So that's a little annoying, but I mean not really anything crazy going on with the Linux world. Everything's working just fine. I Am Technically on Windows right now. However, that's only because I had to boot up something and I'm making a hard drive I'm installing Windows and a whole bunch of games and stuff for a friend because his hard drive a You know bit bit the dust So I'm giving him a hard drive and he was like, yeah, it has to be Windows You know, I did I did ask if I could like put Linux on it And I I wasn't gonna be an ass Josh and put Gentoo on it because that would be a I could do that But I also can't do that to somebody who doesn't really know Linux at all If you had like access to his whole desktop tower You could set up like a Linux distribution that would hook VF IO hooks for loading up all the Windows application So that way you just temporarily boot into Windows virtual machine every time you need to do something in Windows But yeah, but he would be in Linux. Yeah, he would do that Oh and before I forget Matt did mention that we did need to address Apparently apparently I've a whole bunch people commented about me and a puppy last week because I was over at a client's house and One of the puppies was going wild. I can't remember what was going on But I do remember going over the puppy and I went to go spank the puppy and put her up and That that puppy Daisy is the sweetest puppy ever However, her bark is pretty damn loud and when I went to go smack her booty She got real nervous and that bark went up like 18 octaves So if anyone heard that or anything the puppy is completely fine I did not hurt the puppy one bit and you might have been able to hear it in the background me go Because after she did like a cuz you know, I was holding her and like I mean I like I slapped her as About as hard as I'll slap like my head right here but Not hard at all.  It put her up. But yeah, the puppies fine and also the other dog.  I'm like, yeah, they'll be fine Okay, so it turns out Tyler did not in fact murder the puppy, which is probably a good thing But the number of people who asked if you murdered the puppy Was more than one Just for context, I'm going back over tonight to watch the puppy for like a like a couple hours While they while their owners go out for dinner. Trust me. The puppy is just fine more than happy. Oh Yeah, doing good. I Have been that is one thing that I've been doing a lot of is I've been watching a lot of puppies this week and over the past couple of days I've gotten sick and dealing With certain puppies that are extremely high-energy While you're not feeling too great possibly having like horrific diarrhea is not fun at all at all Because I've my sister's got one puppy. We call her stinky this dog If like if I have to go to the bathroom and like I'm not feeling great And I got like I got to make it there that dog So I was I was sitting in there not feeling good on the toilet and this dog was practically doing laps on the walls All I was in there. Oh, please leave me alone I'm not feeling good But yeah, yeah, I've been watching a lot of puppies Puppies are great. All right Steve. What have you been up to this week? Okay Gonna make you I already mentioned it. I was messing with not messing. I am Crying see how long I last on open Suze Humble Drugs thing Tumbleweed if you're in America, you see tumbleweed burn it kill it get rid of it. It's an invasive species. It is. Okay Okay, drugs basically so With distro box I have arch in distro box. I have a Debian 12 in distro box and I have Hannah Montana Lenox distro box. Well, don't ask me why I have Hannah Montana I just do The experience lasted three five minutes and now the hard drive is right here back on zero Linux But I'm gonna go back to it from time to time I have something to tinker with because I Finally now know what the correct expression is. Thank you Alex if you're watching It's zero onyx is now feature complete. I keep saying done people think oh it's Missed no more zero Linux. I'm like That's the expression. I know the correct expression is feature complete but As a last feature that I'm gonna offer the users on Christmas I've been working on off and on because I'm on vacation supposedly is No, I stole Not stole but I took GPL license v3 and I talked to the One of the developers. I took the manjaro settings manager with that the one that has the thing I Took that and I want to try to implement it in zero onyx. Just the kernel manager and not the whole settings manager That will be the last so-called feature in zero Linux and after that it's going to be Buck fixes and maintenance mode basically it's in it's going to be in maintenance mode or the foreseeable future Because right now I got gifted Ticket to go to Dubai, so I'm gonna rattle some some of my old contacts to see if I can find a job Because this here old man needs some mula to live And selling zero Linux Well, not selling basically get it relying on donations for zero Linux is not paying them bill. Oh I already I will thank each and everyone that showed support ever they could Things are getting bad that to the point where we're currently suffering a two-week long intermittent our Outage very long our outages. So to be on this podcast I had to pay the generator the generator owner 50 bucks for four hours of extra power Just in case we go over but As far as Linux goes I've been really really really delving into this robot Isn't it wonderful? Not on this device on the steam deck Hmm and a steam deck Yeah, on zero Linux on the steam deck, that's what I use and in the office downstairs, so It's a wonderful experience if I knew how to use it So far I it took me four hours to get it installed. So Yeah, because to the Pac-Man that space s dash s Any this robot didn't work and then when when I got it to install I Couldn't install any Container right arch. I tried open Suza. I tried Debian. I tried every one of them. It kept failing Whatever reason kept saying some weird error. I figured out that it's a permission issue Some what whatever reason so I had to enable the unsafe way of making it read, right? Hmm That's weird. I'm glad that experience at all. I'm using right now the volley on open Suza But it's actually running on arch It's so cool Inception that's why I'm trying that's why I'm trying it. It's because you keep saying I'm using this from there this from there But I'm still on open Suza like okay. I need to try this but on the steam deck. It's failing So and I don't want to mess with my main system. I swore this system I'm not gonna restore for as long as possible and 15 years 100% positive that the reason why you're having permission issues Is because you're on the steam deck Think it's because of a immutable fire system 100% probably. Yeah Yeah, maybe maybe I don't know but I don't want to mess with this system unless I Install like I said now I have Open Suza tumbleweed on here, but I could replace it with arch with zero basically and Have a mess around with that because on open Suza tumbleweed. I don't know this the zipper thingy. It's You didn't mean that rooting me out. It makes me it's making me feel like all of a sudden I switched to fedora Well, those two things have nothing to do with each other than they both the same They look the same like The look of them the way they install packages and terminal they look the same Maybe a little alright Josh. What have you been up to this week? So this week I've not been doing anything with Linux because I've been messing around with a True nas core on the work servers as for like ours for our dedicated nas at work And I've been expert experimenting and playing around with that. I'm still not it I'm still not comfortable at all with ZFS. I still have no idea what's going on with it Nobody knows what ZFS is. I think it's so complicated Yeah, so we're messing around with that with that because you know, uh, I Managed to get a hold of some guy from this this company that's up in Michigan You might you might have seen them on like YouTube channel. They're his name is Tom Lawrence. I might have contracted them Lawrence information systems.  I don't I don't want to like Steer your you know your week off topic, but I do just have to find out your sipping Drank from distritudes mug. Yeah, you're wearing a linux vest shirt. Yep And there is Uh, quite a bit of linux You know Stuff going on the back mainly there until our card like back back there, you know, yeah one of the Uh, so I just wanted to say for what I notice what's going on. I notice you wrapping Over there and also, uh, is your arc gpu one of the ones that got caught up in all of that? Um, Oh, yeah, there's a uh, what is it? No, it's bleed thingy. No, there's a um A vulnerability in some intel arc cp or gpus Like this I think it's like the 780 or I can't remember what it is Uh, I saw a youtube short talking about it But it's only it's only intel arc gpus of a certain few models in, uh between like december And like january of a certain time frame or something between october and december 2022 which uh mine mine is from that era. Yes Uh, that said that said I've been flashing beta versions of firmware provided by intel Onto it so I don't think I'm actually susceptible to but I at the same time Because I have barely been at basically my house the entire week. I have no idea All right, we'll just look if there's anything at ddos related in the news just know Josh was part of it. Okay. It was the inside job That's definitely gonna happen All right, so Let's see what if It seems like I probably could have been thinking about what I was doing this week while you guys were talking But to be honest with you it's just been another one of those weeks where I've just been working like crazy I've edited like 150,000 words this week It has been one hell of a week at work, but I've been Messing around a writer. I'm an editor now. I used to be a writer Um, that's I kind of got promoted a few years ago So I've been doing the right the editing thing for quite a while now It's a it's not as fun as writing to be for the just some inside baseball guys If you ever have the opportunity to go from the writing part of the team to the editing part of them Don't take it. Just don't it's much much easier to mess around with your own writing And do the whole spell check thing on your own stuff Then have to deal with other people who don't know how to use spell check Don't understand that there are difference between the words, you know, they're there and they're, um, also Effect and effect, you know, e versus a right Don't know the difference between those And it doesn't some of the people that I work with and I really shouldn't be saying this publicly, but I don't give Give a shit. Um It doesn't matter how many times you tell them that there's a difference between effect with an a and an effect with an e They'll still use it wrong Every single time Like every single time like I even sent this one guy Uh, a link to a grammar girl like there's like a grammar girl website And it just the lady who just explains exactly when you're supposed to use it and like no, no still completely uses it Completely differently every time it's like because I'm consistent like it's not great. Anyways, never be an editor for other people. It's horrible um Because english people don't know how to speak to type in Write in english. It's just not something anybody knows how to do. All right. Anyways You can tell that I've been triggered a little bit this week It's been it's been it's been a week. Anyways, I've been other than on Linux on that side of the the thing. I've been working on a little bit of my Uh debian 12 review I've had debian install on on an alternative hard drive on my main machine and on a on a laptop that I use every day Other than that, that's I've been just messing around with one thing I will tell you guys this is that if you ever want to just have a distribution that just kind of sits there in the Background and never needs an update use debian because the debian on my main machine has gotten logged into Basically since I installed it like three months ago. I did an update. I had like 12 updates. I mean It's debian stable and nothing was updated. It was like crazy Um, so if you ever need a distribution or you don't need to update it Definitely use debian also on the other on the other side of that open suzer this week pushed a A snapshot through to tumbleweed 3 000 packages in that update Yay gcc. Yeah, it was gcc Like the entire gcc stack And I had on top of that haskell updated this week So there was every single haskell package was was also updated all in that same stack And I'm maybe it might have been the update previous to that but python also updated this week So I've had a lot of updates come through open suzer this week Not a single problem. It's just updated Rebooted went right on with everything. So open suzer for the win Uh, I have uh, uh, uh, I well I updated, you know, when you are since, uh open suzer is tumbleweed is rolling um Did have quite a few updates at after install uh, well not after install but after a while And uh, yeah It just reboots and it's just fine until something goes wrong and we never know when that will happen It's the same with arch it works until it doesn't Yeah, you could go the ginti route and just know lvm and you know network manager gonna explode You don't need network manager Shut up Shut up. That's what I've been told by multiple people. I don't like that answer I like network manager What I thought you were gonna say was that you could just use gentoon just assume that everything is going to go wrong always I mean, I just use system d So, uh, it's fine What do you mean you just use system d to the system d network d What? You didn't know that was a thing No System d literally does everything I would So d has like its own little network. Okay system d is my network manager. It's my it's my boot manager Sure, this system It's yeah, it's my knit system. It's my cron replacement. It It does a lot of stuff for me nowadays. You said I think I've called on rebel Yeah, system d network d system d also does Pam stuff now and they're they're they're they did a talk like two week two week two Years ago where they were going to replace They're talking about Securing the home directory as well something about that so system d is gonna get bigger Yeah, system d home d but however system d home d is not replacing your home directory It's managing the home directory Well to it's to solve the problem where like everyone had access to all the home directories or something like that It was a permissions thing Right well right now right now the way that it is that a lot of distros are still giving uh read permissions across multiple users on home directory And uh system that's what how it's managed by default the system d home d does does not let that happen I Remember the talk it was like it was like two years ago or something like that It also it also allows the home directory to be just straight up portable So you can carry around your uh entire home directory. I used to be flash disk just plug it into any computer just log in I do remember vaguely that people were freaking out about it. I don't really remember what the controversy was Anyways guys half an hour in I'm just saying It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. There's no way we're making to 45 minutes. Damn it All right. Anyways, it's okay. We should have known that was gonna happen. So the way this is going to work We have a topic that we're gonna talk about and we're gonna I'm assuming we'll have tangents like we always do Of course, you know, it just happens. So this week's topic is in the form of a question Is linux really about choice? So I've seen several linux youtubers talk About how linux really isn't about choice And I've also heard from many of the immutable guys how Because one of the chief complaints against immutable distros is that it takes away the choice of the The user to be able to have full control over their, you know root file system everything, right? So The one of the reasons why I wanted to cover this was because This is something that I think we're going to be talking about quite a bit Over the course of the next few years as immutable distros become more of a thing. So I think that all everybody has this idea that linux is about choice because You know, there's a lot of distros. There's, you know, a lot of different init systems There's, you know, different ways you can connect to the network that tyler just learned about Yes, so, um The argument that linux is not about choice has never really set Well with me because it doesn't make much sense So I thought we could discuss this. I'll make it make sense to you. I'll make it make all right Steve has been chomping at the bit.  Take us away.  That's actually pretty much what I was gonna say. I was like, yeah, it's about choice except The choice to bully whoever made the wrong choice that you didn't make exactly Wherever you go and wherever you share your choices They're gonna make you feel they're gonna make you they're gonna belittle you And make you feel so bad for making the choices Yeah, that's why That's why me and josh became such good friends We would meet up late at night and we'd be like dude Who are we in a bully today because they are not using gen 2 and yeah, but it is about we went off on adventures It is about choice. We are free to choose whatever we want. We have so many choices Users have so many to distrust to say to choose from they have so many post install scripts that they can modify and To their to their liking and install and use and whatever they can pick and choose at everything but Sometimes too much choice is chaos That's why for example, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about zero Linux for a second. Okay I'm the maintainer Anyway Just remember person that's typing up the email right now. He apologized ahead of hand But We use Hicks law less is more so I'm not saying no choice at all But not as many choices as we have today. It's becoming overwhelming like I'm Zero onyx will has a lifespan it will disappear at some point and it'll be one less choice That's gonna confuse users. I just created zero onyx for me I didn't create it for for all the people out there But people liked it. So I put it out there. So you have a lot of choices. It's all about choice, but please For god's sake Don't share your choices publicly because at the moment you do gonna get lambasted by And belittled by users telling you oh you made the wrong choice. You should have chosen that that's a hundred times better This is a thousand times better. Oh, you're doing it all wrong.  You're doing it all wrong Welcome to the next world people. Unfortunately. This is what it is This is how it is now, hopefully it'll get better in the future, but Keep your choices to yourself Don't publicly discuss them on especially on on the distros community because Like for zero onyx is a dead server. So you can discuss your choices, but nobody's gonna care So it's a desert. It's dead. You can discuss as much as you want, but on active servers I went I went on I'll give you an example I went on the chris titus tech discord because We have a something happening in next week But I went on this discord. I mentioned my distro And the guy went to my website and he was like Boo-hoo false advertising. Boo-hoo. He chose kde. Boo-hoo. He chose xfce. Boo-hoo this boo-hoo that He didn't even install zero limit. He was just judging it by looking at the website. Sorry guys It's about choice, but keep the choices to yourself You don't keep them to yourself You have only one person to blame for for for being lambasted. It's yourself That's what I gotta say about I don't really long.  Like yeah, you you But new users who are who have heard so many good things about linux and so many So many good things about linux. They come they install the distro that people have been talking so good about They go to the community of that distro. They get lambasted. I'm not talking about you Groucho, I'm talking about the new users out there who want to experience linux for the first time telling them I'm just warning them for the people who are already on linux and who are already already been there already bit the bullet and they already Got lambasted.  Yes No, no, I'm talking about just online You can go anywhere online to be like I switched for a windows pc to a mac book There's gonna be a whole bunch of people are like, why the hell do you do that? And then you can go vice versa.  So this here Is a system 76 laptop It's it's a 2019 lemur pro I bought it. I posted about it on the internet. You know what the very first response I got Your No, it's just a clever computer. Oh, I just thought I commented I We are so good at canceled So what'd you get called it? He meant happy by the way. Okay. He meant happy Like all the very first comment that I got was that it's just a clever pc. You can buy them anywhere I'm like, well Yes and no But he's just like, no, it's just a clever. It's just a clever. It's just a clever. I'm like, okay. Well Fine, and I don't block people but I'll just leave this conversation. I'm looking at look at it anymore Well, also, I mean when it comes to computers if you think about it it kind of makes sense the way that people get like all upset about it because Most people can't well, I mean Shit most of us can't afford to go out and buy a laptop You know twice three times a year. So when you get a laptop It's normally like it's kind of a big deal. So you spend a lot of time thinking about what you're going to get Yeah, yeah, five six is minimum Yeah, and and like I don't know it's one of those things where when when it's such a big purchase um What someone will choose especially nowadays is You've got so many different options the odds that what you want is exactly what someone else wants It's probably zero because I mean Like there's so many laptops the framework laptops are now out You have so many choices for laptops the thing about lap So the reason why I brought up the laptop is because uh for me the way that I see hardware is much like uh people that argue that It's basically the same argument as steve's argument when it comes to zero linux where it's just like he looked at He yet he posted about on a discord channel somebody went to the website and just started judging it They didn't even install it. They didn't try it. They never looked at it I bet you that they've probably just installed arch and sold the arch head of script And I've been running that for a couple years now because you know, that's what that entire community is It's just like whatever chris chris titus is running for his linux linux distro but uh The the way that I see it. It's just like no matter what you do It's just like people people are going to to give an opinion and uh, you know, they're just going and the the Opinion of the negative opinion is just so much easier to give out Then anything else well And the condescending type of uh condescending type of opinions too.  I wasn't immune to that and I still aren't I'm not immune like it's uh groucho over here, uh that the Uh Guys it's just a joke. I'm not we're messing around. I don't mean he's a groucho. It's just a brotherly joke uh, but uh, it's Like what was I gonna say? What was I uh olsheimers is what happened there? I actually don't know to be honest. I distracted myself I want to continue bad soon before with a cigarette. I can't describe it like, uh, uh I I tease groucho over here about w m ms.   I never tried I just I'm judging it for I'm judging all wms from what I'm seeing on youtube And I know my capabilities my own capabilities And I know that they're in fact not made for me I don't like to mess with conflict files.  They're both for me. They doom what uh, they give me what I need When I need it Without us without anything.  So gnome is like the girlfriend That is too good. Who is too good to be true? No, no, no, no You you're starting to fall into the don't fall into it gnome is the catholic girlfriend who's waiting till marriage Okay Yeah, if she she has a book with her at all times very very strict Very strict upbringing has the the very the Protestant parents or something No, no, no, you're you're you're speaking you're speaking. No you want something worse. It's the orthodox girl You want to marry because the orthodox, you know what orthodox means orthodox means very strict additional Traditional by the book So I am orthodox by the way, so this conversation went in a completely different direction than what I thought Okay, okay, so I'm gonna drop this link here in the chat here first of all It's called is linux about choice xyz and they raise they raise several good good opinions on various things So this is your website. This is not my website. This is somebody else's website I don't know whose website this is but credit to the person that made this because he did an all right job All right job, okay, so okay, all right job But anyways what this website is is just explaining exactly how much choice you actually have in linux Now, first of all, it clarifies that linux is just a kernel You have no choice as to which corner you're running if you're running linux because you there is only one linux That's trademarked for a reason. So there's only one linux There's different variations of linux, but at the end of the day, it's all linux pedantic bullshit, but go ahead Yep, and then you have I was gonna say that You have at least seven desktop environments So and uh, you can't you can't easily migrate from one desktop environment to another without completely removing without Completely removing the previous desktop environment So as soon as you install a desktop environment, you're more or less stuck with it with some caveats There's an ecosystem of applications that that work better with some some desktop environments than others. So like using gtk applications a kde or kde applications in your gnome environment And then the attempts the attempts to just collect everything under the free desktop standard umbrella Which by the way, it says the proper package. It says that the only official packaging format is rpm basically only like four distros actually care about that Uh, and then, you know, we got choices by applications for choice itself politics the system Seems like I said too much choice overwhelming now now when it comes to my personal opinion I it I say that depends on the distribution because I take this website's argument over linux is just a kernel when we're talking about choice I'm talking about the distribution. What distribution are you running? Is that distribution giving you choice?  It's just a book that tells you how to make a distribution Not a distribution if we're gonna be clear if you want to install anything that has a large dependency tree at all on lfs It could take you it could literally take you Over two to three weeks to compile and install just kade live because of its dependency tree Now on the opposite under the spectrum, we have the immutable distros But let's not look let's not look at the immutable distros yet. Let's look at the distributions that are basically almost immutable Uh, so I'm talking about stuff like your open susa micro os which is which is not an immutable distro It's just doing very fancy things with butter fs Now when you install micro os you it gives you two desktop environments. You got kde plasma and you got gnome now When you boot into the environment, you're booted into a read-only snapshot of the file system That that's how micro os actually works. It's how it functions And uh, you're just doing butter fs magic to be able to uh make it make it a more mutable system Now you can theoretically remove the desktop environment that that you installed with it but The pains that you have to go through to get it completely removed that way you can have as pure Plasma experience as you possibly can or as pure and lxqt experience as you can It's just not worth the effort So at that point it's wrote it's really better just to reinstall the operating system. Well to be fair Micro os is still fairly new. It also doesn't have the community surrounding it that silver blue does So like on silver on silver blue the community is much larger And they've solved some of those issues. It also works differently, right? So they've created. Uh, yeah, like so u blue is there and that makes it much easier to rebase to a different desktop environment So well u blue is really just taking all the silver blue tooling and just making it actually more of a known concept Basically how silver work documentation to The way that silver blue works is that yes If you're just a desktop user and you installed for door silver blue and you want to change from gnome to kd plasma You kind of can't That's it. That's intended because the way that silver blue operates is that so silver Is that you're really just booting into a container image it you if you go to make it make a silver blue distro And if you want to see how I know this you can go to github.com slash 10 lee j dot Uh slash 10 lee j slash htpc because because I generated my own silver blue image for a home theater computer and uh, you You're basically just write a container file and in that container file You just tell it to install all the things you want to have installed and uh, you post it to a container registry and then you can just rebase any existing silver blue instance To that and that's that's basically how you would make silver blue mutable So, uh, you can still change silver blue if you really want to the question is good You and I know that rpm os tree exists However rpm os tree has a limited amount of changes that you can make with it You can only apply up to a max to a theoretical maximum of I think it's like 64 layers Layers or something like that through os tree at that point is really just better to just be making your own image Steve I love how boring you I love how me and steve get like Like I I don't know what steve's doing, but I know I was distracting my sister's text to me with a whole bunch of bs I'm like I'm doing the podcast leave me the hell alone. I look up all chats talking about us how I'm high during most dreams and Me and steve aren't paying attention. I'm like it helps any I try to do I try to do my best college professor Uh impression because you know I can see that my students obviously are not paying attention Yes He's looking at he's looking at chicken recipes All right, so this this conversation like I said did not go where I thought it would go which is fine I'm actually glad My opinion on this is is too full first off the reason why so many people are Negative about other people's choices is because of their fandom towards what they use, right? Josh for all this problems when it comes to distro hopping is a gentoo fan Okay, he let if you were to ask him what his favorite Distro is he'd probably say gentoo even if he's not using it at the moment. He'd probably say gentoo. I'm right about that, right josh Yeah, all right, so he's a gentoo fan steve. He's an arch fan boy. Okay. Nope. Yes. He is Yes, he is You made arch distribution Doesn't mean that i'm an arch. It doesn't mean that i'm an arch. No, no, no, no, no. I can use whatever I want You're you're taking you're taking it the wrong. You're you're you're getting defensive. It's okay Uh fanboy doesn't mean you you're you're blind to the flaws of the thing that you use Okay, that doesn't mean Like I am I have become an open suze fanboy Okay, I still think that zipper is one of the slowest pieces of crap that you can use Okay, also they've been working on parallel downloads since 2016 It hasn't happened yet. Okay. Probably not gonna happen. I'm just I mean, they're saying they're rewriting all this stuff It's it's just at this point. I don't think zippers ever going to have parallel downloads Which is I know I know where I know where you're going with with your whole argument. It's about people they they Have such such opinions because they love what they use Well, and they want to have other people use it too, right?  There's something there that you don't like about gen 2 But if someone else who doesn't like gen 2 came to josh and started criticizing everything that is gen 2 He'd get defensive about it and and start rambling on about all the technology All the technicalities that he has in his brain about how awesome gen 2 is he'd go on his feel, right? Same thing with with all the rest of us who are fans of everything When someone comes at the thing that we like we get very defensive about it even if we Can't admit that it's flawed. So that's no no no I'll sorry for cutting you off here is when somebody tell Comes to my discord and tells me I don't like kde I don't like the the fact that you selected kde to be easy the flagship for zero linear Like I like it. You're you're free to to not like it. There's a lot of choice out there You select the desktop environment the distro that uses the desktop environment that you prefer I never defend zero linux Because i'm the creator people. I know because I know People are gonna say that. Oh, he's the creator. He's gonna defend it until the day he dies I'm like no I'm you do that though Sometimes I know I don't yeah, you do No, I do I do it. I do it Jokingly, I don't do it I still wait the day where he has a where he has a button in his tool to reset all the kde settings back back to default That way I don't have to remove like 500 things whenever I install zero linux. Oh, that's coming. Oh, that's coming That's coming. That's coming No, but what what what i'm saying is I jokingly say that defend I say oh kde for the win kde is the best thing but I do it jokingly. I never mean it Uh, I you will see on my server. I do tell people I use whatever works for you Like I there's a lot. There's uh, there's a good friend of mine A person I do respect 100% He's on my server. He's been a friend of mine since the beginning of zero linux Doesn't use he doesn't even use linux. He uses windows Because we are uh, we are mature about it. People should use whatever Works for them Ignoring anybody's otherwise opinions about that It should you they shouldn't be bullied into using anything I wasn't bullied into using linux. I just I think you shouldn't bully people into using stuff, you know In a fun way, you know Not even a fun way I You need to thank but we have to we have to address something as well We need to thank those bullies The linux world because if it weren't for those bullies I wouldn't have had the thick skin that I do today Yeah, thanks josh And and I wouldn't have matured To the point that I am at now Like if a person comes to me and tells me I use a Mac like I did use a Mac and I do use a Mac. I use windows. I use linux. I use various versions of linux Use whatever works for you for me and this is going to come as a shocker for all Who know zero in it Including you guys when I need to do Things and I need stability. I am on no not on kde kde. I just All right, that's it. I'm sorry steve's been kicked off the podcast. Um, I'm But things like that like the podcast and stuff those are clunky things I can do on kde But when I want like I want to sit down and I want to write something without the The desktop environment getting in my way. I just boot into zero g or gnome because zero g is nothing but vanilla gnome I'll keep quiet about how I use nil on everything except the desktop computer right now I don't care if people. Okay. So hold on a second I have come across in the past as anti gnome tyler thinks i'm having a love affair and also having gnome's babies Yes, that's happening. That's not people. It's all I don't hate gnome. I just don't use it So let's kind of see if we can pull the conversation back towards that shall we there There is a It's a disease amongst it's not a disease. It's that's too hard of a word It's it's a trait amongst basically everyone no matter what you're talking about Let's just focus on the linux community. It's a trait of people to Find something that they enjoy and it's especially true in the linux community because we we Tend to consider ourselves a community and we tend to tribalize into certain aspects, right? So we have the arch guys. We have the gen two guys We have the open sues and fedora and ubuntu guys, right? So sounds like the political sex in lebanon. Yeah right, so We we have these Groups of people and they're all very passionate about the things that they use but they're also But I think what we tend to forget as people who are passionate about certain projects Is we're all very much like this with windows or I mean with linux towards people who use windows Yeah, we're all so we tend to Whenever tyler uses windows like he did today, there was a part of my brain That says everyone in the chat becomes missionaries and they must save my soul How dare I mean how dare he record a linux podcast on a windows install And he's done it multiple times. Also. He was like an amp. He was an apple fanboy for like 30 seconds He bought all the apple stuff Hey, look, I literally bought a mac mini and it bricked itself updating. I'm not really all I'm just saying he he had all the mac stuff for like half a minute And he recorded at least one podcast from all of his mac stuff Last week he recorded the podcast from an ipad So I'm just saying there's a small part of my brain that when he does that Pisses me off because how dare he how dare he beats like that. It's now embedded. No, no It's been happening for so long and we've been in this environment for so long It's becoming part of us. It's we're starting to To have like auto responses following the rest of the It's like the linux community is like society particularly right now It's like the longer you're within this society the The longer it's gonna the the more it's gonna rub off on you and the more you're gonna start acting like Like them I think it's just normal. All right. Like you've got people that do different stuff there Hang on a second here. Josh. I'm gonna say Tyler Tyler. This is important. Just take it over man We're almost an hour in on the recording and nobody knows how to shout at you yet Oh, that's perfect. Yeah, that's true. That's true. We need to fix that Well, we need to fix that so if you guys go to the linuxcast.org slash contact That is how you find all of our contact information You can shout at matt directly at email at the linuxcast.org make sure you send all the angry emails to him Did you just kick him? No, where did he go?  Oh my god He went offline All right, all right, uh Anyways, I'll thank you. I'll I'll continue doing the contact information for you So, uh, if you guys want to attempt to contact zany and find out where he went for us So you can find him on youtube.com The og In the meantime, you can find my universal contact information at tinleyj.com slash stalker because we all know that if you want to find me Yeah, you got to be a bit of a stalker because I don't have that big of a platform Steve Steve you're on fasted on right? It's like that add zero linux. So it's fasted on org slash add zero linux That that will take into your profile if you need to shout out directly You go to add zero linux at fasted on org Through your masoni instance and you can contact him directly Yep What the hell happened Who knows but uh, I don't know we have uh, we don't know but there is a fact of the week Did you know about a year 2000 there were over 100 distributions to download? It's all who knows Okay Did Tyler did Tyler did you rage? Did you rage quit?  That's what Josh interrupted you and all of a sudden you just went by like, oh my god. He just raged quit. We're never gonna see him again Also, I now I have to hang up because my camera is completely gone So It's fine. It's we're just gonna blame bill gates. All right It is his fault Uh Give me just one second. I will see if I can't fix my camera. Yep. Yep. Yep Stuff going on.  Now we see.  Yes, nobody can see us. That means that we could that means that we could strip Thank god, I'm taking my shirt off dude. It's been a hot day dude. These pants here. All right. Let's see here It'd be absolutely hilarious if just all of the webcams came back and I'm and I'm just sitting there shirtless All right It's fine. This is an audio show. Nobody needs video anyway Except for I've been trying to make the video good It doesn't really matter because uh tyler you said windows completely crashed, right? Yeah, dude. It was a pretty messed up blue screen. It was bad. So your recording is not gonna be there. So um, we're gonna be We're not gonna be having any good audio this week either. So Oh, we're starting to get cameras again Oh, I'm working on it. If I wait, I think I think I'm gonna leave wait. Yeah, I believe in the correct way How can I get obs to grab my camera again? I think If discord grab like if obs closed and discord grabbed it, you're gonna have to completely close discord uh Kill discord and obs And then well, no obs should capture it back if you completely close discord And then you can reopen it Tumbleweed's fantastic cloudy tuba. First off Fantastic name. I love cloudy tuba. That's a great handle. Um tumbleweed's fantastic.  It's a bill gates problem bill gates Our linux discussions and he's like, you know, he's finally taking action to stop us Somewhere in the back of josh's mind right now is like Josh's I made him a v4l loopback video. Why is he using v4l loopback? I know right you like cool stuff like this If he was using the thing I told him to use All right, give me one more second then we'll we'll carry on. All right um All right, team dig You need to be in dupa, dude What are you going to do by I'm still waiting for my brother to send me the ticket. All right, so To the people who are watching on video. I apologize. You won't be able to see me for the rest of the podcast It's just the the right now my um, my my camera is not even on so No, I'm not rebooting. I we're not we're just gonna carry on And see if we can't they're not gonna they're not gonna be seeing your beautiful face. No, um, and the view should go up That absolutely won't happen Anyways, I got everybody else back to the where they're supposed to be but um, my uh cameras just not working anymore You can you can do what you can do in obs is Uh Click the eye Good to disable it flick it back on or right click properties select Something else then so re-select the camera. Sometimes that boosted back up. No That's fine. Um, something's going on wrong there. It's it's When I unplugged on the re-plug. Well, well, I'll I'm not gonna worry about that right now Um, ty when I thought tyler rage quit I switched to the three man Uh scene and when I switched to the scene the other scene it Fucked everything up. It's fine. All right. Uh anyway, so we did the Josh is trying to do me a favor and he Was trying to do the contact information. So I went through a whole spiel As long as you've been sitting in here. I don't know if the chat I don't know if uh, it made it all to the live stream I mean if you want to do the contact information you can all of the all of this nonsense went to the live stream Okay, so we're good. So we're good. Let's continue the discussion. So, uh I have no clear where we're going. I'm going to try to get a spin anyway. Anyway, how about we just Stop it.  All right I I literally can't have all four of you talk of us talking at the same time So let me be the host for a moment. Okay. Oh, okay I'll regain the hosting duties now that I've finished the the you know, just listening to a fantastic conversation It did get more viewers. Thank you, travert Anyways, um, so we were talking about a fandom and how people were very Um, uh associative with the the things that they use, right? So another way another direction we could take this conversation in Josh mentioned earlier because we just kind of bypassed the whole immutable thing is that and somebody said this in the chat earlier is that the The choices that we're used to are going to be transferred most have have always been For the developers and for the community, right? So you can choose what distro you want to use you can choose What desktop environment all these things, right? You've had those choices and also Going parallel to that all the developers have had choices to what they want to work on That's the reason why we have forks of literally everything You know, if you if you don't like what If you don't like gnom3 you go create mate, right? If you don't like one thing you just go create another thing that's based on the thing that you don't like and just make it your own Those choices are Some people argue being taken away When we move towards this immutable future that we're going to be having so My question to you guys is this Do you think in the grand scheme of things we don't need to get into the technical details of josh did Um, do you think that immutability takes away? Actually takes away choices from the linux community or do you think no?   That's just y'all I'm so confused. No, it does it does not it gives two it adds too much choice where there is already too much I like dammit.  Didn't I say this is the best podcast on the linux podcast on the internet two clowns out show and The weird kid over here. Uh, so yeah, so But anyway to be back to serious stuff The immutability immunity immunity the abilities thingy Can pronounce that word It gives more it gives really it doesn't take any uh choice away. It gives more it gives more choices It's like Have so many uh immutable distros now it adds The it adds noise to an already noisy environment That's how I see it because especially especially that the immutable distro distros Some people describe them as beginner user friendly. Yes, they can be They're not really It depends if you give it to your grandma, of course your grandma's not gonna click away and do things but if you give it to Somebody who likes to tinker but doesn't know anything about linux.  It's gonna blow up in their face So it's adding noise to an already noisy environment. That to me. That's how I do people are freaking out in the chat over where the hell is meant um He killed his camera because things happened. It's fine. He'll be back next week Hmm. Yes, uh, he's been he's been absorbed into a black hole. No, no, no, no, I might finally let's say the truth Well, we are too slow. We are too slow. No, no, no, it's It's called I finally had an excuse to go up to michigan. Hold on his thing is loading Uh-oh, is this camera working now? No It is really it's really not Okay, like I'm just going on like I I I'm pretty sure what's happening here is that The brio is just completely. I think confused So, yeah, that's the reason why there's no there's no uh matt right now. Okay, so there you go Okay, but we are truthful here Matt the reason matt is you don't see his beautiful face now It's because bill gates decided to use Tyler's computer revenge for windows To bill gates bill gates. This is literally Voldemort from harry potter That's what it is vannon Or sachet nadella I don't I don't know any other microsoft's executive names Oh See you were saying names for microsoft there and I don't know who those people are Oh, okay. Okay. I have no I the only person I know for microsoft is bill gates and like keep balmer Yeah, but even him like I don't even is he still even at microsoft? No Yeah, I don't think so he's running his basketball team into the ground. Um, oh good good Anyways, all right, so Josh, what do you think about the immutable thing? Is is it taking away choice? Nah, it's putting choice in a different area that people aren't used to giving them the perception that there is no choice anymore But at the same time it's it it there is there you are putting more artificial limitations in the way of choice But honestly, I don't think that's a bad thing. I agree very mature very mature very mature answer. Wow, you're welcome I disagree with that. I think it is taking away choice and I also think it's pretty Look, there's no pc way of putting in this. It's Um gross Well, not that giving it's gross, but I think immutable file systems are gross in some way Because here's the thing look here's the thing when it comes to immutable file systems They're all nice and fun until you give them to somebody who knows what they're doing And then and then they're like, I don't why why does this thing not want to let me do something basic in my own In my own file system And then oh, yeah, I will here's my this is this is where I was headed with my When I said if you give it to grandma, okay fine, but if you give it someone who knows what they're doing They're gonna be confused. Yeah Yeah, and well, I mean, I think a lot of distributions that are like All right, look as I was joking there, obviously, but but at the same time when it comes to immutable file systems I don't I think I think immutable file systems should Definitely have a place in linux. They're really good for a lot of things And most of my issues with immutable file systems not being like Distros that we're using them not like directly stating it like front and center that they are immutable file system Isn't really fair anymore because most immutable file system distros are like, you know, they They proudly tell you about it and it's like it's one of the main things on their website or wherever So that's not really much of an issue anymore But there were definitely when immutable file systems were just hitting mainstream There were a whole bunch of distributions that weren't immutable file system And like you could easily go and download it and never know it was immutable until it's installed And that can definitely throw you for a loop but and Where your argument also have proof for your argument is team deck and I know what I'm well, I'm a tinker I have a just I maintain a distro and everything and I know how to use linux somewhat So first thing I did on the on the steam deck Started installing native binaries instead of flatback because those packages didn't exist as flatback No machine The tool I use for remote desktop management because I access the steam deck on this computer Okay, so I want I want to put a pause on the conversation right now because the chat Chats like that i'm getting a headache for the conversation. No, I'm actually upset that tyler has a linux cast.org Eva address and I don't I gotta be honest. I didn't know I had one It doesn't exist. Okay. Oh, it's even better. It's literally dev null. Okay Sincerer cancelation request to a null email As I said before I was joking chill chill chill chill last week. He murdered a puppy this week. He's he's Anti-pride next week. He's he's definitely going to be a nazi. Okay It's it's a it's a sliding scale with this man.  Are you already at two? No, I have no strikes, but they don't care Oh, that's true It's the best podcast online bar none So as I was saying I have tools that I need Because I need to be able to access the steam deck when we have power and like during lunch I'm up here, but the office is downstairs and the steam deck is on When we have power Oh, I need to be able to access it to monitor some downloads and stuff So this tool doesn't exist as a flatback. So I installed it as a native package Because it's an immutable file system the steam deck received an update I lost everything. I had to reinstall reinstall everything and create a Josh here pushed me non-stop until I create finally caved in and created this restore script that will restore everything but so Yeah immutable file systems in the hands of people who know what they're doing. They feel limited We feel limited. We we feel like Have the choice but we can apply that choice because We are being limited by the file system itself because it's immutable. Yeah, that's actually one of the reasons that I I have so many I wouldn't say arguments But I have so many confused discussions with kudu about why he uses like silver blue and immutable file systems everywhere because If you don't see him in chat kudu is hangs out with me on discord a lot element Everywhere right now exactly.  It's great But if you know what you're going to be doing and you're going to be changing stuff Why use it?   You want sports car? Come on So yeah immutable and by the way josh, uh, I need to thank you again I keep thanking this guy. I don't know when the day will come. I would not say thank you to josh Uh Zero g is now using turtle Yeah, remember that Oh, yeah that yeah Yeah, I replaced the other one with that because the other one when you update something it doesn't immediately change You have to hit f5 This one immediately changes it works and it just got an update But anyway, sorry for the for the sidetrack, but immutable file systems not for tinkerers Uh, it's for people who who just want to install it and forget it Okay, don't want to do anything. They don't want to do anything So beginner users. I'm not saying beginner users just users. We just do nothing except browse the web Like this normies is You could have just said normies and we wouldn't need the explanation. All right So we could probably carry on with us for another half an hour But I think we've said most of the things that we need to say but before we do I am going to reiterate the fact of the week So one of the things I wanted to do is kind of put in a fact the week or the question the week or something like that That we can kind of put in this section before we move on to the thingies This week's fact of the week is did you know that there were over a hundred distributions by the year 2000? which is just kind of Blowing my mind considering the fact that linux was created in 1991ish, right? But didn't really come out until like 93 and all that stuff. Okay. It was it was a you know Alpha version in all the early years and then we have slack wear and debbie in in 93 And then it just kind of exploded over a hundred distros by the year 2000 um How many do we have now? Oh I didn't count that high. I literally uh Just just uh, look up like linux distro hierarchy chart or something like that Fancy graph that gives you like the like the primary distros on the left and then all Of the downstream branches of them. Yeah, and it has a timeline. That's how I came up with the hundred distributions By the way, that's how I got it. Um anyways Yes, so just an interesting fact something I thought we would do every week before we transition into Thingies the week which we are going to keep on doing because I think that they're awesome. So um Steve why don't you take us onto your thingy of the week, please? Wonderful thingy of the week. I keep talking about it with all retro gamers out there Especially because I used to be part of that of a team that used that piece of software Uh Is long gone by now they quit like a few months ago sad, but I'm just going to say howdy trolman Uh, anyway, uh, my pick of the week is butto sara Why did I pick butto butto sara because a lot of people when it comes to the steam deck And when you mention retro gaming and emulation her first thought secondary thought go to either emi deck or The other one Got the name of the other one So those are the two choices because those are the two things that people mention most Then about when it comes to emulation on the steam deck Butto sara I prefer butto sara a hundred times over these two Because it's an operating it's a linux operating system all on its own You can install on a separate sd card if you have large enough sd card for your ROMs That you legally rip All right You can flash it on an external hard drive or ssd whatever because Yeah, the steam deck you can boot into an external operating system Another operating system on an external drive so Completely separate from your steam deck. It doesn't clutter up your steam library and You don't have to switch to the desktop mode.  All you have to do is have your ROMs on On that thing or on an external thing And scrape them. That's all you have to do and run Everything is pre-configured and ready ready for you to get up and running and it's a linux distro Is it an actual independent distro because i'm not seeing anything that would be based off of It's I think based off of off of either debian or you're one. I don't remember Uh I don't know the nitty gritty of but it's debian because it's apt that apt apt get Hi, you can use that on ubuntu as well. So it's one of the two. It's a debian derivative at some point Yeah, it's a debian derivative It doesn't have a desktop Say I think they added a desktop at some point. I think it's excess Ubuntu 2204 what they're based off of Yeah, okay. I knew that but It it's something debian. I didn't know exactly what but it was most probably the ubuntu Uh, but the the best part of it is is it's completely isolated from the steam deck It doesn't clutter up anything. You don't have a million things installed on the steam deck You don't have to tinker around just to get things I think it's already preset up flash it you download an image you flash it Start dumping ROMs scrape them the scraping part is it takes a while because You're limited to uh two threads because as a free user You have to donate to get more threads the more threads you have faster your You're scraping go All right, they're also limited by servers and connections, but other than that it makes your Emulation either see it turns the steam deck into emulation heaven. That's cool. It's just Tyler you're thinking of the week, please Uh, my thing of the week is night will like all Special Night will night will oh dude. Oh freaking wish It should be sipping some night will right now, but no my my thing of the week Pretty simple. Um, it's nothing too special Daisy it's not an open source application Or game at all.   It's great fun. Um, you should come play it with us. Uh, if you don't We're definitely gonna bully you later on. It's totally fine And look if you can't afford it on steam because it is like 40 45 bucks on steam Just don't buy it there. Uh, you can go and pick it up for like 25 bucks Somewhere else like just search daisy like global steam key or whatever and you'll find it Also steam has that stuff on sale all the time Yes, they do but if you go there and it's not on sale and they're trying to charge 45 bucks for it Just go buy a key somewhere else.   All right. I'll just I'll just try to be annoying Shoot messages off into the acid way to do that and I'll tell you hey, man. I'm not even at the computer right now Playing my phone. All right, uh Josh, you're taking you that thing of the week, please My thing here the week is actually ohio linux fest, which I am wearing the shirt for last year's ohio linux fest It is happening next month, uh, september 8th and 9th, which by the way, it's in columbus, ohio Which means that it's within driving distance of both of you guys and not Steve So you should you should come we can hang out See the problem with it is that I had to visit ohio and And probably that is that I have to visit michigan to get you a steak If I have to go to michigan to get you a steak yet, you can How about this how about this if someone can cover Our tickets like me and matt's tickets for it I'll drive and pick up matt and we'll come like I'll drive up to michigan pick his ass up I'm 100 serious when I say that I do not want to visit the state of ohio Okay, if it was the indiana linux fest, I'd go Okay, but ohio it's your problem, but ohio. We just go to a nice.  Kentucky. We got this in the way keeping me away from all those crazy alabama people Michigan the home of the of the northern rednecks. We got it No, no, no come on, man. You've seen them canadian like, you know, the they're like mounted horse units supposedly the The best I don't know if you guys know this but we're surrounded by lakes Those fuckers don't know what to do with water. Okay That is true. That is true. You're surrounded by lakes. Send me some water. Please. We're dry over here It's not good water, you know on it. You can't have it. It's ours My water's got algae from michigan firm runoff By the way guys by the way guys, I want to ask Some of you some of you not yet because sider's got a thingy as we do Well technically matt does but still What do you have to say see you you don't matter Yeah, I'm not even here Okay, girl. So do your thingy of the week because I have a question to ask and the viewers as well. Okay Um, I don't even remember my thinking that we guess It's sinny by the way If you are interested in using matrix, but you don't want to use the crap that is element use sinny It's much better.  I mean seriously. Um, we actually want to talk to people. That's just completely lame Sinny is text-based only which means you never have to Jab with anybody And you can just go check there and lurk as much as you want, which is what I've been doing I don't actually talk on there. I just lurk Um, but there are people in the in both Midas my matrix and tylers. I just I just read their messages. Um, you guys are fantastic for keeping it You know alive But I'm not going to talk to you. I do have to agree on your choice because uh element is a He's a doodoo.  It is bad. It is it is it is I tried sinny and I'm sinny so clean in comparisons so clean Yep, I think you would really like and heco steve because it it integrates with kde theming very nicely So-called and heco And h e k o Can't be a kde application if it doesn't start with a k Um, just those the rules All right, uh, steve real quickly. What was your question? Okay, my question to all y'all uh is um Please help me. Uh, I I can't figure out what laptop to get for linux And not not not not two thousand dollars, please think bad used think pad seriously Oh, no, but I need something powerful enough to be able to compile zero linux Used think bad seriously A t4 70 probably nice You just For 70 it could be like a first gen carx one. Yeah, like yeah, what price are we talking about here? Uh, you can or like three to like 500 dollars somewhere in there. Yeah, really? Yeah, you can find them Yeah, I mean, I've seen them on the ebay for like 389. Yeah, so the thing about think pads is that They they are made for business users, which means that they that they are relatively powerful and uh As they're not really intended for like a consumer product They have amazing linux support because they they the think pad is the is technically the developer machine for a lot of software projects Which means that it's good Also, if you have to replace a piece of hardware in it like a keyboard or something like that It's like the easiest thing you ever have to do Yeah, but is it powerful enough to compile zero linux on like we're talking? Yeah Yeah, you can compile on it. No problem. What do you think I was compiling zero linux on last time? Just make sure you get A fairly modern cpu like a one that's three or four years old and get enough ram. I mean seriously like I'm thinking ryzen I mean, you can do ryzen. They have a little right. They've had done had they've had ryzen versions for Quite a while. So they have used versions all over the place. Thank you. Thank you I was thinking the one the one I found was Lenovo idea pad ad three something Uh, it was like ryzen 7 5700 you and eight gigs of ram and It's an apu the biggest the hold on the biggest thing that you're gonna have to keep in mind is when it comes to amd Everything is shared if you're gonna get an amd processor And you only get an eight gigabyte model.  I don't use suspend states. I don't use suspend states Do you close your laptop? No, not when yes, you do Not when it's on I just turn it off shut down You're weird. Well that that is an option too. But when it comes to idle power consumption, which I'll be honest with you Even on even on the laptop that you're using you're probably gonna spend a lot more time idling than what you think The intel is still much more efficient than than ryzen cpu As long as we're talking about like post-gen 10th generation Uh, after the podcast send me names of models that you that you recommend I'm sorry.  No of all things They are not x86. They are not x86 But they do exist So it's not even a real laptop. Yeah But thank you guys. Thank you guys after the podcast send me names of models you recommend I want to look at them and I don't buy used. I will never buy used. I I I still good No, no, I suffer multiple times Seriously By you we're talking used in lebanon. No, no, we're talking you It might be a market reasoning as to why is saying that just let me explain explain why it doesn't buy used Yeah, that's a good point Because here in lebanon when you say use Uh, imagine like, uh The a person advertising a slightly used car with minor dents and uh, When you go to buy the the car you you see it completely total Yeah, it's been in a junkyard for 18 years. Yeah, it's real data. Yeah, this is what we call used in lebanon It's missing a cpu. It's missing a gpu because they decided to desolder the damn things Uh, it's essentially what parts only would be over here. It's like it's like it's parts only but oh, yeah All the parts are also broken. So I sent some I sent a friend once to buy me because I saw a listing for a wonderful laptop Good specs whatever that was like 15 years ago. Uh, it was good price. It was like 45 dollars Uh, and I was like, yeah, go grab it When he paid the guy the money he took the laptop. He brought it to me. There was nothing inside it Battery No hard drive. No, no nothing. It was just a board If you actually had a shipping address what you could do I mean, it doesn't matter because you don't have Addresses here You love it. We have the the blue house with the blue window with the tinted windows next to the I don't understand your country, Steve, but I'm gonna leave it there Anyways, that is the linux cast. Um Wow one journey I think we had some fun here. I hope everybody had a had an entertaining time. Um, I think we We're here to entertain. I'm pretty I'm pretty sure we offended literally everybody. Um, so yeah, good. Um, I guess I don't know If I offended if I offended anyone call me Don't call me. I won't answer Anyways, uh, we record you answered like three times of the thousand times I've called you That's true. That is true. We record that's not fair though because you call me like 16 times in a row And if you and if you and if you want and if you want to call uh groucho over here, I have his number I'll I'll post it publicly.  What row? Nobody has my number It's unless I don't mind your number I bet you you can't um, we're in Lebanon. We have access to everybody's database. I thought that was Nigeria Well, was that too offensive for everybody To be honest I was reading chat It just went completely silent after I said that anyways, let's see, let's see, uh That's the historical magazine you're right for so, uh, we record this live every saturday at three o'clock pm eastern time Next week josh will be hosting that should be even more entertaining than literally Uh, any other podcast we've ever done it should be it should be fantastic So join us live coming from to you from the ipad from the Team deck everybody ever everybody in the chat right now. Just go to a match discord channel Uh pick a channel and just and just start shouting just like angry topics that we could talk about next week If it's not gen 2 it's not a podcast That that that has to be our sign off that has to the sign off If it's not gen 2 it's not a podcast with that Thanks everybody who does support me on patreon patreon.com slash linux cast you guys are all awesome Thank you for your support. I truly do appreciate it Thank you for if you support me on on youtube. I also do have kofi now. So ko that ko dash fi slash Don't yell at me steve Anyway You can head over there if you don't want to do the whole patreon thing and those of you are actually on patreon Finally, somebody agrees with um anyways deleted my patreon like two weeks Three weeks ago if steve would let me please finish this podcast. I'd appreciate I really really want to stop group podcasting now. Anyway, thank you for watching. We'll see you next time Bye


All right. I'm going to move us along. We have one announcement. Last week we received an update report from Dr. Heather Zierhut, who is the president of the National Society of Genetic Counselors. The report is a catalog of announcements and activities, including a recent release of online courses offered by NSGC. If you follow the work and activities of that society, I recommend this report to you. It is in the Electronic Council book under the open session items. The last task is to recite the conflict of interest language. This refers to the applications that you will be reviewing in close session tomorrow. You must leave the meeting room when applications submitted by your own organization are being individually discussed. In the case of state higher education or other systems with multiple campuses that are geographically separated, own organization is intended to meet the entire system, except when a determination is made, the components are separate organizations for the purpose of determining conflict of interest. You should avoid situations that would give rise to charges of conflict and interest, whether real or apparent. For example, you should not participate in the deliberations and actions on any application from or involving your spouse, child, recent student, recent teacher, professional collaborator with whom you are working closely, a close personal friend or a scientist with whom you have longstanding scientific or personal differences. The NSGRI staff will determine the appropriate actions for you based on recency frequency and the strength of such associations or interests, either positive or negative, and we will instruct you accordingly. In council actions in which you vote on a block of applications without discussing any individual one, for example the on block vote, your action will, your vote rather will not apply to any application from any institution, fulfilling the criteria noted above. Please sign the conflict of interest and disposal of confidential materials form that Comfort Brown has sent to you and return it to Comfort with your signature by email. So before we go to closure here we have one more activity, and that is it's time to say goodbye to some weary council members who have served their four year sentence on council. These lovely people even agreed to extend their service by an additional six months to help us deal with the problem of new council members not being onboarded in a timely fashion do the problems in the secretary's office. God bless you for that, and thank you for your patience and forbearance, helping us to transition so successfully to virtual council meetings over the past two years. So here are our departing members. Thank you, Mr. Boater. Technology development has been a mainstay of NHGRI's mission since our inception in the early 1990s. There's no greater champion of tech dev and Steve, who quietly and politely continues to remind us that faster cheaper and better quality will always be central goals in genomic research. Despite our sister institutes, genomic technologies help to advance research across all domains of biomedical research at NIH. So thank you Steve. Rafael Irizari. Rafael has been a steady voice on council to remind us of the importance of building and expanding our portfolio of R01 investigators, which we have done in all domains of genomic research and saw earlier today in the budget report. Rafael has also been an advocate for training opportunities and computational biology and data science, and has encouraged us to create opportunities for investigators from diverse backgrounds. Thank you, Rafa. Wendy Chang. We recruited Wendy to council to advise us on all things related to genomic medicine research, which she has done with distinction. But as often happens at council, we ask much more of her. Wendy accepted an important leadership role for the better part of the year to help us evaluate our training program. She then helped to develop recommendations about how the program should be expanded. We also leaned heavily on Wendy to help us design funding programs for research and educational opportunities for genetic counselors. Thank you Wendy, we will miss you. And Pat Deverka, we asked Pat to join council to help us with outcomes research and evaluations of our clinical trial projects. Pat also helped with many aspects of our genomic medicine research projects, the expansion of our training program and LC research programs as well. Thank you Pat. So we have some fairly disappointing frame government certificates for you, but we also will send you a handsome lusite cue, which Eric is showing. Let me tell them about this. First of all, it is not lusite. I mean this is real glass. Don't you think for a second it's lusite. So as is tradition, we have this beautiful obelisk, which will have your name engraved on it in the, you probably can't quite see but as a double helix etched within side of it.  On the other hand, I have heard from other council members who have to travel by air when they take this with them. This is an incredibly sharp point. Apparently TSA occasionally objects to the sharpness of this because you could hurt somebody with it. So look for it in your FedEx. You don't have to get it through TSA. And I would just like to personally say a huge thanks on behalf of NHRI for the four of you who are outgoing council members. I will miss you dearly. I know we're going to spend tomorrow together one last time in closed session, but I will miss the four of you dearly in future council meetings but we will keep your email. I know where all of you live and I hope to continue to see you all often. So thank you very much. And welcome back to the wonderful world of peer review. We look forward to working with you as well. Okay, Eric. Any final comments from you? No final comments. Rudy, great job. You really kept us on track. You said we'd be done by 430 and you've been giving us an extra 14 minutes. So all is good. Why don't you give us March the next set of marching orders? Right. So we're done for the day. You can hang up tomorrow's call starts at 11, 11 a.m. Eastern time and it's obviously a new meeting, but you should have the calendar invites. All closed session tomorrow. Just work in the council. All right. Thank you. Everybody have a nice evening and we will see you tomorrow. Thank you so much.


Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Off the Hill, the ANU's weekly look at what's been happening in the 2016 federal election campaign. As always I'm joined by my co-hosts, constitutional law expert Ryan Goss and political marketing expert Andrew Hughes. And as always if you're in Canberra on Tuesday night, come along to our weekly public policy forum. This week it's talking about climate change, energy and the environment. All the details that you need on the ANU website at anu.edu.au. Now we've had a think this week about who is actually watching at this point, who are we talking to in regards of the election and who is really at this point still thinking about who they might vote for. Now from 2013 we have some kind of idea of this that about 50% of people don't even think about how they vote. We've asked this in the Australian election study. They knew long ago. They've never really given it any thought. About a third decide during the campaign at some point. That's kind of good to know. But 10% decide on election day. On the day itself. On the day itself. And this is self-reported. This is what they say they do. About half of those seem to be actually really rational. Really cautiously thinking about the issues. They're just taking their time to come to their own decision. About half of those just don't care. Now what do you think about this Andrew? Oh look it's natural to me because after all you know you think about politics for most people. Us yes we're involved with it. We're interested and engaged with it. Most people no. I mean most people there's an issue or two. Yeah where it's nice it's hot. It's something they care about. But politics overall they don't really give much thought to it. Well that's that 50% really. Exactly right. Who don't think. They don't engage. They vote usually for who their parents voted for. Yeah exactly. And look you can play this a bit too as a politician like Turnbull has. He's made his campaign nice and boring, nice and flat. And it's a good tactic. It's a good strategy because then people don't get engaged. There's no traction or momentum to be gained by the opposition. They have to take all the running with this. Because they know people aren't listening. They're going to switch off in a long campaign. You could say anything by week five. We could say anything in week five. I'll just stop you there. I think there's also an appetite after the last six or ten years for boring politics I think that for a long time there whether it was the hung parliament or the leadership schools people had to pay attention and felt obliged to pay attention to what was going on in politics. But there's a craving to not have to do that. Yeah but I think maybe after that period and people have just gone I've had enough of politics for a bit. It was so negative and it was so nasty and it was so really personal too. It wasn't on issues. People just went why be engaged if all you guys could do is hate each other. And I think we've had enough of that at the moment. Now I think and I don't like doing this but I think overnight we've heard that this isn't always the case. Yeah and very sad news overnight of the death of Joe Cox the killing of Joe Cox on the streets of London campaigning in the context of the EU Brexit referendum. The facts aren't entirely clear at this stage but it's a reminder that politics can have real impacts on the people who are practicing it and the practitioners in politics and that we perhaps owe a little bit more sympathy to our politicians some of the time and to remember that they're motivated by almost all of the time by good intentions and honorable intentions. Yeah absolutely. But I think more generally it's also a reminder that you know there are many people in Australia who are disengaged from politics. The difference that in Australia compared to many other countries is that all of those people are obliged to vote. A compelled to vote which is not the case in the US or the UK or Canada or these places. And so I think that creates a different dynamic in Australia and also just and the fact that we've had a quarter of a century without a recession we've had been pretty comfortable in Australia for 25 years. One could be forgiven for thinking that that politics didn't matter and that it was a logical choice not to pay too much attention. There is a strong argument that compulsory voting almost creates an environment of stability. Yeah. That we do have to think about politics occasionally and that it's good for us but that we don't think about it in these huge spikes up and down heaps of passion that we see in a lot of other countries. Yeah we've heard it's many changes as Prime Ministers too where there hasn't been much really to upset people. People have seen those changes and gone okay well it was due to this issue or that issue we haven't been that concerned over the future of our democracy. True. Now one place that I know you both passionate about and we're people are passionate about politics is Queensland. Andrew. Bob Catter our force for the North right. He love him. Yeah look and and Queensland itself is interesting because of the dynamics in the campaign all those marginal seats you have to win them to win government overall. And there's like nine I think they've identified now all the way up the Queensland coast starting all the way from basically Brisbane itself going as far north as Cairns and Cape York. So you know it's a huge geographical area huge diversity turf opinions and views. And and Turnbull's doing very very well in Brisbane itself this is the thing to note which is why it's really hard at the moment for Labor to get traction in Queensland. They're trying their best they're up there all the time they're sending people up there all the time. But Brisbane isn't Queensland. No it's not. To a large extent.  I'm surrounded by. Well Andrew doesn't speak to me I'm a Queenslander but but but I think in political terms the dynamic is is is different in Queensland in so many ways but one of the ways in which it's different is that there are two Conservative parties in Queensland that are quite powerful the National Party is the main or the remnants of the National Party is the main Conservative force in Queensland which is true of no other state and that continues to be true particularly outside of Brisbane but you see a dynamic where Brisbane itself begins to look like Sydney and Melbourne in the sense that the Liberal Party is the increasingly the major Conservative political force and there's that tension within the Conservative side of politics but also between Labor and those other two points of the triangle. And then and then outside of that you have Cata and you raised Cata now Cata this week has caused all kinds of controversy but that's but this is his MO right. Yeah exactly right and look he's the no filter politician of Australia. So we're talking about his ad here. Exactly right I mean he's ad he's like everything he talks about usually is done to get awareness and get a reaction to what he's saying. It's not about what he's saying necessarily it's about the reaction to what he's saying. Yeah awareness and reaction is slightly different. Exactly right so in this case his ads all about getting that reaction from people and this time look in the context of what's happened now in the last week across the world it looks bad and it is bad. It's kind of toned down. There are other ways to get responses like that not using that sort of issue and number one in politics go the issue not the person. We're talking about him so look he's one right. I know you say that right but come on we have to talk about him and do. And and and he's successfully obtained attention even here on even here on off the hill so I think that's mission accomplished for Bob Cata. That's true he was he was hoping to get out again. He's watching right now that's a Bob. Hello. Now on preferences we do have to move on. On preferences this has been the other thing of the week the other the other side issue with which we're all mildly obsessed but we can't quite say why. Now I don't I think preferences are a big deal and there will be deal because they have two different effects right one is this instrumental effect that yes about 50 percent of the population do use how to vote cards when they apportion their preferences right so they it has a strong effect on election day. It helps low information voters most of him wouldn't vote if they weren't compelled so you know we're helping them along the way. The other thing is that it has this really fun expressive effect and that's what we've seen for instance in the seat of Sydney where you know well the Greens have now backtracked where they were going to preference the the Fred Nile Christian Democratic Party candidate over the you know who they sort of thought was a very urbane gay indigenous liberal candidate. Now what do you think about all this Ryan. Well I think the the as you say the trading of preferences or the apparent trading preferences at this stage of the campaign is really about sending a message to voters that we think the Greens are worse than this party we think the Christian Democrats are worse than this party we think wave is better than these guys but I think it's worth remembering in this campaign different to every campaign in living memory that the trading of preferences is really only about what goes on the how to vote card in the past before the Senate voting changes it fed into behind the scenes mathematical counting of the votes that's not the case now it's only the case if voters pay attention to those how to vote cards well remember that there's still about half of the half of all voters and the Senate I think will really help this year in terms of using how to vote cards because people are going to be confused we know this from the 84 changes that you know people turn up once every three years and say oh I haven't voted what do I do now on the expressive front yeah well exactly right preferences work as a way of expressing who you should vote for a second and so this is you know number one if you're thinking about how to vote this weekend you know vote vote one us it's your primary vote primary preference in other words is number one who do you want number one to represent your point of view secondly it comes into it is like okay well if it's not us it's these guys yep so in a way it's acting as cues to your overall audiology and also it's a great way sometimes of localizing a campaign and making it more important at a local level so you know maybe yeah okay you're good in Canberra but you recognize that these other guys here they're really great as well they're doing stuff you think you can recognize with an express with and connect with give them your second your second choice and it's a reminder isn't it that we're having 150 local elections as much as we're having one exactly we talked about this earlier on in in the show for those who watch all the way through to this point but all of you all of you that that um how someone we've seen state-based campaigns in the Senate it's been a long time since we've seen state-based campaigns being run in the Senate. Nick Xenophon isn't just one of them okay I know enough I know enough about Nick Xenophon but look locally yeah we're seeing some really strong campaigns emerging out this part of the um election period where we're seeing some really great independence come up with ideas and some big battles happening independence though and that's the big right the major parties aren't doing this against Barnaby Joyce Barnaby said to come out and go even more to the right to seem as though he like he's going the Bob Catter approach oh if you saw his statement the other night on on tv on on abc or he made his um his his announcement he said to the big guys you know I'm the guy from the bush Dana he has to do that because he's not getting that momentum against the independent tiny Windsor that's the thing I don't know I think Barnaby's got runs on the board here thoughts for the week um two thoughts the week for me one is that I hear that the Nick Xenophon team is making some inroads in Queensland and it might be picking up some of those Palmer votes that for people who are looking to put their votes somewhere other than the major parties and the second thought is if Britain votes to leave the EU next week we could see major economic consequences quickly and that could have an impact on the campaign yeah my final thoughts is the economy has been bubbling away there for a while now I think we've got to start to see it ramp up again particularly with Brexit being talked about it's you know it's really happening again to with on the weekend Bill Shorten hitting Tasmania making more promises he has to pay for these somehow gets getting back to the revenue generation discussion we've not had yet in the campaign that is utterly boring I think this week's going to be all about Oakshot and Windsor yep and I think Oakshot in particular and let's see what they have to say who's that again we'll remember in time again thanks for watching and we'll see you next week