Aloha, welcome to Think Tech Hawaii's broadcast of the State of Clean Energy. Today we have our co-host Sharon Moriwaki from Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. My name is Jeff Ono. I'm an attorney at Watanabe Ying and a poor excuse for a substitute for Jay Fidel. No. Terrific. We have our special guest Mina Morita, former state legislator, former chair of the Public Utilities Commission, and now a consultant in energy issues. But before we get to our special guest, we have the Negawatt moment. Hawaii energy. Hawaii energy's Negawatt moment. We have Karen Iha here to tell us Hawaii Energy's community involvement. So of course April is Earth Month and we've been really busy with Hawaii energy. We've been out there in the community trying to get some energy efficiency programs going. We've been out there in the community just doing regular just community service. So this past Saturday a few of us went down to the Kaneohe side and went into the low e and helped pick weeds, got in the mud and got down and dirty, but yeah it was really fun to be out in the community and representing Hawaii energy. So it's not just energy stuff. Not just energy stuff. Just energy. But you know we're out there doing energy savings too. So we're out in Waianae with Catholic Charities and just helping them with the shelters, trying to get energy savings for them, water savings for them and we have a little clip for you too. Okay let's look. One of a number of Hawaii shelters, transitional housing and affordable permanent housing places. Where Hawaii energy is working to help substantially lower it. It's just such a close knit community lifestyle here. We wanted to go ahead and preserve that and also in trying to alleviate some of the energy burden that they might have in their situation, whatever it may be. Again, just very simple energy efficiency measures we've realized that we can make an impact on both their monthly income. Oh this is so important. It's so important for not just for the families but I think also for the environment itself. You know, it helps a lot, it saves a lot and educates people on the importance of conserving and saving energy. Meanwhile in town, Hawaii energy performs the same types of retrofits and Catholic Charities of Hawaii. A three-story short-term housing facility that helps struggling families get back on their feet. Well the residents are like single moms so their budget is very limited so whatever they can save on energy, water and Catholic Charities because they own the property, it will save on the pool. If you have all the measures installed by us, which is the water measures and the lighting retrofits. Typically a two-bedroom, one-bath unit could save about $160 a year. The cost of living, the electric bills, you know, it's just so expensive. So, you know, that's what Hawaii energy does, you know, really, really appreciates. Yeah, so we've been out there with Boys and Girls Club of Hawaii, Boy Scouts of America and the Big Island. So we've been around and, you know, we really enjoy being out in the community and really serving the people who, you know, need to be served. So how does my charity get one of these offers? Give us a call, give us, give our office a call anytime or send us an email and we'd be glad to do just a walk-through and see what we can do as far as energy. So anybody can call? Yes. And what is that number to call? And it's area code<PHONE_NUMBER>. I just want to make one pitch for Hawaii energy. Yes. As a former consumer advocate, people wonder what that public benefit fee is on their bill. It goes to Hawaii energy. Energy efficiency benefits everyone. So thank you for what you do, Kevin. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, and thanks for watching Think Tech Hawaii. My name is Justine Espiritu and I host the Hawaii Food and Farmer series with my co-host Matthew Johnson of Iwaku Fresh. Every week we bring on farmers as well as all the other individuals and organizations that help support a thriving, sustainable food system. In fact, it's interesting to learn what others are doing so you don't have to be a Hawaii resident or producing food on Hawaii to be featured on the show. Like today's guest, Wyatt Bryson of Jewels of the Forest and Michael Lab Solutions. Aloha. Thank you. It's been a pleasure being on the show. I love seeing what you guys do and I really support your mission. And it's really nice being back in Hawaii. And thank you again. It's an honor. So you can see guests like Wyatt every Thursday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii. Thank you. Well, Mina, we're here to talk about house bill number 1580. Can you just tell us briefly what house bill 1580 is? Well, through its various reiteration, I think what they were trying to do is establish a goal similar to the renewable portfolio standards for transportation. And it's in conference right now. I haven't seen the conference draft, but I think the basic concept from its inception was transportation targets for the elimination of fossil fuel types of fuels. Just for ground transportation. Just for ground. That sounds like a great thing to do. Do you think there are benefits to having a bill like this? Well, I think it's useful to establish benchmarks moving forward. But this is my personal view. That's why we have you here. For something like the renewable portfolio standards, it's sort of difficult because you have an aspirational golden statue. And really, when you start putting these benchmarks in statue, it's actually the floor, not the ceiling, and the floor to develop markets or incentives to move in a certain direction, and again, not the ceiling, just the floor. So what are the potential negative consequences of doing that? Well, I think especially for ground transportation goals, it's sort of difficult because unlike the electricity sector where the electric utility is responsible for hitting these benchmarks and they're held accountable for these benchmarks, on the transportation side, there's no entity that is responsible. And a lot of this is driven by consumer choices. What kind of vehicles you want to drive, the cost of fuel, what's available. And Hawaii's not known to drive markets. Larger states like California, big countries like China, India, are seen as the real drivers for the transportation sector. And we go along for the ride. So I think that's some of the difficulties that we face moving forward with these kinds of goals in the transportation sector. What about on the positive side? Do you think that it will get consumers to say, hey, I'm going to get out of my car? Because I think in Hawaii especially, people are so wedded to their cars because they have to take trips everywhere and take grandma here and the children there and they have soccer and all of that. So what, if any benefit, might there be, would it send a message, hey, get out of your car or what can be done or what can government do or what does it make government do? Well, I think there's a lot of focus on early adoption and wanting to provide incentives for early adoptions like more electric vehicles. But there's a larger issue here as we go forward. Many times these early adoption policies keep rewarding the same people. For example, with rooftop solar, you have a certain segment of the population that took advantage of this. But again, it's only a small section of the population, a small segment of the population. And then these same people are taking advantage of the electric vehicle tax credits rebates. And, you know, it's likely that these same people, if we have a separate energy storage tax credit, will benefit again. So I think the larger issue here is what kind of policies can we develop that are truly transformative that really benefit everyone in the state. And you can go ahead and say it, you know, you're talking about the wealthy, that segment of the population. Yeah, kind of like the 1%, but here at least 25% of, for example, electricity customers benefit from. But where ground transportation is concerned, you know, we need to have the necessary infrastructure if we're really going to switch away from petroleum-based fuels. So how do we get that infrastructure in if we don't, you know, plan ahead and make sure that, you know, it's available so when people want to buy the electric car, they know there's going to be a charging station available. Yeah, I think, you know, that's one problem that needs to be addressed. But I think there's a larger issue with regard to transportation fuels. And it's the whole field infrastructure that has been an ongoing problem for us for many years. If you look at how the refineries were first developed, it was efficiency was the most, you know, top of mind. You know, how do you get these refineries to operate as efficiently as possible to process that barrel of oil to be used in the state? Now with different technologies coming in, different customer preferences, the desire towards a low-carbon, no-carbon future, you know, the operational efficiencies of the refineries being challenged. And so, you know, less than three years ago, we're looking at one or both refineries going out of business. We have two new owners of refineries. So what's the dynamics happening there? We had the refinery task force report that came out. None of the problems regarding the field infrastructure has been addressed. And I think, you know, we really have to look at the bottlenecks there because if we're looking at importing fuels, we have some barriers as to the importation, the storage of fuels, which, you know, relate to security issues, fuel security issues. We started the series with the question of the fuel refinery task force and what the report was, and where are we? Do we have to go back to it? You know, in terms of you folks being on it, that task force, and where... I was a task force. Where is that? And do we need to return to it? Or are we, you know, are we beyond it? You know, what are the issues that we should start looking at now for the future? Well, I think again, you know, it's... You know, we do have this desire towards more renewable fuels, but I think a major objective for us is field diversity and cost and low-carbon or no-carbon. So how do we take those goals and incorporate it into whatever fuel infrastructure that we develop? And, you know, one of the things we've learned over the last four weeks in this program is that, you know, each of these industries affects the, you know, the energy sector in another industry. So whether we're talking about motor transportation, airline transportation. Last week we talked a little bit about maritime transportation and electricity sector. They're all interrelated and they all affect what happens at the refineries. Sharon, you're with the Energy Policy Forum. You know, do you feel that we have adequate planning in this state that incorporates all of these various sectors? No, and I think this is why we keep harping on the need for better planning and getting together and having a discussion. There was an interest by Department of Transportation pulling together the Clean Transportation Forum or Sustainable Transportation Forum where they had, I'm really focused on ground transportation. Although we heard from Darrell last week that the marine transportation and looking at the infrastructure and the harbors, as well as, you know, we haven't talked about air, but air is also an important factor, although we don't have as much control. All of that is intertwined and we really need to look at planning from a broader perspective and a bigger framework than we have now. We've been talking about this for years. We talked about energy-efficient transportation. I think at one point we were saying, well, how do we create a transportation paradise? And that was in 2009. So, you know, we really do need to have better plans and some targets, but more reasonable and looking at it more comprehensively. One of the things HB1580 calls for is a working group to set some goals. So, Mina, is that adequate for the kind of energy planning that you're talking about? No, I think there has to be more emphasis on energy planning and it has to need interagency cooperation, cooperation between the public sector and the private sector and political will. And I think we need the recognition that this isn't a simple problem and this has to go beyond political cycles, that this is a massive planning endeavor that goes beyond political cycles where major investments need to be made. And so, you have the two refineries about to make significant investments in upgrading their facilities. We need to give them direction on what we anticipate for the future that they can have some certainty in as they make these investments. It's not only the two refineries, but you also have Hawaii gas in the same situation. And again, while it's nice to have a focus on renewable fuels and no carbon fuels, there has to be this realization of what's practical, what's pragmatic as we move forward. For a lot of our, especially commercial industrial needs, there's no substitution. And so, again, how do we move forward with a no-regret strategy that lays the foundation to take us to a low-no-carbon future as we move forward? Sure. We're not going to be experimenting with the airline industry with fuels. I mean, they're going to be dependent upon jet fuel, petroleum-based jet fuel for a long time to come. And if our tourist industry is going to continue, we're going to need to have sufficient quantities of jet fuel here. And so I think the focus needs to be on what are the cleanest fuels that we can either produce locally or import that will give us competitive pricing and really give us better efficiencies and reduction in emissions. Well, I guess maybe we started looking at what, if we were to dream forward, what would be the framework or what would we need to be looking at or who should be at the table to provide that leadership so that we are going forward in terms of having the kind of infrastructure needed, in terms of having the parties all at the table knowing what's ahead. And I think that's where the market also needs to be involved with what the state is envisioning for the future and how might we plan that or how might the state plan that going forward. Right. I think, you know, Department of Business, Economic Development and Tourism always had a real significant role in energy planning. And that energy planning was the entire energy ecosystem. You know, they've come up with some really big strategic plans that happened, I think almost 10 years ago. I don't think we've seen any significant updates to the energy strategy since then. There's been a lot of focus on electricity and definitely electricity has been that disrupter in, you know, kind of moving away from that efficiency of that barrel of oil. So it's like, you know, how do we update these plans and how do we address the issues that were brought out in the refinery task force findings that were pretty significant. Well, one of the things the refinery task force concluded was that by 2020, which is only three years away, that one or both refineries would shut down. And I think in the previous shows, you know, we've kind of concluded that maybe we have a reprieve. We've got low oil prices. We have new owners of the refineries. And so that 2020 date might be extended out sometime, you know, in the future. But I don't think the bottom line conclusion that one or both refineries will eventually shut down in the near future has changed. So, you know, what should we do to plan for that? I mean, you know, there were conclusions that were made, recommendations made in the task force report. And as you said, there's been very little follow-up. What do we need to do about it? Do we reconvene the task force? I would think so. I would hope so because, again, the function of the refineries might change. I mean, they may not be refining, but they may be importing. And, you know, you can't deny that there are far more efficient refineries out there, far more cleaner refineries out there.  We have to balance energy security against the fact that it may be cheaper for us to import fuels rather than refining. Refining doesn't close down, but it shifts in function and what it does. So that, you know, looking to the future, what is the function that we want to save? And it might be, you know, something cheaper and cleaner. How do they shift so that they're looking to the future, but they need some, you know, some kind of message. Beacon, where are we going to go? Right, right. Yeah, and I think that's, you know, the key issue that this lack of awareness of all these interdependencies that involve the refinery and companies like Hawaii Gas. Let me switch subject just a little bit, because you had talked about pragmatic solutions. There are some people who say, you know, we're just missing the bolt when we keep talking about petroleum-based products. The key is hydrogen. What do you think about hydrogen? Are we, you know, missing the bolt by not looking at hydrogen and really investing in hydrogen technology? Yeah, well I think with any technology, things are advancing and it's, when do you make your significant investments? And we all know that it may not be the right time to invest in fuel cells except for specific situations where you may get really good value. Like for example, if you really want that reliability and you're willing to pay a high dollar for that reliability, maybe fuel cells is the right solution for that specific circumstance. But in general, the timing may not be right and so timing is everything but how do you set up your foundational structure so you can enter at the right time? Yeah. That is a challenge. And you know, I'm a big hydrogen proponent from the early 2000s and I always thought it as a means of energy storage for the amount of renewables we have here through electrolysis and so I'm still hopeful for that hydrogen vision but again, timing is everything and as we move forward, we have to make significant investments in new infrastructure so we have to be really cognizant of cost issues on consumers. We've got about a minute left Sharon. Do you want to summarize our April hydrocarbons and clean energy? Oh thank you Jeff. This was a really great series on hydrocarbons. You know, we've been talking about this and now we're going to shift to renewables but we brought out the realities of looking at the infrastructure, looking at all the parties involved and really the need for real good planning going forward and I think the leadership did just say okay this is the foundational issues that we have to deal with so we have to come back again and do this. Yeah, in 10 years we'll do it again. Good job. Oh thank you Sharon. Thank you. No, thank you. So are we going to... Oh and next week... Oh and next week we're going to start with the legislature and what happens. So Mina is going to be coordinating all of that and coming in next week. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the series with one second left? Yeah, so it's sort of a legislative wrap-up on energy policy and granted not too many bills move so it's talking to the watchers, people who are watching this legislation and getting their input, talking to the makers, the legislators that were involved and then touching on the implementers, those that have to implement the laws as we move forward so that's how that series is kind of shaping up to be. It's going to be exciting. It'll be good to hear. Yeah and hopefully, even though we just ended this legislative session we always have our eye on the next session. The next session. I want to thank you Sharon and our friend Jay Fidel for allowing me to co-host these last four shows. It's been a lot of fun. Aloha.