Okay. All right, the recording is on. Welcome everyone to the course BC310 on Church and Ministry Administration. It's good to have all of you back. Nice to see you all. Nice to see all of you back in class and thank you for connecting. All right, let's pray and get started and then, you know, we'll do the introduction to the course and get into it. Let's pray together. Father, we thank you that we could come back together as a college, as students and start a new semester, a new year, a new academic year. Thank you for the journey so far. And Lord, we pray that as we journey together in this course, call that you give us your wisdom. Give us, fill us Lord, with your understanding and the things that we need to learn, things that need to be written into our hearts and minds.  Let it be established in our hearts and minds. We pray for all those who are in-person, online and will be doing this on e-learning. May this course be a blessing to each and every student and may it help us serve you well and serve your people well in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you everyone. Let me just go ahead and share the screen, share the notes that can get started. Can you all see the PDF that I'm sharing? Okay. So this PDF is available in the app poster and the coursework, the classwork section so you can take it from there. What are we going to learn in this course on church and ministry administration? One of the things that we need to, I guess, embrace is that we need to combine our depth in the word of God, the spirit of God with good, skillful organization and administration so that our churches, our ministries can be not only an effective vehicle for the power of God, but you can also serve people well, that we can preach, impact and serve many people. So we must understand that we need to combine these two, combine the depth in the word of God and in the spirit with good organization and administration. On the other hand, if somebody may be very anointed, somebody may be very gifted, somebody may be very good in the word and spirit, but if they don't combine their spiritual gifting with the practical side of proper administration and organization, then their reach and their impact will be limited and sometimes they may even struggle, find difficult things difficult in the ministry, not because they don't have the anointing of God fully gifted and called by God, but because they don't have the proper, call it a support system, the organization, the administration is not there and so sometimes even things could come to a halt if they don't have that good support system. So what we're going to do in this course is, I'm going to just share a lot of what we've been doing here at ABC and also best practices, things that we can learn from others, other churches, other ministries, other organizations on the practical side, on the organization and administration side of the local church. The focus context of course is a local church, but if you're doing any other ministry, you know, maybe running a music ministry or a youth ministry or a building ministry, you can also use many of these things in that context. These are all transferable ideas, so they're not, although we are going to be speaking from the context of a local church, these ideas can be used for any ministry. So we'll get some of the things that we're going to cover in this course is, you know, we'll start up by talking about why is good administration important when we're talking about spiritual ministry, you know, church and Christian ministry. Why do we need good administration? What are some of the objectives that we wish to achieve through good organization and administration? We'll start off with the formation of a legal entity that is the church trust and governance. So that's the first step, you need to create a legal entity in order to, you know, legally function in any country. Then, you know, how do you give this thing, this legal entity shape and structure, the organization structure. We will talk about policies, guidelines and standards. We'll talk about systems and processes that we put in place. It's almost like setting up the machinery that's needed to do things. We will talk about church staff, human resource management, talk about the culture in the workplace. We'll talk about the finance side of things, you know, how do you manage the finances? This is very important. We can't go wrong in this area. Some legal aspects, of course, the legal aspects will vary from country to country, but you know, how is an organization, how do you manage that? How do you keep that in check? Then we talk about planning and coordination. So a lot of activities that are happening in the church has to be planned and coordinated. So how do you do that? How do you set up ministry teams to do different ministries in the church? How do you set up volunteer teams? You know, a lot of things, especially in the church or the Christian ministry, there are a lot of volunteers involved. People are contributing their time, their energy, their effort. So how do you take care of volunteers? The church culture, a little bit on project management. How do you execute projects? How can you leverage technology? And how do you pursue excellence? So these are kind of things we're going to cover. It's a wide, wide, you know, area, a lot of things, but hopefully, you know, we will give you, share with you key things, key points or key thoughts here in each of these areas that you can use to build upon. Next semester, we'll have a separate course on media and technology in ministry where we kind of get into a greater detail on leveraging technology, get into the details of media and technology, how you can use that. So in this course, I'll just introduce you to the ideas, different things that can be done and what are you doing. I'll give a quick overview, but in our next semester, in that course on media and technology, we're going to get a little bit more deeper into how you can use media and technology in ministry. So we'll have one assessment. I think I'll put it at the end of the course. It'll be three parts covering three sections of this entire course. They'll be pretty simple, straightforward, open book, open notes and nothing complicated just to give you a good review of the course. Yeah, so we're going to get started. Let me pause. Are there any questions about the course, about what we're going to cover? Anybody has any questions? All right. No questions. Let's get started. Let's get into the course. So in lesson one, I'm sharing the PDF back to the PDF. Lesson one, what is the importance of good administration, especially from a church or a Christian ministry perspective? Because sometimes people can say, hey, this is God's work. He doesn't need us. He doesn't need us putting our brains and organizing and planning. It will just happen. Give the Holy Spirit free flow. Don't interfere, etc. So there are a lot of things that people can say which are actually against the idea of organization and administration. So how do we bring these two perspectives together and get a biblical understanding of this? So I want us to think about some things here from the scriptures. First of all, in the Bible, we see that God himself is a God of order, design, organization and creativity. So even in the things that God does, right from chapter one in Genesis, God didn't just say, hey, just everything come. You can think about it. God is doing it. Genesis one says, on the first day, he did this. Second day, he did this. Third day, he did this. He just didn't say, hey, everything just come. He could have, he didn't have to do it over six days. He didn't have to be organized in that sense, do certain things on day one and day two. So there itself, we have seen in Genesis chapter one that for whatever reason, God is doing things in a very organized way. In, you could even say, in a very planned way. He planned day one, this will happen. I'll do this. Day two, I'll do this. Day three, I'll do this. Day four. So he planned and then day seven, God rested. It's not like he needed to rest. Oh, I have spent so much energy. I'm tired. No. It was very intentional. It was something he designed. So we can therefore, it is safe to say that our God is a God of order, design, and he's, of course, creator. He's this creativity in all that he's doing, but he's also very organized, planning his work. Yeah. We can look at some scriptures and when we come to 1 Corinthians 14, it's a well-known chapter there. 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul is addressing having order in the church, and he kind of sums up all his instruction in 1 Corinthians 14. And the last verse, verse, but not like verse 33, we can look at verse 33, and also verse 40, 1 Corinthians 14, 33 and 40. He says in verse 33, I'll check if you want to read verses 33 and verse 43. Oh, you don't have the mic. Okay. Never mind. I'll just read it. It's okay. I'll read. God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all the churches of the saints. And then verse 40, he says about what happened to the church. He says that all things be done decently and in order. So God is not the author of confusion. He doesn't want this chaos in that sense of things happening randomly, arbitrarily, without order. But instead, God is the God of order, let all things be done decently and in order. So while there's creativity, and God is powerful and God is omnipotent, he's still very orderly in the way he does this. It is true. He's omnipotent. He's all powerful. Nothing's containing his power, but he's still doing it intentionally in a very orderly way, very planned way, decently and in order. Now, there are many other examples we can look in the old test. I mean, I'll just mention a few. When we see how God, and you read about this in the book of numbers, and we can read the first 10 chapters in the book of numbers, God, as if leading the people out of Egypt to the land of Canaan, once they come out of Egypt, they cross the Red Sea. After that, God is saying, okay, Moses, I want you to organize the people. So he had given instruction to Moses to build the tabernacle. And then he tells them, I want three tribes to be on one side of the tabernacle. Then these other three tribes should be pitched on this side of the tabernacle. Another three tribes on the south side, another three tribes, three tribes on the west side.  No, it's very organized. These three tribes on the north, these three on the east, these three on the south, these three on the west. Then when all of you have to make your journey, you blow the trumpet, then these three tribes start moving. Then these follow, these follow. So you can just look at that and all these details are there in the book of numbers. It may seem very boring to read.  So it seems very boring to read, but it's telling us so much about God. It's telling us that God, he wants them to move in a very organized way and he's giving detailed instruction. You blow the trumpet, they lift up their flag, and the people follow the flag and they follow that. So he wants things to be done in a very orderly way. So we see that as a beautiful example where God is a God of order and organization and so on. So similarly, when we see God wanting Moses to build the tabernacle, he says, Moses, this is how the tabernacle must be built. You know, just say, okay, make anything you want. No, this is how it is. Solomon, when you are going to build the temple, God gave the design to David and he says, this is how the temple must be built. Right? So you can see, you know, God just giving details and how things have to be organized, how things have to be done. Other examples in the Old Testament, Moses leading his team. We see how Moses, at one point, he was trying to take care of all the people and then Jethro, his father-in-law, comes, he says, Moses, see, if you're going to do this all by yourself, it's going to be very difficult. But what I want you to do, and Jethro gives Moses the advice, he says, you know, you appoint leaders, yeah, and you organize them to take care of groups of 50 groups of hundreds. So they will help you this, you know, take care of the people rather than you sitting and trying to take care of all of these people. You have leaders under you who will be in charge of groups of 50 and groups of 100 and they will be able to take care. So you see that then in numbers later on in numbers 11, God himself says, Moses, I want you to select 70 elders. And I will put my spirit on the 70 elders. And the 70 elders will help you take care of the people. So Jethro has given advice, in Exodus 18, God himself says, Moses, you appoint 70 elders to take care of all of these people and order in the camps. Number 10 is what I just referred to about their journey. Worship in the Tabernacle. Again, this is very, very amazing. When we think about this worship in the Tabernacle, you know, think about David, how we organized worship in the Tabernacle. This is something that went on for 33 years, nonstop. So there was worship happening in the Tabernacle of David, nonstop for 33 years, day and night. How was that possible? You read about how David organized it. David said, okay, we'll have 24 teams. Everybody's given one-hour slot. And you come, you lead worship through the prayer, go.  Then he had about 4,000 people, musicians and others. Then he had another 4,000 people serving in the temple. So almost a group of more than 8,000 plus people was serving in the Tabernacle. But they're all very well organized.  We will call them worship teams. They're all given their slots to come in and they all continuously are leading worship and the musicians with them. And so there was nonstop praise and worship going on for 33 years from the time he built the Tabernacle until later on it kind of phased out. But this happened. So even in the worship of the Tabernacle, we see such detailed planning and organization. It just did happen randomly. Was God in it? Yeah, God was in it. Was God being worshiped? Yes, was God being glorified? Yes. But there was also organization. There was planning, there was order and there's many details. Other examples we can see in the rebuilding of the walls in the book of Nehemiah.  But it just didn't happen randomly. Nehemiah went and all the people who are willing to come and help him, you know, he is making a lot of noise here. Anyway, he organized the people to work along the different gates of the city wall. They organized them and they were all given their tasks to be done. So even in the rebuilding of the walls, Nehemiah carried it out in a very systematic and very organized way. So we see these examples. Of course, it was God who was at work. It was God who had stirred up Nehemiah. It was God who had given him favor. It was God who had stirred up the hearts of the people to participate in the rebuilding the walls. But Nehemiah did it in a very organized way and the work was done. We come to the New Testament. Again, in the New Testament, we see, you know, organization being done. An example that we see early on is an Acts after Six where in the church, when they were in the early church, they were having to distribute food to the people, you know. So there were the Hebrews and the Greeks. There were Jewish believers, Jewish believers. Some of them who were Hebrews. Some of them who were from Greek would become believers. They were all part of the church and the Greek speaking and the Hebrew speaking Jews would become believers. And they were serving food to all the people. But there were some problems because the Hebrews and the Greeks, they felt that, you know, they were not being treated equally. The Hebrew speaking Jews and the Greek speaking Jews. So there was a little problem. And what did the apostles do? By the help of the Holy Spirit? This was their solution. They said, let's appoint seven men. We will put seven men in charge of this matter and let these men serve food to the people and, you know, take care of this whole thing of serving food. So you can imagine, you know, you have to serve 3000 people food every day. It's not an easy thing. But what did they do? They delegated that responsibility. And the apostles didn't go. Maybe in the first, you know, period, first early, yeah, early weeks, maybe all the apostles were busy serving food. And then they realized, look, this is not something we can do. And, you know, people are also complaining that they're not getting the right or whatever the issues were, they're not being treated fairly or whatever. It's okay. It's us trying to solve it. Let's give this responsibility to seven men. So they formed a team. We would call it today of a ministry team or the ministry team in charge of the ministry of food, something like that. And that team, you handle the whole thing. Of course, they chose Godly people.  That means they chose the right people. But they gave that responsibility to the seven people and said, you take care of this whole thing. There are all these thousands of people who need to be given food every day. It's your responsibility. We are not going to worry about it. And then from then on, in Acts chapter six, we read that things worked out fine after that. And the word of God increased and the church kept growing. So the very beginning of the church, it's the early church, the Holy Spirit is moving. God is at work, but slowly things are being organized. Work is being delegated. Now, when we come to later on, so when we come to First Timothy, the third chapter, which is, we're talking almost about AD 60. So almost into 30, 40 years, 40 years after the beginning of the early church, when Paul is writing in First Timothy chapter three, just before he died. So it'll be around AD 67 or 68. But Paul is writing, by this time, it is very clear. He's writing about spiritual leader, then he's writing about deacons. So that means by this time, in the minds of the leaders of the church, it is very clear that there are people who will be put in charge of spiritual responsibility, like what we would call them as pastors and people who are doing spiritual ministry. And then there are also people who are considered as deacons. That means they are given administrative responsibility. They're given responsibility for the organization of the church. So that becomes very clear in Paul's writing in First Timothy three. That means, in the first 40 years, people have understood that in the church, you need both kinds of ministries. You need people who are going to do the spiritual ministry, or you need people who are going to do the help, so the administrations and the organization ministry. And both of these require godly people. So in First Timothy chapter three, Paul is saying, you choose spiritual leaders like this. And then he says, you choose deacons like this. But even the deacons, he's talking about godly character, godly things, like they should be people of good rapport, they should love the law, they should... So both sides, whether they are doing organization side or spiritual side, you need godly people in the church for the service of the people. And in Romans 16, and we will look at these scriptures. We see Paul writing about, you know, Phoebe, I think, yeah, Phoebe, who's a woman, but she's in charge of the administration of the church. She's handling some administrative matters in the church. So we see even women involved in this thing. So it becomes very clear, both from the old times, but the new times, when the god is organizing his work, he's God, he's powerful. But when he's working on the earth through people, he's working in a very, very systematic, very organized way. And when we come to the local church, and we're going to read some of these scriptures here, in the local church, we see that there are gifts and ministries in the church that are specialized in what we would refer to as organization. So let's go to Romans 12 first. Romans 12, 4 through 8, we'll read that. Romans 12, 4 through 8. Somebody could read it online. Romans 12, verse 4 to 8. Okay, yeah, quite 4 to 8. Yeah, Romans 12. Romans chapter 12 is 4 to 8. For us, we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office. So we be in one body in Christ, and every one member is one other. Having the gifts, according to the grace that is given to us, that is prophecy, that is prophecy, according to the proportion of faith for ministry, that is the will of our ministry, or the will that has been given to us. Okay, thank you. So in this list of what we would be called as believers' functions or believers' ministries, of course, this is not a complete list. It's not like everything that is there, but just a representative list of different gifts and functions, graces that God gives to his people. We find certain gifts, which we would connect to organization or administration. For example, verse 7, or ministry. That word ministry simply means any kind of service. So it's not just the preaching and the teaching of the word, but any kind of serving is here. That's verse number 7. So do it, you know, do it to serve people. Then there is giving in verse number 8. He who gives, so giving. So God may equip people to be very generous. You can give your money, you can give your time, you can give, you know, anything else. So giving, generosity. Then you also see leadership. He who leads with diligence. So leadership is another gift thing that God has placed in the church, leadership. So this could be leadership in anything. Somebody could be leading a ministry team. Somebody could be leading a team of volunteers. Somebody could be leading, you know, a certain aspect of the thing that's going on in the church, leadership. You know, leadership can be in so many areas, but you see that God has given people the ability to be able to lead others. So leadership is given and it can be used in so many different contexts. Leadership. So whoever leads, let them do the diligence. Then he says, showing mercy. Do it with chifras. So you see ministry giving leadership. They're not necessary. All these three are not necessarily the preaching or the teaching of the word, but it is some, it's very easy to recognize these in the context of organization and administration that somebody could be serving, leading or giving, you know, in the context of others. So God has put these in the church. Let's also look at 1st Corinthians chapter 12. And we will read verse 28. 1st Corinthians 12 and verse 28, please. Somebody could read that. And God has appointed these in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after the miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Thank you. So notice what he says in verse 28, God has appointed these. That means these are, you know, gift functions, kind of related to the functions. He's put them in the church, in the church. And in this list, you know, of course, he talks about apostles and prophets and teachers and all of that, but then you come down along in the gift you see in the list, you see, helps, administration, helps. That means anybody doing anything to help. It's a gift God has put in the church, just like how he has put apostles, the prophets, the teachers, the pastors, whatever, he's put these people in the church. And what are they gifted at? They're gifted at helping. They're gifted at, you know, doing and what, you know, we would use and notice the next word, administrations. That means they're good at organizing, running, running the, you know, the ministry, how things should work, how things should function. So the apostle himself is not an administrator. The apostle is a gift that God has placed in church, pastor, teacher, evangelist, all of that, God has placed them, but he's also placed people who are specially gifted by God in helps, in administrations. That's in the organization of the church. Right? So what was we do? We must recognize these people and we must obviously God has put them in the church because he wants the church to do well in these areas, just as he has put, you know, all the other gifts in the church. So obviously he wants the church to do well in administration. He wants the church to do well in the organization and the functioning part that's why he's put these people and so we must recognize these people, we must give them the space and the opportunity to come and do what God has gifted them to do and that helps in the administrations working alongside these spiritual ministries, you know, apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, all of that. They're all working side by side and then you'll have a healthy church, you'll have a church that's functioning very well. Right? So God has put this and we must recognize it and therefore we must provide the support system for these people to function and do their work. Right? And then lastly, when you look at this, you know, what Paul himself has written through the local church, so he writes to the Corinthians and first Corinthians chapter 11, verse 34, first Corinthians 11, you know, he says this is in the context of course of these people coming in, having the Lord stable together, he says, if anyone is hungry, let them eat at home, you come together for judgment and the rest I will set in order when I come. Notice he says, I will set things in order. Right? That means the local church has to function in an orderly way, you know, even in the matter of giving communion, it's got to be in order. It's not like chaos, like everybody come, take your cup of juice and take your cup of a piece of bread and, you know, go, no, no, no, this order, I will set in order things in the local church. We read first Corinthians 14, Paul wrote, you know, God is not the, let all things be done decently in an order, even to Titus, he writes about keeping things in order in the local church. Titus chapter 1 and verse 5, he says, it tells Titus, for this reason I left you in peace that you should set in order the things that are lacking and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you. So elders typically given for spiritual ministry, set in order the functioning part that should go well in all the cities where he had churches. So, you know, just when we look at God and the way God works, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, there is organization, there is administration, there is order, right? So let me just discover a few more thoughts and then, you know, we'll keep some time for questions as well in discussion. So anything from a practical perspective, also there's a need or perhaps we could even say there's a demand or maybe even an expectation for efficiency. You know, people in the congregation expect the local church to be organized and efficient, especially in an urban context, right? So you're in a city and if you're in a metro like Bangalore, you know, people are expecting the church to be very organized. If we say our event, whatever it is, Sunday service or whether it's something that starts at 10 o'clock or service starts at 10.30, they're expecting it to start at 10.30, you know, and they're expecting everything to be okay. You know, that means lights should be there, fans should be there, you know, the things should be properly functioning because that's kind of what they used to in the city, right? Most of them are working in corporate offices. Things happen on time, things happen efficiently. So by default, they expect the local church to also function in a same way, right? And they expect, for instance, if somebody wants a letter from the church, they expect to get it within one or two days, you know, somebody wants, you know, some assistance on the church, they expect things to happen quickly, right? So there is that expectation today, especially in an urban context for the church to be efficient. The church should respond quickly. And the only way that can happen is the church is organized and it's functioning well. Another important practical aspect is that people actually want to serve in the church, they want to remain spectators, they want to serve, but they are bringing skills that they have. And the skills they have may not be necessarily in the preaching and the teaching, you know, many of them have very good skills in organization, planning, in administration and on those kinds of things. And they want those skills to be used, you know, for the, to serve in the church. So we can't say how you don't preach, you don't teach, so you can't serve in the church. No. And what are the skills you have?  Okay, see how that can be used in the church. So we need to create those kinds of opportunities. And lastly, a third reason, a practical thing is that the world around us, they are also both, you know, both believers and even those outside, they are expecting such competencies from the church or the church to be relevant. So, for example, if you see a local church, do you have a website? You know, they're expecting, you know, for the church to have a website and on the website, you're going to announce your events and all that, they're not expecting the church to be sending letters every day, you know, this is an event that no, they have a website. Can you send me an email? Can you send me a WhatsApp, you know, a message, a text message? Do you have a, you know, can I connect with you online? Things like that. So people are expecting the church to be ministering in these ways, even today, right, to be relevant and so on. So the congregation is expecting the church, congregation wants to serve in the church using their skills. And even the world outside is expecting these kinds of competencies from the church. And so the church needs to have good administration and organization, right? So let me pause here to see if there are any questions before I go forward in the next section. Any questions here? So far, Devin, I have a question. Yeah, so I just want to ask you how sometimes it feels like too much, like being, having a great vision and then thinking about administration, people creates a little fear because the starting days, you don't even have the people or you don't even know how we are going to start things sometimes as God gives you the vision. I just want to ask you, like, what's the first thing you did as you started your ministry? Or what are the things or struggles for you to think of? I think we all want to have some ministries. We all want to have some people, some help, but how to overcome the fear of starting something sometime. Like when I think of myself, I feel like, can I really do this? These many people, the ministries, do I have those abilities? These are some questions that I have. And I also wonder, like, will it really happen or not? So I just want to ask, like, what's the first thing that you struggled with and how you were given in the case of administration? Yeah, that's a good thing. So the question, you know, how can you, I mean, when I think about the question itself, like, I think one is preparation, right? So try to, you know, try to prepare as well as you can for the launch and the starting of the ministry God has given you. So try to think about, you know, try to develop whatever skills you can on the administrative side as well, the organization side as well. You know, try to think about it, try to learn as much as you can. So, you know, before we started All People's Church, I also spent, one of the things that it was, I also spent time looking at how other churches are running. So I took the time to, okay, how is that church organized? How is that church organized? It's looking at different, not what we're trying to copy, but we're trying to learn the good things. So I tried to say, okay, how is the church organized? So I looked at, especially one or two good models of churches, you know, I said, oh, yeah, this church is very, they're doing things like whatever that was very mission focused church. They're doing a lot of missionary work.  That means we're not just there to feed people and keep ourselves, but I wanted us, I wanted church to be something that's looking outward, that is reaching across the city, the nation and the nation. So I tried to look at other churches that are doing that and observing them, like, how are they doing it? How are they organized? What are the different departments they have? How is that? You know, of course, I couldn't get into meaning, I was only looking at it from an outsider, like from a distance. I was trying to learn, you know, so that I found very useful as a part of preparation to start APC. And then, yeah, when we started in the early years, at least the first two years, I had to do everything. Like, so I would, for example, in the first two years, okay, I would come and I would set up everything. Of course, I had, you know, Amy was helping me with life and then there was one other couple, but I would come, I would set up the whole but I sounded like it wasn't much, was two big speakers, three mics, and one. So I set up everything, you know, come, set it all up, arrange all the chairs, clean the chairs, arrange the table. So basically, you are doing everything, right, start to finish and set up the projector, everything, prepare and of course, you're to prepare the slides that you're going to for the songs, prepare this and arrange the book table, everything you do before the service comes.  Then after everybody goes, you have to count the offering, write it in the accounts book, everything, you know, pack up and put everything away. So the first two years was like that, you know, but I had to do everything, but I wanted, I had to do it, nobody else was there, but I wanted to do it in a very organized way. So whatever I knew, I applied it, you know, I would write the accounts in a book, keep record, everything. So we have, you know, the very first book that was used, you know, this is the offering that came, it was written day one date and this is the amount that came. So from the very beginning, you know, everything was kept organized, but it was small, you know, like you're saying, can we have a congregation just less than 20 people? There is work to be done, you still have to set up the sound and the mics and all that, but we try to do it in as good way as possible. Then slowly as more people came, you could delegate, hey, can you help me to the setup? You know, okay, can you help me back up? So like that, it got started, you know, and then slowly you built from there. So those were the early days and that's how, you know, initially you might have to do everything, getting these organized, but then as people joined, you can get more people to help you and they'll also catch the ratio. Okay, let's pause here. We'll take a break, 10 minute break, they'll come back and we'll continue this. Thank you.


at Big Data SV 2014 is brought to you by headline sponsors, WAN Disco. We make Hadoop invincible and Actian, accelerating Big Data 2.0. Okay, we're back here live in Silicon Valley. This is Big Data SV. This is Silicon Angle and Wikibon's theCUBE coverage of Big Data in Silicon Valley and all around the world covering the Stratoconference, all the latest news analysis here in Silicon Valley. The Cube is our flagship program about the events extracted from the noise. I'm John Furrier, the founder of Silicon Angle. So my co-host, the co-founder of Wikibon.org, Dave Vellante, George Matthewsio Alterist on theCUBE again, back from Big Data NYC just a few months ago, our two events, welcome back. Great to be here. So what fruit has dropped into the blender that changed the colors of the big data space this time? So we were in New York, we saw what happened there. A lot of talk about financial services, big business, Silicon Valley, Kool-Aid is more about innovation, partnerships are being formed, channel expansion. I'll say the market's hot, growth is still there, seeing valuations are high. What's your take on the current state of the market? Yeah, great question. So John, when we see this market today, I remember even a few years ago when I first visited theCUBE, particularly when it came to Hadoop World and Strata a few years back, it was amazing that we talked about this early innings of a ball game, right? We said it was like, maybe we're probably in the second or third inning of this ball game. And what has progressed particularly this last few years has been how much the actual productionalization, the actual industrialization of this activity, particularly from a big data analytics standpoint has merged. And that's amazing, right? In a short span of two, three years, we're talking about technologies and capabilities that were kind of considered things that you play with and now these are things that are keeping the lights on and running major portions of how better decision-making and analytics are done inside of organizations. So I think that industrialization is a big shift forward. In fact, if you listen to guys like Norender Malani who runs most of analytics at Accenture, he'll actually highlight that as one of the key elements of how not only the transformation is occurring among organizations, but even the people that are servicing large companies today are going through this big shift and we're right in the middle of it. And we saw, you mentioned Accenture, we look at CSC, what service mesh in the cloud side, you're seeing the consulting firms really seeing build-out mandates, not just POCs, like let's go in lockdown now for the vendors, that means is people are looking for reference accounts right now. So to me, I'm kind of seeing the tea leaves say, okay, who's going to knock down the reference accounts and what is that going to look like? You know, how do you go in and say, I'm going to tune up this database against SAP or this against that and incumbent legacy vendor with this new scale out, all these things are in play. So we're seeing that focus of, okay, tire kicking is over, real growth, real, real, referenceable deployments, not like POC on steroids, like full-on game-changing deployments. Do you see that? And if you do, what versions of that do you see happening? And what ending is that? Is that like the first pitch of the sixth inning? How would you benchmark that? Yeah, so I would say we're definitely in the fourth or fifth inning of an unending ballgame now. And in these innings, what we're seeing is I describe this as a new analytic stack that's emerged. And that started years ago when particularly the major Hadoop distro vendors started to rethink how data management was effectively being delivered. And once that data management layer started to be rethought, particularly in terms of, you know, what the schema was on read, what the ability to do MPP and scale out was in terms of how much cheaper it is to bring storage and compete closer to data. What's now coming above that stack is, you know, how do I blend data? How do I be able to give solutions to data analysts who can make better decisions off of what's being stored inside of that petroite scale infrastructure? So we're seeing this new stack emerge where, you know, Cloud Era, Work and Works, MapR are kind of that underpinning and underlying infrastructure, where now our base analytics that revolution provides all tricks for data blending, for analytic work that's in the hands of data analysts, Tableau for visual analysis and dashboarding. Those are basically the solutions that are moving forward as a capability that are packaged and productized better. Is that the game-changing feature right now? Do you think of that integration of the stack or is that the big game changer this moment? That's the hardening that's happening as we speak right now. If you think about the industrialization of big data analytics that, you know, as I think of it as the fourth or fifth inning of the ballgame, that hardening, that ability to take solutions that either, you know, the Accenture's, the KPMG's, the Deloitte's of the world deliver to their clients, but also how people build stuff internally, right? They have much better solutions that work out of the box as opposed to fumbling with, you know, things that aren't, you know, stitched as well together because of the bailing wire and bubble gum that was involved for the last few years. So I got to ask you, one of the big trends you saw, and certainly in the tech world, you mentioned stacks as a success of Amazon, the cloud you're seeing, integrated stacks being a key part of the, kind of the formation that you said, hardening of the stack. But the word horizontally scalable is a term that's used in a lot of these open source environments where you have commodity hardware, you have open source software, so you know, it's horizontally scalable. Now, that's very easy to envision, but think about the implementation in an enterprise or a large organization, horizontally scalable is not a no brainer. What's your take on that? How does that hyperscale infrastructure mindset of scale out horizontally scalable, which is a big benefit of the current infrastructure? How does that fit into the big data software? Well, I think it fits extremely well, right? Because when you look at the capabilities of the last, as we describe it, stack, we almost think of it as vertical hardware and software that's actually built up. But right now, for anyone who's building scale in this world, it's all about scale out and really being able to build that stack on a horizontal basis. So if you look at examples of this, right? Say, for instance, what Cloudera recently announced with their enterprise hub. And so when you look at that capability of the enterprise data hub, a lot of it is about taking what Yarn has become as a resource manager, what HTFS has become as a scale out storage infrastructure, what the new plug-in engines have merged beyond MapReduce as a capability for engines to come into Hadoop. And that is a very horizontal description of how you can do scale out, particularly for data management. When we built a lot of the work that was announced at Strata a few years ago, particularly around how the analytics architecture for a gallery emerged at Altrix, now we have hundreds of apps, thousands of users in that infrastructure. And when we built that, that was actually scaling out on Amazon where the worker nodes and the capability for us to manage workload was very horizontally built out. If you look at servers today, of any layer of that stack, it is really about that horizontal scale out, less so about throwing more hardware, more high-end infrastructure at it, but more about how commodity hardware can be leveraged and used up and down that stack very easily. So George, I had to ask you a question. So why is analytics so hard for so many companies?  And when's it gonna get easier and what are you guys specifically doing to facilitate that? Sure, so a few things that we've seen to date is that a lot of the analytics work that many people do, internal and external to organizations, is very rote, hand-driven coding, right? And I think that's been one of the biggest challenges because the two endpoints in analytics have been either you hard code stuff that you push into a C++ or a Java function and you push it into database, or you're doing lightweight analytics in Excel. And really there needs to be a middle ground where someone can do effective scale out and have repeatability in what's been done and ease of use in what's been done that you don't have to necessarily be a programmer in Java, a programmer in C++ to push an analytic function in database. And you certainly don't have to deal with the limitations of Excel today. And really that middle ground is what Altric serves. We look at it as an opportunity for analysts to start work with a very repeatable, reusable workflow of how they would build their initial constructs around an analytic function that they would wanna deploy. And then the scale out happens because all of the infrastructure works on that analyst's behalf. Whether that be the infrastructure around Hadoop, whether that be the infrastructure or the scale out of how we would publish an analytic function, whether that be how the visualizations would occur inside of a product like Tableau. And so that I think Dave is one of the biggest things that needs to shift over where you don't have the only options in front of you for analytics is either Excel or hard coding a bunch of code in C++ or Java and pushing it in database. Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be building your partnerships and your ecosystem really around driving that solution and really driving a revolution in the way in which people think about analytics. Ease of use? The idea is that ultimately if you can't get data analysts to be able to not only create work that they can actually self-describe, deploy, and deliver and deliver success inside of an organization and scale that out at the petabyte scale information that exists inside of most organizations, you fail. And that's the job of folks like ourselves to provide great software that delivers that. You mentioned Tableau, you guys have a strong partnership there and Kristen Chavo I think has a good vision and you talked about sort of the choices of the spectrum and neither are good. Can you talk a little bit more about that partnership and the relationship and what you guys are doing together? Yeah, I would say Tableau's our strongest and most strategic partner today. I mean, we were diamond sponsors of their conference. I think I was there at their conference when I was on theCUBE the time before and they are diamond sponsors of our conference. So our customers and particularly our users are one and the same. For Tableau, it really becomes an experience around how visual analysis and dashboarding can be very easily delivered by data analysts. And we think of those same users, the same exact people that Tableau works with to be able to do data blending and advanced analytics. And so that's why the two software products, that's why the two companies, that's why our two customer bases are one and the same because of that integrated experience. So Tableau is basically replacing Excel. That's the mission that they're after. And we feel that anyone who wants to be able to do the first form of data blending, which I would think of as a VLOOK up in Excel, should look at Altrix as a solution for that work. So you mentioned your conference, it's Inspire, right? It is Inspire, yeah. It was coming up in June. June, yeah. Now how many years have you done Inspire? So Inspire is now in its fifth year and...  Yeah, that would be great to have you guys. Yeah, that would be fun. We should do it. So talk about that conference a little bit. I don't know much about it, but I know of it. It's very centered around business users, particularly data analysts and many organizations that cut across retail, financial services, communications where companies like Walmart, AT&T, Sprint, Verizon, bring a lot of their underlying data problems, underlying analytic opportunities that they've wrestled with and bring a community together. This year we're expecting somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 and 5600 folks attending, largely to figure out how to bring this game forward, really to build out this next-grade analytic capability that's emergent for most organizations. And we think that that starts, ultimately, with data analysts. We think that there are well over 2.5 million data analysts that are underserved by the current big data tools that are in this space, and we've just been highly focused on targeting those users, and so far it's been pretty good for us. The data science movement is obviously moving to the casual user at some level, it's going to end up getting there not soon. But I want to ask you the role of the cloud in all this, because what you have underneath the hood is a lot of leverage. You mentioned the integrated stats. I want to get your perspective on the data cloud. Not data cloud, it's just putting data in the cloud, but the role of cloud, the role of DevOps, that intersection, because you're seeing DevOps fueling a lot of that growth, certainly under the hood. Now, at the top of the stack, you have the, I guess it's middle layer, lack of better description, going to use old metaphor, developing. So that's the enablement piece. Ultimately, the end game is fully turned key, data science, personalization, all that's the holy grail we all know. So how do you see that collision with the cloud and the big data movement? Yeah, so cloud has basically become three things for a lot of folks in our space. One is what we talked about, which is scale out. And scale out is something that is much more feasible when you can spin up and spin down infrastructure as needed, particularly on an elastic basis. And so many of us who've built our solutions leverage Amazon being one of the most de facto solutions for cloud-based deployment, that it just makes it easy to do the scale out that's necessary. The second thing it actually enables us, and many of our friends and partners to do, is to be able to bring a lower cost basis to how infrastructure stood up. Because at the end of the day, the challenge for the last generation of analytics and data warehousing that was in the space is your starting conversation is $2 to $3 million just in infrastructure alone before you even buy software and services. And so now if you can rent everything that's involved with the infrastructure, and the software is actually working within days, hours of actually starting the effort as opposed to a 14 month life cycle, it's really compressing the time to success and value that's involved. And so we see almost a similarity to how Salesforce really disrupted the market 10 years ago. I happened to be at Salesforce when that disruption occurred and the analytics movement that is underway really impacted by cloud and the ability to scale out in the cloud is really driving an economic basis that's unheard of. And a developer market that's robust, right? I mean you have easy kind of turnkey development, by tapping data. It is, right? Because there's a robust economy that's surrounding the APIs that are now available for cloud services. So it's not even just at the starting point of infrastructure, but there's definite higher level services where all the way to software as infrastructure is now available. How much growth do you see in that, in that valley of wealth and opportunity that will be created? I mean, from your cost, not only for the companies involved but the companies, customers, they have top line focus. And then the goal of the movement that you're seeing with analytics is you're seeing the CIO who kind of less of a role more of the CEO wants to, the chief data officer who wants the top line drivers to be app focused. So you're seeing a big shift there. Yeah, I mean one of the real proponents of the cloud is now the fact that there is an ability for business analysts, business users and the business line to make impacts on how decisions are done faster without the infrastructure underpinnings that were needed inside the four walls of an organization. So the decision maker and the buyer effectively has become to your point, the chief analytics officer, the chief marketing officer, right? Less so the chief information officer of an organization. And so I think that that is accelerating in a tremendous pace, right? Because even if you look at the statistics that are out there today, the buying power of the CMO is now outstripped the buying power of the CIO probably by 1.2 to 1.3X, right?  So I would see that go even faster. So yeah, so now let me just kind of bake this out here real time. So you got IT, which we all know, right? I went to the IT world for a long time. Service little catalog, self-service, you know, service early architectures, whatever you want to call it involving modern era, that's good. But on the business side, there's still a need for this same kind of cataloging of tooling, platform, analytics. So do you agree with that? I mean, do you see that kind of happening that way where there's still some connection, but it's not a complete dependency? That's kind of what we're thinking real time. Do you see that happening? Yeah, I think it's pretty spot on because when you look at what businesses are doing today, they're selecting software that enables them to be more self-reliant. The reason why we have been growing as much among business analysts as we have is we deliver self-reliant software. And in some way, that's what Tableau does. And so the winners in this space are going to be the ones that will really help users get to results faster through self-reliance. And that's really what companies like Autric stand for today. So I want to ask you a follow-up on that CMO, CIO discussion. So given that, that CMO is spending a lot more, where's the, who owns the data is we talk, well I don't know if I asked you this before, but do you see the role of a chief data officer emerging? And is that individual part of the marketing organization, is it part of IT? Is it a separate parallel role? What do you see emerging there? Well, one of the things I will tell you is that as I've seen chief analytics and chief data officers emerge and that is a real category entitled. Real deal. Of folks that have real responsibilities in the organization. The one place that's not is in IT, which is interesting to see, right? Because oftentimes those individuals are reporting straight to the CEO. Or they have very close access to line of business owners, general managers, or the heads of marketing, the heads of sales. So I'm seeing that shift where, wherever that chief data officer is, whether that's reporting to CEOs or line of business managers or general managers of large strategic business units, it's not in the information office. It's not in the CIO's purview anymore. And that is kind of telling for how people are thinking about their data. Data is becoming much more of an asset and a weapon for how companies grow and build their scale, less so about something that we just have to deal with. Yeah, and it's clearly emerging that role in certain industry sectors. Clearly financial services, government, and healthcare. Absolutely. But we have been saying- Big retail, big telecom, big healthcare. I mean, it just crossed the board, right? And one of the reasons why I wrote the article at the end of last year, I literally titled it, analytics is eating the world is this exact idea, right? Because you have this notion that you no longer are locked down with data and infrastructure kind of holding you back, right? This is now much more in the hands of people who are responsible for making better decisions inside their organizations, using data to drive those decisions. And it doesn't matter the size and shape of the data that it's coming in. Data is like the food that just spilled out from the truck and analytics is the Pac-Man eating it. That's right. Okay, George, final question in this segment is, summarize big data SV for us this year. From your perspective, no one was going on now. What's the big game changer? What should the folks know who we're watching and should take note of what should they pay attention to? What's the big story here at this moment? Well, there's definite swim lanes that are being created, as you can see. I mean, and now that the bigger distribution providers, particularly on the Hadoop side of the world, have started to call out what they all stand for, right? You can tell that MapR is definitely about creating a fast, slightly proprietary Hadoop distro for enterprise. You can tell that the folks at Cloudera are focusing themselves on enterprise scale and really building out that hub for enterprise scale. And you can tell Hortonworks is basically embedding, enabling an open source distro for anyone to be able to take advantage of. And certainly, the previous announcements and some of the recent ones give you an indicator of that. So I see these swim lanes forming in that layer, and now what is going to happen is that focus and attention is gonna move away from how that layer has evolved into what I would think of as advanced analytics, being able to do the visual analysis and blending of information. That's where the next battle war turf is going to be in particularly the strata space. So we're really looking forward to that because it basically puts us in a great position as a company and a market leader in particularly advanced analytics to really serve customers in how this new battleground is emerging. Well, we really appreciate you taking the time.  Obviously, you have a company that you're running and a great team and you come and share your great knowledge with our fans and audience. Appreciate it. What's next for you this year in the company? What's some of your goals? Let's share that as well. Yeah, we have a few things that are, we mentioned it, of course, Inspire coming up in June. There's a big product release. Most of our product team is actually here and we have a release coming up at the beginning of Q2, which is Altrix 9.0. So that has quite a bit involved in it, including expansion of connectivity, being able to go and introduce a fair degree of modeling capability so that the R-based modeling that we do scales out very well with Revolution and Cloudera in mind, as well as being able to package and deploy analytic apps very quickly from those data analysts in mind. So it's a release that's been almost a year in the works and we are very much looking forward to a big launch at the beginning of Q2. George, thanks so much. Got Inspire coming up. A lot of great success. This is growing market valuations are high and the good news is, this is just the beginning, call it mid-endings in the industry, but in the customers, I call it top of the first. A lot of build out real deployment, real budgets, real deal, big data. It's going to collide with cloud again. I'm going to start a little bit, a lot of innovation. All happening right here, big data SV, all the big data Silicon Valley coverage here at theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. We'll be right back with our next guest after this short break.


So it's mobile, a hot area for SAP, so Schnabe, as you mentioned, mobile is one of the innovation categories. Obviously, mobile is the hottest thing. We've been covering cloud mobile and social in a very in-depth way from a technical perspective. But right now in the market, mobile is the hottest area with big data in two aspects, at the developer angle and also the C-level suite. Everyone you talk to, the C-level and at the developer, really care about two hot things right now, and that's big data, mobile, it's like cloud and big data, kind of the same thing, but mobility. So what specific strategy you guys have today with mobile, given that from the bottom to the top, and it's the sandwich of innovation, right, C-levels care about performance analytics, developers want to develop apps, what do you say we do after that? I think mobility is really the next evolution of the interface, the digital interface.


Hello, I'm Melanie Nind and I'm from the National Centre for Research Methods at the University of Southampton and this is an introductory video to a method I've been using within the Centre which is video stimulated recall, reflection and dialogue. You can find in lots of textbooks about video stimulated recall and much less around the reflection and the dialogue that I'll be talking about today. And in terms of the introduction, I'm going to introduce you to what the method involves, when and why that method might be useful to you, some of the key decisions and challenges within the method, some of the ethical issues, how we're using it within the Centre and some of the questions that you might need to ask yourself if you're considering using this method. So what kind of method is this? This is a kind of interview technique, it's more advanced, it's a think aloud technique, but you're not asking your interviewee to think aloud something that's happening there and then, you're asking them to think aloud and recall and reflect about something that's happened previously, sometimes immediately previously, sometimes within the last day or week or couple of weeks. And so it's this retrospective technique, but video stimulated. There is a stimulus there to help stimulate that reflection and that thinking about what's happened. Within this technique, the stimulus is the video. It's there in a way to bring back the original situation for the interviewee, to bring it back with a kind of vividness and an accuracy that wouldn't be there if we're just trying to recall what was it? I just did what happened, why did I do it? The video brings the whole thing much more to the fore for the participant, the interviewee. And just by showing it, yes, it reminds them and so they recall, but it also prompts for them this reflection, why did I do that? That's interesting. I didn't know I talked with my hands in the way that I do. I've been very good today. I can get some dialogue going as a researcher when I use this method. So, you know, what was that about? What was going on? Can we talk about? And what's really important with the method and sometimes people forget, although you might capture a lot of video, the sole purpose of that video is then to stimulate the discussion. You don't go away and analyze that video in and of itself. The purpose of the video is to become a kind of stimulus material, a resource to deepen the interview experience. So, as a new user of the method, you need to think about, what is it that you want your participants to relive? Why do you want them to relive it? What do you want them to recall and reflect on? In terms of when and why you use this method, it's usually about probing what's gone on, what's happened. You use it at times when you want to know what an interviewee is feeling, thinking, why they made the decisions that they made. So, in our instance, using it with understanding teaching and learning and the decision making, the interactions, what's going on within classrooms. It's a great method for that because often what we want to know isn't readily knowable. We need to really kind of drill down. We need to help to make something explicit that wasn't readily explicit. And we use the method when we want to combine thinking about behavior with thinking about what was behind that behavior. And sometimes that thinking is quite complex. It can be automated. You know, we do it so many times, teachers do what they do so many times they've stopped necessarily knowing why it is that they use that humor or that resource or paste things as they do. So, this is a method that can help you to access things you wouldn't normally access. So, think about whether that's of benefit to you. I want to illustrate for you the way that video can stimulate dialogue. So, researchers and participants can discuss together. We had an excerpt where one of the researchers who'd been making the video said, you know, Melanie, the other researcher, me, can say more about this. But we're interested in this particular piece of video because it was one of the moments in the events when you, the learners, were quite engaged. And then I come in and create a conversation and say, yes, for the audio tape now because we're recording the focus group. It wasn't very long ago that we were carrying out this piece of video. This real event was happening. Do you remember it? And one of the participants, one of the learners in the teaching session says, actually, I disagreed very strongly with what was being said then. Perhaps I don't know if that came across that I did disagree. I didn't say, I didn't say I strongly disagree. And you can see here that just the little piece of video and a couple of researchers talking about it has started off a whole episode of dialogue about what was going on and why the participants disagreed, why the teacher said what she said, and so on. OK, so some key decisions that you're going to make if you're using this method is, firstly, what kind of stimulus will work best? If it's just about language, maybe audio. If you just want to stimulate reflection on what you could see, photo might suffice. But using video as the stimulus has the advantage that you've got this sequential temporal element. This happened and then that happened. You did this and then your learners, in my case, laughed or became engaged or asked questions. So you've got that that that live kind of follow through moment with video. It's also very multimodal. So you can see things, you can hear things and the cues are very engaging with physio. So there's lots of reasons why that stimulus works well. But you also need to think about for yourself what are the disadvantages of video? Certainly, we found that sometimes people can't focus on the thing you want them to focus on because they're focused on the fact that their shoes didn't go with their outfit or their hair was sticking up and all these peripheral things that video picks up that sometimes you have to work with and work through before people can focus. Another huge decision for you is about what the camera needs to see, the angle of the camera, whether it needs to zoom right in, whether it actually needs to have a soundscape with this piece of video. When we've used this in NCRM, we've had one camera looking at the teacher, one camera looking at the learners. And so we've got multiple angles that may be far more complex than you than you would need. Another huge decision is when and how you're going to share that stimulus of the piece of video. If your emphasis is on video stimulated recall the memory, then the sooner after the real event happened that you replay it for the recall, the better. So immediate can be really good. If you really want deep reflection on something, it's sometimes better to leave the video with your participants overnight or for a couple of days and then come together and use that stimulus for that kind of reflection. Sometimes it can be good to use the video just with one interview. Okay, this happened. What was going on? What were you thinking? But sometimes an additional stimulus can be other people in the discussion. So I tend to use this method with a focus group. So if I say what's going on and other people chip in, and together we can reconstruct and re understand and interpret something that's that's just been happening. And lastly, I think in terms of key decisions, it's it's about who chooses which excerpts which video clips are going to be probed.  But even a more kind of participatory, emancipatory use of this technique, it would be the participant who says, you know, this was an interesting moment for me, or this is an interesting part of the video that I'd like to explore. So some some challenges next, this isn't a straightforward method. And I'm just going to focus in really on two main challenges. The first one is around capturing the video. So the art of using this method is making your video recording very unobtrusive.  But but a better piece of video is going to do a better job. But video where the camera is actually interfering with all the natural interactions you're hoping to explore. It is a very limited use to you. So the first challenge is really around that capturing the video. I've had research students using this method where they've had cameras on tripods in busy primary school classrooms and it hasn't worked at all because they simply get in the way. We've used cameras that just stick to a window with a suction cup and it's just tiny and just doesn't bother anybody at all.  And the quality of the playback equipment to to is very important for sharing that video. Again, we've had lovely quality video in the past with this method and the playback equipment has let down really the quality of what we're looking at. A quick whiz really through some of the ethical issues. I wouldn't encourage you to whiz through them quickly. You need to spend time on them, but just to highlight some of the things today. Whenever you have a video camera involved in a research method, even one like this, you need to ask yourself whether it's okay to position people, participants, interviewees, as the subjects of your professional or research gaze, is that comfortable for them? Is that acceptable? Can you defend putting this gaze on them? Does it have to be like that? Does it have to be the researcher's gaze on the participant with this kind of method, all sorts of opportunities are offered for you to be kind of putting that gaze on together to reflect together to avoid that kind of evaluative judgment that comes with ordinary video work. I've taken this video. I'm taking it away as a researcher. I'm analysing it. Thank you very much. You've been the subject of my gaze to let sit together and look at what I've just captured. You know, what sense can we make of this together? So there are some ethical kind of opportunities here to behave in a way that is much more respectful of our research participants. They can share in the process of deciding what's going to be filmed, what they're going to look at on the film, who selects, you know, who selects which bits of the video to focus on, participants might even come up with some of the questions to ask and probe in terms of looking at that piece of video stimulus. So there are some ethical things around the feelings of ownership that you could produce with this method, or the feelings of vulnerability that you could generate and really wouldn't want to generate. So some ethical things, definitely for us all to think about. I've already mentioned some of the ways in which we're using this method in the National Centre for Research Methods. We have a whole package of research where we're looking at the teaching and learning of research methods. And, you know, you can't just ask a teacher of research methods to say what it is they do and how. Sometimes they need that piece of video of what they've just done to help them think that through. So we're using the method to help us get at the complexity to help us make some of the implicit things in that teaching and learning just a bit more explicit for the teachers and the learners. And we're very definitely not just using video stimulated recall. We're using this with focus groups of teachers and learners together, because we want to facilitate a kind of dialogue, we want to create a community in which together we're in this process of working out the best ways of teaching and learning research methods, or if not the best ways, ways that work for us, ways that work for learners, things that people like and dislike and thinking about the decision making going on. And in that kind of use of the method, what's interesting is that it can serve two purposes. It's got this distinctive purpose for the researchers, but also our shared purposes with other teachers and learners that that we've all kind of invested in this project. And I think the the advantage that I'd want to flag up to you just as one extra thing in this introduction is that the method is really quite good at flagging up the discrepancies between what we think we've been seeing and the participants explanations of what we've been seeing. I recall video in one session where people were being taught really advanced quantitative methods.  And as a researchers, we couldn't tell whether they were concentrating learning or just planning what they were having for dinner tonight. You could not read on their faces, but using the video stimulated recall, we showed that piece of video and said to the learners, what was going on at that moment? You know, we can't read your expressions.  And so just this piece of video, that the participants explanations and our explanations for what we were seeing were different. And the video really helped to clear some of that out. And we had quite a really interesting discussion about that. So I think this method has real potential. In terms of reflecting, I can remember teachers selecting pieces of video for us. And it's quite hard to get your participants to select video. They're often just happy for you to select bits. But participants, teachers in this case, selecting a piece of video and saying, you know, I was relaxed at this point. This was interesting. The learners were asking questions. I've selected this as a really nice piece of the teaching episode. So, you know, that reflection can be quite nice to prompt with this method. And I'm just going to leave the introduction today with some buts and some things for you to reflect on if you're going to take this forward. First of all, one of our lessons from using the method is that recall and reflection doesn't always need to be stimulated by a piece of video. We've had focus groups where the video has almost felt redundant because everybody remembers it. It was very live. It was very engaging and provocative for them, the session itself, so they didn't need the extra stimulation. So sometimes you've collected and invested in a whole lot of data generation or stimulus generation that you didn't need. Another thing we found with this method is that it can be quite hard to find the most provocative moments. If you've got hours and hours of video, which is the moment that's going to get that person thinking, reflecting, having a discussion with you. It's not always easy to isolate those moments. It's also not easily, not always that easy to translate something that's happening in real life into a video. We've sat in sessions and thought that was fabulous, that was a brilliant bit of teaching and learning. I can't wait to show that to the teachers and learners later in the focus group. And then when we've sat down together and showed the video, we've kind of thought, hmm, doesn't really do it, doesn't bring it alive again. There was something about that moment, the humour where it was, that it was just after tea break or something that meant that it had that meaning, which is just lost in the video later. So be prepared, I think, for some disappointments as well as some excitements with this method. And the last thing I would say, I think, is that this method is best, not just using the video as a stimulus, but also using it as a response. So it becomes part of the interaction between the researcher and the research participant. So you might use a piece of video, get some discussion going and then follow up on something in the discussion with a fresh bit of video. So the video becomes part of the conversation. And I think, I think really that's when the method has it, its greatest potential. So lots to think about and an interesting method, I think.