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Oh, cool. Tonight it is a Strictly Family Affair at Navarra HQ and I'm joined by Tiskey Sour's top top lads, the good doctor Aaron Bistano. Thanks for giving me the butters chair. This is the one with the poor lighting. You actually look really bad. I wouldn't like you. Well this is before I've sweated about 3 litres because of the fact that we, for some reason, have a, we have a sort of micro climate in the Navarra offices. We have like a foam sauna here. We're gonna like whip each other with birch twigs and roll in the snow afterwards and also wouldn't be a Tiskey Sour without the indomitable, the peng, Michael Orkin. I didn't even know what that first adjective meant but I hope it's positive. I'm a bit worried today because last time I had kitchen roll next to me that I could wipe my forehead every time the camera went away. I couldn't see that until like the last 10 minutes. So why are we here? Not just to dab at ourselves with a bargain store kitchen roll.  David Davis had resigned from the government's front benches at 11 30 p.m. You must have had a nice early night, Ash. Have you found out about that in the morning? I did. I went super like 10 last night because I was seriously like drunk a lot of rum in the sunshine. Fair enough. I was booze groggy when I woke up is what I'm trying to say.  I nicked that joke off Twitter so if none of you find that funny it's someone else's fault. Blame the original poster. Blame the original poster whose name I have conveniently forgotten. So David Davis sentient home pride cartoon. His resignation is a huge blow to Theresa May's much wanted checkers agreement which had managed to restore cabinet collective responsibility and finally come out with a unified government Brexit negotiating position with the EU for a princely 48 hours. I mean that was what longer than some allodyses tenure as England manager shorter than what the average Britney marriage or was that 72 hours? How many times?  Yeah, I was either 17 or 72. How long was that like seeing the manager? 64 days. I think I either saw his last England game or Southgate's first one. At Wembley. I only discovered football in the world. I'm a semi X right now but anything that came before three weeks ago is alien to me. So I don't know. I mean we all feel that way because there's been a flurry of political activity today as well. So I'm feeling a bit punch drunk. Theresa's exit swiftly followed by Parliamentary Under Secretary Steve Baker. Speculation was rife as to which of the Arch Brexiteers would follow him. So would it be Michael Gove? Would it be Liam Fox? Would it be Penny Morden? I have learned all these names just for today. It was in fact none other than Sir Tufton Buffton himself, Boris Johnson. Number 10 managed to spike news of his resignation by announcing it just before he'd managed to finalise the final Greco-Roman flourishes to his resignation letter. And now he's gone. So with Corbyn on absolutely lacerating form in the comments today and reports that Theresa May has been issued with an ultimatum saying that she's got to ditch the principles of the checkers agreement. Otherwise she's going to lose more and more cabinet ministers with each passing hour. Her position as Prime Minister looks to me at least to be increasingly untenable. But what is the necessary constitutional choreography to get Labour from just harping on from the opposition ventures towards a general election? What are her chances for survival? Do we have any historical analogues that we can talk about? And what is it that annoyed everyone about the checkers agreement in the first place? But before we go over to hearing from Michael and Aaron, I think we've actually got some footage from Friday of Theresa May celebrating her cabinet consensus. Gary, could we get it? What was that? Was that Gary at the weekend? It was Theresa May at the weekend but also could have been a half-cut Gary. Where was it? That was the guy that fell through the bus roof, right? Where was that? I don't know where it was actually. It was the stupidest thing I've ever seen. No, it was in London wasn't it? It looked like it was Croydon or something but I wasn't sure. It's like Oxford Circus. It's Oxford Circus? Oh my God. He seems like he's going in jail as well. How funny. Criminal damage and you've broken your leg.  The man got straight up and walked away. What? He saved it.  He's on everything, right? No, but they say if you have a fall and you're drunk, you're more floppy so you're less likely to break your limbs. That's true. Don't try this at home, kids. Getting pissed is bad if you're in danger of drowning, but good if you're in danger of... In danger of falling. Yeah, falling. But it makes it more likely to fall so you shouldn't. Don't get drunk in high places. Don't scale a double decker bus and try to jump onto a bus stop. But if you do, be floppy. Be floppy. You know what? The outrage. Let's talk about something really important here. Break it to one side for a second. The outrage I've seen. What do you guys make of this IKEA stunt of the weekend? People were invading the IKEA. It was a few minutes away from a giant screen, etc. What do you guys make of this? Because in Bournemouth, in most provincial towns, this kind of stuff does honestly... I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it does happen pretty much every weekend. Every weekend there's an IKEA riot in Bournemouth. We have a long and rich tradition of IKEA riots here in the UK. People doing crazy stuff every weekend in provincial towns. Crazy stuff. The English are very strange people. So the question is, is it the beginning of fascism that we're seeing? Again, I'm not saying it's good, but it just seems like a continuity. They're very conservative institutions in this country, but very odd people. I mean, it depends. Uninhibited people. It depends what you see as an indication. I suppose the disclaimer is that it's not a big deal. It was some people who got pissed and jumped on a bed in IKEA. But the idea of attacking businesses because of their national origin after a football game is not who we're playing next, Croatia. Croatia. I don't know what Croatian businesses do we have anyway. Imagine we played Portugal, and although it's Portuguese, calf's got smashed in Brixton. Nothing was smashed, I suppose. I don't know. I think that is one of those things where lots of people are saying, well, look, the staff working there were Muslim. Imagine how they felt. They looked kind of shocked and amused. I think there's also sometimes a bit of a projection on the part of people who feel quite alienated by football culture anyway. And then they're kind of reaching for a reason to discredit it and kind of invoking the experiences of people of colour in a way which I sometimes find a bit like appropriative. I mean, not in a cultural appropriation kind of way. But I've noticed it a lot with people who just don't like football being like, oh, it's like made everyone really racist.  And you don't have to go to like a World Couple International Tournament to see that, right?  But it doesn't diminish my love for the game or the fact that it can bring people together. It's created this kind of weird summer forever vibe. Everyone's just going up to each other on the street saying that it's coming home. I quite like that. So I just kind of think like the work brigade needs to tone it down a few clicks. And if and or when it makes people start doing more racism on the street, well, that also shows the paucity of anti-racist politics.  That's a very good point. Yeah. And how do you feel about the sort of like the supporting Croatia Brigade? The sort of... I love Rakitich. Supporting the far right of Stase to trigger the Brexiteers. I think there's a ridiculous position which is that Britain are qualitatively the most evil country in the world and so you have to support anyone else. I don't think there's much sort of like historical basis. Yes, there is. Two words, my friend. Coronation chicken. No, I mean, I'm not saying like we were... Salad cream. We were great, but I don't think it's qualitatively different. Broiling the two ethnic minorities is just like, do you know what they've done to food? This is Huul 2.0, like... If you're Scottish or Welsh or Irish, there's just a legitimate tradition which is anyone but England, which I think... Is there an anyone but England tradition? Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the problem is, is that we don't qualify for the World Cup because... And the problem is, is that we're not used to... Because we can run, but we're not used to running in contained spaces because we're always running from the TV licensing people. Like, we like that move and target. We like round the alley, zip, gone. And that's why we won't qualify for the World Cup anytime soon. It's racist if you laugh at that. I wouldn't read tweets. The rivalry thing I get, right? The rivalry thing I get, but people are trying to dress up the rivalries thing as like, woke. It's not anti-imperialist to support Croatia, basically. Scots can hate the England team. They can support the other team. That's fine, but it doesn't mean... I'm an anti-fascist. Get the Croatian flag emoji on my Twitter, like, handle. No. That being said, I do love the Croatian team for two reasons. One, being Modric, because I still... Whenever I see a former Spurs player doing well at a big club, the way Modric has, or Gareth Bale, it's like when you see your ex getting married on a beautiful Thai beach and doing really well for themselves. And it's like a pang of jealousy, envy, that could be me. So I actually kind of want Modric to do that. Four Champions Leagues now? Three? I think three. And Rakitic, because I got to see him play when he was at Sevilla. The season before he moved to Barcelona, I think, and he was excellent. We're getting dangerously close to some sort of support for Croatia. No, no, no, no. I just don't believe in ethnically denigrating them. I'm supporting England. Dejan Lovren is fasc. Dejan Lovren is legit fasc. He missed that penalty for Liverpool. I know what all the teams are called now in the last four of the World Cup, but I can't say who you're talking about. There's a far right. There was ethnic cleansing in the country. There are far less Croat Serbs in Croatia than there were before when it was Yugoslavia. And Dejan Lovren, who's a Liverpool defender, was singing songs from the Civil War period. And that's not to denigrate all of them, because Sebastić, their goalkeeper, is ethnic Serb.  And it's just football.  Maybe you can't measure your anti-fascist credentials by not supporting people or supporting people with football. And maybe you should do something about fascism. Kind of wild. Let's move on to Westminster.  He kept going down too early. His hamstring was fucked. His hamstring went in the last minute, and they couldn't sub him off, because they'd use less subs. You know who did sub himself off? David, David. So, Michael, lay it on me, brother. It's presumably a really bad look if you do that in football, isn't it? You can't just sort of like in the 69th minute just say like, I'm done. I don't back these tactics anymore.  Again, I'm only going to have to pretend. May, Pay for Spurs was that monocoque. Now, he was slick. Sorry, I can't stop talking about football. May, I've actually got a good example. This is a 1982 World Cup. I wasn't alive in 1982. The 1982 World Cup, Kuwait was in the 1982 World Cup, and then they were losing like 2-0 or something.  He's like shouting at the referee.  And they'll go, I mean, I guess that's kind of how the Brags of tears feel right is that like, that sense of entitlement, they're not in control of the message. I don't think they're going to be for quite a while actually. But what was the deal with the like, checkers agreement? Because the thing is, this so much has happened in three days, including winning a quarter final and getting really, really drunk for some of us, which means that all of Friday's going on were deleted from my brain. So can someone please explain what kind of consensus was broached and then broken at checkers? None of us were concentrating on the weekend, Ash. I was combining pride with watching the football, and I was thinking how I could do that visually, but however much I can get into supporting England during this World Cup, there's nothing I find kind of more horrific than a pink England flag. So I didn't go there, I just watched it, it was nice. You asked me a serious question about Brexit, which I did research tomorrow, I do know the answer. What do you want to know? You want to know what happened at checkers? What happened at checkers, babe? The straw that broke the camel's back for David Davis and Boris Johnson, they've been trying for so long to put the national interest, the interest of the government before their own strange personal predilections. David Davis went so far as to resist resigning over one of his most deeply held principles, as Aaron was talking about, on a previous show. It's the cornerstone of his politics. If you want to see the commitment this guy has to the government and to the national interest, this guy was going to resign when David Davis was wanking at work. Damian Green. Damian Green. What did I say? David Davis was going to resign. Maybe it was a mutual. Did you just go that mutual? I am so very Muslim. Can I just remind you all that? None of that. It's a mutual. Well, a mutual masturbation. Because you would feel bad if you'd had a mutual. That would surprise me.  There's a sort of code, I think, if you've done that together. I think we should stop this because I think there may be some veracity in this. It might be true, so we'll get sued. I didn't say that. I think it's been said about certain politicians.  I'm pretty sure there's a super injunction out there. David Davis broke the mutual code, stayed in government even though Damian Green had been sacked. He's a guy who doesn't like to resign. He's pretty solid. He keeps doing this attention seeking, am I a resign or am I not? He's had a bi-election over ID cards. I'm anti-ID cards when it was a Labour policy. He's like, I'm going to have a bi-election in my constituents.  He's a clown. So this is just the latest episode. He does look like the home pride cartoon, right? It's uncanny. He also looks a bit like the Marshmallow Man in Ghostbusters. The original one. Not the one with all the women in it. There we go. I'm going to have to delete my Twitter account. Calm down, Milo. The age of hate. He didn't quit overwanking at work. He called a bizarre bi-election.  It was a soft Brexit. It was a soft Brexit. I did it the last 10 minutes. There was a soft Brexit, agreed it checkers. And obviously the people that won a hard Brexit were very angry. But why didn't he resign just at checkers then? So at checkers, Theresa May sort of was kind of mean. You know what I mean? Hey, you know what? That's just mean. Yeah, that's kind of mean. So she doesn't show them the deal beforehand. So they get there. They're not allowed to bring their advisers. They're not allowed to bring their mobile phones. She's sort of like five hours before the event gives them 150 pages to sift through. So they're sort of like a Brexiteer. Theresa May trying to ram this this document through the cabinet. On the day everyone sort of gives in apparently David Davis is quite quiet and moody thinking type. But then over the weekend he's pondering what he signed up to. He obviously campaigned for Brexit making a lot of promises about what would be possible. So he said we can be global Britain striking trade deals with the rest of the world. We don't need to be part of we don't need to be a vassal state as part of Europe. And if he were to implement the deal that they had made on Friday that would be him showing through his actions that what he previously promised was not possible. And I think at this point he wants out so he can blame the soft Brexit fudge on someone else. Even though he doesn't have an alternative I think it's a deeply egotistical move face to face with reality.  These compromises are not consistent with what I've rested my whole political career on so what I'm going to have to do is resign and pretend that when it goes in a direction I said it wouldn't is because of betrayal not because of economic and political realities. What you're getting now is 17.2 17.4 million people voted to leave and what you're now getting is this is not the Brexit these 17.2 million people voted for which is obviously a complete nonsense. There's a democratic mandate to leave the EU pretty broad ranging what that meant I mean we can be charitable to the Brexit ears I mean it clearly means changes to freedom of movement was a clear red line over the weekend because Theresa May basically was like we'll keep freedom of movement but we'll not call it freedom of movement we'll call it like you know the movement arrangement or something ridiculous. In the document it says end freedom of movement in the jungle market they call it what do they call it again? The facilitated customs arrangement but there's another customs union a shared rule book a shared rule book and it's like that's what we have there was a bunch well yeah I mean that's great if you're the EU that's great because obviously we export exports of services we're in the importer of goods it would make our trade deficit even worse but for the likes of Germany or whatever they export services and they export manufactured cars for instance but clearly you know that hardest of hard Brexit was never politically feasible and so now we're seeing that kind of play out but what's interesting is that even amongst Brexit ears I don't think there's a mandate for what these people now want to pursue What do you mean by what what people the government or No no people like David Davis who are presuming a Canada style agreement a trade deal with the EU Canada plus plus they want to keep city passport most people know I think you know there'd be a rump maybe 20% of the country who'll be like yes sick most people know that's not feasible and they know there has to be some even though we are leaving the EU there has to be some compromise with the other 48% of the country but also people who voted Brexit who don't want you know I mean by all standards the hardest of hard Brexit so yeah it's interesting time where it ends up who knows there were two things that I found quite interesting about the outcome one was the reports of dissensus and disquiet in the room itself so Boris Johnson saying this is polishing a turd it's a big turd for all his like famous Etonian rhetorical skills he just apparently kept saying the word turd a lot but ultimate capitulation when he was there same as David Davis and something that Stephen Bush was saying was quite interesting so this was something I was reading this morning which is that a lot has been made about the ministerial cars right that if you resigned you'd have to walk a whole mile down a driveway and then call a cab company which didn't exist and you know just long you out but probably the more important thing was that these ministers were being presented with a great deal of information without anyone to help them understand it or metabolize it particularly with David Davis he is just a large potato like he can't take on any new information or process detail in any way like there is a distinct probability that he simply didn't understand what he was agreeing to till he gets back to his department and his support network most likely Steve Baker were going what the fuck are you doing man so yeah they truly are a bunch of clowns what happens next from here so with Boris Johnson's resignation I think lots of people are saying that this is the first time since 1979 there's been a resignation of two cabinet ministers on the same day which is a huge deal right because when we're thinking about 1979 we're not just thinking about a crumbling political order we're thinking about a whole paradigm shift right and potentially could be that moment for the Labour Left I don't think that we're quite there yet but what's next what happens after Boris Johnson goes if you were an arch-brexiteer what would you be trying to engineer do you want to start with that yeah well I think there's a few variables missing for them to have their ideal scenario so there's no force to the right of the conservatives to push the mainstream media towards their sort of end of the spectrum so you haven't got Nigel Farage on BBC Questions every week we do as every fortnight now you haven't got UKIP polling 15% so the fact that there isn't an indicator for conservative Brexiteers I think poses them significant challenges where there is a clear spectrum of opinion to the remain side of them so to speak so I think they have a problem in that regard and I think people are just tired I think it's been two years and probably by their own standards they failed to really do particularly much I was listening to an interview today between Ian Dell and David Davis on LBC I mean nobody could be fucked anymore I mean it's kind of crazy so I guess it's about appetite and somebody was tweeting about oh Boris Johnson is doing this not Boris Johnson sorry David Davis has done this to steal a margin of Boris Johnson because he wants to be prime minister David Davis does not want to be the prime minister David Davis likes to look important he likes the ministerial cars he likes the nice expensive dinners and he just wants to fuck about he doesn't want a proper job he wants for quite a few of them I think Gove would quite like to be prime minister maybe Boris I don't think he's got it in him I think Penny Mordom would like to be prime minister I think Andrea Ledson would like to be prime minister but it's a real cluster fuck so the only thing that is sort of in their favour is the fact that Jeremy Corbyn is leading the opposition if it was Owen Smith or Tony Blair or Gordon Brown we would have had a general election already I mean we could have said that multiple times this year and I think it's true that there is not a continuity party for the establishment on the other benches I mean that seems exactly like right I don't think there is the parliamentary arithmetic to either bring down May or to bring down the government it doesn't seem like this was part of a well oiled plan where these two resignations would lead in sort of like a designed series of events to bring down Theresa May there isn't a majority within the Tory party who would prefer a single candidate so it seems unlikely that's going to happen what seems more likely to me is yet Boris Johnson and David Davis don't have any plan for how they are going to ever enter government again but they prefer to be on LBC talking about these big ideals that they once had about how we're not being ambitious enough and it's nice because they get to go on TV and they never have to do a plan they're clearly not very good at plans they're not very good at the nitty-gritty detail of politics they're both spent in terms of their careers I mean obviously at one point both of them wanted to be prime minister everything is over now so I think they'd prefer to retire from the current front bench and be big characters I mean for the future of British politics what's interesting is that now there is establishment and mainstream figureheads saying the government has betrayed the Brexit vote so before now there really hadn't been there were sort of inklings among members of the population obviously Jacob Reece Mogg Nigel Farage on LBC saying this is Brexit in name only but all the big dogs because they were in the conservative cabinet this was the one sort of intelligent thing that Theresa May did even though it hasn't really helped her government survive it did shut them up a little bit for two years so now they're going to be off the leash and they can be out with their big flamboyant egos on tv shows saying the government is not being ambitious enough the 52% are being sold down the river and if that builds up a significant sort of popular support for a party to the right of the conservatives or sort of is threatening enough to I mean because that's how the Tories shifted to such a Eurosceptic position because there was UKIP challenging all these MPs in their constituency so if that can re-emerge again we could see a harder Brexit I mean I don't think the timing works for them because that's a long-term game I mean I'll just say quickly as well David Davis and Boris Johnson have literally achieved nothing in politics Oh Brexit No as ministers like Boris Johnson in 2010 to 2015 Boris Johnson wasn't anywhere he wasn't in the cabinet he didn't have a serious job David Davis wasn't anywhere in government you know they didn't have a ministerial brief where Michael Gove transformed schools in this country for us obviously you know Grayling and Hunt have made huge reforms to the NHS they've not done something substantial like that neither of them these old fucks these old like weirdo crank men have actually achieved anything as national ministers so the idea that they're going to go out there and now to re-determine a national conversation they'll go on the sofas they'll go on the stay program they'll chat breeze with the indale on the head and sometimes actually delivering a really concrete political transformation which is what that kind of hard breaks it would have to be I don't think they've got it in them there's nothing on their political CV that suggests that I mean I think that in more competent hands hard Brexiters could present a legitimate political threat which is constructing a program which is not much more than ultra-nationalist rhetoric and a realignment of Britain geopolitically and geo-economically towards America I think that in more competent hands that could happen but you're right they're clowns and Boris Johnson in particular I think has frittered away any illusion of credibility that he may have once had just because people are impressed by a posh who knows like some bits of Latin I'm not talking about James Butler he's not a posh he's not here to defend himself I'm so sorry if he's watching you can comment and just be like fuck you Ash but yeah because I think people like there is that instinctive deference in British political culture and I think that you know Boris Johnson has exhausted that even something which I thought was impossible but there has been a lot of talk about things like a no confidence vote a possible leadership election within the conservative party and I'm still unsure about what the choreography is towards that and if that is just sort of hype amongst the Westminster lobby where there really isn't an appetite for it within the conservative party so there were rumors flying around that there would be the 48 signatures needed to like hand it to the 1922 committee we'll do the procedural nitty gritty let's do some procedural nitty gritty because listen I'm watching Love Island and like that is truly a lawless place no rule but I went on Wikipedia this afternoon right so I was doing my makeup just to sweat it off a leadership challenge can be triggered if 15% of Tory MPs literally I haven't even put it in my own word May's conservative party wait that's a footnote citation 9 oh god sorry 15% of Tory MPs have to send a letter to this 1922 fella committee babe it's a committee but that's the chair of the committee and we call him the 1922 fella and so they have to send a letter to say we want to trigger a vote no confidence in Theresa May they've probably got enough people to do that there's 48 of them but if they have there's 48 people who want to get rid of Theresa May basically but if you trigger a no confidence vote you've also got to win it and there's little suggestion that May would lose a no confidence vote because even though she's not particularly particularly popular in the conservative party there's no other unity candidate or any candidate that could get more than 50% support so it seems like we might have a no confidence vote she'll probably win it not the most dramatic event I mean she might lose it I don't think she'll lose it the thing is I've seen a few journalists say this doesn't really change anything most Tory MPs as with most Labour MPs the majority of parliamentarians of their constituents the voters in their constituencies voted leave so they will at least have to be the sort of appearance of backing a Brexit this is obviously going to be contingent on where those seats are Anasubis and less troubled than Jake Barry both ultimately are relevant people but even if the Conservatives aren't in power for the next 25 years these people want to keep their seats so I think there will have to be a significantly higher number than 48 of them showing displeasure at the May Agreement is it enough to get rid of her? probably not but I think it's probably I mean it might be double the 48 and that's quite a lot of people the thing is if you're a Brexiteer or you're in a big leave seat and you're then backing a deal which the leading Brexiteers who've got the biggest brand recognition with the electorate have walked away from your career could be over I think it is significant I don't think she'll go, no but I don't think a general election is very likely I do think a replacement of leader is likely maybe not immediately but maybe before the end of the year and I would imagine maybe a Pennymore Don character should be good she's got a relatively safe seat in Portsmouth North I think maybe 10,000 majority younger, good speaker helps when you're leading Theresa May pretty clean skin in politics you could tell all these things about Amberud of course her majority is about 400 so I think and also not really a clean skin right widely discredited as not just a liar but an incompetent liar let me rewind Amberud 12 months ago she's kind of like a little Amberud's many me there's a few like that led some of course certainly not a clean skin so I think Pennymore there's trust she's great on Instagram I mean maybe she's not by the way but she does try there's a YouGov poll out today and I tweeted it and the way YouGov reported the raw data was interesting they say oh you know a slight majority of Tories want Theresa May to leave either immediately in a year's time or straight after Brexit which basically about 57% of Tories wanted to leave in the next 18 months everything was only 28% of Tories sorry members want her to stay 28% so again it just goes back to under normal conditions and none of this would be tenable but of course the alternative is Jeremy Corbyn I mean yeah I think in the short term Theresa May is not under as in the short term is in like the next two weeks I don't think she's going to lose a vote of no confidence unless some sort of master plan emerges from behind her and someone shows more immediate leadership than we've seen so far but the crunch moment is going to be when she has to win a parliamentary vote on the Brexit deal that she comes back within October if she does come back with a deal in October or November is when they're going to vote on it and so at that point 48 conservative back benches would really matter so they could potentially the European Research Group of whom there were 62 signatories on that ransom letter yeah so in February 62 members of the European Research Group signed a letter to Theresa May saying that she was going too soft on Brexit and they wanted her to stand firm to some hard Brexit red lines I could get them up but I mean we can imagine them can't we just imagine those and they could they could defeat that and so that's why lots of people are saying now that Theresa May's premiership will rely on her winning over a number of labour rebels so we can assume that Theresa May's plan partly for political reasons I mean they obviously need to vote against the government on the biggest issue of the day but I think also for practical reasons so one of the one of the powers that Theresa May is going to be very willing to give away to the EU are on things like state aid so it was said very explicitly in that checkers agreement that we will happily let the EU sort of determine rules on what aid what support government can give to businesses because that's not only acceptable to Theresa May who doesn't have much plan in sort of but doesn't have much plan to implement ambitious industrial policy it's almost attractive for the Tories because that can be used to restrain a future Corbyn government so there'll be plenty reasons for the Labour front bench to vote against that deal I think what Theresa May is going to try and do is have some of the Melty centrists on the back bench of the Labour party voting with Theresa May in the national interest and on the most moderate the level that we normally see in Parliament that would involve 20 to 40 Labour MPs saying we're going to vote in the national interest with Theresa May's deal they'll probably call Jeremy Corbyn irresponsible on the more ambitious one you could see some sort of national government so if Theresa May loses the confidence of enough Tory back benches who really want a super hard Brexit and those Labour rebels are sort of saying we could vote with you but you might have noticed we haven't had many opportunities for promotion recently we kind of want a political future for us to save your premiership can you invite us into government that would be the most dramatic way we'll need a change of PM I think that would be the price it would be purely cosmetic in terms of the national agenda but then you need to ditch the DUP is Chucker I don't rate the guy, I don't like the guy is he really going to go into government with the DUP so what I think with people like Chucker is that they don't want to be in the Labour Party anymore they want to form a centrist party and they can either form a centrist party as a fringe group with sort of at best 6 MPs because most of them would lose in a general election if they stood as independents probably all of them but at best 6 I think probably Chucker would lose his seat but if they managed to enter into some sort of like formal national government alliance with the Tories then when they stand they've got a greater chance of winning they've got a bit more status and potentially if she's invited them into government if they've had a junior ministerial position then if they do lose their seats in the next election it's easier for them to get a job because it's better on their CVs so I think people like Chucker Amuna might sell out the entire Labour movement for 3 months work experience before a general election you're going to need like 30, 40, 50 people to do this well it depends how many of the Tories because that's going to be distasteful to quite a lot of the Tories this sort of like cross party national government unless you see some mega realignment in parliament between sort of like centrist, soft remainers, hard Brexitas and the Labour Party I love the idea of a Ramsey MacDonald sort of Mark II I just, I mean it seems implausible I mean so the question that I wanted to ask you is that if you're Jeremy Corbyn or one of his advisors is what would you be advising him to do? Because he was in great form today and that kind of killer line was if you can't govern then make way for those who can but it always seemed to be stopping short of using words like general election or no confidence vote avoiding the actual mechanisms by which you can have a change of government and we know that the Fixed Terms Parliament Act which is I think the biggest piece of Weisman legislation so like clog up our law books fuck you Nick Leg is a huge stumbling block in that regard so we're kind of all gaming lots of different potential outcomes I think that this piece of legislation does make it easier for there to be a kind of you know a significant number of Labour MPs to cross the floor and go in some kind of weird unity government as Michael was saying but if you're Corbyn and you're having to manage a significant number of remain rebels within your own party much smaller number of Labour leavers and you're trying to bring down a government at the same time how would you go about beginning that choreography what is the first step in that direction because the problem with a sense of parliamentary inertia a great deal of free fall but not very much rock bottom to hit is that you lose no pun momentum or that sense of you know an emotional tie to change coming and just being around the corner in terms of the electorate and people who will want to go out and campaign for you what do we do I mean I'm probably the wrong person to ask I'd say you know introduce mantry, selection of half year MPs I don't think I'm like Aaron what do I wear on a first date it's like mandatory re-selection in terms of what would be the best public relations move in terms of sort of like boosting Labour in the polls basically I think the strongest attack at the Tories at the moment is they're a bunch of massive egos playing politics at a crucial moment in the future of British economy and society and Labour are there to step in if they can't get it together but first of all we should be demanding they get it together, I mean we don't need to be but the official opposition should be demanding that they get it together because there probably isn't that much public appetite at this point for a general election unless it feels absolutely 100% necessary so I think the idea of Corbyn standing there looking like a statesman as the Tories all sort of like fight like rats in a sack isn't that bad an idea I think we're going to have monkeys in a barrel it was that one as well I was going for a little bit more of a sadity but you weren't rats in a sack which is quite dark I'm curious because I agree with you obviously but when we'll lay the appetite for a general election that's the thing right because we had a referendum in 2014 Scottish independence, we had a general election in 2015 we had Labour leadership we had Brexit in 2016 we had a general election in 2017 this has never happened before a serious national referendum or a general election five consecutive years this would be the fifth year obviously that potokens a crisis of the British state or economic model the final sort of demise of our post-imperial place in the world clearly it's really really big I think a lot of people grasp that now the profundity of it but when is a good time to have a general election well I mean obviously I think if it looked like a general election was going to happen but I suppose it's what's the benefit of demanding a general election because you demand a general election it doesn't actually make it any more likely all you're doing is optics and I think one thing the Labour Party are probably thinking is that if we put on the pressure like the more the Tory backbenchers rebel the more likely you are to have a call in government that's going to be a benefit to Mae basically because that's the one thing she has to discipline her backbenchers which is that if they rebel against her they could be kicked out of parliament and they'd have who they consider someone to the left of I don't know Fidel Castro going for a very obvious left-wing character we get a general election this year Brexit, Mark II referendum the year after Indiref, Mark II referendum the year after General like this is this is a moment of crisis the British state we might have a fucking election every year for a decade oh my god I'm defecting to North Korea well that's what I mean like the idea that people have already got fatigue here I agree of course they have but like it's not stopping I don't want that to look like the failure of the so I think if people see election after election after election they're going to see there's some kind of crisis in the governing class here they're not going to be saying oh they just want us to have a bigger say they're going to be saying these people can't get their shit together and so when there's an election which is a result of the government not being able to get their shit together you want to have the blame squarely on the government which I think is probably the game they're playing now is to say if we have a general election and the fact that the Tories haven't got it together obviously if it happens we'll fight it we'll win it and we'll negotiate a much more positive Brexit for the country and act like adults so then I have a question in terms of strategy and I think that I mean he's not right on much there's not much that I agree of them on but the McTanonator the Peckham McTanonator tweeted me today saying what Theresa May has is tactics not strategy and I think that's largely true in terms of like the goal is clearly just to like kind of get her barely limping carcass over the line of March 2019 and her goals are increasingly short-sighted but one of the things that I was thinking about in terms of strategy is that if Theresa May's only way to sustain her premiership is to commit herself to the softest of Brexit and not aim only but you're kind of you know selling some key points down the river in terms of freedom of movement because like neoliberals are racist anyway stay eggs, neoliberals don't want it anyway in such a way that could potentially broker a very delicate balance of interest in terms of some of the labour right is that would it be prudent because I know that the general consensus amongst team and media is either undecided on a second referendum or against a second referendum I'm personally undecided would there not be something strategic in putting that on the table to try and keep progressive remainers and even attempt a couple of Tory remainers over So for Labour to call for a referendum on the deal basically or saying that if there were to contest a general election that would be on the manifesto So that's what Paul Mason was saying today I personally think it's a terrible idea the only motivation I can see for calling a referendum on the deal is if you actually want remain because I mean so you can have free options on it I suppose either you have the deal, no deal and remain you could have free options on a referendum and then like some really bizarre tactical voting you'd have to give people a one and a two otherwise you might end up with some deal that no one really wants anyway What would Labour campaign on for a start I mean I suppose if they were in government a soft Brexit deal they'd negotiate it Yeah they're going to have to get that through Parliament themselves But if it's a soft Brexit deal that they've negotiated then why go to, I suppose you can go to the referendum if you're going to struggle to get it through Parliament but I think to be honest the kind of Brexit deal that Labour would get which would be a softish Brexit that looks a bit like the shared market you probably could have a parliamentary majority for unless I suppose you had sort of like hostile group core who were saying we're going to vote against it then as leverage to get that through Parliament the Labour front bench had to call a referendum I think that's the only way it could happen actually See I think this is where people who watch Navarra regularly will hear me use this line many times they're probably very bored of it the Machiavelli line of it's better to make mistakes of ambition than mistakes of sloth I think this is one moment and I'm averse to a second referendum if it's got the no deal stop Brexit option but I would not be adverse to averse to Labour having a clear position on soft Brexit clear lines that would go into our festo and take it to the country right now and I think that having a referendum after they enter government openly talking about it now if Jeremy Corbyn does an event in a leave seat going this is a offer here's why I think you should vote for Labour in the next general election and this is what we would deliver in terms of leaving the EU I think we're getting to the point where Labour are going to have to do that it can't just be about and I don't want to I don't want to shoot my load when it's not necessary right? like these fucking Muppets have been doing for the best part of two years but we're getting there now it's going to happen the next six months to a year Labour is going to have to set out its stall in terms of what it wants to implement as Brexit in government and I think it is an opportunity to have a bigger conversation with the public about a range of issues and actually put this thing to bed properly I don't think a parliamentary vote will do that can I tell you what some of my concerns are about a second referendum and to be fair I've had these reservations less about the perspective that you've been speaking from which is getting a mandate workers rights etc etc more about what will it take to stay in the EU because that's what a lot of my very close friends think and I've got a personal preference for you know keep me in cheap Prosecco it's lady petrol but my we stay in the single market of goods you can still have exactly the same I just want to get tanked every weekend is that too much to ask but what my reticence on it has been in terms of the remain position one is a lack of clear strategy on how to win but I think that what you've said sounds more plausible but secondly is that I think for any side that has perceived to be a remain position to lose the second time around ultimately would be much more dangerous for people of colour in this country from other countries as well because I think that there is a growing sense in the global north that to be on the side of more immigration and more progressive immigration policy is always going to be directly antithetical to the will of the people and I think that that's a really dangerous territory that Britain is currently in anyway right as with I think most countries in the global north couple that with a narrative about well not only is there this kind of plot to have more immigration and more progressive immigration against your will but now they're directly aligned with some kind of political interest which is at the top to subvert the will of the people as have been laid out in 2016 I think that experientially puts us in a really dangerous position and I think that one of my thoughts today kind of going up over and over like this kind of you know Westminster sped up pinter play has been that actually these big social shifts the stuff of politics as emotional affect hasn't been adequately dealt with by the left in this country I don't think that we've successfully addressed the question of immigration we've edged around it a bit we've taken communities like Wind Rush where we can occasionally lurched into left nationalism where we don't feel able to do so but the central question of how do we address racism in this country how do we decouple this notion of control from the very presence and existence of migrants in this country nothing's been done and until I see either at the revival of a left-wing economically redistributive socialist movement in this country or stronger noises and strategy from the Labour left in tackling that I would think that calling for a second referendum is too great a risk to take I agree the idea of continuity near liberalism and a part of the progressive left backing that I mean we know it's a recipe for disaster and if you had that plus like a national coalition of some kind I mean it's literally a fast track to like you know if you're the far right it's directly over the last 100 years it's like it's a fucking kerosene so you can still envisage a certain set of variables where UKIP will become highly relevant again I still think it's very unlikely and again I think it's very unlikely because of Jeremy Corbyn this could have played out very differently over the last two years we could have had Owen Smith as Labour leader we could have said well where are you going to do a remain and we'd have a second referendum and it loses 60-40 Labour do lose several dozen seats to UKIP you can see how it could have played out I think we've missed that going back to your point about immigration it's now since Brexit it's fallen down the list of people's political priorities and the key question is I don't know the answer to this is that because Brexit is just now seen as well that's going to deal with it so it's just temporarily suspended as a salient political issue or being opposed you know we still don't quite know how to signify what it actually meant clearly if you were a progressive you kidded yourself that or even on the radical left you kidded yourself that it's just economics if anyone could have a socialist agenda it wouldn't be so problematic if you were on the right you said well look it's because people are white Britain again I mean it's going to be far more complex than both of those stories right but we're not quite sure about the extent to what people really meant when they said we want to get immigration down and why it meant a range of things including precisely that right that's still going to take a couple of years to work out I don't think it's going to wait personally I personally feel that Brexit has been a useful floating signifier political horizon for me to draw on rhetorically to talk about why there's going to be a massive change in immigration policy and leaning into what I know and what I think to be empty rhetoric around global Britain say well why don't we rather than starting the conversation with Protect Freedom of Movement for EU Nationals especially white supremacist projects why don't we have a conversation about bringing non-EU migrants up to parity or starting to think about a more equitable system and distribution of visas etc etc for me that's been a useful thing to lean into in terms of the left people on the left right white people don't like me anyway that's just you babe just you and alienating my ex I called someone's ex an asshole on last week's show you did I don't know the guy I did it in solidarity with Wendy but apparently he's really nice apologies to Wendy it's from the whole Navarra media team I'm sure you're not an asshole please go to support.avarramedia.com in the words of Slavin Billich personally I don't really care I don't care if you're an asshole no difference to me I have a bit of a crush on Slavin Billich he used to be really good looking about 15 years ago no no no no still it's that kind of because one he self-identifies as a socialist oh really he's got that kind of stern energy do you know what I mean he was a filthy player he knows how to iron his shirt he was a filthy player I'm going to be brutal even though I think the question about freedom of movement might be helpful as a way into conversations with leftists about migration I feel like it is too soon to have that argument head on I feel like Brexit was a wake-up call to the left and the entire political establishment actually and I think we got off lightly in America their wake-up call that sort of political establishment had ignored the working class in deindustrializing regions who were told they should accept gradual slow decline to where the world was not theirs anymore that was a backlash against that obviously that's not the only people that voted for Trump but that's who swung it exactly the same with Brexit they were the people who swung it those people who had been told by the political establishment for 30 years that the future is not yours you have to accept slow decline that has in many ways manifested itself in anti-immigrant politics but not only there's loads of elements to that politics and I think both Trump and Brexit are a wake-up call that the left needs to re-establish relationships and links with those communities and start taking seriously those demands that these people don't want to accept gradual decline and Salvini we could have Salvini in this country with the shit he's saying I mean like you said we got off lightly we start that project yeah he's like he's another level so I think it's ultimately quite a defensive project at this point which is to sort of say we had been relying on in this case a neoliberal institution to defend a policy that we happen to like which was freedom of Europe freedom of movement within Europe obviously politically it has lots of problems why is it freedom of movement in only Europe not the whole world I mean I'm not even convinced by freedom of movement in the whole world I think that could also have politically terrifying consequences in terms of if that leads to a massive rise of fascism in Britain I'm not sure that when you take government policy out of the hands of democratic institutions it often works particularly well so I think yeah if you take this as a wake-up call I think no one on the left or the right actually has a particularly workable plan for a hard Brexit I know that the Lexit people sort of say they generally tell you a history about how the EU is a neoliberal institution they haven't really heard a concrete plan about how you have a Lexit that sort of builds a socialist Britain that doesn't get much poorer it's always hard to sell things when you're going to make the country poorer so I'd go for soft Brexit don't piss anyone off any further about sort of like Brexit or remain I think let's do a fudge we do a fudge and then we rebuild our movement and the unifying thing will be socialism not the EU no see I just think that that is too complacent because I think already within... that's going to be pretty hard to be honest I mean I'm just saying let's make it harder and I guess I'm coming at this from a slightly different perspective which is first and foremost before I'm a communist before my investment in this iteration of the labour project first and foremost my politics are anti-racist I've never made any apologies for that it starts from how I got politicised to subsequent interactions with the anti-war movement Palestine solidarity etc etc it's always come from a position of recognition of racialised exclusions from institutions that confer social life is a really fancy way of putting it and what I worry about is that in this fudge and in that space of just not having an anti-racist strategy not even saying well okay it's a fudge for so long but like then we're going to do this this and this or like this is how we're going to engage these questions down the line is that that is read by the forces of zeno-racism which are very much in the ascendant as ground for them to take are they in the ascendant in this country do you think? compared to two years ago? I think that while it slid down the list of priorities I think that there have been huge capitulations to the notion that immigration itself decoupled from issues like housing stuff, decoupled from the fact that wage reform was not immigrants' fault there's been a huge capitulation that the presence of social and racial others is itself a social ill and you only have to look at John Humphries' line of questioning I think the other week on the Today Programme I forget who he was interviewing he was like you don't experience what it's like to be forgettable guy some politician seen past it you know that episode of Black Mirror where you block someone and then you just can't see them anymore and you hear a buzz that's how it is with Blair for me he was questioning him saying that you are separate from the lives of average everyday people whose lives are transformed by immigration and they experience the knock on effects is that that capitulation that the logic that it's the very presence of other people that will have a knock on effect on your material conditions I think is something which is just an accepted feature of the political landscape now I think it was higher up people sent a list of priorities two years ago because it felt like more of a fight it's a fight that progressives and anti-racists lost in my view and I'm still really worried about that and what I'm worried about is that when we see this ground when I talk about the forces of Zeno racism I'm talking also about forces within the Labour Party itself which are happy to accept I think some level of racialised exclusion from the mechanisms which redistribute wealth and address income inequalities and all the rest of it that the yeah we're seeding all that ground that's not really a progressive socialism white socialism I was going to say something that would get me the worst ratio if I ever typed it on Twitter I think we need to start thinking about an anti-racist fudge on borders I'm all for fudges you can have anti-racism as a red line so you say sort of like we as a political project have any kind of racism as an absolute red line but border controls are not racist I know you've done a video where you think border control is racist I don't think they are I think they function in a racist way but I don't think they're essentially racist I think the history of them is racist everything's racist right no no but I mean they are and they aren't I mean ontologically the point is to discriminate between one set of people and another of course they are but at the same time they're so ubiquitous but is it on basis of race or not for me racism is when you discriminate on the basis of race whereas borders they discriminate on the basis of what political community is involved with yeah but then you like political communities in this country and the history of borders developing as the technology of governance those are racialised constructs and until we do some work in decoupling that which I don't think is happening then yes I do think that border that's exactly what I'm talking about though decoupling borders from racism which is very different from saying no borders tell me how this fudge works also I'm fully on board with you know not every day scream no borders because actually what I want is something that's effective rather than something that's pure so I'm with you on you know in that regard I don't think you have to go in you know wielding your Angela Davis on absolutely every matter but tell me what that fudge actually is I mean I don't think it's that complicated to say how would you have a policy on borders that isn't no borders and how do you have a policy on borders which respects that fact that freedom of movement didn't have any democratic support or didn't have enough democratic support and have anti-racist policies I mean quite a lot of brown people voted to end freedom of movement I don't think opposition to migration Michael what you're basically saying is we need more BAME women border guards for fuck's sake what you're basically saying and a pride float that's not what I'm saying I'm joking no no we agree here there are two separate categories in politics there's the moral and there's the useful and often there's attention and you need to sort of lean in towards one or the other and I think we probably agree about useful but you make these points and agree about often I think you're talking nonsense that's a really good point Michael so I won't interrupt you again we should do the breaking news shouldn't we Jeremy Hunt guess his new job is it foreign secretary who's going to run the NHS who's going to look after the NHS who's going to save the NHS than Jeremy Hunt's going foreign secretary that's a perfectly moral sentence in our language he'll turn up to stuff right I mean that's more than Boris maybe he's perfectly suit to it because he looks like a newt and he just seems happy to be included at any given time he does look like a newt don't you think he looks like a surprise newt he looks really young given he's destroyed one of the most precious institutions in his country he looks great for his age he's just like I think he creeps down hospitals like stealing stem cells and injecting them directly into his neck he's a line from when I was on my phone if the camera cuts something I wasn't looking on twitter or whatsapp I was actually looking for this question he was googling non-racist border guards I was like bane women border guards pride ok so this is Isaac Deutsche speaking to American students at the height of student activism in the 1960s quote you are effervescently active on the margin of social life and the workers are passive right at the core of it that is the tragedy of our society if you do not deal with this contrast you will be defeated and I think that for me is the crux of what we're talking about so I don't want an effervescent anti-racism at the margins of social life I would far rather I think I would agree with this right I'd far rather a slightly diluted conversation and get to the very heart of working class life and conversations in this country and that's not just on the telly by the way that's in all manner of place and it's going to take probably the best part of the rest of our lives so I often think that that kind of that effervescence it does tend to be a major disease it does tend to be among younger university graduates while I agree with it I question and maybe this is what Michael was trying to say in a roundabout way the thing is I agree with you I completely agree with you and if I didn't make that compromise on some level I wouldn't be hustling for Corbyn I wouldn't have any engagement with the Labour Party at all probably but it's because I agree with you I want to be at the centre of people's political, social lives up and down the country but I don't think that that but I don't think that that aim is being considered enough or being actively pursued as a goal at this moment I think it's being evaded that's what my point is it's not saying that Jeremy Corbyn has given up online borders because I think that's a dumb point to make to be honest he might have once believed it though yeah maybe 3 years ago but what my point is I don't think that that's being considered because I think that in terms of going back to what the McTernanator had said about the difference between tactics and strategy I think we've got anti-racist tactics I don't think we have anti-racist strategy I think anti-racism has to become a more central part of the Labour project I don't think that has much to do with freedom of movement and I also think it would be a pretty difficult moment at this point to say we're going to increase migration but it has a lot to do with Brexit as a political horizon perceived as a moment of break with the past in some way or a return to the past if you're made of gammon but it does have a relationship I think to British imperialism, nostalgia for it or a sense of departure as you were saying from being in this rut of post-imperial malaise and then thinking about how race has been coupled up with images of national decline and what the decoupling looks like I think is central to the Labour project because also, just at its most basic level for there to be a hyper-exploitable racialised class is antithetical to any socialist project I think I don't think you can be a socialist to make your peace with that Shall we take some comments? I want to take one that was directly a critique of what I just said Don't like Michael's framing of missionary leftism we leftists have to talk to post-industrial areas some of us leftists are in post-industrial areas it's a good point I should clarify, the way I'm talking about that is that unambiguously the Democratic Party did abandon post-industrial areas so they used to have union organisations and strong representations in what's now the Rust Belt and their constituency and sort of like their power bases moved away from those areas exactly the same as the Labour Party that obviously does not mean that leftists only live in the cities but it means that the big institutions of the left i.e. the big mainstream left-wing political parties and to be fair the left I've been part of which is the sort of like university campus left until I joined the Labour Party has been very much focused on sort of like cosmopolitan cities and has basically ignored regions which were once the core of social democratic parties and I don't think the answer is for the answer is the opposite of dismissing leftists that live in those areas it's to say we need to bring those into those big social democratic institutions or centre them in those social democratic institutions which has not happened for 30 years. I mean it's in disputes as well I mean UKIP had like 120 odd second places in the 2015 election many of them were in the affluent south but also many were in the north-east and Labour safe seats Trump's path to the White House was it's so funny when you watched the video from you've got Cenk Oiga from the young Turks 25% shares Hillary is going to win tonight and then it's like it's going through all the states by the time he gets to Wisconsin he's like I think Trump could win there but then it's going to like Ohio, Yadda Yadda Yadda and he won it because of the Rust Belt This is a good question Will right wing media back maze soft Brexit? The Times will right if that's what you mean Is that right wing media it's got a paywall nobody actually reads it The Times will the Daily Mail won The Establishment Payport Telegraph will You think it would? Who's the alternative right as leader that's the thing Who's the actual alternative as leader They like Stabil I think the Daily Mail quite like to blow stuff up in the same way that Boris Johnson and David Davis did so I reckon they won't back it but The Times probably will But The Alternatives will be done I think The Times will back it I don't think the telegraph will No I think that they're in a hard Brexit little rut I think they've developed a set of rhetorical devices and strange logical contortions to back hard Brexit I think that they'll continue shooting their dear leader in the foot Sounds good Matt Hancock has been promoted to the health It's not called the health office is it but anyway he's the health minister Do you want to know something weird is a few months ago I was at the enemy awards and I saw Matt Hancock there getting drunk with Stella Creasy Big Buds I watched you I think there was a squawk box story about that That wasn't me I was busy getting drunk on my own terms Well I don't know anything about Matt Hancock but Impostor's TV says if you can't get any ketamine listening to Matt Hancock has the same effect Sick I never liked ketamine like Matt Hancock if I do some research tomorrow Any other questions, comments Can you clarify why the EU is the white supremacist project Okay what I mean by white supremacist project is that trade arrangements within the EU have been at the expense of the development in particular of Africa The freedom of movement has not been freedom of movement for all people within the EU We can see that by the way in which borders have been enforced by various member states particularly thinking of Hungary thinking of also Austria here against migrants coming from Syria and then we can also think about the enforcement of fortress Europe and the fact that really the reason why there hasn't been a tremendous amount of conflict stay between Italian proposals for change search and rescue and what the EU is already doing is largely the same let people drown en masse who have been coming through one of the most dangerous over land and then sea routes in terms of irregular border crossings in the world through the Sahara and then being stranded at Libya often tortured, often detained in tremendously inhumane conditions and then made the rest of their way in completely unsee worthy vessels So that's what I mean by it's a white supremacist organisation I don't think that that I mean I wasn't then one of those people that then could bring myself to vote for Brexit back in 2016 I was a reluctant remainder so I had all these critiques but then had a look at who was on the other side I was on the tube home one night and I saw these guys wearing the leave.eu badges all of them like had these like stains around their mouth of like red wine and ports and kind of like you know that kind of corpulent like half-collapsed posture of like you know drunk middle aged men and then two of them got off and one of them was just sat there muttering to himself we're gonna win and then like called someone like a racial slur like under his breath like while he was just chatting to himself and I was like oh my god like that's the other side Sorry that's a really depressing story to tell about like why the EU is white supremacist and why I didn't like leave I mean we can I think whether it's white supremacist is up to debate I mean you know obviously it's a contested term isn't it I think it's certainly racist in a lot of its policies and in terms of its genesis why did the EU come about it's because fundamentally in the by the early 1950s it was clear that in a world the United States has a market of 300 million people not there now 150 million 200 million people there you've got the security threat of the USSR you've got China etc the great powers of Europe did not have sufficiently large markets to have multinational corporations that could compete at a global level so they had to integrate their markets so with the that was particularly personal because of course their colonial markets were disappearing and the reason why we joined in 1973 is because it's clear that there are higher rates of growth in Western Europe it's a far more prosperous market for our exports potentially than New Zealand India Zimbabwe so that's what we do it's purely economic reason why we go and join it but also then tariffs imposed at the expense of developing African and Asian nations but it was purely about consolidating European capitalism it was purely about consolidating European capitalism that's it which of course that came out of the vacuum of the end of colonial empire so the idea that its genesis is woke or in any way anti-racist is clearly nonsense should we start to wrap up I think we should start to wrap up one very quick last thing to cover which is at the end of the week to just sort of pour some cool soothing water on British politics we've got Trump's visit I thought you were going to say the World Cup final but we have got Trump's visit and I don't know about you guys but I will be at the stop Trump protest on Friday the 13th very ominously under the shadow of the big baby balloon because I think it's really important that as many people as possible get out there and make it clear to you know the in chief that his values are not shared by the majority of people in this country we don't welcome sexual harassers in this country I'll be there as well my final point is going to be mundane but very very important which is please go to support not develop support even though I'm begging all the time support.navaramedia.com we really need your donations to make this possible so click subscribe or donate I need to check out that web page both click subscribe click donate we need your donations to make a left wing media possible so we can keep doing these shows every Monday and every time the government gets one step closer to collapsing on its face I mean the thing is we if there is a general action we would be doing this sort of stuff every night we obviously do a range of other podcasts we've been doing all sorts of video explains etc etc it's done to a very high level I think people presume that because you know we're shooting in 4k although not this high quality audio and if there is a delay it's because it's the first 24 hours we're being posted on YouTube relax people think we've got all the money in the world we haven't a lot of it's built in volunteerism we want to pay everybody in the organization at least a couple days a month we're really proud that we pay our articles contributors because that for me was really beautiful which was to say your work is worth something and will be that platform but I don't think people realise that we don't get paid for this this is why I wear low cut tops all the time some people freelance here and there but primarily it's volunteerism support.novaramedia.com I wanted to say as well about this and about populism and about naming the people so if you know you can imagine how somebody could be looking at Britain on Friday and Sunday stop Trump demo could be massive I don't want to jinx it by putting a number on it it could be huge huge political statement which is international news on the Sunday and England team again touch word we might even get to the final I think semi-finals been a success so it doesn't matter but you know on the Sunday we could be in a World Cup final and win that I think France and Belgium are ultimately better sides Croatia isn't but again who knows with you know a very diverse team not just of us because they're multi-racial but also because they come from every region of England really which is also equally interesting and important for me I was kind of happy somebody said we've got the back three are all Yorkshireman and Karl Walker's mixed race and all that's really cool the way that the framing wasn't that it was you know the region they were from and a lot of people could look at that and go wow what a brilliant place and I think it's important to do two things firstly yes that's obviously a great image to have and we shouldn't denigrate it and it is you know and it is calling into into being naming the people which is what populism does but at the same time not get relaxed about it because in a way it also doesn't reflect Britain right that the stop Trump movement has been contested and built and fought for three or four years ago you know that would have been no or you know let's say pre 2010 if there was a very right-wing abusive US president coming to Britain that wouldn't have happened right it's there because the left is historically quite strong and not just within the Labour Party either right just generally speaking and simultaneously if an England team wins a world cup you know that in no way reflects the reality of England and the reason why I celebrate the England team the reason why I would happily wear a shirt or have the St George's Cross in England match never the union flag is that I think they've betoken what minority majority country will look like we need a politics that fits that because we don't and if we're going to start rejecting avatars of our future then I think the left is irrelevant so support England because it's just beautiful to see Tottenham finally make it to the semi-finals or something Kiran Tripoli is the best right back in the world what has happened so well even Ali came through and I was in a pub on Essex Road alienating this Guna pub by like screaming at the top of my lungs you know that we've got Ali on so for me it's not about left nationalism it's about retrenching tribal North London rivalries but you guys have both been great and thank you all for watching we will be here same place same time next week bye