This is a segue to a session that I did in Munich, Drupal Communic back in August. I did some updates based on two cases that I had the chance to work after that. So that's when I put together, I wanted to really share my experience around working with such organizations and selling Drupal to them and delivering Drupal to large organizations. But as I went through those two new cases last year, last six months, and also talking to people today, yesterday, throughout the conference, I'm changing the tone a little bit of this presentation to a sense where I think we're comfortable around Drupal in large surprise. Looks like it's, to some case, enterprises are coming and asking for Drupal, and I've seen a few and talking to some people. I noticed that is happening here too. But I think that's the most important time now that we don't let our guards lower. So we should be prepared for the competition that is gonna come harder, the proprietary CMSs, and continue to sell Drupal to large enterprise the way we've been doing in the past five years, right? So I think that's the tipy moment where we should not lower our guards around that. So hopefully we can get the momentum going and continue to increase Drupal into large enterprise. So my mark introduced myself just a little bit more. So chief architect with CINT, been working with Drupal for the past almost five years now, especially in cases involving digital marketing, which I'm gonna be elaborating a little bit more. What's that about? So that means I haven't worked so much with the government ever, but for large organizations, commercial organizations, and focusing on the final business, the digital marketing websites. So I lead a team of pre-sales engineers and some contact details later. What I wanted to do basically is to share some details about the cases and scenarios that I have worked in terms of pre-sale for large enterprises, and then encourage you to, especially the ones that are really shops or agencies that are really eager or already doing selling to large enterprise, to build a strong sales team around Drupal, right? So I will talk about being transparent when doing that so Drupal strength and weakness so your whole sales team needs to be aware of that. It's important to know what the competition is doing. So like I said in the beginning, there's a momentum for us. Drupal is really getting hard or getting bigger in large enterprises. So you would expect competitors would go after us. So I wanted to share things that I've seen happening in terms of what the competition is doing against Drupal. And some things that are more pre-sales one-on-one and how we can do the basics in pre-sale and use the community for that. A quick check, who is actually selling Drupal or working as a shop organization for Drupal? Okay, and is there anyone like buying Drupal or? Okay. And who is actually selling to large enterprise or had some experience? Okay, that'd be great to also to hear you guys throughout the presentation in the end. I'll be here to hear your experience as well throughout the presentation. So I don't think I have the audio, but I think my point is basically this. I don't know, this is a BBC video and I just wanted to run through. So it's basically a fox and you can find it on YouTube. Just give it a second without it's much better. And it gets the mouse. So what's the analogy here, right? Like I said, we're seeing Drupal Enterprise coming to us and talking about Drupal, but I still think we should spend energy and investment on keeping the sales force, our sales team prepared for what could be something like the proprietary companies trying to make us be back and be the mouse and then they will become the fox, which so we don't wanna be at that level, right? We wanna be the fox instead of the mouse. So that's my provocation here today. So hopefully we can get out of this session with this mindset. A little bit of context, so making it easier for you guys what I've been doing in my company. So CINT, like Mark said, a Brazilian company, but we have a global delivery, global delivery centers in Brazil, Argentina and China. We have offices in US, Japan, Europe and with my move to Australia, that's where we're gonna be starting an Australia office as well. We are about 1600 people. We don't only do Drupal, but we have about three-fifths talents in Drupal. So that's almost a third, a little bit less of Drupal develops, so that means a lot. We've been doing Drupal, big part of our revenue is coming from Drupal. We've built about 450 websites to a couple organizations we're gonna be speaking about and support those sites too. So those cases, unfortunately, I cannot share the names of the companies. I'm sure you guys understand, but you might get it throughout the presentation or, I don't know, but we've been working with two global Fortune 500 pharmaceutical enterprise. One, a Brazilian, but it's more Latin American, cosmetics organization just chose Drupal with our help last year. There was another one that I participated last year in the US, which is also a global organization in terms of nutritional products, and also a Japan branch of a global technology research media company, so kind of analysts that are using Drupal to analyst company. So my experience, my company experience comes from those cases. And basically, what do they have in common or do they still have some things in common when they felt like they should switch gears and move what they had, even if it was a CMS or just custom code.net or just Java? I guess to some extent they do share some commonalities. Regulated markets, especially the pharmaceutical ones, highly in that case, almost all of them, they had a presence pulverized across different technologies or platforms across the globe, so it was really hard to maintain that technology form. Also localization was a key part of the requirement for those organizations. Some of them, when I got there, they had the proprietary model in mind only, so all the open source was really something that would scare to begin with, so several questions would come around that. From the business side, though, there was the complaint about slow time to market. So using either custom code or using proprietary CMS, either way, they would take a lot of time to implement new features or to customize what the business or the marketing teams they needed. So they always complained about that. And of course, a push for cost reduction. Well, that's part of it, but one of the organizations, they really said, well, if it wasn't for Drupal, we wouldn't be able to launch this website in a couple of months by just leveraging the modules. So that's the key part. They would just go to proprietary and ask, well, can we build this or can we get a package? Either they have to pay for that package in the proprietary one or build their own, and it's, in that case, was Java. And it could have difference around which vendor they used. It would take more time to build that custom package. But in a way, they felt the difference with Drupal, and they felt it was easier to go to the market with new features. For example, one particular case was around the integration with Google Plus. So you could just get the module that was already there by the time it was launched and integration with Google Plus. So a couple weeks after Google Plus was launched, I think a beta phase, someone built a module for Google Plus. In just a couple weeks, you can start using that. So in the proprietary one, maybe you'd still have to ask them to build the package for the library for that. So with all those things combined, they all came to a point where they had to make a decision as an IT group, which the competitors would go straight ahead and pass them on their markets. So they had some challenge of whether we stay behind or we do things and change. And try to get ahead again. And they all ended up using Drupal for that. Another poll, so Dries talked a little bit. I think I have some backup on Dries this week. But is there anyone that thinks that Drupal is, or the enterprise is not important for Drupal? Okay. So I guess that provoked, or my question comes from some people that I talked to, it's either they want to stay with the blogging world or with the mass market and not worry so much about the enterprise, not spend building modules or concern about security. And all the things that enterprise considered important and keep things around simple or small, medium SMBs. I think it's very important. I myself, my company, we've learned a lot work with enterprise and Drupal and be able to respond to their challenge when it comes to all the requirements that they have and improving Drupal platform as well. So I think it's important for us to keep going. Like Dries said in the keynote, like I said, he helped me with my presentation. So eventually get to the Apple, to Amazon. So we should really be aiming high to get those guys. And I think we should always spend or make investments toward that. So it's been a long time now that Drupal is part of the global enterprise level. It's no big news. But like I said in the beginning, I think we should be prepared for that as a sales team. The two cases that I've been part last year, they came really strong against Drupal with arguments I'm gonna be elaborating a little bit more. So they really have a very well-prepared sales team. They have demos very well-prepared for those organizations. They have certified sales team. They have all this ammunition, ammunition of artifacts or assets that can just come and try to convince organizations to use. And we, well, we're a big community, almost a million developers according to the EO. But still when it comes to sales and even marketing, we kind of try to do the job ourselves on our own. There's no centralized, I'll do a few things, but there are no centralized efforts in terms of marketing and selling Drupal. So I think that's something that we should be focusing on this year, next couple years. Because what we've been working so far might not work in the past. Remember, Drew is talking about web experience management, right? So that's a new thing in the market, but also being funded by those proprietary enterprises, or proprietary CMSs to try to bring everything into one product and that would go against, or would go to some extent against what Drupal is, right? You would have to combine products. So Adobe, Site Core, Oracle, they're all putting together, acquiring companies and putting together several products and trying to convince organizations with this new approach, web experience management, right? So it's not working the way we used to sell Drupal to those organizations not working, it's not that easy anymore. And it could be unfair sometimes, like I said. So I think we should try and spend our energy on that area too, not only development, not only support, but really think about marketing and sales. And that's where I wanted to spend a few time, a few, spend some time on that, which is basically the strengths. Look at the competitors are doing and training your sales team. The first thing is about Drupal's strength and weakness at the enterprise level. So I think it's key for us, especially if you have not worked with enterprise before, understand what are the difference between SMBs and enterprise, what are the type of requirements that you might be faced with when it comes to participating in a bid for an enterprise. There's some debate about what could be a large enterprise to the purpose of this session, I'm gonna be defining some requirements that to some extent again might match some of the cases that you guys have. At least we know what is not. So it's definitely not the small shops that are just looking for a simple side. So at least we know what is not, but sometimes there's some confusion about what's a large enterprise, right? We have some public case that I wanted to share just to illustrate and plus the ones that I cannot share, but basically what is involved, so proprietary software model mindset, right? So that's one key thing that we as a Salesforce team or a Drupal sales team got to be prepared, we might be facing that. There are several system integration points, so you're not just talking about a simple website that is gonna be out there and not communicating with different systems, right? There's much more involved. You've gotta be prepared to answer questions about integration with CIMs and different components. We might be talking about Fortune 500 companies that are global, the presence is global, they are in the revenues of, I don't know, more than four or five billion dollars a year. So that's the type of organization I'll be talking about today. They don't have just one major website. I'll talk about dozens or even hundreds of websites. The two pharma companies, they are really on the hundreds of websites around. I was in the other presentation about Migrating Large-Scale Drupal. So several groups involved, so they mentioned about that too. So we're not dealing with just one single product owner, although sometimes you get that lucky, but still there's too many groups involved to make that happen. So how you, as an organization, that is proposing Drupal for that enterprise, how can you be prepared to deal with different layers, different roles within that organization? Global Reach, said, regulated industry and the cost reduction, as said at the beginning. So I think the first thing that we need to do is to be prepared for those challenges. So we gotta be able to answer things about performance in Drupal, right? Multiple sites management. So again, the proprietary SMS, they have all those answers. So how we as a Drupal-safety can answer that right off the bat or show them, right? What are the options that we have in Drupal? What is the best threats around multiple site or multi-site management? The best tools for localization or internalization as well, how we can show them that Drupal really sets five of those requirements for a global organization. Then when it comes to implementation of Drupal, I think there was a talk about Drupal and using Agile. So how does that affect my delivery process, my delivery method as well? Using Agile and using Drupal, does that change anything? What I'm used to? Are you able to follow my SDOC process as well? Single-signal, so there are a lot of requirements about single-signal. Usually those organizations will try to, for example, the pharma ones, they'll have portals for healthcare practitioners, healthcare providers. So they just want one central point, but different websites, right? Single-signal is key. And Drupal has some capabilities on that, but it's still, there are partnerships that we can do and use different products. Integration, support. I'm gonna be talking more in detail. So one of the first things is I have one person that I call in this proprietary CMS when I need help, but not about Drupal, it's the Wild West, it's just the community, who is responsible for that? So we gotta be prepared to answer those questions. Hosting, security and analytics. So how we can show Drupal that can Drupal connected with other components can actually satisfy those requirements. So I think the next thing is to master what Drupal has to offer, right? I just, I'm sure you guys have more here. I brought a couple of things that I think have been differentiated or have stand out to those sales engagements that I had last year to the enterprise world. And it's really key, have been really key to make Drupal success. So I think the first one is flexibility. When I was able to demonstrate Drupal to them about the flexibility they would have to a point where Drupal in one firm organization is actually different from their competitor which those two companies actually compete against each other, of course. So it's something that really stands out. I'm sure the proprietary ones you can actually customize as well, but I really believe the level that you can go with that, you can really make the platform mingle in the enterprise world and really become their platform without, of course, hacking the core. But I think flexibility is one of the key arguments to demonstrate to those organizations during the sales pitch. The second one which ties back to a question I guess, the innovation rate. So you are not relying on just that vendor, the proprietary CMS vendor, you are relying on a lot of people using that across the globe. So you're getting diversity, you're getting innovation quite faster when compared to this monolithic, big global proprietary CMS organization. So I think it's special to the marketing teams. IT is very concerned about this, but when it comes to the marketing teams, they really like this to see they're getting content, they're getting features built by different organizations across the globe. Not only Oracle, not only SiteCore, not only that organization without too much diversity, they're getting as a Drupal community, they're getting experience across the globe, different scenarios, and that's really key as well. So those are the two things that I think really help Drupal standing out for the sales pitch. But I think we've got to be honest and transparent. I think it's one of the, I was just talking this morning, one of the key things about us as a Drupal community, we're very transparent on what we do and how we do things. So you wouldn't hear, I guess, proprietary CMS talking about their weaknesses or their flawless. So, but we gotta be able to talk about during the sales pitch as well. And I have a few here that I've been challenged last year, and I think we just don't show it as a flawless or an issue, but you just show how things are getting fixed or how things are getting better, right? So one of the things, I'm saying over and over, Dries mentioned that, other sessions mentioned that, is about the altering. Those organizations, when I started with one of them five years ago, the marketing team, they wouldn't want to actually do the content chains. They would rely to us as a vendor or to a different department that was more technical. That has changed quite a lot throughout the years. But the organization has chosen Drupal five years ago and has done nothing to improve this experience. So we had a bit of a challenge, trying to go after the implementation of better interface for the content editors, right? Still not that perfect, still there's some investment that needs to be done. But I think the key part here for new sales is really to look at this park project, is to look at what is being done in terms of improving the content altering experience. When you see all the products, they have in line editing for a long time now. And finally we're getting that in Drupal. So that was one of the key things that I've seen happening that would go against Drupal. So I think we should be prepared to show that this is gonna be, or it's already being tackled. The second thing which is kind of related to the content staging, so the ability, mostly ability to preview is not one of the strongest part in Drupal. Again, looking at other proprietary softwares. And again, if you guys have more experience, just shout out. But you would have the preview, so you would do the content changing staging. You could preview the whole thing in context. In Drupal, this last time I checked, we cannot do that so perfectly yet. So we still have no way to see the whole page within the website unless you do the whole staging and production, right? But how can I do the production chains and actually see things in production in the context of the website? If I have a pop-up window or a layover, how can I actually see that? It's not that simple right now. So the content stage initiative is trying to tackle some of that and improve. And I think this one is being financed by the large-scale Drupal, which I'm gonna be talking very soon. Content management, configuration management initiative as well, so the whole deployment. Again, when I went over there and there was someone that heard about Drupal, they would come with those points. The preview, altering, and the ability for smoother deployments, right? Again, those, the other platforms, they would have a simple way, just one straightforward way of pushing content, configuration from different environments to production. We still struggle a little bit, but there's a lot of things happening, starting with the configuration management. So that makes things much easier for that. So be aware of that and bring up during the sales speech and of course show them. The next one is really learn what the competitors are doing. I guess I could feel that, I couldn't actually talk to the competitor and see their actions around this, but when I was listening to the customer doing the sales speech and he was choosing between this or Drupal, I would get the sense of those things, especially around foods, fear, uncertainty, and doubt, that is still, you might think that it should be passed or way behind us, still gonna face some of them. There's still some guys that were part of the whole Microsoft thing 10, 15 years ago and I faced down in Brazil last year and one of the first questions was around security with open source, right? So the point that I showed him is to talk to security and specialized organizations. It's basically just a regular concern. So you gotta do your homework, you gotta have, you still gotta have your team that's gonna be doing the tasks and validation of websites, regardless of if it's Drupal, if it's a proprietary CMS, we're still changing code, it's still a web application in the end of the day, so you still gotta do your homework, right? So this is really a myth that we gotta be prepared to mitigate. Again, US, I'm not seeing that so much, I don't know, Europe, I haven't heard, but in Brazil, I don't know here, there's still guys that would think that a well open source security Drupal and there's also the whole security committee, right? We gotta be able to explain how this work and how you as a vendor or as an agency can actually apply the patches and actually part of your process of the governance of the platform, right? So be prepared that it might come as one of the myths. Support, so same organization, the Latin America Cosmetics, they said, well, you know what, I can just call this guy in this organization and he's gonna fix whatever is failing within the whole platform. If it's the website, if it's the CRM, if it's the other component underneath it, he's gonna fix because it's just one, it's everything with him, so I'm very comfortable with that. Well, he got a point to some extent, I think. He just have to call one person compared to this scenario where, well, there's something wrong with the website and this website integrates with this ESB or another two. So I gotta bring both vendors or three vendors on a call and try to fix that. So things might get a little bit hairy or messy, but I like to show what I usually do, I show an innovation fostering scenario. So that's more one focal point, right? Or just one support. He would handle the whole thing you read, but when I'm picking Drupal, I try to bring in a way that you're gonna be able to bring more innovation to the organization, more diverse again. Just sticking with one organization, you are kind of locked to whatever the rate of innovation is, whatever they're gonna be bringing to you, you're not gonna be fostering discussions or things that can be improved in your organization. So I show something like this, right? So yeah, the organization, yeah, they can still do all the other components. We don't wanna conquer the world, don't wanna do everything, although a few things, yeah, we wanna do. But yeah, we can live with that and you know what? By the time we get on a call to improve our platform, we're gonna be getting feedback from different perspectives. We're gonna be getting feedback from us as a Drupal and we have been working with different organizations. We have the community. And yeah, we're gonna be also getting feedback from your current vendor, whatever best practices he's suggesting and then you get the best out of it, out of the two vendors. So for support, that's what I tend to move the discussion around, has been very beneficial to them. And rest assured, I guess the thing that also come is around there's no support, it's just open source. Who's supporting this? Who's behind this code, right? So then you have to go and tell about the open source, how it works, how the Drupal community works, but rest assured, you're not gonna be locked in. So the whole vendor lock in, that's one of the things that I use, you're not gonna be locked in with CINT. You can actually go to another vendor, there's plenty of vendors that can actually help you with that. So, and we're just growing and growing. So this is also key to bring to them. Again, around transparency, so that's very important. Performance, I guess this has to do with some Drupal case that haven't been so successful, right? So that gets out there, people will know about it. And I like to think the performance well under control in terms of Drupal, as long as you, of course, you use the right add-on. So there's plenty of components that you can use, and it should bring that even in the sales pitch. Especially, of course, if you face that question, well, I heard the Drupal is low, Drupal is just bringing my side down, so I don't wanna use it. One of the key things that I also say is that maybe what you heard was because Drupal is not the right tool for a right job. We try, you try to build Facebook, maybe, with Drupal. Yes, can be done, but you might think about what you wanna achieve in the end of the day, right? Yes, you can build Facebook with those components as well, but then the impression was out there already, right? So you gotta show that it's not like that. The other thing that I heard was, well, you know what, with proprietary vendors, I can just call them, and because I'm paying, I can try and influence what's gonna come in the next build, right, depends, of course, the organization, how much power they have with that, how much they're paying for life fees, et cetera, but somehow they have some feeling that they can influence more on the proprietary world. And here, how would they do that? To influence Drupal 7, Drupal 8, how they can do that, right? I guess we have to use the community, we have to go back and talk about how the organization should be part of the commission, try and foster that should have not only the vendors, but their IT team also being part of the community so they can see what's going on and really feel how they can actually be part of this ecosystem. So that's one important thing. And I'm happy to see that this one, I just used one time, there's just one organization that is part of it, but the large-scale Drupal, I think everyone, or most of you guys know what it is, but something that I think is founded by Acre and this organization, this former company is actually part of it and is contributing with basically money to make investments but across different groups, so that's how it works. And then they can focus on this particular, in particular features that they need that are very common to them. So I think the first thing that came out of it was related to content staging. So they built quite a few modules and it's gonna come back to the community, right? So they have a roadmap, they get together every month. So like the IT directors of the organization that are part of the group. So for large enterprises, I think this is key for a very small amount of money compared to I think for the last fees, you can actually join a special group of corporations that might have the similar pinpoints that you have, leveraging Drupal and you can actually do it better by sharing the resource and financing. So I brought this and a couple months after they chose Drupal, they joined the group and I'm still investing on that. So this is a very good point. Drupal talent, we all keep hearing about this. My personal feel in working with my developers in Brazil is that it's getting better. So yes, it's true, still have a shortage but there are a bunch of things happening around that and I think the global training days, I think last year was the first year that we did, as the association did. So I think that's gonna be key if we continue to participate. I don't know if you guys had a chance to join that. I really recommend you try to put together even if it's just the what is Drupal course, it's just a couple of hours in the morning but try to help with that, it's gonna be very important and again, they're gonna be bringing this into the sales pitch. University, so there's some working happening and trying to put Drupal as part of curriculum universities. So that's also something that can be bought. Training companies, I see every now and then more training companies spinning up and I think I just added about Dries, he mentioned about the symphony. So I think Drupal way things are gonna be tend to be a little bit easier to bring new developers and get away from the Drupalisms that we have in the other versions of Drupal. So the other thing is the web experience management. So I told you that I do see as a trend in the market but I also sometimes get the feeling that it has somehow been fabricated by those proprietary ones but still it does make a lot of sense to the topics that are being brought to this. Marketers are really needing this. So I think we gotta be prepared to answer the questions. How Drupal can support my web experience management, right? Especially if you luckily get access to the marketers which I don't usually get to, it's just the IT or the group between IT and marketing but this talk will definitely come and it involves basically being worried about how we're building the brand, right? So as an IT organization, as an IT vendor, us we gotta be prepared to really be worried about what does that mean to build this website in Drupal? How can I actually help you, the brand to achieve your goals, right? So Dries mentioned the keynote about commerce content in community. There are some pillars that you can deep dive on the web experience management but it all basically goes back to conversation engagement, be able to create a community and then listen to that community so we can go back to our brand. So what are the tools that along with Drupal we can help marketers listen to their consumers and then adapt around that. So how the brand can improve their conversation engagement? Demand generation, how I can actually email newsletters for example, so how I can be more proactive and be more personalized around generating more demand. How does Drupal can help with that? Does we need to bring another tool for that maybe, right? But we gotta be able to show that Drupal can actually connect to the tool to email newsletters or even to ads, right, for advertisement. So what are the tools that can help Drupal be better at demand generation? Contemplation, so analytics, SEO, what are the tools if not just Drupal that can help again the brands achieve the contemplation? And multi-channel management, I get over and over, everyone is talking about this, not just mobile, it's not just desktop site, we're talking about mobile, mobile apps and pushing content to the social media as well. So that's very high level but that's the web experience management, right? So that's, if you look at the proprietary SMS website, you're gonna see a product that's basically something around those lines.  And what about us as Drupal, how we can cover that, right? And lastly, as part of the three points, is let's focus on our pre-sales on one, let's try to empower our sales team and leverage the community to make it better. So one of the things I think I saw in the business day and we use quite a lot is requirements score matrix. So there's no standard one although several requirements might be the same but it's really something that it can help the organization and build together with them. What are the most important requirements for you when you're choosing a CMS? And it's not only for you as an IT, you gotta bring the marketer, the final consumer of the solution we're putting out there and then put some value out of it. So it's not just listing out the requirements but trying to put what is the value that how much does this represent to you? Because then if it's not so much, Drupal can really stand out or the other solution will stand out. But anyways, you're being transparent and honest about that. So I really recommend having a template. I can even share this one later with you guys. But if they don't have one, work with them in the very beginning of this assessment and put it together something that is very customizable to them. And well, there's a risk that of course they might choose the other CMS. But you know what, it is what it is, right? But at least we're being transparent and honest and be able to maximize what Drupal can actually do for them. It's very straightforward. I've been through two scenarios like this. One spreadsheet was prepared by AnalystsFirm. So they helped the organization put together a spreadsheet. So you can tell some particularities around that and you can tell, for example, when the person was used to work with another CMS, in that case, was SharePoint. So the spreadsheet was created towards requirements that only SharePoint could satisfy to some extent. So I was able to just, oh, let's talk about this. You know what, this is SharePoint. If we look at the other CMS, they're not gonna be supporting this. So just be prepared for that. I guess what I also realized when they come to ask for help on choosing a platform is that it's not only the technical platform. There's also something happening between the marketing and the IT. They're not talking as they should. The communication is not as smooth as possible. They have different goals. Some of you can see here, and IT has its own goals as well. Might not be supporting only the marketers by supporting different organizations within the enterprise. So I guess what's very important for us when we're pitching that is also to understand what is this business gap, right? How we can fit in in the middle here and complement those two organizations, right? So I guess it's not only the platform, but being able to understand what is the traction that is going on, the friction that is going on between the two groups. That's really has been helpful for us to go one step ahead, not the technology, but being able to understand what is happening in the organization. Again, all the challenges around different groups, they're big. You don't get that answer just in the first week. So you gotta be prepared to spend some time with your sales team, finding out, interviewing, getting to know, connecting to different people in the organization, and eventually you connect the dots. Then you set up the session to have everyone, let's talk about Drupal and how Drupal can help both of your organizations within the enterprise. I think that's very key as well. And this one was just December, yeah. I was surprised to hear, so of course, organizations, they hire those companies to advise them, especially in such a critical moment, right? So we should not be naive. They're not just listening to us, Drupal, and to the proprietary ones. They're also looking for someone that might be in the middle, right? So I had a chance to go through the scenario where they hired the company, the analyst company, to help them make a decision. And there was the organization, the analyst firm, tend not to benefit Drupal. So they would bring things around TCO, even for Drupal. And I really recommend we also try, if you guys have capability to try and work with those analysts. There are ways you can work with that, can influence that as well. But most importantly, being transparent. So if you have access to analysts and you can show off your case in Drupal, please do it. So they have the perception that Drupal is getting some friction on some issues in some areas on their abacus management.  So if we can try to work on that area too, if you have the capacity to do so, I really recommend. So right now we're trying to have schedule meetings with specific analysts about CMS throughout the year. So we can show them the case that we've been doing in Drupal and how our customers are benefiting from that. It's just being honest and transparent, right? But sometimes it's really hard to find, just Google and try to find success case in Drupal that really can touch on the mind of those guys. So I really recommend if you have capabilities, try to influence such organizations as well. Lastly, I guess it's a try to build the best strategy for a first-year use team, right? So it's a process that's not gonna take a couple weeks or months. The last one took me 12 months from the time I was called for the first presentation until I get an SOW signed. So be prepared to spend some time and the better we're prepared, I mean, the more we're prepared, the better, right? So one of the things about the key for us is by the time we're there, they wanted to see a Drupal running and I Google around, I search around, I didn't find a demo that could really satisfy what they wanted to see. Although you can show what's out there, but it's really, my recommendation is to, somewhere right there, try to customize. So that was really success. We had the, of course, you have to map your resource, but we had the chance to actually get three developers for one week, get a few use cases of a website that's live out there for the organization, and we build those features in Drupal and did a demo. So we get all the assets from the site, we build the website and show them just one week and a half. That was key for them to all. And then I also showed the CMS, although we couldn't work out the interface the way we wanted, but we could show while we can change content, just you here and then you have access, you have permission, you have logs, you have track of what's going on. So I really recommend when going after enterprises, be prepared to save some time, some resource to actually build a more customized demo. Generic ones, I'm not gonna be touching upon what the market has in mind. He wants to see his problem being solved by that, right? So that was very key. Lastly, I keep saying lastly, I guess, but also team up, even as although I said 300 talents, you know what, there are skills that we don't have. Even the web experience management, there are components that we just don't know how to answer some questions. So there's a couple scenarios last year. So we brought one of our partners to compliment our offer and we work on the pitch process together. So this is really key. I guess it goes along with the whole community and I really recommend. So if you're going after those giants and you have the opportunity to bring someone else with you, I'm sure there's space for everyone within that organization. So I really recommend doing a partnership and working together on presales for those organizations. And I might be getting to the last little part finally. No way to give up. One of the things, and I said before, is around trying to force the customer to use the tool. Again, we have our ego very big and we want Drupal to really can do anything, everything, but I'm a stronger believer on the right tool for the right job, right? So try to build the LMS or try to build something on top of Drupal.  So many business rules. We're gonna have to customize so many Drupal modules to do that. You better off buy that solution and then let's use Drupal for something else, right? So that's my recommendation as well. And I don't think that, I think that doesn't help Drupal at all. So those are the cases that we hear. Drupal was not so successful. And then, so I really recommend, let's be transparent. If it's failing on there, Drupal's really not getting a no score at all. Just be honest, and you're gonna get our customer eventually. So just be transparent. I think I'm, yeah, I think I'm good. Guys, that's pretty much it. Kind of a little bit boring, but for a Friday afternoon, but I wanted to share those, that experience. And my recommendations, try to really empower your sales team, invest on that. Again, things that I heard this week, I think we're in a comfort zone. Customers are coming and asking for Drupal, but it might not last that long. And I'm sure the appropriate ones, they will come more strong. So I'd rather be prepared for that. And we have a huge sales team. We're able to do marvelous things as long as we get prepared for it, right? And my last point is to go back to this, right? What do we rather be? So right now I think we're the Fox, but I wanna continue to be the Fox. So hopefully we will continue investing in our sales team. We continue to be in growing the way we are right now. That's pretty much it. I don't know, any questions? Yep. So to that point, first we try to implement a governance module. So should I repeat the question, right? So what are the processes or how we can assure the reliability of the modules being chosen by the corporation, right? So when we get in, first thing is let's put a governance process in place for the modules. We don't want developers just going to choose whatever they want, right? So for organizations, although the whole time to market, it might be slowing down things, I think it's very important, especially for talking global scale, different vendors working with the code. So we gotta have a very strong process in place. So for the two pharma ones, they do have a very strong, so every time a developer suggests a new module, has to go to some sort of approval to use that. So try to get that ahead during the grooming of the sprint. So based on the requirements, try to identify which module will best suit that particular requirement. And submit for approval. Usually takes a couple of days, and then they allow it. And of course, try to use maybe just beta or ready for production released versions. Although also sometimes they would allow it, and then we would implement or fix the bugs and eventually help move to the next level. But I guess the very short answer is have a strong governance process. No, no, no, it was, I don't recall any case, yeah. I mean, first developers are actually assessing that before submitting, and then there's their internal committee that's actually reviewing. So for that particular requirements, basically supporting what they want. And then there's security involved as well, that's part of the governance. I mean like a checklist of, I don't have it handy right now, but those customers, that's what they call the, once they establish the governance process, they create what they call the platform, their own platform. So the platform is basically a set of Drupal modules that should be tried, should be reused across all the sites to be implemented. So to get a new module into that platform has to go to that process, and then it would be blessed and be able to use by them, across the globe. In the beginning, when I started working with Drupal, yes. You know what, and I don't see that happening much right now. I feel like the IT groups, the large enterprise, slowly are getting up to speed with innovation, with looking what SMBs are doing and trying to bring that to the enterprise. So the cool stuff that are happening out there, they wanted to bring, is not as fast as an SMB, but I feel like they're trying to change the mindset and instead of trying to do things the same way again, trying to leverage what has been done in startups and in small companies, and we're seeing a lot of startups become enterprise just in a couple of years, right? So they're getting that experience and trying to bring into their process of creating new websites or new requirements. So it's getting better, and the past five years changed a lot, but it's not that fast. They basically came with, with the whole analytics was very key. So for example, I think Adobe Omniture, so they just come with the pitch where once everything fairly integrated, it's just as easy to create a new website. Omniture just worked fine over there, so that was one of the key things that I heard. But then I would go with, you know what, you can either use Omniture, there's a module for that in Drupal or you can use Google Analytics or you can use a Core Matrix, for example. So that's that battle I've been through. That was one of the things. Apart from that, no. Yeah, yeah, or at least you need more configuration to do it, right? So you can do a few things with views and roles in terms of personalization. There's more you can code on top of it, but I think they come with everything ready and they show it and whereas us, we just have to build and show them. So it takes us more time to actually show what they want in terms of experience management. I guess that's one of the key things. I'm not at that level, but that's a good idea. Ideally, especially when it comes to web experience management, I mean we're seeing companies, so we're not a product company, so but you're seeing like, Accra is doing something very similar to that, building an ecosystem around one product and just bringing components. But yeah, ideally, that will make things just at the same level as the proprietary ones are doing. Yeah, I don't do that. What I do is basically, demos try to bring the requirements, but ideally that's where we want to be. Or to be able to know in those components, like there's a, I think there's a bunch of companies here this week that offer like, service of translation, for example, and there's a module to connect with Drupal. So we know in that, we don't actually have to build something, but actually show that those things can work together and then bundle in and sell. Both are doing both. So we have to be proactive. So as we start building those case, definitely that help us as well to position ourselves as supporting a service to large organizations. But especially as me a Brazilian company, we're not so famous in US or Europe, so we have to do some proactive work. But it has been scenarios where they would just come and ask for Drupal service because they saw it. So all the things that we've been doing out there in the community and unfortunately we cannot share those cases, but somehow they get to know. There is, of course, word of mouth. So as we continue building new cases, that eventually will help us. Yes, the office is gonna be my place in the beginning, of course, as usual, but eventually we're gonna be sitting, yeah. That's been started over there, yeah.  That was fantastic. Look, could you please join me in thanking Philippe Ribbim? Yep, so feedback and slides, slides will be available. I think your slide is available already on the site and everything so you can get that there. The audio transcript together with the PowerPoint will be available in a video on the page, just like every page. And please, we'd appreciate your feedback on the session. It would be wonderful as per usual and on all the other sessions as well. It goes back into a feedback loop. So the DA can improve the event even more in the future.


And without taking much time, I would request Mr. Murti to unmute himself and take things forward, and sir, we are thank you that you have accepted our request. So kindly unmute yourself. Murti sir, unmute yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Right, sir. Over to you. Yeah, Mr. Vikas, before I start, my daughter is waiting. She's also an advocate to be allowed inside. Could you allow her? Yes, Rupashree. Sir, 100 participants. It's all over. Over 100. All right. Let us go through YouTube. So good evening to all the listeners. Last year, I had an occasion during the COVID time, organized through Mr. Vikas. And he has taken it right through to Punjab and Chandigarh also. And Hariyana and other areas he has covered many places. And this year again, we thought we should have a session on the industrial relations for development of industrial law. Now this is going to be slightly different from what I spoke on the last occasion.  Those who have attended will find some difference. See, first of all, let us look into the development of industrial law. Now the industrial relations court 2020 is supposed to reflect the developments in industrial law. That industrial law is more a judgment law. The entire gamut of industrial law development has taken place only through the law laid down by the judges. Allowing judges to make laws is a very dangerous trend in democracy. It ruins the system according to me because each judge will have his own philosophy, unmindful of what is required to be done on the ground. I'll give you a few examples. Instead of developing industrial law into a tool for progress of the country, how the Supreme Court in the high courts have ensured that there is not going to be much of a progress in industrial front, thanks to their generosity in delivering judgments. I'll give only a few examples. Take the definition of industry. It is shocking. It is quite shocking that the Supreme Court should say hospital is an industry, educational institution is an industry, Punjab, Punjab role is an industry. All because of a Marxist-minded judgment judge of the Supreme Court, the great Krishna Ayur, who wanted to impose his philosophy on the country, the absolute communist philosophy. With a result, strikes and lockouts were seen in the hospitals, educational institutions. Even today you find that. Yes, some law is required to govern them, but you cannot equate industrial law, bringing industrial law to manage educational institutions, to manage hospitals. And here the parliament utterly failed after making amendments to the definition of industry. 18th August, 1984, after the presidential signature, it has to only publish two lines to give effect to it. But that's not happening. Now with a new court, the same thing what was there earlier has been incorporated. Look at the thinking of the part of the government and those who drafted this entire industrial relations court. So industry definition actually brought a lot of inconvenience. It did not help the growth of development of industrial law at all. Nobody, much less the parliamentarians of 1947 expected that one day the honorable Supreme Court will call the hospital as an industry, educational institutions as an industry. I would say on the whole there is development of industrial law, but development of industrial law totally lopsided, meant only to each judge, why with other to show how socially sees how much he cares for the labor. And this has brought industry into a very dire state. Look at the definition of retrenchment for that matter. Retrenchment in English meant excess staff being offloaded. The interpretation given by Justice Krishna Yalvaj, if it was for 240 days in 12 months and it's eliminated because there is no word that is also retrenchment. Again, a great distorted version of what was originally sought for, what was originally should be done. Lay off for the matter. Supreme Court says unless you reserve a right to lay off in the appointment letter or in the standing orders, you have no right to lay off. Who on earth wanted all this to be done? Lay off has got a certain meaning. So if an industry lays off, when you only write what is the compensation payable, you become multi-technical when it comes to helping the labor and totally something which is unexpected from a hold of that level. Then, for example, to proceed further in the matter, you take, for example, the parliament and its application of responsibility. Notice of change. If you are giving a cup of coffee at four o'clock and you want to make it half cup of coffee, that is called change of service condition. How can the industry run on if this is the type of restrictions that are placed? Most of it, unfortunately, coming from the judiciary. Take, for example, placing the restrictions on right to lay off retrenchment and closure. Many of my clients ask me what sort of law you have in this country. I have a right to start, but I have no right to close down. Which country has that law? This is a great time for the parliament to totally shelf chapter 5B. Unperceivedly, they have totally failed. Parliament has failed the industry. Judges have ruined the industrial law to, if you ask me, to use very strong words. So how on earth can you do all this thing? For example, you have a provision for section 17 capital being in the industrial district. I thought the parliament will intervene because supposing that a person who has virtually assaulted a manager may have resulted in grievance injuries. And some court says, all right, he was a bad man. Then now he's all right. You take him back. This is the attitude of the labor courts. Take him back. Now, if I don't want to take him back, I must pay him last long wages. Then what is the discretion of the high court? High court is a puppet court with article 226. If there's a good case where back wages must be given, or wages must be given, or some interim leave must be given. The court will do it while bringing legislation and forcing in all cases that 17B must be applied, wages must be paid, even in such cases. So these are all things which we thought that they will make changes when it comes to all these things, but nothing has been done. And development of industrial law, in what sense? Every activity, the industry, or whoever does whatever work is a workman. For example, technicians, I don't know parliament and what influence they brought this word technical in the definition of workman. A software engineer who's paid 5 lakhs of rupees a month is a workman in industrial law. Was that the intention? Did the parliament not know that this is hopeless? A hopeless interpretation by the courts? Can they not change it when they want? They change everything overnight by presidential ordinance. So again, we are suffering. Sir, could you come here to the mic because a lot of people are saying it's less audible. One second. Hear me. Yes, sir. Hello. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Are you able to hear me? Yes, sir. Then what it was earlier? Better, better. Okay. Now, now, now, now, now let's take to what they have done in various space. Some of the features like, for example, definition of layout, implementation, chapter 5B, draconian law, then sections which require permission from the government or from the court to do even part terminations. If you put in all these restrictions, how should the industry function? Look at judiciary, how it has impacted the production and productivity. Goal flow must be proved. How can I prove go slow in a mass action? So the workmen can indulge in go slow and say there's something wrong with the machine. Therefore, it goes slow.  Allow an employer to decide and run the plant. Now they have done. Now the situation is worse. Industrial relations court is a big apology to the industrial disputes act and to the existing labor laws. If they were incapable of drafting a good law, they should not have done it. According to me, industrial dispute cycle is one of the final piece of legislation. They have ruined it now. Some bureaucratic in Delhi making four acts, one act without understanding the implications has led to this serious setback. Now, take for example, I want to take you to the definitely the contract labor act where the section said a contractor is a workman who agrees to produce a given result and also a person who supplies labor. What is the meaning of it? Somebody gives me security of the entire plant to me to be taken care of and I go ahead and do it and I build on a lump sum basis. There is another agency which provides only labor. Now the Supreme Court says no, no, no, no, no, merely providing labor is not a contractor. They refuse to recognize the law. You will have control. You will supervise. Your officers will direct them as to what is to be done. Therefore, it's a sham contract. The silver lining is in the last four or five years. Some judges have thought that it's unwise to interpret that way and have come to a conclusion that what was said earlier was not correct. A person who in fact just is Roenton Nariman and just is Roenton. I'm underlined and said a person who runs a employment bureau like an employment exchange in the private sector and somebody said, I want 20 operators and he sends 20 operators. You say, no, no, no, he's not a contractor because he doesn't come and supervise the work. He doesn't come and control the workmen. That was not intended. Why are you putting your words into this section? For years and years, allowing the officers of the Labor Department to go totally correct because they have the discretion to give or not to give. If you read Justice Roenton Nariman's judgment, it shows there's absolutely no discretion in the officer. If an application is made, because the fees is paid, he's bound to grant your license unless the work is prohibited. And most of the state governments and the central government have forgotten the existence of section 10 in the Contract Labor Act. Two things happen out of this. One is the law itself says you can have merely labor working for you from a person who supplies mere labor, mere supply of labor. In fact, it just is asked if the idea is that man only supplies labor, who should tell them where they should work, what work they should do, how they should do. It is not. Naturally, the principal employer, if the principal employer says that you become known, no, no, this is not contract labor. And for this was one of the issue, now they're trying to correct themselves too late in the day because industrial relations could have taken a different turn altogether. Likewise, if you look into the various aspects of, for example, we had what is known as a public utility service. Now, in the new forward, they have done away with public utility service. So they have removed some of the good things. They may be public utility service was a good provision in the industry. Because it may be water supply. It may be road transport corporation. It may be corporation employees. Some notice was required to be given. Something had to be done. And he did his preferential treatment. Now, that is all to be taken away. Now, what do you do once it is taken away totally? Then, for example, if you go to the provisions pertaining to approval and permission, it's such a draconian provision that for every small thing, even for increment, you must run to the labor court and say, I want to punish him with one increment. We told him, give me approval or give me permission as the case may be. Was this the intention? Obviously not. Now, there was a lot of demand to make it make changes in this. What did they do? They did nothing of that sort. Then look at the development of industrial law, which is a subject which we are dealing with. For example, under the Red Union Act, if you see, there is no recognition of the Red Union, even after 1947 till date. There are a lot of agitation strikes, lockouts, damashas going on on the ground that employees refusing to recognize the Red Union. It is high time that they made a law that they should have made a law. Now, there have been demand by companies for the secret ballot. There have been demand by Congress by secret ballot and check off by the communist parties. Nothing has been done so much so that there are going to be serious fight amongst the Red Union, resulting in loss of production. The worst part of the development of industrial law has been the mischance is discipline. Indiscipline is the watchword today. Courts are so silent and so blind to what is happening in industry. Huge industrial establishments are closed for 50 days, 60 days, 70 days, 80 days. On flimsy grounds, look at what the government has done recently in Bangalore. Suspension of one or two office bearers lead to a strike by 4,000 employees and goes off on 91 day and loss of production. What is the primary street talking? That you manufacture for the world, that you do this. I invite people all over the world to come here without knowing what the labor loss of the country is. Many of our clients who had ideas of expansion have given up. And who is responsible for this indiscipline? The Supreme Court and the High Courts. They are responsible. If there is an absence of 30 days in a PS man of six months, the judge the other day asked me in the High Court, 30 days and not there is an absence of what is so big about it. 50 days absence of what is big about it, taking back and an employee writes 10 letters saying he is suffering from a certain disease which is incurable. And so on the ground of continued ill health, many services were terminated. The judge says it is your responsibility to keep such people with you. You should take them to the hospital. You must meet all the expenses. Then what are the social measures that they have taken? What are the ESI Act? Why are they collecting this money, Chanda? If everything has to be done by the employer, you give a role to the employer in the action against anyone. Somebody abuses the judge even at the highest level will say he was in a bad mood. He must have fought with his wife on that day. He must have abused. So what? These are not serious things. What is serious then? With the results, the trade union leaders today do on two fronts. One, if you are employing more than 100 workmen, you know what a trade union leader says. Tells his members, don't worry, this company cannot lay out. This company cannot retrain. This company cannot close. I take a case to the government where for three months I'm unable to give work and ask their permission to retrain. There's another foreign treatment, nothing, no permission will be given. And then they tell the officer, sir, if you don't give permission in another two months, it'll close down. He says, I don't care, you want to close, you can close and go, but I want to. All right, will you give me permission to close? Even that I will not give you. Do what you want. If you still close, I'll send you to the jail. So jails in India will not be filled by criminals, but by industrialists in course of time. Because for everything, you have prosecution. So what is the development of industrial law which I wanted to discuss with you? The virtually it's all pleasing one section of the society without understanding the ramifications, implications of such pleasing way of looking at things and passing judgments. There are hardly any Supreme Court judgment which says, no discipline is very important. We will not tolerate indiscipline. No indiscipline in the industry.  No, nobody wants to become unpopular. I'll give a simple example. Last year COVID, 52 days COVID holiday were declared. All the governments including the central government, everybody issues circular notification, a pandemic act, disaster management act, pay full wages, they'll impose two more tax on petrol, they'll collect money. If that is less, they'll impose another two rupees per litre, collect money. How many employees? So the employers went to the court. And you know what the court says? Very surprisingly, as these employers say, employees say like this, we are going to tell the government not to take coercive steps to implement this notification. So don't proceed against employers who do not abide by the notification. But both of you sit down and talk, arrive at a settlement. If you don't arrive at a settlement, let it go to reconciliation. Thereafter for adjudication, sheer abdication of the judicial responsibility. Now they say the banter is opposed to a further end. When it'll come up to five years. This is the kind of judiciary we'll have. Is it not a serious banter?  Arrest of one of the leaders we will take on a top priority. But what matters the entire country is not taken on top priority. So judiciary, what did it do? In fact, in one case they say, yes, we understand it's a very, it's a very abusive language. Workmen should not have used it, taken supervised in the 200 shop floor. But the workman is not from a refined set of societies, from the lowest set of society. So if he abuses you, fine. You can't go to the extent of dismissing. So I always tell executives and officers, get ready to get abused if you want to continue in employment.  Fortunately, one or two judgments came in the later years, won by Justice Santoshakade. Where he said if a workman abuses a supervisor on the shop floor, in the presence of other workmen, other than employees, it's a good case for dismissal. Till then they never thought it was a good case. I'll show you cases where chaos or deceit conductors don't give ticket and the Supreme Court said after I have 5 rupees, 6 rupees, 10 rupees, 12 rupees. So it goes on in amount of that has been denied to the corporation. Only later judgments gave some little soccer to those judgments which sent all those things. Therefore, I'm not saying all this by myself because I know my limitation. I know the wonderful judges can call me up for contempt of fault. But this is what Supreme Court has said in one of the judgments. Where they say, we in the Supreme Court have been lacks. They admit, they agree that they were the people who are very lenient to the working class resulting in large scale indiscipline. Therefore, if you look at the development of industrial law, it has not developed in the way it should have developed from 1947 till today. It's all a one sided development, pleasing the labor all through. Now, with this, let's see what the industrial relations court has in store for us. Now, what are the things that should have been corrected? There are various things that should have been corrected, various things. Now I'll tell you some of the lacuna that have been created. First thing is, wages have been redefined. These were necessary because they were employers. In a total salary of 10,000 rupees will be basic and 9,000 rupees divided into other components and pay contribution only on 1000. Therefore, the Parliament taught to amend this and to say at least 50% of the gross salary must be given under the head basic wages and DNS allowance. This is quite right and I think a positive step after going through a lot of difficulties for a long time. And the second change that noticeable change in the definition of, I mean, is in the definition of wages is one, then there will be one more important definition which was changed. Now I'll come to that. I think it is not, I'm not immediately able to get, yes, I want to. There are no introduced a definition called fixed term employment. Now this is a fraud again. This is a total fraud again. What is fixed term employment? Employing an employee for a term of one year, two years, six months, three months for a job is called fixed term employment. And the entire government goes on saying we have brought revolutionary changes in industry. Now you can employ people for a fixed period and send them little realizing and then identical provision existed exists still in the industry. Under the caption section two OOBB, under section two OOBB, your employer is right to employ an employee for a fixed term. Somebody wants to start an industry, save it 500 workmen. Can you give an appointment later to all of them saying I'm up for two years and it'll end up two years and ask them to go home and appoint a first set of 200 people? Is it possible? Then why all these industrial law service lover years we have been doing volumes and volumes written by Supreme Court judges. What's the occasion to go through these two OOBB? And very rightly said no, no, this is only, this can be used only when the nature of its work itself gets over in the limited period. If the work continues and the employment it is about 100 machines in a plant. It takes about two years to make complete time so you tell them for engineers whom you recruit, you have to carry out the time study in our establishment and we are giving you two years offer and they accept. At the end of two years it is not a treatment they get terminated by a fixed time. That is acceptable because you don't appoint any new people to do the same job. But can you do in case of a welder? Even if you appoint a welder for two years and he goes can you stop the welding work in your plant? You need to carry out the welding work in your plant. Therefore, such appointment is not fixed term employment. To my mind, this is a fraud. They are trying to fool all of us by saying I'm also shocked that some of the consultants and professionals have also sent articles taking this fixed term appointment on the face value saying government has done a wonderful job by defining fixed term employment. Hereafter, we need not appoint people on permanent rows at all. We can go only by fixed term. So this is not obviously, this is a method of fooling the employers by saying I'm introducing fixed term appointment. And to add to that, they want to amend it to include termination of services on expiry of the fixed term employment as an exclusion, as an exclusion to the definition of workmen. I'm sorry, retrenchment.  It's already interpreted by the Supreme Court. Where's the question of you're doing it again? Then you have another interesting provision in the court that pertains to contract labor. The contract labor is abolished. The central government found that neither itself nor the states are making use of Section 10 of the Existing Contract Labor Act. So they defined non-core activities, packing, security, gardening and similar things which are peripheral, canteen. They defined some 11 or 12 things, nature of work as non-core activities and said, in these areas you can have contract labor. Other than these areas you cannot have contract labor. We should obviously think it is a core activity. Now, the question will be, there also there is one small explanation or a gap where they say in certain activities, in external activities, there comes a something where permission can be that is only to make money. That is not a serious thing. Now it depends on the officer what he thinks about it. What happens from tomorrow if a court of court on wages is brought into effect? What will happen from tomorrow? There are public sector companies, private companies which have some of them have 70% of their labor forced through contract labor and some of them have 50%, some of them 60%. Violence to a great extent in many places is because of that contract labor and the law says they must get equal work, equal wages how many people are doing it? Not many people are following this at all and now in one stroke if you abolish, how should the industry run? Yes, it should be abolished. I agree with that because employers have exploited contract in the name of contract labor, exploited labor. There's no opinion. Whatever employers may say, even after 47 years of working for employers, I emphatically say this is not a real provision. There must be a abolition of contract labor. There must be a flexibility in employment in the form of if I surplus, I will retrench.  Place and embargo on retrenchment.  But you don't tell them, look, you can't engage contract labor in core activities. You can't engage permanent workmen for that because when they become surplus, you have no way to get rid of them. How to operate them? So that's one thing they have brought and now I do not know what they want to do with it. Then I have another amendment to be shared with you. I'm not exactly amendment, another change brought about, but which is a very positive change and that is with regard to standing orders. Now, standing orders, before I go to that, let me go to this retrenchment back for a moment because it comes under Industrial Disputes Act and that is instead of 100 workmen for coverage under Chapter 5B, they have raised it to 300. Yes, this helps MSMEs quite a lot, but MSMEs get into trouble only because the large industry gets into trouble. Who is MSMEs? A person who produces the goods for a larger industry and gives it to them, what we used earlier called as ancillary units, if it is in the same company. Who are MSMEs? Now, for example, take the example of a company like Toyota. They have got about 100 MSMEs working for them, medium and small enterprises. And the main unit gets into trouble where will these MSMEs get work? So now we are allowed MSMEs to exist. Something is better than nothing. With all this, there is still a lurking fear in the employers that it is difficult to run the plant with these kind of interventions. The other day, I got a call three days back, a revenue officer is directed by Thashildal to close down a pharma plant which employs about 1200 people on the ground that some of its employees were COVID positive. Tell me one industrial establishment in the country where no workmen of the establishment has tested COVID positive. So power is given in the hands of Thashildas, what should happen to the country? Even here, they don't rectify these things. The same mistakes which were there continues to be still operating against the employer. I am changing, no doubt. I also agree that under this industrial core, relations core, some good things have come. For example, the cognition of trade union, where there is only one trade union in establishment, it is automatic recognition. Where there is more than one trade union, the union which gets the support of 51% of the workforce will be the only union to be recognized and it will be the sole negotiating union. Where there are two or more trade unions, a trade union which has the support of 20% of the workforce will get one seat in what they call as negotiating council. About four trade unions, each one of them get 20, 21, 22%. Each one will have one member in the negotiating council. Now what happens? Philosophies of the trade unions differ. So it makes negotiations more difficult. One more thing which I want to draw your attention here is the grievance redressal procedure in the code. You will be surprised when you are shocked to know that grievance redressal procedure, any workmen can approach this grievance redressal committee with an application. Say for example saying that I have not got one increment and the grievance redressal committee comes to the conclusion that there is no such injustice caused. The workmen may directly approach the conciliation officer. One conciliation after 45 days and the conciliation officer will conciliate if no settlement is allowed he will refer it to court. Then what for the trade unions? The idea of calling a dispute of the industry as he put is that a substantial number of workmen should be interested in the dispute. In a factory of 500 people if two workmen go and say sir they have not properly calculated my bonus, they have not done this. Unless the union is satisfied it will not take up the cause. Individual workmen will not have a right to raise the dispute straight away against the employer. What happens tomorrow? 100 more keys will not be sufficient to manage the number of disputes that are going to be raised in the years to come. Each workmen will have individual grievances and all of us know that and most of the good trade unions and the individual worker goes to them. They don't straight away pass a resolution to take up his cause. They will themselves verify the facts and then if they are satisfied they will tell him sorry you don't have a good case let us not take it up as an interstellar dispute. Otherwise every case can go up. Every case can go up. Even the smallest no need for support of other workmen. Till now there was no need of support of other workmen to challenge only in the case of dismissal, discharge, retrenchment. Now for every small thing it can become a dispute to be referred for adjudication. What have they achieved in the process? More industry disputes to capital to say that instead of one labor court to judge labor court is abolished there will be only industrial tribunals. There will be two judges one an IS officer at the secretary level another is a judicial officer you are further ruining the adjudication methodology. Adjudication process is going to be totally ruined by this industrial relations go with whom they consulted why they did that nobody knows they're going to further delay the whole process. What an IS officer at the secretary level coming and sitting under industrial to adjudicate industries when the labor court judges who have senior judges who have been judges for 20 30 years are incapable of understanding and passing correct orders in industrial matters. Till today I have not seen a labor court judge who had experience with labor laws who were able to understand and dispose of cases. When such is the situation you are going to bring this where are you going to land us all into one other factor before I give time for uh uh Mr. Vikas five more minutes I suppose is okay five more minutes for my talk yeah uh is that uh there have been a large-scale complaints in respect of certification of standing orders bureaucracy at its top level. So what the parliament has done is to raise the limit for applicability of requirement to have standing orders to 300 from the existing 50 or 100 different states of different numbers. Most important in the chain they have brought is when you submit a certificate standing order for certification and or modification and if no decision is taken or no order is passed by the end of 60 days the draft that you have given for certification is deemed to have been certified or modification is deemed to have been certified. This is extremely important amendment uh in fact instead of 300 they should have made it 500 it's all that at least they have made it 300 because I remember for a pharma company I had to go to court to the high court saying that I've submitted the draft standing order seven years back and the officer is still not certified. The reasons are obvious he want he has some demand which I can't meet. Then the high court said you certify the standing orders in 30 days. From such pathetic situation do you call that a development of industrial law? It's only development of bureaucrats and development of officers of the department. What should I have been the law labor law by this time in this country when you are getting so many foreign universities to come. Many of them have come to me and said sir we have totally disappointed we have come from Germany we have come from France we have people coming from UK we have people coming Scandinavian countries we have people coming from Sweden we have people coming from United States all of them have a common grievance that they have made a mistake. I wish prime minister if this is brought to the notice of the prime minister as to what is the it's all right if we get five industry or five hundred billion dollars if your laws were to be all right possibly would have five thousand billion dollars. What is the big achievement otherwise? China was not even at our level in 1947 where are they today? Germany population of seven crores France population of six crores UK population of 3.5 crores where are they all gone with such small number of labor available where are they and where are we? All this is because there is no hard-run development you know entrepreneurship it is telling like telling the farmers don't work we will waive all your loans telling the workmen don't work we'll tell the employer to pay you salary telling the bureaucrats you can do any plunder no action will be taken. Industrial law has also suffered in the same way we have missed the bus according to me we are unlikely to catch up because the new court is equally bad we want competent people to run the labor courts run the judiciary and also those in bureaucracy who are given the power to deal with certain aspects of industrial law to update their knowledge about industrial law. All that they know is small violation goes to the commissioner he will call the employer and say I will prosecute your managing director I'll prosecute your directors he will not try to find out what the problem is union says you're violated I also say there is violation I'll prosecute as all the employers are coming here into country only to get prosecuted. This attitude must change unless this attitude changes whatever you may ask in any number of seminars you may have on development of industrial law there is no development of industrial law there is no development in the positive thinking line it is all who gets what in the market employers who can exploit are comfortably exploiting and they have got good support from all sectors honest employers are being threatened of being sent to jail unfortunately the quality of trade union leaders just as the quality of management consultant if I say trade union leaders trade union you say what about you fellows what advice are you giving I always tell my friends in the trade union if you advise workmen listen to you if I advise by my employers don't listen to us lack of proper industrial relations advise or advise an industrial law is one factor for this kind of handicap growth unfortunately employers don't buy and large and there are exceptions everywhere but what I'm saying buy and learn they don't seem to be serious about these things they come to know what are the consequences of non-compliance if we say anything more they say that law is in the book we know tell us how not to complicate it without getting into problem and that because possibly is the merit of the consultant trade union leaders there are no trade union leaders I have told all of them you are only led by your office bearers local office bearers of the union you in fact they tell me sadly I know what this union is doing is wrong but those local office bearers don't listen to me but he's the president of the union so there is a deterioration in the standards of trade union leaders and people I can see that Simon or MS Christian or Raj Gopal to what they are today possibly they may say there's a deterioration in the management also to some extent may be true also therefore I was only trying to tell you development of industrial law is there but not does not show any sign of a positive development it's all one-sided give them this give them that do this do that for example take this book now bonus there's a bonus that will be paid on the basis of minimum wages minimum wages differ from state to state I have what establishments in different states so I must pay different points how can I I have only one balance sheet if I go by the balance sheet it gives me a certain indicates a certain percentage no amount will differ again though the percentage is small whatever you are nobody thinks whether such a thing is practical and resulting in this situation the unfortunate I think I have passed my time by five minutes Mr. Vikas it's open to you thank you very much for all those who have been listening so patiently Mr. Vikas yes sir you are done and mute yeah we have unmuted we don't want you to that the people get distracted towards us they should have the spotlight on the main speaker or no yeah sir we will ask someone who can if anyone has any question they can post it one question is difference between an employee workmen and an employee difference between you see though they have defined workmen and employee wherever it is necessary they use the word that is necessary they use the word employee when it comes to employee state product product they put the definition of employee there where it comes to workmen in the provisions with regard to the present industrial law they have put the definition of workmen so workmen is defined for the purposes of industrial district and maybe one or two enactment but most of them like for example payment opponents it goes by the word employees definition employees brought in for it goes by the definition of employee employee who may not be a workmen is also an employee so they have put both the whole thing I said I told you is a mess up to my mind it looks like this there may have been certain good officers there with no work in the Shamma Bhavan or whatever it is Shamik Bhavan or whatever it is they have brought 24 books divided into four pros to make one book that is exactly what will happen because nobody has applied their mind to some of these things sir this is Basmaraj Virayal the division bench of the Kanata Kahai court last week held that the software employees of course they declared that the in Texas instrument case that the software employees are also workmen within the meaning of industrial districts in 1947 what would be scenario under the new court sir same thing no difference word to word same and second one is one of the second is one of the advocate commented that the code is a immediate reaction to the covid scenario and it may not be ever notified at all because of the opposition and all what it's your takes around that what is the court will not be being of the court is a some sort of a knee jerk reaction to the covid scenario and it may not be the light of the day it may not be notified that's what I don't know I don't have much idea about it it's an immediate reaction to the code scenario just to the balance the things and if the things improve the code may not be notified or it may go substantial changes to bring back to the original scenario that's what they say you're talking from 24th onwards is it not the code is it sorry sorry I couldn't hear you but please if the code does not bring in no the the comments are not reacted to code it is the code itself you're talking about the not being brought the the comment your question is no they're disturbing I'll repeat the question sir yeah please repeat but then it cuts it cuts please go ahead and slowly tell me yes this is is there any special provisions to the employees engaged by an e-commerce giants special provision for a e-commerce giants no not at all okay can you clarify about the pendency of the dispute and whether individual disputes also amount to pendency of disputes under section 33 sub clause 2 sub clause 2 sub clause b no individual dispute in the individual dispute even though they are taken up by the union and called as an industrial dispute it is only for the purposes of the matter being taken up by the court that's all only for the purposes of individual purpose to challenge the dismissal discharge etc so individual disputes become the industrial dispute only to the extent of that matter being taken up by the court but it will not be so for the purpose of section 33 to be or 33 1 or 33 3 whatever the provision permission and approval yes so there is no question I'll ask Mr. Basur Raj the daksha legal person to express his views before we conclude for the day Mr. Basur Raj of course Mr. Esan Murthy sir is one of the most respected senior advocates who has a who is considered as an authority on the labour law and the management side that's what and it's a privilege to have him here today and thank you for the wonderful speech sir it's a thought-provoking speech and also very critical analysis of the entire scenario so hope we'd meet again with another seminar on a equally mind-blowing or thought-provoking subject yeah and Mr. Basur Raj could you just share your thoughts also on the social distancing and COVID-19 how you should be protected but my repeating every time that we are masked suddenly I'm without notice I must speak so you do it yeah so thank you friends and overall first of all we would like to thank Mr. Esan Murthy the senior advocate from Karnataka Bar to share his knowledge on the topic which we all would have loved to hear and as it rightly said the first session and the second sessions had different parameters and a different prism of thought process and before we part for the day tomorrow do stay connected with us to have the different perspectives under the criminal law while we will having we'll be having Mr. Ujwal Nagam the senior council who is also presentry on the session of trial of 26 November 2008 terror attack on Mumbai do stay connected with us tomorrow at 5 p.m. everyone stay safe stay blessed and again keep on wearing the mask maintain social distancing and those who have not got vaccinated go for that it's in the interest of your good self as well as your near and dears and thank you sir for giving your time and giving the insights in a very lucid and a clear manner thank you and thank you to your daughter who has helped us to connect thank you thank you