Hello and welcome to Leaders Room. My name is Kate Sweatman and I'm with Iklif. I have with me here today I'm delighted to introduce you to in fact Sahar Hashemi. She's a serial entrepreneur. She founded co-founded Coffee Republic in the UK and she runs skinny candy And we're delighted to have her here today because she has a lot to say around Starting a company but even more importantly from our point of view from the leadership point of view is innovation So Sahar, thank you very much for coming. No, it's a complete pleasure. I'm delighted to have you here I know this isn't your first trip to KL What I'd like to ask you about first of all before we get into some of your eight lessons around entrepreneur innovation is How you entered into the field of entrepreneurship actually because I do know that you were a lawyer and I know that your brother who's your co-founder was an investment banker and You know that is a path that's clear It's actually something that you can easily see what the future is going to be if you work very hard and are successful And yet you left all that and you jumped into this world of entrepreneurship And I'm wondering if you could tell us about how you how you did that Well, yes, it's an interesting question because I never ever thought I was an entrepreneur I was growing up. I suppose in the 80s and there was just you know in terms of role models in the UK We had kind of Richard Branson and that was it and he was a bit of a kind of superhuman nature And you just no one could relate to him. So I thought well clearly. I'm not the entrepreneurial type So when I was choosing my career, it wasn't even an option in the 80s So you became a kind of lawyer or banker or accountant and I chose the law and I kind of very much I studied at university. I enjoyed it when I joined the law firm I love doing my training, but very quickly I realized that actually once I sort of did my training and actually became a fully-fledged lawyer I realized oh, there's a disconnect here between who I am what my personality is and What lawyers need to be and I realized it sort of didn't suit my personality and I just remember Complaining thinking this is not me But I think in the 80s very much it didn't have to be you what you did you sort of put your work face on You didn't have to have that strong Connect between who you are and what you do So I ended up staying in this law firm for five years and I would have never thought of leaving because once you get on the path It's difficult to leave it just we have a lot of investment. You've got a lot of education There's a lot of expectations around you and there's that brass rain called partnership out there And you're working your way up and if you leave you've lost everything you worked for and then sometimes I suppose events happen and Sometimes I think Unfortunately, we don't need to we don't make changes that we know we need to unless something kind of drastic happens and what happened to me was We I come from a close family of four and my dad died very subtly at a young age And that was in a way the spark that was what I just suddenly it was like a wake-up call thinking look, you know, I'm doing something.  I go there just for the paycheck and Surely I just realized also my dad died that actually life is short and you've got to do some of you Absolutely love doing where you could be you And I left this law firm and it was a bit of a leap because I had no idea I was leaving all this behind everything I built most of my kind of life from sort of since I was a teenager But it was a leap and I'm happy I took the leap How did you get the insight as to what leap to take because one of the things that we know from our experience? We we we deal with people in corporations all the time and a lot of what we talk about is, you know What is your purpose?  Okay, funny enough when I say leap It was a leap literally a leap down a cliff. It was not a leap into entrepreneurship It was just leaving and it was just and I actually left and I had no idea what I was going to do And I kept thinking well, I'll be in house lawyer. Maybe like that I'll be a bit closer to business and so it was just a leap into in a way Self-discovery for a want of better work and actually yes expert And I decided just take some time off I'd never taken sort of any time off kind of through education and work and I went to visit my brother Bobby who was working in New York as an investment banker and Really, that's when I was in New York and I fell in love with skinny lattes But again, I fell in love with him who's exactly and that was I think if you remember New World coffee had just opened in New York But I fell in love with it again You know, I was fell in love with it, but I came back to my brother and I said gosh I really missed them I can't believe we haven't got these coffee bars as I was going for my job interviews to be in-house lawyer And my brother said I can't believe you've said this is a great business idea. I was like business idea You know, I meant why didn't someone else open it for me to go to it? I I didn't think that was the business idea and there was it that was the first Kind of seeds of entrepreneurship because it was something I needed as a customer Exactly and I hear you know jumping ahead 20 years one of the things in your book is you know get in the Feet of your get into the shoes of your customer and that's what's gonna give you insight Essentially kind of what I learned on this journey at coffee proper being an entrepreneur is I did something that was very much me I love tasting things. I love eating things. I'm a real consumer So I would you know, I ended up connecting myself Isn't there a big jump between loving to drink coffee and then running an empire? Well, you know think about running an empire is you know once never to talk There's no such thing as running it you do once every time, you know And you just slowly get used to that I think what people find daunting actually about entrepreneurship is this idea of subtly if you know no one Kind of no one is born 50 and no one is you know You just it's a step-by-step day by day stage and it's actually very doable Which is why my first books called anyone can do it because you know, I never thought I would be like this And yeah, so so so that's and interestingly actually on the flight here I was reading there's a new book called creative confidence by David Kelly and Tom Kelly from IDO And that was interesting There was a whole kind of chapter there about how we used to do stuff because it looked good And that was a thing to do and you know your parents were proud and and now people are just actually have to be much More true to who they are and they don't choose their career because it's the thing to do when it looks good And it's safe because they doesn't exist I suppose so it's essentially about you know Something that actually suits your personality and is you did now was this a break for you in terms of your family You said your family is very strong very close and you lost your father. Did your family? what was their attitude about work and Life because I'm relating what you're saying back to what a lot of people would say about the Asian culture Particularly Chinese Asian culture, which is actually you do do what your parents want you to do because that's the filial piety thing and Your parents know better and so and they're trying to look out for you They're trying to keep you safe and so they try to help you Create a future that they know will get you there and what I'm hearing you say is that maybe that's harder to do now Than it used to be maybe that was a maybe that was a good path when you only had you know, Dr. Lawyer accountant But now you've got Dr. Lawyer accountant, you know skinny candy options and so it's much much even if your parents are Have all the best intentions. It's very hard for them to actually figure out what your future should be for you That's right. Yes, absolutely, and I do get terrified the idea of young children now wanted to be entrepreneurs at a very young age and We did it and I always I mean, you know, my my my dad I so we had my mom and my mother was actually very very supportive because my mother is intuitively a Wristaker and a adventurer and my dad much more conservative So we always think if only he knew what we ended up doing that we both chucked our jobs as Lauren the rest of Anchor I would have probably killed him off anyway that decision in itself But yes, but you know sometimes I think I suppose sort of which is kind of what I believe as well Is that it's quite good at a young age to go and work somewhere and have a profession learn work ethic And then maybe later on and then maybe parents have more confidence in their kids once They know they've done that and they've earned their stripes in a way and I learned an awful lot Being in law firm of my brother at the mess of bank and I see people who have had the traditional Career I think have learned a lot of disciplines that they can I was gonna say discipline I think it's true. It is true.  There's something that you managed to do to get over that dangerous hump and Would you attribute it to your training? And no, do you know what I actually treated to is that fact that? We just genuinely we were our own customers. We loved the product. We done our research We were out there seeing what's out there I was lucky that my partner was my brother who had the financial skills So together we made the perfect entrepreneur I spend a lot of time judging a lot of business plan awards and entrepreneur awards And you know, it's when you see why businesses fail people often go into businesses where they just think it's a good idea Someone said it's a good idea. They haven't really thought it through. They don't really know the market You often find the reason why so many businesses fail. It's just this sort of again lack of thoroughness Yes, it's a lack of thoroughness. They don't they don't really know they didn't hadn't planned it properly Interesting how about building the business in terms of people, you know, we're a leadership and governance center So we're always interested in the people aspect When you build a business much larger It goes beyond your own dream and even beyond your own skills into Finding people and sort of getting them up to speed so that they can do what you need them to do When you're not in the room, right when you're not in the shop because you ended up with how many 110 shops, right? So any insights to share on that well, okay I think you've had a big point for me because that's sort of currently what I What I do a lot of and kind of it's sort of in a way goes goes to my habits because I Used to think, you know companies start off small They need the entrepreneur and when you get big you just need professionals to run the company And in a way that people who show up on time and do their job and absolutely sort of, you know It's kind of exactly people managers, you know Who's professional job is managing and they should think and that's how we felt the coffee Republic, you know We build it up. There was a lot of passion a lot of out-of-the-box thinking and when we got became an adult in a way When the company became an adult It's sort of we felt like oh now it needs almost adults supervision. So I'm fascinated by what you learned in retrospect growing Coffee Republic Attempting to professionalize it having it work to an extent, but then you came to a realization that Maybe that's not the best way forward for a company So can you talk more about that this whole notion of innovation and entrepreneurship happening throughout the company? Yes Well, I think kind of I suppose, you know You you really learn from your mistakes and it was only once I left go for Republic that I realized the idea that we thought Oh, we're just the entrepreneur and entrepreneurs are good for startups and entrepreneurs don't actually belong to a company that grows up How wrong that was because the world's changed to such a kind of level now whereby every single company needs to behave much more like an Entrepreneurial company let much more like a startup because even if you're a gigantic company, you still need the agility the flexibility The forward thinking but what about alignment? What about alignment? How do you make sure that those people who are being so entrepreneurial and creative aren't just Heading off in the wrong direction. You see I think they get this sort of misconception about people being entrepreneur creative as in they are risk-takers out there taking bold risks and for me and ignoring everyone else and you know taking Searing the company off in another direction. You know for me creativity is the everyday stuff. It's in the really mundane stuff It's constantly reviewing what you're doing seeing what the competitors are empathizing with your customers And seeing what's out there and making sure you're ahead of the curve The way I learned this lesson was you know when we were small at corporate Republic We were a typical startup. No head office. No hierarchy. No bureaucracy.  They would get to pet store every day So you know constantly people knew what was going on in the field And it was out of the box thinking because we were new so we didn't hire all those experienced people We didn't hire people who knew we couldn't afford people industry with industry experience So all we could afford was coffee drinkers was you know kind of fanatical coffee drinkers Who were really obsessed with what we did and really believed in the corporate Republic? But as we got bigger very very gradually we started attracting the CVs We brought people in from larger companies and they said oh, well, you know, we need a structure and we know And of course there's a balance there because you can't run a company with 100 bars, you know out of a kitchen table So you do need certain structures and disciplines But sort of ways to keep track of things. Okay ways to keep track of things But that came at the expense of sort of it was like, okay now suddenly and I remember when this new Cohort came that we hired because we thought we needed them almost barriers went up around desks, you know Okay, what's your title? Okay, that's your title. You focus on that area. I became marketing director That was going to be only my area marketing Um, you know, then the whole out of the box thinking goes because you hire someone from Nestle And he spends his whole time telling you got a thing he does and that's you know, they try that Nestle Nestle has commissioned huge money on that believe me that idea doesn't work So suddenly and then very much so suddenly the head office becomes very important It all happens at the head office, you know, it's all about the meetings It's all about the people down there don't feel as invested anymore because frankly they aren't there And then you're fixing to come far away because you're so busy in the head office That you don't have time to go out to the stores anymore And I could see this happening and I didn't quite realize what was going on I was like, I'm in the store and sometimes I was like, oh, why aren't you at the office? What are you doing? Well, it was really important to go and have a latte every morning and see what was going on Rather than read some market research report or some mystery customer And and that's when I saw the difference between entrepreneurial culture versus corporate culture And it's really kind of once I left I realized that Kind of what large companies are struggling now with this this idea of you know, how to be innovative They have so many resources, but it's just this lack of creativity, which is basically ideas plus making it happen So what happens? Why why do people love corporatization so much? Why do people want to have the walls up in effect? Why do they enable the the titles to take over? What's your theory? My theory of that is that it's been like that since the beginning and it was fine in the 70s and Kind of 80s because change wasn't that big So as long as you set up things were you know the status quo was pretty much the status quo You know throughout your whole career and all you needed to do was just turn up and the pace of change wasn't so much So I just think it's actually a habit and I think in large companies because these things structures have been set in stone in a way They have become very rigid structures I think technology has made a big difference too. Don't you think because now you can be out in the field And you can be in connection where before you couldn't you sort of had to choose I'm either in headquarters where I'll be talking with my You know peer group In the in the different functions all the time or I'll be out in the market And I'll be receiving orders, but I can't be both and now you can't be both And we was they don't realize that it's an interesting way. There's a disconnect They haven't caught up with technology the the way technology has so you know in the same extent I always say people in big companies listen the same way that on a sunday you still get work emails It wasn't like that before I mean before you'd have to actually turn up at the office to get you know Get a voicemail or hear a get a get a sort of receiver fax And now because workers encode so much on people's lives There's no quid pro quo Whereas I think it should be the reverse and people should be allowed that flexibility And much more openness and once you remove those old structures I think people are inherently creative It's just they have and they want to believe they want to engage They want to be part of this work, but if you keep if you keep you know counting their hours And and and clocking them in and out then they're going to respond in kind and say well If this is how you're counting me then this is how I'm going to count you And then it becomes it's sort of an almost slightly antagonistic relationship between the individual and the work as opposed to We know we have faith in you. We know you're doing your job.  So for me it really is and I think corporations are a huge need of them They feel The people in it feel oh, I'm not the creative type entrepreneurs are different So I spent a lot of time working within corporations saying actually, you know, we are all the same It's just that you've got these structures, which are just like literally Stifling any creativity you have or you may have gone through a system that has And this is something I hear about a lot in asia Which is you've gone through a system that basically made you want Rewarded you for knowing a right answer As opposed to rewarded you for pushing on an idea or even challenging an idea or coming up with a different idea And so that's it seems like the The challenge for people who've been through a system like that wherever that may be Is that much greater because they've got to take more layers off of themselves in order to do that So i'm really curious in your workshops. How do you do that?  I i'm closed and you actually help open them I mean, I mean it's really interesting because I'm the way I do it and this is how I tackle creativity is Because there are these wonderful creativity books by i'm sure people you know, but I kind of find these sort of Something's complicated and if you're you know An executive it's just it's not it's for me I just figure that listen and this is what I've realized isn't entrepreneurs This is what we think about these a couple of stocks that we stick to and if you think like that then this will Really help towards you becoming entrepreneurial and again. I think it's about energy It's just that you you do have so one of them is I can go through my habits But you know becoming your customer Genuinely, you know experiencing what they experience not reading a market research report being out there Seeing it cooling. We're not so different from each other Whatever that person's experience whatever you experience is what they experience. Okay.  They didn't consider themselves consumers. It was really extraordinary Whereas you know for so for so the way I see this entrepreneurs It's really easy because all entrepreneurs start as customers themselves. You know, that's that that's all they look at So so that's a really obvious thing that changes energy hugely and I even I have this I've got to pharmaceutical companies and a lot of them actually they chose that job because of the drugs helping people's lives But there's a disconnect. They forgot why they're there. They never even see that end result They're there managing that becomes what they do day to day is just their career Versus and so once people start engaging with the end that to me the whole idea. That's a great example Why did I go work for a pharmaceutical company? Because I know they create products that save lives, you know, or improve the quality of life To me that implies a lot about what the role of the senior leader is To help people to stay connected to their own mission to stay connected to why they joined Do you have any ideas around that? I mean, what happens to the person at the top? That who probably also joined for the same reason for all the best reasons What happens to that situation that person at the top or that team at the top? Where somehow they they they sort of forget they they fail to help people connect to their own best self That's right. Yes. No, absolutely No, interestingly, um, I just actually went to breakfast with um, so terry lehy of tesco kind of I'm sure you're coming and he said something interesting about market research He said by the time market research reaches the CEO's office it becomes a fairy tale You know, so in a way by so sanitized that you know, it's not the real story Yeah, it's completely just just, you know, the first person that gets the market research changes around and you know, it's exactly by time Absolutely, that's it. And so therefore I think it's companies that are, you know, again, you know It's it's I suppose just a bit of stereotype to mention a sort of steve jobs person But when you read someone like that who was so close to the end product, um, you know Howard Schultz of starbucks, you know, why did he go back because you know, probably he visited 26 stores a week When when he was CEO and he's gone back to do that because for him It was all about what was going on the theater the hiss of the coffee making the frothing of the machines So it's about all CEOs need to get back to that and you know, we sort of fall in love with the empire It's not about that. I think everyone needs to get back to the customer And which is what entrepreneurs do because there is no kind of empire there. It's just the customers all you have really Yeah, so that's my first one. My second one is get out So that's the whole thing we're discussing was you know, the reason why the I don't see the customer there so busy having being busy Exactly and bureaucracy then that kills it that whole Presentism that actually still exists Presentism yes, I mean showing up is Make sure you clock in before a certain hour make sure you clock out after what happens in between or what you're doing at your desk Yeah, and and sometimes I go through when I do my work So we go through the kind of their their weekly diaries and often they have conference schools With people within the same off like in the same building, you know how this and these are I mean, they never kind of get out there. Let's get out And this is just a conference school is not where creativity happens And they spend a lot of time reading reports and stuff So this idea entrepreneurs are out there because entrepreneurs don't have head offices So they actually have to be out there because you often work from where you are or do you see what I mean? Plus you're just constantly figuring it out. That's the nature of an entrepreneur. You're constantly figuring it out Exactly So that's that and kind of and again this whole idea of the royal visits that people do You know kind of again working with a beauty brand company They said that sometimes when senior management go to see the setup in a department store of the beauty brand Everyone knows everything's polished almost freshly painted by time they get there Absolutely everyone knows and they come like with a whole entourage and you know And that's stuff entrepreneurs then do so I reduce this all to real simple stuff entrepreneurs because I think My third one is the importance of being clueless Which is basically entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs are clueless.  So you spot opportunities others miss Um, so that that is kind of a big point of this idea of unlearning Becoming a bit clueless forgetting about what you always know. I think I think it's an important one I think that's very important. I can see that and yet I can also see that you do you do know some things And so the balancing act is there a is balance the right way to talk about it or is an interplay Yes, an interplay. It's being aware. Yes I mean what I try to do again I'm not because you try but the but what I what I try to my workshop is um I have sort of limiting phrases versus clueless phrases and some of the words that and people are just, you know As soon as you ask people it just comes out, you know, oh, no, this is not how we do it Oh, no, then this is not the right time. I mean, this is not important now This is how we do we're too busy now for this You sort of it just kind of is all these words that without realizing it become That's the thing and people say that and people are often responsible themselves They become aware they say it a lot So it's kind of in a funny way It's the language is the attitude of you know, am I looking at this afresh or am I looking this with all this baggage that I carry And I really sold out and is my ego involved in whatever however I've done it before because I think that's a lot of what happens when you get these people in from Company x and they join your organization and they how do I imprint on here? How do I show my value? It's all about their own security around Showing that they're valuable as opposed to saying hey, you know what I'm new here. Let me see what I can learn Yes, exactly. And then that then that's where you sort of said, you know, a lot of that's why they say, you know Everyone's reading the same diet of information That their competitors are reading, you know, everyone meets the same market research reports Again the book that they were saying they copy and paste, you know, it's the same thing So this is the idea of actually, you know, what sounds like bad market research. Yeah, absolutely But they tend to do that. They're just sitting there is a lot of bad market research So this is about being an outsider checking the box again. It's not passionate It's not passionate saying well, there's a process the process includes this It happens to be market research. Okay, let's check that box. Exactly. But it's not deep curiosity Exactly. It's not deep knowledge And what seems to be the passion is deep curiosity is actually What's better for you as an individual have deep curiosity and have passion or take the box I'm taking the box is very boring thing to do and you turn into Automatum when you take the box, you know, whereas when you're exercising curiosity in the workplace That's why entrepreneurs have so much fun and love it Because that's what you're doing. You're exploring and what I find actually often is People are very different how they are like at the barbeque the weekend than they are in the workplace and Applies quite a bit for men as well. I think and so sometimes they don't bring those same skills of Playfulness and that sort of thing to the workplace. So this is about, you know, removing everything they know So my cluelessness my fourth habit is Is notching up on nose Which is basically Yes, notching up on nose, which is basically receiving a lot of nose So what I mean by this is, you know, when we were at comfort public, I mean, we got rejections from 40 bank managers That's nothing because Howard Schultz of starbucks got 278 bank managers So that's the idea that entrepreneurs often get nose in pursuit of their idea because innovation is really messy And no one's going to say oh my god genius idea. This is brilliant. People always reject ideas But there's a lot of conservatism from everyone's part and especially big companies So this is the idea that actually no one's going to say yes. Oh my god, that's such a brilliant idea You're going to get a lot of resistance because new things are resisted. So you need to factor that in I'm thinking back to when I was when I was in university and graduating and of course everyone applies for jobs Right and people get a lot of nose and the way that they dealt with that Rather than get rejected was to tape them up on their walls, you know But so you could make fun of the no you could make fun of the no and just say oh, I got another no today You got to sort of take the power out of the no and not let it bother you It's almost the word homeless has to become meaningless Exactly, you know because it's just someone's opinion and they don't know what you know They don't know they haven't got time. Maybe they had a bad day. They said no, exactly And yet this got a real stigma. I think in companies. Oh, I went someone's almost said no Oh my god, like this is it, you know, I remember when I was at a law firm It was just someone saying no to an idea was really you were sort of struck down So I think is this and this sort of attitude to and that creates fear and I think there's a little fear in organizations And fear. I think there's the biggest Block to creativity because fear makes us complacent here in judgment. Yeah, well, it's it makes you very worried Yeah, so as the leader and again, I'm drawing this back to we recently considered I told you before we got going here. We recently completed a very large study of asia Asian leadership and one of the things that Actually is no surprise. You didn't need a large study for this Was that it's often the culture in many asian firms in many asian families in many asian countries That there is a boss at the top who is very much respected And the form of respect is to not speak up The way the form that the that respect takes is to Do what the boss says and this is obviously a tough thing For a company that needs to be innovative because every company needs to be innovative these days So, you know, maybe now or maybe later you can give us some advice on Either to this person or to this person on what needs to change in that relationship It's probably both actually But what advice would you have on the basis of your attempting to help people to become or organizations to become more innovative How can they get past that very entrenched dynamic? That Is actually, you know centuries old Yeah, I'm gonna say well, that's the kind of million dollar question in a way I suppose kind of what happens is presumably the the the leader on the top realizes that some sort of change needs to happen Right. I mean, that's the thing.  It's not going to work anymore So then the question is what do I need to change? So I think the leader needs to change their own behavior about how he released they released sort of, you know kind of people's creativity And you know, once it's released the way I see it is, you know, I don't know much about company culture All I know is about individual behavior And once everyone buys into this idea that they need to behave differently and it's actually fun to behave differently And there's a bit of reward in it and then there's reward in it. It's certainly no punishment And exactly that sort of that's why I just believe you just slowly that's how you create kind of culture change for me It's individual. So, you know, that's what I kind of working with small teams And you know, what I'm seeing in corporations, which is why me as an entrepreneur gets invited constantly to big corporations Is they need that they listen We need these people to they're too stuck there. They hate change And it's that sort of stagnancy is not it's not good for a company in this it is crazy world We live in so I think everyone's realizing how important that is and it's becoming a bit of an imperative I think for everyone to change they everyone Top down to to change how they behave are there certain industries or certain parts of the world or certain Types of companies that are getting this message more quickly Are there certain for example, are there industries that are being more affected by safe technology change? Or are you just finding that there's sort of a general awakening to yes I think yeah, it's a general awakening in their pools and there are changes happening You know people are behaving differently, but it takes a long time because that old World Corporate culture, you know was there for a long time. So it takes it takes time to change direction Of a big ship like that I think there's definitely you know one can always sort of celebrate the kind of those sort of convalesced startups and You know, that's how they do it But you know, I think that change is happening in what you call the kind of bigger kind of companies And it's just in little pockets Um, it's just that they don't kind of they haven't seen the results yet And it's it's a difficult thing to put your finger on But the fact that people are surviving means they're not behaving in the old way because I'm convinced the old way is just Just no company is going to survive if they behave Yeah, and then young people you see if it's when it's less fun You're not going to attract the the young young people don't want to Well, you're certainly not going to attract people who want to be creative. Yeah And young people I think because you know because of technology the way their brain is wired They're completely I mean they're not going to work for a company that Treats them like that. So yes, it's interesting. Yeah so, you know Any words of wisdom I mean for For for people who are trying to make that shift like say say we're say We're dealing with someone who they're at the top of the house They've had a more traditional kind of upbringing and they've had a more traditional kind of experience They get it intellectually that they need to make this shift But there's other things that need to happen inside of them to truly Open up and feel comfortable with this to start talking to some people more on a first name basis To start really listening to new ideas and speaking last instead of first You know to truly keeping the door open in fact maybe moving the door so that it's not at this big office at one end of the You know one end of the building to you know more central location What kind of advice can you give to that person who's trying to make that shift and Is hitting a bigger barrier perhaps than they know how to do it and this person You were thinking the sort of leadership person right? Yeah You know I mean what I find is often because this is kind of who sort of often instructs me with a problem You know people at the reason why they have got to the leadership position because they do have passion for the product Which is how they made themselves there or if there were so they do have something have that special connection They they have it. It's just that it's been suppressed. It's there But even for them it's been suppressed even for them They haven't got time to be out there with the customers anymore because they're because they're managing people and people You just think manage your managing per se was all you did So I think even for people like that that you know they really are Often get back in touch get back in touch absolutely And I recently sat on a very interesting board at an energy company And it was I don't sit on boards because I don't like the way kind of boards operate But it was called a consumer council. And so we had the CEO of the company We had the heads of all the departments, but we also had two of the girls in the call center at the call face We had I actually sat there as a customer I became a customer of the energy company and it was just we were just discussing the real stuff with the CEO there with the managers of the teams there with the girls from the call center saying yes You know, this is the problem we've got and a lot of real issues were discussed and the energy of the company changed They made huge changes because real stuff was discussed in real time with people from the call face You know was just this hierarchy doesn't work for anyone either or the the the person, you know, kind of way down So I think it's about everyone reconnecting with why do they do this? Yeah, yeah, are there any, um, I guess the last question Are there any industries that you've encountered where that's just not possible No, not at all.  You know, how could someone like me sit on the utility energy? That's exactly and yet it was one of the most interesting things I ever did because I just said, you know, Everyone's got a consumer. That's a beauty. Everyone's got a customer. It was got a consumer and everybody needs energy Everybody needs energy. Everybody needs telecommunications. Everybody if you're making something that nobody wants or nobody needs, then you're not in business So by definition, if you're in business, there is some sort of deep need that you're actually Meeting and you've just got to reconnect to that exact and often people who actually work there Must have had some connection with that with that product and that's what you often find, you know I think passion is a bit overused in a way for me passion is, you know Everyone's got some sort of connection to why they worked at whatever company it is And it's all about is going back inside and finding what is that connection? What do you actually love doing and reconnecting so once everyone works In their calling in their flow in their zone I think everyone performs better and and that's how you get energy change culture change. That's great Lovely. Well, I I could feel your passion and your energy. I can see why you're so successful I would love to talk to you more But I think we've come to the end of our meeting unless there's anything else that you'd like to say No, I've enjoyed it tremendously. Thank you very much Well, thank you very much. This has been Sahaj Hashemi here from with us with the leaders room And so I'd like to thank you very much for joining us here at Iqlif and I wish you the Best visit here in KL. Thanks. So thank you from the leaders room. It's a wrap


Right, so yeah, so I'm just curious to know how did how did the session go? I think they were about six six groups seven groups and Yeah, so did everyone get to share Was there anyone who did not have time to share Okay So looks like okay. I don't see any hands going up. So everybody got to share a little bit at least okay So yeah, so so the the question that I wanted to ask was Okay, you got to share a little bit now these are very superficial things of course food and you know what it takes you and Etc. So so yeah, so maybe we can just ask from one group Okay, how did it feel like was it uncomfortable to hear? You know was it uncomfortable? Was it comfortable? You know to talk about these things. I just wanted to hear maybe one group group one breakout group one your experience Who was in breaker group one? Yeah, I can't see the Any group probably you can you can just share Was it comfortable Uncomfortable Yeah, and then I'll ask for the question. So any group anybody from one group probably Okay, go ahead Chris So, yes, I think it was it was quite comfortable In a you know float quite well and you know Everyone was everyone in the group in my group was you know quite keen to you know to share and you know expand on on on what they wanted to you wanted to share Okay, so in my group there was say there was nexon and Kennedy, okay, and yeah, I thought pretty well In fact, we had some time after each of us shared and we started talking about something that You know it's has been in the news for some time and just how it could impact any of us And that is basically this this incident that happened in the Oscar Awards You know we will Smith went and slept Or Chris Rock. So yeah, we just we just felt that you know sometimes at our At a highest moment and it was actually mentioned by someone in as one of the actors You know they will can really can really be a Play a part in you know being everything back been everything you know to a very Unpleasant and You know what situation okay? Oh, yeah, so we everyone got to yeah, that's fine So so when we were talking about what is your weakness and what you need to work on? So, how was it was it?  Do you feel any reservation any inhibitions about talking about it? No, actually mine mine was I didn't have any inhibitions. It was it's kind of a general sort of Area that I need to work on I'm just to share with the group. It is basically about you know the dependence on God And having it you know better do that as you know as as much as possible I mean if you all want to achieve, you know achieve hundred percent, but for me, it's it's you know Sometimes even less than you know, I mean much less than hundred percent, you know sort of you know We just get caught up in other stuff other stuff. All right, so that is where I think I have to work on So yeah, I don't have any reservations Okay, okay Thank you. Thank you Chris. Thanks Any group where it was very silent? There's maybe one word answers and it just kept silent most of the time And he was any group like that, I don't think yeah, really, okay But it was like they all they all spoke but in very short because I Then we had at the time we had a little time at the end so we prayed for each other Misses and strengths to the Lord and we seek this Grace in all areas. So we had three four minutes at the end to pray also Okay, we all could share we but yeah, we were comfortable Comfortable sharing with each other. Okay two years now. We are together in the classroom even though online, but we know each other like Virtually, so probably we could share with each other. It was a good experience So so what do we're hearing where New that you this is information that you didn't know about the person was it like that for everyone like in the group Yes, yes. Yeah, it was okay. Okay, right. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.  So in in real life, I mean, you know in a in a Worksetting or ministry We may or we may not, you know, we might have some workshops or you know, we might have some Things like that, but but really, you know as as life happens as you know the day-to-day things happen While we well these things would help, you know, it could be one-off events That would help us understand the person and also the other person to understand you But to really have this do this as as part of your life to really do this To to maybe ask questions to and also to share about oneself in casual conversation Okay, and and this would really really help relate to another person. Okay, so when it comes to, you know, things like weaknesses, you know Maybe, you know, we could be guarded in certain things Of course, we need to be discerning and choose what we need to and depending on the on the context and the To the one to whom we are sharing.  Yeah, so this is something that would really help, you know, if if let's say in our lives We are not used to it if we might be highly competent highly skilled and really good at what we do, right but You know, when it comes to Certain things when it comes to social I won't say social skills, but you know when it comes to relating to people socially and maybe, you know, we we struggle Right. So these are things that would really help us to to relate to people to to do well to to make ourselves approachable and also to to to build trust right to break down preconceived notions or prejudices or biases that people might have against us about us and and build trust, you know, I remember going on an outbound training with with some of our senior managers in the last company that I worked for and I mean, this was a you know, typical outbound training where there was this rappelling There was this hike. There was these shallow rivers where we had to build our raft and You know, it was almost impossible to stay afloat You know falling into water and all those things and there was one zipline which we had to go across You know, it was raining. This was one of the rainiest places in the south so You know in one of those coffee growing places, so, you know, we we had to kind of go across that and Things like that, you know and learning from all that So we were with some of the senior Managers and then I remember one of the you know my reporting manager is pulling me aside and saying hey, you know, I had some Reservation some thoughts about you When we started the whole thing, you know, I mean he didn't say about you said, you know one had Certain mindsets about the I know about you, but that has changed You know that that is that has really changed and it's you know Now I once one can see you in a different light and I was glad for that You know, it's just that that opportunity gave us I mean that whole thing it gave us an opportunity to interact and get to know one one each other better And that really helped, you know, and I wish that okay that had happened during the course of our professional, you know life or professional work day But yeah, obviously it didn't happen. So I was glad for that right so it can really help Okay, so if we and especially if we as leaders if we would think on these lines, okay Okay, the other thing that we see is it's something called the foxhole principle meaning that you know That your life is, you know, it's not something to be spent alone Right when you have a friend and the foxhole typically refers to a hole which is dug in the ground It's an American term which a whole dug in the ground by a soldier to protect himself and this is a big enough for one person or at the most two And it's like a trench. It's like our trenches would be a slightly bigger So it's like a dugout in the ground. So the soldier is is at You know in a battle and protect oneself from the bullets or even if there was something, you know Some explosion nearby to protect oneself from the you know from the shrapnel And the dirt so it's below the ground, of course. So so that's the foxhole So so the foxhole principle is that, you know, when you have a foxhole, it's for It's for you and one one more person So it's good to have a friend in times of adversity. You know, it's too good to have a person whom you can trust in times of adversity and always we can do something to You know have that kind of relationship and if you look at problems 18 and worse 24, it's a very You know A verse which which highlights a very important truth. It says a man who has friends must himself be Friendly but there is a friend that sticks closer than our brother So man who has friends must himself be friendly in the sense, you know, I To ask that question. Am I friendly with others? You know, rather than saying, okay, I have no friends I have, you know, no one to complain to complain in that manner But really to check and see, you know, do I have am I friendly with others?  You know, there's a group and then they and then we hold back for some reason And and so we need to check and say, okay, am I Am I really friendly because I might come across as someone who's Very distanced very aloof and not wanting to you know, be friendly So well, you might have your reasons for doing that But but really, you know, when those opportunities are there to be to be friendly to show yourself friendly Which is what you are and so that's that's that's scripture and The second part of it is of course It says that there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother, you know friend For seasons of adversity. I'm sure, you know, we all have experience The goodness or the timely help of friends in seasons or in times of, you know, great difficulty and The stuff that they did what they, you know, maybe something simple You know, I I always appreciate appreciated, you know, the A friend who stays close by He's part of the church also when You know, my my father passed away a year ago and this was On the third of jan january Yeah, last year so so when I like we heard in the evening and We had to travel about six hours from here from from banglow to go to the house and We heard the news probably I think about six No, about eight or seven o'clock in the night in the evening And by the time we left it was about eight And I remember this person just came home and he didn't do anything. He didn't do much But this is what he did, you know, he knew that we were driving So he just went down to the car. He just, you know, wiped the car He took some newspapers wiped the windshield clean, you know, made sure that there was water in the dispenser to clean the windshield because it was on the highway and Made sure that the windshields were sparkling clean and and that's all, you know, there's no You know, great speech I think he just asked, okay, is there anything else that I can do? Do you want this thing?  I said, yeah, and it was first time I'm driving at night through the night rather So he was a little concerned. I said, no problem. I'm, you know, I'm quite sharp I won't go fast and and the thing is his what he did was a great help, you know, in times of that difficulty It was a small action that he did But it really, you know, it really meant a lot for for me for the family He was just there in just a few minutes. He was there He made sure he was there till we left and And and that was it, right? I'm sure there, you know, there have been times like that when People stepped into your lives and said, okay No, we'll do that. So there are people like that whom I can count Count on Maybe and say, okay, this person will take care. You know, I can depend on I can anytime of the day or night, you know I can just call and they would help and it's great to have such friends and I remember one one time when Yeah, I'll just share this because it was we were in this all night prayer and there was I don't think we had phones mobile phones. I don't remember but we were in this all night prayer and we We suddenly realized that a friend's knees was No, was stuck in a railway station And she the train got cancelled and she didn't know what to do You know, anyone here? so They contacted arthy, I think probably we had phones He called arthy and said, you know, can we my wife said can you go pick her up and They said hey, we can't, you know, we were leading. We're part of the all night prayer and you know And obviously, you know, I'm leading there and then I can't go so so who who do we check?  Now he hasn't seen her. He doesn't know anything about her. We just said this is her name And she's you know, there's one place we said, okay Let us stand there and can you just go and we didn't know what he was doing, you know What other responsibilities he had But he said, yeah, sure I'll do that. Okay, and it was late at night And it is I think close to midnight or and then he went picked it up Brought her dropped her home and you know, so Things like that when then you don't know, you know, where to go what to do a friend who helps in adversity So it is really good to have a friend and and that's the foxhole principle, you know Which really leads us to the next thing which means that For us to be friendly. Yes. That's that's that's definitely a starting point to to be able to have friends The other thing is also to invest Investment when we talk of talk about investment, of course, obviously with you know, what comes to our mind is money and maybe investment in terms of shares or, you know, other options, maybe Short-term long-term deposits and and so on But really investing in relationships is key For developing again, you know, when it comes to with I mean, sorry Winning with people when it comes to relating to people when it comes to leadership nurturing relationships okay, so Anything that you want to nurture It's going to take effort Right. It's not automatic That's we wish it could be but it's not it's going to take effort It's going to take time and it's going to take energy Right. You're putting them effort. So, um Especially when it comes to human relationship, it is going to You know, we need to invest in order to nurture Relationships, okay, so so let's let's look at the video. I just want us to You know, probably make notes as you watch this video But john c. Maxwell and he's talking about relationships and investing in relationships Let me just play that in a bit just one second five people principles in the investment stage number 17 The gardening principle the gardening principle says all relationships need cultivation Samuel butler said friendship is like money Easier made than kept And the question I must ask myself do I occasionally or continually Cultivate my relationships Let's look at some ways to keep cultivating important relationships What does it mean to cultivate a relationship? Whether it's as a spouse parent or a friend you could start to cultivate a healthy growing relationship by focusing on the following six things number one commitment Researcher dr. Kinsey observed There may be nothing more important in a marriage than a determination That it shall persist With such determination individuals force themselves to adjust and to accept situations which would otherwise seem sufficient grounds for breakup Scott peck wrote a classic work on human psychology in the late 1970s called the road less traveled This book really marked my life Since that time he has Offered ever-increasing insights from his lengthy practice as a psychiatrist and one of his points involves laziness dr. Peck says Laziness is a contributing cause of evil primary cause of psychological illness and the main reason that americans are increasingly failing at human relationships He knows that meaningful relationships require commitment and work Those who are lazy or seldom willing to expend that kind of energy Many marriage counselors would concur that laziness is the major cause for failure of marriages Too often people know what needs to be done to restore relationship, but won't put forth the effort Relational slot Has become an epidemic that we must honestly address Number two to cultivate a relationship communication Number two is communication Just the ability to have a system to communicate one of the things that helped me And my wife Margaret Is early in my marriage what what I would catch myself doing Is I catch myself working all day and when I come home she said well, what happened? It's well nothing Wait, what do you mean nothing? Well, all right. Well something happened, but nothing important Well, you can tell this is not a good thing So many many years ago I'm talking about we've been doing this for oh 25 years at least Is that During our day if something Happens that we just learn about or something fun happens or something funny happens or something that wasn't good happens But but anything that happens that that is kind of noteworthy We take a card out and and we write what it is. We just make a little note to ourselves Now this is huge 25 years ago. I made a commitment That if something happened that was Noteworthy I would not tell anybody about it Until I told Margaret first Because what happens is if you tell a dozen people what happened during the day something By the time you get home, it's old hat The first time you've got all kind of energy isn't that true and oh my goodness Guess what just happened now? You know what's interesting is what that means is not every day, but most days I've got to call her in the middle of the day Because something just happened and I got to tell somebody You follow me and I call some art 60 seconds. Just guess what did you know? Well, you're kidding me. Oh, okay We laugh hang out Now tell us you have no idea What that's done to cultivate our relationship She knows that she's not the last person in the food chain to hear She does the same for me by the way number three friendship Obviously to cultivate a relationship. There needs to be a friendship Samuel Johnson remarked if a man does not make new acquaintances as he advances through life He will soon find himself left alone a man sir Should keep his friendship in constant repair That goes for old friendships as well as new ones I think we sometimes take for granted The people closest to us and as a result we neglect to try being good friends to them first Number four is memories the cultivate relationships you want to create Memories I really work hard on this Because here's what I believe here's what I believe about your children I believe that your children won't remember what you bought them at christmas time 20 years from now Maybe they remember a key bike when they were 10 years old they they remember three but can I tell you something You'll buy them hundreds of things and they'll remember three or four Because people forget things But people don't forget memories The experiences you do together are more important Than anything else And so I determined a long time ago To become a maker of memories And I literally every month work on two or three things that I believe will create memories For maybe somebody I work with perhaps somebody maybe maybe for margaret maybe for my kids But I've always working on memories Because here's what I know If we do something together we experience something together They'll never forget those experiences my kids when we lived in san diego We were away from most of our families which was back east So margaret and I determined when our children were very small that we would go up to a little place about I don't know about 45 minutes from our house called laurence well village and and it would have a little little golf course and swimming pools and a place where you could fish and just all this stuff And we decided that we would we would go and we'd get a little place there a little timeshare there And every year we'd go back to that same place I was the other day I was back and we were going up to los angeles play golf and I was with my son And all steve miller And when we passed the village steve I didn't say anything about it steve said let me tell you something said every time we passed this village Your daughter lives with my wife Goes back into length of telling me All the things that she's done Well, she's not forgotten To to cultivate a relationship create memories number five growth To cultivate a relationship there has to be growth Benjamin franklin said promise may get friends, but it is performance that keeps them When you begin any relationship it is filled with promise But you have to find ways to keep it fresh and strong so that it continues to have potential and not just good memories One way to do that is to grow Together make your growth intentional with your best friend Number six spoiling each other Just practice spoiling each other Or tear out If the first law of friendship is that it has to be cultivated The second law is to be indulgent When the first law has been neglected Just Spoil spoil your friend Do just wonderful things for them People principle number 18 People principle number 18 is the 101 percent principle The 101 percent principle says Find the 1 percent that we agree on and give it 100 percent of our effort Daryl Zanuck says If two men on the same job agree all the time then one is useless If they disagree all the time Then both are useless And the question I must ask myself is can I find common ground? And will I give it 100 percent of my effort? Now when do I practice this 101 percent principle? It is an incredible tool in anyone's relational toolbox. However, it's not something that can be pulled out and used all the time I say that because this principle takes a big commitment of time energy and thinking Therefore before practicing this principle you need to ask yourself some questions I'm I know that I'm a little vulnerable when I start helping you ask these questions But but this principle takes such time and effort you have to ask these questions Number one is the person worth the commitment every person Has great worth But they don't all have the same relational worth to you So you have to ask yourself Where do I use this 101 percent principle? Where do I find that one percent we agree on and give it a hundred percent of my effort because there's a lot of things We're disagreeing on well, I get family Inner circle people But you can't give 100 commitment To one percent you agree on with everybody. So you have to kind of evaluate. Who do I who do I do this with? Number two is the situation worth the commitment A lot of situations you don't have to do this 101 percent principle all because it's just going to pass It's just here. It's going to pass whether you give it a commitment or not Number three is the issue worth the commitment. What is the issue? Is the issue worth you giving a hundred percent of your commitment and number four is the return worth the commitment So let's talk about this 101 percent return Practicing the 101 percent principle can benefit you in many ways here six one It allows you to build a foundation for change Why very simple Change always begins on common ground just recently I was In washington dc And I was spending a day with the cia they they're going through a lot of changes And so they said john we'd like to have you meet with 14 top leaders and have a long lunch But then we would like you to talk to address about five or six hundred of our people That are kind of leading departments about all the changes we're going through and and how leaders view change and how they handle change And so it was a wonderful wonderful time But what I shared with them that day I shared with you When change must occur There's a temptation for us to look at differences Well, if I change this is going to be different and this will be different and then and what happens is differences tend to separate us And what we do is when we want to see change accomplished the first thing we want to do is we want to find common ground What do we all agree on? Let's start there Let's start on on something that we can you know Let's find the one percent we agree on and let's give it a hundred percent of our effort That's that that's the beginning of a successful change a lot of times change ever occurs because we find the one percent we disagree on And we give it a hundred percent of our effort number two It prevents unnecessary conflict This one hundred one percent principle really eliminates a lot of conflict general grant said There never was a time in my opinion Some way could not be found to prevent the drawing of a sword number three It reduces the odds of making enemy Emerson observed He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare While he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere number four It keeps something of value that could have been lost When you practice this one hundred one percent principle You really get to keep those things that you value and those people you value in the paragraph in your notes How many potentially rewarding relationships have you missed? Because you focused on the differences instead of the common ground How many potential friends have slipped through your fingers? How many productive business associations have been forfeited former new york yankees manager joe mccartney observed Any manager who can't get along with a 400 hitter is crazy number five It helps you to feel good about your part of the relationship The reason it helps you and i feel good about our part of the relationship is because we know we're doing our Very best i'm right now personally going through a An issue in a relationship that is extremely difficult pretty much I've got bad news for somebody that i care a lot about And the only thing that gives me strength in this whole process the only thing that gives me Peace in this process is i know without question that i've given this effort 100 percent I mean i have not Slided it in any way i've i've done my very best to make it work now what i'm saying is When you have done your very best to make it work, it doesn't always work. Isn't that true? We've all come up to the place where a hundred percent Wasn't enough when i walk away from a situation that doesn't work out good And i know with integrity that i've given it my best shot and that my motives have been right and my effort has been Total disappointed yes But not devalued Because i gave that individual the very best that i could number six One more thing about the 100 percent principle It enables you to make the best of difficult situations The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything they just make The best of everything Adopting the 101 principle makes the best of every relational opportunity and no one can be expected To do more than that people principle number 19 the patience principle The patience principle says The journey with others is slower Than the journey alone or the friendship of two the patience of one Is necessary And the question that i must ask myself is do i Take others with me even when it's inconvenient By the way When i when i wrote this relationship book i can tell you Sometimes when people look at an author they think that the author writes those things which he or she Really is good at When i write I have to have about four or five timeouts Kind of like excuse me i'm writing this because i know it's true Not because i'm good at this In fact what i wrote the 21 air fuelable laws of leadership six of the 21 laws i don't do well at all In fact i would rate myself average or lower than average six of them In fact that's one of the reasons why i know i have to have a team around me. Are you with me? Because i'm not good at them in fact if you think you're good at all of them You need a therapist around you you need a real friend that cares for you Because you're in deep ways Well, it's also true about these relationship rules and this one here this patience principle this whole issue of Of taking people on the drink you have to understand i i flunk this Okay, i'm not a patient person When i was in school what i hated more than anything else about school was review day Where the teacher would say now tomorrow We're going to review our notes for the last six weeks because we're getting ready for a big test And we'll review the notes so we can get ready for the test and i'd raise my hand and say do i have to come She'd say of course you have to come Why wouldn't you come Because i took notes the first time Excuse me If i got it Do i have to come And they always made me come And i hated it I'd say here i am sitting in the classroom Did my stuff on the front end Now i'll wait for everybody on the back end Hit the ball and drag charlie hit the ball and drag charlie hit the ball and drag charlie after a while Don't you just want to hit charlie? This has been a hard one for me to learn One of my leadership lessons is i learned about what leadership is is i learned that leaders aren't the first To cross the finish line They may be the fastest But they reduce their speed So everybody else can cross the finish line with them What leaders do and what leaders know is That the very fact that you're a leader is that you bring people with you That's where the patience principle comes in in your notes I constantly cast vision for the people of my organization And then i left them behind not a good thing for a leader I had to learn to connect with people and develop patience These are two critical steps in relationship building Patience without connection and the relationship lacks energy Connection without patience and the relationship lacks potential Connection with patience The relationship has energy And potential And if you want relationships to last You need both energy And potential So how do you become more patient in relationships number one? Prioritize patience as a virtue worthy of developing In fact Aristotle said The greatest virtues are those which are most useful to other persons Nothing is more useful to other persons than patience Number two understand that it takes time to build good relationships Number three Practice the exchange principle. We've already talked about that instead of putting others in their place. What do we say? Put yourself in their place to develop patience You need to appreciate other people How they think and be sensitive to how they feel every person thinks His problems are the biggest his jokes are the funniest His prayers should get spatial attention His situation is different His victories are the most exemplary And his faults Should be overlooked That's just how we are number four realize that people have and Create problems When it comes to people There are good news and there's bad news The good news is that some people in your life are going to be the source of your greatest joy And the bad news is that those that those same people may be the cause of your greatest problem That's true not only at home, but also at work and the higher you climb in leadership The more difficult the problems The findings of leadership experts Warren Venice and Bert Nannis bear this out. They state What we have found is that the higher the rank the more interpersonal And human the undertaking our top executives spend roughly 90 percent of their time with others And virtually the same amount of time concerned with the messiness of people problems Sounds familiar doesn't it? number five Identify areas where people need patience with you Oh my goodness Now this has helped me a lot. I'll pass this on to you because it's amusing to me, but it's really helped me a lot Because I have a problem with patience with others One of the things I have done is I have gone to people who love me the most My inner circle And I've asked them To give me ways that they have to be patient With me It's very embarrassing First of all, they always randomly say oh, yeah, we'll be glad to do that that in itself Tells a lot In fact, what really bothers me is when they say You need it in five minutes in other words They're not grappling With ways to think of how they have to be patient with me They've got a list already In fact the other day I asked Linda for this lesson. I said Linda.  You run my whole life What what areas do you have to be patient with me? She just started rattling them off. I said, oh, that's a fast Shouldn't we think about some of these? I think about it She she said here's just part of her list I am constantly losing my glasses My cell phones my pins And then she probably just says John you lose everything If you've had it You've lost it If you find it You'll lose it again. I have probably 30 pair of glasses I have them everywhere My answer to losing glasses is put them everywhere So when you come through my house, you'll you go through my house Well market price will pick them up today because companies come and that's always disgusting too because then I can't find them again But if she if she just leaves them where they should be You'll count a dozen 15 pair yourself Because it's just kind of like if you lose them then don't carry them Just wherever you sit have some Then she I mean she goes I mean this list doesn't I'm she just she said john anytime we're discussing planning You want lots of options That's very true I like options. You don't know anybody likes options as much as me So when you say we're going to do it this way I will say well, are there seven other ways that we could do this too because you just never know when you need an option You realize how much time it takes for her to give me all the options I want in life.  Well, I do that You just never know where opportunity is going to be All of a sudden opportunities over there. So you got to go over there I over schedule myself and as a result projects take longer than the time I lot it I hate to say no. Oh my goodness This morning I had a request from some university and I put yes and then I scratched out and said well, no Then I wrote a note and said well, maybe And I hand it to her Take care of that. Take care of that Another one I she said I want her to be to be able to call her 24 hours a day seven days a week And that's part of the requirement. I said they'd be have the cell phone on 24 seven I stopped right now pushed one button. She'd answer. Okay. It takes to bed with her. That's the old time I try not to awaken her much But you just never know now This list can go on and When I looked at that I thought I'm a terrible person But you know what that helps me do helps me be patient with the rest of my people Because what I'm really realizing is I have a bunch of idiosyncrasies and my team has to put up with those all the time number six Recognize that all relationships have give-ups give-ins And give and takes That's a fact If you're in a relationship, you're going to have to give up some things You're going to have to give in on some things and you're going to certainly have to do the give and take all Okay. Thank you. I think that was uh That was good on patience, especially as he's writing down I think that's a good way to find out How others need to be patient with us and then we can Extend the same thing to others on our team. Okay, so just um this goes on to say that You know that relationship takes time relationship takes effort And uh, it's our responsibility to nurture relationships Yes, this is a very important aspect of it because we can be uh, really focused on Uh, I mean, it's an important area that we I mean in the sense that we need to focus on goals we need to focus on Accomplishing goals, uh, because that is you know, that is something very very important. Uh, we need to focus on on the vision and everything and We need to focus on sharpening our skills Etc that will you know, take us there and and put in efforts to do that Um, but this is a very important area because in in all that we are doing it involves people and uh, then you know You know, you're not making that journey alone, but all of us are making that journey, uh, you know as as a body and in professional setups in family in You know ministry Set up so where we interact with people where we leave people and work with people, right? So these are some important things. Okay, we'll stop here And then we'll we'll continue next week. Okay. God bless. Have a great weekend. Uh, we'll catch up next week. Bye. Bye Thank you, pastor. God bless you. Thank you. Thank you, pastor. Thank you Bye I say not less


Yeah, I'm just kidding. This is a good one. You're 20. Sure, I'll give you 20. That's true. You're 20. You're 20. You're 23. You're 19. Do you pay some more? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.   Very much so! I'll be back in talk with you in about a minute or two. You'll all like it. It's a good one. I'll be available the next time. Do you want my track or something?