he president, actually does that job, but there are other major sources of economic information like the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Commerce Department. So, so it's unclear to me where, you know, even what the strategic alternatives are, but this is a fascinating discussion I guess is what I'd say. And welcome our two guests. One, Declare Barreto from the University of Concerned Concerned, the Union Concerned Scientists, and Anne Marie Chichilly from Northern Arizona University and the Institute for Tribal Environmental Protected Professionals. Thank you both for talking with us this afternoon. Juan and then Anne Marie will both address questions of historically underrepresented groups and their potential participation, actual and potential participation. The processes of the national climate assessment. As you both know, underrepresented groups have been, have been a high priority for the national climate assessment and particular the national fifth assessment which was just released a few months ago. But this remains a really difficult area of engagement, partly because the national climate assessment contains and is built on a foundation of physical science that is not accessible to a lot of people including people in underrepresented groups. Juan, would you start and we'll hear from you for about 15 minutes and then Anne Marie and then we'll have some questions and answers. Hi, thank you. You please put up my slides. Thank you. Hi, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for you and Nathan for inviting me. My name is Juan de Clair Barreto. I'm a bilingual senior social scientists with the climate and energy program is bilingual senior social scientists for climate vulnerability. In the climate and energy program at the University of Concerned Scientists. UCS is a scientific national advocacy group focused on addressing the climate crisis in an equitable ways and all other sorts of environmental issues that multiple communities face. I'm happy to be here today. I think a UCS provides or a link between the science that comes from the national climate assessment and other scientific reports and data on on the climate crisis and how that can be communicated and put to use in especially for and by vulnerable communities. I'll talk a little bit about how we use a national climate assessment. I'll talk a little bit about what sort of climate data sources we use what sort of frequent requests we get in the course of doing our work and so on. Can you next slide please. All right. So how do we use the national climate assessment we use it in various ways we get very excited when it's going to be released. In February, I believe that we receive embargo versions. And we use it to communicate. The state of the climate to the general public to policy makers to impact the communities we do all of this work in English and Spanish, even though you don't there's no such examples here. We inform the general public and message around the need for urgent action on climate. We use it to combat this information and misinformation from climate change deniers as part of also far accountability campaign to hold fossil fuel companies in other climate deniers and enables enable the climate crisis accountable for their for their actions and their role in the climate crisis. And we use it also to provide context on equitable impacts and the need for policy makers to equitably address the climate crisis. We integrated also into some of our work on the on your bottom left side there. That's our other heat work from 2019 where we looked at the frequency of the heat of the heat index our different thresholds under a number of climate scenarios we aggregated our results to the national climate assessment I think nca for regions. So we see ourselves, I've been thinking of ourselves as sort of a power user for the national climate assessment from the more general sort of like explainer pages such as those sort of evergreen pages that we that we post to deep dives on the data on the specific chapters on what it means for for the state of climate and the different sectors at the nca covers. So it's a good idea to drive our social media engagement as well. Next slide please. Some of the sources that we rely on for climate information and data obviously the national climate assessment at the IPCC assessment reports. Also, we pay attention to, for example, know us hurricane season outlook. We pay attention to those yellow dots on on the national hurricane center tracking website we start, you know, forming of the coast of Africa makes us a little bit anxious. And we pay attention to these to these seasonal outlooks also for for drought, or for much of our work. We pay attention to the weather dot gov where the National Weather Service alerts are communicated to the public. So to drive on the bottom right hand side, we use to drive our messaging on what we call danger season, which is the period between May and October where climate change is making extreme weather more dangerous who we use. We use the National Weather Service data to track heat, fire weather alerts as well as floods and storm alerts during during that period on a public facing websites that keep they track daily of these alerts and help us drive our messaging along, not just climate but what it means for for example the energy grid. We also use it downscale models from a general circulation models to incorporate into our into our research. And, and also the state level summaries from the National Climate Assessment are very useful for our work when we wish to contextualize regional or state climate conditions for blocks and other messaging of research that we're conducting. And we like these sources because these are credible sources that are straightforward to communicate to the public about the need for climate action and using the best and laser science. Next slide please. So the key gaps that we see are somewhat related to a National Climate Assessment so I'm not so much broader sort of concerns about I think I'm then earlier from your from USGCR under the USGCRP section. I mean, it's asked for a lot for look very often asked for localized impacts data and that that is a little bit beyond what the National Climate Assessment can do. And we certainly understand that there are some limitations right on the spatial scale the spatial distribution of the climate data that I've made available to the public. And we see that that's an area that which could be improved by cooperation between the folks who developed the National Climate Assessment the research that go the researchers that produce the research that goes into that, and also scientific nonprofits such as our communities. We also see and these are also other sort of common issues you know the dynamics of cascading impacts across different sectors and how the impact communities are hard to quantify when you look at how climate impacts on just housing but the availability of of access to, for example, health care services, housing jobs, transportation and so on, at a small scale those are difficult to quantify. But the impacts of inequitable policies are hard to assess and and I'm pointing to a to an exception that obviously it's not again not exactly related to the NCA but a study that has received a lot of coverage in terms of how the historical basis policy redlining and impact on both this study is on surface temperatures, showing that the neighborhoods that were redlined that were in the, in the, in the more hazardous categories which is called for having more people of color living in them are considerably harder than other neighborhoods and this is similar story that has done the same thing with particular matter and other in similar pollutants, and I can I put this here as an example because this is a very clear example very unique example of a policy that was very ill form racist, and that happened a long time ago but still has very measurable and clear impacts and that is not so this is very unique, you know this is not very easy to find, and to be able to quantify the long lasting impact on the spatial that has been printed on the neighborhoods of such a policy and this is the kind of thing that I as a researcher would like to see, to be able to see more of to be able to track over time or to quantify with a high degree of spatial and temporal specific impacts that a policy. In this case, a sort of the judo policy, I'm sorry, the factor policy to sort of speak because that policy itself was not it wasn't codified as law it was codified as a practice of the real estate industry and the real estate banking industry as well, but still have an issues impact that's there. Some of some common requests that we get related to climate information. We get a lot of questions asked about how to turn the abundance of data out there into useful action of information for communities and for policymakers, we have used some of the data sources that I that I mentioned to develop to communicate to the public, how different communities are being impacted by climate augmented extreme weather events such as fire weather or the conditions for for for wildfires to develop floating extreme heat in cities. Also how extremely impacting outdoor workers, including construction workers delivery services first responders. And so on, and also how specific people in places or sectors of the economy such as national park services parks are being impacted by extreme heat or workers at airports for example, and many of the end and in the central and see how the maps that we have developed showing the frequency of multiple threats that occurs simultaneously where the darkest colors in that map show counties that have had more than more than one type of these extreme types of alerts extreme weather alerts that we talked about extreme heat floods storms and and fire weather. And this, this helps us communicate to the public in response to to request that we get sometimes because we do work with environmental justice and climate justice communities that asks us for requests or other sort of partners that represent folks in the space, the farm worker space, both nationally and specific communities and in specific places in the US and the territories that are facing different climate impacts. So, it's a little bit of a whirlwind toward through some of the ways in which we use the national climate assessment and also other sources of climate data and I hope that this is the start of a conversation where you see us to help shape and frame some of these issues and desires that folks that came before me were been asking about and thinking through how to better engage communities how to strengthen the national climate assessment both in the process and the final product. And next slide. Oh, I forgot to say one thing. There was a guiding question about what were the voices that are missing from the conversation and some folks have already alluded to this but I'll be remiss if I didn't. If I didn't say that we need to have communities that are typically underrepresented. So these pictures are examples of community based organizations that with the UCS works with that are creating their own engagements with their own experts community experts both not necessarily people with PhDs and master's degrees and advanced degrees but community experts folks who know and understand environmental histories the climate histories of their communities, the social and demographic needs of their communities and are engaging with other experts technical experts policymakers technocrats. And other experts in different areas such as those represented here to develop solutions to assess the state of their own environmental and climate conditions to then propose solutions that center community needs and I am happy to see the NCA integration of sort of case studies and vignettes of communities and impacts, but there's always more than can be done to bring these key voices into the conversation. Next slide please. And I will stop there. Thank you very much. Juan, before I turn to Ann Marie, let me ask you whether you know Union of Concerned Scientists has the capacity to reach out to still more of the community groups you showed on the last on your last slide. I would say so. We see that as part of our existing commitments and ongoing commitments to a to to to developing equitable policies and with all engagement around the climate crisis. And so, yes, that is something that is part of the work that we do and we would really like to continue to be that sort of interface. To expand our role in that sort of interface to be able to clearly communicate with communities and with the efforts around the NCA to improve it. Great, thank you. Good afternoon and I will share my screen at this time. Well, good afternoon. I am Ann Marie Chichilly, and I am coming to you from Flagstaff, Arizona. This is a picture of our Native American Cultural Center at Northern Arizona University. And just to acknowledge the land that I'm on, I'm on land, homeland, sacred to 13 tribes in this region and Flagstaff region, including my own. And I am DeMeh enrolled with the Navajo Nation. And I'm currently the Vice President of Native American Initiatives at NAU. And I was also a Southwest chapter author. So, one thing I wanted to talk about was the and the National Climate Assessment is the obvious thing that I don't know very well it's obvious to me and the folks that I work with is that number 16 chapter 16 is the only chapter specifically for an ethnic group or a race, and that's indigenous peoples. And for ever since NCA one we've been, I think the same type of language has been used which is indigenous peoples or tribal nation members have been are disproportionately impacted by climate because of our subsistence lifestyle, and because of our socioeconomic history, not only our history but our socioeconomic impacts to that. So I just wanted to really highlight that and highlight how important it is that since we're in the NCA five that our voices are heard in us in from our point of view. So what I did is I met with several of the indigenous authors for the NCA five and I just want to go through some of their statements. When you're considering and I believe the speaker reforming spoke about this what was the number of indigenous black brown authors compared to previous years and the percentage of those in early career stages. To what degree were these authors from these groups that were first timers in the NCA. I was the first timer this year and to be honest my experience was very difficult. I'll get into just how, how feeling like my comments weren't really considered important because it wasn't coming from a scientific background. And so those were some of my feelings. When I was participating. The second one says the activities occurred internally, or what activities occurred internally within NCA to promote and support the success of the people of color authors. If you go into this in further recommendations is there should be, if there's a first timer and maybe not just for all first timer authors to really have a training session before you jump into NCA by, because if you're not comfortable or have the experience of being an author in high level documents. Sometimes you will get lost. So, third, what degree of relevance does NCA have to decision makers from diverse, this indigenous black brown communities that is, are the results targeted to be eligible to buy them, or are they results mainly intended to be to the generic audience. This is a huge one. I oversee tribal consultation at Northern Arizona University. And one of the things I often talk to about with all of the folks who are developing proposals is that the tribal community or the community intended to be served to understand completely what is, what is the results and what are the benefits to them, and what are the risks to them. So those are some of the things from some of the authors that I came and I'll talk a little bit more about more later. My big question and I always ask this and I've been asking this since NCA three, if you take the chapters and put them into this grid. You'll see that indigenous people is this chapter 16. One of the questions I want to research is what is the federal sustained funding for each of these chapters from the federal government. Because I can tell you right now, the indigenous people's community has 574 tribes. And last summer we got a big boost from President Biden, we're very thankful 120 million. But if you divide it by 574 you get down to 200,000. Now, all of us who are working with budgets know what 200,000 can and cannot buy when it comes to climate change mitigation. So my question to the NCA five is, and this goes back to, is it legible is it are people understanding the benefits of participating in NCA by. And that would be one of them would be what what is the leverage that comes, the financial leverage that comes from being a part of this chapter and how is it. What is the most disproportionately impacted. What is the federal sustained funding for sovereign nations that would be my question. If you look at the sustain if you look at the indigenous chapter with those in indigenous people's chapter. The third key message I just wanted to highlight and that's indigenous people's lead numerous actions that respond to climate change. Indigenous led organizations initiatives and movements have demonstrated diverse strategies for climate adaptation and mitigation that are guided and this is the key word to keywords by indigenous knowledge and values in pursuit of indigenous rights. Now, I don't know how many of you understand what indigenous knowledge is, but it's a huge movement right now, not only in Indian country, not only in the United States but globally. Indigenous knowledge is has come into scene probably in 2014, and has been defined happily, we'll refer you to some readings but it's a very big movement right now and understanding the difference between Western science and indigenous knowledge. When I came when I sat on the first federal advisory committee, which was the advisory committee on climate change and natural resource science under Sally jewel this is before they're under I think as Obama. One of the things we did was we developed what's called the guidance for use of traditional knowledges and climate change initiatives, and we set that policy and right around 2015. The federal agencies began to understand that at the time you can no longer reject or exclude grant proposals that are coming from tribes that you want to use traditional knowledges, as opposed to indigenous or Western science and it does not have to be validated by Western science in order to be considered science. So that's one of the things I wanted to talk about today. This is another author, this is one author who worked in the human health chapter she said I was proud to be a part of the group of people who worked in various areas related to human health. As a dinner woman or Navajo woman I felt comfortable enough to share about the disproportionate impacts that tribal nations face every day most tribes live in rural underserved areas where people and the environment lack the infrastructure to adequately and quickly address health concerns. My participation in writing of the chapter and the team discussions led me to wonder how seriously my co authors considered my perspectives and knowledge. When my fellow co authors consider or even remember tribal communities and the lack of resources and funding that readily assist people in time of need. I hope that other chapters would follow the actions of the lead author for the human health chapter and consider the meaningful participation inclusion inclusion of indigenous scholars, experts and knowledge holders as part of their future chapters. Additionally, there should be some more training or explanation of how graphics are created, especially for new authors. This process was rushed and I did not adequately. I did not feel adequately prepared to participate in this creation. So there are several things to glean from this comment and that was the inclusion I think the community voices. And here she says it in her third paragraph inclusion of indigenous scholars, experts and knowledge holders. So experts and knowledge holders are unique term under indigenous knowledges they may be considered medicine people, elders and even youth. So I don't see that very much in in CA five are the elders that come from our communities or the youth voice that comes from our communities. And then also other communities like to spirit or the LGBT community, the disabled community, the end of veterans, some of those communities as well. So this is one comment as well I wanted to share. I think that indigenous traditional ecological knowledges also known as TK traditional knowledges this way, all four terms are put into one award. And in 2021 President Biden issued an executive order that basically said that the federal agency is now going to include indigenous knowledges and ensure that federal agencies conduct regular meaningful and robust consultation with tribal officials in the development of federal research policies and decisions, especially decisions that may affect tribal nations and the people they was represent. So since 2021, the federal we they went through public comments, and then now they're going they went through their first drafts and now all the federal agencies are supposed to have their own guidance and training programs.  And it was guided by these six indigenous experts in the field, and we, I don't know how well we're published right now but this is the publication of the procedures of inclusion and application of indigenous knowledges and inactivities of the department handbook, and then there's a training manual with it. So I just want to say as in CA five one of the things I really wanted to include was just how we incorporate and talk about indigenous knowledges and western science. So this is the Institute for tribal environmental professionals I write that down because I used to oversee them I still oversee them in my division but I'm no longer director. They put out what's called the status of tribes and climate change report. It's by 90 authors who are considered tribal experts. And more important, more, I think, not more importantly but just including 34 tribal narratives so if you want the perspective of what's happening in tribal nations. There are 34 narratives that you can go to and say, Oh, this is their concern. This is their recommendations and this is how they want to solve issues around climate change. It's basically to hear the tribal voices first, and the solutions. It's been shared with the USA. We had a hearing on it at the US Senate, and then also the IPCC also quoted from it. And the way this, this particular report came about was an NCA for, and this is another issue that happens a lot in NCA for that team did not have citable information about indigenous issues. So they redrafted NCA, the stack report to fill in the gaps of those that we could not cite from so this is a fully peer reviewed document. And so NCA by now quotes heavily from NCA from this stack report. So that's another thing you want to consider when you're developing the NCA NCA is the amount of pressure but just importance put on citable material. I know when I was developing my research, if it wasn't highly highly cited it was not considered good enough to put in the document and you have to remember, we're at the very cusp in Indian country of developing our own citable material. So that's what I have today I really appreciate the time and opportunity to work with your group again, the Institute for tribal environmental professionals, they serve all 574 tribes and in the last 30 years they served 95% of them so really really good group to work with and highly recommend. Thank you for your time if you have. Thank you so much Ann Marie. Okay, questions and discussion please. And I'll watch for our members who are on zoom only. Thank you for that presentation. I had a quick question for you this comes from. I've spent being an archaeologist and anthropologist rather than a climate change planner necessarily, but who controls the dissemination of itech. So in the past, when anthropologists have gone out to tribes, there has been a lot of contested interaction around the exchange of information and the exchange of other things. A lot of the contested interaction has been around the who has the authority to share knowledge, who has the authority to speak to what knowledge. I also know that working at the Albuquerque district there's a lot of conflict among in between tribes of what knowledge can be shared that impedes water resources planning on a broader scale. So can you speak to how. Who has who how authority is vested in individual people to speak on climate change issues. Thank you. That's a great question. Thank you.  What I recommend is to look East tribe has a institutional review board that you would go through if you're going to be publishing and researching on tribal lands right the Navajo nation is probably the heart one of the largest I would say institutional review board. So this is for your researchers so if you're going to go and publish or do any research in human research especially well both but definitely look up each tribal nations and some of them you just go through their typical office that tribal preservation historic office, but it really depends on what each tribe wants. Now when it comes to developing proposals and saying. So, free and prior and form. This is where I say the guidance, the guidance for you so traditional and ecological traditional ecological knowledges comes in if you Google that. You will find eight steps into how we developed who you should work with. How you should work with them. So each nation has multiple knowledge holders. So that's a big portion of it. And say you are looking at so say for in the Navajo nation. And there are different levels of sacredness if you will. So one medicine person may do speak to you and however the information that you glean from that person that person must understand what it's how it's going to be used. If it's going to be published. Do they pay for it. Do they understand it's going to go into public domain. And more importantly, does that tribe understand that this knowledge holder has now released that information. So I would work very carefully not only with your knowledge holder but also your tribal council to make sure a courtesy letter goes to them and say, Hey, we're interviewing this individual and and then their tribe will then speak. And it comes back to the tribal the leadership. Okay, I wanted to come back to one and and have both one and and and re react to this it's the what you're telling us I think is that the, the participation of underrepresented groups, via groups like the environmental professionals organization and the Union concerned scientists is rising so it's a very dynamic situation so just between the four years that passed between one national climate assessment and the next that there's been quite noticeable change so First of all, is that impression correct that that's changing quite rapidly. And then if it is correct, where should NCA six aim in order to keep up with the changing level of participation and mobilization of these underrepresented groups. One, I might start with you. Thank you. Well, I, I don't have hard numbers to quantify that what I would say that, you know, anecdotally from my own perspective, there has been an increase in the interest and the resources dedicated or demanded to vulnerable communities or communities, you know, and the front lines of climate change to be engaged to be involved to the demanding a seat at the table, and not coming only as consumers of the information that's been produced but also as active producers of that knowledge and more importantly, off the recommendations and the policies that will come out from that so I then then then to answer your, your second question then I think then future efforts of the NCA should take that into account should be more in more open spaces and bacon more time and more resources to foster that engagement in a meaningful way that leads to meaningful engagement with environmental justice climate justice communities other vulnerable communities that have, as I said earlier, their community expertise that maybe ancestral and maybe historical and maybe environmental in indigenous in the way that that I'm already has been talking about that that are part of, of a solution that would strengthen the NCA and the ability I raise this question because in thinking about evaluation, we're dealing with a moving baseline that the expectations of performance in NCA five are one thing but that presumably the expectations for NCA six would be different in some way or another we want to get more get more texture on that and Marie, before we go to that part of the discussion would you comment on whether things are changing rapidly. Yes, they are. I would see there's more in this chapter I would agree with that. One thing I would say is I would love to see an indigenous person in each of the, the chapters, if not, if not that then, or someone from that community and underrepresented community member in each of the chapters, just because that voice is so important to hear from, because you're not coming there, most likely, and, and I don't know what the qualifications are for, I'm thinking the chapter leads select their committees, but that should be part of that curriculum, the underlying curriculum development is having an underrepresented community member in that and they don't, again, they don't have to have a PhD, they should just have to know about that, that topic area from their own perspective. And that's circling back really to Ariane's question about legitimacy of voices. Because I think that what is distinct about the tribal communities is the claim now accepted by the federal government. The tribal communities have access to a different mode of knowing indigenous knowledges that certified and, and made reliable in a different way than say peer reviewed publications, and, and securing degrees from educational institutions, that function in, in what's usually called Western science and so the question of how you, how you determine the sort of the qualifications of people in other underrepresented populations. I think it's still an open one and it's not, it's not clear to me, you know, how to deal with that.  Yes, I actually want to go ahead. I would recommend speaking with community members and asking for their expert. That's what I mean because, like in the indigenous community, we all know who the experts are. So we would then recommend if you in CAI, in CA, would ask these community groups, they would definitely know who the, the leaders are. Thanks Kathy. Yeah, so as a follow up on that, Emory, I wanted to ask you so many of your comments relate to having greater participation by tribal members in the production of the NCA. So as others, for example. We're charged with looking at designing a strategy for evaluating the outputs. So I was wanted to ask you what your thoughts would be on how presumably not having those voice, not having those people participating in the production of the product makes the product less useful. And so I guess the question is how can we get at the ways in which it is not as useful as it could or should be, you know, in some sense by looking at the product as opposed to by looking at the inputs to the product. So what are your thoughts on how for us as a committee how we might try to make sure that we somehow think about ways to evaluate the what's missing so that we can incorporate that into our evaluation strategy. On these slides I put a, I would say the economic part, because in order to get more assistance to these communities that don't have power, don't have identity or they they're not seeing is to listen to them and ask them what they need. So we've done that in the stock report the state of tribes and climate change report. And we base that off to the NCA five other communities would do that, because they're using, because if, then we then look at that chart and say, Okay, how much does the coasts, how much does the federal put into the coasts, how much is it put into oceans, how much is it put into agriculture, subsidized through federal agencies, if we could have that research, and then how much I put into the Hawaiian and US affiliated tribal islands, how much I put into indigenous you would start seeing the equitable standards that are coming out and whether that input so tribes put in information, hoping that they will be seen, get more resources, have more assistance contributed to them, that is why they're, they're in the middle of being at the frontline in Alaska where there's almost 200 Alaska native villages, they're on the front lines, but they're still participating. It's like putting out a fire, and then also participating saying, How are we going to put out the fire. Fire changes are so rapid out there, that it's really hard to get them involved with the NCA five in any of the climate things because they're at the front lines, day in and day out trying to survive, and then participate and say, How are we going to survive in five years when today's a hard day so that I would say the output should be information that would help them leverage for more resources, more power, more visibility. Juan, go ahead. I would like to reinforce something that Mary said earlier about the need for in for better and more indigenous representation in the chapter site. Like she pointed out it's a good thing that there's a chapter dedicated to to to indigenous people in the NCA, but that's not sufficient because most of those sort of chapters are going to have impacts that the things that the topics in those chapters are going to also be issues. You know, they're going to be geographic locations or specific climate impacts or sector impacts that are impacting indigenous communities. And, and that they in that the inclusion of indigenous authors that do not necessarily need to be scientists, right. As a summary said, should be a key part then of making sure that we can understand then holistically how all these climate impacts are all these time and hazards are impacting indigenous communities. That that that inclusion of that process and it will need to be open and we will need to have an expansive definition of what an expert is. That is not just somebody with a Western, you know, PhD education. And one thing that I really wanted to contribute to this conversation today is that because I will just say because indigenous peoples for the last 500 years have been on the struggle, right, our resilience, mentally, spiritually, we have we have some serious scars that we can go through new things. So the mental health part is a big part of what we're contributing now and I'm seeing it in universities across the board, the students that are coming up and starting to acknowledge climate and start to think about it, the depression rate, the suicide rate, all of those issues that are not talked about other than scientifically are what is a big, a big measure of what indigenous peoples bring, because for 500 years we've gone through some pretty harsh federal policies. And so bringing that resilience mentally and spiritually is probably one thing that when you bring it into a conversation with scientists. A lot of times this they'll listen for a second and they'll be okay that doesn't doesn't have a metric that doesn't have that you can't can't quantify that. But it's a huge component of what we're going to be dealing with in the next five to 10 years with this new generation coming in. So, and we let and one let me come back to Kathy secrets and question about how we might try to get at this because our task is to is to suggest a strategy for evaluation for the US GCRP to apply you know to so that they can think about how to apply how to evaluate the NCA five just concluded. And one of the less one of the points it seems to me that I'm getting is that underrepresented people in general and indigenous people in particular hold a body of knowledge and experience that is poorly recorded or under recorded in the record. And how to get how to quantify that I think is a little difficult, you know, it's that's that's not a trivial task, but there are, you know, there is a literature that that that gets at that, as well as you know partly narratives, of but it's the skew in the body of scientific understanding that that results from the fact that this part of human experience is not recorded in the same way as for other groups of people. So that's, that's something that the that the NCA should take into account in some fashion or other. One way they could do that is to include members of these underrepresented communities in the formulation of the questions that they try to answer. And they should then they can evaluate whether they did that a good job of that in NCA five. Okay. The skew in a body of knowledge in turn, means that the results the outputs of the NCA may miss the point of of addressing the needs of various people so you can. And Murray mentioned the coastal Alaskan communities that are grappling with rapid melting of permafrost. That's a problem that scientists recognize already and the and the need to relocate communities and so forth is already on the table. And that's that's not a question where the where the scientific knowledge the province of the NCA is in question. You know, you might ask, well, do they cover the, can they predict the areas of collapse accurately enough and do they deliver the information of those communities in a timely fashion. But, but that's not a whether that's happening or not is not a matter of dispute. That's not a scientific question. So, the question is so where I think the NCA might might benefit from is for knowledge from these underrepresented communities about other things that are being missed, because the knowledge base is is distorted in this fashion. Those are ways I think that that I'm just trying to play out really to brainstorm based on what Kathy asked you about how we how we carry this kind of theme forward. One, I would like to give you an example. I want to try a little example, obviously, in the case of Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria into in 2016 2017. The narratives around resilience are very much tied to place to the places where people are to remaining in place to improving the spatial resolution and reach of the science to understand what parts of what FEMA of communities says are going to be are are in the flood zone. Well, anecdotally, we know in the communities that some don't. So there may be some in situ relocation. It's an example, right, that that that maps into what anthropology is another person other social scientists call social capital, you know, staying in place, relying on the extended family networks, you know, to build that resilience, the love and historical ancestral attachment to the place which is which is not just an emotional attachment it's a it's a very grounded attachment that has some real material benefits and an intergenerational benefits. And, but it maps into these other devices that we understand in the social and other sciences as part of that but it transcends that. And that has to be integrated that has to be known that has that has to be brought into understanding what otherwise could be construed as on scientific or even anti scientific opinions or attitudes towards what the is going to be about sea level rise right you know it's also politics of resistance of folks who have been like they did like the ingenious stripes that Mary's talking about who have lived with such bad and during such terrible and during and racist conditions and oppression conditions for so long that they are actively resisting what the federal government is saying you just need to get out of here and leave. And so we're resisting that in trying to build that climate resilience in place. If there's very little time to unpack that that's that's very rich and in deep, but that is what's coming out from the narratives that that defaults that you know works with, without that are it's not just limited to us Caribbean places but other places as well, where matters of climate resilience are deeply tied into the networks and community tissue that people are resisting the, the the pull to break those apart. Yes. Yeah, this also makes me think it was so fascinating to hear you and I'm right. I think about the indigenous knowledge as a set of data inputs, even though that's not quite what it is in some cases but it, my mind goes to how all of those inputs scientific and otherwise get coordinated as they feed into the processing of each chapter by the chapter committees. And that's certainly a challenge in its own right just getting data sets nationally and internationally and having that at a very technical level thinking about that coordination. My question is, we can, I hear it sort of being almost. Well, my question is, how can the indigenous communities and community that may come to the table for the NCA on a regular basis and be part of that. I think each court discussion has their been on that side, in terms of coordinating to be ready to participate in the NCA specifically because I think there's messaging associated with that there's the knowledge transfer and of course all of the decision individual tribal decisions that you laid out that are unique to each tribe perhaps around which knowledge will be shared. But that's a big coordination question on the on the tribal side but also on the side of GCRP as an enduring partner. I think that's a great question I think that's what the status of tribes and climate change report is about. We actively went out to 34 different nations and asked them. I mean they're still 500 or 550 still less than 550 but in that range that have not been heard right so we try to also include in that report from by region. And so when those. So you have Alaskan regions represented Northwest Southwest so all the different regions we try to really be specific so that each region would have an example and narrative with a solution from there. And then it went through their tribal council to get approved so that they're it's because it's a published document. So they had to go through the whole criteria of not only being cited correctly but also been going through public comment for their community. And then it went through and then it were the National Congress of American Indians is another source where that report was at least introduced. And I know that it's so folks are aware of it now to use it is another question right. It's a report. It talks about all these things happening. How do you make a person and you have to remember a lot of tribes don't even have a climate assessment. So you're using your water quality person at half time or a third of a time, trying to figure out how to put a tribal adaptation plan together and using the national climate assessment and in some ways can be very very scientific and hard, hard to figure out what their scope of it doesn't include them. So it may be too large but their scope of that doesn't impact them. So trying to different. And then what do you do with a climate one thing we at the Institute for tribal environmental professionals. One thing we were happy putting together adaptation plans, but as soon as we were done with it. We would say now what there's no resources to implement it. We try to work with FEMA so we developed an adaptation plan where FEMA was a part of it so that they could get funding. Again, a lot of this can turn up where they can leverage the the information given in in CA5 where they can find resources, more political influence so they can change laws. Those are all things that they need to use in order to help them with their climate issues. And I think rule has been had his hand up for a while now. I've been neglecting you. I apologize. Go ahead. Yeah, thanks, Ann Marie. Thank you, Juan. Thank you both for your time and your presentation. The question that I have and I think it's partly a question partly a comment is and Marie your presentation is making me think that you know when we're using the term tribal communities and we're using BIPOC, the term BIPOC, we are kind of talking about a big generic audience and almost kind of treating it as a monolith. So I just want to kind of hear from you and maybe talk a little bit about your institutional knowledge of are there any biases or assumptions that we should be mindful of when we are kind of thinking about tribal communities, especially kind of constrained within the purview of what this committee has been tasked for. And I'm trying to draw on some of your institutional knowledge here in terms of some of the bottlenecks or some of the biases assumptions that we should be mindful of when we're kind of thinking about our duties as a committee. So if you look at tribe, the word tribes in American Indian, it's a political, we are political entities and sovereign nations. I think a lot of folks oversee that they don't see tribes as sovereign nations that have their own political governments. And so when we're working with tribes is a very different. And a lot of folks think that the federal government funds them quite a bit. Yes, we get health care. I would say it's the best health care. Yes, we get education. It's not the best education. If you go on to reserves, and a lot of folks think that gaming has impacts everyone or it really helps everyone. It doesn't. A lot of tribes do not have gaming influences. And so, and a lot of tribal nations are still living in third world countries. I mean third world conditions, my nation, a third, a Navajo Nation, we have a third of our people who still have to haul water. And that's within 30 miles of where I'm in now. So, a lot of these things and that can be and that's we're working with folks in the Appalachian region, who are very, very, the level of poverty that influences and excludes people from these types of surveys where the most impacts are being felt, right? But their voices aren't heard because they don't have access to higher education to get degrees in order to get on these committees. They don't have access to people who know. So, all of the amount of access that is not given, but is not portrayed in these reports is critical. So, I would say those are some of the things from Indian country that I think people overseas that when not every tribe is a gaming tribe, and even if it's a gaming tribe, they might not be profitable. A lot of countries are still dealing with unemployment rates up to 50%. So, again, a lot of these biases are in the socioeconomic issues. Anne, and then I think we're just about out of time, but I want to come back to you. I wanted to ask the two of you to elaborate on the concept of values. I think you're getting really close in the things you've been saying. And I wonder how community values or specific values of specific communities are not being met by large scale outputs of scientific data. Juan, I'll let you go first. Well, it's a scientific problem.  Sociodynamics are going to be different in every place in every region. They're going to play out differently in terms of the relationship of those communities to the federal government, to the regional government, to economic structures, political structures, and so on.  So, assessing that in a one-sided fits all national climate assessment, that's, I think that that's a total order and I think that I don't necessarily think that the NCA should be the place to fully engage all of that because that's, I think there are a lot of world blocks in terms of process and the world of the federal government in being able to do that. I think there's a role then for other organizations such as Union of Concerned Scientists and other organizations that work with, together with impacted communities to help pinpoint what those things are and what the climate crisis means to those communities and how to address that. I mean, to summarize, it's just, it's, it's a broader sort of problem that doesn't lend itself to being approached with a one-sided fits all approach. And I think you get the last word. Thank you. I like that question because one of the things that I talk a lot about is seven generation philosophy, and that is what we do today, you should be thinking seven generations forward. And so in our communities, indigenous communities, not only are we thinking seven generations forward about what we're thinking about, but also how do we keep our languages, our songs, our traditional cultures intact for the next seven generations. And with everything that has happened in the last 500 years to erase us and erase our culture, that is something that's critically important. So when people ask about, oh, how do you want to join a group that, you know, everything has to be the same, and we're going to automatically say we're not the same. So allowing people to be unique or groups to be unique and to add that uniqueness to the NCA5 is part of, is human, you know. Yes, it's scientific, but it's also the human portion of who we are. And so that that would be a big value for indigenous peoples. Thank you. Henry and Juan. Thank you both very much. We are out of time. And, committee, why don't we take a break for a few minutes and then get back together in closed session.


It's very important for Husky to know who's on their ballot because you want to know who you're voting for and you want to know if their policies align with your policies and do you want to see if they're best for your county. A Husky can see their ballot at any time. All you have to do is put in your address at the Minnesota Secretary of State website and you're able to see whoever is on the ballot and your location. Pro tip! You can leave a section blank if you have no preference or do not know anything about a candidate. Doing so does not invalidate your ballot.


Hello everyone, welcome to this material characterization course. In today's class we will look at some of the problems related to scanning electron microscopy. So, these problems will be useful for you to solve some of the assignment problems as well as the end semester or end of the course examination. So, we will look at some of the problems related to resolution in electron optics as well as the specific system specific problems. And also we will look at some of the applications like in an ACM how we get the resolution and what are the parameters which influence this resolution related to that we will look at some of the specific problems. So, you will appreciate the importance of these concepts and then and then you can you will just get benefited while solving the assignment problems as well. So, we will just look at the first problem. So, the first problem is when a magnetic field strength of 0.2 tesla is applied on an electromagnetic lens perpendicular to the electron beam direction with an applied voltage of 20 kilo volt what would be the radius of the electron beam and the electron mass is 9.109 into 10 to the power minus 31 kilo grams and charges 1.602 into 10 to the power minus 19 column. So, what is that clue we have we are now talking about the the radius of the a beam electron beam. So, the radius is given using this formula if you recall the the electromagnetic lens schematic we have written the next question in terms of this is a formula we can use this to obtain this. So, let us solve this say a simple substitution we can write by simply substituting this 1 by 0.2 square root of 2 into 9.109 into 10 to the power minus 31 into 20 we are keeping in volts and this is the charge. So, if you work it out what you will get is. So, you will get something like this or you can write it R naught is equal to 2.385. So, this is the answer. So, we will move on to the next problem. So, in a microscope the applied probe current is 3 micro amperes and area of the cross section of the beam is about 1 micro meter convergent angle is about 0.02 radians and what would be the brightness that that is possible to obtain in this system. So, now you have the if you recall there is a relation between the brightness and the probe current and convergent angles and so on. So, you have to just look back in the lectures the formula for the brightness and I will write brightness beta. So, I p is the probe current and alpha is the convergent angle and your d p is the cross section of the beam. So, simply as substitution here. So, beta is 3.0439 that is the value of the brightness. Now, we will use this brightness value to solve another problem. So, let me write that problem the SEM operating 20 kilo volt the I p and beta values of above and the spherical aberration coefficient of the electromagnetic lens is 2 micro meter and what is minimum probe size. So, the problem is the SEM operating with 20 kilo volt having the probe current and beta values of this problem and then spherical aberration coefficient is about 2 micro meter and what is the minimum probe size of the electron beam that could be achieved and you can consider the constant k is equal to 1 and lambda is equal to 0.008 nanometers. So, if you recall the minimum probe diameter considering the aberration d minimum which is equal to k C s to the power 1 by 4 and lambda to the power 3 by 4 times you have I p divided by beta lambda square plus 1 to the power 3 by 8 it is lit. This is the formula we have seen for obtaining the minimum probe diameter. So, if we can substitute these values let us see what kind of values we are getting. So, this is a simple substitution here. So, 3 into the power minus 6 divided by 3.043 into the power 9 into 0.008 square multiplied by 10 to the power minus 8 plus 1 to the power 3 by 2 3 by 8. So, basically we are trying to substitute this and then you get the values in the range d minimum equal to 8.87 into 10 to the power minus 8. So, I request you to check this with your own calculator or we can simply say that 88.7 nanometers. So, this is the final minimum probe current we can get if you have the ACM operating parameters in this range. We will solve another simple problem. So, let me read the problem. The primary electron beam current is 1 microampere, secondary electron current signal is 0.3 microampere and the back scattered electron current signal is 0.2 microampere. What could be the sample current, secondary and back scattered electron yield? So, if you recall we have the formula for this a simple formula to calculate this. So, the primary beam current is written in terms of addition of secondary electron signal current, back scattered electron signal current and sample current. So, we can just rewrite. So, this is the first answer. The sample current is 0.5 microampere. So, the question number 2 is the back scattered electron yield which is given by which is eta is equal to I BAC divided by I naught that is the back scattered electron signal current divided by the primary beam current. So, again we can simply substitute this, you will get again same value. Secondary electron yield which is written as a delta I SE by I naught which is nothing but 0.3 microampere divided by 0.1 microampere which is again delta is equal to 0.3. This is 0.2. The yield is written as 0.2 here the yield is written 0.3. There is no units here. So, a simple arithmetic which involves the concept of the how the primary beam current is dependent on the current of secondary electron and basket electron and sample current. A simple substitution and then we can also work out the yield. And we have also seen that the importance of this, the yield of BSE and the yield of SE decides the contrast that we have seen in the some of the theoretical concepts. So, now we will move on to the next problem. So, the question is for a given wavelength of electron beam lambda and the spherical aberration coefficient C s of the lens prove that optimum image aperture represented in terms of alpha opt is proportional to lambda by C s to the power 1 by 4. Assume that the net resolution is equal to the summation of theoretical resolution that is the disc of least confusion plus the disc of confusion created by the spherical aberration. So, how do we go about this? What is the theoretical resolution? Let us consider this r1 which is equal to 0.61 lambda by alpha. So, disc of confusion created by spherical aberration by spherical aberration r2 which is equal to C s alpha cube. So, net resolution if you write let us consider this expression as 1. So, we have just simply put the respective formula and then as per the assumption here we have written the net resolution in the single formula. Now, since this net resolution is depending upon both theoretical resolution plus the spherical aberration we can write something. So, what we are now seeing here is when the spherical aberration is minimized by the use of small aperture that is alpha opt diffraction limited resolution becomes worse with the decrease in alpha. So, we have to make a compromise. So, what we can do is so we are trying to see or we are trying to differentiate the this expression with respect to alpha and see what we get. So, you get this. So, from this we can write alpha opt to the power 4 is equal to 0.61 by 3 lambda by C s alpha opt is equal to 0.203 the power 4 lambda by C s 1 by 4 or simply we can write alpha opt proportional to lambda by C s. So, you can substitute this into the equation 1 you will get R opt proportional to lambda 3 by 4 and C s 1 by 4. So, for optimum resolution. So, R opt is proportional to lambda to the power 3 by 4 and C s to the power 1 by 4 which gives the an expression for this given condition. If you assume this and the the disc of released confusion will be proportional to these quantities. So, that is what the physical meaning here the assumption made here will result in this kind of an expression. So, now, we look at another simple problem involving the depth of focus and depth of field. So, what is the depth of focus when semi aperture angle alpha is equal to 0.1 radians and the magnification m of 15000 x. So, we have seen and this in fact we have derived this in the SEM class with the schematic you can recall the depth of focus can be related to this. So, you simply substitute this this will be in mm. So, 1.33 into 10 to the power minus 4 mm or 0.133 micrometer. So, that is a very simple problem another problem let us quickly write. So, an accelerating voltage of 25 kilo volts is supplied to the tension filament in SEM what is the wavelength lambda of the emitted electrons. So, it is again very straight forward formula you have the lambda which is relating the acceleration voltage. So, very standard formula we have seen that. So, straight away you will get 0.00766 nanometer for this kind of a voltage for 25 kilo volts you will get in this range. And finally, the question is an electron beam refracts at an angle of 0.1 radians when the angle of incidence is 0.025 radians on passing through a region of potential difference V2 minus V1. Does the beam retard or accelerate through this potential difference? If you look at the or if you recall the very beginning of the electromagnetic lenses we talked about the Snell's law and then we said that there is no difference between light light or the behavior of light optical system as well as in electron optical system they are also the same. So, in that respect if you recall we have written a formula like this. So, sin i and I mean sin r by sin i is equal to square root of V1 by V2 and then if you recall that schematic where the electrons are passing through the electro potential lens how whether it is retodding or the or accelerating depending upon the voltage of the they applied the voltage applied to this system. So, we can simply substitute and see what happens here sin. So, you get V1 is approximately equal to 1 6 times of V2 that is V1 is greater than V2. So, then what happens the beam undergoes yeah retardation. So, that is what we will see when the voltage V2 is greater than I mean V1 is greater than V2 then the beam will undergo retardation. So, with all this small, small numerical problems I suppose you are able to solve the assignments as well as you are able to solve small, small numerical problems and I hope these things these exercise will help you in the final examination also if you have any specific queries you are welcome to interact with us and we will respond to your queries. Thank you.