Well, yeah I agree. Yeah That's real fear when you don't know where you're putting your head at night You don't know where the next meals coming from and when you find a place to sleep You don't sleep there because that you're not, you know, you might say you rest there But with the one eye open because you don't know what could happen. It's not safe Yeah, and and and the the folks that are on our streets right now who are being picked up and incarcerated for things that are Not really crimes because I don't believe that being homeless is a crime The most violence they face is from people who are not in their community from us They they they they face violence from us. We're the perpetrators I Mean there were two murders in St. John's Berry, so can't tell your field trips there Which is always an issue, but it's like That's not I don't know just the fact that you're like, oh, I'm I'm in danger, but you can go home And and not have to go People are always there I think it's me personally offensive. It's offensive. I've been homeless with my kids before which is awful by the way in winter I've been I couldn't go to a hotel or anything.   I'm gonna know like, you know Could you find a toothbrush that day? And could you get your kid to do a doctor treatment and you know never card so could you do this could do that? It was awful and I'm like, yeah, I think about it now in Burlington I feel like, you know, I don't want to say oh, it's all the junkie and all the joy addicts. Well, here's the thing Okay, people could have substance abuse problem, but I will tell you this There's a lot of people that I see on the streets in Burlington. I recently just got a card like this year So I had to have a car for a while.  You know how hard it is to get a job in your homeless You know how hard it is to have a job in your homeless It's horrible. It's really hard and I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's very very difficult You know, do you know what it's like to, you know, for For them not to have any money. Okay, so great.  Okay, so I Mean I can see there's probably some things that they take maybe to not go to sleep or not You know sleep as much or not feel hungry or there's all these things that like Unfortunately, it's used at the crutch. I'm not saying I'm not saying he please put your drug I'm not saying at all. What I'm saying is that people want to blame Homeless people for your problem. No, what I'm saying is that it's a crutch and it is used I think more frequently by people that are having a lack of stability with housing and you know Oh for sure for sure. I think yeah, and the same is true with you know The folks that you see that may you may perceive as mentally ill, right, right? They may not be unsheltered because they're mentally ill, right Being unsheltered is so traumatizing That it just tips people over the edge and like like I watch it happen in shelter. It's Gut wrench to see people who had jobs and homes and families and one stupid little thing happened And now they're staying in shelter and you can watch them decline But they were able to sustain all the things that we are able to sustain six months ago And they may never be able to again. Yeah, and a whole lot of those folks end up incarcerated Yeah Yes, yes I think you know, I mean, I think we all have roles we can play and we all Should figure out what what it makes sense, right? Because some of right some of us can be advocates and we can be out and loud and talking about things for some of us It's you know being informed. It's really about being informed when you go to vote right we all have a civic responsibility to vote for people who Support programs that support human beings You know for some people it's volunteering it could be volunteering. I think it looks different for everybody But we can't know one of us can do all of it And there are organizations You know specifically You know, I think you could probably speak to you know the things that support The folks in community, you know, you know people at housing and food and I mean, oh gosh, there's there's so many ways There's there's so many ways you can you know support your own sheltered neighbors and and Honestly, the thing every every person can do is like just change the language like just be Realistic who you're talking about but just being really cognizant of the the words you use and You know try real hard not to use pejorative ones, you know I probably said homeless at some point during this panel and I like I but that's not the best word It's not it's not a good word to use and I I'm working on that myself So what are you gonna say that's not almost unhoused unsheltered. Yeah She said that she So Oh, I'm not telling them what they should I'm not saying anything about if you have lived experience you identify how you want to But I'm saying that as a person who has never used An opioid I am never gonna call someone an addict. It's gross. It's pejorative and it sounds It has a connotation Right in our society that that I would never Mean and it's the same, you know when you Say homeless now, especially now in Burlington people, you know make a picture, right? So, you know, if you want to call yourself homeless if that's how you identify That's none of my business and I you know, obviously, but but someone is unhoused or Worse they're unsheltered which are different things Um But that that speaks to the lack of something that they're able to attain and not to their Personhood and I feel like that's a really important distinction to make Yeah, yeah, I think people first language is very important, you know, I I think of it in like The lens of immigration there are folks who will call them illegals Or aliens or whatever, they're not I'm sorry. There are no illegal people in this world They're undocumented, right, you know, so I think you know making sure that we use people first language is Important unless you have that lived experience and then absolutely you you you've earned the Ticket to Identify how you want When I think about you know going back to your question on the roles that folks can play There are many different roles and it depends on you know What's your reach is? You know, so as just said, you know being an informed voter and making sure you're voting for folks who are going to Make decisions in alignment with your personal values and truths Volunteer for a COSA circle through our restorative and community justice centers I love the program COSA because it gives a formally incarcerated person an instant new network of people in the community and those COSA volunteers have their own networks of folks that they've built up that that core member can now tap into and Not have to return to the old networks that they used to know if they truly want to Create a new future for themselves always recommend COSA's I think about you know some of our Employment policies if you are a business owner Do you have a policy to perform background checks? Is that still necessary after all these years?  So if you have a policy to not hire anyone with justice with a history of justice and involvement you are limiting your pools severely and I don't think you know whether you've been incarcerated or not Limits the skill to perform a job or do it well You know as Tony said she was able to her family was able to get her a lawyer and things So that serve them well in the job place because to survive in that environment you have to be resilient You have to be assertive You have to be determined and persevere Otherwise it'll tear you down in there and the same could be said, you know after You're talking about jobs, but like landlords, you know Do you do you have an apartment to rent a room to rent or whatever? Are you checking background checks?  Why? They you know that doesn't Preclude them from paying their rent. Well, it's money but I Asked you about the word homeless. Oh, sure I'm concerned that we got away from the point that you were making because I think it was I think it's why we're here really like when you walk around and you look at the artwork, so you're thinking prisoner, you know and maybe you have some conception misconception and you just go around and look at the Ability here and someone had mentioned these are not professionally trained artists, but you look at all the potential and all the differences and everybody becomes To me they're a different human.  As a human it's your perception of the person in the prison or wherever all people really but I think that that's Probably where we all really need do need to be starting With any conversations to knock off all of these crazy ideas we have about people Generally, but especially people who are incarcerated in jail or prison. Yeah, I I think you're absolutely right And I think let's forget the words now Because right really Absolutely, and there are so many Opportunities that we have to hear the stories of people in groups that we don't belong to Like in this age of communication and and whatever you know we have we have the opportunity to go online and and hear stories from incarcerated individuals or hear stories from unsheltered individuals and and You know, I guess I just would challenge people to like make themselves uncomfortable in that way Because as you build the empathy then you'll kind of like see what it is you can provide, right? If you're looking for a thing to do to help I think Yeah, and then like in terms of you know again my lens, it's always about the children, you know And I'll hear people say things like well once she's been sober for six months We can talk about her having visits with her kids It's such and a minute. I just want everyone I'm I'm sure I don't have to convince anyone That's you're all here because you connected to this topic and you either invited us to be here Or you're connected to this talk But that's a really common misperception and people when people say that What is their their goal? Their goal is to protect a child, right? They're not doing it out of malice. There's no ill Will there if they actually believe they're helping it doesn't help the child to be separated from their mom You know, so I spent a lot of time in my work trying to you know Tried to talk to folks who make decisions You know people in power whether they're in power on a systemic level or a family level to make those choices for children and to really say Children love their parents Right, so a child doesn't see And every and all of us, you know And I'm borrowing language from a very wise woman who's not sitting with us today But who says that? Everyone all of us have caused harm. We all cause harm and So why would we who are any of us to decide that the person who was incarcerated caused a kind of harm That doesn't allow them like she sold drugs What does that have to do with her relationship to her child and how do you how do you really explain to a child? You can't see mommy because she sold drugs Or because she was driving when she used she was driving when she used drugs and somebody died as a result That's a horrific situation, but it's not the context of the relationship between that parent and child So, you know, there's so much we can do to keep conversations That we're having today continuing, you know continuing out and and Challenging people on those ideas of what does it mean to what does protection mean? I'd also just to go a little further than that Jess so I am a woman in long-term recovery and at the height of my addiction I Turn guardianship of my son over to my mother because we didn't have Medicated assisted treatment in the state at the time and so I went out of state to get treatment and To explain to my two-year-old son That I had to leave states To get treatment was really hard to know how to communicate it on His level in his understanding, so that's what I love about the kids apart programming and how You have that conversation because kids will fill in the gaps and So I thought the best way to explain it was I have to go to learn how to be a better mommy for you and It wasn't until later when I came back and was reunifying with my son That he internalized it as if he was a better son I didn't have to go learn how to be a better mommy So kids will identify that and if you Charge a woman to be sober for six months before she can see her kid The inverse happens if she's not able to do it then she doesn't let her kids enough.  You know whatever but sometimes the thing we're holding out as a carrot that they can't quite grab is the thing that would Really help them get better Yeah, and and do better and it just strikes me that we play this game all the time when if you just like Give the person visitation and maybe they won't want to do drugs so badly Give the person a home and then they can work on the other stuff. I Am I wrong in feeling that way?  So we're not talking about those situations When a child has been harmed by their parent a Lot of people will be involved in making decisions About what's in the best interest of that child? Right and and even in some of the most extreme cases It's possible to repair harm Right, but we're not talking about those cases. We're saying In most off it's you know for for my program There are not We don't have Really hoops that people You know, they've got to do an intake with the program. There are certain things, you know There are certain safety decisions. We have to make at times, you know But for the most part we just we want to be able to start that work and start that healing As soon as possible, we don't want to we're not going to ask someone to do Six months of classes before you see your child that we're going to start visits and we're going to start working on things because that's Humane and it's not it's not used as leverage either So like Visitation isn't taken away if they take an apple back to their unit from the child and they get a DR Now they will get the DR, but they'll still get their visits And I will say in the Chittenden Regional Correctional Facility Women do not the only time a woman would ever Lose her ability to have a visit is if she is presenting in a way that is physically or emotionally Unsafe for the child of that on that day. There is no There is nothing in that building that she could be punished for she could be receiving the most serious punishment in that building and She will still get her visit unless she is in a state where we're going well That's not a good day for a child to have that happen, but then we're going to figure out Well, how long does it kind of be until we can Is that different because I know like they gave one time they put me in the hole And I didn't even do that.  I went to the hospital. I didn't do any way. No, I was my visit Nobody's gonna nobody loses visits for any more if they're an alpha.  Wow That's good. I'm glad they changed that that was broke my heart. Yeah. I know unless unless She's right. Well, this is not it right right, but you know what I'm saying Yeah, they just like there's times when people go to gain trouble and it's not They have not they hadn't been they've had their hearing, you know, just sitting in there And they had a clue they were there ever yeah, and that being said some time I mean a cake, you know, it doesn't mean it happens It happens with a lot of conversation And a lot of support, but yeah, it is we do it is not ever used as a punishment Now I just want to say like I mean it's kind of back piggyback on what everybody here saying um Man my kids like needed to serve it as with me My kids don't talk about it like they still say yeah, I'm like him. You know my son Connor I came over to you if you did buddy. Thank you buddy You know, you got me through that like my kids saw me and I saw them I didn't have this when my kids when I was there. I would not have been okay And after I had my my little guy my my friend, you know when I had him I had just had him If I didn't have my business when he was a newborn in your room and I actually had special that this could be a newborn So it's so nice. I got like cool. I'm like just hanging out with him for a long time. And um, I didn't have the business. I really don't think I Would be made us through those last few months because it was just it was really important for him The thing about it is, you know, it's important for these kids to see their moms like it's not it's not okay for kids not to see their moms No, the focus that's just Yes You think you're punishing the mother, right, but you're punishing the child you're punishing the child a hundred percent In reality the child is because you had mentioned a number of reasons why the child would say oh When the mother was white earlier on you were discussing that and I was thinking when you were saying that and one of the things that Children do come up with pretty quickly and that is I must have done something wrong. Yeah.  I mean It's so sad The younger you are I'm so it's 29th. I just want to address the elephant in the room, which is the 90 million dollar facility Right, so we all agree that the building is crumbling. Yes. Yes And john and I talked about this the other day and when they Um, there's a lot of things we all agree on Right and that's one we all agree on Yeah And you're all wonderful people doing gorgeous work So we all agree that we want and we know who is in crcf We know the women what they're struggling with and what they need to heal, right? How they need to heal So Is what do we do help me help us understand how we can justify 90 million dollars on a facility When Yeah, I don't yeah When we have gorgeous ideas for what could help people and you I mean you could bubbled within 10 minutes of like we could do this We could do this we could do this So You know, is there is there an entrance anywhere for you all that are in In these conversations to say hey, we've got some ideas to um, yeah I mean, I I mean, I know the world.  Can I just say something briefly and I'm not I'm not I'm not important like these guys. I'm not like You're the most important You're the most important here Well, anyway, you know, um, my whole thing is this so I Like, you know working with free her and you know just learning about some of the stuff I've been learning about, you know I really didn't even know what abolition was until I started working with them Abolition I didn't really know what it was until I started working with them. Um, but anyway, this is a you know Where we're at as we're saying we don't think it's necessary at all. There's a cadillian other things you could do we have If we drew up a 16 page document of alternatives and involving things only that already exist in our state even You know what I mean, like and then we have a whole another document of alternatives that could be done fairly, you know, like You know pretty streamlined, you know, you not like totally out there and not super expensive not reinventing the wheel not You know, I mean not using a whole bunch of different service writers. Maybe using more service writers, whatever, but the thing is this They're in my opinion, you know They I don't think there's any need for any building. I don't think the obviously the old building is disgusting.  We're trying to talk to other representatives all these things We're going Intestifying the state house and doing different things. Um, working with other organizations um, and just trying to like rally and and just you know Build this movement up to the point where The state has to listen, you know, I mean like we're trying to get it so that they maybe do pass these bills and that what we stall us Dull them and then get some more time to get An alternative of a pilot program going instead.  Okay.  No matter what you do It's still a jail. It's still a facility. You know, I mean you are not solving The problem it sure might look nice That's great. You know, and it might be okay while they're in there, but is it really I mean No, it's not And I already can say trauma informed or anything else as much as I want, but it's not It's just not. I mean prison is inherently traumatic. It's just is and there's nothing anybody can do about that I mean, I appreciate people trying to I don't think that you know, obviously you have to try to you're there You know, I'm saying like that. I think that's amazing But at the end of the day, there is nothing you can do About the fact that you're putting people in cages and saying, hey, cool.  Sorry.  You're in these conversations literally so That's another question. I'm sorry It seems like I've been hearing when you talk and it seems like you've been talking about first you're talking about like Why is there a person and then specifically the stuff about the children and like doing the thing with the character stick And it seems like the whole idea is about deterrence But once someone's done something that's considered legal then there's like The deterrence start to fail and so then it's like it's there's no good way to handle that situation And it seems like the problem from the beginning is like Nobody, you know when they make it law and say you're going to go to prison They don't expect anyone to break that law and so they haven't like thought about right What's going to happen happens? So it's really helpful. They hear people talking about like what should be happening after is All that emphasis is on oh no one's going to do it Yeah No, I just thought that all of the programs that you have described That you folks are all involved in These programs pertain to to me. Maybe I'm just stating the obvious But these are not just programs for incarcerated women. These programs stand on their own And and that to me seems like that that might that's part of the shift you know like All of these programs I mean you must have other people who are not incarcerated in these programs Absolutely The sooner they get them when they need them Yeah Then we've done it Yeah, so like when I think about the 90 million dollars in a new facility um A new facility might afford us the space to have more programming more training Um More mental health services treatment services But there's still once they get released they return to the communities that have those gaps and services So until we address the gaps in community services, which I think will help on the front end too So we won't need As big of a prison Then It It stops that pipeline And For those that do end up incarcerated at least we know they're returning to a community with robust resources I think one of the reasons why DOC is looking to chitin and county is because of the service providers But that perpetuates the problem Because that keeps the service providers concentrated in chitin and county Yeah, it doesn't work for vermont. It doesn't work for vermont. I mean If I could wave a magic wand I would love to see smaller regional Transitional Places So that's so those conversations And I don't know are you feeling like the the the DOC gait moment of the recording? Are we feeling that is that something now? Yeah And I have reasons why that I get worried about Smaller right. I worry about You know, you've touched on The inherent risks of being incarcerated Yeah, right of being inside and I worry that smaller more isolated programs Have less eyes on them and less protective factors For the individuals there. Yeah because Because that's a reality. No. Yes, isn't that now true of um, I was actually saying this to mary on the way in jail versus prison isn't that kind of the general deal like a jail is a little bit more out of the system and so I mean my daughter was incarcerated More than once and she said that jails were far worse than She thought that in vermont. It's all Yeah, so, you know, yeah Yeah, vermont, we don't have jails in prisons We have one we have correctional facilities with everybody all It's sort of the same idea to start like a little more local control and it seems more corrupt Absolutely Yeah, so that's another piece that vermont doesn't have is a lot of states have counting jail systems where folks go pre-trial So that the folks that end up In facility are all sentenced whereas in vermont. It's Unified so Our sheriffs aren't running those county jails. They all go To the correctional facility So I I agree that Yeah, there are pros and cons to everything and when you Think about creating those regional places Then we run into the disparity of geography because you know, just like Depending on which state's attorney you have and which judge you have It also depends on staffing too I think what you're one of the things though that's sort of you're touching on I think though is it It's super complicated. Like there's a lot a lot of this there is no like Like we could go well on this hand. We've got this look on the one hand. I mean your stance on abolitionism I believe with wholeheartedly On this hand and on this hand. I don't think we have the infrastructure So we spend the 90 million on that infrastructure And then what happens to and then Well, maybe so okay, so that and then but then on that hand we have women continuing to live inside a building That's not a million on a new building And I'm only saying this to you or you're just I don't know I don't I don't know that we have the infrastructure to do that I think like I think there's like I think sometimes we don't We know what would be best, but we also know what we've got And how do you make Like I don't know that we can always But you do know You do like I feel like if they were like, hey, you know, come on with some pilot projects and you know, so so Um With our reentry pilot That that funding came from the legislature and act 183 for a three-year pilot for $300,000 Okay, year one is gone And we learned a lot in year one by having, you know, the transitional house and our employer partner with middlebury college But there were also a lot of challenges that came up that We didn't have the funding to fix Because no pilot is going to Be successful its first time out of the gate And so creating that runway to be able to try different things um Is just not built into the system because It's a system of contracts and when you sign a contract with an agency You have to commit to deliverables for that contract And if you can't meet those deliverables, then you don't get the contract again. So then the pilot's gone again Do you see doesn't have to prove I don't know what the metric is or well, I know do you'll find out I know I know that doc gets grants So they must have to commit to some outcomes I don't know as far as What their internal systems are for like staffing evaluation and things like that To see that they're Effective in their efforts um I think that could be something where legislature could help But I also know with data Depending on what lens you're looking at the data through you can kind of spin it to Well, and that's like data sort of the problem. I hate data because because What's your metric of success in a program? and sometimes What comes up on a spreadsheet that sits on a bureaucrats desk who has never worked with the population or met any people of lived experience Is not really what we think success is going to look like it's not the same And so and that's just such a giant system problem Yeah, I It some days really feels insurmountable Like how do I how do I make someone understand that you know the program I used to work at that was closed like Like if one woman got out of there Found a home got her kids back had a job for five years and has not been incarcerated since like that's success even if Five women had to do it three times to make it work You know like to me it's still wonderfully successful and joyful The d.o.c. Did not agree that program no longer exists Hard breaking When that program oh like to be able to have seen it open and closed is absolutely Oh Like that. It's been three years. I'm still not over it like I'm literally sad every day that I don't have that job anymore Here's the thing that I mean does anyone know what the average length of stay and substance use treatment in the state of vermont is What's that? Do you know how long people in vermont can access treatment for substance use disorder? Do does anyone know? What how long can they stay how long can they stay I would say maybe 30 days 14 14 days 13 So if there's one thing if there is one thing we all can do we can be advocating to our legislators that there needs to be increased Opportunities for treatment in the state. There's currently Four sites in the state that women can go for substance use treatment if they have children Between if they're pregnant or have a child to the age of five they can go to residential treatment at lond with their children That's the agency I work for that's an amazing program. That's the only long-term Only one left only one. Okay. Anyone else can go to valley vista or serenity for 14 days And there's often a waiting list It used to be there used to be a program in rattle girl called tapestry that women had the opportunity of going for a year Three months or 30 days and there was a step down program that they could transition into upon Completion of the program They found mold in the building and they had to shut down the building and then they never at that program never Remember we So what do you how do you make sense of it in your own lives, you know You we all agree on so much. So then how do you sit in those meetings?  Well, I mean it's or it's your sphere of influence You know, like that's my opportunity to use my voice. So I feel obligated to use it Even if the ultimate decision Is to build this new facility Then I want to make sure it's the best facility we can possibly build if that's going to happen Then I'd rather I have my input included Then not included But like I know when it comes to discussions over treatment I feel like There's a lot of passing the buck Because you know the the substance the treatment places will say well, we're mandated by insurance And insurance will say well, this is what the best evidence-based Research shows is two weeks to stabilize So I feel like until there is consensus and there can't be an off-ramp For someone to escape accountability We're not going to see a change And that's like just just to throw it out there. I was like a little extra. It's only two weeks and there's a wait list for it So like you could overdose while you're on the wait list Yeah, and at the end of those two weeks you can leave to the streets Right. Yeah. Oh, and I mean I like Not not for nothing. I have I have 33 people in shelter right now and four of them Were released from treatment to nowhere Yeah Yeah, and that two weeks you only talk about your substance use you don't talk about the underlying issues Why are you using why you use those substances in the first place? Is there some vehicle that you folks all have to get it sounds like you sort of sound like remember the Um When police departments didn't speak to one another across the country And so the criminal could go to this state and do all sorts of bad things and they'd show up in another state And nobody would know I don't know that's probably a terrible analogy, but you all are doing all these great things But I think you were saying that um You don't really like the follow-through from a person like the child on through like you're not hearing about these people among yourselves is there a is there something some way that your data can be shared and is there anything there that Makes all of you speak together and say, oh, yeah, I know joe. She was here last year and I mean in the Here's the thing what like, you know again No one person can do everything. We all have to think of what we can do I know for me I can show up every day at that facility And gives my all to the women there each day Be present for them Be respectful of them and they're You know and that we can we inside Can work with each other even though we work for different organizations with different funding streams and all that we can I can stop by heather's office and say I had a weird conversation with so-and-so. Did you never notice anything going on with her today? And she could be like, oh, yeah, she had this thing happen and she's You know, I saw her a little while later and she had worked through it and she's okay. Oh, okay We're like, yeah, she got really bad news. Maybe you could check in, you know So like we have the ability To do that and that's what we can show up like That's what we can show up each day And do and advocate when we can, you know, but number one But again, it's It's not built into the system structure It happens because of who we are And just wondering that you're so caring and Talking to one another like that. It just seems in 2024 that there could be some data access On people who are having difficulties and we could help them better Seems like in dark ages In a way, you know, we we do it better for unhoused people. They think a little bit better Because we have a statewide system called the Homelessness management information system. Oh, HMIS Um That uh, you know, every provider in the state has access to and when we, you know, put our case notes in there and do whatever And you can look up your clients see who else they've worked with contact people their releases But that doesn't Unfortunately cross the barrier to do see because of privacy like And honestly that I I feel okay about that because people deserve to Leave incarceration and leave incarceration if they you know if they want to Yeah, so I because we have presented incarceration in such a horrifying way that Right just it just lose lose right I just I mean, I do wish there was a way to provide some continuity of service without Without making feel it people feel like we are not respecting their privacy or autonomy But um right now we don't we haven't figured it out yet. No, so i'm working on it That said I do sometimes say to people. Hey If you were in crcf did you work with kids apart? Can I email jess? And sometimes they say no and sometimes they say yes, and then we can Then we can sign release and then we can sign releases. It's a process. Yeah, but then but we can Yeah Thank you guys for having us and for listening and being involved Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'd like to say that right the amazing amount of wisdom Is there thank you for sharing with us And I I feel like you're disruptors You're disruptors Yep Because you're making connections and you're making connections right at the heart level And you You had a conversation amongst yourselves And we we we were honored to be here and just listen to this conversation and draw So thank you As we move around the state we're hoping to connect with more organizations That are in different corners of the state and one of the things that I would like to see And I've talked with heather about this is gee there's an organization in maine That's seems to be white years ahead In this same work And you prove right here that it doesn't even happen within a state itself as small as Vermont is So we really need to all kind of come together In those connections and continue and continue to have almost like this One last little interesting thing on that though like a lot of the work that's gone on in new hampshire and maine Has happened as a result of the work in vermont because the the women's services in vermont began in 2003 and there was a And vermont doc had a director of women and family services And all of these programs began when the dale facility Open which was the first facility for women in the state of vermont. So we You know kind so the vermont sort of piloted these women's services and then Maine and new hampshire were able to say oh my gosh, look what they're doing and then they took it further and now we're we are Continuing to play catch up, but um you have to play catch up because the director of women's services That position went away for a little while Did in new hampshire when they saw what vermont did they put it into legislation to have that be required So there are ways that you know, we do have to keep continuing to look around us to see what's going on and what we can improve on Thank you And you know, I'd like to flip that because you know, they're scared people Like the people that the people that you're encountering On the streets of berlington that are making you uncomfortable And let's be real clear the discomfort and fear are not the same thing They're making you uncomfortable and they are terrified every minute of their day well Yeah, I agree. Yeah That's real fear when you don't know where you're putting your head at night You don't know where the next meal's coming from and when you find a place to sleep You don't sleep there because that you're not, you know, you might rest you rest there But with one eye open because you don't know what could happen. It's not safe And and the the folks that are on our streets right now who are being picked up and incarcerated for things that are Not really crimes because I don't believe that being homeless is a crime The most violence they face is from people who are not in their community from us They they they they face violence from us. We're the perpetrators That's happening.  Oh, yeah, it is gross I mean, there were two burgers and st. Johns Berries. So cancel all your field trips. They are too it's just like like That's if I hide behind the like the oh, it's scary. It's fine. Like We know this is talking about we're talking about homeless people and people We're struggling with drug abuse like which is always an issue, but it's like That's not I don't know just the fact that you're like, oh, I'm I'm in danger, but you can go home to your house, right? And and not have to go Into broken tip or into that area that you deal with if you don't want to go People are always there So yeah, I definitely noticed it. You know the way that people are talking about It's strange I took it between you personally it's offensive It's offensive. I've been homeless with my kids before which is awful by the way in winter Um, I've been I couldn't go to a hotel or anything. So that was great You know what I mean? So I like literally had to like depend on like I was working at times I had to like pay like friends like let me stay like a couch, you know And like have my kids like and you know, it's just it was it was about anyway that went on for It went on for eight months and then I ended up having my son Calvin and I ended up In an apartment before I was proud of thank god, but um But I was in for like assignment and very but that was awful, you know, but it was like scary just not knowing Like just not knowing where you're sleeping.   Well, here's the thing Okay, people could have substance abuse problem But I will tell you this there's a lot of people that I see on the streets in Burlington Um, I recently just got a car like this year. So I had to have a car for a while I had to walk my son to daycare and stuff and back and I had to walk around town Um, you know to work or whatever.  It's really hard.  Okay, so great.  Okay, so You know, and if you're on the streets at night, think about it like you're trying to stay awake all night and, you know, not be scared. Okay, so I mean, I can see there's probably some things that they take maybe to not go to sleep or not, you know, sleep as much or Not feel hungry or there's all these things that like Unfortunately, it's used at the crutch. I'm not saying I'm not saying he please go do drugs. I'm not saying at all What I'm saying is that people want to blame Homeless people for drug problems. No, what I'm saying is that it's a crutch And it is used, I think more frequently like people that are having a lack of stability with housing and you know Oh, for sure. For sure. I think yeah And the same is true with, you know, the folks that you see that may you may perceive as mentally ill Right, right They may not be unsheltered because they're mentally ill Right Being unsheltered is so traumatizing That it just tips people over the edge and like I watch it happen in shelter. It's gut wrench to see people who had jobs and homes and families and one stupid little thing happened And now they're staying in shelter and you can watch them decline But they were able to sustain all the things that we are able to sustain six months ago And they may never be able to again Yeah And a whole lot of those folks end up incarcerated Absolutely Yes I mean, I think, you know I mean, I think we all have roles we can play and we all Should figure out what What it makes sense, right because some of right some of us can be advocates and we can be out and loud and talking about things For some of us, it's you know being informed. It's really about being informed when you go to vote Right, we all have a a civic responsibility To vote for people who Support programs that support human beings You know for some people it's volunteer it could be volunteering. I think it looks different for everybody But we can't know one of us can do all of it So and there are organizations You know specifically You know, I think you could probably speak to You know the things that support The folks in community, you know, yeah people in housing and food and I mean, oh gosh, there's there's so many ways There's there's so many ways you can you know support your own shelter of neighbors and and Honestly, the thing every every person can do is like just change the language like just be Do you have this if who you're talking about But just be really cognizant of the the words you use and you know, try real hard not to use pejorative ones You know, I probably said homeless at some point during this panel and I like I but that that's not the best word It's not a it's not a good word to use and I I'm working on that myself So what are you going to say that's not homeless? Do you have it on housed on sheltered? Yeah I have a question. Yeah, I'm going to just what she said that she experienced being homeless She referred to herself as homeless like I've been to AA meetings with my dad and everybody they refer to themselves as addicts So why can't you as someone who is like almost an outside looking in tell them what they should do? Oh, I'm not telling them what they should I'm not saying anything about if you have lived experience You identify how you want to but I'm saying that as a person who has never used Um an opioid I am never going to call someone an addict. It's gross. It's pejorative and it sounds It has a connotation Right in our society that that I would never Mean and it's the same, you know when you Say homeless now, especially now in burlington people, you know make a picture, right? So, you know if you want to call yourself homeless if that's how you identify That's none of my business and I you know, obviously, but but someone is unhoused Or worse, they're unsheltered, which are different things Um But that that speaks to the lack of something that they're able to attain and not to their Personhood and I feel like that's a really important distinction to make Um Yeah, yeah, I think people first language is very important. Um, you know, I I think of it in like The lens of immigration there are folks who will call them illegals Or aliens or whatever. They're not I'm sorry. There are no illegal people in this world They're undocumented, right, you know, so I think you know making sure that we use people first language Is important unless you have that lived experience and then absolutely you you you've earned the The ticket to Identify how you want. Um When I think about you know going back to your question on the roles that folks can play There are many different roles and it depends on you know What your reach is? You know, so as just said, you know being an informed voter and making sure you're voting for folks who are going to Make decisions in alignment with your personal values and truce Um volunteer for a cosa circle, uh through our restorative and community justice centers I love the program cosa because It gives a formerly incarcerated person an instant new network of people in the community and those Cosa volunteers have their own networks of folks that they've built up that that core member can now tap into And not have to return to the old networks that they used to know if they truly want to Create a new future for themselves Always recommend coses.  Is that still necessary after all these years? I mean, do you really more people in this country? Have a history with justice involvement than have a college degree So if you have a policy To not hire anyone with justice with a history of justice involvement You are limiting your pools severely And I don't think you know, whether you've been incarcerated or not Limits the skill To perform a job or do it well, you know As tony said she was able to her family was able to get her a lawyer and things So that she didn't have to experience that incarceration I teach women that they gain skills while they're incarcerated that will serve them well in the job place Because to survive in that environment, you have to be resilient You have to be assertive You have to be determined and persevere Otherwise It'll tear you down in there And the same could be said, you know after You're talking about jobs, but like landlords, you know, I've said Do you do you have an apartment to rent a room to rent or whatever? Are you checking background checks?  Why? That you know that doesn't um Procude them from paying their rent But I I asked you about the word homeless Oh, sure But I'm concerned that we got away from the point that you were making because I think it was I think it's why we're here Really, um, like when you walk around and you look at the artwork.  I mean now, you know, they're like wow, you know, I can't do that, you know and um, and so what can you do in the community and Um As a human it's your perception of the person in the prison Or wherever all people really but I think that that's Probably where we all really need do need to be starting With any conversations to knock off all of these crazy ideas we have about people Generally, but especially people who are incarcerated in jail or prison Yeah, I I think you're absolutely right and I think let's forget the words now because the feelings are really Absolutely, and there are so many opportunities that we have to hear the stories of people in groups that we don't belong to Like in this age of communication and and whatever, you know, we have we have the opportunity to go online and And hear stories from incarcerated individuals or hear stories from unsheltered individuals and and You know, I guess I I just would challenge people to like make themselves uncomfortable in that way Because as you build the empathy, then you'll kind of like see what it is you can provide, right? If you're looking for a thing to do to help I think Yeah, and then like in terms of you know, again my lens, it's always about the children You know, and I'll hear people say things Like well once she's been sober for six months, we can talk about her having visits with her kids It's such and I mean, I just want everyone I'm I'm sure I don't have to convince anyone that's you're all here because You connected to this topic and you either invited us to be here or you're connected to this topic But that's a really common misperception when people say that What is their their goal their goal is to protect a child, right? They're they're not doing it out of malice. There's no ill Will there if they actually believe they're helping it doesn't help the child to be separated from their mom You know, so I spent a lot of time in my work trying to You know, I'll try to talk to folks who makes decisions You know people in power Whether they're in power on a systemic level or in a family level to make those choices for children and to really say Children love their parents Right. So a child doesn't see And every and all of us, you know And I'm borrowing language from a very wise woman who's not sitting with us today But who says that um everyone all of us have caused harm. We all cause harm and So Why would we who are any of us to decide that the person who was incarcerated caused a kind of harm That doesn't allow them like she sold drugs. What does that have to do with her relationship to her child? And how do you how do you really explain to a child you can't see mommy because she sold drugs Or because she was driving when she she was driving when she used drugs and somebody died as a result That's a horrific situation, but it's not the context of the relationship between that parent and child So, you know, there's so much we can do to keep conversations That we're having today continuing, you know continuing out and and And Challenging people on those ideas Of what does it mean to what does protection mean? I'd also just to go a little further than that Jess So I am a woman in long-term recovery And at the height of my addiction I turned guardianship of my son over to my mother because we didn't have Medicated assisted treatment in the state at the time and so I went out of state to get treatment and To explain to my two-year-old son That I had to leave state To get treatment Was really hard to know how to communicate it on His level in his understanding So that's what I love about the kids apart programming and how You had that conversation because kids will fill in the gaps and so I thought the best way to explain it was I have to go to learn how to be a better mommy for you And it wasn't until later when I came back and was reunifying with my son that he internalized it as If he was a better son, I didn't have to go learn how to be a better mommy. Oh my gosh So kids will identify that and if you charge a woman to be sober for six months before she can see her kid The inverse happens if she's not able to do it then she doesn't love her kids enough Which is completely inaccurate I mean I'm extrapolating here, but you're gonna answer me and say I tell you if I'm wrong But it seems to me that you know programs like yours When we can We give people like it's like a carrot sometimes like oh, you know Do these things and you can visit with your child or you know Do these things and you can get housing or do these things You know, whatever But sometimes the thing we're holding out as a carrot that they can't quite grab is the thing that would Really help them get better Yeah, and and do better and it just strikes me that we play this game all the time when if you just like Give the person visitation and maybe they won't want to do drugs so badly Give the person a home and then they can work on the other stuff Um, I am I wrong in feeling that way?  So we're we're not talking about those situations When a child has been harmed by their parent A lot of people will be involved in making decisions About what's in the best interest of that child Right and and even in some of the most extreme cases It's possible to prepare harm, right, but we're not talking about those cases. We're saying In most off it's so, you know for for my program There are not We don't have Really hoops that people You know, they've got to do an intake with the program. There are certain things, you know There are certain safety decisions we have to make at times, you know But for the most part we just we want to be able to start that work and start that healing Um, as soon as possible We don't want to we're not going to ask someone to do six months of classes before you see your child Now we're going to start visits and we're going to start working on things because that's Humane and it's not it's not used as leverage either So like visitation isn't taken away if they take an apple back to their unit from the chow hall And they get a dr now they will get the dr But they'll still get their visits and I will say in the chitenden regional correctional facility Women do not the only time a woman would ever Lose her ability to have a visit Is if she is presenting in a way that is physically or emotionally unsafe for the child of that on that day there is no If there is nothing in that building that she could be punished for she could be receiving the most serious punishment in that building and She will still get her visit unless she is in a in a state where we're going well That's not a good day for a child to Have that happen, but then we're going to figure out how long is it going to be until we can Is that different because I know like they gave one time they put me in the hole and I didn't even do that I don't know if I remember this Yes, and I that was so ridiculous. I went to the hole for me to do anyway.  Wow That's good. I'm glad they changed back that one broke my heart. Yeah. Yeah, I know unless unless She's right. Okay. Well, this is not right right. All right, but you know what I'm saying Yeah, they just just like there's times when people go to gain trouble and it's not They have not they hadn't been they've had their hearing, you know, just sitting in there and they have to do it there Whatever And that being said sometimes, I mean, okay, you know, it doesn't mean it happens It happens with a lot of conversation And a lot of support, but um, yeah, it is we do it is not ever used as a punishment That's good. No, I just want to say like, I mean it's kind of back piggyback on what everybody here is saying um man, my kids Like needed to serve it as with me My my kids still talk about it. Like they still say, yeah, mom. I came, you know, come here son Connor I came over to you. Yeah, you did buddy. Thank you, buddy. You know, you got me through that like my kids saw me and um I saw them and I didn't have this when my kids when I was there I would not have been okay. And after I had my my little guy my my friend, you know, when I had him I just had him And uh, if I didn't have my business when he was a newborn in your room and I actually had special visits could use newborn So it's nice. I got like, hold on like just hanging out with him for a long time. And um, if I didn't have the visits I really don't think I would have made it through those last few months because it was just It was important for him.  Yeah Yeah, there's not here.   I just want to address the elephant in the room, which is the 90 million dollar facility That's been closed. Right. So we all agree that the building is crumbling. Yes. Yes And john and I talked about this the other day and when they There's a lot of things we all agree on right and that's one we all agree on And you're all wonderful people doing gorgeous work So we all agree that we want and we know who is in crcf We know the women what they're struggling with and what they need to heal, right? How they need to heal So What do we do help me help us understand how we can justify 90 million dollars on a facility When Yeah, I don't yeah When we have gorgeous ideas for what could help people and you I mean you could bubbled within 10 minutes of like We could do this. We could do this. We could do this.    Can I just say something briefly and I'm not I'm not I'm not important like these guys. I'm not like Well, anyway, you know, um, my whole thing is this so I Like, you know working with free her and you know, she's learning about some of the stuff I've been learning about, you know I really didn't even know what abolition was until I started Abolition I didn't really know what it was until I started working with them. Um, but anyway, this is a you know Where we're at as we're saying we don't think it's necessary at all. There's a cadillian other things you could do we have If we drew up a 16 page document of alternatives and involving things only that already exist in our state even You know what I mean? Like and then we have a whole another document of alternatives that could be done fairly, you know, like You know pretty streamlined, you know, you're not like totally out there and not super expensive not reinventing the wheel not You know, I mean not using a whole bunch of different service writers. Maybe using more service writers, whatever But the thing is this They're in my opinion, you know They I don't think there's any need for any building. I don't think we need to obviously the building is a stuff thing It's a crap it tears me down but There's all these other things we can do but I'm not Like I said, I have like Anyway, these are things that um, the legislature has that they've been looking over.  We're trying to talk to other representatives all these things We're going and testifying at state house and doing different things. Um, working with other organizations um, and just trying to Like rally and just, you know Build this movement up to the point where This case the state has to listen, you know, I mean, like we're trying to get it so that they maybe do pass these bills and that what we stall Sell them and then get some more time to get An answer today of a pilot program going instead.  Okay.  No matter what you do It's still a jail. It's still a facility. You know, I mean you are not solving The problem is sure it might look nice That's great. You know, and it might be okay while they're in there, but is it really? I mean No, it's not And everybody can say trauma informed or anything else as much as they want, but it's not It's just not. I mean prison is inherently traumatic. It's just is and there's nothing anybody can do about that I mean, I appreciate people trying to I don't think that you know, obviously you have to try to you're there You know, I'm saying like that. I think that's amazing But at the end of the day, there is nothing you can do About the fact that you're putting people in cages and saying hey, cool.  Sorry. That's my piece You I mean I think both of you are in stakeholders, right? You're in these conversations literally so Another question. I'm sorry. Um, it seems like I've been hearing when you talk and it seems like you've been talking about personally talking about like Why is there a person and then specifically the stuff about the children and like doing the thing with the character stick And it seems like the whole idea is about deterrence but once someone's done something that's considered legal then there's like The deterrence start to fail and so then it's like it's there's no good way to handle that situation And it seems like the problem from the beginning is like Nobody, you know, when they make it law and say you're going to go to prison They don't expect anyone to break that law. And so they haven't like thought about right what's going to happen So it's really helpful. They hear people talking about like what should be happening after because all that emphasis is on oh no one's going to do it Yeah No, I just thought that all of the programs that you have described That you folks are all involved in These programs pertain to to me. Maybe I'm just stating the obvious But these are not just programs for incarcerated women. These programs stand on their own And and that to me it seems like that that might that's part of the shift you know like All of these programs I mean you must have other people who are not incarcerated in these programs Absolutely, we the sooner they get them when they need them Yeah, then we've done it Yeah, so like when I think about the 90 million dollars in a new facility um A new facility might afford us the space to have more programming more training um More mental health services treatment services But and there's still once they get released they return to the communities that have those gaps in services So until we address the gaps in community services, which I think will help on the front end too So we won't need As big of a prison then it Stops that pipeline And For those that do end up incarcerated at least we know they're returning to a community with robust resources I think one of the reasons why DOC is looking to chitin and county is because of the service providers But that perpetuates the problem Because that keeps the service providers concentrated in chitin and county. Yeah, it doesn't work for vermont. It doesn't work for vermont I mean If I could wave a magic wand I would love to see smaller regional transitional Places So that's so those conversations And I don't know are you feeling like the the the DOC gate moment of the recording are we feeling that is that something now? And I have reasons why that Like I get worried about smaller, right? I worry about You know you've touched on The inherent risks of being incarcerated Yeah, I think inside and I worry that smaller more isolated programs Have less eyes on them and less protective factors For the individuals there. Yeah, because Because that's a reality. No. Yes, isn't that now true of I was actually saying this to mary on the way in jail versus prison. Isn't that kind of the general deal like a jail is a little bit more out of the system and so I mean my daughter was incarcerated More than once and she said that jails were far worse than She thought that in vermont. It's all Yeah, so, you know, yeah Yeah, vermont, we don't have jails in prisons We have one we have correctional facilities with everybody all That's sort of the same idea. There's sort of like a little more local control and it seems more corrupt Absolutely Yeah, so that's another piece that vermont doesn't have is a lot of states have counting jail systems where folks go pretrial So that the folks that end up In facility are all sentenced whereas in vermont, it's Unified so Our sheriffs aren't running those county jails. They all go To the correctional facility So I I agree that Yeah, there are pros and cons to everything and when you Think about creating those regional places Then we run into the disparity of geography because you know, just like Depending on which state's attorney you have and which judge you have It also depends on staffing too I think what you're one of the things though that's sort of you're touching on I think though is that It's super complicated. Like there's a lot a lot of this there is no like Like we could go on well on this hand. We've got this look on the one hand. I mean your stance on abolitionism I believe with wholeheartedly On this hand and on this hand. I don't think we have the infrastructure So we spend 90 million on that infrastructure And then what happens to and then And then but then on that hand we have women continuing to live inside a building That's not million on a new building And I'm gonna say this to you or you're gonna say I don't know I don't know I don't I don't know that we have the infrastructure to do that I think like I think there's like I think sometimes we don't We know what would be best, but we also know what we've got and how do you make Like I don't know that we can always But you do know you do do like I feel like they were like, hey, you know come up with some pilot projects and so so so With our reentry pilot That that funding came from the legislature and act 183 for a three-year pilot for $300,000 Okay, year one is gone And we learned a lot in year one by having, you know, the transitional house and our employer partner with middlebury college But there were also a lot of challenges that came up that We didn't have the funding to fix Because no pilot is going to Be successful its first time out of the gate And so creating that runway to be able to try different things Is just not built into the system because It's a system of contracts and when you sign a contract with an agency you have to commit to deliverables For that contract and if you can't meet those deliverables Then you don't get the contract again.  I don't know as far as What their internal systems are for like staffing evaluation and things like that to See that they're Effective in their efforts um I think that could be something where legislature could help Um, but I also know with data Depending on what lens you're looking at the data through you can kind of spin it to Well, and that's like data is sort of the problem.  Um, because because What's your metric of success in a program and sometimes What comes up on a spreadsheet that sits on a bureaucrats desk Who has never worked with the population or met any people who lived experience Is not really what we think success is going to look like. It's not the same And so and that's just such a giant system problem Yeah, I It some days really feels insurmountable. Like how do I how do I make someone understand that? You know the program I used to work at that was closed like Like if one woman got out of there Found a home got her kids back had a job for five years and has not been incarcerated since like that's success even if Five women had to do it three times to make it work You know like to me it's still wonderfully successful and joyful The docy did not agree that program no longer exists So Heartbreaking it was heartbreaking in that program. Oh like to be able to have seen it open and closed is absolutely Oh Like that it's been three years. I'm still not over it Like I'm literally sad every day that I don't have that job anymore Here's the thing that I mean does anyone know what the average length of stay and substance use treatment in the state of vermont is What's that? Do you know how long people in vermont can access treatment for substance use disorder? Do you Does anyone know 14 14 days 14 So if there's one thing if there is one thing we all can do we can be advocating to our legislators that there needs to be increased opportunities for treatment in the state there's currently Four sites in the state that women can go for substance use treatment if they have Children between if they're pregnant or have a child stage of five they can go to residential treatment at lund with their children That's the agency I work for that's an amazing program. That's the only long term Only one left only one okay anyone else can go to valley vista or serenity for 14 days And there's often a waiting list It used to be there used to be a program in rattle girl called tapestry that women had the opportunity of going for a year Three months or 30 days and there was a step down program that they could transition into upon completion Of the program they found mold in the building and they had to shut down the building and then they never at that program never Remember we have a very open place for 90 million dollars right there Right So what do you how do you make sense of it in your own rise? You know you you we all agree on so much So then how do you sit in those meetings? That's what I I you know, how do you do it? Well, I mean it's or it's your sphere of influence You know like that's my opportunity to use my voice So I feel obligated to use it even if the ultimate decision Is to build this new facility Then I want to make sure it's the best facility we can possibly build if that's going to happen Then I'd rather I have my input included than not included But like I know when it comes to discussions over treatment I feel like There's a lot of passing the buck Because you know the the substance the treatment places will say well, we're mandated by insurance And insurance will say well, this is what the best evidence based Research shows is two weeks to stabilize So I feel like until there is consensus and there can't be An off-ramp For someone to escape accountability We're not going to see a change And that's like just just to throw it out there. I was like a little extra. It's only two weeks and there's a wait list for it So like you could overdose while you're on the wait list. Yeah, and at the end of those two weeks You can leave to the streets. Right. Yeah. Oh, and I mean I like Not not for nothing. I have 33 people in shelter right now and four of them Were released from treatment to nowhere Yeah No, and that two weeks you only talk about your substance use you don't talk about the underlying issues Why are you using why you use those substances in the first place? Is there some able that you folks all have to get it sounds like you sort of sound like remember the Um When the police departments didn't speak to one another across the country And so the criminal could go to this state and do all sorts of bad things and They'd show up in another state and nobody would know. I don't know. That's a probably a terrible analogy, but You all are doing all these great things to get dead, but I think you were saying that um You don't really like the follow-through from a person like the child on through like you're not hearing about these people among yourselves is there a Is there something Some way that your data can be shared and is there anything there that Makes all of you speak together and say, oh, yeah, I know joe. She was here last year I mean in the Here's the thing what like, you know Again No one person can do everything. We all have to think of what we can do I know for me I can show up every day at that facility And gives my all to the women there each day Be present for them Be respectful of them and their You know and that we can we inside Can work with each other even though we work for different organizations with different funding streams and all that We can I can snub by heather's office and say I had a weird conversation with so-and-so. Did you notice anything going on with her today? She could be like, oh, yeah She had this thing happen and she's You know, I saw her a little while later and she had worked through it and she's okay. Oh, okay We're like, yeah, she got really bad news. Maybe you could check in, you know, so like we have the ability To do that and that's what we can show up like That's what we could show up each day And do and advocate when we can, you know, but number one But again, it's It's not built into the system structure It happens because of who we are And I'm wondering that you're so caring and talking to one another like that It just seems in 2024 that there could be some data access On people who are having difficulties and we could help them better Simply in dark ages In a way, you know, we we do it Better for unhoused people. They think a little bit better because we have a statewide system called the Homelessness management information system. Oh h.m. Is That uh, you know, every provider in the state has access to and we you know Put our case notes in there and do whatever and you can look up your client see who else they've worked with contact people their releases but that doesn't Unfortunately cross the barrier to do see because of privacy like And honestly that I I feel okay about that because people deserve to Leave incarceration and leave incarceration if they you know, if they want to Yeah, so I because we have presented incarceration in such a horrifying way that Right Right. I just I mean, I do wish there was a way to provide some continuity of service without Without making feel it people feel like we are not respecting their privacy or autonomy But um, right now we don't we haven't figured it out yet. No, so I'm working on it That said I do sometimes say to people. Hey If you were in crcf, did you work with kids apart? Can I email jess and sometimes they say no and sometimes they say yes and then we can Then we can sign release and then we can sign releases. It's a process. Yeah, but then but we can Thank you guys for having us and listening and being involved I'd like to say that I the amazing amount of wisdom Is there thank you for sharing with us And I I feel like you're disruptors You're disruptors Yeah Because you're making connections and you're making connections right at the heart level And you you had a conversation amongst yourselves And we we we were honored And just listen to this conversation and draw off wisdom. So thank you As we move around the state, we're hoping to connect with More organizations that are in different corners of the state And one of the things that I would like to see And I've talked with Heather about this is gee, there's an organization in Maine That's seems to be light years ahead In this same work Those two how come Maine and Vermont don't know that? And they're and you prove right here that it doesn't happen within a state itself as small as Vermont is So we really need to all kind of come together In those connections and continue to make them and continue to have panels like this One last little interesting thing on that though like a lot of the work that's gone on in New Hampshire and Maine has happened as a result of the work in Vermont because the the women's services in Vermont began in 2003 and there was a And Vermont DOC had a director of women and family services And all of these programs began when the Dale facility Open which was the first facility for women in the state of Vermont. So we You know, so the Vermont sort of piloted these women's services and then Maine and New Hampshire were able to say, oh my gosh, look what they're doing and then they took it further and now we're we are Continuing to play catch up, but it was to play catch up because the director of women's services That position went away for a little while Did in New Hampshire when they saw what Vermont did they put it into legislation to have that be required So there are ways that you know, we do have to keep continuing to look around us to see what's going on and what we can improve on Thank you all


What's up everybody Jason here for Jasper's case breaks calm We just sold out another pack filler to give away a thousand dollar divisional basketball mixture spot with this 2021 Penini prison multi-pack cello one-pack break number 148 So first we'll randomize cuz we're named a team to show the hits out Then we'll come back and randomize all the customer names, but we don't need to guys cuz will actually just bought this out himself So he got all the spots all the teams so that means will will win the spot And he has a pack filler to go along with that so Let's quickly do the pack filler for him and congratulations. Well, you want to spot in the divisional and of course since we'll sold this out This is also a promo break. So he's gonna get 30 entries into the promo to have a chance to win back a couple thousand dollars potentially So let's just do a quick pack filler for him and then we'll move on to the next pack filler As well. So the Andre Hunter Little Jaren Jackson, Jr. We got a Jada McDaniels Jalen Smith and an Anthony Edwards rookie Nice little sequence right there and Xavier Tillman Here we go So appreciate it. Well, so congratulations. You did get that divisional spot We also have another one that sold out a little bit later that he also sold out We just got to go in order by our break So coming up next guys is the next pack filler to help fill up a mosaic pick your team Which also will slow it out. So appreciate it guys


Good afternoon. We're getting towards the end of the conference now, so if you're anything like I am, we've been through quite a lot of technical presentations, so this one should be a little bit slower for you, a little bit easing towards the end of the wind down time if you like. So let me introduce myself first and give you a bit of background about me and then that will lead to the understanding why I wanted to talk about this stuff as well. So my name is Glenn Bowden, I work for HP. I work out of HP Healing and Professional Services in EMEA and my job is, I'm one of the senior solution architects there as well as running the solution integrators team, so that it's a highly talented team of individuals that go and do their deployments based on the designs that I work with. So my background is technical, I'm a technical person, but this isn't a technical presentation, so this is a fairly high level presentation and this is about the other stuff that breaks open stack rather than the technical bits. I think we've all learned already how we can break open stack with the technical stuff, so this is the other bits that doesn't necessarily get thought of when you go into these projects, but are the things that can trip my team up and make us look bad because they haven't been thought of before we get in there. So we've all, I'm pretty sure heard the analogy of big business being likened to an oil tanker, which is what one of these things is. And if you look at it in the bay, you can see them sort of floating about out there right now. There's a lot of criteria about an oil tanker that maps to a business. So the first thing is the very slow moving. So if you imagine a large enterprise and HP is one of those with over 300,000 employees, doing anything can take time. It's a very slow moving process. These things are slow, the business is a slow. You need to plan ahead for every manoeuvre. So if you're trying to turn one of these things, it's not an easy thing to do. It's extremely heavy, it's moving at around 14 to 15 knots. You need to plan ahead when you want to start moving this thing. And it's exactly the same in business. If you want to change the direction of the organization, if you want to change your strategy, you want to change your process, you need to think carefully ahead about the impact that's going to have. And one of the reasons for that is once you start to turn it, once you start that process, the momentum will carry you on. It's extremely difficult to back out of it again and go in a different direction. It's not at all agile. We've all been in the situation where we've been in businesses that have started down a particular path and we can see that we're heading for a car crash, but it's very difficult to stop that sometimes. It takes a lot of work to execute any changes on this and it takes a lot of work in any business to make the changes. And the reason being is because there's a lot of stuff there that carries you forward all of the time. Things like the culture, things that you're used to, things that you understand already and people are in their comfort zones and they don't want to jump out of that. It takes a lot of work and efforts to manage the people out of what they already understand and into something new. There's lots of rigor and bureaucracy that goes into any kind of change. There's all processes. I mean, anyone that's been in a large organization and I felt it in HP, there's a ton of forms to fill in, right? To do anything. If you want to request a VM or something, then there's a process to follow. If you need to get your badge replaced, there's a process to follow. So there's lots of bureaucracy that wraps around this stuff and it all goes into managing the changes, not just from a technical perspective but from a process perspective as well. It takes a pretty large crew to operate one of these things. Not as big as you'd expect actually but it's still pretty big. Far bigger than the kind of alternative transports out there. And so you're trying to get everyone to pull in the same direction which is inevitably going to have some conflict or other. I've never met a large team that everyone gets on nicely and everyone's pulling in the same direction. It's incredibly difficult to manage. What people don't mention so much about these things though is they are incredibly stable. They're very difficult to sync. Not impossible as we've noticed but incredibly difficult. So they have some things going for it. And actually that stability comes from all of those things above that we're complaining about. So that's slow moving, that being able to turn and understand how you're turning, the bureaucracy around changes. That's what keeps the thing stable. So that's a large enterprise. Now I've been with HP since July so I've had recent experience of salespeople coming to visit me as well as going out and supporting our own teams. And this is what they're trying to sell. So when we talk about OpenStack, and we've had it many times this week I'm sure already, we're trying to sell agility into the business. We're trying to say to the large enterprises and the large corporations, actually this is what you want to be. You want to be this agile thing. You want to change all your processes. You want to throw them away. You want to become this. So what's the characteristics of the speedboat? Well, it's extremely fast moving for one. It can outrun a tanker. It's agile and can change course very quickly. So it responds to the environment that it's in. It's able to change momentum, change direction without too much effort. It's just the turn of a wheel essentially. And it does it quickly and it can respond quickly. That means it can react to whatever's happening around it. It can react to the way the water is. It can react to other vessels in its way. And it can react to weather conditions and things like that. There's a very simple and lightweight control structure in a speedboat. There's a stick to make it go faster and there's a wheel to make you turn. That's generally about it. But if you don't know what you're doing, you can cause quite a lot of havoc with those two controls. There's limited planning involved because of that lightweight control structure. It's very easy to change that direction. It's very easy to sort of maneuver it around. And it's managed by an extremely small crew. There's very few people have to fit in one of these things in order to get it to do what you want. You can have a single person running around in this. And this is, again, what we're being told by sales organizations that our business needs to become.  And it doesn't necessarily gel. These things are risky. I did have a video, but I don't think I'm allowed to show it, so I haven't. But it's very easy to sync one of these. It's very easy to go over a wave and roll it. It's not a particular comfy ride either. This thing will bounce around and you'll get thrown around inside it if you don't quite understand how to control it properly. So we can see the kind of comparison between the two. The large enterprise and the tanker and the small startup team that we're being told we need to become in order to be successful. So I talked about boats. What about OpenStack? That's what we're here for. So OpenStack is an enabler for that agile and dexterous team, which is the speedboat analogy. And it's something that we're being told that this is, if you get this, then you'll become an automatically an agile organization. You'll be able to deliver immediately and fast. And you'll hit all your targets. OpenStack very much allows us to focus on time to deploy and react to things. It's talking about being able to deliver VMs or compute resources and storage resources and networking in an extremely rapid manner. The focus isn't on stability. Anyone that's run a large OpenStack cluster will understand that painfully. There's limited rigor around it though. You go into the horizon or you go into the API and it's very easy to spin this stuff up. There's no hoops to jump through in order to get there. But it doesn't fit into price requirements. And the thing we forget is all of that stuff we talked about with a tanker, that all existed for a reason. It came about for a reason. Generally because the organization had felt some pain, lost some money, failed in a project and so put things in place to protect themselves against that happening again. So all of that rigor was born out of pain usually. And it's very difficult to get rid of something that you perceive to be preventing pain. And that's what we struggle in the organizations for. So we need to understand why those things exist. We're trying to get the tanker to use to act and behave like a speedboat. The trouble is if you shackle a speedboat to an oil tanker, it takes on the characteristics of the oil tanker. I couldn't find any pictures of speedboats. You have tugs I'm afraid. But you'll take on the personality of the tanker. It's not that the tanker will suddenly get quick. That's not going to happen when you shackle a speedboat to it. What's going to happen is you're probably going to sink the speedboat because it'll be pulling against the leash all the time. So what happens is your speedboat and your agile team that you now have, despite the fact you have the great tool in OpenStack, now has reduced speed again because you still have all the same rules and processes wrapped around it. You have reduced agility. It can't move in the same way because you still have to fight through everything that's been wrapped around it. It's still very unstable. Just because it's anchored to something that is stable doesn't mean it's going to, it's stable in itself. So the process of reacting quickly but an organization that can't react to keep up with it actually causes more instability and causes more problems. The direction of the speedboat is very much dictated by the tanker in this case. So your small and agile projects are still going to be forced into line with the rest of the organization. So the enterprise needs to change. We need to change that tanker into something else. And we're being told by the sales teams that what we need to do is change into the speedboat. We want lighter weight protocols for change. We want those small changes that can be measured and undone. This is all stuff that we've been hearing all week and things that OpenStack can actually do. But how do you get that big tanker from this large mess of rules to something a little more, a little more agile? So let's have a look at the release process. Anyone that sort of looked at platform as a service or DevOps or anything like that will recognize the kind of software release process we have here. And the little clocks are where we come up against time bumps. This is where we kind of slow down things and where this, our tanker processes if you like, actually bring the speedboat to a halt. So you can see we've got one there between design and develop, another one between develop and test, and another one before release. Now they're the brakes that were purposely put in to prevent the pain that we talked about earlier. That's what's stopping us just leaping off a cliff. And that's how businesses view this. If you go to an enterprise and try to get them to reverse some of this, that's how it feels to them. So what we've been doing is applying Kanban rules to this. So show of hands and to prove you're still awake and listening. Who understands Kanban? Who's heard of Kanban? Cool. Good. Fair of any. Excellent. So it's a process that essentially is limiting work in progress, right? So when you apply Kanban to something, you list the stages that that thing has to go through. So the stages of the pipeline and the workflow. And then you limit how many can be in any one of those individual stages. And the idea of that is it demonstrates to you how long something stays in that stage and now identifies it as a bottleneck. So if you start putting things through the processes, this process very quickly shows where those bottlenecks are and how they're slowing your process down. Because you'll end up with queues waiting to get into that process because things are going through it so slowly. The typical things are approvals and change advisory boards and that sort of thing. And I've got an example of where this goes particularly badly. So this is something I went through before I got to HP with another organization. They required an application. Nothing particularly clever. Fairly simple application. So a web server with a Tomcat back end. They wanted a virtual machine on that company's private cloud. So this is something that was running OpenStack. They installed OpenStack. They brought me in to bring up their cloud and they said right this is going to be great now. Here we go with our agility. So the user needed a user ID. Then he needed a business unit sponsor to actually approve the user ID. Then 19 needed to approve what he was doing. And then he needed to finally provision the VM. Then of course he had to buy the software which meant going out and getting quotes and payment and licenses. Roughly how long do we think this takes? So the user ID took six weeks from requesting it to actually getting it. So this is his speedboat going through mud at this point. He needed a business unit sponsor. That took another three weeks. He needed IT approval. He never got it. At the time when I moved on for that organization and started a new project they were still waiting for IT approval to spin up the first VM on the OpenStack cloud that was in there for weeks. The provision of VM itself would have taken five minutes. Had he ever managed to get that far? Obviously then to get the software we go through the usual quote process of two weeks. Paying for the software, it never happened. Nine weeks it took us just to get the invoice raised and we still never actually got it paid for. Deploying it about 20 minutes. So you can see where the agile bits are there but you can also see where the rest of the pain is. When we deployed it on a public cloud just to prove that the software worked it took us two days. That's from deciding which public cloud to go on getting the software and standing it up and actually having users on it doing something useful. So let's have a look at how we could have fixed it. What the organization then had to address and I came back to this organization and helped them do some of these things. And it's really simple stuff and we ran it through Kanban and we identified where these stages existed. The need for a user ID just to create something on the cloud when they already had Active Directory in there. So why not just link the two together? That was a bit of a no-brainer. The business unit sponsor, well you have to enable the users and trust the users if you're going to give them the power of agility and the power of a cloud. It's no good giving them all this power to stand things up very quickly and then taking away any control by saying but I have to get this one individual to approve everything you do. So what we did is develop sensible budget thresholds. You could request resources and services up to a particular limit and then once you hit sort of budget limits then you had to go and get approval for that. So what we're trying to do is take the things that we protect us from harm the things that keep us safe like we've talked about before but make them more reasonable and make them more meaningful in the new sort of more agile world. They needed IT approval, why? You have a cloud you shouldn't have IT approve anything. If you give the people the possibility to do something on a cloud then you should just let them get on and do it. If you give them the ability to break something you've probably done it wrong. Provisioning the VM, we stuck it at five minutes because it was fine. For the software side of things we implemented software catalogs so that they could select the software from a catalog themselves. As it turned out the thing that they were requesting quotes for and the things it took weeks to get a quote and even more weeks to actually pay for it when it eventually did happen they already had on a catalog they'd used it elsewhere in the organization so it would have been a simple case of going back to the original business unit that had this and using that process but because the catalog didn't exist and they weren't agile in that way they had no idea and then deploying the software obviously there's a bunch of tools you can wrap around that you can either have heat to stand up image is answerable and chef to provision the software and the licenses etc so we can we can speed things up and this was all about trying to make those those checks and balances still meaningful but a lot more rapid and a lot less painful. So we need organizational change to get these businesses to behave the way we want them to not just technical change when people get given open stack and told that this is something that's going to be solve all your business problems and give you the agility you need. It's you kind of end up in this place where if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail and that's that's not really working so we have to understand that enterprises are enterprises they're not going to change the personality just because we've given them a new tool we need to be mindful of why previous checks existed so as I said that they were there to stop paying that's not necessarily saying that they're all reasonable because people sometimes will produce resources for bureaucracy for bureaucracy sake I worked for a public sector organization in the UK putting open stack in for them and in order for me to purchase a single network switch I had to go through nine change advisory boards which we then expedited down to four change advisory boards they met every 30 days but not in the right order so it ended up taking us nine months so just because it exists to solve pain it doesn't mean it exists in a good way you need to ratify it and analyze it and sort of break it down to something that's meaningful and is useful for you you can break your organization down to smaller teams though just because it takes a large team to produce a bit of software it doesn't mean you can't start breaking that software down into individual components and this is where things like Scrum come in whereby you can break into the far smaller agile teams and develop and deliver software in a far more agile way and there's been lots of talks this week about continuous integration and continuous deployment so I won't go into the technical details here but you can start breaking your organization down into those teams taking a large software team and breaking them into individual components delegate responsibilities to the small teams though it's no good giving them the tools to react quickly if they have to ask permission every time they do deploy well-tested changes so introduce things like unit testing and the ability to report on that testing but in a manner that can be reversed so that can either be through a patch that can then be backed out of or what's more and more common these days are things like blue-green environments so what a blue-green environment is for those that don't know is you deploy into a pre-production environment you test it to make sure it's all as you want it to be and then you fail over the IP addresses and the load balancing to that environment and it becomes your production environment and you do the same thing again what happens then is if you hear an issue you just fail back to the other environment again and it's very easy to reverse it was originally called red-black because it came from Netflix but the enterprise doesn't need to be a speed but we don't need to change an enterprise into this agile thing that sales are promoting for us all the time but at the same time we do need to move away from the ideology of being a tanker and this slow moving thing so we need to compromise so what we're actually looking for is one of these thank you any questions if there are any questions then there's a microphone around nope great thank you very much