Hello everybody. If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my only co-host. It's Tyler. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Yeah, it's gonna be here. Good to see everybody. I'm hoping eventually that I can just trick people into a sort of barrenstain bears type of universe situation Where they think that you and Tom are the same person. It'll be like the end of 30 Rock So I'm excited Also joining us this week first time we've had her on the show and I couldn't be more excited Alice from Goonhammer Alice How you doing good to have you on the show? It's a pleasure to be here. Hey everybody We are going to be going through all of the our hopes our dreams our wishes our wants our tinfoil hat theories There you go, yes Indeed yeah about the upcoming balance change Slash FAQ if there's two separate things or one thing who knows I don't know until it happens But I guess we'll find out So we're gonna do that as our main topic, but of course first some news News rumor engine It certainly appears to be Our least favorite faction I'm gonna rope you in Alice. I'm just gonna assume that you don't like fire slayers either. Is that a safe assumption? It's a pretty good assumption. Oh, right Three for three. Sorry fire slayers players. You should be used to it by now Yeah, fire slayers. Yeah, is that what we're saying here totally. It's a fire slayer. I had no question in my mind. Yep. Oh So This is there. I called the the one new character with the item F, right? I'm gonna do the same thing again I'm just I'm on this train. I think what we're gonna get is they're gonna try to roll the books out quickly Because they want to get like clearly the books are very different, right for 3.0 and so my suspicion is We're gonna follow this this Nurgle pattern for the most part, right where it's like a character and then your 3.0 book And so I think this is a new fire slayer's character thing. That's my guess That's my guess checks out. Yeah I will say that For the fire slayers, I was completely stumped as we went through the what we what we hoped So Alice, here's my question if you were gonna make one change and only one change to fire slayers in the new book What would that one change be? Volkites need to be overhauled or severely underpriced a If I'm remembering the correct one because unfortunately all their names are very similar They are guard foot troops that don't have guns. That's the one. Yes. Okay. Thank you I'm starting to remember them. Yeah. No, the Volkites. It's it's like there's not really any reason to take them the The shooty boys got a little bit better with the with the Monster meta and all that So there's at least a reason to take Take some of them those but the the hearthgard berserkers. They just do the same job in every way And but better. Yep Agreed. All right, like they're they need to they need to pull and I mean This isn't exactly the same but they need to pull an iron jaws, right and all I mean by that is When you look at the iron jaws book the book as it was published Not the FAQ where they decided to ruin the beautiful balance that existed between the three units, right? But all three units had a clearly defined role, right? Like there was your sort of melee hammer your fast Like chaffy kind of anvil and then your your big Spongy lots of wounds anvil right they could refresh really easy It was just it was so easy to read what each of these three melee units or foot units, I guess whatever you want to call them we're supposed to do and Fire slayers have the same they almost have the same number of kits. So there's no reason we can't make an interesting army out of this Right. Mm-hmm. Like we we we can do this It's just just actually think and define the roles. That's it. That's all there is to it Certainly and if there's an army that's lacking a lot of What one would consider core roles in other armies fire slayers are definitely up there. Yep Completely agreed. All right. What else we got in the news? Yeah, another engine the avan engine has started up So we're gonna get if I read it correctly a image per day over the next 24 days Yes Starting with what looks like craft worlds, of course have been much desired long desired by the 40k community a little yeah circle craft world image a little iconography going on with today's Article drop. So that'd be cool to see and we'll get that in the new year early in the new year Some kind of 40k elf thing I agree with your decision and here's what I'll say when we do these advent calendar things often times They're doing 25 images. We've had some pretty clear signals like last year I will remind everybody that we got the very clear. Oh, we've got a witch hunter coming Right. We saw Jelsen Derek or whatever his name is the dude from Kerr City The the box that we dare not speak its name, right? but But you know that was revealed in this sort of advent calendar thing so Just saying I want to see some cool stuff Because my hope is that like although I would rather they roll books out quickly and do the kind of one model with them My hope is we do get a couple interesting line refreshes Skaven I'm just saying if I had to pick one randomly just completely just total dart at the wall random choice Probably Skaven just saying All right.  So Let's see battle forces going on pre-order this Saturday We've got what four of them. I didn't let's look here. Yes. We have four of them. We heard the price 10 us Yes 130 for Maybe the one British person watching us. Oh, yeah, sure And in in GBP Yeah, so like 210 was honestly a little better than I was expecting is is my honest answer I think especially if you're purchasing from somewhere where you've got 10 20 25% off as as many places give That's a pretty square deal to get into one of those armies. That means you're picking up Most cases will just round it off and say about a thousand points of each army I understand there is actually variants there some are a little more some are a little less And you know you're getting about a thousand points your army for Not a bad price, frankly and and especially in the case that as I've said before the sole blight Gravelords one is a standout as it's just full of kind of everything you would you would probably want anyways I mean the slanesh one is questionable because I don't know how much you want to purchase any slanesh stuff I guess if you love the models rules will change over time. That's what I'll say. Yeah, we we have an analysis on the We we did an analysis on the on the different boxes and my general consensus was aside from the soul of like Gravelords one being phenomenal The other ones were pretty solid if you wanted to start those factions But I had to look at it from the perspective of not how good the factions were it's do you want to start it? Yeah, which is a fair lens right like if somebody really loves slanesh the reality is look rules come and go I've had my slanesh army since 2006 It's on the shelf right now because I don't like the way it plays It's been on the shelf before it'll come back out again You know like if you truly love an army if you truly love the models and you really want to collect This is a good way to do it period It is Yeah All right, so we had that We had an article on a bunch of beautifully painted dragons Including one mr. Vince Venturella's Amazing buddy. I don't know what you're talking about. I've never I've never seen these dragons before. No, thank you Dragons Never heard of them Yeah, it was super fun to paint this guy. This is my He can act as either Crandis or Karzai because that's me. I always do that whenever they make a dual kit I always sort of like mesh the two together so I can just kind of use them either way This is my take on that But this guy obviously was a lot of different conversion work and stuff like that But I was glad they put it in the in the article. He was super fun and I liked him the The funny thing I will say about him is obviously mine has different Bracers than everybody else and some people probably want to know like where the individual bits came from the bracers come from Sigmar himself as it were because the sigmar like bust statue that's in war cry who's holding the hammer He has bracers on the front of his arms So I took those off hollowed him out and then those became my dragons bracers. So there you go And though if you've still got that kit sitting around it fits fine Alice you got any interest in a stormcast army or dragons Yeah, I've Been interested in looking into because of the undrafts to anybody who knows my Username on goon hammer and on Twitter Ragnarok angel. I love rain angels and any angel iconography is an easy sell for me if there were Units that had wings like that not the Zephyros or whatever the kind of pointy bits. I think those look like The funnels from Gundam which is cool, but not what I'm looking for then I would probably be on board So this is the second stormcast army. I've done the original stormcast army I did back when the game launched was like a Brett cast army So it was all Bretonian themed and I used the feathered wings from The jukari kit that comes with like either feathered wings or or leather wings, whatever they are And those fit perfectly on the back because I loved like I was in I totally you and I are same page simpatico and Like my original stormcast army. I have 18 Prosecutors all with in groups of three with those feathered wings So you can like I it's only I guess the prosecutor sadly is probably the only one you can use and those don't really make a whole army But but hey, there you go. So I will take that down as A note and the cool part about those wings from that jukari kit is you can always find them because the box comes with both the Like I said with both the bat wings and the feather angel wings or whatever. So scourges there you go That's what they're called scourges is the name of the kit and so somebody always has extra wings, right? Like no matter which one you like somebody's tossing the extra wings on eBay, you know, I'm saying So because you can only use one set with your your unit. So There you go All right Okay, let's see I think that was about it that I had we wanted to do a little bit of event coverage A little bit a little bit here. Sure. What do you got? So first off I don't I am officially Resigning from my self-created duties of keeping track of this calendar Events feel free to take the floor and give me a hard time about it. You're fine. I've already beat you up about it And if I told you it's gonna be too much work Aos events dot or folks just check out the website Dan's already keeping track of everything. It's I just felt like Yeah, we were just creating too much busy work, but we will keep referencing, you know events that particularly standouts or Or that we're biased because we got our buddies doing it. What whatever reasons come to mind that we'll mention them So of course we have the us gt final happening this weekend I think that's going to be at the Warhammer Citadel in Austin. That's on right guys. Yep Yeah So I think Chuck will be there doing his thing with some others And uh, yeah, hopefully next year we're going to get some actual streaming of aos That would be incredible rather than just 40k Right well, especially with 40k stream games and like, you know in the top of one because the Ad mech player landed all their planes and shot up all the other people's dreadnoughts or whatever I think that was the thing that happened So sure, uh Yeah, I mean as two events look if you've got an event you want us to spruke shout it out You know hit us up on twitter or on socials anywhere like that. We're happy to shout out events We want to draw attention, you know point of fact the columbus You know here where I am in Ohio brew hammer guys reached out We talked about that a little bit And then before we could even really deep dive into it. I was like, yeah, we're gonna talk about it a bunch tonight And it already sold out February 5th and 6th Here in columbus. I'm very excited. So I got signed up as well as did tom. So Yeah, they hit they hit they opened it up and gone So maxed it out. There's it. There's an appetite folks um, unfortunately, uh, the um registration did close like three days ago, but uh, I will be at everwinter A gt in Boston, uh, which is gonna be not this weekend, but next weekend. Um, so if anybody's gonna be there, it'd be a pleasure to see you nice nice Uh, all right Yeah, I know we got chris said it sold out in 35 minutes. That's pretty good It's good There's actually a whole bunch of tournaments happening all over the world this weekend Yeah, the calendar is pretty full. Uh, just shout out to cabbage. I wish him the best with his BT this weekend has been doing a lot of work for a while now on that one We've got herner the man who needs no sprukeying to sell at his events, but Bring up registration tonight, right for holy wars. Yep February 13th. That's right That's the weekend after brew hammer actually it's like February 5th and 6th is brew hammer here in columbus and then the next weekend I'll be going to chicago for holy wars. Um, which was a good conversation with my wife, but she was like Yeah, I don't care. It's fine. Whatever. So I'm lucky to have a very supportive partner. So she was good I think it's the best In the notes here it looks like actually 7 p.m. So yeah 20 40 minutes The registration for holy wars will be opening and then finally just wanted to uh, send Congrats to all the folks who are on the 2022 team america Led by the man himself. Mr. Sousa. We got shan clark gabbing Anthony trance nelly marcella's on there amazon there roger Jeremy, I think jeremy vissier if i'm saying his last name correctly something along those lines I think he might be captaining this year. I think I saw maybe taken over for bill But yeah, really awesome team excited to see Yeah, just I think it's a seems like a great mix. I don't know who gabbing is you guys know what that is Gavin greger greger greger. No, never met him or if I have I apologize. I don't remember So But yeah, it's a it's gonna be a great team. So good forward to seeing what they accomplish That's about it Awesome. All right. Well, then let's spin this right into some pick of the week Alice You're up first What would you like to share with everybody? Would you like to spruke or Or share or are you just gonna you and tyler gonna both go for the goon hammer angle here?  I'll lock down. Alice. So back off You got to pick something else here Darn No, I mean goon hammers goon hammers what I got and I got I um, I got so much stuff going on there. Um, I I guess if I had to plug anything in particular It would have to be Dylan's Painting of the dragon. Uh, so we'll kind of pair it with what you got going on Um, and it came out wonderfully. I will put it in the chat for others others to see Um So, um, yeah, I'll share it out. Yes, absolutely. Oh, okay um But yeah, um, uh, it's uh, he did a great job. Did it all pretty much just primarily rely relying on four different uh contrast paints and Got an amazing result out of it. That's awesome. That's fantastic. Yes. It was very nice There's a lot of a lot of really impressive ones in there. I thought I love like I honestly expected them not to have many completed dragons because this kid is so big and then the article came out and I was like, whoa Uh, hey, awesome. Great. I was I was stoked. I love how many people jumped up and raised right Rose there we go rose to the occasion and to find the right past tense there Uh, Tyler, what do you show now? Yeah, so Well, obviously goon hammer like I told alice Lean this show I'm gonna do some blatant pandering here not to be fair I have been talking about goon hammer for quite some time on this show Yes, so this isn't unusual to be talking about goon hammer Yeah, normally spend on the website just the range that you guys cover. How long have you been writing over there? incidentally me, uh Let's see here. I I first got involved with them in It's 2021 now. So it has to have been mid-2018 Okay. Yeah I reached out they they didn't really have a primary age of sigmar person yet and Um, they said yeah, we're looking for somebody and so here I am a couple years later Yeah, I kept seeing this ragnarok angel name appear the most of any other name since I started reading the articles and yeah We started expanding out. We've gotten more people and we're hoping to keep expanding. Um, but yeah, it's it's kind of been um Me from the start and I'm very thankful for all the people who've signed on and collaborated and contributed so much to us It's awesome. Uh, so far It's a good example of the power of asking by the way like a lot of people it just sometimes it just you know Just ask so you never know, right? There you go I did want to mention two articles that uh, actually one Alice that I read I read your article I think maybe before I reached out to you the faction focus seems like you do a lot of these in-depth faction focuses Fokai whatever over there Fokai, I don't think that's a word eventually. You're my head now. That's pretty sure You can start calling your serious faction focus Uh on disciples of zinch. It was incredibly in-depth And yeah, just really I thought I did a nice job of kind of representing reality Where the faction is and the strengths of it and but also at the same time that as you noted It can be challenging to actually do well with like it's not exactly a plug-and-play army to play It's not no not by any means I say this is someone who zinch is where I came in to play and I um I I didn't do so hot when I first started And then I kind of switched over to sold like well legions of negash at the time um switched over to legions of negash and that was much more my play style and so um But now I'm kind of getting back into zinch Because I feel like a little more comfortable with the game and all stuff like that and Even knowing what I know now. It is still like a you know make one mistake and if your opponent knows what they're doing It's over type thing God definitely the thing I've always found the most fair about them. Ironic. I don't know if this is ironic, but the 18 inch kill zone Meaning that for the most part they just operate, you know You have to try to play around that 18 inch kill zone that they have with their spells They've got spell portal for like kairos's six mortal wounds They've got other tricks. It's a different story if they got arch on just getting shoved in your face But yeah, I've always actually appreciated that about zinch as a way to where I feel like that keeps them in check You know, they're not 24 inches or whatever with their spells No, it's definitely the case like as we'll talk about later when we get into the changes In the sort of the you know, balance changes and stuff the combination of range And mortal wounds are range and power like especially once you cross that 18 inch threshold It just changes the game like it's a totally different story, right? Something that has like a 12 inch dangerous attack versus a 30 inch dangerous attack is night day, right? And it's value Um, I wish they kind of I wish they thought about range more deeply and how they sort of allowed Death to be doled out. I suppose anyways Uh, we'll get into that. Yeah, we'll get into it. We'll get into it Last article we talked about it before the show this Vince and I we've been talking about this a little bit on and off I don't know Vince. This might be an interesting show for us to do the conversation around these, you know Three words that have an enormous amount of nuance and depth to them playing by intent Like how much complexity Get you know, it was represented by those three words The fellow's name was james kelling. He wrote a star competing playing by intent article on goon hammer That I highly recommend everybody check out It does an excellent job of going through again a lot of the nuance and kind of different elements Of this notion of playing by intent Some of it's not obvious. I don't think so I was what were your thoughts on this article. I loved it Oh, no, I I loved it too. It's uh, it's also kind of a great Testament to boon as a person who's a super nice guy. Um, and um, we actually kind of like Stopped me if I'm going too too far off, but um, it reminds me of A discussion we had amongst the core team Um at goon hammer was about like competitive play and like there's a certain There's a certain type of person who thinks that um, it's usually the people who are like Good or even great but not a top table player who thinks that competitive play comes from being cutthroat rules lawyery, maybe even cheating a little bit um, but if you If you get to know a lot of like the top players, uh, of which in 40k boon is definitely up there Um, they're actually usually super nice guys. Um, they just know the game in and out and they love Um, and they love playing a good game Um, and they don't really want to win by gotcha situations despite the the stereotype So the I mean the playing by intense stuff kind of works into that because it's like What is a a reasonable expectation about what someone meant to do versus Um, you know, just taking back because you made a mistake Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, just a lot of good examples that are it's a very in-depth article incredibly well done Yeah, and then I'd love to do a show on this sometime then Sounds like a plan. I'm in I think I think it'd be a really good topic To dive into depth rounds And yeah, it's a relevance and a lot of a lot of different things I know this came up a tommy, you know with with nash con a little bit Oh, sure kind of working through that to my l of that So, yeah, I mean even when you try to be clear sometimes you can get caught up in situations, right? And that's that's part of the challenge. Yeah, it's it's You have to that's why you you play in the best faith You can't but to avoid as much as you can right because it is Two different perceptions of reality colliding on the table, right? So yep Um Okay when it's it went down to a couple points winning or losing, you know tensions run high Yeah, yeah, especially on the on you know top tables when you're playing As it were when you feel that pressure of that you're playing for something, right? That game five table one two three kind of situation, right? All right, uh my pick of the week is going to be relevant to What we're talking about today In my pick is the honest wargamer from and his show Reviewing the state of the meta. Uh, he's building quite a data set over there Um, I want to have a conversation with rob about how to talk about correlation versus causation Uh, because he attributes far too much to causation when he should be talking about correlation and Stuff like that. So we need to have a data science conversation, but But rob is him is him making fun of the american scene part of that or not I don't care if it makes fun We deserve it in some cases. Yeah, that's all that's all just good good ribbing, right? I have no issue with that. That's just fun stuff Um, I mean the australians have had to endure everybody talking down to their meta for like years, right? And they don't seem to give the beginnings of a hoot about that. So Yeah, for the new australia. I'll gladly take it. Absolutely. I would be happy to be the new australia So The um, but he was a really awesome look like he and his data team, which I'm not going to remember everybody was involved I know kernel cabbages involved. I know there's um several other people who put together all the data and stuff They're doing awesome work and rob is doing a great job delivering it really having some nice visualizations Some nice segmentation stuff like that. I'd uh, I'd love to see a uh Even more data there like he has a decent data set when we're talking about uh, Kind of high level stuff, right? So like when you're getting into kind of The big picture But when you like segment and segment and segment and you get down to a very small number of matches played Sometimes you there's obviously still data skew there because you fall below statistical significance um But the and and kind of the but it's still good really interesting stuff like the win rates and Uh, the meta representation and looking at faction representation like who's taking what percentages of what sub factions And army is taking what percentages of what battalions that stuff is fascinating and like things We just didn't have access to before that I think intuitively we had a concept of so for example One of the stats that came out of it was 91 of all the lRL armies in his data set Which there was a decent number of of lRL matches played um Had uh battle regiment Right and and we're approaching one drop Um, so like they're the essential example of the power of the one drop right now in the game I mean there's probably no more significant example, right Right, so there's just a lot of really interesting things that some that will kind of go against your Uh assumptions some that will will you might that will be like yep. That's what I thought like He has by the way rob somebody needs to bust rob's chops Who's ever in the twitch chat rob was talking about like the six bad armies? I know it's not bad like poor performing like the the evil doers the sinners Okay, and he's trying to figure out what to call these things. He's like the bad six the evil six the the the sin Six and I'm like rob sinister six. It's right there brother.  That's it's a well-known thing the sinister six Sony was building trying to build a whole movie property out of it before that all train wrecked Like man, come on brother. I was like shouting at my computer screen He was so close when he had like the the sinful six or something. I was like, no Um, but no it was a super good show. So check it out links in the description It's a lot of really fascinating data and rob and the team are doing an awesome job at putting it together and delivering it So they're they're great great people for doing that. It's fantastic Yeah Yeah, I want to try not to point Nate mentioned the three tiers They tiered out everything into like those under 40% the sixth the top and then everything else in the middle And you can actually see how an army performs against the top middle and bottom tier, which was another cool thing I was gonna say the I think warhammer rob is what he gets referred to the other rob is doing the All the a lot of the work behind the scenes. So yeah, shout out to that guy. I don't know who that is There you go. Yes, it's a couple rubs all the rubs Um but uh But yes, so oh ziggie, of course. Yes. Ziggie is the other one. Thank you. MJ Pegasus. I appreciate that. Yes There we go. I knew I was forgetting. I like I said, I knew I was going to forget people and I apologize I he needs to do a show and get all of them on and just have a talk about Collecting the data and making the visualizations. I would love like a behind the scenes episode So there you go Okay at any rate. So check it out link in the description. All right, so Let's talk about some hobby time Uh hobby time Alice you've been working on anything. What's on what's on your desk?  What are you been doing? Yeah, uh, right now. I'm trying to work on um some morgast harbingers for everwinter um because um, I kept waffling on whether I wanted to bring Necropolis stalkers or morgast harbingers as sort of a hammer hammer for my list and the points work out about the same um, and uh after experimenting with both harbingers ended up feeling more comfortable with me. So um working on this Nice. Was it the flight? that tipped you over the edge? Flight and the 3d6 charge um Is big against certain things like if you're going against a uh demon prince of corn. Yep. Um and then um the the really big deciding factor for me was that um With the with uh, whether or not I would have them in one or two units With the stalkers I if I put them in one unit they become six six. Yeah Models coherency becomes an issue. Yep. Um, but if you reinforce morgast harbingers It's still only four. They count as two models apiece because they're six wounds Um, so there's a lot to like there. Um, so While I could split up the stalkers, uh, that means the kind of the buff coverage isn't as equal either Um, whereas at least for the harbingers I can pair them all up slap all the buffs on them and cinnamon nice nice So Plus I agree with brian s. He said the morgast models are super cool and I agree. They're all time bangers. Like obviously those came out Along with you know, negash back in the end times and they were just you know, the coolest thing right because they're They're these undead angels. I mean, that's what they are. So that was that was kind of the background behind them So the decision was made. There we go Um, and it's uh, it's gotta be one of the most uh kit bash models I've seen Um Used in terms of like almost everybody's converting them to demon prince or Um, or whatever. Yeah 100 percent Tyler, did you paint anything? Yeah, of course not I got some games in Just uh, usual storm cast testing as you know, I'm trying to figure out what the commission's gonna look like and how to avoid being Yeah, shooting essentially which I think I've got that cracked I've got a real simple solution for that. Tyler. You're ready. You just don't paint any shooting models. It's so easy Your primary shooting models, I'll say Yeah, yeah Got to enjoy the power of garrus a couple weekends ago. It's been been a couple weeks. Yeah, whichever I mean pretty much everybody knows now that garrus is crazy I think that dude's definitely a little too cheap right now. Yeah He's pretty much moving the move in the faction Yeah Geez you put it gives three prey doors or six much less I mean pretty much all you need is probably three and you know nine a blade of wounds and uh, it's wild Yeah, I did a test against a really good zinch list and they just kind of do like Cut down the mortal wound output dramatically And I had 10 protectors full fulminators to burn through pinks It was like three by 10 pinks burned through them pretty quickly It just yeah, it was it was more one-sided than I was expecting. We were both expecting So yeah garrus wild. Oh, yeah I try to I need to paint up Tyler by the way. Yes, absolutely. Yeah Uh, I tried out an avatis fire strike who was pretty awesome. I'm uh, I'm a stan. I'm on board now I've seen avatis in one tournament list. I think they went four and one. It was like last month somebody in the uk Amazing minus two rend on the four attacks Other four attacks minus one rend two spells two unbinds A d3 hill built in this is like got a 14 inch move, you know, it's it's a great assassin piece. It's good for savage spearhead It's got the damage output. It can probably kill a battle line unit and get the bonus point You know like an msu little four upset battle line unit could probably go smack that off the board get the bonus point as a monster Uh, yeah, all of that 325 Pretty reasonable I love it. The like I give us an item that can turn someone into a priest.  I mean, I'm almost done. This one's not on his base yet But I still have to like do some cleanup around the attachment on their base and stuff like that So but I've been working on the two of them and with those two finished It will bring me to uh to having my first 2000 points of my army done So now I can sort of Chill Relax a little bit tackle the elements that I want. There's still plenty plenty plenty To paint so much too much one might say turns out storm cast Real big range. I you know, I don't did you hear did you know this? There's a lot of units in that book turns out Uh, it's a real problem. The iron jaws were easier when I got to 2000. I was like, man, I'm good I got like everything I never want right here Got all the units Talked about how you can establish a baseline of your troops So like you kind of get your troop package figured out and then your heroes allows for such variety in your list building And your storm host and can really change up the nature of the list without changing the core troops Yep, uh, I mean, obviously my next mission is to get Uh A couple of dragon riders painted once I once I get my hands on those Because that'll be then another battle line option, right? So so there you go. Um, okay Cool. Well Alice Tyler Are you ready to strap on the tinfoil hats and begin the wild predictions Of what we're what we hope dream And fear to see in the balance slate slash faq. Are we prepared? I was born to be paranoid. There we go. All right Uh, okay, so let's go ahead and bring that up There we go looking good okay All right Cool. All right, let's start with just a little groundwork here. Let's lay some foundational so first principles These changes could come in the balance update or the faq if they're two separate things I don't know if they're two separate things. Maybe it's all one thing We don't know if they haven't been clear on it. They've just said we're getting a balance thing in december So we're not specific. I don't care which ones these come in they could be in either if it's two separate things or You know, we're we're we're squishing them both together for our predictions So you're not allowed to get mad at us. That's right. That's right I kind of hope that they do Uh do them as two completely separate things Because then if the first one comes out and it's not what we want it we can be like That was we weren't done. Uh, you guys you guys are getting mad about a half finished product. Exactly. Yes Exactly, right and we still have hope Uh, all right. So and then the lens through which we looked at this Casual conservative reality. What does that mean casual? We're going to examine this through a casual mindset What changes are good for the casual player for the majority of players? Most people are casual or at least casual leaning, right? Everybody has a little bit of casual a little bit of competitive in them, of course But the the number of like people who would self identify as hardcore competitive players It's obviously much smaller than the people who play this game casually And there are differences between what is good for competitive players and what is good for casual players Not always not everything's different, but there are differences. Some things are good for both Some things are good for one while hurting the other Uh Lumineth, you know, someone like like benj masava is on record of loving how lumineth plays And lumineth is a nightmare for your average casual player. Yeah, sure Yeah, it's way too complex. Like it's just yeah, I mean I can I can give you a I absolutely agree with that example, but we could also talk about something like iron jaws, right and and sort of melee alpha strikes right like most Sort of high-end competitive players in the list that they have they're not really scared of melee alpha strikes They're kind of hoping that someone would be foolish enough to melee alpha strike them, right? Like what a cool I get a free win, right? Yeah, yeah Um, but at my list is basically oriented towards that stuff, right, right exactly but like a You know for a more casual player Especially one who's not as familiar with maybe the way to set up or chat properly or build those kind of things out and respond It's it can be tough Right and and like that's completely fair by the way Uh that it's tough for them like if we have to be accepting that you can't build something for For both people every time that there will be differences. So anyways Yeah, I I mentioned to you I don't want to derail the conversation immediately on the first slide before the show but I do feel like there's quite a bit that we can unpack in this paragraph And you know like rob you mentioned rob on his show. He talks all the time about how he thinks that Generally as I what I hear from him regularly is that that which is good for the competitive scene trickles down to be Um good really good for the casual scene That might be a Tory rob would be behind trickle down economics like that's not surprising at all I gave you that opening I'm gonna let that slide by I'm I'm glad you took advantage of it. Thank you. I'd be disappointed if you But no, he's right about something which is like the main point. He's actually usually making is Balance better balance between the books is good for competitive and casual like and that I completely agree with There's almost no distance between that right if all books are on more equal footing if they all have better design If they all have better balance right Then guess what? That's better for everybody like on that point 100 degree There's no you couldn't shove a piece of paper between us on that like I you know what I mean like I'm with him Okay But it's not always the case with every design element or decision you can make that it's good for both sets So that's the trick all right Conservative just means we're taking a conservative mindset changes little as possible to have an impact while while minimizing secondary consequences That's all here. Okay in other words And that ties into the third point which is reality We're going to try to relive in reality of what we think they could change as part of this Right, we're not going to recommend a massive changes to the system or the ultimate ecosystem even if we think they're correct like I would love to say rip out the entire enhancement section start over like that would be my actual change I want Like if they should just put in a pdf, please ignore section 27.1 through You know 27 dot whatever right dot x rip it rip it out of the book and burn it Yeah, just like robin williams dead poet society tear it out of the book Yes And and start over right because it's it's awful like it's it's the the only bad part of the book And but they're not going to do that right? That's just come on now. We have to live in reality That's that's not the kind of changes they're going to make oh, I mean you can shoot you can choose to do so I'll make my own Yes Yes We'll live in our version of reality, which isn't the reality. We wish gw would live in but here we are We will I will warn you right now. We're going to push this just a little I hope they're aggressive with some things so I guess We have to move the overton window a little bit So and you only do that by by striking a little bit strongly so Okay Cool All right I thought we'd talk first About the 40k balance data slate just show everybody. This is what happened Okay So in 40k They had two armies that were way out of whack the deptis mechanic isn't jukari and those got Basically complete points overhauls. I don't have all those printed in here But they're they literally like here's a whole new point sheet for them more or less every unit And then with the other armies Not everyone obviously this doesn't represent every faction in 40k, but with a lot of the other armies They made some decent changes And some of them were rather specific like layman russe tanks Going to a two up they say from a three up right where they were right and So like some of that's very specific you look at necrons and it's like all of these things Uh got core as a keyword Which is meaningful in 40k terms, right? um the Uh, they the the knights actually got the monster ability to count as five models I was gonna say count count as five or ten models. What's that? Where are we seeing that? Somebody's copying homework. Yeah, exactly So, you know the point is is that like they oftentimes had these One big changes or something like that, but they did also go in and tinker with units Right, um limiting things to like two flyers That was a big overall change Right across everything. So there's both some general There's some specific like here's a new rule for the army like what chaos space Marines do Uh, and then there's some very specific unit changes, but it's light overall, right? Uh, I guess like that is to say it's not like you can fit all the changes in a box of text like this That's what i'm trying to say Sure. It's not it's not new codex levels. Thank you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There you go all right General items we're gonna have some discussion here because alice already sent me a nice nice piece of feedback on this But that's but I we've talked about this before but we're gonna talk about it one more time. Here we go Here's my changes. These would be my non specific army changes. I'm just gonna do these one at a time and then we can just kind of discuss My change in tyler. This is something you and I have discussed before save rolls of one or two always fail Unless your save characteristic is two plus in which case one's always fail Effectively we're capping saves at three up. This is the answer to save stacking Now alice you and I had a little conversation offline before the show About you know that is this too complicated? Should we just limit it at a flat plus one stuff like that? So what's your what's your general take on save stacking in this kind of situation? Yeah, I I mean I I haven't done the math. So I can't say exactly What it's going to be Is that I felt that The limitation should be plus one to to a save And that's that and then you factor in All the other negatives and you made the argument that rend then becomes too powerful And I think that that is a fair counterpoint The thing I do still kind of disagree with is that One of the points you made as a counterpoint was that It would it would essentially make saves function differently from everything else Because everything else you add everything up first or you add all the positives then the neg or you just Let's say you got negative to hit and plus three to hit you just do the math together But I do think a one and two to save is still different Failing is still different unless you're going to make you know one and two to hit a wound also fail Um, so I don't necessarily think that that the the fact that it's different. I don't think it's um necessarily indicative of that being a problem because uh, I mean now rend already works differently Um, you know, you're gonna have minus three minus four rend and nobody cares. Um Uh, so I mean it I agree. It's a problem. It's probably like the problem in the game right now um, but how exactly you tackle it With all these tools that they've now given people I'm not I'm not sure myself Yeah, it's tough and let me see if I could trot through my thought pattern here And and Tyler this is what you and I have talked about a couple of times. So feel free to add in My concern with if we just cap saves it plus one and I agree with you. We're both making differences, right? So it's just how do you want to be different? Right you're it's it's a completely fair point Alice, but like um The My my challenge with it is this if you cap saves to only ever being to add one into the plus column Effectively because that's what you're you're constructing right? You can only ever add a positive one, but any number of negatives could apply, right? There's clearly a lot more rend two Slash maybe even rend three sneaking its way into the game Uh, the recent two codices alone Seemed to imply that that's happening um and My fear is that will tilt too far the other direction now. I personally don't mind when offense wins I like stuff dying Right, like it's one of my favorite things is just to pick up your toys mate. Like I'll pick up mine. Okay so That's fine But it has some real deleterious consequences when it comes to things like especially utility heroes who are already pretty fragile As you were as as as they exist now They will evaporate under a system like that because one of the few things that can save them Is their ability to be and gather different bonuses that actually gives them a shot against rent It's one of the things keeping them alive right now and look all these problems are a big tangled web It's not like you can talk about one of these things without talking about other things We're all aware of that So, you know, I mean if you want to um, actually me in the comments, I don't care That's fine. It's nice of you to do that or more comments equals more engagement Um, but like we get it, you know all these things pull and pull it push at each other um but the The the problem is if utility characters can just drop dead because they have no way to really protect from shooting Which uh barring other system changes, right? You so if you did that alone, then you'd have to also go in and protect the utility characters in some way Which could be done, but it's going to necessitate other Fairly decent size changes, right would be my point. That's it's also going to up the power of shooting in general like right now Rent shooting isn't really part of the conversation as to what people hate like the shooting that Breaks the game right now is mortal wound shooting Right, which ignores this whole conversation Yeah And I was going to go into that. I I feel that you know, it's it's already a different issue with uh Sixes to do mortals, but that's a completely different conversation. We have it right right So like the shooting that everybody hates right now is salamanders long strikes sentinels bow snakes, whatever, you know like the uh That is because that mortal wound shooting is so powerful because it it Sidesteps this whole conversation and assassinates people. That's what it does Right, and that's not right and it's not fun And so but like the other types of shooting just sort of bulk shooting like bulk shooting old style You know bone split is throw a bunch of dice shooting Is effectively like who cares? Yeah No one's concerned about right now if there's no units like that that are that are talked about in the meta or played They don't exist Right because most shooting is just like whatever right It's the mortal wound shooting that makes all the difference. There are a couple things that still push on that Um bolt boys some ko units, right? But suddenly all of those things if saves get capped at only plus one become like Way more powerful like the if you don't then pull other levers is my point Just capping saves to plus one will skyrocket the power of shooting instantaneously Right and all shooting becomes insanely more valuable And we get a way shoot of your game Which I don't think is what we all want At least that's what the npe servers Surveys Right and that's the challenge Yeah, no, and I and I agree. I I don't have a smart answer to the problem It's a obviously it's a complicated problem It wouldn't be the predominant issue in the game if it was easy to solve right so and I certainly see alice you're like Look at this sentence save rolls of one or two always fell unless you save characteristic is two plus in which case one always I mean that's Maybe the best representation of this discussion that's not been having for some time, but look it's still Little complicated it feels like a lot of if then statements So, yeah, maybe we could we could probably I bet we could improve that but point being that yeah, it doesn't It's not as simple Maybe we can get it to where it would be as simple as everybody as most of us would like it But I don't think it's quite there yet Whereas the just plus one save is so simple It's so it's such an easy button to just hit and it's it does seem kind of obvious that that would be the thing to do but yeah Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up. I think it's a really good debate and I'm I'm I don't know it's anything I'm vince kind of said everything because we've been having this discussion for a long time I do I think my number one with this fact Is that they simply pull the trigger plus one save And the way that it's usually being talked about and then that kind of breaks the game Yeah, I just I fear the downside if they did that alone and then stopped and went like, okay It's good. And then all of a sudden it's just like, oh good. Now we're playing. We're going to just be playing 40k Yeah, no, and nobody wants that. That's why I'm playing it. Just like mark Right, right exactly exactly um And there's other ways that this could be construed some more complicated some less The the trick with this one is it is a super complicated issue. This is my best shot There are probably others my answer is really this is an extremely sticky game design point Right and part of the problem is around the way the math works on on saves Right once you can get to two up Especially if you can re-roll things The numbers just go haywire Right, you go from suddenly needing twice as many wounds to die to needing a hundred times or a thousand times as many wounds to die like the math goes Way off the rails, right?  Yep So that's as some people mentioned get rid of hero phase shooting. Oh, don't worry folks We'll talk about hero phase shooting later on, but we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna hit that where it lives Um, you know and and just to lay some groundwork here. Nick are said What about just remove mortal wounds on regular units only heroes? You need characters can do mortal wounds on hit wound the challenge is that's a huge change That's not conservative. It's not reality. It would mean altering a ton of books including things. They just published Right, like it's just it's too big. Could you do it? Maybe but it would have like untold Meteoric impacts to the game that I can't even begin to fathom right you you would you would change so much That's the point That's why we're being conservative with what we think they should do in these changes because you changing something like that First of all how you'd even do it. I don't know Right because you would just I you would just eliminate rules from a hundred war scrolls Some of which are just published It's probably it's deeply problematic, right because a lot of those units simply rely on that and are fine like our Vendictors doing a mortal wound on a six in melee causing an issue. No, probably not, right? Like that's probably fine All right, so anyways Um, okay ambulative destiny So My stance is either make it ignax. So it's a four up versus mortal wounds only Or make it a two plus but only on the last wound. It only applies on the last wound In other words, the reason I like that let me explain the math behind that one real quick Is if you make it a two up but only on the last wound Then it's always worth the same thing. It's worth about four wounds of saving on average Okay It reduces the scalability problem a 35 wound mega gargant or a 40 wound mega gargant and a four wound goblin Will get the exact same amount of saved wounds out of the amulet triggering on the last wound Right, so it completely eliminates the scalability problem and makes it flat no matter what character has it Um, so that's that's why I like that. All right, Alice you I argued just a six up. I argued even more conservatively. I said just make it a six up death Death has six up does just this thing and it's fine. Um, so I think that um, I think I I would go even more conservative and just say six up And honestly, I'd be fine with it I'd be fine with it. Like I this is this is This is bath water. I throw the baby out with that is to say like and you know the immediate push back to that would be people saying maybe like oh, but then amulet Uh, might not be picked and I'm like, okay Doesn't seem like my problem. Honestly. I I I I think that um Uh, people more people should be using their uh, babble tone Relics, that's why they're there folks. Right, right Uh, and and when I and I remember immediately when I saw it. I was like this is gonna And then many people had this feeling it wasn't an original thought but I immediately saw them like this is going to override so many books and That's bad I like people to use their books. That's what they're there for sure, right at best these enhancements should be uh, stop gaps for whatever Weird crap you've got going on, but they shouldn't predominate over anything in the books. Sure And you know, definitely all in agreement. Oh, yeah Go go did the other option which coach mentioned a lot of people have echoed They like is limiting it to sub commanders, right? So you can only put it on a nine lender or less guy Yeah, and again also fine with the point is there's probably four we've talked through four Decent changes to this and I would be fine honestly with any of them Just not what it is now Yeah, exactly some my uh orientation around this we have some slight disagreements between us is I the main value that comes to mind with amulet is that it provides a universal means of at least one hero having Something to say about mortal winds When they may otherwise not And I can see the point about six up to me that does feel too light. So I would Would orient around either the four up versus mortal wounds only absolutely mortal wounds only is would be my answer to this It should be you're an eggnax man I mean or five up. I'd also be happy with a five up against mortal wounds only I think I think either of those two fills right to me in terms of what I think amulet needs to do in the game as a universal artifact, especially for 10 wounds or more characters heroes sure, so your Name your favorite pet monster that you'd like to have a chance about that. That's a good example. Yeah, isn't game breaking It doesn't have any mortal wound protection, right? Hopefully that you'd like to have a shot at keeping alive a little longer getting value out of it You know, I think we have gone a long way in increasing the value in general of monsters in this game The same time I still think that's something like this has a role to play As an offset against especially shooting and mortal wound output in general But yeah, it should only be mortal wounds. I think if you're gonna do that It's just fine. Again fine with any of them pick them It's cool, right good with it like we all I think everybody agrees it needs changed in some way Just pick pick something Just fix it.  I'm keen to get both of your bead back Reduce the trigger range in other words the range that you can trigger unleash hell upon to three inches It's currently nine, which is like ridiculously far stupid That's like it's so far away in the game because you have to toe into that Right like one model toes into that nine inches and that whole shooting and it's gonna turn around and you're like And And it's creating I mean like all the time I've been seeing Dock players who will give their opponent the turn and though while they have deployed with their entire army Castling around 15 snake bows, which I mean kind of makes sense as like an actual military strategy But in terms of gameplay, I don't know that that feels A little unhealthy for for a game to be in that place Where yeah, you can get you can potentially if if they try to get into you to do any damage to you in melee You're gonna light them up anywhere.  Uh, yeah Alice, what are your thoughts on unleash hell? Do you think it's uh, Chris said delete it and I'm not necessarily against that Um, but if we if we're gonna keep it, um, I mean I I suppose at the very least um I think I I think I'd actually kind of in contrast to my more my uh, amela destiny idea. I'd want to um Make it more like what overwatch is in 40k. I limit it to six ups um And um, yeah and keep the three inch thing like you said, um, I get what it's for Um, like what they were going for with that, but you know with the nine inch thing. It's it's frankly absurd and um In aos, um, you know, it's You don't have you don't have to be concerned about someone getting into melee now making it impossible to shoot them That's not a concern for age of sigmar. So why give even more? opportunities for ranged weapons to fire volleys um, I'm slightly bitter because um as an obr player, I don't really get access to range um, but um, I mean it's it's it's something that doesn't make sense to me I don't want the game to turn into a lot of shooting and there's Um, there's a major reason that the top armies all consist of Um, really good shooting. Yeah Yeah, and the reason I like three inches and I see some people saying well, that's short What about four? What about six? No, I like three and I'll tell you why because I want that unit to be in combat like one of the worst Things to experience is you charge a unit. You need to kill Then another unit shoots at you and now you haven't even brought that shooting unit into combat So it can only shoot the thing that it just shot if it survived Like that's an awful experience right Whereas if it's in three then it's old handgunner stand and shoot or something like that You can pick whatever you want, right? But they shoot on the way into them being pulled into combat You could still have a chaft line in front of them so that maybe they can't be targeted in melee directly like one inch Two inch depends on the reach of the melee weapons, right? That could still fit And Fine, great. Like I don't care if I can't necessarily melee the thing Because you've set up a line, but they but but they have to be in the combat. You had to risk something Right. They're now in combat with me and even if I couldn't physically attack them this turn At least they can only shoot the unit that I sacrificed going forward, right? At least I feel like I did something Yeah, right So that's why I like three inches like you can still chaft a three inch line easily Um, so they don't just get Punched in the face But at least now you have to like you have to risk something for the reward That's the point, right? Definitely. Yeah Yeah, I mean, we know shooting has been powerful in this game for a long time. I'm trying to think of what was the original sort of Uptick in the power of shooting. I'm thinking of sky fire spam back in like 2017 Feels like ever since early 2017. We have seen the right the power of shooting in this game We saw that run rampant in second edition particularly at the tail end of second edition during coven also mortal wound shooting And mortal wound shooting. Yeah, and we did not have a leash hell There was no only shell in the game and shooting was still very powerful So I'm not yeah, just from like I don't know why we need it in the game to begin with If we're going to have it in the game. Yeah, it probably needs to get toned down It has I'll say it has been less impactful than I expected it to be to be fair Like when we were first looking at this addition I was thinking it was going to be a little more impactful than I found it However, there are still these outliers That are having a lot of negative consequences that lean into unleash hell and it's the usual units. Yeah, I agree This is often. I mean, this is also this is a compounding problem, right? Unleash on its own. Is it necessarily doing a lot absent certain units? Like I you know, I There's plenty of units I've charged that had shooting attacks. They unleash on me and I'm like, okay Right You know need I you killed a couple dudes on the way in I'm fine with it. Now. I'm going to go beat your unit up, right? And that's fine because again most shooting isn't super impactful It relies on actually hitting so the neg one can be meaningful since it can't be Bonus unless they're carrying and you know an out of sequence sort of you know ongoing buff And and so on and so forth, right But the fact that again, it's the as you said is the usual suspect, right? It's a compound problem unleash gets worse when you're dealing with bow snakes highly castled salamanders all the that nonsense Right that then that then unleashes and bathes you in mortal wounds Yeah, particularly when the game has added battle tactics that amplified the value in my view of targeted damage Meaning that you can point and click to achieve A broken ranks as opposed to melee you got to go do work To kill that broken ranks, you know, battle line units or You can pinpoint target range damage your monster. What are we going to pick? So yeah, it's like there's already additional value that we're adding It's shooting by the nature of how some of these battle tactics work. Yep. Yep Okay, agreed Let's see Coach said thoughts on not using unleash hell on an ability shooting without a to hit roll Oh, should it be able to be used? Oh, can you? Yeah, sure sure. So things like the I assume he's asking about things like, um Like thank wheels Spray guns or the medusa stare. My answer is it's completely irrelevant right now for the most part because None of those actually do big enough damage and most of them are horde killers and there's no hordes Now if the meta shifts next ghb, then there's hordes running around everywhere You know, I don't know my opinion might change I guess I don't know If every time I have to charge Uh, you know, I think we'll suddenly skyrockets in popularity because there's hordes everywhere and he evaporates You know any size unit if you charge near him Um Okay, coherency Uh, this is a very simple change change one to five retains old school coherency to one to six No argument Right, I mean this just feels obviously This just feels off There's a lot of three man units in the game. I don't know why they didn't even think of that Right. Um, but it's it's a feel bad moment that that one model Goes and changes everything And Alice I nerded out one many months ago and sent Ben's this long email listing out everything in the game that would apply to this And yeah, there's a few outliers like baron guard where maybe you don't want baron guard But you know fix baron guard like maybe that makes them a little bit better if they can stretch out six baron guard But hey, why don't we you know address baron guard? Right and we can fix baron guard Right It was mostly units that are not going to get crazy if coherency goes from one to five to one to six Yeah, and like like you're saying if they do that's a problem with the unit not the fact that there's six of them Exactly. Yeah And yes sporadic as I know 32 millimeter models with a one-entry still suffer. I agree. I I agree with it But that's again, I'm trying to go with the conservative change I think we could see the one to six just makes sense The 32 mil units those just need to get fixed as they they sort of roll out I mean, I would much rather have it be I'd rather go super crazy and say something like one to 11 or whatever one to 10 But you know, here we are. Um, yeah the This just feels like the biggest duh. I can't believe they decided to cap it at five and not six It's it's madness to me. There are so many three years in the game that reinforced to six so many that just became like Incredibly annoying to use because they're almost all of them are on like 40 or 50 mil rounds too. I would point out It's like the most common base size for this type of unit, right? It's just incredibly frustrating So quality of life change fix it Yeah, I I get what they were going for and I and I it was the list of different different solutions to try and fix, you know conga lines, but like I feel like they kind of did that with other things and this was just sort of uh And then unnecessary change and it ended up causing more damage than it helped. Yep. Yep Oh, don't worry. Nick are we're gonna talk about glutton's. I got a little I got a little we got a little glutton action We're gonna go through every army. This is just the yeah, by the way folks one Don't forget to hit that like button and subscribe Uh, like if you want to see some changes if you like some of ours or your own or what's been in the chat hit that like button Uh And to tuck in folks. This is going to be a show. I just want to go ahead and say We got a lot We're going through every army everyone so Plus you got to let us know if you got a hard stop. I'm gonna talk less. I feel so that yeah No, I No, I think of the bulk of the conversation was going to be in this course stuff because I think it's something that everybody has an Opinion on once we get into the armies a lot of this is going to be like, yeah, sure All right, uh Battle regiment remove all leader slots exempting one sub commander So I saw that and I I'm curious to hear your insight on that because I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just curious. Uh, we we came up with that idea. Yeah, sure. Why so it's thinking about battle regiment as a challenge And I think the race to the bottom one drop in the sort of alpha shooting that it has enabled Is challenging the earlier statistic of lumineff being at 91 percent battle reg and there's a lot of battle reg stuff that that um It just is so heavily weighted toward pushing low on drops Especially if you have some kind of alpha potential, but especially especially alpha shooting potential, right? But I think unified is an interesting concept to keep in the game And and the reason I didn't just say cut battle reg or unified in general was because There are lots of other battalions It did have shown up in the other books that use unified and are completely unproblematic Okay, like they because they don't have a mix of units that is here's your whole army Right And that's the challenge it makes it almost almost in some armies decision less You're you get to have your cake and eat it too right And so by getting rid of these leader slots An autumn lotus. I know like it wouldn't hurt corn. Don't worry. We're going to help corn Otherwise, I understand corn has a lot of leaders lots of people have lots of leaders. They want to shove in here Hurting the armies that are abusing it right now like lumineff and other armies like that also helps corn We're going to steal from the rich here some to give to the poor But we're also going to just help corn directly Right like yeah, sometimes things will we'll gotta do We're stealing from the poor as well, but I mean they don't have as much to steal Right, exactly. There'll be a refund. Don't worry. We've got a plan here to to give them back a Tax refund tax based incentives for skulls and blood. There you go the But the reason I liked this as a fix Leaving only one sub commander leader in there was it still made sense to me for its name I mean, I know that sounds stupid, but like these things have names Right and and they're meant to represent something theoretically, right some concept and so battle regiment to me was like, okay This is the battle regiment It's like I thought back to my playing imperial guard in third edition days, right When I had regiments which were like stacked groups of ten imperial guardsmen with a heavy weapon team attached and then a A sub commander or whatever like a lieutenant, right? That was my regiment and then those folded up into the eventual commander commander of the army, right?  They're always then a choice to get extra drops Right that was my basic concept now. I'm not saying this is perfect, but this is my take on it. So There you go I need to think through this one a little more detail haven't kind of ran through, you know Like a lot of existing lists and looking at but just in general how what would this actually look like in reality in terms of where lists are and variation between where various factions are with the kind of list building but Alice do you think this would be a meaningful improvement or are you still skeptical? Uh, I still got my skepticism mostly. I it's it's it's another one of those things that I don't know I don't know what the one solution is Um, because you know who gets priority has been a consistent problem in both games And there's a reason that every addition that comes out goes and changes how it works Because they're hoping that this is the time that they stumble upon the time that Uh feels balanced and yet they never quite hit it. Um, because in I mean In aos especially as it stands right now, you know, it's not necessarily going first that's important but getting to choose who goes first is super important and um And uh in that respect, it's like I I wish there was some way to to um Disconnect it from the number of drops, but um the way that the game works in a fundamental level at this point is um Is not um conducive to that. Um, like, um One another game that I play, um star wars legion disconnects priority completely from Uh, all of that stuff and and it also changes from round to round Um, and it works great. Um, but um war hammer is tied up in this concept that you know finishing your deployments first Gives you an advantage in terms of priority Sometimes it's been you get a bonus on a dice roll in this case. It's just you straight up get to go first and then also all the you know, um You go I go stuff Um is all tied up in that as well So there's just it's there's so many nested issues and I and I think the solution is less Trying to manage the number of drops and more trying to disconnect it from it entirely But I'm not I'm not someone who's capable enough to say exactly how you would do that And that goes outside of the scheme of what we're even talking about here since we talked about It's a really good Yeah, it's no it is a good point though. Yeah, I'm personally intrigued by oh, I mean 40k went through this Oh, I think you might know better remember I was thinking the 40k in eighth edition like at one point they had it to where Whomever finished dropping first got to Decide who goes first or maybe at one point they had a plus one to him Whoever's one to the die roll to go off, which I mean I still isn't Isn't ideal because people don't like don't like complete chance either. I think that they felt that um giving people control over who goes first felt better and I don't Disagree with that sentiment, but at the same time it's like um Yeah, we're seeing now how powerful Guaranteeing yourself going first also is Now in ninth edition, they just do a roll-off. There's no bonuses. Nothing. It's just a roll-off if I actually have not played a single game of ninth Yeah, I don't want to I don't want to go near that I think that's what it is now. Yeah, there's this whole debate. Anyway, we can move on but yeah, this whole debate where they We're trying to figure this out and they settled upon I think they settled on the plus one and then they moved away from that and now it's just a roll-off And whomever wins the roll-off must go first a lot of the time you don't even want to win the roll-off You want to go you'd prefer to go second, but yeah, uh, Vince. I mean, what's your quick take on? that notion of Would it be a better world? It's kind of Alice is alluding to if we're Getting away from the drop count mattering as much. Maybe it matters a little bit But maybe just in the form of like a plus one to the roll Yeah, so well, I'll say a couple things one Autumn said most competitive netlist already running one drop and this change would do nothing It most certainly would it would change their number of drops from one because again I'm getting rid of all of the leader like somebody said a techless LRL list wouldn't be affected.  Let's say or something like that, right? So that's what I mean. That's what we have to Have to look at the list and see whether we're just moving the goalpost. We're are we moving the goalpost? Which is the question totally agree. Yes So like it would most certainly change things. I don't know but like I said, this is one that I I took a shot across the Bowel, but I'm very open to to um I want to actually one comment that stuck out to me. Um Let's see here. Um Justin Justin Crawford said, uh, what about tying it to fewer points like triumphs and that's an idea that I'm not completely against Sure. Um, almost like a pre-bidding system is what you're getting. Yeah, it's because because um, you know turns can fluctuate throughout the game um, so it's not like Getting a lower getting a lower point list is guaranteed to get you First for the rest of the game like it would be and say 40k But in age of sigmar, it's it's at least a powerful advantage, but you're also risking putting your bid up, um You can't say just just feeling it out. I can't say that. I think it's a terrible idea Yeah, now now as to the change it to be bonuses or this and that or whatever, right? Sure. There's a hundred different systems You could use Okay, do you really think that any of those would show up in this? No, no, which again goes outside of what we're talking about I said, that's why our mandate here is realistic and conservative, right? Like yes, we could all sit around and think about what what, you know Priority system would we love to see and would we love to have them change? I I want you to honestly ask yourself like Audience, do you think that's going to show up in the winter data balance or balance data slate? Whatever it's called. The answer is no No, they're not going to change a core rule like that Like it's the way the game works better or worse, but they might make a change to a core battalion Right, so that this one core battalion that's highly abusive Isn't as potent and yes, we do have some concerns of like, are we necessarily moving the goalposts? I don't know. I need to see the lists, right? Yeah, and so That's the that's the challenge. Like I'm trying to figure out what could we reasonably do here Because a change like that's only going to happen at an addition break honest Right, yeah And and and look, I'm not opposed to any of that. There's there are benefits and costs to be to making it a component of list building And there are benefits and costs to making it random chance with with or without bonuses Neither of those is free and if I surveyed people Some people would like a better. Some people would like be better There's consequences and externalities to both of those decisions, right? Um into what psychographic profiles you're appealing to what types of lists it allows to to play versus not play Like it's not a small decision. It's a massive decision That has like unbelievably far-reaching Uh impacts on the game Right, like and and by the way, those might not all be bad. Some of those could be quite good I'm not saying they're necessarily I'm not making a normative judgment on them Right, I'm saying that it will have a lot of changes and impacts and so you need to like that's why you're not going to see it In something like a winter FAQ, right? That's and and and I've and I've always said I think that people always tend to kind of um Set their expectations too high, which is probably why you set it to conservators to begin with Um people always have pie in the sky dreams about completely changing the game. It's like that's Right and I don't want to write on people's parade like I get it I get that some of these things they would rather have a different mechanic in it. I mean, they're bad ideas Yeah, like no, these are bad ideas. I'm not I'm not poo pooing you for having ideas on You know, how you'd like to see the game evolve Right, I'm just saying like we also have to think what's going to happen here All right, because that's that's what we want to predict We could have a different show that's like what would be the ultimate changes We'd want to see to make the platonic aos, which would be a very different show Yes, well moving on I your next one actually ties in very nicely. Yes core battalions max one each may not do Don't disagree This one seems so obvious. Why are the regular why are the ghp battalions? capped at one and the core normal battalions You can duplicate them like But why though? I feel like that's one of the number one questions I get when newbies come into the list building as well Because they're like, oh, how many of these can I take and I'm just kind of like as many as you want And as many as well as many as you can fit and They're just sort of dumbfounded by that and it's a it's an understandable thing why that would be like that seems a little powered Yeah, it kind of Don't disagree By the way, you could even create a special rule for some of the smaller ones because we're going to make those better That says they could be repeated Right, but the ones that are meant to be big whole rep large representations of your army Uh are singular right like they could literally what I say a special rule. I mean like they could have a little symbol on them right um To to being that to being that thing assistant ref says vince ventrell I don't like limiting core bats to one each simply because it rewards books with new bats and rewards battle reg Focused armies even more opposite what we want to do. I don't know man assistant ref I would one all core battalions and books shouldn't exist So i'm not going to like to to my mama once told me two wrongs don't make a right So i'm not going to go ahead and fall for that trick. That's number one number two Uh, I see a lot of double battle reg I see a lot of it Because then they take two massive forces Usually for alpha shooting and shove it into two drop and then just roll the dice and hope they don't run into a one drop And they still out drop everybody Yeah, we're basically talking about battle double battle reg here in terms of probably the I mean that just it feels On many levels and it Not just feels but I I think on many levels It is bad for the game to allow double battle reg that that's kind of nonsense in my opinion Yeah Let's just go with this core like, uh The uh, here's if you don't like my my one each which by the way, I do really bad Like I you know, there we go. Um my solution is at the very minimum battle red should be a single thing you could take That's it That counts at one period Yeah, okay I mean, it's a similar principle to why which I just found out recently that hunters of the heartlands is thankfully max one you can't like That was Way too early only found that out like two days ago Oh, well, you're doing better than I am I would say I I said recently to Make myself feel better. Uh, yeah Anyway, yeah, like hunters being able to double up on hunters. It's too strong. It's too much benefit blah blah blah So it's kind of the same idea battle reg is too strong people in the double double up on it right And so some change to battle reg plus a limit of one could go a long way towards addressing the race to the bottom situation right um So there we go. Um now let's talk about Uh vanguard line breaker grand battery Garbage don't know why they exist. They are hot liquid garbage They are not in lists. They're terrible. If you take them, you've made a mistake as it stands right now They're bad they all give you One command ability once a game without spending a cp and they And and they don't even let you double up on it in any way Because of the you the word use Now because it counts as having been received by someone they didn't both X out they needed to cancel out both issue and receive so that you could double up on it. Yeah Um the Uh These are me so like what we're going to do with these is we're going to go two sides to this coin again Like always I try to attack things from multiple directions, right? So on one side i'm trying to make battle reg a little weaker less of an auto take Maybe like my idea. Maybe you don't maybe have your own solutions. That's fine But I think we can all agree or at least I hope I hope nobody's going to come out and defend these three battalions Please do put in the comments if you want to defend these three garbage battalions I am I am curious to see what you have to say Uh, yeah, we we we would all be interested in how you defend these please please tell me about your four one vanguard line breaker list because I really want to hear about it Yeah, like I don't know that's not even a joke. I understand. I don't know how these got printed I literally don't like I can't picture The writing Process that created these three and they went that's good. What went on the same page you have Two that can grant you a cp Yes Just a generic cp In in case you forgot the first one. Here's another right, right? Yes, exactly That is just a better version plus of all of these. Yes. Yes, exactly So not that much harder to fill So here's my suggestion for the three of these. I want to make these three good Not okay. I want to make them good Right and the reason I want to make them good is because that's the other way we can Stop the race to the bottom is by having a cool incentive on these other battalions, right by bringing them up We also then stop the oh, well the free thing to do is just go one drop, right? I'm sacrificing nothing basically, right And so here's my suggestion Open to feedback, right? Uh once per round so battle round so five uses per game Once per battle round you can use this command ability for free So keep the same three command abilities. They are six command abilities flip two per right that you currently have You can use it for free and it doesn't count as your one use of that command in that phase Now the unit still counts as receiving it Okay, so you can't double up on a single unit All right, but you can Hit two different units with it Because it doesn't count as the use of it in that phase Okay I think I think the once per round is great I think that the doesn't count as your use of that ability might be a bridge too far But I can't say for sure It's potent Like there's no doubt. It's potent Right, and let's be honest. We all know what the scary one is with that, right? It's grand battery and all of a sudden double unleashing Right. Yeah, that's yeah But I like I love the idea of these being an interesting choice, right? No, no I I understand the double. I understand the fear of the double unleash. I get it now I will say that you know that The grand battery is limited to What is grand battery three artillery? I don't have it right off the top of my head. Yeah three artillery Yeah, there might be a hero in there Right, maybe like a sub commander a hero in three a sub commander in three artillery. That sounds right. I think that's it And I mean, you know, realistically that's not I'm not worried about the Uh, ballast the ballastee getting a free unleash shell Right like artillery in this game is pretty limited So it's already pretty controlled, but again, I don't want to get down stuck down the rabbit hole of unleash. Okay um So, you know, there we go I keep mine. I'm assuming these changes are all cumulative So, you know, we fixed unleash already earlier So there we go right um Yeah, I it is potent Alice. You're not wrong, but I like it. He would this would tempt me right knowing that I could you know, uh Knowing that I could have two different all-out attacks going in a phase Right once per round pretty good Yeah, that's enormous. I mean that would be highly attractive. It might be too attractive Uh, I'm kind of with Alice on this. I'm not sure. I don't think a lot more about it And then would the if we remove that where you cannot double up Is the equivalent of five extra cp in a game up to five cp in a game. Is that enough? No Probably not enough is the problem I can tell you why because there's tons of heroes that give you like 10 free cp or a million free cp And like they're okay at best right so yeah Trying to think about a middle ground because is that a middle ground between those two Look, I'm just saying iron jaws are playing this game. Let's let everybody else play it a little bit If you take these battalions and push your drop count up you get you too can be almost like an iron jaw Yeah Everybody's loving that Yeah, I mean I I agree with the sentiment of trying to bring these up. We said in the beginning, you know with the enhancement page You know dream is tossed in the fire, but you know, it's it's also it's also more interesting to talk about how you can make things better Um, and and and I think it could be workshopped a bit Yeah, absolutely. This it's I don't think by any stretch of the imagination. This is like I've hit the The bullseye right like I don't think this is the one and perfect truth But I think that this kind of thing right that we can all agree that going a direction Like this of bringing these three up is another way to solve the battle rich problem And it's more fun like give people more interesting options in their list building because right now you basically have Three battalions out of the core book. You actually could ever think of using So, yeah, sure All right, my next one's pretty uncontroversial fix bodyguards just like Just like fix it. Just just do that Just do that. Yeah, let let's not even get into it because I still Don't understand what the hex why why does velikor get a six up ward. I don't know reasons everybody says he does Plus, do you understand this thing? The whole that some units can bodyguard and then ward and some units can't Yeah, no, I mean I I experimented with a legion of the first prince. So I I got to learn it pretty well, but you know, it's I get I get I I never liked the concept of bodyguards. I understand it thematically. It's neat Um, and in some cases, it's great for, you know, your squishy guys That you want to keep protected But from the gameplay mechanic, it's just not fun because it's it's just a bag of a blade of wounds that slows down Killing the thing that you're trying to kill Um, and there's frequently not a lot of way ways around it other than just raw damage cut through that first Uh, and having a sack of a blade of wounds is what what kind of we're all mad about um already with the Certain abilities like the five with like the amylo destiny or whatever. It's just taking a different form Yeah, um, so I mean for up to me, I'd say bodyguards can go out the window But we're not going to make an extreme change like that. I mean, I just I'd make the I'd make the proc Not so generous, um, none of this Two up absorbs moons garbage Um, yeah, sure. I don't know what's saying game.  Yeah Yeah, exactly and that may be too extreme, but it's just as I don't like bodyguards I think I think as a rule, it's just not fun to go against Um, I mean, do you so of course it's designed to help in in general, I would think Why do why do we have bodyguards? Why do we have this role? Why do we have you know? Generally, I would think the first thought would be to help protect your necromancer You're sick. You're five six seven wound heroes, right? Sure. It's kind of generally Yeah, so and that seems to me still like a good thing to have in game We maybe we do instances where we've gotten a little too far in some cases Some of this I think could be addressed by like I was talking earlier about Artists and praetors. I think you're getting enormous value out of that combo for the 100 25 Inst that you're paying for it You're paying too little for that. You know, GARDUS is too cheap I think if you were paying a little bit more, maybe that feels a little bit better But anyway, yeah, I the just like the fixer part of this is That there's an inconsistency. So they did the bodyguard fact Where it was supposed to be fixed And you know to where but it wasn't because we still have apparently instances based on the warning that I gave the example of bellicor Apparently rules as written Still can get a six up ward and there are other instances where this is the case. So I don't want to get in the weeds of it I actually don't really understand it all that well. You may have already gotten there Yeah, that's fair. It's too late But yeah Yeah, I mean the key is the timing of some bodyguards can function and then the other words still Are allowed and some don't and some replace them all and they have lots of different bonuses Some trigger very hard, you know, they're they're very minimal Some are on a two up Blase blah blah blah.  It works across the board. I'm honestly open to like eight different ways. It could work I don't care Just stop making it a rules nightmare That's it. Hey, it won't be good Go ahead a good sentence that he put together on his Stream this week. I'm gonna have to find it, but I thought he had a nice little like, you know Here's a few words that basically fixes it Nice, so I trust it in in hey, whoa, we trust As always Okay Uh So my last one remove any remaining re-roll saves like generic re-roll saves Okay, if it's weirdly cashed or whatever like in the case of um the dragon armor or whatever out of a storm cast Where it's like only against multi damage or something like that. I'm not talking about that stuff I mean just like here's the thing now your re-roll saves. Congratulations, right? Against all attacks. Okay.  That's all gone I also want to see most re-roll ones to save booted Like I would allow a few of those to stick around Uh in in the right cases But just get rid of this garbage Uh, even in like I'm assuming our save stacking picks up above But even without that can we please just get rid of the rest of this clutter? They They removed some of it But then left Enough of it that it's super annoying Okay, when it's still hiding out there like shield of fate and other nonsense like that It's it's weirdly arbitrary. Um and what they like you look through some books and they're like, oh, yeah Change this to a plus one and then others Didn't touch it at all and it's like What what was the decision making process and that I don't get it. All right, right? Yeah, and there are situations where I would still see the re-roll ones sticking around Um Brick in the head mentioned leave my chain rasps alone. Nope chain rasps are the perfect ones You can keep your re-roll ones like I'm good with it. I'm fine with it Like in general re-roll ones are a horrible horrible slowdown to the to the game Okay Um The I'm sorry. We hit so few for you chase, but it's all right. I I'll stick behind all my recommendations But I'm glad I got at least two. I'll take that. I got two for you Um, but like chain rests are the perfect unit that it's fine We we would we accept the downside that it's slow It makes the attack phase extremely cumbersome and annoying because you got to pick through your dice Find the ones and then re-roll them that kind of very particular dice re-rolling actually slows the game way down more than you think But um, but I'm fine with it chain rests are a great example because they're locked to a five up Yep, fine Cool. Give it to them. Good stuff Right, like I'm okay with a hoard unit like that that can't ever be better than a five up getting re-roll ones What I'm really trying to stop is egregious people who are regularly on three and two ups Just getting re-roll ones.  Now we can give him something else like the gosh should be A big bad dude, right? Like I'm not I'm not against that but that re-roll wants to save. No, no, no I'm to keme butumbo. I'm blocking that hard like that's out of here Okay, just blanket everything.  Yes I realized that by saying this I'm hurting the entire channel of re-rolling ones because they're riskin to be like What does that mean? You know get to re-roll ones ever Uh poor no re-rolls at all. You all got mad about it. So I'm just taking re-rolls Yeah, yeah, re-rolling ones the channel is gonna have to change their name to Two two plus. Nope. Nope. That's not gonna work. Darn it. Okay Uh, very good So All right real quickly. I found it Hey woes bodyguard the two slightly different bodyguard rules combined into one key worded ability that does not stack with wards This does that do it Say it one more time You're slightly different bodyguard rules combined into one key worded ability that does not stack with wards Yeah, I I know what he's trying to say because uh, like the praetors have a different bodyguard rules on A lot of other stuff because it was written with third edition in mind. So exactly. Yeah Kind of how like a lot of you know, save after allocating We we all know it's just gonna get changed to change this to a six up ward. Um, he's he's basically suggesting just Squish those together. That's fair Okay Cool. Yeah, I like it All right that something like that. Yes. Yes All right. Now all of you that have been yelling at us that uh, your special army would be affected by those changes Now we finally get to address you individually and watch you each get mad at us in a unique way That's right. Whoop whoop. All right. Let's let it let just call me I can't remember the guy's name But whoever Tonya Harding's friend was that came up and Just clocked Nancy Kerrigan. That's what we're gonna do some of these armies Well, other ones I will gently behind them lift them up like uh, like little Simba and hold them over the pride lands We're gonna we're gonna raise them up. We're gonna do some we're gonna do some work here Okay Let us begin with the forces of order. All right Uh Okay I just woke everybody up by clapping by the way. Sorry about that. That was probably quite loud uh, all right Order These are going to be an alphabetical by faction by the way. Just so that's if you want to know when your army's coming Okay I'm taking some big swings here on some of these with completely new abilities And the reason I did that is when I looked at the 40k thing sometimes they just Handed people new abilities. I'm just like this is a new thing now you can do and I was like, all right Cool. Like let's do that. Let's just give people a new ability Okay City's a sigmar. Let's start here dawn bringer crusades Any model with one wound counts as two models when contesting objectives not wholly within your territory What I want to do here the goal behind this change was to make all the one wound various infantry people Uh Better like useful do something. Okay, like have some kind of function And and letting them play the objective game more strongly could be an incentive to going back to units of dudes The challenge is going to be that phoenix guards still remain the far and away best choice with this new rule So in response to that phoenix guard up 10 15 could be 20 points Right Something like that to where now you can get 20 basically other dudes who count as 40 versus 10 phoenix guard who are only counting as 20 right So that being my solution here um So phoenix guard up 10 to 20 points phoenixes up both of them fire phoenix up a little frost phoenix up more Demographics lumen arc hammers or hammers down Other scrolls. They probably need a rewrite like I I tried to figure out ways We could save the dark elves and my honest answer is some of those scrolls are just so bad I I can't get them to a cheap enough points Where I felt like this would be a reasonable choice against the other stuff that exists without doing like major surgery Yeah, don't agree. I don't disagree. I'd probably maybe tack on um Iron drakes getting a point increase as well, but oh, yeah, that could be an oh, and yes Small points increase for iron drakes seems just not a huge one just a little bit of one because that's that's the other standout unit If we're bringing a tiny mom hard Yeah, if we're bringing up phoenix guard a little bit might as well bring them up Totally agree. Yep. I missed him, but you're exactly right And go trek up small. I threw him in the city's thing, right? So I really like your negative It's kind of a nice narrative choice with only four objectives not wholly within your territory Because they got to kind of say it out, right? They're conquering new territory Like I tried to think what would be the cool narrative thing in line with what's currently happening in the story And it's the dawn bringer crusades Right. Yeah, the the you see you saw the picture of the dawn bringer crusade.  And so I think that This could be a cool way to bring that back And if if assuming the phoenix guard and the iron drakes get more expensive to appropriately balance out the other ones stuff like hammers or Um, what is it iron beards or not iron beards or iron breakers breakers. I can find those two Um iron breakers might become pretty interesting, right? Um, even just basic free guild guard might become a pretty interesting choice because if you can have 10 super cheap dudes And run them out there on objectives not in your territory You know, that's pretty cool that you could get that like that. That's 20 guys effectively, right? So It's interesting. There might be some and I'm not sure I'm just looking at the point values of some of these One wound units, you know 85 points for 10 free guild guard. Is that too cheap if they're counting as two models I don't think so. I really don't given their stats Because again, because you can't sit at home, right? And that's the key. It's it's the holy within your territory trick, right? Now, I understand. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no summer on the line, whatever whatever. Okay. Thank you Um, actually, um And like the you know, but but it's they're still fragile ads. Those aren't good units, right? They're they're chappy things But this gives them some Function it could make a lot of the dwarf units really interesting Because those are guys with like very defined roles actually In an utility unit of anvil unit and a literal hammer unit. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Alice Yeah, no, I was just saying it's a book filled with absurd levels of padding And um, but now that they've had more time to experiment with Weird and unique ideas. It's there's room to take another crack at these and Give them some weird utility use it may not be competitive But there there's so much potential for just weird stuff that you could Yeah, and this felt like it fit our our Our restrictions, right the casual focus like this is going to make a lot of casual players who want to run Even if you do really love the dark elf stuff and that's what you want to run great Those that's like those those things even though they might not be the best units Right, suddenly they've got some objective play. It's pretty cool That suddenly corsairs or dark shards or whatever dark spears Can actually like get in there and play the objective game in some kind of way Again, the focus of this is the casual player somebody who wants to feel like they get use out of their army And to me this does that now again the competitive player is going to look and go her her But that's fine. Here's my five or six units that are clearly the best choices Yeah, I don't care great as long as we've properly pushed phoenix guard and probably as you said iron drakes up They don't become the de facto and there's still a discussion there. I'll take five or six potential choices right Yeah Definitely makes like internal guard a lot more compelling which are you know 125 right now? Nobody's playing internal guard. They were getting played quite a bit in 2.0 I'm as far as cities go, you know, you see them every once in a while at least But yeah, this would suddenly make like an internal guard unit pretty pretty viable. So yeah, I dig it Right on. All right So there you go cities And again, none of these are meant to go at the end. You're like, oh, they're fixed And that can't be I can't fix a whole book through a day to sleep right like it's we're trying to like We're trying to give everybody something something that gives them more play More reason to care to love to be, you know in on the army stuff to find that's all right And yes, the sorceress The sorceress on black dragon coach said give her a better save than a five up like I agree But my honest answer coach is even if I gave her a three up, I'm not sure that would save her But sure, let's just say she gets a three up. Why not? Okay Yeah, just just I don't think it's gonna save her but I'll still give it to her Okay daughters of kane Uh, guess what kneecap Yeah, okay. Oh, yeah, because this is one of the sinister six uh, so Marathi command ability remove the ability to shoot in the hero phase. It becomes a melee command ability only basically like the slaughter queen Uh, no more hero phase shooting bow snakes perfectly dangerous already You know, we didn't need them shooting twice. It was fine Uh, so get rid of that no more shooting in the hero phase out of bow snakes And then maybe some other unit is actually worth taking and then life takers slight points up Um One thing I'll add this is more of a general thing. Um But Marathi is the best one to talk about it. Uh, do not much care for the um limit of three wounds per turn thing. Um, I think Marathi is the least bad case of it because at least they did put in that um limitation that she can't be healed um, but I I don't much care for Hard caps on damage like that because it's a very non interactive mechanic. Um, but um That's probably going outside of the bound of it. That's probably not going to go anywhere because it's been such a core part of it Um, but from a personal standpoint not wild about it. Sure Uh, chase said who is the spider man in this analogy if the daughter's is in the sinister sticks And that is obviously gloom spite gets the spider people. They're obviously this spider goblin in this universe Uh, but there you go. Um, so yep, there it is. Uh, that's that's my fixes You could also argue about moving Marathi's points up a little. I didn't do it here because I Hater commandability, but I can still see the argument for going up some I think it's fine on that. I mean again, I can see Alice's point about the difference Or in general like there's a point to be made about the difference between maybe casuals and competitive I tend to think that Marathi is largely fine quote from a Competitive standpoint if you have an army that can chip damage her You're three wounds and you move on with your life Right if you do that and that's that's how you play daughters If you know how to play daughters, okay And if you have an army that can at least do some chip damage if you don't yeah, she's a pain And she I think she's fine absolutely fine and 160 60 points if we're knee capping, which we probably should do Yeah, remove the hero face shooting. Yeah, I mean her hero face shooting commandability is toxic It's completely warped. It is right. It destroys the internal bones of the book Yeah, and and there's still meaningful differentiation between the slaughter queen because it's like what three inches On the slaughter queen commandability. I think you literally have to be in combat to be able to activate longer than that She has a little longer thing. Yeah, but it's okay I'd hold it for 24 or something not 24 like her Right exactly. So yeah, there's plenty of differentiation there and yeah the and the points are I think fine on snake bows at 170 Like you they're very playable in my opinion 170 outside of Marathi, for example Somebody just took a ton of them and did pretty well in a list that I saw recently with no Marathi Yeah, yeah Right. Yeah, it's still like it's still an option. We might need to go farther Like snake bows might need to come up even a little more right go up to like You know, maybe 190 195 like approaching judicator levels. I don't know. I don't know But but at least this would be a start This would be a start Okay Fire slayers, uh, but I start at the beginning here. Please just give this army a new book We think we're gonna get one because we just saw the fire slayer character or clear rumor engine I should say I guess I'm guessing it's a character. I don't know that um But like You know in lieu of that there are some point changes we could make I agree with you completely Alice you made the point about volkites, right? Like volkites just don't have a role so you could take volkites down One thing we do want to be careful of is the the yo-yo syndrome I talk about it here because this is always the case, right? Like people will say why not just knock these points way way way way way down Right and it's like well because then you're gonna get yo-yo syndrome and you will feel worse So we take volkites.  Just like We shoot them way down then the book comes out and they get good rules and they shoot way up You will feel the pain of that way up and it will be way worse than the enjoyment you got out of the brief time They were way down, right? This is the yo-yo syndrome You've got to watch the that because otherwise you can just get into this vicious circle where things are all constantly trying to circle circle circle down, right? Um, and certainly, you know I I know I saw some people say fire slayers need more models Maybe like I've not opposed to that, right? But look iron jaws has seven units and it's one of the most brutal armies in the meta And it's incredibly fun to play. It's probably too good right And like you don't actually need a ton of units to be a good book. You can get by with like Seven units. It's kind of all you need. That's a functional army. It can happen You can write an interesting book with seven units. I'm not saying don't give these guys more units I'm fine with it if we do like having cool stuff like magma monsters or You know golems or stuff like that would be sweet as and I dig the heck out of it Like there'd actually be aesthetics. I like it this army did because those all sound awesome But we don't have to do that like we can also work within this space So yeah, my basic points thing was volkites down magma's down, but please just give them a new book Yeah Yeah Tyler any other thoughts on fire slayers That's good. I mean what a world will live in that a melee army a pure melee army might be too good That was like the that was the defining asset test that I had for 3.0 Essentially, I think we talked about it originally and yeah, we we certainly got there Yeah, anyway, yeah, autumn is not wrong. I have always been against more iron draws units My bias is very well established that army is perfect. Don't you touch it? I need nothing Maybe I will allow for a mega boss on a pig That is it end end of list Except one unit Okay, I didn't have deepkin Uh new book likely incoming like I didn't have any big changes here There's a rumor engine sports and it's the oldest current book. Go ahead go ahead else Yeah, and I and I ended a positive note and it's not really any For specific changes I want to make but I think it's on a positive trajectory Um, they seem to be acknowledging the the issue with it, you know initially really the only valid Thing you'd see in tournament play was eel spam Um, which was actually pretty solid. It wasn't like you were just getting by. It was pretty good. Um, but that's not like That's not fun. It's it's probably got some of the most gorgeous models in the game So I wanted to see more of that stuff Uh, and and we're getting there now. Um now that's a little more like shark spam But it's not to the same degree that the eels were You see the turtle out there every once in a while Uh, which is possibly one of my favorite models in the game. It's adorable. Um, so, you know, it's on a positive trajectory So I I think it needs a new book to get anywhere But it it shows they're moving in the right direction, which is at least encouraging if a new book has come Agreed this it's when you look at the changes they made in broken realms Right or whenever that happened it goes broken realms, right? It feels right. I don't know Yeah, it was it was the first broken realms book marathi. Thank you. There we go. Yeah, that's right That's right. Um, you know, I there was a lot of good things that they seem to actually be understanding the army better I hope that trajectory continues and we see Like again that they understand different roles and that sort of eyed net as a mixed arms force becomes more of the way To play it because when it's on the table as a mixed arms force with lots of different units It's one of the most gorgeous armies that they've made Right when you've got like some nemardi some eels on the flank a turtle in the center Right a couple of heroes mixed in the dude on his on his seahorse thing like it's It's pretty gorgeous as a force and it looks good. I want that to be the right way to Right way The sort of modal outcome as it were I think I think the I always forget its exact name, but the the guy with the um With like waterfall cape Is one of one of the most brilliant and beautiful models they've ever come up with Yeah, right play yeah, I'd run Yeah, Vince the the lists have been trending that way like that's a lot of the I didn't have the list that I see out there tournaments Yeah, they're these combined arms the amazing list. Yeah, yeah Um, I I do support crab crab lary crab lary If they're there there's gonna be there's gonna be uh, riots that In knottingham if they don't integrate crabs into whatever Make the new hero crab do it you count like put yeah exactly put that guy on a crab that whatever that new hero is from Last week's room wrench and it better should be a dude still right Oh, you should be the crab just make the crab put the sword that sword that we saw is just on a crabs back Yeah, I'm in for it. I'm totally in foreign Um, yeah, so, you know, uh good stuff there. I'm I'm completely supportive of this Uh, I also want to shout out that somebody said put in a new unit They wanted to see the kraken like unleash the kraken is what they said And there's somebody watching the show called the kraken who's like put me in Which has really made me laugh There's so many there's so many great sea monsters still out there that they could still use so I'd like to see expanded news. Yes Uh, absolutely. All right Uh, Coradron overlords Cara drawn Coradron. I don't know Who cares right? That's right every one of you players. I'm calling you out That's right all 12 of you. No, it's not fire slayers. Come on. There's at least 30 of these people Um, we got to be careful that the the angry dwarf contingent will come for us We'll we'll end up in the I'm I'm already in the book of grudges so many times At this point it doesn't matter But anyways, here's my here's my fixes for Coradron overlords The iron clad counts as a monster when contesting objectives only i.e. it counts as five not two It can't do stomps and roars and stuff because it's a boat But it counts as five. It's their Biggest ship It shouldn't be too Good change. I'm for it. Yeah, it's like an 18 wound model for god sakes Um, and then up to one unit Garrisoned in a ship can be counted towards total models contesting an objective that ship is also contesting Okay Only one unit in the garrison So you don't get to like pile on all the heroes and everything like you know, you got 25 dudes in an iron clad It's probably not all one unit, right? Just the nature of the thing because that would it's not you can't get to 25 through any unit combination Right. So but one unit garrisoned in a ship, which would basically mean your 15 thunderers since that's now their cap if they're about a line Or your 20 arco if you picked 10 arco Okay, 10 arco and then reinforced them once Um, and then sky wardens down Somebody said ender and rigors josh. I guess said ender and rigors should also come down that might be I you know Ender and rigors you're probably also right, but i'm definitely sky wardens need to come down there Yeah, they're not doing enough So But the garrisoned thing was interesting I wanted to give them more objective play because that seems like their weakness without improving their shooting Right my my answer to like how to make them more competitive wasn't let's fix their shooting or make their shooting worse like no Please no So this was my yeah, I I like I Care of drawn overlords they bring up really mixed feelings with me um I think in terms of as the army's actual play style is bad for the game because I don't I don't like the idea of a shooting army in age of sigmar um, even if they're not the worst um The worst culprits of it right now Um, but it's it's definitely what they were sold on as being like the shooting army. Um, I don't think it's great Um, but on the other hand, they're super cool models and have super cool lore. So I don't I don't want them to go away Yeah, um, so let let them keep their gimmick. Just don't let it overpower the game Yep I really like this like I mean care drawn aren't I perfectly fine place in the meta I think a lot of that has to do with how much they struggle on objective play And the save stacking is is a challenge as well because it's an army of minus one mostly rents Some minus two rent here and there they don't have monsters But yeah, they're they're perfectly fine from a meta, you know competitive standpoint This would give me a little bit But yeah, you got to have some models that are not just hanging out in boats the whole time It's just one unit. So yeah, man And the the monster with ironclad gives some differentiation to the frigate, which I really like Because you know at the point cost right now I tend to think the answer and I in ko is two frigates over an ironclad often. Yeah I like bark, uh, andre's idea as well. He said aether gold for any Reinforced unit so like current limitations of who gets aether gold or if the unit is reinforced Meaning that if you then had six balloon boys, so if you took a reinforced unit of balloon boys like six Uh skywardens or ender riggers That could be another interesting way to solve the skywarden ender rigger problem Is if you reinforce them once then they get an aether gold, which could be cool They could get a share because the problem is right now They they suddenly lost out on their ability to ever get shares of aether gold outside of the particular sky port that they can I think there's one where if they kill something then they can get one I don't remember but when they when those units suddenly became capped at um At nine and it's 10 Either have to have 10 models or be a boat to get a an aether gold Right, so Yeah Okay Cool So there you go. That's that's the fix there, but I really like the idea of the the share on reinforced Um skywardens and and again that wouldn't like it doesn't greatly increase their power. It just gives them, you know, you That's a interesting counter play there And what you want is to see them have reasons to kind of use all their units And that's why I like the garrison thing because then you want a regular unit and a boat because you need both things to take advantage of that Right, it's kind of pushing in both directions Lumineth realm lords Okay, I'm going to make some people angry But my honest answer is I would love to see these guys get a new not bloated book It would help other worse armies if these guys just got a book honest Why not? They got a book within six months. Just do it again. Sure. Let's just make it an annual thing But my answer is like really if we if we give them a new book that Firmly seats them in the fat middle it kills one of the sinister six and by killing one of the sinister six We actually bring like other armies can then come up, right? But barring that there's still changes we should make immediately Uh, number one foxes lose the enemy turn move This seems so stupidly obvious. I can't believe this ever flew for even five seconds Yeah, it's it's absurd. I I'm sure lumineth players love it Nobody else does no. Yeah, it's it's completely nonsense. Like I don't understand how this ever How we ever got through an FAQ cycle with this being the case And then total eclipse Either one every time lrl use a command like so this is this is now total eclipse new function Okay cast spell on total eclipse assume the same casting value Either every time lrl use a command ability on a five plus. They don't expend the cp.  Whatever, whatever they can't You know blah blah blah something like that you'd have to get janky with the wording This is the problem. You have to get janky with the wording like can I try to use it again? It still counts as that use being expended But you don't actually burn the command point like you understand i'm saying like you'd have to get Janky wording in there tyler.  I try to all out attack, right? Right, right, you know So my my solution here is easy like Um, if you just make it so it ramps their command points. They're already like not starving for command points So they can have more Cool, so it doesn't you know tyler your pushback was like but they already get a bunch of you They already don't have a lot of command points and i'm like Yeah, okay, or they already don't have a challenge with command points. I was like, okay lots of armies have average spells You know like that's fine. I guess my point But yeah, this just immediately drops off the map if if we do one And it might drop off in the map if we do two as well I don't know if we quite hit this one in terms of if we want to make this still relevant Okay, here's something to ask you a question for tyler. Here we go. You ready? Forget total eclipse Forget the spell for a second. Okay, you have a new spell in your iron jaws cast on an eight From now until your next hero phase anytime you spend a command point it refunds on a five plus How's that spell sound to you? Right Pretty good, right Here's the trick in almost every army that would not be out of the contention that would be an auto include Because it's so freaking powerful iron iron jaws are I mean, they're looking for all the cp. They can munch on every turn So, yeah, they would they would love to have that a lot of armies. Yeah, that's fair It's it doesn't change the fact though that Lumineth are swimming in cp right now Right, and I agree. I agree with your point I mean it sort of it points to the shrine might be doing a little too much in terms of what it does Sure With the amount of cp what it's like 10 free cp you get from that silly thing But no, it's it's a fair point. That's what do you think about either of these or do you think nine of them quite hit the mark? um I think the I think the five up and it applies to the enemy I admit I admit I actually had to look it up. I remember to learn what that spell did Because as someone who plays ovr, it doesn't affect me which explains why I've never encountered it Um, but now that I have looked looked it up with my phone and read it. Um Thank you for gw the one thing I use that out for um Is um, I think the five up Um, even if an enemy uses a command ability keeps the spirit of the spell while also diminishing it a bit Yeah, I mean my big change is if I weren't being conservative and real would be like total eclipse Please delete from book, you know or something like that like, you know, I take an even bigger Just just cut it out. You guys have enough good stuff already. You don't need you're fine You're fine Yeah, there's there's uh There's other stuff that I dislike about loom enough like the next thing you talk about. Yeah, sure So the the prickly issue of sentinels again because I was trying to be realistic and conservative I said sentinels up 20 potentially remove their ability to be battle line My problem with the potentially removing battle line is it's kind of the idea of the army that like They work in this tandem and it's all the binari stuff and like I get it I get why there's oh the wardens came along. So the archers back them up. It's this classic kind of army construction, right? And I just don't think they would like do something like get rid of power of heish In this change or get rid of their mortal wounds I mean My preferred change was sentinels I'll be completely honest with all of you like if I was if I was taking a big swing My sentinel change would be To push them up points and get rid of their mortal wounds when they're lofting Okay, so like in other words when they when they whenever they can't see their target In other words if they have to use the longer range shot the 30 inch shot They they just don't get access to the mortal wounds. It turns off only when they can sort of see the enemy but You know whatever I I'd probably even get kind of aggressive with it and say take off the mortal wound thing by default Your spell gives you to six up But that's probably which could be fine that would be an interesting one as well so yep yeah yeah, I also mentioned today events the Land of light is a In my view a huge part. I mean there's there's a number of variables But land of light is generally a huge part of this particularly in techless builds because techless Yeah, in most games he's going to be able to get that off through a spell portal or you have your lower seeker within buff range And you've got a reroll and you know the lower seeker is a little more rich Risky meaning lower seekers at the board taps with an 18 inches of a key target But in general you're probably doing through a spell portal with land of light And it's about auto and then it's just reroll hits and the real hits is the really toxic part Or one of the toxic parts of this absolutely. It's just it's it's a hat on a hat. It's terrible And Hades you are straight out of your mind I mean I guarantee if I did a survey that was like our sentinels fine And put that out to the vast majority of aos players somehow I would get like an 80 90 percent hit rate of they hate it Like sentinels are the boogie man. They're the constant. Oh this thing is good. Oh, but sentinels Like they are literally the one of the most abusive units in the game right now Yeah, when when analyzing that battle that battle force that came out with the bestilla I was like, I mean this other armies would would kill to have something like this Right. Oh sure Oh, I love that thing when I first saw it. Yeah Now I do agree with Hades point that long range like 25 inch plus range should be reserved for either artillery Or very specific shooting like it feels like that should be the point of our tiller that I do agree with completely Yes, like their range is simply too long. And you know, we've talked we talked about that mentioned it slightly earlier Like the combination of long range plus mortal wounds equals bad time And it's pretty straightforward math It's hiding a lot of point issues with this book Right. And this is one of the things that hey, we'll mention on a stream that This book has a lot of units that are over custom. I'm not getting played right now because it's sentinels are doing what they're giving Yeah, yeah So and it's heroes. It's the cows. It's you know, I think I mean these wind chargers as you name them They haven't exactly been part of a lot of winning lists yet So losing their battalion obviously was a huge change, right? Yeah, because that was what it was allowing a lot of the jank Play totally. Yeah, so yeah a lot of as you got here a lot of units need to go down to balance this It's kind of the eyedness situation You know the sentinels are the eels right now and it's kind of not leading a lot of things not getting played So yep, I agree. There's it's the sentinels are patching over and keeping them in the sinister six right Um and and like if we just killed sentinels I think it would be too much of a blow to the army like believe me I want to kill sentinels and make them not the boogie man They are like I want them to be a valid choice in part of the army That's doing some nice archer shooting to support your melee units in a in a reasonable way Right like that's fine. There's plenty of supportive archer units in the game that don't break it, right? Um, but like that means some other stuff has to come down and things like stone guard Um, um, whatever the new sword masters are like, you know those kinds of things just need some adjustments They they just they would have to come down right One of the kind of last thought on this so when I was playtesting in lumineath I what you know me and like I'm not interested in shooting a lot of shooting So I was just trying out like 20 or 30 Usually just two by 10 two by 10. I don't know where they started out. They're like maybe 140 I know they went up and we had 3.0 which went up in general across the board They felt very reasonable at two by 10 in a list like, you know, they do a little bit But they didn't do a whole lot So the point being if now you're paying like what you'd be paying 170 Yeah 340 points for two by 10 I suspect that a lot of lumineath players would feel like they're not going to get 140 points of value out of those 18 shots Let's say or one unit of 20 at 19 shots for 340 points. I could be wrong Oh, I like to me it's more about Maybe let's address lamb at light in particular. I don't know. I find that that to be The most toxic part of this whole combination. That's fair the lamb is lamb at light Make it plus want to hit take that away and then make sentinel maybe keep them where they are right now Might fix them Well, if you killed lamb at light and got rid of the loft mortal wounds I think I'd be okay with keeping them where they are. Sure Like it's the loft mortal wounds that again being able to push mortal wound shooting Especially on a five up to 30 inches at that that's bad adding the re-rolls worse It's horrific. Yeah Yep Okay All right, seraphon Okay, so here's my my one time They they on the on the 40k data slate. They went in and messed with a couple of scrolls But not a huge amount. I guess they're they're data something I don't know Um, whatever they're called over there data. Are they called data slates? I don't know what they're called I'm gonna call them worse. They went in mess with a couple of worse scrolls. Here's one. I wanted to mess with Okay Craig er Hey, he said this whole segment is fun detected. Hey, look You're right And sometimes I'm going to be fun destroyed because a lot of if one person is having fun at the sacrifice of eight other people Who aren't yeah, it's time for your fun to go. It's fun for me to swing my arms until I punch everybody in the face Or I'll be in a crowded room But I'm also going to do a lot to try to like help everybody else and this is so craig Plus one attack move the rent an egg to plus one damage. No points change Exactly where they are now I Yeah, um, it's funny when I did the faction focus for seraphon, you know what the first comment I got was Um, someone's saying to me. Are you saying that my poor croc cigars aren't good? and And I'm like Buddy, I mean I'm not saying that you can't use them. No, they're not good But yeah, they're I mean they're people love those little dorks. So I would I would love them to actually be good Yeah, and just like Turning these guys into a super cool hammer, right? By the way, you could also make the moon hammer optional so they can all just use the big slammy things, right? Um Then you know, kroyger suddenly become super sweet Uh And I mean like at least maybe not super sweet But they at least become in the conversation because we're talking then about five attack dudes On there'd be fours and threes threes and threes of a skink units nearby neg two rend three damage Yeah, pretty good. That's real damage Right. I hope they don't have this. I hope they don't have the skink keyword Right They don't and that's still a challenge, right? They're still not you still can't buff them very much and all of that But hey, they're kind of a nice standalone hammer that can do a lot of damage if they get into something Like it's the it's the best I could think of without like going in and doing major surgery to it, right? And and again, I don't want to just randomly throw the skink keyword at them for no reason Um, so that suddenly I can take a bunch of buffs like now all the buffs are the problem in seraphon Let's not add more of that. Let's make some let's make some modular Units right that aren't necessarily relying on the buffs that are compelling in a different way Yeah, I like it kind of giving them the paladin treatment that we just saw the stormcast, right? Yeah, exactly So just having a good unit, right? Just y