Welcome, this is gonna be a talk focusing on workflows, how to translate, how some software we've written can translate workflows between specifications. How's this? It's still like that. I might just hold it, yeah, okay. So yeah, this talk is about translating workflows between specifications with the tool that we've created called Janus. And not only that, we're trying to maybe help some people that are current Galaxy users, but also hopefully expose some new users to Galaxy in the process. So workflow systems are kind of like tools themselves, you know, the main thing is that they have inputs, they do some processing and they have outputs. And during the processing, it's not just one thing that's running, it's like a series of steps and they might have parallelization or something like that.  So a lot of us here are familiar with galaxies. So, you know, we've used to having Galaxy workflows and same here, I have like about 20 Galaxy workflows that I use regularly and that's where I always start. So I always start with Galaxy and then only if I kind of have to for some reason, I might think about another solution. Yeah, all these workflows systems are really quite the same. You could write an Xflow for the same workflow that you could write Galaxy. They all have different features and I wish I hadn't just like jump-scale revealed that, but I'm about to say something controversial. There's no best programming language. There's no best workflow system. Okay, good, no riots, that's good. Workflow systems, they kind of each just serve a community. They have different features and they have different purpose and it's just kind of like picking the right tool for the right task. One of the issues though is that the space is pretty divided which there's probably no real good solution for this. It's just a matter of mainly familiarity. Like if you're really familiar with Galaxy, that's probably what you use. If you're really familiar with Nexflow, you know, you really want to work within Nexflow because that's where you're most comfortable. It's also a big investment in time and skill and money really to train staff or something like that if you want to switch from using one workflow spec to another different one. This does present some issues though. For example, like let's say you want to run a specific workflow and you find one on Workflow Hub and it's absolutely perfect, but maybe it's like WDL and your group uses CWL.  Especially if you have to make some small adaptations to it. You might just kind of rewrite it in CWL. It also presents some issues when you have collaboration attempts where maybe a few different institutes or your partners are using a different workflow spec. And so you have to kind of choose, okay, which workflow spec are we going to go with in this situation? And there's kind of no winners there. So back in 2018, we actually had this exact kind of issue we ran into. There was a group of institutes in Melbourne in Parkville who wanted some cancer pipelines, but all of the different institutes involved, they were using different specs. So some of them had CWL, some of them WDL and some of them were using Python scripts. And so as a solution, a tool called Janus was created. It's a Python framework for writing workflows which can then translate out to different specs. So it could translate out to WDL and it could translate out to CWL. And one of the benefits of this was the different groups involved, they didn't have to change like their HPC setups or anything like that. Just had one source of truth, which was the Python workflow and then they could take that, transpile it out to the language they use and then run it on their systems. After a little bit of time, NextFlow Translate was also added because it was becoming really, really popular. And around the same time that NextFlow Translate was being developed, I actually jumped on the team. Previous to that, I'd been working on Galaxy doing tool wrappers. And at that time, we kind of wanted more tools and workflows in Janus so we could transpile out to different specs. And so I kind of proposed the idea, well, why don't we use Galaxy as a kind of reference in some way? Now, if Galaxy had 20 tools, what we probably would have done is we would have written it all manually in Janus, all these different tools and workflows. But Galaxy doesn't have 20 tools and doesn't have 20 workflows, it has thousands, literally thousands. And so we thought, okay, maybe instead of like writing these out manually, maybe we could automatically pass the Galaxy tool XML and Galaxy workflows to generate the Janus for us. And so we created an ingest unit where we could take Galaxy and ingest that into Janus. Currently, like fast forwarding to now, we've got a few other ingest units. So we can kind of pass tools and workflows from different specs into Janus, which expands that ecosystem. And then we could translate them out when we need them as well. But once we had ingest units, we kind of realized, we could actually do end-to-end translations. We don't really need the Janus in the middle, it can just be a middleman. And so what you can do now is if you have a Galaxy workflow, for example, you could take that workflow or tool, run Janus translate, which is our new feature. It will ingest the Galaxy into an in-memory representation in Janus. And for example, if it's workflow, all those tools will be discovered in the workflow and translated to. And that's just like an in-memory representation. And then if you specified you wanted to go out to NextFlow, then it would transpire to NextFlow and write it to file. So as an example, I've just, you know, got a history, a workflow here, which is unicycle assembly. And what I do is download that. So the .ga file. And then once I have that on the command line, I can use Janus translate. And I say, Janus translate, dash dash from, that's where you're going from, dash dash to NextFlow, that's where you wanna translate out to. And then you point it to the direction where the file is. And what that will produce is some NextFlow, which is supposed to be like an equivalent workflow. What gets output is folder, because of course if you're translating workflow, you've got tools, you've got workflows, sub-workflows, you've maybe got some supporting scripts, that kind of thing, config. And so it comes out in this folder, it's translated folder. The main file is kind of like your normal next, your normal Galaxy workflow that you were seeing in the workflow editor. Modules contains all of the tool wrappers that were discovered and translated. NextFlow config is the inputs and some other stuff like maybe config for running on Singularity. We have another folder called source, which is where we place Galaxy wrappers just so that users can have a look at those, in case the translation wasn't fully complete for some reason. And then sub-workflows and templates for stuff like scripts or scripts in the tool directory or config files. We handle inputs in NextFlow.config, so that's kind of like your core workflow inputs. The main workflow file there, it's just classic NextFlow. We've got some imports from the modules. These are the tools that have become NextFlow processes, declaring some variables and then we start the workflow. And then each tool will be its own NextFlow process in the modules folder. Talking about some limitations of this feature we have, it's quite hard to actually translate between all of these specs because you have to support all of them. And they have really different competing paradigms and things that they support. For example, with Galaxy, you can write Python code, you know, cheetah, and that's completely arbitrary. You know, you can write pretty much whatever you want. In CWL, they have JavaScript. And NextFlow has groovy or Java, completely arbitrary. So even just translating expressions is very difficult and that's still a challenge for us. But just focusing on the params, the Galaxy params and freeform cheetah processing, this also can be a bit tricky for a pass at a workout. You know, what's the actual underlying software? Of course in Galaxy, params have two jobs. One job is to supply data into the actual command in the command section. But the other job is to render a nice tidy UI and that's kind of the preference. So sometimes sacrifices are made so that it's very clean on the front end. And in the back end, it's a little bit more tricky. So what we're doing when we pass these files is we actually, we kind of started thinking, okay, the params, the inputs to the tool, or realize that's not the case. There's a lot of preprocessing and stuff that happens within the tool command. And what we're actually looking for is in this command body of the tool XML, what we're looking for is the actual software command. Like for example, FastQC and then arguments, flags, positionals, that kind of thing. It's quite tricky though because it's kind of spread out. It's distributed throughout the whole command and a lot of the values can be calculated dynamically. So what we're trying to do is pass this, work out what the actual software command is inside the Galaxy command section. And then for example, in cases like this, we want to link the parameters to the arguments that the command has. So looking at this one, we've got contaminants, which is a list of contaminants. This is FastQC. And that renders out really nicely in the UI. And when we actually look at where it's referenced in the command section, it's pretty clear what it does. It's an option, it's got a prefix and the value. We can see the contaminants parameter is referenced. And so we know that that actually is a direct link to the input parameter. So when we're passing our workflow and we've got this, we pass the tool state for the workflow step and it says, here's the contaminants file. We know, okay, that's actually related to the dash dash contaminants option in FastQC. It gets a lot trickier with other inputs. For example, the input file for FastQC can be a bunch of different types and it appears throughout the command section in a lot of different places. So there's a lot of stuff going on here, but the thing I want you to take away from it is there's really no direct link between that parameter and where it appears on the command line. It actually, when you see on the command line, just down here, it's no longer what it started with. This here, it's references input file and here it's input file SL and that's because we've done some preprocessing on that. So because there's no direct link, things become quite tricky. Cheater is meant to be kind of resolved at runtime with real data. And so the kind of cheater gets resolved and then we actually have values for everything, but we're passing these files statically and we don't have input data. So when, for example, it's looking at the data type of the input data and trying to work out what it should do, that's quite tricky for us because we're never gonna have the data. We pass these files statically. That said, we do know that stuff like this happens and so we actually have, in this case, a system of aliases and this gets passed fine. It does know that input file SL is referencing that parameter, but this is kind of just to explain that Galaxy tool XML can be quite complicated. And so in some cases, the translation isn't perfect, but a lot of the time it's pretty close. If we were to take fast QC and translate with Janice translate to next flow, get something out like this. The thing, some of the things I wanna focus on just quickly with this is that we're doing a couple of things in the backend for you so that it actually is kind of like a running process. For example, we always check if there's a valid container for the software requirements on Quay.io. So we make some API calls. To get this tool in the first place, we make toolshed API calls to actually look at the wrapper that's referenced in the workflow and then download it.  So kind of running Galaxy as we translate, which is kind of fun. But yeah, when there's a single requirement, we just look up Quay.io and grab the relevant container. But if there's multiple requirements, we use the Galaxy Mold Build Toolkit to generate a new container on the fly based on the different requirements that tool needs. And you'll see that when we actually, just this little fun thing, when we translate this to next flow, we do actually understand that that input file appears last on that one. So we've made that connection. Can I also translate to CWR? Oh, we're just focusing on the next one today. So yeah, basically with this Galaxy next flow translation, you can expect that the workflow structure is correct. Simple tools will have a completely valid translation and complex tools might have some adjustment. I'm looking at you, High Sat too. That's a challenging one. So yeah, it really depends on the complexity of tool wrappers, but at the end of the day, you at least get all the structure and you get all your processes nicely templated out and maybe you need to fix them up in a couple spots. So yeah, in future, we'd like to do some more handling of dynamic config files. They also use the cheated templating, so a better solution for that. Also like to identify mutually exclusive arguments, looking more at the select prams in Galaxy and just improve cheated parsing in general. And we'd also like to pass all of the Galaxy tools. They're tests and then do the translation, build a test suite, run those tests to make sure that those translated tools are valid. And that's really good because we have metrics then. We can tell you, okay, how is it 80% of time the tool is runable, 50%, 90% that kind of thing. So yeah, in summary, hope that we can help connect the workflow space. And really something that I want out of this is exposing your users to Galaxy and especially people who, for example, only use NextFlow, get them to start in Galaxy, write the workflow and then translate at the end. Thanks. Thank you, Grace, amazing talk. Maybe one really, really, really, really, really quick question here, I think. I've got to, but we'll just choose one. I mean, that was really amazing, thanks a lot. I guess I have one question. I mean, so your approach of rendering Cheetah templates is really cool. I mean, one thing I thought immediately, like, do you think we can sort of embed that in the backend to as the user changes parameters or render the command line that will be run? It's not super easy to tell just by changing the parameters which command line is running, but like papers often say, well, use the dash Y option with 33 or something. And like, well, which one is it? We've got to find it in the Galaxy interface. Yeah, yeah, I don't think that, I'm not going to stand here and say, yeah, we should change the way tools are written. I don't think that that's like really particularly viable. I think that if anything, we just need to be a bit clever about how we pass this kind of structure. That said, yeah, I should actually add on to this as well, something we wanted to do. Maybe it could play into this in some way. We were thinking about putting Janus Translate as an actual tool on Galaxy. So instead of having to like, docker pool or pip install Janus, you can just run Janus in Galaxy. So maybe there's a way that we can work that in there. And I mean, maybe- Do some analysis. Just a tiny additional question. You mentioned going from Galaxy to Nextflow. How far is like, I mean, how, I mean, basically I'm asking the other way around like, can you go from Nextflow back to Galaxy and like, where are you with that? We don't have Nextflow ingest yet, but if there's enough interest, we'll add that. Yeah. Thank you. Let's thank Grace once again. Thank you so much. And our next speaker is, sorry, if I'm pronouncing this correctly, Katazanya. Yeah, that's fine. Most of you know me as Kasia. Hi. And I will talk today about a fair day test you are shipping Galaxy. So whoever visits my poster, you know that I'm very excited about the fair. And first stands for findable accessible interoperable and reusable data or research. It's not, yes. So what our goals are, in terms of fair, we would like to develop data management training which will be addressed to everyone and supports everyone in a way of reproducible science. And also we would like to embed existing training and help people improve. I'm a thinker, maybe too loud. We want to improve everyone's research experience. Is that good? Very good. Yeah. I have only short talk and I can talk for hours. So let's wrap it up. So we already developed a set of training materials available through Galaxy Training Network. So if you're interested, go there and have a look. They are addressing very basic stuff focusing on fair in a nutshell and also fair data management solutions for people who are writing grants, publishing and are super involved in data. So we are trying to address whole scope of audience and also how you can improve your existing Galaxy Training materials. So shout out to Helena and Sasky for constantly improving the training network. And we also have our own community in the UK. So if you visited my poster, you're already aware that we are having Fair Data Stewardship Fellowship and 24 fellows from 17 organizations. What is cool about that, that our guys are focusing on different data and on different areas of expertise. So we have people from climate, from agriculture, from chemistry. So they overcome different issues with fairness and data. So what is the whole verification process? What we can do about our data and then training essentially, is we constantly see publications or data released without lacking unique identifiers or lacking proper metadata. And even stored somewhere which is not really reusable and it's not possible for a secondary data use. And so we would like to highlight the opportunities and what can be done within the existing data or the training. So hopefully you are aware of our Fair Research section and you can find out more there where is material provided by us and amazing Crocrates team. And yeah, hopefully you can come and talk to me after the talk. And I think I fit perfectly in time. So we have time for questions. Thank you, we do. Any questions? If you have data and you don't know what to do with them or if you have existing training and you would like some expertise on that. Yeah, we... Svening's going back to back with two talks and we're gonna have questions at the end of each one if we have time. Sorry, Matt, any further, please take it away. Thank you. So my first talk is called Accessing and Processing Sensitive Data in the Public Galaxy Server. So this is the output of an implementation study that was now finishing which is called Strength and Data Management in Galaxy is one small part of larger projects. And the work package two is the one which was about sensitive data. And this talk is mainly about the outputs of the first task which is named encrypted data processing. But I need to say a bit about the second task but I will not talk so much about that in detail. So, and this is about the data access. Where do the sensitive data come from? And integration with the EGA which is the European Genome-Film Archive in its central form and also in its federated form. So a few words about that. So there is this project that is very hot now in Europe which is called the Federated European Genome-Film Archive which is based upon the existing EGA which has been in, I don't know exactly when it started but it's been there for four years in two locations in the UK and in Spain in Barcelona. The problem is that legal restrictions to sensitive data and then to personal genomes are often at least in Norway and most places they're not allowed to be shared outside the countries. So it's not really a solution to provide them to UK or Spain. So instead there's this federated system which is set up with a database in each country and this works so that the data itself is only available in the country while the metadata is shared so that you can search across and if you find anything interesting you can then apply for access and then get direct links to get the data if you're it's granted. And also a bit proud that Norway is the first node that was officially signed this collaboration agreement. There are also others coming and I don't know exactly who assigned it. Yeah, it's also part of this large EU funded project called the Genomic Data Infrastructure as you need to speed up here. Okay, so there is already some tools you might have even developed them for downloading data from EGA. The one thing that's important here is that these tools assume a private galaxy installation so they decrypt the data and have them available in the galaxy in decrypted form. Which is fine if one has that but then you sort of have one installation per project and you have to have a security infrastructure for the galaxy. So when it's probably to be looked at different scenarios one of the scenarios is exactly this we have a single private galaxy server or a variant of that to have one galaxy server per user project within an infrastructure that supports that. And then the scenario number two which is the most difficult one is how can one manage to do this also in a public setting. So we decided to focus on that one because if we can solve that one at least the other ones should be easier to solve. So let's go to the most difficult one. That has some consequences and this is already in the task. So you would need some form of data encryption at the user level so that every user can encrypt data for user that specific use and also some sort of management actually that part we don't really need that much in galaxy that's happened to fall out a bit. This is based on the standard from the Global Alliance for Global Health which is called the Crypt 4GH which sort of makes all of this possible really. Pulsar we need to consider and also proof of concept implementation. So this was the task goals. A few words about who we can trust in this setting. That sort of sets the scope of solution. So the one thing that we definitely can trust is the data provider. So that is the AGS would be officially approved in different countries and the authentication authorization is there that's sort of assumed to be safe. The other thing that we do assume that we trust here is the user's local computer environment. It's not that it necessarily is secure but it's sort of out of the scope that it is the responsibility of the user to do that. So and that's also part of the given when user can get data from EJ. It is assumed that the user are able to keep that data safe. So that's sort of out of scope. And the compute environment. So we want to be able to do sensitive data analysis distributed way, right? So we assume then that the environment is safe. So this is not in the detail of exactly how to set up that environment. And also that these three ABC that there is a safe way to authenticate and exchange keys between them. So it's not going into the authentication issues that that's sort of outside the scope here. So who do we not trust? Well, the internet, obviously. We'd also do not trust the Galaxy code base, sorry to say that. There has been some security holes and there probably still lots, I don't know, some left. We cannot, when it's talked about sensitive data, we cannot really trust Galaxy code base and the Galaxy admins, sorry. We cannot trust you either. At least not trusting you should make your life easier though. Tools and workflows, we don't really trust them but we some, this is out of scope but we need to have a sniper some trust, some certification mechanism, something that's out of scope, let's assume that this is there. And also that compute should be shielded from internet so that it's sort of just to share your data while it's running, that sounds cool. Right. Okay, so where we started with this is the issue of private, this is a private public key pair issue and you would need to, at least we thought that we would need to share their private key somehow because the private key is needed for the encrypting of the data from EJL. So we looked into the issue of could we use the Galaxy vault for that? Because we need to give Galaxy the way of access to the data, that's what we thought. We decided that in any case, even though this would be a rather secure solution, that giving away the private key is still less secure than not. So we ended up looking into the other idea if what if the user do not share a private key at all so that the private key will remain on the computer or user environment, all time it's not shared to anyone. And it's actually crypt4gage provides a solution for that. So basically you can re-crypt data sets and you don't have to take the whole data set. You can just re-crypt a small header and that header contains keys that can use to decrypt the rest of the data set. And then there's two different ways of that that can happen in Galaxy. One is to do that re-cryption inside the browser in the front end or one can do it in the back end. Okay, I've got a little timer. This is what we came up with. This is a quite complex thing. Oh, that's right. So let me take me through this in super speed. Data import, as I mentioned, sensitive data is available. This is sort of already set up in the FIGA system. There's this header which is re-crypted for Pacific public private key pair. So the user provides public key which comes in the top pair. And the header is re-crypted so that the only user with the user's private key can decrypt this. Then there needs to be some script for a gauge support in Galaxy. We have added a script for a gauge specific data set. And the way we solve this is that this header is then provided in the metadata. So the data set in Galaxy remains the same while you can change the metadata header and re-crypt that and that is so secure. And then on the user's side, we have designed a way that we can set up a REST server that's run locally and which provides the re-cryption. So basically Galaxy talks to the locally running REST server. Ask, can you re-crypt this data set? And everything that is connected to the keys happen, the private keys happen and locally, it's not shared through Galaxy at all. Yeah, so in order for this to work, then the public, the re-crypt service needs to have access to the public key of the compute node and there's the need for a key server, that does that exchange and let's go into detail of that now. How would that work in the user interface? So this is the one way that it could work. And you have a functioning working prototype of this. So basically we just added a small key icon which then starts this request to the local re-cryption service and re-crypt to the compute node that's configured then locally and you get a re-crypted method header which is added back to the data sets. You get new data sets, but it's just the same, pointing to the same data sets on disk, just the change in this header. And also there's also then an expiration date of that key, so after a certain while it will stop working. And then in the secure node, the data sets are decrypted, you exit the job in the containers as usual and it's then encrypted again for the encryption of the user's private key and then the user's private key is already there in the compute node with the key server which is not really shown here, it's shown there, it's not easy to see. We have yet to find the best way to set this up in Galaxy so we need some help with the figuring out that. So we can set up like pre and post processing perhaps that's the decryption in encryption but how to do that and how to do that across job runners, not really sure, so that's something that we need help with. But I mean, it is definitely doable. And also the question is also how to manage the intermediate data sets within here. I mean, this should not be any traces left but this is also assumed to happen inside the secure compute. So finally, once this is done, the output is then encrypted and user is on the one that has the key to decrypt it and can download the data sets and decrypt the outputs or alternatively can re-crypt again for a new round on your analysis just starting from the scratch basically. So limitations is that visualizations will not be available which is probably quite large limitation. One could probably figure out ways to do that but that's a bit difficult so it's out of scope or this project possibly within the client possibly with some sort of terminal system. Yeah, also this is more detail on the key server but I'll skip that now, it's too much details anyway. It's there if you want to look at that later. Yeah, here's the acknowledgements and logos. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, we've got time for one question before we start with the short talk. Thank you. There are a number of standards when it comes to key management. So this FIPS variety, which one do you satisfy? We have not looked into that but basically the key server in our proof concept is just a simple Python thing but you could put proper key management systems there possibly but I mean that we haven't looked at detail on how to do that. Thank you. All right, we might get your slides for your short talk up now. While we're doing that, does any of that work help with the reverse of uploading to Phenome genome? I think we're just gonna make that process any easier from personal experience sometimes it's not. I haven't really thought about that but possibly, yeah. Possibly it can, yeah, but I have to think about it. That's enough for now, we'll go over it. All right, on to your short talk please. Okay, so over to something completely different. And the world-card tyranny, embrace path-based interactive tools. This is a bit of a call to arms or something with arms. Okay, so this is an issue which has been here for a long time and everybody who has been working with interactive tools or developing interactive tools or administering knows probably a bit about this. So the issue in brief is that interactive tools in Galaxy, they are really, really cool. However, they are difficult to deploy which hinders their adoption and availability. And there's a technical issue for this, I'll go a bit into detail here. So the issue is that every interactive tool instance, every time you start a tool, you get a specific URL which needs them to be routed to the corresponding container, the container that runs the actual tool. And the first solution to that problem is to have this in the subdomain. So you have some, it's not exactly like this, but you have some then hash things that's put in the beginning of the domain. And you need to map that to the actual container. And this is done in two steps. So first, you have a web server proxy like engine X running on your server which maps it to this service called the Galaxy ET proxy. And that server then maps this specific hash into a specific container, a specific port that runs that. So this is sort of how it's been working all the time more or less, I think. The problem with this is that it requires something called a wild card DNS certificate. So in order to secure the connection, you have this DNS certificates and this need to be of a wild card type. Basically, you can have anything.mygalaxy.org, for instance. Problem with that is that these certificates are inherently less secure than normal ones because it allows attackers basically to set up subdomain servers if they're able to reach the system and they will look very, very safe to use it because of the domain.  So many admins do not like that at all. And many students do not allow the use of wild card DNS certificates at all, which is not good for attractive tools. It's also a bit clumsy, et cetera, but it's not sort of a bit out of the ordinary way and often admins drop supporting this completely. The alternative is to have a path-based URL. So instead of having these hash numbers in the beginning, you add them after some slashes in the path. And that was introduced in 2019 or thereabouts. And basically, there was two steps of that, a transformation from this way of running URLs into the subdomain way that happened in the Yuvisky context and then the same proxy that was there. This unfortunately stopped working and also hidden, I don't know if many people knew about it, but in any case stopped working when we replaced Yuvisky with Unicorn. So I have then made that work again by, first solution was just to provide a similar setup using nginx instead of Yuvisky, but this would then require an extra sort of web server on top of Yuvisky. So especially for development, it's not really a good solution. That's the first solution and then the second solution, which is now part of the latest scale release, is to also support path-based URLs in Galaxy IT Proxy, which is now there and this now works out of the box. The problem is that there's only two of the tools, all the tools that are there, at least the ones I tried. I just made two of them work with this and so OpenRefine and the Ubuntu desktop. All the others you crash and burn or something. It's very easy to test, it just requires domain, which is a tag in the tool XML, set it false, try to run the tool and if it works, it works, but it's just for those two. The problem is that there's typically a web server inside the Docker container and that might not be set up for to allow anything. I mean, if all the links in sort of the pages are relative, it should work and that's probably the way it is in this too, but otherwise typically you would need to configure the container with the correct path. This is the path you're served under and that will, I believe in most cases, solve the situation, might not solve everything, but I think it will solve the majority of the situations. So first we need to find out, okay, for every time we run it, this is the URL you run under and provide that to the tool and you need to configure the tool and that this needs to be done on per tool basis. So it's quite a bit of work, but not very much, it's sort of doable, but one needs to go together and actually try to do this and solve this problem. So this is where I end. Can we in this co-fest come together and try to make at least some, but perhaps also all the interactive tools work with path-based URLs. I will be here and I'll try to help you figure out how to do this. I just need people that are interesting in joining this effort. And finally, this session, like to give us two short talks. Hi, my name's Sujan and I work at the Center for Infectious Digestionomics and One Health. So we're about British Columbia. Like to say thank my son, Hawk, who actually helped me put this presentation together with this magic of video editing. He's joining online due to a very complex, laundry-related issue. I talk, I spend a lot of my time talking to people, like people at the Ministry of Health, people at the Health Authority, privacy officers, governance officers. Why? Data access. So data sharing turned out to be a very complicated problem. Just to give you an example of some of the projects we're actually doing to tackle this issue, trusted execution environment. So some of you spoke to the need for creating a secure research environment. So I have led the creation of a secure cloud environment in partnership with the three of the Health Authority in BC. Another big challenge is mapping related issue. So different research groups are using different terminologies, ontologies, and how do we ensure that we can talk to other people? There's an interoperability between different research groups. To take it even further, how can we create interoperability between research communities to a clinical community, for example? So I'm working with the global standards organizations such as LSF7 and FHIR, make sure that there's an interoperability between the two issue. That's a mapping related issue, which is my next presentation, not this one. So this presentation, I'd like to focus on privacy, which is a massive challenge. I believe that researchers, we all have responsibility to manage the data well, to mitigate any potential harm for privacy. Good news is that there's this emerging community who are working on privacy, the privacy enhancing technology, which is what my presentation is about. So I have only 10 seconds to talk about, I'll define the problem space, and I'm actually gonna play a video. The K, who's my collaborator, says Samsung SPS, who has worked with us to solve this problem. So the use case for us is this current Shigella outbreak, and then we're finding that the genome-only clustering is too broad. So we're finding that by accessing broader sets of contextual data that are associated with the sequencing, we can do analysis that's much more powerful. But it's been very difficult to gain access to a lot of sensitive information for broader contextual data, especially coming from the hospital. So using Beacon, now this is where Galaxy comes in. So Galaxy has integrated with Beacon, I believe the latest version is V2. So we have way to easily search and find the data. So once that initial contact is made, you really find out who has the data that you're looking for, how do you go about accessing a broader set of data who may be sensitive? So that's where the technology such as PSI could come in. PSI stands for Private Set Intersection. So hopefully this give you a flavor of a different type of privacy preservation technique. The traditional technique for privacy preservation often assume that if you gain access to data, you have to see the data. So this give you a different perspective of what if you can compute on the data without seeing the data? Hi, everyone. This is Kyohan from Samsung Estates Research. I present about Private Set Intersection, which is using our demo for privacy. I'm sorry that I cannot attend the conference offline. Let's start with the definition of Private Set Intersection for sure PSI. PSI is cryptographic protocol to get intersection without revealing each party's input. Suppose two institutions want to know about some information on intersection between two data sets in each party. Each, if they don't want to share their data set to opposite, PSI can be used. Actually, the PSI is not just for the intersection. There are various variants of PSI which are PSI cardinality, PSI sum, and circuit PSI. PSI cardinality is to compute the size of intersection and does not reveal any information except the size. PSI sum is to compute summation of values which are corresponding to the intersection. And circuit PSI is general protocol to support arbitrary computation on the intersection. At this point, some audience may be curious about how PSI can be used in real world applications. Intersection itself is powerful computation than expected. Many questions in real world applications can be represented using intersection. For example, if two companies want to know about how many customers are in common, they can use PSI cardinality with each company's customer list. If web browser user wants to know about their breached password that I'm using, PSI between passwords saved in web browser and breached password database can answer the question without revealing any personal information. For this reason, PSI is already used in various systems like Microsoft Edge, Google Chrome, and Apple's PSI system for users' privacy. In addition, the performance of PSI is improved a lot. For example, I think I'm running out of time here, so fast forward to our use case using Shigella. At each party. It's like cardinality to get the answers. This is a recorded video of our demo. First, we can see the C3 file at each party. With proper command, including... So I guess the key message is here is that the privacy is very important. That's an important area for research as well. For those of you who would like to learn more about the privacy enhancing technology, like I said, there's a broader community who's working to tackle this problem. So UN, a privacy enhancing technology lab is one example of that, which I'm part of. And Samsung SDS is part of that consortia as well. So please do get in touch for those who are interested in learning more about this privacy preservation area. Thank you. So this one is not a topic related to data access and data sharing. So I spoke a little bit about the importance of mapping and I believe standardization is truly powerful. So I just came from the MedInfo conference and interacted with a lot of people, global standard organizations, FHIR and LGS7. And I was just speaking with some of you about creating research repository and implementing FHIR's specification to enable ease of interoperability between the research folks and research data and then the clinical data which is really the primary source for some of you who are working in the healthcare sector. So there's been a lot of mapping, exercise and work that's been done to date. The Seneca worked as part of work group three. So Seneca working group three pushed out a lot of product related to data mapping. So this is to enable harmonizations of co-hormata data for human curation purposes. So a lot of NLP related product, data standardization and specifications. And then it works with the beacon in terms of searching data and discover those data. So there's a lot of work that you could leverage for this community. So in terms of mapping pipeline, imagine you have a cohort data description and then they're relevant entity you can identify within your cohort. Imagine you can map them easily to other relevant research work through ontologies. And there's a standard ideation and consensus in terms of how to do quite things. There are four different NLP models that's been developed to really enable and automate this data mapping processes to enable interoperability between different research work. So Zuma and disorders are created by EBI, the European Bioinformatics Institute. Black Smapper is developed by our institute that Simon's Region University. This is currently adopted by FDA both to use for foodborne related surveillance. So this is another video I have to cut this short. So we have Yizhu from EBI. He's gonna talk a little bit about the Zuma as a model. There's the aggregated API. So you can leverage and access this API within Jupiter, for example, within Galaxy. We have a plan to package this tool up within Galaxy and make it available for ease of integration. I'm curious to see what people might be using this tool for further data standardization and interoperability. Zuma is an ontology annotation tool developed at NBL EBI's port team. Zuma is backed by link data repository of annotation knowledge, which contains curated annotations derived from many publicly available data sources, such as Expression Atlas, OpenTargets, and GeoScatlub. Therefore, Zuma can facilitate annotations relating to a diverse range of topics, including disease and phenotype drug treatments anatomical components, species, cell type, and more. Furthermore, Zuma can be easily configured to use new data sources or prioritize certain data sources for others to enhance the context sensitivity. As part of the context mining group, we have developed an aggregated text mining API to query each of the models developed by different teams. The API is exposed as a simple web tool and we use to annotate short terms using different models. In this example, we annotate a short phrase using Zuma and Hesso models. They give different ontology based on the knowledge they have. Hesso, giving UMLS calls most of the time when Zuma giving ontology is stored or used in its repository of knowledge. We are also developing a Galaxy tool wrapper around this aggregated model. So it can be used in Galaxy to annotate terms with the text and ontologies. The stuff that I haven't talked about here, it's on the poster for those of you who are interested in terms of how to use this aggregated API within Galaxy environment. I have a poster up front and I'm happy to chat further. And yeah, so a little bit of I guess promotion that this LaxMap tool that we have developed today is currently used by the FDA for their data standardization purposes for food-borne disease surveillance. And then also the IRIDA, which is the Canadian product used for SARS-CoV-2 surveillance, it's using the data specification enabled by our technology Alexa. So that's it for me. Thank you very much. Thank you.


Good afternoon everyone. I mean really kudos to all of you for braving the Bombay weather and the Bombay rains to honestly be here It wasn't easy. It took me one hour 15 minutes to get here. So yeah Thanks for being with us and thanks for the panel. So yeah, let's kick start the discussion So placing better bets with digital media, you know, that was that was a thought process And you know, we were all racking our brains together how to go about it and it essentially boiled down to you know understanding how the digital marketing domain has transformed over the last five years how it has evolved and You know, we are here to assess essentially about What is the depth and the pace of how digital marketing has grown? So I have a very very esteemed panel here I mean if you are having this discussion five years ago where I mean by digital marketing was strong But growing and evolving versus right now. It's a huge difference and I think It has impacted most Abrams business. So, you know, the pre-covid the post-covid digital marketing era So I'd like Brian to kick start his thoughts. How do you think that, you know, digital marketing has transformed and evolved over the last five years? What's like your take especially pre-covid post-covid? How do you see the things going? Thanks, Raghav. That's a motherhood question. So I'll let him to brief answer As probably the oldest marketer on this panel representing the oldest brand for sure I represent Thomas Cook, which has been in business for 145 years in India. So no question that we are the oldest So, yeah, it's a it's an interesting question I think for a long while now everybody's talked about digital as sort of breathing down the network traditional media. I think that face Went by in a whoosh, especially after the pandemic The pandemic accelerated the whole digital revolution in any case India was leapfrogging over a lot of the typical evolutionary cycles of the I think My mandate when I came into Thomas Cook about 12 years ago was to really try to bridge the traditional to digital Domain from marketing standpoint because typically the brand used to appeal to older Customers more packaged to us and that kind of stuff and we were going into a Individual traveler more experiential kind of environment in obviously the youngest Demography in the world and the fastest growing economy in the world What we've done and I probably am unique in that We do a bit of both Today actually were probably poised equally within traditional and digital and a lot of what we're doing had you know has really moved from about a hundred percent traditional as recently as five six years ago to you know from a Impact point of view probably being about 70 30 70 digital and and that's really coming from the fact that especially post pandemic we've seen a big growth in individual customers versus group customers and Also the average age of our customers actually come down by 10 years Which I think is a telling testimony to what we wanted to do and digital's ability to do that Today, I think nobody colors digital with just one single brush. There's so many layers to it I think we are at the danger of sort of categorizing digital as one Universal thing and I think that's really the complexity of it, but I don't want to take everybody's time So shabu satish awake. I mean you guys have seen hundreds and thousands of brands You don't make that journey and make that transition. You know love to hear your take on it. So, you know, I'll just Just go slightly behind if you look at the entire digital population in India, right? It still stands at about 45% So when I put a lens to that and and see the opportunity I still feel that we still have a 50% opportunity lying in India and that's what we are experiencing in the last few years COVID had its own course and a bliss while we all saw and experienced the course of it. The other side of the story was it actually gave birth to a lot of platforms Which typically might or would have actually grown slower. For example, you know, how fast the entire audio or App Flags, Spotify, Ghana, everything burst right How the entertainment utility segment actually grew? How gaming sector grew? Traditionally when we used to look at planning it used to be Google, Facebook, programmatic and some, you know, top 15 vendors and then some RTB audience while going Now post COVID that entire audience segment has changed. Now we know that, you know, right from a 13 year old to a 25 year old to a 55 to 60 year old as well There is some digital asset which is, which has been accessed probably in the last about three years where there is an opportunity for a market year to go and trap the audience Or probably not trap the wrong word to, you know, at least get it to the audience and serve them the relevant ads. That is the kind of shift that we are seeing of how planning has changed from a four segment to a 25 segment With the birth of new platforms with audience really engaging the time spent on mobile devices and smart TVs, connected TVs are actually increased. So, and then I feel that we are still 55% away from where we should be. That's how I see it. Yeah, I think pretty much summed up by Shibu and but I would just add that when you see a cement brand running ads on digital, you know, it kind of tells you where the world has come from a single digit Percentages that we used to track when I was at Komli to then getting into 20 and 30% to finally crossing the 50% and interestingly 2019 was the first year globally when digital was larger than non digital And that point has just come in India just three years later means that there has been a substantial acceleration that we've seen in India too. Coming to planning, I mean, we kind of see that on digital planning has also become much more dynamic as opposed to a plan that's cast in stone. And like Shibu, you were saying, I mean, going down to hundreds of micro cohorts that you are able to track and tune and change the communication and the Frequencies of communication depending on what stage of the fun of the audience is. I think it finally feels like digital branding is mainstream digital media is mainstream. And we are seeing advertisers drafting it across verticals. We are seeing Offline agencies finally opening up, you know, the ones that were really the laggards, finally having their digital presence, partnering and first of all, building their own digital presence, the Bikaji's of the world getting stronger on digital. I think these are exciting times. I actually have a slightly tangential take on this whole thing, right, which is who's not digital. And I don't think that making digital or celebrating digital the way we are celebrating is doing justice to how well permeated it is in the fabric of society today. And I think post pandemic, though, the major shift that I've seen across brands and, and I'm very new to this space, right? I mean, I've worked in a large agency network for 12 years. I'm a very late entrant to this elite group of founders. I'm only I'm probably the only non founder here, but late entered nonetheless. But I've seen that across the spectrum that now it's all about understanding how at each stage of the brand consumer interaction, we can have an intervention, right? It's no longer about I'm going to first show an ad on TV, build some awareness and then expect them to act on digital, so on and so forth. I think we've been talking about complex journeys for a very long time. I think the journeys are really simple. The idea is that do you know your consumer? If you know your consumer, do you know where they are? And if you know where they are, are you there with the right message at the right time? As simple as that, right? So one thing that has changed post pandemic and Abraham and I were talking about this earlier this morning is that a lot of organizations that were not data aware or were not data sensitive have started to become that, right? I think the role of CMOs have changed. We see new designations like chief growth officer and not just new designations, new responsibilities, right? Where CMOs are not just responsible for how the brand is seen or placed or priced, but also the growth of the business and penetration and expansion and so on and so forth, right? And that puts a greater responsibility on agencies as well. That we don't look at digital as just another medium, but a vehicle to drive business and growth for our clients. I think that's the biggest shift that has happened. The importance of digital in that sense has really gotten elevated. Of course, MaTeC data adoption is still at a very nascent stage in India as compared to many other parts of the world, but at least people have started to ask those questions, right? At least us as agencies have started to feel challenged to do more homework, to learn more, to be able to advise our clients better. That's the biggest shift for me. That's very well put. And coming to your point on marketing officer's growth, role evolving to more of a growth role. How would you rate, because you are interacting with folks every day, the digital maturity of a marketing officer or the marketing teams? If you have to rate it, you see that also has significant, but how open are they to new innovations? You know, in digital, we have things changing left, right and center. You have new innovations, new technologies, new platforms. What is the digital maturity in experimenting that? What is the digital maturity in adopting that? If I can go, yeah. I think CMOs are in a very tricky spot right now, especially if you look at the way the economy is behaving. Yeah, I mean, India is probably a light in a larger canvas of darkness, but that still doesn't mean that the market is not challenging for us. It's very challenging. So even if you had the saviness and the digital maturity, every small decision that you take is about how the business is going to grow or sustain, right? So that's what makes it tricky for a CMO today. The fact that even after two decades of doing digital marketing in India, we still don't have robust end to end measurement of how digital contributes to everyday sales of products getting picked off the shelf or on the website. That's the biggest challenge that a CMO faces, right? A lot of times, that's where the digital saviness and maturity sort of comes into play because there your gut comes onto the table rather than all the signs, right? If you have the in-depth understanding of how digital behaves, if you've done enough experimentation at small scale to see the success and if you build that robust data set and learning, you're able to make that decision far more confidently. I have a slightly different thought. It is not that the maturity in the market is not there. It's the acceptance of probably brand and market years to actually invest in that. For example, I'll just give you very small examples, right? Things like, you know, tracking fraud, right? Things like programmatic or things like automation. I see a reluctance in brands paying the additional cost. They will tell an agency, you guys are charging an agency, the tool cost should actually be a part of that. It will not ever make a difference. It will never stack up. We've done that to ourselves. You realize that, right? I'm sure that everybody would be doing some part of the other in their own way. But I believe that, you know, that is where the maturity is there. The willingness and the openness to actually invest slightly more into these platforms is very, very critical. Having said that, one big change which is also coming in, even when we talk to CMOs or offline guys, they want to understand digital. They want to learn digital because they understand that at some point in time, only mainline or only being a specific platform level might shun their growth. Digitally soon or probably anyways is overtaking. So it's important for them to understand how digital is also going to play a complementary role. And now when we, I am a part of the network group, so I see that it is not a digital war or it is not a, you know, mainline war. It is an integrated war, like he rightly said, right? What is the user journey? What touch point? What platforms are actually going to be the right mix to use? That is what is going to change. One indicator of that maturity that we see is a few years back, branding and performance were looked at as two different things in discontinuity. Branding would be largely offline first and digital would be largely performance. To now, relatively more and more market years evolving to accept that it is a continuum, a brand performance continuum and therefore also the way to look at it as digital as the center stage of the strategy that is driving that brand performance continuum. And somewhere we are using that or we see that as a measure of that maturity of the market here that we see in front of us. If I can just add to sort of build on a lot of points that all of you have made. I think part of the problem is marketers, the big attraction of digital versus traditional and as an older marketer we have seen both, has been or at least in principle was that there is more data and it is more clean and you understand what you are getting for what you are investing. Unfortunately, and I am saying this with some level of responsibility here, a lot of the digital ecosystem and providers and agencies and creators like you unfortunately have not created to marketers like me the kind of transparency or even putting your money where your mouth is from a performance and return on investment point of view. In the traditional world it was fairly easy for a marketer because there were very few choices. There were big ticket choices, you had the money or you didn't have the money and there were very few avenues to put that money in and the response if you will nobody judged you on because it was spray and prayer, right? Today and the whole principle of digital was listen we are giving you accuracy more and more cohorts you know exactly who you are targeting the right mind space you know the right point in time, the right behavior and so on and so forth but unfortunately to my mind maybe I am meeting the wrong people I yet have not met an agency partner who is able to give you the kind of clarity in terms of this is what you are investing, this is what this plan is doing and I am willing to stick my neck out and saying this is the kind of response you are going to get and I think that's a bit sad because I think the whole theory of digital fundamentally was that you knew what you were getting, it was not going to be spray and pray it was going to be the right kind of customer, the right kind of mindset and you know your conversions etc would be a lot more accurate in measurement and today the expectation because of the data driven marketing environment is really that your CEOs and board expects that level of investment and accuracy in terms of reporting what you are getting and I am sorry I am still saying that we still don't have that level of responsibility and clarity not doing a marketing pick but you know when you look at digital end performance the challenge is how are you also tracking the or how are you also doing the measurement while a lot of platforms could be end of the funnel this is also one traditional challenge that you know when brands look at conversion they look at elastic model whereas you would be running your campaigns on about five different platforms and there could be an assisted conversion that is leading to your direct or your organic where brand should ideally do is understand where are we spending what is the attribution which is coming on each of them and look at a like we typically try and explain the concept of e-business ROAS instead of a platform level ROAS while the platform level ROAS can go up and down traditionally what you have to look at is how is basically we have a planning principle of say about a 60, 30, 20 and 10 where 60 would be performance about 20 would be always on kind of a it could be brand it could be performance or it could be higher so we campaigns then there is a 10% which is pure pure campaigns that are experimental so the last 10% is absolutely something new which actually gives probably an opportunity for the brand and the agency to try out at least an experimental platform and see what is the impact of that All in all what I'm coming to is measurement and attribution has to be looked at that is when you will be able to make sense of the whole marketing spend that you are doing again not an fetch but happy to look at it I mean there is no simple answer to that exactly what Shivu said right and I've personally worked with brands of all scales from startups from e-commerce to the Unilevers and PNGs of the world the debate is constant Abram right and the fact that I started my journey 20 years ago I've seen the sort of the nascent digital era as well and I've been fortunate to work with a lot of big brands in the traditional space as well what brands used to do by default is pay a lot of attention to product pricing placement and looked at media purely from a media lens at one point of time right now when digital came we said oh yeah all touch points available everything is measurable everything is cheaper that's where we started killing it sort of stay with me for a bit that's where we started killing it because we never talked about measurement at all right we don't have the nielsen's of the world tracking sales for example that's part of what I'm referring to it has to develop a way to credibly measure value for money invested and put a credible bet and as a provider service provider be willing to put your money away more you know 50 here, 20 here, 30 here and I think you'll get this that's the way the traditional media planning was I'm sorry meaning I'm outnumbered here I recognize that I'm saying it therefore with some level of responsibility like I said it's good to have this back and forth I think it's important there's a second part to it right which is the moment we started shifting to a digital ecosystem the responsibility on the brand side also multiplied which is my website functioning correctly do I have the entire analytics in place to ensure that I'm able to optimize the entire user journey and therefore to Shibu's point am I able to actually measure attribution accurately now all of that is an added investment which used to happen like I said by default saying how is my retail placement going to be how am I going to do all of that that used to be a task that the brands took upon themselves now it's just about largely I'm not brushing the entire industry with one brush stroke but it's largely about oh I've got a nice functional website and that's good enough why aren't you able to generate leads for me but there are a lot of cases like that but I think there's a lot of time and resource investment that's required to ensure that that measurement is effective that's one part of it the second is yes I completely agree with you that there are the largest digital platforms today till today have not taken steps to make data and measurement available transparently and that's a common challenge that agencies and clients both face I think the problem is there's still effort to sell a plan rather than sell the result I'm saying finally what is the marketer looking for the marketer is saying hey listen I've got X resource and I want Y result finally you want a partner who is saying hey listen I'll help you achieve Y result and I'll tell you the way to do it and I'm willing to give you a certain amount of confidence by sticking my neck out with you because there's no question the CMO's neck is on the block and because that's what the CEO of MD is going to do but you still don't have that level of resonance or confidence or accuracy or measurement for that kind of decision making and I think that's really where a partnership opportunity lies in the ability to be able to you know present the data in a convincing way fix the attribution because typically what happens is any agency or partner that comes in will say everything that the previous partner did was wrong the first three months are going to be about fixing that right but that's you know that's one quarter of results you can't afford that No fairly, Satish please I think the challenge is definitely there I mean I think the challenge is for real but I think it's also a function of how open the market is to investing in certain experiments to try out those experiments and then say that looks like this thing is working before I scale it up sometimes we see that I mean there is definitely a segment of marketers that are much more open much more experimental to give it a test first and then say that yeah looks like this is working and also investing in the measurement and modeling around it and so we see that the methodologies exist whether it's about measuring incrementality as opposed to last touch attribution which I think is the bane of the industry last touch has really killed you know for a long period of time the real impact that's coming through and so marketers who are much more open are looking at alternative methodologies around incrementality match market testing looking at a more holistic way of attribution and sometimes just testing it out in a few test markets first and then we have seen such marketers then seeing the benefits of it and actually becoming the ones who are endorsing the investments in digital even if it was not messily entirely measurable in the traditional context of last touch I think that's very fair I think two three points coming out from the discussion very clearly obviously there's no single universal tracking platform that can work across the board I think a lot of people are working on it still preliminary results some small test trial but yeah I don't think I think we are very far away from that dream stage across web desktop app everything might be going further away from it because of the post IDFA work yeah exactly exactly Google and Facebook have their own thoughts to it so really I don't see it happening in the immediate future and second is that on the digital maturity point is that yes people are getting mature in terms of they understand it in digital they want to spend on digital and coming to your point we make that investment in analytics if that's not supported that investment in tracking that investment in optimization if that's not supported definitely it will be a challenge but it runs to your point I think fairly put I mean and obviously bearing part of the responsibility as part of the group that definitely need to stick our necks more out so definitely we're there I think it's almost there and we go on a lot of results we go on a lot of things but yeah definitely I think more needs to be done if folks are still not fully convinced really understand that so just moving on from here so definitely this traditional on which investment is going take Thomas Cook's example 70-30 you're still doing offline you're still doing online but how are you convincing the advertisers or how are you as an advertiser convinced that I am able to follow the user offline to online or online to offline how are you bridging that journey that all my spends or all my planning or all my bets that I'm going to place are actually in correlation and it's not like two independent plans working together actually the last few years we've actually taken the journey from some digital to digital first to only digital so today most of our large campaigns are only digital they're being planned digital from inception so and that's a good thing and like I said I just wish there was a lot more clarity in terms of how to plan those campaigns because today a lot of it's still being taken on the basis of some data and some gut it's not that marketers aren't using their guts we've been doing it for years and stuff like that but you sort of expect and the boardroom expects as well that when you present a marketing plan today you're saying digital plan is going to have that level of accuracy so that's one point I won't belabor it because I made that point I think the other parts also today are seeing a growing and I was just on a panel a few days ago on connected TV and could that be the next big thing I think theoretically it could be especially for a category like ours because co-viewing is critical for the purchase of our category family viewing definitely behaviorally increases the opportunity of sale of course large screen you know good audio etc helps sell the travel experience as well but unfortunately the result in terms of response we still don't have that bridge of how do you get a response rate from connected TV so I think in every digital subset of digital media I think there is an opportunity to sort of straddle the one weakness that aspect has and I'm just using connected TV as an example great advantages big screen, big audio co-viewing etc and that ownership is growing and from a high value category like ours that's the only audience I'm interested in but you know there's still a technology slash content cap of capturing response and getting being able to measure it so I think what would be useful for this audience is to really think about each of these aspects of digital media and marketing and what's that one weakness that is a marketer you know people like us are facing that you can address because if you can come to me the solution like that I'd be with you right I'd invest with you and that's one sort of need so I see it in three on three tracks but before that so there is an online jewellery brand that sells 90% offline and online is primarily like a showroom and 10% sales happen through online but they have been always on player investing in the entire full funnel paradigm and measuring and seeing those results and we see it in three you know there are three things that I want to add here number one for brands that are offline as well so long as there is certain online touch point that they have one way is to look at and do the audience analysis audience intelligence without necessarily having to buy media that's one of the powers that technology offers today where you can do audience discovery understand who your audiences really are so long as you have some digital touch points of that audience it could even be their offline data phone number, email IDs as well or it could be the digital touch points that you may have that's the audience discovery bit and that then influence the media planning that you would be doing or media buying that you would be doing the second part is when one is actually running media investments and running campaigns looking at those at a very granular cohort level to understand which cohorts are really responding how to which campaign and at what stage of the funnel that today is achievable online by not looking at that one media plan in monolith but breaking it down into hundreds and thousands of possibilities number three is the measurement part which is which the way we see it is at like four different sections in terms of the brand lift that you see in terms of how that translated into the search lift for the brand both in relative and absolute terms how it translated to the traffic that came to the website or audio digital touch points you had and measuring the quality of that and finally looking at how that translated into the overall conversion lift even if your entire conversion was offline irrespective of that so I would say that these three prongs have become the cornerstone of how we are seeing market is adopting on digital just like to add a few points rather than starting a parallel track being a part of the network company now we I definitely see a change of congratulations now we are also seeing that like how they started right of how the audience planning happens now the audience planning is not thought from a digital or from a traditional media it is looked up as audience as a whole and their patterns their behaviors well it could be on digital or it could be on mainline as well that is how I think brand should approach it right now now since we are an integrated agency we look at that holistically now this is the audience, this is the persona this is what they would be doing on a TV this is what they would be doing on a digital this is what they would be doing probably on a connected TV that's how the audience discovery happens and again when you come to the planning there are brands which are like digital first there are brands which are 70, 30, 60, 40 and then there are brands which are also 90, 10 how do you measure each of them we are working on a brand something similar like what you just mentioned where the sales primarily happens offline because there is always a touch and feel to it there the measurement is completely different we actually look at a footfall there there are platforms where it actually helps you measure online to offline and there are integrated ways to also do it right you put on a coupon code, you do a QR code you just track that audience and it's all about building that measurability of how are you able to connect all the channels together that's why you look at the question that is how I would be also looking at how are probably traditional brands are also looking at digital and how digital plus integrated or probably digital plus traditional outcomes can be measured I completely echo that Shabu in fact CX or customer experience is the core of our framework as well and online to offline to online or offline to online to offline are happening all the time at a very fundamental level I think the discoverability of the brand has to be ensured before you start spending money on media and start expecting results like the point that I made earlier as well I mean I've got a store front but am I discoverable in the right way across platforms as well am I out there with the right message am I when I'm communicating a certain ad on TV are all of my other touch points coherent or am I incoherent because the moment that happens whether it is somebody watching an ad on television and they happen to go on to your website and they can't connect with what they saw there and what they see on the website and they walk into the store and they have they have a completely different experience every experience is broken I mean there are measurement solutions that are everywhere but I think the most challenge is that they're all distinct data sets they're not a common data set which tells you that the same person TV is the same person who's responding on digital and so on and so forth there are a lot of indirect correlations happening but in the absence of nothing there is something but all of those measures and solutions are in place not going to make a pitch here but there is a product coming up very soon which is very different from audio printer, fingerprinting, watermarking etc which will also solve that TV to digital sort of a behavior a globally patented product which would all be hearing about that very soon but until that happens let's at least ensure that that small percentage of media investment that needs to go behind measurement we are all able to do that and to Satish's point earlier conduct small experiments it has never been done for your brand conduct small experiments, take out 5%, 10% try it out for a month 2 months, sorry not a month 2 months, you don't get anything in a month try it out for 2 months establish some data and then start scaling it up Fair point, fair point I think we are starting our last 5 minutes of discussion and I am pretty sure the audience is also very keen in understanding some journeys that you personally guided and you have been part of that journey, I mean your company was in business before there was marketing forget digital marketing I really want to understand from your experiences some brand stories where we have guided the traditional what were the issues, some roadblocks how did the brands take it what was their take when they started versus what is their take right now the best case study I can talk about from the category in the brand that I represent is dealing with a 2.5 year period called the pandemic travel was down to zero category itself forget brand and you obviously had to keep the brand present, people engaged obviously we had taken money for people to travel when the lockdown happened so we had to use marketing in a way to build confidence because this was on the heels of one of our competitors called Cox and Kings going under our erstwhile parent Thomas Koch which we had a brand name in the UK going bankrupt and so on so on the heels of that the pandemic happened so we had to reassure those customers that they were going bankrupt and the money was safe and keeping them engaged keeping our partners engaged our vendors engaged everybody engaged a very very different kind of experience from marketer like me because typically it's about assuming some level of category demand and building brand demand this was the first time when you had zero category demand forget brand demand so I think digital was really crucial in terms of keeping not just employees engaged customers confidence up and being able to bounce back the way we have with the best profits we've had in a decade coming out of the pandemic within a year of the pandemic so I think meaning I'm a believer looking forward to doing a lot more I'll tell you in the case of one of the clients that we work with we work with Bislari as a brand and I remember when we started speaking to them in Covid they had just developed a website and their idea was to move the additionally water buying journey into online so you would ideally call a retailer and you would ask for a Bislari they wanted to change that pattern they wanted to build the subscription model and we have actually seen and we have lived the journey with them while we spoke about media we spoke about audiences something that we really missed out was also the customer engagement it is not only about acquiring and building your first conversion it is also about how do you influence the repeat conversions how do you influence people who have come experience the product they have probably done an atto card but they have not converted so what we also did for them was right from changing or adding inputs to the UX in terms of where the customer is coming what are the hot spots on the website, where are they clicking where are they not clicking, how to do the product placement to actually actively tracking the entire journey running modeling campaigns on paid on acquisition helping them in the user retention there was also we went a little extra mile to also help them optimize the ERP in terms of when there are say probably three trucks which are going out how do you optimize to make sure that they are delivering best what are the best routes that they are taking so when you look at a client and look at it from a complete 360 degree while you could be solving some of the problems which is not under your scope eventually what it will help you in is to probably help you better in terms of media spends get better add your scope additionally we have seen that transformation happening for them right from where they were about three years back to where they are right now the entire company believes that digital is going to is driving better results every single year and so the story that I would want to end up with is media audiences media great but also look at the second segment consumer from a retention perspective find out channels which will actually convert when you are there is no point in just bombarding them with messages right a lot of actually brands do that there are three point notification that is being sent every time they don't track how many people are actually opening the notification which platforms and how do we adapt to that those are the things that marketers should also change so this is a case study about Holodok which is Indonesia's largest health tech company today but sometime in 2021 around May June that when we were asked to work with them prior to that they had built like a market leadership over a year's time frame but just around June 21 they were losing that leadership to the number two player which was a distant number two but that was now closing in and there was of course the benefit of timing where the market years data science team had figured out that an unfortunate Covid Delta wave was going to hit Indonesia 25 days later so of course an unfortunate but great timing from a marketing standpoint and at that point in fact Holodok was running a TV campaign and that was a not driving lift either because as a brand it's still it has its own niche audience right it's a health tech app at the end of the day and you're trying to alter people's behavior to order medicines online and also pharma consultation and stuff like that and so TV was paused it came to digital it was planned at an extremely granular cohort level to really understand which cohorts are the ones that are likely to change their behavior or that are responding better and so it's not like planned in advance it's like everything being dynamic and when the Covid wave did hit Indonesia over those eight weeks they had a hockey curve growth massive growth in the new customer activations, transactions became the number one app on the app store or Facebook, WhatsApp and just about anything else and for the Covid alone even the other competition would have got benefited which was not the case and the best part was the sustainance the campaign then continued even later had a fractional spend and what was earlier being done when the third Covid wave hit Indonesia this brand had a natural peak coming in while the competition was nowhere and post Covid all these three waves the brand has established a steady new baseline completely that's far higher than wherever the competition exists in fact the competition is almost like decimated so this is a very interesting case study of digital planned it was executed at a very granular level of course a great timing but somewhere really beating TV for a brand like RADOT I'll actually talk about two categories one from my past experience which is FMCG brands that are amorphous impulse driven so on and so forth where the whole investment on digital is under question mark perpetually so till date I'm grateful to the marketing leaders who sat in those organizations and had the vision that if my audience is out there that's where I need to be and I will start investing in that it started with a simple very simple objective of if I have my own first party data can I drive media more efficiently it literally started with something that simple and yes multi-touch attribution analytics modeling all of that was done throughout the consistent efforts for about almost a year to the extent that owning the first party data not only led to 30 to 40% efficiency in media but multiple times growth in their engagement levels the overall correlation to when brand communicated online to when sales uplifted at a retail all of those were established and some of those case studies are available because they won awards in a lot of places talking about my current agency and the work we're doing with a brand called a water purifier brand called AO Smith now again we've woven the digital touch points across now this is also a category which is heavily trade dependent so there is an entire intervention that happens with trade every time a new product is put out there they also have they're also on the journey of that entire full end to end integration between retail and e-commerce so they have the challenge of different SKUs being available in retail and different SKUs being available online so trade has to be educated differently for responding to both because people who are exposed to the brand online will look for something else people who walk in the store will see something else so all of those aspects of the entire customer experience have been woven into it all those data points collated analyzed fed back into the system fed into media to start optimizing for every aspect of the campaign whether it's something we're driving for e-commerce something we're driving towards retail in fact on e-commerce AO Smith despite being a challenge of brand one of the leading e-commerce platforms has called it as the best performing brand because of the work we've been able to do with all these data points bringing customers from outside counter to what e-commerce platforms ask you to do bringing customers from outside the platform to drive conversions on the platform that's pretty amazing and thanks for sharing those insights and those examples I think that was really enriching for me personally also so guys yeah in the interest of time we don't want to delay everyone's lunch so we'll be wrapping up pretty soon but just in concluding thoughts I think the evolution from traditional to digital has been just amazing I've been personally in the industry for the last 10 years what I used to do 10 years ago 7 years ago 5 years ago 3 years ago and today it's very different I mean if Charles Darwin was alive he would have been proud of us how crazily that we have evolved I mean that's what I would like to say and yeah thanks a lot for the panel thanks a lot for the audience being very patient thank you thank you


Proudly, we hail. Hello from Hollywood, this is C.P. McGregor speaking, and welcoming you to another broadcast of Proudly, We Hail, a program of your war department. Through the courtesy of the Hollywood Coordinating Committee, we present Jack Carson as the star of our show titled Blue Print for Dreaming, written by Joe Scalpone with music by Eddie Skravanik. When Tommy Smith, that's Thomas Smith, the third was expelled from his fourth college, Papa Smith decided to give Tommy a last chance, working for him. Called to his father's office in the Smith building downtown, Tommy listens respectfully as Papa Smith talks it over. And the trouble is, you've got the brains, but you won't use them. You're lazy, that's all.  And don't look so hurt. Well, gee, Dad, I can learn more about architecture right here, can I? I doubt it.  Yes, sir? You'll use the office right next to me. Oh, that's fine. And you'll work 10 hours a day. Ah, oh, fine. As my office boy. Oh. Until you prove you're an architect. Now run along, I'm busy. Yes, sir, and I'll start right in. Tomorrow. You will start! Oh, excuse me. Certainly. I mean, excuse me. Certainly. Pardon me, miss. Yes? Could you tell me if this is the Smith building? Oh, yes, this is the. Are you kidding? No, no, not at all. Well, it is. You see, I'm just out looking for work. Very hard man in that office, Mr. Smith. I see. Just one more question. Yes? Is there a cafeteria in this building? There is, and I'm trying to get there before it closes. Mind if I tag along? Suit yourself, but I always eat alone. Well, I just thought some coffee and donuts would brace me up. That's pretty discouraging, this job, honey. Didn't you get the job? No, no, I didn't, but I'll get along. I can still treat you to coffee and donuts. Oh, no, thanks. Really? With jelly in it. All right, but it'll be Dutch treat. Gee, thanks.  Don't drop the tray. Yes, sir. Will that be all? There. Now, mind if I dug? Oh, I insist, Mr. Jones. Jones, but you can call me Tommy. Well, I'm Margaret. Margaret? Quackenberry. Peggy Quackenberry? That's a beautiful name. So easy to remember. Not confusing, like Jones. Yes, yes, Jones is so common. Not as common as Smith. Oh, no, no, not as common as Smith. Tell me, Mr. Jones, what do you do? Architects, the best. You work here in this building? No, no, just visiting a friend. Male or female? Mr.  Samples? Oh, no, no, not me. Oh, how unusual. No, no, what I want to demonstrate anything, I just borrow a pencil and knock off a quick sketch. Well, here's a pencil. Let's say you knock off a quick sketch. OK. Now, let's see, I'll do a house specially for you. Lots of sunlight and fresh air. A Western-style ranch house made modern. I do my own landscaping, of course. That's a cactus bush by the doorway. Well, shouldn't my dream house have a swimming pool? Oh, I forgot. There you are. Say, that's good. I like my house. You know something about architecture? Oh, well, yes, yes. You see, my fiance's an architect. Oh, but you're not wearing a ring. Oh, well, not just yet.  Oh, sure, sure, but without a ring, you're open for dates. Eight o'clock at the drug store at Main and Market Street tonight. Oh, please, I couldn't. But you like my work. You'd like to see some more. Well, I would like to see the plans on this house. There you are. You do have the complete set of plans, don't you? The complete plan? Oh, oh, sure, sure, naturally. You know, so many architects have wonderful ideas, but they never work them out. They're just lazy. Ain't it the truth? All right, it's a date. Now I've got to rush. Don't forget, front of the drug store date. Just to see the plans. Just to see the plans. No plans, no date. No plans, no date. Bye, Peggy. Hmm, the complete set of blueprints. Now, where am I going to get a ka... Oh, it's a cinch. Hi, Dad. Oh, are you back again? Say, Dad, mind if I borrow a set of plans from the file here? What for? Well, I'd like to see some homes done in the modern style. Something different. So would I, but you won't find it here. Not with the crew of hams I'm paying as architects. Oh? Well, have you got a modern farmhouse at least? Haven't built one in years. Well, have you got the plans on a big barn? No, no, no, no, no, don't bother me. I'm busy. OK, I... Oh, I know. I'll have the drafting department whip up some ideas for me. Don't bother the drafting department. They're in trouble enough. Well, gee, Dad, I... The plans for the Smith Model Home of the Year are due to be published tomorrow.  Gosh, I... Say, Dad, Dad, how long do you think it would take me to draw plans for a house? You? Forever. Hmm, but I've only got till 8 o'clock. What's in this cabinet, Dad? Nothing, just plans for the new city mausoleum. Mausoleum, huh? Hmm. Well, I guess I'll just run along. What's that you took? Oh, just some papers. If anyone calls me, Dad, I'll be in my office. Working. We pause briefly from our story, Blueprint for Dreaming, starring Jack Carson, to bring you an important message from your war department. Do you know what a willowire is? The man in the US Army Task Force of that name do. A willowire is a freakish Arctic storm characterized by snow, sleet, or rain, and high velocity winds. The Army Ground Forces Experimental Unit, stationed at ADAC, Alaska, is making studies of food, clothing, and equipment under conditions of severe cold. This is but one of many phases of the new regular Army program of scientific study and development. Army technicians are carrying on experiments in supersonic speed, cosmic rays, medicine, radio-controlled aircraft, and others. Skill technicians are required for this work. Capable replacements at the rate of 40,000 a month are needed to carry on the work of the new regular Army. Here is a chance for a high-paying, personally satisfying career and the opportunity to retire after only 20 years. For further information about the many jobs open to young men of ability, go to your nearest Army recruiting station today. They'll be glad to talk it over with you. Act two of Blueprint for Dreaming, starring Jack Carson as Tommy Smith. Tommy has to produce a set of plans for his house, or else his date with Peggy is off. Well, it looks as if Tommy has succeeded. Well, Peggy! Peggy! Hi, if I get it, I made it. Well, you brought the plans. Yeah, here you are. Didn't think I had them, did you? Well, frankly, I didn't. Why, I've had them for weeks. Don't roll them up too tight, they'll smudge. Why, the ink's still wet. Oh, no, no, it's not wet, it's just damp. You know, the weather. Ah-ha.  But just to look over the plans. Oh, sure. I know just the spot. It's nice and quiet, and we can have a table to work on. Come on. Oh, come on, Peggy, let's dance. Oh, Tom, these plans are terrific. I just love your house. Yes, and I just love to dance with you. The way your staircase curls down from the sun deck on the roof. The way your hair curls down around your ears. It inspired me. Tommy, you're a wonderful architect. Oh, here, give me those plans. Waiter. Yes, Mr. Smith? Put these with our coats, will you? Yes, sir. Thanks. Now, Peggy, come on, let's dance.  Girls never like lies. Gosh, who'd lie to a girl like you? If there's anything I hate, it's a man who deceives. You wouldn't ever deceive me, would you, Tommy? Me? Oh, whatever gave you that idea? I just wondered when that waiter called you Mr. Smith. He did? Uh-huh. Oh, well, you know how it is. Oh, I know how it is. Names like Smith and Jones are easy to mix up. Naturally. It happens every time. I see. Tom, will you excuse me a minute? I think my hair is falling apart. It is not. But I'd like to fix it. Wait for me at the table, will you? Mr. Smith? Yeah. Call me Jones, Jones. Yes, sir, a note for you. Thanks. Dear Mr. Jones Smith, let this be a lesson to you. You sign those drawings with your right name. Goodbye. Oh, my gosh, where'd she go? She had her coat, sir. She's gone. Oh, no, Peggy, Peggy! This is amazing. Wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it. Oh, good morning, Tommy boy. What's good about it? Tommy, my boy, this is wonderful. These plans, your modern ranch house. Hey, what did you get them? In the mail. Thought you'd surprise me, eh? Was there a message? What message? No, I guess not. Tommy, my boy, you're a Smith and a great architect after all. Well, thanks, then. And I'm using this house for the Smith model home of the year. And what do you think of that? Say, Dad, do you know of a girl named Quackenberry? Quackenberry? Quackenberry? No, what does she do? She ate lunch in the cafeteria yesterday. Oh, forget it. Listen, I'm sending in my headdraftsman for your final OK on these plans. And Tom? Yes, Dad? Stop mooning out that window. None of those pigeons there are named Quackenberry. Ah, man, what is it? About those plans, Mr. Smith. Leave it on my desk at Peggy. Hello, Tommy. Oh, gosh, I'm glad to see you. You're not mad anymore? Me? Oh, no. Are you? Me, man? Oh, come on, let's celebrate. I'll take you to lunch. But it's only 10 o'clock. What will your father say? Never mind. Well, he'll be sore at me. You mean you've got a job here? Uh-huh. I'm the headdraftsman. No, wait a minute. So about these plans. And I'll bet your name isn't Quackenberry either. No, more than yours is Joe. You knew who I was all the time. Sure. You deceived me. I deceived you? Huh. Excuse me, Miss, but is this the Smith building? Very funny. And I deceived you. Well, let me tell you, Tommy Smith, you need to think that. All right, all right, all right. Well, forget about the whole thing. Now, if you'll give me those plans, I'll pencil in a few changes. Well, hadn't you better get your father's approval first? That's my house, isn't it? Tom, what are you doing? Just putting a few toys in the garden. A playground? Like it. A playground for children? Certainly. You don't expect our kids to play on the streets, do you? This is C.P. McGregor speaking. I hope you've enjoyed our proudly we hailed story starring Jack Carson. Before leaving you, Don Forbes has an important message for all of us. Did you ever think the day would come when you could go to a store and ask for a can of bread? That day may not be too far off as a result of current army experiments. Already, canned bread is being issued and tested in the army under various conditions. In this way, food researchers determine the best way to maintain its flavor, texture, and stability over long periods of time. In other experiments, quartermaster technicians, working in conjunction with civilian scientists, are making studies of human appetite and nutritional values of different foods. This is but one part of the new regular army program of scientific research and development. An army contribution in medicine is the clinical recording camera that photographs in color at close range making possible a pictorial record of surgical operations. Air force technicians have produced planes that fly at transonic speeds. Army engineers are responsible for the introduction of the snooper scope, with which one can see in the dark with no visible light. These are but a few of the many army accomplishments. Highly trained men are required to carry on this work. 40,000 men are needed each month to replace those being lost through discharge and selective screening. Here is an opportunity for intelligent young American men to obtain a good job and a satisfying career. High pay, liberal dependency allowances, free food, clothing, and lodging, the chance to retire after only 20 and up to 30 years with a high monthly income, make the army a financially inviting profession. Ask at your local army recruiting station today about the work of the new regular army and the job opportunities for you. Thank you, Jank Carson, for a wonderful performance. Proudly we hail, we'll come to you again next week. Listen in.