Well, good morning, and can I welcome everyone to this the ninth meeting of the Public Audit Committe in 2023? We have apologies this morning from Graham Simpson. The first item on our agenda is for the committee to agree to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. Are we all agreed? I agree. We are agreed, thank you. Y ddechrau'r gwaith yma yn y gwaith yng nghymru yw'r Pwg 22, 22, 23, oeddod y Gwylfaenidog Cymru. I'm delighted to welcome this morning Wendy Sinclair Gibbon, who's the his majesty's chief inspector of prisons for Scotland. We've got some questions that we would like to put to you, Wendy, but before we get to those, I invite you to make a short opening statement. It will be short, I promise. We have four areas of key concern with the prison service. One is the performance of the prison transport provider. Two is the prison population, the overcrowding and remand figures. With that comes an estate that is not fit for purpose. Lastly, mental health and how that is handled in Scotland where the prisons frankly pick up a vast number of people who are mentally unwell. If I can just start with the performance of the prison transport. Over my tenure, there have been issues, and that's since 2018, with fluctuations in the performance of the prison transport provider with, in my opinion, unacceptable drops in performance leading to human rights breaches that I have repeatedly raised with the Scottish prison service and at times of the cabinet secretary for justice. At every time I've been given a comprehensive response, so if I start with March 2020, I raised our concerns formally and in particular the number of critical non-court appointments. I received a very impressive response with a phrase that says, you know, they can sure that work on improving systems and processes continues during the disruptive period. 2021, I recognise it was extremely challenging times for everybody during a global pandemic. In 2022, I wrote again with concerns that enduring issues of cancellations for non-court appearances and in particular critical healthcare appointments. People with stage four cancer having three critical care appointments cancelled and I was deeply concerned. The first quarter of 2022 saw a slight improvement but again it dropped again. In 2023, I raised the issue twice and I have never seen such poor performance by the end of 2023. It was truly shocking. You had appointments in some prisms that were more routinely cancelled than they were admit and you had real problems. In 2024, again I escalated my concerns and I'm aware that significant effort has been made by the justice partners to try and mitigate the issues and to try and address the issues and I'm aware that in 2024 it is again an improving picture. As with 2023, 2022, 2021, 2019, it has always been a drop followed by an improving picture. As a result, I think it's a significant challenge to human rights, a financial risk. I worry that it might be another slopping out case and it doesn't give me, as chief inspector, any confidence at all given the history of continued and sustained improvement and I was pleased to see that a considerable degree of that was echoed in the section 22 report. I don't know whether you want me to stop there or go on to remand and overcrowding. Well, we've got some questions on each of those areas that you've outlined, chief inspector. I think perhaps if you're agreeable, I'm going to turn to the deputy convener to get the ball rolling, but you'll obviously have an opportunity to give extensive answers to the questions that we've got, which hopefully will reflect things that you might have wanted to say in your very opening, but Jamie, over to you. Thank you, convener, and a good morning to you. I think other members will probably want to talk about the prisoner transport issue later in this session. I'd like to kick off this morning in looking at the bigger picture and that around the prison population, capacity within the prison estate and the state of the estate itself. My understanding is that the forecast for March 2024 is that the prison population would rise over 8,000. I presume that that has occurred. It's also my understanding that even running at maximum capacity and so-called extended operating capacity, we can accommodate no more than about eight and a half thousand prisoners across Scotland, across the entire estate, so we're getting to that crunch point. Can I ask you, given your overarching brief on this, what do you think the situation is at the moment and how perilous it is? I think the estate is already overcrowded. In 2019 and 2020, I reiterated a statement that your choice is stark. We either build more prison spaces or we reduce the population going in. Those are our only two choices. We have an ageing population. The demographic is very different from where it was 20 years ago. I was the governor of Kilmarnock in prison in 2006. It was unknown to have wheelchairs if they were rare. All you need to do is visit HMP Edinburgh and there's wheelchairs, crutches, all sorts of things. So there's an ageing population, very different demographic, great deal more serious and organised crime. I think we need to accept that that is the case and build an estate or manage an estate that is fit for purpose or reduce our population by looking at community alternatives. What is happening at the moment is that we are already overcrowded and I already accept that there are areas within the prison service that are underutilised by keeping children in custody. We use up 42 cells for two or three or four people. We have an area in Grampian that is empty because they can't get staff to go there and I know that they are addressing that. Those are minimal spaces. Barlinny is overcrowded, Barlinny is at risk of catastrophic failure. You've got Greenuck, which should be bulldozed. I just think that you are already overcrowded. What does that mean? It's easy to look at prisoners and say that they did the crime and they have to do the time. We all understand that aptitude. The reality is that their access to rehabilitative activities, their access to essential and crucial relationships of the staff that can turn around criminogenic behaviour, is reduced and therefore the risk to society and further victims is increased. For me, I think that it is something that this Parliament needs to address and address fast. That sounds quite like a grim situation, and I've heard you give evidence in previous years and some of those warnings around the ever-increasing numbers have born true, but I guess that the numbers themselves maybe don't paint the entire picture. Is it the case, or is it your understanding that it's simply the nature of the types of prisoners that has changed over the years? We've heard some anecdotal evidence, for example that, as you say, serious organised crime or very serious sexual offences or very serious violent behaviours have led to higher numbers. Of course, we have the issue of quite a substantial romance population, many of whom have been there way beyond statutory limits, for example, because we voted to get rid of those limits in many cases. What is your understanding of whether there is proportionality in the system? Is it your understanding that there are just simply too many people being put in prison for the wrong reasons, or is it simply that the nature of crime and the prosecution of crime is changing, therefore they have to be in prison and we just simply don't have enough spaces for them? I think that we have to give praise where praise is due. I think that our police forces are doing an excellent job of providing the evidence that they catch them. Our courts are doing an excellent job of convicting them. There is definitely an increase in serious offending. The legacy sex offenders are really increasing inevitably. Because of that, we've also got an increase in the length of sentence. If you look carefully at life sentences 20, 30 years ago and life sentences now, there's a distinct increase. I don't think that many of the public would disagree with that, so therefore we are holding more serious offences for longer periods of time, which means that we have an increased population. We also have, because of that, an ageing population. Prisons are primarily built for young fit men. I'll take the women's estate out of that because, frankly, the Scottish Prison Service and Scotland itself should be so proud of what they've done there. If you've got an ancient Victorian prison that is crumbling at the seams and whose plumbing frankly requires millions to keep going, the reality is that it's not designed for an elderly population. That's what we now have. We have a considerable proportion of people who are disabled, who are physically aged, who need adaptable cells, etc. It makes it very difficult to manage. That's where we are. I think that the Prison Service deserves praise for the fact that they do manage it. Violence has gone up. The numbers of deaths in custody have gone up. I've given you warning of that. We haven't had anything like the levels of insurrection that could have been predictable and haven't happened. I think that that is down to staff prisoner relationships. I think that it's important that we put on the record our thanks to those on the front line who deal with this and manage it. It sounds like a real balancing act in some of those institutions. Given that, for example, we already have made legislative changes over the last decade, we have a presumption against short sentences of incarceration anyway. By its very nature, those who get sent to prison have been convicted of quite serious crimes. How do you think that balance can be achieved of reducing the prison population, which is one suggestion, or is the answer simply to build more state? We haven't clearly been building or replacing those antiquated buildings in a timious fashion, and any attempts to do so have gone massively over budget and are hugely delayed, as we know. What is the answer to this? I don't know if we should be building more prisons or simply putting fewer people in jail, or both. Personally, I think it's both. When I looked last September at the number of people who were in prison for under 12 months, it was something like 750, those figures can be more accurately received from elsewhere. Certainly you could look at that now. I look at the number of very mentally ill people in prison. At least a third of all segregation units have very mentally ill people. We need to look at that. I also look at the very short term that people are in. If you look at the number of women who are on remand and then are released from court, the number of young people on remand under 25 and then released from court, it begs the question of why we continue to use remand that way. If you think about it, the statutory presumption against short-term sentences was approved precisely because it wasn't felt to have the effect that it was necessary. It didn't prevent reoffending and it was less effective. Having long-term remands arguably has the same outcome that you are more likely to develop escalating criminogenic behaviour than you are to deal with it. I also have an issue that Scotland has a cultural issue around remands where we don't think it's important to develop the criminogenic interventions for people on remand than it is for convicted. The prison service is funded to provide employment for convicted prisoners only. Many prisons make a point of making sure that remand is there. Health inequalities, you can be on remand for two years and yet you're not entitled to dental treatment, only emergency dental treatment. There are issues around remand where if they were short-term, genuinely short-term, then it would be some way justifiable, but with longer-term remands it certainly isn't. With up to 30 per cent of the population on remand, I would argue that it's actually breaching human rights. It's interesting. Obviously there's other piece of legislation going through other committees to look at the issue of remand. Certainly any interactions I've had with the judiciary is very much a feeling that remand is used as a last resort, that there's a presumption against releasing people when they're charged and brought to court. There are no alternatives for the judiciary. Can I ask at the situation about HMP Greenock, if you would permit me, convener? It's an area of localised interest to me, but it's also one that you mentioned in your opening statement. You stated that HMP Greenock should be bulldozed. It's currently obviously inhabited by a substantial number of prisoners and staff, both those on remand and held for longer term. We've got nowhere to put them if we did bulldoze it, so they're stuck there presumably and there are no plans for replacement. What should happen now? I think that's unfortunate. Greenock is one of the best prisons I've inspected. The staff-prisoner relationships are superb. The community relationships are superb. Health is good. You know, there's many, many aspects of Greenock prison that I think are really wonderful. I would love the space at Inverclyde, which costs the prison service somewhere in the region of £40,000 a year to maintain, was actually had been built and we could move all the good things about Greenock into there. But I recognise that that's a funding crisis and that we're unlikely to achieve that. But I would love to see another Greenock built that is fit for purpose because Greenock isn't. It costs a fortune to maintain, it has water ingress, it has real issues. Do you have any powers to direct it to be closed if you're unhappy with the conditions? Would you recommend so if that were the case? I think what I could recommend was a full health and safety check but I'm reluctant to do that because the prisoners and the staff really like being there and furthermore the prison service does its level best to maintain it and keep it going. We'll leave it as it is and hope that the funding will be found to build a replacement. We will have more questions on the estate. Can I just pick at one thing that I've previously taken evidence on and that is which is almost to me counterintuitive. If you're on remand, you're more likely to be locked up for longer. Correct, the conditions are worse if you're on remand and they are if you're convicted, yes. Yeah but what's the rationale behind that? I'm afraid you'd have to direct that question elsewhere. It's an operational matter you think. Or is it not a human rights matter? Well it's also braced in the prison rules so it's a legislative requirement so remand prisoners are not required to work and therefore there is a funding for making sure that convicted prisoners who are required to work provided they're not old ill etc is there so but it's not there for remand. Now many many prisons overcome that as much as they can but yeah okay well I'm going to move I'll come back in later but I'm going to move on and invite Colin Beattie to put some questions to you thank you. Thank you very much. I'd like to explore a little bit about the double cell occupancy and the consequences of that. Oh please do. In March 2023 31.5% of prisoners occupied double cells across the prisoner state in the 2020 report in session 5 the then Papples committee described the solution of addressing capacity issues by doubling up prisoners as a step backwards rather than a step forward. Now in response to predecessor committee's report on the then 2018-19 audit of the prison service the Scottish Government said that doubling up prisoners and cells was not its preferred approach. It further stated that the SPS was actively working to provide single cell accommodation to all prisoners. Do you know if there's been a significant increase in the use of double cells have they actually improved the situation there? By no means by no means there are a number of cells there are the CPT has a guidance on what size cells you should have there are numerous cells in Perth, Barlinnie, that are too small and they're too small for two people they're fine for one person but too small for two people and they are forced to use them by the prison population. The previous reports that we've looked at said 31.5% of prisoners were in double cells would you say that still about the same? I couldn't quote the statistics but that feels about right yes. I suppose I'm trying to figure out whether it's getting worse or whether it's getting whether it's being stabilised or what? It had to get worse as the prison population went up so there was an extra 100 cells under beds put into low moss for instance into single cell rooms we managed to get the double bunks taken out of Greenock but they may be forced to look at other areas that have relatively large single rooms by the prison population they cannot take them out of Perth, Barlinnie, low moss because they are so forced by the population. So it's simply the sheer volume of prisoners that's driving this is that an alternative? I think there always should be some double cells you know you do have people that benefit from being in a double cell but they should be rare and yes I think there are alternatives but unfortunately they're expensive so you can either convert three cells into two and put a bathroom in the middle or put you know a thing in the middle but it's expensive and the reality is at the moment the prison numbers are such that they are forced to use them and I suppose you know as a person I think the idea of sharing a cell with a total stranger who may not have the same hygiene standards as I do for 23 hours a day is just like that fills me with horror I don't even park on double yellow lines. I guess a spin-off on that is a concern about mental and physical health of prisoners and how that impacts on rehabilitation do you know of any assessments being made in regard to the impact of overcrowding and restricted regimes on the mental and physical health of prisoners? I can't point to any accurate research but I do know that there's a lot of that going on at the moment so I chair the national preventive mechanism and they're looking at two or three areas. One is the delays in people getting into inpatient care who are in hospital but have been designated for inpatient care under mental health. There is no question there has been a rise in mental health which I think has been evidence across the country and that's also true in prisons and they're also looking at the impact of segregation on mental health so there is some work going on but I haven't seen any major research at the moment recent research on the impact of overcrowding on mental health. I mean you previously mentioned the fact that a large number of prisoners did have mental health problems at the time that they entered the prison estate. Is there any way to determine the extent of which the sort of restricted regime and so on in the prison service the double bunking and so on is impacting on these people or? I think it would require a somatic review but I think that would be very worthwhile to do. I mean particular reference has been made in the past to Erlinnie as well as the wider prison estate of course but the difficulty is that in the words of Chief Inspector prisons a restricted regime is in place to keep prisoners safe and controlled and you yourself spoke just a few minutes ago about prisoners being in their cells 23 hours a day. How is that possible? I mean we look at prisons in in rather more brutal regimes where prisoners are 23 hours a day in their cells but we're doing the same. Yes I can't argue that I think it's fundamentally wrong and that doesn't mean that I think cells should just be open for a free-for-all. I do think it needs to be purposeful rehabilitative activity yes but I do think we need to do that. Just on a practical basis if prisoners are in their cells 23 hours a day is that mean their food served there they don't get out to mix it. During Covid that was certainly the case no they do get out for food that's why it's only 23 hours a day because they come out three times a day for food. I guess I'd assumed that one hour was for exercise or whatever. An hour for exercise so 22 hours a day yes. Okay thank you. I'm going to turn now to Willie Coffey who has got some questions on Barlenny in the estate. Willie. Thanks very much convener and good morning chief inspector some sobering comments so far one of which from the conversation we've had just now about prisoners in the estate and the question was asked what's the solution to this there's too many prisoners either reduce that population or build more prisons could ask what might be a very difficult question for the public to to hear the answer to are there people in prisons with mental health conditions that quite frankly shouldn't be there anymore should to be elsewhere yes he prepared to put a number on that I think you said there's about a third of the prison population of mental health wellbeing issues maybe did you say that? No I said that when we did the segregation review one third of the people in segregation that were clearly mentally unwell now not necessarily reaching the threshold that requires inpatient care it's a difficult question as well as for the public to even think about something like that but has anyone considered this in your knowledge that the people that are in prison they're older now you said yourself you're experiencing come on up there are no wheelchairs there in 2006 and now the prisons have gone this the population is getting older more infirm it's a difficult question isn't it for society in general should should we be thinking about that aspect of the prison population and thinking about one of these people are properly retained in prison? I think we do need to think that I mean I think we've always operated that prisons should be at the highest security level whereas in fact perhaps the time has come to rethink the estate you know do we need an old people's home with a secure wall around the outside they're not going to escape but we don't want people getting into them either you know we need to be secure and I think victims need to know that they're held securely right and I think we do need to rethink our penal estate and clearly the public need to be assured about the risk or no risk to society at large and that that would have to be part of any consideration of that quite clearly absolutely but by and large there are people that would you say in prison at the moment are no risk to society because they're deteriorating the age or material? There are some people who are not I would not consider at risk to society some of the very elderly disabled for instance but it doesn't alter that they will require care wherever they are whether they're in the community or whether they're in prison but it's questionable whether holding them in very expensive very secure buildings is actually the right proportion to hold them right place to hold them that's a difficult one but against that I firmly believe that having greater community interventions that deal with poverty deprivation and tackle crime at its very earliest level giving more options to sheriffs more options to the police is in fact the way forward to reduce the prison population but it's not a short term solution. I thank you for answering that I hadn't intended to ask that but I think we're learning that direction from the conversation earlier and it's quite important to could we turn to Berlin for a moment the 2018-19 audit identified Berlin the end is presenting the biggest risk of failure in the prison system and the report we have today Wendy talks about search capacity and so on could you just briefly for the benefit of the committee members and perhaps the public what do we mean by search capacity and why is Berlin in the frame when we're talking about search capacity? Sure sure the search capacity means it's the prison that can expand the most readily to cope with any sudden surge in prison population so Barlinnie is A the biggest B it's in the central belt and therefore readily available from the majority of the courts and therefore it is obviously the one that's designated a search capacity it also has a considerable degree of double bunking and can it's got other you know it's got the big wings so you can separate out the different cohorts of prisons so understandably Barlinnie has been chosen for search capacity in reality when the prison numbers are this high then you also have in Scotland the two private prisons who have the capacity to take more prisoners and I said in essence oh sorry two private prisons one is actually coming back to the public sector this weekend yep I know it well very familiar with it um so there's really no option really for if we do have a situation like that it's got to be Barlinnie really for the to take the extra demand if that were to happen because of its size and its design presumably it's got the space but it's in the poorest perhaps condition of all I think Greenock's in a poorer condition or similar condition put it that way okay the problem is the size of Barlinnie you know where you to lose Barlinnie there would be nowhere else to put those prisoners that's the issue if you were to lose Greenock you could actually overcrowd some of the other prisons and you'd manage because it's such a small number in Greenock I'd be sorry to lose Greenock I think it's a good prison but you mentioned that regime there was was really well thought of amongst the staff and the prisoners is that something that we try to share amongst the rest of the prisons the regime there is they do I mean the small prisons you know Greenock, Dumfries in Venice they all have that almost familial feel to them because you know they're very small they get to know all the prisoners really well so it's rather nice now get that impression as well convener when a visit come on it's 500 or so prisoners there but I get the sense from working closely with the director and staff that there is a good regime in there well managed good well run prison and I have to say Barlinnie is too you know the government's response to us in 2020 to the committee in 2020 said that the prison service has a robust contingency plans in place to deal with a loss of critical infrastructure as a result of an incident have you get any views of whether that that robust contingency plan is is still in place in fit for purpose I think if you look at the cost of maintaining these old buildings and the cost of staffing these old buildings there comes a stage where actually you need to invest to save it's just a very long term saving so yeah I think they are doing their best they really are the estates team do their best to maintain and keep these old buildings going the governor's do their best to make sure that the place is decent humane that they care you know it's got compassion but it's also I mean I look at Barlinnie with the recovery cafe where they're dealing with substance issues they've got a daycare centre for their elderly population you know they've got the community hub they've got the well-being hub they're really being as innovative as they can trying to do more with less which you know I do think they deserve praise for that okay use yourself told us in 2019 I think it was probably to me I answered this question that you said it would take five and six years before Barlinnie would be replaced and he always still aren't there we're never hopeful and during that time the infrastructure would continue to be fragile and probably diminishing in five years on chief inspector what's your assessment of the current condition of Barlinnie's sake comparing it to five years ago is it significantly worse is it what's your impression of that it's more or less the same I mean you just need to visit if you haven't visited it's worth visiting likewise Greenock you know when you see big buckets full of water in Greenock you know there's a slight problem with the roofs I mean Barlinnie I'll never forget my first inspection there walking along to the chaplaincy with plaster dust landing on my head and walking around early evening and a little family of rats coming with me because it was pouring rain so the water table comes up so the rats come up now the governor keeps that place immaculately clean there is no waste lying around to encourage them but you know it's it's the the the units are narrow and tight you can't actually manage a kind of regime in within the prison the cells are little and narrow and high with a window I mean it's it's not exactly modern penology and for me I think what prisons role is to do their level best to reduce the risk when they leave and that's the primary consideration not having to what I would call warehouse people because they've got so many people in and so many people turning over do you mean the purpose of prisons when something like Barlinnie was built or nothing like purpose that you describe no no but presumably there's there's it must be really expensive to try to keep Barlinnie in some reasonable condition that it must be hugely expensive for us to continue very much so very much so and they can answer that the maintenance costs if we're you to look at the maintenance cost of Barlinnie and say one of the more modern prisons big prisons like Lomoss or Grampian the maintenance costs are dramatically different okay um Richard did we agree that you would do the demographic I could do that one next if you want to do that will that be helpful we touched on changing demographics demographics chief inspector and the prison population just could you just tell us a little bit more about the impacts that this is having you've said there are more elderly more health conditions and so on is this accelerating at a pace that's becoming difficult to manage would you say I think I would love to say it's difficult to manage but they do an amazing job of managing it against that the reality is the estate does not have the level of cells that you need so for instance a brand new prison hmp sterling which by the way is fantastic if you get the chance go and have a look um but it hasn't got a room big enough for a bariatric prisoner so she has a bariatric wheelchair which cannot get through the door so staff have to put a little wheelchair a little or wheelchair inside help her through the doorway you know so we're not thinking about how the population has changed even if we've got a brand new prison that hasn't thought through if we have significant mental health issues which I think we do then perhaps we should be thinking about when we build having jointly run units so Victoria Australia has a prison called Ravenhall one unit of which has they refer to as flexible walls which caters for very mentally unwell people and it's managed both by the forensic healthcare and the prison service and I think we should be looking at things like that and saying would that suit Scotland you know when we're building anyway do we need to build in future proofing do we need to build in aged care when a person gets sentenced to to to be imprisoned does the system look at that person's needs initially before they decide where they should go if they've got these particular health requirements and so on or do they try to get a person when they come in to prison they're a bit of that so would you say by and large though that their needs are being met where they have been sentenced to to carry out the sentence by and large yes yeah so um but all the the whole estate can't possibly offer all of that range of supports that you you describe so even with the best will to try to deliver that right across the estate is it would you say it's beyond us to to meet the needs of that aging population that are growing and changing through aging. They do their best with inadequate resources so there are insufficient rooms that are adaptable for people with mobility needs there are insufficient mental health support for clearly mental there is no alternative you've got the units and you've got the segregation unit but there isn't a third option and perhaps there needs to be and have we assessed any of that across the estate do you think looked at that specifically and said yes but certainly the new women's prison has looked at that yes so okay well thanks so much for your responses to those questions for me chief inspector thank you very much back to you convener thanks willy can i just ask one of the themes that's in the audit scotland report is the importance of collaborative working so a lot of these challenges which have been described by you this morning and which are amplified in the audit scotland report the risks that are faced by the prison system will only i think be solved is the view of the auditor general by better collaborative working between the scottish prison service justice partners the scottish government and so on i mean do you have a view about how you think that collaborative working relationship should be i agree with the auditor general absolutely i however have seen of late an improvement in that you know the the chaired by the scottish government the scottish criminal justice board so for instance if we just take the prisoner transport police courts etc came together to look at that you know the increase in the virtual custody courts the use of the police to manage the violent person process etc etc etc there was a distinct coming together let's solve this together and that was very reassuring and very welcomed yeah i think it is a problem that sort of interoperability isn't quite there okay and i mean it you've as you mentioned earlier spent time as the governor of Kilmarnock prison i mean from that perspective do you i mean do you have a view about how things could work better collaboratively between the prison service maybe the private sector then was and the central government departments i think i know when i first came here in 2018 i said at the end of my tenure i would be delighted to do a review of information flows amongst the justice partners so that when somebody tangles with the police do you have the knowledge of them from social work from health from things so that you can actually choose how you deal with it when they go to the crown prosecution service are they taking an informed decision how does the information flow happen you know if if you need to work with justice partners for instance if the courts need to know that the sheriffs have a wider choice of of alternative disposals how do we manage that you know are the courts alerting the prisons as to who's going to come and who's not going to come in enough time so that the court transport doesn't take 14 people to court that are then not required you know there's all that information flow and informed decision making that i felt was siloed and wasn't actually achieving that so yes i think there is room for improvement but certainly a welcome a welcome i have welcomed the obvious signs of that working together recently good and can i turn now to the vex subject of the scottish courts custody prisoner escorting services contract which actually goes beyond simply escorting people backwards and forwards to court doesn't it goes into health appointments and so on which again you've alluded to i mean my reference point in preparing for today was your annual report which came out in september 2023 where you covered some of your concerns about this then and you said that prison transport raised some serious issues or there have been serious issues and this remains a key concern it feels as though you've gone a bit further this morning chief inspector you've said it's true you've said it's truly shocking it is yes i'm sorry it is yes so we have a thematic lead in our team i have a very small team and she is doing a transport review at the moment from that precise reason and some of that is user voice some of that is case studies some of that is listening to the difficulties that the provider has that the scottish prison service has etc so we will be publishing that it's due its first draft end of april and we will publish that probably june no guarantees depends how long the editing process takes okay i mean i mean do you have a view about the model the model of outsourcing that function within the prison service i have a personal view but i also have a chief inspector's view and if i stick with the chief inspector's view which is might prefer the former rather than the latter but the former would be much more interesting but the chief inspector's view is that this is a contract that since its inception has not worked it hasn't provided the service to the courts and the non court appointments that you would expect to see so therefore there must be a flaw either in the commissioning of the contract or the contract itself or the management of the contract there just must be you know otherwise it would have been resolved and worked i also think that uh as parliament we have a manifesto that says trauma informed i think the prison service has in its strategic plan trauma informed and i would argue that things like funeral escorts hospital escorts would be more trauma informed if it was managed by the scottish prison service staff staff that the prisoner is new and may have a relationship with so i think there are options and alternatives i also looked at the performance of the transport providers in other jurisdictions and the same transport provider is doing very well in other jurisdictions but it's a very different contract so therefore perhaps that needs to happen and i think the contract is due to expire or reach its first stage in 2027 we now need to be looking at what sort of contract or what sort of delivery scotland needs i mean are you specifically talking about the situation in england where i think we took evidence to suggest that um certainly uh audit scotland's representative i think told us that it was a much tighter contract in that it really was just transporting people people backwards and forwards to court it wasn't about taking them to family funerals it wasn't about taking them to nhs appointments yes so will that be part that will be part of the consideration of your thematic review of prisoner transport um no my thematic review will be more tightly focused than that it'll be the impact of it in scotland we won't be looking at the contractual issues so one of the things that if we had more time i would look i also like to look at the hidden cost so for every hospital appointment that's cancelled what is the actual cost of that for every court case it doesn't happen all the lawyers guns knows what the costs are that the fact that you've got a contract that requires significant input financial input you know what is the cost of that and i think there are hidden costs in this this sccpes whatever it's called that have not been examined but i mean again we took evidence from uh the auditor general where and it's in the report it says that 62 percent of prisoners during court arrived on time meaning 30 38 percent did not correct um 65 percent of non-court transport was on time meaning 35 percent was not on time and this is the health appointments that you've spoken about in quite dramatic terms at the start of this morning's session i mean do you think we've also taken evidence about the the vacancy rate in geo Amy and again we've got into discussions about the the salary levels and whether the reason for the high vacancy rate is because of the remuneration package that people get i mean do you have a view on that well certainly the all these issues that i raised with the sps and i got a comprehensive response which i'm happy to share with the committee has shown an improved position so staffing levels are almost at the target operating model they have considerably better results this month than they have done it previously certainly 2023 was one of the worst i've seen my concern is that that has required considerable effort from the justice partners and further input of cash into it and i have absolutely no confidence given the history that it's sustainable you know their staffing position has been poor they are paid slightly less than you get paid if you get p and q and inevitably when the police recruit and the prison service recruit they have wonderful staff well used to handling difficult and challenging people coming into them so i'm not sure it's sustainable i think there needs to be a consideration of an alternative you need to examine the contract okay and and i mean just finally before i'm going to bring the deputy convener back in i think maybe got another couple of questions i mean do you think this is a failure of geo Amy because we're going to have geo Amy sitting where you're sitting in a few weeks time is it a failure of geo Amy is it a systematic failure is it a model that simply can't work whether it's run by geo Amy circle or however we do you have a do you have a view on that we have to be aware that circle and g4s was drew from the bidding because they felt it was a model that wouldn't work so okay that's a yes the market speaks perhaps i'm going to invite the deputy convener to wrap the session up thank you convener i just want to direct the conversation back to perhaps where we started around the situation moving forward you'll be aware that the head of the scottish prison service trees and methurst was on television recently and was quoted as saying enough is enough we cannot take any more in relevance to prisoners given that we are already over capacity i think that's widely acknowledged and if the trend continues and prisoners numbers rise the big question is what happens then and i guess my question is what do we do when we get to that situation when there simply is no more space presumably there are three things we can do one is we direct the judiciary not to send people to prison second is we release people who are currently in prison from prison early or suspect thirdly which is one they're actively considering is temporarily housing that additional influx of people in temporary accommodation given your lengthy and wide-ranging experience of prisons what would be the best option for policy makers i think it's a combination of all three it really is i think we need to look at the estate very carefully and see where we can expand i mean the two private prisons can expand it will mean doubling up people in cells but they can i think we need to recognise where they have closed units and open them we need to take children out of prison custody there's no argument in favour of keeping three or four children in 40 cells i can't see any argument we can manage that legally there's a way around that i think we also need to ask a judiciary if the presumption against sentencing under 12 months could be extended to a mandatory not sentencing under 12 months i think we need to work very closely with community justice scotland and cosla and look at whether we can open further rehabilitative residential units whether we can look at secure bail hostels are there any units around the place for instance the closed secure unit in Edinburgh that could be used perhaps for alternatives aged care you know there are opportunities and it needs considerable planning because i can't see that we're actually going to reduce the population in a hurry i just can't see that happening the backlog in the courts means that many of the people who are currently on demand will convert to being convicted so you know and certainly if you look at the high court the level of serious cases of fairly heinous crimes argue that they will be convicted and in prison for lengthy periods but i mean for me i think there are a number of tweaks around the edges i think you need to review and review and revise the home detention curfew we used to have 300 people out on that we've got approximately 50 or 60 i think you need to look at whether you can use gps monitoring and allow people to leave prison early but monitored you know so west in australia for instance their dangerous and serious sex offenders are all released on a gps monitoring tag so that they're tested in the community with some degree of comfort so i think there are options and alternatives that you can tweak but long term you're going to have to have a strategy to either build or reduce the population yeah it does seem we've been rather slow in scotland to to deal with the evolution i suppose of criminology and things like sobriety tagging and gps technology and so on but i mean could you understand though that there is perhaps an element of society including some of the victims organizations who often deal with legislators who feel some unease at some of those suggestions unease for example at emergency legislation that releases people from prison early they feel that justice hasn't been served if you like really unease about directing the judiciary and what the shooter should not do in terms of who can and cannot go to prison and how do you think legislators should balance that unease with victims and then the wider public who maybe fear for their safety and with the quite perilous situation within prisons themselves which is it virtually a tipping point at the moment it is a tipping point oh well i think it's a tipping point i absolutely think you need to get all those people round the table to agree away forward the victims for me are the primary concern you know how did they feel what would they feel on the other hand releasing somebody early that was going to be out in a month's time anyway i would want to know they have housing they have support they're being monitored that they're unlikely to go back into the same crime that led them to going to prison in the first place and as a victim i would want to know that i wouldn't like to think they're just going to be released onto the street so you know i think those that consultation that thinking together has to happen but i also think you need to look at scotland's estate and see how else you can expand it in the short term and what you can actually do to cope with if sheriff needs to send someone to prison they need to send someone to prison i don't doubt their judgment indeed i'm sure we can spend a whole session on whether the public service is a fit for purpose once people are released and another session on rehabilitation and what we're doing right or not doing right in scotland but my final point was quite a more aggrave one and that's around situation around deaths and custody in scotland across both prisons and other forms of custody it's estimated there are four deaths per week that's not solely related to prisons of course but there still is quite a large and worrying number of people dying in the prison estate across its different levels can i ask if that's something that's part of your watching brief do you have any views have you performed any analysis as to why those numbers are so high and made any recommendations to the prison service or to ministers as to how that can be reduced yes so we wrote the death in custody review and in there there were a significant number of recommendations one of which was the death in custody prevention where i felt it was really important that there was a group that looked at why deaths happened and obviously involved the families throughout the death in custody review the family voices were extraordinarily powerful and given the level of distress they felt i was stunned at their compassion and their understanding compassion for staff having to deal with it i was really stunned by that i think if you're a family member and you've got somebody who goes into prison you think they're going to be safe and when they're not safe and they die in prison it's huge and i also think it is one of the worst things that can happen that you die in the care of the state and we're not talking the 95 year old slowly dying of old age you know talking about people who take their own life or whatever but the concern from the families was that they had a lot of information they could have given that might have prevented this and that was not recognised or understood so that prevention group was one of the major tenets of well there were three things for me one one was i felt that the delays in the fatal accident inquiry that the review found that's not wasn't just me so the review was the Scottish human rights commission families outside an hmi ps and the key recommendation was that there should be an independent inquiry which would inform the fai because there were huge delays in the fai families felt that the fai was adversarial it didn't necessarily come to the truth vast numbers of the fai's do not come out with any recommendations they felt there should be recommendations and the time delays made it very difficult my feeling was that the other UK jurisdictions all have an independent inquiry and while they haven't reduced a number of deaths in custody filipa tom sacks report confirms that what they have done is given closure to families and so i felt that that was a system we could adopt in scotland that wouldn't interfere with or prejudice the police inquiries or prejudice an fai but would bring closure to families and would also allow for transparency because then you could look at if there was that they would then produce a report this independent body they would then have a report that would show you any systemic issues what recommendations have been recommended and what have been progressed and what has occurred that doesn't happen at the moment you know we have no idea i was pleased to see that the scotish prison service are now publishing not only the deaths in custody but also the number of self harms and attempted suicides because when you look at those numbers it's really quite impressive what the staff manage it really is but that was one recommendation one was that families when they go to an fai are largely unrepresented the scotish prison service and the nhs have expensive lawyers we felt there should be automatic legal aid for families we felt that there should be a death in custody prevention group that has family involvement that doesn't necessarily just look at people who take their own lives but also people who take drug overdose people whose health care might feel that they don't have access to health care in the same way as they would in the community you know one one woman her family member had died and when the nurses had arrived the cpr equipment didn't work and she wanted to know but but you know how often is it checked how's it who maintains it what happens to it and you know all of those questions were not answered in the fai but would have been in an independent inquiry or if we take the allen marshal case once there was no determination of criminal intent we could have done the inquiry all the changes the scotish prison service has done reviewing their use of force could have been in place by the time you got to the fai you know there are advantages to doing an independent inquiry in the middle so yes i'm quite passionate about death in custody sorry and i'm going on and on i don't mean to no i commend you on the work you've done there but clearly all of that work is going to be made more difficult with an increasing population and and antiquated estate and lack of resource and assistance yes yes when i say antiquated estate it it i really must mention the new women's estate i do think you know the scotish prison service and scotland is leading the world on that having just done the inspections in all three places it's fantastic it's such a therapeutic environment well done and i think we also have to mention that after allen marshal they've inch scotland is introducing pain free restraint now it's not rolled out in every prison but it's rolled out in the juvenile state and it's rolled out with women and it's now rolling out in one of the big adult prisons there's no other prison that i know of or no other jurisdiction that i know does that i know they do it with a juvenile estate in england and northern ireland but not the whole estate it's simply impressive okay thanks i mean you touched on the allen marshal case a couple of times there i mean one of the things that struck me about that and i don't know whether you've got any reflections on this is that some of the recommendations of the fatal accident inquiry into allen marshal's death were not implemented so the the fact that there are recommendations arising from an fai doesn't necessarily mean in all cases that they will be agreed to by the scottish prison service and that was the case then wasn't it yes and that remains the situation yes there are recommendations okay okay well look thank you um i really do want to place on record our thanks for your forthright evidence this morning chief inspector it's been very helpful for us in our consideration of the audit scotland report you mentioned correspondence you'd had about the geoamie contract and some maybe more up-to-date information and if you are able to share that with us i think that would be extremely helpful to us as well i can also send it electronically that's great well look thank you very much indeed for your time and for your evidence this morning i now want to suspend the meeting to allow for a change of witnesses thank you well could i welcome everyone back to the public audit committee we are moving on now to our third agenda item which is consideration of a briefing prepared by the auditor general on the national strategy for economic transformation and set so i'm delighted to welcome our four witnesses this morning on this briefing we are joined by the auditor general steven boil good morning auditor general and this morning the auditor general is joined by canelius chicwama who is an audit director at audit scotland kathryn young is with us as well who is a senior manager at audit scotland and curstee rid who is an audit manager at audit scotland we've got quite a number of questions to put on the briefing but before we turn to those questions auditor general could i invite you to give us a short opening statement many thanks convener good morning committee i'm bringing this briefing paper on the scotland governments arrangements for delivering its national strategy for economic transformation which it published in march 2022 the ambitions in this 10 year strategy are wide reaching touching upon many policy areas the scotland governments overall vision is to create a wellbeing economy where traditional economic growth is not the only measure of success delivering this will be a substantial challenge and will require all parts of government and others such as scotland's businesses to work closely together scotland's public finances are now more closely linked to how scotland's economy performs relative to the rest of the uk through the operation of the fiscal framework this makes it even more important for the scotland government to achieve the economic performance ambitions that it has set out in inset good governance arrangements are the key to ensuring clear performance oversight and accountability effective decision making and managing risks this is particularly so for the inset which spans different government directorates and public bodies by briefing finds that the scotland government has set up governance arrangements to encourage collective ownership accountability and oversight for progress this includes a delivery board comprised of relevant experts however the briefing also notes since two years since publication the Government has yet to establish its planned economic leadership group this group was intended to provide collective political leadership for the strategy across ministers and to provide a route for the delivery board to escalate major concerns the scotland government has not yet clearly set out how much money will be required to deliver the national strategy current fiscal challenges require an understanding of cost and affordability to inform the government spending decisions and is therefore crucial in terms of transparency scrutiny and accountability while good connections have been established across the scotland government to support the delivery of the strategy my briefing also highlights that it's not clear how directorates are working together to agree funding priorities this makes it difficult to judge if investments are in areas that will deliver the greatest impact in october 2022 the scotland government published delivery plans for implementing the strategy it reported in june of last year that 10 of the 79 delivery plan actions had been completed with a further 48 in progress while it's too early to assess the overall impact of the strategy my briefing recommends that the government develops its approach to evaluation to therefore better understand which activity is making the biggest difference in transforming scotland's economy lastly convener in january of this year the scotland government advised the economy and fair work committee of its intention to update the strategy and its delivery plans in response to recent policy and economic developments we'll of course monitor the scotland government's progress in this area and use this to inform any further audit activity convener we look forward to answering the committee's questions this morning thank you thank you very much indeed for that very helpful introductory statement one of the chapters in the briefing is headed reporting progress and measuring success so i want to begin by asking for a report on progress and whether success was measured in terms of the previous national economic strategy which was launched in 2015 in paragraph four of the briefing you mentioned that the objectives of that strategy the two principal ones were boosting competitiveness and tackling inequality yeah i'll maybe ask uh curstie just to come in and set out kind of what history has shown us before passing to curstie what i would say convener i think one of the things that we found in our report is that there is often an overlap between strategies and we've certainly found that in looking at the progress since publication of insets since 2022 that of the 70 plus indicators that i mentioned in my opening remarks wasn't always clear what was a new indicator what was in what was an existing measure and therefore i think perhaps uh of course they can update about the history perhaps looking to the next iteration that the cabinet secretary committed to the government to produce this year is there's that clear flow through from one iteration of a strategy to the next and that that's captured right from the outset measuring of progress transparency and then using that to inform which indicators and measures will deliver the biggest impact of course economic growth and other measures a pause for update thank you thank you convener um so as part of this piece of work we were looking at the arrangements and frameworks that have been set up to deliver against the national strategy for economic transformation we haven't done a comprehensive look back at what was in the previous strategy and how that flows through into this one but we have set out in part of our introduction to the briefing paper some of the challenges in the wider economic context and some of that comments on the kind of the longer term trends which are provided economic challenges within scotland which sets the context for this strategy and as the auditor general has mentioned we do talk about the fact that this strategy incorporates a number of actions and initiatives which pre-exist the national strategy for economic transformation but we also want to talk about the fact that it's not always easy to see how those actions all link up to achieving the wider measures of success and overarching ambitions of the national strategy for economic transformation in that case it's difficult to see that flow through so we have recommended that in doing the update of the strategy and the delivery plans which the auditor general mentioned that the scotland Government should set out to link to set out more clearly the linkages between the actions and the contribution they're expected to have to the measures of success and overarching ambitions and that would give a clearer picture of that flow from the actions to the measures of success thank you okay well I mean we will see whether the new vision is easier to translate into tangible measurable actions or not I mean one of the things that strikes me and this may not be an area for you to comment on especially but I would be interested if you if you do have a view is that so the again the previous strategy was formulated and launched in 2015 and in 2016 we had a referendum on European Union membership which voted overall the UK for us to leave and as a consequence the UK left the European Union in January 2020 I mean I'm just a bit surprised there's been no revision to the strategy in light of such a significant event so as you'll know convener is for I guess it is for government and parliament to determine its policy intent the progress around strategy development I think I'll probably rather than reflecting back and I don't have a particular view perhaps I think as you've suggested maybe not appropriate for me to express a view but the frequency with which policies are developed but in the now former cabinet secretary's correspondence to the economy and fair work committee it's citing the change in the economic environment that Scotland is currently experiencing as one of the drivers for which it intends to use as it reasserts its economic strategy later this year and I think I'll also expect to be informed by the programme for government pillars that were set out by the first minister in the middle of 2023 context changes I think what our work looked to do was that and we hope that it's helpful for the government as it revises its strategy that there are these effective pillars of good governance risk management evaluation frameworks given all of the challenges that we know of Scotland's fiscal position that Scotland is getting best value for the investment that it makes in its new strategy thank you and other people will will come on to some of those some of those areas in particular about the governance arrangements but before I hand over to the deputy convener could I just return to something which I think Kirsty you alluded to and that is the importance of transparency and clarity around some of the goals and action points and I have to say when I looked at your briefing and read exhibit 1 examples of national strategy for economic transformation actions and looked at the actions there that you listed which included create a national system of pre-scaler hubs that will stimulate the very earliest stages of high growth commercial and social entrepreneurship next one build strategic partnerships with other key entrepreneurial ecosystems in other countries and then thirdly design and implement programmes on practical actions businesses and leaders can take to boost productivity at scale I mean there's an awful lot of jargon in that for something which I presume is meant to be a public document which people can read and understand what the intent of the economic strategy is I think the point of all of these actions convener is that they need to be understood not just by the people that are writing them but also given the wide range of partners who will need to be playing their part to effectively implement them so you mentioned you wanted to explore the governance arrangements which are wide ranging and do includes representatives from across public sector third sector and very importantly Scotland's business community there's also an element of scrutiny and accountability for the indicators so I think there's an opportunity here and I guess I sound like I'm agreeing with you convener that you know in setting actions that not just in the way that they are described but as we've alluded to in discussion already that there's also clear about what precise steps are going to be taken how they'll be measured what the timescales are what the investment that is required to be associated with all of the indicators there's an opportunity in all of those fronts as the government thinks about the next iteration of the strategy okay thank you I'm going to invite to Jamie Greene deputy convener to put some questions to you Jamie thank you uh convener good morning panel um I'm going to start with uh the basics um it seems from your briefing that uh scotland has two issues one is sluggish GDP growth and the other is a productivity issue would those be correct assertions so the so deputy convener those those are recurring themes I think even you know the convener referenced the previous strategy so they were key elements of the previous strategy in terms of productivity and growth the 2022 end set brought in a wider component of a wellbeing economy but but I think especially as I mentioned in passing and mentioned up to remarks the context of Scotland's fiscal framework and the resultant revenues that come in for to support public spending in Scotland not just predicated on growth but more widely but Scotland's relative economic performance compared to the rest of the UK and just looking at some of the more recent forecasts coming on which are frequent from various uh sources the Scottish Fiscal Commission however's forecast are consistently showing for the next three years that Scotland's relative economic performance will be lower than other parts of the UK in terms of GDP growth so all the more importance therefore that the success of the strategy to deliver better returns for Scotland's delivery of public services but in short yes those those are consistent themes that those two pillars that you mentioned and what do you think that is what are the what are the red flags to you that we're looking at a couple of years ahead of projected lower performance relative to other parts of the UK or relative similar economies in a new reference for example that we are 16 third of 38 in the comparison of productivity so we're about midway in the pack but could really do better what is it that it's affecting that lower productivity what is it that's affecting that lower growth what analysis do you think needs to be undertaken as to how we could make some immediate improvements to that because obviously that will generate more money for public services no you're quite right actually i'll maybe i guess i wouldn't bring any more actually because this is part of his area of expertise but i suppose to manage expectations that we didn't set out to do that kind of analysis in today's briefing paper to explore why lower productivity than policy makers would want has been a stubborn feature you know of i guess not just the Scottish economy but other parts of the UK and other western economies too and that it remains part of the focus and again respecting the boundaries of what's appropriate for me to get into in terms of the merits of one policy or another i can see why that features to tackle lower productivity delivering you know better economic returns creating higher paid jobs and personal return for individuals and resultant tax take but i will pause deputy governor actually i think can you just me want to say a bit more about some of the background to productivity and other pillars thank you thank you deputy governor i think as the auditor general says i mean it's really difficult for us to be directive you know what analysis the Scottish government needs to do in in this area i think when you look at the strategy itself i think it not acknowledges these challenges and maybe the areas that they have identified are the areas that they believe would enable them to to tackle the challenge of productivity and and low growth so you can see the ambition to build an entrepreneurial people and culture which is about increasing the number of high growth businesses the focus on a skilled workforce looking at productive businesses and and regions and a fairer society in addition to that looking at new market opportunities so it looks like those are the things that the Scottish government has identified itself as things that would help tackle the challenges of you know slow growth and low productivity growth in Scotland's economy of course much of that comes from the top down and in the very first section of your report you immediately identify an issue and that's perhaps and i don't want to put words in your mouth but a lack of political leadership overseeing much of the strategy indeed you are specific in identifying that the economic leadership group has not yet been established that some two years after the strategy has been published are you surprised by that we're very clear in the report that um the economic leadership group was part of the government's own framework so it identified that this was a an essential component of the governance governance necessary to deliver the strategy so during our audit work um and i'll maybe bring you Catherine just to say a bit more about the engagement that we had with the government um that that wasn't set up feels like a gap it is a gap you know this was intended as being the mechanism for which escalation could come from the delivery board to politicians and ultimately you know what and many of the tenants of this strategy will be about choices and about prioritisation and escalation because clearly there will have to be prioritisation not just with the current strategy but mode out for the next iteration of the strategy so whether it's an economic leadership group or as we see in the report some other vehicle for which to provide a political oversight to have that escalation and prioritisation will need to be part of future arrangements but again i'm going to pause the deputy convener because i think Catherine might want to provide a bit more detail on that. Thanks auditor general um i suppose yes just to reiterate that itself was an action in the strategy to establish the economic leadership forum um and as the auditor general has mentioned the role really was to ensure that political accountability and drive and also to ensure the wider public sectors contribution to delivering the strategy itself um so obviously we've outlined on on exhibit two that kind of flow of information among the the various levels of governance um and there are positive aspects to these these different tiers and what each kind of role um each board has um i think the issue there is just in terms of that as the auditor general has mentioned um you know when decisions are made around accelerating or stopping a particular activity there's there's not that clarity of information how that information goes to ministers and how that's made on a decisions are made on a collective basis um so yes obviously we've made a recommendation there to either um you know establish the group or or an alternative mechanism so that there is that transparency of information and decision making and prioritisation thank you very much i'm sure there'll be opportunities for parliament to address those issues with with the government and the other members will probably delve into the specifics of some of those gaps but i guess i wanted to just close my section on a wider point and that's you talked at auditor general about much of this being down to prioritisation or choices and i presume those are policy led choices which are under the control of of ministers but do you feel that there's any intrinsic conflict between for example pure economic growth versus well-being economy or economic growth uh is it do you think it's difficult for governments to to balance those which may in in terms of strategy take them in very different directions in terms of policy can you listen again can i think we'll support my opening remarks on this we're absolutely clear we we have again not appropriate probably for us deputy convener to have a view about the merits of one type of economic strategy relative to another that is the government's policy to progress with a well-being economy is very clear you know and and they have set out the in their strategy the arrangements with which they intended to deliver that so we touched on just last element of the conversation about how governance would be set up spoken already about the need for clarity around actions indicators evaluation frameworks but perhaps a bit this maybe just pausing on for a moment it's about the the need for prioritisation because there's no single budget for the delivery of the well-being economy or for economic growth we're clearing the briefing i hope that in order to successfully deliver the national strategy for economic transformation there there will have to be that element of prioritisation and even if just to bring to the highlight to the committee exhibit three for example going to set out the programme measures of success that are interspersed with some of these will be clearly about a well-being economy which brought in aspects of scotland's environment and factors that have been in addition from the previous strategy but to deliver it effectively has to get all of the various pillars in terms of good governance indicators political leadership and then the evaluation framework so as I say we are neutral about the the merits or otherwise but to deliver any strategy effectively has to get all that these kind of the real foundation successfully in place but again i'm going to bring Carlyle so you can say more thank you auditor general i guess the challenge for Scottish government here is to look at their and set actions and look at how they work together identify where that complementarity exists to then align with what they have identified as the well-being economy or the framework behind the well-being economy i mean if i can give an example you know in our in the auditor general's report we highlight the slow growth and the productivity challenges particularly over the period 2008 to where we are now now that has been a period of very low real growth in in in pay and that would have impacted progress on tackling poverty so that is almost highlighting that you know there is that link between growth and well-being if we are looking at the role that pay plays in reducing poverty so there may be those opportunities for for complementarity the strategy identifies this new market opportunities some which are around delivering on the green priorities so again there may be opportunities there where the Scottish government is delivering on its green outcomes but at the same time seizing the economic opportunities presented by those green outcomes to grow the economy so there are scenarios where you know these things could become aligned but it requires a lot of you know planning on how you deliver these actions to to to capitalise on those potential synergies hopefully that addresses the the question it does thank you thank you i think willy cough has got a question in this area thanks willy convener yet it's just on the growth forecasts issues that we were discussing that moment ago auditor general phraser of allander this week or this morning even is projecting a improved growth forecast for scotland in the next three years in and around or slightly behind or slightly ahead depending who you read the rest of the uk figures and the uk's been in recession as we know when you look at the republic of island economy it's four times the projection is four times that of scotland now i never want to draw you into any political debate or comparisons and that's not appropriate to do that but what are the levers available to us in scotland that can influence that to our advantage to our better advantage would you say so yes a difficult one for me to i suppose give a an incredible or a comprehensive answer to mr kofi given my responsibilities an area of expertise i think what we have if you allow me to pivot slightly in terms of my responses that with the levers that scotland has in terms of its economic performance and that it sets out in the strategy that we have referred to in today's is that there are opportunities to give it the best chance of success that there are gaps currently and i do recognise i think touched on in opening remarks is that all the more important that because of the nature of the fiscal framework that scotland operates that its relative economic performance outperforms the rest of the uk to deliver the resultant generation of tax receipts and associated public spending but i fear it's a question if it's a wider answer you're looking for that it's probably more for others than me appreciate that no thanks thanks very much for that yeah okay can i take you back to something which you i'm sure you will be able to answer and that is you've mentioned and the deputy convener asked you about this this economic leadership group which is not yet in place i mean who is it envisage will be a member of that is that an internal governmental powerhouse or does it draw on external business people trade unions economists what what does it look what would it look like if it was created last kathen actually to set that out convener because i think it's probably to there are a number of different groups in operation that some have relatively similar names that could imply overlap and indeed that there are other structures that aren't covered by our briefing today that also involve scotland's businesses civil servants and wider perform a wider leadership the key to this one was about that it was very clearly about political leadership actually and kathryn can sit out as well as the intent around that and and if it's helpful for the committee what our understanding of why it hasn't progressed in the way it's intended the accountability framework itself obviously as the auditor mentioned sets out all the membership of each each different kind of layer of governance the economic leadership group was to was due to be chaired by the first minister and it was to include key cabinet ministers for example cabinet secretary for wellbeing economy and net zero transport social justice it was also to include local government reps which i think was the cos of the president and then the chair of the co-chair of the delivery board was due to attend as and when required so yes it was more as as the auditor has mentioned more that kind of political side of it rather than the external you know business and and other higher education sector and whatnot in terms of the yes the response i suppose yeah there's nothing further to add on the rationale for why it hasn't taken place it was just two years on there wasn't any indication of why of why that hadn't happened it's because we may invite the accountable officer from the government to explain to us why it hasn't been convened i think as kathen mentioned in our engagement with government officials we're not any clearer convener as to why the economic leadership group hasn't yet met and i think as we also mentioned that whether it's that or some other mechanism is entirely a choice for government to make i think what we would agree is appropriate is that there needs to be some sort of clearinghouse some sort of prioritisation forum that because because of that there will be prioritisation that has to take place given that there is pressure on public finances and that's most appropriately done at a political level okay thank you very much for that calling bt has got some questions calling thank you convener but in general just a little bit more about the economic leadership group i've got a couple of questions on that your report talks about the the this group offering challenge and offering direction to the senior responsible officers for each of the n set programs that's that's almost a contradiction because if you'd given direction put you challenging you challenging your own direction how does that work i think i would recognize mr beatie i think there is a there is an overlapping terminology and description and he did membership at times of various different governance settings kathen can come in again if she wishes just to say a bit more about the the operation of the groups that have been established kathen mentioned briefly about the some of the cheering nature so the the group the delivery board firstly is co-chaired by a business leader former chief executive of scottish futures trust along with the director general for the economy and so it has that governance arrangements here they look appropriate i think that's one of the overall comments that we make is that the right starting point was made so you know their appropriate representation business involved public bodies also involved but i think what the exploration is really you're asking about is the flow through to the different groups that sit underneath we're not identifying you know fundamental issues with that in today's briefing paper but it's other aspects that are they effectively in place so the prioritisation the measures to support the evaluation framework all need to be better deployed in the next iteration of the strategy to ensure that level of success but again kathen can say a bit more mr beatie thanks mr general i suppose just to clarify the delivery board is was is co-chaired by the capsaic for well-being and mr white former chief scottish futures trust i suppose that their role really is to beneath that when we have we have then the portfolio board and the programme boards their board is to challenge and to scrutinise and to monitor performance of those kind of interconnected parts of the programme each of the board members is has a has a role as a critical friend or a champion for specific areas depending on their relevant expertise and i think a big part of that role is to engage with business and and i suppose promote with business the role or the you know the whole shared vision around the economic the national strategy for economic transformation the portfolio board which is slightly different again obviously that is more like the engine room of the of the of the governance if you like so it's key director generals and the chief executives of the enterprise agencies are involved in that and that has a core role in around the kind of internal monitoring and internal reporting so that information as the auditor general mentions flows through the delivery board who are there to provide that challenge and then as we mentioned that key piece that's missing is the economic leadership group and onto which then they would share that information and decisions are made at a ministerial level you referred to champion roles how does that work and i think they're chosen on the relevant expertise and so for example mr white who's obviously has a housing background i think is a champion with on that specific area or i can't recall the other members which areas for example the green economy is another area so it's basically chosen on the relevant expertise of the board member and we know that there are meetings obviously these meetings happen and are monitored and you know the information is in the public domain there are also meetings with key stakeholders you know out with that as well i suppose just to they've called them to do some deep dives and some exercises around what the challenges are for example with businesses and then to relay that back into the wider board so there's a lot of time spent out with this the official you know forum to as i say those champion or the critical friend around that it's such a vast vast area there's so many elements to it's so many actions and obviously underlying all of those actions are many other strategies and plans so as the auditor general mentioned we felt me there's no right or wrong structure for it but we felt obviously the accountability framework sets out all the roles of each of the groups and the memberships there and so we felt that was that was appropriate trying to stay simple on this so members of the board are going to have champion roles within their areas of expertise they're going to be responsible for giving direction to senior officers and they're going to be challenging whatever they challenge isn't that kind of confusing that multiplicity of roles if i maybe start on this one Catherine might want to add you recall Mr Beattie that i think in my reporting on the Scottish Governments governance arrangements in recent years we have commented upon aspects of complexity and duplication about the the same officials participating in different meetings different names and at times not having necessarily the clarity with which roles responsibilities and actions were flowing from those discussions the committee will be familiar with evidence from the Scottish Government that there is work underway to review and assess how internal governance arrangements within the Scottish Government is operating but it's a trade-off i fear is that this is a complex programme it's a complex strategy you only have to look at the number of actions that are part of the strategy and we thought carefully about just if it digress for a moment if i may the number of actions you know is that too many too few is it is it right and that there are six complex planned areas of activity to support the delivery strategy to really look around 10 or so per per area of the strategy we want to break it down those and it doesn't sound that many so the the need for clarity around roles responsibilities what hats people are wearing to be more global about it is absolutely central and i get a further opportunity if we can put it in those terms as the government is now moving into its next iteration of the strategy that it's got these foundations exactly as it needs to to deliver effectively i think the point we really can't quite get away from in terms of governance is that there wasn't that group at the top level that political leadership overseeing supporting prioritisation making funding decisions if necessary and that was the the missing component of a system that probably by its nature had to have a degree of complexity to it and probably you move neatly on to the next question which i had which is there seems to be lots of groups in place to support delivery event set but there seems to be a strong possibility of duplication of effort fragmentation lack of clarity of purpose will these risks part of your work informed you informed in the briefing by that did you observe and practice that this to be the case i think again kathryn can can say a bit more about our observations of of the deployment of governance arrangements around n set the only three facing remarks i would i would make mr beattie is that a briefing paper doesn't meet an assessment of how successful or otherwise n set is felt it would be premature to arrive at that judgment given the how recent we are into this strategy and we'll continue to have an audit interest both in this strategy and the delivery of its successor but the complexity is there i think what we haven't yet reached an audit judgment on is whether that complexity is necessary for the successful implementation of the strategy but but kathryn can give the committee more of a flavour of the the nature of some of these discussions thanks auditor general um i will try and keep it simple but i think it's it's important to understand that beneath obviously those two kind of two tiers that we've spoken about there are the programme level governance arrangements and as mentioned it spans so many different aspects so many different policy areas and in some cases they draw on existing governance arrangements that were there so for example i think in programme five they they draw on the governance that was already existing around the programme board the fair more equal society but for example in programme three the productive businesses and regions they themselves have created a programme board there i think the important thing overall was when you know that when we when we did the work and we when we engage with focus the clarity of whose role is is to do what but we do make a point in the report that all of these groups and i think we make a recommendation as well should be kept under review there is obviously the normal the you know the the usual assurance reporting and an internal you know direct with reporting around some of these issues as well so um i think that's one of the things we'll keep an eye on just in terms of um like duplication of effort but i think ultimately when we're talking about the actions that are there what we were looking for was that flow of information and reporting on you know where what progress was being made against those and who has been involved and if the delivery partners had felt appropriate delivery partners were involved in um i suppose carrying carrying out those those activities i suppose as soon as you see complexity of governance you get a bit worried because there is a history about poor governance that those committees come against again and again and again and obviously we don't want to see it happen here can i can i just ask another question which is about the uh the Scottish Government hasn't established a shared budget for NSET now do you know why this is and can you maybe expand a little bit on some of the risks that are around that yeah happy to and uh Kirsty might want to say a bit more to circumstances as you say or there is no dedicated budget for the delivery of NSET and i think i don't wish to labour the point about prioritisation and politicians being most appropriate placed to do that but i think that's you know one of the features of our audit identify that even through the delivery board noting that it also identified the need for prioritisation of funding funding instead is held given the nature of the delivery of you know the multiple strands of NSET through different Scottish Government departments as you would probably expect so to deliver a wellbeing economy isn't just going to be in the hands of the economy director of the Scottish Government and he could probably if again if i could just refer to exhibit three we're looking at the the analysis of the various programme measures of success those are interspersed across government departments so that so i'm i'm not advocating this but i'm to say for example whether to be a wellbeing economy department or director within the Scottish Government that might allow for the delivery of a single budget that's not how things work so there are there is money being spent across multiple different departments of the Scottish Government to deliver the programme measures and Kirsty can say a bit more about the the structure in the setup mr beauty because i guess one of the points that because there is complexity because there's multiple moving parts different organisations different departments involved you've got to have the right underpinnings to ensure success in that environment and one of those is clarity of outcomes clarity of measures what spending is delivering the best outcome to support that prioritisation and those are features of the recommendations we make in today's paper but i'll pass to Kirsty to say a bit more i think Catherine might want to come in just on the funding point versus in there to pick up on a permission of itself yeah just to add yeah um so our work identified yes as um the auditor general has mentioned that responsibility sits within directors within the assigned the already assigned budget um and any one um director could contribute or multiple contribute to one particular action so i think at the outset when we'd asked you know what the overall budget was for instead it became quite clear that yes as the auditor general there's not a specific budget um i think probably the bigger thing that we you know the bigger point that we make there is regardless of whether whose budget it comes from there should be a clear outline of what's being invested from all directorates um and obviously that will help i suppose if um help with the spending decisions and i suppose the risk is there if um if we don't have that information you know whether all those priorities are achieved in the same way or whether they're all given the same i suppose emphasis is difficult to tell um i think that's yeah i was just going to add on the evaluation point that you're asking about in the auditor general was mentioning that given that nature of the funding coming from across different directorates it makes the need for a clear evaluation approach even more important to be able to see what actions are being effective and where the investment is having most impact and that leads us to make that recommendation that was set out that that should be developed as part of updating the strategy so setting out that evaluation approach more clearly thanks actually you've addressed uh a chunk of my last question which is about transparency on decisions on funding for inset uh you've covered a number of areas where there's need for transparency are there is there anything you'd like to expand a little bit on that and how best can that transparency be achieved i think welcome you know many of the steps that the government has taken already so you and there are publics minutes of delivery board meeting you can see attendance and so forth there is an annual report an interim report on progress for parliamentary scrutiny for public consumption transparency always matters and this committee is rightly a strong advocate of transparency um but it helps decision makers as well i think that's the that we we know prioritisation mr bt is going to have to happen to deliver this strategy and the next iteration successfully that will require agility no doubt given the volatility of the economic environment that scotland is operating the decisions to continue to invest in a particular programme of work or disinvest if it's not going well all of these decisions will be better made more quickly with transparency around reporting the right measures and effective governance that underpins it all okay thank you um willy coffey's got some questions to put to you now willy thanks again convener and they kind of follow on from collins questions in any case auditor general there's there's a little panel in your report that talks about funding allocations into certain headings for example 50 million pounds for trust transition 42 million pounds for tech scalars and so on and so on is that new money or is that just money that's identified in the the programme for government and rebadged as national strategy for economic transformation i mean it mentions 4.7 billion pounds for Covid-19 business support can't possibly be new money so you're right it's a combination mr coffey was our assessment as we did the work i think just referring to the table paragraph 25 so the inset annual report identifies 9.8 billion pounds of investment but the delivery plans that point about transparency wasn't always clear to our work about you know the extent of which this is new money it's rolling forward of previous commitments that have been made and i think in that environment i'll just you know build my own discussion with mr beatie is that there's not enough clarity or transparency about which measures are having the biggest impact now which is which element is a priority which indicators have been delivered given some of the the traditional aspects of evaluation methodology weren't in place but you're right you know i think we we highlight the 4.7 billion of of Covid-19 related business support as clearly a very important intervention that the government made at the time of the pandemic in terms of supporting business and the economy but one you would think is its impact is ebbing in terms of the priorities that the government is currently facing and you also mentioned again the it system challenge to allow us to track this spend across these portfolios or even just to allow us to track it at all what's the issue there i think we're fairly direct in that point in the briefing paper mr coffey that some of these arrangements should have been in place on the earlier stage at the outset of the implementation of the strategy because of the i feel i'm saying this a lot but the prioritisation that was needed and remains to be done in terms of the implementation of the various programs in the strategy overall will be better served with effective information at decision makers answered i think i'm cursed he might want to come in just to perhaps say a bit more about the evaluation arrangements that were in place and the work that's still needing to be done thank you auditor general yeah so at the time of carrying out our audit work the Scottish government's approach to evaluation was in development what we saw at that time was that they were developing an approach that they called the logic models which essentially map out the links between the inputs that are underneath the strategy and map them through to activities to outcomes and then through to the potential expected impact that those actions will have they were in development at that point and at that point as we say in the report we weren't clear that there was an expected timeline for when they would be completed or exactly how they were going to be built into the wider framework around performance measurement and evaluation and that's why we've recommended in the report that they should be completed as part of that update and then that should help them to develop an approach that will help them to understand what is working and where and where the investment is having most impact which as the auditor general says will be a crucial part of helping them to prioritise actions and understand where they want where they can best make use of resource thanks it's always worth asking about monitoring progress and how we'll evaluate and you've mentioned it several times Stephen and you also said the government's updating this strategy and reported that to the NSET committee? I think it's to the economy committee all of the commentary you've made about make sure we know what the evaluation process is and so on how we know how effective all of this is is that being changed fundamentally do you think? So a bit like as we've referenced and as the government has moved from one strategy to another they have carried over some indicators we know that there's work in progress on this front as Kirsty has mentioned about logic models and evaluation frameworks we would we're clear in our view Mr Coffey that and recommendation that this needs to be there from the start of the strategy have an evaluation methodology have clear indicators know how you're going to track and monitor and support all prioritisation evaluation that flows from that to support decision makers and the government's senior comments on this issue and I would hope and expect that that's been taken on board and this will be built into the revised strategy I would expect so we would hope that to be the case okay and then just lastly for media reader there's an element of the programme entrepreneurial people in culture programme contains the highest number of actions you've said you've mentioned it earlier as well but it seems to have made the least progress I mean what could you just expand a wee bit on that why do you think that is if we have if we have that detail we can make I don't know if Cornelius maybe wants to set that out first of all I suppose the number of actions in terms of that programme but if not we can that's all the tech scaler stuff a lot of that would sit in there I would think well quite I mean just maybe before passing to Cornelius I think you know again referring the committee to exhibit three in the programme measures for entrepreneurial people and culture is about we mentioned but tech you mentioned tech scalers mr croffie about early stage entrepreneurial activity and one of the measures about survival rates of new businesses after three years and the number of high growth registered businesses all vital parts of the strategy in terms of economic success bringing highly paid jobs into Scotland and that the committee has heard evidence recently in terms of the Scottish income tax rates about the importance of this activity to underpin wider economic success and growth but again Cornelius me want to say a bit more. No thank you auditor general no I think you are you are right I mean we we did reflect on exactly that point when we were looking at progress around the the actions I think it's difficult to draw any conclusions on this because when we were looking at the actions they all carry different weight so counting the number of actions in itself might not sort of you know could not lead us to a clear conclusion whether there was a problem with that particular programme of work or not so I guess what I'm saying is maybe I wouldn't suggest at this stage that we read too much into the number of actions that are still in progress maybe this is something we could visit with future work to look at what progress is actually happening in terms of delivering the outcomes that would expect to see from the from the programme yeah and lastly you you will be following up following through with this work I would imagine auditor general so we haven't scoped our next iteration yet Mr Coffey I think looking forward to engaging with the committee next month in my my work programme where might go I think what we've what I've said as I'll just repeat it in my introductory remarks is that Scotland's economic performance is absolutely one of my priorities for further audit activity that Audit Scotland will be undertaking is where we precisely go next is one that we're just giving up that consideration to first okay that just a bit covers it from me convener thanks yeah thanks willy and I'm going to turn now to deputy convener Jamie Greene who's got a final question or two to put to you thank you Jamie yeah it's nicely carrying on from the conversations we've just been having around progress on the action points I appreciate you said you don't have a view whether 70 I think it's 78 79 is enough for too many or is the right balance spread across the six areas but let's have a look at it where we are at at the moment in terms of auditing if you look at the first four of them which are probably centered around very specific interventions outside of things like diversity fairness and culture but if you look at the more business orientated ones actions completed entrepreneurial people and culture one new market opportunities nil productive businesses and regions one skilled workforce nil I'm at the risk of sounding like a football results commentator but they're pretty poor in that respect is there any concern at all in your audit work that we're simply not making enough progress in some of these actions so can you listen can say a bit more about the the specifics of the progress you ask about deputy convener I think what we haven't looked to do in today's briefing paper is make an assessment as is the government on track okay you know that they've felt that given the number of variables the relatively short period with which the strategy has been in place less than two years that from an audit perspective that would be premature and audit methodologies have evolved so you know as the committee will know historically an auditor would only really get involved after a strategy has been closed and that it deliverer otherwise I think what we're looking to do with today's work is to hopefully support its impact that public money is well spent and in highlighting some of the areas for improvement to give the government the best opportunity to deliver the strategy is where we've pitched today's briefing paper I think as I mentioned to Mr Coffey this doesn't end our interest far from it in terms of the successful delivery of the strategy and that's something that we'll return to in due course so not really able to give you a definitive position or answer today about you know is this good bad or indifferent in terms of the performance against the indicators some you know they won't all be operating to timescales that are uniform in terms of the delivery of individual indicators and it ultimately goes back to some of the things we've covered in discussion this morning that will be about prioritisation because some of these indicators are actions that were set two years ago will have been carried forward some will have been very important when they were struck at the point the strategy was launched but as events change priorities will will move into different places so these are all the factors that we will absolutely be returning to in future work but for today can you at least might want to give a bit more of a flavour of that but I suspect we're going to be less than then definitive of in terms of the specifics of your answer unfortunately no probably not a lot to add there to what the auditor general has said probably the key thing to highlight is you know it is a 10 year strategy that the the government has launched so a lot of the actions will have to be delivered over that 10 year period would we've expected to see more closed at this time you know they're only two years into into the program possibly possibly not I think there's also an issue of you know going back to to to an earlier question we looked at around how do these actions come together how do they align they are certain things that may be government who will have to do first before certain things can actually happen and I think this probably speaks to what the auditor general is saying about us maybe revisiting this area once Scottish government has had enough time to to deliver the strategy yeah we wouldn't make any definitive judgments at the moment around progress based on the on the numbers I'm hoping though we're not saying we're going to wait eight years before we work out where the strategies work to not I'm not sure how many of us will be here questioning you or indeed who will be who will we be questioning it's surely something we should have a watching rolling brief on an annual basis yes yeah I think that's fair actually and certainly something that I'll be returning to long before I finish my tenure in this role and I think really the purpose of today's briefing paper you know it says not to express judgments about whether the strategy is has or hasn't been successful but really that there are risks and also opportunities for the government and its partners you know and I'm not thinking you know recognising what we haven't touched on is that in the government's programme for government stating clearly its intention to increase the importance and success of its relationship with Scotland's businesses that's my next question don't worry so there are there are steps that will undoubtedly be taken by the Scottish government at the right point that will have a more audit judgment led reporting from audit Scotland on it I think we'll just need to give a bit of thought as to with the environment and the circumstances as to when that best takes place yeah and I guess that's part of the complexity of of what our respective roles are in this is you know using public money and government intervention certain areas that it chooses to versus using that as leverage to to improve the wider economic outlook where the private sector where businesses a small medium-sized business for example are a part of that solution if you like and I guess that's that was one of the things I did want to touch on is that there's very very short mention on page 14 of your briefing on this new deal for businesses that's been touted by the government I guess we're the government's facing a bit of it would you say it's facing a bit of an uphill struggle with that some of the independent analysis which came out last year from people like Thresund Ovalander and other groups had a I would say to be fair less than favorable outlook on that relationship by August of last year's they were quoting that only 9% of Scottish businesses believed that the Scottish government understood the business environment that they worked in and in certain sectors that was there was huge differential in areas like hospitality construction professional services it was between 50 and 90% believed that they didn't understand their environment so I guess that's that's the backdrop that they're up against that's the uphill struggle that they're facing is there it's very early to tell but is there any evidence that that new deal for businesses working or has been reset I think really just to refer the committee to the final sentence in paragraph 28 that will take time to see the impact of the activity the success of the new deal for business if I may just to add deputy convener I think one of the areas of auditivity beyond the success of the national strategy itself is that we are specifically thinking and scoping a piece of audit work on the Scottish national investment bank given how central it will be to wider aspects of the delivery of the of the strategy and thinking carefully I suppose about the funding environment that the bank is also operating in as the committee heard last week in respect of the the emerging scarcity of the financial transactions budget that was a key source of funding for the bank what that means for the delivery of its strategy we're thinking about we are an audit role and audit reporting can work alongside that to support parliament's understanding of the bank's work so that's part of our programme that again as a major look forward to discussing with the committee next month I think we probably look look forward to that there's generally a wide expectation is that you know whose role is it to follow the money whenever every pound of public money that's spent in various means and it's something that's quite hard to follow which directorate is funding which bit of you know which grants available where investment's made where you know nationalisation's occurred for example and following that route to looking at whether that's been a good return on investment and is meeting the objectives of inset and other government strategies so that's quite hard to do yeah I absolutely recognize the complexity of it I think the one point that's maybe worth highlighting in terms of I guess that strategic alignment point I think you're making is that Scotland's economic agencies have also now aligned their business plans with the intentions of inset not feels pretty logical and sensible step that there is that synergy across you know the multiple players in this environment so again from an audit perspective we'll keep tracking and thinking about where we go next in terms of our reporting so that's good thank you okay thank you very much indeed and that draws to a close our evidence session on this briefing paper on the national economic strategy so can I thank Auditor General you for the evidence that you've given us also Cornelius Chagwama for your contribution this morning Catherine Young and Kirsty Ridkin for thank you as well and I'm now going to move the meeting into private session