Everybody, today we're debating the black pill and we're starting right now with Alex's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us just to introduce you folks on the left side of the screen. You have Alex, Natty and Kevin who are generally critics of the black pill. We'll start with Alex's opening. Thanks so much for being with us, Alex. Thanks for having me. So yeah, I think the black pill is largely nonsense. I think there are small things that they say that has pockets of truth, but they largely blow things out of proportion. So three specific things that I think the black pill is wrong about. One game doesn't exist. I mean, I think this is just the most asinine thing and I'm going to prove that throughout the debate. Two, looks are the only things that matter. Of course, looks are important, but looks are not the only things that matter. And three, women don't like being approached.  So those are the things I think that, you know, they're wrong about. They also have this weird obsession with giga chats and whatnot. So yeah, so, but yeah, those are three specific points that I think the black pill is wrong about. Thank you very much for that opening. We'll kick it over to Nat. Thanks so much for being with us. Nat, the floor is all yours. My pleasure. I highly disagree with the black pill to myself.  And another thing that I highly disagree with them is that just 10% I think or 20% of male are the ones who are having all the sex in relationships. Although men are not having as much sex as they're used to, women are not these big slots. So thank you very much. And kick it up to Kevin right above me on screen. Thanks for being with us, Kevin. Thank you. Yeah, so I'm a big critic of the black pill. I've debated big people in the black pill space, including wheat waffles. And Mikkel dictionary, I guess he's a little bit smaller, but he's got kind of like a cold following. Yeah, so the black pill, it's very interesting because they black pillars talk as if it's not an ideology. And that's interesting because they might have a case because if you talk to each black pillar, they'll have sort of different ideas of what the black pill is, but I do think that there's one inherent thing that kind of ties it all together. And that is one negativity and then also genetic fatalism. Genetic fatalism being that no matter what, based on your genetics, no matter what actions you take, you're going to inevitably end up in the same fate no matter what. And because of that, it's a sort of mindset, I guess you could say, for lack of a better word, that is just completely revolved around negativity.   Yeah, looks matter. If you're like a four foot tall gremlin looking dude, you're probably not going to be dating the hottest girl in town. But instead they take that and they tie in fatalism and nihilism into it and say, oh, therefore it's over. Common platitudes are in the black pill. It's over. Copper rope. Your genetics are, what is it?  If you agree with any of those platitudes, you are automatically a genetic fatalism and automatically a nihilist. And that's why I think it's a reprehensible ideology because two things can be true at once. You can think that looks are the matter the most when it comes to dating, something that I personally believe in, me being a personal trainer and specializing in helping guys look good, have good style, make sure that they have a low body fat percentage, et cetera, et cetera.  You can actually do something about it and actually try to not have sort of this victim mindset. So I want to establish that before anybody says that the black pill is like, oh, it just looks and that's it. No, it's way more than that. It looks plus a negative outlook on looks. Thanks so much for that opening as well. And we'll kick it over to, I want to be clear, not everyone who's about to announce themselves is, you could say, particularly black pill, in particular, Nama who will introduce herself will let her specify exactly where she stands, but we'll get the ball rolling with Vanta who does identify with the black pill. And Vanta, if you want to do us a favor, just explaining roughly speaking what the black pill is for anybody who's new to the topic. So yeah, so the black pill pretty much is the idea that looks is the most important thing when it comes to like mating, dating stuff like that and other influences such as personality are like significantly less influential when it comes to mating and dating and stuff like that. Me personally, I, IRL, I am a personal trainer as well as Kevin and I have this black pill ideology from like seeing different stuff with my personal training journey, with my own personal experiences and stuff like that. So yeah, from my experience, it seems that like the idea of genetic fatalism doesn't seem to be completely endemic to the black pill. It seems to be more that the point that your genetics play an extremely large part in mating, dating, social interactions and stuff like that. And it seems to be like very undermined by a lot of red pillars saying that like anybody can ascend to like a certain level where they can do X, Y and Z. However, for maybe not a lot of people, but for a segment of the population, no matter what they do to an extent, they will never necessarily ascend because of, unless some large amount of luck is at play because of mainly genetic factors. Thank you very much for that opening. And Nama, good to have you back. I think it's been like two years, but Nama has a very popular podcast on this topic. You could say the study of the black pill or incel. Thanks so much for being with us, Nama. You introduce yourself as well. All right. Well, yes, I have a podcast on incels and I study them in a way. I've been involved in academic studies about them. And mostly I just talk to them a lot. One thing that I don't really subscribe to are absolutes. And so I'm hearing a lot of those in the way people are characterizing their positions. Obviously, I don't think that the black pill is real. And the points that Kevin made, I think I agree with them, but looks do matter. I think they actually don't. And everyone here seems to think that they matter the most and I really don't actually. So that's a big disagreement. I have with the black pill, but they do matter. And maybe not everyone can ascend with game and maybe this is a phallistic negative victimhood mindset that I don't think is particularly helpful. But I guess I understand how it can come about. And my approach on my show is I don't really debate and I don't really argue with people. So I really don't come at it from that perspective of agreement or disagreement. I'm more just, you know, I talk to each individual about every individual point rather differently. You got it. Thank you very much for that, Nama. And last but not least, QB, thanks for being with us. The floor is all yours for your introduction as well. Yes, QB passport flex and travel bro that identifies with the black pill in regards to looks money status. A lot of dating coaches in this, you know, Manisphere will say that you need game. I feel that when it comes to game, you cannot manipulate attraction if the women does not find you physically attractive. A lot of dating coaches will disagree.  But again, it goes back to physical looks. Status plays a role as well. So if you're a movie star or a professional sports player, women are attracted to status. So with those key elements of guys understand looks money status is going to, you know, attract women. You're good and you're not going to need game. But however, every guy does not have that capability and power.   You're freezing. We lost the last part there. That's right. Dating what dating coaches teach and then you cut out. OK, sorry about that. Dating coaches, for the most part, they'll teach manipulative tactics. However, those tactics, if the guy is not able to physically attract a woman. You got a little bit QV because you're thinking for that opening. It may have a Wi-Fi Max QV. Sometimes it helps if you turn down or turn off the video and then the audio is able to make it through a little bit more easily. Do we get everything that you had for your opening? OK, yes. Yes, you guys did. I'm going to work on that really, really quick. OK, you got a Wi-Fi. No problem. And want to remind you, folks, our guests are linked in the description. So if you'd like to hear more from our guests regarding their positions, you certainly can by clicking on their links in the description box. That includes, if you're listening via the podcast, as we include our guest links at the description box there for the podcast as well. Last but not least, 100% of the super chats that come in from today's stream will be going to Worldwide Orphans, a charity that, obviously, as you can probably expect, helps orphans across the world. They have a great charity watchdog rating as well. In other words, they're very responsible with the funds that they receive in terms of actually putting them toward their goal or vision of helping orphans across the world. So with that, we're going to jump into open conversation. Thanks so much for being with us. The floor is all yours to our guests. I was going to ask this question to QB, but while he's Wi-Fi maxing, let me ask Kavanta. Do you think game exists? Do you prescribe to the BlackBill idea that game doesn't exist? So I think the game plays in somewhat of a minimal part in attraction. I would say maybe 15% maybe. I would say that game exists. Other than that, I would say it's mainly physical attraction. That's what I would say. So let me pose you a hypothetical. Two identical twins approach the same girl. One is very smooth and charming. He chats her up and he flirts with her and then he gets her phone number. The other one hollers from the side of the road and is like, yo, bitch, let me get them digits, right? Do you think there's going to be only a 15% difference in their likelihood of hooking up with a girl? Well, that's not like how percentages work. So if one is higher than the other, then she's going to go with the higher one. Like we're not dealing with percentages. We're dealing with absolutes. So there's two different people. One person has a better approach than the other person and everything else is equal. Of course she's going to go with that guy, right? Like nothing else has changed and only the approach is different. Like you could say there are two people, right? And one person has a slightly better haircut, only slightly, but other than that, they're exactly the same. The woman will go with the man with the better haircut, right? So it's about these two different absolutes rather than like game being this like strong determinant. Let me rephrase the question then a little bit because I don't want it to be a competition between those two identical twins. Let's do a hundred situations, right? So there's a hundred identical twins.  One of them is very smooth and charming and calculated. The other one is just kind of hollering on the side of the road. Do you think there's only going to be a 15% difference between the results of those two groups? So wait, say that again, sorry, I think I lagged out. So we're hypothetical. So there's a hundred identical twins, right? Let's just say I go and I find a hundred identical twins. I'm one of the guys to be very smooth, charming and charismatic when they go up and talk to girls, right? They're all going to go up and talk to a girl. And then I instruct the other ones to be very just like rude and abrasive and just be like, you know, give me the number. Yeah, yeah. That's what a girl should like that, right? Do you think there's going to be only a 15% difference between the results of those two groups are going to do? What do you think it's going to be? The discrepancy will be like near enough, like the woman will always choose a guy with a better game rather than the guy with the worst game. I 100% agree with that. With all other things being equal, but the problem is all other things are never equal, right? But I agree the game exists. I've never like said that that wasn't true. I 100% agree. All other things being equal. If you have a better game than the next guy and the next guy is identical to you, 100% of the time you're going to go out there better than the other guy with the bad game, you know, 100% agree. What about, okay, how about this one last one, Kevin? What about you have two guys, two groups of guys? What is a six? One is an eight, objectively speaking. The eight takes the approach of like hollering on the side of the road and the six is very smooth and charming, right? And this experiment is run with 100 different people, 100 different tops. Do you think, who do you think is going to be more likely to win, the six or the eight? The eight with the really good approach or the six with a really good approach? I think honestly, there would be like some variation between I can like speculate on the stats, but I think there'll be like some mixing of the two. Like sometimes the eight out 10 guy was a bad game would win, sometimes win, win. I mean, like he would like be successful. Sometimes the six out 10 guy with a good game would win, but I would say it would lean more towards like the eight out of 10 guy with the bad game, but only raised maybe like 60, 40, maybe, but these are all like random stats, which I'm just making up off the top of my head. I'm not too sure. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, honestly. Okay, okay, so you... Say.  I know a lot of people here probably believe that you can, but I really don't think so. I don't think that, you know, I think that when you're talking about maybe generally on the aggregate, someone deemed kind of average and someone deemed very attractive, maybe we can, you know, distinguish between those.  I mean, we are just making things up at this point, right? I agree with you, Nama, that it is an aggregate and then obviously to some people, a guy might be a six to some he might be a seven. Yeah, but it's just for the sake of the hypothetical, I want to figure out how important Bonta things game is. So that's kind of what I'm getting at, but I agree with your premise. Yeah, I understand, you know, I understand what you're trying to get at too. It's just, you know, I don't think that it's all so subjective and that's one of the points. That's one of the things that I disagree with about the black pill is sort of ranking and rating. So Nama, do you think that looks are subjective inherently? So I wouldn't say like completely subjective, but I would say like there would be some sort of range. Like maybe you would say like a guy is a five out 10 and then another woman might say, I don't know, maybe he's an eight out of the 10, for example. I wouldn't say a number in the first place. I just, I don't even think that way. I think that they are, there are objective standards of beauty, of course, but I think that that's pretty, you know, once you're talking about what might be an eight or what might be a five in terms of desire, I guess I think that's really subjective. Okay. Would you say there's a preferable way to rate other than like a purely numbers based system? Would you say that there's something better which will be used to? No, not really. That's the, I mean, I just, for me as a woman and maybe my colleague woman on here will agree that I don't think that I could convey the level of attractiveness. If it's, you know, if there was someone I was extremely attracted to, I could say that. And if there was someone who was cute, I could say that. And if there's someone who doesn't do it for me, I could say that, but I don't think I could get much more specific. Okay. I have read with Nama. That's how you pronounce your name? Yeah. And like the whole number system, it's something that it was only introduced to me once. I started dating my current boyfriend. But before that, like, it's not something that it's like, I'm spoken amongst my group of friends either. And I don't think it's never, it's not something that we're like, oh, that guy, it's a four. That guy's a four. Oh. He's clearly a sub five. Stay away from him. Right. Like, do you ever even think that way? Could you even make that? No. Like it's never, it's never been, and I find that attraction, it's one, I do agree that, that whoever you find attractive, it's 100, like it's 90% subjective. Yeah. Let me steal, man, actually the black belt position, because I've debated them so many times, like I can tell you the counter argument they're gonna give to what you said, Natty. They're gonna say that, yes, it may not be conscious, but subconsciously in the back of your head, there's like an algorithm that's being processed, where when you see a guy, even you're not consciously aware he's a seven, in the back of your mind, you're still, you have a number, that you haven't even like conceptualized, and when that guy approaches you, basically that number's gonna determine how you're gonna respond to him. So that's, I'm just steelmaning the black argument. Is that correct, Vanta? Well, I think the idea here is more that, like if you see an attractive man, like you know the guy's attractive, you don't have to rate him, you don't have to say, oh, this man over here is a 10 hour 10, look at this Chad walking past the street now. No one really like most people, I wouldn't say no one because obviously some people do think like that, but most people don't really think like that, they say, hey, this guy's attractive, this guy, you know, he's all right, he's okay. This guy is not too attractive, you know? That's really how people see it. People don't generally see it as like 10, one, two, you know, all these different like scales, which we use here. I just use the scales because it's easier to convey my ideas better. For example, if I wanna say someone's more attractive than another person, then I would say like the two versus the three, or like a six versus a seven. If I was to just say like less attractive and more attractive, I guess I could use it there, but I think if I was to use it like that, it doesn't really put it into a grander scale. For example, if I was to say like, so there's this less attractive guy and this more attractive guy, you don't really know like how attractive these people are because you can't actually see them. If I was to say like this two out of 10 guy and this three out of 10 guy, you kind of get a more solid picture of what these people actually look like if you get what I mean. Well, I do anyway. See, I don't. I think that actually, but I think that actually men do a bit more. I think that for men, there is a little bit more of a concrete sort of ranking system for appearance. I don't think, you know, I can't see the guy if you say two or three or eight or two. Like I know what's being referred to. So it does serve that purpose. I think it's possible it might be projection on the end of the black billers because the way that they look at women is they'll use numbers to rate them, right?  Yeah, yeah, no, this, because this is how I rate the opposite sex.  So it's kind of, it's an interesting thing where again, I'm not making the claim that that's exactly what's going on, but I think it's definitely a possibility, right? Where that projection is happening, where they think that women value looks just as much as men do because men value looks so much and they can't see out of that worldview. Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. Quickly, let me just respond to Kevin here. So I think that's an interesting point, but when we look into what women and men do on dating apps, I don't really think that's necessarily true. For example, like on dating apps, women will swipe right, or not like 95% of the pictures they are showing. On dating apps, that's a good example. Are you sure that's a good example? Yeah.  Of course, it's very transactional, right? You're going- I also understand why this matters though, because a lot of people do use dating apps now, and that's why it is actually important. And I understand why so much emphasis is put on looks and men that believe in the black pill would get that impression. And you might be right in the sense that that's the way a lot of people end up forming connections now, because that's the medium that we use, which I think is problematic in and of itself. Why would you make it that way? I'm sorry, but it's not the only medium where people are meeting other people, right? Like people still meet each other at bars, people still meet each other at work. And in real life, I think that there's more to it than looks. Oh yeah. And looks don't play such a significant factor. I'll say to you, I don't know if in your case, for example, I know it's very anecdotal, but for me, I've met people who, they're not my type whatsoever. There was a story with this guy, he was not my type whatsoever. And I fell head over heels over this guy because he was so charming. He was not attractive at all, but he was charming. He was, there was this chemistry. Yes, that is something that the black field does not take into account is the chemistry you have with him. Okay, I get it. I'm ugly, okay? And you fell in love with me anyway. Is that what you're talking about? If it counts for anything, Alex, I think you're extremely handsome. I think, wait, before we move further, I think we should flush Alvante's positions because he actually doesn't seem like an extreme blackbiller. He thinks that looks account for 15%. Now personally, I think looks are like 50%. I think looks account for like 85. Yeah, he said game is 15%. I think game is closer to 50%, but I'm not gonna, I go with you over the exact percent just because that's just without a study, we're not gonna get there. So I wanna move on to some of your other positions and really flesh out what you feel. So this way we can like adequately debate you. So what are like the biggest blackout platitudes that you hold to? The biggest platitudes? Well, I would say like... Well, you wouldn't call it platitudes. Well, would you agree with some of them? My main fundamental ideas pertaining to the blackbiller, sure. So I think the main one we've spoken about is looks, looks being the most important overall. I think there's a level of genetic determinism when it comes down to social interactions or when it comes down to like, people's genetic predisposition to like socially interact a certain way. For example, a vast, vast amount of the blackbill are people who have autism, right? A crazy amount relative to the general population. So one of the reasons why this might be, why people with autism are overrepresented in the blackbill is because when it comes to relationship, the nuance of relationship is extremely intense, right? Like you're playing like practically 4G chess when you're like interacting and trying to like relate with people. But we don't even know because it's subconscious, it's like inbuilt into our minds, right? But if you have autism, then it's so much more difficult. Extremely, like I speak to a lot of people because like I have somewhat of like a big discord community and I like talk with these guys a lot. And a lot of the times like these guys are average. They're like, okay, looking guys, right? But they're what a lot of people call mental cells, right? So a lot of the time it's there, it's a way which they interact, which is a big, big issue, right? So a lot of the times they're okay, they're good looking, but it's how they interact with people. So I would say that level of genetic determinism outside of looks is also very important when it comes to... How do you explain that? Cause you know, the pickup community, for example, a large part of it is autistic as well.  So that's why my, what I said at the beginning of my opening statement is that the black pill is more, I don't have a huge problem with their descriptive statements of saying looks is what matters the most. I agree with that. Alex's scale is maybe 50, 50, mine's maybe like, I don't know, 70, 30 or whatever, but that big, that 30% is huge. Yours is like 85, 15. So look, it's kind of just, it's, I guess it's sort of a scale of like how important looks are. That's just a descriptive claim that you're making. I mean, that's not, I don't think that's what makes the black pill reprehensible. What I think makes it reprehensible is that as a defeatist attitude that is inherently negative and cynical and causes and it preaches you to not take action, right? And I think we just sort of just, I'm not saying proved it, but the fact that there's autistic guys are overly represented in black pill, they're overly represented in pickup as well, but the very least within pickup, it's action-based and these guys are actually doing something unlike the black pill, whether or not. I mean, I don't really understand how you could say the autism which is literally predicated on someone's inability to, I guess you could say like socially interact to the same level that somebody who doesn't have autism would not impact somebody's ability to like, they get relationships. That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying. That's, you just presuppose the idea that if you're autistic, you're just fucked. That's not true at all. Autistic people can learn to become very socially adept.  I still think pickup is cringe for the most part, but the very least like they're actually doing something rather than being like, oh, well, it's over, you know? Which is what the black pills tend to do. Yeah, I completely understand that point. But I think, well, I wouldn't say the black pills always say like it's over. Like for me, for example, I personally help black pills out with like their, on their fitness journey because I'm a PTR can help people out, you know? So I have that expertise, I guess you could say. Yeah, so that's why I also think, though, that I agree with Alex, you're less of a black pillar than the people we're familiar with. I'm one of the most black pillars of the black, of the black pillars. I'm like very, very black. No, dude, the hardcore black pillars believe game doesn't exist at all. Game places don't grow. That's what they believe. They say that, like, I don't know. I think if you kind of peel back the layers, it's a little bit less and then also game too. Like, what does that mean? I know what we're, you know, the conceit is what it means here, but I think that that means different things to different people. I think it's true that pick up artists that the community can probably help people socializing. I think that a lot of it is valid, but it can also be very difficult to help people on the spectrum with that in ways that, you know, the tips that they might learn in that community don't necessarily overcome. And I think that the other thing about being on the spectrum is that also plays a part in why the ranking and rating and the numbers and why the meeting online, you know, is so much more prevalent there. So I think it's all kind of complicated. I mean, this question to Yvonta, this is interesting. So black pillars typically, well, with the exception of you and maybe a few others, say looks are like the only things that matter, at the very least, they're the main things that matter. Why is it that literally such a small percentage of the black bill communities actually in really good shape? Why is it that most of them are either skinny, fat or out of shape, or at the very least have them like Jim Max, which is something that you can do just for free or close to free? Why is that the case? Because you would think that if looked at only things that matter, then you would just obsess about going to the gym and getting as jacked as possible.  I mean, do you have evidence for that? Do you like, is there any? We can't do that. We can't do the evidence when the incels hide behind the computer screens and never sort of. It's pretty, it's pretty. We just have to trust them and say like, oh, trust me, guys, I have a six pack and I can bench 400 pounds, even though I've never showed it online. Just trust it.  I'll give you my evidence for that. I'll give you my evidence for that. It is largely anecdotal, but I do a lot of debates, I do a lot of stuff.  Well, look at their profile and they'll be like skinny fat. That's just been the case every time.  So it's kind of anecdotal, but it's also hard because literally 95% of black boys won't even show their face. So yeah, but I would speculate and I would be quite confident most black pillars are not in good shape.  Very few of them are actually jacked out of their minds.  So you just, so from like the anecdotal stuff. I've seen a lot of their, I'm saying, I'm saying a lot of them won't show their face, but I have seen a lot of their faces of bodies. I'm just saying there's also much larger percentage that won't show their face to bodies. Okay, sure. So with my experience of the black pill and in the black bill community, I find that a lot of these people generally, like their builds are okay. I don't really meet too many like, I do every now and again, right? But like on the whole, I would say like, their physiques above average, honestly, a lot of black pillars are super into gym maxing. There's a black pillar, Nero, isn't it Nero something? I don't remember it. But like he has like a really, really big channel compared to like a lot of other black bill channels. And he makes like purely looks maxing black bill content, right? Telling people like different ways to improve their SMV, telling people different stuff like that. So I think that a lot of SMV is like sexual market values. So like how you look effectively. I wanna jump in really quick. But how would that make that black bill? Like couldn't you just be- One sec, I wanna jump in really quick. QB, if you can hear us, we're pumped to have you back. And just because poor, poor Vanta has been basically the only- Right, right. So you could say strong- I'm starting to feel bad. I feel like dog piling on, you know. This QB is the one- Props to you for taking all of us on. Yeah, that's cool. Let's hear your case QB for the black pill. Right, right. So I just wanna make sure that I'm coming in okay. You hear me okay? Yeah, it is okay. Yeah, this is much better. It's much better, yeah. Okay, okay. I apologize to the internet here. This is really bad. I'm not at my place. Anyways, I'm here. There's some people of the black pill, you know, Alex kind of mentioned that black pillars are not in shape, you know, they're skinny fat and they just complain, well, I can kind of say that for a lot of red pillers, you know, like look at the red pillers that are married.  Should be, sure. But it's different because the red pillars aren't saying looks are the only things that matter, right? It's the black pillars who are saying that. So yes, it makes sense for someone who doesn't think looks are the biggest thing ever to not be in the best shape ever. But it makes no sense for someone who says that looks are the only things that matter to not be in the best shape. There's the big difference there. I mean, I think with that point, like a lot of the black pillars, which I've seen personally, they are in shape. They're in like good physical condition. They go to the gym regularly, right? I encourage people actively to go to the gym more, like on my channel. And a lot of the guys do, a lot of the guys, like they look fine and overly jacked, but they're not like overly obese or like on the way or whatever it may be. I think what, this really, really annoys me, right? So wheatwaffles, right? He's the one who perpetuated this whole idea because wheatwaffles went on the debate and then he says, oh, muscles don't matter or muscles don't improve your SMV. They don't make you look better, which is dumb. It's asinine. I don't know why he said it. I don't know what to say, but it's just not true, right? There's studies which prove that it's true, like the anecdotal data which proves it's true. I don't understand why he said it. By the way, a side note, if you guys want to see wheatwaffles get destroyed on that point, it's on my channel. So I debated him on that. Yeah, and his channel. Yeah, I, Vonta, we're on total agreement there. That's saying that, oh, going to the gym is actually gonna make you uglier.  Yeah, that's why I keep saying Vonta, you're not an extreme blackbiller, but kind of on your point, I know this may sound like cherry picking by promise, it's not.  Well, if looks are the only things that matter, why would you be okay? Why would you not be super jacked? If it's the only things that matter, then why would you not like completely max out your fitness? A lot of the times there's like different external factors. I can't speak for people, because obviously I'm trying to do that now, like at the gym I'm trying to like, I'm a power lifter more than a bodybuilder, I care about like lifting heavy stuff, so I'm looking super, super cool. All right, I love it. But I would say... Depression? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there's different like, exactly. So there's different like confounding factors, which influences like a lot of these people, extremely socially anxious, like there was this one guy and this is like perpetuated throughout a lot of black builders, which I was like trying to get to the gym, I was like trying to encourage them, look, it's a good environment. It's like, nah, man, I can't do it. Like all the people, they'll laugh at me, you know, I'm the guy going in the gym, I'll be all skinny.  All this negative ideas that I'm trying to tell this guy, nah, it's cool, it'll be okay. The most, how can I say this? The environment which is the most conducive to positive thought, in my opinion, is the gym, because everybody in the gym is moving towards the same aim, right? Well, at the gym, we're trying to get stronger, fit up, healthier, whatever it may be, right? We're moving towards the same aim. And I think a lot of the time, this positive reinforcement can be like really, really good for these guys, but we have to remember where these guys are coming from. These guys, a lot of the time have been like, dejected one way or another. Maybe even if you like might not think like their experience like real, or like they're overinflated, or whatever it may be, is real for them, right? These people have like felt real palpable, like damage from the interactions which they faced in society. And then because of that, a lot of them have like regressed away from society and now they're staying at home, doing all this sort of stuff. I can try and help these people, and that's what I'm trying to do. But I think that just saying that because looks are most important, these people should like Uber, Max, their looks, and just like disregard every other factor which is going on, I think is, which isn't what you're saying to be fair. But I think if you would like take that point to its logical conclusion, I think that's just like not reasonable or realistic outcome for most black people. Well, what should they do about that? Forgive me, forgive me, Alec. Alec, forgive me. The only reason, just because we have Nama for a limited time as Nama has to go in maybe about 10 minutes or so. And so Nama, do you have any thoughts just because we want to get as many thoughts from you before you have to take off? I guess just that, yeah, that there are things in the black pill that are obviously not entirely logical and certainly not positive and not encouraging and not healthy, but sometimes the black pill and focusing on things in it is the best someone can do at a certain point. And I don't think that engaging with it is always, I kind of agree that it's not, the idea that one has discovered the truth is a bit of yes, exactly. That's a good way to put it. It is a cope. Oh yeah, Vonta, you've literally touched on like a major issue I have with the black pill community and that's largely from what I see fatalistic and negative. A lot of these guys, the reason they're not actually Uber maxing their fitness is because they think there's no hope. There's no point. They weren't born these giga chats and maybe they can have a small benefit but why even bother? The negative, the attitude is always pessimistic and that's literally what I see time and time again in the black pill community, which is why I think the black pill community is not doing these autistic, socially awkward guys any favors. It's just basically reinforcing their bad negative assumptions versus I think that's like the actually the opposite of what you wanna do. You wanna basically be like, hey, listen, man, no, like you can definitely get a lot better. There's still hope for you. Get out, stop this pessimistic victim mindset and that type of thinking and start being a lot more positive and optimistic and take more action, right? But that's not what the black pill community is doing. It's doing the opposite of that. And so that's why I see that in the black pill community very few guys are actually getting better. It's just like you would join the black pill community and then all you do is just complain and cope. You never like actually leave the black pill community. You never like actually like level your way out of it and like actually improve your situation in life. You just keep staying in this like negative, vicious victim cycle. But most people do, most people do level out of it, you know, for one reason or another.  Well, I've seen like, to kind of answer your point, I've seen, I've had like a lot of, I've don't have a lot of clients and I've seen a lot of case studies. And when I talk to someone who's like not in the black pill, someone who's like, you know, pretty optimistic and stuff like that, the attitude is totally different. They're like, hey, listen, dude, I know I'm fat right now.  And you give them instructions, they follow those instructions versus when I have a client, once in a blue moon when I have a black pill type of client, the attitude is always so defeatist and negative. It's like, dude, I don't think there's any point in trying, I don't even know why I'm doing this coaching call. It's just, I'm like, okay, dude, well you gotta do this. And this is like, is there really a point to this Alex? Like just the attitude to people could be at the same starting point, but their attitude is so different and their outcomes in a year or two years from now will be so different because one of them will do so much more work than the other one.  That makes it a different starting point. And that means that the people, you know, maybe give the person with that attitude another year and they might catch up, but you know, a lot of times people aren't ready to hear or receive messages of positivity. They are only in a place where they're just beginning to maybe express or contend with some of their negativity and they have a process. You know, they need to go through that for some time. Well, that's because positivity, if you're positive about that situation requires you to act, right? Oh, there's hope for me to actually do something about my life. Oh, well, that requires you to actually do things that are foreign to you, which are by definition going to be scary and you're going to have to start taking things and start doing things that your brain perceives as risky. Right? So it's scary and that's why it's actually having that negative outlook, it alleviates you from responsibility. It's a lot easier to say, hey, oh, well, the world is just fucked.  I can actually do something about it, right? So I don't really think that, hold on, QB, do you want to say something? Because you haven't. Yeah, I see you talking. Listen, right, okay, this is what I want to say. A lot of these dating coaches, they basically shame Black Pillars, all right? My channel is a positive Black Pill channel. I say, look, women are attracted to looks. You sometimes may need to go to a different territory to attract women based on your physical traits, okay? I had a Black Pillar, AML, Alphamel lifestyle. He was able to get a girlfriend in Mexico after being almost five years celibate, okay? So sometimes it's going to- Is that with a prostitute or no? No, that's not what a prostitute, okay? But that is something that you promote on your channel. You promote people going to third world countries and hooking up with prostitutes as a viable option, right? Well, again, there's some guys that- Yes or no? Answer the question, answer the question. Do you say that as a viable option, yes or no? I don't know if it has to do with the Black Pill. It does. It has a lot to do with the Black Pill right now. I can explain why. Answer the question, sir. So for some guys, they may not get the experience with a woman genuinely. Some guys are going to have to pay, all right? And let me tell you this. Prostitutes also deny men based on looks. So even if they pay, you may still be- They deny men based off of money, bro. Yeah, no prostitutes. Yeah, you're not hot enough. So take your money away. It doesn't happen. But go ahead. QB, once you're finished, can I go back to Nama and ask her a question regarding what she was saying about people getting into Black Pill because they're depressed?  Nama, don't you think that's kind of enabling though? Once people let's say I'm depressed, so I'm going to go into a very toxic mindset. Of course, like I'm not a therapist. I don't know the, and I don't know much about depression, but don't you think that's kind of like enabling people to go into a deeper hole? Yeah, I mean, I do. Just to be fair, I think that it often, it can keep people stuck and it can serve as a crutch.  I think that at a certain point, and everybody's coming from a very different place, that is the most kind of community that someone has when they find it, you know? The problem Nama is that they would be so much better off if that community didn't even exist, and they found a different community, like a Jim Maxson community or even the Red Pill community or any literally any other type of community, because there's a saying you're the average of the five people you hang out with.  So why would you improve?  Your mind doesn't even see the other type of, you know, content. So yeah, like these guys are being like, messed over by this community. That's kind of cuddles them and gives them this basically very pessimistic type of attitude. Yeah, I think this is important to make sure that, so Vanta and QB, do you guys agree? I guess you guys both answered individually, obviously. Do you guys agree that the Black Pill is inherently negative? Yes or no? No, it's not negative. Okay. I'm going to hear Vanta's. But I agree that the Black Pill is inherently negative. It's certainly not positive. I'll give you that. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a positive space, but negative, it seems to more be neutral, right? So there are positive aspects and negative aspects. Why is it called Black Pill? Because... Why is it why? We don't like the Black Pill. No, no, seriously. Why is it called Black Pill? Well, the idea is...  Yeah, yeah. I'll answer this more genuinely here. So the idea of why it's called Black Pill probably is because the idea of the Black Pill, yes, I agree they are more pessimistic, right? They are more like conducive on like a mutable trace like your looks and to an extent like your mental condition stuff. I'll 100% agree, but when we take it into account and acknowledge these factors, that means that we can actually like not necessarily improve on them, what we can sometimes obviously, but we can make workarounds to like work with these people and help them in their own ways. A good example of this would be like you're talking a lot about like depression and negative thinking. So that's generally associated with like neuroticism, which is one of like the big five personality traits. And when it comes to the big five personality traits, they are like extremely inflexible, right? The only way you can really change them is like mushrooms, right? LSD, you got like take some drugs if you really want to change a big five, right? Generally, once you get on policy Asia, I think it's 18 or 20, they don't really change or maybe 25, they don't really change whatsoever. So a lot of these guys, they're just neurotic, right? They're neurotic and their neuroticism is immutable. So they come to us, right? Because it might be, do you ever find it that like you're around people and then they're just too happy? I don't know how to say it, like they're just overly excessively like excited. Like a fake honest? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like a manic depressive type of thing? I've seen that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I feel like even though this isn't how I see it, right? But I feel like a lot of black girls might go into red pill spaces and see like all of these ideas of like being like uber optimistic, anything can happen, believe more, achieve more, do whatever you can. You can do anything, right? It's like super unrealistic because to an extent, like you can't do anything, right? Like there are some set limits which are on yourself, which you cannot surpass, right? Everybody has like a limit. Of course, it's more like diminishing returns, right? So you go up and then it kind of cuts off at the top with like a lot of things, right? So they go into these communities, they see that they're preaching like this exponential growth. You keep going and you'll increase exponentially, right? And then they come into the black pill, then they see the other extreme, right? Where it's like it's over, done, you're finished, it's over, right? And then they see that and then they resonate more with that idea. However, when you get to the core of both ideas, both ideas are not this, the red pill isn't this exponential growth idea. You get more into it and then you see like, okay, so there's a tempered approach here, okay? So it's not that I can just improve exponentially. It's like I can improve to this certain point and this certain point is highly above where I'm at now. And then when you get into the deeper reaches of the black pill, it's the exact same.  You see people posting their faces on the black pill servers and then they tell people different improvements, change your hair up. You see people posting their physique. Do this, so I personally like, okay, do this sort of split. You want to grow this body part, do this stuff like that. When you just see this super superficial idea of both the black pill and the red pill, you get this idea, which is just like extremely saturated and extremely untrue from like the people who actually in these communities, most of the black pill and most of the red pill is extremely like, well, it's a somewhat tempered idea, tempered and reasonable and like realistic idea of growth, right? So I would say to the point before when you said I was an extreme, I wasn't an extreme black pillar. It's because you bring on any extreme black pillar, two minutes in, the arguments are completely done. They're done. Nothing because there's no evidence that you can't make a point that 100% of everything is genetic. It's impossible. There's no studies you can put up. No one's going to believe you have total data. QB is going to say it's 100% genetic. Like QB believes game is 0%. Okay. Oh, okay. Maybe there's one. Maybe there's one. You're just describing QB there. Hold on. First of all, again, you know, guys, all we're saying with the black pill is there are limitations, okay? You can only, you know, look smacked so much. You can only money max so much. You can only improve your status so much. But the key element is all right. If you're still not able to have success with women, life is not over. You just might have to go a different route, you know, not all men are created equal. So it's identifying the evidence and then going your way to have success with women. Period. QB, but for the record, do you think game doesn't exist? That was your position last time you debated me. Have you changed your position? Yeah. You still think game doesn't exist? Game doesn't exist? Not at all. There you go, Launter. Here's an example. Cannot verbally manipulate a woman for attraction. Right. For attraction, unless she is physically attracted to you, this is not going to work. I don't know. I can't tell you that.  No, that's real. Scientific studies, anything like that? If you go out to anywhere in Vegas, OK, would you see a 300 pound guy run game on a nine or 10? Nine times. I literally said at the beginning of the stream that this is the extremism. I don't know I don't know keep you. I don't know about 300 pound guy, but maybe a 500 pound guy, you know Can you get a nine with gay a guy that's an Average five an average story that you like to call. Can he get an eight or nine with game? Guy with game can you get a hot girl? Yeah Okay, I have to to run Oh It was a pleasure being here Qb Qb hono hono So you're making the claim that an average looking guy cannot end up without all of our guests are linked in the description Highly encourage you Nama's link is down there right now That includes at the podcast as well as everybody else's link and thanks so much for being with us Nama. Have a great night Go ahead Kevin with your question You're muted. Yeah, so so Qb you said that a five Would a five be able to hook up with a nine, right? Yeah, are you making the claim that that just couldn't happen? No, that cannot happen. I cannot really an average looking guy cannot hook up with a hot girl No, he can't Dude if a girl I have to do you just made a blanket statement All I have to do is show you the one average looking guy that has one hot girl And then you just debunked yourself immediately you understand that right? I'm asking you Kevin with game with game can a five hook up with a nine with game Yes Does it mean that it's automatically going to happen? No, but can it happen? Yes I'm not making an absolute claim that that What makes that possible because if that's the case again We wouldn't have guys that are struggling with women in this community Okay Or eight or nine are there differing levels? Wait Alice one thing real quickly game is like sales right? Do you agree that there's some people who are good at sales and some people who are bad at sales?  No, you don't have a product that every woman wants. Okay, so they're Game is not like sales. There's a guy that can walk in a room and that can literally attract every girl that's in there All right, you have a product everyone wants you don't need sales You don't need sales people people just buy it the entire point of sales is to convince people to buy your product If a guy can walk in a room and attract every girl in the room. He's not selling anything. He's just Being presently there and that attraction is based on his physical looks is that not Kevin Okay, so you're saying there's no way there's no way a five could hook up with an eight Okay, so I can give a very easy count example. Let's take my ex-girlfriend Maybe I'm talking about her her husband He was like literally a three or four right and I would say that check was pretty much an eight So there we go. That's one count example right place right time right circumstances They hooked up. He was really good in bed apparently great listener and they stayed together So right so like there are count examples to it. Is it less like they happen? Yes But can it happen? Absolutely. Can and it does happen. It just doesn't happen very often. I Mean QB. I have I have a question You don't take into account chemistry Friendship feelings you have you may have for the person that you're getting to know I understand that on dating apps. It's a completely different dynamic But in real life you meet someone you talk to them and you have great chemistry with that person chemistry It's also a huge important factor that you're you're not taking into account Maybe they don't believe in chemistry Wait, hold on. Let me answer Alex. I gotta answer Right so chemistry doesn't matter but again the girl is not gonna be having chemistry to a guy that she doesn't find the track So in order to happens it happens a lot I mean a month like it's happened to me where I had great chemistry with a guy who objectively was not my type whatsoever And I had premise with guy was the ball was the five foot one or was he 300 pounds was he Not my type not my type at all. He was an attractive guy You have to give like some physical excuses of this guy so we can like better Make a picture of him in our heads he was He was a little bit chubby he was kind of I just don't want to give it too much away, but he was not attractive to me and for most people who I've ever showed him pictures that were like dude. What is wrong with you? Are you on drugs? He's so attractive I'm sorry QB you keep cutting out man. We can't hear you QB if you could turn off your camera. I only asked just because it usually helps the audio come through more smoothly Let's go full black girl style. No, no Yeah, yeah Good it's still kind of iffy though I don't know if you're like you got a wife by max bro.  Like how would you account for that situation there? Hold on Alex. I'm sorry. I want I want him to respond to that what Natty just said. I think this is really important Yeah, it's it's it's 10. It's the same situation But I think especially since we have like an actual real life girl here, which is very rare as a man is here Oh Is she a hologram is she real so real life girl said that she has been in a relationship With a guy that she did not find physically attractive, but she found chemistry with him and QB I'm curious what your rebuttal is to that. Oh, she just lying or what? No, no, no, no, no So were you romantically into this guy or was this like I was highly into the know I was highly into this guy highly Very I Okay, very It's very awkward because my boyfriend it's on this funnel, but I don't give a shit invested into this very But my whole point is there were no physical interests and this guy was So ever but you guys still had a romantic chemistry, correct? Like and what I mean romantic You know, you know, I'm gonna be very respectful on this panel, but you were you know intimate with him I was very into this guy very very and I Objectively I knew he was not very attractive, but I didn't see him that way in my eyes. He was attractive Now that the infatuation has gone I can see that he's really not an attractive guy But I was very very attracted to this guy because the chemistry was there and the chemistry was so intense that Now that the chemistry it's gone Um Yeah, like I can honestly say the guy's ugly, okay, but my question still is a lot of woman What's your question right? Yeah, but my questions My question still is You guys were on an intimate level like boyfriend and girlfriend. Is that correct? No, we were not dating because he lived in another country, but there was that There were those feelings for each other's worth there But no, we did not have the labels and it's not because I didn't want to like I don't want to go into details as to why it didn't happen but So to me like I'm gonna be honest this kind of sounds like a guy that was more of an emotional tampon than an actual physical chemistry and we all know in this space where there are women that You know, they'll call they'll call guys up and be in the friend zone and there's an emotional connection But not a physical connection That's what this sounds like But he was not on the friend zone if things didn't happen it wasn't because I didn't want them to happen It was because he did not want them to happen So He was going through some issues he lived in another country. He was just getting a divorce He's like why I got pregnant with their child So he was not in the mindset to start a new relationship But if I did not have a relationship with him it wasn't it was not because I did not want to it was because he did not want to Yeah, so so you were very Okay, so I was very much attracted to him not on a physical level like I like I knew he was not My type but I was attracted to him in a chemistry type of level in a very romantic way and I was very into his personality The point is she was down to bang him in data basically Right. So so the thing is you guys were never on a like physical intimate level, correct We kind of were yes So let's see there yes I mean like I'm not going to go into details. I want to be respectful of my private life But I'm telling you I'm telling you that that the chemistry it was not because I friend zone the guy if things were not able to move forward to the next level with the guy It wasn't because of me. It was because of him and it was objectively Let me not very attractive I'm like that. Okay. Let me have examples from friends of mine from other girls who date guys who they're not objectively very attracted to them But they have a you don't know what See and again, I still do disagree because it's like if you were really physically into him, okay, like how you say that you were I mean, you know Chemistry wise, okay I would have gone in his head and be like hey, have a really good relationship with him I'm not going to go into details I'm not going to go into details I'm not going to go into details I'm not going to go into details I would have gone in his head and be like hey have a relationship with him with me He was getting out of divorce and shit and he had like some So the most the whole point like if he didn't want to have a She she want to have a relationship with Okay, so QB are you saying that if one of the parties does not want to take things farther the other person It's not entitled to have feelings or be attracted to the other person Because attraction can be one way Right. Oh, yeah, and most of the yeah attraction can be one way My point where I'm the point I'm trying to get at you know, it sounds like This guy was you know into you but it doesn't seem like there was like a real physical Intimate level where you guys were like boyfriend and girlfriend And then you're telling me that he didn't want that because he was coming out of the divorce And normally when guys come out of relationship for most dudes They're they're seeking the next girl to be in a relationship with He was having a kid with his baby mama drama different country. There's many reasons. There's parts of the story that you don't know But on my part there was that want Right Let's just use a different example. That's a little cleaner. Let's just use my ex as a situation You know who I'm talking about. Okay. Okay, seven or five eight married a guy who's like a three or four Okay, how would you account for that? Okay? Well, she Married him for various reasons, you know that he has resources that he's won He had no money He was she was broken So you're telling this Your the chick was broke or he was broke They were both broke Actually, she came from like a decent family, but he was broke yet. He had nothing at the time Okay, so he had nothing and he's a three He's like a three or four. Yeah, he's very ugly guy now. He has seen it. Okay, and and they're They're they're married and they're still together, correct. They were married for like 10 years. No, they got divorced 10 years later. Okay. Well Well, you know again, it's You know guys can have that emotional Connection for 10 year when a girl is able to find a better option They usually leave It can be 10 years. It can be five years. It can be one year, you know But but it's just your turn She left she left him because it's just your turn until she can find a better option That's not why she left him though.  She's actually still single right now It's because again one he hit her a few times and two he just played a video games all day So that's that's not true at all that she found a better option I mean for a girl that's attractive to be with a guy That's a three or four with no money and beat center and plays video games I mean, that's just a rare outlier Alex like that is not the normal He didn't beat her when they first started dating it happened much later on the relationship But the reason they the reason that he did together is because he was right place right time He was friends with her for he was friends with her for a period of time. She just got out of a nasty breakup He was right place right time apparently he was amazing in bed So those are all the factors and she backwards rationalized that you know, she was in love with him And I think she probably was in love with him for a significant period of time. So, yeah So like that's you're saying look at that's an extreme ally of fine But your earlier statement was that there's no way no way that a girl who's an a can be with a guy who's a five And I just gave your counter example. You're saying it's outlier. Well, yeah outliers happen all the time Yeah, if I could I try and respond to this for a bit So generally when it comes to like when it comes to like any sort of like pseudo psychological or like relationship based data Nothing is ever going to be like streamlined a hundred cent correlation. There's a straight line here like that, right? It's always going to be there's going to be outliers like outliers But there's going to be a general trend right and generally when we like look at this stuff We should look more at the general trend and we shouldn't say like this is impossible This is never going to happen at the nine is never going to be with like the two or whatever It's going to be like that So I think we should like stick more to the idea that like generally there's an idea that there's looks matches between like Men and women that's like more the rule if anything the rule would be data shows that the rule is more that like Women will they like slightly more attractive men because of like The men are somewhat older. They're more like accomplishing different stuff like that right on average That's generally how it seems to be I think like saying the stuff can never happen Or this is impossible when it comes to data where there's 8 billion people on the planet Yeah, that's why I like we're used to black pillars like QB who have like, you know Three working brain cells and we're not used to people like you who are actually pretty smart and we'll spoken Reasonable so I just don't think it works.  Okay. Yeah, so I think like these extreme Well, let's not call extreme. Let's say like these absolutist ideas right that everything's one way everything's another way You like hold them up to any level of scrutiny and then they just fall apart for anything right You take this to politics. You take this to religion.  We need to move on to our second Kevin. That's a quick statement. James I think we need to take Vonta and move him to our side of the screen because he's like I'm not ready. Well I put him in like the middle or something. I think it's like QB here, Alex, Maddie and us here and then all around right now. You just directly contradicted QB's argument so yeah we're in full agreement with what you just said. So really quickly. I want to give QB a good chance to respond just because I hope to have equal numbers of Blackpill and non-Black people on tonight. And so if you are Blackpilled I am sorry. My, basically last I remembered Nama was more Blackpilled but she seems to have kind of moved a little bit more centrist relative to the last time that we hosted her or at least that's I think what happened. But based. I might be wrong about that. I might have misunderstood and Nama may have been non-Blackpilled all along in which case my apologies to Nama. But I do want to make sure that the Blackpill is fairly, I want to give you plenty of time QB in case you feel like you're a little bit cornered as like I said I tried to get equal numbers but QB go ahead. I understand this is shaming tactics and insults, you know, because I'm going to be honest. When it comes to my channel and what I promote, I give Blackpillers options. I say look, you can go to a different country, you can get the results that you want, and it's still based on your physical presence. I don't want to make this prove any type of game and analogy because I've been to foreign countries, I've been to nightclubs across the whole United States, okay. Now I've literally hooked up with women without even saying a word. It's just, you know, me being 6'4", having someone have a lean build, women find that attractive. Okay, I don't have. No one's saying they don't. You're hooking up with a few girls here and there with extreme ease and luck does not just prove that game exists. That's such a dis-genuine argument. Sure, everyone understands that being 6'4", is attractive. QB, we all know that you're just like the most handsome man on the planet, clearly. So, wait, because I think it's important. You're struggling with your dating, and let's be honest, you're shy with women and you can't tell your audience that. You keep breaking up. We can't hear you. Fair point. Kevin is right. It is a little bit hard to hear you. I just want to, if you're able to either move closer to your mic or it might be the connection still, which is surprising because usually audio is like a pretty easy trick. So it might just be moving closer to the mic. Okay, does this sound a lot better? Yes, it does sound a lot better. Yeah, it does, yeah. Okay, I'm literally hugging the mic. Okay, so my point is, I got to be honest, a lot of these red pill dating coaches, they're also struggling with women, but yet advising men to learn game, and we're not seeing the results from themselves. And Kevin, you're a prime example of that. You're shy to talk with women. So your entire argument is that Kevin struggles with girls, really? That's your argument? That's the truth. Okay, so how do you explain, when I go on the speed dating show on Alex's channel, which surprisingly you haven't done at all QB, that I've done well every single time.  Okay, so first of all, speed dating, and again, is entertaining, but unfortunately, hold on. Let me say what I have to say. Both people are acting. The girl is acting, you're acting. So it's not like a real face-to-face encounter. So it doesn't count. If you go online and date a girl online, there's no acting.  It's going to happen. But with this virtual dating acting, and that's the truth. So are they acting when they say that they... Yeah, say that again. Alex, sorry.  So you should get positive reactions. I appreciate the offer, but I'm going to have to respectfully decline because it's acting. It doesn't approve anything. I would like to see Kevin go to a nightclub, go to a bar, and run game. QB, I literally had a video on my channel. I literally have a video of my channel of me approaching a girl going on an instant date with both her and her mom, and then I meet up with her later that night.  Therefore, it didn't happen. There goes to the extreme. You always do this, Kevin. That's why no one respects you in the Manusphere, including your ex-buddy. Well, the Manusphere is mostly trash, so I don't want them to respect me. Why would I want people I don't respect to respect me? Hold on. Hold on, Kevin. One thing that I will give Alex credit, we may disagree on game, but at least the man can show that he has a girlfriend. It's like going to a restaurant.  Nothing. I'm sorry. Who cares? That's what I sell a product on. That's what you go to my channel. It says philosophy, fitness, self-development. Let's just assume for argument's sake that Kevin is the biggest instill in the world. He has never even seen a girl. That still doesn't prove or disprove anything. That has nothing to do with a bearing. Kevin could be totally legit or the biggest fraud. It has nothing to do with whether the black pill is real or not. Well, he disagrees with the black pill, Alex, and I'm sorry. He's promoting game and the white pill. I don't even know if he promotes the white pill anymore. But the point is, okay, I will say one thing, okay, and you guys can record to me for this. Alright, if you're socially awkward, and this has nothing to do with a game, but this has to do with a personality disorder, that is a looks killer right there. Okay, so that game exists then, so that looks aren't the only thing. If you're socially autistic and you can change it and become better at being socially adept, then you will be do better in your dating life. That's literally what you just debunked the entire black pill. Congratulations. Actually, I think QB is on our side now. No, see, here you go with these antics, bro.  No, you guys, I think we're super derailed. I think it's because we come like QB and Kevin's. So should we just try to go back on track? Yeah, let's get back on track. Okay, QB. I knew this was going to devolve into a debate about Kevin's receipts, but I think it's totally relevant to the point. Keep getting back on track. Okay, so you basically disagree with Vonta when he says that we can't talk in absolutes. Anything could happen. So of course, you can have a guy who's a five being with a girl who's an eight. You're just agreeing with that position. You're saying it cannot happen. Is that correct? Or I'm trying to understand your argument. Well, right, right. So Vonta agree that, you know, we can't talk in absolutes. You know, there's, there's where outliers, but for the majority, for the majority of men that are fives or below the odds of them being with an attractive women are very, very slim to nut. And if game can fix that, well, then you will see more guys, you know, hooking up with attractive women. And we wouldn't be having this issue. We wouldn't be really having this discussion today. If that's, if men are capable of doing that. Pickup, the pickup community is like 0.0001% of men. So even if every single guy in the pickup community was as awesome as me, that still wouldn't even make a dent in the overall trends because it's such a small community. Like such few people know about it. So no, that's not really true. Well, it's also that game is, sorry, this is important game is it's not game isn't something that it's not like, it's not like a master ball where you just throw it at a girl and then you, you have 100% success rate. Right. It's like, it's, it's a technique and there's levels to it. There's some guys that have good games, some guys that have bad game and there's a whole spectrum of it from there. So it's not like this, like, you know, again, like I said, for those of you who understand. You would agree. Go ahead. But Kevin, you, you are, you agree that looks plays a role and looks matter. So before you can either be entered into the game. Right. It's the most important. So before you can enter into the game, you got to be drafted on the team. If you're not selecting on the team, then how can you participate in the game? No, I agree, but I just think that the threshold of looks is lower than what you think it is. So a lot of, hold on, a lot of men are not even being selected on the team. How do they get on the team when there's a looks requirement? Okay, so I think I think I found the point of contention between us. I mean, there's a lot more, but this is, I think the looks requirement is way lower than you think. And I think it's, it's low enough where people can achieve it or the vast majority of guys can achieve it through looks maxing. Well, in the game with enough looks maxing, I agree with that. Unless you're like duper, duper short, or you have a severe disability. Yeah, I think you can enter that playing field. Okay, let's use myself as an example. I want to give a two minute warning. So we do have to go to Q&A pretty quick here, but I'll give you a chance, Alex. Okay, go ahead. One of the things you respect about me is the fact that I show receipts. Okay, fair enough. How would you account for the fact that for the vast majority of my life, I had no receipts because I was getting no girls. So from the age of, I don't know when did I hit puberty around 13 to the age of maybe 22? I was getting no girls. I was going out and going through way more volume than them. Now I was going to party after party after party and just striking out time and time again. My looks have been pretty much the same since I hit puberty, right? So what has changed between me when I was 19 and me now? What's the difference? Do you think? How do you account for that massive difference in receipts? Right. So I think you understand attraction. I think you understand that throughout time you experienced rejection, but now instead of maybe approaching every girl, you approach a girl that finds you attractive. So from there, you will have more success.  But I was going out just to paint the picture. I was going out like five, six days a week doing massive amounts of approaches. Now I barely do any approaches yet I get way more results. It's not that I've just gotten better choosing targets. There's something else that must have changed. Well, again, I for back to go ahead. Yeah, I want to just talk to you, Blackfeeler to Blackfeeler here, because I feel like we can we can get some common ground on our ideas here.  Do you believe that she'll give you the time of day? Or do you believe that she'll kind of just like brush you off and then just walk away, try and get away as quickly as possible? Yeah. She's going to slam the door and tell you to get away if she's not attracted to you. 10 times out of 10 or is that just what's going to happen most of the time? 99.9%. Okay, so, okay, I just disagree. Generally, when I go up and speak to people, irrespective, maybe I just have like a kind smile or something, I don't know. But generally, when I go up and speak to people, like I speak to them, they speak to me, you know, we're pretty cool, right? I've never had it where like I'm going up to speak to anyone and then they just kind of like, just like go away just kind of like slap the door in my face. That just doesn't happen to me personally. I don't know, maybe that's like a common experience. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly one of the issues I have with the Blackbill community.  Maybe once in the blue moon, like in my whole pickup career of approaching tens of thousands of girls, I maybe have that happen twice, twice out of like 20,000 girls. So it is extremely, extremely rare, but the Blackbill community makes it out like that's happening like pretty much every time when you're not attracted, which is not the case. I agree with you. That's not actually happening. Most people are pretty nice and respectful, even if they're not sexually attracted to you. Well, I would say it's more dangerous, right? Like imagine your woman, maybe you're alone and then some man comes up and tries to speak to you and then you're hostile to the guy, right? Like that is not what you want to be doing, at least. And you want to be like cordial at least if nothing else, right? I just, I see that happening every now and again. Very, very, very, very rarely. I see like a TikTok of like some guy who like tries to post something.  I want to give you the last word, we're going to Q&A after that. Yeah, yeah, no worries. So I still, you know, kind of someone answering Alex's question, I think he got experience over time dealing with rejection, but he improved in his looks. Alex, you do also take TRT, correct? You had a problem? Okay. But just to clarify, not on TRT when I was 28, I was already very good with girls by the time I was 28. I was very solid with girls by the time I was 25. So three years before, three or four years before TRT, I was already doing really well. Okay, okay. So thank you for clarifying. You matured as a man by 25, because that's when most men pretty much mature, you know, somewhat to their prime, and you were able to get a girlfriend. Okay. Now, again, a lot of guys that are, you know, maybe not in their prime and that can improve their body physically, that's going to make them more attractive to women. And all I'm saying is, again, that these are the key elements when it comes to attraction. The woman has to find you attractive before anything else can happen, before any chemistry, before any social engagement, her feeling comfortable with you, that attraction has to initially be there. And that attraction cannot be influenced based on verbal seduction. I do want to give them the last word just because, as I promised, is there were fewer black people, black pill people here than I thought tonight. So I do want to jump into the Q&A unless it's something about, unless you're clarifying a personal thing. Can I just... Oh, sorry. Can I say it really, really quick? QB, how old are you? I'm in my mid 30s. Okay. I'm 19. The last thing I just want to very quickly add on this is it wasn't like I went from being an incel to having a girlfriend. There was a whole bunch of girls that hooked up with in between. And I think the big missing piece that you're missing is like, I was always pretty slightly above average looking.  I was awkward. I had low self esteem. I didn't know what to do when I got girl back to my place. That's what's different between me back then and me now. That's what's changed. It's not me maturing. Sure, maybe that played a little bit of a role. It's largely the fact that I was really bad with social dynamics now or not. And that's why I was able to go from having like close to no sex to having a lot of sex, right? That's the big factor that's changed. I think it's like pretty crazy not to acknowledge that, but that's like the missing piece here. Any short and pithy last words, QB? The black pill is never done with you. Looks, money, status. And again, when women find you attractive, you don't have to do any manipulative tactics to get their desire. Those are like really my last final words so you can go to Q&A. This one coming in from, do appreciate it. Folks, want to say by the way, if it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate, we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science, religion and politics. We hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from, whether you be black pill, red pill, whatever pill, we're glad you're here. We're going to jump into these questions. By the way, friendly reminder, 100% of the Super Chats tonight are going to worldwide orphans. So orphans across the world are helped by this organization. It's a great organization with a great charity watchdog rating as we always make sure that any of the charities that we give our stream Super Chats to are legit. And we always post the receipts. So keep an eye out on the Modern Day Debate YouTube social tab. We'll put the receipt there as we want to have these charity streams be as transparent as possible. So I'm going to just use the restroom real quick. You got it. Quani Upstate says there are many women of all levels and classes and I have seen even total losers living in trailers get married and have kids. So don't tell me some men can't find women. I think that's for our black pill friends. So yeah, so this will be generally seen as a statistical anomaly. You see it every now and again, but it's generally not the norm. It's not the rule for any four women dating like really for women dating men who are much more attractive than them and for men dating women who are much more attractive than them. Generally what seems to happen is people of equal attractiveness, equal looks level seem to date at that looks level. Obviously you see outliers. Obviously you see them and you and you'll perceive them more because you just see a random couple. You don't think anything about it, but you see like some five foot guy with some like with Amazonian goddess. You're going to be like, wow, look at that. And you're going to remember that. It's going to be like in build that's going to stick in your brain, right? So I think in large part that is the reason because it's kind of like when we see outliers is kind of like, wow, okay, I'm going to remember this, you know, but generally, I do think that sometimes this is somewhat a factor of luck. So when it comes to a lot of luck factors, we can't make descriptive claims around them, because we can't like say, oh, just be more lucky like, you know, grab like a whole shoe like pick some four leaf clovers and then they go. A lot of the times when it comes to these outliers that purely based on like luck, luck factors, which is why I don't really like hold too much weight to them because we can't pay any prescriptive prescriptive claims or we can't tell people what to do in order to achieve. You got it. And also want to ask curiosity. Oh, wait, or QB, if you want to respond, I wouldn't give you a chance. Yeah. You know, again, I agree with Vonys on that, you know, there are a few outliers there. But you know, what I really want to mention is, is very important that whether a guy is red pill or black pill. He sure already visually look at the girl and tell if she's physically attractive to him or not. You're saying this has happened to me throughout my whole entire. Oh, go ahead, Alex. No, I was just asking, are you saying that a guy should know that they're attracted to the girl before they approach her? I mean, I think that's like kind of. No, no, no, no. He used to know before even approaching her or saying anything that the girl is physically attracted to him. Oh, I'll give. Yeah, you're talking about. Let me give this example. Right. Let me give a prime example really quick. So, you know, checking into a hotel is a great example. The hostess, I can already look and tell that this girl likes me based on the way she smiles, certain gestures that she does with her body, you know, how extra friendly she is. And there's nothing that I have to do. You know what I'm saying? It's literally, hey, you know, after work, do you want to come by and keep in company type of deal? So that's one example. Another example is, you know, when you meet a girl, let's just say your boy is dating a girl, you meet one of the friends and the friend is very receptive to you in terms of her greeting. That's another way to tell that a woman is attracted to you. So these factors are very, very important before, you know, that a guy must understand when it comes to female attraction. Let me respond to that. We have a ton of questions, so I actually kind of want to move forward just because that one I wasn't sure. Thank you very much.  No, simply. So generally, if you're an unattractive woman, there will always be a man who is generally willing to at least hook up with you, maybe not date you. The dating problem for women is actually a somewhat genuine issue. I haven't looked too much into it, but what I've seen from only anecdotal data, it seems that women control the access to sexual relationships and hookups and then men control the access to long term dating and dating relationships, right? So when it comes to, for example, like fem cells is being like a big topic, fem cells don't really exist, right?  I think Alex, you've done like some data, some Tinder experiments on this and you found like that. That's near enough understand the case. I saw this experiment. It was really, really interesting. Someone put a picture of food, just food on the Tinder profile and they said sex is female and they saw how many men swiped on it. And they go like the bachelorette was like as high as like an average looking man. Must have been really good food. I put on a wig and a fake tits and I created a profile that it's a girl and I got 60 matches or something in like 24 hours.  That's what it's kind of crass, but the implication is, the implication is, is that I've been on some panel song about it. The implication is that women will constantly just get like pumped and dumped, I guess.  They'll have a bunch of one night stands. They want to have a relationship, but they can't have it. So that's kind of the female equivalent of being, I guess, a femcel. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'll say that's definitely like a real problem which has some like pre-negative implications.  It might be kind of like self-deprecating. You might be like, okay, what is there something wrong with me? Is it like, is it on my looks? All I have is like, that can kind of be sort of like mess up your brain a bit. You got to thank you very much for this question. Coming in from Lord Corporal says, thanks for caring about your chat. Here's a little something for your charity. Keep up the great work. Thanks for your support and glad to have you. Like I said, no matter what walk of life you're from, thanks for being with us. Sunflower says, First step of being successful with women is having never looked into the Blackpill subreddit in the first place. Is this true? Is there some sort of self-perpetuating or some sort of vicious cycle down there? I do agree. I think one of the reasons why people fall into this, why they're so unappealing, it's because no one wants to be with someone who has low self-esteem. It's not the same to be liked by someone who loves themselves and who think they're the shed, than by someone who think they are with this victim mentality and that they're just a victim of the status quo. So I completely agree. Yeah, I agree. I don't know any. I think UB is probably does the best in terms of girls out of any Blackpillar I know, but I still think that like, I think it could be a lot higher, meaning like, I don't know any Blackpillers who are like crushing it with the ladies. Like, I know like, I think you are actually an outlier QB because most of them are like getting close to zero sex if not zero sex. So yeah, most of the community is not doing the work with girls. QB? Right. Well, I want to comment on that really quick. I will admit that most Blackpill channels are doomer channels, including that guy that used to be cool with back in the day. I'm not going to mention his name. That is a doomer channel. Okay. That is a doomer channel. So when a Blackpillar comes across QB's channel, yes, they see the success. You know, they see the receipts, they see the women, but I make a very big disclaimer saying, look, look still matter. And just because you see me having the success does not necessarily mean that you'll have the same success as well. When you're acknowledging that 95% of the community is fairly negative and most of those guys are having like zero success with girls, right? I mean, yeah, I can't really say too much on this point, I suppose, because I can't really like say being part of them. I would say like most Blackpillers are in this community because of like their interactions with women rather than like them being in this community and then because they're in this community, they have bad interactions with women. So for example, like me, like I'm an incel, right? But I don't, how can I put this? I was an incel long before I knew what incel even was, right? I was an incel before I knew what Blackpill was, before I knew about any of this stuff, right? And I wouldn't say it perpetuated these ideas of like, okay, I'm an incel, it's done for me, it's over. I'm just going to like dig my own grave and you know, lie down for a bit. No, that wasn't like the idea. How I saw it more was, okay, so there are these facts, these immutable characteristics which some people have, some people don't have them. And for large part, these are how people get into like mating and dating, get into relationships, right? Okay, so what can I change about myself, which isn't immutable? Okay, I can change this, this, this. Okay, if I do this for this amount of time, then maybe, you know, I can ascend. I can become an adonis, that's what people say. I was going to say this, if anybody, if I ever had to put a seal of approval on any Blackpill or just based on what Vanta said, he'd be it. If you're saying the solution is fitness and to try, dude, I'm all for it. I'm a personal trainer, so that's kind of like. But I will say this, Vanta does not have to be an insult. If you, like, I will happily help you for free. If you follow my instructions, I can probably get you laid in 30 days. Why would you be mad at that? Don't you want to see? Yeah, I will not charge you one single penny. Like, I'll literally do this out of the context of my heart.  I live in the UK. I live in like London, London area. Easy. We'll jump to this next question. Okay. I'll be really quick. I like the enthusiasm.  I'm 19 just before. Oh, you're 19. So he has plenty of time to eventually find a girlfriend or attract, you know, desirable women with self improvement. And I'm just going to leave it at that. So I'm saying it doesn't have to be a lot of time.  So we don't have to like wait for a long period of time. This one coming in from do appreciate your question. Flamie says, do you affirm that quote, just be yourself on quote advice doesn't work if you happen to be the wrong person? Yes, I agree with that. I feel like everybody agrees with that. That's kind of like universal. Yeah. Everybody on this panel.   You know, no one likes to be around those people. Like if you have a bad personality and you're trying to get laid, trying to get a relationship, whatever it may be, being yourself isn't going to work. I think I think generally, there's like a level which you can be at of like, I don't know, of, I don't know, of niceness, you know, of like acceptability. And then you can deviate a bit from that. So let's say like you're fairly kind person, but like you're a bit edgy every now and again, people can tolerate that people are fine with that.  But you know, like generally you're on the right person, people can generally deal with that. It seems to be that instead of having like this one idea that like there's this personality which you should stick to, which is like your innate personality. It seems to be like generally in like Western society. There's this like, there's a higher and lower bracket of what's acceptable like personality characteristics. And as long as you fall like within the within that paradigm, you seem to be fine. The advice that I give guys on regarding this topic is you should focus on self development to the point where one day just be yourself actually becomes good advice. Because for the vast majority of guys, it's not good advice, but you can get to the point focusing on self development, self improvement where it actually does become good advice. And that's sort of the goal. You got it. But hold on, Kevin, you're okay. Okay, we can move on. We can move on. As long as there wasn't a personal attack, probably just the personal attack. He's very predictable. No, it's not a personal attack, but hold on. I'll say really quick, you're being yourself, but you're not getting the results that you want, man. So how are you talking? How do you know that? How do you know what results I want? It's the truth. It's the facts. Wait, this just seems like a personal attack. Yeah, that's literally all it is.  And here it is. It's not a personal attack though. This one from Bilal. Thank you very much. This question to the Black Pillars. I'm autistic, overweight and socially awkward, but I'm married to the best woman ever. Aren't I a counter example of the Black Pill? No, he's an outlier. It happens, but it's rare. I wouldn't say like, I wouldn't want to like undermine your experience and say like, oh, you didn't work hard. Maybe you improve yourself like a lot. You say you're overweight, so I don't really, I can't say to what level of self-improvement you did. But I would say when it comes to these outlier cases, again, because they are outliers, they're mainly luck based. You don't see a lot of like autistic, overweight men that was like very attractive women. Generally, you don't see that. So when it comes to these outlier cases, because you can't make any prescriptive claims behind that, you can't tell somebody to do X, Y and Z in order to achieve this aim. Because of that, I can't really do anything with it, right? So it's good for you. Great, but I can't really do anything with it. I would agree with that. You can try to be like the outliers. You find out what the outliers are doing and mimic that. Like why not like try to be like the outliers? Like for example, if I got diagnosed with a disease that has a 95% mortality rate, I wouldn't be like, well, I guess I'm dead. I'm gonna find out how did those 5% survive and try to mimic that, right? So I would say like, why not try to be like the outliers? Yeah, yeah, I would agree with what you're saying. But like, I don't know to like what level of self improvement this guy has done. He says he's overweight and I don't really want to like be reductionist to consider, oh, you're overweight. If we have himself improved, but like if you're saying like actively, okay, I'm overweight, then there's like a high chance that you like haven't necessarily worked on yourself to like a higher degree. I'm because of that. I would assume like I'm just gonna make a series of assumptions. This guy's probably fairly like social. He probably has a good social group. He probably met his wife through social circle. And he was probably, you know, he probably chat up with a lot of girls before she came along. Again, purely series of assumptions, but that would be something like that. So we can like, again, we'd have to like really talk to this guy, figure out what he did. But I would, I would theorize it would be something along the lines of that. Yeah, I think that would be like a fair assessment. But I think this is the topic which I'm like really interested in. So there's this idea. If you're like an average, if you're a significantly below average guy, and like nothing is really going for you. Let's say like you have Asperger's, you have your very unattractive guy and all this sort of stuff. It seems that if you get your face out to just like a whole load of people, I'm talking like an insane amount of people. It's possible for you to like get a relationship. I don't know. We've probably all seen the guy. He's called never give up.  It got like 20 million views or something like that. It got reposted loads of times articles. It probably got like 100 million views and like more traction or whatever. So because of that, a woman reached out to this guy. And then the woman was like, hey, I think you're pretty cool. I watch some of your streams. I think we should like hang out a bit. They hang out. This called then they met IRL. I agree that this is like a very, very, very, very rare event. But if you're able to do it, if you're able to get, just get your face out to like loads and loads of different people through like different internet avenues. I think it's possible.  And you won't like this 10 out of 10 stunner looking women. Right. If that's the case, then you put yourself out to more people, then it'll be more likely for you to achieve that. Right. I think that's pretty solid just to shoot more shots.  That's, that's great. This one coming in from do appreciate your question. Melody Kate, thanks for your donation to the cause. And if you had a question attached to it, let me know just at me in the live chat and I'll read it if you meant to attach one. Kango before four says, what is game? Do adults really rate women and score them? Can I ask the black pill people a question? Do you have female friends? So first Alex, if you want to explain what game is, and then we'll ask black pill or black pill guests if they have female friends. Yeah.  It is your charisma. It is your personality. It is all those things. It's your set of internal beliefs about yourself and also how you carry yourself. That is game. And what was the second part of the question? They were asking the black pillars. Oh, the black pillars. Do you have female friends? Oh, QB. Do you want to go first? I feel like I. Yeah. I got a ton of female friends. So yeah. And I've had them throughout my whole entire life. So that's never been an issue with me. Gotcha. Um, I'm a bit different generally throughout my life. I really haven't like run in friend groups with like a lot of women in them. I have every now and again, but like generally, like, there's a more like anomalies than mainly who I hang out with.  I know, like, that's really taboo for a lot of like black people is like, I get the women out of that. I don't really mind too much perspective in my opinion.  But so it was, you know, just being friends with a girl and not really like, you know, have some type of sexual chemistry has somewhat been rare. Um, you know, unless she's a coworker or went to college or high school or maybe had a class with. Um, but for the most part, I just don't really have like girlfriends that I call up and, you know, talk about stuff in general because it's kind of pointless for me. You know, I have plenty of, you know, guy friends that I'm cool with. So I don't, you know, I don't friends on myself to be like a girl's tampon. Many women have tried that with being the past. Um, but I let them know like, Hey, I'm not that guy.  You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate your question. Flamie O says, Natty, how do I find out my chemical makeup? I'm not sure what that means. I have no idea either. Oh, this is an oxygen. Giovanni says from team or Giovanni from team rocket says on black pill forums, these guys regularly tell other men and underage guys to end their lives based on their height and looks and talk them through it. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Um, all right. This is, um, it gets to a point where it's like, I don't know what to say, like some people do this. Yes. And the people who do this is bad. It's negative. They obviously shouldn't do it, but I would say like generally the general rule, um, for like black pill ideology is this, like, it's this small circle here. And then people can take that different ways. I can take that with like the Uber nihilistic, uh, to everybody to rope. They go this way or they could take it and go this way. Whereas like, okay, then these are the immutable characteristics. And then we go from here. There were some really, really, really toxic, um, black pill forums, um, online extremely toxic. You should never be like, you've never been. There's like a 10 foot pole. Just like stay away from them. Right. But I would say the, those are more niche. Right. Like you wouldn't really find these sorts of like resources or these sorts of places on like this school, for example, if like you go into like incel, if you go into like incel.is, I think it's what it's called now. Then you might find some of this stuff, but that is still like somewhat of a niche resource for incel. Right.  Right. But if you go like, it's very, it's similar for like, um, any different ideology. If you were like, um, uh, right leaning and then you go on like these really, really niche forums for like, um, right wing people, you're going to find like some extremists. Like they're going to start talking about like the Jewish question. They're going to start talking about everything. Right. They're going to start talking about all extreme stuff. Uh, so when you like deviate off into these like extreme areas, you're going to find extreme views. Do you call them out?  I'm not there. I'm not in these spaces. I, I, I, the only time where I interact with like, um, general incel communities on YouTube and on discord, I don't, I'm not in those spaces.  You're giving that for me. So I don't think you're responsible for the fact that there's a few extremists in your community doing it. But I think that if you don't call them out, then that's a different story. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that to an extent. But also I'm like a fairly small voice. Like I'm not a very big YouTuber. I just started this up more to long ago. I like just make video essays every now and again.   It can start with my 30 day busted nut challenge. Okay. Wow. Wow. We'll give you a quick pit to your responsibility. Then we got to go to the next one. QB. Yeah.  And I tell them that that's very toxic. You know, like you should not be rating other men. You should self improve. And because these men are with these types of women, you can't be jealous about that because again, not all men are created equal. So yeah, I totally disagree with that type of behavior and the black pill space. Well, I'm glad to hear you say that. say that. Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that, too. If your prescription is self-improvement QB, that's amazing. I totally agree on that. This one coming in from Sunflower says, How sure are you, Alex, that your ex wasn't cheating on this broke fellow who was a three or a four the whole time that they were married?  All right, relax.  QB looks like he just had an orgasm. He's like, oh, he got him. Okay, how do I know? Well, to be honest, I don't. But even if she was, let's just assume that she was cheating on him. I don't think it's still negates the fact that she married a guy who and obviously had sex with him and was practically involved with him for a very long period of time. And again, the reasons she gave makes sense. Right place, right time, she was just getting out of a breakup. He was part of her social circle, amazing in bed, apparently fucked her better than anyone. There's all these factors that line up. So it's like, yeah, I can kind of see how that would happen.  So I can't answer that, but I don't think it negates the point at all, even if she was. You got this one coming in from Andrew Handelsman says, for the orphans, they share donation Andrew and bended a bender over says trying to disprove the statistics of the basically trying to disprove the statistics with anecdotal exceptions when all the data shows men's loneliness is getting worse, telling guys they need pick up game causes mental harm without success. The 100% does agree with that again, just because yes, the, the, uh, yes, of course, I just literally dropped a video on this today that the insult epidemic is getting worse than ever. It doesn't mean that men don't need game. I would say that men need game more now than ever because dating marketplace is getting more competitive and technology is alienating people more than ever.  So yeah, I think that those guys don't need game less, actually need game more. So, uh, I think his, his statistic about the in cell epidemic getting worse actually, here's my point. And where's, where's the, the statistic that says that helping guys with game and getting better at this stuff will like not help. Right. So he puts, he has a descriptive claim, which is true, but then throws in a prescriptive claim and then conflates the two together as if it's a fact and it's not. It's literally just his opinion that he thinks that game and stuff that Alex does. It is a fact really. What's, what's, what's the, how is that a fact? A scientific fact. Yeah, that's what I just said. Did you not hear what I just said? No, I heard what you said, but you try to mix it in that, well, where's the stat that game works and that guys are improving by learning, learning game. There, there, there, there is no fact on that. I said, I said the one that makes those two together and he just confided the two and yeah, go ahead Alex. Sorry. There's no statistic or fact that game doesn't work. The only statistic or fact we have is in cell epidemic is getting worse. And again, we don't know if that has to do anything to do with game or anything not to do with game. I think the most reasonable explanation for that is alienation through technology and also the dating marketplace getting more competitive. I think that's the most reasonable explanation. I think saying, oh, that's because game doesn't work is a pretty big leap. Go ahead, Nadi. I read on a study. Real quick follow up. I'm sorry. I read on a study that it has more to do with people getting married later in life and men still living at home. Yeah, but definitely probably part of it for sure. Men down moving out. Part of it as to why men are not having the same sex as they had in the past. I got some say off the table. Monta, personal question. Do you live with your parents or do you have your own place? I live with my parents. Okay. So yeah, like that is actually so that is going to be a very huge conflating factor. Like that's going to make my job, if you accept my challenge, like a thousand times harder. The fact that you don't have your own logistics. So that is a big factor. Now you're very young. I got a butt in that, Alex. I've lived with my parents almost to I almost till I was 28. And I never had a problem bringing a girl back or I even told girls like, yeah, I still live at home with my parents and it was never a problem. But you're the exception to the rule QB. For most girls, they're not going to feel comfortable going. That's one of the like double standards that we have in society. I've literally lost girls. Like I had one situation where I was pulling a trick back to my place. Everything was on point, but I was like staying in my mom for a month during the summer. It was to my mom's place. And then when she found out it was my mom's place, she like changed her mind. So I've literally personally experienced living with your parents working against you. Is it possible? Yes. Is it doable? Yes. It also comes down to how cool your parents are.  Honestly. Okay. So that will that. Okay, that is better, but it's still not ideal. But yeah, any words on that QB will give you a quick pithy response. And then we got to move to the next one. I still think the physical self improvement is better, but kind of to chime in back on the install rate rising. If guys change their location and travel, they can possibly get the results that they desire. So I really want to point that out. If you're willing to go to a different location, you can have success with women. So the problem is that a lot of people don't have a flexible job where they can work from their laptop. A lot of people have to actually be at the office. So they don't have the luxury of doing that, at least not from what I understand. I know, but let me rebuttal on that. There are still ways. Okay. Even if you have a nine to five job, if you move to Miami, if you move to San Diego, where you have access to Mexico, 20 minutes away, you can have better results. 20 minutes. Well, Miami is the easy flight to Columbia, Brazil, Dominican Republic, what an hour doesn't work. If you have, but a lot of people have nine to one brick and mortar jobs, we have to show up in like some office in Indianapolis, they can't move to Miami. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to move in Miami. Like a lot of people don't have that.  Like the average American has to be at the office and they don't live in a cool city like Miami.  Like it's just like the reality of the matter.  So that's part of the self-improvement You know, it's so interesting. QB, I 100% agree with you on this. I totally agree. I think I think traveling is what everybody should do if they should try to do it.  That's not, but, but, you know, you don't need to act like that's not a part of it. But, you know, when you travel your entire worldview, the way that you view the world just changes and it's, it's, it's an amazing experience. So this is one thing that I agree with you on the travel. Sure. I do agree that, yeah, everyone should strive to get a, you know, virtual job and that would be awesome. But at the end of the day, we still need people to pump gas. We still need people to work in the grocery stores in the middle of nowhere. We still need people to work in the hospital. So there as a society, there's no way we can have the majority of our population like, you know, having this kind of cool lifestyle. So that's just kind of the reality of the matter. It's like, you should try for yourself, but there's still going to be the majority of people who can't do that. You got it. And this one, actually, I think that's the last of the questions. I want to say our guests are linked to the description folks. Highly encourage you to check their links out. If you'd like to hear more, in fact, that actually reminds me, I've got Namas and PWFs, but I've got to get the rest of yours. So I'll get those in there ASAP as in within the next 20 minutes or so as I do the post credit scene. So stick around folks for the post credit scene. I will be letting you know about upcoming juicy debates. You don't want to miss them. But like I said, thank you very much to our guests. We're linked in the description. That includes at the podcast where we put our guests and links in the description box there as well. Thank you very much. PWF, Kevin, Natty, Vonta and QB. With that, stick around folks. I'll be back in just a moment, letting you know about upcoming debates. And I don't think I said it during the stream. If you haven't yet, hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates and panels coming up and you don't want to miss them. So stick around and I'll be back in just a moment. I have you here and I hope you're having a good night. Really do appreciate all of our guests. I am going to add their links to the description box right now. Two seconds. As... That's right. Okay, two seconds. I've got the links from one computer on the Zoom. Let me just open this up right now. But I want to say thank you very much for being with us. We hope you are having a great rest of your... or hope you're having a great night. We do appreciate you guys. Crackerjack, thanks for being with us. I see you there in the whole live chat. Randolph, thanks for coming by. Thanks for your support Randolph says. I uploaded this video. Did you? If not, why not? Thank you very much Randolph. Seriously, appreciate that. Cole, thanks for coming by. We are glad you were here. Maxim is glad to have you as well.  As well as Melody, Kate, thanks for coming by. Thanks for your huge support. It says right now, huge fire. Oh gosh. In Southern California, near my home. I hope everything's okay, Melody. Seriously, that sounds scary and I hope you're okay. But thanks as well, Melody. I think if I remember right, you made a donation to Worldwide Orphans. Thanks for your support. Randolph, Richardson, thanks for your support being here. And that's right. If you haven't yet, hit that like button as that does help the stream in terms of it being recommended to more people. We appreciate that support. And Fleet Admiral Siddiqi, thanks for coming by. I hope I pronounced that right. Let me know as well as Challenger Escape. Thanks for coming by. Glad you're here. DJ Dissolve, happy to have you. Duffreak, happy you came by. Joe the Toe, thanks for dropping in. Maximus and Gleepglor. Glad you were here. Silly little sausage, thanks for dropping in. Joseph Ipolito, thanks for coming by. As well as Jeremy Nolan and Duffreak. Kai H, we're glad you're here. Bender over, thanks for dropping in. Emperor of Cats, happy to have you. ZZMilk, am I saying it right? Is it ZMilk or ZMilk? Glad you're with us. Shaik Yamani Mechher, thanks for coming by. Did I say that right? Creegee Paznips, thanks for dropping in as well as Joe the Toe. Diago Jose Texira, Dussilva, Joe Massarillo. Thanks for coming by. Luis Williams, thanks for coming by. Glad to have you here. Red Pill, glad to have you. Francesca King, thanks for dropping by as well as Medianfire. And Tim, thanks for coming by. Gamer, glad you're here. Allen Goodyear, thanks for dropping in as well as Big Thang Flying Wayne. Glad you came by. Good to see you again. It's been a while. Oflamio, you said you missed one from me. Oh, sorry Oflamio. Seriously, I'm really sorry about that, man. Shoot me an email at moderatedbate at gmail.com if you'd like a refund. It is a little bit, yeah, that's all my fault. Sorry, let me just take responsibility for that. I'm sorry, man. I appreciate you being so supportive and that's why I'm like, gosh, sorry for dropping the ball in that one. Although, let me let me know which one it was, if you remember, because once in a while it could be and I'm not saying it is the case. I'm just saying it might be. Once in a while, I read it and sometimes people like stepped away at just the time to go to the bathroom and I'm like, wait, no, I actually did read that one. So let me know though, if it is the case, I am sorry. Crackerjack, thanks for dropping in as well as Kree Parsnips. And the freak, good to see you here. Tim, happy to have you. He says, oh, I won't read that. Kai H, thanks for coming by. Classy Orange, happy to have you here. We hope that you are doing well. As well as Paul Nolan, thanks for coming by. Scrap, Iron Flying, Bengal Tiger, glad you are with us and Cormac, thanks for dropping in. Flooded Area, 3261. Glad you are here. JB Mominy, thanks for coming by. Den T. Jen, thanks for dropping in. Voioides, Voioides. I can't, I hope you're doing well. Thanks for being here. This one coming in from Cormac says, so prove the game works statistically. Well, Cormac, we are glad that you were here. We appreciate you coming by. Whether you would be red pill, black pill, we see you there in the old live chat and we hope you feel welcome. We really do appreciate you. Seriously, we really do want to give everybody a fair shot. So my story in terms of why we started to moderate a debate is I used to go on debate channels and occasionally I, you know, I was a debater and I would debate and occasionally I would feel like, man, it's like not all channels and not all moderators, but there was like sometimes where I was like, man, that moderator just seemed to be like totally taking somebody's side. Like it wasn't mine and it kind of triggered me to where I was like, and so I was like, you know what, we're going to start our own channel and we're going to specifically make it our goal to give everybody a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field. That's important to us and we want to do that here at modern day debate. So we do appreciate all of you guys for being here whether you be Blackpill, Redpill, you name it. And I'm going to update those links right now as I just thought about it. Let me do this really quick. Let's see here. I know we had, this is where I think it was, but tell me in the little live chat, how are your guys' lives going? I hope you're doing well. Tell me what you're excited about, what you've been thinking about lately, all that good stuff. And let's see here. Okay, I'm so slow, but as of right now, bear with me. Okay, let's see. Kevin. Just added Kevin's link to the description box as well, and now I'm going to add the other two links from our two guests, namely QB. Thanks for coming by QB. If the stream buffers a little bit, bear with me as I'm just trying to, what's the word? What I'm trying to do is... Coming to UNC, one thing that I really wanted to engage in. All the ads, here we go. There's two seconds. What I'm going to do is I'm going to put this link in here. Don't forget to hit like as that, like I said, does help the channel. And maybe, here's another thing. If you happen to enjoy juicy, controversial topics like this, I would encourage you, hey, share this debate. That really does help this channel grow. Third-party testimony where you say, hey, you know, I like this channel. It's a pretty cool channel. That helps more than you know. We really do appreciate that. Seriously. So we encourage you, if you have, let's say, a Discord group or a Twitter thread, or you name it, go on in there and say, hey, if you guys like this topic of Blackpill, Redpill, et cetera, you can definitely share this link right now. And that helps us as we continue to pursue our passion of providing a level playing field so that everybody can make their case on a neutral platform. That's our goal. YouTube deserves a better class of debate channel. And we're going to give it to them. Want to say, thanks for coming by. IntraSpecies says, was out debate, bros. Good to see you, IntraSpecies. YouTube's favorite daughter. There she is. We hope you're doing well. Bender over. Thanks for coming by. I just understood. Let's see. I just understood your username. How are you daring individual? Affirmative. Good to see you. I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for coming by. IntraSpecies says, I got some soy boy apples with peanut butter. That's right. Nobody likes the soy more than IntraSpecies. And thanks for the other seat. IntraSpecies says, I wonder if people purposely put hard to pronounce username just so James has to pronounce them when he says hi. It's true. It's damn true. But what is say thanks for your support. The freak says to turn the tide, separate boys and girls and K through 12. Juicy. Controversial to say the least. IntraSpecies, because I just love teasing IntraSpecies, so I'm going to read all of her chats in particular. But fluffy says, I want to see some James debate now. Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate that. And I think I will someday. It's just that right now, like while I'm in the program that I'm in, it's a little, I don't think it's too controversial. I could probably get away with it on some topics, but I just want to once I get my degree and get out of here, then I'm more likely to do it. Ghost Rider 253503 says, just subscribed. Thanks for your support, Ghost Rider. Seriously, we're glad to have you. And we really do. Like I said, just putting my little, what is this called? Password? Putting my password in the YouTube here. I am going to put in our guest links. Thanks for your support, though, Ghost Rider. Seriously. And IntraSpecies says, I was watching a debate on a channel where the moderator was answering questions sent in for debaters and then also started debating. LOL. I was like, my dude, come on. I agree, IntraSpecies. It happens sometimes and I'm like, no, no, no. Like that's not. And the other thing is, and I can work on this, is I want to give the speakers as much freedom as possible. Like that's one thing is like, you know, an overbearing moderator is just like, ah, jeez, you know, what are you doing? So we hope that our debaters feel like they have the freedom to say what they want. That's one of our other values is want people to have the liberty to be able to say what they want, as well as we value competition. We think that if there is a competition of ideas, if you let a thousand flowers bloom, if you let the chips fall where they may, the cream will rise to the top. We think the best arguments will win out and an empirical case can be made for that. In fact, that's a topic I'd actually be open to debating. It would just have to be like, I want a big fish. Like I want someone like who's got really good debate skills. And this one coming in from Luis Williams. Thanks for your support. It says, your channel is so good. Subscribed on another account since like 2019. Thanks for your support. Seriously, that really does mean a lot. I appreciate that. And then, yeah, Crackerjack, I'm calling you out like crazy. We got nothing but love for you. Tim, thanks so much, there's no channel like Moderate Debate. Seriously, thanks for your support. That really does mean a lot. We want to encourage you, hey, you can check out all of our guests in the description box. And that's right now. I'm putting Vanta in the description box right now, as I'm embarrassed that I was so slow to actually do this. But right now, I've got Kevin. Crazy. We got nothing but love for you.  That's the playing of me. But Hamlet's Dad says, Commies ain't even competition at that point.  Like really full out soy and all that stuff. But let's see. Vanta. I'm going to put, okay, Vanta's in there and then QB. So thanks for your patience, QB and Vanta, if you happen to be, if you were like, dang it, James, why didn't you put it in there? I want to say seriously, if you were having a hard day, and I'm very serious about this, this isn't, I don't just say this, we've had people call in, or I should say contact me via email, is if you're ever having a hard day, for real, I'm happy to have you contact me at Moderate Debate at gmail.com.  Like, if you have a hard day like that, if you're like, oh my gosh, and you're just like, I would really love someone to just process with. I'm not a counselor. That's not what my PhD in psychology is. It's not in that field. I'm not that type of psychologist. But I do want to be there for you just as a person. So no matter what your view is, whether you be Christian, atheist, Muslim, agnostic, black, white, gay, straight, politically left, politically right, you name it, we really, like I would like to be there for you in your hard days. And so I hope that, you know, I know a lot of you, like I've gone through it myself.  Like it has been a brutal year. And I have just appreciated that people have supported me. I want to support you and appreciate like to kind of be there for you. And across you could say quote unquote group boundaries, whether you be Christian, atheist, whatever. Like I want to be there for you. If you ever have a hard day like that. So seriously, I'm at moderatedbateageemail.com if you ever just want to vent or if you want someone to pray for you. Or if you're like, I don't, I don't like prayer and I don't want prayer, but I'd be happy to have somebody listen to me. And just as I process like, hey, let me know, I'd be happy to listen. And would be happy to try to help out. And media and fire, thanks for coming by. We love having you here. It's a milk. Good to see you and Louise. Thanks for your support as well as, let's see here, I'm catching up. Hannah Anderson says, thanks for coming, everyone. Please hit that, that like button and subscribe if you haven't. Thanks for that. Seriously appreciate that Hannah. And Melody Kate says shared. Thanks for sharing that. Seriously, that really does mean a lot.   But face an LMS if you, well, I'll email you. I've got, I've got his email somewhere because I've asked him before. I'll ask, I'll see if we can get him on here because that would be fire. Seriously, I have enjoyed face and LMS videos. Like some of them are just so interesting. Some of them being like Tinder experiments. Those are interesting, which by the way, Alex, it's funny, Alex from playing with fire also has some interesting Tinder experiment videos on his channel. And so yeah, that's something in common. But this one, Fact Based Living says I can, I can do an after show on the Monday to debate discord if anyone's interested. Please feel free. Larry Letts, I mean, Spring Hill, Jack, happy to have you here. Letts Farm has done a fantastic job with the discord in terms of growing it and making it awesome. So I highly encourage you to check it out. And then Fluffy, thanks for coming by as well as Hamlet Stats. As Kami's ain't even competition at that point. I know interest species that Kami is not competition. Christopher Hatch, thanks for coming by. It says, you know, Jeff Hunt, Colorado Christian University, like him? I honestly don't know him. I'm not at a Christian University. I'm at Colorado State. So it's like, you know, the very predictable, conventional, left leaning secular university Spring Hill. Thanks for coming by. Could you could you hear it in my voice? I mean, I've been to a lot of universities. They're quite the same in a lot of ways. But for the future, thanks for coming by. And don't get me wrong. That's not to say that there's any less legitimacy of a person's argument or anything like that. I'm not trying to say that. I'm just saying it's just, you guys think I'm predictable. For the future, thanks for your super sticker. Thanks for your support. Thank you for your superstickers. And we are donating. As mentioned, 100% of the super chats tonight are going to worldwide orphans. So we really do want to, you guys, that's the thing. We've talked about this before. You know, a lot of people, a lot of content creators in particular, if they say like, oh, yeah, I want to make a difference in the world.  So like, we want to make a difference in the world. And doing these charity streams, we just did one on them. By the way, Monday night, we raised the biggest, I think it was the biggest charity stream we've ever had. It was $400 in super chats that went to the Domestic Violence Action Center. So helping people, whether they be women, children, men, people who have experienced domestic violence, that was one of our best charity streams ever. Tonight was a good one too. We had, I think it was at least $100, probably came in through super chats tonight. We will put the donation receipt on the YouTube community tab. So if you want to see that, highly encourage you to check that out. And thanks for your super sticker for the future, as well as, let me just double check that we've got, let's see, yeah, I've got to go. It's getting pretty late. But yeah, yeah, thanks for coming by. Shaik says, vegans versus carnivore debate. Hey, you're going to have to ask interest species. Hopefully we can get her back on here and do that debate. That'd be fun. But let's see. Farrell says, face is good, dude. Yeah, face has got some really interesting videos. Seriously, they are super interesting. One of the few videos that I'll actually watch all the way through. Hamlet's dad says, Ayo, Kami's got to chill. Ya feel ma. You guys know I don't know the hip slang. Farrell, thanks for coming by. He says, you should listen to Face's episode on Nama's podcast too, by the way. He's got one on there. Oh, I didn't know that. Does he really? That's cool. For the future, thanks for your super chat support for the charity stream that we're doing tonight. Said no, thank you. Thank you for your support, seriously. We're encouraged to do this live stream charity event. So thank you guys for all your support for it. That receipt, I will get it up by Friday. As I've got a, basically I'm going to get it up there. I'm going to make the donation. Usually YouTube does a calculation of the super chats, and then it shows like so. Basically it'll show shortly. About 24 hours it usually takes. And then I'll try to get it up there by Friday because depending on what time I go to sleep tomorrow night, we'll see. But want to say, yeah, it will be on the old social tab. And be conned, good to see you. Thanks for coming by. Hamlet's dad says, so you feel me? Is hip slaying now? Thank you for teaching me that. I will use that all day tomorrow with my colleagues. You'll feel me? But thank you guys, seriously. Thanks for being fun. You guys are awesome. I hope you have a great rest of your night. I look forward to seeing you at the next one. Keep sipping out the reasonable, from the unreasonable. Take care and have a good night.