You're twice as sure with two great names, Frigidaire and General Motors. Frigidaire presents Herbert Marshall as the man called X. Whenever there is mystery, intrigue, romance, in all the strange and dangerous places of the world, there you will find the man called X. Now Frigidaire presents Herbert Marshall as Ken Thurston, the man called X. Good evening, Mr. Thurston. I have a little message for you. If you don't mind, I'll give it to you right now. Yes? Have you got Cairo? Not yet, Chief. We're still trying, but the wire's to Cairo. I don't care how busy they are. There must be some worry by now about Thurston's killers. Get out of them again. Tell them I want action fast. Yes, sir. I'll try immediately. Now what do you want, Pagan? I wanted to tell you something very important about the late departed, Mr. Thurston. Something I'm sure you never realized, Mr. Chief. I happen to be his only heir. Is what? So many times he told me, Pagan, when I go, I wish to leave everything to you. Unfortunately, I don't know where all his money is, but if you would help me to locate it for a reason of a commission... Pagan, you dirty, chiseling, black-hearted... Yes, I know, I know, but if you would help me collect his estate, I could give you percentage. A small one, of course, but... Get out of my office. Get out before I... Yes? There's a call from Cairo, sir. It just came through. I'll take it. Hello? Hello? You sound a skeptic, Chief. And what if I do? What business is it of you? Ken. Ken Thurston. Hi, Chief. But what? It can't be you. The reports of your death... Ken, what happened there in Cairo? A local lab was working with me. He was in my room alone when a female visitor came calling on me. Her charms prove fatal. Yes, but why...  Chief, if the boys were after think I'm dead, maybe they'll relax a little. Oh, then the looting of that steamer carrying an American relief shipment isn't just an isolated case. Not a chance. The pilots who bought it on the Red Sea were too well-organized.  The American people pay for shipments of food and clothing for those poor, starving, unfortunate... I know. And they pay Captain Kidd for the black market. And they lead yet on who's behind it? Chief, send me the Harbourman file by the first plane. The Harbourman file? Good Lord Ken, what makes you think he's mixed up in this? Because I was killed with three silver bullets. Silver bullets? Do I get that file? Yes, yes, right away. Where'll my man get in touch with you? At the Kismet. A crummy little cafe near the Nile. A good place for you to hide out? No, terrible. But they serve the finest martinis I've ever traced in. Here, Effendi, you martini with the onion. Good. Now bring another for the young lady. I see no young lady at your table. Are you well any second? Very well, Effendi. I heard you ordered that drink for me. Too bad I wanted to surprise you. How did you know I would join you? I saw you come in and check the unattached males, and I thought, well... I had a friend once who liked onions in his martinis. He had excellent taste in drinks. Nothing wrong with his taste in women. Your martini, Effendi. Good, here. Well, thank you, Effendi. Shall we drink? To our meeting? To your friend who brought it about. To my friend. What was your friend's name? I thought it was... Ken Thurston. Unfortunately, he died before I learned his real name. Too bad. How did that happen? I killed him. They hear martini. It is too strong, perhaps. So this meeting is no accident. You knew it was not. Are you going to shoot me again? That depends. I'm very fond of money. I'm very fond of living. We could both be happy. If you were to remain alive, you could pay me money for information. Would it be worth it? Would it not be worth almost any amount if it concerned silver?  I could be even more... What's the matter? Outside through that window. I thought I saw... I should have to leave now. Can you meet me later tonight? Where? At the Silver Scourge. Meet me there in an hour. Have the martini waiting. The young lady is leaving, Effendi. She is left.  Never mind counting. It's too late now. No, Mr. Thurston. Don't go out there. Where did you come from? I'll talk to you later. Get out of my way. No, Mr. Thurston, people are shooting out there. Give me the job. I've got to get to that girl. Well, well... Is that the girl you were after, Mr. X? That one lying there in the street? Yes. I say, what's all this rumpus about? Fearfully noisy neighborhood. Fellow conquered a decent night's sleep. Girl's been hurt, eh? Let's have a look at her. You a doctor? Having for 40 years. Sibley's the name. Dr. Ford Sibley. My place is right across the street. I've been practicing here, but let me see it that way. Never mind your life's history. What about hers? Any future to it? Girl's future's all in her past, young man. She's dead. Yes, I saw it all, Mr. Thurston. The car was parked waiting for her. She opened the door, she screamed, and then came the shots. So you do open the door with the kids that are scared rabbit instead of getting the license number? For which you should thank me. We have no time to chase local murderers. Not while this dangerous Haberman is still alive. What do you know about Haberman? What do I... Why else would the chief send me to you with this file? Probably because you talked him into it for your usual slight consideration. So that's what you're doing here in Cairo. There you go. Oh, skip it. Well, as I was saying, did you know that this fellow Haberman is an international soldier, a fortune, and a pirate? I did. Oh. Did you know that there is no description of him anywhere? Not even his sex? The only clue is that he's nuts about silver. All his jewelry, ornaments, even his weapons are of silver. Remind me to buy you a dictionary, Pagan. Dictionary? So you can learn the meaning of secret and confidential. There's stamped on the outside of the reports you brought me. Oh. But Mr. X, why do you think Haberman is here in Cairo? The bullets that killed that man in my room were made of silver.  I'll work on it, Pagan, starting right here. Here?  That's right. The Silver Scarab. Ah. The floor show. And a female dancer, too. You know, Mr. Therson, there's nothing I like better than a female dancer, unless it's a female. Mr. X. She's the dead girl. The dancer is the dead girl. Come back to life. The resemblance is close, but not that close. Oh. Oh, yes, you're right. I can see that now. Sure. But for a minute, I thought, hmm, look at those silver spangles in her dress. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. Oh. Stay here, Pagan. I'll pick up later. But why leave now, Mr. Therson? There will be other dancers, I hope. Yeah, I'm gonna see this one in her dressing room. Nothing about it. It was her own idea. I think it's your lies, Aida. Why did she visit this man? I tell you, I do not know. I don't... Oh. When I ask you, Saida, why did she visit him? Playing pretty rough, aren't you? What is the meaning of this intrusion? Do I have to write it out for you? Your humor is as badly conceived as your entrance here. Perhaps this will teach you to mend your menace. Never the lead with your right. It gets into trouble. Release my arm. You're breaking it. Funny thing about judo, it's liable to hurt people.  Let's talk about it later. Good night. You were very foolish. I meant that. I've been foolish before. Not with men like that. Worse. With women. Oh.  That might depend. And what you can tell me of my sister Deborah's death. Mr. Thurston. Good old Egyptian grapevine.  Sure, but not here. No? Then where? Why not a little boat ride on the Nile? It's a full moon. You see, Ken. My sister Deborah preferred the easy life. Quick money. Men like Paul Zeen. The man you threw out of my dressing room. He's a wealthy and powerful man, Ken. Owner of the Euphrates shipping company. Euphrates shipping company. He was her friend. It was because of him, I think, that Deborah was involved in this trouble. What? I was later. That's just it. I do not know any details. That was why I wished to speak with you. I thought perhaps you could tell me something about it. I'll be drawing a blank here as later. I only met her a couple of hours ago, and then only for a few minutes. I see. Now my poor sister Deborah's dead. Well, the Fates have decided. There's nothing we can do to alter their decision. I'm a great believer in the Fates, Ken. What did they tell you about the immediate future? I do not know, Ken. Do you mind to guess? I'm not sure. Afraid to find out? Afraid, yes. But you could give me courage, Ken. I could try. Do you want me to? Yes, Ken. Yes, I want you to. Very much. Then I'll try. But first... Oh! You better drop that gun. Oh, let go of my wrist. Let go, I say. Drop the gun. I drop your wrist. No. No, I... All right, Ken. All right. How did you get that little inspiration?  Let's keep an open mind about this. You cannot convince me otherwise. No, I can try. And hold you to my arms this way, there isn't very much you can do about it. Everything is... it's so mixed up. What can I do? I don't know yet. But you've got to change your mind later. And this is the pleasantest way of trying to convince you I can think of. Mr. Thurston, this is a definite imposition in my good nature. Dragging me around in dark alleys like this. Would you mind telling me why we're here? To find out what makes the wealthy Mr. Pozine wealthy. And do you think you can find out that I'll be sneaking around behind all these warehouses? Not all of them, just this one. You've created a shipping company. Now get out your jackknife, pay gone, and jimmy that window. You talk as though I was a professional warehouse breaker. I don't know how to do this. And I'll give eight to five that Hoverman's loot is mostly silver.  I might try being new at this. I don't know how successful I will be, but... Well, look, Mr. Thurston. What? Amazing. Let's climb in. It's as black as Hoverman's soul in here, Mr. Thurston. Quiet be gone. There's a light under that door. There's somebody. Isn't there? Probably with a gun or a knife. Let's go in and see. Do we have to? Can't we just...? Well... Coffins. The room is filled with coffins. What would they be doing in a warehouse of the Euphrates? All right. Let's see if we can find the answer. We'll look inside one of them. Huh? Oh, no, Mr. Thurston. Let the dead rest in peace. If we leave them alone, maybe they'll leave us alone. Maybe... Hey. Mr. Thurston. Look. Yeah. Rifles, submachine guns, all kinds of guns. But for the peculiar cargo for coffins. Yeah. Let's check this one. This one's a different playground. I'm leaving. I just remembered an important engagement. I left my waffle iron burning.  She can't hurt you now. How do I know? If she can move from the street and fill the kismet into this coffin, she can do anything. Mr. X. There's no chance of a mistake. No. No. A girl in that coffin. That's Deborah. Now to return to Frigidaire's man-called ex-starring Herbert Marshall. Mr. X is in Cairo to track down the international bandit, Tauberman. The trail is led into a warehouse of the Euphrates shipping company, which he finds filled with coffins containing rifles and machine guns, except one which holds the body of the mysterious Egyptian girl, Deborah. We join him now as he and Pagon stand there looking down. Please, Mr. Thurston, let's get out of here. Small round bruise on her throat just above the artery, I wonder. The only thing I wonder about is why are we still standing here? Wait till I check the shipping tags on these coffins. That's an Arabic, but a few words. Pretty clear. Port Said, Mohammed Bay, Mecca. Come on, Pagon, we're leaving. But where are we going? To Port Said. By way of Dr. Sibley's joint across from the kismet café. I was waiting for the authorities to arrive to get the girl's body, you know, when this Arabian fellow approached and struck me unconscious. Came to, and the girl was gone. Ever seen him before, doctor? Once or twice, Mr. Thurston, frequenting the kismet. Never even been introduced. Makes me furious. Can't do that to me. I want to be in the know, Thurston, definitely. Don't know what's up. No, that sort of thing, but I want to be in the know. How well do you know Port Said, doctor? Been in the Middle East 40 years. Know the place like a book. Good, you're in. I'll give you a brief you later. Right now. Get us to Port Said in a hurry. Right. What's the time? Don't ever watch. Never carry the beastly thing. All was stopping on me. It's 11.43. Splendid. Time enough to catch the last night train. I'll phone for a cab. Be right back. Mr. Thurston, I'm not going to ask you about the guns or about the pole zine or the dead girl or the dancer Zahida. Not even about Haberman. I just want to know one thing. Why we're going to Port Said? Yes, why we're... You said it. We're going there to find out about the guns. We're going to find out about pole zine, Deborah, Zahida and Haberman. Mr. Thurston, night train to Port Said. First-class carriages are on this side. Shall we go board? Yes, but not together. Oh, um... No, no. You got to compartment for yourself. We'll meet in Port Said. Quite undercover sort of thing. What suggest we meet at the El Akbar Hotel? El Akbar. A middle-class traveller's lodging. Quite respectable. Um... Oh, write it down for me, will you? Sorry, car. No pen or pencil. Never carry them. Pins always leak and the pencils run out of lead. That's all right. I'll remember. See you there. Right, here you are. We'll see you at the good old Akbar. Well, Mr. Thurston, did we get aboard too? Yeah. No. Huh? Hello, pole zine. You have a faculty for appearing where you're not wanted, Mr. Thurston. Sir, I've been told. Going somewhere? Port Said, for instance? Crying into my affairs or interfering with them is a very dangerous pastime. Good night, Mr. Thurston. You know something? That man's personality doesn't like me. He doesn't exactly send me. Let's get aboard. We'll take the third compartment on the left. Why the third one? Because pole zine's taking the second. Well, wouldn't it be less crowded if we took the fourth compartment? You know, a little farther away? There's another friend of ours in four. Huh? She got aboard while pole zine was talking to us. She? Said, huh? It's been so wonderful. Just the two of us here in this compartment. And now we're nearing Port Said and our journey together will end. I wonder. Ken, listen to me. You must forget this business that brings you here. You don't know how powerful the forces are working against you. I took a correspondence course in muscle building once. Please, Ken, this is no joking matter. The pit has already been dug. The pit intended to be the grave of the man called X. There must be another letter in the alphabet. I better find it. Too many people seem to know that one. Then you will not listen to me. Oh, Ken, please don't die, please. That's good advice, Said. I'll try to follow it. There are times, Mr. X, when you're the most tiring of all, man. No sooner do we arrive at Port Said when you rush me like men to commissioner of the port. Well? And then before I have even had a chance to chase my breath. We're off again. This time down here to the docks. There's your answer, Pagon. The Mohammed Bay. The Mohammed... So... So that's what Mohammed Bay stands for. A rusty old tramp steamer. And look at the cargo they're loading. Coffins. Coffins. Yeah. Those jeans built up a live trade in dead Mohammedans, lugging coffins to Mecca, who suspected a sanctimonious guy of substituting guns for bodies and brought him off to Harbourman. Ah, so that's how he can be a regular pirate and steal the American reliefs. Sure. But how do you know that these coffins are the same ones that we saw in the warehouse? I don't. That's why I'm going to sneak aboard and find out. Huh? Oh, no. You meet Dr. Sibley at the El Akbar Hotel. Wait for me there.  Find yourself a nice nightclub. Maybe the dancers can help you forget your bereavement. It's now my turn to ask the question, Mr. Theston. Are you going somewhere? Prozine, you remind me of a summer cold, very unpleasant and hard to get rid of. Sometimes, if colds are ignored and get bad enough, they can prove to be fatal. What is this? National pistol week? I haven't seen so many guns since the last gangster picture. Unlike the weapons in the cinema, this one does not shoot blanks. Huh? Turn around with your back toward me. I haven't got much choice, have I? You are going aboard the Mohammed Bay to a much warmer welcome than you had expected. Mr. X. Well, Theston, how do you feel now? All right. Oh, well, I see your cabin has all the latest conveniences, including the lovely Zaida. I'm sorry, Ken. I tried to warn you, but you would not listen to me. It sounded appealing, but I couldn't go for it. Now, our harbourman was known up while he was still running around loose. Ah, yes, harbourman. Now that the Mohammed Bay has started her journey, you can forget about him. Long before we reach Mecca, you will have forgotten about everything. Because you will land fast, everyone. Pagan. Mr. Theston, we have come to the rescue. Shoot the first pirate who moves, Mr. Dr. Sibley. Sibley. We will make them board the gank like later.  How'd you ever dream this out? That's gratitude for you. I meet Dr. Sibley on the dock.  Don't take my word for it. Ask harbourman. What has he got to do with it?  I only brought Dr. Sibley aboard. So how could I have... how could I... Oh, no. Oh, tell me he's wrong, doctor. Tell me he's... he's... Impossible, old chap. He's quite correct. You can relax now, Pulsine. Zyda, I have some covered. Tell me, Mr. X, how did you know? Your old weakness, harbourman Silver. It showed up in your disguise. Nonsense.  Oh, that's what I mean. You went overboard. I never heard of a doctor not carrying a watch or fountain pen or pencil. When I thought about it, it wasn't too tough to figure out why they'd all be silver. But the worst mistake you made was in killing Deborah. Killing Deborah? But my sister was killed by shots from a car. One of harbourman's twoages shot alright, but the bullets didn't kill her. The small round bruise on her throat proved that. I do not understand, Ken. When harbourman was playing doctor, you must have found a pulse in her throat. That meant she might still talk. After she failed to kill you at the hotel and was going to double-cross me by selling information to you, I had no alternative but to strangle her. Kind of looks like she's the man you've been looking for, Zayda. Yes. The man who killed my sister.  The man I am going to kill. Zayda, that knife. Put down that knife or I'll...  What have you done? Hold that pulse in. Some knife throw right through the shoulder. Pick up his gun. Pick on. Sure, Mr. X. Swat. Thanks, Zayda. Ken, I don't know what to say. So you tied up with these two to find out who killed Deborah? It's true, Ken. I swear it. Well, pulse in? You forget we're practically on the high seas, Thurston. You cannot possibly hope to take this ship over by yourself. That's why I arranged for a little help before I came aboard. You'll notice we're losing way. That means the destroyer is coming alongside. You're right, Mr. Thurston. So we don't have to make a pilgrimage after all. No, Fager. But harbourman and pulse in do. A one-way pilgrimage to the final payoff of piracy. There's nothing in this world lower than the rats who profit by stealing from the poor and starving. That's why they've got to stop them. It's a long, tough job. But you know, I can think of 140 million people who just love to roll up their shirt sleeves and do it. At Alfred Gilairstar, Herbert Marshall. Thanks for being with us.  As usual, there'll be Leon Balasco along with Pagon Zelschmidt. So join us, won't you, where next I return as the man called X. Good night. Frigidaire's Man Called X is directed by Jack John Stahl, with music composed and conducted by Johnny Green. Tonight's story was written by Sidney Marshall. So until next week, same time, same station, this is Wendell Niles speaking for Frigidaire, made only by General Motors. All characters and incidents used are fictitious. And any resemblance to actual persons or incidents is purely coincidental. This is CBS, the Columbia Broadcasting System.


that ended up with an arrow in my leg. Hello. Hey, Darby. How did we meet? How did we uh... What did we meet? We met because we had a shared mutual friend group in college and our friend group thought that we were both individually the strangest and most competitive people that they knew and they thought if they got us together it would be very, very bad or very, very good. College is a good time.  My parents would not approve and that our local police station would likely not approve either. I like to think it worked out. Colorado just legalized and there was kind of a shift in the social awareness of cannabis where we were going from this is the devil's lettuce to this is something that a lot of people... Real talk, how long has it been since somebody has laughed at you for what you do because the first two years people I usually got laughs. So I've actually thought about this one all day. This is the only question that I prepared for in this interview. So chickens are very terrifying creatures for those of you who do not know we used to have pet chickens at Smoke Cartel. We loved them dearly. They produced eggs which we made for lunch. My first question before I can answer the question is does it retain the mass of... The elephant or the chicken? Yeah, like... Chicken-sized elephants would be elephants in their exact, you know, capacity but if they were... In the mass. Yes, to a chicken size. I would personally choose the hundred chicken-sized elephants as I think I could kick them. I think a chicken that is the size of an elephant would be a dinosaur. It would essentially be like if you've ever seen Clifford the big red dog. I think it would be a violent destroyer of worlds. One thing I don't think that they ever addressed in Clifford the big red dog was where did he poop and what was the size of those poops because he was a large dog and I don't think they ever really talked about it. They just...  Just think about that folks.


Hi, I'm Mary Ann Sasaki, and you're watching Life in the Law, Wednesdays Think Tech Hawaii, from one to one-thirty. I am honored and delighted today to have a guest who—I'm humbled by his work. So I hope—I think you all may be as well. His name is Eric A. Seitz, and he's a civil rights attorney right here in Honolulu. Welcome to the show, Eric. Thank you. My pleasure. Where should we start? We started at law school. When you were in law school, Eric went to bolt law school, which I think is the most exciting in the 60s, the most exciting and glamorous time, and—but you said it was chaotic. Well, when I got there, the first day that I got there, there was a strike on the lower campus, and there was a very big distinction. Nobody in the law school participated. I think there were three of us who saw these picket lines and this demonstration, and we decided to join. But everybody else in the law school in those days—this was 1966—had coats and ties on. Yeah, there was the straight people. They were going for a career. Right. And they thought we were a little bit weird. Right.  Yes. And the culture, right? You know, every—the impact on the culture. We're still feeling it today. Yeah. So did you want to practice civil rights law right out of the gate? Is that what you knew you wanted to do, or did it—was it an evolution, or— No, I went to law school kind of by default, because I didn't want to go and get a graduate degree and end up teaching. And I had been in the South in the civil rights movement, and I saw the impact that lawyers potentially could play. And I also knew, as a personal acquaintance, some of the more famous political lawyers of the 50s period of time who were my parents' friends. And I was very inspired by what they did. So when I went to law school, it was a very conscious decision that I wanted to do that as a means to engage in political work. Oh, great. So were your parents—people think this is a bad word, but I think this is a great word. Were they socialists? Were they—or— Well, socialists would be— Unionists, maybe? Socialists would be considered conservative in their lexicon. Right, right, right. But they were very active. They met when they were both working for WPA in the 30s in New York, and they progressed, and we ultimately left New York, and they moved to California because of the McCarthyist period, and they were hounded by the FBI. And so as a kid, you know, one of my jobs was to go to the door when the FBI knocked on the door and tell them my parents didn't want to talk to them. Wow. And that happened repeatedly. Really? And my father was like the resident—the resident leftist or progressive person in Palo Alto where I grew up. And, you know, he was always very outspoken and was a supporter in those days of recognizing China, which was a kind of like a voice in the wilderness. And my mother took in all kinds of stray people and was very supportive of all kinds of causes. And so, you know, I was sort of propelled in the direction by virtue of my parents' experiences. Those people—I remember those people from my childhood, and there was such—they led—there was such a delight. They led such texture—led such texture to the city. I mean, they really made it feel like a protein place where people were doing things, and there was intellectual activity afoot. And it wasn't intellectual activity of the academic sort of—the working-class intellectual activity. And you know, I don't think that exists so much anymore, the working-class intellectual. Well, I don't think so, I think, because these people were themselves college graduates where they came from somewhat intellectual, although my mother actually grew up in colonies—socialist colonies. But, you know, their experience was the 30s where everybody intermixed, and they developed very working-class sorts of values and aspirations. And even though they might have been more successful in later life, they didn't leave behind that kind of ideology, and they certainly conveyed that to me. So I am my parents' son, by all means. You're the product of their—you know, I just can't help but think if we had more—like the working-class intellectual or poet or the kinds of people I remember from my youth, we wouldn't have the disenfranchised—the disgruntlement we'd have now among the working-class who are caught in the torpor of a, what, a stagnant economy or whatever. I mean— Well, I've always struggled with that. You know, I wondered what happened to my generation of the 60s and their kids. And you know, many of my friends who I was in college with and law school I'm still in touch with, and their kids are doing very interesting things. But unlike the generation of the 30s, who became kind of the middle class of the 50s and 60s, we haven't really asserted ourselves as a group generationally in the way that I would have hoped we might. And so you have this horribly fragmented society, and I look around, I see what's going on in this world, and my dad, when he died at age 95, the last thing he said to me was, you know, I'm so sad that we really didn't change the world. And— But isn't it terrific that he thought he could? Well, he certainly did think he could for most of his life and never gave up the hope. You know, I took him to an anti-war demonstration when he was 94 in San Francisco, and he delighted everybody he met. He was a guy, you know, who was literally a legend in his time, and he was out there on a demonstration in San Francisco. Well, that's terrific. You know, that reminds me of some demonstrations that I've been on and where I've gotten the opportunity to speak to. I don't think there are any more living members, but members of the Lincoln Brigades, and they're great. They're the greatest, you know, guys. They have all the stories. They know everything. You know, they're the very underpinnings of everything I believe in anyway. Well, actually, you know, I mean, many of your listeners might not know what the Lincoln Brigade was, but the Lincoln Brigade was comprised of Americans who went as volunteers to fight in the Spanish Civil War in the late 1930s, mid to late 1930s. And, you know, those were my parents' closest friends. But for the fact that my father had a very responsible series of jobs during that period, I'm sure he would have gone too. Right. It's, you know, the boyhood. I mean, I'm obviously a girl, but I mean, the childhood mystery of going to war for the right cause and doing the right thing. And it really is, I hope it's not forgotten. I hope people don't know what the Lincoln Brigade is and know what the Spanish Civil War was like. I mean, I hope they're still reading at least Hemingway or something like that. I hope. Yeah. I don't know. Who knows. So what are you doing? So now, what does your practice consist of? It's still civil rights, right? Well, basically, we do civil rights litigation. We do a lot of cases involving police brutality. We do cases involving mistreatment of prisoners in prisons. We do a variety of cases involving kids in public education, some in private education, but primarily public education, special education, and kids who need mental health treatment who aren't getting it. Right. Kids who are abused in those programs. For some reason, I don't fully understand, we've had a whole series of cases where special ed kids have been abused at their schools. Really? And most prominent of which was one where a little six-year-old boy was strapped into a chair every day and restrained there. And that case is coming up for trial in a few months. But we do those kinds of things. And then whatever else comes along, you know, most recently we got a lot of publicity around a case where I represented two women who were set upon by a police officer and arrested for kissing in a store. Oh, well, that's a very famous story, the lesbians from California, I think, weren't they from California? Right. They were sent to them? Yeah. Oh, bravo. You know, I mean, we get all kinds of things that come along that we do. I did, this last year, we did the Ho'opili and the Coa Ridge cases to try to block developments which we're going to destroy, are going to destroy the best agricultural land in the state of Hawaii for reasons that I can't fully comprehend. So, you know, when somebody comes to us with something and it's just something that tugs at our heart and, you know, really makes us want to jump in, we more often than not try to figure out a way to do that. A lot of those cases don't pay us, some do. We end up putting on a lot of money on cases. Right. But, you know, we somehow survive. You do. You know, that's astonishing. I remember, I had one interaction with William Kuntzler when I was in law school and he told me I should come and work in his office and he said I should come and work in his office, especially if I had a Lexus password, so I guess he was also in the position of however he could make a go of it, he made a go of it. I'll never forget my interaction with him, because I said, I'd love to be a civil rights lawyer, but I can't. I don't have money, whatever.  He and I worked together on many things. We were very close and, you know, we used to have that discussion. How do you support yourself? Bill used to do, on occasion, he would go off and represent some mobster who would pay him and I would see this in rolls of $100 bills and that would sustain him for a few months and then go off and traipse around the south or the rest of the world doing things for which he wasn't getting paid. And, you know, basically you struggle to find sources of income. In my case, at least the last 15 years or so, I'm able to do it in large part because my wife, after we already had kids, went back to school and went to medical school and makes, you know, a good living as a doctor. That's terrific. So, you know, I'm able to basically work without having to worry about getting paid and I'm able to weather the storms because we do go through months and months where not a whole lot of money is coming in. Right. And the overhead, I have an office with three other lawyers who work for me, so, you know, we've got to pay the expenses, we've got to pay for expert witnesses, we've got to pay for depositions. Right. And, you know, the other thing about my practice here in Hawaii, for the most part, since I've been here, is that other lawyers refer cases to me, even cases which they know that there is a potential to make money on. Right. Even those cases, even the ones that you can make money on.  They don't want to do medical malpractice cases involving prisoners because those cases are valued less than other people's cases. That's really... So, you know, but in the long haul, we get a lot of those cases referred to us. Virtually all of our cases are referred to us from other lawyers, which is the best source. We get a lot of junk cases, but we do some of them. You know, I've taken cases, one I took up in the last five years up to the Hawaii Supreme Court was over the loss of a thousand dollars bail. And my deal with the client was if we won, we'd keep the money if we could get it refunded. And we did win. And it made a lot of money for a lot of other people because it reformed the whole process of forfeiting bail. But you know, we did it over a thousand dollars because we were offended. This guy was acquitted and he lost his bail money because he didn't do the proper paperwork at the proper time to claim it. But that's great. That's great.  I work with prisoners. And it is true, prisons don't get adequate legal representation. I mean, typically they don't have much money and everybody's innocent. They don't have any money. Yeah, right. And you know, so that's one of the neediest groups of the most underserved groups of people. It is. They're also very difficult because a lot of them are con men. They're in prison for a reason. Right.  That's right. And you know, we get six, eight, ten letters a week from people in prison who want us to represent them. And we filter them because we have to. We can't possibly do all of them. But you know, they have a lot of things that happen to them that in my view are unjustifiable and are cruel. I agree. I think that the civil liberties are breached quite frequently with no mind, frankly. I'm going to take a quick break. Sure. We're going to take a quick break and we're going to come back and talk more about civil rights, civil liberties with Eric Seitz. I'm Mary Ann Sasaki. You're watching Life in the Law. With a variety of guests about various international issues, historical issues both here in Hawaii and abroad, range from security, human rights, ethics, and all sorts of other things. So please join me. I look forward to talking with you and seeing some of my guests. Hi. My name is Kim Lau. And I'm the host of Hawaii Rising. You can watch me every other Monday at 4 p.m. Hi. My name is Aaron Wills. You are watching thinktechhawaii.com. I am the host of the show, Rehabilitation Coming Soon. You can watch us live at thinktechhawaii.com at 11 a.m. on Tuesdays. I will see you there. You're watching thinktech Hawaii, meeting people we may not have otherwise met, helping us understand and appreciate the good things about Hawaii. Great content for Hawaii from thinktech. Hi. You're watching Life in the Law. I'm Mary Ann Sasaki. Delighted today to be talking to Eric Seitz. Do you prefer Eric A. Seitz or Eric Seitz? Doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter. So we were talking a little bit during the break, and we were talking about how you're viewed in the legal, well, not in the community at large, let's say, and the legal community because, I mean, you have a very distinct position, a unique position. And so, is there a blowback or? Well, let me just step back a little bit. When I first came here in 1973, I came ostensibly to teach at the new law school in the second year of the law school. When I got here, I was told by the dean that the job was no longer available to me because the regents had imposed some restrictions that I couldn't qualify. And you know, that was, in the aftermath, I had just finished a huge case in which my client was in the Navy and had been court-martialed in San Francisco for sabotaging an engine to prevent his aircraft carrier from going to Vietnam. And he was acquitted after a year-long proceedings. So, you know, I was identified with all of that very thoroughly and when I came to Hawaii, there were certainly not the welcome mats out for me and apparently somebody found out that the dean had hired me to teach, and so I never did get the job. So you was sabotaged. So that was the, exactly. So that was the first experience. And in those days there was also a residency requirement. So I couldn't just walk right in and start practicing.  And then opposing counsel would come in and they'd all talk about their kids going to school together at Punahou or Yolani, and when are we going to play golf again? And it was very obvious to me that I was the outsider. But, you know, as time progressed, I did a whole bunch of very controversial, very highly publicized cases in the 70s. I did a couple of huge military cases that received a lot of publicity. And I was involved a great deal in the Koholavi cases where people I represented virtually all of the people who were arrested by the Navy or the Coast Guard who went to Koholavi, except a few individuals, Walter, Riddie, among them, who wanted to represent themselves. So I was involved in all of the things that were going on that were on the forefront of any kind of political controversy. And the thing that, you know, I think probably got me in the door was that the judges and opposing counsel were very complimentary and very impressed with my abilities. And so I developed professional relationships with a lot of people which then led to them referring cases to me, cases that they thought needed to be done, but they didn't want to do them. So they really actually appreciated having somebody in the community who would do things that people thought needed to be done but they didn't want to do themselves. And so that enabled me to sort of take on a role where I handled certain kinds of cases that somebody else would really want to do on a regular basis. And of course those were cases that generated a lot of public interest and publicity and people would comment you're always in the papers, you're always on TV, you know, and there was some little bit jealousy and there was also some criticism about maybe promoting yourself. But I never have promoted myself at all. It's just the cases with controversy. The cases are interesting and the media likes to cover them. And so, you know, it becomes a situation where if there's something controversial going on, everybody just assumes in some way that I'm going to be involved. And, you know, for example, if there's a police shooting, inevitably the case gets referred to me. Now, I may not take it because I may have problems with a particular case, but I'm always basically given first right of refusal on these big controversial cases. How great to have that kind of reputation, I mean, to be viewed as the best. I mean, obviously you're viewed as the best, you should see Eric Seitz, he's the guy. Well, it's very, it is very complimentary. And I'm in a position now where a lot of cases will settle because people don't want to go to trial with me. So I'm able to help the clients get good outcomes without having to go to trial. Right. We struggle with certain places and with certain offices like the corporation council in the city and kind of Honolulu and some of the attorney generals. But, you know, again, I'm able to cut through a lot of those things and get good results for clients. And I also have been teaching now for the last several years since the obvious wafer became the dean at the law school here. One second. Avi, I've asked you on my show many times.  Go ahead. Avi has, you know, gotten me into teaching constitutional law. Oh, great. And actually the last time he and I taught the course together and it was just delightful and the students reveled in it. They had a wonderful time. But so I have, you know, a number of other things. So people come to me and say, well, something else happened. You're not involved in it. What do you think about it? And I'm asked to express opinions. And again, that's, you know, to me that's a compliment because they think that, you know, maybe I have something to contribute. It certainly is a compliment.  Well, you know. It is a compliment. You know, I've been involved in some very big cases. I was one of the lead counsel on the Felix litigation some years ago, which was a billion-dollar effort to reform children's mental health and special education. And, you know, at various times I've represented mayors and governors who have come to me for advice, sometimes behind the scenes, sometimes not. And, you know, so it's very interesting that I've developed a role where people may disagree with me politically, but they come to me because they want whatever I bring to the table as a lawyer. Yeah. Well, that's really heartening to hear that it's not, you know, it's not a matter of ostracism if you have, you hold a radical position. You can still be a, have a good place in society and have a respected place in society. It is. I'm very heartened by that. You know, and I had no idea how that would develop because when I was in law school and coming out of law school in the late 60s, my colleagues who felt the same way as I did struggled to figure out how are we going to make a living and a great number of them couldn't make a living and just gave up practicing law because they were so frustrated which was kind of a tragedy. Now, that also coincided, I think, with changes in the times. Absolutely. But I've been fortunate that I've had people who've supported me who've helped me along the way and I, you know, my credibility speaks for itself and that's very nice because one of the things I've always told people is that if you're going to be in a controversial position and this is something the old left used to practice as well and preach, you have to be above repute yourself. That's right. That's right. You have to be honest. Jesus' wife. Exactly. You cannot mislead people. You cannot be in a position where people distrust you. Or Bob Dylan, to live outside the law, you must be honest. That's... Correct. And so, you know, that's always been very important to me.  I always tell my clients if we're going to pursue a case, we've got to take the high road to pursue it and do it, you know, do what we do openly. Oh, that's terrific here because, you know, I think clients encourage the... You know, also, well, I'm in business, so it's a different ball game. But they don't understand that we're officers of the court and not more than officers of the court. We're moral beings. We have integrity and we actually enter the law for these... Because we had these qualities, frankly. So that's great to hear that you can practice in such a hard area and still retain your integrity. It's, you know, it's always a challenge. I have been hauled up before the Disciplinary Committee on a couple of occasions on the most prominent of those occasions. I was referred to the Disciplinary Counsel's Office after I made some uncomplimentary remarks to the media about the Chief Justice and the Supreme Court of the State of Hawaii in a very controversial murder case, which I ultimately won. And in that case, we told the Disciplinary Counsel, you know, I made these remarks. They're critical of the court, but we stand by them. And if anybody wants to proceed against us, we'll cite the First Amendment and the truth. Yeah, I don't see the ethical violation there, really, to be critical. I mean, you're not compromising. Well, I said some pretty nasty things about them, but... Oh, good for you. You know, eventually, the case went up to the Ninth Circuit, and the Ninth Circuit said virtually the same things in their language that I had said to the media earlier.  It was very interesting. That's very satisfying. It was satisfying. So do you like the courtroom?  I'm a paper writer. I'm a brief writer. But do you like... Does the courtroom atmosphere give you... excite you and give you energy? Yeah, for the most part. I'm very at home. I'm very, you know... I'm very jazzed when I go into court. One of the things we do is we prepare very well so that, you know, that we don't have kinds of mistakes that undermine the confidence that people have in us. I love to do appellate work. We do all our own appellate work. So I've argued before the Ninth Circuit probably 50 times, and before the Hawaii Supreme Court, almost an equal number. And, you know, I always have good intellectual experiences. Right. And when I came here, actually, the federal court consisted of Judge Sam King and Martin Pence. And it was, by far, the most intellectual and most challenging and best federal court in the country. Really? And, you know, after the fact, people used to tell me that Judge Pence and Judge King used to argue about who would get my cases, because I would bring these, you know, draft cases or other cases into their court, and it was very different than the run-of-the-mill. And they used to love the intellectual exchange, and people used to come to arguments. And, you know, these were two very smart guys, and we used to have arguments which is just like what they told you in law school would be. Right, exactly. That's the fun part. Right. If you can get it, but it's so rare, right? Right. So, you know, I've had enough of those kinds of experiences, similar kinds of experiences before the Hawaii Supreme Court, which is conducts arguments at a very high level. Really? That's interesting. That it's been, you know, it's been sufficiently stimulating that it keeps generating interest and excitement. And what about the new talent coming down the pike? What do you see? Do you see there a different way of practicing, or do they have different expectations? It's disappointing to me that I think the collegiality that I saw and developed when I first came here, you know, over the first 20, 25 or so years, doesn't seem to be there. Really? I think that the younger generation of lawyers are not as cordial, as respectful. They're much more interested in winning and winning at any cost. And, you know, everybody now has to confirm everything in writing and everybody distrusts one another. And it makes for a very less comfortable kind of occupation where you have to look over your shoulder and worry who's coming for you next.  I say that in the best possible way. I mean, there's not enough, there's really not enough people behaving in this way. And you remind me of my youth and you remind me of just the things, the kinds of political positions that I've always loved and the kinds of people who I've met through them. So I really appreciate your coming today. It was fun. Yes, and if you have any parting words or be more collegial, young folks. Well, you know, I would love to encourage people to do the kind of work that we do because it's so satisfying. Do it. The clients are wonderful and, you know, you get a lot of gratification. And it's righteous. It's the righteous thing. But, you know, there are not a lot of people who want to take the chance, the economic risks, the political risks to be associated with controversial causes of action. And my hope is we can find a way to do that more. And, you know, my students at the law school, when we talk about some of the constitutional law cases that I've been involved in, seem to be more excited and maybe there's some hope that, you know, that they want to do these kinds of things themselves. But I think the path to doing that is not easy these days. No, it's because of the great cost of law school and... And practicing. Yeah. But it's very rewarding. So, yes, go and try to do the right thing. Don't do as I did. Do as I say. Do as Mr. Seitz did. And if you're just a practicing lawyer, contribute to those local causes that you feel are important. At least you can be contributing for the right thing for the right reasons. So thank you again. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I'm Mary Ann Sasaki. I'm watching Life in the Law, Wednesdays 1 to 1.30. I look forward to seeing you next week.