When it comes to strength training, you have many options, most notably free weights and machines in today's episode. We're going to talk about the best machines or to be more clear, a machine only workout that you could do for your body, utilizing the machines that we deem to be the most effective. I like this. This is different. I mean, well, we all we all we're so negative about them usually. I'm trying to be nice on this. Well, you know, and I think it's important to explain that, right? Why I think because the benefits of free weights are just and barbell training is just is just far superior than training on machines, regardless of what you hear on the internet and the arguments that are there. And we've talked about that at length in other episodes. But I do think there's time where you're traveling or, hey, I've been training this way for a long time. This is a nice interruption. And so I think the idea of putting together a workout that one of us would do at a gym where we're not going to do any free weights, what would it look like? What machines would we choose? Why might we choose those machines? Yeah. And how would we put together a really good workout?  Like there's definitely a few machines I'd probably steer towards more so than others. Yeah. Now, ideally, and I know a lot of times that they're the question is posed as machines versus free weights. And we've had episodes like that. But the truth is a good, well-balanced routine, especially one that you follow for years and years and years. And hopefully that's the case, right? Hopefully you start a workout routine and you never stop. You always follow it. It shouldn't use both, right? Machines and free weights because using them both gives you the best of both of both worlds, ideally speaking. But there are times when you might want to just do machines. They tend to be faster, easier. Big box gyms will typically have these machines that we're going to talk about to be available. And they're just, they do feel different. There are pluses and minuses. A little less damaging, I would say a little bit. Yeah. So I've been now using primarily machines for the last maybe six weeks on purpose. I've never done a machine-only workout for any length or period of time. Typically when I do it, it's like what you said Adam when we're traveling. And I'm noticing a few different things. Of course, they require less stability and support than free weights do, which means that you're not going to gain the same stability and support type of gains or strength that you get from full weights. However, the other side of that is it's less damaging. I mean, when I do a press or a row or whatever with a machine versus it's free weight counterpart for the same reps, same intensity, right? Let's say I'm pushing them both really hard. It just damages the body less. Now that allows me the ability to train more often. I'm less likely to over-train. I could do more sets, add more volume. Of course, that means with free weights, I might be able to do less and get the same type of results, but it is, it does cause less damage.  Sometimes you're tired. Sometimes you're overstressed or sometimes you want to work out longer, which is what I'm doing right now.  Yeah. I think we've always recognized that there's value, especially to if you're rehabbing and there's limitations with your function at the time. So you have to be mindful of certain, certain amounts of ranges of motion and, you know, your capacity with that and being supported in positions like in seed positions. And I think like that's where machines really shine in terms of helping you to still express your muscle contraction and get blood flow and still kind of that really does then aid and contribute towards rehabilitation and healing. So, you know, there's benefit with that. And then to the fatigue point, like you do get fatigued with free weights and then it becomes a little bit more risky because if you can't really brace and really control your body to its full degree, you know, that you kind of leave yourself open for injury sometimes. So I've actually trained for an extended period of time like this for a long time, way too long because I came from that camp of like feeling a muscle, right? That was like the best way to build or work a muscle was like how well could I target it and feel it and you know, there's one of the great things about machines is do a good job of targeting specific muscles. Oh, it's why bodybuilders like machines. Right. It's easy to isolate a muscle on machine because everything's supported. Yes. And so I definitely was in that camp for a long time. Now, the reason why I think we probably haven't done this episode and why we talk primarily towards like why everybody should be training and lifting free weights is because like all of us at one point had figured out like I've seen the difference and it's like a drastic difference of the gains that I got from training free weights in comparison to all the years of training on machines. And so I definitely way more a fan of teaching my clients freeway training, but there are places for training like this. So I'll still interrupt my freeway training with a day like this occasionally. And a lot of that time is when I'm either one felt like I've overreached and I've trained too much and so I'm kind of sore and so I want to go in there. I'm not trying to reduce intensity or if I've just been consistent with freeway training for a while and I hadn't done that or if I'm traveling like those tend to be the reasons why I would interrupt my normal training cycle now with this. Yeah. I think there's also a lot of value for the advanced lifter because the advanced lifter when you've been practicing with strength training for a long time you're able to activate more muscle fibers with a set than somebody who doesn't have that same experience. And so using a machine isolating a muscle group and then pushing the intensity you're going to get some good hypertrophy benefits. This is why what you'll notice with high level bodybuilders is they typically start with free weights. This is where they build the majority of their muscle and then they start to move more to machines as they become pros and get even bigger and larger.  You don't have to stabilize as much and balance as much on the body allows you to finish training the rest of your body. Now for for someone who's not a pro bodybuilder whatever is listening right now it's great to combine the two. So now you can look at higher volume workouts lower intensity higher intensity and you can start to piece these things together. This is why workout programming can sometimes be so complicated because all these factors come into play like a squat machine versus a barbell squat same volume same intensity same tension not the same effect on the body different considerations for what exercises you follow up with how many sets you do and so on like one of the big things I noticed with machines is I push the intensity harder and I feel okay like if I go to failure on a machine it does not feel like going to failure on free weights and this may be why sometimes we hear in social media these fitness influencers say you always have to train to failure. I wonder if it's because that's what they train primarily on and they notice that that intensity needs to be to be a factor for sure it could be and so and I'm finding myself pushing that intensity higher with machines than I would with free weights but the isolating part is a good one like if you sit on a machine and try to isolate your rear delt or try to isolate you know your triceps or you know your upper chest or you know mid chest or the mid back you're not worried about stabilizing controlling you're not worried about you know having to hold your body in particular way you are there you're set in that position in fact when I would train clients I would often use machines to teach a client to contract the muscle in a particular way move a particular way so that later we could we would have some of the strength to then be able to do the free weight version of that particular exercise. Now you talk about you know programming and why it can be very nuanced right but there are some rules that still apply regardless if we're talking about free weights or machines and one of those would be how you prioritize exercise selection right you know we started off with legs I do want to explain though to the consumer that's the general population that might follow this is that you know we or we prioritize them in big muscle groups right so most of your energy goes to like a leg a leg machine but if you were someone who had a specific body part that you were trying to develop that would take priority to put that first yeah so just keep generally speaking you would start right start with legs right and move through to the smaller muscle groups and you'll get better results this way now this is a full body workout and you could follow this workout two days a week and you could get away with this workout without developing muscle imbalance or anything for a good six weeks or so and you'll probably get some some decent results but you will want to mix this up at least after that period of time because it's the same exercises over and over there is no stability component and you may start to develop movement pattern issues. Today's giveaway is maps power lift to enter to win leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it subscribe to this channel and then turn on notifications if you win we'll let you know in the comments section also this month sale maps anabolic and maps anabolic advance are both 50% off if you're interested just click on the link at the top of the description below all right back to the show now the first exercise we said legs and this week we discussed a little bit about whether or not we would put a leg press here or a hack squat I think those are the two best lower body compound lift exercises that you could do that will produce guys kind of the biggest bang for your butt most muscle most strength most performance I think initially I thought of a leg press because you could really load it substantially but in you guys talked me out of it with the range of motion it's true get a superior range of motion with a hack squat so you can express that you know a little bit more effectively and really get that post here chain a little bit more I also thought that we you know we agreed on on machines that should be in pretty much every gym right because there's examples of like I mean I would love a belt squat machine right here oh yeah yeah I know but not easy to find no not easy to find at all I mean it's rare to see them in a gym but I mean it would be awesome but reverse hyper yeah the idea and really I think what we thought about was like man most everything in here would almost be in a hotel gym I mean yeah you know most of these exercises can be staple machine yeah they're staple machines in every major commercial gym and so as the listener that might be go oh man I would do this because you have some really cool machine at your gym that nobody else you know one thing I want to add before we continue in our time of working in gyms which has been a while now I've been and I've been working in gyms for two and a half decades we saw the emergence of plate loaded machines which didn't exist before before machines were selectorized meaning you move the pen and it was a weight stack and then all of a sudden hammer strength they were the first ones yeah to come out with a loaded hammer strength and they became very popular because now you think to yourself what's the difference if you add a plate to to a machine versus moving a weight stack well the difference was hammer strength tapped into how tension works throughout the body and it mimicked free weights more than machines in other words with a press or a row what you'll find is one portion of the rep will be easier than another portion of the rep versus most cable lead you know selectorized machinery if you put 75 pounds on the on the machine it's 75 pounds from the beginning to end whereas with a hammer strength or the plate loaded when now there's lots of plate loaded equipment what you'll find is it'll be loaded it'll feel the heaviest at the part you're the strongest and easiest at the part where you tend to be weakest because the the way that they design them with the angles and the leverage the free weight will get heaviest or opposed gravity most at the times when they're most opportune this actually makes plate loaded machines more effective in my opinion in many in many in many ways and we will talk about one particular plate loaded piece of equipment here but a hack squat I you know we think it's better than a leg press because the range of motion I mean do a leg press see how far you move the platform do a hack squat see how more how far you move the platform it's just a greater fuller range of motion and it more it's probably has a little bit more carry over into the everyday world because it's mimicking a squat whereas a leg presses you know I'm on my back pushing something away from me which you don't really get to might as well be in a recliner yeah just like throw some weights yeah I've seen I mean and have you guys are I've seen I've seen someone if you if you can hack squat really good way you're sometimes a decent squatter yes there's some carry over into even the barbell squat there I've seen people that could stack and load the entire leg press that can't squat 225 so that there's there's no stability in the war it is just they're always the biggest peacock it's that different I mean it's that different that you could get really strong with the leg press and yet still can't even squat 225 pounds you you start pushing three 400 pounds on a hack squat you're probably able to squat 225 barbell back squat so there's a lot more carry over I think to it too so I think that's just another example of why that why we chose a hack squat over leg press next would be a seated or lying hamstring curl now here's an exercise you can't really mimic very well yeah with three weights yep there really isn't a a leg curl I mean I guess you could do like a what's a no what's a Nordic curl yeah good luck doing that are really challenged unless you're really strong yeah a lot of skill involved you could do a physio ball leg curl yeah but you're not getting the same yeah well it's stability and both those are both those are great movements right not to knock them but one of the things that lying leg curls also keeps tension on the muscle the entire full range of motion to where you lose that with Nordic curls you you're at the top of the curl it's much easier the very end is extremely difficult and so finding a range where you can actually complete the rep and then actually still get a good workout all the way I'm curious so you guys more prone to doing the seated or the lying I personally prefer doing the lying hamstring curls you know what I I enjoy both I don't I don't I like the seated because the seated puts my hamstrings in a more of a stretch position at the end of the motion so I feel more lying to stretch yeah interesting I don't think it's a big difference although both of them are loading it a little bit differently but the main motion is the I think I think this the seated is easier to have better form the lying you people's hips tend to shoot up and come off of it and they also tend to move and flex their their feet and their ankles and so it ends up filling it in their calves or they let their hips rise off so it takes a little bit better or a little bit more technique to do the lying I think I feel like the seat is really easy to do but I'm with you I feel the stretched more in line I like both I mean I these are actually movements that even if I'm training mostly free weights I still will have this this is one of the few how do you work the leg so there's the hamstrings I mean there's there's there's a few heads of it but one part the leg bicep you really only work when you flex the knee like fully and you can't do that with freeway now deadlifts the flake of deadlifts remain deadlifts I mean you work the whole hamstring hinge but yeah but you're not getting that leg curl yeah you know that that which is why that still this is one of the few that actually still find its way into my free weight training total I'm still going to do this exercise next is the cable row another exercise that I would say if I was only doing free weights I would inject cable rows in there I like cable rows because you can load them there's still a stability component but you're not bending over holding a weight which requires a lot of stability like one of the drawbacks we could also make it a plus but I'll say one of the challenges of like a barbell row is you need to be able to stabilize and hold yourself back yeah while rowing the weight yeah with a cable row the positioning you're not fighting gravity you're still fighting the weight but it's even easier to stabilize yourself now what I love cable rows with clients because to get a client to depress right bring their shoulder blades down and back to get that nice open chest squeeze back position teaching them in a bent over position with the barbell row or two dumbbells is so hard it's like it naturally makes them want to roll the shoulders for it's valuable for anybody yeah even if they're like a beginner or not a beginner like just to learn how to combat a lot of the daily habits that we have of reaching for things in front of us sitting you know with their protracted shoulders to be able to get back in good posture and retract the shoulders and keep that chest high but then also reinforce that by strengthening it they feel an immediate difference in a good feeling of so this is maybe and I'm trying to rack my brain right now go like is was there a time that this isn't true but as far as I can remember this is true these the single most used exercise I'd ever done with every single client I don't think I've ever had a client I did not teach the room fact is the first back this is the first exercise I would do a lot of times just a moment it's such a teaching for my assessment yes cable for overall posture even before I go we talk so highly of like things like the barbell back squat if you're if your client doesn't know how to retract and depress their shoulders to even set the bar on their back yeah you want to be able to bench press yes yes so this is such an incredible movement that I would say if I had to go back and assess what exercise did I use the most out of all exercise in the gym I'd probably say the CD cable room yep like there was okay or how old you were okay what your goal was this was a staple movement that I either use to teach and get you going on it or there was a staple movement in your routine for trainers this is invaluable because what you do is you put your client position you have them sit upright and it's not hard for you of course get the permission from the client to place your hands on their shoulders and help them move in position and move and contract and get this nice full squeeze in the mid-back which they probably haven't felt for a long time it's try doing that with free weights you can and I've done it but it's really hard because now you're battling gravity you're fighting them trying to round their back and they have to learn how to hit on bracing properly yes yes well and it directly opposes what everybody is almost like everybody is challenged with I don't think I ever trained a client that didn't have some form or another of forward shoulder and forward head and so we just we do everything in front of us that that movement is so important to develop those muscles that bring the posture into that position that it was a go to it was a starting for everybody it was a staple exercise I kept and so that has to be in this now for just pure muscle building also up there this is also a great exercise for just general overall muscle building of the back now as far as handles are concerned there's a lot of different handles and people make arguments for each one the the traditional narrow handle I think is probably the easiest yeah for most people to use if you go real wide now you can get more upper back and rear delt now that stuff but just in general cable rows got to be one of the best ones agreed all right next up is a plate loaded chest press now I wrote plate loaded here instead of machine selectorized because when hammer strength is the first one to really do this but what you'll what you'll notice when you do these is first off the way the resistance feels as you press the weight up allows the weight to feel heaviest at the end where you're strongest lightest at the bottom where you're not a strong so follows this natural strength curve which we know through training with bands and chains makes a big difference also hammer strength was the first one that I know of at least you know in mainstream to change the angle of the press so that your hands are further apart at the beginning and they slowly come together at the top which is like if you're if you understand what the pecs do they bring the upper arm the humorous into centerline so rather than pressing straight out which a barbell fixes your hands right so you still get that motion but with a with a plate loaded because the hands come together you actually get a greater range of motion this actually makes it a pretty damn good exercise for the chest yeah now did you guys have a favorite as because what's kind of cool about these is they have you know the upright vertical press they have the incline version of it even have the flat least that the gym that I was out they had the the flat where you lay on your back yeah that's my favorite yeah I like the one really in your back yeah if you can get a hold of that one that's my that's the best I always see the incline the most I think yeah that's what I usually do that's probably my second favorite right so if I had an old pick if they if the gym had a lying on your back press then I would do that then the second one would probably be inclined now here's a here's a you know kind of a side note I like the sitting up plate loaded chest press for my elderly clients my clients with high blood pressure my clients had trouble laying on their back and for trainers watching this you know if you're watching this you don't work out you think what do you talk about you take a client in their fifties use out of shape or sixties use out of shape you have them lay on their back it's some of them came out of it so then they'll pass out yeah and sometimes they came to touch their head to the bench because they have such bad forward head and you'd have to put things underneath their head a sitting up chest press made it easier for me to get them in that motion of course the goal was to get them to be able to lay on their back at some point all right next up one exercise on the Smith machine I love that you had to put this in here I wouldn't have the bathroom and then somebody's yeah if you press if you go back if you go back far enough on the podcast you've heard me talk about that especially body building days when we would talk about the Smith machine and I know we would roast it a lot of times and I agree I admitted that I love I used to love doing it for shoulder press because I didn't need a spotter for it right it's like an exercise that I could really push the weight also made it great for strip sets or drop sets which I love to use it for too so I actually really liked the Smith machine for shoulder pressing which is I believe the original purpose of it it's been used for a million different things now because like everything else in the gym we get creative with it we make up exercises that you can do on it but was that the first I believe that it was yeah it was designed for upper body and I think primarily for shoulders was what it was originally for I have to look up the creator of it but I remember when I'd see people doing lower body movements on it I'd always comment on like that's not the the the intent the creator of it did not intend it to be for lower body exercises do you do it with the back supported incline where you bring it all the way to vertical when you're pressing yeah so I'll have like it well I mean I actually like just like just a slight yeah slight incline so it's way way higher than a chest incline but it's not quite fully 90 degrees right and then I can get that way I can bring the bar all the way right all the way down on my call this is why I like the Smith machine seated press it's most bodies can do it whereas machines sometimes if you're too tall too short doesn't work and it's a barbell so you can move your hands in and out again fitting most people and it's a nice full range of motion overhead press in fact the Smith machine seated press was how sometimes I would teach a client to be able to get full extension if I put them in a seat that supported their back and then had them press up and so this happens too with a lot of clients they don't get they can't get that full extension it can't get it all the way up then what I would do is I place my hands on the barbell I'd press it up for them and pull their hands up and then I'd see if I could let go and create a nice isometric contraction I remember clients like that and it was always a tell for me when I would see them go to press and they would lift their heel yes and you realize that like that's just a natural inclination is to get higher up your body just kind of comes up isn't that funny yeah by the way some Smith machines I'd say I'd say a good percentage of them now don't just move the bar straight up and down what you'll notice is there's a slight angle to the to the to the barbell this is actually beneficial when you're doing it overhead press when you press up with the barbell you bring the weight up and then you kind of bring it back over your head for nice straight position with a Smith machine that goes straight up and down if it goes in front of you it stays in front of you some of them many of them now actually have an angle to where it actually ends up directly above your head when you press it up so if you have the option get the one that has a slight angle most people didn't even notice but that would be the one that I would yeah again though this I mean the idea picking the Smith machine was knowing that every gym has even your hotels have a Smith machine because I mean you can make the case for like a Viking press I think is one of our favorite I wish you could but I mean again you don't you don't see so I know again there's going to be people that hear this and like oh man this shoulder I will get put an honorable mention if you're learning to do an upright row for your shoulders Smith machine is a great way to learn it because you're it's on a track and some people have a lot of trouble trying to figure out what to place their elbows and do an upright row Smith machine makes it a lot easier although the free weight version is I think superior next up for triceps this is much more common nowadays in fact I rarely ever see a normal gym that doesn't have this machine in the past it was actually quite rare in fact when I was a kid if I saw one of these I'd run to it it's a dip machine you actually see is quite a bit now where you sit in the chair you grab the handles behind you and you push them down I like it and they usually have like the plate load of ones where it gives you that support yeah you put your knees on it what do they call oh you're talking about oh you're talking about the gravatron gravatron or the knees supported one so I mean yeah I mean just because honestly like it dips it seems like it's a very simple exercise a lot of people have a hard time with the strength involved in a dip and so if that's your issue and you know a lot of our alternatives is like like taking a rubber band and kind of helping aid in that support but you know a good machine they have for that is is pretty helpful yeah in fact I would say that's the best version they have that a lot too that's a common that's a pretty common like different versions of that but basically the the gravatron or whatever that supports the knees when you do that that's the brand name by the way this is the actual machine yeah I know there's a bunch of different ones that they it's the one you just don't do the the leg extension version of that turn that into influencers exercise I mean part of why it it's up there for us too is it's it's it's like a compound movement for your triceps right so it's such a great as such a straight such a great movement and why would we not do kickbacks or overhead extensions or pushdowns like those are all isolation movements and you get so much more growth and gains from doing just you get good range of motion the shoulders yeah you get some nice functional development in dips in general are one of the best movements you could do for the upper body and most people can't or I'd say many people can't do a good full-body you know I body weight dip when I when I first started lifting I I'll never forget the first day getting our gym membership and my buddy took me over to a dip bar and I couldn't even do a single one dip I couldn't do I couldn't didn't have enough upper body strength to do it and so avoided it for a really long time it wasn't until coming back to it later on and realizing how much benefits come with the dip yeah all right next up would be a bicep exercise and this has got to be the easiest machine to find any gym because I think any gym will have it it's a preacher very popular a preacher curl machine for the biceps now preacher curl because I think it's easy to set you in position lock your elbows in place work the biceps I will say this every machine by the way has a a axis of rotation or a joint in the machine that you want to line your joint up with to make sure you're in the right position because your arms may be longer or shorter and with the joint of the machine then you'll find your wrist in hand doing weird things as you're trying to to curl the weight up I a preacher machine is actually another one of those exercises that even as I moved away from a lot of machine training it's still found its way regularly in my routine just because even though you can do a freeway preacher curl the tension is different yeah when you're on the machine you've got you got full tension the entire range of motion through the movement where when you're doing dumbbells you get that great dumbbells stretched position but then when you get the top of the preacher curl I mean you can sit there all day and and hold that in that position where when you're in the machine you've got that tension still there you can you're in a flex position so one of my favorite exercises to do now you'll notice we didn't put calf machines here because most people use calf machines anyway when they work calves and core because I don't know about you guys but have you guys ever used a good core machine it's always contract it's always hip flexor very yeah I've never found a good set you up for success no you know I find cables you could not only that but I also feel like your core because that you're your your core muscles the primary is to stabilize right the spine and support your posture it's such an important thing to learn how to do just your body like to be able to do that like to to fit in a machine just to to build abs so my abs look good is one thing but it's that that your core muscles through functional movements of just your I think is superior anyway so even if I was trying to I mean and you don't need anything you do like you do reverse curls laying on the ground or full ever sit up crunches have yet to use invent a machine that really no in fact I've used core machines and I can make them work my core well because I know how to make my core do the work I have never seen anybody go in one of those and and do it and not you know so they feel it once the flexor for teeth yeah and their abs feel tired from stabilizing but that's it alright so sets in reps you can do because these are machines you can go up to four five sets of each of these exercises and you want to keep your reps in that eight to 12 rep range although cycling through lower and higher reps is probably a good idea especially if you follow routine like this for longer than just a few weeks that being said the way I use it is is the way you just prescribed it though which is I'm going to I'm going to do 100% I mean I'm they're really low rep for machines yeah and it's not that you can't do it and it does have video there's plenty of science to support there's benefits to that it's just use it for that for this application the way we've explained how we all integrate and use machines this is like a day where I'm going in there and I'm doing 10 to 15 rep range and I'm going to do probably four to five sets of each one of these exercises look if you're a hard gainer if you have trouble building muscle gaining weight hard gainer guide it's totally free you can also find all of us on social media Justin is that on Instagram at mine pump Justin I'm on Instagram at mine pump DeStefano and Adam is on Instagram at mine pump Adam


I'm a senior product manager with MyFitnessPal. Those of you who don't know what MyFitnessPal is, it's a health and fitness app that really helps you with any goals that you have, be it nutrition, be it weight loss, or any other things that help with calorie and nutrition tracking. So a little bit about me before we go into today's topic. I actually started out my career as an engineer. I worked as an engineer for a couple of years, but I got an opportunity in my own team where there was an opening for a product. It wasn't really an opening. It was like they needed somebody to take it. So I kind of just volunteered, and I really enjoyed that work and enjoyed how I was working with customers, working with product, working, developing a vision and strategy, and that's when I decided to make a move. So that's how I worked with a couple of different companies, Wall Street Journal, Salesforce, and Atos, and now MyFitnessPal. So now I've been in product for a couple of years and love to share my thoughts with you. Honestly, the today's topic is what's your product not star? So there's a lot of information online. If you go and even research this, you might find a lot of content. So I'm really just focusing on my learnings and what I have learned and some tips that can probably help you as you go on in your journey. So today's agenda, yeah, well, what is, what do I mean when I say products not star? Why is it important as a product manager to worry and think about it? Some examples of good and bad and then some learnings. Before we get into it, just a quick exercise. Let's imagine we all of us are product managers at Airbnb for one minute. And what do you think is important for Airbnb? If you are a product manager, what metric would you care about if anyone wants to take a shot at it? Rentals, yes, like number of rentals that people do, yeah? Anyone else? Yeah, like number of listing, number of rentals, number of times people make a booking on Airbnb. That's kind of what generates their revenue and everything, yeah? No, these are actually a great example. And to be honest, as a product manager, that's probably what you would care about in your day-to-day. But think of it for one second. Does Airbnb really care about that? Think of it not just for one year, but think of it five years or 10 years. Do they care about number of rentals and do they care about how many people are booking with us? Is that sustainable for five years or six years or 10 years as their strategy? So that's kind of like where the North Star comes in. Even though you know that the company, this is what they're focusing on right now, as a product manager, it's really your job and your responsibility to think what is, where is the company going? So for example, let's say Airbnb, yes, that's what they focus on right now, but if you've seen Airbnb's trajectory, not just from booking, they're moving to experiences. So it's not just about how many rentals, but they're actually thinking, okay, how can I make the user feel like a local when they visit some place? So it's really like driving their strategy into different experiences and what's their goal and how can they achieve it? So every feature or every project that the product managers work is kind of towards that goal. Okay, so just for fun, let's do Spotify. Now that we've talked a little bit about North Star and you want to take a stab at it, what North Spotify is aiming for in five years? Music at any moment, so music everywhere. So that's kind of what their goal. And if you even do more of case studies and see about Spotify, they're even moving towards where the creators can actually have their own autonomy here. So it's not just our user base, which is people listening, but it's also for people creating it. So that's kind of how people think and honestly, North Star doesn't have to be something that once you've set it and you've started a company, this is your vision and it has to be the same. Like I'm sure Airbnb and Spotify started with different kind of what the things we talked about, but now they're digressing and they're changing based on where they are and where they're in the stage of their company. So it's really important to keep thinking about where do you want to go? And to be honest, as product managers, it's very easy to get lost in everyday features and everyday things that you do and not think about how it impacts the organization. So that's kind of what we talked about today. All right. So we've been using this word of North Star. What exactly is it? What do we mean when we say North Star? Is it vision for the company? If I say my vision for the company is, I want to reach 100 million users for my fitness pal. Is that a North Star for my company? Right? Exactly. So it's more, but you would more often than not, you would see that companies have retention as their metric or conversion as their metric. But it's really important to know that what the North Star is actually that emotional moment or the a-ha moment for the user that, oh my God, this is what I want. This is the product I want to use. If I go and tell a user that maybe this product is something or this product is, there are 10,000 people who use it, do you want to use it? It's not really relevant to the user and they're probably just going to ask me, what do you want? Like what is the product? So it's really important to connect with the user that this is my moment. And that's where that would come in. For example, in my own company, my fitness pal, we talk about that, yeah, it's about tracking and calorie and weight tracking. But again, what actually connects with our users is we tell them that we'll help you reach goals that you don't even know you have. Because honestly, a lot of people don't. We have to educate them about their nutrition, about their health, to know, okay, this is what I want to do with my health. So it's kind of going beyond and seeing not what just the current problem is for the user, but seeing what actually emotionally will connect with that particular user. So let's go. So why do we care about, kind of we already talked about it, but why do we think not store is important? It's not a real number. You can't really measure it. You can't, if you go in and tell your other leadership in the company that, oh, I want to just, like how Airbnb said it, I just want to build experiences for users. The biggest question is going to come up, like, yeah, but what about it? How do we grow our business around it? How do we do grow our strategy around it? So there's no right answer. It is not the flashiest number. It's not something you can say, oh, I have these 10 billion users that I want to convert. You can never say that. But if you don't have Nordstar, you really don't know where to go. And taking a simple example is just in the name. Nordstar is not the brightest star, but it is what gives you direction, tells you where the North Pole is. So you kind of need to know where are you going? And not just you, as a whole organization, you need to know where you're going, and not just the metric that you're following right now. So a different case study. I'm pretty sure everyone's already familiar with Facebook and maybe MySpace. So since we know Facebook is such a successful billion dollar company, and MySpace miserably failed in the same space, does anyone want to again try why that happened, even though their vision was the same? They tried developing a platform for social media, but they thought that the users are not going to be very open with messaging or open with their own, releasing their identity information. But Facebook took a stab at it. They did their customer research and realized that people are okay with it. So they actually built a longer term vision to get there. The second most important thing is, even though MySpace realized, if you see case studies, and honestly, don't take my word for it, but there are many case studies that say that MySpace realized that this is not going to work, but they did not iterate. Just because they thought that that's their company vision when they started, they didn't change it. They didn't realize that, okay, the market is different, the users want something else. They just kept trying to improve what was currently there. Another example is like Netflix versus Blockbuster, very similar reasons. So this is kind of my overview of why NotStar is important, how you can actually think about it, how you, why is it important in your company, and as product managers, honestly, it is your responsibility to think about it. Because if you don't, there's no one else who's going to do it. So there's one person who has to be responsible for it. And these are my learnings from my own experience that I learned and I wish I had kind of thought about them more earlier when I started as product manager. So first and foremost, if you're starting to think about NotStar or think about vision for your company, you have to think that you're building it right. And it doesn't mean that you have to be right at the first time. It just means you have to just try enough and just in the end be right. So it's okay that if your vision is wrong and you completely wasted a lot of time, but then you're building it correct. You're building and you're learning and you build it correctly. So let's start from scratch. Let's assume you're starting a company or you just started or you just joined a company, which is the startup. They don't have a vision yet. Yes, they have an idea of what they want to build, but there's no perfect goal at the end. And as product managers, honestly, we get very excited. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna start building all these features. I'm gonna start working on this. I'll get engineers and designers and everybody. And I'm gonna have something shipped very soon. But what if it's not a market fit? Like we haven't even thought about whether our vision or our NotStar that we think we want, is that even a market fit? Do users even want it? Do they even care about it? Kind of like how we go back to Myspace. So it's really important that before you spend all your time and energy into building something, really make sure that you validate that you're building something correctly, that there's a market for it. Second, and I cannot stress this enough because even I have found myself doing that, is that there is an unconscious bias, generally as humans and honestly as product managers, we wanna be right. So when you do research and when you develop the strategy or if you find yourself asking the questions that kind of prove yourself right. Even if you do customer research, you're asking questions that are biased because you have your own hypothesis to it. So again, I don't have a solution for it. It's just something to keep in mind that. I haven't perfected it. So it's just something that you have to keep reminding yourself that the solution is not to get it right. Not to validate what you think is right, although it would be good if you're right, honestly. But that's not the whole motive in the end. So try and avoid asking leading questions or just validating your research in a way that you think would lead to a hypothesis. And then third, tell a story or a vision that the user actually understands. We as different people in the company or as the tech people might have a vision that we understand. It's really possible that everyone in the company also understands the vision. But if it is not communicated correctly to the user or in a simple way, no matter how amazing a product you build, no user's gonna come and see it. No user's gonna come and come to your product and actually feel like, oh my, yeah, I wanna use it. So there is a way to think of your notestar which is from business perspective, but you also have to think it from user perspective. What is understandable for them? What is easy for them? Then get the basics. Honestly, I just again wanna stress more and more on this part that don't jump into things, spend more and more time in thinking what do you wanna achieve? And it doesn't have to be that your first intuition is right, that this is what you wanna do with your product. But that's honestly the difference between a good and a great product manager that you keep thinking about your vision. You keep thinking about your long-term goal instead of your everyday thing. Because let's say even if you start in a new company or in an existing one, there's so much going on. You're working with so many stakeholders. You're working on new feature requests. You're working with all the other disciples like sales, marketing. It's very easy to get boggled down and you don't have time to even think of it at a higher level. But I would still stress it that take that time out, doesn't matter if you have to compromise on something else because honestly no one else is gonna do it. So you have to make sure that you are spending time on making sure what the vision is. And think long-term. Think three months, six months, one year, honestly five years. Think any long-term that you think would be validated for the company. Communicate. Communicate is a word we often use for product managers that it is very important. Why is it important when you're thinking about your vision for the company? So, okay, you have to take ownership. Like how is it, in a typical company, when you're setting vision, how it works is that people in leadership or yes, you may as a product manager might be involved in setting up a vision for the company. But then as it boggles down and it goes down into different engineering or it goes down into different sales, marketing, people have their own understanding. And everybody is thinking of what they are doing instead of thinking of who actually owns the vision. And usually what people rely on, oh, somebody set the vision, they don't know who. It could be product, it could be leadership. But they have no idea. So honestly, you actually have to take ownership even if it's not given to you, which kind of with most of the things with product are, you don't have authority, but you still have to do the work. It's the same, you don't have ownership, but you still need to own it. Otherwise, you can never ask the hard questions to other people that why are we doing this. Always anchor stakeholders. This is also part of communication because like we talked about, the stakeholders, all of them have their own goals. Sales have a goal of like, sales may be running a promotion or marketing is running a campaign. Engineering is probably doing something that's related to tech debt or even building features. Everybody is doing their own thing, but you as a product manager have to have to keep repeating and keep getting that vision into everything that everyone is doing. Because honestly, you are the center of whatever is going on. You're working with all these disciples. If you don't pay attention to if the work is actually related or does it converge to the vision, nobody else is gonna do it. Third, reflect and repeat. I know I've said it multiple times that think about like, keep telling these people, keep telling everybody that this is a vision, this is a vision. And it can sound like, oh, but how am I gonna do that? And when is the right time to do it? Or is it even right to repeat it so many times? Honestly, yes. It's, there is no number of times you can not repeat it. You have to keep repeating it to everybody because people tend to forget. They wanna do what's right in short-term. They wanna achieve short-term goals. So you have to keep repeating that this is not our goal. This is the goal. If people are digressing, you need to kind of pull them back and get them aligned into what your vision is. And lastly, things will change. All of my criteria is saying that nothing's gonna change.   You spent enough time building a vision. Honestly, you might have spent even two quarters building a vision. And then something changes. It's possible you have, we have less resourcing in the company or it's possible that the user mindset has changed or it's possible there's a competitor product in the market. Things will always change even if you've done all the things correctly that we talked about. So just be prepared for it. You'll always be compromising on speed, quality and cost. But even in this three, don't forget that you don't have to compromise on vision. You can compromise on speed, you can compromise on cost and other things. And as you work on more and more products, you kind of develop this intuition of what to trade off. But it shouldn't be your vision. It shouldn't be something just because of a small term or a short term benefit. It rate as your product grows. If something has changed, don't stick to what we already built or don't hang on to it sentimentally. Just let it go and kind of build it again or just improve it. And lastly, we talked a lot about that this is what the vision should be and this is what the qualitative should be. But don't forget the quantitative too. Even if I just go and say like for Airbnb, they want to build experiences. Yes, they do and that's a great vision. But how would that vision go down into metrics? Am I going to get these experiences through new users, through existing users, through converting new people or through retention? So even if you have a good vision, think of quantitative too, that to achieve that vision what's important.


Welcome to a very special Tuesday talk here at the Berkman Klein Center here at Pound Hall across the street from the Berkman Klein Center As with a lot of our events on campus. This is being live webcast and recorded. Please just keep that in mind When if and when you ask questions, which I hope you will toward the end. I have the Privilege and the pleasure of being able to introduce Professor Susan Crawford and Chairman Tom Wheeler this afternoon As I'm sure you know Professor Crawford teaches here at HLS works with us a lot in the cyber law clinic and works a lot on issues related to telecom and as well as civic innovation government innovation and helping cities think through data smart governance and policies and Joining Susan today chairman Tom Wheeler who spent three decades working in telecom on both the business side and law and policy side in November of 2013 he was appointed by President Obama to the position of FCC chairman where he was Unanimously confirmed and his tenure at as FCC chair was one of extraordinary accomplishment on a wide range of Issues and is particularly well known for ushering in the FCC's final rule on net neutrality in April of 2015 Which I'm sure is one of many things that Susan and chairman Wheeler will talk about Without further ado, I'm gonna turn things over to Professor Crawford and FCC chairman Tom Wheeler. Thanks so much. Thank you Is indeed a signal pleasure and honor to have Tom Wheeler here as the country Goes through this whirlwind of the last few days the 31st FCC chairman a proud graduate of the Ohio State University and a recipient you got that right the Ohio State University and a recipient of its Alumni Medal a former president and chairman of the National Archives Foundation a student of history cares about America's documents and America's future and America's past and the most consequential FCC chairman since a 35 year old newt minnow Went to the Sheridan Park hotel to the lion's den to the National Association of Broadcasters in 1961 the beginning of the Kennedy administration and told those broadcasters that they were supposed to be serving the public interest Interesting concept. Is that something so Tom Wheeler told four companies that want to control our destiny is that they should be serving the public interest as well and It was active in a huge range of issues as Chris mentioned So Tom, I know that Someone you revered was your grandfather Pretend you're speaking to your grandfather right now someone with absolute compassion and affection And tell them what you're really proud of in your tenure at the FCC. Oh, what are you really proud of what you do? So, yeah, I think that that I think we did a lot of things. Okay But let's start with the base you notice when I said we did a lot of things, okay?  I mean the people who are making the music and playing the instruments are the people who were doing the real work and and We were just incredibly fortunate To be able to attract to the Commission a team of new senior folks bureau chiefs Folks in the office of the chairman general counsel etc to work with a Really strong staff. I mean there are really dedicated really bright Really caring people on this day after the FCC. So what am I proudest about? You know, I got to work with them I mean, I I so I went around on the last couple of days and I met with every bureau And I said I had one thing that I said in common to all of them And that was that that I was proud of the fact That I was able to say I was their colleague Because there's a lot to be proud of in that agency So that's I think you have to put everything in perspective because it basically boils down to what's all about people now Really what you were going for is how do you know? Let's talk about net neutrality. Let's talk about privacy The human pride here, but it only happens because of the people Yeah, so you mentioned a small struggling educational institution called the Ohio State University When I was in graduate school there, I was assistant alumni director and my job was the care and feeding of woody haze It was a fabulous experience care That's that's an overstatement my job. My job was that that I would I Traveled the state with the coaches including woody and so I got to know woody haze up close and personal, you know And it was son. Yes, coach You know But what do you used to say you win with people?  So here's where we are When I came in two-thirds of the schools in America did not have fiber connections. Yeah, and the third that did Did not have Wi-Fi only half of them had Wi-Fi to the students desk the latest report out of Education Super Highway says that 90% of the school districts in America now have a hundred that's the standard of 100 megabits to per student to the students desk terrific that's because of a team that worked together to overhaul a program that originally been envisioned by Al Gore but had at Trafeed as a narrow band program that wasn't making sense in a broadband world But no, I'm very proud of that big one and revolutionizing the idea of subsidizing Low-cost phone service changing that over to high speed internet access, right? That's and that and that's that's So so we've always had a program where Well, it started in the Reagan administration, but we had a program that that that subsidized Low-income Americans to be able to have phone service because how you get dial 9-1-1, right? and But same story it at at Trafeed as Dial-up telephone service when the world had gone broadband So how do we make sure that the same kind of concept? Support subsidies for low-income Americans for broadband, but the champion for that was Commissioner Mignon Clyburn She was the person who was constantly constantly pushing on that and she was she was my conscience on that issue it's a wonderful issue and There's some things that didn't happen before we get to the title to discussion The Comcast Time Warner cable merger So Yes That didn't happen and and T-Mobile Sprint We had dinner last night with former assistant attorney general for any trust Bill Baer and his deputy Renata Hesse and then My two key folks who had been involved Phil Brewer and John salad and we had dinner to reflect on Not only the substance of the issues we had worked on but again back to this people angle. I Don't think there'd ever been a better working relationship between the antitrust division and the FCC because we all shared a common belief and We all liked each other and liked working together with each other and A lot of learning on both sides everything. I've heard No, I mean there was some The Comcast Time Warner decision Broke some new ground Privacy So There's a really simple issue that that I think that that We're going to have to face again because of the new administration and that is that Privacy is a civil rights issue of the 21st century of the connected era Let me give you an example of it so so we had We had for decades Rules that Applied the telephone companies That said that the information that Was transmitted in order to set up the call Could not be used by the telephone company so for instance If I call Air France Verizon can't turn around and sell that information to some tour operator or hotel company in Paris But that doesn't exist in the broadband world So you had that strange situation? Where your smartphone? If you used it to make a voice call Your privacy was protected if you use that same device and the same network to go on the web and go to the Air France website Boom that information was for sale It was not your information anymore the very fact that you had used the network meant you were giving that information and we said no This is the consumers Information and so we put a rule in place that said that the consumer gets to make the choice as To how the network is going to use the information And that was another one of our three to two votes We'll talk about party line in a bit. I want to get there. I'm still ticking off the great of the talking about The idea of labeling an internet service provider as a common carriage title to entity that was pretty big and What was it okay, I've always wanted to know what is it like to hear from 3.7 million Americans Does that feel like Well, they they crashed our servers Exactly And and and you don't always want to hear everything they say about you, you know I've heard more descriptions about what I could do to myself with a pineapple But But the whole the whole open internet discussion a debate was a was was fascinating and and and for me And you were part of this because you and I were on the phone discussing this For me it was kind of a Damascus Road experience So you go back and let's put it in perspective that Twice before the Commission had tried to do something and twice before The broadband companies the carriers Builders of the court and the court said no, you can't do that and so let's see I walked in in November and in February The court came down with a horizon decision that threw out the previous attempts at open internet and And it seemed to me that the court was leading us in a certain direction built around section 706 and the protecting what's the virtuous circle of If you have good broadband that will drive more services Which will drive more broadband and the job of the Commission is to protect that so initially my my Proposal was that we should follow what I thought the court was trying to signal to us at the same point in time I asked in the in the notice proposed rulemaking asked about title 2 and and other ideas It became clear over the debate That the discussion that that wasn't gonna be sufficient the 706 wasn't gonna be sufficient and And you know people like to point to to John Oliver and you know I will show you one thing here that this might my Daughter gave me this is my oh, that's great. This is my cell phone case. It says I am not a dingo But um But the dingo is inherently funny no matter what ding is inherently funny until you stand up and say you know I have decided I'm not a dingo. That's not fun. Do not mess with a guy who is funny for a living, okay? So but so One of the things that that you and Chris didn't mention in my background is that I was I was the CEO of the wireless industry Association for a dozen years and in 1994 1993 The wireless industry went to Congress and said Please make us a common carrier But be and put us under title to but because title to was designed For a different era with different technology less competition, etc remove a lot of these old Requirements that are in that were entitled to and Congress did that and the Commission followed through and the wireless industry went like this and so, you know the summer of of 2014 I guess I'm going through options and it's kind of Section 332 of the communications act which is which is this Structure that I just described for the wireless industry is the perfect model for this Yes You can you should be a common carrier with all the responsibilities that come with being a common carrier But at the same point in time you can forbear from some of the more ridiculous things, I mean, you know the statute says you got a Accounting rules and who's on your board and who you can buy from and all kinds of things including ex anti-price regulation, okay and We can forbear from that and Let's take that as the model of how we implement title to in a broadband world And that was the decision that that we ended up making The we were we were constantly working through the various iterations of it The president of course came out and said that he was a strong title to supporter and and so we were able to Put together three votes you and uphold it in court How about that a very strong decision there with a very strong decision that was that it is was it was crucial for them So third time We got it right because we did this way and the court strongly agreed with us So I've got a quote from you recent speech You've said recently those who build and operate networks have both the incentive and the ability to use the power of the network to benefit themselves Even if doing so harms their own customers in the greater public interest We're hearing from the Trump administration today that they're looking forward to getting rid of 75 percent of Regulations on the the idea is that they inevitably dampen innovation and investment What's your view of that claim the dampening of investment by regulation? so Part of my experience Is that I've made the same argument when I was an advocate. How about that? So Let me tell you a story I Was see you with a wireless industry association and I I was proud of the job that I did both at At the cable association when we were taking one the broadcasters They were trying to shut us down and in the early days of wireless when I was at CTIA the least proud moment of my public policy life Was when I opposed the commission's efforts to Have local number portability So that and that means for humans if you decided you could take your your if you wanted to switch your service from AT&T to T-Mobile that you could take your number with you didn't used to be that way And that was imposed by regulation and I opposed it and you know Saying okay, so I mean how we're gonna pose this can't exactly go out and say hey You know we think it's a really bad idea that consumers can't we can't leave us and they're trapped in their current carrier Because they can't they given everybody the telephone number that that's not an argument. That's a real winner So you so so the argument I made was oh Installing this is going to take money that should be spent on infrastructure and expanding connectivity and and and Fortunately that didn't sell Like I said I regret that that activity Um But I'm but I'm guilty of this so the it is going to slow down our incentive to Invest is kind of the first line of defense of everybody and it's Balderdash. I Cleaned out. That's a strong word.  You can make a return off it So but the facts speak for themselves Since the open Internet rule went in place broadband investment is up fiber connections are up usage of Broadband is up Investment in Companies that use broadband is up and get ready for it Revenues in the broadband providers are up Because people are using it more The reason why you invest is for this reason right to generate More revenues and a good return on those revenues and so so the oh my goodness It's gonna be a terrible thing for investment Is is just kind of the first refuge that everybody looks at or everybody makes and you have to look past that As a student of the Civil War, you'll remember that one of the big prizes of 1863 was chat nougat Railroad hub three railroad lines two big rivers two mountain ranges What role did Chad nougat play in your tenure? Set up, you know that was well done. Thank you. That was real. You want to talk about the cracker line that brought in the supplies after they We're gonna get there, but let's start with something related to telecom so My good friend Susan Crawford Says to me when I Took this job that I should bear three things in mind. I wrote these down. I kept them on my desk The first was to return the regulatory ideal that there is a legitimate role for regulation To benefit the broad scope of the population Second was that We should have a legitimate Credible definition of what broadband is because broadband used to be defined as four megabits a second, you know, that's hardly broadband And the third was to tackle the outrageous practices That the ISPs the internet service providers the telephone companies and the cable companies We're doing where they were going around the country and going to state legislatures and Getting state legislatures to pass laws that Prohibited cities in that state From building their own broadband network to compete with them, and you know when I thought hey, you know if the people through their local government Decide they don't like the quality of service that they're getting They ought to be able to organize through their government and say I want something better including the government building it and so We sued chat nougat was the was the was the case study of A Tennessee law so we sued North Carolina and I'm sorry.   It I you know It's just incredible. I love this thing called competition Private citizen Tom Wheeler the Legislatures of Missouri and Virginia just introduced new snarling bills along these lines. What would you tell a? sincere earnest state legislator today about those bills We will hear like top two points be to that well, I mean first of all that that that they are That the people do have a right To come together and say I want something better for my city and the second political point that I would make Is is it's not really the Chattanooga's where this is a big challenge. It's the Wilson, North Carolina's And it's the areas where the people who voted for Donald Trump Do not have access to the internet and are not getting access by the existing companies and They're the ones who are fed up with the system and have voted to That they that they were fed up and you need to be responsive to that They would vote your way. Yes, right Because you were I mean that's it we're still wrestling with this in such a big way that ten you're ten times more likely Not to have access to reasonable high-speed internet access in a rural area than in an urban area and if we add together wires and wireless You're just not going to get it in rural areas at all So we have a lot with a lot of progress and this is the idea I mean I think that one of the messages that people were voting for in this campaign is I want Power back to me. I want decision. You know the whole thing about drain the swamp is get the power back If the government closest to the people is saying Our people would like to have better broadband Then who's to say no? Talk to you about the vision of the FCC because now we're going to go through the crossroads. I love looking back but let's let's let's walk on the design of it as a FDR agency was it could be expert agency Insulated from politics Of course not Okay, many of the staffers people who are working at the FCC or there's a lot of flow back and forth between the hill people have Been staffers end up as commissioners Lobbyists end up as staffers.  Thank you.  We would just do a rule in that a technical issue So Anthony Fox the secretary of transportation And I are on the phone Because he has the responsibility to the FAA of How consumers behave on the plane I was just doing the technology you don't need because there's an interfere anymore because they put pico cells on the plane and He says well, this is cool. We can work this all out. He said you take the technology I'll take the consumer will solve it. I said that's fabulous. I said I'm testifying tomorrow in Congress at 10 o'clock And they're gonna ask about this. Let's make sure that we've got our Our language down is exactly what you and I have just agreed to because our staffs that work on that. That's great But an hour later Somebody comes in one of my staff folks comes in and says well I just got a call from the general counsel at Department of Transportation. They can't do it. It was overruled by the White House Now make a very long story short there was somebody in the communication shop at the White House that didn't like this idea The White House ended up approving it. I went and testified, you know things move forward But the point of the matter is that I made the decision Looking at the guy in the mirror in the morning and The cabinet secretary had to run it through the apparatus of whites and it's a former White House staffer You know how that works so so the ability to have an independent agency to Make to be an expert agency and to make independent judgments is really important that does not mean That it isn't a political agency, which is your question and in particular Having an agency that for the vast majority of my term was dealing with a Republican Congress That didn't like what we were doing That Headache that helped politicize the activities at the Commission the So it's it is a it is it is an independent agency that of course commissioners Read the newspapers like the line of the Supreme Court, right? Supreme Court reads election They respond to letters from Congress It's an agency made up historically of one agency being glued together with memories of another agency essentially Now people are talking about taking it apart modernizing the FCC is The lingo being used What's your thought about that? It's a fraud? Keep talking So so it's interesting so I actually it was going through some papers this weekend And I ran across a september 2013 article in the Washington Post the headline of which was something to the effect Here's how the networks plan to defang the FCC and It quoted all of the the the cable and telephone company Washington office heads saying that Really that the consumer protection and competition work of the FCC should be transferred to the FTC the Federal Trade Commission and and It's no surprise why they want it to transfer there that the the FTC Doesn't have rulemaking authority They've got enforcement authority and their enforcement authority is whether or not something Is is unfair or deceptive so first The only Regulation that they would be subject to would be say a an adjudicatory finding that That it's unfair or deceptive one two You got this agency over here the FCC that is constantly worrying about all things in telecom the FTC Has to worry about everything from Computer chips to bleach labeling And of course you'd want to get lost in that morass where okay, we'll get to that We got to get bleach labeling taken care of first um and And and so this was their strategy all along so what's what surprises me would know what doesn't surprise me is That then the Trump transition team which was basically folks from American Enterprise Institute Who were folks who were true? It's not even funny who were who were longtime supporters of This concept come in and say oh we wanted we ought to do away with But there is but the story gets even more interesting So so first of all it makes no sense to get rid of an expert agency and to throw it over here in an agency with No room-making that has to compete with everything else that's going on on in the economy And can only deal with unfair deceptive because we're talking that one sixth of the economy, but more importantly we're dealing with The network that connects six six of the economy But here's what's really bizarre and the story how the story really gets interesting we in the FTC brought an action against AT&T and The FTC using their unfair deceptive Standard us using our broader capabilities and AT&T took the FTC to court and Said you don't have authority the stat the FTC statute says that common carriers are exempt from jurisdiction of the FTC Now this is the same company that previously in this Washington Post article had the head of their washroom office arguing how it should only be the FTC that has jurisdiction over their issues and the court said Yes You are right and not only are you right about the FTC not having jurisdiction over common carriers The FTC doesn't have jurisdiction over the non-common carrier activities of common carriers So now we have a situation where the carriers and Their supporters at AEI and Inside the Commission are saying well, we should transfer everything to the FTC Which is a result of a Ninth Circuit decision on a case brought by the same people that are arguing it should be moved Doesn't have the authority Go figure, but that's not modernization. No, that's just hiding. That's just hiding the people Yeah, it's like escape velocity, but no no coverage at all There's this you may not have heard but there's a new chairman of the FCC really. Yeah. No. Yeah, it just came out Ajit Pai and you know, I can't tell who he is because I got these press releases and they seem to be talking about two different guys So from the NCT a Which used to be called the cables your cable association now it's called the internet and table television association Michael Powell is saying during his tenure on the Commission chairman Pai has consistently demonstrated a common-sense philosophy that consumers are best served by a Robust marketplace that encourages investment innovation and competition We stand ready to assist chairman Pai to ensure that America remains a global internet communications and entertainment leader That's one Ajit Pai the other Ajit Pai according to free press He's been on the wrong side of just about every major issue that has come before the FCC during his tenure He's never met a merger. He didn't like or public safeguard. He didn't try to undermine He's been an opponent of net neutrality Expanded broadband access for low-income families privacy all kinds of issues and he's been an obstructionist Who get this has always been eager to push out what the new presidential administration might call alternative facts in Defense of the corporate interests. He used to represent in the private sector. I Listened to a radio interview of you just a couple days ago when you said that a Commissioner Pai canceled all the meetings that you said with him True So I had a when I came in You know, we're a five person commission. Yeah, and and the The chairman sets the agenda and the chairman is the CEO But there's four other commissioners that are important to relate to and it takes three votes to do anything So I set up with every commissioner that every other week. We had a date on our calendar that That was an hour for the two of us just to sit without staff And talk about You could talk about baseball if they were to talk about baseball but talk about the issues of the day and what are the concerns and how do we work our way through serious problems and And Commissioner Pai and I had had early on a lot of those meetings But for the last 18 24 months, he's canceled every meeting So, you know my the only point I was making on on marketplace was that you know, it's it's hard to work for Consensus when you won't sit down with each other time will tell I suppose With the next the next steps. I think that's coming up right away is the AT&T time order merger And there's two Donald Trump's on this one, too There's the Donald Trump in October who said this is a destruction of democracy And then there's a Donald Trump of last week who said after meeting with AT&T. I got to get some more facts We'll see. Do you have any guesses for us about what's likely to happen with that merger? Well AT&T has now Designed the merger to avoid the FCC I think the Commission probably still has some jurisdiction, but I don't make those decisions anymore But no my so as somebody said in the other day, I have lost the Windex to my crystal ball Oh, good line. I Have determined that you have something in common with Donald John Trump. You may be surprised to hear this It is the exclamation point because your first book take command Exclamation point that leadership lessons from the Civil War So this have this is the Harvard Leadership School you may think it's the Harvard Law School is actually the Harvard Leadership School and I wanted to get your Reflections on leadership in this role because I want everybody to understand what it takes To run an agency with $388 million budget and 1700 employees and I thought I could tie this again back to the Civil War and Have you talked to us about Ulysses Grant? So you don't have to talk about yourself, but you could talk about general grants so That must be a model General grants my hero And not just because he was from Ohio The first chapter in the book that you cited Is called dare to fail And I think that that's the first rule of leadership that What the book says is that if you if you prepare for failure you will no doubt succeed And one of the things that was so great about grant Was that Was dogged in His I just won't fail. I'll get this done So and and so he's always been my hero so my I've got a little Consulting company that I had before the Commission and I've just Reopened and it's called Shiloh group And why is it called Shiloh group? It's called Shiloh group because It was probably the definitive battle of grants career and He lost on the first day. He got creamed and That night And everybody expected him the rebels expected him to Retreat and melt away But he didn't study brought more troops up You all came in and save the day, but that night William Tecumseh Sherman Finds grant sitting under a tree Whittling working at his frustrations on a piece of wood And he says well grant We've had the devil's day Grant looks up Quip them tomorrow, and he did And and persistence is The key and Ulysses Grant was a great model of persistence General Lee and General Grant. I'm gonna keep going with this both went to West Point General Lee graduates top of his class no demerits General Grant number 21 out of 39 plenty of demerits Common you're asking the guy who barely got up Ohio State Well, there you go Moral courage so so You know when you can't you can't criticize We you can criticize him for being on the wrong side, but you can't criticize him for being a great leader and Wow, that's a really good question. So look, I think the bottom line is this It is what you make of things. Let's go back and let's take Ulysses Grant after he left West Point He distinguished himself in the Mexican War He met Lee there. He met Lee, but Lee didn't remember He Lee was a hot shot. He was a quarter master He was a Lee was a hot shot engineer because he you know graduate first in his class He then gets Posted to various remote posts particularly out West where Julia his wife can't come with him And he starts drinking and they drank himself out of the army. He came back to St. Louis where his wife Julia Lived with her parents were and tried to take up farming that really didn't work He was reduced to selling firewood on the streets of St. Louis Wearing his old army greatcoat selling firewood. He finally Went back to work for his father in Galeta. He and his father never really got along that well to be a clerk in the in the tannery He was passed over for early Leadership roles in the Civil War McClellan was one of the guys that passed him over and so Failure failure failure failure and then all of a sudden And and so the point is Okay, so you fail right move on That's the great leadership lesson of Ulysses Grant Another part of this is that Ulysses Grant wrote to his wife Julia every day when he was away from her and They were both invited to see my American cousin by President Lincoln the night of April 14th Julia got spooked so they left speaking of leaving Washington to Philadelphia. Oh my Sigway here as you walk away from the portals What's that like to be the chairman walk out and no longer be the chairman What does that feel like? So well first of all you you get you get a long time you get 77 days to work up to it, so it's not it's not a big surprise The You know you walk away with this this incredible gratitude for the fact that at a time of such incredible Incredible change in how Americans communicate that you got to be the guy Who sat there and dealt with how Americans relate? to those changes because you know the The people who say the problem is government So wrong I mean the government is the people it's where we come together to solve our common problems and boy It is a messy process, and it's a painful process But if we can't work things out there We're in a whole hell of a lot of trouble And so the fact that I got to sit at the head of that agency and these incredibly Changing times and to say how do you look at these changes in? technology economics how people connect a Make sure that the public interest is represented was a terrific privilege So I walk away from there proud and I could do it with the people that I did it with How fortunate can you be and as we're about to think of your questions are about to turn to Q&A here But what are you most worried about there are millions of people marched over the weekend? If they knew it they would be marching about telecom as well What what should they be doing? What should people worried about the the concentrated market the high prices the inadequate service all of that be doing in America? the most powerful asset of the 21st century By the networks that connect us Networks have always been important and now that you know the railroad drove the industrial revolution Networks have always been Been been crucial and the network that will define the 21st century is our broadband network As I said We had jurisdiction over one-sixth of the economy, but six-sixth of the economy use that network And I've always used this phrase that how we connect defines who we are both commercially and culturally and so that connection and Whether or not it is going to be controlled On a gateway basis By essentially for companies for Is an existential question for American commerce and culture and And I am worried about what that future looks like and what Is amazing to me is how far it is how the Commission and seemingly the Congress want To do things in behalf of these four companies That will have an impact on tens of thousands of other companies and millions of consumers And I just don't think the debate has gotten to the point where people recognize we're talking about You know fewer than half a dozen companies here and how should you make policy? and and and that's That's my that's my concern. So there's a public education Huge opportunity. All right What do you want to ask German Wheeler? Yes? Mike is flying through the air towards you It's coming If you today have been replaced What about the people who are working under the Civil Rights? Commission jobs What percentage of people in the FCC you mean the civil civil service government employees and Does Trump think That he can just change everybody Well, I'm the last guy to ask what Trump thinks But the reality is you're absolutely correct that that the vast majority of Employees at the FCC or civil servants I imagine that the new chairman will bring in as I did a new top tier and They will be the ones managing those civil servants Yes, they have to follow their directions What do we the American people including the people in this room need to do to protect net neutrality? Well, thank you for asking the question. First of all I think that there are two things one We need to be heard But two we need to be heard in different ways than before You know they they as Susan says 3.7 million Emails and and comments to the Commission They were pushing on a door that was already open the door is locked latched bolted, you know and welded right now So the battering ram, I think the battering ram is Is to paraphrase you know Madison had this great line in Federalist 10 where he said that ambition must be made to counteract ambition And this was the whole concept of how the government was was was set up Economic ambition is what is driving these handful of companies there must be economic Ambition that counters them and so what we need is we need to hear the voices of Those that will be affected yes, the small startups, but also the big companies You know GE GM if they're so let's just go through a couple of things artificial intelligence and machine learning What is it? It is it is the connectivity of all kinds of database resources If that connectivity has to worry about gatekeepers What happens to AI? The Internet of Things The Internet of Things is going to change the whole economics of the Internet I believe from up from up from a push environment to a poll to poll Economics we can talk about that later if you want but but but Who will be deciding which things get connected and on which terms so so if one of the carrier says wait a minute I like my things better, and I'm gonna price differently to them that I am this competitive Provider of this service. What does it mean? And we've seen they already do that with a zero rating on video So this is not a hypothetical, you know awful things so so we need to be Making sure that the companies that are affected are delivering the message because I think that's what the Congress will be most responsive to This is great we answered every question Hey, I think my colleague probably asked this question better than I could but I'm just gonna do it So we work at summerville community access television so I wanted to know Couple things one is sort of what is the role like how can community access television play an important role? And what do you think what do you predict can you predict? I know our Windex isn't working anymore, but What the new chairman what his perspectives are on public access and how we might stay protected it's great questions and You know when I was at NCT a that was a great supporter of pig public educational governmental access And we actually got it codified in the for cable act and Things have changed a lot since 84 There have been some intervening legislation some ruling by the Commission. I don't know where a jeep pie is on That issue. We never we never had a Occasion to discuss it So I'm sorry, but good for you for what you're doing the diversity of voices is So the beauty of technology Is that it has created the opportunity for a diversity of voices that is also the bane of the technology because If you are not using things like peg to express yourself there are others who are using The opportunities for diversity voices to do that and the other thing is that we need to begin to become Our own editors where we used to Outsource the editorial function to NBC or CBS of the New York Times and Now anybody with web access it has as much reach as any of those and It's going to force consumers to be Better Consumers of information and I think we'll get there, but we're certainly going through a rough patch right now Sorry First net is Congress's effort to create a fifth cellular network for public safety right we got three million price sensitive picky cops and firefighters Maybe 12 if we stretch it to second responders, but the break even for a network is about 40 million users in Britain They said priority preemption and quality of service had to be provided by the carriers I can't see a way through to success for first net and this network in the country Do you have any vision of how this will end up? Well first net has Has been controversial since the day that Congress like it was a decision made by Congress championed by Senator Rockefeller in particular and And it has evolved to a point now where They are going to be buying services from an existing wireless provider And we'll be getting the kind of Priority service that you were referencing is available elsewhere in other countries It's going to be interesting to see what happened we had we had three jobs With regard to first net one was to make the spectrum available. We did that To was to make sure that they had seven billion dollars to start the process We did that out of auction revenues and three was in the coming year. There is The option of states to opt out of first net and we were to be the judge as to whether a State should be allowed to opt out and that's a decision that the PIA Commission is now going to have to make and that's Going to be key because for instance if New York opts out or California opts out Or or Illinois opts out or Texas opts out the nationwide network collapses And and that's something we have to live through and I don't know how it's going to end up Last question anybody yes Question around a wireless spectrum if one looks at the on one side the the public benefit Revenues from auctions Being able to just have communication and the other side the rights of spectrum holders and There's been a lot of controversy in this area with bankruptcies spectrums is never used Do you have any thoughts on do we have the optimal model for how we? License or sell and look at sort of the whole Lifecycle of spectrum management over long periods of time and also taking account innovation that occurs. Oh Peeling back that onion we could be here, you know, it's a well past dinner time And let me let me go through a couple of things one We have traditionally what spectrum allocation was originally done Based on analog physics, okay So a TV signal is a Six megahertz waveform So you need six megahertz of spectrum to put out a TV station when you go digital The efficiencies of digitization allow you to get four or five channels into that same spectrum But the problem is that everything that Not everything the vast majority of the spectrum allocation tables were decided Using analog physics and we're now in a digital time so you can get a lot more out of the spectrum except that It's my spectrum. You can't have my spectrum They'd rather give up their babies a little rather, you know, you will you'll my cold dead fingers take my spectrum and And and and this is true internationally I mean we had troubles in a in a big international conference allocating spectrum just last year or two years ago, I guess and The world is not as sensitive to this as we are so that's that's kind of issue one that we're operating under old rules That support It's it's it's mine. I don't want to leave it. One of the great things that the national broadband plan came up with Blair Levin led a team under my predecessor Julie Shenikowski to develop a national broadband plan You had a large hand in that Was to say there ought to be a spectrum auction where we would repurpose spectrum by having an auction to buy it back and then resell it and And so the broadcast spectrum was the key there because go back to my if you can Why do you need six megahertz if you can get a bunch of channels in there? Get them in there and then sell off the others for for wireless applications both licensed and unlicensed by the way and So just literally my next to the last day on the job That auction which everybody said oh, it'll never work. It'll never work that auction hit. What was called the final? final stage rule where in fact we have created a market where broadcasters have agreed to sell 84 megahertz of spectrum and The wireless carriers have agreed the necessary price to buy that and so for the next 39 months There will be a whole process across the country of reallocating spectrum rebanding And making new spectrum available, but the spectrum, you know, I mean that the challenge of spectrum is a they're not making it anymore and B Is the the the physics on that start described the chart the spectrum allocation chart are analog physics in a digital era Here's a shared challenge I think we have that for you this is blood and guts entertaining fascinating stuff And and for me frankly, how do we how do we reach more people with what are ultimately? Extraordinary personal issues people's phones are very close to their hearts. They would give up a food before they give up a cell phone What thoughts do you as you give us a benediction here as you pass into private life? How do we get the resistance going? To focus on these issues in a more dramatic way, you don't ask easy questions. No, this is important. So so I Have just sat here and given you a wonks. I view of Telecommunications policy I Love my wife dearly and she loves me, but I can't hold her interest across the dinner table On these topics So how in the world are we gonna hold the interest of the of the vast? We need to get out of discussing These kind of This we need to get out of our technocrat mode and into our mode of Susan's point about how it's the Trump voter who has the worst internet Experience and the key to getting an education to be able to do your homework The key to being able to get a job the key to be able to to interact with the world around you is to have broadband and these People have been denied it. Why? Because we've built things around again for companies And we need to be getting the story out that let's talk not about the networks But let's talk about the network effects that the effects are the ability to do homework The effects are the ability to get a job the effects are Job creation in in let me tell you a great story And then I'll shut up, but this is it. This is a story that more people need to hear How Rogers who is the chairman of the house appropriations committee represents Eastern Kentucky which is coal country and which is just as you know economically devastated and Trump made a big play in coal country But how Rogers has said, you know, it's Connectivity is key and I keep me brought me kept bring me back to the district to pump the importance of Fiber connectivity miss fiber And I'll tell you two stories. I was in McKee, Kentucky One stoplight 900 people Fiber to every home and business as a result of the Obama sting of us There are more people Employed today in McKee than there were three years ago and who's getting employed It's not just the folks who got let go from the coal mines or those who were selling goods and services to them But it's the disabled I mean one of the things we haven't talked about that I'm most proud about is what we did to make Technology available for individuals who are disabled But people who can't get out and about are now working for U-Haul Avis and folks like this being online from McKee West Virginia you go down the road to Pikesville Where I met with a bunch of X coal miners. I mean you shake hands with these guys and you know Who are now coding for Apple and And others because There's fiber into Pikesville The community college has fiber Was teaching coding and these guys who had the gumption to go way underground and go to the coal face Had the gumption to say I'm gonna take charge of my life in the new economy Because I can because there is a fiber connection allowing me to do it Those are the kind of stories that we have to be telling Because how we connect to find who we are Well, thank you for helping keep America being the Pottersville of the internet Appreciate that. Thank you for your leadership. Thank you for your character and for the Many many hours you put in on our behalf. We really appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you