Can we're live on video this time? And I remembered to start all of the videos Hooray Happy towel day everybody. Thanks. You're welcome. Oh, it's all these days We've been more of a washcloth man, but yeah, I get it may the towel be with you, right? I know where my towels is right over there. It's actually a towel that Roger gave me Which one was that?  Yes Were you where the teams have the names of the corporations that run? Yeah Have any of you guys gotten through that movie? Which? The the the hitchhikers guy to the galaxy movie. Yeah. Yeah, okay. What are you talking about? Oh, you know, it is Chanel as Trillian. Yes, Zoe Zoe's me. Yes, I Just I did not like it. I don't know. I love the books. I read all I love Both but I don't even know how they ever even attempt to make it I feel like you know, you know what it is that movie. I watched it I didn't hate it. I Didn't like it either. I think you just didn't have the same level of charm. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it I was that or that that was my reaction as well Like I liked it if I look at every individual element. I'm like, oh, that was a good acknowledgement That was a good choice. That is reflective of the spirit of the books But somehow it just didn't have the charm hanging together as a whole. Yeah I think it was as good as it could be. Yeah, that's as good as they could probably do it And maybe because he was gone by you know, he was dead by then so yeah, you know And part of it is that adaptations Are tricky to do because if you try to do a literal adaptation just a little like for example comic book movie You try to do a panel for scene Replication it doesn't always work because they're very different Vehicles or you know, they're very different platforms. You just can't you know Gone of the wind movie is a totally different thing than gone gone with the wind novel, which I've never read And because you have to pick what kind of you know perspective you want on it And you know if it's done well, they'll have the same spirit if not, you know Technically the exact same elements in it. Yeah, I agree and it comes down to storytelling too, right? Because when you you know You could hear the same story by two or three different people and it could be really enthralling or it could just bore you to tears But if the storyteller is great, you'll stick with it. Yeah, it's a big difference in the ones. Oh, yeah, oops. Sorry Roger just looked at the clock All right, ready to go. Yes, sir. I hear an echo from somebody. Oh Is it me? No, I put my headphones on it might be me.  That's gonna be great. We're gonna have a good time I'm ignoring the reviews right now I'm not thinking about it. I don't even care. I hope it's bad Yeah, I just want to have fun and laugh I'll set. All right. All right Hello, I don't hear an echo. No Okay, here we go The Daily Tech news show is powered by you when you submit articles send emails and visit DailyTechnewshow.com Slash support you're exercising value for value and all the many ways to show the love that's DailyTechnewshow.com Slash support This is the Daily Tech news for Wednesday, May 25th 2016 I'm Tom marriage writing me today as he does Wednesdays Mr. Scott Johnson of the instance net and Sure, why not? Don't pull that one out of the hat. That's good to be here Tom as always I have I've come prepared to augment my reality Yes, because joining us as well from hockey buzz calm Ek is here today and Ek you shelled out for the developer edition of the HoloLens I sure did. I can't wait to talk about it that way. I can write it off We are helping pay for it by having you on the show. No, and it's great Like you you've actually got to try it out You've got to have other people try it out get their reactions Instead of and we've had some great Reviews of it from people in laboratory situations, but I can't wait to talk to you about your real-world use of it Let's start off now with the headlines Microsoft has some bad news today is today today the day they'll Port 50 people from the mobile division in Finland and 500 more people associated with their smartphone efforts worldwide keeping pretty much research and development and sales and write down 950 million more in losses Bringing to almost 8 billion or even a little bit more the amount They have had to admit as a loss from acquiring Nokia's handset division Don't forget they recently just sold the rights to the feature phones to a company that is being partially backed by Nokia a Statement from CEO Sacha Nadella indicates Microsoft will focus its smartphone business on enterprises and consumers who value security Manageability and the continuum capability That's the one that lets you use your phone Like it's a computer by plugging in a keyboard and monitor in an internal memo Microsoft head of Windows and devices Terry Myerson said the company will continue to update and support their current Lumia and OEM partner phones and Develop great new devices Not and also develop great new Lumia devices. So a lot of people are reading the tea leaves there Yeah, I think it's easy to read them though, isn't it and sadly I don't know man This seems like such a bummer across the board and and not just the loss of these jobs and and all of that but the the promise that was the you know the the The ability to take Nokia into a new era and take Microsoft at the same time to a new place and they both came out clean On the other side and she didn't happen man. She didn't work out too late in the cycle. I guess Couldn't agree more my favorite phone that I had was a Microsoft Windows phone Honestly, it was I haven't one of the Lumia phones. I had I loved it. I thought it was the best interface for phones I really did it's just kind of sad well The best guess is that they're going to put out a flagship device a la the surface a la the surface book pro They'll probably have some kind of surface phone or maybe I hate to use the word phablet But that's the word that people use now But something like that. Yep. You plug it into a monitor and keyboard and off you go Google self-driving car project chief executive said Wednesday that Google has begun to work with fiat Chrysler testing autonomous driving tech in 100 Pacifica minivans So look for them Google will open an engineering and development center in Novy, Michigan just outside Detroit as well So some some ground gained in the in the process for Google to get more cars tested on the road I'm tempted to make jokes about you know These these autonomous cars will be able to autonomously tell kids to quiet down in the back seat Load out soccer balls and is this the strategy of Google to like to make us fear them because you know minivans in our area Are definitely manned by crazy drivers So I think the idea here is you put many put them into minivans I mean that's the craziest thing in the world now now you just all the reason to scare you scared of every mini van You see maybe it's the opposite. Maybe it's rehabilitating our fear of minivans by saying look they have autonomous drivers They won't it will be under a fair and rational control time will tell well. They're definitely not going for big brother They're going for big mother. Yeah And and the the real point of this story all jokes aside is that Google is working with fiat Chrysler They had been trying to tie up With a manufacturer and we've been hearing lots of rumors about who that would be and now we know it's it's fiat Chrysler And Google moving in to suburban Detroit is a big move too as we are seeing a lot of these Companies move into Michigan in order to be able to work with all of the experts and talent that exists in Detroit The Detroit area around cars. It's it's a little bit of Silicon Valley having to leave the valley Yeah In a mini van In some cases in a mini van there are reports Sam's report podcast has sources who say Microsoft will announce two Xbox Spinoffs soon one is going to be a hundred dollar streaming stick So kind of like a Chromecast or a fire TV That will be able to stream games as well as your Netflix and everything and even and stream games from an Xbox console so you got an Xbox one in the living room and You know dad's watching his soaps you can actually stream your game into a TV in the other room Another would be a lunchbox sized device So we're talking like a Roku type thing I think that could stream but also natively play some of the lightweight Windows store games Sam's and Kotaku both have sources saying there will be an Xbox upgrade next year and Kotaku says That would support the Oculus Rift Which continues the trend of Xbox sort of saying well the Oculus Rift is our PlayStation VR And it would include a GPU that would support 4k would remain to be seen if they put out any 4k games I've had so many billions of things to say about this, but I'll just say a couple of short things one is All right This seems to be the thing to do PlayStation's rumored to be working on a 4k capable console as well Which should in theory benefit the prowess of their VR solution? I don't think them matching this on a competitive level is weird or anything in fact it kind of makes sense It does seem a little strange these little streaming sticks and boxes and stuff Usually those are add-ons to a platform that's succeeding wildly and while I would not count Xbox out There's a real lag behind problem happening this year So it feels like the efforts maybe should be more in how to get that library beefed up how to make it a Console of choice for gamers again, and then finally saying that the Oculus Rift is your your VR solution for your gaming By the way, they're not saying that I said that and yeah Let's make that clear a lot of people are saying that including you and I would say that also if that is the Way that they go that is a steep price for a solution that is Considerably less expensive on the more dominant platform this generation So it's just a it's a weird time man for Microsoft and for games And I've always said this this such weird cycles in the video game business one year You are on top the next you are flat You go from Xbox original and not doing very well to dominating the next generation and Sony going from dominating PS2 air to PS3 air and not so much now we flip the other way again I mean it's fascinating to watch But I really want to see Microsoft do some things that that pulls them You know at least get back into the race a little bit because right now they're just being discounted and you know The windows the games the window store games thing has not been received all that Well by developers and players alike, so they've got a lot of ground to catch up on Yeah may yomi zomi homie my time do you have to the file you can play for this Yeah, do you want me to play that later on me down me there you go launch the me drone it has a 5100 milliamp battery for 27 minutes of flight time and Rotors and cameras that are detachable. It's pretty cool It includes GPS and GLONASS which is the Russian standard for GPS very similar to worry What we do is over here and a visual positioning system for places with no satellite signal the 1080p One is being crown funded on the me home app for a 2400 you on that's about $380 that starts May 26th the 4k version is 2999 one and is 460 roughly in US dollars and we'll test in open beta at the end of July. These are cheap Crazy cheap. I mean a DJI with a 4k cameras above a thousand dollars. Yeah, you ask also 20 27 minutes of flight time is Not bad. That's pretty good I was just looking at that Amazon is one that's crowd funded in our little Amazon section That's 699 or 899, but yeah, that this is this is that is not that's nuts Yeah Now the one thing we didn't hear about is any availability to the United States I don't think which was which was one of the thoughts is that this would definitely be be coming to the United States Since all the prices are in you on though. It seems like at least for now They're just talking about availability in China I'll update you if I find out more or you if you guys have a link to anything that says otherwise Send it to us feedback at daily tech new show calm But that would this was supposed to be one of those things that they would be able to sell worldwide Because they don't have to worry about the patent battles that they sometimes would have to face over their phone Alrighty, how about eink eink announced today. It has developed an e-paper display called advanced color e-paper or A-C-E-P that can show up to thirty two thousand colors at a resolution of sixteen hundred by twenty five hundred That ends up being a hundred fifty pixels per inch Their monochrome displays are usually about three hundred pixels per inch So it's a lower PPI, but it's still a decent resolution and thirty two thousand colors Their previous Triton color display could only do four thousand colors We're not going to see this come to ebooks though eink says it will be good at least right away It'll be good for twenty inch retail sign panels. So when you go into target That's that's when you're going to see this thing in a lovely color display for the fall sale And when that ends they can just press a button and turn it into the Thanksgiving Day sale Yeah, I wonder why not why not any talk yet or maybe there is and we just aren't hearing it But talk about e-readers getting this technology because I've always thought that the the only thing holding e-readers back from being Even more widely received is good color being added to the technology meaning certainly comic book readers think that right I definitely think that I guess yes, you've just outed me That's the reason I want this thing and I want it to be able to be you know this this sounds like sufficient resolution to me and also Retain the battery savings that you get from these devices like lots of advantages there And I'm surprised that that isn't the focus, but that's what I'm kind of curious about I mean, I think e-ings about battery life, right? I mean, otherwise you're going there's better screens to use colors So if you're putting this in a window and target you do you have probably access to you're not going to be recharging those window displays I mean, it seems like something that would be that would be plugged in You know, that's what it's kind of is it just going to be less expensive and what I I think it has to do with cost I think the cost for putting this into an e-reader probably is a little higher than the manufacturers would like it to be Whereas if I'm a store and I just buy two or three of these and then I use them forever That may be worth it in savings and adaptability of printing costs and what not on high quality signage So I don't know There's one thing we're not thinking of and that is also the ability for e-Ink displays to not be a problem in direct sunlight And in a environment like a storefront in front of a window This is a pretty good way of having it literally look like their posters and not some sort of reflective Absolutely. Yeah, and that's a big advantage in retail situation The U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee approved a 2017 Intelligence Authorization Act Tuesday that's today. No yesterday the bill would allow the FBI to obtain email records with a national security letter Which is currently used for phone records. It will be considered by the full U.S. Senate shortly There's another brick in the wall of the Current debate over phones. I don't know if it'll be considered shortly But that's the next step the Senate would have to consider it and then it would go to the house And then we'd go through so this isn't becoming a law yet But it is the controversial practice of saying let's make it easier for the FBI to get email records And you can be of two minds legitimately on this email records right now Fall under the purview of temporary access and permanent access and basically rules that were written when email was kept on Servers back in the 1980s that don't apply. So we do need the rules to be rewritten But you have a difference between Feinstein and Burr that say let's write them to make it easier for the FBI to get access to them without The subject of the search knowing that's what the national security letter gives you the power to do Whereas senator Ron Wyden says this is more surveillance than what we need is less surveillance and more oversight Yeah, I hope I wish kids got more you said something earlier That just made me took me out of a little bit which was it's this isn't anywhere being a law It's still very early. Remember when we used to get cartoons as kids and we would tell us it's only a bell And we would learn what it took to get there. I wish I wish my kids had more of that. I'm just throwing that out there side note Schoolhouse rocks man. Yeah By the way Just just a side note a little behind the curtain thing if you wonder why we'll say on a Wednesday It happened Wednesday in a headline It's because a lot of people don't listen on the same day that we make the show Especially people across the international dateline can't listen on the same day that we made the show because it's tomorrow for them So a lot of people were complaining like when you say today, I don't know if that I don't know what day that is sometimes Anyway, that's why we do that Bloomberg reports at sources say Google is creating rankings of phone makers based on how up to date they are on Android patches and OS updates Google shared the list with partners earlier this year and is now threatening to take it public to try to encourage them to Be better actors and reduce fragmentation carriers are often the delay because of months-long testing meant to avoid network disruption But sometimes it delays intensely needed security patches like like with stage fright for instance you think also I don't know how much do is this about consumers wanting the latest thing and they can't get it Oh, it's absolutely. I mean that is the pressure Google wants that People want the latest thing like when it's an OS update But also people want the security update to fix their machine. So it's both. Yeah, you know It's that one thing Apple always gets to brag about, you know, their adoption rate on new updates is kind of insane The information reports its sources say Apple will provide an SDK for Siri This is something people have been begging for for a long time allowing developers to implement the voice assistant in their own apps Apple is expected to introduce a hardware device featuring Siri This would you know certainly work with home kit enabled devices Maybe others similar to the Amazon echo and upcoming Google Home Assistant or Google Home They're calling it according to the same source Apple's WWDC conference is on June 13th and perhaps We'll get to see something about that then Tom. What do you think the chances are we get? Siri home device unit this soon. I feel like that's what they've been positioning the Apple TV to become But I also understand that the Apple TV now is more expensive And they might want to have a lower price point home hub device a Home hub device seems pretty boring for something for Apple to put out So positioning it as an Amazon echo Google Home type competitor seems to make sense And they could they could put it out at a $99 price point On the other hand like why not just put it all together as an Apple TV then I I'm curious this doesn't feel like Apple traditionally, but Apple can can break their own rules So Siri as a device is I think is going to happen whether it happens Within an expanded Apple TV device or whether they're like no, it's too confusing We need to have a separate device that we can sell people for Siri and $99. I Don't know that echoes more than that. So maybe I'm wrong about the Apple TV price I don't know how to read this one. What do you think the echo is such a great product? I mean there they really are behind the curve on it And it's kind of thing that I don't think anyone would have thought the echo would be as great as it is It really kind of snuck up on everybody because Amazon has had no luck putting out products and for one thing But the other thing is it just it really it continually gets better the way they the way they constantly crowdsource that thing Yeah, I don't think Apple can catch up to that But I could see people at Apple being jealous about how cool it is like I could definitely see them wanting a product like that Yeah, and they want to get Siri in more places and also I just think it would be hilarious if we could have a grand lawsuit the kind of which we've never seen in the electronics business Where they try to use the term I home and they have to sue I home for the name Awesome, I am ready for that put me in the stands and buy no, but see it's Apple TV, right? Their new trend is it would be the Apple home. That's true Yeah, I that's that's kind of where I think we're going with that Don't you want your Amazon echo to change your Apple TV for you wouldn't that be cool? You know just to be able to tell Amazon Like just to interoperate with everything. Yeah, I know if Siri you're getting an open not open But an SDK that allows for this kind of interoperability There's a good chance of that or at least in theory apples usually a little more shut down than this But at some point that is what happens Spotify get searches and and that's connected to this and that you can say whatever you Need to do this device and it'll turn the Apple TV on and you don't have to buy their new device Like I don't know they go that far, but that'd be great I'd be all in on that it will be within the ecosystem though, right? That's my only I love you know the idea of a Siri that's just sitting there in the kitchen the way Alexa is right now for me But I only love that because I use enough Apple products that I think it might be worthwhile I will not like it when it says. Oh, well, this only works with the Apple ecosystem You're using some kind of application that's outside of that and therefore your Roku is not going to be Controlled by Siri you have to have an Apple TV All right now I hate that by the way also I know we'll get the email about it, but I just want to say that when Scott said that you know Apple avoids those fragmentation problems He didn't mean to exclude the fact that Google's own Nexus devices also avoid those fragmentation problems And that Google's fragmentation comes from the fact that Google allows other people to use their operating system in addition So there you go. I've just answered your email for there Magic Leap will partner with Twilio to enable real-time holographic avatar chats So this this will take us nicely into X evaluation of the HoloLens But the idea with the Magic Leap would be I could see a projection of mom on Mother's Day And we could have a chat even though we're not in the same location Ten developer teams in Twilio's community will get access to an SDK to start building for mixed reality Hardware this in no way sheds light on when the public or even these developers will get to see any hardware From Magic Leap, but they'll get the SDK and be able to start making things for it Should it ever become a real product? Oh, they're just treading so close to vapor wear They've got to be careful with this because at some point all these awesome ideas and these neat videos have to have some Bearing on reality and I'm concerned because I'm really jazzed about everything they're talking about I think Magic Leap is scary cool and lots of investors also think so But my gosh, there's nothing to actually hold look at or hold on to or test That's weird the whole thing's weird. Yeah, but I love love that idea And it wouldn't have to be limited to Magic Leap I know they're doing this SDK but I hadn't even thought about the idea of Taking Skype to the next level say and saying you know like all right We'll forget telepresence robots, which by the way it was a telepresence robot of The CEO of Magic Leap that made this announcement on stage at Twilio's conference That's awesome Would you like that to go and that is the way I want that to happen It's kind of him saying like I won't need to be in this clunky thing in the future You could just all have your magic leaps on Hey, thanks to everybody who submitted stories from our subreddit. You could submit stories and vote on them Especially the voting. I know that that's less Overhead for you get in there and do some voting at daily tech news show dot reddit.com We've got submissions from strike it rich goofball Jones sp. Sheridan Philip Shane All kinds of folks in there obituary like on Dulce is submitting things So if you can submit to or you can just get in and vote on the things that they have submitted at daily tech New show dot reddit.com and that is a look at the headlines All right, let's talk about your hollow lens First of all, I know you've been letting other people try it So not only your own reaction to being able to put the thing on and use it But what are other people thinking of it as well? That is the most fun part of you know having a technology That when no one else has right so it and I've got a ten-year-old son a 14-year-old daughter and You know tons of kids in neighborhood plus Plus some older in-laws were very tech savvy. So I've got a whole span of the whole thing. It's fascinating people are Legitimately blown away by this and I've tried I mean I had the I had the developers of oculus rift as well And people love that but it wasn't the same reaction. This is this has a very in inward reaction to it I it's hard to explain how Much it hits people when they can walk around something in a room like when you can put something on a table And you can walk around it and see it stay there, you know that that is a really I don't know a ethereal feeling to you like it that it makes you feel like I said I got this because I had a couple ideas for developing it with sports like the idea of you know teaching how to How to actually play different positions on the field and mapping all that out and having you know augmented reality players essentially and I've been working on that but just the basic concept of that this exists is one of those things that makes me happy to Have lived this long, you know like I have to say that's that's the one thing that keeps coming back To my head like I am thrilled that I lived long enough to see this exist And I know it's gonna get a lot better And there are problems with it for sure, but they're on to something this this this is real this to me to me This is real. This is actually And I did Google Glass and I do everything but this this is the first thing that feels like you know to the level of Iphone excitement to something new for a very long time Yeah, tell us a map about the field of view because one of the larger Conversations happening around HoloLens and maybe one of its controversies is that the field of view is more limited than their stage demos would imply and They haven't hidden this fact, but there are some I think it's going to be too limiting In light of the fact that we haven't actually seen hardware from Magically to others to contradict what can be done Is that is a limit as limiting a factor as some are making it out to be I don't think so at all Honestly, I mean I do think it's a detect people who saw it one way Of course when they see it another way it's going to be it's going to be weird because it's smaller But if you've never seen it the other way, it's not as if you say wow, I wish this was so much bigger I mean you do want it to it would be great, and you know eventually in your head It's kind of thing. Oh, yeah, eventually this will be much bigger But it's not so small that it's annoying at all I'm the biggest the biggest thing that it actually brings into a phrase with some of the holograms if you start placing Holograms around your house, which is a really fun thing to do because it remembers where they are So you can just give give the HoloLens somebody and walk around the house and say okay Find all the tigers in the house or what it's just very much is that for tigers? It's a great scavenger on thing for kids, but um, but yeah the no one no one has said anything about the field of view at all To me, you know, I know it because I read all the articles and stuff like that But I and that and I can say yes, it'd be great I mean I guess with the holograms if you make the holograms a little too big Perhaps then you get that weird thing of okay They don't feel as real because you have to go up and down to see their whole bodies or their whole But if you keep as long as keep the holograms within that certain size The field of view is not a problem The first thing you did with it. Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna ask You plot the box and then and then what?  We watched every video possible He was just I can't believe I'm home sick when it came he was so excited so we get we broke it out of the box And it's not that big.  I mean that that's when you actually say wait a second This is completely it's really breaks down that literally fourth wall of video games or your or the concept of you know Because I've done you know virtual reality and they're very different I think there's a really good place for both of them But yeah, the first thing I did was we just walked around the house putting holograms in the coolest places We could like there we have a fish tank and there's a there's a couple fish holograms So we put fish fish in there we put the fish in you know, we put an octopus in our fish tank That was amazing. Just my son's like we put an octopus in there He just you know, I thought that was the coolest thing in the world I wonder and maybe you can speak to some of this But I wonder if the sense of presence or the sense that the things you're doing are really there is more pronounced in This a our experience versus VR VR is is striving to create presence, but it's also creating a Depending on what you're looking at it I suppose could be watching 360 degree video or 180 degree video But also you could be looking at a rendered world and various styles and so on that is I know the ultimate goal is eventually create worlds They're so generated that there is nothing to do with what's in front of you But what you're doing with augmented reality with this device Almost deserves the term virtual reality in a in a more real way at least at this stage of things because yep I couldn't agree more you're you're dead on The thing about this that really does differentiates for me is because we have put these holograms around the house I actually feel like they exist Even when I don't have my hollow lens on like I I know that there's an elephant in that corner Because I've put every time I put my hollow lens on I see that elephant and so that and you that's the weirdest thing about I didn't think I would have that reaction to it But I said you know there's a bird on that on that banister over there But we don't see it now, but I know it's there and all I have to do is put my glasses on it It'll be right there And that's the strange things that that is a really interesting twist on reality in a way I don't I never expected that feeling like when you don't have them on of thinking that things are still They're just in a different realm. You're hallucinating them Yeah, you really they're just in a different realm than you are now It's as if you can just step through a door and be in that realm at any point That is pretty darn cool That that so so would you call that the wow factor or what what is the thing that that makes you think that this thing is for real? Yeah, I think the wow factor is the game is is the game when you're shooting at something that's shooting at you And you're literally ducking and bobbing out of the way and then you're seeing Okay, a little arrow that points you to look on the back wall and suddenly something's coming out of that wall The second you start to feel like your entire room is Engulfing you or when they actually the one game where you would scans your whole room and then suddenly in your normal door Which is just you know your basic, you know Tap, you know I don't know target door that you put on you on your basement becomes this this you know game of thrones Ask type door and that's that is there's certain things The whole idea of working with your environment is the real differential and that's really that's really what when you start to go Holy cow, this is done a good job of of this mapping The mapping portion of this is doing doing well like it. Are you having problems where it's like? Oh, there's no corner there with us this no the mapping is incredible and the mapping itself is fun because because there's because It puts these cool lines and you can see these angles as you're as you're looking at it's mapping the room The mapping itself just looks very futuristic I mean that looks terminator ask because it's putting these red things and then you seal the corners You see how it's doing the ceiling and the floor and and yeah And that's the mapping itself is awesome It does a great job with mapping so much so that you know if it's business something small You want to remap it again because you want your room to be perfect You know you just have that feeling of like okay Because one game I was playing with this little guy that runs around the room And he ran under the under the chair and I had to go duck down and look under the chair to see him I was like that was just holy cow. That was crazy Controlling with the little you gotta you got to do the croaking your finger thing just right and that that's that's good Enough for doing a shooting game. Well that now that comes with this too, right? So this is like this is a little clicker use a little so yeah, there is a little and I do use this more for that game For resizing it's definitely better to go like this And it is pretty the one thing that doesn't work very well It's like the home getting back to regular one screen you have to go like this they call it blooming and That just doesn't I have to go like I find myself having to do this a couple times And I don't quite have it right maybe I have to calibrate it again or something But the actual going like this does work pretty well Do you do feel you have that like kids in the hall like I'm crushing your head feeling? But you know that's some but besides that for the shooting game And just the clicker thing is the group best thing But you're actually controlling the cursor that you're trying to shoot things with with with where your head goes Right, so the one thing I find when people are playing it is they're going like this I'm like you can just hold that at your side Because your cursor is where you're shooting at Lighting effect things does it do you ever have any trouble with like bright lights through windows or dark hallways? Yeah, it's definitely better in in darker rooms But you know I did it I did a classroom today with fifth grade and and the one side when you put holograms on to like a Lit up ledge you can see them But they're not it's it definitely looks better when it's on when it's in a room where you're not in direct sunlight That it's definitely better like the basement is the coolest thing for it because you know And you can see so many things like whereas mapping out your couch And there's one game where a guy walked through the door and sat down at the couch So it knows there's a couch there like that's just like to me that was the little things like that I mean, I had one guy who are you get out of my? Yeah, right and you know is he gonna always be at that couch now You know do we have to move because he's sitting on the couch and think of him like my wife thought he was creepy My wife's like he's ruined that couch for me But you know the one guy in the neighborhood is like I just where do I buy what you know? Like some people a lot of people are that way and you know and the one thing they that's funny They have one app that is that is basically a virtual reality app where you can be you're in Italy Don't you're looking around and that doesn't work as well as as Oculus Rift because Oculus Rift is so engulfing I mean the only difference there is I guess you can you can see your feet when you walk around and there isn't that Ghost type factor if someone speaks to you if you're wearing an Oculus Rift and someone talks to you in front that can kind of Freak you out, but um, but there is so you can't see your hands But I do think that's that is where the field of view thing gets a little bit weird because you're all you are seeing Your room except it's Italy when you go wherever you're looking But and I don't know if that's the best app for you know I don't think that's really think that's trying to be virtual reality, which is another thing keep in mind folks It's three thousand dollars to get it right now because it's developers edition and you have to apply as well And get Microsoft to approve you. Yeah, you do and it took I got somehow. I got into the first group I was lucky and and it but it is it is it is going to be way Obviously it's gonna have to be way less It is a little uncomfortable to wear they have to make it more comfortable. There's no question about that It is heavy. So it's heavy. Okay. It's heavy and it's not it's not well put together in terms of how you adjust it You know like it's um it has this thing here that you turn and that makes it bigger sort of you can see it like getting wider And then this also goes like this which is strange So I don't know if you can see that or not. It has two concentric circles, right? Right, right pops up from inside and I just I don't know If you're not actually wearing it it looks like a torture device Yeah, it does and it's and a lot of people put it on and they have to hold it because you have to Yeah, and quite often when you put it on you know, I put it on people and I'm twisting this thing behind them You know, I feel like I'm like screwing into the back of their head, you know trying to tighten it Did they this is heavy and I wonder there That's where I wonder about the difference in this and you know and the others in terms of the computers in here Right, so that's what's cool about it So the computer being in there makes it heavier and you don't have to connect to another computer But I wouldn't mind it if it I know the original one they that the people saw when they saw this had a little backpack computer type thing I don't think I would care if I had a backpack on you know like to me This is more comfortable and that that was just something that clipped on your belt. I think I'd be okay with that Don't forget like this this doc was pretty clunky and it's first couple of revs, too So surely and even in this even in their current state all of these things are Inherently clunky and we'll be iterated upon to the point that we will eventually be super thin and rad like everything that we tend to That takes on some popularity. So I'm not really worried about that a long run But it does sound like they they went right from backpack to fully Maintain computer on your head sooner than maybe they needed to and so I mean this is cool You know that it's all in one and that's cool, but it's not comfortable to wear long stretches So on the other hand now, they've got the developer saying it's uncomfortable in this way. This is a problem I have I've read some reviews where people said it was uncomfortable until they showed me how to properly adjust it So maybe that'll help them figure out and make it more user-friendly That's that's all part of This the scheme right now is they want to find those kinds of things out right and no one cares No, I haven't had one person who put it on it says uncomfortable the second they see a hologram That's just to them I mean if you I'm just talking about if you were wearing it all the time Which I don't think you would do but if you were wearing it a lot You're getting comfortable and the one thing that the other good test with this is like the iPad test with kids You know how you can just hand up two-year-old an iPad and they know what to do This has that like I've given it to like three or four year olds and they put it on immediately They know that I don't have to tell them Oh your head's the pointer and you're clicking they just immediately They just go and then and that that is cool. I mean that shows that they got something right All right boring question last battery life. How long does this thing last? Astonishingly well, I mean I did like I took talk to the fifth grade class they at my kids school And it was an hour and a half and we only went only went down 25% battery and it was being used the whole time Let's get to our pick of the day Which comes from Franz and could be warmer Austria He has noticed recently several picks helping people prevent the windows 10 update from tricking them into installing and Franz says I therefore thought I should balance the scales and make my pick windows 10 Here's his review. It's okay. It's fine if you take a look at Android people are still getting mad They cannot get the latest versions even if Google has been pushing security patches over the play store for ages now Don't now be that guy trying to hold everyone else back Also just from a purely economical standpoint the amount of energy some people spend trying to avoid when 10 with all the Complaining online and registry hacking and tool rotation to keep the update from happening going on Stands in no relation to the time investment needed to acclimate oneself to the new environment This thus just check out windows 10. You know where to find it winky face People should just get windows 10. It's fine. We're all stuck in desk There are people with very legitimate reasons not to get windows 10. Maybe it's hardware reason Maybe it's a software application It's not always just I don't want to get used to the new thing and at the same time if somebody just doesn't want to get to The new thing that should be there right So I in no way support the fact that Microsoft is being in my opinion too pushy about this update at the same time I kind of in it in the same spirit as Franz, which is like yeah I mean if you don't have a real reason there's really no harm in upgrading to it now Holding on to seven until your last dying breath is weird. Just if that can be weird There there are non weird reasons that that people will say no I absolutely need windows 7 and not windows 10 because it will break things and I get that But if that's not you and you're just resisting because you think it's cool. That's different I had a friend who loved windows 70s. He said I look at windows 7 like he's an English guy I like living in England and windows 10 is I'm being forced to move to France Like why is that happening? Like I don't want to go to France. I like it in England. I think that's fair. I do I really do take that You shouldn't be forced to move from France to England or England to France You should live with whichever one I send your pics to us folks feedback at daily tech news show comm You could find more pics at daily tech news show comm slash pics Lots of folks still reacting to Monday's conversation about self-driving cars clay was listening to that episode and had to Disagree with our conclusion that the fear is either unfounded or based in ignorance He says I don't think the issue is everyone thinks they're a great driver But just about everyone has had their computer crash on them more than once pun not intended In fact, we're just talking about these windows 10 updates surprising people I don't think it is an irrational fear of handing over driving to a computer since the state of software operating systems has Been less than stellar Why would the general population feel confident in handing over their lives to a computer when it often can't handle normal user Applications over a long period of time the blue screen of death could take on an entirely new meaning Happy face. Hmm. There's more emojis in our emails I just want to throw in this comment Which is I'm one of the people that my initial reaction is a little bit nervous about the idea But I also know that every day I get into a Honda Accord that is mostly computer now if you take away all the you know Hardware in the in the gas so I'm relying on that already in a lot of ways and we're not talking about these things being You know a gateway Tower in the bend under the hood of the car We're talking about a lot of solid-state sort of standardized stuff or at least we're working toward those standards So yeah, it's gonna be fine.  It may as well do it in style I actually wrote clay back and I was like, you know, I I Get that but it's a I think my problem is not that I think it's irrational for people to be nervous and fearful getting into one of these Machines, I know I will be the first one time I let one drive for me. It's just natural, but it is also Irrational to compare this to the operating system that runs your phone Because those are entirely different user sets with entirely different Standards of reliability that have to be test in the majority the vast majority of cases if your desktop app crashes Nobody dies So there is a different standard being set and and I'll take you one better Scott Not only your current cars have a lot of computers in them already But our airplanes are flown almost entirely by computers pilots are there because we have an Extremely high standard of safety and we want pilots to be able to take over and do certain things But there are the avionics in planes are very sophisticated as well So if you were going to make that comparison and say well my chrome browser flat for a crashed one day I'm not getting on a plane because there are computers in there. That would you that would be silly But but I think is the basic human fear that he's talking about and the others are talking about whether it's based on experience with current Computers or if it's just based on I'm not letting the machine run this thing for me It's a it's a human nature thing and it's going to be tricky to get over whether whether or not we all agree That will be a part of the conversation until we get there. I'm sure of that I think that you have to take into account the fact that people that people are totally different in cars than they are In any other place in their lives.  Excuse me. I was terrible me if you do that in a if not you not even you know Hit somebody be to cut somebody off in a car, right?  I think that matters Yeah, it's that separation somehow we got actually I have a couple more pieces of feedback about this situation Chad sent us a voicemail from Portland Hey, Tom and the DTNS crew just to add to the discussion about self-driving cars to start of course I am an amazing driver and so are you Nobody is a questioning your ability at this point assuming you've passed your driving test The I'm a great driver argument However is a vacuous one because the actual question should be is the car more vigilant When there are umpteen sensors around the car taking in more information than I can possibly process Consciously or subconsciously the answer easily becomes yes Self-driving cars are more vigilant and more aware than I am Self-driving cars will be able to process so much more information I know how to respond to that data much more quickly So to all the motor heads crying out you can have my steering wheel when you bribe for my cold dead fingers There will undoubtedly be more motor tracks you can go to and drive to your heart's content But let's go ahead and put on those safety rails and prevent an extra 30,000 people each year from dying in traffic related accidents perpetrated by really good drivers You just had a momentary lapse in judgment. Love the show. It's kind of go into your point back He is so right. I absolutely know he's dead on and then think about this too I think think about the concept of are all self-driving cars going to run on the same computer program And if you're not driving a self-driving car, you know, we're all gonna be gaming it Oh, that's a Chrysler. He always stops at the quarter through him. I'm turning here You know, that's that's this kind of car is we're gonna be you're gonna think that you know Like he's saying I'm a better driver and I know how that I know how to get in front of a Mercedes Those are the most conservative self-driving cars in the world I finally John posted self-driving cars are perfect for rubber-necking the reason rubber-neckers slow down Traffic is reflexive slowing to look self-drive allows you to gawk as you pass it normal speeds and since cameras and other sensors are required Anyway, giving the rider a display with the ability to scroll back and look at things past seems pretty easy to implement either as a regular or Optional feature dashboard and backup cameras are already available Awesome. Yeah, so the future of rubber-necking is in self-driving cars as well That is it for this show. Thank you so much for sharing your hollow-end story with us Well, thank you so much Tom for having me and so such a this is my this is my actually best opportunity to get on forecast the podcast I always wanted to be on before with you remember because you guys I asked so many times beyond forecast this and I have the Whole forecast crew here. So I'm really excited. That's what we should do We should now since current since forecasted st Miss Ashley got folded into current geek is a segment. There's nobody I can't think of it Any reason why you shouldn't be on current geek at some point. I would love that. So we'll be in touch, man We'll make that happen Meanwhile, where can folks keep up with what you're up to act? Well hockey buzz comm is the best place I do I do a a hockey buzzcast every day at 1 o'clock eastern time. That's a news report very similar to this completely copied from this but with hockey and You know, so I do that every day at 1 o'clock and I'm you know I'm available there and also I'm gonna be doing a patreon soon Believe it or not. I'm meeting with patreon people in the next few weeks So I've been I've been waiting because you guys have had such a such success with it Then I thought I had to do my podcast for a couple years before I could ask people for money So I waited a couple years, but I'm doing it now. I'm gonna be doing it soon And yeah, I'll be I'll be at a Stanley Cup final near you Maybe in st. Louis. Maybe in San Jose. Maybe in Tampa. Maybe in Pittsburgh. I still don't know where the heck I'm going on Monday, but we'll find out then I would love to think it's in st. Louis But I know by the end of today my dreams will probably be crushed again I don't know I talked to Hitchcock yesterday coach Hitchcock yesterday. He's he's very optimistic. He's a great guy. All right Yeah, no, I love coach. He's he is optimistic and that's good. We need that. Yeah, go please Scott Johnson What do you got to tell folks about I wish I had a hollow lens on to tell you but I don't I have got all kinds of things happening But the best way to find what those things are is simply to go to frog pants calm slash Podcast that's where all the podcasts are you can also follow me on Twitter at Scott Johnson And don't forget a very few but some tickets are still available for the Warcraft showing on 11th of June here in Salt Lake City If you live in the area and want to come please do Tom Merrill be here Can't wait Brian Ibbett few other people so come on out and enjoy a big nerdy movie with fellow nerds Where do you find those tickets again? procpants.com slash Warcraft and folks Thank you for supporting the show if you do support the show in any way There are two main ways to support the show You can give us a dollar or more at daily tech news show comm slash support If you could do it on patreon you can do it on PayPal you can do it by buying a mug at the store We have some lovely mugs there. That's daily tech news show comm slash support And you can also tell people about the show and if you're a little short on cash That'll do just go to iTunes leave us a review or find a friend and say hey I know you'd like this show Let me help you subscribe to daily tech news show our email address is feedback at daily tech news show calm Give us call 51259 daily. That's 5932459 catch the show live Monday through Friday 4 3 p.m. Eastern at alphacic radio comm and diamond club TV And visit our website nearly tech news show comm back tomorrow with Justin Robert young talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network get more at frog pants comm Diamond Club. Hope you have enjoyed this bro Hey Great show you guys. That was awesome a fine techno technological piece of programming No, I hope I wasn't too glowing with Hollins, but it's really exciting. Oh, no I thought that was just good honest opinion. Yeah, you've cranked up my excitement meter Just just with some of the basic things that I was wondering about like this real simple things like battery life And yeah, what's the sense of what's real and what isn't like that stuff's really exciting to me? I mean AR as much as I've been jazzed about VR AR is maybe more exciting to me generally I'm really excited to get my hands on something like that one day Yeah, I think it's I think it's amazing and it's cool when you think about that This is the first first of it, you know like to me that's that's what's amazing I mean, this is really good for being the first of something Show about titles. Yes, please. What do we got? What's good? That's good Roger Chang. What's good? We have hollow lucinating. I love that Siri colon order more toilet paper Hollow the door There's one for my like so remember the wrath of Conn where Kirk gills out con what someone wrote no Cute. Oh, I think it's actually maybe a Darth Vader reference. Oh, that's right. It is a Getting old My pop culture Senses are firing out. There's near on X survives the HoloLens perspective vortex I like that he won't soak your towel Magic leap of faith a magic leap too far Trillia leaps it's magic My friend texted me. I don't want to move to France I Windows 10 it's okay Google's fiat and self-driving cars Xiaomi the drone Google pressures I Know what do you guys like is that guy in the couch How lens has ruined that couch for me. Yes, why is Tron on the couch? ruins X couch What's that My wife's mouth. She'll love that. You know the one thing about ink over a regular display is because it's it's not Emissive in the same way that like else LCD or OLED display is it's actually has less eye strain For readers, which is why I like eating over reading off a tablet Yeah, that's like a candle especially with someone with such poor vision as as I do It probably puts off less radiation too just in general.   It's a terrible sport.  You know, I can't my dreams of starting field hockey buzzer And I know it's a terrible. It's a horrible sport. It's like lacrosse is right up there with it But yeah, it's it's a horrible something on lacrosse is just dangerous and terrible I mean, you know about one thing about hockey. I always loved hockey growing up and we have great IHL team. Oh, yeah, I've been there. I've been there. Yeah, it's good time. Grizzlies are great I live actually kind of near stadium now. It's always a fun time. Well growing up I had this friend named Bill Evans who now works for some NBA team. I forget the huge into hockey and I have never in my life Experienced a more foul smell than hockey gear in the corner It is unbelievably like just like yeah, it's like the walking dead world must smell like it's the And it stays with like when you wear it like I'm a goalie. So I buy all this equipment and it's just um Yeah, my wife would not I would there was a rule about this Like she would not sleep with me on nights that I had played hockey like no matter how much I showered You have to sleep in another place.  There's a there's a stink to hockey.  You're never gonna get out of your hair Like I'm as a goalie mask or how can you helmet all that is just never gonna get out of your hair Like no matter what you try and so there's like no liner or anything like that. You know I know to accept it like you just have to embrace it if any you know Like there's nothing else to do if you marry a woman who thinks it thinks it's good What if they use Gore-Tex that could wick away the sweat and then they'll just collect the back of the helmet Roger is a problem solver It's just about wicking away the sweat but wicking away sweat on ice is a not as well There's that weird ice sweat smell. Yep Yeah, I've never been able to put my finger on but it's not just a hockey thing like even in the winter I remember it. Yeah. Oh, yeah It's something about the cold and And you smell when you're walking any rank any rank at all, you know, whether it's a pro rank or just your local rank or whatever You smell that everywhere. And yeah, hockey locker rooms and local ranks are just horrendous.  I know I know You don't have to smell it. It's an incredible television sport It only exists now because of HGTV had HGTV TV not gonna lie I don't think hockey would have survived but hockey there.  Yeah, and I could follow the puck just fine I think I think what it is is you learn to know where it is by other cues That's exactly not by looking for the actual puck. I don't right It's still the only sports video game. I buy ever is oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Love a good hockey game. Oh, yeah I got my copy of NHL 94 right here. I'm best hockey game ever made by far. Oh my gosh, Genesis version even yeah Oh, yeah, yeah The only thing a little bit better the Sega CD version of that same game, which just added real crowd sounds. Yeah. Yeah.  That's a classic though, man Oh, yeah, there's the year my daughter was born and I it's all is everything's everything was great in 94 94 year man Just the one where if you get in a fight the guy falls down and blood comes out of his head onto the ice remember that Great That's some reminiscing that game I used to stay up till three in the morning playing that with my brother-in-law Yeah, and there were some players that were just better in that game than they really were in real life, too That was like Jeremy Ronek on there was like an analyst now I always joke with him about it because he was incredible at the night NHL 94 He was good player, but he was the best player by far in that game I did the one hockey game that I never enjoyed was it was the Mattel one Because they obviously just tried to reskin the basketball one and it's right It was like this is a hockey. This is not any different. I have that one too. Yeah Like all these hockey games. Yeah, that's the midday. Yeah, like that. There's the metal version of this like the head-to-head Yeah, yeah, that one. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah, that was on the baseball one was really good though Actually, I have the other Not the non head-to-head one. Oh Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep Nice. No, that was good stuff. I mean that was that was fun that that was really fun I mean that now they've it's gotten crazy though the late latest EA sports games have gotten a little bit nuts Yeah, they're they my problem with them is that they just they think that the way to iterate is to make them more and more complex And yeah, I think they're missing the point Which is give me a game that recreates the sense You're never gonna be able to make it feel like a real hockey game other than aesthetics and the feel and the sound of it so focus on those things and You know let it be otherwise kind of simple the way 94 was simple, you know doing doing the one-touch shots and stuff Just the one timers. Yep. Oh, yeah. Yeah now that was great You're right and and now they've really gotten to the point where they're so complex that the people who are really good at them I've just figured out the glitches in them, you know, like there's a way you can shoot from here And just always score that kind of thing and I've played against people like that and that's just crazy Yeah, I think there's definitely true Well, that's the next step in virtual reality is like allow me to feel a forecheck Right. Do you remember Nintendo ice hockey? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah Nintendo ice hockey had that that interesting approach which was kind of rock-paper-scissors. It's a skinny guy Yeah, that was a good that's a great game. It's a great game Yeah, that was guys could totally body check they were super slow But they would never get knocked down middle jack of all trades and the skinny guys are just getting thrown all over the place But they're fast, but they're really fast The greatest it was really good But see that's just Nintendo thinking and I wish more people had it sometimes with games We try to we try to out complex the last iteration and that's sometimes right And that's game but probably made by people who've never seen a professional hockey game, you know Just but they're making a great game Not really great. I think the worst is a football football video games are the worst They've gotten pretty crazy. I cannot No five for me about oh five they stopped being fun Because you had to memorize all the button combos and whether you're offense or defense and it's like ah Well, I collect on arcade games, you know, and the one I have the one I have one football game I have like 25 arcades obelisks. Nope. I have what I think is the ultimate arcade game for football It is the nope not technical, which is really good. That was very good No, this is this is before that that we're talking like 1983 84 and this was the Atari football With the big trackball. Yeah, I've got that game and they had a side They're like a cyber future football game with the same controls game I forgot what that was called, but it was similar to that Atari did that later where it was like that same roller ball Yeah, and the roller this was the first way you stood across from the other person I don't roll it with a roller ball and it was just X's and O's And it was the first game they claim was the first sports game with a scrolling field So actually, you know the field scrolled as you went along.   We took it apart. It was really fun It was such a simple such a simple trackball concept I mean it really just a try just a ball with two things that's been each way and you get all sweaty And it was a great game. Oh, yeah, no, that's it. That's a classic that that's a good one and you only had three plays You could pass you could run or you could do something else I get one beat masters in the chat room asking you guys a question Was it blades of steel that had the boxing and made the loser go to the bench? Was it blades of steel? These are still is the hit the glass one. That was that one. Yeah Did it have a I don't know if I had a Made you go to the bench. I think it was blades of steel Actually, I think if you lost the fight you got a bet and got the penalty. I think that was that one. Yeah, that's right Yeah, that's blades of steel was a good one. That was the old on HL rules before they were Before they decide, you know, if they mixed NHL with MMA rules and there was a team in Kansas City My son once asked me says dad, why do you buy a FIFA game occasionally? I thought you didn't like soccer I said well, it's not that I don't like soccer, but it reminds me of hockey Like this year's FIFA game is a better hockey game than this year's hockey. That's such a good point You're dead. You're dead on right. I know and I'm I coach my daughter's soccer team now crazy And I've gotten into soccer because I've had to but yeah, you're right. It's a it's a better hockey game. It's completely true My daughter from from soccer. Oh Soccer is a great thing for girls awesome Awesome sport for girls to get into I agree My daughter yeah, my daughter is she just lives for it and she's out on a select teams and she's on all these crazy things Two days of post-show hockey talk on DT go. Yeah, we talked hockey yesterday. Yeah Jen Cutter was on the show and she plays hockey in Toronto no way. Yeah On the Hours column, I mean, it's not pro level, but it's pretty serious. Yeah, there's you play hockey in Toronto You're serious basically. There's like I know people up there We got challenged by serious XM to like the hockey buzz people to take one to take us on up there and You know, cuz I am the goalie on the goalie for the men's I've told you this time But I'm the men's USA media will play against the Canadian media at all-star games and events like that So at the at the finals, so I'm the worst player in this whole thing I most these guys are XNHO players, so I'm just you know getting schooled But it's fun. I mean it's so much fun Yeah, she was saying that like off-season college players will play in her league. Yeah Yeah, they are really really good. I played against a couple of the couple of the Canadian media our ex Canadian Olympic women's players Like Cassie Campbell and these guys who are really just legends and they're phenomenal and it's so much fun All right. Well, we have had a lot of fun having everyone here today. We're gonna end our broadcast day We operate with an effective radiate power of 3,000 watts from studios located at 309 West Main Avenue in Greenville We'll see you tomorrow


Hey, thanks everybody for coming to our talk today about debugging CNI. It's something that touches all of us when we're Kubernetes users, and we wanted to share with you our experience. My name is Doug Smith, and I'm the technical lead for the OpenShift Network Plumbing team. We deal with kind of all things CNI, as well as multi-networking with multi-CNI, and I'm a member of a network plumbing working group. And I'm joined with Daniel here today. So hi all around. So I'm also being part of the OpenShift CN Networking team, and I've been basically the project team lead for the project. We've gotten CNI plugins, which is called Query Kubernetes. So basically I deal with a lot of networking and stuff, and we're had as well with that. All right. So what we're going to talk about today is first a brief introduction to CNI to help let you know kind of where things live, and what the touch points are, and kind of a flow of what CNI does. We're going to look at some of the basics for CNI debugging, and then Daniel's going to give us an overview of CNI tool and come into a demo to show you exactly how he tackles debugging. We're also going to then kind of feed this information back into what we think needs to happen for CNI 2.0 and how we can as a community make this better as we come together. So CNI, it's the container networking interface. What CNI is is an API, and each of the CNI plugins are discrete binaries that live on disk that you'll see here by the CNI binary directory. That's something you got to know where it is. And you also have CNI configurations that feed into those. Those are executed by your container runtime implementation. So depending on your distribution of Kubernetes, you'll have either a container D or a cryo that's going to fire off CNI. And there's a commonality between both of those, which is lib CNI, which is provided by the CNI maintainers. So between your container runtime implementation, the kubelet, and your CNI plugins themselves, those plugins will then go and manipulate your pod sandbox. So that's where you're going to have a network namespace, and that's where your CNI plug-in is going to do its primary work of creating the network interfaces that you see in your pods. When you've got a CNI plug-in call, it's really kind of a simple flow. What happens is your runtime implementation using lib CNI is going to call a binary that's on the host.  And then it's going to feed in a configuration through standard in. Your plug-in itself then will speak via standard out, and it'll give a CNI result as specified by the CNI spec. And then additionally, it'll have an exit code, which counts. So if you don't exit zero, that pod's going to go off into a crash loop and try again. Yeah. So as Doug was mentioning here, in the CNI specification, we are doing to implement basically four different calls. So we will CNI add, del, check, and version. Even though this is somehow mandatory from this specification, most of the plugins, they don't implement checks. So as the name implies, add would just basically add a container for a network or apply modifications on your plug-in, delete would remove a container for the network, whatever buys. The del operation should return zero, or you may get into a terrible crash loop back off that we will speak about later. And also, the delete operation may not be successful should some operations in the node be happening, such as a rebooting. So then you would need to delete basically the remaining things on your own. Then you got check. Check. As I said, it's not really implemented. I'm going to be showing an example about the CNI plug-in that we developed specifically for KubeCon, which is called KubeCon CNI, and that does automatically nothing. But I think it's a good example to see how the CNI plug-in could be bootstrapped. And version will be just getting you back with the version name for the CNI plug-in. So CNI plug-ins get their configuration via a JSON file. Even though there's a lot of fields in this JSON file, what you should just be keeping up with is that you don't really need to have all these fields. I'll be showing that now, as of now. But the CNI inventory fields are just version, name, and type. Besides that, you can add whatever fields you may like to use in your own implementation, and then IPAM and DNS ones. IPAM is a little special. We'll speak about that later for a while. Let's take a quick look about the KubeCon CNI plug-in. I hope that this is big enough. Let's make it a little bit bigger just in case. So how do I really make a CNI plug-in? As I was saying, this does nothing. But as you can basically figure it out, we are implementing the scale from the plug-in, and we got the four meters out there. We got add, del, version. And as I was commenting, we are not going to be really implementing check at all in this case. But if you just go and check the add version, you see that it's basically loading the next con data from there. It's going to be getting in an error, should that happen. And we are just basically returning a JSON. So nothing really fancy. I'm mentioning this because developing a CNI plug-in is not just straightforward, even if this is just so easy, because there's seldom to know documentation and how to do this. So most of the people just read the spec, but there is no real example. This is something that at least someone should improve. You're happy to fill any pull request. Just something to mention quick about this plug-in that Daniel is showing is we've got this code available on GitHub. We've got a link later in the presentation. But this is what I would call a dummy CNI plug-in. And it's something that you could take just as a skeletal structure and put in some logging and use it to substitute in for a currently running CNI plug-in if you wanted to get some debug data as well. Carry on. And one other CNI configuration just to go over briefly is what we call a conf list, otherwise known as chain to CNI plug-ins. This is where instead of having the type field, you're going to have this plug-ins array. And I wanted to show this specifically because in the CNI 1.0 spec, it will be all configuration lists, all conf lists. So you're always going to see this list, even if it's a list of one in the future. So just to give you a quick example of that. All right, so let's just get into some of the basics. One of the first things that you're going to want to do when you dig in and start debugging CNI is to figure out where are your confter and your bender. This is the bender is where your CNI plug-ins exist themselves.  There's some defaults and most of the time you're going to find these in the default directories. However, they're configurable. And since the kubelet is going to be in charge of kicking off this process, that's where you're going to find the configuration for these. So two places that you want to look. You want to look at your kubelet's command line arguments. So just do a PS look for that, see how it's actually running. If it's not specified there, don't assume it's the defaults. What you're going to want to do is actually pull up the kubelet configuration. So if your distribution happens to use a non-default location, you can really burn some cycles trying to look in just the wrong place. Something that you've got to realize related to your binder is that the type field itself, where you've got flannel, calico, cilium, whatever it may happen to be, that's actually referring to a binary in your binder path itself. So that's what it's actually going to execute. So be mindful of the fact that that has to be an actual file that lives on disk and that matches the value that's there. Something that I've seen happen many a time is that you're having a failure and it's because you've specified this configuration, yet your CNI plugin itself hasn't installed properly or isn't installed on disk. So that's one thing to take a look for. And related to your configuration directory, this is going to, the CNI configuration that's alphabetically first there is the presence of that file is going to determine if your node is marked ready. So if you do a kubectl get nodes, you'll see a status field ready or not ready. And that CNI configuration is a semaphore for the kubelet to know that this node is ready to handle network traffic. So as a CNI developer, you want to be mindful of how you lay down your CNI configuration on disk. And as an administrator, you want to be mindful of how this process works so that you can know if your nodes are tainted properly or not in order to accept these pods. So you can of course set up pods that you may want to have run very early in your cluster life cycle to tolerate the not ready state. However, if you're seeing that you're in a not ready state, your pods aren't getting scheduled. Go ahead and take a look in your comfder to make sure that that CNI configuration isn't there. And if it's not there, it's probably specific to your primary CNI that you would use for pod-to-pod traffic. So for example, if it's flannel, that's installed with a daemon set. So check out what's going on with that daemon set and then enter your node to check out what's up. A few more just quick tips for debugging. The number one thing that will bite me is JSON. So it's great for parsing. It's not so great for humans. So whenever you're mucking around with your CNI configs in JSON, just send them through a linter all the time. So JQ is the one we use all the time. Or just if you don't have it on your system, just cat it out and grab a JSON linter on the web. In terms of logging, this can be tricky and very CNI plug-in specific. Since these plug-ins speak standard in, standard out, that standard out from your plug-in, if it exits non-zero, that is going to be captured by the cubelet itself. So that's a primary place that you want to look for any CNI specific errors. And then depending on the specific CNI plug-in it is, the developers may have implemented the logging in a specific way. So check the docs to see if there's any sort of parameters that could potentially enhance logging. And it's also possible that in some cases you'll have CNI plug-ins that have a daemon component that's running in a pod. So as I mentioned, we've got these binaries that run on the host and are on disk. And then we have some that are, that could potentially be running as a daemon in a pod. So check both on the host and in the pods. And if you're a developer, please add some additional logging for your administrators. This is, they can be particularly tricky to debug. Last but not least, when you're debugging CNI, you're often doing it specific node-to-node. And you'll be on one particular node. And if you're making manipulations to that node, you'll find yourself having to muck around with labels, node selectors, all of that kind of stuff. You may want to just use static pods, which allow you to put a YAML file specifying your pod on that particular node. And then it'll spin up on that node. So it's a handy way to kind of get around to that. So I also wanted to speak a little bit about CNI tool, which is a tool that comes within the repo of the CNI itself. Because, so, recapping. So how do we get the CNI plug-ins to work? So you can, CNI plug-ins, it's a binary which may get installed into all the nodes from the cluster using the daemon set of whatever. Then you may need to go see what happens when you are going to, you know, go and develop the binary. You may need to copy that. Then also you will need to check the logins. Maybe this is executed by the kubelet. You may want to go to the kubelet or cryo. So this is maybe a little bit too excessive for a developer who might not even have access to a community cluster and maybe not even kind. So the CNI repo comes with a tool, which is the SwissArminife. It's basically getting your binary and getting your configuration that I spoke before, which is basically a JSON file with all the tooling from there. It will create a network name and space, and then you will be able just to test that out. We got a demo about that, so I'll be showing that to you later. And in fact, if you just want to create a CNI plug-in, check out CNI tool and make it work using the network name and space. Because you'll definitely get an awful lot more of information rather than just, you know, a crash loop on the pod or yes, a sandbox couldn't get created and so forth. So again, and as we were commenting before, one of the things that these CNI plug-ins don't usually have, especially the reference ones, is login. A login boot just makes your life so much easier, even the user or the administration, because they would know how to debug the thing and what's going on. So let's get you started with some demo. Is the font big enough for them to make it bigger? Let's make it bigger. So we'll start by creating just a can cluster, no rocket science, just a quick Kubernetes over Docker demo. So let's get kicked in. By the way, we had to do some modifications because of the Wi-Fi from the beginning.  Sorry in advance, guys, we couldn't make it. Now we are going to be starting, by the way, this kind cluster has no CNI plug-ins. So at the beginning, the node would be in a node register. So let's get a primary CNI plug-in, which is going to be Celium. Let's build the image from here. We got it. And then let's load the image into kind. Okay, there we go. We are going to be also using multi-CNI as a way to have several CNI plug-ins working within the same pod and have several interfaces on the same pod. So there we go, running. So, okay. How multi-works, how do I add a secondary network interface or a secondary network? So you need to use a network CRD, which is called a network attachment definition, which has this way. If you see, I'm also injecting the conflict from the CNI plug-in. We are going to be using the plug-in that we spoke before that we developed for this conference, the Kipken CNI. And again, this is a binary, which is going to be executed later on. Now let's create a pod. How do I hook up this secondary network in the pod? You're going to be using an annotation. And if you see, it says the same name from the configuration that we used before. So that will create the secondary network interface. So far, this is okay. So now we got a pod with two NICs running. But what happens if you mess up? At the same, you create a secondary network with a non-ballot configuration. How would you debug this? Okay, here we are going to create yet another network attachment definition, which is going to be non-ballot, because this is just not there. And if we get to see the pods, okay, let's see. There we go. Those are the annotations filled from the first pod. This is running. It's okay. If you can see, it has two different interfaces as well from the CNI and the other one from the Kipken CNI, and that's okay. But what happens with the other one? The other one, it says it seems to be okay, but it's containing creating, and it's going to be there forever until it gets to a crash loop. Because as we were commenting on the slides, one of the most common things and issues when creating one of these is that the CNI is just not there on the binary. So we are using Celium, which is there. Of course, it works. And then we are using the Kipken CNI, which exists, and the other one, which doesn't. So how could we debug this out? So if we go to the Kiblot locks, you'll see that it's just trying to create a pod sandbox and it's trying to hook up into the binary, but it's just not there. So getting back to the CNI plugin path, and let's assume that we are using the default path, you could get to see that most of the plugins are there. We got Celium CNI, we got the Kipken CNI. We don't have the other one we are referencing, but of course it would always fail. I also wanted to speak a little bit about, okay, how would I test this? So Kipken CNI, if we are on the CNI plugin path, you could always just go ahead and call the plugin.  If you see this Kipken CNI is just kicking out like today's date, so it does nothing fancy, but I think it's a great example on how to handle this on. Feel free to check that on GitHub. And I also spoke about CNI Tool. So how would I check locally and without having to deal with any cluster, my CNI plugin and the configuration? So for instance, this is a sample configuration that I took out for the egress router CNI, which is also available on GitHub. So basically it's meant to be expecting a few IP addresses and a few ports. And if you see there, I'll say that the address is just called Kipken, and the destination is called Binfuber. So this won't ever work. So what happens? Let's just give the try to test this with CNI Tool. So I got this script, which is just basically, first I do create a network dynamic space, then I do call CNI plugin. If you check there, I'm just asking for it to do a CNI add command using the egress router binary. So egress router binary is again the name and the type for that CNI plane that we are testing. So let's run it. Here, this is one of the plugins that has logins. Sorry, the word login is enabled. So this is again an awesome thing because you will be able to see what's going on. So we are calling add. We are trying to set a gateway, which of course doesn't work. But you can see some stuff. This doesn't happen for any of the reference plugins. And as Doug was commenting before, it's enough of now and we hope that this is going to be improved by the CNI Tool specification. Every CNI plugin needs to go and implement their own log in. So we're about CNI, they do log in. Multi-CNI, they do log in, but most of them don't. Let's try to do the same with the KubeCon CNI that we just got here. Again, as I was commenting before, you just need to put in the type and the name and the CNI version. It's nothing much more. So that would be the scale of the first CNI plugin you're going to be playing with. Afterwards, you could just go and add any fields that you would be happy to. This is just the same script adapted to the other CNI plugin. And what's going on? There you go. It gives you valid output. So should it have failed, we wouldn't have any way of knowing that because there is no login. Okay, so thank you for attending the demo. Cool. Thanks, Daniel. Really appreciate it. Alright, so to briefly try to wrap this all together and talk about how we'd like to see CNI 2.0 improve based on our experience with debugging CNI 2.0. One of the main things I'm excited about in CNI 2.0 is the prospect of having the plugins themselves running in pods. So since we have these plugins running as binaries on disk, it's kind of a non sequitur for how you interact with your cluster as an administrator. So that's something I'd really like to see. We're not a huge fan of having the configurations in JSON. It's also not exactly the same as what we're used to with our MAML type of specifications that we're working with. Additionally, devices are a difficulty, so we're trying to figure out if there's kind of a better, more collapsed way to work with devices and lastly is to have something that better handles network lifecycle during a container's runtime. So when we mention the commands we've got CNI add, delete, et cetera, those happen in discrete moments when your pod is created, when your pod is deleted. But what if something happens between those two detent points? We'd like to see something that's a little bit richer in that sense. And just briefly, something that is kind of an idea in terms of design paradigm is the idea of a thin plugin and a thick plugin. A thin CNI plugin is just the binary on disk that runs as a one-shot. It starts, it does its work, and it exits. You could have a richer design that we call a thick plugin and the idea is you replace that thin plugin that runs on disk with what we call a CNI shim. That shim takes that standard in the environment variables and it package that up and sends it to a process that's usually running in a pod as a long-running process. That's where we call it a thick plugin. And it takes that information, does the work that it needs to do and then sends the results back to the shim and the shim exits. As you can see by this diagram there's a number of moving parts happening here. And in CNI 2.0 we're hopeful that we can standardize all of that communication and have your plugins running natively as a thick plugin and then in this sense instead of all of that work that Daniel had to do in order to figure out is my pod running and not running how did I get the logs from the cubelet. What you can just do is more like a cube cuddle get logs and get your logs out of the pod. So yeah, thank you. If you have interest in any of this and in CNI 2.0 as well there's a working group that I work with that we would love to have you join with any questions, comments, ideas, contributions, etc. As well as the CNI maintainers I'm sure would be happy to hear from you. There's a number of issues in the github issues that are tagged as a CNI 2.0 if you're interested in that as well and we have the contents available. That's the content and also if you want to talk with us feel free to ping us on Kubernetes. So yeah, thank you. Any questions anyone? I have a question like this idea of CNI plugin in pod but you have idea how to resolve the issue of eggs and chicken like how you create the pod without CNI plugin so what would it be first? That's a great question and I think that you would probably have to have a kind of special class of pod. It might look more like a static pod itself that would be my guess but that's a great question. Another thing I'm thinking about in a similar sense is in CNI 2.0 if you have these plugins running in pods they're going to need host access as well and I think that that's going to be something tricky to be able to expose that host access to the pods and then it's also going to have security implications so I think that there's a number of interesting challenges there. Thank you. I think it's going to be a little bit like you know with the Kubernetes API so you're putting the static pod also probably going to get either capabilities for accessing networking and so forth or yes you know privileged access. One question I finally thought that in order to have multiple CNIs I have to deploy a multus or whatever. Is any work in progress to be able to support multiple CNIs without having to resort to multus or something like embedding multus in pod?  Yeah Francisco that's a great question so this is something that we've as Network Plumbing Working Group have been looking at over a number of years I think that SIG network is becoming increasingly more interested in the idea of having this natively in tree in Kubernetes. When we first started the effort for CNI we it's a long story but the short version is it was going to create sweeping changes across the code base of Kubernetes and the maintainers weren't super excited but I think that over time more people have seen the value in being able to have multi-homed pods so we are continuing to thrive in that direction and I think that everyone who's a member of the Network Plumbing Working Group would like to see that happen so stay tuned because it's certainly part of the discussion thank you. Also one of the things that has been discussed lately is that so far you need to add a network definition so it's a work in progress less than a year to have a network primitive within Kubernetes directly we have to do the same so you can do that and allow the network to use Plumbing under the hood. Thank you for the talk. Slightly off-topic question what software did you use to make the demo? It's called demo magic so basically you could do everything. I think it's a cool thing to do you could basically One follow-up question related to MULTUS. Can you comment on Intel DPDK support, so data planning development kit, where we would need additional network interfaces? Sure, so the best context that I have for the use of DPDK with secondary interfaces has usually been relative to the use of SROV devices. Additionally, it is one of the considerations of the specification that we have for secondary networks was to allow you to have kind of a blank slate, if you will, because if you're using DPDK, you're going to bring along your own IP stack, et cetera. So it's definitely possible. And I believe that using the SROV network operator, which is one of the projects as part of the network plumbing working group, there is DPDK support for SROV devices as secondary networks. Does that help? There's also another option, which is, let's say you got your own plugin. You got to have any plugin that, for instance, would attach your secondary unique to OBS DPDK, then you're getting that for free. Or you could also have a secondary plugin that would attach a Macbeta interface, and then you get the SROV passthrough and so forth. So I mean, it kind of depends on what you want. I think that we have run out of time, but we would. We're happy to answer your question, so we'll be going for a while. So thank you. Thank you a lot for attending today, and see you around.