tatistics aren't there this isn't a conspiracy theory or figures that are pulled out of the sky so in your view considering these things contribute to fatalities in the road what do you think an acceptable level of fine would be then would you see great the whole issue of the fines and affinity points have been proven to be a failure because the debts are increasing like since chen ras did what he did and when he brought in his legislation it has been proven since to have failed it's not succeeding and like there are very other important issues that they're ignoring and i give you the examples and they're left at what i would call you know the word ministers for the environment don't seem to want to take any notice of this what i do because these are the real things that make a difference to people for example the caution of the hedges on our country roads they're not being caught are maintained by our local authority it should be as part of general road maintenance that would give us greater sight distance on our roads it would mean that people wouldn't be out around the middle of the white line on the road right and what it would mean is that people would be safer for instance before what do we call a section man that was a person who was in charge of a certain amount of roads miles of roads on in their area right now that person's job was to keep the bikes open keep the water off the road that's not happening anymore so we have this thing called ponding on our roads then you could be driving along after a heavy shower or rain or water coming out onto the road the roads are like a drain in many instances the car aqua planes are hit the slash water the car loses control goes out in front of another car causes an accident there's nobody looking at all those such things all they're doing is this simplistic view where we can get the driver's pocket and hopefully then what you said a minute ago i will frighten them into the that well it's not working okay i'm just i'm just in the interests of just because obviously on this program the facts are very important to me other than than than two peaks in over 2013 and 2014 and 2016 there has been a consistent decrease in the amount of lives last on irish roads just as a as a matter of fact if you don't mind deputy me pointing that out well i was well that's fine to say that but but what i would like to well it's not it's the fact you see that's the only thing it's the facts right well okay can i state another fact so please right and that is that a win minister right when on his crusade he brought in his legislation at the end of of 2019 the following year road debts increased that is a fact and then after that subsequently they increased again that is a fact i don't say things without there being facts at all and the facts are that that the road the government in 2019 in 2019 the amount of people that died on our roads was um did you say when he introduced them in 2019 no what i said was at the end of 2019 his legislation came in the following year the road debts increased on our roads yeah but you're talking about a very small period of time right okay and and can i and can i just make one other please do go ahead final point at the final point i'll make them i would be delighted if what the government was doing was working and my goodness if it said one child if it said one mom or one dad wouldn't i be delighted but the point is that i would like to see them expanding what they're doing okay but i can just let me let me ask you one question that you see the guardi right have the statistics as it relates to uh the wearing of seat belts and and the amount of lives that will last because people weren't wearing speed seat belts they also have the information as it relates to how many uh lives were lost and many ruined for injury uh through the non-wearing of of seat belts and mobile phone use you know i get what you're talking about there's a number of factors uh that cause road traffic collisions a the driver b the car and c very importantly and i don't think it's talked about enough which you've mentioned the road condition and i think much more focus should be placed on that but that they find that a discourage what we know costs lives uh deputy healy ray that's the thing that that that that i find myself leaning towards saying well if it's saving lives then it should be then it's worthwhile but of course you're right but the point is that what they're doing and what they're concentrating on isn't working so what i'm asking is the other issues and for instance where i'm from county kerry dear rome out on our roads is causing an awful lot of accidents causing an awful lot of death causing an awful lot of injuries and that fact is being completely ignored by government so could i just act that they would take a more open and broad minded view of this rather than the monetary side of it well we hope that if we charge them enough when they're caught doing something wrong i mean i don't want to see anybody drive a car without wearing a safety belt i don't want to one person young old or middle aged getting into a car without playing on their safety belt and could i just say because of a recent thing i just happened to know about and could i please remind people today that's putting on your safety belt in the front of the car and the passengers in the back not putting on there is absolutely a crazy action because they can really injure the people in the front or they can be thrown from the car like just because you're in the back of the car you have to wear your safety belt in the back of the car as well but but getting the message across that way rather than telling people or we're going to double the fines or we're going to increase the penalty fines but you see the thing is though but the thing the thing is the thing is and i won't delay you much longer if you don't speed if you wear your seat belt uh and if you don't use your phone when driving it doesn't matter if they set the fines at a billion euro it's not going to affect you this is only going to affect the people that you're encouraging to put the seatbelts on to slow down a little bit to not use the phone you were right if you and me never if we always wear our seatbelts if we we don't speed uh and if we don't use our phone me and you will never have to pay those fines but but greg you're a hundred percent right but could we finish on this nose that's if you're a perfect person i know if you were all perfect of course we're not not perfect yes and and i know i'm not perfect so i know that other people aren't perfect either it'd be great if we all were yeah but if i had at the road this evening if i had at the road this evening and i decide that i want to get home for me tea and i go 120 in a 100 euro zone i think i've got the fine coming to me whatever it's it's set up because i know the facts i know and i'm not saying that look you know but anyway i and i and i'm not i'm not agreeing to what we are but we all want is for people not to die in a row you see the thing is with the thing is fine very finally uh deputy is you see i think what you're saying will be popular it'll play to it'll play to an audience right but you know when your heart of hearts that we really need to be doing everything because you've said it yourself to try and keep people alive and uninjured on our roads and i just don't really see why you're not focusing your attention on the fantastic ideas you've got in terms of road maintenance and education rather than scoring political points off senator shane ross over fines that we can avoid and i say that with absolute respect to you by the way yes put your great i'm going to ask you to undermine your own argument there by by using one word you said we should be doing everything so we're not all we're doing is going after people in a monetary way so we're not educating the drivers we're not maintaining our roads properly we're not cutting the hedges we're not keeping the water off the roads we're not increasing site distance so we're not doing everything and that's all i'm saying thanks for your time thank you very much for the opportunity and could i just say one thing please could i just say one thing too great finally if if if having this little discussion and it's having this debate and to be blunt about it why i don't care whether people think i'm right or wrong that's totally material but if you will be having this argument or debate or whatever you want to call it if it creates one little bit of awareness and if it makes some person think one getting in the back of the car you know they're talking about points they're talking about this i better run my safety belt and and if in some way you were me having a debate and the people that say that i'm right that's fine the people that say that i'm wrong that's fine but if by us talking it helps our road be in the slightest bit safer isn't that a great thing yeah of course listen i'm not saying you're wrong it's just it's just a strange hill to die on not that you will but you know what i mean but thanks for your time this morning i appreciate it greatly take care of yourself i want a quick word with shivan to shivan um do you do you agree disagree with the deputy he's gone there now but just what's your view um well to be honest i i do agree with a lot of the points you know that he's made um fines increasing will cause you know people to think about what they're doing a little bit more but they're not the only thing that we need to be doing you know i live on the remelton to melford road and it's a 50 km zone apparently and i've you know the guards actually in the melford station they'll meet quite well and because i range recently to to note the speeding that's on that road and one of the sergeants has actually stood out and they've patrolled it but they can't get people or in one instance somebody was driving that fast but they nearly they nearly ran into the garage they were driving that fast on that road the guards are stretched you know they're doing the best that they can with the limited resources you know that they have um so i don't like you know the guards can't be outside my house every day you know so you're saying you'd have very little sympathy for people who were clocking 70 or 80 past your house you'd have very simple little sympathy for them if they were find 160 euro plus penalty points each time be on their own heads if you want to come in past my house at 50 km or at 100 km an hour and the guards catch you and you get to find a true and false i come out i try to drive out my my house and i drive away and the people that are in the estate with me and every day we risk our lives driving on to that road my sister-in-law lives in the back of the estate and she she has nearly been driving into it i've nearly been driving into it my my husband we've got a little girl you know the amount of time that we have people have swear across the road to avoid smashing into us or beat the odds for it to say that we're the bad ones trying to exit our exit our driveway you know people like like i said it's like you know so i don't like i don't disagree with the fine but you know but there needs to be something else is there adequate signage there do you think shabana i'd be kind of familiar with that road uh and i just wonder could there be more signage to to to point out uh the fact that it's a 50 km on well there's a big there's big massive signs about that like that you know heli said you know whenever the hedges grow they you know they do take over part of it's all year round it's not a don't make a difference those signs what would make a difference is if we like apparently the road safety authority are out here one day and they had said that it was extremely dangerous that children be crossing that load you know to go back and forth from school um that we need a footpath so that we need an island and that we should have maybe more signage i think one of those um i know on the way to red castle you know there's one of them signs that have to tell you your speed that you're doing and that you need to slow down if you're going over like i think one of them may help but like yeah they're very effective because they flash flash flash slow down slow down and then say thank you when you do yeah i think yeah i mean it becomes like again you're like all right i need to slow down about that it's reflecting because some people and it can be just mindlessly you know i don't think a lot of people need to be speeding but we can just get we just run our but i i think like i don't disagree with well if i find like if you know you shouldn't be doing it we get caught then that's just you know it's just bad luck but at the same time you shouldn't have been doing it yeah well you see that's what i was trying to say is some people might make a decision but they are making a decision everyone knows what the crack is if you grow for a hundred sure if that's why we all uh we all flash each other i tend not to so in a company car but you know it's because you know up you could be going over the speed limit there's a couple of flashes because there's a a checkpoint up there a van up the road so we all know uh so i don't know where the surprise is all right listen shivan thanks for your time this morning i hope you get sorted because it's it's a stress every day after deal with it waiting for something to happen and i think that's what your life is like so we appreciate you sharing that with us thank you very much shivan okay back with more shortly live free in 2023 with dunlo g a club winner takes all prize includes 500 euro cash paid every week next year live free in 23.ie pride sponsors of today show are your christmas orders already flying in on pust commerce has some seasonal supports to help your business scale up with smart savings on advantage kind get 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pack live at the grianon theater letter kinny december 14th direct from london's lester square and for one night only enjoy classics from frank sinatra sammy davis junior and dean martin tickets from an grianon theater box office and an grianon dot com presented by joe gallagher entertainments it's time to unlock electric during volvo test drive week november 1st to 5th we welcome you to mckinley motors to experience our award winning range of plug-in hybrid and fully electric cars place an order during test drive week and you'll receive a complimentary volvo service agreement which covers your first three services unlock electric and find out more about our exclusive offers at volvo cars dot i e terms and conditions apply all right let's get some news now on a fire in in a shone and some advice for local residents uh acting chief fire officer with the donagwall can to cancel is michael scott michael thanks for your time this morning good morning no problem greg thank you very much for giving us the time just to get the message out there right if you don't mind just as much as we know uh when did this fire start and where uh the fire started last night pretty good approximately half past 12 as located in drumanore outside montrana it would be a recycling plant um that's pot fire um at that time we would have mobilized out uh approximately four appliances and a number of uh special students as well to enhance and command units um as well as a high-reach platform and we currently have a number of excavators on the site at the moment as well to assess grab greg yeah now presumably given what might be in a recycle yard then this is not uh this is a fire that could could give off quite damaging fumes is that why you're advising residents in the local area to keep their doors and windows shut uh well greg it seems there are all kinds of scandal waste if you know what i mean right it doesn't seem to be running too near in some of what at the same time we just want to be safe and we just want to advise anybody in the area any of the residents just if they could keep their doors closed and they're want this closed um just in case there would be any adverse effects but we we don't think there's any too serious in a more general way yeah just people maybe with respiratory uh issues or something this could agitate that from an operational perspective michael how long do you think it will take to sort of uh have the the site cleared from your perspective i would say it's going to be late um later on it's even mid-date later on greg to be honest um we're going quite well here at the moment but i probably just want to take good but go up to another three to four hours um for all city mobility here from the site all right well stay safe you and your teams and thanks very much for the update michael thank you very much great thanks for opportunity no no it's very important to get that information out so it's a fire at the recycling center in the dremenor area 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including chains and bars for all makes of chainsaws gallinas letter kennie tool hire at mountaintop letter kennie your local garden care dealer garden care your pathway to a beautiful garden okay you're very welcome back to the program delighted to welcome into studio lisa hone who's chair of the mica action group good morning to you thanks so much for joining us lisa how are you keeping i'm busy greg yes fair play to you uh for taking up this role uh because i think you would know and i'm sure you were warned in inverted commas that there's a lot to it and it's it's it's ongoing and it's intensive it is it is um bush i i just felt you know i had been involved with mag for the last 18 months pretty much as as soon as i found out that i had an issue with mica myself and got involved on a volunteer basis and then just kind of as we went on and as it became more and more intensive the last 18 months or so just got kind of more and more involved in everything that needed to be going on because it really was all hams to the pumps at a very very intensive year well you know over a year really um and then obviously we had the agm and there was existing members of the committee they absolutely needed to set step down and i respected that because they had given everything to it so a pressure there to keep going because if the people that have become familiar faces and voices back down they're thinking well could this change momentum or something and you've been very very busy in it and you're taking a more high profile role in this i think but you've been flat out here to four my heart take of where we're at at the moment is is that we have a scheme that is stalled at the moment it's not really clear uh who will get on it what will get done but everyone's probably gonna have to pay something but we also have a sense i feel that um the victims of this scandal have been abandoned or are abandoned that you know they're the lowest common denominator that there's attention and focus all over the place but if you're a victim of the uh concrete block crises the scandal that you don't really matter i'm not saying that's how i feel but that you would be forgiven for feeling uh like that i think is that can you add anything to that or is that a decent assessment to the situation i think that's a fair assessment of certainly how homeowners feel i mean i speak to homeowners every day um and what i would try and do as the voice of mag would be to try and relate the reality the truth of what is happening on the ground um it is actually galling when you hear some of the rhetoric and statements of ministers and interviews where they're they're almost dismissing it oh you've got a scheme calling you know what are you making this noise for what's wrong with you no the scheme isn't here last last year you were talking about delivering the scheme by the end of this year like as in now it should be live now and here we sit and we don't even have a date for the scheme to be open um so it's vital that i think that we do keep the pressure on you know organizations like mag are there and obviously the campaign groups right across all the affected counties do keep that voice of the homeowners in high profile as we can hold government ministers to account and really shine a spotlight on the reality and truth of what homeowners are going through as opposed to what government would maybe like the public to think yeah because there's definitely a battle for the minds of the public and that was started with commentaries like mansions with commentaries like you know we have to be careful how we spend the taxpayers money all of that is a strategy those aren't off the course of remarks those that that is a conversation to try and influence people to say as you say look we we gave them a scheme it's a hundred percent and no matter what you say they'll say it's a hundred percent and then the general population then move on to the next thing and yet hundreds thousands of people are left behind in this mess yeah i think that's right and they're definitely has been insidious tactics used against the homeowners which when you think about the situation they're in is just about as low as it gets um you're up against the state machine there's no doubt about that with you know all the resources that they can possibly employ but that doesn't deter us in fact it actually fuels us on because we see the injustice and we see the lies being told and that actually spurs us on to get the truth out there and to keep unchallenging and what is being said to the public and i think yesterday was a good example of that uh where we had a platform where we could actually um specifically highlight what is going on in reality as opposed to maybe what's been said from government what do you think the key message from mag and other speakers uh and we're going to be joined by uh deputy power of McLaughlin shortly on this issue too what do you think the key message that was gotten across that people needed to hear uh through the submissions yesterday i think the key message was that the government is sitting on this situation and is being morally vacant in my opinion about really tackling the root cause and that's why i wanted to draw pull it back to why this levy is needed in the first place it's not the homeowner's fault that the levy is needed the homeowners are victims of what has gone on within the concrete industry and it's really really important for the general public to understand that it is the fault of those who violated regulations and those who are in a position to make sure that really good strong governance is put into place and have a moral duty at this stage to do that but are yet still holding everything at harm's length dragging the heels and real tangible action that should be taking place to make a real difference to assure anybody in future buying these type of products that they're good quality they're fit for purpose and you're not going to be faced with the devastation that obviously thousands of homeowners all across island are today um stay with me there's a set of headphones there if you want to put them on so you can hear uh deputy mcgloughlin or i'll try here is there okay make sure the volume is okay for you sorry i should have done that first lisa i'm an amateur my apologies right uh deputy power mcgloughlin uh you've referred to this uh as as as what it is it's a humanitarian crisis uh you would have heard what what the speaker said yesterday do you know the language that's being used in the door on this issue it's so dramatic it should be really the front page of anyway this is so dramatic as what we're talking about but because it's i don't know why it's almost like the words don't mean anything to those that hear them obviously the likes of you when you speak you know exactly what they mean do you understand where i'm coming from in a democracy in the seat of democracy describing what's going on here in don the gall it's unbelievable that we are still in the same position and that the calls from the likes of yourself and those directly affected are going on heard crazy it's a period i mean you have um and highland radio have have told the stories of our families again and again most recently that the moss family the chevlin family uh i can speak with authority about sharing moss i was in our home it's horrific as i said this is a house not fit for human habitation and you know we have a scenario where over a year ago uh county councillors asked for resources to build uh high quality modular housing that is absolutely going to be required at different locations across uh north dunny gall where you know where where you have these clusters you know any shown letter kenny milford thin valley um you know you're going to require this uh and it will have to be done so what can you explain to me because uh and again it's not no one wants to but what people are being pitched against each other accidentally right that's not what i'm trying to do here but we do know modular homes are being planned to be completed in the first quarter of next year in six seven sites around arland uh to meet our obligation to help people fleeing war-torn countries and for other reasons okay and yet no one even wants to take on the conversation about providing what is emergency housing for these families in dunny gall what is the reason for that because it seems inexplainable to me yeah and and we have to say it out loud i mean we have to say that we have a housing crisis in dunny gall the same as the rest of the country but what makes it even worse than dunny gall is a defective block the homeowners are victims of the scandal and five hundred of them are stuck in stage one they're stuck in the logjam the department of housing will not sign off in their applications they can't get access to funding they can't abandon their house because they have a mortgage to pay even if they even if they could it's extremely hard to find alternative temporary accommodation in dunny gall right now and you know we the government are willfully refusing to help like they have had strong correspondence from the mic action group they cannot deny they weren't i've put parliamentary question after parliamentary question myself and over dunny gall tds have raised this issue it'll be raised again today and at all um telling the stories and this is willful and you know what we need to do is and you've you've been exposing this yourself Greg is there are people offering houses in dunny gall right now i'm aware of them you're aware of them for Ukrainian refugees they're being turned down not embraced we have people who are out there sourcing houses i want to know what accountability is around all of that but i mean we we need to have houses for our families in distress whether it's a high quality modular housing whether it's the government intervening the other thing i want to say greg is this is you made this point very strongly when the pirate remediation scheme which is still operating today and has helped at least a couple of thousand families in Dublin and north lester to get their homes repaired the housing agency were tasked with finding temporary alternative accommodation while our homes were being repaired that's happening and has happened for about 2000 families yet in dunny gall families are expected to fend for themselves and it's just wrong uh so it's very simple you task the housing agency and dunny gall county council the the minister has to do this dunny gall county councillors have appealed for it to happen again and again i understand they're seeking a delegation to meet with the minister so the minister has the power to do this just do it uh and my fear is he's turning one set of people against another and dunny gall it doesn't need to happen that with the right attitude from government we can do what we need but i think the housing minister needs and you can't pin people down he needs to explain right why people are allowed to be in this situation without helping in in a humanitarian way we are being humanitarian in our approach to lots of things why is it because we're so far from Dublin what is your uh they said what what could possibly be the explanation that these desperate calls from from families you know for emergency accommodation emergency help we heard from the leading lung expert in Ireland that said that living moldy houses is damaging people's lungs so people could be living with that with the fallout from this for the rest of their lives or have their lives shortened as a result why do you think the government can ignore this it just seems to fundamentally come down to a lack of care unfortunately um and there seems to be a combination of a lethal combination i would say of apathy and incompetence and i think sometimes they look at what's happening and almost it feels to me sometimes like it's just too big for them it's just too big and it's just too complicated and i think that the way that they've actually handled or not managed the schemes to date is another illustration of that and and i think you know we see time and time again where even though they have full knowledge of these desperate situations it stick the fingers in the ears put your hands over your eyes head in the ground and we'll just ignore it and on we go is it delight and let Sinn Fein worry about it i mean i don't think we can give up i know is that what do you think that's maybe oh in terms of possibly possibly i all all i know is that having worked on the campaign now for 18 months what i do see is a lot of lip service and fine words and very very little action so what can happen next we had a huge protest in Dublin we have the attention of of of you know national journalists there's some great work that's been done on that recently okay we have the opposition and people like podger McLaughlin screaming from the rafters in the door and what have you and all of that's not making a difference or seems not to be making a difference and i'm not in any way trying to dash hope or give in or nothing like that don't get me wrong but if this isn't working this is everything you could have dreamed of maybe three years ago if you know in terms of where would you want a campaign to be to get attention if that's not working now what really could either force or embarrass a government into doing something it's hard to have the answers to be honest greg and i think i i can't promise i have the answers to that but what i will say is that we will absolutely throw everything behind it no i know that yeah and i think i think i think the acid test to be honest is get the scheme in place the government at the moment is telling us it's a great scheme it's going to deliver it's going to get people out of this awful situation right get it in place let's have it here working operationally on the ground and then that's the acid test because at the moment i feel that while it's not in place it's almost they can hide behind the words because it's the promise of the test is going to be putting it in place and actually allowing people to apply and it will very very become obvious whether it works so could or not exactly and i think that's what we have to press for i mean you know i i feel there is a sense something talking to people on the ground i feel there's a sense that people are waiting that they want the scheme to arrive um and they want to try it and see if it will work now obviously we have expressed our reservations about it i would love if it works you know ultimately the end game with this is get people out of this desperate situation so i think the onus on government right now is get the scheme in place and get it working effectively and efficiently and well managed because it cannot be the shambolic um a scheme that is how it manages it then because listen maybe it's individuals involved and i want to be careful with not to dump on people already under pressure but clearly something has to be done in terms of how this is administered who administers it streamline simplified progressive information the basic kind of stuff that unfortunately seems we haven't seen so far maybe i'll put that to deputy McLaughlin first and come back to you no go ahead lisa go ahead what what the campaign groups so it's it's obviously mag and also the campaign groups down the country down the country so we've got four counties uh may o donnie goll limrick and claire who are due to be on the new scheme and all of us are calling for a very very different managed um scheme it has to be more centralized effectively the last scheme was landed on the local council now i have my own thoughts about the operations there and i think a lot more could be done to actually manage it well but effectively a scheme was dumped on to the local council and they don't have the adequate resources to manage it it can't be just farmed out to the local councils and then government go grand away you go that's it and then turn the backs on it this is a responsibility of government right up to the minister to make sure that this scheme is put in place with all the infrastructure so it's managed in a very slick and effective way so we don't under end up with the shambles that we've got now you're not in your head to everything that lisa's saying there i mean your comments on this but also who administered the or who is administering the pie right scheme the housing agency so it's not a local council a local authority it's directly from the housing agency so why was that i wonder why that wasn't also applied then to this scheme which is bigger in scale because the scheme they set up the discredited so-called 9010 scheme was a grand scheme and therefore it was a minister by dunneagle county council mayo county council and they weren't resourced adequately and of course a big help for the government and that is that's the angry homeowners the desperate homeowners are dealing with people in dunneagle not interfacing with them but it's them that's creating the logjam it's them it won't sign off in 500 properties so what we need is now this new scheme we're told that the housing agency are involved in the new scheme along with dunneagle county council so you need the necessary staff you need to help people navigate this process i mean i totally agree with what lisa said thanks to the fantastic efforts of the people dunneagle the campaign that is ongoing we made substantial progress to move from what the the the discredited crap 9010 scheme to this scheme but this scheme still isn't right and we'll bring in amended legislation and try and make it better again later this year and into early next year so we need to get this scheme up and running we need a necessary staff on the ground but right now right now as we speak the urgency is to help there's not a massive number of them but there's families right now in houses that are not fit for human habitation they're dangerous it's 10 of 15 that have been identified as actual emergency cases absolutely that's that's an emergency so absolutely so that's the immediate urgency that's the emergency so that's plan a the next issue then is getting this scheme up and running as soon as possible into into next year making sure that it's fit for purposes based on the right science based on testing for mica pyrite and pyrite that means that you know it's a bit like a when you go to letter county hospital you hope when they're doing the scans and the tests it's the right scans and tests to give you the right solution and the right cure you know so I want to say that finally just I thought Lisa hold me please yeah but very very briefly I thought Lisa home was fantastic yesterday I think we're blessed to have people like Lisa Michael Paddy Dever all these campaigners and Dunny Gaul and if it wasn't for them we wouldn't be where we are now at least we have hope of a bright future for our families yeah it's amazing I agree with you that these regular people use the fact to step up and and you know try and do some well if it wasn't for us we wouldn't be where we're at now even though people are frustrated it's really is remarkable last word Lisa we'll be speaking a lot and there's a couple of big things coming up so I'm sure you'll be speaking yeah and and I think that's very that that that is the last word there's some really really important stuff coming up and that is why you know we do need a strong campaign still in place we have the regulations to come up through we have the rates that need to be looked at we've got the SEI grants we've got the big science conference that is fundamental great work being done there absolutely no this there's really really big landmark things coming through in the next in the next in the next while and we need to keep the heat on government keep their feet to the flames make them accountable for their own behavior and let's let's let's get the scheme in place and then the acid test we'll see right okay there's so much we could talk about and yet we didn't have time but we'll have opportunities as these events come up thanks Lisa all right by the way for taking this role Lisa Hall and chair of the mic action group live free in 2023 with the low GA club 500 euro cash weekly a holiday to Dubai all island final tickets and more winner takes all live free in 23.ie pride sponsors of today's show total ban on sprays proposed for more in this week's farmers journal is paul mooney crop and rush sprays in the firing line under EU plans future land designations not ruled out by minister farmer fallout from food vision dairy group report which recommends a dairy cow exit scheme Turkish buyers driving the weaning trade and farmers of two months to desone from land tax plus find out how you can reduce your feed costs this winter only inside this week's irish farmers journal 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President Johnson's telephone conversation with Speaker of the House John McCormick and Congressman Otto Passman on November 29, 1963, at 4.55 p.m. It's not going to be like the Nuremberg trial or the railroad track or anything like that, but this is, we just said, whoever thinks we'll be ready tomorrow, maybe that Monday, we think we ought to announce this thing as quickly as we can because Rusk is rather concerned about it. And we've announced the commission. Say they're going to evaluate the report. I sent you down, if you haven't got it yet, a complete memorandum on the Pearl Harbor so you'd have it, you know, on the executive order and the other things that happened. I just sent it down for information in case you'd want to get it for sort of a guidance background. Here's who I would think, who we think would make pretty good ones. Now I want to tell it to you and I don't want you to repeat it to a human being because I haven't talked to any of them. I'll talk to Russell, talk to Dick Russell, close the store holder. I'd like to have some outstanding states rights man. And Eastland was kind of headed a resolution investigating it over there.  I'd like to take the Chief Justice and John McCloy and Alan Douglas. Alan Douglas. Alan Douglas. Richard Russell. Senator Cooper. And I was considering Representative Boggs who had been talking about this stuff all the time. What's Boggs? Raheel Boggs. And Congressman Ford. Can I get any better ones that you think of? I have talked to nobody but Russell about it. Now I've got to be sure that with House and Senate don't mess with them and that I've got to have someone that can work with their justice, with the administration, with Hoover, and that has been interested in it so it's kind of like an author of a resolution. I really, just between us, I don't want Eastland so that's why I've got Russell. The Republican bill though, I'd have to consult with the House if there was a procedure you could consult with the college. Well that's on your appointments up there but this is going to be appointed by the President.  Yes. Well what do we do up here? He gave me advice. I'm just asking here, do you think there's anybody better that I could get? No. What's your judgment? No. Do you know of an abler or a better, more patriotic fellow than a Republican that would suit this mission if you were President and Ford? No. No. He's top late man. And I have a drive to the consciousness of responsibility too. And Boggs, you'd feel alright too about it again. Yes. Is anybody that's shown more interest in it? He's a good man. You couldn't have him. Those are two good men. I know. What do you don't you think? You always want to make Mr. Rayburn out of you. Dick Russell and John Cooper. Yes. Cooper. Dick Russell, yes. Good. Cooper of course is a strong man. Hoover doesn't much like McCloy. Let me see. But you'd have Cooper and Russell from this and the rest of the south. Well, they would be the cupers of border state. Russell would be the south. Boggs would be the south. You wouldn't have any. You wouldn't hear any from the north. Well, I got McCloy. I got Dallas. I mean on the legislative level. No. No. No. But I have a chief in California, McCloy from New York, Dallas from New York. You're the one to make the decision. Yeah, but I'm just, I just want to get the best judgment. I'm going to make it. You know anything about McCloy yourself? Not myself, no. My impression is very good of him. I don't, I, I, I, I, everything I've heard about him. I thought he's been very favorable about the man personally. Now I've told the chief that Eastland promised me in the Senate that he wouldn't go on and I've talked to you about it in the house. I don't want to point a commission if they're going to start a bunch of investigations. Well, as far as the house is concerned, I'll stop everything. I can't stop investigations. Well, I think we're, well too, we don't want to be testifying. Well, coming up in Dallas, Ben, I think Khrushchev planned this whole thing and he got our president assassinated. And his television saying that the assistant chief said today that he believes Khrushchev did so and so and we can see what that'll lead to us right quick. Who said that? Nobody said it, but if they do, you know. When are you going to make the appointment? Just quick as I can talk to him and get it and get an executive order drafted and so forth. I better get on with it. I just thought I wanted to talk to you before I did it, my friend. You think it's all right? The theory of the commission is absolutely correct. I know nothing on the legislative level. You see, the only thought was on the legislative level was Russell, Cooper and Boggs have three from the South. No, Russell, Cooper is not a Southerner and Boggs is not much of a... No, I agree with you that. He's been kind of off in the resolution, you know. He's been wanting to investigate it over there. Oh, Boggs. Yeah, Haley made a speech about it today. Well, he was just answering some questions. Yeah, but he's been on television three or four times about there ought to be a congressional investigation. Well, I hadn't heard of that. Yeah. Right then I'd have spoken to him. Yeah. But Cooper's considered a pretty liberal fellow, you know. There's no question about that. And Ford is from the North. Yeah. And Cooper's from a border state and he got two Southerners, but you got two Southerners, they're civilians. I agree with what I mean to offset them. Yeah, I'm not... I wasn't undertaken to argue with you. I wouldn't do that under any circumstances. Well, I sure want you to if you disagree with me. You just tell me. But the... You couldn't have better men. Yeah. But I'm just thinking of the geographical location on the legislative level. And that's something I just simply called to your conscious mind for you to consider. That you would have... That Cooper... Kentucky up North is considered South. I agree with the border state. Well, you see, from the public, though, I wouldn't have any Southerner. What's that? They're three men that appointed to represent the public. Yeah. And none of them are Southerners. No, that's true.  Well, you take care of the House representatives for me. Well, I'll... Well, how am I going to take care of them? Well, just keep them from investigating. Oh, well, that's the matter. I've been doing it. Well, goodbye. Now, listen, can I... Listen, I got outside. I had Otto Passman in here, and I was doing some paperwork. And I want to call him in from the outside and be able to say hello to him. Okay, you betcha. I got a Pakistan ambassador waiting on me since 445. But put him in. Put him right in. That's where Passman came in. That's where I've been working all the time. I'm going to be running for 30 minutes late. Otto! Hurry up. The President will... Mr. President. Yes? Here's Otto. I was having a conflict with him when you called me. He's in the outer office. That's fine. I'd like to say hello to him. Wait a minute, Mr. President. Mr. President. Otto, how are you, my friend? God bless you. And remember that I will cooperate in every way that I possibly can, and any time that I can help. I wish I could trade jobs with you, Otto. Otto, I wish I could trade jobs with you. Well, I know that you do. And remember that my prayers are with you. And I shall do everything within my power to make it any harder than I have to. And I was in here conferring with our great speaker a little while ago about foreign aid. That's not going to be an easy thing, but if and when... Otto, remember this. Remember this. This is what's just between you and me. I don't want you to repeat it to anyone, but you've been my friend. The one thing I've found out since I've been down here in my relations with 110 other nations, about all I've got is a foreign aid bill to deal with them with.  I just listened to Penny's talking to the chairman of the Atomic Energy Committee. And he said the only one knew this was Kennedy and knew the only one knows it now. And when he walked out, I wished I hadn't known it, but you can... We're spending over $100 billion this year. The budget's being made coming up to 15th. And the only thing I've got is that little checkbook of $3.5, $4 billion, whatever you give me. And you'll cut it some, but you've already worked on it. And that's the only thing I've got is 110 nations. Now, give me a year, and I'll try to sit down with you and take your recommendations and try to make the cleanup over there in any way that I can do it. I'm practical I can't do it the first month, but because they say the South is destroying everything. But I'll get my teeth into that and try to clean that agency up where it'll smell better to you. But please go home and say your prayers and say, now, I'm the banker and I can let Johnson have $400 a month or I can let him have $300.  That's all I'm gonna have and far and in aid. That's the only way I can deal with the world.  And I'm gonna do everything I humanly can, but you do it too. Can I say one thing before we get off? Yes, you can. And this will be worthwhile. It's a proper time, as I told our great speaker here. I think in 17 years I haven't asked one president to see me for 15 minutes. I don't fool people and they're busy. If and when you want to discuss this with me, I'll come running with our beloved speaker. I should say this. I want to do it. I'll tell you that now. If you want to do it with me, we'll just do it. And as soon as I can move in this place, we'll just sit down and me and you and John will talk about it. Let me do it with my speaker. You've always been so capable to me. But I want to say this before we get off the line. And I think this would be something you'd be turning over because when I come, I'll be factual. Last year, I guess maybe I was jumped on by more people and criticized more by cutting $4.8 billion in any other time since I've handled the bill. But they came back this year and said, yes, you took out a billion, but you still gave us a half a billion dollars more than we need and we're going to lose most of it. And I say, those are some things I'll have to talk to you about. And I told the speaker, I said, these people don't know what they want, what they need.  But I will say this, there's a half a billion dollars, almost a half over now, 578 million clean, unobligated funds. They were going to give most of it up. I talked to the speaker and I have arranged to tell these people how to keep a half a billion dollars. It was unobligated. And at the proper time, when you want to talk to me about this, I'll come running and I will lean over backwards, Mr. President, to help you and my speaker. Thank you, my friend. I'll be calling. Thank you, Mr. President. I appreciate it.  Anybody else, you want to come with me? When you are ready, Mr. President, because you have a lot of responsibility.  God bless you. Thank you, God bless you. Bye. All right, Mr. President.


I'm a little shorter than Pete. I'm pretty tall, but I'm a little shorter. Can y'all hear me? Yeah? All right, awesome. So this is like the third time I've given this talk. I started this talk in July here in Boston, the Design for Drupal. And then I tweaked it. And I just got back from Barcelona two weeks ago where I did this talk. And of course, things have already changed. So I had to update it again for this conference. But anyway, so I presented this in Barcelona at the Full Stack Fest conference. So it was two days of back-end, two days of front-end. Totally great. I had people complimenting me. And I was feeling really good that it was a great talk. And then Twitter intervened. And Twitter is, I think, just a little bit above YouTube comments these days in terms of people being nice to each other. But Twitter informed me that I was, in fact, wrong. And I have no problem being told that I'm wrong. It's sort of like the way I was told that I was wrong. But anyway, so the way I was told I was wrong, here, if you take a look at the W3C specification, there is no CSS4. How many of you actually knew that? A few of you? OK, cool. I did not know that. So there is no CSS4. We're not going to version the language going forward. We're going to version modules. So we'll have a version for animation. We'll have a version for grid. We'll have a version for whatever else. But no CSS level 4. And then the other thing that happened this week or in the last couple of weeks, maybe you all heard about HTML5.1, like is finally going to be a thing. Everybody cool with that? It's going to be great. We've got the picture tag coming.  It'll actually be in the HTML. We all psyched about that. OK, so it made me think of this graphic. So I fixed it. OK, so that's what we got going forward. No language or no version number for CSS, but yes for HTML. All right, everybody good? All right, good. So now I can really start my talk. So CSS is totally awesome. How many of you just love doing layouts with CSS? They make you happy. I get a few people more here. I got like two in Barcelona. It looks like maybe a third of the room here. Yeah, I mean, here we are landing, the European Space Agency, landing probes on comments, but we still have problems with CSS layout. And it's really important we understand CSS layout.  So, so important. And as we all know, we spend an enormous amount of time on these kinds of issues in modern web design. So the second most thing that we do is trying to make the layout work. Actually, this says this is a little added data. It says make it work with CSS and then go back to using tables. So I've updated it. So it now says we try to get the layout working in Flexbox and then we go back to using floats. OK, so that's a thing. And of course, the largest part of this pie is still with many of us, we're just trying to get it to work in Internet Explorer. A few of you, I know, like you live in this wonderful world where there's only Chrome and you only have to work with the most recent version. And I'd like to be you one day. But the rest of us, we're still dealing with Internet Explorer. OK, so now that we got all that out of the way, let's talk about responsive design. And for this crowd, I should probably ask the question, how many of you have no idea what responsive design is? Would anyone here actually admit it? OK, so responsive design is this. And part of my pet peeves about responsive design is that we use this word the way our clients use this word, which is, it works on my phone, so therefore it is responsive design. And that's actually not true, right? jQuery mobile is not responsive design. It's actually a different approach, right? Server side, serving up to server side templates in different ways. That's also a different approach. It's not technically responsive design. That's responsive design. All right, so semantics important. I'm from Harvard, man. You got to use your language correctly. All right, so first of all, let's just review the industry standard about floats, OK? You all know that floats are a hack, yes? Yeah, our industry standard is a hack, good times, right after our table-based layout, which was also a hack. And so this is going to feature rows and cells when we start to put floats into a grid-based system, right? And we put these two things together. We're going to put the float on the cells. We're going to put the clear on the rows. And the source ordering is pretty much going to determine our display. So whatever order we list things in the HTML, that's pretty much the way it's going to show up from left to right on the page. We can have a little bit of minor rearrangement, and you're probably familiar with that. And then the Achilles' heel of float-based layout has always been equal column heights, equal column heights. Way back in the day, I'm just going to say this for Molly, OK?  F-A-U-X, like the French false. We used to tile down background images and all kinds of cool things to make equal height columns. These days we usually do it with JavaScript, but that's how we're going to fix that problem. So if you take a look at our code, it's going to look like this, right? So we got a row, we got some cells, we got some HTML. Good times. We're going to write a little bit of CSS to go with that to style it. We have some kind of formula for clearing our rows. We've got some kind of floating and wits and so forth on ourselves. As we start to scrunch our page down, we change our media queries, we change around our wits. You all know this, right? OK? Good. OK. Because one of my other rants is that people don't actually know CSS. So then we scrunch the screen down a little bit further and we got this. Here's where we come into our problem. The weird thing that happens, like you turn on the floats and everything goes in the wrong direction, it's actually explainable if you know what you're doing. So if you've got a couple of things lined up, they start to wrap around. They can't go all the way over to the left-hand side. And so they get smushed over on the right-hand side. That's what happens. But it usually freaks most of my students out anyway. And so this is what I'm talking about that you can fix with JavaScript. And then we can also rearrange columns. And so relative positioning means that we're going to pull it out of the normal flow of the document and leave the space where that element had previously occupied that open, right? You all knew that. You say that in your sleep, yes? OK. And so then we push some stuff around. We can use the left-right top properties and so forth to rearrange things on the page. So that floats. So far so good? Good. Then we got Flexbox. How many of you are working with Flexbox? Good. Good. Good. All right. That's awesome. How many of you have not really gotten a grasp on Flexbox yet? Still working on it. Be proud. Be proud. It's the cutting edge. It's time to learn it. OK. So Flexbox. So this was actually not designed to lay out whole webpages either. We're still hacking, OK? We're still hacking. So welcome to the next Phrase of Hacking Layouts. It is designed to really lay out, like, if you think about a whole series of pictures coming in, you have a bunch of pictures coming in from the server. You don't know how many pictures you're going to get. You need to lay them out in some kind of layout on the page. Flexbox is awesome for this, OK? They're still going to have similar kinds of markup for this. We're going to have rows. We're going to have cells. Although this time they're going to be called Flex containers and Flex items, OK? And you have to have both of those in order to work. They're really good at vertical centering and equal heights. That's like one of the awesome things about Flexbox. That's why everybody's really excited about it. It's very, very easy to reorder boxes. Another reason that people are excited about Flexbox. But the major disadvantage is, once again, it's really designed, I'm calling it one-dimensional layout. So it's designed to take a long line of things and sort of wrap it around and display it. To actually harness it and have the browser do what you want it to do at every point along the way correctly is going to take some extra code. It's going to take some extra code. I'm going to show you that in a second. And the browser support and syntax for this can be challenging, depending on which browsers you want to support. So you may still be stuck with some prefixing, depending on how far back you have to support Internet Explorer. And I do feel bad for the people at the US Federal Government who are still supporting IE7. So these people do exist. OK? All right, so it's still a thing. All right, so three versions of Flexbox. We've gone through a couple of iterations for how the syntax works for this. Anybody for the bonus question today? Anybody know the one browser that supports the tweeners syntax from 2011? IE10. IE10. Yeah, seriously. So you have to do something special for IE10. And again, prefixing may still be required. Here's a little bit about the support, if you're interested in that. And so the way that HTML looks is as follows. So once again, basically the same thing that we had for floats in terms of how we're going to lay this out and make it work, our rows are going to have a different kind of code on them. So the notable things here is that our widths are not really widths when we work with Flexbox. So we use something called Flexbasis, which is kind of like a width, we'll say, well, here I said auto, but you may say it's like 45%. It's kind of 45%. We're going to try to smoosh it in unlike a float where it's actually going to wrap onto the next column if things don't add to 100%. Flexbox is going to kind of mush things around and try to make them work for you. This is me being lazy. This should have media queries wrapped around each one of those, but anyway. So this is how you're going to make your widths, which is actually Flexbasis, a little bit different for each one of your various devices. So you're going to change that. And then to reorder, it's really easy. We just say order two, order one. We're all done. We don't have to mess around with relative positioning or any of that nonsense. So far, so good? All right. Y'all are falling asleep again? No? OK. Good. All right. So then finally, we're on to CSS Grid. Yay. All right. So why CSS Grid? First of all, it is in development. The specification is changing all the time. We have yet another editor's working document published today. So what I say right now may be going out of date as I speak, which just makes it a challenging to do a talk on this. But anyway, the specification is under development. There's really no row markup required here, because we're not clearing things anymore. We're going to put a big wrapper around our whole page. That will be something that we'll add, but we're not necessarily going to think about things in a row-by-row kind of fashion. The grid is designed to work in two dimensions. And I'll show you a graphic here in just a moment that will explain that a little bit better, what I mean. And then finally, the big recommendation here, the big takeaway is that we ought to be using Flexbox for these UI elements, so that image gallery or the series of media boxes or whatever you got. But we're going to use Grid for the major layout on the web page. Grid for the major layout on the web page. So this is the graphic that comes from the CSS Working Group. It's explaining Flexbox here on the top. So notice, here we've got eight things. And for whatever reason, the browser's laid it out with three in one row and five in the next. It's just the browser doing math. And based on the settings that you chose for it, that's what it calculated. It may not be what you want, but that's what you're going to get. And if you take a look at the bottom here, this is the Grid layout example. So you see how we've got essentially what amounts to call spans and row spans, if you remember the table-based layout days. So we're back to that kind of thing again. All right, but what is the big issue with CSS Grid? Anybody know? How's the browser support? Zero. Awesome. Yeah, so there's no support without flags. So you need to set flags in your browsers in order to get this to work. Even if you do set flags, you're still going to run into approximately five bazillion bugs, especially if you work in Firefox. So I recommend working in Chrome, set the flag. And the spec is still not fully implemented on some browsers, and or there are bugs. So as you think you're implementing something correctly, you're reading a spec, you think you've got the code correct, it doesn't render correctly, it may not be you. It may be the browser. All right, so what does the code look like this time? So same kind of thing. I've got a div with a class of wrapper. Notice I've got individual classes for each one of these divs. Anybody annoyed by that? I'm annoyed by that. I'm so old, I remember classitis. What's wrong with you people? So we've got, coming along here, there are going to be some various types of additional selectors that will allow us to select individual elements here without dropping all these classes in. So there's pseudo classes coming in a couple of other ways. Nears I can tell, they're not really supported in browsers just yet. So this is the way we're working with it for now. Basically, each cell in that grid layout is going to have its own class associated with it. The wrapper itself is going to get this type of definition. So display of grid and then a grid gap of 10 pixels, the grid gap being the distance between the cells and the rows and so forth. And who is offended that I said 10 pixels? Anybody? Yeah, some of you are offended. That's great. You should be offended because it should be percents, but percents don't work in the browser. This is actually a known bug, and if you read the spec, it'll tell you that the fact that this should be percents is if they get to it, they'll actually try to make that work. But right now, they're just making it work with pixels. And isn't the talk after mine, the guy who's going to talk, or maybe that's tomorrow, the one who's going to talk about why we should not use pixels anymore? Yeah, that's soon. In the afternoon. Excellent. All right, so here's the way this code looks. So there's a couple of different ways to write your grid-based layout code. And this is the one that sort of resonates with me. And we're going to think about it this way. If you start counting the separator lines between each one of these cells that we have here, we can start numbering them. We count like humans, not like engineers. So we start with 1, not 0, which is really nice. And then we're going to basically write this out. So for each one of these cells, what is it going to go across? So this first one is going to go from 1 to 2. So thus, grid column 1, 2. Makes sense? The next one goes 2, 3, 3, 4, and then I ran out of room. So what's the last one? 4 slash 5, right? OK, so that's the way that's going to work. A slightly more complicated example, what happens if you have a layout like this where you're going to have things going down the page and things next to it? You can do that with the grid row property. So this thing here on the left, column 1, is going to go from 1, skip 2, down to 3. So 1 slash 3 for that. And that's going to be that's location on the page. Now there is some alternate syntax for this. Like I said, I like the numbering version of this. There's also individual property elements where you can have your grid column start and have your grid column end and have your grid row start and have your grid row end. Like nobody's going to do that, because nobody's going to be typing all that stuff. So I picked this. The alternate syntax is actually to have some named grid template areas. So you can actually define these areas inside of your code and say, here's a header, and here's a footer, and so forth, where exactly that's going to appear in your grid-based layout, and then refer to those areas inside of the rest of your styling. And I just sort of run out of time to talk about that. But if you go to Rachel Andrews site, which is gridbyexample.com, she does have an example of this. And you can take a look at how that works. All right, so then if we think about reordering, so we take sort of that kind of idea here that I have my wrapper. And inside of that, maybe I have a header, an article, and an aside. How might this kind of reordering actually work? And I'm going to show that to you right now, just to point out to you that there is some code that is posted if any of you would like to access that. And then I will go ahead and show you this in the browser. Reordering example. So here we go. So here we are. We have an aside. We have a header. We have a title. I'm not a graphic designer. I type in background color yellow, green, and blue really well. They kind of go together. And so as we start to shrink the page down here at some point in time, we can completely rearrange things. How cool is that? All right. Awesome, huh? So I've moved my header. All the way down to the bottom of the page. And I move my aside all the way over there to the right. That's really something you can't do with a float base grid. And as I shrink that down even further, then let's say that this is the mobile layout. This is actually the source order for this HTML. So the source order is really important for accessibility purposes. You want people to be able to read this very easily from top to bottom. And search engines like that also. So this is going to allow you to put the source order in exactly the way it should be to best serve those populations. And then you can make it appear anywhere on the page that you want. Now, why you would do this in real life, I have no idea. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. OK? So don't get all excited. Backend people, if we have any back-end people here today, they're like, oh, that's awesome. I'm totally doing that. Don't do that. OK? It's just an example. All right. And I guess I'll show you some of my other examples here that I've got for the moment. I have a page that I coded the same way three times, because only you guys could get excited about that. And so I just got back from Barcelona, like I said. So this is the Palau de Musica down in Barcelona. So here's a web page. Here's some pictures that I took. This is, again, a float-based layout here. And as I shrink my page down, things are going to rearrange. Things are going to stack on top of each other. They're going to resize until I get all the way down to my mobile version. Let's call that the gold standard. Yay. Then I coded the same thing again with Flexbox. So this is a Flexbox-based grid system. And I deliberately did not do a whole lot with these images down here. So this is the images displaying their regular size. And however they're going to do whatever they're going to do, we can apply a little bit more CSS to make them behave the way we want them to. So as I start to shrink the page down again here, at some point they sort of stack on top of each other like this with Flexbox. It looks a little odd, but it works. You'd still understand what's going on. And then they're going to go like this underneath. And then we're going to shrink it down again down to a single column. So that's Flexbox. And then grid. So how did I code this? What cells here are under control of grid? Yeah, the layout part. So my find website, my site over here and the article over here, how did I handle the pictures? Flexbox. Flexbox. So once again, as we shrink the page down here, that's going to go ahead and rearrange itself. So these all look fairly similar is the takeaway for that. And like I said, the HTML and the CSS are up on GitHub. What am I doing on time? I don't think I really have a whole lot of time to go through and go through all that code, but you are welcome to take a look at it. And of course I'm on Twitter if anybody wants to tweet me any questions. All right, so let's just wrap up here. That's my code example. So if you are interested in learning more, there are some really great resources that are out there on the web. Oops, except the W3C editor's draft was updated today, not September 8th. So sorry, that date is wrong. I should have changed that this morning. But anyway, these are sort of the main places you can go to find really good resources on that. And then in terms of my current recommendations as to how you ought to be laying out your web pages. So first of all, if you need the browser support, you can't go wrong with floats, people. You can't go wrong with floats. All right, you don't have to worry about browser support, it just works. And if you're okay with a few prefixes and learning something new, then Flexbox is a reasonable interim step until we get grid support in all the browsers. Flexbox is in Bootstrap 4, okay? So the grid system in Bootstrap 4 and Foundation 6 for that matter is float-based by default, but for both of those frameworks, if you go into their SAS files and you change, there's a property in there that you can toggle on and say, use the Flexbox-based layout instead, recompile. And that is going to give you a Flexbox-based grid system instead of a float-based grid system. So that's there, it's in Bootstrap 4 coming soon. So that's kind of mainstreaming Flexbox, right? It's time to learn it. And then keep waiting for CSS grid. I mean, good stuff is always five years away, so this is probably five years away. Maybe we'll get lucky, it'll only be three. I have mentioned that maybe somebody will write a polyfill for it. How cool would that be? And then I have JavaScript people come up to me and say, oh, polyfills and overhead and performance and yada, yada, yada. So there's no perfect solution. The browser world is what it is, right? And we get the support that we're going to get. So keep your fingers crossed, because it's going to be great when it gets here whenever that is. And I am around if you have any other questions. So thank you very much. Come sit for some chats. The future. Thank you. So do you teach your students this new stuff that hasn't come out yet? I do, I do. I have a two semester course at Extension, Modern Mobile Frontend Web Design 1 and 2. So in the fall, they're actually learning selectors, specificity. Actually, they learn float-based layout and they learn regular world positioning, because my feeling is that they don't actually know that. Right. How many of us know that? They don't know it. When they get done with my class, they know it. And then in the spring, we get into Flexbox, Grids, Animation, some other really hot, petting-edge stuff, which is really fun. But they got to know the basics first. You don't know the basics. It's hard to learn the fun stuff. Do you teach preprocessors as well? I do, everything. In the spring term, I teach them customer responsive design in SAS. And we do a little bit with either foundation or bootstrap. I haven't decided which one we're going to take a look at yet. But that's a nice way of, I think, it's a very important skill these days. Not only if you truly know HTML, CSS, and JavaScript, you can learn the next framework that comes along. It's just not an issue. Yeah, absolutely. And unfortunately, the way that the industry is trending, I see it as, I know Angular. So I'm hot stuff today until React is the hot thing. And then you're no longer hot stuff, right? So if you actually learn the basics of these things, then you can switch to whatever you want to do. But there's still definitely a place for knowing how these frameworks work because you've got to go read the documentation, you have to figure it out, and actually make it work. So I do incorporate either, like I said, either foundation or bootstrap, because I want students to start getting that sense of, how do I read a framework? And how do I start to implement it? Because I will not always be there for them. Yeah, absolutely. The super, I love what you're talking about the basics of understanding the core languages. And also that you teach new stuff, because I feel like that is so absent in so much web education. It's kind of like, oh, well, here's this thing that you need to know. And yeah, welcome. And then you see these hires. And you're like, what are you learning? There's so much interesting stuff that's out there. And I know we in academia have not done a good job of servicing our students. And that's actually a really serious kind of thing. Academia never figured out where web was supposed to fit. So it sort of wound up in the art department with the graphic designers who learned what Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign. And so therefore, how do you do web? Dreamweaver, right? And it wound up over in the business school where they go learn social media marketing and digital marketing and stuff. But they don't ever understand how to incorporate that curriculum into a web page, because that's content that drives a website. So we never get there. And consequently, also the marketers actually never learn HTML and CSS. They never know what they're doing. It's wound up in the journalism schools. So now we're getting big data into journalism schools. But at the same time, they might be learning Python, but they don't actually know how to do anything with a web page. So that's a little bit odd in some cases. So we in academia have really failed in the web department. At the Harvard Extension School, we have a digital media degree, which is where I'm teaching. Digital media. It's front-end web development, video, and instructional design. Please explain that to me. I don't know. I tried to tell the story that it is storytelling. Storytelling across media, right? So if we focus on the story, then it starts to make sense that we would put together front-end web design, video, and instructional design. We're just telling it in different media. But still, we in academia are struggling with the web, because it is so interdisciplinary and so across department. Yeah, but it's great that you're there and having folks that can champion, they can teach it, and work with other professors, and be inspirational.  So there was one question I want to make sure we do get to ask you. Someone asked, what happens if two elements are configured to cover the same cell? Kasha, that's a great question. Could that happen? I'm thinking it couldn't necessarily happen, because the way the grid is set up going across and down in terms of rows, you would not be able necessarily then, hmm, I'm going to have to think on that, because I have not tried that. Oh, we can do some hacking afterwards. We can do some hacking afterwards and see. And then the real question will be, is it the browser that is configured wrongly that is allowing us to do it or not do it, or is it actually in the spec? So potentially finding bugs, maybe. Essentially finding bugs, yeah. My guess would be that the way you really want that to work is the answer to that question to be no. Yes, ideally, right? That it wouldn't even be able to happen at all. That it couldn't happen. All right, well, we should find out. So if you ask that question, find Jen, do a little hack, and see what you come out with. See what happens. Amazing. Thank you so much, Jen. Love your talk. Yeah.