aking it to the next step is bringing those groups in and and also Here are regional employment board workforce people who are out there talking to them about the licensees jobs as well I think everybody being on the same page or having the overall awareness of what the form is looking for I think would be a great next step Well, I would go a step further to offer Not just the casinos, but the licensing department Well, they've been they've been very helpful And you know, I will point out and bill curtis mentioned to me the other day, you know Mary polgarin is a spanish-speaking Employee and she has a great rapport with a lot of the folks that may call in with questions If you know that it sometimes speaking in your first language is a lot more comfortable So he had said, you know, let's get the word out if they have questions about filling out the form They could call and we could put them in touch with Mary just to make people feel a little less intimidated And well, that was my point that could we also offer in the form well to call to if necessary if you feel There's the like, you know, he's not only that anecdote that you use or that We've all we've also heard from vendors who call licensing and they are very appreciative of the ability to be able to To talk to bill or whomever else, right? Why couldn't we offer in the form if you have any questions on these, you know, if you don't know how to answer these questions I'm gonna think if there may be something like that on LMS on the home page I'll have to check if we may already have something like that Because i'm thinking how do they how do they already know how to call because people do call When I went through the briefing I feel as though it's there, but we can clarify I did ask about whether there were interpreted Services available, right and not not in every language Right But let me check because that might already be there But that's a good thing for LMS to have on there if you have any questions about filling out the form Here is a resource for you Because they they've been great. We get great Feedback no licensing we great feedback from those who do but maybe we observe only the proactive people the people who You know who think oh, I don't I really don't know how to answer these. I better call somebody right I think a you know just noting that you could seek help in the form You could and should in many instances Talk to the casinos just like you're saying commissioner talk to others The obvious place in my mind is the licensing department. Yeah, I'll add that Into that same group introducing them the merit was a resource. Yeah And also I gotta tell you with the wave of applicant I mean it was crazy with the thousands coming in But you know when things settle down a little bit It's actually a lot more manageable to have a little more interaction And I would offer that it's probably even more efficient to have somebody Fill out, you know fill it out for right the first time around That's what we want. We want people to fill it out truthfully and completely on the front end And that's part of what licensing does is make sure that and then Then things move so much more efficiently on the back end. So we are 100 in favor of that I just want to thank um director wells and and iv for being responsive. I think that this Is derived from a decision that we made on an appeal We we noticed that the form could use some improvement just for clarity and you're very responsive An obvious change is that there's more rule So that it prompts Individuals to to be able to clearly write in their responses There's a lot more simplicity and clarity. So I think that the The form is very responsive And I think that we can be nimble and continue to improve it as we learn more and more how challenges Arise for any applicant Other other questions or Comments or suggested edits for this So this that what's in the packet is the um is the actual form it's itself So it asked, you know for a vote on on that the uh the language on the licensing team and the contact number and also the applicants Checking with the casino hr department. I can just work with bill on that I don't I don't necessarily need a vote for that, but it'd probably be helpful to have a vote on the the form for the packet But But we'll include that language in the form eventually. Well, well The form instruction. It's it's sort of the instructions in lms versus the form. I may be maybe splitting hairs there as long as people Reasonably can see it up front. Exactly. Exactly. So we'll have we can even run through like a test on lms And make sure somebody can see it because most Not almost all these applicants are doing it on the licensing management system So that's where we really want to make sure people are identified. I understand. Yeah Any further questions for director wells? I have a motion Madam chair I move that the commission approve the modifications to the criminal history section and the license and application forms as described by commission staff today And as included in the commission packet Any further questions discussion Commissioner Stebbins all set Do you have any are you noticing something that you want to bring up? Um Just for clarification. Thank you, madam chair. Just for clarification Karen Ceiling of records only pertains to those things Somebody might have done as a youth under 18 An adult You could bold not required to disclose. This is this language is exactly from the regulation. So what it says You're not required to disclose records of criminal appearances. That's adult Criminal dispositions adult And or any information concerning acts of delinquency that have been sealed. So there's a broader scope for delinquency In the regs. So this is exactly tracking the reg and we've got an issue on the sealed records Which we're going to bring before you again, but right now This is exactly how the languages is in the in the regulation which you promulgated years ago Okay, right. Would it make sense to make that's a sequence? So that no one It has to be anything of delinquency that's sealed Like i'm not really following well the way I read it I'm putting we put it in there because this is exactly what the reg says So I wouldn't want to deviate from the reg or sort of modify that because this is exactly what the regulation says so What we're going to be bringing forward before the commission is we're going to ask for some clarification on exactly what you want this to mean So we'll have but this is exactly what it says. So how we implement it. We want to make sure you're comfortable with But um, this is exactly how it reads. So that's why make sure We don't deviate So we have a motion before us that's been seconded I believe what I'm hearing from director wells was stay tuned. There will be clarity sought for that Particular class and we may in keeping exactly To reflect the regulation Do we have further questions or discussion? All those in favor Opposed For zero. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you It is 440 and we have one more matter on our agenda Other than our commissioner updates and anything else that would be brought to our attention commissioners And mr. Grossman in the back of the room. Are we all going to proceed at this juncture? Felon I think we can do a very short overview and then my recommendation would be I don't know what the agenda looks like for springfield We whether we then have the substantive when commissioner Cameron is back in springfield so that we can kick it off briefly but given the time I think I think we do very very brief overview and then I'll just continue this on this item I didn't want to get too far in the discussion without her. So, right exactly I think that's a great idea Do you do you want to can I start with that overview? We have a mr. Grossman come up front too. Thank you She would like that mr. Grossman We'll take everyone's lead on how you want to proceed You want a brief overview? That's not my forte, but I can try to one A brief brief. We will knock you off your cadence We need to come up with a renewal scheme for Is your telephone voice So, well the synopsis is that The casino licenses run for five and 15 years respectively ppcs license expires on june 24th Of next year. We do need a mechanism by which to Consider the renewal of that license the law In a number of areas requires a commission to come up with the renewal scheme There is not a lot of meat on the bones in the statutes when it comes to prescribing Exactly what the commission needs to look at Other than the fact that you have to have a renewal fee And one other minor detail about impacted live entertainment venues Otherwise the statutes don't get into a lot of detail about what the renewal process should look like We did look at a number of other jurisdictions to get a sense as to how Other jurisdictions handle renewal processes There is no one model that Is used in any place, but there are a few themes that tend to emerge Most jurisdictions will look at things like the suitability of the entities and the individuals involved As well as the financial stability of the operation Including the parent they all seem generally speaking to be less Thoreau than the initial what we call rfa one licensing process And of course we can get into it a later time some of the particulars which we lay out in the memo That you have before you as to how other jurisdictions handle that There were a few threshold Questions that we thought would be helpful for the commission to consider As we set out to come up with a process which I would submit would be best done by way of regulation Just to clarify for all the players involved What the process would be of course the two category one Licenses won't come up for renewal for about 14 or 15 years at this point So could be modified in the intervening years, which may or may not include any of us. So The right Well, it may include a different panel just by virtue of the statue. I'm not yes So the first one of the first questions to look at is a licensing fee whether you think There has to be a licensing fee for category two. It has to be at least a hundred thousand dollars And it will of course include The cost of any investigation that goes into The renewal process the question though not that it needs to be decided definitively here today or even at your next meeting Is whether you want to Assess any additional fee on top of that Um, some states assess millions of dollars others assess very little Um, the as we note in the memo the commission took the long view The first time it looked at the assessment of a licensing fee and assessed the statutory minimum with the Philosophy that it would prefer that any additional available funds be put into the Establishments themselves. So that's something to think about something to consider Looking at the other jurisdictions there may or may not be helpful Because there's no one way of doing it Let's see the um The term of the licenses is another interesting question And this might be a longer conversation, but just to put it on your radar The statutes, uh, and there are essentially two sections talk about the clearly the initial terms Of the licenses in the case of category one is 15 years and the category two is clearly five years The question is whether you have any inclination to Adjust those for the renewal periods and if so we can certainly consider Whether that would be allowable under the statute or not And of course, there are a variety of reasons you may or may not want to to do that The third question is really the big ticket item Which is what types of issues are you interested in exploring as part of the renewal process? We've talked a little bit about the suitability of the individuals and the entities the financial stability of the Entity and the parents is of course, uh important Uh, there are other things to consider like compliance with, uh, license conditions Throughout the period of the licensure Uh, the compliance with hosts and surrounding community agreements with the iLev agreements all that kind of stuff And all those things are fair game Uh, for review certainly, uh compliance with the capital expenditure plan, whether it's, uh, doing what we'd hoped it would do Whether that needs any adjustment These are all things to think about as part of a renewal process Of course, all these things are also things you can just do on a daily basis as we oversee the casinos To ensure their compliance on a regular basis And finally and I don't necessarily Think this is the case, but if there are any issues with the statute that require legislative Updating then, uh, the door is left open in the statute to Send those over to the legislature for consideration. There was nothing that jumped out In need of adjustment, but the statute does open that door for us so Those are the main issues that we wanted to Bring up And by we I mean commissioner o'brien commissioner zoonica and I have discussed these issues on a number of occasions But wanted to of course, uh, bring this to the full attention Of the commission time is of somewhat of the essence in that, you know, we need to have a process in place for the re Licensing the potential relicensing of playing with park casino coming up next year Thank you. That's a that's a great synopsis. I um, I would just, um Add a couple of things that, um, since the packet, uh, there's more information in a nice, um Chart that that you dug up, uh, that that you only alluded to but we could provide In terms of context for for what other states do I would, um, perhaps put them in a couple of different buckets. There's a few states That have unlimited license licenses that I would say it's good for us to know but really doesn't really apply in terms of, um, you know, the similarity to us, um, given the competitive nature and the Limited number of licenses that our statute, um, has so there's other states that may provide more, um, Similarities into how we might go about doing this It's probably fair to say that everybody Has some kind of process just like you articulated that we would also mirror to some Have or parallel to some degree The bigger question is those threshold issues that you that you mentioned The term in my mind is is is a big one the licensing fee I do believe, uh, and this is part of what we really should discuss at a later time with more, uh, a discussion about this That there is a presumption of relicensing That the notion not only in other states that we looked at but certainly in our in our case here, um That it would be really quite disruptive or overly unnecessarily ambitious to think that we could just simply rebid these License we would really have to account for what would be the asset that we currently License on their pen that we do not own There are cases in, uh, Canada for example where the government does own the asset and they bid the operator and it's fairly straightforward to just Change operators because that's not the scheme that we have here and for many other reasons that I guess We could also get into At least my read is this presumption of Relicensing now we don't have to give it away for free and that's the point of The threshold questions that you will articulate and and that's how we embark on the discussion Do you want to add to that? No, and just that we had asked Attorney Grossman to do that to see if there was anything on point That would be particularly helpful in terms of guiding us. There's really nothing that speaks directly to what we need I do think it's helpful to see so we can eliminate what we don't want and go forward with it I think there was a comment made about Maryland maybe being close to Similar to us, but of course they're not an apostrophe to renew anyone anyway And so they're not even in theory. They would be helpful. It might be the other way around that they'd be looking at us later Um, and so the questions that are in the memo I think are sort of the primary questions that we think we need to decide on before we then set up the regs For exactly how this is going to work Imagine continuing this agenda item potentially on the 26th. Absolutely. Yes. Yep Todd, thank you for the overview that was excellent And I do think we will put it um on the agenda for continued Discussion so that we can give More helpful guidance at this at this point and really spend some time chewing on the Issues that you've outlined, but it gives us a chance Well You'll update commissioner cameron. It gives commissioner stephens and me a chance to really think about other questions we might have so We'll Push it out for now to september 26 Right But that's okay. Great sounds good All right now Do we have any commissioner updates? Are you sure motion the adjourn? Well, I did want to go over item number 11 Those matters reserved for any that the chair thinks had not reasonably anticipated the time of posting I'll set A motion to adjourn second and all those in favor. Hi Those opposed Of course zero. Thank you. Thanks everyone for your attendance and your vigilance. Thank you


Quick introduction, my name is Srikanth, I run this volunteer initiative called cashless consumer which aims to make consumers as stakeholders in the payment system. So we track closely every pay tech developments closely and put together like consumer perspective into that so that that makes the products consumer friendly not just in terms of say user interfaces but the overall experience a couple of disclaimers so one is technical disclaimer I am not from the payment industry I am an outsider I am a consumer so whatever access to knowledge that I have is from second hand information and publicly documented specifications documents and whatever is there on the web and I don't have say an industry inside access the other political so I could be factually wrong so if I am wrong please feel free to correct me and then the political disclaimer there are a couple of things so when talking about UPI so majority not maybe in this room but outside think that UPI is the government's product but it's not it's a product of a private company which is in the job settlements and which is formed by a bunch of banks and so here we are talking not about say countries platform it's a platform it's a payment platform by a private company let's get that clear and the other political disclaimer is in the technology world just around the other Audi they talk a whole lot of decentralized systems that's the Bitcoin ICOs and all those stuff whereas like we see that UPI is fully centralized system so to speak so there may be differences of opinion in that so I am not going to go into that so if you are into that debate like we will probably not talk too much about it we will probably get started with the understanding that this is a centralized system but like I may have my own political opinions on that so on say the centralized versus decentralized debate and the privacy security debate and those things I will see I will try to be an observer from the distance but please apologize if I hurt your sentiment with that we will see a quick overview of what we are planning today we will make some platform observations like how the overall UPI as a platform or an ecosystem is progressing and what what I learned from some of these NPCI circulars which are there in the public on their NPCI website and like how to read between the lines and know what's happening in the UPI ecosystem and I will also make some technology observations technology observations would be like reading through the specs or the how a product is being implemented and like so that could be like the design choices that are either technical and how it impacts the user and also we already talked about like a bunch of UPI integration so we will see how UPI integrations have and what sorts of design choices they have and how they impact usability and then we will talk about consumer observations so this is like the typical consumer experience so he just said like 10% merchants don't get a call back and that results in a poor experience for the consumers right so in that have in that environment what's the grievance framework or what's the regulatory framework for disputes and how long does it take and things like that but even when that is aside then there are still a lot of people loving it like simply because it makes their payment seamless we will see like why people are loving it and then we will see into the data debate so there is a whole lot of discussion around say privacy security of data other non other and besides from other there is the concept of say centralization and what it could have impact on your privacy and right we will see what are consumer observations on that and we will have a quick sneak peek into what's coming on UPI v2 so firstly like we will see what UPI by numbers are there are 67 bank issuers so this means that if you are a customer of one of those 67 banks you can install any of these UPI apps and get started transacting UPI and this is probably a largest larger number in India because typically the mobile banking world had say the top 10 banks had rich apps and then they say the next 20 or 30 banks would have some sort of an app where you can transact and that too maybe in a limited manner but not say not to merchants and things like that but this this number of 67 banks thus is the largest in in some sense also although I am PS to an extent has more apps as well and then there are 44 VP issuers so now to understand this we need to understand the notion of who is a payment service provider and who is a bank so bank is where you store your money but a payment service provider is a service provider with which you interact and through them you can use transact your money that's stored in the bank so they may be the same so the bank can be a payment service provider but say non banks can as will be a payment service provider so there are these 44 non banks 44 payment service providers who have direct access to the payment infrastructure they are called the VP issuers so you will have all this so in the UPI you have a VPA where you say Vimal at UPI or something so that's the ad portion there are 44 different entities that are issuing IDs like that and they issue 56 IDs they're close to 75 apps we'll quickly see what these apps are and a small distinction there are three non bank PSP partners in UPI so a distinction will probably that is will be covered in tomorrow's talk on regulation as to how banks which are owning and controlling payment systems and how there are other entities let's say the Google Tays and and phone pay and beam so these are the three entities which are actually technically not owning a banking license but still have direct access to the payment and settlement infrastructure through partnership agreements and the numbers like like this is the larger numbers of entire UPI volume and value transacted over the year so there are 75 apps right so what are these 75 apps like why do why do we need 75 apps to begin with it's like on this when we look closer like there are 49 of these apps are by the banks themselves so remember there are 67 banks that are actually UPI enabled but not all not all banks need to actually make the apps so they can just since the app any app in UPI ecosystem is supposed to be interoperable any other UPI participating banks there are 49 of these banks who have launched their own apps and eight of these apps are specifically focused on the merchant acquiring experience so this is like these are not the consumer apps which we use but this will be for the merchant or point of sale counter so instead of a past machine they can just install an app which can then accept UPI payments so the eight of these apps are focused for merchants and there are 19 deep integration apps so this could be the Ola Uber or the Samsung Pay or the Truecaller all these apps which which have their own functions but they also add UPI into their app as an integration either for their own payment needs or say for example integrating or expanding UPI footprint and then while we say this over the last year there are three apps that have also gone shut this is because since there are this is a very crowded market there are a lot of these apps probably some companies which did not see value how to make business sense out of this probably then went like shut because beyond a point paying and receiving and making value out of it is probably very difficult in a such a crowded market the average app update frequency rise somewhere around like a month so if you are using an app which is not updated for over a long period of time it is probably time to change an app because there are 75 apps and there are apps which are like well maintained so some platform observations one is this is a digitally inclusive platform so I made the point that seventy sixty seven banks have on boarded so a large part some 10 to 20 banks are cooperative banks and say rural banks which do not have necessarily any digital infrastructure that is well in place which can interact with say the tier one infrastructure so all these customers of these banks were previously were probably having only a rupee debit card which was not possible to transact online in all places which which they can probably transact at a limited number of much and much in establishments now they they have the ability to transact say through the flip cards and Amazon's and wherever UPI is so that's the inclusion part in there and the multi and multilingual payments apps so this is something that around the time of demonetization there are hardly like two or three apps which are like really multi lingual on and so beyond English so the entire payment experience was restricted pretty much to a person only whose knowledge is in English but now there are probably a dozen apps which are having like multi lingual interfaces and this is becoming a new norm so that like any new payment company that comes in is probably also automatically getting into the multilingual payment and although in the tier one population the PTP transfers were still in at a nascent phase not many only the tech savvy used like lot of these apps including say even Paytm before demonetization right so it's not it's not probably very common for your parents to use something like this prior to demonetization but but UPI bought a lot of these people into installing these apps and trying out and the biggest advantage for them is they didn't have the they didn't lose the comfort of storing part of their money in a wallet that they don't they didn't trust much it's still in their own bank which they trust better and so as I said like UPI decouples the UX to the payment service providers who probably could build better apps but still inside a banking model so wherever so in terms of commercial agreements or anything you still need to have a partnership agreement with the bank so and and only through that license you could still get access to this UPI so what it also made was a lot of these prepared instruments or wallets were having a lot of these transactions being made digitally and banks were actually losing in that front this UPI made a shift of moving the volumes of PPIs into UPI and it's actually a myth to say that interoperability didn't exist in wallets before because interoperability means that say moving money from say your Airtel money wallet into your ICICI pockets account now many people might think that this is not possible before and only UPI could make this shift right but it's actually not true because all these at least both these wallets they do have cards supported in them and you could transact money from one of these wallets into the other so interoperability did exist in a limited way but UPI broad based it among the banks so that like you could transact through any app and the next the roadmap on the UPI has now has wallets on UPI so wallets will be soon integrated into UPI so they'll probably become the payment service providers or they may even be at some level treated at par with banks over the course of time so that's to be seen like what sort of integration wallets will be made into the UPI so the initial phase one would be the only wallet to wallet interoperability will exist in a phase two when the full KYC is done probably wallet to bank integration would be so far then the next observation is UPI is also touted to be the most developer friendly or developer first product which is like having a lot of these APIs which developers can consume easily and and build apps faster but what we've seen is while there have been integrations happening between these apps they've not been at a scale where like where the UPI has been so UPI itself the consumer base have exploded like anything like you have these millions of users installing apps and transacting but when you come to the business side of things where like the app integrations there haven't been enough in deeper integrations and like the payment experiences still remain largely the same and probably in some cases it's it's worse I'll take an example on IRCTC of how it's actually much harder in UPI but on one observation like there is this new digital chip fund app which is based on UPI so this is probably that was not possible before UPI to build as quick as what they've done but these are the sort of integrations or the applications that could potentially come out of UPI although it's like not rolling out faster and as expected so then the other thing is about like is it UPI or Beam UPI because there is recent there is UPI in UPI was the centralized payment platform that was launched and Beam was actually one of the applications in UPI but recently they just changed the convention like they just called everything is Beam UPI so let that it may be but what the point here is now UPI as a platform is much larger platform covering all these 46 payment service providers and Beam is one of the payment service providers and if you look at the market shares of the transaction volumes and values Beam is actually emerged as a service road kind of thing so you have this well six lane toll highway which is like super fast and then you have a service road or parallel to that so Beam is emerging as that service road so you're having this global big tech players like Google has come in so WhatsApp is going to come and then there is the Indian Paytex so you have the Paytm and phone pace and also a lot of these startups there are probably a dozen startups and then there are banks again big and small you have the ICICI's HDFC's and then there's bunch of small banks all of them are in this ecosystem and it's it's tough to predict like what is actually moving this ecosystem at what pace and there have been bunch of issues in the initial days so one of which is probably like ICIC blocking phone pay there has been friction between the banks and payment service providers and banks within themselves and like all these were like solved through some sort of rules and regulations around interoperability and off late there has been recent like tussles around like capital dumping so is all the volumes and values bigger because there are more cashbacks and like there are few companies which have the bandwidth to dump capital into cashbacks but we'll see how that goes then I'll quickly walk through the circulars around interoperability guidelines meant that the apps were seamless any app to any app any PSP app to any PSP app works and one of the interesting observation is that UPI never had a chargeback policy so unlike cards which had a chargeback policy like you could dispute a transaction and then it gets reversed UPI never had it until recently they've recently announced that chargeback process is in place and it may take at most 60 days for you to get your money back for a say a transaction which you dispute and there is also a point so like Dilip explained how multi tired this entire process flow when a transaction happens and that causes a lot of technical failures so banks have been asked to improve their infrastructure to make sure that the technical declines failures reduced to 1% and there's also one more circular which says that you got to make sure do your due diligence before balance check is enabled in third party apps now why should my taxi company app which is integrated UPI even have the feature to check my balance like is that even a valid use case so this is probably happening because now banks are become more cautious around like data and data protection they don't want to have every application have the same sort of access and they ask they're asking banks to do the due diligence to that technology observations will quickly see platform tech observations the application observations the qr story pause and the integrations so at a platform level UPI has something has technically has something called an equivalent of one time virtual net safe cards which is like a user through vpa but sadly very few two or three apps support that and even they are not very usable so for a end user there is not much of a privacy option that exists in reality and UPI also has support for cards and wallets and they can also technically work with any other settlement system so right now they work with the imps settlement system which has its own merits and demerits but they can technically work with other settlement systems as well so what are the observations on apps so every app will have this common features to pay collect create a vpa show a qr code scan a qr code all these things are pretty standard features across all these apps there is this bill splitting feature which was probably there in all the UPI apps but never took off because maybe socially we aren't engaged like convinced around the concept of splitting the bills we probably don't split our restaurant bills as often as people do in the best then all these apps have the reminders to pay bills and saw these apps also have bill payments integrated through the bvps so you can pay all your mobile postpaid bills electricity bills utility bills they also have card payments they have paid to other this is a small observation here the pay to other is very unsafe in sense like you key in another and the response to that pay by the bank to say that the payment is confirmation this payment actually happened it sends back the other number in the filling text so and the accessibility features so this is again as as one of the factors that has improved because of a lot of these apps want to differentiate themselves so beam for example has a talk back feature which lets enable user to use the talk back feature instead of seeing this game so qr codes so the bigger promise on qr codes is that qr codes will be like everybody will keep scanning and paying and like this is the chinese revolution that has happened a couple of years back people expected that to replicate in India but sadly dent qr codes are largely used to identify vps at most when they are used there is a lack of certification among these apps so this actually breaks the function also if you if i create a qr code based on the specification any other up is also supposed to support it but in reality it doesn't work there is and that causes like friction there are fewer merchant establishments showing actually the stickers but why that's because like there is an unclear strategy even within the banks themselves as to whether to use upi or barqr and what's the merchant incentives the merchant discount rates and stuff like that so upi has thus have the barqr integration a detailed post is out there in the handbook of what this integration is about and but barqr still is non-starter because again the mdr and the discussions around incentivizing payments for the banks is still a discussion between the government the banks then there is also the audio qr so google tests lets you transmit the same qr information through audio so you can technically make a audio payment and potentially soon very soon you'll probably be having also voice driven payments so next is the upi pos thing so this is a interesting feature from the ground up because the merchants always want a paper receipt so and they were far more comfortable with the pos machine because all the employees are trained in pos machine so they actually innovated the existing pos machine to make it smarter to add upi option which lets the pos machine show a qr code which a person can scan the upi app and that actually prints the confirmation which so it's a success for the merchant and so that's one hack but this is not seen much adoption in the market or maybe because there is not much of awareness within people and the merchants the other thing that phone pay is trying is this calculator pos we need to see how that goes and the mdr debates are still continuing that's the crux of the debate like who will pay the mdr whether the merchant has to accept the charges or the would the government remember so that's and is that really helping currently it's not probably a clearer policy might might help we'll quickly see what kind of integrations are there in upi so you have the payment processors a lot of these payment processors have upi options so they ask you to feed in your vpa and they'll send you a collect request all you need to do is take your phone and say approve and enter your pin and the payment completes now this is probably easier but we'll come to the hard case of say the ire ctc now everybody here would know that ire ctc is like a war zone like you need to make that everything quick there right but upi actually makes it like painfully slower because it first redirects to a page where you need to enter vpa and then you need to take out your phone and you need to wait for the collect request notification to come and once that comes in you open the v open the app enter the app pin first to open the app and then enter the upi pin to authorize the transaction and then wait for that browser screen to actually detect this payment whether it is con success or failure and then move to the payment confirmation page and after that is where the ire ctc ball comes now this is actually very convoluted process for making this payment simpler there are some efforts being made to make this slightly better but that still won't solve at least for ire ctc it won't solve we'll then see like the app integrations so there are some of these apps say uber and ola they have tighter app integrations so but even they some of them actually send out collect request the problem with that is the collect request is sent out with an expiry time so the collect request more or less expires typically in the case of uber you take a ride you you don't open the uber app again and you open the uber app only the next time and you want an uber so this this problem exists with cards as well with two factor and this is not solved with upi probably it may get better with the e mandates of pre authorized payments and there is also this vpa creation health so every app that has got tighter integration wants you to create a upi vpa that's that's not always necessary actually you can take an existing vpa and use it but that's like that's a problem in the integration strategy of that particular app right we'll see quickly see some of the user risks and attacks auto creation of vpa is one risk then spam control and fraud so on auto creation of vpa so beam auto created with a phone number which lets and since the upi spec also has like if you provide a vpa and it'll give you back the original verified name of that person so that became a privacy issue and then beam later plugged it with a disabling option to disable such auto created vps but even today a large number of psps do create auto create vps based on your mobile number and the reason they say for that is like you know these people are actually it's too complex for them to even understand the concept of vps so we help them get started automatically by auto creating their vps and and that has it's privacy implications as well and google says also auto created their vp is with the gmail id so if you have ever used your own gmail id on this it would have created with your email id and that's the ability to actually do this and what this actually makes is for an attacker if he knows your gmail if you know your phone number he can predict your vpa and he can raise a collect request and this and we'll see in the next slide of even when that is not the case there are actually attacks of different kind so when in a vpa you have you can actually have the ability to raise a collect request so that's the pulled mode right so anybody can raise a collect request to anyone else like if i know your vpa i can raise a collect request now what happens is if i'm a stranger i'm spamming you right so you can do a spam control and say block all the requests from this particular handle now that works if i'm a person but what is i actually use a e-commerce site so occasion point here is somebody is actually has harvested my vpa so there is a list of database of vpas out there already in the gray market which has my vpa which i've never actually transacted the only place i put this on is on my blog where i used it for an example but this vpa got harvested somebody is actually using it through flipkart and they've actually raised a bulk payment of 76000 this is probably some led tv or something and the best part is even flipkart does not know this because they can they can't technically know from where it was raised although if say the deep log monitoring is actually in place the we could trace out and in one case i did actually trace out with patreon it happened to be some guy in up so there are these these attacks these are real and we need solutions for this so there are partial solutions but they're they're not enough for the the fraudsters are always smarter right so then we'll actually look at the large scale frauds that have taken place in upi so one is the upi hack in one of the banks which was possible through a factor that they didn't have a reconciliation process so what was happening was a bulk of payments were processing and the other party was getting paid whereas no money was getting detected from the account from which the transaction was made and this was later discovered and they found some 25 crore value transactions were happening through this then there is also this new sim attack so in upi a bunch of guys who were with the bank colluded with some criminals and they got a new sim card using and they also had the debit card details so they could set the upi pin and they transacted as as measures so upi is probably need to take a lot more measures against this so they did try something called as beam cyber security hackathon there are some 1500 people who registered but nobody ever heard back after that so we don't know what and in fact that probably also has some amount of these hacks listed there i don't know how that is getting fixed but essentially a lot of security education is required among developers and users and also certification to help like the app certify we'll see the consumer observations on regulations like the grievance literacy mechanism is in scaling so the problem right now is like every other transaction is failing and people are gonna like tweet it back so i have this joke so like people now every now and then tweet to the prime minister saying that this this transaction failed in beam so the reason for that is again like as dilip said that these are multi-party systems and you need to have a high degree of reliability reliable systems and when one of the systems break in the chain like the transaction fails like so there is one on technology scaling the other thing is let's say even if the failure happens the operations of the banks need to actually scale the support to even at least respond to the support request so actually every up app has a dispute management section but you will find that hardly few banks or few psps respond to that and even when they respond they'll say we are still looking at it we're still looking at so the lot of these consumers are actually frustrated and they are probably dropping off the payments what we also need to help is more open data on qs parameters of banks are their servers up and running at 99.99 or what percentage it is and so service delivery or are the transaction processing through fine like what's the percentage of failures and what's the grievance handling mechanism sle all these things need to be having an open data and not just that the open data around the operations of the network provider itself so npci itself needs to provide open data about what's the qs parameters of upi switch right but why are people still loving it the large number of people actually use it so this can be seen in the volumes although one what might say that a lot of these volumes are because of these incentives but the truth is somewhere in the middle where a lot of people actually finding value to use these instant payments systems and it's also because this is the only payment infrastructure which is instant and like available widely and it's a monopoly so obviously people are going to use it when there are no other choices right because neft still takes few hours at best the upi will continue to grow and people will move from neft to upi because it's instant until they realize a point maybe where they see the support is not up to their mark right we'll talk about concerns so there are concerns about data centralization so if you see the upi architecture every transaction that you make gets logged in a central system so that's that could cause a very detailed profile of you of your transaction which the data of which can be used in multiple ways so that's one big concern and the next thing is terms of service loading so if you have attended caught up on the last year's talk we saw that like a lot of these terms of service are like very complicated and they load phrases and and we did highlight that we need simpler terms of service which is actually clearer to the consumers and companies can't obfuscate and after like couple of months of that so the beam app did a terms of service overloading where they said like we can you give you authorize permission for us to monitor calls between you and other users of upi which is essentially phone tapping agreement right you authorize them and then they corrected that saying that when you call our call center then we can monitor your calls which is at which point npc did not even have a call center to begin with so but this is still a concern like we can't keep watching all these terms of service day in and day out we need to find a better way of how we can do that and then there's this whole notion of vpa gives you privacy right but at two levels so vpa gives privacy only to the transacting party and not with the network so the network still has a centralized data about your transaction trades right and the the the reason for that is like upi was probably designed a few years back before the supreme court judgment and upi needs a privacy friendly architecture and there will be probably a question so upi is highly efficient because it's centralized and decentralized systems like bitcoin is burning all the energy and it's it's inefficient so and centralization in settlements is always been there in in banking and settlements so but we need to figure out like can privacy still exist in some sort of centralized settlement architecture now if you if you've seen the imps also is similar architectures but it's slightly more privacy friendly there are protocols like intellectual multiple settlement entities settlement modes these are some of the solutions this is something about what i did any coincidences to what somebody else is doing at a very bigger scale are merely coincidences we call this as i call this as metadata surveillance but people then say like no it's not metadata surveillance it's fraud and risk management now i did the cashless as cashless consumer i did it to myself like i am actually collecting data without any actual intelligence or actioning on that data i'm tracking all these upi apps day in and day out probably there's this tracker sheet which lists all these apps their features and stuff like that i'm also logging there will be a tweet from this handle every day as to which app got updated and i'm liking all the metadata like each what's the app rating of each app what's the new update what's the recent update on the app and what's the recent message that they've put on the app update and all these are getting long so again this is desa data amassment sans any actual intelligence or action i'm just dumping all the data i'm not saying who else is doing this so we'll quickly pick into upi v2 what are the features one is other authentication for transaction authorization so instead of upi pin you'll use other and the e-mandage i believe in the next talk will be covered in detail and and signed intense is the other feature which could probably let you open the app directly if it's a authorized merchant so we'll other authentication maybe like it's going to be too complicated you need to have a on the go pen drive with another device and that needs to have an another app which encrypts your biometrics and all these things need to be like and the usability of this is simply just not there like you won't you don't want to plug in an on the go device with an biometric reader and then use the biometrics even if you believe in that and and then like the context which is between the apps just to do the authorization is just too hard like probably what can be this can never probably work even secure way in a privacy friendly way and in a convenient way maybe like if you're like five years down the line there may be a situation where a secure voice biometrics is actually there like where your authentic authorization is also through your voice biometrics but we are still not there right today e-mandates will change the way how emi's are done there's also option of push and pull mandates something like similar to push and pull payments so it's not that always you need to sign up the emi form that your provider can sign up and you just approve and this also has a qr so you can probably scan qr codes on a website which does say subscriptions and you can do with like one click or two click subscriptions so use cases taxidates so pre-art payments for taxidates so upi paytm already existed they're right now bringing that back into upi itself so like your taxidates can be automatically paid and say food delivery subscriptions the biggest bet for them is like the consumer durables emi's so right now you have to fill up forms and get these emi's or say some cards offer you at the checkout to convert them as emi's or now you need to call up the customer care all that's going to be a history you're going to have like UPI mandates which can do emi's and but this also has some concerns around are mandates valid without signature and you are actually liable for your mandates so and mandate bounce is treated at par with check bounce so that could affect your credit score that could affect criminal technically a merchant can do criminal proceeding against you as well and there are a lot more gray areas around say e-sign as well which needs to be discussed deeply so signed intents again like we are moving into a world of audio qr nfc bluetooth where you don't actually see what's coming in over the air there is a possibility of manly middle attacks so they are going to hash the entire intent and so that is that hashing and through a signature which is like given for the pre-approved merchant so that's the signed intents part of it and that's it


Behind me stands the epitome of luxury and sophistication. Behind me stands a 15.9 million rent home that houses 5 bedrooms, 4 bathrooms, lush green lawns, pools, tennis courts, spacious family areas and incredible bedrooms and bathrooms. Join me as we tour this Hampton style haven and find out why it should be your next new home. My name is Chad Rivera, this is the Private Property Home Shopper Show. Welcome home. Welcome to this beautiful 15.9 million rent home right here in the heart of Hampton and what a home it's going to shape out to be. Right now we're standing in the entryway and double doors comprise of that entryway flanked on either side with a window letting you look not only at your parquet, but also at the water feature on the far side of the wall above me a chandelier and all the space for you to customize this entryway to your desire. Right now however we've got a piano dominating front and center so if you're definitely into music this home is for you. The tiling also is beautiful and suits the makeup or should I say the design of this house perfectly and along this wall are all your different living areas. Starts off with your TV room, an outside area, a lounge suite and then the dining room. Let's start off on the left hand side, work our way from the kitchen all the way across and let's take a look at what this home's got in store for us. Follow me. Through the first door is your dining room and this is a massive dining room to put it mildly. Up above our heads you'll see this checkerboard shaped ceiling really bringing that design style of the Hamptons right here to Houghton. Just below that hang two chandeliers above this massive polished mahogany table and this should easily be probably the biggest dining room table we've ever seen with 21 seats around it.  Two separate doors open up onto your yard as well as your patio and both of those again reinforce the feeling of you being somewhere special in the Hamptons or possibly one of those beautiful villas with all the greenery you see, the tennis courts to your left and then the pool to your right. But directly adjoining this dining room is your kitchen as well as your kitchenette and an office area or maybe even a cigar room depending on how you'd like to configure it and that's where we headed next. Through another set of double doors we come to this room right over here, the perfect place for a respite after the massive meals you're probably going to enjoy in the dining room area.  It's got a set of aluminum stackable glass doors that open up onto your patio and the grounds after that and it's plenty spacious with a dining room table, lounge suite, sound system and some cupboards and display cabinets fitting in very easy. Which means the next owner really gets to let their imagination go wild and customizes room however they desire. Up next I have is the kitchen, follow me. Walking into your kitchen you pass a scullery area just off to the right that houses a full base and plenty of undercounter storage not just for appliances but also other goods and then a wall where you can put your fridge, your ice makers or any other appliances that you'd like to stack on top of another with their relevant plug points. Off to my left you can see a wall of cupboards perfect for dry goods storage and then space for your fridge which is Miele. Another appliance that is Miele is this right here, you're built in avid. Wrapping around however you've got your center island with beautiful lighting just above it again reinforcing that country style Hamptons appearance, Caesar stone countertops, chef's sink and then drawers running the length of this half of the counter space. And then obviously we've seen this over here a behemoth of a stove and oven set that obviously suits the dining room we just saw and you can see that this home is an entertainer's or at least a chef's dream. We've got two, four, six, seven gas burners as well as an electric burner and a black stone grill top right over here, industrial extractor fan above it and then obviously two ovens just down below it. Which really does round off this kitchen. There's obviously frosted gloss display cabinetry and plenty of space for you to move about with another person and assistant or in this case probably your sous chef helping you fill out that dining room area. But that does cover this half of the home. We're going to go back to the entry hall and then move off into the lounge suite, the patio as well as the TV room. So come with me. Through a set of double doors you find yourself in your sitting room. Now this sitting room comes fully equipped with its very own bar. The perfect place for you to serve your guests once they're done in the dining room and possibly need a nightcap before leaving.  Now the wood in the bar top matches another one of my favorite features in this room but let's run through the amenities so far. We see a continuation of that checkerboard ceiling and inbuilt into the ceiling are speakers which allow you to play your favorite music while entertaining your guests across all the rooms. We've got plenty of space here obviously, stackable glass doors leading out onto your patio but also bringing in lots of natural light and then we come to my favorite feature which has to be this right over here. Stunningly framed wooden grated fireplace front and center surrounded by chairs for you to sit down, relax and enjoy not just the sunlight but the beautiful crackling fire over one of your favorite blended scotches. During the winter time I think all of us can empathize with how nice that must sound but in the summertime through this set of stackable glass doors we get to go and enjoy our patio which is where we head at next. And now we finally get to enjoy this home's patio or should I say fully enclosed patio because it's situated in this home like a room with one of the walls removed and replaced with stackable frameless glass. So in the winter time when you want to enclose the room you get almost unobstructed views of your incredible grounds and that pool and in the summertime we get to open it all up, enjoy the warm breeze, the stunning views and being art in the open while still fairly enclosed and protected from the elements. We've got a gas briar with four burners, Caesar stone countertop as some prep area, under counter storage and this patio is divided into two sections. On this side we've got your sitting room area, spot for you to sit down, relax and take in the sights and sounds. And on the other side you've got your dining room area, stunning 10-seater table, plenty of space and as you can see behind me as well as to my left and right we've got sliding stackable glass doors however they're on frameless. Allowing every other room in this house to enjoy that natural light and open them up a bit. Now however we're going just to my right here to your TV room and we're going to see what that has in store for us. Another set of double doors leads you into your sitting room. It's a spacious yet cosy area with access to both patios through their very own doors which means it's light and airy yet cosy due to the way it's placed as well as its size. All of the seating faces a projector screen with the projector hanging just behind you and speakers throughout the room giving you perfect surround sound. Now that all means that this is the only place you should be enjoying a movie with family and friends. We've got some more windows behind me looking out onto your front garden and the greenery it has there. And that does sum up everything we've seen on the ground floor of this incredible 15.9 million rent home. It's now time to head upstairs and take a look at the bedrooms. Come with me. Finally we are on the upstairs landing. Now from this landing we have access to all five bedrooms as well as one bathroom. One of those bedrooms being the master suite. So what we're going to do is we'll start all the way from my left, work off to the master suite saving it for last. So come with me and we take a look at the first bedroom in this 15 million rent house. The first room you come to is a spacious one with double glass doors leading out onto your balcony overlooking those stunning lush green grounds.  This room also comes with its very own bathroom. Freestanding bathtub, shower, double vanity and toilet hidden behind a door for privacy. The room is very, very spacious for the first room we've taken a look at and you'll see this continues in each and every other room. Now however it's off to the next room. Room number two is the first and only room that doesn't have its very own bathroom. This room is serviced by a bathroom just across from the corridor that we'll take a look at next and again does have access to a balcony. You'll see it's spacious, comes with built-in cupboards, stunning wood flooring, high ceilings and gets a lot of light. Just across from room number two is the landing's bathroom and this is the one that room will utilize. You've got another large bathtub, walk-in shower framed with glass, double vanities recessed into Caesar stone, under counter storage and beautiful mirrors and storage on either side of them. However, leaving this bathroom we come up to room number three. Again, that spaciousness really does continue. Speakers built into the ceiling, serviced with this very own air con and of course it does have access to those balconies so you can sit down and relax enjoying your favorite days looking at those grounds. Again, we've got lots of cupboard space, inbuilt drawers and the room itself houses beds, side tables and other accessories with ease. Now it's time for room number four. And here we are in the final room before we come to the master suite and a lot of the features here we've spoken about already. You have built-in cupboards. This time all the cupboards are framed with mirrors opening this room up quite a bit because this whole wall is also framed by a mirror. Access to your balcony out front where you can sit down, relax and enjoy the sunshine. And then as you can see so much space in this room that a bed, side tables, dressing tables and so much more fit in it so comfortably. It makes the room feel cozy, inviting and definitely warm and I can definitely picture a lot of people wanting to sit down, relax and enjoy some nights while it's raining watching their favorite miniseries on TV. Now however, it is that time for us to explore the master suite of this 15.9 million red home. So follow me and let's take a look what it has in store for us. And here we are finally in the master suite and this time this room definitely embodies everything about that term. The first room we walk into in this master suite is your sitting area, space for all the cultures or arrangements you can imagine. We've got a bookcase in the corner and then we've got what I'm sure you've already seen which is absolutely enormous. Yes, you've got under counter storage, you've got an AV cabinet but that screen is so big that even though we've walked across these pocket doors which separate your sitting room from your bedroom you can sit in your bedroom and watch TV even though it is a good 10 to about 15 meters away. You've got a wall of windows and two doors that lead you out onto your outside balcony but inside this bedroom two pedestal tables flank this king-size bed. As you can see these tables are much larger than usual which should denote just how large, comfortable and spacious this bedroom is but it's not the only thing you get within this master suite because around this corner you'll find your walking closet and bathroom and we often take a look at those next. Now your walking closet is all inviting dark wood. Cupboards arranged in a U-shape which easily make this a his and hers affair. You've got a dressing room table in the middle and just behind that dressing room table providing you with all the natural light you might need is a window.  A raised water drop shaped bathtub all on dark tile takes up the center of this master suite. Around that however you've got frosted glass leading in a lot of natural light double vanities placed on dark marble this time and then under counter storage and a back lit mirror. You've got a walking shower framed with glass the feature wall just behind that again more of that dark tile but not one but two shower heads. It's a spacious open and quite warm bathroom because of the underfloor heating which I think was a very nice touch. And now that we've wrapped up this master suite it's time for us to head downstairs let's talk about the grounds, the pool, the tennis court and then speak about how you can become this home's next owner. I've mentioned this a couple of times throughout the tour of this home but the grounds outside are absolutely breath taking. They are lush green and absolutely expansive with everything you'd want from a garden. You've got your pool almost front and centre blue and inviting on those warm summer days and when you'd like to work up a suite you've got fully illuminated tennis courts off at the bottom end of the grounds and if you want to be maybe a little bit more wild and out there there is a trampoline just heading off in the corner behind the palm trees. That however does wrap up the tour of this incredible home so let's talk about how you can become the next owner. Now before we talk about how you can become the next owner of this incredible family home let's recap what we've seen so far. Lush and expansive gardens making you feel like you're living in the Hamptons. You've got a pool, utilitarian and spacious rooms stunning bedrooms and a wealth of other amenities adorn this 15.9 million rent home. If you'd like to become its next owner please contact Jackie and Brendan from Live Realty. Their details are in a link in the description of this video below and I'm sure they'll schedule a viewing at your earliest convenience. Also don't forget to follow us on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram so you never miss out on some of the most fantastic, exclusive or at least interesting homes that South Africa has to offer and you can find your new home on privateproperty.co.za where we list all the homes across South Africa regardless of the price point or area so if you're shopping around make sure you visit privateproperty.co.za Then from myself Chad Rivera, the team at the Private Property Home Shopper Show thank you so much and we'll see you next time every Friday right here. Thank you and goodbye.


Hello, Didier Steven's handler at the Internet Storm Center. At the Internet Storm Center we just received a malicious documenter spreadsheet using Excel for macros with the kind of malicious document that is going around now the Z-loader Maldoc. So I'm going to show you how you can quickly analyze this with the XLMD OpFuSkator tool. So first of all with Oliadump You look at the file and you see there are no VBA macros and that's because when you have Excel for macros They are inside a warbook So to figure those out to find these You have to run my plug-in BIFF with plug-in options X for Excel for macros XLM Like this. Okay, and we get this output here. And so this is clearly a malicious document here with all those concatenations of cars functions and then formulas Here there's a lot of them and to the OpFuSkator there's a new tool XLMD OpFuSkator File case here run it like this And there you have the output. So it was able to de-upfiscate all those formulas with car concatenations and come up with these commands Here you see calls to shell execute. So what we're interested in of course is IOCs like URLs and here we have a couple of URLs So it's as simple as this with this XLMD OpFuSkator And I want just to show you something else with my OliDump plug-in tool So let's go back Now here you can also have CSV or JSON output so if you run this here with XLM option for Excel for macros you see all the different cell formulas and Here this is the past formula which is in in postfix notation But of course you're more used. Well, we we are more used to infix notation and that's what you can get now with CSV output for example like this See here now you see those values set value run and here formula with car and all kinds of commands If you want only the CSV output and nothing else you use option quiet Q like this and Then you get this output And I've also been working on an ad hoc script To try to de-upfiscate this here Like this and then you get partial output. So it's not as good as XLM The obfuscator because XLM the obfuscator is a real emulator here I'm trying to decode with some brute force techniques


I have met refugees, I've met migrants, we have the largest number of them in Greece. Indeed, something that most people don't know is that in 1991 when the Iron Curtain came down, one million refugees came to Greece and stayed and they never left. The result is that we're a stronger and better country. The simple proposition I'm going to put to you is this, treat these people with respect as they are coming into your country. Treat their trauma, treat them as human beings and they will love you forever and they will become the staunchest supporter of the United Kingdom.


I'm really happy to be here with Kaley Larkin. So the reason for this interview is because one of my viewers, maybe you're watching this right now, asked me, George, can you talk about attachment styles and how they relate to business and marketing? And the first person I thought of right away, oh, attachment styles. I know someone who's an expert in that, Kaley Larkin. So that's why we're here.  But I never studied it, and I figured, well, why not ask someone who has been working with a lot of clients with attachment, you know, in this area. So Kaley, welcome to this interview. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this will be enlightening for myself and many others here. Maybe you could start with formally introducing yourself. Sure. Hi, I'm Kaley. So glad to be here. Thank you so much, George, for having me on. And yes, so I am a love and attachment coach. I help people who are struggling with attachment dynamics and their relationships to develop a relationship with more ease and security and deep connection. And so very passionate about what I do and super excited to be talking about it in a different context today with George. So yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Speaking of attachment, I'm right now attached to my bed because I'm bedwritten right now with an infected foot. This is day four. I think it's getting better very gradually. I'm on antibiotics as well. But I am really happy to be here. I'm lucid. I just can't work at my usual desk, so apologies, everyone, for a different than strange background today. All right. Well, it's a testament for how you show up for people that you're here, George. Yeah, thank you. I'm probably a little too attached to making sure I don't cancel on things. Maybe sometimes I should, but I was looking forward to this anyway. Okay. So let's start with the basics. Some people watching this have probably, you know, they know about this, but just review it from your perspective. What are the attachment styles? Great. Okay. So there's four attachment styles and you may hear slightly different names around them, but the names that I'll be using are secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. And these attachment styles, we all have them. So every single one of us has an attachment style. Something that we might talk about is that we actually have more than one. We are a blend and that can come up for people in different ways. But just keep things simple right now. The different attachment styles, which are anxious. So anxious attachment is, it comes from a background where someone, excuse me for a second, I mean, Georgia, we may need to edit this part out. A little bit of a frog in my throat this morning, so we're both a little bit. No, you're good. All right. Go ahead. Okay. So the first style we'll talk about is anxious attachment style. Anxious attachment style develops. These all develop when we're super young and we get this attachment style that develops between us and our primary caregivers. When we're very, very young, some people even say in the womb. And it kind of has to do with the dynamics that happen early on. And these dynamics that happen, they can be back forth, push, pull, how attentive someone is, how consistent they are. These kinds of dynamics develop our attachment system and we carry this into our adult relationships. It's very fascinating. So the anxious attachment style, for example, they didn't get this background of consistency and reliability. So in their adult relationships, they're constantly wanting this feeling of consistency and reliability and they're seeking out, like so often happens in life, right? George, like we're looking for the things we didn't get. So they're trying to get that consistency from their partner that reassurance. They want to know the relationship's okay, everything's okay. They like a lot of external reassurance. They like a lot of external validation that feels really good to them. Now for the avoidant attachment style, they had a different experience. So they may not have felt seen or felt met in a deep emotional way. So perhaps their caregiver was consistent. They came attentively as far as getting them fed and all the things that we need when we're very young. However, they may not have felt that deep connection or they may just not have felt it frequently enough. And so as a result, they learned to kind of give that to themselves. They became very independent, very self-sufficient, and they lean a lot on that self-sufficiency in their adult relationships. So for example, someone with an avoidant attachment, one example that I like to use is say people are going on a vacation together. So say a couple's going on a vacation together and people have different expectations and different feelings about vacations. So for someone who's more anxiously attached, they might be excited about spending time with their partner. They're like, woohoo, this is a chance for us to get to know each other better and get deeper. Maybe our relationship will get closer. And they're feeling a lot of kind of excitement about the closeness about spending time with their partner. For someone who has avoidant attachment style, they're thinking about, OK, let's plan this. Let's figure out what we're going to do. And they're thinking, OK, let's divvy up tasks. Let's make sure that everyone's kind of doing their part. And they kind of take this stance of we each have our own kind of role in this. And so there's a slightly different approach to how people do different activities. This can show up in all kinds of different ways. So for the anxious person, they have a fairly high tolerance for that closeness. For the avoidant person, maybe not so much. They can get a little stressed out when there's too much approach. And as you can imagine, in a vacation scenario where people are going off together and they're spending a lot of time together, that can cause some friction if those two people happen to be in a relationship together. So there's just like a lot of different ways that this can play out. The vacation example is just one small way in the way that these dynamics can play out in the relationships. And then the last style, actually I haven't talked about secure attachment yet. So secure attachment. Secure attachment, people tend to feel fairly flexible in their approach. They're distancing. They're comfortable with hello's and goodbyes. They feel warm and connected in a relationship. They're able to provide support to their partner, help their partner meet their needs. And they're able to advocate for their own needs. So they have a very balanced way of both making sure that they're okay and making sure their partner's okay. Very team-oriented approach to relationship. And then the fourth style, disorganized attachment. Again, these all have different names. And I know they sound a little bit judgy. Just something to keep in mind. I know the disorganized style. The parents didn't teach the kids about spreadsheets. That's probably them. Yeah, we're going to get the spreadsheets. Actually, spreadsheets are related to all of this. Yes, so disorganized. It can show up in that way. And we can talk about that. But it's called disorganized because they can flip-flop between anxious style and avoidant style. And sometimes they go back and forth between the two. Sometimes they lean more on one side. Like they might lean more towards anxious or lean more towards avoidant. And there's also a fear component that's based in trauma. So the disorganized is like they kind of, they're more, yeah, they have multiple styles working with them. Is that right? Yes, that's absolutely right. Yeah. Now, this is amazing.  I'm like, oh, okay. No, no wonder. And we all see ourselves in this. It's totally normal. Yeah. Like I said, everyone has an attachment style and usually blends. What's interesting to me, well, the fact that you work with people, I imagine this means people, once they become conscious of their attachment styles and their relationships, they can start to, is it, reparent themselves or something like that? So that can people, you know, basically transition over to a secure attachment style as an adult? So yeah, that's a great question. And there is a common misconception that attachment style is unchangeable. And the fact is, like you're saying that you can make changes with attachment to shift into a more secure attachment style. People do have different attachment styles in different relationships. So someone could be, you know, anxious with a neighbor, secure with their best friend. They could be, you know, mostly secure in their relationship. Occasionally go into anxious, depending on different circumstances and scenarios. So interesting. Yeah, because I noticed myself being, I guess it would be anxious.  Bunch of guys just don't know how to validate each other. And no, it's not always true, but in this group it is. But yeah, in other groups I'm very comfortable and it all depends. It depends so much on. And so I want to start moving over to talking about business and marketing. And what is, yeah, and you can of course bring up anything else you'd like that you think is important to talk about. But I'm curious, when it comes to like, okay, so there's two scenarios I guess I want to talk about. One is our relationship to clients. And second is our relationship to our quote unquote audience. Sure. And how attachment styles can play into this. So for example, okay, let me, do you have a sense of like, is there, among the popular among the average, whatever that means, average, let's say North American population. Do you work mostly with Americans or? Mostly, yeah. Yeah. So among the people you've worked with, your sense of the North American population, what is there like a prominent prevalence style and yeah, any kind of percentages that you're aware of? Sure. So the research says like around 50% of people are securely attached. But like I said, people are not expected actually. Exactly. It's more than most people would expect when they learn anything about this. And I think it's the reason why that seems odd. It doesn't quite jive with our experience. I mean, for me, it makes sense because I work with lots of people who are coming from an insecure attachment style.  And so, I mean, part of the reason I think is because we don't just have one attachment style. Like we're a blend. So if someone says they're secure, they also have a little bit of anxious, a little bit of avoidant, a little bit of disorganized, probably. Maybe more of some than the other. I describe it like a pizza. You know, a pizza has different toppings. Like you might have a lot of cheese or just a little cheese. Yeah, or a lot of pepperoni. So I think of it like that. I see. OK, so let's talk about our connections with our clients.  Let's say, oh, sorry, 50% secure. And what about the rest of the 50%? Like how many are anxious versus avoidant? Versus avoidant. I don't remember the exact number off the top of my head. I think it's a round balance between anxious and avoidant. Oh, OK. All right. So we could talk about kind of both of these pretty equally. Yeah. What I do remember is the amount of avoidant is actually increasing in the world. The amount of avoidant is going up. Wow. And it also does vary depending on countries. So like countries have higher percentages of avoidant or anxious or disorganized. Yeah, I can imagine that. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, this is kind of broad-based. But I can imagine while I grew up in Taiwan, just the far east, probably more avoidant. I don't know, because a lot less emotions are expressed compared to Americans. And I always think Americans are so expressive. We say, I love you. And it's like, I've never heard my parents say I love you in my life. Like to me, almost never. Yeah, I'm trying to remember back. They're not going to be watching this. But yeah, so thinking about our relationship to our clients and our potential clients, what might anxious or avoidant behave like in a way that's probably not beneficial for their business? Or you can answer the question from the opposite side, is what might a secure attachment style be like as they approach clients and potential clients? Sure. Yeah, so secure is going to, you know how they say, like, how we do one thing in life is how we show up in a lot of other ways? So this is such a great question, because of course it's going to influence how we show up in other ways in our life. And that's one of the misconceptions of attachment. It's like, it only shows up in relationships or romantic relationships. And it doesn't. It shows up everywhere. So what you're asking is about the relationship between like a coach and their client. So for someone who has secure attachment, they tend to show up in their relationships in like a very warm, affirming way. They have good boundaries. They have a good sense of self-worth. So like they're able to kind of maintain those boundaries to give empathy. They're very, they're highly attuned, of course, meaning they can, you know, recognize people's emotions and identify what that means and then respond and adapt accordingly. So all of that is going to play into their interactions with clients. Something that the anxious attachment style, so the strength of the anxious attachment style is they are also very attuned. They tend to be very focused on others due to their fears of abandonment. And so because they're focused on others, that can make them excellent at reading people. It can make them excellent at kind of responding and trying to meet people's needs. Something that they might struggle with is boundaries. So they might be so over-focused on the other person that they lose track of themselves or they might not set good professional boundaries for themselves. So that's one way in which that could play out is, you know, they might neglect themselves in some way. Gosh, that sounds like the vast majority of my audience or something like that. I mean, right? Like, well, it's not just my audience. I feel like that sounds to me like a majority of people who do any kind of personal growth program. I don't know, because I feel like in the past few decades, the idea of self-care and boundaries has become so important to talk about. And to me, that sounds like an anxious attachment style. Doesn't that? Yeah, boundaries also comes up in disorganized attachment. A little bit less in avoidant attachment. We'll get to that in a second. Yeah, yeah, sure. So the, yeah, so that's the anxious style is like they can focus on, yeah, making sure that they're being consistent with their, say they're, oh, we're just not talking about marketing. We're talking about client connections. Oh, no, it's okay. Either way. No, you can bring in marketing at this point, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, being consistent with their marketing attempts, their marketing endeavors, being consistent with their clients, all of that is important. Now for the avoidant style, their strength is they can be very analytical. They can be great. Now they're the guys who are great with spreadsheets. Sorry, I don't mean guys. This can be any gender. Yeah, sure. But they tend to be a little better with those sort of like task-focused, analytical-focused things, just as a generalization. All of this is generalization. And where they can maybe work a little more is around the kind of interpersonal, it might be helpful for them to focus on their empathy building, identifying their clients' feelings and needs and helping their clients identify their feelings and needs. That's where they might be a little stronger. And when it comes to marketing, it would be how, what does their audience feel in need? So connecting with their audience can be helpful. That would be a point where it could be helpful for them to develop. And then for the disorganized style, they can flip-flop back and forth or they can lean more towards avoidant, or lean more towards anxious like I said, they have this fear component. And so, and remember that's based in trauma. So that fear component, it's helpful for them to find ways for them to feel safe. This is a lot of the work that I do in the more romantic side of it. But I can definitely imagine how this can come up for a solopreneur because so much of the work of a solopreneur involves putting ourselves out there, right? It's scary to put ourselves out there for a lot of people. And to be seen and then there's the consistency of creating a consistent message and connecting in an emotional way, you know? And so all of that can kind of play in together. So for the disorganized style, again, there's boundaries, like they wanna work on having really good boundaries. They wanna work on that consistency because they can go from hot, cold, hot, cold. Like they might be very warm one minute and then kind of drawback because that didn't feel so safe. So they drawback and they kind of, yeah, sound familiar. Again, this is like everyone in my audience. Yes. So yes, they might hear that a lot. It kind of makes sense. I mean, you might get fewer people with avoidant attachment style, partly because they do tend to be more solo. I mean, they may join group programs, but they often do tend to work solo. So that does make a lot of sense. Yes. Yeah. That's interesting. And so this is really good. So then let's move a bit into, and then we're gonna complete the interview shortly, but let's move into like, well, what can we do? Yeah, for sure. If we find, if we see ourselves in these patterns of, for example, like you said, hot and cold, not so consistent or we are too, not too empathetic, but we're really overly giving to our audience. Like we're like, oh gosh, I gotta respond. Or reply thoughtfully to every comment, you know? Like, and this is why some people burn out on social media. Like they don't wanna think about social media because they're like, gosh, I have all this overwhelm of people are going to be looking at me and I gotta care about them and da, da, da, da, da. Or like you said, the avoidant style is, I'm gonna say, let's lean into the anxious style because like I said, I think that's probably more of the folks in my audience. People who wanna work on other styles can work with you privately on this, but anxious style, how can they, what are some things they can remember or do to stay more balanced and have better boundaries as they do their online visibility? Yeah, that's really great. So remembering that the anxious style is consciously or unconsciously seeking external validation, they can start to begin to remember their own self-worth and their self-love. And self-love can be a little bit of a struggle for folks with that style, with the anxious style. And so there's lots of practices for self-love. I cover it in my course. There's all kinds of different ways that we can work on our self-love. But that can be very valuable for them and boundaries working on, like you said, like, okay, I don't need to respond to every single comment right now. Like, I can do this at my own pace. Short is nice to be responsive, but making time to do that and not feeling the stress of balancing it out with finding that work-life balance is really helpful for, well, for all of the styles, actually, but for different reasons and different ways. Yeah. That's great. Because, yeah, the sustainability of our business depends a lot on the sustainability of our marketing. Yes, we get some new clients, usually through word of mouth, all of us do.  And so we have to, you know, in my experience, in my, you know, in my observation, the more consistently we show up, the more likely there's a full client load, et cetera. And so yes, let's all work on these practices of self-care, self-love, self-esteem, so that, and boundaries, like you said. Yeah, this is really great. So before I ask you about how people can work with you and the offers, any other advice or insight you wanna share before we start to complete? Sure. So I mean, I could maybe offer your audience one practice that you could do to kind of build that self-love, self-compassion. Yes. We've all struggled, right, around, you know, putting a message out consistently or putting ourselves out consistently or whatever it is. Just being an entrepreneur can be challenging sometimes. And so remembering that failure is feedback and it's temporary. And just having that self-compassion for yourself can be so valuable. And so one thing to do for yourself is to just imagine, like in those times when you've had a hard time, like, or say you're imagining a friend is going through a hard time, how would you, how would you speak to that friend? How would you kind of remind that friend that's okay? And then compare it to, okay, how do you speak to yourself when you have a setback in your business? And then just kind of noticing, okay, what's the difference?   Like the old thought and the new thought, like I'm not getting enough done. Like I think that's a problem for entrepreneurs. It's like, I didn't get enough done today and change that to something like, I'm doing as much as I can and I don't know what a good rewrite for that would be, something like- I'm doing as much as I can and it's important for me to rest. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. I'm doing exactly the right amount and rest is important. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, and each person, like you said, it can be creative with how, and based on their own style or their own personality and their own needs and their own interests can write what. So this is brilliant. This is really, it's so simple, but it's profoundly helpful if we do it. Okay, just we have a few minutes left and I wanna make sure people know how to work with you. And so, two things I want you to talk about. One is your course, okay? And secondly is if people wanna work with you individually, is that available? So start with your course. You mentioned that earlier, yeah. Yeah, great. I have a course called Secure Attachment Rewire and it's a course designed for the anxious attachment style to build in more self-love and good boundaries and self-regulations. Some of the things that we've been talking about today and into their relationships to build a relationship that's what they want. And that is available as a self-paced course. It's a seven module course and has lots of different videos and audio meditations and stuff like that to help you rewire your attachment system for more security and ease in relationships. And then as far as one-on-one coaching, I do that as well, George. Thanks for asking. And that is also available at my website. All of this is at KayleeLarkin.com. You can download my 10 ways to, let's see, what is it called? 10 ways to build secure attachment and a fulfilling relationship. And those are 10 ways that you can kind of incorporate steps into your daily life for more ease and joy and security in your relationships. So all that's available. I know you have a lot of great free resources on your website and on your YouTube channel, et cetera. How does someone know that they're ready to work with you individually as a client? That's a really great question. I think that if they go through the material and they resonate with what they read or if they resonate with what they listen to, then they'll know whether or not it's a good fit. But they can also reach out for a consult if they want to get more clarity. And I do a free 20-minute consult. They're welcome to reach out on my website. And I know you work, tell us about some of the kind of presenting issues or situations that clients come to you for that you really enjoy working through. Yeah, love that question. So I do a lot of work with people who they are, perhaps they've had a string of relationships that have these like familiar patterns of distancing, pursuing, and they're tired of that. And they're really into doing the self-growth to figure out how to change that pattern. And so they want to have relationships where they're not doing that anymore. They want to step into building a new type of relationship, one where they're getting their needs met and expressing their needs in a way that is held and respected and reciprocated and build a more reciprocal relationship. And also to build a better relationship with themselves. Yeah, that's awesome. And I imagine you could do the work of people who want to apply this to their business, their marketing, their connection, their relationship to your audience as well. Yeah, I suppose I could. I mean, I haven't specifically done that before, but I think that it's all related in some way. Yeah, and it starts today now. No. So folks, go ahead and just overwhelm Kaylee with your request for working with her. Yeah, thank you so much, Kaylee. I'm so glad we got to do this and looking forward to more. Thank you so much, George. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you.