and welcome everybody to the Patient Engagement Panel. You've really been hearing a lot about patient engagement all day. I think that's sort of indicative of the role that patient engagement plays. It's part of everything. It's multifactorial, I would even say, multi-tentacled. And we're here to explore that a little bit. We've got people from five different perspectives, five different areas of interest in patient engagement. Henrietta is gonna tell us about the government role of a government representative, assigned to protect the patient interest. Meropy, who will talk in her role as a family member and tell us about some of the solutions that she's thinking of. Angie, with the professional point of view, Sue on global engagement issues and Vanda, last but not least on the family and patient perspective on bedside practices and what we can do about that.  Well, thank you so much for inviting me to speak today. And I found this morning and this afternoon so motivating hearing the experiences but also the real passion of everyone here and it's wonderful to have so many allies. So a patient safety commissioner role, why do we have this in England? And it's come about because patients were harmed and families were harmed and they weren't heard. And groups of patients taking sodium valproate during pregnancy and their children were harmed as a result, women who'd had pelvic mesh surgery for incontinence and organ prolapse and also women who were given hormone pregnancy tests and their children harmed as a consequence. And these patients and their families found each other very much like we were hearing earlier through social media, through being on television and in the press. And their voices together hadn't been listened to individually but when they raised their concerns through their politicians, through the members of parliament, a report was done commissioned in fact by Jeremy Hunt who will be speaking tomorrow. And Baroness Cumberlatch who wrote the review also called First Do No Harm, so there was a great synergy there, made a recommendation that there should be a patient safety commissioner to act as a golden thread in the siloed and disjointed slow and system which really lacked compassion. And that's my role and I started in September last year and I've been listening hard to the views and voices of patients and families about their experiences, about the wide range of different issues around medicines and medical devices. And I've had over 250 different correspondents contacting me on a wide range of issues much wider than the report. And my role is appointed by the government although it's an independent role and I'm accountable to the parliament. And my role is to value and promote the voices of patients and families to ensure that patient safety is promoted and to help the government and the system to listen. And that's no small task, we had over 127 million medication errors in England in a year. But there were also a whole range of other issues to do with understanding who's had which treatment, what medical devices patients have got and there are a whole host of actions that are being taken as a result. But what I've found is that when we work together with the many different patient safety departments and organisations that we can actually start to speak with one voice that we can put patient and family engagement at every stage in the design and delivery of healthcare. That I can work with the commissioners, with the regulators and also with the providers of healthcare to understand how together we can do better. Because I think that if we don't, there's a risk that harm will persist, that the situations that we've heard about today will continue, that the statistics that we had similarly in the USA as in other countries will look back and say why didn't we act? And the people here in the room are the people to act. So I want to say again thank you so much for having me and really keen to continue these conversations for the rest of the conference. Great. Thank you, Henry. May I have a seat? Yes, thank you. Thanks for having me in for listening to Martha's story. It's not the story I wanted for her, that's for sure. I will try not to repeat too much of what you heard this morning, but in case people didn't hear it. You know, my daughter, Martha, she was healthy. She had a bike injury, handlebars went into her stomach. She suffered pancreatic trauma, and at first the NHS worked how you would want it to work. She was helicoptered to a specialized hospital that dealt with pancreatic trauma and we were told many, many times she was gonna be absolutely fine. It was just a question of time. She'd be back at school soon. One doctor, I remember saying, I'm going on holiday because she looked like she was improving. I hope not to see you when I come back. But after four weeks of being in hospital, she got an infection. And at first we weren't worried about that because she'd had an infection before and the antibiotics were given to her and it went away. But with this one, that didn't happen and days passed and she didn't seem to be improving. She had an extremely high temperature and then she started bleeding out of a pick line and tube in her abdomen. And I was quite worried about this, I think. She was as well, my husband was. But we were just told that her clotting abilities were slightly off and it was a normal side of infection and any doctor I've spoken to since then or has read Martha's medical note says that's absolutely not the case that DIC is a really serious sign of sepsis. But we were just told this was normal, a normal infection and the word sepsis was never used with us. Martha seemed to get worse, she was deteriorating. Back holiday weekend was approaching and at that point my husband and I started to worry and put two and two together and actually talked about sepsis ourselves with the doctors who just reassured us that that wasn't the case, that this was normal, infections come and go with this injury. New consultant would come in again and say this is normal. By the Sunday of the bank holiday she couldn't stand, she was dizzy and she got a rash. And a rash really set me on red alert because I'm not a doctor but even I know that a rash with an infection is a really worrying thing. So I stood over her and said I'm worried this is a sepsis rash and the doctor insisted it was a delayed allergic reaction to antibiotic which sounded to me odd and improbable and I kind of questioned it but I also thought well you're the doctor you know what do I know? I talked to a nurse about it, I said I'm worried he's got this wrong. I'm worried it's a sepsis rash, I've been looking out because I started to look it up on the internet and she just said trust the doctors they know what they're doing.  And overnight she just drank crazy amounts of water, the nurse came in, took her OBS which I know were bad and she collapsed at five in the morning. She was finally taken to ICU probably six days I think after. She should have been and we were quite quickly told that she was at risk of death and shortly after that she died. From our perspective, I think the most shocking thing for us is that the whole time we were by her side we asked questions, we felt we were articulate, we were grateful, we were trusting, you know so grateful. We heard other people shouting at doctors and being rude and we would never have done that. You know we felt that in some way that would give probably Martha the best care and it didn't turn out that way. In actual fact we felt we were sort of managed and controlled by not using the word sepsis or not telling us how serious some of these things were because they might have thought that we would have looked up and known that she should have been in ICU and insisted that she get better care. So we were told almost nothing and just repeatedly told this is normal, this is fine until we were told that she was going to die. And just reflecting on some of the things that have been said this morning where people talk about protocols and practices and standards, the key thing I would like to say is that those things were in place at King's College Hospital in London where Martha was being treated. There were at least six opportunities when she should have been transferred to ICU. According to their own guidelines, she was, you know, there was a BPUS chart, BPUS 5, she was meant to be transferred to ICU or a conversation was supposed to, she was at BPUS 8 on Sunday. The nurses had put her at risk, that's another sign that you should be transferred to ICU and the parents were worried. And in actual fact, the parental concern, which is meant to be a trigger to move a child to ICU, the opposite happened. The consultant who wasn't in because it was a holiday weekend and I would like to say holidays, weekends, such an issue, sometimes people try and say it is a huge issue. It was a completely different atmosphere at the weekend and as I say, the consultant was at home and he told the duty doctor not to get a critical care review for Martha because it would only increase my anxiety. So that's the opposite of the hospital's own guidelines. So I think there's an issue when we talk about human factors is what happens when humans override the protocols and guidelines that are in place which happened several times in Martha's case. Yeah. Yes, you're talking about humility and hubris. Angie, go ahead. So thank you, Helen. From the clinician's perspective is I've been a registered nurse for 30 years, over 30 years. 25 of those I've spent as a certified registered nurse and as the test. And I know like many of you, we've been talking about air and patient safety my whole career. And I even look back as when I graduated from Anastasia School was the same year that the Institute of Medicine released to air as human which really did establish the what for us. We know there's a problem, but the part I wanna emphasize is I'm not sure if we would have had that without the advocacy or activism. I'm gonna start using that word now is the activism of patients and families who have been harmed contacting their elected officials and really saying you must do something about this. What came out of that clearly was the Institute of Medicine and National Academies of Medicine. I think AHRQ, IHI, we have patient safety foundations. So we've got the what and we've got the people who are interested. Now the next step is really what do we do with it? And Helen and I have had this conversation is when I moved to South Carolina in 2010 one of the things that we had during my hospital orientation was talking about patient safety. And the thing that they mentioned was the Lewis Blackman Act from 2005. And they talked a lot about how providers need to identify themselves to patients and families. And patient and families rights to just like Maripi was saying to a different level of care or a different provider. So I was indoctrinated in Lewis Blackman my whole career so far down in Charleston. And it wasn't until I was making sure I had my facts together for today that I was going back and looking at the Lewis Blackman Act and what it meant and how it came about and the years of it and realized that I was gonna be sitting here with Lewis's mom. Which I think is amazing. So I contacted her and I said, can I talk about Lewis? So when we teach our students, our nurse anesthesia students about patient safety one of the things we talk about really is that. So I wanna make sure that advocacy and activism are so incredibly important. And I think that is something as healthcare providers that we can influence. I was lucky that I worked in an ICU in Minnesota where the nurses were incredibly empowered. The hierarchy was very small. And what that did is not only was at a level playing field from the least credentialed person to the highest but what it did is it created an ICU environment where nurses empowered patients and families. Patients, I know visiting hours are mentioned. I was an ICU nurse back in the early 90s. We didn't have visiting hours. It was open hours and families were there all the time. And this was in an ICU and we made sure that all patients and families felt empowered and engaged. So the next thing I wanna mention is a few things that I see are barriers from the what to the doing. One of them is and we've heard it a lot so I won't go on it too much is implementation of evidence-based practice. I think nursing has come a long way in their doctoral programs very clearly and that is spelled out is we practice evidence-based and the next thing that they do is gonna lead into my next barrier. I think that we often are working in healthcare systems and quite frankly in regulatory and legislative bodies where we don't have leaders who are prepared to step up and make that change and engage people who work there to implement evidence-based practice and to put patient safety at the top and to break down barriers and limit hierarchy. And then I'm gonna say the third thing that I wanna say and that's gonna lead into everything else is communication. When I take a look at all on the Patient Safety Movement website and from listening to the ladies here who have lost loved ones, communication, gaps and misunderstandings, I think one of the number one things to lead to these egregious errors. So about effective communication is the first thing I'm gonna mention, it's about listening not hearing. Listening involves an active intent, not standing there hearing, but truly listening what that patient and family member are saying. I think that that is something we have got to really help our healthcare providers to do better at. I mentioned a little bit of my ICU about the experience that we were very engaged with families and at that time we were starting to talk about multi-disciplinary rounds and how important it was for every healthcare provider to be on the same page. What I have seen is an incredible change in the last 10 years, not fully implemented. We do it where I work, is the family is involved in the rounding. So we have a multi-disciplinary round where a family member is there and they are hearing what every consultant is saying at the same time and the plan is developed and families are empowered to ask questions. I think that is something that is important. The final thing that I want to mention with communication is living in the anesthesia world, is most of my communication with patients and families is doing pre-op assessment and making sure that my conversation with them and the communication and the listening is non-biased and open and transparent so that patients can share those difficult conversations with me, whether it is their drug use or transgender or non-binary, all those things that are really difficult to talk about, but they know that as an anesthesia provider, I'm there to take the best anesthesia care for them and I need that information in order to do my very best for patients. And then I want to talk a little bit to the AANA, the Association of Operating Room Nurses and the American Society of Perioperative Nurses recently put out a statement on workplace civility. One of the reasons, and I see this in the operating room, I've worked a lot of places, so it isn't just one place, is we see the hierarchy sometimes and the in civility in the operating room has led to errors in the operating room, things that never should happen, wrong site surgery, that if somebody was empowered to stand up and say to the surgeon or to the anesthesiologist or the CRNA or to the nurse, this is the wrong thing to do. We've got to work on that and that is something as healthcare providers, anybody with an interest in patient safety, that's important. What in civility also leads to is problems with provider mental health and that impacts patient safety also. Two things that I think we need to work on a lot and we're working on it with AANA is dealing with patient safety in our rural areas, especially obstetric underrepresented minorities, that's got to be a priority for us in patient safety and our rural communities that don't have access at all to patient care, much less patient care that is not safe. And finally, and I'll put on my anesthesia hat again, and for anybody who's a patient in a room or family, I want to empower you for this, is in anesthesia we are under incredible production pressures, spend less time with patients, get the patient in the operating room, get the surgery started, that what has happened is we've lost that ability of that listening and listening and making sure that patients are truly heard. So for everybody out there who's a patient is if we are moving too fast for you, tell us to stop. That's your right as a patient. It's important for us to know exactly what you need and what we can do for you. You are empowered to tell us that. And finally, the last thing that I want to say is, you made me think about it when you were talking about connectorous and you said he was the only person who'd had it. I'm sitting here going, I saw it myself, is some of the near misses that once we start talking about things, that we really do realize how many of us could have been in your boat is, and I get a little emotional when I think about it too, is I had a near miss with a three month old. I was told my daughter was dehydrated. I knew it, I was a nurse. I was told to put her to bed by the on-call pediatrician. I refused to listen to that. Took her to an ER. We ended up being gone by ambulance to a pediatric hospital that she spent a night in the ICU. If I would not have stood up, the ending would have been different. And what I would say is I am so grateful that I was a healthcare provider and I think about those of you that are not and I knew the right things to say in due because I'd been there and not everybody has those abilities. So it's important that we educate patients and families of that also. So thanks, Helen. Thank you. And Sue. Thank you, Helen. Gosh, so much to say about this topic of patient-family engagement. I mean, I think all, Helen, Rhonda, Merope, and I, I think there were a common thread amongst all of us that we were, our cries for help were ignored and we were not listened to. And I've thought a lot about this. I've had 28 years to think about this and there's just so much we can do about having healthcare workers to listen to us. We can't write a federal policy that you have to listen to your patient. And so that kind of took me and others who have experienced harm, like Helen and others to the next level up where we got involved in policy. We know that there's gonna be this vulnerable moment with patients where they're not listened to. So we have to ramp it up and get more into policy to prevent the harm, getting in triggers and getting in forcing functions and other policies. And that's what we did for Connectorys is we changed the standard of care so all babies are tested because the moms were not listened to and so we ramped it up. And so policy is really important for us all to be involved in. And so that leads me to wanting to talk about what's going on globally with patient-family engagement. And Sir Lam Donaldson, I think in earlier this morning, the WHO's Global Patient Safety Action Plan has been touched on. I believe Nilem Dinger is going to go through that action plan. And it's a remarkable plan that many of us patients read and feel like finally. There is this comprehensive, multi-dimensional, all-stakeholder plan for us to engage as partners to drive change. And Nilem will talk about this, but there are seven different strategic objectives in the WHO's plan. And one of those strategic objectives is patient-family engagement. Now, this is not your traditional, have your patients ask questions, although that's part of it. What they've really done is they've elevated patient-family engagement into the government level, into the healthcare system level, into capacity building. And so they have five strategies that I think we can all learn from and all implement. The first strategy is engage patients, families, and civil society in co-development of policies, programs, strategies, and guidelines. Without our input into these policies, we will not have a patient-centered, safe, equitable healthcare system. We need to be at the table. The second strategy is learn from the experiences of patients and families exposed to unsafe care. I think we have an epidemic of not learning from us. And imagine what our healthcare system would look like if we had multiple mechanisms in place that we could report to that there's surveys that are asking us questions about safety. I know we have our HCAPs, but what if HCAPs had questions about our experience in safety? So we're calling for these kinds of changes. Number three is to build the capacity of patients, families, and leaders in patient groups. And this has been talked about for years, but we simply haven't done it. What if we invested in developing leadership with patients and families and patient groups that we are at all the tables, that we are part of the healthcare sector, there's some papers that refer to us as like the lost continent and the subcontinent that were kind of lost world that were rarely invited to the decision-making table. And so building the capacity of us and others and civil society I think is just, I really admire WHO for highlighting that. The fourth strategy is to establish the principle of practice of openness and transparency. I mean, you've heard this all day today. We've talked about it for 30 years. We haven't accomplished an open honest healthcare system here or probably around the world. And I say we have to absolutely commit to that. And what I mentioned earlier this morning that we have all learned that truth telling is optional and that's unacceptable. And the last strategy of WHO's Global Patient Safety Action Plan for Patient Family Engagement is to empower us with the right kind of information, with reliable information, with action, with information that activates us. With jaundice and with conectoris, we recently went through a revision with the American Academy of Pediatrics and originally the doctors wrote it and I'm all four doctors. I'm married to a doctor so I'm not dissing any doctors. But it was all clinical, talked about the liver and the sluggish uptake of the hepatic uptake and the red blood cells break and the mom said, we don't care about that. We wanna know what do we need to do to take action to prevent harm. So I think we can do a much better job of getting patients and families at the table recreating patient information that speaks to us that motivates us. And finally, I wanna say that Sir Liam and Neil and I think we're bringing up Sir Liam already did patients for patient safety, a global network of patients of which I'm on to you part of and Helen and Melissa who spoke. I think we have several champions in the room but champions are advocates. And there are over 400 champions globally of networks in several countries and I wanna read something that is our North Star and I think it's a message to all of us and it hasn't changed. This was crafted in 2005 by patients from 21 countries all who'd experienced harm from unsafe care and this was under Sir Liam's leadership that we got together in 2005 and it's called the London Declaration because we all met in London. And we really hadn't planned on creating a declaration. Matter of fact, we didn't even know what declarations were at the time but this is our North Star. This is our vision and our promise. And this is patients and we have several in the room. Just for the end of it Sue, I think we wanna have time for Vonda. What's that? I said can you just read part of it? So we will. Part of it. Well why don't we just leave it in the, yeah. Okay. I'll speak fast. So I was gonna read. We patients for patient safety envision a different world in which healthcare errors are not harming people. We are partners in the effort to prevent all avoidable harm in healthcare. Risk and uncertainty are constant companions. So we come together in dialogue participating in care with providers. We unite our strength as advocates for care without harm in the developing as well as the developed world. We are committed to spread the word from person to person, town to town, country to country. There is a right to safe healthcare and we will not let the current culture of air and denial continue. We call for honesty, openness and transparency. We'll make the reduction of healthcare errors a basic human right that preserves life around the world. We patients for patient safety will be the voice for all people but especially those who are now unheard. Together as partners we will collaborate in devising and promoting programs for patient safety and patient empowerment. Developing and driving constructive dialogue with all partners concerned with patient safety. Establishing systems, reporting and dealing with healthcare harm on a worldwide basis and defining best practices and dealing with healthcare harm of all kinds and promoting these practices throughout the world. So in honor of those who have died, those left disabled, our loved ones today and our children yet to be born, we will strive for excellence so that all involved in healthcare are as safe as possible as soon as possible. This is our pledge of partnership. So I hope we can all take that pledge. Thank you, Sue. That went faster than I thought. Okay, Vanda, take us home. Well, I'll say that I was here for not the first year but I think the second year my husband died in 2012 in just 18 days. It will be his the 11th year anniversary. And over these 11 years, I have noticed the narratives change in part because of summits such as this. And there are a few noticings that I think stand out for me that I think would be very helpful for all of us to consider. One is that there is a distinction. I make a strong distinction between implementation and integration. I leave implementation to the systems, the relationship between what we know and the processes and policies that we know need to be put in place and actually implementing those so that they happen. For me, a lot of the work is on the integration. That's the human and culture side of the equation. That is the capacity that we have as human beings in the relationship with each other and those processes and policies and systems that help us give input into the system, that help us receive that input in an active ongoing way. And then most importantly, help us integrate that feedback, that input. And one of the things that I think stands out for me most over these last 11 years, but I will say 10 years just in terms of, it took us a while to even recognize that there was errors as common as they are then is that there's been a strong leaning and bias. And by bias I really mean like, it aligns for me around the purpose, around the motivation. What are we motivated here to do? And the origin stories of healthcare medicine are, the strongest motivations are around that human relationship to our health and our wellbeing. And there has been a shift in awareness. And I have certainly hoped to have been a part of this and I know that my loved ones here in the family of patient safety have helped shift the awareness that the business of healthcare is interrupting and has been a centralized component of the delivery and the motivation of that intention to give wellbeing forward. And I think we need to be honest about that and to unpack it and to not be shy or concerned about raising the hard questions around the ways in which monetarily we also have to be attentive but not in replacement for that human relationship. So I would just leave us with that need and I think call for action as activists, thank you, to really make the discernment between the implementation of AI and technology and all those things that are so critically important and so important policy process and also that need for our human cultural integration to learn how to be with these mistakes because they're going to continue to happen. And our psyches, our egos, our relational aspects with each other really need to know how to integrate this learning because it's really not enough to just simply learn along the way. As Maropi, you pointed out so poignantly and I think was certainly the case with us is that it had been 40 years that there was knowledge around hospital associated venous thromboembolism when my husband died. We knew what to do. We hadn't integrated it at an individual level and so I hope I will leave you with that and thank you for allowing Yogi Raj's experience to continue to inform, to help with the learning but also help with the integration. So we do have time for a few questions. I have one for you, Henrietta from Joe Chiani who says, when you hear about Martha, what do you think should be done to keep this from happening again? So the first thing I was going to say is that there's no doubt that everyone here on the panel and everyone else who's been speaking at the conference today, it's not because of lack of being articulate or asking the right questions, it's not, I agree about patient and family empowerment but I think about it much more from the perspective of those who are delivering care, that leaders need to create the intent to listen and to understand the societal and cultural biases that we have speaking as a doctor but I've also been a patient and I will be a patient in the future. That the words that are used by patients and families do not have the same power and value in the healthcare settings as those used by professionals and there's an undoubted injustice in that. There's an injustice in knowledge, there's an injustice in the patients and families narrative and there's also an injustice in the language because doctors are more likely to believe and understand each other. And we have to take this on board and use this as a reality to then act on that and when I see descriptions of healthcare systems they normally start with governments and with regulators and providers up at the top and patients down at the bottom but we need to change that entirely so that patients and citizens and families are at the top because that's who the governments are accountable to in the first place. I mean, I would say that the most important thing in this is that we are always putting that listening with intent and with a real curiosity to every single word that patients and families are saying and I'm very lucky in my own clinical practice that I had additional training for a year of listening to the patients and families narrative and maintaining that intense curiosity to every single word that is being told to me but even then I'm sure I have my own biases. We jump to try and understand the pattern and the diagnosis and stopping and pausing and listening but then also what is it that's stopping other members of staff from speaking up if they're not content with what they're seeing and my previous role was setting up the speak up process for the healthcare system in England and I know that fear and futility are bound so the more that we're able to have a just culture a learning culture and one that the resources follow the recommendations I think is absolutely key. I'm absolutely appalled from the things that I've heard today and the examples that I've heard and I know that these are just some of many, many tens and hundreds of thousands of examples and what we have to do is take that on board and build it into the way that we educate the way that we commission and train and work as members of teams and I'm sure that the pandemic as much as any other problem that we have with workforce, et cetera is going to act as a barrier so what we have to do is take all of that learning and then dismantle those barriers one by one. Yeah, one of the things that we always say is that it's not patient engagement that's the problem it's provider engagement, the patients are engaged but they're not received. Merripy, we've got about a minute left. I wonder if you could just very high level talk about some of the solutions you're seeing. So after I wrote about what happened to Martha in The Guardian, I was contacted by a lot of people a lot of doctors, a lot of patients who'd had similar experiences. I think that's how you messaged me originally but the, I was contacted by some people in Australia where they have something called Ryan's Rule it's just, it's only in Queensland, Australia, I think where patients can request a clinical review for themselves or for a family member in hospital and they said, you know, if you'd had something like this this could have helped Martha and we have been talking about trying to help Martha and trying to create a similar Martha's Rule in the UK. I would say that the main thing I felt when I was in hospital is totally powerless, had no power, I was not part of the team of people looking after Martha. I think back to that last day when she got the rash and I could, the consultants in the morning were talking to each other and they were whispering outside, outside the room and I remember craning to try and hear what they were saying and I know now that what I should have been doing is saying, sorry, can you tell me what's going on because I need to know as much as you because I'm right here all day and you're gonna be doing other things but at the time it didn't occur to me, I didn't know that that was my right. You know, it's hard to explain if you've never been in hospital before and I should say we'd never been in hospital ever, none, no one in our family, we had no experience of this, we weren't medical families, we didn't know how the system worked, we didn't know that errors like this happen all the time and well, not all the time but you know, enough to worry and so I wish we'd had more power and the numbers of people that saw Martha as she was deteriorating over the course of the week, nobody spoke up, any number of them could, some of the nurses did document they were worried but they didn't speak up, they were all doing what the most senior person was doing which was nothing and I wish that I could have created a critical care review and insisted on it and what I said to Helen was that the idea was this is a metaphorical red button where you could insist that a critical care review happened if you were worried that you or your family member was deteriorating.  Yeah, thank you. Thank you all, I think that's it for our panel. I just, I can't resist a couple of last words which is, you know, this is not just one of the pillars of patient safety, it really is the foundation of patient safety, we're all people and we need to relate to each other and if we can't get this right after trying all these centuries really, we can't do anything, so let's do it.


Hei, gyda'r unig, rwy'n Steve. Rwy'n fyw yw'r bod yn dweud y bwysig yn y blaen fawr. Yn y gallwn arni, rydyn ni, mae'n bwysig. Mae'n bwysig, mae'n fawr. Fel yddech chi'n gwybod yn spennu yn gwybod, mae'n gwybod yn dweud os ymddiol. Felly, byddwch i mi. Mae'n gwybod yn ddwy'n gwybod yn fawr o gyd. Felly, mae angen i'r disgyn Cesennu. Felly, mae'n gwybod i'r disgyn Cesennu. Felly, ydych i gyd. I wan to go through very briefly I have some slides the slides are not meant to be driving things but I'm going to use them as a crutch because I won't be sure otherwise what are we doing today what should we be doing there are some plans and plots going on I'll explain and a little bit more please please we have a gobby dock please take notes put things in there try not to swear too much because it does offend some people but otherwise be open and honest if if people can take notes that will be very helpful we do want to be following up on this a lot later so what are we doing we have debion images in many clouds all of the biggest clouds are using are running thousands and thousands of debion images every day I'm told awesome we want to see lots of debion it's good we have lots of people doing their own thing there's the major cloud platforms all have their own debion images the smaller platforms do the same lots and lots of people are running debion in personal clouds the one thing that worries me slightly and again i'm going to come on to this in a moment is we have a massive amount of variation every image is different it seems there is we're not providing anything official from debion well actually we do we have one official one from debion at the moment um I want to talk through that a little bit more actually just as a show of hands who here is currently using debion in the cloud whoa who's who's again another show of hands who is running an image from somebody else who's running their own image first one so who's running an who's running a standard image provided by somebody about oh half maybe who's making their own images and about half okay that doesn't surprise me um so we have a reasonable reasonable audience here to cover this so what do we think we should be doing um I and a number of other folks think it would be awesome to have official images produced by debion for a number for a whole range of reasons um we could really really do with better supporting our users at the moment um people are not running debion debion they're running um whether it's a google debion image whether it's a microsoft debion image there might not be very much difference in there hopefully there isn't but we're not actually providing for those people directly in any way um a lot of the images out there could well be debion but actually with extra little bundles of joy attached you know whether it's trojans whether or not it's random things that will steal your data could be tracking you or whatever we honestly don't know um we'd like to provide good qa to make sure the images that people get are known to work again if the images people are running that claim to be debion don't work that doesn't reflect well well on us and I have mentioned in very in very small thing trademarks um all of this is relevant we don't want the the the debion name we don't want the trust that we've built with our users to be diluted by problems here what we're not going to do and don't get me wrong this is an majorly important thing we are absolutely not going to come down and stop people trying to use their own images this is free software we want people to do whatever the hell they want with it what we want to do is give an extra service here so what do we think an official image should be I hope none of this is controversial but but please shout if you think i'm doing things wrong if i'm talking about things that are not wanted um we in the images team and trademarks team have come up with some basic guidelines we want official debion images to be produced by debion people on debion machines does that sound good yes meddy can we get a microphone maybe we're going to write the question um do i think that's always possible um i think so can you do that for sure uh yes okay okay great i didn't make that talk today sure um i'll let martin and steve by all means expand on that a little bit later um yes yeah i'm not sure if it's fully possible for amazon cloud you can you can have two types of images one is on s3 one is on ebs on ebs you need to you can only access ebs from other amazon instances so so you need to bootstrap one image from other uh from already existing instance okay so so when we are building images for amazon with bootstrap visit we we run debion instance we attach we attach volume we route their instance up install upgrade blah blah blah then detach and then register this from everything from inside this instance so so we need to somehow bootstrap this week um anybody else on that front point no um what should the content of an official debion image be um to be debion for me it's got to be um everything's got to come from debion it needs to be from main um other people and i've i've seen examples of images like this can add all kinds of extra junk in but still claim it's debion um that that's great for their own use i don't think we should have those in an official image please nobody argue with that um what about uh if specific drivers or so on are required which come let's say from contrib that would be the case for instance for virtual box guest additions or things like that that's a good question what do you think well it's pretty it's a pretty tough question i agree because the thing is that on one hand i mean like it has been for quite a while that basically official debion is main on the other hand we don't i mean providing people with basically you're not working image or not well working image is not nice either yeah it's tough um niel wants to talk as well as is often the case okay i'll stand up so this was an issue in my term as as dpl about what is debion and trademarks and how those are linked because quite a bit of this stuff came out from cloud providers wanting to call something debion um um now i was certainly of the view um that for something to be official debion it must be produced by the project um essentially whatever that means so debion people on debion machines it needs to be produced by the project as a whole and it is very important that official debion is only debion main so nothing on contrib nothing from non-free that that's one of the key things that allows us to be a free software distribution there is then the question of what is based on debion well that's nominative so anything can be based on debion but then there's this wonderful thing in between where you have a cloud provider who adds a kernel module or a patch or in the case of a cloud provider who wants automatic security updates applied so if they change a config file a single line changing no to yes is that now still debion and so finding a way that we can help to allow cloud providers to call things debion because many of them actually want to and we should want them to because then we get the recognition of yes it's debion you can install debion on thousands of devices rather than in some large vendors cases they're basically running debion but haven't called it that they've called it something else because they can't but it's basically just the same so that's a open question and i think a lawyer would say that's a very interesting question we take payment by visa and mastercard and and however low you'd like but but one way around it is potentially for debion cd debion boot team to start help creating these so we can start pushing things towards that and that's exactly where i'm coming to yeah um what we'd like to we have a question from irc uh yeah the question from irc um is uh since images are loaded remotely is it possible to check them after installation um that depends entirely on the on the platform i believe um some of the platforms have their own tracking of checksums and whatever so you can validate exactly what you've got um it depends um it's one of the things again we want we want to try and make sure of um yeah and and the follow-up detail is uh therefore how do i know i'm getting an official debion installation that's a very good question so the second part of the contents thing is um what do we provide um do we provide a standalone stable image which is great and we can track and it just has just those things in do we provide something with some backports included if so what presumably kernels i've spoken to guys who would like to see a backport kernel would see backports of the various cloud platform tools included and that's all perfectly understandable we need to be absolutely very clear as to what changes are made in images and exactly what is provided that's i think the most important thing we have here yes sam sir i think the other really big elephant in the room is what do you do about configuration like do you provide something like cloud in it or something that you know i an official debion image that doesn't have something like cloud in it and it would be of absolute use to listen us to me yep um coming up in in a very very short moment yeah yeah no that's fine um we also have the question of do we have images with cloud included and i think the clear consensus for official images clearly we should i do people here know what cloud in it is if anybody doesn't does anybody not know what cloud in it is luca okay so cloud in it is a is a service that runs very early at boot so it can go and do the appropriate setup for your cloud platform so it can go and run the platform specific bits that you want as part of your boot process that's basically it so does what i'm going to do any of the cloud do any of the platforms need contrable non free bits um to be run from cloud in it um i'd apparently yes they do um i would hope it's minimal obviously we're not going to put those things in in the official images so i i gave up on trying to get debion onto rack space because there is an agent you need that is problematic great i tried that as well there's an agent specific from rack space because they run on zen api and then that's only for their public cloud though and the api needs an agent in in the machine okay so you know where more than i know i tried i was about to say i tried to package this agent it's not easy to do so okay it's not even easy to get a copy of the agent um the like i mean you know the they have this magic installer that runs on their images that grabs a copy of the agent and then deletes the package which um is good because if you actually take a look at the package it's so embarrassingly bad that it's kind of good that it's deleted but um it's um it is rather unfortunate the open stack even on zen has a mechanism called config drive that is entirely supported by cloud in it that would work fine um they just don't use it great i think jimmy has a question a comment at the back yeah so um as so i used to be at the at google working on their devian images and they don't have anything non-free in the guest it's entirely the fsg free but sometimes the development pace moves a little faster than um than main so we so there's no need for contributor non-free for that case but it's possible we may want to see to what extent backwards and or stable release updates could make sense during the lifetime of devian release sure ana from from speaking to guys at google guys from microsoft it's yeah they've all got similar issues about that say for example kernel drivers which are improving all the time and they want better performance or new features that are only available in the new kernels you know all those things ooh a little bit of hell um i'm leaning towards we should definitely have an official image that contains only main only stable that people can use we should also have an official image that includes small bits of backports that are that are tightly controlled um i'm tempted to call it um feel free to shout at me if you think you have a better name something like a say a jessey refresh or something which has those pieces in which will give people maybe a better experience but they will need to be aware it's not just running stable so in in that sense right um since we're discussing about what you can call devian i mean i call my laptop running devian when i have backports right and it's not demian stable if you want but i think it's fair to say jessey plus backports or whatever you want to call it and just maybe maybe stable at some point will be deprecated and not runnable on some platforms if you don't want to provide even kernels or stuff like that's that's unavoidable but if someone can install like the jessey plus back for version or stable plus i think they're going to be fine and it's still debian right it's backports are provided by devian developers so yeah i think we have broad consensus that that's reasonable yeah so if i understood if i understand correctly basically jessey refresh for instance would be basically a pure blend with some config telling it to please fetch sus bits from backport or yeah okay and then would it be then like on a uh would it be different depending on the cloud provider if it requires special bits to support it or um i'd like to not be producing multiple official images one per provider because how many providers are there um so again we're kind of evolving this i'd personally like to see maybe two three a very a very small number of possible images we should have a minimal stable only we should possibly have a stable plus backports whether we however we call that which would just be a minimal set of updates and we might provide a bigger richer image which could have a bunch of other things yet to be defined hand wave hand wave and we'll work out the exact details of that in the weeks and months to come i think does that sound sensible i think you need a per cloud image unfortunately um if for no other reason than cloud in it kind of really performs a lot better if you tell it which data sources to enable there are a couple of data sources that can introduce minutes of boot delay if you leave them enabled and um it's i've always found that i needed to at least can customize that per cloud provider if nothing else possibly my take on that would be we should provide a basic core image which it which doesn't it is not customized per platform and by all means encourage the platform providers to make that kind of change to their images they're not going to be official debian images necessarily at that point but they're still debian we're happy for that for them to call it debian does that sound reasonable no i think you want it to be possible for them to have official images on the cloud providers i mean that's that's my opinion at least okay i can give a concrete example if you enable the ec2 type of image of uh data source for cloud in it then it's going to slow down everyone else by 1 minute 30 so that's that's problematic okay is this something we consult by having the debian installer be precedible to disable enable some of these oh we're not using the install at this point i think that you know that's that's half the point these are going to be complete images that you boot directly okay so thank you for the information that that that helps um we've had other people asking should image it or how should we handle security updates so what we should be doing and i appreciate i'm i'm being quite remiss so far with this with the open stack images we should be regenerating images at the moment we get security updates to anything that's included in them um that's something that we can and will do it's just a case of doing the work we'll get to that um what do we do about security in images that are currently running so a number of people um i'm told on the platform um on the on the cloud platforms themselves would like unattended upgrades installed um by default on the images so that they don't have to worry about um running potentially no insecure software however there's tension here again of course a lot of their users don't want make you know if they have a long running instance don't want their database server to be restarted potentially without warning this is a hard question you know a hard thing to decide so meddy isn't that a wider question because uh we will have the same need on workstations on servers so it's not specific to cloud images sure absolutely um that is a very much a wider question it's something that we might want to be thinking about in this specific area right you know right here right now because of the problems which want to solve sam so regenerating the image doesn't work that great either um so at least on a lot of cloud platforms i mean opensack to some extent ec2 to a very great extent um i'm going to hard code image id's in script and deploy scripts and stuff and i probably really want the image to do a full upgrade on first boot if nothing else right so again and this comes down to you want that i'm told some people don't um how do we um how do we have that add support for both sets of users i mean that you can do with cloud in it can you think yeah it takes a question about the conference sure right um so what so when i was at google we had the similar discussion about unattended upgrades and uh i believe that for the official images we deferred to debian's preferences in this regard or what google considered official i should say but um some other clouds i think the answer depend the eventual answer depended on which distro and what all the factors were there but i think the default so you write it maybe that it is a broader question across more than just the cloud context i also think the answer might even depend on which context if you're on a physical server in africa with you know unreliable and slow and internet you don't want unattended upgrades if you're even in a physical data center not just clouds with flaky services that can't be restarted in a good order you do want uh to not restart things automatically but maybe you could do that with policy rc.d for example uh this is really a discussion that could be broad throughout debian in time for a stretch or buster but uh i as steve points out it's this question and the question of update on first boot are prompted by cloud and they'll apply more context so we need to make it a broader conversation if i'm not mistaking attended upgrade just a grade that the fix in time in the week right so what happens if you have 1000 vms deployed in your cloud and they all try to update at the same time so before installing it we might want to address that problem first yeah oh apologies if it sounds like i'm asking more questions and giving answers here that's kind of what i expected um we have a lot of discussions to go through yet um i'm talking about giving different variants of images um that seems to be a a reasonably agreed point um one of the things that we really want to do with our official it with our official images which is something that again we haven't had much of yet is good qa um we want to get automation in place so that when we produce an image we know it's good at the moment some of the images we produce we we might know it boots that's about as far as it goes um debian is normally known for being good stable solid and and well tested that there's a really big potential hole here that we need we need to fix so um we've started making plans so i mailed the cloud list quite a while ago after prompting from martin suggesting a timeline on on how we should go about this um we haven't really followed that timeline it we we were suggesting that we would try and get some official images building on our central image building box um this week um none of that's happened yet um we were talking about agreeing the test requirements for maybe september we've not had any discussion yet please let's get discussing we want to get some real images going through that testing by october november well we're not even remotely in a state to start that yet let's get going um i have been swapping quite a lot of email with zach mirano at google who you know jimmy tells me you know is a what replacement colleague something yeah um about a lot of these issues and that's what's prompted some of the some of what i'm talking about here he's not the only one don't worry we you know we want to make this work for everybody however would what he has suggested is that google would love to host a sprint um in seattle which seems to make most sense as a location for a cloud sprint as google microsoft and amazon the three biggest cloud providers are all based in seattle um and they're more than happy to host um so i'm going to be proposing that we well i'm going to be helping him to try and organize something dates to be decided sometime later this year um plis if you'd like to to go to such a thing we're going to be discussing it on the cloud list it's not just going to be for the three big cloud providers we want everybody with an interest here to turn up um and we want to get people working together to make things better here so whether that whether that is for your own personal cloud stuff whether that's for the the big service that's running millions of images a day we want everybody's input to make official demian images work well and to make and to make even what we think we don't classical official we want to make those images work well work well too um plis let's get going on that so do we have any more comments i said we've gone through the slides i said i'm not trying to drive all this totally this is for conversation from you guys bill mike i was wondering if if you wanted to do anything about the non-official images if you know if you're going to use the word debian do you need to document what's what's not standard what's you know um any changes that sort of thing or you know i presume trademark policy already covers some of this but do we want to be a little bit more formal about it or that we probably need to set a standard which was the idea of having this buff and coming out maybe with some sort of standard how an official debian image might look like and then we may talk about what's official and what's unofficial but yeah absolutely we want to go that way um for the protection of users and the protection of debian we want to make sure as a minimum people should be documenting what they're doing um the best people are already doing that the dodgy people clearly aren't going to be in that regard would it make sense for instance to recommend that uh i'm going to pick a random example but recommend that cloud provider builds um image using let's say bootstrap visit and makes a manifest available so then people can actually say okay this is actually a debian blend and this is what they have done in terms of package install and configuration that's exactly the kind of thing which it's actually executable documentation yeah the next thing that part of the discussion that we've been having over the last couple of years as well is about the exact tooling to make images i don't necessarily want to have that argument again today yeah that's why i said it's just an example sure but definitely definitely we should be getting that level of detail from people to know what tool they used exactly how they built this none of this should be hard for people you know if you're going to be doing a good job of providing cloud images they need to be reproducible they need to be verifiable we need to know what what's happened and that will solve a lot of the issues uh i think we should make sure that the official images are built all from a single source tree so that when you have a modified image you can point people to your modified git tree with all the patches you apply on top of the official ones instead of having stuff spread around random places built to build images possibly yes again it gets difficult if people are using different tools um and it we do have a lot of flexibility in this area whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing well that is potentially a religious war any more comments yes sam one second sir i you know i i said this on the list but i still believe it the this is an area where the plethora of tools is not serving at least me as a user and and other users i've talked to well i think this is an area where this is probably the wrong forum but having a little bit of burning at the stake of one of the tools might actually serve the community and i say that as someone as an outsider who's not been involved in any of these right because i'm saying as a user this is actually kind of a bit of a problem sure so Riku hosted a session at debcov last year enumerating the different image generating tools we have in debion he got into double figures um yeah it's it is really bad um so everyone has started off scratching their own itch and of course we all understand that that's part of what we do in debion but over time we should come up with better answers and tools that can that can work and do what everybody needs is a good plan i'm not going to argue with that the slightest yes there is an xkcd cartoon about this we know um i mean we could get to the stage where we're not going to recognise things as official unless they're using the tool that we bless again i don't want to have the have the fight right here right now as to which tool we bless that's actually something that i think would be well served doing it at a sprint where people can actually demonstrate their tools and say here's why my tool is better than yours oh actually your tool does exactly what mine does but in a slightly different way maybe i could just change its config and it would do it would do what i need that's the kind of thing i'd like to get to but it's not going to happen in this room today what what i like what i would like to see either here or in the next weeks is that we come up with some sort of minimal policy how an image should look like um that we are that we can at least for a stretch then use that policy to say these images meeting this policy we are going to be calling to uh the official stretch and as a sure and that that's the the last thing i want i wanted to get to today was we've started discussing things around that policy we haven't set it in stone yet um most of what i've suggested today i think is reasonable i've not heard many arguments there are tweaks another topic which i would like we have a discussion with about is about the package list that we put in that image for example i've put a glue screen just i think because it's convenient some others may argue that teamwork is better or something like that so i'm not strongly opinionated about it and the the more input we have the better it is sure that's the kind of place i i wish we had some discussion like that on the cloud list but i've not really seen any even those being discussed much let alone agreed i recently i don't know who who follows demian cloud list i recently recently had an argument with um vagrant the the guys doing the vagrant images about the amount of additional softwares they are having in their images i would actually like to see official the minimal official images just doing the minimal installation like the base installation we do based on the debian installer so right now the vagrant images they include only the base system so it's it's essential plus standard and the virtual box variant has needs the crap that you need to run properly on virtual box but the libvert and the lxc wants them we had like half of the kde and gnome libraries in the vagrant images because of some library dependencies are they being pulled in with recommends yeah no that's a bug in uh pine entry which depends on pine entry gtk or pine entry curses so yeah we work around with that okay that's fixed so right any more comments so yes i agree it should be uh as minimum as possible but though it's uh the role of a distribution to choose some tools still somehow it's like when you show gnome then you have i don't know a g edit installed together is there some small tools that we consider good enough and small enough to fit in an image like i don't know a vim rather than just vi or i would actually argue against that in the cloud you want your images to be absolutely tiny you don't want anything installed by default and everyone uses tools whether it's Ansible or puppet or shelf to install whatever they need so the the the stock image should be tiny okay but like uh would you consider one percent increase in the size of the image uh important or like even the last percent you don't want to text editor you don't want new screen or nothing okay some other people have other ideas so the argument against that is a lot of people wanting docker or wanting images and looking at things like alpine linux it's much smaller than even the smallest debion install size absolutely matters here yeah my additional was just it's a matter of policy so the position is uh quite clear and doesn't give uh give a feeling for more people to add more tools to the stock image at some point we have to decide what's in the image and i mean not on the based on some tools specific tools just to give you an idea of figures like the current image the minimum you could have is like 400 megs at least okay so does one make makes a difference so uh i i think that if people want to have non-minimal images they can totally do that either by having building tools that that support stacking of images or you just build your own image which includes your favorite editor and screen or t-max and whatever random other things you want but the kind of base minimal image should just be exactly that it shouldn't include all the nifty tools because i know that if i were to do that i mean my selection of nifty tools would be different to your selection and then suddenly your image is at 3.5 gigs yeah it's a lot of this is personal choice and actually you pay per megabyte or gigabyte for the image you use so i i don't think the image i think the image size is a bit of red herring to some extent um what i think is more important and is an easier policy to to use to decide this is looking at the security footprint and looking at what's there i i want something to be minimal not necessarily because i'm hugely concerned about the per gigabyte cost whether that can become an issue with enough instances but much sooner the overall system complexity becomes an image and i don't want parts running around that i don't need um i will say that there's a i want to you know make sure people are aware of the flip side is that this does mean that someone's um that you are probably going to see people who who have a lot of us the same type of an instance um you know cloning images and stacking some stuff on them and and basically saving that as its own image um but all the cloud providers make it pretty easy to do that because it's a common task yeah lot in again just a stupid question dsa is running sir their own um images cloud images as well on the ghaneti installation so are we going to tell uh to call them also official debian images based on the um installation procedure how we can currently build those images that's up to you guys so we need to register them with the cloud team as well maybe so i think we've got some consensus um what i'm going to do because we're getting white to the end of this at the time we've got now no i'm being now i'm being corrected by the video team um i am going to say anyway i will do my usual thing that i do with any sessions i run i will be waiting up a summary of what of what was said here um and it will go to the cloud list and whatever please pick holes in what's in there i am fallible but i'm hoping to try and provide a good summary so everybody is aware whether they were here or not um the next steps are we should should try and organise the sprint that i've mentioned um i'm hoping the dpl will approve a nice big sprint so we get lots of good stuff i'm getting nodding good um and we will try and thrash out um the rules for what we consider to be official images in the coming weeks obviously as we're getting towards the freeze we can't let that go on too long and for the people who are producing images this is really really important they want to have clear rules that they can follow um so please join in on the cloud list and let's let's let's get that sorted out do we have any more comments or questions from out from outside the room uh yes there is uh the comment is the minimal deviant image should be about what is required to run out to get and i suspect the implication is um that works for me ssh uh yes what we want to let people get in as well true i think most people would agree it's about the one extra package you do want installed on your image by default i'm okay with that yeah i would actually say as long as you have a way on whatever platform you're using you don't want ssh installed by default because whoever actually wants it can use it and install it everybody who doesn't want it has a hard time removing it if it's in the default image no it's easy to remove and that said very few of the cloud providers unlike say some of the virtual private server providers but in the public cloud providers very few of them have a good interactive uh console way of getting in especially in an automated fashion so uh unless you customize the image first of course to reply to i already forgot who said that it's actually pretty hard to remove ssh well you basically can put some configuration in cloud in it to uninstall it on the very first boot okay it will have started for a very short time the very first phase yeah so um i think that if you do it in the there are two phases of cloud in it and i think the first phase will run before ssh starts and you can i believe you can run a command in that phase that would remove it um am i wrong i heard a no but um i think it is possible to remove it before it starts actually when we actually like network access inside the image probably some sort of so it might depend on whether we go with a single image versus a cloud based per cloud that might be the first thing to decide because there are you know i think there should be a way to leave it open so if there's a good business case that we can add a package if it really does help the user for that particular cloud and i'm speaking as a guy who usually gets the on-call things and stay up all night trying to solve problems and images so you know it usually comes to us and you know some sev too because they did something stupid that we didn't expect and we could make all these sev twos go away forever if we just had that one last saying or did that one will tweak that it would be benefit everybody yeah we're not looking things down today yeah just to say on the topic of the content of the image uh do we have the consensus that what is put in by the debilist other by default should also be the default in the image for example i switch from cistlin wait for example i switch from cistlinx to grub because a lot of people told me this is grub that everybody uses and that is installed by default and is that is that really relevant is that the reason why you should use grub and not cistlinx i think the reason that group works out of the box on most platforms and cistlinx somebody sometimes it doesn't work for the back the main reason to switch to grub is because the integration with cistlinx is incomplete when you install a new kernel it doesn't register itself no no i don't know okay but the original report said that it's because another argument to pick tools that are basically what dibion installer install is also that if you call your image dibion you might want not to surprise users too much i guess and i mean if we are talking about things that are not installed or not installing things let's say saying okay we don't want to have packages that have priority standards or not all of them that might be one thing but saying okay we want a different bootloader is kind of complete in my opinion kind of problematic because then we are telling all dibion users oh actually if you use dibion on the cloud then you have to learn that we do it differently there and it's not very nice okay then then in such case you want nano editor to be installed by default in the cloud image because that's you would surprise a user because then who is there by default nobody this is something can go on and on i mean i said potential flame would we would be agree with something being called official if it was using cistlinx instead of system d so yeah okay so i think that we should have two i think that the policy for what it takes to be official uh or for what it takes for something to be called official can be different from what we choose to produce and i think that there really is very little that should be in the whether it can be called official beyond what you had on your slides that you know produced on debion machines by debion people um from debion main um i'm not sure and i think those are the primary things for whether it's official and i'd say that we want to call as much official that meets those requirements as we can the second the um the question of which images we choose to produce i think is a lot more narrow agreed i think we should try to make a good tool that that the users can easily create their own image with all the package they want to have or do not want to have in it and i think it's not that important to discuss what are the official images i think for me an official cloud image would be if i just want to give it a try for the first time to make a cloud installation or to start a debion thing in the cloud but if i want to deploy debion on like hundreds or thousands of machines i would expect that there's a senior admin that knows what he wants to have in this image and then we need a very good tool to create this image there's a good call both ways i think we're just running out of time so i'll respond to that that absolutely there need to be good tools and i believe a lot of platform folks already have tools so do we um the argument for the official images is that those are a very good base for the people who frankly don't care who don't know that much they just want to take an image that they know will work and will have a guaranteed stable reliable set of you know setup that's what the official images are for and obviously you as a dd you know so much about the system you know you absolutely will want to tell your images we fully expect that it's quite startling though to see the percentage of people who won't they just want a bog standard image that will work and it's those people who we really want to try and support with the official images exactly it's a trusted place that where people can start with that yeah we're out of time thank you everybody for turning up and i will thank you in advance i'm presuming please turn up on the cloud list as we discuss this further this is just another start to try and get this properly worked out as i said i'll be sending out a summary please keep involved in the conversation that's the important thing thank you for coming


Good evening and thank you for joining us. My name is Brianna Juarez. I'm a third grade math teacher in San Antonio ISD. I also serve on the regional strategy team for San Antonio Rising and Solidarity for Equity, or SA RIDE. SA RIDE is a community organizing group that works to build power for educational equity in San Antonio through meaningful dialogue, relationships, and collective action. Throughout the past year, we have been working with our community, our teachers, the chief of police, Chief Corriez, and the San Antonio Alliance to bring full transparency to the community about how SA ISD PD will conduct itself under SB 4. Today, we're celebrating this collaboration's efforts to support all students, including those that are undocumented. With collaborations like these, between committed organizations and district leaders, we hope to further push and strengthen SA ISD's commitments made in the resolution passed on February of 2017. That states, among other things, the district will ensure students and guardians are directed to all available resources for assistance in understanding and exercising their rights under applicable laws. Following through with this commitment with the production of the Police and Community Handbook is an important first step in building and maintaining community trust. There's still so much work to be done for the educational equity that our students deserve. SA RISE is not stopping here. We have district leaders and community members who will share a bit more about what this means for our district. Please join me in welcoming SA ISD Board of Trustees President, Patty Radall. Thank you very much, Bree. Well, first of all, we thank the media for showing up and being here with us. We thank the other judges that are supporting and so concerned about this issue. This is a very important issue to SA ISD and we wanna thank SA RISE for appreciating with the collaboration to address this and come up with a strong booklet. We thank our own chief for working with SA RISE and developing that booklet. This is a very important issue to us and out of everything that's in that booklet, I think the thing we want people to hear so much is that SB 4 does not apply to school districts and our chief has the ability to be able to tell his officers not to ask the status of immigration or citizenship and he will and he does. And so that's very important for our families to understand that it is not the same relationship as it is with the San Antonio Police Department. School districts do not fall under SB 4 and we are grateful for the spirit of our own chief, the spirit of the community leaders who know that this is such an important issue. Muchas gracias SA RISE for to follow and as a student. Muchas gracias para tu atención a nuestros familia y nuestros estudiantes con estas familias y nuestros estudiantes. And I want to go ahead and am I introducing you, Pedro? So I am also so grateful that we have a superintendent who has experienced the challenges of immigration and knows what the challenges of immigration can do to our families, understands the whole culture that comes to our families of fear when they are already running from fear in many of them and to be in such a situation where our life can get worse if we don't have protections that keep our children on track for their educational opportunity. So superintendent Martinez. Good afternoon everyone. And so first of all, somebody born in Mexico that came to this country when I was turning six years old. I know firsthand the challenges that our movement family space and one of the things that I'm very proud of is not only our board who has taken leadership on this issue but also our chief and it is just the beginning. I mean, I think we want to be clear with that. But first of all, we are open to learning. We're open to, you know, this is not our expertise. In fact, I will say right now, we want the help. We want experts to be able to come. Our goal is to open up our buildings and to ensure that parents have feel that not only that their children are safe but that they're safe and that they can be knowledge about how to address these very challenging issues. I will say this, we're not in a very friendly state when it comes to immigrants. And I think it's very sad. I'm hopeful we're time that that might change but the reality right now it is not, it is not a friendly state toward immigrants. And so for us, I want our district to take a leadership role. But I will tell you the one thing that I also would ask the community is is not only look at this issue around immigration rights and what's happening with ICE and all those activities. I also want you to want us to be looking at the bigger picture of making sure these children get an education. So whenever I talk to any of our students that are in this situation, the first thing I let them know is that you have to graduate from high school and you have to go to college because no matter what happened, whether you're not a big proponent of getting a fix for DACA, I think it's shameful that that hasn't been addressed but what we can and my wife and I, we both personally contribute to different organizations that are helping DACA students. We do that in our own personal life. We need to make sure that our students know that they cannot give up. My biggest fear besides what's happening with ICE and other activities is that many of our children, they lose hope. I'll give you an example. So we have students right now that are not sure whether to fill out financial aid force. Last year we had a record note before the election of record number of students that were filling out alternative financial aid forms as part of DACA. Now they're worried. And so we're having our counselors put on an event specifically for students that, and we open that to everybody but it's sort of our dreamer event around having children, have the information that there's universities that will give full right scholarships. There are local institutions now that can help our children. And so the one thing I ask of the community is help us to ensure these children do not lose any hope because regardless of what happens with immigration laws, if they had graduated from high school, if they go to college, nobody can take that away from them. So again, I want to thank our board president and I'm going to ask the chief girl not to come up. He is an amazing leader. He's been in our district I think just a little bit over a year now. He has completely changed the culture of our police department. One of the things I asked of him is I wanted our police department to be seen as individuals that were not only role model for our children, that were protectors of our children's safety. And I think this work, which is just the beginning, is also a step in the right direction to know that, I want them to see our police department as being on their side, not having to fear for them for what could happen with current immigration issues. Good afternoon. First of all, I'd like to thank SA Wright. I personally thank you for your leadership and anyone else who contributed to this handbook, like the superintendent stated, it is the first step of going forward in a positive manner and we are open to any other input that anyone else may have to improve this handbook. I really appreciate the compassion that SA Wright and others have in humanity. And I really, really am compassionate about it and their hard work in regards to mean the voice for others. Others who can't or don't have that voice and mainly being the voice for and doing the right thing for the common good of our immigration families that we have. I really do, I am very compassionate of what we do with police. Here's our philosophy real quick, like so everyone can know, we're here to shine a positive light on everyone we come in contact with. Now we would treat everyone with respect, with dignity, with protection and most importantly as a human being and not based on what they look like or what they wear. That is our philosophy. And we wanna be that shiny light and that resource that anyone can come to us and speak to us without the fear of being deported. You know, our immigrant families here play a big role in our community itself. Again and once again, we like to be that resource for them when they're in need. And I encourage everyone to ask the question because I keep on asking me the same question is what are we doing or what can we do for the non-documenting people to make their lives better and hopefully get documented? What are we actually doing? We as police, I assure you, are doing our best to maintain a safe and secure environment for all. For all. And I name you with, you see something, say something. Thank you. The speaker is an SISD graduate, Maria Rocha. Together today, we have to remind ourselves how far we have come as a district, as a community and as a city. My educational years at SISD include attending Wilson Elementary, one year middle school and graduate from Edison High School in 2005. Yes, I recall derocatory terms used towards me and others, words like wetback, mojado and illegal. Aside from the negative, I also recall the positive and the immense support from teachers, counselors and administrators who made me feel safe. Same thing is a key element. We must provide our students on a daily basis. How can one function fearful? Fear about themselves, but most importantly, will I go home to my family today? That was a question I often ask myself, will I be able to go home to my parents knowing that they drive without a state-issued ID even up to this day? The work you as allies and advocates started with the urgency of now. The work of SARISE initiated with past and present educators doing exactly what they stand for, San Antonians, rising in solidarity for equity, especially under our current political climate. The handle brought forth a sense of security our undocumented students deserve. We need to be insured and promised that our staff members are well-equipped and trained to take action. This includes mandatory trainings and information about the opportunity to furthering their education our most vulnerable students have in our state of Texas. I am a living product of that. I graduated with my bachelor's in 2012 from UTSA and I'm currently pursuing my master's degree in educational leadership. I am fortunate to have obtained DACA, but not everyone was able to obtain such a privilege due to certain requirements or simply because they feared applying. Our victory speaks for many, even at this first step. Let us all continue to advocate for all students and prove to them que sí se puede. Sabemos que este paso es el primer paso de muchos que están por venir. Nuestra comunidad se merece esto y más sabiendo el temor que nos enfrentamos día a día. Gracias a SARISE, al distrito y a nuestra comunidad por reconocer esta gran necesidad y este gran triunfo. Gracias. Y Teacher Gerardo Villegas. Good afternoon. My name is Gerardo Villegas. I have a product by SAISE as well. I'm an immigrant and I'm currently a teacher in this district. So I've been proud of this district proudly since 2001 when I came to the United States in a role that helps in elementary until I graduated from Fox Tech High School in 2012. SAISE, as far as I can remember, was my home safe haven throughout those years. It is where I feel welcome and continue to be inspired every single day by my own students today. The conversation that we are having today is extremely important because we service that community whether we wanna admit it or not and this community has come under fire by many policies not just as before but federal policies that are gonna have even further effects down the line. So it's going to take for us through our own devices to champion the students and families in our immigrant community. So I think of like myself, even though I feel like I have some kind of power within just having some kind of an education and being in the classroom and being a role model to my students. I now have that responsibility through my own device to speak and that's why I'm here today. Immigrants are at the heart of some of our most precious schools and that is like completely a fact. Immigrants, they, oh, I'm sorry. There, I'm happy that these guidelines are being set and I challenge you guys to continue to do more. I can attest to how the advocacy of my teachers and the schools attribute to the success of students like myself. Your words, your actions and inactions have so much power and I'll forever feel committed to this district. Here is where countless of teachers advocated for me, no in my own situation and I was pushed to seek opportunities beyond what limits us as immigrants because of them I stand here today and teach you math. So I'm, I'm very proud of this, I speak of everything that I'm doing to protect this community of immigrants. I hope that this will be the beginning of what we're going to do and what we're going to say. As a teacher, I, in this district, I feel the responsibility to be a liberator of the voices of my students and the first thing that I do as a teacher is to look for ways that my students feel good in my class and this is one of the ways that I can do it. I'm Essay Rice, Regional Strategy Team member, Mary Hokea. Thank you for joining us today. I'm going to start by saying thank you for all of the work that you've done throughout the work that you remind us of the importance of continuing to develop trust between district police and the community. Thank you to SAISD for the commitment to all students and families. This work does not end here. Supporting all students in SAISD is a priority and it takes all of us working together and offering solutions. So let's continue working together to create ever better educational outcomes for our students. Please join us in the next conversation that we have with the community. Thank you to SAISD for the commitment to all students and families. This work does not end here. Supporting all students in SAISD is a priority and it takes all of us working together and offering solutions. We will continue to work together to create even better solutions for education and for our children. Please join us in the next conversation communicate ... Please join us in the next conversation in