share The recording is now officially on and we are well. We're half hour into our usual usual time Finish with the link for January 4th 2023 and Bentley do you see the Niagara link in the chat or should we post that for you again? I Think yes, okay. That's the fish dog. Yeah, it says five online. So I think you're in there Yeah, they're all Jitsies chat is persistent more more than Zoom Oh, I didn't know that I mean, yeah, zoom you only get the chats that have been since you've been on but and Jitsie they I think they You get all the ones since the beginning of the meeting when you pop in. Oh Interesting. So this is a Jitsie hedge dog No, no, I'm just saying in the Jitsie chat. Oh, okay. They put the link in the Jitsie chat. Gotcha Yeah, it's a bit more sensible history wise actually. I like that behavior. Yes Of course, there's the implications. I used to work on in a chat product There's a lot of like present implications with like showing any message that you know What's in before you join in the case of you know, whatever people don't particularly Get along with you. Yeah. Yeah, but this is not the case here. So this is great interesting two things that might be interesting to the group one is Paul Roney of Cosmic is interested in picking up the tools for thinking podcast because we're kind of wrapping up Season one of the podcast and beta works is kind of done with its tools for thinking and it's think camp So they're kind of stepping aside and Paul was like, hey, this is this is a cool thing You've got a small audience growing. It's the audience is very small the number of listens and all that is pretty low But we've got a lots of interesting in individual feedback from people like, oh, this is awesome Let's like let's keep going and also I think there's a nice resonance in multiple communities that we're all part of and care about so Paul and I are rethinking how the podcast might work and I suggested multiple hosts and multiple threads and sort of an umbrella topic where We could have different people step in and either just do an episode or Pick up a thread and start a sub thread like there could be a tools for thinking geeky channel that has its own podcast thread Which is about the code and about the standards and protocols and about whatever and there could be a different one That covers different kinds of topics I don't know but I'm interested in who would like to participate and how much we're probably gonna I think we're having a call in a couple days And then we're gonna put out a call to our communities that says anybody interested Please show up and then offer You could you could host an episode you could host a channel you could do whatever whatever and also we'd like to use tools for thinking heavily in the podcast because It's a podcast about tools for thinking but His initial passion and interest this may interest you a lot Chris is the early visionary Documents of computing sort of JCR lick-lider lick-lider Ted Nelson Doug Engelbart unfortunately mostly white men But these documents that sort of describe what's possible and where what our future might look like if we have these cool novel tools Create Working with those documents and those ideas to make them more accessible to increase computer literacy about computer history Assessing those documents in terms of What came true and what didn't were the flaws and one of our podcast episodes early on hit that territory The one that Paul was on where we were like hey if you look at the for instance if you look at the Macintosh finder The earliest versions of the finder were more faithful to Early renditions of what was possible and they an apple kept like removing features and possibilities from the finder That's interesting And you know where else might that go how else might that work? I'm particularly interested in what about these Visions can inform our future like like what can we build better? White or brighter or faster more better for society because of these these visions and what modern visions are showing up That take us new and interesting places. So that I'm that's kind of my the piece. I'm more interested in I'll stop I'll stop now But but that's on the table and we're excited my ability to participate in spending a lot of time there sort of depends on my Fundability with Ev my backer. So that's that's still I'm still trying to sort that out, but that's my hope That sounds amazing Jerry. Let's reuse The there's one. Well, there's there's was a point where folks were doing A thing called micro casting and some still do it. So it's essentially a podcast. That's typically Like 10 or 15 minutes or shorter And it was I don't know it reminds me of like an early version of seismic, but a distributed one where people weren't doing it in one space and It was kind of creating conversation and most people were doing it from their own websites and Distributing it out and then the tough part becomes how do you discover it and find it? But I've got a friend in Ireland who made Kind of a centralized service that's kind of like It's like a but essentially it's a bookmarking service for audio called Huff Duffer That's funny you can create an account and Save things to it and essentially when you're on a page that has audio you Click a bookmarklet and it essentially saves that audio to your account But the account automatically creates RSS feeds for everything that has incoming so There's an RSS feed for me as a user There's an RSS feed for all the people I'm following on the service There are RSS feeds for every tag that exists on the service So if you used a tag like tools for thinking as an example you could follow that as an RSS feed and then it becomes a Distributed service that anyone can create a podcast and tag it with that and put it into that system and Then get a feedback out So I think the end Indie web actually uses it if you tag anything with the word Indie web That's an audio podcast it automatically puts it into that feed and it shows up automatically in the newsletter every week But if you wanted to create a distributed version Anybody could create a podcast of any length Put it in there and tag it and then suddenly everyone could see and read it But it becomes a way for people anybody who's interested in that tool of thought to not have I mean There's benefits to curation and the gatekeeping part of we're gonna have This as a topic But then you may also get more community interest in throwing it into a place that isn't Gate kept in that same way And then it also opens up the format to is it one person talking is it three people is it a Group conversation in the format can go anywhere from a few minutes to You know multiple hours of people really wanted to do that Love that and I love how the name of the services Built on high frequency direction finding or huff-cuff It's a fun little service that you know and I usually I use it in a bookmarky sort of way, but I also Take the stuff that gets posted there and it shows up on my side as You know the bookmarks of things I want to listen to or things that I actually have to listen to So there's a bunch of little amplification tools or enhancement tools So like doc drop from hypothesis Which I really like because you take a YouTube video and you drop it in and doc drop And suddenly you have the transcript married to the video and that that's just useful because the transcript is suitable blah blah blah There are several of these kinds of things It would be nice to have them talk to each other or collaborate or play together more nicely and then Pete Kaminsky Is really interested in early this year. He's he was like one of the things I want to one of the projects I want to jump into more is tools that take like a raw YouTube video and auto magically enhance them so He and Bentley A couple of years ago as part of OGM created tools that strip the links out of zoom chats and Make them available as a as a web page or whatever else So that's that's one thing that you can do and there's a bunch of other things you might do So I think that that that space could turn into a little indie web kind of suite Of tools that might be really really powerful and useful to a lot of people Interesting so to me this seems like the problem on some level is shaped similarly to well federation So, you know, I guess this actually ties in we were discussing just when you joined Jerry about like potentially Better integration with the fediverse when it comes to like searching building a third favorite a very search for example that will let you know when people in yours Social graph have already like annotated red shared Like a euro or like discuss an entity a person, etc. If you think I'll be like complimented the hour or something like like it Yeah, and on the other that's one level on another level other rich, maybe could be with things like Carly causes from Asia, you know, you know it or like there's a few of these a like suites that let users like for some like managed dumping data from all the services they use Which is related to the rich space. So sort of like individual Oh, yes, it's from Asia There's at least one more entity like this, but this is usually it will be like set of tools Set of tools that let you do Siphoning or bridging at the individual level, which is like of course even in agreement with those of service and so on Yeah, Carly causes in the hour and he's It's he is amazing. Yes And there's at least one more tool like this or repository of tools and in general here, I think we're like, you know, annotation archival and federation And the aggregation of resources into like in you know, and results like podcasts sing related Also, just shortly on the podcast production aspect and So it will be interesting you said like a challenge associated with like podcast episodes and they I have discussed with some Friends earlier perhaps also here with you which why consider my friends as well here in the fellowship and like tools for going from voice messages in a room to like a podcast draft essentially or you know like a lightweight A podcast production pipeline that seems like it could be easily implemented in telegram and matrix for example, at least But I don't know of course he I don't know all matter most but you know something like this And then and then it's interesting then Just thinking out loud Lots of people take daily notes or take notes active notes during meetings and conversations I do it in my brain, but how does that trail of How does that digital trail from a conversation online connect in To daily notes and other sorts of notes that are as hopefully as public as possible And how does that turn into a shared asset that doesn't get too thorny tangly confusing But gets more useful over time. That would be really cool. Exactly. Yes And this is where in my experience a lot of the tools already in this space. They of course, I require one time setup But they also don't integrate. They don't do it. You know, they don't Co-work, they don't collaborate So there's a high cost and you know, they like happens in open source space very often just mean implementations and They aren't in themselves each every polished This is again, we're like if we cool bullstrap some level of coordination for, you know Let's integrate a bunch of tools in this space and give them like a Unified sign up flow control surf as etc. Maybe we could add some value there And boost of a community more more easily On the podcast that sounds very interesting by the way, yeah super cool Yeah, I'm interested in particularly how a you know, people are socializing From like in this district away, right? So from like individual gardens Not walling them or even like being just part of the wall garden that maybe some tools are trying to set up We're going beyond. I think we see this pattern of you know, leapfrogging a bit To some extent the wall gardens. That's that some groups are, you know, driven by market pressure Maybe I'm capitalism. It's trying to like erect or, you know Or hold to and I think already several people essentially the nice thing is that You know, the individuals probably have the tools for most tools to actually Do so and I collaborate regardless of which tools they're using. You know, this is my my dream Me too. Me too Pragmatically also by the way One thing I'd love to do is figure out how do How do brain and agoramete in some some neutral ground somewhere or yeah, like like how do we do that? How do we implement that? My However, you you think we cool. I mean, I'm finishing personally with our chapter very very soon.  Yeah, I got patient work half a day But anyway, I think yeah, it's fine. It was interesting. So it's fine, but like I think with that and then I I would like to shift to our eye, you know, which is the idea of like you can host an Agora in this domain in this domain. It's sort of like a, you know, the prefix It will be like a photo I would I or you know, brain I would I so like I read it subred Concept, yeah, and and some interval anyway, we can discuss a it could be that or it could be just like implementing some Of the I would I like concepts of interconnecting gardens in some other tool So they the higher, you know, the wire concept. Yeah, exactly.  You tell me and we can I can set up like a demo and And then you you give the try and see, you know, whether it's our base You want to be alone is all open source or is something that, you know, perhaps you want to cherry pick some aspects into some other pipeline and That we could we could probably target in the month for that I don't know and so so sorry So are you saying it's easy to set up a subdomain or some some space in Agora that I could go use directly Or are you saying there's a way for me to add things to the brain and have them populate Space on the Agora. Yes at the second. I mean, I like the idea of it is following Oh, yeah, I don't know if I said this a lot It's like here the other is one side one time you sign up the income the inbound flows And then you just keep using the tools you want essentially Awesome, right. It's like of course, you know many edge cases But it is it works for a core journeys and the story and the story format inside of Agora is which So the default is just markdown or image file the markdown for text in agid repository somewhere But it also supports a org mode Yeah, we can add text and Yeah, it's very straightforward. Okay. Wow. Yeah And then it's like whenever you update a repository it gets reflected within 30 seconds or if it's cash for some minute, but essentially you can forget about it as for as long as you want Yeah Yes, and of course like. Oh, yeah, you know, I guess I'll share it it An outline of you know, the presentation I've been working on which is the chapter is available Which cool, you know the interaction may make do for like something, you know, I could Discuss in like a segment or something. It's weird. Yeah Yeah Yeah, anyway, thank you Thank you, thank you very cool Man. Oh while I'm thinking about it to Jerry I wanted to say thanks for putting all the podcast stuff on the wiki Because I think that was a richer nicer source of material really any other of the versions that I saw I Had better Notes and details. I mean, I think I had everything except for an embedded mp3 of the audio Oh, thank you. I dug out from somewhere else But I'm very pleased you said that that that's thank you makes the whole effort worthwhile I will share a link to the page that I think you're referring to in the chat. Yes. Thank you It took me a minute to find it. Yeah, I have no publicized it much So I was digging around really for the the audio files So I think I think you mean this page on the relate wiki, correct? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and the subsidiary pages for individual episodes exactly So this page has a directory basically to all the episodes for me. That was yeah Thank you. God. Okay. That that that is very heartening and Go ahead if it's a wiki to it also makes it easy for other people to add episodes So with access to that is the same to I'm using massive wiki here Which is Pete Kaminski's wiki, which is ironically to my mind not really a wiki. It's using github It's using github for version control, which is awesome Which gives you the wiki control version control wiki, but it has no editable front-end unless you know how to edit a markdown document On github, which means I'm using obsidian But you could use your favorite markdown editor or the built-in github mark, you know editor or whatever But that means you have to be sort of geeky to be able to wiki participate in this wiki That said it'll obey pull requests the whole you know like all of that stuff works because we're using the infrastructure to do that So yes with caught with geek caveats But the idea is exactly that the idea is and The template I used I basically Figured out what order I wanted to put things in and I then then I just started replicating the most recent of the episode pages to make A new page that's all I did The template is kind of crappy and really simple and I look at Andy Matushik's like like pages online I'm like they look really good. How do I how do I get his production value, right? I'm on I'm unclear what he's using or what he's working with But I kind of need to level that up and change the template and then once you make it long because oh my god I found something else that's cool And you'll notice at the very bottom it says other people's notes and I've got John Boerthwick down there But I only have one of his Rome notes as images only On one of the episodes so I need so there needs to be like a garden for Everybody else's notes to be easily easily findable also on these pages because the thing I'm really interested in is What did somebody else think about this? How did this? How does this weave into their world into their work into their you know? What what disagreements do they have with the things we said? That's the most interesting part of it The template is really just unpacking as much as possible. Where do you find this episode? What links did we refer to that kind of thing? And I manually Outputted the links fault the links mentioned in the conversation by looking at what I had note How I took notes in my brain and and doing most of those Outputting those and then I had to manually turn them into markdown links So that was kind of a bit tedious and could easily be automated better Yes Interesting and to make things a little more complicated. We've been shooting those we've been recording those podcasts on riverside.fm instead of on zoom so we don't really have a chat during those calls which is too bad and I think that with season two under Paul Slash me I think we're gonna abandon Riverside and go back to zoom so that the production value is lower But it's easier. The reason we went to Riverside was that the producer of the original season Josh Elster who is lovely and excellent said hey all video podcasts look like zoom and people hit them and they're like Oh god, I don't want to listen to another zoom call So we switched to something that was more malleable and looks different For this closure I work on Google meet and I we said it's like actually Makes me think of something You know related. So there's like a potential for Improving the space. Yes, and and I use me now and then I'm not as facile with it as I am with zoom I have never recorded a call in meat Fortunately someone decided that it was a great idea to charge for that and not offer any recording for Anything by the enterprise users and I think that's not great That's a bad idea terrible idea if if 233 goes per like the basic cooled. Yes I'm gonna do something to fix that. Yes, but how do we help you? Thank you. I probably won't work, but I'll let you know for example, like I Okay, if we could get like a you know, if I could if you're mind me sharing please this use case for production because I know I Managed in Stockholm actually oh for sure. Of course, please show this this use case and he's precisely all about how to increase You know production values. Yeah, and and seeing line a pipeline from a meeting to an artifact so my normal process at least three times every week for the last three years ish or It hasn't always been three is I finish a zoom call an hour later I get an email from zoom that says hey your recording is here.  I I then upload the files to youtube, right? It's like if this was in google meat and google is not smart enough to do this I don't think yet, but if I could say hey by the way Um, when we've got the recording just just posted to youtube with these meta tags automatically and the title of the episode and all that We're halfway like to saving a whole mess of time and this space and everything else Yeah, I completely agree and I have had related conversations But I cannot promise anything but I will do my best essentially if this is useful to you You can you can clip this recording like You know when you when you if you need evidence or testimonials use this recording and like show them Cool. Cool. So I think that's like a consent to share. Thank you There's at least three people out here who want to use that which makes the market as far as I can tell Yeah, and I think if you did right, of course, it should be Compatible with many different inputs and outputs to put somewhere Exactly. And then once you've got that problem solved If you can create theme ability on top of video Yes, so then I can use google meat and flip a switch to say make it look like zoom make it look like microsoft make it look like Something else customizable that I put my own css on. Yeah Then you've really got something Uh, yes Uh, I'll really use it for all kinds of entertainment purposes and do You know Right now there's four of us. So they're ideally four camera feeds and four audio feeds If I can take those individual streams and remix them in any way I want You know, you're you're getting into some of the You know video switching technologies that get pretty dense and heavy, but this rapidly gets complicated because for example In oh nice Wow Um, this rapidly gets gets complicated because for instance in music sharing There's there are sub communities where they share multitrack recordings of songs And so anybody else who's busy riffing on them can turn channels on and off remix add filters do whatever the hell they want And really super interesting ways Completely yes, I think it's an exciting space. I'm actually happy to work in this space Although I work more on reliability, but I'm interested in and I think in general like this will work will happen either You know held by Corporation which are aware or just not by the community So it's not that of time. Yep. Yep Very nice. Love that gift I can I interject just something I was just about to share the tools for thinking podcast or mast on On the failure as I should say and a Are you on the failure or scary because I cannot find you I I have a mast. I have two mast that on accounts I don't really use them. I don't have a rhythm to use them. I have a tab open right here Where I can come back into it. I'll find you. What's your Share your share your lanes in the chat here and I'll just connect with you there and then you can That would be awesome. Yeah And I want to tag you there also to like help people find you there And I have posted almost nothing there. So if something pulled me into posting I would do that That will be awesome. And uh, you know Chris is there. I don't know. Uh, Bentley, you're there So I flaunt. I flauntian. I have just added you I'm Yeah, Bentley Davis tool tools for thoughts rocks Yeah And I'm on tools for thought rocks as well because that's nice that seemed like a good one I am jerry with the three tools for thought rocks And I'm just staring at the mast that on the interface going where do I pick up my email with my my mast on address Because I don't have it memorized and I don't I don't think I have it in a macro in my little text expander Yes, I wasn't finding you because I didn't know the three. Uh-huh. Yes Exactly. I did that just try to try to be unique on servers Yeah, I can't search it's like, uh, so ultimately in master doesn't do this Well, you know what it doesn't do either. So I shouldn't shouldn't complain Thank you My master on handles. Okay. Good. So Um, I can recommend well, I recommend I do cross posting Uh from twitter to master another way Some people like some people don't I think it's a net positive overall Yeah, and I can also help you help people find you Because it's like, you know, like it it produces the rebels, right? Exactly And the and early One of my early twitter stories very early in twitter Is that I had some utility that cross posted from twitter to facebook so that every one of my tweets went to facebook And one day I was in south of market and I left a really interesting meeting about the cash healthcare economy Which is some people just buy only reinsurance for for catastrophic care And then they they do everything else cash And it turns out that if you walk up to the cashiers window in a hospital and you say I I Like I know that you're in what you're billing me for like $5,000 But I will give you cash today now for $1,000 or whatever like the discount is crazy But but hospitals like cash in the bank right this second and they will negotiate down tremendously And this and so so I tweeted I only tweeted just left a meeting about the cash healthcare economy Which was fascinating. That's it two days later on facebook because of this link I get a 10 paragraph message from an acquaintance not a friend who says Oh, I took my family off healthcare a decade ago. It's been really good. This is what happened And I'm like I had no idea. There was anybody in my circles who knew that it was one of my early like wow This is really powerful moments Yeah, completely. I mean in general like my my current position is Because of how social media set up as a broadcast Medium And because of the, you know, there's already Like you know, essentially spam or you know, like well spam And you know an overprovision of data, which is not particularly interesting to to oneself Maybe a majority it's fine to just pros like default And and essentially Lean on people's clients and setups to like filter out or in so essentially cross-porting by default seems to be optimal Yeah Definitely. Thank you. Yep. Thank you Talk to you guys later. Um, thank you One of the things i'm realizing is that I don't do enough of is related to what you were just saying plancin, which is I use read wise except I do nothing with everything I send to read wise. So um, so I highlight our highlight things in kindle And I connect that to read wise But then I don't go use those quotes because it's two steps behind the curtain to get there and do it And one of my beefs in the world is that it's really hard to point to a sentence in a book That would solve my problem, but I'm not actually doing Right because I could because I could take a read wise quote and take that permalink and put it in my brain as the link to the quote And that should work Right. It's the same thing with hypothesis. I don't use hypothesis much It lets you highlight and comment on and get a permalink to a block of text on a page Do I use it? No Right exactly it's like uh, and this brings me back to this um This article by Fernando already shared on like, you know, maybe it's fine that not everything is integrated anyway Yeah, I go back and forth on that one because for me integration It's just My my authority is that it sets my mind at ease because I know that I can I can I I I have like a Aboriginal way of getting to personally the whole of my production or interlinking um, so yeah, but uh, but I it was interesting that um A share as well that I'll take um, there's a few I would our users which already sync And Think to the uh, uh, sink a read wise mm-hmm It's very it's it's kind of interesting and disconcerting because if we managed to Cross post a lot and link these things up and connect up The feeds and the power tools that's phenomenal, but a little you've got a now in your head manage and remember What's talking to what otherwise really embarrassing things happen? Also, um, but then if you couple that with chat gbt and the future that is like now here Yeah, of soliciting help from power tools like those then It's going to take a tremendous amount of neural flexibility to live in that world A neural flexibility that i'm feeling like i'm going to have to learn up into And that maybe like new new humans born into the world right now That take this for granted will just take for granted right and they'll they'll have that capacity But there could be it used to be I remember a day when Computers became normal in workplaces where there was an age for men And it was somewhere around 50 or 55 years old where men above that age did not know how to touch type Almost none of them And you could see them struggling and suffering and they aged out of the workforce And and for a while it was a little embarrassing because they couldn't adapt to like email And stuff like that. And so there may be this other hump happening right now Which involves this neural Neuro plasticity neuro meldability with the borg That I think of as part of being a good cyborg or centaur, which is one of the thoughts i'm thinking these days It's like what does it mean to be a good cyborg? A useful and like productive cyborg, right? That is interesting.  I see part of it to even using the brain When I see pages of your brain I know what your general format is in terms of how you specifically use it And what to expect at the top of the page the bottom of the page in the side And so for me when you share those links, it's much easier for me to get a quick picture of what's going on And I don't have to pick out the jumble of links Because intuitively I know what they mean because of where you place them and the views that you use From your to God's ears. Thank you or the conventions you use with Uh, was it like yellow and purple? Yep, exactly colors. So I have that I have that grammar Now built into my head or this is how Jerry uses the brain But when I see how other people use it or if I were to use it myself I might make other choices with other views And I think that becomes part of the problem that usually for me the big problem is In a social media centric world I might put a piece of information in facebook and not on twitter And then six months from now when I go looking for it How easy is it to find in a general sense? Much less Which service did I put it on did I put it in pin board? Did I put it on twitter? Did I put it? Where was it? Yeah versus in your case? It's always In one spot. So it becomes a lot easier to find correct, right My look up my look up doesn't involve where they held that this happened or where they held that I put this My look up never involved that Yeah, and so those types of There's and as well when you watch Film you can go look through the history of film and there is a A development of a grammar of film For simple things like, you know shooting day for a night or in the Late 80s early 90s. There was the three camera explosion Set up You'll always had three camera shooting any explosion you made in a movie So that you could do the quick cut of here's how it works from all the angles And use all that and then that you know hundred thousand dollar explosion you had on film Gave an additional like value to your movie But the first couple times that happened the the the people watching it don't have Or when you're watching the Lumiere brothers and the trains coming at you straight at the camera The crowd shrinks back Because they don't understand the grammar of the film yet And I think there's that same type of grammar in online and right now the primary grammar is a flow of Text down a page so you can scroll infinitely So have you watched the youtube short that I shot that I just posted to the chat? No Because you just basically spoke it not quite verbatim Nice Yeah, no, I haven't seen it. Okay. It's a one minute short. Is there a way we can play it together here that works? Does jitsi does jitsi allow? It should be nice. It should we share video actually that's I wonder if this works. Can you try? Yeah, thanks No, unfortunately, it hasn't been updated the disintegration to use to work with shorts. Oh interesting It's just a youtube link. Oh, but it is it is in shorts interesting. Okay Huh, I didn't think about that. Anyway, it's it's a one minute thing where I basically say Early movies put a camera on a tripod in front of theater because we knew what theater was Then somebody said hey, we could put the tripod on a dolly and they invented the pan And then blah blah blah to everything you just said Although I didn't know about the three cameras on explosions at all And I should add that to my brain or or just the fast editing and tv style Yeah, exactly exactly there's a vocabulary in the grammar that that evolves and becomes the language of cinema, right? And so my claim is in this thing is the the interwebs are stuck on mainstream media metaphors We have magazine articles. We have tv and radio We have phone calls that luckily have video added, but we don't have a lot of other variety grammar and language This reminds me just surely all like a some of your client I we're discussing at some point, I believe and also with another friend, Armin Gold, who's like a Catalan artist About the grammar and language of like tools, you know, like people apply to their notes So which converges with this and how we may need mental model translation Which is like I'm going back to the eye and I saw the last I think the last episode or the previous two last from the podcast was about the eye or one of the last And you know, how maybe Adapting from conventions is like something that is in our future like automatically so we can translate from like, you know Jerry Jerry's brain to crisis You know, uh, go for soco conventions essentially or to our convention. I got into finance and also some other user Um, and that could be by a machine learning or it could also be if we agree on some way of codifying that like actually I agree on a grammar description And to actually say this is how I mention entities. This is how I share links, right in my mouth Exactly. So I was reminded too because I I think it was either the first or Well, it was the second or third of the tools for thinking podcast Jerry talked about kind of infinite canvases and being able to move around on them and The tool you were using eventually limited that and took it away It kind of made me think of how Google world does the 3d jump from one part of a country to another So that you get a sense of travel and movement across space And I I don't know if it still exists I have to really dig around to find it because it was a super crazy deep link But I saw a web developer who created a massive nearly infinite canvas on an html page and then put You know, it essentially was a big murder board, but there were little stories That you could jump to and he created the link so that A link would take you to a zoom in on that page And then you could click to it and it would scroll over automatically and there was kind of a scrolling movement So just a sense of moving from one piece of the page and then it but it would zoom in on Each individual story. Yeah versus the You know, and I I want to say it was sometime in 2012 and Neil dash wrote an article about moving from individual pages on the web To the kind of infinite scroll we see in a lot of social media now because it benefits this, you know surveillance capitalism keeping your attention moving Um But we need more kind of visual grammars on the web, I think yes To expand the space of what can we do? And we're the problem is you get so stuck in The older grammars and they're so comfortable creating new ones is First not easy, but then once you've created it. How do you help fit it in to ease the cognitive dissonance of The new grammar you've created and there's a really big complication with My my premise. I think I showed premise that the web is stuck in mainstream media metaphors, which is that one of the legal and mental bold barriers is over projection of ip and are internalized assumptions of what you can and cannot do around things like a book Right and and so one of my beliefs is that books books and pdfs are basically where information goes to die And yet books are the highest cultural artifacts our civilization creates But these things are contradictory Because we over protect the material that's inside books. These are like people's best ideas Which should be the commerce and and and tangible artifacts of of idea trade, but they're not completely and like an interlink in there like for example Uh, as it could be done if you just were able to say, you know, you can call this This is like you're in a book paper and they could be a convention for example for to say you want to like Call this page. This is how you do it or I mean a dream of like being able to write in a book or in like something you'll print For example, I print out a weak link Right in a way that then can be easily like looked up this thing like, uh, you know Lens or some camera allowance sort of like the qr what qr calls do In practice, uh But the way higher friction. So how do we fix this? We were talking about earlier I think it's this this seems like a perfect mission. This is much better than sauron and somebody's ring I mean seriously, what's up with the ring? Um, this is a great mission for the fellowship of the link. I completely agree I think honestly what that might my proposal. Yeah Is that, you know, given that we started a new year? I don't know if you're like in calendar building mode, but I am Yep, uh, perhaps Start with a shared calendar, which means just like a plan Like at one place where we say this is our plan for this year it's our plan for the the way I see the hour personally and By default I see the hour as part of like as a device that we can use to accomplish or share goals like this one But you know, like standing in for any such advice I personally see it as a seven year effort currently so But, you know, I think we could get like a pretty good My proposal and you know, I might if it would be something like fatty search or like some federated search for the social media for resources Right this integration layer that could be a bit more user friendly if it, uh, I will have a chance to actually, uh, Give users a user journey that say a corporate entity like twitter won't right We could probably work on the right to have that something like this running by 25 Will be my goal in the interest of goals and planning and stuff like that. I just shared a document that I was That I talked through in my previous conversation with my Romanian friends Um about bigger goals that I'm trying to set up And that one through 12 that I think didn't reorder itself when I How do I get this document or oh, I did. Okay. Good. It showed up in proper order um So I'm thinking about the months of this year and and I've not created enough things over the last decades So I was like, how do I how do I pretend that I've been diagnosed with a terminal illness? Um, and really like leave it all on the field this year. That's that's kind of that's kind of how I'm starting to try to think because Yes, I am in salon hosting Relaxy mode and that's not creating anything I could be doing I have way too many ideas and I don't know how to corral them And I need to figure out how to make this thing stable. So I'm not worried about income But that's what I want. That's my where my passion is So this one through 12 was a collection of pretty big chunks to take a bite out of which might together Make a picture of this world that I would like and I think we would like to inhabit Um and and this conversation is creating more such project ideas that I didn't have on that list that kind of fit in What I would love all feedback comments thoughts, whatever But this is this is how I'm thinking This this sounds this looks amazing Like I'm sort of looking forward to reading this my my I think you did the right thing You show an example essentially I but but my proposal. I mean applying our elemental model to this right that we each write Or like share our plan independent plan and then we do the emails Say but if we could do it by in next session or say by end of the month I mean how we want and see, you know, like the common connection part the connection points And perhaps, you know, what wherever we have an exos We have like a very highly ranked project I would love that That works for me An amazing motivation that works for me. Um, the record it's more than an hour the recording has been recording and it hasn't stopped Some no because you started out how it passed Oh And I came into the so the call timer is actually for the whole call Apparently. Oh, that's what, you know, yeah, we started at about 26. So you got about 10 minutes. Okay. Good Too bad. I mean because I wish I wish just you would fix that Yeah, yeah So well that sounds like a amazing and I'm I will be happy to I'm up for that entirely and this document is the start of my plan Just like nice nice I have mine on I think I have it in revolutionary calendar. All right, nice But uh, yes, I'll I'll uh, put it in good shape for next time. Awesome. That sounds great Chris, are you are you interested? Yeah, you can do that Awesome, that sounds like a a way to Pull something off. Yeah Yeah, because I'm I'm sitting here trying to figure out.  To go get more things done that could feed this thing we want and then If you look down the page a little bit, it's got criteria It's like Some of these things nobody else cares about but me How do I attract more people to it? Or do I leave it behind because it's not interesting to others? Some of these things are a little bit dangerous Like like they're controversial or they might you know attract some some some Metaphoric gunfire Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Some of these things are not doable. Some of these things are easily doable. Those are all my variables kind of in in the mix That sounds very interesting. Yeah, these are also info ha start this weekend or for the things that aren't easily doable I'm sorry, please for the things that aren't easily doable Oh, what's the rest of yours for so for the things that aren't easily doable How can you how can you write up enough of a description of what it is? Is an artifact to leave behind for someone else to pick up or at least Exactly see some Experiments and what the direction was and then work on the things that you can work on until they're you know and having a list of um, and I think it actually Feynman had a In particular a list of 12 problems. He was always working on And when he finished one he would move it off and then find some other new problem but he always had a list of 12 specific things that he was working on Which helps to you know, apparently focus your attention Feynman famously said you have to keep a dozen of your favorite problems constantly present in your mind Although by and large, they will lay in a dormant state Nice, exactly I That's amazing. It's sort of like I listen the direction of well many things platform for trying to explore like community to do lists, but you know like Yeah, I define problems that are much between our sets for like in senior spaces It has potential And I even know programmers who use github Not so much for the programming piece But they'll have a handful of like areas like you've got jerry And then they file issues or ideas against it as a means of keeping track of where that particular problem is Although there's obviously other ways you can do that It's interesting because I hack the brain to do a lot of these things for me in different ways and then it taps out at some corners But a piece of my wish list For an open global mind platform that's more flexible that does more things Is the ability to add different kinds of frames or different kinds of I think of them as I use the view graph metaphor It's like when you go click now when you just go click you just see a new scene of the of whatever little Film thing you put in but what I mean is you suddenly can pivot from looking at whatever data You are staring at as a brain view to cumul view to Outline view to air table view and all of a sudden all of a sudden you're in table manipulation land Which is like exactly what you need for the new part of the problem like The thing I should do with the one through 12 list on the bigger goals page I just shared with you is that should be a decision aid matrix Which should roll out and should then include for each cell the variables that are in the The variables that I listed down below and that would help me kind of do a decision made Out of out of that decision matrix aid out of that But I'm on in markdown and obsidian which and I've done some tables in obsidian. They are very clunky Yeah, obsidian obsidian is not a happy table making tool Um, right. So so so how does our informational environment? Seemfully switch between The different kinds of things we need in order to express ourselves with each other and do the work Really Yeah, my experience like something like I see and works better for this why is trees a lot like outlines So you can pivot a table into a tree essentially will like it's clunky. Yes um And it could be There's there's a lot of semantic where promise. I guess there. I see, you know If you could only say this list is of intense things I want to do Then that seems like it could be parsed by at all, you know, uh, but until we get there Yeah, I think markdown is actually not the worst the intermediate format to save because Then of course we can presumably write markdown to You know, uh To whatever tool and we write it once should we be saving in json instead of markdown? Would that be a clever thing? So that's what uh, I think Boris Mann may think that it's my representation of His thoughts at least last year with the json lv. I think yeah Jason some other you know the thing that that was developed by condenast Yes, that is the json 18 or something like that. Yes json. Yeah, exactly. I am uh currently unconvinced And and this is where like I think we uh, we have discussion with the body of the bodies I mean because I just value personally Human reliability the most. Yes Uh, because it seems to me that you know, we can solve That markdown has enough structure to to be you know to get us 80 percent of the way there And and that and the popularity beats, you know, the Purity of having like, you know a more A richer language to work with But I may be wrong Essentially, we don't know at json. You're right. At json. Yeah, I think that's the one Yes, so But maybe uh, what we want is to be able to say this is a blog post or this is a Type of note and the original format is this and then have like, you know Uh be able to choose the canonical Eventually and then have like a converter from any to any Yes, um Trying to reduce coordination costs are yet there But uh, I don't know. Yeah Cool. Awesome I what what looks to me too and I need to explore it more but um json format Looks a lot like How Beatrice web used to take her notes And she would you know in some sense keep keyed pairs of here's this thing with this other thing that relates to it or metadata about it And generally she kept them on individual cards So her json was written as those keyed pairs One to each card and then she would sift through them and reorganize them And it's the same pattern that you see in like an excel spreadsheet It's just a slightly easier more portable format But I see a lot of people using