ving, people pay a lot of attention to putting on the gown and putting on the glove. There's very little attention to de-gowning and de-gloving, right? Because it's about gowning and gloving. When do you really need to be careful when you're putting on the gown or once you're removing the gown? What's the purpose of the gown? Protection from what? Germs. And where do the germs get on? The gown and the glove. They don't get on as you wear it. This Jas Papama had a method for de-gowning and de-gloving. And you know, it's likes to dance and move. And I mean, this was an art form. So a year or two after this project ended during, a year or two into the project, we asked him if he would do a video of the Jas Papama method, which he did. And it doesn't bring out his personality, but you learn about de-gowning and de-gloving. Do you wanna see? Let's see if we can get it to play. And don't worry if you don't hear Jas Papama. He's very soft-spoken in this, although maybe we'll hear him. But if you don't, just watch him. But this is what he'll do as you see in the image. Hello. Hi. I'm Jas Papama. Hello. From the Albert Einstein Medical Center escort department. I'm here to show you a simple technique of disposing of isolation gowns after contact in an isolated room. It's a method that's very simple. Notice the gown has been inverted. Now, start to make a nice little ball. This prevent air from getting in and making it too hard to handle. Nice, slow roll over and over and observe the glove. Grasp in the middle. First one goes over the top and the second one goes over there. Creating a nice little ball that you can now dispose of in a trash can anywhere from 50 to 150 with no spillage. Thank you. Hello. Oh, Jas Papama. I'm Jas Papama. Oh, come on, Jas. From the Albert Einstein Medical Center. That's good. A little study, no? Quick and dirty with glow germs. If you use the Jas Papama method versus the traditional method, and you know what that looks like, but that's the normative way. Jas Papama method controls spillage by more than 80% relative to the normative method. And the Jas Papama method, how many did he say? You can now, this ball, you can dispose off from a 50 to 100, 150, depending on the size of the, how many times does that thing need to be cleaned and emptied if you're throwing gowns the traditional way? Hanging out and spilling and you get the idea, okay? Because we don't see it, it's there. So the point that we are making is this is the transport department. Mr.  Oh, yeah, I've been doing this for 30 years. The donkeys have been coming and going. And the key is not, there's not one donkey, the multiple donkeys that have been coming and going. A thousand donkeys. You, we find a thousand people or a thousand practices, let's put it this way, that exist, which were previously completely unseen. And this is just for one issue, infection control. There are lots of other issues. So he knows how to move. And so we found a nurse who, her morning practice, this is at Billings Clinic in Montana, morning practice when she came in and she washed her hands and sanitized her hands. She would, so let me, a lot of you deal with gloves. When you pull out gloves, how many do you pull out? You're saying what kind of a strange question is that? A pair, right? Typically, I mean that's, I think that's normative practice. A pair. That seems to be the norm. This nurse, when she came to work, she would put her hand in and pull out as many pairs as she could. 15, 20. Oh my God, I mean what's wrong with her? Right? And she would put it in a sanitized. She's an ER, I mean she works emergencies. And let's say there's a code red. And what's happening? Blue, blue. Mix my colors. These are important colors not to mix. And you know, let's say there are people, and let's say the patient has an infectious agent. What does she do? She stands outside and gives them. This is non-normative practice. Why do you do that? I don't know, I just do it. Oh, okay. Because she has 20 pairs of gloves in her pocket, she can do it. So we find another nurse, she must have been from Texas because she carried something in a holster or what looked like a holster was prettier than a holster. And she carried a bottle of Purell. That was a normative practice. Her hand hygiene traveled with her and she could stand and give you a little shot. And she could discharge many shots at once. She could just keep going, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. This is a normative practice, is it? So then you ask, how can we, it's like, oh no, I don't want that holster thing, right? But the nurses decided, well, maybe we can have pendants, chains in which we can carry our Purell. Oh, okay. So you make it actionable, right? The wisdom is there, you find it. It surfaces and you figure out a way to make it actionable so that people are using it so that they're acting on it. Not tell them, carry your hand hygiene with you. You can read the hundreds of little things that came up just by asking a question, like a Mother Teresa question or a Gandhi question. And a question that in its very essence had a quest to look for the donkeys. There's some doctors, please, doctors are the good people. And yes, in aggregate, they may be worst offenders when it comes to, but look at Dr. Walt.  I mean, what kind of a doctor is he? No full sleeves, no jacket, no tie. He's an infectious disease specialist. He knows that the white coat, the full sleeves, the jacket, the tie, they're all vectors of infection transfer. He knows that, well, everybody knows that. But what's normative? I was at Texas A&M, I told you, and I love Texas A&M. And speaking to medical students, 869 had registered for this. And all the medical students were wearing pretty much white coats and ties, all of them who were in the room. There were 300 in the room and then they were, and of course I had to tell this story in great detail. By telling them that you're all good people, but you should know that there are doctors who don't wear this and they do it because like you, they want to serve their patients. And then I also talked about him in terms of, he sometimes, not sometimes, the stethoscope.  I mean, bestows some prestige on you, right? It's an extension of your body and then what do you do with it if you're carrying it? I mean, you've got to use it, no? And so you use it, no? It's like unprotected, whatever, no? But there's some who would wipe it with an alcohol swab before they use it. That's not normative practice. Is that normative practice? Hopefully, good, good, good to know. Walt has a positively deviant way of doing rounds. And you're saying, what? Rounds are rounds, right? He's an infectious disease doctor. So some of his patients are in isolation. And when you're a doctor and you're doing rounds, he decides that he does his rounds in a certain way. Certain way, he charts the path to his rounds, really. Whom does he go to first? First, he goes to his non-infectious patients who are in non-isolation. Yes, because doctors can go wherever they want. They're God, right? Are you gonna tell them which patients to go to first? They bounce around the way they want to bounce around, right? And many do bounce around. He first visits his non-infected patients who are not in isolation. And only then later does he visit us. He says, this is non-normative. Is it normative? I don't know. I'm not a medical doctor, but you get the idea? So there are thousands of little things which can make a big difference as in people's lives, as in the quality of care outcomes that we also desire. If you want to use a certain way of looking at the common ground, I think we all want patient safety, quality of care. That's the common ground, even though we live in silos. Doctors, I'm a nurse, I'm a transporter. I'm this many feet high and you are so short, I mean we live in that world. That's the reason why the Lincoln way of thinking is important, I mean you come back to it. What's the common ground? The transporter who de-gowns and de-glubs in a certain way. And a medical doctor who does his rounds in a different way. Or a patient who's figured out a way to nudge and nod. They are all in essence standing on a certain common ground. Even though they are different. So PD embraces that sensibility of that common ground. You're saying the wisdom is not just with a certain expert in a particular silo, but it lies everywhere, it's distributed. And how do we create that norm of that common ground as being the driver of that wisdom being accessed and accessed? I had to somehow loop back to Lincoln because we've been looping back to Mother Teresa and to Gandhi and Donkeys, but a good idea to bring Lincoln back and the notion of the common ground, yeah? You like the fact that we knit these stories into data points and a way of thinking? Because if you were to only remember these notions, wisdom is distributed, lies with the common ground. Forget about silos, oh I'm this tall and you're that tall and I know inches and centimeters, if you get rid of all that, at least conceptually, thinking-wise, you will be at a different place. And then you add the Nasiruddin's, the Donkeys and the Mother Teresa's and the Gandhi's and you'll be at a very different place. So this is what happened in these six hospitals. And some hospitals have continued, in fact all the six have continued. And they've now, once you begin to think in a certain way and you begin to think in a certain way for infection control, you begin to say, well heck, I can apply this to pain management. Big issue, no? Is it? Very big issue. There's some nurses who are far more adept at calling a doctor at 1 a.m. in the morning to make sure that they can, on behalf of their patients, get some pain medication than most others are. You know, most are like, what, I'm crazy? I'm gonna call him or her at 1 a.m. in the morning? And they've figured out a way. Well, what do they do? They first call the pharmacist in the hospital. Why would you do that? Because the pharmacist knows the history of every individualized patient. The pharmacists have a very good idea about the range of pain medication that a particular doctor prescribes or has prescribed for their patients. So this nurse first has a conversation with the pharmacist. You know, I'm sitting here, I know the doctor prescribes a medication for her, you have the range order, whatever, and the patient needs more, is in deep pain. And what do you think?  It's not a formal conversation. Yeah, you know, it's on the side. Those are their terms, they aren't mine. They have a curbside conversation with the pharmacist. And once they know what's happening and what is possible, then they call the doctor. Even if it's at 1 a.m. And of course, they know that they've created the conditionality for some irritation because that phone is gonna ring and it'll be answered. And so they're very precise about the first phrase, the first sentence that comes out. This is Dr.  It matters what that first sentence is. And it matters you've had a curbside conversation so that your second sentence says something like, it's Mrs. Smith and I've already spoken to the pharmacist and this is the present order. I think we can go up to this much if you'd say yes. Yes, it's a short official conversation. And they love these nurses. The doctors love these nurses because they are invested in the care and just like, oh my God, this nurse does her due diligence before she calls me. And guess what? The pharmacists love it. Why? Because they are so far detached from the actual care of their patients. They love to be consulted on Mrs. Smith. They have their records. They know what medication she's on. And it all came down to finding somebody who's figured out a way to focus on the patient's pain outcomes even though, gee, I can't call the doctor. She's figured out a way. You can learn a lot from her because what she does is completely non-normative including what her first sentence is which she practices a few times, taken several deep breaths as that phone is ringing, right? So deep breaths, taken deep breaths as part of that PD secret sauce. We pay no attention to these things. Secret sauce, small things that make a big difference. And if you do a lot of small things which involve a lot of people, the difference can be stupendous. That's what we are saying. Do you wanna hear a few more cases from outside? Danish prisons, big problem. Well, actually, they're one of the finest running prison systems as measured by recidivism. What is recidivism? Repeat offense. What's the purpose of a prison system if it's in part rehabilitation? Should be. I mean, what's the purpose of a hospital? Is it in part well-being? Okay, good. I'm glad we agree on a few things. Yeah, I mean, you know, so then why are they getting infected if that's the, yeah, or if they're in, okay, so, if they're in the prison and they're spending time while they're coming back, right? You get the idea, and you know, so fundamentally you've got to ask what are prisons, what's the common ground that we can all agree on? Okay, the task is rehabilitation. No repeat offense, no, that's recidivism. You know what the rates of recidivism, recidivism are here in this country? If you look at, you have to always count time, right? In how many years were they back? Five years, it's about 70%. Do you know what the recidivism rate is in Denmark? It's a little higher, it's about 15, which is great. 15%. But they have a big problem. The prison system, gee, I mean, you can say, phew, good job, five times better than the US. More, actually. But there's a problem. And this is the problem that they were trying to solve in Denmark.  Get the idea? In a year than other government officials. You have three times the number of mental health prescriptions. You have very high rates of turnover and burnout. Average age of retirement for a Danish prison official is 48. Do you get the idea? They're 20 times more likely to attempt to kill themselves. So there's a prison system, and this is a wicked situation, a prison system that's, whoa, good, but then at a cost. It's a problem. Especially for the Danes, no? I mean, Scandinavia, right? Where you really take care of your people. You pay taxes too. But, and so they've been trying to fix this for a long time. And then they asked a very PD-like question against all odds. So where are the highest odds in a maximum security prison, right? Why do you think the odds are the highest in a maximum security prison when it comes to burnout or when it comes to stress? The nature of whom you're dealing with, right? And this would be like, you know, working only with the patients in the NICU. Right? And you know, or being in the emergency room with a stab wound and a gunshot and everything happening at once. Very high rates of stress because the job, you don't know, I mean, you're walking next to a murderer, you know you're walking next to a murderer or a rapist or whatever. So this case, nothing to sneeze about. This is a, could that go? I mean, I thought I'll make a try and see if some people would, oh, good, I'm getting good at this. So where will we? Okay. So if you're in a maximum security prison, you are at very high risk for all these things, huh? Yeah, exactly. Because stressful, right? There's a maximum security, there are locks after locks after locks and the people who are there need to be locked up after locked up after, you know, and so nothing to sneeze about, as I said. So you're looking at the worst case scenario, right? Gandhi, fourth class, I mean, you know, in this case, it's like I want to see if something's working in a situation which should be really bad. And then you ask the question, are there certain prison officials who work in maximum security prisons who are thriving? And you can measure that, right? How many days have they been absent, right? So I think the measure they used who's been absent no more than five days as opposed to 35, and you can, you know, you can say 10, even that's good. But you're looking at outliers, right? You're not looking at what's normal, what's average. The joy of looking at outliers. Those who, let's say, are in their 50s, no? I'm making this up, but you know, and those would be the kind of criteria you'd be. Those who've had the least number of mental health prescriptions written. So that's what makes them an outlier, that they're a prison official, working in a maximum security prison, very low absenteeism, and among those, very low mental health prescriptions. Among those, you know, it's like you're, all these variables are sieves, right? The answer is yes, there are some. Really, there are some.  I mean, these guys should be going crazy, right? Why aren't they? Why aren't they? And of course, the answer is, you won't believe. What they do, right?  You wanna know? It is the who done it. You want to know. That's the joy of PD. That's the reason why researchers like Dr. Dura and I find it interesting. If you're a researcher, I want to know the unexplainable.  It's given, it should surprise you. So what do they do? Well, some of the prison guards have just made an informal pact with themselves. And maybe with one or two other people that they will not read the dossier of the prisoner who comes in. How crazy. And the first thing you want to do is read, no? Who's here, right? Like oh, boy, impressive record, no? 11 murders and. Okay, so remember when we were harvesting the secret sauce, somebody said no judgment. What does it do to you if you have little idea of who is in your prison? Whereas what's normative is everybody knows who's in the prison now. What does it do to you in terms of how you behave with them? There's no judgment. You don't know who they are. So you treat everybody the same. But the point is what do they do to you in return, right? What do they do to you in return if you don't know? It's very relational, right? If you don't judge, they must sense it and they must not give you trouble, right? That's it. They don't read the dossier. That seems to be the difference. That's making the difference. That's the secret sauce. This is like Daryl, no? This is like, that's it. It's as simple. And in their own words, they say we, by killing our curiosity, we save our lives. These are their words. Like, well, there's some other people who are thriving, no? What, you know? What explains? You wouldn't believe what these people do. What do they do? There's some guards, very few, who, what's the normative practice? Normative practice is prisoner comes in, much like patient comes in. You fill out whatever, read their dossier, blah, blah. And then you check them in. And then what do you do? You put them in the cell. That's what they're, you know, that's what they're, you put them in the doctor's examining room, right? With prisoners, you don't put them in any exam room. You take them straight to the cell. Maybe you wash them, give them their clothes, and fumigate them, and whatever. Put them in the, I think it's done in some places. Why I don't know, but you know, it's done. So here, they do, the guards do everything as others do. Check them in, shake their hand, get them, and then they do take them to their cell. Except they give them a little detour. Why would you do that?  They give them actually a tour of the prison. How crazy is that? You know, like, welcome to the maximum security.  This is non-normative practice. This is crazy. What does that do? That's the question. With PD, you always ask, what is it that somebody is doing? What's the difference that's making the difference? But you also ask, how does what they are doing make the difference? It's not just the what. It's getting a little more deep into PD. How is what that they do make the difference? How does the adding of the, it's not what they do. Oh, I add sweet potato shoots. How does what they do make the difference? Oh, it's rich in vitamin A. It's rich in, oh, when you break the meal, you get the idea? So the question to you is, I've told you what they do. How does what they do make the difference? What else happens? What does it do in terms of the prisoner's orientation towards you? If you've been given a tour, whereas most others haven't been. It's a very humane thing to do. They love these guards who give them tours. I was like, did you get a tour? No, I got a tour. I'm making this up. But, you know, I mean, that's what it is.  Don't give him a hard time. It's a good guard. The prisoners protect you. The ones who've gotten a tour. You're just giving them a tour. You have no idea that it's protecting you. You're thriving because every, you know, it's like, and when you see that prisoner again, does that make a difference? Does it make a difference when you say, well, gee, I wish we had that nurse.  Do you talk about those things? Yes, word gets around. That's what they're doing. It's that simple? Oh yeah, how long have you been given tour?  Donkeys have been coming and going. Then a few prisoners were interviewed.  Because the stress comes from the hard time. Incidents of violence and so on. They say, oh, we love the guards who respond when we ring the buzzer right away. So think about this. Spanish maximum security prisons don't have a toilet within the cell.   So guards, what kind of a life do they lead? And what are you doing when, you know, you're close to the maximum security cells? You know, you're just sitting there. You're, you know, you're swatting flies. If they're any flies, they probably aren't in Denmark. You're, you know, playing cards, watching TV and then the buzzer rings.  Their words, not mine. So what do you do with the buzzer rings? You know, let's do two more rounds of poker before I respond, right? Let's finish this. There's no hurry, right?  Let them squirm a little, no? Even if it's a little. There's some who respond right away. And the guards would say, not only do they respond right away, but as they walk, they jingle their keys. So we know they're coming. And guess what? Unlike most guards who just shove the key in and open the door, because that's their privilege, because they have the, they actually wait outside and knock. I'm here, are you ready? What does that do? How would you like it if somebody just barged into your home because they had a key or into your room just because they could enter? I'm coming. First of all, you've called me, I'm coming. Letting you know I'm coming. And then I even pause and I say, I'm here. You ready? Small thing, big difference. Small thing, big difference. How long have you been doing this? I respond when there's a buzzer and I like to jingle my keys. I like to let them know I'm coming and I like to knock, sir. Is he helping just the guard?  He's protecting himself. He probably doesn't even know he's protecting himself that way. But it's that small thing which is making the big difference because we are all connected. So many of the positive deviants, I wasn't using a microphone, but you could still hear me. So many of the positive deviants' behaviors, not all, some. Many are relational. Act of sitting down. You're invited. What do you think? Holding a baby, turning back. That's the reason why they cost nothing extra. And they're there. There's some people who just figured out a way to do things. Oh, but this would blow your. Mind. Is that a good expression, blow your mind? Sometimes I'm not sure. I wasn't born and raised in this country. Blow your what? Always look at Dr. Dura who's my English expert. Nothing to sneeze about. So that I got. Blow your mind. I've heard the expression blow your horn. I don't know what that means, but. Toot your horn. Anybody here who's been to India? If you are following a truck, and there are trucks everywhere, right? And if it's a Tata truck made by the company Tata, at the back in big bold letters is written, blow your horn, which basically means, you know, just keep blowing your horn as you go. Anyway, I don't think we're talking about blow your mind. So this will blow your mind. So we've talked about what we've talked about opening the door, right? If you think announcing your presence and opening the door matters, how you close the door matters even more. So the prisoners were saying, I love this guard. What does he do? Oh, and he begins to talk. When you enter a prison, and if you're in a maximum security prison, what do you hear all the time? Locks, closing, afterlock. Locks, closing, afterlocks. Locks within locks. That's what you hear, right? So the prisoners talking about what does it do to you if you're the prisoner standing like that in a cage? That is what cells look like. They do. You know why cages are made, right? Whom we put in cages. You think these things don't matter? They matter.  It's like, gee, I'm here. I'm in my cage. I've been put in my place. In a very visceral, palpable manner, somebody has clicked the last door shut for you. So that's what they're talking about. He says, what's normative practice? Shove the men, lock the door, right? Whether they're coming from the toilet or whether they're coming from outside. Shove them in, lock the door. That's normative practice. That's where they belong. Lock them up. There's some guards who, before the last click, say, okay, I'm gonna close the door now. Be well, good night. You think we give those guards a hard time? We love them. Again, you see small things, secret sauces. What's working? What's working when it shouldn't be working? The wisdom is here. The donkeys have been coming and going for years. We didn't even know them. And the Denmark study, it's very well documented. By taking this, amplifying it, they did a lot of simulations so that people could practice, acting your way, not telling people what to do. See if you can lock the door in a certain way.  You're not gonna control that. But be mindful. So I was talking to a physician friend of mine because my wife had a dizzy spell. She was diagnosed with benign positional vertigo, which is a good thing, no? As opposed to, gee, she's got a cerebellum stroke, right? So we had to rule that out by getting a CAT scan, so on. So I was texting a physician friend of mine who was my physician 15 years ago. And in this texting, I was talking about my wife. He said, Arvind, I learned one lesson from you 15 years ago when you were my patient. I got this text from a few days ago. Really? You've been so helpful to me as, you learned a lesson from me? He said, yeah. Every time I would do a procedure on you, including putting my stethoscope, you would say, hey, Mahesh, that was his name. Would you tell me what is it that you're doing? As you do it, would you tell me what is it that you're doing? And I do this of my current physician, too. Would you tell me what you're doing and what is it that you're finding out and the decisions that you're making as you are doing them? It's the same thing, no? I said, gee. And he said, now I follow that practice with every single patient of mine. Whoa, I didn't even know I was being a PD patient. But he's a much-loved, admired doctor. His parents love him, too. His patients love him. Why? Because he just explains what he's doing. Okay, I'm gonna put this stethoscope and I'm gonna listen to your lungs. I hear some deep breaths. Oh, good, good lung movement, whatever. He's just talking. Does it make a difference?  Or we are gonna do a CAT scan. Why are you gonna, what's gonna happen in a CAT scan? You know what? You have no clue. Just the end. Simple, small little things, which can make a very big difference in terms of, so hospitals, educational institutions, prisons are very hierarchical, just by their very nature. Power differentials. So relational issues make a very big difference when it comes to the common ground, as you've seen in these examples. Catalina, we're doing okay on time. You're good? It's 2.20, so we have an hour. Do we need a break? Are you all okay? A little break? Five minutes? Will you stick to five minutes? Will you stick to four minutes and 45 seconds? Okay, go. All right, so welcome to my prison. We've got another 55 minutes to go. So I would suggest do a couple more stories, including two from El Paso, one dealing with teenage pregnancy, and one dealing with diabetes. And both of these were actually small little research projects that came out of the University of Texas, and Dr. Lucia Dura was involved as well as advisor on them. And then maybe the last 30 minutes or so, we'll do a little activity, so you can at least ask the question, what does this mean for my work in terms of the next step? Would that be a good place to end? Yeah, Catalina, you're okay with that? Yeah, so we get into PD applications a little, okay? So, oh, the text is, you don't need to worry if you can't read it. You'll get the slide and I'll read it for you. So I have a colleague who now works at Planned Parenthood in Houston, who actually came for the April conference here in San Antonio. I mean, all paths read to San Antonio, it seems, when it comes to positive deviance. The name is Alejandra Diaz. Alejandra Diaz was a master's student at UTEP, and she one day came to my office and said, Prof, would you agree to be my MA advisor? And I said, well, that's very gracious and very honoring. Alejandra, what is it that you have in mind in terms of what you wanna do? And she said, I'm very interested in the issue of teenage pregnancy. I said, okay, yes, that's an important topic. And she said, I'm very interested in looking at it from this lens of positive deviance that you've been talking about in your classes and I've taken a few with you. And she worked quite closely with both Lucy and I on the social justice initiative. So I said, yes, yes, yes, of course. And then of course you always ask, why teenage pregnancy? Why is this an issue? It's a good question. I've discovered as an advisor, when somebody says I want to do this, like, why? I mean, not because you're questioning their judgment, but why because there must be something deep behind perhaps the statement that they've made. And she said, well, I grew up in this border community. I grew up and I know how difficult it was given what was happening around me for me to stay pregnancy-free. That's a deeply personal statement. And then she said, and I have two younger sisters. Oh, okay, and they're both in high school. And I had actually met her younger sisters because one day she brought them to my office, maybe even to a class. And she said, well, I see that several of their friends, people whom I've known for a long period of time are pregnant. So I really worry about my two younger sisters, deeply personal, no? Anyway, so we, I say yes, we proceed, she does a study. And remember, I told you the question is key. What you're seeing, and I'll read it, was Alejandra's Emma Thies' question. And basically it says what enables because there must be something that they must be doing or something that must be done to them which enables them to find a better outcome. Now in this case with respect to teenage pregnancy. So the question was asked by Alejandra and you'll see Mother Teresa in it, you'll see Gandhi in it, you'll see the notion of the donkeys, that the answers are there, I don't see it, the who done it part of it. And the question, which she took a few months actually because you've got to review the literature, you've got to look at who's at the highest risk because then among those you find who somehow are achieving extraordinary outcomes. So a question was the following, what enables some young age is a measurable variable, no? Latina, ethnicity, you can measure that. What enables some young Latina women, women, yeah, you can, man, woman, who are previously, who are presently enrolled in college which means they, because one of the problems is if you become pregnant when you're in high school you don't finish college, you don't finish high school. You don't go to college. So this is a positive variable that they're presently enrolled in college, no? So are the young Latina women who are presently enrolled in college who come from a poor socioeconomic status background, that's measurable, you would, the literature will show you that they're at the highest risk, whose mother became pregnant, mother or a sister became pregnant when they were a teenager, that's shown to be socialization an important factor. Who are presently in a relationship, I mean, you know, that's got to be the case, you're talking about pregnancy, boyfriend or, you know, have been in one or in several, and who, as per their own reporting, have been pregnancy free. These are all measurable variables. Are the young Latina women who come from a low socioeconomic status, who have a mother or a sister who became pregnant when they were young, who are in a relationship and who, for some strange reason, strange, of course that's not part of the research question, but you know you're asking, who for some reason are pregnancy free and guess what, they're in college. Two variables, no, in terms of what's working for them. You see Mother Teresa, do you see Gandhi, do you see, it's a question that's not asked because you would say, you would hypothesize that if you are young Latina woman who are socioeconomic status, mother or sister who became pregnant when they were a teenager, in a relationship, what would you hypothesize? Very high risk for pregnancy, right? Flip it, no, flip, focus on the question, make sure the question is specific, make sure the question is measurable, because you can do that, you know, if your research are doing studies. So she has a question, her committee approves it, proceed, see if you can find any. So she's defined the problem, go back to the PD steps. Teenage pregnancy rates among young Latina women and El Paso County are high. I don't think this says El Paso County, but that was part of it. That's also a measurable variable. You can even say zip code this, that's a measurable, you know, and you can decide where to set the limit. So committee says approved, go ahead. So now it's like, how do I operationalize this? That's part of this thing. And she operationalized it quite simply. She basically interviewed about, I think it was 764. Oh, don't worry, it wasn't really that much.  How many years did she spend getting her, she graduated in a semester after she started. Because there was clarity in terms of the question. She decided that she would collect data from students at the University of Texas, El Paso, who were women. Does that take care of a few variables already too?  And she had to go to 760. Well, she went to a few classes and she had a six item questionnaire. No happy faces and sad faces, no liquored scales, no, you know, just a simple binary dichotomous variable, yes, no. So two variables are taken care of, the rest are, ye or nay? Check, no. And age is a continuous variable, what's your age, blah, blah. What if you had all six ye's? That yes, I'm young, Latina woman, I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, and I've been pregnancy free and blah. You are a, what if you don't have, what if you have three ye's or four ye's? I'm not interested in talking to you. She is, but she wants to look at the ones who are at the highest risk who've made it work. You see, it's a very simple process. It's an operationalization, and you can operationalize it in a thousand different ways. But this is the simple way in which she operationalizes it. University students, women, and I'm gonna ask them six questions, you just say check, yes, no, yes, no, whatever. And if you've got all ye's, then there's a little thing that says, if you wouldn't mind, if you've got all ye's, would you be willing to be interviewed in form consent, right? So I don't know exactly what the numbers were, but I think she had like 35 ye's, all ye's. So what percent is that, if you're dealing with about 800? 35 out of 800, four percent, four and a half percent. Of the four and a half percent who had all ye's, eight didn't want to be interviewed. So she's down to what? 27, yeah, 26, whatever. And then off those 26, she realizes that three or four have parents or family members who work with Planned Parenthood. They have access to extra resources, right? They're explainables, no? Are you interested in the explainables? Remember, elimination. You're only interested in the improbable, the unexplainable ones. So she's left with 22 who are willing to be interviewed and she interviews them. Do you know what she finds? How do you think I should begin? Would you believe? Well, she found a few things. And she presented this in San Antonio a few months ago. One of the things she found is that the mothers of these 22 young women rarely, if any, had ever had a conversation with their daughters about the issue of sexual responsibility. What would the expert think?  You know, just every moment they're talking about, don't have sex, don't have sex.  Apparently, her research seemed to suggest that the conversations were not in that domain of like, don't do this. But the conversations were more in the domain of finished school. The conversations were not about don't have sex, don't go out dancing. Conversations were about do whatever you need to do, finish school. You've got to finish school. Look what happened to me. You've got to finish school. And that conversation happened multiple times a day. So there was no conversation about don't do this. A few, not every day, but multiple times a day. Remember, mehita, whatever you do. Look what happened to me, I had you. Got to finish school. You got to finish school. You know, this is like the nurse who calls the doctor and says, I know you care about your patient. The wording, what is said, how is it said? Is it don't do this versus do this, finish this? And not just finish school, you have my full support. I'm working hard so that you can go to school, that you can finish school. And that support is also manifested, palpable. So these are not empty words, finished schools.  You affirm it, you validate it, you repeat it. And you engage in behaviors that are supportive. Right, and these are. And what do teenage pregnancy campaigns do? Typically, whom do they target? Young women, don't do this, not good. Why, because that's the problem, right? The problem is teenage pregnancy, so the solution is don't do teenage pregnancy. That's the way we think. What don't they know? Why aren't they favorably disposed? What intentions don't they have? What behaviors don't they practice? You just go down that path. Nothing wrong with that, it's one path. PD takes you to another path. Can take you to another path. Through a systematic data-driven inquiry. Get the idea? So what implications does it have? If you were to say, well, Alejandra's thesis expands the solution space, you know, what implications does it have if you are a interventionist, if you want to design? Basically, it's really not about don't have sex. Yeah? It's about be in school, finish school, have supportive parents, have mothers who affirm that, who validate that, do it repeatedly. Which means any program for teenage pregnancy should include mothers. That's what it seems to suggest, maybe. It's like, really? I mean, why? But they're not the problem. Well, you see, you're looking at the solution, you're finding the solution, and then you see what works. And she found another thing. Another thing, you wouldn't believe. Right? Most of these young women have a man in their life. They all have men.  They had to be, yeah, but it's not that man. Not that man? Yes, not that man. There's another man. Who's this man? It's actually not a father, usually. No, it's somebody whom they respect. And whom they've respected for a long period of time. Could be an uncle, could be an elder brother, could be a cousin, could be a neighbor. Somebody who's been there for them and who has affirmed and validated them at different stages in their life. Who have given them a sense of self-worth, self-esteem.  We believe in you. Really, what difference does that make? In their words, they're saying that having that affirmation, that support, that male role model, gives me a sense of self-worth. That my identity is not tied to me given my body away to. Okay, wow, that's insightful.  Is it just about the girl, the problem? Don't have sex? Well, maybe there's some value in having mentoring relationships. Maybe? Get the idea? So I'm just giving you this as an example. And Dr. Dura has done quite a few studies using, so one of your studies was with medical students. Just give a little one minute. Yeah? Maybe invite her. So can you refresh my memory, Arvind, because I was completely in a different zone? I just, it's new, it's not that I don't remember, I just was thinking about Alejandra's thesis for some reason. Okay, so yes, at UTEP, we are, you could say we're a positive deviant school in that we send a lot of Hispanic students to medical school. So only out of all medical school applicants in a given year, only 8% of them are Hispanic. And the problem with that is that it's not reflective of the actual Hispanic population. And the number is even lower for African Americans. So we decided that even though UTEP is almost 80% Hispanic and is pretty successful or on par with the national average at sending students to medical school, we wondered if there was anything that we could do at UTEP or that we were already doing to improve those rates further. So we were wondering if there maybe are any professors who are doing anything special or any advisors or any groups or any students. So we did a very small pilot study and I wish we had interviewed 800 students like Alejandra but we found emails of alumni who had already gotten into medical school. So the question became, are there any UTEP students who have already been accepted into medical school and who are Hispanic, but you want to add to that more odds, come from a low socioeconomic background and whose parents are not doctors and even better if their parents are blue collar workers. Because one of the questions we had is a lot of times when being a doctor is part of your dinner table conversation growing up, then it's in your world and you think it's possible but many of us don't become doctors or medical professionals at that because we don't think it's possible. It's not in our purview. We think, well my dad was a factory worker so I'm probably gonna be a factory worker too or we tend to follow those paths. So anybody who wasn't supposed to dream big but did, that's who we were looking for and we found that a lot of students, a lot of people did make it into medical school who had graduated from UTEP since the 60s and we thought this is great but we need these practices and behaviors that we obtained to be relevant to our population so we looked at only students who had gotten into medical school since 2007. Out of about 300 names and emails we had a hundred and some complete the survey and from those we found eight positive deviants one of whom did not want to be interviewed. So we interviewed seven and one of the most interesting I think behaviors or practices that came about was by a girl's mother so I don't know how it is here or how you grew up. I went to St. Mary's so I stayed at the dorms so studying was very easy for me. I just, I had a desk and yes I had a roommate that brought a Rottweiler in one time to live with us and a few things that were sort of unexpected that made studying hard but I always had a place to go. This one positive deviant student from El Paso she lives about 40 minutes away from the university so her commute without traffic is 40 minutes and parking, et cetera, if she wants to go to the library it's gonna be an hour of her time so in order for her to study at home she lives with her family, her extended family in a small house so you can imagine that there's always somebody coming and going and there's a lot of distractions and for the MCAT her mom decided to help her so she supported her and she not only put posters up of the different things that she was studying so she helped her kind of decorate their house with visuals for the test but she also put up a curtain in the living room and when it was time for this girl to study the mom drew the curtain or she drew the curtain and everybody else who was living with them knew that this was her time to study and that they had to be quiet just for that particular time so for me that was wonderful because it's a very small thing, the curtain, not expensive and yet it made a big difference it gave her that time and that space and it showed as Irvin was saying how, right? So not just the what but how, what does this do? It gave her the support that she needed it showed that her family encouraged her to pursue this very challenging dream so we had, I can't remember, I can't think clearly I'm having like a memory lapse but there was another student who said that he was a hustler and I said okay, so how does that help you because I said what do you do differently? What do you think you do that makes you a successful student when we interviewed him? He said well I hustle, I hustle, I grew up in a neighborhood where there were a lot of drug dealers and a lot of just crime around us so I would see people hustling and I decided to change in my mind what a hustler was so I would be a hustler of a different kind I was, you know drug dealers and criminals who are very successful he said are there all the time they're working, they have their eye on the next target they're quick on their feet and so he said I take those things I'm quick on my feet, I know where I need to go and so what, I thought okay so how exactly does this play out with you as a student and he said well I go into a classroom and I try to identify the smartest person in the room and I'm gonna sit next to that person so I got, it reminded me of my mom telling me when I was in eighth grade and I was sort of misbehaving that I could use my leadership she called them leadership skills for good not for bad so as a leader you can lead in one direction or in another so she encouraged me so when he was talking about hustling in that way finding the smartest person in the room or finding a study group from the very beginning of your career as a student and sticking with that study group for the next four years deciding what I'm gonna do with my time so everybody who succeeded in this study had one of those I guess not a trapper keeper a day runner of some form whether it was electronic or not but everything was scheduled even family time, even play, even and so everything, Arvin calls this whatever you do you can only measure it against the alternative so what I mean by that is everything was a decision either I'm going to be with my family or I'm gonna study or I'm gonna have a drink and if I have a drink I might feel sick the next day so making decisions based on priorities so the way that they made decisions so yes everybody had a calendar and everything was scheduled but the way that they prioritized those elements on their list was unique so I think we're now at the intervention stage and we're trying to find ways to disseminate these practices or to amplify the study and make it UTEP-wide so I would love to see UTEP has some of the lower graduation rates in the state and part of that has to do with our culture I mean we're not, and I mean culture not in the Hispanic culture but I'm saying we're not in a hurry to graduate in some ways, we have full-time jobs we have full-time families we're not a college town that you go and move to and finish your education quickly so we haven't been in a hurry but it would behoove us in some ways to save money and to do things a little bit more quickly so that we are sure we finish so my question to UTEP students would be are there any students who do graduate on time on time according to Texas standards so four to five years and who are they and what are they doing differently so those are some of the implications of this kind of work in education and you could probably see that in medical education as we've done with the pre-med study so thank you for letting me talk she's so quick on our feet as you could tell my feet needed to rest so it's like all right, thank you Lucia so the point is the following there are lots of different areas in which you can fundamentally apply this approach so what's the problem as long as you can define it it's a tough one it's not a problem of others darkness so it shouldn't be a technical solution yeah I'm gonna flip on the light and you don't need PD if you need to flip on the light if it's a complex problem then such as graduation such as who's entering medical school or who's not what is it that they are doing doing differently what's the difference that's making the difference the kind of things that Lucia was talking about so you get an idea that there's a community of scholars, practitioners who have been dabbling who've been working with the area of positive deviance it's still in its infancy really except for some of the cases that I've discussed here Lucia should I talk about Claudia's work so a very recent graduate of ours, Claudia who's a diabetic type two did a study again asking a very similar question like Alejandra in this case she was interested in you know are there diabetics in El Paso County again looking at all the high risk factors which are not listed here who for some strange reason that wasn't part of the question but who for some reason have controlled their diabetes looking at their what are they H1AC A1AC their A1AC measures over a period of time because that which means they've been tested and so on and so forth and with no or low medication so I think her threshold was 500 milligrams metformin bare minimum you know only take that and so on and she actually did find a few she worked with the El Paso Diabetic Foundation and she was able to find some people you know who were the highest of high risks and who really shouldn't have been managing their diabetes well but for some reason they were so what were they doing you wouldn't believe what Claudia found first thing that she found if you want to control your diabetes the best thing you can do is to disclose that you're diabetic to everybody really that's what her study showed so the best prescription that a doctor can write you really is disclose and he's a really what does that do now he's saying what happened how does what happened make a difference what happens when you disclose when your son knows or when your daughter knows or your grandson or your granddaughter knows when your granddaughter says you're already everybody is engaged in your care that's the simple thing that she found you want to take care of diabetes disclose it to everybody or at least that's what the positive deviants are doing no stigma in fact by disclosing they're saying here I am take care of me I need help you know help me as opposed to not disclosing and then you end up at a friend's place and they've cooked your feast and you are eating and you don't want to and now the friend is watching and saying hey you had a little too much of that let's go for a walk so by disclosure what are you doing you're creating an ethic of care with others that didn't exist you're creating a connection a care everybody's taken care of you best thing you can do it's not metformin or it's not glucophage or you know whatever else it's not disclose because that'll make possible all the other things it's like going to the mountaintop I have diabetes that's the way it is take care of me okay gee that's what we're finding disclose a few other things hand recording what? hand recording of what? your sugar levels you record in your own hand with a date what your sugar levels are what does that do? I don't know what that does they talked about gee when I am recording by hand I'm looking at what the numbers were before so I have begun to I've lost a little bit of weight some people say like 10 or 12 pounds and it may not look as if I've thrown my weight around but I have and one of the things I've begun to do Lucia knows about this as do many of my family members is this heart app so today I have walked 1,767 steps which means I should walk a little more and if I know in real time how many steps I've walked I can walk a little more as I'm doing now if I record things in my own hand I know what my sugar levels are it's like gee I mean you know where have they been? that makes a difference it's like read in the dossier that makes a difference seems to if you record in if you get into the habit of recording in your own hand recording your what's it A1 A1C levels every 3 months oh my god I was at 9. this and then I was at 8.7 and now look I'm 7.3 I need to get to 6.4 basically it's feedback in real time which gives you at every moment it's like the daughters knowing every moment finish school knowing every moment dance move we're just sharing with you some findings one more thing what else they have their glucometers and their diabetic supplies lying all over lying all over what does that mean they are there in plain view it's not hidden in a closet it's there on the kitchen counter what does that do if you have your supplies for testing right there what does it do it's there we have our toothbrush and toothpaste and whatever there and reminds us we have soap there imagine if you had to bring the soap out every time you needed to use it these were the small little things that she found okay now I'm not saying this is going to change the world of diabetes but these are really good insights because they're non-normative disclosure is non-normative recording by hand I don't know and maybe people do it some people do it those who shouldn't be doing it to do it we're talking about those right we're not talking about those who should manage their diabetes well we're talking about those who shouldn't be managing their diabetes but who for some strange reason are doing what they do they disclose when most others don't they record by hand and they leave the supplies you've got twenty minutes so we get into PD application and now is your opportunity to take some steps with me so please rise and we'll end with this so before I end and Kathalina knows about this if you're going to be applying positive deviance to your own work there's a wonderful resource guide everything we've said and more and Kathalina we can send the link out to everybody okay so it's called the basic field guide to the positive deviance approach so what should you do next if you're interested see if you can access this and it provides some ideas on it's a very and Kathalina you liked it step by step it describes all these processes and you know how to get the community engaged and so on so it may have some relevance but what we're going to focus on is this that's the question to you and I want each one of you to think about this question so it's an initial exploration you know in the conversation cafe you had some even more preliminary exploration what is the one complex challenge or challenges that you're trying to solve for which you believe based on what you've heard that the positive deviance approach can be useful for your work let's say for your work and we'll do this in three rounds well actually four rounds maybe three yeah see that's the advantage maybe four we'll see the process is called a one two four all so the first step of the process is one which is self-reflection you're the one you are self-reflecting on this question you'll get two minutes but they haven't started now let me walk you through the process once you've spent two minutes reflecting once I give you the go-ahead you after two minutes the bell will ring and you will pair up with somebody and when you pair up with somebody the same two rules apply find somebody whom you don't know or don't know as well and the person who's standing as far away as possible from you not the person next to you simple you will be in a pair and you will have how much time six minutes we may cut it down to four we'll cut it to four I'm looking at you you're saying now four is enough you've done so much talking so two minutes for self-reflection four minutes in a pair which means you can share with the other person which means you get to hear one more person at least talk about what challenge they're thinking and then the bell will ring and you will get into a four so two pairs join together so your pair finds another pair and we'll remove that ten minutes and make it six, how's that? I'll change the numbers there see, it's a flexible plan two minutes for self-reflection four minutes for pairs and then you get into a group of four and in the group of four something changes in the group of four you don't talk about what you have already said in a pair you narrate what you have heard oh my god you've got to be awake in that pair conversation yes so what will happen is you will have heard not just you yourself articulate how you can apply PD but you would have heard three other people's ideas you'll go home with at least four ideas and then if we have time we may not so two four that's six and six twelve yeah we may have time we may harvest one or two you know we may say okay in this group we may ask what was one idea that you think everybody wants to hear if we have time get the idea okay so your self-reflection two minutes begins now think about this when you hear the bell get into a pair and I'll change the timing here two minutes have begun so for the final wrap up in the next five minutes for the final wrap up in the next five minutes we encourage you to please take your seats as you have so we are not going to harvest what ideas there were but at least each person uh... was privy to you know four ideas their own and three more and so this is sort of a time to bring uh... our session together our day together as uh... it has progressed uh... to a close and uh... I will just close it uh... with uh... as they say always close with Robert Frost sort of makes you look good now ride the shoulders of uh... Mr. Frost so uh... Frost uh... these are his words we dance around the ring and suppose especially if you're an expert we dance around the ring and suppose and the truth sits in the middle and okay thank you thank you if you were to rise and to applaud the way you applauded you must have brought so much of you into this conversation so I thank each one of you to close we always close with you uh... and applause is a good way to close uh... I for me but uh... uh... we will close by me randomly not in any random but actually maybe in some order I'm gonna walk up to five people and they'll have a sentence they're closing sentence for what the day may have meant for them and if I walk up to you we will end with five sentences all right so let's go here first what resonates with me is it's about relationships Jennifer uh... for me what I took from today is it's really about looking at things in a different way and reframing what has been taken into our heads over and over and over again and seeing it from a completely different perspective and not the negative aspect but the positive thank you, your name Heather Jo, thank you I think what I hear is that it's a good thing to take off in the direction that your heart leads the direction that your heart needs and the name is Vanessa, thank you be an outlier be an outlier and the closing word to my friend who was born in Vietnam for me it's paradigm shift all right, thank you, we closed it


Hi friends, welcome back to my channel and welcome if you're new here. My name is Jen. I'm a certified weight loss and nutrition coach and I'm on the WW personal points plan. It is Friday, so happy Friday friends. It is a weigh-in day. We're going to go over the WW workshop topic. I'm going to share with you how my second week or my first full week was on the new personal points plan. And we're just going to chat all about our week, the topic. And of course, I'll be sharing my weigh-in.  And if you're new or you haven't yet subscribed, I would love to have you here. Hit the subscribe button and don't forget to click the bell right next to it so you never miss a single video. We do this weigh-in thing every single Friday. Check out the description box down below for my four recipe ebooks. They are all released now. They each contain 15 recipes, including calories, and they are only $15 apiece. You'll find those over on my nutrition coaching website, along with personal macros and calories, and one-on-one coaching if you would like to talk with me directly. Links, discounts, to all my favorite things. And of course, don't forget to come on over, join us on Facebook. We'd love to have you. We are 20,000 members strong and growing, so come on over and join us. So let's jump into my week, the WW workshop topic. And of course, this week's weigh-in. So it is actually Thursday when I'm filming today's video. You, of course, are seeing this on Friday. And while you're watching this, I am currently away for a couple of days for my birthday, my husband's birthday, and our anniversary in a place called Leavenworth, Washington. It is this cute little German village that they totally decorate and deck out for Christmas. It's really fun. We actually go every single year. If you didn't know, my husband's birthday is November 17th, mine is November 18th, and we got married on his birthday November 17th. So every year we celebrate all three things in one little trip to Leavenworth. This year, I'm actually vlogging the trip, so you'll be able to see what we did on our trip, lots of fun video footage. You'll get to see the town, the Christmas lights, everything we did on our trip. So stay tuned for that video coming out shortly. But while you're watching this, we are away on a little getaway. So I ended up having to weigh in one day early, which is completely fine. Still should give me pretty accurate results from my first full week on the new personal points plan. Now, last week I was on the plan for four days before I weighed in. This week it's been an entire week. So we'll see how those results pan out. But before we do, let's go ahead and jump into this week's WW workshop topic. And this week's topic is how to grow. Yes, grow your personal points budget. As you probably know, there are not one, not two, but three ways that you can increase your personal points every single day. I shared a lot about this topic in my three videos that I've put out about personal points. I'll go ahead and link all three videos down below for you. That should answer a lot of your questions. But we are going to dive a little bit deeper into the three ways that you can earn back points.  All three of these ways to earn back points focus on healthy behavior and help gravitate us towards healthy food choices. They also focus on overall wellness and health when incorporating water and activity. So you may be wondering, how do I earn back points? So way number one is by drinking your water. You have to drink at least 60 ounces of water to earn one point. This is capped off at one point. So even if you drink more than 60 ounces of water, you're only able to earn back one point. Now you may know that I drink a gallon of water every single day. So even though I drink double what is recommended, I still only earn one point. So the best thing to do for water is to create a routine.  I put some fresh lemons or limes in there and I pop that into the refrigerator so that I have nice cold water all day. I also can track my water by using the gallon water jug that is marked with time. So I can make sure that I'm on track for drinking my water. And I also know when I've actually consumed an entire gallon of water. I will link my gallon jug and my half gallon junk down in the description box for you. But I find that's a great way to not only measure my water, but keep me on track for drinking my water. The other way you can earn back points is to eat non-starchy vegetables. So for every cup of non-starchy vegetables that you eat, you have the opportunity to earn one point. Now this is not capped off.  It has to be one cup of vegetables for one point. So maybe you have half a cup of broccoli, half a cup of carrots. That equals one cup, which then earns you back one point. If you want to know how to track your vegetables, I recommend that you watch my Q&A video because I go into detail and pop up images on how to track vegetables in the app. And the third and final way for you to earn back points is to move your body a little bit more. How many points you'll earn back depends on several factors.  The heavier you are, the more calories it takes to do physical activity, so the more points that you're going to earn back. So everybody's activity point bank is going to be different. So yours will be dependent on you and your body. It also depends on the activity that you're doing. Some activities you burn more calories at than others, so you're likely to earn more points for those activities. All of your activity points are deposited into your weekly points. So you can use those weekly points however you choose, but you will earn points for doing physical activity. I know I had some questions and I know that a few of you have thought that what if I earn back these points? Are these extra points I'm earning going to make me gain weight? This is actually a myth and here's why. Here's the truth of the matter. Your budget is designed so that you can add and spend points and still lose weight. WW spent months upon months testing out this new program. All the facets of the program and it was proven over those months that even by adding points to your daily budget, people were still losing weight and being successful and a lot of people have lost more weight on personal points than any other plan. It also is positive reinforcement for making good food choices for drinking your water, eating your vegetables and moving your body. It helps you make good food choices. It helps you make good lifestyle choices and choices that are sustainable while you lose weight and when you reach your weight goal. So think about how many points are you going to earn this next week and how are you going to earn back those points? Is it with water, vegetables, activity or a little bit of everything? I have to say that I like this feature of the new program. I know that there's a little bit of controversy on whether it's developing healthy habits. The premise behind earning back points is to develop healthy habits to make you drink your water, eat your vegetables and move your body. So whether or not you take advantage of this feature of personal points, it is there for you to earn back points to choose more healthy foods throughout the day. So now let's go ahead and jump into this week's weigh-in. Like I said, I am out of town now but prior to my trip, I had a great week. I worked out, I moved my body more every single day than I ever have before. I was more mindful of how many steps I was taking every single day. I even pulled my calf muscle at Jazzercise and still continued to work out and still continued to move my body. I drank a gallon of water every single day this last week and I made good food choices when it came to my vegetables. So I feel like I did a great job working the personal points program and like I mentioned last week, I'm really liking the program. I feel like I am always full and satisfied where I was always hungry before on previous programs. I don't really feel that way now. I feel more satisfied than I ever have which is really, really exciting especially when you're trying to lose weight and you're in a calorie deficit and you're always hungry. So so far so good. I'm liking the program and my body's liking the program. When I stepped on the scale today, I am down another 1.1 pounds. I lost 1.2 pounds last week on the personal points plan and again I am down an additional 1.1 pounds. So I would say that it's working. I'm enjoying it. I have to say this is my favorite plan that I've been on for years and years. I really, really like the new personal points plan. So now I want to hear from you guys. Let me know down in the comments how you're liking the new plan, how your week was, did you gain, did you lose, was it what you expected and what are you doing to earn back some extra points every single day. Thank you guys so much for watching. If you enjoyed this weigh-in, give it a big huge thumbs up. It really helps out my channel and of course it means a lot to me and if you're watching and you're not subscribed, we would love to have you here. Hit the subscribe button and click the bell next to it so you never miss a single video. Check out that description box down below for my recipe ebooks, nutrition coaching, links and discounts to all of my favorite healthy things and of course come on over. Join us on Facebook. Happy Friday friends. I hope you're having a great Friday. I hope you have a great weekend and I will see you in tomorrow's grocery haul. Bye.


So hello and welcome to Ask an Archaeologist. I'm Sarah Kansa, the host of today's show. Ask an Archaeologist is a series of live-streamed interviews co-hosted by the Archaeological Research Facility and the PVA Hearst Museum of Anthropology. In this series, UC Berkeley archaeologists and others who work with archaeological materials discuss their research and answer audience questions. For those of you joining live today, you may ask a question in the live chat box which you should see to the right of the YouTube video. So today we're delighted to have Professor Junko Habu on the show to talk with us about archaeology in Japan. Junko is a professor in the Department of Anthropology at UC Berkeley and an affiliate professor of the Research Institute for Humanity and Nature in Japan. Born in Kawasaki City and Kanagawa Prefecture, she received her BA and MA from Keio University and her PhD in 1996 from McGill University. Professor Habu has excavated at a number of prehistoric Jomon sites and historic Edo period sites in Japan as well as Tule Inuit sites in the Canadian Arctic. Her research focuses on human environmental interaction and long-term sustainability of human cultures and societies. Her archaeological project in Japan, the Berkeley Sanai Maruyama and Goshizawa Matsumori project uses archaeological data to investigate the mechanisms of long-term culture change among prehistoric Jomon hunter-gatherers of Japan around 14,000 to 500 BC. She's authored several books, the titles of which are located in the video description below where you can also see more biographical details. So thank you very much for joining us, Professor Habu. Thank you, Sarah. It's a pleasure. Great, and we're happy to have you here today. And if you just want to start out with your slideshow by telling us a bit about your research. Okay. So as Sarah said, I received my PhD in 1996 and right after that I came to UC Berkeley. And when I first arrived here, I was trained as a hunter-gatherer archaeology specialist. But my position was for the archaeology of East Asia. And for me, to think about how to contextualize my research on prehistoric hunter-gatherer society and early small-scale societies in the context of regional area studies, that was a really fun part. So today I'd like to show the excitement of Japanese archaeology to the people who are listening to this. So my research focus is the archaeology of the Jomon period. The Jomon is the name of prehistoric hunter-gatherers in Japan. They did to about 14,000 BCE to 900 BCE. It's an opportunity to examine short and long-term changes in human environmental interaction. And here in the slide, you can see... I think actually the slides don't look like they're sharing yet. How is this? Great. Okay. So here you can see on the left side is a book of mine titled Ancient Jomon of Japan. And on the right side is a handbook of East and Southeast Asian archaeology. Now, Japanese archaeology is unique in the sense that there are a large number of rescue excavations from the 1960s on and that provided us with excellent data sets to allow us find archaeological patterns. And second, the prehistory and early history of the Japanese archipelago show a highly unique trajectory, which is quite different from those of many other parts of the world. Specifically, the Japanese prehistoric sequence is characterized by one of the earliest pottery traditions in the world. As you can see in the... I have to get back to my slide. I pressed a wrong button. Can you see? Yes. Okay. Sorry. So Jomon and the gatherers are known for their use of very well-decorated pottery like this. And so they're classified as hunter gatherers, but their culture is associated with pottery. So for European cultures, people tend to think, well, is Jomon Neolithic or not? But it doesn't really fit into a conventional idea of the Neolithic to the Bronze Age to the Iron Age. Third, sociopolitical context of Japanese archaeologists inseparable from archaeological practice in Japan. This is partly because during the Second World War, Japan went through an ultranationalistic period, during which the imperial family is considered to have been the descendants of gods. And if you can imagine that under that kind of political regime, it was very difficult to talk about the interpretation of prehistoric archaeological data. After the Second World War, Japan really took archaeology as a tool to understand what really happened in Japan and the ancestors of the Japanese people. Fourth, Japan is a country where ample ethnographic evidence is still present and that they can be used to examine continuity and change in landscape practice from the past to the present. Now, here's a chronology of Japanese archaeology from the Paleolithic period, Jomon, Yayoi, early agriculturalist period, Kofon, the state formation period, and then the ancient period of Nara and Heian, and then the samurai period, Kamakura Muromachi, and Edo period, all the way to the mid-19th century, and then the modern period called Meiji Taisho Showa and Heisei. Now, I talked about a large number of rescue excavations that you can see in this graph that the number of rescue excavations in 1973 was about a thousand, and by mid-1990s it went up to over 11,000. And today it's coming down a little bit, but it's still around 7,000, 8,000 per year. And if I can just cut in real quick, Junco, to ask about that peak and what is that, 1995? Can you explain what's happening there and what happened after? That was right after the bubble economy burst in Japan. So the late 1980s and early 1990s, there were so many construction projects in Japan, and in the meanwhile, the number of academic excavations stayed about 300, constantly all the way from the 1970s to the present. So you can imagine that in this context, with the large number of rescue excavations, the quantity of the data really changed us, the types of archaeological research that we can do. It's not only the quantity, it's the quantity, it's not only the quantity, it's the quality of the data that allow us to do different types of research. Of course, we do academic excavations, and this is an example of an academic excavation. This was a field school project at the Goshizawa Matsumori site in Omori Prefecture in northern Japan, and we excavated at Jomon Pit House. But we also need to understand that history of post-Second World War archaeology in Japan is tied to the history of its rapid economic development and numerous construction projects. The left side of this slide shows rescue excavation of a Jomon site prior to a dam construction, and on the right side is rescue excavation prior to a bullet train line, and there are also a number of excavations associated with freeway constructions. Now by the 1980s, initially rescue excavations were mostly on prehistoric and early historic period, but by the mid-1980s, archaeologists began to do a lot of historical archaeology projects. This is an example of a rescue excavation that I did on the campus of the University of Tokyo back in the mid-1980s, and this was a small rescue excavation project for Japanese archaeology, but you can still see that it's a fairly large site. It was prior to construction, well, renovation of the chemistry building on the campus, and you can see a couple wells here. Well, you can see the other but here, and the building remains here, and the number of underground cellars. And for historical archaeology, we can look at historical maps, and this really helps us to think about the life ways of historic samurai people, also allowed us to look at ceramic circulation and the production. We were able to do chemical analysis of some of the porcelain fragments that we excavated from the site. So main characteristics of Japanese archaeology, here are some of the characteristics that I can see. I have to say the international interaction is rather limited. This means that Japanese archaeology has not suffered much from Western colonialism. In order to Japanese archaeology, you really need to learn the language, but it also means that it's really limited international collaboration and information exchange. Second, archaeology is seen as a study of our own ancestors in Japan, and over there, archaeology as history is seen as part of the scientific discipline. And that is a way to really understand what happened in the past, as opposed to interpret the past from an internationalistic view during the Second World War. Third, the unique nature of the law for the protection of cultural property, which was issued originally in 1950 and revised in 1975. This defines that if any known archaeological site is in danger of getting destroyed, a full area needs to be excavated as opposed to sampling. So this resulted in the large amount of archaeological data, but this also kept many archaeologists busy with rescue excavations, especially in the 1980s and 1990s. As an anthropological archaeologist, I'm very interested in human environmental interaction and conservation of environmental conditions and landscapes. And early site preservation movements collaborated with local environmental movements, but generally speaking, there is a big separation between the archaeological and environmental discussion during and after the 1980s. And this is something that I want to see more collaboration in the future. So with all these ideas in mind, from 2014 to 2017, I had a three-year project titled Long-Term Sustainability through place-based small-scale economies approaches from historical ecology. And this was based at the Research Institute for Humanity and Nature in Kyoto. And one third of this project was dedicated to archaeology and environmental studies. The second part is to think about contemporary society with a focus on ethnographic studies. And the third part is really to put an emphasis on the resilience of small-scale place-based economies and the importance of traditional ecological knowledge in the context of applied archaeology and anthropology. And when I first came to UC Berkeley, many of my colleagues encouraged me to think about how we can use archaeology to think about contemporary issues. And some of my colleagues really encouraged me that archaeology has the great potential to think about sociopolitical issues in contemporary society with a long time span. And I think this is really true with the current context of a fight against the coronavirus and rapidly increasing social inequality and racism. And I think this is especially relevant today. Now, Japan is a country that people may think that Japan is a place. You may think Tokyo and big cities. But when you look at the map of Japan, actually four-fifths of the country is covered with forest and it's very mountainous. The red part is Tokyo in central part of Japan. But you can see that the majority of the country is really mountainous. And you can still see that ethnographic evidence is really rich. And what we can learn from people's practice in rural part of Japan, traditional ecological knowledge, and everyday practice really helps us understand continuity and change in landscape practice. And here are some examples, results of a small-scale economy project use of wild food resources and the traditional food storage techniques in Iwate prefecture in northern Japan. And even though people today they're agricultural farmers, you can really see that the use of mountain resources has a lot of things in common with what we see with Jomon archaeological data. We can also learn from past and present landscape use from practice of lacquer ware production. This is one of the art that goes back all the way to the Jomon period. Evidence of the oldest use of lacquer products goes back to the early Jomon period. And you can see that lacquer production which involves obtaining poison oak lacquer sap, that technique is the basics are pretty much the same as what we see today. And that Jomon example really tells us that this type of practice was really connected from all the way from the prehistoric period to the present. That's incredible actually hearing that. So you're talking about practices that have persisted for thousands and thousands of years. Thank you. That's amazing. And I think since I came to the United States, I was an archaeologist who was interested in Japanese archaeology that really motivated me to study archaeology of the rest of the world and being here that really made me think of the ties of Japanese culture with the landscape. And I think that's something that I'm learning a lot through my project and through the discussion with my colleagues and my students here at UC Berkeley. So that kind of practice is really helpful when we think about our interpretation of archaeological sites. This is an example of an archaeological site, the Goshono site in Ichinohetown in Iwate prefecture. This is near the lacquer sap collecting area that I showed in my previous slide. This is one of the 17 Jomon archaeological sites that are aiming for the inscription of the World Heritage List. One of the great things about Japanese archaeologists, their strong support from local residents. And you can really see that the site is important for the local residents. And to think about the continuity from the path to the present is really important for local people's identity. Are there a lot of ethnographic museums that you can visit, considering how much ethnographic work has been done? Yes, usually each municipal unit and the prefectural units have their own museums and often they call it historical and for history and folklore museums. Sometimes they have two separate museums, but Japan is really big on outreach activities through these local museums. Thank you. So Japanese archaeology has a lot of potential. Here are some of the suggestions for future direction of Japanese archaeology that I really feel that understanding long-term continuity and change in landscape practice can help us think about resilience of food and socioeconomic systems in relation to vegetation, biodiversity, climate, etc. One of my research foresight is really to think about what happens if people focus too much on limited type of food resources. And I'm really thinking that it may have happened even during the Jomon period when people are heavily relying on plant food collection. White food diversity I think is very important whether you are relying on white food resources or environmental management or agricultural practice. And that theme I think is relevant when we think about the problem of monoculture and long-distance circulation networks. Second, we do need more discussion about the goals of archaeological practice and archaeological site preservation. Japanese archaeology has been doing very well in terms of record preservation of archaeological sites. So all the rescue excavations records are available in the form of published archaeological excavation reports, but it also means that a large number of archaeological sites have been destroyed. And this may be the time to really think about archaeological sites excavation and preservation of what for food and for how long and at what cost. And third, possible collaboration between archaeology, agroecology. I'm thinking about promoting food sovereignty and think about ecologically sustainable food production and ethnography and ethnohistory. This is something that I learned a lot through my project in Kyoto by collaborating with scholars in these fields. And I really feel that we need more collaborations with local and of course global environmental movement. Archaeology has a lot of potential to contribute to the kind of discussion of climate change and environmental issues in both local and global scale. And fourth, training the next generation of archaeologists in transnational and transdisciplinary contexts is very important that archaeology has a lot to learn from other fields. And we do have a lot to contribute to contemporary social and economic and political discussions. And for more information, please visit my website, junkohabu.com. Thank you. Thank you for that. But for the listeners, if you have questions for junko, please type them into the chat box on YouTube and we'll bring them, pose them to her.  You mean in relatively consistent ways? In Japan? In terms of archaeological sites? Well, in terms of, yeah, what you find on the sites, I mean the hunting and fishing practices and that kind of thing, that is there a consistency in those as well that you can document over that long period? Yes. Basket making is one of the traditions and in many waterlogged sites, we can really see that basket making was an important part of Jomon archaeological tradition and some of the techniques are continuing to the present. And in terms of food food production, we really think that Jomon people are managing the environment. And we also think that the use of fire must have been an important part to manage the environment, which has a lot of things in common with some of the research at work, like Professor Kent Lightfoot in our program. And so even though they, in the later part of the Jomon period had exposure to agricultural, agriculturalists nearby that these, they continued their practices. And why was that? Was it because they were so successful? Well, part of the issue is, I think, is the landscape that, as you can see, four-fifths of the country is covered with forest and mountains. And if you are in the mountainous area, then really you are heavily relying on mountain food resources. So when I talk to farmers in the mountainous part of Japan, my sense is that acorns were replaced by millet and other types of agricultural practice, but it's fairly easy to replace one type of carbohydrate with another one. And I think the rest of the subsistence strategies really, I won't say remain the same, but the basic structure was still retained. And that's why I think ethnographic research is very important. Absolutely. A listener is asking, is it possible to identify basket-making resource maintenance? We can really look at the basket. Oops, hold on a sec. I'm trying to see the chat, but I can't, anyway. It's okay. I'll tell you the questions. So in some cases, we can identify the types of the fiber that people use. And from there, we can really start thinking about how that must have been part of the cycle of Jomon people's annual calendar. And one of the things that my students and I are very interested in is how different types of activities were incorporated as part of their annual calendar. That people tend to think, well, subsistence strategies, people fished in the summer, hunted in the winter, collected nuts during the fall. But once you start thinking about basket weaving and lack of production, that really changes the seasonal cycles of people's activities. And I believe that they had really intricate seasonal calendar, but also something that was very flexible that gave them the resilience that can adapt to changing environment. And that may be something that we are losing that today, that because we are so heavily relying on long-distance exchange, long-distance commercial network and large-scale monoculture, we may be losing the flexibility. So to learn about the precision and at the same time to learn about their flexibility or prehistoric people, that I think is really helpful to think about the condemnations. Right. And did domesticated animals have an impact also on their subsistence activities?  By the way, in Japan, it's okay to use the word hunter gatherers that because of the nationalist regime during the Second World War period, to talk about the presence of hunter gatherers in the prehistoric period was actually something that was really new in Japanese archaeology after the Second World War. So I'm using the word hunter gatherers, but think of this word as interchangeable as environmental managers in North America. So they knew how to domesticate plants, and we do have domesticated plant remains from Jomon sites, but that didn't seem to have been the major part of their subsistence strategies. And in terms of domestication of animals, there's a big debate about the domestication of war. And evidence indicates there might have been some kind of human involvement, but it's not very clear. And on the whole, animal domestication doesn't seem to have been as important as plant management. Interesting. Getting back to just as a last question, getting back to the rescue archaeology efforts, there's, it looks like thousands of rescue activations compared to like, as you said, hundreds of academic excavations. And it sounds like there's a lot of communication and collaboration among these people. Who's doing these rescue excavations? And how is it that you said that they published and they share the results? Could you just talk a little bit more about how that collaboration works? Sure. Many of them are working for prefectural and municipal governments or archaeological centers associated with each of the prefectural and municipal unit. And the National Organization is not a national cultural properties research institute, I believe, is training groups of archaeologists at these municipal and prefectural units. And there are also CRM companies. And I believe there are more CRM companies in these days. So these are really conducted as part of public project using tax money unless it's a large construction project by a large company. And if that is the case, funding is provided by the developers. So developers pay is the basic principle and they are trained in a very standardized manner. That's great that you have access to that information easily. Okay, so it looks like our time is up. And I want to thank you so much, Junco, for joining us today. This is really interesting to hear about the long history of archaeology in Japan. If any listeners have a chance to, at the end of this show, if you could click on the button to go and give us feedback about this series, we would appreciate your feedback. And we hope you can join us tomorrow. At the same time, for an interview with Bill White, Professor of Anthropology, UC Berkeley, who's going to talk about life at home with an archaeologist, living with an archaeologist during these days. So we'll see you then. And thank you again, Junco. Thank you.


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