Tommy here for more systems and Western Digital admits 2TB to 6TB WD red NAS drives use shingle magnetic recording. And there's going to be some more updates to this article, I'm sure. This is what it stands right here on April 18th of 2020. So if you want to learn more about me and my company, head over to LawrenceSystems.com. If you'd like to hire short projectors, a hires button up at the top. If you want to support this channel and other ways from affiliate links down below to get your deals and discounts on products and services we talk about on this channel. Western Digital, what are you doing here? These are NAS drives. You shouldn't be using SMR. Alright, let's start with what's SMR and why is it something you shouldn't use in a NAS system. So this is a great article over at Blocks and Files. I'm not going to read all of it, but we'll cover the basics. So Blocks and Files, can you contrast conventional magnetic recording and the SMR rate process, the shingled one? And what they show here is this is the goal to get more and more data on the tracks. How do you do that? Get the tracks closer together? Well, they can only go so close, but maybe they can go closer if you did something a little bit different. It turns out if the blue represents the right tracks and the read track is in red, so you have to push more to write, but less to read it. So I can read a narrower track, but to get that track laid down is wider. This is kind of a neat way that it's exploited and it's referred to as shingling or shingled overlapping tracks. So what they do instead of leaving enough distance between them, they overlap the tracks a little bit. This is rather clever, but the way this has to work. Essentially, unlike conventional drives, an SMR drive puts a lot of logic and distance between the interface and the actual platter. It's far more like an SSD in many ways, only much slower. SMR disks have multiple levels of caching, DRAM, then some CMR zones, so they do some conventional writing, and finally the shingled zones. In general, right to the CMR space, and then the right, when the disk is idle, the drive will rearrange itself in a background, tossing the CMR data onto shingled areas. There might be 10 to 200 shingled zones. They're all open, appendable, like SSD blocks are. If a sector within a zone needs changing, the entire zone must be rewritten in the same way and SSD blocks and zones can be marked and discarded as trimmed the same way SSD blocks are. It's an important sentence, and you can read all the other details to dive into some of these, but obviously where the concerns are is the pause and delays that occur. Now, these work fine in terms of cold storage.  This is a good use case for SMR, where SMR fails is an arrayed system. That fact that you have to reread the block, throw it up into cache, and rewrite it back causes problems. Now the drives are kind of a mix of CMR and SMR. So you're thinking probably those right to CMR, and it rearranges in the background. That's great when you have enough space as these drives fill up. So if you have a rate array, and you have a lot of data on there, and one of those drives fails, that's where everything goes wrong. What it's going to do is start pausing it more and more, trying to do that rearranging in the background, because it's got to get the data over to a shingled area for better storage, and find the time to do the writing on the CMR with a drive kind of working as much as it can, as hard as it can. And the way a rate array gets rebuilt or resilvered when one drive goes bad and you replace it, is it starts building parity, kind of like in a random poll order almost, and starts rebuilding all these tiny little reads and writes to reassemble it. Well, if it starts pausing a lot, the rate array, whatever's managing it, ZFS, or in there's more than one device are talking about here, Synology has issues with this as well, really any type of rate system is going to go, nope, I don't know why this drive is pausing, it must be bad, and now your drive may or may not get rebuilt, or it'll get rebuilt at an extremely slow pace. So this is obviously of great concern to people who built these rate arrays, and why they should have never been used as a NAS drive. And there's some double talk going on with the folks over at Western Digital, and trying to figure out which ones, for example, this note here, just a quick note, only the only, this is from Western Digital, SMR drive that Western Digital will have in production, our 20 terabyte enterprise hard drives, and even those will not be rolled out into the channel. All of our current range of hard drives are based on CMR, conventional magnetic recording, except for the brochure says right here, this is an UltraStar HC620, and it says right here, SHR drive and key features, SMR, they're telling you, it's on the drive. So Western Digital is either misinformed, confusing, or just some double talk because when they see in the channel, they may be referring to something very specific. And then of course, Western Digital also says they're usual of, we plan to support our customers and we think these drives are fine, but there's enough discussion and there's enough things going on to try to figure out what the real issue is, dive into it and sort it out. So here's the Synology Forum links, I'll leave a link to this because there's a lot of different discussion forums that they kind of jump back and forth between so you can dive into and figure out which ones might be affected, if yours is affected, if it's risked or not. And it does sound like, and this is this article has been updated to include some other companies that may be doing it as well. And it's going to really take a lot of people over on the SMART mon to try to determine what the commonalities on these drives are to determine it. And why isn't it just a flag? Well, let's dive into that a little bit. So what happens is the SMART mon utilities is not like these companies, Western Digital or really any drive company gives us these wonderfully clear maps that are drives. No, doesn't work that way, generally a lot of reverse engineering to try to determine what a flag means. And how do you even find that information? Well, you find that information by running a smart control and pointing it at one of the drives. This happens to be a free NAS system I have set up. And we just dumped all the data out of the drive that SMART mon can see. And what you have is device or vendor specific log device or vendor specific log. There's different addresses that they pull from to read these things out. Some things are easy and they understand what ID number matching it to this drive and understand what these things mean so they can convert it to information. There's some things they do not have documentation for to convert information. So they go over here and people open up a ticket. And what do we do with that ticket? Well, we have to make some termination of what is it about those drives that has to be found to determine which ones have it. So I could just, you know, include it as a smart function. And this is where the problem lies. All rotational drives with trim support or SMR drives. So that seems like a really easy way to do it. I'll just run the smart tool. And if I find that the drive has trim support, and it's a rotational drive because trim is needed on SSDs for another reason outside of the scope of this discussion. But rotational drive shouldn't need trim. Well, they can use trim. They need trim in order for SMR to work. However, not all SMR drives exposed the trim function. That's where the hang up is right now. So they're trying to determine, like, if there's a flag, if there's a code set on each one of these, because what they're doing is the controller is hiding from you that it's actually using trim. So if you have one, we're not positive or maybe there's not a flag that hasn't been discovered yet that will let people know that they have one of these particular drives and it will solve that mystery of I bought a brand new drive. Why wouldn't it rebuild, which is of course the indicator that some people have been poking around at and complaining about in forums, but not really getting good answers for. So now there's a lot of discussion here. I'll leave a link to this as well, where you can dive into see what drives people have to make some termination. There's more tickets being open where people are dumping, you know, their drive information. And this is really helpful to the developers in the community because what happens is the community, maybe you're a developer working in the working on the smart man tools and writing some of the code for this, maybe you don't have one of every hard drive laying around because it's just not within your reach to grasp all of those. So it's always helpful if you want to join in and help people if they're looking for certain models, maybe you have one of these and you can contribute meaningfully to some of these conversations. That's great. If you're looking for solutions, there's not right now any, you know, one off easy solution for this is something that is still being developed is something that is still obviously being truly tried to determine what other solutions are might be for this. The easy solution, at least from a standpoint of replacing a drive sounds easy, except for the fact that you have X monofamina server. And that does not necessarily work out to a good cost benefit. You bought these already with the word NAS written on them expecting them to work. And now Western Digital is essentially admitting, yeah, that sounds like some of these might be SMR and it should be fine. It's kind of like Western Digital had another statement of we'll stand behind our customers product and blah, blah, blah. All of our WD red drives are designed to meter exceed performance requirements. So allegedly, that's what they're supposed to do for common small business home NAS workloads. And we will work closely with all major NAS providers to ensure WD red HDs and SDs have at all capabilities are broadly compatible with host systems. So we'll have to see wait and see what happens from this, whether not Western Digital offers people replacements, whether or not which drives really have SMR, and whether or not we're going to be able to reliably determine on any of these spinning drives, if that's the issue. And there's a few other things that you can find a few links. I don't know any of the models besides Western Digital or if these are companies reached out for comment. But as of right now, the census articles published, Seagate and Toshiba have also confirmed undocumented use of shielded metting recorded in some of their drives. But I don't really know, we can click on these, but I don't know that they really have clear answers into it. But there's some links, of course, you can do a little more reading on this Toshiba desktop drive still have shingles to do some reading, hopefully you don't have any of these drives if you do, if they're working awesome. But something to keep in the back of your mind, if you have to replace any of them, look and be careful which models replace because a re-silvering process of adding that new drive if you used one of these drives to re-silver on it could cause you a lot of drama and a lot of untold hours of headache trying to figure out why your radar won't rebuild. Thanks. And thank you for making it to the end of the video. If you like this video, please give it a thumbs up. If you'd like to see more content from the channel, hit the subscribe button and hit the bell icon if you'd like YouTube to notify you when new videos come out. If you'd like to hire us, head over to laurancesystems.com, fill out our contact page and let us know what we can help you with and what projects you'd like us to work together on. If you want to carry on the discussion, head over to forums.laurancesystems.com where we can carry on the discussion about this video, other videos, or other tech topics in general. Even suggestions for new videos, they're accepted right there on our forums, which are free. Also, if you'd like to help the channel in other ways, head over to our affiliate page. We have a lot of great tech offers for you. And once again, thanks for watching and see you next time.


The study analyses long-term and seasonal trends in the streamflow and water quality of the Guanting Reservoir Basin using a seasonal trend decomposition method, revealing that human activities have caused a decrease in streamflow and an improvement in water quality. The results suggest that for rivers with a sharp decline in streamflow, water pollution control measures can significantly improve water quality. This article was authored by Peng Cheng, Xu Yongli, Jing Jiangsu, and others.


QuickBooks desktop 2023 short-term investment sales and gains recording Support accounting instruction by clicking the link below giving you a free month membership to all of the content on our website Broken out by category further broken out by course each course then organized in a logical Reasonable fashion making it much more easy to find what you need than can be done on a YouTube page We also include added resources such as excel practice problems PDF files and more like QuickBooks backup files when applicable So once again click the link below for a free month membership to our website and all the content on it Let's do it within to its QuickBooks desktop 2023 Here we are in QuickBooks desktop get great guitars practice fire. We started up in a prior presentation We're going through the setup process. We do every time maximizing the home page to the gray area view drop-down We got the hide icon bar open windows list checked off open windows open on the left-hand side Reports drop-down company and financial profit and loss P&L Let's change the range from 010123 to 1231 to 3 and then we'll customize the report Going to the fonts and the numbers to change the font bring it up to 14. Let's say and then we'll go Okay, yes, please and okay, and we'll go to the reports drop-down again company and financial balance sheet And then customize up top change the range 010123 to 1231 to 3 Fonts and the numbers to change those two to 14 Okay, yes, and okay. That's the setup process. We go through every time When we first set up our get great guitar company files some of the first Transactions we put in place our transactions common to a new business Related to the generation of capital the generation of cash Cash necessary to make the purchase of the items needed in order to help us generate revenue in the future The original cash the original capital being spent then typically on property plant and equipment and Inventory if we're in the type of business that's going to be selling inventory Which then can be used to generate revenue in the future Once we have our cash in the business if we get an excess of cash within the business Then we might want to put some of that cash into short term investments as we did in a prior Presentation setting up our short-term investment possibly investing in something like Stocks and bonds or something like that mutual funds and so on and so forth Now once we have investments on the books The next question is how are we going to account for those investments because if we're invested in stocks and bonds for example We could have dividend income from those investments interest income from those investments and the investment might go up or down in Value and the question there would be do I want to adjust my investment to the fair market value? Or do I want to keep it on the books basically at cost for example now before we dive into those questions? I just want to take a step back and think about how Investments might be related to a business a normal kind of business like for us when we sell actually guitars And we might have guitar lessons and that kind of stuff in other words most businesses are not in the business of Financial investment the primary tool for us to generate revenue in most businesses as in this example problem is not through investing and generating dividends interests and Capital gains revenue So the only reason we're putting money into the investments here is because we're putting it there temporarily as a holding place Until we're going to need the money to purchase the things needed to generate more revenue in the business Which will be the fixed assets typically for most businesses and the inventory So just realized that the idea of the business is not to really get an accumulated accumulation of cash Just a pile of cash in the company the goal of the business is to use the capital That's in the business in order to invest it for the goal of the business in this case that being The selling of the guitars So we would be purchasing the inventory and the fixed assets if we accumulate cash And don't need to put it back into the business for the goal the revenue generation Purpose of the business in our case selling guitars Then the thing that a business should typically do is give that money to the owners If it's a sole proprietor then we could give it to the owners And as a draw and then the owner could invest and we could invest personally into other things such as such as Investments stocks and bonds possibly then using tools such as IRAs and mutual funds So that's one thing to just to just keep in mind you want to keep those two things kind of separate now you also Could use QuickBooks for example for your personal investments tracking your personal bookkeeping And you can have a similar kind of problem in that case in that case You might have multiple investments that are tying out to your to your stock and bond Investments in QuickBooks and you would do a similar type of thing You would probably want to be periodically adjusting Your investments in QuickBooks to the fair market value and the reason we do that is because The stocks and bonds it can be easily seen what the fair market value is at any given time given the nature of that kind Of asset as opposed to something like a building or equipment Which we cannot tell exactly what the fair market value of it is after purchasing it Because they are unique in nature Whereas stocks and bonds are not unique in nature. That's the point of them They're all the same and so we can see how much they're trading for on the market and Determine what the current fair market value prices. So if you do personal investments Then you have a similar kind of situation of tracking your your investments and you might want to group your investments In such a way that you can easily tie them out to the to the statements that you might get from your financial Institutions so that you can periodically adjust them easily to the fair market value with adjusting type entries Periodically so you can represent the fair market value in QuickBooks QuickBooks is not a software that you're looking to track the day-to-day Activities of the stocks and bonds typically for that you might use the actual financial Institution software or other software just track the daily changes like you can chart it and excel or something like that QuickBooks is where you want to make periodic adjustments so that you can see where your portfolio stands You know in total periodically at the end of the month quarter year for example Okay, so let's say the short-term investment. We're gonna imagine. What if that investment basically Went up in value. So now we're saying if we invested in stocks, for example, the stock value went up Well, we might say okay, it would make sense for us maybe to Adjust our short-term investment to the new value. So if this went up to two hundred to twelve thousand two hundred and fifty That's the new market price according to the financial statements I would want to increase this to to twelve thousand two fifty or possibly make another account Representing the fluctuations Meaning I can put this in at at cost and make another account which would be a subsidiary account that shows the increases and decreases in the value unrealized gains and losses But either way the question then is where do you put the other side because if I didn't sell the stock then it would be Unrealized so if it's unrealized, there's a couple things you could do one you could say well since I didn't realize it I don't want to put it on the income statement So I might make an equity account down here representing the unrealized gains or losses and the other side would then be on the balance sheet and you'd never hit the income statement with it Until you actually sell the investment, but that that is usually going to be a little bit more complex I won't get into generally accepted accounting principles But but that's one kind of way you can think about doing it The other the easiest way you could do it most likely is to actually go to the profit and loss report and then record The gains and losses even though you haven't realized them by actually selling the stock now You probably do not want to put the unrealized gains and losses up here in income because it's not your principal income You're not in the business of selling the stock Therefore, I'm going to put it down here in other income to show that I would like to get a subtotal of what my income from ordinary income is and then have the income from you know other income and expenses down at the bottom So that's that's the strategy that we will use here And then obviously if you had dividends or interest from the stocks and bonds that would simply be Income that you can report once again, however, I wouldn't report those as Ordinary income because that's not our principal business income. I would report them as other income down below So just to get a feel for this we're gonna imagine that we are actually gonna sell this stock now So we're gonna say okay, we're gonna sell This short-term stock and it's currently valued at 12,250. So we're gonna sell it get 12,250 we're gonna have to take this off the books because it's currently on the books at 12,000 and then we're gonna have a gain that we'll be dealing with of 250 that will have to record now as we do that if I think about my forms if I go to my homepage There's no form. That's really here. That's related to the selling of an investment because that's not a normal Transaction in our normal cycle of our normal business. So then the next question is well Is cash affected because of cash is affected then oftentimes? I'll just use the register and cash is affected because we're imagining that cash would be going up by 12,250 once we sold the the stocks and bonds So I'm gonna go into the register and say and if you are using bank feeds by the way We have a whole another section or course on bank feeds But just to mention them as they might come up if you sold the stocks or bonds and waited till it cleared the bank feed Then we would see a deposit in the system of 12,250 Which we would have to account for which would be unusual in bank feeds And we'd have to you know add it in a similar way as we add the register here So I'm gonna make this as of 0 to 0 to 23 and it's not gonna I don't want to check number So I'm gonna call it a deposit because this is actually deposit I'm not gonna use the deposit form because I'm gonna enter it directly into the register here So I'm gonna say this comes from Vanguard because that's who we invested in and the deposit we got notice We got notice it's trying to memorize the transaction as a payment, but it's actually a deposit So I've got to be in the deposit side of things. It's gonna be for 12 250 that's how much we received now here because it only shows one Line and I need two lines because I have to have the short-term investment go down to zero And I need to gain so I'm gonna hit the splits down here And that gives me this little split so I can now have multiple accounts Entering them into the register still a pretty quick data input field a little bit easier possibly than opening up the deposit form So I've got the short-term investment But that's 12,000 that needs to go down because I can't bring it below zero the memo is gonna be the sale of short-term investment and Then we're gonna have a gain. So I'm gonna hit the drop-down and see do we have any like gain Account that they gave us doesn't look like it. So I'm gonna call this gains on Let's say sale of investment Sale of investment. So this is a realized gain. I'm gonna say tab I want to set it up set it up now I don't want to put it in as an expense It should be an income account so I'm gonna say but I'm not even gonna put it in the normal income I want to put it at other income Normal income would be at the top of the income statement other income will be at the bottom and that allows us to have a subtotal of Our income from normal operations and then have the other stuff which is unusual to our kind of business at the bottom So I'm gonna say save it I'm gonna copy my description up top and just put that here too and that looks good That should do it. So this is gonna D. This is gonna increase the checking account It's gonna take the short-term investment down to zero and record the gain on the income statement Let's record it and say let's go back to the balance sheet. And so now it's gone We can't see it there But I can go back up top customize Advanced and I'm gonna see I want to see all active stuff. So it shows me the zeros That had activity in it for those accounts Here's the short-term investment double clicking on it. So we took it back down to zero because we sold it and Then the other side went to the profit and loss. It's not up here in income It's down here in the the gains on sale. So it's in other income down below So we see the subtotals We've got our total income minus the cost of goods sold gets us to the pit stop along the way of 16,000 615 gross profit minus the ordinary income The ordinary expenses are total expenses that gives us our net ordinary income pit stop along the way And then we got the other stuff. It's not part of our normal business Income which I brings us to the net income total on down below So there we have that and then of course if I go to the balance sheet the checking account Double-clicking on the checking account. We've got the amount that was deposited right there the 12,000 to 50 So I'm gonna close this out. So just realize that if you're tracking, you know In more complex fashion your investments in it in your personal account Or if you have more investments in a business account You're gonna want to group them in such a way that makes sense that you can easily tie them out to the statement So you might want you might not want to have each Individual stock that you're invested in or each individual fund if you have multiple you might want to group them By the company you're invested in such as your bank or vanguard or e-trade or whatever Or you might try to break them out between the stuff you have more access to versus the stuff that is longer term asset like the the investments that are in an IRA or 401k You might put in as other current assets and then you might put everything else That's not under the umbrella of an IRA as the short term as a current asset because you have more capacity to access that cash Whereas the IRA you're gonna need to go through the retirement Get to retirement before you can access that and the goal in QuickBooks Is to try to make it in such a way That you can quickly do the data input and update your accounts according to the statements quickly And your goal is not to try to to try to have too much detail in QuickBooks because that'll make it tedious to update You want the detail most likely and other kinds of software to track the day-to-day activity to see What your best investment strategies Will be generally also just realize that you might use other softwares to kind of help you to to record Like your investments you can connect your investments to To a software like a personal capital has software for example That you can that you can have multiple different Companies that you're invested in that can basically create a balance sheet An ending balance sheet based on the information from the financial institutions And you could use that maybe to update your your QuickBooks Accounts as well That's not a full service bookkeeping system because it's only going to show you kind of like the ending balances But it can be a useful tool for planning and in in that kind of stuff So i'm going to go to the reports up top We're going to go to the accounting and taxes trial balance and let's do a range change 01012 3 to 12 31 2 3 Let's Customize it and go to the fonts and the numbers and bring it on up to 16 Just to check our numbers. Okay. Yes, please and okay And if anything doesn't tie out here, then you might want to change the date See if it's a date range issue drill down on it make any changes necessary We will be going through a transaction report at the end of the second month of operations Which helps us to drill down hone in on any problems


So you're down bad, you're in desperate need of some cash. So what do you do? You go to YouTube and you search, how do I make money online? And of course you get bombarded by terrible advice like doing surveys where you end up making a dollar an hour, super sketchy websites where you end up getting a bunch of viruses. And of course the best one is $1,997 courses on Shopify or Amazon FBA that promise that you'll make $10,000 a month within 30 days. Now, younger Shane was in this exact position and I had a terrible experience actually figuring out how to make money online.  I found a few things that actually work. So I'm gonna talk about those few things that actually work and on top of that I actually did an analysis where I scraped the data from a bunch of different self-reporting websites where people talk about the apps that actually work. The ones where they actually make money and in this particular case ones where you can actually make money within a day. So in this particular video I'm gonna be talking about 10 websites or online jobs where you can actually get paid within 24 hours. And I'm also gonna be giving all of them a score from one to 10 with 10 being the best of course and I'll be talking about important things like whether or not you're actually learning valuable skills, how hard or easy it is to get into it, et cetera. And also with all this data that I scraped I'm actually thinking about making a database on my website that talks about all of these different make money online or side hustle apps and talks about whether you can actually make money from them, what you'd expect to make, like how much per hour would you actually make, how often you can make money and all of those other important factors. So if that's something that you'd like let me know it would probably take me and my team like 300 hours to do this. So it'd be a ton of work. But if that's something that you'd like let me know I'd make it completely free and I just put it on the channel. Also, if that's something you'd want to see in the future make sure you subscribe. So if I do do that, you will know. But anyways, gently tap that like button if you appreciate super valuable videos like this and let's jump into it right now. All right, so first one on the list is going to be gig walk. And this is one that I did see popping up over and over again when I looked at different subreddits such as beer money. Now essentially what you're gonna do here is little micro gigs such as going to a store and taking a photo of the storefront, taking a photo of a product within a store or maybe even like reviewing the product using a photo or a video.  So if you're in an area that's kind of really far away from all the major malls and the major stores probably not gonna be the best for you. But if you happen to be in an area that has a bunch of stores around you this can be pretty good and it can be really easy extra money. So there are tons of people on the beer money subreddit that reported that they were able to make like $25 for instance for a task that probably only took them like 15 to 30 minutes. So this can be a really good way to make extra money right off the bat especially if you live by other stores. Now is this something that you're gonna be able to consistently make an income from? Probably not. It's also not something that you can make a full-time income from. So for that reason I'm gonna give this one a five out of 10. Now I will say this is one where if you combine it with a bunch of other apps that are similar to it you can make a full-time income if you put all of them together and that's why I included it on the list.  This one does and that is another reason why I included it. Now the next one on the list is one that you might already have installed on your phone right now. I know I do and that is iBOTA.  You literally just installed on your phone and whenever you would buy stuff that you would have bought anyways there's a good chance that iBOTA will have it and you just use iBOTA and you make extra money passively. So it literally just gives you cash back on everyday purchases. So not only can you make extra money doing it but in some cases you can also find discounts. So this is basically a super cheap easy way to sort of coupon and couponing is essentially where you like look for coupons and you end up saving a bunch of money by doing that but if you're not careful you'll actually end up spending more money than you would have saved. So I'm not a huge fan of couponing however iBOTA is actually a pretty good app to use and there's literally countless posts on beer money and other forums across the internet of people who have actually saved money by using this. So for instance, this person made $278 in a year using iBOTA. This person cashed out at about $23 last month. This person used iBOTA for about five years and they earned $4,000. This person used it for one year and they earned $400. So yeah, iBOTA overall has super, super good reviews. Lots of people earn money and save money by using it. Now the reason I included this one on the list is there's a lot of people who probably have it in their phone already and they might have even made money on there. And if you ever get into a situation where you need a little bit of extra money you can actually just withdraw from iBOTA and they do pay you within 24 hours. But the reason I can't give this one a high score is because a lot of people on this list are probably looking for something that they need to make money with right now. And so if you don't have iBOTA installed already unfortunately you're not gonna be able to do that. So I'll give this one a three out of 10 money score. The next one on the list is one that you can make money with right away. It's also one of my favorite on the entire list and this is one where you can literally make over $100,000 a year. And I'm gonna show you guys proof. And that is going to be TaskRabbit. Now TaskRabbit is one that I have used myself. I absolutely love it. So for instance, the last time I moved I hired somebody on TaskRabbit. I paid them about $35 an hour plus tips. Plus they got a bunch of free stuff that they probably sold afterwards. Plus I gave them gas money. Plus I ended up giving them free lunch, right? So it was awesome for them and it was also awesome for me because I would have had to hire a fully fledged moving company. And typically moving companies are going to cost you a ton of money because they make you rent the truck for the entire day and they'll typically make you hire two people. So there's usually minimums and the minimum is gonna be somewhere between like $500 to $1,000 just to hire the moving company. Whereas the truth is I didn't have all that much stuff to move. I only had to hire the guy for like half of the day in order to get the job done. And I didn't need all that other fancy stuff that the moving companies require you to have. So this one saved me a ton of time, effort and money.  So for instance, this guy seven months ago said that last year he made $109,000 using TaskRabbit. And he says that he charges about $64 for moving, $65 for heavy lifting and $55 for furniture assembly. And yeah, TaskRabbit is great because you can do all kinds of random little tasks like that and make really good money. And this is one where you can start making money right away and you can even make it a full-time job and you could even build a clientele base and start your own business using TaskRabbit. This is the best one on the entire list in my opinion. It does require physical labor. So unfortunately, if you're not able to do physical labor, this probably isn't gonna be the best choice for you. But with that being said, I'm gonna give it a 10 out of 10. Next on the list is going to be Primus. And this is another one where you can do micro tasks and typically they are going to be in your area. So this can be especially good. Again, if you live in an area with a lot of stores and especially if you live in an area that's a little more high income. So this is another one where you're not gonna be able to make a full-time income, but a lot of the time there will be tasks in your area. And the reason that it's called Primus is because you actually have to go to a place, right? You have to go to the Primacies. So they might have you go to a store, review a product and then answer a survey about the product.  And this is another one where you can actually get paid out within 24 hours, which is relatively rare for these types of apps. So overall, I'm gonna give this one a five out of 10 money score. Next on the list is going to be Course Hero. And basically what this is is a micro tutoring site. So if you're somebody who is already tutoring like you're in college, for instance, this might be one for you to look into. Now, essentially what you do is you are going to be answering questions that people have about their homework assignments. So this is especially good if you are good at a subject that a lot of people are bad at. So for instance, let's say you're really good at organic chemistry. People post organic chemistry questions in there and you're able to answer those for them. You would get points, and redeem those points for money. Now, this used to be especially good a few years ago, and it can still be good with certain subjects, but there's a big problem with this. And that is people from the Philippines and India can answer these questions just as well as people from the United States or a first world English speaking country. But because of their lower cost of living, they can do it much more affordably. So if you're somebody watching this from the Philippines, India, et cetera, and you speak really good English, this could be a good option for you. But unfortunately from the United States, it's not nearly as good of an option unless you're doing it with very specific subjects. So for that reason, I will give this one a three out of 10. Next one on the list is going to be Papa Pal. And this is another one where you can do micro tasks and run small errands for people. Now, this one is especially good for doing small errands. So for instance, there might be an older person who needs you to go grab their dry cleaning and they're not able to kind of like, you know, carry that heavy weight. And it's only like a 15 minute task, but you can get paid relatively good money for it. So you'd basically go grab their dry cleaning, bring it to their apartment and you'd get paid through the app. Now what differentiates this one from the other micro tasks is it encourages you to sort of establish like a community relationship with other people in your vicinity. And they basically do this by incentivizing you and giving you bonuses for actually helping people more than once. So yeah, this is another one where you're not gonna earn a full-time income. It's also one where you're probably not gonna be doing tasks all the time. But if you have it on your phone, you have the notifications on, tasks will pop up and you can make money from this. You also can make money within 24 hours. And it is one where people report all the time actually making money from it. So I'll give this one a four out of 10. Snapwire is next on the list and this is going to be for amateur as well as professional photographers. So this is where you can put your photos up on the internet. People can buy those photos and use it and either paid products or maybe like social media content. And you might be thinking that you have to be a super pro in order to get people to buy your photos. But actually a lot of the time more of the amateur look is what people are going for. And the reason for that is because a lot of the time it's going to be more relatable. And a lot of the time companies will post contests on Snapwire. Let's say they want some like amateur type photography or videography of somebody who is kind of like walking through the park with their significant other. You can put that on Snapwire. They might post a contest on there. And if you win, you'll get paid even more. So yeah, this is a great way for you to get paid to do something that you probably already love to do if you like taking photos like so many people out there do. And yes, you can get paid out within 24 hours. So this one gets a six out of 10. Next one on the list is going to be Uber. And I know a lot of people talk bad about Uber and other ride sharing apps. But realistically speaking this is a phenomenal way for you to make a full-time income. If you get fired from your job, you're in between jobs or you can't find a job. At this point, there are probably millions of people out there that are making full-time incomes from ride sharing apps. Now, this is probably not something you want to do for the rest of your life. It's a great way for you to make money while you're looking for something that's better for you. But all you need to make money from this is to just have a car. That's it. And there are countless examples of people making really good money with Uber. It's especially good on nights where there's maybe an event in your town or a holiday or something like that. So here's somebody who made $347 in a night. Here's somebody who made $600 in six hours. And here's somebody who made $740 in just one night. So yeah, this one, a lot of people talk bad on it. But if you are down bad and you need to make money right away, it's one of the best ones you can possibly do. Of course there's also Lyft and other ride sharing apps. But yeah, I'm going to give this one a nine out of 10 money score. Next we're going to talk about another common one which is food delivery apps. So there's a lot of different food delivery apps out there but we're going to talk about DoorDash. Now this one is best if you have either a motorcycle or a moped. Now you can do this with a bicycle as well but people might get mad because you take a little bit of extra time but it's very similar to Uber. You get to set your own hours, you can do it as a side gig like part time or you can do it full time if you need the money. And this is another one where countless people report making money using DoorDash. So I'll give this one an eight out of 10. The next one on the list is going to be very similar not quite as good as DoorDash but it can work and that is Grubhub. So a lot of the time because of the fact that you might not get gigs all the time people will actually use multiple of them. And this is another food delivery platform. Usually it's not quite as good as DoorDash but you can use both of them to supplement like a full time income depending on the area you live and depending on how busy it is. So yeah, this one I'm going to go ahead and give it a seven out of 10. Now if you're somebody who is down bad you have to make money right away. Some really good options for you are like Uber for instance maybe some of the food delivery apps as well as TaskRabbit. But if you have a little bit of extra time or even if you are making money with Uber you really want to look for a high income skill. You want to look for something, learn that skill and then get an entry level job in it. And there's a free way that you can actually do this where you can audit super high demand jobs by using what's known as Google professional certificates because essentially what happened is a bunch of these big companies like Google, Facebook and IBM identified that there were certain skills and certain careers that there simply were not enough people for. There was a massive supply and demand imbalance. And so they actually created their own certificates to teach people these skills that they themselves needed. And they're not the only ones that need it. There's tons of companies out there that need these skills. And you can audit these certificates for free. And if you choose to actually get the certificate itself which there's a ton of benefits for doing that it only costs $39 a month. So this is a good way for you to kind of dip your toe into a bunch of different super valuable skill sets. And then when you choose one or when you find one that's really good for you you can get the certificate and it's gonna give you a great chance of landing a job. And I actually made a video on the top five Google professional certificates which you can check out right here.


Hello. Good morning. Good morning. All right. It looks like we're auto recording. So that's cool and now I need a couple things. I'm gonna get our agenda out and get ourselves set up here, and I'm sure we'll start probably like three minutes, three minutes after or so. I'm gonna put y'all on mute while I violently type or put me on mute rather. One sec. All right. Hopefully that's the right link and not one of my other 45 million Google Doc things that I have open right now. All right, so that's in the chat. Y'all can put your names on that in the attendee section. That would be lovely just so loving the shower look, hippie. I I dig it. That's exactly how I wear my towel as well. So I'm not alone. I had to go to the store and get the conditioner because I would just wait till the lockdown's over, but I had this big dread that was about this long on the back of my, so it was time. All right, it's 33 right now. I see we've got hippie, Eeyore, Carolyn, Amy, Karen. I think that's, hold on, let me just make sure. Yeah, let's do it. All right. And then, all right, so everybody's got the agenda. All right, I went ahead and did a launch contributor growth sub-project issue, and there is a lot on there and the method behind the madness here, and let me share my screen as well. So, if you have a tab, where are you at? Here you are. Share. It's got a lot on here, obviously, but each bullet sort of represents what I think, you know, in here and just like know from various sources within the CNCF community, whether it's TOC, whatever. Thinking that each one of these will probably be some kind of work stream, and then what would be done for us to launch. So obviously, many things like a read me, who's owning much stream, just some very basic conceptual foundational things right now that we need to figure out so that we can really get moving. So, before I start, do folks want to do intros? Not sure if everybody knows each other. Let's just do intros, just to be safe. Hippie, you go first. I'm looking at, you know, give a brief intro about yourself and why you're here and why you're interested in doing this work. Hippie Hackland, I've been doing open source stuff for a while, and I'm really fascinated by our community's ability to scale and to be inclusive. And I think that what we do here would be really useful in other organizations. And so, particularly the key factor seems to be growing new people into leadership. And so, the strategy that we have for helping everybody start from what is this and what, and to being here, please come join. That's why I'm here. Awesome. Carolyn, I think you were interested most in this working group. Tell the group what's up with you and who you are. Sure. So, I'm interested in two things. One is I like to make things explicit and help support existing contributors and maintainers in understanding how they can make their lives easier by communicating outward to the community about what their processes, how they do things so that there's not a lot of awkward weirdness of like, how do I explain to people that what they did is just weird. And then also protecting themselves and making what they're doing sustainable. And then on the flip side, I like to do a lot of outreach and mentoring with new contributors and trying to make it a really good process to kind of get them working up that contribution ladder and actually defining the ladder so you don't just need to like happen to know someone in order to be a cool person who turns into a maintainer. These kind of things like near and dear my heart like every product I'm on, I kind of do this for every project so I'd love to help with this. Yeah. And then Karen. Hey, so I'm actually on the same team as Caroline. I am a community manager for multiple open source projects. So part of this experience is also just for me to learn because I feel like, you know, the bigger ecosystem has a lot more experienced people who have been doing with stuff and so I'm here to learn and then also I think in a sense bubble up the stuff from all of my teams up to kind of see like what all the different concerns are out there. Yeah. And how many of your how many of your projects are in CNCF just out of curiosity. Oh, um, there's Helm Brigade, Virtual Hubelet, SMI just joined. And then there's like other projects from like sister teams, Kata just joined as well. So, yeah. Cool. I was curious. Yeah, I know. I haven't been speaking out. Good question. And the reason why I ask is it's good to have folks like you even like just join the call because we get to hear what some of the other projects are doing that, like, you know, if we individually don't work with them. So I think your experience is definitely critical here for us, especially in a bootstrap stage. Eeyore and Amy. Hey, we're here from CNCF. Eeyore actually has much more salient things to say this morning about like some of the contributor growth stuff. So I'll let him go. Um, I don't have so much stuff to say here, but as Amy mentioned, we both work at CNCF, specifically myself. I'm used to be the community as contributor for a while and used to work with the community as a contributor experience for a while. But besides that, also help CNCF with our contributor initiatives, mentor initiatives and all the related stuff. And you are awesome. Thanks so much for helping us. This is going to be awesome. We do have for folks that were not on the last contributor strategy meeting Eeyore and other folks discussed like what repos we own, why we own them, etc. We kind of came to this conclusion that the CNCF contributor strategy repo, which is like our SIG meta repo will have things about our processes, maybe our guidance, things along those lines. And then we also have the CNCF contribute repo as well, folks that thought that contributors might see that more. So we should have a lot of documentation for the contributors and maintainers and that repo. So sort of like the division of a policy repo and a procedural repo if you want to put it that way. So just wanted to talk about some of that housekeeping stuff first and foremost in case you were like, what's going on? So we're taking care of a lot of that. We've also been working hard on GitHub management and admin related stuff. Eeyore, Steven, Jared, so many others, Josh to get us all hooked up with some kind of workflow and process and review process and things along those lines for stuff that we're putting inside of our repos. The one thing we do want to make sure of is that we are not like blatantly putting our employers stuff in as guidance, like meaning as the word, if it's in as like as a resource, that's one thing. But if it's in his guidance and we're like saying XYZ company says that you should do it this way. We should just make sure that our guidance is a little bit more what sort of looking for not, you know, non bias or, you know, not, you know, geared towards a company but geared towards us as a group. I think just that we want to be generating and synthesizing our recommendations that are for the CNCF, as opposed to just wholesale adopting one thing from from a company it should be unique to what our own ecosystem and community. Like that's part of it too. Exactly. So just I'm going to shoot I'm going to ask some questions really quick to the crew so if for the folks that have read this issue. Is there anything anyone of these bullets that calls out to you and just remember we got to keep focused that's another priority here because our crew is going to one expand quickly, but to also expand and scope so we just want to make sure that we're actually going to do something right. So is there any bullets on here that really call out to you as far as like I'm definitely able capable interested in working on something there. I mean, for me I'm mostly just said in the contributor ladder and then things like the contributor guide or like the maintainers guide. All right. And then anybody else and by the way, it's, if you don't own anything right now or don't claim anything that's not a big deal I just want to get us going on some of these. Anybody else. I'm happy to help Carolyn on that stuff. One thing that I kind of a meta thing is automation around this and and taking the automation and including infrastructure all the way down to hopefully a base level on Kubernetes. I know that within the kates community we rely really heavily on the kates and for working group, an amazing group of people, but all of that info is very heavily. And so we tend to buy modeling, a Google way, kind of let the world know that that's maybe the only way. I think it would be really cool if we at the CNCF level, we're able to provide things like prow that CNCF that I owe and integrations for all of the CNCF hosted projects, including the way that we automate our community aspects, but maybe put a little of effort of trying to, I mean, I don't know this is just thought that's what I'd love to be to help with is the automation. Currently at this quarter, one of my goals is to bring up proud at CNCF that I owe because the CNCF kates performance repo is where vendors submit their test results, and we want to automate that and say yes you did pass all of these tests, but it's not appropriate for that to go under kates pride at kates that I owe. So it's a good opportunity to start doing that new thing maybe on multiple multi vendors or at least a non non Google even. We might want to go incredibly useful. Yeah, we might want to spin up an entire working group for that. I don't know if it fits into the scope of this particular working group but I think it does all under. Can you hear me I'm sorry was I mute. Sorry. Okay, I'm sorry. So let's talk offline about about spinning that into either its own working group or something where the scope is a little bit wider, I think. For this one I think we should really start foundationally I feel like prow is like a couple steps ahead of what we should try to accomplish at first year. I don't know what anybody else's thoughts are but I definitely think it's it's relevant important and should probably be its own working group. What are some other things. I think some of the guidance and ideas that we come out with for how people can structure their product projects in certain ways will help shape some of the automation actions that whatever we come up with will do by default or have options So I think one process may feed into the next step a lot because we may not do things exactly like Kate's proud as we may decide that we want something a little different or whatever. I have one question if you don't mind. One thing that I've struggled with with my projects is like where manage projects and things like that and I was curious Paris if you had an idea of where that fits in. In various things or just where to get help with that. Is this the right thing for that kind of thing. Like for example, help with using project boards versus other stuff that's out there. I definitely think that could be a part of this project management. It's the only problem that I think with the only thing that I worry about it is we've we've flipped with the word fluttered. I mean, you can also tell you a little bit about this. I feel like we have gotten stuck in Kubernetes land with project management because no one wants to have us say you have to use one tool. It ends up just being this like great bike shed about how to do project management. So I guess if we if we give items, then we should maybe give like options and things like that and not necessarily like one rule of law but definitely I completely agree. I mean, it's one of the ways that we're Wild Wild West still you or do you have contacts there as well. And I can just add here. So the final and we just decided and within the Kubernetes world that everybody can do their project management as they prefer. So every every granular group, every seek and every some context on that they do as they prefer. Like as we do with the sea contributor experience, we have the sea contributor experience boards and we have the dedicated sessions. Working grouping for example, they have their own process and all this stuff. So that that that's how it works in the final and because we we've tried multiple times to bootstrap the unified community wide project management process. And we've just failed multiple times with them with the different attempts and with the different adults. Yeah, I was thinking I don't want to derail. I was just more than you mentioned automation. And for example, GitHub has project boards, but there's no automation for like a new issue is added. There's no good way to automatically have it added to your project board. And those were something that like, if there's bots or automations we're making that can do. Plugable individual things like that that just work with random default tools. It doesn't have to be a like everyone must do this but like, we've got a building block in our proud toolkit. Like, that would be cool but I know that's not really related. So that's what I was getting at. I think that it could be easier now from the automation standpoint comparing that to that where we were like two or three years ago because of the GitHub actions, like two or three years ago getting GitHub actions that didn't exist. And as far as I remember, even the project boards didn't exist. So these days we can we can automate it probably more efficiently. I don't want to say easier, but somehow easier with the GitHub actions, at least we have all the all the available tools, all the possible available tools directly from GitHub, and we don't need to develop something. So probably it's good, but probably it's good on the scale of the community project probably with the current CNCF size. I mean the CNCF GitHub size, we don't need something extremely powerful and extremely complicated as proud these days, but it can be rather. I'd be totally interested, I guess. I put you down here for like, maybe project management guidance. Obviously this can be like a P1 or even two if you want, is that okay with you? Yeah, yeah, because I like where the PM hat for the projects I'm on so like, whether or not that's my jam, it's what I do. Cool. Another issue with the PM stuff that we had that we haven't had enough manpower. So it just was like enough time consuming. So if you can allocate and if you have all the necessary experience with that, it's really awesome because humans and time of will, it was one of the biggest issues again in the past. So it's easier to define and develop the guidelines and find a program, but sometimes it's more complicated just to maintain it in the same way as it could be. Yeah, yeah, I get that. And then let's see, so we've heard from Caroline, Karen, or is there anything on this list? I mean, and it's okay if you're like, no, I'm just here to hang out. Is there anything on this list that you wanted to either take work on or anything or kick off for that matter? I'd like to remind us that I'm working on the contributor repo design and restructure. And like, I'd like to share like their new portion of it probably tomorrow, tomorrow on Wednesday. It's basically the same content, but a bit differently structured easily more easily readable. And after that, I'd like us to also to review it and provide more details on what we're missing here. So the current content is available here at the repo. You can take a look there right now. The things that I'm doing is just restructuring it and making it more easily consumable. But if we miss something there, so please open an issue there. Let me know or yeah, basically please open an issue and let me know so we can incorporate it there. Awesome. And then you are as far as that list to the K-dev that's a part of that restructure as well. I mean not K-dev, I'm sorry, I'm thinking of Kubernetes. The dev mailing lists. Say it again, please. The dev mailing lists work is a part of that restructure as well. Yeah, yeah, because right now they are there, but they're not so visible. So now you have to go to the projects and also structure could be better. So that's that's what I'd like to make better right now. Okay, cool. All right, this is sort of like a meta thing, which is good. All right. And then I think about everybody and then I would mean I'm interested in all of it. So obviously I'll just take what's take what's ever left over and important to us. Anybody else want to claim anything or kick off anything from this list. And we have the AMAs or the interviews stuff. Yep. So this, I'm this right here with this intention. What we want to do with the contributor strategy meeting. So we meet biweekly. So, you know, twice a month depending on where calendars fall. And we're take, we're going to take one of those meetings, we have a dedicated time for at least the last 30 minutes of the meeting and invite all maintainers if they so choose to come for an AMA. And they can ask us pretty much anything they want. So they can ask us about their specific contributor growth related problem issue opportunity, whatever, you know, whatever they want to talk about. So I want to know from this crew one, is that a good idea to should we create a separate time. And the reason why I have been putting on, you know, putting it on to the contributor strategy meetings is because of meeting fatigue. But if we need some kind of separate AMA, like I'm semi open to hearing, hearing thoughts on that. So what are y'all's general consensus thoughts discussion around this idea of a contributor slash maintainer AMA to get help. Right away. Good, bad and different. Do you think you're. I heard Karen and hippie. How much we need that meeting for ourselves because we did pigment as like a time that works for us at the moment. I have a feeling that the majority of our time that we need together is going to be in our sub projects. And so this will be a great use for the larger. Community to be able to connect with the community because like. That's probably important for us actually helping people as opposed to just doing every power work. So I'm all for it. Okay. And the other deal is we're creating a maintainer circle as well, which obviously will produce its own meetings and things like that. So my method, all my methodology to the madness here is like, okay, let's at least get people heard immediately. In case there's like any project out there that's like, really, you know, needing something immediately and then they can tap into like maintainer circle and we can tap into maintain our circle as far as delivering the educational content that we need.  So maybe being able to say the contributor growth Q&A is also maintainer circle or am I just totally misreading this. I think you're misreading this maintainer circle will be much more in depth. And we're talking about 1000 maintainers. They want to do many circles they want to talk about burnout they want camaraderie. So maintainer circle will be focused and that's where we can also deliver webinars and our presentations and things like that. I'm concerned that if we did that then we wouldn't have a meeting period. Meaning like we wouldn't be able to meet about the stuff like the ivory tower stuff. Oh, sorry. So maintainer circle. It's important to have it a little bit separate from the wider community, because maintainers often everything you do is transparent to the point where it's really difficult to have frank conversations where you can be vulnerable, and feedback from other people who don't need something from you, but can be there to support you. And so I think it's important to carve out that space for them. And instead of trying to make it something where it's open to like a wider group of people were like the random public for example, the helm users may show up to where the home maintainers are trying to get support from other maintainers because it'll be very difficult to talk about things that are important to them when the people who need their help and are asking for things from them are going to be listening in if that makes sense. So it kind of does need to be a really separate space, in my opinion. All right, so I'm just taking some notes on this issue. I mean we pick on how this is the big one, but you know. Any other comments about the AMA. And then speaking of like webinars and presentations and stuff like that. I wanted to see if I'm going to create a separate issue for this one in particular, but I wanted to see if we could start crowdsourcing the work that we've already done. So like I know Carol and I know so many of us have done like talks on like, you know how to contribute, what you know what it means to be a maintainer, stuff like that. And let's just start crowdsourcing it. And then what we can do is we can do a review period and essentially deliver on some of this and say that that this is kind of like a service, like saying hey we can come to your project and review either these workshops trainings or we can just stand them up on our own. But we have such a plethora of information amongst this career right now that it would be a shame for it to for it to just like hang out there in the ether. So I'll create a separate issue for it. And then what we can do is just add some of our resources. Is that cool with y'all. All right, yeah and then same with you hippie if you've got like any automation talks or like anything or or even how about this even other people that you've seen give talks. That's also, you know, cool too, especially if they could probably come in and do it here they don't necessarily need to be a part of our crew. A lot of people would probably think that's cool. So we can also solicit folks. All right. And then we've got recruiting contributors this is part of this is kind of like a recruiting playbook almost that I was thinking about where we talk about how they recruit where they recruit how they communicate that this seems to be a really, really hot topic amongst TOC members at least and GB at least that's why I hear from Matt Klein. So I'll just sacrifice myself and put myself there but if anybody else wants to work on that that sort of falls in line with you know some of the other stuff we're doing with the like ladder and templates and things like that but it's not very direct. You know the goal here is to get contributors and maintainers to be more direct about what they need. Anybody else interested in that. Yes. That was your book when you're done. Thanks. All right. And then this sort of falls in this one right here on the net this next one here role handle of role handbook templates building roles outside of the usual contributor ladder. So this is kind of like, maybe I would say P one to two, I would actually say it's P one, meaning like let's do the contributor ladder work for work first, because that's sort of the really key roles there, which are like maintainer approvers, things like that. Does anybody else. This is called anybody. Once works that. Can you explain a little bit when you say building roles outside of the usual contributor ladder. What kind of roles are you thinking in your head because when I hear I may be thinking something different. So in Kubernetes we've got I think six teams now. And each one of those teams is different than the contributor ladder ones the release team. So obviously Karen did the communications manager role and that had that produced a rollbook. This is a way to get people to think about succession and also all morning. So we also have the contributor summit events team they've got the lead they've got a content person that we also have an API review committee and each one of those people in the committee has a role. So like they review API is and stuff like that to come in for certain things, you know, each one does anyway. And then they're advising guidance is like a whole as a committee. Things like that, that people really only because I think in open source we really only say a contributor is a member or a contributor is a reviewer. Like, I feel like I can hear that a lot right. But this is kind of like this borders that like code non code contributor not contributor but like we're actually making them roles. So, um, that's that can be set off at, like I said, at, you know, after we have some momentum from the contributor ladder though. I think this is really cool. I just, yeah, we have to be after the other stuff. Yeah, yeah, the contributor ladder is like a P zero meaning it's like you need that in order to grow your other areas. I feel like that's like you have to describe your your core area before you can describe your other areas in my opinion or put me on with that. Okay. I'll help to. If you need it, you already have two people. No, we have experience with this Karen. So you have to do with us. Sorry that case that takes care of everything we have in the queue thus far. I listed what's done, but what is done for this issue, but does anybody else have anything now that we've talked about this for like 20 minutes. Is there anything that's glaringly like I cannot believe it's not on this list related to remember related to contributor growth. We've got a governance sub project going we've got some other thing like maybe even have this automation sub project with could be going anything that really relates to that. I have one thing that I know is going to come up, especially for people in the Kubernetes group, which is when they're looking for help as our SIG ramps up is if we could just have something somewhere that is written down that says, come here for come to us for these things and go to Kubernetes contributor experience for these things. Um, because I was just going to ask you Paris. You know what I mean, or just it's just going to clear it may be nice just to like go like maybe in like in the inside of the read me. Yeah, yeah, let's just say I'm a real quick upfront. Because as we try to drive some people to our, our SIG and the output of our SIG, I think that'll be a question for that larger community. Yeah. It'll be like the treaties or anything. Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you. Anybody else think that anything's missing. So in this issue will close and will be officially launched once we have something a little bit more descriptive in the read me. We already have actually we already know what I'm going to edit this. We do know who is owning what now. The first thing is that we accomplish and send a note to the TOC and the maintainer group about our AMA, which is a little bit meta meta about us. So let's talk a little bit about this. What's the first thing we accomplish look like and the definition of done for things. This does not and should necessarily not be answered now unless you know folks immediately have some things that come to their head. So we just burst and start digging into and start digging into some of this stuff. I think we're going to see what done looks like maybe in like the next week to two weeks. And anybody have any initial thoughts on this. And do you think that we can deliver something in the timeframe meaning something, whatever that something is, do we feel like we could deliver that. Let's say within the next three to four months. Yes. Yeah. I mean there's always going to be a lot of like iterative work on what should be in there and obviously if I think we're talking the standard months, we can do it. Yeah. Okay, cool. I mean, I hope we can get one of our P zeros. I don't know which one. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, let's actually we did we identified some of the P one. So I feel like this one is P zero and then this one's probably P zero. And then if we're, I'm just doing little teeny notes here. I'll, I'll make them better later. Okay. All right. So it looks so we've got the templates are just our crowdsourced what we already have. They have as a collective body and the contributor ladder building as P zeros is that in agreement with the crew with what we should be working on first. Looks great. All right. All right, and then we do all of this. I think we can honestly like I'm and that's why I put it in the issue on I wouldn't have put it in here unless I think we can accomplish it and I really like with this crew and like just the plethora of experience that we have with the contributor strategy grew. I'm really feeling positive. Oh no, I'm not being sarcastic. I'm saying I can't wait to see all because it'll be amazing. It'll be great to see all this in one place for people as a resource. All right, let's try. And then I do have some conversation we can you want to start on some P zero conversations just get right rolling into it. Or no. All right. Let's talk about the templates because this is one of the ones where I don't think we actually need to start from scratch this is another area where I feel like there's a ton of prior art and let me show you what I mean I'm actually going to stop sharing and share another screen. Hold on. Where is it here is cool. Here's one. Here we go. Share. So this is a template for writing contributor guides based on research of like 40 different projects. So this is a really cool I think resource for us talks about just how to get started and like what the template is which is right here. And what we can do is we can review things like this and we can either make changes to it because not yet. It's okay with PRs. We can also turn it into our own thing meaning we can like med lib some cloud native words in here and make it like, you know, again PR that into ours as a contributing markdown template. What do y'all think about that. This is something that we can review. Let me put it on our issue too. And then there is another. There's another resource as well. Let me stop sharing here again. And it's called the good docs project. And they have a, they have stuff related to contributors. So here's my issue. Here it is. All right, comment. And then I'm going to share my clean again. So here's the two links in the issue. So y'all can take a look at those. My, my idea here is we can collect, like I said, collect, let's collect a bunch of stuff that already exists. And then analyze it. Does anybody know other, other good resources off the top of their head or that they can include here. I'd like to look at those first to understand the differences between some of the, I don't have like generic templates, but I've seen some ones that I found really helpful on other projects. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's the exact thing we should do include anything that you think looked really good. I think that was impressive. Karen, you too, like if you've seen stuff when you're out and about that's really impressive. Nafya's has stuff that's probably not cloud native. I think the 40, when I did, when I did some digging, I think the 40 projects that she analyzed. I think one of them might have been Kubernetes, but I don't think so. That's what I'm saying. It might not necessarily, some of the stuff might not be relevant for us. Some of it might. So let's take a look and we can do an analysis. We can either pick up an issue or meaning an issue that talks about what's good and bad or we can do like a Google doc if you don't are some other kind of collaborative doc if you don't want it to be public yet. Yeah, I think it may be a little sensitive to speak about other people's stuff where they wouldn't see it because I think it'd be kind of hurtful.  I would love it. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't matter. I'm open with whatever you want to use totally cool. Oh, it would be Google Docs. And yeah, we can start on that. And then I think what our definition of done would probably look like here is maybe a nice, you know, template repo kind of like this.  So that's kind of what I'm envisioning here for our repo anyway, so people can come in and get what they need as far as documentation for contributors quickly and, you know, without worry. All right. So I mean that's really it for today I thought we were going to take a whole hour and do that but I think it sounds like everybody knows kind of what they want to do why they want to do it and how they want to do it. So I think our next contrib strat meeting is, is it this Thursday or next Thursday. It is next Thursday. Yes, the 23rd. So questions, concerns, comments about this I feel like we've got a lot of work to do sounds like everybody's ready to do it, which is awesome. Anything else and for us to get 15 minutes of our life back with technically 10 because Amy likes to cut the zoom meetings five minutes. I like that. I appreciate that. Y'all my hair needs a cut like seriously.  And you are adding a I'm adding that link to the issue right now. Yeah. Oh my let me see your hair Amy. This one this one is more correct the latest one is more correct. Amy your hair looks so great today. I'll hop on more video calls with like you know the being able to like you know. Yeah, there you go over the shoulder looks good. What looks like from the back just push it all forwards. At this point I'm just, oh my God. By the way if you're watching the recording this is an overmeaning. This is overmeaning topics. This is not a part of the official cncf. We're making recommendations on how to look good on a webcam. I think we should. Like build up your confidence to turn on video on zoom. Yeah. Or I know it's like, if you if your hair can look as bad as Paris you can join the meeting. When in doubt look like a potato just turn on the potato. I know. We should do you know we should inspire we should inspire we should like be the group that we want all the groups to be and like do with like silly hats and costumes if you care or like we're Carolyn showing over plushies like. Oh yeah. Oh my God. Yeah we should be the we should be the inspiration that we need like. Yeah. Well, Yeah, call it at least call the recording for the sake of the recordings purpose. Oh, The thing about these is like they will just record like no matter like what is like you know as soon as you come in like it will record which is nice because you never have to be able to turn on the recording but then it's challenging on the other It's like someone shares their screen and shares chat or whatever then you got to go back in and edit it out. Yeah. Yeah, you're preaching to that YouTube's inquire over here. You're too kind to be editing it out. We have put so many things up on YouTube before they were like, whoops. Trust me. We've gotten some of those requests we and we still do the hey oh my gosh I totally forgot that I shared my important work information in like at like you know three minutes and 33 seconds and what do I do. Oh my God. All right, y'all, it's been swell. I'll definitely see you on the 23rd and I'm sure we're all going to be chatting and slack. Oh, also, let's try really, really, really hard to work on the mailing list. I'm so bad at it, but I want you I mean I'm trying and I'm saying I'm putting that out into the ether because I want to be better at this so hard on it. Do we need to make one? Do we just need to talk more on it? Just talk more just I guess talk about our next steps on there if especially if they're not an issues like because we I think we're just like me personally I've built this culture around slack and like talking and slack and like making decisions and slack and like I'm constantly going nope I need to take this elsewhere like so yeah keep me honest that's number one say Paris this needs to go on an issue or the mailing list please like I'm not going to take any like issue with that I'm going to be like you're right and same with anybody on the call like if you see any of us like talking and slack which is awesome like we want to communicate real time and slack but if there's like something that like we're making a decision about or like the guidance there of let's talk about that. I actually have a mailing list checklist and it like sits in front of me and if I do anything that hits one of those checklists, even if I set it in slack I have to copy and paste it and put it on a mailing list. You know what. First no apologies that's what happens but it's got to go out to me less than two. Right. Yeah but tell me about this checklist because that's honestly that's a good part about like contributor strategy I think that we should give to to SIGs I mean not SIGs to projects which is like how are you communicating your decisions and like what are you talking about on the mailing list. Should I mail it to you on the mailing list? Yeah. I'll do it. I'll send you my checklist on the mailing list. Yeah. Send me the mailing list decision checklist. Yeah. Like that would be that would be like a hilarious like meme workflow. Should this be on the mailing list? Oh my god my life's a meme. All right. Have a good day. See you on Slack. Keep me honest. Have a nice day. Bye. Bye all. Bye.