So, we will discuss the time when we discuss the time when we discuss politics in the morning. This is Monday 22nd of July 2019. And today there so much that we are going to discussing later on. But right now it's quite so much of a standoff between the referendum and the husband really going on in the country about the that way alliance. And of course this morning we will be discussing much later on in details. And right now I'm joined by two guests. And he's one right on my right side is Daniel Orongwa political analyst. We don't know how to introduce you. We're just a political analyst. It's always a pleasure to be here this morning, looking forward to a great discussion of course. All right, and right next to him is Kaisu Oguda.  I'm a politician. I'm the leader of all my students in the University of Nairobi. That is a political position. Definitely, it has to be. You also told me, Mr. Oguda, that you also provide for a position at the MCA level. Yeah, as a young person, it's I through my bid for the position of member of the county assembly in the last election. All right. With all the aim, but as usual, people don't sometimes, sometimes not politics, is a game of give or take. And we are not stopping there. Yeah, there was an opportunity for us in 2022. Definitely. And whilst the language of politicians, they keep on saying definitely, and every time is usually say every Monday morning, when you see me these papers, it definitely has to be politics. I'm not going to put this down until we are done and trying to demystify the mysteries behind the operations of government and of course the referendum that I mentioned to you. I want to tip it directly to my panelist. I want to discuss about the issue of government operations. I want to talk about transparency and accountability. It has become so much of an issue right now because we are talking right now about the issue of county allocation revenue. I don't want to think, Mr. Oguda. Yeah, my name is Orog Voskosizzi, he's on the other side. Yes. Well, let us begin to denote where the rain started beating Kenyans. We have a robust constitution and we appreciate the fact that Kenya has been appreciated and identified as a progressive democracy. Let's put that to the understanding first of all. Secondly, our constitution and Chapter 2 gave us a very robust constitution on what is the composition of a republic. You see, we are a multi-democracy when we amended Section 2A we became a multi-democracy in Kenya and that is the definition of who we are but then defined by values. What is the national values as envisioned in Article 10 of our constitution, public participation, division of revenue, that is allocation of resources to the count, transparency and accountability, engagement and inclusivity. So when this also be the picture of what Kenya as a multi-democracy should look that we are a government for the people, by the people and you see, that is what it is. But look, come 2010 constitution that gave birth to a devolved system of government, decentralization of funds. What are the principles of devolution? The principles of devolution again envision our national values. The resources has to be equitably distributed to the 47 counties, the 47 county governments that we are having. Now, as we were discussing earlier, do we have a constitution that we leave to the spirit and to the latter? That is the question that we are asking. Now look at where we are before I go far. Always a referendum festival in this country. It began way in 1990s, it was there in 2000s and again in 2010, it has again come to haunt us. The question is, do we have, is our democracy in question? And I hope this is what we are going to discuss as we go by. Let me probably proceed. Do you think we are in a constitution crisis as we stand? The definition of a constitution crisis is in a small or a mega terms when a republic is at a standstill because we cannot interpret the constitution to the spirit and the latter. So we are in a constitution crisis. Yes. Let me probably bring it on board when we are talking about accountability. Do you think counties have really, or rather, let me mention about the counties. Do you think they are accountable? They have been accountable to the monies they have been given so far? Alex, let me start by saying that I love devolution. It's the best thing that has ever happened to this country. The only problem is that it's like a situation of having a mood script but having the wrong person to read it. All right. So the people to whose devolution, the whole constitution, like the 2010 constitutions, the people to, people who are supposed to implement it are just not the right people. But it is the best thing. Let me tell you, there are things that have been happening in my county. It is the gori county. It's one of the counties that have been marked to be marked with corruption and all that. But I see things happening on the ground. One, two. Beside our home, I can see how well being done. I can see some roads being made. Right. So many things are happening. Okay, that one I attribute to 2010 constitutions. Yes. But the constitutions are in the wrong hands. The best thing we could do maybe get, like my guy here, get to power as they want, and then they implement it the way it should be implemented. Now about the allocation of revenues, should get more money to the county. But only after we have the right people to implement it. Let me ask you, do you think we need more money is given to the counties because we have not yet been accountable for what we have been having? Well, you see, the division of revenue, and I think if you look at the Public Finance Act, one of the things that we actually looking towards to it, it was at least 15%. Yes. Remember the word is at least 15% of the national government allocation in each and every financial year should be directed to the 47 counties. And so what are we seeing right now that of course the government has come with its terms to allocate resources to the county. The question is that we are not forthcoming with the answers of what has been given to the county. Now secondly, and I like what my co-panelist says, that you see we have a good constitution, we have it, but it is in the hands of the wrong people. They implement us here. The public officers, the state officers who are actually given an opportunity to serve are not giving the service, are not living by the expectation of the constitution. So that means that it brings us to a governance crisis in effect that when for example billions and billions have been given to the counties but even as we were speaking before you are telling me about a certain county where the workers have not gone paid for a long time. It is reflexive on so many counties where not only workers have not been paid. Doctors have done their services in various hospitals, country, federal hospitals. What is happening is that developments are in a standstill. So the question is did we in effect accountable to what was given to the counties? Look at the report of control of budget. That can literally bring you to tears where we are suffering as a county, different counties and everything is at a standstill but some money has deliberately been misappropriated in the counties with zero accountability and it brings me back to what I told you before. Our reflection as a county and as a country is to live by the expectation of the values, the value system that is envisioned in article 10 that reflects that is who we are as a county but then is it ideal for us, is it realistic for us as a county when a foreigner looks to us and honestly Kyle Makata the new U.S. ambassador during the prayer rally you saw what he tweeted few weeks in assignment in Kenya you see what he tweeted is actually reflective of hypocritical government who prays but then do not implement what is expected. You are trying to say we are not functional to a devolved unit, are we? Well, give the devil his deal. Yes. The counties for example like Machakus we are still struggling with some economics in this county in Nairobi county and you could actually see that while other counties are getting it right and actually I'm loud in Migori because Migori is also while we are trying to place Migori as a county that is not performing but you could actually see the governor is actually forthcoming with development. Politizization of devolution is actually pulling us behind when it comes to implementation of development. So in other words Alex, we have resources. I have not forgotten something that happened when France won the World Cup with a team of blacks so many blacks I think more than three quarters of that team of blacks so people are saying that it is Africa that has won the World Cup. You know how they say if the same team is given to an African country the training money will be eaten they will go to the field with parties instead of shoes they will like all the resources that should help that team win, won't win. So we have the resources but now corruption corruption is the cancer here. Yes and that leads me to my next question to both of us or to both of you that we have been hearing issues of corruption from time to time and last week the governors went to the supreme court the apex court in the country and they wanted to be allocated more funds in the counties but Aiden Duala, the majority lead of parliament was questioning them to first of all be accountable you seem to be so much into it I'm one person I think like my colleague is pulling we are accountable to the resources that we are given we should be and I like this debate because then it focuses on the practicalities of values and principles accountability is one of them and you see the public finance act requires accountability can you account for the resources that you are located before you could ask for more and you see the other thing as I was discussing the supremacy that you are seeing right now in the corridors of justice it has little to do with money more to do on bragging rights who has the power between the senate and the national assembly and my friend I could refer you way back to 2013 when then the senator of Mombasa said that we as a senate we should be given more resources comparatively we traverse a county compared to our friends in the national assembly who only goes through a constituency and some constituencies are even smaller even like a world but for us how do you give equal resources to a senator at the same time you give them equal resources to the MP the question that is right now in the battle of the corridors of justice is the questions about money bill in the parliament the evolution of the finance bill that is number one number two is about the summoning power who has the summoning power and the friend Matiangi then the minister of interior said if I as a cabinet secretary is being summoned twice in a month the senate on security committee summons me to explain the following week the parliament committee on security summons me so who what is the parallel that we are seeing in the parliament between the senate and the national assembly and the third like I have said is pivaleon supremacy the definition of which is the house and which is the lower house so I think this is what we are seeing now on the bill between the difference of the billions if there is just a amount of billion 15 billion that is now in the corridors of justice yes now the supreme court is the upper court and I would like to advise the members of the senate and the governors seeking for interpretation begins in the high court alright we are staring at a situation where we could waste a lot of time in the senate and the bench the court is going to refer us back for the interpretation in the high court so I think let us avoid this festival the monies are not yet in the counties the workers have not been paid developer projects are installing in the counties and who suffers most is the monange I beg to disagree we don't go through both duale and my friend here about earning governors to be accountable for whatever they have been given before how many institutions do we have in this country that is responsible to check on the integrity and accountability of the governors we have ethics and anti-corruption condition that is one we have the senate which has the responsibility of making sure that there is accountability in the counties like the oversight trust we again have the assemblies at the county level all these are there to see that money is well spent what have they done what have they done let us give governors the money and then these institutions which also spend a lot of money do their work and make sure that if there is a governor who is corrupt let him be prosecuted I forgot to say even the judiciary if the work of the judiciary in fact 4 institutions the judiciary, the county assemblies the national assembly also do oversight but for the national government and now the ethics and anti-corruption commission why are we holding the money instead of giving the governors and let these people do their work let me probably bring you on board on this particular issue in Bomet county we had two several issues about the bridge two bridges and according to the local residents of the areas they were saying it was supposed to be like 1.2 million of which the government they used 6 million for just a bridge and they said it was misuse of funds what has the county assembly of Bomet done about it what has the ethics and anti-corruption commission done about it what has the judiciary done about it so you think there is someone who is hitting on the edge these are manimending institutions that should be accountable in fact we should be asking them not even the county assembly of Bomet that is what they are paying to do we should see it and allocate they should question everything they should question what the Bomet governor is doing even the or let me say the ministry of the Bomet governorship that does that they should be the people telling us let us give the governor's money and the institution meant to do oversight let them do oversight there are people sleeping on the journey well let me also try to bring this into light you see when money and resources are devolved to the county the county is from the national government there are procedures that are followed first is the approval of the finance bill being read in the appropriation act being passed by the county assemblies that is the far the county legislations are able to do now on expenditure it is the work of two institutions at the county to do the internal audits that are within the counties and the external audits now that is the office of the auditor general to come and verify with internal audits that this is indeed what is misappropriated in the counties or not failure to which what happens the auditor general blows a whistle that the money has been misappropriated in these counties now who takes charge at that the investigator will come in to investigate the ethics and corruption will come to investigate however the approvals that goes to the counties follows the process of the national assembly and that means that after each and every budget is read the appropriation act needs to be passed now what happens within the county assemblies has passed their finance bill all over the counties waiting for the expenditures but since the division of revenue allocation bill has not been passed and approved at the national assembly at the national level their passage in the county assemblies in Ireland that is the statement that we hear as a county and that is why there is no development that will take place in the counties unless the senate and the national assembly agree on the division of revenue allocation bill and pass into an act now however the governors could not ask for more money because it's a constitutional requirement in the finance bill and the finance act for them to be accountable through their auditing internal audits and through the controller the office of the Auditor General failure to reach any infrastructure bodies would actually hinder the money on the basis of the misappropriation of the previous finance corruption still remains a great manace in the country especially last year when the nation was really really mild with corruption when we talk about the NYS Skando, the KPLC National Series and Produce Board Kenya Pipeline Company Kaisu because you said for you and for your opinion there should not be accountable for it my problem that I have just said is that I don't know but I know a lot of money is being allocated to the bodies that are supposed to fight corruption we are not somebody sleeping on the job Pelo once said that when you are appointed to be the boss on commission that office there you should be pretending to work appearing to work but you don't work because if you really work if you really work you will be really kicked out you will be kicked out of that office so the problem is that there is even corruption even in the corruption you had some time complaining that the office of the Auditor General the office is there the office is under Uhuko it's like pushing him to pay something so that they don't shed him in the bad light so even the bodies that are charged with fighting corruption in Kenya are more corrupt than the corruption they should be pursuing so that is the problem it's like we are corrupt from the apex to the foot we are corrupt like corruption is hitting us you see it's cancer, cancer spreads when it gets into maybe the lungs or the breast if it's not well checked in time it will spread to all organs of the body so that's how the corruption has got I want us to go to our next topic which is the referendum reacts but before we go there allow me to ask Ken Lusaka yesterday mentioned something that was so critical and he said he is actually the majority leader of the senate and the speaker Rada he was saying that there is already a discussion between the senate national assembly do you think the governors will withdraw the case? well I'm one of the person who was actually trying to write to the articles about why it's important to have a political settlement to this matter because sometimes you realize that the constitution is so strict on procedures while we are held bent on trying to solve them out but then we are not getting a solution so I I really support the fact that it's important sometimes for us to avoid being stagnant and always in conflict it is important to have a political settlement well that doesn't mean that we compromise on the integrity in the supreme expectation of the committees and institution it's important to have a dialogue now let's also remember that the deputy president of republic of Kenya actually shares the intergovernment of budget and economic and to some extent he actually appealed that it is important to have a dialogue on these cases to avoid further impasse and it failed that is why it is in the corridors of justice so I feel while we are taking a lot of time to brush shoulders in the court of justice it's important even within the party level for jubilee and you see a NASA ODM to that effect to actually whip their members to have a dialogue about solving this issue before it escalate further I think it is prudent to have a political dialogue to solve this issue as it is people might not find a solution in the courts of corridors of justice so people may not find the verdict right on their side as you have stated you are watching why in politics so here at Y-254 of course you can keep on interacting with us at Y-254 on Twitter and we want to shift gears for now and talk about the referendum partway alliance probably just to bring on board partway alliance party led by a kuru or court are seeking for some constitutional amendments and some of the things they seek to be amended are number one the cost of running parliament from 36.8 billion to 5 billion per year number two they want the members of parliament reduced from 416 to 147 they want the nominated members of parliament and of course even the women representative abolished and so much more than they really want in the constitution and Daniel I don't know what you think you are interesting to hear from a good answer still bad they are done arrival they are not going to allow it no anything that the one reason why it's not going to be allowed is that it's going to reduce the number of legislatures maybe they are not going to allow it like somebody is coming to propose to you that you support that you lose your job they are not going to allow it and those people think using their stomach they are also going to reduce the number of women in fact they are going to scrap out women reposition yes women are not going to allow it if they have been pushing for the gender bill in the parliament like with their blood and sweat they have been pushing it and now you are telling them that the 47 the automatic 47 seats that they have in the parliament is going to be removed they are not going to allow it third they are not going to allow it because of even the it will need to be passed even in the county assemblies and reduce the number of words my word is already big enough too big with over 100,000 there's a clip I want us to before probably we discussed to run it's about political leaders yesterday they differed about the issue of the referendum and I don't know where we really stand but we'll be discussing that let's first of all have a look at this clip divided opinion continues to great the push for a referendum following the successful collection of over 1 million signatures by the third way alliance while some leaders support the call to cut the cost of government as proposed in the Puguzami Zigo initiative others have questioned against rushing to amend the constitution and I can say right now all we are doing is recurring recurring there's nothing in development and this is very serious for a country so this is an area where we need to do something by reducing the number of people who are employed by 1G4 those are members of parliament governors and we can have few regional governments and also we can reduce we can remove women's rep and all that because we need to have and with the technology you don't need many leaders nowadays we are good to do is mathematics properly perhaps because he is a lawyer he is not very good with numerics let me tell him that the cost of running is only 1% of the entire cost of running national government we don't want that in the whatever proposal that we need at attack governors we are satisfied with the two terms we want now to do to do other things and these are just some of the divided opinions from leaders from Kavisha, Washira and of course the Honda Bupol Koinage from Kemba these are just some of the opinions that they had to air I don't know what you think about when we passed the constitution we envisaged that it was not perfect it needed to be amended I think let's admit well so far as I'm concerned first of all I do not really have an opinion when it comes to how the signatures were collected to 1.2 million but since it was verified by IBC years I think that in their wisdom they found that the signatures were actually accurate that's what I am assuming and this level they have done better than NASA before when you see for them it's about 1.2 you know was it called on NASA who couldn't manage to reach and the signatures were drone cows and we see in glues and all this but for Ikuru he has managed to do 1.2 congratulations are in order sir but right now what is in stake here is the fact that the referendum proposals appear to philosophical to me why because you do not propose radical measures that I have seen in proposing you see when you for example want to reduce the salary of the president to 500,000 per month and that of a member of parliament 300,000 per month not checking into consideration the inflation in 2 or 3 years covers I think is not realistic secondly when you want to scrap the position of the nominated members of county assembly you are forgetting that your proposals would have to go to almost 47 counties for debate they will not really like that and I think that also my colleague has said the members of county assembly would vote that out to me secondly one term president for 7 years you cannot propose that while we are having a progressive constitution while a president would endear himself to the electorates and would want to reelect him back in other terms you are curtailing the freedom of the electorates to have their say on trying to give another term to a president who performs that is also a hitback that they need to look at and another one is the fact that scrapping out the position of county women representative it's not a good show it's not a good thing because that is what is trying to balance the issue about the gender role in the national assembly in the senate which I think now anybody who is suspected on a corruption part to be given a life sentence I think this is why I am saying it's quite radical because the rule of natural justice required a fair trial and a fair hearing and not anybody who is accused of corruption and is even proposing that cases involving corruption must have a particular time limit again I say it's okay because we have in corruption cases that are going over and over and for years and years but I think for that I agree with him but for the proposal that somebody who is involved in corruption should be given a life sentence I think for that is too radical and too extreme I respect Dr. Kuruakot because he has a PhD in law but here I think he missed it he missed it because he avoided the elephant in the room which is corruption demizigo that need to be punguzuad is corruption it's what it's meaning out money out of our cheka so the plebiscite debate everything that to do with it just as I said is dead on arrival I think probably just to understand he is trying to tell us we want to reduce the wage bill and that's his main aim so do you think we are ready for referendum as a country you know what Onore Bopio and I told him is that he should hand over his proposals to the BBI to the BBI teams building bridges initiatives so that they compare so that they compare the way what they can take and what they can throw away in fact he told them from your briefcase political party we don't recognize that I don't know who is going to support this guy because we already said that he is going to mobilize all the pastoral communities to which he called he said is the patron to reject that thing in totality because it's nothing about them so if the women are rejecting it the pastoral community rejecting it all the in fact NASA as a fraternity has rejected it also so the is the governor this young man he also said it's not going to work so he's going to support this thing before we go to the BBI I know you have something about the building bridges initiative and the young people but before we go there let me ask are we overrepresented definitely we are overrepresented and I think this is the undoing nature of committee of experts who was one of them he was the chairman exactly so I'm wondering why we have not foreseen these kind of challenges and wait until this time so that you actually come up with these proposals but we need that to say we are progressive like I said is a progressive democracy we have so indeed we are overrepresented because listen we back to member of county assembly what member of county assembly he is employing personal assistants office administrators a sweeper in his office that in itself I come to the member of parliament the same employee in the office who is paying taxpayers money Senate who is paying taxpayers money women taxpayers money doing the same thing representing the people at different levels we can understand that he is trying to deal with an issue of representation but then his proposals are not right now you are seeing me about you know the all these initiatives are actually one and the same thing because they are meant to score a desire by a few political leaders in a like being truthful bbi has never been done to the public the agreement what we are reading is always on the nine point agenda so the bbi and I keep on faulting the bbi in its composition dealing matters of inclusivity and representation while young people are not represented in those committees I think there is a fallacy in itself now why do you say that because when you are reading on the nine point agenda of bill bbi and probably we can have time again to discuss the bbi nine point agenda if you read to it is an inclusion that should be reflected in its composition I am seeing an old generation 100% representative of the bbi knowing who they claim you know no young representation in the bbi so I think it's much hypocritical in its composition the reason a kuru I would not advise a kuru to support and give a proposal to bbi is simply because a kuru has appeared to be transparent in the way he does his things he followed a constitution collected signatures and came up with proposals bbi in itself has not given us the public agreement about building bridges initiative in the handshake I have followed his composition and I am sure that one thing that this institution is going to do is to come up with a predetermined position and a predetermined proposals which to me is not likely that is representing the wanjikus my partition is very simple I think we are in a kwaqmai as a country and as young people one of the things we keep on when we need asking the leaders is what is in stake for us not what is in stake for them 30 seconds for a kuru that name challenges me you cannot bring a mess over representation was his mess because he was the one chairing that and then come back to tell us to fix it to ask more money for us to fix it another thing is that bbi is good now we have peaceful country they are not street demonstration economy is growing salute bbi that has been why politics always fire here as we are discussing politics but from now we call it a day for youth and politics and of course join me next week we will be discussing this and much more developing stories of course really trying to bring on board young people and trying to discuss some of the things that are really affecting us but for now we want to call it a day for when politics but man crush Monday is coming in just a few weeks val do stay good many thanks for making time