Hey, what's up everybody welcome back to another episode of the zero-to-diamond podcast today We have a really incredible guest you guys are in for a treat here. Let me just go ahead and introduce This guy has sold over three billion dollars worth of real estate he's the star of million dollar listing Los Angeles on Bravo TV and he has just recently written a book The deal and I'm just gonna go ahead and bring him out Let's do this with Josh flag. What's up, bro? All right. Oh Good man. Oh good. Yeah, good. You're looking sharp. Thank you Yeah, man, so you got some serious fans. I When I started putting this out yesterday, I had I got I got blown up with people just Loving you Like that much about but but you know, I try to I try to please I'll think maybe just the humbleness right there people just love that but yeah, I got blown up I was like, man, you know, these people love Josh I mean because I've I've interviewed a lot of people and it was kind of a little a lot more than normal. So That's a good thing Well, here we are That's it man. So I want to get into a lot of things. I want to get into You know luxury real estate like the shift your business What's going on, you know, how you operate as well as you know How an agent could go from regular sales to residential talk about your book and all that good stuff But I kind of wanted to you know, even for myself here kind of hear it straight from the horse's mouth Just like how you got into real estate.  Well, I started real estate when I was 19. I was in high school. I didn't really want to go to college so I started knocking on doors, believe it or not and You know one door led to another and one house led to another and all of a sudden I was making sales I mean, I'm not gonna say that it was easy. It was it was challenging and a lot of people don't want to list their house with a 19 year old but I was convincing enough probably because I Have the knowledge and I knew so much about real estate and that's because I studied him I studied it and I studied it and I and I was my passion and it still is my passion and when you really love something you you're good at it and I I You know luckily the show came along But I when I was a very successful broker a couple years This was a couple years later that the show came along but by the time the show came on it obviously catapulted the career Right it was a Blessing of course, I mean It's a tremendous blessing And I'm very lucky for it. I mean you think about all the money that brokers spent on advertising Newspaper ads mailers this that and I have a platform which is you know been on for 15 years and Incindication in 70 different countries and etc. Etc. I mean it's It's It's been it's it's it's been a blessing So when did you when did you first get into real estate? What year was up? I want to say 2005.  I've always loved houses and I knew that was my calling. I it was going to be that or you know if I remember Fred Savage telling me when I was younger you should be a talent agent and And I always wanted to be a talent agent and my uncle was at William Morris and he said well You got to start reading Variety magazine and so you know I started getting I just got a subscription to Variety and You know one came two came three came and there's a whole stack of them never opened one of them And so I realized okay. I'm not interested in this so I love houses. I love people. I love real estate What do you get you get a real estate agent? Mm-hmm. No, absolutely So and then okay so 15 years ago that was so only after like three years the show came around Three years into the game and then The show came around about two years after I'd say about 2007 Mm-hmm. And then when you got in and you started knocking on doors you immediately Got into the high-end luxury game. You never sold, you know average price point or You know 500 to a million dollar homes you kind of started out in the high-end luxury Did you start out, you know and then move your way into high-end luxury? I Started out. No, I started out in luxury real estate because that's what I wanted to do I mean, that's what I understood and that's what I know.  That's not how it works. You have to really understand it What would you tell an agent that Is not in high-end luxury who wants to do high-end luxury then wants to move into that market? I'm sorry. What like what would you tell an agent who is not in luxury, right? Who wants to do luxury? Oh very simple. I would say work go go join a real estate team Work under somebody that is successful knows what they're doing and I would say sit open houses That's the best way to pick up clients That's the best thing you can do. Yeah so like high-end luxury open houses you've got you know Everyone coming through buyers and sellers for luxury coming through the open houses you have Buyers you have agents you have all these kinds of connections coming in and that's what you need and You know, all you need is that one buyer that comes in that might not buy that house but is looking for a house and then That person wants you to represent them, right? And so you got in the show started and that was around 2008 or so right that was when the market was crashing and burning, right? No, I would say no because around 2005 is when I started and Then the show came along a couple years later So that the market was good for a couple of years for the first couple years of then the market crashed Right, right, and then how do what how did that affect you?  I think I'd locked that memory out It wasn't fun but you know we we weather that storm and and This too shall pass as they say. Yeah Yeah, and then the market rebounded and has been amazing ever since and then we had the huge run-up in 2021 after the pandemic and then we got covid everyone Right market crash and it kind of did for a minute And then all of a sudden somebody woke up one day and said hey, we're in the middle of a pandemic Let's start buying real estate And so that happened and You know we Somehow the market blew up, you know and then 2022 June of last year happened and the market started to soften industry started to rise and now it's You know March 2008 April 2023 and I see the market has started to pick up a little bit again And I think that we're gonna I think we're gonna be okay this year. Oh Yeah, I mean if you look at prices you're up you're positive and just about every market for the year Right now it dipped down a little and we're off the lows and now it's positive So I think the problem is inventory, right? Is that your problem over there as well? Inventory is low Prices are high People are unrealistic about prices Still and those that are realistic are the ones that go and sell their houses in multiples and those are the ones that That are successful the ones that are listing their house at these aspirational prices are the ones that are not successful Yeah So how many like what's your like? How do you manage your time with filming for the show and And business or does it all play together? Is it all one thing now or is it two separate things and Like how does that work being a you know a TV star for 15 seasons and also real estate agent? I mean, it's a lot of time It's a lot of energy You know we film for about nine months of the year keep it buying houses like you know shows like the house was or they can film in three four or five months because You know, it's just we have to follow transactions and follow escrows and that takes time.  You know helping people buy and sell or are they pretty much just documenting what you're doing anyway? Pretty much documenting what I'm doing anyway And half of the houses that we feature on the show or you know, we only feature half I mean most of my houses we don't feature on the show most of my clients, you know Interested in right and being on television, but a good majority are Yeah Okay, um, what about your like do you I want to know about your business Right, I don't know nothing about the operational side. Do you have a team? Do you have agents? You know, what is your staff like? Well, I have myself and I have two assistants and I have a few agents that work under me, but it's basically me Yeah Yeah, and then like for example This year so far, do you know how many transactions you guys have done? That I can't answer you. I never look at the numbers because what's the point? Yeah, right, right? Give me or give me excited Yeah, for sure So now we're at this place where the market is kind of starting to Kind of level out and kind of come back And but it's kind of crazy because sellers are still extremely unrealistic prices are still incredibly high Like what do you what do you think's going to happen from here? Like do you I mean? I think that we're going to say stable. I think that the prices will stay pretty much consistent where they are I think that They're not going to go up. I don't think they're going to go terribly down I think Beverly Hills will prices will continue to rise um, I think that um I think overall we're going to be pretty healthy. I think interest rates will calm down a little bit um, I think that I'm not tear is terribly worried as most people are maybe I should be but I'm not Well, I mean if prices come down, um, just makes it easier to sell Yeah, pretty much and that's why I see it. I mean if prices go down considerably It's like how easy are those properties going to be able to sell at that point? Exactly You know, so I'm always in a place of I don't care what the market does You know Um, of course, I'm like you I got in in 2002 and I went through 2008 lost everything and and all that so I've been through a few market shifts, so I understand closings continue to happen Cool, man. Tell me about this book. I want to know all about it Well, the book is interesting because it's not one of your real estate books where you read it and you're just like Oh, okay. This is how you sell real estate. This is one plus one is two This is how you calculate the price per foot and you multiply it by the square footage of the house It's not like that. It's filled with comedy. It's filled with stories. It's filled with all the mistakes I've made it's filled with all the great things that I've done It's filled with everything. It's it's just it's an easy read. It's chapter after chapter of great anecdotes, and it's just entertaining and um This is the third book I've written and I think it's I think it's the best one so far I think that people really really enjoy people that are not even it doesn't mean you need to even be interested in getting Into real estate you could just be interested in You could be a plumber. You could be a gardener. You could be a you could be a lawyer You could be anything it just shows you how to make sales and it shows you how the art of the sale yeah, so It's basically called the the art of negotiating right the mat to master the art of negotiating The deal to master the art of negotiation the deal exactly the deal And the subtitle is about negotiating. What what's your like general? Do you have a tip on negotiations? Like just general take away I mean that's such a broad question. I mean there's so many facets to negotiating I mean, it's I can't really answer it like that, but I mean the book outlines everything from a to z You know, it's negotiating is something you either know how to do or you don't it's a gift. It's not something that that uh Like I say everyone thinks they can get a real estate license. They'd be successful It's you either know what you're doing or you don't you have it in you or you don't Yeah Yeah, there's an it factor Yeah, exactly Yeah What speaking of comedy and antidotes and little stories and stuff.  They said they were not Can't play dog And they and the sellers agreed and they threw in the dog Wow Yeah So the buyer the buyers when they showed the property, they saw the dog and they just said this dog goes with this house Bye bye doggy Had to have the dog had to have the dog and Yeah, um, but I mean it's like I tell these stories so nonchalantly, but if you read this book I mean, there's just so many interesting stories in there and Luckily, I have a pretty good memory and I was able to write these things down over the years and And you can't script this shit Yeah No, not at all Guys, um, if you're watching here live or on the replay, I've got a link to josh's book in the description Um Or you can go to amazon barns and noble wherever and just search josh flag Um, and the book we're talking about is the deal And so I actually have it started reading it. It's actually quite interesting as josh said So you guys be sure to pick that up And let me know in the comments if you're going to do that and definitely when you read it Shoot me and josh a message and and let us know what you thought Um, because we'd love to hear Bro, like what else is going on like what you got going on today? Like what what's your day look like? Uh people magazines coming over we're doing a shoot like an at-home Lifestyle shoot at my house we are they're featuring my house and doing a profile on me and Um, that's the plan for today Going to look at a couple houses also Have a couple showings Have a dinner this evening and uh You know, that's pretty much it Do you just feel like absolutely blessed? I feel Many days blessed many days frustrated, but I feel overall blessed. Yes What do you what do you get frustrated about? What do I get frustrated about um when I can't get what I want? Mm-hmm Like you can't negotiate what you want Yeah, like just yeah, give it all when you give it your all and you just You know, it doesn't work out Right All right, but you've got I mean I could imagine you have everything that you could possibly ever need Pretty much It's just no nobody has nobody has everything that I need Yeah It's just the point of the matter at that point.  I accept you know No, I don't think I'm competitive I don't think I'm competitive I think that I'm really good at what I do and I think that I nine out of ten times when I go on a listing appointment. I get it and uh But I would say I don't I don't think I'm competitive now Do you does your business now is just all residual just Past clients referrals people that know you from the show. You don't really door knock anymore. You don't really Do anything in terms of prospecting or Marketing do you do direct mail? Do you do anything outside of just people calling you to do deals? Is it all residual this point? You know, I do mailers. I do email blasts. I do no I do a ton of things But okay, I mean I would say that No, I do a ton of things, but I mean the show is obviously a huge platform I would say that um The show email blast la times ads mailers You know, those are all the Those are the key things. Yeah, so you do la times ads Yeah, you do that for like big listings or do you just do Josh flag, you know, no, I usually do one page ads on each property, you know Um people still reprint Britain believe it or not and if not they read it online Yeah Yeah, absolutely. Do you do like um yearly goals Do you do like goal setting and stuff like that? Yeah, no, I I don't believe in that because I can't control who's gonna call me the next day or what client is gonna call me What's the point? It's nice. So how do you so how do you organize your? You know your routine and stuff. Do you have a routine or is just kind of whatever whenever? Or how do you for for me? I'm the same way. I don't like yearly goals You know, I more so create a weekly daily routine and try to maximize every second And try to get more, you know become more efficient, you know every day Um, that's my goal to do as as well as I can day by day um Like what's your system there to just continue to maximize and become more and more efficient? I just Was my system. I I don't really know if there's a system. I've been doing it for so long I just kind of innate. I just I wake up.  I I I do a lot of writing.  I call brokers. I There's a lot Yeah, do you go to the gym?  Those are the calls you're making Exactly. I'm trying to dig in.  So Um, that's why i'm asking these questions because I also would like to know I just interviewed josh cohen. He's the number one remix agent. You know josh I mean, i'm sorry jordan jordan cohen Jordan cohen. Yes, I do know him He's an alibu or he's in west lake And he number one remix agent in the world But um, same thing just dug all the way into his business Great guy. You guys know deals I think we've met over the years, but I don't I don't recall ever doing a deal with him. He does a lot of deals in west lake, I believe Yeah, yeah He's a great guy um Cool, so You're a lot like me then you just wake up and get after it all day That's it Try to make as you never know what the day is going to bring every day is something to know Yeah um So what's the goal like what do you like, you know, you don't make yearly goals what What continues to drive you and You know, what's what's the end end goal like what's the five ten year? um You know play if you even have one I've ten year play Honestly, I think I'm going to keep doing this until I'm 80 or 90 as long as I can keep doing it I mean, I love this. I mean, I have really no reason to ever retire. I don't I don't like to I don't I love making deals. I don't really think there is an end here. I don't think there is an end Yeah, I don't think that there is a uh I don't even look I don't look that far in the future. I just go day by day Yeah, yeah, no that's kind of why that's it But the best message I have is if you read this book If you're thinking of getting into residential real estate, you'll know in one second if this is right for you You'll know if this is the goal. I mean, you'll know if this is You'll know if this is right for you And I think it's the best Whatever 17 or 20 dollar investment you can make I like to say Yeah, guys, if you're just tuning in or watching on the replay I put a link to josh's book uh in the description there or you can find it on amazon barns and noble Just starts josh flag or the deal Yeah, that that's exactly that's why I said if in fact there is an end game because I kind of figured there was it for you Just grind until you can't grind anymore Grind until you can't grind anymore That's it Just keep just keep going just selling the property. So Tell me give me a uh, give me a cool celebrity story that you can tell Well, let's see one time I was traveling in asia and I got a call from the real estate agent for Adele and she came to see one of my listings and She didn't want to leave. She said I want to rent this house and I want to I want to move in tonight Like she didn't leave the showing No, she didn't leave. She just said here. I'll wire you the money right now. I'm staying here tonight I'm I'm tired of And that was that That was that and so she was there for like three to six months in Beverly park Nice That was funny. I thought the dog story was funny, obviously um Yeah, I mean, I think that uh, there's so many stories over the years You know, I can't even think because you know It's I actually you know, I probably should read the book again I it's been a couple weeks since I reread it, but it's also an audible. It's nice to hear you can you can Listen to it too, which is really nice. Did you do the did you do the audio? No, I didn't I didn't do the audio. Yeah Cool, cool, cool. Yeah, no, man. Um I'm trying to think if there's anything anything else I wanted to scrape out of you guys If you have any questions for drosh put it in the comments right this second Um, and let me know if there's anything specifically about while we have him Uh, let me scroll through the comments real quick What areas in la are up and coming are there any up and coming? Uh markets in la That you see You know, I think that ship is past. I think that everybody knows everything is everything is already coming. It's already there Bird streets cruise tail Beverly Hills home deals beller. Everybody knows all the ones are ready Yeah um Do you have an operations team you said you have two Two admin assistants myself What what are the what roles do the do the assistants play like what? What's their duties? Do they show property do they do do they go to property? But I have a personal assistant that does all my personal stuff like people magazines coming here You know in an hour. So he's getting the flowers arranged the fireplace arranged those kinds of things um, you know We have um, I have a house manager who takes care of running the household I have You know my my real estate assistant who handles Some showings from me sets up appointments. So there's there's like three main people Yeah Did you ever study art or architecture? I did not but since I was a child I've been going to museums and passions of mine has always been Interior design architecture. That's always been my passion Did you ever call uh, you know, did you ever do the the the typical uh, you know expires for sell by owners? You know calling property owners I used to do that. It works. It works, but it's not I don't really like to get the sloppy seconds unless the seller calls me. I don't really like to go after that That's not really the reputation. I want right. So you did some expires, you know what? I mean if you're starting out it can work It can be helpful Yeah, whatever works works for you Oh, this is a good one. Do you what what's your do you invest? You buy but do you buy investment properties only for myself? I end up buying houses and then I end up Planning to start the project and then somebody always I buy them really well Then somebody offers me a lot of money and I and I flip them and I don't even do or to them That's usually that's been the trend You buy and flip Yeah What about Santa Monica? I don't No, I don't know. No, Santa Monica is not really my territory. Yeah Um, how do you generate leads for your listings? How do I generate leads for my listings? I mean everything that that's pretty easy. I mean the MLS is a lot of trivia. I mean That's that's that's easy stuff Yeah cool, man Yeah, anything else you want to add or anybody anywhere you want people to follow you You know josh flag one on instagram You got josh flag one on instagram. You got facebook. You've got my website josh flag dot com You can buy my book at barns and nobles or amazon Uh, it's pretty easy to find me. It's pretty easy to contact me. Just go to josh flag dot com Yeah, yeah, go to josh flag dot com guys. Uh follow him on instagram I put the link to his youtube channel in the description along with his book Josh thanks for coming on bro Thank you Yeah, yeah enjoyed it and we'll talk to you soon. All right


Hey, good morning and welcome to this session on the art of descent. Thank you very much for joining us. I'm happy to say this is a session that is on the record and being recorded and live streamed on top link and the web forum website. My name is Mina Alaribi. I'm delighted to be moderating this session. I will introduce our panel and I'd like to encourage you all to think about your questions and comments for our panel early on because we'd like to engage you at the very beginning. So first, starting with Anand at the very end. Anand Singh is a producer at Video Vision Entertainment from South Africa has produced over 75 films to speak, including an Oscar nominee. So that's something to discuss. Next to him is Mina Kiay who is the UN Special Rapporteur on the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association based out of Nairobi. Patrick Shahpet who is an editorial cartoonist for International New York Times. I'm sure you've seen his cartoons in the International New York Times, but others. And Haifa Almansoor who is a director from Saudi Arabia and a very well known one of that. So thank you very much for joining us. Of course, we meet at a time where many people are talking about not only the role of art and... Oh, please. Okay, thank you. Okay, till have the right names. This is really a first for me on the panel. And so, you know, the role of art, but also expression. Some people say that there is the right to express yourself. There is the right to offend, but there is also the right to protect that which you hold sacred. And what you hold sacred doesn't necessarily have to be religious at such. At a time where we see the rise of populism and we also see the use of social media where perhaps something that will be published in a local paper somewhere can now be spread around the world in a very quick manner. Film that necessarily wouldn't have reached all corners of the world through various distributors, but also online streaming can now touch people around the world. So while that helps us to be more connected and know more about each other, in some cases, there's concern that it's leading to a rise of misinformation and not really understanding each other. So again, art plays a role perhaps greater than some of the media or the journalism that we see in the world as a journalist. I think that truly, art can be the medium that can bridge some of the gaps that we have in short, bite-sized kind of news or information that's going out there. But it's also a tough time. We see the rise of pressures on artists, whether it is the very famous now, Meryl Streep speech that she gave at the Oscars, or whether it is through the expelling or the imprisonment of cartoonists in different parts of the world. This is the time that we also have to protect these rights of expression and those who are taking the chance. So, without further ado, I want to start with you, Haifa. You know, here in Davos, there's been much said about the need for positive narratives. As a time of discord, there's a time where we worry about polarization that really we need positive narratives. Others would argue that we need to have realistic narratives. We have to reflect what is happening in society. How do you take this role of having a positive narrative? I think being a filmmaker, when you make a film, you want to touch people. I'm not going to say it is positive, but I want to make films that embrace the love of life, that move the society to our tolerance and advocate for diversity. And at the heart of it, that there are characters that you relate to and you love and you feel and you see yourself in them. So I don't think that necessarily has to be positive. And I think it needs, but in a way, it needs to touch people. And I feel it is maybe, especially in cinema, where you want to have people to go and buy tickets and attend your film. You want to entertain them. You want to take them, transform them to a place that sometimes they see something that maybe they don't necessarily believe in. And after a film, they kind of like makes it easier, whether it is like homosexuality or like women's right in Saudi, for example. I think it's very important to not to have this way to find a way to people's hearts. And that is for me how I want to make films. And it is not, I want it to entertain, I want to engage with my audience. I want people to just like cry at the end of a film. I think it is fun to go to a movie and laugh and cry and feel and go to a different place. Maybe something, you don't necessarily something you would like feel like it is not maybe your values and maybe you shift a little bit. That's just because you've been in that experience. So you think about the reactions of the audience to your films, but you must also think about the reaction of authorities. Because often when we're speaking about the sentence, the idea of, you know, is it pushing against either necessarily social restrictions or for example, certain authorities within a country. Do you think about, do you reflect about how will the reaction be of authorities, not only the audience? Well, I worked in the West and I worked in Saudi Arabia, so it's different. When I'm in Saudi Arabia, for sure, it's a very conservative place and you really need politically and religiously. And there are so many things that you cannot really just say in a film. But there are ways, and I think the limited space makes the way of making a film different. And there is certainly a self-censorship. But I think it also pushes the artist into a place where they want to say what they want to say, but they want to say it in a way people accept it. But when you go and work in the West, which is a lot more freeing, I really enjoy it. Because in Saudi Arabia I was in a van and I was hiding, this is a segregated country when we were filming outside. I wasn't able to be with the crew. There were so many logistics that are worth tough. But going into making a film somewhere else, it is freer. Like I could do whatever I want. I can say whatever I want. And there was no limitation. There was fun in it. But also it takes you to a whole different level of really wanting to say something that is meaningful. You have the world that is no limit, but you really want to work on your craft and you really want to perfect the work. And it is like, there's always limitation, not limitation, but there's always, artists always have to work hard in shaping what they want to say. Whether they only attract, like talking to audience or then trying to deal with censorship or trying to figure out the third. Patrick, about this idea of you only have, you have limitations. I mean, for you, I guess you have limitations of how much you can put down on a piece of paper, but also you have to put the limitations on how your audience will understand what you're trying to say through your cartoon. But now, of course, we see also limitations in terms of pressures. And I know for you, this is something that you've not only spoken a lot about, but worked and advocated for the rights of cartoonists and others to express themselves. So I wanted to ask you about this. Why do you think people find that cartoons can provoke in a way that other mediums don't necessarily provoke? Well, first, because I think it is their role. It's the role of cartoning, cartoning which is in between art and journalism. It's a visual form of journalism. And I think it is, by the way, the positive role of cartoning in any society you need those voices, critical voices. Any regime needs that. So speaking truth to power is really the role of cartoning. And this is in no contradiction with, that's what you can call provocation. It's usually called provocation when you feel bad about the message and don't appreciate it. But it's a positive role that is not in contradiction with responsibility. Freedom of expression is not only, it's the right to say what you want. It's also the permission to listen to others. And for example, and of course, two years after the Charlie Hebdo massacre, we had a lot of discussions here in Davos. I'm gonna try not to restart the whole discussion, but we cartoonists have been aware of the world we live in and the responsibility that it implies for the last 10 years. I mean, the Muhammad controversy was the 9-11 of cartoonists. And we have struggled to find answers. We have debated among ourselves and with society. One of the things we did, for example, Plantu, my colleague in France, created Cartooning for Peace. And then six years ago, we created together a foundation in Switzerland whose honorary chairman is Kofi Annan. So it's a network of, let's say, more than 140 cartoonists. And we want to defend freedom of expression in a spirit of dialogue. And in Geneva, we are giving every two years a price for cartoonists, not only for their talent, but for their courage. One of them, I wanna talk about one of them, Zunar of Malaysia. I hope you can see the picture. This is the cartoon he did on Prime Minister of Malaysia who, as you may know, has been involved in a huge corruption scandal, the public fund of Malaysia. It's a one billion scandal. A lot of that money ended up on his account. Zunar has been relentless in denouncing the corruption of the government and he has been harassed for years. He is now under a travel ban and his trial is next week in Malaysia. And he is facing nine charges that can go up to 43 years in jail for denouncing corruption in his cartoons. Another very courageous cartoonist whom you know is Gadot from Kenya. And Gadot got the same, he was a colorate of the prize in Geneva last May. This is a same story. Gadot has been very courageously denouncing corruption in Africa and Kenya in that part of the world. It's really endemic. It's such a cancer. And he has been denouncing that through his cartoons. He's been very courageous. He is the star of the whole region of East Africa and he has been sacked from the daily on the main newspaper in Kenya. That's a cartoon he did about the president from Tanzania. He's from Tanzania. And you see the president spoiled by the graces of corruption, incompetence and crionism. So those two cartoonists are the living example of courage and they have both paid the price in their life for this courage. And their courage is a message to keep people aware. And I guess that's one of the powers of cartooning. That you can have a snapshot and encapsulate so much, so many of the else. I mean, here we see crionism, incompetence and corruption. But the power of it also is that it's easy to understand. It reaches the masses. So the power is stronger that way. At the time now where we see information flows, we have the fourth industrial revolution, which we've spoken a lot about here in Davos. This idea that we're interconnected and that there are ways for information flows. But even though you have these information flows and the ability to get it, you still see some countries and some areas trying to clamp down and stopping these information flows. So how do you see the role of international networks, such as those that you've set up, to try to keep the voice alive even when those particular cartoons are either in jail or under pressure? Yeah, we're trying to... There are a few organizations that defend the professional journalists, reporters without borders and such. Yeah, CPJ. But the case of cartoonists is kind of different. It's specific. So we're trying now with the American Association of Editorial Cartonists, with the Cartonist Rights Network International in the US with cartooning for peace and others and reporters with... We're trying to organize together a collective response to that challenge. And let's take the example of Muza Kart. He's the cartoonist of the Turkish opposition newspaper Kumuriyet and he was arrested in December along with the editor, along with a dozen other journalists. He was arrested. He said at the time, for the last years, I've been trying to describe what's going on in my country through cartoons and now through caricatures. And now I find myself in one of them. What are they gonna tell the world? Just that the truth is I was arrested for cartooning, for doing cartoons. And he's been in jail ever since. And so the newspaper, Kumuriyet, has been publishing this blank space every day as a testimony to that. And then cartoonists from all around the world have been sending cartoons to the newspaper and they have been publishing those cartoons in his space, in homage to Muza Kart. That's the situation as it is. And you don't have to be in Turkey to feel that sort of pressure. I did this cartoon two years ago in the New York Times about Turkish democracy. And with Erdogan, of course, as a slicing slowly, Turkish democracy, the way you do with a kebab. And this cartoon, as was reported by the New York Times, this cartoon was shown by a demonstrator in a demonstration in Turkey and he was arrested by the police and interrogated for what? For insulting the Turkish flag. Yes, this is also one of the problems actually when you have dissent, you can get in trouble for different things because you can use a different way of, for example, like this.  And Antoine, I want to turn to you because of course the experience of South Africa and the role of artists to raise awareness, to push against apartheid. When we were discussing earlier the role of having positive narratives, you said what does it mean to have a positive narrative is really the end result being positive in terms of how you push people and move people into action. So I want to ask you, not only through, of course, importantly the medium of film, but the experience of South Africa in terms of pushing and the struggle and the role of artists in that struggle. Thank you. It was a fascinating time in South Africa during apartheid because you had to do what you felt was right to speak out. And while Mandala and the ANC were in exile and in prison, he made the call and said, no matter where you are in the world or in South Africa, do whatever you can to speak out against apartheid. So I think the creative community was at the forefront and took on the struggle long before, let's say the university students rebelled in the early late 80s. And that's the thing about creativity that I think no matter where you are in the world, you look beyond just your own sort of space. And I think it was quite amazing, whether it was a filmmaker like Woody Allen who said none of my films can play in South Africa or musicians doing the same thing. And we in South Africa tried to do whatever we could, whether it was cartoonists, musicians, a bureau is a legend also in our country and in the world. But for me, it was film because I was working in film and let me make a film. It was my first film. I knew nothing about the craft. It was a segregated society and film was an industry reserve for white people. It was as blatant as that. There were no people of color in film involved in filmmaking. So I decided, what can I do? Let me make a film speaking out against apartheid. It was a bold, crazy decision at the time. We had all race groups. The director was white, I'm Indian, African people involved in the film. And we did it on the run from the police because we, but we just felt that we had to do something. And this film, when it got finished, we couldn't even go see it with the director in the same theater because the cinemas were segregated. The authorities arrested me, put me into jail for one night. They were trying to get the film. But these are things that you have to deal with. It's a part of that whole journey if you wanna speak out. And like the cartoonists that get arrested in our country, our current president brought legal action against the bureau for depicting him in a bad light. And it got thrown out of court. So certainly I think as we discussed earlier that the art and descent and the creative community, we're fighting everywhere in the world. We're speaking out in whichever form we work in. And it's the battles that we take on. And then next year, next week, you'll see something else, different battlegrounds, same battle as we discussed. I want to ask you on the commercial side of things, because when you're producing a film, indeed you have a message, you want to entertain, you want to move people. You also have to try to, it's an industry, you have to try to make money for it. So how do those concerns come in? I mean, are there moments when you say, okay, I choose actually to work on a film that will, this one has a particular message, it may flop or so forth, but it's important for me to get it out there. And otherwise sometimes it's something that's much more, let's say, popular and so forth, but not necessarily... Well, actually in those early days, it was actually very interesting because I have a financial partner who I would say, okay, I want to make this movie and he'll tell me how crazy I am, nobody's going to go see it. You're going to lose money. And so fine, I look at all of this and we try and play with the budget. So in the case of that first film, it was called Place of Weeping and we made it for $50,000 or like under $10,000. And so I said, we just have to do it. And then subsequently I did a film called Yesterday which is about HIV and AIDS. And again, these are dramatic stories. It's not documentary, you're taking people through a journey where they are emotionally engaged. And so in these films, which we do for as little money as possible, what I found in many instances that you actually find audiences, people actually want to see it. It actually did become commercially successful even though everybody, including myself, thought, well, how much can we lose on this and let's do it because it has a social conscience. So I tell people that and they say, well, I'm not sure about that, because business people are generally extremely skeptical and also very naive about telling stories, creativity and all of that because that's not like a bankable business in most senses.  Mina, I want to come to you because in addition to the different industries we've spoken about and artists, there is let's say international norms or freedoms that countries say that they've signed up to even if they don't adhere to them, the right to peaceful assembly. So if you happen to be protesting but holding up a cartoon, you should be able to continue and the right to and the freedom of expression. How do you see those freedoms and rights today? And are they under pressure? I believe most of us feel that they are under pressure. Why are they under pressure and what can be done about it? They certainly are under pressure. I think we can say frankly that there is a democracy deficit that's going on in the world. And I think that freedom of expression, association, assembly, the right to dissent if you wish is a democratic value. And if you have countries where a liberalism and autocracy is coming back or is there now, it means the first pressure, the first victims is people who speak out. And so you always see that's gonna happen to the artistic community, to the dissenters, to human rights defenders. They're calling them of whatever nature, journalists, media, it's gonna be under pressure. So it's a global phenomenon right now and people are learning sadly to restrict themselves. And until it comes to a point when they fight back and there's gotta be a fight back. So what can the world do? I think the thing is always to remember that no matter how restricted the society is, how restricted the country is, there's always dissent somewhere. Sometimes we keep it underneath, it's put a lid on it, we don't let it come out and it's in our homes, it's in our apartments, we're just hiding, but at some point it blows up. And my advice to governments consistently is that you've got to let this out because if you don't let it out peacefully, then the chances of it coming out in another way rise in another way that we don't want. And so whether it's people protesting and we looked at the Arab awakenings, for example, in the 2000 and from 2011, and you look at them and where the state put pressure on the people and reattacked them, they descended into war because people at some point after being attacked say, we're gonna fight and they fought back in Libya, in Syria because the state refused to allow people the pressure. So what can the international community do? I think for us all, it's first of all, it's that solidarity. We've gotta come back and the solidarity is important and it's moral solidarity, it's talking to each other and I like what the cartoonists are doing, sending their cartoons into Turkey because the cartoonist is arrested. So solidarity is so important and anybody who has been in this struggle will tell you that nothing, it's knowing that you're not alone that helps. But let's be clear that each struggle in South Africa, in Turkey, in Saudi Arabia, in Kenya has to be fought by the people themselves of that country. All we can do is support them from the outside as international actors. The UN has got all these elaborate mechanisms to try and support. But it's really not, again, one of the things I tell a lot of people is that the UN will not solve your problems for you. You don't think that Human Rights Council or United Nations is gonna solve the problems. They can support it, but if you don't have the energy yourselves internally to do it, you're in trouble. But once you start moving, then you start seeing support coming through and supporting it. And I think human beings are very resilient and very resilient and very strong. And they don't give up easily. So I'm kind of very optimistic that whether it's Trump or Brexit or the illiberals and Edogan and the rest and Ethiopia and Rwanda, I think at the end of the day, they will be probably sooner rather than later because now it's becoming clear across the world that these illiberals, these extremists, the intolerance, if you wish, are so many that somewhere we have gotta fight back and say it's time. And maybe there's a good place to make alliances here with businesses and getting businesses to join in this because they stand to lose. Instability in the world hurts business. So it's time for them now to join. The rest of us have been trying to work on these things together. But you know, some people, and I completely agree with everything you say, but some people say, well, at what price does freedom of expression come? Whether it's a personal price, often, and you mentioned the Arab world, what happens in the Middle East is that you say, well, it's security or freedom. Do you want the freedom to express yourselves or would you rather have security? And it's this, I mean, truly a false kind of equation, but somehow it can be sold to people that you give some freedom up so that we can provide you security. How do you push back against that, especially when a country is unstable? For you. I'm sorry, go ahead. Freedom of expression is priceless. Yeah. There you go. Quote of the panel. And I think we've got to say it's both, why should you, it's like telling people you can only walk, but you can't chew gum at the same time. I mean, look, we're human beings, we can do two things at the same time. We can have security and we can have expression. Who says that, who decides to choose for us? Why can't we have both? That's the answer. And I think, yes, you're right. There's going to be pushback. And there's going to be alarmists coming on, saying you shouldn't speak. But often the people who are pushing back are those who are doing nasty things. The security argument is an excuse for torture, is an excuse for corruption.  I mean, corruption leads to repression. Somebody is stealing. Let's not call it corruption. Somebody's looting, because that's what it is. They just loot our money. And if you call it that, then they're trying to hide it by then suppressing everybody else. Because if it's security, it's the issue. We will be able to handle it and say, okay, this we can see it. But it's always looting from South Africa. The reason why, why it appears in trouble is the looting. The reason why Edo Ghan is hiding is the looting. I mean, these are looters. They're not even, they're looters. Yeah. Okay, so I want to give you all the chance to pose questions to the panel. I could probably continue this conversation for another two days. So please raise your hands if you have a question. We will have a mic roving and identify yourself. So any questions from the audience? Okay, we have a lady at the back here and then we'll come to the front row. Good morning. My name is Lona. Yeah, I'm low minor. And I'm from Kenya and calling ourselves active citizens. So in Kenya over the last couple of years, you've seen a change. And I'm going to just share this to the panel because it's both cartoonists and active citizens and use of media. So we've seen a change where young people are starting to use social media to talk about the challenges. Corruption has been a big deal and how they're dealing with it, getting on the street. And there's almost a new rebirth of people who are not necessarily affiliated to association, to very much like organizations. So I want to pose two kind of, two full questions. One, what we're seeing with cartoonists and people who work in the media is a suppression of the media space where the government is using the financial muscle to sort of bully the media and in the process, bully the people who work there. And so cartoonists who could very easily draw cartoons in the media. Now the media is getting a challenge of what will not pay you for your business if you keep this person on, which is a new way that hadn't happened before. So economic suppression. And how do you start dealing with it? In a world that's really fast moving towards that. So that's one. And two, what do you think about the growth of social media in creating dissent? And now we're seeing a government starting to shut down the internet for security purposes and it's a way to create silence. How do you think we're going to be able to bypass some of these challenges? Okay, if I can come to you, Patrick, on the issue of using financial pressure on newspapers to stop cartoonists. Yeah, well, I hope we're not on the record because that's the clever way to go against the cartoonist is the economic pressure and that's the clever way to shut up people. And clever autocrats have understood that. For example, I've a big admirer of my colleague Korax in Serbia. He's been drawing Milosevic during all those very difficult years. He's such a hero in his country. But the thing is Milosevic was clever. He understood that people needed to vent and that cartoons were not gonna, they were not gonna topple him. So he let that happen. He let the cartoons be published. Only the magazine where the cartoons were published was being squeezed economically. So, and Zunar in Malaysia, I don't think he has a newspaper. He's posting his cartoon on his website. I don't know how he makes a living. That's the other question. Your freedom of expression is cheap.  But even his webmaster was arrested and so pressure is moving to that space as well. And I'm not, yeah, social media is a good space for freedom of expression to move to. But then as we have seen in many countries, it's also, the internet is a double-edged sword because it's also a good way to track down people and then your followers might be at risk as well. So it's quite, it's not that simple. Hey, but this is an important point about that. Many people now say it's great because we do have social media. You do have ways where you can share clips either through mobile sharing apps or the internet. But you still need the large scale, whether it's getting films into cinema or distribution. You still need newspapers that publish cartoons. So let's say the traditional outlet. How did they push back against the pressures of commercial pressures that are used for political reasons? Well, social media is also very easy. It's very easy to go and start a fight on Twitter. It is not like, and sometimes it doesn't lead like to something, I see it in Saudi a lot, people just go and it's good that people are venting, but spending like seven hours just talking to yourself on a computer also sometimes is not right. You need to go work hard. And that is some concepts like freedom of expression is amazing, but why do we have that kind of like, I'm just gonna go and fight with the world? I wanna make, for me, freedom of expression should be also responsible. You need to create that place for people to live. And for example, when I work in Saudi Arabia, yes, I wanna scream about things about women's rights. And I want to say a lot of things and it really frustrates me that I cannot drive, I cannot move without my signature from a mail, but to create a film that will move someone who is very conservative and change their perception of the world is something, for me, is more valuable than going just online and posting something and not going anywhere with it, not changing anything on reality. And I think it's very important to understand that it is, it's not whether it's in film or writing a novel or whatever kind of art that we really need to create, to have a long-term goal of where we are going, what we want to achieve in that country or that social space. And for me, it is not only about immediate reward, it is about creating a path where we can move forward and we can create effective change if maybe sometimes we won't see it in our generation, but hopefully we pave the way for a new generation to take the flag and continue fighting. And that is the thing, we need to understand, it is an ongoing struggle and it is not immediate and nothing is coming immediate. And if you want something that comes, all of a sudden I think it is gonna be a revolution that breaks down and we don't know what happens, it is not calculated, it's not right. And that is what we want, is we want a systematic change that leads to a better life for everyone, for diversity, tolerance, and all kinds of. Okay, so there was a question here. I just want to add to the point you are making that what I've discovered is that we as the creative people, the cartoons, the filmmakers, the writers, we do what we do because we feel compelled to do it because there's something in us that is telling a story or whichever medium. But what it also does is that there are millions of people around or thousands of people that have a point of view. Some may be on the fence, some may be in different, looking at what we say differently and then they realize, okay, well, you know what, actually that's where I wanna be and that's how the cartoonist builds their audience and readers and filmmakers likewise, but it gives them the opportunity to be provoked and many of them are afraid to speak out also so they can hang on to whatever they are identifying with. And I think that's very important because that's how that community builds because ordinarily we should all just fail otherwise. So I guess also during on that, this idea of creating a culture of people maybe some issues aren't thought of in that way, this idea of having a prime minister who wants to become a billionaire, that one cartoon almost encapsulates everything that we've been hearing about Malaysia and reading in endless articles. So I think this idea of how do you create the culture where people say, okay, actually, this is wrong, I have to take a position on this. But that's hard to form at a time when we have so many different forms of information coming in at you, you can get distracted in so many different ways. So this systematic approach of time and again keeping it up. And I guess that's again one of the, as a newspaper person, one of the joys of having a daily newspaper. And this is an everyday struggle for the long term. I want to come to this lady who's patiently waited to ask her question and we can continue the conversation. Hi, I'm Shantel Wong. I'm a global shaper from the Hong Kong hub. So my question's kind of two parts. The first is, well I set up an art space in Hong Kong after the umbrella movement to make sure that creative awakening and form of creative expression can continue to be nurtured. But I'm also, I guess, going through an existential crisis because on the one hand like art is, it's a form of expression, but it is also criticized that it's very specific community, right? So we also run refugee programs there to mobilize, build capacity and leadership skills within the refugee community in Hong Kong. So there's kind of this split identity of doing art and doing social work. And so my question on the first hand is, is there a time that's more specific that we should need to do more activism and radical work? And then the time for art is not a priority. I see that yours is like very much married, your art and activism. So that's maybe something that you're already working on, but I guess from my perspective. And then also when there was an economic crisis, when the first budget cuts is always art, right? So again, I think that echoes, is there a time that art is not a priority? Wrong audience, they're all gonna shout back, it's a priority, but no, I think it's a valid point. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Or is it that certain art forms are more relevant in times of crisis than others, but are metaphysical questions and philosophical questions not a priority then? So, multiple. Yes, sometimes it's seen as almost like a luxury, but. You know, the cutting of budgets and those kind of things. I mean, I think what art generally, it's a single person or a community of a few people. And so budgets never bothered me because I just felt that we have to do what we have to do. And if we don't have the money, you do what you can for whatever you can rustle up together. So, you know, I think you're pushed by the journey of what you're trying to tell. And when you're doing that, you know, you can just cut back in your own space with the people and the community and that you're working with because they actually are like-minded, so you can't pay somebody, you know. If I wanted, I did a little movie in South Africa called Serafina. I went to Whoopi Goldberg because I thought it would help get people around the world to see it. She said, fine, I'll come. You know, she was earning a million dollars or two million dollars a film and she did it for pretty much a fraction of that, you know, very little. And I made her a partner in the film. She did very well, so everybody won. Yeah, so I guess coming up with creative ways of meeting those budgetary challenge. But this idea of artists as activists, I mean, clearly the paths you've taken are artists and activists, but some would say actually they see it as two distinct roles, more to entertain, to bring beauty. Can it be divided? Should it be divided? I think it's a very much an individual choice. I think it's your choice and your decision how you wanna do it. I think nobody asks artists to be activists. It's really the choice. Some wanna do art for our sake and others wanna do art for the purpose. So there's no easy answer and it's really your conscience is gonna have to decide what you wanna do. If you wanna do that and if you wanna keep working in refugee camps, not necessarily bad as I said, people can walk and chew gum at the same time and I think that's the clear thing. But I think the bigger issue which is being raised is the question about survival. Whether you're an artist in descent or an artist struggling whatever you are, how do you survive? And that's the question I think for many people who I know who in associations who are doing activism work, keep asking if your job is taken away because you're an activist, you're trying to move something, you're trying to make a film, there are many forms of activism but you can't get a living. What should you do? And again, there's no easy answer but I think there are communities now building and I think we can learn for example from the anti-apartheid struggle. Well, there's a lot of sharing of resources. I mean, I think the anti-apartheid struggle probably is one of the most interesting struggles because it took a long, long time. People were dead broke and then someone's giving you a loaf of bread and sharing and there's a point where I think we as human beings have to decide what is our priorities and what is there but survival questions are very real and you're often left alone and who, in fact, I like to ask my colleagues I work with is where did you sleep last night? Because we assume that because you have a job that somebody has a place to sleep in. Where did you sleep? Did you sleep in your house or slept on the streets in the borrowed place? So you've got to keep asking we have a responsibility among ourselves, especially now from the international community where you're much safer than those on the front line to ask the question of where did you sleep? Where did you sleep last night? Patrick, this point of solidarity might have raised more than once now. Clearly we see that in certain communities but also some artists don't know how to tap into that don't either have the connections haven't traveled or so forth. So how can there be outreach for them? How can there be sort of support for those that are not well-known? Yeah, that's a good question. I would like to allude to a point that you raised that is important because cartoons, cartoonists have been on the spot, of course, through the controversies and so they've been at the center of a clash of civilization. And I want to talk about the positive side of cartooning the positive power of it and how it can reach out to that specific field of the media and criticism. And I've been doing projects called CrossFit Pens. One of them was in Kenya, you know about it. And it's bringing together cartoonists from different camps because very often those societies are divided and fighting different camps and cartoonists can be used by one camp against the other. And then they can become, you know, protagonists of the conflict, which is a terrific perspective. So bringing together cartoonists and working together to address the issues, the hot issues of their country through images. And there it goes to the power of images. And the latest project I did was talking about the art of descent is in the United States and it's about death penalty. Maybe it's a kind of descent to be having this conversation in the US. So the idea was to bring together not only political cartoonists, my fellow cartoonists in the US and their view on the capital punishment, but inmates. We reached out to inmates in death row with my wife and Frédéric. We visited four maximum security prisons over the course of one year and we were able to gather art. We asked them specifically to do art as a testimony to what's going on on death row because people don't know. In the US people are not, they don't know about it. And that's the power of an image. You can have an inmate draw the reality he's in. And that's such a powerful testimony. So when you put together those two things, art from inside and art from outside death row, that's an exhibition that is going on in the US, touring the US. It was in Los Angeles in North Carolina. It's in Ohio. It's going to go to Texas.  You bring out discussion. Art touches your heart, whatever your opinion on the matter. You just look at an image and you're being touched and then you start thinking and then you can start having a conversation. So that's something I wanted to talk about is the positive aspect of art and of cartoons. And I think also the positive aspect of provocation because I think when you say the word provoke, people think it's always provoke negatively to offend. But actually it's provoke to act, provoke to think. Provoke a discussion. Yeah, provoke a discussion, exactly. So I think, and that is really an important part of art. I want to come to you, Hatha, but first I want to see if we have any questions from the audience before we continue our discussion. Lady at the back here, thank you. Good morning. Thank you very much for that session. My name is Geeta Kehar and I'm from London. I'm a solicitor in London. My question is we've talked a lot about, I know this is the art of descent, but artists also with the platform that you have, you are in a position to provide solutions as well or ideas about solutions. And how often do you as artists think, because I think it's, you flag issues, issues which are difficult to discuss, issues which are tried to sweep under the carpet. But how often do you look at issues which everybody is talking about? Like, for example, the breakdown of communities which is led in England, for example, to a Brexit vote. How often do you look at those issues and say, oh, actually, I have some thoughts on this, now let me use the platform that I have as an artist to suggest possible solutions. And actually one of the things that has been put to me is soaps. There's EastEnders in England, there's Dallas that I'm sure many people have watched in the past. And they are actually apparently a very unifying thing for society because everybody's, you know, can find access to a television, there's been a bit of a generalization, but in England that probably is the case. And it gives you something to talk about. So when you meet people you don't know, when there is these disparate communities you can't get on, they can find something common to discuss, it brings them together. And who shot JR, if anybody ever watched Dallas, is the question that sort of lots of people talk about. So I just wondered how often you look at art from that perspective or with that objective. Hey Fendi, do you see yourself as providing solutions? I don't provide solutions, sorry. I wish I can say that, but for me as an artist it's just like, I always come to film with a point of view for sure. I'm not coming from like, it is not coming from nowhere, but for me it's more opposing a question and hoping people will find solutions for themselves, will move forward, and something will inspire something in them to find their own way and find their own solution. And as an artist I don't want to feel like I know more than anybody else. I barely know how I'm gonna finish that film. That is the thing, I want them to see that with me. We'll figure it out together. And that is the power of artists to engage people and be on the same level with people. And I feel it's very important for me to be in that space with the people, not like trying to lead them in a certain way. But certainly I want to have my point of view heard and I want them to see where I'm coming from. And coming back to the ladies here as a question about activism and art, and I wanna say something about Iranian cinema for example, it's a huge cinema. Now it's a winning award all over the world and this is amazing. And it is a very solid act of activism, but it is also accepted in a very totalitarian, very conservative regime. And that is very smart. And that is very smart that we have artists that are surviving every day, earning their bread and moving forward. And moving to sort of their societies forward as well.  And they have, they go, Iranian filmmakers, they go with the, like, machines in the streets. And, but it's amazing what they produce. And it's amazing it has identity. It poses philosophical questions about life. And it is very refined form of cinema. And it is activism. And for me, activism is not going and punching people in the face. It's like hoping people will see something beyond. And I think it is very important to move from that feel like if I'm an activist, I have to go and have a slogan and go down the street and have this anger. I think it is more of like how we can maneuver this situation and break through it. So, and art is also not elitist. Like sometimes some governments will cut, of course art will go. And as an artist, I have to tell you, if you're an artist, you always have to ask for money. It's a great place to be here. Make connections. So, but art never, like even people who are building houses, right? They are like very like simple workers. They sing while they're doing it. And that is an amazing form of art. That is what keeps us moving forward, singing, dancing. And we need to celebrate that kind of art sometimes because it gets, we want to go to fancy galleries and stuff like that. But there is more kind of art that is very moving coming from places that sometimes we take for granted. I want to go back to the question that was posed from the lady from London. This idea of if you watch soap opera or you watch, you know, if there's a medium that unites people, it's almost creating a community. And so, you know, of course there's the famous book of Imagined Communities by Benedict Anderson of how the printing press has allowed certain communities to come about. And of course we have that even on social media and Twitter, the followers you have and the communities that are being built. So I guess in different art forms, I want to ask you all to comment on the idea of how community building can happen through these art forms and also bridging at a time that we see polarization.  Sometimes it needs to be, sometimes it becomes that way. But it can also be an undercurrent and you can be subversive without necessarily showing yourself. So I want to ask you about community building and also being subversive without necessarily on the radar. Well, in South Africa, we've got the daily soaps and they actually have incorporated social issues into them. So if there are subjects that are happening, that are current, topical, because they shoot them a week earlier or two weeks earlier, they actually can do that. And it's actually been very interesting that it then begins discussion, people on the bus, on the train, what about that? And their characters are playing roles that are making them think and talk. So I was very happy to see that on the soaps that has started. So universities, students are rebelling. It comes into the narrative of the storyline of the TV soap. But I think art in every form is crucial. It's part, as you said, it's part of our lives, whether we are singing, we are talking, we're drawing and whatever we're doing. I mean, it's an issue that is used by every side. It's used by the totalitarians. They have praise songs for those of us who grew up in one party state, or praise songs we learned to sing for the great and great leader who was top in everything. So art is useful. It's a tool to bring us together, whether it's television, it's movies, and propaganda films are there for everybody. For every totalitarian state, there's propaganda films that are being put out. So I think within the context of social media as well now, with this younger generation that will not know who shot JR, I can assure you.  I think the challenge has to be, as you said, getting out and meeting real people. You've gotta actually meet. I mean, communities are built upon trust. I know you. It's not just a virtual person, but I know you. I can trust you. I can read your expressions when I talk to you. That's how you build communities and build them up. So there's been, there's a lot of discussion in my community around whether Facebook led to the, whether Facebook was, whether Facebook can lead to revolutions. It can't, and I think the hard work of organizing has to be done. But it's good to see it not alone. I mean, what social media does is tell you that your thinking is not unique and it's not weird and it's not strange, which is great. But then the hard work has to be done of human beings need contact with each other. And I think that's where then we can build communities of whatever nature begins solving solutions. I think I'm always nervous about artists giving solutions, you know? Because I just think of, again, of the one party state, I think of the communist states giving solutions. And so I like us to put it there and then we can have a better discussion. I think the idea of discussing and provoking discussion is much more what we should be doing.  But I think it's the freedom of expression should give us the sense that let's keep debating and let's keep discussing. Because actually something you think is a solution may turn out not to be, after a lot of discussion, and then something weak. So I'm a very prevalent advocate of free thought and discussing. Patrick, I want to wrap up with you. Unfortunately, we only have two minutes before we have to close the session.  One more cartoon. Let me bring up one cartoon by, if we are going to say it, Hania Bass, a Palestinian from Syria. And it speaks to the power of that simple art, the cartoon, which is, so every child draws and then they forget how to draw and they become businessmen. But it's so simple. In this image that he did a few years ago, he was in Syria. And he did this image where the flower obviously represents, you know, the revolution and the hope that it brought. And he got into trouble with his cartoons and especially that image. And he was called by the police which had visited him once. And he understood at that point that he had to go. And he fled to Lebanon and then found a way to come to Geneva where he had an exhibition that was the excuse. And he was the winner of the same cartooning for Peace Prize two years ago. And he's now safe in Switzerland. He was able to bring his family. He got asylum, which is rare in Switzerland. But we could really demonstrate that he was being personally sought and persecuted. He's now safe. He has one kid, another one was born in Geneva. The family is safe. But one of his friends, another cartoonist, very good friend of him, drawing at the same time in Syria, didn't make it out, was arrested by the police. And we learned just last year that he died in prison. So that speaks to the troubling, disrupting power of a simple image. It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us. I think the Syrian Revolution, for many people, presented the beauty and the strength of art. And it was interesting to see, actually, you would hear of defections from the army or defections from the government. Most people wouldn't pay attention. But you'd hear which soap artist would leave the country and announce that they were with uprising. And that would garner much more attention than any of the politicians and everything, because people associated themselves with them. They felt that they knew them. They felt they were close to them. Thank you very much all for attending. And I want to thank our amazing panel. Please think about these issues not only here as you have the last two days in Davos, but also as you go on through life and support artists and support the arts because we need to continue these conversations. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you.