Now we still got 30 seconds. Oh, okay, now I'll go ahead and get started. I won't make you wait that last agonizing 30 seconds. First of all, thanks for everybody coming. This is the last session on the last day, and if you all are nearly as tired as I am, I appreciate you actually walking into yet another session room. And I love that there's this huge room for the last session of the last day. But anyway, thanks for coming. I'm Addison Berry. I work for Lullabot. I've worked for them for about five and a half years. And we started out as a training and consulting company, and now we're really focused on strategy, design, and development. But we still have our training stuff. Which is mostly focused now on our site DrupalizeMe, which is our video training stuff. So we do more online training than we do in-person training now. And I'm now technically the director of education at Lullabot. But most of that means working with this. And we'll talk a little bit more about my history of how I got to where I am in the slides. So this session is basically about free educational material resources for the Drupal community. This is not about... I'm not going to talk about the money-making side or that kind of thing. That's not what the focus of this is. What is our community as an open-source community? How are we trying to provide and grow our community and educate our community on the free side of things? Not that money's not involved, but we'll get to that. I also want to say before I dive into this that this is very much just sort of my personal experiences and personal take. I'm sure that I have lots of gaps in the presentation that I'm going to be doing. I've already learned about lots of things here I didn't know about. That's a great thing about going to a con and you're like, what? Who's doing the what? Great. So there probably are going to be lots of gaps and I would like this to be the start of a conversation and not just like some kind of information that's sort of being thrown out at people as some canonical thing. So in terms of that sphere and what I'm talking about here, I'll give you a little background of how I got to where I am. I started out in the Drupal community. I didn't know how to code, didn't know anything was going on and had to teach myself. I did a lot of head-banging and started to kind of get involved with the community a little bit, helping a little bit with documentation. And then Josh Koenig started this thing called the Drupal dojo about five and a half years ago and it was pretty revolutionary because basically he was like, I know Drupal stuff. I know there are lots of people who need to know Drupal stuff. So once a week I'm going to get online and I'm going to share my screen and I'm going to talk about how to do something in Drupal for an hour and share it with whoever wants to come and help. And it was pretty awesome. And the group, he created a group on groups.drupal.org for this and it exploded. Hundreds and hundreds of people were signing up and he was completely overwhelmed. But it was great. Suddenly there was this community of people who wanted to learn and people who were doing lessons but I have to say really it was a person doing lessons. Josh was always like, I need other people to help me do this. Help, help. There were some other things that came up and for me personally it was great because it gave me a place to sort of suddenly engage. Like there was a lesson I could go to, there was a chat channel where all the students would get together and chat and with the instructor and we would all just talk about whatever the topic was for that lesson for the day.   And that was a huge barrier for me entering into this world of like geniuses who were making open-source software, right? So that was like a really big moment for me and then I got deeply involved in the community after that. I tried to... Josh got busy and there weren't enough teachers who were stepping up to teach. I did some teaching and tried to continue the dojo but basically after a while there weren't enough people willing to teach and lead and put other structures in place and so the dojo just sort of drifted. And I basically at that point felt like my energies were better spent elsewhere. So then I moved on to the more manageable task of becoming the documentation team lead for the project. For those of you in the recording who don't get the sarcasm. But I did... I took on the doc lead role and I also got a grant from the Knight Foundation to improve Drupal's documentation. The allergic meant me writing some documentation about how to contribute and traveling all over the world to talk to people about how to contribute to documentation. And I did that for about a year and a half, two years I guess I was doc lead and then I handed that off about two years ago. And I was pretty worn out at the end of that. And I basically stepped back from the community for a while for about a year and a half. I largely removed myself from the community. I focused on work and I focused on going outside, spending time with friends who didn't know anything about Drupal. It was kind of an amazing period of my life. And then in a Denver, Dupalcon Denver in March of this year Brian Hirsch did a presentation about the Drupal Ladder which is an initiative specifically focused on getting people to be able to contribute to core, to Drupal core development. And it's a very systematic thing. We create lessons, you progress through the lessons in a very distinct order to get you to where you need to go. And I got really excited for the first time in a long time about the community education stuff because it felt so focused and I felt like this is something not to sound catty or anything but it sounded like it really had a chance of success. I've been through a lot of disappointments in the community and this seemed focused enough to maybe get somewhere. So I got excited about this again. And in the midst of all of that and I was like okay there's ladder stuff and there's all these cool things that are going on and of course I work in Drupal education. I was just sort of doing my thing in my corner. It's like I need to find out what's happening out there. I need to see what's going on right now with Drupal education and how can I jump into those things and how can I relate that to the excitement I have with Drupal ladder. And that's why this presentation exists because I went to go try and find that stuff and I was like what is going on? Like I couldn't figure out where stuff was. I didn't understand what was happening. Which things are really... Is any of this actually anybody doing anything? I couldn't... There was no... I had no idea how to even start and I was really confused and frustrated. So as I started to pull that stuff together I thought I would share this information. So that's sort of my history. I know it was a bit long-winded but I wanted to give a little perspective in terms of where this list is coming from and my flavor on it because you may and probably will disagree with some of it or have other gaps that I don't even know about that you can fill and I want like that... I expect that. That's where we're coming from here. So when I went through I sort of was trying to compile a list of like all the different stuff that had sort of been going on and I know, and like I said I'm sure that there's stuff that's not on this list but these are sort of the main ones that I was looking at and trying to see what was going on there. And then I sort of tried to start it was a little bit of research to even figure out sort of what's the sort of the status of some of these. So some of these I've grayed out quite a lot because they pretty much, as far as I can discern, are inactive. And then there are others that are sort of grayed out the dojo and the open curriculum skill set stuff because there's still sort of stuff happening but it's certainly not anything resembling full stream and a lot of activity. But I'm going to walk through what these are real quickly here. So Drupal.org documentation, handbooks on Drupal.org. It's there, it exists, there's teams still working on it and that's sort of the, that's the core of our Drupal community education. That's where people go and have gone for a long time. Dojo. So the dojo started five and a half years ago. The dojo still exists. It's really sporadic. There is a group and they talk to each other but in terms of actual lessons going up I don't think any lessons have actually gone up since the beginning of the year or something like that and it kind of comes and goes and spurts. You get quiet for a while then people do a bunch of lessons and it gets quiet, kind of a thing. They had a spin-off, well actually there's sort of two spin-offs from that, the Kata and the Dolly or the Drupal Open Learning Initiative which were efforts sort of around making project-based learning experiences, right? So we're going to build XYZ site and a bunch of students will build the site and we'll have project management and all of these things. And as far as I can tell, just certainly the resources never really coalesced to make that actually really happen and as far as I can tell those are not active projects at all. OpenCurriculum is in the curriculum and training group on groups.drupal.org and it is a larger discussion about creating a curriculum that's an open-source, generally available curriculum that anybody who wants to teach Drupal can use and specifically they're sort of a subset the first sort of I guess major step in getting that going was coming up with these skill sets like defining what is it that people are going, what are the goals and how do we break things down sort of a vocabulary as it were for training materials and assessments and all of these things. And so that got really far and there's actually quite a lot of stuff that is on the group with that and there's like a nice huge colored flowchart that has all of this stuff but now it's just kind of hanging out and nobody's really actually doing stuff with it but there's a lot of work that went into that and it's sitting there waiting to be used. Drupal Guilds was the idea of actually creating like a guild in Drupal where there would be mentors and you would sort of like journeymen into a role and work your way through guild levels and it would be sort of like a personal recommendation building and sort of not exactly certification this is one of those things that was sort of like not exactly certification but you know your guild member this person's been in the guild for so long and they've walked through these steps and these people vouch for their work kind of a thing and that's no longer active. Skill Compass is Johann Falk launched this site this year skillcompass.org and basically it's a way to aggregate Drupal material from all over the web and categorize it according to what it is that you would be doing and then you can put it into a tree that's like okay I want to learn Drupal, I want to learn Drupal theming I want to learn how to work with node templates or I want to learn how to install a theme and you can work your way through the tree and then find the materials that are out on the web that relate to that particular thing you want to do. Drupal ladders the project that I'm involved with now that Brian Hirsch started again that's building a series of lessons in a very specific one direction order no branching and treeing kind of thing really to take you from the bottom rung of I don't really know what's going on to being a contributor to Drupal core. And then of course we have just sort of Drupal camp trainings that are happening lots of camps, the con has training prior to it bad camp has a free event and has free training days so there's a lot of education that's available from going to just local regional events and then the DA has started this global training day does anybody, how many people here know what the global training day is or has heard of it before? Okay so maybe a third the Drupal association is trying to spread the word about Drupal and get people sort of bootstrapped into what it is so they started this initiative the global training day to get trainers all over the world to provide introductory Drupal training on the same day and then promote that and it should be very low fee or free. And I think there was one I believe in June which we took part in there's another one coming up September and then I think we have another one planned for December so and they do provide the Aquia Hello Drupal curriculum if you want to use that or you can use your own curriculum and just take part in the training day so that's the stuff I came up with that I sort of am attached to or have some sense of what's going on with it there may be other stuff and if people have other things they're like wait a second there's also this awesome thing it's stupid you know feel free to talk into the mic and tell me that I'm cool with that but there's also like this is a lot of stuff there's a lot of different things going on and over quite a period of time so I still was confused even though I kind of got myself down to at least understanding that I'm just sort of like what is the goal what is the purpose here like how do I help where do I go the thing is there's lots of different people who have different goals like we're community education we want to educate the community we want to help each other as teachers it's really vague and fuzzy and a lot of people have different understandings of what that means and they have different specific goals within that arena and so everybody's just sort of doing their thing which is not a bad thing that's quite the open source way right like do lots of iterations and then the best one wins kind of a thing it's just we aren't really to the best one wins or the focused effort coming together apart yet so there's a lot of stuff we've thrown out there and there's a lot of stuff that's just sitting stagnant so I didn't really feel a lot better when I got on the stage of things I still thought that it was overwhelming so when I'm stepping back to look at it this is sort of I'm sorry for the geek plus plus minus minus but when I look at like our community and trying to do this and the problems that we may or may not have like to me like some of the greatest strengths that we have is that we do have a lot of really great ideas and we have a lot of people with really great expertise people who really know their shit in our community it's massive and we have a lot of people who actually know what's going on and we have a huge community to try things out with and people who are really excited and willing to learn you know it's like in a lot of smaller communities just trying to prototype or figure out how to do something when you have no one who can use it and give you feedback it's really difficult we have a massive community that we can try this stuff out on we can experiment quite a lot but of course we end up with our resources spread out a lot because everybody is sort of doing a different project with their own vision and their own goal or their own specific end in mind so the resources get spread out which makes it really difficult for us to move any one forward in a meaningful way it's also super hard for someone coming from the outside to figure out how to help or get involved at all it took me forever to make that list of like going through groups.drupal.org and just googling around the internet like just tons of stuff that's out there and it's really hard to figure out it took me a long time to figure out what was out there and then I was like wait is this one even active and I'm like looking at posts from two years ago and I'm like hmm maybe I shouldn't get involved in this one because I don't think I'm going to be talking to myself it's so it's really really hard to get people actually working together I mean when you want to work on Drupal Core you can go to Core Office Hours you can figure out getting into the issue queue and you can just start working on things it's surprisingly because everybody says oh my god it's so confusing but you know what working on code in Drupal is so clear compared to doing many other things in our community so it's a big problem for us yeah like if I want to help on the views module it's relatively clear at least where to get started we need lots of things for success this is just a bullet list I kind of just came up with just to give me some focus in terms of my thoughts and this is not specific to education and the stuff I'm talking about it's not specific to Drupal this is like open source this is the kind of stuff you have in a particular volunteer environment but being able to focus our effort collaborating with other community projects because education is not in a silo by itself like we're not just making stuff up out of the air and then just training people like we're related to lots of other things that are going on I mean the core mentoring hours and office hours and all the stuff that's happening there like that is also education when people are in the issue queue and they're getting their patches reviewed that is education so we're not in a silo and we need to also look at the bigger picture I think sustainable resource models this is just again a classic open source problem we're volunteers at the end of the day I gotta make the money and what ends up happening is you have a volunteer or two volunteers who get very excited about something they get gung-ho, they work their asses off and they burn out and they burn out hard and then everything just goes when that one moving factor goes away we need to find some way to keep regenerating that energy in new people which is also related to turning the learners into contributors this was a huge, huge problem with the dojo people would come, they would learn and they would leave and they didn't turn themselves into contributors who were teaching and helping sustain the dojo itself and it just flat lined and this is just again generally true of stuff in open source it's really hard but if you can't teaching is great and spreading the word but if we can't become a self-sustaining thing then we're not getting ourselves very far so to address those we had a boff earlier today which was fascinating it was about training, we just got together and everybody was doing training and what was fascinating to me and the reason I say fascinating is because, because you're like but the reason I found it really fascinating is because it just was this classic here are all these smart, passionate people who have a lot of awesome ideas and want to do something and we're all like, I didn't know you were doing that or huh, yes, yes it's like communication you know again this whole thing of like you can't find what projects are going on or how to get engaged with them we don't even effectively communicate everybody who's trying to move in this direction unless we get to an event and you meet some people here and some people there there is a group on groups.drupal.org there are many groups on groups.drupal.org that have something to do with education but I would like to propose that we use the curriculum and training group as the main place to communicate and you know other education efforts or initiatives have their own group on groups.drupal.org but there's nothing to say that we can't create you know on groups you can create sub pages there's nothing to say we can't create a page that says these are the active education initiatives that are going on in the Drupal community here is a two sentence or three sentence summary of what this initiative is about what the goals are and what it's trying to serve and here is how you can get involved with that like I mean I'm talking just super simple here I'm not trying to get like into big vision like can we just you know sort of start to coordinate what it is that people are actively working on so if you're working on something you have a project or an initiative let's start to bring that information together so when someone comes in that's new and they want to find out like here this is our current state of things we can get into all kinds of conversations about maintaining the page and then stuff gets old but can we just microphone please I just want to say I love you I really do but that list that you talked about that inventory does exist so I'm going to put that at the top of the group so you can find it awesome thank you that would be lovely so but anyway you know and that's like a very simple thing but I do think and I haven't done this yet because I've been just mulling on these things honestly but I would sort of like to propose like with the curriculum and training group that we think about how we could reorganize that group to be a landing place for lots of stuff going on you can do stuff to organize groups in terms of how it presents the information it breaks things down and I think it would be good for us to brainstorm on that I did this came up with this presentation I wanted to do a bof after the presentation to talk about these things this is the last session so no bof but there is the sprint tomorrow and so folks do for a round for the sprint and want to meet on this stuff and just you know the thing is we can change how this landing page looks like and then we can change it again it's not like we don't have to have a committee that meets for two hours to decide what should be on that page and which tabs we should have we can just do something if it's not serving our needs, change it so it would be great tomorrow to actually just start to put some changes on there and see what we can come up with so that to me is like one of the simplest things just as a starting place the first two bullet points that I had on focus and collaboration I'm just sort of breaking this stuff down these are sort of existing projects that are places that people could get involved if they want to and sort of categories of stuff because people have different interests in getting involved with education or they're in a different place or they're wanting to provide or contribute different things so I've kind of broken it down a little bit so curriculum, by curriculum I'm separating that out and that's based on actually on the open curriculum definitions and if you go to in the curriculum and training group there's a section called open curriculum and there are links for things like definitions and all the work that's been done and it's actually pretty cool stuff but what I mean by curriculum is the more overarching meta stuff like defining what it is that people need to learn and being able to sort of categorize that stuff into a kind of a vocabulary that we can then assign to materials and the actual stuff and by materials I'm talking about actual syllabus or syllabi and resources like books or videos how people actually I want to learn this thing defined in the curriculum as a thing to learn and the general goal of what that thing is the materials actually get you from 0.0 to that thing which is an open source assessment which as we talked about in the blog earlier today our community is woefully like underrepresented we don't really have open source assessment tools so I would consider all of that part of materials like that actual feedback process of starting from 0.0 and actually learning something so for those of the documentation team again www.drupal.org documentation resource in the community and it's a the on ramping for that is sort of set and has there's actually quite a bit of documentation on how to get involved and what all of that means the Drupal Ladder is at www.drupalladder.org and that again is creating lessons for a very specific goal of getting involved with core so there are material, there are lessons and it actually just walks people through steps so if you want to teach people that stuff you can go there take the lesson use it any way you want to so it's just material that's available and the skill compass again skillcompass.org is a way to aggregate all kinds of materials from all over the web so it was started by Johan earlier this year so those are definitely things to check out and see in terms of like materials that are sort of already out there aggregated in some way I'm sure there are tons and tons and tons of free materials these are just the three main ones that to me are for me personally are currently sort of active and viable so and then teaching like curriculum is great the materials and actually you know all the resources you need is great and then there's just actually getting up and teaching people some people just want to teach they don't want to build curriculum how many people here like writing curriculum see and I knew that I knew there'd be a couple hands how many people really like teaching people yeah it's a little so sometimes you just want to teach people right and there are you know community ways of doing that and so like I said there's the DA's global training day and basically if you go to Drupal.org slash learn dash Drupal there's sort of some information there about like the upcoming one and who's involved and where that's happening and stuff but if you want to provide training and be part of global training day you should start talking to the DA about that the Drupal Dojo it's not terribly active right now but it's set up so that basically you do an online lesson you pick your topic you pick what you want to do you say hey dojo people I want to do this they announce it people come they watch it's recorded so again it's just a way for you to kind of put stuff out there and get feedback from people and then of course just camps and meetups and not even like official training sessions right when you get up and do a session you can talk about stuff don't forget about the users helping users stuff as a path for people to learn in San Francisco at least that's like the biggest ongoing community resource for people yes but how do they plug into it yeah no I know they come to meet up and then they go to the users helping users which is separated from ah okay you guys actually separated into it separated out okay right which is similar to like your drop in right I mean like the actual like interaction at events thing right it's huge and just getting up and ah but that's the thing it's like you know people think how I'm going to go to an event and I'm going to stand up and I'm going to do a presentation and I'm going to just like talk to a bunch of people you share information that way I wouldn't exactly call that training or education per se I guess it depends but there are other things you can do at meetups and camps and actually our meetup panel we had yesterday lots of ideas about different ways to run meetups and some of them were really cool ways of getting people engaged and learning stuff together um but go to events talk to people if that's what you want to do you should be going to events and actually talking to people um so but I guess like so I have these like sort of as resources where to get in and like I would really like for and like particularly you know like here we have materials and like I said I'm sure there's other stuff that's tons of materials that are out there um somewhere we talked about this a bit at the boff it's like how do we find that stuff put it together you know um I don't have answers for any of this but it would be great if we could get some sort of focus for like you know here's a general curriculum and the open curriculum project is working on that materials how do we gather materials in some meaningful way for people who want to do training or who just want to teach themselves and dive into things um and then you know again with like teaching like I don't know is there a way that like there's dojo stuff that can interact with global training day I don't know is there a way that that dojo and camps and meetups of the training day like all of these things where people are trying to put on events where we actually do training is there a way for those to work together better I don't know but I think it's a question worth asking you know we've all got limited time and we're all trying to have you know the biggest impact that we can so anyway those are things I think we should try to sort of and again this is my breakdown into those three categories I'm sure there are other things out there that people are interested in or other ways you would break this down this is just my first shot across the bow as it were um the last two bullet points on there was sustainable resources and you know like I'm turning learners into contributors and stuff which is part of the resource problem and so resources resources a problem volunteer work is hard it's hard you know I mean you love it but like at the end of the day you got to pay the mortgage so um and there are two things and actually I was talking with Nick earlier this week about um he was teaching 300 students himself and he came up with a process for them to basically be peer teaching and and that you know that is a great thing and like that's the kind of thing like if you want to if we want to make other projects sustainable I think that's the thing is to not like force people into a system that sort of makes them take both sides of the coin in order to progress in some way is a way that we might be able to do something with that um so PHPfordevelopers.com this is a course um being offered by Emma and Lorna and A it's a course we need in the Drupal community right now um because it's about PHP's OO and symphony 2 and Drupal 8 and a lot of people don't know that stuff so um it's course material we're going to need as a community moving forward what I find fascinating about this is the funding model on this because they're not offering this just as a course and you pay for a seat and you attend the course and you get your knowledge and you go home the way that they're funding this is per company and so it's got a higher rate per seat as it were um but if they get a certain amount of funding for going to the class you get to go to the class and you get the materials from that plus they're going to open source the entire curriculum so that everybody else can use it and to me that's a really interesting model for how we can fund educational materials right I mean they're going to spend anybody who has prepared curriculum knows how long it takes and time is money it's expensive as hell to come up with a curriculum and that's one of the biggest problems like once you spend all that time doing all that spending all that money is really difficult to turn around and give that away for free and then have to do it all over again um so anyway I think this is just a really interesting I wanted to just put it up here because I think it's a really interesting model I've not seen it before for educational materials like we do this right we do this kind of thing all the time for code right we pay we get this amount of money we'll do this code and then it's open source because Drupal is open source so we open source our code all the time um and there's all kinds of companies funding that we don't do it with educational stuff maybe we could so something definitely worth looking at I think it's really interesting but you know some kind of way to get stuff paid for so that people can really pour their time and energy into it and show that because it's worth quite a lot and the thing is a lot of people expect to get that stuff for free for some reason um and we're also creating models in terms of how we are engaging with people who want to learn to turn them into actual contributors in the system itself just ideas thoughts radiating out of my brain um so um I'm gonna I wanted to definitely leave time for sort of conversation because we're definitely having a lot of conversations in our boss so I wanted to leave some time so my conclusion here is yeah like this is what I've come up with so far what do we do next does this matter enough to people is this something that we are ready to come together with and figure out or we still gonna keep still in a place to keep iterating you know this is like the thing with um working on code okay we'll try this like contrib is the great land of try it out we'll have five different varieties and then we'll see which one's best and then that will become sort of the canonical thing that the community uses um is is our education still in that stage are we ready to coalesce and focus I don't know um I think I feel like I want it to be I would love to see like some focus and direction happening and stuff like that we also though we don't have a benevolent dictator um leading the education product project you know there's no um there's no buck stops here there's no you know people that you um automatically go to to say okay well they're just gonna say this is this is it cut it off we're gonna stop arguing and talking about this we're making a decision that doesn't tend to happen Heather go I'm sorry I already spoke but just wanted to say one clarification and um and the you said the skill sets for example that we're sitting there and we're not really doing anything with them but they're actually completed we can actually accept that that piece of work is done and so the things that for example the skill compass is built off of that and I'm also developing a 10 week course that can be taught at college level with someone who's does even know Drupal and that's built off this skill sets as well and that's gonna be done in similar fashion perhaps that the P2 developers is that it's gonna be free but um so that's that and the thing I actually really want to ask you about so I have a feeling we could end up talking about all of our brilliant ideas and just chewing it all up again I just feel like I don't want to go there what I want to keep on building I think what you've done with the with the Drupal ladder is just fantastic and your leadership abilities are just stellar um what can you just talk again a bit more about your like the disappointments and why do you think Drupal ladder is working what's making that work um I'll leave it there yeah that's a really great question and it is interesting to me because I you know I get let's get people riled up and I'm like I'm not sure if I want people riled up because I don't know if I have the energy because I've definitely had disappointments and um and I'm very cautious um with my community engagement now and the reason that I feel positive about the Drupal ladder um mostly has to do with its very narrow focus very clearly defined targets goals there are metrics for measuring progress to that goal um and there was a lot of work done already when it was presented as an idea so it was more like getting in and helping continue you know it's sort of like that writing the first draft is always hard but then getting people to edit and expand is easier and so there was something in place to jump into rather than let's create this now somebody already done all that hard work creating the original concept um and so to me in terms of what I could give to it I felt like that I can get behind and I feel like you know between Denver and Munich we met our goals and that feels really great and I feel like okay we can set more goals and go for those and I feel like in a lot of the other projects I've been involved in there's there's just not stuff that's that concrete the goals are so big and so far in the future and so massive that there's no and there's no really breaking it down into smaller pieces that feel achievable within three months or two months or something that like they're always set up so okay we'll do this and we'll do that and then you know in like a year or two but that intermediate step isn't necessarily like it's you you you get there but it's not in and of itself meaningful and useful per se it's a step on the way to something um that's assuming you even have that which in most projects I've been involved with don't have that at all um so that to me is I think probably the biggest thing um is is it is and it's really narrowly focused like a lot of people asked about Drupal Ladder being used for contrib and for lots of other things and that's awesome and ultimately yes and anybody who wants to do that can do that right now that's what not that's not what the center central focus of the project is and I am not going to put my energy into anything beyond Drupal core because I need it for my sanity I'm here we also just started a steering committee um because Brian started this thing and then Brian's been like oh my god millions of people um so Brock Karen and I are now like part of his steering committee and we're looking for other people to get involved um and he asked me this at capital camp which was like a month ago if I would be willing to do this and I was like yeah I don't like to sign on the dotted line anymore in the community because I I felt I felt particularly with the doc team lead stuff um I really felt like I mean I felt bad I felt like I let people down you know because it was like I I had all these ideas and I was trying to work towards them and I just couldn't do it anymore and I had to stop and that was horrible like that was just heart wrenching and I don't want to go through that again and so I told him I finally did accept but I told him here are the limits two hours a week I only work on lessons and how those lessons the content of the lessons gets created I don't deal with the website I don't deal with the tools for creating the lessons none of it this is what I do and these are the hours I do it in and and again so I feel safe I'm like here's my scope this is what I'm willing to do and he was excited about that and he's actually getting the other steering committee people to do that and I think that that's also probably really important in terms of being able to move a larger project forward um and yeah I don't know if I'm turning people out but I have not spoken with Lisa Rex about this at all no microphone sorry I'm talking this whole thing I know I hope no one feels like just this conversation but just so people know there's actually if you go to the Getting Involved page there's a list of community initiatives and that includes of course the core initiatives but other initiatives like organizing the Getting Involved page and Lisa Rex has actually done a lot of work to try and work this together but there's a lot of knowledge that's sort of stuck in different places I think even Addison wasn't aware but it'd be great to have that kind of share what actually worked in terms of project management within the community and you probably could write a book about it you know yeah no that's that's great actually yeah because that is a another larger meta problem I have to run so I want to sort of tying together a little bit of you know where are we and what can we do at this point with the analogy to are we at the contrib part where people are still kind of doing stuff one of the things with contrib is that there is this established place and stuff where contribs happen and people can find them so I think perhaps what we kind of you know what we would perhaps be a good thing to do as you alluded to a little bit earlier is for all of us to kind of say okay we're going to go and we're going to start in addition to making that list of what's available you know at curriculum and training let's also just say we're going to go and we're going to discuss these things and we're going to work with each other to figure out what's you know because let's keep talking but not wait until cons to do the talking you know since that's the one place that we seem to have that makes sense let's at least start there and then let's see where it goes you know just start talking yeah well yeah keep talking is that's always the problem we all get very excited and then you know we're going to go back home and I have a backlog of a week of work as everybody else does and you know I have all these things that have been put off and what oh right that community education stuff right I'll get to that next week next week and then next week you know so yes the keeping talking thing which is hard I think it's keep you talking and we can change your minds later let's just kind of agree that let's just start trying stuff without too much meta conversation I think because the more we keep talking about it the less we do the less actually happens awesome thanks yeah how many people are going to be at the sprint tomorrow how many is it there's a sprint that's going on community sprint all day tomorrow it's going to be over in the western and it's from nine to five and it's all day long just drop in drop out and basic there's going to be a couple different things going on um Drupalize me we're going to be doing a workshop to bootstrap people for contributing to core so that'll be like we'll be off in a corner doing that and then there's the core sprint which are they're all working on working on core but then there's going to be lots of other groups that are working on whatever it is that they want to work on so you know like documentation and like we could have like a group of you get together and say let's sit down let's figure out what to do with the groups page let's talk about how we can set up some way of communicating regularly let's brainstorm ideas about what we can do for next steps um so that there is something to keep conversation going so there'll be lots of different groups working on whatever they want to with the sprint so you can just show up find some like minded folks and help basically is what it's about so if you're here tomorrow I highly recommend that you go to the sprint even if it's just for like an hour or two in the morning or something before you catch your flight um it's one of the greatest community things to me um is is to go to sprints so I'll put that there does anybody else have any other answers I put it like that I'm not going to get anybody to stand up all right um well I hope everybody comes to sprint um here's the session feedback thing so um I know you've seen this throughout but if you go to the actual session page there's a you know talk back to me thing um but also I'm at one son on Drupal.org in IRC on Twitter so if you have thoughts you want to get in touch with me um either about the session specifically in the feedback or just generally about any of this stuff that I've been talking about um feel free to ping me and get in touch with me that way as well um yeah so that's that's all I got um unless anybody has any other questions we're going to wrap it up and get beer thanks a lot everybody oh and if anybody wants pink pony stickers because if you attended this session then you are a contributor um if you want if you want pink pony stickers I have them so you can come up and get them do you want a blue one I think I have blue ones with me


And everybody welcome back to the House Committee on Government Operations and Military Affairs. So picking up on our earlier conversation this morning about S-42, the divestment bill, I'd like to welcome Mr. McKibbin here. And would you please introduce yourself for the record and give us your testimony on S-42. Thanks for being with us. Well, what a pleasure. My name is Bill McKibbin. I live in Ripton. That's where I'm joining you from and I'm very grateful that you're letting me do this from a distance. I've got a bunch of stitches in my leg right at the moment. They're coming out soon, but it's a great gift to not have to travel. So thank you very much. And a real pleasure to get to talk about this bill. I'm very glad that it made its way safely to your side of the legislature in plenty of time and I'm very hopeful that the good reception that it found in the Senate will be repeated in the house. I wanted just to give you a little bit of background. Since in many ways this divestment movement began here in Vermont about a decade ago, when those of us at 350.org put out the call to try and get people around the world to institutions around the world to begin selling their stock and the coal and gas and oil industries, the impetus at first was entirely to, as we put it, take away the social license of these corporations because we knew two things about them. One, their published business plans were then and continue to be incompatible with what the scientists are telling us we must do that is they've told their shareholders and creditors that they plan to dig up and burn about five times as much carbon as any scientist thinks might be safe. I wrote the original book the first book about global warming back in the 1980s so it's a subject that I've followed my whole life. The reason that we wanted to take away their social license as it were was because great investigative reporting in the LA Times, Columbia Journalism School elsewhere had demonstrated that these companies had known all there was to know about climate change back as far ago as the 1980s and had systematically lied about their understanding and knowledge of it in an effort to delay the point when we would make the transition to fossil fuels. With that in mind, this movement began to grow. It modeled itself on the one that had arisen in the 1980s in response to apartheid in South Africa. The first person we called to ask before we began was Archbishop, Archbishop Desmond Tutu who won the Nobel Prize for that work, and he said please take this tactic. Apartheid was the human rights issue of that time climate change the human rights issue of this time. We did. And so it is grown in spectacular fashion. We've now reached the point where roughly $40 trillion in endowments and portfolios have divested some are all of their holdings in coal gas and oil. And it's reached a size where it's also begun happily to restrict some of the ability of those industries to access the capital to keep expanding something that every scientist has called on them to do, but which they have called on them to stop expanding, but they continue trying to develop, explore and develop for new sources of hydrocarbons. The academic literature on the effectiveness in these two realms is pretty unimpeachable by this point. There's been a lot of studies demonstrating the effect of this movement on raising popular awareness and helping people, perhaps more than anything else in the last decade, understand the impact of an importance of the climate crisis. And there's been a lot more recent research demonstrating its important impacts in terms of the financing of these industries, including a major study about 10 days ago. There's also been happily an extensive body of work that has demonstrated that there's no financial penalty that accompanies the decision to divest. Partly that's because moving out of one asset class isn't enough to affect returns no matter what the asset class turns out to be. But the other reason is that fossil fuel has systematically underperformed the rest of the economy for the last decade, except for the last 12 months when thanks to Vladimir Putin it's had a temporary reprieve. But as you know, because you're all legislating around the efforts to move us quickly off fossil fuels. This is a waning industry, not a waxing. And I think that both these things, the moral case and the fact that it's a important step that comes without cost explains why so many have signed on. These include all the colleges and universities in Vermont I think at this point, including the University of Vermont. They include most of the other institutions of higher education you've heard of around the world, all of whom have extraordinary investment committees and commitments. So Harvard with its $50 billion endowment Princeton Oxford Cambridge the University of California which divested its endowment and its $90 billion pension fund the University of Michigan. I could go on for a very long time because thousands of institutions have divested. It also includes increasing numbers of very large corporate and sovereign players the sovereign wealth fund from Norway that the biggest pool of investment capital on the planet. And, and also now includes a large number of pension funds including some of the very biggest in the world across our various borders, both the state of New York and the city of New York have divested or in the process of divesting their pension funds in both cases about $250 billion. The province of Quebec is divesting its pension fund one of the I think 10 largest on the planet. The legislature in the state of Maine has voted to divest their pension fund and they're well along the way. In the state, I think it's safe to say that it has the backing of the entire environmental community. And I hope that you'll hear from some of them in days ahead. I know that the group that I most recently founded third act which organizes older Americans like me for action on climate change has been an unspoken advocate and I know that they wish to testify and to bring just to help clear up any worries about the financial implications of this. I'm San Zillow who also testified before the Senate, and who is the former acting controller of the state of New York so has experience handling. Even larger sums of money than we get to handle in Vermont. And the third act, which already is only a year old but already has I think closing in on 500 members in the state of Vermont. The first represents precisely the kind of people who's, you know, who are receiving pensions who understand the importance of them. And, and who know that this is a crucial step to take out of a sense of fiduciary responsibility, writ small. And I think that's one of the safety against financial risk associated with climate change and energy transition, and also fiduciary risk writ large. It doesn't be a much good to retire on a planet that's no longer working. So, those are the things that I think explain the growth and power of this movement over time. And I'm extremely gratified that Mike P jack has understood the arguments behind it and swung heavily behind it we're really grateful for his leadership. In this a priority. It's something that the legislature has considered on and off over the years but never really think even managed to get around to bothering to take a vote on. And we're very hopeful that this is the year that it gets done. I think the one thing I would caution against just as I close here is delay. Climate change is the first timed test that human beings have come up against. Most of the political questions that you all deal with are in some level perennial. They come around again and again and we make some progress on them or we don't and we come back the next year or the next biennium or the next decade or whatever it is and argue them out again and, and we make a little progress or climate change on that. Winning slowly on climate change is a different way of losing because once we melt the Arctic, nobody's got a good plan for freezing it back up again, and we've melted more than half of it. Once we raise the sea level and no one's got a plan for reducing it again, once we manage to end or deeply curtail winter, we're not going back to the Vermont that we knew. The time for action really is now there's enormous sentiment across the state for action is demonstrated by the large number of institutions that have already moved. And we're very, very hopeful that the house which is the last piece of this puzzle does its thing and does it soon. Thank you all very much. Good afternoon and thank you so much for coming and taking your time. And thank you for your writing. And I will have to add that the most recent book that's a memoir is as much as I've been enjoying as your other writings and thanks for that. I do have a little bit more to deal with in the house though. And we're still going to need your help because we have to, we have to get the governor signature on this or else we need 120 votes. Understood. So, I'm hoping you're with us for the long haul on this because I would agree we can't delay anymore. I am, I am persistent personified so I will be there at all. Thank you. I really appreciate you being with us. Representative Byron has a question and I'll. No, thank you. Thank you. So, I totally understand where you're coming from philosophically 120%. My question just you cited some of the other states. Institutions, et cetera, that did divest. Are you, do you have any data or financial information on how they've performed since then compared to how they perform previous to. Absolutely, we can get you reams of it and that's one of the reasons why I think Tom Stanzilla would be a very smart person to talk with. You know, I was on Friday night with Brad Land or the comptroller of the city of New York who has responsibility for their $250 billion pension fund. They're in the final stages of divestment, which they've done with the cooperation of all parties involved and he reports that the process has been going very smoothly. And that they're not at all worried about return. They're now a number of large institutions that have been divested for a decade, and they're able to produce that have been able to produce lots of data demonstrating the benign effect on returns. One of the most interesting, and one of the ones who studied it most closely is the Rockefeller family charities a very large group of funds. It's interesting because of course, they're derived from the original oil fortune in this world, but nonetheless decided to divest their holdings, partly at the urging of Archbishop to to, and partly with the understanding as they put it that the financial future belongs to renewable energy. And they've been, as you would expect being Rockefellers, careful about calculating the costs in all of this. And, and produce this series report showing that it had no effect on returns against whoever they were benchmarking it against, you know, all the series of groups that they benchmarked it against. And one of them, who some of you know as the running one of the leading hedge funds in the country Boston based and an important widely, widely watched market observer had his team do a series of studies, and they found no effect from fossil investment on returns, and then they went and as I said earlier, went back and did a series of historical studies to demonstrate that you could take virtually any asset class out by itself, and over a period of time show no erosion of performance, because the portfolio has remained otherwise diversified enough. Yeah, I mean if any of that information that you have data that you have would love to have you share it so we could digest. I will send it along through on Andrea. Thank you. And I think we will have. Mr. Sandzillo back for some additional testimony on this in the next week or so. So, you can ask some of those questions of him as well. Just high level, what we heard from the VP chair today and you're probably aware that they would like us to make some pretty big changes. And one of the things that I wanted to get your feedback on was the idea of saying, yeah, we're talking about direct holdings and we can really see this as a fossil fuel company we can probably wind down those events, it's pretty easily. I'm concerned about some of the more complex managed asset portfolios that we have specifically private equity and index funds that have these longer timelines and where we're a very small piece of the portfolio those higher tier managers. And with the other jurisdictions that you mentioned that have done divestment or doing it, if they've taken kind of an approach of saying yeah we want to get our money and direct fossil fuel investment, but these things that are really tied to the whole market we're going to let the managers kind of deal with that and So the easiest to do is to get it out of direct holdings and many places make that the very first step but then usually go on to do the rest. And it's truthfully gotten endlessly easier than it was a decade ago. Capitalism being what it is, when there's demand for something a supply is produced and in this case, the supply of high quality fossil free investments. I think before the Senate, Dave Provost, the who ran this project at Middlebury College, testified about the work that they're doing. And I think that it was what one of the things that convinced Mike peachy act to that the bill from the Senate was a strong and useful one and shouldn't be amended in those ways.  But on the list of things that we're going to have to do to deal with climate change.  Those are hard challenges that require a ton of work. This requires a few people finding a few different money managers to manage things in a different way so that Vermont can make an important contribution in the top level fight to limiting the rise in temperature, just as quickly as possible. So I think that the sort of agreement legislation that the Senate worked out is actually quite smart in in this fashion. The last question I have for you is that one of the key assertions that chair Galanca made was really about the benefits of having an engagement strategy and, you know, with the black rock portfolio that he mentioned several times he talked a lot about engagement and zero pledges. And I was just wondering if you have an opinion or any, any take on how solid those those kinds of commitments are from, you know, corporate entities or portfolio managers to, because you know I know from my day job that there's things that look like they're good for the environment and then there are things where people are actually doing something that makes a different in the effort against climate change so. So, let me say that I think that corporate engagement strategies make a great deal of sense. A lot of the time, they make sense when you're facing a problem where there is a flaw in the business plan of a company. The price and pay it's paying it's Chinese workers slave wages and you know people protest and you pass a series of shareholder resolutions and Apple increases the wages a little bit and the price of my phone goes up a buck and everybody ends up more or less okay with things you know. So what the fossil fuel industry is the flaw is the business plan. They know how to do one thing, and that's dig stuff up and set it on fire and anything else. They not only don't know how to do, they react violently to and do everything they can to prevent from happening. And if you're participating at this point with Exxon or Chevron or whoever it is, you're participating in their whole hearted effort to make sure that the US Congress and state capitals around the country do as little as possible to deal with the climate crisis and slow walk the transition to clean energy as deliberately as possible. So, in those cases where the flaw is the business plan on greenwashing has become the, you know, the, the great art of our time. I wrote a piece for the New Yorker I think not long ago about Exxon's ad strategy. If you've been watching just Exxon commercials for the last decade, you might be under the impression that Exxon was an algae company that happened to have a few oil wells on the side, you know, as it turns out they never spent more than about one tenth of one percent of their Kpex budget on algae and a year ago they just said, you know what it's not working very well forget what we're out and dropped the whole thing after all those zillion and the Super Bowl and wherever it was. That kind of greenwashing is endemic across this industry, and it's time to simply say no enough of this. These are, these have not proven to be responsible players and truthfully legislators should have as much a sense of that as anybody else, because the power of this particular industry, especially in Washington, but many other places to use its weight to make sure that it was never effectively challenged has been very large. Any other questions from Mr McKinnon. Thank you very much for sharing your experience and your perspective with us today I appreciate you making the time. All right, thank you all very much for all your good work we appreciate it mightily and may you reach adjournment on a steady and a speedy pace, take care y'all. So I wanted to leave a little bit of time for us to talk about kind of the next couple of weeks and what what I think our priorities are. I am sure you can all tell that we're going to be taking a slightly different tack on a 17 on a few items. Then our Senate colleagues and I spoke with Senator Hardy and I've been having stakeholders here and we will continue to hear from the relevant folks but I think I'd like to take some of the little time we have left this afternoon confer with legislative council but I wanted to get the committee's feedback a little bit before I put on a draft and see if there's anything I'm missing and say the overarching thing that I wanted to get your thoughts on is this. It seems to me that the Senate was really concerned about the sheriff's ability to use the 5% that they've been on the books at least since the early 90s to cover their overhead costs and their contracts as they see fit. And I think that the there's some of the inconsistencies and just the lack of any real guardrails or rules around how those funds get used have led to some simple practices. But that the way that the bill currently changes things will radically change the compensation for a number of sitting sheriffs from what they currently have today. It doesn't really get at some of the accountability and transparency that I was really looking forward from this effort and so I'd like to focus on development of good model policies best practices and making sure those are facilitated by some professional support from the department. And that's what I'd like to try to get into some language as an alternative to just saying you can't spend this money the way that you want. I want to say this is how you can spend the money in kind of the box that that makes sense and to do that in consultation with some of the sheriffs that I think are doing things pretty transparently today. So interested to have a little committee discussion to get your thoughts on things that you think we need to absolutely do in the bill things that stuck out to you in the testimony we heard on a 17 before I a little bit more legislative council and trying to get some amendment language together. Representative Hooper. A little bit more. Mr. Chair, if you move on what you didn't put in the fence, I still am somewhat perplexed about what money is supposed to be used for and you're supposed to be using it as responsible for it. If you heard the share of a new team, do you use it for salary or benefits? Is that in your thoughts? This started with a couple of renovations and has turned into a lot more. I'm uncomfortable I guess at this point with taking complete control of that money. Yeah, I would say that I too am uncomfortable with the legislature saying you can only get paid the statutory amount because the way that we have as a state benefited from the flexibility that the sheriff's offices offer, whether it's the kind of management around the transport deputies or providing local law enforcement to towns that don't have their own police department. The flexibility is kind of integral to the whole thing. And the Senate's bill is so restrictive that I think it actually could undermine the things that we like about the structure of sheriffs. So I think we're on the same page there, maybe just set it different ways in our initial approach. But the place I would go is to say you can use it for salary and benefits, but it's got to be pegged to a model policy that you should develop in collaboration with other experts. So the key thing I think that I'd like to put in an amendment is to have a model policy around benefits and compensation that isn't so narrowly defined that it doesn't recognize the sort of various complexity and sizes of the different sheriff's organizations across the state, but that it puts some guardrails on and says, you know, that if you're going to offer a bonus, for instance, it should be done in a way that, you know, based on a plan where it isn't just in a kind of a random large, large sum that raises the eyebrows. I mean, that was really the thing about what we saw with auditors comments on the $400,000 in bonuses in Caledonia was not illegal. It's not illegal. It's just that there isn't any policy that describes how you're going to give out bonuses. So it needs the public to see if there'd be conflicts of interest. Is this in payment for something? It raises a lot of eyebrows and questions that are really legitimate, even if it's not illegal.  I mentioned summary comparisons before and different. I would assume that we will also discuss whether bringing this up to the level of an equivalent state police counterpart would be on our agenda. So I think I'd like to set a process in motion that might get us there. I'm hesitant to just do that because somebody who has the complexity of managing a dispatch office and having a bunch of different contracts and having a really robust organization with a lot of staff, versus somebody who does patrols on their own and only has a couple of deputies. I don't know that we want to necessarily make sure that those two types of sheriffs get paid exactly the same amount here in the legislature that might be overstepping our So I had a bunch of hands. I think represent where we keep first and then we'll go the other side and see what happens. For me, the big hole in the Senate bill is that they want to restrict funding. I don't see any other funding source particularly. And I don't think we want to starve the sheriffs out of business. And it seems at odds with itself then any noon and shared that in my spring has been as well. A lot of grants are written with at least 10% indirect costs about. And I will note that most of the time the funding is encumbered. There are guardrails on how to spend the money and I think that sounds like a viable way to move this forward. Another piece that I would like to have articulated in there is where we talk about audits. I'd like to articulate what level of audit you have. I mean, there's a full audit, which is everything on that. There's not a lot. It's just not important. It may be lower level, just a flyby kind of thing. But I'd like to start articulating what we're asking for in audits there. Of course, we want to make sure tax credit money is being protected well, but I think we can do that without necessarily requiring a full audit every time the term audit is used. Thanks. Basically, I agree with what you're saying and I feel like that approach makes a lot of sense. But, you know, you want to make sure that there's policies in place and they're able to justify things based on the needs and the mission of the agency. And then, you know, it seems like there is some accountability and way for that to be explained or reported to with the group that was here before. So I prefer that a lot more to just directing a certain percentage to a certain thing one way or the other. So I think it would hamper their ability to do the different types of jobs that we need that to do. Sorry, water zones. I have a question. And then I had a comment. The first thing is the only way for a sheriff to not be an office anymore to be impeached by the legislature and they be impeached by the voters in their county. No, so we don't have any recall provisions unless it's having some charters and even then it's a little uncomfortable for me when we see those. Because it's just it's not a heron in our constitutional structure in the state of Vermont. We have periodic elections. And when that person is elected to office, there's the one place in existing statute and I did a lot of work with that really, really want to thank Tim Devlin and other members of legislative council for going deep into the historical record on this. The only remedy we have to remove a sheriff from office is impeachment and in statute today, the only sort of suspension of the sheriff's duties is if they're in prison and the high bail if then steps in and would typically then appoint somebody that was qualified to take over the office. But that's just in the event of imprisonment. And that's full like, like, like due process conviction. It doesn't necessarily mean if I understand it right. This is all existing statutes on the bill. It's not even worth it. Yeah, it's doesn't have to be after a conviction, but an arraignment and then in prison. So if you're in jail, essentially, you know, awaiting. So the way the high bail is charged. The role is when they are incapacitated from the role. The thing is, it's entirely anachronistic, right? It just doesn't fit the modern sort of situational like. Well, if this leads me to my question or to my comment, which is it seems like whatever we're hearing about and talking about what this bill is trying to do.  When I think really the problem is, I mean, not that they're not a problem, but it's like addressing all of these things in one bill rather than addressing the problem itself, which is that structure of how to deal with this particular law enforcement officer who's not behaving within the bounds of the law. Yeah, I would say my chief frustration has been that the thing that I think is most urgent. When we consider that there happen and continue to be shares who occasionally they're they're the exception, not the role, but I don't know that that even the committing of a crime and some due process can't even lead to a suspension while we work out what's going on, you know, and it's shaking the confidence of towns in Franklin County right now and in their ability to get the law enforcement services that changing. Yeah, but it's but it requires a constitutional amendment. That's right. Essentially, yes. And short of that, we have very little power other than going through the process of impeachment, which is pretty uncertain. Yeah, and I think there are some legitimate things in here like I think it really makes sense when Sheriff says they're not going to run again for there to be a little more scrutiny over what happens. You know, we heard Senator Norris talking about when he took over his office. There was hardly any money in the bank and, you know, the cars didn't work and some of them been sold. They didn't even put them in the front door to the day he got sworn in. Right. And so this is this is the issue is that like that. That's not that's not the norm, but it's totally possible. I've been with the county to and keep Clark took over. Mm hmm. That's they had actually marked maybe you remember the other sheriffs. Evens So I guess the other way to look at it is to say to put these parameters on it, then we'll be preventing other behaviors in the future. And then we might not need that. And then so much In theory, perhaps I think I think there are there's an opportunity here to make some improvements. It's definitely not satisfactory. But I think there's an opportunity if we do it, right? Thank you. So two things. The first being I would need to see the language that you're proposing in order to even wrap my head around weighing in on what we should be doing going forward because I can't get in your head. I don't know what you're thinking. Secondly, what about all the asks that we've heard from like from the Department of State's attorneys and sheriffs and the DOC and the judiciary? What about all of their asks? Are you planning to address any of those in this bill? So I would like to try to address as many of them as possible. I have asked chair alone to talk through a little bit of his perspective and what his committee thinks about the courthouse pieces. And so, you know, I heard loud and clear from the department and from the SCA and when representative Oliver was speaking, you know, context as the person for the transport deputies representing their interests in having, you know, the expanded positions. I think those are all things we need to think about. And it's, I don't know that we'll be able to resolve all of those. And so the question might be one of do we work with our budget committees and try to make sure that we sort of fully address what the courts and the department and the transport deputies all need in this bill or do we work on a broader conversation and get by with the kind of status quo for now. And I think what's in a 17 is a there, there's especially in regard to the courthouse piece. And what I heard was that there's this unfunded mandate. It's saying, Sheriff, you provide this person when there's not really a mechanism to have anybody there, especially given the current labor market and the abilities for them to just get a per diem. So I don't have a solution for that right now that's in my head. And if anybody has a great brilliant idea about how we solve that. It seems like we would really need to find some resources in in the final budget if we were going to try to solve that problem in this calendar year. Right. So if we can't do that, if that is not possible, then the bill really can't say shall, you know, you shall do this or you shall not do this. I think that I guess I'll wait and see what the version is the children send us. And I may not try to solve every issue with the bill in the first round, but this is, I'm not planning on, you know, trying to pass this thing out tomorrow or anything. I think we've got some work to do here because there are just so many of these issues. And that's why I'm looking for this sort of feedback. It might be admitted. My bridge that's going to be presented is like a frame for us to continue the conversations. Yeah, just trying to get everything on the table today represent where you go. Yeah, but mostly a bunch of comments and a question I'll throw at the very end. So these are Morgan's observations only you all can disagree. But that just my thoughts and from what I've seen testimony talking with the sheriffs and living 62 years in this state is this that like a lot of organizations. I've been parts of our observed parts of, I think the shirts have professionalized themselves more than they were in the past because I think we've all seen or heard anecdotally things that have been bad in the past and do we still have bad actors. Sure, but show me an organization doesn't have a bad actor and that doesn't exist. So we think we have to be mindful of that, but I think from testimony we've heard from the Mark Anderson world that they have done a good job of no pun intended policing themselves to a degree of coming away from some of the anecdotal stuff we've heard of or direct testimony on bad organizations, you know, have been sourization of had broke their budgets shown up, you know, the $700 in the account, so forth. So I think we have to be mindful of that as we craft this. And I believe again, insurance here, we could ask them if I'm wrong on this, I don't think one size fits all for every for all 14 counties are different. My accurate message here that said I think by Rory today Rory Tebow, they saying, hey, like Washington County, they're almost that, you know, waiting for the call to come in and it sounds like almost over exaggerating by saying that so I think you have to be mindful of that. I certainly don't want to knee jerk anything here I think and have unintended consequences of be very, as I think we're saying we've got to be see what's on there that we think we're after grind it out. I mean, I got a note from sure Dan Gamlin should have kind of said he can't I think he had your guy he can't make it and testimony tomorrow so I don't know if sure Vanerson's coming around just to suggest and if we're going to plug him in with after hearing all of this.  I'm just a suggestion I throw out. And then the last thing is my question is, what you're saying, Mr chair on modeling. I mean, model the lab for you and it's specific in mind or is like another organization that are what were you forward your thoughts, it just seems like there was pretty strong support from the department and I think depending on exactly how we model it you could earn support from the sheriff's association toward, okay, you know, the creation of a model policy so we could sort of set some parameters I think, and then have the experts work together. And you know the criminal justice council approved model policies to so I feel like there's a sort of a, you know, the right kind of process to go through but it's not something I think that we can flush out all the details in here we were, you know, there's kind of two frameworks right and the framework that came over to us in regard to compensation and benefits and the use of money really narrowed down to the point where I think it might have some fundamental challenges on the structure that we have today with And I'd like to kind of take a different frame and say, let's get the people in the room, work out what best practices and a model policy would be that has enough flexibility to accommodate the smaller offices and the more complex ones, and give everybody a sense of like, this is what a reasonable range of compensation is for the sheriff themselves and deputies and you know the way you might do bonuses and so no one's surprised when the auditor goes in and says oh there were bonuses and yes that is, you know, in line with the model policy and then you would kind of feel good about that and it wouldn't be something that was just, you know, all done sort of from here mandated on to the sheriff so that's where I'd like to get to and I think we're going to be starting on some of those sections from kind of a very different place And, you know, I worked a little bit with legislative council a real last few days, you know, came up with some ideas to bat off of some folks and it really didn't feel like it was ready for primetime today after some of the initial feedback I got so I wanted to do one more round with some stakeholders before I put some actual language on the table. You know, so just here, you know, we heard a lot from a lot of the different people I just wanted to get where you all are. It seems like from a new starting place to some language will be healthy for us. I agree. That's right. That's where I said, I had to use the same words last time I think it's ready for primetime or not there. But I think I think we need to have a lot of, I just really think we have to make sure somebody said earlier for the baby out of the bathwater here and we want to we got to get it right. I don't think we're hearing from those folks that they're adverse to change or things changing. And the last comment I'm trying to hog it up it is on the 5% I really think we need to be real careful about not overstepping that when you give them. Yeah, if we're going to put some guardrails on it great but not so much micromanage it they don't have the ability to keep things within reason for what they're doing and I think that's got a lot of definition you could put to that for within reason. That sounds a bit red in that way and that's okay. So I'm sure I'll say later. Yeah, I think we'll keep a number of the components so we're in a 17 at least in the initial thing I'll put it on the table based on some of the initial conversations I've had some of the components won't be there and so it'll be easier to read if it's a strike off. The ultimate thing that I think didn't quite get as far as some of these issues and frankly, I spent a lot of time trying to find some way to have suspensions work with inside the constitutional structure that was laid out and try to hold some of ideas and just couldn't find a way, even when there were some pretty extreme circumstances and due process with arrangements and that kind of thing to take that next step on beyond what's already in statute with imprisonment I just couldn't. And I just don't feel comfortable putting something on the table, even though I think it would be beneficial for us to eventually get there someday. I don't want to put something on the table that has that level of constitutional questioning and hardiness with our legislative council and some lawyers outside of the building as well. So it's that's part of why I just, I think there's some good things here. The thing I think the few really road share incidents that we've had in the last couple of decades, especially this bill, because of those constitutional constraints is just not going to satisfy some of the public's desire to hold people who really do bad things accountable. And I what I don't want to do down that is mine, the public safety services that we have that are working by trying to fix, you know, two things that we can as a response. So we have other work to do outside of a 17 I think, especially, you know, the sense today is considered as constitutional language and I think, you know, that's a four or five year process. So this, this won't this bill is just trying to solve some of the things we can solve today and this won't be the last time to look at this issue. So I'm not seeing any other hands. I think we probably have all beat this today. So thank you everybody this there was a lot today. And we've only got a couple of real policy weeks left.