From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of smart data marketplaces brought to you by IOTAHO. Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante and welcome back. We've been talking about smart data. We've been hearing IOTAHO talk about putting data to work and a key part of building great data outcomes is the cloud, of course, and also cloud native tooling. Stuti Vishpande is here. She's a partner solutions architect for Amazon web services and an expert in this area. Stuti, great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Thank you so much for having me here. You're very welcome. So let's talk a little bit about Amazon.  Take us through how this whole evolution has occurred in technology over the period of time since the cloud really has been evolving. Amazon in itself is a company, an example of a company that has gotten through a multi-year machine learning transformation to become the machine learning driven company that you see today. They have been improvising on original personalization model using robotics throughout the fulfillment centers, developing a forecasting system to predict the customer needs and improvising on that and meeting customer expectations on convenience, cost, delivery and speed. From developing natural language processing technology for end user interaction to developing a groundbreaking technology such as frying air drones to get packages to the customers. So our goal at Amazon web services is to take this rich expertise and experience with machine learning technology across Amazon and to work with thousands of customers and partners to hand over this powerful technology into the hands of developers or data engineers of all levels. Great, so okay, so if I'm a customer or partner of AWS, give me the sales pitch on why I should choose you for machine learning, what are the benefits that I'm going to get specifically from AWS? Well, there are three main reasons why partners choose us. First and foremost, we provide the broadest and the deepest set of machine learning and AI services and features for your business. The velocity at which we innovate is truly unmatched. Over the last year, we launched 200 different services and features. So not only our pace is accelerating, but we provide fully managed services to our customers and partners who can easily build sophisticated AI-driven applications and utilizing this fully managed services that they can build and train and deploy machine learning models, which is both valuable and differentiating. Secondly, we can accelerate the option of machine learning. So as I mentioned about fully managed services, for machine learning, we have Amazon SageMaker. So SageMaker is a fully managed service that any developer of any level or a data scientist can utilize to build complex machine learning algorithms and models and deploy that at scale with very less effort and at very less cost. Before SageMaker, it used to take so much of time and expertise and specialization to build all these extensive models. With SageMaker, you can literally build any complex models within just a time of days or weeks. So to increase adoption, AWS has exhalation programs, such as ML Solution Labs, and we also have education and training programs, such as DeepRacer, which enforces on enforcement learning and Embark, which actually help organization to adopt machine learning very readily. And we also support three major frameworks, such as TensorFlow, PyTorch, and we have separate teams who are dedicated to just focus on all these frameworks and improve the support of these frameworks for a wide variety of workloads. And thirdly, we provide the most comprehensive platform that is optimized for machine learning. So when you think about machine learning, you need to have a data store where you can store your training sets, your test sets, which is highly reliable, highly scalable, and secure data store. Most of our customers want to store all of their data and any kind of data into a centralized repository that can be treated as the central source of truth. And in this case, probably an Amazon S3 data store to build an end-to-end machine learning workflow. So we believe that we provide this capability of having the most comprehensive platform to build the machine learning workflow from end-to-end. Great, thank you for that. So my next question is, this is a complicated situation for a lot of customers. Having the technology is one thing, but adoption is sort of everything. So I wonder if you could paint a picture for us and help us understand how you're helping customers think about machine learning, thinking about that journey, and maybe give us the context of what the ecosystem looks like. Sure, if someone can put up the build, I would like to provide a picture representation of how AWS Envision Machine Learning has three layers of stack. And moving on to next build, I can talk about the bottom layer. And bottom layer, if you can see over the screen, it's basically for advanced technologists, advanced data scientists who are machine learning practitioners who work at the framework level. 90% of data scientists use multiple frameworks because multiple frameworks are adjusted and are suitable for multiple and different kinds of workloads. So at this layer, we provide support for all of the different kind of frameworks. And the bottom layer is only for the advanced scientists and developers who actually want to build, train, and deploy these machine learning models by themselves. And moving on to the next level, which is the middle layer, this layer is only suited for non-experts. So here we have SageMaker, where it provides a fully managed service where you can build, tune, train, and deploy your machine learning models at a very low cost and with very minimal efforts and at a higher scale. It removes all the complexity, heavy lifting and guesswork from this stage of machine learning. And Amazon SageMaker has been the C level change. Many of our customers are actually standardizing on top of Amazon SageMaker. And then moving on to the next layer, which is the top most layer, we call this as AI services because this may make the human cognition. So all the services mentioned here, such as Amazon Recognition, which is basically a deep learning service optimized for image and video analysis. And then we have Amazon Poly, which can do the text to speech conversion and so on and so forth. So these are the AI services that can be embedded into the application so that the end user or the end customer can build AI driven applications. Love it. Okay, so you got the experts at the bottom with the frameworks, the hardcore data scientists. You kind of got the self-driving machine learning in the middle. And then you have all the ingredients. I'm like an AI chef or a machine learning chef. I can pull in vision, speech, chatbots, fraud detection and sort of compile my own solutions. That's cool. We hear a lot about SageMaker, Stuti. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more. Can we double click a little bit on SageMaker? That seems to be a pretty important component of that stack that you just showed us. Sure, and I think that was an absolutely very great summarization of all the different layers of machine learning stack. So thank you for providing the gist of that. Of course, I'll be really happy to talk about Amazon SageMaker because most of our customers are actually sanitizing on top of SageMaker. Jelki has spoken about how machine learning traditionally has so many complications and it's very complex and extensive, expensive and iterative process which makes it even harder because there are no integrated tools if you do the traditional machine learning kind of deployment. There are no integrated tools for the entire workflow process and deployment. And that is where SageMaker comes into the picture. SageMaker removes all the heavy lifting and complexities from each step of the deployment of machine learning workflow. How it solves these type challenges by providing all of the different components that are optimized for every stage of the workflow into one single toolset so that models get to production faster and with much less effort and at a lower cost. We really continue to add important capabilities to Amazon SageMaker. I think last year we announced over 50 capabilities in just for SageMaker to improvise its features and functionalities. And I would like to call out a couple of those here. SageMaker Notebooks which are just one click deployment Notebooks that comes along with easy to instances. I'm sorry for quoting Jarvan here. It's Amazon Elastic Compute Instances. So you just need to have a one click deployment and you have the entire SageMaker Notebook interface along with the Elastic Compute Instances running that gives you the faster time to production.  So there we have Amazon Ground Truth that is only for building machine learning training datasets, which can reduce your labeling costs by 70%. And if you perform machine learning and aware about the technology in general, there are some workflows where you need to join inferences. So there we have Elastic Inference Instances where you can reduce the cost by 75% by adding a little GPU acceleration or you can reduce the cost by adding managed spot training utilizing easy to spot instances. So there are multiple ways where you can reduce the cost. And there are multiple ways where you can improvise and speed up your machine learning deployment and workflow. So one of the things I love about, I mean, I'm a prime member who's not, right? I love to shop at Amazon. And what I like about it is the consumer experience. It kind of helps me find things that maybe I wasn't aware of, maybe based on other patterns that are going on in the buying community or people that are similar. If I want to find a good book, it's always gives me great reviews and recommendations. So I'm wondering if that applies to sort of the tech world and machine learning, learning world. Are you seeing any patterns emerge across the various use cases? You have such scale, what can you tell us about that? Sure, one of the patterns that we have seen all the time is to build scalable layer for any kind of use case. So as I spoke before, that customers are really looking to put their data into a single set of repository where they have the single source of truth. So storing data and any kind of data at any velocity into a single source would actually help them to build models who run on these data and get useful insights out of it. So when we speak about an end-to-end workflow, using Amazon SageMaker along with a scalable analytical tool is actually what we have seen as one of the patterns where they can perform some analysis using Amazon SageMaker and build predictive models to say suppose if you want to take a healthcare use case. So they can build a predictive model that can determine the readmissions of using Amazon SageMaker. So what I mean to say is by not moving data around and connecting different services to the single set of source of data, customers avoid creating other copies of data, which is very crucial when you are having training data set and test data sets with Amazon SageMaker. It is highly important to consider this. So the pattern that we have seen is to utilize central source of repository of data, which could be Amazon S3 in this scenario, a scalable analytical layer along with SageMaker. I would like to quote an intuitive success story over here. Using Amazon SageMaker in Qt had reduced machine learning deployment time by 90%. So I'm quoting here from six months to one week. And if you think about healthcare industry, there have been a shift from reactive to predictive care. So utilizing predictive models to accelerate research and discovery of new jobs and new treatments. And we have also observed that nurses were supported by AI tools increased, their productivity has increased by 50%. I would like to say that one of our customers are really diving deep into the AWSD portfolio of machine learning and AI services. And including transcribed medical, where they are able to provide some insights so that their customers are getting benefits from them. Most of their customers are healthcare providers and they are able to give some insights so that they can create some more personalized and improvised patient care. So there you have the end user benefits as well. One of the patterns that I have, I can speak about and what we have seen as well, pairing a predictive model with real-time integration into healthcare records will actually help the healthcare provider customers for informed decision making and improvising the personalized patient care. You know, that's a great example, several there, and I appreciate that. I mean, healthcare is one of those industries that is just so right for technology ingestion and transformation. And it's a great example of how the cloud has really enabled really, I mean, talking about major changes in healthcare with proactive versus reactive. We're talking about lower costs, better health, longer lives, just really inspiring to see that evolve. We're going to watch it over the next several years. I wonder if we could close on the marketplace. I've had the pleasure of interviewing Dave McCann a number of times. He and his team have built just an awesome capability for Amazon and its ecosystem. What about the data products? Whether it's SageMaker or other data products in the marketplace, what can you tell us? Sure, AWS Marketplace is an interesting thing. So let me first talk about the AWS Marketplace. With AWS Marketplace, you can browse and search for hundreds of machine learning algorithms and machine learning model packages in a broad range of categories, such as computer vision, fixed analysis, voice analysis, image and video analysis, predictive models and so on and so forth. And all of these models and algorithms can be deployed to a Jupyter Notebook which comes as part of the SageMaker platform. And you can integrate all of these different models and algorithms into our fully managed service which is Amazon SageMaker through Jupyter Notebooks, SageMaker, SDK and even command line as well. And this experience is followed by AWS Marketplace catalog and APIs. So you get the same benefits as any other marketplace products which is seamless deployments and consolidated billing. So you get the same benefits as the products in the AWS Marketplace for your machine learning algorithms and model packages. And this is really important because these can be directly integrated into our SageMaker platform. And I don't even ask about the data products as well and I'll be really happy to provide and quote one of the example over here. In the interest of COVID times and because we are in the unprecedented times over here, we collaborated with our partners to provide some data products and one of them is Data Hub by Capitol Hill that gives you the time series data of cases and debt that are gathered from multiple trusted sources. And this is to provide better and informed knowledge so that everyone who was utilizing this product can make some infocussions and help the community at the end. I love it, I love this concept of being able to access the data, algorithms, tooling and it's not just about the data, it's being able to do something with the data and that we've been talking about injecting intelligence into those data marketplaces. That's what we mean by smart data marketplaces. Stuti Deshpande, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, sharing your knowledge and tell us a little bit about AWS. It was a pleasure having you. It was my pleasure too. Thank you so much for having me here. 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Communication, down here perhaps, communication is a basic skill most of us practice every day often without really realising we're doing it and rarely intentionally. My name is Donna Benjamin, I'm a project lead at Catalyst IT and I sit on the board of the Drupal Association. But what makes me qualified to talk to all of you about communication? A colleague made me realise that I'd been taking some of my skills for granted. I have a Bachelor of Arts in theatre and drama. I have another qualification in internet and web computing and I'm a qualified trainer. All of those things add up to me having studied a body of knowledge that I don't even think about now. It's kind of like once you learn to ride a bicycle you don't think about how you learnt to ride a bicycle or the mechanical actions you take to keep those wheels turning. I take it for granted. My colleague was prompted to ask me about this because I was so relaxed and comfortable about speaking in front of people. It didn't fill me with dread or nerves like some of our other colleagues were discussing and their challenges of how to improve their speaking skills. So this was what prompted a little bit of reflection. So that's what I sort of bring to the stage if you like, a sense of stage craft, of connecting with you as a great stage craft in action. Okay, so this is me. I've already gone through this. So what I wanted to do today was to invite you into a conversation, not just stand up here and talk at you for an hour. I wanted us to kind of engage a little bit in this thing, this thing called communication. Stage craft is just one element. This bit, me, broadcasting to you speaking is only one element. The thing you learn when you work in theatre is that you need to know yourself as much as anything else so that you are able to perhaps pretend to be someone else. And that's probably the one tip I give most people who are first standing up on stage and wondering how they're going to do it and I say, pretend it's not you. It's not about you. It's about all of you. It's the audience. Know thy audience. This to me is the real key to communication. It's what's happening. It's what you're all doing right now. You're actually the important factor in communication. It's the listening that matters. We usually think when we talk about communication, about the broadcast bits, about the speaking, about the writing or reading or presenting, speaking, talking, whether it's broadcast on whatever medium, whether it's a billboard, it's all about the kind of broadcast part. But I want us to bring back and say, perhaps that's not the whole story. It's the listening that matters. And how do we improve our listening skills to be more effective communicators? Communication is a two-way street. I love this image. There's a lot of communication going on in this picture. Does anyone want to kind of call out some of the things they see here? Why would this, why would I say this is communication? It's all right. You can speak. Street signs? Yes. There's two street signs. What else? Beautiful. So I'm going to repeat for the recording. On the one side of the street there's a lot of free expression. And on the other side, there's a lady hiding behind a curtain. Yes. Thank you. So there's a lot going on here. There's graffiti. Graffiti is an amazing form of communication. It's not very, generally not authorised. In Melbourne, where I'm from, it's become street art and very well loved and recognised. But it wasn't always so, right? So graffiti. And there's artwork and there's signs. And one of those signs is one way that I'm saying communication is that two-way street. So this is one of the reasons why this matters. This is pretty interesting time in history. We have up to five generations of people in our workplaces. That's extraordinary. They all have different ways of preferring how they consume and engage in communication. They may not necessarily fit the stereotypes, but it's just this vast kind of array of types and sorts and things. As many as five generations with diverse communication appetites make up today's workforce. So let's get into it. I wanted to kind of distill this big, broad, hairy topic of communication into three things. The what, the how and the why. So let's start with the what. And I'm actually not going to spend a lot of time here. I think about the what as the actual message you're trying to communicate. The idea, the story, whatever it is that is that message is the what. And I kind of distill it right down into what we often do with communication is transmit culture, whether it's workplace culture, big art stuff, we're often transmitting culture and all of the little bits and pieces that live within that. But that's not where I want to dwell today. I think the big bit is the how. This is where we all have room to grow. No matter how great a communicator you are, if you take the idea that you can always be better, if you can focus on developing your mastery, this is where we all have room to grow. How do we communicate? Now, if you read your abstracts carefully, you were you were warned that I would ask you to engage in a little bit of communication. What I'd like you to do is turn to the person beside you or clump into threes or fours. Have a chat about this question. How do you communicate? How? What does this mean? How do you communicate? I'm going to give you a couple of minutes.  Because I think we all do this every day, right? But we don't stop to think about it.  I would suspect there are a few of you in the room today. Hands up if you consider yourself a communications professional. There's a few of you, right? So you probably do think intentionally about what communication is.  The rest of us are absolutely brilliant amateurs, okay? So huddle up, group, cluster, have a chat. How do we communicate? Okay. I see some of you starting to wrap up your conversations. Others are still in full force. So as you sort of start to kind of bring your thoughts together, some of you who perhaps finished early came to some clear conclusions quickly, perhaps. Some of you has got into heated debates, I could tell from the noise and the energy in the room. Yeah. So someone perhaps, you know, call out some of the some of the thoughts or insights that you had. How do we communicate? Got some, some thoughts to share? Yes. So let me see if I got this. So starting with some people use phone calls, but perhaps they like to use face to face. And there's the difference between speaking to customers and Hello, welcome, come on in. And some of the challenges of having different types of communication to those different audiences. Yeah, great. Thank you. Some some others. How do we communicate? I've thrown up some of the elements of it. And I imagine that some of you touched on on some of these. What are others? Yes. So there's a shift from having used the phone to starting to use video and have that opportunity to see people as they communicate, which adds facial expressions and more richness than you get just on the phone. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. That's really interesting. So George is talking about his organization where they've got a combination of people working together in the one place present. And they've got a number of others who are working distributed. And they're coming in and and if you've even just got one person distributed prompts everyone to use the augment the communication with technology so that it allows everyone to participate to the same extent. Lovely. Thank you. Yes. That's a lovely story. Thank you. So just to sort of summarize that is this person from amazing labs is building up their distributed team and they're they're finding that that that difference between the the located team and the people who are coming in distributed over technology, the lack of the remotors being able to see body language and nonverbal communication that we all do and take for granted when we're with each other. Like I could make a whole bunch of physical slapstick that would never go on the recording. Right. There's physical things that we do.  These things are huge. But when we start to have this sort of blended situation, we realize how much we're missing and think about how we have to compensate. Thank you. Really great insight. Thank you. Yes, sham. Thank you, sham. So the the key learning that sham has has found is that that in person connection upfront makes a really big difference. And so they've built that into their process that it changes. Have others found that? Is that a common kind of yes, some nodding, some hands up at the back? Yes. So, you know, because we lose so much in in using technology when we lose those visual cues, making that initial connection is really important. And it's one I would argue that once you've had an opportunity to connect face to face, it gives you a lot more leeway to be understanding about the things you might be missing when you don't have it. Yeah. Thank you, sham. Great. And thank you. Yeah. Lovely. Is anyone else doing that? Few? Yeah, that's so. So what they're doing for the recordings benefit is the Louise company have started doing or have been doing for some time, a newsletter. Because what they're finding is that when people are communicating, they kind of know what's going on, they've been involved in that. But it's all the stuff they don't know that's going on that gets really frustrating. And so collating that and putting it into a newsletter and a sort of out of band, I guess, non synchronous means of communication gives it everybody a chance to get up to speed. Lovely. Thanks, Louise. All right, let's have one more. Yes. Yes. Yes. Reformulating was the word used absolutely. And it comes into mind. Oh, it's gone to sleep again. Dammit. I'll continue on. It's the important part about listening in my view is clarifying that you have understood the message someone is trying to give you and then giving them a sense of feedback and reassurance that they've been understood and reformulating that back in a way, which is not just repeating exactly what they said, but showing that you've internalized it and understood it is is really important part of it. That's fantastic. Thank you. Okay, so I'm going to have to wake that up again in a minute, but I'm going to let you have another think about what made about how we communicate and we've talked about technology and some of the challenges of being in person and present and having teams who are remote. But what are the things that set someone apart? So if you think of a great communicator, what are some of the behaviors or traits that you think I'm going to have a little chat while I get my computer back on back on the stage. Have another little chat. Maybe you've got some examples. Maybe you can think of great communicators. Maybe they are people. Maybe they're colleagues or maybe it's just behavior that you've you've learned to recognize. Okay, so just have a quick chat while I beat my computer into submission. Okay, what makes someone a great communicator? What do you think of with the words a great communicator? Do you think of Star Trek? Seriously, what makes someone a great communicator? A storyteller. Yes, lovely. Yes, the possibility of listening, listening to the person you're communicating with. Yes, being very selective, regardless of who you're talking to with a colleague or a client, you want to make sure that you're coming across as clearly as possible. That makes me think of another one, which is choosing the right language. Now, we're in Europe, so I'm sure that many of you are multilingual. So there's human languages. And are you speaking in a language that you share, or are you using a third language, but also professional language, jargon. We often get lack clarity when we get start using jargon. Lovely. Thank you.  Again, I think that's part of that listening piece. Great. Thank you. Beautiful. I think that's the TLDR for my whole talk. I love it. So let me see if I can, if I can do a justice, I might get it back in pieces. It's clarity, brevity without distorting what you're trying to say. I'm missing one and consistency that you carry through on that your actions meet what you're saying. No contradiction between what you're saying and what you're doing are the signs of a great communicator. Thank you, Raj. Lovely. There was one, yes, huge, massive. Now I want to have Aretha Franklin come in. Respect. We don't get good communication without respect. The talk I gave a couple of years ago was actually on constructive conflict resolution and respect and respecting your opponent is so critical. So yeah, even when you don't agree, respect makes such a difference. Yeah, thank you. And there was one, yes. That is beautiful. I'm not sure I can repeat that and give it justice. A great communicator is someone who can leave their listener feeling respected and empowered, not diminished and degraded. Yeah, lovely, thank you. Two more, I'm loving this. This is fabulous, yes. Yes. A great communicator makes sure they're prepared and organized, which gives the people who they're meeting with a sense of that their expectations will be met. Yeah, lovely, thank you. It's a good one, yes. Absolutely. Empathy, up there with respect. We don't have a song like R-E-S-P-E-C-T on empathy, but that's actually one of the ones which I think goes to the heart of why I think listening is the skill that we can all do to practice, because really listening and taking the time to understand gives you the opportunity to develop empathy for what that person is saying and where they're coming from. Thanks Greg, really good, yes. I would say some are, some are and perhaps but not with good intent. Very great question. So the comment there was, I agree with all of this, how could I not? It's all sort of probably pretty self-evident, but would I say a politician was a great communicator? Yeah, hands up. Let's see what the audience thinks. Do you think politicians are great communicators? Summer, summer, there's lots of hands kind of doing the wavy thing. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? When I was doing some of my background reading for this talk, I also went looking for great communicators and I don't know, you may have picked up from my accent on Australian. Our former Prime Minister Julia Gillard was not generally actually a great communicator in my view in terms of getting up and speaking, but she gave one cracker of a speech in Parliament called the misogyny speech and she was diabolical and the contrast with that talk where she was delivering with passion and like off the cuff compared with some of the very formal, you know, communication that she would do to camera and press conferences and stuff. But that was really interesting. And another example was actually Michelle Obama and when they go low, we go high speech. And that example was talking not about necessarily just, you know, a natural talent, but that she had practised. But what was key about that particular speech was how tuned it was to the audience. It was not just about standing up and giving a flourish of oratory like perhaps her husband was used to doing, but she really connected with a lot of people in a really sort of powerful way. I think that was kind of interesting. So this sense of what makes someone a great communicator can vary. So Julia Gillard's politician, Michelle Obama not really a politician, but really a politician. Yeah, interesting. Thank you. Great, great comment. Yeah. That is very interesting. I'm going to try and repeat that back. Part of the challenge that we have as Drupalists is common in with politicians that the thing we have to talk about is perhaps not something they necessarily want to listen to, you know, and it can come across as something they're not interested in and how do we find the way to make it relevant to them, sort of. Okay, very good. Thank you. And of course my computer's gone to sleep again. I don't know if you noticed, I was playing with my power settings and it's conspiring against me. Clearly, I need a communication kind of remediation with my computer later. We'll have a conversation. So what makes a great communicator? So all of these things, that ability to tune into the audience, I think is one of the real differentiators. Then I think there's just some basic skill technique stuff that people learn and that comes back to the stuff around stage craft. Little things like, I'm not kind of like when I first, you know. So that's just technique, right? So there's some of that stuff that you can just learn and practice. I've not been doing a very good job of this one today, but speaking more slowly, especially if you speak a different language to your audience, or you have a funny accent, as I do, to take the time to speak more slowly and clearly than perhaps you would if you were just having a conversation with somebody, things like that. Another one, which I've also been guilty of not doing properly for this one, is never look at your slides if you're giving a talk. You should actually continue to look at your audience and if you're really lucky, you might have a prompt, a foot video. If you don't, this is what I've done. Not that it's really working for me today, but hey, that's a different story, right?  And the other one is you'll notice I'm not here, right? Does that seem like a difference, like if I was doing this whole talk from here? I, you know, I'm a little height challenged versus here where I can be much more engaged and directed with you. I'm not hiding behind something. There's not something between me and you. These are little things. These are things you can learn and lots of people can teach this stuff, right? But it's stuff I just didn't even think about because of my theatre background. I just sort of took it for granted. And someone said, no, there's something in that. Maybe it's something that we can remind people that, hey, we can learn this as technologists, as Drupalists. You know, we don't necessarily think about using stuff like stage craft, using your whole stage. And this one, this is the only point where I've actually I'm in light. And I can feel that. That's something I learned in theatre. I can feel that there's light on me here as opposed to over here in the dark. Here I be gollum. Precious. Humour. Silliness. This is another way to connect with your audience.  There were people who were like completely not paying attention. But now they're like, oh, what's going on? I missed something because you laughed. Yeah. All right. So I talked about the what. And I've talked a bit about the how. The bit about the how I haven't spoken much about is the channels. You know, when I say we've got, you know, five generations in the workplace, this vast array of preference of how people like to talk, like moving from phone to video, like preferring to meet in person, like having a newsletter. All of these things are different channels. And there's just more and more of them. And there's going to be more and more of them. So it was our friend, Marshall McLuhan, who said, the medium is the message. And it's never been more true. The thing that you're communicating is intrinsically linked into the way you're communicating or the myth that you're using. Never forget that. Make the most of it. The thing you can communicate in a tweet versus the thing you can communicate in a presentation like this. There's a common thread, but you use different words. You have a different scope for using it. So the medium is the message. And excuse me while I just step behind the curtain again and have another conversation with my computer. While I do that, I want you to think about that how. So we've talked about stuff like listening, verbal, non-verbal, body language, the channels and all that sort of stuff. Can you perhaps, I'm in your little chat, think about where that's come together for you in a really powerful and interesting way where the medium and the message were beautifully aligned. Yeah?  Okay, let's bring this home. So let's have a couple of examples. When I'm also conscious they were in the lunch one time slot and there's a lunch two time slot.  So I'm keeping that in mind. So I just want to come back to this. Any ideas where the how, the how we do it, the medium come together in interesting ways in really well aligned examples. I want to find a couple. No one had any. When your wife is pregnant and she's only showing you the indicator, the medium and the message are beautifully aligned. Very good. Thank you. Nice one. That's visual. That's non verbal. Yeah. Yes. The safety demonstration that stewards give. Yes. What a great one. It's like the medium and the message are perfectly aligned. Yeah. Nice one. A lot in this. Okay. Yes. Sorry. Asking, putting your hand up. Yes. Yeah. I haven't thought a great one. I haven't thought about so that the act of putting up your hand is a message. And the medium all in one. Yeah, really nice. Okay. One more. I could do this all day, but we don't have time. Going. Going. All right. So which brings me to the why. We talked about the what. Very briefly. Transmitting culture. The how, which is where we can practice and build our skills in all sorts of different ways and all sorts of different, you know, perhaps becoming mime artists to improve our body language. Practicing speaking, writing, listening all those things. But really why the why of communication? Why do we do it? What's the point of all of this sound and fury signifying nothing? So if you want to make a difference, instead of making a point, make sure you have a call to action. Very communication, he does speak, right? CDA, right? You've got a CDA button called to action. But I think this goes beyond that. I think that the ultimate point of all communication is to drive transformation of some kind. Perhaps you're absorbing content because you want to learn. So learning is the why. Perhaps you want to change the world. Perhaps you want to have a different conversation with yourself. So that action, what steps will you take because of a communication? And if you're thinking about your audience, when you're communicating to them, how do you want them to be transformed? What steps will they be now empowered to take that they couldn't before? What is that next step? Like what is the why? Why are we absorbing all of this information? Why are we ignoring so much information? What is it that makes it communication? The dialogue, the transformation, the why? This is one I don't necessarily have an answer for. And there will be a different answer for every message. But there has to be a reason. There has to be some purpose. And I'd like to say there has to be some kind of impact and action that drives the need for that communication. Perhaps it's a simple thing like I understand better now. It doesn't necessarily have to be earth-shattering. But that why really has to inform both the how and the what to really get at the heart of your why. Make sure you have a call to action. So bringing it together, distilling it down of all of the communication skills there are, listening to me is the most important one. The what is the listening? The how is daily practice. We get better at things when we practice them and do it with intention and say I can improve on that. That we do it with others. We can help others get better by working with them. And they say you only really learn when you teach. So how do we encourage better listening? And what does that really mean? And I think some of the things that come up around seeking clarification, asking questions, building empathy, daily practice to reach mastery. You just keep working on it. You don't settle on your plateau that I can talk good now and that'll do daily practice. Listen. And ultimately that why? To have more impact. If you really take the time to listen to your audience rather than expect them just to listen to you you're likely to have more impact because you'll tune your message. You'll use the medium, the channel more effectively because you're being audience focused. We talk about user centered design. I'm advocating for audience centered communication. Any questions? Thank you very much. It was very clear and no questions. But I do see a hand right at the back. So something wasn't clear. So what was? Yes. So what is that? What is a hard problem encountered when trying to improve your communication? What are some of the really more challenging things? Well, I think it's one of those ones that varies for different people. So I'll use one of my own examples. And I guess why I've why I've chosen listening is probably a bit of personal bias as well as an extroverted kind of person.  Right. So that one's challenging for me sometimes. But I think the hard problems are really finding the bit that interests you. And I think sometimes it's harder to get better at something you're good enough at. Like whenever we're completely new to an area, we can we can improve really quickly, really easily by just doing some basic stuff, right? We can all get better at any bit of communication that we're currently not that comfortable with because you just need to do it a couple of times and you go, oh, that wasn't that hard after all. But I think where the real challenge comes is where you step into wanting to do mastery to become an expert at it. And I would say in some ways you can never really be an expert. There's always room to grow and improve. Good question though. Yeah. Good one. Yes. Great question and a really hard one. What do you do when the person you need to communicate with doesn't want to communicate? That they're shut down and they're, I've got an answer here. So I'll see if I can summarize that because I agree. It's like that the reason for the message is really important. So if they if they're not understanding that this communication has a reason and it's going to be make something better, you know, the action that comes out of it is going to make things better, then that's a that's a real challenge. But I think one of the things I don't think we covered it is open mindedness and how to encourage someone to take a step and unfurl those crossed arms. I think there's a key in there is like making sure that they understand what the purpose of that communication is. Perhaps they're closed because they're afraid. Perhaps making sure that it's a safer space for them to have that communication in might encourage it. There are so many reasons though why that why that door is down finding asking what would open the door might be a way forward. Really nice one. I'll come back to you to see if there's one more because you've had a few goes. Any other any other quest? Yes. So I think this is similar to the doesn't want to communicate but a sort of step even further away, which is they don't they don't want to come along on the same journey, I guess that they have an opposite view. I think that goes beyond communication to inter-conflict resolution where you've basically got oppositional perspectives and do you need to resolve it or can those different perspectives still be part of the moving forward? So it's a I think that one's a tricky one. I think that one's a tricky one. All right. I'm conscious of time. I would love to have this conversation not like this but round tables and continuing on because I think we could all go on for ages. I will put the slides up. There's some references here of different bits and pieces that I kind of tapped into as I develop the talk. Most importantly, join us for the contribution sprints or encourage others to do so. Great. That's happening on Friday. And finally, I would I really have an appeal to you. It's difficult to have a dialogue when there's a stage and an audience, but I would really love you to give me the other side of the dialogue. Let me hear from you as my audience and evaluate this session. I've put the short shorthand in there. 18, 8, 2, 9, node. We're Drupalists, right? We know what nodes are. Events.drupal.org slash node slash 18, 8, 2, 9. Got it? Say it with me. 18, 8, 2, 9. I want to get more evaluations for this session that I've ever had before. And they can be terrible. I don't care if they're bad but I would just love to hear your feedback and your ongoing thoughts. What have you taken away? What are going to be your action steps going forward? Thank you. Now go get some lunch. Sorry? Oh, I just shut it down. But yeah, sure. Very frustrating. Thank you. Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Let's do it. Enjoy it, girl. And I am collecting some of these. Oh, very good. OK, let's do it. I don't want to take your time. Right. Yeah, I want the selfie. This is my first day. Oh, really? Yes, for today. Very good. Yeah, my first. Ready? Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for your comments, too. No problem, no problem. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for the great session. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your contributions, too. Thank you. And I don't want to expect things like people don't want to communicate. But sometimes they don't want to do it. So then you put that perspective and like go away. Absolutely. Absolutely. So sometimes people are trying to communicate. But if people don't want to let it go, it's right there. Yeah, it's all in the if you love something, set it free as well. Like, no, I have to take that. You've got nothing to say or add at the point. Or the reasons why you don't want to communicate are private and absolute. Very not too great. Very much great. We call them, like, don't don't stop. And no one should report or communicate to someone who doesn't want to. Absolutely. Yep, absolutely. Give me a minute to just get packed up and I'll come and chat when I'm done. It's been very bad with the Hague, it's not going to grow. So I think, I was like very much appreciative for our fun. It's okay to give up on it because it's just been bad. But it's not good. I don't know if the power of it coming through...


Hey guys, it's Vinnie's here, your Community Outreach Specialist and today I'm with Deputy Peeney and Kei Nanyogi who may make an appearance at some point, but we're going to give you a quick short video just to talk about how Deputy Peeney and Kei Nanyogi get ready pre-shipped, what they do, all that good stuff, so what do you do? So pre-shipped when I'm getting dressed and Yogi hears the sound of my belt clipping together, he's already at the front door, he's barking, and he's jumping up and spinning around in a circle, and this happens the whole entire time I'm getting dressed. Like bunny hopping in a circle? No, not bunny hopping, like just like from a sit, jumping and spinning in a circle, he's right at the door, yes, or he'll jump up on the door, trying to get up basically. He's ready to go, he knows, he knows, he's like, dad, let's go. He knows it's time to work. Or if I go out and I start my car, it looks like to do that to let the AC start running. Smart. He's already barking and stuff, he's like, let me out, dad, let me get in the car. Alright, what else, is there anything that you do special for Yogi? I know you guys had mentioned before that they have to eat a certain amount of time before they come on.  You're not going to say that that's the first time that you feed him, we're going to edit out this part right here, so you feed him. No, that's not the first time I feed him, but I feed him when I get home from work, and then usually in the morning. So you feed him when you get home from work and first thing in the morning, so for the people that don't know, you work nights, so you get home at like, you get off at 2, somewhere around there, so like, it's like a midnight snack at your farm, and then eat. They're like, well, it's a midnight snack. I'm one of those midnight eaters. Probably. I don't really condone eating in the middle of the night, unless, I don't know, it depends on the circumstances. Okay, so that's it, nothing special, no, nothing for Yogi, Kaz's call. Kaz's caller, and that's it? Yep, that's it. Okay, what else for you? For me, so when I come on the ship, I just stab and get a bang to energize. Everybody has their one brand, everybody has their one brand, sponsor us, bang, just saying. Just drink water and I try and catch up on some paperwork that I've had any left over from the night before. Procrastination? Is that what I hear? A little bit, I'm kind of... I saw a meme earlier that said, the only reason that I still procrastinate is because I still get things done. So that's why I continue to procrastinate. I'm just like, that's very true. Yeah, but it's nice to not procrastinating. Sometimes you feel more accomplished. We don't condone procrastinating. We don't. But just get yourself done. Exactly. We're human. All right, so paperwork, your bang, water, getting Yogi excited to get in the car. And sometimes I'll meet up with some of the guys on patrol to see kind of like what our plan is for the night, what we want to get into. And we'll just talk about previous shifts or usually I'll come and I'll talk to Nick and I'll see what he did throughout the day. Nick being Deputy Carmack. Deputy Carmack to see if maybe there's any cars that he's looking for or something that I can keep my eye out for as well. And not being because you guys work the same time as scheduled, but he works days. So you kind of come in not to relieve him, but kind of you guys overlap a little bit. Yeah, kind of we overlap, but it's just nice to know like what he's looking for out there. Extra set eyes. Anything else that sticks out to you that you know, nothing else.  No sort of music or anything. Of course. Of course. So it's not like, you know, pretty lead metal. Like let me get my music playing right now. So is there anything that you listen to to hype you up? Yeah. Coming into work. Certain types of music, motivational videos. On YouTube or certain podcasts. What kind of podcast? I'm a podcast. Casual learning. It's called TNQ podcast. It's Teen Never Quit. Okay.  It's awesome. I know it. Yeah. So TNQ, shout out to TNQ and whoever the guy's name is. Marcus Luttrell, you don't know me. I'm sorry. I don't know you. You're losing cool points right now. Wow. Okay. So before I just chat, I will research and I will know Marcus Luttrell, TNQ. I'll go listen to like podcast number like one through five, depending on how long they are. But anything else? That's pretty much it. It's pretty much it. Oh, I always have, I always have water in the car for you. Okay. She's got a jug back there right now. Yeah. Specifically for him. You guys don't share this. He has his own gallon. Because you see, the reason why we don't share is because when I'm pouring the water into his bowl. Sharing is caring. No, okay. I understand that. I give him my water. However, if it comes from the jug that I was drinking out of. When he licks it, he licks the mountain. Oh, he licks it. Yeah. And I'm like, I can't do it. Too slumber. Yeah. You get puppy kisses, but not. That's just excessive. That's a little too much. Same with mine. Same with mine. All right. That's cool. So hope you guys enjoyed getting to just hear what Deputy Peany does with Kana and Yogi before he comes into a shift. And do not forget to like, comment, subscribe and we'll see you next time.


Good afternoon. You are with the Vermont house government operations committee. We are we're going to spend a little bit of time this afternoon. About an hour, just discussing the executive order. We've had a chance to take some testimony over the past week or so on the proposal to create an agency of public safety. And I guess I want to open this up to an opportunity for some committee discussion about questions that you that you still would like answered. Are there are there more pieces of information that you that you hope to understand are there parts of the executive order that you feel more or less peaceful with. So I'm just going to leave this time for sort of an open committee discussion and and let people raise their hand to jump in with any thoughts that they have. This is where the member from Chittenden would have jumped in and really sparked off a whole robust committee discussion so it should be noted that that we all the member from Chittenden but member from a new ski how what you got. Thank you madam chair. I guess after thinking about our, the testimony to be heard last week. The one that stands out for me is about money. And when I when I asked the commissioner of public safety about what would this cost his response was $400,000 which is basically increased salaries. And I've served on a number of boards, some large boards, two of them went through mergers. One many years ago Champlain Housing Trust, most recently Vermont PBS. And we spent at least better part of two years doing the work to figure out how this is going to work and spend money on lawyers and consultants and so forth. So, it's just hard to really imagine how this is going to cost $400,000. So, I would like to understand what's, what's the plan and what will it cost. How will this work. It was to transition into an agency. Okay. So a more detailed breakdown and more information on where, where the costs lie. Exactly. Thank you. Go ahead Peter. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm, I'm in two places in terms of my unease. One is following a question that yourself and and others have posed, namely, could you articulate what kind of statutory rearrangements are implied by this. And that the executive order properly should not or cannot short circuit. Where's the list what, how would I know what the lift is going to have to be in terms of legislative attention. I'm not going to go into the arena, so to say that I really would need to understand before I went yay or nay is the fate, if I may use a charged word of the so-called independent commissions that are implied to be rolled into this. The E 911 board and the criminal justice council. As my good friend, Vice Chair has pointed out, the latter of those who is a very new and I think important reformation, active reformation. There's a lot of, how shall I say, goodwill, but also a serious thought that went into the creation of that and one of the thought processes was to make sure that it was not hostage to a budget squabble or a power squabble. And so I would really be uneasy rolling that in E 911 is in one sense easier, but again back representative Colson's point that becomes a money issue, frankly, and and I'm uneasy as to how that is going to progress, do its duty, remain robust, knowing that it will have to undergo some technological transformations, and nobody's put a dollar sign next to any of that. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. I would also like to echo what Hal and others have spoken about because it is important to me to know that if we are going to be using more funds or where the funds are going to be used that we are fully aware of, like today I just want to make sure that we are getting answers and interviewing people from all over so that way, when whoever's presenting this on the floor, you know, we're not being caught with like, oh, we actually didn't hear from a certain group or a certain section of people. And so we have well rounded and testimony. Also, for me, I'm just hearing from people that are the ones working on the ground that they are nervous about the transition or they're not happy about it, really makes me nervous to say yes or no to something when I know that it's going to be greatly affecting people that are putting in the work. And I really like to put that into consideration, along with the statutes that might need to change it makes me uneasy with the amount of tension that there was last week. If something is being worded correctly or not. Thank you. Thanks, Sam. Tonya. I share concerns with the independence of the Criminal Justice Council and that maintaining independence. I also have had multiple constituents reach out with concerns and they are constituents that would be on the ground affected by this and that along with the VSE a testimony really gives me pause. I feel like they're with given the many concerns and the extensive legislative changes that would need to be enacted it really feels best to me that this go through the legislative process and be fully opened to public comment and really the ability to craft something that is thoughtful and really welcomes all voices of those who would be impacted by a change like this. Thanks Tonya Rob Leclerc. Thank you Madam Chair. Because the member from Chittenden is not here to defend himself I'm going to say that I'm not sure his questions were always relevant. They're always first but not always relevant. I would like to know more about what legislative changes have to happen. What statute are we looking at here because I'm getting into distinct feeling that this is, I'm not unsupportive of this idea, but I get the feeling that there's an awful lot more work behind the scenes than people anticipate so I would like to know legislatively what's got to happen. Bob Hooper. Thank you Madam Chair, I am unsupportive of the idea and I, you know, to address the issue that has just been raised. This is not a new proposal as the commissioner has said down this road to the point where it's fairly fairly rutted. And I think if we look back in our history we would see what needs to happen to make this proposal work and we would probably see why it hasn't gone forward in the many many iterations that it has been presented before. But somewhat along the lines of what Tonya has said, most of the people that I'm hearing from employees or generally immediately affected by this are just really uncomfortable with the ambiguity of one who is older going so far as to ask where's the beef, which takes you back to Burger King commercials from many years ago. So I, I would have to see a lot of evidence to bring me around to the point where I would not be asking us to move unfavorably on this. Thank you. Mike Marwicky. Thank you Madam Chair. I would say tradition in house government operations at times like this to look at the portrait on the wall by the door of a former chair of the committee and state that everything has been said now but not everyone has had a chance to say it. I think I have something different. A little bit from what's been said and my concern is, is the process right here. And I believe overstepping the bounds of using an executive order. My concern is it's being done here. It's being done in another avenue with Act 250 and there's concerns that there's a similar proposal on the launching pad that this will that will affect the childcare system being swallowed by the agency of legislation. And I think there are big concerns with this specific proposal but the bigger picture I'm concerned with, with whether this is this is the way to do things. Thanks Mike. Any other committee members want to jump in. Right. So, in anticipation of this committee conversation today I asked Ameron to prepare a resolution that would decline the executive order. As you recall from our discussion of the executive order statute. The decision on this needs to be made by April 14. I think given the sort of broad range of concerns about budget impacts and statutory changes that have maybe not yet been contemplated and a need to get busy doing some of that statutory work. I would like to put this proposal or this resolution on the table for the committee's consideration. If it is the will of the committee that we should reject the executive order then it makes sense to be respectful and make that decision sooner rather than later so that if the administration does want to propose legislation that there would be time for the commission to be put on our dockets here before we get too far along in this session. So, if you would go to the committee page right now and take a look at documents under today's date. And a house resolution disapproving the executive order. And so I'm going to invite Ameron to help us walk through that we'll all look at it on our secondary devices so if you can just help us understand the words on the page and then we can open up to a committee discussion on that. Sounds great for the record Ameron Abergeley legislative council. Let me open up the document here on my page. Okay. So this is house resolution disapproving executive order 01-21. This is a series of whereas statements on the first page which lay out some background on the executive order. The executive order 01-21 was submitted to the House and Senate on January 14, 2021, and provides the for the creation of the agency of public safety. According to the executive order effective April 15, 2021, the agency of public safety shall be created and shall assume all duties, responsibilities and authority of the Department of Public Safety, the Vermont Criminal Justice Council, the Vermont Enhanced 9-1-1 Board, and the Department of Motor Vehicles Enforcement Division. And that would all take place on or before July 1, 2022. Whereas the Committee on Government Operations has taken testimony and public comment concerning this executive order. And whereas the House of Representative agrees with the governor's goals of law enforcement modernization and reform and optimal government efficacy. And whereas the House of Representatives supports improving the organization of state law enforcement operations, modernizing the state's data collection and reporting technology, expanding alternative crisis response methodologies, providing enhanced statewide model policies and key areas, modernizing hiring practices, training and supervisor selection, and developing community oversight models. Moving on to page two. And whereas the House of Representatives wishes to ensure that the governor's reorganization achieve these goals without leading to unintended consequences. And whereas the House of Representatives is concerned the Department of Public Safety does not have the capacity to ensure the success of the governor's reorganization plan, given that Vermont is in the midst of a state of emergency related to the COVID-19 pandemic, and recently reached the highest level of threat alert achieved since the 9-11 terrorist attacks in 2001. And whereas the House of Representatives envisioned the Vermont Criminal Justice Council to be an independent entity with public oversight over law enforcement, and is concerned that moving the Vermont Criminal Justice Council under the control of a state law enforcement agency could undermine the public's confidence in the council's professional regulation of law enforcement and jeopardize the council's ability to execute its mission free from undue political influence. And whereas, given the complexity of reorganizing the Department of Public Safety and other law enforcement emergency response services, the best mechanism to pursue this reorganization is the legislative process with the resulting opportunity for enhanced research analysis and public participation. And whereas part of the legislative process, the House Committee on Government Operations looks forward to reviewing and taking testimony on the administration's complete proposal to create the agency of public safety, and then it would be resolved by the House of Representatives that the House pursuant to three VSA section 2002 disapproves of executive order 01-21, and further resolves that the House of Representatives invites the administration to bring forward draft legislation for the reorganization of public safety services that can be fully considered during the second year of this biennium. And lastly be it resolved that the clerk of the House be directed to send a copy of this to Governor Scott. Thank you, Amron. Questions from committee members. Either clarifying questions or questions on the content. Mike Marwicky. I just want to say that is some fine writing. Well done. Thank you. Any other questions from committee members? Committee discussion, Hal Colston. Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a process question. So, if this resolution goes, well, I may have already answered it, because it seems that the administration can't make amendments to its first resolution because it's already in the queue being processed. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. That's what I was wondering. Thank you. Mike, your hands up, but I think Sam LaFave is next. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I apologize for not fully understanding, but have we came to a conclusion or been notified of a conclusion if it is suffice for only us to send this in or will Senate need to also send it in for it to be paused? Our legislative council believes that the way the section 2002 is written means that one chamber, either the House or the Senate needs to disapprove and I doubt if there is going to be much universal appetite to have a deep argument about that instead, I would hope that we would simply move forward with the other avenue of restructuring, which would be to have the administration put a bill on the table for us to consider. Thank you. I did not know if we had any new updates from our previous discussion. So thank you very much. I will go back and just check here with Amron for a moment. Is there any update or review that you've become aware of that would change the opinion that statute as it was written means that one chamber needs to disagree? No, there is not any new information. Section 2002 is very specific that disapproval is by either body of the General Assembly to the extent that there have been conversations about the constitutionality of that 2002 is the current law at this time. So to the extent if there were ever to in the future be a challenge as to whether it's constitutional to have one body or both. There are, I think as Chief Council, Martland said there could be arguments either way but at this point 2002 is still the current law and it should be followed. Thanks Amron. John Gannon. Thanks. And just to follow up on that I think, you know, Luke was very clear that you cannot rewrite statute via an executive order. Is that correct Amron? You cannot rewrite 2002. Thank you. So we have to follow the existing statute, which only requires a single house to disapprove of an executive order reorganizing an agency or agencies. Is that correct? Our recommendation is that you follow the law as it is currently written. Great, thank you. Mark. This is more of a process question. So this resolution would go to the floor for an up or down vote so it wouldn't go to any other committee, I'm assuming. Am I correct on that? I don't believe that it needs to the executive order was assigned to our committee. And so I believe the speaker would say that it is the job of our committee to report back to the floor. Thank you. All right. Any other committee discussion? John Gannon. So I just want to point out to people that if you looked at the Luke Martin's Martin's memo, you know, we identified several other executive orders. This is by far the largest change in government agencies to be conducted via executive order. We're talking about taking over multiple agencies with hundreds, if not thousands of employees through an executive order without any sort of legislation. And so I think people have to keep that in mind. I mean, you know, you know, you look at the, the executive order around liquor and lottery, which just required merging two different agencies. And that one was disapproved as well. Yet it did lead to a successful merger of liquor and lottery. So just because we disapprove it, disapprove this, that doesn't mean this is the final step in a process. You know, I think legislation would be a good strategy to move forward with such a large and complex merger, especially in the time of a pandemic. I mean, you know how mentioned costs. I don't even know how you would work and get, you know, employee support for something when they're dealing with the stresses of a pandemic and, you know, a heightened threat level in the state of Vermont. All right. Any other committee discussion. All right. So committee, I just want to make sure that we have had a chance to, to digest the content and be convinced that we're comfortable with the words on the page as proposed. I would ask you to go back to the beginning of the executive order and, and we'll consider each whereas clause, starting with the second one, because I think the first one is pretty straightforward contains the straight facts. We probably don't need to edit that. So this is the moment to take a look at each of the clauses of the of the resolution and and make any suggested changes or, or give them the thumbs up as we go through so the second whereas clause. According to the executive order effective April 15 the agency of public safety. It comes into being. And in this just specifies the particular boards councils and divisions that would that would go into that the honor before July 1 2022 for the motor vehicles enforcement division anyway. We'll be comfortable with the accuracy of the second whereas clause. All right. Next. Yes, we have taken testimony Rob LaClaire. Rob you got to unmute yourself. Sorry. I pads. I have a process question, Madam chair and one that are we going to take is a plan to take any more testimony around some of the questions that are lingering. Or are you basically looking to move the resolution. Later. In my mind, it would be most respectful and efficient if, if it is the will of the committee to reject the executive order that we make that resolution. We're going to work on the resolution and finish and go back to working on the other bills that we're working on so that the the administration can propose legislation for us to consider. So that's a very nice way of saying no we're not going to take any more testimony we're looking to move the resolution along. I mean, based on the committee discussion so far it doesn't mean that there's a lot of question in people's minds as to whether we ought to whether whether this change ought to be accomplished through legislation versus through an executive order so I don't see any reason to keep taking testimony specifically on the executive order. Okay. All right, thank you, Magier. Mike Marwicki. Good to go Mike. Oh, you know what, if I say that three times in a day, one of you turns into a pumpkin. Maybe we should have some sort of conditioning like I was in it used to be in a committee where if your cell phone would off you had to put a dollar in a jar. Ah, interesting. Oh, I like where this is going. Or the curse jar. Yes. I respect the members concerns about more witnesses but personally I don't need any. And if we need to start a vote on this to get it even a straw vote to get a sense of the committee. I'm ready for that. So let's go through the details of the resolution since we, we had amour and go through it once but I'd like you to look at each of the clauses and tell me whether you feel comfortable with with the focus of each of the whereas clauses. And then when we get to the end we can go ahead and take a committee vote. How's that sound. All right, so whereas the committee on government operations has taken testimony and public comments. So that's that. All right, the next clause the House of Representatives agrees with the governor's goal of law enforcement modernization and reform and optimal government efficacy. So that is a quote, and I'm assuming that quote is taken directly out of the goals that were stated in the executive order. Yes. All right, everybody comfortable with that excerpt that we will be able to go to the floor of the house and suggest that that that they adopt this statement that we agree. Okay. The next clause bottom of page one supports the House of Representatives supports the improving improving the organization of state law enforcement operations, modernizing the state's data collection and reporting technology, expanding alternative crisis technologies providing enhanced statewide models policies and key areas modernizing hiring practices training and supervisor selection and developing community oversight models. People comfortable with that. Excellent. All right, page two, whereas the House of Representatives wishes to ensure that the governor's reorganization achieves these goals without leading to unintended consequences. That hits on some of the concerns that some of you voiced about uncertainty of the impacts in in budget as well as in personnel areas. All right, whereas the House of Representatives is concerned that the Department of Public Safety doesn't have the capacity to ensure success of the governor's reorganization plan given that Vermont is in the midst of a state of emergency related to the COVID-19 pandemic, and recently reached the highest level of threat alert achieved since the 911 terrorist attacks in 2001. All right, I don't see anybody diving in to make a suggestion on that. Next whereas the House of Representatives envisioned the Criminal Justice Council to be an independent entity with public oversight over law enforcement and is concerned that moving the Vermont Criminal Justice Council under the control of state law agency could undermine the public's confidence in the council's professional regulation of law enforcement and jeopardize the council's ability to execute its mission free from undue political influence. Any committee discussion on that. Excellent. Next. Given the complexity of reorganizing the Department of Public Safety and other law enforcement and emergency response services, the best mechanism to pursue this reorganization is the legislative process with a resulting opportunity for enhanced research analysis and public participation. Any questions, comments or suggestions on that. Peter Anthony. Again, I don't want to wordsmith this and I almost didn't raise my hand but to suggest that this is the best, as opposed to the appropriate, sort of slides around, I think many of the history lessons I've had from people who've been around that this is an expansive undertaking, undertaking given the use of this statute for this kind of purpose. And I, I, again, that's a, maybe that's a policy observation. I don't know if it belongs in a whereas, but but it's not clear to me that we have honestly said what I think most of us have said in other forums or in the past days, namely, that this is a outsized attempt compared to the historical use of this statute. Again, I'm not sure what you want to achieve by these warehouses, but it seems to me, it's not only the best way. It's in context, the appropriate way. Any discussion on the use of the word best versus another word, like appropriate or proper or Tanya. I would say I agree with Representative Anthony that this does feel like based on precedence, a bit of an overreach for the use of an executive order and so it does feel to me like it is truly the appropriate avenue to go through legislation and I do think there is a significant difference there. Okay. So my suggestion that we strike best and and use the word appropriate Amron is there. Is there any concern on your part with changing that word. No. All right. Can I just take a straw poll at this moment is everybody okay with taking out best and using appropriate instead.  Good job. Okay, so we will change the phrase there to the appropriate mechanism to pursue this reorganization. Ready to move on to the next. All right, the top of page three the last whereas clause as part of the legislative process the House Committee on government operations. Looks forward to reviewing and taking testimony on the administration's complete proposal to create the agency of public safety committee discussion on the last whereas clause. All right. So now therefore be it resolved that by the House of Representatives that this legislative body pursuant to three VSA section two zero zero two disapproves executive order 0121 and be it further resolved that the House of Representatives invites the administration to bring forward draft legislation for the reorganization of public safety services that can be fully considered during the second year of this biennium questions and discussion on the resolved clause. All right, Rob LeClair. Thank you madam chair. I guess, you know, as far as the wording goes I understand it. I do have a concern procedurally or process wise here that nowhere was it notified that we were actually going to be taking any sort of official action on this. And it does seem to me that this is a rather significant piece of legislation and it would seem appropriate that all interested parties at least had some advanced notice that this was going to transpire. I would think that we could at least give them a 24 hours unless you were already thinking that madam chair. I appreciate the suggestion let's continue with a committee discussion on this while I ponder that question. Peter Anthony. Oh, trifecta. Number three you got to unmute yourself. I know that you all did this weekend but you forgot, you forgot all of your zoom tips and tricks here over the weekend sorry Peter go right ahead. That's okay I apologize. Again, it's it's the reference to next biennium I don't I wouldn't want to imply that somehow this has has to wait. There is a package in somebody's hip pocket or whatever ready to to come forth. This is actually out of deference to your, your judgment about what what our capacity is but to explicitly say next, next the second year the biennium. So that achieves anything other than saying go away till spring of 2022 and I'm not sure we need to say that. Okay, let's flag that because john had his hand up before you started that line of thinking so let's go to john and then we'll come back to the question of year two versus year one. I was actually to respond to, to Peter's question. J Johnson testified when we asked her if they had started drafting any bill language that they had not. Okay. Alright, back to Peter's point on this year versus next year. If, if as of a week and a half ago they had not started drafting it as hard to imagine that changes of this magnitude would be ready for us to consider this year but committee discussion on the question of which year of the biennium Mark Higley. There, I've unmuted. Thank you, Madam chair. I agree with Peter, even though they may not be ready. I don't think that the that second year the biennium piece needs to be in there. Bob Hooper. Thank you Madam chair this is a ignorance of process question which I'm asking solely for the benefit of the new people. I've listened to committee bill since we're past the individual member submission day is there any way that this session it could be brought in. There's always a way. Okay. Thank you. The House rules do allow a committee to bring forward a bill at any time and and you know we could we could take up language that was put on the on the literal committee table at any time and introduce it as a committee bill if it was the will of the committee to move forward with something. Thank you. Thank you Madam chair. I feel that it's important for us to be as supportive to this as we are saying, and not put a timeline on it at all. Because maybe there is an off chance that things get moved around and it's not even next year or it's so much earlier. So I would support just removing that that section. Thank you. Okay. Senator Anthony. I, I, I, I said what I said about the time, timing, not knowing as representative Cooper elicited that there was a extraordinary provision for something beyond now to be proposed. I have to tell you, my acquaintances in law enforcement said, there are a melding of otherwise separate departments that would be very desirable sharing of assets amongst folks who do very similar work. And, and so a lot of folks were supported now mind you, this was not troops on the ground I was hearing from. I just, I thought well leave the door open if there is some mini version of combining pieces of this. Why not at least start the ball rolling rather than waiting until next year. Other committee discussion. Cameron, you are hearing the flavor of the discussion about removing reference to the second year of the biennium. And I guess I would feel comfortable with the rest of that resolved clause as long as it does not reference the second year of the biennium committee, can I get a thumbs up how you're feeling about removing reference to the second year of the biennium. Okay. Looks like we are ready to go make that change as well. And so I think at this point what I'd like to do is get a last glance at the final draft of the resolution. So we can sit here and have a committee discussion for a moment or if you've already figured out how to, how to do all of those changes while we're, while we're having committee discussion we can just take a peek at a clean copy of the resolution. Is it all right if I share my screen. Yes. Oh, sorry Andrew you'll have to co host me. There you go. Thank you. Can you see my screen. Yes we can thank you. So moving back to page two I have striking best out of best mechanism and inserting appropriate instead. So moving back down to page three. I, and this actually I would, some clarification would be helpful here. I can strike this end of the phrase here so that it would read that the House of Representatives invites the administration to bring forward draft legislation for the reorganization of public safety services, and it could end there. Alternatively, the committee could say something more like that can be fully considered at a future date or at a future time. So but what I have for now is to strike. Excellent. All right, any questions from committee members on those two changes. All right, thank you, Amron I think you can stop screen share and we can go back to committee discussion. So I should have done this research ahead of time but I believe that when this resolution gets gets voted out of a committee that it goes on notice, just as it would if it were a bill. We sit on notice tomorrow and be up for action on Thursday. And I'm wondering if we can confirm the timing of that. What we need to do is call in the House clerk to ask questions. I will reach out to the House clerk and see what the timing is. Thank you for for doing a little messaging in the background while we have a committee discussion on this. John Gannon. Thank you. You know, you know, I think, and we're in put together a good draft resolution that captures the comments that we heard today. I think commissioner Sherling testify what he thought the cost impact would be. I'm not sure we would hear any differently from him. I do share house concerns that that is not the only cost. You know, typically if this was a bill, we would have a fiscal note that really doesn't happen here. So I mean, I don't know. I think we all know our concerns about the independence of the Vermont criminal justice council and the 911 911 board and I don't think that's going to. There's nothing we're going to hear that's going to change at least personally my concerns about the independence of those two organizations. So I'm not sure. A lot of further additional testimony is necessary. Before we move forward with this resolution. Thanks John. Any other committee discussion. Rob Leclerc. There. I did it before I spoke. Thank you madam chair. I will agree that there's a lot more questions than answers. But this is an executive order. And I think that everybody recognizes that there's plenty of work to be done. And all the answers aren't there right now. But what I'm going to hear is is that because this is a fairly large executive order that we're short changing it a bit, and again, not allowing those, all those that need to weigh in the opportunity to weigh in. Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. And as you learn more about this, it does prompt some more questions that answers are required to. But I recognize that there are a lot of questions out there but because it is an executive order. Those things are going to have to be flushed out as it moves forward. Thank you. Thanks Rob. Mike McCarthy. Thanks madam chair. I agree with representative Leclerc that this is a really big executive order and that's a large part of the reason why after the testimony that we heard I feel really strongly that there isn't much more I could hear that would make me think that the process of an executive order is the right process. We've gotten a little bit muddled at times between the conversation about the process and the merits of establishing this agency. Certain here and there's not much more we're going to hear that would change our thoughts on whether or not the executive order is the right process versus us taking up legislation and getting it right. If we are going to move in that direction so I feel pretty ready to move this forward. Thanks Mike, other committee discussion. All right. So I guess I would give us a moment to see if we have gotten word back from the House clerk about the timing of when a resolution comes out of committee relative to when it is considered and acted on on the floor. We were present in the building of course we could take a five minute break and members could go take a walk to the water fountain while one of us ran down to the clerk's office to ask the question so we are in this strange environment where we get to sit and stare at each other's zoom square as well we wait for the question to be answered. Yeah, while we're waiting for that answer I did want to say that Commissioner Manoli from the Department of Motor Vehicles had reviewed you know some of our questions and answers from the member or staff at DMV who had discussed their concerns about bringing the DMV Motor Vehicle Enforcement Division in under the agency proposed and you know had reassured me about my questions around the collection of the apportioned fuel revenues so I wanted to thank her for that and you know I still have some concerns about Department of Motor Vehicles and those that staff being brought in and if they would still be able to carry out the mission and if we do take this up in the future those are things I'd love to delve in on a little bit more but it was great to know that the commissioner felt strongly and it's been one of the things I've missed about not being in the transportation committee anymore is not seeing Commissioner Manoli. Well it's interesting to appreciate how much more open our process has the potential to be because anyone who wants to know what the flavor of committee conversation was about a topic can go back and watch the committee discussion. And another question that had occurred to me today that that I hadn't yet asked in committee was what about the revenue from tickets if we have DMV enforcement out there doing inspections and occasionally issuing a ticket or a citation for for some violation you know is that revenue is that revenue solely being used for the for the cost of the enforcement unit or are there other DMV activities that that would have to be funded differently. And if that ticket revenue were to move over into an agency of public safety so just another one of the fiscal considerations that we might want to understand going forward. And then I see that Amron's back. Go ahead Sam. Thank you. I was just questioning what representative will Claire was saying about giving them time or notice so this is what we are doing. Maybe that falls in with Amron's question. But if there's a way to give them notice before we post this. Thank you. I believe that. Yeah, I believe that this has been up on our agenda and that there are folks who are watching along behind the scenes it's a little hard for us in this remote meeting environment because we don't know who's on YouTube watching us but even the communications that I see in my inbox. After we end these zoom meetings, I can tell that people are generally tuning in when we're talking about issues in their area of concern. Amron were you able to get an answer for us from the house clerk about whether a resolution spends a day on notice. The process if the committee were to vote this out today would be that it would be read tomorrow and be placed on the calendar for action on Thursday so it could be voted on on Thursday and it would be a one day vote. Okay. All right. So I guess it would be my recommendation at this point, or my preference and you are welcome to to overthrow the chair if you want to. But it would be my preference that we move this out to the floor of the house to be read tomorrow and that will give us the 24 hours for for anyone with compelling new information to get that out there. And so it will be up for action on the floor on Thursday. Committee discussion on that. Rob LaClaire. Thank you madam chair. I just want to raise the point again that I find this a little unusual in that in the past whenever we had an item or an issue that we were looking to take action on that it was specified or at least indicated on the agenda. That we were looking to take action on that particular item that day, where I don't believe any reference was made about taking a formal vote on this resolution at all on the agenda. I hear your point. Other committee discussion. Mike murwiki. I couldn't resist. I couldn't resist. Madam chair, I appreciate that concern, but I feel like the clock is ticking. We have a time constraint here. And I think the more we wait the closer we're going to get to the clock ticking more loudly. And I would, I would hope we can be expeditious with this and move this out as soon as possible. Other committee discussion. Is that a motion Mike. So moved. Second. So, Rob, I do appreciate your, your calling for ample time for, for folks to weigh in if they have, if they have information that they believe would change the outcome. You know, I think the difference in my mind between a resolution declining the executive order and inviting a future legislative process is a little different than if we were voting out a bill that that we actually would enact into law. We are, we are starting a new process here by, by the, by the rejection of the executive order and the invitation to, to bring legislation to us. Go ahead Rob. I have to agree with you madam chair that I think it is a rather significant piece and that's why I am concerned that it's unfortunately being rushed a little bit and those that have. Right. And the responsibility to weigh in aren't being allowed to, but I respect the chairs prerogative. Well, in all honesty, if I thought there was something that that was missing in our understanding of the executive order that might change my mind or the minds of folks who have, have expressed different concerns about this method of reorganization. I certainly want to put the brakes on it and, and hold off to wait for that. But it's hard for me to imagine what could be presented that would that would make me say that that doing this reorganization by executive order is the preferable way. So, thank you for bringing that up mark Higley. We know if the Senate is already voted on this, because I believe they voting no as well. So have they voted on this already. I'm not aware of what's going on in the Senate today. Okay, again, I guess my point there is what if we hold off and do what representative of Claire is considering we're talking right. Sorry, you broke up there. What was the last part of that sentence. Well, just if we do what representative of Claire is considering it would be just one day of delay. Am I correct so that it would then be on the floor on Friday if we were to postpone a vote and warn it for tomorrow's meeting would just be one day. Later than done today correct. That that would be my count of the legislative days as well. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I don't really think that one day at this point is is going to make a difference, especially when we had until April I believe to actually act or not on the resolution. Any other committee discussion. Thank you, Anthony. As a seconder, I certainly would rather have a solid vote than a partisan split vote. But again, I defer to the chair on this. It just seems to me I would hate for this to turn into something that it's not. Which is to say divisive. But I just need some guidance. Thanks.  I think for my ultimate. Yes or no on this the answer is going to be yes. I'm supportive of the resolution. The resolution to not allow the executive order to go forward so Peter if that's what you're looking for that's where I stand but again one day in the scheme of things. I'm agreeing with, you know, Rob. I don't see I don't see the imposition. Thank you. Committee discussion. I don't see any harm, I guess, in voting this on on our committee agenda tomorrow so let's go ahead and put this on for. And we can let the office of professional regulation know that we are going to have a 10 minute committee discussion and and consideration of the executive order resolution at 9am tomorrow. Any other committee discussion about that. Thank you, Madam chair. I know technically we have a motion on the floor and hopefully you all don't mind withdrawing that motion so that we can take a deep breath and be respectful of the wishes of the members of the committee who would like to let this happen. The seconders in agreement if the mover will. I'm moved. Unmoved. Okay, so I will ask Andrea to make it make it explicit that we are going to do mark up and vote on the draft resolution that we have already considered and marked up and we will do that tomorrow morning at nine. Any other questions, comments or committee discussion on this.