Hello everybody and welcome to another Interview with the artist and today I am very excited about our guests somebody who I have Appreciated from afar for quite a long time and been an admirer of their work And now finally get a chance to sit down and talk to in detail Tommy how you doing brother? I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm quite excited for this. So this is all new for me Somebody else is a being on somebody else's channel and on this card as well, which you know, I'm a I'm old school So I'm almost still using Landlines and telephones VHS is you don't have to explain I am also an old person this this world has forced me to to to learn things. I didn't want to learn, but here we are Well, maybe I can learn a few things off you then as well. There you go I'm happy to share Good stuff, but he's bringing me in to the fold. I suppose So we're gonna talk about Tommy's journey We're gonna look at some of his pieces all that kind of fun stuff today, but I want to shout out right at the beginning One of the reasons the occasion for having this conversation other than I've wanted to interview Tommy for a long time what sort of predicated all of this was that Tommy you are working with Dave Taylor for the next series of the art of and You have a whole book coming out on Kickstarter right now already funded with With so everybody who is familiar with Dave Taylor and the art of Series one was funded a while back. That was books one two and three. They were amazing. I have them. They're absolute Just quality printings like Dave does an amazing job Books four through six are now on Kickstarter. That is live. You can find the link down below and Tommy You've got one of those three books. I Can't believe it. I can't believe it, you know when Dave first asked me.  I want to talk about What we always talk about here Which is I want to talk about this weird hobby We all decided to engage in like this is a as I've said every time This is a really bizarre thing we all chose to do, right? We're how often our miniature painters the butt of jokes in movies or something like that, right? And Yet we all decided knowing that that what we wanted to do with our lives was paint tiny little Plastic or resin or metal people and we we are happy with it and fulfilled by it So so what got you into it like what made you decide? I want to start paying mentors What what got you into the the whole this whole hobby? Oh Oh It depends how far back you want to go so all the way as As any kid as any any any young kid is In the last Hundred and whatever years Building and making things Is a given we all want to build and make things Then I think about how young me and all my brothers were when we started playing with Lego Building and making Then you build that you end up doing airfix Somewhere along the line or something in a frigging kinder egg a toy out of a machine You know like that you ship for 10p or something you want build it you want to make it You know that there's the progression. I'm sure we all go through that to some degree. You know a Different ages maybe but to some degree. We all want to build and make things and then In that little mix, I remember me one of my cousins He was into it much older than I was this cousin and he was into warmer way back in the 80s And he didn't want to do it anymore and he ended up giving me a lot of his stuff You know, which is for those that remember and those that know I don't know what you remember what you know But there's the first box set of ruggler's armored orcs.  I don't know but I remember when I was in Plymouth There was a games workshop store there actually bought some squat ancestors Nice Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah with the new neck and under stuff. Yeah, you're expecting that crazy Everything old is new again. Hey, give them enough time. We circle back to all the good ideas. That's what I say Well, that's that makes the premise of almost everything. I try and paint really, you know, but we'll come at that a little bit. I'm sure sure Um So, yeah, later on, you know, as a young kid I'm more playing with these Acquisitions, you know, these these warmer things don't really understand what it is what for blah, blah, blah I tried painting them with me and home bro painters. Yeah, again, I'm sure I'll do from back in those times And One day we're as in Manchester city centre. We walk past the Brown Street games workshop And that must have been Maybe 1988 89 87 somewhere in there. Sure And I noticed these things. I was like that's an entire store dedicated to this business And one of the things that really caught me attention as I was looking through the through the cabinet window Through the window into the cabinet Whereas there was an elder phantom time sure it was paint metallic red It had gold trim and it was on this base and this this thing was shooting it wherever it was shooting on on the ground Don't know. I can't remember if it was arched or whether it was space Marines But I do remember the name of the artist and I don't believe I've ever met the artist So if for some odd reason there's an ancient hobbyist watching this now from Manchester and his name is Ash. I Thank you Nice Whoever ashes So, you know, this thing was on this this wonderful warm wooden plinth, you know, it was only thick It kind of looked like a pitch frame, but it wasn't it was a trophy base. Sure, you know But I had that nice little little kind of routed edge Yeah, and that just caught me attention I mean one way to drag me along, but I was like I just want to look she ended up taking me in and you know the games workshop service that they had in the 80s happened and Then I was hooked I suppose because I kept going back in right, you know and kept buying things or rather things for me, you know and Wow, this I've never gone into this in any detail with anybody actually So like it's all like different snapshots and I'm trying to sift and sort them now sure sure into what's what But it's all massively nostalgic So when you go back and you keep buying things here's my question were you then Painting them like right now. Did you have like? Proper paints yet because there was there was some acrylic paints around the Citadel like beginner paint set would have existed at this point In time like did you pick that up like or were you still fighting through was the hobby not part of it yet? How did how did you get on then as far as that goes? Hi, so can I remember necessarily my first paint sets or whether I've got them individually I can remember I can remember one event. I sent you a picture of a care source room just before we went live it I Think that's my earliest memory of deliberately buying Citadel paints I did already have Citadel paints. I did I did I did already I Was already equipped By this point because actually one of the first forays So this is the other picture of just sent you of the dwarf and the alch the plastic dwarf the plastic elf got them up now Do you really my first real attempts at right? I no longer a child At this and playing with them. You know, they're not they're not toys You know now this thing that I'm realizing it's a craft is kind of something to Be part of a journey with it's something to aim at and aim with even You know wargaming puns not intending sure in that And that kit was brought for me by for my birthday by my older brother, you know, so That really started to inform The races I liked I like good races generally I like elves very I'm a bit of a tree climber myself You know our rock climbers you can see on her me Instagram sure So I believe And I remember I use this example to a lot of me students actually the Deliberacy and the I'm gonna call it the obviousness Want for a better term because I know it's not obvious to everybody. I'm gonna call it the obviousness of painting Was was there for me like sure immediately now regardless of the standard of results. I was getting as a kid There was there was certain principles out like I see that and I see that for what is and and the example I use a lot is painting eyes. So if you look at the elf model, you'll see the eyes are painted I don't know if any of the viewers can see. Yeah They can say it's up on the other it's up on my other side of my screen So yes, they're all looking at it as we're talking the elf is up Now I hope I hope because when I send this here is a little bit rushed But I hope you can see the eyes on the elf Painted, you know, there's white and there's a pupil now now when I was younger that That to me was obvious that I needed a small brush with a small amount of paint that flowed nicely And that brush needed a good point on it and I needed to go in slowly and With a small amount of pressure Do you know what I mean? I do now Anything outside of that just it didn't end in my brain Now this is I'm only saying this in hindsight and that as a kid. It was just oh, that's what you do That's bang Why was it was a bang it was? Oh sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Um Well, yeah, like I think the simplicity and that obviousness Because it was there at a young age for whatever reason, you know That's that to really build the foundation in because I really paid attention to everything as a kid I mean everything I paid attention You know outside of the hobby inside of the hobby It's fascinating because I think a lot of what you said there isn't intuitive to everybody who picks up the the paintbrusher He picks up the hobby right the idea of varying the density of your paint so to affect how it flows the idea of You know exactly How sharp your tip needs to be or how big your brush needs to be or something like that some of that's more intuitive than others But not everybody always I think really cottons to all of that right away And so it's fascinating that that felt that those did those lessons all felt pretty intuitive to you Yeah, no when I'm with me students though or if on a random live stream on me Instagram or what have you Yeah, I think you're actually the first person I've had this discussion with where I actually don't take you or maybe your viewers through Through that experience in a question and in a question in way I've just said is the things bang bang bang normally I would go What kind of brush would you choose what kind of and I don't meet anybody regardless a level that doesn't give me the right answers in every one of them instances Now if I can ask you every one of those questions in all those orders and not have anybody get the wrong answer That tells me something about potential for every single person who wants to paint. Oh, that tells you You know because and that that's very much The kind of experience doesn't take all my students through because It's the ability to become aware of things That enables you to make more choices towards creating better results I like that and well, thank you and It's the ability to ask questions and explore whether it be with your eyes or your brain That enable you to become aware of those things Right You know, which is why The the most important skill you should be developing is is what am I aware of and what choices can I make with it? Am I aware of the things that stop me from getting towards my goals and can I choose to avoid them? Am I aware of the things that aid me from going towards my goals and can I enhance them? Do you know what I mean? I do absolutely. I love this. This is fantastic So and I I think we're going to absolutely dig into that in a big way as as we go on because the way The number of people I had when I said we were doing the show Who responded you're an amazing teacher and that you change the way they paint and stuff like that. It was really high Okay, a lot of people are paying to me or reached out or stuff like that. Yeah, absolutely and I know How well known you are for being a teacher and that you You really are I think recognized as someone who views the philosophical underpinnings the the meta hobby differently than a lot of other people do and I definitely want to dig into that for sure Please please do please do All right, so But before we dig into that part, I want to know how you got to that point So you had these initial sort of obvious revelations, right? Now, where's the arc? Between where you were, right? So I've got the elf and the dwarf up. We're painting and then this chaos guy Right, so we've got this stuff Yep, and then we go to the chaos guy Where does the arc take you like? What's the growth trajectory? When do you start realizing? Hey I've got too many unknown unknowns. I need to start asking questions so I can get to some known unknowns Right, because you didn't this is one of the biggest problems, especially when it comes to newest painters. There's newer painters They're so they're not even aware of how much they don't know They don't often know what questions to ask, right? So how did you then follow that growth to to learn those questions? So I was really lucky one day. I'm gonna I'm gonna deal with the with the chaos warrior That sent you because because this is really pivotal to to the that idea of paying attention Yeah, yeah, because I believe in this penny drop moments. They're the moments where you go. Oh, yeah It's that obvious and I never saw it And these are those points on that curve.  I'm now better because yeah, you make the choices. It's instantaneous the moment you realize you can do it You step up So choices make make awareness and choice the thing. So let me Go back to the chaos warrior So back in the day when games workshop used to run every metal road shows I was lucky enough to to watch tim prow paint It influenced me in many ways and I'd love to talk to him but But sure he avoids me online. I don't know But he's extra old school when I think about it. I'm sure he's day He's done with all this but but tim prowess is to be a an influence on me in multiple occasions on this journey You know two of which face to face um as a kid so When I was a younger kid, I wasn't really as outgoing as and this is something I've learned You know free working for game workshop and working online um, but tim prowess sat there with Nigel stillman At this desk Nigel stillman was was painting this like insects and chaos warrior thing and Tim was painting that chaos warrior not that actual one in the picture But that care warrior with that mom and I yeah Yeah, and and I got a chair and I sat there in front of him barely said a word to him I admired his mega-deaf t-shirt I am a massive mega-deaf fan by the way Again that might have been influence on me. I loved his mega-deaf t-shirt was amazing. It was from rusting peace album um And I I got to look at his miniatures because they were there. I had the desk.  I'm just gonna watch him um, I got to see the the dark angels marine bike the All these old heavy metal paint jobs for those that that don't know I recommend going back to white dwarves from 150 backwards And there's some of tim prowess work by the way actually Literally all night now I said tim prowess Is a thing for me tim prowess thing for me just to iterate that again Tim prowess article Again, it's important to think repeat it again and again and again um And he's a name you don't hear a lot actually You don't hear tim prowess name in our painting circles as far as history goes and not to my knowledge You know, no, I don't think I've ever had anyone mention them. No in all in all the interviews Yeah as an influence Struggle to find pictures on mine, you know, so anyway, so I got to look at Every metal standard work right there in front of me, but I also got to watch tim prowess paint that care sorcerer from start to finish And I watched it intently Now I've already said I'm an attentive guy I was an attentive kid And I paid attention sure he worked attention You know I paid attention I paid attention to the big stuff and the small stuff And I watched it from start to finish I chatted to him for a bit. I looked at his models in detail the end of that day I bought the same model same paints the in brush Went on from memory painted that chaos worry you see in front of you now When you look at that in detail you start to see certain things You see dynamic highlighting on the robes You see a blend from dark to a blue on the sword You see deliberate Targeting for all the bone structure and blah blah blah You see deliberate use of Different consistencies in the highlighting on the robes You see what I mean now it's it's kind of crude But I was what maybe 11 12 13. Oh sure absolutely you know and and and Watching him perform And and and do actions that I wasn't doing so I was intimate enough with myself and now I painted to go all right So I paint like this, but I see him doing this right so now there's a choice right You see what I mean? Absolutely. So one so clear with how not how wrong you're getting it So once you're really familiar with how you are doing things anything outside of that becomes very obvious But if you're not familiar with how you are doing things then Anything outside of that's not going to be obvious because you're just not familiar with it. See what I mean I do You know salt light for example You know, let's take this stereotypical example of an artist and I've got me schmock on and a beret and a palette in my hand And I'm going like this Now when I see a lot of people painting the painting in that kind of way But that's not how you get deliberate results by having a painterly kind of Do you see what I mean? Yep So you've got to be like all of a sudden you've got to get grip and go hang on a minute If I do these three kind of movements and I'm really trying to get a nice smooth base coat Really you're going to get a base coat that goes Instead of clean clean clean See what I mean the mindset changes Yep My actions change the way I say the word clean changes everything changes You know, and that's about what you think you're trying to do So anyway, blah blah blah blah blah I went home. I painted that model. I was like That's a result And I started to then apply that to Um a number of other models. I nearly sent you more pictures actually again one of an ultra marine Again, I've just showed you a bunch of Timprow inspired ultramarines Why I became later on I've had that year or a couple of years After I went to a games day Timprow was at games day These were yet to be released and he was painting me Nice. So I got to sit again. I got to sit again and watch him paint You know and that was that was for the release of so we could pin this down actually I think might have been games day 92 Because it was the release of second edition space marine Okay I went on the space marine. Hey, yeah, my mom bought me space marine The same year basically fourth edition fantasy battles, uh, launched Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which I also got as well I got so much to thank my mom for honestly She didn't want to take me in but you know, there you go Ha ha ha ha A lifetime of hobby leader Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely Mom's also won me. I she critics, you know, she She hit me one day. I was like so proud of so much went always missing something. I was like explained A good statement on why it's good to have some neutral third-party feedback on your on your work for sure Oh, yeah, and thick skin There's some Yeah So anyway, I I'm developing these skills as time goes by and I know again I don't realize this is like therapy for me. This I've never actually got all this out in one go step by step So the my favorite game I started to play was space marine. Okay tim prouds influenced me twice I love the elder because I saw that initial thing painted by ash I've got an eldar army for epic and I've started painting it.  Yes Yeah, I right knows two centimeters long centering and a half wide. It's these things are tiny for those. I don't know So I'm painting this this epic eldar army in the bel tan color scheme again, this is tim proud inspired now that I think back about it because The war walkery painted was built on it had the Thorn designed up of the leg. Yep Where all that comes from in fact in fact tim prouds responsible for more than people think in this hobby Right, and I'll elaborate on that later on Right like a real big substantial It's the fine work show with this of what we do in the painting hobby tim prouds responsible for in my opinion um But anyway, we'll get to that later on So I'm painting each of these tanks blended from a light line green up to white with a Thorn pattern vine Thorn pattern on And I'll be going down to the games night And I remember this the first time I went I'm there this eye at the gaming table You know Because I taught myself how to play You know, I'd sit there on my own and I have one model and I have one model. I play a game model to model Just to learn how to do it Right, how do we do this because it's confusing when you try and play a game? I go out Let's just reduce it down to to as simple as I can do it again example of being attentive as a kid of deliberate One model versus one model. Let's do it. Right. Okay. I can do that with an anvil of 10 dice and 10 models easy peasy You know So I'm there. I'm just going for a game.  I don't know where that is in I'm a kid. I'm quite interested about it But the guy stood next to me on my side and the table looks down at me and I look up at him and he went You painted them. You've not painted them and I was like I didn't really know what to say because I'm just quite a kid at the time um, but I was like I was quite surprised because I mean, I I'm not doing it for compliments. I'm not doing it For awards. I'm not doing it. I'm just doing it because that's how that's how I just think it's done Right, you know, I mean I'm doing it because I enjoy it and because that's how I think it's done Not should be done. Do you know what I mean? Oh, it should be done like that. No, that's just how I think it is done That's just how that's how it is is it's innocent and it's love-based I just want to do it for the sake of doing it Yeah, which is the biggest I think fuel for anyone It's the best fuel Because there's you can't fail Right 100 agree doing it for trophies and likes You're doing it for the wrong reason which I've also done in my in my time, by the way And it's not a good reason. It's it's quite harmful You know, unless you're quite industrious Business minded then that's that's something else. But but just know that That the love for the sake of it and this hobby just has to come first otherwise. You just build in some of the superficial Anyway, so Yes, and then I started to realize that I'm gonna make this something a little bit different because people have complimented me Or or setting me aside You know in the hobby then all right this guy regardless of whether he's playing games or the sort of Of who or what he is I say this guy this kid Um, yeah, I'm I'm singled out has been Point point look Say whether it's compliments are you know, so I'm I'm very used though I still don't like it with who's good at painting break his fingers and all that kind of Rasmus has a year in painting circles all the time like I do I really have a lot of duties just to help you so But it's it's well-meaning.  They add regional competitions back then and I made um arc chariot and games workshop had these uh Like the warmer giant used to come in a metal not a metal box. Sorry big plastic box with like a slaughter back Yep Yeah, you go slide out the marauder giant, which I need to get all the one I've loved one of them I'd like to do a modern paint job on one of them He's a super cool client It's top and it it's really good I mean a lot of stuff that came out of the marauder studio Like those those couple of people really did it's a pretty timeless work overall Um, I I really think part of it is just because they were kind of left to their own devices largely from all the stories interviews I've seen where they just kind of Were just there Making the stuff that they thought was cool They could take time and be passionate about it and and just produce things that I think really stood this test of time The dwarfs they're still the best dwarfs ever sculpted by anyone You know, don't matter how good new dwarfs are They're better character Like we really are though, aren't they? It's not just like I don't think it's nostalgic because I've looked at them recently And I still look and I go, do you know what? Yeah, I want to paint that now And I don't think or I'd have to I'd have to compensate I have to sharpen some things with paint because the the mold is softer I look at and I go, it's just a good model You know I'm the wrong person asked because unfortunately I have a lifelong hatred of all things to urban so Uh, that's okay. I'm I'm not a good I'll back you on the elvish play. That's fine. I just hate dwarfs The dark elves were fantastic as well Do you remember the beast masters and like the little mastiff hounds they have with them fantastic The paint job on them really made an impression on me and all because I really think they got the texture of like that It's like a mottled mottled red chestnut dog Coat I don't know. It's not a pill. Is it but the you're not smooth dog finish You know, they really nailed the colors on it. Yeah, it was it was it was hot back in the day. Yeah, the dark elves Uh gray seer in the comments just said the original marauder storm vermin are actually pretty decent Even if not as dynamic as the newer plastic I like I had a whole army of the original marauder storm vermin. They were much more like muscular bulky They seem much more imposing than the than the currents. Yeah, you really build out the the like size of them really well Yeah, yeah Wow, so I ended up entering the uh regional golden demons to get a commended entry um With this arc chariot And that left me feeling really good but sure By the way quick side note, you know, they brought back commended entries now That's a thing that actually just returned to the newest competition like to they started doing it a little bit in 2019 But now they actually brought it back as an official like thing a level Below the the demons Yeah, I think Dave mentioned something Something about I recently could see entered didn't he? Yeah, um, I don't really pay attention too much anymore I'm just happy to see it return because it was it was I think it's something a lot of people forgot existed um, and it's nice because it is it is something that that What you just said it made me feel good It made me, you know, like there was a motivation to it There was a a sense of like accomplishment to it. There was a sense of recognition to it. However, you want to frame it, right? Um, I think it's really nice Sorry, mate, I interrupted you. No, no, you're good. I agree completely. It says you're going in the right direction. Yes completely agree Which is what we want really in it, you know, like I think Anyone into this hobby for the sake of painting whether you're a gamer or not You know, whether you're a gamer or just a salt painter The the idea of getting better at painting is objective, but you know, you might just want to get quicker Regardless of getting better. Well, that's still better if that's Getting your standards. Do you know what I mean? That's getting you where you want to go to the painted army on the table You know, but I don't know anybody that actively goes.  Right. I'd like this to look bad. Please. Thank you Yeah, yeah, no one wants that right no one you know I can't remember why I was saying this now. I got all sidetracked. No, you're okay We were we were going through the commended entry with the chariot Oh, yeah, so yeah, it tells you you're going in the right direction and everyone wants better So like the commended entry thing Uh, it's got value No matter who you are, I think there's value in that thing in in letting somebody know like they're going in the right direction that Like for example If somebody's finishing models at any standard Then they go in in the right direction Yeah, like like genuinely I completely agree one of the one of the adages I've always tried to impress upon people Is that one this is a journey with not it without an endpoint and like that is say the hobby and two that any painted model is better than an unpainted model And that when you're getting things painted You're going to be learning like the important part about that is just to to just simply look at your failings Look at what you did think about what you did think about what you want to do the same more different on the next one Right. Um, and and because every model you paint is an opportunity to learn something And that's where that's the most important thing about what you're doing Yeah, even if that is learning that It's okay to be where you are standard wise. Absolutely You know Because I meet a lot of people who don't want to paint because they think they're not good enough And that's kind of a violence to self that will stop you getting better right You know, it's counter productive to to what is you trying to do But it's it's also it also kind of discounts The nature of this hobby, which is you meant you meant to love it for the sake of loving it That was what got me better if we remember that bit and I made that point deliberately because I knew we'd come to this part in the discussion you know That I was happy no matter how good I was I strove to get better, but that's because I wanted to So I loved looking at images of the every matter work in white dwarf The best way of me looking at those images in the flesh is for me to do it myself.  So you see all the models there They're there because I love looking at my own work Because that excites that that child in me You know, I'm I'm still that little kid You know, so when I go to a warmer world You will find me looking at every metal paint jobs Just to learn and I admire And that's it And I don't know if you in fact you've been in the country recently, aren't you? You've been to The museums are tiring experience man. I will come out of there After hours, I'll be wiped out like I Know it's my friend Damian peddler. He was the last to witness this happen um Yeah, I just I just can barely stand, you know, but then again Me health has been up and down over the years, you know, but yeah, I just it wipes you out man It wipes me out. I literally will just concentrate on on the tiniest parts of a model But so long just because it fascinates me how it all fits together, right? And the answer is regardless of our skillful. It's simple Regardless of how difficult it's simple. Yeah, and that's that's a bit, you know, I love it And even though I even though this time the thing with me experienced now Um, even that I've kind of know I didn't know the answers if you will Uh, I'd never stop looking I never stopped looking in case I find the new thing Whatever that might be You know, yeah, absolutely How the sense of curiosity is just there I mean when I was there I made like we were we we went through the exhibition all and um You know, one of the my favorite parts of all of it. There's some people who it was their first time through that I've been through the through that exhibition many times in the past and And there are there are areas and pieces and and displays There are some of my favorites, but but one of the things that I always spend more time I mean I've I've sat there and looked at them for everybody still go back and spend more time every time Is all the Mike McVeigh Like dioramas and stuff that are in there that they have now I love them because they now have them like a lot of them are in special like punch out shadow boxes Which is great. They're really well displayed really well lit And I mean I just stare at them because I just think they're they're so creative and so amazing And it's just so worth digging into all the the nuance the detail of the things. I just I love them to no end Yeah, I think What Mike McVeigh did in those dioramas, I don't think has even been come close to I don't think anyone has come close to the kind of quality produced You know and like you you think about the lizard men versus The conquistador kind of style style people You think about just the quality of dry brushing On this on the sandstone Right, you know, I mean just the quality of dry brushing on that is so consistent and he's so well done It should be evidence to everybody here that dry brushing is not a beginner technique a low standard technique And not a quick and easy technique And it can be done with finesse Oh, absolutely I mean Victoria lamb was the one that was always that always, you know, like took dry brushing just Like that showed what it was actually capable of right that there was a skill there Just like anything else Yeah, and she's pioneering her own right just because of osl, you know, yeah, yeah You you peel back the you peel back the words osl You find Victoria lamb under there without a shadow of a doubt 100% Just one of the first people to really realize what we're doing is painting light Right and just trying to capture light and she was one of the first people to really really explore that miniatures in a big way Um in a prolific way to emulate light to emulate light Right without a doubt yet to create the illusion You know, yeah without a doubt without a doubt and the simplicity the simplicity With which he was able to do that Is mind boggling and and I'm going to use that word for out tonight a lot is is simplicity Although it's like a tightrope walk. It doesn't make it easy you know and and and Working on your simplicity will just up your standard. It'll up your economy. It'll up your speed It'll up everything. I find a lot of painters You know, they're all looking for the next expert techniques the next hardest thing And it's not it's all at the beginning man. It's all in your ability to do it as simple and as obvious as possible How well can you do it simple and obvious? So I want to drill in on the epiphany thought because I I agree with you very much that there are these moments of And I want to I so I just brought up a piece that you Had sent me and you said, you know, this was a big moment. And so I think this will continue on this story.  I don't I don't know his name or I'm sorry Um, but there we go. There we go. That's what it was. See I I have heard that before I knew that I that was the thing I knew right on. Yes. That's I was just about to say that No, okay So you mentioned when we were talking before that this was a big epiphany piece for you And and you know was relevant to this discussion. So so take us through this piece and and why this was a moment of revelation for you why so so there's a there's a number of of reasons why that model is important and Excuse me if I'm a little bit, um apprehensive in this but some of it some of it's a bit showy-offy Um, and I don't wish to to be that guy, but there's kind of no way of Of going about it. So in fact, I'm talking about so I'll deal with that first. I think That painting that model is responsible for me being really known in this hobby Okay, if I hadn't appointed that model, I think I'd be a nobody though. I don't think I'm a somebody Do you know what I mean? I understand what you mean. Yeah, and I don't Yeah, yeah, absolutely But but I know that when I painted that model and when I posted it on cool many or not People took notice of me. I got a lot of attention Pretty quick And it was not long after that model that I went freelance. Okay, you know, I left a left games workshop Now the reason is is there weren't many people doing realistic non-metal metallics at the time, right? And It was a handful of people That that were close and that were all or doing it and I became one of the handful of people That was just a that that was able to go here we go. This now looks like gold It doesn't look like a yellowy simulation You know, and what I mean by that is though they are fantastic paint jobs Everything that was Loaded has been amazing non-metal metallics at that time from around Early 2000s to about 2010 was all the confrontation and rack and miniatures if you're familiar with those Oh, yeah, that's very cool. So now for anybody that isn't familiar with those I suggest you go and get familiar with those and if you can get hold of all the old cry havoc magazines and the rack and catalogs you will Get yourself a wealth of painting knowledge examples of amazingly painted miniatures in just an array of races styles Everything it is just it's mind-boggling out how good the rack and stuff is Yeah, but it was all painted in this non-metal metallic way, which is kind of where that that non-NMM Non-metal metallic phrase comes from that little period. That's what it kind of all came down to But yeah, none of it really really looked like shiny polished gold, right? It all looked like illustrated stylized artistic Illustrated I think is the best term illustrated gold and not that I wasn't effective You know, it's it fit into it to what they do, but it just didn't have that real edge You know, I do make it look real now. Like I said, you know, there's this handful of people doing it at that time But generally it would be done on weapons. It'd be done on your Trim it'll be done As salt and pepper be done as garnish You know, so when the blood angels were re-released 2009 2008 2009 2000 Yeah, I think I'm getting real dates wrong, but Yeah, too round about that time late 2010s, you know, so you had Joe Tomzowski and Darren Lavin also working on No, well, they've been doing it earlier because the studio works a couple of years Before any releasing, but you know, so Joe Tomzowski did the captain taiko in non metal metallics And Darren did the sanguinary the sanguino In in non metal, you know, and so those those guys appeared at that time and We got Samples earlier games were shot back in those days So I was working Before the release as well on my one now that model actually I was I was Learning as I painted it So the bottom half is painted with a different mindset and a different approach as the top half You can't I don't think you can really see in those pictures though And but the bottom of his spot is the soul of his raised foot is actually my favorite bit You know Because that's that's one of my earlier methods of painting not met So I was developing it and learning it and then as I was working up the entire model playing with different ideas I had a penny drop moment, which was Uh, yeah, I can just paint the reflections of the room on as I see You know, so when you look at the back of the back You see one big major bloom highlight at the top A small one at the bottom one left one on the right in like a diamond shape Yeah, that's actually that's that's the ceiling in the old games workshop, Manchester store That's literally me sat under the lights and that's the ceiling reflected on it. So I just copied it straight on You know, so simple We're not easy So so it was pivotal for me professionally it was pivotal for me in in my in my journey of learning and developing our nets um and Yeah, if I hadn't if I hadn't painted that And in in fact if the manager of the store at the time hadn't let me paint that You know, he's like 40 hours work You know, sure. I think that that's pretty quick. I think for The model of that standard. Oh, absolutely. It is. Yeah. It's amazing for 40 hours. Actually You know, well That's the beauty of doing things simply. I didn't realize this at the time You know, but let me come back to Tim Prout Sure Tim Prout That's where non-mets start Tim Prout and So the first captain tyco model I can't remember what what number why 12 it was. Um But yeah, the first captain tyco way back In the early 90s that was done in non-mets I remember the painting guide it it it stuck in my memory snake bite lever was still the core even back then You know Tim Prout was the first but even then non-mets was In fact pull this out. I think this is before so I believe that non-mets and metallics can be mixed you can have non-mets on a model and metallics on a model Right, which I 100% agree with I've always said that. Yep Okay, I'm looking now at the model. I'm about to use as an example Of early non-mets and it's there But anyway, let's let's pull you over This guy Yeah You see and you'll see on some of my ultramarine stuff, you know this Turkish Terminatus there, you know, that's not met Right, you know, when's this from this white dwarf 146? You know people think It's uh 1992 Right, you know now when you look at it in this context here That's this quite an advanced paint job for the time as well And I still believe like at the at the time Tim Prout I still want the the best of the every metal team technically, you know, that's a let's just a sterling paint job Yeah, you know um When it's clearly borrowing from it because it's on it's on a 2d quote unquote Surface right so it's the the image on the banner And so it felt like the natural jump and it's funny because when you held the page up the opposing side page This is the funny part to me about it So like literally on the other on the facing page of the image you just showed. Yeah Yeah, like wonder your hand right now is the warhammer logo Okay, like it's just off on the corner. Yeah. Yeah there and like the warhammer logo For coventry warhammer day is done in that illustrative non-met style on a 2d surface, right? Yeah, exactly.  Absolutely. That's the thing, you know It this idea in non-mets is not an early 2000s think You know, it's been around for for a long long time, you know, and I suppose it was in me innately when I think about it Because I didn't really I didn't know until I started leaving games workshop and branching out into um, the world of cool mini or not, which was the the thing Back then You know, if you weren't on cool mini or not, then you weren't going anywhere Pretty much, you know, cool mini. I love those days. That was fantastic. It was so much to learn There was so much to learn about miniatures Outside of games workshop inside of games workshop. It was it was just amazing Cool mini or not days Um, I don't have a go there anymore Unfortunately, I say unfortunately, it's not the same place. Is it no? I mean, that's just it the the world is now. I suppose it's probably instagram But okay, I want to swap over here And I want to talk a little about then where we are the continued journey because we started talking about nmm So I flipped over to some of the model pictures you sent along to me And this feels like the exact right time to transition into talking about your knight in cantor Who's up on the screen right now? So the storm cast knight in cantor guy that you did here in nmm I remember seeing this guy and I remember the The predicate for this Or at least around this time You were talking a lot About non-metallic and your rules for it and how you think of it and deconstruct it and stuff like that So what was the story behind this knight in cantor behind? It's this guy, right? behind this yeah and It's just a top model and what it's a painting It's as simple as that, you know, and there's there's actually There's a precursor to it which is severing Okay, ever in Yeah, so it's nearly both off and again, let's I don't know how well this is gonna come up on on camera, but I'm gonna do me best for you All good There we go. Let's pull me a little lamp down There we go. So you've got severing and whoever this fella is We'll call him aged severing. There you go severing Severing ascended and something like that so I am lucky enough to Be asked to look after Certain games workshop stores when games workshop need help And when I do that I generally take a project with me Um, and if I don't have a project with me to paint while I go and look after a store I'll buy one Sure, and then or If there's a current release You know For example, it was warmer underworlds or shades by the other side that I did severing Um, it's just current release then I'll sit in store and I'll paint that and you know that it It triggers conversations with customers because I'm sat there painting something relevant So anyway, I actually painted Severing first and I really wanted to I really wanted to get an old silver effect on it I don't know if you haven't seen silver cutlery. That's not polished It starts to get a lot of noise on it. You know a lot of really fine It's kind of like got a rosy feel to it. It doesn't look as silver as you might think It looks there's a little like warm yellowness to To all silver cutlery and like there was something in me just kind of wanted to capture that now I don't use black and white Well, I do on the very fine highlights and on real deep shades tiny bits of black and white But but there's there's no black and white.  No, not some old silver. Sorry storm vermin fur Got it. So it's like you said it's like brown storm vermin fur and Blue horror Yep, and yeah, I create this soft this soft What I considered satisfactory result Anyway, I sent a message to to to Darren laverman. I just said asked him for a bit of feedback What do you think what can I do? Um, and he said push all the shadows darker Now what he was aiming at was really accentuating the shine of things right Yeah, so I was like, right. Okay. Yeah now while while that That change and that advice didn't satisfy my my objectives as far as creating this soft silver look What he did was it informed me then a how to push contrast further right now I'll the certain models out there in the world that are really good studies for non-mets. So if you want to develop your non-mets is There's some really good models out there that just have great shapes for for studying How to place the right colors in the right places in the right proportions Yeah, this model is one of them. It's now discontinued. So Enjoy trying to find it. But this model is certainly one of them It's filled with all sorts of of amazing opportunities to develop your non-mets um Yeah, hard right angles, you know geometric shapes like on the staff, you know, you've got organic shapes like his Like his calves and we can't really see it on camera, but you can go and have a look at Yeah, he's up on the tree right now So good. Good. Yeah, and you've got the lion head on his shoulder Um, you've got studies in skins. Good is studies in flowy cloths studies in crystal Vials, you know, I mean, there's there's everything on there. Yeah. Yeah, there's just You know a lot of these stormcast characters like this are actually excellent for this sort of thing Just because of the surfaces that are on them. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, but but him in particular because there's so much on him including skin including leather through his gloves Yep It won't including flowy rub. He's not a one-trick pony. There's facial hair space for tattoos To say I mean, there's everything on him. There's this space for osl the space for Um gemstones is space for Freehand, which I don't do this space for texture this space for everything There's there's not a thing that can be done on that model. Yep. Yeah. Orc skin. There you go You can't do orc skin on it Wait, try to do that. I suppose you're Dead orc on the base. There you go. Don and dusted now. You've got it all in there Exactly. So so it's just all there on that model. So I'm looking after another games workshop store. So um There is there's there's my new projects and let's let's put this advice into into In the practice and let's start developing it, you know Cameron keeps falling over and I don't know why I do know why I think he's broken. But there you go. So yeah What was what was my objective then by by painting this new model? Well, it was can I make it look as convincingly polished as possible? You know so If I was if I was to critique non-mets that I put in front of me, which which is something I have to do because I've been a judge Um at salute for a number of years and I get to see non-mets of of whatever variety and I'd say most people the the they don't do the blooms of light appropriately enough They always do what I say regardless of how technically good painters are they always do what I say what I call They paint themselves out of space Yeah, sure Yeah, so all them final highlights while it's impressive and technically difficult to make them as small as possible You don't want them small Well, not in every case. Do you want them small like to take the shine of my bald?  I understand So, um, I need someone to prop this thing up. Uh, here we go.  You're good Hey Look at that just so many uses for a golden demon there. There you go He might be too tall There we go. Let's get let's get oh, I could sit on his forearms. Oh brilliant There's a there's a picture moment if ever I've seen it So the phone is now rested on your arms. Yeah on this.  I'll learn you brilliant Um So, yeah, that that that model was was not just an inspiring model to me, but it it satisfied a lot of criteria That um I wanted to develop myself with You know, so there's good advice for people paint some of that inspires you that'll give you an objective to develop a new skill set Absolutely Yeah, you know, do you know again? I talked to a lot of students. They'll go like oh, what can I paint that will help me develop x and the I can't answer Well, I can't answer but it doesn't mean they'll love it right And it's rare I get a student come back with an example of bam And yeah, I loved it Rarely it rarely does that happen. In fact, I'm not sure if it's ever really happened In fact, no, I've got one student Damian recently Oh Damian should I say he is painting a lot of retro orcs And I know he's loving it because he keeps picking them up and Not that I don't recommend retro orcs, but I just haven't recommended retro orcs to him and he's loving it And these skills are coming on really quick you know, um In fact, I've got a few students that we are working on some things with Well, these things are moving slowly right now So okay, I can't we can't say that these projects are finished Well, Damian's definitely going through projects pretty quick Because he's using stuff he loves In alignment with an objective Yeah, that's just it if you're painting what you actually love not only will you find it more enjoyable of a process And you'll be willing to go farther with it because you love the thing and want to see it turn out well Whatever his image is in your mind But also there's going to come a point where potentially your brain wants to stop working stop learning stop trying And when you're painting something you're truly interested in you truly love a model that really is compelling to you You'll push through that right because you love what you're doing with the thing If you're doing it as a task you won't Right, you just don't push through Yeah, and and you what you'll end up doing is you'll end up doing that you'll end up Assigning or linking or intermeshing or weaving in that attitude of apathy in with your painting and you really don't want to do that Don't you don't want to create the habit and association of apathy In your hobby, right? Don't don't do it. Choose something you love. Don't let me choose Don't ask me to choose choose the one you love. I like I could go is a bunch of amazing studies On non-mex I could say that I could give you a list But if the one that inspires you is this one and it's not on my list and I go Probably you shouldn't go on the list You choose that one man like bollocks to what I say Like true the one that sets you on fire From there because that's the right answer Yeah, it doesn't matter who I am or what I think That's the one that excites you that's the one you do and you develop it You develop your skills If you emulate my skills for example in non-mex Do on the one you love not the one I You know and I can I could give you a bunch of real solid These are dead serfs. There's not just my opinion that these are really good models But still choose the one that that excites you absolutely All right, more important I want to jump to your next model you sent along because I think that I think we're going to get an interesting connective tissue here But I'll let you tell the story behind this model So the next model that I flipped over to here is your space wolf So the old school space wolf with a double banner the raised chain sword, right and his bolt pistol now Okay As as long time viewers of this channel will know I have a deep and unending hatred for space wolves And that's that's only because I started playing Uh warhammer 40k in third edition and uh got consistently my teeth kicked down my throat by space wolves So when you lose to them all the time Eight attacks does right now. I'll be those old rule.  We're just getting wrecked constantly So it it scarred me for life But this is undoubtedly a very fun very beautiful model So so take us through this guy. What what what's the story behind? The first the first thoughts when you when you started saying was he's no mere space wolf That's that's ragnar black mane. That's the original ragnar black man. Not this dark-haired imposter Yeah, that that people have created because Normal schools don't understand he's not called black man because he's got black hair It's called black man because what he did is it's more of a title than his surname, you know He slew the black man wolf with his bands and but yeah ragnar Um, he was an inspirational character to me as a kid as a teenager so I mean a lot of people don't know but There is hair You know and at one point it was long You know It was long and it was blonde And I had an affinity again. There's a mega death link in it. Dave mustain. I absolutely love Dave mustain as a kid long blonde there You know not in a weird way, but in a robot way. Yeah, of course long blonde there, you know I just it is a space Viking with long blonde there. You just don't get to see that as like As a teenager and as a male Long blonde haired men are not your stereotypical role model Sure, and I was a kid with long blonde there, you know, I wanted to play guitar And I wanted to do space wolfy type things. I was Even if it was quiet, I was a little bit of a nut at the same time You know, I wanted to do I wasn't easy yet Well, if you're gonna put a bike under me and say go down that ill as fast as you can I'm gonna do it that jump as fast as you can.   There you go and Yeah, well, I mean the original model by Jess Goodwin and the stories by bill king You know combined just with the rest of the the space wolf range in the field Man, they just they just filled with action, aren't they? Space wolves just filled with action.  He's got two bad banners. It's not got one. It's got two right You see what I mean and everything about him was just different, you know, and I said earlier on Yeah, I always felt even in painting circles um set aside right now to me stands aside but for Every space marine he set aside, you know, and he's also got his hair color retcon which sets him side again Do you know what I mean? How many people got a hair color? retcon right right You know, I got my retcon You know, so, um, yeah, right now was was massively important, you know It Another thing I tried to do in school when I was in our was I I tried to copy his banners. I tried to paint them on paper Not not but not not but as a larger study Yep, you know, it was it was um it became of an art thing for me like Just everything about him I won't say I was obsessed, you know, but I was fascinated, you know, it was a cool model You know just go through and do the amazing sculpts. I think it was mine. They did an amazing paint job um A lot of the ideas about a blend Paint back in the day come from me understanding of On me reading of old sit down miniatures painting guides. I don't if you remember the red pamphlet version. Yeah. Yeah That's what's one of the earliest most vague descriptions of how to blend acrylic paint on a model ever But, you know, that's what we had to work with back then You know, which I think is why a lot of old school painters like myself david sopa blah blah blah um I think there's an innate understanding about how to paint Um to a top end in us because We had to figure it out ourselves You know because we understand mistakes better than anyone else everyone else is trying Everyone else is trying to watch youtube videos to avoid making mistakes You're going to avoid not learning how to fix them Yeah, failure is the most powerful teaching tool you're going to have ever well Like like I mean, is it most powerful or is it just as powerful? Do you know what I mean? Is it depends what you want to do because because In one context making a mistake is something you don't want But in another context that same action and that same result if you chose it, it's not like a mistake Sure So how powerful is it? Do you know what I mean? How powerful is it? How useful is it? Well, it all depends on where you Allow it to happen or Choose for it to happen Yeah, did you did you decide to do it or did it happen to you? Right? Yeah But I also I use the word allowed deliberately Because some things some mistakes you can allow to happen and they create a happy accident Then you then it stays because you allow it Sure. No, that's fair. And there's its use again Some things you allow because you don't know better or because you can't be asked And they you deem mistakes and it's still it could be the same action same result You know and an understanding start to understand this on a deeper level, but but it's Yeah, the value is always in is in the result really, you know proofs in the pudding if you will Yeah, but but if you don't make more mistakes and understand A which ones create value, but also the mechanic to get there whether it's value or not You know that that's that's what I think a lot of old school pre youtube painters They they have that we have that I'm gonna see I'm gonna actually I'm gonna wear it with pride We have that because we know I'm not afraid to make mistakes Absolutely not afraid. I don't care you know because I know I prevent it if I don't know I prevent it and I eliminate it if I don't know eliminate it and I'll incorporate it I like that. Where's where's the risk? Where's the risk? Do you know what I mean? So if I'm trying to try to paint a model clean No battle damage. No noise. No, that's not that the other I'm going to work on prevention first If I do make a mistake, which is inevitable There's a tiny group of people on this planet that don't make mistakes in painting right Tight and they are amazing painters like so rare Yeah, and I pretty much say a lot of them are on the heavy metal team That's out that when you take that percentage That's that's not even half a percent of the world of painters. It's so tiny And if you are a spy to that go for it, but you've got to do it without pressure Pressure yourself because you'll just drive yourself freaking insane Yeah I don't know because I've been there You know because that's another skill set as well by the way is is is the our mindset Um to develop is one of minimal mistakes But it's always shouldn't become a pressure shouldn't be something to beat yourself up over Right, no, it's part of the journey and it'll just start to integrate in there But again, if you make that your only goal then you miss out on how it will eliminate mistakes right There which if I want a complete paint a clean paint job and I wasn't able to prevent and I need to work on the elimination Yeah, whether that be remove it or paint it out Right Yeah, I mean so the mistake stays there. It just gets covered all Yeah, so whichever way you are tubes, you know And then as you get into that clean start where you start to meet people online that are like I like it green and real and you know, not cheery or a little bit.  You're trying to paint it very wrong And only remove what doesn't serve you Sure, I like that.   But that one looks good. Cool. We'll keep that one, right Yeah Yeah, and have you remove or you just keep moving it around till some it looks cool Yeah, and that's this more painterly approach Textures allowed if it looks cool It's not a green card Which some people think it is just to splat anything anywhere any allow you want because that Like not not everything communicates the message you want it to right, which is why, you know, you get out. It's like like john blanche there This is not a line out of place regardless of how much school or ink splattered. It's there because he wants it there Yeah It's not there because he put it there necessarily deliberately. He allowed it to be there because it contributed to the to the noise he's creating in your head Which is really what expressive painting is about it's about creating noise upstairs. Yep Yeah, so I'm going to pull right back now to rag now. Okay I Challenge anyone to have a silent mind when looking at that right now model I like that. I like the way you're phrasing that I really do I don't know that I a lot of people think in those exact terms, but I really enjoy it And I think you're exactly right Because of what's happening there because of the action the composition Because of the nature of the piece the colors on display the way that things are are Integrated together There's just a lot going on for you to take in in a relatively small space And it's compelling right? Um, so yeah, I agree. I think that's a really good way to phrase that Thank you Well, I mean these are all the things like I've I've learned through teaching so many people I've taught hundreds and maybe even thousands of people now and I took note I took so in the first few students I ever I ever taught I took notes for every lesson I took notes because I started to see a funny pattern Between because I taught painters at a top end I either before they won demons or after they won demons people come at me for lessons Which was very humbling at first like I was like, oh, fuck you've come here to see me, but Painters at that level know why are you there? So I've got to trust that And I've learned to trust that a lot more recently Painters at a bottom end beginners shit painters intermediate painters whatever I've taught them as well And I what I started to realize was I'm gonna I'm teaching both these sets of people All sets of people the same thing Right again and again. I'm not teaching these guys beginner stuff low standard stuff easy stuff blah blah blah I'm teaching them exactly the same stuff. I'm teaching these More advanced painters and I'm not teaching them advanced stuff technical stuff hard stuff It's just the stuff It's just painting Right. Yeah, there's not a divide You know, you could choose to see a divide if you want But there isn't a divide Yeah, maybe this one in resolution And and time and attention But these aren't painting techniques, right? Right. I mean Yeah, so anyway Ragnar I mean, I've got myself lost there um Recap me again No, you're okay. We were talking about you you mentioned that with Ragnar There's you don't have a silent mind when you look at because there's a lot of visual information. It's being All right, so so Ragnar is not my most technically Painty piece The blends aren't smooth You know, especially if you look on your shim pads, let's let's let's have a deep dive The blends aren't smooth who cares Because I'm creating noise in your mind The only person to ever hold me On the areas of that model that I'm not painted, which I bet nobody's seen The only person Was a judge at golden demon who gave me a golden demon for it Even though it's got areas that I'm not painted at all And it still won me a golden demon in the staff category against other every metal Nice that counts for something Now, I don't know really what what what they think of it But I know the heavy metal painter in question came back and gave me personal advice He sought me out to give me advice, which is amazing by the way nice For a judge to care enough about the people that entered their competition To come back and go. I want to give you feedback. That means something to me And I'm sure I'm not the only one that they did that to us. I'm not I'm not single myself Demon has always been pretty great about the judges giving feedback That's that's actually one of the big like truly one of the things that's always stood it apart So that that to me was amazing and the fact that he spotted And those things and was able to tell me in a great way that that meant a lot to me Now the the other reason it meant a lot is because that model wasn't painted for competition It was painted purely for me old passion The space wolves for Ragnar for converting for creating a model that That that doesn't look like a conversion You know, we only know it's a conversion because Well, the model doesn't exist as a product It's it's it's not an obvious conversion. You know, and that's that's a bit of a thing of mine Um, but but I just want to steer it back to the the nice thing again So I I I create I make your mind move how I want it to make So move how I want it to move Yeah, with with that model Yeah, now here's the other thing is I don't It's hard to say so I want your mind to move in a very particular way when I show you a piece Sure, but I don't choose what way Yeah, so for example, you know Ragnar's very angry at somebody, but I don't tell you who So what that does is You put your favorite Person to be angry at there I don't choose who should be in front of Ragnar So whoever Ragnar's fighting is the person you prefer Is the person you've chosen If I put say, uh chaos berserker there I've immediately cheapened it. I've narrowed the the the spectrum of which somebody would Tell a story. Sure because I'm telling it to you. I'm saying no, no, no Don't use your imagination in this space. I'm saying calm berserker But there isn't I leave the space open for you that Ragnar's fighting whoever you want But you also know how he feels when you look at whoever it is you've now imagined him fighting This is so I tell a story, but I don't tell you what story I'll let you tell you what story and I've created opportunities And I do that and I try and do that with every brush stroke now by the way Which is sort of that I spent a weekend with a student Um last weekend and yeah Half a day on that idea if you will nice, you know Well, because you know You're with this idea about expressive painting Yep Well, you can marry the two technical and expressive, but I think I do pretty well You know, so like there's no real story on the base of me knighting cantor But there's a lot going on on that model. Sure. Do you know what I mean? Yeah I Flipped over here to which I think might connect to this. I flipped over to your lord of plagues Blights, I don't remember which one he is your nergal lord that you sent me And what's that He's an unusual model for me like that So well, this is I well That's what I wanted to talk about this one because you mentioned you you as as we talked as you talked into this Creating a narrative and the story and things like that This model stood out to me because it is it feels different than what you often paint And but yet there's very much still narrative in the paint here that's happening between the setting you've chosen to put the sky in The colors you've chosen to use the way you've chosen to weather it and work with them Uh the additional details that you've added those kinds of things So is that is that kind of where you were going with this guy? He's also very textured very like there's a Lot more there's a lot of story being told through the brush work here in this model Do you know I'd like to hear what What is going through your head when you look at him like what are those stories like in your assumption? Yeah, sure. I mean, I'm happy to share with you what I see Yeah, go I'm happy to share with you what I see so Obviously, he's in a cold setting Right, so we've got the snow on the ground and the little norglings playing in the snow and stuff like that with the one with the sensor And what's fascinating to me about him Is you've actually kept the weathering the rust that kind of thing relatively The oxidation relatively minimal like it's there But it's not overwhelming and I have to believe that's because of the nature of the environment that he finds himself in Like he's not in some moist wet environment He's in a dry cold environment So the weapons are still rusted because it's nergal, but they're not made of rust There's still plenty of cold steel on display and at the same time The green of his skin even though it's green is still a very cold green So it fits in with the overall environment and we've picked out a lot of texture on him almost like bumps almost like Like goosebumps to to an effect again selling the sort of environmental study But the wounds those open hot wounds are still sort of shown in that red pink And and there So those are the things that jump out to me immediately How do I how is that read to you? Any any of that what you were intending? well, well What's interesting is almost like you gave a You gave a technical analysis to a degree sure, which was because uh This model was a study to agree in using pointillism sure But also I painted it because I was pissed off No, so I I can't remember where I got the idea from somebody had said something to me about something or other That maybe I wasn't as flexible a painter as Other painters, you know very I have a very particular style If if tommy would just to paint out tommy wants to paint I have a very particular style Which is very comic booky, which I love You know and while I can chop and change me styles and apply it to different things Um, that's that's that's my default You know Now I don't really like painting evil I don't like chaos. I don't like You know, I'm not I'm not really into it But when it comes to that model, there's there's something about it. He's quite understated that model So it appealed to me when it appealed to me as a as a good opportunity to explore What I can apply my own style to okay, that's outside of my own wheelhouse So that starts to inform then why The verdigree is understated Yeah, you know while the colors are still quite the the colors are obvious what They're also really strong in their own right, you know nothing overwhelms anything else Everything is still within my uh in my ballpark as much as I tried to step it out Do you see what I mean? So I like I like clean metals You know, but I knew I had to verdigrise them I didn't I didn't really want to to take them So So rough and so ready that they started to look like they need weathering powders No, I didn't really want to take it out of me wheelhouse But I needed to bring something into me wheelhouse that was that was outside of The normal subjects You know what I mean, I do, you know, which a nergal guy is I don't normally do a lot of blood effects. I don't normally do a lot of Ghiblity effects. I don't normally do You know a lot of things like that and if I do it it's It's just because I felt like it at the time So like for example on my instagram, I posted a picture recently of severing And the back of me land raider Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. I actually saw this picture. Yep You know, and I asked the question What's my style because now a lot of people don't get this The same techniques Are used on both models There's different results and what people assume in the technique Right. It's not There's a brushstroke like this and there's a brushstroke like that I use both them brushstrokes on both models to get both of them different results I use different colors, but that doesn't change the technique, right? I use the brushstrokes in different places, but that doesn't change the technique But I produce different results And I really hope I really hope to get that through To to some people who are listening. In fact, if I could get it through to everybody, I really would do But I've got two brushstrokes one that goes like that and one that goes like that And that's all I did to get both results within a within a ballpark. This time's a Chopping change. Yeah, but in a nutshell in a simpler way, let's go put it I use two different types of brushstroke. I load the brush the same Yeah, I load it the same kind of paint. I set the consistency the same These varying degrees of consistency, but I use those same varying degrees across those same different brushstrokes and across those same two models The technical as in the the mechanic of it It's not changed colors changed where I put the colors changed and I did that to achieve two different results all right, so this time to like to play with um Me abilities and like that I I chose that and space wolf land Raider as an example like My space wolf army is clean So I just painted and then one day I was like I want some all messy and spying this down the other And I just decided to to to see if I could paint this guy in a comic book style but using zero of those Well, not zero necessarily, but Add any more complexity to create more texture and communicate different ideas and I'd normally communicate essentially So there you go. I can't remember why I put him on snow, you know I don't know why you know Like I mean, so there's some blood splatter going up the stairs behind him, you know from the from the heads on on top Maybe I chose snow because it shows up blood You know, there's actually I painted the reflection of the snow on the Undercarriage of the nirgling going upstairs. I don't know if it shows in the picture But I quite enjoyed doing that as well But I wouldn't have thought of that until I went to paint under his ass cheeks and go No, I do not put the snow reflected under there. I wouldn't have been somewhat. I planned sure, you know and another reason is is like This space and I'm only speculating on my thoughts now and why I did this And but this space here is is really empty and um, I think somebody might have asked me how to do um icicles at one point and maybe I went like I will fill that space there with icicles just so I can show this person I do icicles and snow came from that because icicles is really I think I do as well, but They're done with blister pack by the way and lots of gloss varnish nice, so Cut some blister pack into icicle shaped You know, obviously it's just a two-dimensional sheet then isn't it sure then just fill out the dimensions with gloss varnish You know the same way you'd like dip a candle to make a candle Oh So yeah, I hope that answers your question a little bit. It does very much I I think this guy's a great model of paint. I think he's a wonderful Character study I think he's another one of those sort of standout models that you can do a lot of really great stuff with You know, Darren when he was doing his channel did this model Right as as his masterclass pick and I just think it's it's a again It's none of those models where you've got a lot going on and a lot of interesting things to work with Wood leather metals flesh disease. Yeah, uh, you know armor plates bone Uh rotten flesh blood Copper and other metals rust vertigree like on and on and on and on and on right like there's just a million things You can explore with this one model. He's a tremendous canvas so Yeah, he is and that's that's exactly what I'm trying to do as well. Yeah, you're right So, you know, you mentioned the leather. I I've decided to do it like I did some cross hatching on it Right, you know to insinuate a rough fabric, you know on his loincloth back and front Um, yeah, I really tried to insinuate varicose veins I Yeah, sawness. I really wanted people to think saw when they look at his belly Oh, yeah And yeah, you're right. It is it's just something to explore wood grain There's another one. Yep. You know, I've got bank david sopa for giving me the the the little baubles that Bubble out of his mouth. Yeah the the goop out of his mouth. Yeah And then I have to thank Dave Neewald Um, because while we're at my house, he was showing me this is from a long time ago There's some 10 years if not maybe more. Um, yeah, we used hair We dangled hair. Yeah from a model and Red ink gloss varnish and just yeah You know, so Yeah, there's there's a lot of things on it that Pulled inspiration from you know again david sopa actually Though to clarify, you know david sopa's works not, um It's not pointless This was my assumption around david sopa style on the areas I chose to do it was a pointless approach Um and dips over actually scribbles, which is beautiful You know Because scribbling furs a lack of control and freedom, but I don't think there's a more controlled painter out there that guy Yeah And if you ever get to see his work in the flesh, you'll see how in control it is You know, but that's that's that thing I would talk about earlier on actually about the marriage of technical and painterly Right Can you bring them together? What can you start to to create them and that that's that's a case of mastering both both sides of the scale you know, so speaking of working out like in marrying these two things together And mastering us out. I flipped to the bust Um, so our our pirate orc bust here who we could see in the background Uh of you there in the early part, so What is it about this model this guy that drew you in that made you want to do the bust That made you want to do this bust in particular Lucky man Do you know what I mean? There's so like The one touch I've got In fact, let me rehearse the reverse We as painters stand on the shoulder of of giants those giants are called sculptors And rarely do sculptors get the praise they deserve All right, my paint job On that model Would be nothing if that model wasn't sculpted so well Yeah, it's truly exceptional sculpt. Yes. All right. It is an exceptional sculpt. All right And It's from the bend miniatures for those that want to know I'm not sure if you can get it anymore, but if if I could say to him do another run I would do and if anybody knows him Um, please say that I pull that request in But I'm gonna give him a quick dust off now. So I'll make sure we're on the same page when we uh When we have a talk about him now again I wanted to paint him for a couple of reasons one I very rarely do busts To scaling up 30 28 and 30 mil painting to bust scale is not easy Great, or rather rather It's not something I'm familiar with because if you start on that scale bust and scale down I'm sure they would say it's not easy in the other way. So And it's not something I'm familiar with and I wanted to become familiar with it essentially And and and there's so much character In in this model that I just I just wanted to know how I could enhance it Which is why I brought up the idea earlier on that we stand on the shoulders of giants Which are the sculptors as a painter Who is always wishing to progress and explore his skill set in whichever Variety, you know knowing I've got a solid Default if you will sure as a painting wishes to explore and I think This should be acknowledged Hobby-wide Hmm. I don't know.  Everybody chooses to do an excellent paint job It's my job as a painter To at the very least not make that sculpt shitter It's my job to enhance Yeah, at least keep it just as good or enhance from where the sculptor left off And the reason I was being a little bit careful about not offending anybody is that like In a way that looks like it's taking away from people who can't paint very well and they really don't intend But that's a bit of a case But I aspire to at least not make a sculpt look worse than it is sure You know, I mean, but at the end of the day, there's people who love painting at all levels and It's all valid I hope I've communicated that in the right way because that I properly care about that by the way No, absolutely you have yes So that that model is so good It's so good Like where could I possibly make an improvement on it? Now I didn't know until I painted it But I also didn't know I had lessons to learn when I painted it as well And this is really where me and color theory start to We'll say communicate. Okay all right And really this is where I This is where I really started Explore color theory Um Because I didn't know I had to Don't really care for it. I don't I don't like though. I do use it I have a very different way of looking at it than most people Every person in fact, maybe um I've rubbed some people the wrong way on on the whole internet with reviews on that But whatever but this model is a study in that in my way of looking at color theory and I think It works like because A lot of people don't understand is that I know is how much the colorblind You know, okay, so when I meet with a colorblind I don't care Like, you know, these people who go, I couldn't do that. I'm colorblind. Oh, I'm colorblind. This So There's ways around it if you willing to explore You know and I've taught a few people You know one of which runs a army painting studio at games workshop now You know, so nice the world is your lobster So if you want to know game touch You know, but but so I'm colorblind and Anyway, regardless of that, um, this guy's a study in contrast Contrast is more important than color theory. Why because contrast is the reason color theory exists It's not the other way around color theory is just that theory All right for example Let's just take a color wheel for those. I don't know where it goes red or in yellow green blue purple red Yeah in a circle Which by the way, you won't find out in nature. That's something we made Right, sure all right now while Nature might move in this spiral kind of way When this color comes right back out of red the red won't be the same red on a rainbow Yeah, you'll see it in the rainbow and light shone for a prism But it might go back through a different red, but it's called infrared It's a different red and on and on to infinity both directions. Yeah, it doesn't come back down to the same red I hope that makes sense to everybody It does. All right, so we made the color wheel So that means we put red opposite green Now if red opposite green is what's known as a complimentary color example one And you kind of telling me that I should like it That combination in whatever way I should like it's complimentary it should work Hmm I'm not right with that I don't have to like nothing somebody says I have to like So the word complimentary doesn't sit right with me It's it's not complimentary so Because I don't have to like it. You don't have to like it nobody has to like it and nobody has to agree with anything I have to say so Complementary is a matter of opinion So what's the next bit? Well, it's contrasting color. Yeah, it's contrasting color. All right. Okay, so red contrast green. Why? Why? Why does red contrast green? Because we Yeah, I'll I'll offer the answer like I'll I'll offer all of our simple answer But then then because their wavelengths are in opposite places What's that? Go on. Sorry. Say say again. Sorry. That's that waffly Because in the light spectrum their wavelengths are opposites. So like red Invisible light spectrum of red a perfectly red surface reflects zero green light Right now, of course, that's not actually reality We don't live in a world where where we have real reds and real greens. Everything reflects a bit of everything But if you could make some platonic form of red, it would reflect zero green out of it So, okay, there you go. There's how's how's that? So so that's very interesting because you're actually dealing with two different ideas You're dealing with the idea of projected light from a light source and reflected light from a physical thing Sure, you know two of which can be very different things that can be communicated In different ways like for example, you mix all the frequencies of light together from a projected source You get white light You take a color wheel and you spin it so all the physical colors mix Um that you get white again, but you do that in paint on a palette you get black right Yeah, so there's an idea of contrast straight away energetic photons of light create white physical pigments of You know a physical matter right black I think it's a beautiful poetic thing you know, but As simple as you made that that's actually still quite scientific key There's a convolution to it. Sure. It's still not as simple as maybe as it could well should be You know, and we we have this idea this color wheel again, which we made. Oh, why? I mean, I see that. All right, there's this Three primary colors and three secondary colors and if you put them in a circle they will go in that order Yeah, that's a beautiful piece of The nature of physics or the physics of nature, whichever way you want We still doesn't tell us why why why why he's red contrast to green. We know why black contrasts white I hope sure I mean, I really hope for those that don't know one's light one's dark One's as light as possible. One's as dark as possible. Right. That's the perfect example of contrast You know, but you cannot apply that to red and green You can't apply that to blue and yellow or cyan and yellow. Uh, no, sorry. Sorry cyan and orange You can't apply that to you know, so you start that's the question then Why what is it? What is this idea of color theory? What's it built on? It breaks down to this primary and secondary One is few one is singular The other is many the other is plural and it comes down maths Does that make sense? It does green is not a primary color It is it's a mix of colors So your contrast is one of purity and one of mixture sure one of single one of plural So when you start to use that to inform all your color choices, you don't need to be at a C color You just need to know the difference. Gotcha. I like it And that's as simple as it gets I think It's one and two It's one and two that's pretty easy It's pretty easy It is pretty easy so But it's not all there is in contrast though, is it? I'm giving you all my secrets here, but I freaking love it So color is just one ballpark of contrast.  Well I hope everyone else has gone well But I can't see what's going on in the world of discard um No, what's it gonna say The different types of contrast behind just the color. Oh, right. Yeah. So so just before I move on into contrast You've got color theory Just the theory Like complimentary it's just an opinion Is it useful? Is it not? all right now Contrast is a fact it's a fact There's no argument It's a fact some things contrast more than others but contrast is a fact sure You put a white dot in the middle of a black screen and contrast more than if you put a black dot in the middle of a black screen It's like these are these are fairly simple concepts Yeah, now what you just said there is beautiful This is what you just said there is beautiful and if we let's let's play with that Let's play with that Um as a prime example of how to use contrast fact To create perception If I held up that black piece of paper with that white dot on it and I said what do you see you will probably say a white dot More than you would say a black piece of paper Right No, it's absolutely true even though 99 of the piece of paper that you're looking at is a black piece of paper Okay Now What did I say earlier on about making you think what I want you to think right?  Yep. Yeah Turn that black dot into black dots and put a line under it.  Yeah, and the point is is that's contrast It's shown there to you and it can be used to create experiences for people That orc bust Is a study in contrast I'm trying to lead you somewhere I'm trying to lead you somewhere Where can you not help but look At that orc Oh, absolutely.  Yeah Yeah, where is he? Where are you looking on that orc? At the where am I looking I'm looking at so like that my eyes have a natural movement on him Which is I look right here at his face then up to his eyes and then follow his eyes of wherever they go You can't not help but involve his eyes. Yeah Like you look at that orc. He's looking at you Assuming you've got the picture where I've sent where he's looking Yep, that's exactly the one I got It looks like he's looking away So whichever picture you've got I can't remember which one you send you but it's he's I send me both So I've had both up the one I have up right now is the one where he's looking at us Yeah, so this is a side picture Now when you've got that picture when he's looking at you, how does it make you feel? Yeah, sure. He looks like he's yeah, I mean it's he looks like he's giving you the side eye and not a great way Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but that that's that's the thing in it. You've you've assigned an emotion to it. Sure Yeah, and I I want you to feel like You don't really want to be here right now Right, so to bring things right back to what we're saying How can I make that sculpt better? There was only one thing missing off that sculpt and that was intention Okay, the eye gives intention. Yeah the way I've painted the eye gives intention So let me give you an example of that if I look at you now like this What's my intention?  Oh, I can't help but smile So I see I create I've created eyes in your head just by change now you you look at any how to paint eye tutorial They're always dead forward No, it reminds me of there's an old I think it was like a I don't know if it was like a simpsons joke or something but they talked about how the it was some show I remember the joke they talked about how you can make even a cute dog seem evil By having his eyes narrow and then go And like look to the sides Repeatedly, and it just changes the entire read on even a cute dog Right, and that was the joke. It was like that's it. That's what you got It just changes the whole read of the situation how humans interpret it now that's actually a Some I learned when the Bretonians first came out Okay, you know you got um the robin odd. What was he called Bertrand LeBrigand? Yeah, um the Bretonians Yeah, I started painting the eyes and painting the eyes.  Oh, you've got to paint this and you've got to do the pupil like that And you've got to do the whites like this and it's just like man just black and white Doesn't matter what's real on what's not it's matters about what's effective What creates stirs something in people You know So believe it or not the uh lord in cancer for example there there the eyes I like like of my own the least because I've done them too forward and I actually painted pupil more than I did paint uh I painted in pupil as opposed to paint in whites I say pupil iris as well, but you know, I know what you mean Yeah, I did the insides more than I did the outside so it makes him look a little bit more Stary than I like I actually didn't go into any more detail in his eyes on that So his eyes are pretty flat And but I was happy and that if I'm happy with a paint job where it's at And I'm happy to finish and that paint job is finished any lessons will be applied to the next and forward we go Very nice, you know All right, I want to bring us to I want to bring us to the end here But I want to but I want to I want to give you I want to like this has been so much you've shared And I just want to remind everybody like I think I hope what's on display here Is that and then what everybody gets is that and I that you really do stand apart as someone who thinks differently about this hobby and about the way you teach and the way you communicate this information and And just the way you resolve this stuff And I want to remind everybody the link for the Kickstarter still active but funded is down below and Tommy's got a whole book in there Um, so what I want to do here at the end Is just say what else do you want to share with everybody before we before we call it a night here? um Keep it simple Because that's that's what everything's built on Contrast it's one or two to plow a lot many You know as an example, but what we haven't really spoken about is that book You know We haven't I haven't spoke about what's in it and believe it or not. I intend this book to be Very practical and technical in how to start to achieve Painting in these simple ways That's that's the point of this book. So I've been running courses For 10 years maybe more Yeah, um for classes of people and um Individual one-on-one students You know, I've taught a lot of people of every different level And I said earlier on that I started to realize I was teaching these people the same things in the same way the same Again, and you just can't escape it Can't escape it You know, I turned it into a course which was massively successful It almost I kept in fact, I don't think it's ever not sold out when I've ran it You know, um, I did a different version It's not bad. I did do a different version of it one time Which I wasn't happy with Kind of got sidetracked a little bit at the beginning by one of the attendees there So it was it up some of me time Um, and it was new and I wasn't well rehearsed at it So I I didn't do that course again, but that one didn't sell out You know, but as far as I can remember, I don't think I've I've ran the fundamentals course that didn't sell out I call it fundamentals because these are the things you can't escape. There are also the things the internet isn't teaching you You know, so I read an article in a magazine or a little article seven essential things to learn And I read these things and I was like, man, that's just not true You can't do any of that You can't do any of the things without knowing how to Set a consistency load the brush and apply the brush with the right mindset and finishing more models right So this book Is if I was to Disappear off this planet, which one day I'll do That information doesn't disappear with me So I don't wish this book to be Tommy Sewell showing off how good I am. I have no desire for that No desire at all. I don't care Because it's not important to me Like I paint as good as I paint for me Right That's why I get me more going back to what we talked about at the very beginning. Yeah I do it for me Yeah, you know, I've done me time as a professional Whatever that means, you know, I've been very human in that experience as well I've had me own ups and downs emotionally physically professionally Blah blah blah sometimes all intermixed and other people have had similar experiences along that road with me um and In that time that love got hurt And that information as far as painting goes got refined And those two things that love and that information I really wish to be in the book more than anything else because if I if I One time gone that info's gone You know, whether I decided to change industries or whether I friggin car kit, which is gonna happen at some point in the future You know, and I'd rather leave that information there Because I know it goes against the grain The way a lot of people see um Painting but that's why I think it's important it goes out and also it frees up a lot my own brain space Sure, because it sits me out all the time It's in me and I just think maybe I should write about maybe I should do a video but I don't really I don't really like I'd rather teach it to everybody like face to face more than anything I'll go all day all night. I just won't stop like I'm running it into you But Dave popped up and said Will you do this with me? And I'm just like me first me first question was why me because I I don't think I'm that relevant if I'm honest That's why I said I needed buttering up a little bit You know So I mean I I know at one point, you know, I painted some things that got me some attention You know, but I really need because the last few years I've not really I've not I've not done any peacocking I've not done any showing off. I've not done any promoting because I don't have anything really to promote or show off as far as like an objective goals You know, I mean, I don't have targets to hit. I don't have I don't have commissions to win I don't you know If students find me and students will not come and learn from me Then then I'll let fate do all that and if that sort happens to coincide with me painting something and sharing it on Instagram then nice one because generally I'll get a lot of students when I'm painting things and showing it on Instagram sure, you know but um Yeah, the the book is about teaching people and I will get I'm aiming to get that done as effectively as possible in words As if me and you are in the same space together. Sure. It's not going to be a lecture It's going to be a challenge. I will challenge everybody with the book whoever everybody who reads it So it's for those that want a progress and those that want to understand painting deeper Regardless, so so there's one thing about the book While my information is particular to me and the students that have learned it It applies to every painter whether they use my methods or not Right, it applies to every painter every consistency as a signature Every type of brushstroke as a signature Once you learn to recognize them signatures, you won't have to ask somebody how they painted it You'll see that consistency or see that brushstroke You don't have to ask how it's there in front of you Right. Yeah, so I take you through I'll be taking you through an experience the experience all my students get when they're sitting this chair next to me Yeah, oh on the internet which really is you're on another chair here by the way, so sure, you know um Yeah, any student that sits with me.  I'm gonna do what I can Essentially nice, but it's gonna it's gonna be about teaching. I'm very excited. I'm very excited. Well, I'm shitting But It's gonna be awesome Thank you. Well, I'm I'm 20,000 words in now, you know 300 not pictures all of examples and I'm sure I'm already thinking about a lot of revisions already So I don't know I hope Everything happens on time, you know, because I have a life around doing sure this this book as well I hope everything happens on time I would rather the book was late and done properly not that I'm aiming for that I'm aiming for it. It's very on time and properly But I want it as as good as I can make it Which I'm sure won't be perfect because first time I've ever written a book I'm not an academic guy didn't go to school or anything like that. So I'm doing my best you know and Then maybe if these revisions to be made we can do them in future with Dave and if I I'm inspired to do more books with it because I'm sure I could just keep writing You know, I do a book on non-merc do a book on text you do. I don't know or You know, just just level two essentially. I Will see what future brings You know, or If somebody wants to come sit here with me Do that as well All of Tommy's information will be down below in the description. So hit him up. I'll have everything down there Check it out. The Kickstarter's link down there to Go support it. It's the second round is so exciting Not only you're not only getting Tommy's book, but also two other Fantastic artists. So go check out the project. Tommy. I just want to thank you man. This has been amazing No, thank you Vince mom. Do you know what you just mentioned the other two artists?  That's what informs all of his work. I had a private chat of him a few weeks ago I also had a private chat was saying a few weeks ago. Man. What a fascinating guy I can't wait to see what's in both their books because it's almost like every book that's been so far They're all polar opposites to mine. You know, they're all expressive and artistic And mine isn't and what's going to go in those books when I read Chris's So so they make Dave asked me not Dave. Sorry Dave and Chris asked me to write the forward for Chris's book And I was like, I won't write the forward until I've read the book Sure And I'm like, oh, yeah, but we're still working on it. I was like, no I won't write it until I've read the book. I won't write until I've read the mind I was so happy I did You know, because there's a lot of heart and soul in those those those other works and having chat to those guys It's exciting that my book is going to come out alongside five others And hopefully it will help you See the wonder that they're producing is they're going to be talking quite emotionally in process But I'll be like helping you out with the technical side This is good. But yeah, those guys man fascinating. Are you having them on by the way? Uh, yeah, I've had Chris on before. I'll probably have yes all of them on again. Yes, absolutely So saying he's fast forward man. Yeah, I really enjoy I'll give him a lot very good Tommy. Thank you. Thank you so much brother I really appreciate your time all of you out there. Thank you so much for watching We really appreciate it check out the links everything's down below as always Don't forget to give this a like Subscribe because we do the interview with the artist as well as everything else we do here So do all those fun things