Good evening, I'd like to call the regularly scheduled select board town of Berlin, town of select board to order from Monday, February the 6th, 2023. With us tonight is close to my left is Flo Smith and Joe Stobb to my right is Carl Parton. This also is Vince Connie, town administrator and Diane Isabel Town Treasurer. Any additions or changes to the agenda? Yes, there are tonight. For the appointments, we've added Mr. Kelly, who came in after the agenda was posted. The express is interested to be on the economic development committee as well. We have some additional liquor licenses that are in your package, liquor and tobacco, that have come in to be approved after the minutes were posted. And also the addition of an executive session to talk about contracts. Public comment, hearing none. Appointments of Wayne Lamberton, Roberta Haskin, Pat McDonald, Diane Isabel, and Pete Kelly to the economic development committee. Are you doing it? No. I move that we accept the appointment of the one, two, three, four, five mentioned individuals to the economic development committee. Second. Any further discussion? All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries. Thank you for your service, Pete. Thank you. Inverberg. Inverberg. No. OK. Just on that note, since there's two here, I'd just like to mention that I'll reach out to each of you to set up an initial meeting, give you an idea of where we are, some of the things going on, and kind of what we're looking at, hopefully, to move forward together. So thank you. And Diane as well. Thank you. Thank you very much. Sorry. You've got a brilliant all-star team there. Very exciting. OK. All those in favor? Aye. Yeah, we did. OK. The Beaver Baffle Request by Skip Lyle. Leslie? Skip Lyle. He's online. He came in to answer any questions. He regards to what we get on that. So I know the board have requested that. So he's here tonight. On the Beaver Baffles, if they're not successful or the maintenance is unrealistic, what happens to them? I don't build them. I don't build them that way. Anyway, thanks for having me, everybody. Yeah, I mean, I've been doing this for decades. And my goal has always been to build really high quality devices. The general term I use is flow device. And one of the reasons I do that is because I don't want there ever to be a need for constant maintenance. So I try to design that out so that they're very high quality. They're made for the long run. Not only do they have to essentially sneak water away from beavers, which is a big challenge, but they have to survive the elements in a very harsh environment. So extremely durable and effective. And if I do say so myself, a great investment. Can you tell us about a success story you've had with these? What's a location that you've had one of these and what's the longest one has lasted without having to be maintained or repaired? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I've worked at Thout. I've been doing this almost 30 years. I've worked at thousands of sites around the world. Are you guys there? Yeah. OK, my screen just changed. Interestingly enough, the site and it's not the same flow device because I've updated it over the decades. But when I was in my teens here on the property I'm living at now in graph in Vermont, I built my first fence. Let's call it a simple fence on the town road culver. And that's now my family has protected that site now for well over 50 years. So I believe that's a world record. The town has not had to put a penny into the site in that time. And as a result of not having to kill the beavers, we have just wonderful wildlife filled wetlands on our property. And then I'll mention a couple other sites because when I first started this, I had gone to college at the University of Maine. And right after college in 1995, I got a job for the Penobscot Indian Nation. And so that's when I began my professional flow device career. They have about 130,000 acres and they had a huge problem with beavers. And over the years, that's when I first coined the phrase beaver deceiver, which is the name of my products. And so we developed some very good products there. And by 2000, we had probably been the first large land owner in the world to completely beaver-proof our property non-lethally. So that was a big success story. And they've saved an enormous amount of money and again, indirectly created a great deal of the best wildlife habitats there are. Really are these beaver flowages as a term I use for beaver-created wetlands. And then my own town of Grafton has been beaver-proof since the early part of this century. It's again, saved a ton of money. Another example would be, it's on my website and there's a little bit of a case study done. You'll see it's called the Andover Case Study in New Hampshire. And we essentially beaver-proof that town too. And they, using some of their old records, oftentimes these figures are not, good figures on what the beaver issue is costing a town aren't really kept. But they had some pretty good figures and say estimated the amount of money they've saved and will save over the years, switching from a lethal to a non-lethal defense. And just, I'll end my answer there. And I just wanted to say a little bit about the beaver-human conflict. It's restricted to beaver-damming habitat, which is low gradient areas on small streams. That's a very small percentage of the landscape, especially in a mountainous state like Vermont. So what that means is you only have a handful of chronic conflict points in almost every town. It's just a handful. And so you can eliminate the conflict entirely on town roads with high quality flow devices very quickly. And I could do it alone in a couple of weeks and protect you for many decades and essentially end the problem. Whereas a lethal defense, you'll have repeat conflicts and it's almost usually culverts as you know, but you'll have repeat conflicts at the same site over and over and over again, down through the decades. And so one conflict point essentially turns into scores of them. So I'd be glad to take the next question. I see that there's no opt out on your memorandum of understanding here. I don't have a memorandum of understanding. That may be somebody else's. This is the protect our wildlife that's gonna contribute a percent of the cost. I gotcha.  We live in, we still have an economy here where you can do so much, especially maybe in rural areas based on just trust.  And so I very rarely have the need for formal contracts and it's worked incredibly well over the decades. Okay, so you're just providing the beaver deceivers for this save our wildlife or... Protect our wildlife. Yeah, group. So how does, let me think how to say this. How does it work if there's a problem or if there's still a problem with the beavers at these choke points? Who takes care of it? I do.  So they just support my work sometimes, but I'm always responsible for the quality of my work. And, you know, I have, you know, many, many, many different types of clients in different places. And it's always that way. But the thing that, you know, and so, yeah, your best guarantee is just hiring somebody. And I don't mean to toot my horn, but it's just hiring somebody who's really good is who's gonna do a really solid job. And those people are very rare. And then another thing to keep in mind is that a kill defense, you know, some of your sites in town, you may have been killing the beavers, you know, for, you know, decades since the first beavers came back, because it's usually the same, those same culverts in the same places in beaver damning habitat that are problems.  You know, it can be a very good short-term remedy, but it's a very poor long-term remedy.  You know, whether you have beavers there or not for, you know, for a long time is really a much better guarantee of solving the problem. That's all of solving the problem. Yeah, go ahead, Joe. Hi, this is Joe Stubb. You're talking about little or no maintenance. What kind of maintenance may we encounter? Or is that something you would encounter? Yeah, well, that's a good question, Joe. It's a little hard to answer because every site is different, especially a culvert site. Everyone is different. The watershed size is different, the substrate, the topography, a lot of different variables. But generally speaking, so I have to speak in generalities. You know, there's very little maintenance. Every now and then, you know, there may be a problem.  But in terms of just the beavers themselves, it'll be, I'll try to design, eliminate maintenance requirements to the greatest extent that I can. And I don't know how else to say it, but if you don't do that, again, you're gonna have, you'll never have a clog culvert again with a beaver deceiver. But if you don't do it, you're guaranteed that you're gonna routinely have a clog culvert. And that often translates into a great deal of maintenance costs. So each site is designed specifically for the site. And do you take into account flood events? I take into account everything, Joe. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Yeah, I try to design for everything.  And because it dissolves raw steel very quickly. So the only steel that I use in the water, steel mesh, it's heavy gauge and it'll all be epoxy coated and from the factory. And then in addition to that, I spray every spot weld because they don't do a great job getting the spot welds at the factory. So that's a really critical factor in terms of surviving the environment. But then I, you know, here's another example. So let me as quickly describe what a beaver deceiver, the typical beaver deceiver it looks like at a culvert. It's an initial fence to prevent the beavers from directly clogging a culvert. And then, but that's not enough typically because the beavers could build a big dam around the fence. So that's almost always has a, what I generically call a pipe system with it. And that's where all the deceiving takes place, a big well-designed sophisticated pipe system with what I call a filter on the end of it. And that's how you sneak water away from beavers controlled damming behavior. And so, so anyway, so I'm just trying to paint a little picture here.  So when you have a massive flood and I've been in New England, I'm a Vermonter and I've been in New England my whole life. So I know how that, I know about massive floods. I never want my flow device to be the limiting factor. I always want it to be the culvert. And so I try to, I don't build the receiver fence any higher than I have to because during a big flood I want the water pouring over the top of that fence long before it pours over the top of the road. And then of course, you know, another big threat is the force of ice. And so I just build, I use wooden frames and I brace them up really well. And yeah, I have full devices in Northern Alaska and you know, Northern Maine and lots of coal places and you know, they've held up fine. I'm curious like how they're gonna work when they go backwards. Let's see on the bottom side of a culvert is because the top side's got a fence around it. Yeah, yeah. Good point, good point. It's, yeah, well, you have to think of everything in this, when you're dealing with beavers in this harsh environment, but you know, probably 95% or something of the damning efforts occur on the upstream side. So that's the side that you really have to have a sophisticated flow device on. But you know, sometimes I'll do something on the downstream side, you know, it can be much simpler and it's not a threat at every site but I'm very aware of that possibility. And so I will never use like a full vertical fence because I don't, so oftentimes I'll use sort of a horizontal fence that I kind of arc over the culvert because I don't wanna put anything vertically in that's gonna catch debris and impede the capacity of the culvert. And so, but that's usually enough to discourage them from coming up and then the water flows underneath that arc, horizontal arc piece of fencing. So I'll definitely take that into consideration, let's say. My other question is, you keep talking about culverts and stuff. Have you looked at where they're looking to install these projects? Because one of them isn't even a culvert, it's an arched branch. Yeah. Pretty feet and then you have two five foot culverts side by side with a watershed size of a pond. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. You know, I just use that as shorthand. Another way, another phrase I use which is a little less simple is I divide damming sites into two categories, narrow manmade outlets, which can be, you know, bridges, culverts, overflows on manmade dams. It's mostly culverts, it's mostly road culverts.  And so I've worked at virtually every type of outlet or culvert there is, including concrete bridges and huge culverts and little culverts and everything in between. So I'm very, you know, one advantage to having a lot of experience and working a lot of different sites is I'm very, very adaptable or adaptive. So I, you know, and that's a critical quality to maximize your success rates because, you know, regular beaver dams are pretty consistent but every culvert site is very different. And so you have to, again, you know, as I've said you really have to mold the design to fit the, you know, individual characteristics of a culvert or bridge site. And I mean, probably the biggest challenge or things get more expensive and more difficult as watershed size increases because you have to scale your, of course, you know, that's often reflected in the size of a bridge or the size of a culvert. And so then you have to scale your device for that and it has to be bigger accordingly. Do you know what the, have you looked into what the water flow is to those culverts? No, no, no, I've worked so many sites, you know. I can adapt to anything, you know, I can do it. And if it's, every now and then, I mean, the only time I, and it's very rare that I might recommend against a flow device is when it's a beaver dam in a massive watershed.  And so, you don't need a flow device there, but it's rare if ever that I say that regarding a culvert because even in a giant watershed, if a beaver clogs a big opening, a big culvert or a small bridge, then the dam is kind of wedged in there and it can survive a really big flow, often much better than say a so-called regular beaver dam. But, you know, anyway, I don't expect to come to a site I can't do, but the bigger they are, it might just cost a little more. Skip, Dave Sawyer, I just had a question. I had looked at some of your on your website in the wood. What is the wood you're using for? Yeah, thank you for checking that out, Dave. Yeah, I'm an old carpenter. So, as you all know, wood's a wonderful building material. I wouldn't use anything else. But having said that, I use a couple of different kinds and if it's out of the water, well, let me take a step back. All my framing is in, is almost all my framing are two by fours. If it's out of the water, then I use pressure treated. If it's underwater, then I use spruce, killed dried spruce, because under the water wood decays extremely slowly. And so you don't need to have that defense against organisms that'll road of the way. And what was your total cost for these baffles? Every site's different. And I haven't given, I don't know how many you're contemplating doing in your town. So I haven't given you a total price. Yeah, but I'd be glad to do that. If you get a sense of how many sites you'd like to do and then I can come check them out and give you a quote. Well, I think it was, it was the one out here, the double culvert and the one over on Mira Lake Road. All right. So, the Mira Lake Road is a 30 foot arch, aluminum arch and one out here on the pond, on the discharge from the pond is a, is it two five foot culverts side by side? Those are definitely above average, well above average, you know. Yeah. In terms of size and watershed size and flow device size. So, yeah, we have a bit more, but you know, if, you know, if I can get a package together and do several sites in your area, then I can bring the price down a little bit. If it's just one site, then it's more for obvious reasons. Mobilization. Any other questions for, a lot of, well, that's a general skip. Yeah. Yeah. I'm doing that all day, every day. So, any other questions for Skip? So I guess the question is, do we want to take and have him come and give an estimate on this? I think you need an estimate to even consider proceeding with that. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, it would help to, you know, if you guys can decide, you know, how many sites you'd like to do, I mean, I'll tell you just to get your heads wrapped around it. Last year in Vermont, in areas close to home here, and again, every site's different, but they averaged around four grand per site. And, you know, half of that's materials. Roughly, so it might be a little more than that if you have really big watersheds. It might be a little, you know, not much more if you can put together a package and want to do several sites. So that would help me to know, you know, know if you'd like to do more than one, certainly. The sooner you protect them, the sooner you're going to start saving money. So if you can come up with a box, it's good to get it done quickly. See, those are the two sites that bother the most. Yeah. It's only been this year. Yeah. So, yes, again, it's a question of what does the board want to do here? Do you want to take and pursue this, or do you want to take and drop your emotion? Yes, no? Well, I don't know about committing to the two. I think, you know, you do have one that's probably more bothersome than the other. Is that true? They're about the same. About the same. Okay. Just because you're not committing to anything. It's just going to come down and give you a point. Right. Is it a free estimate? Yeah. No. Your estimate is free? Free. I get myself into a lot of trouble because sometimes I go into it just assuming I'm going to get the job, you know, and then I don't, you know, I often don't charge for that, but I got to be careful there because it's a lot of driving, a lot of time. So, but if you're pretty confident, you might hire me for a couple of flow devices, then I'll do it for free. Well, the only thing is, I mean, we got, how much time do you spend digging those out? We have to do all three of them. It's just cool about here, but both places, less than an hour.  Free. And did I hear you say that this year was the only year that's been a problem? Yes. On Mira Lake. Out here has been. It's have been continued.  On going. They can go two or three years and they won't touch it and then all of a sudden they'll go at it for a year and then they might not touch it again for two or three more years. And that's probably because you, Mira Lake is the first year that's, they've done that also to my knowledge, but they call it something like that. So those years of quiet, quietness, non-building is based off of removal of those beavers as well as. I can answer to that because I don't know prior knowledge to whether they were trapped out of there. I mean, that's the first time they've touched it in almost four years that I've been here. And I, I could do a little research to find out what was done in the prior years that they'd been in there. This summer was a drought year or two with low rainfall. So probably the beavers would have carried away. Worked a little harder to find water and dam, right? Yeah. But they, you know, if any of you guys that approved my website, I guess you probably know where I'm coming from, but keeping live beavers in the ecosystem has like, you know, really a lot of values for a lot of wildlife too. They're, you know, it's hard to quantify those values, but they're really significant and real. And so it's always better if you can, you know, not to eliminate, eliminate beavers, but not always possible. I understand that. Well, apparently we're not having any luck to eliminate them. The problem there is that it's such a vast area. I don't even know what the acreage of that pond is, but I bet it's over 200 acres. Yeah. I mean, it's like searching for a needle in a haystack. And then, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And beavers are, you know, they may be a slow moving animal, but they are great explorers of the landscape. They're always looking, and one of the things they're looking for, whether two things are really attracted to them, a good damning site. And then because they're territorial animals, they're often also looking for a vacant habitat.  So yeah, I know it's often an intermittent problem, you know, they may go away for a while, they may get killed, whatever the case may be, but that trend, it'll go on in perpetuity, you know. And over the decades, that can get really expensive. And so the Andover case study, you'll get some sense of that. And there's been other people, there's a woman by the name of, excuse me, Stephanie Boyles who did a very detailed study, and it was my work. I did over 40 flow devices at the turn of the century for the state of Virginia. And she did a very detailed study of that. I think it's, if you wanted to Google it, if you Googled Stephanie Boyles 2002, I think her paper would come up. And so the state, you know, has saved millions of dollars. The Penobscot's have probably saved a million dollars over the, you know, now over the decades. My town has saved tens or hundreds of thousands.  And is the savings, those savings will really add up. Yeah. Is the savings from your perspective, maintenance of the potentially clogged, clogged, yeah. Yeah, that's primarily it.  And, you know, sometimes that can get pretty difficult. Say if a beaver really clogs it in the middle of the culvert, and then you have to, you know, you may have to ramrod it and may have to do it every day, every week until you kill the beavers.   But that's not part of any of these studies. That's just a big part of my thinking. They're all just quantifying the, you know, the maintenance costs. And so, and over, Stephanie Boyle's are big ones. You know, I think there's a fellow in Massachusetts by the name of Mike Callahan at Beaver, a company called Beaver Solutions. I actually, I was, he was a protege of mine. And he did a similar study too that you probably find on his website, you know, but as long as it's a high quality flow device, you can't, it'll pay for itself many, many times over again. And really quickly, because culverts are Beaver magnets. There really are, they're such ideal damming sites. There's never been anything like that on the landscape.  So this is a question for our maintenance people here not you Skip, but is there any cost or potential danger for allowing the Beavers to stay there as far as the backflow flooding in the locations where we're looking to potentially have a baffle? In other words, are the property owners or their houses, especially here on, on this road that are can be adversely affected if the Beavers are allowed to stay and the backflow floods onto their property. Yeah, it's not a mirror lake road. The city mobile area owns that whole valley for well back in the Northfield. So it's not going to affect them and all it is usable property and nobody there. There's that. And then out here, you know, I mean, we don't let it get too high out here, but if it backed up into there, he gets mostly back into the state right away. And maybe the gentleman out here with a brick house, I think he owns that backfield. I don't know if it get that high to get into his field or not. I have a question for you, Skip. This is Joe Staubigan. Do you, when you build these dams, do you kind of control the water level that's allowed by the Beavers? I guess that depends on the site again. I'd say every regular beaver dam I do, yes. Yes, you know, the system has to sort of tie into a beaver dam. So you need the beaver dam. So you're controlling it. Whereas at most culvert sites or all culvert sites, it's not acceptable to have a dam in a culvert. So even if you have a nice pond there because you have a clogged culvert, that's got to go. That just goes. So I'm not, you know, every now and then I'll come to a site that really lends itself to a roadside wetland. And I will encourage the beavers to dam out in front of the culvert in an arc. I still have to protect the culvert, but it's a great, and there's several examples here in Southern Vermont where the town then uses them as a fire pond. So in fact, it's one of my own town. So a roadside wetland on a quiet road that in a road that's relatively high can be a real opportunity. And it's a great place to view wildlife. But, you know, 95% of the culvert sites is just, I don't do that. And I'm just preventing any damming behavior at all. So at the culvert. I hope that helps, Joe. Well, I think it does. So the question for discussion around the table was would the beaver dam allow the water to back up onto property owners? So I think you have some control there with this dam. Yeah, yeah. At a site like that, I'm trying to prevent the growth of a beaver dam entirely. So, but if you get a big flood or a big flow at some time with an unprotected culvert and there's a beaver dam in it, then you have problems. And every now and then, that'll cause a road to blow out. So that's a big part of that. In some of those studies, like the Virginia study, I think they had experienced a few of those. And so they can, you can quickly spend 100 grand or something when that happens. So just the sake of kind of moving this forward. Do we want to stable this? Do some further research? Maybe get an estimate from Mr. Lyle and then put it back on the agenda. I think that'd be the wise thing. Because I mean, we're not, basically what we're discussing is whether or not the beaver receiver would work. And if we're going to go forward before we're going to have to have a firm price. So it'd be a matter of figuring out, do you want to do just crosstown or do you want to take into crosstown and silver? Well, I think I'll put Tim and see. We know we have two sites for sure. Do we have a third somewhere? And maybe that want to be considered in that and then I'll work with Mr. Lyle. Tell him what we're looking at and invite him down to take a look and give us a cost estimate if he's going to at that point. And then I'll put it back on the board's agenda after we have a price. Well, see, one of the things that appeals to me about the baffle is that you're continuing the flow of water. If you allow the beavers to dam it up and then the dam blows out, it's the surge that would be problematic. Right. Because that's going to affect people downstream, not upstream. So consensus here, have Vince go forward with this? I myself am inclined to table it futuristically, maybe a few years out when money is not quite so tight as it is now per se and continue with the normal maintenance and what those folks do for us when we have issues. But that's my own take on it. I really appreciate your presentation Skip and I think what you do is more likely wonderful, but I'm just not at a point where I'm on board with doing this right away. Well, you guys will have to take a vote, obviously. Absolutely. Oh, I appreciate what you guys are doing. Thank you. Yeah, no, I thank you. I was on a select board here in Grafton for two terms. So I know what a lot of work it is. So good for you guys. I appreciate it. Appreciate you. Yeah. Okay. Should I punch out now? Thanks. I enjoy the questions for you. Yeah. And I'll be in touch with you, Skip. Okay. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me, guys. Thank you. Nice to see you in action and a lot of good questions. Okay. See ya. Yep. Bye now. Okay. Next on the agenda is Dodge Farm Road. Okay. So in your package, I did put together a bit of a summary of events to get us what we are today from the last visit. I'll actually go back in October of 21, when the discussion started, I just put some summaries, put a summary together there of the events and the meetings and the results there to try to summarize it, to get you back up to people with discussions. At the bottom, then there's a bit of a recommendation for discussion and hopefully a decision. So they have done anything from when we expected that last summer? Correct. Okay. So a motion to accept the recommendations listed at the bottom of this summary. Is that what we're looking for? Well, it's entirely up to the board. I'm just looking for discussion on this and then, you know, yeah, basically a board decision on how we want to proceed. Could I hear what the recommendation is? Yeah. This is the same one. I believe you and Ray were talking to this, I don't know if it's solid or not, but it went out at a time of the year. Ray said he was going to meet, but there's more. He told me he was going to call in. There is a eight zero six. I'm in here. You're looking for me. Okay. Great. You have seen the recommendations, right? Mr. Sear? Yes, I have. Okay. All right. I've got a question just out of curiosity here because I'm reading this where planning on to grade the road meeting we have to mud-season to see if there's enough material on the top. If there isn't, who's paying to bring the material in to build that crown up? I think there's some statements in there that we're looking for agreement on that cost as well. I see the one as far as when it goes to paving, but I'm not seeing where that costs to bring most that crown up. Am I missing that? Right there. Right there. I would say that's the praise that captures it. You know, I had a quarter of an inch per foot crown as mandated under a 76. You've at least got that on that road right now. You don't have to have it crowned so that looks like a ring. So can we make a motion to accept the road with the stipulations listed in this document without reading the whole six paragraphs or? That's up. That's my motion. So you want to do like accept the summary is what you're saying. To have the town accept the road as listed and with the stipulations. I'm willing to read it as well if anyone wants to hear it in its entirety. I'm going to read it into the record. Did you want to say something, Ray? No, no, I just, I'd kind of like to hear what those stipulations are. Go ahead, please. Excellent. I'm going to go ahead and read that into the record. Based on all discussions in the history of events, the following recommendation is presented for discussion and decision. The town should accept the road with the following stipulations. As per the original request, the town is only accepting Dodge Farm Road and not Water Works Way. This point is up to where the previous existing cul-de-sac was located. The town still has the agreed right away access across Water Works Way to access the well field and has no obligation or responsibility there other than the current agreement of plowing and sanding. HOA accepts the terms of the policy, the town policy section 12, which states, when the road has been completed and accepted, the town may begin normal maintenance for 12 months. After 12 months of maintenance, if no serious defects have been observed, the deed will be recorded in the road will become a town highway in accordance with provisions 19 VSA chapter seven. During the 12 month initial acceptance period, any flaws or defects, which are pointed out to the developer or owner will be their responsibility to correct. During this period, the town will order and erect the necessary signs. In addition to the above, the town agrees to work in good faith with the owner's HOA of Dodge Farm Road to agree to any additional costs that may occur with any and all issues that may arise during this period. The town will start its 12 month maintenance on March 1, 2023 to capture mud season. The town plans to grade the road immediately after mud season to determine if there is enough top course material since that is still in question. In addition, during this grading, the town will address the concerns still existing regarding the lack of crown in the road. The town also plans to remove brass berms from the roadside during this time to address additional water runoff concerns. The town does not accept any liability or ownership implied or otherwise regarding underground cabling that is installed as there are agreed areas where it was not able to be installed to town standards. The town will not pave this road for at least 10 years unless the board decides it is the best interest of the town to do so. Should residents request to be paved prior to March of 2034, they will agree to pay half the cost to do so. Is that your motion, Carl? Yep. Right. Here a second. I'll second. Okay. Roberta. First, in addition to the waterworks way to spur, Dodge Farm Road also spurs a little bit past the roundabout. And you may want to address that in our previous discussions, the town was not going to take that over because there's no place for the truck to turn, trucks to turn around. And you want to include that in this, that portion is not going to be a town road. As a culprits association, we already had discussed it and knew that wasn't going to happen, that this all going to remain. I think that's the way that's written. Okay. That is a roundabout just to where the culprits exist. Okay. I think that's the way it's written to do that because I think Bray had mentioned that to the people. Yeah. That was right. The waterworks way crosses over to lot number nine. Yeah. And then Dodge Farm Road continues up to two or three more houses, two or three more highways. But it's very, Yes. So it's under the, Yeah. It's not wide enough to be a town road. Yeah. All right. So that's it. It permeates out the culprits. Yeah. Any other discussion? All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries. Thank you very much. Come in, Roberta. Thank you, Roberta. Thank you, Ray. Thank you very much. Yeah. Let's see here. Vermont Declaration of Inclusion Discussion Decision. Yes. We have Mr. Cohen online to present that. Colin, can you hear us? You're on mute. If you can hear us. Norm, you're muted. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Well, thank you very much. I'm going to just introduce my friend and colleague, Bob Harness, who was the founder of this initiative, the Declaration of Inclusion Initiative, and asked him to speak for a few minutes, and then he's got another presentation to make, and I'll try and fill in the gaps. All right. Thank you, Norm. As Norm said, my name is Bob Harness, one of the founders of the Inclusion Initiative. And we're just here to say a few words about an initiative that we think is important to Vermont and every town in it.  But it only works if the leadership of the town leads the way and sets an example of being unbiased and respectful of all residents and urges citizens to model similar behavior. So what is that statement that we're talking about? I think the select board members, I think have a copy of it in their packet, but for others who may be present, I will read it. It's quite short. The town of Berlin condemns racism and welcomes all persons regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, age or disability and wants everyone to feel safe and welcome in our community. As a town, we formally condemn discrimination in all its forms, commit to fair and equal treatment of everyone in our community and will strive to ensure that all our actions as a town policies and operating procedures reflect this commitment. The town of Berlin is and will continue to be a place where individuals can live freely and express their opinion. So to give a little history, I first heard of the declaration of inclusion from my cousin who was chair of the select board in Franklin. Franklin adopted the declaration in September of 2020. And my town of Pittsburgh, just north of Rutland adopted it a few weeks later and then Brandon adopted. At that point, I began to think of this as a statewide effort. And I recruited Norm Cohen who is with us tonight and Al Wakefield to join me. So we are three octogenarians on a mission to make Vermont more diverse and the economy of the state more dynamic. Towns in your area that have acted affirmatively on this are Moortown, Randolph, Richmond, Hardwick, Barry City, St. Johnsbury, East Montpelier and 86 other towns and cities. These 93 municipalities representing nearly 60% of Vermont's population that have adopted a statement saying that they want their town to be more inclusive and unbiased.  Our Statue of Liberty is the symbol of our willingness and our eagerness for diversity in our population. This diversity is what makes us strong and a model for the world. So we suggest that being inclusive is a morally right thing to do. But for Vermont, it is also the economically urgent thing we need to do.  As a state, Vermont must look ahead too because based on the 2020 census, we know that Vermont's population growth is stagnant and the average age of Vermonters is increasing. And we are losing our younger people to opportunities out of state. This is not bode well for the long-term economic vitality of the state. We need to grow the population. In our town, in our towns and statewide. And one way to do this is to put out the word that Vermont is a welcoming, respectful place for all. Where newcomers will be respected, included and encouraged. So with that sort of prelude, I turn it back to Norman who will give more details about our significant allies in this effort and what we think is the future. Well, thank you, Bob. And again, thank you, you folks for letting us join the meeting tonight. Last year CNBC conducted a survey and the survey results were very interesting. Vermont was considered and established and recognized as the best place in the United States, the best state in the United States to live. I know that, Bob knows that, you know that. And I'm a flat lander, I've only been here 55 years and I understand those limitations. And but where it said Vermont lacked was diversity and inclusiveness. And we are the whitest state in the country, 98. something percent. And part of this, if not the significant part, and I think it is, is that we need to draw people and we need to make sure that if we draw people and we draw companies with diverse employees that they are comfortable here, that they know we stand for the right kinds of things. And Governor Scott has thrown the weight of his office behind us. He issued a proclamation of inclusion two years ago and he has issued twice a proclamation, making the second week in May inclusion week. And we are lobbying him again with all we can, all the force we can bring to have him do it. And of course I say that a little bit tongue in cheek in that he's got a lot to do. It comes at a very busy time, we understand that. And but we still hope we can get through and get him to do it again. The, we have Bob said 93 towns and close to 60% of the population, not a town has turned us down. Thank goodness. And I don't want to be the first. And it's just been an incredible adventure for the three of us. We knew each other, but now, you know, two hours don't go by where we're not in touch every day of the week. At first we said it wasn't a job, it's become that and one we enjoy. I'm not sure what else I can tell you. The really one of the things I guess I should say is that the two phases to this one is adopting the declaration and then putting his thoughts into practice which we have called implementation. And so we're available to help with that. There are resources statewide and local original to help.  And then it can be more long range. And, you know, we welcome you and encourage you to do it all and we'll try to help and guide you to where you can get help if you need it. So I'll, I just wanna say one thing, other thing if I may, I wanted to commend Mr. Conti and several conversations with him and he is an incredibly comfortable man to deal with. And you should be very proud. Thank you. So I'm done. Yes. Motion on this? A motion to accept the declaration of inclusion with some potential language change. Such as? Well, first of all, I'd like to say it's too bad that we have to formally condemn things that I think humanity should just be automatically doing. And certainly I'd like to defend Berlin and my neighbors and Vermont and my state to say that it's a rarity for me to see any non-inclusive behavior or attitudes. I've had exceptional neighbors, regardless of political orientation or party or race, gender creed or anything else listed here. So I wanna defend Vermont and Berlin a bit. With that said, I do support this opportunity to signal our virtue here in Berlin and Vermont by doing this. And I do support a statement of inclusion, although I wish we didn't have to do a period. Oh, well, the language changes. Yeah, yes. So the town of, and I think most of it is absolutely excellent. I wanted to expand it a little bit, really, mostly and put a couple just minor word changes that take some ambiguity away from the statement. The town of, my suggestion is the town of Berlin condemns racism and welcomes all persons, regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, legal, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression. So legal is a change. Age, health or vaccination status or disability, health and vaccination status is an addition or disability and wants everyone to be rather than feel safe and welcome in our community. As a town, we formally condemn discrimination in all its forms and commit to, and my change was just instead of fair. Fair is a relative word and subject to opinion and equal treatment of everyone in our community legally. I had legally and will strive to ensure all actions, policies and operating procedures reflect this commitment. I'm absolutely in support of this. I wish our town and I don't think our town and I wish our state and I don't think our state needs to do this and say this out loud. I wish it was just part of our humanity, but I'm in support of it with those changes. I had to second that motion. Any discussion from the discussion on this, the word changes? I just, there was one word I thought I missed in the second paragraph. Did you insert the word legal somewhere? Legally, yeah. Everyone in our community legally was the only addition I made. Yeah, yeah. And it was health and vaccination? Vaccination status, correct. As we noticed a couple of years ago, there was a bit of discrimination specifically on that issue, in my opinion. What are your thoughts, folks, in terms of us, if we were to approve it with those language changes, have you had other towns do that, or is your preference that it be identical to what you presented to us to review? We, of course, would like it to be as close to what we presented as possible. Other towns have changed it. That decision is up to them. I think only one town we had some strong exceptions to and you don't come close. If I did it, if I was gonna make a change, would I make these changes? Not all of them, but I think my buddies will still speak to me if you adopt it this way. It may cost me a couple rounds of drinks, but you know. And did you say you have 93 other towns that have accepted? Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you. Any other discussion on this? All those in favor, as it was presented by Carl? Aye. Aye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Could you send me a signed copy, please? Just email it to me. Mr. Conti could do it. Yes. And once we have the signed copy, we will add you to the list. And you can see it on the Mont Declaration of Inclusion.org, VT Declaration of Inclusion. There's two places where there's lists and we'll be delighted to add it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you again, Mr. Conti. Thank you. Okay. Good night. Good night. Good night. RFP for police network assessment and approval? Yes. So I've been working with this. I be technologies, as you know, they did that complete system change out over here and to get the fault for the system change out in the police and to update their speaker kind of a cop system put together over there. They looked at it and said, when they can finalize their quote, they basically need to come in and do a full assessment because they've done a lot of hands in it over there. There's a lot of things, it's a wiring issue. They've made the trades out to understand exactly what they need to do and how they need to interface with the state as well on some of the requirements. That's what this is. Copy out of your package. But that's what this is. They have to do this where they can design the appropriate system to roll with their corrective action. So this is, the assessment is the 2,125 dollars. That's correct. Will this be going to the police budget or? Capital budget? No, it's not. This wasn't budgeted for a new budget. And we already approved the ARPA funds for the computer system change. This came after that, unfortunately, because they didn't realize until they looked, the number of issues that are over there and the old equipment. So they need to really figure out what's the best system they designed to meet the needs of the parents. There's one thing on page seven that I know under limitation of liability. It's the second sentence, the total liability of RV technologies for such damages will be limited and will not exceed one million, one million dollars per claim and or two million. And then just in parentheses, that would need to be changed to be two million dollars. And just to make you aware, a lot of the computers that police are using are eight years or older. Most all of them. I think that the nine years I've been here, we've replaced one computer. Again, one of the things in conversation with them that we discovered with RV Tech is they do have the ability to switch from the ADS system that they need for a panel through the state and whatnot. Based on the equipment that's installed, they could actually come over to our.gov email with us as well. And there'll be a reduced cost. Again, it'll be small, but there'll be a reduced cost not having to use ADS for that service. And where was the 2125 on the front? Well, my suggestion is going to be that's why we left some money in our book. Surprises like this. And that's not necessarily a thank you account. They're coming here. They're not going to be able to do all those for mobile. No, they have to come here. They have to come here. They have no inspection as well. And so they do have something in there for lodging and meals and mileage as well. And do we know how many trucks they might be taking here? It's just an unknown. Yeah, that's not sure. I read it over and I thought that was mostly for out of state to travel and not necessarily since they're a local company. And they did note a 20% discount for being an existing client as well. Another example they found just initially, there's supposed to be two lines coming into the building that are separate. One for them, one for this side of the building. It's not the case. And that's a problem. So again, there's things like that. They just got to map it out, see where all the problems are, make sure they don't repeat any problems and basically rebuild the system, correct? Will it be cheaper just taking, got it in stat new or is it gonna be? That's just about where we're at now. Again, a big portion of this is they have to understand from these guys, what are the state requirements and get those clear when they lay out the equipment and the server and how it all works as well. That's the intent of this. Thank you. Any thoughts? I move that we accept the network assessment for the Berlin PDE from RB Technologies using ARPA funds, so make for it. Here a second. I would just add in the amount of $2,125 and I second it. Thank you. Any further discussion? Those in favor? Aye. Aye. Motion carries for water asset management plan. Yeah, we have both those. They're both from the State Revolving Loan Program, for grants, from Diane's paper. They are 100% funding. There's no match required for these and they're again, to develop a water asset management plan. And the other one is for the design phase of the Scot Hill Loan. Can you say how much each one of them is for? Yep. I'll give you the amounts. For the water asset management, it's $41,745 for the Scot Hill Loan. It's $51,430. And in those dollars are also something that we're starting to capture now is 10% for admin fees as well for the staff. Of course, managing it. So both these plans are grants. They are. Here a motion on this, or at least the water asset management plan. I move to accept the water asset management plan. Second. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor? Aye. Motion carries. And then the Scot Hill Loop Design. I make the motion to approve the Scot Hill Loop Design and permitting 100% of funding application in the amount of $51,430. Second. Any further discussion? I do have a question. Does just approving the design and permitting doesn't commit us to moving forward for any timeline, right? Correct. I'm not associated with that. It's just the established plan. That was my only question. Good question. Any other discussion? Hearing none, those in favor? Aye. Aye. Motion carries. The Highway Equipment Truck. Bid acceptance approval? This is for the, well, again, just to reiterate, but the truck that we ordered last year is finally in, they put the body on it. And as we discussed it's sitting at a legions. It's not giving a body for on it yet. I don't know when it will get down. It's physically in the state of Vermont out of a facility that can do that. Let's start with that. This is a follow up to the discussion that we had during the budget season about moving forward with a truck now using our funds and the proposed budget passing. That's what this is. Should the proposed budget pass, we can have this truck with this amount, which is 281.25, oh, sorry, 281.21, 25 seconds. So, and that is road ready, but not taken at that price. Again, the urgency on this one, call it an urgency is, right? They only have three left, or one now, one left. We want to get this in and get our name associated, tied to that truck, committed to that vehicle. Again, they're willing to work with us and hold it till the budget passes as long as we have the board's crew to do so. You're emerging. You need to accept the highway equipment truck bid. From New Hampshire, AP Fairfield in New Hampshire for 280,000, $121.25. There, a second? Second. Any other discussion on this? So, my only question is, and it makes no difference to me, it's white, the board that we already have some. Is anybody cares about it? Yeah, some town, some, yeah, we can have it wrapped or they will have the cab painted, and that's the other vehicles, or we can just leave it white. But it'll be at an additional cost, obviously. How much additional cost? Right on wraps, all American, about 3,500 bucks to wrap it. I don't know what paint. In the spirit of our recent proclamation, I believe we should accept it, the color that it comes to. Well, that's perfectly fine. I'm just making sure, yes. We'll still take our sticker. So, I was just making sure that some, some places like the state, heller for me, I make a difference in how you plow the roads. No. And it has become some of the common practice now that they get a little color matched because it's all you can get. I see a lot of towns with multiple colored trucks. So, I know that's, like I said, it's come to the point where you get what you get. Yeah. And you go with it, unfortunately. Are we going to be trading in a truck towards us as well? That has been yet to be determined. They were in the process of talking with the dealer that they deal with, with the chassis to see if they would take it in on trade or there was the entertainment of that we sell it privately out of this town or depending on how things go. I was going to approach them because it probably will be after town meeting by the time that Mike's truck comes. Yeah. They would be willing to take two trucks on trade-in for the truck that we have currently at Allegiance. So it would be the 2015 and the 2017 trade-in. And it would lower the cost of the truck that we've already currently have purchased through Allegiance that has been over. Well, it'll be over a year of waiting by the time we get it. So there's a few options to play out there as far as how that goes. As long as we don't trade in more trucks and we get it back here on the... Yeah. Never going to go down that road again. So what this is is it'll be, this 10-wheeler will replace the six-wheeler which will all the trucks will be 10-wheelers. It should speed up the salt route because that's what it's gonna be replacing instead of having to come back and get loaded multiple times. One truck will be able to do the entire loop route. And then like we've had in the recent past, between springtime, we lost a truck for two months for mechanical failures. So they were working on it. So that would be an added benefit to us to have another truck for use during mud seasons. And then we've had a few breakdowns this winter. That this would help contribute to keeping us moving a little faster. We've juggled a few things. I've come in a few hours early, more earlier than the other guys to get almost 90% of my route done so they can have my truck. When I took something else and plowed with, so trying to get the wheel to move on. Right. Anything else on this? Thank you for being proactive. All those in favor? Aye. All right. Motion carries. I'd like to add one more thing. While the miss here for discussion as well, that is the Crossbound Road Cloak. You wanted to talk about that a little bit. So we're to that point or pretty close to that point in the way the weather's been flipping and flopping. I don't really know when the spring is going to come. So I was wondering if we could get that part out of it as weather, the board would be all right with me and Vince making the decision at the time. Close the road during very normal spring mud season. Without having like last year, we ended up kind of waiting for the meeting and then we were kind of a week late and it got far up pretty good in the meantime of waiting for a meeting. So. I personally feel that you're a judge or you're the professional and that's the way I feel about it. Out of curiosity, you have any sense of what mud season will be like this year? Is the frost down that far? I don't believe some. But I know we were removing some dirt out back of the house and had no problems with digging into it. You know what I mean? The roads are going to be down in there a little bit but I don't think they're in that deep but that could also play one or two ways. That could make it bottomless or it could dry out a lot faster. You know what I mean? This year was astronomical for some towns and we had it fairly. Easy. Fairly easy. So it's been hit or miss. Always like it's never the same spot. Consensus, one late coming impact the decision. I got a lot of input last year when I first got on the board about that issue because that was the big issue when I first got on and the large majority of people especially those directly impacted wanted it closed when it was muddy and unpassable. So I would trust your judgment and just to keep the board informed. And then one more to add. It hasn't happened since I've been here but there was a year or two that they we didn't barricade it but they closed.health. I'm sure Brad you remember due to the fact that for some reason every other years there's frosties. The frosties get astronomical up there. This year almost seems like it's starting a little early so I don't know if they're just gonna maintain where they're at or if they're gonna get out of court at all. So that might be one more thing to just be on our eight hour board. Perhaps have bumps ahead signs or something ready to go. I mean, if nothing else. We have them so it's just a matter of going to put the stakes up with the size of them. But just no one year they got so bad that the cars were bought them and out on them and they closed it through didn't block the road off but it wasn't through traffic. Just try to slow some of the traveling down on it. Yeah, well I would leave if the board's all right I just say leave it up to the tenant then. I'm good with that. Me too, at their discretion. Absolutely. And as Carl said keeping us updated as you always do. Okay, anything else on that? All set? Okay, capital fire request for approval. Okay, again in your packet if there's something that was talked about in the past payment and gave a presentation to find the budget in there to find that an MOU in there and the letter as well that was sent out by that. And all that's either Joe or Matt the clients with us as well. We're going to go into further detail for the board or answer any of your questions. Guys. Matt, did you want to speak on that? I can if you'd like. Can you hear me okay? Yep.  See you Tim. There's quite the delay in the audio so I apologize if I don't hear you in the interrupt but if I'm understanding this correct this is the capital funding the annual capital funding for the radio system. The capital fire mutual aid radio system serves pretty much all of central Vermont with the exception of Berrytown and it's now even extended over into the Mad River Valley covering war and fire department or Waitsville and I can't remember. It's a antiquated system held together currently by duct tape and bailing wire and a little bit of bubble milk. And the project that's being undertaken right now through communications grants with the state is to basically redo it and make it current, modern and effective. The challenge is we can't do that without a true understanding and a plan for replacing it 20 years from now when it's being held together by duct tape, bailing wire and a little bit of bubble milk. So this is a plan that was put together by the former of the fiscal part of it was put together by the former just retired town manager of Waterbury who is a genius and I wish I could talk him into running my personal finances. He's made a ton of money because he likes making money for the talent. So he put this together and it's based partially on the grand list and partially on call volume. So it is a split funding mechanism so where we don't have the busiest places that it gives a good blend as far as who is paying for the system. I don't think we pay anywhere near the most or the least which generally makes me feel good about it. I'm happy to I guess answer questions at this point. So I have a question if this is okay with the board. Go ahead. It's usually off the wall question but I see like the 10 year total the town of Berlin is 65,693.  Like you know where I'm going. Yeah, I'm just throwing an idea out there. If we had the afterwards do that could pay 10 year volume right up front 10 year and be done with it for the next 10 years. Done with it for the next 10 years. Would that be something that they'd be interested in? I don't see why they wouldn't want to do that. Joey, you want to take this one? I think that at least from my perspective I don't think it would be a problem that would just I don't think they would mind. Doesn't seem like it would be to me. Who would we need to ask to get a clear answer to that? And if the board like to build that I'd be happy to reach out. I think that conversation would be probably best with the Joe Wall's work and Paul's work. Joe Wall's work. Paul's work. Paul's work. How would this be affected overall based on all of the terms of the ones that do not approve it? How will that offset what Berlin would be built? That's one of my concerns. Matt, can you mute yourself please? I just muted. Thanks. In other words, if we were to pay the $65,693 upfront under ARPA funds, would we still have additional costs if many of these towns do not approve? What we're finding is we're finding more communities actually joining to tell you the truth because of the radio systems that are out there currently. And so this was a presentation I think you're still gonna find possibly depending on the people for the other communities that get involved with it or you might find a community that will decide not to. And I'm not exactly sure how they're gonna be paying for their radio communication, right? I think there's gonna be probably some slight adjustments throughout those 10 so years. I also don't think that they've met any resistance at least as far as I know. Everyone knows this is kind of a catastrophe waiting to happen but we've got to get this fixed up. And like Matt said earlier, you have communities out in the valley. Like there's either more town or, right Warren, Warren Beach field. Yeah. Those are new to the system. And so I believe it's the MOU is something that was signed by the town back in 1977 I believe. And so this is kind of just a, I guess an update, updated document for the town, sign in on with also copies of the bylaws such of Capitol fire. So. So I have a question about the equalizing municipal grand list formula. So we're getting both our grand list and our and our fall volume. Is that what Matt said? Yeah. So obviously Berlin's population is much lower than Berry city. And so we're paying the same because of the grand list and volume of calls. They have the call volume we have the grand list. So I guess my next question is how is this, if we were to do it in a lump sum payment, would that go toward the fire department budget? Looking like the fire department budget was going up 65,000 for the capital budget, which it seems like we hide a lot and I'm not on pro fire department, but it seems like we hide a lot of police department, fire department, town vehicles, and we throw it in the capital budget and it looks like our police budget is much lower, even though we spent a ton in the capital budget on the police department or the fire department, maybe. Where is it coming out of and where will it be found in the budget? Again, I'm going to recommend the ARPA funds, right? If we use the ARPA funds for the 10 years, that's $6,000 we don't have to put in the budget over the next 10 years, every year. That's the way I'm looking at it. So it would come out of ARPA, you get classified as a capital expenditure. So if you were to look at the fire department's budget, you will see that line item and it's specific, we have dispatching fees, which we pay annually somewhere around 40, 2000, I believe. And that goes up, that goes up just with inflation, with call volume and all, that's what gets affected. This number right here is, I don't necessarily think call volume's in there. I think it's just based off of the grand list and there is probably another factor marketed in there as well, but call volume goes under dispatching fees. The $6,000 is a separate line item on the fire department's budget to show that number right there, which we wouldn't have control over here. So I guess my next question is, who's holding the money? If we write that check out of ARPA funds for $65,693, does it go into a specific account for us or is there? The fire department, right? No, I would say, I would say, it would probably be held here in escrow and then slowly dispersed, that's what I would say. Okay, so as a reserve? Yes. Yep, you do that. How does that work? Does ARPA money have to be, by a certain degree, has to be obligated by the end of 2024? And spent by, I'll have to look at the spent by because I think you're absolutely right. Just sorry. We have to disperse it by the end of, I think, 2026. So we couldn't hold it in reserve? That's right, because then it come back to haunt us. Correct, we can't hold it in reserve. We have to make the payment. You'd have to pay it to this capital mutual thing is paid in full. And it was told us it would go to the, the capital by reserve, yeah, mutual aid, and to them. You see, back to us paid 2032, 2033. And that's the caveat I would hold for, that if we did move forward paying in full up front for all those years, that it would be without any increase over that time, dependent on what happens with other accounts. Correct. I think that that would just be a wise thing, because it's a huge investment and it's good investment, no doubt in my mind. Yeah, because, yeah. But we would have to figure out the accounting piece too. Correct. Money is going to be spent. Yeah, that's good. Can't put it in the wrong. I can't just, you know, no, create a category to do that. Wearing good hands there. Don't get the feds coming out. That's all. I know I'm coming back. I'm coming back. Yeah. Mr. Chair. Yes. I did just speak with Deputy Chief Alzworth. He has no qualms about that. He said just make it clear that that was the intention and what the guardrails were and he didn't expect capital fire would have any problems with that. Thank you. So I guess a motion on this to, for the capital fire requests for approval. I make the motion to accept the capital fire requests for approval from the town of Berlin in the amount of $65,693 for 10 years total to be kept at that cost, paid upfront through ARPA funds dependent on research that Vince will do on our behalf. Second. Any further discussion on this? Yeah. I guess just to be clear that there is an accounting regiment in place by capital fire. Capital fire mutual aid that will keep good track of the accounting of the amount of the check we give them. So moved. I would I would think would just be a accounting line in the their budget. Well, you're talking about yeah, we're not talking your fire department. We're talking about right, the mutual one. Oh, OK, yeah. So that's just so is there an organization with a bank account with accounting that that's what that's what we have to check. Well, that's why it'd be to their benefit that if we did that and one because if they put it just in any. Interest bearing account. They're going to have more money at the end of the period than waiting for our money every year. It's just yep. So. So we shouldn't have ever see any increase. I mean, you would think any other discussions on this? All those in favor. All right. Motion carries. Transit oriented development plan discussion. Yeah, real quickly, you'll see a letter of recommendation or support in there with us. And I just look for the board. You won't be getting that forward if they agree in the description of the what that transit oriented development is. It looks like in the package. They're they're getting a the Central lot regional planning commission. It's working with the Chitton County Regional Planning Commission on a on a grant that they've received for transient transit oriented development, basically. And I won't read all this to you. But they're looking for municipalities that might be interested in sharing some of that grant money. To link those systems or develop those type of transit transit struggle that word to me. The development master plans and such what you're looking for is again, it's the letter but statement of commitment from the municipal body to work collaboratively with the CBRPC consultant to develop by a T.O.D. master plan. A brief description of the anticipated T.O.D. planning summary of previous land use transportation, other planning efforts, the project manager and a rough estimate of staff hours and such. So the public support to put that all together. We've had a preliminary review by the CB Central Regional Planning Commission in regards to that. They're okay with that. And it's just looking for the boards of approval to move forward and participate in that grant process. I'm in favor of moving forward, but I noticed that the letter of commitment was due by January 20th, 2023. Is there an issue with that that we're over that? Yeah, I covered because I gave my draft prior to that date for their comments. Thank you. We just we need the formal approval or or not. And I can just say no, we're not we decided not to participate. I think we as a town in Berlin are at a good. This is a good opportunity for us. And Tom Badowski is very knowledgeable and great with the grants and has the background and the knowledge. I think this would be kind of all spent. So will there be a discussion of like prior to granted, sometimes grants require certain limitations on development. And this may receiving a grant in accordance with this memorandum of understanding may limit our ability to develop in ways that aren't recommended by the grant. Do you think that, you know, as a first and second glance of this, I'm not quite sure if I want I want to be sure that it opens doors that doesn't close doors for future development in Berlin in non. Yeah, I'm not aware of any any negative implications for the for the development in the town of this. That doesn't mean there isn't. I'm just not aware of any from what I've been involved with and seen so far, because it actually opens up some relaxes some requirements in some areas for some of this transit. And it sounds to me as if it opens up collaboration. The paragraph on the last page, page four, the CCRPC will procure consultants develop the T.O.D. master plans and bylaw development regulations. CCRPC will work with the CVRPC and each participating municipality to best match consultants with your local needs. Yes, and this is this is more towards the planning end of things or the communities that are involved with us to link and develop a strategy and a plan for this or the improved transit. Ideas and systems, including rail, rail is a big one on here. Rail, bus, bike, a lot of those things are never looked at in my understanding in this plan. Would there be any work prior to early 2024 based on what this outline? Not that I'm aware of. So the basic thrust of this is to make it walkable between communities and everything else. For public transit, yeah, improved, but it's always sensible, but, you know, the rail, they're looking at rail, commuter rail, and that's the best we can like an overall plan to connect communities. I got you. And there are two ways to do it. And that's what that's what I was getting at. One is to be more flexible to allow development in such a way that connects public transportation. And the second is to disallow things that don't fit into the good TOD type of development. So I'm very much for opening to allow that and very much against preventing non TOD development on private private land and private. And I think I think the cross of this is not more about implementation and building, but about the planning of where and when it comes to what really more about the. And motion on this and make the motion to to move forward with the transit oriented development plan as presented to us this evening. Your second second. Any other discussion on this? Hearing none, those in favor of motion carries legal license approval for shawls. Again, I'm rushing to interject here. We've got a couple more come in this event when it's put out for the rice chopper and for Jolly as well. Also, just to make a more aware of them, Joe, I am last year. It's the state has changed the rules. It's not just the licenses now. Well, it's the back as well. So you'll see those in the package as well. You'll see these. These are the new ones that come in actually today that I wanted to get in there. And these are all for Jolly, as mentioned. So and there's also tobacco substitute, which is the vaping. So those are these are all just renewals. There's one new one. And that's with Jolly for the big, big or what they call it trains tobacco alternative or substitute. That's the only new one in the package of the restaurant. Tobacco substitute endorsement. The rest are already renewals. And I didn't speak with the chief as far as the liquor stuff goes. And there's no issue with any. I make the motion to approve the tobacco license application renewal. The request is Brockton Corporation typist tobacco license. It's a renewal. And the location is Shah's in turn fight. A second. Any discussion? All those in favor? Why? Why? And what was the other one? The other one is we have the liquor and Jolly. By Sharma, the liquor license. Yeah.  I make the motion to approve the price chopper operating company of Vermont in second class light liquor license. It's a renewal location is price chopper. All second. Any further discussion? Those in favor? All right. And I think we did the tobacco license for Brockton Corporation, not the liquor. Seems you just put it on. I think there's a liquor license also. I did the liquor license. Did you do both? I didn't see both. I just thought you read tobacco. Tobacco, yeah. I think we didn't need the liquor. I had done it from the sheet, I thought, but maybe. I know it's a little confusing, all the different ones. So I moved it aside because I thought you said Brockton tobacco. So I'm going to make this motion. I move that we approve the liquor license or reapprove it if we just voted. And the tobacco license for the Brockton Corporation of the second class liquor license renewal. And it's for Shah's pain turnpike. Perfect. Second. All in favor? All right. All right. And then it was Jolly. That's here. We've got a stack of them here, huh? Yeah.  All right. Did you want to do it? I'll let you do that. All right. I make a motion to approve the liquor license for Jolly Associates, LLC, second class liquor license renewal. And that's for Jolly on River Street, Montpelier 1097 US 302 in Berlin. Second. Is there anything about back with Ellen and a tobacco for the same? Jolly, so it's LLC renewal. What's the other one? One more there. And new for River Street, Montpelier, the vaping products. All from Jolly. Yeah. I take it here. Motion is all included. It is. Second. Second. Any further discussion? Hearing none. Those in favor? Aye. Aye. And it looks as if on the price chopper, that was for both two as well, second class liquor license and tobacco. So I make a motion to approve both the second class liquor license for renewal and the tobacco license for renewal. Here a second? A second. Any other favor? Aye. Motion carries. I think we've got to go. Sure, Vance. I missed one item when we were talking about grants and things as well. I do have one more for grants, a solution for the Better Connections grant. And what we're doing, I should say get Tom the credit with Tom for the two grants. One of which the one we get. Potentially. If we get any. And again, even if we get it, doesn't mean we have to execute it. And this is a resolution that's required for the grants. And it's, let's you read the resolutions probably easier than me trying to do. And that one will need to be signed if the board approves it. And along with that is the information. And this is in, this is a combination of the WREC committee and the planning committee together. And these are a description. This is a description of it and how the funding breaks down for those. And the Berlin Trail Work Plan document that was prepared by them together as well. So one grant is, I mean, the total of the grant is $75,000 with a $7,500 match. And that's how it breaks down as well. I look forward to it. But we'll read that as a recommendation. I make the motion to approve the resolution for better connections grant. Whereas the municipality of the town of Berlin is applying for funding as provided for in the FY 2023 to 2024 budget and may receive an award of funds under said provisions. And whereas the agency of transportation and the agency of commerce and community development may offer a grant agreement to this municipality for said funding and whereas the municipality is maintaining its efforts to provide local funds for planning purposes or the municipality has voted at an annual or special meeting to provide local funds for planning purposes. Now therefore be it resolved one that the legislative body of this municipality enters into and agrees to the requirements and obligations of this grant program, including a commitment to provide a cash match of 10% of the project cost. Two, that the municipality planning commission recommends applying for said grant signed by Carla Nuiso. Number three, that Thomas J. Bedowski assistant town administrator is hereby designated as the local project manager, a person with the overall administrative responsibility for the better connections program activities related to the application and any subsequent grant agreement provisions past the sixth day of February 2023 by our legislative body of the slept board. Here a second? Certainly. Any discussion on this? Tell those in favor? Aye. Motion carries. Thank you. I'm going to stop the land. Thank you, Dennis. We have approval of licenses, permits, vouchers and applications. I make the motion to approve the payroll warrant 23-16 for payroll from January 15, 2023 to January 28, 2023, paid on February 1, 2023 in the amount of $64,885.50. Payable warrant 23G14 with checks 22652 to 22703 for payables in the amount of $157,941.65. The January 2023 general journal entries and the January reconciled bank statements for the general fund and sewer water divisions. Here a second? A second. Any discussion? All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Motion carries. Approval of January 16, 2023 minutes. I'm going to pass on this only because I haven't had a chance to read them in their entirety or just someone else has who wants to. That's got me that I'm not present here but I came in on that because you'll see in there that we had a discussion. So that'll need to be adjusted. Make a motion to approve the minutes from January 16, 2023 with the removal of the not and not present by David Sawyer. Any second? I'll second. Any discussion on this? If not, all those in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Motion carries. Roundtable. Float. I don't have anything to see. Here we go. I'm good. Thank you. Good. Carol? Nothing for me. Dave? I don't have anything. Bench? Surprise. A couple of things. Vote, options, taps. I have the opportunity to talk with Raylene from help me remember earlier. I did. Didn't I? Donna Berry. Mr. Green that does the podcast and such. Airdown. Airdown. Airdown. He does some marketing. Came back to me. She was kind of, she did a lot of marketing for Barry this year for their local options tax or their last voting period. Throughout the year worked with them, developed a program, did the marketing and it passed the first time. I've reached out to see if they'd be interested in working with us between now and the next voting period for something similar. If we could leverage what they did in Barry here in Berlin, they're willing to do that. What they did was they did certain campaigns each quarter and she gave me an estimated cost of about $700 per quarter to work with us to help roll it out and market that program similar to what they did in Barry. I told her I would ask the board tonight for some either approval to move forward in discussions with that and develop the plan to share with the board or not. So that's that's my request. Is that something that the board sees a benefit in to move forward with and use them to help market this and get the information out there? They're even willing to maybe have a board member come down, Joe, to talk about it. The benefits of the town and what are their podcasts and so on. You've got a face for radio, Joe, what can I say? Podcasts, not radio. So that's one of my roundtable items is that the second one is probably a little more simple. The next meeting on a Monday is the 20th, that's a holiday. Just like the board's okay if they agree to move it to the Tuesday, the 21st on that one if they think that's okay. And then we'll be going into an executive session for a contract discussion after the roundtable. So I have a question about the podcast. The marketing is the marketing on the aired out podcast. Is that specifically what it is? Well, no, they do some other things as well. And that's what I need to talk to her about. See what they did. Look at what they did for Barry. They did some surveys. They put out some information, a number of different ways, and I don't have all the details yet. But that's what I'm entertaining with the board's permission to see what that looked like and to see at that point if we want to bring her in for a full presentation of what we're going to get for the $700 a month after we do a preliminary look at it. See if it's worth moving forward, would there not? I would be in favor of seeing a package that they can provide us and how they would approach it, et cetera, so that we could review it. 700 a quarter, did you say? A quarter. 700 a quarter. Quarter. You just said 700 a month. Sorry, a quarter. Quarter. It's a quarter. That's the roughest until we have. I think there's nothing wrong with having her come in and presenting something. I mean, I'll watch some of his podcasts and they do focus a lot on Barry City. So I think that's why it probably works so well. Sure, that's part of the questions that I've asked though. So because I'm, you know, they're good with Barry City, but how do you envision getting the information out to Berlin residents in a similar manner, right? Those are the things that need to be discussed with her to see what that plan looks like. Again, if the board doesn't think it's worthwhile, then it stops here. If they do, then I will work with her over the next couple of weeks to have something ready to bring back to the board to the next meeting since we can move forward maybe after town meeting on it if it's worthwhile. You know, links to those podcasts can be easily put on websites. He's got a good listener base to us. We're on anyways because of his, you know, with Froggy and all that, all the years he's spent doing that. So he's got a good listener base, central alarm. Anything else, Ben, sir? That's, I'll be quiet for a few more minutes. I'm fine with February 21st as well, but I don't know that it works for everyone. It's better for me. I may or may not have skipped the meeting on the 20th to go to my son's basketball game. Okay, the motion is going to a negative session. So moved. Okay. It's called a favor. Bye.