Good evening. Good morning. Good afternoon. Wherever you are joining us from and I'm going to read out a small passage today before we get started It is from the book Kvelistan and the chapter is chapter 19 and it goes like this Every morning I wake up to a new India a country where you can open the Times of India on the morning of 17th May 2019 and see a gay couple on the front page Advertising the paper's out-and-proud classified section inside an announcement reads as we approach our 15th year together We want to thank our families and friends straight and gay for being by our side and making us feel like a normal couple Signed dr. Prasad Dandekar oncologist and Shreepad Ranade leadership coach and India in which you can be browsing through Vogue's November 2019 issue at the dentist and see duty chand India's first out lesbian athlete featured on the cover And India in which the constable Lalitha Salway can rejoin the police force in Maharashtra as Lalith Salway After completing his sex reassignment surgery with the support of the state's chief minister And India in which Swati Vidhan Varwa is appointed as the first transgender local judge And India in which Satya Sri Sharmila becomes the first transgender lawyer To register with the bar council of Tamil Nadu and Puducherry and Indian in which M. Monisha becomes the first trans person to be appointed to a state secretary And India in which the state of West Bengal constitutes a trans development board with Manubhi Bandhupadhyay The first transgender principal of a college as the vice chairman With that I just want to say welcome to Hi, and my guest today is none other than Parmesh Sani Parmesh, you know, it's I always think that it's best that the person introduces Himself or herself and of course I could sort of read it out From the cover of your book. He's the founder of award-winning gold rager India culture club in Mumbai which sparks conversations about the changing face of contemporary India You know, you've been part of several places. You hold an MS in comparative media studies from MIT You've been a dead senior fellow a Yale world fellow and a world economic forum for young global leader My god, I'm okay. I'm going to stop reading that because it's giving me a serious inferiority complex And I just want to congratulate you for this fabulous book that you've written Guys, if you haven't read it And you may have read many books, but I just want to let you know This book is going to certainly no matter how much, you know, we'll teach you some so many things Which is going to leave you stunned and surprised and that there is a different planet which you are not aware of So guaranteed Recommend reading check it out Thank you But uh, thank you Yeah, it's just so amazing. How do you introduce yourself? Um, I introduce myself as someone who is A dot connector. I like to connect the dots between things Um, I introduce myself as someone who has lived in the hyphen for many years So theory and practice academia creativity and business um, and in fact You know after reading your book Um, which I absolutely love so much. I introduce myself as a dreamer I think, uh someone like me Who has been trained in the humanities? Who has grown up? You know with the arts and the humanities, but who's trying to make a difference in the business world Um, and trying to talk about things like LGBTQ inclusion So yeah, I would probably introduce myself as a dreamer who wants to make a better world And thank you for liking queeristan. I must say There are so many coincidences both our books came out in september 2020 with the same publisher and um on reading dreamers and unicorns I realized that we both want to create a much better post pandemic tomorrow uh In terms of well, I'm talking about LGBTQ inclusion. You really spoken about how leadership can step up and uh shift culture in general For organizations. So just very very happy to be here. I've been a fan of you since we were on stage So many years ago at the shrm conference where you anchored That wonderful session on LGBTQ inclusion with Lakshmi Um, and me I remember so clearly How warm and you were full of empathy at that moment and this was many years ago when You know before the section 377 judge. Yes. Yes Yeah, it's just quite incredible. Uh, um Yes, so Uh, you know, I I just one sec. I think there's some connection problem that I'm having Just one sec. Sure. Yeah So, all right, hopefully I'm back at least the uh, yeah, okay. All right Yeah, um, so yes, uh, you know, I think we connected back. That was probably 2015 when we connected for the shirm conference and Um, that's when I met you and Lakshmi.  I think certainly I think Um Well, I think in our in our country and in our society in the world at large um You in terms of if you look at gender, I mean women have it tougher than men everywhere in the world for sure But in our country as well, there are Um, if you are queer, it is very very difficult.  I would say that gay men have it easier when compared to lesbian Bisexual or trans for sure and intersex people are there's so much ignorance about what it means to be intersex And intersex people tend to be much ignored. So I think unfortunately there is a hierarchy of even within minorities of you know, which is Um, which are more advantaged and which are less advantaged and if you look at the inclusion space in general uh, for example, which is you know a space that I've Come to work in over the past few years um talking about You know women's inclusion is easier than talking about lgbtq inclusion Talking about inclusion and perhaps people with disabilities Including pwd within the workforce might be easier than talking about things like caste Um region based or religion based inclusion. So I think you know, there are some things and then we're not even Talking about intersectionality here. What if someone happens to be? um lesbian a woman and muslim for example in the workplace, right? So then you have various levels of marginalization and you know this So I think for sure to answer your question. Yeah, there are um, you know privilege comes in all shapes and sizes And certainly there are people who are more privileged than others even within uh minority spaces for sure Um, uh, you know, when you look at this, I mean, that's that's actually a phenomenal way of looking at it and I'm Uh, thinking about you know, uh, yeah, it's true that perhaps Even within the marginalized, there are people who have it better than others and yes, I mean there is uh um, unfortunately that hierarchy even in marginalization I wanted to really look at that, uh, you know, uh whole question Uh, when you think about uh people with disability, I can understand that, you know, when the person comes into the workforce Uh, there's a need to build awareness and you know, there's a need to actually have people Understand that and talk about that Now when it comes to sexuality Why shouldn't the workplace really be concerned about sexuality because it's something that uh, you know We leave behind at home and then we come into the workplace and uh, suddenly, you know, you have Uh, you're this whole notion that lgbtq People are looking at inclusion. Um, and to me You know, I don't understand why should the workplace be uh talking about it So abhijit the thing is We don't leave our sexuality at home and that's the thing we all Are a composite of all the various parts of us that make us And you've written about this in your book as well about how workplaces need to understand this as well, right? So I mean your book is about the emotional workplace. Your book is about And a workplace with empathy Sorry And I've been quite sick. Sorry. I might cough a bit for all those listening It's not coveted And don't worry. I've been like measuring my oximeter literally every hour Oh But yeah, I just want to say thanks today. You know, you're running hundred and two temperature and you still Decided join in uh, you know, I just want to say Yeah, I wanted you to I wanted you to think I was hot but not this way. I mean literally today. I'm like really like You're talking to a hot person Yeah So right, I think workplaces are places which empower us to flourish So we all bring ourselves Straight people bring their heterosexuality to the workplace as well and you work that's really different How because So when you were working at Bipro, for example, wouldn't you have conversations Over lunch with your colleagues where you would say, you know today My wife did this wouldn't you hear them talk about today? Today my child did this now They are bringing the heterosexuality to work in that case, right But why is it that when a queer person? Um says my partner did this or today I went if you're lesbian I went somewhere with my girlfriend or today it's this why is then Why is it that when queer people bring themselves to work? It's considered bringing your sexuality to work, but when straight people do it all the time It's considered normal. So I think because we grew up in a heteronormative world um and because heterosexual people do this almost without thinking That right the world has been designed created certainly our workplaces have been Imagined as heteronormative workplaces Which is why everything from the conversations we have to the policies in so many places to the practices of sending um invitations To I'm sure if you would get an invitation for your partner I mean some years ago or not now people would say mr. And mrs. Abhijeep Agri which I think is problematic on many levels But I think you know the way people people imagine heteronormativity and straight people bring sexuality into the workplace all the time So I think it's not a question of queer people not bringing it's a question of straight people recognizing that we all bring our All ourselves to work. So the question for workplaces should be how can we create? Inclusive workplaces where everyone can bring themselves to work and not just some people because the labor The emotional cost of not bringing yourself to work Right emotional cost of say six to ten percent of the population, which is what lgbtq people are Hiding certain parts of ourselves while about 90 percent of population is not hiding um are quite terrible, right? There's a cost it's it's a productivity cost it's uh I mean talent will gravitate to organizations which are more inclusive in this case So I mean, there's the the the cost of not creating these environments is quite terrible on various parameters. Um, so so yeah I hope that makes sense to everyone who's listening All right, so, you know, we have a bunch of people who are sort of responding and you can see some of those comments, uh, you know and Here, someone says that queeristan is a must Sort of read and everyone's uh, you know thing elitism is part of any group says another user Shanwish says clearly I think I could sit and listen to parmesh speaking for days on end. Thanks for saying what most of us can't um Pratish says that you know, I so agree we try when we bring our full selves to work Uh You know and here is someone who says to sound like Freud sex is a common denominator in human biases So yes, I mean there are lots and lots of uh people who are listening in And you know, I I'm asking you some of these questions parmesh because I would really like to Um leverage your understanding you worked in the space Um as a member who sort of really made this minority invisible minority if you will You make the invisible minority visible Um, is it easier to do if you are part of the minority or is it better that You do it when you are part of the majority who finds it easier and who should be initiating this change Thanks, I think that's a great question. I think For change to actually happen um I mean, I think everyone who can should speak up for change But with lgbtq or other kinds of minorities. I think it's very very important That the straight majority in this case um allies for example um Really really really stand up Speak up for and support queer rights because as I said earlier um The burden on queer people first of all many most queer people are not are not out most queer people are uh Uh, you know Go through very very difficult times to accept themselves in often very very challenging circumstances whether while growing up um in workplaces So on so then very you know To have that burden key we also now have to like fight for our rights and so on I think many queer people do Which is why a lot of the changes that have come place in our country over the past 30 40 years would not have happened without queer people standing up for ourselves But I think it's very very important for our straight allies also to recognize that it is as much Their responsibility as well.  What's the business benefit to uh, go great So the I mean the case for inclusion is very clear whether it's for godridge of any organization, right? I mean first of all, it's just a It's a decent thing to do. We should all treat everyone equally irrespective of These minor things like who some of us choose to love and who some of us don't But even besides that it's very clear that being inclusive has great monetary advantages The economic case is very clear. It's a five trillion dollar economy Globally, it's a 200 billion dollar economy in India and there's enough data that shows that being inclusive Really really helps make you more money There's enough data from deloitte and so many others that says that making being inclusive creating an environment In which you are inclusive Enables you to be eight times more innovative than other organizations. We're talking about eight x returns There's enough data that says that being inclusive and speaking up about it Um, really helps you connect and this is something that you talk about as well in your book Saying that you know, you really have to connect to that next generation of young people who are going to come on board um And whose loyalty we cannot take for granted So being inclusive really really enables you to connect with your young Employees with your future customers by telling them that you care about the same thing that they connect about So it helps attract much better talent Um, and of course from a reputation perspective. So whichever way you look at it I mean be use the make sense and we found that at woodrit, right because we hire from campus to campus Um, we've been hiring for over 10 years whichever college campus we go to The one thing that students come to us and tell us about is we're so glad that you're standing up and speaking up for LGBTQ rights Queer students as well as straight students queer employees as well as straight employees So I think that's right. So I think um So the onus is on everyone the onus is on allies, which is why I'm glad that you're doing this Right, you could have chosen to have yet another straight person on your podcast But you chose to create this space to call a queer Out and proud person to talk about things that are that matter to me. So Change has only happened over the years because of queer people fighting for our rights, but also allies if you look Um, so many of the judges who've given judgments over the past year So many of the lawyers who have fought for LGBT rights in our country have been straight So many allies in so many places have been Have been straight. So I think change comes about when people work together Yeah, um, you know when you The way you explain it, you know, this is one of the things that uh, I of course You're in needless to say I am asking you some of the questions Which I have also written about in my book that it does make complete sense and being able to understand Um, emotions. I think uh, you know, this is one of the things that Um, I I believe is going to be the next big business opportunity So in dreamers in unicorns I talk about the fact that is one of the big shifts that we will see you know, it's because we Long since now we've we should stop talking about the fact that work is only logic and data and all of that I mean your insights don't come from data alone You need to observe you need to look at the human connections. You need to ask why are they doing what they are doing So, you know, I think there are a million cases. So yes, of course, I mean I in some senses I asked a bunch of my friends who are Is you know who have reservations about why queer people should be Sort of encourage or brought into the workplace and brought at par with any other opportunity When I asked them, what would you say that? You know, so they said that you must speak up for us and ask this question So my first set of questions is really I'm representing them and I hope I was able to get the answer So if you're you know watching me, uh, I hope I asked those questions in the exact tone and manner You asked me to so I was told that somebody should really ask This guy, why should we be talking about this? I mean You know, have you ever seen a straight man talking about your sexuality in the workplace? I mean To all those people if the world was such That 90 of the world was was queer And 10 of the world was straight you would be asking these questions if you was if you were a straight minority Yeah, I think so because One of my beliefs is Um You know, I think one of the pieces I believe is that when you look at the minority, uh, you know, I think The majority actually has to have uh the first step even though you said that yeah, it's both together But I believe that uh, you do need The allies first in in the entire thing I think you need to have the allies in the majority who drive that change. And so that's my Hypothesis, but I would love to know from you that If you were to sort of really take up this whole thing of talking about how do you make a workplace inclusive? What really happens when a workplace becomes inclusive? So I'm going to sort of go to that and I know that in your book you've done five different things that People can do which I thought was absolutely fantastic. And by the way, what I liked about your book permission I didn't get a chance to tell you this um, you know, as I was reading the book I kind of thought that So what is it? I mean, because you know, the language is so casual I am just intrigued as to how People are going to classify this book. Is it because you know, you're almost right with that babaya hindi thrown in You know, uh, and and it's a very bollywood driven and your obsession with bollywood very clearly shows you know, so What went into your mind when you decided to use this genre of writing because you're making things very difficult for the For the publishing company to decide Is this fiction? Is it nonfiction? Is it a biography? Is it? And you know, there's so much of deep research and kudos to you for doing that But what I liked is, you know, I believe one of the ways in which you drive social change Which you really lived up to and which is why I kind of think that this is such a powerful even book that You know, people need to sort of really figure out Read it from the point of view of how do you use? Writing to create opportunities and drive social change. So I think that's one of the things I really liked about your book, by the way So great stuff very very good um To the question that I wanted to go through um You know, when you look at uh, when you look at the five things that you think Companies could be doing. What would those be? You know, just let's have an overview and then we can talk about Some of them because I don't know whether we'll have I'd rather take one or two of the easiest things to do and then sort of Talk about how can uh, people make the change I want to do two things in the workplace and in their homes. So let's just do both together. I think it'll be great um, so Let's get going Thanks, but just before that, um Thank you and the book The book was written with great intent in that manner Because the book is not just about queerness. It's also to clear the idea and it's I use queer as a verb as a performative verb because when you Queer something you kind of Uh show people different ways of being right queerness is about multiple possibilities queerness is about Giving a different way of viewing the world. So I wrote the book with great deliberate intent about mixing the very very personal Personal memoir kind of narratives With data and research and it's not that different from dreamers and unicorns because I remember There are passages in your book, right where you walk you are at ximd You're walking through the campus You are seeing a new building which has replaced an old building and it kind of makes you think about How changes changes inevitable, but when it happens, there's always wistfulness So, I mean, I think we both try to do similar stuff Then I've gone slightly overboard is in the bollywood and in the language and in the song and dance So I think it's very important to write a book and I think in today's world Um, when we are writing, they're not just competing with other books and authors. They're competing with instagram They're competing with netflix. So I think a writing has to be interesting. We have to hook people and we have to use stories we have to Um, in a sense really judge it up a bit so that our readers remain engrossed Um, so that's why I wrote the book in a particular way. I wanted to create a very very fun business book Because business people are not boring business people Um, as you said, I mean business people have homes business people do work business people also want to be Told stuff, but I think in an entertaining manner. So that's why, um, I wrote the book in that particular way I'm so glad you liked it and it's resonant So, um, there are multiple things that people can do to create inclusive spaces If there's one overarching formula, I would tell everyone who's listening is walk the talk Because in today's world, you cannot be inauthentic So I give a whole comprehensive approach, which is everything from changing your policies Um, and arrange your policies that you can change specifically for lgbtq inclusion Sorry to create to creating Can you hear? Hello Is there a lag? Yeah, no, I mean, I think I lost you in between Yeah, there is a bit of a lag and and I think I lost you in between But yes, what you what I hear you say is that, you know Because it's a business book It doesn't have to be boring and because it is very well researched like your book clearly is got tons of judgments references Um, you know, it almost I expect it to become quite like a reference book You know when somebody's talking about social change, uh, this just becomes a really powerful reference book for me That's what it was But I also found it eminently readable and it's fun. I laughed in so many places and so it was fun to sort of look at that um, you know when you uh, when you think about When you think about driving change What is the first place to begin? Should it be home or shouldn't be in the workplace? and why? So I think um For us who work in organizations. I think if you can start I mean of course you should begin change at home But I think the way our homes Are framed Our homes the way we have grown up in our homes We don't have these conversations in our homes Like when I grew up my parents never asked me what makes you happy What is love? What is your favorite color? They just told me study and get good maths And I think uh, unfortunately a lot of us grow up in homes like this So I think while homes are places where these things must begin I think in our context the workplace becomes more important because by the time that employee reaches the workplace The workplace can become that safe hardware the workplace can become that space where the organization can tell their employee Yes, you spent your whole life running giving exams trying to get in But now you are here So let us create the conditions for you to flourish and in my experience when you create these conditions in the workplace People take it back home with them People are more receptive to saying okay if Wipro or Goodridge or whoever is offering same-sex partnership benefits is offering insurance Is the leadership is talking up about lgbtq rights? It is hiring more and more queer people These conversations are easier to have back home when you can say guess what mom dad? You know what my company is doing or guess what cha cha g or guess what this or guess what right? So I think workplaces become particularly important in in our In our context.  You're kind of sorted I think in india people enter the workplace very confused and closeted because they've not had that Time space or attention to talk about these things. So I think in our context. It's vital that we create inclusive workplaces For our queer employees to you know to accept themselves for them to Flourish And so that they can you know, they can become better at themselves But they can also help your help the workplace to flourish. Yeah, and then they take it back home Yeah, and and what is the first? You know, what is the first conversation? A leader can have in the workplace. Let's imagine that this is Day one where you know people are deciding to do something about inclusion And they are deciding to sort of make it queer inclusive place In which case, you know, what is the first thing they should be looking at? Is it policies or is it having a conversation? so I think um, it's a combination of having best in class policies accompanied by Really really really strong leadership signaling from the top Because indian companies are very hierarchical If the md ceo Senior leaders indicate that this is something that we are committed to people tend to follow So I think it's a combination of strong policies very very committed leadership signaling And you know actually walking the talk, which means not just having policies, but then leaving that not hiring queer people Or supporting queer causes or standing up for queer rights, right? So I think there's not just one thing that's why I think if you are committing to this You have to commit that it's going to be a comprehensive approach We have to so the first thing that anyone can do is actually set aside a budget for it So I think it is that you can do realize that inclusion is a journey that you will go on it will take money Just as you set aside a budget for marketing just as you set aside a budget for finance I mean the second thing that you can do is recognize that it's not something that belongs only to HR most companies Put inclusion inside HR for convenience But if you really want to think about inclusion comprehensively, it should be it should come directly from the managing director and ceo Because the benefits of inclusion are in HR and marketing and product and sales and everything, right? Sure Say that we are committed to it comprehensively So of course we will change our policies, but what is the use of good policies if our employees don't know about it? So we have to invest in sensitization and communication What is the use of policies and communication if we are not hiring the queer people? So we have to actively hire queer people What is the use of all of this if we are not indicating to the world that this is something that matters to us?  Because at the campus, like you just said a little while back that a lot of people They haven't had that conversation With, you know, the families back home and if they are sort of getting hired Um, you know, would they feel comfortable if you sort of do you spell it out and say we actively are looking for that? Is that something that you say? What is the right way to go about? Solving for that particular problem So there are multiple ways, you know, when I graduated from MIT and I was being recruited first in America It was really good that companies were so MIT has an ngbtq association And all the top companies been bcg whatever would come to us They would reach out to the lgbtq association and they would do special like Mixers or cocktails for us and they would say we're reaching out to you because we want you to come and work with us We want to assure you that We have a queer inclusive, um atmosphere So over the past Five years what's been amazing is in many of at least the top b schools in our country There are lgbtq associations Um, so I think it's very very if you're a company that's interested reach out to these lgbtq associations and come and Commit, uh, to them that this is something that you want to go on But I think a more practical way abhijit would be to just Indicate in all your posts in all your communication either with the small asterisks or when you are going to campus You know the way godrej does it is I go and recruit often And as part of the thing I just know I just casually say I happen to be gay myself and I really enjoy working at godrej So Whoever, you know, it doesn't matter if you're queer or straight We commit that we will treat everyone equally. So I think If you indicate in your communication in your recruitment that you are an organization which is going on an inclusion journey uh Whether someone is out not out uh They will at least have that confidence that as an organization you are committed to this So then they are more likely to apply to you Uh and to come on the journey. So I don't think we should as organizations Force people to come out. I think coming out, you know, whether you're a student or an employee is everyone who has their own Journey or when they feel comfortable when they feel safe but we can signal to our employees Present or potential that if you know We are trying very hard to be the kind of place that if you know, you have if you are queer Or whenever you want to come out It will be a safe hardware for you And that's what a good organization can you can signal explicitly Or you can signal implicitly, but I think that signaling is important Yeah, um, you you have Sharma shows asked a fabulous question. I'm going to put it up once again Her question is that, you know, you must have Come across bigots in your journey as well. And how did you handle difficult conversations? Especially If there is a hierarchy involved, you know How do you manage that? Because that I'm sure was never easy. So how do you do that? So it's been very very hard. You're right. I've come across so many bigots um, and At least with me My approach has changed over the years When I was I'm 45 now when I was younger. I would be very agitated. I would get very angry um, I would um Either lash out or I would try and you know But whatever I'm just saying over the years. I've kind of maybe it's I'm becoming older Um Now what I do is I actually, uh Try and Uh operate from the point that maybe this person is not a bigot Maybe this person is just uninformed so I just I approach that person with a lot of kindness And I approach and it's not easy when someone is making bigger things. I say look, uh, you've just said this I hope you understand that you know The reality is blah blah blah I'm assuming that you're coming from a position of being uninformed. Let me share with you what the actual context is And this is something that I've learned over the years. It's a process of calling in so rather than calling out and I heard this at one of the webinars I've done right when you call out something which is very important Like use when you call out for example, if you made some if you make a if you say something which might be problematic I can say abhijit. That was terrible Blah blah blah or I can say abhijit. Maybe you didn't know that this was terrible. Let me tell you what the right thing is Would you like to be? so over the years that Even though it's harder. It takes a lot more out of me. I've practiced more and more. How can you call in because the truth is We need More and more people who understand and who become allies So that we can all together create a better one. So I just try and do it more productively. Although it's it's not easy. I can do Yeah, because you know in some sense it is the difference between a push model versus a pull model You know when you so invite people in and say that maybe you know, you are not aware but when you use a term like this It's very hurtful to me and as you say that that sort of just makes it easier for the person to A respond back with empathy and I think that's really powerful And I also think that you know when you look at Hadid also mentioned that you know when you The way that you signal something Can either create an ally who sort of just says oh my god I mean, you know that would have been this or It would have been, you know, it just hardens the stance and you say that Uh, you know, it just sort of makes more enemies out of the entire thing and doesn't help the social change So yes, I mean as as I'd say is that you know calling in versus calling out very well said so You know when you look at When you look at this whole journey that you've done you you are still I don't think it is done because it's still work in progress I see it like that What is the is there a end goal that uh, you know We are looking towards and you know Is that something where do you see this going eventually and what does that accomplish? you know, what is the Final closing scene of the movie if I were to use your bollywood metaphor No, you you're just so fond of bollywood. So am I so which is why I guess it sort of instantly related to this style of writing But what would you say? So personally I would very much I would like All the top 500 companies in India To have lgbtq inclusive policies and practices This is my personal goal. I'm working with as many as I can right now in any capacity To help push for change because I really believe that there are multiple levers to create social change And businesses the corporate world are very much is very is a very very powerful So I think I would really like to create Help empower more and more companies You know create conducive workplaces so that more queer people are hired more queer people flourish More queer people are empowered and we create a better society But this is just my personal thing for the business world. I think for our country at large It's very clear that there are going there are many more legal changes that are needed For example, we need an anti-discrimination bill. We don't have any anti-discrimination laws in our country The trans act that came out recently really needs to be modified to To really reflect the aspirations and needs of our trans community And I think while section 377 went away, which decriminalized us We are long away from equality So I think whether it's managed equality or other kinds We certainly need that right because I'm a tax-paying honest patriotic citizen of my country I find it extremely unfair why I should have lesser rights than other people Simply because of a minor detail Of who I choose to love. I think it's really really unfair So what I would like to see is also legal change that puts me and my LGBT community on par with everyone So I would like to see a society in which we all have the same legal rights Which are our rights that our constitution anyway gives us I would like to see our society to reflect that in the law I think workplaces can be an important Lever in that which is why I do the work I do But also others I would like to see Families not pressurizing their queer kids to either act differently Or to marry people of that who their parents say even though so many families know very well that the children are queer They force them into marriages which leads to terrible consequences So I would like to see a better society in which queer people are Are honored are Are validated are Accepted so the big I mean that happy ending is when we have an indian which All of our six to ten percent LGBTQ people Are safe and accepted at homes in schools and colleges and workplaces And it's not impossible because if you see other parts of the world In 40 or 50 years in one generation countries have made this change So it's not And I also think that you know the way you described it actually the You know the equivalent of the workplace, you know where you talked about creating a policy But also driving the communication and having role models I sort of see the parallel happening also at a country level that you need the law You also need to have uh, you know the role models and also in many ways to You know create forums for dialogue because effectively the first step in my view Of any social changes really to create dialogue and then build it from there Whatever is the change that and And especially when it comes to I think of The many fights that societies go through in every, uh, you know generation if you go through um, you know, there is always a scenario in which You are a minority and there is always a scenario in which you are a majority Yeah, all of us are in some senses whether it's you know, so there's an equal amount of thing. Let's say pertaining to People who speak in a certain way. Yeah, and we are we are a strange country where When if you speak English poorly, you know, people feel embarrassed But when you speak Hindi or your, you know, mother tongue poorly or you say, I don't know how to read or write that We say it with great pride So I think there are many places where You know, the majority minority combination actually is a great perspective to have through Um, uh, Nehra Prabhu actually has another interesting suggestion that it should be built into all the, uh, you know management development programs leadership development perspective because How do you become more inclusive in your language and your policies and in all the Changes that you are doing Because today one of the big differences as I see in the role of the leader Is that leaders are actually working as part of an ecosystem? So so that I think is the big deal. Would you would you say so that is it part of a Change to drive change the ecosystem not just you know, the the pond where you are swimming I think completely and I think if other b-schools All add programs on diversity and inclusion it's going to make a big difference Um, so I think that's a great. I think uh, and if I hope people from different b-schools are listening If you can just add a module on dni Why it's important the dni ecosystem in our country the benefits of it and how you can be a change agent Um, I think it's going to make a big big big difference. I think in in I think sorry it would be uh Really remiss if management students today Are not learning about sustainability are not learning about inclusion. I'm not learning about empathy Uh, because to me like having more empathy communicating better understanding the power of inclusion Recognizing as you said that we're all connected in this ecosystem Planet people everything. Yeah, so if our if our educational institutions Can you know from the big big train people about this? It's going to be huge. So I think it's a great opportunity for business schools Uh, like so many in other parts of the world are already doing Um, I think it's a great opportunity for Indian business schools to make sure that this is absolutely It's a compulsory module that everyone needs to actually, uh, you know take and and I also think that you know one of the most powerful ways in which uh Any kind of awareness building happens, you know, so Wherever there is inequality and and in law there are many scenarios.  We would like to sort of be heard We don't want our voices to be shut out And yet with the moment we get into the majority Sometimes unknowingly and I'm not saying that you know, everyone's doing it because of that. It's also that Just building that sensitivity. I think is a very important way in which You build a world where It is okay to have a conversation about something which you have a bias against, you know, and it could be anything It could be bias against let us say um, a certain kind of a educational qualification Even now I know that there are plenty of organizations where They use terms like this is a tier one college. This is a tier two college and you know, it's I think it's ridiculous because There are enough examples and more of You know, the world having leaders who've come from zero tier colleges, you know, they haven't even gone to colleges and you know, whether it is Leaders of countries or whether it is You know leaders of organizations So there is no reason for us to hold on to these Fairly archaic notions, you know, where did you go to college and that sort of In your case, of course, you take all the boxes because you sort of you've got a Ted fellowship and this and that Does that make things easier for you or does it make it more difficult? um, I think in my case, um I've been incredibly privileged So I recognize that my going to a bunch of places um, is not necessarily an indication of some smartness or whatever but just, um, structural Inequality is that made me grab opportunities in a way that perhaps others could not So I recognize that very very well Have I been able to use these networks? to push for change, certainly um If I hadn't gone to a place like MIT I doubt that companies like mahadra or gold rich would have considered hiring me even though I might have been very very smart or presented myself unfortunately, um These are the filters that many companies look for But I've become extremely conscious of of this privilege and over the years. I've tried like you just said to actually Use my platforms to talk about the fact that you know, this is not fair and you really need to be creating a better uh way of doing things but Have these spaces helped me undoubted? uh Have I used the platforms myself to and in queristan I talk about This phrase called jugal resistance Which talks about infiltrating the system Almost like a sleeper cell and like try and create change from within So have I used The network to infiltrate and try and create a better world certainly And that is my plea to everyone out there. Um, don't think that to be a change maker You only need to be Fighting in the courts or to be an activist Uh, you know protesting for very very important issues um Or to be in the government where you control policies You can be a change maker being in the corporate world sitting where you are Recognizing that the world is full of structural inequality and that you can have a role however small it might be To help create a better world So use your power use your privilege use your position if you feel you have privilege You must also use it to create a better world for those who don't Uh, I mean, that's what I constantly try and do and I hope that people who are listening do the same because that's all the only way We're going to get to a more equal world uh In some sense, uh, you know, even the uh conversation like this It's just a small attempt at uh, sort of bringing some of these conversations to a larger audience Uh, because that's the only way, you know, because for me, you know One of the things that you said was so powerful which is We assume good intent and if you do that you automatically start to say that okay, maybe you didn't Think about it like that and sometimes to ask the question You know which which is bothering you you should ask the question um So I got a uh text message which Wanted me to ask Why do you write he slash him next to your name? What is that? So great. Yeah, so I think uh in today's world more and more people are sharing their pronouns So for me Sorry, he him are my pronouns and a lot of people choose to share their gender identity with um others So someone might choose to say she or her many people who are non-binary which means uh That they don't want to They don't want to place themselves in in either end of the spectrum might use they them Um, the hindi equivalent would be up Like they them is So I use this to indicate my pronouns and all over the world many people are using this To share with others how they want to be addressed So that if someone wants to address us they address us by um the gender that we prefer Um, so that's why I use he him And it's not just queer people everyone straight people are also using this Um, just indicate to the world that this is these are my pronouns. This is the gender that I want to That I would like to be addressed as So it's just something which is becoming more and more prevalent all over the world Um, and this is just an indication of that. But thank you for asking And and also I think it is a little bit like, um, uh, you know What I saw linkedin doing I was linkedin now allows you to, uh, you know, do a small recording of the way you like your name to be Uh pronounced, you know, so uh, some people who have the identical spelling as me Uh might say, uh, obijit, you know, like the Bengali Translation in my mother tongue would be obijit, but I prefer to be called avijit, you know, and uh Because if you don't say that somebody might be mispronouncing it as Abijit, you know, which used to happen in some places where I've lived and worked. So, uh, Did you also go through that? You know, yeah I mean, at least in America or whatever that parmesh is hard It's more par parmesh or like I think it's the mesh that people get So people sort of make a short film called mesh. Yeah The mesh is harder for people Um, so I think I mean that's the thing right if we just And it's the most basic form of respect. I mean if you just share with people, this is how I like to be called Um, not rocket science. I'm and you know, I think even for those listening. I think it's very important that we understand that Abijit, then we are talking about this because in a sense Also being inclusive is very much part of our Indian culture And I write this all the time. I think it's important So many people also tell me That you're talking about this for example pronouns lgbtq. These are all like western concepts And I have to remind them that actually no These are deeply local and Indian concepts. In fact, inclusion is an Indian concept that then went to the world And we are now in a sense talking about it now Because we had so many years of british rule And the colonial project was also very much at making us feel uh Conscious of criminalizing some of the most beautiful things that we had So Yeah, so lgbtq Individuals and acts were criminalized by the british the same way as they created a criminal tribes act Because the british just criminalized anything that they did not know or understand Whereas we for years have been inclusive. So inclusion is a very Fundamentally indian or subcontinental contract and we have been having it for years in our part of the world We include and respect everyone. We call people what they want to be called So these are our deeply fundamentally indian concepts that we now need to be You know And if you look at the You know diversity of india in terms of whether everything from you know, the sari is worn in so many different ways There are some 70 ways in which people make tea, you know chai, which is so Um, uh, you know integral to our life or you're any dish that you think of a biryani I mean think of the number of variations of biryani that you have I mean there are some names which are given but there are many many variations So we are a very diverse country and I think that's the power that we should be celebrating Also in the language, I mean hindi you would say Aap or tum depending on what the person is comfortable with saying You know tumi or apni as all of that. So, um You know permission I just want to end we are coming up to the hour and I just want to say that In 2015, you know when I first met you and we spoke about Inclusion in the sham, you know conference I was actually struck by two things one. I think I was struck by the By the courage of sham to bring lakshmi and you to the stage and sort of Have that conversation. I don't remember any other conference where It has been brought out in that degree of comfort and it was sort of I I felt very privileged that you know, I got a chance to sort of be there on stage and sort of talk about it But I also thought that it gave me an opportunity to get to know you and You know It's brilliant that both the books have happened at the same time. So I think there is a little bit of that connection there I want to thank you on behalf of uh, you know the the whole Listeners group and you know everyone and I also want to sort of say that You know, I think when you think about The little things that you mentioned it was very very enlightening for me And I hope I've been able to sort of also represent the questions that have come to me from all of you Thank you very much everyone who's shared the questions everyone was written in and your encouragement and the comments measures request you to share the You know this particular Recording with your friends and hopefully it should Provide that conversation. There's some portions of this. Uh, you know because of the spotty internet connection It's something that I grapple with every time there have been times when I've done this You know in one of the places where I was speaking power went off And so, you know one of the So I was speaking like it was like some very fancy lighting It was just a laptop light which was seeing it through But at the end of the day, I also want to say that All of us make a far more inclusive society And this is the book that I just think it's required reading. Oh gosh. Thank you. No, you don't have to do that But thank you so very much. I just love the book. So do read it. And I think I'm going to Really look forward to continuing this conversation online as well You know with everybody who's there. Thanks a million for being there permission Good luck with your journey and


We've got Rowena coming in from the New School of Fundraising who's going to be talking about maximizing impact with limited resources, the new reality of demonstrating value. So, hi everyone. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. And yes, I am the founder lead instructor of the New School of Fundraising, which is a virtual fundraising school, which helps anyone in Canada to raise money. I was the marketing person's worst nightmare when she said, what is your audience? And I said, anybody who wants to raise money, that's who we help. So thank you for helping, for letting me be here. This is really exciting for me. So, the new reality of fundraising, where do we say post-pandemic now? We are, I don't want to jinx us, but heading into potentially recession, some tough times. And what we hear across the board is we have to do more with less. There's more need than ever before. Where do we go from that? My school is about, let's turn everything on its head. Let's rethink it. Let's not just go back to what we were doing before. Let's think about this. And a big one is how we demonstrate impact. So, I'd love to hear, what does impact mean to you? Jump into the chat. One word. When I say impact, what does that mean to you? What is impactful to you? Positive change, meaningful change, improving people's lives, outcomes. Oh, you guys, really good. It has an effect. Changing behavior. Oh, and Eli, I didn't press my five-minute timer before I went. I was too excited to get started. Oh, good. I'm on it. People participate. Thanks, you guys. Great. I think it's a really interesting thing. We think of donors and we often think of them as other people, but we are donors too. And we experience impact. And when we read something, we feel impact from it, or we have great examples of something that has shown us impact and therefore value. Some people find value in the big bag of swag that comes in a direct mail piece. I personally don't. I do take the little things and use them sometimes, but I usually tell that organization to stop emailing me or mailing me. But if that didn't work, it wouldn't happen. So, we have to think about how can we demonstrate impact to the organizations? And that often is about storytelling. So, if we look at stories, what do we use these stories for? Let's look at acquisition, cultivation, solicitation, stewardship, et cetera. All of our lovely words that we use across the donor cycle. In every aspect of that, we use storytelling. What sometimes happens, though, is we think of these things all separately. We don't think of them as one story that could go across the board. Then, where do we use stories? Well, we use those in our collateral, in our grant applications, in person. We want you to think how knowledgeable are your board members, your volunteers, your ambassadors, to be able to share your stories in person? How much are they armed at your stories? What do they have in their toolkit? I can probably guarantee you that it's less than you think that they have. So, always something to think about. Our social media, our direct mail, our website, all of these ways. A really fun activity to do with your team is to sit at your next team meeting and talk about, if I was to ask you, why your organization? Why would I give to your organization? What makes your organization unique? This starts to form your story, which is also important. What's really neat involve everyone in this conversation because the answers to this are really interesting to look through. You usually get the biggest surprise or unexpected answer from somebody who's not involved with fundraising. It doesn't have anything to do with fundraising at this point. Then, to back up what Amelia said, when we are sharing stories, we have to consider videos and photos as well. That pages, look at this statistic, pages with visualists are 94% more views on average or visuals are processed faster than words. This is where I'm going to double down. I think often we think the whole topic of the talk was about how do we do less with, how do we do more with less? We have to think about who is collecting these stories for us. Are we involving volunteers? How about past participants from our organization? Are we asking youth to collect the stories? What a great opportunity for youth. Are they our clients that are collecting the stories if that's appropriate or our board members? I know at nonprofits, we tend to keep this in-house and it's a bit of a protection thing. I don't know how we have some trust issues. We need to all go through a bit of a trust system together. But I want to tell you, look at these happy people. This is why they're happy. How can you use stories and how can you show impact and also address other things that you need to happen? Say you were an organization that was working on youth leadership, youth and girls and women's leadership and you needed to recognize a sponsor. Let's not put up on social media the check presentation anymore. Let's not put up the thank you to ABC company for sponsoring this. Nobody likes us. Nobody cares about those and they don't get good traffic. What if we asked that organization to supply a female leader at the organization and we had one of our youths go and volunteer and interview her? What if we did this? What if we had that youth and provided this beautiful mentorship opportunity and growth opportunity for our youth? We had this great interview which drove our own objectives as well. Who knows what could happen? I can almost guarantee that relationship would keep going between the two of them, which would be great. We actually have people read it. In a lot of our sessions, we say to people, let's think about what we need and let's think about how we're showing impact and let's think about what's not needed anymore. We have organizations say, but we have to do that. The sponsors need that. The companies require that. Do they or do we just keep putting it on agreements? Because they guarantee that. Okay, that's it. That was it.


Hello and welcome to International Daily Roundup by People's Dispatch, where we bring you major news developments from around the world. Our headlines.  And in our video section, we take a look at the Texas electricity blackout and the failures of deregulation. In our first tour in nearly 170 Rohingya refugees have been detained by Indian police forces in the Jammu region. The detention took place over the weekend after local authorities conducted an identification drive. People were brought to the MAM stadium for a biometric verification and COVID tests. All those who were unable to provide documents were then detained in the Hiranagar sub-jail. The jail has been converted into a temporary holding facility. As reported by the Indian Express senior police officials have announced that the refugees will now be deported back to Myanmar. Local media also reported refugees fleeing their relief camps following retentions. Around a million people from the predominantly Muslim Rohingya community fled Myanmar in 2017. They were escaping military-led violence and massacres which had an estimated death toll of around 10,000. As per government estimates nearly 40,000 Rohingya refugees reside across various settlements in India. A majority of the refugees are undocumented and while some do have UN issued cards, these are not recognized by the Indian government. Over 300 refugees are reportedly being held in jails for not having so-called valid documentation. Over 6,000 refugees live in relief camps in Jammu and Kashmir. Deportation to Myanmar poses a serious threat to life especially since the military let coup on February 1st. In our next story, 9 people were killed during a raid by security forces in the Philippines on March 7th. At least 6 people were also arrested in what is being called Bloody Sunday. The joint raids were conducted by the Philippines National Police and the Armed Forces in the Kalabarzon region. As reported by the Enquirer, the police claimed that they had gone there to serve warrants for loose firearms and illegal possession of explosives. Among those arrested and killed were prominent social leaders and activists. The raids took place in Laguna, Cavite, Batanga and Rizal. Sunday's raids took place just days after President Rodrigo Duterte ordered security forces to kill communist insurgents in the country. The Duterte regime has led a violent campaign against supposed communists in the Philippines. A central tactic in this has been the practice of red tagging. Readers have been targeted and accused of being members or supporters of the band Filipino Communist Party New People's Army. The raids on March 8th occurred just a few weeks after similar raids on an indigenous sanctuary school. The government had also introduced a contentious anti-terror law which will give security forces a wider mandate to arrest and detain people. Legal proceedings on the law are ongoing in the Supreme Court following 37 petitions against it. We now go to Thailand where 18 activists have been indicted for their participation in pro-democracy protests in 2020. Three protest leaders are facing charges related to sedition and the contentious less-majesty law which is about abusing the monarchy. The law criminalizes actions considered an insult to the monarchy and carries a prison sentence of up to 15 years. As reported by Reuters, the other 15 activists will face trial for sedition and violating a ban on public assembly. A Thai prosecutor announced in the indictments on March 8th. According to lawyers for human rights, a human rights group, at least 63 people have been charged under the laws regarding insulting the monarchy since November. Those charged under the law are often detained for long periods of time. Thailand has been witnessing a resurgence of pro-democracy protests over the past few weeks. Protesters are demanding the resignation of the military-supported government of Prime Minister Prayuk Chanocha. They have also demanded reforms in the constitution and limits on the power of the monarchy. Security forces have used tear gas, bait and charges and arrests to suppress the protests. Activists including prominent movement leaders have also been denied bail multiple times. They have also noticed march against a tradition of pro-democracy activists was held in the capital Bangkok on March 6th. For our final story, we go to the United States where a widespread grid failure affected millions in the state of Texas. As a rolling blackouts opened in place, people were left with no electricity or heating for days during a snowstorm. Dozens of deaths and several injuries were reported during this time. Here is Newsclick's editor-in-chief Prabir Purka as the examining the context of this crisis. The real issue was that there was no incentive to provide reliability for the grid. The entire deregulation and Texas is one of the most extreme cases of deregulating the electrical system as well as the energy system also. That means natural gas and other systems. So that basically it was left to the retailers, traders, the electricity producers to game the system that if there is a scarcity, if the grid is short of power, the price goes up. So there is a purpose incentive therefore to have a crisis by which you can then make more money. And this particular case, the price of electricity went up from $22 to $9,000 per megawatt hour. That's a huge, huge jump. And it remained there for about five days. Now this total amount, that extra payment that had to the grid forced the people to pay to the generators, what is in the range of $45 billion out to which 33 hours of this kind of extreme pricing was thought to be what the ARCAT made a mistake, the grid operator. Essentially ARCAT is really the grid operator. They made a mistake and the persistent with this beyond the period required. But nevertheless, even the three days which this was really enforced, which would have been what according to the regulator, the power utility commission or whatever it's called, that they said it should have been there only three days, not five days. But even if you take that into account, it's still $29 billion extra. Why is this extra money being paid? Because when the electricity supply drops, the prices go up. This is the nature of the electricity market that is created. And therefore, there is no incentive for people to see there is no scarcity. And in fact, as I said, there's a purpose incentive to actually promote a scarcity. And then of course, the utilities and producers can push in more power at a higher cost. So this is one part of it. And of course, the fact that Texas had no reserves in terms of interconnection with the larger grid that the US has. It has two grids that operate, national level grids that operate. Texas is isolated from both as a part of its Texas exceptionalism. That Texas will do something completely different from all others. So I think if you look at it, this is the key issue why there was no attempt to winterize the equipment, no attempt to look at reliability. The belief was markets will deliver the whatever is required. And that reliability was not an objective of the market. The objective of the market is quote unquote, efficiency.  This is the underlying philosophy that the Texas grid had. And unfortunately, as somebody has said, electricity is what the laws of nature is what electricity obeys, not the nature of the market. I think the biggest lesson to learn from this is electricity is a necessity. And if you do not consider the stability of the grid, then you are not going to really be able to service the people. And if Texas has shown that even with abundance of resources without proper regulation, the markets will fail. That's all we have time for today. We'll be back tomorrow with more news from around the world. Until then, keep watching People's Dispatch.


But these are the four styles, the video that we sort of say, this is the baby steps beginner sort of ideas that we present when we talk to a firm when they've not touched video before. So one is a company-wide profile. So tell me the story of the firm. We do this a lot for firms that have been around for 20 years, 10 years, 50 years, right? We've been around for a really long time. What also happens is firms will, after a period of time, maybe the people who started the firm are retiring and there's a new group of people that are taking over. So it's a way to illustrate the transition that could be happening. That happens quite frequently, right? Tell us the culture. Tell us the sort of range of work that you do. This is a lot of sort of like talking heads, right? Interviewees in there sort of explaining. The next would be the portfolio segment showcase. So here's my really amazing residential work. I'm just going to show you one single column of my work, one, you know, one segment of our portfolio. Here is an array of my beautiful residential work, right? You can do the same thing for, you know, name it in the building type. So that's another product. Third is the most probably traditional is the sort of legacy project. I've got one project that we know is amazing. We love it. It's going to be phenomenal. Let's start documenting it. Let's make this into a short film. You could have people talking in it, or it could be just simple, no narration. You could just have beautiful cinematography and maybe text popping in. So there's a lot of different ways to do that. And then the last is a series, which is a way to sort of think about breaking apart a collection of similar storylines, right? It's similar structures of content. So maybe, and, you know, you can mix these up. So the portfolio segment could then be broken up. And then some of the projects that you showed in the portfolio segment could then have their own individual project that fits into a series.  So I'm going to jump into these. We've had a great experience working with CLR design. The most important aspect of our relationship with CLR is the ability to come to the table. CLR design has been an aggressive design process to take place. And it's because CLR is extremely talented at conceiving of and executing Zoo exhibit. CLR design has been a zoo and animal exhibit design since the middle 80s. And we're very strong believers that we've got a legacy to carry on. So it's important for us to continue the same solid thinking that helped establish a firm. You know, we started with just a handful of folks back then. And now, you know, we're over 25 professionals just focused on Zoo design. We think, you know, like exhibit designers, we just don't think like architecture or landscape architects. We've kind of created our own niche as exhibit designers. That's what's fascinating, you know, about our job. The range is absolutely amazing. We can, it can range from a little mole-wreck to a, to a biggest land, animals on Earth. That's what makes the work exciting to be able to, for each client, do something really unique. All right. So that product, right, we took sort of the three new heads of the firm, weaved in their commentary and their interviews, brought one of their clients in. There's the film, this is actually, it turns into a nine minute piece that they, they made kind of longer than what we traditionally do. But it weaves in, it then gets into showing, you know, cinematography of their actual work. It has a couple more clients. It actually has users that use some of the space. So it's a very comprehensive over arching story of, of the firm of CLR. So next, portfolio segment. As our clients grew our business into, we ended up following them around the globe. That their business model started to influence our business model and how we approach design, how we approach workplace. And those partnerships still flourish today. One of the key things that we learned very early was to be very careful listeners. We've learned a lot from our clients. It's migrated into the way we work and allowed us to serve a much broader set of clients. We wanted to understand what, what a client's needs were, how we could develop an environment that was a strategic tool for them that allowed them to be more productive, allow them a better quality of life, and also create a tool that becomes a competitive advantage for them. So this is studios talking about, you know, their corporate office style architecture and it goes in and then shows you a handful of, of the projects and buildings. You know, most of that segment, there was a lot of still images in there, right? There's a lot of still photography. So you can, we tell our clients oftentimes the best image you're going to get is still the photograph. Photograph is still most likely going to be the best image because the photographer is there to get a handful of images, right? When we go out on site with video production, we're bringing multiple times the amount of equipment that a photographer is bringing on site, right? There's like rigging, there's dollies, there's all kinds of stuff, there's certain motion things, there's tons and tons of equipment they're bringing on site, which is why video costs a lot, right? Photographers that go out on site and they're usually shooting sunrise sunset shots, they're getting a handful of select images and then traditionally they're done, right? So use the photos, still have photographs, still get those photographs, but use them in the video. You don't need to overlap them and compete. Yeah, I'll just, I'll stop there. Eventually it'll just all be the same thing, right? I mean, the video is going to get high enough resolution that we're just going to be pulling stills from video. So, you know, photographers are coming into our world because they're scared and they're freaked out because photography is, you know, it's being squeezed and more and more people are moving into video. And photographers usually can't light that well, human faces or interior spaces that well for video. That's not, that's continuous shots and they usually can't do sound that well. So it's, you know, but they're coming in, you know, we work with a lot of architectural photographers to collaborate with them because they, you know, they have a great eye. Next example, Legacy Project. There's no narration in this, in this example. So this is just a quick little, the expansion that just happened down at the Kimball, like a little over a year ago. So quick shot, very, very, you know, we shot that over two days on site. Very quick production. And then this is, this is a series, this is a series that we've done for the, for the High Line where we actually highlight some of their volunteers. So it's actually some of the people that, the premise of the series is my High Line. So it's, they sort of say what the High Line is to them, which is a great way to showcase the people that use the High Line. So instead of doing a video where the High Line, you know, the leaders of the High Line talk about the High Line means this to us, as the people that made the High Line. Why don't you use the people that use the space to tell your story? Because they're going to have a totally different perspective, right? And this is, I'll show it to you and you can get a feel for what, what that can mean for, for the organization for the High Line. I love being in New York City. I think it's the only city, but I also love the natural world. I was looking enough to see a kid whose parents like gardening. We all had to garden when we were little kids. So we each had a little plot of land. That was my growing up experience with gardening. And that led to the work that I do as an artist, which is very much involved in the natural world. And that drew me to the High Line. The High Line is my garden. I'm not new to volunteering, I've done a lot. It's a way of giving back to the city, but it's also a way of having a hands-on experience with nature and gardening. Spring cutback is my favorite time of the year. It's after the winter, so it's really exciting to get back. And it's an amazing group effort. And it allows me to use what I know for a greater cause. My name is Ganny Miller. This is my High Line. Alright, so series, right? So you let the users tell the story, because they've got a better story than sort of the top-down design process.