Our journey towards a sustainable solution to open-source sustainability Starts a few years back in April 2014 Exactly who here recognizes this logo Any takers Yeah It is the logo of the Heartblade bug a bug so bad That it compromised the confidentiality of four and a half million US patient records and cost the industry an estimated 500 million dollars That bug was a pivotal moment where the tech industry realized that open-source was ubiquitous critical and highly undefunded ubiquitous Because the open SSL library that had this bug Was actually relied upon by two-thirds of active websites on the internet critical Because the open SSL library was responsible for encryption keeping communication private making bank transactions secure Securing medical records, etc and undefunded because Open SSL only had one full-time maintainer and was operating on a ridiculously small budget of Roughly two thousand dollars per year. Of course This created like a seismic shock in the industry and Everyone started talking about the problem of open-source sustainability of maintainer burnout And people starting started to try to find solutions The first solutions that emerged Were very much focused on preventing another Heartblade bug First one was the core infrastructure initiative. There was an industry-wide effort backed by the large tech companies and organized by the Linux Foundation and Had a pretty large fund That was administered by the Linux Foundation itself and the steering committee of composed of industry experts and Its goal was really to harden the security of key open-source projects but because its focus was essentially on core infrastructure I Eat to prevent a new Heartblade It really was not looking at making open-source as a whole more sustainable As a result a lot of other Efforts started existing a really interesting one Was open-source developers deciding to leverage existing tools such as patreon So patreon is originally aimed at artists musicians and writers You know its its goal is to create a meaningful revenue stream for artists and it had in The person of evanu pictured here a real success story Evan was able to quite quickly Collect roughly $17,000 per month in order to fund him working full-time on the view.js project however There there aren't that many other similar examples of a Single open-source developer being able to essentially get the equivalent of a reasonable full-time tech salary to focus fully on open-source Outside of working for a company. Let's look at another different Attempt to create a similar kind of revenue stream for open-source developers Gitcoin So what exactly is good coin well good coin is actually multiple things But central to it is a github issue market where as a developer was the owner of a project You can essentially add bounties to github issues and developers Submit their work as a pull request and claim the bounty as such And the platform actually has been distributing quite a bunch of money Over half a million dollar in 2018 only right. It's blockchain based so developers actually receive bounties in ether But what's quite interesting about get coin is it's a whole ecosystem So it also provides a patreon-like solution called grants and a small ad network code fund What is code fund while code fund leverages the fact that open-source projects usually have websites and that those websites are Great places to Find developers interested in a specific set of technology Right. So the ads are very much focused on hiring and their contextual ads So, you know, they avoid all of the tracking issues that Advertisement usually has on the web from a financial perspective Code fund has been roughly a creating $10,000 of monthly revenue Of which 60% so six $6,000 per month is redistributed to project maintainers Open-source sustainability has even attracted venture capitalists Which was OSS capital have created a venture fund specializing in open-source based companies Another really interesting project is open collective so open collective initially was designed for Essentially communities to self-organize and it has been applied quite effectively to open source So open collective even created an open of 501c6. So a non-profit to collect funds for open source and provide Transparency and then redistribute that money to the maintainers of Open-source projects as they saw fit So the real big success story of open collective is of course web pack which has been funded in four to five hundred thousand dollars per year and created like a really Really win-win situation for key sponsors. There's a really interesting story about how Trivago funded web pack through open collective And essentially as a result got a ton of interest from JavaScript developers who wanted to join the company because they saw it as really Caring about open source That said open collective has somewhat of a long tail problem because essentially most of the money is going to a few projects that have a lot of visibility and The the rest of the projects aren't getting as much money and so in order to solve that Open collective created back your stack The idea behind back your stack is that as the owner of a project or as a company that relies on on a bunch of Open-source projects or has a bunch of projects on their github you can basically just run a code and It will tell you not only your dependencies, but the dependencies of your dependencies recursively And then allow you to essentially fund the whole dependency tree through open collective This is actually a very similar scheme to what tidelift another company operating in this space has Created as a business model So what is tidelift exactly? Well, it's essentially on Red Hat's business model, but for the long tail. So it provides to companies a number of things around an open-source project including security updates maintenance legal assurance, etc for all of the open-source Projects that an organization relies on And how does it does it? How does it do it? Sorry Well, that's the really interesting aspect is it do it by paying the actual Maintainers of the projects to do the work to keep those projects up to date and secure And so contrary to the other Projects that we've talked about there's no real success story yet of a set of developers haven't built a business On top of tidelift, but there's certainly like a lot of interest for it so you know We've looked at a few Solutions around open-source sustainability But I think it's also time to Consider Taking a different look at those and seeing whether they really address the problem In a way that seems like a good fit and frankly There are a number of limitations of addressing open-source Sustainability through just the lens of funding right the first problem is Whether or not it actually scales like it is the current level of funding that we're providing realistic compared To the ubiquity of open source to the fact that open source is everywhere Secondly we can really wonder whether Money is really the problem and what's missing from open source, right? So essentially all we asking the right problem was this Thirdly, and I think that's also really key is it's important to wonder whether Solving open-source Sustainability through funding alone Would create the kind of outcomes that we want to see in the industry Don't we don't we risk a future where we'd have on one side Charity-funded open-source developers and on the other sort of corporate developers writing essentially glue code And so you know being fairly well-paid, but having really really boring jobs and Lastly, I think and that's sort of where I believe is the real answer to open-source sustainability long-term is To have a different look at what the real value of open-source is And and to try to Address this issue with that perspective in mind. All right, so let's look at scaling first So this is a hundred dollars bill if you stack a hundred dollars Sorry a hundred bills of a hundred dollar you get ten thousand dollars in this nice Little stack here For reference that is the monthly revenue that code fund That we've just talked about is making from advertisement Now if we stack a hundred of those Right, so two orders of magnitude more We get to one million dollars So this is roughly the amount of money that open collective is Collecting Prior or at least was in 2018 in 2019. I don't know what the numbers offer 2019. Sorry, but roughly around that That's also The amount that tied left the other company that were talked about earlier has committed to pay developers From on the VC funding that they received But how much is really one million dollars? Comparing to sort of like the size of open-source in the world and a good example of that a good way of Thinking about that to me is to sort of have a look at the worldwide developer population and see how many developers there are actually as a start and secondly To start thinking about how much money are these developers paid like what's the Total mass of salary paid to developers worldwide So this is data from a developer census that was run in 2018 and it basically says that there are roughly 12 million full-time professional developers a Little over 6 million that are working part-time and roughly 4 million that are non-professional, right? So a bit above 20 million on developers Let's do some some quick back-of-the-envelope math to see what kind of like salary Total salary that creates worldwide So if we take a 65,000 annual salary for developers for full-time developers This gives us roughly 780 billion dollars Spent worldwide on full-time developers add to that roughly 35k for the 6 million part-time developers per year and you get another 210 billion dollars if you add this up it gives you roughly 1 trillion dollars Spent in wages per year on software developers So that doesn't account for everything else right from the computer to the rooms in which they work to Taxes paid on on the salaries, etc. etc, right? Just salary and you know those numbers might be high for some parts of the world But they're also you know 65 and 35k, but they're also quite low for other parts of the world So a trillion dollar gives us a good sort of like, you know guesstimate of roughly how much money is spent So now let's sort of like compare it back to the 1 million dollars that we're spending on funding open source so if you take a hundred of those sort of like Bill a stack of a hundred dollar bills You get a pallet like a wooden pallet and and you stack on all those and that gives you a hundred million dollars right Now get ten of those and you have one billion dollars ten pallets Four hundred dollar bills one billion dollars, but remember the wages we're talking about is not one billion It's a trillion dollars. So let's have a look at what that means right Here you have ten billion dollars Right, so you have for size of a full full-sized truck on the left Let's have a look at what one trillion dollar means you need to stack a hundred of those to find a one trillion dollar right So one trillion dollars that skyscraper right there are made of hundred dollar bills on wooden pallets on stack wooden Pallets for size remember down there. We have a one million dollars Right, so what can we say about this? Well that there's a huge discrepancy between some of the money that is spent on developers worldwide right and the money that is used to fund open source right now and so that begs the question is Money really what's missing right? Are we trying to solve the right problem here? and so what an interesting way of looking at this is Looking at the amount of developers That are actually fully employed by a company and they're not looking for actual funding right? So the you know the Linux kernel is an interesting example because we have data for this from the next kernel development report So in 2016 right right two years after an hardly bug But that was that has been consistent before and was consistent on after Roughly 93 percent 92 percent. Sorry of developers working on the next kernel We're employed they were doing that as part of their job.  It's more of a question of maybe do they have enough time to work on this and you know before we sort of like dive deeper into If it's not money then then what is it I think it's worth spending a bit more time considering What would the the outcome be? if we really found a way to fund open source developers on one side and a really for me a really key Quote in that space is one by DHH the creator of Ruby on Rails who wrote in 2013 and an article called the perils of mixing open source and money the following thing He said this part of the reason Much of open source is so good and often so superior to closed-source commercial projects is the natural boundary of constraints if You're not being paid or otherwise compensated directly for your work You're less likely to needlessly embellish it. You're solving the problems for you and your mates Likely in the simplest way you could so you can get back to whatever you originally intended to do Before starting to shave the yak So what is DHH talking about here? He's essentially saying that there are real benefits and having a culture of developers working on Projects one on products on software and as part of that Taking a little bit of time to package sort of like Well-scoped solutions as open-source projects that they can open source Rather than build a whole industry and a whole Organization of people doing sort of open-source as a business So I think that's a really interesting aspect is to say that the frugality of having to build open-source projects like this makes the projects really really focused on solving specific problems and not sort of like Development for the sake of them of development Again as I said before the other real risk for me of Really hoping to fund open-source strictly through Essentially money charity like donations is the real risk of building this sort of like separate culture where you have on one side open-source developers Funded by large corporations creating open-source software that is then You know and and these developers living Not really well like not really having ends meet Having to to go from funding to funding having to fight to sort of like Hustle the sort of get enough funds to continue being able to work on a project right was the risk all the risks that we've seen before Maintain a burnout etc Projects getting closed security issues not being resolved The project is not being patched etc. And on the other hand, you know this sort of like corporate cast of developers Was really nice salaries, but essentially writing glue code around open-source software created mouseware And that doesn't seem like a really beneficial Great environment to work in for actually neither of the players in the script And I think this sort of brings us to a last question, which is what is the real value of open-source? And isn't it time to sort of look beyond the value of just the source code and consider all of the other aspects of open-source and all of the other benefits of Contributing to open source that you can have outside of just the source code itself So, you know the way that we've been sort of thinking about this open-source sustainability problem is To think of open source as a pool of comments like all of the software available to everyone Built by open-source developers that you sort of see around this pool here And on the other hand like across this sort of border in the middle corporations relying on open-source software to build stuff and And so we've realized that there's a real problem here because no one's paying for these open-source developers and as a result the software has problems and so we're just throwing money at the problem, right? So funding open-source essentially through cash was the hope that this will motivate all of these different actors in this mythical open-source ecosystem to contribute to the pool of comments and And as a result that corporations funding this open-source projects and the And the other ones just benefiting from those funds We'll be able to sort of capture the perceived value of this pool of comments This in my opinion really misses the big picture of what the true value of open-source is and if you've been part of an open-source Ecosystem, I mean and to some degree all of you being here today are part of one right at different levels obviously But you've realized that a lot of the value and an open-source ecosystem Isn't just the code being funded, right? It's in the code being worked on sorry. It's actually all of the Interactions all of the learnings all of the benefits of being in a community that is working together on solving really complex and difficult Coding problems and so The real value and I've talked about that in other talks, but the real value is The the benefit and the learning that as an individual Participating in this community you're getting right and so the real value all of you are actually taking back with you Home but also to the companies that enable you to work in this to participate in this ecosystem And so the real question then becomes Not sort of How you can capture the value as a corporation right the capture the value of the code But how you should really? Refocus your attention to sort of understand how you can capture and how you can Capture the value that is created by this whole set of interactions And to better understand that to better understand how companies should get Involved in open source. It's good to stop looking at corporations as just these like entities But also consider that these entities are full of developers that are themselves Quite capable of actually contributing to open source and in lots of cases do And so instead of really focusing on just these developers contributing to open source Let's remember that the real value of open source is in all of these interactions right And so, you know, if you actually allow as a company your developers to participate in this ecosystem, right? all of those Interactions are going to help your developers influence the project Learn from others Etc right and that as a result of these interactions as a result of this community Your developers participating in that ecosystem would actually bring all of the value that they're required back home And that's how corporations truly benefit from open source Not only and not just by using the code that's the output of this whole process But really by getting their engineers involved in the process and leveling them up improving Allowing allowing them to grow and benefit from this ecosystem and becoming better engineers Understanding and adopting better practices, etc. Yeah, you know as a conclusion I think it's really important to understand that charity likes funding to open source Alone is not going to be the solution, right? Of course, it's a great ad and it's wonderful if we can allow a number of community members to Live open source differently and work on open source full-time are not necessarily working for cooperation If that's what they want and if like the whole ecosystem benefits as a result, right? But the real way forward is to normalize engineers like you all contributing to open source as part of their day job and To make that possible the best solution is to make corporations and organizations Really understand the return on investment of having their teams contribute to open source Voila, that's it for today people. I would love to have questions about this And I'm happy to entrust them in the chat. Thank you so much for your time and your attention Bye-bye


I'm gonna bring it to the table, Boss Talk. Who your girlfriend fave, Boss Talk. We gonna do it how you want it, Boss Talk. Yeah, everybody on it, Boss Talk. Check it, check it, check it. It's a unique hustle. It's your boy, E-C-E-O, and I'm here with the lovely official Miss Jamaica. What's going on? Yeah, nothing, my dad will walk on. Hey man, man, hey man, it's going down. You know, we having a great time. You know, hey man, we've had the most extraordinary people to come through here. Yeah, sir. But hey, we got one that's been here before. I mean, she's helped my brand. We met in, you know, in another life. Helped our brand. Yeah, yeah, in another lifetime. You hear me? Another lifetime, it was a before lifetime, and it is our brand, baby. Hey, you know what I'm saying, ring? Oh, okay, you know what I'm talking about. Check it, man, hey man. Tyler Michelle is in the building. What's going on? Hey, it's good, it's good. Hey, man. So happy to hear y'all. Say, hey man, we just appreciate you for coming through Blessing the Platform. Being that we have a history, it was only right that we bring you on. Oh yeah, most definitely. Cause when the brand was doing the unique hustle thing, you know what I'm saying? You was here for us. How many years ago was that? That was in 2016. Yeah. Oh, wow. I'll be on it. Time's up. I was wondering too, I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was in 2016, 2016, 2017, but most, 2016. It was definitely 16. Yeah, yeah, and that's dope, man. And you been singing a long time. A long time. We just appreciate you for, you know, always tapping in and checking on us, even if it was about the music or if it was just about us pushing forward. And that's, that's dope. Like I never picked up the phone and felt like I couldn't call you or text you and you would respond.  I watched you when you was out of the country. I seen you when you was doing it. Hey man, thank you for serving and supporting our country. Thank you for your support. Man, you doing your thing, even on that aspect.  Just tell us a little bit about yourself. All right, I am in the Army National Guard. I have been since I was 17. Wow. How many years? I've been singing for before then. So what, we had 10 plus. 10 plus, that's dope. 10 plus years. You gonna retire that day? At this point, if music can kind of come in between, you know, I'll do that, but if not, then yeah. Man, I'm so proud of it. Kind of playing A, playing B kind of thing. Got to stay afloat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically, how did you end up getting in the Army? Well, we'll go to music first. What, you said you did that earlier, right? What did you want to be when you were a kid? Cause did you always want to be in the Army? Did you always want to sing when you were a young child? I don't think I had time to think about it. I didn't have time. Like I just kind of grew up. We traveled a lot, we moved a lot. Were your parents in the military too? Mm-mm, no. So why did you travel and move a lot? So initially, I'm from New Orleans, Louisiana. Okay. We moved down here in 2001. My mom and her five kids.  I'm the last to five. I was about to say I was a university. Baby girl. I'm the baby. Brothers and sisters? Yes, two brothers, two sisters, and it's me. Okay, so as a child, so how old were you when you moved down here? I was about eight. Eight, so at eight years old, you didn't have, you say you didn't have any goals. This is what I wanted to do. We moved down here to Texas. You know, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on at this point.  So that's where I realized I could sing. Okay. I didn't know it first. I didn't until I got down here and I was like, okay. And same thing with, what's her name? Cheek. Cheek, Andy. Yeah, it's the same thing. You mimic kind of like people around you. So initially I didn't know I could sing until I was like, oh, she can do that. I could do that too. Okay.  Yep. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You had any solos in church? Yeah, I did. I was in the soprano section, so the highest one. Wow. So you can really go up there. And I noticed that my voice was above everybody else's. Like I could hear that it made the sound complete. So it's, he showed me very quickly. Were you able to do the riffs back in church? Yes. So you weren't able to do the riffs? Yeah, it didn't take me too long. It just kind of came natural. Okay, okay, okay. I can't wait to hear you. I'm already ready. Yeah, well, you know. So when you first got in the church, you was singing and everything sounded good and family was looking at you and they was proud of you, nervous? Oh, absolutely. I bet. Absolutely. But you have to get past that nervousness, right? Oh yeah. And that took a while. That takes a while. That takes a while.  You know what I'm saying? You'll still be nervous, but eventually you'll eventually get there. So when your mom and dad heard you sing for the first time, what did they say? My mom actually just reminded me of this. Maybe a week or two ago, I was in church and it was a play. And I had to, I think I was married or something. I had to baby. What was the song? I really don't remember. But anyway, so I'm going down the aisle and I'm singing and that was her first time really hearing me sing. And she was like, that's my baby? What? Wow. She was shocked. So you didn't even sing around the house or nothing?  There's five of us. Wow. She had to work. Speaking to mama, she called me right now. You had dad there too? No, not my dad. He's still in New Orleans. My whole family is still out there. But you have a relationship with him? Oh, yeah. How was it growing up in a dysfunctional home with one parent? It wasn't too bad. Watching how mama was. She was more than enough? More than enough. She was literally both parents in one. I could say that. She held it down. Even if we had times where we was low, it wouldn't feel like it because she would make enough.   And not even always just verbally, it's just by walking. They look and see that's how a man is supposed to treat a woman. That is how a man's a woman. As a female, girl, older, that's the type of man I need to find. You know what I mean? I think my mama probably replaced that with the Lord. It's a different type of love. I didn't find that in men, or she didn't show me that. She didn't show, you need this type of love, or for this person to treat you right. All you need is him, and he gon' guide you where he's supposed to go. He gon' bring the right person to you and all of that, so. I guess you heard that. She talking about God in here. And you know what I mean? I love God, so this is about to be interesting. I mean, the fact that faith has brought her thus far. You know what I'm talking about. Faith, hope and love. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. And then she said that her mother had a different type of love. It was almost as if she was just getting close to the fact that it was a Godly unconditional love. You see what I'm saying? That's the kind of Godly love. That's how it's different. She said, I didn't see it expressed as affiliate love, but in agape love. Which affiliate love is like a brother and cousin and sister. No, she said this was something on another level. Mama had an unconditional agape love for Tyona Michelle. Well, all her kids. Hey, it's going down, man. That's what I'm talking about, man. And that's why she's saying from her heart, cause she know God.  I'm gon' be real with you. If I did not know God and not have a real relationship with him, I would feel empty in spots. And every time I felt empty, God would fill that spot up. I'm not playing. Exactly. And they say, you preaching. Man, you better learn about God could plan. Every time you say, I'm preaching, you really saying, I don't talk about God much. I'm checking out. At the end of the day, I don't really, when you express God to me, you sound like you're preaching. No, this is life. Yeah. This is life. It is. So if you don't have it, what you expressed to me was that that's what held you and brought you through. Oh yeah. And you know that's what brought you through. And when she say something that was so dope, she said, when we didn't have much, mama made it work. See, that's what God would do. He'd take a, and that's what creative black folks do too. We take a little bit and we spin it into enough. Man, this is dope, right? You're like, this dude is made for this. Oh yeah. No, we're having a good time on Boss Talk 101, y'all. Hey, man, it's going down, man. Make sure you guys like and subscribe to our channel. Make sure you check us out, man, on Spotify, podcasting. Make sure you're on Google, Stitcher, Apple, everything. Apple, iHeart podcasting. Y'all got to check us out on all platforms, man. It's going down, man, on Boss Talk 101. Oh yeah. Man, that's why it sound good like that. It gotta be right when it gets in the morning. Cars and stuff. Ain't nobody seeing nobody talking in them cars. It got to be able to, you got to be able to understand what's going down. Oh yeah. You got to be able to connect in person. When you get in your car and you're like, I want to hear a Boss Talk, you just push that button and put it in Boss Talk, Apple podcasting, bam. You're going to say, man, I am on there. Dang, that's dope. So after church, when was the first time you said, this is what I want to do professionally? Oh, good question. Hmm. I think it was approached to me, actually. When I didn't know I could sing, it was like, okay, cool, I know I could do this, but how do I get out there? How do I find a studio? How do I do all that? It was a shout out to young Mark.  So we can bring him on the show and he can cook. He can bring the burners. Oh yeah. And we can eat taste right here. We need to get that boy on the show. We also got a, is it a KLC song that I'm supposed to come through and bless us that whenever that happens, I'm show waiting on it. I'm hungry now. Yeah. But I went to school with him and I ended up seeing him. He was working at Taco Bell. I'm in the car, my mama, we're getting Taco Bell and that's how we connected. What's his name? One man producer, one of the first producers I ever worked with in Arlington. Wow. Yeah, I think he wrote it for me and everything. I didn't know how to write songs or I just knew that I could sing. Yeah, okay. So I don't know that boy. Thank you. So do you write your own songs now? I do present day, I do yes. Okay.  Yeah, I know, she said she didn't know cause not everybody, I know a lot of artists that's been coming on say that's how they start. They start off writing first and then, you know, go off in to rapping or singing whether it be rapping at school because other kids be rapping and then or some start later on whether it be in prison or just depends on where. But everybody uses music for therapy to channel all of those words, thoughts cause we all think things but never always say it. So they use it to channel all the things they've been thinking. That is true, that is true. Me? Writing, I had to be taught. I didn't know how to write. I didn't know how to structure a song. I didn't know it was like a verse or a hook or verse or hook or I didn't know any of that. Is there anything else other than that? Cause I know that part but is there any other structure within that to write a song? For me, yeah, a topic. I don't want to go off topic. I want to, whatever topic I chose is what I'm gonna stick with. Okay. The hook, once I lay that, that's it. Then it's just the verse. So you lay your hook first? Depends, it's probably yeah. Probably. Okay. Cause that's the hardest part I would think is to get the hook, a catchy hook. But that's really what everybody hears. Everybody hears hear the hook first before they hear the song. Isn't that correct? Cause that's the part that everybody will sing over and over. Or the beat. So like how he said his daughter hit the table and he heard something, that's kinda how I operate as well. I might say something wrong or sing it wrong but I heard a melody and that's how I got it. So I'm gonna stick with whatever I just heard. Cause it was off, it was wrong but it was right. Wow. So it works the same way. The beat and the melody. How long does it take you to write a song? Now. Not long. If I have a topic, not long. If it's like a fresh beat and like the producer didn't name it or nothing, it might take a minute. Well, not really, it don't take long. How long does it take you to learn how to write a song? Cause I might start writing some songs now. It don't take long, it don't take long. Once you get the structure, once you, you gotta listen to the beat as well. And the beat tells you when to come in. First of all, you gotta pray and ask God to give you that gift. Now you cook good. You do a lot of things good. Well, I have never tried to write a song so you don't know. So you don't know if I can or cannot. All I'm saying is maybe you can but at the end of the day, God speaks to you in a still small voice and say, you know what? You can do it. That's your thing. And you count them, you don't know it but your body reacts to the fact. I just gotta know the structure. You understand what I'm saying? He shows you your gift and things that you bump up against. When she says she was in the choir, you didn't hear that. I didn't, you- I heard that part? I was in the choir too. Oh, but you didn't hear the song on a whole another level when you sung it. I've heard you sing. You know what I'm saying? This is her song. She said she made the song. She could tell it was her doing it. That's heavy. So I commend you for that. Yeah. And I would tell you- How many verses you have to have in a song? Man, you can make one song.  It's the beat, it's the beat. If you ask me, it's the beat. It's some songs out there that they don't have with one or two verses. It's all about what you wanna do. It's really your passion and your heart that pushed through the waves to the people. Yeah, my song Nubu, it has only two verses. See what I'm saying?  Yeah, so- You ever done a song like that, that's all that came to you, put it out. But in your mind, you're like, cause I'm gonna do a part two or part three to it. R. Kelly. Do you ever do that? That's what R. Kelly did, with trapped in the closet at about 20. Because it might not have came to you at that time, but you left it in a state where you could add on to it later on. Yeah, I have a lot of those in the vote. I'll say, as for what I have out now, probably not, probably not.  Let's be real for a second. Absolutely not. So you feel like, do you understand what's holding you back? Yes. Who is it? Me. Damn right it is. Now let's keep going. And why is it you, and what is it about you that's holding you back? Various, various things, but I think mainly- Like what, let it all back up. Mainly, mainly I need that team. I need somebody aside for myself. To do what? To do what? To help me market it, to help me become, or come up with creative ideas. For me personally, to know me personally, you gotta know that I overthink a little bit. You gotta know that, you know what I'm saying, just me. So if I could have somebody around me to pick up that slack, or, you know. You need to change your thinking. I'm probably- Change your thinking because, don't always depend on other people, because whenever you are talented, because you are talented, and people see you pushing and pushing hard and working hard without a team. A team will come, because all of those right people, will, God will set them in the right places to see you, and approach you and say, hey, I need you on my team. You don't have to go searching for anybody. And that's another thing, I was gonna get there too. You know what I'm saying? Like I mentioned earlier, the little bit that I've done is gotten great attention. So I know that if I do put out more content, if I do push- Did you hear me when I said earlier, content over create? Content over create, absolutely. Every day, push, push, push. So I do that, exactly what you said is gonna come, the as it already has. But you need to change your thinking as in stop procrastinating, stop doubting yourself, stop holding yourself back. Because in the long run, just like I was telling a friend of mine before, in the long run, you don't ever wanna look back on your life and say, you know what, I wish I did, I wish I could have pushed harder. You see in the past, where I could have done this differently.  So you gotta try. So are you gonna be deploying out in August? Are you gonna be around? I'll be here. August the 22nd, I believe, on that Sunday, I'm doing about nine performances down in Deep Elm. I wanna make sure that you'll be one of those. It's live band. Oh, that's even better.  That's how a big dog do it. I appreciate it. Barking. The nigga, he ain't really pulling it together. Like he, yeah, if I'd have knew, you know, what's going on with me right now, I'm just creating an opportunity for people. A lot of people. August the 22nd? Yeah, that's a Sunday. Yeah, it's gonna be during the day, it's gonna be from three, it's gonna be like a day, following all the way into like 10.  And with the live band, and I'm putting up the funds for it. Yeah, shout out to me. Yeah, shout out to you for show. You and I do boss talk one on one, but bosses talk, bow. Yeah, shout out to you. Oh, did you come up with something on that? I don't think so. She just, I don't doubt about it right now. Teamwork, right? I think I just, I came up with that this morning. So I'm just, I'm picking my people as I go. And you one of them. I appreciate that. And you were. And I wasn't one of them because I didn't know nothing about it. So I guess I was excluded. I guess I was excluded. No, no, no.  I'm going to cut that part. I don't care how you looking crazy. I'm going to cut that part. So, but definitely I want to try to put you on that roster. It'll be, I just got to figure out. I'm going to try to talk to a couple more guys. I know a lot of people. I've been doing this. I do this, you know? So it's going to be dope to hear you sing down there. But right now I want to hear that song that you sung in church. That one that you know that when you sing that song, it is something that you like. Something you like to sing. You got to love it. OK, let me think that I think. Yeah, you put me on the spot with that one. Let's go. You tell me we was talking about church, you know? Let's get it. Let me see. What's that one song that everybody's seen here? Amazing grace. Let's not do that one. That one's so simple. Why are you knowing? Well, you want to hear it. Let me just let me see. No, a friend formed against me. She'll prosper. It won't work. That's it right there. Keep going. Give me a little more. Just a little, just a little more. Man, I was in the spirit right then. Go ahead. She's just teasing somebody. Come on. See, that's what I've been doing my whole career. No weapon.  Sing it with me. No weapon formed against me. She'll prosper. It won't work. But it's dope. God will do what? God, come on. You going to sing it with me? Yeah, I got you. Go. God will do what he said he will do. He will stand by his word. He will come through. I thought you were going to sing it with me. Come on, man. That's dope, man. That didn't even sound right. We're loving the way you're doing it. I'm just trying to get there. I'm trying to warm up. That's a dope song. That's one of my favorite songs, man. Because that's the one you sing when things trying to come up against you.  I didn't say, darn well, I said, darn well. You know it's the devil. You know, darn well, it's somebody trying to get, you know, you trying to come up against what God has done in you to stop it from happening, man. That is dope. That song right there gets me through. That one and stand. Yeah. That's another one by Donnie McClurk. It gets you through. Oh, that whole air. Yeah, it wasn't just stand. It was another one that he said, we fall down, but we get up. Yeah, that whole air. I still hit you. Hit you like it's day one, like it just came out. And you cannot leave Marvin Sapp out with your God alone. Oh, yeah. You heard that song? You are God alone. Man, I can make it through anything with that right there. You know what I'm saying? There's certain ones, and then you have to think about Marvin Sapp. I'm not Marvin Sapp, but what's that boy named?  Kirk Franklin? No, smoking all folks. Stop playing. Yeah, smoking all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That boy with the big boys. You know what he said short is the whole one. The short one. Yeah, but smoking. That Norfolk guy is the one. He got a big voice to be so little. I mean, it's remarkable. He got a song called Dear God or God is Able.  And don't get me wrong. I might be cussing and fussing and cutting up one minute, but those songs right there will stabilize me. Oh, yeah. Y'all ain't ready.   I ain't by myself. Not at all. You know what I'm saying?  You traveling the cities that people would never see. You eating and doing things whenever you want to do it, driving around in the most fancy vehicles. And you still think that we don't know God is real. To come from where I came from. Stop playing, man. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? The whole game, like when you came over here before, I was going through my thing, certain things you go through phases in life. Oh, yeah. It's part of the process. But God say, you know what? He meets you where you at. You know, it don't matter where you at. He can meet you. He say, hey, come on. You still my son. The prodigal son, when he left, he still was his father's son. It didn't matter about him being in the hog pen. He was still his father's son. You see what I'm saying? That's the way you gotta be. You gotta be connected and well respected. Check me out now. So let's talk about you growing up in Dallas, cause that's really where you grew up at.  That's where you at coming up. Yeah, cause you don't have a New Orleans accent at all. Dallas, Dallas. No, no, no. So yeah, I came here when I was eight. So I'm very proper. Prior to getting here, I didn't have really good English. I would probably say words wrong. No, no lie. If you listen to some people from New Orleans, you know we say some things wrong. Or Jamaica, shout out to Jamaica. No, we don't. And they would pat toine you to death. Please speak proper English. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But New Orleans definitely.  What was it in high school that you done that stuck out to you that you remember from the ninth to the twelfth grade? Okay, well, I went to four different high schools. Okay. So. What stuck out? Yeah, cause you said you moved around a lot. Yeah, exactly. So I went to four different high schools. I do still play basketball as a hobby anyway. Okay. So you used to who? Yeah, I whooped the entire time. All four high schools. That's really it. I was real quiet, real shy, real to myself. So it's kind of how school went for me. You never did say why did you move around a lot. I understand moving from New Orleans to here, but once you got here, why were you moving around a lot? So initially, when we moved down here, it was homeless. We didn't have nowhere to go. Wow, that's dope. We stayed with my- You know why I say that's dope? Cause I know already that's gonna build something. Oh yeah. When you go through something like this, I was homeless. I get excited. Yeah, yeah. I remember the first day we made it to Texas. I believe we took the train. I remember hugging my grandma before we left. And I remember being on my sister's dad's doorstep for at least 30 minutes to an hour waiting for him to get home kind of thing. So yeah, it was plenty of times where, like I said, I'm by myself, or my mom's by herself without her kids. So, you know, it was times where we had to move because of whatever, you know what I'm saying? So you was homeless when you first got here? Yeah. How long did you guys stay homeless? I don't think it was too long. Week? Two weeks? We probably stayed with him maybe a month or two before we got our own. Not even. We moved in with a church member. You know, church becomes family. Yeah, it does, yeah. Got a grandma out of there. So we moved in with my grandma, my Texas grandma, all that kind of thing. So we moved around a lot. It was just part of the process, you know what I'm saying? So when did you, let me ask this question. When did your mama get her a job and you've seen some progress at eight? I know at nine somebody came home. It was something that stemmed some finance around that time. She started working for the ISD school district. So she's been there for a minute. She's still there? She's still there. She's still there. Do you think that moving around a lot as a young child play a part in your life now? Because I know people who, when they were younger, they moved around a lot.  They don't like sitting in one city or one place too long. Yeah, so I could say that I've been traveling my whole life. So even after high school, when I joined the military, I'm still traveling. So still to this day I'm traveling. So I think it does. Yeah, because it's probably hard for you to stay sit still. And if I am sitting still, I'm ready to take a trip. I don't care if I'm just going to Houston for a little bit or to a lake house, anything. So you're right, yeah. And do you think that that plays into your love life as well as in to settle down wise? Yeah, for a very long time, I try not to get into a relationship because I knew that I would either deploy or I have to go away for six months at a time or something like that. So music, same way. Guys don't really handle the music industry very well, especially being pretty or be sound good or whatever. So yeah. That's why some people actually marry people who are in the industry or being in the military, people marry people in the military because they're more understanding with certain things. What's the craziest thing that's happened when you've been dealing with these music ventures? And you don't have to put a name on it, but where something went wrong because somebody tried to make a pass at you. It happens all the time. It happens all the time. I said the most crazy. I don't know. It happens all the time. It happens all the time.  And then all of a sudden, they in love with you. Well, how did you get in love with me? I didn't even do anything. I just, I'm in here working. I'm in here just doing me. And all of a sudden, you want more. Producers, producers. Producers, artists, you know. Okay, let me see. People that can't control themselves. Let me flip that as well because being a woman period, you're gonna get that, right? Yeah. And I see it on the news all the time. I don't know if you can speak on it, but even in the military, being in the military, you had that young lady who got killed in the military. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I hear that it happens a lot in the military where people above you, males above you, you know, to try to pass their place in different things. How does that affect you or maybe someone else that you know you don't have to call their names? What things have you seen that you're like, that shouldn't be happening?  Okay, I look at the military like any other organization, like any other job, you are around these people 24-7, you know what I'm saying? They are regular individuals like everybody else. You can try to stop somebody from doing something, but you can't ultimately, you know what I'm saying? Cause they're their own individual kind of situation. But you would think that the government should put things in place to protect you. Do you understand what I mean? Cause the government isn't like the regular organization that, you know, the company out here, whatever they're supposed to. I mean, I'm not talking down on them, but they are. They are the regular, it's a big organization.  So they should put their, not life, but. They should do more. They should do more for you. They should do more, but the way it's set up, in my opinion, you just have people that are for themselves or not even for themselves, just for the job. You have a more for the job aspect, get the job done than for your people and making sure your people are straight. That makes sense. And that's with everything. That's not just the military. I've seen it in several other jobs.  But how can you conduct yourself? It ain't gonna. You be you. How can you conduct yourself, example in the military versus, you know, in the music industry, that this does not happen to you or that you can, it's gonna happen, but so you don't succumb to certain situations, so to say. It's nothing you can do.   If I'm not interested in you romantically, you're gonna know. You're gonna know if I am. So there's no, I'm not gonna give you a vibe or anything that's not for you. Thank you, thank you. It's not for you. Because it's a lot of women that lead this stuff. Yeah, I'm not leading with my body. I'm not leading with none of that. Yeah, I wanna talk about that for a minute. Before you hit me anywhere else. Yeah, because that's what women do a lot of time. They play the game. Especially these days.  But at the end of the day, if you'd have seen the way they was facadeing around, then it pretty much called on that type of behavior. Absolutely. So don't you have some people who actually as males, even although you give those signals, they still force themselves on that person? Yeah. Yeah, but you at the end of the day, you put yourself in situations with people. If you're staring like she just said, and you're not showing them no kind of smiles or nothing like that, the same thing Kevin Sammy's talking about, how they frown all the time. Ain't nobody fit to be messing with you. You do that. I think most of the time, women invite them, and I've talked to women that say that, they knew exactly what they was doing when they done it and they knew they invited that into their life. Absolutely. And that's what I hear a lot of. So at the end of the day, keep that strong. And as a woman, you'll see it too. You'll see another woman doing that. Exactly. You ain't gotta push like that. Yeah, you doing it. You ain't gotta do that girl kind of thing. Yeah. And so I know it go both ways.   I don't know where they came from but it really matched. Yeah. Yeah.  I know that it only was God. Oh yeah. Because a lot of them turn prostitute. A lot of them go out and do things where they got the body that you have. They don't join no military. No, no, no.  So one of these places and they just, that's what they wanna do. Yeah. They say, I didn't have another choice or I was victimized, I get it. But a lot of times it's something that you in your heart decide, hey, I wanna do that. I think a lot of people is just missing that main ingredient and that's that relationship with Christ. Boy. Once you have that relationship with Christ, you gonna carry yourself differently.  Wow. So how do you maintain that relationship with Christ? How do you make it stronger so you can deal with the problems that you face? You have to read. You remain in the word. No, no, no. You have to read. You stay in the word. Because if you don't stay in that word. You stay in the word. You know what? We're gonna fall out of it. That's right. You're gonna fall out. Evil communication corrupts good manner. That's what the word is saying. And it is so true. If you get caught up in all of the different things, the conversations, the different things that depict evil, spiritual wickedness in high places. Then you start to live out those things. So you know, I definitely know because I've been through it. Everybody has had their taste of dealing with it. Now some people can hide it better than others. I ain't gonna tell the truth about it. But then there's one, some who just say, you know what? I messed up. And then they try to fix it up. You know what I mean? That's what we're supposed to be. Supposed to try to make it better. So how's your sisters? Cause they had all, you got four sisters or two brothers. Two sisters, two brothers. Two sisters, two brothers. Okay, how, how, what happened? Let's start, let's break them down. Okay, let me break them down. My oldest brother, my oldest brother, he had also joined the military. He just got out. I want to say maybe a year or two ago now. Oh, he retired. Shout out to your brother. What's his name? He's out, Byron. Shout out to Byron, man. What's up, baby? But in retired, hey, I already know you're going to double down on your retirement. And you know, yeah, you're P, when you're getting through traumatic PTSD. PTSD. Nigga, I know how y'all getting down. Don't play nigga. Yeah. And then there's my sister, Kiera. Well, Kiera, what's up with Kiera? Kiera, she got my three nieces. Okay. I have all nieces. Okay. No nephews. So she got three of them. It's four total. So she got three. She actually just lost her husband two years ago. How's she looking? Correct. He got killed in North Dallas. Oh, oh, this was a violent act. Yeah. Got into it with somebody. I don't really know the detail. They didn't tell the detail. Yeah. So that was a push- I mean, meeting him, was he the type of dude was a street cat or was he? Oh yeah, he was a hustler for show. Okay, for show. Yeah, he was a hustler for show. Yeah. Born and raised, oh, Cliff. How are the kids doing right now? They good. Okay, y'all trying to fill those gaps. No, you are already familiar with that territory being that your mother had to go through what she went through. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. God has a way of working it out. All the time. All the time. So tell her to be strong, man. I sure will. How old are the kids? We got 12, eight, and just turned four. 12, eight, and four. Man, that's it right there. So what do you do?  All the time. Already, man. All the time. My youngest niece, the one who lost her dad, she calls me all the time. Okay. You the favorite auntie? Yeah, I'm the favorite auntie. Let's talk about that other one.  Siblings? Yeah. Okay, so then there's my other sister. That's my, she has my fourth niece. And she's like 10, 11, about the same age. But how are they the sister? So they were my example. I ain't talking down on them, you know what I'm saying? But I'm the last of five so I can look up. I can see what they're doing so I can know what not to do. All right, so some of the things that they got into, cool some of them, you're not cool with, you know. Right, right. But at the end of the day, everything's at the end of God. Exactly. The way things fall out, it's already been written, stuff like that. So, but they're healthy. Oh yeah, everybody's good. They have nieces and nephews for you, any nephews? No nephews. No nephews. Okay. So is it, is that the reason why you went to the military was because of your older brother? Yes, yes. And it was sudden. The decision was I'm in the car with my mama once again. And I'm just sitting there and I told her I was gonna join the military. She said you should. That's out of the blue. Out of the blue, it was no looking to it, research, see if this is what I wanna do, none of that. It was, this is what I wanna do and that's what happened. And how long had your brother been in there at that time? I think maybe a year or two. Okay. Maybe, he just kinda went off to training. So I graduated June, I'm 17. I left out in October. So I didn't have no time. Well, I told my daughter don't join it. But she still went and joined. And she went and did it. And I told her, no, all my kid, don't join it. Don't mess with that stuff. It ain't for us. And next thing I know, she come back, she said, I'm in it. I said, okay. I didn't get mad. I didn't say, hey, you wrong or I ain't, no. You grown. Do it. Shout out to, yeah, shout out to Chastity. Day's your night. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, do your thing. She been in there about what, six, seven years? Mm-hmm. Nice. Yeah, get on D and both of y'all, get on to it. Get on to it, you're- Not to. So- So what's your top three artists of all time? Dead or Alive. Dead or Alive, straight up? Straight up. Let me see. Erica Badu. Boom, Badu. Foot show. Badu, that's a, hey, Erica Badu. You heard that? All the vibes. Number one. Number two. Let me see, let me see. I actually had already thought of this, but I just lost everything. I like Kevin Gates. He's one of my favorite rappers. Kevin Gates, boom, number two. Definitely one of my favorite rappers. Kevin Gates, you number two. And- Number three, top three artists of all time. This is probably gonna change once I get asked this question again, but I'm gonna go with Jasmine Sutherland. Jasmine Sutherland. She's always been slept on. She's been slept on. Jasmine Sutherland. She's always been slept on. Already, man. I got the voice of her. Got the look, got the, she got it. Okay. That's dope.  Yeah. Yeah, you, and that's what you're sticking with? That's what I'm sticking with. I'm gonna stick with it. Man, so no Michael Jackson, no Tupac? No. So my next question for you, not to go advise the younger you, but if you could come out of your head right now, as in the person that you are, and this now is the more confident you, speaking to the person who isn't, what would you advise yourself to get you further ahead in your music career?  If I'm looking at myself right now, get out your head. Just do it. Just do it. Put the time in, you have the time. Make it work. Just like you do everything else. You go hard with your career, your work. You'll put that same effort right now. Don't wait, do it right now. That's what I would tell myself. So you need to look in the mirror every morning and tell yourself that. As soon as you wake up, first thing you do, after you pray, is tell yourself that every morning. Right now. Wow. So let's get that song that you was gonna sing for us. Yeah, I was gonna sing a song, let me see. Yeah. One of your songs. Yeah, let's get it. I'm excited. I would do one of the new ones. I'm gonna just do Netflix, which came out around the time. Netflix. It's caught in the air right now. So I couldn't pay Netflix at the time to name it that. So I had to change it. It's in the air. Let me see. When the lights go down, Netflix on. Baby, you could choose a movie. Got your PJs on, OG gas and styrofoam. Baby, we could make a movie. Let's chill the night away. We relaxing. We pulling. Let's chill the night away. We relaxing. We cooling. Somehow I fell into your arms. We connected. Just a little bit. Already, man. Say, man, that's what I'm talking about, man. Man, y'all better stop playing, man. We got telling them, boss, I want a one, man. For real? Yeah, man. Hey, man, we love you, man. You know what I'm saying?  Boy, let me tell you something. That's all you got to do. You can come back anytime. You already could come back even when we weren't there doing the podcast. But now, you know, we didn't really just get down into it, but this God thing, man, it's real with me. Like, I mean, I guess because I know where I've been and I know what I came through. So yeah, it's real with me. It's a presence. You can feel it. Yeah, yeah. You know you feel it. Everybody know it feels it. Come on now. Come on now. I knew that I could feel it. I knew it was real. I can't deny it. Man, I'm just about playing. I felt it. I can't even, I can't even play with it because. With my music career, I may be going slow, but it's for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's set in its stone. I can't rush it. The thing, my military career, when I feel like, oh, it's blocking me from being more musically. No, it's not. I was supposed to go through this. I was supposed to have this mentality so that when I get in the position that I'm supposed to be, it's bliss. Yeah, I think you're doing it right.  You understand that? Oh, yeah. And that's the important part. You know, great heart. You don't, you make your own way. You know what I mean?  And I like that. And when I watch your, like your Instagram and stuff, it's motivational. It's not negative. It's always something to where it's a vibe. It looked like somebody who's courageous and trying to figure things out.  So you just got to keep doing that. You just got to keep pushing.  Like I told Dirk Bentley, the country's saying. Can't nobody take it away. It's yours. You understand where I'm coming from? So you don't have to worry about it. Like you said, man, you can feel it. Shout out to Charleston White that came on the channel and said, is this a Christian station?  Is this a Christian station? Yeah. Yeah, that's why I want you to, or to the guys that just love to say, you preaching, are you preaching? It's cool with me. I don't go by title cause title and position don't guarantee productivity. So I go by, I don't go by tradition. I'm not that God is at the church house. No, I'm from the trenches. But there are people that are from that era where they go to an auditorium. But I feel like God is everywhere. Oh yeah. So I feel like he's pretty, he's omnipotent. So at the end of the day, I'm not present. He can be anywhere and everywhere at the same time. He was in the room today. That's why they had to ask that question. He always is. I feel something. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you appreciate it. Yeah, that ain't doing it. It's making me feel some type of way right now. I don't do that. I do that a lot. I'm telling you. Because it's the word. You feel it. Because I read and I teach and so it comes out a lot of times and I don't trip. And then you show the real. Oh yeah, then I'll be having a good time. I love somebody. So I just feel like that's the way, I feel like nobody, I can't just invite anybody to sit on this panel because I know already that when I speak, I'm speaking from a place where God has put me in this position. Yeah, so you know, like I was saying, God is so real, man. And Tyana, you are one of the most amazing individuals. Thank you.  You know what I mean? So that's perfect. You know what I'm saying? Nobody but God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I told them earlier to be perfect because I'm perfect. I came at them with Matthew 5 and I believe it's 48. And they was like, wow, whoa, whoa, yeah, yeah. They didn't know that. Yeah, the Bible say put on the mind of Christ. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So when you know the scripture, you already know that God is in you. So you're good. Exactly. And if you mess up, guess what? He still got you. Still got you. That's the good part. You know what I mean? So when somebody, I can't mess up because every time I mess up, I'm like a cat that got nine lives. Or I'm like a cat that they drop off the roof. Every time they drop them off the roof, they keep falling on his feet. Oh, y'all ain't ready. Good landing. Yeah, yeah, that's dope, man. Hey, love you so much, man. Anytime you want to come back on, tell people how they can get a hold to you. Oh, my Instagram. Look at that camera. Instagram, just go crazy. Either one of them. Okay, all right. That one got you too. Okay, well, look, let's watch this. All right, y'all can follow me at Tyanna underscore Michelle. It's T-I-Y-A-N-A underscore Michelle. The best place to find me is Instagram. Just keep me there. Oh, ready, man. Hey, man, love you so much. We got a relationship, a long-term relationship. You know what I'm saying? And I like it, man. And like I said, can't wait to see your live performance. Me and my wife are gonna be set up there. Boss talk will be there. We're sponsoring it. And it's going down, man. So, like I said, it'll be about nine other artists. And it'll go, we think in three years. I'll send you the fly. It's being made right now, okay? And I had to address everything and you're gonna get to show your stuff. I can't wait. Hey, man, check it, man. Hey, man, it's been another great segment of Boss Talk 101. And we out.


Okay, we're back, we're alive welcome to research in Minoa here on think-tech tonight We're going to go right into the center of that issue and talk with our special and honored guest Vassilis Sirmos the vice chancellor for research and innovation at UH. This is the man who runs it all Welcome to the show Vassilis. Thank you for having me. Great to have you here in 2013 when the border region supported Vassilis as the VPRI vice-president research innovation of the University replacing Jim Gaines as the VP of research It also added the word innovation to the vice-president's title one of the new VPRI's properties is to support Significant growth in research through the University of Hawaii's innovation initiative was that H 12 is that H I to where? H OH hi squared Okay, this initiative seeks to double the stakes research enterprise at least at the time to one billion annually I'm gonna ask about that over the next decade the VPRI is also charged with critical leadership and coordination of System-wide research around the University and innovation around the University including management and direction of UH's research support Technology transfer and many compliance functions for the seven years before that Vassilis Sirmos served as the associate vice chancellor for research at the University in that capacity He worked on a range of projects including developing major research facilities such as the Center for Microbial Oceanography Research and Education Seymour Dave Carl Seymour the state's only laboratory to be rated lead premium lead platform lead platform Platinum I get it Vassilis obtained his PhD at Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta in 1991 in Electrical Engineering since 1991 he served in the Department of Electrical Engineering at UH Manoa Where he was a professor there? He also served as associate dean of the College of Engineering He spent a sabbatical lead with the Boeing company as a research fellow his interests include this is important Geometric and algebraic approaches in linear system theory everybody my wife and I talk about little else computational algorithms Methods for signal and image processing robust optimal filter design in systems medical imaging and prognostics and diagnostic methods related to condition-based maintenance system across the board it touches everything He's the author or co-author of more than a hundred journal and conference papers and the book called optimal control second-edition John Wiley 1995 he was an associate editor of circuits systems and signal process they wouldn't find out about that He has served in numerous international scientific conferences and committees his research has been funded by the National Science Foundation The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency There must be you work the Office of Naval Research the National Air Systems Command The Naval Sea Systems Command I could go on the Air Force Research labs at Wright Patterson the Army Research Labs Again the Boeing company Hawaiian Electric Company that we hear the last hour And Hamamatsu photonics. He's been a consultant for the Canada France Hawaii Telescope CFHT Innovative Solutions Nova Soul we know them science technology international and others He's a Walter well over make that a Boeing well over fellow a member of the advisory board of Hawaii Technology Development Venture program a member of the Sigma what is it X I? Research organization and a senior member of IEEE but of course we would assume that Tonight we'll see if we can get him to tell us how research is doing at UH. It's most productive areas It's successes and challenges. It's patents Commercialization and sale and what he sees for the future. Wow. Let's begin with the glamour vesselist We need to know what's hot in research at Manoa what research what fabulous Famous researchers are here now the discoveries and how the discoveries will change our science our community and our world Let's dive in and talk about disruptive science and science disruption is always good, right? So tell us about research and innovation at UH Manoa So let me start Jay from how we organize our innovation portfolio and it always starts with the excellence So we're looking how to strategically invest the next 24 months and therefore we're Partitioning our portfolio in five areas without without saying that these are the only areas We always being opportunistic, but these are the five areas. We've been working for a long time So without any surprises One of our hubs is ocean sciences climate sciences climate change conservation biology So that is always mostly mostly saw it as you know But there are in other campuses as well But mostly saw us that is actually one of the premier institutions in the country in the world And that is something we're excellent. We're outstanding and we need to invest in the future So we maintain our excellence The next one which it's not a surprise to anybody either is astronomy and I say astronomy But it actually is much more than that when I say astronomy is not just telescopes astronomy for us is instrumentation optical systems space We have a lot of research in space. We have a lot of recent research on mission support for Mars So there are a lot of areas under that That hub if you will and we've been doing extremely well This is a very important area for the university probably the university's world renowned for our research and instrumentation and then we're looking at areas where they're very important to our state and then one of the most important for us is Wealthness and health wellness and medical sciences cancer center our jobs Medical school not only because of the great research they do for infectious diseases for diabetes But also because they train great doctors. That's the innovation and whenever people ask me about medical school and a lot of a lot of Outside people sometimes says isn't the medical school expensive to run and the answer? Yes it's very expensive and we're going to support it and the answer and The question I have for them. Do you think this would have been a better place without a medical school without a cancer center? Would you like to live here? So that's the investment in that area. It's very important for us I even for the cancer center for right now you go to precision medicine personalized medicine You look at our ethnic diversity Our ethnic diversity is unique, but the way our state looks today The world is going to look 20 25 years from now So medicines and treatments that they are developed for for us They're going to be applicable for everybody in a decade or two And then of course it's a very we are an island community So energy is a big part of our portfolio. It's a big part of our word for enterprise and innovation And agriculture one we touch sustainability is a big area and we've been good We have been very good and because we want to be good stewards So I'm Ethan Allen host of likable sign very close to me is High-performance computing data intensive science data visualization Cybersecurity it touches everything else we do from astronomy from ocean from medicine From energy. So that's the way we are organized in our research and this institution is one of the best in the country Yeah, you know, I don't think people realize we we touch a little here and a little there We see newspaper article about this of that, but you know to hear you say talk about those five areas it makes me realize that it's enormous and it's world-class and we have this Enormous organ of information and data and research happening right here now. It's fabulous what you're describing. I I'm really impressed. I'm more impressed than I was before you started actually. So let me let me say this though It also it serves science It serves the world in terms of dealing with you know other institutions around the world and being at a par or better Then many of them, but it also serves the community. Yep, so you get it going in all directions Relative to every year in 2017 and the research if you think about the research that this institution does He has a broader impact for this community as I say Can you imagine the state without a medical school? Can you imagine this state without an oceanography program? That is one of the best in the country. We just realize where we are We're in the middle of the ocean Can you imagine the state without being pioneer in astronomy? It has a much broader impact We do research in agricultural system. We do research in energy. It has a broader impact And a lot of these things are going to save our state Yes, you know you have people in southwest who understand about sea level rise and climate change They're going to give us advice. They're going to help us save ourselves as and when it comes to us Yeah, so the climate change is real first of all and the school of ocean earth science and technology Saw as it is one of the best schools in that area. They actually work with the state They work with DLNR in order to Develop policies especially for sea level rising and if you think about it our tourism is Most of it is in Waikiki if it goes one foot If the sea level rises one feet then you start one foot You're going to have a lot of issues a lot of issues So I mean the mission for the city council for the state legislature is to listen to your scientists because they do come around They offer their thoughts. They're very community minded more and more as far as I can see and Government has to listen to them because they hold the keys to our future. They can save us If we listen to them. Yeah, it's they do great research We're very good at that and where we want to push now the envelope is also we want to push the envelope innovation We want to create more revenue. We have an excellent portfolio in extramural funds We're around four hundred million dollars to four hundred and fifty. I would create eight thousand jobs I don't know if people understand that we employed just another extramural funds. These are not state funds These are funds we compete And we get in the state and we create eight thousand jobs for these four hundred million dollars But we need to take this Further we need to create an innovation economy We need to create a workforce that is ready to get it into any type of a economy knowledge based economy Whether it's here or global and everybody talks about oh, we need to create all the jobs for the kids to stay here I take a different tack on that. Yes, we need to do that But in my opinion we need to create an economy innovation economy that even if we send our kids Outside of this state is not a bad thing. It's a great thing to experience Different things, but when they decide to come back They should be able to come back to well paying job or a job as well paying as they want to have in the mainland So that to me is much more important than hey, let's keep all our kids here on the island We can't you can't so we have to figure out how to make the best of what we have Trained and best we can and as you say or for them the opportunity to come back the environment to come back to and when we come Back from this break vessel us We're gonna you're gonna tell me how I will try We're gonna tell me how we're gonna do that really important question would be right back with this other sermons Thank you for watching think tech. I'm Grace Chang the new host for a global connection You can find me here live every Thursday at 1 p.m. We'll be talking to people around the islands or visiting the islands who are connected in various aspects of global affairs So please tune in and aloha and thanks for watching I'm Ethan Ellen host of likable science here on think tech Hawaii every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m. You'll have a chance to come and listen to the news I'm Ethan Ellen host of likable science here on think tech Hawaii every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m. You'll have a chance to come and listen and learn from scientists around the world Scientists who talk about their work in meaningful easy to understand ways They'll come to appreciate science as a wonderful way of thinking way of knowing about the world You'll learn interesting facts interesting ideas.  We're back. We're live here on research in Manoa with the Silas Seamos Who is the the center if you will of research in Manoa these the? Vice president of research and innovation since 2013 and he's talking about you know how it works up there And what it means to the state one of the things to come up in a break is you know This is really the intellectual center of the juggernaut if you will of the state of the state's thinking in advance and Is recognized I can tell you from our shows on research It's recognized around the world as excellent. I don't think people fully appreciate that and your point also that you know Yes, we can train them and yes, we have to understand many of them are going to go away But we can get them back and the trick is when they come back or when they think of coming back There's us. There's a what do they call it a cloth mother? Yes a cloth mother for them How do we do the episode? Oh, that's a that's a very tough question. They will take actually days to answer but We need to create some of these jobs in order to create some of these jobs You need to create opportunities in order to create these opportunities. You need to create a small business environment That does engineering the science that's computing the cybersecurity energy So we need to actually nurture our small businesses. We need to nurture our startups So we need to teach our students not to be just a good employee But also to be a good employer. So they got it has Innovative skills.  It is a lifelong Experience and how we do that how we integrate that in the curriculum. It's a tricky situation So we need to train students not only to be good employees, but also to be good employer So that's I think the trick here Well, I can just some of the icons that I've seen you have the shy list school. Yes at the pace Pacific Asian Center for Entrepreneurship is Susan Yamada. Yes Scott Yamada, whatever Susan. Yeah, and she's gonna come on the show pretty soon And and you know and you have the innovation Center, which used to be the David Lassner building Yes, yes, now they got another David Lassner. It's your building too, and you know you got these you know icons of Teaching people entrepreneurship teaching how to collaborate. Yes, and make business you have to accelerate. Yes, I accelerate you age is another activity, so First of all, let me go back to pace and as I tell Susan Yamada and the Dean of the of the business school Panzer Olli Pace is not just the Entrepreneurship Center for UH Minoa pace should be the Interpreneurship Center for UH System and they have done my knifes and job They have created programs beyond having a beautiful infrastructure nowadays They have created programs like the business plan competition the venture world the startup part and we can paradise So they create that activity the students come in the faculty. It is a great It is a great program. So kudos to them and and we like to To work with them all the time and support them and now we have the innovation lab Which is a co-working space it is in the mill Movie about that. It was very interesting. Yeah, how it worked. Yes, and it is in the middle of Over the campus where all the traffic the student traffic takes place is at close to the warrior rec center So it is a place where people can go can do projects. It's it's it's a good opportunity It's a good thing. We want to put more spaces like that on campus and in other campuses We're working also with Capulani community cause to put a space like that I will be working with UH Hilo to put a space like that and wouldn't be wonderful to create and Dedicated building for co-working space incubator startups for the university This is something that it's very dear to me and I would like to do in the near future You go to a lot of research one institutions like Mino and you see across the street. There is a Co-working space that does all the incubation for the startups. It does the accelerator programs technology transfer It's nice funky beautiful. So I think these are some of the things we need to To push for we need to expose our students to this type of activity now. What about the used to be known I'm not sure it's called the same thing anymore But the office of technology transfer and development help you get patents give you some money for protecting your property Yes, so we are just finishing up or breaking up the office and putting it together a little bit differently So we are out to their Advertising we're trying to include the chief innovation officer who is does more than just the patents and that the technology transfer But also that person will overlook the UH ventures nowadays. That's a better idea Yes, it's a broader idea. So we take also equity in our startups So the university invests in some of our startups and we take equity so we put some skin in the game and we want this These companies to to actually succeed and it takes one or two right? We're gonna find many but you're gonna take one or two Yeah, you have a success. It's a leadership thing. Everybody follows that. Yes and then the third part of that is we are creating an office of strategic grand developments and Especially to deal with small business innovation research SBIRs and STTRs are faggot. They are extremely good in life in writing grants We want to create a vehicle for them to write more SBIRs SBIRs and STTRs There's money out there still there's still money out there for that. Yes. Let's cross our fingers, you know, I think part of this Developing this mindset of innovation and commercialization and having a business so those kids can come back again It's coming downtown and I really appreciate you coming downtown talking to me Appreciate the research of Minoa show that's organized by Sowest and so many other scientists You come from the university sit here and and put it out so that people can see it and they do watch it and they're interested in it Just today earlier today. We had a meeting Think tech with one of our prospective guests who is one of the managers of one of the downtown office buildings and they were talking about Building a system in their building that would be like a commercial like a downtown serious business Co-working space where there'd be a place to park or park your bike and would be a shared space with all the accoutrements of an office building Right here right down the block from the capital interests and from the business and from the government And that would be a fantastic connection for the university to have to insinuate itself And to have access to all these business services. What do you think? Actually, this is great, right? Co-working space downtown or in Chinatown or kakak or you see young people like to be downtown That's where the action is they like to be at kakak. Well, they like to be now in Chinatown You see a lot of this co-working space incubator space is a I'm gonna open up and I think they're gonna do well and what I have to tell is one of the First times that you see as you said the business community has taken that movement seriously You have a white business round table a chamber of commerce. Yeah, they ask the banks They have actually Embrace that idea and if you do not have these entities embrace that idea, you're not gonna go very far Be substrate is a tough place to be so you need these bigger businesses to welcome you, right? And they have actually there have been very supportive. We have the Hawaii business round table innovation initiative They have been such support is not only for the university, but for everybody out there. So these are great things Hopefully we're gonna see more of that and we're gonna see our legislature actually to To appreciate that and not only by saying it but also funding it. Yeah, it's it is a good thing It's a very high priority. It's a future of the state really I mean, we have to we have to develop this kind of as an alternative to tourism Yeah, we have to hold the kids or at least train them really well here the university is really in many ways I've said this for many years is our future and We have to support it even if it hurts we have to support it But let me let me let me turn to money for a minute. Okay in that piece I was reading from in my opening, you know, they said that That the Marcy Greenwood wanted to have a billion dollars and she saw it as an income as a business itself Yes, because the billion dollars comes in and it comes to researchers and it's spent on research and it filters down through the community And and we have a substantial business You mentioned earlier a few minutes ago that last time we looked it was four hundred million. Yes How do we get from four hundred million to a billion? Yes, sorry But this this is a really Tough question in the sense that people need to understand and you don't wake up one morning And you say now I'm going to double my research expenditure and to give you an idea is To double something you need first of all to have the infrastructure that is physical infrastructure but also it is Intellectual capital infrastructure The idea is now you for example now our flagship institution, which is Manoa if you look at that research infrastructure over there Yeah, physical in buildings How can you double your research when your buildings are limited and they are in such poor state? How will you be able to attract these? Researchers and faculty into that type of infrastructure a really good question So there are a couple ways someone is going to have to find either you're going to find the infrastructure Or you're going to have to find the intellectual capital the university cannot do both So we have you know, we're out there. We are trying to educate the legislature We're trying to put our requests together the president is doing magnificent job for doing that But unfortunately someone is going to have to pay something to go from 400 million to a billion And then on top of that sequestration came in it was lifted. Now sequestration is back in the talk We don't know how the legislature this session. No, but I'm talking about the federal job Okay, so it's a very different environment federal government right now how research and development budgets are going to say I don't want to say suffer, but how they're going to survive where all these R&D money going to shift is it going to be very targeted or is going to be open All of these are questions that are very difficult right now The environment is not the best. Hopefully certain areas were good at going to survive going to do well And therefore we're going to be opportunistic Yeah, hard question hard. That is a very hard Yeah, so I mean what can we do leaving it, you know in this in this discussion? What can we do? What can the public do what can a legislature do? What can the university do? to raise the money to achieve that goal and to you know bring this to sort of a Global funding position. Yeah, I think what the legislature could do is actually Find our See it capital improvement requests the capital improvement requests at least will bring our physical Infrastructure up to par with our competition Once we have that we can go out there and hire the best of the brightest in order to increase our Extra-neural funding if we don't have that how are you going to bring people right there? You have to compete with other institutions and our peers or at least the most peers as a research Institution is the University of Washington or a good state. So You you know, maybe we need all to go take a tour and Compare facilities and compare infrastructure. Yeah, was it the cost of bringing infrastructure up would be about 500 million Yes, I think it will be around 500 million. So, you know to to close our show I'd like you to I'd like you to speak to the public Facilice service and tell them what they should be doing and by the way, you could you could fold in the legislature, too No, I as I said What I want everybody to take away from from this today is that the University of Hawaii system is a unique Institution we are 10 campuses that research like super institution is menor and it is one of the best institutions in the country and we need to be extremely proud of its success and actually celebrate its success be proud and Have pride in whatever we do We want our kids to be exposed to the best and menor and our u8 system is one of the best educational systems in the country You know when we were doing a white public radio a few years ago, maybe 10 There was a popular bumper sticker and it said have you hugged your researcher today?