Okay, this is, this is a talk about how I corrupted survey results and maybe ruined a business. Maybe it's in smaller letters because I think I did, but I'm not positive. But firstly I'd like to thank conference organizers who are here, all the other speakers, they've been so many great talks I got to attend since I've been here, unfortunately, many more than I missed. And that's why everybody here for spending a piece of your morning listening to me talk about my biggest professional failure. So with that said, let's talk about me for a minute. There's a big risk of talking about yourself at a conference like this, because everybody's going to think this is just some big elaborate exercise in egoism. I swear this is not an ego booster for me. If I was going to do that I'd talk about something I was proud of probably. But this story is about a terrible thing that I did, not that happened to me since I was kind of complicit in it and it was totally preventable. I'd like to believe that if I, looking back on it, if I'd heard a talk like this then, maybe it could have been avoided. No guarantees there, so if you're in a bad situation as well, I don't make any promises. More briefly about me, I'm the CTO of the company called Life.io. We're a small company based out of Philadelphia. We're not hiring right now, but that doesn't mean we're not fun to talk to. So you can find us and have some team members here as well. They're awesome. I'm okay. We like to talk about code every so often. I live with my wife and our two cats in Vancouver, Washington, which is just outside of Portland. The cats are not as thrilled about the holidays as we are. I'm 35 years old, so I've been programming for about nine years. Most of it will be at this point. I think I finally flipped that switch last year. And I've loved my career with about one noted exception, which we're talking about. And in that time, I've come to understand two traits about myself that are pretty fundamental to this story. And they're probably, and it's also probably relevant for just background about me. So I'm a lot higher strong than I'd like to be. It's probably coming through right now. I'd like to pretend it's not there sometimes, but every time I do, it seems to manifest in a way that I didn't expect. It's made interviews very hard for me in my career. I'll go to the thing, I'll go to it and start putting such a high level of importance on it, like, this is the job I need to have. And if I don't get it, I don't know what I'm going to do and who's going to hire me if I don't get this one. They all talk to each other. And then if I do get the job, that becomes even harder. I spend all of my time convinced I'm about to get fired at any moment. There's always this dagger just dangling over the top of me. It's not the best feeling, I swear. And it's led to a higher level of output for me, probably. I don't know if that's good. It's definitely put me in uncompromising situations. I'll commit to things that I shouldn't commit to. Say I've got just this herculean level of work covered and then work constantly for like weeks on end. I also don't handle confrontation well, and that's not to say I'm constantly screaming at people and losing my temper left and right. I actually quite the opposite. I'll retreat wholesale and just kind of check out of that conversation. I don't want to do it. I think there's something that was not a passive aggressive issue that the retreating that can be read is that sometimes it's really I just the idea of two human beings screaming at each other as adults in a professional context, especially, is really ridiculous in my opinion. I think the only noted exception is maybe my sister and me at the holidays. Thanksgiving is just around the corner. She's coming to visit. It's going to be great. I know these are not particularly unique characteristics. I think they're probably very relatable to a lot of people in the room. But for the purpose of the story, I think they're worth noting. But so let's get to it. In 2006, Ruby was version one nine. Rails was in version one, I think my notes might not be exactly right on this. Beyonce had just released her second album. And I had just finished earning a Masters of Library Science, which, you know, rocket ship to South Dakota, I was going places with that. So I started to look for jobs. I had been working somewhat with programming in the background with that. There is some tangential intersection in the library science program. A lot of those schools are now called Masters of Information. And so I found a job programming for a small micro consultancy in Manhattan. I say micro consultancy, you know, we're 16 people by file. So I say small company. There were five people total counting me at this micro consultancy for like rank and file, and then the boss. And we sat in this weird, perfectly square office with one office behind us. But anyway, so I got this job in Manhattan. It was a short train ride from my apartment in Brooklyn. It was it was pretty cool at the time. I was excited. I was more than excited, really. I was elated. I'd moved past the sphere, I guess, that my parents had had that I'd always be in school, which felt good. I was kind of realizing a lifelong dream, so to speak. I grew up in central New York, and moving to New York City was always something I wanted to do. My parents were terrified of New York City, and I was like, no, I'm going to go. This is my thing. So I was really excited to start programming, period. Like this was great. Like I had this job. There was no dress code. I could write the train to work, reading way too intellectual books from my weight class, it was great. And that optimism disappeared real quick. This was a terrible environment for me. I never forget. It's been great thinking about this so much, getting ready for this talk. I'll never forget the first time this happened to me. I said we sat in this perfectly square office with a door behind me to my boss's office, I think, right there. And so it's like the third day. All of a sudden I just hear this billowing yell come from behind me directed at the person who kind of sat, caddy cornered to me. And she was just getting dressed down for for what I now know to be a pretty insignificant bug.  Like that's terrible. I'm never going to do that. I did it quite a bit. Everybody was severely isolated. I said we sat in this weird square office where we had four corner desks all facing into the wall. Say what you will about the open office plan that was really popularized these days. Creating a circumstance where you're all in one room but can't talk to each other at all is a little bizarre. And it was even more bizarre when you consider that the boss would kind of monitor us in this Orwellian fashion. If we heard cross talk like, hey, how was your weekend? Or what are you working on? Whatever. I remember I routinely hear, do you guys not have enough to do? You got time to talk? Like what's going on there? And I was like, oh, sorry. I'll go back to my corner. Like that's fine. I was actually anecdotally on this.  I kind of wonder if you're taping into the live stream right now. That would make my day, honestly. I was chastised for asking for help, which is weird. There was a time I was working on something and he was bragging about how good he was at JavaScript. I'm terrible at JavaScript. And I said, hey, can I get some help on this? I'm not very good at JavaScript. And he said, well, you need to get better. Oh, okay. Well, I thought that's what I was doing. But I was also criticized for not seeking help subsequently if something took so long. This is in a book called The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists. There's this concept called the double bind that narcissists will engage in. Will there present one set of rules to you? And if you don't accomplish your task in that set of rules, the rules change. So you can never win, really. So I'm criticized for asking for help, criticized for not getting help. I'll just not talk to anybody. That seems like the way to go with this. I was actually called at home on one occasion.  I had laryngitis. And I sent an email saying, hey, I can't make it in today. And he literally called me and said, where are you? I was like, I can't come in. I can hear my voice. It was terrible. It was overall a really terrible environment for an anxious librarian who hates confrontation. It was pretty rough. But you got to pay the bills. And I made a pretty go of it. I made an OK go of it. I got to be competent, I would say. It's probably not how I thought of it at them. I keep thinking of this notion of sink or swim. And we say that phrase a lot. But what that's really kind of getting at a little bit is life or death. And so if you don't die, you live. And that seems pretty important. So if I'm succeeding in my version of it in this atmosphere where it's hard to succeed, I'm saying to myself, I am amazing at this. I'm like, wow, I took this over. I'm doing great. And I was doing things that I think a lot of developers do as they start to level up. I started to pursue more learning opportunities where they presented themselves. I went to meetups. I was an active participant in a Drupal forum. I read a book about Ruby, despite being told not to waste my time. I think I started to piece through the first pick of textbook. I learned enough to, I think, in hindsight, be really dangerous, which brings me to this project. So after a couple months, I get my first solo project. And it was a pretty straightforward survey application. The client needed to make decisions about their business for the coming year. So to do that, they were going to aggregate feedback from your users, asking them 25 questions spread out over five pages.  And it is. We have a lot of tools. We have a lot of tools now to do this. We could probably just do it in SurveyMonkey, honestly. But SurveyMonkey doesn't exist. I'm in a position where Ruby isn't on my radar. Rails isn't there. Erlang is not. I'm terrified to ask for help. And the only things I know are PHP and MySQL. So you can guess where this is probably going. The thing I built was complete and utter trash. I kind of bummed that Eric Patterson is over in the other room, because I could brag about this being the true marvel of modern engineering. So it was seven PHP pages where each one submitted to the next page. So every page that a user would load in its browser, like Survey1.php, Survey2.php, began with this chunk of custom PHP and MySQL writing directly to the database, and then you'd have HTML of the questions. It was pulling the answers out of the query string. It was really bad. And there was no validation happening. There was nothing even remotely resembling an object. Probably most importantly, nothing verifying the data ever saved. So it was a complete failure. It took me about a week to realize how badly it really was broken. When the user began the survey, I don't know why I built it like this, probably because I knew I was going to have to cover it up. When the user began the survey, a marker would tick off in the database saying, Survey begun. And when they finished the survey, there'd be a marker that ticked us, and survey ended. So I knew when a user started to survey and finish the survey and didn't drop off. And so I knew that if I had, I knew a certain number of those, I expected a certain number of answers to correspond to them. And I realized I didn't have all of the answers. Those were getting lost. So there's this record of 100 surveys being taken after the first week. I'm putting numbers on it. I think it was actually more than that, which is terrifying. Then I have the record of 100 surveys being taken. I think the drop-off rate was about 30%. So for every 100, I had 70 sets of answers. And this was bad. The client paid us for something that didn't work fundamentally or was paying us for something that didn't work fundamentally. But also, they were going to base their business off of this. So I should have stopped. I should have paused this, taken it down, apologized to my boss, apologized to the client, said we're going to fix the problem. I need a little help getting this set up because I don't know what's wrong. I'm not as good as I thought I was. But again, I'm terrified. I'm anxious. I'm like, this is going to be the thing. I'm going to get fired. So I hatched a plan. I realized that I could come in early and stay late and spend a big chunk of my day all day, every day, monitoring these results as they came in. And when I realized that something got dropped, the user started and finished, but I didn't have answers, I just make them up. I can just insert the values directly into the database. I think this person wanted this and this and this. It seemed a lot better than getting yelled at. So I'm making up these answers, saving them to the database for the survey that the client was using to inform their business direction. So again, I say maybe room to business. I say maybe room to business. All I know is they don't exist anymore. That's all I can confidently say about it. There was none the wiser at the end of it. I worked constantly for that whole month that the survey ran. And in fact, this is really the first time I've talked about it. No one ever has known about this. I got super fast at covering it up. I got super fast at covering up my mistakes. It was pretty intense in terms of stress. But at the end, the client was happy with what they knew. We have happy given their circumstances. Let me paraphrase that. And the end result, I guess, that made everybody happy was that my boss got paid. So not long after that experience, I left that company. It was a bad environment for me. I don't think there's any debating that. The guilt of...this was a client, remember? So we continued to do work with them. And the guilt of sporadically interacting with them and saying, hey, based on survey results, we want to build this thing. And my hand was going, yeah, based on those survey results. Okay. So the bad environment was a good enough reason to leave. But I really couldn't handle the guilt of interacting with that client in on-going capacity. I was hired at another consultancy that wasn't without its own set of problems. But those were problems that we worked to solve as a team. So let's take a look at what, if anything, we can learn from this. And I think the really obvious thing that comes out first and foremost is never hire me. I mean, I'm up here literally telling you about how I hired a client out to drive and how bad an employee I was. But, you know, maybe not. I like to think I bring this experience wherever I go. It's certainly, you know, I'll sporadically consider it in a lot of circumstances. And I promise I won't ever intentionally sabotage a project again. I wrote sabotage here, and I actually mean intentionally now. I'm sure I might do it accidentally. I'm prone to mistakes, but I won't scream at people if they make mistakes. And I'll never cover it up, especially when I know I've made it, I'll say something. And I know what I want to be as a manager. I'm a CTO now, which is still a weird concept to think of. But I know what I don't want to be in that position, so I'm still trying to learn what I want to be. But I think there's also a bigger concept to consider to all of this. Let's consider environments for a minute. In isolation, it's hard to understand why something exists the way it does to explain why this picture is so ridiculous of me. But if you put it into an environment that it starts to make a little bit of sense in, you're like, oh, okay, I get it. They're at a soccer game. It's still pretty ridiculous when you think about it, but that's my own cross the bear. But I think importantly, it's important to remember that I think software is really a product of the environment it was built in. The wells of business opportunity, and user happiness can be very shallow. If you're in an environment where condescension, fear, selfishness, egoism, those are the sort of feelings that you are, how things are run. You'll start to experience issues with retention. And I think when I say in retention, that seems like I'm only concerned about people working there, but it extends to employees, it's clients, it's users. Clients will go out of business, maybe you're at fault, maybe you're at fault. Users won't want to use their product. These problems will manifest in ways that we can't really even anticipate. They're kind of unknown unknowns. But conversely, what about a communicative, educational, transparent and positive environment? It's something more collaborative. You're going to build great things in that generally. I never hear a successful product owner give an interview saying, well, in our office, we don't encourage people to work together and they're not allowed to talk. And if a light mistake is made, I dress them down thoroughly. Maybe, I don't know. I believe it's genuinely true that people love using software that was built by people who love what they do and love where they do it. In my story, I think about the time I spent on an insane cover-up. I didn't love doing that work. That was actually like any minute now I'm going to get found out and I'm a fraud and you deal with so much from that. I could have just had help or some positive guidance, a mentor, somebody to collaborate with. But we also do need to remember that collaboration is tricky. It's a double-edged sword, so to speak. It means different things to different people. What if I was forced to work with the person who was making my life miserable?  No, I'm not going to do that. Oops, sorry. So you need to learn how you work best, but then also learn how the people around you work and figure out a way for you all to work together in that shared space, on shared terms. And share feedback about feedback. They talked on this yesterday. It was a great talk. If you can watch it through there, awesome. If you can go back and watch it, please do that. We don't only need code reviews. I think we also just need feedback about how we work together and how we're doing towards each other. And while we're fostering collaboration, let's encourage learning. And I mean, go beyond a company book club and attending a meet-up, which are great things. I love those, but if you kind of coordinate off learning to just those areas, it's harder to have it extend everywhere. So make it a part of your every day. Some level of cross-training. Check in with people. Questions you can ask are, hey, could you tell me about what you think of this? I do this all the time. I ask people, hey, I'm having trouble with this issue. Can you get a second set of eyes on it? I'm not sure of my approach. Naming things is impossible. So what do you think of this word? Why did you choose that approach you did? How do you help in a non-condescending manner? Sometimes people give signs that they could use help but are afraid to ask for it, and you can just say, hey, how's that survey you're working on going? If you need anything, I'm available. Somebody had asked me that question. It would have, oh, thank you. Build a culture of code reviews and insight and teaching. I feel a little awkward saying this just to a quick sidebar. At Lightbuy, we just got done with a big sprint, but we've made this promise to ourselves that we'll come back and fix them later. I'll talk about that more in a minute, but I put that note here for some reason. Oh, let's go through and talk about it later. Thinking back on the story through the lens of today's environment, I was a pretender. It was really hard to find an image for that, and then I remembered I loved the pretender, so worked out. That sink or swim mentality, again, led to some kind of learning, but what kind? A life or death comparison. I'm swimming, and I feel like I'm Katie Ledecky. In reality, I was probably one of those people in the Titanic that was taking everybody around me down as I flailed about aimlessly. I learned to be very dangerous and not do my job well. I came in cowboy coding at that next consultancy I went to, and that was immediately shut down because they weren't going to scream at me. They were going to fix the problem, and I was put in something that really resembled a mentorship program. That was really great for me, and I'd like to think I built off of that. That needs to be kept in mind. I look at the slide and it cracks me up because it's true, we make mistakes and we learn from mistakes, and some of the best learning I've done has been kind of getting confused on something, hacking around until I fixed it, or until I got to work and then I improved it. I think we have a pattern for that. But beyond that, I think there is also so much phenomenal and motivated talent coming into our communities and more experienced people are getting to work with new people and new perspectives. Megan Tew made a great point about this in our talk on Thursday. I'll go back and watch that one. That was excellent. And more experienced people are learning the work of being a leader, and that's tough. There was a great talk yesterday that I saw him earlier. I think you left. But it was about the senior developer as their career prolongs. You can't extend to this role of being a leader in your organization and your community, and that's important. It's something that you have to learn. You can learn to sling all the code you want, but learning how to interact with people and lead effectively is a separate skill set altogether. Caitlin Parve had a great talk about teaching on Thursday. I'm really unfortunate that I'm at the tail end of a lot of good talks. I feel like I should have gone first, and then the good talk is going to come afterward. New developers can learn a lot as well. And that goes beyond... Code schools are doing great. They're teaching patterns, they're teaching syntax, but they're not teaching the experience of working in software. And that's not the classic circumstance of oh, I can't hire you because you don't have experience, but you don't have experience because I can't... since no one will hire you. And that's the kind of negotiation for practices that they haven't used professionally. And the occasional compromises that business does require, that's the callback to what we just had to deal with at my company. It wasn't ideal, but sometimes you have to bend a little bit to continue to exist. And we all have an opportunity to be on very ambitious and thoughtful teams, where feedback is given and heard safely, constructively, and along with compliments, opinions, ideas, which brings up culture.  It's kind of your obligation. So be aware of that when you're considering a company or even if you're uncertain about your current company and you're thinking about it a little bit, you can ask some questions. How in an interview can you go about promoting personal growth? What values are valued? In an interview, were you the first person to even bring up culture? That might be a small concern. I literally thought back on that job interview and I was too nervous to think about these things then, and also I was junior, so I didn't really know what I was doing, but these are things I wish I had thought of, so that's kind of where this list is coming from. I could have, this is the big one, I could have looked around, it was an on-site interview and did everything seem kind of off? Because if I walked into this weird room where four people are all pointing to corners and then there's a boss's door in the background, like, yeah, that seems a little weird. Everyone looked kind of bored, that's a warning sign. Is everybody sharpening daggers? They weren't doing that, but if they are, I'd get out of there. In a remote interview, a weird distributed team, but in a remote interview you can also pay attention to certain markers. Is there more than one person on your initial call? And if so, how are they interacting with each other? Does that seem tense? Is that kind of off-putting up? We have, usually when we do our first intro interview, it's me and another person who are probably more nervous than the person being interviewed, and we're very jokie about it, and that's kind of a good reflection about us as a company. But let's summarize just a little bit. I think we can practice, oh no, okay. My notes disappeared, so I'm just going to read out this line. I'm going to read it out. I think we can practice now an obtrusive collaboration. Again, going back, learn how you work, learn what makes you comfortable, learn how your coworkers work. It's got to be a little individualized, and learn to do that together. A shared agreed upon space and a shared agreed upon context. Allow free communication. Don't cut off people. Don't say don't ask for help. Those are very obvious. I think it's much more subtle than that. It's probably a talk about the language that can prevent help. I think the canonical example we have right now is using the word just. Just put that in a PHP page. Leverage the above to foster learning and growth. If you start to build this environment where this is safe, it'll kind of begin to snowball itself, but the thing about snowballs is parts will fall off, so make sure you keep it on its path and keep it together. Remember that the end result is reflective of the environment it's created. If you start to see a lot of issues boil up in your software, users are dropping off or if you have a retention problem before you look to fill the people, the gaps leaving, maybe you should take a look at your company and try to improve what's causing everybody to leave. If you have a lot of bugs maybe you should look at what's causing those bugs to boil up. Treat the actual disease and not the symptoms of it, I guess. Don't engage in massive coverups. Can't emphasize that enough. That is effort and talent misused. I promise you that every time. And don't sabotage other businesses. I guess maybe if they're competitors, it's something to consider. But in general I wouldn't say if they're nice people, don't do it. But so I talked really fast because I'm a little nervous, but thank you everyone for spending your time at RubyConf hearing me share my most humiliating professional experience. I really do hope you guys got something from this or maybe got caught up on emails you're meaning to send while you're here. Either way, I'm happy to take some questions. My name is Mike again. Call Mike 0-1 and get on Twitter. Twitter is not anything meaningful. I think that's probably true for most people these days. Yeah, thank you. So the question was, does the micro-consultancy still exist? Could they find out about this from the talk? So the answer to both things is yes. There are a few people who know the company I'm talking about and it's funny because they've made no effort to update their presence in the world since 2000s. Their footer of their website still says copyright 2006, but they're still there. So conceivably, yeah, they could find this out. I'm less worried about it these days. The joke was on my flight here, I connected in Salt Lake City and there was a guy who got on the plane who looked exactly like my old boss and I started to have a panic attack right there on this plane from Salt Lake to Cincinnati and then he was at the conference and I was like wait, no, what is happening? And I talked to him about it and he was like, no, I'm not your old boss. I'm somebody entirely different. People tend to look like each other, it happens. So... That's a good question. Yeah, I started to think about it as I was going to review it. Yes, do you have any advice for stop me if I'm paraphrasing, but preventing these type of failings how I'm kind of reading it is giving assistance if you're the only developer in the company. So that's tricky. It depends on your skill level. I'd say, first of all if a company needs a developer and they hire an entry level developer to do all the work that could belie certain problems like you might want to consider bringing in some consultant to help you for a little bit to get that leverage. You know, you can lean on the community. They help... In Portland we have a Slack channel where people regularly post help and questions to figure things out. Being your own person like the biggest challenge you're going to have I always think I was the sole developer at Life.io for a while and the biggest challenge I always hit with that is knowing how to expand and grow because there was nobody to whom I was answering as I made those mistakes so if I did make them I would just have to say to my partners, guys I messed this up I need to fix this, I need to figure out how to do it correctly. I might need to bring an outside help and then as we grew the team I was... I kept this story in mind, I kept that experience in mind and knew that less experienced people would need a better support structure and I was going to be a big part of that. So I kind of tiptoed around, I don't have an exact answer for only one person. That's a tricky narrative to go being lone wolf is sort of if you live in San Francisco it's not an island I guess. So the question is, do you have any advice that you'd give to management to fix that situation? I can speak for my personal experience, how I've approached it which is I know who I don't want to be and so I try to encourage people to always ask questions first and foremost and I don't want to do it in a manner that's overbearing or saying this is how I want it to be built because I want other opinions and other thoughts on this to naturally emerge and then we can talk about it. Create an environment where if you're the only person that's trickier if there are multiple people look at each other's code, talk about approach and if a mistake is made and no one realizes it but that person make sure it's clear that they can say it and it's safe. You should have regular check-ins outside of that experience, outside of just that work to say okay this is your first check-in and you're fired because this was terrible. You failed at that point. So I would say keep touch points encourage learning, encourage questions. Yeah.


Uh, when you can't stream because you have a meeting. But, no no no no no no no no no no. This isn't real, okay? This picture's gonna get meme'd so hard. Oh my gosh. I didn't even realize it. I didn't even realize it. This picture's gonna get meme'd so hard. Genshin Impact on the laptop. Okay dude. Frick! Unbelievable. On the TVs are Ginny's gun and trash. Actually, that's true. This is all Ginny's guns and trash. Uh, one true grandpa's. Wow, we look old. I didn't realize how old we looked in this picture. This kid looks the funniest. You know what's the bad part?  Like, the bad part is that it actually fits. Old Rich looks like his favorite hobby is making stew. The old Rich looks like... I just feel like... Perverted neighbor old man. I don't know why that's what I think whenever I see this. Half of it was never boiled water in 29 years of her life. Why is this tagged as drama?  There's no way she has never boiled water.  I like to bland food actually. You don't boil water though. That's like... You don't boil water though. What do you mean you don't boil water? Yeah, well. Okay. This thing known in the Lion Super Show.  And when I say that, I mean that. And people think that I'm kidding. But I have no life skills. Do you know how to drive? I'm like, no. Do you know how to ride a bike? No. She doesn't know how to drive? No. Do you know how to cook? Noa? Really? Have you boiled water? No. No. How do you make pasta? She doesn't. How old are you? I'm 29. Ah! No, I'm 42. I don't cook. I don't cook. I need to boil water. I've had one of those things. Have you ever had a craft dinner before? You know what's interesting? Some of these people that have been like, like pro gamers and stuff for like 10 plus years and they started like, they became pro gamers early on. Like whenever eSports was first starting to become a thing and they were like 16, 17, whatever. It's actually somewhat believable. Cause wasn't Haifu like, she was like MLG, wow player. Like I had a real job before I streamed. You know? Like no, even Miskiv had a real job before I streamed. I was an LCS league player. Same team as Faker. Yeah. Like MLG, BlizzCon. Like Haifu was like good at everything. Aswin wasn't pro at anything. It still doesn't have life skills. Aswin has life skills, okay?  What does Neymar do? CS go? Play soccer. Yeah, that's right. No way. That's so bad. That's so bad. Oh my gosh. Shrad decides to go all in. I love Shrad. Okay. Oh dude. Did I play like an open world game like this?  I just shoot everybody. Hell yeah, brother. Yep. And I'm sailing. No, this is not and I'm sailing. This is Shrad. Do you guys think council is three gaming? I've been to ask you this. You kind of like sent this to your chat a couple of times. I'm kind of curious.  So I'm trying to think like, okay, I understand the big and fat but juicy. I mean, I couldn't figure out the juicy part. Have you ever a van? Let me tell you, have you ever seen a Bugs life? It's like that big caterpillar. It's just like that. Yeah. I had thousands and thousands of cocks and I've never once go afterwards go. Hmm, that's a juicy cock. I never, not once. Then you weren't having some good cock, man. So have you ever looked at a cock? That's so beautiful. So nice and so great.  So I don't know.  That's really strange. You're welcome. You to picture that way. It's, it's a, it's very. I open it being.  It's like, oh, I got to stay away from that. You know, because that is like, what is that juice? You know, no, no, no shot. No shot. Well, sometimes there's a shot. Sometimes there's a shot train. True. He's talking about that clap. I think, right? Yeah. Yeah. Tiny man. People clap. I did do it all by myself. Okay. As you can see, I'm driving it all by myself, but he helped a little bit. Yeah. He helped a little bit, but I did it all by myself. Uh, Slick steals mine's BF. You're going to have two dents. Dumbass.  My ultimate has been stabbed. Shroud loses the 1v1. Shroud never loses the 1v1. Impossible. Wait, did he lose to birds? He's winning. I never played this, by the way. I never, I never played Red Dead Redemption. Two. No, I never played either one. The only, the only Red Dead that I played, I played Red Dead Revolver. Back in the day. I played the first one. I missed it? Frick. Sorry. My ADD kicked in. Sorry. This fan's stroking something. Okay. What is this? Okay. No. Hold on. I think this is the end of the game. I don't think so. Wait, really? Okay. I was, I was, I was hitting the, dude, I was freaking hitting the big wheel, dude. Look, that's not, listen. That's not, obviously not. That's not what I'm doing. As we're playing Mario Kart IRL. Dude, this is going to be good. We're going to do this. Look, this is going to be good. As we go, viewer knows the pain. Watch this one, then we'll go to my subreddit. We'll check out my subreddit. How was that? Nice. How are you on the same side? I know your pain. Really? Have you ever looked in a mirror? Because that's the pain I'm experiencing. I didn't know where this joke is going. Underneath it all, I'm just saying. Yeah. You already know where it's going. How's that? How are we on the same side? Already a legend in VR chat. VR chat legends. Is this, I'm just so scared to open up anything VR chat. Wait. VR chat legends.fandom.com. What? Why does this exist? As fan as a variety streamer on Twitch known for his background in vanilla World of Warcraft and WoW Classic. Aside from World of Warcraft, he's all plays various other popular games while attempting to be entertaining. Wait, what's that? Why attempting to be entertaining? It's attempting.  But he helped. Well, he tried.


Hi everyone, I'm Ricky Anderson and welcome to the Fort Report. So, the other day I was out lounging in my backyard reading a book and I fell asleep. It was a really sunny day and I guess I soaked up a little too much sunshine. Anyhow, later that night I went to the lanterns in the garden exhibit at the Botanic Garden and I made an interesting discovery about myself. I guess the best way to explain it is to show you. That's right. I glow. Everyone there thought I was part of the exhibit.  Excuse me, I'm going to call the Botanic Garden about this. Yes, you know I was the guy glowing? You don't pay. For more information about lanterns in the garden, visit fwbg.org. Here is a look at other events happening in and around Fort Worth in the next few weeks. For a listing of more events and city meetings, you can always check the calendar at the city's website.


So this is kind of tradition for us where we basically, you know have been doing these kind of TOC meetings at KubeCon It's just a way to you know introduce kind of how the TOC works, you know These aren't these people that are just magically hiding and all this wonderful stuff It's an open open process and so on so generally we'll go through kind of like a brief intro of you know How the TOC works then open up for questions and kind of see where things go from there So, you know, you know saw this a little bit, you know today You know CNCF's all about kind of making cloud-native computing Epiquitous and the TOC is basically there to kind of guide the technical side of the organization ensuring that projects are you know You know essentially cultivated, you know accepted and kind of guiding them that through that wonderful, you know process we have 11 lovely, you know individuals Unfortunately, just two of us were able to join today and you know I'll have them kind of maybe introduce them and introduce himself and talk a little bit about kind of your background and What you work on and then we'll kind of go through our journey of how the TOC operates For about 10 minutes and then maybe open it up for for questions for folks and if we end early and go to the party even better, so Do you want to maybe Cornelia you start? Sure, so Cornelia Davis, I have spent the last 10 years Working in developer platforms initially with cloud foundry and then about five or six years ago Started getting involved in Kubernetes still working at Pivotal at the time partnering with VMware and And then Heptio came into VMware and so got had a chance to partner with people like Joe Bita and Craig Mclucky as well So I've been doing Kubernetes for about five or six years and then I spent about 18 months at we've works Which is the company that coined the term get ops, which is really kind of an extension of dev ops for a platform like like Kubernetes and Very recently just in the last two or three months. I have joined Amazon All right, should we remove the yeah, yeah, I'm okay with it. I'm cool with it too. Yeah, okay So I'm Ricardo. I'm competing engineer at CERN in Geneva. I work on Our cloud deployments, we run a large private cloud on premises and we also use public clouds I'm Mostly focusing on Kubernetes and containerized environments but I do also a lot of networking and Software-defined networks and more recently some machine learning To support our scientists. So a lot of accelerators and integrating all of this in Kubernetes before that I did a Different of the things in at CERN as well. I was a developer for what we call our Worldwide LHC computing grid, which is a kind of large distributed environment that is a pre-cloud Something that would be very different if it would be redesigned today But that puts a lot of resources at the disposal of our scientists Yeah, and more recently I started working on the CNCF research and user group Which kind of tries to get to gather all the members of End users of the CNCF that has have similar requirements regarding batch like workloads and accelerators and Yeah, and since February this year. I'm in the TOC As a end user representative. So I help out in this area And I guess Chris Anizic I have the fun job of serving as CTO of the Oregon My team basically supports the TOC and kind of our technical side of the house and ensure our projects are healthy and in stable So governance structure, you know, we'll kind of go through and talk a little bit of how we're governed because a lot of people kind of get This kind of you know confused I think it's a little bit of you know inside baseball But I think it's kind of important to understand how the organization actually runs So we have kind of three main, you know parts of CNCF You know, we have the governing board who basically these are your essentially funders, right? You know, these are the people that are members of the organization They pay in that money is basically pulled together to go sustain the project these people who are on the governing board generally have no Say in how the technical projects work They're just there to come together and decide how the budget is spent So we could basically put on wonderful wonderful events like this like kube con or fun security audits and so on so You know, it's it's mostly vendors, but there are a mix of end-users like you know apple and Spotify part of the governing board the TOC You know, which is here. This is the technical body. It's a completely separate, you know organization, you know from the governing board It handles all the technical decisions which projects get accepted which projects, you know Get archived and we purposely separate, you know, the governing board the funding structure from the technical decisions So, you know the way we think about it is it is not a kind of it is it's not like a pay-to-play model It's a pay-to-sustain so all technical decisions are not influenced from the funders of the organization They may employ some of these individuals But you know it is the maintainers at the end of day and the TOC who make the you know technical decisions You know overall and then we have a third kind of structure the end user community Which essentially is end user organizations people who don't sell cloud native, you know Services or products, right? These are the actual consumers of the technology like a like an Apple or a CERN where Ricardo Works for AWS as a vendor. We give a special space for the end user community to basically work together collaborate share practices and essentially Safe space may not be the right word, but it's basically it's an area for them to Essentially not have vendors involved, but they have a formal role in governance So end users get to elect people on the TOC and they have representation there So these are kind of the three main tier structure of CNCF, you know for us that kind of work in the organization It's very obvious But a lot of people sometimes get confused that like oh do people like pay to get a TOC seat or how does this work and if It's like it's completely separate, you know on purpose We kind of separate technical governance from funding governance, which people get a little bit confused by and we also give end users a special voice and in the organization So one of the things that TOC puts together is something we call the TOC, you know principles These are essentially things that the TOC kind of abides by and kind of you know their decision You know how they think about making you know decisions So this was put together, you know a while ago by some of the early TOC members But generally we consider the CNCF as a kind of project-centric organization If you notice that you know if you're older KubeCon, there's project logos all over the place projects are for you know first and foremost You know, you know at the center less so of the organization Projects are self-governing, you know one thing a lot of people you know coming from different foundations and organizations get a little bit Confused is each project gets to kind of build their own governance model of how they run You know Kubernetes is very different from an envoy than a container D than a linker D And so on and we just find that as a Convenient way where each project is going to be different. They should be governed a little bit different It just has to be documented in public The TOC looks for very high quality high velocity generally projects, you know That's kind of what they generally look for sometimes they make bets We have this kind of no kingmakers rule we allow for competing and overlapping projects If you notice we have things like container D and Creo linker D and envoy all these things kind of overlap It could be in some way. We don't mean to like pick a project and have that one be like the only one true way To do things we do allow for competition We're not a traditional standards body. We don't basically deal with Old-school standards sometimes we have specifications, but the idea is we only promote technology or your specifications That actually have real-world Usage and so on so there's some other things, you know here that we kind of talk about but overall the whole Mission and organization put projects first project centrics and above all just like help projects become, you know better You know maturity models we have three main levels of you know projects at the TOC kind of works within the kind of decides where to guide projects through Sandbox incubating graduated three main levels. We kind of use that crossing the chasm analogy. I'm Talked about this a little bit, but essentially, you know sandbox projects. These are like early-stage projects We kind of expect them potentially to either be successful or die There's no guarantees Incubating things are a little bit more mature and we you know make a little bit more guarantees there and then graduated our projects that like your Company should be able to bet on with no concerns or worries and there's a whole kind of process that guide these projects through this potential You know maturity set of levels a lot of time when we do these meetings people are asking like How do I get a project and like, you know how this work? It's a fairly simple, you know process that you know I'll give a lot of credit to the TOC that they spend a lot of time kind of iterating and optimizing this sometimes That's two peoples like maybe like some people get a little upset because you know Sometimes it takes a while to evolve process when you have all these different organizations and members kind of working together But there's a fairly simple process Sandbox is very easy generally to kind of get into there's certain kind of Qualifications that you have to meet as part of the sandbox application and they're generally reviewed on a one to two months Basis, but it's meant to be kind of very lightweight We don't do a lot of marketing support for sandbox projects But the goal is to kind of make it easy to kind of get in and get cultivated within the organization Incubation and graduation the bar is significantly higher You know our TOC members basically Interview and users they do due diligence reviews It's a very kind of in-depth process if you ever kind of seen it publicly and the best part about this It's all documented publicly on get up none of this is done in private, you know at all You know I'm not going to go into this in detail because I think really did a fantastic job of not talking about the tags If you attended keynotes, but essentially what we've done is as the CNCF has grown into over a hundred projects It's just very hard to potentially have just a TOC focus and support all of them So we broke up into different kind of focus areas based on what people were interested in so we have things that cover security storage Runtime observability and so on. It's all broken apart, you know based on what people You know care about and focus on these tags basically serve as kind of an advisory function They help the TOC with potentially reviews and provide input based on their kind of specialties Because not everyone the TOC may be an expert on say observability and this has kind of helped us scale As an organization has been super. I think useful from my perspective, so I'm going to kind of you know go through I'm going to kind of skip and gloss over the you know tags if people have any particular questions on each of these things We're happy to kind of go through them But I think currently did a good job kind of covering some of these in the keynote, which is also online You know, I think really, you know, we kind of want to treat this as more kind of an interactive You know discussion. I have a couple questions for the TOC mostly around You know what they kind of see for the future of of you know CnCF in terms of which projects that we may be potentially interested in doing and kind of what we want to support in the future But I truly kind of want to open it up to folks that may have questions, you know out there, but you know So let's basically I'll start with a question kind of regarding, you know You know kind of the future and what people think about that and then maybe we kind of open it up to the audience to see if there's any kind of questions or you know Process concerns and so on but you know, the whole idea is to make this kind of an open and Discussion to get input from the community and help us evolve and become a better organization.  What do you think kind of holes are missing currently? You know in kind of the large landscape that we've built out in this organization over the last six years anyone want to Take that one? Yeah, I think we talked about this recently And I'm trying to remember what we talked about then, but I certainly have, you know, some thoughts along those lines I think that one of the areas if I recall correctly that we talked about was Be it really tracks against what's happening in the industry as a whole and one of those things, of course is more more More and more distribution and I'm talking about the edge And yeah, we have just the beginnings of some of those things So we have some Kubernetes projects that are Small footprint that are designed to go into these small devices and things like that But I think that there's still an awful lot that's missing to bring all of that together So there was certainly room for for projects that address the integration problem The the the distributed protocols and things like that. I think that's one of the areas for sure Yeah, so maybe maybe also because of my background I think one area that is also kind of interesting is all the ML machine learning things It's a lot of projects around but it's it's not really clear Where they fit even if we go to the tags when we start reviewing machine learning projects It's it's it's like do we go runtime or which which advisory group fits the best because it kind of covers a lot of things I think that area will also be quite important and the other the other part is this trend to to manage things that are not necessarily related to containers within this kind of cloud native world Integrating resources like projects like cross-plane what they are trying to do all this kind of bringing to to the second system things that are Were not traditionally seen as being part of it. I think this will be also be a trend So, I don't know how this will follow up, but I think it's something we should focus on Is there anything else like particularly from you know, you work basically at a research lab, right? You know, I remember back in the university work like working on things like slurm and using that like it's a whole like if you ever attend You know in HPC conference like super computer It seems like a whole weird parallel universe of folks that are doing Distributed computing at scale and have been doing it for a while and then you come to kubecon It's like there's all these folks in industry kind of doing similar things and I feel like these people just aren't Talking to each other. Yeah This is something that we we also deal internally because as the trend goes to to running things on Kubernetes Then why not do all the rest as well if we have all the experience and knowledge on it? There are some barriers that are more technical things like there's a lot of efforts with things like ruthless containers to run like in HPC environments which are kind of more I Am more tight in comparison to what we do elsewhere and other things like fair share More advanced scheduling in these tools. These are all things that are ongoing. I saw a couple of talks actually here at kubecon related to advanced scheduling adding things like Fairness and better priority definitions on scheduling. So this this is coming I don't know. I don't know how much will be like in the core of something like Kubernetes or Other projects that will will be plugged in but there's a place Ruthless is very interesting because it touches the whole stack the people working on it go from the kernel all the way to the end user tools So it's very interesting which scares me too But I think what you're talking about what I think is really interesting in this HPC space is that that there's all sorts of protocols in place for being able to Treat this highly distributed system, which we have to have because we need it for scale as a single system and and Most of what we do when we still talk about Kubernetes as we talk about Scheduling things on a cluster But what happens now when we need to schedule our HPC workloads across clusters and maintain state across those it's a It's a significant distributed systems problem. There was a big push towards Federation and now kind of Because some efforts were not so successful. We start looking more at multicluster and maybe doing things differently. So yeah, it's an interesting Change Definitely like if you ever have attended kind of both events, it's just so strange It's like literally parallel where worlds that just don't talk to each other as as much So what kind of one more question before we kind of turn over the audience So when one theme that has kind of come up in this conference at least that I've been you know talking to a lot of you know Users and and even vendors this whole notion of like security seems to be top of mind for for everyone Right, you know securing the supply chain definitely seems to be a theme, you know from your perspective on the TOC Do you see, you know, what are your thoughts of how we can enable? Projects, you know within our review system to be potentially more successful You know at this what can we kind of do to kind of improve the situation because we do have some Practices in place we do some security audits, but it just feels you know We have our own set of projects in CNCF the hundred twenty or so But then all those hundred twenty or so projects depend on you know, tens of thousand dependencies that have different You know levels of security and something you know I think about now on probably like a daily basis and definitely it's kind of permeated a portion You know of this conference Yeah, I mean what the first thing I would say is of course there's the security of security audits of the projects that that we have within the CNCF, but I just actually attended the pancake breakfast this morning and the topic was security there and what what is so interesting Is that I think that the whole security space In general the way that enterprises are still thinking about it is they have built these really rigorous models around the old architectures and And they're not quite they haven't quite come along for the ride yet And so I think that we need to do a whole heck of a lot more to go back and Not express the requirements Via the solutions that we've had in place for the last ten or twenty years But go back and revisit those requirements and look at the new architecture because most of the solutions are based on those old Architectures and so now we have these new surface areas. How do you inject? Security into a convergent system. How do you make security something that's convergent? How do you audit when things are constantly changing? Security used to have this notion of well We're going to get everything super stable and then we're not going to change it And that's how we're going to ensure security, but now what does security mean in a constantly changing world? And so I think I think that's one area where we can certainly do an awful lot I had posed the question this morning of Kubernetes be and again convergence is one of my favorite words in cloud native because in distributed systems That is the pattern that works and that's why Kubernetes one of the reasons why Kubernetes got so Ubiquitous is because it changed the fundamental model to this model of convergence And it has a language for the decline declared the desired state What is the language for various elements of security and what are those? convergence mechanisms and not all of those convergence mechanisms are going to be in a platform like Kubernetes What happens when you start doing security as a part of your build pipeline? How do you do that from a convergence? Perspective so I think there's an awful lot that we need to do in the security space that is a good call out So, you know, I'm happy now and I think to kind of turn over maybe the audience for some questions There's basically a few kind of wrap-up things in terms of you know I just want to make sure people aware of the TOC generally is very open for people coming in I know sometimes people new to the community get a little bit You know, they get a little bit worried sometimes. Oh, I don't know if I can approach him I guarantee you if you kind of reach out the folks everyone is very well They'd be maybe a little bit busy But overall everyone's kind of open and you know willing to kind of help out as as time a lots One important thing to note is I do want to kind of encourage folks that we do have elections basically Coming up in 2022 that should say 2022 instead of 2020 on but you know, we're going through this whole process where you know We're looking for people that are more senior engineers. You only have some cloud native experience Could work in end user communities, you know, it doesn't have to work for any user But just generally has some experience and we just we want to encourage more folks to run from all different backgrounds different Representations because I think one of the the best things that we've done with the TOC over time is we've expanded it to include more in user Representation more people from different backgrounds. I think that's just very healthy, you know to have so With that said, you know our love love to take any questions from the audience If I could before we take the question I just want to add a little something to the that you said there I'm gonna make it very personal So I I also joined the TOC earlier this year And I wanted to share with you a little bit about how that process went for me Because I think it might just help encourage some of you to step forward So Liz Rice our our chair TOC chair pinged me one day and said hey Have you ever thought about running for the TOC and I said oh I totally want to run for the TOC someday when I'm ready And she said You're the CTO of Weaverx you wrote a book on cloud native patterns You're ready, and I was like really and she said yeah You're ready, and that's how I came to do it So for all of you who are thinking I would love to do that someday. I'm not ready there's a really good chance that you are ready and Step forward or work with somebody to step forward, and if it doesn't work the first time that's okay, too But I just really want to encourage all of you because most of you probably think that you're not ready, but you are That's a fantastic story. Liz are fearless We miss her she so wants to be here So any questions in the audience before we kind of wrap things so we got two hands at least I've got questions from online first. So we'll answer those and then we'll go to in person So first we've got what quite criteria I used by the technical oversight committee to select the tag chairs Good question. I can certainly answer that so the TOC itself does not choose the tag chairs We approve them and I Can't think of a single instance where we haven't it's the tag chairs are nominated and and selected by the tags themselves and In virtually every case it's they make the decision be based on somebody who's been already Contributing to the tag and has been involved in the tag And it shows the passion for the charter that the tag has and they bring them forward and just as a point of Governance in case there is some kind of conflict That's the really the role that the TOC would play but as Chris said Even when it comes to governance that whole process that by design there's it's a whole bunch of autonomy is built into those So we are the TOC that approve things, but yeah things work pretty well Just like our projects are self-governing the tags are essentially self-governing and kind of go through things and you know There's pros and cons of that approach or some days I regret it But I do think it makes us a little bit stronger and resilient as an organization for that particular flexibility Cool. What about being on the on the TOC has surprised you has most surprised you Do you have a favorite part of your job on the TOC? And by the way, the previous question was from Kathy and This question is from Amy. Amy Amy from Amy Oh our Amy yeah, oh is also by the way Insanely fabulous. We could not do any of what we do without Amy. So Yeah, well, I I can try it. Yeah. Yeah, so I think what surprised me the most is How open it is actually like even even the meetings we have between us Everyone comes from like very different backgrounds and companies and everything but like when we need in the meetings The you don't see it. It's it's really a nice team of people with very different backgrounds and the my favorite thing is really how much I learn because We we cover issues that touch areas that I don't deal with daily or even yearly And I learn a lot and I try to bring this back also to to my colleagues and try to I don't know expand a Bit the knowledge and the usage within Community as well. I bring it back to the end users as well so I think really the The fact that like we have all these tags and we try to cover so many different areas It's it's really a good opportunity like anyone joining the TOC this will definitely be a big plus Yeah, the thing that I'll say is that I think I was quite surprised that every single TOC member is human I had this like perception that like everybody on the TOC was just this like wizard that knew every element of everything there was across the entire cloud native landscape that we showed and no collectively we have pretty good coverage of it, but Not a single individual Understands all of that and so that that I think was a little surprising to me and delightfully surprising Cool, we can now open it up to the floor for a question from the audience So, oh, that's a that's quite a lot of hands, so I'll just I'll pass it over to you first Hi, thank you When I joined the mailing news I was kind of beginning overwhelmed by all the voting and and bees and bees like how do you keep track of those? I mean, I had to look up what they mean that because I was a plus one be plus one and be there you can Yeah, culturally we so that the answer is Amy, but we have staff that you know Essentially facilitates all kind of the process stuff We're all about, you know public voting and public responses You know, there's been times where I would say by the time something gets to a vote There's a lot of consensus built, but we do allow community members to essentially also vote But to see members or the ones that have binding You know votes at the end they now that I think about it is from an external perspective If you just join that list and you're seeing like plus one and bees fly by or you know Like maybe we need to kind of document that and make that a little bit more Transparent of what these things mean because that's kind of this this language that we've kind of codified You know on our own obviously inspired from the Apache Foundation and so on You know how they vote and I would encourage everybody to if you're interested in a topic and you want to cast a vote Please do Because we as that's something that we actually depend on as a technical oversight committee Is that is one of the ways that we get the pulse of what you all what the community as a whole because By the time it goes to vote we've we've had we we've had discussion internally within the TOC publicly We the the tags have done some due diligence the projects have done some due diligence There has been a an open call for comments on the incubation proposal for example So that's one ability one way for the the broader community to have input But then when it comes to that final vote We all I'm sure you do as well. We that's that's definitely a bit of a pulse Yeah, not only like even the number of votes you see there it kind of shows momentum Next question. Well, there's lots of I'll go to here So The landscape of course gets a lot of jokes and laughs, but I actually like it a lot and thank you. Yeah But when I look at it though, it's it's really just trying to define the projects around the operating system if you may right so sort of centralized So my question to you is have you ever looked at in the on the outside of this? So for instance one obvious one would be the verticals So different verticals like banking retail You know energy that about right. They're all using this thing So essentially trying to invite Projects from those verticals and then the other part which would be closer to I'm sure what you're doing and what I did in the past More like researchy stuff So that would get into your security, but specifically for instance crypto, right? Defining a cube coin or some kind of a crypto A project that people inside the landscape in the middle could start experimenting with and that could help with the future stuff The the way the kind of Linux foundation works is generally it is a foundation of foundations, right? So CNCF is one we have our own like little landscape, you know I don't know if many people know about this, but there's a website called Landscapes.dev right if you go there we actually have a lot of different other landscapes for different organizations So like the graph QL foundation has a landscape hyper ledger has a landscape finos Which is the fintech open source foundation of Lindsay has a landscape LFA I foundation has a lot of different landscapes There's actually ones that have been built by External folks that want to do this So if there was another community out there that wanted to go take advantage of the technology and so on that we built They could go build their their own landscape. I mean that whole project really came Out of you know the late day and con and I just tracking all this crap and spreadsheets and kind of got sick of it Making a joke one day like what happens if we open source doesn't make the community do it for us And it kind of worked out at the end of the at the end of the day But the code is all open source and available for anyone to take and take and play with A few more minutes Maybe also for the navigation of the landscape There are some efforts to try to guide and users through it this cartographer's Working group and this is some this there are efforts to try to help out Navigating Question We're actually we're actually a time right now. Okay. Can we take Executive decision we're gonna make time Okay, thank you for taking my question and We can still make the event. So I'm you and yeah from Apple. So my question was yeah I am a Kubernetes contributor and the mainly in the six scheduling six Scatability as we are now developing more advanced features It often require and collaboration coordination across the sea or different working groups Even sometimes like we all have some batch support for example sparking Kubernetes did talk to the spark community So I just wondering how do the seek the TLC and the working with the C group or working group Even cross the community can really coordinate and help the collaboration and across the different and yeah Interest group or group community collaboration because I think that's probably is very important I think it's it's like I think the the TLC going from like let's call it like a top-down perspective We're trying to force that time to force that collaboration It's hard generally it germinates from like a bottoms-up thing and like a concrete example I could give you is you know We have a project now called open telemetry right and in early days there was before the open telemetry days There was open census there is open tracing which person is there and there was just an incredible amount of like confusion and conflict And I think one day Brian Cantrell who is a you know older to a C member just got you know like live it and you know pissed about this thing And people were approaching us. Can you help us? Can you help bridge these two communities together? We held meetings with to see members kind of bridging and kind of help collaboration and open telemetry was born I think the world is is better for but generally these things kind of happen from enough people showing up and Making your quest of the TOC and they'll kind of got a guide and you know deal with that But it has to come from you know the communities You know themselves will bring people together and do our best to To resolve things, but yeah case by case basis is the best I couldn't So for you, I don't know if anyone else has any comments on Otherwise you want to enforce you and be the time I Just realized we don't have anything next time Okay, well, thank you everyone for coming today and can I get a big round of applause here