The next item of business is a statement by Shona Robison on transvaginal mesh implants. The cabinet secretary will take questions at the end of her statement and so there should be no interventions or interruptions. I call on Shona Robison up to 10 minutes, please, cabinet secretary. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am grateful for the opportunity today to make a statement about the independent review of transvaginal mesh. I would like to begin by thanking all those who contributed to the review. I would particularly want to thank Elaine Holmes and Olive McElroy, whose efforts, along with other members of the Scottish Mesh Survivors, helped to bring about the review. Indeed, the review was established partly as a result of a petition lodged by the Scottish Mesh Survivors with the Public Petitions Committee back in April 2014. That petition asked for several things, including the suspension of mesh procedures, the establishment of an independent review, the mandatory reporting of adverse events and the introduction of fully informed consent. Much of that has been or will be achieved as a result of that original petition, and I will go into more detail shortly. What cannot be denied, however, is that this independent review has been a very difficult and challenging process. Indeed, in addition to the resignation of Elaine Holmes and Olive McElroy, we saw the resignation of a clinician member due to a disagreement with other clinicians about the clinical evidence. In any review or inquiry of this nature, there will always be a wide range of views and experiences and a myriad of evidence and other material to consider. The review's terms of reference specified that it would determine the safety of vaginal mesh implants for both stress urinary incontinence and pelvic organ prolapse and determine the relative efficacy of surgery for those conditions. In doing so, it was expected to consider a wide range of material, from patient experiences to scientific and statistical information, whilst always bearing in mind that the patient should be put first. However, the difficulties and challenges in bringing this independent review is something that we do need to reflect further upon as a Government, including formally examining how future reviews are undertaken and concluded, and I will keep Parliament informed of the detail of this as it is taken forward. The seriousness that this Government attaches to this issue is reflected in the fact that back in 2014, my predecessor, Alex Neil, as Cabinet Secretary, established the independent review of transvaginal mesh. Further, the then Cabinet Secretary asked that health boards consider suspending the use of mesh until such times as the independent review reported. That request for suspension is something that I have given my continued support to, though it must be noted that if women were experiencing very distressing symptoms and wanted to proceed, then in those difficult circumstances, procedures did go ahead provided the women concerned were fully informed of the risks. Importantly, it must be remembered that only the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, the UK regulatory body, has the power to ban the use of mesh and it has not done so. What both my predecessor and I were very mindful of was that this should be an independent review and, to that end, all ministers and Government officials have taken great care to allow the review to develop a fully independent comprehensive view on the matter without interference from Government. As we all know and as I alluded to a moment ago, the review has been challenged in recent weeks with the resignation of three valuable members amid concerns that evidence had been ignored, hidden or deleted. Those were very serious concerns and I raised them directly with the chair. She has confirmed that all evidence that is considered by the review has been published either in the final report or on the review's website. In addition to that, I asked the chief medical officer to carefully review the evidence that is contained within the report to ensure that she considered the evidence to be the best available. The chief medical officer has given me her assurances and professional judgment that the evidence in the report is the best available at this time. The chief medical officer also made herself available to MSPs this morning to answer any detailed clinical questions about the report. On hearing of the resignations that I arranged to meet with Elaine Holmes and Olive McElroy and took note of all their concerns, I met the chair, who discussed those concerns with me in-depth, and I have sent a very detailed response to Elaine Holmes and Olive McElroy based on those discussions. I am sure that many members here today will now have had a chance to read the review's final report and will have noted the conclusions outlined in it. What is clear from the report is that, in the past, there have been serious issues around mesh procedures, and members will note that it makes two very clear recommendations in relation to the circumstances that can be offered in the future. One is that, when women are treated for stress, urinary incontinence, all appropriate options, both mesh and non-mesh can be offered, and crucially, women must be given full information to make an informed choice. The second is that mesh procedures must not be offered routinely in the case of pelvic organ prolapse. Those recommendations are clear, unambiguous and incredibly important. We can also see that the final conclusion makes clear that the reporting of adverse events must be mandatory and be in line with the general medical council guidance. That again is a very important recommendation that will help to contribute to much-improved monitoring of mesh procedures in the future. Indeed, when I met with the chair, she explained that the word mandatory is used as a direct result of the request from Elaine Holmes and Olive McElroy. While it is deeply unfortunate that we got to the stage where those two very committed women felt they had no choice but to resign, we can nonetheless see that they have had a direct impact upon the report. Indeed, their efforts, along with those of many women affected, have led to other key achievements outside of the independent review. A helpline has been established, where any women who are affected by the issue can seek expert advice. A patient information and consent leaflet has been developed that is designed to help those who are suffering from stress, urinary incontinence to make a careful, properly informed decision about their treatment. Of course, it was through their campaign that the Scottish Government initially requested that those procedures be suspended. Looking to the future, I can confirm today that the chief medical officer has written to health boards drawing their attention to the review's report. Health boards will be fully expected to implement the conclusions set out by the review, and the chief medical officer has in particular highlighted the conclusions around the circumstances in which mesh procedures can and cannot be offered, which I mentioned a few moments ago. It is vitally important that all health boards ensure that the most up-to-date, detailed yet patient-friendly information is available to all women. That information must be provided so that they can make careful, fully informed decisions on the best treatment in their case. The CMO will meet medical directors to ensure that further safeguards are in place prior to any procedures using mesh being reintroduced routinely in individual health boards. I can also say today that an oversight group will now be formed to work with health boards to ensure that the national aspects of the independent review's conclusions are taken forward. To that end, the Scottish Government is in discussion with Health Improvement Scotland with a view to their assuming responsibility for the oversight group. Health Improvement Scotland will and indeed will be well placed to develop and oversee the implementation of measures in close partnership with health boards to ensure that the independent review's conclusions are implemented. I am keen to ensure, and indeed to continue to stress, that the patient must at all times be central to the oversight group's work. I have asked that Healthcare Improvement Scotland build upon its existing processes that would allow that in a meaningful and purposeful way. Finally, in addition to the work that the oversight group will be expected to carry out, I can also confirm that the Scottish Government officials are exploring a pilot of a specific mesh registry in collaboration with colleagues elsewhere in the UK. Again, that is something that is requested by women and affected by mesh. Presiding Officer, I hope that what I have said today helps to set out my position on the independent review of transvaginal mesh. The independent review's report has an important role in shaping the future approach that health boards will be expected to take. The action that will be taken by the Scottish Government in response to the report's publication gives a very clear message that all women must be offered high-quality options, information and support that will allow them to make an informed decision about the best possible treatment in their case. The safeguards put in place will ensure that procedures undertaken by clinicians in Scotland are monitored with transparency, so that assuring quality and safety. Let me end by once again thanking all involved in the process for their efforts, particularly the women who are affected by mesh, who have worked incredibly hard in difficult circumstances to raise awareness of the issue and to bring about meaningful change. I am happy to answer any questions on my statement. The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues that are raised in her statements, for which I intend to allow around 20 minutes. It would be helpful if members would press their buttons if they wished to ask questions, and I call on Jackson Carlaw. It was my privilege to sit in this Parliament's Public Petitions Committee when Elaine Holmes and Olive McElroy first presented their shocking, damming and harrowing evidence and testimony. On behalf of dozens of women and, since then, hundreds, indeed thousands across the world regarding what so many now openly regard as one of the great health scandals transvaginal mesh, I recall these women first being dismissed as delusional of making connections and assertions that were not true. I recall the incredulity, tears and fury of women as the MHRA sat in front of over 100 Scottish survivors while claiming that there were barely a handful affected across the whole of the UK. It is important to remember and understand how heroic these women have been. They have had to stand, sit and discuss the most intimate and personal details relating to their personal anatomy, with men with whom I imagine they never anticipated or expected they would have to have such conversations. That must have been traumatic for them. I can remember the small measure of pride that I felt when this Scottish Parliament and, heroically, the then health secretary, Alex Neil, announced a temporary ban and the review and the conclusions of which we are discussing today. Not only was this a response to the women concerned here in Scotland, it drew the eyes of the world to the lead Scotland had taken. I do not want to dismiss the review out of hand and I won't, but, Presiding Officer, this is a final publication that bears little of any resemblance to the interim review that was published last year. It is not just an evolution but an alleged miracle based on new evidence that suddenly recasts mesh as an appropriate procedure for women. I am sorry to say this and I do so reluctantly. A whitewash of damning evidence now reduced and downgraded an international reclassification of mesh as a high-risk procedure, not least by the European Union. It is not the basis for the lifting of the suspension. I am asking the cabinet secretary today will she respond positively now to my considered request that there will be no lifting of the suspension on mesh procedures until either or both the Public Petitions Committee or Health Committee of this Parliament have been able to consider the review and take further evidence from the most important with people of all the women affected together with the expert clinician who together with them felt they had no option but to resign from the review itself. A whitewash, yes, but will the cabinet secretary confirm that a whitewash will not be followed by a betrayal? Shona Robison Can I first of all recognise Jackson Carlaw's tenacity on this issue? He has for a long time pursued this issue with me and others. I think that no small part is why we are have got the review and the suspension that was put in place is down to Jackson Carlaw and others. Let me respond to some of the questions that Jackson Carlaw asked. Also, I should say, recognise very much his description of the physical challenges involved with the women going about an enormous campaign and piece of work. I hope that in my statement I was able to outline some of the achievements that they have gathered and have made over that period. I am not going to stand here and pretend that they are happy with the conclusions of this report, because I know that they are not. However, I hope that they will recognise them. What Jackson Carlaw will recognise is that the things that I outlined in terms of the recommendations of the conclusions and all of the other things, including the mandatory reporting, have been achieved by their campaign. Jackson Carlaw talked about the final publication and interim report. The final publication builds on the interim report, but incorporates much of the evidence that was since publicised between the interim report and the final report. The reason there was such a gap in time was because of the awaiting of much of those reports, such as the Cochran reports. That was built in to the final report recommendations. In terms of the lifting of the suspension, I have outlined in my statement that the chief medical officer will have to be satisfied that all of the safeguards that are laid out in the report and, indeed, in the CMO's letter to boards, which go beyond the report, will have to be in place before any board starts to routinely offer those procedures. It can only be done with fully informed consent from those women. I hope that, in some way, we will reassure Jackson Carlaw. The Scottish Messe survivors and their families are furious at the report, and it is a scandal that we only have a few minutes to discuss it as a statement at the end of the parliamentary term. Will the Government bring forward a debate on that in Government time when Parliament returns? Why, despite assurances from the chair that their submission would be withdrawn because of a complete lack of confidence in the final report, have Elaine Holmes and Oliver McElroy being betrayed and their evidence included in the final report? Why was the draft report agreed by all members of the review group in 2015 and then changed beyond all recognition by the time of publication? Why was research published in the medical journal Nature that suggested that one in seven women will suffer serious mess risks in their lifetime, omitted from the final report? Why are unavoidable and unnecessary procedures that too often cause irreversible problems being continued when there are safer alternatives? I have many, many, many other questions on this report, but a lack of time will not allow me to ask them now, but they will be asked. The world has been watching Scotland on mesh. What they will see is a cover-up, a mission and a medical establishment stitch-up, and that is both a tragedy and a disgrace. Scottish mesh survivors have been betrayed and misled, but let me say this. The cabinet secretary knows these women. They will not lie down and they will most certainly not accept this whitewash. Shona Robison Can I also begin by paying tribute to Neil Findlay and the work that he has done in pursuing this issue and indeed supporting the women in doing so? He talked about other parliamentary opportunities to discuss this in more detail, and I am sure that there will be more parliamentary opportunities to do that. He compared, as Jackson Carlaw did, the interim report and the final report. As I said to Jackson Carlaw, the reason that there was such a time gap between the interim and the final report is that Neil Findlay will be aware that there were studies that were being published in-between those reports that were then considered and incorporated into the final report. Neil Findlay outlines a number of specific questions, many of which are in the response that I sent to Elaine Holmes and Olive McElroy in terms of the detail of the changes to the chapters that I raised with the chair and have detailed in my response to them. On the expectation that many women who have written to me over the past few months had, they would have been understandably disappointed with anything short of a complete ban on mesh from the report. However, I have to say that the Scottish Government and the independent review never had the power to introduce a ban on mesh. As I have said in my statement, that power only lies with the MHRA, which is the UK regulatory body, and they have chosen and decided not to do so. We have to be guided by that. If that changes, then clearly that is a different matter, but it has not changed. That is their position. The independent review was looking at, and what circumstances did the clinical evidence say that those procedures should or should not go ahead? The evidence that has been brought forward and the chief medical officer has said that it is the best available evidence at this current time. However, I am happy if Neil Findlay wants me to send him a copy of the letter that I sent to the women outlining in great detail some of the chapter changes that he referred to. That was a long question and answers for the openers for very important information from everyone. I would ask everybody else to recognise that, so short questions and answers please to get through everyone. Rona Mackay to be followed by Alison Harris. The report says that, in the case of pelvic organ prolapse, mesh must not be used. Does the Scottish Government support that recommendation? Is it your expectation that it should be followed by all boards? Shona Robison. Yes, it is absolutely the case that the report is very clear that pelvic organ prolapse mesh must not be used. It goes into some detail around why it has come to that conclusion. As I said in my statement, what is really important is that not just that conclusion, but all the other conclusions are now implemented by health boards, including the additional safeguards, the reporting and making sure that all of those are in place before boards routinely reintroduce procedures on mesh. I am very clear and the chief medical officer is very clear that that has to be the case and she will be keeping me very closely informed as we take that forward. Alison Harris, followed by Sandra White. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The eyes of women from across the world are on Scotland. Mesh injured women, not just in Scotland, not just in the rest of the United Kingdom, but across the western world had been eagerly awaiting the independence review report and will be rightly disappointed with its contents. I would ask the cabinet secretary if she shares my disappointment with the removal of an entire chapter and its accompanying evidence highlighting the dangers of transvaginal mesh surgery from the final report. If she can explain why it is not recommended for transvaginal mesh procedures to be reclassified to the highest possible risk category, as has happened in the United States and in accordance with the recently issued European Union guidelines. Shona Robison Can I thank Alison Harris for her questions? The chair has assured me that all the evidence is either in the final report or is on the website. All the evidence that was received and indeed the clinician who resigned from the group provided an alternative commentary and chapter based on his clinical view that has also been provided on the website for everyone to be able to see. The member talks about reclassification. The MHRA is the body that would reclassify mesh and we would await any reclassification from MHRA, but it is its responsibility to determine the classification of mesh, not the Scottish Government's responsibility. Our responsibility is to give clear guidance to clinicians around what circumstances they should or should not be undertaking the procedures. That is what the independent review was set out to do. Those are the recommendations that it has made. I understand that, for many women, they wanted the review to ban mesh. I hope that I have explained that it was not within the gift of either the independent review or the Scottish Government. Only the MHRA could do that, and it has not done so, but I am happy if the member wants to write to her in more detail. Can I also thank the chief medical officer for the very important meeting today? Myself and others have been contacted by many women who underwent this procedure and are still suffering greatly the consequences of it. Can the cabinet secretary explain why, when there are women who have been left in such pain, are mesh implant procedures resuming? Surely, women should have the choice. Sandra White's last point about the choice is critical here. What the report clearly says is that there should be a fully informed choice. For many women, 43 per cent of women at some point in their lives will suffer urinary incontinence problems. For some, those are very devastating symptoms. It is very important that women have the full choice and that the clinical expertise and guidance are as good as they can be. That is why the independent review's recommendations are so important, because it lays out very clearly in what circumstances procedures should or should not be used. For stress, urinary incontinence both mesh and non mesh procedures should be fully explained, and the benefits and disbenefits and the risks should be fully explained so that women can make a fully informed decision. The report's recommendations will strengthen that, and we will make sure that the guidance, particularly the guidance and the patient information, is as good as it can be so that women can make that informed choice. Anna Sarwar, to be followed by Alison Johnstone. Deputy Presiding Officer, the most important individuals in this entire situation are the survivors of the mesh scandal. It is a fact to say that they feel angry, let down and betrayed. Individuals who served on that review group have asked for their submissions to be withdrawn, and they asked why those submissions weren't withdrawn. The First Minister at First Minister's question is right. Can we have a question, please? I'm coming to the question. Rightly, I apologise for the consequences of that treatment. Will the health secretary now take this opportunity to apologise for this botched process that has let down so many individuals? I say to Anna Sarwar that right at the beginning of the process when myself and the chief medical officer were in front of the committee. I apologise to women for the hurt that they had undertaken, the damage and the injury that they had suffered and undertook to make sure that, going forward, there would be clear clinical guidance that procedures would have to have fully informed consent and that the suspension that I, like Neil, put in place would continue until all that work had been done. Anna Sarwar referred to information that the women themselves had asked to be removed. When I met the women, they asked me that the minority report that they had written should be removed. I passed that information on to the chair. The chair of the independent review group agreed to do that. They then subsequently asked for further information to be removed. That again was passed on to the chair, but at that point the report had already been published. It included a request to remove information from the interim report, which was published 18 months ago. That information is there, but I don't think that anybody is under any illusion of what their women's views are of the report, and I understand that. As I have said to other members here, I think that one of the issues here was that the expectation of what the independent review group could achieve in terms of the expectation of many women, as they have written to me that it should be nothing less than a ban on mesh procedures, was not something that the independent review could have delivered or that the Scottish Government could deliver. That responsibility and power lies only with the MHRA, and they have chosen not to do so in the light of the evidence that they have seen. That is the fact. 98 per cent of the women in the report said that their consent to mesh surgery was not informed, and 70 per cent said that their surgeon was not open to the idea that mesh was the cause of their symptoms. Those symptoms have resulted in active women losing their livelihoods, their incomes, and it has impacted on their relationships. They have experienced— Do you come to a question, please, Ms Johnston? Yes, I would like to understand that women are unable to lift up their own children. I would like to understand what ongoing support the Government is giving to the survivors, their partners and their families. Alison Johnston makes a really important point here, and that is about fully informed consent. Many of women who have horrendous stress urinary incontinence symptoms, if they come forward for treatment, is important that the clinician fully informs them of all the risks of any procedure, and that this report recommendation is very clear that women should be taken through all the options, including non-mesh and mesh options, and all the risks associated with all of that are explained fully to them. Plus, patient information leaflets have to ensure that that is clearly set out for those women, so a fully informed decision can be made. In terms of on-going support, we would expect our services—whether that is a health service or other services—to support women who need that support. If Alison Johnston wants more detail of that, I would be happy to write to her with that. Mike Rumbles, Alex Neil. I would like to thank the minister for advance sight of his statement. My question focuses on the precautionary principle. How many health boards ignored both the previous health secretary, Alex Neil and the current secretary's request for a suspension of the procedure until this independent review reported? Does the minister know how many of those procedures have taken place across the country since the health secretary's request was first made and ignored? Let me say to Mike Rumbles first that, as I have said a number of times and Alex Neil previously said, because this was not a banned procedure, if a woman agreed in the light of all the risks being explained to her that she wanted to go ahead with the procedure, there was nothing that would stop that if it was fully informed consent. Moving on to the specific question about how many mesh procedures have been carried out, I can tell the member that between June 2014 and September 2016, there were 148 transobjutorator tape procedures carried out, 38 transvaginal mesh procedures for pelvic organ prolapse and 327 transabdominal procedures also for pelvic organ prolapse. What I can say is that those procedures, trans-operator tape procedures, the report now recommends retro pubic tape, not trans-operator tape procedures. As I have said in answer to a number of questions, in terms of the pelvic organ prolapse, the report is very clear and recommends that that must not be routinely offered. Those numbers of procedures, the 38 transvaginal and the 327 transabdominal procedures, we would not expect health boards to now routinely offer those in the light of clinical guidance. The chief medical officer will take forward the detail with every health board and we would expect them to implement that before the suspension is lifted. We have already used up the time allocated for questions on that, but I am willing to have a few more minutes to allow more questions. Alex Neil will be followed by Donald Cameron. As the cabinet secretary who set up the inquiry, I am disturbed and disappointed that we have ended up where we have ended up. We cannot just leave things as they are. Therefore, I welcome that part of her statement where she said that she is minded to carry out a formal review of the process. How we got from a unanimous decision of the review group on the interim report to where we got to with the final report and all the unanswered questions from the women, the allegations from the consultant to also believe that this was a betrayal, I do not think that we can leave it there for the credibility of the report, its recommendations and indeed for the implications for future reviews of this kind. If we do not carry the confidence and trust of our patients, then those reports will not be worth the paper that I have written up. Let me start by saying that I absolutely recognise Alex Neil's role when he was previously Cabinet Secretary for Health and Establishing much of the work around this issue. As I said in my statement, I think that there is an issue about the process here of the independent review that we need to learn lessons from. However, I need to be absolutely clear what this is not about is opening up and reviewing the clinical evidence or the conclusions and recommendations of the report. What we will do is to look at the lessons learned about the process. It is important that, when patients are involved, particularly in independent reviews, there cannot often be a power imbalance in terms of the dynamics of reviews. It is really important that we learn lessons from this and that recommendations are brought to ministers and that that can then inform the guidance to not just the chairs of future independent reviews but also the members and the terms of reference that those independent reviews have. I am very happy to keep Parliament informed of the detail. I would expect someone independent to take that forward. I am very happy to keep Alex Neil informed. The cabinet secretary will be aware that the report discusses the use of a standalone database system. However, given that the current BSUG database can only be used by a relatively small proportion of surgeons and not general practice, as the report notes, will the cabinet secretary consider using a comprehensive and independent database so that a much wider range of medical professionals can use it to report adverse incidents and concerns, as well as track patient progress? As I said in my statement, the monitoring of adverse incidents and the data gathering is really important and a key part of the recommendation. The oversight group that is being established will be taking forward much of the detail of the report. I am very clear that we need to make sure that there is transparency to all of the data that is coming forward so that people can see for themselves the information and data that is coming forward. I am very happy to keep Donald Cameron involved in the detail of that as we take it forward. That ends the question session on the statement on transvaginal mesh and plants. We will move on to the next item of business.


In the same vein, Muslims in the southern part of the country have clamored for peace and unity as the Mark Edel-Fittir, the report. Muslim faithfuls in Bayelsa state celebrate the day, recalling the incidents that led to the death of some peasants in the state on Wednesday. The Quran was revealed in this month to mankind, so that is why Allah has directed us to observe 30 days or 29 days of Ramadan fast, so we just ended the DSTD, so today is the celebration. The thing is compulsory to all Muslims, like from God, and after we finish the first thing, we have to give sacrifice, we have to give zakat, to feed it, to come by rice, corn, and cheer to the people that are not effort to get what they will cook after Salana. If you do the right thing as Muslims here in Bayelsa state, we are not supposed to put ourselves, our hands in wrong things, we are supposed to focus the ways of Allah. The ways of Allah is to live in harmony, to do things rightfully, not to indulge yourself in any form of activities that will bring disunity.  Iniquity, also in the southern part of the country, Muslim faithfuls converge at the central praying ground in the capital. Speaking on behalf of the state government, the secretary to the state government, Dr Habibat Adubiaru, called for a sustainance of partnership to retain the peace in the states. We should continue praying for the successful, the changing government coming on May 29th, so we should not allow people to be used as hooligans or as thugs. So we should embrace peace, we should make ourselves one for this country so that the Nigeria will continue to go in higher and higher. Some worshipers at the praying ground express joy and hope for a better Nigeria, but not without a call to the newly elected political office holders. Dear ones, I've suffered a lot. I'm hopeful that this coming administration will hear the ones of the past and it will be better for us, insha'Allah. I'm moving towards another government, so we need to at least to advocate peace and harmony in Nigeria, so that we live in peace. We are all one in Nigeria. A neighbour in Ugo state, the government arch Muslim faithfuls to continue to imbibe the values and teachings learned during the month of Ramadan. I also enjoy me to tell our brothers and sisters in Islam that yes, we agree Ramadan has finished. We must continue to follow the ethics, the values that Ramadan taught us even after the end of Ramadan. He has also sent me to tell our spiritual fathers that he thanks them very much because without their prayer, we have not been able to achieve all that we have achieved within the last four years. Addressing faithfuls, the grand imam of Ushun state, Musa and Imashaw, implored them to ponder on the gains of Ramadan. He spoke alongside the governor, Ade Mola Adeleke, who is observing his first aid in office. After this Ramadan, they should know because we are all human beings, you know, it's only God that is 100%. We are not 100%, but they should try and abide from the fasting of that 30 days. You know, a lot of people stay away from a lot of things. They should try to abide, you know, by it. It's not going to be easy, but they should just try and they should be more prayerful all the time. Because I know during the fasting, there's prayer every time. They should continue that prayer so as you can move forward, so as you can get to the promised line. The blessing of Ramadan is one for Bialas and of course devotion to Almighty God, and of course sense of sacrifice, and of course commitment to spiritual development. So we pray that God will give us the way we tell, to continue with that Amin spirit and to continue to work in the path of Almighty God.


Hey birdwatchers, I'm about to break camp and go do something that I've been looking forward to for about a year I'm going to go on an adventure deep in the Rocky Mountains with my friend Paul and I Finally get to leave this freaking RV park now you guys know that I am almost always a boondocker So to be stuck in one spot has been tough for me But while I was there, I had a new power system installed Using battle-born and dragonfly energy and so today's going to be the first day that I really get to get out and test that So I'm going to go on this adventure for the day and then come back and see how the system held up So I'm going on a Jeep tour. It's all day it runs about six hours and it goes through the gold belt in Colorado and Listen, I'm a little bit of a weenie if you've been following my channel for a few years you know that I don't like to go over the mountain passes and One time Paul took me out in a four by four at night and I was kind of a weenie on that too So he's brave to go with me on this one But what happens on the Jeep tour is they put you in one of their own vehicles and they drive you for the day We stop for lunch in the middle and luckily this Jeep tour is a harvest host So I get to go and park there and then when I'm done at the end of the day I don't have to find my way back to an RV park or find my way back to a hotel I can just go right into my own rig and relax our six and a half hour Jeep tour takes us from the town of Canyon City Up through windy phantom Canyon to the gold mining towns of Victor and Cripple Creek and then back down another Beautiful mountain road to Canyon City We get to see all of the beautiful scenery along the way and then I get to go back to my rig Which is parked at this choice spot with harvest house. I'm here with well He's the owner of Colorado Jeep tours and he's going to tell us all about everything that they do here Well, thank you Robin. Yes, this is our gift shop here card of Jeep tours and we run Jeep tours out of here Along with a lot of other things. We do whitewater rafting. We do wine tasting ATV tours Horseback riding so even have a VRBO that's upstairs and of course harvest host Oh, wow a lot of harvest host folks. They come and stay here because our property is easy to find It's very very beautiful here and easy to access. Okay before I head out I'm gonna go ahead and check my power supply like I said I just had a new system put in with battle-born lithium batteries and some big drone components by dragonflight energy and These are the things that let me stay overnight at places like a harvest host without having to have a hookup So what I had installed was two lithium batteries a 2000 Watt inverter I have 400 watts of external solar panels, which I don't think I'm gonna have to get out today but I have 90 watts on the roof and Something called a DC to DC charger, which is just a game changer And that is going to charge my batteries while I'm driving and the 90 watt will charge it more While I'm out of my adventure, so I'll check back in again later and let you guys know how it held up Our driver Tom is right there. He's looking at us. I'm sure he's gonna be really gentle with me, right Tom Very gentle he says very gentle, but I'm very excited to to go deep into a Jeep tour In the Colorado mountains. I'll be talking about geology. We'll be talking about history I'm a huge huge history buff also be talking about Dinosaurs because obviously this is dinosaur country and toward the end of the tour when we come down off a shelf road We'll be getting into the mecca of dinosaur discovery I'm a little scared to go over this bridge. Oh, come on. I know I'm in good hands. All right. Tell her I loved her. Oh my god. Here she goes. She's gonna start screaming Well to think that this bridge used to carry thousands of tons of railroad Train and here we are a little tiny keep it weighs like maybe 3000 We made it That wasn't a bad bridge at all actually. I think they're saving the really scary part for the way down Back to town. Maybe Tom says all you have to do is just stay on the road. That's not that hard Obviously don't look very big like well, you know, we're gonna do a four-lane highway through here. No, this this was a train tunnel And it's still used today Fremont County came in here about two years ago and stabilized this simply by blowing concrete in here because there are rocks falling down What did you think in lunch, Paul? It was delicious It was delicious. I bought everything in that store getting up there. What do you think Paul? Is this where we start going down and it gets scary not yet not yet Not that it doesn't happen Robin. It's not yet Oh, yeah, what do you think it was amazing That was a good day. Yeah, that was a really good day outside in the Colorado mountains Yeah, and we learned so much about the local history. Yeah. What was your favorite part? I? think Just the views the view all along the route Yeah, amazing and our tour guide Tom was great. Yeah, and we learned all kinds of stuff About the history of Colorado. That was fun. I would do it again. Yeah, that was so fun I'm glad I did that Now we're done with the Jeep tour I didn't have to go back and try and find in our v park or find my way back to a hotel I came right up from the Jeep and got in my rig And now I'm going to grab a bottle of wine and Paul and I are gonna hang out down to this cute little seating area Here at Colorado Jeep tours And have a class and watch the Sun go down if you guys don't have a membership for harvest house already I have a link down below for 15% off I use it all the time. I absolutely love it. It makes my RV life so much better and thanks to battleborn I got back to my rig and my battery is totally full Because of the 90 watt panel on the roof and because I drove today for an hour and a half Thanks to the DC to DC charger. Okay you guys I'm gonna sign off for now I'll see you all next week with an all-new video until then Everybody have happy travels and be free


I'm Corbin. I'm Rick and you can follow. We don't want juicy content, baby! So, juice. And of course, it's on Patreon. Follow Fischer Twitter account, ring the bell to be part of the notification squad. Bye! Also, follow us on our personal YouTube channels. I have Leland and Rick, uh, whoa. Ha ha ha! Cooking as a vessel, so they could just see Leland. Is it basically what it is? It's true. The number of comments on those videos are, oh Leland, oh Leland, oh Leland. He is the most adorable baby ever, what? You should do a video where you cook Leland. He's my little ladoo. Yeah, put him in a pie. And so yeah, check those out. They're always in the link in the description below. Today, a new trailer dropped last night. I believe it was around four AMR time. We were wide asleep. That's what woke me up. But the new trailer for the, for the Amatak Bakchan and the Yushman Korana film dropped that strike device, shoot it, strata, how do you say his name? I can't, shoot it. Yeah, direct to Piku, which was one of my favorite Amatak Bakchan roles. So to have them back together and then with the Yushman Korana, I think this is gonna be an amazing film. And it's sadly, we won't be able to see it in theaters but we're getting it early and it's going straight to our televisions. So I'm pretty sure even before seeing the trailer, I'm pretty sure we're gonna be reviewing this almost immediately. So also June 12th is my brother's birthday. But this is called Guabo Sittabo. That's a fun name. Guabo Sittabo. Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like a guy you call up when you need to care, take care of business on somebody over there in the Bronx. So yeah, you know that guy hasn't paid his rent in about nine months. Yeah, you know who I'm gonna call up?  I'm gonna call up my buddy Guabo Sittabo. Who's gonna take care of that for you? That scene was worth it. All right, ready? Three, two, one. That was him. That's Big B. Yeah, looks great. Whoa, his voice is different. Whoa. Oh, wow. This is gonna be good. This is gonna be good.  I'm getting the same vibes of Piku in that, not obviously not that style, but in terms of his directing style, a lot of humor. It's not like three idiots comedy in terms of not saying that comedy is bad, in terms of you're gonna get that whoo at the end of the, to make you laugh. A lot of his humor, I feel like, is very dry and you have to, you have to listen to them to understand there's not gonna be like a punchline in the jokes. No, it's gonna be like old Christopher Columbus films, like the humor that was written in the jokes and like Breakfast Club or even like the comedy with Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan when Harry Met Sally, those kinds of, you're right, it's not the Keystone cops extreme. We don't have a problem with that. We love that. You definitely can see the style that is brought to the films. And I'm, I was thinking to myself, man, this is really the kind of, really looking forward to a nice, fun, laughing and I'm sure it's gonna have a slight touching. I love that it didn't get touching at the end right there. It looked like a moment it could be. I'm like, don't do it. Stay naughty. One, Big B looks fantastic. Like they've totally hit his face. It's hard to hide his voice, but they've totally hit his face. And also just a Euchman Karana's choice of films continues to impress me. And also his voice, like his voice changed, which made a slight alteration for this character's voice. Which we know we haven't seen enough of Euchman films, like most of his films. And from what we've seen so far, we've been very impressed, but we haven't seen him change his voice like that yet. So it was definitely a different for us. But the desopsis is I'm gonna talk about changing Euchman Karana to start together in a quirky family comedy. Great synopsis. Yeah, synopsis. That's exactly what it looks like though. Oh, Rick. Oh, we're gonna get trashed in the comments if he was in there. But Vijay Raza's in this.  If he was in the trailer, we're gonna get trashed. End the reaction. How many times has that happened? Well, he was in a film that we didn't even recognize him. He was in the, Oh my God. He was in, what was that film, Street. He was in Street and it was only for one scene, but we didn't recognize him, but we claimed to love this guy so much. Oh, what we're gonna do? You know what we're gonna do? We're just gonna mention him in every reaction from now on and every review. You know who I loved in this? Vijay Raza. Make sure we check out the pictures. Gotta cover our bases. What is that? I don't, well, first of all, I don't know if I need to watch a trailer again to see if he was in it, but he's playing, he's the third listed cast on the IMDb and he's playing the government officer. Sipically, like when we're watching, I'm trying to get my, there's a funny, I think the stupid family put the picture up on Instagram of us watching films and there's one eyeball on the subs and there's one eyeball on the actual visuals. I try so hard to read it as fast as I can and look up in the trailers because they go so fast to not miss anybody. Hey, Rick. Go to one minute, go to one minute, 33 seconds. I just randomly went to a point and it was him, a minute and 33 seconds. Going, oh. See, here's the thing. Okay, first of all, we love him and he's a phenomenal, phenomenal actor, but I was looking at Big B and a Yushman and I wasn't really looking at that guy because I was looking at those two and then I was looking at the subs. Yeah, I need Galabo Sotabo to come and off me. Gross.  We're very dumb. But if we didn't, if we needed any more incentives besides the director, Big B and a Yushman Karana, it has Vijay Raaz. I'm extremely excited for this film and you could be expecting a review right when it drops because we're gonna watch it.  That's pretty.


I will call the meeting to order at 10 minutes after four. Do we need to press anything here? Just goes on. OK. Thank you. And welcome, welcome, Budget Committee. Welcome, photographer. And do we have any amendments to the budget? I mean, the agenda? I guess it's under correspondence. But Paul emailed something today about uniforms and everything else like that. So it's in your packet. And I also have something for Bill's treasurer. OK, OK, OK. So let's go ahead with potential budget finalization. Increases for town employees, paying down debt, et cetera, action, likely. Derrinda has made a number of adjustments to the budget after my request to try and get it closer to 2%. And what I'd like to do is have her present those changes, and then we can have discussion. Well, the first thing I did was go back and put in the 3% increase, and then I adjusted the health insurance from a 2.6% increase to an 8% increase. I think it's more realistic than even though she is with 2.5%. The other thing that I did was I upped the discretionary fund by $5,000, but that's debatable after I tell you. The next thing I did was I found we do have a building fund for the town hall in place. Well, it's for all the town buildings, right? It isn't just for the town hall. Well, it just says building fund. So I'm assuming it can be used for any building, although the highway has their own one now for just the town garage. So I put $5,000 into that. You could make it $10,000 and then go back to the $5,000. How much is there? There's about $29,000. Before the $5,000. Before the $5,000 is $29,000 in it. So those were the biggest things. The other thing I did was just odds and ends that if I went through and looked like if we overspent an online item and we didn't put enough in it for this year, I kind of played with those numbers a little bit, but those were the right there accounted for the significant portion of it. Where is it on the budget? I can't find the building fund. I put it in under town hall. I can move that up to under general, which make it more generalized than the town hall. Okay. Because it didn't specify in the fund. So what does that bring the total budget to? The total didn't bring down. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking at my old... It's a 1.93 increase. That's with the $5,000. That's with all that and $5,000 more in the discretionary. And the reason I did that was because... Oh, and I know the other thing I increased was the computer expense. Because, again, we're having a lot of issues with computers. We need to get some RAM for some of them. So I hope that a little bit as well. But certainly not for what we spent last year. So... Thank you. So... When you said a 3%, were you talking about wages? And from 2.6, did you say from 2.6 to 2.8% increase in less health insurance or to 8% increase? We upped it to an 8% over... Based on the rates. From 2.6 to 8%. Right. Our insurance increase this year was 2.5%. So I only put it at 2.6%. So you took it from 2.6 to 8. I took it to 8. And all indications are showing that they're... That was an anomaly. That 2.6, average health care inflation has been 6% or 7% every year right along. We got lucky for one year. Is this regarding the fire department? Is this consistent with their submittal view? That's exactly what they gave me for numbers. All the special like recreation, cemetery, highway, all the boards presented their budget and I put it in as is presented. So just targeting back to our discussion way back last year. This was a way to make our increases and expenditures relatively consistent. The other way to do that is... I mean basically as I see it, I have sort of three choices. One is we built up a couple of funds and put in some contingency money which has upped our budget to close to the 2%. The other way to deal with it which we discussed at our last meeting was to prepay some debt which would have the same effect. If we have extra money at the end of the year we can always prepay debt also. But I like the idea in light of our discussion, the idea of building up the building fund I think is a good idea. I think the health insurance is a good change because I think that's much more realistic. In terms of the select board contingency money that just gives us some money to do probably some building related thing. That's usually what that money gets end up spent on.  Something always seems to come along. Yeah, we've deliberately kept that low for years and years and years. It was $2,000. But $10,000 today is probably the same as $2,000 20 years ago. Anyway, comments, discussions, questions?  I think the highest one is 3.15% or something like that. So we have good interest rates as far as not having to pay down the debt. What's the discretionary fund, the building fund? What rate is that earning? That's just in our money market accounts at the bank, regular bank accounts. It's not earning. We don't do any investing. So we don't want to have that. Yeah, it's minimal. It's like 1%. It's like 2%. Yeah. Are CDs paying any better? No, not much out there. Well, and the other thing is we need to stay liquid just in case. Not that we couldn't borrow money against the CD if we had to, but there's not enough upside to really justify... Sure. Yeah, I can't get that back. Well, although, if I understood, we need to use some of the decent sizes. There's more than just what we're seeing here this year. I'm sorry. I understood that the building fund already had a balance. 29,000. Yeah, so we're not... So you've got that entire... This would be like over $30,000 in this money market. Well, it's our entire... It's all in our fund balance. It's not in a... It's all part of our financial reporting. So again, as we've discussed in the past, it's a balancing act between putting aside a little money to fund known future expenses versus just borrowing the money when we need it. My thing was, which I expounded on at the last meeting, was I hate to see us all of a sudden spend less money because we've had an exceptional year with a couple of things. And then next year, we have to have a 4% or 5% increase to catch us up to where we really were all along. Yeah, I understand. So that's the thinking behind this. Now, we don't have to do any of this. We can go out there with a negative increase if that's the sense of the Board and the Budget Committee. Now, this seems sound like a good way to proceed. The other thing the Board did this year was they used some of the fund balance to reduce the tax rate, too. So by building up this extra money that they can also, rather than pay down debt, they can reduce the tax effort. Correct. Yeah, this looks sound to me. And I think it's wise to put money in the building like I was saying before. If you don't do it now, you're going to pay later. For something. I just... Is $1,500 enough going to be enough for janitorial? I'm looking at bill d'oreal and dropping ice and water. No, don't pick on bill d'oreal. We just had it, please. This is because I was on East Hill Road. I know where we can take that 50 grand. So I'm wondering if we should up that to... Well, we've got plenty of money in the discretionary category to spend a little more on janitorial, right? If we consider increasing the amount to the building for five to 10... What would be the impact of another $5,000 on the budget? And leave the extra in the discretionary as well? No, just put another... In addition to five. Put five more in. Yeah. Because I've upped the discretionary, I doubled that as well. No, I'm talking strictly to the building funds. I think sooner than later we're going to have to deal with this bill. Should put $5,000? Should put five to go in this room, but... That's okay with that. I think it's on page two. It's about half a percent. We're bringing you up to a 2.36%. Yeah, right. It's about half a percent. It's about 10 grand for every percent. Roughly. Roughly. Yeah. Steve, would you refresh my memory on when the next truck replacement is going to be because we've reduced so much of that debt service for next year? It's a little ways, right? It's not even next year. Truck replacement is a way to wait. I think the next thing we're doing is a greater. It's greater. But you will incur debt service additional debt service next year for the trucks we just brought. That we've already bought. Okay, right. And so that will... Yeah. Because right now that the total amount of debt services over the last couple of years is quite a bit less. Right. So it's sort of an anomaly year in terms of... It must be. Well, it's how we're paying... Well, what we could have done is made a down payment on the truck. Right. But what we've... Our practice in recent times has been to use the low interest rates and defer the first payment for a year. Right. We're just going to have that next year. We're going to have the bigger chunk in there. I mean, this truly is a good year to build up some of the other things and knock away a little money in a few places where we can use it. Right. But... Because next year it may not be... Yeah, next year we might not be able to do it. Well, and the health insurance could be 15% next year. Okay. Yeah, I think that's good. Cool. So it's a 3% raise is what... Well, if you up the building onto 2.36, I think. 2.36 will be the... If you put the extra in... That's 10,000. 10,000. That would be a total of 10. I don't... So you're saying the employee raise would be... Three. Three. Three. Okay. I thought you were saying it would be less. Okay. No. How's everybody feel about that? Good. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that. I think it's good. Increasing that building fund is probably a wise move right now. Yeah. Especially since the heat went off in this building today. What's here? Well, that's it. That could be... I know we have problems with the elevator, but that's not building fund, but the amount of discretion, whatever. So there's a lot of things on the horizon. So is this our last review of the budget? Well... Would you like to make a motion to... I move that we accept the budget with the 3% wage increase for the town employees and all the other items that we discussed. I need to figure it out. Yeah, what are they? Oh, of... What's the number? The number is... 1 million... I've got to get my decimal. 1 million 182? 187. 187. 891. 187. Okay, 1 million 187. 891. Yeah. Okay, 3%. And it's a 2.36. 2.36. 2. 2.36. Do that again. 1 million... 1.87. 1.87. 1.89. I think is it all employees, Dorinda, or is it all full-time employees at 3%? Did that also go to select employees? Everybody got 3%. The only ones I did not change because we never seemed to have any activities. And so I just... The dog... I left them because they went up last year to the $20 set, the dog and the health officer. Okay. Because we never hit their numbers anyway, so I left that at the old rate. Okay, is there a second to the motion? Go ahead. Second. No, really. Any further discussion? All in favor of the motion, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? We have passed our budget. Good. Good work, John. And Dorinda, that's a 2.36 budget increase from last year. Yes. Okay, was that how your motion was? Yes. 2.36. Yeah, I just forget the last year. Well, then you guys can go be upstairs because they're not going to be here for half an hour. Oh, sure. Look at that. I've got the light and the heat on. Thank you. Great. Thank you, Budget Committee. Yeah, thank you. Good work. Good job. Good job. All right. Good job. Now we wait and see what happens with this. That's boring. Oh, that isn't... Well, our highway mileage for the first time has changed. They're assigning them. Oh, that's very exciting. Those roads... Went down? Right. Well, that's not good for the town, but it's not good for the town. I'll turn the mirrors. Okay. We're shipping somebody up there. Yeah. Yeah. So, I just want you to know the general store has sold. Oh, really? Again. For what? For cash. I don't know how much. For two coulis, farm stand. And I guess they're at East Calus. It's going to be... I don't know if it's going to be like a brag farm thing, but then also thinking of using renovating net puts of apartments in there. Good luck with that. So, it's going to be... Yeah, but that building is so... I know, but you know what it is? Maybe they'll cut it. A lot of work. That's good. I think. Yeah. But it's going to be open year round, or is it just going to be a farm stand in the summer and winter round? I think it's going to be open year round. I think it's a brag farm kind of thing, you know, maple syrup, you know, all that kind of cheese. Like right off the interstate buses will come? Or will they park? I don't know. All I know is that it's... One bus. Coulis, Coulis farm stand from East Calus. Okay. Nice. Well, we want some local business, don't we? Yes, we do. And I'm glad, very glad, that the event at Red Hen went off without a hitch. I would tell you, watching all those people staggering around there in the dark was enough to... I know. Blame me. I was... Steve saw me. I was freaking out. Listen, I think you're supposed to be firm as for this, if we did have it. Right. My five-year-old grandson pulled the pyro santa thing about 25 pounds. She was under the echo! That was the santa clock? Well, it was pyro santa who was... Oh, right, right, right, who was doing it. Okay. Anyway. Did he get it some more? What? Did he get it some more? We didn't stay for the s'mores. We'd been there a long time. Oh my God, there was a kid who had this giant trunk like this.  I'm like, yeah! All right, I think we're still on TV. Yes, we are. Okay. We just went to the s'mores thing. Exactly. That's the report. But anyway, it was pretty... a little scary, but pretty exciting to see the cars backed up from all the way this side of town. All the way. I passed the interstate and up under the bridge. But again, I think next year I would like to make sure all the ducks are in a row in terms of making... I mean, I don't know what the liquor license looks like in terms of... Are there numbers that they say on the liquor license that they're supposed to serve? Do you have... They have? Yeah. To talk about it later. I'm calling a success. I think it was great. Yes. Okay. All right. So, certificate of highway mileage. Yes, sir. For the first time, it's a different certificate of highway mileage because you guys just continued all those rows. So, we're going to need a motion. Do you guys want to review it? Oh. Yeah. I would like to review it. I just used the... I used the figures from the order. Right. And just took it off. You took it. Exactly right. Wow. So, that means we had less stage. I wish. I know because... Although, they were class... They were class... There were four. They were four so they don't get any... Right, right? No, no, no. They were class three. You took them down from class three to either class four or you just continued them. Oh, yes. That's right. Right, right, right, right. So, we will get marginally a little... It's such a small... I was thinking you were class four and you were right. Not even. As usual. 0.60. So, we have 15.92 class two, 32.10 class three, 16.941 of state highways and 9.278 of class four. What would a class one, one-lane road be? How could you even have a class one, one-lane road? Is that if it's a divided highway? Probably. Would that be route 12? No. No. No, no. Would that be... The autopilot. Interesting. Interesting. We know that. Maybe it's the... I just want to take a quick end with this before we... Maybe it's the on-ramp and off-ramp. No, because it's all federal. All right. This is state. It has to be a divided road. I don't know. Maybe it's the U-turn. How long is it? It isn't anything. We have zero. Oh, it's zero. I thought we had some added. No, no, no. It's a classification. I was trying to think. I think it's time. And the state added a little bit with that bridge work. 0.01. 0.01? God bless them. Just because they pushed it out a little bit. Yeah, exactly right. Well, Bill Reinecke has found a plow guy and a sander. Wonderful. And his road looks fabulous. In fact, I wondered if the town was still plowing it. It looked so good. Good. Does anybody want to make a motion? Yes. I would vote that we change that to those figures that you have here. Okay. Thank you. Bill, you second? Any further discussion? All in favor of the motion? Please say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? We have passed this. And I guess we all sign it, huh? You all sign it, then I've got to send in a bunch of stuff to the state. So do we have a draft select board report? Do we zip one out or where? I didn't get it done. It's just been too crazy. Okay. Sorry, I'll bring it next time. No, that's fine. And I have central money in it right after this meeting. I'll find out about finalizing that report. Great. Thank you. Okay, approving December 18th. Select board minutes. Do we have a motion? So moved. Second? Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Update. Ah, here's a good one. Updates on newly created education central unified school district. Ooh. Ah. Well, after spending three intense weeks on this with the superintendent, the superintendent met here. I think we haven't talked about that. The superintendent met here with all the town clerks. And we discussed, laid out this plan, which is that first of all, the Romney School District is dissolved. That's done. We needed to have a unified union school district special meeting. That was originally slated for January 9th. And then it was slated for January 14th because they didn't do the warning right. And now there has been a delay while the parties work out some logistics. So it looks like that meeting is going to be in February sometime, maybe February 15th. There's also going to be an articles of agreement special meeting. We don't know exactly how that, since the subcommittee has just been formed and with deficient Berlin member, Berlin did not send enough members, they're going to try to get together some articles of agreement that are different than the template. And then we'll have to have a special meeting about that with different ballots to further complicate things at town meeting. First of all, if we have that special articles of agreement meeting, we're going to have to have, there will be one part of the ballot will be central to all five towns, but then one part of the ballot will only be particular to middle sex. So it's kind of, we're going to need all hands on decks and counting, I don't know how that's all going to work. But for now, everything has just been kind of pushed aside. It's not a stay, it's just a delay. So that's why you didn't have a BCA meeting tonight because we still don't know what meetings we're going to have and when and why and what I have received the ballot from Rumney School, a draft ballot hasn't been signed, but it's just, the board members are listed as two years and three years, not until whenever the school district supposedly ends. There's no budget. There won't be a budget for U32 to vote on. They're, I assume they're going to, there's going to be a budget. I don't, so we don't normally vote on the central supervisory office, then there won't be a budget for the unified union school district to vote on. So it's kind of, everything is kind of up in the air and we don't have any answers. So how, how was there even authority to continue operating the schools at this point? I mean, have they passed some? Well, I think the school district was supposed to exist until June 30. It was just notification saying your school district, it's gone. Your don't like, you don't have, it's not going to the voters and asking them if it's gone, it's gone. And this came from the agency of education. But it's not gone until June 30. June 30. That's when it went. Oh, okay. All right. So they've got an approved budget to operate till June 30. Well, they approved it last March. Right, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. The only thing is, is, as is, is just we can't go ahead with anything for next year because they're going to jam it down our throat and rapid fire. Yeah, I think it's going to happen. It's just that question of how and when. Right. Right. May I have some special meetings to approve the budget? I think we're looking at at least three. There will be one for the new, the new, the temporary school district. There'll be one for the Articles Agreement and then there'll be one for all these budgets. You three, two, Romney, and the unified school district. Or maybe there won't be one for Romney. Why would there be one for Romney? Why isn't it just the unified school district? Right, that's right. I'm sorry. There won't be one for you 32. It's all going to be together. I was thinking that you needed something to carry through the other. No, no, no. And that's assuming nothing happens on the lawsuit. That's assuming nothing happens on the lawsuit. And what's really weird is that the, two or three years, even though that boy won't be around for two or three years. So I don't know why, why the district gave us this draft. Well, part of it is, as we discussed the last time, and I don't understand the two or three years, but there's going to be some continuing operation of the old entity after the, you know, and who knows how long that's going to last until they get all that really wrapped up and finalized and audited and all that. Well, we'll just put them in there and then when the organization cease to exist, their term of office ceases to exist. They probably also can't change the term of offices. You're probably right. They can't change. Yeah, without a vote. Right, you're probably right. That's probably the reason. And our jobs are dissolved as of. That's right. Our jobs are because I'm technically the clerk of a school district. Technically, the treasurer of the school district is going to be in June 30th. Yeah. No more schoolchecks. The job's going to easier than that. That's actually true! I couldn't help myself. So there has to be a clerk and a treasurer elected for the new district. I think in that temporary clerk and treasurer, I don't know why you have to have a special meeting if at March, if at the March meeting, but here's the other thing that's just kind of a weird wonky town clerk thing. Nominating petitions are due in June 30th. Yeah. Nominating petitions are due January 28th. So we haven't I assumed that we were going to have this special meeting on the 14th. There would be positions created and that then people would submit nominating petitions. But now we haven't had that meeting on January 14th. So they're We're going to have meeting after meeting after meeting. I just don't know when it's going to how it's going to all figure out. It sounds like for an off-election year, but you know what? That is not that's not for us to pay. That was one thing the town clerk very clear about. Who's going to pay for these? Not us. So there you go. That's all I have. It's going to be interesting to watch and also to be part of to the extent we are going to be part of it. Correspondents. Well, I don't know Paul's thing that he came today. That's kind of a weird thing. So you have everybody has this memo here. He needs to buy more sand and he's got an opinion about uniforms. Nothing that is actionable tonight, but he might want to give it a look. So how much you know? So it looks to me just eyeballing it. My practice is this time of year every time I drive by I pull in and look at the sandpops on that for years that we're about halfway through that sandpop right now. We're close. So now hopefully we're now into the plowing season and not the sanding season so much, but I guess we could get a little rain tomorrow depending on whose forecast you listen to. Really? It's no tonight though, right? Freezing rain and then some snow. I apologize I hadn't read the show. I just came over so. That last ice was horrible on the roads. I mean he did the best he could but it was just like walking on him was like on walking on an ice rink. I had to wear my grandfather's robe. I had my driver say it for the past five years. I've had my driver say it three times. Well I've got the easy to get home you slide downhill to get home but plus I have members of my family who are even more senior than I am coming for Christmas and they're not used to walking around on ice. I was scared to death. People would I told John Picard I said every time you go by you got my house with your sand truck just buzzed out. Don't go by without stopping. So I guess the question for me on this would be Steve I'm presuming the price is going to be higher because it's wintertime. So I'm not sure about that. I mean as far as the hauling I think the hauling will be the same price. I'm not sure I think gravel probably will stay with the same price he had to. He he is one of the only ones that opens up in the winter for sand he's had to do that before but I'm not that's not 100% sure but I'm thinking to stay with the same thing. If the price is halfway competitive I would get the extra sand. Go to the 1500 it just seems to me that every year we have more of these events and it's not like that sand is going to go bad if some of it sits there until next winter that's right we're going to be using it so I would rather do that than have to in the springtime mode have to get another 500 yards or something. I think that's the direction we'd want to go well that's sand in the spring. No you definitely don't want to be when the roads are good and hard and we would we would subcontract the trucking I presume yeah. Did everyone have any ideas what are your thoughts on the uniforms to you? Well I mean that may be a good idea I'm just I'm just going to be talked through the washer and dryer okay I'm not I'm not I don't have a warm fuzzy on the hand I just and I haven't really talked over all the Elm Street Launcher Matt would be glad to take on your washing requirements is that your business? yeah that's it's very good but I'm just I'm just telling you to buy the kind of washer and dryer you need to do those uniforms oh yes that is not you're not buying a $500 washer and dryer let's consider that with the new building yeah I'm just telling you right next to yes we're right next to the place we're right next to I'll be happy to show them how to operate a washer and dryer be careful there yet be careful what you wish for then they would have taken it up like that get the town clerk get her to do it the other thing is the uniforms are all iron they look presentable they it's not if the uniform rips they fix it you know so there's a lot to be said for uniforms believe me I had who would do the laundry that's there was a manpower of the person we're gonna be paying we're gonna be paying the road crew to wash their uniforms and dry them and press them no they're not gonna be pressing them I have a lot of convincing it's a lot to be said for uniforms no I agree no I agree on that that's why believe me I understand why their prices are going up they deliver them they everything they pay for is going up in cost so for me I'm willing to think about that or talk about it but just on the face I'm willing to think about it but that's about my mind but my mind is made up pretty much can I see the agenda I haven't talked with Paul in length about that at all but I wanted to talk with him at some point like when he isn't going out at three in the morning right and I like but believe me I like being presented with options and ideas I I just no I think that's great to do that you know I will never forget the few times I tried to I tried to do my own uniforms when I was in the army because I forgot to drop off my laundry to the army guys who starched and pressed your underwear and everything else and cleaned it with boiling water and bligh and whatever else they used to clean it with and there's no competing with that with that kind of stuff um orders have been signed you missed one thing there reviewing the draft of the select board we passed over it it's not not available the the hypothermic select board assistant when it's unable to complete the I it's just been crazy in this office for the past two weeks I think everybody has gone insane yeah I bought by earlier it's just been nuts well yeah it's just been I don't know all sorts of it's the time of year the first you know what are the neighbors doing and gunshots and runaway dogs gunshots yeah my grandson's again no it's just they're after those I had to deal with a complaint from Jersey this guy called up and said he wanted to come he said so he said do you guys he owns land here he said you guys like what's here you get together you have a meeting with everybody in town bitches right yeah it's called the town meeting it's been stuff like that this really distracting stuff sorry he has no standing he's not a voter I understand he understands that I sent him to Phil Scott and he's got a portion of his tax though oh no and there's nothing I said you know that's so you guys thought about doing anything about this she's just jeez yeah we have to keep it jeez jeez where do we stand with replacements for Steve on the plan commission did we appoint anybody yes we appointed Theo oh okay but but then there's a couple people who will be I still I's petitions have not been I've only had one petition delivered to me and that is from Dick Walden what about I think he was joining the budget committee but that wasn't the petition for that was for the budget that was for the budget but yeah that gets voted on I thought we'd like just appointed them nope okay that's right so we have no we only we only appoint them and we don't have people so I have to send out some more reminders for people to get their petitions and we have been really low in the number of petition special articles just wait what do they do just wait they're due on the seven the petition nominating petitions are due the 28th the petitions for special articles are due next Thursday you did it almost a good time Theo night so if you know anybody wants to run we're gonna have a lot of openings that's alright um where are we in our fuel tank we we have fuel I I I stop gender from proceeding I didn't want we would have had to let that concrete set for a minimum of 30 days because it was starting to get cold weather and I said I don't want to break that concrete I'm waiting till strength we got our so the tank is there we're just okay empty it when one spring comes we'll empty it pick it up for concrete any other business to come before the middle sex select board at this time I got an invoice oh I'm sorry I forgot you um you're unforgettable I forgot RB technologies so I now have a bill here for perception discounted hours I thought the reason we entered into a contract so we had workable hours we did well the last we went over well you know they should say that you know these are the hours this is what you went over I mean I don't know what to sign and I don't know who put the question mark check mark whatever there but I don't know what to pay and what not to pay well I think they do show it because this perception discounted hours here those are the hours that we buy the two hours for $130 that's what we're buying so that's the standard bill then but how do those they're charging us for those hours but how do they get used see now that would be a separate report we're buying two hours every month because now see they're see what they're doing is billing us for all these hours right and our two regular hours but does that just mean that they've already used up those two you know they ought to say took so that's the regular bill but like today there was that's the regular hours that we agreed to because there's two hours cloud storage is a separate thing antivirus is a separate thing so that's the regular bill professional laptop alert monitoring that's a regular thing so what happens server patch Sarah had problems with computers yesterday or today then that would go against the two hours speaking of that so I did talk to Steve Gillman about getting RAM because they were kind of dragging their feet on and it turns out they don't have RAM but also Steve said well actually what you need are new computers guys it just seems come on guys I do not need a new computer my computer is absolutely fine and it feels like it was just didn't we just get it yeah and we just had this conversation with Ruben when we met with him about what's coming up are we going to need to replace some other no no I think you know and that's where the RAM thing came from anyway this this looks this looks like the bill you should get every month but the thing you're bringing up is a separate thing that we ought to be getting from them an accounting of how they use it do we have hours in the bank do we have hours so if they center an activity report along with that to show us where we are because we should have some hours banked well we're due with a follow up for a follow up visit with Ruben so I'll have pressure with the pressure Phil 5G is coming so what's going to happen what's going to happen yeah are you going to need the fiber oh yeah even with the 5G yeah it'll be interesting to see what yeah what happens as far as oh you're okay good not the BCA meeting right what not the BCA meeting I'll join you guys okay is there a shovel someone yeah why we're trying not to shovel the front stairs on purpose we're encouraging people to use other access some crime scene tape yeah I don't have any but do you you must have some of your car you know that's crime scene they use it all up are you going to are you going to this meeting just for a little bit yeah okay because I don't want to stay here and have to lock out to them but I don't know people come in but you're oh I see what you're saying there might be people coming late and then lock us around I don't know I can lock it up okay no I can lock it up I just didn't get in sorry so did we ever get our light outside the back door no this is what I mean Don I said I left a message for him to redo these lights and he's gone I don't know where he goes and then he pops up again follow up follow up on the slide it must be Chris okay alright how are you happy new year everybody I hear by declare the meeting wait I would before you go one thing I would just I trust you one last thing really fast we need to eliminate the position of trustee of public funds because it was a bogus position unless we put on the ballot three trustees of public funds do you want me to create a position for three trustees of public funds or would you like to bring a question to the voters to eliminate it let's do that eliminate it enough trouble trying to get yeah we have to go either one way or the other yeah okay okay thanks no so what else we're on other than the select board we're on track for a yeah right because it's gonna be thrilled oh and I still need to give you my reports about things like food shelf no that's that too late Sarah Stevens and in a report for the Milford Leonard thing again I don't know why so so there's that oh I wonder why but yeah but when are those do were they do already through theoretically January 10th okay so I'll just double check I think it was the food shelf one and we'll just try to get everything as much done but now we've got the budget done that's incredible okay so I do have one last final little thing that is exactly what I anticipated what happened so here it comes so you've given the library a free pass on getting a petition what about CVHHH which really is human service relating I'm not I'm talking to everybody have they asked us what have they asked us someone who was near and dear to me who I have to sit across the dinner table from evening sit why are we standing out in front of the school in the freezing cold to get a petition for CVHHH when you guys give the library a free pass and I said you know what that's a fair question I mean anyone can ask that question right yeah usually you can submit to the slide board please put us on here but you know it's not a warned item for and the petition we're not going to change anything anything this year okay but it did bring I mean I anticipated something like that was going to happen and the question is are you willing to accept it from everyone else because that's going I don't think it's everyone else I don't think it's everyone else but you know right so meals on wheels CVHHH maybe the condition is that it has to be the same amount of the request of the previous year they have to get a petition and we're saying okay those really are vital community services or whatever yeah the exercise of the petition to me seems kind of foolish and having jumped the leap with the library it's pretty hard to look these other people in the eye and say I agree with that yeah so I think that's something we've got to talk about this year well first of all I think didn't part of this come from the town meeting solutions committee when I inherited this job in 2013 there was a whole thing about how town meetings like the questionnaire and you know petitions and requirements and everything else like that it all came from the town meeting solutions committee and it all mattered to basically nothing unfortunately you know it's been a frustration I mean it's been a frustration for all of us for a long time how to be fair how to do it the right way but I mean you know nobody's going to vote I mean I always said nobody's going to vote against the library nobody's going to vote against CVHH people may get aggravated about the report but hopefully Mary's gotten that straightened out now with the Meals on Wheels thing do we want to cut out the Meals on Wheels I don't think so so I'm just I'm just saying I got a little I got a little pillow talk about the waving the library I'm fine with having that conversation yeah I think we should so let's just all remember that we need because if we're going to have that we should be doing it next summer I'll grab my calendar put it on your to-do list list for next year to-do these things come up that I written like oh look we're supposed to talk about the building fun can I keep your brain about one other things while we're talking about the agenda I mean the morning how does everybody how do you guys feel changing taxes from two payments to four payments just want to hear feedback thank you I think from a budget standpoint I think some families might like that because it's cutting up there what they owe I personally just put money aside every month and then it just comes out automatically from my bank account so it's always there but I know that people do have a hard time with their taxes people seem to be under the impression although we've told them you know that because it says it's due on this day in this day that's the only time they think they can pay they have a hard time coming up with the thousand dollars instead of if they had you know say their bill is four thousand dollars instead of paying two and two they could pay a thousand a thousand could they pay every month to you we have just oh yeah they could say every week okay I just you know that was an option for people their account sends like two hundred and fifty dollars a month really yeah and I know they kind of and I wondered if it would be it always seems easier to pay a fifty dollar bill than it does a hundred dollar bill sure for everybody so can I ask a question yes how do you so we start charging interest on unpaid payment so you would do you would calculate the interest to be after it would be because it wouldn't be delinquent until payment four had been made right so they wouldn't the delinquent part to do that yeah but I mean it's just I wanted to see I didn't know if it would be beneficial or non beneficial or you know the idea isn't to make money on interest and maybe we could be creative with that side of it or something so I'm trying to think I'm trying to think because the city of Montpelier does quarterly yeah but I don't think you pay any interest just divide it up into four then what would be the if you missed the right oh if you miss a payment you pay right but if you make your four payments on time right it's just your tax bill divided by four that's it that's all we're doing too oh okay does it have to go to the voters to vote on yes in that article that says the treasure will collect taxes okay yeah yeah so they don't become delinquent until the February this is right now we have two payments so the one that's due in November if they don't make that payment they start paying a half a percent a month which is very minimum really so if we added a payment in between there what would happen is if they didn't make that first quarter payment they would start earning interest only on that quarter so I think it would all come the same on a quarter then when the second payment was due they'd be paying it on half and then so I don't think it would change the amount of money that we're collecting from them doesn't make extra work for the treasure isn't this going to offset the what we've just saved by not doing well no we process I mean we have to process checks every week anyway so that's no different it might make a little more that would be the other you would just have to get the word out that we're now in four payments but I don't know how do you feel Sarah I feel like we've already I can understand it from the consumers point of view from the taxpayers point of view having four payments psychologically is a lot easier from the bank point of view it's going to throw into a tizzy we had a hard enough time this year dealing with I did because we went down into payments because otherwise the banks would pay in full with a one percent discount so people were getting checks and saying what is this and you'd have to if you had some if you like had you know Wells Fargo or city core or some you know big bank like that it was really hard to work around that so it would be a lot of times do it just a matter of trying to find out what our terms are but I also think to the it's up to the it's up to the all right you know maybe we put a notice in there says remember to contact your bank and have your well the other thing too is that people who have their accounts who have their taxes escrowed don't have the trouble of paying their taxes because it's already escrowed and so you know it's a year but also or whatever kept changed it to four but made people aware that they don't have to live by those dates that they could pay monthly although is paying monthly truly a hassle for you if you were to automatically the way like you take out my taxes by automatic debit from my tax account I didn't realize that I actually could pay we process ACH twice a year that's what I mean so you're processing it with me twice a year right if that's what you set up you can you chose twice a year or once a year yeah and I chose twice a year oh I see so you're saying we're not going to go in and grab people's account some people could automatically have their accounts I see yeah like if you're at VSEC I could have a bill pay is that a hassle to you guys if I did that no I think I can't touch the money it's psychologically people it's easier for them to think of four payments I want the discount back they happen not happen everything is going forward we need to get electronic so are you having trouble with people making payments definitely the delinquent tax is up matter of fact I spoke to our law office about having them send out a letter after the February due day not have them act on a tax sale but at least initially just send out a letter and see if that scares our biggest problem I can see looking at the list of names is it's a lot of people who don't even live in town they're non-resident they own property they're non-residential you know and those that seem to be the ones that you know interesting I've always thought it should be cool I like it just because I'm so used to doing that in Montpelier and Barry and other places where I do business and if it isn't a big hassle for you guys and it's a benefit to some of the taxpayers what I would suggest is let's not put it on the warning for this year but let's have a discussion at ten meeting let's bring it up at ten meeting see what people have to say how do we bring it up at ten meeting at the end at the end could that question be vowed from the floor if no it has to be on the warning what you could do is you could put a warned article to put it into four payments with four payments with the dates and that the treasurer looks at by certain times you say okay well how about this I'll have it rewritten just the way we have it now with two payments well you don't have to oh it's you have to vote on it every year you have to vote on you have to say you have to say to really accept the treasurer but we do that anyway now you do it it has to be on the warning you have to say you will accept it by the close of business and after that it's a 5% interest until February 21 okay well can you make the article stay and the article would say the article would say four but then you'd say if the you know if the vote is no on the on the four the only thing the only thing I don't like about that is that sort of opens the door for all kinds of issues with regard to the budget article you know typically typically our budget article sales through quietly calmly it's a different it's a different article it's oh it is it's like oh I'm sorry it's article four so you go yeah I think it's like article two or three you know should we accept the reports of town officers blah blah blah then it's shall the treasurer accept twice payments let's do it then let's see what happens okay we'll come up with the dates and times okay yeah I just think it's yeah the other thing I can't see why it wouldn't pass I would think people so but here's here's like from a from the budgeting standpoint is that if it does get passed then you're looking at like April is your next payment or something like that no what would it be or would it start in November it wouldn't start until next budget year so the way we talked about it before it would start in September it right when we set the next but the next thing it would be the quarterly September January are you getting less money you're getting less money but people would have to come up with the money but now because now the budget is now it's September oh it's September I was thinking it was November no September okay so you would have to put it out there for a discussion so it doesn't matter either way well why don't we just put it on the morning you guys see what happens next week you can as Peter says you can think about it so we're going soul searching soul searching okay I just think the more you know a paypal account you know a lot of people use paypal sir I just found this on the ground it says sign here was there three things to sign no it just something fell off okay um but anything we can do to make it more convenient and easier for people we should be doing it because you know unlike unlike the days of the 3x5 cards and the ledgers and all that now with a computer those new fangled technology the new fangled technology would be difficult to get RAM so indefference to fill who I know has another meeting to go to let's cut this off don't forget about that some guys I I'll find it I still got it right on my thing I don't I don't think it's changed from the draft alright