Welcome to NTN Nightly, I am Genel Norvel. This edition, Stop Stories. The Ministry of Agriculture implements action plan responding to agricultural losses post-hurricane Elsa. The National Emergency Management Organization urges the public to remain on high alert and 24 students recognize in the YEPPS X-Tempo Challenge. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries, Physical Planning, Natural Resources and Corporatives has implemented an action plan with the view of addressing the agricultural damage caused by the passage of Hurricane Elsa. Anissa Antwan begins the broadcast. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries, Natural Resources and Corporatives conducted an initial assessment on the impact of Hurricane Elsa. The assessment looked at damages on the various extension and advisory services including the Fisheries Department, Livestock Division and Crop Extension Division. According to Permanent Secretary of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries, Natural Resources and Corporatives Barrymore Feliciae losses totaled more than 34 million dollars with banana and plantain farmers suffering the most with reported losses of 80% or more of their farms. We're looking in the region of 2,400 acres to 2,800 acres affected and over 600 farmers affected in that sector. We also saw to a certain extent fruit trees, root crops, vegetables were also affected in the crop extension area. In terms of fisheries, we saw that there were some damaged vessels by the denry area. Minimal losses though. We also saw CMOS farmers in the areas of Puala became affected. They had line losses of CMOS. In the area of Livestock Division, we saw about 70% damage to sheds, animal sheds. We saw some mortalities in terms of swine poultry in the livestock sector. So these areas have been affected. In terms of forestry, we saw some slides in the forest reserve. Also, you would have noticed that there would have been some fallen trees and some damaged trees in that area. Mr Feliciae reiterated the Department of Agriculture's commitment to assisting farmers. He notes that the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries, Physical Planning, Natural Resources and Corporatives is currently working on a support package for farmers. We are here today trying to finalize that support package and it will be communicated to the Executive to the Cabinet of Ministers for their deliberation and for their final approval. So once that is received, then we will communicate to our stakeholders what that support will be and in what form it will take. Farmers are advised to report their losses to their respective extension divisions. The extension facilities are located in Barbono, Bexo, Marigold, Souffre, Viewfort, Ager and Rich Four. From the Communications Unit of the Ministry of Agriculture, I am Anicia Antoine reporting. The Government of St Lucia is looking to build back better, stronger and more resiliently following the passage of Hurricane Elsa. The Category 1 hurricane battered the island on Friday 2 July 2021, claiming one life and living behind a trail of damage to infrastructure, homes and agriculture. During an update following the passage of the hurricane, Minister for Infrastructure, Ports, Energy and Labor, Hon. Stevenson King indicated that the country has commenced the implementation of programs to build its climate resilience. Are we resilient enough? No, we're not. We've still got a long way to go. There's need for us to look at what we are doing in terms of the engineering and structural measures in terms of resilience. And we also have to look at the bioengineering measures to help improve the road condition. And oftentimes I speak of the road conditions as not just merely the carriageway, but the carriageway, the shoulders, the drains and the environment. What sort of environment are we facilitating our road infrastructure and therefore in our new approaches, in the new approaches that we are developing within the Ministry of Infrastructure, we are taking very seriously the issue of resilience, resilience to climate change. The Infrastructure Minister explained that the Ministry's most recent program, that is the Road Improvement and Maintenance Program, RIM Phase 4, takes into consideration the threat of climate change. This program he noted has been specifically designed with the intention of improving St. Louisian's resilience. In terms of the road designs and what we are seeing emerging, it's not just a carriageway, but we're looking at stronger pavement strengths, pavement strengths that will take us probably 15 and 20 years before any destruction. Pavement strengths that can withstand the category 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 hurricanes. We're looking at drainage systems that can withstand those sort of phenomena. And we're also looking at pedestrian, because really the road infrastructure is really an element, a factor of production, which speaks to production in terms of transportation, movement of people, movement of goods, movement of services, and so you have to take that into consideration so that with a phenomena, in this case a category 1, but let's say a category 5, that notwithstanding that you would be able to deal with the issue of flooding and of course arresting any potential paralysis that may cause in terms of movement of people and movement of goods and services and transportation generally. And that is what we are factoring into our new designs, building a national standard, a national code of construction for our road infrastructure. The minister also highlighted the need for improvements to the country's utilities infrastructure. We noticed throughout the country, because of the heavy rainfalls and the impact, we noticed a number of utility poles being knocked down throughout the country. And that in itself is probably one major element in climate resilience in infrastructure. How do you continue to build infrastructure that can protect your utility lines? Of course you need utility for electricity, for communication, and for services generally. And therefore in new construction of road infrastructure, we now need to say how do we build to protect the utility services? And the answer to this is being able to build on the ground with stronger pavements, with the necessary ducting of the lines, and therefore if we are able to protect our land in terms of protecting the potential of land slippage, then it means that we would have been able to deal with the issue of damage to the utility infrastructure. That was Minister for Infrastructure Ports Energy and Labor Honourable Stevenson King. The National Emergency Management Organization NIMO is urging members of the public to remain in a state of constant preparedness. NIMO, while still conducting damage assessments in the aftermath of the passage of Hurricane Elsa, highlighted the unpredictable threat of natural disasters, especially during the hurricane season. We get details in this report. The National Emergency Management Organization NIMO continues to assess the impact of the passage of Hurricane Elsa to roads, infrastructure, lives, and livelihoods with a view of returning St. Lucia to a sense of normalcy. Director of NIMO, Doreen Gustave, sees the opportunity to offer condolences to the family and loved ones of Peter Victor Fossey-Jacques, who lost his life during the passage of the hurricane. The director, noting the devastation caused by Hurricane Elsa, urged members of the public to ensure that they remain in a constant state of preparedness. NIMO received reports of partial and total damage to homes throughout the island. On Saturday, July 3rd, the Prime Minister, an official from Infrastructure and Myself, did an aerial reconnaissance to have a view of the damage, and as was mentioned previously, the damage to the banana fields were quite visible. Indeed, the agriculture sector suffered extensive damages. Please be reminded that we are still in the midst of an active Atlantic hurricane season, and based on the destructive nature of these tropical activities, you are advised to continue with the hurricane preparedness if you have not done so. Your preparedness plan should include, for example, a family plan, a business plan, assessment around your home and property to identify the hazards. The director reminded the public of the very real and present threat and danger of such disasters which have only worsened due to the impact of climate change. These disasters continue to threaten societies, both economically and socially, as well as lives and livelihoods. We have about 15 more storms remaining, and it takes only one to cause catastrophic effect on any one country. With the rise in climate change, we have seen the rapid intensification of hurricanes, for example, tropical storm Elsa changing rapidly into a hurricane within a short space of time. This behavior could have only been made possible due to climate change and the effects of climate change on our small island development states, and this could only be mitigated through preparedness. Preparedness also builds on the resilience of people, and as a nation it is our desire to become resilient. Hurricane Elsa passed over the island on Friday the 2nd of July 2021. On the lighter side, 24 students will recognize for making bold statements against crime and violence in their communities through the art of X-Tempo. Jesse Leos has a report on the Youth Empowerment Project's Anti-Crime and Violence Youth X-Tempo Challenge prize-giving ceremony. During a recent awards ceremony, officials of the Royal St. Lucia Police Force and the Ministry of Equity, Social Justice, Local Government and Empowerment tipped their hats off to the participants of the Anti-Crime and Violence Youth X-Tempo Challenge for the creativity and conviction that they brought to the stage on June 6th. Coordinator for the Ministry's Youth Empowerment Project, Joanne Husbands, says the initiative successfully yielded fresh insight on the issue of crime and violence and how it can be tackled. We were able to get an idea of their perceptions, their concerns and possible solutions as youth as it relates to crime, violence, safety and community development. And as well, they endeavored to educate persons about preventative strategies that other youth like themselves and persons in the wider community can employ. The topics ranged from bullying, violence against women, the justice system and ways to improve the living standards in the communities. Assistant Commissioner of Police Dr. Mashama Seely recalls the hesitance of some of the participants when they realized during the workshop that there was so much more to annex temple than rhyming lines. She thanks them for rising to the challenge. Because I attended at least one of your workshops. I saw where you started off, where some people were afraid to... They didn't want to participate after having gone through some of the workshop activities because they felt they may not be ready in time. But I'd like to also congratulate you for your bravery. I also love the messages that were portrayed by the participants. We heard the challenges that they face when it comes to gang violence, domestic violence, parenting and other social issues that affect us every single day. Jim Xavier, Deputy Director of the Social Transformation Community Services Unit with the ministry has committed to continue collaborating with the Royal St. Lucia Police Force in efforts toward enhancing safety and security in St. Lucia's communities. I want to see this as a deepening of collaboration between the Ministry of Equity and the Royal St. Lucia Police Force and of course the community at large. Because as we've said, crime is everybody's business. We cannot just leave it to the police officers to tackle the issue of crime. Even the students, you have a role to play. And so I would want to compliment the year program of course for funding and taking initiative to really advance this program. I want to again compliment the teachers and the parents who would have assisted in the students in developing them. The Anti-Crime and Violence Youth Ex-Temple engaged 24 participants in three age categories from various schools and communities in castries. The feedback obtained from the participants will be used by the Royal St. Lucia Police Force to create new strategies to tackle the issues of crime and violence. For the Government Information Service, I am Jesse Leons reporting. Bank of St. Lucia and St. Lucia Workers Credit Union partner in a historic collaboration to provide credit union members with contactless debit cards. A small ceremony with stakeholders last week marked the official launch of this new milestone the birth of the St. Lucia Workers Credit Union visa card powered by Bank of St. Lucia. We have more in this report. 2020 Bank of St. Lucia launched its contactless visa credit and debit cards. Today the financial institution is extending this important convenience banking service to members of the St. Lucia Workers Credit Union by way of this partnership. According to Deputy Managing Director Lyndon Arnold, accessibility to one's funds is important and a priority for every financial institution and BOSL is extremely excited to share this innovation with the staff and members of the St. Lucia Workers Credit Union. Because since the onset of COVID last year, what we've seen now as a norm are the long queues outside of banks, supermarkets, utility companies and it is really not an efficient use of our time in terms of that queuing. And that passion has translated into us at Bank of St. Lucia finding ways of how we can better serve our customers to allow them to make better use of their time. And I remember on a few occasions in recent weeks having to pass across the Derrick Walcott Square there and realize that outside your entrance doors those queues also exist. But guess what? With the card now those queues can be shortened. In addition to being able to access funds at all Bank of St. Lucia ATMs, local ATMs and 1 million ATMs worldwide, card holders will be able to shop online and make use of the card to make purchases locally and globally. The President and General Manager of the Credit Union were present and shared their zeal and appreciation for the project finally coming to fruition. Today I somehow feel very humbled by this occasion and humbled why because I think that a small organization which started out of a briefcase based on the ideas of a few persons with a vision to create something that could last, something that could provide the means to empower not just their staff but later on much of St. Lucia is now taking an even greater step. We have come a long way and we are here right now with a product that is going to benefit our members. We know what COVID did and we saw our members being disadvantaged during the COVID times not being able to access their funds when the Credit Union was closed and today I would say that we are ready should another pandemic God forbid happen our members are now positioned whereby they would not be left out in the cold. Member of the St. Lucia Workers Credit Union Leslie Collimer says that despite the fact that people see Credit Unions as a savings institution it's equally important to be able to give members that option. The technology has been there within the last 12 to 15 years but what the pandemic has taught us is it's made it mandatory to move into the digital space and not everybody has the expertise or appetite for it and so the Credit Union actually being driven enough to take that step and partnering with entities such as Bank of St. Lucia who is tried and tested and have the expertise was a really smart move. Since the advent of COVID-19, Bank of St. Lucia has launched and implemented a plethora of technologically advanced initiatives aimed at improving convenience and safety for customers. Customers can expect to hear more exciting news of new services and partnerships in the near future. For the Government Information Service, I am Jesse Leans reporting. The Division of Transport wishes to inform the general public of the resumption of services in the Southern Transport Division effective July 8, 2021. In addition, the Division would like to take this opportunity to apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused to its customers in the Southern Transport Office. This is NTN Nightly. Up next, Primers Hutchinson with the NTN Nouvelle Aquillon. One of the eight universally recognized rights of the consumer is the right to satisfaction of basic needs. This means that every consumer has the right to basic goods and services that guarantee survival. This right includes adequate food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, education, water, and sanitation. Welcome back. We join Primers Hutchinson for the NTN Nouvelle Aquillon. Thank you, General. Thank you, Madam Debattement. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to inform the Government on this issue. This is GIS. This is the NTN Nouvelle Aquillon. This is Primers Hutchinson. Thank you very much to the Minister of Tourism, Donaldine Vite. I would like to thank you to the Minister of Tourism for the opportunity to talk about business and tourism. This is Selma for hotels. Thank you very much to the Minister of Tourism for the opportunity to talk about business and tourism. This is Selma for hotels. This is the Canadian village to open a business and tourism business in Belvedere, which is called Cocosetlisi. Cocosetlisi is the initiative of Madam Maria Jackson and Mrs. Alexis Jackson. According to the Secretary of the Interior, the Government has established an opportunity to open a business and tourism business even though Madam Jackson has already done it. This is the way to do tourism. We are here to make money. We are here to visit this place. We love this place.  We want to eat this place. We want to eat this place. This is the couple, Maria and my wife, Fejordia, to open a big restaurant for the restaurant and a place for chocolate coffee. And the people here, we also do it. We do not go to hotels, we buy tourism. We have waterfalls, we are here to visit our property. We buy water, we wash our hands. We come here to make money. We are the Ministry of Tourism. We are here to be friends as a waterfront cast. We are here to make money. We do not do business. We do business. I would like to sell chocolate, I would also like to sell coffee, so that we can understand other people who are doing tourism, so that we can also join from the industry. Ma'am, I also forgot, the government has a lot of people who are working here, to find a way to pay taxes with lots of assistance. So, it's not just hotels, all those who join here, who want to make a restaurant, who want to make a baguette con entor, to visit tourism, or to join customs duty. So, come, just talk to us, we have a lot of resources to tell you how to make it easier for you. Speaking of that, chocolate business in the village of Kanawi benefits a lot from Kanawi, but in general, that is the opinion of the head of the support for the business, that is export St. Lucia, Ma'am Zelle Sonnet Daniel. Ma'am Zelle Daniel, who is also present to earn money to make a chocolate business in Belvedere, that is Koko Settlesi. So, I would like to ask the government to provide good benefits for the village, and Settlesi in total. To make a shy impact to the Kanawi community, we would like to thank you, and also Maria, who is a business worker, and also a farm worker, because this business impacts the family and the community. So, we would like to thank you for your support. Head of Education, Dr. Fiona Meyer, Minister, I have started an assessment to determine and manage the damage that education institutions have done in the country before passing the Elser cycle. According to Dr. Meyer, the effort is to establish a better environment for the students to follow the school. Head of Education, Majority of damage is in the school that is located in Settlesi, which is in Boccage. Dr. Meyer says that there are four schools that can be affected by the water supply in Soffuier and the result is that the schools are not allowed to be closed. Moreover, the primary school that can be affected by the water supply in Settlesi is the one that all universities are trying to do. Dr. Meyer makes an assessment to determine whether the school should be closed. Head of Education, Majority of damage is in the school that can be affected by the water supply in Soffuier and the result is that the schools are not allowed to be closed. Dr. Meyer says that there are four schools that can be affected by the water supply in Soté, in the school of Péyer and in the construction. Dr. Meyer makes an assessment to determine whether the school should be closed before the school closes on July 9, 2021. Head of Education, Dr. Fiona Meyer says that the parents who play the students who are in the school can be affected by the water supply. I would like to say today that we have a great time and we will have an invitation to say what do you think about the water supply and result. Let's get started. I'm Pell Primers That brings us to the end of NTN Knightly. Join us next time at 7 p.m. with a repeat at 7 a.m. You can also catch up with us anytime Facebook page or YouTube channel. I am Janelle Novel.


OK, welcome back. This panel has sort of a mysterious title. I say mysterious because it may be a question that is unanswerable, but the title of this panel is, what is the, quote, privacy interest in a public record? We all recognize the inherent tension there. And this is the point of the conference, for those of you who have attended before, where we try to bring before you some people who will, we hope, sort of raise the level of your thought a little bit. This is what we have sometimes referred to as our academic panel. And actually, this time we do have three professors. And so these are not necessarily people who are always involved in the sort of front line issues that you are mainly working on in the public access and privacy policy development area. But these are people who have done writing and teaching and thinking about these issues. And I think they have some very interesting insights for us. I'm just going to mainly function as the umpire here. I'm going to make a very brief introduction and then turn it over to each one of them for roughly 15 minutes or so. We'll pause between each of them and see if we get some dialogue going with you. And then hopefully we'll leave quite a bit of time in the second half of the program to have some dialogue among the panelists and with all of you. So I'll introduce in the order that they will be appearing. First, we have Professor Helen Nissenbaum. And just one moment here. Professor Nissenbaum is a professor of media, culture, and communication as well as computer science at New York University. She studies the, quote, social, ethical, and political implications of computing and information technologies. And so she will be giving us some insights in those areas. Then we'll hear from Professor Peter Martin, Professor and former dean at the Cornell Law School. He teaches and writes about, and I'm quoting here, the impact of technology on the functioning of law and legal institutions. It's also relevant here, I think, that Professor Martin was the co-founder of the Cornell Legal Information Institute, which for those of you who have had occasion to do research or did 15 years ago have occasion to do internet research on primary sources of law, you'll know that it was basically one of the first sources of primary legal sources on the internet. And it's still a great resource. I understand he's not as involved as he used to be, but I think it's a great resource for all of us. Peter Nguyen will be our third speaker. Professor Peter Nguyen, he is also an assistant US attorney, has been since 1997 in Washington, the state of Washington now. He teaches privacy law and cyber crime law at the University of Washington Law School. And he's written some articles on privacy law, and in particular on access to court records in the federal arena. So I'm going to turn it over to Professor Helen Isenbaum first. I'm going to just talk from down here so I can see what I'm doing. Again, I have a day job at the Department of Justice, and the views you're hearing are not the views of the Department of Justice. I have to say that before I open my mouth in public. I'm going to be repeating a lot of the things that Peter Martin has just said, as well as Helen, Isenbaum. Just a little different perspective. The perspective I want to start with, everyone's been talking about architecture. It's helpful for me, when I think about online access to court records and the problems, is to think about the days before paper, really the days when parchment was about the only way you could record things. And litigation took place in public in a very literal way. It took place in the marketplace. This is Westminster Hall. And everybody basically, the three courts were there, Chancellery, King's Bench, Common Pleas. And then the merchants are there too. Everything's taking place in public because there's no other place to handle litigation because the community is necessary to make sure that the rules are being followed and the litigants are following up on the conclusion of the litigation. It's impossible to have a trial in secret because everything is taking place in the open. Now, the focus of the medieval trial was to get the dispute resolved. And to a very large extent, that is still the focus of what courts do. They resolve disputes. Now, in the Renaissance, when they invented printing, suddenly there was a higher literacy rate. And it was possible for the first time to read legal decisions, publish legal decisions, have published statutes, think about the law in terms of general rules, and to keep records of what courts did. And it was also possible for the first time to have a secret legal proceeding. Now, these were very controversial at the time. And the Star Chamber has inherited perhaps wrongfully a bad reputation because when it was used by Charles I to go after his political enemies, I think the political enemies went after Charles I. The result of that conflict in the early modern period really led to the modern conception of law which was the idea of law representing an agreement of private individuals which came together in the context of legislatures to formulate the law on the behalf of the public. The idea was the public itself or the public sphere is the source of the law. And that government institutions, whether they're the legislature, the executive of the courts, they represent the public. The public is the principal. And the government institutions like the courts work for the public. They're the servants, the agents of the public. And from that principle, it's really critical that the public have access to government information or information about the courts to allow the public to participate in the essence of what they do and to hold their principal, hold the courts, hold the legislature, hold the executive accountable. That's reflected in the political theory and of the time. The idea is that the public has an inherent right to monitor and be involved in the judicial process. And you can see that in the architecture of the time. This is a picture of the old Bailey. And you see all around the judges and the barristers and the solicitors and the parties, you see balconies where the public can watch the legal proceedings. And of course, in the modern US architecture, we see the same ideology reflected. The pews are there to allow the public to watch and keep track of what's going on with their government. Now, the reality has always been, however, that the courts have had to balance this important value of access against the need to manage information. A lot of disputes involve private information, and Peter's gone through quite a lot of it, family law, torts, business disputes, bankruptcy, administrative, all of these civil cases involving sensitive personal information, sensitive business information. In criminal cases, it involves not only sensitive personal information and potentially business information, but also information that affects third parties, witness retaliation concerns, concerns about fair trials, concerns about protecting juries, concerns about making sure that juries aren't googling defendant's criminal records. Those kinds of concerns have always been reasons why the information has been managed within the judicial system. And again, I think I wanna emphasize that it's not simply a privacy versus publicity balance, there's also a concern at the point of getting to a fair trial. I mean, if a juror has access to a defendant's prior criminal record, if a juror can go online and retrieve a motion to suppress information that was granted, suddenly the jury is gonna know that there was a ton of coke that was seized by the, you know, seized from the person's home when a search warrant was executed without probable cause. And I don't know if the jury is necessarily going to be particularly concerned about the fairness of that proceeding to the defendant. Likewise, many of the rules of evidence that we have involves suppression of information and limitation of information to the jury. And much of that information that's removed from the province of the jury through the application of the rules of evidence becomes implicated when all court information simply goes up online. You know, of course, we were protected from much of the problem here by the system of practical obscurity. And the ability to have a system of practical obscurity permitted so much to happen while the document could still be public, okay? So that we could, you know, as I say later, we can sort of have our cake and we can eat it too. We can have our publicity and eat it too. And the problem, however, with what we face with practical obscurity is that practical obscurity also shields much of the information that needs to be public so that the public can hold decision makers and courts accountable. And Peter Martin went through, I think, very, very helpfully, pointing out that the legal standard for sealing is when you actually go through and do statistical reviews of the court files, more often than not the courts are not applying the legal standard for sealing a document which harms this public interest. At the same time, we also know that the private interests that are protected by rules that we've established saying that you're not supposed to file social security numbers in the court pleadings, those two are not being followed. And so the practical obscurity of the legal system also shields much of that information from public scrutiny as well. Also, there's a lot of detritus for one of the better word, Judge Smith, who's a magistrate, judged down in Houston, went through the clerk's office and noticed that the Department of Justice had never bothered to file motions to unseal applications for electronic surveillance. And they just, as he said, accumulated in the clerk's office like kudzu. Well, that's sort of the world we were in in the days of practical obscurity. Now, my focus has been primarily on PACER because that's the system I'm most familiar with, but I think many of the things I'll say will be hopefully applicable to the State Courts as well. You know, when we go to a system like PACER, we get a ton of benefits. I mean, it just makes the lives of the judges, the lives of the lawyers, and the lives of the clerks enormously convenient.  The ability to just go on, file my pleadings at 11 p.m. at night, you know, from home, is just an enormous benefit, and I wouldn't want to give that up. At the same time, we have the sorts of concerns that Peter Martin expressed, which is how do you deal with the secondary uses of the information by data aggregators? There's an increasing reluctance on the part of businesses to use the court system, because they're concerned about the disclosure of confidential and sensitive business information on the internet. Individuals are always exposed potentially to identity theft, public shame, embarrassment, and then we also have this additional problem about the administration of justice, the jurors are now in a potential position of circumventing many of the rules of due process that we're comfortable with and familiar with from the days of practical obscurity, that practical obscurity in many ways permitted to take place. And then of course we have, again, the sort of who's a rat.com problem where the plea agreements are being put up online which are used effectively to identify snitches, mostly in prison, although in any gang type of prosecution, it creates an enormous problem for safety, the safety of cooperating defendants and cooperating witnesses. If you have a snitch jacket in prison, it's basically a contract on your life. So we have in the case of the who's a rat.com problem, you know, we're really in a completely different world. And the world is different because the values of public access and oversight apply to a plea agreement. And yet that same information places in jeopardy the lives of cooperating defendants. This is a really difficult problem. I don't want to say that this is easy. There are three general solutions that I've often thought of. You can obviously try to get the lawyers to not file pleadings with social security numbers in them to get the lawyers to redact what they file, to get ceiling orders appropriately, follow the standard, try to avoid file, don't put the stuff in the court record if it's going to harm somebody. As we know, however, from studies, the lawyers and judges and the studies that were done on the public resource.org indicated both opinions as well as judicial filings by attorneys failed to follow the social security prohibition rule. We have a lot of bad habits that have remained from the days of practical obscurity. And we also know that agreed ceiling orders are still routinely granted in violation of the standard because if the parties agree, there's no dispute and judges are used to resolving disputes. We can come up with better legal rules and in the federal judicial conference, they certainly have tried very hard to come up with and be creative in terms of offering options. My favorite, of course, the rule of not filing social security numbers is there. They also have an additional rule in the new rule that was promulgated in December of last year of an intermediate access rule, where parties for good cause, which is a lower standard than the compelling interest standard you need to seal a record, but just for good cause or a good reason, allow the parties to file a document offline. That is, it's not private, it's not public, but they can opt into a world of practical obscurity. And that's a, you know, it hasn't really been explored very much, but I think that's a very interesting possibility. Again, we have the problem of education and the problem of the failure to follow the rules. We can come up with much better technology. The rules have, I mean, this is three ways, you know, the rules reference the technology, the technology references the rules, but the technology could be improved quite a lot. And there are different ways in which the technology can have delayed access. We talked about the 10 day delay rule here. So there's opportunities in technology to have automatic redactions. There's also things technology can do. But we also have the problem that the, I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead, but we have the problem that the Congress has not appropriated any funds so that the courts can buy better technology. The state courts are always struggling to get funds to buy better technology. And we still have the problem of downstream secondary use of the data not being regulated. There's switching costs that people have once they get a system up and running. It's very difficult to come up with a new system. So we have these three ideas. We have better technology, better rules, and better training for lawyers and judges. But at some level, all three of those seem to be unable to really solve the problem. And what I wanted to sort of toss out for the crowd is the idea that there's a fourth component that needs to be part of the analysis. And that's what we call information economics. And the book that I read that gave me this idea is written by Shapiro and Varian. And they point out something that's obvious when you think about it, is that information is a means to communicate, but when you have it collected in large computer systems, it becomes a commodity. It becomes data. And it operates with very different economic rules from the way information works when it's used by individuals to communicate with each other. First of all, you start to have positive and negative networking effects. In other words, the benefits are magnified, but also the detriment of information disclosure and magnified. So you're working with an exponential factor instead of a sort of a normal factor when you communicate to an individual. The copy and dissemination of electronic information takes place at zero marginal cost. In other words, once you've acquired that information, it costs nothing to sell it. So no matter how much you pay for it up front, if you can get a market for somebody to sell, you can always make money. You can also recombine it with other data to create something that's even more valuable. And because of those economics, it's actually in the interest of somebody who's in the commercial data selling business to have increased acquisition costs. The more expensive it is to obtain the information in the first interest, the better it is for the downstream sellers of the information because it protects their market. It's better for them to have the switching costs. And the technology becomes extremely important to understand the technology and understand how it relates to the type of uses and misuses that are available is also important. So what you lead to is the idea of responsible information management. And this is an idea I think that Helen Nissenbaum really focuses in on with her idea of a principle of transmission, context-relative information. The idea is that you want to use the information and set up controls on the information, controls meaning better training, better rules, better technology, that you want to have in mind as a goal here the idea of increasing the positive externalities and reducing the negative externalities. You want to increase public access to core judicial records. You want to facilitate the review of aggregate data to make sure that we're in a position to, for one of a better word, call bullshit on people who aren't applying the rules. You want to facilitate academic and empirical statistical review of how judges and lawyers are performing. And you want to use that information in order to feed back into the loop of making better rules, better technology and better training. At the same time, you want to reduce negative externalities. You want to protect business, private information and law enforcement, sensitive information to the extent appropriate. You want to oversee the commercial secondary use of aggregate information. You want to make sure that the downstream use of information is appropriate with the public interest.  To do that, you can't really do that in the context of a case-by-case decision-making process. You can't do that in the context of dispute resolutions because you're having to really look at the forest and not the trees. And judges are basically in the business of resolving disputes at the tree level, not at the forest level. You need to have an administrative approach in order to do the empirical data review to come up with more efficient enforcement structures and to come up with better rules, technology and training. Various things are possible at the administrative level that are not possible at the individual case level.  You can contractually regulate commercial data aggregators downstream, data dissemination and others. You can analyze data from a systemic point of view to see across the entire universe of your data how effective are these rules to limit the filing of social security numbers or how effective are the ceiling rules being followed? And you can informally send warning letters to counsel and court to let them know that they're non-compliant. And you can come up with technological standards to facilitate better citation formats, redaction rules. You can come up with things at an administrative level that simply are not possible to approach from a case-by-case level. And I would leave you with this analogy. In the 19th century, the way pollution was dealt with was through nuisance lawsuit. An individual would file a nuisance lawsuit against another individual that was polluting. And that worked OK in the 19th century. But in the 20th century, the common law nuisance doctrine broke apart. And you needed some form of agency approach in order to address the situation where there simply were too many different kinds of both positive and negative externalities for those interests to be reflected in a single one-off lawsuit. So I want to leave you with those ideas and hopefully get some feedback from you because the reality is I've been learning way, way, way more than I could ever hope to share with you from the wealth of experience in this room. Thank you. Thanks, Peter. Well, we do have a little.