Good morning traders and welcome to the bookmap pro trader webinar series today's last day Friday 10 a.m. We have Doug plus you guys may have heard of him He's been doing some excellent work in Twitter and in our discord chat room so You'll probably see that yeah, he's trading futures, but also stocks and the two together As well looking at for example the Nasdaq e-mini as well as the Q's and You know gleaning some Insights from those and then also he's been very engaged in the spot gamma Options levels within within bookmap here. So I'm looking very forward to the the presentation here Trader bio here. Let's just read through it. Doug began trading options in 2008 focusing on selling premium strategies He learned to trade options from a variety of traders and mentors including Don Kaufman's Scott Kramer Dan Sheridan and Tom Sosnoff So from the thinkorswim guys in 2017. He left a career In engineering information technology began trading full-time after being introduced to futures trading in 2019 he began to seek a deeper understanding of futures markets order flow and why price reacts at certain levels He discovered book map in early 2020 and spot gamma a year later. He currently trades futures and stocks full-time actively participates in the book map discord chat room and post content daily in the chat room and on Twitter and writes articles for spot gamma. So here are some links to Those resources here. I'm putting them into the chat for you guys So you can click directly on them and go check them out. So you don't need to copy them down I need to go through the disclosures here and then we're going to turn it right over to Doug Everyone can hear me, right? Audio and video if you can just say yes in the questions Okay, okay, great All right general disclosure all book map limited materials information and presentations are for educational purposes only and should not be considered specific investment advice nor recommendations live trading is in simulation demo paper trading mode and strictly for educational purposes Live trading executed in simulation cannot accurately represent realistic trading performance I don't think Doug is trading live, but I'm just going through it anyway risk disclosures Trading futures equities and digital currencies involve substantial risk of loss And it's not suitable for all investors an investor could potentially lose all or more than the initial investment Risk capital is money that can be lost without jeopardizing one's financial security nor lifestyle Only risk capital should be used for trading and only those with sufficient risk capital should consider trading past Performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. All right, so let's get started here and let me turn it right over to Doug Welcome Doug Hey Bruce, can you hear me and see my screen? Yep looks good. Okay Right. I'm gonna go go in slideshow mode here. All right. So everything looks good. Yeah, you're all set to go Okay, great. All right. So good morning. Good afternoon everyone Today I'm going to talk about my trading approach from planning preparation All the way through to execution And first I'm going to talk about the approach itself and then I'll go through several examples and then finally I'll talk about the tools that I use and then present some takeaways and You know, feel free to ask questions at any time and Bruce will be reading those First I want to start with an interesting quote from Jim Dalton that I found in his book and mind over markets and I'll let you read the the full quote if you want the The the meat of it is that most market Participants in fact most people in general Would rather be given a set of rules to blindly follow than to have to use personal insight and innovative thought Well, I guess I'm in the minority. I've always wanted to know why I've taken the approach of trying to understand the market first before trading And as Bruce mentioned in the introduction I was introduced to futures trading in late 2019 by By an organization that teaches all aspects of trading futures stocks and options long-term short-term With a number of instructors there and the futures instructor Teaches in queue he trades in queue and teaches a system for in queue Based on levels that repeat every 100 points and in queue And this made no sense to me I wanted to know why price would react at certain levels So I started doing research and trying to find answers and I found book map on YouTube in January 2020 after watching several of the YouTube videos Price action and why it would react at certain levels started to make sense and Book map just made a lot of sense to me And Bruce did a does a great job with the YouTube videos and You know again presents Book map very clearly and concisely and it made a lot of sense to me So as it turns out have I found as I found out later In queue does react at certain levels, but those are based on liquidity Profound numbers and key gamma levels in both in queue itself as well as the queues the QQ queue and I'll talk more about that later So as I mentioned, I Was an options trader before learning to trade futures and I found Book map soon after being introduced introduced to futures trading so I Was actually learning book map at the same time that I was learning to day trade both futures and stocks So what I want to do now is point out some of the Education sources that have really helped me along the way First book map Offers incredible education Starting with the educational videos that come with your subscription the daily webinars both with Bruce covering order flow and Scott Pulsini and Jay trader Showing how they trade futures and stocks and then all the videos on the YouTube channel that like the features and components playlist and the pro trader webinar series And Bruce is a master of order flow. I Highly recommend watching his daily webinars So the second source is spot gamma Brent Kachuba Has introduced to me and probably most retail traders a new way of looking at the market and price behavior Based on market maker hedging flow And this is really kind of formed the basis of my my approach to trading Spot gamma off also offers great education Brent has done a number of the pro trader webinar Pro trader webinars as well as Has the YouTube channel and then Jay trader and Scott Pulsini Both professional traders that present weekly in the Daily webinars and from them I've learned planning discipline preparation and also their setups with Jay trader his J lines and then Scott Pulsini with the stops and icebergs and Finally last but not least the book map discord chat room Has really been a great help to me in a breakthrough It's been great being able to participate in Intelligent discussions about book map order flow and trading every day and to present my thoughts and to to help others and There's some great traders in there Ready and willing to Help anyone who's interested in learning Tom David trader HE Moby Yuri and others You know again, it's been great being able to participate there So I took ideas from all of these sources and develop my own approach that makes sense to me and So now I'm going to talk talk about that approach and So based on what I've learned from these sources and my own observations I've come up with a couple of key tenets for trading and the first is options trading and the resulting market maker hedging activity as a key driver order flow and equity index futures Such as ES and NQ And this is this is what I've learned from spot gamma And Brent at spot gamma has talked about this Extensively so As a brief example, let's say well first in a sense really then We're saying that I'm saying that options trading is is driving the futures market and As an example, let's say traders buy buy calls or sell puts In the SPX index Then the market makers take the opposite side of that trade and they have to buy future futures to hedge their delta exposure So keep in mind that market makers want to remain due to Delta neutral. They're just there to facilitate order flow So, you know again if the the options flow is bullish then then generally market makers are going to be Buying futures since they're taking the the opposite side of those trades to hedge their delta exposure and Couple of points here one the only way to hedge trades in SPX is through ES futures and So SPX and spy options trading is driving Hedging in ES futures and then in turn is driving ES order flow and again, Brent has talked about this that Market makers are in the market all day long Making markets and hedging and Then for NQ NDX and QQQ and I would really discount NDX It's it's really not much of a factor. So really QQQ Option trades Is driving NQ hedging which is driving NQ order flow So that's the first first of my key tenets and the second is that price seeks liquidity key gamma levels and round numbers and liquidity Let's take take NQ for example would be both in NQ itself as well as the Q's and I've shown that in a number of posts and in examples and then The key gamma levels would for NQ would primarily be what would be an NDX and QQQ and for For ES it would be an SPX and spy and then finally round numbers and for NQ that would be NQ itself again as well as QQQ and I would say Actually the round numbers and and the Q's are probably more important than the round numbers and NQ So my approach They're really four parts to it First is the thesis this is what to expect for the day The second is the trend which way is the market going? The third is the target. Where's price going? I like to I like to have a target on every trade I want to know Which way you know again which way price is going or you know have an idea and then a target and then finally the trigger that's when to enter the trade and that's That's based on order flow So I'll talk about these and in more detail So first is the is my thesis and for my thesis for the day I want to have an idea of the anticipated volatility Trading range and then a directional bias So volatility and anticipated volatility and in trading range are Generally easier to It's very it's easier to have an idea of these two than a directional bias So the basis for my thesis that how I gather information To develop my thesis Is based on first the spot gamma morning report so spot gamma subscribers get Two reports daily one in the morning one in the afternoon and the the morning report includes a number of metrics for both ES SPX and NQ NDX QQQ As well as a narrative describing I guess summarizing some of the metrics and and what What may happen during the day So I'm going to go over these briefly the things that I look at maybe give a Like a one-sentence description and for anyone who's interested in learning more I guess it's really beyond the scope of This presentation, but I highly recommend taking a look at Spot gamma that the website as well as their YouTube channel so The spot gamma gamma index is a Proprietary measurement of total gamma Again, this is something that's unique to spot gamma and Based on historical data A positive number indicates a lower volatility day and a negative number would Indicate or lead Point to a higher volatility day Next is the gamma notional and this is the sum of the call gamma minus put gamma So a positive number Would indicate that the underlying is dominated by call gamma and that that generally points to a lower volatility Negative gamma notional Indicates put gamma or put dominance and that would generally point to a higher higher volatility and then A high number Positive number Would also indicate that market makers are going to be trading against price So as price moves up market makers are selling and his price Moves down market makers are buying so more of a mean reverting range range type day and then Negative gamma would would indicate the positive that market makers trading with price So as price moves up market makers are buying and his price moves down Market makers are selling and this would point to a higher volatility more of a trend day market Market continuing continuing to move and in one direction Now this morning report also includes key gamma levels Like the put wall call wall volatility trigger and The zero gamma level And I also look at high liquidity levels. This is not in the spot gamma report, but I look at the high liquidity levels before the market opens. So I in the Bookmap chart I will Kind of compress it so I can see all the liquidity Above and below price for ES and then Q and that may be an indication of which prey Which way price is going to move? So if there's a lot of liquidity stacked up above price in An ES for example Considering that I think price seeks liquidity that may be an indication that Price is going to move up Toward those levels and vice versa if there's a lot of liquidity pre-market stacked down below ES And then from spot gamma, I also look at the spx and qq Vanna models And I'll talk more about this when we when I actually look at a Vanna model But this shows how market maker delta exposure may shift as price and iv implied volatility move up and down And then finally I look at the spot gamma equity hub for spying qqq And the metrics that I look at there Look for there are the key gamma strike and the hedge wall And these are strikes of I'll talk about Talk about this more later, but of gamma concentration and You know levels of of interest So that's the that's my thesis. That's how I develop my thesis for the day And the next is the the trend which way is price going and this is pretty straightforward You know, everybody Can do this look at candlestick charts highs and lows The V WAP The candlestick chart with moving averages So here i'm actually looking at A candlestick chart with j lines. That's the I I do use those and found find those helpful So that's the red and the green moving averages and then the the 9 EMA 9 period Expand exponential moving average That's the yellow line and then the blue dotted line is V WAP. So that's how I have my Candlestick chart set up and then the The next item is target. Where is price going to me? This is very important And again the price could be going to a liquidity level And that applies for for ES for both ES and spy and for NQ Both NQ itself as well as the cues And then key gamma levels For ES that would be an spx or spy And For NQ that would primarily be the cues And then finally the round number levels Uh for ES that's going to be ES and spy And for NQ that's going to be NQ as well as the cues and Now I really want to stress here that the These round number levels and the ETFs are very important to watch. I think it's uh You know key to watch especially for NQ key to watch QQQ Um Both the liquidity and the uh round number levels So then finally uh finally the trigger when to uh when to enter a trade and uh I kind of look at uh Look at price action in terms of reversals and pull backs and trend breaks And then to enter a trade i'm Uh pretty much always looking for a confluence of signals And I'll show that in uh some of my examples So i'm looking at uh the book map chart. I'm looking at the volume dots Stop and iceberg orders absorption uh liquidity imbalances And shifts and order flow and that would be the cumulative volume delta As well as the hedging flow and that's the uh that's shown with the Hero indicator and i'll talk more about that as well So in this little little screenshot here This is actually showing a reversal with a couple of Entries that the first entry would be uh, so I I showed that The red line there showing the trend break And the first entry would be kind of the first shallow pullback after the After the reversal Seeing how the order flow has shifted from The red dots which are showing the Cell market orders shifting over to green Green dots bullish or by market orders and then a couple of additional entries pullback entries again showing when order flow is shifting from Bullish or bearish to bullish And uh, you know as far as reading order flow again, I highly recommend watching Watching the daily webinars bruce Covers reading order flow And it's you know, I watch those every day either During the day or watch the recordings at night Now one thing to know and I especially for enqueue I typically prefer a stop entry or I use a stop entry quite a bit I'm not trying to Buy the bottom tick or sell the top tick. I I find that stop entries are Are really helpful So at this point, I want to concentrate on enqueue and go through Go through two days with with three total examples bruce are any questions at this point? No, not yet people are traders, please get your Questions in for for dug. He's going through a lot of stuff and very specific for his setups, etc A lot of really good stuff in here And then David Blake is obviously very supportive here for you and as Said you're very very kind for mentioning Him and other traders in the discord room Well, they they've been a great help to me and Really helped make that chat room a You know a great great place for for learning and And then talking about trading All right, so agreed. I think we do have Michael Michael here is a requesting. Maybe uh, uh, you can reach out to dug Later by requesting slides from you if you can get get the slides from you That's up to you well, I Bruce has the link to the article this presentation is based on an article that I wrote for spot gamma so it's the And I believe those are available to the public So everything that is in this presentation or most of it Should be in that article Yeah, so it's in the the spot gamma blog And that link it Michael is in the chat there so you should be able to click right on it and go right to it Okay so For my first example again, I'm going to focus on uh, in queue for the for these examples and the rest of the presentation And uh, you know as I mentioned I First look at the spot gamma am report and From there, uh, I get the gamma notional And the volatility volatility trigger and note this is for the cues qqq So this is the the background information that I'm Gathering when I plan to trade in queue for the day So I'm looking at gamma notional the volatility trigger And the volatility volatility trigger is a uh another proprietary indicator showing where the market makers may shift from positive to negative gamma So above if price is trading above this volatility trigger Then that would indicate positive gamma and again positive gamma would be a More of a lower volatility mean reverting range range type day And below the volatility trigger would indicate negative gamma Which would be indicate higher volatility Wider trading range potentially a A trend day I also look at the the hedge wall and the key gamma strike these These uh levels come from the Equity hub and this screenshot is something else that comes from the equity hub And I I look at these primarily as an indication of rising and following senate far falling sentiment. So if the Key gamma strike in the hedge wall are Higher Then um then the previous day I indicate that This indicates to me kind of a bullish sentiment. So In this example here, we see that gamma notional is positive and um Also the hedge wall and the gamma strike have both risen from the prior day So that's the uh, you know the first First information That I would first set of information that I would gather for the day The next thing I look at is the Vanna model And uh, this may take a while to understand I'll go through it briefly but Again, I would Urging the one who's interested to Take a look at the spot gamma youtube channel that there is a Video specifically on the Vanna model. So just in a nutshell Vanna's Indicates the rate at which the delta and vega of an options contract will change as price and volatility of the underlying change And in my presentation, I'm focusing more on how I use this so To me the Vanna model shows how the market maker delta exposure May shift as price and implied volatility move up and down and The market the slope of the lines Uh indicates how the market makers will need to hedge so Keep in mind that that market makers want to remain delta neutral. So is The options order flow shifts from Bearish the bullish, you know, whatever they need to buy yourself futures In this case this Vanna model For cues the cues is uh, I interpret is fairly neutral so You know, it looks like they're made Market makers may need to sell futures As price moves up or down, but not Not significantly So again, this is uh for the cues, especially this is uh, which which are Typically put dominated So this is this is pretty neutral So based on this information from the Uh from the spot gamma Uh warning report from From the equity hub and and the Vanna model My thesis for the day was first Uh anticipated volatility Uh would be lower. That's based on the positive gamma notional and the neutral Vanna model The trading also anticipated the trading range would be narrow Uh based on again based on the positive gamma notional And the neutral Vanna model also my directional bias was fairly neutral mild to mildly bullish and that would be Based on the rising key gamma strike and hedge wall so, uh overall I was looking for a range day and Looking for long and short entries So Here's the here's my first example for the day And this is a long setup and And I'll go through this sequence any of you who've See my charts know that I like to put in a numbered sequence and again, I'm looking for a Uh Confluence of signals When I uh When I'm looking to enter a trade so And also, uh, what we'll see as we go through these examples is a A patterns that repeat over and over again and uh, they pretty much all start with a stop run Uh stops into a certain level So in this case, uh The reversal starts with a stop run Into qqq in this case, it's uh midpoint 367 50 And we see this In the next slide showing qqq here Uh price of reversing just Uh just below 367 50 So, uh, you know, that's the first signal that that price may Reverse The next thing I'm looking at is number two the liquidity bid and balance And that's uh, I'm showing that with the black line in the sub chart You know that means the uh Yeah more You know just to Again a bid and balance The next is Three the market maker hedging flow Shifts from neutral to bullish That's shown by the spot gamma hero cumulative indicator and hero is the Shows the hedging impact of real-time options And uh for anybody who wants to know more about that I Brent did a uh presentation On monday focusing on hero Um Then at the same time the order flow Shown by the commu uh number four show by the cumulative volume delta the cvd Is rising also so the hero is the green line in the sub chart And uh cvd is the pink and dark blue line And um The next number five The aggressive buyer aggressive buyers with their um By market orders start to move price higher And again, this is a pretty typical pattern of You know notice right at the first number five there the order flow the the volume dots shifting uh from Red to green Pretty abruptly So that's the uh, that's the first reversal um And then that that repeats several times for several Pullback entries as price makes it way it makes its way up to the target At uh, and I in this example, I only noted one target at the spot gamma l1 level, but um There was uh You know targets would have been uh another target would have been the liquidity at uh 15,100 Yeah, there's not a target there on qqq. So uh the two primary targets uh 15,100 liquidity and then the uh actually the the liquidity at uh 15,120 as well as the spot gamma level at uh l1 level Uh great set up a dug. I mean I mean how many more confluences do you need here? You know You've covered everything here um Yeah, it's uh, yeah, just uh, you know, what more do you need to be convinced here? Basically I you know, I'll talk about this more later, but I I started making these charts for myself So taking screenshots and marking them up But you would be surprised if you take a screenshot And then at the end of the day Look at it closely. You would be surprised at all you see And mark it up and you know if it's if you think it would be helpful to others posted in chat and twitter But you know again, I started doing this for myself and uh You by doing this you start to recognize these patterns and uh, you're It makes them your ability it helps your ability to see them in real time Yeah, I can't agree more. Um, you know that uh, I've taken the same path there. Uh, it's been so helpful And you know and along the way you're you're helping people, which is nice So, um, here's the next example now. Remember I was looking for a A lower volatility day More of a range day Or a mean reverting day. So looking for long and short entries so here's a short entry From the same day And uh, you know, again, you'll start to notice repeating patterns. So it starts with a stop run into um The cues level 369 as well as in cue 15,140 liquidity We'll take a quick look at the cues um And you see that price price moves up just above the 369 level so that's the That's the first First step in the sequence again the buy stops run and uh Note here. I'm showing this with the on chart indicator and that's the The uh tags with the green dots And I will note that since Since I uh did these charts I have started looking at uh Stops and icebergs in some the some accumulation mode In the sub chart and it's really helpful to see how stops are really driving Price and in cue so for here. I'm just showing stops and icebergs with the On chart indicator So the second item is both absorption and sell icebergs executing So absorption i'm uh is shown with the pink squares And they typically are appearing on the Green dot showing that sellers are absorb absorbing the buyers and Then the icebergs are shown with the Icons with the e indicating that the icebergs were executed So those are larger players Executing their their hidden iceberg seller orders Then uh note in the sub chart there items three and four that both the hedging flow market maker hedging flow shown by the hero indicator And the order flow shown by the cvd So that's the green line and the blue line or are shifting down shifting bearish Then there's the trend break Shown number five there and aggressive sellers with their sell market orders moving price lower And that's the showing the first entry after the reversal as well as a couple of pullback entries and there were you know, if you zoom in there were certainly more pullback entries The number of targets here the spot gamma levels And in queue the round number 15,100 and then qqq 368 um We see on the the second chart of qqq here. So You know, you can see how important these round number levels are in the cues price going from 369 down to 368 So so dug are you looking at I mean, um, uh for your targets, um Are you're looking at you're looking at multiple uh confluences as well? I mean, yeah, that's just that's right a bunch of them Yeah, um, but I just see that that number six is there above where the cues actually were, um They were at at 368. They're they're down at that kind of 1509 250 Um, I kind of on the right edge of your chart there Right so around 1115 or so right, so um You know, I guess the Both those round numbers could act as targets. So as it turns out, I think 368 at least for this trade was the uh, was the final target and that's That was a little bit below 15,100 right I think that's often the case that the the The cues the round numbers and the cues are more important Than the round numbers in in in cue I you know, I would look at those first so You know, it looks like price, you know, and of course in cue being a big index is going to It often overshoot A little bit, but uh, you know here it looks like At least again for this trade that 368 was the the final target Yeah, yeah, no really really nice and uh, just to note that The uh ratio between In cue and the cues is about 41 And it it varies a little bit from day to day Uh, and I I normally calculated every day especially after the The contract rollover until it kind of finally settles on a on a A number that I and I just keep those levels on the chart, but I'm at the point where I'm still in it adjusting it a little bit and Yesterday, for example, that number was about 41.03 and when you're talking about a 15,000 point index that 0.03 does make a little bit of difference if you're trying to be precise Interesting. Yeah So how do you derive that number? Is it just a 368 divided by 15? Yeah, so what I do is As the day starts I look at a one minute candlestick chart For in cue and the cues And I will take a couple of high and low points On that chart, you know, two or three points high and low points and Calculate the ratio and then I'll take the average So it takes a little bit of hand work, you know, it takes a minute or two, but You know once I have that number established then I will and I keep these these numbers in a A notes column on my chart and so the These numbers and I have colors that I use for For different items. So I I keep The cues in blue, you know for whatever reason so And I may You know based on the number for the day I may move these up or down a little bit and then I also like to Just have a note at the The in cue round number levels just as a you know quick visual reference And then I and then before the market opens I draw these lines in every day just to have another visual reference So that's that's how I set up my chart and then For those who may not be familiar with spot gamma part of the subscription is the Cloud notes links and so the levels in this this column the spot sg cloud notes Are updated daily Automatically and the numbers shown there are for indx and there's usually You know in this case it looks like about a 10 point difference between in cue and indx okay So We have a slew of questions in here for you And I thought maybe we'd get to them before you get to your next example. Okay. All right. So joe's asking asking actually on the first example, I believe What actually happens at the options position at the target level Which was an l level Oh level one there, yeah So joe, I don't know exactly what you mean. How do you decide? Oh, okay. That's another question. Never mind What exactly do you mean? Well, that's a that level is a What spot gamma calls a combo level? So You know and I again refer you to spot gamma for more information, but they're taking Gamma levels in indx as well as qqq And coming up with a combo level that and this is just an area of Of gamma concentration and it Can act as support resistance and a target But it's just a level of gamma concentration in the in the underlying etf and indx Okay, and then joe is also asking how do you decide what product to trade for the day? Um That's that's a good question. I Uh, I prefer there advance. I trade es or in in q and Primarily and I There are advantages and disadvantages to each And I found that by keeping stats Over time, I have a better record within q Uh, even though it it moves around more and uh I I just like the follow-through and in q Uh, so recently I've really been mostly trading uh in q Uh, the advantage of es is that it's a little bit slower moving and uh There's also a lot of information uh In the order flow and from spot gamma about es but the uh Sometimes the rotations in es can be pretty painful So again, I I prefer to trade in q and if it uh You know, if I just like what I see in the pre market or uh, based on what I see in the The morning report spot gamma morning report Uh, let's say that the um The vana model for uh spx is neutral looking looking for a narrow range mean reverting and the Vana model uh for q q q is showing a Significant skew indicating more of a trend day and a higher volatility wider wider trading range I would uh Want to trade in q for that day? Okay, so um, that's how I decide Okay, uh That's a very good answer there. Um, the um, uh, spriata slough is actually asking about uh, um You know, where do you take your entries and exits now? I know you've marked that up I think what he's getting to though is um, perhaps like where are you? um, executing uh Your trades because you can execute in book map, but it looks like you're executing uh from uh, you know something else using book map for data visualization Right. I actually uh, and I'll talk about this at the end my uh futures broker is trade of eight uh, so I actually look at the um trade I actually trade from the trade of eight dome um And look at while looking at the book map chart now there is a I I think a beta version of a uh, uh trade of eight connection in In book map, but it's as far as I know it's not fully functional um and I One of the reasons I I I like I'm just used to trading the uh with the trade of eight dome Uh, it has very sophisticated brackets, which I take advantage of Uh allowing me to set profit targets at different levels and uh, it has an auto breakeven feature and So I use trade of eight, um But I uh for actual placing the trades, but I use book map for my trading decisions Okay, um Then uh, let's see. There's a few other questions. I guess we'll get to um a bit later I just want to mention here regarding some of the spot gamma um Information and options and information here Uh, many of the things that dug is is talking about can be found from the spot gamma website From the article as well that's uh in the chat there. Uh, you'll see it and then I also just pasted in here um The pro trader webinar um playlist uh from our book map youtube channel You can go back and watch some of those spot gamma presentations and you You know brent was just presenting on on monday. So go back and watch that one. So there's a a host of different Uh areas where you can find this information Okay, and I will add that I have watched all of those videos probably more than once and uh So, you know, my intent here is to show the more practical side. So I'm showing how I actually use this information to to uh To form a thesis for the day as well as to uh place Place trades Right, right Okay, uh, I think some of the other questions we can get to after your next example Okay, so while we're actually on this first example, I do want to uh point out one thing notice here This item number six the market make or hedging flow Shifting from bullish to bearish with these two two big drops this uh 5k Triangle which is uh Part of hero, uh showing a um Showing uh bearish market maker hedging activity based on options trades and then this 3k triangle here and um And note note the time here 954 is um When this chart ends and then we'll go to the second chart pick up, uh Oh about 1030 here and see that uh then You know after that shift in the uh hedging flow I'm I'm looking for a uh a bearish trade which I show on this example Interesting because uh right at that level which you have in the the white dotted line is the combo level as well Right, so uh all of those can confluence Uh all that confluence together there Right, so yeah this This starts uh, yeah, just a little bit of the bearish trade starts a little bit above this level So, you know in this case it looks like uh hero is kind of uh The down move in hero is kind of preceding the uh the down move and uh in queue So, you know again just to summarize this this first first trade example My thesis for the day was looking for a lower volatility More narrow trading range Mean reverting with a slightly bullish Outlook and then this is how the day played out So the entire uh for this entire day that was about a The point range was about 70 points and in queue Up and down with a especially in the morning with the You know slightly bullish or you know bullish end of the day So the uh the day played out pretty much is the uh The thesis kind of predicted And one other thing to note here is the the green line on the sub chart Um As well as the the blue line the uh cvd were both kind of bearish for the day and that That was kind of a forecast or a tell for the next couple of days So this was august 9th And then uh, I didn't include august 10th here. I think you can If you want look back in your charts and see that was actually a bearish day Um As this day was as well. Uh, so two days later august 11th Again starting with the Starting with the the metrics for the cues From the airm report and uh note here the shift in the metrics. So now Gamma notional Is negative Of the volatility trigger has dropped to 366 And the hedge wall and key gamma strike Strikes have both dropped down to 368 From 370 the prior day Now this is great dug. I mean the way that you've got like these um, um, your high is Unique uh Instead of looking at volume profile or or you know, um, some higher time frame candlesticks. You're actually looking at the the options Um, uh information and data to give you your higher time frame outlook for the day Well, as I I guess as a An options trader and I I still trade options Um, this is what makes sense to me um The relationship between um The uh options trading and uh the futures so, um You know, again, I I took information from Uh, all of those sources and developed Uh, a system that made sense to me and this is this is what this is what, uh, Resonates with me So not to discount any other way of looking at the market there A number of very experienced successful traders Um In the discord chat room that use volume profile very successfully Uh, again, this is just another way of looking at the market that that makes sense to me and helps me develop a Uh, again a thesis for the day and uh, develop Targets and helps me to execute trades So yeah It's unique. I mean like uh, we we don't see I mean we haven't really even had this kind of information available to us Uh, until spot gamma came along Right that you know Like I said Brent has introduced Uh, I think to retail traders a whole new way of looking at uh price behavior um in the uh Futures based on market maker hedging flow Yeah, I agree. I I think I think it's fascinating Yeah, and uh, yeah, I mean, um, so if anyone's interested in that there's just tons of resources out there. Uh, like I said, I Just click on Doug's article and start there so, uh again note the uh The change in the the metrics in the previous slide and also the change in the the Vanna model Now Brent actually calls this a right side skew um where the the lines have shifted so that the uh Lines are now moving up Uh to the on the left side showing that uh as price moves down uh The market makers hedging uh delta exposure is going to increase more rapidly Than we saw on the first Vanna model. So that means they will need to um Sell in queue more aggressively as price moves down Uh, now this doesn't necessarily predict direction. It just is showing that um Market makers would need to really trade more With price rather than against it and it could work conversely here that um market makers need may need to buy futures as uh QQQ price moves up um so, uh Then my thesis for this day First anticipated volatility, I'm looking for a higher volatility. That's based on the negative gamma notional And the skewed Vanna model also our wider trading range again based on the negative gamma notional and the skewed Vanna model and Based on the falling uh Levels the key gamma strike the volatility trigger and the hedge wall My directional bias was mildly barriers. So overall, I was looking for a trend day and primarily uh short entries Here's the first example and uh One thing to note. I I like to use the hero indicator to confirm my thesis So my thesis was that uh that market makers would be um Would be selling As price moved down and that's what what hero is showing there. So that's a good Good confirmation of the thesis. So Uh again going through this step by step um The first is uh by stops In this case into the VWAP, which is the uh Which is the light blue line here And then the uh point of control, which is the the purple line And it's just just below uh 368 in the queues and uh 15,100 in NQ And the second item is the sellers absorbing the buyers. So uh You see the the pink squares on the the green dots Then the trend break And uh, you know again down on the sub chart the um Hedging flow market maker hedging flow and the uh CVD shifting bearish Number six is showing the aggressive sellers starting to move price lower with their, uh Sell market orders so that again the shift from Green dots to red dots And that that's the first reversal entry And then there are several other Pullback entries as well And uh, you know, I'm kind of zoomed out here as you uh, you know, if you zoom in closer, I'm sure there were Uh a lot more uh entry levels And then finally a multitude of targets here At uh QQQ levels spot gamma levels and uh 15,000 in NQ and here is that what it looked like in um in the queues and You can see that the liquidity at uh 365 was the primary target and uh Once I see this in QQQ It's a if price is heading down. It's a pretty good bet. That's where it's going At the this high liquidity level at a round number in the queues um It's you know, almost like if they Uh, they put the liquidity and then then price will seek that so a question, um, uh On a few from a few different people, um mostly uh, daniel though here on the uh hero Uh in the relationship with the cumulative volume delta Uh and how you look at that or When they're trend they seem to trend together for these really nice, um setups What do you do when they do not trend together? Well, that's a good question. So first of all, um When they're moving in the same direction that gives me uh, uh, I guess kind of a warm and fuzzy feeling about, uh Trading in that direction. That's a very good confirmation um recently, uh Hero has been a little bit more difficult to interpret And uh a brint, uh, again brint on monday Talked about that in his presentation. He covered hero quite a bit um In that case, I'm a little bit more if if they're not going in the same direction um I'm a little bit more tentative about Which way to trade I I I I guess I may wait for more confirmation or look at other things and uh something else that I mentioned is I have, uh Changed the settings for my sub chart here. I'm not showing stops and icebergs Uh in the sub chart, but I have changed so I am showing that now In the sum accumulation mode and uh starting to see very good um correlation between stops and um And price action in nq especially So, um Again, what do you mean by that? Well I I I I can't I don't have it up now, but take a look at some of my um most recent examples from this week in Uh in q on twitter and in book map discord chat room. So, um You know, for example, uh here um You can look at, um sell stops What so buy stops would be the indication when they're buy a buy stop run into a level would be um, and then you you know I I wouldn't make a trade just based on that, but you you know, you certainly see all the Uh pieces in place for a reversal here um You know all the confluences that I've talked about and um Then you can see that uh Now there are very large stop orders Helping to drive price down and those are shown by the uh the red dots below. So um Yeah, 636 66 um You know these red dots showing, uh Sell stops helping to fuel the price lower Helping to fuel the move lower And that's a a little bit easier to see with the uh the stops and the sub chart Understood understood Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely So, you know, I'm just that's something that I've just noticed by observation Uh, but it it seems to be pretty consistent. It's something worth looking at Okay, uh, I think we're all caught up on the presentation or the uh questions here. Um Uh, yes fiatislaw. I've had just one more here about um Uh, if you have a thesis for the day, it isn't working. Um Then then what what do you do?  I think the uh, uh, you know as far as the um Um, the first two items that I look for in my thesis the anticipated volatility And the trading range generally hold true to uh uh To what I think and um, but again, I you know at the end of the day, I'm going to trade trade to what I see So I'm I'm looking at uh, you know that point looking at price action highs and lows Which way is price going And uh, where's it going? And that's the You know, those are the kind of the final Um You know final things and in placing a trade and most important Again the trend and the target Uh understood understood so I mean if I can kind of like um in a in a nutshell just maybe this is Would you agree? That your trading strategy is this overall, you know higher time frame outlook for the day based on these options metrics various options metrics um, and then um Waiting for some of that to start to unfold in the order flow In book map and then looking at confluences to support that order flow Yeah, that's that's a very good summary. Yes Yeah, I mean because you've gone through a lot of things and there's a lot of stuff going on here, uh, but uh kind of overall, you know Look at it like uh, just to try to simplify and boil that down Because it's it's brilliant. I mean you you really have a nice nice setup here Thanks. Yeah, I've Again, I've taken what I've learned from from book map spot gamma J trader scott and the chat room and trying to put it all together Uh in a system that makes sense to me And and this is this is what I've come up with All right, um Let's see. Do you have another example or uh should well, this is let me I just finish up with this example This is the last one. So okay This is how the day played out this august 11th and uh remember that my thesis for the day was looking for a wider trading range Higher volatility and uh potentially a trend day with a bearish outlook and that's pretty much what played out You know you see in the morning session was a trend day all the way down to that Look liquidity target at uh 365 in the cues And that's where that's where price reversed and moved a little bit higher in the afternoon And you know, that's also confirmed by both the uh hero indicator again the green line in the sub chart as well as the CBD the blue and pink line in the in the sub chart So the you know, this is another day where the uh, where the uh price action pretty much played out as um as expected from the thesis and uh again confirmed by hero and cvd Yeah, yeah, so do you do you find that? uh Do you find yourself taking trades like maybe the the overall thesis is working out the order flow Is is um working out, but you don't have multiple confluences Will you still take the trade or like you just maybe smaller position sizing or anything like that? You know, I I don't trade all day long and I found what worked best for me is to um Take what j trader calls a plus setups So the more confluence is the better And I I keep track of all my trades and I Track all of the Confluences or confirmations for a trade so I have uh And I use software that I you can track all this I don't know for me the more confluences or confirmations the better And I you know my goal Is to take You know just a handful of very high quality trades per day, so You know, I you know, it's hard to make a judgment call, but I would say you know the more confluences the more Signals that I have the better and Yeah, make make make sense. Yeah, I just have better results if I uh, if I take a few a plus Set ups every day All right. Yeah, I think we're caught up on the questions. Okay All right, so just to wrap it up first. I want to go over the tools that I use and First is of course Bookmap and I have a global plus subscription There are a couple of advantages to that and I I would say number one is access to the daily webinars You know again, that's with bruce reading order flow as well as J trader and scott trading on Wednesday and thursday There's also with the ability to trade from the platform. So when I trade stocks, I actually Do trade from from book map with my trade station account Um, and then there's the absorption indicator also included with global plus which I I do use and utilize Uh, also use the mbo bundle Uh, that includes the stop and iceberg trackers both the uh on chart and sub chart as well as the liquidity tracker pro And then there's spot gamma Uh, you have a pro subscription So that includes, um The the levels that are included in the reports as well as the uh cloud notes Um And the morning and afternoon reports and all the information on the website As well as equity hub and I've just barely touched that but that's uh I guess a whole nother thing on spot gamma all a few trade stocks. It's very helpful And then also the hero indicator Um, again showing the hedging impact of real-time options, which helps me to Uh, confirm my thesis for the day and um You know, see how the market makers are are hedging. Uh See how the market maker hedging activity is going Um, and as I mentioned I use trade of eight, uh for my futures trading platform Uh, I also use thinkorswim Primarily for real-time options data so I can um, you know kind of confirm what I'm seeing with With hero for example, so I can look at thinkorswim and see How traders are trading calls and puts and whether they're buying Or selling calls and puts and that kind of helps to uh inform my decisions sometimes Then finally I use rhythmic data for futures and that includes the mbo market buy order data which uh, are Which book map uses for the Stops and iceberg tracker stop and iceberg trackers And then finally dxv data for stocks And even if you don't trade stocks You know, I think I've shown how important it is. It's certainly important to me To watch The cues for trading in queue and watching spy for Uh for trading es And then finally, um some of my takeaways um First of all take advantage of the educational resources that That book map offers. It's just uh incredible. I haven't seen anything like like this within any other software Uh, you know again, there's the educational videos the daily webinars the youtube channel Uh the extensive knowledge base Um the discord chat room um All are great and I've taken advantage of that learn from that And uh develop the a system that makes sense to me, which is my second takeaway So You know, I I want to know why and You know what what I think is driving the market and and uh Again, I think a good bit of it is the market maker hedging flow And options trading That's driving the market. So this is what what makes sense to me Also Put in the time to study watch watch book map every day Watch order flow study Take a markup screenshots. Uh, it's been an invaluable exercise for me To study these charts Learn the patterns and then you can recognize them then in real time After looking at all these charts plus it, uh, you know, I have a great Catalog of setups and you know, I post these in In the chat room and on twitter And uh, you know it helped other people as well And then finally, um, again when you're trading in queue, uh, watch the queues You know, I I use, uh Information about qqq for planning, uh, as well as, uh Executing trades so And then spy Is still important with when trading es maybe not quite as important as qqq is to Thank you As far as trading but as as far as preparation is very important, uh, the gamma notional And spy is often often higher. Uh, there's more More activity in um and spy than spx so That's uh, that's pretty much it Bruce any any final questions any final thoughts? Uh, let's see. Um, not really. We went through all the questions. I mean one a few things that I have not Mentioned yet. Uh, there's a lot of appreciation coming in here. Doug for your presentation and your setups as well as your work in twitter and the the bookmap discord chat room a lot of a lot of You know appreciation there and Also requests already like a few different requests to have you come back And look at the live market Maybe one of these days It uh It it took a long time. This took a lot of preparation for this presentation So I you know, maybe uh, uh, maybe in Six months or so. I'll I'll I'll be ready again Yeah, yeah, sounds great. I mean, uh, just uh, you know Taking a look at the the live market and uh, you know going through your your um whole process here But applying it to Now that you got we've got this webinar here You know applying it to the live market and see what see what you you you see and and and and think of Regards to your overall thesis and which way the order flow is going and you know again if anybody wants to See more of my my post and setups. Uh, they're all posted on twitter Also again the articles I I've written, uh I don't somewhere between five and ten articles for for spot gamma. I believe they're available to the public Bruce has the link You know, they're all available in the spot gamma blog and they You know, it's like an expanded twitter post where I I go into more detail about My preparation, uh, as well as uh execution for a trade Yeah, yeah, excellent. Um, so, uh, yeah, thank thank you so much, uh, Doug. This was uh, um, really great to see and and also um Uh, we've heard uh from Brent quite a bit But really applying it into book map and the order flow here is Really nice to hear to see you're taking it from that perspective which is You know gaining some traction here with a a tradeable Solution here Yeah, again, I wanted to show more of the practical side of spot gamma how you can Put that all together to develop a thesis and to help you With your trading Yeah, yeah, it's a great resource. So, uh, uh, you know, you've you've created here. Um, so, uh, yeah, thank you very much, Doug And we'll have you back Great. Glad everyone enjoyed it Okay, all right. Uh, have a great, uh, this is the end of the pro trader webinar for, uh, q3 Uh, we'll do it again in q4 and get another lineup for you guys, uh, and and take it from there So, um, thanks again, Doug and uh, we will Uh, uh, do it again Okay, great Okay. All right. Bye. Bye


From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2020 virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2020 virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We are theCUBE virtual. Normally we're in person this year with the pandemic. We have to do the remote interviews and wish we could be there. But it's going to be a great conference, a lot of learning, a lot of great conversations, a lot of great community, a lot of great companies who are riding the CloudNative wave and doing it right. One company, pleased to have the GM here on from Commvault Ventures, Metallic I.O., Menojner, GM, Metallic.io, Commvault Ventures. Is it a spin out? No, it's great to see you. First of all, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. Thank you, thank you. Good to be here. Good to be back with you guys. So you're a CUBE alumni, I've been on many times. You're now heading up this venture, Metallic I.O., which is doing extremely well. Good case of great timing and good, good savvy business planning and strategic vision and execution. But I want to just kind of get something straight real quick. Is it a spin out of Commvault? Is it a separate company? What's the relationship with Metallic I.O. and Commvault? Yeah, so it's set up as a complete startup. It's incubated and fully owned by Commvault. But we have our full company, just like running my separate startup, Metallic is set up as a startup. And it's some people joke, right? It's like one of those millennial kids. I get to have a deep pocketed parent Commvault and the access to a lot of IP and great customers at the same time, be a startup and drive fast in this cloud native SaaS world. We also have the Microsoft deep partnership. So that's the other angle here with Metallic having a deep strategic partnership with Microsoft. You know, the theme this year and all the shows, especially KubeCon in particular, is modern application with speed, speed and relevance, right? That's critical. Congratulations. Good to have a boss Sanjay over there looking over your shoulder, but you got freedom. You're running hard as a startup and you got a good track record. Take me through real quick, give a quick business update before we get into some of the container conversations.  Now cloud endpoint protection.  Everyone's at home. Everyone's at the edge, edge point protection. I mean, tell us, give us a quick update. Absolutely. You know, a year plus since we launched it, I think initially the company was thinking Metallic would be a really good fit for the mid-market. And maybe the low-end enterprise was always built to be enterprise grade.  We decided to make our endpoint offer available free for our customers jointly with Microsoft. And it was not mid-market.  We had the biggest of the big. Several of them have now become, you know, customers of our paying customers of us. One of the world's largest insurance company came in that way and signed up for all their users to end up being paying customers. And you think about like protecting endpoints, right? That's, you know, all the bad things kind of happened in drove. So we have COVID happening, people going remote and ransomware and cyber attacks taking off 400% as the FBI saying. And that kind of becomes a very high risk point. So to be able to have not just data protection but ransomware detection on those edge devices. I think companies are really starting to see the value of having that kind of a, you know, data protection as a service model. I know, well congratulations on the timing on that. I'll say, you know, there's no such thing as luck as preparation meets opportunity as the expression goes. But I get why it makes sense with the pandemic, but can you explain why cloud-based container protections good for customers beyond the obvious you just mentioned, what else is there? What are some of the downstream benefits as people come out of COVID? You know, the things that people are accelerating, right? It's, okay, we've got to take care of the basics. We talked about endpoint, then it's cloud adoption. Productivity suites like O365 with teams, you know, took off as you were talking about Zoom and how do you protect that? You know, how do you protect all that data being created now in a platform that you were not protecting? So that was kind of that next immediate wave. And now what we're seeing is the hybrid cloud adoption is taking off. Now containers in my mind are intricately linked with in this hybrid cloud journey, right? These are the apps that people build. This is your sensitive, most important IP and, you know, as enterprises adopt containers, it's one of the paths to the cloud. And it is really the most recommended path is you could take microservices, you re-platform, re-architect, use containers to deliver microservices. And these are enterprise applications. So they have state. And so with stateful applications, you know, how do you make sure that you have a cloud native data protection available for them? The second issue is the developers who are adopting and deploying containers in production, they don't want to be going out deploying software to protect, you know, these things. They want a, I just want an API, a service call in the cloud. And they should do what I, you know, I do like any other cloud native service. So, you know, cloud native protection that we're delivering for containers with our announcement today from Metallic is huge in that it behaves like a native cloud service, just like, you know, a developer wants. An API call with a cloud target, no setup, nothing, and it's up and running. Yeah, I mean, cloud native is clear this year at KubeCon, this is the tipping point of, you know, full mainstream adoption of Kubernetes and microservices. So that means IT is going to be impacted, right? So that means, you know, we were all early adopters, let's face it, we're at a point now where it's gone beyond test and dev and cluster testing. You know, Kubernetes has now reached a point where it's penetrating and proliferating rapidly. So I got to ask you the announcements about Metallic for Kubernetes as part of the broader portfolio expansion. Explain how that fits in, because you mentioned hybrid cloud, you got backup as a service, you got recovery. I mean, the world's changed. Who would have thought everyone's going to be working at home? How do you back that up? That's service disruption. So, you know, non-disruptive operations has always been kind of a cliche, but now you've got a complicated operation. How does the Kubernetes fit into the broader portfolio? Absolutely. So it is part of a three new announcements. The new solutions we're announcing today, all connected to this hybrid journey.  So our offerings are, you know, there's a Metallic for virtual machines and Kubernetes as a service. We've got Metallic for database delivered as a service and Metallic for unstructured data, file and object. And all of those are key parts of a, you know, cloud-native stack.  And we had to protect all those patterns in different ways. At the same time, virtual machines are not going away. They're going to be there. And, you know, a lot of people say that container is a new virtual machine. So what we have done is we have introduced a VM and Kubernetes module, but anyone who buys that gets container protection for free. So anyone who buys that for the next six months, for the lifetime of the subscription, they get unlimited Kubernetes backup as a service for free. And the reason we're doing that is just, we want to make sure, especially our early adopters are taking full advantage and they're not compromising on the data protection for this cloud-native application as they think through this transition. You know, that's a good business model also. I mean, you're in the cloud, right? So this is leverage. You got some leverage there. It's the new freemium. We'll give you a full protection. You know, what's the gimmick here? There's no trick. You get it for free. It's good because you're going to make money on other areas. Again, this is the whole benefit of the new kind of freemium SaaS. You're in an enterprise model. So yeah, you take care of people. You make it up on the critical infrastructure. I get that. Is that kind of how it's working? This is exactly what we're thinking. Look today, I saw some stats out there. 75% of the people who are adopting containers are not yet thinking about data protection for containers has to be container optimized. You can't just say, okay, the data is in a VM. I'll just do a snapshot and it'll be fine. Now, what about all of the container-specific namespaces, tags, the config maps, pod? You cannot recover this cluster if you don't have a real container-native solution. And so that, you know, part of the pod leadership and education process, we said, let's start by just making it available. Take all the excuses out. And that really, you know, I think over time, our customers are going to really benefit from our approach there. Well, while I got you here, I want to just grab you for a quick definition masterclass. So we see B-A-A-S. Now, if we confuse with SAS or PAAS, platform as a service, B stands for backup as a service. Correct. Everything's as a service these days. That's what cloud's great for. Can you define what that is from, with a cloud standpoint? Because, I mean, backup as a service, it could mean many things, but for, as you guys are doing, because you have success, it's working, what is B-A-A-S as a service? What is backup as a service? What is the definition? Yeah, so backup as a service, in my mind, and some people call it cloud native backup, really includes delivering, you know, turnkey experience, turnkey consumption model. I should be able to go sign up like any other as a service free. Try it. If I like it, immediately do an online experience to, you know, acquire it and be up and running. Our design goal was first backup, even for a complex enterprise workload should be less than 15 minutes from transaction. Today we're able to do it in a matter of minutes all the way from acquisition to being up and running. So I would say that's part of the definition. Part of the definition is never having to maintain your backup software ever. That's not your responsibility. We take care of that. It's always updated. We're using the best of cloud capabilities to do SRE ops and maintain that in a very scalable 24 seven way security of the service, you know, between us and all the security capabilities we provide ransomware detection and all that and building on top of Azure's foundation of 3,500 security engineers, you know, that's the key component. You should not have to worry. This is your data. You're most critical. The last part is cloud adoption is complicated enough for customers. They shouldn't have to worry about things like egress costs and, you know, am I going to get nickel and dime for the service overages? And so just price transparency is a big part that we have focused on. So, you know, our customers are double 365. They don't have to ever pay for any storage, unlimited storage, no egress costs, and the whole thing is a turnkey service. So that's the kind, in my mind, that's backup as a service. Yeah, and pay as you go is classic. And I love the hidden cost thing.  What's driving the demand besides COVID? What are some of the architectural shifts that you're seeing? And does it have the same characteristics in all geographies? Because remember, you're talking cloud, you're talking regions, right? So, you know, what's the driving the demand besides COVID and what's the regional impact around the world? No, we're seeing a global impact.  And in the last six months, we have now in 14 countries around the globe. And that just maps to the interest. You know, we're in Australia, New Zealand. We just launched 10 European countries last month in the US, Canada, of course. And that global journey is what we're seeing with our customers. So, you know, that the pain points, you know, the COVID crisis, the economic shift that need to be as a service. Those are the things that are really driving. We talked about remote work. We talked about teams adoption, really driving O365.  And so people understand the need for data protection there. Hybrid IT containers, rapid cloud adoption. Probably the biggest one is ransomware. You know, we launched this metallic cloud story service that is an air gap ransomware cloud stories that can connect to any Commonwealth customer. They don't even have to be a metallic SaaS customer.   Manoj, I got to ask you a personal question. You're the GM, which basically means you're the CEO of the Commonwealth startup, but we'll call you GM. Are you having fun? Well, I'm having a lot of fun. I mean, this is probably the most fun I've had in a long time.   We have a global team. And it's been, it's a challenging year, right? From a human perspective, for all the, you know, all of the folks who are impacted by this and our teams are a part of that journey. And so their personal lives that are difficult, but we're all, you know, working on this very, very interesting. And I think, you know, disruptive but impactful offering that we can see how it touches our customers' walls. And I think that's partly what's kept the team and all of us going. So I have, we're having a lot of fun. While we're fellow travelers, we're not on site anymore. I mean, we did an interview in 2015. You and I were talking with Docker back in 25 years ago. And you're still on point. Now you're on the wave. You got to be mindful of the current situation around you and understand reality. And it's a chance to do things differently from the customer, you know, backwards in, not inside out. So, you know, it's fun to have a new category, but also it's a big wave. You don't want to be, as Pat Gelsinger said, driftwood if you make the wrong move. So, keep plugging, you're on the right track. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, John. Really appreciate the time. Maneuge, Nair, GM of Metallic.io. Check it out. It's a separate company from Commvault, but funded it, doing cloud as a service, back up as a service in the cloud. Very innovative, very smart. Thanks for coming on, Maneuge. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Virtual for KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2020. Thanks for watching.