Welcome to the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee's 34th meeting in 2018. Can I ask everyone to make sure that he says reaching for his mobile phone to make sure that he's done it, which he hadn't? That all your mobile phones are on silent. No apologies have been received. We are going to move on straight on to agenda item 1, which is the South of Scotland Enterprise Bill. This is our third evidence session on this bill with Enterprise and Development Agencies. I'd like to welcome Steve Dunlop, the chief executive of Scottish Enterprise. Douglas Cowan, the director of strengthening communities, Highlands and Islands Enterprise. Chris Brodie, the head of sector development skills and planning skills development Scotland. Malcolm Ruffhead, the chief executive of Visit Scotland. Michael Cross, the director of access skills and outcome agreements. Those of you who have given evidence before will know that you don't need to touch your microphones. They will become live when I bring you in. It's quite a big panel and it's quite a big committee, so it's always a question of trying to manage time. If you see my pen twitching vigorously, you will know that, at that stage, I'm trying to get you to wind up.  Just in the interests of trying to get everyone in. If you want to come in on a particular question, just look at me and maybe committee members may ask you all to comment on it. I'll bring you in if you don't get the chance to come in. If you all look away, the last person to look away is the one who will answer it first. I hope that that sort of sets the ground rules. The first question will be from John Finnie. Good morning, panel. You may have had a look at the previous evidence. There's a little passage here that I would like to start off by mentioning. I'll show me the evidence from last time. It was felt, especially among the third sector witnesses, that support for social enterprise has been minimal up till now. The view was expressed that, because many of the enterprises in the south are small, often employing fewer than five people, the Scottish enterprise is not interested in supporting them. There was also a belief that Scottish enterprise, as well as other central-based organisations, do not have a grip or understanding of rural issues. With enterprise and skills review, you spoke about the area having distinct economic needs. Can the panel tell me their views on what the major economic and social challenges faced by the south are? Who would like to head off with that? You're all looking away. That was always dangerous. I wasn't paying attention to find out the last person to look. Who would like to start off? Would somebody like to go on? If you're not going to, I'm going to Steve. I've just taken a couple of those points. Social enterprise is certainly interested in social enterprise. We have a dedicated and very capable resource focused on that. We treat social enterprise through the same lens as any business. Therefore, if they are of scale, if they have growth potential, we will support those. I think that there are around 20 or so social enterprises that we account manage at the moment. Around six of those are in the south of Scotland. For us, we would like to see more activity in social enterprise, and anything that we can do to allow them to grow is certainly on our agenda. We don't have anything against social enterprise quite the converse. Equally in our capability, we lead at the moment, we have a resource looking at the rural economy. That unit helps us to gather our statistics and evidence and point us towards our investment in the rural economy. That will be vital to tap into and to grow as the south of Scotland economic partnership grows. It's there. Has it done enough in the past? Has it been a major focus for us? We can argue and talk about that later, but it's certainly there. It's something that we can build on. Chris wants to come in, John. Let's go back on that. We've been doing some work with the south of Scotland partnership to understand the economy of the south of Scotland with partners, including the local authorities. I'll probably just offer a few remarks. The first thing to say is that it's clear that the economy in the south of Scotland is different from the rest of Scotland. It's got lots of jobs and sectors that haven't been growing with the exception of tourism over the past five or six years. It's a pretty low wage economy. It's an economy that's got the highest levels of underutilisation of skills. We think that that points to challenges in terms of job creation in the south. I think that it faces a number of challenges that other rural areas face in terms of a digital infrastructure that isn't what it should be or could be challenges in relation to transport, not just in and out of the region, but critically within and across the region. I think that one of the things that we've found in our conversations with employers and also with college and university students is that transport is a major barrier to accessing jobs and education. The third thing that I can point to, and no doubt we will come on to talk about this, the demographics of the region are really challenging. Working-age populations expected to fall by about 8 per cent, 12,000 people over the next 10 years. Critical and big driver behind that is that too many young people are leaving the region for work and for study. The final thing that I would say is that we've got to be careful not to see the south of Scotland as some kind of homogenous whole. There are huge differences in terms of how those issues play out, whether it's in Dumfries, whether it's in the North Borders, whether it's in Stranraer. A lot of the early work that we've been doing with the partnership is to try and understand those different dynamics and what the agency might do around that. John. Thanks. I wonder the perception then, Mr Dunlop, because you qualified and I wanted to say that that was a view expressed about social enterprise, but it was broader than just that and you qualified it if you said if of scale of growth. Is that in itself a challenge? It's maybe seen that you're dealing with the top more prestigious companies where I'm particularly interested in the social element that the new board will have similar to what High has. Is almost a presentational issue, if Scottish Enterprise failed the south, because that might be a view? We'll take a couple of questions there. I'll come back to how we failed the south, secondly. Our criteria for helping businesses, whether it's social enterprise or any other business, has over the past been in relation to their capability to grow, the size of the company in the first place, is it in the right territory that are priorities for us. That's where our energy and our investment has gone and that's clearly meant that not everyone can get the support that Scottish Enterprise has to offer. That's been true of all of our investment across the patch. I might be talking about going forward a bit later, but we will certainly be looking at how we begin to address the needs of the economy wherever issues are faced and we will do that through different partnering arrangements. I might be developing that point later on, but I would challenge that we've failed the south of Scotland. I think that we haven't. I think that we've stuck to what our investment priorities have been and I would argue that over the past we've performed well. Have we been doing the right things at the right time? I'm going to try and address some of that as we move forward as part of that whole approach to creating a more systematic economy with our fellow partners. All of that is up for rethought going forward. Can I ask the panel what they would see the key strengths and assets of the south to build on going forward, please? Michael Sham. I suppose that, first point, I'm from the Scottish funding council and I would say this, but we have two vibrant, powerful colleges in the south in which we invest over £20 million serving thousands of learners each year and with a broad curricular offer. They're doing so, as we've acknowledged earlier, in a diverse region characterised by remote locations, by rurality, and they're doing so with imagination, I think. One of the terrific outcomes, frankly, from the south of Scotland enterprise partnership on which I think all of us are represented is an investment in digital capacity for the two colleges. Through the south of Scotland, we'll be able in the colleges to create a virtual hub of learning with, think of it, essentially three hubs off which we'll spin 20 spokes into different locations across the geography of the south. Those spokes will be cited in schools, in businesses, in community centres. The opportunity, I think, for building on the capacity of the college and not seeing that locked down into a physical location but with a broad and diverse offer, that's a great opportunity on which we can seize. Anyone else want to come in? Douglas? I'll say a little bit from the high perspective and touch on the social elements as well, maybe John, if I may. I get the strength in communities in the social development aspect has been key to what each IE have done since our predecessor was set up 53 years ago. It remains vitally important to what we do and how we do it today. It helps us to get to all parts of the region that's particularly important in our more rural and remote areas. Many of those issues are, I suppose, mirrored in the south. I think that social enterprise and our work with communities is an important opportunity for the south. We account manage around 150 social enterprises across the Ions and Ions. About 40 of those are almost community account managed, but we work with whole communities on that concentrated place-based approach. I see that as a real opportunity, particularly for the more remote and economically challenged parts of the south of Scotland. On the tourism aspect, first of all, small businesses are the backbone of the tourism industry, not just in the south but across the whole of the country. Down in the south, we work together and have done for a number of years with over 2,000 businesses. The challenge that we have is to get them to join up so that the total product offering that they have is seamless for visitors to access. There's a very rich tapestry of cultural events, social events, down right across the whole of the south of Scotland. What we're trying to do with the main players down there is to join it up so that it becomes a year-round destination. One of the weaknesses is that it's very seasonal, again, like certain aspects of the rest of the country, but they also have a fairly diversified business base. A lot of that stemmed from foot and mouth, if you remember, all those years back. Particularly farms went into tourism. That meant that they started to engage with the food and drink industry down there. There's a very rich offering, but they do have challenges. There are infrastructure challenges, there are connectivity challenges, there are skills challenges. In Dumfries and Galloway, it's almost 30 per cent of the workforce are in tourism, over 11 per cent in the borders. Obviously, we are facing a major, major challenge over the next months and years to come in terms of skills, skills shortages, and making sure that tourism is seen as a career for young people who live in the area to adopt. Thank you very much, panel. There's a few full-art questions on that. Jamie, you wanted to ask one followed by Mike. Thank you, convener. It's just in response to Mr Brody. Can I just clarify whether you said one of the economic pressures facing the area was a under-utilisation of skills? Is that the phrase that you used? Can you just explain what you mean by that? Under-utilisation of skills is very different from lack of necessary skills or available skills. Absolutely. That is what I said. If you allow me to go technical for just a moment, essentially skills under-utilisation is where someone is working in a job with a particular qualification, but the level at which they're working with in that business is below the qualification that they hold. We track that through the employer skills survey right across Scotland as part of the analysis that we've done for the regional skills investment plan for the south of Scotland. That's highlighted as a major issue. Our sense of that is that that's a kind of demand side issue. So the answer is not necessarily to say let skill people to lower levels, but there's a challenge there in terms of the quality of work and the quality of jobs that there are in the region. Thank you. Sorry, I'd like to follow up the rather direct question that John Finnie asked Steve Dunlop. Whether Scottish Enterprise had failed south of Scotland and it will forgive me for saying so, you would say that, wouldn't you? Response, which is no, we haven't. What I'd like to know from you in that case is why do you think that we are now looking through a bill setting up a south of Scotland enterprise bill if it's not the fault of Scottish Enterprise? Why has the demand been there? Surely it is to fill a gap and surely Scottish Enterprise can't just say, well, it's not our fault. Yeah, thank you for that. As I say, we have resources, unlimited resources or resources within which to work and over the last 10 years we have focused those resources on sectors and on growing companies that we believed would have the maximum impact for growth for Scotland. On that basis, we have supported companies the demand that comes towards us who have the capability to grow in those places and in those sectors. It has meant that through that model that the number of companies that have come from the south have been fewer than other parts of Scotland and that's a fact. That has meant that there is a gap but we are not the only people who supply business support. There is business gateway, local authorities and so on but we in the past have chosen to focus on that. However, I do recognise that the issue of place and the economies of place is an area that we would want to do more in and as I look at our organisation today we are reorganising ourselves with a view to three things looking at how we promote Scotland and regions and places on an international basis but secondly, how we participate much more fully in regional economics and regional economic partnerships. Quite soon Scotland will be covered by regional economic partnerships of one form or another and I want Scottish Enterprise to be a full participant in those. We will move back into place. We cannot work nationally, regionally and locally so we will need to partner with the south and with high as we currently do and other regional economic partnerships to work on a systematic basis. I recognise that there have been gaps from our provision but that is probably not unusual given the limited resources that we have had but I will be deploying our resources in a way as we move forward that will recognise the importance of regions and therefore our relationship with the emerging south of Scotland partnership will be really key. Differentiating what we do at a local basis, a regional or national basis and I would absolutely commit that Scottish Enterprise and the core skills that we have around international and business growth and many other things, we will continue to support the south fully. Maureen, you want to ask a question. Yes, we have mentioned rurality and agriculture. Clearly the south-west of Scotland has more or less become the hub for milk production in Scotland. It is a product where there is a huge potential for value added. Can I ask what discussions you have had with the rural leaders forum in terms of growing markets for milk production and value added products for milk? Who would like to head off on that? Michael, are you trying to catch my eye or to avoid it? I am trying to avoid your eye. I can give an answer to that question. It is not a terribly positive one. It is simply to say that the SFC itself has had no such discussions. One of the things we ask from our colleges as we develop outcome agreements with them is that they illustrate how they are responding to the demands of businesses in the region that they serve. I do not recall specific provision for daring in either of the outcome agreements but I will check that for the member and report back. I do not have the answer to that. I would be delighted to reach out and find out and respond separately to you. The basis of everyone is definitely now looking away. John, it looks like yours is the next question. From our perspective there are certainly some challenges in the south. One of the figures that we are given is that on business start-ups in Dumfries and Galloway there are 31 per 10,000 people whereas the Scottish average is 50. I am going to mention business start-ups and other challenge seems to be that there is a lack of medium and larger enterprises in the south of Scotland. Do you see those as the major challenges? Are there any reasons why they are major challenges or are there other ones as well that you identify? I think that there is a lower start-up rate and I would defer to business gateway colleagues on that front and the pipeline that flows through that mechanism is not that strong. That is definitely a challenge for us. Having said that, those companies that do start-up there seems to be a greater resilience from those companies. The survival rate is ahead of most other parts of Scotland. That is a good thing. There are many businesses as a proportion of businesses that are 50 plus per population. There are more of those in the south. One of my colleagues said that it is a very mixed picture. It is not a homogenous place but those underlying characteristics are indeed a challenge. Do you think that there is a larger number of smaller medium businesses rather than one big one? We lost pennies recently. Is that putting all your eggs in the one basket? I personally would support an economy that is very adaptive and resilient to change. If you have single major employers and we see the consequences of those and that happens all the time then the consequences and the ability for an economy to adapt to single major employers is much more difficult. Where you see regions where there is a real diversity of businesses made up of many small and medium sizes then they can adapt and flex but that is not to say that we don't want some underpinning major businesses so all things are balanced. When I look at the statistics there there is a culture of business in self-employment and albeit micro-business. I think that there is something positive to work on there and I would obviously be very keen to support the new partnership in looking into that business base. Another point that I would say and it's more a reflection on what we do and what I would want to support the new agency in doing is that I think we have been passive in the sense that business has come to us in looking for support. I think that we now need as an agency and I would certainly want to collaborate with the south for us as a system to go hunting for all that talent to dig it out, to spot where the talent is and wrap around it and go looking for it in a much more proactive way. I think that that's a kind of cultural change for us as a system to be able to step into. For me, particularly over the next few years there's going to be lots of economic shock. We need a business base that is capable of responding. They can only respond if we as a system, a collective can give advice about what's coming their way in presenting a state of readiness and therefore that again is a systematic response that we are beginning to build much greater capability of. OK, I don't know if anyone else. I wonder if Skills Development Scotland did you just react to where the needs are or are you trying to consciously encourage people to start our businesses? We don't have a remit in relation to business start-up per se. I think in respect of the skills challenges that we face in the south of the number of very small micro businesses that present a number of challenges for us. I think that the first is actually about getting those employers to understand and articulate what they need in relation to future skills. That's often a problem. I think that we've recognised that smaller companies often have challenges in terms of accessing training for their staff or taking on apprenticeships in particular. We are currently piloting approaches across rural Scotland looking at things like shared apprenticeships and hosted apprenticeship models that allow smaller companies to fully participate in those programmes. We've also introduced a rural uplift around training provision for modern apprenticeship training in rural areas, which is, yes, targeted at rural areas, but in part recognising some of the challenges that very small companies face. Following on from that, young people leaving the area, that would be true of a lot of rural areas. Have you any particular comments on the south as to young people there and how we attract more young people in? I would be interested in Mr Cowan's view as to what are the similarities between the high area and the south of Scotland and other differences between them, but especially about young people. Before you come in, Michael was quite keen to answer the last question and I'm sorry, I didn't get you in in time. Michael, would you like to try and answer the last question and if you feel you can contribute to that, then I'll bring in Douglas. I'll do so very briefly and it touches on the follow-up question as well, but as Chris was saying on the question of business start-up, skills provision in this respect is important. As we were doing some work over the summer, between Skills Development Scotland and the Scottish Funding Council we were talking about the skills that we needed to inculcate in learners of the future and this notion of enterprise and entrepreneurship and the capacity to be can do in your outlook is very much at the core of that ambition. While it's not a direct response to what are you doing to stimulate business start-up, the skills supply side is on that I think and that perhaps touches on the point of helping to keep young people in the region. Thank you. Douglas, I'll bring you in and then Chris, if I may. Okay. Maybe a little bit on I'd agree with much of what Steve said around the business base and the lack of large businesses. We see that as well in our part of the country. So many similarities and I guess the answer is around being adaptive and resilient much like Steve said. In terms of young people I think that young people are a focus for Highlands and Islands Enterprise the area, while we have seen significant growth in population, I think that population has grown by 23 per cent over the past 50 odd years compared to 3 per cent growth at Scotland levels, the demographics look particularly challenging where an older population than Scotland and getting older faster, some areas more so than others tends to be the more rural you go the older the population gets and therefore the fewer young people are. So I guess the answer is working with partners so education is important, employment and career opportunities are important and it's creating the conditions to attract and retain those young people we've done a fair bit of research on that over the years we think we know what some of the key drivers are and it goes beyond that so there's challenges in some parts about housing so you can't attract people unless there's accommodation for them so the whole mix of issues and I guess how these issues work is different in different parts of the Highlands and Islands and I suspect what would be different in different parts of the south of Scotland so it's very much locally based solutions working with partners to address the specific opportunities and challenges in these local economies that can place based approach again I'm afraid Obviously your physical area is a lot bigger than the south of Scotland and if you're in Lewis you can't possibly get to even Inverness to shop or go to a college or whatever so do you think it seems to me as a central belt person that the challenges facing the Highlands and Islands are much greater than those facing the south is that your perspective or do you not want to say that? The geography is bigger the population is less the population density is significantly lower in the Highlands and Islands the south of Scotland and it's the only comparable place in Europe to Highlands and Islands Northern and Scandinavia so I think we've got different challenges in terms of population density and also in terms of the Highlands I think 90-ish inhabited islands adds to the challenge Part of the response to that a while ago was the creation of the University of the Highlands and Islands and that kind of remote learning model to provide greater access across a greater part of the region and that's clearly had a significant impact again I think the answers in the south are slightly different because the geography and the issues are slightly different but there is certainly a model there that's worth looking quite hard at Okay thank you Chris wants to come in and then Steve Just picking up on the specific question about why so many young people leave the area we've actually been talking to school students and college students through summer and autumn to try and get sense of that there are some kind of push factors and pull factors and in terms of why people are leaving the things that we're hearing is about the lack of availability of HE so people feel they need to leave the region to study there's a perception of a lack of good quality jobs in the region that in a sense that to get ahead you need to leave and I think it's fair to say a kind of lack of awareness at the same time a limited understanding of some of the really good jobs that there are in the region so there's a job of work to be done there I think on the pool side and this is hard to mitigate against I think young people citing the attractions of city life in the university experience and all that that brings and I think that's just a given what can you do about it's a really interesting question I think what you shouldn't do about it is to try and build a wall around the region and say that you can't leave but what you can do there are many things you can do and some of these I think are already under way you can broaden the opportunities to stay whether it's through apprenticeships or whether it's through access to the college provision that Michael's talked about you can make places more attractive for people to live in and Douglas mentioned some of the what we're doing in the Highlands and Islands we're doing some really interesting work with Westernaws Council at the moment where we're offering a foundation apprenticeship to every AS5 and ASIC student linked to a local job critically linked to access to housing so overcoming some of the barriers that are not around skills and I think finally a critical role for the agencies going to to be making the region an attractive place for people to come back and live and work if they go away to study I think there's no single answer in terms of what we're counselling against trying to build a wall around the region and say people shouldn't leave in some cases that can be a good thing if they come back I'll pick up on building on Chris's point more better jobs and accessible jobs and visible jobs is clearly the answer and I think to go back to John's point about major employers I hope it won't be too far in the future where we can be building regional prospectuses and each of those regional prospectuses add up to a prospectus for Scotland overall and that prospectus will then be handed into our international sales force through SDI and sold internationally whether it's for foreign direct investment whether it's for export, whether it's for capital human or financial as well as gluing together all our Scottish capability in international markets but at the heart of it will be having a prospectus that we can say here is what the south has to offer and when we look at that prospectus those are genuinely investable projects and places that do deal with the complexity of joining up all those opportunities and that is something that we would want to progress very quickly across that network of Scotland and therefore make it much more easy to attract foreign direct investment of all scales that give us a chance to create those more better jobs Stuart, did you want to and then Lawrence for the question he's been suggested to me that one of the issues in retention but more probably in attracting people back to rural areas younger if not young people is partner preference and employment needs in other words if someone you might want to get back has a partner who's got a set of needs that can't be met and I just wonder to what extent the people at the end of the table here are addressing that issue because if one can help the partner to find the position and have their needs met he will get them a two for one offer I've just whispered in my ear I suppose that's a reasonable way I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole but I just was interested to see first of all am I correct in the assumption that that's part of the issue and secondly is anyone addressing it I don't know who wants to go on that Douglas I'll let you lead on that I'll go first anyway and say a little bit I think we've picked up similar things and population issues are a priority in a couple of the community planning partnerships in our area and I think particularly the Houter Hebrides is looking at a number of interventions around population and I'm pretty sure one of them was about how you can join the dots a bit to help partners of people moving in to find appropriate employment I don't know much more of the details about it but I'm pretty sure it has been looked at certainly now to Hebrides and possibly in other areas as well so there is an awareness of it and it's quite difficult to do though I believe Does anyone else want to comment on that or maybe we'll move on to the next question which is Colin Thanks very much, convener Can we just follow up on the questions John, we're asking about young people leaving the region and I appreciate their push and pull factors but it is probably the single biggest challenge that we face around the demographics of the region and that's partly people leaving the region and partly not giving people the opportunities in the region if they choose or wish to choose to come back to the region but does that not expose the failures of the existing agencies in supporting the south of Scotland economic partnership and the investment they're making in the local colleges We have a challenge in Dumfries and Galloway that even compared to the Highlands and Islands that the number of people of working age with no skills at all is twice the level in the south of Scotland than it is in the Highlands and Islands it's not a rural issue, there's a specific issue in the south of Scotland that existing agencies are frankly not tackling at the moment and is that not a criticism of the funding council that actually you're saying that a big investment from the new partnership it took them to come along to make that investment is that not a failure for the funding council because we don't have for example a south of Scotland university but we have a Highlands and Islands university and we have a university campus fortunately now starting to show incremental growth at the Crichton but frankly not at the level at all that's going to be attractive enough to get young people to stay in the region and is that not something that the funding council should be tackling? Right, to give everyone fair warning that I'll let Steve come in at the end. Okay. I think the creation of the hub and spoke model is not a failing of the funding council. The fact is there is limited resource as Steve has said earlier and we try to distribute that resource as fairly as possible as we can across the colleges and universities all over the country. That said, the priorities that we adopt for that resource are changing as well so that colleges and universities focus on upskilling to deliver more accessible chunks of learning to those already in work so that they can develop their skills. We've also got, and Chris is right there isn't enough of it but we have got a wide range of HE provision in the south as you know the Crichton partnership led by Barbara Kelly who is an ardent supporter of the south of Scotland partnership the Crichton partnership with representation of Scotland University of Glasgow from the Open University. That is a vibrant presence in the region working with the two colleges as is on the east I guess the offer from Harry at what university but Mr Smith if your charge is can we do more? I think we can do more and that's something on which we'll focus. Chris. Can I briefly go back to my initial remarks on the reasons why young people leave it's not down to any one reason and I think looking for any single one problem or it's one single solution that we can adopt to fix this is probably not going to get as to where we need to be. Looking at the experience we did some work with Highlands and Islands Enterprise about four years ago around that very issue and where we got to is quite an interesting place of saying yes there is absolutely a role for broadening the HE and the apprenticeship offer and the Highlands and Islands to encourage people to stay but we've also got to look at the extent to which you use that offer and good quality jobs to bring people into the region. I think in terms of the demographics the challenge is stark the south of Scotland is likely to have one of the highest dependency ratios in terms of people and working people out of work in the next 20 years of anywhere in Scotland I think that requires a focus that goes beyond young people and looks at what are we doing to kind of keep people in the workforce keep them healthy connect them to jobs and as Michael says up skill and reskill people so that they have got opportunities to be part of the workforce longer into their careers The products that Skills Development Scotland have been delivering across Scotland in the last few years have met the needs of the south of Scotland Our primary offer that we have as a product is the modern apprenticeship programme when we inherited the model when Skills Development Scotland was formed in 2008 we delivered 500 MAs across the south of Scotland Last year we delivered nearly 1400 modern apprenticeship starts in the region and those modern apprenticeships are determined by demand If there is a demand there from employers we will fund it We have been working hard to establish foundation apprenticeships in the region I think it is fair to say that we have got a toehold we have not quite got where we would like to get to but we are working hard to see how we can broaden the offer of apprenticeships in the region Our part is that whilst we support around 110 or so account managed companies in the south we have helped to think more than 220 companies around exporting and around 150 investing in their capability around innovation at the heart of all that activity is about driving and persuading investing in companies to drive up their leadership capability management capability and their skills capability so that is something that is us trying to stimulate that demand side for the right type of skills so again it points to as required to continue to work in a more systematic approach together What are the resources that Scottish Enterprise has invested in the south of Scotland? It goes up and down every year subject to that demand Last year we spent around £4 million a year before £5 million I have tracked fairly consistent around those levels that is directly into companies in the south that does not account for the headquarters and the 60 staff that are based there and it does not actually track the level of investment we are making companies that are headquartered elsewhere but actually deploy work and labour in the south but at a base level those are the figures You were to therefore consider what the overall percentage was of your resources supporting the economy in the south of Scotland what would you put that figure at? It would be very difficult to do that we do not really account in those terms so if I gave you a figure it would most likely be wrong but I am happy to give you different strands of figures that might help build a picture The way I look at it is the population of the south of Scotland is defined by the bill which is Scottish Borders is about 5 per cent of the population of Scotland Would you say that you spend as much as 5 per cent of your overall budget support? Because at the moment £3 million to £4 million is about 1 per cent of your budget Our budget is made up it is a complicated budget I am very happy to give you the detail behind it in some areas we are able to say that we would spend in the areas proportionate to other areas You touched on the criteria for your investments around the capability to grow the size in the sectors that clearly rolls out a huge number of businesses in the south of Scotland because with the best will in the world regenerating Strunrar waterfront is not going to grow the Scottish economy but it is going to grow an economy in Wigtonshire which is really struggling but that is frankly not your role so is that a failure by Scottish Enterprise or is that a failure in terms of the direction you are giving at a national level I am uncomfortable talking about it in relation to failure what we have done as an organisation has prioritised where our investment should go and that is where we have followed I think it is true to say that we have got out of over the last 10 years issues around regeneration and investing in physical places I think that there is a role for us to go back into that space but equally there is a role for the emerging south of Scotland partnership to be in that place and that partnership will be driven by the scale of the opportunity so that is what I would say because one of the issues that has been raised is around the boundary of the new agency which is the Scottish Borders in Dumfries and Gallows and there are very strong reasons behind that but if the agency's role is to fill that gap around place around regeneration that hasn't been filled by Scottish Enterprise what will you do for those areas of south Ayrshire that are not in the boundary of the new partnership will that mean that you have to change your focus because a lot of the challenges they face are similar to the challenges of the Borders in Dumfries and Gallows As I said earlier in the not too distant future Scotland will be covered by different forms of economic partnership whether it is driven by a city deal or a growth deal the Ayrshers have a growth deal and therefore we will be participating alongside and if the solutions that we partner with those regional economic partnerships will vary subject to what the economy needs of us so I'm interested as an agency beginning to ask the question is rather than what are we prepared to offer the economy, what does it need of us because I think what the Ayrshers will require from us might be different from what is required up in the Aberdeen community different from what Edinburgh requires so I'm prepared for us to begin to flex and change and focus on that in those circumstances Colin Smyth is now going to have to apologise to Jamie Stear after the meeting for taking a question that Jamie had wanted to ask but we are going to move on to the next question which is going to be Stuart Stevenson Thank you very much We've had some discussion about Scottish Enterprise's account management and I want to just develop it a little bit but not at huge depth what I've heard is that there is going to be a shift in the approach that will create more flexibility and indeed we've also heard that there's been significant support given to companies that are not account managed and I think it would be useful just to understand how the non-account managed part of what Scottish Enterprise has been doing is going to be managed in future and in particular how we heard that companies who are headquartered elsewhere are often supported and how is that going to work in future when the headquartered is for the sake of argument in Perth but the main employment is in the Borders how are we going to see that working, is that going to be Scottish Enterprise led or will that be the new agency in other words how has account management particularly in the south has it been flights born off but also how is it going to work in future and I think I'm looking for a relatively concise answer to a relatively long question sorry Steve I think probably that's you and Douglas you may want to contribute briefly to the short answer okay yes we are so our approach is to to look at companies of a certain scale and a certain make up that we believe could grow and stimulate Scotland's economy we recognise that that has left many companies out with that arrangement what we plan to do along with our partner agency is create a digital platform where all businesses across Scotland can have access to high quality business support and over a short period of time have access to grants through that system that will mean that we will reach more and more businesses and support them in many ways and in a much more consistent way so the reach will be much greater and we'll do that in partnership that will free up our human capability our capacity to then focus on the companies that again that we think can deliver the best outcomes for Scotland we will also though not restrict ourselves to sectors and we won't restrict ourselves to certain areas we will open that up and we will be much more opportunity driven and we will work hard with our partner agencies to work out where are those handoffs those handoffs happen already between business gateway and Scottish Enterprise between high and between SE and that happens day and day out I think what we need to do is make that more transparent Douglas, do you want to come in briefly? Yep, the only thing I would probably add to that is that frequently our engagement is with business clients that have good growth potential and where I guess we share geography in some way, shape or form is we work through account teams so there'll be a lead to which may be in HIE or maybe in SE but that would include other support round it and we actually do it collaboratively and we work together and we've been doing that for a number of years one example that I know well is Aaron Aramatics Aaron is in Highlands and Islands but they've got premises in the central belt closely and collaboratively supporting that client Thank you, Maureen, yours is the next question Thank you, convener Can I just get a sense of what the current footprint is of Scottish Enterprise in the borders in Dumfries and Galloway you said you had 60 staff at headquarters what exactly do you currently have in the south of Scotland? Yep, we've got two officers we've got one in Selkirk and one in Dumfries and Galloway it's a shared office I don't know if I've been there but I couldn't tell you the address so it's a shared office so those are the two assets that we have at the minute those people in those offices work for Scottish Enterprise but in some places they share space with Business Gateway and those people will deliver a range of national services for us so are those 60 staff in one of those offices or are they across the sizes? They're across both of them I think it's 40 and 20 but they'll move around those people are delivering services that are pan-Scotland so while they're HQ there we have very flexible working arrangements and we have 11 offices across Scotland and people will move subject to their workload and their subject matter Can I return to something that John Finnie at the beginning briefly mentioned regarding social enterprise support you said that Scottish Enterprise has 20 account managed social enterprises across Scotland six of which are in the site of Scotland could you tell me what sectors those six are in currently? I know two of them are housing associations and I can't remember who the others are to be honest One of the things that came up from a previous evidence session was that other businesses kind of regard social enterprises as organisations that will do something for very little money rather than give them what they really deserve so I wonder how we can grow Scottish Enterprise grow social enterprises under the new body I personally wouldn't agree with that distinction I think some of the most innovative businesses in Scotland just now are social enterprises I think they do good by doing good business so they are not charities they are businesses and that's why we view it as a business and that and certainly we have as I say really excellent capability who is trying to grow that sector and grow the scale and ambition of that sector so for me I wouldn't I would be very uncomfortable in categorising as almost something that doesn't do business the way other businesses do so I think there is a huge talent base in Scotland around social enterprise so that we can continue to support it and are there particularly social enterprises in the Highlands and Islands that maybe there is a possibility that that can be taken up and perhaps replicated in an area like the south of Scotland Douglas I think that's going to come down to you I would think that there is scope to do so the social enterprise sector is particularly strong in the Highlands and Islands we've got a disproportionately large number of social enterprises and they add significantly to the economy 144 million pounds worth of GVA social enterprise delivers to the Highlands and Islands economy there's a census carried out in 2017 looking at social enterprise across Scotland and we asked them to pull out some of the data for the south of Scotland through the work of the partnership because there are 441 social enterprises at that time in south of Scotland delivering over 70 million worth of GVA so there is certainly something there to work with and I think that there is an opportunity for a new agency to engage with that sector in maybe a different way than it has been engaged with in the past has that been helped by a gradual shift in the way land is owned in the Highlands compared to perhaps the south of Scotland where there are quite a few very large landowners Possibly that will be part of it but I suspect not a massive part certainly the land reform has made a big difference in the Highlands and Islands certainly in some parts more than others we look after the Scottish land fund and I was looking at some of the data in terms of inquiries actually the third largest number of inquiries by local authorities in Dumfries and Galloway at the moment so there's actually quite a lot of interest in communities acquiring land and assets I think that the next question is Jamie Greene Thank you convener I'll do my best to recover my question I do want to carry on the theme actually and I will try not to fringe on another question which I know is coming up later and that's regarding reallocation of staff and resource I think that it might be a good place to kick that conversation off Obviously As he took your question Jamie but lead on On the panel we're represented by a number of national agencies that have a remit right across Scotland including the south and the bordering areas that Colin talked about Is it your expectation that when this new agency comes into play that the existing staff and resource that you have deployed in the south will be reallocated or you will be able to redeploy some of that targeted resource to perhaps some of the surrounding areas with focus on for example the airshares where they're not under the remit of the new agency but may be able to benefit from increased focus from your agencies Who'd like to add off on that Malcolm Steve, I'm going to bring some of the others in if I can and you'll definitely get a chance Malcolm As a national agency we have 12 offices across the whole of Scotland two which are in the south of Scotland one is White Sands and Dumfries and the other one is in Selkirk so we already have a resource that's there what we'd be looking for is to contract with the south of Scotland agency to look at how can we deliver tourism not necessarily in terms of increasing headcount but actually utilising the resources and skill sets that exist within Visit Scotland already and making those available to the new agency a lot of the work that we do through quality assurance etc it covers off as I mentioned earlier we work with over 2,000 businesses in the south of Scotland and we have over 540 that are in the quality assurance scheme so we already have broad based coverage in that area and we're also delivering at the moment the Sea South Scotland marketing campaign so it's not necessarily about physically moving people utilising the resource Members if I could be more specific I appreciate that you already are all working in the south of Scotland that's the point of my question is that if the new agency deploys additional resource and capital into the area does that free up anything from your agencies that you'll be able to redeploy any of that resource, finance or capital into the surrounding areas is that the question? Who'd like to Michael, do you want to go on? The Scottish funding council is a headquarters based organisation excuse me, operating out of Edinburgh so we will have no staff to deploy to the new agency that won't free any staff up I suppose the point to make in this respect it's a related point that as a result of the creation of the new agency we have appointed a new member of staff at assistant director level to manage the region as an entity which takes some additional resource in the early years of the agency Do you want to come on? Thank you It's simply too early for us to say which however staff in the south will be deployed out the 60 staff that we have in the south are working for us on a programme that serves all of Scotland and some of those folks are serving all of Scotland on issues that will be retained by Scottish Enterprise so it's simply too early to make those kind of calculations or assumptions and we absolutely want to take all our staff in Scottish Enterprise with us positive discussions with the emerging agencies so it's simply too early to say I think though to your point though about how we support again in regions and in places those other places as I've said before I am really keen and very willing for us to begin to examine how do we deploy our account management our business support our support around exports all of those things and the regions where there is a demand for those services that doesn't mean to say we will move back to what we did before as local economic agencies where we had dedicated offices in places that served only that place but we will be more focused on how do we support the regions going forward but I want to keep an open mind about how best we make use of our human capital in that sense Okay Chris, you want to come in and then we'll go to the next question which is from Richard Alasdair Oh no sorry, Gail Ross wants a quick follow up on that So we've got 45 staff who are actually based in the region and most of those staff are working in schools as careers advisers are working in one of our career centres so in a sense they are already based in the region I've got a team of about half a dozen staff in Glasgow or Edinburgh or the north of Scotland who are supporting me in the work that we are doing to develop the regional skills investment plan and I'm clear that when the agency comes into view we will still have our local staff working in the region and we will still support the agency through some of the national teams that I manage I think that the way we invest about £7 million in the region in relation to staff property and most of that is around our apprenticeship funding so we would see that staying and we view the agency not as duplicating or replacing what we do but as being a really important complement to what we do so we think that the agency has got a really important role to help in changing the dynamic of the economy in the south but from a very parochial point of view helping us with some of our shared ambitions that we've got with the funding council around skills as well Is it therefore the case then that the agency has been as well as all the work that you currently do and not instead of in any way? I'll not speak for others but certainly from a Skills Development Scotland perspective that's absolutely how we see it I'm a member of the SOSET board and that has been a strong theme through the SOSET board that this is not about replacing or taking away actually the problems of the south are deep seated and they're going to take a long-term commitment and that's going to require a long-term commitment We will still still serve all of Scotland from the south so it will be as well as on the partnership there will be some areas where we will partner very closely I'm now going to bring in the deputy convener, Gail Ross Good morning panel, it's just a really quick question and it's for Malcolm As you'll know and as Douglas will be very aware the NC500 in the Highlands has been extremely successful but not without its challenges and there was a suggestion that something like that might work in the south of Scotland I don't know if that has been explored obviously HIE don't lead on the NC500 it is a private company but just to get your opinions on has it been discussed? Is it possible? Is it welcome? Would it work? Yes and I think the key learnings from the success of the NC500 have been taken on board I have to say actually there is no shortage of trails currently being developed across the whole of Scotland at the moment but to my mind that is actually a potential for the borders and Dumfries and Galloway which is actually about slow touring rather than racing round one particular part of the country and what that would actually do if you think about the average length of stay off a visitor in the south of Scotland is about 4.3 nights and that compares to the average in Scotland of 7.2 so if we were able to get infrastructure in place if we take the learnings from NC500 like passing places making sure that facilities are all in play at the same time then there is a great opportunity and I would actually like to see that particular area take lead perhaps if you are looking at e-vehicles you can actually do something very very different and position itself as a destination apart from the rest of Scotland I'd just like to put on the record that we are trying to promote the NC500 as a slow touring route as well rather than a race track Sounds like you are trying to promote competition to it and on the basis it's Christmas and John's signified he wants to come in John would you like to come in Mr Ruffett you obviously take cognisans of all the deficiencies in the aspects of the NC500 the most significant of which was this was something that people felt was imposed in communities rather than you mean there are many communities particularly in west of Ross where it's very difficult to understand for many of the citizens there what the actual benefit is there have been a lot of challenges so I also just would point out I'm sure you'll be alert to the fact that regardless of the mode of propulsion whether it's electric or whatever you still get congestion so just an assurance that you're alert to all the downsides of the heavily promoted NC500 You can give a very brief answer because I'm not sure the NC500 is specifically in the enterprise bill but you can give a brief answer if you wish Very briefly yes we have done an analysis of what we can do better and what we can learn from Right and sorry I'm just trying to think of the answer to that one is Richard Lyle I thought that was a constituency question but anyway I thought it was I did think it was Just a joke from a couple of weeks ago Which is why Richard I was very thankful that Malcolm didn't say that there was a way that he could do the North Coast 500 better in the south of Scotland Richard your question What's your next provision for the Scottish Government to appoint a chair and members of the South of Scotland Enterprise Board Does it specify what skills and experiences are required of them in your experience In my experience I find that everybody wants to be on the board I want to be on the board So in your experience who would you suggest should be on the board small business, family run enterprise third sector, trade unions young people or other representatives and what are your experiences of your board That looks like that's almost a question for everyone but we could repeat ourselves So let's just start briefly at Stephen then work down the line some of the people you think should be on the board Thank you It's clearly a matter for ministers and they have all the experience around that So I won't speak to what I think the south should be made up of My own experience of boards that I've worked with and under and on is that they are diverse that they are balanced that they understand what the organisation needs of them not necessarily what the skillset they bring to it So for me and very quickly forming teams, cohesive teams to deal with often complex and challenging issues that can sometimes face opposite ways So for me diversity and balance of what across all that all those things is a good thing Broad range of skills and knowledge experience, a knowledge of the area and I guess an overall balance in terms of diversity and qualities on the board rather than naming individuals Chris It's an echo Steve's initial comment that this is ultimately a matter for ministers I would look to the experience of the SoCept board that's been formed over the period between the announcement of the agency and the establishment of the agency that's got a mix of public sector partners and critically private sector partners it's got people all from the area who knows the area and I think one of the interesting things is that we have established a youth board to groups and communities who wouldn't normally find themselves around those tables So an SDS, one of the things we've done is establish a youth board and I think finding a way in which the voice of young people can be heard around the agency I think it's going to be quite important going forward Malcolm, do you have any? Yeah, the only thing, I totally agree with everything that's been said it is clearly a matter for Scottish ministers I agree with the previous the characteristics colleagues have defined to those I'd add understanding that big picture understanding the strategic objective of the board and being committed to the mission I think that commitment is new and I think that it's going to be a great opportunity for us to be able to to be able to to be able to to the mission I think that commitment is an important fact and that's a feature of our own board Can I just clarify because as far as the committee is concerned I know that Richard will probably push you a little bit further on this it's not so much what business or what part of the sector of business that they represent you think it's more important that they come with the right skills and the knowledge of the area sector or trade unions or small businesses you think it's the skills they can bring to the board that is more important and previous knowledge you're all nodding I think that with the exception that you need a broad mix yes okay thank you sorry Richard sorry basically I need some you need people who know what they're doing and are interested in the area and driving the thing forward my next question with the greatest respect to the question that was asked to Steve Dunlop earlier putting the blame on Scottish Enterprise we also have to remember that there are councils in Scotland who do a lot of business and work with businesses and what not so my next question is given that business gateway provides support to new and existing businesses given that councils deal with businesses given that skills development in Scotland deals with businesses how can we ensure that business support landscape doesn't become cluttered with this new enterprise that it's solely them who are driving businesses forward maybe adding new guys in to help but basically so we don't, it's not cluttered and there's no duplication how do we avoid that avoid that Steve do you want to go on I suspect Douglas will have some comments on those experts as well yes, thank you for the last couple of years there has been a strategic board that has brought together the family of agencies who focus on this and that's been Scottish Enterprise, Hi, the Emerging South of Scotland partnership as it's currently set up Skills Development Scotland and the Scottish Funding Council and that has singularly been about driving that interrelationship that cohesion about us is actually becoming a system and I have to say I'm very confident that we've made big strides in that direction and we will continue to make greater strides through that approach we have agreed that one of the major priorities is to involve and engage and manage that interface with local authorities particularly through Business Gateway and that's why I spoke earlier about the creation of a single stop digital platform that we will share with all of those partners and I'm confident that what you'll see is a less cluttered landscape I absolutely expect that the hand-offs and the sharing of resource should be invisible to the customer people should just simply see the system and wherever they come into it they should get excellent service and we are all committed to delivering that and in many ways the south of Scotland is a new fresh ground where we can actually begin to model economic development approaches we should be comfortable to take risks and for us to look at that area as a pioneering area that we can all learn from One of the concerns I have is that this new agency won't have the same powers as the highland sorry maybe it should be Douglas Cowan I should be asking this question but I'll say to both of you Richard am I straining somebody else's questions? I don't know if there's a festive spirit for taking everyone else's questions sorry I'm going to stop you there and I'm going to let Douglas answer the question and I'll let Peter ask his question in due course, Douglas I pretty much agree with Steve that's what the work of the Enterprise and Schools review on the board is trying to do is streamline access to services so that all that will work better an observation maybe from my perspective I think the relationship with business gateway works best when there is co-location going on and I see that that's one of the principles of the new south of Scotland agency so I would support that I think that that is a way to help things work smoothly I'm happy to let anyone else in but you were all nodding so it seemed like you agreed unless there's anything you want to add specifically to that Chris, do you want to add something specifically? Rather than repeat what Steve and Douglas have just said which I completely agree with I'll offer two specific examples where we're trying to declutter the landscape the first is we've just agreed with Scottish Enterprise that we'll operate a shared CRM system for the first time across both agencies and we expect that that's something that the south of Scotland agency will be interested in in time the second is we're going to trouble for mentioning the B word but over the last six months we've been working across Scottish Enterprise the funding council of Visit Scotland to develop a prepared for Brexit campaign that was launched six weeks ago and it draws together the respective expertise and knowledge of the agencies into one single portal and that's got to be the way forward I think I am now going to move on to the next question which will give Peter the chance to ask his questions following on from Richard I mean I still I still remain to be convinced of what the new body can actually give to the area you know that given that many of the the bodies that are represented here will still remain representing the south and given that the core aims of the new body are really nothing new it's about supporting inclusive economic growth providing maintaining and safeguarding employment enhancing skills etc etc is there a danger that we're just inventing a new body for the sake of it which will just replicate which is already there Michael you looked so you wanted to come straight back at that well yes may I I think one of the things that struck me is the momentum that Russell Griggs and Rob Dixon have lent to this agenda they've convened the right stakeholders around one table and they've developed a clear focus on accelerating growth in the south of Scotland from the funding council's perspective as I've said earlier we've devoted a member of staff to tackling the the two colleges as really operators in one region we've also seen recently a new articulation agreement to use the technical term between Dumfries and Galloway College and Glasgow School of Art now these things may have happened in time but I think the creation of the new agency has lent that focus that accelerated that progress so I'm quite optimistic about actually its prospects someone else want to someone else want to comment on that Steve I'm surprised you're not I think the challenge I mean for me I'm really interested again if we think horizontally across all these agencies how do these agencies work in a much more seamless and integrated and joined up way and I think we have begun that journey but that system has to be applied at a local, regional and national level and I think what you're seeing here is that focus being brought to some of these fundamental challenges that we've spoke about earlier so I think this capacity that is being brought and brought when focused in that area will make a difference it's not about substitution I think it can add value but it is important they will work cohesively and that these hand-offs again when we are presenting the south to the international market that I think again I think we can add a lot of value and a lot of layers but we do need to be careful that we don't trip over each other Peter We'll leave that there I mean the committee has also heard that the new agency will not be given certain powers that the SE and HIE already have because of compulsory purchase information request you know, I wonder has either Scottish Enterprise or the Highlands and Islands Enterprise ever used these powers and is there any concern that the new agency will be disadvantaged because they don't have these specific powers Okay, that's Stephen Douglas specifically Steve, do you want to go first and then Douglas? Yes We have CPO powers that we've been a body, we've never used them once I'm not sure whether we've threatened to use them quite often that actually is the stimulus but we haven't used them Our approach and there's an issue at the moment where we through partnership with the local authority we will harness their capability because they have expertise, they utilise it regularly it's a very complicated process the new planning act will have an impact on all of that so for me we will continue in partnership here and the local authorities are part of that then utilise the skills that the partnership has and therefore the CPO power for example rests within the local authority so I don't see it as an impediment we have it but we've never used it Similarly we've had it and never used it we have considered that on a couple of occasions in the past but managed to navigate negotiate our way through so these powers have never been used I absolutely agree with Steve In the 97 planning act introduced specific CPO powers communities have got greater powers to acquire land we're working more collaboratively with partners I don't see it inhibiting the work of the new agency I just a wee follow I just wonder that if the fact that you have these powers in your back pocket if you like might focus minds but the threat that you might use them does that do that come into play on occasion? You can answer that but I mean it would be helpful to understand is that the CPO powers are a replication are they not of what's in the planning legislation already so if you could surely just go to the local government and ask them to CPO it on your behalf is that right? Typically that's what you would do and I suspect that if you see that the land is an economic inhibitor someone's holding it and it's a barrier to growth then you would be doing that I would imagine in partnership you would have that shared vision that shared approach with the local authority and therefore the local authority would be motivated to support that and at the end of the day if we are moving towards a much more collaborative space and we don't want to clutter that tool that's already in the system Do you want to add to that one? I agree absolutely Perfect I think we'll leave that there Colin you've got the next sequence I just follow up on that final point it has been mentioned that the Highlands and Islands legislation is obviously a lot more detailed in terms of the powers of the Highlands and Islands compared to the south of Scotland agency and the argument has been that in the past the very detailed powers and aims of the Highlands and Islands agency has meant you've not been able to do things that you would like to have done that was certainly a response from Government officials when we asked why the south of Scotland Bill was so general and not as detailed and specific as the Highlands and Islands legislation because they wanted to give the south of Scotland agency more flexibility and potentially the Highlands and Islands agency have not been able to do something because the legislation that's set it up is very specific Any example in which the agency and the Highlands and Islands has not been able to do something because of the legislation and the powers that you have set out in the bill Douglas, very briefly No, I don't think I can The powers are detailed but they remain broad and I think we can do very broad powers to do anything that for the general economic and social development of the region there are a number of specifics mentioned in the act but these aren't exclusive I think that the powers remain broad I guess if there was one area that maybe it can be it's not a major inhibitor but it can get in the way sometimes as almost the restriction in our ability to work beyond the boundaries of the Highlands and Islands so we do deliver a couple of things nationally and we need to go through specific arrangements to enable us to do that Scottish land fund being one obvious example It's been mentioned One of the decisions that Government ministers will have to do is where the new agency will be physically based but I get the impression from what's been mentioned so far that the issue of co-location is important that organisations should be co-located and there shouldn't necessarily be a single headquarters in the south of Scotland is that a view that the agency shares that the panel shares and more widely the bill at the moment is very silent on how this will work in practical terms but you all represent agencies in the south of Scotland at the moment this is another agency that will be working in the south of Scotland what practical measures need to be delivered to make sure there isn't duplication but probably more importantly that there aren't gaps as a result of all the agencies working together what practical measures do we need to make sure happen to avoid that though those gaps A massive question there I think several co-location who'd like to start on that Malcolm John again I think co-location is actually important I mean I'm sure there'll be somewhere with an in-play on it which is the designated registered office but the one thing that's come through and it's been said before the ownership or sense of ownership in the south at the moment of this new agency is actually quite strong so to build on that I think people are going to have to see it and feel it and it's got to be a tangible part of their lives to keep that momentum going and the easiest way to do that is then through co-location to make sure that there are people across the region not just based in one place and I think that that is the ambition of the social board is that we will look at how we can all work together and just to come to how do you avoid duplication quite clearly there needs to be business planning to get together where we can look at we're all contributing because this really to make the difference that's required is going to be about the sum of the parts and you can only maximise that if you're actually working together and not against each other I would like Malcolm's part each year we get a letter of guide strategic guidance from our minister and those are now I expect will begin to look very similar across each of the agencies directing us towards those shared ambitions and I think our corporate plans and our operating plans over time will begin to absolutely major on where those points of alignment are so I think there will be much more visibility of that collaboration that the strategic board is trying to drive so I think that's a place where you will see that commonality, that share of resources that share of intent in that letter of letter of guidance each year is what we will be collectively held to account by Parliament I absolutely agree with the co-location, I think it works best with integrated teams but clearly part of this issue is the rurality and how do you disperse those assets that make the agency and all of us very accessible to all the people of the south so I think there will be an HQ where the assets will need to be distributed Some of the points I was just about to make so I'll ignore that at all just in terms of the principle of the agency location it's ultimately a matter for the agency but I would echo that co-location is really important for three reasons from a financial perspective for getting people to work together and also to address rurality we're already working we've got co-location arrangements in place in the south of Scotland right across Scotland I think in relation to the practical measures that we take to avoid tripping over each other I wouldn't underestimate the strength of the work that's actually been undertaken at the moment through the south of Scotland partnership where you have got the agencies going through a work plan and exercise which is looking at where we fit together and critically where we think our offer will be going into the agency that principle of collaboration going forward is going to be absolutely critical it will change over time and I think where we start is not where we're going to end up but like Michael I'm pretty enthusiastic and actually hopeful in terms of what the next few years brings Colin, I'll add one more question Can I just come back on the issue of accountability that all the agencies you represent are accountable to Government ministers ultimately and one of the questions that people in the south of Scotland are asking is whether the agency is going to be accountable to the people of the south of Scotland how are you actually going to make sure what your delivery is what is in line with what the people in the south of Scotland want not necessarily what Government ministers direct you to do so how will you do that because touching on the work of Sosep at the moment one of the criticisms that's coming from stakeholders at the moment is that there are lots of agencies working together and talking with each other but actually are you talking to the wider community to ask a member of the public how you would track down a copy of the minutes of the south of Scotland economic partnership and frankly to be shell at homes to track that down there isn't the information there to notify people in the south of Scotland of the work of the new economic partnership and that's a concern going forward to the new agency so how do you make sure the new agency is fully transparent and more importantly is accountable to the people of the south of Scotland and not just in the form of direction from Government Colin, your questions seem to be getting longer who would like to answer that Douglas, do you want to start off? Okay, one of the key elements is I think that broad visibility in presence across the whole region I think from high experience we find that quite important we've got eight area teams dotted about covering the patch with fairly high degrees of delegated authority to flex regional policy to reflect local circumstances a key part of the role of those teams is to engage with the businesses and communities within their patch to understand what those issues are locally to reflect what they do but to feed into the agency also really important is the role of the board in this and High's board also gets round the patch and engages with businesses and communities through its regular cycle of board meetings it's a key part of what we do and I would suggest if not replicating similar types of models to deliver similar types of things in the south would be really important Steve I don't think I've anything to add to that I think the new board is going to be key the visibility and I think ministers will be taking the temperature of what do businesses think and what do communities think of this and I think that will be a key measure of the support that the new agency gets has already started but it feels to me that it is very engaged and I think it will want to maintain that I think the issue of transparency if that's not transparent now I think someone needs to take that away and make sure that that work is very transparent Can I widen that out a bit just do you think the development of a strategic plan for the body which is laid before Parliament so everyone can see what's going on and what would be a useful document which would add to the transparency Would anyone like to comment on that? Michael Transparency in an agency's strategic plan is a good thing Now I think all members of the South of Scotland Executive Partnership were impressed by the way that Russell Griggs and Rob Dixon went around went around the region 26-30 odd sessions in town halls and village halls across the region in order to engage with local people with local communities to hear what they thought and they brought that back to the Executive Partnership as the basis for thinking about the strategic plan so I think we can be confident that the current leadership have so set is absolutely seized of the notion of transparency and we want to take that into its formal planning once it attains full agency status Does anyone else want to add to that? I think that that brings us to the end of our evidence session I'd like to thank you all for coming and for the evidence that you've given I'm now going to briefly suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow the witnesses to depart The meeting is therefore suspended Welcome back to the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee I'd like to move to a gender item 2, which is the European Union Withdrawal Act notifications There are notifications on the aquatic animal health and plant health There's one SI and there are two SIs on plant breeding and propagating These cover the areas that I've said and all the instruments are being laid in the UK Parliament in relation to the European Withdrawal Act The two proposed SI on plant breeding and propagating have been categorised in general as category A making minor or technical amendments The SI on aquatic animal and plant health is categorised as category B to the extent that it would be a transition from a UK sorry, EU to a UK framework would be a major and significant development Are there any comments? John, you'd like to make a comment Thank you very much I have no issue and indeed I know there are proposals that we seek further information and I would be very supportive of that I think these are some of the latest and we've got more coming of very important issues It was one particular aspect that I wanted to focus on and that is a reference in our papers to there being an established functioning joint legal framework and indeed it goes on to talk about a paragraph 14 saying and I quote here provisions for the ministers to act jointly and that forms the basis of governance framework I think that given the nature of what we're dealing with it's absolutely vital that that co-operation continues the very nature of the issues lend itself to that but could I get could we also get clarification when we're right that that is a robust framework because and that framework will be honoured because certainly some of what's happened in this process thus far has not been fully courteous to the devolved administrations and I would like just an assurance that previous arrangements which presumably have worked satisfactorily or would have heard to the contrary will continue Does anyone else have any comments? So I think that the papers and suggested that we write to the Scottish Government firm its content for the consent of the UKSIs referred to in the notification and no to request on a wider policy matters as we've identified in the papers and to make that comment and question that John Finnie's raised about the process is that agreed? Okay, that is agreed just therefore before we move into private session I would just like to note on the official record that one of the clerks from the committee is leaving the Parliament having had seven years of service and worked very hard for the committee and I'd like to formally record our thanks to Heather for all the work that she's done in the Parliament so thank you Heather and we will now move into private session thank you