You can now follow me and all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and Don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button So you're notified for when my next podcast goes live The reason C category prison smashes it Goes over and steps a guy Twisters it in his face. This is a guy laying beaten the thief Pat picks him up Walks out to the landing Looks over land and drops him Hits the alarm bell All the screws come out to the guide of guys.  There was nothing In this case, why did they want those two so bad for that because a court nickels with drugs dealing with police officers You had corruption you had to cover it up. Mm-hmm. It took it took the number for that, you see It took the numbness off of that them two police officers are obviously six years on full-pay at home Why this is all going on dad's been dead about nine years now, but he got cancer never knew yet And you know he was time he was told he's got cancer.  How are you? Very well. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. No problem at all. Your brother Jack Was convicted of the Essex boy mothers. He's just been released a few weeks ago. That's right. Yep How's things been? Yeah, great. He jacks home now.  Yeah Yeah, we grew up in the East End of London Normal kids in a normal street, you know, Dad was a motor mechanic We went to normal schools obviously we was only six seven eight years old Denver time I think I was nine when we left London But you know the early days with just normal kids in a normal street How many's in your family at this time? I Then at that time I would have to London there was Four brothers and a sister. Who's the oldest? Terry me I was brother Terry. Yeah. Yeah, who's the youngest? Youngest one was my youngest brother William. So you and Jack in the middle. Yeah, me and Jack in the middle. Yeah, what was you and Jack like his kids? We use close brothers.  We've trike hit the Wheel front wheel I'll go over and lump of coal goes in my head and scars me head and you know My brother Jack has come to me rescue and Obviously later on in life. I have to return that favor.  How would say how many years he's apart first of all one year between me and Jack so that Twins basically Yeah, and he older Jack's older than me when you're older. Yeah, so the bigger brother try to protect his little brother all the time Yeah, what was like at school was a very protective then. Yeah, we all we all just got on with the school life You know, we all went to normal schools even when we moved up here to up to sapphic and Just normal school life. No problems. We all left school 16 when you could then all went into jobs Because we would all work, you know, and we wanted to go to work None of us took any, you know extra courses at school. We just wanted to go to work which we did Who was it working what age? Well, we originally Me myself I started working back at 15 years old. I used to work for our tech ceiling company You know before I actually left school and then actually went to work for them Jack used to help me dad in the workshop can be dead because I'm out mechanic and Jack want to be a mechanic and you know, he learned from my dad. So Jack was probably early on he's ever in any trouble at school No, no no trouble at school now. So good kids. Yeah, yeah, good raised by a good family. Yeah, family. Yeah Yeah, we live in a problem at school. Yeah, when did you start getting into trouble then? When we when we moved up to sapphic Obviously then Londoners wasn't accepted that well up in Suffolk. So we used to get a blame for a lot of stuff You know, you know local parish magazine said Londoners moved to village because it was an unseen thing then in the it was late 60s when we moved at 69. I think it was But we never got into trouble We had you know the normal things when you had your your moped your motorbikes in your first car The local police used to stop you but the old man made sure that all the indicators work your home worked and all the things so there's you know a few Motor offenses they tried to get us on but they never did get us on That was the first thing you went to prison. Did you do your brother get the deal together? Yeah, that was that me and me brother Jack. We went to jail for car ringing in in the early 90s 92. I think it was and We'd change your identity on a couple of cars and We got caught and Decided, you know, we weren't gonna talk to the police and all the courts and Went to jail first offence first criminal offense got 16 months for a foster fence first offense But then you know, we chose not to Not for it. We chose not to quit midday bought us up You know midday East End of London. You don't talk to them people say nothing nothing happened You know that was drummed into you and that's what we done But wasn't the correct way to do it as you learn later on in life And he's one of that present that we met steel knuckles and Tate. Yeah when we got Who was yeah, was Jack's Caucasus? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Michael still yeah Knuckles was the superglass. Yeah, and obviously Tate was the one. Yeah murdered. So yous were all in the same prison then Yeah, the nineties. Yeah, we mean Jack first went to Norwich and then we went on to Hoseley Bay Where we met steel Tate knuckles, you know to do with the case Nice enough guys, you know everyone was in there doing their own sentences really And how was it then did you become good friends of the one? and Me and Pat got shipped out of Hoseley Bay Jack didn't know Pat because we was only in there a few two months and Me and Pat got shipped out of there out of Hoseley Bay. We went to High Point prison Jack stayed at Hoseley Bay and McSteel was still at Hoseley Bay and Nichols was still at Hoseley Bay So I'd been removed and Pat had been removed So Jack obviously got to know McSteel engineer same thing as Jack, you know team trade same trades Nichols was in for currency fraud. I think for printing money and You know, we've all done our sentences and Come out. I've got shipped off High Point with Pat And you know some weird strange things went on there, but what came to stuff? well Pat was like Rory in the jail, you know, because he's obviously been on the stretch before and he was five years into the one he was in when we got shipped there and He actually there was a thief within prison, which you don't have in a prison and the prison unit itself Said we've got to find the thief who's thieving from the cells So they designated me and Pat to search everyone's cells where everyone stayed in the room So we went round and done that me and Pat not the thing you want to be doing Couldn't find nothing and then a couple of days later One of the young lads said it's My mate is doing the stealing so someone grasped up on someone and it was a Young guy and it was always on the phone and everything and he Had stolen from the cells When we come back from lunch one day a couple of the guys had beat him up in the corridor outside me and Pat's room and as we walk back from dinner Pat then Come up the stairs and this guy lays there beaten by other inmates So Pat said what are you doing? What are you guys doing and I said well ease the thief and blah blah They said no Pat way. No, they know you do it Think it's how you do it. So Pat comes into our room. I'm sitting on the bed like where you are right for me Picks up the red sauce bottle which we had on our windowsill, which you know we had for our food Because we didn't see category prison smashes it Goes over and steps a guy Twisters it in his face. This is a guy laying beaten the thief Pat picks him up Walks out to the landing Looks over the landing drops him Hits the alarm bell All the screws come out to the guide of guys. He didn't die, but he wasn't in a very well That's the way you do it boys Pat went Just drained at me.  Are you scared of him? He was a very powerful man. He filled the doorways 20 stone stairway up monster, but he was He was like a father to me in there Pat was You know when he left he paid his way out the jail because he knew some of the SO's in the prison And he paid some money up front and got shipped to another open prison within two months But once Pat had gone I was looked after like a lord, you know I was being bought food late at night There's some Turkish guys doing, you know curry and keeping it warm on the radio and they turn up with it And I say to him, you know, I'll get you some tobacco or something You know from me private expense because I never smoked and I think and And they said no no no no Pat Pat said you've got to be looked after while he was here and I was Lovely guy to me Pat was you know smashing guy He used to kick off of his wife like most people did, you know, but if she didn't come and visit or Something like that the normal things but but he was heavily into the drugs in the jail and but he never served up out of having You know, I'm an anti-drug person anyway, and I was never gonna go down at having you But he respected that pattern. What sort of drugs was part taken inside? Oh, yeah, everything from cannabis to heroin LSD You know often you always to walk down the corridor and there'd be eight of them in the room and they'd be injecting with a needle that you know when it pushed against your skin It was a job for them to get it in Eight or ten of them used it all been used prior, but everyone come down to anything especially when I'm prison I think this the story to come down Yeah, you're gonna get that but one of the things when Pat left the jail and An S.O. I used to work out the jail. So I was an outworker And one of the S.O.'s who Pat knew really well come across to me and say they getting on John or I said yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah fine, and I said dad. How did you know Pat? It's always been here before He said but Pat makes our job easy Had to work out then So he says he come here filled the jail with drugs. He said They'll all be calm He said our jobs easy They thought he was a smashing guy They thought that was normal. What did you do when you go to prison? When I come out of prison went back to normal job same as Jack, you know We've done our time come out went back to normal jobs I was a builder at the time doing building industry and we just all carried on, you know We never never lost their jobs because we went to jail You know, we just fitted straight back in where we was It was easy to get out of jail and go back into what these other think about going back into crime straight away No, I think then, you know, you As a judge says when he put us in the jail, you know, you need a short sharp shock And the short shock treatment. Yeah, back there. Yeah, definitely. Was that tough? I've had a few men on the show and that they speak about how hard that was.  Yeah, he went back into his job You know, his job was waiting the same So he done his job and you know, we carried on as normal he was obviously friends with Mick still then and you know because they had engineering and They're very similar people really in engineering, you know, they Engineer stuff and and Mac was older. He's over 20 years old. Yeah. Yeah, mix older.  Oh the helicopter incident is Is that is that the what there was a couple of it incidents is that was it? Yeah, I'm fooled. Oh at Chelmsford. Yeah when Jack and make obviously got arrested for the importation of drugs and with Nichols obviously They was then taken to police station the police station the police station then they was taken to Chelmsford to be Remunded in a proper prison. So on the way there they was in these armored vehicles three or four armored vehicles in front three or four armored vehicles behind Going through Chelmsford as I was going through Chelmsford the crew on the ground the police on the ground hadn't told the Chopper of where The convoy was going so it turned off its track the helicopter landed Instantly in the park at Chelmsford just come straight to the ground and all these armed men jumped out the helicopter Because they want to know why this has happened You know, you'd never seen anything like it and I was at the magistrate court that day thinking whatever's going on here You know, you've got armed officers laying in the road, you know, we've armed Safety catches on but Incredible and then they bring Jack and make a long, you know with all these armored vehicles How long did that trial last? Well, that was that was a that was the Magistrates court one that was So there was reminded in custody um That that was only a day that one was But then On that incident there You know all the fat all the families was there well not all of my family. I was there You know stills family was there and all the rest of it And then you know that they then it was then they got charged with the murders as well At the Magistrates court at Chelmsford. It's what they weren't just charged with Inportation they were charged with the murder with Tony Tucker party and Craig. Yeah, what's his name? Rolf Kroger off. Yeah Is that when nickels turn superglass? Yeah, well Nick what actually happened with nickels? Um Nichols got caught going back into Braintree where he lived He was driving along with a friend of his behind in a car. They had 10 kilos at cannabis with him Um, they got stopped by Essex police um unit um And when they got stopped on the side of the road They said to nickels what you got in your car search his car Nothing in his car, but the guy behind I think his name was Colin bridge I'm sure it is now. Yeah, it is Colin. Um He had 10 kilos in the van Um, but so nickels gets out and says look i'm with you guys i'm working with you guys Nichols was actually working With the Essex place But the officers that stopped him Said sorry We're South Asia regional clients squad. We're watching you and the place So nickels thought he was bulletproof Because he was working with two police officers He was but he was he was selling drugs nickels Telling the place where he was selling the drugs the place was going nicking them Getting the money getting the drugs giving the drugs, but the nickels keeping the money the officers nickels sold the drugs Lovely little circle And then obviously the outside force like the south east regional crime squad Look at that and think hang on We'll watch these officers and that's what they found and then of course once nickels then gets in custody And the two police officers in mind How in custody as well they get taken in the custody nickels It's got to get yourself out So we start singing like canary. Yeah, so when your brother jack and mac are in what were they expecting for the drugs charges? um They were a few years far yeah, they would have got they would have got a few years for it. Um Like anyone would have done but we knew from the beginning Um what nickels was coming out with wasn't true So when did he what was it like then for your brother when it was a chap at the cell to to get The other charge of free murders Was that because it was still in prison to say look you're being charged with these three murders That was done at that magistrates court, you know, so they're done at the court. What was going through jack's mind then?  So something had to something had to give And obviously they'd had nickels for six or seven days. Nick was made 28 statements in that time Before he got a statement what he thought was right so The murders happen they get charged with drugs they're in remand And then they get charged for the murders were in prison when when they was getting remanded For the drugs they then put the murders on on that day in chelmsford So that was charged. I was there when they done it and What was nickels he was? Would did he end up getting out he then become a superglass so he could get a new identity Him and his family um got moved instantly He had the choice to do that. How long was the murders after it done for when they get charged? Six months. I think the murders happened in december. Yeah, december 95 and jack and mick was charged in the may And they had nothing to do with it No, there's nothing there was so what evidence did they have when they went to court because I know there was no Yeah, just nickels because there was no DNA. No, no forensics The trouble and I preached on about it for years because one of them cases you got you got no DNA There was there was no guns There was nothing no motive Which is the main thing no motive. There was nothing In this case the only thing they had Was nickels and then obviously nickels. We had an old Bailey trial of six months So nickels that are come and give evidence in there for two weeks Given these evidence in which you got taught a bits In there by a legal team. So what evidence stuck for them to get left? Through the six month trial trial lasted for six months And the judge summed up for think it was about 16 days the jobs judge summed up There was telephone evidence for mobile telephone evidence It's the early days of mobile telephones that backed up some of nickels's story, you know But the we knew that the evidence was doctored been played around with So we knew what we was up against. So we knew we walked that trial We knew it because we could rip it the bits and the legal team we had which was fantastic, you know We we knew that but it didn't go that way and and after the six month trial The jury turned around to the jury the judge the judge turns around to the jury And he's because his judge's final words of his 16 days some of me says He'd my advice if you believe this guy nickels convict If you don't believe him acquit So that was the only evidence after 16 days of summing up That you could tell the judge that he's thinking That this guy's a liar or we ain't so he's telling the jury to do that He's telling the jury to do that So one man's evidence is enough to convict Yeah, so even though he was caught with them for drugs. He'd been in prison with them before He stood there became a super grass started pointing fingers And that was enough to put two men behind bars for life life. Yep What was jack thinking when they got found guilty? Oh devastated obviously like the rest of the family devastated but On the way through the trial there was an incident in a trial Um jack was about to give his evidence in the box In at the old bayley obviously from our previous Um journey to jail. We realized it's don't pay not to talk. So jack takes the box In the old bayley So we're sitting in the old bayley. You've got a protected jury underneath. No one sees them jury only jack mick nickels in the court So that's protected Jack goes to take the stand in the box As he goes to stand in the box There was eight armed police comes in the public gallery when we're sitting in the public gallery I wasn't there that day and there you rest my mother It was in 60 odd years old and my younger brother And take him off to snowy or police station Just as jack was going to give his evidence So there's obviously a big commotion in the court The next day our legals asked what is this reason because they've still been held And they said that me mum who was 60 or two years old Tried to get to the jury on st. Paul's train station Now baron in mind. We're sitting in the public gallery. Well, they wasn't at that day We can't see the jury The jury don't know who mrs. Wombs is or or other son Or did they we don't know this? You see so they've arrested him and they said that they was trying to get to them on a tube station Well the following day I went to get the cctv from British Transport Police from st. Paul's It's already gone We never got access to that. We wasn't given that There was no attempt that that was to rock jack in the box You see but jack's do what give his evidence In the box and my mum was then banned. This was halfway through the trial Halfway through the troll Two mile exclusion zone my mum and my younger brother from going to the old baylee Where was jack when the murders happened? When the murders happened jack was in a He was about a mile away From the scene. I don't know whether that's the time of the murders because there's conflict in times, you know, there's You know the time of the murders I say was seven o'clock But there's obviously other things that point to later and early hours in the morning and Did they not have an alibi or anything? Yeah jack had alibi. Yeah witnesses to say he was with them Yeah, nick was asking on the morning of the 6th of december nick was caught broken down in the vicinity of retarded Um and said jack, will you go and pick my car up? My car's broke down. So jack said I can't do it now Darren I'll do it later on So jack goes later on takes a trailer and a thing goes and picks up and it was in a pub car park Jack gets there picks the car up rungs nick rungs down up. So I got your car down It's on the back. I'll take it back to me yard down and said just get rid of it Get rid of it jack. He said it's Fucked it's broke You know, so jack takes it back the yard and it would just run out of transmission or it was automatic So it wouldn't drive jack puts an all in it. He was going to take it and scrap it, but he didn't So he just sold it to one of the travelers that come in One of the guys come in and said here take it away How connected to Tate Tucker and Rolf was Nichols Was there any connection? Nichols to Pat. Yeah, Nichols kept in contact with Pat Was it a prison days? Yeah, because the prison dies at the end of drug dealing You know, obviously Nichols was drug dealing and there was a connection to Pat So when jack get found guilty All the evidence no evidence against them What do you think was a mass police corruption? Yeah, yeah, just one of those ones that was a miscarriage Just as they actually thought it was him or is it just blatant setup? I used to I used to because once jack got Wired off at the trial. I would say they got three life sentences to do a minimum 15 years And when you listen to that Three life sentences Do a minimum 15 years. That's lenient. It's lenient. You got it. It's lenient. So what did the judge do that? Because he knew that he knew Yeah, he knew that judge. Why would you do that? So why did they end up selling 24? What happens? Because they've got 15 years that was when their first day of parole they would have been allowed to go for parole Jack straw at the time the home secretary changed all lifers to life So jack mick and all other lifers Go to 25 years Someone within the jail system another inmate challenged it in the european court of law Won it So the home secretary at the time had to re tariff Everyone back Stay put jack and mick at 25 years mick then got three years off because of these he appealed against it Jack didn't bother because they're going to be sitting there for 20 odd years and just didn't Did they were all from a deal to admit that and get let out earlier? Yeah, so so mick steel's tariff become lower Um jack stayed at where it was and later on in the sentence jack got his reduced By two years. Yeah by two years So what was going through your main micks family's means your family's made when that happened? Did you think it was just a bad dream?  They're going to the toilet and you think What's jack doing now? You know You can get up and go to the toilet. You can get them to do this make yourself a cup of tea or whatever You know, that's what used to go for my head. You know, this is wrong And we could see and I could see what they've done You know they the Don't don't get me wrong. I'm not any establishment about there's good and bad coppers There's quite a few bad ones in this crew You know Did you feel as if they had a lot of pressure on them? The police to get a conviction because I had joe steel and T.C. Campbell on my show Two years ago two men who served over 20 years in prison for the ice cream wars in glasgow Police corruption again Listeners good and bad cops or this like anything you do in life, but They got their conviction overturned after 20 years. No evidence People don't realize that this stuff happens. It happens a lot more frequently than people think So when you are because you've always fought for your brother's freedom, you've always you've always done protests What sort of protests were you doing?  I ain't having this. I'm not having this, you know Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna protest. I'm gonna highlight this case and I'll keep this case highlighted And I took it on board Um, I didn't see anything else. That was my direction in life Me work me family me home with my own family at the time You know, they all got pushed aside That was my focus I'm gonna highlight. I'm gonna make this a high profile case. It was already a high profile I'll make it even bigger. You know, I'll take this to the rafters So straight away instantly when those two police officers after about six years come up for um An internal inquiry I thought no, I ain't having that Why should them cunts have that an internal inquiry? So I thought no, I'll stop that So I planned the gantry the m25 So I climbed the gantry just before the dart for bridge gets up there and I put on one side Jack Worms, Mike was still innocent of the Retterdam Range Rover murders on the other side The main side when you see the traffic coming towards you the side of the road I was on corrupt police hearing behind closed doors So I'll get something that gantry at seven o'clock in the morning climbs up there when I get up there Hopper seven the sun on the next bridge taking photographs That was all good by organized by someone else so By the end of that day I was on every radio station I was in every newspaper the next day and I was on every TV program that night And I stayed up there for eight hours And I police down there All the stunts in the world was pulled on me up there while I was up there like what? There was a car That's about a mile away And it sat there on the side of the road and the guy would get out police officer You say because the first the first thing the first thing a copper pulls up normal copper and he says Can I can I can I can I have your number can I give every number? So I said no because you'll cut my phone off So he said John just give you a book I have communication because it couldn't come up Because I'd roped all the letter off so they couldn't get up there So I'm up there.  Okay, John. He's going So he said what's your aim? I said, I'm gonna sit up here. I've got my lunch and I thought it's still night. It's still night. I want Ask Lizzie Chris Bowen In that hearing at Chelmsford police HQ To see these two officers that was drug dealing with Nichols There's discipline here in ask Lizzie should be there. I want Jack straw to know that I'm up here That's my request Then I'll come down and they said give us some time John with that they've um come back About a half hour later and they said John Jack straw knows Which it would have done. I was on every radio station and lots of TV or the masses of TV people there And he said, um, but your Schleser can't go into that hearing.  But this is the guy communicating me on the phone So he gets out the car and he's talking away to me. I'm walking about on the gantry talking to this copper.   You see I've still got my phone to me. Yeah So is he He ain't took his phone away and thinking oh I dial him again So it was a guy in the car Who was negotiator this guy was a dummy and I'm thinking why is this Then there was a van sit there. It said red alert on the side transit van all black that wind is red van phone box red Suck there the whole time. I think all the day So anyway, so I sit there the eight hours. I'm up there and then this guy Who's in the car or I've worked out now rings me up and says John um You are on every radio station. You're on every TV program Jack Straw knows this You're massive all over the media He said the towel back Is back to the aid 12 over eight miles eight and nine miles He said there hasn't been any incidents. He said there's been no bumper to bumper There's been no one hurt so far John today He said I'm asking you to come down before someone gets hurt He fucked me Yeah, that's fair point.  I'm billed at the time.  Yeah, but we've done that if there wasn't Press and that when they're people seeing that.  Yeah and the rest of it kind of in a car Got me back to station and searched me. I had a big yellow coat on with Jack free jack and mick and all the rest of it Searched me see him through the trial John there was a guy called Billy Fisher Billy. There's a guy called Billy Jasper. Yeah, Billy Jasper gave evidence to say that He was paid But There was a phone call as well to the person who'd done the murder, but it wasn't used as evidence Why is that the Billy Jasper Billy Jasper and um gal was called to the old bayley to give evidence It's both called there because they'd obviously admitted I think it was the january after the murders that they'd done it for someone in the east end or something and they Said the route they went into the lane Um, and they was paid five grand. I think it was at the time But when they was got into the box because obviously they was both in prison at the time They was warned that they could end up with a murder charge on them. So basically the police had got to them And they was retracted out of them But if somebody's at muttied out, then why is it not? Been used as evidence. They wanted they wanted jack and mick for it. Why did they want those two so bad for it? Because a coat nickels was drugs dealing with police officers. You had corruption. You had to cover it up It took it took the number for that. You see It took the numbness off of that them two police officers Obviously six years on full pay at home Why this is all going on Is that the main reason why you think they've been convicted for it? I'll I'll think that they had to get nickels Um to do 28 statements that to get nickels right and you know, we could hear what they'd done with him You could hear on his tapes What they'd done with him You know to get that right and they they went in with that chance that they Bailey when They got the lifer Did you ever think they would get an appeal easily that there would be out in a few years because there's nothing against them? Did you realize it would go as far as it did? I knew I knew straight away. I thought we're gonna go for an appeal and we're gonna get this because we're gonna tear this to shreds, you know But you don't you don't realize how Um corrupt and how big the case was Of course the fact then, you know, I started protesting. I'm making it higher profile What did you do with the body a body in a trolley? Yeah, I went after the gantry. I done the um Crown prosecution service. No, this was the After the gantry I done the home office I took a fake body on a trolley, you know hospital trolley Pushed it down the road covered up, you know, it's just a dummy Um, that's to go. I was gonna go in the home office in London with it Um There's a publicity stunt to create more about the case for no time of death because obviously Tate Tuck and Rolf Was never given the time of death They decided they knew how they died. There's no point in doing a time of death. Why is that? Because it would give a different time To who was there at the area He would have given day would have come out with different time, you know See the forensics Were they able to if if it was two people who'd done the shootings would have not have been Shot at different heights as well if you know, I mean like The forensics if somebody gets shot in the head shot in the head and Some people say it was two people done it Some people say it was one if it was one then they would have been shot at a different level The same level both of those two had been different levels the forensics not Do any of that stuff if you see the murder photographs, which you know, I've seen um It's so professional and so clean You know, there's not a lot of mess in that murder You know, you see photographs, you know When the bodies are out, there's obviously a lot of blood in there then But when they're sitting in a situ it's just precision. You know, that's a that's a proper marksman That's a military military style. That is how was mack going through his trial because he was a bit older Yeah, yeah, I think his corner as well family members friends Try to get a retrial. Yeah, I think obviously jack mickney went into over over time and you know sat and went through their case and Scoot and I stitt and you know was coming up with all the things that they'd Done to us which had done so much to us How hard has it been as well with all the films and all the books being out bringing it back because I It's it's like it's never ending. It's like there's more eyes on it now more people talk about it now than there was 25 years ago How hard was that for the family to see it all plastered over online to begin with to begin with you My ambition was to keep it highlighted. So when the books started coming out in the films I used to say to the people that are doing it Do it properly You know, let's let's let's do it properly don't fake it or nothing like that, but You get a producer or something and he's gonna do it. He's why and that's the way he's gonna do it You know, it's like any interview you do want to tell you the news or anything else They're doing it their way not your way And that's what I had to learn I had to learn one to be interviewed And two to learn to talk to them people to begin with I used to say Please please please please done this please done that please done that I never got on the telly Then I changed it before it is done this before it is done that before it is done that I took the word please out Boom, I'm on the telly. Ah now I'm learning I'm on my way How hard has it been for you? There's was a lot of tears. John. Yeah a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, and did Mick or Jack ever feel that ending the life in prison? Although they always knew that they'll come out on an appeal, you know, there was so much so much wrong with it It was so much wrong I don't know, you know, you never hear from jack and mick how they dealt with it within themselves In their own minds in the prison, but I know from My family what he'd done to my family, you know We was a close very close knit family And you know, it just ripped it apart Did then any of your family ever involved in crimes like that before? Yeah, mother just all robberies The only one is me and jack with a bit of car ringing.  Do you know who done the Essex boys mothers? Do I know who done it? Yeah I would say it's got to be police or military style because I had Steve Ellis on who says it was his dad. Yeah This one's now come to life. Yeah, how do you feel about that? I was a bit angry about nipper to begin with because I've known nipper a lot of years lovely lovely guy Um took me seven years to find him mind after jack's case because I knew that It was one that you know allegedly meant to a shot pat and he was heavily involved. I needed to find him Met him lovely guy, um, and we've been in contact on and off over the years and then I've late to come out with What his dad told him? um I was a bit angry, but then If my dad told me the same, you know, you got I've lost my dad the same as nipper, you know Yeah, jack's lost his dad while he was in prison. I see him. Look, he met my dad went.  Would you reckon? Nippers talked about his dad doing it his evidence Has not changed from 20 years ago when he was a second person arrested Nick Nippers Nippers talking to people like it's just like it's spoken to you Hasn't changed So He hasn't got a copy of his statement if he can remember that up here That guy's not lying. I believe there's a lot in what's coming out of there And how does that make you feel that your brother's And his friends in prison for life or somebody else's murder?  It's not for me.  You've got the original officer that arrested nickels turning around You know, and there's more so I've heard What about angle angle to anger towards nipper or his dad? No, I've got no, you know If it was true, he's dealt with it. He's dealt with it his way and I'm too old now in the earlier days. I would Don't have a protest or something. You know, but Jack's home now. He's with his mum. Yeah, because a lot of people will question it Why why now say that statement? Is it because jack's out now? Is it because Maybe they're trying to get money for it, which is really so but why make the statement now and not? Five years ago 10 years ago. Um, can't be a difficult one for people looking from the outside.   Yeah, you can't you can't pick at the bits What you're saying, you know and and I'm especially pick this case inside out to bits over the years And you can't pick ease what he's saying to bits So why can't they use that in court? Again Why wouldn't they love why why would they if they take that back to court?  That'll get referred back That will be resolved in a court of law Jack and Mick's name will be cleared What about, um The Sun newspaper you were in you done an article three weeks ago. Yeah just came through some stuff I think a lot of investigators come through and yeah and done the case and basically says look Those guys never done those murders. Yeah, that's three place officers To do with the case You know, I think I've called TMI or something like that. Um, they've got videos online um Same similar question to what you asked me Why now Why have they come this is an officer that arrests Nichols and other officers to do with the case Why come now Why not come, you know, I'm not saying all police are bad. I have a police officer rings me every year He lives in Spain. How's jack lovely lovely guy used to come water scheme of us everything Lovely man. He was a local sergeant where we lived up in Suffolk So it was good And it's bad And you've got to ask yourself these guys now that come forward. Yes, they're helping the legal teams blah blah blah But why now Do you think you ever get closure on it for Jack, Mick yourself the closure will come How hard have you been feeding over the last few years as a get-tie or something? Um I think really going back to my la one of my last stunts, um At the high court we had an appeal in 2006 Um, and when we had this appeal Um The Daily Mail newspaper at the time took us on board Got my whole family to keep them to themselves Took us to the hotel. We sat in this appeal hearing Um, and then at this appeal hearing We had so many points because the super grass in the case nickels Had written a book and we found out the book He'd been paid money And we had this appeal and we proved it in the appeal court So we knew we'd won but the judge deferred The judgment for a month Because he needed to sit back three judges in the appeal court sit back Diagnose it and come up with Um, what they're going to do Or obviously be told what they're going to do and what I used to think at the time And they they obviously deferred it for a month Come to the day of the appeal, you know, you're going back to a high school in the land Family all taken there but the Daily Mail looked after Perfectly and we're in a hotel the night before so we're sitting in this hotel Sitting in a bar I'll go up to the room to go to the toilet because you don't normally like using a hotel toilet If you've got your own room, do you think there's your century seat? I've got my room, my phone's on the side and it's ringing So I'll pick the phone up It's a woman from the reporter from the Daily Mirror She says, John, I want your first opinion On where Jack's lost to appeal tomorrow I think who is this woman? Who is this woman? You know, and I know someone very high up in the Daily Mirror Um, and I thought I'll ring him Because he's been a godsend all while being protesting And he's ears at the top of the mirror So I rings him up and I says His phone goes through to a broad tone So I know he's a broad Rings him up, he says, John, I'm on this I said, yeah, just one thing I said, one of your silly girls just rung me up and asked me about the appeal tomorrow Give me 10 minutes He rings me back, he's in Tenerife He rings me back and says, John, that's right You've lost your appeal tomorrow I'm thinking, are they right or are they not? Can they be right?  How did that girl know? 2011, that was 2006 and 2011 The phone hacking come out Them judges must have been hacked It's the only way Three high court judges was never going to tell The city's daily mirror report So they had the information? They had the information, they was right But it haunted me, it haunted me bad Because you're paranoid, I can play a massive part in all this as well And then before you know it destroys your mental health and it's hard Especially if you know your brother's innocence and that's all you're fighting for Would Jack do a polygraph test? Yeah, 100% he would do it How were they treated in prison with the three murders, Jack and Mick? Yeah, fine, he went through his sentence Obviously there were problems within the jail, which happens in every jail There was a problem with making bacon sandwiches And you can't have bacon in the jail now You know, that's been banned because the Muslims don't like it So there's a problem there and there's obviously a few fights And Jack and Mick both got injured, badly Just the normal things, you know, what happens within the jail How's Jack, he's coming out to COVID in a lockdown house He doesn't know as if much has really changed How was he his very first day out after spending over 20 years in prison?  He'll adapt to cocaine, yeah Yeah Yeah, he's strong, you see, because He's still young as well, he's only in his 50s But Mick's in his 70s, it's a different ball game as well Yeah, Jack's now 60 So, yeah, he's still, you know, he's still relatively young I suppose, same as me sort of thing But he'll just get on, that's what we do Yeah, just got to push on So where do you go from here, John? It'll go back, obviously the criminal case review commission's got it And they've got it, and that'll be referred back to the court of appeal And that one I reckon will win And what happens there then? Because this will be one of the biggest miscarriages you've ever seen In the UK's ever seen that This goes deep then, do they want this to get thrown out or Or change the conviction, because the shut then That will be questioned, that will be unbelievable I reckon probably what they'll do at the end, they'll probably let it Let it get overturned by the technicality of something we've come up with Or the lawyers, not we, the lawyers have come up with And I reckon that that will get That will definitely get overturned But what they'll say then is, the question will be asked Are the Essex Falls looking for anyone else? And the answer will be, due to the passage of time We're not looking for nobody else In other words, we think Jack and Mick are still guilty They haven't got answers to the question, have they? They do it with all the cases Has any police ever came forward and says to you that we don't think it's them After the case, after the conviction Only the ones that are coming out of the woodwork now They came forward before? No, not before now Oh, just the ones that are speaking out now The ones that are speaking out now I know that they're getting, that he's out I don't understand it, is it a money thing?  You know, you've got to ask Did you ever question Jack over it? Did you ever think to yourself that he'd done it? I would know We don't ever think to give it I would know If Jack went there to, you know, to a scene like that Is he going to take a bunch of mates?  Mick was, I think, Mick was I forget where he was He was, well, Mick lives in Essex anyway So he was somewhere in Essex I forget where his Hallaby was, Mick's But it didn't, you know, none of it They tried to link it to telephone evidence To telephone masks But there was a telephone expert who we had on the trial Who the police have used ever since our trial Because he was that good And still use him to this day He was used on the Holly and Jessica murders up in Cambridge You know, the two young girls Yeah, Manchester Soham, Cambridge Because he knew them telephones never left There, he gave the evidence in that trial against Ian Huntley You know, Max Enkar That was their, they got convicted on that That was our telephone expert That the police used today He says In the old Bailey, Nichols was lying And still says it to this day That man still rings my mother To this day And that's a specialist, but they're using Yeah, and that wasn't even enough to get them off with You know, we've had that one go back to the appeal court The telephone evidence and the rest of it But they have ways of, you know, saying words To explain different things So that, you know, you could say, is this right? And they would do it in different ways As Mick Stirling Yeah, Mick Stirling How hard does it for both men who plead their innocence To then be losing family members and friends while in prison Knowing that you're innocent Of course, it should have been even harder for them in there Yeah, that's what I'm saying Did they struggle? Was your dad still around? Did he be passed away?  Just admit it You get out And my brother said, I ain't admitting to something I've never done You know, which was a, well, terrible emotional rollercoaster from both You know, but there's no way that Jack was going to admit first Something he didn't do When would you get out if it meted up? If I would have meted it in the beginning, I might have left the 15 years ago, I reckon, wouldn't I? You know, the first proldite, instead of open it It's scary that people have the power to take away people's lives Yeah, yeah, yeah You could have done to any of us, couldn't it?  Um, the reversal side of it No, there was not a problem there because Jack never done it in my mind So there was never going to be a reversal side The police and authority side, yes, they monitored me Three to six months surveillance me, I never knew until I've tumbled them in the end And you don't know what they could do, you know, it's a funny thing But you learn to look at every junction You learn to look behind, go round and round about twice That's what I used to do, in fact, I'd still do a bit today You know, because you just don't know, if they can set them up, they could set you up, or me Yeah, just keep on your toes at all times I think there's nothing wrong with a but a paranoia, but as long as you're not breaking you down Yeah How does your mum feel that Jack's home? Oh, she's over there, my mum's well into her Mid-80s now, so for her to survive COVID You know, it's not that she's had it, but the chance she could have had it and One of the sad people that we've lost She could have been one, you know, and to have her A boy home for the rest of her life, for however long it'll be She's obviously over the moon I think that's one of the reasons why she kept feint and kept hanging on Yeah, kept her alive, yeah To keep your brother, keep feinting as well It's a sad, it is sad affairs that But if it does go overturned, how two men has lost their lives for over 20 years for mothers that didn't come out But that means there's a murderer on the loose or maybe dead if Steve's right Then it's just never ending with this though Yeah It's always getting brought back up and it must be hard for so many different people Yeah But you've got to fight your case, you've got to fight for your brother's freedom Now that he's out but you still want it overturned and That is scary to think that The trouble you have and all, you know I asked myself, you know, with the protests, you know, so I'd done the gantry, the Home Office, I took skeletons in a wardrobe to the Crown Prosecution Service Because I said they got all them stunts that I'd done You know, but I never got the more publicity after 2009 I put on the front, when I used to go to the appeal court or the high court I put my banners all the way along that court All the way along And I could put what I wanted on them In 2009, we had a hearing there I'll put on there two police officers' name And the case to that date cost 10.5 million It's over 11.5 million now But that particular time, 10.5 million of taxpayers' money But two police officers' names up in there I've never had public city for that day onwards Yeah No newspaper touch me Yeah Come near me Yeah, you can understand Because I put two names Yeah They don't want to be seen that Because if anything else happens to them as well then When I was on the gantry, they only showed Jack Worms and Michael still was innocent And never put corrupt police You never see that on a telly Yeah You can't do it No, that was But you learn them things But what, when I've done them, you know, later on Down 20 years down the line Even I made it a high profile case And you're making it bigger and bigger and bigger But when it comes to a decision in them courts That has got to be so precise Because it's such a high profile case So all them judges All them have got to make the Zed Aquit Perfect decision Do you think that can go against you sometimes?  Nah, because what happens is noise creates awareness Also, because if you don't say anything then They just rest They just basically dine in jail as well So yeah There's no really any right or wrong way to do it You just want to keep their name alive And for people to keep looking into it But if you never done anything for you weren't here Because I know Johnny Steele who done the same for Joe Steele They used to glue themselves to the prison gates And just to keep creating awareness towards their case And eventually they did get out But they'd spent over 20 years in prison And that's what I used to think about the books and the films And that, you know, even though when it came out And most of it was shit or made up But it still kept the case alive, you know It was doing half my job for me Really Even, you know, somebody was thinking, oh, there's shit in that But it got publicity Yeah, it made the case even bigger Yeah, so you've got to go along with it Until they turn on you Yeah, you've got to take it good with the bad John, would you like to finish up on anything? Oh, there's John Listen, thanks for coming on and then tearing your story And good luck with Jack Hopefully they get the fair trial it deserves When everything gets overturned Anything I can help with the future You've got the number just give me a call And we can take it from there But I appreciate it God bless you, brother Thank you