Open just about any art history textbook and you're bound to find Damian Hurst's name. The legendary British artist has brought in hundreds of millions of dollars for his sculptures and paintings, holds numerous sales records, and has been featured on the cover of Time magazine. But even in a career filled with fateship wrecks, Apex Predators dunked into formaldehyde and diamond-encrusted skulls, his new project is bringing him into uncharted territory. The currency is the title of his drop of 10,000 NFTs. Each token will be paired with a physical painting designed to resemble oversized fiat currency bills, and buyers will have to choose between receiving the physical artwork or the digital on-chain representation. In an interview with Cointelegraph at one of the artist's sprawling West London studios, Hurst talked about the tension between art and money, the fleeting nature of value, and how, more than anything, this new project tests just how much his audience believes in him. Stick around to hear from one of the most influential living artists about a groundbreaking experiment with blockchain technology. But first, don't forget to like and subscribe. So, ask me any question and I'll get you the answer. What will the price of the currency be three days after its launch? To pile it up. Pump. That's a moon signal right there. To pile it up. I mean, I've always thought about money, I guess, and how it's a dirty word in art, and that's always excited me. It's like, I always like it when people say you can't or you shouldn't do that or something. And there was always this thing that... It seemed that art was always associated with lots of money, and it's like... But people weren't really allowed to talk about it. And it was like, I remember at my art school, not my art school, so at my high school and middle school, my art teacher was a really great guy. He was like a theatrical guy. And he did... He was in the Jewsbury Theatre Group. And he tried to get me to act, and I played a bottom in the mid-summer night's dream in the school play once. And I remember thinking about being an actor and being an artist, and then I thought, I don't want to be an actor. I don't want to spend my whole life pretending to be somebody I'm not. I want to be an artist. And then in art, he always had auction catalogs in the art room. So I remember from the very early on when I was looking at all the art, an auction catalog was a good way in. And I remember there were like 10 grand, 20 grand for a Picasso or something. It wasn't a lot of money, but to me it was a lot of money at the time. I get a kick out of the idea that a young Damian Hearst was learning about the art market while you were learning about art. Yeah, but I didn't realize. But yeah, I mean, I think it's good. I mean, I think... I mean, I remember once saying to somebody that, you know, somebody once said to me, why did you get into art? And I went money and they were like, please don't tell me that. And it's like, no, you're all right. It's a joke. It ruins some mystique that you're supposed to have as an artist. Yeah, but I don't know. There's a bang-off thing as well, isn't there? Where you're starving art is you don't make any money. You never sell a painting and it's kind of everybody wants that. It's a complicated thing. I mean, the thing about art is it's magic, you know, the whole thing is magic. You're taking really cheap ingredients and you're putting them together in a way that they become worth beyond their wildest ingredients.  Alchemy. Alchemy, yeah. I mean, that's what art really is. And I remember when I made the Diamond Skull, people said to me, you know, they kind of look at it. They don't really like it. They go, well, how many diamonds are in it? What are they worth? They take it apart into its elements when it's a sculpture. But in painting, they never do. You never look at the Mona Lisa and go, shit, that's 200 quid in canvas.  So, you know, how can it be worth that? Nobody ever does that mathematical sum because we all believe in the alchemy of painting, but we don't believe in it as much in sculpture. And then I always thought that money does that. You know, coins and notes are that 3D and 2D version of art because you can't get people to believe something has value without giving it a little leg up with art.  And then also, it's easy to forge. So you need art to stop people being able to forge it. And then, you know, and then when I was thinking about that, you know, I guess I had a fear very early on that money was more important than art. And then through that, I kind of challenged it. I've always sort of tried to challenge it. You know, I remember I really, when I sold a piece for a million pounds, I got total fear and I just thought it's not worth it. But, you know, I didn't have money in the beginning. So maybe it's to do with that. Who's the greatest artist on earth? You ain't really here. Yeah, there's, I read a lot of quotes back in the day from when you were, seemed to be wrestling with the idea of money and art a little bit more. You said that artists need to face money and deal with it. That art and money are like oil and water. That, you know, artists need to find a way to battle with money and sort of overcome it. You had this fear that money might in the end turn out to be more powerful than art. I think that this project then is a sort of unusually harmonious conclusion to something that's been on your mind a while. You're fusing these two forms of magic, these two forms of belief. What does it mean for you and what would it mean for your sort of reputation, your persona if somebody could take this and use it to buy a car? If it did come to function, if the currency became a currency? What role do you personally play in that as the artist? I mean, I'm conflicted really because I mean, I would love it.   So you kind of want things to stay on the wall and there's this huge movement, but the movement's exciting and staying on the wall can be frightening too because it's like you can just rot away and disappear and get forgotten, you know. So it's like, you know, I want to make art that's alive and moving art is alive, but then you can't move so fast that you don't have time to stop and look at it. So I'm really conflicted with the whole thing. And I don't know, it's like in my mind, I sort of think that the, you know, looking at the NFTs and the actual artworks, I think, well, I look at it and I kind of think I don't know and I'm excited by both. I don't know which is most important. But then when I think about it and I go, well, what will people do? It sort of tells me where I lie, which is I think, oh, well, most people will keep the art. But I have to be prepared to let go of that in order to do the projects.  I mean, it always amazed me, you know, I used to give a lot of art away to people and they'd always sell it after a lot less time than I would thought.  They'd sell it to buy handbags and I would be like, damn, I hate that. You know, I have a therapist. I'm in therapy and I spoke to my therapist about people selling artworks and she said, you know, she was, when you give them the artwork, do you tell them it would upset you if you sold it? Do you tell them that if they sell it, you want half the money? Do you tell them if you sell it, you want all the money? Do you tell them they can't sell it? Do you put any terms? And I go, I went, no, not really. And she goes, well, it's a test. You're testing people. And I suppose this whole project is like a test of that sort of area.  And so I kind of, you know, I've been thinking about that for a long time and then thinking, well, I shouldn't get upset by that.  It is that thing where, you know, you can create value from, you know, base metals. I mean, I like this idea that you're going to, you're going to test the audience, right? Yeah. I mean, I suppose it's like, you know, we're all looking for a way through the darkness and there might not be one. So we have to, but we can't accept that. So we have to believe in something. And that's what makes us who we are. And then, you know, I mean, I said a quote recently, which was that, you know, we're all looking for the truth and there might not be any.  So you have to, you have to have hope. You have to have belief. I mean, my whole show Treasures was about that. I mean, I had currency cabinets in the show I did in Venice, you know, the treasure from the record, the unbelievable. And I was looking at the money and how that's worked. And that's why I read that book as well, that David Gerber book. And it's like, I mean, it's just amazing when you realize it is just trust. And when the debts get too big, they wipe it out and then they start again and then just the whole cycle goes over and over again and people are getting rips off continually as well. But yeah, I mean, I think my, you know, it's like art is, I think art is something you can always believe in.   But then maybe that is art. Sometimes maybe it's not. It's like, who knows? But you know, the whole thing is, you know, we need a, we need to find a pathway through the darkness and art helps us do that. Will this project be a success? I like it cold. That brings me to sort of NFTs. I'm curious how you're thinking about them. Why, there's just a lot of lovely sort of synchronicity with NFT projects. A lot of them often have a run of 10,000. Do you have that going? In many ways, it feels like this project was always meant to be an NFT. But there are all of these concerns right now. I think the art world's really struggling to wrap their head around it. But they're nervous about how it's creating effectively a new class of commodities. That's supposed to be backed by art, but might have more to do with technology and the medium on which it's printed. Why is this something that you're scared of? Is this something that you embrace? What do NFTs mean for you as somebody who's practicing? Basically, I wanted to release this project just in the art world until we discovered NFTs about three years ago. And then when we did that, we went to hold on. We got to look at this because my connection was that NFTs were... I don't really know why, but I didn't have that massive resistance. A lot of people I respect have got. But I just thought it was a really amazing thing. I saw it like the invention of paper. And it's like you're arguing about paper. I'm never going to stop using papyrus. So it just seemed to me that it's like, we're already living a world where you can have artworks, prints and editions. And then it seems like you can have artists, editions, prints and NFTs. When I was at art school, the big fashionable thing was video. And I never got into it.  And there's this really complicated thing where people are going, no, but you get a certificate and you get the video and you can delete it, but yours is the one and the artist signs a thing. And it just seemed like a painting was a better option and people are going to catch on. And now you look at it and there's a few great artists like Bruce Nauman who make videos, but they're not great and there's not a whole history of it. But they were definitely, all artists were saying, all art's going to be dead, video's going to take over, this is going to be the thing. And I never believed it. Whereas with NFTs I just think it's changing the world and it will change the world.    But then it seemed like, you know, it seemed like the fact of ownership made it really exciting for artists and definitely for me in this project. It's like, you know, if you can own something digital and it can be yours. But also in a world that I was living in where increasingly I've noticed that all art collectors are coming up to me going, I've just bought this. I've just bought this on my phone and they're showing me all this, you know, stuff.  But they're sat in bars with their phones going, I've got this, I've got this, I've got this. There's no doubt that once you've got this and it's the people artwork, you know, they're going to go, wow, that's actually it. And it's on your phone. You go, yeah, that's actually it.  There's current, there's currencies. There's credit cards.  And I used to drive this thing into them. I was going, you cannot buy virtual goods with real money. And I was like, I kind of tried to build it into them.  And I was like, what do you mean? And they were like, well, you do on iTunes or you do on this or you do that.  And I remember, I couldn't make it, I couldn't square it, but it was a good idea. My son, who's now 15, spent like 11 grand on Clash of Clans. And he came up to me and said, I've spent a lot of money, Dad. And I was like, I checked all my accounts. I said, no, you haven't. Oh, somebody would have told me, somebody in the office would have told me, no, I think I have. And then eventually it came out. It was on a different account. And he did. And then when I went, oh, you've got, I got a 50-pound note. And I put it in front of him. I went, do you know how much money that is? And he went, no. And I pulled out some power notes. I went, it's 50 of these. And I said, and you've spent, I told him how many of these he'd spent to get to like 9,000. And he was like, oh my God, he goes, but I did tell you. I did tell you. And I was like, yeah. And then we managed to get the money back from iTunes. But he had to lose all of his Clash of Clans stuff. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a nightmare, isn't it? Yeah.  I think I should have just let him. Right. I should have gone, I should have gone, look, here's 10 grand. Play with that and learn about the world. You know, on Clash of Clans or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. How about Hotel as well? Mental. Who is Satoshi? He's got to be in here, that one. He's got to be here. To be a cliche. You want to know something funny. We have scant biographical details about Satoshi. One of them is that he said in a forum post before he disappeared that he likes his pizza with pineapples and jalapenos. Yeah.  Yeah, I mean... Look at these two products and tell me why one has some value relative to the other. Complicated. Well, there's lots of differences and similarities, I guess. They're both rectangular. This one's bigger, but why do you feel you're getting more for your money with this one at first glance? The complicated thing is they're handmade and they're unique, but they all look the same. So I want them to feel like a currency, but be more special. So it's really important that all 10,000 were unique. So if you had one, nobody else had one in the same way. I suppose that way they're like a kind of... You know, they work like an NFT too. And then... But I think it's really important...  And I wanted to confuse that first. And then once we've confused that, I wanted to confuse the art and the money. And then looking at these... Yeah, this is engineered, isn't it? Those would be fungible, yeah. Unless you signed it, of course, in which case it probably will be... Yeah, I've signed a few as well. I like to sign money. I've signed a few and just spent them. And they... It is you infusing the value here, though. Money is based on belief. You know, belief systems... If it's a religion, it needs a God. And if it's a cult, it needs a cult leader. And in crypto, we have a term, pumponomics or ponzinomics. And often this is changing now as certain projects actually have real cash flows. You can value them. But often the value of a currency is based on the founder and their vision. And they give these toxic conferences and that makes the value of the thing go through the roof. So as a founder of a currency now, what sort of pumponomics are you bringing to the table? Why is this valuable for people who want to be base and collect for the value of it? I mean, I just want to... Really, it's like a test, isn't it, to see how I'm... I mean, about that belief. It's like, can you believe in me? Can you believe in this? Can you believe in this? How long can you believe in me? Does it last? Does it stack up? Does it spread out? And I think it's... I mean, I worked out a long time ago that if there are two people with a lot of money and there's not a lot of something, it's going to sell for a lot of money. And it's not really connected to it. It's like, the value of this is unknown always. The value of this is known, but this is unknown. And so I'm trying to make this look like that to make it look like the value is known. But I don't think the value ever can be known. I mean, it can kind of find a value, but even that can change. And the same as well, I used to think with artworks, it's like, I think, what's the best thing I can do as an artist?  Oh, so that's how you did it? Yeah, that's how I did it. Yeah, that's the end of the interview. When will Damien Hearst die? That's in this one, isn't it? Let's go for the end one. You've got to be tired. You've got to be tired. In early interviews, you talk about that a lot being so terrified of the money. What if in the end the money is more important than the art? It seems to me that this project, you're not scared of the money anymore. I'm less scared. I had a funny chat with my manager the other day where I was saying, I used to always say, I was being really serious and I said, it's like I really believe in art and I've been always testing it saying, if the art turns out to be more important, less important than the money, I'd stop making it and then he laughed at me and he said, look, and I've always said, art's more important than money and then he added up to a million pounds and then it gets complicated and we cracked up laughing about it but it's like, you know, that's the thing, isn't it? How money works. Everything has a value but the value's temporary and it's like, that's what's exciting. I mean, you can still go, what I was saying about that, getting things into museums by sucking up to big museum directors and things like that, it's like, it'll only help me in the short term and then 200 years later, the next director of the museum will put it in the bin. What does it look like if it's truly successful in your mind? If this thing starts circulating, what is the ideal version of this to you? Because surely it's not people simply hanging it on their walls. You do seem to want to see this thing moving out in the world.  Whether I achieve it or not isn't that important but then, yeah, I guess in this project it's more, you know, I'm sort of, I'm not 100% comfortable with the flying around the world bit but I am comfortable from experience with the state putting them on the walls. So I think, you know, in a worst case scenario I'm kind of more comfortable than in a best case scenario.  Is that edition number one? Can you tell me the title? This is edition number one. Totally going to sell you. Totally going to sell you. I mean, it's funny you said there's something about contradictions earlier and it's like, I always do that. I always think I'm saying something undenying it at the same time. You know, like, you know, it's like, I really want to genuinely say this is not about money but it's all about money. Yeah, so maybe even a 20 pound note is the same as that one. It doesn't have a fixed value really, even though it's got 20 pounds written on it. It's not worth what you can buy that change, isn't it? Yeah? Yeah, do you trust that? Would you trust her? Would you buy a second hand car from that woman? Again, it goes back to when people buy crypto they're buying the founder. I'm not sure if I trust the queen, but I'll buy Damien's currency. I trust myself. I trust myself. I trust you. I'll trust you up like a chicken. Trust me. Trust me up like a chicken. Did Jeffrey Epstein kill himself? We're going for that one. It's in this box as well. We won't be rid of you. Spooky. That's so crazy. No, people ask me that all the time because I work in crypto and so they jokingly think me, ask me, you know, how expensive do you think Bitcoin could be? Honestly, I think in U.S. dollar terms, it's eventually going to infinity. Bitcoin is going to outlast the dollar. Yeah, wow. You're not going to be able, the time will come where no amount of U.S. dollars will be able to buy you even a fraction of a coin. And, you know, now that this is going on chain, it might have that same sort of durability and immortality.  So anybody who buys something for 20 million and sells it for 40 million in the other guy's house worth 60 million and that's just got that kind of power. And I love it and even for a small thing like these it's like you just would go, I used to have one of these, I used to have that.   So I always sort of have to try and make art that does that. So it just gets you on a kind of basic level.  Wow, what's that? Oh, pick that up. I'll take that home. And so if it does that, then you're going to regret if it's taken away from you. Yeah. Just talking about it as a beautiful piece then that somebody can really enjoy. You know, you're all named after drugs. Is the joke here obvious? Were you thinking about that? Is money a drug? I mean, money is definitely a drug. Yeah, you know, it's like it's the key and it's a drug. And it's all those things negative and positive. You know, it's like a light and it's darkness. You know, I mean, I remember when I did the Venice show, there was a great quote where somebody said to me because I made a lot of artworks in gold and it's kind of tacky, but it's kind of great and it's kind of, you know, money, because gold doesn't corrupt. So because they've been under the sea as well, it comes up perfect gold wherever you put it. And then there's that quote where it said that, you know, gold is, you know, never tarnishes, but tarnishes completely the hearts of men. The proper name for these things, Quad-Tic? He just said it's four panel. Quad-Tic, yeah. Yeah, Quad-Tic, Quin-Tic, Sept-Tic. Right. Sept-Tic tank. Yeah, I'm an expert in septic art personally. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know man. Quad-Tic. Yeah, I've seen this that I made for painting it on my own when COVID hit. Uh-huh. Nice. Do I have a brush over there?  No. Too scared. Too old. Oh, imagine that breaking your hips for your art. Breaking your hips for your art. Yeah, I love this.


seems like the recording is taking a while. Yeah, it's ready. Okay, so yeah, so we were just talking about practical things. I said, like any ministry, the first and most important thing is why am I doing what I'm doing. So we ask ourselves that question, then other practical things would be to be prepared. Regularly, you could, you could be in prayer and meditation of God's Word, fasting, so that way it will strengthen us to minister. The next thing is to be confident. Okay, the reason is we have studied God's Word. We have understood that Christ has given authority to us as believers. So if we know it, we understand it, then no matter what the demons try to tell us, it will, it will not affect us. Okay, because you see demons, they have a tendency to cause fear. They have a tendency to intimidate people. So there can be comments like, who do you think you are? How many, how many demons have you faced? Or is anything, they might just say something which can shake us or they might say things like, we have been here for 20 years, you know, how you cannot evict us. So they also have a tendency to lie, you see, because they don't have any integrity. So that way, if anyone who is, who is engaging in ministering deliverance, if they are getting distracted, oh, the demon is saying this and the demon is saying that, then, you know, their confidence will be affected. So best thing is, we know that we have our authority. We should be strong in it. We should be strong in what God's Word says about us. We should be strong in what the cross of the Lord Jesus has done for us. And it's like, you listen to what the enemy is saying, but don't give it a thought.  Okay, you've been there 20 years, that's okay. I have the authority, you know, I come to the name of Jesus and Jesus has conquered you 2000 years ago on the cross of Calvary. So we are adamant on the Word of God, no matter what the demons say, and they have a tendency. Okay, so be prepared. In case they try to intimidate us, but we talked about having the sense of anger against what the devil is doing, right? So a spiritual anger. Now, this spiritual anger, you need not show it in the natural emotions. Yes, sometimes we could be very firm in the way we command the devil. See, that is understood.  It's not a fleshly thing. It's a spiritual thing. And it's a matter of the heart. So when it comes to deliverance, you know, again, there's a lot of misunderstanding, people think that we have to scream and shout and, you know, show that anger and only then you are effective in dealing with the demons, but not necessarily, you know, you could have great authority in the heart and in the spirit. And you might be firm in what you say, you might just say, you know, I cast you out in the name of Jesus, but you're not shouting. It still works because authority is flowing from the heart and not the loudness of my voice or the expression of my emotions. You know, that that's not the place from where the authority is flowing. Okay, so don't worry too much about, you know, being very, you know, appearing bold the way people will, the way people assess boldness. So you might not be shouting and screaming and yet you can cast out the demon. So we can remember that. And as far as possible, it is best to avoid shouting and screaming because, you know, it kind of disrupts the environment, isn't it anyway? So if you can use your authority in a more calm way, why not?  So that is something we can keep in mind. Then avoid speaking in arrogance. Okay, so this also tends to happen. See, we are so confident in what Jesus has done for us, isn't it? So sometimes what happens, believers take it to the extreme. And, you know, they start arguing with the devil, they start arguing with the demons. Oh, what are you going to do? Oh, you're going to do that? Okay, do it, you know, it just becomes very unnecessary.  You can do whatever you want. Challenging the demons spirits.  Okay, that is not what we see in the Bible. We don't see Jesus doing things like that. So please avoid, you know, such things. And it serves no purpose. What is our focus here? Our focus is God loves this person. God wants this person to be free from the destruction that demons bring. What, what does demon, you know, the kingdom of darkness do for people? Only destruction, the devil has come to steal, kill, destroy. The demons went into the pigs and what happened? You know, they went jumped into the water, they died. So the work of the enemy is just destruction, pure destruction. And we are concerned about that. Okay, if this individual is demon possessed, we want them to be set free. We want them to experience the abundant life in Christ Jesus. So that is the reason I am doing what I am doing in ministering, delivering. So where is the question of me getting distracted and challenging, taunting, you know, being rude to the demon spirits? Avoid all of that. Okay, so then what should I say? If I shouldn't be saying, you know, provoking things to the devil, what, what is it that I should say? See, when we face this situation and we are ministering deliverance, good thing to do will be to keep declaring the truth of God's word. Okay, because then it again builds more confidence in us. It builds more confidence in our team. It builds confidence in the listener, the person whom you are ministering to. And it will, it will weaken the hold of the devil. Because every time the devil hears the declaration of God's word that Jesus has won the victory on the cross, what's happening, his foundations are shaking, and he doesn't want to listen to it. You know, the way he told Jesus, you go away from here, that's what he will try to do to us. He'll say, no, stop, don't say all these things, because that is the truth that Satan does not want to listen to. So in a ministry time, when I'm there ministering to a person who is demon possessed, here are the things I say. I declare the Lordship of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then I declare the about the work of the cross. Okay, then I declare boldly the word of God over that individual. So, you know, I can, if that person is a believer, I can say, you know, you are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. You are seated with Christ in the heavenly places. This is the truth of God's word. What has happened to this believer? Who he is in Christ Jesus, right? Or if the person is an unbeliever, you can, you know, just pour out the love of God on them. You know, Jesus died for you.  So begin to proclaim God's word and God's truth in that situation. Okay, there are times, I don't know if you have observed, but there are times that in churches and in fellowships, people sing songs. Okay, so that's also a good thing because singing, we know that praise. Remember, we said praise is a weapon against the enemy. So we raise up praises to God and the kingdom of darkness starts to shape. So we can sing because singing, praising, worshiping God like Jehoshaphat, we saw that, isn't it? In the book of Chronicles, he went praising God, magnifying God and that confused the enemy and defeated the enemy. So the same way when we lift up praises, we can also sing and during this time of ministry, that will also weaken the hold of the devil on that child of God. And also, another thing about singing is that it is a declaration.  Declaration is to put it out there and say, hey, this is it. Jesus has won the victory. You're making that statement. It is a settled statement, established statement. And you know, we sing that. We sing that, oh, Jesus has won the victory on the cross. So what's happening? Declarations are being spoken into the realm of the Spirit and Satan can't stand it. You know, his kingdom will begin to shake. So we can also sing. You know, we can sing about the cross. You know, the cross has the final word. There are so many songs, isn't it? That talk about the power of God, the blood of Jesus. We can sing about the victory of the blood of Jesus. There is power. There is power, wonderful power. So what is happening? We're not simply singing some songs, but the truth is being declared and that is a weapon against the enemy. So he is being destroyed by spiritual weapons and he has to leave the place. So that's what is happening when we are ministering. Deliverance. Now, something to avoid in what we are saying is, I think we have talked about it earlier. You know, sometimes people just use repetition, thinking that it will scare the devil. But sometimes it's because we are so sad that we just want to feel better. We say hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, praise the Lord. So sometimes we do that, but why are we doing that? If we are doing that with understanding that, yeah, I'm declaring when I say hallelujah, I'm truly declaring the power of the cross. It makes sense. But if I'm saying it like, okay, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, I'm just doing it to kind of fill up the time with something. I have to say something and it makes me feel better. I don't feel scared anymore. Then it doesn't make much of a difference to the devil also. Even the devil knows, oh, this person is very scared. So yeah, so just think what we are doing. Vain repetition will not help against the devil. Okay. Yeah, are you all okay? Is this good? I know it's more practical. So it'll be a little more engaging and interesting for all of you. Are you okay? Plus learning something? Okay, nice. Okay. So if you also have any thoughts, any experience, please feel free, you can always stop me in between. And you know, we will be happy to listen to what you have. For now, I'll just continue. So this is it. So some practical things to keep in mind. Okay, next is we definitely need the cooperation of the person whom we are ministering to. So if you recall, we said that the manifestation of, you know, the demonic oppression or demonic possession can be such that a person is manifesting sometimes, you know, like partially, but there can be like a full-time manifestation. So we saw about those men in gathering, right? I mean, Nikki read that, where we saw there were two fierce men. Just look at the reference again. Yeah, it was Matthew 8, where we saw two men who were so fierce that nobody even went that side. So that tells us that the individuals were probably completely taken over by the demon spirit. So people can come to a place of insanity. We call it insanity where there is no more control on the mental faculties. So let's say a person is in this situation, no more control on the mental, their decision making capacity. We go to minister to them. In that situation, we are fully in control. We are fully in charge and we tell the devil what to do. But let's say the mental faculty of a person is still functional. It is important to teach that person that their life will, that Jesus loves them, that he wants to set them free and they don't have to continue with the oppression of demons in their life.  Or in other words, the will of the human being, where that person says, yes, I want to be free. That is very, very important. Otherwise, what happens is, see, we can do, especially when it comes to deliverance, we can do our part. We can cast out the demon. But if that person is not willing, one is the demon may not come out because that person is saying, no, you stay. So will of the person is very important. Our entire effort can be a failure because that person is not allowing, you know, the demon to come out. That is one thing. Now let's say, if at all the demon comes out. Now that person will not be willing to change their ways. So remember, we said that in Matthew 12, we saw how the spirits go. And if the house is not cleaned, and you know, if it's not put in order, then he comes back, that spirit comes back with seven other spirits more wicked than them. And the state of that person is worse than what it was earlier. So all these things are there. So which is why working with the individual, I remember once, one of you asked the question, you know, about a person and making that person experience freedom, teach God's word, talk to them, counsel them. That's also important. It doesn't work like, yeah, bring them, okay, cast the spirit. Okay, next, next, next. It's not as, you know, I know there are maybe some crusades or somewhere where you cannot talk to the people. But in general, you know, this whole ministry of deliverance, it has to involve the will of the person. If it does not involve the will of the person, it's like a job half done. Okay, so working with the person, they should come to a place where they say, okay, Pastor, pray for me. I want to be free. Then it'll work. Okay, and even after they are free, they will pursue a holy life that then, you know, they'll continue strong in the Lord. So the will of the person is very, very important. Then next is we would need to remove any objects. Okay, so why does it help? You know, sometimes when we are praying for people, we will observe that they might have some threads, certain color threads, or they might have a chain, they might have some rings, something, but those objects are in recognition of their commitment or their worship to a certain God or, you know, a certain spirit. Now, with that object on their body, when we try to minister deliverance, sometimes we will notice we're doing everything. It's almost like the spirit is coming out, but it's not coming out because what has happened is there is a dedication that has been made or there is a commitment that has been made with the spirit that, okay, with this object that this person now belongs to you. So, you know, some people like to use the term legal rights. So for the devil or the demons, they have a legal right. Now, we are saying we have the legal right. Jesus has won the victory on the cross, but what did we learn about Satan? What did we learn about demons? We said they trespass. Trespasses, here's the line. Don't cross the line. They will cross it. Okay, so they love to trespass.   It's there. And they are wearing an object that, you know, it affirms the commitment. How can I go out? I can't go out because this person has given me permission. So many times when we are, when we are casting out demons, we have to be observant. Just observe, notice, if there are any open doors, open doors, sometimes you can pick it up, you know, externally, you can pick it up and say, Oh brother, can you tell me something more about, you know, these things that you are wearing?  So then you can tell them, Hey, look, this is what is holding those demons back, you know, in you. Can we pray a prayer? Then you pray a prayer to revoke that commitment or that dedication, that offering. And then you also tell them, and best thing to do is, you don't remove, okay? Or we should not do that. Don't go and forcefully say that ring on your hand, that is the reason these demons are not leaving you. Come, I'll remove that ring. Now, in the name of Jesus, leave demon. See, also we live in a time where, you know, everything matters. Who knows somebody is observing you and they say, Oh, this person forced them to remove the dedication, break the dedication. Don't get into all that. Talk to the person and say, Are you willing? If you are willing, no force. This is what it is. You have a dedication with this in your life. I cannot, you know, command the demons to come out. But if you are willing, pray with me, we will break that dedication. And if you are willing, you get rid of this, this object. Okay? So then the person understands now, they are convinced and they themselves, you know, they remove the ring, or they cut the threads or they remove the chain or whatever they have. That is good. They have done it and nobody can blame you that Oh, forcefully, this pastor has removed, you know, commitment to that God or God as don't get into trouble. Okay? So in this manner, you know, objects, you get rid of objects. When it is easy to minister the deliverance, there's no trespassing that the enemy can do because that dedication is cancelled. Okay? So that's also something we can keep in mind. So when, you know, when, when we minister deliverance, right? That's when we have to be so sensitive to the spirit. Sometimes we just say and the spirit comes out and we are so excited, joyful. But there are other times where we wonder, okay, it's not happening. Why is it not happening? I'll come to that. There is a whole process which we can follow most step by step. We look at it. But now in general, I'm telling us so there can be situations like that also. And those times, we really need the guidance of the Holy Spirit to minister deliverance. Okay? Now, coming to the next practical aspect. Sometimes, you know, demons are very like they are stubborn. They want to do different things to stay. So they will try their best to, you know, not let go of the territory. So yeah, they'll try intimidation, but you speak God's word and you be confident or we should be confident in what the cross has done for us. So then I'm confident.  Okay? So distraction, many different distractions can be there. They'll try to manifest like this, like that, you know, they'll do some. I remember once we have gone on most of my experiences are mission strips. So we went to this one place and there was a girl and she was the way she was manifesting was very strange. I had not seen it till that, you know, she was coming up with all these dance poses. And she was, you know, she would pose like this. And then again, she would change it to another dance pose. And then they would she would change it to another dance pose. And sometimes some of these poses are, you know, like, you're like, what is going on? But you see, that's the spirit working in her, trying to distract, but still, you know, at that time, I saw pastors were praying over, they were not getting distracted by all this dancing that she was doing. Yes, you know, they tried to stop it, but she was not stopping, but they continued to minister and not be distracted by the manifestation. Sometimes these demons will distract by, you know, do something unusual. So let's say the person is vegetarian. Okay. Suddenly, the demon will say, I'm so hungry.  And all the family members are like, Oh, but this person is vegetarian. Or maybe he's, he's tired through this ministry time. Let us give him what he's asking. Don't get distracted. These are all tactics of the devil. So we have to be observant a come on. This person is vegetarian. How can he be asking for meat if he is in his conscious mind? So things like that. Sometimes demons will say, I want to drink alcohol, get me some alcohol, then I will come out. Or, you know, I want to drink water. I'm so thirsty. I want to drink some water. So observe. Is it really the person who is asking or is it the demon that is asking? So we have to discern. And if it is not the person and if it is more like the drama that the demon is creating, don't get into all that. You just like, Okay, I'll continue to pray. You know, we will minister to this individual. Okay, so they love to distract. And we must continue to be steadfast in what we are doing. Okay, then when it comes to talking to the demons, why should we talk? See, sometimes it is useful. Because let's say we are praying for somebody and that demon is not coming out. That time, we may ask, Who are you? And the person might, the demon might say, I am the, you know, I am the goddess. Simply I'm saying, Okay, I am the goddess of rain. Then you can ask, Okay, you know, when did you, when did you come into this person? The demon will tell you on that day when there was a prayer being offered to the, to the rain gods, this person came here and this happened, that happened. So, and you know, this person did this dedication and I entered into the prayer. So then what happens? You understood now. Okay, so there is a dedication. I have to break the dedication for this demon to come out. So that much conversation is enough. Sometimes when you ask the name of the demon, you will get a clue what to do. You know, where did this demon come from? So for the sake of ministry, it's okay to ask what is your name and, you know, some such things. But beyond that, to engage in a sort of a, you know, big conversation with demons and finding out the history, not helpful, because we also know that they lie. So how true is the things that they are saying? So yeah, so just bear that in mind. If it helps to identify origins and break strongholds, then yes, we can have some question answer going on between the demon and us. Okay, then learn to depend on the Holy Spirit. You see, sometimes and you know, this whole experience of casting out demons, it's like you really have to depend on the Holy Spirit. I've told us that there's no formula. We may have done it a certain way, you know, in our previous ministry time. But here is another ministry, you know, it manifests so different from the earlier one. So unless I'm relying on the Holy Spirit, I can't be successful. I can't be effective. Okay, so always rely on the Holy Spirit. Past experiences are good. But then discernment, discernment by the Spirit is so important. Also the gifts of the Spirit. Okay, so gifts of the Spirit, there's one gift known as discerning of spirits. I think I shared one example with all of us of a friend of mine who had that gift manifesting. So without much information externally, this friend was able to tell and see in the spiritual realm what is going on inside the spirit of that person. And you know, as we were issuing commands, we could affirm that, Hey, yeah, you're right, there's still a spirit inside. And the way the person was behaving, you know, some spirit of the snake and all. So there is a gift of the Holy Spirit as well, which we can rely on. Let's say that, you know, we've asked the questions, we've understood the origin, we have broken the dedication, we have removed the object, so much we have done, but still, you know, the, this demon spirit is not coming out. You can just say Holy Spirit, you know, or start to pray in the spirit, because that is one of the ways in which we are stirring up the gifts of the Spirit. You know, praying in tongues always helps. So you just take some time praying tongues. If you're as a team, you could just say, Okay, guys, let's pray, let's pray, begin to pray in the spirit. So what happens?  And then some of the other gifts begin to manifest, discerning of spirits, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, you know, it begins to manifest. Maybe somebody in the team will say, Oh, I see this person, they had gone here, they had done this. So then you basically you're getting to the root of the problem, how to set this person free. That's the question that we are trying to answer here. So discerning of spirits depend on the Holy Spirit. Then don't let physical manifestations disturb you. I already mentioned all kinds of manifestations can be there.  And you're like, Oh, what is this? Why is this person behaving like this? But don't let that bother you. I've seen people just shaking and literally hitting themselves on the wall and on the furniture on the floor to the extent that they can injure. Somebody had to hold that person to not injure themselves. Okay. So all kinds of ways. And I just mentioned someone's dancing, or you might have somebody shrieking loudly, or sometimes people also say that, you know, appearance changes. Appearance changes. Maybe this is a lady, but suddenly the features start to appear like a man. Okay. A more sharper kind of features. The voice might change. You're talking to a lady, but the lady is talking in a man's voice. So many manifestations are there of demons and demon spirits. But this is all not to scare us. We know demons are like this. They want us to get scared. But the whole point is we will not give into this. So all this is just distraction tactics because they understand that here you are trying to set this person free. They don't want that. So they will do everything in their part to show their power. But don't let that distract. Sometimes people foam from their mouth. Sometimes so many things are there. You know, you all must have also seen so many ways in which demons begin to manifest. So yeah. Then also we can see because we're talking about manifestations, we should not have the misunderstanding that every demon possession will have a manifestation. Okay. Sometimes there may be no manifestation. But still, there is the influence of demons. And similarly, the casting out of demons, when the demon is cast out, we've seen in general, we've seen, right, that the spirit shook them, the person convels, they fell down with a shout, and the demon came out of that person. In general, we see that. But they can also take times when the spirits just leave quietly. So just know that they can leave quietly. So I remember in my one of our previous courses, there was a lady and she was concerned about her husband. And you know, she had something to say that okay, maybe he has influence of some demons, how to cast it out. But another thing was that they had just started attending church very regularly and learning God's words. What I told them is, you know what? First, you just continue in God's word, because he was not the kind who would come, you know, to church to get prayed over and on. So because of that, I said, okay, just continue in church, listen to God's word and free, you know, listen to God's word at home, have family prayer, encourage your family to read the word of God. What happens is, when we're just walking in obedience also, these strong holds, these bondages start breaking. Okay, and just very recently, I was talking to the same person again, and I was just saying, you know, like, how are things now? She said, Oh, my goodness, there is such a big change. And it's not just, you know, a change that comes only by the word of God and all, but she felt that there is a demonic presence. But also what happens is, you know, sometimes these demon, the strongholds just break and demons leave. And we don't even know so many people come to church, they're being set free. They're being set free, maybe in that service, or, you know, as they attend a couple of services, God's word is being preached over their lives, strongholds are being broken. Now, as we pray prayers, as we command, you know, the work of the spirit, we may not realize, but deliverances are taking place even in that manner. So don't always think that, Oh, there is no manifestation. So nothing happened. No, there may not be a manifestation. Okay, but you could look at the life of the individual also to tell that, yeah, you know, something has taken place here. Yeah. And when we talk about manifestation, also remember that some manifestation can be because of the work of the spirit. I don't know if you have heard this, but when we are praying for people, they say things like, Oh, I can feel the fire. Don't put the fire on me. It is burning. It is burning. So you see, for a, for a person who is ministering, we have to be very alert. And is this the demon spirit manifesting? Is this what is, what is this person talking about fire, burning, go away from me? It could be the Holy Spirit. Right? So which spirit is this? I need discernment. So be very observant, observe the person, observe the behavior, observe the words, and most importantly, depend on the Holy Spirit guidance, okay, in our hearts. So that's how we will differentiate. We should not confuse the two demonic and Holy Spirit don't confuse the two. Then sometimes it's also that, you know, in our Christian circle, it can get very confusing because people, we call it conditioned response, conditioned responses.  So each time we pray for them, they might shake. Now, why are they shaking? Are they shaking because, you know, there is a demon spirit? Are they shaking because they are filled with the Holy Spirit? Or are they shaking because they are shaking? There's no spirit involvement here. It's just a conditional response. That's how they, they pray each time. Okay, so we need discernment. We need discernment and we need to figure out why is this happening and then address it accordingly. Right? Okay, so I think that is also quite clear. Yeah, so just figure out whether it's really a demon spirit. Then when it comes to ministering deliverance, you know, there are times when all the experiences of Jesus are like that, you know, come out and the demon comes out. So is that our standard? Yes, we have to aim for it. The moment I say come out, let it come out. That's it. But you see that in practice, because we are also learning, right? We're learning to, to release the authority of God, we are learning to manifest the power of God. We don't seem to get it in the first step. But that's okay. That's okay, because we, it's just getting better and better. Okay, so don't, don't let that discourage, we shouldn't let that discourage us.  And it's going to be fine. Two hours you prayed, you did everything, whatever I'm discussing, thing is working. So you say, okay, what? Okay, fine, I'm going to come tomorrow. Maybe you went next day and prayed nothing happened. You know, there are times when people minister for a week, two weeks, you know, a very extended long period of time to an individual, because you know, these spirits also can be very stubborn. But from our side, we are very clear, we want this person to be free, we want the person to be free as quickly as possible. You don't take too much time. That's not what we're saying. But it can happen that it takes a while to help someone be free. Okay, so don't get discouraged. Don't quit. It's easy for people to get discouraged. I'm praying, but God's power is not being released through my life. Okay, leave it. This doesn't work. I took the course in believers, authority, demonology. I think what what I it's not happening, right? It's not manifesting in my life. Don't think like that, because you see, we are, as I'm saying again and again, we are learning. And we have to take the steps. And as we keep trusting God, as we keep exercising our faith, as we keep depending on the Holy Spirit, it gets, you know, clearer and stronger and better. And even if the spirit is a stubborn spirit, we say, okay, I'm not going to quit. God's word doesn't change, isn't it? And Jesus did it in one step. Maybe that is something that I'm not able to figure out. Or we just need to pray some more. Or we just need to fast some more, whatever it is, we are willing to do it. This brother or this system needs to be set free. So that is the attitude and the approach which we can carry. Don't give up. Don't give up. Okay. And demons have a tendency to be very stubborn. Yes. Next, as whenever possible, it is good to work as a team. Okay, so if someone tells you like I know Nikki is now serving in a church, John also will be serving in a church. So some of you know, Zellie and that that team. So it's good for you to gather some leaders or believers and then go minister as far as possible, try to do it like that, do it as a team. But let's say, you know, you're far away, nobody's there. Then, okay, understood, you have to minister alone, well and good. But try to work as a team as far as possible, because then what's happening?  You know, you can all pray in the spirit together. Then you can all depend on the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, you know, in a team setting, maybe he reveals something to one person, reveal something to another person. So it works so beautifully.  And another thing in a team setting is, it's good to have a leader. Okay, for that ministry session. Reason being, all of us can get very excited. So someone will say, come, let's declare God's word. Another will say, no, no, no, let's command, you know, come out in Jesus name, or you know, somebody else will say, hey, no, no, let's find out whether there is a dedication. So then what happens? A lot of confusion takes place. So the focus for the ministry will be affected. So instead of that, what we can do is we can say, okay, I'm just taking some plain example, okay, Nikki is going with his team. So Nikki is going to lead. So then what happens? Nikki will tell us what to do. Okay, team, let us first pray together. Everyone's praying together. And then he says, okay, now we are going to take authority. And I'm going to command the demon spirit to come out. And then you can just tell your team, please keep praying in the spirit. So then you take authority, I take authority in Jesus name, I command you to come out. So everyone is flowing the way the leader is flowing. So then when there is unity, there is more power. So it's good to have a team, but the team best to have a leader and everyone listens to the leader. Otherwise, as it is we're trying to figure out how to get this demon out, there'll be more chaos and confusion. If people start moving in their fleshly zeal, sometimes there is a fleshly zeal, like, oh, I should be noticed. And I should be the one who is issuing the command or I should be the one telling them what is the core issue in this situation. So that fleshly zeal becomes problematic. So to train the team also in such a way, maybe once or twice when we take our teams with us, we just show them how it's done and we just instruct them and say, okay, guys, now please pray or let's all sing together or this then we stop and we ask them, are you sensing anything? Is there something you want to share? What is Holy Spirit telling you? So then when you guide the team in a proper way and everyone is flowing together, it becomes so powerful, very, very powerful. So unity of the team also is so important. So we can keep that in mind. So submission to the leader. Let's put it that way very clearly. The team should submit to the leader. Then only it is effective. Otherwise, Satan can find loopholes and make it problematic for us. All right. So now coming back to post-deliverance. So in post-deliverance, as I've been saying, there needs to be equipping of that person. So we'll always see, okay, is this person believer? If not, teach them about God, help them to accept Christ. If not, or let's say if the person's already a believer, then you know some sessions where you try to guide them. Why is it important to live a sinless life? Keep the doors shut to the devil. So we call it post-deliverance care. So where we equip the person and strengthen the person, then we might say, okay, brother, you better, I know this church. There is a very good church here. You know that pastor, they teach the word of God. Why don't you start attending that church? So then the person will be strengthened in their spirit man. They will be filled with the Holy Spirit. Remember Matthew 12 versus 43 to 45 where the demons go and then they come back once again to attack the same person. So when that happens, they will find that the place is clean. And so the person can continue strong. But in incidents where somebody has been set free and they were not at all ministered to after the deliverance, there is a possibility for a, we call it relapse in medical terms and all. So once again, calling back into sin and opening the door to demon spirits. So all these things can be avoided if there is post-deliverance care. Yeah.  We will guide them on maybe some sins in the person's life. They might want to open that up to us and share. So then at that time, we can tell them, look, it is because of this that demons are coming. So, you know, how about we pray to shut the door and how can sometimes people might need more help, you know, counseling, prayer, regular prayer, so much. So we offer all that to strengthen them and get rid of, you know, Beelzebub is like the Lord of the flies. Why do flies come? We've discussed that. When does garbage flies come? How to avoid the flies from coming? Get rid of the garbage. So we don't want to deep into the bag. Get rid of sin. Close the door. No problem anymore. So, you know, things like that. So, people need to be equipped, educated, ministered too. We have to work with them to strengthen them so that they can be strong believers. Okay. So, let me just stop here. We have other sections here on the one-step approach deliverance, process approach, deliverance. We will take this up in the next class and then there's a little bit about strategic level warfare. Excuse me. Sorry about that. Yeah. So, for today, I hope, you know, we've gained some insights. We can wrap up with a word of prayer if there are no questions. Okay. So, let's just pray then. I request anyone who can please go ahead pray. Okay. Maybe, Zellie? Zellie, can you please pray? Okay. Let us pray. Father God, we want to thank you so much for this wonderful session that we had. Lord, we want to thank you for the truth which has been taught to us by a pastor, Lord, about our authority. Lord God, Holy Spirit, we continue on to lead us, guide us and also teach us, Lord, as we exercise this authority in the ministry. Lord, you help us, Lord. We bless each one of us, Lord. We thank you. We bless you, Lord, in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you. Thank you, Zellie. Thank you, everyone. And next class is also going to be very practical. So, I encourage you, if you can come with questions, that'll be very nice. Okay. So, we can look at real-life scenarios. So, anyway. Yeah, God bless you. Have a wonderful day, a great weekend. We'll connect again next Friday. Bye for now.


In the last three and a half, four years, I saw a few people whom I knew for a long time dying. One of my aunts and a few others. They were very dear to me when I was young. They were good people and their lives worked out according to their dreams. They wanted certain kind of education that happened, they wanted certain kind of businesses and careers that happened. They want certain kind of children that happened. They want their daughter to get married in a certain way, that happened. They want their son to go to America, that happened. They wanted grandchildren, that happened and grandchildren turned out cute, that happened. Everything that they wanted, according to their dreams, not somebody else. According to their dreams, life worked out without much aberration here and there, small things. But when the last few years of their life came, when death is coming, they're completely out of sorts and broken people. Nothing wrong. Just life is coming to a natural conclusion. Everything that they wanted happened and now time to go, they completely lost human beings. Simply because there is no spiritual element in their life.  Pathetic level of confusion and disturbance within them, simply because there is no another dimension to stand upon. I decided we must give some simple spiritual processes which does not need so much commitment and intellect and practice and everything.  Now I'm looking at this even if they don't live blissfully, at least they must die peacefully. There is no human being on the planet who does not deserve this. Every human being deserves this. It doesn't matter who he is, what he or she is, it's important at least that they die well even if they did not live well. Above all, my request for everyone is it doesn't matter what you do with your life, somehow you must acquire at least one little spiritual process in your life.  When the physical fails, suddenly they have nothing to hang onto and physical will fail. It's not a… I'm not making a prediction, it's a guarantee. Yes? One day physical will fail, isn't it? So it is not a prediction that you can contemplate upon. It is a guaranteed result of life. So it's very, very important something beyond the physical is a living force in everybody's life. If that is not so, one will be out of sorts towards the end.


FNN the Tiger financial news network update. Good morning everybody. I'm Tommy O'Brien company alive from TFNN just after 10 a.m. Eastern time 30 minutes into the trading day and we have the markets in negative territory folks were basically at session lows right now S&Ps little bit of a bounce but we're talking about negative by 1.4% right now that's 54 points in the red NASDAQ 100 your negative 210 that's almost 2% the red at 10,729 you get the Dow off 1.2% 33 points in the red excuse me 410 points the Russell is off 33 points that's almost 2% the red as well we got some action in commodities crude 8807 we have a huge spike in the dollar index 113 we'll call it right now in the dollar at 1299 Bank of England coming out and raising rates by 75 basis points but maybe not as high as the market expected so you have the pound let's jump over to the pound as we jump around on this 10 a.m. update pound right now talk about a cascade there's your volatility on yesterday's Fed action you accelerate lower on the Bank of England the pound right now at 111 71 that with the dollar index strength and get the dollar back up there to 113 obviously putting a hurting on commodities now you just heard me talk about that article on Bloomberg talking about 399 tons I believe it was or 390 tons doubled the record in terms of central bank buying for gold but you take a look at it right I mean take a look at gold all right you're at 1624 last September you were at 1730 so it's a hundred dollar difference all right arbitrarily we should have went to gold first because with this type of run folks last September you were at 92 in the dollar index you shot up to 112 and gold is basically a hundred bucks below where it was trading at right could be worse than that market if you do get a reversal in that dollar index which you may at some point but Powell said and to use his quote as we wrap up this update there's the quote if you didn't hear it yesterday we still have some ways to go in incoming data since our last meeting suggests that the ultimate level of interest rates will be higher than previously expected he also said it's very premature to be thinking about pausing people when they hear lags think about a pause it's very premature in my view to think about to be talking about pausing our rate hikes we have a ways to go so remember those words even if they're going to scale back from 75 stay tuned folks Basil did his show at 8 a.m it's coming up right now live programming we got a man Steve Rhodes right after that


So one of the things that we can do with Microsoft Word is we can create something called a block style business letter Now I know that sounds boring and very you know But think about all of the mail you get, you know, do you check your mail every day you should?  So let's take a look at that. Well first I'm going to change my view just so you can see it's a little tiny if you can kind of eye this So I click on my view tab and inside here. You can see I can turn on a few things I can actually change whether or not I have a ruler or Or some grid lines if I want I mean look at that for alignment issues or I can zoom into page width This is one of the things that I typically do With my face to face glasses so people can see what I'm writing You know from the projector. So we start off every block style business letter with the inside Oh, we start with the date. Sorry. We start with the date and I'm gonna actually start typing in feb root Feb are notice what happens here all of a sudden. I've got this February press enter to insert one of what happens when I hit enter What we've just seen is something known as auto complete this auto complete function that Microsoft word has in it Allows me to not have to type everything for example. I want to go ahead and put in today's date Well, if I just hit space Look what pops up didn't even have to look at the screen You can see that is actually going to give me February 9th, 2015 press enter to insert So suddenly, you know, I don't have to type as much. Maybe I don't want to look at the date Maybe I'm in the zone and I don't look down at the little clock That's currently behind my cursor. So you can't see what today's date is that that's where that stuff can Then we do something called double spacing now if I just hit enter once that's a single space If I hit enter twice, that's a double space And now we go ahead and we put in the inside address. So we're talking about for example my bill so I'm the recipient of this and I reside at 4500 blue clay road the North Campus address in Castle Hey, North Carolina, you know, what's with the zip code? I don't really know it off the top of my head. It's two eight four two nine So I've now made my Inside address go ahead and double space again and since again, we're Time Warner We're we're designing this out so that they can send me the bill we say Dear Adam we start with this Salutation just a dear hello, you know, if you check your emails if you've emailed me back and forth I'll typically do the same thing. I'll say hi your name and instead of colon I'll actually put a comma really doesn't matter which one you go with I like the comma because I Was taught that way But then we do another double space and so we begin Writing our bill so in closed is your bill for From Jan ooh look at that auto-complete from Jan you werey 2015 this bill must be paid in full by the next Bill deadline, I'm not really good at writing these things as you can tell bill deadline which will be February luckily February I don't know 23rd 2015 failure to pay the outstanding balance on your account will Result in a five percent late fee being applied To your account, okay, why have I spent so much time? explicitly writing all of this stuff one thing I want you to take note of is inside my home tab We've got this crazy little symbol right here this guy Well, this is known as my show hide that symbol Which is the paragraph symbol if I click on it notice what happens every time I've hit enter I've actually told word that that's the beginning of a new paragraph That actually matters because if we think about the computer for a second It doesn't know what this you know, it doesn't know what inner means the computer doesn't care I remember this thing right here. This is for us. So when I hit enter the compete You know what we're doing is we're actually saying Go to a another line and we have to somehow store that in the computer So we actually use it's kind of a command. It's called the new line Command, and this is the same thing we see when we say hit tab that Space you see there that has to be stored in some way even though we're not seeing the text if I turn this off Even though we're not seeing anything. These are known as non printing characters non printing characters So something just kind of keeping the back of your head as we work a little bit now once I finished my block style business letter And I know it's very basic, but we go ahead and write out our What is this the Complementary closing, you know if you again read some of my emails that I respond back to you I say bests or bests of luck, or I hope that helps all I'm doing is just giving that kind of pleasant little our Conversation has ended go forth and prosper Same kind of things going on here, you know, we're sending out a bill just a little notice hurry up and pay it Otherwise, you know, I send people with brass knuckles to your doorstep and that sucks. So We'll start with just sincerely. Oh, sincerely comma again Now we're actually gonna do what's known as a quadruple space one two three four quadruple spacing is you hit enter four times But it's because the idea is I would print this out and sign it You know, I'd grab one of these guys. It's called a pen ladies and gentlemen. We use these, you know, not just They're not just from museums But I would sign this to show authenticity and the reason why is because I could put anyone's name here sincerely Bill Gates, you know Bill Gates is sending me a bill Okay, Bill Gates. Well, right underneath Bill Gates's name. I'm gonna go ahead and say I need to give him his Title, you know, I would probably want to know who it is because what if it's not Bill Gates? What if his name is John Claude Eisenhower Eisenhower Weird name. I don't know who John Claude Eisenhower is it seems Poorly named person. So who are you?  That's what that makes perfect sense. Now. That's why he's sending me this bill We'll go ahead and hit enter twice and I'm gonna put in enclosure Justice indicate that there is something in close here. Now one of the things your book talks about is we also throw in something like these guys these guys Those are known as typist initials from way back in the olden times when Rich people were so rich that they didn't even bother using their own computer and they had their receptionists type out their own letters. Well, guess what? This is the future everyone has hoverboards Type your own letters. So We take this and we've written it out now. I'm gonna go ahead and say alright looks pretty nice Good work everybody. So I want to save this I've got the little floppy diskette up here again from the olden times of how we saved files Or I can go into file and I have two options save or save as I like to do save as it's a Just kind of rule of thumb on my behalf I like to say save as because it gives me that control of what I'm looking for save You know the beginning doesn't do much difference, but save as They you see they do the same thing Typically I want to save to my computer So I would click on my computer and you can see I get all these recent folders I've been dealing with or I can select browse Now browse is gonna let me see sort of the internals of my computer and I can look around Now one of the things I like to do is I like to save to my desktop initially because that gives me that ability to Have ready access to it. So we'll go ahead and say We'll call this the bill and you know, I don't even need that docx. I can just call this bill and Word will actually put that in there. See that doc docx Save let's go ahead and close that a word Close under my email so you don't see that and look at that right there that guy Bill since I saved it to my desktop. There it is Now what would I do after I'm done with it? Well in my case what I would do is I would Come over here and I would put it in my documents after I'm done with it The reason why where you there you are Reason why is because I don't want to clutter up my desktop I mean look how much free space. I have readily available. I like that I'm a I'm a stickler for it. So I like to have a clean desktop Some little things to do


Hi, thanks for coming. I just want to get a quick gauge. I'm gonna do my test first. How many people here do TDD? How many people here do it successfully like really believe in it and really love it?  Okay, so what I would like at the end is for those same people to have their hands raised and say well At least I want to give it a try So With no further ado, I want to kind of get through these slides as fast as possible But I did want to do at least a quick intro of what TDD is The number one thing I think of when TDD is I think there's you don't write any code at all without a test first and The the next quick step who here is sort of a red green refactor There's there's something pretty important about this red green refactor There's there's a concept of the red bar you want you want to test to fail Which gives you that red bar and then you want it to pass which gives you the green and then you want to want a refactor Well, why is that refactor part important? Instead of saying test Sorry, red green refactor. I like to say red green refactor Give it a little bit of time because now it's green you can spend your time and make the code a little bit better TDD isn't just for unit testing It's used in For example, I just used it in this presentation. Hopefully the test passes at the end It's used in acceptance testing and And the other important piece here is that it I've been doing it for a little while and I still learn every day I've I've been on a team where I've helped mentor several people and they get it After some time, but even they are continually learning so it's not something that you're gonna learn in Three hours or something like that is something that you got to be you got to be sold on first And then you got to want to do it once you start doing it you start learning the the trade. I This is my own personal opinion. I don't think I this is one of the practices an agile one of the mini practices Which aren't easily reproducible. It takes practice So the sales pitch look ma no hands I Kind of want to go back to this other one for the sales pitch as well where you see the Pitcher of the guy. He's got that Kind of umbilical cord. He's got that cord right hanging off him and he knows that even though he's gonna fall he's got something to hold back on and That's kind of something I'd like to have you guys experience today So the things there have been several research papers several studies on TDD And it's pretty hard to talk about them all for the sales pitch So what I like to do is is that as far as I'm concerned I'm gonna kind of do a little selfish spin on this Why I as a developer would want to do TDD not why my manager wants to do it or why be good for the company Why is it me? So you might ask the question. Well, then what do I care about 50% reduction in bucks? Well, let's go over these really quick. So one thing that I found By looking at these these different Experience reports and whatnot is they all seem to talk about a reduction in bugs and While I say I'm trying to sell you individually. This is also nice for Executive level to say hey, this does maybe make make some sense and So the first two are bug density the last one which I like is Confidence This is what it's all about for me. I know that my code works I find that I do the acceptance level testing a little less When I when I'm writing my code because I know that it's already tested at the lower level So I don't for web application development. For example, I don't spend a lot of time Deploying the application and testing login and testing all these little perspectives. I do do that Don't get me wrong. I just don't spend near as much time on it because my unit tests tell me so Show of head. I kind of want to do a quick collab thing going on here. What is the cost of a bug? So I started out and I said well, these are some things that happens when a bug is found by QA So can anyone think of any more? There are several on here. In fact, I was recommended to take some off So that you guys could come up with some ideas So when a bug's a found you have to find the bugs to reproduce the bug test You have to find the steps to reproduce the bug, right? Then you have to yes Okay, that's good. Thank you. You actually got to the next slide Okay, so there's a there's that two or three things Three and so for the developer to acknowledge the bug is that just the developer looking at it or does it also sometimes need to get prioritized Oh, so he just got he just got in his queue and he's acknowledging it trying to build context How much time do you think that would take? 15 minutes. Okay, and then what was the other one? fixing it Okay, so I want to I want to skip fixing it because that's kind of a hard one Three minutes four years. I hopefully not four years, but a very long time to a very short time So what about what about in so resolve it going in and then two minutes. Okay, so far. That's a 12 minutes then Okay, so yes Okay, the bugs released could affect customer loyalty Thank you Yes QA has to validate the fix. How long does that? Pardon me They have to retest the code and do it again. So how long does that take? Just a quick number. That's all I'm interested in 10 15 minutes. Okay Okay, so that's right, so and how many people does that include? Six and so let's say that you're going over one bug Five minutes for each person in the room. So that's 30 minutes Okay, so now we're at about an hour and we haven't talked about finding the steps to reproduce the bug I know in many cases that could take 30 minutes an hour sometimes I found a bug now. How do I make it so development can consume this and reproduce it? So now we're looking at about an hour and a half there What about just Dev and QA sitting down and discussing it five minutes ten minutes Okay, are there any more? Yes Okay, good the argument where Dev cast blame so how much time do you think that's that costs? Half hour, let's so let's be modest and say a half hour so now we're about two hours and 20 minutes or something. Yes Okay Good so another 15 20 minutes So let's just cap it off and say about three hours is what a single bug cost and it depends For example, what if the customer found the bug? Now do you need it now? Do you need to include more people in that process? Does it need to get prioritized differently? and That this was brought up. What what if it introduces new problems in production? so Quick vote really quick. How long then do you think this all might add up to be what's a pretty modest? A amount of time that that bug costs without even fixing it six hours going once going twice Okay So what does this mean to me? Well, how many bugs are in your current project? Any any takers? 40 It's only one per line of code one per line of code So a reason yes, okay a thousand all right So now we go back to the numbers and say that there's between a 40 to 90 percent reduction in bugs So let's just take it. Let's just say 50 because that's I'm a simple person So that's you just reduced 500 bugs and we said about six hours. So six times five hundreds. How many hours? 3,000 hours So as a developer what that means to you is I get to spend more time coding Less time fixing bugs so I don't know what this duck's doing here, but I Like to do a demo on the Fibonacci sequence But I want to take a couple minutes and just explain what the Fibonacci sequence is Would anyone here like to explain it? Yes It's a series of which you take the first number and the second Okay, good, so it's like n minus one plus n minus two So if you're if you're looking at the Fibonacci sequence for five It would be five the fifth Fibonacci sequence for five minus one Which is four plus the Fibonacci sequence of five minus two, which is three Okay, good, and and there are the numbers up here. I have a cheat sheet which is Right here So I'm actually gonna I'm using IntelliJ and there's a couple things I want to demo I don't have a lot of time to talk about them specifically, but I'm gonna be using infinity tests Which is something that runs on the background while you build your code It just it's running the test in the background and it only tests the code It only runs tests for the code that's been changed Which is nice when you start getting many many tests and it's also nice thinking that I only need to run this one unit test When I changed this code and you find out there's actually lots of other unit tests that need to be run And to it saves time. So I'm gonna IntelliJ. I'm gonna create a project Just call it TDD demo Maven I'm gonna make it a Maven module So to start out I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna Because infinity test requires Java 1.5 for now. Hopefully that gets changed In the future. I have to switch that to 1.5 and then I'm gonna add infinity test as a module to the application So for unit testing the first thing I like to do Well, this is gonna I'm gonna write my test first, which is just gonna be well not really write it, but agileroutes.tdd and then notice I created my package in my test directory first Test package first. All right. So the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna create a little hookup test What's a good name for this class but say it has lots of algorithms? Okay, I'll call it algorithms. Thanks for the feedback So let me start up IntelliJ again really quickly I while I'm doing this. I kind of have a funny story This morning or last night before I went to bed. I saw that OS 10 had some updates to it and I thought to myself I probably don't want to do this because it might cause problems on my presentation tomorrow morning And so I woke up and I saw that it all restarted and I thought you know what? I need to test to make sure that my presentation is going to work. So I started it up and this very same thing happened and When I did that I found that sometimes I had to restart IntelliJ So another in this case test afterwards, but I thought of the test before I did the presentation at least So, um, I'm using J unit I'm just going to call this a hookup And I'm just going to fail the test And believe it or not failing means it worked. I am using maven. I kind of wanted to show some of you the the uh The benefits of fully working in your IDE. So I'm gonna I'm going to add um J unit as a maven module so now it can be built with maven as I'm running along as a dependency And here I'm just going to go ahead and and include the static import for fail and um The the infinity test should be running so now I can build it And you say I get a failure Yes, that means my tests are all hooked up my build works And I don't have to worry about all that now. I'm going to write my first test. Um What I'm going to do is when I do tests, I like to first test the exceptions. So Since there aren't any requirements on this I'm going to I'm going to make a new requirement And that is I'm not going to worry about negative numbers. Um So in order to do that I'm just going to simply look for a Illegal argument exception because I don't really want to create a new exception And I'm going to do a So what's the what's the first Fibonacci sequence? What's what's zero for Fibonacci? Okay, so sequence number Oops zero I'm ahead of myself algorithms dot Fibonacci I'm going to pass it zero All right, so now I have to worry about some things here. Yeah, go ahead and import my assert It uh, it says it's no it doesn't know about a class called algorithms. Let's go ahead and create that And now it says it doesn't know about a method Called Fibonacci. Let's go ahead and create that for now. I'm going to have it return an instance well Hopefully I don't have to explain that uh negative one. So now I'm checking what? The first one is zero. So we talked about red green refactor. So what am I doing here? I'm getting the red So let's build it uh Oh, whoops, sorry Wow, I'm way ahead of myself So I'm looking for negative one Please correct me when I'm going. I need your participation here So and and obviously the name probably isn't very good anymore. So Fibonacci Negatives So it does fail. It says it is expecting an illegal argument exception. It doesn't exist. So how do I make that pass? By throwing the exception. So what if I just do this? Will that make it pass? Okay Now I don't have to worry about that. It's running in the background. It'll just go ahead and pass. I hope But now to really do it. I should probably do if the num is less than what? Yeah, the that is supposed to be green If it weren't for the the wonderful hue of whatever the pink So num minus if num is less than Zero thank you then throw an exception. Otherwise I want to return You know what for now, I'm just going to leave this throwing an exception. I'm going to write a new test So what's another test I could write? Okay, so I'm just going to call this the first few So assert equals Um sequence So when I do my unit test, I really really like to put down the comment Of what it is I'm testing because after a while you start getting things the test fails And you're like, well, why did that fail and you got to go look at the code to figure out why it failed This little message tells you where it failed and why it failed. You don't have to go back and figure it out So I'm looking for zero algorithms Not Fibonacci of zero and that should return zero. Is it going to is it going to am I going to get a Well, maybe it's the same color bar no matter what Okay, it actually shows red. So maybe we'll say red and not red So it doesn't work the way expected. So I have to do a little bit of refactor here. I can't just return zero Right, so I now I need to do now do my check if by the way, there's no science behind this I could have done it completely differently. It doesn't matter in many cases In fact, the way I I practiced this a little bit before and I never did it this way This is the very first time I'm doing it this particular way Um, so we talked to you guys all answered the question check if it's less than less than numb Then I want to return I wanted the test to fail first To make sure that my test is valid. Does everybody understand that principle If you have a failing test and it shows red first And then it shows green how much more confident are you that the test actually does something correctly that is checking something Right versus if it's not red if you just write a test and it always passes Are you sure that that test is actually testing something? I have actually written tests that pass no matter what And I didn't find that out until I had a bug and I went to to say no that test shows that it works And then I went and fixed the back end and it didn't change It's still it still passes Okay, time to change the test when when is it going to fail here? Uh, so it's really important to get the red green Part of this here. Okay. So now it's red now. How do I make this pass in the shortest time possible? Return zero. Thank you All right, so now I'm going to introduce um, I'm kind of going to jump around a little bit What what's another problem with this particular algorithm? It's returning an int At what point might it blow up? When it returns an into that's larger than Pardon me the size of the integer the size of the integer Okay, so I'm going to still throw an illegal argument exception and except this time I'm going to I'm going to test something that's too big I happen to know uh That 47 Is larger than the max which is this So I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to write a test for that and therefore I still expect an illegal argument exception when I pass 47 Does that does that make sense to everybody? Any questions right now? silence Okay, so I got the failure. So now how do I change this to to make the test pass? I need your help Yes Okay, so I can say if num is uh greater than 46 Is that good well pass It'll oh it'll pass, but it's not good. Why is it not good? Thank you, jonathan. No negatives Is that descriptive enough? No um And our nor Nums wow if I could only type greater than 46 How's that jonathan? That's what I thought All right green bar at least it is over here All right, so now I'm going to introduce the next test What am I going to test first sequence? What's the first sequence or what's the sequence number one? One Now I'm introducing a code smell here or a test smell. What's the test smell? copy paste so Pardon me Okay, multiple search for a test Um the fact that I did copy paste here, which I'm going to fix in a minute But before I fix this refactor I want to make sure that my test actually passes So how do I make it pass? Can I say return num? Now I'll do a quick refactor here. Um So how do I change the sequence number zero? What do I need to do here? Key value sub what? So here I've got the Right here. I'm saying that the zero one I expect it to be zero And the sequence number one I expect to be one So I'm going to say that sequence key of key value equals key sub Of uh zero And this should be key sub key value sub One or two or zero One, thank you And that's for zero. So uh Make sure my test still pass after the refactor. Maybe get rid of this extra test Now I've got one assert Sorry, bad show anyways So now what do we need to test? It'll get more interesting in a second here The second one maybe sequence number two and what's it one? Failure, uh How do I make this pass? Returning num no no longer works. What do I need to do? I need to do a refactor here I I need to actually what? I need to actually do the sequence so There are different ways we could do the sequence. What's a good way? iterative or uh recursive Should we do a cursive? Okay, so if num equals zero then do what?  I just want to get this done Return Zero otherwise what? Well in this case, I'll have to worry about one Is that right and my test passes? I hope Okay, let's get to that point. That's good. So now now we can worry about the bigger numbers So I'm so good Method names. I'm going to call it bigger nums And now I just copied and paste which is another problem, do you think? So I'm going to use a little refactor here Create a method called a fib test test fib whatever Boom now Okay, so now I'm doing bigger numbers. So the bigger number would be three and what's the fibonacci of three? two, thank you If num is less than or equal to two then return one Is that going to work? Is that going to make it pass? otherwise return two okay We're going to be here all day. Thank you for that. So now let's go to the next uh Now let's go to the next number, which is four and what's the fibonacci sequence of four three? um, so so Now this this isn't really going to work anymore so, uh You'd brought up that we do what fibonacci of what? n minus one Can we can we just say plus one and will that pass? Little weary it passes Oh, thank you fibonacci of num minus two how confident are you that this test? Now that I did this refactor how confident are you that the test is still going to pass or fail? Or that if it passes how confident will you be in at least in the tests we've written so far that it still works? Raise the hands confidence level. That's not very many two people Okay It passes Huh now your confidence has gone up now how many people are confident that this works Thank you. Um, so but does anyone have any concerns about the algorithm that i'm doing here Let's let's put what what's what's five? What's the fibonacci of five again five? So confidence level did it go up a little bit? Uh, I'm going to say mine hasn't the the reason is is that I'm going to Five should be three zero zero one with yeah three is four five is five So, uh, does anyone know the the 42nd fibonacci sequence? There it is So if this passes how confident will you be that that we just came up with a good fibonacci sequence algorithm How many people would raise their hand if this passes that it's good? Okay That that's yellow still running Okay, so after some time it ran. Are you happy with the time that it takes to run it? No, well, let's just let's just throw another number in there just to make us really unhappy So while that's running I'm going to declare that this method that we came up with via tdd isn't the most efficient method We're using recursion recursion can have problems with memory and Slowness as we can see so I'm going to take a mathematical approach at this and Unfortunately, you're going to have to watch me for a minute. Not a lot of feedback on this one Okay, that would work Okay, thanks. Okay So, uh, what I'm going to do is I'm going to I'm going to create this little algorithm square root of five All divided by two that's five I'm going to comment this out Um, and then I'm going to return math dot floor math dot pow of five to the num and I'm going to divide that by the square root the five and Just add in the half just seems like a good thing. How many people are confident of this algorithm is going to work No one why not? Less code What's it going to take for you to get confident that this algorithm works? So let's say we didn't have any tests. How would you know that this algorithm worked? Okay, and even after that would you still be confident or would you still want to run math? You know software tests against that whether it's manual or whatever So so just for grins you saw how long that last one took. Oh look, it's already done and it passes So now how many people are confident that this algorithm works? You're still not confident There's some people that didn't raise their hand. I'm just wondering why they're not confident Too tired Um Yes Two large numbers 42 and 46 Okay Yeah, right here 42 and 46 So now you're more confident You could we could add more and you can gain confidence All right, so this this ends the demo um, how many people in here That originally raised their hands that came here for a little bit of Oomph that I want to try to do tdd. How many people in here are now more interested in doing tdd So that's about half of the people that originally said that they were interested So that's 50 success rate. Um, does anyone have any questions? Yes Yeah, sorry I My eyes don't work exactly right so I just wonder if you have to write a test before you can write any code After I had a test before you can write a test So so writing a test for the test But that but that test code isn't going into production And that and that test code is also very very simple of saying this is my expectation So so so what the test is saying is the test is saying This is what I expect the software to do Um, and therefore I'm going to write the software to behave as it would expect As you would expect it to happen. Does that answer it? Any other questions What about those people that didn't raise their hand who still aren't who still don't want to give tdd a try Do you have any questions or any any concerns? Yes So I'm actually not a developer I'm a joy manager and One of the things that has been difficult is getting a team of engineers who are not Have really never had any experience with tdd to to Build confidence in their own skills and to actually learn how to do it and do it well I don't think they have that. I mean as far as understanding that concept. It's really hard for them to grasp right? Yes So is there information that I can you know, give them that would kind of Help guide them So there's a This is something Kay knows that I happens to be dear to my heart Um, I have I've worked with this specific. I've mentored teams under this specific scenario Um, a few times and have been successful at at test infecting the whole team and um How that's done is by showing as much support as you can show and you'd asked about well, what type of training do I provide them? Um, I wish I should have prepared that and had a I have a blog post up that talks about how to convert a team over It's called test infecting a development team Oh, did you And um, so the the important thing is that there's users groups There there are you can bring people in um Which local companies here are doing I've helped in that And um, you can you can have them read books You can you can just have successes of I want everybody to try I heard of a certain organization that gave away monitors lcd monitors This is the time when there was a transition between the two gave away lcd monitors For the first was a 10 unit test or something So after somebody wrote a certain number of unit tests, they got their lcd monitor Um, so again, that's not necessarily tdd, but there's there's two hurdles to jump There's unit testing and there's tdd in my opinion. I think you should just go tdd Um, but in the middle of a project that's might be hard because stuff code's already been written It's already been written a certain way Which I think john's presentation after k's will be really good his his tutorial will be really good at that one Thank you


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