Good afternoon and warm welcome to Dr. Mustafa that is representing the government in Ramallah and also President Abbas. Dr. Mustafa is one of the key people in Ramallah, also background from the World Bank, also a well-known and unknowledged economists. We have also dealt with each other and collaborated before when I as Foreign Minister in Norway headed this AHLC ad hoc Liaison Committee. It is the longest surviving ad hoc Liaison Committee ever. It was created in Oslo in 92. So it's a long time Dr. Mustafa since there was in principle an agreement on the two-state solution. I know we're witnessing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We're seeing that this is continuing day by day. How to end this war and also how can the international community support when it comes to the humanitarian needs with children and also lack of medicine and housing in Gaza. Well thank you very much and appreciate the opportunity and thank you for the good work not only at WEF but also before that when we work together not only on the HLC but also in the reconstruction of Gaza effort in 2014. So unfortunately we have to do it again hopefully with better results this time around. The catastrophe and the humanitarian impact of this war is much bigger than 2014 unfortunately. We cannot avoid but feel very bad for the families and the people of Palestine for the repeated wars against them and I hope this time around will be the last time. I think the humanitarian effort is a priority and I think that war has to stop. I think the military action has got to stop very quickly. There's no need for anybody to build their political careers at the expense of more Palestinian people. So it's time to be bold. I think the international community all the stakeholders which we all appreciate have to move and move fast and boldly to stop this aggression. Unfortunately that devastation is huge. We have if not we are not careful maybe more people will be killed or die from hunger and famine than the war itself. So we do want to wait long to see that happening. I think the time to move is now and I think the first step is to do the basic things which is to bring in food, matrices, medicine, water, bring back the electricity to the people and I think that's not much to ask for. There's a big issue to bring in humanitarian assistance. Many good people in many good countries and many good institutions have tried to bring in some aid together in the last few weeks. Not enough have been allowed because of the scanning process that the Israeli forces consist on slowing the process significantly. That's not I'm not alone saying this. I think senator from the U.S. was able to reach Rafa a few weeks ago and saw that in his own eyes and said that the only reason aid is not getting into Gaza is the lengthy unnecessary scanning process by the Israeli government. So I think it's time to open Gaza for all assistance. Gaza has been a big prison all these years unfortunately. It's time to open up this prison. We have killed all the inmates in this prison more or less. It's time to open up the prison, get the people to move and freely and work peacefully and bring the assistance as soon as possible. Dr. Mustafa you mentioned that in 2014 there was also a war in Gaza and there was a big donor conference in Cairo where there was pledged billions of U.S. dollars and some of this was also invested then in Gaza to rebuild. I guess in this current situation if there is no political path, no clarity on what's going to happen in Gaza after the war there will be very limited amount of donors willing to rebuild again for the third time, things that have been built. So do you see any hope for a political process or do you think this will then continue like this when we meet in Davos next year? It is still the same that the humanitarian sufferings do continue and there is no political process. No you're absolutely right and I think we should learn from the lesson of 2014 and I think we should do better and we can do better. I think the political solution is a must now. I don't think one can avoid but see the facts and the facts are that military solutions will not solve the problem. Occupation cannot continue. No people will accept to be oppressed the way Palestinians have been impressed. So it's time to go to the root problem and the root problem is occupation. We need to end the Israeli occupation to the Palestinian, all Palestinians, not only in Gaza but also in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and allow Palestinians to build their own sovereign independent state. And we committed this before. We committed to this. We continue to commit ourselves to it. We committed through the peace process that started in Madrid in 1991. We committed ourselves through the Oslo process. We committed ourselves through the Arab peace initiative that the Saudi Arabia led since 1982 I think many years ago. We continue to commit ourselves to a peaceful process and I hope that this time around people will make an extra effort to do that. We hear good things about this issue from many quarters. And we are very pleased that the realization is increasing that this is the best way forward for all of us, not only for Palestinians but also for all the people in the region. We are very pleased also of the excellent and outstanding support we're getting from our Arab colleagues, Arab countries, our partners, especially Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia. And I think with their help we can move forward with a process. But I will take back the word process because we do want another process. We had processes before and the time is time for action. And the best way forward in this regard is start with defining the end game. One of the problems of the Oslo process that we started with an interim arrangement and we said within five years we will reach the permanent solution. We are 30 years later and we did not realize this permanent solution. So we do want this to be repeated. Let's start with the end game. Let's define what are we trying to achieve and work diligently together to reach that goal. We know that the situation in the West Bank and the cooperation between the PA but also with Israel is a different one that it was between Hamas and Israel. But what would you say, though, even if there is a political process that is led by the Arab countries establishing a two state solution, of course then in agreement with Israel based on the borders from 67 and the processes that have been underway. But then they will say what if we end up with Hamas also on the West Bank. Who can one in the two state solution guarantee that what happened the 7th of October cannot happen again. I guess that has to be a part of the of the peace process or the end game. We should avoid the process. Absolutely. Look, I mean Hamas took over Gaza as we all know in 2007. But this was unfortunately facilitated by the Israelis themselves. They have only themselves to blame for this. So in 2005, when the Israeli government decided to withdraw from Gaza, Sharon was the prime minister. And maybe pulled out of the Netanyahu pulled out of the government. Exactly. Then we told them that we will come back and withdraw from Gaza. But let's coordinate. Let's do it in a proper way so that the Palestinian government can take control of Gaza and ensure that whatever agreements we have will be applied, including the security arrangements. They refused to do that. They did that unilaterally. They would draw from Gaza, lift it without any coordination. And a year later, they allowed Hamas to come in, take over and made all the arrangements possible for them to grow. And now they admit publicly that they did that by possible and intentionally in order to undermine Palestinian statehood and PA ability to govern. So I think if Israel commit to enter into a serious process where the terms are clear and acceptable, we will reciprocate and promise Israel that we will do everything we can together to ensure that Palestine will be a safe place, a secure place, a prosperous place so that our people will live in dignity and therefore avoid any need for war or anything like that. So never as 7th of October again in that context. Absolutely. I think October 7th is unfortunate for everybody, but it's also a symptom of a bigger problem. And the symptom is that the Palestinian people have been suffering for 75 years nonstop and nobody would pay attention. Okay, that's history. But now in 1947, remember, there was the partition of Palestine. Palestinians didn't like that because it partitioned their country, their land into two nations into two countries. But we accepted that Israel was established in 1948. Palestine is still not until this day established as a sovereign independent state. I think it's time to correct the mistake. I think the international community has a responsibility, not only towards Gaza, not only towards West Bank, but also Palestine, and the Palestinian people, including those on diaspora, we have millions of Palestinians who live outside Palestine, who also have rights to return and live in peace in Palestine. So we hope that this time around there will be no excuses and that if the problem is not Palestinians, I assure you that until today with all the problems we faced over the last 30 years of nonperforming the Israeli side on the peace process, until today, we still believe that statehood for Palestinians is the way forward. So we hope that this time around we will be able to achieve that so that all people in the region can live in security and peace. If you look at the prospects for a two state solution today, yes, the Arab leaders, of course, we have the earlier Arab plan, peace plan, yeah, Arab peace plan. I guess your suggestion is that we can build on that moving forward to what the Arab countries are now saying is that they also feel that you should be a more regional involvement and that they will also have them to commit. If there is a two state solution, they will also recognize Israel, but doing so it has to be the establishment of Palestine in the West Bank and in Gaza and the security of Israel has to be guaranteed. Of course, also the security of the Palestinians. But if you look at the situation today also in Israel, do you think this is realistic? Well, I mean, realism is something subjective. It depends. I think it's a matter of what's the alternative. If the Israeli people and the Israeli government wants to see stable region, if they want to see safety and security for their own people, if they want to prosper and do well as they did in the past, I think that's the only available option for them is to help Palestinians actually build their own state so they can live, succeed, prosper and provide also security and safety for their neighbors. You know, we do want fighting forever. We're not helpless people. We're not crazy people. We're just humans. We want self determination. We want to succeed. We want to grow our children in good environment and good communities. That's all we need. So the Israelis, it's their choice. But I think this may be the best opportunity for them. I think the Palestinian leadership has always expressed their interest and extended their hand. As you correctly said, the Arabs made very generous, meaningful, realistic proposal in the Arab Peace Initiative. And I think now they're also putting, providing an additional layer of goodwill by again continue to extend their hand despite the lack of positive response from the Israeli side so far. Some governments in the region are saying publicly that they are willing to engage and integrate Israel as part of the region as long as they can, Israel can commit to an independent Palestinian state. I think the Arab parts, Arab governments included are serious about this. And I think this is the best opportunity for Israel to enter into this kind of process. And I think we'll be happy to see that happening. Secretary Blinken said that President Abbas was committed to reforming the Palestinian Authority to potentially reunite war-torn Gaza and the West Bank under its leadership. How do you envision this in the future? And what does it really entail concretely? Well, I think, I think we, the Palestinian Authority are facing significant challenges. Occupation is one of them. But there are also many other things. The fiscal situation is not great. The security situation caused by the settlers and the Israeli army and the rates they do every day are not helping anyone to perform well. Nevertheless, we want to give an excuse for anyone. But I think we can also, the Palestinian Authority can do better in terms of building better institutions, providing better governments so that we can unite our people in the next phase so that we can reunite Gaza and the West Bank and also prepare for reconstruction of Gaza. We don't want to leave Gaza without reconstruction. It's very important we do that. And also open up a clear pathway forward towards statehood. So President Abbas is committing himself, does that openly and believe that the best way forward for the Palestinian people is to reenergize all the resources, human, political, financial resources in order for all of us to take the big challenge that we are all facing. And I think that's possible. And I am encouraged also by the positive engagement from several countries in the region, but also globally with his approach and with his engagement. So we hope that we will proceed with that. But again, reform needs a conducive environment to do that. I do want to blame occupation for everything. But occupation is key. If we cannot remove occupation, no government, no reformed government, no reformed institutions can actually build a good, successful governing system or develop a proper economy. So we want to move on with this reform. But we do also like to see the political agenda move in parallel with that so we can provide hope for people. People in a Palestinian society would like to believe that the international community is serious this time around. We lost, unfortunately, the trust in the international system. Well, since this year's Wefts theme is rebuilding the trust, I think we should all aim at making 2024 as the year where the Palestinians rebuild the trust in the international system. Dr. Mustafa, when you say Palestinians, do you then mean the government in Ramallah, FATA and PLO? Or what you see, do you see any role for Hamas in this after the terror attacks, the 7th of October? Look, when I say Palestinians, I mean Palestinians. I'm a political person, and I think Palestinians include all parties, all individuals, all institutions. These are all Palestinians. The Palestinians have a system. Maybe it's imperfect. But as Churchill once said, democracy is imperfect, too. But what's the alternative? We will choose our leaders, we'll choose our leadership, we'll choose our parties in the best possible way. When we are giving the opportunity, we'll definitely do that. And therefore, I think the best way forward is to be as inclusive as possible. We have a political agenda. I mean, the PLO at least have a political agenda. I would like to see and unite all Palestinians around this agenda. And I think to the extent that anybody is interested to join forces under this umbrella, the PLO umbrella, under this agenda that's acceptable to the international community that will bring us hopefully peace and prosperity, everybody is welcome. When we meet in Davos in the year's time, maybe there's three scenarios for Gaza. Israel is still in Gaza. The second is that there's a solution where the government and the authorities in Ramallah will take responsibility as in the past. And maybe the third one will be a broader coalition on Gaza. I guess the third one will not be acceptable for Israel. Do you think what is most likely of the one on number two? Look, I mean, first of all, regardless of what happens, we are committed to bring the best possible outcome for our people, especially our people in Gaza. I mean, I think it's it's it's a bit risky to talk about anything political and anything beyond tomorrow or beyond next week, when still hundreds of thousands of people living live in hunger, live without any shelter, live without any medicine. It's hard to talk about all of this. But one could simply say that we would like to see Israelis leave Gaza as soon as possible. The earlier, the better. Killing, enough killing has been done already. More, the more they spend more time in Gaza, there will be more death. And that's not a good thing. Let's just keep it short. Let's get them out of Gaza as soon as possible. Now, I'm not naive to say that they're going to do that without proper arrangements. Let's talk about these arrangements as soon as possible. And as we said earlier, the solution is political. They have tried 400 days. I'm not a military expert, but ask any military expert, what did they achieve in these 100 days? I think they will say rather disappointing. So it's obvious the best way forward for all of us, including the Israelis, is statehood for Palestinians, peace for everybody, security for everybody. So the faster we can move to this, the better. So my expectation is that there will be enough wisdom in Israel. Maybe I'm optimistic. Maybe there's also enough realism in the world, and also enthusiasm in the region to move fast, hopefully in the coming few weeks, so they can put together a reasonable package that will provide the Israelis with the security they need, provide Gazans with the safety and humanitarian assistance they need, but also provide Palestinians with the statehood they need. So for me, this is the scenario. There's no other scenario. There are other things are details. And I think without going through this process so quickly, I think we'll all be failing. The best way forward, therefore, in my mind is the PA has been identified as the right entity to take over things when things are ready. And I think despite the talk about the readiness and lack of it, and I think we think we can collectively along with our partners in the region and in the international community to take up the challenge, improve the situation and prepare for peace. As an economist and also with your past in the World Bank, and I know you have done many assessment of what are the needs, not only on the humanitarian side, but on investments. But if you look at the situation in Gaza now, do we know at all what we're talking about, how many billions US dollars to restore? I guess if PA is going to get involved in Gaza, you also probably need guarantees from the international donor community, because you cannot administrate this if this continues like today. So we're in a very difficult situation. And Israelis are also in a complex situation, because if they stay, there will be limited resources to cover the humanitarian also situation, and it will be like a bleeding wound also in the years to come. And we have seen the polarization on both sides that can even escalate the whole Middle East situation more. Of course, we thought there was no escalation. And that was of course a good thing. But now we see the limited naval maneuver and maritime maneuver in the Red Sea. So all this is so interconnected. Correct. You're absolutely right. And I mean, the reconstruction effort is going to be huge. And the financial needs are significant. It's hard. I don't want to give numbers because I don't want to be quoted in this in early, early time. Can I be between the two of us, sir? I'll give you one example. I'll just give you one element of this. Just to give you an order of magnitude of how big the problem is. There's at least according to international reports, at least 350,000 housing units were either completely damaged or partially damaged. 350,000. Do a simple calculation. If you just want to build 150,000, not 350, assume that 200 will be repaired. 350,000 units. If you have an average cost of 100,000 units, $100,000 per unit, that's a 15 billion dollars of housing units. We still didn't talk about infrastructure. We didn't talk about the hospitals that were damaged. We didn't talk about the buildings, the grids, the electricity grids, water sanitation, clinics, hospitals, et cetera, et cetera. So the financial needs are huge. But again, as we said earlier, money will not solve Gaza's problem. It's going to take more than that. It's going to take a political solution, and it will take also a logistical revolution, if I can put it this way. The Economist magazine last issue called Gaza today a logistical nightmare. Because if you watch what's happening today, and how the humanitarian assistance is being handled, and how difficult for people just to get a drip of water or to get a food, some food from a truck that's coming, it's a disaster. It's scary. It's very sad. So even as we bring in things into Gaza, we need a proper system, well-managed system to handle the humanitarian effort. Without handling the humanitarian effort properly, we will all regret that we have not done enough to save the situation. So I will continue to focus on the humanitarian effort in the short term, in the medium term, but eventually we'll get to reconstruction, and we'll hopefully get the borders opened, and hopefully be able to go to a reconstruction conference like the one you and I worked on. And hopefully people will come in, but we will hopefully be able to commit to them that, yes, this time around, it's going to be the last time, and peace will come soon after that. A big thank you to Dr. Mustafa. Thank you.


Well, good evening. My name is Charles Simpson and this is Toward a Livable City. And I want to welcome Alan Mattson, who's board chair of Keep Burlington Telecom, and Megan Eplowood, who is on the board. And we're going to be talking about the future of Burlington Telecom. This is a very auspicious moment in the evolution of Burlington Telecom. It's going to be voted on by the City Council tonight. And they will be voting between two applicants. One is a multinational corporation based in Toronto, Canada. That's Ting Tukau's. And the other is a local cooperative effort called Keep Burlington Telecom Local, comprised of local members of a sort of a rump board which is waiting to take over if indeed the Council accepts their bid. So I wanted to kind of start off a little bit by noting the broader context of where cooperatives fit into the economy. And it's my position that they occur with has been market failure. So markets can fail because they don't see a profit in a certain area of business. For example, rural electrification or rural telecommunications. And it was actually quite recently that rural areas got electrification and got telephone contacts. And it really took an effort of the federal government, particularly during the New Deal, to bring electricity and to bring telephones to rural areas because they simply weren't a profitable market for private industry. The other big area is of course where markets fail. We know this in Burlington because the food retailers abandoned the city of Burlington. Fortunately there was waiting in the wings, the Onion River Co-op, which had been addressing such needs as treating workers well, offering organic food, offering food at a reasonable price. And so that co-op model was able to be expanded to move into the center of the city of Burlington from the old north end and has been thriving ever since. Of course just about to open a second branch down in the south end of Burlington and perhaps another branch up in the north end as well. So co-ops then come where the market has failed and we know markets do fail. They become monopolized, they're not subject to competitive pressures and so they don't respond to their constituents, to their clients. Just a couple of quick numbers here, there's over 30,000 co-ops. The USDA did a study along with the University of Wisconsin and found that they have more than three trillion in assets and half a trillion, half a trillion in annual revenue. And they pay over 25 million in wages. And if we add up revenue, wages and benefits, they generate $133.5 billion in value added to their communities. So this is as American as apple pie. And it's a tried and true way of addressing economic need. Now that doesn't mean that Keep Burlington Telecom is the best option but it certainly does mean that the co-op model is very American, it's very tried, it's very tested, it's been very successful. So to begin with, I'll ask our guests how they would define, what are the defining criteria of a cooperative as opposed to an equity entity? Sure. Megan, do you want to start or should I wait a little bit here at the start? I mean, I think that I'm going to begin by saying I think also there are opportunities for cooperatives often when you have a group of like-minded folk in business in different forms who may want to come in and not always in a pure failure. For example, Vermont State Employees Credit Union. The credit union world are also cooperatives. And there we had, I think, a large group of employees who realized that not only was it necessarily a failure but they could also bring their resources together to benefit their own group as opposed to working with an outside party and they see opportunities with that. And I think that producer co-ops like Cabot, very similar as well. I think there's, you know, buyers co-ops, some of the hardware stores, for example, have come together. And I think that what defines them all together, which was, I think your question, one becomes it's really a democratic control or democratic, one member, one vote, usually creating a board of directors who then hires the management to manage it. And that creates a governance level, which again is at a local or within the group sort of mentality. And I don't know, Megan, if you think about, have some other thoughts as to where you go. Why? Well, that's maintaining the equity within the community. You know, a private corporation is formed around private ownership in order to, at a local level, you know, you could keep it local, but once it grows and starts to make a lot of profits, you know, generally there's a natural evolution where ownership is sold to other ownership and then ultimately, if it goes public, of course, which is what we have with two cows, we have shareholders that are investing in it essentially for a rate of return. So the co-op is the ultimate model of keeping equity local. And I don't imagine that you can look forward to golden parachutes as if you ever leave the board, if you take over, why is that? Yeah, we have a volunteer board. Volunteer board. And as a result, and we have an elected board, as Alan mentioned. And so, in the case of Keep BT Local right now, as you said, we have an acquisition board.  And we've kept it that way for a lot of reasons. It's been an effective board with some great skill represented by the different members of the board. But when we hopefully acquire Brilliant telecom, we would change the board through elections to add more skills. So the fact that you're not paid and you are volunteers would suggest that you're motivated by a vision of community and you're not taking money off the table that could go to build a company and could go to consumer benefits, one more thing. I know several of you, or board members, have had a... Line one. Line one? Okay, well, we are taking calls. Our number is 862-3966, but we'll take our first call. Hello, you're on the air. Just one question. I have nothing against the telecom concept. And you mentioned... Or not telecom concept, I'm sorry. The co-op concept. You mentioned city market and how successful it was. But you also failed to mention that the city of Burlington propped up city market at the beginning. And a lot of those facts and details are hidden. We don't know if taxpayer money was used to prop up city market. Nobody has that information. That's all hidden somewhere. We never found that out. But the only way that city market made it was by Burlington propping it up. Well, the same thing has to happen if the co-op people take over Burlington telecom. Well, thank you. Let's play with that question. So, you know, to respond to, I think, the caller's initial concern about city market, I certainly can't speak. I mean, I have been on the board of city market. I came in after the store went downtown. But I really don't know exactly where the propping up would have been. There was an open process about what, you know, the city would expect back in return from city market. And what I've understood over the years is actually that city market has returned to the city beyond what the original agreement was. You know, and I think that, so I can't get too deep. I don't know really what to say more about that. But I think something key in what we're doing here is that if we succeed, this will be a cooperative that is not owned by the city government. There won't be additional taxpayer liability at all for what we're doing. We will be literally a cooperative, which is a type of corporation that is separate from the city. And we will have no arrangement other than the city has the option whether or not they want to keep an equity stake in our enterprise. But other than that, we will have no further, the city will have no further potential claim or no further obligation once they close the sale. And of course you're not a non-profit. So it's interesting, cooperatives are really managed in a fashion such that the, let's call it the profit or the excess, instead of being returned to shareholders is within the cooperative either, you know, mostly in our case will be reinvested in additional capital. Basically updating equipment, making sure that we build out the rest of Burlington as a key focus as well as have the potential if the business case makes sense to extend the service range for Burlington, you know, Burlington Telecom beyond the borders and become much more than just Burlington Telecom but really become a more regional player. But that needs to of course pass, you know, business hurdles. And the, you know, the idea that we are not for profit, we do reinvest everything or the potential could be for patronage refunds in our situation that would be down the road because it's important that we invest first at this point. But it does, you know, it does not mean that we're not a highly competitive, you know, industry, business in a highly competitive industry. And that's the way we work.  We are there to really extend the service and build the tech economy within Burlington in the area. Yeah, absolutely. I think that we feel very strongly that a cooperative can be a highly competitive business. It can be an innovative business. And one of the interesting strengths of our particular community is how many innovators we have. I think it's one of the most innovative communities that I have ever lived in. I've been here 17 years and I'm continually amazed at the number of people that have talent and innovation to bring to the table. So I don't believe we need to outsource that, right? It's better to keep our ideas local, use local governance, invest our own ideas, bring together tech leaders, for example, which was what we've been working on in order to get them behind not only how we manage and run it, but also how we may ultimately invest in the tech economy. So all of those things come together in a great innovative package. I think everybody, including the city government, agree that the future of Burlington is based on small entrepreneurship, on innovation, on new corporations often tied to broadband access, cheap, efficient telecommunications. And I know that this has been an objective of Burlington telecom as long as it's been municipally owned. And I read from your perspective that that will be, you'll continue to do that. Is there any way you can differentiate your investment or your mission in terms of growing a local economy from that of Ting to cows? Yeah, I've been researching that because what we see, of course, is that investment can come in different forms. It can be in kind. It can be giving advertising to nonprofits. This is good. But what we see is that we can work with our local leadership to actually devise how we invest. Just because we are local, we know who the local players are. For example, the Burlington Tech Center. This is where we need to train youth for the future of our tech economy. You always need a lot of new people. Every tech business in this community needs well-trained workers. And so our cooperative is not just about making sure everyone's connected. It's also about making sure that we can invest in youth, for example, the Tech Center and innovative business. So we're hardwired into this community. We're not just coming in with a few small investments. Now a number of people have brought up the sort of the issue of the city already having put $16.9 million into what appeared at that point to be a black hole that the Burlington Telecom was struggling. And perhaps this relates to the caller's question, which is what's the appropriate role of city government in terms of supporting a broad effort at stimulating the local economy?  Now Burlington Telecom is very successful. I heard the leader of that organization say that they have increased their number of subscribers by 37% over one year. So this is a phenomenal growth rate. So I guess my question is we know that private equity entities want to continue to grow to increase their cash flow, but how would you reach every subscriber or how would you make every taxpayer a potential subscriber in the city of Burlington? Because I think that's what they want the option for in return for the tax money that they realize has already been invested. Yeah, I think we couldn't agree more. The city right now is approximately 80% passed by Burlington Telecom up until the point that they ran into default with Citibank, they had been building out and at that point I think they had to scale back and step back from that. The first thing I'd say is that for the 80% of folks who are passed by Burlington Telecom within that group everyone has the opportunity if we end up being successful to become a member owner and to use the service. We think with the fiber being what is what's passing the residents and the businesses in town that it provides a superior service to the alternatives and I think that we should be really working to provide the level of service and product that people are looking for so that more people again would begin to take that option. Again within that 80% even if folks don't take the option of a competitive service from Burlington Telecom they should be benefitting from the fact that the competition has been financed by the citizens of Burlington through the prices that they're paying with some of the other providers. And then with the other 20% that aren't currently passed I think that we have that as a strategic goal that is at the highest level for us to pass those other 20% and I think that Burlington Telecom as it exists right now has that same set of goals. They have a strategic plan that hits almost all the rest of the city with fiber within the next three to five years. A build out plan that is well thought out and has been developed at a time when they've had this growth that you mentioned Charles so that they're now in a position where they can fund that kind of investment and as that builds out the rest of the city will have that opportunity and I think that given the local control and the local management, I mean so the local hiring and local governance I think that that will continue to be a strategic goal of keeping all of the revenue that can be reinvested being reinvested into the community in particular and going further beyond Burlington after that but I think that's how we get to reaching everybody and that's what some of the benefits are from people either opting to use Burlington Telecom or certainly having it as a competitive provider. Yeah, just to say BT's goals now are to reach 16,000 subscribers. That's a lot of subscribers. It's a pretty large percentage. It would be more than double where they are now just about 72 to 7,500. We certainly hope to achieve that if we were owners and that would help to alleviate some of the concerns that not a majority of the city would be part of this. So we can't look at it just at where we are now in this discussion. That's at 7,000 subscribers roughly now. We have to project out and take a look at what that would look like in the future and if we achieve 16,000 subscribers we would be covering a great majority of the city and benefiting them as a result. And of course you are now servicing the municipality itself and the school district. So those are major assuming that the rates are attractive to those entities. That's a benefit that goes to every taxpayer. Yeah, I think right now every municipality or city have to make some form of competitive bidding for their services and that's required on a regular basis and they can't just say we're going to go with Burlington Telecom because they're in town and local. But I know the schools just went through a bidding process and took on all the services that they can provide to the schools so they are already providing competitive pricing for the schools. And I think the city has certainly a contract with Burlington Telecom and is looking to extend that right now. We expect that that would be part of the overall transaction and I think that my understanding is that Burlington Telecom and the city are really looking to create a contract that looks like a partnership between the two and so that will be for anyone who comes in but it's going to be something that is a focus for the telecom because the city government, my guess is probably the largest client for Burlington Telecom. How about the hospitals? At this point UVM Medical Center is not a client of Burlington Telecom from what I understand. I think that would be a great opportunity I think that I've seen that the city has really worked closely in discussions with the hospitals but I don't know that they've gotten really to the point of having any service and again, the university itself is interesting. They're almost their own cable and not cable but ISP so their own internet and fiber provider because they host a part of the internet called Internet2 which provides academic services so the universities, while probably the university itself will probably not end up being served by Burlington Telecom in too many scenarios, they could really partner well because they have their students distributed across the city and I think if there was a good partnership in the fiber backbone for the students and perhaps some satellite offices, both the university and the hospitals could are real potential clients to come in. I've seen certainly ads that BT has put in the paper to attract students to get them to sign up. We're in a public television studio here and public television is supported by cable companies and how would BT give us support if I could do some special pleading here? That's fine. We have been following that closely for years of course. I come from a family that supports this kind of work on a daily basis and the understanding is that if we were to acquire Burlington Telecom that we would continue to support all of the public educational and governmental access groups and help perhaps, I mean again these would come down to the decisions of new boards but the idea would be as cable continues to decline that would mean that facilities just like this would be potentially having to fight more and more for their revenue and as a board we see that that's something we don't want to see happen and that we want to support these vital facilities for our community. We have a phone call so let's take that. Hello, you're in the air. Yes, thanks for taking my second call. I've got away from the feedback on the TV now and maybe I can actually hear what I'm trying to say. My second question is what is the status of the loan that the keep BTL local people will need? Is it 8% now? Is it 14%? Is it 12%? And where have we landed at this point for the final proposal? The final loan is going to be the same loan that we've had in place through our entire proposal period. We had worked and we had gotten to an understanding that we thought we could put in place a loan that had a lower fixed rate of 8% and then had incentive payments based on the value of Burlington Telecom going forward. But as we worked on that transaction with Maine Fiber, our strategic financing partner, we really only got to a situation where while it was sort of structured like that, it really was going to be a 14% loan in almost all circumstances and our approach is we're trying to make our proposal as straightforward as possible and unfortunately we weren't able to achieve that and so we have the same proposal we've had all summer which is in our, we have the commitment letters and the letters of understanding and letter of agreement and term sheets and everything in place. We just said, you know, this proposal is really the same as what's already in existence, we shouldn't change it. So that's where we are. You talked about it as a bridge loan in some of your literature. So what that would mean is we structured it while it's a 10-year payback loan. We structured it with Maine Fiber. We said, you know, we're an acquisition group. You're pricing us like an acquisition group, not necessarily, you know, it's like a homeowner and a car owner, you pay different rates for different types of purchases that you make and acquisition financing is, you know, at best difficult to come across and work with and finding a strategic partner who was putting up capital for us was very powerful but we also have said to them, you know, we understand this expense and if we have a couple years of operating experience behind us, our interest rate should, you know, fall off a cliff at that point and we want to refinance. And so we have the ability, after year three, to prepay the loan and, you know, that's if we are, you know, not even getting close, Megan, to the 16,000, you know, line that would take us there but just if we're really, you know, managing the company and maintaining the business in Burlington, we would have the ability to refinance a loan basically at year three and Main Fiber, while they would like to be invested in this for 10 years, understand our position and have agreed to that. So that's where the term bridge comes in. So without penalties or? Yeah, at that point it would be, you know, straight 14% payoff and, you know, we would, for three years and we would move on and they might move on as well, although one thing about Main Fiber is that we had a lot of expertise in building out Fiber networks and that's another reason that we have them as a strategic partner. I think they well understand how to build out Fiber and that expansion expertise, along with understanding the value of expansion was going to, and we'll make them a true valued partner as we go deeper into Burlington as well as beyond for expertise and financing. That's a color for that question. Let me ask one more hard question, taking the role of Mayor Weinberger, who at his October 10th press conference indicated that your proposal, should it be accepted, would not get through the Public Utilities Board and that it just would not measure up. Can you respond to that? Well, we've carefully investigated all aspects of that concern as part of the Vice Chair's part. Andy Matrol, our Vice Chair, is a very expert telecom lawyer. We've also spoken to other experts who work very closely with PUC and the criteria for PUC really would not in any way exclude our bid, especially if we were to become owners of an act, which we would be in this case, a telecom, which is a highly valued asset in our community that is operating very well at this point. So under the criteria of ownership and responsibility for an existing entity, it's our understanding that this would not be a problem. And I think there's two key variables that I think the Mayor touched upon at that point. One was potential management, how would they look at management, and the second one I think was related to financing with the modeling and the pro forma work we've done, which is far more conservative than even the strategic plan put forward by Burlington Telecom, our financing works at these levels and we think that would be a fairly straightforward discussion to have with the PUC. And on the management front, I think one thing that some folks need to, or have maybe not been putting quite the correct understanding on, and Megan touched upon, this is an operating entity that has a strong management team that has recently received its additional certificates of public good in the past year, and so it's well understood, the business is well understood by the PUC, and our view is that we want to keep as much of the existing management place in place as possible, and we've built that into our modeling to do that. It's a good closer. I've just been indicated that we have run out of time. We could talk a lot more, but this is wonderful and I hope our... Charles, thank you. Thank our guests, thank our caller, and hope you all come to the City Council meeting tonight. I think we're off. Thank you, Charles. Thank you. Bye. Hey, thank you.


Hello everyone, welcome to another Narc Survivor Live video. I'm just out here at this park and with this really nice lake behind me. Just noticed there's a fountain over there as well. As many of you know, I do love fountains. So yeah, let's get straight into this topic we are talking about is the narcissist happy with their new supply? And yeah, I mean if you ask them of course they're gonna tell you that they're happy without you but they're in a much better situation that they've moved on they don't need you anymore yeah, of course they're gonna tell you that and they will try to conceal what is really happening they will try to hide that from you but it really is an illusion it's very different to how you think it is everything looks better on the outside like when you look at people's relationships on social media they look so much better than they actually are in real life and Dr Ramani said before the better a relationship looks on social media the more dysfunctional it is in real life so that should tell you everything you need to know it isn't real but yes they do get an adrenaline rush in the beginning from meeting someone new but it's not the same kind of happiness that we experience but maybe in their minds that's their idea of happiness but even then it doesn't last long it's only a matter of time until they begin to devalue them and then before you know it here they come running back to you they're hoovering you they're trying to come back to you again and that's how you know that it isn't real it's temporary it's fake just as it was with you it's just escapism it's a distraction from the unpleasant reality it's self-medication and sometimes it can be like a drug to them where they get addicted to the highs and lows just as we do they get trauma bonded too yeah to answer the question is the narcissist happy with their new supply? it really depends on what you define as happiness if we're looking at it from what we would agree on as our definition of happiness then no, they're not happy but if it's their version of it based on what they think happiness is then yes, they are happy at least in that moment but their emotions are very shallow as well they could be having the best day of their lives and then suddenly one little thing goes wrong and they get mad they blow up I'm sure you remember that from your relationship with them they were always angry about something it's like you couldn't do anything right even if you planned out everything perfectly they always found something wrong with it they have these insatiable desires that can never be fulfilled if they couldn't be happy with you after everything you did for them how could they be happy with someone else people aren't going to be willing to do what you did for them most people aren't going to tolerate all of that abuse so yeah, even if we base it on their version of happiness it doesn't last long it's just temporary relief and then they just go back to normal that's how they normally feel I mean you've only got to look back at your own relationship with them because that will tell you what you need to know about how things are going with them and their new supply because nothing changes as I said before it's a cycle you've got the love-bombing, the devaluation and the discard so they love-bomb you in the beginning and then it makes you want to reciprocate it makes you want to call them and praise them and make them feel good which is their idea of happiness but then before you know it you've got the devaluation and the discard and then it's all over but then before you know it they're idealizing someone else they think they found a better situation they think the grass is greener on the other side they found their bigger better deal their next shiny new toy but then it's only a matter of time until the same thing happens again just never ends and the reason why it never ends is because they're too busy pointing the finger at everyone else instead of taking accountability and realizing that they are the cause of their own problems but they never do that because they're very lazy they don't want to do the work and they don't like being vulnerable they don't like to look at themselves and question if they're doing something wrong because then that means they have to deal with the shame of making a fault or mistake and then they have to deal with the consequences and if there are two things that narcissists do not want to do those are it but that's really it I mean how can someone be happy when they're lying to themselves when they refuse to take accountability for where they find themselves when they blame everyone how can someone like that ever be happy they can't just as they lie to themselves with you they're gonna lie to themselves or someone else so it's all fake it's a fantasy so yeah in my opinion they never experience the true depths of happiness that we can but it's their idea of happiness which just all revolves around themselves it's got nothing to do with connecting to someone because they don't want to be vulnerable it's very painful for them so it's nothing to do with that got this car for just two or three more days BMW M4 it's a great car very fast and Nala is in here today as well here she is alright that's all I've got to say for this video I'd just like to thank you all for joining me and if you would like to support our community please give this video a thumbs up right now down below again thank you all and you all have a great day