Thank you all for coming and we are about to start day two of this training session organized by Globernance with kind support of this institution, Santomo Museum for which we are all grateful. We are late, obviously, so we'll try to run as quickly as possible. The focus of this session should be on the role of the states and on the standards of care that would be expected from business. So it's a very broadly focused theme. So what we would like to do is to first have a presentation by Mikhail Mansisi about the developments at the UN level that basically are setting a conceptual framework for this discussion. And then I will speak with Niego Garte about the perspectives from, let's say, a local level from this region. Basically looking at this through the eyes of a small and medium enterprises. What does it mean, actually, for entrepreneurs, for startups and for basically all of us? But before we get to that, allow me to do a short introduction of my perspectives on this issue and my perspectives on why we are having this discussion and why it is relevant to have this discussion equally in Geneva and in San Sebastian or Donostia. So actually the reason why we are having this discussion is very simple. It's the globalization. Forty-fifty years ago the business has been conducted in a very different way. Most of the business was conducted locally. There were a couple of big national companies that were let's say in close relationship with the state. But for most of us, for most of our ancestors, the generation before us, it was simply irrelevant what was and for their business, the businesses they worked in or that they have been managing. It was irrelevant what was happening in different countries simply because that was the way the economy operated. But in just one generation we have moved from this model to a very different model. And the challenge is how we can reconnect the business as it is being conducted right now with the values that we share and the values that have been basically naturally embedded in business 40 or 50 years ago, at least at the local level. So as I said, there will be two perspectives that we will try to connect. First is this let's say top-down perspective, this setting of a conceptual framework for business and human rights, which is done at the intergovernmental level and at the UN level. And secondly, the perspective and the second perspective is the perspective from below perspective of small and medium enterprises that are suddenly finding themselves challenged by this new situation. And I guess that's my introduction, I don't need to say more. So let me introduce Mikhail Mansisidor who's the independent expert with UN, but until very recently has been a director of a Basque branch of the UNESCO. He's the member of the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and if there's anything else you would like to add about your qualifications. Okay, so let's start with your presentation. Thank you very much. I have to apologize, I am recovering from a very serious flu. I have been passing through this week. I was not able to prepare a presentation as neat or as well done as you of course deserve, but I can assure that given the circumstances I did my best to be here in front of you. I'm still under the effects of the medication and the antibiotics and the paracetamol and so on, so I apologize for any failure I can commit. Thank you. I prepared, I have this very short presentation in three points. First, the presentation is about corporate sector activities and state obligations under human rights treaties. In general and in particular in the treaty I am expert on the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. This Covenant, there is a committee that I'm a member of this committee, the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. I want to present the short speech in three steps, in three parts. First, I want to explain or I want to present very shortly how the committee has dealing with the issue of corporate activities vis-à-vis the obligation of the content of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and we have a deal with this issue in many issues or by many means or many documents and we need to explain or we need to know which are those different documents, the difference between an open letter and a statement and general comment or a concluding observation. We have present general comments and statements and concluding observations regarding issues of corporate activities and we need to understand the difference between those documents. Then we will have enough information to focus directly with the question, are we talking about just declaration, about just resolution, recommendation or are we talking about real existing binding international law? What are the differences between the obligation by these states and the obligation if any of other actors and then last point with particular issues very important in our case, in the case of the International Covenant on Economic, and Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Okay, the comment here on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights is the body of 18 independent experts that monitor implementation of the International Covenant by its states party now as you probably well know the Covenant was signed in 1966 and entered in power in 1976 and now there are 163 states that are party of this Covenant, of course including Spain and all of the European countries. The states had the obligation to present periodically report regarding its fulfillment of its obligation, this is the report system, it's a five-year the state present its report before or from the committee and we analyze the report and we finish this dialogue with the state with the publication of a document named concluding observation. So this concluding observation are made by for each country, one document named concluding observation for each period for each country. Here you have for example the concluding observation for Spain 2012. There have been many many not many but several concluding observation in which we have included content regarding this issue of corporate sector activities. I remember last year for example Norway and Belgium probably more but I remember clearly the cases of Norway and Belgium last year. But we don't only publish documents regarding or focusing the particular situation of the states or particular states, we also publish general documents. From less to more importance open letter and statement our open letter are very circumstantial position on whatever that important for the for the committee. For example the position of the committee in the international day of I don't know the fight against the AIDS for example. In that case the committee publish an open letter underlining the importance of the fight or the fighting against AIDS and the human rights and etc etc. More important more grounded more than are the statement and the more the most important document are the general comment that is the official position of the committee is the authoritative interpretation by the committee of the obligation is ruined in the in the in the covenant. Well we have not a general comment at the moment on the issue of corporate sector activities but we do have a statement about this this issue is yes this is this one you have here in the picture statement on the obligation of state parties regarding the corporate sector on economic social and cultural rights as you can see just in the title we are talking about the state obligation the obligation of the states party regarding the corporate activity but we are not dealing directly here with the obligation of the corporate sector of the firms of the enterprises or whatever. I have said that that we have not general comment any general comment we are working in a general comment on this particular issue probably it will be published next year it will be approved next year but we are working on it now. So I have said that we have not still general comment regarding this particular issue but we have a few general comments on other issues that that had a slight comment on the issue of corporate corporate activities. For example the general comment number 18 on the right to work it's clear that the right to work is a case in which the corporate sector activities is the sort of the highest importance it's obvious and even in this case in paragraph 52 we have to underline to stress the idea that I am going to read if you allow me to do it. While only states are parties to the Covenant and are thus ultimately accountable for a compliance with it all members of society have responsibilities regarding the realization of the right to work. So here is clearly the very clear the difference between the duty viewers of regarding the Covenant and the United Nations and the Committee, the duty viewers that are only the states and those having responsibilities that are other actors of course private sector. The state parties should provide an environment facilitation that is charged of this obligation. The state parties are responsible for the fulfillment of these responsibilities by the corporate sector or the private sector. Well particular issues that are very important for us and they are issues that we are working now when we are working for the next general comment on corporate sector activities. First is the relation the link the nexus between the state and the business. Do you know that more and more in the modern society there are very great situations where established this reasonable link between the property and the enterprise where is the real headquarters of an enterprise is not always so particularly or as obvious as the shareable. So this is a very important point for us and especially when related with the next point when related to the local or extraterritorial activities of this particular enterprise. Of course we said that the state is always responsible for every branch for every violation of those human rights in its own territory. But we have the question of the problem it's always responsible for the activities of their enterprise in abroad in other countries. The answer to this question is clearly yes the difficult question the difficult point here is to establish how could you could you create this link between the state obligation and the private activities. The first the first case we start to deal with these problems of extraterritorial activities of private enterprise and the possible negative effects that these activities could have in the enjoyment of economic social and cultural rights abroad was in the case of sovereign wealth funds and this was for us the first case because it was easier for us to establish this obvious link in this case between the enterprise even being formally juridically private but it was state owned so the link between the state and the state responsibility was pretty clear. We start several years ago with Norway and their sovereign wealth funds with a very important investment in Central America was the first case. But we have continued with this with this work and now we are asking for responsibilities to a state in which the the headquarters of any enterprise is in. The last last year I remember the case of Belgium and we ask very special or we demand for very special responsibilities of Belgium for extraterritorial activities of enterprise with its headquarters in in Brussels. This is activities of this enterprise in in fast Asia. I don't remember which country which was the country but what I can say with sure is that there was an enterprise Belgium enterprise with headquarters in in in Brussels and I have to say that even being a bit bold for our part to ask for responsibilities to the state vis-a-vis extraterritorial activities of their enterprises because we are not dealing with any our legal basis it's not any declaration any recommendation but united declaration any declaration any resolution any global compact any any political document our legal basis is the is the covenant it's a very classical document of international law it's a classical treaty and the state obligation is very clear where the the Vienna convention and so on. So we have to be very very clear about that but I have to say that the states have admitted the capacity of the committee for for demanding them about this this this issue which is for for us very very important and I am thinking I agree with you that this kind of activities been impossible 10 15 years ago and now are are possible the things are changing and we in the community are living this an experience or part of this of this change and we are now asking or demanding the stage for the responsibility for extraterritorial activities of of private companies we are dealing in the committee with the with economic social and cultural rights and for this and for this reason there are several sectors that are of that are of a special importance for us you have here water if we have a human right to water and sanitation water or housing or health or or food or job obviously or or even education and more and more are are service services or rights provided by many cases for for enterprise so are sectors of the special importance for for us what kind of tools do the the states have to to deal with this issue to control these activities obviously legislative issues but not only we are demanding the states even for the judicial decision for financial the tools for politics for a broad number of the different tools and finally remedies that is what we are talking about here what kind of remedies do the those affected have in case of violation of these human rights first the the most classical most evident is the domestic level remedies judicial domestic remedies second we demand the state for possibilities of demanding abroad in the example we have we have seen previously of these activities of the New York enterprise in Central America do the victims in Guatemala had any possibility to to demand in the domestic system in Norway we demand the state to to to have these possibilities of being demanded in their own system by foreigners and last one is international remedies that are very new but still are existing almost for a few countries probably you know that the all the demanded additional protocol on our covenant or my covenant on economic social and cultural rights right entering into force the last year not two years ago in May 2012 well one year around three years ago and that new protocol for the time being there are only 18 states being a party of this protocol included in Europe included including Spain Portugal Belgium and I don't know if I don't know I don't think anyone more but in any case Portugal Belgium and Spain is clear that there are party of this covenant for the first time in the history of the human rights system on the universal system of the human rights protection this additional protocol gives us the possibility of presenting individual communication before the an international body I guess the international committee on economic social and cultural rights we have received the time being just four cases and any of them has anything to to to to to to deal with this with this issue of corporate sector but in theory it's of course possible to present individual communication that are individual denounces for cases of of the violation of human rights because of corporate activities local or even for extraterritorial activities this is a very new and very important mechanism that we we don't know what kind of of of reality is going to to to bring to to us but it's an open door that in the next year we are going to to see how it it works so for my part this is a very short but I think that general and hopefully clear view of the situation of this particular problem of corporate sector activities and state obligation under human rights treaties with a with a view on our case in the committee of economic social and cultural rights and thank you very much and I'm open to your consideration thank you thank you Mikhail I think that the main takeaway here excuse me is that the covenant in the covenant we can see a clear distinction between the state duties to ensure protection of certain rights incorporate responsibilities where the state is responsible to make sure that corporations are actually acting in line with with the with the rights recognized in the in the covenant which is basically in line with with what's written in the United Nations guiding principles of course there will be probably some fringe areas where we can argue that that the international law may impose some direct responsibilities on corporations but the basic principle is is as you as you described it so the other point that I have noted is that in your work in the committee you are increasingly recognizing that the obligation of the of the state expands to the extraterritorial dimension and so we can expect that this development will continue it starts with the state on enterprises and as you gave the example of the sovereign wealth fund I assume in Norway but we can probably expect to see this see this going beyond state owned enterprises and the the last point that I have noted which I think is is relevant for our discussion in particular is that all of this is connected to the need of providing remedies at the local level at the domestic level but increasingly at the international level as well so this is probably what we can see in in the future now I don't want to yet open open open the floor for for discussion but if you have any questions for qualification from Mikhail now is the time otherwise we'll move to to the next block everything's clear is there anything you want to add I don't think that you need to but in case you would you disagree with anything that I just said no perhaps just to add that I am member also of the working group on individual communication so I am especially interested in having a chat with any of you about the possibilities of present and individual communication of this in a case with with these characteristics so let's move to the to the next part in this in this session to my left is Injego Ugarte who's having a very interesting carrier multi-pronged carrier being a consultant in let's say human resource management at the same time working working with a group of engineers in a startup company developing device to create artificial ways yeah it's called the garden wave garden it's fascinating yeah and very I would say um not typical because it's the first product of its kind in the world if I understand it correctly but it's I would say almost uh I have to say the English actually I'm not surprised it comes from from this area because this is known for for surfing yeah yeah that is more known in Australia or California and so on but here we have an engineer that that have that idea 10 years ago and start developing and what we enter there like investors like now they call business angels and we are seven years developing the product and now it's in the market and you get MBA as well you get the business education as well so the question that I have for you is how does all of this all of this discussion on business and human rights is becoming relevant for companies that you work with and for your own company how does business and human rights is entering the world of small and medium enterprises and how do they see it because I understand that for most of local businesses what we have just discussed with Micael is incomprehensible it's something what they don't really know what it what it is about okay so okay so let me explain I was asking to repeat so that you can repeat what you just said because from here at least the two of us we couldn't get the kind of services you are giving to the market it was incomprehensible so if you could speak to us okay and into the microphone that would be really great thank you so so so Inigo please introduce yourself again and then if you can continue as Philip says Philip says well I'm a psychologist with MBA and I start my job experience in consultancy related to human resources I travel a lot with bus country companies giving them services from the recruiting defining the procedures in the human resources there in different countries like China, Malaysia, Brazil and everything there's a lot of things on those human rights elements and that's for my first 10 years and seven years ago I started another career one on a career it's the same career but like an entrepreneur with different companies I invest we invest in different companies startup companies and we have a consultancy our own consultancy in headquarters here in San Sebastian and where we provide services like internationalization strategy and people recruiting and human resources and the other one is the business angels business that we invest in the startups to create the first step of that startup and one of them is Philip says that wave garden wave garden is a company that produce machines to produce artificial waves for surfing okay and is the product that that is unique in the world there's no product in the world like that that produce a dynamic wave for surfing okay if you say wave garden dot com and you you see that and then we have we have 26 engineers working without a different vision that Philip says and recording the question okay I answer the question okay okay I think that is a a changing of model in the business okay the globalization that says Philip is reality now and is becoming a factor of competitiveness in the world and locally too why 18 years ago when I started working the values were like discipline were responsibility were perseverance were willingness to change to go abroad in different conditions and so on and we start working on that values focusing in the business like the most important idea in the world we have to become a great leaders we have to become a great directors in order monthly to put a figure in the last line okay now the world change in very local businesses and in startups like we have the people are not coming to work with us for this is coming with to work with us for that minimum level balance to have in the world but in the work but they value other things like well the vitamins the different the development on the human capital the well at the end the things that the globalization show us in the different channels different channels and at the end is is like a model in like a behavior in in business okay okay uh for example I was talking with with Philip yesterday uh I saw how Basque country companies 10 years ago I go with uh Basque country companies in order to define all the human resources process there in China okay they have to buy uh millions of millions of pieces for the product and we were doing all the human resources process the recruiting the training programs and we were in charge of those engineers that goes to that to that place in China okay we do that job it was very pleasant for us because you travel in China with 25 26 years old and what you got you see the the the world but we visit a supplier in order to see how they work in that supplier and in the trip the general manager says this is the best supplier that we have we have the best price we have the best quality we have the best timing we have the shooter okay the pieces are very good but I'm not very uh I don't I don't know how they work so let's go to visit them and we were we were in that uh factory with thousands of employees but there were a place with 50 machines 50 machines yeah doing different procedures and well we realized that there was a lot of people there in that factory there were childs there were men women and so on and we asked for how do you work this place place like the doll of this 50 machines people sitting people lying people sleeping there in the what's this and the machine is working that oh no each machine it's run by a family unit okay 24 years a day 24 hours a day and the father the mother and the brother of the father of the mother is running a machine for 24 years hours a day we're coming like like this and we say okay the best price the best timing the best everything but we can't work in this field we can do this and there were a little bit controversy because the chinese start arguing that that oh but we are doing uh we are preserving the human rights because we give to these people the breakfast meal the dinner the bed education for the children and if you see from the other part okay well just have some well logic but in the otherwise you see that people there sleeping in the field well the chinese are well they sleep there and don't worry and all the a lot of people in the in the factory lying and everything they are they are not a very good condition for that and 10 years ago today as Philip mentioned the engineers that works in in wave garden they have that things in their minds because all of them are surfers and they travel around the world to catch the best wave and the best waves are in Australia in California but they are in Malaysia and in other places and they see those things they see the difference level of of of the people so when they come here and they start developing the products that we are doing in wave garden they have that mind they have that they can't do something like and they ask for okay where are our suppliers where are each supplier is and how they work for this we have now our philosophy is to have suppliers from here the 95% of our suppliers in wave garden are from from Giputqua okay but if we had a one supplier in a country for example we have clients that in Morocco some clients in Africa in Nigeria we are and we are very aware of how can we do the job there protecting all the all these conditions and we are a little bit well let's go to first to Austin or Dolgaro Gales or other places that we don't have any problems with those human rights or with those practices okay so at the end I think that is a changing of model that is becoming a factor of competitiveness there in the in our field in our consultancy too we are we we started four years ago with this consultancy now we are 11 people we invest in the people we invest in values and thus model changing is becoming is going to the companies because we work with a lot of several companies in human resources in strategy and internationalization and this different view is becoming a a change a factor of the competitiveness nowadays excellent so what you were saying is that first of all the small and medium enterprises are facing or are more and more exposed to human rights issues as their value chains are yeah becoming increasingly global such as is the case with the multinational companies and the the second thing that you have mentioned which I think is relevant is that taking care being let's say responsible in this in this area is becoming increasingly important for attracting talent yeah actually building a human capital in a in a in a in a in a company now the question that I have in this respect is what does it mean for the role of the state what we've heard from from Miguel that the international law is increasingly demanding the state to intervene in these matters especially in these complicated extraterritorial situations so from your perspective where would you see the greatest need for let's say the state to do something new something what it has not been doing well I am I'm a university teacher too and and well the people are coming with that those values inside when they come to the companies no they they ask for for those environments that consciousness of a sustainable world and everything okay there for me there is a triple vision here there is the business the society and the state the states have the responsibility to regulate all of this but if we don't do anything for society well and the society works now in this globalization with different channels of inputs of information I think that we are talking about human rights in the business there is an opportunity to to focus like the state in to ensure or to develop those values in the companies in the in the business in order to put in the society a vision of the different way to do the business because what we are hearing in Kiputkwa in the vast country that I don't know if it's the same in the rest of Europe but I well I think that is yes okay that the entrepreneur of the businessman is a man without any well the only thing that he wants money and and still the money and and to produce more and everything and we have that vision as interpreter entrepreneur when we when we are with with our friends and even if sometimes with the family there's a businessman you only want the last line of in red in in black and with a lot of meals there a lot of money there no so at the end the state have to support this change of vision of the companies giving them different values in corporate responsibility and so on and those values in from the business are going to enter in the society and if one society with more comprehensive values that goes to the business that creates richness and everything is a kind of loudening in in the state and the state have to focus in that society that have those values and at the end the state regulates those things it's very important that the in the international way like Michael says that regulates things that well if like yesterday we see that if indie text do something wrong in in brazil on everything spain have something to say spain have something to do on that yes we have to regulate all of this so for me is the state have the obligation to regulate and the other one to promote the different values in the business and society in order to to maintain a balance or sustainable sustainability in the in that in that field but now the people that goes to the companies have in their minds those things because of the globalization i mean and the people travel more and everything and they have all the channels to have those inputs even if sometimes it's like a film i mean the people that never goes to to deli or to bangalore or to to bejin or jinhua never saw never smelled that that thing now never feel and only see that in their smartphones and so on for them it's like a film okay another film okay this but at the end they have that change in their mind okay these things that is they're passing there in in the world so it's an opportunity for the state to focus on that values and regulate for the companies well i i i guess that uh there's a lot of you a lot of to do in area of education or an area of business education because you said uh if if drawn this vision of a greedy businessman or a businessman for for that case uh something what prevails in a society and i guess this is also linked to the education that people are receiving at business schools and i and i would say that it's probably an area for some state intervention next to being vocal uh in public about about about these matters and he also mentioned that uh all these things eventually need to be regulated i would say that for small and medium enterprises and for those who approach the issues with certain sense of responsibility uh this is essential for just ensuring a fair competition with some companies who don't do it uh mickel same question to you and i assume that you might want to say something about the the remedy aspect of the of the state duty of the of the of the state duties to ensure protection of of human rights you've mentioned this at a general level but if you have any more specific ideas in terms of where the states in europe and a and a and a spanish state in particle should focus its attention then it would be all very happy to hear that that's basically uh my question was what should be the role of the state now in addressing these these these these challenges and in particle what could state do to improve the remedy especially in these extraterrestrial situations if there's anything concrete coming out of out of your work of course the the question could have many false answer but i suppose that the most added value that you can provide here or the most original focus i can i can provide here additional to the technology all of you have about these issues is that idea that this about this very new a very important new remedy we have in international arena that is the new additional protocol of faculty protocol on the economic social and cultural right uh to talk about this protocol and the possibilities that it's open opens to the individual remedies or to the individual communication to the to the individual particular denouncers is very bold because it's very new and we have no experience we have not just a case presented about this issue so we have of course not a jurisprudence about that but the the possibility is it's it's open in cases of a human right violation for corporate activities local or abroad if this link with the state is proof of them and with you we have of course pass through the all the all the other possibilities in the local system as a sexually of course you can for the first time in the in the history of international law international law of human rights to to to present a communication to the committee and this is a very unknown possibility and the states prefer it to to to remain unknown that what is logical at that at that same point in in belgium is very very new because in belgium is part of this this protocol since five no less less than five months three four months and spain and portugal are members are parties to this protocol from the very beginning but still we have haven't any any warship to the judicial system or to the lawyers here in spain to explain them how are the possibilities of these new possibilities what are the new possibilities open to the to the victims and the first warship we are going to to to to organize in spain with with the school of diplomatica the madrid from college of house the madrid is going to be held in in two months so for for the delivery of us is very very new but it's a very interesting opportunity and i think that this is the the most original view that i can i can provide or give here and the and the the status are what these are responsibilities for the state the status of course are responsible for for for ratifying this protocol but in the general observation in pardon excuse me in the in the concluding observation we always call the states to to to to share to publish to make the concluding observation be be be known by the the people we ask the state to to to to to publish the the observation to inform about the the people about the the observation and it's always missing activity or it's a very very few states inform their their communities about the possibilities of of this kind of remedies and that's why i can i think that this kind of frauds are a good moment to to to to to make you aware of of this new possibilities do i understand correctly that there is a condition of exhaustion of local remedies i'm sorry to be able to send a communication to committee and to have committee to look into the case all possibilities at the domestic level must be used of course of course this is the general rule of international love of yeah excellent i just wanted to to to make it clear okay since we don't have too much time we can we can continue for too long i would like to turn the attention to the to the to the audience if you have questions or comments especially focus either on what my two colleagues have presented or if you have your own views in respect to the next steps or the expectations from the states uh now is the time Carlos please and Trisha right after it just for the serving we do our experience on corporate governance and improving the management of human rights impacts in businesses uh from our experience we consider the corporate governance is good is a the really effective way to improve the the to improve the due diligence management uh in the business and human rights well first because the interpretation of duty of care in the in the current principles is due diligence and some this concept has has been transferred to the national laws one example is in Spain that is is is is raising the the the legal liability of the board about a risk and the due diligence risk on environmental human rights anti-corruption and that kind of issues so there's a legal liability in in the national law and that's obviously put it under the the risk management of the board so the in the in the logical of the management in the companies they understand perfectly what's what that's mean and so uh putting attention on the potential issues or the risk on this area and obviously the the awareness is is basic in this in this point because much of the people working in business they don't know well maybe they know some cases that uh that uh in you go tall but they they don't know how manage that kind of situations in the best way to be effective in businesses and to be effective in respect human rights at once so the awareness and the capacity building in in this kind of new management issue is important but anyway from the states in my in my in our opinion it should be done a lot of things and could be very effective in regulation on corporate governance and liability of the board and on the on the impacts thank you Trisha please uh Patricia Feeney from rights and accountability and development I would based in the UK um I was interested with your presentation in you go uh that um I got the impression that when you visited or the company visited the suppliers in China the small producers who did it on time and at cost um I got the impression that they decided that they had to withdraw um which of course raises all you know that's the big issue are you doing less harm or more by staying and trying to improve conditions and and work I mean as a consumer you'd think well surely raising wages so that adults can support their families is one basic way of dealing with a supply chain problem uh another thing would be to give you know scholarships so that the kids go to school rather than sleep in the factory and work in the factory and um uh so was it that the company was too small to consider uh these kinds of alternatives to sort of just withdrawing livelihoods um I mean I think there's a lot of discussion I I work a lot on responsible supply chain management in conflict minerals and it's rather uneven and actually what we're finding even in uh the famous OECD and um even the the US Dodd Frank I mean what they're what you're getting is more like um uh a traceable certification for the product but no real in terms of the conflict minerals say no real improvements in workplace conditions so I just wondered if the company in your case had considered other options other than withdrawal okay this um that uh this was 10 years ago and uh the only thing that uh if we were there with other kind of people there perhaps the vision that they have is the opposite okay they are doing well because these people were in the well in other sector and uh well they don't have anything to eat and then they come here to do that okay um but that uh I mean the profile of the uh busk businessmen in the industry uh they most of them they have that vision of the human rights even if the other things are very good for the business no so we stop the business in that moment and we run away and we say don't worry we we we had an uh a meal with them we had everything that you know China how is China with the business no the meal and the karaoke and everything we stop there and we go out okay well let's go I was in charge of the human resources and the process and my business there was like uh or come with us okay uh okay that point and they start finding another supplier no more like mr Kodero says we don't know about the passengers to say how can we do it this uh well in this chinese company no the only thing that is that the that that man says I'm not going to work with this kind of of people and not even with the the vision with I think that the human rights uh yes in the in that brain in the in the vision of my product is uh doing wrong in not well conditions but I don't think 10 years ago that those human rights were were inside of that man this was uh decision of I can do see this when I come in here to do the quality process okay I can see this and and even if everything is right for my product I can't see this and they are telling me that they this uh uh a very good process or a very good situation for them I can't see this no so at the end it's a kind of feeling uh from each businessman in the field because well at the end uh like my colleagues yesterday corta we have a lot of things to be aware uh we don't to my my job is to sell my product to sell my service I have to be aware for a lot of loss uh when I see that something that for me is not good I make the decision I take the decision and let's go to other thing but I don't put a precedent to to say okay in that company there's not well conditions for those employees and so on so that's the situation that's the situation I think that today uh is easier to do that because uh when you go to a company uh if there are no restrictions to take the photos and so on that in china well sometimes there is uh you take the photos and that and you can't share with your with your net at the end anybody of that net goes to Mr. Cordero and says who can how can I do with this or who is the procedure and well we can do something but that's the thing do you want to respond it's about the first we know the the very important the key role of um corporate management in the enjoyment of um human rights and that's why the first idea that our statement the statement we we had talked about um previously uh the first idea that we um underlined is that um the it's a rich like like that corporate corporate sector in many instance uh contributes to the realization of the economic social and cultural rights right in the covenant this is the first idea we we want to to to start with not with the idea that all about the corporate sector and human rights is about uh danger or risk or or adverse effects or whatever the the the first idea is the the the role of the the companies or the role of the private sector also as as part of as being part of the realization of the enjoyment of of of human rights and for this uh proposed of of course the corporate management management is the key issue to to to read this like like that so we can um we can name and even blame the the enterprise even when we can't ask directly them or we can demand directly them um anything like we can name them and blame them but we can also and we we have to to do of course to recognize it the the role as human rights I don't know provider not but human rights supporters not but a part of a human right enjoyment okay we are cutting into our break because we started late so we should we should slowly wrap up um I may offer some reflections to these questions as uh as well that I want to give you one last opportunity if you have something pressing to say something you want to ask are we good okay so so let me let me let me offer offer some some some take a base for myself I think I think it's very relevant what Carlos said about the let's say definition of director's duties in uh corporate governance framework or in company law in terms of risk management and due diligence and linking basically these duties with uh with uh responsibility to respect human rights and I think it it uh it links to what Iniegar was saying about the role of the state to um basically send out the message that the human rights are relevant and so this may be one way how to do it and how to start building building the awareness of human rights issues in companies in companies through actually definition of the duties of of directors one of the things that we have we have not addressed in great detail but it for me at least it was apparent that it is something that deserves attention is actually the clarification of expectations for how companies should address some specific human rights issues especially in in value chain and as Trisha mentioned when there is a problem in the supply chain what should you do should you just go away should you try to try to uh improve the situation obviously if you are a startup and if you are looking for suppliers that kind of fits your business model then nobody can expect you to start bending a situation that you have not been part of in the in the in the first place but there are other situations and it's especially relevant for bigger companies so we obviously need some some more clarity in that we need more standards we need uh agreement within an industry and this needs to be somehow reflected in in legal regulations to ensure a level playing field so that's that's the way that we should we should we should we should take uh and then the last question that we have we have somehow discussed is the question of of uh remedies and there is clearly a development of us the recognition of extraterritorial let's say obligations on part of the on part of the part of the states and uh there is a growing expectations then even in the in these situations there should be a remedy provided and the mechanisms the new mechanisms by this facultative protocol that Michael mentioned is an interesting option at the international level where domestic remedies uh fail but obviously ideally they should not fail ideally they should work in a way that actually provide access to to judicial remedy so it's it's very general conclusions obviously in this in this limited time we didn't have opportunity to go into much detail but if there is a message that we can send to states uh my take would be these uh these these three and I hope I haven't offended anyone by making the conclusion so um I guess we can end the session and go outside enjoy the coffee and be back at 1115 for the next session thank you and thank you


Next question is from Benelux Ryder. What are your thoughts on intro workout carbs? Are they really necessary if pre and post nutrition is well planned out? I think it's funny. Yeah, so intro workout carbs. You just got marketed to.  Studies show that there is a benefit for people who are working out for long periods of time. Yeah, yeah. Rigorously.  Then it makes sense to have carbohydrates because then your body can use those to replenish glycogen stores to give you more of that energy. It's such a splitting hairs conversation. For most people. For everybody. Even the example you just gave, it's still splitting hairs. It really is. I mean, and here's the deal, like, because my peers when competing did stuff like this. And you know what?  Like, okay, sure, play with that. You know, you can do that. I can tell you from my experience personally, I mean, I worked my way all the way up to a professional bodybuilder without worrying about that stuff, without worrying about the timing of my meal, post-workout, without doing any sort of an intro-workout carbohydrate. Like, none of that stuff is going to make a big difference. And I'm talking on that level. Even on that level, it is still splitting hairs. For the average person, is it worth it? No, now for endurance athletes who are doing long bouts of endurance. Sure, yeah, you're a marathon runner.  Then it makes a difference. Sure. And studies support that. But I will say this and here's the reason why it makes a difference. Okay, when you're an athlete and you're going to go do a marathon or go do a three or four hour mountain bike ride or whatever, your body only has the capacity to store something like six to eight thousand calories worth of carbohydrates. And liver and in muscle. And for high performing athletes doing these long duration. You could burn all that.  There is another option. The other option is to be keto adapted, go into these endurance sessions that require low to moderate levels of exertion for long periods of time. Right. Because even a lean athlete will have something like 30 to 40 thousand calories worth of fat that they can use and convert into ketones. Not really something to consider if you're an explosive athlete. Not if you're explosive, but if you're like a long distance runner or you're going to go, I remember when I was. Zach Bitter did this. Zach Bitter did this. I remember when I was keto adapted, both Jessica and I were keto adapted and I never kayak. I'm not an endurance athlete. I lift weights, but we went kayaking in Lake Tahoe. We were supposed to find this campsite, got totally lost, ended up kayaking for, I don't remember what it was like five or six hours with no food or anything. And I for sure thought, I'm going to get like, we're going to need to pull over something. We were both fine. And it was because we were running off the ketones the whole time. Now, if I was not keto adapted, I'm pretty sure I would have hit a wall and totally, you know, conked out or whatever. So that's your other option. If you're lifting weights, it's almost, it's a waste of time. It's not going to do you any, really any benefit to have carbohydrates. No major advantage in the middle of your workout.


Good morning. So I was just wondering if this room has become a confession room, because these speakers before me talked about students, and I'm also going to talk on a similar thing. So let me just start off with a brief introduction about myself. So I work for Intel India. So I've spent about 18 years in the industry, and last five, six years as a lean agile coach and on practices and tools. So this is just a culmination, or you can say a collation of the experiences from the journey what I went through. So how many of you here are agile coaches or people who work as Chrome masters? So one of the first common reactions that I've seen when we get into a coaching engagement is people say that they're already doing agile. So we don't need a coach. We know what it is all about. And they start off by talking about the daily stand-ups, then the sprint planning, review, and all that. And we talk more about the practices. So it is then that we get into the next level of conversation. So is this really helping you to deliver business value faster? So do you have your business teams, product teams, and your program management organization connected to each other? So these are the larger questions. And I will try and address some of the software aspects. I think Sean and Dan, who were in this room before me, they have covered a lot of these anti-patterns and other stuff. So maybe I think it's safe for me not to delve into too much detail in the first few slides. But my talk is going to primarily focus on the cultural dysfunctions, team dysfunctions, and also sub-optimal execution. So which is more about system thinking. So these are the three things that I will talk about even the constraints of time. Though I do have about 12 anti-patterns which I listed. And I feel lucky that there is no overlap between what the previous speakers spoke versus what I'll be speaking. So let me just go on without much ado. So we have heard this thing yesterday. I think it was Shane or somebody who pointed out that agile leadership should be viewed as a verb, not as a noun. So we should start doing things that are agile rather than getting carried away by the jargon that lies beneath it. So this journey started about four years back when I attended a talk by Pete Behrens in one of the agile conferences. And this is what he had to say. He said, as a verb we want leaders that actively lead organizations and people in agile ways. So that's what we'll be focusing on today. So I don't know if everybody can read this. So let me read it for you. So this is just a humorous thing that I picked up. But it is very much in line with what we see in the organizations that we work in. So it goes like this. So we are going to commit to 20 features that we don't understand because the VP said to do it. Yep. And then they are going to tell us, they are going to yell at us for not getting it done. The agile finance said we have to commit or forecast one of those. But then they are going to say agile doesn't work and bring back giant upfront specs. That appears to be the goal.  So does this strike a chord with you? This is something that you've seen happen in the companies that you work with. Yes, at least I had such experiences. Which is why I thought it's more relevant to put up a thing like this to just start the conversation. So again, this is a quote from the poet Rumi. So you may wondering what is a poet quote doing in agile conference presentation? So the quote goes something like this. Your task is not to seek for love but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you're built against it. So if you just replace the word love with agile or agility, I think it will read like your task is not to seek for agility but merely to seek and find all the barriers that you're finding as agility. And we'll be talking about some of the barriers today that comes in the way of being agile and how we can overcome that. So most of the things that I'll be talking about today is not something that is new but I'm just trying to correlate that with the context and the experience that I've gained. So that's the thing. So that's why I said, if I've seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. And failure, I'm not trying to glorify failure but there have been cases where things succeed and there have been cases where things fail. So failure is all about learning. So it is not losing the lessons when you lose. So that's what I wanted to convey here. So moving on. I think Sean and Don also talked about this done. So principle scale, but practices do not. So most of my talk will be preferred with try and avoid because what works in a particular context may not work in a different context because best practices are highly contextual and being agile is a journey. So you don't have a stop. It's a continuous improvement journey. And one more thing to remember is organizational structures will remind flexible. They will keep changing. So that is why practices may not scale but principles would. I'm sorry, okay. I think the color coming there is different from the one here, okay. So I'll be focusing on three things, the cultural anti-patterns. And I'll also be focusing on suboptimal local execution and dysfunctional teams. So these are the three things that I'll be covering. So how many of you here believe that culture is an important thing that distinguishes, I think more or less everybody says that. So it goes without saying that you cannot over emphasize the importance of company culture. So let me just give an example. So I work for a company which wanted to bring in the Toyota production system or lean, as we call it. And we went to Japan and we observed the company as to what they were doing. But when we came back, it took us nearly five to six years to really build that into our culture. And by then Toyota had moved way forward. So culture cannot be replicated. So culture is a source of competitive advantage, whether it is a team, whether it is an organization or even whether it's a country. So the primary drivers for cultural dysfunction are, I think we have been hearing these words time and again. So I will not get into the details. So lack of purpose, lack of trust, lack of ownership. And when we talk of disruptive behaviors, why did I put disruptive behaviors here? See, many managers and leaders tend to turn a blind eye to the people who are showing disruptive behaviors which damage the cultural fabric of the team of the organizations that they work in. So there are n number of psychological reasons why this happens. You have a fear of response or you have a tendency to be liked or you would like your team to be loyal to you which is why you don't sit and take action. But many of the times if you don't take strong action or timely action on the disruptive behaviors that damages the culture of the team and it brings down the entire team. So here is this quadrant about trust and ownership. So we have been talking all day long yesterday and today about trust and ownership. So high trust and high ownership zone is where we really want to be because that you'll be moving from command and control to energy and innovation. And high trust and low ownership leads to failure. So the leader may have trust on the team but there may not be much ownership coming in from the team so which leads to failure. Or that could be a case where the team wants to take ownership but the leader may be a micro manager and may not be allowing them to do it. So both these cases are bad. We need to move to a quadrant where we have high trust and high ownership within the team. And quite trust, I think you have seen this multiple times so almost every speaker has put this up but I just wanted to underline two points here. Collaboration has become a dirty word after Narasimha's speech but let me still go ahead and talk about it today. Let me be brave enough to talk about it and responding to change. So collaboration and change can happen only if you have trust and ownership. And I think even the sound system didn't like the word collaboration. Okay, so we'll just move on. See, we have been talking about trust all day long but trust has an economic value. So there were a lot of questions even yesterday on whether you can quantify trust. Yes, trust can be quantified. There is a great place to work survey. I think some of the product companies are a part of it in the service companies. So they have something called as a trust index and what they have found is the top 100 trust companies generated twice the revenue growth of the second ranking top 100 trust companies and four times that of S&P 500. So that's an impressive set of statistics that gives us the value of trust and why we are talking about trust here. No, no, see. Okay, so let me, yeah, I heard what you're saying. So maybe we need to look at this from the perspective that as an employee, if you trust the company, you're going to give your best for that company. So I think that's what it conveys. So there are also some questions in that survey. I had also taken that survey last year which talks about interactions between the team and the manager and stuff like that which also captures kind of what is happening at the grassroots level as well. So it may not, like again, all surveys should be taken with a pinch of salt. So having said that, I would still say that it makes a case for us to increase trust and why we need to be looking at increasing trust. So trust is all about hand holding. So I would just like to narrate a small story here. Some of you may have heard it but I think it's worth repeating it. So there was a little girl and her father who were just crossing a bridge and when they were just halfway through the bridge, the father gets scared and he tells his daughter, why don't you just hold my hand? Then the daughter says, no, no, I don't want you to hold your hand. You hold mine. Then the father asked the daughter, what difference does it make? Whether I hold your hand or you hold mine. She says it makes a lot of difference because if I hold your hand, then there may be a possibility that I might let go of it. But if you hold my hand, then I'm pretty sure that you will not let go of my hand at any point. So that's what being there for the team, when they need you is what trust is all about and what leadership is all about. And I found this formula on trust. So C stands, can anybody guess what the C, R and I on yes means, a quick guess? Okay, C is credibility. So you need to build your credibility. So if you are seen as an expert, then people will come to you. They trust you. That's why we go to some consultants or some doctors and not the others, right? Because there are so many people in the field because we trust them. We trust their expertise. Reliability is about doing what you say and saying what you do in a consistent manner. And the I is a tricky thing. It's called intimacy. So it's not the physical intimacy that we're talking about. What we are talking about here is can I entrust you with confidential information? So when I say something to you, can I be sure that it will not go out of the room or maybe out of our conversation? And yes, it's more of the self-orientation. That's why it's the denominator. So self-orientation is about people who steal the credit. So if you are a kind of person, again, you know, I'll probably refer you to Adam Graham's book on givers versus takers and why helping others to succeed helps you. We will probably talk about it towards the end. So people who are takers, maybe winners in the short run, but in the long run, people are not going to trust them on their leadership and that's going to affect the organization as well as the teams that they work with. And why did I put this poster here? So I just saw this movie intern about a month back. I found that whatever Robert De Niro was doing there, you know, he was an intern, 70 plus intern who was made to work as an executive assistant to a CEO who was just 30 years and how he creates that trust through all these things that we talked about, the spreadability, reliability and empathy and caring. So that's what this movie is all about. I think it's worth watching. Maybe we'll learn a few things from there. So again, you know, in terms of my epiphany moment about four years back, I attended this workshop by one of our HR folks who had read this book by Patrick Linceoni about the five dysfunctions of a team. And as part of this workshop, we had done exercises where we talked about our personal experiences and professional experiences which has a high impact on us. We talked about our strengths and weaknesses and how that affects the team. So it was a three day workshop. And at the end of it, you know, we came to know a lot about each other. There was a higher level of trust and we were just building a team at that point. And I was able to see that, you know, focusing on these things, like how do you increase trust and how do you remove this fear of conflict and how do you understand, by understanding the other person better helps a lot. And if you look at this pyramid, I think it's bang on because absence of trust leads to inattention to results. And that's exactly what comes out from the great place to work survey in terms of companies with higher levels of trust and companies at the slightly lower level of trust. So trust is also all about vulnerability. So if you can say to your team members, I made a mistake or I need help, I'm not sure, then that shows that there is trust. So you can go and share your weaknesses as well. So lack of trust is more easily visible than the presence of trust. So how does a team without trust look like? So one thing is fear. So there's an eerie atmosphere, right? So there's a lot of micro management in teams that lack trust. And then there's a lack of safety. So I put the word safety here because people hold information. We look at information as a source of competitive advantage and we don't share it freely within the team. And there are also people who are busy gaming the system. So I think the speakers before me also talked about focusing on the outcome. But probably people focus more on the output and how they can show them that it's better than others. So that kind of an environment exists. People don't share information. People become defensive because the focus is on the person and not the issue. And there's a lack of engagement. So I think we have all been to these kinds of meetings, right? Where we don't really get engaged. So there's a lack of engagement. So again, you know, it's about this judgment part. There is something called as the error of attribution. So in teams that lack trust, what happens is if I'm late for a meeting, I would attribute that to bad traffic or probably a back to back meeting that I had. But if I see the same behavior coming from somebody else in the team, I'm going to attribute that to a lack of attitude, right? So you have different yardsticks. You tend to get judgmental very quickly because you don't trust the other person. And you have disconnected customers. And people here, people in the team hear about things only from the great point. And there's a lot of agitation. So the key question that leaders should be asking themselves is, am I breaking the trust in the team? Or is it that there is no trust that exists and do I need to create one? So what are the strategies that we can use to increase trust? So I talked about the boot camp which you could do at the beginning when you're trying to create a team. You could use things like Patrick Linceoni's workshop or whatever. And you also tend to share your work histories. And yesterday, there was an interesting set of games called Impro Games. So they are also something that could be used for getting a better understanding among the team members. Then you also share your profiles, which is what we did exactly when we did that Patrick Linceoni workshop. We shared our Myers-Briggs profiles with the rest of the team so that they understand where we come from and what we are doing. Team working agreements. So I think that's a separate session on this in agile India. So standardizing the way you want to work as a team, especially with respect to your day-to-day decisions and what kind of actions you want to take if somebody violates those agreements is something that you could put as part of the team working agreement. And breaking barriers. So I think there's no better example for this than the talk that Richard Sheridan gave yesterday where he talked about breaking the walls physically. And I think I saw a similar thing from the CEO of AirAsia last week, Tony Fernandez. When he said that he was trying to increase the openness and transparency in AirAsia for a long time, but he was not able to do it. But then one day he just went and demolished all the cubicles that the managers were sitting in and he said that openness and transparency started happening from there. So physical barriers also matters. The way the team arrangement is, the way people sit and the collaborative environment that you build matters a lot. So it is also about failing wise and failing early. So do you have frequent connects with your customers? Do you demo things? Do you understand what your customers really need? Then visualizing workflow is a powerful tenet. So it's something that I think most of you will be using from the Kanban space. So it's about small deliverables and shorter iterations so that you get to know. You get to see the outcome of whatever you are doing. Then having a shared vision and promoting knowledge sharing across the team. And 360 degree feedback I think is the most important. I would like to quote an example here. So I work with a manager who actually shared her 360 degree feedback with the entire team and we started working together to work out ways on what we can do with respect to the implement areas that really created a lot of trust in the team because the manager was so open. And I think about five, six years ago, the CEO of HCL Technologies, Vinit Nair also did something like that. He made us appraisal public to the entire organization. So I think those kind of things do help if leaders are transparent and share feedback. And it also encourages teams to go back and share feedback with them. So what is the role of the leader in building trust? So the leader's attitude is what shapes the team's attitude and the team behavior. So what I would like to talk about here is accept change. So I think there is no better leader who accepted change than Nelson Mandela. So when somebody asked him, how did he spend 30 years in prison? He just told them that I just took a long vacation. So that's what attitude is all about. So that resilience which brings us back every day to what we do. And embracing ambiguity, don't beat data to death. Don't still wait for that 1% information that you're looking for. Make your assumptions, move fast. Then listening and empathy. I don't need to explain that. We all know what it is. And setting a shared vision wherever you have multiple teams. So this is where most of the larger or the large scale agile implementations run into trouble because the different teams that we're working with start looking in different directions. They don't really have a common goal that they work towards. Then the ability to detect patterns in terms of how the market is shifting and how the customer mindsets are shifting also helps the team. So I also talk about decision filters here. So I just coined the acronym called FIIT. So FIIT is about fairness, integrity, authenticity and transparency. So every decision that you make has to be put through these filters so that you are seen as fair and a person of integrity by the team. So and about receptiveness to feedback, I already talked about it. So share the feedback with the team and look for ways in which you can improve. Then the last point I think about sharing credit is extremely important. So this is where I had brought in the context of givers versus takers. So actually Adam Grant gives a very wonderful example of Jonas Salk who had discovered the polio vaccine. So there were a lot of people who worked with Jonas Salk. But Jonas Salk was the only one who got the Nobel Prize for the particular discovery. So immediately after that is the entire research team abandoned him and he never came up with any worthy discovery after that. So not sharing the credit was one of the main reasons you know why the relationship broke down. I think that's a good example and as leaders I think we should be able to share credit with the team wherever it is due. If not we would be seen as takers and people who, maybe people will work with us for the first time but they may not like to work with us the second time around. Okay so we have talked all day about establishing purpose. So a lot of people have talked about it. But how do you establish purpose? So this is something that I've run through with some of the teams that I work with. So when you start a program or when you start a product or when you start an engagement I think these questions are extremely important. So you need to understand what is your mission? Who is your customer? What is your plan? What results? So these are the outcomes. What are the results that we see? And what is your customer value? So let me just ask you a question here. So if you are going to a shop to buy a night drug what is it that you're actually buying? What is the value that you're buying? You're buying a good night's sleep right? So that's what you're looking for when you buy a pillow or a mattress or whatever. So from the perspective of the team that is working on the product they need to understand what the customer perceives as value. So I would just like to narrate an anecdote here which actually led Drucker to come up with these five questions. So there was a company which was selling window blinds in the early 1920s and they were into a lot of trouble. So there was a consultant who was hired to help them to get back on track. And one of the first questions that the consultant asked the owner of the company was what is the business that you are in? He said I'm in the window shades business. Then she asked the next question why do you think people come to buy window shades when he started thinking? And he said that people come to buy window shades because they want protection from light and they want privacy. So then it dawned on him that he was not exactly in the window shades business but he was actually into the privacy and the light control business. And this company later went on to sell Venetian blinds which was not so popular in the United States and probably became the number one company at a later point in time. So there's a shift in thinking when you ask these questions which is what I wanted to point out. And purpose impacts stress. So wherever I see that whatever I do contributes to a greater good or produces economic growth I will probably trust. There is something good in going with that. And when you talk about purpose I don't think there is anything better than this man on the moon speech given by Kennedy. So it has the why, why they are doing this. It has the timelines in terms of before the decade is out. And it also spells very clearly what is required of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely back to the earth. So that is the mission. So about increasing ownership I think skills are really important if you want people to take up ownership. So as managers we need to detect patterns. We need to look at what is the direction in which the industry is moving. And if they can proactively spill up the people that would really help. And mentoring one to one spending time with your team. So Jack Welch who was the ex CEO of G used to spend a lot of time with his direct reports trying to understand them better. So maybe we also need to have that one-on-one time with the team and try to understand what they are doing, what are their challenges and what is it that they would like to work on. That really helps a lot in terms of assigning the right person to the right job. And we talked about fear already. So it's also about removing fear. So lack of tolerance to failure is one of the things that frequently comes up. And you also need to be focused on the outcomes and not have people gaming the system by just looking at a convenient set of metrics. So team performance over individual performance. Yes, we need to have some weightage to the team performance as well. Because if we just focus 100% on individual performance I don't think people will go and start taking up work or helping the team to meet its goal. So it's more about the individual then. And connect the teams to the customers. So this again has to be done in a gradual way but it has to be done because the team needs to understand firsthand. It kind of also helps them to understand the purpose and the customer pain points. So if you just allot a bug to a person to solve you may not be knowing much about it but if he interacts with the customer then he might know what is the business value of that. So we recently worked on something, worked on a bug which led to an outage. So people understood what is the revenue impact on the customer because of that because they interacted with the customer and that made them appreciate why they were looking for the timelines that they were looking for. And create a culture of gratitude. So do you say thanks or do you recognize your teams on a regular basis for the good work that they are doing? And it is not only about the leader does it also happen across the team? So creating a culture of gratitude is important. Then this vacation test is something that I had tried. So try to go on a vacation where you're not in touch with the team. This will help you to really identify people who take one or two people who don't or it could also be a complete disaster in which case I think you need to start working on why people are not taking ownership. So that's a very good test. Have your succession planning in place because if you have a succession plan then it's a motivation for that person to take more ownership and have your backup planning also for each individual. So we move to the next set. How do we deal with non-collaborators? So there are some strategies that we can use. So I think one of them Richard Sheridan also mentioned yesterday when he talked about let's try an experiment. So that's probably one of the things that I also had included in my slide. And the other thing is also to look at people who are close to the person who is non-collaborative so that you can find those influencers who can actually go and influence that person. Then it is always important not to get into power struggle with the person who is a non-collaborator because it can cascade down across the team. So it needs to be handled very deftly and speak so that you are heard. What I mean here is actively listen to the other person, try to understand where their fears are coming from and try to put it across in a way that you are able to project what's in it for them and how the impact on them will be mitigated by going for certain strategies and be transparent. So I would just like to give an example here. So one of my team members had asked him to do multi-skilling on a different technology or platform, I found that he was very reluctant to do it. But when I told him that this product, whatever we are working on, is going to get into a sunset more soon, then he got the message and he started working on it. So it's always good to be transparent sometimes if you need to get results from non-collaborators and also share how you feel. So if you have a manager who is a micro manager and you are not feeling good about it, I think you need to express it and you need to come out with a way by which you can proactively go and share information. An appreciative inquiry, I would just like to give an example here. So appreciative inquiry is all about knowing where you are, where you want to be and what takes you there. And there is no better example for this than Abraham Lincoln. So there is a book called Team of Rivals. So Lincoln found that there was a common ground between him and the people and his rivals who actually also ran for the presidency with him. And he inducted them into his cabinet because he knew that they had a common enemy and it would work. So maybe you also need to know what is a common ground. And one of the examples that I could cite from my personal experiences, I was dealing with the person whom I was trying to influence on a project issue. And we were not really making much of a headway, but when we found that through our interactions that we share a common personal interest or a hobby, it really makes it a lot more easy for you to talk to that person and try to influence them. And not only people, but processes can also be non-collaborative. So it's very important to understand how to deal with non-collaborative processes. You may want to standardize or automate that particular process. Or you might want to create a situation where I can just give you an example here to explain what I'm talking about. So audits are something that people dread. So and teams are not really forthcoming when it comes to audits. So it may probably help that you just go and train a few people from the project team and they do the audit for their particular team. So that's probably one way to make a non-collaborative process more collaborative. And there is this movie called Bridge of Spice, which I saw recently. So that's a very good movie which talks about negotiation tactics. So I think some of these will help you when you really want to deal with non-collaborators. See, actually my contention is that people are the same. Only the process models are different. So what I'm really talking about here is about how do you deal with people who don't collaborate? So it could happen either way. See, they are specific to agile because there will be, see when you talk about trust and ownership, right? So there will always be some people who may not exactly fall in line or align with your way of thinking. So how do you win them over is what I'm talking about. So it may not necessarily mean that it works only in an agile context or a waterfall context. So it is pretty generic. The principles are generic, but you could apply them based on the context. So that's the answer. And measurement systems are important. So when you want to bring about change, you need to look at your measurement systems. I think nobody explains this more succinctly than Elea Goldrath when he said, tell me how you will measure me and I'll tell you how I will behave. And Jim Ismith also came out with this long statement, but let me just read it out for you. We will have, we have to be as innovative with our measurement systems as we are with our development methodology. So project failures are not really cost only due to development methodologies, but they're also cost because of wrong measurement systems and the way people are dealt with. So the finite versus infinite game is the next thing. So don't be focused only on the deadlines. Focus on the customer value, the quality, the product success, the time to market and the profit. So this is what is the outcome-driven thinking that we talk about. So it's important for us to focus on a few critical behaviors. So behaviors are what leads to culture. So you don't try changing the culture, try changing the behaviors and invest in modifying systems so that they promote that particular behavior. So let me just give you a humorous story here. So I was just going through an economist blog a few weeks ago and there was an interesting story there. There was a person who had a four, five-year-old son who was wetting his diapers every day.  I will just give you a reward if that does not happen. And the next day when he went, he saw that the diaper was dry, but the bed was soaked. So you don't want to really have a system which leads to the right outcomes but probably not achieved in the right way. So you also need to be wary of that. So one of the things that I found that really works is like when you're starting a new engagement or when you're going in for a change, the teams which volunteer and who are the first and early adopters display certain behaviors. So if you can reward those behaviors rather than just wait for the outcome, it becomes viral and a lot of other teams also jump onto the bandwagon because of that. So it creates a lot of momentum. And suboptimal execution is about system thinking. So I think we have all been part of projects where things move fine till the integration state. But beyond integration, it probably takes a long time. So we are talking about project silos here and inventory and a lot of viewing that happens. So this is more in line with the lean methodology. So there are also unclear roles and responsibilities which leads to work duplication, delayed decisions. And the most important thing is there is a lack of linkage between your strategic, tactical and operational goals which again needs to lack of flow, rework and all that. And there are also large batches wherever you have people working in silos because there's a lot of viewing. So moving on. So you need to move towards organizational structures which focus on doing the right things rather than doing things right. And we also need to work in smaller batches because smaller changes, fewer open bugs, faster cycle time, there's always a better economics from doing that. And this is again from the Harvard Business Review. So if you work with smaller batch sizes, you can improve the efficiency of your product. So one team increase their efficiency of testing by 220% and decrease defects by 33%. The other thing to look out is, look at how we want to align your component teams. So what I have given here may be an exaggeration. The UI team is working on user story one and DB is on three and middleware is on two. But this is what really happens in a large project where there is no communication happening and maybe one part is done by a vendor, one part is done by a product team within the company. So align the component teams, create your vertical slices and manage dependencies. So there are tools like DSM, Design Structure Matrix which can be used to manage dependencies and at least ensure that you don't do testing in a waterfall, at least integrate your functional testing with the development teams. Wherever it is not possible to integrate end to end, at least start looking at having integration leads for the different platforms so that they will align the different teams. And it's always good to, as scrum masters or agile coaches or product owners, I think it's good for us to ask this question, like what is the PSI that the entire team would like to create in a particular sprint? So that this will create alignment across the teams. And one of the things that I have seen which really works is your cumulative flow diagram. So you need to generate this cumulative flow diagram at least once a week so that you understand where the bottlenecks are. And this sets a trigger for continuous improvement. And I'm just trying to put down certain things here. For lack of time, I'm not getting into the details. So it is important for us to understand what is the value that we are delivering to the customer. And value stream mapping is a very good technique which can help you to identify the value ads and non-value ads. And also the initiatives, whatever you are taking make the impact of that visible to the team. So couple of years back when we started doing a Kanban pilot with one of the teams, we put the cycle time on charts, wherever the team could see it. Because they could see that by doing Kanban, they were able to reduce the cycle time over a period of time. And that created a better sense of ownership. Then ensure that there is a linkage between strategic and operational goals. So if you're starting a project or program, make the team understand how it fits into the larger perspective in terms of the strategic goals of the organization or the customer whom you are working with. Then integrate your tool sets. So we had cases where team A, within the same project team A will be using rally, team B will be using rational team concept. So try to look for those inefficiencies and try to standardize your tool sets. So it's not about rally or rational, it's about ensuring that the teams can talk to each other and the data can be integrated. And also build quality into the system. And why did I put this build cross functional channels for frequent communication as, I had a case where I saw a team doing scrum of scrums once every week for a two week sprint. So we can very well understand that, you know, they would have had multiple delays because of that. So frequent communication helps at least ensure that the teams think of at least once on a day to day basis to discuss the impediments. Am I closing thoughts about making change stick? So create a purpose, connect people to a larger purpose. So have a sense of urgency behind the change. So if you're going to tell people to jump off a 10th floor of a building, they would not do so. But if you tell them that there is a fire and that's the only way to escape, they would definitely do it. So give people the reason why you want them to do what they want to do. And inculcate right behaviors. We already talked about this. So have organizational structures around doing the right things, apart from doing things right. And the last point is about deriving your practices from the principles. Most of the times we start with the practices, but we lose sight of the principles. And the last one is about hiring the best fit. A lot of times we look for people with high technical competence, but they may not be really good team players. So you may also want to look at the best fit rather than the best. And these are a couple of quotes which are found interesting. So this one from a Feynman where he says, you may know the name of a bird in all languages, but you still know nothing about the bird. So try to understand what lies beneath the jargons instead of just using them.  So don't fool yourself about the outcomes. Be transparent and authentic about the outcomes that you want to achieve. And at all times, think about the what, why, when, how, where, and who. Because these are your best servants. They help you to address all the issues and challenges or help you to get hang of the real status. And here are a few books which I believe are really trendsetters. So there is this given take by Adam Grant which talks about, it's very important to have a right balance between givers, takers, and matchers within a team. So it really helps to understand the team dynamics. Originals is a recent book which also talks about how do you make your team more innovative, and what are the steps that has been taken by multiple companies. The five dysfunctions of a team are already discussed. It's from Patrick Lencioni. And the agile culture by Pauliana Pickston is a good book which talks about how you can increase trust and ownership. And apart from that, I think Nareesh also mentioned Dan Pink's book called Drive. So when we talk of purpose, autonomy, and mastery, I don't think there's a better book than that on how individuals get motivated. So that's pretty much what I had on my side. So I hope you found this talk interesting. And I've been able to at least have at least one point that you can take away from this. Thanks a lot. See, one way to handle that is, I think you also need to manage up. So if you are delegating some things to your team, then you also need to look at what are the things that you can take up which will move you to the next level. So that can be the motivation for the delegation. So I'm not sure whether that works in all contexts or whether it's the best thing to do, but I think that's one of the ways that you can look at it. See, what I see is, let me just repeat the question. So he was asking like, what are the dimensions of trust, right? That a leader should be looking at, and what are the different categories? See, okay. One of the things is definitely the shared vision part. So how do you relate to the larger organization or to larger teams in terms of trust? And the second thing is also to work with the organization to look at what are the measurement systems that are in place today, which are in conflict with the values that you want to promote as a team. So I can give you an example. So when we try to bring agility to one of the teams, so one of the things that people wanted to look at was a career roadmap, because the organization had not really defined a career map for people who went down the agile path. So that is something that we had to work on. So there will be a lot of things that will be coming off the flight, but the thing here is it needs to be aligned. There needs to be an alignment, and wherever there are gaps, you need to work out to plug it, whether it is at the organizational level or whether it is at the team level. Team level is easy to fix because you as a leader would have more control. We'll take it offline. Yeah, we'll discuss offline.


So when the first round playoffs we were up against the Golden State Warriors and Surprisingly the underdog Lakers actually won the series We beat Steph Curry and the Golden State Warriors in a seven game series The challenge to the NBA finals does not get any easier. We're now facing up against Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook Two beasts in the NBA Now if you don't think they're any good, we'll take a look at this in 2014 Kevin Durant won the MVP in 2016 Kevin Durant won the MVP and in 2017 Russell Westbrook won the MVP and it's crazy. The series will be challenging Round two action of the NBA playoffs about to get underway Tonight, we'll see the Los Angeles Lakers playing against the Oklahoma City Thunder in their house Chesapeake Energy Arena Looking at the Thunder they enter the conference semi-finals looking very tough a clean sweep and round one They're hoping to carry that momentum into game one tonight So here it is round two up against the Thunder the Lakers versus Thunder here Oh, the lake is starting five at the five. That's on white side at the four boogie Demarcus Cousins at the three the injured Jabari Parker who yeah, he's still injured in this series Unfortunately, and at the two Colby Bryant as I get dunked on and at the one DeAngelo Russell now if you guys haven't checked out today's video Do so. It's a pretty funny video the one I released earlier. It's a Jersey review video But I also have a slapping contest with my brother So be sure to check the video out. Now. Let's get into this my GM series. So It is the second round playoffs up against the Thunder. Kobe's going vintage on Sergei Parker right there He says hand down man down Westbrook feeding it off to Kevin Durant as he hits the mid-range jumper JR Smith, we run a play for him We see the mismatch on a Sun White side and we feed him down low And he was literally on a baby as he dunks all over Jody makes right there Durant He is the Durantula as he slams that one down The injured Jabari Parker is something else man He can't hit a shot because he is injured still which is unfortunate But JR Smith says, you know what? He won't hit a shot to let me hit a shot and I celebrate like I always do with a crazy I don't even know what that is, but that looks pretty sick right there 19 to 11 to end the first quarter The Thunder you already know these guys are gonna come back Alan takes a terrible shot though He misses that we give the ball up to JR Smith who feeds Kobe Bryant who gets the easy layup This man has lost a lot of his athleticism But a man that hasn't lost a lot of his athleticism And I don't think he will for a while and that's Ross of Westbrook as he gets that lab to go It's on it's only a three-point lead now to the Lakers as the Sun White side gets that done to go And you're gonna see throughout the whole of this video a Sun White side and DeMarcus cousins really step it up They're playing as proper big men. They're working as a team They're being the Beast Towers as I've named them before and I'll name them again The Beast Towers Westbrook goes all the way But gets denied by Boogie cousins and then Boogie feeds to Sun White so he gets that slam to go 33 to 26 one minute 20 seconds left in this game Boogie sets a nice green and then rolls for the Alley Ups slam right there as he gets that dunk to go JR Smith gets him with a crossover He flops and JR Smith with the easy scoop layup 37 to 28 and that ends the half 14 rebounds 11 assists shooting 55 percent the Lakers are looking good 37 to 28 start at the third quarter Alan Giving up to Kevin Durant as he hits that three and it's only a six-point game right now Kobe Trying to be throwback Pumson gets that midi to go 39 to 31 Kobe Bryant looks like vintage right there Durant putting on the moves Mrs. Ibaka comes out of nowhere with the flying Alley Ups slam gets that to go and then Westbrook draws the foul and Guess that and one to go so the Thunder are looking like they're gonna come back in this game Kobe Bryant feeds the Sun White side who gets his own board gives it out back to Kobe Who gets that three to go and as soon as we thought the Thunder we're gonna come back in this game the Lakers? Strike again Durant gets that midrange to go and the Lakers need to play this defense They need to lock down Durant and Westbrook if they do that they're gonna win this game to Barry Parker It's about the only shot.  Hopefully it's gonna hit this free throw to make it a ten point lead in the last quarter He gets that to go But then the Lakers leader suddenly cut down to six doesn't even matter make it nine as the Angelo Russell gets that three point shot To go in real life. Actually, there's been rumors about Jordan Klotzing Leaving the Los Angeles Lakers. Apparently there's been a trade rumor. He's going to the Pelicans or something like that I'll keep you guys updated if that happens soon, but that's crazy Boogie slaps it down right there And so the Lakers have a strong lead with about three minutes left in this game Make it a three point lead with two minutes left Jabari gets the quick steal and he's waiting for someone to come down here It is the Angelo Russell from downtown He hits that three and that's a six point game with two minutes left remaining in this game Westbrook clutches hell gets that midi to go 69 to 73 It's a four point lead to the Lakers Boogie sets a nice green rolls to the rim and gets that slam to go Demarka's cousins has been dominating in this last quarter This game is going down to the wire Expect a crazy finish So the Thunder had the ball one minute 40 left remaining Westbrook feeds it off to Alan Alan right here had an open look, but he drives inside Gets the teardrop floated to go. It's a four point lead one and a half minutes remaining All the Lakers need to do right now is slow it down and get a good look Randall sets the pick right there He's rolling to the basket. Nobody's covering him and won For Julie is Randall the rookie The second-year player, but didn't play much in his first year goes to the basket draws the foul gets the finish and the free throw and We also give up another open look But Alan can't hit anything and we need one shot for the dagger with 50 seconds remaining They leave Jayar swish open as he knocks it down and that folks is the dagger Kevin Durant couldn't get the win neither could rush the Westbrook and the Oklahoma City Thunder Go down and lose game one as Kevin Durant is definitely disappointed with that result So the Lakers take game number one In the second round playoff series up against the Oklahoma City Thunder Westbrook dropped 16 6 for 9 shooting, but Durant dropped 11 with 5 for 15 shooting a one from 8 from downtown I could see why Durant was disappointed with himself So here are the Lakers stats boogie 22 points didn't get many rebounds He left them all to a some white so to go to double double 15 and 10 3 assist Kobe Bryant 12 points 5 assists J.R. Smith dropped 12 points as well now before I leave you guys I wanted to say this for some reason my stupid recording device the Elgato messed up And so I don't have game 2 game 3s game 4 Game 5 actually no, I got game 5, but I don't have game 2 game 3 game 4 So my bad on that one guys I don't even know what happened my recording device messed up so I can get I can show you guys game 5 But then I can't even show you guys game 6 or if it goes to a game 7 So I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'll do something for you guys So in the next episode you'll see game 5 up against the Thunder not game 2 not game 3 not game 4 It's been Bonnie Smith. I'm out. Peace