Today we're going to talk about Chopper Reid and he was an Australian criminal who wrote several crime novels and children's books and between the ages of 20 and 38, he spent only 13 months outside of prison walls. He contracted hepatitis C after being cut in prison and he died of cancer, liver cancer at the age of 58. Greg, tell us about the videos we're going to watch. Yeah, so this is an interview with Tara Brown from Australia's 60 Minutes.  He was in foster care his first five years. He had a whole lot of abuse, he had some physical beatings by his father.  He made a business when he was younger of abducting lower level criminals and torturing them in exchange for money and they let him out and he became that best selling crime author. That's it. There could be no more fitting place than Melbourne's Pentridge prison for Chopper Reid's final interview.  So weeks from death, it was here he decided to finally come clean on a crime he has never been convicted of, murder. Tonight, he's admitting to four homicides. Well are you prepared to tell the truth today? Yeah, of course I am. Why is that? Because that's what it's all about. This is the last interview, the last picture show. Does your word mean anything?  That's it. Four is all you're getting and that's it. Four, that's it. I haven't killed any more than that and don't try to tell me, don't try to make out that I have.  Oh yeah, of course I am. Right. But I'm telling the truth now. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, some lovely elements to this. I block on yes, of course, that he's telling the truth. So immediately, I think maybe you're not going to tell the truth.  Sometimes they won't look at you and sometimes they'll really look at you. So, you know, there is no one indicator of somebody being deceptive. And here I think you see looking away and looking directly at as both indicators of potential deception here. So interesting. Last picture show. He uses that metaphor there and basically signalling to us, this is going to be entertainment. This is going to be spectacular, what you're going to see. He soothes around the knuckles. So lots of protection and soothing around there. But relaxes on, of course. So so look, I think there's going to be in this some real entertainment. I think there's going to be some truth telling. I think there's going to be some deception. I think I think he doesn't quite know at this point, you know, where he's going to go with this one. So let's see, from my point of view, let's see how this rolls out. Let's see what he comes up with. Chase, what do you got on this one? Right on this intro video here, there's a noose hanging from the rafters. I don't know if anybody else noticed it. The rope looks brand new. And I think they probably put this there to walk under it. And I think that was super strange. It looks brand new. His skin and eyes are yellow here. So I think if there's some kind of sickness going on, I don't know anything about this case or this person. This is jaundice or maybe liver failure that's going on, where there's a chemical in your liver called bilirubin, which comes from breaking down some red blood cells. And this can be a reaction to chemotherapy. So there maybe has cancer here, if that's correct. But this behavior here is artificial confidence trying to appear dominant and in control. His body gives it away pretty quickly. His hands tighten up and pull back to protect his genitals. This is an unconscious response to stress and fear. He breaks eye contact while he's trying to be dominant. He breaks eye contact and looks away and looks down at the floor. There's repetition of words and reassurance and comfort. And right for him. And there's a high shift in blink rate upward to about 60 plus. This is how often we blink is an indicator of stress up high. And the lower the less often we blink is an indicator of focus, most likely. So this is all a complete statement here. A lot of this speaks to a false bravado, a being more domineering than dominant and being more controlling than in control. This is deception. I think we're going to see some interesting stuff. I want to pitch this to you guys while we're here on YouTube. Let's do something different this time. Each one of these videos that we're about to show you is going to have a little crime associated with it. What if we each one of us would give a percentage on likelihood of truth for each one as we're going through these down with that? Yeah, that's good. That's great. It's coming. All right. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so yes, he is in liver failure. This is days before he died. So all that yellow and all that John is tied to his liver failure. And I think he's liver cancer, Scott, you said. But as he's going through this, one of the things that I will point out is someone in the medical profession is going to say that's because this enzyme in his body is not reacting correctly. So if there's something we missed because of biology, because of medicine, please put it in the comments. You may know better than we do. It's just your opinion. OK, but if it's a medical fact, we're interested in that. Interestingly, he's got a pronounced grief muscle. We always talk about the grief muscle being this arch here. That's part of who he is. It's just how he's wired. Now, I'll also say this. If you've never lived in a dodgy neighborhood, you probably never met this guy, but I've met this guy a bunch of times when I was poor and living in some pretty rough spots. And you know the guy who's funny, funny, funny until he is not. And that's their way of being on top of things. And that false bravado is kind of this gig they have. I would bet you that people that knew him would say, yeah, he's funny until he's not until he snaps. That pronounced grief muscle will see him use it to some degree. But that request for approval when he says, all you're getting is for all you're getting is for it.  Then he moves to an eye block and at chase to your point, he closes and covers his genitals. And more importantly, he's milling his hands at the same time. So he's created some sacred spaces. I refer to it meaning I make my own space and then do something that is repetitious to make myself comfortable in that space. And Mark, I'm with you. He eye blocks when he says, I'm telling the truth. And then he makes hard eye contact. I'm telling the truth. Now, I think if you're looking for what I would call the truth, meaning factual factual information and fact based truth, you're probably not going to get it. I think he's done this so many times and he's created this kind of act that we're seeing. He stood on stage. He's been in comedy shows. He's got an act. That's what we're seeing. Scott, what do you got? I agree. Now, it's important to keep in mind that that the face is actually a dual delivery system. So in other words, it can send two messages at the same time with expressions. You may see part of one expression and then another completely different expression, but they're blended together. That's what Eggman, that's how he approaches it. It talks about how how expressions can be blended together to give you an odd combination of one feeling or one expression and another one. So let's pay attention to that here because we see a lot of that going on here. And the two here that we see, the two, what it looks like is grief and then false confidence. And the false confidence is this almost stoic straight face, which is the false one. And then the the stress and grief is that that knitting of his brow, the gobella right there, how it comes together. And he's got like Greg was talking about that upside down horseshoe there that we always term as the the grief muscle. And then he says, yeah, of course I am. We see that eyelid flutter and then they're closed. And that indicates distancing with it with the eye blocking there. And his head wins is almost like he was being smacked. And his eyes closed as he answers. And his brains trying to move him away from that situation. Subconsciously, I guess you'd say, because from a psychological standpoint, that's he doesn't want to hear all this. And when he says, that's what's all about. The last interview, the last picture show, he's adding qualifiers and no need to add qualifiers unless you're trying to make something sound bigger and greater than it is. And she says, do your word mean anything? Then he initiates several of these large illustrators or regulators trying to shut her down because I think he's afraid she's going to get into that where he talked about earlier in other interviews, how he wasn't honest. And I think they talked about it before this. So I think he's trying to shut her down at that point so they don't get into that. So we'll believe what he's getting ready to say. And at the same time, his arms close up, his arms get tied around his body there towards his torso and his head shakes. No. And all these indicators trying to shut that conversation down. So, Mark, what happened to Desi Costello? Well, Desi Costello was standing here. He was here. Yeah.    I'm going to whack the bang. Outside the Lenster Arms Hotel in Collingwood, Chopper is taking me through this bizarre reenactment of a murder 42 years ago.  Right, this one?  I didn't even like that. Right. It was an organized hit on Union heavy Desmond Costello. Chopper Reid was just 17 years of age, and this was his first murder. All right, Chase, what do you got? Now that the interviewer gave him permission to move her around a little bit, his confidence has escalated, and this is extremely telling about his behavior. He is permission based and he definitely would not want anybody to know that. So his right hand is kind of holding a gun the whole time. You can see it kind of pushed into that position. I think that is pretty genuine. And he even goes through some of the dialogue almost nonsensically before the shooting reenactment. But he was taking charge over there because, A, he got permission from her first because he would not have otherwise done that. And then he started feeling more and more confident. And I think that helped him to sell the act. As far as a percentage goes on this one, I'm going to say a 61 that this crime did occur. Scott, what do you got? All right, I think he's that permission based guy because being in prison so long, you can't do anything without asking if it's OK to do it. In most cases, from what I understand, but he awkwardly moves her into that position and he begins imitating the guy that he murdered. But he doesn't give any upfront information. He doesn't give any much background on that at all. And then there's no reasoning behind why he shot him. There's no reason behind why they're arguing or arguing or why they're even there at that point. Then the awkwardness of all this just screams deception to me. And this is this. I think this is something he heard and he's repeating. I think it's a story he's that he thought might have been cool sounding, but I don't think he did it. That's and I think that I think it's 100 percent deceptive. I don't think it's true at all. I like it there. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is part of an act. Way back when if you think about something like guerrilla theater where you take shock and you involve somebody in the discussion so that now you can plant more information in their head. I think what he's doing here when he asked for permission, that has nothing to do with what he's doing. He's wanted to get his hands on her so he can engage her. This is Conman 101. He engages her physically and then she's part of the story. So it's easier for her to believe and she's awkward and not paying attention to all the details because she's feeling invaded. If a person does this to you, be very cautious because you're working something. If you ever notice like people on a bus who have ever been conned out of money, the guy gives them something to handle. It's Conman 101 to get you involved in the story.  I think a lot of those guys who do comedy and that kind of thing. It's this kind of thing to get them involved. They feel like it and I know there are people who do hypnosis and people who don't. I don't know anything about it. Just know when I watch them, I'm like, yeah, there's a lot of that engagement in some of these Scheister guys. Once you get that compliance, the person will start to believe it. We've talked about this before. If I can convince you that George Washington had wooden teeth and you don't believe me and then I prove I'm right, I'm always right. That whole primacy effect and all that kind of thing gives me authority. I think if you pay much attention to this guy, you would see he did this all the time. He puts his hands on people. He'd get away with whatever he could in this case. He clearly is not going to just casually reach out to this woman.   Here's I don't know Australian TV, but I've ventured to say this woman's probably a treasure of Australian TV. You're probably not going to manhandle her as much as you would without asking a question. I bet he's not going to ask that same question of everybody. Start paying attention when he says something and he's uncomfortable right afterward, he'll say, you know, you know, you know, start paying attention here because you'll start to see it. I'll give us about a 33 percent chance. It's true. I don't know where all the detail comes from. But look, again, this guy's been around.  He's clearly, clearly no saint. I mean, I read that he did horrific torture of these guys who are middle low level criminals and then would take make them pay him to stop, including things like cutting off fingers and toes. So the guys know he's no car boy, but certainly that doesn't mean he's done everything he says. What do you got? Yes, an interesting situation because, yes, she, the interviewer is a treasured Australian, though. So is Chopper, a treasured Australian. It's a good point in British terms.  He himself was an East End gangster primarily, but then an entertainer and you could actually, you know, you could get on one of his tours around the East End and have mad Frankie Fraser take you around and say, that's where, you know, that's where I shot Jack the Hat McVitie, or that's where I cut so and so's ears off. So we've got to understand that Chopper here has had films made about him. He's a celebrity. So when we see this manoeuvre, he's simply set it for my point of view. He's simply set in the stage because you'll see him clock the camera and go, are we in shots at the moment? So I think he knows enough about film TV stage to be able to go. Let's let's set up the the shot here. I would say my bias goes towards this is a true crime, because later on in another video, we'll see him not include anybody else and and act out the the crime in a way that cannot be or potentially is not accurate. Whereas here he's trying to create accuracy. You look, do the choreography.  So what else do we get from him? He gets into the feeling of the dialogue. He really kind of acts it out. And and and though he's not quite certain, he kind of is not quite certain what the other person said, he's kind of certain about the the feelings in there. And he doesn't have a lot of vocabulary for the feelings. But I think that's the kind of character he is. He wasn't around a lot of a detailed vocabulary around feelings. He would tend to just fill it in with kind of profanity along the way to show there was there was fear or love or aggression. It's all the same, you know, F word that will be used for basically any feeling that's going on, I would say. And again, you see that a lot in the east end of of London. You know, there's only there's one word for everything that you feel and do, essentially. OK, so so he has some detail here. And he doesn't have some detail here. But on a 50 50 bet, my bias would be towards there is some veracity. There is some truth to him being involved in this crime. Did it go exactly the way and we're going to see and somebody going down a shoot and, you know, he's an entertainer, so he's going to make a good story out of it. But is he involved in it? I'd say he's involved in it. The pub's keg seller became Dez Costello's temporary tune. And he's gone. When he's through, why are you laughing? There he goes. And that's it. Yeah, that's it. And you thought he was dead? Yeah, yeah. Dead as a doorknob as far as I was concerned. But he wasn't, was he? Well, the next morning he was still still a bit of a bit of a tackle. So what did you do then? Stepping on the front. We just went like that. Just took a bite, just a bit of a bit of it. That's all it took. Did you know that you had that in you? Then? Yeah, of course I did. Yeah. Blase and Brutal, the 17-year-old chopper and an accomplice carried the body of Dezman Costello a few blocks to dump it here in the shadow of what locals call the Collingwood Shot Tower. Police found his body, they just never found his murderer. Were you surprised that you got away with it? No. Why? There's no one around. No one, nothing. This is our bus five and the body, whatever it was, morning on in 1971 in Collingwood. So you don't think anyone saw you? Well, if they did see us, they turned their head quickly and went the other way. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so just one thing to pay attention to and go watch him doing stand up or whatever kind of thing that is.  He's doing the chain elephant here, which makes me red flag him, red flag him, red flag him. Whatever happened in that first part, he's more demonstrative in the chain elephant than he is in anything else he talks about. Then he goes, I don't think anybody saw me. That's good enough for me. I really don't believe him now, whether it's about all the story or just this part. Got what you got? All right, when she says, why are you laughing?  It's so awkward and it's really, really detailed and he's been really, really detailed up to this point, but this isn't detailed at all. He just tells the overview of what happened. He's got this continuous, weird, half-hearted laughter and again, that suggests he's repeating someone else's story. I think he heard what happened and I think he's repeating it at this point. And all of his answers are sketchy and they're really quiet. They're really kind of almost muffled and he's doing that mumbling thing as well. Then he says, when he says, I stepped on his throat, he's acting this out and he's doing it too weak. He would have done a stomp thing. He would have done something to make it more graphic. Especially if he's an actor, especially if he wants to get the point across. If he didn't do it, he doesn't feel good about it. I think his brain's saying, dude, we better chill out on this. You better cool down a little bit.  And then you... Chase, what do you got? Well, I need a percentage from you to be quick. Oh, I didn't think I needed to put one in there. Percent of truth. Look, for me to say 100%, nobody did anything. I'd say 90%, 90% he didn't. 10% he did. Okay. Yeah, I'm 100% he didn't. 100% I can't be sure of that. I'll kick it off with... I gave this one 15% truth. I think some elements are real. Some probably he heard in a story about somebody. There's artificial laughter, the confirmation glances back and forth just to make sure he's being listened to. And when he says this is dead as a doornail, he's looking away down the street. Way lower sense of self-confidence. And when he's saying I stepped on the guy's throat, this is just increased posturing. There's insecure arm movement, lowered self-confidence again. I don't think this detail is accurate at all. And when she says, did you know you had that in you? There's hesitancy. So here's how that's deceptive. Here are the deception indicators. A hesitation, a loss of fluency, which means we have trouble speaking clearly. Eye contact avoidance, confirmation glance, and the chain of elephant that Greg was just talking about. That's what we're talking about. If you ever hear us talk about clusters, that's the cluster of behavior that looks like deception for all of us. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so the laugh is a little bit of an issue. It does seem odd. We'll hear it further down the line as well. It'll come up again. We've got to understand that there's a personality type here that is a total outsider. And so there's going to be some odd, there's going to be some really odd behaviors going on here. Some really odd behaviors going on here. There isn't any passion in that stamp. You're absolutely right. And later on, we'll see some way more passionate performances. But these are still performances. And but they're just better passion. They're melodramatic almost. So is he devoid of feeling because it didn't happen? Or is it devoid of feeling because he is devoid of feeling? He doesn't have, again, a big vocabulary for ideas around feeling. We'll see him act out aggression and violence, but in a melodramatic way, a non realistic way. So look, there's an issue for me here in terms of I think because he doesn't really act this out very well. It's not very descriptive that I'm of the opinion that I'm not sure this part of the story happened. I'm pretty sure that he is part of something to do with this at the start. But it runs out of detail here. But I'm also at the same time going, he's not somebody who's going to have a lot of feeling that we would recognize. And so we'll probably be at a loss sometimes to go. Well, that's a bit unpassionate and a bit cold.  Ah, so so, yeah, I'm still I'm still over the 50 percent that he's something to do with this. But this stuff doesn't seem very accurate to me. What do you reckon has made you who you are, Mark? I don't know. But do you think that anything in your past, you know, the fact that you yourself were attacked as a five year old or six year old?  Do you think that shaped you? I've never stopped to to analyze the I've never stopped to analyze it. I've never I've never drawn or given it any great thought what what makes me tick. It really amuses me when other people say, oh, I know you. Why is that? Oh, I've spent so much time with you. I know you. We don't know what makes anyone tick. You know, we're everyone's a mystery to everyone and everyone is a mystery to themselves. I believe. All right, Chase, what do you got? I'm going to leave the body language to you guys on this one. But there is one thing here that I think is. It's amazing. It's a revelation that's such a perfect example of psychology in general. Right here, we hear him saying, no one knows anyone else. Everybody's a mystery to everyone, and we're all a mystery to ourselves. I've paraphrased that. So this shows one powerful tool that you can use today right away. If you want to know what other people secretly feel about themselves and the world, ask them what they think most people feel and how most people behave because we tend to think everybody else is just like us. So that he thinks that should make sense to someone else. So we're hearing his inability here to understand himself, which is real and his lifelong inability to get to know somebody else despite spending these long hours with them. He can't understand the idea at all.  No one can possibly get to know somebody. We are all a mystery.  But only when people are looking and only when it serves his reputation and his desire to appear to be a certain way because he's continually having to define himself because he struggles with that. And that's going to come up here in just a few minutes. Scott, what do you got?  And I think he wants to say something or he's thinking about saying something. And he makes an expression that indicates pain as he's going back and forth a little bit there, almost swaying back and forth. It gives the answer a lot of thought. And then but he also has a lot of of eye blocking and he scratched his head as an adapter. I think that that whole thing really bothered him as it would think about something that horrible from your childhood like that. Then I think at that point he's moving forward and he starts speaking from the heart. And I think this is the first time we see him be himself. And he's he's speaking with sadness and concern. Again, we see that blend of of emotions there or expressions at that point. But I think this is the first time we're actually seeing him be himself. And he's seeing, you know, almost, no, I'm not going to say stoic, but he seemed like he was really being honest at that point. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, Chase, one of my notes says the last statement speaks volumes when he says everyone is a mystery to themselves because he needs approval so badly. If I'm in the room with him and I'm trying to get him to talk and I know that, I'm going to say, wait a minute, what do you mean? You mean you're you're impulsive and unpredictable or would you say unhinged? I would go after him to show that he has no control over who he is and that all this bad boy he thinks he is just the product of and polk on him for that because he does show some emotion in this one. As a matter of fact, one of the more interesting things I've seen in a while, I'll go back to her. Tara, I blocks just thinking about his past before she talks about him being hurt as a child or being attacked as a child. I believe when he says I've never stopped to analyze it. I believe him wholeheartedly because he does the who knows face or what I would say the who to thunk it face.  His his lower lip pushes up in the center.  That's up. I never even considered. So I do believe what he's saying there.  And there's probably underneath there, some guy who is sitting and going, well, what could I have done differently? But he has to keep up this image, this manufactured process in order for him to keep his reputation, for him to keep in front of people and probably to sell books and everything else. Now, it's the end of his life. He's probably also having, regardless of what he says later, probably also having some thoughts about his life. People don't go introspective the way he did if they don't have any internal thought about self and things they've done wrong. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so obviously what he's saying that isn't rational if or or or links with any decent philosophy or belief system that you can't know another person somewhat, I mean, in their entirety. Yeah, OK, that's a stretch, but somewhat and you cannot know yourself somewhat. Well, his philosophy is he he doesn't believe in the idea of relationships at all and doesn't believe in the ability for anybody to do introspection.  He really has put himself in a tiny, tiny percentage of people that are going to discount completely being able to understand anything about another human being and anything about themselves. It's a massive blanket statement. Of course, it's it is, you know, be nice to delve into the body language.  It's like, OK, well, that's what we're dealing with now. Then is it like, that's quite a that's quite an outside a character we've got now. And so what are what else are they going to be capable of if they're capable of that extreme belief system who all get left with is this person is at an extreme because I believe him. I do believe that he thinks you can't know anything about anybody else or yourself. What an extremely isolated place to be in. You probably couldn't be more isolated than that. He'll have spent some time in isolation as well. I imagine which is true human isolation. Anyway, that's all I got on that one. You guys are calling me out of it. I just feared you were sitting there having a moment. Never know. Yeah, I don't think just. I'm trying to look like I'm getting out of there. But the violence, you know, and what? Absolute fascination with guns. Where did that come from? What violence? There's no violence in shooting someone. There's no violence. There's no blood spurting out all over the kitchen.  You've jumped on people's heads. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  No, I...  Only weeks before his death, Chopper still had the energy to theatrically make his chilling point. Is that camera following me?  Well, on the edge of the gutter.  Ooh, right on the edge of the gutter. Bang, that's violent. That's violent. You start seeing the blood roll out. That's violent. That's an act of violence. And that's... You're starting on an act of violence there. That's getting towards an act of violence in my book. All right, Chase, what do you got?  The facial expressions discussed in this interviewer are chef's kiss, amazing, this is pure.  She is witnessing a little boy who's trying to impress her. And I think she thinks that this display of artificial toughness is maybe a little cute. And I think he wants to appear tough so he calls it violent. Then maybe that's not really tough so he backs it down a notch. That's an act of violence. Then he backs it down a notch. That's starting out an act of violence. Then there's a little more back down that's getting towards an act of violence. Then he realizes the silliness. So he distances one more time in my book. So I think he's then embarrassed and wants to check the camera and kind of shifts his body so he can be observed for a second. This is towards the end of the clip. Not when he asks, is that a camera following me? Right at the end of the clip, when he shifts his body language, this is so the camera and the interviewer, Tara, can observe him for a second. It's his opportunity to be observed after all of this grandiose stuff. Now you can take a look at me and just get a good look. Mark, I have to go with you after this one. So, yeah, this is directly from the book of Mark Chopper Reed. And I've not read any of his children's books, though, you know, I feel ashamed that I didn't introduce my kids to them because I'm sure they're wonderful, wonderful pieces of outsider art. So, yeah, look, there's no gradations to him at all. Like, you know, in the earlier video around the crime, we see almost kind of nothing happening. Like, ah, I just caved in your head to this one, which is like, ah, it's a German expressionist. It's Nosferatu, it literally is. If you go and look at those images of the film Nosferatu, you will see those hands. So I think he's directly mirroring stuff that he's seen in horror films. And that doesn't mean he's had to have seen Nosferatu because that is one of the earliest horror films and everything, every vampire film after that does those hands because it's the germ of every horror film that ever happened pretty much. There are some examples of others. But so there's no gradations in him. He clocks the camera again to say, am I gonna get in shot on this one? It's a barnstorming German expressionist performance. I would say, I've not seen his show, but I would say this is from his show. This is pretty Australianism because it's that crocodile Dundee moment of that's not a knife, this is a knife. Like, that's not violence. This is violence, ah, it's just genius. It's brilliant, it's brilliant. I don't think anything like that happened. But I think it's act. But it does tell us something that he can't reproduce anything of what potentially was his violence at the time. It's a film version of it. It's a mock-up, it's a mockery of it, which is, again, extraordinary. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right, yeah, you guys have covered pretty much everything. This is where he attempts to get, to give the impression that he believes stabbing and shooting aren't violent acts. This is all acting, like you're saying. We're seeing, like you were saying, Chase, these large expressions of concern, disgust and false concern through all this. I think you're right, he's trying to impress her and trying to, nothing, he's gonna start dating or anything, but he wants to look cool in front of her. So I think he's trying to look all really tough and bad and stuff, but it's just, it's not working for him. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, we're all on the same page. Chase, I called it incremental bad-assery. I will, it's not really, well, maybe, well, it's according to me. He just keeps adding that little gradation. And more importantly, he fishes for the opportunity. It's actually pretty good theater when I watch it because he uses a provocative statement in body language to get her to ask a question when he goes, he does a condemning brow. So she will fish and say, what do you mean it's not? And when she does respond, then he goes, he eye blocks, he intentionally stammers and stutters over her. And when he says, what violence, he's now going to get his chance to go and talk about his bad-assery. This is showman, this is all, everything he's doing here is part of a show, I agree with you Mark, whether he's done it on the stage or somewhere else, he's had it in his head for a while. And she, I love her disgust as well. It's a beautiful thing. And then he goes into this whole thing about saying, well, it is, this is not violent. This is violent and then he gets up and does more of that same theater involving you in the theater again. And then he needs you to feel that he's violent. And when you don't, he's got to go back and finish that last thing and finish the opportunity out when he says, well, that's according to me. Beautiful piece of theater. That's all I think we're seeing. The secret to winning a war is to love something. Your enemy doesn't like it. My enemy didn't even like being in jail. I loved it. My enemy didn't like being in haste vision. I loved it. My enemy didn't like having to get up every Monday morning and watch for low-flying pocket knives and low-flying hammers and whether they're gonna get attacked that day and who did have to attack that day to survive. I loved it, right? Did you really love it? Well, I loved the cut and thrust of all this sort of stuff going on in jail. Hi, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is more of the show. He's got a manifesto he's selling. His body language is doing it because this is something he said before. This might even be right from his stage act, Mark, when you were talking about it earlier. He conditioned the questions. When he says, did you really love it? He says, when she says that, he goes, I love the uh and he stammers off a little bit. Interestingly, he's exactly wrong. You don't win wars by loving war. You win wars by being done with it. None of us want to be shot. We all want to shoot the other guy. That's not part of what you get. But I do get his point. He's trying to say I was good at it. I was like a pig and that's why I was better at it. It's his manifesto and he's just reinforcing what he's saying. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, totally agree with him. And none of us wants to love war more than the other person. Like General Pat said, it's about making the other person die for their country, not about dying for yours. So this is just a childish display of behavior here to appear tough that you might see in like a 15 year old. And I think this might be just when he stopped maturing. And you can hear him say, I loved it, right? But this large inhale to make his point that this is selling and not telling. And when she calls him out on it, she says, did you really love it? There's instantaneous back peddling, rephrasing, confirmation glances back to the interviewer, a loss of fluency, which is when it's more difficult for us to speak. And then a spike in ambiguity. So this has hallmarks of deception and the hallmarks of kind of an immature, tough kid appearance exterior of a tough kid. Mark? Yeah, I think he's trying to put forward the idea that he's written the art of war. It's, you know, maybe it was in the library and maybe in a little bit of it. And he saw a little bit of it. And when I've got a version of that in my head, I reckon I, yeah, you've got to love things more than anyway, it's a complete mess because his negative of the enemy gesture is the same as his positive of him gesture. What I would expect if it really were an antithesis is you'd have the negative of the enemy and you'd have something different for you because it's different what's happening. It would be in a strongly different place and a whole different kind of gesture mechanism. He doesn't have any of that. So he's making this stuff up as the idea of being erudite in, you know, the art of war according to the book of Chopper. Now, what comes out of it for me, though, is that his idea of he loves the cut and thrust and there's a delay in that. He loves the cut and thrust and all this sort of stuff. So he hasn't got words for it. He hasn't got words for it. But in that culmination of not being able to find the words and not being able to find the gestures for it, what I see is quite chaotic gestures. I would put forward what he loves is the chaos of it because basically everything he does is ultimately antisocial and society, all societies are structures. There are no societies that are chaotic. They are structured in some way. Just some of them look chaotic to us because we're not part of that society. He loves the chaos that comes when you put somebody with an antisocial personality like himself into the rest of society. It's mayhem. When you put that antisocial personality into his society, he's just another criminal who does stuff that criminals have to do, like stick to certain rules, kill somebody if they've fallen out of line, not feel too much about stuff. He's good at the rules of criminal. He's not good at the rules of the rest of society. And he's fallen in love somewhat with that chaos. So I got on that one. Scott, what do you think? I think you guys are right. I think he lives by this. I think this is what he tells everybody. It's his thing to say because he's using these big old illustrators. And it's coming out of a pretty good clip. His volumes up, his diction is about as clear as it's been up to this point. His eye contact is hard and it's direct. And he keeps it, keeps that happening with her. And when he's doing that, that arm thing, his arm goes to the right and left, right, left. When he makes his final point, it goes down at an angle. That's the only difference is I've seen there is going back and forth and then down like that. And I think this is the first true excitement we've seen coming out of him. I mean, really from the heart excited about something because he's told this story before. Be it to a cellmate, be it to a group of people who are like, oh, what do you think? Or when he's on a stage thing or whatever he's doing, I think that's the thing that he sells.  All that time he spent in prison, it gives the impression that he was in control of it. And that he felt like this about it. He liked doing it. Even though they didn't like it, he was above that. And he liked it. And he liked the thrust and all that stuff in there. I think it's his attempt to be his, like you were saying, Greg, his manifesto or his creed to go in there and be like, yeah, I was all about prison. Well, what are you gonna say? I hated it the whole time. It was horrible.  I asked somebody to cut my ear. What are you gonna say at that point? So I think all you guys are right. I think this is just something he's, what are you gonna do at that point? He's gonna try to make the best of it. So to say he was comfortable. We good? Yeah. Very good. Until now, Chopper has always claimed the shooting was in self-defense. That Sammy the Turk was armed and part of a drug dealing gang that wanted to get rid of Chopper, the standover man. I was taking their money. I was driving the western suburbs crazy, you know? I was standing over a body virtually half of them and taking their money. They didn't like it. You know? But on the night he shot him, Sammy the Turk didn't pull a gun on Chopper. He was unarmed. When I killed Sammy the Turk, that wasn't self-defense. That was outright murder. Sorry, it shouldn't be swearing, but that was outright murder. I told the armourry squad that night that it was self-defense.  They got rocks in the head. But the jury did believe Chopper and he was acquitted. Everyone swallowed it. I couldn't understand. The next thing the jury would come back and say, not guilty. I didn't go cheer, cheer. I just dumbfounded as the jury walked out. I'm still looking. Do they say not guilty? I couldn't believe it. Not guilty for that. God, I'm muddy. Thank God you can't be tried twice. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so earlier I talked about the who to thunk it move where the guy did all the mouth draw down, the chin boss. This is not that move. This is an illustrator for a throwaway story that he is, I think what he's doing here is severity hardening, Chase.  I don't think he went there playing it a hit. The guy probably got into a bind with the guy and shot him. I mean, I think somewhere in the middle here because his body language is not that of a person who's like, yeah, I killed him and it was not a drive down. There's uncertainty in his face. He does show surprise that everyone believed it and that's good surprise. And he shows skepticism with that one brow up. So interesting, I think this is more storytelling somewhere is somewhere in the middle as to whether he went there to kill him or he went there to do something. When he's talking about, I've been taking their money. He had taken drug dealers and smaller criminals and tortured them in exchange for, he would torture them until they gave him enough money to stop. So he made a business side and that's how he got a bind. That's what he got. Yeah, most of this is fake. It just doesn't fit his tough guy narrative that we've been talking about. All the same behaviors you've heard for the last few videos. Scott. I'm with you guys. It's a little bit odd. Everything looks the way it should as illustrators are letting where they should and how they should, but it's just, it's a little weak. Even at me, that's the thing. This guy is like, he's over here, but he's over here. One video before we learned what the truth is. It looks like he's lying, but then it almost looks like it's honest in the second one. I don't know, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I think for me, when he's being honest, I think he doesn't take the part of the other person in there. In this one, he takes the part of the other person. You know, in the earliest video where I think he's being honest about the first part of this murder, he actually makes somebody the other character in it. And for me, that's a good attachment to say, look, I wasn't that person, you be that person over here. Here he's got a great opportunity to map out for us what the other person did. The interviewer here isn't just an interviewer. It isn't just a woman for him to kind of play up to and go, I got a woman here, let me play up, let me put up bravado. This is the representative of 60 Minutes Australia, which is not only a massive show in Australia, but here we are in Canada, the US, the UK, all across the world. We are taking apart a show that's made in Australia. This is a massive world hit. I think he knows that. I think he knows, sure he's been in, you know, he's had films made about him, he's written books, but 60 Minutes Australia is big league.  So he's going to go out on a bang. Of course we were kidnapping him and taking the money and all the rest of it, but basically that was it. We just kidnapped him and take him, bash him and smash him and bash him and smash him, and give him a good eye and then let him go. This violence that you have in you, the rage that you have in you, did you... I'm not a rage, he's not a rage. Did you learn it or were you born with it, dear Reckon? Oh, I don't know. I don't know, I... What does your family think of your line of work? My father was. He was tickled pink, he'd roll around the floor laughing. And my mother was horrified into absolute denial. She just used to say that she was no relative of mine. She thought you were mad, didn't she? Yeah, she always blamed me to be insane, you know? Yeah. All right, Chase, what do you got? This is the exact description of what he's just assured us violence is and that he is not. So I want you to watch these eyebrows after he says, let them go. This is a classic stare of waiting to see if a story was bought by the other person. He gets no reaction. So you can see them soften and it's perfectly timed. After about one second, you can see the eyebrows softened up. The acting is somewhere between Power Rangers and General Hospital in this one here. Greg? Yeah, I don't know if I'd give him that much credit. This might become foo movies. Acting, because his timing is about as accurate. The bash him and smash him. That sounds like it comes straight, straight, straight from a stage play. Look, I bash him and smash him. And then he's got filler. They're just throwaway words. This is just stuff for him to be able to say something when he's rolling along. However, when he's asked the question about born with it or was it something he learned? He goes into internal voice for one of the best we'll ever see. Guys, we always talk about internal voice when a person's having this kind of conversation with self and they're looking down to the left and thinking. There's nine seconds of him doing that, followed by a skeptic eyebrow raise. And then he shows, she actually shows some emotional eye accessing.  It's really interesting to watch her. She has him in actual contemplation we haven't seen to now. And so you get to a point where you're wondering what's inside this guy? How much of this is bravado? How much of this is how much pain? How much lack of trust? How much of all the rest of those things that you didn't see are actually going on? At one point, when she gets from this point where he's in contemplation, he's got his face broken away and he doesn't actually see her face do that look that he so much desires. I think part of his entire thing that you got that mark to get a reaction from people and then he plays on it. When he says, my mother thought I was insane. He does kind of a look of maybe I am, maybe a dismissal thing, but he genuinely looks like it matters to him that his mother thought that his voice tone, his cadence, both shift and soften when he's talking about his mother. Very different speech patterns. Go back and listen to it. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just a few behavioral things. Clearly he's not connected at all with the idea of rage or violence wants to discount that completely. We got that moment there of meet the parents. We got one parent who thinks the son's violence is hilarious and another parent who thinks he's mad. That's not a good combination. So it doesn't excuse this man's behavior, but often when you look at the parents, you go, well, that's not a surprise. Is it that this human being occurred? Now, tattoos, they're always interesting. We had a lovely kind of shot of the tattoos and often they're used as social proof to go, look, I'm part of this team, part of this group. I've never seen tattoos like maybe I don't see enough tattoos and I don't see enough Australian prison tattoos, but that's nothing like I would have expected of tattoos. They're kind of quite beautiful and kind of like a style at night across his chest or some kind of wavy. It's quite childish in a way. Not what I would expect at all. It's rather like my grandmother used to sell wallpaper and it just reminds me of some of the 1970s, 1980s wallpaper patterns and I don't know why.    I'm not sure. Scott, what do you got on this one? Yeah, well, apparently you don't know about those, but I've seen that picture of you at the beach where you have that big eagle on there and it's Greg's head, his face is on the eagle's face and he's got a rose in his mouth. I've seen that and it's on the net somewhere. You're not supposed to show that. Yeah, I'm not real. We may enhance. But Google it, you'll find it. And you guys are right, the interviewer, she's showing this doubt and being unsure about what he's talking about. I don't think she believes this at all. And then when he starts talking about his childhood where his father was a criminal and his mother, you know, he didn't say his father was a criminal, but I would guess that's what was going on. And because he thinks what he's doing is funny, apparently his father was fairly violent with him when he was a child and his mother's disowned him. That's what he's saying anyway. That's where we're seeing these expressions of pain and grief and eye blocking when he's talking about his mother, saying that stuff about him.  It looks like he's been slapped or something. So I think he's trying to block that out because that's got to be painful for him. You know, that vision of his mom saying that stuff or at least thinking that stuff as he goes through it. You guys cover everything, so that's all I got. Chopper was only months away from going back to prison, this time for shooting Bikie Boss Sid Collins. Because he was the national president of our limousine club, I was supposed to donate $8,000 to his wedding. So all the people that will come out of the wedding, the main people, had to bring eight grand.  I don't even know how to ride a motorbike.    And is that why you shot him? Yes. What more do you need? Bang, get a bit of that in there. And then you had him driven to hospital. Well, I said, do you want one of the brain? No. And I said, when you go under the lemon tree or out into the hospital, do you tell them people? No, you don't tell them people? You stick solid? Yes. Won't they give me up? No. All right, good. So we can take you to hospital and you remain silent? Yes. Word on that? Yes. I believe you. Righty-o. Take him to hospital. But Sid Collins broke this baffling criminal code by going to police. Chopper spent the next six years here at Wisden Prison. All right, Mark, where'd he go? Just some themes that are coming up in this, which I think is interesting and kind of marks him out as under that umbrella of anti-social personality disorder because we have ideas of codes, fairness, honesty. Social events are talked about, retribution. So all of those things are actually quite social, aren't they? You know, you've got to have a code to be part of society. Yeah, absolutely. Fairness, that's important for being in a society. And he mentions this idea or certainly eludes this idea of fairness, honesty, if you've got to be honest, if you want to be part of a society, social events. If you're part of a society, you show up at social events or you may have ideas about social events and then retribution. If people don't do the right thing at social events, like give you a bill for eight grand, then retribution is clearly going to be. So look, when we talk about, you know, an anti-social behavior or personality, often within their own group, it's actually quite social. Like in his mind, all he's doing is paying back fairly what should be paid to somebody when they go and ask you for an eight grand to show up to a wedding, yeah? You punish them for that because it isn't fair. It's not honest and it's not the code that's expected. Now to us as outsiders, I mean, it's interesting, this guy was a one percenter.  So yeah, he's one of those groups called themselves the one percenters because they see themselves as the one percent who are outside of society. Well, even for Chopper, he reckoned you're way outside of society. You've done exactly the wrong thing by charging me eight grand. Now you need punishing. So that's how far out of society Chopper is. He's outside of even the one percent. He won't even join in with the eight grand to the outsiders. He's an outsider of even the outsiders. He's way out there. One extraordinary character, only in Australia, I reckon. Greg, what do you got on this one? I'll bet we could probably find one of those somewhere other than Australia. I might have lived next door to one of these guys, not known it. So he does that. He does a lot of bluster. This guy needs to be recognized as he's just so cool. I mean, the reason he shot him is because he asked for eight thousand and I don't even ride a motorcycle. That's really the reason. But he knows his way when he thinks he scored a point and he's not sure you got it. That, you know, pay attention to it because you know, you know, that's just a way for him to double check and make sure you understand that he just said something kind of flippant and funny and cool and blip might be the word we should use for him. His conversation is illustrating and he doesn't have filters when he's going through what happened and why I shot him in that. So I believe it. This is one of those where you can see it and believe it because he's going on about why I did it and what he did.  He'll say something. That's a pretty good indicator. This is normal conversation. He's not trying to just run down there. But again, even when he's telling the truth, he's got to have the chop off act. So that's what I got. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, this sounds and looks honest for the most part, but the part of find questionable is when he's explaining there was a conversation about where he should shoot this guy and he's talking to him about it. That makes no sense. I've never heard that before in my life. Anybody say, no, do you want me to shoot you in the head?  What do you want?  It's you, man. Please tell me. It's all about you. That's not going to happen. And I think he made that up in prison. So it would sound cool. We gave him a story to tell what happened. Now here's what happened, because he got nailed for it and he's in prison. And it didn't seem like that big a deal. So I think to be the big deal he was, I think that's what had to happen. I think he had to make something up. But his laughter is back, his illustrator is really small and they're close to his body. That's another part of that bothers me. I feel like it's true because he shot the guy. But the story, like we've heard coming along, he's just adding things to it. These qualifiers, all these fabrications, exaggeration of what actually happened to make himself sound cooler. Chase, what do you got? I think there's some truth to this one. And I don't think the discussion happened at all like this. I think he didn't die from a single bullet and Chopper was about to finish it, but the guy begged or something else happened. The only fluctuations in the story are around this exact detail. There's a distinct drop in his fluency and all of his movements around this detail. He's got to have a story to make him sound cool.  That doesn't happen when you get shot in the belly. Most of the time, actually, when you get shot in the belly, you don't die unless days and days go by you develop some kind of septicemia or something. So I think it was an accident that he didn't finish it. He thought the death was gonna happen and some kind of thing ensued afterward that doesn't make him look like a badass. So something else was invented. That's all I got. It just sucks a lot when you get shot in the stomach.  Yeah, about 10 years later, yeah. You track him down in Casino. No, no, no, no. We're in Casino, New South Wales, doing a talk night. A talk night, me and Jacko doing a talk night. Who do you think comes up to me after the talk night and wants me to sign a piece of memorabilia? Hello? Hello, Trevor. You sign this? I can't believe this. What are you doing here? Oh, Bologna's a Bologna's? Who do you sign this? I'm not signing anything with you. I'm not signing anything. I can't even believe it, you know? And I'll see you backstage. I can't even talk to you backstage. He was there. Oh, couldn't believe it.  Off his head on cocaine. Right. And so what happened then? Oh, I can tell you what happened then.  And I shot him the last time with his gun.   I shot him the first time with his gun. I shot him the second time with his gun.    Oh, yeah, this time I was shooting to kill him. Last time he just got it in the guts and tripped the hospital. Very Christian, last time. No, this time, bang. Why did you murder him? Because he was unabsolute to it. All right, Chase, what do you got? This is some bizarre behavior here. This, we're seeing this unflinching need for recognition and approval from the interviewer. And I don't think this is true whatsoever. I'm gonna walk you through just a sample of what's in this clip. And I wish I had time to walk you through all the details, but I think you'll get most of it. I'm just gonna give you the body language names of everything here without explaining it to you like a course. Here we go. There's fidgeting going through the roof here. There's continuous looks off camera. There's a break from bait, which is a huge break from baseline. There's a vocal pitch way higher than normal, increased speed, increased rate of speech, loss of fluency, detailed spikes, avoiding the exact question, increased bodily rigidity, a humorous freeze, this arm comes in here for fear. There's digital flexion, multiple spikes in hesitancy, hiding time, large postural shift during the beginning of the answer, immediate postural retreat after the answer of admission of killing. There's postural swaying during the increasing vocal pitch. That's deception. Scott, what do you got? I agree with you. And when he's answering, you're already posted legs in his arms tightened up. His cadence is way too fast. There's way too many pauses in there. And there's that odd laughter again. And then the second half, he makes too much strong eye contact. And he's moving around and squishing around too much. The whole thing seems off. He's mumbling about 25, 30% of the time. He's uncomfortable. And he skips over the details of the actual shooting and just says, bang, bang, bang. That's just, this doesn't work for me at all. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, he does hard eye contact under the brow with his chin down. We typically associate the chin down with throat protection, usually when you're trying to hide something that. He's signaling some of the right stuff. He's signaling that he's incredulous. The only thing he's missing is gas, right?  The narrowing of the mouth and widening of the eyes, I think I associate with anger, residual, some kind of displeasure. If the guy did show up, this might be what he'd wish he had done. And then there's disgust at he wants me to sign a piece of memorabilia. You can see his nose up and both sides of his mouth are down. He's emphatic. The only thing that is interesting to me and makes me think there's a possibility is he is real and emphatic and not jovial as he calls a guy a real turd, an absolute turd. That part makes me go, hmm, is it just anger? And some of that stuff did play out. Maybe it's causing him to behave this way. Don't know. But what I do see here is all the markers that we typically associate with deception and his baseline has changed. I still believe he could have some involvement, but maybe things don't play out the way he talks about them. He could have the guy whacked because, could have done something himself because, and a lot of this provado and stuff that goes with it didn't happen. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. The absolute turd bit is pretty honest. And I think that comes from, not that I know anything about the guy who is calling that, but he feels it's honest. And I think that comes from the idea that he's cleaning up society. He's cleaning up. And that speaks to me about a psychopathic trait there, often with people who would fall under that umbrella. There can be a sense of, I am just doing this to make the world a better place, cleaning up the excrement that is the rest of living human beings out there. There's also themes here of paranoia. I think his theme of paranoia is absolutely true. I think he is paranoid. There's themes of entertainment. He's wholly entertaining. I think that's honest and true for him. He does like to entertain. The theme there of the absurdity of the situation and the irony of the situation that this guy would show up and ask for an autographed copy. Did it happen? Did it not happen? It doesn't really matter because it's just ironic and absurd and therefore entertaining and shows a breaking of a code. Clearly it's the code of, if you're a criminal, if you're one percenter, you do not show up to ask for somebody's autograph. You just don't do that. And if you do that, you deserve being cleaned up out of this society. Here's what I love is that this new story, he starts to look to camera on the punch lines.   Because I assume this is the moment where he's confessing and he would have done that in a theater piece unless he can say, well, I wrote it, I'm making it up. Maybe he could. So maybe he has done it in a theater piece.  And he looks to the camera like, and where's Mike? Because that's the awful thing. If you're used to doing comedy in theaters and then you start doing comedy on TV, like you see it with performers all the time when they've done it in theaters and then now doing it in the studio. It's like, yeah, that camera won't laugh back.  Well, he doesn't get any laughter back. So he plays the line again, which is beautifully naive and he doesn't get a laugh the second time either. So yeah, for me, it's an act but with some strong themes that are real for him. Cleaning up the world and paranoia about who's in it and loving to entertain and enjoying the absurdity and the irony of this outsider lifestyle. What did you do with the body?  Whereabouts was that? I could see in a New York Wiles. Can you be more specific? You see in a New York Wiles, I'm not gonna get, I'm digging it up for you. I couldn't dig it up for you and myself.  About 50 feet away from a football label on the other side of a big mound of bloody dirt. That's all I remember. Do you reflect on that at all? I mean, you know, his son told police he was missing, reported he was missing. There's a family there looking for a dad who's no longer around. Any remorse, any sort of reflection on that? No, no, none at all. None at all. None at all. Absolutely none at all. None at all.  It doesn't feel anything at all. Nothing. An adrenaline rush? No, didn't feel a thing. I didn't get no adrenaline rush, nothing. Fear? No, nothing. No sense of fear. No sense of... ...foreboding or anything like that, nothing. Sense of power? No, no, no sense of power. I think a lot of that's all. Since looking over your shoulder did anyone see it? That's about it. What do you expect me to say? Man, that's too bad. All right, Greg, what do you got? Well, first, just listen to the guy's cadence. Everything, look, in the last one I was saying, well, maybe he's involved in some way. Well, this cleans it up. Yeah, no. This guy, when you listen to that first thing, chin down, throat protecting, listen to his cadence drift off. He says, I would forget. I would forget. He's trying to come up with a reason why he doesn't know where the body's at and touches his face for the first time in every video we've seen. We usually associate that with trying to comfort self. And sometimes when we're thinking, but usually when you're doing something right, it was bloody somewhere near. And then he progressively gives more and more vague detail. It was somewhere near football field. Well, 50 feet from a football field, 50 yards from a football field, oh, by a pile of dirt, all progressively more vague and less disclosing. His blink rate as he's doing that is through the roof. Right here, you think he's making it up because everything's changing. And then my other, my favorite part of the whole thing, he does none at all. And then his arms cross and he starts doing the kind of the chained elephant in his chair while denying he feels anything. He does lip compression at no foreboding. And then when she says, what do you expect me to say? Or when he says, what do you expect me to say? My notes, what I said is a lot less. It feels like you're negotiating and filling in the list of other feelings she hasn't considered. If you don't feel anything, you wouldn't be listing off the feelings that other people have because you don't know what they are. He already told us that. So I think this is BS. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, the bits that I don't think of BS is his mockery of empathy. There's, there's that. Yeah, I'll just call it that. Mockery of empathy and his resignation, that sigh that he does this resignation to not having any feelings about this. Now that's not to say he doesn't have any feelings whatsoever. But I would suggest they are so shallow and out of touch that for him, it just doesn't feel like he has, he has feelings like are required for him. There's definitely a feeling of paranoia. I think the looking over your shoulder, that's a true feeling that he has. And, you know, just because you're not, just because your paranoia doesn't mean they're out to get you and people would be out to get him many, many times. Yeah, that's all I got on that one. Scott, what do you got? I think this one's interesting because it's the first time we've seen making one up on the fly. I think he's just got the opening and said, all right, here we go. And he's just telling the story.  He starts adapting on his mouth. His illustrators are minimal and his cadence is really fast. His tone is high. And he's got way too many additives to what he's talking about, way too many qualifiers. And those are actually late when he adds them. He's got too much strong eye contact, which is similar to some of the videos we've seen before. So I think he's just making this up. I don't think there's any big deal here. As far as validity goes, I don't think there is any at this point. Chase, what do you got? That's fake. Y'all got it all. That's a little technical, but I think what Chase is saying, all right, well, let's go around the room and talk about what we think we've seen in about 30 seconds or less and wrap it up. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, great, great entertainer in the mold of all of those gangland entertainers where we are looking for the most socially unacceptable acts to hear about, to look at, to hear the stories of. And I think it's what he's trying to give us. Has he been involved in, well, obviously we know he's been involved in extremely violent acts, that's for sure. And has he been involved in murders? Undoubtedly, undoubtedly he has. Are they as he maps out in these? No, these are beautiful exaggerations for our entertainment. He's an entertainer. This film's about him, he's on 60 Minutes. He's an entertainer. Quite delightful in some ways, in some other ways, not at all. But that's the allotropic nature of it.  That's the bedlam, that's the horror of it. You know you shouldn't look, but you have to. Chase, what do you think? Yeah, this is just a classic example of an emotionally stunted individual who wants to rewrite the past to make himself tougher. No doubt he's had a rough life, I'm sure. He's involved lots of criminal behavior, but so much of this is just false. The details that I believe are fabricated tell us a pretty sad story of a man who feels insignificant and weak. And this new diagnosis that he's dealing with right now might be a part of the reason for this need to rewrite what went on in his life. I think there's a lot more to his behavior than whatever is causing the jaundice here, but it's a boy in a man's body who didn't grow up all the way, still wanting to gain respect through shock value and toughness. And I think it's a good reminder for all of us to just drop the mask more often and just live it out in front of our eyes when we're around people. And it's a good example of what it might look like when we're just behind our eyes trying to modify perceptions all the time. Greg?  He's done horrific things to people. The interesting piece is that he chose most of his violence to be against people who live outside society to start with so they can't go get help. I mean, that's an interesting turn of events when a person is praying on other people who pray on other people. You might think of that as a hero until you hear some of the stuff he did. And then I think he's a Joe Pesci character. You know, Joe Pesci in any criminal movie is over the top. Good fellows, go watch it. Even the guys around him, he ends up getting killed because he's so crazy. And if you're making yourself out to be that crazy, you're grandizing in that environment. Remember, we're talking about Maslow.  You just keep adding to it. Probably people just who knew him would know a lot of that and you would get words from them. But then he became famous. And once people are famous, then you know that they're going to be aggrandized by people who knew them as well. So, look, I think most of this is just bluster and an image and a stage act. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I think this is a great example of watching someone who has had, at the beginning of their life, it was fairly exciting because he was being violent, being a tough guy and all that. As he got older and got sick or started losing his health, he's like you guys were saying, he's got to end, have a great ending for his third act. Is it three acts, Mark, or four? Three. Okay, so the ending of the third act has to be this big, the big closer. As he said at the beginning, when he was talking about that, the last picture show. So I think he knows that and subconsciously he's playing all that out, trying to make himself look cool and trying to make himself look tougher because that's all he's got. He's leaving some books, some kids books, no one is going to read. And I think that's all he's got in a movie. He's got a good rap album. Does he really? It's not on Spotify, so it didn't hit bigs. Okay, so yeah, yeah. So I think that's what it is. I think it's just a poor old guy who was mean and has, like Mark will say, he's got psychopathic tendencies.  I think he's really, I think he's a hardcore criminal and I think he lived the life of that and paid the consequences of that.  You know, or when he dies, probably alone. Gosh, how depressing to end something like that. But I'm sure things are better now for him. You know? Well, I'm sure that the Mad Charlie story is much more, you know, joyous and upbeat. You know, if we could find out what happened. I'll go, I'll try to find Mad Charlie. That'll be our future story. That'll be the next one. You went a minute 20, that was not 30 seconds. I'm sorry. Dang it, sorry man. I went on, but oh well, all right. All right fellas, I think this was a good one and we'll see you next time. So what do you got?