Greetings, everyone in the room and everyone on Zoom. This is the Ward 5 neighborhood planning assembly for December 15. I want to note that our next meeting is January 19 third of the January 19.  Partly because of the Democratic caucus being at exactly the same time. My name is Andy Simon. I am on Ward 5. In the steering committee and we are currently being joined by several other members of the steering committee, Nancy Stetson, Terry Rivers, Julie Clark, Joe Mary. And I see that David Shine is joining us tonight too. We're ably assisted by Sam Heinrich from CEDO and by Charlie Ginoni from Channel 17. So, and we have a couple more people in the room here. Otherwise it would be kind of lonely. But let's start with the slides, if we could. Just as a little introduction to our, to our meeting. Welcome to the Ward 5 NTA. This is our lovely logo made by Amy Radcliffe of Gotham City Graphics. We could you move on to the next one. So we have some guiding principles. Our guiding principles are creating a safe space and a welcoming forum for people being accessible in every way that that's possible. Minimizing barriers physically and literally to get everybody involved. We try to be successful, respectful of everyone and that needs cultural, economic, political differences, different perspectives. We try to keep a vitality about it, though it's harder, we're only a couple of people, but we'll still do it. And we do not endorse political candidates. We're resolutely non-political. Next slide please. These are a slightly out of date list of our steering committee members. We have a website NPA5.org. You can also go through the CEDO site, the Burlington BT.gov site. This is Sam's name and how you can access this meeting by YouTube and cable access. So for those of you who are on Zoom, I'm assuming that at this point, years on in the pandemic that everybody is pretty familiar with Zoom. If you want to be recognized, you could raise your hand and use the raise hand feature on the moon. When you're not speaking, if you would mute, that would be great and unmute. We'll remind you to unmute if you haven't.   Hey, hi. Hi. I think that's our last slide, right? Ah, yeah, our agenda. This is our agenda tonight. We'll have a 20-minute segment for public forum. Public forum is open to everyone and anyone. If you have a comment, question, suggestion, complaint or otherwise, please use the time at public forum. In the morning, we have Brigitte Lauren from the Community Justice Center, and at 7.15, we have Howard Center redevelopment. We have three preventors for Howard Center redevelopment. At 8.10, we have Rhino Foods talking about a financial expansion on Queens City Public Road. We expect to adjourn at 8.30 tonight. When you are speaking in public forum, please identify yourself when you're first and last name. Let us know where you live. If you're speaking as an organization, please identify that organization and limit yourself to four or five minutes in your comments, please. All right, so we're here for public forum. The forum is open for any comments on any topic. As I noted, the Democratic caucus is happening at this very moment. So we may have fewer people tonight than usual. We're planning for the, I wanted to say that we're planning for the January meeting, either at the regular meeting or having a public meeting or a special meeting about public safety and gun violence. So, we will be continuing the scene that Brigitte Lauren are starting tonight to talk about issues of public safety. So, staging for that and we'll put that out on on front porch for them to let people know what's coming up. Anybody else want to speak at public forum anything to announce to suggest observations questions. Andy I'll I'll I'll speak quickly to the topic you were just raising hi I'm Billy Clark. I'm a word five NPA steering committee member and I live on Locust Terrace. And yeah as Andy just flagged we're hoping to do a, either a special meeting or at a regular meeting in January hopefully January or soon thereafter. In a discussion of public safety, we definitely recognize that that has been an issue that many of us have faced in Burlington, I myself was one of the people who had property damage from the large incident on the south end. When there was windows broken and while that didn't affect my personal safety certainly was a scary moment. That's on top of many of the other, you know, issues that we've seen arise. I don't, you know, not trying to set in there, given that I guess what I'm what I'm hoping we can do is if folks have particular issues that they want to talk about if there's people they want to hear from if there's voices they want included in the conversation. The steering committee would love to hear from you before that, and certainly would love it if you could come to our meeting in January. This is, you know, something that it weighs on my mind a lot and I want to make sure that we are. This is a conversation that can be done poorly very easily and it's very hard to do right. And so we would want to get as many people participating as we can and want to make sure we do it correctly. So if there's voices that you think you need to be at the table, please reach out to us as we try to make that the interesting and productive conversations. Thank you, Billy. Any other comments from the forum. David, go for it. Yeah, I mean, this is just a question because I think it's going to be covered. You know, I wanted to talk about gun violence and youth and things like that. I don't know if this is the time to talk about it or later in this evening or in January. Did you have a comment about it. I have some suggestions that may be germane to right now or later in terms of my experiences in Chicago working with gang kids and youth. And the absence of a public youth commission in Burlington, but I don't know if this is the right time to make a comment about it, or if the present. There'll be a question and answer during the presentation of the people coming following me. There are a few folks that are working on this issue of youth and gun violence in Burlington and so I'd be happy to connect you to those folks I work at the Burlington Community Justice Center and I've been in conversation about this and have my ears on you know what's happening. So I think what you would have to share is important. And I'd be happy to connect you to the folks that you can share those ideas with me. Okay, and how will you connect me. I can get your email address. Somebody can give that to me here. No, you can yeah I'll get your email address what's your name. I'm David shine. I'm affiliated with big heavy world, which operated to 42 main. And in Chicago I had did a lot of youth programming with gang kids. And I see what's happening in Burlington with a new American community. And it's all too familiar. And there are certain programmatic things that might address some of the problems. I'll connect you to the right folks then. Thank you. Thanks, David. Thank you. And that's definitely flagging a topic that we want to go into more and just to talk what I'm, I'm, I'm a attorney with the Giffords Law Center to prevent gun violence, working for them out of Burlington. And they've been doing a lot of these community violence initiatives and that's definitely something we want to continue to do in our community find ways to bring that locally and I also would love to be connected with you all at the Justice Center that's been on my on my mind to do so my email is on the website for our ward and would love to do with you all at some point, both probably both professionally and not I mean not unprofessionally but personally. Great well we're right here. Great only I was there. Are there other general comments or specific comments that don't have to do with public safety and gun violence or public form. Anything anybody would like to bring up. All right, well, hearing none. Why don't we move along will be a header, header schedule maybe we can give you a little extra time. If you want to see that if you would introduce yourselves. Yeah, and if you could be plenty of time for question. Sure thing. Yeah it's funny you should say we might have some extra time because our presentation is actually quite long how what we've shortened it. And yesterday we had our first kind of exact presentation we didn't go over time was great and so we won't. But it's technically 45 minutes we've been told so just 20 minutes today. There's more information though if anybody wants it. My name is Lauren Monaco eddings I use she they pronouns and I'm a restorative justice practitioner and victim services specialist at the Burlington Community Justice Center. Hi my name is Bridget blazing I'm a victim services specialist long the floor and you join the presentation. Yeah, it's just long trying to watch and it okay. So by means Bridget and I appreciate the opportunity to be here. And yeah really really important thing to go. Some context on the presentation. We're excited to introduce it as the first presentation within what we hope will be a series of community information sessions. We've been working with a lot of different folks over the last three or four months around public safety. And so that includes our states attorney Sarah George, as well as prime victims, as well as people doing direct services to inform the bulk of this presentation. As victim services specialist we talk to people who've been impacted by crime harm violence, almost every day. And we're fielding a lot of feedback and a lot of concerns as well on what on the state of public safety in Burlington right now. So we thought it would be in the best interest of our community. Given the roles that we have with our community to offer a presentation and hopefully folks will feel more connected to resources in the community and then also feel a little bit hurt. I have a clarifying question before you begin. Yeah, is the Community Justice Center housed in the Burlington Police Department or in CEDO or are you completely separate. So we are within CEDO the Community Economic Development Office that is our department that we live within. We are also our own organization as well, but all of our grants for example go through CEDO. And we work closely with CEDO folks have staff meetings with them every month. And so yeah it's a little bit confusing, but Bridget is with the CJC however her position is based at the Burlington Police Department. Okay. So the parallel justice program which is where we are. We're split so the ones at the CJC and then I have at the UPD so basically it's like digital services split for both agencies. Thank you. So let's go into some objectives. All right, so yeah so in the next slide time to be in charge of the slides for us thank you again Sam. Sam with CEDO. We're going to review current issues in Burlington. No one to expect after a crime happens, understand root causes of crime, identify community based approaches to public safety and harm and become familiar with the community. And then afterwards we'll have a question and answer period where, yeah looks like we'll have plenty of time to go through those. Because we are community focused and community driven we're going to begin the presentation with some quotes from our community members on what public safety means to them. It's not criminal to be poor to be mentally unwell or to have addiction and yet be treated like it is mutual respect between police and people. Yes, to more community based social workers, not jumping to the conclusion that an unusual situation is a dangerous one, a community that doesn't jump to fear based reactions. The generalization of substance use addiction neighbors knowing each other saying hello to each other, not being afraid of being friendly to each other police departments that are supportive of progressive release. So in this slide here as we can see folks are interested in community approaches to community violence, which typically involves a relatively small number of people, but has a lasting impact on the entire community. So the violence is learned, which means that circumstances that increase a person's risk of becoming a victim or an offender can be undone. We will discuss prevention later in the presentation but first one to talk about current issues in Burlington. This image shows it is sorry, this image shows reported incidents of crime as of mid November so this is from the police chiefs reports, and something to just highlight is that these are reported crimes and not unreported crimes so we realize that this doesn't capture maybe all of crime or all of issues facing Burlington, but it's a good representation of the general climate. Of note there has been considerable increases in incidents of gunfire varsities mental health issues overdoses and stolen vehicles. Also of note, it is at the Burlington Community Justice Center, we don't see mental health issues overdose and overdoses as crimes, we see these as public health issues. However, currently with this data, we are winning it as a crime and that's how we're responding to it and that's why the data is shown in its way. And then in the next slide is just a different representation of the same numbers but in percentages in that red box there shows where again, maybe we can be well informed to target programming into these issues that we're facing including stolen vehicles so as you can see stolen vehicles have the highest increase so 435% increased stolen vehicles. It's happening pretty regularly, but what we're seeing is that the recovery rate also is very high, but the condition that the vehicle is returned is not what you might expect. You can expect needles, bodily fluids, stolen items and personal items from the person who stole a vehicle that are left behind indicating that the car is being used as shelter or consumption room for drugs and then left abandoned when gas runs out. The data of stolen cars indicates a need for housing and support for substance use. And a few moments we will discuss root causes of crime and how to use data and program implementation to address the needs of folks in an effort to deter them from using crime as a solution to social issues. And then this next slide I know for some of us in the room maybe it's hard to see, but it's a simple flow of what happens after crime occurs that leads to an identifiable suspect. We recognize that some of you in the room have maybe very familiar with crime in Burlington and know all too well how this flow chart operates. We at the Burlington Community Justice Center realize that incidents of crime and harm in our city have had a tremendous impact on individuals, families and neighbors. And that these impacts have been significant. The losses have been emotional, tangible, physical, monetary and traumatic. And we are sorry that some of you have been victims of assault, larceny, burglary, and stolen vehicles to name a few. We do have felt supported by the community in the aftermath, but if you have not felt supported that's partly why we are here. As Lauren mentioned, we have had a lot of discussions with folks over the last several months and we sent to the communities just feeling disconnected and mistrustful of neighbors and systems in place to help them. And we're here to let you know that there are resources available, which we will get into towards the end. Do you mind a question in the middle of this so we don't have to like flip back to the slide. Or would you rather wait for questions at the end. We've been holding for questions but we've also had like, Lauren said like it's like high evolved. Yeah. Well, just, just in terms of this chart that you have up right now. If there's no report of a crime. How does that line go down to parallel justice. We are going to talk about that. Yay. So, yeah, so what so I can start with like the report and then Lauren can kind of give you a preview of what it would look like with no report. So after crime occurs you have a report with an officer online. The investigation takes place and arrests is made the officer then has the option of submitting the case for review to the state's attorney's office or giving a direct referral to the Berlin Community Justice Center, in which case the Berlin Community Justice Center supports the victim through parallel justice and evicting these on, and then the person responsible goes through a restorative justice and alternative justice process, and they're also supported through a case of coordinator. In that case, upon successful completion the charges are just missed they've never gone to the court, the state's attorney's office can decide to prosecute decline or send to diversion. I think if they go through diversion successfully complete diversion is held with that community justice center upon successful successful completion. The charges are dismissed so the charges no longer exist. And then in the instance of a no report. So we have this line there to really emphasize that we are available to people regardless of criminal justice system involvement. There are a lot of folks each year that never report their crimes and their harms to the police. And there are a lot of reasons for that, some of which include not feeling safe going to the police some of which include not knowing how that process works. So we're available to any and all communities to answer their questions, whether that's giving them information about how the system works, or that's to help them find justice and healing outside of the criminal justice system. And so there's a line there really to express that at any point in the way of experiencing and looking for justice and healing, we are available to support those folks. And certainly the state attorney's office so if the case is not sent to diversion, or to the justice center, the victim advocate is available at the state attorney's office who we would communicate with like in case there was any conversation that's placed before it goes to the state attorney's office. There's one person who's on as an attendee. Could you promote them as a panelist just so that case they have a want to participate. Thank you. Thanks. Okay. All right, I interrupted the slide show. Sorry. And then go to the next slide so the next slide shows what happens when crime occurs and it leads to no suspect so beginning of the process is similar a crime curse, the person can choose to either make reports or not. The officer will investigate with the information that they have available, but no arrest is made right so what happens in those cases can be really frustrating and discouraging but it's also just a real possibility. What can, but if the investigation so if it turns up no leads and no solvability factors the case may need to know arrest and solvability factors include things like date and time witnesses and supporting evidence which are not clear in all cases such as a larceny from a motor vehicle or vandalism. So here in Burlington a lot of folks park their cars on streets. You can see the neighborhood where you can see the car parks you know like for days at a time it doesn't move. So in cases like that there's a vandalism it makes it unlikely that it can lead to a suspect because there's hard to you're not able to find like a correct date or time for the person. So there's no investigation or no suspects want to let you know the victim services are still available through parallel justice, and we offer information resources emotional support safety planning and limited financial assistance. And additional context around this slide and why we're sharing it as we noticed in our conversation with folks who are experiencing vandalism and property crimes that there's a lot of frustration about a lack of a police response. So often what Bridget and I will have to do is in a trauma informed way explain you know this is how the criminal justice system works when there's no suspect, when the police are not able to identify a suspect through the investigation. There's no charges. And so for that person it feels like there's no justice. And there's there's still a need there and it can't necessarily be met through the criminal justice system. It can look to being met through victim services. And you know that includes safety planning that we can do that includes emotional support. It also includes limited financial assistance as well. And that folks who experience crime can be materially impacted by that. And so that's to say, again, you know, it's, it's asking people to think, what are their needs in the face of a crime. And that we are people that folks can surely fall to figure that out. So my favorite slide. To prevent crime, we need to understand and respond to its roots and people who experience multiple arrests, which make up for a quarter of all overall arrests each year are people who experience significant health needs that are overwhelmingly unmet or during and after criminal justice system Unfortunately, in Shannon and counts, we do have a growing emphasis on services for people with mental health and substance abuse disabilities who come into contact with the criminal justice system. This is a step in the right direction of treating substance abuse, mental illness and poverty as public health issues. And I am excited to live in a community that has increasingly shown a support for its community members who experienced significant barriers in health equity. So, there's a graph in the middle here. And that was done by the prison policy initiative, and they use nationally represented representative data from the national survey and records to help to find that at these 4.9 million people that were arrested and jailed in 2017. At least one in four of those folks were going to jail more than once during the same year. The graph there will tell you that over half of the people that were booked into jail more than twice, half of those folks had a substance use disorder. A third of them were booked more than twice. They had serious psychological distress with 25% experiencing a serious or moderate mental illness. And 27% of those folks that were booked more than twice had no health insurance. The report also concluded that people with multiple arrests are disproportionately black, low income and unemployed. And that the vast majority of arrests for that year were for non-violent offenses. And that is often true for every year. Low level offenses like drug abuse violations and disorderly conduct make up for over 80% of all arrests with serious violent offenses accounting for less than 5% of arrests. Another way to put all of this is to say that most people who are arrested multiple times a year don't pose a serious public safety risk, and our folks that are instead being punished for not getting their basic needs done. I can't help but consider how at present we are relying on a system of punishment to address the issue of health and life chances. Research, information, relationship building and understanding, however, can direct public and community investments in care. This would include employment assistance, education and vocational training, financial assistance, mental health and substance use treatment options, and checking in on your neighbors. These are investments that can help heal the conditions that lead our community members to police contact in the first place. I'm going to go into what ACEs are and more of what this tree represents, so don't worry about that. I was surprised to find that there is a significant lack of research on the relationship between adverse childhood experiences, so those are shown right next to the tree, also known as ACEs and adult criminal justice system contact. Considering that exposure to trauma particularly in childhood has been associated with a greater risk of substance use disability and mental illness, and that a significant amount of adults who go to jail each year experiencing that adversities, then the lack of research on this relationship is a critical limitation and a key area for crime and harm prevention. So ACEs are determined by an assessment that was created by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention. The assessment uses a scoring system that attributes one point for each category of adverse childhood experiences. The questions each cover a different domain of trauma and refer to experiences that occurred prior to the age of 18. Higher scores, like horror above, with the highest score being 10, indicate increased exposure to trauma, especially when that score is informed by adverse community environments, and those are represented in the roots of that tree, like racism, poverty, poor housing quality and affordability, lack of opportunity and overall community destruction. In the 2022 research studies in the Academic Pediatric Association that I was able to review, confirm that the research on ACEs and criminal justice system contact and adulthood was indeed lacking, and the study introduced itself as the first of its kind. I was truly surprised to see this because these are both assessments that I used in the last 10 years in my work doing a lot of direct services, particularly with children who experienced significant trauma, who then go on to have criminal justice system contact. I was surprised that the Academic Pediatric Association confirmed that there was a significant lack of research on the correlation between adverse childhood experiences and then adult criminal justice system contact. There is research that will confirm adverse childhood experiences and juvenile justice system contact, but not for adults that are incarcerated. I assume that criminal justice system is just proportionally composed of adults who have experienced childhood adversity. Punishing these individuals is not an effective approach to improve lives that have already been so characterized by harm. We are victim services specialists. This might come as a surprise to some, but a significant percentage of victims of both violent and nonviolent crime prefer increased investments in treatment options for those who have caused harm over prisons, jails and law enforcement. A national survey on victims views, which was also the first national survey of its kinds conducted by the Alliance for Safety and Justice in 2016, found that the overwhelming majority of the diverse sample of crime victims that they surveyed believe that the criminal justice system relies too heavily on incarceration. This data and the slide are incredibly important to us, who are roles working with people to experience harm crime, and to my own process as I try and imagine what a world with less harm will look like. I know that I won't get to that imagining without also recognizing that things like public safety and justice mean different things to different people and communities, and that all communities have both survivors and people that have caused harm within them. I'm not here to tell anyone person when saying to your justice should mean or look like to them. I do also know that oftentimes people who experience victimization have been victimized before, and that many people who cause harm to others have themselves then victimized by harm. As I shared earlier, Bridget and I are victim services specialists at the Reliance and Community Justice Center. I am also a restorative justice practitioner. And I work with all of our youth cases where there are an open crime victim. Oftentimes those victims are youth, youthful offenders, also teenagers, but sometimes they are also adults. And, yeah, great. I just wanted to note that for victims justice community many different things and that's what parallel justice is offering support to achieve justice in the form of that emotional support safety planning systems advocacy resource coordination and a limited financial assistance we had mentioned earlier. We recognize that victim may not see inside the courtroom and never have the opportunity influence like sentencing judgment for charged crime and that is traditional justice for parallel justice can fill a gap and give choice to victims so that they can create their own path towards justice so the Reliance and Community Justice Center has a lot of different programs and that's just like a little snippet of like what we're all justice and what we would do. And we also have our conflict assistance program so this is another alternative to criminal justice system involvement. And this is a program it's run by Zoe who shared an office of need, and she connects with folks in the community who are experiencing conflict with their neighbors or their families. And so she does one on one conflict coaching she also does mediation where she will bring both parties together. And you can also look to presentations that she does in the community will actually we're looking to fill that position so anybody know that anyone who wants to do that. But she's built up a really incredible program, and a lot of the work that she did also involves teaching community members their own toolkit of skills to navigate conflict themselves. And as you'll see on the screen, this is the symbol of the groups model based out of Oregon. Or crisis assistance helping out on the streets. That's a mobile crisis intervention program that provides free confidential services in Eugene and the screenfield metro area in Oregon. Free response available for a broad range of non criminal cases which includes homelessness intoxication disorientation substance abuse and mental illness and dispute resolution. When people are experiencing a mental health substance use or housing issue, what they need is understanding clear directions and specific support services. People experiencing crisis are often further escalated and more harm can be done when they see the presence of an armed officer on their own. For me being in community with folks who experience mental health and substance use disabilities means checking my impulses on how I can help them. I'm really grateful to the community support liaisons at the Burlington Police Department who are doing a lot of this work in our city and Britain's going to share a little bit more about what they do. Yes, well the next so we have the crisis advocacy and intervention program so take for short that's housed within the Burlington Police Department. It's a coordinated effort among multiple city departments so it includes CSL and Lauren had mentioned myself being the victim services specialist base at BPD, as well as a domestic violence victim advocate a domestic violence prevention officer. So instead of coordinated approach so maybe I'm dealing with somebody who's going to make them a crime but is also based in chronic homelessness and needs some support and that I can then do a soft hand up to the CSL who can then carry them through like housing application process getting them set up into housing and So that's just like some two local efforts that are community based approaches, including for goods which is a well known national or based in Eugene, Oregon. And then as you can see in the next we have quite a few others. As Lauren mentioned we have Howard Center they have the street outreach team, who build rapport with community members who they see on an everyday basis with them that way they can help you know prevent them from reaching crisis, but you can also respond to crises. We have the peer workforce which just received a grant to help those who are facing unemployment and need help getting into the workforce journey point which is a peer recovery support group. And New York City has a neighborhood safety committee so similar to concept that we have here that basically like uses data and other stakeholders do substance use treatment and prevention they have a neighborhood safety. So those are just some different like models I guess similar to what we could use here as community based approaches. And a big reason why we want to why we have this slide here is because after time when there is a crisis and when it feels like things are changing. It's hard to remember that there are people in the community who do care about you and people that do have a pulse on the situation and are there to help. And so we wanted to include, you know, some local organizations and local efforts to let folks know that there are people who are there, you know, including us and our doors are open to support people through what we've identified as a changing time for a lot of clients. The secret to a healthy community lies in our relationships to one another. This is something that Bridget and I would talk about before seats of whether or not to do a presentation were planted during and then also right now continuing to think on it. There are genuine partnerships between our community members policy makers, community based organizations, particularly those led by formerly justice system involved people, advances community trust public safety and health and racial equity. Without collaboration and relationships, we're going to fail to meet the needs of residents and cause unintended harm for communities that are already overburdened by systemic harms like incarceration. This is not an effective public investment. I'm hopeful and optimistic though that our relationships with each other in Burlington and in Vermont will continue to grow in becoming a community based on care and resilience. Thank you. Next slide there's just a thank you to some partners that we reached out to and connected with. They gave a lot of great feedback. Thank you for that question and answers. This is our contact information. There's some community safety tips that show maybe some things that you're doing already or maybe some things that you haven't thought of that help you with health safety, car safety, bike safety. There's some apps that are included there so that way if you're walking and feeling unsafe there's some apps that will connect you directly to like an iPhone one. So you're welcome to look at that your code or on our website. Thank you. I feel like this is bringing up lots of questions I know it is for me so we have 10 more minutes or eight more minutes for questions right now. I invite anybody who has questions about this to bring them up to Lauren and Richard. I'm really excited with the questions and I do like to let people know that the content of the presentation is pretty dense. And so, you know, some people might find it helpful to know that you can think on it and sleep on it and reach out to us with questions tomorrow. Yeah, these are all really confident topics and subjects, and it is hard to do that in a short amount of time. So it does feel like something wasn't there that should have been, we would love to know that information as well. Any question for Bridget and Lauren. I left with lots of words and not saying that you had too many words but there are lots of words that are very complex, like safety, like, like justice, like harm. I'm, I'm trying to get a handle on where your program and the adverse childhood experiences. So where your program latches on to these things. So, I hear that you are coming from a victim support angle, but there are so many different connections that you've made I'm wondering, like, what, what you feel like we can do as a community or what you can do in in your work to address adverse childhood experiences, multiple definitions of public safety and what that means various interpretations of what justice means. Is that sufficiently vague enough question to give you lots of opportunity. There's a lot of listening. Yeah, that happens. Listening to who listening to your neighbors listening to the community listening to people that feel heard and unheard in the community. And so that's really deep listening to that's not that's thinking about you know, what are the judgments or what are the things where my own feelings that are coming up and I'm listening to this other person speak. I'm having a conversation with those feelings and those parts that come up and then like okay I'm going to get I'm going to come back to this person who's upset. And I'm going to, you know, I'm going to figure out what they're upset about and how I can support them which takes a lot of listening. I think oftentimes when we're not listening or when we're not doing enough listening there's a tendency to I want to fix the situation. I want to do something and I want to do it now and when things are really complex we just can't do that right. And I think actually we can cause more harm when we think that we can. I think it comes from a really good place, you know that kind of wanting to help right away wanting to do something wanting to wanting to help someone who's hurt and I come against this in my work all the time. I wish I could just make it all go away. I think that what I can do is hold on to what somebody is sharing with me and maybe make things feel a little bit lighter for them at the time, which might be. Oh, I know a person that you can call in a community who can give you a discount on, you know, fixing your money or there's a support group may meet at, you know, they meet downtown two times a week and I think you would really like that is that's a group, you know, for single mothers who are overcoming substance use. So just knowing what's in the community and kind of, you know, I think that's one way for community members who want to be in community with other people it's like okay what's happening in Burlington because there actually is a lot there are a lot of people in Burlington care. So knowing what's there, and then checking in on your neighbors, you know, and, and doing a lot of listening. I think it's also important to know that like somebody like these conversations have come up from like victim perspective. So we also know that like victims and that can easily flip flop so we also work with like, like we're coming from you know victim services standpoint and they've heard a little bit like we talk about like harm and justice as well. And we know because these people who are have been victims have been harmed and then the person who is doing the harm has also been harmed maybe like at some point in their life. And so we work with both community members as if you know I come with clean slate we give them what they need and say let's like try to sort out like the needs that they have. And also knowing like it was explained to us but that was really good explanation that like, basically somebody's worst day so like my worst day can be somebody's baseline that could that be that they're every day. My worst day and so just kind of keeping that perspective and knowing that like he like we're all coming from different places and like not passing like judgment and people who are struggling maybe show their struggles out on the streets every day. But we also know that our neighbor next door maybe having a similar show we just don't see it. So that's why they're getting to know your neighbors it's you know helpful and that's what we've heard it's like people, you know, like like blood parties and just knowing the turn to when they're feeling like they have nobody. That's your question. Do you want to answer my question but I want to leave the lead time for other people's questions as well. It's a good question. I like hearing you say how complex those issues are because they are very complex. Other questions. Yes. Hello. Thanks for this presentation. One of the things that I think you touched on and that I've been impressed by in conversations with folks and in well really everywhere about public safety is kind of this recognition of you're just talking about the complexity of the problem. I mean public safety is affected by so many different things and we did a we put out a survey and we had well over 50 people respond to it and and their responses in terms of priorities related to I mean public safety was high, but so was mental health treatment and and substance abuse treatment and options for short term housing for folks who were in crisis. And I wonder, you know, these are problems that are very much affected by the values of our federal government and the policies that state government has followed. And I am wondering, we're going to talk with the mayor tomorrow about the mayor's priorities, in terms of the state legislature this year, I'm wondering what you would say about that. What if you, if we could do, you know, two or three things this year. What would they be. Was that unfair to ask you because you would be speaking for the city and well one of the slides I didn't make it in there was I think it was one of the more inside that she did was talks about like basically, I think I mentioned this to even the city elders who are in this board like basic things would seem basic like like I know my street is very dark it makes it very easy for somebody to see you coming but you not see that and it makes it easy for a car to be broken into. So like lighting in the city I think is something we have abandoned buildings they can buildings that people are able to graffiti. You know, he's like managing that so like sidewalks are you know like this, like think that can be improved by just like the city why is it, why does it get started, but then also yeah and like programs like substance use the indication hospitalization options for people with substance use disability and mental health. Yeah, going back to situational crime prevention strategies and other example could be okay there's a lot of vandalism that happens that there's a lot of graffiti in places that it's not supposed to be what about a place where it could be. So I don't think that we're going to be able to get rid of the issue of, I think people doing graffiti is a tale of old time, and I don't see that going away. What could be interesting, again, a situational crime prevention strategy so in identifying like what is the crime in this area, and where some infrastructure changes I can make I think, lighting, so better lighting I did read something about city council trying to improve lighting of the bike path, I think that's great. I also think that's a fridge and names with all of the car larcenies that we see in Burlington every year, seem better lighting on the street, right. I also think that I appreciate you naming how structural the issue is and how it is, it's structural and it's also value driven within that structure. I think oftentimes if a person who's sitting at that table is a person who's experienced that very harm that people are trying to parse them. Sometimes that can be very helpful. So I would also say, you know, look to the people who have experienced. Right. And what, what do they imagine for the community, what would they like to see. I think there's a lot of. It makes sense to me.  This is how much we can learn from people with that experience right who lived it themselves and we reflect on it and processed it and we've tried to heal. Those are people who have really good ideas to. Thank you. I would like, I would love to continue this discussion for now, past time. And I want to remind people that we're going to continue. I see your hand is up and I hope that we'll be able to continue this discussion. Another time. The public safety is going to be another theme for our January meeting, and perhaps meetings. And I'm wondering whether we could invite you back to be part of that. Yeah, we'll be in touch. Great. Can't wait. And I appreciate everybody's questions. I'm sorry we didn't have time for more. Thank you for coming. Thank you so much for having us. If you do have lingering questions and something wakes you up in the middle of the night just shoot us an email. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Our next topic is Howard Center redevelopment. Who's here for that. Sandy. I think all in one place is a bit better over there, Charlie. You guys can take that whole corner. Okay. Thank you. You could move over here if you want. You get the PDF. Okay. Okay. Sorry to have to move you. If you could, before anybody speak to. If you would mind wouldn't mind introducing yourself, say your first name last name who you're representing and what you're here to talk about. Sam are you starting. I'm going to start. Yes. Hi everyone. My name is Sam deal. I'm a principal at Duncan Dushnetsky architecture and also a neighbor I live down the street on Flynn Avenue and so it's been a pleasure to work with Howard Center on their proposed redevelopment corner of Pine and Flynn with me is standing the wire, the CFO and COO of Howard Center as well as Joe White who is the project manager from Whiteburg. You could bring up the presentation please. So, I believe everyone should be it was in the neighborhood should be familiar with this site where the corner of Pine and Flynn. It's the sort of z shaped building there with some ponding on the membrane roof. This is the redstone apartment building to the south left on your screen is St Anthony's to the top of your screen is the Flynn Avenue co op and then angles be Brooke, which is the forested piece is on your right. And I should mention that before I launched in but I want to keep this presentation relatively brief so that you'll have time for questions. And so if you do have detailed questions, please ask them I can nerd out and engineer out as hard as you want, but I want to keep this light and brief for now. So that's the existing conditions we do not have control the corner parcel which is a four plex owned by another party. We approach them but they're not interested in selling. And so we believe in property rights in this country so we're going to control we're going to work on the parcel that we do control which is bounded by planning pine and the brook and Flynn Avenue co op. So this is the existing condition. We're working with Howard Center last year on looking at this site trying to understand zoning, what the potential was, we did look at the existing building and try to understand what it could be useful for. It's not in great condition. The sites are limited there's no fire suppression system. And because it was originally at least part of it was a convent. It's very cellular and difficult to be to be repurposed and so while we did try to look at a reuse for this building we ultimately determined there wasn't space sufficient in the existing building to do what Howard Center would like to do with the site. If you want to advance. Starting for the switch in view we're now looking from the south towards the proposed redevelopment Flynn Avenue co op is on your left. The redstone apartment building is on the upper right corner. And so what we are proposing is a new 52,000 square feet essentially office building with some additional uses. We do have some covered parking as well, a total of 98 parking spaces. And so the entrance. This is the classic conundrum where we want to have a welcoming front door that faces the street, but we also have many clients and staff who are coming by car and I don't have a pointer but on the southwest corner of the building is our main entrance which spaces the Flynn Avenue as well as towards the parking lot so we tried to acknowledge both entrances in order to create a unified entry for all people who are experiencing the site. So if you go forward one more side I think the next one is the planting plan. This is a more technical drawing that you can begin to see the shape of the building underneath the parking lot or stormwater retention chambers, currently all the stormwater goes untreated into the brook. Most of my neighbors will know that the brook is an impaired watershed and so this project will ameliorate those flows and hold and retain that water before it's released after it's been treated back in. Ultimately, people will ride by bike by walking or by car and staff and client will be using this building but Sandy here is going to talk a little bit about the use of the building who will be working as well as seeking services at the building and so I'm going to let her speak to that and then I'll come back and talk a little bit more about the aesthetics and the fun part of the building so Sandy, please. Thanks Sam on Sandy McGuire Howard Center staff. Thank you all for having us tonight. For folks who might not be familiar with Howard Center we provide support to over 19,000 of our community members annually across 60 locations, primarily addressing developmental mental health and substance use disorders. The second building that we're talking about tonight is one of three primary hubs all located in Burlington for our services on this particular site we've been here for 47 years. The use is a hub or a home base for staff who provide outpatient services, both on site and out in the community, but this is their touchdown spot and home base. This is the first location that has served us well it's close for our clients that we serve, and as Sam mentioned it can be accessed by walking cycling by car or by bus. And it's an ample size property that we believe will meet our needs. There are long list of cons with the physical limitations of the building, given the building's age, and many of the accessibility items that it does not afford us. So as we look forward, we're looking for a building designed at utilizing modern day design approaches to create and support a welcoming inclusive supportive and functional spaces for our clients and our staff to continue providing services that are currently provided on site that includes service coordination psychiatry individual and group therapy, and to co locate some of those same services that are currently off site to make them more accessible for clients so clients aren't having to go to multiple locations to receive their services. It would also house our 24 seven call center and our access and intake team that includes our cultural liaison team, and have space for a new onsite primary care services to be co located for our clients as well. So in addition to the convenience for clients, we expect the co location of staff and physical proximity to one another also supports they're working together as a multi disciplinary care team for the benefit of our clients and our greater community. And so as we continue our exploration and planning we're thrilled to be here tonight to hear folks questions and feedback as we continue to ponder and develop. Great. So see if you want to bring up that rendering, please. So this is a rendering of the new structure if you're standing at the new curb cut, which is just to the right of the existing curb cut looking towards the main entrance. We have a suspended canopy there that again creates that dual sense of entrance both from the parking as well as from the street. And you'll see along the Lynn Avenue facade, a series of teal columns that create a punctuated rhythm along that street and create a deep end facade on the street level which is where a lot of the access and intake and some of the more private forward facing function will take place. Above that copper band with the teal columns we have a white lap siding and large lap siding with dichroic glass fins. For those of you don't know what dichroic glasses, it's, it's very fun rainbow glass that refracts the light and creates both a reflection, as well as a shadow and different tones. And so the composition is meant to evoke music in some ways with a treble clef above, bass clef below with different rhythms punctuating this facade in different ways to create an animated facade that will change throughout the day as the sun moves across. Those solar shades are actually functional though we're trying to limit our solar intake into the glass and reduce our cooling load. The energy efficiency of this building, we're hoping to be very high performance building we're working with Ellen consulting down the street and hoping to do a geothermal ground source heat pump system that would mean this would be all electric to meet building really intense cleaning standard. If possible we can load this rooftop with solar and perhaps being at zero. Sandy's got to find all the money first but you know these are the things that we're trying to work through the details up. I'm going to go to the next slide there's a detail of this entrance canopy for folks to see. There's a little bit more detail here we took that one of the columns and turn it down on its side to bring people and pull people into the site and create a nice place to sit. There's a little bit more detail there the facade go the next one. And this is a view looking more straight on from Flora Avenue looking at that facade so again you can can see the flags quite as much when you're looking at it straight on but the windows are jittering across the street that visual interest. I didn't mention it before but we do have some frontage on pine street. There we're hoping to locate Howard Center's Community Arts Hub. And so that would be slightly separated from the main front door of the building and service and access, maybe even perhaps these meetings could be there in the future, which would be wonderful to have another community space within the neighborhood. And that will create a nice building beside all on pine street, separating the underground parking from the streetscape. So that's, that's where we're at with the building. We, we thought a lot about this but we have not visited the community yet and so we've completed schematic design but we have lots of more work to do so. Questions or comments or concerns. Now is a good time for us to hear that feedback from the community. Thank you. Thank you. Questions. Questions. Down here. I just want to say that building was great and you don't often see buildings where you know people are trying to social services building you don't often see them looking so nice. It's so important for the people looking to get help and for the people who are doing network to exist and work and get help in a place that they feel respected by. So, thank you so much. Thank you. Appreciate that feedback. Other questions and comments. You have a parking lot that fronts on pine street, does that go away with your addition to your building. No, the pine street lot will remain a smaller form right now it's about 20 cars and we're going to half of that lot will be under the new building and so we'll have about 10 to 11 spots. So we still have we still will have a pine stream. You said 98 spaces. Correct. What's your total spaces currently. I should have looked that up. I'm sorry. I believe it's about 30 something. It's not, it's not a lot. Total. Because you have access from play as well. Yes. So what's your total parking space. Don't know off the top of my head. Sorry. Add or we will leave where we didn't have more parking. Ultimately, we currently have. What's the timeline you're hoping for. When do you expect to do this. Sure. Yeah, we. The timeline is, we're hoping to start construction in the spring of 2024. And completed by probably towards the spring of 2025. I was just wondering if the white building that's on time straight and set back a little bit, the big house. Is that part of Howard center now. The one on the other side of the road. Yes, that is one of our properties and that's going to stay the same. Yes. Yes, no change. Other questions. One last question, which is just what can the community do to support this project? Well, I can't help but say anyone can contribute at any time. I think, you know, generally we're looking for, for feedback. And for input. And we'll be doing the same with all of our staff and with our clients as well, but really looking to the community, both as neighbors as community members and also within the building. And how we can do the best that we can. What haven't we thought about that can benefit all of us. And again, when I appreciate your comment earlier, I think a primary driver of what we're trying to do. And when I think about parody for mental health services, substance use disorder services and how I individually feel, and I go for physical health services where I might feel respected in a nice facility. Our clients are sad, deserve the same. Absolutely. I think that's right. And I'll just add that our schedule right now has us going to the development review board. And the conservation board and the design advisory committee in April, May. You know, it's coming April, May. So if you're willing to show up at one of those meetings and offer your support, we would greatly appreciate it. Joe, could you identify yourself? I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm Joe White. I'm with Whitenburg real estate advisors. And we are the project manager and development advisor. Thank you. We have one more minute for question. Oh, Terry, you've got a question too. I'm going to let Peggy go and then Terry and then Billy.  I'm Peggy. Oh, and Sands. I live on lunch, Mr. Street, but I'm, you said that there will be primary care services. And I'm assuming you're talking about primary care and mental health services. Physical primary care services. So a primary care physician. So we don't have all the details. Yeah, but we are creating a space for those services to be offered. So we'll be hopefully partnering with positions in the community and other organizations to be able to provide on-site primary care services. And then we'll be working on that as well. And then we'll be working on that as well. And thinking about our client experience and trying to get them there. All the access to services, not only Howard center services. In a single location, but also other services that might be prohibited for them to go to another location to be able to access that service as well. I'm just surprised because community health center has a facility that's stone sort of. Where you're going to be. Okay. Terry. Yeah, I might have missed your presentation. Please excuse me, or I apologize in advance. Are you consolidating your sites? Is this, are you going to be closing some of your sites and moving staff from other locations to the pine street location? We are not closing any of our sites. Part of this is moving some programming around. Again, when we think about clients going to multiple buildings and wanting to have them be able to access their services in one site. So there will be some staff in other locations moving into this building. And that also affords us the opportunity for some growth and expansion. As we burst at the seams a bit. So as we look towards the future. Billy, did you have a question? Just very quickly. I know you said you talked to the one property owner who about you. Have you talked at all with San Anthony's across the street in part just because I'm curious that. I know they had tried to do a large development, not, you know, But when we started with the, the neighborhood. As I said, this is, this is a couple of years back. And I do view this as sort of. Not, I mean, for the good in many ways. Changing the character of the neighborhood. So just be curious what their perspective is if any. We haven't had direct communications with them. Conversations recently. We did several years ago when they were looking at some redevelopment as well. We did. Notify all of the neighbors with a notification, with them. We have also looked for, as we looked at this work the past couple of years, we've taken a look around the community about where should we really be located? Could we move further out of town? Would that be beneficial? We looked at where our clients are located, where they were coming from, and we looked at community partners that we needed to be proximate to and really landed on the south end of Burlington. We looked at other properties that might be available and explored some other properties. We had a couple of times have had some folks that help us out with real estate take a look at current buildings that maybe we could purchase and use for our needs and really haven't found anything in the area that needs our needs. So we circled back to a property that we already own the land and that has served us very well as far as the location really feeling like it's a prime location. So that's where we are today. Thank you very much. I'm afraid we've run out of time. Each of these topics, it feels like we could keep talking about and I hope you'll come back and talk to us some more. Thank you. Thank you. Our next topic has to do with rhino food. So take center stage, please. Thank you, Maggie. This is the best way for me to connect. We've got a moment for technical adjustments here to get this presentation up and running. Anybody have any comments that they want to slip in while we're in transition here on any topic at all? I want to remind people that our next meeting, our next scheduled meeting is January 19, 2023. And that's Thursday, the third Thursday of every month. We'll continue to have hybrid meetings so that you can zoom in or you can come here to the conference room at the Department of Public Work 645 Pine Street. So both options will continue to be available. Thanks to Charlie Janone for working the camera and the microphone so well. And to Sam who's currently working out the technical difficulties here at DPW. If we're continuing to look to eat up some time, Andy cut me off when we're no longer looking to do that. One other thing I would promote is that we are looking to get more people on the World Five NPA Steering Committee if getting involved with the World Five NPA is something that you're interested in. We would love to get more voices on here. It's not a huge commitment, but it's a great way to get to know your neighbors and get to know the issues that are going on. So just a little pitch for that. Thank you, Billy. Are we ready? Are we rolling? If technology allows. Good. Well, if you could introduce myself. I'm Ted Castle, the owner of Rhino Foods. I don't know where people know where we are, but we'll show some drawings. And we have Nick from Food Tech who's been working with us, Matt Greer, who works at Rhino and playing taxis and is running this project. So we're excited to show you what we're up to. It's very early in the process. And so we're here to bring in some concepts for you folks to hear what you think. So it's pretty much a general meeting just to introduce ourselves to your group. Please don't pick it up. Yep. And make sure that your sound is all the way down as well. Okay, perfect. So again, my name is Blaine Paxton. So I lead supply chain planning efforts at Rhino Foods. And thanks again for giving us some of your time for us to share some details of this project. We'll just do a few intro slides to get the projects in context. And then we'll turn it over to our lead architect to walk through some of the details. So Rhino Foods has been growing pretty quickly. We will share just a little bit of information about that. We see it taking to a generally for growth and job creation. And so we're seeing in the later than 2026 to at some sort of an expansion of our manufacturing and distribution capacity. I'm just going to jump right into the agenda items. Let Ted cover this quick overview of Rhino's products. So we're a privately held business. We started the Champlain Mill in Manuski and have been here since about 1991. We've made lots of different products, but primarily our products right now are cookie dough. Very good for you if you eat cookie dough ice cream, you're in great shape. And so that's really what we do. We've grown in the last since 2017. We've had some pretty fortunate growth and gone from about a $30 million company to about a $60 million company. Hopefully you folks know that we employ over 200 people in the Burlington community. We have a very diverse workforce. We have what we call inclusive hiring. So we hire people out of incarceration and substance abuse. So we have what we call a really open hiring system. And we try to put the effort into having people be successful, not have a system where we're trying to exclude people. And we've had probably close to 30 to 40% of our workforce has been refugees for the last probably 20 years. So, you know, we like being in Burlington. We've been fortunate to grow and we've been fortunate to stay privately held. And hopefully people know that we're a good community member. So we look forward to seeing if we can keep growing in Burlington. All right, real quickly, let's put the project in context in terms of the timeline. So starting on the left over here, of course, we're here and we'll come to we've just completed conceptual engineering study, which we're about to share some highlights of. Then we're just starting to engage with the city right now and will in the next few months. And in parallel to that, we're also aggressively exploring the veggie grant program as well as other economic incentives. And all of that leads to along with our evaluation of alternatives to this project. Go, no go date, no later than June 2023. So then you can see the rest of the project timeline, which I won't go over, will eventually lead to construction finishing in the early 2025 and then occupancy by mid to late to come by. Okay, and then just quickly to orient if you've done not know exactly where Ryder Woods is, you're over on Queen City Park Road, 1 million industrial Boulevard or industrial road, and then right across from Burlington Boys. Right with that, we will turn it over to Nick Struve to go through some of the details. All right, thanks, Blaine. Quick introduction for myself. My name is Nick Struve. I'm an architect with FoodTech. We're a design build company that specializes in the food and beverage industry. So I'll take you through what we've been working on recently here. The first slide is showing the existing property as it is today. You can see the existing facility as well as the adjacent parcel, which is also owned by Rhino. And what we're looking to do is basically maximize the usage of the available space and create a building that would essentially be the central location with all parts of the operation all under one roof. The existing facility is primarily a production facility as it is and the distribution portions handled in a separate facility. And the expansion that we're looking at putting on this building would bring that distribution portion onto this building here. Blaine, you can go to the next slide. So the area highlighted in yellow is the footprints of the proposed building expansion. And as I said, it's going to be primarily for a distribution center. So it's going to have a lot of refrigerated storage areas, ambient storage for various materials for the production, as well as a shipping and receiving dock. The building itself will be similar materials to the existing building. So insulated metal panel, obviously for the refrigerated spaces inside, it's important to maintain the refrigerated environments within the structure. In an effort to maximize the available storage within the building, this new addition would be a little over 40 feet in height. And that's to maximize the level of the pallet storage within the building. I think that covers mostly from the site. If we go to the next one, we can take a look at the floor plan and get a feel for some of the spaces then. There we go. So yeah, so here you can see a big chunk of the lower portion of the building north. There's kind of to the right on the east side of the building would be freezer storage space. Well, the finished product is going kind of in the middle of the buildings where the ambient storage would be just to the right of that is where they label as future manufacturing spaces. So those would be directly adjacent to where the existing production spaces are. And we're essentially just kind of expanding that space directly to the to the south in this new addition. Then the next slide. And then here's a rendering of what this addition would would look like. As you can see where the intention would be to include solar on the roof as we obviously have a lot of roof space to work with. We're looking at about 62,000 square feet total in this building addition. So looking to, you know, maximize that opportunity if we can for, you know, including of the solar panels. So it's really, you know, a direct extension of the of the existing building, obviously, considerably taller given the storage needs of the of the newer portion. But, you know, again, it's very similar material. It brings pretty much everything right on needs into one central facility to cover their their full operation. So that was the quick overview of the project that we're looking at. And, you know, similar to the last presentation, looking to, you know, present this to the community, get some feedback and kind of make everyone aware of what we're what direction we're looking at going with this new with this new addition. Thanks.  So comment, thank you. Comments, questions, observations, Sam, are you planning on any pedestrian improvements along the street? We met with technical review with different departments just last week and learned about some potential projects on the other side of what's on my road. And so I think that would be a conversation we really know when they were suggested that we not potentially put in a crossbar to, you know, allow anyone to do that way. Because it's currently no sidewalk along that street at all. And so there's planning for sidewalk on the other streets, the other side. Okay. And that's fine. Yeah. So we heard for the first time that there was a concept. Just so you know, people online cannot hear. You can bring that over. Okay. Other questions, observations, comment, Sam. Okay. Two online comments, Billy. What will the route be for trucks leaving there? And is there any anticipated improvements to some of the roads in that area? Right now, our trucks go off over the bridge. I don't even know the name of that bridge or the road. The one lane bridge there that's on the corner, sort of on the corner where Burton is now and Lin is across. That's really the truck traffic. And I think it's important for people to know that we have a warehouse that's about 60,000 square feet in Williston that we use. They were leasing. And this is what the timeframe and we actually have a lot of 3PL in Avon, Massachusetts, who are trying to bring everything under the same roof to become more efficient and be able to really continue to grow because these efficiencies are really what keeps you from. Would you turn it on in those lights? I didn't hear it. I don't think that was a question yet. Laurie, do you have a question? I do. Thank you. Good evening. This is Laurie Smith. And my first question is at your loading docks, where you currently have loading docks, a number of your trucks have refrigeration units on the trailers. I'm assuming that these new trailers will have a ref or the new loading dock will have trailers with refrigeration units on them as well. Is that correct? Okay. So in that regard, my question is, have you considered reconfiguring the building so that the loading dock is facing Queen City Park Road instead of configured in such a way that the noise from those units will be reflected onto the residents that are behind you on Austin Drive? We considered a few different layouts. This is the one that operationally works the best. And we also were advised that a concern that the city might be actually, you know, having visibility to the docks from Queen City Park Road. That wasn't the driving concern, but that's one of the things that we heard. Also, I think it's worth noting that behind the existing building that there is soundproofing and we're actually open to continuing to talk about that and extend that this way. There's also an elevation change, a natural elevation change right back here. It's on the order of end of 12 feet. So without being an increased engineer, you can get to that quite somewhat or sound abatement to the neighbors here. Okay. Well, I'll just follow up saying that I understand the visual concerns. And I do know that the neighbors have had continuing concerns with noise issues. And if those noise issues can be directed towards Queen City Park Road, instead of the residences, I think you'll have an easier time getting the project through. So I just wanted to bring that to your attention. Thank you. Appreciate it. I guess I have a question that Laurie has been in the past very involved with the work around the potential higher ground expansion. I'm wondering what increased traffic on that small road will, I mean, this was mentioned before, but on that small road coming out, what impact that will have and what improvements would be needed in order to handle all that traffic? So right now we've engaged a preliminary traffic study, so we don't have the answers, but we will shortly and probably the next two weeks, the difference. But right now that what we do is we're there's trucks going back and forth, bringing raw materials to the plant, and then finish goods out. So this will, this will increase truck traffic, and we'll have the numbers within a few weeks. One thing that's important to know that we, you know, we talk about the 225 employees were three shift operation. So they're not all on site at the same time. And we also have a fair number of people that take the bus. So that's one of the advantages of us staying in Burlington is the bus routes. We have a lot of folks that are taking the bus that don't have cars. And so that that's one of the reasons why we like Burlington, quite frankly, it allows us to have sort of a thriving workforce that is, you know, doesn't have cars, quite frankly. So it's just, I just want to highlight that that we're, even though there's 225 people that work there, it's over three shifts. And you've had no trouble finding workers? Oh, yeah, we have a lots of trouble finding workers. Yes. If you know, if you, we're giving people $1,500 if they bring a friend, if they stay for six months, the person gets $2,000. So that's that's a type of recruiting that's goes on right now in Burlington and all over Vermont is trying to find workers. The other thing I would say it just in terms of traffic, just we're not talking about a doubling or tripling of a workforce. So, you know, there's a range of scenarios, but you're probably not even 50% more. So it so just, you know, swaging fears that there's in this wave of cars and it's traumatic in the house. It's nothing on the order of that. We have a question right behind you. Could you introduce yourself? My name is Patrick Malung and I live in Ward 5 off Focus Street. With the building of Shanley and Parkland, we'll mitigate a lot of traffic issues. Are you asking me or somebody else? I'm just asking in general. I mean, it's going to cross Shanley and Parkland. So basically Queen City Boulevard, Combine Street is going to be closed. Shanley and Parkland being a direct exit or on ramp to Highland Union. So, I mean, they'll mitigate a lot of traffic issues in my mind to the neighborhood. I'm just wondering if have you considered that? I wouldn't be able to speak to that project or so. I don't know if there's anybody here that is more familiar with the timeline. It's under construction. It does have some delays because it's a big project with lots of complicated factors. So, but it is under construction and I think your timeline is probably pretty close to where things will end up where they are heading at least at this rate. So, I think Patrick raises a more point that that would alleviate quite a bit of truck traffic, which was actually part of the whole purpose of the parkway. Like the parkway or not, it is intended to mitigate the impact of lots of truck traffic in residential neighborhoods. If you could identify yourself since we're not seeing you on the screen right now, that would be great. Oh, that was Brian Pine from CEDA. Thank you. So, I'm sure that there will be many more questions. Thank you for coming. And Brian, do you have a question? It's more just to sort of express our support speaking for the city that the role of a company like Rhino in the only area for the city that's owned and was specifically created as an industrial park. That is literally what that whole area was designed and purposely built and developed for the purpose of manufacturing. There's very little manufacturing left in Vermont and for little in Burlington, but Rhino is one of the only remaining manufacturers that has not just provides family wage job, but provides access to employment for many folks for whom labor market participation is challenging. And they've been an exemplary employer since over 20 years. For more than that, they're hiring new Americans who have very limited English proficiency and working with them to ensure that not only can they do the work, but that they develop the skills to navigate light as well. So I think this is a pretty unique opportunity to talk about creation of jobs. There's a really important case which is pretension and reservation of jobs. And this is a project that retains jobs in our region. And the bus commitment is significant because Fremont Transit is right next door, is the most serviced public transit employer perhaps anywhere because of the location. We have every bus originates, you know, that does a good job there. Thank you, Brian. I think that's all for tonight. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you, Nick. And thank you, everybody who came tonight. Our next meeting is January 19th next year. And I hope to see you there. Thanks, everyone. Thank you, Andy. Thanks, Andy, for being there.