You're watching FJTN, the Federal Judicial Television Network. Coming up on Court to Court. The biggest surprise has been that it's a lot easier than Ban Cap was. The sooner that you realize I have to take an active part in learning, all I can about CMECF, the better off you're going to be. We can't make someone change. We can only provide the atmosphere for them to change. This is Court to Court. Your connection to what's happening in the federal courts around the country, providing information and ideas that will enhance your job and how the courts function. Now with today's program, Michael Burney. Welcome to Court to Court, the Federal Judicial Center's educational magazine program for all court employees. On today's program, we'll visit two courts that have dealt with staff training for CMECF. We'll return to another moment in court history, and we'll learn how probation officers can make a difference in the lives of offenders whom they supervise. The conversion to CMECF continues in courts across the country. Handling court documents electronically means big changes for most court staff. And as always, one of the best ways to deal with change is training. We visited a district and a bankruptcy court that have recently gone live to learn how they've managed training at the bankruptcy court for the district of Wyoming. Clerk of Court Joyce Harris says that dealing with change often means stress for the staff. I took the position that it was going to be an exciting time. It was going to be fun. And we tried to make the change fun for everybody. Now not everybody bought into the fun, because it was, there was a fear factor that they had to deal with. The change to CMECF for me was a little scary. I felt my job was threatened. I didn't know if they would have a need for people anymore. You can't emphasize enough that the system isn't going to replace what we're doing today. It's just going to change how we do it and the processes we do. And then after things started moving along and CMECF, I realized that there's just more things to do. There's more things to check. It makes people do their job in a different way. My first reaction was, oh, I have to learn something new again. Because when I was hired, we were doing band cap. And I had to learn all of these really funny codes. It was kind of hard, but I did. And then I was going to have to learn something new. And now? I think it's wonderful. Probably the training made the difference. Harris decided it was easier to train in small increments, rather than covering everything in one session. Some of our systems people did the training. Some of the training was done by the project manager. Some of the training was done by the case managers. This morning, I thought we'd go over our case closing events and practice on closing some actual cases now. And it has been a stretch and a good stretch for me as a systems person to learn how the docketing fits into what we're doing. Because I can't really solve any of the problems that have come up for the case managers unless I understand how they do their business and how they dock it. And so communication among all of the people, among your systems people, your chief deputies, your program managers, the docket clerks, everybody to a greater or lesser degree has to be in on this. The court has been imaging documents for several years. Ellis says a clerk's office should start early to ensure that everyone is familiar with a Windows operating system. Learning how to use a browser, the mouse, how to work in the Windows environment because that's new to a lot of the case administrators. And then when it's time for formal CM ECF training? I would suggest that the training not occur until about three months before you went live. In our case I think we were a little bit ahead of that and you start to lose the skills if you haven't put them to use pretty soon. What I will come back with is a listing of cases that CM ECF believes are in a position to close. I think an important point to remember is that most of the people already know the process. It's just how you're applying it. You're applying it to a new system. There are extra steps in doing what you have done before, but it's easier. It might take a little while longer, but there's nothing to be afraid of. The biggest surprise has been that it's a lot easier than Band Cap was. I think it's exciting. You can just point and click, which is very easy. You don't have to memorize anything. It's important when we're training to encourage the staff to always ask questions and not to accept things as they are just because they're there. If they ask the question, there may be another way to do it or it may be a process that we don't need to do anymore. The question is how are we going to discharge? What do we show to discharge? The difficulty of training and keeping up with day-to-day work meant that some staff worked evenings or weekends. I don't think it could have been done a better way. I think everybody realized that we were in training, we had our work to do, and we needed to be trained. Severson says that now the ongoing training is often informal. We'll just meet by the front intake or have a stand-up meeting. We'll talk something over and make a decision, and that will be what we go with. When you get done here, I have a question for you on an order. Okay. We could look at it when you see the Maciel. Okay. It doesn't make any difference if it's just a little tiny item or something great big. I learn something new every day. I think that keeps your mind active and open to learning. Have all of the deputies been trained in how to use the track-it system? The clerk's office plans to train case trustees as the first outside users. Because there are few trustees, Harris and her staff hope to have them come to the Cheyenne office. But they also know that they may need to go to the trustees' offices. Wyoming is a large state. There's a lot of square miles out there. The bar does not have access to the court like they would have in a large city. We're here to serve the bench, the bar and the public, and by doing what we're doing, we're educating them to use the tools that we will have available. We also have a videoconference facility in the court that can tie into our state university system that enables us to reach almost every town in Wyoming. So a mix of all those things, I'm sure, will be used to train the attorneys. The docket clerk, Geraldine Huber, looks forward to trustees and attorneys using CMECF. We will still have a lot of work to do, I'm sure, but that'll be exciting, too, because I like to correct other people's mistakes. I hate to make mistakes of my own and I make plenty of them, but I like to correct other people's. These case administrators have practical advice for other staff as they begin CMECF training. You want to prepare as much as you can, but sometimes you prepare too much and you just need to jump in. Let's pay attention to what you're doing. It's exciting for me, especially, because when I started, we did everything with a mimeograph machine and we didn't have electric typewriters. So to be able to see what we are able to produce and give to the public now is just really overwhelming at times. That sort of enthusiasm is mirrored in the district court for the District of Nebraska. The staff there, too, was somewhat apprehensive about CMECF, and so the individuals responsible for training adopted an attitude that said, we're going to make this fun. The project manager also recommends introducing staff to CMECF prior to formal training. Do little teasers. Have them go through some computer-based training. Give them some challenges. Just get them exposed to the software. To introduce its staff to CMECF, the Nebraska Clerk's Office had them use several training databases and modules. Getting out there and touching it and getting a feel for it, I think you're going to not have as much anxiety on their part because they've seen it now. When it was time for formal training, the Clerk's Office created multiple opportunities so that staff could sign up for days and times that were convenient. When the criminal complaint comes in, the first thing we need to do is open up our magistrate case in CMECF. Using an actual case from the court, training sessions docketed the entire case in CMECF. So everyone got the overall feel of the system, what it was going to be to open a case, how it was going to be to close the case, and I think that made the most sense to people to see that overall picture. The divisional office in Lincoln is 60 miles away, and all eight staff needed CMECF training. Deputy in charge Pat Merritt says, traditionally this presents problems for divisional offices. You have training scheduled, and everybody's involved in electronic case filing, someone has to stay back. So that means no matter what the meeting is or what the training is, one person doesn't attend. You just have to eliminate those boundaries, it just has to be done. So the Clerk's Office provided training in both Omaha and Lincoln, and staff could attend at either location. So this we're opening as a magistrate case, so we're going to do MJ. But geographic logistics were only one headache. You'd be in training all day long, you'd come back from training at four o'clock or something, there would be a huge stack of work left for you to do. And you can't get upset with your coworkers because, guess what, they have a huge stack of work, but they are trying to get done too, because they've been just as busy. Sometimes it's so hard when you see the workload on your desk to think training's not important, especially when ECF might be six months down the road.  What we had to do was, you know, ask staff to come in on the weekends and work some overtime. You hate to do that, but we really had to. I was okay with it because I felt like I needed to be in those meetings and I needed to understand what was going on. We want our court to be on the cutting edge, i.e. cutting edge, but not bleeding edge. We were the second to the last to go on ICMS, and I'm very, very proud and thrilled to be the first court that will be going on criminal ECF. Now this is different than in civil. In civil we didn't care, but in criminal it does matter and it's going to make a difference whether or not they get their email notification. All staff volunteered to train attorneys and received special training for that. I initially volunteered to be a trainer because I figured that to be a trainer, I would have to know what I was doing. It's been great. We don't have any more attorneys for the USA. We're done with this, so we're going to go ahead and click the submit button. Because they have some frustrations or they may have some concerns, I think the key to training attorneys is to have some patience and be willing to be a good listener. I love the attorney training aspect. I think it's such a positive experience. I mean, when in ECF, other than ECF, you get to work with attorneys on a new project that your court's undertaking. And it's been a good, marvelous learning experience for me. I've always known we've had a great staff and they're very talented and very hardworking. But what has happened is we've discovered a lot of hidden talent. They're thinking of new processes, writing new procedures, coming up with new ways to do things. And it's really just a different outlook on their jobs. Energy is an interesting thing. It becomes very infectious, but it's got to start at the top. And you start to see that sprinkle through your agency and through the court. When the court went live with CMECF for civil cases, the clerk's office began weekly debriefing meetings, video conferencing with the Lincoln office. Could we compromise, put it in a case folder, but not, but just write the case number on there, would it be more difficult just to put it in a folder, you know, like a criminal folder? And those really are training because all the docket clerks come to the debriefing meetings and any issues that come up we talk about there and we work them through. We have a computer right there. So if somebody has a question about something, we can just go on the computer, show them how it works. We've been opening up the statistical civil cases for 2255 motions on ECF. And there was a little bit of confusion on which remark we should be using, whether it's the remark non-public or the remark public. Everybody gets a chance to talk about those things. And you have a chance to put in your input if you want to put in your input. If we go to the trouble of making these files and putting them in there, they're not going to be complete anyways. And you don't feel like you're sitting on the outside waiting for somebody to come along and tell you, well, we decided this. Well, this is what's going to happen now. You're part of it. You're part of making the decisions. I'm going to go ahead and skip down. They keep detailed minutes for those who can't attend these meetings. The debriefing meetings were something that we started the first week of going live on civil. I know myself, I really thought that they would taper off. And, you know, we've been on this project now three months, and we still meet once a week. And our list constantly has 20 items on it. So they're not going away. Training coordinator Luda Pleiss says that everyone who ever touches a case file needs to know something about CMECF. So that's not only just your docket clerks, but your courtroom deputies. You have people in your admin staff that look up cases from time to time. All of your chamber staff, the marshals office, needs to be able to pull up a case. When you get into the criminal side, you've got your probation and pretrial offices. So just within the court, I'm now training the entire court. Several staff members say that preparing for and implementing CMECF became this whole focus of their jobs. I didn't personally know how much time it was going to take and how much energy it was going to take. But would we do it all over again? Absolutely. It is the future. It's where we need to go. And it's fun being on the cutting edge, even though it requires a lot of time and energy from our staff. Now I think it's great. I think it's required our court to go through and examine the way we do things. It does not take the place of you knowing your job, but it makes knowing your job so much easier. It really does. The sooner that you realize I have to take an active part in learning all I can about CMECF, the better off you're going to be. An example of the payoff came for docketing supervisor Jennifer Stone when she helped chamber staff use CMECF to access the documents in a case that had been transferred from another jurisdiction. That was amazing. And I think that I know why for myself is like, wow, this is really cool. So that was a good thing. Since we taped at the Nebraska court, it is implemented CMECF for criminal cases and reports that the transition went smoothly. Staff training for criminal was well received. And informal training and discussions continue as the court tweaks procedures and its dictionary. The FJC will broadcast an expanded program highlighting the experiences of the Nebraska and Wyoming courts. Check the FJT and Bulletin online for dates and times. In the summer of 1839, the Spanish schooner Amistad accidentally sailed into United States waters. After the ship left Havana, Cuba, enslaved Africans on board revolted, killed the captain, and seized control of the vessel. They attempted to sail back to Africa, but the badly damaged vessel eventually drifted to Long Island Sound, where it was boarded by the crew of a US Navy ship. But that's only the beginning. Here with the rest of the story is my colleague, Bob Fagan. The naval crew took custody of the Amistad, its cargo, and the 42 Africans on board. They towed the ship to New London, Connecticut, a state where slavery was legal, intending to file a salvage claim in the courts. Under the laws of salvage, anyone who rescued a ship from danger was entitled to a portion of the value of the ship and its cargo. The Amistad case entered the federal courts in August of 1839, when district court judge Andrew Judson convened a court of inquiry and heard testimony from the Spanish planters, who claimed to own the Africans, and from Antonio, a slave who was cabin boy for the Amistad's slain captain. Judson held that the case presented both criminal and civil claims. He kept the salvage claim in the district court and referred the criminal case, the revolt and murder at sea, to the circuit court. At that time, federal circuit courts were mainly higher-level trial courts. The Amistad case generated much public interest, both in the captives, who were from the Mendy region of West Africa and in questions of law and jurisdiction. Anti-slavery activists saw the case as an opportunity to build support for the abolition of slavery. These abolitionists formed committees to help the Africans in court. At the circuit court in Hartford, Connecticut in September, Justice Smith Thompson ruled that no federal court had jurisdiction over an act that occurred on a foreign vessel at sea. This ruling eliminated all threat of criminal prosecution of the Africans. Their fate now depended upon their status as property, rather than any accusation of wrongdoing. The trial regarding the salvage claims began in January 1840 in the district court in New Haven. There was no jury, and the case's determination rested solely with Judge Judson. The strategy of the lawyers recruited by the abolitionist committee was to win the court's acknowledgment that slavery violated natural rights, those rights to which every human is entitled, regardless of any nation's laws. They also argued that the Mendes enslavement violated Spain's own laws. The trial reached its dramatic high point when one of the enslaved Africans, who had become known as Cinque, described his capture by slave traders in West Africa and the horrific voyage across the Atlantic in the suffocating hold of a slave ship. After five days of testimony, Judson read his decision. The naval crew was entitled to a salvage award for the ship and its non-human cargo. But he denied a salvage award for rescuing the Africans, because even though slavery was legal in Connecticut, slaves' sales were not. And so the court had no way to determine their monetary worth. Judson also ruled that because there was no proof of ownership, the Mendy were not lawfully held property of the Spanish planters. And finally, he ruled that because Antonio, the cabin boy, was born in Spanish territory as a slave, he was the legal property of the captain and must be delivered to Spanish officials. Judson's decision was appealed to the circuit court, which quickly upheld his rulings in order to speed the certain appeal to the Supreme Court. The case came before the Supreme Court in its January 1841 term. How the court would rule was unpredictable. The court had always protected the property rights of slaveholders at the same time that it enforced restrictions on the slave trade. Former president John Quincy Adams had joined the group of lawyers representing the Mendy. His emotional argument invoked the principle of natural rights as embodied in the Declaration of Independence. On March 9, 1841, the court's senior justice, Joseph Story, delivered his opinion for the majority of the Supreme Court. The district court's ruling that the Mendy were not legally held property was upheld. And the captives were finally given their unconditional freedom. The decision that freed these captives offered no legal relief to the nearly 3 million residents of the United States held in slavery. Nor did it serve as a precedent for legal challenges to slavery. The Supreme Court let stand the district court's ruling that the cabin boy, Antonio, was a slave under Spanish law. But the widely reported proceedings in the federal courts did highlight the fragile legal principles and political compromises supporting slavery. The main impact of the Amistad case was to encourage the growing opposition to slavery in the United States. That's a moment in court history. I'll be back with words to know in the next court to court. Our award-winning half-hour video, Amistad, the Federal Courts and the Challenge to Slavery, is available from our media library at<PHONE_NUMBER>. There are also materials about the case on our website, which you can download. The video will air on the FJTN in February. You may want to use some or all of these materials in public programs of your own. For any assistance, please call our history office at<PHONE_NUMBER>. Court staff can have effects large and small on those who come in contact with the courts. While many staff won't have as intense an effect as do probation and pretrial services officers, there are lessons to be learned about dealing with people. At the probation and pretrial services office for the Western District of Wisconsin, they use a map analogy, charting the course, to describe how officers help offenders change their lives. Kent Hansen, chief US probation officer for the Western District of Wisconsin, believes that probation officers have a mission. We're not just trying to see people through a period of supervision. We're trying to interrupt the cycle of dysfunction. Several years ago, when officer Rick Badger supervised Gloria Farr's release on a fraud charge, he discovered that she was a crack cocaine user. His reaction was typical of how he deals with offenders. It's good to see you. You too, Rick. I needed to treat her with dignity and respect. She was already skeptical of the system and a little suspicious. My myth or understanding about the system, they really didn't care.  And he was a complete opposite when he came in. So I wanted to try to instill some hope that this does not have to be your life, that you can make some differences and make some choices that can move your life in the direction you want it to go. What he treated me as that I was an individual who made a mistake that I can do better. If you approach the individual from a helping standpoint, your not as apt to run into resistance as trying to invoke power and authority. So if I said I needed help, then he didn't say, well, I'm going to find treatment for you. He said, call and find treatment. So he put the options back in my hand to look for things to seek them out. Having options after prison is a big issue with another former offender, Tony Delier.  Delier served more than six years in federal prison for distribution of cocaine. I mean, I just had a lot of things going for me. I have computer skills, language skills.  If we can't be helpful to persons in making that change, we're not helping them get themselves out of the situation that brought them to prison to the criminal justice system in the first place. Jeanine Frank was Delier's probation officer for about a year and a half of his supervised release. They need support. And from whom are they going to get support, if not the probation officer who's supervising them? And we have to support them in such a way that holds the person accountable and protects the community. Delier is now an attorney, most often representing defendants. I'm really optimistic because they have some new programs here where one of the district attorneys is actually working on mental health issues in the criminal justice system. If you don't immediately start working with people to make sure that they have the options and the vision of the future, that you've put them right in the midst of temptation without giving them the time to have a vision of the future. If I want Tony or other people to succeed, sometimes I may have to go the extra mile to help them do that. Delier says the frequent conversations he and his wife had with Frank are one way she helped him. We weren't talking about what are you doing next week, Tony. We were talking about what are you doing next month, next six months, next year down the road because one of the problems that people have is the same problem I had before. Their horizon is just a couple of months down the road. Well, certainly one of the skills that I think are absolutely necessary is to be an active listener, to be engaged in conversations with people but listening so that you can hear more than just the spoken message. Tell me about the process. Did they just send you a letter of rejection or how did it what happened? No, they never sent me a letter of rejection. They kept sending me letters asking for more information about various things. Attitude also plays a big part in the officer's work. One of the key things is to not be judgmental and it's so easy to just stereotype offenders, especially if they have a long criminal history thinking that, oh boy, here it is. They're not going to change. Yes, people do make mistakes, but they can rectify it if they have the right support behind them. I don't try to ignore the past. We have to deal with the past, but try to give that person a chance to write a new slate, to write a new history. Even when I had relapsed, he gave me an opportunity to seek help. He didn't say, okay, you go straight to jail. He worked with me and so with that, that made me more motivated to seek treatment so I never stopped. We can't make someone change. We can only provide the atmosphere for them to change. We provide guidance, we provide structure so that a person can change. I look at him as a teacher. He put the information out there. He gave me avenues to try, options to look at, and when I messed up, he allowed me to pick it up. He was there to support it, but he allowed me to choose my road. I try to let the people I work with know that I do care about them, that I am involved. I want to see you successful, and hopefully you want to see you successful. We want you to win. We want you to achieve your goals. Everybody wins when you do well. When you do well, you get a chance to be with your children. You get a chance to be productive in society. These officers make a habit of getting as involved as possible in offenders' lives. Your employer, actually talking about what you're trying to do helps you set goals, and she did that pretty regularly, and I can go into court and people just know that I really believe in my clients and I really believe in my point of view, that I'm not just in there saying it because that's what I get paid to do. I think one of the best skills I have is that I listen to people. Because the U.S. Attorney had told me that they'll never consider those state support systems. The secret to listening is to talk less. She helped us by essentially having us explain what's going on and where we're headed. And I don't try to force my ideas and beliefs on people. I try to work with them within the scope of their own belief system. You know, a lot of people say, well, you can't be a lawyer because you were imprisoned. You know, I had this dream, and then, you know, Janine helped me, you know, talk about the steps I had to do to do it so that we could do the things that needed to be done. The officer needs to be a diagnostician. You have to be able to tell at what level the offender is at, what they're ready for, and how best to approach that individual. She really worked with me around final exams times and things like that. You know, she actually scheduled things around my schedule. At the time I was working three jobs and going to law school, that made a difference for me. You have to be willing to try different approaches with people to try to get them where they're at and try to meet them where they're at. Rick brought me out into the community to speak about drugs and to speak about how it could affect your family and children. So he got me involved with outreach in the community with people. Ujima is a counseling service for African-American families in Madison. Far once came here as a client. Now she's the interim director. But now seeing that she is helping other people getting off of crack, I think that's really what this is all about. My goodness, it couldn't ask for a better outcome where she has been able to use her skills for education, her determination. The teacher can put the information out there, but the student will have to pick it up and read it and study it. And the only way they can master it is that they experience it. Officer's involvement in offenders' lives protects the community and helps the offenders. I was able to determine that, in fact he was being law-abiding. And what this allowed me to do was when Tony needed an advocate, I could be that person for him. When he needed some assistance getting into programs at law school, I was able to do that. When he needed to travel out of the country for a class, I was confident in making that request to the judge. One such request to the court involved allowing Tony to go to Mexico for intensive Spanish language courses. And drug dealer going to Mexico that probably doesn't seem intuitively correct to a lot of people in her job, but she talked to the people in various organizations to make sure I wasn't under investigation, that sort of thing.  Badger says that the public and the court usually hear only about offenders who violate their supervision. They don't hear about the ones who make it.  Hanson wants to emphasize a different message. That offenders can change, that there are success story after success story out there nationwide. You know, for somebody like me that's really trying to be successful, it helped a lot to have an agent that wanted me to be successful and was willing to actually do some extra work to do it. I shouldn't be in this job if I don't believe people can change. There'd be no need for, I'd just be taking up space. That's our program for today. We want to hear your comments and evaluation and also your ideas about topics you want us to cover. Please contact us at the address on the screen. Click on FJC broadcasts on the FJTN and then click on court to court to select the evaluation form. There are two forms. One can be printed, filled out and mailed or faxed to us. The other can be completed online. Both forms invite your ideas for future topics. Please join us for our next program to learn how one court makes career development available to all staff. And we'll see what viruses and bugs can do to a healthy computer. On behalf of everyone at the Federal Judicial Center, I'm Michael Burney. Thank you for watching today.


All right, it is five o'clock. I will call the transit commission to order So we have some new members here, so we're gonna be doing a quick roll call Chad Palachuk Heather Cleveland Sarah canal Alder Barb Felde Alder Tray Mitchell Yeah, is the chief online. Do we have anyone else online and Mayor Sorenson is present All right, Alder Decker is excused in Roy Kloss is excused for those in attendance Would you please stand for the pledge of allegiance? All right chief is here now All right, so we do have some new faces here So if you both would like to we'll just kind of go down the table and we'll introduce ourselves And we'll kind of go around the room too because we've got some staff So my name is Ryan Sorenson. I'm the mayor Yeah My name is Heather Cleveland. I Recently started a business here in Cheboygan called Green Bicycle Company and the focus of the company will be Commuter Bicycles and commuter bicycle gear, so I'm really happy to be part of the transit commission I Also was a small part of the non motorized transportation grant at the engineering consulting firm that I was working at My background is in civil engineering and urban planning, and I also have Six years of nonprofit experience and I'm happy to be here My name is Sarah canal. I Move back to Cheboygan after living in Chicago about I moved back about five years ago after living in Chicago My entire life. I've never owned a car in my entire life I've used mass transportation always and I'm very excited to see what I can do to Change the mass transit system here. I absolutely adore the transportation drivers that I've dealt with Because I take the buses Constantly the system is is great. That's in place now the buses are spotless My background is marketing communications and fundraising I've had some great jobs in Chicago, and I hope to use some of that background to use to further the Mass transportation system here. I'm all to prison barb Feldy District one and council president. I was on the transit committee Many years ago and asked him how long and I said well pre Perez so it's quite a ways back I'm sure things have changed a little since then That's it. I'm Chad Peleshek. I'm the city development director, and I've been with the city now since 2007 and served on the Transit Commission since 2010 when I became the director Introduce yourself Oh, sure Chief you want to introduce yourself to the new folks? Chris Tomergalski. I'm the police chief, and I've been on the transit Commission since 2010 also Trey I'm Trey Mitchell alderman district nine and representative from the finance and personnel committee on the transit Commission And I have been on the Commission for about a year now And I'm Derek Mink. I'm the transit and parking director for the city of Sheboygan I am a transplant to Sheboygan from neighboring Manitowoc. I've been here now just over nine years And serving as director for the last seven plus years So I like to welcome all the new members to the transit Commission I look forward to working with you Over the next several years. I am thoroughly excited to have a nice diverse group of individuals on the Commission Users individuals that are familiar with it non motorized which master ends it likes to pair with very well So I'm excited to have you guys on Commission And also Ryan Mayor Sorensen in his new role on the Commission as well So I welcome you guys if there's anything that I can ever do or be a service to you Now and in the future don't hesitate to ever contact me and I look forward to again working with you guys. Thank you And you want to introduce yourself? Good afternoon, I'm Ann Keller I'm the administrative coordinator for Shoreline Metro And I've been with Shoreline Metro. It'll be 21 years in June. So I do have a lot of background Thank you. Thanks, Ann Right. So since this is a new New term of the transit Commission we have to elect new officers So I'll open up the floor to nominations. Are there any nominations? Mr. Chair, I'll nominate the mayor I'm gonna respectfully decline Just don't want to put too much of my plate right now. I would actually like to nominate Heather Cleveland If she would accept Yes, I accept I think okay, the answer is yes, but I'll need to know more about position and yeah And Derek Derek will look connect you and they'll talk more to Any other nominations any other nominations any other nominations Seeing none All those in favor of Cassie Nana spout for Heather Cleveland as chair of the transit Commission, please say aye Anyone opposed chair votes aye congratulations Heather. Thank you. Do you want me to run the just the rest of the meeting or yes? Okay, we'll do election of vice chair for the election Commission any any nominations for vice chair of the committee I'd like to nominate Sarah Sarah do you accept the nomination? I accept all right Is there a second? Any other nominations any other nominations any other nominations seeing none all those in favor of Casting a unanimous ballot for Sarah canal as the vice chair of the transit Commission, please say aye Hi Anyone opposed chair votes. I congratulations Sarah Is there any public input all right What a long is there motion to prove the minutes from our February 16th meeting for a second Second motion by Chad second by Barb discussion on the minutes for a previous meeting Seeing none all those in favor of approving the minutes, please state aye Anyone opposed chair votes. I the minutes are approved Okay, 3.1 2022 2026 capital improvement program CPI for Shirley Metro for the and the parking utility Derek Thank You mr. Mayor Just for your information Heather and Sarah.  I'll I'll be honored to switch with you So for your for your consideration tonight is the revised 2022 through 2026 capital improvement program for Shirley Metro in the parking utility Just a little bit of a backstory for perhaps the the new members Annually as part of the city's capital improvement program each of our departments are Charged with the task of presenting capital needs and requests as part of our ongoing I guess replacement of our assets and in general maintenance of our assets so for consideration, I'm presenting revised and updated list for calendars 2022 through 2026 of Which I believe 2022 is really the only one that is being taken action on at this point The other four years are just for preliminary and planning purposes So if you open your packet up, you're gonna see I Don't have much to present especially in parking We have no project schedule for 2022 and the project that is actually scheduled for 2023 is likely gonna fall off the the schedule here probably for next year so And then there's only one other project and that's a major Redevelopment of a parking lot in the riverfront area. I know that probably doesn't mean much now But we'll get into a little bit more of what parking does Maybe on a side meeting with you guys But that's really the only project that's going to be in the five-year capital plan for the parking utility at this point Switching over to transit. This has kind of been a three-year progression here to get where we are with our capital needs But obviously one of the critical elements to providing mass transit other than the human Capital is the physical capital and that is buses So going back a little bit We received our first brand-new fixed rail buses in 2019 and those are the first buses we had received in in nine years Which is wasn't a very healthy replacement schedule, but nevertheless we worked through the challenges and We're awarded some grants to do that. We took receipt of one bus last year through a state program the VW mitigation program if you've heard of it before and Then we were in the works of applying again for a second round of the VW mitigation funding And then along with being a non-attainment area. We are eligible for what's called congestion mitigation and air quality control grants See Mac for short And we were also awarded buses through that grant. So all in all We were awarded 12 buses to be funded Over the next couple of years We did a little bit of work through a couple of those programs and then working with city administrator wolf and his staff to rearrange all those buses into 2022 So when your capital in your packet you're going to see the five-year capital needs plan for shoreline metro and you're going to see There's a whole lot going on in 2022 and then after that It looks pretty clean and that's because we moved a little we move some projects around I'm happy to report that out of the 12 buses. We were granted We're funding 10 of those vehicles and purchase orders have been issued for those 10 vehicles Within the last couple of weeks and now we are anticipating a delivery schedule of late summer early fall of 2022 for those vehicles So your approval on these items is is a matter of formality I'm I'm getting this to kind of late. I actually the ball's already been rolling in the capital improvement committee But I did want to review this with you as these projects have been technically approved in Previous years and previous capital improvement programs So just for your review in future years, there's a couple pair of transit vehicles that are scheduled We have a partnership with Sheboygan County who also purchases vehicles for us on the demand response pair of transit side of things You'll see they're italicized which means that's their responsibility or their Their program year to purchase those vehicles. So aside from 2022 has made your purchase of around four point Six million dollars. You aren't going to see many capital projects for transit in the next five years. So Yeah, good question Chad asks. What does the 12 buses do to the total fleet? I would imagine in in terms of useful life and and condition and stuff So back back prior to 2019 We were driving Buses that were beyond useful life as considered by FTA, which is usually 12 12 years or 500,000 miles We don't think of our cars driving 500,000 miles, but buses their workhorses they 500 is I kind of say it's usually breaking them in because they can go much longer than that if you keep up on maintenance But in 2019 prior to receiving new vehicles our fleet was 75 percent past useful life that basically means two things We're we're driving around high maintenance vehicles meaning that they're very very costly and very inefficient to operate and then also Low low reliability. So when you have that high of a number Past useful life, you start to see both of those things happen, which is really what we were seeing happen To put in perspective here over the last couple years with receiving the five buses in 19 the one bus in 2020 That we got through Volkswagen mitigation and then the 10 that are going to be coming in 2022 That couple with the five buses that we have from 2010 will mean that 100 percent of our fleet is under useful life So we in a matter of three years will have gone from 75 percent past useful life to a hundred percent Within useful life. So that's a that's a tremendous stat and that's a credit to not only my team but Transit Commission City of Sheboygan and the capital improvements program for making that happen in such a short period of time That answer your question Chad. Okay question questions for Derek are getting the capital improvements proposals They're filledy Yeah, you have on there that there are 35 foot buses is Are those the larger buses and are they as fuel? Economic as the shorter ones Really when you come to fuel efficiency, there's there's really no such thing in mass transit buses Whether you're referring to the the smaller vehicles. Yes, you're going to get better gas mileage on a smaller paratransit type bus They're lighter. They're cut away. There's a lot of fiberglass and and in frame But you don't get the useful life on them those typically run about five years a hundred thousand miles or seven years 150,000 just depending upon where you're at. So you don't get you don't get the capacity you don't get the You don't get the longevity and the robustness of a fixed robust So you have to eventually Purchase more or spend more on those buses long haul The reason why we do stick with the or I should clarify maybe a 35 foot bus as opposed to mass transit or fixed rail buses that are 30 feet in length We used to have a Set of about five buses. Yeah, five 30 foot buses, which are 24 passenger buses. That's the lowest Size bus that you'll see in a mass transit system in a fixed rail system When you look at those vehicles as far as gas mileage, there's no difference between those and a 35 footer You can get you can get buses about 40 feet plus then you can get the One that looks like the accordion, I can't remember the name of it You know, you probably know when you're in Chicago the articulated articulated buses. That's it So when it comes to fuel economy You're going to get a little better on the paratransit buses and you are on the fixed route But the fixed row buses are going to be a lot more robust. They're going to last a lot longer We switched over to all 35 footers a couple years ago because of the fact that we had ridership growth Over the last is it nine years since I've been here We've increased ridership by 54 percent and part of that was the development of our SASD school agreement We could not put 30 30 foot buses in service because the capacity was just too great We actually found it much more cumbersome because we had to take these out of the we had to take these out of service Mid-morning and mid-afternoon because we couldn't put enough kids on board That or we needed to put more drivers out there, which is a very costly venture to add buses out into revenue service So we bailed on the 30 footers and we got all 35 footers Which allows us to essentially put between 50 and 60 students on a bus comfortably and yes under normal circumstances five six of our nine buses in the afternoon will hit that capacity so That kind of gives you a little bit more update on it But the fuel economy has a long ways to go in general on buses. It's just not something you typically look at But all of our newer buses All of our buses next year will essentially be clean diesel buses After we get this next replacement so emissions are going to be very low Fuel economy is going to be still you know if he but they are newer buses So that should improve as well over the buses that we have and just to give you a comparison We are running 19 18 and 19 year old buses right now. We actually have eight of those in fleet And they're pushing 700,000 miles. So that's what we're going to be replacing next year Additional questions is there motion to accept? I'll make a motion to accept Motion by Barb second by Chad further discussion mayor, I'd just like to add that with the approval of the The capital improvement request they then are included in the city's general capital improvements program That does ultimately get approved by common counsel and it's our these items are already included into that program All those in favor, please say aye Aye Opposed chair votes. Aye. That's approved 3.2 first quarter 2021 reports for shoreline Metro in the parking utility. All right. Thank you mayor Just to kind of maybe give a little bit of an overview here. Yes, COVID 19 and the coronavirus pandemic has significantly impacted ridership on shoreline Metro for Sarah and Heather and maybe Barb 2019 was our highest annual ridership total in close to 20 years We approached almost 700,000 trips When I started here our first year of ridership was 470,000 So that's where the 54% increase comes in and so When the pandemic hit unfortunately, we weren't we weren't going to get to that 700,000 mark as much as we wanted to So the pandemic has has impacted us our ridership was down 45% in 2020 compared to 2019 and now in 2021 we're in that rebound phase where more and more people are starting to use transit for A number of reasons granted schools back in session jobs you name it people just feeling more comfortable and safe to take mass transit In your packet, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna Diver too much away from the report, but in your packet I did include and I'll come back in the director's report, but I did include a summary on COVID-19 for you guys That you can read as to how we battled the pandemic To very important things that we were very proud of was that we were not linked to an outbreak In our organization both for our employees and for our customers And we didn't have to cancel any service due to a lack of Drivers and staff so two things we were very very proud of But for the first quarter Compared to the first quarter of last year ridership is down 51% It's going to be a little bit higher right now because of the fact that We're we had all three months This year We're all in the pandemic whereas all three months on the first quarter last year Or the first two months were in the pandemic and half of the third month was in the pandemic In revenue is down 28% At this point as well Let me see here COVID like I said continues to impact ridership and revenue March revenue is up 27% over last march. So we're hoping that's a positive indicator of recovery and returning to normal The pandemic has reached the 12 months and so future reports now are going to be Comparing pandemic numbers with pandemic numbers Revenue trips for the quarter were 9.38 trips per hour Again, I apologize. I'm rambling numbers off that probably mean very little at this point But again, I hope to educate and work with you guys in the future to help understand some of our performance indicators And so the that was the fixed route 51 down ridership but up and or sorry revenue down 28% Metro connection was very similar Ridership was down for the quarter by 38% with revenue down 35% For most of the quarter Actually, all of the quarter We shifted all of our fixed route Saturday service over to demand response that was provided by metro connection So that contributes to the ridership down on the fixed route side But does help with the ridership up on the metro connection side And hence why there's not as big of a decline in ridership in the first quarter on on pair transit And then I have some same some similar stats here for metro connection the the trips trips per hour are significantly down again And then parking utility revenue Was down for the quarter by 30% You know, it's it's one of those things that We're we're not really sure what that's going to track and how that's going to track It's always positive when we see more and more people downtown. Obviously businesses are back opening Restaurants are getting busy So I think naturally that that rebounds going to happen But I think most of our revenue is probably down in parking permits right now and and that is I think related to people working from home yet to not being back in the office and some of our major employers downtown So In your packet you do have the report for transit and the report for parking utility You'll see this report each quarter and the numbers will fill in as we go along so With that I ask if you have any questions on the quarter reports Any questions for for dere? Not yet, but I will later The report motion to accept the motion second any further discussion Seeing none all those in favor, please state aye Hi Anyone opposed chair votes aye. Thanks, director The director's report then 3.3 Thank you, mr. Mayor First thing on my on my report I did want to spend just maybe a little bit of time on this Just to update you on some things that are going on I don't want to spend again too much time on the kovat 19 stuff. I did Provide you with the white paper that was put together Serving customers during a pandemic. I actually spoke at a chamber first friday forum Weathering the storm and I put this one pager together for that As to how we combated The the coronavirus pandemic and we're able to continue providing service throughout the entire Time to those that needed essential services Including transit So if you have questions on that I'd be happy to take it at the end But I do want to go into a couple of the other items. We Every three years were required to go through what is called a federal triennial review And that's put on by the by the federal transit administration Region five out of chicago Is our oversight region? And I was happy to say that we were able to meet with them yesterday Virtually it was a a little over a five-hour session on zoom So if you've ever done a zoom call before that was officially my longest But nevertheless, it was a very successful day going back We originally supposed to have this review in august of 2020, but due to the pandemic it was pushed out And we were able to complete it yesterday We will have our final wrap-up session two weeks from this thursday. I think that's the third if i'm not mistaken In that at which time we will find out if we have any deficiencies Or any findings as they call it Back in 2017, which was our last triennial review We had a perfect triennial review with zero findings I'm not going to get too optimistic, but i'm pretty certain we probably are going to get a zero finding triennial review this time again Very successful a lot of a lot of work went into it over the years between my staff and Many city departments. So again, thank you for that and I will be sharing that results with you guys As soon as I receive that I'm number three. I've already talked about bus purchases with you gives you a little bit more details As to those purchases For those that were on the commission prior. I've I've updated on a possibility of the town of shabuagan Opting in for transit services that has since been halted And they have put that on the back burner again. So we will not be pursuing any transit relationship with the town at this time But we remain open should they change their mind and and want to Start that dialogue again We recently worked with our union the union that represents the Drivers and the maintenance staff at shoreline metro. It's the amalgamated transit union local 998 To revise the current wage scale for our paratransit operators And the creation of a utility worker position I put some minor details in here But due to the fact that the agreement hasn't been officially signed yet I'm not releasing the the full details of it, but I will say our paratransit drivers. We're making under market value for their services in comparison to other transit systems and Forecasting hiring needs in the next Year or so and knowing where the current conditions are what other relative Like retail manufacturing our hiring at we needed to bump up our wage to stay competitive And still be able to hire excellent and qualified individuals. So we adjusted our wage scale Up slightly for our drivers both current and new hires And so that we can again continue the success of hiring Well qualified safe and and awesome team members for our team And then we also create a new position. It's a utility worker position that allows individuals to perform maintenance duties as well as drive buses both on our fixed road in our paratransit Over the years. We've been trying to take down the silos Meaning that employees were assigned to either driving fixed route or paratransit or performing late maintenance duties We've we've gotten rid of two of the silos and that was that we were able to Have drivers do both paratransit and fixed route The last maneuver here is to kind of tie in those late maintenance duties and offer the opportunity for drivers to fill in Doing some bus cleaning fueling of buses things like that So we've entered into an agreement to make that position possible, which will add a lot more flexibility to our part-time staff so Those items will be signed off and incorporated into the current labor agreement Hopefully making us a much more attractive option, especially for those entry-level driver positions. So Number six our harbour center express was a trolley route Will commence on june 14th and run through september 4th Our trolleys that we currently have were retired Retired because they are tired We are trying to get one back up and running just to get us through But i'm working with chad and city administrator wolf on hopefully procuring a new trolley Use probably trolley to be used in our service But we do for for you guys that that don't know we do offer a trolley route throughout the South pier riverfront and downtown areas throughout the summer It's been a very successful venture for us over the last couple years So we wanted to keep that tradition going especially after last year when we didn't offer the service So hopefully we can rebound that service this summer by Opening it up again and and making it better than ever And you'll see in your packet. I think there was a row guide for the harbour center express. Is that true? Yes, okay. Good. Thank you A couple more items hot spot is my next item here. I'm currently in discussions with a mobile payment company called hot spot Um, they offer mobile payment solutions for both transit and for parking many many individuals or many companies like this in the industry have primarily focused on one or the other but hot spot has Has elected to go and incorporate both Which is very attractive for us. Um, so I've started some discussions. We are going to have a Presentation later this month that brings in additional city officials The the police chief christa magowski and city administrator. Todd wolf will be able to attend that as well Because obviously there's the enforcement side of it So it's not just parking utility doing the operations. It's Also our police department who does the enforcing And their cso's that do allow the customer service downtown. So it's it's really a triangle That makes up our parking utility So we really need everybody on board finance operations and police To make mobile payments happen. So hopefully we'll be moving ahead on that And getting away from the Slowly just coin collecting in the meters. I know everybody that parks downtown would like a mobile Payment option. So we're excited to hopefully work through this and put a solution together that makes sense for this for the city Um Last item that I really have for you guys on-demand service. Um, so during the pandemic we Experimented with using on-demand service instead of fixed-route service Um, that was kind of alluding to maybe barb's question about using smaller buses instead of bigger buses It's called right sizing public transit. So we we started looking at areas where we can right size And perhaps provide on-demand Services very similar. I don't like to use the word uber or Taxis because I like to think we'll do it better. But It is a cost sharing ride sharing program That we would like to try to develop and that would better service perhaps areas of shabuigan Our growing industrial park on the south side and then also our partner Minincipalities with the village of kohler Increasing their needs and different areas for public transit services in the city of falls as well that shares in those things So we're looking at developing a third transit option at this point that Most I wouldn't say most in wisconsin, but probably most systems across the united states are starting to look at it Also known as micro transit If you've heard that term before too so very exciting project on my staff and I have been Tinkering with over the last year during the pandemic and we hope to Bring that out and make that a reality here either layer this year early next year And then lastly just want to say thank you to everybody I know you guys are new and maybe it didn't feel like you had a hand in everything but No going forward that you're going to have a significant hand in assisting Myself and my staff with shoreline metro and the parking utility And again, I'm excited to work with you guys. So thank you for being a part of the transit commission And don't hesitate to contact me if I can ever be of service to you guys. So with that, mr. Mayor I am done with the director's report Thanks, derek appreciate it questions for derek As they're about to accept the director's report second motion by chad second by bar additional comments Seeing none all those in favor of accepting the report. Please state. I I Anyone opposed chair votes. I that's approved. Thank you, derek. We've exhaust the agenda next meeting will be determined Is there motion to adjourn Second motion second to adjourn all those in favor of adjourning.  I we're adjourned at 5 35. Thanks everybody


Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, Stu Miniman. We are joined by Harry Maurer. He is the Senior Director Programs and Tools here at Red Hat. Thanks so much for joining us, Harry. Thanks for having me. So I want to start out by talking about the product launch that you are announcing this week, a new set of developer tools, OpenShift.io. What does it do? What does it not do? Break it down. Sure, absolutely. So on the first day of the summit, we announced probably one of the largest developer tools announced since we've had in a long time. And it's a new, brand new product. It's a hosted online environment for building cloud services, whether you choose to do that as a microservice or a monolith or whatever architectural pattern you choose. We provide end-to-end tools for development teams to build them and host them on OpenShift online. So when I say end-to-end, what that means is it comes with everything development teams need to plan, code, analyze, and deploy their applications. And if this were the 90s, we would have called it a new ALM platform. But now it's DevOps, right? So it's our new approach to DevOps. It kind of completes the OpenShift experience and makes it easier for development teams and developers to build those applications and host them on OpenShift online. Why did we need a new approach to DevOps? Yes, exactly. So with this release, we were really trying to solve three fundamental problems. The first is we see a lot of our customers spending probably too much time and money to integrate and maintain their tool chains. We know customers have entire teams dedicated just to integrating all the tools that they need and keeping it up and running. We want to take that off the table. We want to make it really simple for our customers just to get coding and not have to worry about creating this entire end-to-end environment. We feel like a lot of this stuff has been commoditized in some way and it's not really differentiating. If you can integrate your tool better than mine, it doesn't really help you produce better code at the end of the day. So we just want to make that simple for our customers. Second thing we want to do was make it really easy for developers to use containers in development and help them get started faster. So developers can spend as much as 50% of their time just maintaining their local environment to do Dev and test. What we want to do is make it simple. One click, automatically create containerized development, testing and staging environments without the need to type Docker commands or learn Kubernetes files, make it super simple for developers. And then the third thing we want to do which we think is really unique is help developers make better decisions. This is one of the things that gets overlooked in the whole DevOps process is that developers have a lot of freedom of choice to choose things, basically anything off the internet that they want to use. And a lot of times development teams and developers aren't quite sure if it's the right decision. And so we're taking an analytics-based approach to helping solve that problem. We've created a new AI service that's built into the platform that analyzes their packages that they choose based on 15 years of history that we have working in open source projects plus other data that we use. And it really helps developers and we help developers make better decisions because we recommend packages based on that information. So if we see a package that they chose that might have a known vulnerability or that is one that developers frequently don't use, we flag that for them and offer suggestions for better ones for them to use. Nudging them in the right decision, right way. Harry, been to a lot of shows where we're talking about digital transformation. You know, it's kind of a trope these days that says, you know, software is eating the world and every company is becoming a software company. Or is a software company. Or is a software company. Everything from, you know, the banks to whatnot. Maybe, do you have some examples of what, you know, some early customers that have been playing with OpenShift.io, how does this help them along that way? You know, learn from your peer and therefore you'll know when to jump in. Yeah. Well, we don't have any customers on it now. This is one of those projects that we've been developing over the past year and we really just announced it today. But we did take a lot of feedback from customers and saw what they were doing. You know, if you look at, you know, probably one of the obvious ones that we look at are like automotive companies, right? You know, the four wheels in the engine is the commodity part of the car, sort of today. You know, much of the decisions you make are based on the technology that you choose. So it's really important for them to differentiate at the technology level. And, you know, you only go so far with hardware. It's really software that powers everything else. And so you could think of, you know, most car companies are now, that's how they become software companies. It goes down the line. You know, if you think of banking, if you don't have a mobile banking app, is that a bank you're going to choose, right? And so it's, you know, it's, you know, it's pretty obvious examples of companies that are now software companies. So let's, if I'm an automotive car and saying, okay, I got to worry about autonomous vehicles and all the competition, how will OpenShift I.O. help them move forward faster? Sure, well building software is building software. No matter where you deploy it, right? And so the process that you go through to get your team to envision the project, to set up the project and then divvy out the work and then have the work be done, OpenShift I.O. provides all the tools to do that. And then once the developers get working on actually coding and doing the testing and everything that developers do, one of the things that we provide is, like I said, every developer struggles, whether you're developing for something in a car or somewhere else, struggles with the idea of setting up my local environment, setting up my dead environment. Like I said, OpenShift I.O. makes it really simple for those developers because we can let them choose predefined technology stacks. So in the case of the automotive maker, they can set a corporate standard for what type of technology stack they want to use. Developers choose those stacks and then we automatically create a containerized environment for them to work off of. And that where they're working doesn't have to be their local machine. We host it for them in the cloud. So they never have to install anything or worry. Again, the other thing that they don't have to worry about is it mismatch from everybody else working on that software? So we ensure consistency across the team and what's going in production. So we minimize the risks there. And it doesn't matter if you're building a banking application or an embedded application. Those, the steps are the same. And that's why I feel like it's commoditized at this point. It really is non-differentiating. So if we can streamline that whole process, we feel like it's the right decision for all developers. I want to talk big picture here about the space that you're in. Before the cameras were rolling, you were telling us about your prior career at Microsoft, but you've been in this developer evangelism. You call it an evangelist space for a long time. Can you tell us how it's changed over the years? Yeah. So the obvious durations of going through the technology fads is one thing. Now we're back to multiple microservice type architectures and those sorts of things. So the technology trends and fads always come and go, but I think there's one fundamental shift that is sticking more. And it's not necessarily about the individual developer. It's about development teams. It's how do you get the entire team to function well? How do you build not just better code, but better applications? And how do you fix that end-to-end experience, right? Because at the end of the day, the way developers add value to your business isn't by writing another line of code that doesn't necessarily have bug. It's how do they ship better software faster? And so this focus on teams and the end-to-end process I think is a fundamental shift that we've, well I wouldn't say it's a shift, maybe it's a maturity that I've seen over the 20 years almost that I've been doing this. And so that's why we're really honed in on that. And I think another thing, people ask me questions about, we see these new modern types, new modern trends in application development, mostly containers and microservices, and they usually put them together. And I try to tell people not to do that because they're two separate things. And I think the one thing the industry has made a decision on is containers. I think that that is the new, I call it the atomic unit of app execution. No matter where they're going to execute their app, they're not going to be in a container. Now whatever pattern they choose to use inside that container I think it's still for debate whether it's microservices or some other sort of pattern that they want to use. So I think focus on teams and shift to containers and a new type of level of isolation I think are two big things to see. And just to be clear, right? You're saying that if I'm choosing microservices I'm probably going to use containers but just because I'm using containers doesn't mean I'm using microservices. Exactly. And yes, exactly. And even in the case of microservices it depends on how many containers are you going to use. Do I put, is it a service per container? Is it some level of services per container? I think there's a whole set of technology there to help manage people moving into that space for, because complexity grows pretty quickly when you start to get into that world and we're going to focus on tools for that as well. Yeah, I want to get your opinion. The question is also how much does the developer, where in the stack do they need to worry about? Can they just focus on writing the application? Do they have to worry about what, how far underneath it do they have to worry about? What's your thoughts, things about, we talked about containers, Kubernetes going, the whole serverless development function as a service. How do those fit into your thinking? Yeah, so our approach in OpenShift.io is to have developers worry up to the framework level. Everything below the framework, don't worry about it anymore, including containers, right? We, if you saw the demos on the Summit keynote, all of that was containerized and we never once typed a Docker command, you never saw Kubernetes file, you never saw anything about containers. We just did it all for you. What you did see is choices around the frameworks and the components that I want to use inside of my application and how I express myself in code. And that's kind of where we, at least with OpenShift.io, that's where we see the delineation. I don't want developers to have to worry about containers and everything below that. It should just come for free, especially as we get into the world of serverless where, you know, it's debatable what you're ever going to have to worry about, right, at that point. So that's where we see it. When you're talking about workplace culture and you said that there's a really big emphasis on teams and helping teams make better decisions, collaborate more effectively, Red Hat is known for having such a powerful culture, a culture of candor, a culture of risk taking, a culture of openness and transparency. How does that translate into the kinds of tools that you are coming at with? Yeah, so one of the first things that we knew we had to do and decided we were going to do is we were going to build OpenShift.io with OpenShift.io, right? So our first customers are us, our cells.  We're the guinea pig. And if anybody knows anything about Red Hat, it's exactly what you said. We have a very diverse, very geographically dispersed, very opinionated set of people at Red Hat, right? And so we had to take all that into account when building the application to satisfy our team first. And so I would say the product that we're building today is a direct reflection on the culture of Red Hat, because if it can work for Red Hat, it can work for many, most companies, let me tell you. Harry, can you help connect the dots between OpenShift.io and what's happening with OpenShift and adoption there? I would think that it speaks some to the maturity and adoption of OpenShift itself that led you to this new tool. Yeah, so when we first started to build the product, which was a little over a year ago, we wanted to build a product that was going to service the entire Red Hat portfolio, which included Bare Metal, RHEL, and other platforms. But as we went through the process of building an application, we really did realize that OpenShift is becoming our default platform, right? Especially for containerized applications and what developers want to do. So we decided to maximize our efforts around building the best experience for OpenShift, because it is the future for Red Hat, right? And so the name shifted at that point, and we then went from a Red Hat branded name to an OpenShift branded name. And I think right now, the OpenShift.io name, I will admit, is a little confusing for people, and it is intended to kind of be one of the first of the family of OpenShift products, right? Over time, it may emerge and be part of OpenShift overall, but right now it's meant to complement OpenShift online, and it's the developer experience for OpenShift online. And it's free, the OpenShift.io, eventually some of what you create there ends up in OpenShift, which would be something they'd pay for, correct? Yeah, and we're trying to figure out what that model is right now. I think right now it is all free. We don't have any intentions to charge for the tools themselves. I think as developers use it and then they consume more resources on OpenShift online, we'll start to charge for the resources on OpenShift online. That's probably the most obvious model, but that's still all stuff we're trying to work out as a company. It's a work in progress. Work in progress, definitely. Thanks so much for your time, Harry. Thanks for having me. It was great. For Rebecca Knight and Stu Miniman, we hope to see you back here again for more from Red Hat Summit.