Welcome family, please. Let me know if you can hear me. Okay. Yeah, let me know if I'm coming in crystal clear. Just Hit me out with a thumbs up in the chat. All right, we're gonna start things off a little different tonight So if you guys don't know who's on the screen, this is Mr. Don Curry aka DC If you've ever seen Friday This is uh, it's the uncle from Friday, but I wanted to start here And we won't watch the whole thing until later on in the in the stream, but I wanted to start with some humor Before we get into The serious stuff.  So Well, I never forget where I came from. I won't forget that came up in the church Came up in the church, but every now and then now I go visit a white church with some white friends of mine And really I got no problem with the content of the material But they can't never break it down and make it relate to me because my background is so different Even though they got some things I really like at the white churches. They gonna let out on time. I like that Let my clock 1130 at the latest. I'm out of there. I can go to the house and watch the whole ball game Then it's a calm situation.  I'm sitting in here listening to the man say the same thing over and over in different teams Why did I let the choir sing the song so many times? 17 verses in the course between every verse in the little guy rector gonna make up a verse by his Personal problem And the building Trying to build an Astrodome or something 17 million dollars in the feeling fun by now Smith so long have that stuff in the paper just set up a newsstand outside That's why I choose to go. I make sure I patronize my own Every time I go back to the hood while I grew up.  You got to stick with them. I know it's hard I don't even know why they call it a convenience though.  I'm gonna unmute myself today But welcome welcome good evening, you know, welcome welcome back Hope you guys had a good week Hope you guys is Friday is off to a good start. Hope your weekend is off to a good start Hopefully, you know, Dr. Johnson's gonna have some time a bit later on in the stream He's grading papers right now to to happen and give his Much more polished perspective on the subject of our dialogue, which is basically Basically, I mean we've talked about it before but like what is our responsibility to the community and what is the community's responsibility to us, right and You know, I have I have several thoughts earlier this week Me and a friend of mine actually were on two different sides of the spectrum with this Deon Santa situation. I Will say, you know when I first heard the news, I was torn right a part of me You know really was inspired by what he represented But a part of me also understood why he did it so like I said, well We'll talk about it, but I'm happy to see you guys here. It's Disha. I see you aka the goat. I see you The via I see you s dad. I see you and also s dad brings up a really good point You know last week I pointed out the you know YouTube tax on Super Chat So today I actually have my cash app up So if you send comments through cash app to bless the ministry Not only will I thank you, but I also read it out so we don't have to necessarily rely on on YouTube and You know as we progress as the website is completed Hopefully we can transition a lot of this to a platform that we fully own and control But yeah, so before we get to that, you know, I wanted to bring up some stuff and I'll be opening the phone lines later on So yeah, feel free to take notes if you want to come back to something but um Mr. Mr. DC Curry the reason I wanted to start with this video. He's talking about He's making jest of how frustrating it is to patronize your own folk as he put it, you know, how how Frustrating it is to be committed to the community But you must be you must remain committed to the community like I say Sometimes it's impossible to love black people unless you love black people And I think this the stand-up special kind of Kind of exemplifies what it is that that I'm talking about Because I think the mistake we make as community first people as Hoteps In an attempt to Offset the negative narrative The prevailing narrative of the community Sometimes we over embellish The goodness of the community and sometimes we downplay some of the nonsense in the community And I think there's Dionne Sanders thing is a is a great example of that You know, as some of you guys know, you know, there were some issues that he had to deal with leading up to his decision to leave leading up to his decision to Go somewhere else and we'll talk about it but real quick quick recap you know this this uh You know, I think this week or last week Brittany Griner has been released from from russia apparently she was traded for Um the lord of war apparently the russian or the Guy who she was traded for is the or was the inspiration for the movie lord of war. He was an arms dealer he um inspired or instigated conflicts around the the world And he was traded for britney griner I want to know you guys thoughts on that. I want to know Where you guys fall on that? um I don't know enough to have thoughts yet, but just on the face. It doesn't look good and be honest um Another thing they're jackson is is they're jackshining I as well as most heterosexual men Are not surprised by what has come to the light about the the brother um, but uh When I when I received the news or when I heard about it. I was I immediately started laughing. I thought it was I thought it was hilarious um, I thought Of course, you know but He's built the following and you know, even after the first scandal. He still had 1. Something million followers And i'm sure he'll figure out a way to spin this um In other news megan and tori lanes are in court And it seems to be the case that Um, things didn't transpire the way that we thought they did Um, aka it seems to be the case that tori didn't actually shoot megan I'm interested to see how this plays out how this plays out in the media how this plays out with the me too movement how this plays out with uh female empowerment as megan is a pivotal You know part of of that that movement in that brand um recently skip and shannon they got into a shouting match on the show uh Because apparently skip was using ad hominem to discredit shannon Uh about his critiques of tom brady and shannon didn't like that and they had a Back and forth and some people are using that as an example for this is why The community is important. This is why you should have your own so Nobody can ever talk to you like you're nobody Uh We lost a brother this week twitch for those of you guys who don't know twitch is Or was the dj slash one of the Co-hosts of the ellen degenerate show And he he passed away this week um Yeah, it's a lot of It's a lot of it's a lot of stuff happening Um, if if you guys if you guys don't know we're we're on tiktok We're back on tiktok. Um the tiktok handle is wn to Talk so the number two talk and recently I posted a clip of Uh Let me see what interview was it but it was the young lady. She was talking about divestors and she started to cry she was crying because She said it's heartbreaking that women Are Giving up on black men because she thinks of great black men in her life like her Dad or like her um brother And so in that particular clip she was in tears and she was sad about the situation and she was expressing that sadness I have to tell you When I Was looking through the comments on tiktok. So it's episode 81 But when I was looking through the comments on tiktok, um Um It was it was discouraged and to say the least um I thought If anything the people would be talking shit or the dudes and the women would empathize or sympathize with the young lady um, but it was It was the complete Complete opposite the women were confused as to why she was in tears One young lady commented on her looks she called her a whale um another young lady was It is bad. It's bad and I think the the most heartbreaking part about it is It makes you consider If you somebody like me if i'm approaching this thing properly, right like my my goal with these videos my goal with the dialogue is to um facilitate productive conversations between men and women to not only show that we can have productive conversations, but to also model how to do it um And sometimes I ain't gonna lie. I'm discouraged to see that Uh that goal might not actually Be hitting the way that is supposed to um Like I said, we'll we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. Um Let me see I'm sure i'm not missing anything So we've got the bgs in the chat bgs salute brother. How you doing? um Let's see brian turner. How you doing he says j. Hobson a white coach who led Who led uh alcorn alcorn state into the powerhouse? It is today. Did the exact same thing. Coach sanders did he call or he's called a hero. Coach sanders is being vilified Yes, so Like I said, when I first heard the news I was torn, right? I was because I had heard the stories about uh, his office being broken into I heard the stories about the water not being uh, the water heater not working Him having to put his players in hotel rooms him having to feed his players out of his own pocket him having to sacrifice his salary him having to pay for updated facilities him having to bring in sponsorships on top of Attracting attention about nfl recruiters Attracting the attention of top recruits um and To for for this sell-out narrative to be how he is sent off for me Is really really really really really infuriating right and part of the you know the disagreement that I had Earlier this week is I'm looking at this more so from the standpoint of As a black man, it seems like you cannot do enough To be remembered In a good light for your own people Right coach prime's contract was four years.  You're just self-interested and you know So last week, you know Last week stream was the 50k celebration And one of the things that we talked about one of the things that came up is you know I don't know how to celebrate Right and we were talking about it and we were talking through it and I was like, you know, I need to do better But after that stream I actually like sat back and I wanted to think through What got me here like what led me to the point where I don't know how to Take in or accept my win and like a lot of Like a lot of I don't I don't know if you'll say Just Africans or black men in general Or you know black men in the south um We were raised by Mothers who showed it us Shouldered us with responsibility That wasn't necessarily our own right like I remember growing up especially as the oldest sibling Not only was I blamed for things that I did wrong I was also blamed for things my siblings did wrong Because if I was a better brother, they would be better siblings, right? So my experience in life is one that I'm always wrong Even when I'm right even when I'm innocent um and and I think as a consequence of that um, you know on top of the whole dr. Lloyd engineer thing that you know every Nigerian knows about you know your failure unless you have Your master's degree of 24 years old like there is never Enough you are never enough and in some ways I think it pushes us to a certain degree of success a certain degree of greatness um, but on the other hand now that You know we're talking about black men's mental health now that we're talking about self-awareness You start realizing some of the Some of the negative consequences of it right and for me For me, I think that's uh That's that's one of them right um earlier this week I I commented in the community tab that I think it's it's unfortunate that black men aren't allowed to be mediocre Black men are not celebrated for mediocrity and I didn't mean mediocrity You know in a negative way like is usually the connotation I meant mediocrity is like normal right like We talk about now. You got to be six foot six figures um six pack, you know all these things that are ideals whereas on the flip side the The push for marketing is to celebrate the female delegation regardless of how they show up All right, you're beautiful at any size It's not that you're too much is that he's not enough It's not that you Have a bad attitude is that he can't handle you Right and That's why I think this conversation is so much so much so much bigger For me than than deion sanders And the question that I have For anybody and y'all make sure to uh do the the poll that's in the chat But the question I have for everybody is like What is Enough like what can we do?  There is going to be another Many deion sanders Who might be considering coaching? Uh, you know people talked about jerry rice potentially considering coaching or michael vic potentially considering it And the question I don't think anybody's thinking of is like what Are those men thinking as they witness how our community Is dragging a man's name through the mud for being nothing but a net positive To the community Right like regardless even even if deion sanders is The money hungry self-centered Egotistic person that we're painting him to be Did jackson's state is jackson's state better today than it was pre deion sanders And is deion sanders better today than he was pre jackson's state? I think those answers are pretty clear And for me I think That's what's That's what's disappointing That's what's disappointing. I remember Back in back in college when I was the president of NAACP The people who made my Tenure the most difficult were members of NAACP And more specifically the other female leadership of NAACP And I say like it's hard to love black people unless you love black people because It is frustrating is hail Trying to be Community-centered Anybody who's ever done work in a community Donated whatever the case may be it is frustrating as hell Helping or doing stuff for people who look down on you For no reason for people who you can never do enough for For people who Even if you have spent the last 10 years breaking your back in service The one day that you say I need a day off.  No deon sanders was deon sanders Deon sanders made jackson state. Let's be clear Let's be clear like I think hbcu's are important I think hbcu's are vital, but at the end of the day if we're going to help our people We have to be honest with our people That was not the best environment for him He chose to do that he had good intentions And he did everything that he said he was going to do and more But the narrative still remains that he didn't do enough It's frustrating man It's frustrating Ryan I see your comment. Ryan says he did have to go to jackson state. Nobody would hire him I would I would like you to elaborate on that, you know, I'll I'll concede maybe you have More information or information that I don't have However, I know that His Ability to recruit alone Would have been invaluable to any school even d1 schools um, I also know even if D1 or d2 schools weren't willing to hire him I know there are a list of jucco schools that would have been A static just for the ticket sales alone to have deon sanders at the helm so Like I said, I'm open to pushback, but I am not fully So that he couldn't have gone anywhere else um Let's see so One of the things I wanted to point out And I've been I've been trying to give it Give it some thought but A lot of times especially during this male female dynamic conversation we talk about um The the tupac with a phd the that that archetype being the ideal um Ideal I don't know Man for women or for black women in more more particular Um, but I think a lot of times we don't talk enough about how dangerous that Ideal is from the black male perspective, right like the reckless the barbarian the Fuck everything. I'm willing to shoot at the police. I'm willing to die about whatever How dangerous making that the prototype is For black boys and black men, but unfortunately it seems like that's the prototype that our women celebrate Right, not the thoughtful not to consider it not the person really doing the work, but the person who's willing to The the the the person with the martyrdom syndrome Like a lot of people don't know Dr. King's last speech he talked about not wanting to be a martyr But yet we want to encourage martyrdom from our boys and i'm all for saving the community i'm all for you know, obviously Being willing to die about things that you care about but for that archetype to be encouraged for that archetype to be like you're not a man unless you're willing to I I think it's not right Um, we are joined we're joined by the dr. T. Sahn johnson without further ado. I'm gonna bring him up I know he doesn't have a whole lot of time today, but you know, I appreciate you being here my brother Thank you for gracing us with your presence. No, I appreciate your patience, man I owe an apology to my good brother because uh, when he asked me about this I was like, yeah, let's do it and then I'm I'm great like crazy. So that's my bad Life be life and like like I'm talking about here like Um, I still owe you appreciation even the fact that you were able to say yes is enough for me, right?  I know you have more of a nuance, you know I'm saying in-depth in-depth take on this No, I wouldn't say that man. This is not really my lane But you know, I was gonna do a show about it early this week and got caught into you know This is finals week and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah No, I think I think I think we're probably more in line than not I didn't get to hear Your entire monologue, but you know my viewpoint on deon First and foremost was that um, I don't think he was appreciated enough and I thought if anything The treatment he got afterwards was so ridiculously blatant. I mean so So horribly, you know, uh, kind of it's extended to him That anybody coming after him would pause. I mean, I think that was just really bad look in the sense that you know If you're going to lionize somebody And you're going to pedestalize them to meet to meet all of your requirements All of your fantasies and dreams about what you think they're gonna do And they don't meet your standard or decide to go another way on in any context If this is the kind of blowback they're gonna get that's not gonna inspire a lot of people to want to So do you really want to replace him?  I listened to a number of people Uh shout out to jcbass appreciate that But uh, you know, you know to listen to see the brother go You know what he had to extend out of his own pocket You know to try and build the program see him cutting his own grass Where it's just I mean, you know to have a lucrative tv deal turned down when he's trying to build up What's going on and then of course the whole debate about you know If there are resources that the football team secures How much of that comes back to kind of build the program and I'm saying this as a as an academic I've seen Students who could barely read be brought into college classes and just dumped in there and I'm in african studies You know, so they'll throw kids in there, you know, the students in there who You know really are years behind just to have an athlete You know at the campus. I've been to a number of campuses from undergrad to you know to now And I've seen this happen over and over again I used to tutor the football team when I was in grad school at temple university Football and basketball and you know, I've seen a lot of young men that were filtered through there Simply because they could handle the ball even if even though they weren't prepared and they weren't being given the support They needed the function academically. So I've seen a lot of that. I don't I don't put athletic programs on a pedestal just because I do recognize for a lot of black men. That's the only opportunity they really have But in deans, you know kind of since I'd never really seen a coach kind of You know open up a lane like that Right. No, just the things he went through. I mean the things he pointed out while he was still there about, you know, the contract about how he was treated about You know, whether or not they had followed through On the things that were agreed upon. I mean I'm not saying that those things would have kept him there, but I think they would have it would have it would have went a long way You know in terms of establishing his his faith in the arrangement they had but for him to You know to be pointing these out publicly these issues That was a bad look, you know, so, you know all in all when I reflect on dion as a You know an archetype for black men and the community as a whole. Yeah, I definitely see an alignment there Where black men are expected to be superman to make things, you know All fit and lift everything out of you know, where it is and and you know what you find This is why I came up with the term conchi sir What you find is when black men are actually doing that they're not credited for doing it They're not credited for doing it. They're dismissed. In fact, you'll turn around to people You know the pat themselves on the back for their sacrifice and completely ignore the men Who've done this and I've seen this in graduation ceremonies.  Uh, what's her name? Escapes me a couple days ago. She used to argue with patrice o'neill back in the day. Um, shemika or somebody some more No, it was the other I saw it yesterday Her name escapes me some of the people in the chat would probably know but um You know, but just the kind of you know the mizandric You know kind of take on black men and then you delve into these people's lives And they've had boyfriends husbands fathers who've been there from day one and you're like, you know But the disrespect toward men is so rampant and so well accepted That um, you know, I think it's really pushing for what we're having right now We're having a moment that I've never seen in my lifetime Where black men are actually communicating with each other. They're comparing notes and they're saying, you know what? This is this won't stand now. There are a number of responses to this I mean you have some black men that are going to delve in harder and try and build the black community in one way shape or form You have other black men that are just abstaining in silence You have others that are passport bros that are talking about leaving the country I think there's a lot of different responses. I think black men get kind of Uh put in this trick bag where we're told that, you know, we only have one response There's actually quite a few different responses that black men have toward this But overall the fact that black men are communicating and responding is something I never thought I'd see as a unit in that center because at the end of the day what we're looking at is really, you know, just kind of You know this kind of moment where we're looking back and saying, okay, we're looking at our own individual lives We're looking at ourselves as a collective. We're looking at the treatment of black men even retroactively and what we're seeing Is that mizandry is well accepted? Most people don't even know what what the term means We know what misogyny means. We don't know what mizandry means And so, you know, I think there are a lot of black men that are that have been looking for a language to explain these experiences And as they start to absorb the language that's really being developed It we're starting to see that brothers have been frustrated for quite a while You know what I mean? And so when you have these moments like with deon, this is one of the terms I talked about Last year. I called it the black masculinist term You know, and I think the clearest example of that was ice cube on the cocktails with queens interviewed, right, right, right You know, he was trying to build this program for the black community and you have these ladies that say to him Well, what about black women and he said, well, you know the programs for the black community that includes black women They said well, it needs to be something specifically for us But he didn't put anything in there along the lines of gender at all not for black males Not for any lgbt. He didn't do with any sexuality or gender. He was talking about the black community as a unit So when those ladies, you know, kind of came at him like that I called it a black masculinist turn moment because so many brothers saw that And had a response like wow It doesn't matter what what you do. Yeah Yeah, that's what I call a black masculinist turn moment. And I think that's what we saw with deon The way and not necessarily in that he left And we because I think a lot of us didn't really know what was going on with him Until he left and then you started to see the kind of public, you know, re Introduction to some of the interviews he'd done where he pointed out his problems with the university with jackson state So on and so forth, but the the vitriol At him leaving, you know, was what I think a lot of brothers responded to And there's a number of others I can point out that, you know, are big or small We could talk about stacey abrams and her, you know, black male agenda that really black men's agenda that Didn't have anything substantive for black men. I think for some men that was a black masculinist turn We can talk about the death of kevin sam I mean people that wanted to the people that literally threw parties because he died You know what I mean now keep in mind We just had a prominent feminist pass away prominent black feminist Right. Um, just pass away within the last week Was it Dorothy Pittman Hughes? It was she was one of the active black feminists with Miss magazine and so on and so forth You don't see any black men throwing parties at her death. You didn't even see black men throwing parties at the death of bell hooks Yeah, Dorothy Pittman Nobody, you know, and this is one of the things I said when kevin died. I said, you know, we've had 40 50 years of this kind of misandrous critique against black men And you still not seen black men respond with the level of vitriol that they received You know, I mean kevin been on youtube for a couple years I we could talk about decades of opera and a number of others I mean, I had to sit in graduate school classes and read these misandries You didn't have to read you didn't have to listen to kevin's annuals as a grad school assignment Unless it was in a feminist class that was critiquing him, right?  What black men have you seen? Talking about, you know dancing on her grave What Yeah, none, right? So this kind of one way and he kevin called it himself.  That's how that's that's how we're going to be regarded Absolutely and and what what's interesting is about uh an hour ago and I won't say the brother's name but um the The professor who reached out to me a while back and had me come speak to his class of women Um, he he hit me up and he was telling me that the school is trying to push him out And was actually using the fact that he incorporated my footage Into his class as a reason to right they were saying he wasn't empowering the students And they they they created other reasons to kind of make it make sense But I was like man and then his response to me was like yo, I'm done Yeah And that's what that's what broke my heart because he was trying to show them the error in their ways, but Well, we we've had Like I said, we've had a very one-sided gender discussion in many of these classes and the the concept of the academy is that it would be um um You know objective That you could actually explore ideas simply on the ground Yeah, you know, you know, you could examine, you know ideas simply on the merit of what those ideas bring But we ignore that there's a very strong political edge to this in terms of what we talk about and what we don't And so in the black, you know on the black section of the academy It's very much geared around at least in the current era, you know, the you know these kind of black feminist kind of tones And so if you if you push back against it even you know with a sincere inquisitive Academic curiosity, you know, the blowback is huge. I had a brother He interviewed on my show a couple years ago. This was the only black male scholar.  He had data Profound this brother reached out to me about three four months ago And he said can you take the video down? And I said why what's going on? He said well The feminists are attacking me my job is in question I'm having difficulty finding another one because they're all coming at me And they're coming at me because of my research My research just pointing out.  That was the offense So his whole career was in question And so the best I could do I said well, you know because this is the only interview of this kind Can I keep it up there and just take your name out of the title? He said that's that's fine Because that means that they just can't easily find him with a google search. Right, right? That's that's where we are right now. We're even when brothers who are in position and are doing the work they get punished for doing it simply simply because So the question you're raising is powerful I I think uh, you know an interesting question. I want your take on so the the last time I was on your show There was a lot of blowback, right Because of my stance with you know the whole save yourself movement Um, could you help me kind of understand? Um, maybe something I missed or the perspective That I may have not spoken to properly that caused that blowback What wait in terms of what? When I was talking about the save yourself movement and I think I can't I characterized it as men running away I think that's probably what You know a lot of the pushback Started from yeah, I think overall You have you have brothers that are very frustrated with hearing the same kinds of things and and I can say as gen xer I remember when the talking points that we still hear today really became prominent in the 1980s And you know and I think you know and it went along with some of the things You were even talking about a few moments ago in terms of being six feet tall You got to have a six pack.  You got to have six figures I remember when those kinds of things started, right? They weren't in place in forever I mean my grandmother I wouldn't be here if my grandmother's generation started pushing that line But we really started to see it in the 1980s And so with that you also got these stock kind of stock talking points, you know about how to interpret black male behavior So I think when you kind of pushed that line that brothers were running away It struck people as a very consistent, you know, kind of repetitive thing that we tend to hear From women, but here's the crux of it whether you agree with what these brothers are doing or not How many people actually sit down and listen to black men? When they're pointing out things that go counter to what people are comfortable with hearing, right? And what we call the manosphere in many ways is Is a space where brothers for the first time that i'm aware of Are able to come together and share ideas even if those ideas are unappealing to the mainstream You know, but here's the thing, you know Women have been allowed to do this in the academy in the corporate boardroom On screen over films and television shows and on plays and in writings and whatnot They've been able to reflect on the most negative aspects of their experiences with us In every context imaginable black men haven't had that stage except maybe in hip-hop Right, that was it you had this like this space where you had a couple You know a number of young brothers who were talking about this, but that was it They had all these different environments. So now with social media You really start to see black men coming together. Now. Here's the thing Many are unlettered Right Being done in a classroom where there's a certain kind of decorum that we all agree to have and we're This is happening with brothers that that are homeless. You got brothers sleeping on people's couches You got people who run banks. You got CEOs of organizations and trust me when I tell you these men have communicated to me You know what what status they have under the table, you know, the people you see in the chat with all of these You know various names that you can't make out, you know, because nobody's you know, they're not using their government names You got brothers in here that that are are, you know, six and seven figure earners That cats in here that run banks you can run their organizations run corporations trucking companies You know, you'd be surprised The expense so here this is this is a space where you see black men across class Across region we got brothers all the way from south america to australia to south africa to asia To europe all over the united states all in communication. So it's it's it's across geographical lines It's across class. It's across occupation. It's across color. It's across the income I mean every metric you can think of this space houses men coming together across all of that And including gay men there's gay men in this space There's bisexual men in this space and they're dialogue and I've had communications with them These brothers coming together and discussing things that we were not meant to discuss And we're not allowing people to determine the outcome of those discussions This is one of the reasons I've had people upset with me Well, you wait, why why don't you tell them to do this? No My job in this space is I'm trying to analyze and understand where we are and I'm providing terminology to explain our frustration Where brothers go with that is up to them. I'm not going to tell them what to do I'm going to give them the the tools to articulate themselves and we decide where we're going to go from there That's that's not happened before You know what I mean? That's not happening before and so as it's happening I'm I'm learning along with everybody else about what we're going through and you know Because they're brothers who have very different experiences from mine and anything else I've studied Right So it's an opportunity for me to take in and listen. I mean if I study black men Why would I avoid the most significant social movement of black dialogue amongst men that I've ever seen Whether it's tasteful, whether I like it or don't like it. There are things I agree with things I don't but the fact that it's happening It's what's important. So I'm here. I'm taking it in I'm listening as much as I'm sharing and I'm trying to generate a dialogue that's strictly about Black men articulating their their conditions their situation and I'm hoping from that We can actually you know figure out what next steps we want to take but this has not happened before This is this 30 40 years later after black women have had the same opportunity But they did so with corporate sponsorship philanthropic sponsorship sponsorship We've had none of that Every brother you know on youtube that has a channel. I don't care if it's if it's a hundred people or a million How many of them do you know our corporate sanction? Right Right, I mean who pays for your channel when you built this channel up and started interviewing people Who funded you just me? You know, I'm saying just me. Yeah I tell you as I started in this very room and this very office in my house a few years ago My youtube supporters are the one that paid for every single piece of equipment that I have in here that has me on camera I think I paid for the first camera in the first mic both of which all together was probably about 80 bucks at best Rest of it the supporters, you know, so we don't come from a situation where we're financed In that kind of way we're this is grassroots and again, it's going to be ugly at times It's going to be gross at times. It might offend people sensibilities even each other Right, it's unprecedented So, you know as far as that's concerned I think the blowback we were talking about that you you received and others have received Is really coming along that lines of look I don't want to hear what you know, we've heard From feminists about what they like and they don't like I don't want to hear What type of emotional labor that others expect black men to perform for them I would actually explore what my interests are. I can't tell you how many brothers I've met That could not articulate even to a woman in their relationships what they need until they were years old I got 16 year old students and or I've taught elementary all the way through grad school But I'm saying I the average 16 year old girl can tell people what she wants in a relationship I'm meeting men that cannot articulate their needs until they're over 50. Mm-hmm What is that? Why is that? What's going on? We don't think we're allowed to have any We're told what we're supposed to do and what we're supposed to want what we're supposed to like what we're supposed to believe I mean that whole kind of you know, even if you just took the conversation about what black men want aesthetically How frustrated were people about black men saying a real woman look this way or that way? Yeah, and we were called all kinds of misogynists, but how long have you been hearing this six feet tall thing? We just took height Right, we're gonna talk if we go to six two we talk about what less than three four percent of the human population But they can talk about what they want Right, but men still can if you say what you like you're already offending somebody We got whole movements around women being able to be in whatever shape they want I ain't seen one Magazine cover yet of some overweight brothers being framed as attractive for women unless it was a joke So this kind of one-sided dynamic does not work with men and men are starting to push back and people are not used to men Let alone black men They're not used to And and that's that's kind of been Part of what i've been discussing even during my interviews Is the fact that even the men who check off these boxes these arbitrary boxes women and culture have created for black men Even those men are dismissed when they have critiques. Yes, sir, right? So so for me It seems to be the case that there is a The the contempt is there but on top of that there's an entitlement So like you're you're a six figure six foot black man. You owe me Right.  You haven't done enough Yeah, you know in any functional community there are pros and cons. There's quid pro quo There's benefits and drawbacks to any relationship any dynamic any social dynamic I think it got to a point where by the time we saw the rise of feminism and black feminism in particular Women began to reframe the benefits that they wanted to have in the social dynamic So, you know, even now in a marriage or in a relationship she can stay at home She could work full-time. She could work part-time. She could own her own business, you know, she can not work at all She could have a kid. She could have multiple kids. She could have no kids. She could adopt a kid She could abort a kid. There are all these options for her For men, there's one role that's pretty much stuck in amber since the 1950s Now you can be a stay-at-home dad, but you tell me how many men garner respect when they do that Right, right And I can't tell you how many of them call me reach out to me You know text me to tell me stories over and over again about how their marriages became sexless Now the lack of respect just became all of these things when they tried to explore the options that they were told Men kind of have but we realize we really don't But even when going back to what you just said a moment ago, even when we protect and provide We're still told as a collective. We don't protect. We're still told we don't provide even even the people You are putting mount food in their mouths. We'll turn around in a social Academic context and talk about what black men as a group are not doing and you're like, I just bought you clothes. Right, right Let's finish you right these dynamics become highly problematic And I think it's finally reaching a fever pitch where You know brothers are willing to do something that they really not as a collective have we ever reflected upon And that is to look elsewhere in a variety of ways even to the point of being monks I have never met 14 months before until now Yeah I mean when I was 14, we were chasing girls left and right. I'm meeting young men that are done and they ain't even started yet Right. They're not chasing anything. They're not. I mean, I'm telling you I've sat with these young men and had conversations I'm like, how are they done before they started? But they've watched when you get down to it They've watched their parents Right their elder siblings They've seen they've observed the behavior even of the women and girls that they go to school with let alone in their homes and neighborhoods These young men are becoming very perceptive. But again, they're also getting the vocabulary And they're hearing the stories of older men That are very consistent with other the others that they know in their families and otherwise This is all starting to gel in a very dangerous way. So coming back to this whole conversation about the black community And black men's role in it black men are saying, okay, if you want us to do all this sacrifice What do I get for it because you get to play whatever role you feel like playing You know, you get to do that and you get to have government support to do that. Okay, fine What do I get and this is where the whole conversation about the table came in and that pissed off so many people The reason it pissed off people is because we've never pushed back and asked the question before Right, we were taught to sacrifice from birth to death and then we were told That that's what it meant to be a good man So to this day, many of us have grandfathers that put big mom in the house Don't nobody even remember grandpa's name It's legal birth name. Don't nobody remember. He's a picture on the wall. It's now big mama's house Don't nobody think about the sacrifice that was made Right and so if we're looking at that and saying, well, shit, if he can't be recognized, what chance do I have? These are the questions that men are starting to ask What are the answers? We're not hearing any There's a withdrawing in certain respects and again, there's a lot of different ways to withdraw I see brothers that are hardcore nationalists that want to build the community, but they're not getting married And they're not having girlfriends Provided for the longest some of those brothers have gone international They just decided to, you know, focus their international view or gaze On countries of African descent, right? So they're going to the continent. They're going to the Caribbean They may even be dealing with afro latinas. They're still trying to stay within this pan african dynamic But when you really listen to them and do what I call it when you get a beer in them and sit down and start talking Yeah, I remember you talking about that. Yeah There is red pill is anybody you've seen in the manisphere and they don't even know those times a lot of these brothers in there I've seen brothers in their 60s who've been nationalists for decades They don't even know what the manisphere is and when you listen to them And that's not because men are hateful or any of this. It's because we've had the same experiences Right. See the manisphere is just the tip of the spear. It's explaining something that's been going on for Decades, we just never had a place to explain it But there have been brothers who have been grappling with these issues Man, my grandfather used to be able to sit down. My grandfather wrote a book Of poems and short stories. Do you know, I did not understand how red pill it was until about five years Wow, my grandfather was talking about this stuff in the early 70s I just didn't have a framework for understanding it. But these issues are very old. They're not new They're really not new And it seems to be the case that like that concept is like It's it's magnified with our women because and and I had a brother He came on the show He's come on the show a couple of times. He was on the show last week, but he was telling me about how Based on what he does for a living. He's the type of brother when he starts speaking White folks shut up Like like like he's that guy, right? Whereas When he comes home when he's talking to his girl when he's talking to women in his life It's ah, he don't know what he's talking about And and that's that's what infuriates me because it's like what what are these young men supposed to strive for? Because even when they reach there, they still get that same contempt And I think that's why you see the proliferation of the pookies and ray rays because I think some of those guys just said It's no point.  I appreciate that he reminded me. I do need to congratulate you on the 50 Oh, thank you, bro. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This is just beginning. You're still gonna blow up, man I appreciate it man. I appreciate it. Thank you But now you're dead on man. I think this is a lot of what's happening And I think deon has just become yet another signpost in many ways for the expectations of black men I mean even when I listened to dr. Umar On the breakfast club talk about all the the assumptions he made about what deon was going to do Right, he was going to build up not just jackson state, but all the hbcu's it was gonna help Right This whole network and I was like jesus. Yeah. Yeah. I said when did deon ever say he was gonna do all of that He never did but somehow he earned your ire because you assumed he was going to become this You know major figure that was going to do all of this work I actually wrote my dissertation on something very similar to this Um, I called it icon construction And this is this was before I even started to deal with black men as my major, you know Research focal point But I was talking about this way that people put expectations and hopes and so on and so forth on key individuals And and hope that these individuals are going to somehow transform their environment just by themselves, you know Um, and I remember one of the professors I tried to get on my committee eventually got him on He didn't understand what what I was interested in doing. I and I remember him saying why just he had just watched the wil smith Muhammad Ali movie And I said, okay, I'll use that as an example I said, do you remember when he was in Africa and he was jogging and all the kids were running with him And then he ran up on this graffiti where they you know, they were painting pictures of him punching down tanks and helicopters He said, yeah, I remember that I said, that's what I mean by icon construction All this placed in one individual to make this sacrificial, you know, kind of Gesture that will somehow transform everything and yet at the same time you even have those who opposed this person Who would who make the same kind of thing? Now, what do I mean? Uh, we've seen corporations We've seen groups and organizations that hated martin luther king when he was alive That will now celebrate king day At one point martin luther king was the one of the most was the most hated man in america That's a fact and now he's treated like he's jesus All right, this is the reality of we saw similar things with kevin. We saw a similar thing and and this was happening to deon Just a few in the last few months the same kind of thing and the frustration and ire that he's getting is at Is because of how much he failed others expectations Despite that he never promised to do those things he did what he could from the context. He did it But when you look at it, he's making 300 000. He's donating. What almost half of that back. He's donating half Yeah, and people are saying he's still not doing enough Okay, well, how many y'all are gonna take take half of your pay put it back into wherever you're working And accept that to be enough. I mean a lot of questions There's a lot of different ways we can come through this but at the end of the day My focus is on how many expectations did you know, we're placed upon him How was he treated when he quote unquote failed those expectations and what does that mean for black men as a collective? How are we seeing what's expected of us? Right the lowest life expectancy and yet everybody expects us to keep To kill ourselves Absolutely, man.  Like Yeah, yeah, john henry. I'm sorry i said paul bunion The john henry center. Do you think this ties in at all? Oh, yeah, man. I think it definitely does It's I think it's becoming expectation of us I think for many black men that really want to to either support their community or even just their immediate family We go into overdrive when things get difficult You know, many of us don't talk about our pains or ills. We go into work mode But you know, that's something we've seen other men do that's the that's the rhetoric We've come up around when when things get hard, you know, you get harder. That's the kind of dynamic many of us have but You know, there's a point where we have to actually start looking at shout out to bgs We actually have to start looking at what impact it's it's having on us You know, whether you're talking about dj twitch Whether you're talking about, uh, you know, some of these brothers. Oh my god, there's been so many black men that have just been Dying these last couple years. It's ridiculous A lot of it stress is a huge factor That we don't talk about enough Um There's one good brother who I've had on my show. He posted something on my facebook page about a week ago He said he had two very close friends in their early 40s in excellent shape who eat well I mean who exercise regularly both of them dropped dead in the last few months You know at the end of the day We have to actually start looking at what it is that we need to process To kind of start handling these things different because I don't care what your physical ailment is stress will make it worse Right And this is one of the things we grapple with But it's a reality we all kind of know about but we accept it our community's accepted And if anything they weigh on you to work harder like like a work mule And and you know at the end of the day I'm trying to get brothers to to actually stop and reflect and I don't care what the issues are I don't judge them. I don't care if it's if it's uh anything from You know the stress of being they're working at john henry is them to for employing that john henry kind of attitude I don't care if it's colorism. I don't care if it's I don't care what the issue is If it's causing stress, we need to identify it We need to examine it and we need to actually get set up strategy of how we as a group plan to deal with it One things I talked about when I talked about dj twitch Was how we need to actually support each other Because because here's the thing There are only so many things i'm going to talk to my woman about Right and then part of that if you've ever had a woman take your vulnerabilities and weaponize it against you Let that happen one good time. It ain't happening after that We know we can talk to our boys. We know, you know, some of us know you can if you find the right therapist You can do that. But as a collective we have not established a support mechanism for one another This is something that I will credit black women for doing they'll call each other Thanks, they'll work through this is why women across race, but even in the black community They attempt suicide in much higher numbers than men Men commit suicide. We complete it in much higher numbers than women Right at the end of the day, they'll attempt it, but they'll reach out. They'll talk to each other They'll support each other the girls will get together grab some bottles of champagne I mean, we didn't all seen the war council meetings happen You know, I grew up hearing them in my living room with my mother and her friends Those were all emotional and psychological support sessions Right and obligating the stress she was dealing with the way I saw men handle that stress we went to work Yeah, that was how we dealt when we went to work. Yeah And there's a point where that becomes detrimental to our own well-being and I'm going through it now I'm not talking about this like I'm above and over it same not at all You know, this is this is the work we have to start doing and we have the opportunity to do it Because I've never seen a platform where men can could dialogue like this So we need to take advantage of it. How can I be a resource to you? How can you be a resource to someone especially during this season? You know how many people commit suicide during the holiday season, right? Right. Isolation started really take over look This is the time where you need to call one of the new boy you ain't heard from in a while What's going on with you good? And I saw it and really, you know, 50% of my phone calls is just that are you good? What's good with you? What's going on? Yeah And you'd be surprised sometimes what somebody will tell you and no and some I've had brothers tell me This is my this is the first time my phone rang in two weeks outside of bill collect You're asking me how I am. I've heard brothers Break into you know, you know what I would call the approximation of our tears. We don't always cry. All right, right We don't even know how to Yeah, you know, but I've the closest approximation to that, you know that a brother will give I've heard that just because I asked him how he's doing I didn't want nothing. I'm not asking you to do nothing. I'm just asking you how you are And he and brothers are shocked because nobody does He could be at a house full of his own family and nobody will ask him how he's doing And we've grown accustomed to it to where it's off-putting for us to be asked Hmm But we need to be able to provide that resource to one another if nobody else Because I don't think anybody else understands what brothers go through except other brothers, right? That's just me Absolutely. How do you feel like? Because you know, in my opinion, we can only talk about women for to a certain point, right? Like as we're establishing this network, whether it's the passport bros, whether the save yourself bros How do you think we can better? I guess facilitate this dialogue amongst ourselves to You know get to healing to get to You know our our goals in life independent of what the female delegation is doing to Make things difficult for us. Yeah Well, I deal with it. Yeah, I try to position it in two ways just to simplify it There's the internal and there's the external. Yeah The external is is one of the reasons we created the black male political agenda Where we're collecting Proposals from black men about what kinds of political changes we need To change the nature of our media, you know physical and social environment, right? What are the policies we need and the majority of those coming in actually are about Family court reform And if you really look through it and you notice the biggest category there is family court reform That kind of tells you the issue with women is not just because we woke up one day and decided they were evil That's not what this is We talk about this because socially politically historically I believe women have really in the black community women's interests primarily through feminism has been weaponized against the community In a very particular way. So when you look through this list of the political agenda You see ideas proposed by black men to alleviate the stress Detention and sometimes the outright injustice toward black men that are initiated through families Using a court that operates as a proxy Or her will against you. So that's a huge factor and that's that's about changing the outside environment The reason I talked about dj twitch the reason on my show we talk about suicide. We talk about Um, you know stress and john henryism. We talk about the social roles and expectations that we've had placed on us That's the internal work That's the work we have to do of of really starting to question the things we're obligated to do the things that that have been Expected of us since birth And actually given ourselves license to to question them and I don't care if other people like it or not If if I want to say if I want to say, you know what I don't know If I want to marry and have three kids out the gate I want to reflect upon why am I doing this? I don't know if I want I don't care What the reflection is I I reserve the right for black men to reflect and make their decisions Based on a clear willingness rather than a social obligation Right, that's my goal. I want us to be able to analyze why we do what we do and make clear decisions on why we do it Whether it's To marry and have kids or to stay a monk or to travel abroad. I don't even care What the outcome is as long as the man in question has reflected upon it has identified what his solution is What it is he wants in his life and can articulate why? That's what I want I want men to be able to stand on their own too and choose the life they want to live And question the social obligation placed upon them with no reflection With no sense of who he is no no appreciation for his humanity I mean, we're mostly raised by a generation of women that are telling us This is what you need to do for us and and we're not even going to deal with why Well, my entire life what I heard was what I needed to do when I met the right woman You know, I had never heard anyone tell me what she needed to do for me I love my mother. You know, I love her.  Well, this is the kind of dynamic. I'm talking about where you know and put in a part of why I'm married Um was because this is what it meant to be a good man Marry a woman take care of her You know pay her bills take her out of all the stress that she grapples with and gulf her in protection And I mean that protection psychologically emotionally physically financially, you know in every way possible, but I never knew How to even articulate what I needed in a relationship. What kind of support I needed retro, you know You know reciprocating what kind of reciprocity I needed from her I never knew how to do that That was my john henry ism. I took the full load. I expected nothing I articulated nothing and if I started to break down that was my fault Right These are the kind of thing but again that was what I learned because I was never taught You you as a man can ask for this can say that or a matter of fact can set those boundaries at the dating stage This is what I'm looking for I didn't know how to do that and to this day when I asked my students if they have a list Of requirements in the person they want to be with Only my women can raise their hands and give you a list off the top of their head And none of them have less than 10 points. They can just list it off When I asked my men, I can't even get one of them to put their hand in the air. We don't have lists We don't I mean, you know, we got you know, we got to be attracted to her. Yeah But beyond attraction, I've met I man, I can tell you I've met so few men that can articulate What exactly they're looking for in a woman what she has to have and what they won't tolerate And the first time I broke up with a woman because of something I wouldn't tolerate in her behavior She raised holy hell Because nobody had ever done that to her before right And I didn't do it to to hurt her or to make us a point for you know, everybody around us I did it because for the first time I established no I'm going to have boundaries She lost her mind because she had not dealt with anyone any man that had boundaries This this is what I mean when I say this is the work we have to do. It's internal right external And you know at the end of the day, I just say, you know, as far as community is concerned We're going to have to redefine that I mean, it makes ways community is no longer going to Is going there's no longer going to be dna based.  Who's going to be in your corner? And I think that's going to be the standard by which any sense of community Is going to be redefined as far as black men are concerned So one of the things I brought up last week You know, we talk about how on dating sites and things like that Asian women tend to be the most sought after across racial demographics and also Asian women are the most likely to marry Multiracially And and the point that I brought up was when you compare the Asian woman to the black woman for instance and all the I guess Advantages that you would assume that the women who are most sought after would have the Asian woman does not have They don't have the breasts like black Body like black women. So the question then becomes why is it that This type of woman is being the most sought after even though on paper It seems like you're the better catch and I brought up the point that it's because Asian women are playing chess Why aren't women indexing on their sexuality on their bodies on their sexiness? So when when we're seeing for for instance the passport bros, they're going to this country. It's not it's not these countries it's not necessarily that These women are just Like outright better, but they're better where it counts, right? So my question to you is Why do you think at the core our women do not feel like we're worth competing for? Well, I think one they're not taught to compete Uh, I think this is this comes down to what they're taught about black men.  We're we're a resource to be you know taken when She's ready when she feels like not necessarily an entity that has to be dealt with on a humane level I think that's part of the problem How how young women are taught to think of men and and then what the other thing I would say about that Is their view many a young woman, especially they're what they've learned from their elder women Uh advisors about men is that all men need is a wet hole That's it as long as he has a wet hole. He'll comply.  You got to have the car. You got to this or that men didn't determine that We looked at what women paid attention to and even on an emotional level You got to be emotionally present. You got to be you have to have emotional intelligence You have to listen to her and we had love songs telling us this for generations We learned how to seduce based on what women wanted Women what they learned about us is that as long as they had a wet hole We would comply Right and that's what they extend now when you talk about other groups of women playing chess That's real Because those women are not only looking for men and not only competing for men in their own cultures They're competing internationally. Yeah Yeah, and so she's studying.  I have other racial groups of women studying black men in depth You know getting a's They're not playing because these women understand that relationship is life It's a very basic concept. If you look at the data the people that earn most are married couples But you know We have this independence philosophy that we've been hit with most particularly in regard to our women We have this belief that men don't need anything but a wet hole And most of our women are not trained to bring anything else to the table let alone compete for a man Why would you compete something that you're taught is beneath you? He's supposed to come when I call when I'm ready. What do you mean? I have to compete for him I mean a guy that makes 40 45 thousand dollars a year I have to compete for him hell. Yeah Because if you look stats you realize that as much as you know people talk about black men in our community black men still do earn more When they're employed They still earn more and if you don't want to someone else will I got a neighbor right now Who met his latina wife? 15 years ago At the time he lived at home with his parents. He didn't have a job or a car Their first date was a netflix and chill. Do you know that woman came over with three homemade dishes that she made herself? She treated him like a man of value for you know without the level She didn't see him based on what he didn't have she treated him based on what she on this on the potential And what she wanted to invest in and now it's 15 years later They got two kids the last time I talked to him brothers getting ready to leave the state to do his thing On a whole another one into a doctoral program. She saw that in him and I bet money She invested in that and stimulated that and supported that on a daily basis not nagging him Not pushing him to do what he didn't want to do but supporting the things that he was interested in doing She invested in that when he had nothing right Right and and I think there's dion sander situation is just it's it's such a perfect metaphor for what's happening with the male Female dynamic in our community because what I've been telling women is Like yes, we can make fun of men going elsewhere to find women But the truth is men elsewhere are not running here to find women We have to be honest about that We have to be we have to be honest about that the brand around Black women in particular is bad and we need to deal with it, right? We can't just continue to shame men or say these men are weak or whatever the case may be And even on top of that and here goes the metaphor of dion sanders even when you have a good man Who did more good for you than you were able to reciprocate for him After he he's he you know moves along whatever the case may be as opposed to Commending him for everything he did positive that could encourage the next man to want to also come and pour in You just want to demonize him and and break him down because he didn't die there. Yeah. Oh, yeah There's a there's a real opportunity For jackson state if they haven't blown it already So and to build off of the legacy that he's already left even though he left much earlier than they had planned There's still there was still a huge opportunity for that And and I think other schools as well But I think the way they handled it was so blatantly ugly That it's really, you know, it's it's gonna It's gonna do the opposite of incentivizing people to want to pick up where he left off You know the the thing that was right there that could have been delished upon The thing that's heartbreaking a lot of people don't know that the basketball coach is moe williams He was in the nba he was in the nba not too long ago He released a video um a press conference video probably a couple days ago Maybe a week or so ago begging people to show up to the games You could see the frustration on this man's face. He said listen, you guys are packing out this 60,000 Capacity stadium to watch the football games. The basketball stadium is only 6,000 I'm begging you show up. So so at the end of the day like the only thing that Uh led to jackson state's success these past couple years and we have to be honest is dion sanders Because you have another celebrity coach at the same exact school having to take people To show up to the school. So the next lebron james Jerry rice if they decide they want to coach What what do they have to look forward to Frustration pulling their hair out.  They'll fire you with a smile boy But the reality is even that gesture has a has plays a role I mean even when he decided to leave if they handled that gracefully even though they're frustrated and pissed Thank you coach sanders for what you've done. We really appreciate it blah blah blah If you extend that kind of energy you offer the opportunity for others to come in and build on what's there Because there's a feeling of good grace.  That's a huge issue and and part of the reason it's an issue is because so many men have had the same Experiences that they've started comparing notes And because that hadn't happened prior to maybe a decade ago, it's still throwing people It could have happened in the 80s. We just didn't have the platform for it The situations were occurring. I mean black men started moving away from marriage in the 60s for a reason By the time we got to the 70s with no fault divorce being wiped off to say it everything went awry All of these things had opportunity to be dealt with earlier or at least talked about but we didn't have the platform Now black men in the last decade have started to talk about it and it's scaring people and frustrating people Because we've never done it before Right.  No, who are you to say? This kind of uh entitlement is being pushed back on and and and people don't know how to deal with it right You know, that's where we are man.  I support it and if any group Wants to entice black men to engage them First you got to see them as human beings worse That's first and foremost worth enticing Yeah, worth enticing and then you got to actually pay attention to them enough To really understand what they want And that was one of the things about kevin show that was so revealing So many women would come up and they would basically You know, they would they would put their own values on what they said men were attracted to I make six figures. I have my own house my own car my own this my own that and kevin would say well Whoever told you that that was something men wanted and you'd see that moment That moment of oh What do you mean men don't want that? Right? I think there's this cognitive dissonance moment of I was I never thought of that Yeah, you never bothered to pay attention to what men actually want you just told yourself and each other What you wanted and then you imposed it on the men that went from everything to physical aesthetics to value Well, now you got other groups of women Who have not ever set foot on in north america? Who are studying black men? Right Now whether they're running a hustle or they're a hundred percent serious It's a huge step to see groups of women You know some of these brothers have never even met women from these racial groups in their own lives And these women are studying them and saying look i am willing to play this role in your life Right And i'm not even just talking about non black women.  Yeah, that's the fact Whoa And she ain't ever been here She's still saying I got you Okay, and for better for better or worse like, you know, the uniqueness of Black men that very is very seldom like brought up is like Black black men are pretty Liberal when it comes to their expectations of their women, right?   We're most involved in their lives Even though we're not marrying like other groups are so there's you know, for better or for worse Whether you agree with it or not There's a progressiveness among black men here that you don't find in other groups of men And when you see these men dating internationally, the women will tell you the things he asks for Are nothing compared to what the men of my culture require All right, there's a good brother of mine. He was he was about 58 59 years old Um, he married a a white woman actually You know, but one of the things I noticed in this kind I've known him for years So we talked this through as he was getting to know her and when he finally laid out to her He said look I'm just gonna let you know and and in mind you it took him till he was 50 before he could even say this Said I need a woman that takes care of me In the sense of she cooks she cleans she does x y and z and he laid out what he needed for himself It wasn't based on what was on the internet. It wasn't based on what others told him to do He was talking about his own individual life because of the lifestyle he has and the kind of work he does He said this is the kind of woman I need She reflected on it for three days and she said, you know what? You're going to do all of these different things for me because he laid out what he was going to do for her as well He said you're gonna do all these things for me and all you need me to do is take Harry She was like Hell yeah And that was the first time in his life he had ever heard a woman realize that he was bringing more to the table than what he was asking for Now compound that with a woman who lives in a country where resources are fairly low or whatever else we might want to add to that If you got brothers that are willing to be reciprocal supportive yet what they require they are laying out there for you What I think some american women are going to get hit with is how the lists of what men are looking for really isn't as bad as you're making it out to be When I hear women talk about men's requirements, you know, they're real. There's a really a lot of exaggeration You know He wants me to get his slippers and kiss his feet when he wakes up. He wants me to walk 10 paces behind him No, he doesn't He didn't ask you for none of that He said he wanted you to cook and clean especially if he's going to pay the bills and take care of the house And I had that arrangement with my wife, right?  I shouldn't have to do these things and I'm like, okay. I'm working four jobs And going to school You're not working at all Cooking and cleaning is not something I'm imposing on you because you have a vagina I'm saying that this is what needs to be based on what's going on in the kind of life that I want to live and what I can provide And I have to have these discussions now. This is long before there was a man's fear, right? But these are the kinds of things that black men are saying it's it's not about slavery because that's how it's presented Well, you these men want us to be slaves. No it is And these other women in other places will show you it's not about slavery because when they take those men And they actually have a smile on their face Now you got to ask how bad was his request really? right Really how much was he really asking you to do? Hmm. Yeah, I don't know that's going to be a question that I think is going to get answered when more and more women Start competing for black men. You really figure out and maybe what he was asking for wasn't that bad And and you know shout out to uh, zuna tyler and richie mac. I've had conversations with him where he said pretty much The stuff that would make a chick here seem extraordinary Is average where he is Like the girl who comes over and you know, she's cooked you a meal and she makes the bed in the morning this this and that Like that's standard That's that's like bare minimum Bare minimum is where he's going versus here. It's like man We we have been conditioned to expect so little but have so much expected of of us and you don't realize it until you leave and man, I mean I think black men here are so How would I put it? I mean we're so there's such we're deprived to to such a degree when it comes to basic level um Hell niceness and you know I've seen men buckle at what probably wouldn't even be paid attention to in another country um You know just uh It's just sad. It's sad as hell man. I'm yeah, I'm even losing my words on this one I mean I know brothers that used to talk about going to going to diners in the south just because the waitresses would call you honey It's such a basic level You know of niceness of you know, it is the positivity of Being engaged as somebody that is worthy of basic level affection. It really isn't a lot It really isn't a lot, you know, when I find most brothers are deprived of that. They've never seen it They've never witnessed it at least not in their own lives And and when it happens to them, they're usually not ready for it. I mean really again I've had brothers reach out to me when they first started dating Uh in different scenarios different contexts and they would call and be like This woman made me a meal and I didn't ask for anything I mean, I've told this story before my boy called me once. He said I'm sitting here in my living room reading the book, right? He said I looked down. There's a glass of water. I didn't ask for that, but it was there He said okay, he read his book more. He looked down. It was it was it was some tea Hmm looked down again. There was a sandwich This brother was so off put by this. He was like, why is she doing this? Yeah, it's a setup You know, and again going to your point in another country Standard practice. Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, I've been in situations where we've had I've been in relationships We had whole arguments over me asking for a glass of water That was considered slavery And I'm talking about again, you know, I love my wife, but I'm talking about my wife I'm asking for a glass of water and that's and that's and she was a unicorn compared to many of the women I met Not all but many so I'm saying, you know, if it's that difficult for black men on that consistent a basis And there's going to be a mass response to the mass absence of basic level affection and respect There's going to be a response and you can dismiss it. You can you can tell these men you don't want them anyway. Well, okay And that should be you shouldn't have a problem And these brothers look elsewhere because they're they're not worth your time anyway. Okay But before I let you go dr. Johnson, what do you think it would take For women to actually engage in this dialogue in earnest And realize what they could be potentially missing out on If the passport bro community continues to build and and more examples like dion sanders come out that are showing black boys and showing black men that You can never do enough. So you might as well just find your own happiness and find your own peace of mind Well, let me first add to dion by saying I had a conversation with judge joe brown A couple months ago. I've done through i've been four or five. Maybe shows uh with him And uh one time he said to me something that blew me away because I was pointing out as generation x I came up during the time period where the three-figure income requirement Was imposed and the subtext of that was you'll get respect As long as you meet these standards and six figures being one of them And he said young man, you don't get respect when you make eight And he was speaking about himself. Well, he was speaking well. He was speaking about himself and black men He was saying you don't get respect when you make eight figures So that's that goes to what you're saying about dion where it's like it's never enough So going to your question as to what it will take. I think I think two people Come to mind who've already laid that out in very simplistic terms the two that come to mind are kevin and bgs Kevin said You know coming to the conversation in good faith He always he talked about coming in good faith a lot And the reason he talked about it was because It was something that we need to see more of if you're gonna have an honest conversation You can't come into space just to pick fights Especially if black men are purposely talking to one another You're not even invited into certain spaces spaces and you're seeing people come in just to have arguments That's not coming in good faith. One of the things bgs talked about was a redress of grievances In other words, we've listened to everything that you believe is wrong with black men Or at least 40 years if not 50 At what point do you listen to black men beyond Your fears of what what we're saying means in other words, you know people didn't really a lot of people didn't listen to kevin They listen to what others said about kevin Like if kevin wouldn't talk about that they'd come on his show with an opinion about him And he'd say well have you listened to my show? Well, no But my girlfriend told me about you. I've heard family members say this very thing I've heard them talk. I've had family members and women that I've known for years who've said the same things about me Well, you hate women. Okay. Well, when did I say that? Well, well the guys in your comments don't seem to like women much. I said, we're right. Right. I say And then what you find is not only did they not watch any of the shows I've done and I got again family members Who haven't watched not one show I have, you know, you've not read one paper Who've not read one publication that I put out but will tell me what I think about women But so they're not listening to us. They're listening to their their emotional or response to us They're listening to their the reflections of other women about us. It's more about how they feel About what's being said rather than what's actually being said So there needs to be a redress of grievances where you actually do have to hear black men's frustrations and issues because they are real They have real world impact. They affect the quality of one's life Again, go through that first out of the 16 point political agenda black male political agenda The majority of those points in family reform are about things that black men directly experienced It's not fabrications. It's just not picking at women just because they feel like picking at women It's real world policies that affect how these men live They're living on their on their mother's couches. They're living damn near homeless and are employed Behind some of the things that are done. So the so first and foremost that redress of grievances is real In terms of addressing what black men have experienced and actually hearing it And not just listening to argue Which is tied to coming into the discussion in good faith. And if you're not willing to do it The advantage of a group of women that don't have any angst or antipathy Or resentment toward men becomes that much more appealing Sometimes the attraction you might have to a woman from another culture Is simply because she comes at you with no resentment Right I mean, what again kevin used to say some men will go down in attractiveness to go up in cooperatives I've been trying to preach. I've been and that's why I bring up the asian woman thing asian women are not thick Asian women are not these curvaceous sex symbols Like our women are here, but yet and still they're the most desired and we have to look at that That's a lot of different. Yeah, it's it's a lot of different issues that that play into and and a lot of the time It's it's dismissed as something that's hypersexual Right when you have this whole conversation about whether it's passport bros or dating abroad or dating in any other non-traditional context for black men historically It's distilled into what you just want to have sex with white women or you just want to use these women from that country for sex Yeah, I'm sure there are brothers that do that. There's hell. There are women that do that that go to other countries for that We that that's not hard to find But I think people drastically underestimate how many brothers are looking for serious girlfriends serious wives I think they severely underestimate how many black men are serious about finding long-term companionship I think they underestimate it and they dismiss it as something that's purely sexual And you're gonna miss out on a lot of good men like that Oh man, man, and and I brought it up earlier like some of the feedback that i'm seeing now that i'm back on tiktok A lot of the feedback is now coming from women again and it's It's frustrating man It's like I get I get some of the critiques from you know The passport bros the save yourself bros because of my personal stance but like literally just like kevin just like Um, um, you know other people who've tried to talk to women It's like even that if you're not doing it a certain way if you're not even though my tone is relatively Good, it's still not good enough right like it's it's never ever ever enough and it's frustrating man It's frustrating. I'm telling you this is somebody that sat through like I started college in 1992 I finished my doctorate in 2008. I sat in feminist courses black feminists white feminists I sat in so many different courses that were really about In terms of the way they approach feminism that really came down to villainizing men and and what the reason I raised that Is the expected posture that I was supposed to take as far as many of these women were concerned including the professors was to be quiet To to be quiet and if I spoke I needed to apologize for men as a group You know what I mean? Which meant that I had to take I had to take all of the critiques and treat them as valid with no pushback That was the only way I would be respected in those spaces If I held that that mantle of your right everything you're saying about us is right The problem is now that men are starting to speak women are still bringing that entitlement many I should say into the discussions rather than Those that are coming and saying you know what? We need to hear What the minute and if we're going to push back there needs it needs to be done with some respect Because you know, I've been in situations where not only could I not push back even when respectful But my grade was based on whether or not they like Right me graduating with a degree was based on how you know I'm saying these I had to actually engage this in an environment where my my my career or die. Yeah Was on the line. We're talking about online discussions You got people that won't even come into the discussion in good faith Even though they have nothing to lose. You're not you're not going you're not going to get an f and not be able to graduate All you got to do is actually listen and respectfully engage and not do so from the standpoint of being defensive And attacking back just because you're angry about what's being said rather than as I told one woman in the comments Who didn't like what some of the brothers were talking about on one of my shows? I said well, has it ever crossed your mind that maybe you should ask yourself what these brothers experienced that brought them to this opinion that you don't like Is it that they are just being hateful to be hateful or did these brothers actually have an experience that led them to the position They're at did you bother to ask? Did you bother to listen? Men by and large usually have a reason for the things that they're arguing about Did you bother to ask them? Well, no, I already know. How do you know you ain't talked to these brothers before you don't know You know, but that kind of that kind of nuance doesn't I don't think it's there anywhere near as much as it needs to be And some of that needed to happen five years ago Yeah, some of that needed to happen five years ago You know something Dennis Berling said in regard to kevin. He said kevin as much as you may you know Some people may have hated him. He was really about trying to repair the black community He was he was talking about families. He was talking about marriage. He was talking about people coming back together again Once he died Conversations went a very different way Especially after we saw how he was regarded right Okay And there was only one kevin. There was a hundred different uh, uh, steve harvey's Right. We're telling women what they wanted to hear about men You had one kevin pushing back against that in a different way and the level of vilification was ridiculous and after he passed conversation went, you know on a whole different direction I just um I hope at some point that um People are willing to actually listen but There's a long history of what black men have endured that has not seriously been engaged even in the academy Even in the academy, so It's time. It's past time Absolutely Listen, dr. Johnson. I know you got to give back to grading. Thank you so much for pulling up I'm not doing a four-hour stream today. So I don't know if if you have time. Can you have uh, take some calls maybe or or you got to go We can do a little bit of that. Yeah. Okay Awesome. Awesome. I'll drop the link in the chat. I saw some comments saying that uh, You know, some people wanted to come up. So I just wanted to Respect your time But what what are your thoughts on? Um I don't know if you you've had a chance to see any of my recent interviews and I started another series called the black marriage master class I'm trying to trying to uh Appeal to to see if this can truly be a middle ground BGS called it the purple pill. He said my channel is the purple pill And I'm I'm still not seeing that happen. I'm still seeing Men are the ones engaging Um, and the women who are engaging are already You know married or already, you know already get it But for the ones who don't get it, I think I'm not seeing them Engaged with the content the way that I thought once I went in that direction Um the single women aren't really engaging. I'm not seeing it. I'm not like all the black love folks. I'm not seeing them here I think the way a lot of this has been marketed to women is that you know, again the steve harvey's You know, even some of the youtube personalities It's really based around what women want And and how they want it presented They're selling to women because there's a built-in incentive to do so.  Your channel is going to stay at a fairly low level. It's like hip-hop people don't understand that People do not understand that it's like it's like hip-hop in the 80s If you were only selling to black folks you the best you could do is go gold As soon as you start selling the white folk, you can go platinum It's the same thing happening on youtube So these you know, there are many people that have a built-in Uh incentive to engage women on women's terms, right? Kevin was probably the only one we saw that could could push back and be critical and still have women calling in every night But for the most part and i'm not saying this is everybody, but you know for a good number of content creators you know, they feel the need to appeal and You know the problem with that is then you got to you got to find a way to sell them what they want If you're willing to have this dialogue, you're trying to have where there's got to be some pushback on either side You know women have a bunch of other channels they can go to where they don't have to get pushed back Right, right. They can be told exactly what they want to hear even though it doesn't result in anything substantive in their lives Feels good to hear You know the same rhetoric that's been sold to them for decades All right You know, so you're gonna go somewhere that's gonna feed you medicine. You're gonna go somewhere that's gonna feed you fast food And and that's what's frustrating especially, you know My my audience is a bit more Half and half than like the majority of the manosphere just because of you know, women being on the thumbnail And and what one of the critiques was we need to see more married couples We need to see this we need to see that and unfortunately when I deliver When I deliver it's still not going back to the theme of this it's still not enough It's still not good enough.  I'm gonna go where, you know, there's some reciprocation You know, even in the animal kingdom, if you're the alpha male, yes, you get to eat first You get to have sex first But when danger comes you're expected to protect the the the pride or the the the community We have the case maybe there's reciprocity But in our community in particular it seems to be the case that it's just what's expected of you And you should be okay with the crumbs you receive And in return Yeah, shut up and serve Yeah Yeah, and and and that's the problem if you're cultivating men who are not going to shut up and serve but are going to have Something to say and it doesn't always have to be negative, you know I mean, but if they're going to have something to say that's a different narrative, you know And it's an interesting contradiction because the depiction of men and women we got especially in the 80s Was that women were told to shut up and serve and and men were these these patriarchs that oppress people But when you get down to the brass tacks, you actually find that actually The men were told to shut up and serve Right, so and and the women could make whatever decisions want this This is why I go back to the grandfather analogy How many of you know your grandfather's first and last name the one who died A few decades ago putting big mama in her and the house she's in Right. Yeah He died serving shut up and serve You know, that's the dynamic that we're starting to point out and a lot of people have issues with it So yeah, you got a road. You got a you got your work cut out for you, you know, because When they say they want more marriages You got to you know deconstruct what that really means and for a lot of people it means we want men To just provide protect More than I do pay for this pay for that And I may give him affection or love if and when I feel like it But he needs to do all of these things to be worthy of my time and attention Right, right dynamic in and of itself is going is it's not gonna work Yeah, the sound sustainable either That's that's the biggest thing because you get to the point like with dion Like how many times is your office going to be broken into or your son's car is going to be broken into before you decide man and then there's no like There's no even corrective action being done afterwards. No, no, I'm sorry No, thank you. No, we appreciate your patience. Nothing Wow Yeah, I mean, you know at some point, you know black men are gonna have to be treated Based on how valuable they actually are and if that's not something you can talk a woman into And it's something that the environment and the conditions of the world will bring about Possibly in other groups of women other arrangements, you know, many of these brothers took a long time Before they start talking about going abroad Hell there's a lot of brothers took a long time before they could even date racially in their own communities and I mean in their own immediate living situation There's a lot of brothers who you know who really because I come out a little I was born in 70s. My father was a panther I came out of a nationalist context You know, there's a lot of brothers that did And it took a long time before some of those brothers would even start talking about dating otherwise But there just comes a point where If you're not going to be respected, you got to go where you're valued And you know and for men, this is crucial because men function and thrive on respect That's we even process love through respect. We're not women. We don't process it through adoration We process it through respect And if that respect isn't there, we'll find it elsewhere Yeah So I've got uh, mr.   How you doing, brother? Oh good brothers. How y'all doing man? Good to see y'all dr. John You too How you doing respect?  Yeah much respect man kudos to you Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. As you always say god bless your life Thank you. Appreciate you. Dr. Johnson. I watch your content as well um, my question for dr. Johnson is and obie as well um, when we're talking about uh, deon sanders, I think um Going back to obie's library of language um Context of nuance I think that And I don't mean it's in a derogatory way. I mean the average joe black guy or black person or black community um Thought about deon in terms of the hbcu if you think about deon and during his playing career um Football a little bit more than baseball, but all of it is entertainment too As a really big entertainment component to it And deon as as much as he was skilled At both sports was an entertainer. He had the gravitas He had the the language He he had the connectivity to our community uh Not just black but white people Or other people I don't know if I should say that or not but um, and so it resonated And I think that um Fast forward to Sorry about my camera fast forward to um him going to the hbcu if you can remember he was trying to be Uh, or at least pursued being a head coach in high school Uh, or at least for a high school team And couldn't get a job Wow high school coach and opened up his own school now. He wasn't the administrator, but he uh He he kind of ran the Ran the athletic department and specifically was the head coach of the football team, which they had Uh, a really good seasons. I think three in a row that they They were close to being undefeated and and and at least in their league one estate title Uh, the same with him applying to a pwi in terms of being a head coach um Because he didn't or at least one of the things was he didn't have the resume To be a head coach at a pwi Jackson state Offered him position to be a head coach of their football team um So as much as we don't think that these exchanges were Um, or at least missed in terms of being reciprocal like um I think that black people and I I'll just use myself for an example Because of that resume in terms of him being a football player slash entertainer He was able to shine a light on because of who he was And i'm glad that obi said something about mo williams being a professional basketball player Did not have the same celebrity did not have the same um entertainment value as deon sams. He didn't have the the household name in terms of Uh Someone you can just recognize just by first name recognition And so when when deon um, and i'm one of the things in the many things that he said because You know, he would use uh social media at least his son orchestrated using social media as an instrument for him to give inspirational speeches For him to advertise Um Because their marketing budget, you know compared to you know, the big five conferences It had no comparison. So one of the examples was When uh, some of the power five schools would play some D two schools or lower d one schools or hbc use And then they were giving them in terms of their budget to come to those 90 to 120 thousand seat stadiums and just take a beating. I mean it'd be a 70 point spread They couldn't cover All of the team's expenses that was traveling So what one of the things deon said he was just he was talking about hbc uses We need to be able to negotiate these deals if we're going to take Those kinds of you know being pummeled that way so that they can get a win At the earlier part of their schedule, which is soft That we need to negotiate in the millions of dollars not just jackson state but all corn state North carolina a and t mississippi valley whatever hbc you it was and his tentacles Didn't just reach into Jackson state it reached across all hbc use now There were there were there were men who who who undergirded Or who were pillars in those in those in those programs who didn't have the gravitas that deon had and so um Even though it was one band one sound there were other people working behind the scenes who had the expertise to um You know elaborate on making those kinds of deals So I think the thing or the expectation was Or the hope was that deon could stay longer permeate throughout the hbcu make it so competitive that that A top tier black athletes at least playing football and maybe even basketball or baseball or running track um That meant that the power fives had to really compete for their talent And if there was um and you and dr. Johnson just did a uh a stream Alive where he was talking about the black renaissance for films If this this movement where guys were were young athletes and their and their families are really thinking about saying you know what Maybe we should send our son Or our daughter who is you know high tier top tier um to an hbcu You know because now they start to be on espn espn plus espn two They're starting to to show these games. So I think that him coming to not just jackson state but being an hbcu umbrella it brought a lot of attention to it and so What does that mean now even though you have like eddie george? or uh, uh, coach jackson down in grand bling or you have mo williams Who's a head back basketball coach at jackson state who don't have who have the expertise But don't have the same gravitas don't have the same connectivity Even though they have pro connections and played sports or coach sports On the highest levels Can actually now Make what deon has done or has brought to jackson state or hbcu's more sustainable And I think it lends itself to what you're talking about right now How in having an honest conversation about Uh relationships and marriage and legacy How can you know You know because I listen to obi show I listen to your show. How can that become? You know at 50,000 you know subscribers plus Become the new benchmark for being this digital library that That people can come to and have an honest conversation and say I don't know what I don't know Um And and it has some autonomy to it because I can just look at it on a video and and and really use it as this research tool And really use it as this reference point to say I never really thought about what black men want And even black men saying I never knew that I could um Make request or I hate to say make demands, but have a standard Where I can be like This is the bare minimum This is this is where I'm coming from so I guess I'm making more of a statement than asking a question is That you know relationships For black men who are going to be with black women. We're going to have to take Again, I hate to you know use language like this is we're going to have to take Some some scratching death And we're going to Have to work with not just ourselves, but the women that we take in you know under our covering and work through some trauma And and be an example to those who we you know if we do have children and and and start creating our legacy can can Breed that out of the you know the the old relationship models We we are going to have to to to At least dip in our bag and say You know take the least damage fruit We're going to have to take some bruised apples Maybe a little bit of discolored watermelon um a smaller orange Um and but that can be just as sweet But it's going to take some You know some some some a labor of love on our part Why I mean my most you know immediate response would be that's actually been what brothers have been doing Yes problem where we're having now is you got especially younger generations of men saying why Why why do I have to keep taking the same fruit my father took my grandfather took When especially there's a market across the street that is marketing the same fruit. That's fresher That's not discolored or bruised at a cheaper price I mean and that's that's a poor example for the point that i'm making because I don't want to reduce people with fruit Right, right. I don't yeah at the end of the day That where is the incentive? What exactly do black men get for making this sacrifice of navigating trauma because understand too And I don't mean this as if you don't understand it. I probably I'm assuming you do Um because black men don't get to your age without understanding it You know that navigating that trauma with her It directly affects our quality of life and our life expectancy We already have the lowest life expectancy. I can pretty much bet you've dealt with that stress in your life before You know what it means to take responsibility for someone who's damaged and trying to work through that trauma I right means when you have somebody that comes to you and says, okay ron I want to be your comfort And I want us to work through this together and you're not going to have to risk your life dealing with my trauma. I want to bring you peace What happens when that happens? So you're looking at trauma on one end You're looking at peace on another and you're of a certain age if I can ask how how do you 54 54 so you've had some projects you've been in some situations Years, you know, you've you've taken those very bumps. You're talking about you go I'm saying I'm not saying which one you're going to choose I'm saying these are the options that many black men are finding themselves, you know grappling with and it's like, well You know, I know what goes down this one road You know, I'm the traumatic road you talked about. I've been there. My father's been there My grandfather's been there. My uncles have been there. My brothers have been who I've seen it, you know But now Is that the only way to go? And I think part of what this is coming down to whether we're talking about deon or whether we're talking about us Is at some point Black men are actually going to have to be treated Based on what they are actually based on their value now We could deal with that in terms of being Progressive and supportive and loving partners who are attentive to children We could deal with it materially in terms of income. I find the income thing helps make the example But I don't I don't mean to say that we're all that all we are is income. All right, let's see this way if you make $43,000 a year. Do you know that you make more than 78 percent of the black community? No, so if the average brother making $43,000 a year makes more than almost 80 percent of the community Should he be valued? Right. Do we think the average brother who makes that is valued? Now we apply that same logic to you know caretaking children to being loving husbands The same logic I think applies in all of these different areas whether they're dealing with internal issues or materialistic issues The problem is in my assessment That black men are not valued for what they actually are And I think deon in the same kind of way like you said he he was he had that it factor He he had the name recognition he there was so much that he could have done Do we think jackson state treated him based on what he brought to the table based on the potential of what we could have built When the man is arguing over whether or not there's 60,000 people in attendance at his game And they're telling him it's 20 something thousand Does that sound like they treated him with the respect that he was due? right I think what he was able to do and I think you're right. No if it unequivocally, no, but I think the The cutting corners and the Bailing wire and and bubblegum of hbcu's the practice of Cutting corners Even when deon came because he did Bring to light in terms of practices in terms of business practices terms financial practices He brought to light that there were some some practices that um Yeah, didn't You know cut the mustard. Yeah, that didn't pass the smell test. Yeah. And so Uh on occasion just an excerpt of what he said was hey look, we have to get our own house in order without calling out names He was talking about best practices weren't best practices and they weren't sustainable And that that needed to be done. That's okay because he he had the levity to to bring that to the forefront And let's have a conversation about he was willing to do that and they understood that as well um And that's the other reason I thought that um For selfish reasons I should have started off by saying that when I started the whole thing That I wanted him to stay at jackson state to kind of air out the dirty laundry in a creative way That um, he could generalize but behind closed doors, you know, um conversations are different with Uh our partners or significant others. Um, there's a public phase and then there's a private phase And so just like you you all elaborated to or or or the conversation went in the direction of The the relationship When they Went their separate ways It wasn't gracious It could have been done in a way that could have gratiated him Gratiated the university and gratiated all hbc us like this is the new hbc year This is how we conduct business and here's, you know, you know our north star again. I'm using obie's language in terms of A dr. Obie's language in terms of, you know, his back and forth. So um It didn't get done that way and I think if they go back and look at Not the game tape of playing but the game tape of business and say, okay, what can we do different? and so, um And I don't going back and forth. I'm on a rabbit trail. That's the same thing with um The black man is fear or the red pill or black man is feel red pill adjacent is When you said what's going to be different because we've been going through this trauma You know my father my grandfather me my great grandfather. What's different? Well now we you know men are You know have this video library of their grievances I think that the barbershop talk which is kind of private. What are the black man social club? It's now on You know, you can stream it. Yeah Um, I can't even have this particular conversation in the barbershop anymore because it's turned into a business Why everything's by appointment? So you don't get the random Guys just coming in waiting an hour hour and a half to get a haircut and then we're talking about Uh, you know issues of the day Now everything is one in one out. Maybe two there. It doesn't have that even that same field So now this is the new this electronic media is the new, you know, black man social club And so I think that is what's different when when when when dr. Johnson And obi you're talking about um the ills in our relationship and here are the remedies that we can use it's You know, the patients in the bed and the medicines working really really slow through the drip But we're we're we're seeing some changes though incremental and small and and and and you know, maybe not so large degrees We can start seeing those changes because even with the passport bros or save yourself black men You know, they're not a lot a lot of guys that's not going to be able to leave So you're going to have to deal with um In terms of the people in our community in terms of like at the end of the day And I think obi said this is like it's it's a political decision You know, it I'm sorry go ahead. I'm sorry Just real quick the interesting thing about what you said though about the people who can afford to leave The problem is we've heard for decades that they're just not enough good black men It's not enough And I think what what what the manager fear helped to explain was it never was about whether or not there was enough There weren't enough top five and 10 percent men Right because when you really broke down what women wanted more often than not whether they even knew it or not They were talking about top five and 10 percent men They refused to look at the men that they were around every day Those five and 10 percent men are the ones who can go overseas and are starting to reflect on whether or not they should And this is what scares people Everybody isn't going to do it. I mean, we probably have I mean the black community is one of the smallest communities in terms of passport Uh, you know, you know obtaining passports, right because of our our wealth status But the ones who can afford to are the ones that are reflecting on it And this is scaring the crap out of a lot of women who understand In order to have a passport in order to do that travel you got to have certain things in your life put together And if those are the men that are leaving now, you got to pay more attention to the ones you were ignoring in the first place That's a whole new dynamic and and that's what's on the table really So I agree with you it was never about the majority of black men going but it was about the class status of the ones who could go Right what that means For women's choices after that Right, you know, whether we like it or not, you know, whether they like it or not Other groups of men are not kicking down doors to not only as as as Alan said be with American women but black American women There's not a lot of groups of men. There are no groups of men Picking down doors to do it the one who the men who want black women are black men I mean, that's that's the dominant group that wants black women But this class stratification is taking on whole new meaning when you talk about passport bros And if it's not if it's not dealt with seriously Yeah, that's right. I have a strong impact class wise You know for quite a while And and my biggest issue with the whole the treatment of the situation is there was an air of um From jackson state and even some some people in our community towards dion.  There was an air of you owe us this Regardless of if we If we dialogue with you as somebody who is bringing all these benefits that we can rattle off and for me I don't think anybody can take that for a long period of time doing all the work And and benefiting the other party in all these ways with none of the appreciation Right. Well, I think that just dealing with people in general Now, I know we're just talking about mainly our community when I say our community I mean black people um It's two things. It's uh, it's a labor of love And it's a lot of heavy lifting it's it's It's the one thing that um in terms of its fluidity That can change by the time you wake up in the morning It may be even faster than that There are things in our lives that you know, I heard this from someone they were talking about children But I guess it can work with adults as well. They were talking about I'll just use it that that the child in Analogy Um, and it's kind of what I was doing when I was trying to rear my children Was there was two schools of thoughts one was That you either a gardener that you may have heard this or you're a woodworker And a woodworker and I'll try to be real quick is um a person who can Control his environment. So you got a wood shop. You got a particular kind of tools. You could control the air flow The materials that you bring in those sorts of things gardener Has to deal with the elements fertilizer Is the crop going to yield the same as it did last year? Can I keep the rabbits out the moles out the deer out? What kind of fencing I use? um hard control um You know the elements And so when we're when we were working with our kids, it was like we were trying to woodwork. We were trying to control the environment We were trying to control the materials. We were trying to control the air flow and they were more like um gardening um One year would be really really good and they would be consistent and there would be some drop-off somewhere because of Their internal changes and then we had to go back and make incremental changes Because they were getting older and their interests became different um And keeping up the guard rails where the weeds growing outside the guard rails Then we had to prune and all this other kind of stuff. So when I what I mean is that the The application we're using to try to take care of something might we might be using the wrong tools And so we're out here trying to woodwork. We're out and we really should be gardening or vice versa and um My expectations for And I was I was listening to dr. Johnson. I got out really long. Well, I'm not really long about a 45 minute drive home from work I'm able to listen to the the podcast and you were talking about your son and the The hesitation and this is not verbatim um Or the resistance to not follow him Uh in a way that he you could make sure that he was protected And that really really resonated with me because I only have one son. I got four daughters. They're older and he's the youngest and I really that really really resonated with me is like Because he's an introvert because his engagement to society is a lot different than Then mine. I'm I'm really a people person. I'm outgoing. My my daughters are outgoing. They're risk takers My son is very conservative He's very much to himself At the time that, you know, trayvon marten Had his life taken from him My son wears a hoodie And for a person who doesn't express himself and he may, you know, in the way that I do and he may have encountered Uh, a police officer or someone of authority. They might thought he was very standoffish Or a very dismissive dismissive of them And so, um I said that to say like my son's engagement to he's 19 Um to females um his preference for Culturally how his his like I said, my my daughters are very spirited people And you're gonna extrapolate from that and their mother is too Which is my ex-wife but He he didn't lean towards black women Because he didn't find um At that age at 19, you know, I guess 17 to 21 or 22 He didn't find them to have the kind of calmness that he needed like when he and I talk we just talking like you and I are talking right now I don't have to yell at him. I don't have to scream at him Um, we can just have a conversation and he can extrapolate from that or he can give he And and so they they were very just spirited talking, you know and and loud and and bolster It's not to be intimidating or mean It's just that this age where where women can be unabashed And their approach to different things And how they're explaining it, you know, how do you get from point a to point b? um And then to have a logical analytical conversation and be like, okay I understand that and not one that's driven on the river of emotion um I think what you're pointing out is that young men who are who are introverted a little quiet Their particular brand of masculinity is not well received in our community Most particularly our women don't value that type of masculinity Right and and those young men are the ones that uh, especially if they end up being successful Who will end up probably finding themselves? Doing some of the things we're talking about here in the hemisphere because it's not lauded. It's not supported It's not seen as as as something worthy of competing for it. It doesn't get them very much attention Yeah, I get it myself right and and and and to your point You know, he has a vision. He has a you know, he has a plan. He has thoughts now They they they may be a little choppy um But for the most part, um, what i'm doing is just stress testing. I'm not saying the plan is good or bad. I'm just Stress testing to see or these things that you've considered And so to your point if masculinity is seen in a particular way as having a lot of bravado And having a lot of you know, um, you know peacocking And he's quiet into the back and He's slowly Ascending past his peers who are more seen You wouldn't know that at his age if you were a female that this guy's got some value This particular person Um has some vision for his age You know, um where people are still trying to find themselves I'm not saying that he's not still trying to figure things out. He he much is trying to figure things out But there is a particular lane that he's in um That lends itself to an upward trajectory at at a faster pace, but it's quiet And um, it's unassuming so These you know, I I'm when I guess, you know, he falls in this 80 of guys. I mean he's still, you know, really young But he falls into this space of young men who That are just not being considered and so, um The sample size that I'm seeing is that he's looking for other alternatives And um He'll find it He'll find it. There's there's there's a way and I'm saying this as an as an introvert Once you find your groove, there's a way to You'd be seductive to be attractive to be all of that and be introverted and be the quietest one in the room The difference though, I tend to find is that it tends to manifest in the in the maturity of the woman in question And so I you know, it's going to be more mature women that can see the value in someone like him And it'll probably include more non traditionally black women You know that that will pay him that kind of attention It is and and they will start to make their way toward him And you know, and he'll find his groove especially if he's he's working at improving him. So It'll it can work. I mean, you don't have to be brazen and peacock and all of that It helps right of attracting the you know the kind of quote unquote typical black woman that we can talk about But you know as they grow and get more mature there are different kinds of women that come into the picture Right, but he'll he'll he'll kind of experience his bloom A little later and some of the more gregarious guys, right, right, and it's and and and my thing is just not You know had given him a I believe say a wider margin of error, but just given him a broader range to have those experiences And it's not in a reckless way um Because he's just not that kind of guy, you know, he doesn't hang out You know, he's he games And and that lends itself to a particular kind of interaction with people um But what I've always tried to get him to do is just interact outside of the electronic lifestyle Is to interface with people not force it but just put him in situations because when we used to go to the barber shop He wouldn't speak to anybody You know, I would always go and speak to all the barbers da da da da It took about a year for him to follow behind me and start dapping guys up Yeah, but you know, but he did it. Yeah, he did it. You modeled it for him. He did it, you know Like I said, he'll find his groove.  You know 50k Yeah, once you find your groove Me and quiet don't have to be any alone, you know Hey ron, I appreciate it man. I wanted you to get to get your last word in You know, so we can go ahead and start wrapping up. No, no, no Hey, look, um, what I would say I really appreciate you brothers, man. Um Keep you know charging forward man. Um, this is Greatly needed man in the most desperate way Um all accolades to you brothers, man. Um And I you know, really really appreciate you man. Uh, like I said, I I usually get to these things kind of late Um, so, you know, when you're looking at those numbers, man, give me give me give me like a 24 hour window, man And I'm gonna hit that like button And then keep my you keep Michael turn, you know, uh things up and contributions up in this that in the third, man But uh, keep doing what y'all doing man. And uh, um I'm just gonna listen man, and I'm gonna stay with the stream until you guys are off, man But I really appreciate it, man, and keep doing what y'all doing Absolutely. Thank you, man. No, thank you. Thank you. All right, brothers. All right All right, dr. Johnson, I want to give you the last word I know you have you have work to do I do have to go but I see there's a couple brothers in the waiting room That um, if you don't mind, I'd like to at least greet them if I can't stay Okay, I'll I'll I'll just bring everybody up at once. Okay. Let me let me do that and we got to go wrench in the building as well Salute salute. But yeah What's good with y'all I was going like What's up, man I could be like you when I grow up. I'll be all right Hey Save man, save Uh, peace to the brothers. I heard them in the back chat. I said man, I got at least greet the brothers They've been been waiting patiently. So good, man. You know, how y'all doing? Good. Wait for that book Just uh, just got the green light from Rutledge Publishing, um, uh last week. So yeah, the book is coming Can I ask a question though like because because I've read uh, dr. Curry's a man's not and Uh, I thought about that for you and I'm just like, you know, that's one of my concerns And I don't know if his situation like if he was tenured Uh, you know before he wrote that book But is that a concern for you that they might make you go to scotland too? Well, yeah, you know, he was tenured, uh, but where he was in texas got got pretty hot And he had threats against his family and when he was interested in going elsewhere There were there were a couple of places that wanted him But they weren't really willing to put, you know, put it on the wood the way they needed to And a lot of places avoided him because of the work he did And he and I would talk about that because I was going through the same thing I would interview at places I get down to the top two And then, you know, I find out I didn't get the position which is fine But then I'd have somebody on the hiring committee, you know, call me under the table and say, hey man Let me tell you what happened. They started looking at your publications. They started calling you these kind of names, blah, blah, blah And I had the same things happening with Journals and different places I was trying to publish So what I decided to do is is the opposite of Tommy Tommy published like he just like crazy I think last I think in 2021 he might have wrote maybe I don't know like 70 pieces. I mean the man is a machine I did the opposite. I stopped publishing and I started doing youtube And you know because when you're an academic and you're trying to work through ideas You publish something and you get feedback from people and that's how you really begin to build your thought process But if you can't get it published nobody will publish it You're just kind of working in this silo by yourself So I came to youtube to develop my ideas to engage people to actually get feedback to go back and forth And then the next thing I knew publishers started calling me Right, so I kind of went the opposite way as Tommy and I'm I'm you know about to start publishing whereas he just started publishing earlier on but Yeah, the the kind of difficulty comes with when you're doing this work and you're not tenured You stand to really you know have to worry about whether or not you have a job I was tenured Tommy was tenured So it wasn't so much a matter of worrying about not having a job. It was more a matter of you know Where you could be I'm still in Fresno. He had to go to Scotland You know Can I give you some free like free marketing advice? I was thinking about you the other day like just because especially when you said You were coming out of a book I would love it if you could possibly do a debate with fd signifier every time I see that Fake-ass academic because he didn't he didn't have no he didn't have the wherewithal or the discipline to get his doctor But he's out here talking a lot of shit about a lot of people who actually put the work in so I would love Making a lot of money doing it. Yeah. Yes. He does and I would love to see if it would be possible I put up like look I'll buy tickets I'll put it right out right out of venue. Yeah Yeah, I would love to see this because I would love to see how his ideas stand up to somebody who isn't You know soaked in by the ghanak the gyneocracy someone will actually push back with data It actually like you know opposing views that he can't simply dismiss as you know nonsensical and you're perfect for that I mean I've last I heard he was supposed to do a show about me He was on jared balls talking shit and I said all right I'll wait for the show and he never did but I think if I remember correctly somebody paid him To to come after the man is fear or something of that nature And once you know, he did what he was paid to do. I think he just went back to it You know, and then he had a guest on and they kind of you know came at Tommy a certain kind of way Um, which I had actually talked to Tommy about and he just laughed he said man This is ridiculous, you know what I mean, but at the end of the day I think you're not going to get a cat like that to argue or debate unless you pay him You know and as far as that's concerned, but I I can really care less man I'm really trying to Focus on you know producing the kind of work that brothers that will help brothers.  We don't hear about them think about them or anything like that So, um in order to do that everybody has a youtube channel There's no reason why no one can make clips And share them from the doc sharing from Alan Shout sharing from bgs sharing from the whole group. We're not doing enough advertising for ourselves And and going back to the original topic of deion I think everybody got it wrong. Th