Hello and welcome everybody. I appreciate it that you're coming coming out for this talk here Given that there are other great talks happening at the same time really happy to see all of you So, yeah, welcome to visualizing network traffic of Bosch releases Subtitle here is where I'm promising in tuition engineering for everyone A few words about myself. Hi. I'm Marco for all of you who don't know me I'm a developer at SAP and I'm the PM of the Bosch open stack CPI there I'm working with Bosch and CF since sometime in 2014. So getting some some good exposure about the whole topic and My my nick is felt more pretty much everywhere. So on github and Twitter Clouds on the slack if you're trying to reach out after the talk, please do Let's start with the boring stuff. Here's a disclaimer what you're about to see So this is in the SAP track, but this is not the product This happened in my 10% time at SAP where we get to play around and tinker with pretty much everything that we think is a good idea or we want to try out and All of this is open source. I have the links in the presentation afterwards. You can try it out But please use at your own risk Right now that the mood is at its peak Let's talk about intuition engineering. So who of you has heard the term before? Not an awful lot of people great. So I Heard that term first in when I encountered a Netflix blog post in 2015 and I felt like this term like Catch my attention because I felt like intuition and engineering aren't those like antonyms Is is this supposed to go together? I like we we proud ourselves to be engineers, right? We are we are measuring stuff. We are based on facts and figures We don't rely on our gut feeling or an intuition. This is what we are proud of so typically that means our Workplace looks similar to this right. We got graphs. We got Measurements we get stuff going on because this is what we use to to to analyze things and All of this is great, right? We we need all of this But I think we often make the mistake thinking that that this is the whole truth. This is all we need this is what we need to to to understand things and intuition engineering starts from there and Has a few simple ideas like first if anything is best represented numerically Then we don't need to visualize it because visualization is for humans I don't need a fancy graph if A machine can do a job for me, right? There is no point in ruining a perfectly good system by adding a human in the loop who looks at graphs and dust stuff so to to start with a quote from that blog post is That anything that we can wrap in alerts or some threshold boundaries should kick off some automated process and Given that We can think about like what do we do with the rest? Right, maybe there are things that are too complicated or it's even impossible to create a heuristic or an alert threshold Maybe we don't know no We don't know enough about it yet. Maybe we don't even know what what it actually is Right, so for all these kind of things we do need a human in the loop And we do want some visualization to be happening and and that's one part of intuition engineering, right? The second thing is this is what we do right? We build measure learn we automate all the things because we are smart people and and we are doing the right thing, right? aren't we and My point here is that automation Reduces the impact of human error for that specific task because I don't have to type manual commands anymore I can rely on a machine doing certain things, but automation does not mean that we don't need to understand Why stuff is happening automatically what? Automation is going to do in a certain situation and I think this is the second point where intuition engineering can help us So here's three points. I'm trying to make in this presentation like first measuring and alerting That's all great, and I think all of us spend lots and lots of time Into that and and we do need it, but it's not enough we do need intuition engineering for two kinds of things first understand our automation better in which cases it behaves like what and second to even like understand or learn about cases that we didn't think about even measuring or alerting about and I'm trying to point out the way how to get there with some tools and some ways to operate And this is what I'm trying to achieve in this talk before we jump right into Actual tooling and how to get there. I want to start with this man His name is Baron seeker. He is a systems engineer at the University of Bielefeld in Germany and His field of research is formal verification of safety critical systems. So that's quite a mouthful In reality, that means he does research and consulting for aviation systems So who of you took the plane to get here most of all I guess so and did you feel safe? Did you feel like the pilot knew what she was doing and like every situation? I Certainly did so. I don't want to ruin your feelings for your flight back. So What what burnt? Did last year is he gave an interesting talk at the at the end of last year at The German like a conference based in Germany the talk is in English and linked here so she so you can actually watch it I highly recommended that's called the role of automation dependency in aviation accidents So the interesting part of that is Whenever something bad happens with an airplane People like him get called to figure out like what it was that led to that accident and what could have been done to prevent that accident from happening and one of the sources that he finds regularly is That pilots heavily trained pilots they have to undergo like Many hours in a simulator many many hours in that specific airplane that they are Piloting in They make the wrong assumptions about automation systems and their behavior in certain situations And this is when bad stuff happens Right and and that talk is quite fascinating on its own So I very naively thought of an autopilot always like it's a press of a button And then the airplane like does its thing and then you land and then that's it turns out it's a Big set of different Features and different automation things one of them is automated thrust control Which makes the the the decision like in an automated way should the airplane be accelerating or breaking? and one of the examples that he is giving is that Automated thrust control is implemented slightly differently in the two big aircraft manufacturers Which is quite interesting if you happen to for example switch from an airbus to a Boeing or vice versa, right? so and Rumor has it and he mentions that in his talk that there was one phrase that every pilot has uttered at least once in his career And that is what's it doing now? Right so when unexpected things happen My point is that you need You need an intuitive understanding to react fast and appropriately I mean those people are dealing with with human lives and most of us are very lucky that our software systems are quite important But not that important So I got two questions for you and those two questions I also asked myself like do I spend as many hours with my distributed system as pilots spend in their airplanes even as preparation and Is my distributed system as thoroughly tested as software in an airplane meaning like formally Verified most likely no and no right, but let's say even if it would be yes and yes My point here is that his research shows that this is not enough bad things happen Because you make the wrong assumptions about how automation behaves in certain cases all right, so how do we get a better understanding of how automation behaves in certain cases and This is the point I'm trying to make here. We need a tool to help us with that So we need to understand our complex system get an intuition about it and we need therefore we need to set up Allowing us to practice practice practice reproduce certain situations and so Netflix Showed in 2015 as a glimpse of a tool. They had internally called flux back then This is two pictures of a blog post taken from them. I'm going to explain in a second What what they are about so in the upper left corner? You see a broad overview like the middle circle represents the internet and The other three circles represent different availability zones where Netflix is installed in and The dots between those things represent traffic So this is from a situation where it happened that one of the availability zones started to fail This is the lower one, right and you see more dots connected to the other two Az's and less dots connected to to the lower one and you see a few dots Flowing like from the lower AZ to the other Az's that means they migrated customers During the failure from the the failing AZ and move them over to the other ones so Imagine you're in that situation. You realize oh one of Amazon's Az's is failing and your expectation is alright We are fine because our automation will act in a certain way It will move all customers from the existing AZ like from the failing AZ to the other two And you can immediately have a look at a qualitative assessment of your network traffic You're not actually interested in how many percent of your customers are still in that AZ and these kind of things You want to have a confirmation that automation behaves in the way that you expect it to behave and In the other picture you can see a drill down and one of the AZ's and see like how the individual Microservices are communicating with each other and you can do like a similar assessment on an like drill down level on that AZ Then last year they finally open sourced it and this was when I thought like I want to have something for boss releases that is somehow comparable to whatever Netflix is having here and this is when I started to to build up the stack I Knew that I needed a network monitoring agent on all of the VMs that I'm installing that is packet beat here I'm using a Bosch add-on so we don't need any modifications to the boss releases. We are trying to monitor We need a database to actually store all the monitoring results. That is some elastic search in this case You also get from elastic a nice tool to query that database if you're interested in more details That is Kibana in this case and of course we have visceral this is a tool you just saw before on the slide from Netflix to visualize it in real time I know showing you like two examples one is a very small one one is a bigger one to See maybe the benefit and how it behaves in the real world so the small example was like Almost the smallest one I could came up with right. I I built a Very basic Bosch release that only provides a single HTTP endpoint Called ping and guess what it does it returns a pop so I installed three nodes of that release and They are pinging each other I'm using Bosch links to connect all of these three nodes So I don't have to deal with individual IP addresses here and I thought well I can Most likely predict what the network graph is going to look like and and this is what I came up with So I got three ping apps here in a triangle They are talking to each other. That's what I designed them to do I got the director that the Bosch director in the middle and all of them are also talking to the Bosch director because They have a Bosch agent on them sending heartbeats to the director regularity Okay, and all of this happens on open stack and we are building the open stack CPI So I knew that all open stack VMs talk to the open stack metadata service in our case. All right sounds fair however When I looked at the actual graph at my first moment of what's it doing now because even in that very small example It looked like this Can you actually see the small lines between them? I hope so Okay, so we got our triangle of of ping apps over there so far so good We got the director in the middle all of them are talking to the director. That's great We got the metadata service in the lower left corner. I also predicted that and then we have Three nodes. I'm not so sure about there is one in the lower right corner and two ones on the in the upper right So that's when I when I started to scratch my head and really tried to look into it in With with Kibana and I thought like okay Let's query for those IP addresses right and see what kind of traffic we have and we have like every 15 minutes We have requests which are fully look like DNS requests So packet beat cannot only record raw TCP flows But also has some knowledge about individual protocols DNS is one of them and as you can see like on the Rightmost column it queries for time hosts something Something something dot SAP so this is our internal NTP server, right? I I remember configuring that that makes sense and I know that the Bosch stem cell actually does every 15 minutes Sync its date using NTP date All right, that's fair. So let's get back to this that means in the lower right corner. That's a DNS server and In the upper right corner this other two NTP servers. All right, okay So that means like even in the most ridiculous example, right? Three nodes just a single HTTP endpoint. I found like a few surprises at least to me To show like not everything's intuitively clear even if you don't have failures like even in the regular operation mode I found a few things that were interesting All right, that's a small thing. We don't care about small things. I Installed CF deployment, which is like the soon-to-be standard way to install CF And it comes like this is an entire cloud found reinstallation, right? It comes with two and for some instances even three AZs. I installed a single application and just curled it and Wanted to see what's happening, but to make it more interesting. Let's add some turbulence So if you don't know the turbulence release done by Dimitri the PM of Bosch, you should totally check it out It's basically Bosch's chaos monkey you can kill individual nodes you can shut down entire AZs you can fill up disks you can block network traffic you can do anything you like and My intention was to shut down an entire availability zone and see what happens, right? I got a few assumptions right when an entire AZ fails. That shouldn't be an issue I can still access my application. I can still work with the API of cloud foundry I can still push I can still ask for the status and eventually Bosch will repair everything, right? It will it will bring it back and all as well afterwards so I did kill an entire AZ and I had my second moment of What's happening now or what's it doing now because I learned that in CF deployment They are using my sequel and my sequel is installed as a Singleton in in AZ one so when I shut down AZ one entirely The answers were I can still access my app. Nope. I can work with the API. Nope Did Bosch bring it back? Yeah, and then it worked Okay, so all right, let's be fair and not shut down actually my sequel But let's pretend in this in in in this case. We're using some kind of cluster DB that RES manages or whatever All right, I'm scared of live demos. So here's a video for you. I recorded it up front Before we start this is what cloud foundry looks like when you record the network traffic It's hard to make sense of all of it, but let's let's try it together So Here is my my jumpbox from which I'm on the on the left corner from which I'm doing the requests I got huge requests going on to the Diego cells And and to the routers and then on the right-hand side That's the cell on the right-hand side the IP address. That's my application. So that makes sense, right? I got a huge flow of of traffic from the jumpbox where I'm using curl to the application There's also lots of other things going on with at CD who's a primary source of communication as well in CF release and a few other things happening so I'm moving the at CD note up there and Then trying to kill a few things All right So here that's turbulence and that's the JSON description of stuff I'm going to shut down and you can see like everything is in Z1 and it's executing a kill task right there So Bosch instances is showing or starting to show a few instances as failing And as we get back to the actual Visorization or hardware You can see a few nodes disappearing And we can probably see a few other things that we Can even see better when we turn on network filtering that we will do in a second API notes still getting lots of traffic. So the curl still works. You can still see network traffic going to my application Right all right Visceral because this is an awful lot of traffic happening has the ability to filter by network traffic Occurrence so to say like you can only filter out the stuff where lots of network traffic is filtering is Happening so let's do that for a second. You can see here two primary sources of traffic One is still routing to my app. The other one is interesting. This is two at CD notes Talking to one IP address there in the in the lower right corner, right? So I was interested very much in that and Was trying to figure out what happened because in the regular mode of operation You don't really see that happening right at CD behaves very nicely and doesn't talk to to any other nodes when you turn back the filtering like back to to Or include more and more TCP TCP flows you can see that other primary sources of network traffic are as expected Doppler so everybody is still logging files and so on So What is it that that at CD was actually doing there? when I fired up Kibana and Did a few queries for the network traffic for that IP address? I realized that this IP address I had seen before like in my in my previous very small example. That's my DNS server so both at CD nodes were firing like 60 DNS requests per second in order to find their third at CD node the one I shut down but Why is my infrastructure DNS server being asked for CF internal domains? Console supposed is supposed to do all of that and and I don't know if you attended Neema's and Adrienne's talk about why getting rid of console is a good idea. I didn't have the time to to look into that That high amount of DNS queries But I imagine that in this case for some reason console doesn't actually give the right answer in time Or even at all and that's why the next DNS server in my resolve conf which is my infrastructure DNS server is queried quite a lot here Fortunately the application was still working and alive So I could still work with it But this is still an interesting thing to happen and depending on what kind of infrastructure you're using how big your installation is and What kind of traffic you're expecting things like this can already be Quite a problem in your infrastructure Okay, so let's get back for a second to my assumptions that I had in the beginning turns out I can still access my app as long as my database is still running same applies for the API Bosch brings it back. It takes quite a long time For the resurrector to bring up the entire easy And all as well afterwards. That's cool. So All right as a summary I tried to show that measuring and alerting alone is not enough to really understand Your complex distributed system and that we need some kind of intuition engineering to really figure out What's going on either in failure cases or even like in regular cases to really understand what's going on Tuning and practice are like the most important things here. So you need some kind of chaos monkey You need to be able to do that in production in order to really learn and get the most out of it and Please rinse repeat rinse repeat do it All right, if you'd like to follow up all of this is on github Feel free to hit me up on Twitter slack or right here at the conference. I'm still around and That is pretty much it PS we are hiring Thanks any questions. We still got time Okay to understand the question I think what you're asking is if I try to Annotate the network links with some more metadata to to to get some more information about that I didn't check it out in detail. So visceral. I mean what we saw as as the visually as the visual Visualization thanks is actually just notes and edges the whole Application allows you to also display like a details panel about I don't know how many Requests were successful. How many of them failed or annotated with any metadata that you feel fit So you can you can of course do this. I didn't do that in detail other questions Is there a performance impact that prevents it from running in production? Sure So there is a performance impact depending on what kind of method you're using for capturing packages and there is a number of them Most of them don't use kernel primitives to record network traffic You can switch if you're installing a kernel module you can switch to Pf ring which is Using for example zero copy to actually Get a copy of the the packages so the overhead is practically zero. However, if you want to use peer freeing for zero copy mode That will cost you a quite amount of money. So in this case what I'm using here It is imposing quite some performance issues or like performance overhead That you need to consider So for us we are going to run this on our performance test landscapes to figure out what the actual overhead like is in terms of throughput and so on and Then make a few decisions So the question is that the reason why I'm seeing the DNS requests is because the application domain needs to be resolved I don't think so so when I looked into the actual DNS requests that happened it was the at CD cluster that tried to find its third node and Apparently its console Not appropriately responding with the right with the right answer or even responding at all So that's why the infrastructure DNS was created for the third at CD node that was actually down I think we got room for one more question. No questions. I'm still around feel free to reach out Thanks again


That's about as well as it got to work so far. Hi everybody. We are at Artificial Life Creation T Plus 2, the multicellular menagerie. The goals for today was somatic cells, stick around. That's what we just saw not really happening. To get the first living computation foundation book published, talk about that, have more big fun. February was pretty busy. There was a lot of successes, but there was a lot of frustrations. I probably didn't stop and enjoy the fun as much as I should have. I have to keep working on that. Okay, so the schedule. Last time Kill Zombies increased code density. It did pretty well with that. Till this time, somatic cells, body cells, we sort of did that. We obviously need what's coming up next, coordinated movement. Somatic cells. Any cell of a living organism other than the reproductive cells. Okay, now that's pretty obvious when you've got trillions of cells like one of us, but when you're down at the level of single cells or small collections, the distinction between reproductive cells and every other cell is not quite so clear, but exactly that's what we were trying to do with the fins on the fish. In natural biology, there are these cell adhesion molecules. I mean, there's been tons of Nobel Prizes awarded for people figuring out how cells interact with each other, intercellular interactions, recognition, communication, and how they exert forces on each other so that they can stay together unlike the fish that we've got so far. And the model that I'm using for that or at least part of it is this intercellular goo, which I said I would talk about this time, last time, and I'm still not going to talk about it a lot, but essentially what it is is the diamonds that we had before that they sort of had this blue edge. And the new ones that you see in the opening video, they have this kind of brown and yellow stuff around it. That's the intercellular goo. And part of its reason for existing is to create a bigger buffer so that we can be aware of other cells rather than just trying to get so far away we can't see them at all because if we can't see them, we can't communicate with them. So we want to be close enough to have some kind of interaction while still having enough room to get away if things start going wrong. So that's the intercellular goo. That's going to have to develop a whole lot more than it has. Oh yeah. And this was something that I made up ages ago when I was having some tweets with with Michael Levin, you know, people tend to focus on the cells, people tend to focus on the neurons. But really the intercellular interactions is so complex and so powerful that this is a little bit about what we're trying to do here. So, okay. And my stream deck is getting unreliable. I'm going to have to buy another one or do something else. Drivers and driving. So, you know, when we talk about distributed systems control and folks like me who are doing the sort of bottom up stuff are very anti centralized top down, fixed control structures and all that and want to have this distributed system control. But nonetheless, it's still going to be the case that, you know, if you want to get something done as a little collective group, there's going to have to be a single decision. And the classic example in the diamonds is growth and movement. If we're going to go east, we have to all go east. So there needs to be some centralized decision, some, some decision held in common. However, that is established. And you know, in the way it actually comes down to it is that, you know, even though it's distributed system control, there is a point of centralization for any given decision point. The real question is, is that central point fixed by the architecture never changes? Or is it more fluid? Can it be here there or whatever? So in the case of the diamonds that we've got the diamond route, the HG Adam right in the center controls growth and movement, which makes sense because it takes signals in from all the edges about, you know, clearances and contacts information from the goo. And it makes a decision and it broadcasts that out to the whole diamond and they all go one way or they get bigger, whatever it is. But once we have that location where control happens, the controller can become the controlled. And that's what this driver is about. So now we've got this new API. I really want to call them appies. I really want to change the pronunciation of API, but another story. A new new API call advise route that the diamond controller does it looks around itself when it's time to make a decision about movement or growth. And it says, is there a controller nearby to advise me? And if the advice route returns false, then we just go ahead and do whatever we were doing before. So I use this diamond controller to make a simple little driver for a diamond. And they are down here. So this is a comparative one. These things are identical until there's a reproduction. You probably won't be able to see it. There's a tiny little red dot here and over here next to the root in the ones on the bottom. That is the controller that's getting the delegated from the route saying you want to do something. And what this controller says, if I am a right daughter, I want to go east. And if I am a left order, I want to go west. So they spread out. And look at this guy, you know, he the being this being is really trucking. Now of course, once we have a left order of a right order and a right order of a left order, they're still pointing at each other. But nonetheless, these guys managed to distribute themselves a lot quicker than the traditional less motivated just sitting there vibing diamonds that we had before. So that's an example of what's going on. And the fins on the fish are using these drivers to try to stay to in the direction that which is where they thought their their mother was. And now of course, there's, you know, there's all kinds of troubles with that not working out. And once again, I can't get back to my slides. All right, there we go. Big science. All right, much of what I spent the time on for the month of February was collecting data for the a life paper for the a live conference coming in June or something that the paper deadline is March, March 13, the final extended no more extensions is six days from now. A lot of writing to do. But you know, if it's going to be a paper at all, we have to do an experiment, we have to gather some data do some kind of case study. So the run on the grid that we actually saw starting last time in February has been going now for almost 28 days, something like that. Close no less than that three weeks anyway, something. And so I wanted to reduce all that data and answer questions like how long do diamonds typically live? How many kids do they have? And so on. And the data to work with is the same data that we've been watching the camera shots of the entire grid.  So I figured, you know, how hard could it be to just recognize the diamonds? They don't have that much variation.  And in the end, I ended up with this thing, which is actually a manual semi automated way of tagging the data.   But you know, I'll just get rid of it because there's nothing there. So all these diamonds down here, I labeled by hand. But we can we can watch the whole thing run. So this thing has now already been. So the idea is I label the births and deaths of where everything starts out, and the tracking tries to keep track of the diamonds as they move. And it does an okay job, you know, but if we can rewind it. And so this is what it looks like. Most of what's going on there is is is tracking that the computer vision that I wrote is doing. You can see in various places, it doesn't track very well. Like this thing keeps getting the wrong size. It turns out that down in Lotus four for whatever reason, things are much more finicky. The diamond tracking keeps losing the grid and flying away, and so on. In any event, I've now gotten 20 days worth of data labeled and produced into spreadsheets and CSV files. So that can start answering the questions about lifetimes and fertility and all of that stuff. So that took a ton of time in refreshing my Python so much so that now that I've gone back to I keep forgetting my declarations and semicolons, you know, thanks Python. Okay, so that's that. And finally, companion at caring. This is this is the book I've been talking about on and off for months and months and months written by my dad. And here it is. You know, we've actually got a couple of copies that have been printed and sent to us. This just came Saturday, I think. And here's my dad there. He died in 2008. He was a philosopher and ethical philosopher. And this was kind of his magnum opus, really. And so I thought, I thought I'd just read a little quote from it. So to get you the idea. Now, of course, folks that are following the T2 projects are not necessarily ethical philosophers. But I think we are a fairly special crowd, actually. So let me do this. This is from the end of chapter two, a section called Ethics as Networking. I already like it. Okay. We are morally estranged from our classical tradition. We no longer share its moral ideals, perfectionism, absolute goods, hierarchically organized society, personality conceived as a struggle between reason and feelings. But this does not mean we are immoral. We have a different set of values. It is not so much that we have rejected traditional values as that they have gradually become irrelevant to our lives, our hopes and our problems. The society in which they originated no longer exists. So that's my dad. And, you know, at the moment, I've got copies printed, but it's not in Amazon, Walmart, Barnes & Noble and so forth. So we can't buy it. And it's super expensive. I'm pricing it at 25 bucks for this little thing. It's not about the price per page. It's about wanting to know some more of the background and maybe being interested in that. And mostly, from my point of view, it's just about having my dad's stuff out there. I'm so proud of him. And so that's it. Next month, April 4th, the A-Life paper will have been submitted long before that, like six days from now. But hopefully we're going to get coordinated movement. Let's see if we can get the fins on the fish to stick to the fish and actually be able to buy a copy, not in physical stores necessarily, but online, and have lots more big fun. And that's it. And thanks so much for dropping in. And I hope to see you in a month.


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Then off the Hogwarts Who had the dubs here Mark k congrats mark tatum selpix disco rubber jones rubber jones introductions disco commingo warriors Three more of these breaks after this everybody Pulling golds are pulling one of ones Poked on have a chalks on the disco duarte pacers variation disco Pacers Silver national pride Suggs rookie magic blue damey lord blazers 75 of 85 Oh, I mean you don't have if you're not including all the color then I wouldn't That makes sense. Wait. No, what? If you're not gonna include the color then I wouldn't a mobley base Yes, you color Chris paul suns all in va nakiel alexander walker feeling green So Seriously mark What was the what was the other one? Lou dort dort your chamber as sam calls him Thunder Marcus morris mobley national pride giddy debut Durant herbert jones springer God rookie purple disco national pride cameron thomas nets two out of 50. There you go nets Plot player currently I'm not sure walt. I think the person may have just emailed rich disco rondo calves scotty barns debut disco for the raptors quentin grimes rookie fast break auto nicks q6 barns base Davion michel national pride I'll call address of wilson. Oh, yeah I was a little while ago a few months ago disco desmond vane for the grizzlies there Cade debut All right, two more boxes here spots coming in now. That's for sure five to go Five to go y'all fast break mosaic The one after that has tend to go now as well Spots are coming in there and then for football later on we have dawn rus and impeccable mixers and then we have 2019 and 2021 contenders mixers some interesting stuff tonight mosaic fast break dawn rus impeccable and contenders contenders Disco ruddy gay rookie disco dosumu bulls Yeah If someone says they're gonna buy however many boxes well usually ritual Have to pay attention to that email silver rookie aldama aldema grizzlies pink disco d wade finalist mvp nice card for the heat here 13 of 20 There we go low numbered flash But that was the same person walt. That's been that used to rip like You know a couple cases super jumbo with us at a time purse for personals Yeah, yes, I think that was last night. They did that We're like early this morning As they had Todd rookie disco wizards Tim hardaway Cade scotty on the base scotty. I missed the rookie disco variation It was this it was uh Oh, that is the most variation. Thank you don't just go killing haze. It has a v up top this year at least Yep In years past you just had to know I would not be It was tough the big names you would recognize you'd be like because you pull so many of them like the other ones you wouldn't Yeah, I would have no idea Darius basely national pride jail and green debut Suggs Yeah, it's a lot of possibilities and mixers. We're due for something big out of 19 contenders. I think You're better off just control f searching. Yeah, I need learn to do that Rudy go bear 30 of 85 for the jazz Bassie Highlanded debut Disco luca mavericks. Come on. We need a big auto now Disco gregg brown the third blazers. This is right here. It is and it is a anthony davis. There you go. Lakers fast break auto good vet hit Lakers Detroit Kade cunningham cam thomas national pride All right, next up. We got kawai Leonard on the uh fast break Hello Jalen green. Yeah, marshal onus I was telling people so you can pull one of ones out of this. I just went ahead and that you can I went ahead and just did it. Yeah, I should have just I was like, you know what skip that Shengyun, that was good. If you don't need anything We'll do All right guys last box next one Where we have the next one Two down to two on the next one just two They've seen the one of ones. They're like, oh One on one. We had a gold as well first first waters were golden then black Yeah, it's a good start Yeah, the next couple are filling up now two seven to go on the one after that as well guys So there's still plenty of spots left for uh fast break mosaic here So again, you get an auto per box a fast break auto per box and then you get a uh rookie photo variation per box And usually what like two numbered cards so far per box. I think we've seen One or two maybe maybe more. I'm sure you can get more So I guarantee though miles bridges another mobility variation. That's the third one in five box for the calves geez man That is that is some kind of luck for the calves Look at shack He's all dapped up right there. Um mosaic yokich nuggets purple pacers rubio three of 50 giddy debut Jack is also in the room with us Herbert jones. I've been mobility national pride Rookie disco charles bassie 76ers tyries haliburton disco or the pacers herbert jones kevin durant I didn't give me a filly player or anything. There's only what 10 of those or 20 of those There's a lot of teams that don't have my moves. There's a few that have more than one So I see Disappointed disco kevin porto jr. Rockets. All right marketing calves disco marketing calves the jazz all star now All right, last few packs. Good luck everybody debut kade cunningham scotty barns bass Blue kawai Leonard spurs this time finals mbp spurs kawai 79 of 85 Warte treyman. These are fast break kembal walker nicks Suggs debut Kyrie Irving all nva for the The nets there. We've got zeke naji nuggets fast break auto. There we go bones highland It was okay, Eric I mean he wasn't going to be part of the fold going forward. I thought they could have probably just held on to him, but A second rounder essentially for pat bebs contract is fine. I guess Ingram disco pelicans If only they would have anticipated they probably could have got more Earlier in the season Montage julius randall cameron thomas national pride and garuba. Give me one sec. We'll do a recap everybody Yeah, that's not a trade. That's gonna make or break the magic, you know Dealing mobamba for a second essentially his minutes were weighed down, especially now that isaac's healthy Here we go with the recap everybody. So variations. We had mobly dosunmu Warte mobly and mobly again. Those are the variations Blue for the spurs kawai Leonard to 85 damien livid blazers go bear jazz pj. Tucker heat paul george clippers pinks to 20 retirees haliburton for the pacers and d weight heat purples to 50 kawai Leonard clippers cameron thomas Nets pacers ricky rubio autos of zeke nazi for denver anthony davis lakers quentin grimes nicks gold rookie auto david duke jr. Nets to 10 and A fast break one-of-one auto serenades marshal onus warriors There we go. That will do it. Thanks everybody another fast break coming up


What's going on guys, welcome back to the channel and I appreciate you being here. Today I want to give you guys my honest opinion on the Prestige Raid. And you guys know me, I won't hold back if needs be. There are questions you guys have asked me, which I will hopefully answer in today's video. And after playing the Raid for the most part, there's a question I still have. Also we will talk about the fact that the guys who got worlds first actually used a glitch and exploit, but we'll talk about that at the end of the video. But before we get into these people, do you want to win some epic loot? If so, stay tuned until the very end to find out how. Also it's important to mention that any bashing I do from here on forward is out of love for the game and franchise. Most people assume if you bash something you should just move on and play different games, but it isn't quite as easy as that when you spend years playing a franchise. Also people think either you get paid by Bungie to promote or hype their game, or you are either a hater for pointing out the flaws in the game. Well I don't get paid by Bungie although I wish I did and I certainly do not hate the game or nor do I hate Bungie. They have done many many things which have changed my life for the better. I just want to see this game become the game we all wanted to be prior to the release of it and that is that. The thing is this game is great in many many aspects up until you reach that top level of a 3 or 5. What actually happens then? You literally have zero things to play for. So let's talk about the first stage raid. Why is actually the point of this thing? Is there any point to it? Well okay, so the changes to this raid, what's actually different? Well not much to be honest, besides a few mechanics. The dogs have an extra spawn into their area which you will have to take out and the dogs circulate a different path to what they did in that normal mode. The gauntlets here things can be a little difficult as you can't have two set runners for all three rounds.   The bathing part, this can be done as normal up until you get to the centre where you have to shoot those glass bars if thingy thingy is hanging from the ceiling. After this each person will see a different cymbal.  Some callus, you do this as normal until the other round comes into play where people call out the cymbals. The guy outside who kills, the side on whose cymbal is not cooled out will then be teleported randomly with one person inside the round. And that person inside the round will be teleported out and then you continue on and that is about it. I mean yes some of these mechanics are really good mechanics and definitely challenging but even when you complete the raid what do you get? The armor you get is just re-skinned normal raid armor with a few glowy bits and it's a different colour and that's about it people. So let's compare the good to the bad. Good, the raid is definitely a challenge for the most part. Ads hit harder, they take more damage and the mechanics are great. Definitely offers more of a challenge for sure and if that's what you seek then yes the raid is amazing and the best thing in Destiny 2 for a challenge. But if the hard mode challenge is not what you play for and you want that epic high level end game loot will it kind of disappoints? All you get from this is that standard raid armor with little changes. There isn't even a slight increase to power which in my opinion Bungie missed out on. Adding even an extra 5 power to your level which would only be obtainable from this raid would have been something worth playing it for. But nope, armor level is the exact same as what you can get from Blues nowadays and as far as I know no weapons have changed at all. So this raid in all honesty for me offers nothing worth playing it for besides a challenge. And although I do say challenge, Worlds first did it in an hour. Obviously wasn't a challenge for them. Bungie in my opinion missed out on a major opportunity for the game with this prestige raid. When in fact all they have given us is basically a reskin raid with reskin rewards which is a true shame in my opinion. Chasing a higher level and being that top level is the main thing many many people play for. Most are already that top level so in reality this raid offers nothing for their progression as a guardian. Which I'm guessing we will get in future DLC which just shouldn't be the case. So in my opinion this raid is a complete waste of time for me anyway. Nothing to be gained from doing it which I believe is definitely a first for Destiny when it comes to hard mode versions of their raids. So yeah, a big disappointment in my opinion. So onto Worlds first. Worlds first completing a raid where a team called Redeem. They did it in a little over an hour which is incredible in my opinion. Thing is and there's been an uproar about it, they used an exploit to do this. You guys know the dubious body war cliff glitch where you can literally feel any heavy you have by simply switching from the war cliff. As long as it's got one shot left in it to any other heavy and it will completely fill that heavies ammo clip and reserves. They actually used this at Kallus with Bungie I believe watching them do it and were still crowned Worlds first. Now to me ain't an issue and to be honest they were robbed out of Worlds first in the past which was something out of their hands. And to be honest the exploit is still in the game and hasn't been removed by Bungie and that isn't their fault either. Yes they had a choice to use the exploit and they took that choice. To me I honestly do not care chasing Worlds first is something I couldn't care less about. I played the game for fun and that's about it. But how do you feel about them basically using this exploit to get Worlds first? Do you think this should be stripped of it? Let me know down below at the end of the day they need to have a choice to use this exploit or not. They took that choice and used it and were still crowned Worlds first. Can blame Bungie though for the most part as they left this exploit in the game. But they did say in a recent update that they've got a sort of system in place which can track whether you do it legitimately or not. Obviously referring to the no ads Kallus glitch as that's still in the game also. But at the end of the day it's all done now and they've been crowned Worlds first. But like I said let me know how you feel about this down below within that comments section. And on that note guys I am out. Remember if you want to win some epic loot support my channel by dropping a like on this video and joining my discord server links within the video description. But guys I hope you enjoyed the video tell me down below what you think about this prestige raid tell me what you think about redeem crowned Worlds first and I hope you guys enjoy the rest of the day and I will catch you on my next video.


Welcome back everyone. Our main item of business this morning is the second in a series of evidence sessions looking at the impact of climate and nature emergencies on our remit. Today we'll be focusing on innovation and new approaches to environmental challenges within the rural economy. Welcome to our meeting, our first panel. I thank you for your patience who will be discussing the terrestrial environment. With us this morning we have Michael Clark, the Scotland Chair of Nature-Friendly Farming Networks, David Finlay, owner of the Ethical Dairy, Dee Ward, the chairman of Wildlife States Scotland, and replacing Rebecca Odsley, we now have Andrew Bauer, the head of food and food and footprints. The session is going to take a slightly different form this morning, so I would like to invite Michael Clark to make a brief opening statement setting out some of the background about his innovative project, followed by David, Dee, and then Andrew. Thank you. Good morning, Michael. Good morning, convener. Can I just check if you can hear me? Absolutely. Thank you very much for the invitation. I'm delighted to be here. Good morning all to the committee. We were born less than four years ago and we are a network, a steadily increasing network, a spider's web perhaps of farmers and crofters, the length and breadth of Scotland, big, small, male, female, conventional, organic, covering all sectors of farming. We know that working with nature works for us in our businesses as food producers, as part of the Scottish food system, and we know that working with nature delivers for biodiversity and for climate change. Our mission, as well as running our businesses on a day-to-day basis, is to try to change the mindset of more Scottish farmers and crofters, to get them to rethink the way they farm and to give them the confidence, we hope, to come with us on our journey, our transition to a more sustainable future for Scottish farming, a more sustainable way of farming and a way that delivers for biodiversity and for climate change. We're very grateful for the chance to talk to you this morning to tell you our story, and I take this opportunity to invite you individually or as a committee to any of our 275 farm and crofting members across Scotland who would be delighted to show you how it works for them as a business, and that's a number that has doubled since the Covid restrictions began. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you very much. Before we move on to David, I've got to declare an interest of being a neighbour of David and had the pleasure of farming on very, very similar type of ground in Borg, so I've often felt his pain. David, would you like to make an opening statement? Good morning, everybody. My background is that I'm a fifth-generation tenant, cheese-making dairy farmer in south west Scotland, with 125 dairy cows and all the young stock from that to finishing our breeding and 250 breeding use. We farm 850 acres of LFA, pretty rough stuff. 500 acres of that will be moderate quality permanent pasture, 150 acres will be rough grazing and grub and 100 acres of mixed broadleaf trees, most of which we've planted in the last 25 years. I spent 10 years in the forerunner of SRUC acting as an intermediary between scientists and the farmers for 10 years and then came home and started intensifying the farm. I've got a dissolution with that. We started our transition to organic, ecological and regenerative farming, as it's called nowadays. It's been quite an interesting journey. It's brought us into contact with fellow travellers who are farmers, vets and research people, all sharing our experiences and crossing many industry red lines and finding that many of them were myths. We've thrown away the old text book. We're now writing our own text books, which instead of spending our time and money on what now seems to be damaging technologies, fertilisers, pesticides, antibiotics, etc. We're now investing in our soils, our crops and in our livestock and in the environment and in the people who are working here. We've been trying to follow best practice over the years and we're now moving, we feel confident, towards a resilient, rewarding, environmentally friendly net zero. We actually have 25 years of soil carbon data, which shows that we are sequestering more carbon in our soils than we emit from the farm. We're also resource efficient and profitable. The most profitable years in dairy farming were after we got 10 years into organics and it was primarily because we had driven out cost out of the system. We've now moved into cow with calf, as you probably know, which has been challenging but we're now in a position where we're in our sixth year and within five years we will be back to the level of profitability that we had before. That's pretty well where we are and where we've got to. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Good morning everyone. My name's Dee Ward. I'm chairman of Wildlife Estates Scotland. I also own an upland estate in the Angus Glen called Rottle and that is Wildlife Estates accredited. Wildlife Estates is known as WES for short, just so if I mentioned that later on, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's passed for European-wide label. Wildlife Estates are independently assessed land holdings accredited for wildlife and biodiversity. Scotland has the second highest area of accredited land in Europe after Spain, which currently sits at 1.3 million acres. We have another half a million acres in the pipeline going through the accreditation process. We have a target to reach 2.5 million hectares by the end of 2023. Funded primarily by Scottish Land and Estates with initial funding, generous funding from Nature Scott and on-going support from Nature Scott. Most land holdings are commercially motivated, ie they need to make a profit, we all do, but they want to improve and they want to maintain habitats. Lots have been doing good work for many, many years and they see Wildlife Estates as a way for land managers to confirm by independent assessment that they're doing a good job. There are no incentives currently by the bragging rights of saying that you've got wildlife accredited estate, but there are hopes that we're working on this trusted operator status which and other benefits like maybe easier access into EECs in the future or other grounds. The accreditation process though is very onerous. It takes a lot of work, a lot of data required and often because there aren't the incentives there, though people want to do it, it goes to the bottom of their pile of stuff to do. I think the wider benefits of Wes as I see it, collecting this data is really important for knowing what we have, for driving management improvements, to make better informed decisions about wildlife and biodiversity, deliver biodiversity net gain and to deliver sustainable farming. Other commercial drivers for the future opportunities to mainstream are things like the carbon markets, peatland restoration, woodland creation etc, natural capital baseline and measuring improvements. I know that they're talking in England about these baselight net biodiversity gain units etc. Opportunities with things like flood mitigation and water quality through riparian planting and peatland restoration and there's obviously the new cap coming down the line which you know with this talk of public money for public good. There's potential to encourage good practice and people aligning themselves with doing the right thing in terms of net biodiversity gain etc. Wes is well positioned to scale dramatically and deliver huge environmental benefits in my opinion and also biodiversity net gain but some sort of tangible benefits or privileges as mentioned would really speed up this process substantially. Thank you very much. Thank you Dee. I'm going to introduce you properly. It's Andrew Bower, the head of food and footprint at the Scottish Agricultural Colleges Consulting. So, with your proper title, Andrew, could you give us your introduction please? Thank you very much. It's a bit of a mouthful. Yes, my colleague Rebecca sends her apologies. Something came up in the last minute. So I'll run through Rebecca's opening statement. It's primarily concerned with farming for better climate, which has been, since it was first established in 2011, probably one of the more high-profile knowledge exchange efforts funded by the Scottish Government to engage farmers well ahead of a lot of other initiatives on the subject of net zero. It's run in various iterations through to 2018 with a very strong focus on climate change absolutely. After 2018, the focus switched more to regenerative agriculture and I'll come on to that in a minute. The idea was to have focus farms, hubs around the country where farmers could come together who had an interest or who simply were intrigued by what was being discussed there and they drew these 13 focus farms that were established, drew people from far and wide, they were all over the country, all different types of farms. It wasn't just about discussion, but that was an important part of it. It was also about trials and demonstrations and in the end over 5,000 farmers and crofters engaged face to face at these events. There was also a suite of resources on the website, social media and outreach through local and national press. In the year since 2018, the focus has shifted to regenerative agriculture and that has been very popular. I think that it came along just at the right time to complement a lot of the others who have already spoken in their efforts. There are five regenerative agriculture focus farms around the country. They are looking at everything from cover cropping to soil health, to adding livestock and arable systems and minimising damage from potatoes, pillage, reduced and minimum pillage and crop diversification and foliar feeds. A really practical focus there was both farming for better climate and subsequently the regenerative agriculture network has really been about practical innovation on farm and exploring the bounds of what is possible in a Scottish context. Again, Rebekah has asked me to extend an invite to the committee if anyone would like to visit any of those regenerative agriculture focus farms, then she is very happy to facilitate that. Thank you very much. We will certainly consider the invitations that will be nice to get out and about again, and that is certainly something that the committee intends to do. We have now got opportunities for questions up until about 11 o'clock. I will kick off and I will ask a very broad question, but I would like to consider how your projects or schemes are going to contribute to solutions to address the climate and nature of emergency that we are facing right now. How scalable are your projects or initiatives and what would be needed to mainstream your identified solutions and what barriers stand in the way? I am going to ask that first to Michael Clark. Thank you, convener. Our network has grown beyond our expectations by working at the mindset and giving farmers to get the confidence to start on this journey. I think that several of our speakers have talked about a journey. I know that David and Andrew did nothing. We are having a confidence to begin today because inaction is the biggest threat to not meeting our targets, to not being able to become nature positive and reach carbon net zero. Doing something, making a difference today and what we can do through the network is, as I said, it is like a spider's web. It is immensely scalable with support and that would be in terms of giving us this opportunity and supporting policies from the Scottish Government that support wildlife-friendly farming, that support climate friendly farming and that support nature-based solutions as much as technological solutions. We feel that our members feel that we pretty much got most of the technological solutions that we need. If we are just helped with things like establishing the baseline, so carbon audit, so I think that is already on the agenda, we need to know where we are for starters, then focusing on soil health, soil tests, that sort of thing. That tells us the direction to take and then helping with knowledge transfer. Andrew mentioned the knowledge exchange, we call it KTIF. Don't we knowledge transfer innovation fund these days? A bigger pot for that would be enormously helpful for us because I think that we feel that a lot of the responsibility has to be on farmers, we think, and crofters. We think that our role as farmers and crofters and our farm is not that far from you. I am in East Dumfrieshire but we have a responsibility to steward the assets under our management. We need to produce food responsibly and to do it in a sustainable way. Responsibly on farmers with help from you please in the public sector, collaborative private public partnership, but we know that there is a wall of money out there in the private sector. It is a tsunami almost of money that wants to come to help us. If we put our heads together, you as the policy makers and us as the people who can deliver that kind of thing on the ground through the likes of the network, we can encourage and get some of that money to come through. Thank you. Can I move on to Dee Ward? Thank you, convener. Can you all hear me, sorry? Yes. Michael Clark's comments are very, very good and actually very similar comments. I think from a wildlife estates point of view, one of the challenges we face is I use a comparison with the IACS form. If you don't get your IACS form filled in in time, you don't get your subsidy. Wildlife estates currently, we're relying on people's goodwill, they want to do it, but it often goes to the bottom of the pile, so people don't do the work necessarily and there's no deadline to do it by when they do it, they do it sort of thing. Funding is important. I think the private sector funding opening that up is important. We talked about this trusted operator status. I think having some benefits to do it. If you're seen as a trusted operator, from a NatureScot point of view, there's a sort of light touch management.  I think things like that would be very beneficial and there are a lot of people keen to do that to become wildlife estates accredited, but because there isn't direct incentives, it tends to go to the bottom of the pile. I think if we could change that, it would go to the top of the pile and a lot more people would come on board. Thank you. David, the ethical data area is often referred to in the Scottish Parliament. It's well quoted in the work that you do, but how scalable is your project? It's good to hear that the business is now profitable and you're looking forward to a positive future, but what is needed to mainstream your type of venture and what barriers stand in the way of your type of venture coming up quickly and addressing what is an emergency? We don't have 25 years to transform or become organic. What do we need to make your project a mainstream solution? I wouldn't expect everybody or anybody, particularly to follow exactly what we are doing, but we are in an emergency situation and we've seen Covid and how we've dealt with that and thrown billions at it. It's been very damaging to the economy and to the country. We're going to have to face up to the fact that, if this is an emergency, we're going to have to invest a lot of money in getting it sorted. The people who can sort it are the land managers, so there's no doubt about it. We can be part of the solution. I'm a bit more hard-nosed. I agree with Dian and Michael that there has to be government involvement and the government has to take the lead here very much. I know that money is a problem. I'm pretty hard-nosed. I would say that what we need to do is to create an incentive. We need to create a market. The market, the incentive from the market at this point in time, is really not there. It's moving far too slowly. If it was up to me, if I was king for a day or whatever, I would be taking gradually transitioning the rural payments budget, supported by some other budget as well in terms of health and what have you. I would be transitioning at least 50 per cent of that over a 10-year period into supporting public sector procurement. We should be feeding our children and our old people and sick people. We should be giving them the best food and they should be giving food that's been produced ecologically, socially and soundly. That would create a market. It would also give a lead to the private sector, as Michael said already. There is a huge amount of money out there in the private sector, but the private sector won't move fast enough until the demand is there from the public. Once the public sector sets the standard that food should be produced in terms of environment, social and welfare conditions, the private sector will follow suit very quickly, I would say. If farmers don't want to change fine, they can fend for themselves or get out, and they should be incentivised to get out and bring in new blood. We need new blood in this industry, but we've got too much old thinking. I would put a lot of money into a get-out scheme. I know that there's one down south that started up. We've got to be very careful. We're not just getting the next generation coming along with the same old ideas, we've got to get new blood and new ideas. Does that answer the question? Thank you, David. That certainly resulted in a flurry of hands being raised for the supplementaries. I'm going to go to Jim Fairlie, followed by Rachel Hamilton. Thank you, convener. I'm loving this conversation already. David, I think that you and I should sit down over quite a number of pints and have lots of blethers. The idea that you just spoke about there is one that I took to Rossfinnet almost 20 years ago, and it was poo-pooed then, so we'll see where it goes from here. Indeed, I also have a register of interest with yourself, because I actually bought a blackface tupper off your shepherd many years ago as well. The first thing is that we talk about regenerative farming, but as a new entrant into farming when I went into it, I wasn't bound by the same constraints of how it's been done. I did things that were what I thought was right, and I always had the environment because I got involved in farming because I wanted to be out in the countryside and I loved nature. I did things in farming that I was growing clover 30 years ago, and it's now been talked about as this great new product. It's not, it's been there forever. How out of touch are the farming industry with nature-friendly farming? I don't know who's best to answer that. Maybe Andrew, I'll go to you first on that one. Sorry. Yes. No, I think you've definitely hit on something there. There are the people who are already on the journey, and there are those who believe that they don't need to start the journey yet because the language that they hear is insufficiently clear, and sometimes it's insufficiently challenging, or it's too challenging in an unconstructive way. I pick, for example, something like soil carbon. We hear a lot of farmers saying, I'm an upwind farmer or I'm in this particular situation, I know that once you understand the carbon sequester in my soils, I'm going to be net zero. If they're not actually saying to us I'm already net zero, we have a farm carbon calculator called Agricalc that is increasingly looking at soil carbon. I'm not about to say it's the final word on the subject, but we're seeing a lot of farms that we're looking at that you're looking at around the mid-teens to mid-twenties of the percent of the emissions on that farm being offset by what's in the soil. We need to move the discussion on with a lot of stakeholders and say you're serving nobody's interests well here by saying we just need to wait until that particular bit of evidence and then everything's going to be fine. But I think that we've got a final language to talk to farms about that doesn't overwhelm them, because we certainly paralysis due to conflicting messages is equally a threat to action. But I do believe that we're too busy talking to one another in an echo chamber sometimes and not actually welcoming in more innovative and challenging viewpoints. We really need that. And Michael, could you address that same point? Born a kind of farm as a boy and never thought for a minute I'd be able to afford a farm. So ending up here is we're living the dream here. I'm not sure always it's a dream, but it's maybe sometimes a nightmare. So your question was really how are to touch of the industry from major friendly farming? Well, I think it's this mindset thing that we're trying to address. A lot of the industry, it seems to us, is focused on the top line of their business, the yield. Let's see how much we can get out of the resources we've got through using quick fixes like nitrogen in a bag and see how many cuts of silage, for example, we can get from our fields by putting on more and more bag, more and more inorganic nitrogen, that sort of approach. What we're trying to, the message we're trying to get across is have a look at the bottom line, have a look at the profitability, have a look at the maximum sustainable output. By cutting back on your inorganic fertilisers by putting clover, as you say, in the mix it's absolutely nothing new that that is there. But I think the industry slightly forgotten it. Not really the industry's fault. We were encouraged by the likes of Aberystwyth and all these places to put in these high yielding Italian ryegrass mixes, focusing on the top line. If you put in clover, if you put in chicory, if you put in plantain, as we know, more and more farmers are doing across Scotland. If you try and outwinter your cows for longer, if you try and really cut your inputs, really it's the lowest cost producer that's going to win out here as we go through this period of immense uncertainty and the need to get us focused on nature positive and keeping temperature rise below 1.5. Then we think that we know the networks in a very good position to scale this kind of mindset change by demonstrating that it works on our farms in crofts. I'm very interested to ask about the private funding coming into farming for carbon sequestration. I'm really interested to hear how you would see that working because I know it's one of the things that people are up in arms about is the fact that big companies are coming in buying up huge sways of land and then saying that my company is now green because I own an estate in Scotland. So where do you see the private money coming in and how do you hold it here? I think that's a very, very good point. One of the things that we want to avoid is that if businesses come in that they're not only helping us improve what we do and help net biodiversity gain, they're actually, before they do that, are reducing their own carbon footprint rather than just offsetting, which I think is the wrong solution. I think there are huge potential for carbon markets and what it does is it brings private money in and it ultimately, if it's taken to its ultimate conclusion, would mean you wouldn't require any farm subsidy from the government and government could spend that money in other places because there's so much private money coming in. To me, there's two parts of it. We want to stop and reduce carbon, but the other thing is we want to deliver net biodiversity gain. I think this is where the whole natural capital comes in because if there's a value on natural capital, we need to force people by a mechanism, and I don't know what that mechanism is, come in and put money into land and farms, not by land but to help the operators of that land by putting money into the natural capital and valuing the natural capital. The money that goes in is delivering a natural capital benefit. I think that valuing anything and valuing natural capital—unfortunately, we haven't valued natural capital for ever, really, since the war. People see it as a value and they will respect it and value it more. I think that this is a key driver. How do we get there? I don't know, because if you're not careful, the private sector take over and get greedy and jump in, so there needs to be some sort of a mechanism to say, yes, you can do that, but you have to do this at the same time. I'm sorry, that probably wasn't a very good answer, but I'm not sure how to do it, but I do think that we need to be wary of it, but there is a potential there if we can get it right. Andrew Whittle would like to come in at this point. We are involved, I'll declare an interest here at SSE Consulting, as a forestry team, and that team is involved in working with land managers to sell the carbon in new planting. Our focus is mainly on integrated planting on farms, crops and the states, rather than on the larger end of the scale, but we are involved in some projects like that. I think that it's important to disentangle the headlines from the reality on the ground. Most of the carbon sales that we do are for smaller projects, and I think that the companies that we are dealing with, who are, I suppose, a further intermediary in the step, are aware of the importance of having a range of products. We know that there are products coming onto the market where the farmer retains some of the carbon and sells some of the carbon later on down the line so that they have something that should the Government policy or their supply chain make demands on them later on down the line. It's always the case where something looks like a cold rush, that there are risks involved, but we need to be careful not to give one or two examples and assume that that represents everything that's going on. There is a diversity of activity and, in some cases, it is the carbon sale that is enabling woodland planting to happen. Not so much in the central belt where there is a grant uplift, but when you move further north, quite often for us now, it's the carbon that makes it viable. Thank you. David Finlay would like to come in at this point and then I'll move to Rachel Hamilton. Thanks, Finlay. We are sequestering five tonnes per hectare per year, and we are emitting four and a half tonnes per hectare per year according to AgriCalc. If I sell that five tonnes of carbon credit, I'm no longer net zero. I don't understand how the industry can sell its carbon credits without becoming carbon positive. We can't all win from this carbon credit thing, where somebody is going to have to lose. I don't see how you can square that circle. Thank you. Thanks, David. That was useful. Rachel. Can I start with Dee, please? Dee, there are two questions I'd like to ask you. Can you tell us a little bit about your integrated land management that you do alongside peatland restoration and moorland management and grouse shooting? The second point is that you mentioned the aches scheme. I've spoken to a lot of farmers who've had difficulties accessing the aches schemes because of the narrow scope of those schemes and also the reduction in the budget from the Scottish Government between 1718 and 2021. Can you talk us through those two points, please? Yeah, absolutely. Starting with what we do, I have, just so everyone is aware, we have an eight or 3,000 hectare, 8,000 acre estate, probably six and a half thousand acres of it is moorland, but on that we're doing peatland restoration, we sheep farm, we have stalking and grouse shooting, we have hydroelectric, so we're using a lot of the same land for multiple purposes and also further down, so if you can imagine taking the estate in three sections, we've got the top, which is the grouse moor, we've got a middle band where we're doing a lot of riparian planting and contour planting of native species, which is to help flood mitigation and also for wildlife and biodiversity, and then at the bottom we have fields where we canoeba winter sheep and so on and we've remeandered the rottle burn and we work with the fishery board and stuff like that, so there's a lot of overlay of benefits where I think different people, for example, we work with the fishery board, Angus Council, we've all, you know, Angus Council are talking to us about flood mitigation and improvements to the river further down and so on, so there's a lot of crossover and I think there's a lot of collaboration that goes on and I think this is to be encouraged, so that's sort of what we do and taking up some of the other points that were made, we're very much working on growing all we need on site so we don't away winter anything, we just grow things like turnips that we've improved our grass and reducing deer numbers has made a massive difference to the amount of grass we have available over the winter, the trees we're planting have a lot of grass underneath them and actually running the sheep through as they get bigger, they do a good job because they reduce some of the grass and actually when the trees get very thick, they're quite good, especially the natural region, they're quite good at sort of breaking it apart a bit which is quite good for natural processes and then we have things like highland cattle on the low ground that just trample around in the marshy, rushy ground, break that up and since we've been doing that we've noticed a huge amount more over winter, well waders like snipe which will over winter with us and in the summer we get a lot of visitors like curlews and that wing and so on so it's been really beneficial, it all seems to work together and I think one of the problems that we've had is since the war we've been focused on food production and then things like fertilisers have been invented and we've forgotten how to farm naturally which we did 100 years ago, a couple hundred years ago and I think everyone on this call is slowly learning to do that again and I think that holds the key for us to live sustainably. Moving on to EECS, yes EECS it was disappointing last year, there was a little budget for EECS but it was very specific, I think this year there has been declared a bigger budget but the point I'd make on EECS is people once they're in EECS they stay in EECS so if you use a five-year term you tend to renew it until another five years and another five years and actually that money is incredibly valuable to be able to farm in a nature friendly way so I think money spent on EECS, I mentioned it in my initial opening for wildlife estates members, one thing that would be good if you were for example trying to scale wildlife estates is if you could get into EECS schemes a lot easier and there was money available to do these but you know nature benefits or nature-based solutions I think a lot of people would be a lot more people would become wildlife estates accredited and I think EECS is a fantastic scheme and I just wish it had a lot more money behind it basically. Thank you and can I move to David and Andrew and Michael might want to come in on this as well it's really David I just want to say my father is an organic dairy farmer so I've got a register of interest here with a family member but he complains to me a lot that the price for organic milk is moving very much towards the price for conventional milk now my question really is is that if we are to ensure that people especially in urban areas have access to high quality nutritious food and farmers are being asked to do more to meet net zero particularly that will cost money how can we ensure that the price that we get is relative to the costs associated with the productivity? Well at the end of the day it's driven by the market and market demand and I think perhaps point a finger again at government and say well you know we haven't educated our population to understand the benefits of organic in terms of not just in terms of the the environmental impact and animal welfare impact but also health in so far as some chemical residues antibiotics fertilisers in our food and water supplies so you know the public don't understand that there is a wide benefit a holistic benefit of our from coming from organic farming or from ecological farming or from regenerative farming even therefore we we are not prepared to to pay the extra price and that then comes back to if good quality high welfare environmentally friendly food was being provided to the public through the public sector which would incentivise the private sector to follow suit that would create the demand but it's a demand situation. It also links back to the previous question about connection with of agriculture with the environment how well we understand it and the problem stems back to I mean you know as a child I was sent out with a tray of eggs with strict need in them to lay eggs out on the farm to kill wildlife and you know you've got sixpins for it it was a wee while ago and that was the mindset and the mindset hasn't changed greatly since then and so there is there is a huge disconnect both at the early stages of learning on the farm but also through our education system our education system does not support environment the friendly production so we've got a whole industry which is at odds with the these environmental welfare issues and so sorry I've strayed a little bit from your question but we have a we have a whole cultural disconnect that requires leadership from government I would say because no one else is going to do it off their own back to re-educate the we've lost David just now so while we're getting David back can I move on to Alasdair with his questions questions for David to be honest so okay I'll come in if he comes back have we lost everybody okay can we just we'll just suspend this meeting


He knows Uranium and Gold. He's the CEO of Gold Mining and UEC, Amir Anani. Always good catching up with you. On our two favorite yellow metals, right? On our two favorite yellow metals, I know you've been very busy summer. Two new acquisitions since we last spoke in March at the PDAC. Let's talk about the state of mining. We're at a mining conference here. Does it look healthy to you? Well, I mean, first of all, we're definitely, in my opinion, not seeing a big rush by generalist investors coming and showing up at this conference and wanting to write checks and, you know, that doesn't exist. And so we have, at this conference that you and I are at right now, a great attendance, great turnout. But frankly, it's many of the same companies. The majors are here, which is a great indication of their interests to want to see what the juniors are up to. But a lot of the mining-focused investors are here. I think that speaks to the fact that sentiment hasn't yet recovered to the point of this being anywhere near a bull market for equities. And when that happens, we're going to see generalists. We're going to see a much broader participation from the investment community at a conference like this. Until that happens, I think we'll just have to see how things played out. And maybe there's that lack of conviction that this is the beginning of a major bull running gold. So you think we saw the bottom this year? Perhaps. I mean, obviously, I believe it's been difficult to read gold because I'm also one of those people who, I think, went on an interview with you and said, if Trump wins, we're going to see a rally in gold. And I'm sure many other people made that call. And so you put that in perspective and say, to some extent, I just continue to look at the fact that you've got the stock market at all time high and everything is priced to perfection. And there are so many issues in the US, in the world, and many variables could play out that puts the Fed and puts the government in a very difficult position. They've backed themselves in a very difficult position. And from here on, I think it's silly for someone not to be exposed and have insurance for gold. But does the preference for risk on assets, though? Well, it is, but to some extent. And if tax reforms, if the debt ceiling in December, so many different key developments in the next three or four months don't work out to perfection, then it's going to be very difficult to sustain the kind of equity market rally that we've had, in the second longest bull market in the history of America. And you look at, again, all the issues and the fact that Congress has been unable to pass one meaningful sort of resolution or one meaningful kind of accomplishment since this new administration came in. I'm just not sure how you could put all your eggs in that one basket and say that this continues on. Gold is the ultimate insurance at a time like this. And my gosh, people need to be strapping on more insurance, in my opinion. Amir Anani, thank you so much for joining us. I look forward to hearing more news from you. My pleasure. Thanks for joining us. And thanks for watching our coverage here from the Precious Metal Summit. We'll have much more for you on kicko.com. Stay tuned. Thanks, Amir.


So let's start off with defining what are resources. A resource could be something in the lines of energy that we're going to use. It could be food. It could be water. It could be a variety of other possible materials that we would now consider as resources because we need them to sustain our high-tech-based lifestyles, such as everything that might go into an iPhone, everything that goes into your house, everything that goes into your car. For example, future electric cars are going to be highly consumptive of metals at levels that ordinary cars have not been to this date. So that's a resource, and it's a human-based idea. The Earth does not care about you, believe it or not. What we need to get from the Earth or are placed in the planetary system is something that the planetary system is not concerned about, but we can make use of it. So we're adapted as animals to our environment, and many of the things we use in our everyday life we possibly would not even call a resource. Food you eat, for example. Would you consider that as a resource? In some ways you should because you need it to live. And it's not something that appears spontaneously. You need food to make energy, to sustain your body. You need water, probably more important than food, and so on. So let's define a resource that way.