What's happening? Hey, it's Steve Maeda. We're live here with Damien Diekka who's in Sydney, Australia And you do a lot of stuff, but how I met you was through the 21 convention You gave a speech that talked about a lot of stuff of mainly happiness and I run these groups through my my programs and people when that video hit live because all the 21 convention videos took a little while to get up there on the feed and yours hit probably a year after you had given the speech man a bunch of guys in my group were enormously responsive to that about happiness about how you presented yourself and how it was refreshing to hear somebody That had had experience with women dating lifestyle that wasn't giving a message that was all crazy and from there You know we spoke we hung out all that sort of stuff And you know it's been over a year now and we've been like man We should do some sort of podcast and get together. How would you introduce yourself, man? Because you have so many things going on. It's really cool. Yeah, it's a bit full-on in it So, you know, yeah, I run a dating coaching company, but I'm also a life coach But my passion my passion lies with psychology and human behavior So, you know, I'm not a psychologist, you know, I'll say that up front But it's an area of I mean, I'm a prolific reader and researcher like I go nuts It's the one thing I think you've noticed it's one of the reasons we got together is I'm nuts for stats and information and and the truth And what what the scientific information really shows about men about women about how to be happy, you know Yeah, so so what am I I'm a I'm a I'm a guy who's passionate about helping people improve themselves so in this topic like first off, let me just say I think you're a dude that could come on a lot of different interviews and a You know TSL podcast that we do or or whatever it is So I'd like to have you on more and more just to talk about things but on this one we decided to focus on men's issues and I'm not sure exactly what to title it because it's such a heated thing, but men's rights men's empowerment men's men's focus groups This is something that has been a big part of what I wanted to move towards I reached out to you on it You were saying man, that's one of the things I'm really passionate about and I'm starting to do these groups and in Sydney with it and all over Australia but Let's talk about that and let's talk about what that means to you because you have an interesting perspective one of the first things You said was hey, let's make this clear. This is not about bashing women or denying feminism or anything like that What's your definition or perspective on men's rights? Yeah, right. Well, I mean look, yeah, absolutely. As you said, it's not about it's not we're not trying to play a playing game You know, we've just we're in a situation now where we've kind of had decades of Many decades of the feminist movement fighting for the rights of women, but rightfully so, you know, not in a bad way for the most part But what's happened as a result is men haven't been speaking up men haven't been fighting for their side of the rights Profile nearly as loudly as frequently as women and what's happened is we've ended up in a situation where we're skewed And that's not really women's fault. It really we only have ourselves to blame. You know, if we're gonna blame someone, it's ourselves Right, but in a situation like this and one of the reasons I'm so passionate about it is that we we we are The most to blame if we don't do anything about it We don't say anything about it. We don't educate men about all right Things have swung in this direction and things need to be equalized And you know, the funny thing is most women that I meet they want things to be fair as well I rarely meet a woman who says Who says or thinks in a very militant way that men have to be pushed down that they have to be squashed that Women really really want men to have their say as well for the most part. We're definitely not fighting them I think a number of guys think of you know, the very stereotypical feminist who's You know, kind of like angry anti-man, you know, it doesn't shave her armpits and But that's not it that that's really not what women are, you know, they want men and men and themselves to live happily ever after But we have to speak up. It's it's our it's our duty to speak up. It's not women's duty to say men What would you like to say on the matter? Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting with this is that in Order for people to be happy for men and women to be happy in our world that we live in today Men and women need to be a true expression of who we are like and it's so weird because equality can be debated And of such a loaded word where people like revolt against then build up all this, you know it's become a good thing and a bad thing because You know, let's say There might be some really angry men out there saying that when women are fighting for equality or vice versa You know really angry women out there and say when men are fighting for equality It creates an imbalance But for people to just be expresses of themselves and be what a man is supposed to be be what a woman is supposed to be Defined by that person. That's how we're going to be happy, you know But the more we regulate and set rules and all that sort of stuff man things get crazy But when it comes to men's perspectives men's rights all that sort of stuff What is the problem? You know, what are you seeing as part of the problem? You know today That's a that's a loaded question Well Yeah, we talked about the beginning the way I said, I guess, you know in in what was really popular feminism hit its peak in the 70s, right and What was what was kind of the the the thing at that point from the scientific community? Psychologically speaking was that men and women we are the same We are exactly the same except that we have different sort of sexual parts, right? But that society teaches us to be Boys or girls as far as our behaviors is concerned, right? And that was what the scientific community believed in at that time And we now know that today to be really quite quite outrageously incorrect I mean society plays a role in our behaviors, of course But there's a massive genetic and like and in that regard hormonal component that changes how we're wired how we're how We're how we're emotionally shaped as we as we grow up That means that men and women are always going to be different Right and to me until we accept that it's okay for men and women to be different not better or worse You know not not you know another party should be a second-rate citizen But that we are going to be different that through life on the whole men will tend to to make certain types of decisions Women will tend to make other types of decisions And even then there's a whole lot of gray area between because no one really perfectly fits the archetype Yeah, but until we actually accept that that we're supposed to be different to some degree. We can't really move forwards Because otherwise you've got men constantly pushing against what they feel they really are and you mentioned this before man is is You got to be who you are whatever that is and to instinctually like at your core You've got to be that and society pushes men to be something different You know what that is we can talk about as we go on today But the same thing for women, you know, I know because I coach women as well And the one thing I notice with women is that it's in some ways. It's even worse for them is that they're supposed to be They're supposed to be the mom the good mom They're also supposed to be great in bed and be a bit of a vixen And they're supposed to be really good in the kitchen and they're supposed to work really hard and have a career a full-time career And if they can't maintain all that then they're not a real woman Which is which is really two or three jobs.  Well, I'm gonna hit a white balance here again. See, oh, yeah There I am back But man, see this is what's so important and I think That especially with my groups because we have like 90 percent men 10 percent women And we're working on balancing that out But how the sexual life started was to uh, it was mainly a you know, a men's thing And I am big time on groups. I'm big time on people talking and I'm big time on Uh, this may sound odd from a coaching perspective, but Taking the authority the authoritarian approach out of it And making it more like a community where we're really enriched to work with each other So everybody's an equal when we start working within within my groups and When we get that what we've Come to discover with like our philosophies that we explore and the different principles that we work from is that Man, there are some beautiful things To you being expression of your own sexuality When we're following rules of society, we can't do that or or like, you know, you have to live within society, of course You know, there's great benefits of society. I don't want to say that it's a horrible thing and in reality, man We we're living within it. So we have to make it function But when we start regulating things of what a man is supposed to be what a woman is supposed to be And we look to that rather than within ourselves That's when things start to get conflicted and being a dating coach for so long in myself and working with people Man, you see sexuality be such a screwed up thing The answer if a guy comes to me and he says he wants to date better woman women have a better sex life Just know how to be a good date whatever it is or or have a Crazy and wild sexual adventure The answer is is you come up with a definition for yourself live it and go for it And figure out how to do that because that's the only way you're going to learn if it really is right or wrong for you But we're taught to do that by living in archetypes and only for in order for Me or a potential client or whatever to have a good sex life You need to be like another person And that's a terrible terrible idea, but I don't really see anybody many people offering an idea outside of that, right? You know, it's like terrible But that's the direct problem there on where we're having these gender issues in order for you to be a man You have to have these traits. You have to have the alpha traits in order for you to be a woman You have to have these traits if you're going to be a vixen You know if you're going to be a woman that's going to have a relationship you have to have these qualities And in reality what we have to do is have a relationship with ourselves That quality or principle and then learn how to communicate that to the world You know, I think that that is an important deal um As we're going to go deeper in this stuff I'd like to ask you some questions about the dating industry because We had also talked about that as well And I think you and I hit on some good areas. In fact, I emailed out to my groups There's about 200 guys that are a part of my my inner groups that we talk and interact interact with And I said, hey, I'm going to interview this guy, you know, some of you guys know him Here's his 21 convention video links What what should I ask him and what one of the guys actually had brought up? He's like, well, he brings up authenticity and being natural But then there's a day game approach with all the sort of stuff And and he didn't really I don't think he examined all of your stuff, you know It was more like, uh, you know the tagline of a day game coach or a Pua coach and then an authentic and natural guy and he wasn't a native English speaker guy either But what is your approach on the whole industry of dating? seduction pickup What's your take on it? Yeah, sure. So I mean when it comes, I mean look One thing everyone I guess has heard about for a long time. Anyways, there's this constant beating over the head of You know attracting women is an art form. It's an exact science blah, blah, blah, blah But as a result it also means that there's more than one way to approach girls There's more than one way to talk to them and interact with them and what I've noticed of You know the pickup industry as a whole and of course that's that's a very big bucket that I'm creating and I'm making a generalization um But what I noticed especially with you know in the last 10 years What was going on is that guys were being taught to kind of manipulate and play games and and and you know use people's self-esteem against them um to to pick up women and You know it look it's it's a strategy that works, but it works with a very limited Sort of a spectrum of the population So if I want to play games and manipulate to pick up women, I can pick up really hot women But there is there is a spectrum of women. I'll never get anywhere near And that spectrum of women is really what I call high quality women In other words women with a high self-esteem women who are really confident who are going places who know who they are Who know what they stand for um, you know the type of women you actually want to not just sleep with but you know kind Meet someone decent to actually settle down with and do all that stuff If you're playing games that woman is going to shut you down so hard I mean my partner. I remember the night I met her I watched another guy approach her with a really kind of old school line You know it was like an opinion opener. Hey, can I just ask you a question on something? You know um and and and she looked at him and she could she knew it was a line She'd never learned any pick up right, right? Yes, and she just said to look don't you have friends you can ask that question of why did you come to me? And the guy's like, oh, well, I um, I Um, you know, did you want to just answer the question?   I want to find out about you where are we at? You know, and that's that's you're not lying.    He's open, but he's got backbone.  He's got no time for that He's got he's got a high self-esteem. Yeah And potentially all this discussion may be food for yet another podcast because I mean, this is this is what I do and this is Clearly what you've done a lot of and you know still do as well as many other things But man, what I really think is like I can be a non quality guy can be a good quality guy But I'm gonna I'm gonna sync up with the state I'm at if I'm being my non quality self Which is based on you know a whole bunch of other stuff and and I'm really reliant on Running from the fear of who I am running from the rejections of that might come from me being me It's not going to be good And the only chance that I've had because I've had every type of relationship I've had good ones. I've bad bad ones. I've seen a lot of consequences of you know different types of relationships and and every everything that I could imagine that I wanted I went for and I feel that I've gotten Um When it when it comes to sex and relationships And that had nothing to do with what made me happy that had nothing to do with what gave me Functionality and relationships and maybe nothing may be the wrong word for that But it had so little to do with all of that and what had so much to do with it was where I was at Working on myself And learning how to communicate that to other people Um, but man you bring up, you know So This idea of being a man having a backbone Having some sensitivity to you What is your viewpoint on you know being a man?  What makes men different? You mean as opposed to from women? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so Um, again, you know, it's it's a big it's a big question But one of the things that I say and and you know, I'll preface this, you know, this isn't uh, this isn't really My material as in I take this from fantastic Authors fantastic instructors that I worked with over the years, of course But really the big thing is that men like to be straightforward So we like simplicity. We like emptiness.  We don't do anything strange. We don't kind of play games We don't do anything like that. All we do is we see what we want and we go for it And we say this is what I want if you watch two little girls And one little girl has has a toy and the other one doesn't and she wants that toy She will do one of two things She will walk over to that girl and she will negotiate a way in which they can both share that toy Or she will walk somewhere else and she will um Have a whole lot of fun doing something else and and draw the other girl over to her instead And then she can walk over and have the toy Um now now I'm I'm not trying to create an argument of all women are supposed to be manipulative and playing games Yeah, and I think that's important because people get caught up in that like somehow Damien Dieck has now made a rule and no, it's not that they would go on going there No, it's definitely not at all But all I'm trying to do is create this contrast of already at such a young age girls and negotiators and and and they They will use language and and structure relationships to get a mutual outcome Which is a very smart strategy boys are much more impulsive. They're much more um, they we like to be straightforward and society often teaches us to be very verbose Be very dance around the point when we want something. Um, they teach us to um They teach us in many ways to do things to negotiate in a way women negotiate Right now this becomes a problem in a lot of areas, you know, um, you know, imagine again a relationship is always the best place to to kind of place this Nothing feels better as a man Than to be in an interaction with a woman I don't care if you're starting to date or if you've just met her and literally saying Yeah, this is what I want. This is like very clearly. This is who I am. This is where I'm at. This is what I want To actually blurt it out and not dance around the bush and not try to do these other things around the edge Feels incredibly masculine, right? It gives you this real Feeling when you just really upfront about what you want with people Um, you know to be masculine is a heck of a lot more than that Because to be masculine, we have a massive amount of testosterone. So to be masculine is to be plagued by this constant um sexual arousal slash aggressive aggressive tendencies slash You know, we have this really dark part of ourselves that that will kill that would be willing to kill And to be masculine to be a man is actually to be aware of and comfortable And in control of these parts of ourselves Yeah, um, you know, one of the things that I always talk to guys when we go through Sex and sexuality which to me is really a definition of so many things Um, you know, I mean the sexual life to me means Like everything is sexual when two things Come together two different things come together. They create a new thing Whether that could be the obvious life or it could be emotions. It could be Just so much changes the dynamic and I really think when when connection happens, it's a beautiful thing And um, that is not limited to men and women. Anyway, I get all into the philosophy That's limited that that's everything how everything interacts. Um, but What's so interesting when we explore sexuality?   Yeah. Hey, no, it's awesome They said we're gonna we're gonna sex the baby, you know, and so uh, we're having a boy We just found out yesterday is a pretty amazing. It's really unreal, man The science behind it and you know seeing a move and it was freaking surreal, man but um, anyway In that It's like what is the sex?  There's different Uh motivations. There's different ways of thinking. There's different ways of learning all which you know Can be seen as there's some male ways And there's some female ways and one of the things that we've been bouncing around with tsl is that Every sex is capable of doing the other sex's stuff. All right But the Perhaps instinct or I forget like I said, man this this thing that I founded But it has become bigger than me and I forget what some of the guys were saying But they got all philosophical with it, but each sex is capable of the other sex, but the the instinct You know starts off in a different place And I think that that's very important and my sexuality, you know, whether I look at it my urge Whether I look at it my pattern whether I look at what my emotions are in it My mentality isn't it is very important and very unique, but if I am ashamed to Feel like my definition of a man or my definition of sexuality then it I start compensating. I start compromising who I am. I start taking away things adding things that don't work I'm afraid to say that that chicks hot because that might be a you know Attacking that might be a bad mentality. This might be vacation. Yeah.   I cannot that is hot I am sexually inspired towards that.  Anyway That all being said, do you have any thoughts on being a man what makes you different from being a woman in terms of of the raw sexual aspect of it like How that affects them I guess in well, let's keep it simple Because this this again is kind of a loaded question But how men and women are different Based on how they court or communicate or flirt Yeah, well, I mean look the interesting thing Is that in both sexes notice Sexual cues straight away, right? So, you know, even the research says the same thing Both sexes men and women if they see it as a member of the opposite sex that's hot They'll both go, huh, they've got my attention But one of the big obviously the big strata of differences is guys is and that pool is a lot stronger You know for guys, you know, it's also doing a mating strategy and and a lot of stuff It you know in that we never have to worry about pregnancy our first pull is towards something sexual And that is that's a strong pull And and it doesn't matter who you are. That's going to be a piece of the seduction puzzle You know when I coach women, they need to understand this too They didn't need to understand that if a man says a woman is asexual It's almost impossible for him to get interested in her emotionally If that makes sense, it's it's quite a hard thing for a man to do for a woman That's not necessarily a barrier So, you know, men have we get quite locked You know, this is actually interesting if you have ever seen Gay men interact and then gay women interact It's two very very different things and they're both sexual They're both like, you know, they they both achieve a level of sexual being sexually healthy together And but it's totally different communications and and I mean, it's It's just a night and day difference And then when you see heterosexuality come together, it's like it's the conflicts of those two things trying to communicate It's it's pretty nuts, you know But yeah So there's this, I mean, you know, there is this natural and I believe it's completely natural by the way There's this natural competition between men trying to have sex and by the way men For men very often sex is Is an important part in the falling in love with someone and interestingly enough There's a lot of research to suggest that men fall in love quicker than women, which I think would surprise a lot of people Yeah, I could I didn't see that.  It's not Let me just uh, sorry to interrupt.  It's like We can't connect On that same level. See I've always thought men and women are the same It's just we go through different processes in the in the process of courtship dating aroused all sort of stuff in different areas when men get aroused There's a they're aroused, you know, they're they they want to have sex there. They, uh You know, they have this overwhelming physical urge. I believe women do too.  It's got to be unique. It's got to be what is this happening here?  How do we, you know, the resistance that we get from women? Uh is is a good thing. It means we're on the right path because that's part of her process But guess what guys?  You're like man, this is awesome. And then as soon as you're done She's like, okay, cool.  But man, let me tell you when I talk to women who are sexually active Who are very, you know, not looking to get anything tied down. They're just going through that phase or maybe that's their entire personality They will tell you straight up.  I get up and leave Yeah, I get it and it's it's like, okay.  It's crazy You know, it's it's really a cool thing But yeah, men and women don't get how similar they are But I feel it's just different steps of the process. Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt But I love hearing that because so few people Point that out so few people and especially in the seduction community I almost want to say should never take sex advice from somebody in the pickup community because it's It's so wrong It's so screwed up and from this fucked up perspective that is It really is screwed and then in the scientific community One of the problems with that is there's just not enough experience of people having sex So there's got to be this merging of communication as long as people aren't talking about there's no So when you're saying men feel emotion through sex, I just had to chime in there go on.  You're talking about something awesome, but I'm straight. I was saying what was it? Yeah, so yeah, okay, so men I mean men we we feel like we connect through sex yeah, so that's part of the thing if if uh If if we feel unsure about our woman if we feel like we need love from her What do we do we go to have sex with her if we're in a relationship? It's actually a piece of it. Um So it's very different. It's very different between men and women. I can't remember where I was going with that I'll I'll be honest. So so maybe we should go on and I'll come back. Yeah, I think something with the differences of You know how men and women date and courtship and all that sort of stuff but um How about this let's move on and let's go into some of these these other questions because I know we're talking a lot about dating and sex and we were supposed to talk all of this men's movement stuff But how is it that men are disempowered in modern culture? um, yeah like what What's affected? You know by that disempowerment. Is it their self-image? Is it the relationship of a whole? Like how does it work because a lot of people might hear that?  Men are absolutely disempowered in modern culture. Yeah, I mean it's it's huge I mean if we just look at you know, like suicide rates Um, you know around the world.  That's indicative of something it's indicative of something going wrong But but where is it going wrong? It's you know, to me one of the big things I was researching recently is Boys and girls developmentally how how we were different and really starts really early on So if you look at a male brain, they're actually structured differently You know and one of the big differences is the way that you get a boy's attention Is caught and held So it actually requires a much greater stimulus to grab and hold a male male's attention That's that's that's a that's a Physiological thing. It's a higher threshold to stimulus external stimulus Um, and when you have our attention Yeah, it really require a high stimulus to hold that attention So a lot of that's to do with dealing with stress dangerous situations danger blah blah blah historically But it is what it is now And then you've got these classrooms that are set up in such a way where Boys boys do best when they compete Sports are a perfect example of that when you're competing when boys compete with each other is when they work damn hard And then you know boys boys make a competition of everything, you know like You know the last one there's a rotten egg and I reckon I can pedal faster than you and I reckon You know do more push-ups than you and we compete. That's how we grow and that's how we learn and that's how we play As children right from the beginning When you watch little girls, how do they learn they learn by by collaboration talking and sharing of ideas and you know Exploring out each other's viewpoints That little girls do that as children the boys compete and that's how we learn But if you look at the school system and how it's set up and I bring this up because just really honestly, dude That's this is where it starts for children What is a school environment? It's an environment where you are pushed You're not competing especially in australian america competition is being knocked out of the systems that nobody feels like a loser and you have a system where classrooms are quiet And what you do is you're supposed to collaborate on everything with the people around you and discuss As groups and think things through as groups and this is how the education system works um, and this is a problem because boys Uh, not all boys, but many boys really suffer With this because this is alien to them. This is not how they grow and so you get this notion that boys are bad because boys are hyperactive And boys boys cause more trouble in class and boys are going to bug and pester each other in class and that makes boys annoying to teach So boys are bad So from a very early age what we start being taught is that hey I know you've got more testosterone and I know you've got you have a much higher need to create stimulation for yourself Because the way your brain is structured, but you're a bad person as a result And so what you end up with is you kind of end up with a 60 percent higher dropout rate of boys than girls through high school You know because right from the beginning things are structured away from how we know How we know boys work and let me just chime in here when you hear statistics Like a lot of my female friends may hear this and or or even male friends when we're looking at statistics like this You might be like, uh, well, you know, whatever. That's just how people are number one This wasn't how it always was You know men are not characteristic of committing more suicide than women number two If we looked at this in terms of if this was with women More women killing themselves or let's say a particular race. Yeah That's where you would be like, well, wait a minute in the u.s. Or in australia, you know African-american In the u.s. African-americans, but you know, we're we're committing suicide at that much of a higher rate That's the that's the civil rights, man that's that's where people saw it as such a powerful thing that had to change And that's what's crazy and the the other thing too is is But I think it's so characteristic when you look at just how boys learn and how girls learn I just know for myself with boys is that, uh You know, there's much more exploration. There's much more adventure much more hands on once again This is not to say that the other gender can't have these characteristics or is to be denied of it But I think what's being said here is the that the choice and empowerment of somebody's urge towards education Needs to be looked at and facilitated and as long as it's denied and seen as bad behavior It's going to work towards poor self-image. Um, there was something that uh Gosh, man. Originally. I heard this is very funny. It's from this crazy conservative Right-wing radio show pundit, but he said all the alpha males In modern age ended up in prison and I was like, wow Wow, you know, and it's one of those things where it's like You know, here is this person who uh You know, clearly there people are in prison for a reason and all that sort of stuff and that's a whole other issue Because that system is especially in america has become such a capitalistic venture. It's ridiculous, but man All of those people could have had a chance If we had a better way of learning a better societal image for different outlets, but the restriction You know of being a man the restriction of certain outlets or of how you might want to learn or how you might want to Use your use your body use your mind use your emotion When those are halted it goes crazy. In fact, I was talking to a guy who deals with uh anger management and working with people of all the you know, whether they're war veterans to people in incarcerated to people that You know, maybe had a slight run of the law or to a higher degree But he'll tell you he's like man. I work with men you know exclusively And one of the characteristics of working with a man is that he needs to know You know the the male mind and how it works and he goes with much more of a sociological Take on it and it's really interesting, but he said, you know, if we hold a lion in captivity And that lion, you know after years and years and years and years of working with a trainer ends up attacking and mauling his trainer Everybody understands you caged a lion. It's not supposed to live in that way He's like that is what's happened To modern male culture is there's so much that's been caged and that doesn't know how to communicate And it's just frustration and turns into chaos and sadly that ends up in violence Which is just this miscommunication Violence is you know one person saying I want this the other person saying no and then forcing it to happen You know, it's it's a disconnect or it comes in through, you know Interviolence or self-hatred and alienating yourself and isolating yourself from the culture You know these things that we were naturally made to do to connect You know, that's that's it man. That's the real nature of human beings is to connect To the urge to want to see another person and in curiosity and sure there might be some fear around there But man, we are social animals brain structure Everything about us. Yeah, and now naturally it's seen is that there's disconnect It's common for us to have these problems and it's just really a sad thing when we have so much potential to To communicate on these bigger ways anyway Man, yeah, so what are some of the other things because you're breaking down some statistics You're breaking down some different ideas um You know a lot of people will say men have it easier in the career place or the workplace But there's also studies showing that You know, yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's a lot to talk about, you know glass ceiling um and and it's an interesting thing because There's a lot of different pieces of research that play into this whole idea and this isn't really a way that men are hurt but it's a way that We we misconstrue what's really happening in the world around us by not understanding how different men and women are You know one of those things is that uh, you know, if you look at the number of hours that men and women work Uh in an average work week, uh 20 and men work over, um 50 hours a week Uh and only seven percent of women work over 50 hours a week and and This is said to I don't know exactly how they calculate But they suggest this this accounts for 70 to 80 percent of the of the glass ceiling or the the income gap between men and women Right and and one of the things that we don't realize is that there's a number of societal pressures forcing men to work themselves into the ground It's not because women are lazy. They're not women are generally deciding to live better lives rather than earn more money But there's a massive societal pressure on men to work themselves into the ground So that they can afford to send their kids to a better school So that they can afford to buy their wives nicer things And you know the men seem to be the breadwinner And society still feels it makes a lot of men feel small if they aren't the they aren't bringing in a lot of money There's this massive pressure on guys and not on women So you get this this this thing that men we choose jobs that are stressful Any job with a high stress environment women go nowhere near it rather than the actual results of yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so that's somehow your definition of you know hard work and all that stuff is your definition of being a man Yeah, exactly. And it's it's not it's not like hard work like work is a good thing You know work makes the person a better person No, it's it's that women generally even if you look at university degrees people things that people choose men often when they Asked why did you choose that degree? And I did the same thing I went straight out of school straight in the engineering did engineering and commerce two degrees together Why well because there was money in it I didn't really care about engineering. I didn't care about commerce You talk to girls and you and what degrees they tend to do Obviously there weren't nearly as many girls in engineering as the whereas there are in I don't know psychology law other topics Why did you get into this area? Because I I like the idea of it. I'd like to study this I'd like to do this with my life Whereas for men it still tends to be I choose this because it's going to make me money So they put themselves in jobs like the really high stress jobs as I said before Um, um, like stock traders is a perfect example You're there on the floor. How many women are in that room two three? How many men are there a hundred? And the reason you get that is because of you could say well men are going to push the women out But I've seen interviews with female stock traders and they say it's great being a woman because you stand out like Dogs balls. It's easy to get picked the men aren't they aren't mean to you. They treat you like anyone else Um, they don't they don't the women in there don't really say that the men push them out But what happens is that it's just it's high stress and most women don't pick that They would rather be happy Uh to live a good life because men we just have all that pressure to take the tough work to take the dangerous work You know, um, um men men occupy the 90% of the most dangerous jobs Yeah, you know mine work blah blah blah You know we work in construction sites but expose electrical outlets and and and balconies without balustrading We can fall off and you never find a woman. You never find a secretary walking working in those conditions You'd find a male labor working in those conditions So we picked the dangerous jobs because they pay better because we're so money focused because society Has a better a better image. I mean it may not be that it pays better. That's the fucked up about it You know It has an image Like I mean man, I'll tell you this just from pressure myself You know like I have You know, I've had this business for a while do my own thing Very happy with it. Now in this relationship and in this family that we've created It's like, all right How does this happen and you start to look at the archetypes? I mean you can't help it. It's like, okay Well, you know, I need some help here.   You've got to step it up. And so the pressure of that is like directionless You know and unless you're winning unless you're at the top unless you've got the gold medal unless you've got the prize or whatever you're Uh, you're not there, you know, you're you're constantly feeling that you have something to work towards and um There's just not a lot of outlets. There's there's so many different things too and um Just to switch gears here too is that when it comes to an anthropoc- an anthropological look at things, um There have been many different societies where people have lived happy Um many different ways of living that just get on when we hear about them in western culture Or modern culture, whatever you want to call them is they seem absurd. They seem, you know, disgusting They seem whatever but what we need to realize is the name of the game is to be happy and there have been matriarchal societies that have been very functional. There have, uh been societies where, you know Sexes with everybody and and and all sorts of stuff. In fact, like when columbus hit Uh the americas he hit with the airwax who had a very different social and sexual life That he thought was so appalling but hop over a few islands and talk to the caribs And you have this like vicious warlike culture That you know was more aggressive now who's to say one is functional or dysfunctional I'm sure in their island and in their society they made stuff work. They had a sense of belonging They had a sense of self And what we're seeing in our society is the more people that come in You know the bigger the walls come up the more we need fences the more we need territories The less people communicate the less people talk to each other and the more distant we become And the more judgmental we become and need judgment in order to have Intellect diversity and all the sort of stuff which gets all the way up into this men's rights thing This feminism thing of that rather than it for unity Sex two different things becoming one so it can become something new It becomes our identity rather than me being me I feel more comfortable being steve the men's rights guy or rather than You know some of my my well actually all my female friends that call themselves feminists are very cool But then this weird stereotype of feminism comes through that you know, it's like angry and militant that you read about But personally, I don't really know many of those. I've met many of those in my life You know, I only see them on facebook. Actually. Yes. Yeah, I'm out. It's like I don't I've never really interacted with That like I have a little bit, but it's so slim It's so slim But when I see people start representing themselves is a cause, you know, rather than who they are or You know a belief in something without their life experience, you know to To sense it that's when I see things starting to get totally screwed up And that's where the need of women's rights came into play of like, hey, how do we facilitate our identity? How do we empower this? How do we look at it? And then the need for Now men's rights what we're talking about is like, what does it mean to be a man? Like how can we assert this? How can this be a better, you know thing? How how can we not Look to society to define us and rather look at us, you know, how can we not feel bad about our sexuality or drive to do things? Maybe our Maybe things might be more aggressive. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Maybe things are passive. That doesn't mean it's bad So it's like, how can we move towards this? But um Once again lost in the conversation. Let's get back to this. But like what are some of the What's different about how men see the world and apply themselves? and uh How can they really be proud of it? We touched on it a little bit but How can we take pride in who we are? You know, what is the difference about?  In that in those masculine traits and what's a way that they can start being proud of that? Yeah, I mean it's an interesting thing. Um Men are men are more like In this in this sexual stuff than they than they know and the biggest problem I find with men is that they never actually Uh, this sounds really airy-fairy, but they never share their thoughts So I know I agree with you on that But keep going Yeah, yeah, man That and this is one of the big things when we do When we run because we run something totally unrelated to to dating pickup Which is like men's groups, which is on the work of David Dater and coaching men in their own right Um masculinity and one of the big aspects of that is them sharing Really deep dark stuff that's happening inside You know and one man may say, you know, I get this weird kind of thing in my head like I just It's like a fantasy like I don't actually want to rape a woman But it's this weird fantasy like I just I'd love to be able to I'd never do it And you know, he would never do it. This is a really Placid guy. He's not an aggressive man at all He'd never do but he's sharing this this weird thing that's going on inside that he conflicts with And you'll get two other guys go. Oh my god, man. I get that I totally And and men don't realize things like this like if that sort of feeling comes up They they feel like oh my god, that must mean I'm a deep deep down inside. I'm a rapist. Yeah And it's really crazy, but there are I mean, that's just a little example There are so many examples like that where we are Until we realize it that that's being naturally man That makes sense until we realize that hey, you know what part of being a guy is to be going to have this really dark sword inside to yourself There's part of yourself that's going to think a sex that's going to objectify women at times and it depends on how you define objectify but it's going to do that And uh, it's going to do lots of things that women are going to tell you in society that's evil But that's just being part of being a guy Women still want their guys to be guys Right, um to me. Yeah, so it aren't the question to me a lot of it's to do with sharing Um, because you know at the end of the day and I don't really want to bring it back to to sort of pick up stuff But a woman is horniest when she feels the most sexy Yeah, you know one thing that makes a woman feel sexy is if a guy she she likes Desires her wants her like really hungers for her As long as he's the right guy that makes her feel very aroused for a woman to feel like desired. Yeah, it's a big deal um And if guys are constantly shy and afraid and scared of that part of themselves In other words, they've got a share to understand how normal it is and then literally, you know I don't like the militant a lot of that militant feminism stuff But one thing they've got going is I'm a woman and I'm proud of that Totally Yeah, um for women. It's kind of it's it's the same deal, but it's different for women It's the fact that they they are they can be crazy emotionally crazy all over the place neurotic at times But every woman feels like that every woman experiences that but they don't share that because women are supposed to be normal Just like men so to speak and they're not that's different So men we've got this dark sexual side That's a big part to being a man and you know what sharing getting together with other guys and actually sharing that deep dark stuff You'll be amazed man We're on the whole we're just not that different we share this dark side once you realize we've all got it And that's a part of being a guy I'm just gonna chime in again here man because this is like the where You know, you and I Don't talk all the time But here's one of the big crossovers is the need for men to communicate and share This fucking huge man and people don't realize that and just to share that sort of stuff Or like it could be something, you know that Take some courage to share it just might be like I just want to say it You know, there's something about like for instance if we're gonna say something publicly or to a group of Of men and women it might be inappropriate, but when there's a group of men It can absolutely be appropriate because everybody would understand it Whether that's talking about life Or it's talking about relationships with women So it could be saying something like that would be interpreters is massively like Judgmental and sexually objective objectifying thing or it could be something which is just so alien that women Or a group of men and women wouldn't get, you know, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it And the pride to take a stance and be a man should be Man people should be voicing that and what that is now.    Okay, so then I go through my life. I don't have relationships I'm don't get it just you know, it's a confusing situation clearly more confusing for her and um The thing is is that as I started to get sexually active You know, I start watching pornography, which I actually don't have a problem with that. That's like another heated issue too. Um but uh I I started to become sexually active. I watch porn. I'm going man. I like this. Fuck. I'm I'm like I'm like the rapist that you know You know that ruin lives that do these horrible things And then I start having sex and years later actually, you know years later So this happened when I was 18 I'm talking about when I'm 25 I start having being sexually active And I start to be sexually active with you know More than one woman now And so it's like I'm experimenting and I'm like man. I like this. Fuck. I like this aggressive style I like this like choking this slapping this these these moves, you know that that I see also like making love I also like feeling emotion.     It's a real problem.  All right. We need it to be a healthy communicating person. We also need to socialize to live All right If we're doing sexual behavior that's addictive It it means that we don't need to stop having sex or halt sex or sex is a bad thing That's very different than drugs. You do not need drugs to live You do not need that that does not that's dysfunctional. You can be fine without it There's plenty of different ways to escape and yadda yadda yadda And so the idea of abstinence from certain sexual behaviors um Man, it really sends the wrong message. Yeah, sure. We may need to lay off.  You know that person needs an outlet To communicate that anger so it can move into something else that anger is there for there for a reason anger is a natural human emotion that we need um It's it can be dysfunctional in a lot of ways, but it's got to learn to communicate and connect and exploration comes from within Anyway, that was a little bit crazy of a rant and Yeah, but you know, it's true.  I think it's really damaging for both guys and girls Yeah, if you if you have some Something that you think is a secret This is the importance of a group.  Um Man, uh, there was something else that I was thinking about in that But let me ask you this when it comes to the idea of sexual objectification You had said some pretty cool things my my girlfriend just made a video about it and um, um You know, you would uh sent me a message about it But what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it's um It's such a it's such a loaded topic because you're on the one hand You understand the argument that everyone makes you know what a woman doesn't feel like she's only the sexual being Right and it's actually this almost double standard All this this double message that's being passed to women to two men Sorry, and one is that you know, you shouldn't look at a woman and make her feel like she's just a sexual object Yeah, but on the other hand you get your girlfriend saying does my ass look big in this tell me I want to look pretty today That's stupid, but seriously both messages get get passed on to us And you've got this you've got this thing where there's a very small section of guys of people of human beings who Um are completely disconnected from their emotions and like basically addicted to sex Right and people in that situation are damaging They're just as damaging as people are addicted to drugs or people addicted to other things They hurt other people to get what they want right and and but the reality of objectification of seeing a woman thinking God damn it There's nothing wrong with that and and you know again to jump onto research Men are actually Everyone knows men and women women generally are better at reading body language than men They're just their brains the way they develop the much better reading like vocal intonations and emotional state of people are communicating with Um, I'll start off the bat women are in general better than men the second where it was sexually stimulated the second We quote unquote objectify a woman We're completely in sync with what she's feeling with what she's experiencing with what she's thinking Where all of a sudden we're more in tune than will ever be at any other point in time And that's to me. That's quite instructive to the whole Um idea that you should feel bad if you've objectified a woman Um Because for 90 percent of guys 95 percent of the healthy male population That's actually how we start to tune into a woman's wants and needs.  So it's weird the definition of objectification Is to objectify somebody so you don't feel anything but when we feel but a lot of Critics of sexual objectification men and women will say that when you're sexually objectifying a woman You're then making her an object But really in that act of us feeling what we really feel It puts us in sync with women on a different level and I think what's important about The point that you make is that we have a different mind when we're aroused You know when we make rules about sex like what are the rules I learned in school?   You have a relationships Let's just take the issue of wearing a condom.  It's the same night. It's been two weeks of dating.  It's good.  I got to get a condom.  Here's what would make sense. Here's what everybody would agree on that makes sense Okay, we're sexually attractive science has made it possible through the use of uh, you know Prophylactics that we can have sex and be you know Safe from some diseases And so let's have sex We we can do that now. Let's go to the doctor get ourselves checked out and see what happens and da da da man That shit does not happen And so when I hear people start to talk about how to have a better sex life and communicate with Men and women and how it's supposed to go man.   But you know, I'm not a psychologist But man, I have like a I've worked with a lot of people I've worked with a lot of people in terms of addiction as well And and I do get this but now I'm I'm putting my foot down on it because I've seen so many guys work with sex therapists And they'll tell them don't masturbate for 90 days You know, we see this on the ted talks and all this sort of stuff. Um, don't watch porn Um, a lot of times it'll be regulation of dating. Don't touch don't escalate too much.  They'll Go through getting a lot of prostitutes.  The thing is you have to get back to who you are and Be able to be open and intimate with in front of somebody and a lot of times what society will give us in any realm Whether it's learning martial arts Presenting yourself as a public speaker starting a business Dating sex is how can you do this without failing? How can you do this without experiencing? You know screwing up losing And when we do that We can only do that without being ourselves. And so we learn these hacks We learn these ways to do things which are detached from us and then we build a dysfunction, man You know, we're making money, but not us. We're having relationships. It's not us. I'm having sex It's one hack to cut the other's kind of the other along the way Man, and that's the thing is there's no there's no shortcut. Um I'm sure you you said you're like a really busy Guy and I think we need to have this discussion more And I also think that we need to have it where uh Man, some of my guys would just love to ask you questions because again once again, there's also This uh, you know people really like Like a lot of stuff you've said and I'm bringing bringing some very reasonable sense to Some some hardcore issues that aren't just around men's rights Um, how can guys find out more about you? Um, and then I'll ask the rest of the questions later Yeah, man. Um, look guys can guys can check me out on the website my website So the company I run school of attraction so they can just head on over to school of attraction.com today you They can check me out. Um, I've I've written a lot of articles and done a lot of videos on Uh, a lot of these types of topics, but you know what man? I as well I'd love to I'd love to have a chance to answer some of the questions that they've got them Um, you know if we want to chat I uh, I uh, I enjoy all these little chats and I enjoy it I mean we these guys don't know but you and I every all every now and again We have a bit of a chat on facebook He starts a we start to argue for a case on a post someone's put up on a new article Right come out and search and there's a lot of areas of passion interest that we kind of share outside of just dating And pick up or outside of just men's rights and um Yeah, man, I'd love to talk more about some of this stuff as well. Absolutely And uh, here's some things because you turned me on to a lot of stuff But what are some things including your own? resources That if men are looking to empower themselves better, what are you know, what's a good reading list? What's a good? Uh, you know, maybe your websites that can facilitate that. What's a good outlet for them to find how to empower themselves? Yeah, right. So um, you know, I You know We I don't have a lot of material on this online That's of my own at this point because we run our training programs for the men We run the trustable man.com that we only run those programs in sydney at this point But I'll tell you what if men are looking to to just to explore this area themselves There's really two places I'd send them because these have been two of the most Instructive books on the topics that we've been discussing today And one would be the book that I mentioned to you which was um, which was the myth of male power Yeah, and that was really that was a fantastic book. It really I before that point I had no concept of how Many ways there were in which the balance of power had skewed Against men how many ways men were disadvantaged? We don't see it. And um, and that was just absolutely blew my mind And the other book which I found absolutely incredible was and I'm sure you've mentioned to your group before is the Way of the Superior Man By David data and that's still my favorite book of all time. It's you know, it's interesting that You know, I've never seen a book where and this book's written for men Right, but I've never seen a book where so many women have read it and then come to me to that Oh my god, I've never felt so typecast as a woman before but in such an accurate way Well, it's funny because he also writes books for women too, you know, I mean, yeah Yeah, absolutely, you know, my my partner was almost kind of half angry at that point Because she up to that point had always assumed, you know, I'm unique. I'm I'm quite different from most women You know, I'm very unusual and she reads this book. It was like god damn it. This is me. Ah Yeah, you know when I read that it hit a number of spots because I when I coached the guys that I work with Whether it's in in men's work or dating and relationships or even their life You if you can't get to that point where you are being yourself being that real version of yourself are being straight forward Just saying this is what I want in the world.  This is what I want.  It was one of the most um It was one of the most Powerful experiences I've ever had was reading wave of superior man and then I did a whole course on it Yeah, I think what's you know, you you brought something up interesting First off some some guys in my group would want to argue with you on that because they uh, they they're like Everybody references that book. So then there's people that question and there's just so many people talking from so many different perspectives that You know we're I mean like we've cultivated community. So we we argue and talk about all this sort of stuff But um, but everybody for the most part um You know agrees with the idea of that we need to somehow Become a better version of ourselves and anything out there that's promoting that is essentially good and Man, it's it's all good stuff like even in that sense like Uh seduction as much as we've been saying like, ah, here's the problem with it. Here's you know, what's wrong with it? The fact that that movement movement came was a good thing because guys needed to Is ridiculous as it was man, there's so much good about it. It's like guys should be Like have an outlet to say like hey sex is okay. Here's how to have better sex Here's how to meet better people it just was a little little weird at first and and still working out the kinks but um You brought up something about your partner saying, oh man, you know, I always thought it was an individual And here's the beauty of it is that as long as we are divided and compartmentalized all that sort of stuff We're gonna our individuality Of thinking that we're different is going to build walls around us when we can unify together and say, hey We're all human beings. Hey, we're all part of biology. Hey, we're a part of this awesome Fellowship of men and women that unite and da da da We then we go like we as men have these characteristics We have women have these characteristics when we can unify on those things then our true individually Individuality can come out because we've stopped fighting what we're trying to You know seek our independence with it's a funny, you know, it's funny because I just went to anthony's wedding and He's always I'm an individual. I'm an individual and hey, I'll let him have it, you know I should interview him about that but but I'm always like I'm not an individual I'm a part of all this other stuff.  It's a fucking awesome belief Anyway, whatever Dude awesome having you Um, any last words that you that you want to say anything that you feel you left out Yeah, one one one thing I do kind of want to put that out there to people listening Because we've done a lot of talking about what's man and what's woman and and kind of talk about that a bit One thing I just want to make clear to anyone listening is that it's it is a spectrum You know while while people tend to be skewed towards what you'd call stereotypically masculine or stereotypically feminine There are lots of people that fall in the middle or on the opposite side to where they Where where you know their gender or their their sexual appendages suggest they should be And there is just because it's unusual doesn't mean make it wrong doesn't make it doesn't mean you should change Doesn't mean you should adapt and doesn't mean that everybody else shouldn't be embracing it Um, and I think you know while we talk about that steroid, we are only talking maybe about the 80% Yeah, it's living out 20% of people who don't fall clearly under one of those poles Yeah, and and I kind of want to make that clear that doesn't mean there's something wrong with you That means you actually have to explore where you fall in that spectrum because it is a spectrum Um, and I yeah, I think that's a big thing that I'd like anyone listening to to get is that it's not You're not just locked into one of the other you fall somewhere between them You know, and if you're a guy you probably fall more toward the male side, but you're not necessarily That doesn't make you a pussy or it doesn't make you gay or it doesn't make you anything It just makes you who you are. Yeah. Yeah, so that's uh, that's one thing that I think hasn't been mentioned I think it's important for the guys listening. Yeah, man. I think that's really That's that's a very very important point And I think that goes with everything that you promote of you know being that expression of you Um, dude, I I want this dialogue to be you know, hopefully we have more of these and we branch out of all this other stuff And it turns into a free forum conversation, but man Good stuff. I really appreciate it. And uh, man, you're in a heat wave down there in sydney in austin It's freezing right while it's colder in the northern u.s. We got a good but But um, yeah, it's crazy the beauties of the internet and the beauties of unifying people man You're you know in the other hemisphere and we're having this conversation. So good stuff, man. Um It was a pleasure. Let's talk again soon. Yeah, it's been great fun state. Take care, man. All right, cool