Hello, I can't, howdy, hey, now I can hear you. Yep. Thanks again for moving this to a UK friendly time for me. I appreciate it. Oh, it's not a problem. I mean, we put in the afternoon just to begin with because we didn't have any Europeans joining us and knew that we might have to move it. You know, but for all of us who are here in the US, speaking in the west coast of the US, we have this thing where our mornings are packed full of stuff and our afternoons are pretty much free. So, I have the opposite thing like anytime I can schedule something in my morning because my mornings are wide open and then there's this chunk of US overlap that's just booked solid every single day. Yeah, the, yeah. I'd rather have that honestly because I think I would get more non meeting work done. My problem is always, you know, after having five hours of meetings, I'm pretty much wiped out. Yeah, it actually works really well for me because I tend to work better on focused work in the morning anyways. And so it's really nice to have this chunk of time where I can just get stuff done. And then and then have all my meetings. So then you guys just get me when I'm sleepy and tired of working all day, but I'm smack in the middle between the two of you. Yeah, that's true.  Yeah, sort of in the middle.  Okay, so we have a relatively short agenda, although there's likely to be some discussion. One is, we have sort of an outline for we've got the content development issue. We have the ongoing saga of the maintainer multi organizational requirement. And then if people have other business, other things that they're working on that they want to bring up. So let's go ahead and get started. So this is an official meeting of a CNCF working group as such a subject to the CNCF code of conduct, which all of you are familiar with. It is also being recorded and shows up on some CNCF YouTube channel somewhere. So do keep that in mind. And we will get started. So welcome everybody. So our first thing is I we sort of hammered out a little bit of an outline so a big portion of the work of this working group is simply preparing a whole bunch of written content as guidance for the projects. The, and this basically falls into two types of content. One is general content about developing governance for open source projects. And the second part is specific guidance on the CNCF requirements at the various levels. The latter being, you know, we need to write a document on. Hey, I, you know, to become even a sandbox project you have to adopt the CNCF intellectual property policy what does that practically mean for your project. Right, what do you actually have to do other than saying you adopted it. So I've got a relatively large checklist of items here. The, the other thing is a lot of these items are going to overlap heavily with contributor growth, because things like a contributor ladder is both a contributor growth document and a governance document right because obviously we have certain governance rights, but contributor growth is how we decide who becomes a maintainer, etc. The so we'll be collaborating on those. My main reason to put this up was actually honestly for people to volunteer to take individual things. As you go. So, got that issue there, which is linked off of the table contents. So, any comments, thoughts, volunteering, or any of these I'm still getting up speed or any of these work in progress already do we have bits and pieces of these and other documentation. I have a bunch of bits and pieces my next thing to do is to actually start pasting them into the repository as PRs. Because there was some hold up on starting the working group. I've been in parallel for general governance advice I've been in parallel working on red hats new addition to the open source way governance chapter and so I need to paste a lot of that in and modify it to be suitable for the CNCF stuff. So that's the main work in progress I have for a lot of these other things honestly we can pull examples from the projects who've already done them well. Like for example the role documents there's a couple of projects that actually have good.  And a lot of our documentation can be just pointing to those as examples. So yeah, so people have stuff it is not in our repo is the current status. Okay, so we can just kind of search around and look at some of the projects and pull together something that looks reasonable. Yeah, and stuff from outside the CNCF to I have a question for the how to create how to write once we're going to have templates that came from your growth. Yeah, are we just going to walk them through like here are the things you should be thinking about. Yeah, is that what is that what it's going to be. Yeah, that's my thought right because they have to, I'm taking from the perspective of hey, they have to have this how to contribute document in order to be accepted. Yeah, into incubating I think. And I mean ideally they have it for sandbox but I think it's a requirement at the incubating level. Yeah, it does okay so maybe they have to have it for sandbox. And, oh yeah yeah sorry it isn't my list for sandbox. And so here it is. And so, I mean that's one of the ones where, you know, and this is why I was asking you for contributor growth, whether we should actually be working on a shared folder for this because it's going to be the same document. And so what we would be supplying from a governance perspective is a little wrapping around saying hey, this is a requirement at the sandbox level and this is, you know, Yeah, yeah so so what we're going to have is the template, which says, like, you can copy paste it use it, and there's going to be in line markdown comments essentially that'll help you with optional parts, or like things to think about. Like, we'd also have in the governance part, or governance will help create a walkthrough essentially. I don't know what the template looks like is a walkthrough actually required. The templates going to have like I said markdown comments if you open up and edit it in GitHub or markdown editor you're going to see those low grade out HTML comments that say like, let's do that what should you think about if your project has this use this section of your project has a DCO for example use that. But it may be nice to have another introductory document that just says why it's important what we're doing what's the goal, because like the template just talks about the brass tacks of like, this is how you fill it out. Because sometimes people don't always understand how it's going to be used and why we care about it as a requirement. If that makes sense. So I think there's still value in having to introductory. Like, This is why you should care setting. Yeah. Okay, some rain is down. What I'm struggling with right now is I don't know where to put the template, or where we would put this document, as soon as we start writing it, you know, like right now it's living in like Google Docs, but I prefer to be submitting PRs at this point. Yeah, I've kind of taken the perspective that if we're in brainstorming mode that we do it in something like a Google Doc or hack MD, because it, it's very hard to do line item contributions via PR. And then, you know, when you've got a first draft and this is how I intend to do the sections that I'm doing, when I have a first draft then submit that as a PR. Yeah, but where does it go. Once we have the PR. Like we talked about having a template repo that someone could actually just fork and use as a brand new repo that follows all this CNCF guidelines and suggestions. But I can't make that so if we could get someone to make that that'd be awesome. And then all of our contribution guidelines, things like that. I got pushed back when I talked about putting it in the other existing repo people. And it sounded like maybe it wasn't the right spot for this stuff so maybe it should be going in our repo. What what other repo. The CNCF. Is it called pressure you. Yeah. I was talking about in Slack the other week that I was kind of confused because either I misunderstood where were we got we were going to be putting some things like the division of the repo is of SIG work versus things we're putting out for people to consume, like our guidance. So I just don't know where to submit stuff. If you just clarify that. Yeah, I don't contribute. Yeah, and I don't, I don't have an answer for that. I kind of assumed that I was going to put stuff in the, in the repo until officially approved by the TOC. Okay. Or adopted at a SIG meeting and then we would move it to some more official location. But that's fine. Yeah, that that's just, that's just me. I think this needs to be an agenda item for the general SIG meeting. Because I don't necessarily know all these repos. Yeah, that's, that's fine. I'm just at the draft stage for some of my work that goes with that contribution bullet point so I'm just like rearing to put it somewhere and get it out of the Google doc. That's all. Yeah. Cool. So I would like to put my name under how to contribute, I guess. Cool. Okay. Do you want to write the preface? Yeah, the basically just like level setting like what are your goals when you're writing this. Okay, yeah. Okay. So I'm going to sign up for the how to write role definitions with some examples, share a bit of experience doing that. Is there much overlap with any of the other, other working groups or other parts of, of the SIG that I should be aware of for that one. I feel like that might intersect a lot with contributor ladder. Yep. And the contributor growth working group. Yeah, and the contributor growth working group, but I feel like let's just all do the work later. Yeah. If so, does it make sense to have the same people. So you said you'd help out with the contributor ladder. Does it make more sense to have you do the role definitions I could do like a how to do the leadership selection instead. If that's, I think that makes a lot of sense because contributor growth isn't working on that one at all. Yeah. Okay, so I can take the how to do leadership selection. It's a starting point. And because I've been hit deep in this I'm going to be starting out with. Well, actually I want to start out with the more general stuff which is working on the requirement side of things to say what is required for governance documentation, because that's something I actually need to push through the TOC. Because I actually want the CNCF to have a more refined view of what what amount of governance is required at different levels. Because right now basically there's this requirement at the incubating level that you have a governance md file, but no particular requirements and what's in it. And so I want to refine that with the idea that you would have a certain amount of sort of skeletal governance at incubating and then much more mature complete governance system at graduated and the TOC will obviously need to discuss that once I come up with a draft. So that will be the next part that I'm going to take, take on. Okay. So that's a bunch of things and then we can keep working on filling another stuff. The, and we need to generally settle on the with the SIG on on where this is all targeted to live. Which is, is obviously a question. When, when, when we have it complete when we have the, you know, relatively complete and merged with content from the other working groups. I also have some open questions that I need to take up. I'm not sure with who. I guess probably with the TOC about whether or not we should be responsible for providing advice around developing security issue handling guidelines and developing release process documentation. Or whether there's somebody else in the CNCF who's responsible for that there is there's a release process requirement. And for that matter, in my experience, the release process is an expression of de facto governance, because as part of the release process you often have to pick and choose which things actually go into a release. The, and often if that's not documented it results in decisions made by one group being reversed by another. So, okay. Does anybody have anything more to say about that. I had a quick question. This is Jennifer. When I look at the content tracking. I'm not sure I'm new to contributing to this group. One of the things I'm wondering is there something that's going to cover like projects maintenance in terms of like abandonment of a project or killing like not killing a project like graceful shutdown like Is that even on the radar. Is that something that would be covered somewhere here. That would be yeah it actually wasn't something I had on the list. And that would obviously be complicated for a CNCF project. That would be another thing that would need to go to the TOC after we came up with a suggested document. So if you want to add things on that because you want to write them or you already have material for them. Then, then please do put that in a comment and I will add it to the general list. And Paris actually has another one which is communications although I thought communications was elsewhere in our sick Paris. Not necessarily. Okay.  Like best practices for recording meetings and that kind of stuff like I call them the governance transparency vehicles. But the Jennifer's question to I think that actually falls in line with the archiving process that the TOC has, but at the same time I don't know if it's extensive yet because we don't they don't have any projects that have gone through that process. So I don't, I think your efforts could be fruitful there that was kind of my TLDR as well. Okay, so I'm adding these to the general advisory list. Okay. Yeah, and if you think of something later please put it in the comments on the issue and then I'll add it to the list. I mean I'm basically seeing us having a large collection of documents about project governance. The other thing actually whoops the other thing I need to add here is a resource list, because we also want to have a list of external resources, because they're going to be lots of things that we want to point to as general good advice for projects that aren't necessarily going to get copied into our repo for whatever reason, possibly because we don't have access to them. So. Okay, anything else. Cool okay. So the next thing is, I want to report back for anybody. We need to get this in the notes. I want to report back for anybody wasn't able to attend the to see meeting early this morning. So to see meeting early this morning, decided to discuss the maintainer multi organizational requirement. There's a requirement within the CNCF that in order to reach the graduated level, you have to have a maintainer from, you have to have maintainers from more than one organization by which they mean more than one employer. And this has become an issue for some projects that have struggled to attract maintainers projects that were generally originated a single company and have struggled to attract maintainers who don't work for that company for a variety of reasons. The. I so a lot of the discussion ended up setting around right before the meeting. Alexis, we're giving Alexis his last name, but dropped the thing of his suggested sort of work around for this for some of the projects which are struggling, which is an advisory on how to create a steering committee. I as a work around for not having a enough of a variety of code maintainers. The, the to see was generally warm to this idea with guide rails. Because the TOC is main concern with requiring multi organization is that a project not be run for the exclusive benefit of a single company. And by having a steering committee who actually had the ability to selectively override the pool of maintainers, particularly in terms of promotion of new maintainers. That would be one way to address that. The, you can take a look at the. And so that was, that was most of the discussion. I actually expected more discussion with people, theoretically challenging the multi organizational requirement, because there have been people within the CNCF ecosystem, particularly a couple of projects that are single organization right now, who are unhappy with the requirement. Nobody on the call challenge the requirement. They were a lot more focused on, you know, what are work around for projects that are having a lot of trouble fulfilling the requirement, even though they fulfill all the other requirements. One of my thoughts in there was, and I've already requested this from Alexis that we incorporate this, his steering committee advisory document in some form into our own documentation. Because it actually is with some cleanup. A good document for hey, here's how you create a steering committee if you need one in order to fulfill CNCF governance requirements. Yeah, I think it makes sense for that to be under our stuff. Dims I thought you had some thoughts. Sorry, yeah. So, what I'm trying to figure out the threat model. So, or whatever you want to call it. It's, it's, who are we trying to protect against, or what are we trying to protect for by adding the diversity. In the maintenance ship. It's, we are trying to make sure that people are welcoming and, you know, we'll mentor incoming folks and add them. So, when also when they take technical decisions and they think about what to do next, they will do it in an inclusive fashion. So basically, yes, we will end up stripping away all those things because, because of this, and it's, it's going to be the default right people will say, Oh, we started in the sandbox as a single company thing. And there is a clause in here saying, Okay, you can just add a steering committee and add two people from somewhere, you know, outside the project to oversee what is happening here and low and behold. You know, we don't have to try. We don't even have to bother about doing anything else that we need to do to build up a community of on the technical side, not on the user side or, you know, from the outside of the. So that's what I'm worried about. Yeah. Yeah, I heard you saying that in the TOC meeting this morning and I was actually I share some of the same concerns. And one of the things I wanted to get to feel from the TOC is like, are they actually okay with this, because it's obviously different from the previous requirement. And what they've said the previous requirement meant. That said, the reality is that we actually have a number of projects already in the CNCF including graduated projects that have what I call figurehead maintainers. The maintainers who are on the list in order to meet the multi organizational requirement who are not actively contributing or reviewing code. And, you know, and without having like, you know, semi annual in depth audits of how stuff actually gets reviewed and approved within projects. That's the only way to prevent that. And so then the question is, would a project with a steering committee that actually had people from multiple organizations be worse than a project with figurehead maintainers. So basically they'll be moving figurehead maintainers into steering. That's it. Right. And that's one of these. Nothing else is going to happen. Right. What am I comments on the document is, is how do we actually tell them that the steering committee is doing anything. Right. Because a steering committee that is not in any way involved with the project is not actually solving the problem, because you're going to point to steering committee and then they can never meet. You know, or they can meet and the meetings have no content. And, at least with figurehead maintainers I can look at people's GitHub history and see who is not actually doing any coding on the project. And for that matter, the CNCF can check whether or not they actually have rights to merge things. Wait, wait, wait. Can I stop you for one second? People who aren't doing any coding on the project. Maintainers, we want to encourage maintainers who don't just do coding, right. Yeah, well, who do show up to meetings, do project management, contribute to design, but they may not be committing code that often. Right. Yeah. Okay, yes. Good. The, but I think I would say even for those people it's critical that they actually have the physical rights to approve things. They do. Yeah, but you may not be able to look at like a GitHub activity graph to be able to prove it. You may have to look at like agendas and see that they came to the meetings. Yeah. And I think, yeah, and I think part of this then ends up, part of this ends up tying in with dealing with other things like Paris's first question of the, you know, how do you keep the communications open, right. Because if you have a situation where you have these non code maintainers were mainly in the project management side so they're not generating a lot of GitHub content that you could monitor via GitHub. And then the project is not taking minutes for its meetings for like it's, it's, it's a bi-weekly development meeting. Then you have no way to tell whether that person is doing anything at all, except by dropping in and interviewing people, which is very time consuming. So, we need to sort of think about that and I think as dims point out by moving the problem we actually make it harder, right. Because now, for the extra steering committee members, if they don't have direct rights to merge things in the code in the docs in the planning stuff, then it's going to be even harder to tell if they're doing anything. They, they it'll be even easier to create figureheads. And then I went from the opposite side. Okay, fine. Let's have steering members. Let's have, say, seven people in total, five maintainers of the representing company, and two from outside like user groups or whatever, right. Then what are the carrots and sticks they have those two people have over the other steering members and the maintainers to actually get anything done. Right. It's literally, there's zero carrots and zero sticks. So, and the one of the answers that came was, oh, we'll have somebody from the TOC to actually oversee what is happening. Like, how is that going to help like it's not like you will take every small request or an incoming PR back up the chain to the CNC of TOC to adjudicate right. So it's, it's like, fine, we'll have a figurehead, we'll have a figurehead just make it plain that it's a figurehead. Let's not try to say that more than be figureheads, right. The, well, my perspective on this and what I would put into what I would recommend putting into our suggestion for the steering committee work around. If the to see wants to embrace this is that the steering committee must have the ability to appoint maintainers. If they can't do this the entire steering committee is a figurehead as far as I'm concerned. That actually eliminates a lot of the, you know, potential for the steering committee to statutorily be a figurehead now we have the problem of the steering committee members not being at all active. You know, that is, they could have the ability to do that but not exercise it. Right, but the steering committee itself could be outnumbered right the number of people not from the company will be lesser than the people from the company. So it's not like they could have the power that they can't exercise it because there are there's only two people out of seven and they won't be able to. Now that was actually one of Alexis's recommendations that for the steering committee work around. No one organization would be could have a majority of seats. Obviously, if a bunch of those seats are not showing up. Then that doesn't help but yeah. So this kind of like reminds me of like the Apache Software Foundation where the the ASF board can kick out everybody who is maintaining a specific project. Yeah. So that does make me feel better from that sense. But then there the Apache she board is not like the steering committee in the sense that they are overseeing everybody. So in our case it would be the CNC of TOC and not the steering committee itself. Yeah. So then it almost feels like why do we even need the steering committee. Just to see if they could be somebody from the CNC of TOC who's overseeing and they can get the TOC to pull the plug when the time is right. So yeah, that that was the other thing that was going through my mind. Yeah, that just having yeah, the. So one of the things Alexis if you look at the long argument. That we had on the issue. One of the things that Alexis was suggesting actually was active to see oversight. My problem with that is that historically the CNC of TOC has not been very active, and has had difficulty keeping up with merely the project approval workload. And so, I mean, CNCF currently has whatever it is 65 accepted projects. The idea that the TOC would somehow actively be watching these projects for problems. Not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. The, and, and honestly even be able to recognize problems if they saw them. Right. Because like I can tell you, I've been asked to do a review of a couple of projects that the TOC thought were problems. And each of those reviews took me probably an entire day of time. So the other angle that I kind of was talking about in the meeting was like searing is supposed to be non technical, at least on the community side. So on the technical side, who is going to like figure out if the design itself or design changes that are being proposed will actually be, you know, inclusive. And, you know, if it's pluggable, then it's more than one render whatnot, right. So, and if the, if the user committee members on the steering committee feel that it is not inclusive. When will they even know that there is like a design in progress and the design might not be up to, you know, they might not be satisfied with the design. Right. So on the design side, there's going to be still a whole by the time they get to know that there's a feature in progress and there is things might not work the way they would expect and things might be going wrong. It'll be too late, but by the time they raise an alarm. Right. That's the other thing that I was thinking about on the technical side, there is no coverage. There's coverage on the side of like, okay, we are from an organizational point of view, I'm a bank and I'm relying on this software to work and I want to make sure that it works all right and they take our inputs. But then those set of people in the steering will not have visibility into what is happening. Right. So that was the other tack on it. Open design in open track terms. Yeah. The, it's obviously a concern. I mean, for that matter, there's just the concern of the potential dynamic that if you have a, you know, say, a seven member hearing committee, and three members work for the company that employs the majority of maintainers. And those three are all of the technical people on the SC. Then the remaining four are going to tend to believe anything that they say about, hey, what do these API changes mean. I mean, I guess the question is, you know, again, is this a worse situation than for maintainers who don't otherwise qualify for maintainers? Obviously, there's an alternative to all of this, which is the TOC says, hey, until you can attract a real maintainer who does not work for the majority company, you stay in incubating. The end. Yeah, that's a hard call that the TOC doesn't want to make, right? That's the problem. Right. And I'm not going to name any projects, but I would say demonstrably the TOC has already refused to make that call. They have already graduated a number of projects where I can tell you the maintainers for the non-majority employers are not actively involved. So it almost feels like we shouldn't bother with the maintainer diversity at all. It's like, why color over stuff that we want to just do a figurehead over and just take it out, right? I mean, if people don't believe it and they, why pray to a false God, right? Okay, so your general perspective would be that you don't really feel like the steering committee work around actually does anything. Except when it's sincere, you know, because I mean, you can't say on the top end that there is it is completely possible to have a project with a sincere steering committee who's actively involved, that having a steering committee is their way to get input and strategic direction from their end users, which is an idea I really like, you know, and all of those things that you could actually have this. Yeah, it's very easy to game and it's very easy to there's no carrots and no sticks basically. Yeah. That's the problem here. I also tend to believe that projects that have that kind of sincere, sincerely varied steering committee probably already have multiple maintainers working for multiple organizations anyway. If nothing else at least a doc maintainer, you know, even if they don't have a code maintainer, the, because that's one of the other things that I strike here to say, you know, the idea that a project can't even find a doc maintainer from one of their end users strikes me as a little ridiculous. Right. And this is not to take away from the fact that the projects can choose to have steering and they could choose to have steering that is diverse. Right. So if projects want to do that, that's awesome, like, you know, Kate's already does it and other, they can follow the same pattern, but they shouldn't follow that pattern for the diversity sake. Yep. So the other people have thoughts on this. What is the project and get going from incubating the graduating that is so gosh darn important that they that we're bending over backwards to skip. I think key health metrics about the community aspect of the project. Does that make sense. It's marketing, Carolyn. It's marketing. I mean, just getting into Santa sandbox, going from sandbox to incubating. It's all marketing. They, all the companies use this. You know, just getting into CNCF into sandbox, even though we are saying it's not really a full project, people use that for marketing to their employees to their customers. And when they incubate when they reach incubate incubation or graduation, they make a really big deal about it in all their marketing materials and when they talk to customers. It's a really big deal and you know, if they love marketing so much, then why don't they market to their end users and community. I mean, that was a great point. Not even having an end user doc contributor or something like that. Like it's incredibly valuable to your project. Why not take advantage of it. Yeah. I don't get it. I don't understand why we should like. And that is the problem. Right. Why can't we actually dive into these projects where there is a problem currently come up with creative ways to actually do the right things right. Yeah, let's help them. They don't want to be helped. That's the problem here. Yeah. Yeah. And so where that's, yeah, where that's come from is, yeah, something saying an incubating and a big part of the graduated is there's a particular project is actually a couple of projects that are incubating that as code are several years old and actually have commercial adopters and some of those commercial adopters are asking the project leads. Why are you still in incubating. Okay. I mean, another thing I'll say is the multi organization requirement is not necessarily fairly applied across the CNCF. Yeah, the how how diligently it is pursued tends to partly hinge on the project and the majority companies relationship with the various CNCF committees. So the But but the big thing is, you know, is that a lot of these projects feel like hey, you know, code wise the project is mature incubating implies that it's not complete and our users are getting antsy about that. Yeah, okay. And in my case, and one of the things that I've actually brought up to the CEO in a previous meeting is, I, you know, really think we should think about for some of these projects, spinning them off to their own Linux foundation holding area, because for my perspective the CNCF is for common property projects, you know projects that don't belong to a single company, and that if you wanted to belong to a single company you didn't need the CNCF. I, and, you know, and, and, you know, but once they've been, once the IP has been assigned to the CNCF, we can't give it back, legally speaking. The IP is assigned, IP and the code is assigned to Linux foundation, not CNCF. See, Linux foundation, right. Yeah, but the Linux foundation can't give it back. Yeah, exactly right. It needs to live somewhere within the nonprofit arena at that point. But the Linux foundation does have other spin offs that are essentially company controlled. And that could be another one. But the TOC, both this TOC and the previous TOC have been super reluctant to even consider that for any projects. So, I actually kind of want to get a feeling from everybody in the meeting here about whether or not we're okay and obviously I will finesse a write up on this but whether or not we're okay saying hey, on steering committees is super well on steering committees is super welcome because the thing that projects do, but we do not see a steering committee as a legitimate work around for the multi organizational requirement. Is that a statement that that everybody currently in the meeting is is comfortable with Don. Yeah, I would agree with that. Absolutely. Wait, okay, we've got one more person in the meeting is that. Oh, Jennifer. I would agree with it. Okay. Okay. So I will write something and then post it to our slack and tag all of you folks so you can actually look at it before we pass it on to the TOC. Sounds good. Thanks, Josh. Yep. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up and hashing that out and everything else. The so cool. Okay. So, we got a little bit of time left. Does anybody have anything else for governance working group. Nope. Okay. Let me just pub open the issues to see if there's any assigned issues that we have not already discussed to do content tracking. Committer versus maintainer is still open because of contributor growth. We've obviously been addressing this. By the way, this whole discussion we're talking about maintainer. But the one of the things that I've actually recommended in my other documentation around this requirement is that we actually use the term senior leadership group with a bunch of specific requirements attached to that. Because some projects already use the name. I can commit or maintainer to mean something very different from how most of us use it. And we don't want to define nomenclature for projects. One of the things outstanding there is also helping with the end user requirement, which is not a governance requirement so much but doesn't really live anywhere else. The, and I still have that still on me, because I still need to talk to Cheryl about it, since she was not in the to see meeting where we discussed it. Diversity requirement again. Survey is out. But Paris isn't here so I can't ask her about closing the issue. And that is it for our open issues. Okay. Nobody has anything else. That is all of the stuff everybody has content they're working on. I will get back to everybody with the sort of draft letter to the TOC. So you can submit your revisions to it and then we can send it off as governance working group. And the the and then we'll see where it goes from there. Thanks Josh. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Thanks everyone.


Everybody force Jeff and Sean here up in 2023 Bowman draft baseball jumbo and moments best for box number eight random teams. Good luck y'all Let's random in the yoan They nine six and three one two three four five six seven eight and nine So they were a lot of you down to Peter s and the teams nine times one two three four five six seven eight and nine Mets down to Mariners I'd met Eladio with the Mets Douglas W. Orioles Eric E rangers Christopher D. Cubs Jared D. Giants David D. Padres Eric a raise William T. Red Sox Jeremy B. Marlins Joseph S. Astros Brandon H. Rockies William T. Pirates Logan M. Royals Peter S. Braves Eladio with the Cardinals Michael T. Twins Austin M. Angels Charlie C. Yankees Ty W. Blue Jays Matthew S. Nationals O and B. White Sox D. Bax Peter S. Guardians Peter M. Tigers Eladio with Reds Peter M. Phillies Nam Kew Brewers William T. A's Peter M. Dodgers Peter S. Mariners What up, paper? Yes, it's super start now. Yes, it's super All you're gonna do is guess who we think we're hit the one-on-one for and then we be good Watch chat. There's a delay. So watch chat 20 seconds. All right, so let's see it. Let's see the toke super 10 seconds left five seconds left five four three two and one Time is up in chat Fishing out. All right. Once the moves will be the last one Max Clark, Jude. Oh, you got it for us. Yeah, I got it I know you guys are doing that. Sup, Brandon. Sup, Brandon. All right. Here we go Again has to be a bowman's best super fractured. It's a bowman's best super fractured bounty Bowman's best guess super will be for bowman's best Actually, I guess if we had to guess it would be for draft two I just pulled super As well Yeah, the the actual bouncy on your screen is for best that tom brady guys guess why not we'll do I'm telling you right now that tom brady on the previous one wasn't gonna be the best one. It's coming right here All right, red brady. Come on red brady I'm just saying Gonna glow all sin for miami sio bradfield refractor Yeah, the guess is up to 540 Which is nuts, dude. That's just free money. That is free money Just for guessing It's kind of cool. Yeah las Santos refractor typhoid. Although if I'm being honest, I hope that's somebody that's in the break It's it. I hope if someone calls their shot again, right? So that was awesome First one they hit the bounty Had the a's at a story roiz hit it up. He doubled up, dude Got all of it. Love that. Hope that happens again. My god in the factor winnaker And you guess He's got double win So again, you don't have to be in the break and guess but if you are in the break you hit twice That's auto purple. Uh, Andrew pink knee on the first bowman to 250 Montez and pink knee on the refractors light blue jewarski for houston fractors of wood and ingle That is a transformative talent refractor felon celestin. Seattle to 250. It's a cool one. I like those I like the writers of lindsay and aj ewing. I don't like print lines Aqua fuchsia to 199 his hood pull for the Mets That's right, timmy. You gotta put it on the scheme's glass pirates fractors of Picard and cooler A base auto for boston's gonna be in the zanzanatello Red Sox solid one there. Fernandez, Sullivan Check out the website ladensportscards.com. All the breaks are up there. Do you guys think anyone want to talk about something other than super factor bounty? Let's go up to the top. Look at the main break schedule scroll and see what we got popping later Full sellout promo tonight too 50 father's day packs up for grabs five winners you skates 10 ships sealed to them and sell them you can rip them There's jeff he'd rip them. I just rip them fuchsia lunar crater fissure to 199 for the astros Ripping is the only answer. We've got a fully sell out sell out every break. We'll do that refractor spencer jones refractor hillan cambell And also it's gonna fill up so we can get more personal ripping time with jeff uh-oh Just ripping it debut uh-oh There's a few in there already. Let's put some prism in there Just hunt some stroud maybe jackson holiday nolyn mclean Stroud puka I'm going for the kickers tonight kickers.  Do you look at his numbers? They're god awful like there's god kicker Dude his field goal presented was a troll Just look it up later There's not a lot of good kickers that like it's hard to find a good kicker There's a lot of like average kickers It's crazy how the Notre Dame kid walked. He like he literally didn't even play in college learned it and started kicking Dude that's awesome. I got the new swaggy in the office Same shot Maybe some more tape. Do you want to put it on the hat? Need that bass rpa? Heck yeah push it Push it real good hmm This is zoom in on shan's head more with that sign Yes, yeah, I think I lost somewhere Spencer's trash one of one hat. How we looking Sean? You got 43 22 All right, cool. It's getting worse yeah Lunar glow of guanipa for the braves refractor loot kishaw Purple refractor jackson maryl padres out of 250 Fractor arroyo and vrattenberg Dude that should man Fractors of clark and trey morgan Some of them are You just have to get flexible bro and understand got one job just practice. Keep it going Blue wave auto color match for kc is hero. Wyatt. Maybe I'll start trying to kick 68 to 150 Builder Abner and hero Wyatt White blue paper to 499 is subios for the braves Is it too late to sign up for consign on saturday finale of stream white blue rs Yankees or fractors of whorehey and mcgraw A lot less they shift yet brine. I'd email lane I don't think they would have yet, but I would email lane And they can figure it out before Shipping starts tomorrow morning A fusion lunar crater 199 honeyman cardinals But yeah, you should be able to check on fanatics. I have if it shipped yet or not Detmer and bowmeester Thank you, Sean Fractor guttillettas and jaworsky Fractor auto there we go cardinals chase davis. That's out of 199 She's It's a good hit there Can't fish her Water All right, let's get bowman chrome you filling up y'all super factor bounties live in that as well. It's a different one, but it's at 16 to go Someone hit one of those bounties earlier last week. It was like a 375 bounty all fronds Airballed it.  That's that's some serious rust to shake off Maui ahuna first woman auto for the giants Oh Fractures of Mercedes and skeens Collier kefus Yellow Lunar Crater to 75 Gonzalez for Seattle, tiara's and karig Nice, that's Roy woods for five years Live in minnow valley my love my senior year loved it man Langford Fracture of miller for the a's and Santana for the rays Actually went back to the islands to give back and do hitting lessons and put on a camp for all the kids there on the islands just Get it a whole like thing on on the news All right, woman's best cycle back for a week.  There's a bobby quits. Come on now Sit that woman's best super base auto for the reds cam collier Reds always hitting in this collier always Fracture, he sang up for the Mets. Next one be carlos for the Langleers rookie refractor for the a's to wave a vado for the reds refractor lazaro montez Gold lava tommy troy to 75. That's a cool one for the diamondbacks I got 25 hp nice got an auto guillart for the brewers Got to drink more water then nice troy Larte refractor of skeins shellac de green refractor de pala I'm big on collier to you honestly masterpieces rutchman James wood blue refractor rookie out of 150 peguetto for pittsburgh piggie piggie Fractor abrams. What about french? What's up french? Can't do it like sean does Auto for the dodgers dalton rushing Catching prospects in la refractor of j rod Nice to meet you william. My name is j Mini diamond. Oh, here we go real to real corbin carol debex. Let's go He's super slow refractor rookie netto angels Carol slow. Yeah, he's faster than him. He's not that fast. I can go faster backwards Real to real pita lanzo I believe you Get the wand out Green auto out of 99 reiner are you asked for the giants? Fractor rookie michael harris braves shellacked a vote a purple to 250 shaw for the cubs and a cabrera refractor Oh wait, look what happened earlier sean earlier this season. Jesus That's crazy.  No, he doesn't play bebop jaker No 16 to go. Let's get that one filled up y'all bowman chrome you I honestly don't know what bebop is jake was trying to explain it to me. I he told me what the game was I didn't know what the game was exactly you gotta tell me what this is about If it's donnie and like chris and like dealing like yeah, i'm not i'm out Oh french is here sean There we go corbin carol extra Everybody guesses super and then only like six people are talking now. Come on Telling you man This may not keep going if people just guess and don't talk auto for the guardians. Well, i've been francisca ricky refractor riley green for the tigers Riley green Thank y'all for interacting and hanging out refractor jash has i'm joining breaks especially Or would like to get him filled to get him ripping hit people big cards like a blue tom brady Gold wave tommy troy auto superfractor bradfield auto earlier sick That was sick wave of lindor for the meds gold bow beshets Yes, you can chris 50 gold bow refractor for caro. Yeah guys, you can always add insurance after the fact the initial prompt for insurance It's totally optional But you can always find it in merch. Let me find there it is Jordan always says that Say that say that's where our face is Nice jaywalk to 25 rookie mini diamond auto cardinals Let's go jaywalk.  That's going out to I'm trying to read. I can't read though.  I think the blacks coming over good Auto for the royals cate and wallace. What up dan refractor ricky tovar for colorado wise, man What's up dan? How are we doing, bro?  That's that's what we need though. She'll act of solace refractor peña Cole's having a tough stretch of games, man. It's not going well for him. He needs to rip some bangers and come back come in here I sold a peacock pull Anthony All right, let's Ready for a recap here y'all Got mini diamond mclain actual projection gold beshet Carol on the actual projection green refractor purple shaw harris piguetto Masterpieces rutsman mini diamond caro gold lava troy Uh gantala's the 75 honeyman to one at 99 You've got the bios paper hood pulp paper camp fisher lunar crater Tommy hawk autos of cain wallace eddie bel tray. Well, been francisca daniel guillart a dalton russian reiner arias cam collier A mawiyahuna chase davis blue wave wyatt trusser zanatello and pink Now we've got davie mini diamond rookie out in 25 of jordan walker All right, so the cardinals. Thanks again, everybody moving on now to more baseball


Considering the time that we have we're gonna and I would ask the panelists to take notes because I'm gonna combine the questions We're not going one by one, but we're gonna combine them. So microphones are on standby. I believe Steve why don't you go first? I'm gonna come to all of you And we're gonna collect the questions and then I'm gonna throw it back for one last Q&A session with your audience Steve go ahead Ali Thank you, and thank you to the panel, which has been very good by the way I do want to throw it more to the future The war will eventually end it will end in negotiations, but there is already disagreement In the alliance about how we treat Russia afterward Do we have European security against Russia? Do we have European security with Russia? Do we have European security with America? Though worried about China the big question is What happens to Russia after this war, which is a much more interesting question, frankly Will it be a new time of troubles? Will it disintegrate? What will that do? But mostly I just want to get people to talk about how you look at Russia post-conflict in relationship to European Security and what kind of security guarantees can you provide Ukraine if as Zaki lady says outside NATO. I don't think they exist myself But perhaps I'm wrong. Thank you. Thank you Steve a question We'll be happy to incorporate What is security with Russia look like afterwards? How does Russia look? What does Russia look like the microphone thing is being passed We're moving to both sides. Go ahead. Yes. Yes. Go ahead. Please. Hello. Thank you for this fascinating panel Two quick questions. The first one has been Not on the remark of Mr. Zaki lady on the European rearmament Is it really credible? On the side of the motion that we have today because we can see that Both or not so much there is no future in our relationship to Russia without a military force in Europe Very powerful. So there are a lot of emotions, but will it last as far as the budget is concerned? That we have refused until now to devote to these subjects that will have to be devoted and second question very quickly The European Union, the integration of Ukraine in the European Union. This subject has not been mentioned. We have admitted it We all know what the reality of the economy is and the Ukrainian institutions We are engaged in a political process that we can see that it is absolutely Uncontournable but is it realizable or this integration Part of inevitably a vision of the long-term means of our relationship with the east of Europe Thank you so much. Microphone is coming all the way. I'm gonna get everyone in. I promise go ahead Yes, I have a marathon Two quick comments and a question there's unanimity in Europe in Supporting Ukraine and this will be helped by the good qualification of events I would react to the fact that events have been qualified by one of the members of the panel as Genocide for example, is there war crime on the scene? Last yes, obviously and this has to be condemned. Is there humanitarian crime This can be discussed. Is there a genocide? I do not believe that qualifying events this way helps supporting European unanimity In the situation. This is the first point the second comment when you alluded to Solzhenitsyn if I may Solzhenitsyn never denied the existence of Ukraine as an independent state He just said that probably this would be a difficult period that there might be war and that he would oppose His sons Potspating in the war that is what he precisely wrote if I may say the question is particularly from a French point of view But it goes beyond as the panel emphasised the war has made the penny about NATO drop for the French for example NATO was very often denied French politicians Talking about defense and defense in Europe very seldom Spoked about NATO just as if France did not belong to NATO actually and now the penny has dropped And I believe this is a good thing but as to Europe and Ebert Hedrin emphasised that the panel is supposed to be about the future I would ask the panel how the Value of the present situation for example when you've got a Franco-German cooperation on SCAF and Just about the same time an important announcement is made on this. You've got the Italian British Japanese Corporation on a competitor to SCAF for example, so Europe seems to be United Presently, but if we look to the future the division in Europe on industrial issues and others regarding security Seem to be just as strong as ever Thank you. Thank you so much moving the mic along. Yes, please go ahead Don't sit here certainly La Russie qui a dressé Lucraine va sortir affable même si elle est européenne de culture Yen Yoran rupture de confiance entre l'Europe et la Russie et la Russie De plus en plus va se déployer vers l'Asie l'Inde et la Chine et all les autres Allons pour moi est ce que ça n'est pas une opportunité bien sûr pour l'Europe d'une part de s'intégrer de se renforcer d'avoir une politique stratégie commune etc mais d'autre part surtout pour moi De s'intéresser à son autre géographie c'est à dire le sud à la nécessité pour l'Europe de se reconcilier avec le monde arabe et avec l'Afrique c'est avec ce monde qu'elle va pouvoir même gérer peut-être sa transition toutes ces transitions les transitions énergétiques entre autres en dehors du fait qu'elle a intérêt que le problème du développement et de la méditerranée soit résolu Merci Thank you so much. I think the young gentleman right next to you Had a question we'll get him the microphone. Can I see a show of hands? Who am I missing here? Right here in the first row and then the young gentleman.  Yeah, while she's getting the mic. Thank you very much I think it's quite telling to see that only French speakers are talking about European defense and Independence indeed and it's quite disheartening actually to see that Germany for instance is pouring billions of dollars into American fighter jets although other opportunities are available in Europe Not just mentioning the Rafa brain in fact is it just because we listen too much to the goal that as French people We dream of a European independence or does it translate into English as well? That's probably a question for the foreign speakers here in the panel. Thank you very much Thank you so much. Go ahead, Daniel. I have mostly a comment more than a question and I want to make an analogy between Germany and Russia for following first world war and Germany when Germany was humiliated and what's plunging in hyperinflation This led to the rise of a belligerent figure like Hitler where and after a second world war When Germany was treated with respect and we had the Marshall plan We had a peaceful prosperous Germany So mean this is a great panel, but I don't see like the Russian perspective I speak a lot with Russians and they have a lot of grief in says they were promised if you talk to a Russian They he will tell you Gorbachev was promised the moon You know that if he will gonna dissolve the Soviet Union We're gonna have prosperity and but all this resulted in sweet lies So all what I'm saying. I hope that Ukraine will win, but I will slow. I hope Chat Russia after that I go back to Steven a question will be treated with respect with humility Just in order not to have Putin 2.0 because a defeat on Russia doesn't mean it's gonna become more peaceful. Thank you Thank you so much. I believe unless I have overlooked anything I believe we have everyone here. Everybody will get their share being mindful of the time of course Peter why don't you kick it off and then we'll we'll get everyone in here for the one last round? So thanks. Thanks for that really a great set of questions. I'm at this and comment So I'm trying to pick some of them and of course those pertaining everybody everybody pertain The first question the last one were actually referring to how to deal with Russia after the wall once it's over So what's the future been our relation with that with that huge country with these many many millions of Russians? But look, I mean Russia is a is a is a proud nation with a lot of history tradition and we have good relationships before that but matter of fact is the Change-through-trade concept approach that we tried with the hand reached out didn't work out Putin's Russia betrayed the world and They were like free riding on that. Yes There were stupid mistakes and that we had been alluded to earlier that we did especially in Germany to Increase our dependency especially when it comes to to Russian all-in-guess So I mean obviously there needs to be a future Relationship with Russia this the country and its people especially cannot be ignored We need to have something I hate to say I had to use that that that term But for lack of a better one is we need something like an off-ramp, and I'm not talking to With regard to Vladimir Putin, but for the nation for the country for the people of Russia which I have respect for But you know, it's way too early and now I try to connect that with the the first question with it with the last one This is absolutely not the time to talk about Respect treat, you know respectful treatment of Russia they are the aggressors and Russia is you know in the beginning we talked about In the beginning of the war we talked about well, it's it's Putin's war But as has been said on the panel earlier It's not only Putin's war. He gets a lot of support. It's Russia against Ukraine and the rest of the world Basically, so I think we should not give I would totally disagree to give Russia any representative of Russia a platform on this conference or any other At this point in time to you know lobby for themselves they have to first stop that war and Then then we could talk about right respectful treatment of About an off-ramp and but all else stop that war and then it's only the time to do that And I would there was enough there was a there was a question of a comment with regard to rearmament of Europe if that would be realistic and taking into account the The defense investment pledge that which means that by the time of 2024 NATO member states should increase their budget Defense budget To 2% at least of GDP, you know It is you know being being from Germany a German parliamentarian There was a lot of things that we did not do in the past especially during the term of President Donald Trump. We were heavily criticized by not doing enough and On the merits. He was right, but just the style was not really good We increase our defense bodies budgets over those past several years tremendously tremendously really by by at least 50% and we are stepping up to that and I We are fully committed to reach that 2% goal and keep that German chancellor Who's not from my party, but during his speech that I mentioned early on the 27th of February Said very clearly very clearly from now on each and every year Germany will spend 2% of its GDP just for defense For for the defense budget. So from my perspective and from a German perspective Let there be no doubt that we will live up to our commitments that we met Also for our own security interest, but also as a commitment As a return to our partners with a NATO as a reliable partner and it's very clear from your words That's obviously this goes beyond a party being in power or in opposition. This is a unified German position stands and stern and frank words about Russia there Bogdan everybody is gonna chime in here before we wrap up Clitch go ahead some of the questions Steve frankly speaking There was a great wisdom after the Second World War That was focused in one sentence Beginning with keeping Americans in I would say that because we witness right now the first full-scale war in Europe after 1949 We should refer to this a wording and my very short Answer for your question would be to keep Americans in Russians down and Make the European Union more stronger Let's think in those categories secondly When you mentioned Sadly about the about the necessity of reinforcement of the European Pilar within NATO I Keep in mind the famous concept of European security and defense identity ESDI That according to my understanding of the history is completely outdated Because after a ESDI was put aside There was a great beginning of European security and defense policy once again Began in 1998 after the meeting of Tony Blair and Jaczy Huck and now we have at our disposal within the European Union common security and defense policy with Plenty of instruments several Tools that can be used in a variety of situations in variety of options The problem is still with With with funding those tools and with from time to time the lack of political will to use them if we use Everything that was included into the Lisbon Treaty all our achievements after 2017 European Defense Fund Mechanism Cart and other other Tools CDA we will be able to be much more effective by the European Union then Concentrating on reinforcement of the European pillar within NATO I don't want to under undermine the necessity of Let's say better Involvement of European partners within NATO I'm in favor of reinforcement of CSDP within European Union and better collaboration between NATO and the European Union in the sense of both declarations from 2016 and from 2018 that created a new framework for the cooperation between those two organizations As for the genocide We discussed that in Europe If what we witness in Ukraine is or is not genocide. I'm I'm convinced That theoretically and practically in several places in Ukraine. We observe genocide And when you go to Borodianca, for example in and in this small city, you see five buildings three of them were hit Because they were of how to say in English Bet on pieces, you know and those pieces, you know were easier to destroy and Those who were built that were built of bricks were not destroyed was not were not a hit because of This first category of buildings when heated were easier to murder More people inside. Is it a genocide or not? Is it only a war crime or not? It is a complex extermination of the nation It is an ideology of the extermination of the nation theoretically and Practically and let's not forget about that but even when we don't If there are controversies concerning that there is one crime That is not assessed and that should be tried by the special tribunal and this is the time the crime of aggression That's why together with my colleagues from various parliaments. I mean the chiefs of Foreign affairs and European Union committees We call on European governments to create the special tribunal to assess the crime of Aggression by Vladimir Putin and his inner circle. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much some of the questions were addressed to you directly and President I'm gonna come to you of course as well as I will to Zaki being mindful of the time go ahead The last question Concerned on the first question the future I think it was Steve against or with the russia the spirit of defense has been awakened in Europe Parputin and so the answer is obviously against the russia So the defense of Europe is awakened in the framework of the time Parputin against the russia He will come maybe a moment for certainly a moment but I don't know when in a certain time he will have to rethink The security with the russia as a neighbor and I hope that at that moment The occident will raise its maniacism which is fundamental in the occident to go to the same audacity the same intelligence the same strategic efficiency strategic that the great American leaders of the time of the Cold War Before the time of triumphalism But it's not for now It's after after tomorrow. I don't know when so first against then after I don't say what I want I say what I analyze not a point that in my opinion in terms of European pillars since Zaki used the expression It's back It's not an opportunity now. It's a question that will be asked after when the Europeans will ask questions about the strength and the durability of the American commitment That's the first question but you have to work on it There are elements there are procedures there are tools but I speak mentally We can see what the European opinion is today and this round table shows it by the way Sur la question de fatale ouel al ou opportunité pour l'Europe de s'intéresser au sud en reprenant le l'ancien langage je ne le sens je le souhaite énormément et je ne le sens pas du tout les européens sont pas du tout dans cette phase ils sont complètement réoccidentalisé à l'ancienne à cause des décisions aberrondes de poutine mais c'est comme ça ils n'ont pas la capacité ils peuvent même pas l'imaginer et comme ils sont donc redevenus maniché un suite à l'agression de poutine ils sont pas capable d'imaginer par rapport au 40 pays qui n'ont pas condamné la Russie alors que la question est évidente 40 pays représentant 60% de l'humanité ils sont pas capable d'imaginer une politique correspondant à cette à cette question par rapport au nouveau non aligné je pense qu'il le faudrait mais ils vont pas réagir comme ça ils ont essayé de harceler les non alignés d'au reproche moro juridique politique mais je ne crois pas que l'Europe d'aujourd'hui au sein de laquelle vers une bataille d'influence de main entre polon, ukraine, france, alemane etc. et tous les autres je crois pas qu'elles soient capables de penser cette politique là et à mon avis ça va être une nouvelle occasion stratégiquement qu'est je regrette d'avoir à dire ça mais c'est comme ça que je sens les choses en dépit des efforts énormes de beaucoup d'europeans je regrette d'avoir à dire ça Thank you President Alvector your final remarks and then Mr. Zaki you're gonna get the final word. Yeah, thank you very much You know I think since the start of this war millions of Russian people actually protested against this war You know Putin and Russian people are two different things also with the start of this war Putin brought big loss in Russia economic loss military loss most importantly confidence loss in Russia and that's very bad thing also one thing I would like to brought to in light because you know that mobilization Russian mobilization Are now more focused there are more forceful mobilization for ethnic minorities in Russia disproportionate ethnic minorities are mobilized to the war in Russia most of them originally origin from the Mongol decisions, you know Buryats Kalmyk and others mobilized this proportionately To this war putting is killing Ukrainians in Ukraine, but in Russia putting is Killing ethnic minorities in Russia putting is using ethnic minorities like a cannon fodder We have to pay to this attention. This is very very very important issue also With the start of mobilization We opened our border to the ethnic minorities to the people from Russia to Mongolia. We have big border with Russia We received thousands of people from Russia and I think if there is one less man with gun against Ukraine I think that's also great contribution for the peace in Russia and after this war there will be big Kind of the development and the big change gonna be in Russia And I think that's still happening in a mindset of people not only outside of Russia also inside of Russia You know to be part of the Russia or how to how to deal with these Consequences of war and that that is indeed the the very important questions They've learned it to it of course not only what the future of the European Union will look like but what the future of Russia Will look like once this war is over on the last point on European Union I think European Union is greatest project which we have our humanity I think after war this is the test for European Union I think after this war European Union will be more united more stronger and Also other parts of world should follow the suit for example in Asia We have a 48 United Nations members. We have not such establishment like in Europe for example now Myself and other people are Contemplating idea to put kind of the Council of Asia idea, you know How how about how how to find kind of consolidation in Asia in Europe? There are almost Yeah, 50 years that consolidation and it will be more stronger So Europe will be more stronger isn't outside a perspective something exactly lady that I'm sure you Would attest to take it away. I've made my first presentation in English for the sake of Frank O'Fony, I will give my answers in French Bon sur la Russie sur la Russie l'avenir de la Russie la l'avenir de la Russie il dépend d'abord de la Russie Il dépend d'abord de la Russie Fondamentalement quel est le problème de la Russie c'est le renoncements à son identité impérial au profit d'une identité plus national Je vous invite si vous l'avez pas fait à lire un article Remarkable qui a été écrit à plus de 20 ans par un ar russe qui s'appelait Alexander Liebed dans lequel il a clairement posé les termes de l'avenir de la Russie entre une identité national déterminé par les frontières de la fédération russe et une identité impérial Tant que la Russie tant que la Russie ne fera pas ce travail de rupture Elle aura des problèmes et nous aurons des problèmes avec elle alors on va me dire mais c'est très difficile Mais oui c'est très difficile mais oui c'est très difficile moi je discute avec mon avec borrel tous les jours de ces questions et il me dit tu sais pour l'espagne la perte de cuba a été une terrible tragédie mais oui mais oui La perte de l'Algérie a été pour la France aussi une tragédie Mais l'Espagne comme la France sans son sorti en renonçant à leur projet impérial il faudra bien qu'un jour la Russie Fasse cet effort qu'elle n'a pas réussi à faire Probablement probablement à cause de la nature de son régime et de toute façon il n'y a pas que l'Ukraine Il y a ce qui se passe en Asie centrale où on voit très très bien la volonté de de sortir de l'orbitrusse peut-être pour rentrer dans l'orbite chinoise c'est pas si ils gagneront au change enfin bon c'est C'est la dynamique donc c'est le passage d'une identité impérial à une identité national Bon pour ce qui est de la défense européenne Ecoutez moi je reviens de Washington où nous avons tous les ans un dialogue entre l'Union européenne et les États-Unis sur la Chine au plus haut niveau Américains et très clairement très clairement les américains nous disent Il faut que vous consentiez un effort militaire beaucoup plus important que vous soyez beaucoup plus autonome car c'est vrai que pour nous nous allons et nous avons D'autres priorités donc c'est pas être contre l'OTAN c'est pas contre les États-Unis avec lesquels fondamentalement nous avons les mêmes valeurs quoi qu'on en dise mais l'Europe qu'on le veuille ou non devra être la garant de sa sécurité avec le soutien des États-Unis et heureusement d'ailleurs puisqu'aujourd'hui et le chef d'état-major français l'a dit que s'il y avait aujourd'hui une guerre de haute intensité l'armée française qui est la plus puissante d'Europe ne tiendrait pas plus de dix jours bon donc le soutien américain il est absolument essentiel mais quand moi je parle d'autonomie ou de responsabilité stratégique j'ai en tête et je pense que nous sommes certains en voie en tête une idée qui consiste à dire que il faut que nous apprenions à penser par nous-mêmes notre propre avenir notre propre sécurité c'est pas contre les américains pas contre les états-unis mais penser par nous-mêmes parce que personne ne pensera à nous-mêmes à notre place et si on le fait c'est pas pour la bonne pause bien 3e point unfortunately we have to wrap up so we can wrap up the session mais inimaginable destiné à rendre l'Europe responsable de la crise alimentaire bon qu'est-ce que nous avons fait le représentant il a envoyé une lettre à au cinquante-deux ministres africains des averses étrangères dans lequel il leur a expliqué que les céréales n'étaient absolument pas couverts par les sanctions et il leur a dit si vous avez des problèmes notamment de over-compliance qui se pose adressez-vous à nous nous avons ouvert une ligne une hotline et nous avons réglé un certain nombre de problèmes mais on peut pas on peut pas accepter l'idée qu'un ministre je ne serai pas africain disent à Borel ce sont les sanctions qui sont responsables de la crise et quand on lui a dit qui est responsable qui vous a dit ça il nous dit ses poutines voilà thank you so much ladies and gentlemen the future of Europe and European security after Ukraine I think I speak for all when I say this is subject matter we could sit here until 8 p.m. and probably still not have covered all aspects but I think you would agree that this this panel in a very splendid manner managed to give us a very content rich debate which I'm sure will also be used for the discussion with Foreign Minister Kuleba later on throughout the day and the 8 a.m. session on any given day song name is never an easy task so just for that please join me in thanking this wonderful panel thank you so much


Alhamdulillah, we thank Allah SWT for His infinite blessings. I've been reflecting on this for a few of the khutbahs that I've been given and for me, I think it is a great place to start. When we think about the verse, that if you were to enumerate the boundings and the blessings of Allah SWT, that you would never be able to count them. And we can think of many blessings, but at times I feel that we overlook one of the greatest blessings, which is this blessing of life. That He SWT, in His infinite mercy, in His infinite rahmah, in His irada, in His qudra, in His will, has brought us from a state of non-existence into a state of existence. In Surah Al-Insan, Allah SWT mentions, Has there not come a time among human beings when He was not even a thing mentioned, where you and I were not even a thing mentioned? But from the will of Allah SWT, He has brought us into a state of existence. I was listening to a lecture the other day. In the scholar, she said that statisticians had created an algorithm in which they calculated what was the statistical percentage that a human being would be born in the time that they are born, which is right now, with the DNA that they are born with. And she said that the calculation was 400 trillion to one, that it's a 400 trillion to one chance that you are born in the time that you are born in right now. And if you were to enumerate the bounties of your Lord, you would not be able to enumerate them, bringing us from a state of non-existence into a state of existence. How could it be that this is just some random chance that we are here? What I look at that is the miraculous nature of Allah SWT's desire for each and every single one of us to be here at this time. Then I thought to myself, how could they even calculate 400 trillion to one? Because that means that they would have to have had determined every single possibility that brought my parents together. And brought their parents together. And brought their parents together. And the circumstances that prevented the things for them from meeting other people. Only Allah SWT can determine this. What I take from it is that each and every single one of us is a miracle sitting here right now. From the desire of Allah SWT and we should not think of ourselves of anything other than that, of that miraculous nature. And then as I said from the mercy of Allah SWT that we are not running around in this world trying to figure out why we are here asking that question. Who is my Lord? What is my purpose? Where am I going? That He, Alhamdulillah, by blessing us with Islam has given us a path to answer those questions. Has given us a messenger, SAW, to show us in the human form that way to His pleasure, SAW. And as we begin to think about things in this manner then perhaps we will see ourselves in our relationship towards Allah SWT in a different meaning. There is a lot to deal with right now. We understand this and we know this. This pressures both internally and externally with regard to Muslims. But the reality is the state in which we exist is left up to us. What we determine it to be is what it will be and what do I mean by that? What I mean by that is the incredible opportunity that each and every single one of us is given by Allah SWT as mentioned in the Hadith Qudsi. As short perhaps as this hadith may sound it is incredibly profound. That regardless and irrespective of whatever the situation is outward, whatever it seems like is happening on the manifest there is the reality of Al Haq Allah SWT. And he says in that hadith that I am as my servant thinks I am. I am as my servant thinks I am. The oneness for happiness and joy is on us. Allah SWT has already created us and guided us and given us Islam and given us iman to act upon it and then allowed us to make the choice of how we will feel. Of how we will take in all of this ebb and flow that we have seen historically happening time and time and time again. Yes these are difficult times but the ummah has passed through difficult times. One million people or I'm sorry it said that there were yes a million people killed in a week when Baghdad was raised to the ground. In a week that's without the type of technology that exists today for how human lives are taken. Can you imagine that? So the ummah has been through dark times. This nation has been through dark times. But the determinant is with us of how we will respond to that. And I will respond to that and I will be as incredibly liberating. It's incredibly liberating. And then the fight is all of those external factors that will prevent us from having the phalaah that Allah SWT talks about. Having the joy that Allah SWT wants to talk about. That Allah SWT mentioned. Come to success, come to success. Alhamdulillah we heed to that call coming here and we thank Allah SWT for that. We thank Allah SWT for that. I just want to share a few notes with you. A few thoughts of something that I was talking with one of the faculty members. One of the Sheikh Abdullah, Abdul Hamid. We are talking about the zikr. The zikr that we read after the Salat. So there are many of Qar. There are many forms of zikr that we read after the Salat. But one that is mentioned is that we read Subhan Allah 33 times. Alhamdulillah 33 times. And Allah Akbar 34 times at the end of a Salat. And we know this. And we do this. But in my opinion he had an incredible insight into something. He said why did Allah SWT teach the Prophet SAW to read them in this order? Why the Subhan Allah first? And what he shared with me in my opinion is something that is profound. Insha Allah we will find meaning in it. He said that the Subhan Allah coming first is this idea that when we look out into the creation of Allah SWT, we are absolutely in a state of astonishment. And we are bewildered by it. Subhan Allah. When we look at these mountains or rivers or whatever it is that we see in this world, we look at it on one level and we say Subhan Allah we're bewildered by it. But then there's another level. And that second level is a level of appreciation. Alhamdulillah. So now I look at that same thing. And I look at that river and I say Alhamdulillah for that river that is flowing, that is bringing the aquifer so that we can have water so that it will have grass, so that it will eat the cows, will eat the grass so that I can have it. I understand this whole cycle now in a different way. So now when I look at that river and it went from Subhan Allah, from bewilderment and astonishment, it now comes to appreciation. And what does Allah SWT say about appreciation? And when you show appreciation and gratitude to what I have given you, then I will increase you.  But what we're saying is no, continue. Go further. Go into a state of hamd and go into a state which He said the last and final state is what? Allahu Akbar. Complete celebration. Complete celebration. So let's talk about very briefly each one of these points here. Subhan Allah. It comes in verses of the Qur'an. Ibn Taymiyyah says that the command to glorify Allah by saying Subhan Allah also implies declaring Him to be above every fault in shortcoming and affirming the attributes of perfection to Him. Declaring Him to be above any fault and venerating Him. Sabbih. This means that Allah is free from all faults. That's the glorification of Allah, which we do not prescribe to anybody. Which we do not prescribe to anybody. And if you look at this, the first time that we see the Subhanaka that comes in the Qur'an is when the angels are responding to Allah in the challenge that Allah swt puts out to them when He says that He has given Adam the names of all things. When He has given Adam the names of all things. And then He says to the Malayka, Inform me. أم بيوني بأسماء هؤلاء إن كنتم صادقين. Tell me the names of these things. Tell me the names of these things if it is true that you are informed of these things. When the Malayka say, قَالُوا سُبَحَانَكَ لَا إِنْ مَلَنَا إِلَّ مَا عَلَمْتَنَا إِنَّكَ عَنْتَا إِنَّكَ عَنْتَنْ عَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمِ العَلِيمِ الْحَكِيمِ The all-knowing and the wise. The all-knowing and the wise. And what did the angels say to Allah swt, they said, Glory be to you. We have no knowledge except for that which you have taught us. But the initial response is سُبَحَانَكَ. That's the point that I want to make. Their initial response is سُبَحَانَكَ. And then again, when do we find it? اللذين يذكرون الله قِيَامًا قُعُوُرًا وَعَلَا جُنُوبِهِمْ We are thinking about the creation of the heavens and the earth. Our Lord did not create this. Those that glorify or make the Zikr of Allah swt قِيَامًا وَقُعُوُرًا and standing up or on their sides or lying down meaning that the scholars said, if there is no other state that a person can be in, either you're standing up or you're reclining or you're lying down unless you're able to levitate or something like that but that's another tefsir. But these are the states meaning that in all of those states that's when a person is remembering Allah swt in all of those states. And what do they do? Thinking about, contemplating about this world contemplating about it, thinking about it and using it as a means to increase them in their Iman and what's the next thing that it said مَا خَلَقْتَ هَذَ بَالْتِلَنْ You have not created this in jest you have not created this in play, Subhanak Subhanak glory to you So we're again at this state of bewilderment that we're just astonished by the creative majesty of Allah swt Masha'Allah And then this ayah moving now into the Hamd It's a longer ayah and I'll read just the last part of it when it's talking about people of the inhabitants of Jannah, the Hamd So Hamd now is what as we said Hamd is the praise, the showing gratitude to Allah swt This Hamd So first we have this bewilderment and then we have this appreciation if you will Appreciation for all things that are given to us وقالوا الحمد لله الذي هدانا لهذا ما كن لنهدري لولا أن هدان الله لقد جاءت رسول ربنا بالحق ونود أن تلكم الجنة أورثتموها بما كنتم تعملون That Allah swt mentions here that the inhabitants of Jannah will say الحمد لله الذي هدانا لهذا وما كن لنهدري لولا أن هدان الله The first thing that the Alhamdulillah All praise the appreciation to Allah swt Who has guided us to this This meaning Al Islam And we will not be guided if he did not guide us So showing appreciation not just for the things that we have That's a material level And perhaps you've heard me say this before The difference between a material view And a material world And the view in the spiritual world is like this A material reality is a thing that I am this physical being That contains a soul So I look at all things in a material plane But the spiritual view is to look at the reality That I am a soul which is contained in this body And now I will look at things spiritually The physical things are only secondary But the soul is given the primacy The soul is given the primacy The spiritual reality is given the primacy Because it's not just about things Let's look at this du'a Beautiful du'a of the Prophet All of the du'a of the Prophet S.A.W. are beautiful But let's look at this one in particular The du'a that he reads when he gets up to Hajj When he gets up for the night prayer We'll read it in Arabic first And then I'll read the translation after He says Rabelabad O Allah to you is all the praise ووعدك الحق وليكائق الحق وقولك الحق وجنة الحق ونار الحق ونبيون الحق ومحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم قلحق وسعاد حق والحق اللهم لك أسلمتوا وبك آمنتوا وعليكتوا وكالتوا وإليك أن ابتوا وبك الخاصمتوا وإليك حكمتوا فغفل لي ما تقدمتوا واخرتوا and it continues on to the end the first thing he does when he's getting up and making these duas to Allah it's all about praise it's all about praise but it's not about praise for material things it's orienting us to the Akhira that's what he is constantly doing he's constantly orienting us to the Akhira over and over and over again when he gets up the first thing he says all praise us for you you are the possessor of the heavens and the earth and whatever is in them and all praise is for you are the possessor of the heavens and the earth and whatever is in them and all praise is for you are the light of the heavens and the earth and all that is in them all praise is for you you are the king of the heavens and the earth and all praise is for you are the truth and you are the truth and your promise is truth the meeting with you is truth the word is truth paradise is truth hell is truth the prophets are truth and Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam's truth, I surrender my will to you and I believe in you. That's that, that's that hamd. That's an appreciation that he has guided us to all of this. So when we sit after that salat, it is not just something as simple as alhamdulillah or subhanallah wa alhamdulillah wa Allahu akbar. Let's look at them at a deeper level. What is that thing that I'm saying Subhanaka for right now when I'm making this 33 times? What are 33 things that I can think of right now in my life that I'm saying Subhanaka for? What are 33 things in my life that I'm saying alhamdulillah for? What are those things for that glass of water that has quenched my thirst all the way through this home that I've got to the children that I have, the life that I have, this degree that I have, for the future that I have and for the fact that you have put me in the ummah of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam where Musa alaihi wa sallam and the B that a quarter of the prophet, a quarter of the Qur'an is mentioned about, a quarter of the Qur'an is written about Musa alaihi sallam that he asks Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala when he sees the reward of the ummah of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam the ummah that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has brought you and I to alhamdulillah he asks Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to be a member of the ummah. What did I do? What did I do to receive that honor that a prophet such as Musa, Kallam Allahu Musa tekliban who Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has spoken to, asks Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to be in the ummah and Allah chose you. And Allah chose you. Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah. Ilahi illa Allah wa shar'u anna Sayyidina wa Habibina mula anna Sayyidina Muhammadin wa la alihi wa sahbihi wa sallam. Al-ibad Allah, wa dhikru kummi taq'u Allahi subhanahu wa ta'ala. Wa dhikru kummi kawlihi Sayyidina Muhammadin sallallahu alaihi wa alaihi wa sallam haith yakul it taq'u Allah haith ma kuntum. Fear Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wherever you are. Wa dhikru kummi kawlihi Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Wa dhikru kummi sharifim mekan mustafa sallallahu alaihi wa la alihi wa sahbihi wa sallam haith yakul it taq'u Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala fi l-Quran kireem. Inna Allah wa mada'ikatuhu yusalluna ala nabi. Ya ayyuhal ladina aminu sallahu alaihi wa sallim utasneema. Allahumma salli wa sallam wa barik'a ala Sayyidina Muhammad wa ala ala Sayyidina Muhammad. Kama barrakta wa sallaita ala Sayyidina Ibrahim wa ala Sayyidina Ibrahim. Inna ke anta hameedum majeed. Alhamdulillah. From that astonishment and bewilderment to the maqam of appreciation we then find ourselves with Allahu Akbar in the maqam, in the station of celebration. When does this Allahu Akbar something that we are ordered to do? When does it happen? Happens at the eid. It happens in the eid khutba. It doesn't happen in this khutba. We have the takbirats of the eid. Why do we have the takbirats of the eid? Because it is a celebration for something that we could only dream of. A celebration that after the arafah, after the hujjaj have left the arafah that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala never will turn away the dua of the supplicator. So all of the supplications that people have been asking for all of the supplications that the people have been asking for all of the desires that they had to be forgiven of their sins that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has forgiven them. So what is the command there to do? It's to celebrate. How do we celebrate? And the shame of it, the shame in our day and age is how this beautiful celebration is being twisted and being used to take innocent lives. The beauty lies in the celebration of the ridh law of the pleasure of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and nothing else. As much as people want to claim it, it remains true to its essence. Allah is the greatest. And again just a few or an ayat, the ayat that we know about Ramadan So this ayat and it continues and it goes on here this month of Ramadan it is at the end. It's this last part right here and that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala doesn't want to make things difficult for you and he wants you to complete the number of days it's talking about the days that you would have been fasting he doesn't want to make things difficult to you he wants you to complete these days and that with that completion of the Ramadan that you magnify here or you celebrate Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala i.e. by saying the takbirs for having been guided so that we can be grateful to him subhanahu wa ta'ala that's that reality. That's that reality. And then again connected with the eid with the slaughter the sacrifice of that lamb that happens What does Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala say? Again here in closing it is neither their meat on that sacrifice it is not this physical act of sacrificing but the act of taqwa that we would sacrifice our wealth and our time and following in the way of our father ibrahim and our prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam that we would sacrifice for the sake of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala but as he said it's not the meat it's not the blood that reaches Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala it's the taqwa in our hearts and no one can judge us on that and no one knows what it is no one knows what that reality is it's a secret between the abd and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala it's a secret between the servant and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala we ask Allah to make us of the muhlisin and what does he say here and like that he has allowed these animals to be subjugated by you so that you will glorify Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala so that you will celebrate Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala for what he has guided you to for what he has guided you to may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala give us the reality of the celebration of Allahu akbar may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala allow our astonishment and bewilderment of him be turned into a beautiful means of appreciation Allahumma rahmah al mu'mineen wal mu'minat al muslimin wal muslimat al ahya'i minhum wal amwati ya rahmah al rahimin Allahumma ifta'a alayna fathan qareeban mubinan wasyaan fathan yulik bi karamika wal rahmatika ya rahmah al rahimin Allahumma kun ma'ana wal ati kun alayna abudan ya rabbil alameen Allahumma ridn al adinik raddan jameelan ya rabbil alameen Allahumma man yureen khayr la hadi umati muhammadiya fa wa fiql al kuli khayr wa man yureen ghayr al daalik fa khudhu aqt al azeez al muqtala ya rabbil alameen Allahumma arhamna fawq al ard wa taht al ard wa yawman akum bayni yadeik ya rabbil alameen Allahumma nawwe kaburana wa kulubna bil quran al kareem wa krimna bitilawati kitabika anna laywa atraaf al nahar ya rabbil alameen Allahumma warza Allahumma warza ankhul faira shidin abibakr al umar wa oothman wa alayh wal hasim wal hussein wal fahdim al zahra wal azwaj al nabi sallallahu alayhi wa ala alayhi wa sahbihi wa sallam tahrirat umahad al mu'mineen wa an sahabati ajma'een wa tabi'een wa tabi'een bi ihsan illa yawm ad-din wa la hawla wa la quwwata illa billahi la ila azeem aibad Allah aqeem al salat yurhamni yurhamakum Allah


Hi, I'm Andy from Riedel and in this video we're going to be talking about the meaning of the term trunk line. Now a trunk line is not something long and thin that you might draw on a tree. It actually refers to a connection that you would make between two independent intercom systems. Now the trunk line is the connection between these systems and typically you would have fewer trunk lines than each system has users. The connection that we use between the systems can take pretty much any kind of audio format. It can be a regular phone line, a VoIP connection, a satellite link, VHF radio, it could be XLR with analog audio, doesn't really matter. The point is that we have one independent system to the other side we have another independent system and then we have the trunk lines linking them. The trunk lines are dynamically assigned which means that you're only making use of a trunk line when there's an active audio connection. That means that if you're having a conversation with someone across trunk lines and there are pauses in the conversation, it's very possible that you're going to be using different trunk lines for each part of the conversation, but for the end user they have no idea even that they are using a trunk line so it really doesn't matter. It allows the system to be a lot more efficient because the resources can be assigned as and when they're needed according to what's available.