I don't even know how to start this video but I want to start posting on my channel again hopefully and I can't well not that I can't but I I rather do that knowing that I've already put what I'm going through out there and by going through I mean this so yeah I want to start posting videos again it's gonna be rough but I do want to get back on that I actually have a lot of old videos that just need to edit and post and I might post old videos and I might post some new ones but regardless I just wanted to post this first and try and ease my way back into social media especially on the business side because I've been really MIA and for a good reason not gonna get into the details in this video but I this pregnancy so far has been a struggle and even right now as I'm talking I don't feel well I have a migraine and the spitting and nausea and all of that if if you knew how my pregnancy with Josiah went if you're my friend and like know me personally for me to say that this one is actually worse in terms of the sickness and stuff you know it's bad because I went through it when my last pregnancy as well and it's really hard to film talking videos right now because of the spitting and hawking and stuff but one of my symptoms is that my body is producing excess saliva so and I can't just swallow it because then that makes it makes me nauseous and then I want to vomit so I have to spit it out so I have a spit bottle I don't have it out here with me cause I'm outside right now but yeah I have a spit bottle and on top of the spitting mucous is excess mucous is forming in my throat which is another symptom not gonna get into the details in this video because I'm already trying to not spit but yeah but the lighting is better this way but what was I saying see I don't lost my train of thought but yeah those are the two symptoms that would actually prevent me from recording talking videos because it'll be a very hard time editing out all of the breaks I take to spit and it's not pleasant but it is a symptom of my pregnancy and it is what it is I have to accept it and y'all don't but it is what it is but yeah I am pregnant I am currently 15 weeks and three days I'm showing way more like how my body look now it's how I looked at seven months when I was pregnant with Josiah but I started showing way sooner this time and I've been getting it the first trimester I gained a lot of weight because when I first found out I was pregnant I was eating a lot I had a big appetite all of that has changed now I don't have appetite but I gained a lot of weight within those first few weeks so yeah I'm gonna record I'm gonna try and record a video that actually goes into details but this video is just me putting it putting it out there that I'm pregnant and I actually recorded a video a couple days after I found out I was pregnant just it was really for me so and and I was back in February so I might add it to this video just so that you guys can see my initial react reaction but there's a lot of components to it yeah so yeah I'm pregnant baby number two anyways I'm gonna add the other video now probably a clip of it for it's probably like nine minutes I don't know I can't remember I recorded it like I said in February when I first found out so I'm gonna add it to this just to share more info on how I initially felt when I first found out I was pregnant a lot has changed since then we're auto wing April that was back in February so I'm gonna record a separate video to update you guys on basically what I've been experiencing how what I'm going through so enjoy so today is Thursday February 20th 2020 Tuesday February 18 I took a pregnancy test and it came back positive in fact I have it right here see that says pregnant so let me tell y'all how I ended up taking pregnancy tests so on Sunday February 16th I had an event to go to where I was a vendor at you know selling my gem stylistic products it was great I was out there all day very successful event but that night when I came home I wasn't feeling too good and in the next day I felt worse I was going to the bathroom every minute I felt like like diarrhea like I just kept going I assumed I had a stomach bug or something and I also assumed that maybe a brownie that I purchased a vegan brownie that I purchased at the festival this Sunday maybe was upsetting my stomach so I was just like out of it I was tired my stomach was hurting I kept going to the bathroom but I honestly convinced myself that I had a stomach virus or something nothing in my mind ever told me that I was pregnant like it wasn't even a thought and usually if like I start to feel weird that's the first thing that pops into my head but I already had this planned out I was like okay my period came last month it's irregular because I'm still breast feeding but you know once it come this month I'm good and then there's this thing called natural cycle that I was going to get so that I can count my days since my my period is off that would allow me to count my days and know when I'm ovulating or fertile based on my temperature so I was gonna get that in order to you know continue doing my natural bird control method but your girl already knocked up so what happened is that the Tuesday you know I was still feeling off still going to the bathroom like feeling nauseous everything so my fiance was like I don't know you to ever have a stomach virus or feel sick like this so you need to take a pregnancy test I was like a pregnancy test why no he actually said I'm going to buy you a pregnancy test I was like I have a pregnancy test upstairs but why would I need to take that I honestly think this is just a stomach virus he was like no you need to take it and even if it's not that at least you'll be able to rule out pregnancy but you still need to take one so here's the reason I even ended up taking one I went upstairs like who's like this is no big deal like it gonna be negative like I literally did not think I was pregnant yeah I freaked out I freaked out I cried and I cried and I cried and I cried because I do want more children but now in my mind it's not the time and I had no plans to be pregnant this year at all but it is what it is I'm taking it one day at a time trying to accept it I'm trying to make sure this time is different that I'm in a more peaceful and calm mind state throughout everything and I'm trying to think positive and just hoping that I'm not as sick as I was the last time so far instead of like vomiting I've just been shitting a lot and if I'm being honest I rather that than throwing up every morning so if that continues then by all means let it continue but this time does feel different so far I did go on Google and put into a calculator is a some pregnancy calculator thing to determine how far along I am and based on the first day of my last period I should be six weeks and yeah I haven't gone to the doctor yet I haven't thought about scheduling an appointment yet I think I'm still in denial for the most part but I just want to take this one day at a time I do have a doctor's appointment tomorrow but that was from another appointment it's like a follow-up because I did some blood work so that appointment is a follow-up appointment and you know I'll just speak to my doctor one time but this is very unexpected I don't want to tell anybody don't need people that know it of course is my fiancee and my parents that's it my sisters my siblings nobody know my friends don't know and that's mainly because I don't want to hear the whole oh that's why I'm on birth control because my choice for not using birth control is a personal choice and it's a choice that I made based on my health based on protecting my reproductive system because I know I do want more children in the future and I know that if I was able to count my days the way I used to I would be able to continue my natural birth control method but I wasn't able to and I procrastinated too much on getting the natural cycle thermometer and app that would have helped me do that and that's on me but I'm just trying to remind myself that the universe isn't gonna give me more than I can handle and maybe this is happening for a reason you know my son is he'll be 19 months tomorrow and I had no absolutely no plans on having two children this year like I I really didn't but it is what it is and at the end of the day a child is a blessing and that's how I'm gonna look at it but for now I am just keeping this to myself because I don't need judgment from anybody from my friends my family nobody like I don't want if one person telling me oh you should have been on birth control I think I will pop off on them so I'm just keeping it to myself right now and we'll see how it goes I might tell my friends maybe next month or so you know this changes a lot I had a girl's trip time for my birthday in May then now I have a baby bump and I don't know I still want to do it but like I don't know how they're gonna feel about it I just don't need the judgment like I really don't like I've I've already beat myself up and I'm trying to make this video without crying I cried enough already I'm just trying to be positive and if me sharing this information with anybody is gonna bring any negative energy into my mind and my my space right now I rather just keep it within my little family of course I told my mom because she is my go-to person she's my rock so I told her but that's it that's the only people that know right now that's the only people that's gonna know until I decide to tell others which I don't know when that will be so I am just gonna see how this goes like I don't even know I am gonna try to document this journey and maybe sure in the long run but I know I won't be sharing it right now so if you are watching this in the future thank you for watching and you guys will see me in my next video


Hello, welcome to the judge Ben show. My name is Ben Joseph and I'm a retired Vermont trial judge. This is a program in which I interviewed people and talk about current issues that involve the law in the courts. Last year, Vermont's legislature passed a law permitting retail sales of marijuana, which will start, I think in October of this year. The law also set up something called the cannabis control board, which is to make rules, for example on the amount of THC, which is a tetra hydro cannabinoid I think is the word it stands for. It's a chemical that's in in the cannabis causes. It gets you high, you know, for one of a better description. I'm going to read from a press release that the Vermont Medical Society put out. It's not too long. Then I'm going to go to speaking with my guest who's sharing leave you who is a doctor and who works at Boston Children's Hospital. I didn't mention this to her earlier but I just saw an article it suggested that. So as cannabis is legal in Massachusetts that last year they had $2 billion of sales. And as a consequence they collected, I think it's $200 million. I think it kind of goes to the heart of what this is all about that. As they used to say where I came from money talks. I'm hoping that people will understand there should be more controls on the way this stuff is done. And the cannabis control board will limit the amount of hallucinogen THC that's in these products that are going to be sold. So without further ado, I will read from the press release that was put out. Oh, a little less than two months ago by the Vermont Medical Society. They headline their press release Vermont Medical Society calls for commercial cannabis potency limits. No advertising and for warning labels to include mental health risks. Montpelier November 30 2021 the Vermont Medical Society which represents 2400 physicians and physician assistants across Vermont. They adopted a policy resolution urging the Vermont cannabis control board and the Vermont legislature to require that all cannabis grown produced or sold in the state, contain less than 15% THC. That's the, that's the thing that makes people high tetrahydro cannabinoid only took me a week to learn how to say that, but I got it done. The Vermont Medical Society policy opposes all cannabis advertising and advocates for cannabis products and advertising to list evidence based health risks associated with cannabis use, including psychosis and suicide attempts and persons with no prior mental health history. Uncontrollable vomiting dangerous driving addiction and harm to fetuses and nursing babies. I get here that I keep pretty close track and the number of people killed each year by persons driving under the influence of marijuana. Last year that number was 18. There are another 16 people killed in accidents where the driver was under both the influence of both alcohol and marijuana. So there's a, there's a, there's a steep price to pay for the use of this drug. Health and mental health risks are of immediate concern because Vermont currently has the nation's highest past month cannabis use, including use of high potency that is greater than 15% THC products. Evidence shows cannabis use especially with potency greater than 15% THC is associated with increased urgent and emergency department psychiatric visits and increase mental health disorders, including psychosis. It is also associated with increased urgent non psychiatric visits for respiratory distress. Cannabis hyper metastasis syndrome. I won't try to pronounce that one again. That that means uncontrollable vomiting and poisonings. However, in Vermont there is a significantly inappropriate low perception of harm of cannabis use. Most of our mantras associate legalized cannabis sales with marijuana from the 1990s, when the THC levels were less than 2%. Yet in states like Colorado and Washington where commercial cannabis sales have already been legalized, THC potency has dramatically increased with averages for marijuana flower ranging from 17 to 28%. And for concentrate such as dabs and waxes as high as 90% THC. Wow. The cannabis control board is currently drafting proposed regulations in order to implement Vermont's commercialized market for cannabis sales, which is slated to begin in the fall 2022. Last week, the CCB, that is the cannabis control board released proposed rules, which include drafting label, label language that leaves out all mention of serious mental health. Effects associated with cannabis use, including the increased risk of addiction, anxiety, psychosis, suicide attempt or self injurious behavior. Vermont Medical Society President and Psycho was a psychiatrist. I think this is see me Robin stated quote at a time when Vermonters are facing filled hospital beds crowded emergency departments and prolonged wait times for inpatient mental health treatment. These medical professionals believe Vermonters deserve accurate information about the risk of cannabis use, and they should not have commercial access to high risk high potency products. That's the end of the quote. The medical society policy also urges the Vermont CCB and state leaders to dedicate adequate resources to statewide prevention and education efforts that include cannabis use prevention and education at schools and in underserved communities. Evidence based after school activities to decrease high risk behaviors among adolescents treatment of cannabis use disorder. The state leaders, the media and the public of the increased cost and burden to our health care system caused by cannabis use, especially greater than 15% THC cannabis use, including emergency room crowding and overburdening cannabis addiction, psychosis, suicide suicide attempt or self injurious behavior, mental illness, cannabis vomiting syndrome, child poisonings and driving injuries. Let's see. Let's just a little blurb here at the end promoting a medical society which I think I ought to read. The Vermont Medical Society is the leading voice of physicians in the state, and is dedicated to optimizing the health of all Vermonters on health care environment in which Vermont physicians and physician assistants practice medicine. The society serves its 2400 members through public policy advocacy on the state and federal levels, as well as by providing legal administrative and educational support, producing a rich flow of news and information, and offering member benefits that increase medical practice effectiveness and efficiency. So that that caught my attention when it came out for obvious reasons. And my time in the bench I saw a lot of sad things that have happened, because people were using this drug. I'm very, very happy to say today that I have a guest from Massachusetts, whom I hope you can see on your screen. That that guest is Dr Sharon Levy, your doctor of medicine, is that right. Yes, I am a pediatrician, and I have specialty boards in developmental behavioral pediatrics and also addiction medicine. Oh, wow. And you work at Boston Children's Hospital is that right. I direct the adolescent substance use and addiction program. We opened back in 2000, and we were the first substance use disorders specialty program situated at a Children's Hospital in the country so we have a pretty long history of taking care of of kids with substance use problems and disorders. Those are the credentials I like to hear when I have a guest on talking about these subjects. I have a connection with the Harvard Medical School. Well, I do I'm on the faculty at Harvard Medical School I'm an associate professor there. Wow. Wow wow wow. Do you supervise other doctors and therapists as part of your job at the Children's Hospital. So, one of the activities that we do it in in ASAP is that we run a fellowship training program so for guests who may not know doctors go through a lot of training right you know there's medical school. After you finish medical school you do internship and residency training I think a lot of people probably are familiar with that. And that is in your primary specialty so for example for somebody like me that was in pediatrics we spent three or four years doing that training. After completing that doctors can go on and subspecialize. So I'm subspecialized as an addiction medicine specialist. And we run a program that takes physicians after they complete their residency training to do one year of clinical training in pediatric addiction medicine so they learn how to take care of kids with substance use disorders by working with us. Well how many patients do you deal with in a typical year do you know. Last year we completed 5000 visits on it that was with you know somewhere between 500 and 1000 unique patients at any given time. We have four to 500 patients enrolled in our outpatient program so those are patients who we're keeping in touch with who are actively engaged in outpatient therapy with us. What are the typical problems you see when dealing with adolescents that are caused by marijuana by cannabis same thing. And so you mentioned in the statement mentioned the most common problems. You know, I would actually say that the biggest problem that we see is addiction. So one thing that we know about the adolescent brain is it's still developing and it is particularly vulnerable to being interested in trying psychoactive substances like cannabis. You know kids are risk takers. They also do things they like to look for activities that will be very very exciting so we know that right we know that in general that's the kind of behaviors that we see that we expect in high school kids and young adults. We also know that their brain is developing and that the kind of the brakes on behaviors of things that help adults to control impulses and to self monitor and to make good decisions. Those skills are still developing during adolescence, and it turns out that during that period right where kids are so drawn to high risk activities and at the same time, don't have the neurological hardware yet in place that's going to help them reliably make good decisions. During that time period, kids are susceptible to developing the neurologic changes in the brain that that cause addiction. And when I say addiction I'm really talking about loss of control over substance use. Right, and so I think people in their minds I have a good picture of this. For example with cigarettes right there. Probably everybody knows somebody who smokes cigarettes or uses nicotine who would like to stop finds that they can't write that that smoking has become kind of a reflex for them. And they, as much as they would really like to give it up. They find they can quit but they can't really maintain it right. Same thing happens with other substances as well. Right. I mean we know that it happens with alcohol, there are people who really just can't stop drinking even though they want to it certainly happens with opioids. And it happens with cannabis or marijuana as well that people become addicted to it, and they can't control their use and so even when they want to stop. They really struggle with that and people develop addictions, typically during their adolescence, some of the, some of the problems may not present until a little bit later, but something like 90 to 95% of, of adults who have an addiction are not using substances before their 18th birthday. And so, you know, I would put that as number one on the list, because we know that people with addictions people who use cannabis chronically actually have worse outcomes across a number of domains and adulthood so they do. They attain lesser education and job performance. They're less likely to, you know, establish fulfilling relationships and have their own families. And that's all been very very well documented. So, you know, I think that a lot of these are long term consequences, but the addiction really does start in adolescence and really, I think it's incumbent upon all of us to really try and protect our kids during this vulnerable phase of development and really make sure that they go down that path. So, so very long answer, I would say addiction is, is, you know, for me the number one concern with adolescent substance use. So the other things you mentioned. People who use cannabis, particularly those who use during their adolescence are much more likely developmental health disorders, including psychotic disorders you talked a little bit about psychosis and acute psychotic episodes that bring people into hospitals. So, you know, cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. That's syndrome of uncontrolling bomb, uncontrolled vomiting we often, many of us probably think of cannabis as something that reduces nausea and stimulates appetite and that's true in low dose but as we've seen these products become more and more concentrated actually cannabis can do the opposite and so this used to be a very rare condition in my experience. And now probably not a week goes by without me getting a consult for a patient either in an emergency room or in a or a consult from a pediatrician colleague asking how to manage this problem so clearly it's becoming much more common. Wow. Well, by addiction is someone becomes addicted to this stuff does it mean they have to use it all the time. Yeah, so when somebody becomes addicted to a substance what it really means is that they've kind of lost control. I think maybe Mark Twain put it fast he said, quitting smoking is easy I've done it a million times. Right. And so really what that points to is when when addiction develops substance use almost becomes a reflex or sort of the default behavior right. And so they can stop using right but but typically they have to muster a lot of energy to stop using. Okay, because using is almost become a reflex. Think of it like breathing right breathing is a reflex we don't have to think about it we just do it. Now you can actually suppress the reflex can hold your breath. But eventually the reflexes can take over and you're going to start reading again right now in obviously with breathing that's a good thing with with substance use. When that reflex develops, people can actually control they can choose not to use and for any given episode right.  What they're what's really happening is that they're using a lot of mental energy to suppress the reflex and eventually what often happens is people find themselves using again kind of when they let their guard down a little. Now I do want to say for people out there that treatment works. You know, I'm an addiction medicine specialist so I fully believe that I wouldn't have gone into the field if I didn't think there was anything that we can do about it, and we can certainly help people rewire their own brains and sort of undo that reflex that's developed. So, you know, I not it's not that all hope is lost but it is a condition if left untreated. I, you know, people end up often, you know with with with consequences right with you know health consequences with mental health consequences with with all kinds of untoward problems so we want to do everything that we can to prevent this from developing in adolescence. And then when people do develop addictions we want to make sure that there are resources available for them that they can access so that can help them recover. When I read this thing from medical society. I inferred from what what they were saying that the cannabis with a higher THC content is more likely to cause addiction and health problems. Did I get that right. Absolutely right. And so that's a problem across the board with addictive substances. So, we need, we need different kinds of regulation when we're talking about addictive substances, as compared to non addictive substances. What we do with state based regulation is that states don't really have the infrastructure to do that kind of regulation right. Typically, we expect the food and drug administration to, to put those regulations in place. And we have, we've learned a lot of lessons some of them very hard come right you know we know people who are watching may know that for a long time, the FDA did not have jurisdiction over tobacco, right. That changed under the Obama administration, and now the FDA actually does have jurisdiction and so they can regulate tobacco it's obviously tobacco is a product with a lot of potential firms for public health. So, what we've seen over the past 20 years is actually quite significant decreases in smoking among adults and kids, but even more dramatic amongst the kids. And so, you're talking about teenagers. I'm talking about teenagers and I'm talking specifically about tobacco use. So, these regulations can work. And, and, and they're really critically important. Now you take the case of vaping. I'm talking a lot about nicotine because I think it's illustrative here. When, when these new e-cigarette products came out, they were initially not regulated by the FDA. And that was actually kind of a loophole. It was subsequently been closed, but it took a long time to close the loophole and so we had this period of time where manufacturers didn't have to follow the FDA rules for tobacco with nicotine. You know, now we're in a process where they're going to have to but we saw what happened we had these huge increases in youth vaping. And if we had just applied the rules that we already know are effective that we insist on for tobacco to vaping, we may have not, we may have avoided that situation entirely. So, you know, I think that that's something that we need to think about when we're talking about regulating cannabis. We already have a lot of rules that, that are applied to the tobacco industry, you know, that I think have important impact. We need to, that should be a baseline of rules that we apply for cannabis. Now there are different psychoactive substances. So some of the, there may be some, you know, different challenges. But, you know, these are the kinds of regulatory schema that we should be thinking about. What's really challenging here is that because cannabis is in this gray area where it's illegal, of course, by federal law. And that being legalized state by state is that we don't have a federal authority to keep an eye on that. And that really imposes some burden, I think, on each state to figure that all out, and actually implement those rules. But, you know, I think that some of some of the rules that you talked about are exactly on target. So things like limiting concentration in the product. 15% is actually, you know, that's the cutoff that that Vermont is using I think some other states are doing something higher. It's actually very concentrated as you said, back in the 90s back in the 1970s, you know, certainly cannabis plants were in the range of about three, two to 3% THC so 15% is actually quite a bit higher. And then, if we're going to apply the term cannabis or marijuana to other substances and also legalize them under the same rules, then they also have to be highly regulated so, for example, that, you know, when we're talking about vaping liquids that contain cannabis. You know, in some ways when we say okay, we have we've legalized cannabis or marijuana. What does that really mean so that really you know cannabis refers to a plan. Are we going to call absolutely any product that has THC and it cannabis and thereby call it legal, or should we have, or should we have a more thoughtful approach to it. Well, what I wanted to ask you is, what, what limit do you think should be the cannabis control board in our state will have the power to limit the amount of THC. 15% 30% whatever, what do you think is responsible on that record. So I think that limitations on the, on the concentration of THC is important, it's not the only factors that determines how much of an active ingredient, a user might be exposed to. So formulation, or how we deliver the product how people get use the product is also really important that's particularly true with, with people who are using vaping devices or other sorts of mechanisms to consume cannabis right so even so there's no doubt, you know, one of the is probably the number one aspect of how high of how much THC somebody will get, but there are also other things like the power of a device how you know how strong the voltages of the of a vaping device that you're using, what other, what other components are going into the illiquids or even we know this also from tobacco, what other chemicals are going into any sorts of cigarettes that are cannabis cigarettes that people will consume, all of these things actually will influence how much THC people can get that this is why it's an incredibly complex topic, and it's, and I appreciate that it's hard for states, you know that don't really have the machinery to really put these regulations in an effective way, it's just it's very burdensome to states but it's really important that we do it. It's also the case that for tobacco and nicotine products that manufacturer not allowed to sell flavored products because they're too attractive to teams.  Yeah, so for so tobacco products there was a time when tobacco products were flavored with all kinds of flavors vaping products are flavored with candy flavors fruit flavors dessert flavors. For tobacco products flavors aren't allowed for vaping products there's still some flavored products on the market but I think you're going to see them disappear, we should be asking ourselves, should we be allowing cannabis products to come in in flavors in candies in baked goods that are so attractive and so easy to use for younger people. The cannabis control board here in Vermont would have the power to prohibit products being sold with THC content. Should you be in favor of that. You know, I personally would be in favor of, of taking off the market products that are made as desserts candy flavored soft drinks all of these really attractive and accessible products to youth. I don't think they should be on the market personally, you know, of course, they tend to be very good sellers. The industry would surely, you know, have a different opinion on that. But I think, you know, again using nicotine as the example if we look what happens when we make these products. Not only are they attractive to kids, but they also sort of give the message when you package THC into candy bars and into other, you know, products that really look like they're designed for children. And it's actually giving a message that, hey, this is safe.  So it makes a product looked look safe. It makes it easy to consume, right. You know, if a kid gets into it, a younger kid it makes it easier for adolescents may to consume these things. And it also gives the message that this is a product for kids. I mean, I think that there's no other way to interpret, you know, a gummy bear product right I mean, you know, how can you look at that and, and, and it's a very confusing message to say, you know, here's a lollipop with THC in it, but it's not meant for children. I mean lollipops are by definition for children. So it's a very confusing message. And I personally think that those products really should go right that doesn't. That could happen, and you could still have adult access to certain forms of legal cannabis right. What's always a tension is that, you know, some of the, some of these products would be very, very good sellers. And so the question is, how much do you let market forces decide what the, what's going to be allowed and how much is this really driven by public health, rather than trying to maximize revenues. It's, well, what could it should a parent do with they have a child who's getting involved with addiction to this stuff. Well, I would say that if you think that your child may have developed a substance use problem. I would actually talk to a health care provider and I would start with your child's primary care provider and get advice. I think the conditions are treatable. It's really important that we treat and not ignore. Well, I'm just hoping that the cannabis control board will adopt rules which will contain and prevent some of these problems from proliferating. When I heard that there were $2 billion worth of sales in Massachusetts. I was just, it's just mind boggling. You must be a very busy place.  I'm so terrific. I, and I so admire what you're doing. I hope you continue on and have, have success. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. And ladies and gentlemen, I'm up against my time limit. I want to thank you for looking in and please contact the station here if you have any suggestions for other things you'd like to hear about. One of the things that's difficult about doing this job is I don't often get much feedback. Although once in a while, the very nice things that are said, but I want to encourage the public to let me know what you want to hear and what you think about these interviews are doing for you. Thank you. And thanks for looking in so long. So long Sharon. Thanks. Thank you.


be live at 7pm eastern on channel SuperPersonals. Much appreciated. Results are posted. If you ever need to see them, they'll be on the website. So thanks everybody. Have a good one. We'll see you in a bit.


Okay, welcome back and we'll move ahead with the topic on stages of counselling process. If you are following through the notes, I'm on page 23 and we're, sorry, page 22 and we're getting into what is the structure of counselling. So like anything that we do, counselling is also a process that has a specific framework of a particular structure and it's generally a guide that the counsellor uses and it's not something that you rigidly need to follow it as what it is, okay, but it generally gives you a reference point even as you are practicing counselling. So the structural model of counselling that I have taken helps to look at a certain issue in three components. All because you see a stage one, stage two, stage three, it doesn't mean that once you're completely done with stage one is only that you go to stage two and then stage three, you may go to stage one and then you find you've come to stage two, some new issue may come up, you go back to stage one, you go to stage two, stage three in one issue, then come back to stage one. So it's just generally for us like a framework to understand. Now within each of these stages that you see, there are a lot of skills that you need to use and this is what we shall consider after we finish this, okay, so they go hand in hand and once I've completed both this, I will show you in a bigger framework as to how they work one to another. So it gives you a better idea as to how a process of counselling takes place. So these stages helps you to lead your counselling from one to another, okay. So as we looked at the first stage, we said it is an exploratory phase or it's called exploration. So when you look at this stage of exploration, it basically has the, this is the beginning of your counselling, your period of counselling. Now if you remember we said about it's important in the relationship between a counsellor and counsellor that we call a therapeutic relationship, it's important to build a rapport, it's important to build a connection. Now this happens throughout the stage of your counselling but generally, I've always seen that the first 10, 15 minutes of your session with a person and the last 10, 15 minutes often are the most important, okay. The first 10, 15 minutes is because you're making yourself available to the counsellor where you are showing that you're interested in them, that you care, you want to build hope, you want to encourage them to open up, all right. So that's extremely important and the last 10 minutes is important because you are continuing to instill that hope, they should go back feeling or sensing that there is hope enough, right. So going back to the stage one, like I said, is the beginning phase of it when counsellors are really helped to explore their problems so that they have a better understanding, not just of the problem, remember it's not only the problem but how they process the problem. So they're having a better understanding of who they are, how they contribute to the problem and what the general issue is, okay. Now when we are exploring, I think you know, you always need to keep in mind this one thing that often when counsellors are sharing an information with you, usually it is in a situation usually, it has another person or other people involved, okay. So don't get into this trap or into this phase of standing alongside with your counsellor and attempting to change the other person, all right, like suppose you have a husband or a wife you're talking to and the wife is all saying everything about the husband. Your responsibility is not to change the husband, that's not your responsibility and neither is your responsibility to change the wife. Your work here is to help her see what in all of this is that which means to her, what does this entire situation mean to her and how is she contributing to the outcome of a solution, how can she contribute to the outcome of a solution, right.  The idea is, because when you're doing that what does the counsellor see, the counsellor sees, okay, I've got my counsellor on my side, they're going to help me, you know, fight my husband, but that's not what you're there for. You're there to be a neutral listener to the situation and refocus on your counselling, helping her see, you know, what are some things in your capacity you can work on to better the situation, that's where we should be going, we shouldn't be going in the pathway of, okay, maybe, you know, you should get your husband help, maybe he needs counselling, maybe he and his mother are bad, that's none of that that we're supposed to be doing, okay. So and as we're doing this exploration, remember not to get caught in that, because often when we are exploring, we are also trying to figure out more of the person who she's complaining about rather than herself and her situation.  Although she may not be completely aware of that, you are still keeping the focus very clear, you want her to explore her situation and also what is within her that can help you to pick out so that she can work out of the situation. So exploration is not about generally about the other person, well it may come in the conversation, that's fine, but you don't focus greatly on that, okay. So when you're looking through exploration, there are two phases in exploration, okay. The first phase is what we call as the assessment phase and the second phase is what we call as the problem identification phase, we will look at problem identification after this one. So the assessment phase is basically when you're talking to somebody, there needs to be an all-round or a holistic understanding about what is going on with the person you are working with, all right. Like we spoke about in the frame of reference that every person who comes to you has a rich experience of their culture, their upbringing, their background, their family, their social responses, their occupation, there's a rich background of a person which is something it's good to understand and explore. Now that doesn't mean in counseling you're like an interviewer saying, okay tell me about this, tell me about this, this, this, this and you know seem to be so legalistic in your approach that you have completely missed out and responding to the emotional part of the person. Now this is like I said, this is a guide, okay. These 10 basic life areas that you're looking at is as a guide to help you have an all-round understanding of the person who you're talking to, okay. So some of this you may not directly ask but as part of the conversation it can come about like family background, you know. So the first time the person comes to you and they're talking about themselves they're saying, you know, I have a very difficult family life, I've been married for 10 years. So see here you're picking up information, you don't have to ask them but you've picked up okay, he's been married for 10 years that maybe the husband is from another culture, right. So that as she is talking about it you're building a good base in understanding and it's important to understand and she was saying, you know, I have children and we have a big problem with the way that we parent children. So you've understood that there are children over there, right. So these certain areas that I've listed over here are important for us to get a holistic background. Now it really matters what the person is talking to you about. Now let's say they are not bringing an issue with the family, they're only talking about work related issue, right. So it may not be necessary to really know about maybe, you know, maybe their sexual activity, may not be necessary in a case. So it really, you cater it and you work it around in such a way that you find out things that are relevant to them, okay, information that's relevant to them. So these basic life areas are broad categories, it doesn't mean you have to do this with everybody, okay. But sometimes it may be important to understand a few of them much more in detail depending on the kind of issue or the struggle that they're coming from, okay. So some of the things that you would look into is the family background, you will, so when you're looking at family background, there are two things you will need to broadly understand, right. What has, especially, especially when you're working with a marriage to know what the relationship has been in their family of origin. So there are two terms you need to know, family of origin and family of procreation. Family of origin is the original family that is the parents of the children. Family of procreation is the current family that's a husband, wife and that children. So it's important to understand how the relationships have been in the family of origin, you know, what have, what has been the parent and relationship, what have been the relationship between the parents of the child, what's happened as a background, you know, were they all living together as a family, was this person, did they have influences from parental figures or maybe they weren't raised up by parents, they were raised up by grandparents or they were orphans. Now that's a good background to understand, all right. So some of this, because it will help, like especially when you're dealing with things like marriage, to understand how people related in their families, in their original families gives you an understanding of what they're expecting in their current families, okay, because we come from different families and especially when people are coming into marriage, they have very different expectations. Like for example, maybe the husband's family, you know, in his home, whenever there was a conflict, everybody spoke about it, they would sit around the table, talk about it, sort it out. Whereas in the wife's family, whenever there was a problem, no one would talk about it. It's all pushed under the carpet, everything is, you know, very superficial. And when two people from that kind of background come together, their expectations of how a conflict should be resolved is very different. Why? Because their backgrounds are very different, right?  Next one is the social, emotional background. So you're determining to see what have their social contacts been like, you know, what has been their relationships? How have they navigated relationships? What have been their successes and relationships? How have they failed to handle certain relationships, right? Then the next is coping emotionally. How do they emotionally cope when there are stresses that have happened? What are the strategies that they've used, right? Like for example, someone who's been through emotional trauma, have they been, have they taken into alcohol? Have they taken into smoking? Or have they been, you know, have they moved into a prayer life? Or have they, you know, sometimes they may have wrong coping strategies, maybe they harm themselves or, you know, they go injure themselves or whatever, you know, it's good to understand that, explore that. As you're doing emotional background, it's also to explore major events or traumas that they've gone through. And some of the, I may not be completely inclusive in my, as I'm stating this, but then some of the major events is, was there, you know, how has the home environment been? Has it been a very, very conflictual environment? You know, have there been situations that have been difficult, you know, whether for the deaths in the home, whether people who had major illnesses, was there, was there disciplining that was there done? Other major events to the individual, was there any kind of assault? Was there abuse, any physical abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse? These, these happen to be other major events that take place. Have there been strong situational difficulties, like a loss of a job, maybe, you know, a catastrophe that has happened, like, like a natural disaster that's happened, that's taken away different events, you know, loss of money, financial issues. So these are all major events that take place that can affect a person's social and emotional background. So that's important to understand through the conversation. Okay, next is current family and social relationships, where you're, you're exploring how the counsellor's relationship is within every, every area of their lives, be it their home, their work, their church, friends, or the whole community, that's important. Then to understand of their occupation and academic background, why is this important? Sometimes it's important to know what kind of exposure that they've had, right? Academically, what's the exposure they've had? Because if education definitely gives you a lot more exposure, occupation gives you a lot more, more of exposure. So it basically helps you to look at the socioeconomic status as well of the, of the individual. Then comes finances. So here again, the, now, this may not be something that you may need to explore in every, every person, but nevertheless, it depends on what the issues happen. So what were the problems and pressures around finances? Next is their spiritual life. Now, this, this is something generally, in my experience, especially if they aren't believers, this is not something that I would do immediately. I would wait for a couple of sessions, you know, to really pick up what their basic resources have been and then also explore with them what their spiritual life is or how they understand spirituality. But of course, if it's a believer, this is something that, you know, you can determine.  Like for example, they may say, I do experience and I know that I have to be much better in my faith level, but then because of these issues, my relationship with the Lord has suffered. So all that will come. So understanding that is really helpful because that's one of the biggest resources that we can tap into.  Now, this is, of course, you have to do this sensitively. And this is maybe not something you will do right in the beginning again. Again, like I said, it depends on the kind of issue that, that a person may come at maybe like someone who come, a couple who comes for counseling or for help.  So that's, that's another area. Then is recreational leisure. I mean, how do we view this area of life and, you know, what is, what is the importance that they give to that, then their physical health, right? You need to determine this. Remember, I did mention that some of the times when people do come to you, they may be going through significant health struggles, like for example, the mental health condition of depression. It is, it's studied that those who may have certain physical issues like thyroid can have depression, right? Someone with a, with a, with a poor thyroid functioning can have depression. So you ensure that you work through that, get support and get the medical help that they need and then work through the other things. Remember, we spoke about peeling of the onion. You know, we said about clearing up whatever is physical and then getting into the emotional, the rational, the emotional and the spiritual part of it. And lastly, the certain kind of responsibilities that they may have, the routine responsibilities and what are their general areas. So, so this is something that you would, you would need to work through.  And once we look at this example, we will get into the next phase of exploration, sorry, problem identification. Okay. So let's, let's read this out. We'll, we'll move forward. Yeah, I think there's someone who's requested. Yes, Tavya, go ahead. Yeah, thank you, Matt. I just wanted to ask regarding that exploration of those 10 areas. So if it is, I've seen like here, there, there are like categories like of counseling, maybe like, I think it, it is everywhere, like family counseling, career counseling. There are like lots of categories. So I understand like those 10 basic areas are helpful to understand the person holistically. But if it is like specialized counseling that a person is asking about or asking for, so do we like limit it, limit the, you know, the areas of exploration into, you know, or focus more on certain parts and not on other parts. Like for example, career counseling is something, I think it's very different. So yeah, so how, what is a good recommendation from you, like menopause? Yeah, so, so like I had put forward that it really matters what issue it is that they're coming with. Like if they're coming with let's say a marriage issue, you may need to explore maybe a little bit more because it is a relational issue. That is something with regard to career. It doesn't need too much of personal information, right? It's all maybe, unless of course they are talking about something. So let's say a person who's coming to you for career counseling saying, you know, I'm trying to think about what all I can do, right? If it is that straightforward as that is, you may just need to look at their occupational and their academic background. That's about what they have or maybe something of their recreational activities or leisure or things like that, right? That's about what you need to do or their past occupational background. That's all. But when it comes to something like let's say marriage or let's say a interrelational issue or let's say something with mental health that they come with, you may need to explore a lot more. So it really depends on what they're coming to you for. So these, like I said, they're broad categories that you would explore depending on what seems most relevant to them. So it's not that you have to do all 10 with everyone. But this is, it's an all encompassing view that you have. So if it's career counseling, it's specifically related to that. Unless of course, in the course of conversation, they say something like, you know, I've just noticed that I feel a lack of confidence not just at work or at what I should be doing, but even in my relationships. Now they've added something new. So that's when you go to explore again some, like a new entire set of things, right? So I hope that answers your question. Thank you, ma'am. I think as you say, we go back and forth, right? As we're revealing things, we go back and forth. Yes. So you don't have to waste time doing everything if you feel it isn't relevant. But as in when something else opens up, you can ensure that you do that. Okay. All right, we'll just go through the case study and we'll get into the next part of understanding how do we explore, when we're looking at problem identification, which is the second part of exploration. Okay. So this is Dennis. Dennis is a 19 year old doing his second year of engineering. He was recently found drinking alcohol on college grounds. When confronted about it by a professor, he became extremely argumentative and aggressive and was suspended as a result. Dennis has a history of getting into trouble at college for missing classes, failing to complete assignments and general rudeness to professors. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So a number of professors have reported being concerned about David's help. Sorry. Dennis's help. Sorry. I don't know how David came there. Dennis's health and well-being and have stated that they were sure that they had smelled alcohol on his breath on several different occasions. They also noticed a deterioration in his college work as well as his general demeanor. Dennis was referred to a counselor for his drinking and behavior problem. Dennis has admitted that he has been drinking quite a lot and sometimes by himself to get away from things. Okay. There is one more slide that I will bring up later, but by just reading what you have seen on this slide, what do you think or what do you, from just hearing what you've heard, what do you identify as an issue or as a problem? And I'll go back to one slide ahead if you want to read that again. And okay, let's look at this first part of the slide and identify what the problem is as according to the slide. So I'd like y'all to look at it, read it and tell me what you think could be certain issues. Okay. Anybody? What do you think is Dennis's issue or problem here? Just from the slide that you can see. This slide, it looks like academic background. Maybe because he's a paving and not completing the assignments. Maybe not very clearly. Okay. So on the face of it, you feel that it is an academic issue. He's been failing, not doing well in school. Okay. All right. Anybody else? Yeah, I think someone's put up their hands. Yes, go ahead. Yeah, I think there is a progression here for like he has a history of getting into school. We see like missing his classes, completing assignments, gender forgiveness. So these are some pointers. And yeah, so the alcohol, I think it is expression of all the underlying problems. Yeah. So yeah, that's an argumentative and aggressive, even that are expressions of something underlying lot of hatred. Okay, excellent. Yeah. So what is being, what is, what are some of the manifestations of the problem is that he's found drinking. He's argumentative. He's aggressive. Right. He has a history of getting into trouble for missing classes. Doesn't, is not functional in his regular day to day function. Now this is what is being presented to you, right, in the first hand. Why is this information not sufficient? Why do you think this information is not sufficient enough? Suppose your counselor is going to say, okay, how can we stop you from drinking? And the counselor is going to, you know, maybe you work with, let's say the counselor says, okay, you know, you need to get back to college. Now these are all true things, right? I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong in doing this. But then, however, we are looking at the problem at a very superficial level. We're not getting deeper. If the counselor were to just get this information and say, okay, let's, let's look back at how you can get into college, how you can improve your attendance, how you can do your assignments.  Is that going to solve his problem? Or do you think that there's something a lot more deeper? I think it's a lot more deeper. It's not just about it. Okay. All right. So let's look at the second part of it. And then, then see, okay, so this is an expert here. So look at this slide and see what, what is it that you've got extra? There is like a deterioration that is mentioned. So I feel it's not abrupt. It has not taken place over, it has taken place over a course of time. Okay. Plus an extra information is like he has been drinking quite a lot and sometimes by himself to get away from things. So to get away from what things is a question. Excellent. So he's given you a clue that one, this is not a one off issue, that this has been something that's been going on for some point of time, so much so that this going on for so much of time has affected his general functioning in college, his behavior. And that's why he was a refer to a counselor for his drinking problem, drinking and behavior problem, it says, right? And that he's admitted that he uses it in order to get away from things. So that's what things, that's your next next thought about what things is he looking at. Okay. So here is it that there's extra revealing. Okay. So life areas reveal that Dennis had difficulty in coping with academics. His father's unreal expectations of him fulfilling his dreams of becoming an engineer. He resented his father for this because he secretly desired to be part of a rock band. David was forced to join an engineering college. He was unable to apply his mind to studies, alcohol became his escape from reality. However, Dennis doesn't see that there is a problem with his drinking and believes that the professors should mind their own business. Okay. Now this is additional that's given to you. Okay. Now from here on, what else are you seeing as issues? Yes, what about the rest other than Jeffy, Divya? What about the rest? Maybe the others also could share? Yeah, I feel there is expectations that he never wanted to be that, but there is an expectation forced on him that pushed him into something that he sees it as a justification for his behavior. So yeah, alcohol became his escape mode for him. He's a coping mechanism for him. And what you see is Dennis's response in this one. He doesn't want help. So he doesn't think it's a problem, right? Right. Okay. So you have come to a person who's come to you who doesn't think he has a problem. All right.  Where do you go from here when that happens? What are your thoughts? That's a deadlock. Okay. Yeah. So this is a place where often you will find people in, right? And sometimes they're not, in fact, you will find people who are very poor inside about what they're doing in the problem. That is, I'm not the problem here, but my, the other person is a problem. That's what I said. So never get into the trap of focusing on the fact that you're standing with his dad right now and saying, oh poor Dennis, you know, dad's done this all to you and that's why you're drinking, right? But you're helping Dennis in this place, you're going to help Dennis to really relook at his situation. Okay. So let's, let's, and I'm going to open this out to you. What kind of a question do you think you can ask? I know we're going a little bit outside of the exploration, but I think it's helpful to understand this because it's a good moment. What kind of a question would you want to ask Dennis that will help him to really think about whether there's something he needs to do about this or not? Maybe, like, what can be, what, what, what would this get you into or just make him think of the, like, outcome of this over a period of time? Is it helping you in any way? Okay. Is, is this helping you in any way? Okay, Jafina? Yeah, I think he's been interested in the blockchain right? So we can just ask him like, how these things are helping you towards the dreams that you have got in this life, maybe something like that. Okay, that's good. So you're basically looking at the resources or so, so look at this. Now, and I think Jafina's answer is, is pretty, you know, accurate in the way you want to approach something.  Now, if you would want to get Dennis into a place of thinking, be attracted to what he's attracted to. I'd say, maybe sing something. Dennis, you know, that's, that's, that's wonderful. I just see that you have such a passion to become, to be something in the rock band, right? Could you tell me more about that? Or if tomorrow, this became a reality for you that you got into a rock band, what would it look like for you? So what are you doing? You're creating a different sense of a reality for him, right? Because right now, if I'm, if as a counselor, when he's just doesn't want to talk to me about any of this, he's saying, Hey, I don't have a problem.  Then I've got to use something very, very different with him.  Some people just want to talk about their problem and say, you know, I just want to get out of this, just help me, and they're more than willing to do anything. But it really, it really helps to think critically as to, you know, okay, this is what you said, this is what you like. So I found out one nice thing that he's talked to me about this whole thing. And I want to catch on to that and try and work through that. Okay, so this was just outside of it. And I just wanted to take you through that to really help. So in exploration, what are you doing first and foremost, is you are also beginning to draw out and clarifying his feelings. Now, he said so much over here, right? That if I'm going to again, so that the first part is yes, trying to get the wrong back. The next part that, that you know, that I would go into is this draw out and clarifying problem feelings. Now, what am I doing here is he's told me about how he's so disappointed about, he didn't tell me, but then I've picked it up that his father wants him to do something, right?  So I've done two things here. I have picked about what his feelings are, and I've also picked about the dream, right? So I am drawing out and bringing about the feelings. He's told me nothing about what he feels. He's just probably said, yeah, my dad expects too much of me, you know, and he just wants me to go to college and I hid my dad for it. And yeah, I can't cope with this.  He didn't allow me to do that. So he hasn't said anything about his feelings, but then I am going to pick out, draw out what he's feeling, right? So it may not be disappointing. He said, no, I'm not disappointed. I am solely angry. I want to, I want to bring about the revenge to my father. He may be clarifying those feelings for you, but it's good to come to a place of exploring what he's feeling about his problem. So the problem identification, you're able to identify the problem, but you need to also explore what the feelings are like. So the next one is, you know, I just see that you resent or you're really angry with your dad for forcing you to follow his dream, isn't it?  I don't want to have anything. So what are you doing? You're actually helping him get in touch with his feelings. Now remember, when people get in touch with his feelings, and I think I told you the last time, it doesn't mean you're agreeing with them. It doesn't mean you're agreeing with the fact that you should continue resenting your father or you should continue working with him. So your approach, your next line is not, you know, that's not the right thing to do. The Bible says you shouldn't be angry with other people. That may not be appropriate at that point of time to do. What you're doing here is you are empathizing. You remember one of the principles? It is you are standing in emotional involvement. You are being controlled in your emotional involvement, yet you're accepting that the person is where they are at. Yeah, I see that it makes you really angry. So this is what we're looking at, problem identification, to be able to bring about and explore the deeper feelings that the person has about the problem. Now I'm just going to go two steps ahead to just help you see how would I respond to a question like this? He says, I hate my dad for forcing me to follow his dream rather than mine. So my next question into action or understanding would be something like, okay, I'm jumping this just so that you know how we progress. I would say something like, okay, Dennis, if you needed to really, if you needed to really fulfill this dream of yours, what were some of the things you would like to do to get your father on board with you? So what am I doing? I have twisted the question in such a way that he's going to think, okay, if I wanted to follow my dream, how would I get help my father to do that? I've twisted the question in such a way that he thinks in that direction. Or I can say something like, okay, if you needed to follow your dream, what should you be doing? The general question is, I don't know what I need to do. I'm lost. But the way that I probably put out my question is saying, if you could tomorrow, you could follow your dream, what are some of the things that you could do to help your father be on board? That also helps the person to think more focusing on their next action. So that's just a part of that. So now once you have identified the problem feeling, that is he feels disappointed, he feels resentment, the next thing that you're going to do is you want to find a certain goal. You want to begin to find how is the person going to deal with the problem that they have? What is the goal of the issue? So once you have an idea about what is his dominant emotion, which we saw in the previous slide is maybe disappointment and resentment, the next task is to explore, is to try and explore and discover what might be the chosen goal. What is that you want to do to work through this? So if you believe you need certain things in order to be those deeper goals of security, of significance and worth, we need to help them to pursue it. And thus that should become the chosen goal. So basically what they're doing is they say, I need something good to help me cope with my disappointment and anger and that good thing is alcohol. So right now his goal is alcohol, that's become the goal that if I take to alcohol as a means of getting over my disappointment, what am I doing? In a way, I am getting what I need. So what you're doing is you are going to help them rework that goal and to see if there is any other goal. So his goal right now is take alcohol, get even with his father because he's not helping him fulfill his dreams and in that way maybe getting the college authorities to finally throw him out of college because in a very deeper way, he's doing something so he can actually be thrown out of college so that he doesn't actually fulfill what his father wants to because he resents his father. So that's becoming the current problem goal. So what you're attempting to do is to get them to a point where they're coming to the place of reworking the goal. The goal here is not alcohol. The goal here is not to get even with the father but you have to help them to rework another goal, which means what is that goal? What is the new goal that you would want to pursue or what would you want to follow? So when you identify, once you are able to figure out the goal, you're identifying the basic beliefs and the strategies that is causing them the problem.  Now what are you doing is you're identifying what is the belief that the person has about this and what are the strategies that they're using to get into that goal. So here he may say something like, this is his belief. My father does not love me. He doesn't care about my wishes. Now that's become a goal. I'm sorry, that becomes a belief. He strongly believes that his father has something against him or this becomes a belief. Alcohol will help me get over my pain and disappointment.  So these are certain beliefs that he may be having about this and that's what you are doing when you're identifying the problem. You are looking at the rational part. You're looking at the emotional being. Remember, think of the five areas of functioning. You've looked at the emotional being, what he feels about it. He feels anger, he feels disappointment, he feels resentment. It's coming out of certain beliefs. What are the beliefs? My father does not love me or alcohol is something that can help me forget my disappointment or this is bringing about something, a spiritual belief. My fulfillment, my significance comes from being a rock band singer. So you're beginning to identify much more deeper things as you're entering into that conversation. Now once you have done this, now you are helping your councillor to make the problem his own. Remember I said, right? The problem as he comes in is not seeing it as, he sees it as his father's problem. But now when you have identified this emotion, the belief system that he has, the strategies he's working towards it, these core crucial needs that he has of being fulfilled. Only if he becomes a rock band singer will it become fulfilled. You are making, helping him become more aware of the fact that through all these means, he has a part to play in the problem. So this is a way that you begin them to help them to personalize the problem, take onus for it. They're taking agency for the problem. So when you're looking at it in lines of it, you're probably bringing back the understanding that he's disappointed, that he's not able to follow a certain dream and that he needs something to cope and he's used alcohol as the answer to cope. But he may need something else to cope. So you bought that back to a promising, I am the only one who can change this for myself. So the problem identification works on getting all of this part of it, those errors of functioning and bringing them to a place where they can find ways of how they have contributed to the problem through their thinking, through their belief system and then come bringing them to a place where they are able to personalize the problem. The next step you would do is to encourage the councillor to not just personalize the problem. Now he's owned it, he's saying, okay, maybe I've looked at alcohol because I want to take away my disappointment. Now you're getting them to bring about a goal in order to work it. So you're assisting your councillor to begin to become responsible or have agency, not just for what they're doing, but also to bring about the right goals and behave in a way that is right or that is consistent to the truth. So here, now remember this all happens in conversation where they realize and say, I realize that alcohol is not the solution to take away my anger and disappointment, but working to pursue my dream while I train to be an engineer. So he's probably worked through a goal. Now the goals can be very different for other people, but for Dennis this was a goal that I see that alcohol cannot be the issue. I need to see how I can pursue the dream while I also become an engineer. So this is a new goal. And what is the skill you're doing? The skill of personalizing the problem and the goal together is allowing the councillor to be aware of their contribution to the problem and to make them assume that responsibility that they can change the problem into a solution goal. So that's where they are able to find out. So the goal is generally doing something opposite of the problem and that's why you're bringing them to realize that they have an involvement in that and that's what you want them to move into. So these certain points, I'll just go back. So if you see you here when you're looking at exploration, when you identify the problem, you are helping them clarify their feelings. You're helping identify what has been their goal-oriented behavior, which is alcohol in this case. Then you're looking back deeper into helping them understand their basic beliefs and revealing what are the strategies that they're using to get these beliefs. Then once they understand this, you're helping them personalize on the problem, take responsibility of the problem and then attaching a new goal with it. So this is what takes place in a problem identification. Any thoughts? Yes, Vidya, go ahead. Yeah, I was just trying to consolidate what you were telling. So is it right if I say we are trying to exploring the emotion behind and the behavior cause for the behavior and then trying to understand the underlying belief system or what they believe. Yes. You know, root cause analysis. In our job, we say root cause analysis. So I was relating to that. It may not be a good analogy, but when we have issues, we do a thorough root cause analysis of it. So then we'll take action how to do it. So then reworking the goal and then the action. So I just want to consolidate. Perfect. That's exactly what it is. Yes, it is. Anyone else has any thoughts, any questions? I'd really appreciate the rest of the class. I know Divya and Jeffina are generally the ones who contribute and who talk, but I'd love to hear from Success, Lubega, Anita, Lyndon, Isaac, Ruby.  There's nothing right, wrong. We're all learning. All right. Okay. Yes. So thank you so much. And let's just close with a word of prayer. Would somebody like to just close the prayer? Let's pray. To Heavenly Father, we come under the name of Jesus. We thank you for this day. We thank you for the class that we had. God, we thank you for how beautifully you have created us. And God, I just pray that as we learn more about these things, help us to move in compassion, just like how you did, help us to understand the people more so that we can help them to live a life just like how we want us to live more. Be with us, guide us. As we listen to the class, help us to open our mind and heart and listen and understand and apply it in our lives so that we can be and lead to others, so that we can be a blessing to others. We thank you for Pastor Jean. We thank you for all my classmates. We give you all the glory and praise and Jesus. Amen. Amen. Thank you. Thank you, Jeffina. Thank you, everybody. God bless. We'll meet you next week. God be with you. Thank you.