So, a few house rules just before we begin, so if everyone could keep their microphones to be muted, apart from the speaker, we expect courteous language from all the professionals who are on the call, and if you have questions, please put these in the chat or identify yourself to one of the organisers and we'll ask the question. We're very much looking to have this as an interactive session, but we should also be show respect to the speakers. What's going to happen in this session is that we have a number of short talks and then we're going to get into a debate for about an hour in the second half of the session. It's my job to try to keep everything to schedule and I'll do my best to start with that. So I'd like to begin the session by introducing Senator the Honourable Leslie Campbell and over to you, Sir, in Jamaica. Thank you, footballer. You know, the first of April had me going. Thank you, Russell, from the Scottish Business Network. Mr Kilian Clifford, International Organisation for Migration. Ladies and gentlemen, good morning, good afternoon and good night to you all wherever you are in the world. Thank you for that kind introduction, Mr Daglish. And thank you also for that overview on Diaspora Economic Capital, the subject of our technical working group. Allow me to thank the organisers for the excellent arrangements which have facilitated our participation. And in this regard, I look forward to a successful outcome to these deliberations. It's a pleasure to join you as host of this technical working group on Diaspora Economic Capital. As stated by Mr Daglish, the aims of this technical working group are to identify best practices, to quote, to identify where we as policy makers, practitioners, organisations and as a sector need to go next. And how we can work together to get these out there, unquote. I'm grateful for this opportunity to learn about your respective countries and the mechanisms and strategies adopted to strengthen their deep engagement with your respective Diaspora communities within the context of Diaspora Economic Capital. I'm happy to share our own experiences with you. Jamaica's engagement with its community overseas includes all the specific themes related to economic capital, namely business entrepreneurship, activities, trade activities, remittance, sending and utilisation behaviours, that is philanthropy, savings and investment behaviour, and least among them, but not last, or last among them but not least, tourism. I will focus on philanthropy and remittance, sending as these are areas where we have most experience. And where perhaps there's room for global collaborative action. We're very keen to learn about existing partnerships in this regard and key actors who can partner with governments to increase the impact of engagement of Diaspora Economic Capital and indeed how the future agenda document can support such partnerships. Members of all diaspora, various organisations and friends of Jamaica provide invaluable support in cash and kind to Jamaica. They have an abiding affinity to Jamaica and make significant donations to their communities. Over the years, many Jamaicans have benefited individually or as a community from the philanthropic endeavours of the diaspora, especially in the fields of education and health. This unparalleled generosity and support was recently demonstrated in the context of Jamaica's response to the COVID-19 pandemic in 2021. Their contributions directly assisted the government's response to COVID-19 pandemic and were of critical importance in supporting the most vulnerable in our communities and our frontline workers. Donations of personal protective equipment and online learning devices in keeping with the priority areas identified by the government in its response to the pandemic amounted to over Jamaican $500 million. Philanthropic activities included but were not limited to medical missions to Jamaica and community development initiatives. In all efforts to attract diaspora economic capital on network of high commissions, embassies, consulates, general overseas and consulates general overseas. Prioritise the facilitation of trade and investment initiatives as well as maintain and strengthen relations with the diaspora through our economic diplomacy programme. The programme which is being implemented by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Foreign Trade in partnership with JamPro, that is Jamaica Investment Promotion Agency, is geared towards economic development of Jamaica and support for Jamaicans in the diaspora. As Minister with Responsibility for Diaspora Affairs, I have been actively engaged in strengthening these relations with diaspora including the promoting of business and investment opportunities, and advising of improvements in systems and measures to encourage investment and to facilitate the ease of doing business in Jamaica. As reflected in the working group background paper, the government of Jamaica announced a rediscovered Jamaica campaign which encourages domestic tourism through diaspora marketing. These and other measures have been introduced to incentivise nationals who are desirous of returning home to work, study or invest in Jamaica. Other government initiatives include reform of the stamp duty and reduction of transfer tax payable on transfer of property. We anticipate that these measures will further encourage our community overseas to invest in Jamaica towards the development of the country. It is also anticipated that these measures will benefit and empower nationals wherever they reside. According to the World Bank, remittances registered strong growth in most regions, flows increased by 21.6% in Latin America and the Caribbean, 9.7% in the Middle East and North America, 8% in South Asia, 6.2% in Sub-Saharan Africa and 5.3% in Europe and Central Asia. In Latin America and the Caribbean, growth was exceptionally strong due to the economic recovery in the United States and additional factors including migrants' responses to natural disasters in their countries of origin and remittances sent from home countries to migrants in transit. These resources represent important private flows to individuals which have buttressed in income levels and consumption. The fact that remittances increased during the period of the pandemic is a strong testament of the commitment of audits per community to offer support to their families during times of crisis. For 2021, Bank of Jamaica figures indicate that remittance inflows exceeded US $3.3 billion representing an increase of over the 2020 figure which stood at $2.9 billion. The World Bank has indicated that remittance flows have greatly complemented government cash transfer programs to support families suffering economic hardships during COVID-19 crisis. And that facilitating the flow of remittances to provide relief of strained household budgets should be a key component of government policies to support a global recovery from the pandemic. We endorse this position and support efforts to partner with private entities to facilitate research, dialogue, development and implementation for the safe and efficient transmission of remittances. We will also support efforts that promote financial literacy for migrants and the recipients of these transfers to enhance volume management and develop an impact of these remittances. Quality is difficult to quantify diaspora economic capital overall. The government recognizes its huge impact on the economy. They are recognized as investors, partners, marketers, networkers and key collaborators with the government of Jamaica, businesses and civil society. It is our practice to invite and encourage full participation of the diaspora in activities that enhance the national development process as well as empower the diaspora community in the countries where they reside. Ladies and gentlemen, it is our hope that by participating in this dialogue, we will both inform and be informed of best practices moving forward. I look forward to the upcoming exchange and thank you for listening. Thank you, Leslie. That was a wonderful speech and I can greatly identify with that movement of capital which occurred during the pandemic. And I think diasporas became more evident to the world than ever during the last two years. So thank you for your words. I would now like to call to speak Kilian Clifford of the IOM. Kilian is a senior migration governance expert with responsibility for migrant financial and economic empowerment. Welcome. Thank you, Russell. I'm just hoping everyone can see my screen there. I think you can. Thank you for that introduction, Russell. And thank you to the Honourable Leslie Campbell for presenting on the diaspora investment within Jamaica. Very interesting to hear that. So I'm going to present to you today an overview of a technical background paper for this particular session that we prepared in advance of it. And it was posted on the diaspora website, IOM website, for this particular session. But if you didn't have the chance to read it, don't worry, I'll cover off the pertinent points here. And the idea is to set the scene and present where current thinking is on the diaspora economic capital and outline a potential framework for engagement after the summit. And present some of the guiding questions for discussion that might feed also into the outcome document for this summit. And that document is known as the future agenda document. And that future agenda document will be the mandate of how we engage going forward. Okay, so let me begin on the overview of this particular paper. So on the diaspora economic capital that so the role that migrants can play in the sustainable development of their countries of origin and destination is increasingly being recognized within global migration governance and specifically within the global compact migration, which you're all familiar with no doubt. And that shapes much of the dialogue within within a specific area so within the global compact objective 19 calls for signatories to create the conditions for migrants and diasporas to fully contribute to sustainable development in all countries. And in the context of today's meeting, all countries includes both countries of destination and countries of origin. And as part of sustainable development, there is an increasing recognition of the role that migrant economic capital can play in achieving this goal. So, embedded or deep within the objective 19 article 35, he calls for signatories and this is a bit of a mouthful while I'll read it out anyway, develop targeted support programs and financial products that facilitate migrants and diaspora investments and entrepreneurship, including by providing administrative and legal support and business creation and granting seed capital matching established diaspora bonds diaspora development funds and investment funds and organized dedicated trade fairs. So those are examples of diaspora economic capital but that list isn't of itself exhaustive. So how can we define or how should we define economic capital more broadly economic capital can be described as any economic resource used to buy and or make products and provide services are using that definition because the economic capital can be both financial and crucially non financial and to fully realize the potential of the diaspora and migrant economic capital. We as stakeholders need to understand where and how it can be engaged and whether this can realistically be done without first properly engaging and building relationships with the diaspora communities. Now we touched upon this earlier on in the philanthropy session and no doubt we will in the in the discussions afterwards will will touch on it again. And so often remittances are the entry point springboard to unlocking other types of financial economic capital, whether it's investment entrepreneurship trade, etc. But the aspect philanthropy may itself be the entry point for engaging with diaspora groups before engaging with for an angel eat their financial economic capital. Of course, there are many international initiatives initiatives promoting remittances, but less on unlocking other forms of economic capital. So the overriding question in the paper in for it for the technical group as well is how can we work together to build sustainable systems of engagement with the diaspora communities that will allow us to leverage the aspect economic capital for it to continue to to contribute to a sustainable development. So let's take a look at the different types of economic capital that can apply for both countries of origin and destination, focusing firstly on countries of origin. Well remittances are the topic that everyone knows a lot about so the historical discussion on diaspora economic capital has traditionally been grounded in remittances. However, in recent years has broadened to encompass other forms of diaspora economic capital. But before we discuss those, it's worth reminding ourselves of the role that misses play. So at a macro level, you're probably familiar with this chart from the World Bank that the lead brother and his team put together which shows us that excluding China remittance flows into developing countries are greater than foreign direct investment FDI and overseas development systems ODA combined. They are the maroon colors and the red FDI line on that so remittances is greater than those two sums combined so there are significant international flow into developing countries and international flow that remain resilient through the pandemic. And at a micro level, so at the level of the migrant or diaspora if you prefer the remittances if remittances channel properly through linked financial services, they can also be the launchpad for other diaspora capital mobilizations. But again, what bearing in mind critical discourse points out that 70% of remittances may sometimes be spent on consumption, which can lead to remittance dependency and not necessarily leave a lot over for diaspora investment. This is why it's worth understanding the motivation of why migrants send remittances in the first place and how they are used. And of course data collection is very important in understanding that. Migrant digital and financial literacy and migrant digital and financial inclusion is also important if diaspora are to realize the power of their economic capital. And in the paper we provide examples of relevant GIZ projects in this area that offered training to migrants to use their remittances for longer term investments. And those investments can come in many forms of they could be diaspora bank accounts for instance either local or foreign currencies and those particular bank accounts that may have attractive interest rates to entice investments. Those investments could also be in debt such as diaspora bonds which you're hearing more of and the funds from those bonds may or may not be earmarked for specific purposes. Often these bonds can attract what's called a diaspora premium meaning they can be a cheap form of financing or funding for governments. The diaspora may also choose equity investments and that is directly investing in local businesses in their countries of origin or maybe indirectly through the stock market or funds. And in the paper we include the example of the Russian digital account initiative in Pakistan that managed to combine all these three types of diaspora investment through various incentives. So other types of diaspora capital which we heard about in the case of Jamaica include entrepreneurship and trade. So diaspora may choose to open businesses of their own in their countries of origin. And diaspora networks are well positioned to break down the barriers and connect businesses in both countries of residence and origin to establish bilateral trading relationships. And this way they can also be providers of social remittances in terms of skill development and mentoring businesses that they invest in. So this is a type of diaspora philanthropy that we spoke of earlier in terms of time and talent lending that time lending that talent to to communities back in countries of origin. And in turn these initiatives could potentially be aimed at women or youth or at rural poor. We heard that the World Bank session at the break and or even they could be directly aimed at their local communities contributing to inclusive sustainable development. So there are a number of examples of this in the paper again of this happening including in the case of Ireland. A lot in the case of Intel choosing to invest in Ireland and also the role that the Ireland funds played in the peace process within Northern Ireland. And of course as we heard specifically within the case of Jamaica just now diaspora tourism can be an important source of tourist dollars and diaspora investment for a country of origin. What are countries of residence? How do they stand to benefit from engaging with their economic capital? Well countries of origin are often prioritized in this discussion but countries of residence can benefit too. So diaspora investing in their countries of origin can work in the interests of the country of residence. So by leveraging networks of influence in diaspora groups countries of residence can build important bilateral ties with countries of origin. So marketing to the buying power of diaspora groups can help businesses in countries of residence. And diaspora change makers or leaders can act as mentors to nurture and leverage diaspora capital in countries of residence. And by engaging in diaspora communities in this way it can lead to circular development and job creation across both countries of origin and countries of residence. Which you might consider a form of economic diplomacy. And we touched again on this in the earlier session on diaspora philanthropy. It was termed give where you live. So diaspora philanthropy is not just aimed at countries of origin but also countries of residence too. But how can we engage diaspora and economic capital? So if we've just talked about the different types of economic capital the paper also provides a baseline for a framework of engagement with diaspora and leveraging diaspora economic capital. We'd love to hear from you from the audience in the interactive discussion of what you think about this particular framework or specific examples you could show. So we've included here an example at an institutional informational and implementation level. And this can be done for instance as an example by assigning ownership for diaspora engagement at a high level within government. We certainly have that in the case of Jamaica and then coordinating activities by employing a whole of government approach. Then developing appropriate data frameworks for measuring and monitoring diaspora economic contributions. And through the analysis of that data developing the appropriate strategies to engage with diaspora and better leverage the economic capital. Whether that is via entry points as just diaspora philanthropy saw or including stakeholders and partners such as the private sector civil society diaspora groups etc. There's many ways to do this. And there's many ways there's examples of this in the actual paper itself. But if you want to delve a little deeper into the framework IOM zone contribution encountering report has come quick examples of suggestions that how this can be operationalized in your country. And specifically for measuring contributions of diaspora economic capital beyond remittances. So we've seen the different types of economic capital how we might conceptualize a diaspora engagement framework. But what does that mean for the future of diaspora economic capital? How can we continue collaboration to set the agenda on this thematic going forward? Well the opportunity exists for the outcomes from this particular working group in this session today to feed into the outcome document for the global diaspora summit. And as I said that's called a future agenda document. And who's able to shape the global collaboration on diaspora engagement going forward. So this will also feed into the monitoring for the global compact migration. And that is happening via the international migration review form the IMORF in New York next month. And so to insist on that dialogue and in the discussion today we have presented three guiding questions for your consideration discussion. And they're on the themes of policy programs and partnership and we'll discuss them in a while. But just to familiar yourself with them here they are on the screen within the terms of policy. What can the future agenda document recommend at a policy level to achieve global collaboration on diaspora economic capital. On the program level what are the programs that are there for diaspora engagement to leverage economic capital. And on the partnership side who are the key actors stakeholders to partner with governments to increase the impact of diaspora economic capital. So that's the summation of the paper. That will form the discussion as well in a moment's time. But at that point I would just hand back to Russell and thank you all for your time today. Thank you very much for that and perfect timing as well. We obviously have a very professional session here so that's a great start. And we'll come back to that examination of the questions in the discussion later in our gathering. But next we're going to take an international view and we're going to hear from three speakers looking at. Tanja Dedović who's going to look at thoughts from Africa. Ulan Nogoyabev who's going to share us a view from Krakistan. And Laura Rola who's going to give us a view from Latin America. And I'd like to apologize for I pronounced all of your names. But could we start with Tanja. Thank you very much Mr. Chair and a good afternoon to our distinguished audience. It is my pleasure to present to you the main outcomes from the Africa consultations. So I would like to take this discussion to a continental level at this point because what I'm presenting to you are in a way the findings from the discussions that we had just a couple of days ago. In the Africa consultations on the four capitals. And so on the first question on policies. We have actually heard from a number of countries who participated in this consultation. That they are all thinking about setting up investment funds. And we have also heard from the representative of the African Union Commission that there is the intent to set up an African diaspora financing corporation which will be sort of a continental investment fund which should also allow transnational diaspora engagement. So not a Nigerian investing in Nigeria just as an example but a Nigerian being able to decide where to invest with his savings or with his funds anywhere in Africa. We have also heard talking about policy that one prerequisite for engaging with diaspora also in the economic sense is to have actually a diaspora policy. So that does not exist yet in every country but it definitely helps to bring together the whole of government to bring all the line ministries together. Also when it comes to engaging with diaspora and with the economic capital of diaspora. And we have also talked and what came up as a challenge when we were talking about setting up such policies and such instruments like an investment fund. Since we are talking about money and we are talking about investment the trust issue. So we think that that is yet another policy that the government needs to put in place to have really a strong ongoing regular communication with diaspora. Also in terms of reporting back to diaspora on how funds are being utilized and to establish the trust. We heard one good practice in the sense that Kotiwa was telling us that they have an annual diaspora forum where they decide on a list of recommendations that then needs to be followed up. And that list of recommendations sort of turns into a work plan, a work program for the participants to implement until they meet again the next year. And where they then review how many of the recommendations from the past year have actually been implemented. In terms of programs, we heard that especially also when it comes to engaging with diaspora and their economic capital. What is needed is to have more knowledge about the diaspora and their interests in terms of investment, their concerns, their expectations. So essentially the need for programming in terms of conducting diaspora mapping. And I think we can make available tools to allow for mapping basically on all four capitals with the diaspora mapping methodology that has been developed by IOM. And which I believe has also been presented and launched during this global diaspora summit. There is also another more specific tool that we have developed in partnership with DMA Global, which allows governments to actually try to disaggregate data on financial contributions from diaspora that go beyond remittances. So we are involving here also the whole of government approach, not just the ministries of diaspora, but the ministries of trade, the ministries of finance, the ministries of tourism. I have already heard that there was a lot of talk about diaspora tourism, but do we have the data to be able to attribute the contribution from diaspora in all these areas. So that's the need for data programming in terms of data collection diaspora mapping. In addition, we have heard from a number of governments in these consultations that they had, again talking about programming, set up startup funds that allow diaspora to set up startup businesses. And yeah, that's also the same. And another country was telling us about the plan to put in place a number of financial products for diaspora. In the short term, they were thinking about setting up with commercial banks a credit line, which would allow diaspora to be accessed for starting up businesses. In the longer term, they were thinking about setting up a bank for diaspora offering specific financial products for diaspora. Now, who are the key actors in governments in countries of origin and governments in countries of residence? So here, once again, the emphasis was made that key actors means the whole of government. And we heard that diaspora is a key actor. A government was making the proposal that diaspora should actually be part of any bilateral dialogue that is happening between a country of origin and country of destination. And finally, the chambers of commerce were mentioned as a key actor, especially when it comes to engage with economic capital. Because chambers of commerce can connect diaspora businesses with businesses back home with investors back home, the banks back at home. And also chambers of commerce, probably in cooperation with diaspora, can help with export of so-called nostalgia goods to promote nostalgia trade. I think that is in short. Can I thank you? That's the time slot has come to an end, but I completely identified with some of your words. And at the present moment, as we set here today, Scottish Business Network, the diaspora organization is working in partnership with the Scottish chambers to deliver a trade mission in Miami, as we speak. So the perfect example. Thank you so much for your time. Could I now turn to Erlan? Thank you, colleagues. I would like to note that we represent different continents and different countries. But nevertheless, we have the same objective. And I'm again persuaded that labour migrants are similar in different countries. They're like brothers or sisters, like twins. Today we've heard a lot of initiatives about lots of initiatives and examples of successes. And different sessions, singled out instances in Kyrgyzstan and in other countries as well, which are very similar to other countries. So I'm not going to reiterate or repeat what has already been said. I'm just going to talk through the main key points, the first one on the first issue. When we talk about the economic capital, yes, I would agree with the presenter from the International Organization for Migration that there are different economic capitals. When we talk about economic capital, it's not just remittances. It's also skills, professional development, which our labour migrants input into our countries together with the economic capital. In our group, we also discuss the issue of the economic capital from the point of view of attracting finance, skills and education. A lot of participants, including myself representing Kyrgyzstan, pointed out that at present economic capital plays an important role, not just in the destination countries, but also the countries of origin. Economic capital or remittances are being sent. For instance, one third of the GDP of Kyrgyzstan consists of remittances, but do they use it correctly, this economic capital? Unfortunately, no. And we had exactly the same picture emerging in other countries and on other continents. What do we need? It is important to use educational programs, awareness raising. These educational programs must and should be used as part of the network systems. We need to share best practices between our countries. It was also the proposal from our group. And of course, everybody welcomed that. They started talking about the Philippines and our Philippine representative, in fact, pointed out that similar programs do exist in the Philippines and they share the experience with other countries. Apart from the economic capital that we have talked about, we talked about attracting or involving diasporas and economic capital. Diasporas play a very important role in the development of the economy of both countries, origin and destination. We also shared experience and talked about the fact that today diasporas become first and foremost as philanthropists beneficiaries or benefactors rather. Secondly, migrants as investors. And third, thirdly, when we talk about global processes in our group, we indicated the possibility of using international programs which are already in operation. In Moldova, colleagues talked about one plus one program. The EU has launched this program very successfully in a number of countries. And today it is also operating in Moldova very successfully. And there are other countries who actively make use of that program in our country, Kyrgyzstan, also has a vested interest in implementing such a program in our country. We're studying it in detail now. There is no point in inventing the wheel, reinventing the wheel. There are lots of examples of successes which could be shared with the rest. Further, when we talk about partnerships, key participants, key members of the partnerships with governments are first and foremost the diaspora organizations. But I would also like to point out that there were other suggestions to use not just the diaspora organizations as partners, but also non-governmental organizations, civil society organizations. These are the same federations of migrations, of migrants, business associations, educational associations at present. Educational associations play a very important role in increasing migrants' potential. In raising that potential, migrants are very flexible participants of the process. They're always ready to learn to improve their skills and their knowledge. Improvement of skills and knowledge should be a priority that's first and foremost. Secondly, we also talked about education for children of migrants, families of migrants, and their wives, particularly women, wives. While their brothers, fathers, sisters working abroad, laboring abroad, the families of migrants, unfortunately, and this picture repeats itself in different countries of Asia, Africa and Eastern Europe. Those families of migrants do not receive the necessary level of attention, so it's important to focus both for the governments, but also for civil society organizations on those families. When we talked about education, we talked about the economic capital. We talked about the fact that our labor migrants, as somebody pointed out correctly, Mr. Campbell pointed out earlier on, 70% of all the monetary resources are being spent into a black hole are being wasted. So our participants pointed out that financial awareness, the correct use of remittances is extremely important. In particular, they noted that there are already functioning small programs on teaching families of migrants, not just migrants themselves, but also educating their families. Time has come to stop the negative procedures of wasting money or spending it to buy luxury housing or luxury cars. It's better to use this money for education, for proper education for migrant children, so that they would not turn into labor migrants themselves, but become educated experts, professionals, particularly as money is already available from their parents for that purpose. Furthermore, sort of the picture has frozen. Thank you, Ulan. It was great to have the translation there so that I could follow your words. Thank you very much for that. Thanks a lot. I'd like to be short. Thank you, sir. I'd now like to turn to Laura, who is in Latin America. Thank you, Ulan. Thank you so much, Ulan. Thank you so much to Tanya as well to Killian for having introduced us. I'm going to try also to be very, very brief so that we can try and catch up with time and also to help you. And so in order to help, there was a presentation that I was going to actually screen share on. I don't know if that's actually being done at the moment. Are you actually able to see a shared screen at the moment? Great. Absolutely brilliant. Right, so my name's Laura Roya. I am the coordinator of the regional diaspora program that's being developed with the IOM from its Buenos Aires office. In this project, we're obviously working on these topics and we've held a workshop within the framework of the South American Conference for Migration and then there was the regional conference that was part of that on migration. And so it's within that context that we actually presented this working dynamic from which we're basically able to get those inputs about the economic capital on the part of the diaspora, which is what I'm going to be presenting to you in this current presentation. So on my first slide here, what we can all see here is specifically the first component of this that we've obviously spoken about with the countries participating and it's to do with political considerations when it comes to achieving agreements or answers. And I think that the first point here was to do with this need to prioritise data generation. You know, there are a lot of organisations that we're all reading from the same hymn book when it came to talking about data collection when it comes to the remittance is really not categorised in any easy to use way, according to the country. And so we had to sort of get away from dwelling on this in a very detailed way, but it's obviously key to be able to create this shared data and the added value therein. And so the second political aspect of all of this that we actually dwelled on actually identified the need as one of the challenges for this was to work on inadequate dissemination of information, which is the only thing it's going to be able to facilitate exchanges between governments of origin countries and destination countries. And so we have to systemise that data and the exchange of this data as well is also central and key to everything that we are speaking about in our work. And I think that we also then need to move on to the programmatic considerations so as to press on and move forward. And I think that some of the countries already made concrete references to some of the programs. I think that one of our colleagues already mentioned that when it comes to actually buying a property. There is this need to articulate the resources available into the diaspora so that we can channel a government programs into these areas. And I think that we can also propose monitoring mechanisms so that we're able to actually control and have some factual counts and evidence on contributions to the country of origin. And this is also overlapping the topics that the previous speakers my colleagues have spoken about as well. And so I think that in terms of associations I just wanted to say that when it comes to linking up with other actors was to be able to achieve some of these objectives what we actually prioritised in our group was conversations on the role of academia. Understanding this to be on models of decision making and analysis of information that would be systematised you know this particular actor or that one might have a lot to bring to the table. And then civil society right we have to talk about the role of representative representatives from diaspora associations and then just briefly the three points that we'd like to prioritise when it comes to economic capital. And when we're talking about economic capital is basically collaboration so as to be able to build those information systems that I've mentioned and also a support network in the origin countries that also has to go hand to hand with institutional initiatives. And then obviously we need to generate joint strategies so that the information available on opportunities is shared with all of the different diaspora communities and this should obviously also include vulnerable groups women and absolutely everyone that's in a vulnerable situation obviously take into account diversity. Thank you so much for giving me the floor and having finished this round. I'm going to pass the mic straight back to you Russell. Building information systems because that's been our experience is using publicly available data and particular platforms to identify diaspora members globally has just been incredible and so cheap. Thank you very much to our speakers. We're now going to enter the next stage which is to bring everyone together to discuss our three questions. So the questions are on policy around economic capital programmatic capital and partnerships and where we see partnerships fitting in. So I think the way that we've been asked to do this session is that we will take the first question and then accept comments from everyone in the room. So if we could just take away the the large language interpretation screen just so that we can see everyone. So the first question and Colleen correct me if I got this wrong it's what can the future agenda document recommend a policy level to achieve global collaborative action on diaspora economic capital. Perfect got it right. Thank you for putting that there. So this is the policy question. So could I ask who would like to come in and unmute yourself to discuss your thoughts on policy. And if I could ask each contributor to keep their comments to no more than two minutes that would be excellent. Thank you. Has anyone got any comments they would like to share on policy. Perhaps if I could ask. Oh sorry. Yes please. And you come. Thank you. I'm going to put from the Godiva representing the Godiva diaspora. We are happy to. Give our recommendation regarding the policy. We've adopted a policy in 2018. That takes into account how we valorize the human capital and how we mobilize the savings of diaspora and how we reinvest in the human capital. And how we mobilize the savings of diaspora and how we reinvest it on this different economic sectors. So we've joined a collaboration between the public treasury of the Godiva and the saving the management of the saving of the diaspora. And we've been able to develop our economy. Regarding how to invest or to involve the diaspora we are working with several investment chambers trade chambers. And the chambre des métiers to valorize different sectors. What partnerships have we have we launched since the beginning so they are public partners but also the African Solidarity Fund. We've signed an agreement in 2019 to implement a way of investing the diaspora saving. And if everything's fine we'll start to see the results this year. I've noted the third question I had a connection issue. So sorry I cannot answer the third question. However I'll end up my contribution right now. I might raise my hand again afterwards. Thank you very much for your contribution. Thank you now. Thank you Connie. We have some other people coming in now. So I'd now like to go to Nudama.  You have your hand raised at the moment. Nudama. Yes thank you very much. Thank you. This is Harry at Nuduma. Maybe Harry to be simpler for you. Yes I'd just like to just share what our experiences back in Kenya. And before I do that let me just say how sorry we are we had some challenges here in Dublin. In terms of our connectivity. But that is all done now. So we are on board. This is a quick contribution to this very exciting debate. Kenya as you know we've been invited here as one of the leading countries. And there is reason to that. Following most of the listeners that have we've had today. The establishment of the formulation of the Kenya diaspora policy way back. Immediately after the ministerial forum. In Geneva and diaspora. 2014. Was the formulation of that policy. And we've made a lot of game. Out of that policy and just. Because the minister of foreign affairs is charged or is mandated to pursue the diaspora policy. With other stakeholders. From ministries from agencies from media from all other stakeholders including the international bodies. And that is good because it has all that approach of government and non stakeholders together. And therefore bringing in what we estimate as three million Kenyans living out in the diaspora. An estimation because Kenyans are not compelled by any law to register with Kenyans missions abroad. And therefore that is an estimated figure that we work with. Depending on the figures we get from our missions. Our achievement in terms of the diaspora is of course the financial remittances. That have taken up our traditional foreign exchange owners. During covid that's where we saw a lot of money coming to the country. Of course families out in the diaspora wanted to help their own families back home. So yes we like speaking about remittances because that is a big deal for us. And what we've seen the policy give us in terms of remitting money. Is the mechanisms that some of our partners of course government agencies like the central bank of Kenya. Reducing the high cost of remitting money. Still high but a lot of a lot of work has gone into that. We've seen the use of ICT using our money and PESA to bring in Kenyans to remit their money. We've seen our own banks actually develop their own desks. Design their own products. Targeted to the diaspora. And therefore for us in Kenya. The policy has done so much in terms of creating intermediary facilities that are provided. The investments are incentives to the diaspora to invest back home. We've seen a lot of public partnerships especially in the real estate in Kenya. However what despite all these good practices and experiences. Our issue of not having a framework an incentive framework to promote diaspora participation. In the national development agenda has been one of our challenges. We really feel that that is an area that probably in this document when you are looking at international cooperation. We should look at how African or countries are going to be assisted in coming up with incentive frameworks that promote a diaspora participation in the sustainable development agenda. The other issue that we feel should also be brought on board is the issue of protection. You know protection of human rights looking into the welfare of our diaspora out there. And then I say our diaspora is not only the Kenyan diaspora but all our diaspora especially in countries that the issue of human rights is of concern. We feel corporations should also look into that over and above investments and the issues of our people's welfare and rights. So yes as a way of contribution that is what I would share for today. Of course the issue of data we really need to have cooperation in data. Of course whether it is supporting governments to have an integrated diaspora information system. I think that would go a long way in gathering data mapping out of course of diaspora. I had a bit of that then I went off the internet so I could not follow the discourse. And of course strengthening our institutions in various countries and documentation centers really. So that we have a seamless flow of information and maintaining of data and updating whatever is out there because we have got some data in one form or the other. But again we need to engage further we need to look into how we can really strengthen that part so that an integrated database of Kenyans living abroad will be there. And of course the other issue is coordination. For us we feel the issue of coordination would be very useful because the stakeholders are many. I think in the case of Kenya we have got over 30 stakeholders and we are counting because again the diaspora is changing the landscape is changing. We know that this might not the station might not obtain in the long run. And therefore the issue of coordination when the process of having to establish our national diaspora council that will champion the diaspora affairs and of course become an advisory body to the government on issues diaspora. And that is one area that we feel the document could also look at how it can help. Naduma kind of kind of thank you for those comments. I think particularly that the concept of framework and data to help to build policy is excellent. But I'm now going to ask our next speaker to come on. Thank you. I'm going to ask Kingsley Aitkins. Can you join in now with your point. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much Russell. Can you hear me OK. Yes. And you know listening to these different people and all those fantastic contributions and learning about what's happening in different countries. I wonder if there's a there's a need for the future agenda document to to have in place some way of if you like an audit of what's happening in all these different places around the world. You know when I started in this game many years ago as you know Russell there was only a few countries involved and then Scotland came along and everybody followed. But it wasn't really you know there wasn't a huge number of people. Now it's extraordinary the number of countries and now it's not just countries it's regions in some cases cities who are developing policies. But there's no it seems to me central depository of knowledge. There's no one place that we could go and find out. I'm learning all the time. But if there was one place and I wonder if the future agenda document could in some way. I recommend that as a potential kind of idea. The other point I was going to make is a new probably the view of this from your own experience in Scotland is who owns who owns the information. You know you start building up the data and the data is basically who are they where are they what are they doing. And you know I work for an organization we built up a database of over 100,000 people around the world. And of course everybody wanted our database because they wanted to sell things to them. So and we didn't want to share that. So in a way there's two contradictory things. The first point I'm saying is this global sharing of what's going on in the space. Where do we could the IOM or could the future agenda be a reflection of that answer that issue. And then the second point is like who owns this information. And if everybody's quite possessive in this totally understandable of what they built up in their own database and how do we get around that issue if we can. So make sense. Absolutely thank you for that contribution and on the point of data. And I've always believed it's the individual that owns their own their own data. They then have the right to share that data with organizations where they wish to be engaged in a particular way. So for example if someone was to share their email with me because they wish to know more about the Scottish more about Scotland. Then it wouldn't be appropriate for them to perhaps meet or perhaps phone them up and try and sell them a website. So I think there's a there's a key there about how we as individuals want to be addressed in that. And what we found just to share a little bit of our personal experience is that we used public platforms where individuals agree to share their data across the platform in a controlled manner. And our most successful platform was linked in. So on a budget of zero. We built a network of 10,000 people globally across 76 countries. And that was because we used a platform where individuals agreed to share that data. I think Kings is other point about measurement. It comes into best practice as well and how we can all share what's worked in our particular area with other diaspora groups because we're unique in this area and that we're not competing. Just to finish this piece. Oh sorry. Daniela you would like to come in. Thank you Kingsley. Thank you so much Russell. This has been a super interesting discussion and obviously there's a lot of interesting data. I do want to propose an extension to that. There's been so much action in the diaspora with different types of policies and programs but kind of like little in terms of evaluating interventions across the board. In different sectors across different countries in a systematic way. So there's a lot of anecdotal evidence a lot of descriptives, but when it comes to like measuring the magnitude of that impact and then drawing insights on in a systematic way on what types of interventions can be generalized. I mean there's been a lot of talk around exporting the Irish diaspora engagement model, but that's done kind of in an ad hoc way. So if there's a more systematic approach to evaluating diaspora policies, then we can also move into deciding what elements are useful and effective when we think of scaling diaspora models or coming up with frameworks that could be successful to guide countries for looking to move into this space. Oh, that's excellent. Thank you so much for that contribution. And I think, is it possible that what we're trying to do is to come up with a common language and a common set of terms, whereby in different parts of the world we can discuss how these things are working, how we're engaging and how successful we are being. If he's here I was going to ask Kelly are you able to come in, just to say a few words on policy. Sorry. Yes, I mean, in terms of policy, we had a session earlier on diaspora philanthropy and I think there's a crossover here on engagement and I think from the IOM perspective, there's two fundamental principles here. The first being that the ownership for policy, for diaspora engagement policy, for diaspora investment needs to come high up within government. I think we've seen that with Jamaica's example today. And then secondly, and then also the example from Jamaica is that it needs to be coordinated across government. Okay, so the person might sit in the Foreign Affairs Ministry, whatever, but you need a whole of government approach to diaspora. So you end up mainstreaming diaspora engagement policy across all policies at worst. So there's a diaspora migrant take on all aspects of policy or as much as possible. And we heard from Harriet and the Kenyan example that trying to get that international development policies is crucial. So so they're the kind of two overriding principles are from a policy level, high level ownership and in coordination across government, a whole government approach to this. Thank you. Thank you for that. I'd now like to move us on to the second question, which is, what can the future agenda document recommend in terms of programs for diaspora engagement to diaspora economic capital. So what kind of programs do we think could be useful to introduce? I've got a little bit of a question for the group as well on that subject. So if I was to go and meet a wealthy Scott in America, and I was to explain to him what I was doing and how he could contribute and help. He would not recognize himself as being part of something called a diaspora. He may recognize himself as being a Scott or having families with connections with Scotland. But the word diaspora doesn't seem to quite resonate. And I'm wondering if the word is correct and do we need a program to try to educate the world as to what this word means. And do we all have the same definition of diaspora? For example, in my world, you can be part of the Scottish diaspora. Even if you've got no family links, no educational links, and really you've never visited Scotland. But in my diaspora, if you have a passion for the concept of Scotland, then you can become part of our diaspora. So I think that's my idea about from a program perspective. What do you think, for what programs do you think we should be introducing and defining to go into the future agenda document for suggesting? Yes, Lincoln. Thank you, Russell. I couldn't agree with you more in terms of the definitions. In terms of Jamaica, we talk about the big D and the small D, the big D being diaspora and the small D being community. And that's the challenge we have when we are on the front lines at our overseas missions. And it's a bit of a dance that you have to do in courting. So when you mentioned the high net worth individuals, we treat them in terms of a separate entity in itself. You have to have targeted programs. I wanted to elaborate a little bit on the economic diplomacy program that Minister Campbell mentioned. There's a subset and initiative called the Honor Investment Advisor initiative where we utilize diasporas, for instance, for business leads and investment based on their skill sets, based on their connections. And we have at least two of our diasporas in that program, one in Japan and one here in Toronto, Canada. And for the one in Canada, I can indicate that within a year so far, he has been able to generate three business leads in construction and manufacturing to the tune of four million US dollars. So that's an example of how you can utilize your high net worth individuals. So a program targeted specifically for high net worth individuals should be considered as a programmatic contribution to the document. An excellent example and I have to tell you, Lincoln, you're speaking to my heart. That's my world that you have described. I almost feel a bit like an actor in this particular session, because of course, Scotland is not a country.  So because of that, we have a different way to actually communicate with our diaspora, people who recognize themselves as Scottish. And the approach we took was to appoint ambassadors. So today we have 30 38 city ambassadors around the world, and they engage with the high net individuals in their cities who are Scottish to explain the programs we are running the projects and how they can contribute and take part. But thank you for that.  Please come in. Thanks Russell. I just have a comment. I just said that like your diaspora is multinational. Unfortunately, the Kyrgyz diaspora is ethnic. It is ethnic. And I would say Kyrgyz diaspora is really young. Like Kyrgyzstan, Kyrgyz Republic, we got our independence with the collapse of Soviet Union. So it's been only 30 years. And we are just start learning how to become a real diaspora. Let's say 15, 10 years ago, it wasn't a diaspora. It was a public association of Kyrgyz abroad. But for the past 10, 15 years, what we have noticed that they try to become a real diaspora they learn. So when we talk about the programming and the program, I would say capacity building programs for young diasporas. And networking with the old diasporas with, I don't know, we have the diasporas in Europe, in Western Europe. We have diasporas in Africa and the US, for example. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to connect the young diasporas with all the one with experienced one with a strong one with rich diasporas. And the capacity building, education and networking. I mean, when we talk about the programming, yes. And of course, of course, these young diasporas, they must, they should become a multinational. Because Kyrgyzstan is, we have more than 90 nationalities in our small, beautiful country. We're more than 6 million, like Kyrgyz, it's 6 million and something, but more than 90 nationalities. So young diasporas, they shouldn't be a technical. They must be multinational. I mean, we need to globalize. Just in short, thanks. Wonderful. What a great insight. Thank you for that, Ulan. And now if I could move to Sirvar. Yes, hello. Thank you for having me. I represent the government of Armenia. I work at the diaspora office in Armenia. We have several programs that we've tried to come up with to increase engagement with the diaspora. One of them is the youth ambassadors. So we invite them to Armenia. We, we tell them about our story. And then when they go back home, they have one year that they have to be involved and engage with, with the country. So, and kind of create a bridge between their country of residence and the homeland. We also have another program called Igor's that I'm part of. I'm a fellow that attracts diaspora Armenians professionals who have to have a bachelor's degree or a master's with work experience. And the goal of this program is for to attract talent from abroad, from a diaspora to work in public institutions in Armenia. So I think that would be some of the ways in which we would, we create engagement with the diaspora, but we're also coming up with an initiative. We actually made a survey that was sent out to our network in a diaspora, which is related to diaspora bonds. Why? Because there are four ways of economic engagement from the diaspora to Armenia. One of them is premises. The other one is charity. The other one is opening of a business or real estate. So this would be a way for them to invest and get some profit and then also be more involved in the policies that the government is taking in Armenia. And also that was spring from the ties between the diaspora and the country. So let's hope the government we just submitted the report last night. So let's hope that the government gives us a green light and we can go ahead with us with that. But that that is what we're doing right here. What an excellent insight from Armenia that that is just you're absolutely spot on with those examples of projects. May I ask the group on this subject? Do we believe that government plays a critical part in this area of diaspora? Or is it possible to run a diaspora without government involvement? Because if we're talking about policies and projects, we're all talking about involving government. Russell, if I'll just state bear with an observation this morning, a session of philanthropy, a similar question was asked. But the takeaway there was that the governments play a facilitating role in much of the engagement that they aren't necessarily solely the executioners. It's about partnerships, about stakeholders. And I'll leave it at that if someone else wants to come in. But that was just to take away from this morning's session. I think it's relevant to the question you guys. That's excellent. Thank you. There are some hands up. I'm not sure Kingsley, Servart, Nodami, have you just stopped taking your hands down or do you want to come in? Actually, I took it down and put it up. Is that, is that allowed? Sorry, I missed that. No, no, so just pick it up in a few of your points because I actually sorry. Okay, I know you you talked about the Scottish ambassadors, which is fantastic. Copenhagen as a city have global ambassadors around the world. So I think that's a really good model. And I think lots of us would like to learn more about how that operates and how effective it is and how do you do it? I love the fact you mentioned through LinkedIn, it cost you zero because I find in diaspora engagement, zero is a very compelling price point when you're trying to do something. So that's great. But I would ask the question, for example, with you, Russell, who knows all the Scottish dentists in the world? Or who knows all the Scottish vets in the world? And generally, when you ask that question of a country, the answer is actually nobody. And sometimes the professional organizations do because the reason is you get Scottish dentists together from all around the world. They've got a lot in common. It's in their self interest to engage with these fellow dentists around the world. So I think that that's that's a thing that's yet to really happen because we don't have the data and we have to be able to put that stuff together. But I think there's real potential there. I mean, and I mentioned that word self interest because that's something that drives a lot of diaspora engagement. Bill Gates famously said the two great drivers of mankind is self interest and helping others, which is a lovely kind of sort of sort of contradiction. So I was just going to say, these are things have been made possible by big data, which were in this world of big data, where you can really drill into hundreds of millions of pieces of data. There's a company in Paris called Onomastix, a guy called Eliane Carson of Namsor, and particularly for countries like Lithuania or Armenia or even Scotland and Ireland, they're very distinctive surnames. So you can start mapping. So when they did a project where they found Lithuanians working in the bio science industries in the United States, and they actually resulted in an inward investment from some of these people that was identified using big data. That's a bit of a game changer. So that's an interesting kind of evolution and a way of using the potential out there through technology. Great examples, things like great examples. Sorry, is someone looking to come in? Yes. Yes, Lincoln. Thank you. I neglected to introduce myself. I'm the Council General of Jamaica at Toronto. I wanted to respond on behalf of the team with respect to whether government should be involved. Our experience from 2003 is that government brought together the diaspora from the UK, Canada and the USA along with our private sector, what we call our legacy partners, three, four main principles. And what we did subsequent to that early consultation was to have a conference which started in 2004. So we have these biennial conference, inclusive of one to be held in June of this year. In the interregnum, what we did was to engage international development partners, the IOM, among others. And at every level, our missions overseas are at the forefront of this engagement. For instance, myself here in Toronto, it is, we have a huge diaspora, well over 250,000 and over 300,000 in Canada as a whole, over 1.7 million in the US and 800,000 in the United Kingdom. This for us is central to the work that we do. Representation is strong for us. We engage our private sector partners on a daily, weekly, monthly basis in terms of literacy programs, in terms of events. Also, we spearhead as a government program where we honor our diaspora through the Governor General's Achievement Awards. And so for us in Jamaican colleagues in the Caribbean governments are at the centre because we are the ones, especially our missions overseas are the ones that the community respects and regards to pull the communities together, which is why I was speaking earlier of the Move and Shake Initiative through the Honor Investment Advisor program. And we do the same with academia. Recently, here in Toronto, we collaborated with our Jamaica Tourist Board, the Ministry of Tourism and the Global Tourism Resilience and Crisis Management Centre to establish a satellite office at George Brown College, which will focus on research and entrepreneurship. So that's another example. I noted Kilian had in his paper, Economic Diplomacy, but also as it relates to how we engage academia. That's relevant for the country of residence as it is for countries of origin. So we have to look at how we can scope some of these projects and they are not exclusive to countries of origin or country of residence. But it takes consultation and that's the point I want to leave us with that governments really bring the stakeholders together. That is the key and in mainstreaming it across all governments, private sector and civil society. It's the government, depending on your government, of course, but that is our experience. What an excellent point to have made there, Lincoln. Thank you so much for coming in. Yes, Ulan. May I just add something? I represent Council for Migration under the Speaker of the Kyrgyz Republic Parliament. So one year and four months ago, we didn't have this council. When the Speaker of the Parliament visited Moscow, he met Moscow diaspora in Russia and they asked to establish Council for Migration under the Speaker. Let me tell you why because they need the help of the decision makers at the top level, the high level. Unfortunately, young diasporas like Kyrgyz one, they do not have enough, let's say, capacity. They do not have enough experience. They cannot directly talk to Russian decision makers. So what they do, they just address to the Council for Migration with their problems and ask the Speaker of the Parliament to solve it with his colleague in Moscow. And believe me, this is how it works today. I mean, it works. It worked out. And the young diasporas, of course, we have different types of diasporas, but young diasporas like Kyrgyz one, they need the help. They need the help of the government. They need the help of top level decision makers. So I truly believe, yes. Excellent. Thank you so much for that. And if you don't mind, I'm going to move on to the third question now. Can I make a contribution? Yes, please. Thank you very much. Just a quick one for us. Yes, just like my previous speakers, the issue of government being at the centre of a diaspora diplomacy is very important. Because the government plays a key role in the eighth in Kenya. In fact, diaspora pillar is one of our five interlinked pillars of our foreign policy. And therefore, for us to be able to harness any diverse knowledge, skills and expertise from the Kenyans, the facilitative role. And I just wanted to reiterate the facilitating role of the government in advancing the diaspora diplomacy is very, very important. And in fact, the implementation of the policies or whether it is development of institutional frameworks as well as legal that looks at the matters diaspora, the government plays a key role. Thank you very much. Thank you now. I'm now going to move on to that third question, which and diaspora diplomacy will come into this. And the third question is about partnerships. What should that advice be for the future agenda document? When we talk about partnership, who should these partners be? How should we engage with them? And I have to tell you, this is my specialist subject. So what we've discovered is finding organisations who wanted to partner and then working out a common goal whereby our own self interest could still be met by achieving the common goal that we and the partner would aim to achieve has been a game changer. And what we also discovered is partnerships can be quite a strange thing. They require a lot of work, but you may end up engaging in partnering with organisations which you didn't even identify as a potential partner at the start. So we've seen that partnership with celebrity, for example, can have a huge game changer for us where we now live in a world of influencers and to partner with an influencer whereby we can bring out their engagement with Scotland and their relationship there and they can then tell their followers really broadcast our message better than any marketing campaign we could have done. So I'd like to bring in Sir Vart now to talk about the subject of partnerships. Well, yes, as I'm sure you all know, King Kardashian is of Armenian descent. She's one of the most, the one that has one of the most numbers on Instagram. I don't know. She's one of the most followed people on earth. So she she has been amazing in that respect into regarding creating awareness regarding the Armenian genocide or the war that when we were attacked by Azerbaijan in the war of 2020. So I think they do have a key role and they they help to raise awareness in what's going on in the country, especially in diaspora and also people who are not or who do not where Armenia is located, for instance, and they do their research. King Kardashian is talking about this. They go on Google and they do the research about what's going on in Armenia. So I think they play a key role in engaging not not only diaspora but also people who are not of Armenian descent. That is such an excellent point. No, there are people in our diaspora who don't know that in our diaspora, but when they find out they love it. Mutond or Muten Rogers. Would you like to come in? Thank you, Russell. Let me make my comments on partnerships. We all understand that the current world depends so much on partnerships. You can't wish it away, but in the case of Kenya, I see a lot of partnership between the government and the diaspora. The people themselves form a part and parcel of this partnership. But apart from that, we appreciate the role of corporate entities in shaping government and dialogic government come up with strategies that facilitate the movement of diaspora economic capital. You are talking of companies, you're talking of large multinationals and banking sector and their interest in receiving, their interest in transferring and their interest in providing platforms to save and to invest diaspora capital back in the country. But on the other side, I'm looking at the diaspora as people who still have social and cultural attachment to their home country and their communities. Therefore, I'm knowing in a well-organized government diaspora in a destination country, we are able to know the origin of this diaspora and therefore it will be important and possible to engage the community that remained behind in order to make sure that the diaspora economic capital is well taken care of. In Kenya, we have had complaints of diaspora meeting or investing back home, but when they come back physically, you don't find what you are sending, you don't find anything. Maybe you invested in real estate, you invested maybe in stocks and that. You find the information you are given maybe by your relatives back in the country was wrong and you come, you have to go back to the government and ask the government to play the role of a number, to play the role of an adjudicator. That's why a partnership should have the three pillars, the government, the diaspora, the corporate and that is four pillars and the community where the diaspora originates from and originate from I mean in the country of origin. Thank you. Thank you. That was very useful. Who would like to come in next to discuss the subject of partnerships? Nordia. Hi everyone. I'm Nordia and I'm from Jamaica and I'm honored to be here. And as I heard of partnerships, it speaks volumes to what is needed in diasporas. One thing to bring visibility, but there are a lot of persons within the different diasporas who want to invest in their country but just don't know how. Simply documentation, they may have difficulties accessing understanding because they may have left their country for years or they will be first generations who have no idea of what to do. So my recommendation is that you have strategic partners who work along either with the government or the existing diaspora or organization in these various countries to educate the diaspora about what to do, how to do it, when to do it, when is the right time to buy a property, where to buy a property for example. What do I need to know? What tax ID? What other documentations I need to? How about my birth certificate? All those things. So my company, which is integrated diaspora services for example, based in Jamaica to serve the diaspora, I'm actually in the U.S. now because we're doing pop-up shops across different spaces to educate the diaspora. How do I do it and hold their hand and show them how to get back to Jamaica and ensure it is executed because we believe every person in Jamaica is connected to Jamaica. You need to know how to do what to do in your country. And that is how they can effectively contribute the economic growth and development of their country when they know how to and they have their hand holding in executing same. What a wonderful point to raise. And you also remind me of the similarity of the world we're all in but we're not competing. So on Thursday and Friday next week I will be in Manhattan at a pop-up Scottish shop whereby we are sharing some products and services from Scotland. So it's the same across the world. We're all taking these same actions. And do you believe with me, Nardia, that I think diaspora is still a very early stage and over the next 10 years this is going to become a major economic driver for countries? It is a major economic driver for countries and all we have to do really is put all those collaborative energies and synergies and expertise together to empower people, bring it all together, inform, empower and build our different countries. Wonderful. Thank you, Nardia. I think we'll all have to go to Jamaica to learn more about the secrets that you have. Could I turn to Kingsley? Yeah, listen, I think that was a fantastic contribution and I mean they've all been really fascinating contributions. I just backped a little bit back to the government debate because I think the real partners very often are government because governments have things that the rest of us don't have. They've got kind of clout. They've got resources. They've got smart, well educated people running their operations. They've got money. You know, they've got status. People will go to events in an embassy. I think I'm going to an event in the British Embassy in Dublin for the Scottish Accountancy in the next week or two. I see that on my agenda. I think that's great. Nobody told you. I think also, you know, the second thing was just about celebrity. I think that's really interesting. I mean, last week Glasgow Celtic had an event in New York City and the Rod Stewart was the key.  But I mean, that was a use of celebrity. It raised a lot of money and attracted a terrific array of people from that area. But I think the piece that hasn't really quite happened yet, and I think that will fuel your thought of 10 years from now would be a totally different place. I think that's the that's the engagement of corporates, of great corporates who will begin increasingly, and we need to really convince some of this, begin to realize that this is a market opportunity, that there's commercial realities in this. Now, the airlines are getting it now. The tourism people get it. But I don't think quite yet the technology companies get us. And I think that that's going to be really fascinating. And as you know, we now live in a world where it's more important what you do than where you are. You know, the old days geography dictated your identity, but now because of technology, you can be, you can be anywhere and do this job. I mean, nobody knows where I am today or where you are today. And yet we're carrying on a bit of business together. So I think that they're the sorts of dynamics out there, which are all very well for this sector for the next decade. Thank you, Kingsley. That's excellent. Anyone else wanting to come in? Sir Vart, are you wanting to come in? Yes, I think Kingsley said something that is very valid. Us, our experience with the diaspora is that they want to do something, but they don't know how. So I feel like I believe that the government should be the point person in that sense. I also believe that celebrities and influencers have this reach that the government can't. Our social media is not as engaging as Kim Kardashian or Dan Bilzerian or other Armenians or ethnic Armenians who live abroad. I think that's especially Serge Tantian, who is the singer of System of a Down. He has a lot of followers and he keeps posting things that are happening in Armenia or he posts the programs that the government is running. For instance, e-cords, the one, if it weren't for e-cords, I'm from Argentina. If it weren't for e-cords, I wouldn't be living in Armenia. So I think that these influencers and celebrities are key and they have this outreach that even the government cannot, even with money or with other resources, we can't reach. So I think it should be a key facilitator in engaging in diaspora. I think that that term of everyone on this call is a key facilitator as well because you all have a passion for your particular nation, your particular diaspora that you're supporting. And just to follow on to what Sir Barton Kingsley said there, the single most common question I get asked by individuals around the world when we discuss the diaspora, the single most common question they ask me is, Russell, how can we help? It's interesting that actually perhaps what we need is a library of projects which these individuals can then engage with. There may be an investment project or a philanthropic project and I sometimes feel rather than making them up on the spot, I should actually have a library of these projects. The other thing about this area of partnerships, I think it's about broadcasting the fact you have the partnership as well. Because we have a partnership with the Scottish government, that doesn't mean so much in some countries. In other countries it's very important because it means we've got a level of endorsement. The partnership that we have with a number of the technology groups within Scotland is important as we reach out and we can build from their brand. So I think partnerships is critical to all of us. Would anyone else like to come in to discuss this point or really to make any final comments because we've only got 15 minutes left. And I'd like to make sure we finish on time. So any other comments, please come in and share your thoughts on what you've heard today. Yes, I would like to just say that the partnerships with the diaspora is very important if we want to make them become the main drivers in the implementation of some of our national development programs. So partnering with the diaspora and then another stakeholders is very key. In Kenya, I think what we've seen again with the diaspora and that's why partnerships are important is the issue of trust. So we really have to build trust and confidence. Then we have to have effective engagement through partnerships. Thank you. Thank you now for that trust. Absolutely essential. I've got one idea about partnerships which we don't really talk about which is partnerships between diaspora organizations. So for example, if my organization Scotland partnered with the diaspora of Turkey, what we could perhaps deliver together could we be identifying people of members of the Turkish diaspora in Scotland and they could identify people of the Scottish diaspora in Turkey are these other partnerships that we can explore. But I think Kingsley at the key, which is at some point over the next five to 10 years, big business is going to realize the need to be involved in this space. And we must be ready on how what terms we're going to partner with them to make sure that we're not doing all the hard work at the moment. And then the big businesses come in and perhaps make the profit out of it all. So I want to make sure that we are attracting this investment to do the right things within our countries. I also think just to pick up on that Russell, I think you touch on a really interesting point. We all think of diaspora were chased the Scottish diaspora, the Irish diaspora, the New Zealand diaspora in our own countries. There are really interesting groups of diasporas. So I've been training the Lithuanians in Dublin. And I think it's in Ireland's interests, like 25% of the working population of Dublin were not born in Ireland. So Google of 10,000 people in Dublin, 8,500 of them are not Irish. So we've attracted in all these terrific individuals, fabulously smart and well educated, and they're a great resource for Ireland. I'm trying to convince the government here that we should be working and helping and helping those organizations capacity build and grow and become raised money and all that kind of stuff.  I think we should do this as part and parcel of servicing these people and making them feel welcome. But also there's an economic benefit in that because it'll result in increasing connections or relations back to their home countries, which is going to be good for everybody. Absolutely. Great point, Kingsley. And again, I go back to Nodama's point about trust. So trust is at the centre of all of it. We're just coming to the end and I'm not quite sure from the agenda, but I wondered if the Honourable Leslie Campbell wanted to come in to say a few words. Thank you, Mr Daglish. Not the Kenny. We know it's the first. You know, you really had me on that one. It's been a really interesting discussion taking place and particularly as it relates to the partnerships for our own part. We realize that we have the United Nations development goals to be met. And what we have been doing in recent times is to engage those groups with technical competence and know how to do the things which would help us to meet those developmental goals. So for instance, let's say in the energy sector, we have or diasporas who have the know how and technical competence and who are perhaps in Namibia or residing someplace else. And we have been engaging with such and trying to establish partnerships with such individuals to bring that technical know how so that to achieve or I think our target is to achieve 50% of renewables by 2030. So those are the areas that we tend to and another area in relation to food security, trying to engage or diasporas who have the know how we have some people in the UK who have done great things and we're trying to pull those together. But generally, I think it is a most rewarding area for instead of a man being awarded say what a national partner of the order of Jamaica or whatever it is, if he's part of that body of work and which really drives Jamaica forward and to take people out of poverty, that I think it's much more rewarding than another area we've found that in the broader technology area, and particularly it's been highlighted because of COVID-19, our education sector has a really big battle. Our children, you know, lost two years or three years for that matter of engagement and so that we have that deficit, and we have to find partnerships with or to establish partnerships with people who can develop content and all of that. So that in the, we won't suffer too badly, because when those people who were we expect to be in the working world and next next five years suffer this, we certainly won't be able to compete. And so it is important that as we move along the trajectory that we continue to engage and, you know, to benefit from and at the same time, the persons who are engaging with us would benefit from providing the technologies and the know how and all of that. So may I just encourage all of us who, because I believe we've suffered in different ways, and I think that is an area that we ought to focus on. But generally, I think the partnership, you know, is really the way to go.  And I think that sums up for us where we are approach to partnerships. Thank you. And I thank you for those incredibly powerful words that's, I think, raised the discussion up to the magnitude of what we can achieve. And just in this act of partnership, I'll share my LinkedIn details in the chat if anyone wants to connect or follow up with anything, and I'll attempt to help you any way I can. This has been an incredibly useful way to spend two hours for me. I'm new to all this. I'm only five years in. It's four years since I first heard the word diaspora. I wasn't aware of the word. Next week I'll be in Manhattan in New York with an enormous Scottish flag taking part in a celebration of Scottish connections with America. This was something, an event tartan day that I was unaware of four years ago. And I would urge everyone to run projects within your country to identify these diaspora assets we have around the world, because there's such a way to bond together our community. So the findings from this particular session will now be analyzed and we'll go forth into the report. And I'd like to just thank everyone. It's been an absolute pleasure to spend time with you today. Any final words, Kingsley? You thought about your hand up? My final word is a great job, Russell. I thought you did a super job and hats off to you and the Scottish Business Network and all who sail in it. Good luck. Thank you everyone. It's been a privilege to meet you all. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thanks. Thank you. Goodbye everyone. Bye.


Face at the front, I don't bite often. Yeah, I just said, what's up? There are some greasy laps, whatever you want. Alright guys, thank you all for coming. Welcome to the March Meetup, guys. The best turnout so far, so thank you all for being here. Thank you also for being here on time for the pizza. We have a cool lineup for you guys today, but before that I wanted to check, as always, who are our first timers? Awesome. Okay, so it's because of you guys that this group keeps growing more and more, and I'm sure you've already done this by now, but if you haven't, please feel free to come and talk to any one of us and tell us who you are, what you're doing, we'd love to get to know you, we'd love for you to come back and maybe give a talk at some time, and I'll talk more about that in a second. I also wanted to thank our sponsors Paypal for the venue and for the awesome food. Thank you so much, Paypal. Paypal's been really awesome, and I hope you guys have all enjoyed the pizza. I also wanted on a more somber note to say that, I mean, we all know, I think by now most of you have read the news, and the nation from what I read is going to be in mourning until Sunday. So for that reason, I don't have cute gifts for you this evening. I'm not going to crack too many jokes, but I wanted to observe him ahead of silence if you guys think that that's appropriate in the honor of a great late morning. With the coffee machine, I think we can all say that he's made many contributions to the community here, if not for him. So I just wanted to pay some respect and thank you all for your understanding. I also wanted to shout out and say that if you have anything you'd like to speak about, so I'm going to do the usual song and dance, please come speak at the next meet-up, but really it's very fun. You get to learn more about how to speak in public, you get to present the kind of things that you've done work on, and you get to meet a lot more cool people because people are going to ask questions, people are going to come up to you and say, hey, I think that was awesome, let's work on this together. So if you've been working on something for a while, if you've had a breakthrough on one of your projects and you've figured out how to do something like, aha, okay, I have to share this with the world, you can write a blog post or you can come here and talk to us, or you can do both. It doesn't have to be very long, five, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, anything like that. And if you want to get in touch, you can ping either me or Winston. Our content details are here. They're always on the Meetup page as well, so you can always get in touch with us. And you can always get in touch with us through Facebook or through the Facebook page, whatever you guys like. Also, shout out to the Rails Girls Meetup, which is having this morning. At 10 a.m., the usual details, it's going to be on ThoughtWorks, it's going to be at 10 a.m., and if you'd like to volunteer to be a mentor, or if you know a Rails girl or if you know a girl who would like to become a Rails girl, please feel free to spread the message. All right? So our lineup today is pretty awesome. We're going to have a couple of PayPal engineers to tell us about automating tasks with Capigar and how they do that here in PayPal. And we're also going to hear from Ted Tinkerbox, who's going to talk about overcoming the inertia of writing tests, which I think is a topic we can all relate to. And finally, Mike will round us up with five random Ruby tips. And a shout out to those of you who have any announcements, job opportunities, or anything you want to say. There will be some space at the end, and I will let you guys know. Feel free to come up and say something. So without further ado, can I invite our friends from PayPal to give the first talk.