for the whole thing. This is the build OGM call on Tuesday, September 21, 2021, which is equinox. So I hope everybody's feeling, I hope everybody's feeling very balanced. Yeah, that's true. Actually, it's tomorrow, but generally the 21st is when I like market. Are you feeling a sense of equanimity, balance? No? Yeah, me neither. Yeah. And so generally, there's kind of a small cascading sequence of things, which is it would be nice for us to have a better image of where we're heading together, which means I need to finish transcribing my drawings into diagrams dot net diagrams so that we can make them easily available as layers of a mosaic of a kind of a vision of why we're doing what we're doing and how we're doing it, which then would cascade down into project teams working on different parts of this, which would cascade over into fundable projects that are tiles in the mosaic, which would then spill back into build OGM, which if it grew, if we should be so fortunate that build OGM starts to actually get a little bit unwieldy and bigger, we would then immediately sort of subdivide into different project groups that could then manage different parts of this thing that we're sort of building. So it's two things. One of them is you don't actually have to start at the top of that. You can start anywhere in and flesh it out from there, right? Another thing is we could literally do that in the next 15 minutes. We could literally grab diagrams dot net and start stacking what you just said. And I have the diagrams as drawings in JPEGs, I guess. Yeah, I've got a stack of JPEGs, which we could use and we could easily crowd sort and diagrams likes multi user right. Yeah, sort of like Miro, I've never done diagrams multi user. Yeah, it works fine multiplayer. It was the like there that got me. Okay. It doesn't have a preference. This is software animated isn't software conscious. Some of it is some of it's not actually it's it's increasingly becoming I mean there's all sorts of interesting articles about that. And then I tried to transform it users like multiplayer diagrams and that's kind of true kind of not. I love multiplayer stuff. Nobody likes software. Nobody likes software. Everybody hates software. Raise your hand if you like software on balance. Like if you add up the pluses and the minuses. If you add up the pluses and the minuses it lands positive for me most of the time, even, even, even things with cranky interfaces often land positive because I'm there using the fricking thing because doing something I actually need. Maybe it's one of the, I love software in general and a lot of software in particular. I like that a lot that expresses it well. And maybe also, you know how some kings would take little bits of venom for a long time to become immune to the venom. Maybe, maybe my exposure to software through my 12 years as a tech analyst listening to pitches and trying a whole bunch of software because I used to say it's my job to waste my time so you don't have to. It's a little sort of fun pitch line now and then maybe that's desensitized me to just how awful the whole experience is and I have like an unknown sort of softness for fondness for cranky software. Who knows. But I know a lot of people who hate software in general. And it was King Mithradis. Yes. Thank you. And it's also a plot point in the Baroque cycle. And in Princess Bride Princess Bride that's where I was going next that's exactly where I was going next. And I can't do visiting these little speech about now you're wondering if I'm taking if I first switch the glasses so I so I'm not going to do do not ever engage in a land war in Asia. Yeah, I wonder if you've got drawings already. Do they need to be recreated in diagrams on that. My instinct is that that would be helpful because we would like to add and move things around to what I drew. I mean, I did an organizational bubbles right and I thought later of a couple bubbles that aren't on the diagram like I don't think I'm not sure that Linesburg is in that is in the constellation. Linesburg ought to be in the constellation and then the things kind of on the far side of Linesburg should be a little bit on the far side of Linesburg like UFC. Right. And so that that would be interesting to be able to kind of add in so I think yes. I don't want to stop this conversation right now to go do that but I'm interested in crowdsourcing the drawings into something we can kind of update and keep using so I love the idea. I kind of want to go around and see a little bit what priorities we sense. So my, I have in front of me. So, so, so here's an update. I had a I've had a couple conversations with Jim rut. Jim rut is the sort of the spark of game be at this point, but back in the day he was the CEO of network solutions. He's kind of a, an old older white guy with white here and kind of this here. And, but but with a really nice heart and like lots of interesting instincts about what to do and how to go about doing it, who's made his fortune back in the day because he sold net solutions, and that's all to verisign, I think on the day of the crash for 50% above, you know, the market value of their stock and so that went that actually closed and went well. And then he's done a few other things since then but he's become kind of a bit of the center of game B, which is clearly an og me community that we would love to help and be connected to and all that. And we were just sort of talking and brainstorming on stuff because, because we liked each other's sort of thinking. And at the end of the last call last week, either Thursday or Friday. I was like, him, this may be coincidence I'm not sure but at noon today I sent off a letter to one of the entities we were going to invest in. And, and back on record. So, my, my old friend, Marie bearded, who long ago was with Qualcomm and then kind of retired out. She is really energized about some of these things and helping build some part of this so she's helping me look at the proposal and figure out you know what it is and we've spent a couple calls. In the last couple days, looking at kind of the bigger picture what is the well, and I'm going to miss exactly framing it, how she's looking for but she's trying to figure out what is the focus and what are the boundaries of this quest so that it can be not chewing on everything, which I appear to like to do. Digesting the world is an attempt to digest the world, but it's an attempt to do some very specific things while digesting the world so I think the, I think that the process and actions are really specific. But I think that the scope of activity is pretty huge. So, so it does kind of get pretty big pretty quickly. So, thoughts or comments or recommendations or suggestions besides talk to Lauren and Mr Bobo. About the grand proposal or. Yes, and that structure and then we'll go back to sort of build a GM framing. Okay, thank you very much jump in. A question. What is. Sorry, it was Mark Caronzo. But you're muted we can't actually hear you so it sounds like you're pantomime which is really entertaining actually Hank. A question. What is weaving the world. Such a good question. So, so in a call. A month ago now I don't remember I'm bad with dates Pete asked a really good question he said is OGM, an organization or is it a movement and a hashtag and kind of ended up at the end of that call with like less organization more movement hashtag.  And then, then as things sort of materialized in the midst. I was like, you know what we kind of need, or what I think we need, and I'm totally happy to take a better tack that this is really sort of framed up in my head well is a show that looks smells like walks like a doc talks like a doc looks like one of the now probably a million podcasts and blogs out there. And if anybody knows what's happened to the semantics of vlog and podcasts because there appear to be a lot of podcasts that are now not audio only that are video audio blah blah blah blah blah blah. I don't know what the what the actual moniker for these things is going to become, you know, 10 years down the road, but on the surface, and I'm using this above ground below ground kind of metaphor which we've been kind of using here a bit. On the above ground it looks and smells like a normal podcast me which means it has episodes. It has an intro and an outro. It looks a little bit more professional than the videos that I upload daily from our calls here, which are in fact conversations that with a little bit of framing would look and smell just like a podcast, and anybody watching our stream and there's a, you know, there's a couple dozens of people who are actually downloading and watching our videos would be getting a more organized version of that. I just want to be called weaving the world with a goal toward going and visiting people whose ideas are helping fix the world's problems and connect up the world and there's a lot of those trying to do it and I had this idea in the shower this morning. And the Howard's in people's history kind of approach where where the books, the books concept is, hey, let's go talk to the people who got squished in the process of doing this. So a bit of the roadmap for weaving the world would be not to go to the like older white guys who have good ideas of whom there are plenty, but to go to other people and try to be of service to them. And kind of to avoid intellectual property issues, but also because it's interesting to do some at least the beginning to go do original interviews and to go sit with people and sort of process things. And then I think I think a piece of what led to Jim saying hey, what could you do with 25 grand was, I was showing him how when I show up to a conversation I'm not showing up with a blank canvas. I'm showing up with a whole bunch of stuff already about the person their thoughts and their context. And so as I take notes during a particular call I'm clicking that together. And then, when I post process and when other people post process, and when it's not just me at the fungus face with one tool, but it begins to become collaborative. I think really good things start to happen I think that I think that he could he could start to imagine. And I realized that most people don't have this understanding of what it's like to have a context that's actually durable and usable over time. Like I'm having such an unusual experience and I take it so for granted that I don't come back to this point. Right. So, so we go talk to Matsukata or something like that. And the history of technology and who funded it and all that. I just have a ton of stuff, and it's not nearly as pretty as her as her book lays it out so and I haven't read her book. So a piece of that would be how to arrange it how to improve it but I'm not starting from scratch. Right. So weaving the web is above ground and then below ground we're doing ogemi things with the materials of that sequence of polls and everything else that's an asset on the web, and we're trying to feed the big fungus, because leave cutter ants can't, you know, can't metabolize leaves, but they feed the tribe by collaboratively putting together all those kinds of, you know, the nutritious bits, the tasty bits. Sorry April was distracting me with a ping, which is not urgent. So that's kind of the setup and then and then the big fungus is our particular framing of what is this generative comments that we're trying to feed someone else might call it something else. But if over the short term and then definitely the long term, if other people wanted to have shows either existing shows or newly framed shows that also want to feed the same fungus then we're like then we're rocking and rolling weaving the world would be one of many different entities that is focused on how do we build the shared knowledge base and it's knowledge base is a terrible framing for it and knowledge management is bad. But by the way, I'd like to absorb all the people who've given a damn about knowledge management for the last 40 years and been frustrated and offer them something brand new to walk into. So then, then we need a bunch of things to frame what that is like weaving the world needs to look and smell like a regular podcast so there's a bunch of things there and I'm working on a project plan to make that actually look like, like, like a, like a thing that has a project that needs resources and some people to work on different parts of it. And some parts of that are the things that an early grant could help stand up Mark and then Pete. The weaving the world for me and sorry I'm going to come up with my own perspective on this even though this is Jerry space. It's not it's our it's our collaborative space this is just my particular weird little vision. Go ahead. Yeah, the way I understand at some point we had a long conference about what is OGM and why is OGM. And at some point one sentence that's talk to me was this you know we're connecting the connectors connecting ideas connecting people but connecting the connectors. But the read it's there's a whole Russian dolls off so that right where a lot of us are working on tools so that we can connect connectors so that they can connect ideas and that's leaving the world so that we can connect actions and that's a collective action to quote unquote. Save the world or at least have a more better coordinated response to global crisis. So there's all these levels of so that. And what to do with the money when you speak about leaving the world that's kind of the third layer right the connecting the ideas. And there's what Vincent is doing with Yeah, it's very much connecting projects more but it's also connecting teams and connectors, but I think that having the whole, how do we connect ideas well because a lot of people have been trying that and connecting ideas is not that easy and especially with the kind of organization and polarization so how do we have methodologies and very much OGM is a community of practice, community of practice of connectors, and one idea I tried to push is that one thing to do with the money. Of course there's the events of leaving the world and that's valuable it's another layer but in the connecting the connectors kind of closer layer. There's OGM as a lab as we're a community of practice of connectors and tool builders for connectors, and so that we can exchange what tools really help the those connectors and can the connectors tell us what their needs are for tools to do their work better. So the whole laboratory let's try things together and let's learn from one another on needs and aims interaction. So for me these are all the nested layers of so that and the connection between them and I think this this is what we need to articulate well in terms of what's OGM and what's the project and what would we do with that money. Everything you said absolutely totally agree, and essential to the process. And I think you're right sort of the interface between connectors is a piece of it, and then some connectors or mavens and some connectors connect you to mavens, and some of the mavens are the ones who know where the bits, the tasty bits are and how to wire them together the connectors don't always know that the connectors are often conveners and facilitators, but not necessarily don't don't always have the perspective on the activity sometimes they do.  Thanks Mark for that. It's, there's a kind of a maybe I think of it as a continuum kind of OGM is a philosophy is one way and OGM is a lab is kind of in between, you know philosophy and OGM is an organization that has particular goals. I like the lab framing. I think I actually like the philosophy framing better but I think that's it maybe takes it too far. Um, I, I, I quick note, I made a note to myself I'm going to paste it in chat. So we got excited kind of talking about oh let's diagram all the things instead of let's dashboard all the things you know and and we should do both of those. And I also want to make the point one of the one of the things I feel like we do is like oh my god if we only had a dashboard then this would all make sense. Um, so really diagrams and dashboards are tools and artifacts around which we do the thinking and doing and deciding, but the thinking and the doing and the deciding is actually the precedent activity that's what that's what we have to be doing. So, and we're doing a great job of it here I would judge for what it's worth. I would also judge that we're doing a great job of in the moment thinking and doing and just thinking and deciding at least and we have a habit a really bad habit of having you know this kind of thinking and and deciding scroll off into the into the past. So, I am reminded of a saying by by an old philosopher that I had to hear this week and I did not like hearing it. Real artist ship. So, we're pretty good at dabbling in the arts. I agree I could do a lot better job of shipping things and perhaps so GM could do a lot better job of shipping things to agreed and we don't have a rhythm or process or or those things in place and I in defense of dashboards in particular. I know that I've ever thought dashboards will solve everything but I know that there's been a demand from the very get go to see ourselves like who the heck is in this community and what do they care about. And a dashboard is one way to get there. And it's a really useful way. And so we've gone 18 months without, you know, being able to see ourselves as a community, and then the diagrams are a way of seeing our path. And if I had my druthers, the people layer and the organizational layer of the diagrams would actually be fed automatically by the dashboard would be just a view in the dashboard and would be manipulable and viewable and you know we could sort of say, and Vincent is sort of kind of close to that in the sense that he has different kinds of views of an org one of which is the network view, which is a really simple like rubber band effect view of, you know, orgs in a neighborhood, but but that could easily get one step more sophisticated and be the kind of layer of diagramming that we're thinking about. So frustratingly from our conversation when I presented the five layers, like it seems really hard to figure out what damn tool to actually use to see five layers in three dimensions, where, where when you when you want to look at one layer, it's high functioning as a flat diagram because awesome. And when you want to see how these things interrelate, they can go into three dimensions and you can see the connections between the layers that that simple thing seems to actually be really hard to instantiate. And, and yet. Yes. Speaking as a product developer that kind of thing is really easy to prototype around right. So we haven't, we haven't just sat down on our butts and said okay.  It's like, did just, you know, just start doing it in in in piece parts, and then you've at least made the progress towards the goal of doing it. I totally agree. And my goal is, if we collectively think that that's an interesting and important feature to have, then let's describe it as a tile as a project tile in the mosaic. And let's get it funded as a tile and let's figure out who would like to who who feels like building it in a way that fits the rest of whatever it is we're using, you know, whatever graphics tool we think we're using and whatnot. What are the interchanges and how does that work and then that becomes a little piece in the actual technical socio technical infrastructure that we're helping build, and that that makes a lot of sense to me is like, Okay, there's a bunch of stuff that we each of us wish we had a lot of which is describable as software, how does that translate into project plans which are then fundable. And I'm interested in turning this from an all volunteer activity into actually a way that many of us can can make a living while feeding the fungus. So that when people ask us at a party so what do you do you can say, I feed the fungus. Let's get to say that. Real neat t shirts and, and I feed the fungus. Oh, absolutely. I love that. It's, it's better than, than I follow the pheromone trail. Yeah, left, left behind by my, my predecessor. And you definitely don't want I follow cam trails. That's bad. Rebecca and fun makes a good point in chat that one of the things that we do is that that as we play with our tools, they don't talk to each other very well so that so that we can accumulate and build on decisions. I think, I think that's kind of true. I also would point out flotilla flotilla is actually doing it, you know, it's a semi decent job of kind, kind of, at least working on the idea of knitting together tools. I, I think the top level thing for me is that I feel like we're being lazy. And it's kind of a societal thing that we've got, I feel like in the, in the 2020s at this point. Everybody likes to be doing, everybody likes to be being active and generating ideas and the culture has gotten to be where it's like, it's cool to like, expound, right. The back to the real artist ship, there's, there's a, there's a thing that is really uncomfortable and hard to do, where you say, okay, I'm going to stop having so much fun generating cool ideas.   I don't want to do something fun instead. I'll go to an OGM call and we'll chit chat about, you know, the state of the world and we'll hand ring and we'll come up with brilliant ideas and all feel good together and stuff like that. And there's that. There's, you know, that's, it's a, I feel like it's a laziness thing. And I'm not really, I'm not trying to be personal with this I'm not trying to be, you know, but there's just a point at which, you know, why haven't, why haven't we done things right why haven't we built the stuff that we talk about why haven't we, you know, started to build little pieces of the things that we've started that we've been talking about. So two things and totally not taking this defensively. I love what you're saying. One thing is, as far as I'm concerned, you've built a whole bunch of pieces that we're relying on that that exists in that you're putting on the fungus because they're available on GitHub, which is, GitHub is right now like our fungus, our fungus infrastructure, right. And you've been doing that now for months and months and months and we've been trying to figure out how to make that, you know, practical for muggles but but if you're willing to learn how to post to GitHub and use some some tools, like, we've got some some piece parts that are ethically and designedly toward the kind of thing we want their their their open shareable linkable, etc, etc, and we're experimenting. And then the second thing is, I am not a coder I don't know how to do most of the things that you do Pete, and my answer to your question so far is, I need to figure out how to source the funds into this project so that we're not just asking everybody to be all volunteer and sort of go do this. I also haven't done a good job of maybe leading us toward some junctures where some of this could be sorted out into okay so what software do we need and and who might and who might be interested in building it, but I thought the flotilla calls were trying to do some of that, and maybe I'm not active enough on that front. And then also as this thing evolves and we discuss all sorts of different moving parts like NFTs and and distribute and distributed databases and IPFS and whatnot. This vision kind of morphs as it goes which becomes frustrating over time because it's like, damn what's the new vision this week and why didn't we act on that on that vision last time. But I kind of, I kind of want to say that we're sort of marked. I'm going to use a maybe a bad metaphor yet another interesting metaphor for nature. I don't know if everybody knows how bamboo grows, but bamboo basically the bamboo shoot grow like like looks like it's doing nothing for a long time and just kind of sits there. It brings up and over the course of a couple days can grow like 10 meters, some form some kinds of bamboo, bamboo sort of sort of marshals its energies and then it's going and suddenly you've got like, and and and once it's grown to its full height, it doesn't keep.  I feel like we're sort of like an aspen bro, but a bam, a series of them of bamboo forest, both of which are interesting because they're because of their root systems and their connectivity there could do like nature. Above this mycelial web of stuff, right, a fertile soil. And to me, all the nature metaphors are actually extremely informative for what it is and how we might go about building what we're building. And so it feels like some of what we've been doing is marshaling up on energy to go then okay good so now we've defined a tile and we kind of know what we mean by tile because we've talked through it a bunch of times. And now we can go do it. Pete, I am very aware of how much time you've poured in and how much you've put into OGM over the last 18 months and it's brilliant and beautiful and it's given me vast amounts of pleasure and satisfaction, just to be co working with you on this at the fungus phase. And I want this to be a way you can make a livelihood. And I ain't so good at that. So, so I'm trying I'm trying to figure out how to do that better. Mark. Yeah. I think this was, I took it as a dress to me at least probably others, but, and I'll take the earliest charges I said, I've been thinking, Mark took as well at the same way. Yeah, I've been thinking about hyper knowledge for now, a few years, quite a few years even 25 for probably just for okay I thought this is like part of your longer term. No no it's yeah but the hyper knowledge part is less than that. Okay. Before that was ideal. So yeah I would say for years I've been on hyper knowledge. And I've been unable to do exactly what you say and just sit down and write the reason being that for me I've seen a lot of projects go on a wrong architecture and wrong start. And get into a dead end and sometimes you can refactor but sometimes it's so bad at your rewrite. And in a way hyper knowledge is my reaction to the rewrite of idea loom which made quite a few assumptions that I'm now questioning. And I keep doing which is probably equally annoying to you. Which is saying yeah but this doesn't handle this this doesn't handle that this doesn't and criticizing a lot of the work you're doing, which I know has value and I want to be clear about that. But saying this doesn't fulfill my goal, because these are the things I want to solve before I put a concrete. But it's also true that it stopped me from producing much. I am at the point where I need to turn this around. It's a dynamic and that's, you know, my problems and my dynamics and I don't want to take over the call with my personal issues but on the other hand, this is about can we work together. And that means spending more time aligning on goals and means. And I don't, on the one hand, I haven't been able to do my own work because I wasn't clear enough on the means. And I'd be both comfortable and uncomfortable criticizing or yeah but this doesn't solve that. Knowing that I don't have a solution either and I don't want to block other people from doing useful stuff for whatever they're trying to solve which may be different. Right. It's not solid, but on the other hand, I feel it's not solving the problem I think needs to be solved for our common goals and I hear you talk and often I realize we have the same goals and you do want to solve the same problem.  Hey, just one last thing. Unfortunately, the flotilla timing is terrible for me. I have not joined the calls I've tried once. I did feel a bit and I'll say it a bit. Hey, this is so much an overlap with hyper knowledge. But on the other hand, it's not. I don't own this. I think we reached to our efforts, but I was a bit like, why are we not working more together on this part of it is bad timing for me, which I'm just raising now but I think I don't know if I raise it before and that's on. But it's also, I did not feel quote unquote invited but I know the door was open. I'm trying to solve the problem the same way but we have a lot to learn from one another. If we got the flotilla idea more and hyper knowledge idea more together. That's, we should do that and we should figure out a time that that works for everybody. And briefly before I switched to pass the mic to mark. So in the back of my mind, like, since we started is like, hey, how does hyper knowledge fit into the mosaic and how do we fund you to go like take it to fruition. And, and I really appreciate and I hope that are especially our month out like the free juries brain calls have been helpful to you and evaluating tools and figuring out like which way to go and what kind of thing to do it. And I know that it's been like a PhD course for me. So I have learned a ton from our conversations that are just our explorations into this territory, and it's as it's as if, sorry to go to nature again. It's as if our conversations are like high fade tentatively just testing new, slightly salty territory to figure out if we should grow in that direction. Or we're the explorer ants who are out looking for food sources. And when we find a food source we're going to like run back to the nest dropping our tail on the ground now and then so we can find our way back but, but that's kind of what our conversations feel like, except the territory is really kind of lumpy and thorny and experimental and there's a bunch of different interesting groups doing great work, some of whom are probably doing fantastic work and we haven't even had the time or connections to pop the lid and go what's inside because I bet there's some really, I bet they've solved some of our problems, and we haven't, we haven't figured out a process even to do that. So, so yes, and yes, and yes, Mark. Unmute. Lower hand. Excellent. I know. There should be little toggle switches on the interface like actual toggles. Yeah, boy, I hear you Pete I hear you Jerry I hear you Mark, I'd love to hear from Stacy and egg. And boy. On the other side of great artists ship is that wonderful term from the writer. Make great art. Make good art. And if I make good art and I don't show it to anybody is it is it still art. That's a real tough one for me. I've never been one to be a promoter or, you know, go for shows or, but boy, am I satisfied with a lot of the photography and the poetry and, and the art that I've done. You know, since, you know, the teenage years, Neil Gaiman yes make great make good art. Thanks. My mantra is I don't want to do it alone.   But we're that far apart at the same time. I can't use your tool you can't use my tool. And, and that was fascinating and it's still, you know, my own particular experience. You know I hung out with Jacob Cole I've hung out with the Rome people as they were developing it five years ago, and they're not for me. It's the instrumental part of, say the Zetzel cast and it was designed for a specific purpose. It certainly was very helpful for Nicholas Lumen. You know, thought system, and there are bits and pieces that we can learn from share create but you know for me it's hyper lists. Meme streams was a meme streams.com I sold for 10 grand to have some people and they were supposed to give it back to me if they ever stopped their startup which did fail but somehow I didn't get it back. Anyway, the conversation that you were referencing. I listened to most of the recording, not all of it, but it was just fascinating how basically yes we want this global memory. It's new that no documentary Google on the word world brain the fight against book scanning plans. I'll post that just was released yesterday apparently on YouTube. Yeah, this stuff is just around for ever. The reference hgls talking about the world and in the 30s and 40s. It's here he says, but what I think I need is about 1000 hours of conversation, and about 2000 hours of coding. I'd love to, you know, I'm here for that conversation to basically clarify. And what did Jerry say it was basically, you know, creating a market in that call. A few weeks ago, there are people that go out and are able to say, Ah, here's a market. I'm going to document it I'm going to create it I'm going to basically, you know, make this meme into some kind of social structure that surpasses a meme and becomes, you know, the type of things that people actually do. So we're talking about, as I understand it, changing personal behavior from ingesting fondle slab media to actually doing writing oneself on a consistent and constant way in that the side effect could be of benefit for other people. Before going to Pete, I just want to say that one of my visions, a couple of visions of what OGM might be could be one of them is sort of like cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp, you know, rasses or shrimp, where some some some other entity pulls up and we're like boom boom boom. I remember the scene from cars where Guido does the pit stop and I'm like, I want OGM to be able to do that. And I'd like to make it so that all of us can be really excited to do that for an entity. You know, the connector and the things that they're sort of all about and add the like turbo charge the vehicle not just sort of send it off with new tires and a full tank, but actually send them off with a better version of what they're doing, how they connect to the rest of it, sharing their data all that kind of thing. So, over to you in the booth Pete and love fondle slab media that just is awesome. Great conversation. I think that was really good.  And it made me think that there's an interesting difference between great and real, you know, in that saying, and, you know, it's it's over compressed saying it's a quip, but I, I would also say like, you know, when I think real artists ship and that we should be doing more of it. I actually think about myself. And the reason I'm thinking about that quote in the past couple days, it turns out it was actually about hollow chain. We got to talking. I think it was Zeke, I think Zeke and Wendy McClain are excited about building stuff and they're talking about hollow chain. And, and I have a bit of frustration with the hollow folks because I ordered a hollow nano hollow port nano.  So then they said, but you can upgrade for another, you know, a few hundred dollars, you can buy the next, the next best thing that or the better thing right and I'm like, okay. So that was, I don't know, three, four or five months ago and so I suckered in for that and, and then I'm like, I haven't heard from these people since, you know. So hollow chain is this cool thing, and there may be a real pony in there. But I, I, and I'm a little bit bitter but heard from my experience with the hardware thing. But it made me think, you know, there's, there's another guy who was a visionary, and was in the hardware business named Steve Jobs and you know he said real artists ship. And the meaning of that phrase to me is that like, you know, you can pontificate about cool stuff as much as you want. But you know, if you're not shipping hardware, you're not a real artist, which is different from a great artist I think there, I don't want to preclude to say that everybody should be shipping. I think there are certainly people who should be doing great art. And sometimes, sometimes maybe everybody everybody sees it maybe sometimes one or two people see it maybe sometimes no people see it I think that's great. And also to mention a cool I follow Google has learned that I'm a sucker for archaeological news. So they feed me archaeological news on my phone. Super cool article recently about a paper somebody somebody found hand prints and footprints made in mud, like 200,000 years ago. And they called it art. And then they had to go through a whole explanation in the paper, you know, why would you call this hand prints and footprints art. It turns out that they're, they're purposely set, you can tell that the people engaged in and there were probably two people then they were probably kids. They were purposely placing things on the surface. It wasn't just walking and it wasn't just playing around and doing something. They were actually purposely placed. So the authors of the articles said, you know, this, we're going to call this an example of art because it was purpose play purposeful placement. And what that does the previously earliest known art by Homo was 40,000 years ago so they just pushed that back 160,000 years or so. Anyway, sorry, our archaeology geek. So I think great art is cool and I don't want to preclude us from doing great art. Even if it's just hand prints and footprints placed together that somebody's going to find in 200,000 years that's cool. But there's another thing to where when we want to make a thumbprint on the world when we actually want to make change in the world we actually have to ship stuff.  I'm over here on tasos, having a blast with the NFT marketplace right. Why isn't there an NFT marketplace on Holochain.   And, you know, a lot of the reason for that is I have to kind of chalk it up to laziness, you know, and I don't know it was a way of kind of kicking myself in the rear. And so I think OGM has that same thing, you know, we, we don't harvest our own materials very well we we have lots of dreams we don't just put things together. Mark Antoine and I have not figured out how to have it such that he can be coming to hotel calls at some point in the week. So we should just start doing it. And, and lastly, the in the real artist ship thing. There are things and maybe Mark Antoine is and maybe Mark around is or isn't on the path of you have to just sit with this thing for 20 or 30 years until it turns into a thing and it doesn't make sense to ship before that that might be true. The, you know, the, the, the opposite thing is that some things you can just chip away at right. So the link I just posted was to Henry Kniberg's classic agile product development thing.  You, even if you want to make a complicated thing. You know that you can't ship the complicated thing right away. So you build a small thing that that that satisfies a tiny part of the use case poorly, right, and then you iterate you make it a little bit bigger part of the use case and less poorly, and you continue that iterate iterative product development cycle until you're shipping cool stuff right. So, I, I'm all for great artists don't ship, and they, they make great art, I think that's cool. And there's certainly a place in OGM for real artists ship and they ship stuff that's not not necessarily great at the beginning. And then you come out, you know, one year, five years, 10 years later with something like the, all the Apple computer line, right, or the all the iPhone line, which changes the world, right.  Actually, iPhone's interesting because it's, for me, it's also a good example of Apple sat on it until it could be perfect. And that's what they do all the time. They don't ship early. They don't, they ship, they do iterative improvement after that. The Newton Newton was shipping early. Yeah, and and and it was a it was an absolute failure, but the jobs Apple I should have said and now it's not jobs Apple anymore but it's kept that ethos post post second coming of jobs Apple totally never shipped early. The diagram about MVP and I do, by the way, I have a complex relationship for shipping or we should be not because God I do understand the value of iterating, and I do see the value of not pontificating you're absolutely right Pete. We do need to get things out to understand to experiment. When I say it's a lab well lab is about doing experiments and on imperfect things. 100% and on the other hand, sometimes something is not ready, and you'll spend time improving something that is on a bad plan and you can improve your roller skater all you want it won't lead you to the car. Like this diagram gives the illusion that you can which I mentally improve the skateboard into the car, and I don't believe it for a second each is its own line of evolution.  Yeah, which is totally fine. This is Nyberg skateboard to car. Oh, okay. illustration. So that's the lesson there is actually that you develop the different products.  You're so you're not developing the skateboard is not a car the skateboard gets you from one place to another place faster than your feet do, which is kind of the use case of the car. Well, agile was mostly developed in banks with ridiculous resources in huge teams, so they could develop five product lines at the same time no seriously. Yeah, that's also part of the equation. Yeah, and and telecoms which are even worse than banks. But, but there are also just times when the, you know, expanding the complexity and the resources to get five different products that incrementally move towards a better thing is productive right in a way that involves other people and can get you to where you're going even though it's, you know, and by the way, I agree we need to have multiple products. I just hope we can have a common road and common signalization for all these vehicles. For me that's what hyper knowledge is about. Anyway, say sorry. So, Jerry then Stacy. And I've got a bunch of things I want to turn the conversation. First to quote is make good art, not great art. And there's a whole interesting thread about quantity not quality there's the pottery professor who basically told half of his class. I want you to spend the entire term making your best work like this one piece. And he told the other half of the class, I want you to make as many pieces as you possibly can generate this this semester this quarter. And guess whose pots were more interesting better whatever whatever it's the people who had turned out want to team not quality. And so a piece of this is just like ship early release early release often which is actually this the open source principle, which I like a ton. And can we look at our calls. Sorry, I've been posting these calls on YouTube we've been having really fascinating conversations. I don't know about y'all but I've been learning a whole bunch in my view of the world has shifted through these conversations. I believe this is work product in a modern sense I believe that what we're doing is working in public. And it's a form of it's a it's a it's a wippy form of work product but it's a but it's a thing like it's an artifact and and and an ordinary muggle faced with like like those vast world of whatever would be like you all put on a show in fact you put on five shows a week. You know, publish them all and all that kind of stuff, but I don't and I don't want to overplay that. But I'm also curating all the calls that I'm on I'm curating into this quirky map which is imprisoned in this proprietary software, which I'm trying to release into the world as a sourdough starter for the big map, but it ain't yet, because I don't have a vine to swing to, because there's no new tool yet that we've built. And then finally, hey Pete. I'm really interested in taking snapshots of our journey and turning them into NFTs and seeing if anybody will buy them. So an easy way to do that to prototype that, because I would love to do that I'm like, I think I think that to my mind, the most positive light to shine on NFTs is that they allow people to spend some money supporting a community that is doing work, maybe art. The worst part of NFTs is that somebody wants proprietary ownership over an artifact and wants to disappear from the world. It's the opposite approach. But the idea that somebody might want to be initial funders investors in the big fungus, and that subsequent sales of that artifact can funnel money back to the community building the big fungus excites me no end. And if we could do the smallest lightest thing that would make that possible. I am all in on that experiment as well among the other 50 things I'd like to do and haven't done yet. But, but anyway that that's my last thought on that. So Stacy then Pete. So not to put Pete on the spot it's sort of a rhetorical question, but I would ask, is it laziness or is it a part of you that's actually honoring who you are as a person and beating yourself. Because seriously, that's why I come to these calls because I see your frustration, and I see it everywhere. And I think that there is a way that if we were restructured you were able you would be able to do both. And just as a simple example, I had a call with Jerry, where I propose something, not so much, because I wanted to create what I was proposing, but because I thought, if that's the direction, it would lead to a number of smaller actions that would be necessary to go and I wound up getting I don't know if you saw the message from Bentley, but he had watched where at the end we I sort of said you know a beginner's call which is a social kind of call where you know that's why you're going to discuss what are the values we want to start creating. And he said, Hey, I'm working on something really similar. I'd like to be involved in that call. And I think that those kind of beginners calls. First of all, they separate what you're going to do. But I think everybody on this call agrees that the more you talk and listen to people the more your own thinking takes off in different ways. So I just wanted to, you know, say that may not be laziness. Maybe we need to do a little bit more honoring of our souls because look at the world the way it is now I mean Jerry you said on a different call how we've separated work and play. I think that's a big problem. Agreed. Let me reply to Stacy real quick and then to you Pete. First, thanks for reminding me about that and I had forgotten that snippet of conversational with Bentley, and please bring it bring it back in so that as we do stuff that actually turns into a thing. And then second, one of the things I really enjoyed about our call together that I think that call is that I was sort of trying to get to the point of okay Stacy so would you like to run a show would you like to have be a host of a show and and we talked through it to the point where I think where we ended up was a really nice starting point might be that Stacy you're a correspondent for weaving the world. But some of the shows are some of the work and some of the conversations that you spark and bring into it. And in doing so you don't have to build the infrastructure of a show and do all of the different moving parts of it. But you can bring in the experiments that you're thinking about the game ideas and so forth and we can play them out in some interesting way. And I was really happy with that because at the end of that call I felt like I felt like I understood now how to bring you into the the puzzle that we're busy building and in a role that would be satisfying to you and would play out the kinds of things that you envision doing does that is that work right for what your memory. Yes, that's I mean look I'll be really honest.  So I like to know that I have, you know, support. That's the truth. Well, Pete, and then we're over a little over an hour so we should start to wrap up Pete. Thanks, thanks for asking a question Stacy and, and there certainly over the past, you know year and a half or something like that. I have appreciated the process of, of all of us honoring our, you know, seeking out uncertainty and not not knowing. It's been a wonderfully generative time for a lot of those things. Mark said something interesting in the chat hesitation is actually different from procrastination. A diagnosis, another diagnosis I have is that we procrastinate we are literally lazy and a good example is Jerry the work product that we've got of all the calls that we have. It would be just just sitting down and doing the work to mine some of that. And for me it would be creating a wiki right creating diagrams. What you know what issues have we talked about over the past year and a half. And why do we think they're important. How are they interconnected. That's literally, you know, like a few hours of work that none of us is doing. And, and it's hard for me to, and, and I think, I think it's not just that we're blind to it that we don't know that the work is there, I think that we do know the work is there. We could do it.  It's like, you know, I could just leave those dishes in the kitchen, and I could just narrow down to the one glass and the one plate and the one fork and spoon that I've got and I kind of just rinse those and let the rest of the stuff pile up. And it turns out that the devil's not going to come eat me.  My dad also, it's just runs a bachelor life now without my mom so he's he's got his one plate and his one. Anyway, so, and, and this kind of telescopes for me right it's it's like, even, even during a meeting, we, we do a good job of kind of like we don't, you know, we could but we don't we've talked about but we don't setting aside a quarter of the call at the end of the call to just, you know, just hit the high points of the call, we could do that and we don't. And to me it feels like that same thing you know I don't want to do the dishes it's not fun. I, you know I don't want to vacuum today because it's not fun and you know it's not going to be the end of the world if we don't. But, but what you find, kind of, if we were more productive in many ways right harvesting our stuff or building little pieces, the little prototypes that we talk about building if we did that stuff you get that sense of accomplishment, you walk into the kitchen you go oh my God look at the kitchen I actually have a nice kitchen. It's sparkling it's clean it's wonderful. And so that we're we cheat ourselves out of that accomplishment. When we are procrastinate we're just lazy. I'm going to, I'm going to skip now to a different topic that NFT thing. I cracked it, I know what to do. I'm going to sell NFT artifacts of, you know, like we could NFT up, you know, a YouTube call or this actually probably what you would do is NFT up, you know 30 seconds of somebody saying something brilliant or something like that. The, the realization or that I had a, I had a good explanation for Howard, Jerry and I have a friend Howard on a different list, where I talked about, you know, being in the NFT marketplace and Howard says so Pete. Cool stuff on your NFT page. I could even imagine myself buying some of it. What do what am I actually buying when I buy one of your NFT things. So, so I wrote a piece that I need to distribute better. I've been lazy and haven't distributed it better or or busy. I've been too busy to distribute it better. So what I said, inspired by the language used in the, in the UI of the NFT marketplace I'm playing with, he could look. They don't use buy and sell they use collect and swap. And I realized that you can look at the NFT, the whole NFT phenomenon is widespread and there's lots of stuff going on there certainly people buying and selling and there's certainly people just looking for a quick flip and things like that. But he could not is is cooler because it's smaller. It's not so hyper fast charged. And it feels to me more like in the olden days on Flickr when we used to have fun with Flickr and photos digital photos and then the dawn of the age of digital photos. We made hashtags we we collected things into groups and albums. We played with each other's, you know, photos. And, and I can at least he could not is small enough that I can feel like I'm playing and what I'm doing is curating a collection. So when I'm, you know, in the olden days I would say I'm buying somebody's piece of art and, and with digital art you're actually not buying the piece itself because you can just copy the file and then you, you have it as much as anybody else has it.  And when I think of it as collecting and swapping. It feels a little bit like baseball cards or a little bit like enamel pins. And there's a thing that humans do at least some humans just like to collect things they like to collect series of things they like to, you know, fill out a collection they like to swap with another, you know, I've got this this one and you've got that one could we swap.  We had this amazing marble gallery out on the playground and in lunchtime, and it was a blast. You know, big one small ones, the purlies and you know the fancy all the fancy ones and stuff like that. Okay, I think that's when humans are really being human that's a good human activity marketplaces and, you know, swaps and things like that. Rather than the stock market and the weird derivative games that we, you know, we play with computers and stuff like that that's not human. Anyway, in this collecting and swapping thing. I would, if I had, if I had a grant. If I had a grant. I'm not thinking of this because I want the money to pay for the grant, but I was like, okay, here's what you would build. You could rebuild the NFT marketplace to be a little bit different right now the marketplace that I'm playing in is optimized for for collecting and swapping art. And maybe again, you know, the thing when I do when I'm collecting art is not that I'm buying it to enclose it or buying it so that I can flip it. What I'm doing is, I'm saying, look at me, I've got this collection of stuff on this marketplace. This is me curating, you know, the the mail storm of stuff. And on my creations page. This is me creating stuff that I want to share into this, this, this bizarre right. What if we did that with projects to what if we had an NFT in a marketplace of projects instead of art. And just like you're an angel investor, if you're the person who bets on massive wiki early on, you know, you, you get the big chunk of the massive wiki project collection right and you're not doing this transactional thing where, you know, if if I pay $10,000 into this startup, if I pay $100,000 into this startup, they burn it on on labor and and marketing costs and stuff like that. And then I get to sell my investment for a million dollars. And that's not what I'm talking about. It's like, what if I was the person who had invested in this cool project what if I, what if I had been the person who invested in weaving the world early on right. It would be super gratifying to come back a year later, or two years later, four years later, and say hey look, I invested in weaving the world in 2021. I invested weaving the world, and you know the next three or four from this guy Jerry McCalsky. Look, Jerry, you know subdivided weaving the world into this sub projects thing. And, you know, I was the first investor, I was the second investor in weaving the world. And this is, I think there's something to do there. It, it would be building. I, ideally, you would build a new marketplace the marketplace would have a little bit different rules and the way the way it works. You could bootstrap off of the, the DAP contracts for for he could actually, I think you could.  I have a lot to add back into the conversation with apologies that we're running well over our, and I also would love to hear from Stacy Hank Mark and Mark. So a couple things back to what you were saying about automating the artifacts from our calls. I would love that but my higher priority for you Pete is a muggle friendly front end a massive, and I'd rather I'd rather ask you and fund you to build that, then have you do anything other stuff.  How do we do more of that. Then at some point Charles asked me, hey, aren't we getting transcripts and I'm like yep. So I went back and I looked through all the I went back to all bunch of folders and I put all the transcripts in a Google Drive. I would stop doing that because nobody's using it and it's extra labor for me, and I would love, I would love to be able to point to a zoom call and say, hey, have here's a pipeline script that basically downloads the zoom call does some simple editing adds an intro and takes the transcript puts it over here into another its own pipeline so that six people do different things with a transcript, and that just turns into rocket fuel, and then gets put into the URL shredder or chainsaw. So that the links that happen to the call are over here and easily linked and all of this is synced back to the video, and I would just be over the moon for that and I think that's a project tile to describe. Okay, because because then we're actually using our artifacts. The reason I'm not that worried right now is that the artifacts are at least we've got the file they're in cyberspace that the bare bones things are sort of available so I'm not too worried about that, but I would love all of that. I wrote down like, maybe what we need to do is build our own hiccup knock it's not just float on an artifact and one of my problems with hiccup knock in particular, is that algorithmically generated art leaves me completely cold.    And I'm like these people are just trying to flip properties and they're saying, Hey, here's a funny thing. And to me it's going to poison the whole well. And, and to me the whole thing you just said I don't think people are buying the signature. I think they're saying I would like to be identified as the initial backer of this movement artists creative soul, as you just said, and I think that people would love to be the first backers of the big fungus. And I know that sounds weird but if we created a market called the big fungus, and then had artifacts in that market that were real that were tied to, and here's an artifact that came out of our conversation with Jim Rott, and those people or bio or Kamala, we went and visited bio that here's a here's a collage from the end of that call with two snippets that were great from that call. And that is an artifact that is actually meaningful mile post in the progress of civilization someday 1000 years ago when archeologists try to find all the files that we lost because of the EMP that wiped everything out. That will be a thing that will be important. And so I would love to do that. And one of my favorite shapes me a lot of this was one of my favorite movies in the world and one of my favorite lines from there is like the backer who says I'm the money and he's the one who's nervous and wants it wants a role in the play, and floods his lines and so forth but it's just a brilliant story but but we need to give a role for people who want to back civilization, right and I think that's the potential here it's like, you're not backing and flipping these stupid little like pixel art, or other sorts of things, you're actually backing movement of forward this is of humans making sense of the world. And I think that's really compelling. And hand HEN is the shorthand for Hick ethnic for everybody looking at the chat. I think we should have wrapping thoughts and, and, and our call this has been juicy and generative in the way that our best calls are and I really appreciate that so anybody with some want to put a bow on our conversation. Yeah, I just want to say the first person you mentioned that showed you what he had created. I would love to see a short clip of what that looks like it would be helpful, so that wherever recognizing what you want. We, you know, because otherwise I have no idea what that looks like. I think do you mean Max Harper's use of the transcript. I believe that mirror board is still alive so I'll find the I'll find the mirror board and share it back with you. I'll put it in the matter most chat for build a GM. Perfect. And the other thing is when we talked about pop up calls. I think what Pete just talked about would be a great pop up fall to have. Totally agree. Totally agree. Hank, Hank in the cave. Yeah, okay. I put a lot of my thoughts in the in the chat because I enjoy listening to to how you guys talk about. I think I could say I'm really in line with with Pete during this call on the on the prototyping aspect it doesn't have to be perfect to to get it out into some iterative tests first with the ogmers and then maybe carefully outside them. That's how you sharpen your idea that's how ideas really get sharpened. Great art is only recognized as great art afterwards, usually so you produce what you produce and I really like Jerry I really like your example of the, the experiment with make as many ideas as as you can. That meets that goes along with my experience as well. And finally the last thing that I put into the, the, the chat of Pete's idea of people looking back and saying oh I was the first investor I was the fourth investor that that really does work and I think people want to invest. And in, in, in part of this positive cartography project I'm doing some one of my chief collaborators is doing something totally her own with dream weaving whatever that means I'll find. Maybe tomorrow, but she's got, she's she got an idea she she put out a call. She's got a lot of small scale investors already. There's people who want to take it on the second or third iteration into Africa, and that's because she put out the idea. So if you don't put up your ideas you never know who's going to buy them so I totally in favor of putting out ideas and seeing what emerges. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else with closing words. This has been super juicy productive. Thank you. Let me just ask one question because in yesterday's call Pete you reference the matter most mapping channel. Where do I find that. Ah, maps and mapping is a channel and metamask and Peter I will put a link to it in the chat here. Oh terrific thanks a lot. I have one last thing, just directly to mark and one mark and one I got you confused with Mark the bow I've got I'm confusing my marks. I mean you're off the mark. I am off the mark, and I'm missing the mark as well. Definition of sin but basically I'm looking for the huge Jason file of Jerry's brain in my and I'll connect with you on matter most but basically want to play with the data. My own data is, what is it 2.5 million records and so I can easily slip in. I actually keep them separate, but be like an appetizer for your brain. But it's serious work that that you and I do and it's, it's weird work. It's noticing and curating and feeding the fungus. Did you read the Come on brain. The channel is P. just posted the link to the channel in the chat. Mark is talking. I'm entangled. Sheldrake entangled entangled life. How fun you make our worlds. I have not. Can you post the link to it. I will post the link to it. Perfect. Thank you. I'm also highly struck and really enjoying Hank's raised hand in the zoom next to the handprint on the back behind him. I was just making me realize that all those hand prints in all the caves were probably early zoom. I need attention kind of mark. We have just, we have just decoded why the damned hands are in all those caves. This was all zoom. Checking that you're reading the chat mark because I please please. Reading what the chat. Oh, so because I I'm easier. I sometimes miss messages in the matter most. So I put my email on it's easier for me to get it's easier to get my email. Any parent at ACM.org or Gmail.com or conversants.com there's quite a few but anyway, exactly. And Mark, who's the is it Sheldrake. Yeah. Merlin Sheldrake Merlin, his son. Okay. I thought that's where you go. We're getting that stuff. About the big fungus. So it comes from lots of different places. So I've got secrets of the Woodward Web. Yeah, he's, I've got him here. I've got him in my brain. I don't know that his, I don't know that his work is the general source.  There's a radical mycologist who lives in Portland, whose speech I missed at us at a mushroom at a mushroom exhibition a couple years ago here in Portland that was really, really cool. So imagine going into an octagonal room where there's tables set up in the middle sort of table set in the middle facing out each table larger than a pool table. Each table loaded with different fungi fresh out of the field, all of them fresh live samples, you know, so six different tables all facing and labeled. So the collectors had shown up, piled in all their samples sorted them kind of so that they were kind of similar. insanely beautiful. It was just a remarkable thing and then there were there were people giving talks and all that. And we got there late enough that I missed the radical mycologist talk. So. Thank you all.