So welcome to the ARDC Projects Exchange 2021, which has the theme collaboration for impact. So I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land that we're meeting on today and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging. So I'm at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, so I'm acknowledging and paying respect to the Turbull and Yagaro people. Today's session is the first of a series of sessions over the next week, where we'll be hearing from the project leads of ARDC co-investment partners for our national data assets and platforms programs. So it's a chance to hear about each other's projects and plans and an opportunity to better coordinate and connect on common challenges that might arise during the delivering of these projects over the next couple of years. So this session is the kickoff to kick off our exchange and our speakers are Rosie Hicks, who's our CEO, Andrew Trelaw, who's the director of platforms and software and Adrian Burton, who's the director of data policy and services at ARDC. And they are going to provide you with an overview of the ARDC's intent in developing these programs and orientation to the co-investment partnership and the way in which ARDC can add value to your projects. We're going to begin with Rosie and then we'll hear from Andrew and Adrian and a bit of time at Q&A at the end and I'm fully aware and we're all fully aware that it's a Friday afternoon, so we may not last the full hour. We'll see how we go. So over to you Rosie. Lovely, thanks very much Natasha and if any problems with the audio then sing out. So good afternoon everyone and lovely to see you here this afternoon and the next few moments I'm going to spend going over something that I am sure you're already familiar with, but I do think it helps set the scene for this afternoon, which is really taking us in much deeper to collaborative partnerships for impact. So first of all, as you know, ARDC was incorporated just in 2019 and building on the amazing foundations of ARDC, but it was a lot to bring together. And so we spent some time thinking about the purpose. Really simply, our purpose is to provide Australian researchers with competitive advantage through data. And how do we go about doing that? What's our mission? Well, we're accelerating research and innovation by driving excellence and I am now handing over to Andrew to continue. We're very focused on providing a competitive advantage through data and part of that is in fact a significant part of that is the need to make available high quality data assets and importantly make it possible for people to do things with those high quality data assets. So those of you that remember the 2016 roadmap, you may know that we're in the throes of starting out on the next roadmap, but for those of us that think of the roadmap and remember 2016, the 2016 roadmap had a significant emphasis on the importance of data. I'm hoping that they won't in 2021 say, yeah, we've got that all sorted, we can move on to other challenges because that is not true. There are significant data related challenges for us to tackle. And in terms of what we're doing and how we relate to that, we've got two programs of activity. So one is around creating a collection of high quality national data assets that can be used across disciplines to solve particular challenges. Adrian will talk more about those in a minute, but we are also interested in making it possible for people to do things with those data. And of course, as the data volumes increase, the need to use sophisticated tools and indeed sophisticated collaborative environments to work with that data becomes more and more important. One of the things that we've been emphasising increasingly over the life of the ARDC is the importance of fairness. And you'll hear and see the fair acronym cropping up in all sorts of places in ARDC's messaging, but we're particularly interested in the reuse of data and the reusability of data. And of course, the findability, the accessibility, the interoperability are all in service of the ultimate reusability and indeed reuse. And as you'll hear in a little while, we're interested in looking to expand out the idea of fair beyond just data. And I'll talk more about that in a minute. You'll have heard Rosie talk not about us at ARDC funding projects, but about us co-investing in projects. And that's something that I really want to emphasise today and hopefully something that you'll hear as a consistent messaging thread through the interactions you have with the ARDC. So we really don't want to be seen as a funder. We don't see ourselves as a funder. We very much see ourselves as co-investors in things that you care about and that we care about, and indeed that we believe Australia should care about. So we are consistently trying to talk about co-investment and the co-investment process and the co-investment message. Now, in the case of some of the programs that we invested in last year, we had, sorry, well, we invested in them last year. We ran the programs in 2019. We had quite strict requirements. Those of you that submitted proposals against the 2019 platform's open call will remember that we had a mandatory one-to-one or greater co-investment requirement. We did that for two reasons to be clear. One was this desire that we were seeing not just as funders, that we were seen as co-investors, but secondly, we believed then and still believe that if there are co-investors in the project, the projects are more likely to be sustained beyond the end of the initial injection of ARDC funding. So that's why we really pushed hard that one-to-one co-investment message in the 2019 open calls. In 2020, of course, 2020 you may remember was slightly different to 2019 for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons, of course, thanks COVID, was that the institutions that were often co-investors in our programs had significant financial headwinds. And as a result, we relaxed that one-to-one co-investment requirement. So those of you that applied for the national data assets program, for instance, will not have had a one-to-one co-investment requirement. But we still believe that co-investment is important. So the first message is co-investment is important. The second message is that we don't just see that what ARDC is bringing to the table is money. We also believe that we are there to contribute expertise and effort. So Rosie, I've rolled on past your stuff into my stuff if that's okay. So we very much believe that we have expertise and effort that we're able to contribute and that we want to contribute so that we want the projects to be seen as a co-creation process, something where we all have an investment in its success. I mentioned that we've been talking about ARDC's requirements around FAIR and we've been quite strong for a while on the importance of the data that is being brought together in the national data assets projects or indeed the data that is being produced out of the platforms that we're also investing in, that that data be FAIR. But we're also interested in exploring what FAIR might mean in other contexts. So we're in the process of working through with the platform's community what it might mean to have FAIR platforms. Now this is an extension to where FAIR came from. It's work that no one really else in the world is doing. We have international colleagues who are looking at that and saying that's an interesting idea. Let us know how it goes. So we're exploring the idea of how you might make e-research platforms more findable and accessible and interoperable and reusable and you will have heard in the introduction that I'm responsible for our DC's activities in platforms and software. We're also looking at what FAIR might mean for software but there we are contributing to international activity rather than leading it ourselves. So there is an international working group led through the research data alliance which is looking at what FAIR might mean for software called imaginatively FAIR for research software FAIR for RS. Tom Honeyman the software program lead is involved in a number of the task groups for that. It's been jointly led by RDA, GoFair and CoData and RISA the research software alliance. And if you're interested at all in what FAIR might mean for software I'd encourage you to have a look at that group. If you can't find information please ping me and I can send it to you. So you'll see this increasing emphasis on the importance of FAIR across all of the things that we're investing in and then lastly before I move on to programs specifically I should say that one of the things you'll see in the way we interact with you in your programs is we're very interested in governance. In fact in our all staff meeting yesterday we had a number of our staff who were getting extremely excited about governance. I think indeed one of the people who works for Adrian was almost going so far as to say governance was the most important thing we did. He's wrong but I applaud his useful enthusiasm but governance is certainly very critical and you'll see that we are very keen that the projects that we're all involved in has strong governance arrangements and that we are represented on those governance arrangements. So that's I think as much as I wanted to say on co-investment. Rosie was there anything you wanted to hammer home even further on that before I move on to the wonderful world of platforms? Thanks Andrew everyone I'm so sorry I had to step out mid sentence there but I'm assuming that Andrew has done a wonderful job of concluding with the CEO's comments and if I may take just a moment to say really that I think we're at an amazingly exciting time moving this massively increasing demand for the type of work you're doing really into the mainstream and it's a fabulous opportunity for us coming together to collaborate this afternoon. That was the thrust of it I'm sure Andrew conveyed that but I'm really looking forward to the rest of the Zoom the rest of the WebEx session. Yeah I would have it so hard we're just so used to thinking of Zoom but that's okay we'll mental flexibility Rosie. Okay so let me talk about platforms before I pass to Adrian to talk about national data assets. So platforms unfortunately is one of those overloaded words. Anita Cannon who I see on the call is responsible for the platforms activity at Monash University and they use platforms in a slightly different way to the way we use it. We're defining platforms here as a set of services so these are machine accessible services often that have associated data integration or service orchestration functions or connections to data resources where the goal is to enable researchers to carry out some of their research activities more easily. So you can think of them as an aggregation of tools and services to make life easier for researchers. This is of course in support of this overarching goal of giving Australian researchers this competitive advantage through data. The goal for the ARDC investment in platforms is we're really trying to enable transformative research so we're not just trying to do more of the same we want to enable researchers to transform how they work and then the two open calls that we've run with platforms we've emphasised transformations in the kind of research that could be done so enabling researchers to tackle problems that they couldn't tackle before and transformations in the speed of research that is enabling researchers to do things much more quickly an order of magnitude let's say than they could have before. We've got particular sub-goals we'd like more researchers in more disciplines to have access to these kinds of platforms so Nectar one of the predecessor organisations to ARDC invested in a particular set of platforms we've been seeking to broaden out the remit of platforms and make them available to a wider range of researchers and a wider range of disciplines and the platforms we invested in at the end of last year I think reflect that. But going back to this theme of sustainability that I picked up when I was talking about co-investment we'd also like the community of platforms developers and managers to be more sustainable so one of the thrusts that you'll see in what how we engage with our existing platforms projects is how do you build a sustainable community of people that share best practice that help one another to work more effectively that possibly even exchange developers if developers have particular skill sets so there's a very strong emphasis on that sustainability of the community. I note with some concern that Adrian has wandered off just at his point of the agenda Natasha would you like to tell us something about or possibly Adrian would you like to tell us something about the awesomeness that is the national data assets program. See the national data assets good thank yes the other wing of the current ARDC co-investments is the national data assets. It comes from an increase this is an increase you know ARDC is part of an increase and this is an increase program we are planning through this national data assets program to build nationally significant data assets that will support leading edge research so that's how it fits in as part of the increase principles and increase ethos in this area it just means that you know there are lots of data there's lots of data around there's lots of data assets around we particularly have partnered with the ones with that are complex national partnerships so that's that nationally significant thing because increase acknowledges the great role that local infrastructure and you know plays however it's our role to get involved in those national data assets that are inherently cross institution and cross jurisdiction and they are the ones actually that are quite complex and need quite a bit of support and the ARDC is a logical partner for them the program logic for the national data assets program is fairly simple the inputs I'll stack it across the as a program logic model that has input activity output outcome and impacts in general what we're the whole set of resources and expertise and existing assets come from both the ARDC and a set of partner organizations the activity then in general is to build that data infrastructure and importantly to populate it with real content that has been built on consensus and standards again both these activities are ARDC and you know the partner projects in collaboration working there the typical output we're looking from an for a national data assets project is that there is a new national data infrastructure and it is available it's important as we move on that the outcome actually refers back to the whole increased principle that this data infrastructure should be then used by Australian researchers for leading-edge research so it needs you know that's these outcomes sort of direct the priorities etc of the projects and the program and then the longer term impact is that you know this when this research is done with the new national data infrastructure that that research will bring you know economic and social and environmental benefits for Australia so that's the general program logic that sort of sets out you know how and how and what we're trying to achieve with this program I'll just move on seeing as a Natasha said the theme was Friday afternoon and let's get straight to the point we also so in general across all our programs so the platforms as well as the national data assets and everything we do there is an element of ARDC project support we've been informed by Bunnings where our project investment is just the beginning and at the beginning of a long-term partnership with the groups involved where we continue to provide a whole set of other value-add inputs to the projects I'll just go through some of them this is by no means exclusive where ARDC has underpinning operates underpinning infrastructure and facilitates infrastructure in the area of cloud and storage and we'll be in touch if your if your project is just beginning we'll be in touch to just sort of get an idea of what your technology requirements are and what they might be in these areas ARDC can help where you're not obliged to take our help in in any of these areas but we can help we do we can provide allocations of cloud and storage obviously it has to be suitable for what you need and from our side we have to be able to you know actually it must be feasible for us to provide that but we can look at specialist needs if necessary but that's that'll be a conversation between us and you there is a storage infrastructure thing now just bring your attention to you'll get more communications from us in the next little while but it is time sensitive the ARDC has just launched a stage two data retention program that is not targeted at projects like yours it's targeted at institutions and increased facilities however a good deal of you actually have you know some of your storage requirements would have been taken care of by Australian research institutions and increased facilities if that's the case I would get in touch with them and we'll give you the information you draw them draw their attention to this data attention program that we have and your collection could be included as part of an an institutional package that we would be developing with your institution or with an increased facility so just don't worry if you don't understand all of that but we will be in touch with the projects just to draw your attention to that and the idea is it's not direct support for your individual project but it is storage support that we can provide to an institution or a facility that might well be already interested in supporting you as far as storage is concerned we have a whole set of information services by which you can get access to persistent identifiers like DOIs and a whole range if you have physical samples in your projects we have identifiers that can be used for physical samples we have a lot of assistance in publishing metadata and syndicating the the descriptions of your data collections and other software items and other things and we have a whole set of information services around the publishing and reuse of specific scientific and research concepts so in standardized vocabularies again you'll see you'll hear more about this from us later but just to say that we have those services and all our projects are eligible to use those services and there is no charge for those we have also informatics expert support for all the above so if you didn't even understand what I was talking about a standardized vocabulary don't worry we actually have staff etc who can come into your project and look at it and say well maybe you could actually use that and if you're interested in any of those areas we have experts have been working in this for a number of years that can help the projects in those areas and more broadly and you know what it means to be fair you know what it is to do that kind of data management for findability accessibility interoperability and reuse we have experts on our team that can work with you we have other kinds of experts that are not in that kind of informatics and information sharing but right down at the systems development because almost all of your projects will be developing some kind of an IT system as a core and we have experts that can help in data systems architecture platforms architecture and analysis and support and again we'll be in touch and for example if you have a technical advisory group or team committee in your project we'd have someone who could sit there and as an observer and help as required we also Andrew talked about broader things that the that enable projects in general we call those sort of enabling frameworks that include governance and strategy agreements policy and we're developing that as a capability to support the projects and in everything that we do the last stop point is important I've talked about what we can do for the projects you know we are an amazing organization but we certainly don't have the answers to everything and a lot of the experts are right here on the call and so probably the major thing that we'll be able to do for your projects is this cross-project coordination and pollination we'll be starting up a number of working groups and other sort of clusters etc to share information across the projects so if you have any ideas in that area please so be proactive and sort of suggest to us what I try to get across today is that we are here to support and be part of the projects if there's things that you think you need then get in contact with your liaison and we'll try and develop that into the future so I think that was all from me do we hand back hand back to Natasha is that right yep that's right thank you Adrienne Andrew thank you Rosie great so a chance for you to ask questions there is a question there it's directed at Andrew but I think Adrienne may want to speak to that one as well what about it's from Steve McGeckin Steve you can unmute yourself if you'd like to add anything I just the question was about fair vocabularies and linking into the work that Simon Cox is doing on the 10 simple rules for fair vocabularies which is in pre-print at the moment it's actually a topic of discussion at the NISO conference this week which at a session which the ARDC ran with Simon actually but who would like to answer that where this where the fair vocabs fits in well Andrew introduced the fact that ARDC is interested in complying fair to a whole sort of other things so that's correct yes and and vocabularies as well so if you have a list of important concepts that are that the backbone of standardization for your data collection or or anything in your systems then this ARDC actually runs a service there that is meant to be able to make those standard concepts and standard lists findable accessible interoperable and reusable and yes we're working very very closely with Simon and with you Steve in that effort so yeah thanks for bringing that up that is a another important element of the fairness of everything. Brilliant thank you I am not seeing any other questions in the chat I can't see everybody if this is your chance to unmute and ask a question I'll just give you a little bit of time if anyone would like to. I can see Lujan from Black Mountain. Yes please go ahead. Hi yep I'm just sort of this is Lou from Atlas 3 Australia so I just have a general question instead of direct to anyone from ARDC's management that sort of wishes to address that I guess sort of the new kind of way to work with ARDC is to see ARDC as a co-investor not a grant agency right so you're really a partner of the project and so I guess sort of my question is how detailed would you like to be to be involved in the delivery of the project is because there can be for example you can you can either be sitting on the governor's body and be an sort of oversight of the whole thing to actually get to be part of the sort of decision-making in the day-to-day operations the project management right I guess I guess how detailed would you like to be to be involved in each of the project deliveries. Excellent question I'm going to go Rosie first as the highest ranking officer. Good call. Thanks for bringing up that question and Natasha thanks for giving me the answer to respond because I am going to respond at a higher level. ARDC has never been a funding agency there's just been issues around the way that projects have been selected from a highly competitive space but what makes the organisation and indeed other increased organisations so special is actually the staff the people the staff cohort and the expertise and so the fact that we hire people as Adrian said that are deep experts in all things fair just to take a simple snapshot there we don't hire them just to check reports and compliance so from that philosophical position we have a fantastic cohort of staff with deep knowledge in this space the only limit to participating in the projects is obviously bandwidth so we will do our best to contribute intellectually and deeply to the projects to the full extent of our resources going forward we're looking at how we adjust our own organisational model and increase our staff cohort to further deepen the collaborations that we have for each of the projects so I think what I'm giving is the deeply held belief and philosophy of how we would like to see ourselves in this conversation. Great thank you Rosie and thank you thank you Rosie that's great sorry a bit of a lag time there Andrew you want to add something to that yeah and if I can perhaps provide a specific example that is of course completely consistent with what Rosie has just said for the platforms projects one of the things that we have been offering to the platforms projects both the 2019 and the 2020 open calls is some expertise housed in Adrian's group and indeed housed within the person of John Smalley in Adrian's group so he came to us with significant expertise around architecture and design of large data systems and we have been effectively lending him out to the platforms projects initially to do a a kind of an overview of their technical architectures and the technical approaches they were taking looking at it and saying well okay I noticed you're using this approach had you thought about doing things this way or were you aware that there were later versions of this particular solution that interoperate in these ways and of course as he did more of those he was starting he was able to identify points of intersection and points of collaboration between those projects are you're trying to solve this particular problem that project over there is also trying to solve that problem you should talk to them so that's if you like at one level but in the case of one of our platforms projects the eco commons platforms project he's actually really rolled his sleeves up and got involved in a very detailed architecture review that they were undertaking and has been very much a co-creator of their new architecture now obviously that's to go back to Rosie's point about bandwidth and resource that's a significant involvement and we probably don't have the ability for John to do all of those unless Adrian's secret plan to clone him is going to pay off faster than we thought but that's the that's an instance of the sort of deep engagement that we are prepared to make where it's going to demonstrate real benefit thank you Andrew I think that's really clear answers and thank you Rosie as well that's great thank you for that question Lugina I think a lot of people may have had that question in mind as well okay so there's a question from Ivan Hanigan and he is asking he's interested in your views of the major impacts the COVID pandemic will have for data science and research so for human health and social science there are now new ways to collect data on individual home locations and travel movements or will Australians be more likely to allow private data to be used to support policy research and policy that's in line for disaster preparedness if so what are the implications for our data security systems wow that's a big that is the topic of a webinar who would like to start with the presentation Andrew jump in so I'm cautiously encouraged that 85 percent of Australians are now prepared to have a an anti-COVID vaccine which suggests a degree of openness to moving outside the comfort zone that may not have been around last year the issue of private data and the issue of data security and indeed the issue of how we work with sensitive data is one that's come up over and again Adrienne has in his team a guy called Kristen Kang who's particularly focused on the challenges around sensitive data but I was wondering whether Steve McKekin would like to briefly talk about the one with the five safes approach which is being explored in the cadre project um sure uh when we start well I mean if we're talking about data security and private data you know five safes is where I naturally go to yeah and I think that's probably the model we probably want to think about so for those folks who aren't aware there's the um the five safe model says you know how do you think about safety of people projects data settings and outputs and how we might understand and monitor them so the cadre project we're working on how you might both describe those and incorporate those into some of the data access environments that you might use um the interesting question that Ivan puts is I think actually oriented around do people trust us to use the data uh effectively um and I would say I'm I mean kind of put a counterpoint on um we're doing some work in the center right now which is dealing with hesitancy to vaccinate so so for those who are interested in reading it's actually gone down the number of people who think they will vaccinate rather than up which is a little depressing but yeah but the point there I think about think you know sort of the I think the interesting question here will be the extent to which people are what COVID might tell people about sort of the value of data in actually be able to support um uh some of the you know the research that we need to do to you know keep everyone healthy and then and say contribute to that effort I think that's quite an interesting sort of framework question that um that might guide some of our thinking so that it say there's some there's actually some quite interesting research to be done on willingness to participate in such programs um there's one of these called a cross cutting exercises um that that might be of interest um actually do people you know how have people changed their views from 2016 when we had census fail to now when you know we can see the gains of possibly doing the sharing that's there I just had um questions about you know whether the COVID pandemic will you know perhaps provide some opportunities I have heard experienced people say that you should never let a good disaster go never let never let a good crisis go to waste was Winston Church as long yeah that's right so unexploited for strategic reasons so um and the Christ Church I know that there's someone did an actual study of the Christ Church earthquake disaster that actually ended up having long term uh data sharing uh improvements for the in that area there uh so uh you'd hope that that would be the case and so I think people would be certainly more open and expect science to to have a role in in in supporting that I think this group here that's on the call today actually have a the corresponding role to say yes and you can trust us to do it and the kind of systems that you guys are going to be building through these programs are the ones that can say yes and they've got procedures and they've got the systems and they've they've got our interest in heart and those the uh the interests of the public are reflected in these uh systems and you know that that will be a big part of uh I think there will be an openness and so we've got a an opportunity to show that we can respond to that great thank you there's a couple of follow-up comments from Ivan there in the chat if you'd like to read them um Natasha uh on the bushfire one it might be worth Adrienne very quickly talking about the translational research data challenge yes which one's this the uh smoke thing is that right this one yes yeah Ivan's involved in that uh oh okay bushfire research data challenge but uh in parallel to this the group of people are on the call today we have another set of a different program where we're starting with the problem of bushfires and then asking the question okay what kind of platforms and data and other things would be required for for that and the work that Ivan's already preparing around uh air quality in this program we're taking almost as a given and an input into that program we're seeing how we can great thank you Adrienne um so there's a question there from Hugh um Hugh I'm not sure if you'd like to unmute and ask that question yourself or if you'd like me to to ask it I'll just give you a minute if you'd like to ask it yourself otherwise I will oh okay so he is interested in the working groups oh sorry go ahead didn't give you long enough sorry oh okay I just want to know um who to ask um or who to suggest uh creating you know the creation of a working group who where would I start if I wanted to create a working group across across these ARDC people terrific yes um question was addressed to me I can tell you that the right person to talk to is Natasha who's right there and if she'd like to say anything further and over to uh yeah thanks for the question Hugh so we are hoping that through this uh initial kickoff week with the projects exchange that we will start to see some of those common challenges and um then from that we can actually look at what interest groups we currently have uh whether we need some subgroups to those for example we have a sensitive data community of practice but perhaps we actually need a specific subset on health data or you know we'll see what actually shakes out from the projects exchange but we already have a number of communities of practice that we facilitate in ARDC that are part of the broader community looking at particular challenges in the data space which a lot of these projects will have a link into so I think we'll we will explore that a bit more through the projects exchange through the discussion there and also following that probably about six weeks down the track or so we'd like to do a bit of an orientation to the ARDC data services and expertise and how you can hook into that so we'll fold it into that discussion as well but if you have thoughts you have a program manager that you can get in touch with and we'll also make sure that that information is flowing out to you of what's currently available and how you can hook into those great thank you Hugh um I do not see any other questions and we are just coming up towards quarter two so I think we actually might close it off and thank you all very very much for giving up your time on a Friday afternoon to come and thank you to Rosie Adrienne and Andrew for that excellent information about the ARDC co-investment and what it will mean for your projects so as I mentioned we're kicking off this the first of the project exchange meetings we have a number of them via zoom one hour sessions next week where we'll hear from each of the project leads what's happening in their projects we'll start to look at some of those common challenges in the discussion and as I mentioned a little bit further down the track we'll look at some specific sessions on how you can hook into the ARDC services infrastructure and expertise so thank you all again have a lovely weekend and bye all


Today we have a very interesting company and it's Anna Engholm from Wesseler and she will tell us a little bit about her agile journey, so I think I just will hand it over to you Anna. Okay, and thank you and good morning. I guess, as I said, when some of you were joining, it's just so nice to see old faces. Some of you I haven't seen in a while. It makes me very humble and also proud and also very proud that so many decided to actually join. This is just my story. It's not really that interesting if you ask me. Apparently I have something this year and I remember at some point I said, yeah, Maria, but I'm not the type of person that would do presentations. And then she actually caught me because she said but think about the difference you can make for people out there that are just on your journey as well just would really like to be inspired and then I thought well, I like to share my story and I like to share my journey so I hope that any of you any of it is just useful for you and if you don't like it. It's okay but you can reach out to me and ask all the questions later. That's just perfectly fine. But I think just before we get started, I'll share a bit about who I am for those who don't know me, and also probably for those who know me. I'm not sure that you know my CV and the story like that. And also share a bit about the company that I'm in and the part of the organization I'm working within as well. So we did actually prepare or we didn't I prepare the short presentation for you guys that I will share with you here. So, first of all, who am I. Well, I'm a ending home and I've been working in the cellar and the IT department of this cellar as a senior people business partner for a bit, almost a three and a half years. I've been working in HR since a 2002 so I can't even. That's quite a few years. Actually when you start doing the calculation but anyways I've been working in HR for a period of time my background is completely different by actually I'm a translator and interpreter but don't ask about that. I think it was back in 2007 or eight and just work my way around that a working in a design company for quite some years, primarily within HR than in a in a manufacturing company, then I came into a fashion company, which is called the store. And now a best of which is also a fashion company and we like to think of ourselves as a tick company as well. So some of the background that I actually wanted to just I just put up here is say I think where what made the biggest difference for me in my. What is that called educational background is actually when I got my master in digital innovation. It's my second master. And we're also certainly when I got to the agile people coach when I took the education from agile people back in the 2000 and 20. It's approximately one and a half years ago since I finished that. So enough about me I'm really not that interesting, I can share with you that I'm a, I'm only 48 years old, I live in Denmark, in the Netherlands. And the type of person who like to run and stuff like that. But again, I live in the countryside and outside today just looks to be a beautiful beautiful day so I hope that they will just stick that way. But anyways, enough about that and enough about me. So a best seller for those of you who don't know best seller I will just run through this very fast best seller was found just found it back in 1975 by the couple others and Merida Paulson. And actually, today they are it's a much bigger company with 20 different fashion brands I will show you a slide on that in a second so if you don't, if you're not sure if you know best seller you will know in a bit. And we are today owned and also a, you could say, run by Anna Paulson, who's the son of Anna's trolls and right. And he has been heading up best seller at the entire company of best seller since 2001. We are deeply rooted in our vision and I think this actually is very for those of us who are inside the walls best seller would know that this is true that we actually base our every day on being one world one philosophy and one family and nearness is just one of the very important things that they actually stand out for us. We live by our family principles that were actually made back in 75 by told Paulson and I think a you all know this then you go onto a website to see them are they really there but for us they really are, and we live by them and I actually myself use them. Often, just to guide me on a daily basis should I go this way or that way, and the founding principles will let me know the approximately 18,000 people. And we have 20 different brands and we are placed in 38 different countries. These are some of the brands, hopefully some of you know them. And if not, I can only urge you to go find them because we actually a, we have a great stuff on the shelves in the stores. I work in vessel IT, as I said, and I will just share a bit with you on who vessel IT is for a couple of minutes. This is us. This is us right before the pandemic hit us. So, but I think it actually shows very well who we are, and also the spirit that we have within the approximately 250 people supporting the entire 18,000 people in the vessel. We have quite a few different nationalities about 37 teams and I think the fundamental also the reason why we're here today is that we actually work agile. In vessel IT, we support the entire supply chain. So that means from the brands getting idea of their wanting to design something and also both sourcing and getting a good produce and actually also deliver to us getting into our big logistics centers before it hits either wholesale or also our retail, but we support it all so whether it's a cash register that's not working or it's me that's not able to print. We just have to be able to actually support that from an IT perspective, just so you know that we cover quite a lot and 250 people suddenly doesn't seem like a lot, at least not to me. We have founded our vision in IT is that IT means business, and we have some strategic drivers to actually deliver on that. For myself, I support and work primarily with a belonging grow and also the one that's called a guy lemon dishes, but I will not tire you with any more of that. So I think that was just the beginning of that. Yeah, we thought we were going to do it a little bit differently than just than just having a presentation. So the intention is for me, I will start and ask some questions and then if you want you can raise your hand and then we will let you also ask questions. It's going to be much more fun that way I think it will be but 63 people so we need to coordinate it somehow, but please raise your hand and we will let you in. We have been talking a little bit on it and I know you joined the change process has already started when you joined best seller. Can you, can you say a little bit about the background, why things happen and how, where it was when you arrived. I can at least share what I've heard. And I can see we have people in the call that actually were there so if you want to correct me please feel free to do so. But yes, one of the things that we'd experienced was that we were very much focusing on one big project in the IT delivering a one big project for our entire organization rolling out a new system. And at some point we also understood that we somehow had lost the connection to our stakeholders and also the close link, delivering what they actually needed but also delivering it fast so delivering the right solution at a fast pace. So that was one of the reasons so we also wanted to become a bit more efficient, and then get this close collaboration with the stakeholders so we would actually deliver what they were asking for at a certain place and then I think also. In IT we were very good at delivering support and also operations but doing a development and digitalization was not our primary focus. So we wanted to change that a bit. And I also know that I joined in October 18 and that was just right after the transformation like from day to day have happened. But already back in January the same year so exactly four years ago they started a pilot project to see so what which from actually what would that work like for us and could it work so they set up a small pilot project. And I heard it was with approximately 25 or 30 people in a smaller team within the retail area, where they actually tested out did this work or did network, and the top management came to the conclusion that it has been such a great success that they wanted to go agile in the entire organization. And so they did in a June 2018. Yeah, but getting closer to the customers actually was and delivering right solutions faster.  Well the funny thing is that I also shared this with you and I love to share this story because during my interviews that went on in August and September so the transformation happened in the in June and I joined in October so when I had the job interviews. I never actually heard about that child. And there could be two reasons for that either because I just did not understand it and had an idea of I had to listen in for that, or the company just didn't share that much with me on that. And they, I haven't tested it with those who actually hired me so what was it, what was it but what they did do was ask me to work on a, how do we do change management. And I did something on that and I also asked them when I was hired so why did you pick me, and they actually said well because we think you can bring the calmness, and also the neon is back into the organization. And I have to be honest and say I had no idea what they meant by that, until I actually walk in the door I think. Yeah, so but you never don't you never know what it is to join a company or go into a new job until you're actually there. So, but yeah, and my role was then just to be HR. And this is a, this is a, we have a HR department called people, and then we have business partners business partners, either working from people and just a borrowed out into the business or you employed and sit and work in the business and I sit in it. I have a direct reference to our CIO, and I sit in our leadership team also. So I sit out there and I represent the HR and I build HR stuff and build the organization so that is my role and that has been my role from day one. That it got a different connotation to it when I joined in. It's a different story that we will touch upon in a minute I think. Yes. So you arrived and you were going to do HR and and can you a little bit describe the different faces you have gone through on your journey, because I guess you started from scratch. I mean, there are like two journeys so there's my own but I think you're also referring to the one that SLIT went through on their agile journey. Yeah. So I think first of all we actually went from being this traditional a plan been run organization and then actually being set up in or transformed into an agile setup. And we actually said to all our development teams that we want you have to run scrum and try to see what scrum can do for you it's like the, what is it Shuhira or Shuhari I can't remember it anymore but it's like a follow the book, then they break the rules and make your own your own rules so we asked them to actually follow the follow the rules so but getting the concept right getting into what what is it actually to work agile so I think that was the first face landing on our two own feet, having all the teams set up in the scrum and his teams and all that that was the first phase, and it was not as short face, it was a long face and I think for many of us it was also a difficult phase to be in. Because for many of us, I think a going from being the leaders that we were where we had we were wearing all the hats to suddenly just having either you're the product owner the scrum master or whatever I think that they that was a that was at the beginning just finding our feet to stand on in a new setup. And then I think a the next phase has been actually to a to start working agile and one thing is I think someone said to me at some point you can work 100% agile or is scrum without being agile at all, because it's all about the mindset and I think that's what we've been working with very much. I mean, it's here to stay so now it's been here for three and a half years and it's not really going back thing for the first year some of us were actually asking ourselves is it just going to go away again and we will just go back and just to the know the well known and maybe also a comfortable place to be. Yeah, and today we are. I think we're a different maturity level so if you asked me are you agile I would say yes, still have teams that are at different levels when it comes to working agile but we are at a different place and also a bit of place when it comes to that. But then you challenges arise. Yeah. So what are your next steps. In the IT, we are very much focused, we are very much focused on getting out just building even stronger teams. So for the past half year we, at least when we decided that we work with OK us and one of our objectives is to grow teams and communities. And when we talk about this growing teams, I think I even brought it on to the agenda myself I had this idea we just go ahead work with psychological safety. That's what they need. Then I think we realize that maybe we should start somewhere else so we've been doing trainings where we've been training our scrum masters to be not only facilitate us but actually true leaders and taking them on a journey with a we've used an external emergency to help us that so we know that our scrum masters have lifted to a level where we actually a where they can push the teams even more but that also they know what's their role because we've had people come and leave this from master community and this from master role. So now it's, it's this community that we started again and they've been training together and I'm just, I'm so proud to see what they what they have a what they have accomplished over the past just six months it's just amazing. And we decided to do the same thing with the product owners. So they also a so for us to build strong teams we need the fundament to be there. So to make sure that also all our product owners actually deliver on the product vision so we know where we had it they know how to actually how to work with the stakeholders how to prioritize the backlog and all those kinds of things. So that's also one of the, one of the, the things we've been working with. So maybe psychological safety is the next thing. And I'm not sure, but I will also work with the scrum masters in that community. And then another focus we have is to work with a building a strong communities. So, for a very long period of time we had a one community or a couple of communities and also the scrum master and the product owners they started out then they closed down because it just did not really work and we found out that it what it takes to run great communities maybe to have a facilitator. So we're working with that and today we have 11 different communities within a couple within the development one for that to for the architects I think we also have a scrum master community, people community people it is a different role that we can also touch upon because we did something a bit out of the ordinary scrum master community level so we have different kind of communities to build the cross team collaboration but also make sure that we actually work in some kind of similar cadences across the organization. Great. It's a very quiet audience. You are allowed to ask questions. You showed me because you mentioned how you built your your scrum masters and product owners but you have you showed me a slide, a little bit where you showed the the responsibilities. The people. I don't remember what you called them. Yeah, should I share with you what actually happened on that account. Let me just I will, I will go into the slideshow again. So you don't have to look at me diet either I think there's such. Please, please ask questions. Yeah, if you have any just a I'd be happy to share anything I know or I don't know. Anyways, when, when we had made this transformation we also learned very fast that we have to bring back and then it's back into the organization one thing that actually happened was when we did the transformation it turned out that suddenly we were a, I think eight or 10 people in the top management team and the span of control was for several of these leaders sitting there was something like a 50 plus and I think the one who had the most and I break the report was actually 56. And it turned out that when I joined in October they just finished the development talk period. And I think for many of the managers they had this idea that they were very present because they are constantly speaking with the employees. But I think for the employee that was number 46 in the row of the development talks, and then hadn't been seen for a very long period of time. We actually lacked a bit of nearness, and it was also very vulnerable, very vulnerable time in our organization because we were not giving instructions this is how you should work or this is what you should do what we left it actually up to the teams on their own to define how could we, how should we works from how should we, how should we set up the team and how should we work together, just a very classical is from with no cookbook but a lot of ideas. So, what we learned very fast was actually that we had to do something to bring back the nearness to the organization. And also, we also learned very fast that sitting in a development talk with a leader that had no idea about what was the product that we put up in this product team. And we had which had the end to end ownership so many of us, some of our employees will go in have a dialogue and agree this is the course I'm going to take or this is the conference I would attend. And then we're going to go back out into the, into the team and say, Oh, I'm going to this conference and the team would be. Okay, could you just repeat to me, why is that relevant to our product, or why is that relevant to the product vision we have. I think to actually be aligned so what we were working on and developing ourselves in the direction in the team we should be something that would be working for for the team and they also support the product. So we had to build some HR processes and a trainer in leadership. So first of all what we did is very classical just to say the span of control was simply too big so we had to reduce it, but it's just how do you actually do that. And today we have a span of control teams are in general, eight between eight and I think between eight and 12 I would rather say a couple of bigger and some of them are big smaller blah blah blah so in average they're around 12. But I think this is the slide you were talking about English net. Yeah. So, actually, the teams that we have supported by the scrum master which will do with the scrum masters for us on the team. And a, as I said before we are trying to build this truly the ship when a the new scrum guide came out in was it 21 November 21 I think, said, we were going from being secretaries or coordinators to actually being truly this but that is a shift that is not having overnight. But the scrum master has the team, build the team, work with the team and help the team and just improving and working together and also own the events. So they would facilitate that they might a delegate some of the events to others but as such it aligns with the scrum master. Then we have the product owner and the product owner. Actually is the person that has the stakeholders, they, they own the product or the team owns the product but as such the product owner is also the one to make the product vision, and also to prioritize the stuff that comes from the stakeholders on what are we working on. So they own a own that part, and very much into the stakeholder management. And then we have a certain lead and the circle lead is what you could say the people that are actually in the leadership team. And that was, that was a setup we had in the beginning, but then we actually introduced this people lead role, and this is an odd one in an agile setup. You don't find that in the books, but we learned very fast and those of you who are very quick would also have seen the, when I had the front page of the slideshow it said maybe there's an eye in teams after all, we learned very fast that you cannot just put people together in teams and just expect them to have this a honesty openness and just work together without problems. So, we found out that we needed someone who could actually work closely with with people and help people land in this setup. And then you could ask, but what is the people lead, and the people lead is someone who actually has focused on the individual, and then you could ask, but didn't you just say that that's wrong and that's also what you are working with from a HR perspective that you had to change that around. Yes, but we actually believe that we needed that. So it's someone that's just there to hold your hand, and they actually help you land in the teams they are also the ones to have some of the administrative stuff so illness or vacation stuff like that but in general and they also own the HR processes. So, this is the people lead role, which is, as I said, a bit of an odd one. And I think one thing that we did from the beginning so when we knew and also I knew and I think that's probably in one of, in one of my, to be honest, I can say this in this closed forum, one of my biggest challenges was actually to understand how to work at my self. So what we did we actually create a people lead community and it wasn't this community that we built all the HR processes. I come from a role as an HR director in an manufacturing company and I held a great roles where I was the one to decide so this is how we do people stuff, this is how we work with HR. So if we wanted to sign a development talk in a different, in a different way, I would decide. So, and I would also a, I would own all the processes I would design a what is going to happen when over the year, all that. But if I should also be agile and HR should also be agile in this setup. We also just learned very fast that maybe we should take our own medicine and actually work with my closest they call dots and those for the people leads. So how could we together build what was right for the organization that what I thought was right but what actually my stakeholders out in the organization thought was right for their people. So we did that. So they actually helped build all the HR processes I have a couple of examples if you want to know but they, as soon as we realize that actually, you cannot, you cannot work on an individual level as a, as we do in traditional HR but you have to work on teams for everything you do. That was a very difficult for for us at least but that's what we did. My role has been to be the facilitator so I own this community and it's a we just turned three years old so and you could think that well shouldn't it, should you do something but it's still running and trying to reinvent the community every now and then, but my job is to just to make sure that we are facilitated right. My job is to make sure that we actually push ourselves a bit, but also that we stay relevant so we tried several times in this community actually to build the backlog of things we want to work on so we would have something we could go back to and say, Well, now this is important for us, but we never really this is because a constantly when we meet in the community. New topics come up or whatever is relevant to the organization. Now they talk about career path. Okay, let's grasp it or they're talking about hybrid workforce. Okay, let's let's grasp it so we work with whatever is relevant for our organization and the people as well. So, yeah. Yeah, I don't know if that's what you're looking for but that's at least. Then I guess one question what is the general size of the team. As I said, it's between eight and 12. And I think I haven't counted, but I do have an organization such chat somewhere where I could count but we actually try to keep them at a not getting too big. And if they get too big oftentimes we have teams, you know they arise and disappear, depending on what the business actually needs from us. So if we have a new needs or digitalization product or a project or we have a request for specific functionality so anything like that systems in the business. Well, our teams would have to work with that and if it's a such a big request that requires new team to rise it will. And I think even we have someone in the room here who was part of that so when we did a digital showroom I think it came up. And then, and that's the team. Just so you know. Yeah. Then we have another question. What change in terms of HR vision approach and initiatives. That's a good question because a for those of you who know me just a bit you would know that a I am not at all into a HR strategies and five year plans and stuff like that, but we work intuitively. If you can ask me so where you headed. You could I could I could give you words on that because I know where we headed and I know that but as such, there is a very strict vision from a people perspective in this overall in this system. We have eight people goals that we have to follow and that we actually support and we also support that from it perspective, but working with a, I never made an HR vision. We have a You break up a little bit. We made a. Okay. Yeah, now we hear you. Okay, I'm sorry for that I have us very on. Nobody's on the phone. Nobody's on the telly. Nothing is happening in the house today I said do not because we have a stable line on state line I'm sorry for that. Okay, I'm not sure I lost it there. What was I did I did I answer the question I'm not sure. I think you did. Yeah. And then there's another part looking back at the experience you had what would you, what would your advice be to other organization that still are in the beginning of this journey and not so experienced yet. I think. Well it depends on not experienced in working agile, or if it's just we work agile but we're not experienced in working a agile HR wise. So because I would think what I learned very fast they say I knew that something was wrong with all the tools that I had in my toolbox and the way that we actually work with HR. But it's very difficult to design something new if you have no idea of what's the context you're designing for. So just understanding agile. So what are the fundamentals of the agile you don't have to be an agile ninja to actually succeed with that just understanding what's the mindset what are they the fundamentals of it and building from there from there. So my advice would be to understand what are the fundamentals what's the concept, and then I think they're to be courageous. Yeah, and also there to build so what feels right. So much of the stuff that we built in best ally T is not because we read it in a book. Maybe we did that later when we learned about agile people but we built it because we thought it was right. So we built it from our gut feeling we build it from experience what we thought was right for the organization so I think that would be my advice. Maybe stay too close to the organization and they give them what they need not necessarily what they want. I think that's also something from agile. Then, then there is question. I like this. And you elaborate on the people. Can you elaborate on the people lead is not a title but a role. Can anyone be a people is it a temporary role or is it the only role. This is funny. Yeah, I love this when we work from home. Yeah. Okay, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. Yes, I can elaborate on that. So actually when we designed the people lead role it is a role. It's not a title. So a, I'm not sure I do, I do think we have a couple of people who actually used it as a title over time but as such it's it's not that so you would be a product owner and a people lead. And those of you who are just a bit smart here would say but doesn't that contradict so on one hand you have to push the team push the individual push everything from a stakeholder perspective and the product and then on the other hand, you have to be like have the project and make sure that they land in this in a good way. That was also a challenge we had and we work with but as such it's, you could be a people lead a together with something else and that would mostly we have that a scrum master people lead product owner people lead and a few that are agile coaches and people lead. Yeah. I don't know if that actually answered the question I just elaborated on it. Good. Good. Can you name some points where you need to use hacks. I mean the situation where it seemed people block agile, or people were not able to adapt scrum or something. I think I don't know if we use hacks and they I'm not prone to using the concept of hacks but then again I think we don't do anything but that. So, and the question was about so if we do agile but let me just answer it from a different perspective because you have to remember that I work in HR. I'm not an agile coach. I do not own the agile agenda such. So I work from an HR perspective, but we do have oftentimes where people make us or we make assumptions in the organization, or we have difficulties in actually accepting things. And then we we work in close dialogue with the organization to actually change that. So, and HR perspective could be so when the people each came right after a period of time with development talks, this is exactly a year ago they came and said well we need career paths. We don't have career paths in a best seller. We don't have it in the IT we did have it in IT right before the agile transformation but we don't have it today. Then we actually became very curious so when the people need say we need career paths, let's ask our people why our career path so important to you. And then we said to them we don't have career paths in the best seller IT what do you make of that. What do you think they said, they said, career paths, we don't want that. Don't put me in a box, give me an idea of where I can go instead, but don't put me in a box. So I think it's also being very curious about not just assuming that we know what they mean when they say something or just diving into actually understanding what the problem is and work with the right thing. So instead of making career paths we made something different we made some cheat sheets of role expectations instead and I think we're working with that right now and it just made a world of a difference for many of us for both our employees but also certainly for the people as well. Yeah, you had something in your presentation about that and when we have been talking, we discussed a little bit of remuneration and compensation but then you said we are trying this out but our emphasis is on growing people so. Yes. I just need to understand if you want me to share something I referring to any you had a slide where you had this career. Okay, I got it. I got it this day, because we're talking about different things I think this might be the one you're asking for and is that correct. Yes. So this is actually what we came up with instead with the career path and then they let me just go on to the renomination part after that so when we work with them. This people said they wanted career paths. We were curious about that and found out that that's not what they wanted but they wanted something to get an idea where to go. So we learned very fast that maybe we have all the stories in the organization already. So sharing stories from people who actually made their own path. So for us and this is also something that I learned from agile people from the training that we did there but also on a conference that I participated in. You have to set your own GPS so where you headed, but you might go up a bit go down a bit so we talk about career paths as career mosaics instead. And I think that's actually what we're trying to illustrate by also telling stories of this guy who was a princess he became a supporter today he's one of our best developers or someone else who just made a different path but you have to go the strict line, but you can go whichever way you want to go but just set your, your mind on something, set your GPS on something and let us work on that together. And for that we also created these role expectations and that's also a concept that we actually stole from a some of the trainings we did with agile people, or at least was inspired to work with these role expectations so this is a very strict role description, saying that this is but it's more so what's expected of me when I joined this role, what's the contribution I will have in the team and what's the contribution that I actually will give to facility. So these are so it gives you an idea of so I might be sitting today being a supporter and I'm dreaming of becoming an analyst. So what does it actually take for me in one column so what do I have to be able to. And then you asked me that's true someone had asked you yesterday or were curious about how about renumeration or pay compensation did we actually work with that and I said to you also was. No, no, we haven't done the let's just give the team a bag of money let them share it amongst them because that's where we are as I shared from the very beginning today, we could focus on how can we build even stronger teams and we actually believe that our teams are not there yet. So, and right now what we're working on a, or you could say what we had before was a when we did people review, many of you know the process of nine grits and stuff like that. So you would have to if you were going to have a pay raise you would probably have to get a specific number or you would have to, you might have been a six or seven I don't know I wasn't here at that time. So I was only told a but what we did at the beginning was a of the journey here was to split it up very strictly somewhere did they. We have to do the people review and those of you who are into this truly agile stuff would say but you wouldn't do the people review, but I have to.  So we have to also deliver on some of that stuff, but we do people review our way so it's not so it's not so much about the numbers but it's much more about the people. It's about how can we actually grow the people and help each other to have different perspectives and how can we help each other grow grow the people and today, it's just completely separated so there's no link at all between being a five and if you're having a pay raise or not that's handled by the teams will be given some of money and that's some of money is given to the people eat some people eat say well I in this perspective I will just give them the same amount all of them. In other teams they the people eats have decided differently so but it's up for the TV people each actually do that. Yeah, we have two question, even if you have these sheets sheets. How do you improve for each role. And then there's another connected to this did you consider using tea profiles for career paths and personal development and they are linked together yeah. Yeah, I think I started with the tea profiling it's like, it's a very a. Fundament, and we are working with a making a tea profiles that we just share a short minute with you a different day. We think I think we have it right up here. This one. So one thing we did was actually to build this concept and I think it actually supported very well so a in this. This is a concept where the team does a development talk. So they actually agree on what are the competencies that we have in the team that are most important for the team for the product vision so if we're going to deliver on that and the roadmap for the next six months what are the competencies that we have today. And then afterwards discuss that and then after that they go in and discuss so what are the competence that we actually need, but having into an ownership in the team goes without saying you need to have the tea profiles. You could sit here being in a team, the teams have like analysts developers architect supporters, anything it would go into, sorry, would go into go into the team but if you think that I'm only here to do my task, working on that and not being prepared to pick up a team, even if if one of our customers calls us, or the stakeholders grab hold of us, that's not how it works so we try to work with that and when they do this, they actually start up the session by actually discussing so what is it to be a T shaped profile. So just so you know, there was the first question and I didn't hear that. I heard it but I forgot it was so engaged in the second question sorry for that. So if you have these sheets sheets how do you improve for each role. So, how do I improve the individual. So because we do have. Yeah, the same person Amina is asking how do you estimate the level of competency and in improvement plans for each role. You just saw that. Right. So that's just that's actually what happened. I'll just share the slide again. So this is actually what happens here. So what you can see it's not really easy to see but you have the pie charts up here and what the team does is so these are the pictures these are the people going down here and then you have the competencies out here and those of you who are a bit smart would say, those are a lot of competencies. Today they go through a co creation process first to agree on what are the 10 most important competencies that we need in the team for the next six months. They go through it and say well I'm a 25% or I'm 30 or I'm 50% or 75% depending on the level of proficiency I have on this level, and then the team would discuss it so if you're 75, I'm only 25. And then when we first have to find so what is, what is the actual picture right now, but if we're going to deliver on the vision going forward. What do we need to develop so first of all are the competencies or a knowledge that we don't have today that are needed within half a year that some of us should look start looking at. So we could add that and that could be is that I start with a zero but after half a year I have to be 25% I would have to know what is the software something like that. In the team you actually discuss. So what's my level of proficiency, but also here we don't stop there, the teams also discuss so if I commit to actually getting better at this area to support the team and they are products development. So how am I going to do it, say they appear to be a training, am I going to read a book, am I going to do a tutorial, whatever that is, that's actually all put up here. And of course cobit 19 made us go online with this concept and it works just perfectly fine as well working on a mural board and many of them decide either to put this in Gira or they have it in a, in a, in simply in an Excel spreadsheet. So this is where it's defined. What also happens is after that you would go in. Let me see if I can share a slide here, because we also have this in the cellar. The overarching the seller we have a concept called my growth and we would go into my growth dialogues that is a classical development talk. After you've been with your team, you would have that after you made the commitment in your team to this is what I commit to do and what I will be getting becoming better at. Then you would go into a micro dialogue with your people lead and for the people need this is much more. It's much more about making sure that people are engaged motivated happy and feel that they're actually using their competencies to the fullest. And the question is also is there anything I as a people you can do to support you on the journey you promised to go on with the team. So this is how we work with it. And what what happens. We have a question I what happened if I work in one team and I want to do something different because I've been doing this for some time and I want to grow outside of the team what happens. Then a hopefully my my strong believe is and my strong hope is that people will talk to their people lead about it, because that's the type of confidence reality that we try to work with and build with the people needs. And for those of you in the call who also have been people leads I know that you were handpicked to be people leads because the heart was in the right place. And because we have a people perspective and people skills. And then I think that actually is the most important thing so that the confidentiality and the openness and the honesty. So you dare to say, I think I need something else. And they helped me look in the direction that you could look into the cheat sheets or we could consider if you simply just need to work with the same thing but on a different product and come to a different team. And just be open and honest about it and we'll do everything we can to actually embrace it and see if we can move you somewhere else. We don't want people to leave us. We want people to stay. And also today our retention rate is like really really high people don't leave us our employee turn over is like really low, just on the verge of being unhealthy low so and, but so many new people joined us so I'm not scared of that. We also have a lot of new competencies joining us so we have the diversity in the team so are the knowledge. I hope that answered the question. Yes. We had one question here. What kind of resistant challenges you had to face in moving people from waterfall to an agile scrum mindset. Again remember I was not there but then again again I remember the day that I walked in the door and the second of October 2018 and they entire organization was they were shivering they didn't know which links to stand on or what is this all about and I think the challenge was simply to getting the concept right and understanding it. So it's much also about the mindset. So understanding that they suddenly I can make the decisions. So it's suddenly that I am actually part of everything so that I don't look up and so what do you think boss, but it's actually the boss looking at you or your product owner and the team asking so what should we do. So the concept of shared leadership. So that the person with the most knowledge actually is also the one to be the expert here and help them. Yeah. So something like that would be my answer to that. Yeah. Yeah, and then can you change team in case you want new challenges I think you kind of went into that one. We want that. But I'd like to just stress also that it's easy for me to say, but you all have been in companies where you think, should I say something I shouldn't know or is it maybe easier to leave the company and get a different job.  You would say the same, but we have the best team at all. It's like a we know honestly, and I can share this with you and don't say to anybody but I think when I joined the DNA. And that was a, that was in vessel it was different than the DNA we have across the entire organization today. We have spent so much time hiring for attitude training for skill, and just building a strong good teams and where we just did the the DNA that runs in the people that we actually have us join us is the right one with the hardest in the right place and they are curious and all that kind of stuff so I think the team that we have I don't want it to change I know that it will change but I don't want it to change. So I really sincerely hope that people will speak up and ask so yes they can change teams. So just a few quick last word. This hour has one just gone by so fast. I have so much more to share. So, but just to wrap up a little bit. You probably touched a little bit but but but what are the positive learnings and what have been the largest challenges for you. Yeah, yeah, I am almost crying thinking about it. I think my biggest challenge was to go from being traditional to understanding what what agile HR is all about. I have to take my cab and turn it 180 degrees around and just, it's a shift. It's a paradigm shift. And what I'm struggling with today is say, I need peers, all over the place. I met agile people and I've met, I've met some of you through agile people, and we are on the same page but I often time meet other HR people. So what is the paradigm shift and I actually struggle a bit to explain it, because I can say people review and we all have a concept of understanding what is people review, but understanding it in a different set of how do we think about compensation or how do we think about anything, not career path, but career mosaic, it's just, it's the mindset. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges that I'm still facing today. The organization, the challenge that I'm facing is probably more intrinsic and it's much more about accepting that I don't just do HR, but I work so much on developing the organization and I think that's been for those of you who know have been with me for many years, it's just like what I do. So I cannot not a react to things that are going on, things that are sensing that is not working so we have to fix it. So go into the organization, investigate it, be curious about that. And I've done it always but I'm just doing it in a bit of a different perspective so running three communities is not something that was written in my path, I think that I was going to do that but I really enjoy it and I love it but it's, and I probably one of my biggest challenges is could I ever go back to a traditional HR setup and I cannot. I know for sure I cannot and so I will stick in the SLIT for the rest of my life, but I'm also having a great time here I'm so grateful for the options that I've had. I think another challenge that I might be facing also is that I constantly have to be aware of we're just a small dot in a big organization, 18,000 people, 250 of us working agile and a bit of people in our own and we don't work agile together. So how can I grasp all the traditional stuff that comes and just twist and turn it a bit so it's edible for us in our organization. But I think when we started out our HR director she was like what is this why can't you just until and today she's like that's interesting tell me more about it. So it's, I think that has changed a lot also so it's a but it's also been three and a half years. So my biggest learning is, I think that it's very personal but I think my biggest learning is the courage there to think differently there to stand out and there to follow your guts. We don't have to read a book we don't have I like to be inspired you saw today some of the samples been inspired by it, but I always take it and chew on it and twist it and turn it and how can we sometimes it's just one word or one sentence that makes the world of the difference for us starting a new journey inside our organization. Yeah. Yeah, I think that was very well said. I think it doesn't think we have any more questions from from from the participants but I think that would be a very great end on this event so thank you so much Anna for sharing your journey. I really appreciate you put not just a corporate presentation but the personal touch. Thank you and thank you for having me and for those of you who are not linked in with me please do so. It's just ending home.