As people keep joining just to make sure it sounds working for everyone. Sound is working, Richie. Hello everyone. We will wait a few more moments for folks to arrive. We're trying a new format today. All right, Amy, do you think we got enough to get started? 21. Yeah, 21. We're going to get so like. Yeah. Awesome. All right, welcome everyone today is Tuesday, December 5th. You've made it to the meeting. So you're familiar with the logistics and the LF antitrust policy. Notice if you're not, please take a look at the slide deck that went out on the mailing list. We have several to see members present here today, but we are not making any voting decisions. We're trying a new format. So to see is going to talk a little bit about our current work and then we're going to go into discussion and then Q&A with our tag leadership. Right. Next slide. So quick update from the TOC. Now, hopefully we've resolved any confusion associated with annual reviews. By the way, tags. If you do have some confusions or questions on these, do speak up during the discussions person. The TOC is going to be picking up any annual reviews that are not tag labeled. That means if you go to the TOC project board and you click on annual reviews, anything that does not have a tag dash label associated with it, the TOC is going to be conducting the annual review for that. There are several that we have already done that are complete and have been merged. Any projects that are falling less than 50% of what we kind of expect from a sandbox project will be opening an issue directly on those project repositories with our roadmap and kind of a little bit more of expectations for bringing them back into a good state of health. Any annual reviews with a tag label on them, we're still looking to the tags to have those completed. There was a question on whether or not that can be extended due to contributor bandwidth availability in the impending holidays. So I believe we've made that available through January 1st. To give folks a little bit more time, but if you do have any questions on that, reach out in the TOC channel or chat up your TOC liaison for your tag. And then we also have three TOC members that are going to be providing direct feedback for project health review and automation. Amy, did we have who they are listed? I'm forgetting. We didn't, but it was Duffy and it was Aaron and it was Justin. There you go. So if tag leaders, if you have any feedback on project health review or automation, reach out to those individuals. I believe we've captured most of what's been discussed with the tags based on the November 16th meeting. So those will be included in there. But as with all things in software development, we start with a few small changes and then we iterate and improve and move forward. So we're not going to get it all done at once. Based off of our last discussion we had, we're still looking for feedback on a few different topic areas from the tags. What's missing in the ecosystem that we're not covering as well as what should the tags be focusing on, kind of a little bit more about the scope and the charter of the tags as well as how they're engaging with projects, how they're providing information out to adopters or guidance. So those discussions are over on the TOC repo. And then December 12th is a sandbox applications review meeting for the TOC. So tag members, if you have a moment, please take a look through the ones that are in the upcoming queue and provide any comments, feedback, insight based off of your knowledge experience and any presentations associated with that particular project that certainly helps the TOC in our decision making for acceptance. Any questions, comments, feedback, additions to the TOC update? All right. Let's move on to TOC and tag discussion. So during our KubeCon TOC tag meeting, there was a proposal to shift how we're doing our monthly tag updates to be more discussion oriented. So we threw together the slide deck I've already gone through with the pre-reads on all the tags. So you'll have comments on your slide. TOC members I know are also still providing comments on some of that. So please take a moment to respond to those questions. But in the interim, I wanted to kind of open this up to discussion for folks. What tag supports projects related to messaging and databases? We can certainly start there. Tag storage, how do you all feel? I created this. I was hoping the tag storage would say yes. Yeah. So hi. This is Xing, one of the tech storage here. So, yeah, I think this should be part of tag storage. We already have Provega in tech storage, which provides storage systems to support streams. They actually publish a blog comparing Provega with Kafka. So I think this, let's see what is this, the project name. Streams, yeah. So this should be operator to support Kafka. Yeah, should be part of tag storage. So anything has to do with data, right? So that's for streaming. That should be part of tag storage. Databases, where we also have, we have Vitas, supports the horizontally scale my SQL. We have been talking to Clowny to PG, which supports horizon operator for Postgres SQL databases running Kubernetes. So any projects that has to do with data, I think that should be part of the tag storage. There are also a few projects for key value paths that are already part of tech storage. Okay, that sounds like we need to make sure that we have those well documented for tag storage because I'm assuming the question came up because it's not immediately clear for a lot of community members. Yeah, yeah, I agree. So we probably should be doing that. Maybe update our read me section for our page. Okay, yeah, let's do, I will do that. Yeah, we do have to start with that. We have, we have those projects listed there, but it's just, we don't really have categories to describe what they are. It's not clear. Yeah, this was an open question that we had during the Kubecon meeting is the kind of the subdomains of each of the tags starting to document what those are, checking in with your liaisons, ensuring that they make sense and that they align.  I'm curious what your thoughts are here. Yeah, one of the things that's about to come up for the tag storage for tag storage because of what's in the sandbox queue is needing to come up with some sort of working rules to define what is a cloud native database and what is not. Okay. Because there's a project in the sandbox queue that is a database that is certainly usable in a cloud native context, but it's also quite usable outside of a cloud native context. Okay. And, and tag storage is going to need to start, you know, decide, you know, because need to decide when, when is it that we say no to a new database that wants to be a part in the CNCF because it's not cloud native. Okay. Okay. So that's something we should work on. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I will pin you flying as well just to talk about this and talk to other tech leads. Alex. Hi. Sorry. I was late joining the discussion on the concept of what's included as part of the work that's going into the landscape version two, we should probably also make sure that those projects are appropriately tagged that way too. And it kind of gives people a bit of guidance. I do have a bit of a similar comments around things like databases when it comes to cloud native, but Josh mentioned right. We, there are, there's obviously, you know, things like and things like that, which are built for cloud native and designed specifically for cloud native. But I think we should also consider sort of things like cloud native operators and things like that. And that was something that's not, that's something that's not often clear and often has been debated as to whether operators count as a project. And in many cases, the operators actually make something that's not cloud native cloud native. So maybe they should be considered as a project, but it's a bit of a gray line. Yeah, but that's something that we've talked about in the past. Katie, I see your comment and slack. That was something that we had talked about in the TOC tag offsite was defining the scope, the domains, tools that fall underneath of each of the tag categories. So it's still work that needs to be done probably moving forward through the net through into the new year.  Yeah, sorry, I was just writing in the name, but I mean, I think, yeah, I think we do consider the cloud native projects and appropriate and then SCAPE, but it's just we're not sure if they're sustainable as standalone projects as a, you know, kind of standalone thing. But I think from this point of view, the scope of the tag, they're very much in SCAPE and, you know, they're an important part of how people use things. It's just a moral question of viability as a project, as a standalone project that's been the issue rather than in SCAPE or out of SCAPE-ness. Other comments on this? Like the conversation has shifted a little bit into operators specifically. Matt? I'm not sure if now is the right time to talk about it, but as we're talking about how the landscape is divided into tags and subcategories and subcategories and whatnot, I've been doing some work with the landscape data and a lot of the reports that one might generate directly from it are somewhat potentially misleading depending on how the reports are generated. For example, open telemetry is represented in the metadata. We've recently recognized by a single project, the Java agent, Kubernetes is represented by just the Kubernetes repo, not all of the Kubernetes repos. So I've done some work to pull in data for each project for the entire org so that we can understand activity data and community activity. That's inclusive of not just the repo that's reported in the CNCF, but, you know, all the home parts and ancillary repos that are contained in the organization. So highlighting that from an initial look at just the observability sector, but I'm doing this for the other sectors because it's just a for loop with the same reports. You know, I think there might be a mismatch so anything that's aggregating stars for a project or number of commits, you know, it may or may not depending on if it's coming from DevStats or coming from ad hoc reports that use the landscape data directly as published without sort of adding an address. You know, we should shore that up to inform our discussions moving forward. That's the only thing I want to raise. And I'll have an update in a week or two. There's some work happening in my stuff in the landscape, Brad Freepo and in some notebooks, but those are my initial findings from the weekend. Okay. Thank you. I want to kind of circle back to tag scoping and subdomains. From tag leadership based off of what your current capacity is and your availability. Is this something that you all feel you can do before February? Having an initial draft of that scope and subdomain area for each of the tags. I think I saw head nods. I see. Yeah. Okay. Alex. It's not unreasonable in my opinion. Okay. That will certainly help lead into discussions. Yes, exactly for February 6th. Thank you. Matt. As a quick follow on, did we ever like formally settle or I assume it's still an open issue around whether we, we want to as, as I think keep the number of tags from growing. Too much so that we don't, you know, further divide resourcing, but have some way to. To indicate one projects or working groups or, or extremes or what, what have you are relevant to multiple tags. Is the, the new landscape to Jason. The right place to do that, which is sort of a super set of the older first version landscape data that we should be using some PRs to that repo, or as do we want to like work things out in other places and then move things more formally to get hub. Once there's consensus. I'm of the opinion we work things out outside of GitHub. And then once we have consensus, we codify it there. But I'm open to other opinions and feedback on it. Ideally, I'd like, like we have not set a cap on the amount of tags. I think it's always been where there's momentum and interest and alignment. That makes the most sense for having a tag there. That's how most of the tags initially got started. But we're seeing a lot more requests come in, which is why we've been pushing and staffing. Yes. Thank you, Josh, making sure that there are people available to serve in leadership positions to carry on that work. I think the other challenge that comes in is when we have some of these requests, we've been pushing them back into the working groups to try to make sure that they have the appropriate resources available for them to get started as a tag, to get started as a working group to get familiar with the reporting process, with the leadership, with doing deliverables, reporting, roadmap planning, those kinds of things. So what we've been pushing for in the TOC and any TOC member, please chime in and add additional color clarification and correction is to have a lot of these initiatives start as working groups sponsored by one or more tags. That dual sponsorship by a tag is something that's new and we're trying it out. We don't know if it works. I'm hoping it does. But from there, go ahead, Matt. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I said, we'll see what we have multiple instance of that that I'm excited to see. Yeah, exactly the same. But the next question is once those working groups have been executing and are working successfully through deliverables engaging with projects, things of that nature, what are the next steps to promote them to a tag if that's the route that we want to go or in some cases it may be that the activity dies off because it's only a limited time kind of sense of urgency on providing any kind of information guidance instruction to projects or adopters. How how is this currently working for you all that have multiple working groups. I know tag app delivery has a very large scope. They seem to have a new working group almost every couple of months for yet another thing that's showing up, which just shows the growing need in that ecosystem. So, Josh, I'll I'll hand it over to you for your question. There's definitely room. I mean, even looking at like the platforms paper where we listed out capability types, which I think actually spreads across all of the the tags. So it wouldn't be fair to say all of the capabilities in a platform should go into app deliverance. Literally our whole organization here. But we do have we did form the platforms group a couple years ago and the artifacts group about six months ago. Artifacts has been. It's been interesting to watch it grow. And it's it's getting to critical mass. This last one. So this has been a top. I just wanted to raise it so people are aware that the discussion is happening to Josh Berkes point. You know, it hasn't gone further mainly because of resource constraints in tag app delivery. And so I just wanted to surface it to the top. We talked about maybe opening an issue in the talk repo, but we haven't. So here's just me putting it up here. There was a group that came and presented to you all a few months ago about API enhancement proposals, essentially API standards and common patterns that folks could adopt. And they came back to us and we recommended they consider forming a working group and bringing in related projects that, you know, try to put some structure around APIs and, you know, establish some standards and synergies. They did propose that. That's number 448, which I linked here. But it's, it's kind of died in committee at this point, because we really, we weren't confident that we could support them within tag app delivery. Maybe we can. I'm not saying we absolutely can't. It's just where the conversation has been so far. I brought it up particularly now because API curio or API curio, however you want to read that just submitted themselves to sandbox. That's also why I asked about messaging because API curio is also a little bit associated with Kafka and stream Z because people store their Kafka schemas in there. Yeah, but I just wanted to, to bring this up. I don't know that I'm actually asking for anything, but just, just to let you know that there's been that conversation. Okay. Okay. Josh Burkus, I know you had your hand raised. Yeah. I mean, one sort of open question for the TOC here is, what happens with projects that don't fall current within any current tax code, right? Because like this is an example and actually the API thing is a good example because there isn't a clear working group for it in the app delivery because or networking, which would be the other place you could stick APIs because there aren't people to run that working group, but it is kind of a distinct area of functionality. And actually the, there's a couple of projects currently in the sandbox queue that are basically API management. Clearly within the domain of cloud native, but sort of what happens to those projects? Does the TOC pick up anything we don't have a tag for? Do we try to shoehorn them in somewhere where the tag's not really prepared to cover them? How do we handle those? In the past, from my experience, it's the shoehorning problem is we try to identify a primary tag that that project can align most closely with knowing full well that there is definitely overlap with others. But that's how we've done it previously. Other TOC members who have been on the talk for a long period of time. Have you seen this play out? Or is this a new challenge that we have to face? Justin? Yeah, I think, I mean, we, sometimes we try to allocate them to things, even if it's not a perfect match. Tag app delivery and things like that, like as a kind of fallback. But I think that, yeah, I think we sort of usually kind of either, because we haven't actually, a lot of the time we ended up without an official list of which projects were attached to which thing. I think we lost some of them, you know, and kind of forgot. And now we're trying to make them more formally attached again. We're having to do the work that we have, oh yeah, they don't fit again. So I think we need to, we need to come up with a list of ones we don't think fit and have a discussion about it and understand where they fit better. And look at what, where we put them in the landscape and where we've, where they might go and where, and maybe talk to the projects about where they feel they go and see if we need some new tags to go with them as well or, or maybe we've kind of attached them to working groups, but as a new model or something. That's also an option. It still runs into the staffing issue of making sure that there's leadership to be able to facilitate that engagement and discussion. But I recall us talking in the past about having projects select which tag they're home underneath of. How do the tags feel about this? You all are the one that are experiencing either the joys or the pains of that kind of alignment. Alex? I think if we're, I think a tag needs to be accountable for purposes of, you know, reviews and graduation processes and all of that kind of stuff. But I also think that we could have sort of a primary tag and maybe like secondary tags allocated where there isn't, where there is some overlap. Like for example, I think when Harbor went through graduation, we had a similar sort of thing where, you know, there was either runtime or app delivery or was owning it, but storage got involved because there were, there was a lot of replicated storage components to it. So I think, I think that kind of works too where we can kind of have some shared responsibility, but ultimately one tag should own it. Okay. So we've observed and discussed the problem space a lot. We have some recommendations, solutions. Is there anyone that's interested in actually putting together a proposal so that we can make progress on this? Are we talking about the proposal on how we allocate projects to tanks? Yep. I can give it a go and work with somebody else if other people are interested. I was saying I'm happy to contribute, but my plate's full to drive to drive it, you know, as a race C.A. However, some of the data that I've been working up for both the observability ecosystem as well as the whole CNC up, I think, as I said, could inform that and I'm happy to prep that and contribute. Yeah. I'd like to help from, you know, from the perspective of what goes into a platform. I'm kind of curious how how our landscape will kind of map to that. So yeah, I'd like to help out. All right. So Alex, I am seeing Ricardo, Matt, Josh Gavante, Leo in chat. Karina, Max, I see your comments on focusing on the surrounding topics, but not necessarily a specific domain. Maybe it would make sense to have a caretaker tag with corresponding working group for each domain. That's also an option I would recommend working with Alex to include some flavor or optionality of that within the proposal to move forward with. Sounds good. Do we want to try and set a date for this? Yeah. I think we can start with the January 6th piece out there. I was also going to suggest starting a discussion over in the TOC repo because that way we can track it and basically put this back on like the agenda for, yeah, that meeting on the 6th of February. I know it seems both very far away and very short. Yep. That'll also allow you to direct any of your community members of the tags over to that discussion if they have an opinion or also would like to do that. Good suggestion, Amy. Thank you. Alex, given that you're now the lead for this, do you have an ideal date in mind as February 6th? Good. Or is that a little too soon? It's a good date as any targets. All right. So folks that are interested in this discussion on alignment of projects with tags, primary, secondary check out the TOC discussions part of our repo. Alex is going to be initiating a conversation there and for those that are interested, do please chime in on that discussion topic there. Excellent. Other topics, concerns, questions, consideration, feedback. Anything else we want to talk about today? Tags and TOC members. We'll start with the tag chairs first. How do you think this went? Asynchronous updates, TOC comments, and then an actual discussion. I think it's great that we're having these discussions as opposed to not having them before. So this is a big step in the right direction. All right. Josh, go on to the mat. I saw you both come off mute. I just was going to say I was happy to be able to bubble these up and have the discussion. So thank you. It's a welcome change. Josh Berkus. I think we're going to stick to the asynchronous. We should use a format other than slideshow. Okay. What would you recommend? Either document or get a discussion. Amy, how do you feel about either a doc or a discussion on that? I was actually thinking something even worse. Email back into the TOC list talking about what you all are doing. That works too. I want to be able to have the widest amount of surface area for people to see what you're doing and how to get involved. We haven't yet gotten to the point where the discussions are taking off over on GitHub. I don't want it to go into a document and die. We can change things up as far as there's not a ton that's really visual about the slide deck. It's usually mostly text. Yeah. I guess the only thing I worry about email is it's harder to change it. For instance, when I update the tech network slides, I can tag my co-chairs if they comment and I don't know if they will have time to comment. At least I offer them an opportunity and window to comment. I guess we just don't have time in the last minute. That is a good thought. That leads me back over to being able to do a discussion and we can do a discussion and then kick off with here's your updates for we're not going to do one for January because at this point it's January 2nd. No one's back in yet. We're going to have a discussion for the February 6th conversation. Here's the tag updates and if we do that we should also drop the slides. I think the consensus is around dropping the slides. It's a matter of how do we want to send the information out. I will add here that I've learned and I've probably mentioned this a few times with folks that maintainers don't always check out what's going on in the mailing list. If we're trying to make maintainers more aware of the work that the tags are doing maybe sending messaging out on the mailing list for those updates would get more eyes on that work and potentially drive more interest of projects back into the tags for closer collaboration especially around things like APIs and their frameworks. What do folks feel about that? Then we can leave the TOC repo for the future. I like that. I'm thinking for the tag updates we can send out emails but for any issues associated with any tags I think either TOC an issue I think is also good we have issues to track those and then people can give different inputs and that's also tracked that's my that's my thought. Any issues that come up with the tags where you need your liaisons if it's pressing obviously reach out to them Slack, DM, email but other than that an issue on the TOC repo should be enough as long as you're tagging your liaisons so that we can see it. Katie you had a question can we have the updates in the form of a newsletter once a month? I was actually going to go in a different direction with that. Here's our agenda for tomorrow email that goes out just respond to that email with your updates when you are ready and if you don't come by and get your updates I will come find you that seems like a really low key way to be able to here's the updates here's what's going on and there's one place to be able to make a home for it. Thoughts and opinions? What kind of format is it the same format as the slides or you have to be determined? I mean it's an email what do you want to put in an email? Anything? I still have a place for people to collaborate on that before responding because there are multiple chairs so if I'm sending out email then I maybe won't get chance for other chairs to chime in so if we have like maybe a github star with a github issue or maybe put that on the github discussion somewhere and then reply with that link I just thought there should be like a draft in place for multiple beauty collaborate before that thing to be shared with the community. Yeah I think that's a good point I think you know you can coordinate between these the tech chairs maybe that can be through a slide or google doc or whatever people can give comments right and after you sort it out finalize that and then you can send out an email to either audience even in the email you can attach the slides So Katie and then Richie So the only reason I came up with the newsletter term is because I think it's very important for us to have consistency in updates so for example these are the things we've completed these are the things we're looking at like very similar to the slides because the more consistent we're going to share this information between the tags the easier it is to digest for other people and to understand where exactly to look at so I think this is where I think perhaps we need to decide on a format as well and kind of make it as consistent as possible in terms of the areas we would like to cover and to see updates from the tags So for the kubernetes weekly like last week in kubernetes development maybe we should I mean maybe let's not do it every week but maybe we should have a monthly if somebody just brings everything together similar I'm afraid to say that because am I volunteering for that so it's a great idea I think I don't I'm sorry no no no let's do this because like again we're changing a lot of things we've already just changed like the slide format use the slide format like respond back into the email with like how we've actually got like this this like kind of running together keep keep like the normal slide format of what we currently have then respond to the email when you're ready like each tag collaborates with themselves like the like Karina's suggestion about like each tag works through like the process in here work through the slide and then when you're ready go ahead and send it out and if by this meeting we're like this time of the meeting if I don't see your updates we might have questions here about like hey where are your updates what happened can we help that seems like a lightweight way to be able to move us forward into February not necessarily like it's not going to be always like this but let's just try it yeah so we're not necessarily changing the content of the updates we're just changing the mechanism in which they're being shared that way smaller tweaks iterating changes over time and then if that works and we like it and we're getting good feedback then we can look at adjusting the content to make it more seamless easy approachable for anybody on the mailing list does that work look at us being all agile I know alright somebody want to take a shot at doing that from today's deck I'll share it on tag chairs if I do okay anything else so it sounds like this went well let me recap what Ricardo's put in chat place each of the tags will figure out a place to collaborate amongst the tag leadership to consolidate content for those updates and then the updates once they're finalized amongst the tag chair they'll send out those updates on the TOC mailing list once Amy kicks off the here's what's coming tomorrow email sound about right? do you expect us to send it before the meeting of what's the timeline? yeah I do I expect like it's the same kind of thing where like the slides need to be done before we get into the meeting and then like yeah I do expect them to be able to be here before the meeting because then we can talk about like oh so I saw the thing like you know like and it leads on to like another conversation that's why yeah that's good for me to know because like I said you know my co-chair doesn't always respond so at least I know I'm just going to time it before the meeting while I send in case they respond totally fine oh you know what I mean yeah Matt yeah but I think Richie had his hand up before me and I don't know if it's still up or if I'm lagging did you? nah it's fine what I wanted to say is basically we said like have a doc for all the tag leaderships amongst the tags themselves and once they consider it final just send it and if it's not final just send a follow up and done like to be super processed heavier on this yep that's right I agree I wanted to respond briefly to your initial question about how this is gone today in my view briefly I really really enjoy having the unstructured time to both hear other people talk and how they form the things that are interesting to them and important and we also have a forum for things that don't quite belong without having to have a system for absolutely everything as an example of sort of a non-standard interesting thing that I wanted to surface here to be to get a 2 for 1 last week in the tag observability we had a community member come out and say hey I think accessibility is important and I'm an expert in that so here's some things that we should all know about accessibility as we're building as many observability analysis tools have complex UIs you know if the hypothesis is that if we can ensure that things in the CNCF that are in that sector at least are able to describe in what ways they are or might someday be accessible to people with various needs you know right now we don't really measure that but we have other tags that are already looking at guidelines for all projects right and so we can we can connect you know this person tagging through strategy to get advice on that so like that there's not really clear issue type I could make I could shoe hard one in but I really like having this sort of just all hands even if it's a cadence touch point where the things that don't belong in the odd ducks which are oftentimes it might be the more interesting things anyway can get some time yeah excellent feedback thank you and also good segue over to tag contributor strategies new work on the deaf of hard at hearing working group and improving accessibility for cloud native projects to definitely make that connection fabulous yeah the person and the person that came out and the videos posted I you can see it's a presentation but I think it's important and it might be the start of something like a working group this is coming out of what they saw a coupon and what a lot of people are talking about that effort so awesome awesome alright anything else I have a question I really have a question so I was looking at the discussion in the TOC in GitHub earlier today I think some there was an interesting question about how the tag can potentially work with the tab to get more user feedback for the particular area the tag are interested in so I'm curious how to pursue that as you all know I'm very new to tag as well so I'm interested to kind of revise the chat of our tag and as part of that I think getting the use of feedback will be critical as well right so I can answer some of that they just kicked off yesterday give them a hot minute like I think this is probably going to be a conversation for Q1 because my knowledge like their very first meeting was yesterday but if you have things that you are directly interested in like really specific things that you need feedback from that would be a great thing to be able to kind of share with us and we can kind of start working out how that gets over to the end user tab Ricardo Dave and Katie I believe you all are our tab reps come on in I'm not a rep but we did I'm in the tab but in first meeting yesterday so as Amy said the effort will really start Q1 but any feedback feel free to send directly to one of us or there is also a Slack channel for the end user tab that you can post there so I think for right now I would recommend folks posting in the end user tab Slack channel that way all of the tab could potentially see it I think it's better and then that way at least gets it on the tab radar to understand like these are active requests from tags to the tab to provide feedback in that mechanism and hopefully they can have something put together before the end of Q1 I think the tab Slack channel if you post it there Ricardo it will help people can join also the tab meetings I think the tab chairs at least can join there to discuss I think that's a great question to link the how we can link the tab with the tags right when it's an user feedback of 10 points and the other is the tags that could provide solutions to solve them or could solicit any projects to coordinate and to solve those 10 points so I think it would be good I think the tab is open for people to join the meeting is it open I thought it's only for end user but I could be wrong I can check in a bit I'm in the car now so I can post I can drop in the Slack channel it's hashtag TAB is the channel where that's at I don't have the details on the meetings but it's definitely worth question in that channel to just verify from the source thanks anything else Matt sorry does anybody know I had a couple of things in addition that I was just reminded of out of the discussion around the potential for should this be a working group or how might accessibility in general not just for vision impaired mobility impairment grossing there's a variety of types of accessibility the discussion came up what makes a good working group and I know we have formalized criteria but one interesting thing I thought that came out of that was the notion that as tags are worth these three demographics sort of come together and at points overlap their intention is to pitch the working group as something that can produce artifacts or outcomes that speak with the same information and audiences in audience specific ways so if you're a consumer looking to shop for cloud native stuff in the sense you have to use in your organization you might want to know what should I look for when assessing accessibility since I sell to government or education large enterprises things like that that have requirements around this if I'm a project maintainer what do I need to know so I could jumpstart things the right way and not have to reinvent how to do what is an easy forward but fairly elaborate set of things to get certified or to at least understand where your gaps are and set yourself up for success and then from similarly for the third group so I was curious if anybody else had criteria for what can be a working group what other things like that might make sense to have as either aspirational or optional guidance to those that want to draft and create new working groups or other ways to make it as broadly applicable to the targeted audiences or tags what do you think any question I don't think anyone was expecting that question I wasn't expecting to ask you I'll put it as food for thought and I'll see you guys on Slack but stuff to think about for the holidays I think accessibility like like Catherine have launched is an opportunity for the sense you have to differentiate itself because commercial software is oftentimes way further behind and unable to address things because we're building these so fast we can build them right the right way yeah Josh Govant you came off mute I was just noting that the parallel what you said earlier Emily that we want tags to take responsibility for those working groups early on and then delegate them help them get started bootstrap them it sounds like something that's worth collecting some of those successes with working groups and placing that in the tag resources area since I know that we likely to have more working groups in the future underneath of tags and it would be beneficial for the next group to understand what expectations are how to get started bootstrapping a lot of that staffing expectations associated with those leadership positions so if you do have some of that information I know Catherine Paganini you've had a lot of success with working groups within tag contributor strategy I know your insights would be valuable there I know that there's a few other tags that have great working groups as well let's move the discussion over onto the TOC discussions in our repo Matt if you would post it yes I can I can capture that I'm doing a bunch of updates like three or four to the discussions board following between re-event Kubecon and life thank you awesome if anyone is interested we can collaborate on the initial docs Catherine said that she is happy to assist excellent alright so I think this was good we got a lot of good feedback we got some changes and some recommendations not too terrible next meeting like I said is the TOC sandbox reviews so tags if you have a chance please take a look at them provide a comment around the project in the context of the CNCF whether or not you would recommend it if there's more work that needs to be done something along those lines it just helps the TOC make those decisions also annual reviews are extended through January 1st I believe yep so if you have any questions on annual reviews reach out to your TOC liaisons and I think that's about it so don't talk to you all before the end of the year have a lovely end of year and enjoy your holidays please take some vacations and time off including from open source and CNCF slack I think we all kind of deserve a break this year we've gotten a lot done but there's a lot more to come in 2024 thanks so much everyone enjoy the rest of your day thank you bye bye


Well, I have time to speak today about something I know a lot about and that's the I was there Message I want to share with you about what we've seen and roughly the last 40 years in the world of apologetics I was thinking last night how many of these events I have spoken at and although I don't know exactly the number I think it's 22 23 times the very first Defending the faith conference I attended and spoke at was in 1990 in this building wasn't even here We spoke down in the JC William Center And it was all about the occult and new age and I don't remember now what I spoke about but as I was thinking the difference between even 1990 and 2023 the things that concerned us then are not typically the things that concern us now and Many of the things that concerned us now. We're not even things people Could conceive of and I'll talk about a few of those things as well In fact, I mentioned a deacon Harold before I came up here How grateful I was that he talked about some of these big picture issues Like in vitro and other issues that I'll talk about because it helps introduce some of the Things that I have seen along the way that I want to share with you Now I was raised Catholic just a few things about my own background to give you a sense. I was raised Catholic I'm oldest of eight children And I remember even when I was growing up that there was something different about my family and that is that we We we lived the faith in our home and my parents without really saying it to us They showed us that being Catholic being a follower of Jesus Christ Involved all aspects of life and even though I didn't live up to that You know from time to time in my life as most of us tend to wander here and there it certainly helped me Maintain a clear identity that I belong to the Lord. I'm a follower of Jesus. I am a loyal son of the church And as I look back on it now, I see how unusual that was I'll give you another example of what I mean here all these years later Not a single one of my siblings ever left the Catholic Church all of them remain Catholic Church going Catholic and I don't say that To to brag about my parents although I am very proud of them for doing what they did But they did something that got lost in Translation for many other people and I've spent most of my life trying to figure out. What was it that they did? how did they do this in a way that so many other families were not as fortunate and Chances are there's some pain even in your own family of family members who have left the church No longer pray no longer believe in God things of that nature When I was in high school, I think I knew of an atheist But I didn't know who he or she was I'd never met him and I never really thought of atheism as a thing It never occurred to me that there would be whole groups of people who just don't believe in God anymore And of course look at how much time how things have changed in that period of time When my mom and dad were growing up the world was different so my parents went to sock hops in the 50s they got married in 1958 and Their world was different in so many respects from the world that I grew up in in the 1960s and into the 70s And it wasn't just in terms of the social upheaval that took place in the 1960s We know all about the assassinations John F. Kennedy Robert F. Kennedy Martin Luther King Jr. The race riots the Cold War the anti-war movement the drug revolution the proliferation of mass media and many other things besides that were like continuous earthquakes in society and In the middle of those upheavals the Catholic Church held the Second Vatican Council From 61 to 65 and In certain respects that too was a kind of upheaval and it was something that caught a lot of Catholics off guard Those of you old enough to remember those days as adults you have a clear memory of mine But I do remember some of that as a child and being a little bit perplexed and confused as to why things were changing But I just went with the flow. I just not in the sense that deacon Harold said of course I don't mean in that sense But I was going along with what I saw around me But it occurred to me over time that my parents generation and their generation they learned the faith they learned about Jesus They learned about what it means to Follow Jesus in a way that I didn't really get and it wasn't my parents fault And it was through osmosis the way they received it because the world was relatively intact Relatively calm it doesn't mean that there weren't many terrible problems there were But there weren't so many social shocks to the system There weren't so many things going on all at once that created such upheaval and confusion So the same was true in the church You could go from one parish to the next parish to the next parish and you would see the same mass Celebrated the same way Maybe the preaching might be a little better at one parish versus another But you it was more or less the same everywhere you went there was a kind of continuity Among the Catholic faithful and parishes in those days And so you had a better chance and many people did absorb the faith By osmosis you just sort of Internalized it it became part of you became part of your identity By the time our generation for those of you who are in my age group by the time our generation came around You couldn't really do that anymore Because there was so much upheaval and so many conflicting voices and things that were going on So we didn't learn our generation didn't learn the Catholic faith in the same way and a lot It was lost in the translation. I Was very fortunate. I went to grammar school at the mission San Juan Capistrano in Southern, California Those of you who are from Orange County. I'm sure you know it. Well Beautiful old mission where St. Juniper O'Sara celebrated mass in the 1700s And I had the privilege and and really the great good fortune of Serving at the 7 a.m. Traditional Latin Mass every weekday before I would start classes My mom would bring me to school early and I was at the Latin Mass as an altar boy And then on Sundays at our parish. I was in What I have come fondly to refer to as a kind of happy-clappy kind of parish where it was anything But well, I had a mass in the morning utterly opposite of that and Yet I grew up with a sense of well This is still the mass the mass is the mass and people might prefer one version or another But it helped to deepen in my mind an appreciation for the mass as such Regardless of what the trappings and the aesthetics might be it was helpful to me But I noticed as I got older That many of my peers were falling away. I went to my eighth grade Class reunion and I don't remember how long ago it was now 10 years ago. Maybe more than that Well, that wasn't the eighth grade year reunion, but it was about 10 years ago that I went to the reunion and and I think eighth grade was you know 40 years in the past at that point. I Was the only Catholic there. It was a Catholic school all of the people most all the people who were there a couple had Passed away, but of our class of about 30 people. Maybe 2728 attended this class reunion. I was the only Catholic Everybody else at least to my memory. I don't remember Here maybe oh no, I take about there was one other girl then a woman now who remained Catholic And very devoutly so I do remember her but everybody else fell away and they had the same education I had they went to mass where I went to mass They had the same Baltimore catechism they had all those same things and yet it didn't stick for them And I don't entirely know why but I do think going back to what my parents did is that they didn't have a chance to Live as a Catholic a follower of Jesus as if it were their identity, which it should be for all of us so now we have my generation growing up having children and Across the board there is less to give to the next generation because our generation my generation Didn't receive as much. I think you follow my logic here, right and then my children's children generation We have now 28 grandchildren. So the oldest of whom is now married. I cannot believe that it's just Impossible to imagine but soon enough. I'll be a great grandfather. I don't know how that happened, but Even less now it seems is able to be passed on so I'm setting the stage here Because I don't want to depress you, but I want to say here is the situation that we find ourselves in what do we do about it? What's the hope and encouragement in the middle of all this? so back in 1983 I was married. I had a couple of kids I'm still married and as you know, we have 11 kids Nancy and I My hair then was entirely dark So I've learned a lot over the years about human physiology In fact, I've learned to appreciate Proverbs 20 verse 29 quite a bit It reads the glory of young men is their strength, but the beauty of old men is their gray hair The world was different then when I met Scott Hahn for the first time in 1989 Yeah, it was 89 The delivery system to get his talks into the hands of people. I'm sure you remember it the good old cassette tape Thankfully we weren't handing out big clunky eight track tapes. You know here's a Scott on eight track tape We had moved beyond that but it was you know the millions upon millions of cassette tapes that were in circulation there And it was a good sturdy delivery system, but that was about all we had there were no websites There were no means of distribution on apps or anything like that all the things that we take for granted today in terms of technology We have so many options now to share and spread the faith and I'll return to this theme in a few minutes I'd like to share some suggestions on how you can bring some hope and encouragement into the lives of people who may be Floundering people, you know who have lost their way, or they no longer believe in God I've got some things that I've learned along the way that work very well Of course in those days the internet didn't exist So whereas today on my radio program if somebody calls in needing a particular kind of Article or a tract maybe or something that could be available to them Instantaneously I can now refer them to the Catholic Answers website Catholic comm and say here's where you can instantly download this or you can Print it out and send it to your friend. We didn't have those opportunities in those days There were no apologetics conferences in 1983, which is just a few years before I began my work at Catholic Answers I didn't begin my work there until early 1988 But in those days there was there were virtually no books that were apologetical in nature I recall when I was growing up the summer between my junior and senior year of high school I was going out with this lovely girl who happened to be from a very staunchly Protestant family and they were very nice to me they would come I would come to her house and they would feed me and There's a swimming pool that was nice But there was also her father who was very adamantly concerned about my salvation and he told me right up front He said, you know no offense or anything, but you're not a Christian and I said of course. I'm a Christian I'm a Catholic. He said that's the problem Catholics aren't Christian and I said well, what are you talking about and in over the course of the next month or so every time I would go to her house her father Made it his business to to try to take me out of the Catholic Church And he was raising a lot of different arguments I had never heard before and I had never read any apologetics books that I that I could go to So thankfully my mom and dad had some apologetics books in their in their library But they were old books from like the 1920s and before that One that really helped me that summer was radio replies It's a three-volume book written by two priests one in Minneapolis and one in Australia and they would receive challenging Eat or not they were not emails They were challenging letters that were written Challenging some aspect of the Catholic faith and they would read the challenge on the air and then respond to it And then all of those responses were compiled into these three volumes known as radio replies Well, I would come home and tell my father about the challenges I was getting from this girl's father and he said oh no problem And he would pull books down off the shelf and he would say the answer to that question is in this book He didn't tell me where it was in the book I had to find it for myself But it was a great benefit to me that those kinds of materials were available, but they were very few of them There were no conferences like this. There were no Huge amounts of books that had been written as they have been now So it was like in inventing the wheel all over again when I was working at Catholic Answers in their early 1988 Because we didn't have much of anything to do. We had to produce it as we went along And I thank God to this very day that one of the biggest things that came out of the Catholic Answers in the broader Catholic apologetics world at that time was Scott's conversion testimony How many of you have actually heard or watched on YouTube Scott Hans conversion testimony? I'm glad to see that most of you have but for those of you who haven't You need to listen to this and it's available on YouTube because it was electrifying It was unbelievable that this this very articulate knowledgeable Protestant minister had become Catholic first of all that in itself was such a great surprise But also the way in which he very calmly explained his reasons for becoming Catholic in the space of one hour It revolutionized the minds and the hearts of countless Catholics I know because I was one of them and I saw how this began to grow and gain momentum And this is one of those things that was so so strikingly different than compared to now and that is In those days the number one problem that most Catholics seem to have at least those that would Write into us at Catholic Answers or attend an event or something was the biblical case for the Catholic Church That was the burning issue and some of you here remember that I'm sure How do I talk to my brother-in-law who thinks that we worship Mary? Or how do I explain the Eucharist or purgatory or how do I talk about the papacy or what about the Mary and doctrines like Mary's perpetual virginity or her immaculate conception it was palpable how Excited and happy my fellow Catholic brothers and sisters were when they suddenly now started getting Materials on cassette tape tracks the books that began to be written Scott and Kimberley's Rome Sweet Home, which was their first book explaining in book form their conversion the surprise by truth phenomenon it Was it was like water in a hot desert people were so thirsty for it and so We were very busy Providing writing preparing these materials so that the Catholics who needed to know how do I explain my faith? Biblically, how do I how do I demonstrate that? Constantine was not the one who started the Catholic Church in the early 4th century things of that nature How do we disprove the notion that the Catholic Church in the mass and the Eucharist and so many Central things about the Catholic Church are just simply holdovers from paganism How do we demonstrate that Well, it was being done in places like Catholic Answers at that time in other places as well That was Catholic answers just happen to be one of the ones and I was associated with them So we were very often invited to do debates And it was always on the Catholic Protestant thing and people would turn out in droves It was amazing. I remember one time the founder of Catholic answers Carl Keating he was challenged to do a debate with a Protestant sect from the Philippines and it was to be held at a large high school and when we got there It was like an hour before the debate was to start There were already over 2,000 people waiting in in the gymnasium for this and by the time the debate started There were over 3,500 people there because they wanted to see a debate on the Bible between a Catholic and The representative of this group. It was astonishing so debates were very popular and As time wore on I began to discern that this challenge that the Catholic Church at least in the United States this challenge that the church was experiencing and the the need for good solid biblical and historical answers was being met and Met not just adequately but being met abundantly to the point where I Wondered in the 90s maybe the late 90s I began to wonder if maybe had it run its course Had it served its purpose and now like all things eventually Maybe this will fade away and I was pleased to see that not only did it not fade away Catholic apologetics But it got stronger and it had to go into new territory because the next big thing that was coming that I didn't see I don't think any of us saw it at the time. I didn't see it in the 80s But the next big thing was atheism and The huge challenge that the new atheists began to present to believers in the form of their books Richard Dawkins book the God delusion Sam Harris Daniel Dennett Christopher Hitchens They came on in force and they seem to be everywhere They were doing YouTube videos. They had websites blogs books. You name it They were doing it. So I thank God that the apologetics movement that I saw sort of rise spontaneously from nothing or so it seemed in the the mid to late 1980s Now we had something there and people were not only able to get material and resources from these apologetics Organizations, but they had by that point learned to some extent how to do apologetics They had learned that one should do apologetics if called upon And as you know, St. Peter said always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you But do it with gentleness and respect So it's not just what you say in response to a question or a challenge It's just as important if not more so how you say it One of the things I've noticed on my radio program I'm on from 9 to noon Eastern on relevant radio And if you don't have a relevant radio station near where you live You can always download the relevant radio app and lend listen at your leisure But one of the things that I've noticed over the years and this is to me is another one of those changes in the in the issues And how we responded to those issues in the early to mid 1980s versus now is How I've got how I go about apologetics in those early days I will confess to you that I was I Was aggressive or at least I could be aggressive especially in debate mode because there was a certain kind of you know Cage fighter mentality or combat mentality and it shouldn't be that way But you can't help but play to the audience at times At least that was a failure that I detect now as I look back on some of my own Efforts in that regard not that the material was necessarily a problem But when you present it in an aggressive way an adversarial way It might be pleasing to the people in the audience who are there to root for your team But it doesn't have as much effect as it would and does when you adopt a more Serene and and reasonable approach I don't want to give you the misimpression that I was you know constantly Aggressive or anything like that, but the tone I could see now could have been a little less edged So one of the things I noticed on the radio program is how many people they write in emails or they'll call into the program I don't have guests. I don't do interviews. It's just commentary for three hours and talking to you If you call me on the phone We talk on the phone and it's amazing to me as I consider the changes that have taken place in the last 40 years or so How true it is that people respond to as Deacon Harold was saying and as Kimberly was saying after Deacon Harold's talk to speak the truth in love To present the truths of the faith in a way that is not combative Not adversarial and people love that so much so That they're willing to listen to it and even if they don't believe in it if they don't even necessarily agree with it They're at least listening and thinking about I got an email last night In my hotel room and it was from an agnostic who says, you know I'm an agnostic but I listen to your program every day And he said one of the things that I really appreciate about these kinds of programs is that you present the material even though I don't agree with it. You present it in a way that is reasonable So that's for me personally at least one of those lessons that I've learned over the years from the mid 1980s until now We see now in the ways that the world has changed things like the internet things like technology So we have apps we have websites we have ways of delivering this information that we didn't have before One thing that I met with all the time is the anguished parent who says my son no longer believes in God And what do I do? What do I tell him? How do I convince him to believe in God? And I don't have the answer for that. I wish I did I'd share it with all of you And we could all go out and bring everybody back to their faith in God But one thing I do know that really does work and that is I suggest go to the the YouTube channel for the The Thomistic Institute which is an enterprise by the Dominican friars of the eastern province and They produce Aquinas 101 videos which are typically about seven eight minutes long And they take a specific topic like why should I believe in God or things of that nature and they break it down There's some illustration that's very well done and my advice to parents This is my advice to you is to grab the link to this video and just text it to your son or daughter Or friend or family member the person that you would like to see Helped in the area that they need help in because everybody is looking at their phones anyway And if you text a link to somebody that's got YouTube on it, you know, they're gonna click it You know, they're going to watch it and if the video is short and sweet as these ones tend to be The likelihood of them watching it is quite high St. Francis de Sales back in the the 1600s He used the social media and the modern technology of his day which in those days was known as the printing press and one of the things that made him so effective in his effort to Re-evangelize the Calvinist folk of the area around Geneva where he had been Given the care of that area as a priest first and then eventually as a bishop what he did was he would compose Responses to the kinds of arguments that were being raised Especially by Calvinist folk he would compose the Catholic response with the Bible verses and all that and then he made use of the printing press to print up hundreds or even thousands of little leaflets that had the responses and then he would quietly go door-to-door with his helpers and they would put these leaflets under the door so that in the morning when The family got up to get going they would find this little Catholic tract under their door and they would read it and Lo and behold by the time St. Francis de Sales died It's estimated that he had converted back to the Catholic faith over 60,000 Calvinist people who had a deep antipathy because they were taught to have a deep antipathy To the Catholic Church and he won them over With the truth because he presented it to them in a very non-threatening non-confrontational way That's one of the beauties of the modern technology that we have nowadays Technology is also a resource for us when it comes to explaining and sharing the faith I'm thinking about many different breakthroughs. I was talking with Jeff Kavens at dinner last night His wife Emily is and has I guess for many years gone to Israel and done Archaeological digs. I understand she's getting her PhD in biblical archaeology very impressive and He I asked him about a story. I had read in a scientific journal Maybe two three years ago and he knew all about this and that was that scientists have discovered recently That there was something that came from the sky a couple thousand three thousand years ago that obliterated What they discovered were the remains of a couple of cities just north of the Dead Sea Where the Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah once stood and With the scientific tools that we have now they're being able to discover wait a minute Something happened here that turned the sand to glass Because it was so hot and I see in those kinds of scientific explanations Not approved necessarily of the things that the Bible says But at least it's solid evidence that tends to corroborate the things that the Bible says and more and more now We're seeing discoveries that are corroborating these things. There was a long time that went by when many scholars just assumed that Pontius Pilate didn't exist and In recent years they have discovered now certain artifacts one in Caesarea Mamertime on on the coast and the other one I'm forgetting where the other one is but They have the inscript. Oh, it was a ring. That's what it was. It was a ring bearing the inscription Pontius Pilate So little by little in terms of scientific discovery a lot of the things that earlier had been questioned are now being corroborated DNA Sticks out in my mind is one of the really big things now Perhaps some of you here are scientists or physicians and you know far more about DNA than I ever will But I've read and learned enough about it to understand that this is a tremendous tool When it comes to helping our current generation who no longer believes in God to reconsider this and to Try to explain try to account for what DNA DNA is and what it does There's a book if you care to read a book-length treatment of this It's called signature in the cell by Steven Meyer And he has his PhD in the philosophy of science from Cambridge University It's a thick book, but it's very informative and I benefited from it greatly and to summarize the takeaway that I have from this book It's simply that DNA stores information It transmits information It reads information and then it executes the information in terms of what are the What are the commands that this information is giving very much like computer software and This DNA issue is something that we didn't have All that long ago. In fact, it was in the most primitive of stages as I understand it in the early 1980s so it didn't occur to me or to anyone that I knew in those days to Assert the DNA example as an evidence for the existence of God or at least pointing to the existence of God because how do you get information? If it's just random blind forces of nature working endlessly and in an undirected manner on each other over eons of time how on earth could that produce for example an iPhone if if eons of time went by when natural substances and amino acids and lightning strikes and a dinosaur steps on it and more erosion and wind and rain eventually no matter how much time went by you could never come up with an iPhone and human DNA or for that matter DNA in general is seems to me at least far more sophisticated and far more meticulously designed for the purpose of growing limbs and eyes and ears and doing all the things that the body does the human genome project only began in 1990 and It's described as an international scientific research project with the goal of determining the base pairs that make up human DNA So the more we go into this brave new world with all of its many challenges that didn't exist in the in the time Where everybody wanted to know how do I prove the Eucharist from the Bible? We now have by God's providence. I do believe new resources and tools to be able to help us in this area Some of the new challenges that we face. I Mentioned atheism a moment ago. I knew of an atheist when I was in high school. I didn't know any now It's hard not to trip over an atheist You know you walk ten feet you're gonna trip over an atheist because so many people now Have decided that they no longer believe in God And I believe that they're one of the key reasons for that is they never have heard the case for the existence of God They just don't know and maybe they stumble upon a book by Richard Dawkins or they see a video on YouTube And they are convinced by that We have a role to play in being able to give an answer to the reason for the hope that is in us when it comes to why we believe in God and Thankfully there are many many many resources now It's just like reaching down and picking up handfuls of diamonds and and and gold coins It's all right there waiting for us. We just have to pick it up and make use of it We didn't have those things in the early to mid 1980s. I'm so grateful. We do now we're dealing with the the age-old Problem of sexual rebellion but on a much grander scale now and it's celebrated in a way that never used to be Celebrated before this ties in not only with heterosexual Hedonism and the television programs and the movies and all the other ways in which this is glorified But it ties in certainly with the LGBTQ plus movement. I don't want to leave the plus off I'm not sure what it stands for but I want to make sure to leave it on there because as Time goes by more categories are added to this But this is an ideology that is is a steamroller and you know it as well as I do it has steamrolled its way through Academia it's at all levels of the school systems up to and including the the colleges and universities It's riddled throughout the government in many ways I never thought I would ever live to see the day when a gay pride flag was hanging in front of US embassies around the world next to the American flag But we're seeing that kind of thing now. We're seeing the way in which this ideology and other ideologies associated with it Are invading and colonizing and proliferating so we have to stand up against that Not in an angry way not in a defensive way But we have to speak the truth in love But the thing is is Kimberly said if we don't speak the truth they won't hear the truth so your role as a housewife a Grandma a Worker butcher Baker candlestick maker whatever it is you do and whatever age you may be You have a role to play in this it could be as simple as texting that link to a great YouTube video or The Patrick Madrid show or the Scott Han testimony talk on YouTube Don't hesitate to broadcast these seeds of truth Even if you say as many people I think find themselves saying I don't feel like I could say that I don't feel like I could explain this, but I know somebody who can Don't hesitate to broadcast these seeds of truth these seeds of encouragement Because you'd be surprised how many people out there are not even Aware of how close they are to embracing the truth if they could only find it somewhere family problems divorce in vitro fertilization These are all things that just Family problems existed in 1983. That's for sure divorce existed in 1983, but new birth technologies like in vitro fertilization Barely on the horizon medically speaking, but you didn't you didn't see this as a phenomenon Taking place. So how do we respond to things like that? Well Deacon Harold did a great job of explaining The fun the fundamentals of the purpose of procreation. I learned something with his use of the word matrimony I was not aware of that and these are little details that you can sprinkle into your conversations that can be very effective How about UFOs and aliens? That's a whole new thing now now there were UFOs reported back in those days But now you've got the federal government. You've got the armed forces publicly acknowledging. Yes, we have Evidence of UFOs and perhaps there are even bodies of aliens I was talking in the cafeteria in the lobby of the hotel yesterday evening with four ladies from Canada I believe and they were asking about aliens I said well, I'm gonna talk a little bit about that on my program not my program Well, this is kind of like a live program here. I guess but I said I'm gonna talk a little bit about that in my talk tomorrow morning And here's a little bit that I wanted to say about that. There is a real Concern Among a lot of people nowadays and all you have to do is look at the news aggregating websites or read some of the the main news Outlets on Twitter, etc. And you'll see that it's nearly a daily story now aliens aliens UFOs aliens Is there life out there? Are we are we communicating with somebody? Are they here? Have they crashed these kinds of things? This is a whole new challenge that we didn't have to deal with before at least not in quite the same way We're dealing with it now Because the government is saying that this is the case people are coming out and saying yes This is really a phenomenon. So it will happen Someday you're gonna turn on the television or you're gonna open up your browser and look at your favorite news station You're going to see a story That's going to say we have made contact with aliens. I'm certain of this I don't know when it'll happen, but I suspect it'll be sooner rather than later Don't let that shake your faith I'm not predicting that there are aliens out there. I'm just predicting that there will be a claim That will be made that there are aliens and it could be something as simple as a Microorganism found in the soil on Mars. Maybe it's something like that, but even that has the potential if Left unattended to shake the faith of people who will say oh well then I guess all bets are off then how can God exist if There's alien life And what about Jesus in the gospel and what about Jesus dying on the cross for our salvation? How does it fit with them? Some thinkers anticipated this 60 70 years ago CS Lewis did for example He wrote a trilogy of books that hide his strength out of the silent planet in Peralandra these were novels that he wrote anticipating what if we were to discover that there were races of creatures in the universe Who were intelligent like we are and in one scenario? They were unfallen like a whole race of unfallen Creatures like Adam and Eve would have been unfallen before their fall So it's not as though this is not a topic that hasn't been thought about before But the potential for people to lose their faith if somebody says we have discovered in an intelligent alien Or we have a spacecraft or something like that It should not shake your faith in the slightest even if it turns out to be true and I have my serious doubts personally I doubt but even if it turned out to be true because why because Jesus is the Lord of the universe and Everything in the universe whatever it may be everything. We're told in the epistle to the Hebrews and in John chapter 1 everything that exists came into existence through Jesus Through the second person of the Trinity So there's nothing in the universe that should shake your faith or anyone's faith if they believe in God Because all of this comes from God Now I recognize that there is a controversy here that there's no time for me to delve into but there's a controversy between those Who claim that so-called UFO activity is actually demonic activity and I've reviewed the arguments and Sifted through the case that's made for for this way of explaining it The other possibility is I suppose would be that these are in fact actual creatures that they're not demonic But in any case if it should happen that the current Concern about UFOs reaches a boiling point because there's a claim that there's UFO You should not bat an eye Because it would mean then that if these are creatures who have an intellect and a will Then they would need to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ And the church would continue its business day in and day out as it does now The Steubenville conferences would continue Might even invite some aliens, you know What's it like? You know becoming Catholic when you came to earth, you know, it's one thing to be to Come a Catholic. It's another thing to come to earth to become a Catholic and We need to send a We should start beaming Scott Hans conversion testimony out into the universe non-stop just to prepare them so There are these challenges and and I could go on at at length talking about the changes that of that I've seen since the mid 1980s until now, but I would like to kind of conclude my remarks with something That is equally as true and that is the more things change the more things stay the same Human beings are the same today as they were 500 years ago at the Protestant Reformation as they were a thousand years ago 10,000 years ago human beings don't change our circumstances change our knowledge of the world around us Grows that's true, but human beings as such are the same and we respond to the same challenges the same Temptations the same doubts the same grace that God gives us The same being drawn by the father that Jesus speaks about those things don't change So I'd like to get just slightly counterintuitive in the remaining couple of minutes that I have and propose to you a Kind of meta solution to all these problems, whatever they may be We've seen them from the biblical issues to scientific issues atheism and the various permutations of that But since human beings are the same and we operate in the same way and we also have the same goal Which is union with God forever in happiness in heaven. That's our goal. That's what we're made for That's our purpose in life Or as the Baltimore catechism says in response to the question Why did God make me God made me to know him love him and serve him in this life So that I may be happy with him in the life to come amen. Is that true? Yeah So here's a little counterintuitive advice Talk about what Jesus talked about Talk about the four last things have death judgment heaven in hell Hebrews 927 says it's appointed to a man to die once and then the judgment So we're all gonna have an exit interview sooner or later You are going to have your exit interview and the Lord is going to have a lot of things to talk with you about I would prefer fewer bullet points on his clipboard than more honestly So I really want to live my life in a way that reduces the number of bullet points that we need to talk about in my exit interview But sooner or later it's going to happen. We all have to contend with the reality of death and the afterlife So especially in a time of great lack of faith people who deny the existence of God my advice And I've seen this work is talk about what Jesus talked about and you know what Jesus talked about more than anything else Was the danger of going to hell he talks more about that then Going to heaven which of course is why he came to save us for God So loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever would believe in him should not perish but have eternal life That's the essence of the gospel in a nutshell you could say and Jesus is promising us eternal life But he's warning us at every turn about the dangers that can prevent us from receiving eternal life lack of faith lack of repentance lack of compassion lack of forgiveness We could go down the list. So as you read through the Gospels, maybe re-read them with an eye toward how can what Jesus said Help you help other people. I really believe that if you Talk to them at least to some extent about well, what are you expecting to happen after this life is over? On your deathbed are you gonna say man? I wish I had played more video games or if only I had seen more TV shows No one's gonna say things like that So let's help them avoid the inevitable regrets that will happen by helping them to see the Jesus has a plan for you and he wants you to be happy He wants you to be happy with him forever in heaven and the alternative leads to slavery and death ultimately leads to hell and So speaking of hell, I'll share with you This little technique that I have found to be very effective some years ago a Long time ago in fact one of my sisters was living a very wayward life She was a young adult living a very very wayward life. She hadn't lived the Catholic Church, but she had just sort of Put God aside for a time and I was concerned about her But I couldn't figure out how to approach her With some encouragement to come you know come back to God So I had the bright idea that I would give her a copy of a book published by 10 books called the dogma of hell And it's a red garish cover. It's got a scary picture of the devil on the front cover very sinister And I thought well, I'd like to give her this book because it's all about what did Jesus say about hell It's primarily scriptural passages and mainly Jesus talking about hell And I thought well, I can't give her that because she'll be offended So I had a bright idea and I bought like 15 copies and I gave one copy on the dogma of hell to all of the adults in my family one Christmas morning and we were Picture the scene We were gathered around the Christmas tree and Nancy and I we had our kids and my mom and dad and my brothers and sisters including that sister and I said hey guys, I have a gift for all of you Would you just open it all at once please and they said sure so they're we're unwrapping the festive paper and The dogma of hell seriously you're giving me a Christmas present on the dogma of hell So I was sheepish about it kind of turned into a bit of a joke my sister knew what I was doing and About a few months later. She told me it could maybe six months later. She told me she said when I opened that She said I knew that you were giving the book to me and to no one else And I was really irritated and I was offended that you would do this how dare you give me a book on hell and I said well honestly I Was thinking that if you're going to go there you might as well know what it's going to be like before you get there. I Really said that to her But she had already read the book by then and she thanked me. She said it scared her straight She said I was reading this book and I was seeing what did Jesus say About hell and she said it changed her it converted her She hadn't left the church, but she had walked away from God And so she gave me a big hug and she said thank you because that might have been the only thing that could have gotten through to me So I told that story on the radio program Which is on from 9 to noon Eastern on relevant radio Get the relevant radio app. I told that story many times And I'll share one final story with you pertaining to that and this is a solution. Try it I have done it many times and it tends to work. I Don't know if they have a copy of the book in the bookstore, but you can get it readily online. It's called the dogma of hell It's a little book. It won't take you much time to read it so I got a phone call from a young woman a couple of years ago and She said I was you know, I was raised Catholic. I left the church I was living a kind of a party hedonistic lifestyle and My brother kept bugging me to listen to your program. He just kept badgering me listen to the program Listen to the program. I didn't want to listen to the program. I wasn't interested in God She said and she said one day she said I'll get him off my back. So she tuned in What was I talking about this little book on hell? She said she was so non-plus like what? But something about the story that I told you about my sister peaked her interest enough that she opened up the Amazon app on her phone and she ordered a copy and Now she starts to cry a little bit as she's telling me this on the radio. She said the book came the next day She sat down. She read it. She had a profound conversion She went to confession. She came back to the sacrament. She thanked her brother She called to thank me and she said it was all because of this this Reminder that in due time this life will end. What's next? Where are you heading after this now?  I'm just saying give you know give them a book on hell Even something like that can be useful in helping that person come home. Thank you so much and God bless you


Inside this little tiny case from TH3D is a huge upgrade. I'm gonna show you how to install it on your bamboo lab printer and it's gonna change everything. My name's Jim and this is The Edge of Tech. That's right, in this case is an LED kit that is ready to go for your bamboo lab printers. It'll work on the X1 and the P1 series.  It comes with everything you need, no soldering required. It's all plug and play and it's crazy simple to install. That's right, it is really gonna brighten your day. That one was for Brian Vines. I don't know, I don't know what happened there. But it is really gonna make this thing shine, if you know what I'm saying. There are people out there probably wondering why the heck I would do this and the answer is because the stock light that comes on our X1 and our P1 series isn't really that bright. I'll show you later in the video a comparison between the two but I already put this on a couple printers and it makes a world of a difference and today I wanted to show you what kind of difference it makes and how to install it. So let's go. So I'm here with Neo and this is the very first X1 carbon that I ever had. It's time to make this thing shine, quite literally actually.  You don't want any shocking arcs or any of that stuff going on when we're playing with the wiring. It's just one cable that we're going to be pulling out and putting back in but let's be safe about it. Now what we need to do is take our AMS off the top. If you have room on this side of your printer you can actually just set your AMS right down carefully like this right here. Make sure you're not stretching your boat and tube or the cables but it will set down next to the printer if you do it right and kind of angle the back towards the printer. Then we want to take our top glass off so I'm going to take that off and set it behind me. And once we get this far we're ready to jump into the install. Now grab yourself some isopropyl alcohol. I prefer 90 to 99% if you can and a microfiber cloth if you have one. If you don't, paper towels will work. Just be careful not to leave a bunch of fibers behind. A microfiber is better for this but you got to use what you have and if you have a paper towel go for it. I'm not going to judge it. Pop that front door open like this and then we're going to spray the alcohol on our microfiber towel and then we're going to wipe the inside of the printer where we're going to stick down the new LEDs. That's going to be on the side back here. We're going to pull the whole head forward. I like to kind of push it all the way forward if you can do that. And then we're going to go underneath this back lip under here and then on the side we're going to go underneath this back lip all in here.  If you're looking at the printer it'll be your left side. On the inside there's a little electronic store that kind of flaps right open and we're going to pull that open at this time. Once you pull it open inside you're going to see a bunch of wires but we're going to look for the one that only has two and mine are black and red. It's the one that is kind of right here. Once you see that if it has any hot glue you can pull it off and at this time you can actually disconnect that wire. Now it's time to grab our kit from TH3D and this one is for the X1 series as you can see right there. Inside the kit we get our strip lights here which are right there. We get four cable clips just like that and a nice little case if you want to put your business cards in there when you're done. Each of the LED strips on these do have a 3M adhesive here. Each of the three LED strips that you get in this set have 3M adhesive. That's going to help this stick really nice to our printer and like I said we get four clips to help us cable manage as well. So let's get this installed. Now we want to take our strips and find the end just like that and this little end on our LED strips is going to plug into where we unplugged the other lights and it should really only go in there one way but just be careful you don't want to shove it in backwards or anything you don't want to wreck that part on the board but it should go in there just like that pretty much one way and then we are going to hold this wire and we're going to close that door around it so that the wire comes out of the back out this way. So now you're left with the wire here. From here we just need to situate our LED lights. So I'm going to put mine somewhere in this area right here probably about right there and you can put the wire underneath here to kind of hold it and then I think I'm going to go about right there. So flip it over you already cleaned the plastic up I want to peel off that protective coating on the 3M tape like that and that'll expose the tape then I'm going to kind of position it to where I wanted it. I like mine nice and straight we're going to go right about right there and just press down on your LEDs not too hard don't crush them but it shouldn't hurt them to make sure it's nice and solid right there. Your first one's on let's go on to the second one. So the second one is where we're going to use our first little cable clip cable tie kind of thing these are cable clips they kind of keep cables out of the way of things and we're going to use that here so you want to take and peel off the tape from the back like that and you want to tuck this thing up underneath here as far as we'll go and just make sure it's nice and tucked up underneath so it's it's sticking faced you know bottom faced up take your finger underneath push it up on there make sure it sticks really good and then we're going to bring our wire around like this I got it I definitely got a little close it's okay to make mistakes so I'm just going to pull it down I'm going to move it over just a little bit to like right there hold your wires with your thumb over here and then push with your finger and they'll go in there we go so now once they're secured in there they're not going to get hit by your cable chain and we're going to go on top of this I like Bowden coupler tube right there and we're going to go right on top just like that and this is where we're going to start placing our second LED for our second LED we are going to place it up underneath of this lip right here so this is the back of the LED we're going to go right up under here like this and you want to make sure that it's not too close to the corner not way in the corner like that I like to keep it out just a little bit so the end of the LED is about right here and right there and I'll show this in a little while but I think that's a really good place for it right up in there I'm going to pull the back off like we did before and peel that and then I'm actually going to stick it up as you can see about right here hopefully the camera is getting a good shot of that I want it as close to this outer edge here as I can get I don't want it way up in there I like it way up close to this edge right in here that way it will shine out a little bit more so I'm going to push that in and make sure it's nice and tight up underneath there I'm going to make sure this cable over here that came out is tucked up like this that way it's out of the way and it's nicely tucked up in there this cable will come in like this this cable chain here will come in but it doesn't sit way back in there like that it's not going to hit that cable so you should be okay but if it droops down a little bit just make sure it's up and out of the way this cable clip does a really good job there I think I'm going to suggest to TH3D that they toss maybe a couple extra cable clips in here for us to do this because I really would like to see another one right up in here probably underneath here for our third LED we're going to put it right up along the right side of the printer right here this is where the second one is so I turned the printer this way so this is where the second one is right over here and I'm going to put my third one right up underneath this lip so I'm going to peel the back off the third LED I'm going to place it where I think I'm going to want it which is against this outer edge again about right there so it's right under here you can see where the cable goes up and it's closest to this edge as I can get it right under here so I'm going to press that to make it stick just like this so this is where the last three cable clips come into play we need to get these three cable clips up along this lip right here to hold this wire out because the cable chain will come into this channel so we're going to get three cable clips along here to hold these wires up and out of the way of that cable chain and once we do that our installation will be done okay so here's what I did I got one pretty much right after this seam you can see in the foam up here right underneath and that catches right around the corner then I did another one maybe a two inches inch and a half, two inches out from that one right here and then I did another one much closer over here because we're going to need to take up all of this slack and I'm going to double this back into this cable clip so how I'm going to do that is I'm going to push I'm going to pull the slack I'm going to push it into the cable clip like that and then you'll see a loop right here I'm actually going to double that loop back and push it all into that cable clip now this will get it up out of the way of our cable chain and we'll test that in a second and it looks nice and clean under there it looks really good so everything is nicely cable managed right under here and our last LED sits right here that's going to shine down really nice I like that so let's put this all back together and see what it looks like now that we got the LEDs installed which was pretty dang easy we need to put this thing back together turn it on and see what it looks like we'll start with the top so we'll plop the top back on if you're using an X1 and then we'll drop the AMS right back on top wherever you prefer it I like mine a little farther towards the rear of my printer but it's totally personal preference now it's time to turn this thing on and see how much it lights up so I flip the switch in a second here it should boot up and we can see right inside the printer that looks pretty good let's pop this door open and that is pretty dang bright so I ran and grabbed another X1 carbon and we're going to set them next to each other and compare a stock light versus the upgraded TH3D set so I just got it plugged in I'm going to flip it on right now and we're going to watch to see how bright it is through the door you can see this side is the upgraded TH3D version of the LED lights and for $13.99 I really don't think it's too bad on this side it should kick on any second oh I'm looking it is on actually it's very hard to tell but it is on let me pop the front doors open let me pop these front doors open so you guys can see a difference that let me pop these front doors open so you can see a difference so both lights are on you can see the stock light shows on my hand and it's right here along the side and the TH3D version bam there's light everywhere I really like this it looks really good it is definitely an upgrade over the stock printer alright for this next test I grabbed this really awesome clock spring print I have it is in black and it's galaxy black I grabbed this because it was dark and it's going to be kind of hard to see with not a lot of light so I'm going to toss it in just like there that's the stock printer and if we look right here it's kind of hard to see you can see it you can catch a kind of a reflection off this way right here but it's kind of hard to see in there now if I take it and put it over into the TH3D upgraded version you can see much much more light I can see light from all sides now which is really nice up from the top and then from around here it's just all together much better to see your models now I kind of wish there was a way to get both lights working I would like to see the extra light with the stock light coming on along with the TH3D lights that would be pretty cool I don't know if it would do a lot but it would do something and I think that that would be pretty cool to see but as you can see this is much much better even for darker prints I should also mention that they do make kits for the P series so the P1P and the P1S it is almost identical installation with the exception of where you plug the light in in the front of the printer it's actually right behind the screen I'll show that while we're talking right here and then where you actually install the LEDs the first one wouldn't go along that panel because there is no panel on the P1P it would actually go up underneath the extrusion like we did the second two on the X1 Carbon but on the first rail so same spot just up underneath that extrusion instead of on the side I think it's awesome because it adds light if you don't have any extra light around your P1P and for the P1S it's enclosed so just like the X1 series you're gonna get some awesome light inside that case so real quick I wanna jump in and just let you guys know I actually purchased these kits I jumped on TH3D's website which there'll be a link in the description below and I bought these kits he did not give them to me they were not sent to me for a video or review or anything like that I actually bought them because I saw how they worked and I really thought they'd be great kits at only $13.99 it is actually a very good bargain for the extra light you get you can still see in this one really good right now even though you're kind of angled from the camera and I'm really impressed by that are there other things you could do to make it brighter inside of your printers? Absolutely there are a ton of different printed brackets and lifters and risers and AMS risers and LED kits and all of that out there that you can print for any of your bamboo lab printers to add light to them these kits I really like because not only are they only about 10 minutes to install each which is phenomenal because I don't have a ton of time I don't have to print all the other stuff is it cool to have that other stuff? Sure the brackets are great the risers are really cool but to be honest with you all I wanna do is see better inside that printer and this allows me to get it done super cheap and very fast I don't have to cut any LEDs myself I don't have to solder anything everything comes ready to go you literally just plug it in and stick them on that's it it is so easy so in my opinion yes these are 100% worth it and for the price you pay for these you really get everything you need again there's a link in the description below and I did talk to Tim he just got a shipment in of these I think he got 100 kits each I had to double check that but I believe he got 100 kits in or 100 kits each for the P1 series and for the X1 series and that's it the first round of these sold out in his shop and this is the chance to get in on the second round before he has to reorder and then you're waiting a few weeks to try to find them later so jump in there now if you wanna grab some cause this is a great time to do that and let me know in the comments below if you think this is a really cool upgrade or maybe not so much I'd love to hear what you guys think anything to help my printing experience better is a good upgrade to me and I really love that you get this much light so let me know again in the description what you think is this upgrade worth it or not so much is there a better kit out there cause I'd love to hear that but I definitely think you should check these out and as always don't forget to smash that like button hit the subscribe if you have not already done that I appreciate every single one of you guys and if you wanna see more bamboo lab upgrades you gotta check out this video right here