It's Apple event day and that means we're here to dissect and share our reactions to the new iPhones 15, the new Apple watches, and more here on Mac GeekGab 999, the super pal andromic expialidocious edition for Tuesday September 12th, 2023. Greetings folks and welcome to Mac GeekGab, the show where we usually answer your questions and share your tips and share some cool stuff found, but today we are doing things a little differently because of course there was an Apple event earlier on this wonderful September 12th and so we are here to talk about it and do all of those things. Sponsors for this episode include PIAVPN.com slash MGG where you can go to save 82% off of their great VPN service plus like four free months. So we'll talk about that in a little bit and then also BBE at it at barebones.com. So we'll talk about both of those things in a little while. For now, here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton and here in Longbond, Colorado, I'm Jeff Gamet. Thanks for joining me here on this Jeff Gamet. This is I know we've had you on for several Apple event reaction episodes and so it seemed perfectly fitting to have you here for this one. Well, when you asked if I could be on, there was no hesitation. It was I couldn't type yes fast enough because of course I want to be here with you doing this. Yeah, it's great. Pete was unable to make it today. So it is just the two of us for those of you listening at home. It's also an interesting episode for us. It is Mac Geekab 999, right? It is the last of the triple digits. It is the it is the one of the most palindromic episodes we've ever had because it's all the same number, right? But what's cool is we actually get three two palindromic episodes in the next three weeks because this one because 1000 and one is coming up. You got it. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. So it's very cool. Congratulations. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. It's it's for a lot of reasons. It's good to have you here for this particular episode. You and I many times over the years have dissected Apple events together either on this show or on daily observations, which was a show that you and I worked together to create when we were running the Mac Observer. So it's yeah, this feels this feels very, very natural and very good. And it's a special episode. You were, you know, you were around when Mac Geekab started.  Yeah, same. Sorry, sorry, but in a good way. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. I think I want to just dive right in here. And as always, I never feel any obligation to go in the exact same order that Apple did for their event. Of course, they started with watches and and because of course, they did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fine.  We're not here to regurgitate what Apple said in its entirety. We're not here to just just summarize the event because you get to watch it. And there are other people out there summarizing the event. What we do is we dissect and share our reactions to the things that we react to, which means that there might be some stuff that we don't cover. And that's OK. But I want to start with the iPhones 15. So as typical, two different models, the 15, two different families of iPhone, the 15, the 15 pro, and then there are the standard and max sizes in each of those 6.1 and 6.7 inches. I want to jump around here when. So in terms of the sizes, they sound like the same sizes that we've had for a little while. They do. They do. However, as often happens over the last week or so, I've been receiving shipments from various third party vendors of cases for the new what's called up until today, twenty, twenty three, six point one inch iPhone, right? Pro iPhone Pro, which is important, an important distinction. And as always, I take my existing current then current gen iPhone Pro, so my 14 pro and I put it in the cases to see did the buttons move, whatever, because it's the same size, six point one, six point one. And with cases from all of the vendors I've received, which are multiple and they are very reputable vendors. I don't know if I'm supposed to share their names yet, so I won't. But my iPhone 14 pro did not fit into the case with the 15 pro. It was my 14 pro was a little too tall. And I didn't understand that until today. In fact, I thought with the first one showed up that maybe one vendor had made a mistake. But when they both were like this, I realized, no, there's something going on. And jumping around, I think that it is because the 15 pro when Apple was announcing that it is titanium, they said, and that makes the that allows us to make the the case for the for the phone, not the not the case that you'd put around the phone, but the shell of the phone, the frame, the frame a little bit thinner. And it was like, Ah, ding, ding, ding. Yes. So no, your 14 pro case would probably cause the iPhone 15 pro to swim a little bit in it and fall out. And so you probably don't want to do that. This seems like a great third party opportunity for for in case bumpers. Oh, yeah, you think people will will sell, you know, adaptor kits to make your 14 pro case work with the 15 pro? I don't think so. I think they want to sell you a new case. Yeah, they want to sell you a new case. But but I could see the company that's like, man, we just don't have the infrastructure to make cases.  It's I don't think it's going to happen. But I don't know you could as you say that that is this is a perfect opportunity for a cottage industry, right?  But yeah, I could see that like, like the the all of the various continuity camera mounts that just come and go on Amazon, you buy one today, and then in a few days, like that same one isn't there, but something very similar to it is I could see something like this showing up. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, my guess is it would screw up your MagSafe connector. Depending on that, I don't think it's yeah, the thickness it's it for me where it felt like it was too big was on the height of the phone, like the long edge of the phone from the top to the bottom, but we'll see. So I wanted to share that but that's certainly not the most important thing to to spend all of our time on. Let's let's talk about the phones. What what was what jumped out to you on on the iPhone's 15 or 15 pro? I'll start with the 15s. Okay. And first thing was when when for the 15 line, they said thinner bezels. Yes. And that was actually a point where I thought, Well, maybe cases aren't going to work. When they started talking about the changes they're making to the frame there. So you have the more contoured edges. They're doing the the the etching for texturing for better grip. They talked about the the new strong coating on the display surface. And just all the things that they they were talking about going down the line about about making it more comfortable in your hand and making it look more grippy. Yeah. And what that tells me is that Apple really, really would love us to not put cases on our iPhones. I had the same feeling as I was. Yes, like and this is true. Like Apple really doesn't want us to put cases on our iPhones. I think that's especially true now of the 15 pro or made land better with the 15 pro being made of titanium. People saying, well, a titanium super strong like and be gorgeous. Like maybe I just want to and maybe it feels good or feels feels good or not feels good or feels good or feels safer in one's hand. If like you said it's been it's been etched. The other thing that I noticed as they were talking about these so the the iPhone 15, right? The it's got the OLED display, right? This is the non pro model, right? OLED display goes all the way up to 2000 nits. If you're running HDR 1600 nits, like it's got this whole new matte finish. It's got the ceramic shield on the glass. The cameras on the 15 regular 15 are quite impressive. 48 megapixel main camera, a telephoto using the center 12 megapixels of the camera. It's got auto portrait mode, which I have been seeing on my iPhone 14 pro with with the iOS 17 betas I have seen it jump into portrait mode. So I think that we all might get that or at least some of us might get that all the night mode enhancements and as they were going through that and there's some other things I want to talk about too and maybe we'll even come back to some of those that I just glossed over. But as they were talking about that, my feeling was this is they're describing a pro iPhone here they are selling this to pro customers. In fact, they even said something like very early on. They said this is going to be a hit with our pro users. They they they. Yes, you're right. They did say that. And so that's interesting to me. And and it's interesting for a lot of reasons. One, the big one is amongst the people that I talk to regularly, many of whom are nerds like us, almost always buy a new phone every year, even though we really don't need to. A lot of folks were like, I don't know if this is the year that I'm skipping a phone. Like I don't know that I need a new phone. You know, the economy isn't as rocking as it has been for a while. Right. You know, and so it's much softer economically, you know, people are more conservative with their dollars and a little more risk averse. And so I this was an interesting given that backdrop in my own head. I thought it was really interesting that one of the first things they said was this is going to be a hit with our pro users because it's like you you what you're doing is setting up my hypothesis, which is which is, yeah, the economy is not as good. People are a little more risk averse with with spending. And but there's a lot of people that really, really wanted the iPhone 14 Pro. So Apple says, let's give them the iPhone 14 Pro at a more affordable price. Yes. And and they just change out the the outer shell on it, essentially, essentially, right. And and then sell it at a lower price. There we go. Now you have the iPhone 15. But it's basically the iPhone 14 Pro. It's basic. You're right. The camera is only two cameras, not three. Like, you know, it's essentially the iPhone 14 Pro. But it's a better camera than I would have expected in the non pro model. And I agree. Yeah. When they started rattling off camera specs. I was quite surprised because I felt like I was listening to to the pro iPhone camera specs. Yep. Yep. Same. And I was actually sitting there with my wife and my daughter was the first time I had company watching an Apple event that wasn't like you. Well, we were sitting next to each other somewhere in California, right? Yeah, good times. Good times. Yeah, exactly. But for the couch, usually I am left alone in the living room, but my daughter's home from Italy. And so she was there with me. And it was really interesting because it was you know, we were we were able to have some conversation. And then of course, we had conversation in our Mackie cab discord room too. And there was a lot of this like, well, what's the differentiator going to be? And we'll get to that. Maybe. I mean, we will address what Apple says the differentiator is whether that is a differentiator that matters to you or me is going to be interesting. But but yeah, I it is interesting. I switching gears for a second, I was super and like I am super impressed and happy that the emergency SOS that we got starting last year carries over, you know, to the iPhone 15 and 15 pro. Not only is it and they have the find my via satellite so that well, yes, find my via satellite, they also have like we'll come rescue you if you're dying in the woods or whatever. But now there's roadside assistance through AAA in the United States. So this has moved from it's not just for I'm dying in the woods. It's now for my car died in the woods, right, that you can use this SOS for not just calls that you would make to 911 here in the United States. I was not surprised to see this feature at all. Okay.  What what two first responders qualifies as a real SOS emergency? And what qualifies to the average person as a real emergency are not the same thing. So they're being stuck lost on a back road out of gas to you as an average user.  It's night. I don't I I don't have gas in my car. Yeah. But for first responders, that's a AAA call. Correct. Correct.  Usually I mean, there might be a scenario where you would be surprised. Okay, maybe people do. Yeah. But this is great because it will probably also cut down on those 911 calls that don't need to be 911 calls. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Also calling 911 in those situations. Well, it's easy to bag on people for doing that. You're lost somewhere. Back country. You don't know what city what county you're in. So air. So what phone number non-emergency phone number would you call anyhow? So people the AAA thing, you've just solved that problem. You don't you don't need to understand what jurisdiction you're in. All you need to know is that your iPhone can get AAA up there to give you gas to tow your car to whatever it is that you need AAA for. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I have a hypothesis why this didn't happen last year. And I think it's because Apple didn't want to roll out everything at once and then have something break in a horrible way. So try the try the most important part. Let's save lives. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's working well. Yes, we've seen where the problems are, which which accounts for for the second part. Right. Which is right. Yeah, sort out the system. It doesn't really matter what you're using it for. You get to learn whether the system works, right? Right. Yeah. And my guess is that the roadside assistance will get used a lot. And I'm AAA is going to see a nice little boost in subscriptions. I liked that you can if you already have a AAA subscription, this is included. And if you don't, you can get a just via your phone, you know, via your iPhone roadside assistance subscription, presumably priced somewhat differently, although I don't know what the difference is. So maybe it's just a AAA subscription, which is fine.  So yeah, I'm so we've got this camera in there, which I find fascinating, even the front camera has true depth and auto focus. Yeah, it's a it's a that's an interesting that the iPhone 15 is a compelling product, even for us, for me as a, I've only ever bought a pro except that one time I bought the 10R, which interestingly, was the last time the economy was kind of soft. Oh, interesting. But I'm with you. I've always been a by the pro model ever since the pro models were a thing. And I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, I need to actually really go through the specs and my needs and figure out what phone is the appropriate purchase for me. I agree. I agree. Yeah. I am very happy that both iPhones 15 now have ultra wideband in the Bluetooth chip, right? So that this this now allows for find my friends to use the same sort of precision finding tracking that you get with AirPods, right, where it narrows you down to a thing. One other thing along those lines that I believe will come with the iOS and Apple TV OS 17 is that our Apple TV remotes or Apple TV 4k remotes have an ultra wideband chip in them to be tracked like an air tag and hopefully now it will be enabled, even though we've had this in our possession for a long time. This is criminal that it hasn't been activated. It's especially criminal. And when I say it's especially criminal, it's like it makes me want to commit criminal acts when I am looking for my remote knowing that I have all the technology there except the software to to help me find it. Yeah, I am so with you. I have refrained from committing any criminal acts. Jeff, I just want to make that clear. I I laud you for your self control. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So oh, and and by the way, USB C connector, I know we all kind of knew that that was coming. But I'm kind of I kind of like it. Apple, like they did, they set us up for this the right way, because we have USB C on our iPads and our laptops, and we have MagSafe as well for our phones. And so it it's the least amount. It's the least worst time to do this, I think. Yeah, it's the least worst time to do this for me. I was thinking about it. Oh man, what am I going to do about chargers, blah, blah, blah, wait, except in my car. I just put my iPhone on a wireless charger. Oh, right. The car. So in my car, I don't need to change out anything other than the cable, right? So I'll just throw a USB A to C cable in there. Yeah. Because that's it. That's all you need to do. Yeah, that'll be fine. Yeah. I think they're no better way to say this, what I need to do when I have a moment, which we have not had yet, is to go through all of the USB C specs for the standard and the pro phones. Because I've had this nagging thing in the back of my mind for a while now. But ever since I accepted that, yeah, Apple actually is going to do USB C instead of skipping it and doing something else. I've been thinking that they will have two versions of the spec, the one for the standard phone and the high power version for the pro phones. Which they do in terms of speeds. So we already know that. Yeah, they, well, in a sense, they talked about once they got into the iPhone 15 Pro land, they said, and the iPhone 15 Pro with the right cable will do 10 gig transfers. Okay, so I was probably typing something snarky on mastodon at the time and miss that. Okay, so that confirms the hypothesis. Now it can be a theory that I had, which is that there will be different specs on the standard versus pro phone. Is that enough to make someone feel like they need to go to pro? If you're transferring large chunks of data wired to or from more likely from your phone, then you would want that fast speed. One thing that they showed, I mean, of course, you know, taking, you know, 4k video off of the phone or whatever, of course, they also showed a scenario where they someone was using the phone wired to a Mac and taking pictures that were going directly to the Mac, not even being saved on the phone. And when you need the 10 gig cable for that too. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, we did. I just while we're talking about cables, a lesson that we learned recently here on the show, which I will reiterate is that in our tests, and I want to make it very clear that I am not saying the specs are the same, because they're not the same. But in our tests here, USB for 40 gigabit cables work interchangeably with Thunderbolt three and Thunderbolt for 40 gigabit cables. In so much as a USB for 40 gig cable, 40 gig cable will connect to a Thunderbolt device, including a Thunderbolt dock and acts like it is Thunderbolt. Now I know that the Thunderbolt stuff is held to a tighter standard in terms of the the, you know, you have to have to have it reviewed by the by, you know, Intel and Apple and the Thunderbolt consortium or whatever, you don't have to do that with a USB for cable or you can do it with the USB consortium, but you don't have to. But as far as just doing it, you know, the USB for 40 gig cables, which are less than half the price of a Thunderbolt for cable will work just fine. In our tests, that's good, good Intel. Yeah, now if I were relying on this for a professional workflow, I'd probably just spend the extra money and pay the Thunderbolt tax. Sure, it's also a business expense at that point. Yeah. But it but for throwing things in my travel bag that A are going to get beat up and B I need to have work with all the devices that I have. Those USB four cables are my go to now because I can just replace them when they start to flake out. And I'm not treating them like they're, you know, flexible gold or something. So Do you have a favorite brand? I'm asking not even for a friend. I'm asking for me. Yeah, there's there's notes. I will find the episode where we recently talked about it and I will link it here. I listed the cables that I bought, but I intentionally bought some cables of brands that like we've never heard of before. I bought OWC and cable matters, right? And those all worked as they were supposed to. And then also I bought like, you know, the cheapest Amazon would would sell me cable. And that also worked. So okay. Yeah, that's that's actually awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So of course, Thunderbolt five was just announced as someone in our live discord chat as Brian and Rowan our chat tells me so that'll change everything maybe or maybe not because you can get USB four to go way faster than 40 gigs. So maybe it's all still the same in terms of the cables. Devices are different. I'm totally talking about cables here. But but anyway, so like for my car, I might wind up buying just some cables that'll do anything. And that way, if I need to like connect my Mac to a monitor, it's like, Well, I know that this cable is capable of that, right? Yeah. And keep in mind, when Intel announces new Thunderbolt, that doesn't mean they announced that something and I haven't read any of the stuff on Thunderbolt five yet. But just because Intel announces it doesn't mean that it's available for products today. Oh gosh, no. No, it'll be here. It'll be quite some time I would imagine. Yes. What else about the iPhone 15 Pro? What other differentiators did you notice? One of the things that okay, I just have to address it because it's a thing for me. Yeah, and it's getting rid of the mute toggle, physical toggle switch and replacing it with the action button. There are so many reasons why this makes sense. Okay. And yet, I wish it hadn't happened, because the toggle switch was put on the first iPhone and has been there on every iPhone ever since, because it needs to be that. And I remember Steve Jobs standing on stage and saying that you don't need to go through all this weird stuff of which what's the right button push or right sequence to make your phone mute. When you need it to stop making sound, you needed to stop making sound flip the switch and it's done. Also, you can feel in your pocket, even if it's toggle the switch back and forth to know if your phone is on mute or not, you never have to look at it. Replacing it with an action button while giving us all of these new features, which will be very cool, takes away that core functionality of your phone being a phone in that sense. And and and even though I'm certain, no, I'm not certain. I was going to say, even though I'm certain, I will adapt to the way it works. I don't know. For me, that switch is something I use multiple times every single day. And and I am not exaggerating that at all. And the fact that I can that I know the the sound state of my phone without ever having to look at it is a key thing for me. And with the action button, you will lose that. That is true. You won't be able to just feel your phone with your thumb in your pocket and know is it muted or is it not muted? I will give you that. I wonder if you are in the majority or the minority, my my guess, and this is I guess I'm in the minority. I think you're in a very, very small minority. Yeah, in terms of this, because I think most people leave their phone ringer on mute 100% of the time or near 99% of the time, except those rare scenarios where it's like, no, I need to know like there's an important phone call, whatever. But other than that, I think most people just keep their phones in that in that muted state. And therefore that switch becomes all but useless. Yes. And I agree.   This this is true. I just like it less. No, I get you. Okay, so so we've hit on we've touched on one of the things and that's USB three speeds, 10 gigabit, 10 gig USB speeds, just to be very specific. That's one differentiator between the 15 pro and the 15 another, of course, is the chip, the 15 has 17 pro chip. Correct nanometer. That's right. Yes. It seems a little faster. The neural engine is a lot faster. Double the speed if I if my notes are correct. The GPU is 20% faster. The CPU is 10% faster. One of the big benefits of the faster neural engine. And it comes to both the non and pro version is that more of the Siri things happen on device. Yes. And so you're able to do more, especially things with health and all that. So like that's fine, but that's not a differentiator. That's a nice feature. Their whole thing other than like really high end photography or videography seem to be if you play games, the 15 pro is the best handheld game device you could buy. I thought that was so weird that that that was the thing. Yeah. What a niche use. I mean, you're really pushing on other than, oh, but you don't get titanium and you don't get an always on screen, which is kind of a bummer because the 15 has the OLED screen, right?  I have a hypothesis on this. It doesn't. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. So when you look at what we get in the 15 line, not the pro line, yeah, it's basically the 14 pro. Yeah.  So what sets the 15 pro apart for most users? Exactly. It's the 15 pro max that's different. Because only a little bit, right? It's got the 5x zoom instead of 3x zoom, but that's it, right? Yes. But it's also the one that lets you do the spatial videos. I think spate. Okay. So we haven't talked about this, but there is a way to do spatial videos. I thought that was the both pro models. Oh, if it's both models that that totally knocks my someone will correct me if I'm Well, tell us which one of us remembered it correctly. I thought it was just the max. I didn't think so. I thought it was both pro models. You turn it, you turn it in portrait mode. Sorry, you turn it in landscape mode. And then the two cameras at the top now take a stereo video that can then become a spatial video. Yeah, right. Totally targeting vision pro. Yeah. So right. Yeah, you can't watch it on the phone. I mean, you could watch it, but it's going to be 2D, but then you could go watch it on a vision pro. So in order to make take advantage of that, you need to spend the extra cash in addition to the 15 pro on the vision pro. But but it's smart because if you want people to use vision pro, giving them the ability to make content that they can look at on the vision pro is important. Yeah. All right. So so I think for a moment, I think that is correct because I have the I take little screenshots as we're as we're doing the thing. And if you're watching the video, you'll be able to see this is a screenshot I grabbed from the keynote that is this that when they show like they're at the end of the segment on the 15 pro, they put up this screen, this screen that shows all of the features in like a little grid and it's it's laid out nicely. And this is for both pro models that it talks about. And it says Wi-Fi 6E, by the way, that, you know, that non announcement. So there you go. It shows USB three. It shows five X telephoto. And on that, it specifically says on the pro max, right? But then right next to that, it says spatial video without that without a distinction. So yeah. Okay. Well, then in that case, this causes, I think a product, a product lineup problem for Apple. Yeah. For the for the 12 pro, not 12 pro max. The 12? You're talking a 15 pro. Yeah. Okay. See, here's the funny thing.  Okay, the 15. Yes, the 15. Yeah, yeah. The 15 pro versus the the 15. Because the 15 is is basically last year's pro model in a different case. Yeah. Unless you, unless you need the the cameras, if you, you know, being able to do 24, 28, 35 millimeter yeah, spatial video. Yeah. What, where does the the 6.1 inch 12 15 pro fit into the mix anymore? It almost doesn't make sense for me. If you're going to go pro, it's it's feeling to me like at this point, you need to go pro max. And if you're not going pro max, then go with the standard. Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's interesting. That's yeah. It's it's crazy. I like yeah. I am looking here at the screenshot that I grabbed for the non fifth non pro 15. And I don't see Wi Fi six e nor do I see thread on it, which are both on the spec sheet for for the other one for the pro. So maybe that's a differentiator. I don't know. It's I'm going to speculate it's a differentiator because if they basically took the 14 pro and put it in a different body, then your manufacturing costs will be lower for the newer phone. Oh, maybe I'm looking at tech specs on Apple's website here. And and we will see if, in fact, there is truly a differentiator here. So let's get to the wireless section of Apple's tech specs, video recording, true depth camera, face ID, apple paper, the cellular and wireless. So we get Wi Fi six on the the 15 Wi Fi 6 e on the 15 pro and no thread on the the regular 15. So yeah, that is a differentiator. Yes. So and I'm looking at Mac Tracker. Yep. And the specs that I'm seeing for the 14 pro. Yes, it's basically the same as the 15. What I just what I just read. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I have a question for both of us. I'll ask it to you first. Will you be buying a new iPhone this year? And if so, if you had to make the decision right now and you reserve the right to change your mind between now and whenever you order, you don't have to like lock this in stone. But if you had to make the decision right now, which one would it be? I it would actually be a really tough call for me between the the 6.1 inch 15 and the 6.1 inch 15 pro. Yeah. And honestly, the thing that that's making it a tougher decision for me, it's it's not the the Wi-Fi. It's not the thread. It's not better bandwidth on USB-C. It's what's in the cameras. And am I likely to use the camera features in the in the 15 pro? And regardless, I'm getting better cameras than I have in my 12 pro today. So OK, fair. Yeah. 15 is a very enticing price point right now. I agree. I agree. So here's I will answer the same question. I have a 14 pro that I use as my daily driver. If I am going to buy a new phone, I don't know if I'm going to buy a new phone because the 15 makes no sense for me. I would essentially be getting the same phone, essentially, that I currently have. I would have to spend some amount of cash on it, whether I trade my 14 in or hand it down through the family system that we have, right? But I would be spending some amount of money to get the same phone with slightly less features because the 14 pro will do the the standby mode where you put it on its side. I mean, they all the phones will do that that run iOS 17. But my 14 pro hasn't always on screen. The 15 does not. So for me, it's the always on screen that that is the differentiator there. There's no reason for me to get a 15. It would be the 15 pro, which is spending even more money, obviously is a $200 delta there. And do I really want the titanium? The answer is yes, obviously. Will I do this? Probably. But I'm also do for a new Apple Watch this year. I have a series five and eight. So we'll talk about Apple Watches in a minute. But so I don't I don't like it's a hard. I'm hard. If I'm going to buy a new phone, it will be the 15 pro. I don't know if I am going to be buying a new phone or not. Time will tell. You know, I download a whole bunch of different things here, testing out software, checking out things, downloading like videos to make sure that the apps that we're talking about on the show work. I don't want my ISP involved in any of that. And that's especially true when I'm on the road doing stuff. I don't want whoever's managing that network plus the ISP, knowing what I'm doing, what I'm testing, how it's working. And this is why I am super happy that today I get to tell you about one of the best VPNs out there and easily one of the most affordable ones I've seen, the one I choose to pay for PIA. PIA stands for Private Internet Access and they take privacy seriously. Not only does PIA hide my IP address, it encrypts my entire connection and it'll do the same for you. They're super transparent there at PIA, right? They never store or record user data. And they're one of the few VPNs that supports P2P file sharing. So you can download just about anything and no one needs to know. And what I really love is you pay for one membership and it can protect up to 10 of your devices simultaneously.  You're going to get a better deal than I did. Plus four free months with a two-year plan. It comes out to just over two bucks a month. And there's a 30-day money back guarantee. So that's piavpn.com slash mgg for 83% off Private Internet Access. Piavpn.com slash mgg and our thanks to PIA for sponsoring this episode. Next up is BB Edit, one of my favorite apps. It's running all the time on my Macs because I use it so often for so many different things. For example, I will use BB Edit when I need to count the words in a document, right? Like I'm filling out some form. I need to be efficient about it.  Well, BB Edit is a great way to see what you're doing. You can kind of rearrange and move things around and like, okay, great. So it's good for that. It's good if I need to compare two bits of text and I can do it from the terminal to to compare two documents. It's awesome. Also, that's like the what I would call the non-nerdy stuff, although that's kind of nerdy, but then it gets even nerdy or when I'm doing coding, right? And I'll use BB Edit to do all of my coding because it makes it so nice to see. It highlights my code. It figures out what language I'm in. It does this automatically. And then it's kind of highlights functions in ways that make it easy to visually represent it. I can twist closed functions or definitions of things so that I can see them or focus on them. It's really fantastic. It does all of this great stuff. They've now got a repeat last command command, which is very convenient. Got to check this out. Go to bearbones.com. They've got a fantastic trial period that you get 30 days and there's a fresh eval period now for anybody out there that has pre 14 versions who were running in free mode previously. And then after the 30 days, you decide whether you're going to keep it for free and use some of the functionality, but not all of it. Or if you want all the functionality and then you just pay for it. You know, my guess is you're probably going to want to pay for it, but go check it out. You'll find out bearbones.com and our thanks to Bearbones and BB at it for sponsoring this episode. All right. Before we get to the Apple watches, I wanted to share something that I saw on Apple's website because all these new phones that we just talked about will be running iOS 17 as their baseline. And many of our phones will be able to upgrade to iOS 17 and that day will be September 18th, which I believe is Monday the 18th. So that is off by a day on my prediction. I was predicting the 19th. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. So it'll be it'll be the 18th, which is fine.  Dave, have you seen anything that says if iPad iOS 17 is dropping on the 18th as well? Because I know that we're it's another two weeks before we get Mac OS Wine Country. Good question. I just looked and iPad OS 17 also comes out on the 18th. OK. Yeah. And and we think that Mac OS is also coming Monday. No, it's two weeks later, I believe. Let's see. Apple has not given us a date for this, so I would not have. Oh, have they? OK. Yes. And I think it's two weeks later. All right. And I'm sorry, I don't. It was it was one of the screenshots that I saw someone pop up. And on one of my social media is probably came from the footnotes here, maybe. Yeah, I'm looking at the footnotes on the page. It might have been from the press releases. But it's like it's coming. It's coming two weeks later. Which is much earlier than we have previously seen. Oh, yeah, I'm not seeing it on the page for Mac OS. If I if I wait, I'm on Ventura here. This is why.  You need to go to Wine Country. Yes, I need to go to Wine Country. Yes. OK. Well, I'll look for it while we while we chit chat. I bet someone that's watching live is looking it up right now. They are. You're right. It is September 26th. OK. 100 percent correct. Yep. Thank you. And thanks to Ben in the in the chat. Thank you, Ben. Yep. Yep. All right. Two on nine twenty six. OK. Well, thanks for looking up the iPad OS thing for me and as if my fingers won't work so I couldn't type it myself. Yeah, yeah, no. But this is what we do here. So so let's let's talk. Let's talk Apple watches. I I'm I'm excited about what Apple is doing here. I mean, the the S nine sip, right, is way faster than the series eight, right? The 60 percent faster CPU. Now it's got that four core neural engine in there so that Siri requests can also happen locally on the watch, which holy crap. Right. Like it's like, yeah, how powerful does this thing need to be? What are they planning with this? I the watch has always felt overengineered to me. And and the evidence I will share for that is I'm Dave and I'm a nerd. I have only ever owned two Apple watches. I owned a series zero, which I still own and it still runs, arrived on release day and I own a series five. Last year, I bought a series eight and I wound up not even taking it out of the box until I gave it to my dad and helped him take it out of the box. It just I didn't I didn't need it. I have the always on screen, which was a big deal to me. But once I got that, I was like, well, do I need another watch? I don't I don't know. So they last a long time is what I'm saying. I am due for one, though. So and I went from the four to the eight. OK. And and honestly, my reason for doing that what it was a family thing. I I really wanted to watch on my dad's wrist that had fall detection. Yes. And it had been several years since I'd had a since I got a new watch. And I thought, this is my opportunity. I'll get my new watch and then I'll put my my series four on my dad's wrist, you know, as fall detection. Yep. And and I'm glad I did on every level. And and I'm not a watch wear yet because I needed to try one out back in our our TMO days. Right. When the series zero came out, I've been wearing an Apple watch ever since. Yeah. A lot of people. That's true for a lot of people. The Apple Watch made a lot of folks watch wearers who had never been watch wearers. That's right. Yeah. And I have I always have a hypothesis. Here's my hypothesis on why our Apple watches seem way over engineered and why Apple is talking more and more about Syrian device. Both with the watch and the phone. I think that this painfully over long time frame we're going through, where Siri feels incredibly stagnant is going to change. But Apple needs to have all of these other elements in place before that happens. You are 100 percent right. I in that I agree with you. I can't say that you're right because I don't know that you're right. But. But you also know that I'm right. Yeah, that's it. Because it's the whole I mean, it's fallen terribly far behind with with in the voice assistant world. And that's going to get leapfrogged as voice assistants and, you know, large language model chat things like chat GPT become one. Right. As soon as the Amazon A lady is essentially a voice interface to chat GPT or something like it. Siri is going to feel like you're talking to a parrot. Yeah, it it it'll be like, oh, you remember when we used to play with Eliza on our Apple twos? Exactly. Yeah, I do remember. It'll feel like that. So why? Yeah, yeah. But but I think Apple is setting us up for a huge leap forward with Siri. And when it happens, we will be both frustrated and excited, frustrated because why did we have to go so long with with what feels like an inferior product and then excited because we're going to be getting something that that exceeds what other voice assistant tools are offering us. Jeff, you just spent 99 cents for me and you're going to spend it for you to unless you have already paid it. Did you know that Eliza exists in the Mac App Store and it looks like you're playing it on a on an Apple, too. Were you aware of this? I'm looking it up right now. Eliza. Yeah, 99 cents on the Mac apps. There it is. Oh, my God, they even have the dual floppy drives sitting there in the icon and by. Yep, there it is. So anyway, I just went to put it in the show notes and the first thing that came up for Eliza was the Mac App Store. I'm like, why is it showing me that? Like, that doesn't make any sense. And turns out it makes good sense. Yeah, it's downloading even as we speak. So everyone, go get Eliza so that you can get your practice in for using Siri up until we get the the big change whenever that comes. This is interesting to me because I have noticed it has not been intentional, although my guess is you folks listening might have noticed the last few episodes have included what I will call nostalgia segments. Pete has asked me questions, maybe Pete's doing it intentionally, but where we've sort of gone down memory lane a little bit here and there. I only thought about it this past weekend when I was like, oh, you know, we are coming up to show a thousand. Like maybe that's why I'm feeling more nostalgic, or maybe that's why Pete's leading me that way. You just introduced today's nostalgia segment. And so I I'm channeling my inner Pete for you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I'll make sure Pete knows. But yeah, interesting. So anyway, back to the Apple Watch out of the nostalgia here. I'm terrible with the nostalgia. Like in moments, I embrace it, but then I really just kind of want to move forward because that's that's how I am. I'm I'm impatient. I like this watch. I like I love how Apple has yet again taken something from accessibility that people have used and sort of like found ways to make part of their lives. People that don't need it for the its intended accessibility used to people that are regularly abled instead of differently abled using some feature. And then Apple just brings it to the forefront. And of course, I'm talking about what we used to call assistive touch, I believe, and is now the double tap. Double tap. Yeah. Yep. To me, that's the killer feature on the new Apple Watch. But is it only on the new watch? Like, will we get it with the new watch? Oh, yes, on older watches, because they can do it. I thought it was just I think you're right. And so I think the assistive touch version, of course, that stays. Yes. But then. But then, yeah, fair, fair, additional things that it does. That will be just on the Apple Watch night, which tells me that they've probably refined the sensor. I'm sure they have.  So I think this is great. And if you didn't see it in the keynote, it's a thing where you you on your watch, wearing hand, you tap your forefinger and thumb together twice and can cause the watch to do some different things, which is cool. Yeah. It's very cool. And watching the types of things they were doing. I'm like, oh, I want this right now. Yeah. Taking pictures when you're using the camera remote answering or hanging up calls, muting things. Yeah. So they said they did say something interesting. They said available next month. So I don't think this is because the watch you can get if you were to order the watch, you can order it today and it would arrive next week, which is not next month, right? That's September 22nd that it would arrive. So when they said this is next month, I think this is coming in, you know, watch OS 10.1. By the way, watch OS 10.0 is also released on Monday the 18th with everything else. So. Yeah. So interesting. I don't know. I don't know. What else about the new watch? What are we that new bands, right? They've got their what are they calling their vegan leather thing? Fine woven, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Fine woven. OK. So when they announced that we are getting away from from leather. Yeah. All of our products. I turned to my office manager who was napping on the couch beside me. This would be my cat. Yes, of course. And I said, well, goodbye, Hermes. Because because the Hermes leather bands have already been pulled from sale. That happened like yesterday. Oh, interesting. But they have new they have four new Hermes. Right. And then they announced the new bands, which are not leather. Right. And I was like, OK, well, that that makes sense. But I was thinking, yeah, if you're going to go with Hermes, you went leather bands and and and three of the bands that they're making now, I look at and think, OK, those are nice. And I feel like there's kind of a Hermes thing going on. But then there's the one that's the the kind of silicone kind of one, the plastic one. Yep. And that does not feel like a Hermes product to me at all. You know, I'm curious to see what it looks like it like on a watch because it might be like, you know, it might wind up being like one of those things that Hermes creates. And then it becomes iconic because they created it. Yeah. It redefines what we think of when we think Hermes like a Birkenbag or what I don't think these watch bands are going to be like in in quite as short supply as a Birkenbag. But, you know, that sort of thing. I only learned about Birkenbags this week, and it's because my twenty three year old daughter is home and she's obsessed with fashion. So that's now. Yeah. My niece has taught me all about Birkenbags. OK. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is a new thing. And now welcome to the club, Dave. Yep. Yep. Exactly. Yep. I'll put a link in the show notes. If anybody actually cares to research Birkenbags, I can't believe we talked about Birkenbags on the show after that. Dave, I'm on. We could go anywhere. I know the the the bands that the Fine Wolven, which is Apple's, you know, different thing, though, I thought those were interesting. I'm curious to touch one and see what it feels like. Yep, me too. I want to see the Nike bands. The Nike bands look cool. They do like the recycled one with the flecks of things like those look fun. Yeah. When when when they did that or when they showed those, my first thought was, OK, so this concept is working well.  And it has the the little sprinkles. It's got little sprinkles that is similar to what's going on. Each watch band is unique because they just kind of dump them in so you get a random pattern on each watch. That's what they're doing with the Nike bands. Just different just different flecks. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. No, the Nike bands look cool. I'm I'm excited about those. He the sport loop band, they made a big deal about how the sport loop band now uses 83 percent recycled yarn. And my first thought was, what about the Amazon knockoffs? Like, are they also going to use 83 percent recycled yarn? My I have a theory. I would love to hear your theory. My theory is 100 percent yes, because those Amazon knockoffs are made in the same factory. I think I think it's, you know, they sell out the front door to Apple for 10 hours of the day. And then for 14 hours of the day, they sell out the back door to an Amazon distributor. That totally makes sense. I love this theory. I am completely on board. It's how it works. It's the it's it's the culture of of that industry over there. I don't know. I ended up with a really good travel mic. And it was because you had discovered it was like Ali Baba. Yeah. Some Barringer mic where they didn't silkscreen the logo on. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I bought and I and I still travel with that. It's an awesome mic. So thanks for that. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, yeah. So I'm I'm excited about the I like what they're doing with the watch. I like I'm the chip in it makes a big difference to me. I before we answer our would we buy one question this year? I want to talk about the ultra. OK, I think that's that's part of this this question, because chances are we wouldn't buy two watches, although we're nerds and I accept that. So let's let's talk about the ultra, right? The it also has the same chip, right? The S nine chip in there, which means the on device Siri, the double taps. It both of them have ultra wideband, which makes the finding of things easier, both the finding of your watch and also the finding of things using your watch is now as long as they all have ultra wideband, which is great. The brightness of the Apple Watch Ultra two now goes up to three thousand nits. That's 50 percent more than even the regular Apple Watch, which is super bright. Dual frequency GPS. They've got that. They call it the modular ultra watch face. That I it goes like edge to edge and has every gizmo and gadget you could possibly imagine on there. I'm I'm I've been tempted by the ultra. I put one on my wrist. I have I know I know I think if I remember correctly, you are someone with with small wrists as well. I think mine aren't quite as small as yours. Yeah. And I actually wear the smaller Apple Watch. Right. And even though I could wear the bigger one, I don't like wearing watches. So I wanted to be as small in light as possible. Sure. Well, the new watch Ultra is somewhat lighter because it's now 95 percent recycled titanium or whatever. So like they said, it's a little lighter. Like maybe I misunderstood that, but I'm tempted. I've worn the watch Ultra. It is chunky, but not too big for me. And I am also someone who wears mechanical watches, which are sort of naturally chunky, especially an automatic, because it's got to have the little winding, you know, whatever they call it, the counterweight in there. So I'm used to chunky watches. I like chunky watches. So the chunkiness of the Ultra does not bother me. And I'm I'm toying with the idea of just going with the Ultra, too, this year. But I don't know what about you? Is there anything about the Ultra you want to talk about? Or do you want to answer this question here? I'll blend it all together. First, I am completely the demographic for this watch. Interesting. Just straight up, because it's designed for people that do a lot of outdoor activities. Yep. End up in places where you're not going to have a cell signal. Where places where you get weird weather changes, you have big altitude changes. It's like everything about this watch says, oh, yeah, Jeff probably already owns one and I don't. And the reason I don't is because this would be a secondary watch for me. And I can't justify having two watches, right, or two Apple watches because it's too big for for what I want for daily use. That's fair. Yeah.  I mean, this is a really, really cool watch. And the titanium, we should talk about titanium for a minute as someone that does a lot about door stuff. If you haven't had side by side comparison between the regular thing, which is like stainless steel or aluminum or whatever. And then the titanium version, you don't get it.  Like it's magic, the difference with the titanium because it's stronger and it is so much lighter. So that the whole titanium thing to me is very compelling. It's actually one of the things that's that's very compelling about the the iPhone Pro this year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the screen brightness, when you live in a place like I do where you're higher altitude, you have more glare. It's just brighter in general. A brighter display makes a big difference. The and it has the dual GPS. So if I'm interpreting that correctly as someone that's done a lot of GPS stuff in the past, that means that it's acquiring two signals simultaneously. Yes, I believe that's correct. It's not just the one. And then, well, it yeah, normally you would have like what we've had traditionally in the watch. And I think some of the phones, although I believe it's changed over time, someone will clarify this for me, please. But is that you'd get we have one GPS receiver.  As you point out, the watch ultra is built for folks who are not near a cell signal. And so you need that or that second GPS receiver now actually makes a big difference. Yes, and it's the setup for what I think is coming next for for Apple Watch Ultra. OK, so with one signal, what it what it does is the watch gets a lock on a single satellite. And now it's tracking the position change of the satellite relative to you. And then it uses those different positions of the satellite to to pinpoint your location right slower, not as accurate. But it's way better than not having anything. And it's still pretty accurate. Yeah, you get to and now it's using the two satellites simultaneously to to to locate your position. And so you get much faster acquisition and you have much higher accuracy. So series three will add in the third. And that's your golden place in the gold standard. That's right, because now you have three satellites to triangulate your position basically instantly. And now you get GPS altitude. Oh, you're totally right.  And they're good theories. I like this. I am so happy I can bring theories to you of all people. Dave, I want to debunk one of them, I think. So you talked about titanium and I'm with you. It's lighter than than many other metals that are used in many of these other things. So I went and looked at the specs for the iPhone and the iPhone 15, the the, you know, 6.1 inch iPhone 15 is 171 grams. OK, the 15 pro, the titanium version is 187 grams. Well, thank you, bigger battery. Yeah, bigger battery. That's my guess. More cameras, too, right? There's yeah, yeah. And my guess is that that that's where your extra weight is really coming from. I think you're probably right. And it would weigh significantly more if it wasn't an aluminum frame or excuse me, a titanium frame. Yeah, fair. Yeah. No, yes, of course it would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I am. You know, I'm in a different spot than you with the watch because I didn't buy one for me last year. So I am on a series five. I am in a world where I could like I could buy a new watch and then also use my series five when I want, right? Like, see, this is a totally legit way to do the upgrade. And yeah, and I could do the same thing. My series eight is awesome. I have no need to replace it. You don't need. Yeah, that's the thing. If I wanted to supplement it. Yes, this would be the way to do it. And supplementing one year after you bought your most recent watch or, you know, four years after you bought your most recent watch, our different economic or at least different psychological games that we play with ourselves. So yes, they are. All right. I have one last thing to share before we take off here for this week. And that is that Apple mentioned this in the keynote, but they also put out a press release about it to make it very clear. There is a new case that is included now with the AirPods Pro second generation. And that case now has USBC. The mention we got of that in the keynote wasn't even really a mention. No, but it was there. And if you and if you weren't paying attention, you wouldn't have seen it. Nope, because they said you can use that same USB cable to charge and they listed off everything and, hey, check it out. There is an AirPods Pro case. There's an AirPods Pro case. And I'm like, I don't think that's how it is, but sure. OK. So yeah, there you go. All right. So Dave, now the next question is, yeah, can you buy the case separately? Oh, I see this is let's see, shop accessories for AirPods.  So I am looking at accessories for AirPods. No, no, no, second generation USBC. It's right there for two forty nine, but I don't see. But no separate case. Headphone accessories, maybe. Let me see. Headphone accessories. I can buy a case for the case. I can buy a case for the case and another cushion for the case. Wireless charging case for AirPods. OK. And the answer, Jeff, is not that I can tell. Not today, Jeff. Not today. Yeah, that's probably the right answer is not today. But we shall see if, in fact, that comes around. So. Fun stuff. Thanks for thanks for doing this with us. I think we've dissected everything. Is there anything else on on your list before we say goodbye to one another and every everyone else? Super fast. I like that that they're OK, making it a bit commercial and having fun. That's the way the keynote should be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought the pacing of this one was much slower than what we've seen previously, and that's what told me, oh, we're only getting air like watch and iPhone. There is no. And by the way, we have more to talk about with the Vision Pro or whatever. It was like, no, they spent obviously spent a lot of time talking about their Apple 2030 environmental. That was a big thing. Yeah, that was that was a lot of time to do that whole.  That was that was cute. And it was cute. And I thoroughly enjoyed that. They owned it like they like, yep, we know we talk about this. Let's let's have some fun with it this time. Thank goodness, you know, but that made it that made it last way longer than just somebody throwing up a slide and saying, here's all the things we're doing thanks by, you know, now now on to the good stuff. So now people are going to be talking about Apple's environmental initiatives a lot more than they otherwise would have. That's right. Oh, and one more, one more thing. iCloud Plus adds six terabyte and 12 terabyte plans. So yes, I saw that to the mix there. So that's good. That's good. Uh, you can buy. So listener Ben in our chat says you can buy a replacement AirPods case for for sixty nine, sorry, for eighty nine dollars US. And perhaps that would be one with USBC. OK, so yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be that would be if there is a path to it. And that that should be the path to it. That's how you get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like that the iPhone Pro, I think it's only the iPhone Pro can charge AirPods or Apple Watch from its USBC port. Right. The charging of the watch, that's a, you know, that's kind of nice. That that's yeah, that's a nice differentiator. Yeah, it is with USBC. Ben confirms. So yes, you can buy an AirPods Pro to Gen 2 case with USBC for eighty nine bucks to replace your one with lightning. OK, thanks for looking that up, Ben. That's amazing. Thanks for hanging out with us, Jeff. Thank you so much for doing this with me. I love this. So, Dave, thank you so much for having me.  Tell people where they can find you, if that's not something that people would have already done for those of you that haven't found me yet on social media is Jay Gammett right now, mostly mastered on an Instagram. Other shows I'm doing right now, most Tuesday evening. So it means later tonight. Check joiners, Mac Voices Live, I bet we'll talk about some of the same things Thursdays on Dave Ginsburg's in touch with iOS than on the British Tech Network. I'm hosting the big show on Thursdays, the Mac Show on Fridays. And Dave, you remember this guy, Brian Chaffin? Yeah, Brian and I, we do show called the Context Machine and it's a pretty safe bet. We will probably find something out of the keynote to talk about this week, too. I am eager to hear how the two of you dissect this because my guess is it's going to be a very different set of angles than what you and I just went through here. I am certain it will be a very we'll come in from a completely different angle. Yeah. Fun stuff. Thanks for hanging out with us, folks. Thanks for checking out our sponsors, of course. You can find them at MacEekab.com sponsors. Of course, PAVPN.com, MGG and Bare Bones.com. Thanks to Cash Fly for providing all the bandwidth to get the show from us to you. And thanks to all of you for listening. Nine hundred ninety nine episodes, man. Congratulations. I know. Thank you. It actually does mean a lot. It really does. It really does. It's kind of amazing. Yeah. Jeff, do you have three words of advice to share with our friends before we say goodbye to the three digits? I do, in fact. Don't get caught. Made. Later. That was just more fun than should be allowed by law. That was great. Thank you so much. What a blast. We are still in pre-show here just just to remind you that what we say is still being broadcast to folks. So we're not in pre-show. We're in post-show. Yeah, I knew you knew what I meant. Yeah, I know what you meant. Yeah. Oh, that was that was a lot of fun. OK, since we're in post-show, I feel OK, bringing this up now. When they started talking about double tap and saying, so when when you're when you're doing one thing with one hand and the other hand isn't free and I was already waiting for the 12 year old jokes to to go out on social. Did they go out on social? I was I was in our I was in our discord room, which is we certainly all have soft, morick senses of humor. But by and large, we stay focused by and large, you know, yeah. You know, I was just watching my own personal mastodon stream for that. Yeah. And by the time the keynote was over and I closed my iPad so I could grab something deep before we started recording. Yeah, I hadn't seen anything yet, much to my surprise. Well, you know, it's out there. Hunt for it and you can find it. It is the Internet after all. It has to be out there already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I do now have to produce this show with with great haste because it is being released today, which is weird for us. Normally I have like three days to get it out, but not today. Well, I'm glad that I minimized the opportunities for edits for you. Oh, yeah, we're not editing. There's no about. I'm going to listen back and make sure that it's OK. But otherwise, no, no, there's no there's no editing. So excellent. Yeah. Yeah. The protected crown has eliminated my wrist activating series that on the ultra the protected crown. Is that what we're saying there? If so, that's great. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I guess that is. Yeah, that's an ultra thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of right handed people with Apple Watches that flipped their their watches and put them in left handed mode. Absolutely. And where that's not left handed mode. That is correct mode. And the the I'm putting my watch on to demonstrate here. But I have done this almost since day one. So, you know, this is my watch. You can see that the crown is over here. And that's because I like to be able to use the crown with my thumb. Well, I can still see the screen. That totally makes sense. I can hit these buttons with my fingers while still seeing the screen. If the crown's over here, it like I wind up, I don't know, it's it's the wrong place for it because, you know, my fingers, my hand works this way. This finger is longer than this thumb. And so everything's where it should be. Yeah. And that makes sense. Yeah. As someone who's left handed. Yeah. And until I had an Apple Watch, every watch that I had was designed as a right handed watch. Sure. I I always had the crown on what on the correct side, on the correct side. And so when I got an Apple Watch, I thought, wait, this is the first time I've had a watch where I can set it up where where it's the same as what all the the weird ratings are doing. Yeah. Right. And so I did that just because for the first time in my life, I could. Yeah. Right. Of course. Realistically, I'm thinking that I would probably be more efficient with the the crown and the button if I flipped it back. Yes. Right. Right. Right. But just the fact that I can do something that I was never able to do before. I can get that. Use my watch that way. I get that. I totally get that. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Fun stuff. I like this. This was. Yeah. This is awesome. Yeah. You know, Dave, I love that. Pilot Pete, we just finished the episode. We are in post-show now, but I just got a text from Pete. It's interesting because I'm in I'm in my podcasting focus mode, right? Which means I don't get texts from anyone except Pete, who I do this show with Paul Kent, who I do giggab with and Shannon Jean, of course. So so yeah, it's it's fascinating that I can get text from basically one person right now. And so, hey, Pete. Yeah. Hey, Pete. Yeah. Isn't it cool that even after all these years, we are still in a place where we can get excited about announcements like this? I love it. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's the reason I still do this show. It's candidly, right?  Like, I know the show is not about me. It's about everybody who listens, right? Like that I figured out a long time ago. But I like, if I wasn't excited about the tech, why would I? I mean, no one would want to listen to me. I wouldn't think. I agree.  No, in general. In general. Yeah. Yeah. And as I was watching comments on social media, as the keynote was happening and I'm seeing some people and they're like so excited about whatever's being announced, whatever's happening. But then I'm seeing tons of comments from people that are bagging on it on the whole keynote, the announcements. And I'm thinking if this isn't making you happy and it's making you so unhappy that you feel compelled and justified to act like this publicly, maybe you shouldn't be involved in this. Just don't do it. Just don't do it. Like, don't watch the keynote. Read a press release later and then decide if the product is for you or not. Right. Right. And and if it's not for you, that's OK. It's OK. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think I think we. A lot of people understandably so forget that like Apple used to be the underdog. When we started doing this show, Apple was belagered by many people. Right. Right. That was the definition. You know, if you looked up belagered in the dictionary, it just had the Apple logo. That was it. But yeah. You know, it was like these products on giving the money back to the shareholders. Right. Right. Exactly. Like there was a time where it was like that would have been the right thing to do from, you know, financially responsible CEO. But Steve Jobs was like, no, we're going to do this. And he was he was right. He did it with the team. I mean, it wasn't just him, but it certainly. I don't know that it would have happened without him. So but Apple's products were by by nature of their presence in the market, not for everyone.  I was on a Mac voices with Chuck Joiner, Allison Sheridan, I believe Maria Langer, I believe, was there. And Dan, poor, Hottie was there as well. Dan was either in college still or fresh out. But I think he was in college. He was writing for Mac World as well and talented writer, like, you know, absolutely deserve to be there. And we were talking about, you know, Max and stuff. And Chuck asked Dan, he says, hey, so is, you know, how many people on campus have Macs? And of course, Chuck was looking at it through the lens that we all were looking at it at that time. Like, oh, yeah, you know, it's Apple's the underdog. Like, how difficult is it to use a Mac on campus? And Dan heard it through his lens of a, you know, late teen, 20-something college student. And he was like, oh, yeah, well, I mean, certainly there are some people on on campus with Windows machines. But yeah, by and large, everybody has a Mac and it's it's fine. You know, it's it's the Windows people are able to get by. And like, you could have heard a wonderful answer. You could have heard a pin drop because the three of us that were there were like stumbling about how to like process what he just said. And I forget if it was me or Chuck that chimed in next. It was like, wait, say that again. Did you mean to say that you can get by using a Mac on campus? Like, or are you saying that Macs are the most popular computer on campus? He's like, no, obviously, Mac laptops are the ones that that most people have. And again, we were speechless again, processing this.  Yeah, you know, yeah. And now this is the world we live in. Obviously, you know, this this, but that was the moment. If I was smarter and I'm and I'm not, I would have bought a lot more Apple stock that day, right? Because it should have been obvious to me, wait a minute, the switch has flipped. And and I didn't. But, you know, the day that it really clicked for me, that that the switch had flipped and it wasn't just an anomaly.  And not because specifically because you're using Windows, but because it was weird to see something that wasn't a Mac in the coffee shop.  And then I had the little epiphany because at that point, I realized the transition had happened, but it had been this gradual and subtle thing. And as I looked around, it was a sea of Apple logos. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Crazy. And we we live through all of it. We live through all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Cool. All right. Well, now I really do need to go because I got to process this thing. Thanks for hanging out with us, everybody. I'm going to start saying goodbye first to the audio streams. So I audio stream by audio streams. There goes the second one. All right. And now we will say goodbye to all the video stream simultaneously. Thanks for hanging out. Pete and I will be back on Friday morning to do Mac. He kept a thousand at about 10 a.m. Eastern. I hope I did OK sitting in for Pete. I think it was this was great. It was a lot of fun.  All right. Bye video stream.


Hi everyone, so I will not be speaking today, but these three gentlemen will be and I Invite Tristan Tristan to explain. What's the global idea of this? I might have oh Okay, so the idea of this panel. We did one at the last summit was to get International people in the one room and share ideas about user groups around the world What I was hoping to do this time was Well, I firstly identify the countries that we have here. We've got we've got the link to the old one from November Yeah, at the top there. Can we pull that up for a minute? Oh, yeah, sure Okay So what we did last time was I think we had 19 countries represented I've walked around the room and asked people about what was unique and interesting about Their user group or their country and we had some quite interesting answers and what we try to do with this is feed this back into the wiki so that We can help more user groups pop up in more countries around the world so we What we wanted to do this time I guess is is ask each of the represented countries two questions first question is what's the best thing that's happened in your user group in the last six months and The second question is probably what's the worst thing that's happened in your user group in the last six months So are we getting a few more up there? So I'd like to see some more pop up there. Otherwise, I'm gonna come around and walk around the room and ask all of you So that's how that's what that's what we had last time We had quite a few so we need to beat that this time so We've got Someone here from Network issues Australia. I love it mate China, okay, so hungry. Do we have any more countries represented here? US America Spain US China China. We've got a good China up there. I think Philippines Indonesia Italy doing pretty well so far US Brazil US India Italy US China US and we've got any more countries in here speak up now Japan Vietnam That's it Gentlemen who just walked in oh Vietnam is a double. Yeah, we have it twice We're asking people what country they came from the gentleman that just walked in It's just about to sit down there with a red shirt right in the middle there. Yes you so Russia Okay, so And you in the back do you see your country here?  Japan, okay, so you're already in okay, so the best thing that's happened I'm gonna I'm gonna kick it off the best thing that's happened in our user group in the last six months Would be growth, I think we had a bit of a growth spur So now I'm the moderator So I get to interrupt you because you spoke quite a bit and you distribute a thing. Sorry. I Want okay, sorry now Following up. Could you say what's the worst thing that happened in your user group the user group you know? Hello, everyone, my name is Saajid. I'm one of the organizer for open stack India user group Thank you everyone everyone for joining us right here. So definitely we have a very big traction in India So we in an in an year time. I know Tristan has been you know, here's the Aptira and Tristan have supported our open stack India user group from day one And it's been like you know at this point of time. We have a strong 1,700 member in just one and a half here That's huge and we have like conducted around 40 40 meetup across the cities and It's definitely getting a lot of traction across India across cities across universities and I'm engaged with a lot of government agencies where we are trying to write some kind of reference architecture that could be implemented on the government agencies and Universities so definitely there's a lot of good things with that We are gonna talk about and the best part of this community is like the collaboration that we have seen across the Universities and the corporates where we do a lot of thought sharing and we do a lot of you know lot of joint meetups where It's more like a very good engagement where I see a good thought leadership coming and this is a very innovative project and The there are certain things that we would be Touching upon like what are the challenges that we have faced definitely conducting 40 meetups in two years It that's a big number every every two months We conduct one meetup and the frequency has been grown up now There are huge demands or recently one of the one of the biggest achievement that we had is like we two months back we conducted open stack India day and It was it was very good event and we had Tom five field who joined us from the foundation And we have been getting a lot of support from corporates and foundation those who make up You know those who travel all the way or to our places and they they support us in all the best way So so that would be the best thing that happened. Yeah, that's right That's right. We are getting you know, do you have any pain point or I think that's not you're gonna cover on the second part So I would just you know, I would give him some chance to speak about the best part Then we'll go to okay. Let's start with the best part then. All right Hi, everyone. So I'm I'm true from Vietnam and we have a little community there We started about a year about 300 people now and it's constantly growing up. So it's okay We the good thing about our community is we got a good attention from the government and then and from other associations, so it's been going quite well We we got some of the best thing that we've done is we expand the awareness about this and Seems like it is becoming a choice for you know, government cloud open cloud, especially and you know As a result this time we have about 20 people coming here From two cities and three ministries and they all here to witness how open sign has been maturing and and I think that That's been a good thing Should I talk about the Bad thing as well the bad thing. Okay. Okay. You can open up. Yeah, so we can go back So some of the bed some was a not good thing that happened to our community is that You know why open stack has a very good reputation everyone is Exciting about that actually We start seeing cloud stack getting into Fraction in Vietnam in the community and and They they don't they don't have an actual community in Vietnam But they also throwing our messages and saying that you know, it's much easier to do cloud stack than open stack So we actually have one customer not customer, but one of our members actually moving the cloud stack way so and and we try to you know Bring up the level of awareness about actually clouds that opens like whatever it open is work but the Interoperability between the cloud be important for the government. So we need to Pay some attention there. All right. So when it comes to speaking about the bad thing I wouldn't say those are the bad things rather. I would say it's The challenge that we need to challenge is right. So looking from very optimistic That's what we grew from two to seventeen hundred, right? So that gives us a lot of You know optimistic, you know way of thinking so what I would say like currently the challenges that we face all these years We're basically we were trying to come up with some kind of governance model that we need and this such a scaling You know user group where we are very much vendor. We are very Vendor agnostic so we don't care about we don't actually Encourage the vendor getting into the meetup and trying to control that so we need to have very strong governance model and and and maybe I'm very rude to the vendors, but at the end of the day all that I want is a Is the to actually Send a very broad messaging across the community that we all are together when it comes to technology and evangelists You know doing evangelism for this particular technology and I can only get more and more developer more and more Contributors being more focused on if it is very straightforward to deal rather than coming through you know the protocols and the policies So definitely this is you have a very positive view of the problem Yeah, which is which is good because a problem needs solving we have you know tackle this kind of problem day day in and out So when I say 40 meetups, that's a big number and every every time we conduct a meetup initially it was up to you Who are supporting you know For the events and everything it even till today they support but and then we move to vendor location And then I've been very particular about okay. These are the topics that you're not gonna talk and these are the timelines We strict very very clear over there. Okay. These are the timeline. These are the topics So definitely been a sponsor. We give the preference to the vendor Okay, speak about the technology, but I don't encourage any sales talk because this is still in a developer Right, right, right. I appreciate the kind of effort that vendors have you know They are the person those who have bring the more and more momentum in this technology So I appreciate that but when it comes to I think we will see the same kind of balance in other groups I'm sure what about you. So yeah, I mean growth is certainly a thing I think The best thing that's happened in the last I think it's probably a little bit more than six months maybe the last 12 months is The vendors have become more involved when we started nearly two and a half years ago I would ring up certain large organizations that are like Very significant members of the foundation and say do you want to come and sponsor this event or come and speak at this event It's about open stack and they go what's open stack? No idea at all What's happened lately though over the last few months, so it's like it's it's like It's evolved into a state where now I have to try and balance the interests between the vendors so that we're not Completely Absorbed by any particular vendor. I mean we have you know, everyone wants to sponsor every event They all want to pay for everything they want to put their signs up all over the place Which is which is great, but we've got to try and keep it very level and not make it sort of a keep it very Equal or egalitarian or something that's that's that's been it's been nice to have that and it's kind of like a Good thing and a bad thing too. It's kind of really difficult to manage It's had to become quite a politician to sort of say hey This is you know, you can't get up there and just spruke this stuff and plus the place with signs and and make it your own sort of Event too strongly, so it's about open stack. It's not about company X That that would be what you're struggling with What's the good? Yeah The other thing I guess with the within The biggest challenge has been Communications between the groups around that around the country, which is probably something that Is felt in India as well that the the mechanism we have at the moment Is using meetup.com which is again still it's just not designed for for distributed Groups around the place or communications easily easy communications between groups And I think some of the work that that Steph and Martin have done on the portal Were you guys gonna show us a look at that today or oh? No, okay So Okay, so that that's me done. So can I ask? Someone from one of the other user groups around the world to answer the questions That would be Sean Yeah, but it's yeah, it's internationalization So hi, I'm Sean. I run the San Francisco Bay Area, California United States meetup I took over for you and mellor from Citrix and who took over from McKinney and Jesse that's the guys that helped start OpenStack back in the day So the biggest problem we have is just well, so I start off the biggest problem that the easiest thing has been that There's a lot of speakers around so That's not good to be nearly as easy for a lot of meetups to find speakers. So I guess that could be one of my easiest Benefits and the hardest thing I think for others Sometimes but yeah, but also a lot of speakers really busy as well So if I don't schedule it in a Good time slot.  So the The biggest problem I've had is as I've gotten more and more involved with OpenStack and getting it More and more involved in my company of keeping the schedule going. So that's I really Especially with the hackathon because we generally hold three different styles of meetups. I think we're on about I think we're on about 115 for the last year So it's gotten been kind of a crazy pace but people like Randy and bias and other Boris from Rantis have been helping out been helping Hold different styles and meetups who we've been very participatory So that but the the hackathon is really The baby that I want to Shepherd the most and there's that's where we try to build new developers new contributors So that's that's my biggest problem. It's just been trying to be as consistent as possible So we we actually hold it every two weeks. I Drag myself up there and even if I'm tired. I stay sometimes until I've stayed there till one in the morning with people Get either writing code or working on a blueprint or do whatever has to be done So it's it's important just to be consistent and when people have time they show up and Myself or Colin McManara there, so You mentioned something the other day to me about Did the problem you have with too many speakers about a speaker matrix of some sort or a schedule? Is that something we could look at? Putting into the portal so the idea that Sean had the other day was All these people around the place that that are available to speak about things be that in person or over Google Hangout or Skype or whatever trying to trying to Get a list of all these people and their availability and what their topics are and have a sort of a matrix map that we can all use to to get these guys online often and And get them speaking to events around the world. Would that be useful to to people? Yeah so We just started a new user group at CMU Pittsburgh a couple weeks ago But the only reason that I was able to start that and they got me and Colin McManara because I drug him along somewhat unwillingly but Was because I knew some of the people and I have a relationship with the university So I was able to do that but that's gonna be really difficult for anybody else. It doesn't have an academic relations Pipeline like we do so we have a really strong relationship. I also flew out to Minneapolis to the Because I know Kyle Messery really well and he runs that meet-up. We kind of helped him get it started a few years ago So not everyone has these deep contacts. I've been doing this for a while so Way we can really kickstart a lot of other people or a lot of other user groups is to promote Speakers to be virtual so I popped in when we were doing a lot of the discussions about core it was Rob Hirschfeld made a big effort to travel to a lot of different places on the East East Eastern seaboard But I made a big effort to pop in but I was doing it virtual So I was able to contribute some to the discussion. So makes a big difference the more we can do that hopefully I'm using that the portal will be I think very helpful and start evangelizing that I think it's really important for Developing the develop not only that the people that are Helping to drive Companies and they're generally the ones that are a little bit more interested in doing this But also driving developers to do this because it's an important skill to be able to speak in public so that you Feel a little less intimidated When you need to get up at the design summit and speak about your blueprint that you've worked on So anyway in this regard, I would like to hear from People from countries who are not native English speakers. Oh here or Here yeah, and then someone else from China maybe Okay Hi, my name is Gergay. We run the Hungarian user group together with Barton and What was our best? experience We had a absolutely new user group member we just just joined us and We were trying Trying to explain him. What is what is open source community about and he didn't seem to get it at all and and we basically tried everything and Then a guy show up a redhead guy from Arizona Chris and he just well done. He's a holiday and so they open a sex sign and He he joined into the group Probably his wife was not so happy about this. I guess she imagined a much more romantic holiday in Budapest, but We actually had a great fun with him and And a new member He was okay now. I get it now. I see what is what is this community about? Yes, yes, absolutely The worst experience I can't really say any Bad experiences, but if I really need to say anything in our last meet-up We had so many people that The room wasn't not enough so some people had to stand because the our user group is booming and We have quite a lot of members I mean relatively we are a small country, but we have a lot of members and the only difficult thing is to find a place to to organize meet-ups because We all overgrown on this Well, thank you Someone from China. Yes I'd like to show some experience from China and we had a meet-up in Beijing in October Before the meet-up I was worried about people Whether they come in or not, but when I actually we use the same system like this summit To sell the tickets for we have a one-day Activities we sell tickets and It's the biggest price for me over 300 people wants the ticket, but we have Small room we we don't have the enough place to hold these people. So we put out their videos and and Slides on the website This is the good sides for the situation of meet-up and the activities of OpenStack in China and Actually in the states In in this during the summit I talked to some people and I found that maybe in China We should learn to some Group user groups from other areas and countries In China this meet-up mainly about the the general Things about OpenStack. Maybe in the future we need to talk about more technical things and to some discussions of the Special dedicated projects or something. Okay, it's my sharing anyone else from Hi, this is Chesok from Korea Though our community I don't know Facebook is a certain 100 members The best thing we have 130 13 1313 Who is right? So we did So we started at the rate 2010 our community so I I see the some like a page So first time there's few people knows about OpenStack and people just Joining community to reason what's the open-stack about the second phase the people know about The OpenStack and they're working for the company who are interested in OpenStack So they're coming to community because they need to and this year service page is there Right now a bunch of people who are interested in community itself So enjoying being in community and interacting each other So it's not about their company working on OpenStack So with those last number of members We were able to build some of government's Organization inside our community because there's very lots of people who are willing to do that and enjoying being together And as your community so that was the best thing we happened and Because of that I think there is some similar point in in previously Since we have like two meet-ups per month and some of the activities and participating like open source conference event as your community step and and we moved from and vendor support and company support and we have problem of Binding rooms and mid-ups and no sustained our old community Because we are not getting any support and we are we don't want to getting any support from vendors So we are we are actively discussing inside community and what to do and I mean we can have we can write our books In as a committee name and we can have a little bit training So we are having lots of ideas how we There's such an hour committee in his way very helpful way and having more the People engaging it to commit and being out like opens our committee side. So I guess that's okay Thank you. I see a pattern of people having success a lot of people Maybe is there anyone here with a group that is starting with very few people? That would be you or oh in the back So you're next okay Well, I was holding my hand up even before you said that the small okay, but yes, it is relatively small I guess compared to the sizes here. It's about 160 people by the way, I'm my name is Nikolai. I'm from the OpenStack user group in Stockholm So I started it last year On my own and basically it's been slowly and steadily growing Which is really good and on the on the good side and maybe an advice that I can give to others who have issues finding room I I'm in close contact with the Technical University that I collaborate with and they're always glad to host this kind of events and they usually have big rooms and all On the less good side, I would like to emphasize once again It's been brought up earlier that it's sometimes hard to get speakers and what it resulted in It's it's on one hand. I got a couple of times like too much vendor specific speakers and Very untechnical which was very annoying to a technical bunch And which resulted in having fewer meetups because I decided okay I will only have a meetup when I can guarantee that I'll have a quality speaker and that is not so Yeah, if anyone has a plan how to like to schedule speakers to share speakers, they'll be totally amazing Yeah, thanks I live in Kenya So we have about a five to ten person user group. I'm mostly doing it just as an exercise and getting more capacity built out in terms of a Technology and getting people to be able to create things for academic purposes, but also for business purposes One of the things I've noticed is I've been working with the Polish user group. I don't anybody here from Poland Okay, so what's great is that the time zones are the same So I think one of the things that we've been trying to do is to do more regular hangouts that are shifted And what would be pretty cool? Would be to start setting up more of a regular user group that's on a hangout That would be supported by the OpenStack Foundation That way these groups in smaller areas could communicate with each other as a regular thing and that can be done remotely I don't think there can be one global one because we're in a 24-hour world, but maybe one for Europe in Africa one for Asia one for the Americas and then It's hard to coordinate those things. So that would be something I think that also could be done at a global level Who have we not heard from so far can we scroll up there and have a look at the You know One of one of the pain that we always had since since basically we Established the project was that we had a very hard time discovering activities of user groups around the world and The reason why we're investing in these new user group portal is because we would like to have one single feed of Events and automatically exposed to anybody that is interested so that you can see that there is going to be a lot at an event in Canberra and Who happen that happens to be in the same time zone of Japan or similar compatible with Japan? So people from Japan will be able to either ask Tristan to enable a video stream audio video stream or Automatically Tristan will know about it and we will have a way to share all of that Without having to create an extra layer of complexity. I mean the hack that the Polish team Has been forced to invent for all the European time zones meetings Will probably will hopefully be removed the need for that very soon. Hopefully I Definitely looking for people to help. I mean we have we have a project. I mean the groups Development effort for the portal is based on Drupal. It's available on a public git repository We will have the leaders are in this room the leaders of this project And they will they're already working with the Drupal community to to get them involved because we will need to develop tools to import information from meetup.com from Google communities Other tools in the near future too So we have about five minutes left no eight minutes left Do you want to keep going on these presentations or should we maybe? Ask questions and try to find answers Maybe after I won I get a chance to talk about friends Yeah Since the last summit We we have fed it the French community because we we were only Organized meetup and now we have made a few working group with a team a team of 12 12 people so we are working on a group for events And since the last month we have a program of workshops small small workshops so we have Pierre a guy with he has met Two weeks ago workshops around around it. So we try to make more more more more technical things We have federated a team around translation Who worked to to to translate completely all the documentation? We have sugar working on communication to to make flyers They were with with Stefano in the open world forum, but without communication paper. So we are working on this and And we try to formalize this because it's it's not a really it's a user group by only link by By by mailing list, but no no for no formal user group So we are thinking to to to make a real real organization in the in the next month and what would be the bad What's the problem? Do you have any problem? Oh, we had a few problem like Overgroup I think too too much people to find place because when when we made a Meetup we have at the beginning 20 30 people it was easy, but At the last meetups we were 150 so it's it's sometimes difficult to and we won't we all the time take a new place So it's it's not easy to find place where in Paris because in Paris Place with 150 Little bit difficult. So we we have a partnership with universities Inside Paris, so it's good place on it's good to to make partnerships with university because lots of student Also, it's good. It's really good to it was a Solution to to keep it simple for meetups. So our university seems to be Yes, sir. Thank you. Also in Italy. We started. I don't know how many we are Stefan I'll probably know the number more than one other than it for sure and I have to say two things the first is that we already Used to be connected into town when we do the the meetup Milan and Rome one is physically is the first base and the second is the slave connecting via streaming and we One time is Milan and one time is wrong the first. Okay, and we change and the second things is that a lot of people ask to us To come to the meetup to learn To start So the last we had was I was surprised that was like a school because a lot of people stay there to to know to have a section to understand Which way to install and and so on And I know that I'm not the market inside and not on the communication side I know that our marketing say that we have a lot of requests for the next to have the same Solution to install and and so on and I agree that one of the most value is to have people that come for different experience Nation to talk and with it Okay, so for the few minutes we have does anyone have Questions specific questions regarding user groups Okay, no, so Maybe someone had as an answer regarding your training or workshops, maybe Sean you you would like to comment on that When nobody raised their hand for another question, so I'm going I know you have the answer for that. Okay, so You're certainly involved with training as well, but more specific But I don't speak today All right. Anyway, okay, so he's not speaking so a Few of us have gotten together it started around the user groups Partially because we were getting consistent consistently the same questions from different personas different types of people and A few of us said well in the effort of automating things Let's start writing this down and start creating some Some documentation around the common questions these people have and it evolved into us creating Training documentation, so it is a project. It's up on GitHub like anything else is all the rest of the open-stack docs are We're sprinting towards having our first book go out, which would be for the persona of an associate which is kind of a beginner and We were planning on releasing books on for operator developer and DevOps We likely will do some other variations as well in the future Because we want to make it more theory focused Or include more theory right now. It's very specific on mostly installation very little theory So but the intention anyway that short answer or the short idea behind this is that it's meant to be Used by the user groups all over all the user groups as a possible syllabus that Hopefully these groups will find useful So when people show up with variety of levels experience and knowledge and intent they can either self be self-taught or Be instructor taught by if there's somebody who's willing to mentor them at the user groups, so Excellent. Yeah, so to conclude because we're Running against the time But every every panelist I have one minute to for a conclusion I was going to say wisdom if we've got any what any other countries that we didn't cover That might be too short unless you want to relinquish your conclusion time No, no to get to come in there later and yeah, please please please Add to this help us out with this because it's it's on your feedback We can improve it for more user groups and new user groups coming. So I Can see my seller from Brazil down there Please add your add your information to that a thorough Please help us out and feed it back. Whatever you can into this into this At this point of time while closing I would just like to thank all the vendors back in India those who supported all our initiative, right? And to answer come of some of the problems that all the user group are facing is like speaker and The location I would just say that we have the same initial and today we have results So you need to collaborate and you need to communicate very clearly what's in it for them, you know When they host this kind of meetup. So today we are running out of time So I wouldn't talk much more but in case you have any problem how to get this started how to resolve Issues we would be right outside this conference room. Just stop me and ask me. I'll be happy to assist you further. Thank you very much Yeah, and just a just a one point that I want to make is that for developing countries like Vietnam It's actually the awareness about what's happening with the in the world, you know about the cloud and so on is There's a delay So by the time when they heard about opens that probably all the vendors are then telling them that oh, you know We are the one who doing and we are the one who implementing open stack So so I think and I'm worried that you know developing countries would face this problem if our user group don't have a way to actually cover that At the moment, so I just raised that point to see whether you can do something about that Thank you very much for this wonderful journey a round of applause for the pun out