Since we're out here in my class at 6.30, I'd like to call this meeting of the Parks and Migration Advisory Board to order. Can we start with the roll call? Yes. Erin Angel is not here. Scott Conner? Present. Thomas Davis is not here. Paige Lewis? Yes. Sam Libby? Here. Nicholas Medello? Here. And Councillor liaison, Sean McCall? Present. So far, do we do, we don't need to do minutes first? Do we order the organization first? Do it first. Awesome. Okay, well it is time to elect a new chair. So I would like to open nominations, and I share with everyone that I do not wish to continue as chairs. So appreciate people's support for the last couple of years, but I'm excited for someone new to help us roll. So if they're welcome to do any nominations. I'd like to nominate Nicholas if he's interested in being the board chair. Have you did a great job this past year? Thank you. Do I say anything? Yeah, yes. No! I think we probably need a second nomination. Thank you. Are there any other nominations? I couldn't inflict it on someone who's not here. I was also going to nominate you. All those in favor of next chair, please say hi. Hi. Hi. My phones? Great. So we also need a vice chair. So I'm going to be a nomination. I'll put up one. Okay. Do you want to nominate me? I'll nominate Sam. Are you? Well, nah, I'm just looking for a second. For us. Not a lot of people work as well. I'll second you. All those in favor? Hi. Awesome. Great. Thank you. Awesome. I'll switch seats with you. Oh, wow! This is my official. Yeah. They're my friends of the year. It's a ceremony of playing and music, or some sort of one. Moving on. Let's move on to approval of this month's agenda. Is there any changes to this month's agenda? So, request it. I'll move to approval of the agenda. Second? Second. All of this. Here? Hi. Hi. All right. On the top. That's all your pent-up motions page. That's okay, right? You said when you were reviewing. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Moving on to approval of previous month's minutes. Any request changes to previous month's minutes? And I realize that some of us haven't reviewed this. I didn't know I was supposed to be here. It was January, so that's all. Oh, right. No, no. So, when it said not present. Oh, yeah. And we didn't expect you to be here. No, okay. I guess that's what I'm making sure of. So, it's not present. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any request changes? No. Okay. We have a motion to approve the last month's minutes. Yeah, I'll move to approve the minutes from December 11th. Okay. Second. All of this. All right. All righty. We've been right along. Do we have any color for that to be heard for today? No. Okay. Easy enough. Wow. We're flying through this. Okay. Next up is old business. And the old business on the agenda that I'll look at here is no old business. Correct. Is that correct? Okay. Fantastic. All right. Then moving on to the new business. We have plenty of options for this. So, first up is Park's proposed municipal code changes. You can be driving this. Yep. Awesome. Right. If I could really quickly just start this quick. I think it's one of the things that, you know, Jeff and I spent a lot of time trying to make sure that we are respecting this group's time and the value that we hopefully, you feel like you're adding to the process in the city. And this is one of the things too. When we got these going to council that really, we like to vet in front of this group. It really is an important piece for us. I appreciate you guys sitting through this a lot of stuff here. But again, I think you have represented the community that really helps us look ahead to see what we may be facing as we get up there. I appreciate your time on this type of items. So for those of you who don't know me, my name is Bryce Overing. I'm the senior person of the Space Ranger for the City of Longmont. What I've got for you today is about a dozen municipal code amendments that I'd like to make. So I'm ranging from no big deal to maybe a figure change, but nothing crazy, I promise. So if you have questions or want me to expound on why we came to this decision, happy to do so. I think the easiest way to read this will be through my council comment. So this is for chapter 13 of the municipal code, which is the both lands violations that we use for Rangers and horse. The first one is to modify the definition of battlecraft for aquatic nuisance species prevention. Right now the definition of battlecraft is a little updated and it doesn't quite meet what the state standard is for what needs an A&S inspection or what doesn't. So it's just cleaning up that language to make sure everyone's on the same page of does my watercraft need to be inspected or absent from inspection. So that's a pretty straightforward one. So right now I'm going to amend it to say battlecraft means any hand launched non motorized vessel that does not require an aquatic nuisance species inspection. For example, a paddle board, a kayak at the end. So the key words there are hand launched and non motorized. If you put a motor on anything that needs an inspection and if it's launched by a trailer that needs inspection. So if you're launching by hand, those that have motor don't need an inspection. Any further questions or clarifications on that one? Any motorized? I want your motor on. If you put a motor on your front door, and your front door has to be intact, it doesn't matter what. As soon as you put a motor on it, it falls into needs to be inspected to get that one. So I guess my other question is, so even though it's enclosed, it's like a sunfish, like a sailboat, that doesn't need an inspection. By the state's definition, if you're hand launching it and it doesn't have motor, I should say with sailboats it's a little different. So that's no longer like human powered. So like big sailboats we inspect those. The little sunfishes, if you had it so you could walk it down with the trailer yourself, you can launch it that way. You would back it up. I mean, you could, but you wouldn't like have it someplace around here. Why not go further on this? I thought that you showed in the screen. Why stop here? Is this a nuisance to rangers? Do you have to inspect about 1,000 boats in the air? It's more for public education and just to be in line with what the state requires, because right now it's a little gray on, I have my boat in Macintosh and I suppose to inspect it because it's inflatable. Just because it's inflatable doesn't mean it needs to be inspected. So just clearing up this language of what is a battlecraft, because a lot of our signers say battlecraft allowed, what is a battlecraft? Is it all on the same page? It looks like it's in line to the Covey rights. Everything should be, if you're committed to safe right to the counter rights, it's the same for long months. That's not a change up for everybody. What about a paddle boat? I mean, that one for you. Probably a paddle boat. That's human power. If you get launched by him, you're healthy. I'm just curious to see what we're going to see. I've only seen like a handful of those. They're kind of heavy. They're not super popular anymore. Everyone wants their inflatable stand-up paddle. Any further questions on that one? All good. All right, second one. So right now along my municipal code, we're headed through littering and dumping on public lands. Recently, David Bell and other members of this department approached about the positive human remains, the ashes on city property. We're trying to respectfully amend the littering and dumping rules to not to say basically you can't deposit your human remains on our property without calling said human remains trash. That's what we want to avoid. So this will cover the positive human ashes and solid wildlife cameras or engaging other activities that are partially addressed by this code. So it'll say you cannot deposit, leave, store, install, or vary refuse trash or litter or other items of personal property except deposit trash generated by activities within the park and designated trash receptacles. If it's full, you must remove it from public lands. So anything that's in italics is new language and anything with the line through it is worse than we're taking out. Did you consider just making a new item for this? Certainly possible. And I just wonder if you might get because it is a bit of an awkward mix.  And so I just wonder it might be any, I don't want to over complicate this, just having a storage of other items, new article may be easier. Storage of personal property or however we want to phrase it. Then it falls and it takes it right out of the trash. The trash conversation. That's it. It's a hard part. Just so this group knows, we've got a good group of people that make common sense stuff. When people have their family event and this is going on, we've never interfered with that. We may have a conversation after the fact. When people call beforehand, I do have to say our own rules and rights prohibit that under this. It's always an awkward conversation. Just so you know, I think respecting people will want to have that last time of the people in a park space, be it the families out there with the kids, like my kids are really playing and human remains are ashes, or the fields out there that's having a moment with me in the area. It's really an awkward conversation. So I think this is a, you know, why we want to try to clean it up and maybe that is the right way. It's easy enough to just say get in or put a new number beside it and say this is our deposit in our personal possessions. So you know, are you going to raise that question? Right. So I don't want grandma's ashes to be associated with trash. Well, and you've got other things there too.  So I think you could do like that. What's the policy now on geobactures? If we went by a letter of law, are you adding personal property to public lands? Yeah. Well, if there's public property, does anybody can do it? Right, because you're not asking to ever get it back. No. Right. That's right. You're donating your property to the public. Yeah, you can put a cigarette in so that it's a public donation. But I mean, really, I guess it's the addition of an item to a natural environment or built environment. We know they're all over in the parks, right? Yeah, of course. I don't want to be the reindeer that goes through and takes everybody's car away though. And there's always the, you know, ability to get a permit to do something that isn't specifically address by code or is in violation of code. And that's something that's addressed by these, by this proposed code update as well. That would, I think, pretty appropriately, clearly address geocaching. Does David have the authority to approve that? I think one of the things too that, you know, with making rules and rights, a lot of them have been pretty forceful things have not been a problem yet. Making a rule, regular placer, but once in the county, geocache became a new thing back then. A couple of, like, actually taking big boulders off the fronts of dams and hiding stuff under them. And they're putting, they're putting munition containers chained to trees. So it came up with to ask you, a clear container you can see through, you cannot disturb soil and stuff. So we are, I don't think we've seen those impacts yet. So maybe we let this one kind of go to see if it becomes a problem. But it's definitely hard things that, you know, the munitions container change a tree. It's like, what do we do with this? Who's going to be the person that opens it up? Right. So, I think the sport in and of itself has evolved, but people are making better common sense choices. And I don't think it's become a problem at this point yet. Yeah, but I mean, I've also encountered the bottom squad response.  That was a previous idea as well. But I think, yeah, it seems to be, I feel like it's a little less popular, you know, that there's so many other kind of like virtual and automated reality, but I'm sure like anything we can imagine will become a problem eventually on the park system. Is it fair to say there's a distinction between the definition of the code and the enforcement of the code too, right? Like, I have our discretion. I try to be more spirit of the rule than whatever the rule, and I have to follow whatever rule, but I have discretion on this is okay, this is not okay. Probably the same we try to apply common sense for cocaine. I don't want to be the one police taking all the all the fun into it. That's like what you are. That's like what you are. Are there times where it is okay though? And I mean, you said sometimes you have to do the letter and the law, but is there just times where it's okay to do things? Or things? Yeah. Well, I'm talking the geocache is pretty innocent thing, and I understand what you gave as examples, but I would think most people, they wanted to be small, they wanted to be somewhat hard to find and to penalize them for other people making bad choices, I just hate to do that. I'm going to go back to, we have really good ranges. I understand they have discretion. I think you could enforce the bad behavior and things that someone's doing, things I've seen in passenger people with shovels, they're moving rocks out there. So that falls under other parts that you should destroy and mutilate. You could probably write under that. I do think these guys are really great at having a conversation with people to say, this is going to stay probably away. And that helps that, sorry, speaking for you guys. Yeah, he's got a great group. I've seen a lot of people that always going to go with that black and white piece of it. And I think it would be a long line of people that really understand what we're trying to achieve to support our community to also protect those resources. So, because if obviously it has reserved damage, that's going to come up here in a second about kind of exceptions to the code that can be made under David's authority as the director and through a learning process for either commercial, special events, research, kind of things like that and kind of better clarifying that process and where I should talk about that. Do you feel like this is included in golf property? No. It isn't? It is. Not by the definition I go with both now? Is it it listed pretty clearly in the code on what the public lands are? You don't have I don't want I do so. That's the question. Should be in park screenways, nature areas. Yeah, it's defined in the municipal code. So, the specific areas that are called public lands are codified kind of includes golf courses. The human ashes is an issue involved too. That's why I asked. People do work for golf courses. People love the eight people. I do not love them, but it says community parks, nature areas, dog parks, off-street trails, greenways, breezeways, micropluses and preserves. Not golf. Not golf. So, you're saying No, I'm trying to get golf balls in public public lands. Right, yeah. So, proof check done one here again. Any concerns or recommendations to 9th Number 2 here? Sorry, I'm going to split trash and what we call disposal, storage, personal property and housing. So, I'm sorry, one more piece. Bryce talked about, you know, he has quick change. This has been a big conversation with groups. We have our attorney working this. Liz has been working with this. This is not just us making quick changes. So, we'll run that through. Liz and stuff. We should be supportive. So, number 3, people might freak out when they first started. So, we're going to actually remove 13.20.05012 which covers camping from Chapter 13. And then we're going to enforce camping under its definition in Chapter 10. So, basically, this is a recommendation from Liz, our attorney. She likes everything to be the same for just about everybody. So, as PD enforces Chapter 10 for camping, we're going to make it easier to understand. Having it in one place instead of two places makes it a lot confusing for her and everyone else. So, if we ever wanted to do camping again for a special occasion at Union, would that prohibit that from happening? I'm saying nothing should change instead of on the ticket we're writing 13 or right 10. That's earned. It's almost the same language exactly. That's why I was going to ask if there's a difference in practice that this creates or it just remains a duplicate reference? And it removes a barrier too. If the city wanted to revise the definition of camping and it exists in two places, and I have to reenact the code in two of the chapters. So, I just kind of remember this one. This is where really camping was in public lands and because of the public lands this gives our police safety officers that and that broader scope so it's camping on the golf course it can be covered down under 10. So, I want to make look scary first because people say, oh, you're going to be camping in public lands. We're just enforcing it under a different section so that was pretty straightforward. Any questions, concerns? I was going to suggest to bring to council that I might help with the presentation because initially two people getting what's already in there. In any sense. All right, number four. So, staff would like to amend <IP_ADDRESS> number 13 commercial use to better cover all activities that we are witnessing under public lands including both prices referring to commercial use, research use but basically allows them to apply for a permit for the product case by case business. Right now we don't have a really easy way for people to use these activities that are kind of great in the community code but it's being a nice, easy permit to do the things that we need to appropriate. What are some examples? You've had some people request some of them are things that the city has been interested in pursuing citizen science for instance David and I work together to allow a citizen science project in partnership with Trout at London that has a stream water quality sensor that is maintained by citizen scientists. Everything from that to commercial fly fish foot races to guided climbing and wearing a team there's currently not a clear answer to that or for the public when they're looking at our municipal code portal it doesn't tell them how to get a permit we have to use the public places permit system but that does not hide a sensible way to our code language that exists in the review process that already exists so that David doesn't have to create a one-off letter authorizing said special use on public lands it creates more objective criteria for that which seems fair and just more streamlined and efficient for staff and members of the public that are looking to do something really quick I think that again like the citizen science piece again I had to take that sort of in the spirit of the law and what I think a lot of my residents want to see people do this kind of work people want to see it this wasn't really clear that helps clarify that our use of public places has some pretty unique triggers so it has to be there's the amplified noise there has to be a sound number piece if you're setting up a table or a vending area and there's like only a lot of amplified music can I say that one on it you're signed bigger than a card table so these weird triggers they guide a fly fisherman would not trigger any of those a group of 25 people up there would not trigger any of those so I think that's what people want to do but I think Jeff has a good point on there is another system to with this do we have to go back to him every time then or make everything easier for you ok so as long so the fisherman that you talked about fly fisherman recreation does all of those agreements with those folks at Union Reservoir and it was some folks over at McIntosh as well that since we're already doing other applications it made sense so the thing triggers it a traffic control plan triggers it as well so like a foot raised it has to close intersections and stuff but it triggered a new OPP so what about you guys also see like Oversea Rogers Grove so every year I know some groups like the Long Island area and DIMS have kind of a picnic there and they have amplified news that goes through sitting so they're not just not signing up to use the part if they're being honest so and I don't I'm not picking on them but a lot of people do a reservation for a park shelter and they say it's just going to be my family and then the family brings a hundred of their friends which triggers something different so I have a related question to talk about this later after this you guys pumping out but it's about how the city coordinates all this science and research that's permitted on public lands and so like do you guys have a record of all of the individuals or institutions that have implemented research projects and do you know where they are and are you like monitoring them so are they appropriate do you get the results if people are doing studies or things that I don't know about but I would say with the two of you I mean I think there's two things that come to mind and like first response is we probably don't know everything that's going on because it has not been clearly required by code that you have any kind of authorization to do a more involved intensive research project that might disturb public lands when I looked at Boulder County City of Boulder or Collins other nearby ordinances I think that that regulation that they adopted is so that they can better understand who's out there what are they doing and also benefit from the you know the findings of these projects since they are in the public domain so this would help us better understand what's out there and benefit from it as as a natural resource manager however I think we do have quite a bit of knowledge of the projects that are being pursued by people that are being honest and are engaged and are looking to get permission before doing a project we have a small grants research grant program we actually put dollars out there to bring people in to do that so Jim Crook and that group and Daniela the ones that really are going to start a better job in cataloging that I bet there's probably I bet Dan probably has a file something on paper that was to really do a better job to see where these things are being up front with us we are really saying yes you can do this but we actually get access to your data and your information too that's the kind of trigger that I've always used this has to be this is a private entity it has to have a public good and that public good is us receiving that information if you don't already I think it would be great if you run a database that you know we're saying like what are all the projects I don't know for that you'll hear me oftentimes now with Slingin of June and Daniela's position where Dan was doing a lot of great work trying to get people doing research at baseline that depth wasn't quite there that's where my expectation for Daniel and Jim is that depth will not be there it also provides an mechanism to protect programs that have been going on for multiple decades in our national park this allows us to very clearly issue them a permit to formalize what they've been doing with letter authorization I believe from a former director so just making sure that we're both vetting things that have in the future and protecting these long-standing researchers and science partnerships that we've had in a way that benefits the people and the resources that I think I'd like to see the definition of an event that can affect people in definitions not in a code segment the definition of a special event is not limited to that number right now here also I can find is this a person using this term? yeah I think putting that in 1337 the definitions in 13 rather than here makes more sense than in personally about in like 25 like the biggest thing for me on this is the impact it's not really this group as much as our maintenance and timbers group if you don't have people doing some sort of notification if they don't even need a reservation at doing it you get an event and sometimes people all of a sudden they show up on Monday and the trash is overflowing and we get complaints meaning really is this an operational piece to help us do a better job of managing our parts we use also the need to reserve I also came from that and then I was similar to or more liberal I guess than the restrictions from surrounding agencies they might have a lower threshold a city boulder boulder county for commas but I believe it mirrors that requirement for the shelter reservation system so again not trying to put a barrier for people but trying to show our parks and make sure that we're managing the uses of getting out there there's no fee for this so it's not like they're reserving shelves but they're coming out and they know they're going to go to Mackintosh and put up a tent that we can try to think about how we manage that is there a fee for small commercial activities like if you're hosting a yoga class at Thompson Park they should be going through some of the comments just moving out to the front cleaning up that way cleaning up this way all right great thanks let's keep moving we propose to amend 13.20.050 818 to allow for model rockets to be launched in a designated area after receiving a permit for recreation this area would be the baseball field at Sandstone Ranch Longmont Fire has already approved this projectiles rule to allow for this very specific activity to happen in this very specific area with a permit for recreation and approval of Longmont Fire this is one where we're trying not to be the total no fun people could buy in First Scotia is one of the ones that people are calling asking for that permit and having daughters that are engineers and totally supporting kids and science and STEM this permit and it was something that I thought was significant enough that I've been saying no and I just like that bad guy in this but I talked to Jeff and Jeff feels like there are places that we could do it safely and he'd be the one that does it and fire feels the same way so it's just a peace riding feel comfortable just even giving that without working with fire and recreation no rockets thank you it is done but it's not approved right we definitely addition stones arrows javelins yep so on the on the safety side I'm just curious to you about the so we're saying where but is it also a when other limitations where it's where fire be a part of the permit to be there certainly one more to do it yeah number but this is like I don't think well well rockets is playing a game involved in objects if there's no reason not to you can make it 19 and that is designated areas sufficient or should I be defined somewhere like should public know from the code that it's sandstone and we were to hand the right to allow it somewhere else in the future that we for sure don't do that because that is a project now so we're shouldn't that any possibility or something like that yeah but that's and I'll tell you Sean the reason I know that is because recreation was doing our tree program on sandstone and Dan at the time said hey no you're not supposed to be doing that we all learn lessons the game was of the county and like open space your backyard or some place you can do your back there there's no projectiles in the city limits you know it's a tough one the same thing I mean split that up since it's so unique making it online because that's where you get a little confusing because but yeah and it would just be thrown in with the rockets so suffering itself might help that too you can do the rocket with a permit you can't do the others very that's a good catch you can amendment 6 we propose to amend our current fishing model section of chapter 13 to list the specific rules that are posted at our individual parks but understand the different parts of the rules regarding fishing for example for Union Reservoir we're proposing introducing that size limit on the wall to help protect the fishery we would also want to list out the special rules over here in Eisenwald and the special rules that are at Golden Ponds because they're posted at those parks but they're not at one centralized online location so unless you go to Golden Ponds and we're trying to do the right thing they get already going to get out there and it's posted you can't find that information online so I think it does requires to keep up on top of the rules and what it's like whenever you do this it adds more work here but I think it's helpful to the public that they don't have to show up and say oh I can't do it here then drive the next bus say I can't do it here then hopefully we'll also like to further restrict the use of traps and nets to help preserve fish populations so what it would look like is Fish and Wildlife in the 19 then each individual area that has specific special fishing rules and then we adopt all the parks and wallet rules and regulations regarding fishing which are adopted in our entirety as a minimum by CPOP My question is are there any potential conflicts between the Colorado rules and if so which has a pre-empty other So if these are approved I submit all of these special rules that we have to CVW and they'll start listing it in their brochure so they will defer to our judgment on what rules we want to apply to our lakes is the CVW lake obviously they have the final say but one like ours we decide hey at Union we don't want you to use bait anymore so they'll honor wherever we would like to do they'll kind of default to the land owners on this it's kind of a constitutional supremacy thing though too we cannot say you can take more wall-eyed in the state we will respect that we can't open things up and say you can fish for this is the base line CPOP is the base line and they they publish them in Spanish and in English each year and they provide us as high of a stack of brochures as we can distribute to people and they're pretty good about making sure that they're accurate any other questions from the group another big thing that this does is it makes it where I can enforce CVW law under pre-fishing multiple rods makes it a nice easy way to enforce that two questions things like bag limits and things like that is there a time bound part of that too or is that per day per day there's a bag and possessions and possessions I have to like go to your house and look at your freezer possessions that's kind of outside of my room it's like it's sufficient another one was an image of 20 I think makes sense I would just maybe say that this seems to contradict what we just said which is that the city can supersede the state law this says we've adopted all the state laws here I think we should add except we're superseded by city law right right which makes sense in these areas or something like that yeah whatever that might be just to clarify that these are more restrictive than the state law these apply not the state law but the is there anything in here that says anything about where this will be posted specifically like we talked about putting it on the website but there's no amendment necessarily that calls it out right like I wouldn't think so you know now my plan is we're going to have to go heavy education for a very long time right with this just so people know what's going on like I'm not going to write it to get March 1st Thursday somewhere which is I'm not that mean but my plan was to we've got to get a signage at Union especially printing little hand out cards that I can give to all of this like here's the new bag limits we have a grace period until June 1st to learn this or whatever day we decide and go with education for a while and see if that works do you do you think the Fisher people at Union are going to be upset with these changes no I should have added somewhere else but we did a bunch of surveys where the world was super supportive especially the wallet fishing yeah I think as far as where to put it I think these are important things we put them on our website pulling up because our judge is very good about the fact that he expects people to go to the municipal code and read it we don't have to if you're using public lands as your responsibility and all the rules and regs my piece is just try to make it as easy for people to do the right things as possible and everywhere the people are fishing this is not supposed to be like I got you I want people to know what the right thing is and then do that I just want to be clear that that's the where the rules are being presented is separate from the actual amendments that are being placed here that's just separate yeah there's how there's any municipal code guideline about how many places have to go to where it's going to be our best judgment on where the people are going to see it where it makes no sense if anyone actually checks on the finances I'll give the fishermen some credit and they want to do the right thing they want to be educated on what's the bad end of the year they're going to use bait here for the most part there are critical goals and that CPW guy will once we do this they will start putting that into every lake will have a has a section in it got it any other questions in the can you move it so in minute seven we're going to create an exception in chapter 13 to allow certain e-bikes they can safely utilize the trail degree ways this is similar to language that I've used before that allows e-bikes on our trails whether we like or not e-bikes are there anyway so I guess we go technically we don't allow motorized vehicles on the trails right now is it e-bikes on the right so would you rather be in the safe manner how is that sir sir that's is there speed limit like clarification they have to move aside for pedestrians is there so right now speed limit is not in the municipal code I've told David speed limit is only as good as the radar I have shooting it still an indicator of this I will just tell this group that this is something that we have kind of avoided for a while. We've watched a lot of other organizations go through this process and how to manage it. And I think we just kind of learned from them a little bit too, but there's a lot to this. And this is one of the things I wanted to take from you, but this is what this group wants to spend more time on. Another transportation group has talked about this as well. Signage, but getting something in there so that, one, we're not just casually saying that, piece Jeff said, it's against the rule of the rights, but you go by as a ranger, then I'm not going to stop you after you fight. So we start here and say, we're going to allow these things, and then we start developing more robust peace on do we need to get rid of our rangers, do we need more rangers to do that?  And you're responsible for what happens, and there really is an unfortunate lot of what happens, and you are not operating safely, then you become responsible. And they have a lot of case law in their favor, but they're not reliable for anything. Exactly. Again, as a municipality, that's not what we're going to pull back at, too. We want to do the right thing, but again, we do have that, so it's going to come to the individuals and try to get one, make sure it's as safe as possible. So I'm happy to say this is one we could pull and make this a bigger conversation. Thank you. I mean, I just, and maybe you can commentate it by saying something in there. I just worry that it won't get revisited. Okay. And if it is included. Yeah, I agree. Code 42 and 13205-0, just one piece of the general public lands section, does discuss wheel, you know, wheel conveyances. They talk about bicycles for years, skateboards, roller skates, roller blades, other non-motorized vehicles, and requires them to yield to pedestrians and pedestrians and ride in a safe manner. So do you have some teeth and inability to take it or that? It's just like permitting a motorized cable. How that might be different. And under Colorado revised statute, I do believe that you'd like to not consider motorized vehicles if they're under a certain weight class and quite a lot of violence. Yeah. So it's revised, I think, in the last maybe five years. Did you guys know specifically about the classes? I was involved in this into the county of Blue American. And there was a lot of pressure on class one plus two plus three. Instead of not do plus three because of this up top speed of that. Like, it does require a pedal assist, but it's 28 hour per hour top speed. And that, I think we decided was just too fast for pressure finds past the county. And 20 would be really fast in the green way. Yeah. Unsafe. Unsafe fast, I think.  And I think that's a, well, this for your career, I think going into current council is something that, you know, may have the same questions and make sure that we Yeah, I'd be a place to be. Just by so long, I don't have any information on this. Generally, we eat the class structure because speed has nothing to do with, right? Like, generally.  Generally, they just like, well, a lot of people hate them because we're trying to cut through on green ways from one place to another. And so treat them the same way as a class three bucks. So it's your behavior in your overall speed, not the conveyance of that. Because when people buy the bikes, a lot of times, they don't know the whole class structure and how fast the top ones can go. And they're just buying it because it was username being fits here or sort of thing. So that's why it's, it's a little bit difficult. I think, yeah, in, you know, most of Colorado has gotten a little bit more away from the classes of bikes, sort of system two, because there's a lot of modifications. There's a whole bunch of things that go on. There are bikes going down hills and things like that, too. That's the guy who rides the motorized unicycle around. Nothing don't want him on the green way. Yeah, but there's a lot of oneness. There's people who use oneness at all over the place. So I guess you're going to need highway. He's, he has a lighter cycle on him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Survival in sticks must be very good. I think it should be 35. Oh, yeah. He's steering up with traffic. Yeah, yeah. A couple of stops. I think, again, I think this is the right group to start having that conversation. But I think this, so this group knows that we are aware of it is something we've been fortunate. I do think that, you know, my opinion is change over the years to start looking at equity and people that, you know, we have a pretty significant greenway system that is, you know, transportation oriented. A lot of people are using it to, you know, efficiently get to them from work or events and stuff. So I think that it's part of the time that we look at this. Yeah. And anecdotally, like, the farmers market bike valley, which a lot of people are coming off the greenway to get to, it used to be 1% electric bikes. It's like, maybe for some reason. Kids through elderly people. It's all over the place. So it's, there's no difference, right? It's calling it electric bike or bikes. And we just have to be like, those, those objects really, it's really what it is. It just like drives us crazy. It's like, if they are really becoming so mainstream, you can show that expectations of sort of safety and behavior are so mainstream. One more technical question on the language of the amendment here. It says designated roadways when the public use, but it's not specifying any of that here. Would that be part of the definitions or how do you see that finding out? Does that be something that would be close to elsewhere outside of the ordinance? Sorry. So it says here, designated roadways. Yeah. But, you know, So it's helpful to operate a wheel or track mode vehicle, except on designated roadways, but then to public use. Yeah. So what, how does the designated roadway? Yeah. Which one would you recommend? Is that specified here? What? No, it's just finding other parts of the code though. Where? It's a reference to like the rest of the roadway system. Like as we're saying, like cars are not allowed on the greenways, but they're allowed on designated roadways. Oh, I see. So again, I'll read is unlawful too. That's what our code starts out. I was reading this as the thing you were is this was restricting these types of vehicles to specific trails and greenways. But that's not the same at all. It's the opposite. Yeah. Right now, what this is saying, you cannot operate a wheel or track motor vehicle except for designated parking areas or designated programs. Yeah. I think designated roadways would be like the bike lane, regular roads, that sort of thing. But my intent is to allow e-bikes onto our trail system. Just right now. Every trail. With that exception. I think that's where we have to look at. I think as you talk about pressure flying, I think you guys as you look at the equity piece and a lot of our greenways are really a transportation core part. These kids being just schools or farmers markets. But we are going to have some pressure flying things with kind of those natural areas. And you want to think about that too. So it's a five year long greenway detours. Right. Pressure funds. Maybe there's a road that we want to limit. Limit the use on specific roadways that are not considered designated roadways. So is it an option for you to just pull this car and revisit it that move forward than the others? Yeah. I don't want to hold up all your stuff. Yeah. And it also sounds like a competition. We're going to have this inclusive provision to your program as soon as they want to begin to. It's big time. Yep. All right. Okay. So this is similar to what we talked about with the fishing regulations, but we would like to add to our water based recreation section to adopt all CPW voting rights to ensure safe operation of vessels on CLAWMOT waters. These regulations include we're not limited to use of life jackets, reckless operation, and registration requirements. So right now, if I wanted to write someone for a new life jacket, I have to get kind of weird and writing for violation of posted sign. I don't like doing that if I can avoid it because that's just kind of, you should have read the sign. You didn't do it. I like to be much more clear and concise of what I'm writing you for. So this allows you to adopt all color of parks and wildlife's voting rigs, which include life jackets, life jackets for kids, registration of your vessel, safe operation, overloaded water ground, all with CPW is already written. That's easy. Sorry I have a question. So we're inserting this text that is the CLAWMOT regulations, right? These three lines we're adding. These are three that I deem important enough to list in our municipal code. And there are others you've never seen CPW level, or at least you can see these three. Okay. I think it's good to have them. We could just refer to it, right? That's good to have them here. I agree with that. It's trying to say basically four adults. They have to have a PFD on the vessel for kids in the 13 and a half to be wearing it. And the adults have to have them. And then the third one was a little bit interested. It says all boats and vessels. So is that saying that anything you're on on the water? For example, the dorm with a motor. So is it required that you register paddle boards, canoes, kayaks, those things? You have to register your motorized ones. Actually, if you put a motor on your paddle board, some people do. So this is intended to refer to motorized vessels. I was just adding that somewhere. And part of that is because they motorized vessels are participating in the Innis program and your registration is how you feed into the Innis program. I think there's times I wouldn't know if I had to register with the state. I can just amend that and say all motorized. If you're trying to copy their words, I wouldn't amend them. If you've got some tips. There are a lot of people who can do that. They advise you to do that? Yeah. Just in case I find it, I can do it. You can do it. It's easier to find it. They're wise. Yeah. We have had a back flush this year. But some things still do. Good. What does it say to wear a PFD on a paddle board? You don't have to wear a PFD. You just have a flotation place. So by the state's definition of vessel, I'll have a word as a vessel. It says you have to have a wearable PFD. It was not what you just said. I thought A was a DASF. Each person in the vessel has to have a wearable PFD. You're thinking of a lifeguard. So it's a requirement for the class. The class 2, that's nice. So the very ones have to wear a wearable PFD. In addition to the person. Yeah. This will make my life a lot easier.  PFD's all day long. You can get a permit for this. Get a permit. Yeah. Or please. Or put it on the street. Put it on the street. All day long. And I was like, hey, I got an appointment. I don't even know what my profile is. OK. But I don't want my cell like there you go. We actually have a cell on that. I can go buy them. They've been there up at Macintosh during COVID, one guy so busy, Jeff did have a vendor out there. There's the standup out of the wards. He was really good. If people did not have one, he's actually giving you driver's license. Just so you can keep them kicked off the water. you forgot your life jacket in the garage just grab this one take it out there put it back when you're done I've been told that'll work great I've been told you won out of life jackets in three days so do you have ideas on junk I don't know I don't okay but I have a different question these changes we talked about tonight impact people using Dickens Park floating down the river those aren't classified as vessels by CW definition so they're not following it I can advise you have a life jacket I can advise you wear a helmet that I can't enforce a law that says that could we put out there at McIntosh a temporary serious about this some sort of temporary sort of kiosk sort of thing that actually maybe was a man but did you know allow for people we want people to use it we just don't want to use it wrong and then correctly we would like them to make sure that they have a have a life jacket especially bring kids to do this use it oh I forgot the kids need a life jacket I was okay just having it here and it's not going to work so what would something like that look like could be more like our e-bike rental type of thing a good fall in that category something Bryce has been kind of thinking that maybe between Jeff and Bryce it just seems like the more positive we make it the more like the people I would like to think the honor system would work there's no there's no other use oh yeah but I've known people that have taken city size after this yeah so they're like a challenge of staff and I was like are you anywhere you're a staff I honestly think the city should sell them like get some get some money and people would buy a city of life jackets you know you can get them random whatever but McIntosh was my staff so it'd be harder to do that it's going to be almost like the bike the scooter and I don't need to report that Jeff but the mate that time you're busy maybe this is shoulder season word you can't do it but once it gets busy there's I'm very Jeff can think of something other to get a a surface out there that's probably generates a revenue and then have the life jacket piece associated with that would be it I think having people out there at the beginning of the season just as an educational thing yep they got a lot better this year I would say we were probably at 30 to 40 compliance in early summer I didn't you were closer to 80 90% I think I got a lot better with our on water controls I got passed out of the time that happens I said we'll be in the phone please on that one we were out there we did go watch after I'm going to escort you to shore yeah that's not going to happen but how do you get around how do you get around I always keep on this question I am on the water back in town should someone call the cops just think don't send anyone else that's what that's really good to see I you didn't come time to see I was there where it was really windy and there was some really unsafe stuff happening I'm going to blow across the lake and you guys are out there rescuing people and telling them back but that's probably me getting very engaged that day yeah it was a couple of weekend days that I just got from all of the employees out I will put a plug into this group that's kind of pushed this and council for doing it just in the process right now I hired that third senior ranger so before you know price is so far but but rock is hard for him to come out but you know our 42 parts and 100 miles of trail the union rangers when they weren't busy at union are doing all those other things we now have Bryce will be the the parts in green light senior ranger and he'll have two two ranges out there so we'll have a lot more billion of books so to think about what he's pulling people off of macintosh there are people being blown all over union too and it was really tough to stop that so the union is terrible because it's just like there's nothing there oh it's like a bowl so we definitely have some better coverage but I'm not the other plug and I should be thinking about places open seven days a week sunrise the sunset three people are still not alive I think we did 162 rescues in 2022 goes down this year is the weather like really knocked out june's half our zone was gone we're still in the 60s for rescues all right any other considerations for this amendment let's keep on track okay so we're going to refuse a hazardous activity section is a catch-all for certain actions that are not covered by other ordinances these actions would include laying aircraft for operations and jumping from bridges so this leaves a lot of discretion to the ranger on how do we define what the hazardous activity but a hazard to the safety of a participant or other persons in accepted areas where such activities are specifically authorized what what are those those things with the parachute and the motor and they are fun yeah there are times where they have been landing on the soccer fields why soccer is going yeah almost like I don't be what's installed this year yeah that's kind of what inspired this yeah okay page I just wonder so this will say I mean I guess I could look at that what will it say exactly that these are we'll do that talk that script so it'd be unlawful to engage in any activity which constitutes a hazard to the safety of a participant or other persons these accepted areas were such activities that were specifically authorized and is that in a section that makes it clear I mean I'm just thinking I could be no I think he's saying it's open for interpretation something you can say right but not in this like such as this this this such as not I'm going to do this this this I mean it's probably fine but I just wonder you know hazard is such as it is and I'm just gonna go back to you know the jumping off the bridges was a big thing that you know we we had to try to figure out how to do that and it was really tough because it wasn't anything that would truly address at that time I've seen people using the bridges through tow off of which may not be on safety because they have equipment but the people underneath them I think for this it gives the Rangers out when they have that conversation and you gotta remember that if they do wear the ticket you can get to court and these guys have to feel pretty comfortable that they can articulate why they wrote something that was a hazard activity in front of a judge. Do these include drones? There's an existing code. It might be helpful but just some examples you know I believe that not limited to just so you know it's not like somebody out doing taekwondo or karate in the park or so you know you need to like it's amazing three things pretty much just like that yeah I probably wouldn't talk to him about that and you kind of stepped on it but I would have just let him do this thing because he was 100 yards from anyone else and not bothering anyone and not creating hazard but she elected to contact him there's some guys swordfighting I'm not going to talk to them today yeah well I thought like sharp swords but practicing some kind of sword fighting art seeing full armor full context and able like this is the standpoint of why I think just getting some examples of things that are clearly like we mean these things that are clearly a hazard right does is there anything related to the potential remedy or penalty for this that's my very last game okay all right well all about that number 10 um so we're going to introduce a union reservoir section to address some specific issues that we are witnessing at the lake these are maybe rules that are unwritten so unenforceable I'd like to get them written so we can enforce them that includes requiring that annual passes be permanently affixed to windshields this prevents sharing the passes and people swapping between guards and getting to their neighborhood that's not very difficult to do with the approach to you so we're going to require that your animal pass be permanently affixed to your windshield that's been the practice but it's just not written anywhere um also allows for no protecting in certain areas of union reservoirs provided that your holes are responsibly filled in um then it also adopts the long-standing ban on personal watercraft that's not written anywhere but I can tell you can't use your jet skis but there's nothing that I can point at let's see here it says you can't just let me just say that because I don't like weightless right but they don't think that a jet ski creates a weight it does which is why they've always been banned I'm just going to get into words but if you want a water ski you just have to paddle fast or you could already have a bit like trip um words allowed currently yes and I've had dozens of conversations with them and they understand what I'm saying right now they operate in a responsible manner they do everything they're supposed to they don't create a weight by the nature of their watercraft so like as long as you guys are doing what you're supposed to and I don't do any complaints and my boss doesn't tell me to do something about it by all of our rules you're fine but as soon as you start abusing it or doing things that are unsafe or I get a ton of complaints we're going to have to revisit yeah since I had that conversation with them two years ago I wish yeah no the guy who I see all the time with you guys is always good about it there's about four people that are doing it right now so yeah yeah it's like a week forward with a motor a hundred bit right here you don't see this person like but they just move here they have a little thing in their hand yeah they're very expensive looks heaps a lot of people from yeah so yeah that's my fear as soon as you start uh seeing these um start showing up at walmart where it's all over yeah then we might have to be before you again say what we wanted to yeah but right now they're not causing any issues my only question was the um but added text do you have below doesn't talk about uh one of the things that's in the notes but I don't think okay so you add language I would add the language so I do have a question about that sorry so you cannot remove or take anything from the public plan so if you find a gold the bloom out at uni reservoir you're really not allowed to take that as a property of the city so I'm not sure encouraging people to I can easily strike it just a question does it come up if you're trying to do it occasionally yeah that's the basis that I've used to prohibit that button rock I mean you're you're excavating um a natural setting and then whatever you find is either a natural you know artifact that can't be removed or it's something that I need to look into property and evidence of the police station because it's of value to someone who lost it but it is a common request like there's a lot of people that really really like that again I think it's excluded anywhere else in the parks I mean this is the first thing that'll be and then go yeah I think it's just been excluded yeah I think it's been excluded because you can't really dig up or take or anything so we just allow it if you try I just think if somebody let's say somebody uh you know lost a wedding ring there you have something so cool huh so I'm so cool yeah all the time I'm sure yeah things like that in the sand and whatnot uh then you have to that's it that would be a call to me hopefully and say can I get a permit to do this or can I go out and do this and do this yeah happen at McIntosh Lake this year yeah that's right yeah I think we're going to like snorkel and find a ring oh to find a ring not just like this that's yeah I'm thinking that being on the shore maybe in the sand in the area there let me find a ring in the hole yeah so what about it so it sounds like the consensus is just excluded do you any does anybody do like um heavy magnet like stuff in any of the water seem to be yeah now we have one for our own property retrieval needs but is that legal like the golden poms it's in a geocache I think for iterations permitted do you realize that every interviewee conversation with rangers happens at every this is why our drain's office looks these are like the ones where it's like yeah don't think so seems like yeah it seems like the consensus was just the permit in the okay so this one we would like to remove line 13.20.090 that currently allows overnight fishing at union if you have purchased the pass and are a holder of a fishing license um that's been the whole since I started here since we started doing operating hours and placing the gates and kicking everyone out you can no longer stay overnight so this is just for removing that right we only have one person say what it says here I can stay overnight well our operational hours are going to have to supersede this for now so you got to could we do special events though that would allow the voice house there was a camp fish yeah there's a special that indicate okay that's just removing if you hold the state fishing license you can otherwise say okay this is the last one staff would like to introduce a fine schedule for the violations within 13.20 this would create a clear ability to clearly understand what the consequences are for violating everything each other 13 basically right now if I write you a ticket and you say well how much is going to cost me up to the judge that conversation can go one or two ways sometimes if I can say it's no big deal this is a simple part violation it's going to be a hundred dollar fine that sometimes moves better for me people like to know what to expect um I hope is this keeps us out of the courts as much as possible I don't want to pack the courts with a whole bunch of dog out please tickets I don't want people to say get my dog out please it's on camera I'm going to pay $100 and move on with my life that's my hopes I'd prefer to not have you going into court when we have three three Rangers that's a fair pet really it's the Rangers and the courts that judge hasn't seen all these all these idiots yeah again the price they have a good example but you know um price is not coming from the kind system we had it set up we had that fine system that it was more of a certainty for the individual um it helped with the conversation but anything else you would add to that and um yeah I think people like to have transparency and and have had as knowledge of what is going to happen and I like as a ranger and public servant to be able to provide them that information so it's not this big scary unknown sometimes they're stick or shock depending on you know what county you're working for um the county you work for and very high fines um we're trying to find a middle ground that's effective but much more equitable apparently as Bryce said we write some of the summons it's a mandatory court appearance they have the right to a jury trial it's a fine of up to $500 and a certain number of days in jail uh at the discretion of the judge the like we had them going to jail fair parks violation is zero um but it's uh you know maybe not the tool for the job for most of these kind of petty offenses um that we are tasked with dealing with and sometimes you know we're educators first and foremost as rangers but a ticket is an educational tool whenever they notice fail their signage or outreach and everything else so we want to have the right tool for the job and a pay ticket is is generally a more favorite consequence we feel and I would say that a large sample size of of the public would agree with that as opposed to this big unknown if you're going to have a date with judge frick and he will decide what that fine amount is and telling someone that the potential consequence for this offense is jail time um dramatically escalates our contacts and you know we are well trained as rangers but we didn't get into this to you know be in adversarial dangerous interactions of people over frankly very petty behavior relations that we're trying to deal with so this is one step in that direction it's also been something that we have heard from the courts that um they want to deal with the kind of congestion of our tickets that that unfortunately sometimes occurs so trying to save the kind of higher order offenses that we deal with within public lands for that you know mandatory court and higher fine amount um but putting in a large amount of um offenses into this standardized hundred dollar two hundred dollar three hundred dollar fine structure one thing I add is we're not taking away anyone's right to go to court right if someone doesn't agree with that ticket they can say I want my time in front of the judge whereas right now you are you know required to take that time off from work or whatever it is to show up and say potentially yes I did this I take responsibility for it what is the dollar amount that I have to pay now that I've entered my guilt deeply um so we're trying to inconvenience people the appropriate amount for the behavioral change that we're trying to affect and as equitable or manner as possible that will be a tiered system if you get you know then is that great so for a vast majority of these chapter 13 violations of the hundred dollars reverse offense two hundred dollars for second offense and third and subsequent offenses a fine of three hundred dollars above two five hundred um and then we've included some of our higher level ones because we don't want destruction of property or fires and public lands to be just a hundred all fine so we accept this aside as higher level events and the fine amount is up to five hundred dollars so those are the specific ones that you pulled out and say these level violations under these codes have this uh I have a button right here you've seen a lot of you know like target shootings I guess so um less than I was hired three years ago um there is a lot just over the invisible line into the national forest um it's probably the most popular area to do recreational shading in northern golden county is johnny park area just outside button rock so you know this is we're hoping that this reflects the gravity of the defense the potential for damage to our watershed to public safety as well as the higher risk that we take on as rangers when we're contacting somebody when you see these attensives right you've got hunting firearms shooting or shooting things like that um that we're taking on and making those contacts that if someone walks away with a hundred dollars that fine after shooting to here in a park that I'm not just gonna do it again um so we're trying to address that um appropriately but yeah luckily we've been seeing less so that's let's see it's progress um but I definitely contact people of firearms up there the most people are you gonna walk with the firearm up there and uh you need to do not allow people to open carry their public lands you can conceal carry with the state all right with your concealed carry permit um or if you are a police officer in you know um and acting your duties but um we don't call out people to open carry firearms in our parks and public lands good I have two questions um first I think everything you guys have said makes sense I don't think the text that's in here makes us though in that I think the first like a to me is still the language around the judge imposing a fine not you guys imposing it you guys a ticket which is what we I think we should do um just clarifying that that's a discretionary fine for a ranger to impose is that that's the intent right no we don't have this I mean it's the judge is the authority this is just this is just giving some guidelines this is what the judge will charge so they still have to go to court and do all these things ideally what I've done in the past is you have two options you can either pay this fine before your court date or you show up on your court date if you do neither then it's a failure to appear we've got a whole lot of other issues so this is kind of the legal framework and then we'll have to work out the procedure ended with the prosecutor and the judge um currently on the back of your summons that that you would get from a ranger is the same summons you get from police officer there's information that says that 14 days hence you can call this number listed and discuss your summons and enter a plea and potentially we tell people if you might be able to resolve it at that time um I think often people have still been required to have mandatory agreements so this is laying the groundwork for what we'd help would be a quicker resolution to take it that's what we would get for a court regulation violation okay and it's the responsibility of the city and the police department to record first second third offenses that kind of stuff yeah it's all through records it's pretty easy okay and then for the more usually even if we miss it like in the field like I had no idea that price for you just take it just don't get you to court like yeah it says a hundred on your piece of paper but it's really too long because of this I say what they resolve in court and for the more serious offenses they would then have the option to look let me that final to have a go at that in a sense which is the current so currently defines the kind of violation section for all of chapter 13 to it would look like that second bracket so that's currently what the consequence of any whether it's a bounce house yeah or your dog athlete or your shoes and your firearm and gold coins it's all the same so we're trying to calibrate that to more sensible okay I'll use a system like this before and it worked really really well it kept everyone out of court for the most part as long as us as Rangers are writing good tickets you're able to stay out of court if you write a bad ticket then maybe you should go to court and defend the ticket but I'll speak to myself I'm good at if I'm going to write you a ticket it is 100% earn and I didn't go to court because everyone kind of shared a friend about that that was a really good ticket then you had a big smile but I'm I prefer to explain to you in the field hey here's what's right wrong here's what the rule is here's the penalty you have your options if you think I'm in the wrong if you don't deserve to take it please go before court really don't you really have that right if you want to plead guilty and just want to pay your hundred bucks to live off your life one final welcome to do more with one more additional question uh so you mentioned earlier about the the fine had came up with the $102 in the first it's a fence um mentioned that it was equitable have we done research into what fines you surrounding areas that would be are they on par I mean like are we are we the median yeah yeah so state law it um defines the fine structure for counties generally speaking so like Boulder County for instance or any any county ranger can only apply to get to $300 per fence um looking at like Jefferson County, Boulder County were probably a little bit lower fine amount for the first offense um yeah there are I think I was seeing in the $250 engine up but I think we're we're trying to find a baseline that covers that's the best fit for the majority of offenses and also recognizing you know our intent to be equitable and trying yeah trying to find in that that kind of lower order you know consequence for a lower order offense that makes sense and we can tell people to you know like you're lucky that you're talking to a city ranger not one of those new rangers across the line there it's only $100 versus 300 sometimes that makes it go I can put another plugin for these two again that started looking at different agencies stuff uh price and price code they're involved in closely with this color open space alliance they presented those things they're involved in all this training so these conversations are part of you know usually annual conversation about what agencies are doing and how they're trying to you know address some of these equity pieces how they're trying to do some of those higher level pieces so it not only that it's doing the research they're networking a lot all the time to make sure the worst kinds of consistent long-term range thank you for that any other comments on this number 12 here is there just an action that you are supposed to take next step yeah definitely read my mind so with this this feedback hopefully it was helpful absolutely to you um is there any anything we can do to support you as the as the parts recreation garage you've ordered as the usess this out further this is like well so far okay I just she has to say if you want a motion that you know that what I really really kind of heard is that that they are supportive of these with pulling the e-bikes and with some of the language we'll go back to the the changes some of the language changes the other ones and then anything that we go forward that doesn't reflect that would make that clear but I hope you would do is take this to council now with you know this is as presented to have in the way that they supported it then was that for the two of you work yeah as uh well we'll reference the minutes from the e-bikes the level detecting I think some greater definition of hazard activities a couple of things that we said the category story yeah I do too so I think I have an emotion that reaction so it would be a convoluted motion but yeah I want to entertain a motion that expresses your mind I just think that you know kind of as amended by you know with recommendations fight by the board that we would take that board I don't think we're opposed on that I would like for us to really appreciate your feedback and giving that another set of eyes on this and this is something that we've workshopped with two different attorneys over the last two years and it's nice to have some to interrogate that a bit and get a diversity of perspective on so we appreciate the feedback I'll make a motion to to to adopt the proposed municipal code changes as presented with the revisions and changes that okay all in favor all right thank you right thank you so I have to go like all of your time no it's great I mean you're the only guy you know so it's okay I mean are you getting some things here like this nation of meeting day and time and stuff like that I think I'm gonna let you guys uh I've got uh first day of class tomorrow uh with students so um oh yeah that should bring it okay I appreciate it I think that that's probably more important for your business then I'll be here but you tell me when I'm supposed to be here and I will be here so happy to be back on this uh this committee uh I can really do about this board right I want to see you guys successful uh so yeah I've brought my cards with me so I'll give you a couple of them to you guys if I if you too for sure anyone can claim them so yeah all right moving on with new business designation of meeting day and time so as for each each year we have to go through this this it should take a very little time yeah um are you okay with still meeting the second Monday at 6 30 if so I just need a motion is there a motion to keep the minute meeting day and time the same second Monday I have to make a motion thank you thank you to designate the meeting day and time of I'm proud to be the second Monday of the month at 6 30 thank you Scott okay do the second for that okay all right all dear all right look at this who's right there yeah oh this is one you can oh I'm sorry I just want to make sure yeah all right so location at parks building and and that doesn't mean you can't thank you thank you thank you throughout the year but this would be our primary location and that our posting would be done on the city website we also send out to a few city facilities but the official location would be the city website so I could have a motion on both of those yeah I'll make the designate the parks building on Sunset street as the official new location and continue posting project as the city website fiscal locations as previously approved see you do it yeah all in favor nice motion awesome great okay last Jeff anything else on that no last item on for new business is discussing the 2024 crab agenda calendar is there something in the packet for this no there wasn't I apologize but I do have something else and this is just more for conversation not necessarily that this is what you have to do yeah but they're the same thing but just wanted to be able to start out the conversation and I filled in some of the things that we've done historically during the year the one thing we haven't done for a while is have recreation staff come in and share things about aquatics and special events and would like to do that this year and and then at the very end I had some other suggestions that you might consider if you don't have other things again you can spread or this you know just I have made some notes on things and I was hoping that we could have discussion on several of the things like you know what are we going to do about the maintenance on the current reps that are you know what do we need to do for sort of the future of the ice mobility program you know what are the thoughts around centennial and cooled you know just the sort of result of not having new facilities on the horizon so I don't know if that fits in with what you have kind of sketched out I think it potentially could but I think that might be you know kind of an ongoing conversation I don't know what the plan is to our council to get us to that councilor recording that that's but that's something that saves money I agree I think we're going to just like lay out all those different topics as soon as possible to see where we're out of them although I guess some of them you're like tracking closely and can't do much about is the problem without just things passing right but I think it's it's also good to some of our budgeting items though you know we're going to cut the budget season if we want any recommendations about identifying those so that you all understand what issues we're dealing with I think is very important and we can we can start that conversation in February I proposed the ice rink needs but we can I think that's how much Jessica is talking about as part of that like what large recreation needs basically I mean and honestly this is just like how do we sustain what we have and not go backwards somewhat similar to the capital improvement projects conversation though right I mean it's maintenance focus yeah but generally we don't get into that level of of conversation right general see a bigger higher level kind of thing sure I think this is more about somewhat vision at least for these functions recreation in particular for the city for the next at least three years I'd also like to propose communications we like how how we talked about like the limits we talked about I mean of course the year in frustrated it was like this residents don't know you know and so there was a whole other conversation about the website as a much bigger thing but I think you know just communications in a whole there's a policy or way we communicate on how we can help possibly impact communication is I guess just you know my a couple things again I did mention I think it's a there's a new web page design I've followed tripping on that group because oh yeah credit forward so maybe as we do those updates maybe I can have that someone in that team come and help me get information directly from you to the pieces of another group of others called along my indicators that I think is going to do a good job of helping there's some things about showing what our goals are and again some of those goals for me it's challenging because we started doing this in 2008 2000 so a lot of stuff before we started these indicators so I think going back and really showing what we've done because I think we're on the margins now which gets harder to achieve so I think maybe have a branch comment if you'd like to hear about the long line indicators now we're we're doing something useful to somebody would you agree and that's kind of a working progress right but reporting back to you so I was also thinking about using engage long line better I can across that this is participation stuff I found and that's still like the direction so he's going and engaging we could get some parts of our things on there where people are having questions or want to you want to get feedback on people that the indications there's like already a city platform where I just don't use it I think a couple of other things one I didn't see did a great job actually but I didn't see the storm partnership that's sort of the development of vision so I just want to I mean stay up to speed down that to be good when would be good to like plug it in as a specific topic well she would be doing her end of year and update is that that piece there and I think the other thing was that if there's key pieces I think that was this more slowly because that it won't be a one-time conversation it's just kind of that as we make progress is one of the things that Taylor is committed to showing the world and then the other things I could write down was the sort of worst health work it but you're on the open space if I don't know when I can't keep track of the timing the reauthorization of that open space so that's going to be 30 now be that far out being the outcome that's not upcoming no there's a reason I thought it was yeah the reason that I think for yeah 34 for us is that ability to have and play something allows us to to rebond and do things other too so even the close you get the hard years for bond because you can do those closer too so it's something I think that members of you can share that they would like to get something moving sooner than later I think this group would like to start talking about I think we would like to share thoughts on that too so whenever it's appropriate I'd like to do so I'll look up how to do that and then you had the recreation master plan on here which is the other side okay I remember from last this past year was the capital of Britain 7 I think that is earlier in the discussion in this schedule which is good I thought we talked about the role like it's too late to either right yes I'm on now yeah it's a market on my calendar two waters that you must like yes when is it yeah it was like often usually we the system closes the end of April 1st part of May right yeah thank you any other I noticed here that on February it's just from the calendar is that continuation of this discussion okay okay we don't need to actually formally adopt this calendar up front it's just more of an understanding so we all kind of yeah and I think the I would just say the facility needs would I would probably move to March I will not be here at the February meeting we'll be all right to budget price yeah what's that are you doing on Tuesday nights yeah well we can have it Ben can cover that but I no I can be good for you either yeah so we should have our budget recommendations by April is what he had said and we should be talking about it I think if we cover and make a decision in March you're good I think that the key is how you're going to communicate that to to council and and one of the things that the city manager did with the senior services advisory board last year is he actually came to one of the meetings and that might be something that maybe at the April meeting we invite him to come and he hears what he hears what you all want to recommend based on what happens in March sounds great let's put it on the scale make it happen yeah yeah just things we have to really be prepared right yeah in the March meeting we have to have consensus um there's something about 8 and 5 in here I guess we just handle that as part of that that's yeah Stephanie is willing to show up I think most meetings right and give updates on that so if you like a more formal presentation we'll go through here but I think you'll be surprised by the interview right I hope I'm not surprised but the next group projects right it all comes in like they all work through that process okay and I really think one of the things the board is going to want to talk about is we got all these new parts out there making sure that timber and operations has enough money to take care of what we just invested yeah anything else on here there'll be an opportunity to raise agenda items in the future oh absolutely yeah yeah come up during the year that we'll plug in as well sure sure the only thing I thought of that you could probably just do in discussion but maybe worth showing is like long-term trails plan there's been I've heard a lot of things like Steve mentioned things in meetings or he mentioned things about like you some day want to have a trail to terry lake and do something out there like I think it's really interesting to know that the city has this long-term vision of that I think it's embedded somewhere on subpage 77 of some master plan but it's a really cool vision to put out there okay to be supportive of or suggest you know prioritization of that uh the public doesn't really know about I think that's one piece is too that we we talked about the e-bikes strategy I think transportation has some of those as we look at some of those you know long-mont to lion sort of pieces too that's probably on their vision plan as well that we get that sort of you know us collaborating yeah we don't know we don't know about you there all over it yeah we have a coordination with come on to your board in September yeah that's the theme of that idea um all right there's nothing else that we can move on uh discussing I mentioned the packet updates and any any uh questions about the packet updates stop I have I have two quickly um dry creek synthetic yields there's references to the meeting is there a date on Wednesday it's on 6 30 it's posted on the website on the dry creek page um and it will it's at alton middle school and it will discuss it's an informal lighting that will be provided installed with you it's also um we have a project manager coming with the Isaac Lawton project for every project and he's going to speak directly to us letting him and then um we'll have several people there for whatever questions we can well it's neat to see this will district is helpful about having meetings not during the election so uh cool yeah we'll we'll also pass it to the spokesman my other question was uh dry creek trail number one there's a reference to uh meeting on january third was there any progress which is working there's it's not helpful that there is a resolution to still construct the trail without having to move the trail um but it does not but it's more David I don't know if you want to add anything it will be completed we'll be set up you're saying page is lifetime I was going to ask the old ender thing to review something that's all going forward council was supportive yes yeah and just think about that's great very quick movement on that it's good to ask that David wants to make a great job um I the lind inventory map topic has been the same for I think a year now and the updates um I would be having help on that first of all but I'll but also if we should give an update from them on I was looking just yesterday I was kind of the name of the trail at sandstone there's no word to find that unless it's an open or closed trail so I think it's if we're not doing let's take it off the the updates but we are doing it maybe it's a good update it's as well as piece of that has so many different groups that have different interests and ideas what that map should look like and who's taking the lead on it and what we need to get done first to answer some of those basic questions to what you know our public safety group wants as far as the information we're addressing in mile marks on trails today it does block down but it's one thing that I'd like to keep moving forward on so lessons are either be dropped or you'll have something I said that's good step did you want to talk about anything you're doing with that one or I didn't hear the question the public public lands map that we've had we've had a like monthly update for nine months the same two sentences and we haven't updated right I didn't know if it was a day in those yes pieces that you know there's just a lot of people that are working a trail really doesn't have different names for example I was trying to find out whether the greenway ends at golden ponds and the lincoln's gulch greenway starts there and there's not you're in sandstone is the trail from the top of the hill down to the visitor center have a name for other reasons but there's no map for sandstone even like there's no map of the site of sandstone it's just something that we don't do a lot of in the parks I actually have like local maps of the park and I was looking on some of the outside paths even today because I had council members saying they were being lost on our trails in town so I was trying to see if there's something out there that's better if your group has anything they recommend for people trying to bike around the community there are a lot there are tons of houses and that's the two it's yeah it's keeping boulder county has one that we've worked with them given our data they they do that and they update all their communities within the county but how did that and I didn't think I had everything either so yeah there there doesn't seem to really feel like there's a good one that someone could just have their phone on and you would right follow the map that you could use it would be great so what's nice about it is that my last comment I promised is that if the city puts that data out there all of those companies like strut on google will take that in and make that part of their maps yeah the city publishes it properly so like it's not your job to make a city of Longmont trail routing app that'd be crazy right but because there's no data it's coming from public guesswork basically just point out what's out there what's available and so if you were able to put data out that shows these are the trails these are allowed uses this is the surface that'll all get ran into all these apps add no charge to you at some point yeah so yeah so there's even like things like on strut on it they there's a lot of private people who created like the Longmont loop and so it's like there's a little extension and number we have this thing when we have you know our public outreach you know tables or whatever like oh if you want to follow Longmont loop write this one down go on to strut about go and find it and then you could put it in and then it would root you around you know but do the Longmont loop but there's no really great way of doing that or sometimes we used to have QR codes you can scan and switch you back over to that but it's uh but really it would be cool if the city created all of those so it doesn't look like it's owned by you know Chris Burke this root and you don't know how it's ever being maintained or that's actually the real roots or it goes through these panels or yeah so yeah talking on it on our team and I didn't understand where you were going with all of this but by the way maybe it's big and there's a group that's being put together to really take a holistic look at wayfinding in the city on these trails um but she's got some great ideas and where she's come from lots of different means and methods to really improve that experience is also to get us the information who's using it and how many people are using it so oh yeah it's a part of one of her big efforts was coming here and so I'll talk to her about this for my team okay any others I just had one uh for under far street it says that there's for 2024 planning over 300 trees in the reserve my only question is is this uh more less than pvc years I think that's right we're on the same number right now yeah that's too big what we we do but I'll double check this anyway yeah just because I remember it's been hard to give them it yeah it's it's been hard and they go fast yeah as I said I feel like I've noticed in the whole time where I live a lot of trees were cut down this year for different reasons um like more than previous years and they not all of them were brown and I don't think all of them have been are being reclaimed and some of them I asked the city about it and they said some that's because of new spacing guidelines they have right but some people have asked about is this tree going to be replaced or are they going to grind that stuff I think that's a timing and sequencing and contracts thing right right that we cannot put on our I'll talk to you about how we can maybe help that because I do that's a question I get a lot as well so there's a way that we don't have to keep repeating as a easy place for people it's one of the descriptions that Jeff had out there so that's good topic is like how does forestry that ask you that question just because Jeff just asked me to you know they get it really the first group you can be new spacing things it could just be a place that we've had trees and they just don't do well there via soil or irrigation um some of those spots where you get you know snow plows throwing salt up on those areas so if it's a tree that is our inventory that meets our standard we will put it back into inventory somewhere that may not be the same spot can I ask you sure yeah okay so out of curiosity just in those years years ago we expanded uh pipe road right and I had it the bike lane that's there and we took out like eight trees or something that was there and that was cacophony of people from um what's the feedback since that's been done oh that's a little question I don't know I have not got so like I have never heard I've never got any since no yeah that it all of a sudden so much louder because those eight trees are so no I have not heard anything okay and if I wouldn't answer that yeah no I'd be able to do a jr in june uh yeah that's uh two to seven yeah it's it was these trees those trees they're about to go build much more parts there so exactly other problems yeah um but yeah it was going to be like chaos well in zoom because right yeah yeah she makes that I could check with you yeah so uh items from staff so I'll say um oligarchy bridge um then we have slated it did start construction today so there's areas around there that trail that's blocked off right now and it'll be out with the middle it's a pedestrian by civil bridge that's all I have okay I don't question about the meeting let's have them with a thompson park meeting that was great and happened in central school it wasn't in the city calendar this one's not either we're just going to check with it as a way to get maybe new website will resolve that but I'll have to ask yeah I think it's they're on the websites that you guys maintain a little sub pages about that projects right the procrastinating team fiber club is there procrastinating but not this meeting so yeah I'd be nice to have on the calendar most of the items from the board that haven't been ready to discuss okay I'll have one it was a good note I have two new employees to start today and both of them said great things about uh they uh Mackintosh like you know there's just a lake up in Longmont you can go to for free and you can go paddle boarding and they're like I'm like oh so yeah so what what do you think about that well we always like follow it up with like grabbing up a year in town like okay well he's just getting some on down uh we'll get just some out so I was like yeah we're using our public right that's my jacket yeah exactly so thank you okay uh with that anyone want to make a motion to adjourn sure I'll move you during the second I'll second all those in favor all right


That ends our Trash or Treasure review for the church.    And I was dreading watching it again for this.  Today, as I was preparing the chili that we're gonna eat after this shoot, I was watching it as I was cutting up all the vegetables to see if I missed something. No, I didn't miss anything.


Back in 1912, when hardly anyone smoked cigarettes, lung cancer was like a museum curiosity, extremely rare. But in the next few decades, rose dramatically around the world, about 15-fold. But they had already nailed it back in 1912. By mid-century, the evidence linking lung cancer and tobacco was considered overwhelming. Because who says the tobacco industry's own research scientist in an internal memo? We now know that senior scientists and executives within the cigarette industry knew about the cancer risk of smoking at least as early as the 1940s. But publicly, they said things like, yeah, sure there are statistics associating lung cancer and cigarettes, but there are statistics associating lung cancer with all sorts of things, so there's no proof. What was the government saying? Smoke luckies. I mean, who wouldn't want to give their throat a vacation, not a single case of throat irritation?  Maybe in Flint, Michigan. And if you do get irritated and no problem, the doctor can write you a prescription for cigarettes. This is an ad from the Journal of the American Medical Association. After all, don't smoke is advice hard for patients to swallow. It reminds me of the recent survey of doctors that found the number one reason doctors don't prescribe heart-healthy diets was their perception that patients fear being deprived of all the junk they're eating. After all, Philip Morris reminded us, we want to keep our patients happy. To make a radical change in habit may do harm.  You don't want to harm your patients.  The tobacco industry gave medical journals big bucks to run ads like these. Not a problem, though. Philip Morris claims come from completely reliable sources based on studies conducted by recognized authorities published in leading medical journals. Even kindly offering to send free packs of cigarettes to doctors so they can test them out themselves. So join us at the next AMA convention. What did the American Medical Association have to say for itself? Like most other medical journals, they accepted tobacco ads. We have yet to see an autopsy with a single lesion that had a Marlboro label on it. No lung tumor has ever been found with a little tag attached, saying, made in the tobacco fields of North Carolina. Case closed. In fact, even after the Surgeon's General report came out, the American Medical Association, American Cancer Society, and Congress still dragged their feet. The government was still subsidizing tobacco, like our tax dollars subsidized the sugar and meat industries today. The AMA actually went on record refusing to endorse the Surgeon General's report. Could it have been because they were just handed $10 million from the tobacco industry? Today the money is coming from big food. The American Academy of Family Physicians has accepted large sums of money from Coca-Cola to fund patient education on obesity prevention. I wonder what that pamphlet's going to say. Who is the number one partner listed on Coca-Cola's website? The American College of Cardiology. Just as it would have been hazardous to your health to take the medical professions advice on your smoking habits in the 50s, it may be hazardous to your health today to take the medical professions advice on your eating habits.