I want to thank everyone for joining a little joint session between weeds and diseases and I guess our topic today is more going to be focusing on what are some maybe some disease issues you're thinking that post-harvest or immediately after harvesting the field and also some of those weed control decisions and issues that might be might be on everybody's minds or getting questions at the very least. So I think for the next hour or so we're going to touch on some of the key issues that are coming into our desk at the moment and how we have this split up is we're going to have Sam go first talking about some SCN and then I will follow him but before I follow him he'll handle all of his questions at the time as he has to get back to big iron and then batting cleanup is going to be Joe today so that's kind of how it's going to be set up. So with that I'm I guess I'm going to start getting Sam slides up and running here and Sam you can you can kick it off for us. Thanks for joining everyone so in kind of my world which is the broadleaf crops we we think about soybeans and maybe sunflowers in particular is kind of the later season crops that can still have diseases and so if you have questions about any of that or anything else too feel free to feel free to ask me but I thought I would share with you what most or hopefully all the county offices got in the mail with soybean sampling stuff and so some of you are really familiar with soybean cyst and some of you it's probably relatively new but I thought it'd be prudent for me to explain what the sampling program was all about and why it's important. So I have a few slides of the things that we got to start off though with soybean cyst. There's a few things to keep in mind and it's really it's really why we keep thinking about it and talking about it. It really is the top yield limiting pest and soybeans and the most recent data actually suggests that in the US there's about a billion and a half dollars lost every year to SCN and it's been expanding in our area in the last 15 to 20 years. It's a parasitic worm and so it lives in the soil and use soil sample to really figure out if you've got it and how much of it you have. Importantly it infects soybeans and dry beans but really in our area no other crops a couple weeds maybe but really the crops we worry about are soybeans primarily and dry beans secondarily and like I mentioned it's invasive and it's actively expanding in the area and I'll show you some maps of where it is here in a little bit. It's soil borne and it moves by anything that moves soil so for most of its life cycle it's microscopic so it's not like going to go on you know it's not going to hike the Appalachian Trail right? This thing just moves when wind blows it floodwaters move it equipment moves it that sort of thing. It likes high pH and it likes it dry and it tends to like it better warm so in the last couple years we've seen some really high levels and often one of the things that is maybe most sinister about this is that you don't see above ground symptoms until you maybe take a 15 to 30 percent yield hit in the area so when it shows up in a growers field it's very unlikely they're going to notice this for a few soybean cycles and that's where soil sampling is really most powerful because you can detect it before you're getting those huge yield hits. So Andrew if you could flip so I sent or Amy, Amy Thapa in our office and I sent packets to each county office with three different things and there were some soybean cyst nematode publications which I'm going to kind of walk you through there were soil sampling bags and then there were some instruction sheets and so this SCN publication I'm just going to go through because I want you to be able to use it as a resource quickly and you know give it to growers if you like it's eight pages and we just finished this in the spring one of the postdocs that was working for Gui Ping Yan who's her nematologist in plant pathology and I put this together and then there's a few others in our group that were helpful on this so Andrew why don't you flip that page so the first couple pages here are devoted to symptoms and signs and I think that the thing that is really important when you talk to growers about SCN and you tell them you can go look for it you can find this in some times of the year and really mid-August to maybe this first week of September or so second week maybe you can see white cream colored cysts but if you look at the lower two pictures lower left hand corner two pictures there's a nodule in each of those photos the nodule is like Jupiter it's gigantic compared to the cysts and the cysts are the little white cream colored ones the nodules are the big brown ones so just growers will often get confused when you see images like this or you see soil it's with cysts it's really really small lots of times they need light or a magnifying glass the other thing I want to point out is the upper right hand corner at the end of the season the cysts turn brown and they are almost impossible to see so that that's starting right now and it's going to only get browner and so even at this point in the season I really struggle to find them because they're all changing color they just look like the soil basically and then they fall off the roots and so it's almost impossible why don't you go ahead and flip that Andrew so the next couple pages are devoted to sampling the sampling strategy and then what's an hg type I'm not going to get into the hg type but sampling strategy is really important so you want to have them sample at the end of the season and that's why you have new bags right now and and just I forgot to mention this the soybean council is supporting this program and so all the sample fees are paid by for the soybean council the growers don't incur any cost at all here but there's two reasons to sample and it's a elaborated on this but the first is if you if you don't know if you've got it especially if you're outside the southeast corner of the state you're sampling to try to find it for the first time and in that in that search you want to go where you think you might you might get soil introduced to the field so if you look at that graphic on the left hand page number three talks about the areas where you're most likely to see SCN show up first and it's all related to how soil moves into a field so a field entrance soil is going to be brought in on equipment a low spot flood water might bring it in or geese will come in on geese in our area shelter belts are super important SCN is really small and dusty and light blows with soil if you get a snirt storm you're going to have SCN and the ditches are on the shelter belts but the other reason to sample is to figure out if you know you've got it already the other reason is that you want to figure out how much of it you have it's the the egg levels is what we measure and I'll show you in a second but it's the only way we can really help a grower figure out if their management tools are working if they go into a field and they've got a resistant variety or whatever and their egg levels are sky high they need to switch it up but if the egg levels are dropping they need to keep doing what they're doing and so those are the two reasons to find it if it's emerging in your area or to really help the growers understand if their tools are working the right hand side of this is about HG types I'm not going to get into it the biggest message here is that SCN it's a parasitic worm and like most other pathogens it can overcome genetic resistance it can form races think strains right that's happening and there's questions about it and it talks about this if you have any questions about it I'd be happy to talk to you anytime about it but that's just a little information to try to get people started Andrew why don't you flip that this is about the sampling program and detection so this these maps here and that histogram there with the the data the bars that is what's been happening happening with the sampling program since 2013 and it's really been this sampling program that has showed us the growers the soybean council everyone where SCN is in the state and this is part of the reason it's important and so the way you would read this is you've got all these colored dots on the first map and that's related to egg levels so it goes from zero to 20 000 plus and then the color coded dots are coordinated with the histogram the bar chart beneath so like if you look at the last year the top little area of 2021 is a it goes red I'm having trouble seeing it I think it goes red yellow blue green gray those are all related to the number of samples that have those respective egg levels okay and then this so if you just look at those two for a second we have maybe half to two thirds of the samples that have come in are black and that's negative there hasn't been any eggs in those but the rest are positive and then it goes up from very low level detections all the way up to super high and for reference most universities that have been dealing with SCN for long times like Iowa State or Purdue and Indiana they'd say at 10 000 egg levels or higher you're going to have significant yield loss on your best resistant soybeans and in that level for us is the yellow and the red but even if you don't even if you have a low level you have to manage it and then the easiest thing maybe for folks to see is this this heat map on the bottom and so you can see the southeast corner of the state to some degree the east central part of the state we're kind of getting smoked with SCN it's really high levels and and again you can take yield loss at any level but the higher you get the more likely you're going to get it and so all of these data points I think there's almost 5000 have come from this sampling program and it's from growers and consultants coming to your office and getting bags or in a lot of cases the agents themselves are doing a little sampling to get a better handle on what's going on in the county so it's been going since 2013 and that's what that's what this is all about Andrew why don't you flip the next page oh this is just a little bit more resource information maybe flip one more okay so the next thing you got in the mail was the sampling ID form and so there's some instructions on how to do this you know that same or very similar map on distribution is there the where to sample is there kind of how what the growers want to do or consultants or whomever fill out the geographic area and put your information in there and then do the soil sample and then send it into the lab and one thing that's important is that I never see the submitter information I don't see anybody's personal information all I see is egg levels and a geospatial point to create a map so the soybean council rightly so didn't want me having everyone's personal information I don't want it either when the program started so basically this goes to ag buys ag buys sends me a database full of points that I can make a map from and that's it but that's why this submitting this form is important it puts a firewall between me and the growers and also gives me information to make a map and then Andrew flip one more why don't you oh and that's just a soil sample bag the reason we the reason we have an image here is that last year the codes or the colored tag was yellow if you have yellow ones just get rid of the yellow use the green ones and that that's only a function excuse me that's only a function of funding cycles for the soybean council and go ahead Andrew that's it so again if you if you have if you have interest in sampling go ahead but if you have interest in getting this into the hands of growers I encourage you to do so but that's what the whole program is about it's designed to drive traffic to your offices and the soybean council covers the cost and in you know in the big cycle then hopefully a grower would come back to you to talk about how to manage this pathogen so that's what I prepared about SCN but I am more than happy to answer any questions on you know any other diseases of the broadleaf crops Sam what uh I'm not seeing any uh stem diseases and the way thing the soybeans are dying prematurely in my county from the dry weather I can't see any leaf symptoms to help um pinpoint those have you seen uh much stem diseases in the state or hearing much about it and what can I do to um search for them without having the leaf symptoms Hi Jeff yeah good question and so a couple of answers we have not seen a ton of stem diseases it's kind of surprised me to be honest we've had maybe a dozen samples come into the diagnostic lab with with leaf symptoms that are consistent of sudden death or brown stem rot which they are the leaf symptoms are identical and nearly all of them have been brown stem rot which we have it in the state I know we have but I've expected to see a little more sudden death and I'm expecting that charcoal rot is going to start to show up a little bit so so without the leaves or without the leaf symptoms the best thing you can do is take a pocket knife into a field and when these plants are starting to die maybe not the totally dead ones those those get full of like just saprophytic fungi but take a pocket knife in this in the in the field and pull up a plant and then focus on the bottom six inches of the stem and what I do is the first thing is I'll take that pocket knife and I'll kind of shave off the outer tissue just like you're shaving your beard just shave it off really slowly and carefully and if you see little brown or little black specks on that tissue just right underneath the skin of the plant that's a symptom of charcoal rot and then I take the knife and I split the stem longitudinally in half like the long way and then if the pith is brown like like that's very very center of the plant it looks like looks like lead in a pencil if that's brown that's a symptom of brown stem rot if that's clean but the rest of this the stem kind of the normally the white parts on the outside if that's brown and streaky or kind of discolored that's a symptom of fusarium so that could be sudden death or fusarium root stem rot but but without leaf symptoms that's what I do I I will I will focus on the lower six inches of the stem and I'll always bring a pocket knife and start cutting cutting things up. Sam we have a question in the chat box from Brad Brumman and the question is can you tell me where we are at with pinto beans and blacks with SCN? Yeah so there has been some more research that's been done recently about susceptibility of the different market classes Brad and this is important and we're going to be talking about it this winter a lot so there's a difference between susceptibility and kidneys I know you didn't ask about kidneys but kidneys tend to be the most susceptible but the newer data suggests that even the most susceptible kidneys are more like a moderately susceptible soybean which is good news because initially we thought they were just as susceptible and blacks tend to be very similar to resistant maybe moderately resistant soybean so that's really good news too. Pinto's and navies are somewhere in the middle think moderately resistant so that's pretty new over the last year and it kind of does in my mind it changes the game a little bit because it suggests that you know we're going to have SCN in the beans the dry beans but it's not going to be a devastating thing which is really really good it also suggests to me it's going to be a little bit harder to find so you're not going to see above ground symptoms maybe ever or very rarely we've seen them in kidneys in the minnesota sandy side you know where they grown by park rapid no st cloud where they grown by st cloud but with as far as distribution wherever scn is found in soybean sampling you know it just shares the ground with dry beans so we would assume that we would assume it's there and we would assume that it's reproducing on the dry beans actually in your area walsh county pemona to the north we are operating a little bit blind there's not a lot of samples in the maps you probably notice that right away and so your your area happens to be the area i frankly i'm most concerned about um because we we know i see and smooth and north we know we've got hotspots even in southern grand forks county and i'm a little bit afraid that a hotspots just gonna appear when you're blow up on you say and this is jeff again did did you end up finding much frog i leave spot then this season very very little very little i think i've been sent a couple pictures that i think are frog i and i haven't seen any myself um yeah just just very little which which is a good thing but yeah very very little i your last photo i think was probably frog i you know without the gray growth it's hard to confirm that but that would be my guess um so it's it's out there that particular disease it likes it hot it was just part of the reason they have way more of it the ice states and the mid-south kentucky tennessee that sort of thing but it needs fairly consistent rain and i think that maybe is the thing that we didn't get to get it blown up sam you got a question from craig uh craig you can go ahead okay can you hear me i can hear you all right this might be a little hard to answer but with soybeans coming farther and farther west out here to western north dakota um is there any relation to s c n to the maturity levels in the soybeans is it the shorter maturing or longer maturing ones any more susceptible or not yeah it's it's a good question and and yes it is actually a little harder to answer so part of the part of the answer is related to the breeding process so there's genetics for resistance in in the beans and for several decades they've really focused hard the breeders have really focused hard on maturity groups twos and threes right across the corn belt that's you know where s c n was oddest and where i don't know maybe 60 70 percent in acreages they focus a lot less on the low maturity groups so zeros double zeros they kind of worry about it too much right so we're a little bit behind in that regard um there's more than one source of resistance and it's really hard to find that second source in our maturity groups so that that kind of makes it harder and then there's the component of length of season so soybean cysts goes through a cycle about every 24 28 days you know in a favorable environment so in our area we think two to three full cycles is probably what happens most years in iowa it's maybe five you know maybe at least four because the growing season is longer uh as far as genetic relationship with susceptibility i don't know of any susceptibility in maturity groups but those two factors about length of season and the genetics for resistance are both at play so in a way maybe we're a little bit better because we don't have as many cycles conversely our resistance is not as good and so i think part of the reason is the egg levels are blowing up on us in the southeastern part of the state is the resistance in our varieties it's not quite as hot as in other areas okay thank you we got we got one more question for you sam in the chat box here uh this is from greg andress and any relationship with tillage systems example no till versus conventional till and scn populations i'm not greg i'm that's a good question i'm not sure about i'm not sure about the population exp move their population levels i there certainly is a relationship with spread and that's kind of an obvious one spread within a field and then liberating the soil and it blows around so you you do see less movement with something like no till but i am not so sure about the population that's that's a question i don't have an answer for you and thank you for stomping me greg and andrew you're going to have to cut me off here whatever yeah i was just going to say i know you have a commitment here at 1032 sam so um if there's any other questions you can certainly ask them later and i can relay those to sam and i haven't followed up with you but thank you sam i appreciate taking the time thank you everyone and yeah please feel free to reach out in any time i'll get back to you i'm getting a little slower here because of this week but i'll do my best i really appreciate your help and your questions see sam thank you well i guess uh we'll keep the disease talk a little bit more i guess extended the z-talk a little bit and uh what i more or less want to speak on today is kind of my status on what we're seeing in the wheat crop especially at this point in the season when we start thinking about uh grain quality or some of the impacts of some of the diseases we have so um i want to be covering basically three diseases uh just kind of my observations uh one is trisarium headlight or scabby kernels uh black point and then i'm going to end on erget so this first picture uh this is from my test plots and uh what i what i more or less want to show is that when when i'm starting to take a look at grain quality sometimes you can see that's fairly obvious and and then these plots what i'm looking at specifically you have a scabby kernel here one that is uh also scabby and then we also have one that has black point so to look at for a scabby kernel they tend to look lifeless there can be chalky white and this one there's a slight pink hue to it um all that is very characteristic of a scabby kernel uh black point is going to have a black to brown darkened region around around the embryo and some of the basic questions i get with black point is uh what does it do what causes it and should we be worried so black point is often associated with a couple different pathogens uh some may be saprophytes some may be a leaf pathogen and when i see black point in the worst case scenarios as weeds that's been sitting out there too long uh when you start seeing suity molds you can often see a higher risk of black point and the real risk from black point is it could potentially uh inhibit germination so anybody that's looking at it for seed purposes uh always a good good thing to do is do a germination test but it's something that can inhibit germination so that's one of the big thing the other thing on a quality aspect it can reduce to some black specs uh sometimes it can be can result in dockets too at the elevator but really it it has to become very noticeable before i've had come across any situations like that but very common type of black point this year and just kind of wanted to bring it up as far as you know what what's something that you may get a question on the one i want to spend most my time talking about is scab um so first thing is if i had to assess scab risk for the state i i would say most of the state was under a moderate scab risk at some point during the season especially during the heading and flowering stages uh generally the greatest risk area probably that might see some scab concerns is actually northwest north dakota um and i'm saying that from a perspective of when i'm seeing most of the heading and flowering dates uh coincide with what we see for scab risk not saying that some of the other regions aren't going to have maybe a few scabby fields but if i want to just kind of say that the general the general area that had the highest risk was up in that corner there for a while and certainly with the variety of planting dates and different heading dates and flowering dates it's tough to really gauge on what what the scab risk is in the crop but i do know we're under at least a moderate risk for most regions the other thing i want to mention about scab and scab management is this is by far the most amount of fungicides that i saw go across the state for scab this year and that was in eastern and western north dakota when i was out west during peak scab season i was seeing wheel tracks i was seeing aerial traffic uh there was a lot of spraying this year and i'd say in my 10 years i would be what i call banner year and fungicide application so hopefully that will help i think that's probably why we're going to probably manage most of our scab this year and when it comes to this point is also managing the mycotoxin deoxynevalamaldon or bombatoxin that's kind of what i want to talk about so when i think about bombatoxin and grain quality i think i'm looking at this wheat spikelet here and there's a couple things i want to draw your attention to if you have an infected spike there's a couple ways to look at this so when you have a severe infected kernel they're going to be extremely lightweight likely not to make it in the grain hop and that into the grain tank and that's probably where your most amount of dawn is going to be sitting in those really extremely shriveled kernels when you have a neighboring um floret next to it you'll notice that this kernel seems slightly reduced in weight but it's likely going to make it into the grain tank and it's likely going to have bombatoxin and even cases and i've been experienced with that's even healthy kernels when they're in direct vicinity to uh to a scabby kernel you may still see some pizzerium growth on the outside and that is could also result in some bombatoxin detection so just looking at this picture there's a couple different ways and how this works certainly varieties are going to be a big player on this um the more resistant variety the less spread of that infection in a lot of cases along the spikelet and our more susceptible varieties which we have a few of them out there uh you might see more of a mixed bag of uh of scabby kernels on a single head so that's just one way to kind of look at it but questions that i get at this time is pertaining to the bombatoxin values or the levels in the grain and there's two things i want to kind of remind folks is when it comes to testing for dawn at the elevator there's more error in the sampling than the test itself um and kind of put this in perspective if you would take a sample from a grain tank it is likely you're going to get complete you're going to get two different dawn levels and it's all dependent on what sample you're grabbing so in this bottom picture for on the below here example if your first sample maybe encompasses these really heavily pink derm kernels and your second sample is more of the of the healthy kernels you're going to have vastly different weight you're going to have vastly different values just based off the sample you're grabbing so um you might hear a lot of conversation that i took the one elevator and then i took it to an elevator elevator and i get two different values and that's that's that's the uh it's kind of the problem with this it's sampling you just do that you have the most representative sample that you can but when you get that question the test is really not changing it's more of the sample that's causing more error the other thing is uh if you have scabby grain that has higher levels of dawn it will not go down over time in the storage bin um they remain really stable over time the phasarium growth is always going to be there and if you have the phasarium you're going to have the dawn level so those are kind of the two key aspects of it right now so kind of summarizing some of the scab uh outlook or a scab at this point for me in my office i think we we did see scab in the field this year we saw it in a couple fields but i have not come across any concerning uh foam calls or uh any issues yet with uh with some of the bombotox levels but it's still early uh in my in my perception of this so if you have any questions with that or if you have any reports i would love to hear them because it gives me a better idea of some of the areas that may have had uh had more scab than others uh the last disease which i call kind of a post harvest disease is going to be erget um a couple things about erget we'll find it every year in north dakota a couple reasons for it is it likes cool wet weather which is a perfect scenario for the pathogen in north dakota and we have over 50 grass hosts and that's that's your small grain crops wheat barley rye rye being the most susceptible small grain crop but also includes all the smooth brome that you see in the ditches and the quack grass and if there's one thing that i've had conversations with this year um due to a lot of our grasshopper problems we had in the state uh there was a tendency to leave uh the ditches on mode or um unmanaged to try to control the grasshoppers to stay on the field edges and when that was done most of the smooth brome went ahead and when we see smooth brome go ahead there is a chance of the erget pathogen infecting the smooth brome and then you'll see some carryover into the edge of the field so what what does all kind of round it out to be is that we started to see some erget on field edges um and so i've had i handled a few phone calls where in those cases when you have just field edges of erget try to harvest and keep those separate uh that's that's going to save time and money from contaminated in a whole a whole grain lot because the thresholds on this is very very strict and that's why just a few erget bodies can have a pretty big impact on on a lot when it comes to sampling so if you want to look at erget thresholds out there it's based off of a proportion by weight so the proportion of weight of the erget bodies divided by a two kilogram sample of 2.2 pounds and the haul this is set up we have wheat that's at a 0.05 percent barley oats and triticale at 0.1 and rye at 0.3 and to put this in a bigger perspective if we're looking at this in wheat it's about 10 erget bodies in a two pound sample of wheat so it doesn't take a whole lot to to be classified as ergety and i again this is a little bit early but i i did get brought into a few concerns i've seen erget levels in the field being higher than expected and i'm optimistic that there were some harvest strategies in place or in some cases the erget incidence wasn't as high across the field and it remained on the field edges so that those are the kind of things i just wanted to touch on briefly is black point disarming headlight or more or less scabby grain and then erget and i would invite any questions that you have or anything else get touch on corn diseases that because we're still almost three quarters of the way i'm still trying to figure that out but i i'd be willing to answer any questions on small grains of corn if you have them joe i think people want to hear about weed just kind of what i'm gathering based off uh some of the response right now does anybody have any reports of scab or there's any concerning reports of scab in your areas or counties right now that's one of if they want to hear weeds andrew i think you're too good answer all the questions that or maybe extension messaging it was great that we were able to manage scab and not worry about bomb attacks and issues this year so i'll take that as a win-win in a lot of cases well i'll be sticking around at the end so um i can certainly pass this over to joe and then i can have him go through his talk and then we'll we'll be around until until the end of time when when the questions start to run out does that work for you joe yeah works for me all right i'll pass it off okay so i know we've got i don't know 15 or 20 minutes left here uh so knowing that we kind of have a tighter schedule this morning what i wanted to do was really just highlight some of the resources that we have available and some of the key points of my mind uh here in the middle of september uh september and october are both some very important months for weed control in our state particularly for no till acres and i know we get plenty of questions in pasture rangeland right-of-way areas as well so really too many weed things to cover injustice in a shorter time frame so that's why i really wanted to kind of highlight the key points and some resources and so this first slide here i made sure to include this picture in the background because middle of september we're basically in what i call pigweed id season so there's not a day that goes by that i don't get a picture of a pig weed wondering if it's palmer or waterhemp and so most of you on the call here are pretty good either contacting myself for brian janks or greg endris or anyone who's got some more experience with pigweed id i will show the updated map from the department of ag here in a little bit but we have found two new counties in a potential third new county this year uh two of those counties basically in the last two weeks or so as as we're now in what i call pigweed id season so really the time of year when the seed heads are there and people are really paying attention to to what the various pigweeds look like out in the field the other thing i really did want to focus on is uh fall burn down applications um and so i wanted to highlight this page from the weed guide so this is page seven we have two charts now on page seven in the weed guide uh added these i believe two years ago and what we're trying to do with these charts is basically show um different products that we might use in a fall burn down application in this case in crop fields and some of the weeds that we're targeting up here at the top and how effective they may be and so for instance 240 uh we use quite a bit for some broadleaf weed control in the fall uh on winter annual weeds and sometimes perennials and basically showing uh two different rates here if we look across the board uh horseweed or maristail might be fair to excellent control narrow leaf hawkspear fair means we're not going to really clean up all the populations of that weed with 240 by itself and also we hit we do have dandelion and candethysyl here at the end so two important perennial weeds within our row crops and so these this is not uh certainly it's not a comprehensive list of products that we can apply in the fall really just the most popular and and some of the cheap ones that might get utilized as people try to keep things relatively cheap in the fall the other thing that we have in this chart you may be wondering at the bottom here uh while we have spartan baller and a bunch of ends for no control so basically since we know we have two reasons for a fall application the first is to control emerged weeds and emerged winter annuals uh we have the these top herbicides that do have foliar activity but we also know we'll apply herbicides for residual control of some weeds into the spring and so we have folks that may try to apply spartan or valor in the fall and really just want to highlight we're not going to control the emerged weeds with those products and that's why we have the second chart at the bottom half of page seven and the title here is residual weed control on the weeds not emerged and so quite a bit of information packed into this chart so now you do see we have ratings for spartan and valor and then two different rates of valor uh and and how effective they may be against different weeds and you will see some for instance aphoria up here which is two group twos and then also has valor in there as well and showing how effective it may be on weeds that have not yet emerged and so this chart was was basically driven by our use of valor uh to control kosher the following spring but also do want to recommend or recognize that if we do apply valor uh we'll say now September 15th it it may be too early to uh for that kosher in the spring because we'll get some breakdown we can't really tease that out from this chart but if we apply it and we still have a month or six weeks here that horseweed might emerge this fall we would do a fair to excellent job controlling that horseweed that has not yet emerged so again primarily we do want to have this valor out close to ground freeze because we're using it primarily to target kosher uh but it's showing the the different residual um activity we can expect out of some of these products so just again that's all there on page seven um relatively new addition to the weed guides we're always looking to make updates and improvements to that i also just wanted to show a screenshot here i don't expect anyone to read this but the next page on the weed guide page eight we do have some narration about different things to consider for fall applications whether we're targeting perennials uh some considerations for specific herbicides the top here is a 240 in glyphosate and a couple other herbicides we may apply in the fall so just a one page narrative there some additional considerations some more detail on applying herbicides in the fall the one uh we wanted to point out uh in a little bit of detail is of course horseweed or maristail uh becoming a very problematic statewide over the last half a dozen years or so uh no exception this year plenty of phone calls and complaints on this weed uh basically in a lot of the no-till production areas and again wanted to highlight one of the reasons we talked about this weed in the fall is life cycle so horseweed or maristail we do have populations that emerge in the fall we can't have spring emergence as well so we still are pretty convinced that most of our populations in North Dakota are this black bar or the fall emerging horseweed or maristail we we uh probably do have quite a bit that does emerge in the spring but predominantly we have fall emergence if you go to other areas of the country some areas have more spring emerging than fall emerging so knowing that most of our horseweed emerges in the fall this august september october time frame it's really when we get germination some rosette growth trying to pack on some leaves before we get the ground freeze and those plants will then over winter and so this is a really good time to control those fall emerging plants because they're relatively small they had not over wintered yet or become tough and they're hardened off after over wintering and we can do it relatively cheap control them relatively cheap with something like 240 and dicamba or even higher rates of 240 by themselves so again this weed becomes a lot more problematic to control in the spring and and that's why we really focus on using growth regulators in the fall for effective control and relatively cheap control now the one thing I did want to point out with with horseweed I noted that the emergence of new or fall emerging horseweed typically starts sometime in august and throughout september we will have emergence however we do need some moisture in order to achieve that and so knowing it's been relatively dry lately I did I like to use this end-on tool just to get a snapshot of different just rainfall across the state since we all or at least I can have a very short-term memory at times and so I know it hasn't rained much lately here in Fargo but since August 1 we have had almost three inches so to me the in Fargo now a shot of rain last weekend and we have more coming we're definitely going to have some horseweed that's emerged and a lot more emergence likely to occur here over the next seven to 14 days my looks of certainly further west some of these Williams and McLean County areas I mean here's one end-on station that's recorded zero since August 1 through yesterday and so I you guys of course don't need me to say how dry it is but to me that really drives home the point that there's been no moisture events to stimulate germination of horseweed at that end-on station and 300s 400s some of the surrounding ones also no really no germination or rainfall events to simulate germination there either so next rainfall event that occurs at some of these dry areas there's probably going to be some winter annual weeds that germinate but if you go out and check the fields right now they may be not a whole lot of winter annuals just because of how dry it is so certainly something that can kind of give you a quick pulse on if we've had germination to date but certainly as rainfalls kick in September through October we will go ahead and get some some germination of winter annuals still before the ground freezes so another way to basically phrase that is you know if I'm at this station would I spray for horseweed now no I mean I would always scout if I was in question but I would not expect new horseweed emergence at that station once we get some rainfall to occur then definitely keep an eye on on fields in the area and see if horseweed has emerged in that area so again it's not it's not just going to magically germinate in the fall we we do need some rainfall to cause those germination events so the other thing I want to focus on here a couple more screenshots from the weed guide but so we do have this started on page 64 noxious and troublesome weed section and most of these are noxious weeds but want to highlight here I pulled out just one the leafy spurge pages because I think most questions that we'll get for some of these noxious weeds leafy spurge being one is May and June we'll get a lot of questions about when to apply different herbicides to control leafy spurge and May and June knowing that when it's flowering is a really good time to control leafy spurge but this when to apply column is I think pretty important to pay attention to on some of these perennial noxious weeds especially again this section has a lot of pasture and rangeland information in it but showing that we do have some different things to consider really based on herbicide and weed for when to apply these in order to get best control and so this is basically all an accumulation of Dr. Rod Lim's research over the years and showing when the best time if you're going to use that program will be to apply to apply that program in this case for leafy spurge but it does apply to other weeds so there are some like Tordon Plateau and 240 is a very popular mix for leafy spurge for us when to apply is in this case just in the spring we do have a note do not apply in the fall and that's primarily because of some issues with with grass injury with that plateau but also if you're going to apply that program really the best time Dr. Lim found is in that spring time frame so again just highlighting different programs may dictate different times a year as the best time to apply that program so we always have the weed of the year in the back of the weed guide I did want to highlight just one so if we go back to 2013 that's when we had foxtail barley as the weed of the year bring this one up specifically because we we also had a lot of foxtail barley out in landscape this year and so we do have that this one page right up on foxtail barley and I did highlight this chart in the bottom left is some older data from up in Canada about when is the best time to control foxtail barley with glyphosate and highlighted here that their data shows as we get into September that's when we get the best control of foxtail barley and so this is an important point of consideration with as much foxtail barley as we had this year this is now the really good window to use glyphosate in our crop fields to control foxtail barley it is a perennial grass and control controlling it in the fall with glyphosate is actually a lot easier than trying to control it next spring with glyphosate similar to horseweed just just very just easier to control in the fall with these herbicides prior to the them overwintering and of course this being a perennial that's when it's sending some of its carbohydrates down to the roots to try and overwinter so just highlighting this this weed of the year because again for all these weeds like Maristail, Canithistle, Dandelion we're concerned about now but foxtail barley and then some of our winter annual brooms we can clean up with glyphosate relatively easily in the fall last I think two slides here on the PowerPoint I wanted to highlight before I do want to hop over and show some website resources and so Kosha again it talks a little bit about Kosha for our applications now primarily of Valor to control Kosha that's going to be an annual thing moving forward if we want to get some best Kosha control in the spring so I know this slide is circulated quite a bit basically showing what I call best case scenario of applying in this case four ounces of Valor in the fall before the ground froze in this case a very late middle of November application I don't think we can expect this good of control most years and most fields by early June with Valor in the fall we're primarily making that application can we get some some pretty good control into and throughout May that's going to very much depend on the year but if nothing else we will thin out that population to make our burn down our spring burn down and able to get better coverage better efficacy on Kosha with a spring burn down application so I like that slide because I call it a best case scenario I know Dr. Janks has has provided a lot of data over the years and so I did want to show where to find some of that data over the years on our websites so let me kind of switch screens here okay so now we're over should be looking at a map of Palmer Amaranth distribution across North Dakota so since I mentioned the the data from from Dr. Janks and where to find some other presentations I'll show that first and then go back to the map so here luckily our weed science website we do have a lot of the old information available online and so we do have presentations from the last three years from the wild world of weeds workshop here available online so just wanted to show I always just google NDSU wild world of weeds to get here so this is the main page on our weed science website but on the tabs here on the left you can actually go to the different presentations and so the the next tab I have already pre-open for us is the 2022 presentations and so for instance if you want to see okay what what did Brian present at 2022 wild world of weeds click the name and it brings you to the PDF of that presentation so we we tried to keep those online for as long as possible and then I know that he's got several years of data available here on the website for those fall applications of Valor how they look in the spring and the the main line is it's variable we tip we tend to get some benefit out of that fall applied Valor for coach control in the spring okay just a couple more tabs I wanted to show I showed the 2013 weed of the year in a slide format do want to show that we do have catalogs from 2009 through 2019 weed of the year and so as we're now in the fall talking about perennial weeds here is dandelion so perennial perennial broadleaf weed we have got horseweed and narrowly foxbeard they were really the year in 2017 and 2018 so winter annual weeds that we could control in the fall there's 2013 foxtail barley and so we don't have 2020 through 2022 on here a little bit more difficult to update this website now since it's on the older system but we do have this older catalog data if you had specific questions on dandelion you can click on dandelion here's here's a 2009 right up in the back of the weed guide if you don't have a 2009 weed guide handy and so again here it's basically showing a glyphosate in the top right corner for control of dandelion in early fall late fall or spring and showing that we're going to get better utility i've in this case glyphosate or 2 4d in the fall compared to the spring so some some older write-ups but still very valuable information particularly as it pertains to fall applications right now so those are the resources that i wanted to show off at the moment weed guides available online and i did say i'd show the current map with palmar amaranth so we'll kind of end my narration here where we began with palmar and pigweed season so the the colors on the map by the department of ag are kind of constantly evolving and some of these counties do need to be updated for instance their their current distribution here is that green is previously found but still detected and blue is previously found but no longer detected and i believe both sergeant and benzin we we have confirmed in the last couple weeks that there are still palmar plants at some of those sites so those two probably should be green and then as far as red uh head inger and trail county are new this year uh trail is about two plants and head inger i think we found 10 plants in the field and hand pulled all those so i think that's why they have those counties red so again i always refer to the latest map from the department of ag um and that's something i just googled north coast department of ag palmar amaranth map and it's usually the first link that pops up so those are some of the resources i wanted to highlight um and again just kind of a lot of considerations for fall weed control this time of year so i'm going to stop sharing and i think um whatever time we have remaining five minutes it looks like uh do some some questions and answers i'm trying to put my my head around um waterhemp and palmar and paul is there any advantage is this a time of year and fall application are there herbicides in the fall that will greatly enhance our our pig weed control in the spring i mean great great question so can we apply any herbicides in the fall to enhance pig weed control in the spring that um so in general you know my answer would be no i always like i always say there's a maybe in there and so if we applied something like four ounces of valor in this fall you know we may catch the first flushes of pig weeds in the spring any april or early may pig weeds uh but particularly with waterhemp and palmar as well but since we have a lot more waterhemp acres we'll get germination throughout may throughout june throughout july and so eventually that valor does run out and so you know catching the first flush may not be sufficient or definitely is not sufficient for season long control and generally when we talk about kind of bang for your buck on an acre we really do want to have all that residual as close to planting as possible to give us the the widest window of control in the spring so you know we'll get some control but it's really kind of an academic exercise you know 20 or 30 40 percent maybe uh and that's that's why we recommend all that can all the residual uh at planting in the spring this is brad again i drove from uh from southern sergeant county all the way to waltz county yesterday are we losing the battle with waterhemp i am i'm seeing waterhemp in just about every field and it's it's hard some of these fields are hard yeah it's it's uh you know you don't ever want to throw in uh throw in the towel or throw up the white flag but certainly commercially we we to see as you mentioned this part of the valley or about southern half of the valley at least it's it's pretty disappointing or depressing to to see how much waterhemp we have late in the season the interesting thing i mean so for that we we kind of do need to just really double down and focus on it's going to be two to three applications minimum in season with effective modes of action it's going to be expensive uh and and that's one of the reasons why we do have quite a bit of escapes um the other interesting thing is if you took that drive about a month ago maybe maybe six weeks ago things were looking pretty good but it seems like in the fall when the crops stop growing the waterhemp takes over the canopy that's when we finally do see just how much waterhemp was actually out there uh throughout july and august so it's it's certainly um not the best situation but i i think we'll just need to kind of redouble some efforts and i know some some feedback i got from the soybean council for instance is they some farmers just kind of want a simple message of tell me when to spray and so i'll be working on some of that we're basically for for complete season law and control what we get in research if you wait after 28 days after planting uh for a post-emergence application you're not going to win that battle so i'll be developing some slides that you guys can use this winter to really focus in on timing just kind of make it uh beddy crocker in the kitchen recipe and if you slip from that recipe then you're you're going to have waterhemp escapes joe where this is jeff stockler where are we at with kosha in the potential for dicamba resistance uh where where are you thinking we are with that yeah great question jeff so kosha and dicamba resistance and so you know if we go back three three four years ago i know we had identified a handful of populations across the state that we called dicamba resistant to to lower rates of dicamba then we currently use um an extent soybean so i'm i'm going to be talking specifically about the half pound rate and so we had not confirmed to my knowledge resistance to that yet uh but we certainly have a lot of concerning questions and escapes this year and i know i'll be uh i'm going to have a lot of seed sent my way from some agronomists i i do see now that brian is on and i'm seeing the list i'm assuming brian's had similar conversations but i know with with my conversations um i i this is a very big generalization but i've said basically draw a line from devil's lake down to avidine south dakota and seems like that kind of corridor uh have gotten quite a lot of concerning questions pictures phone calls um if i were to generalize the questions i've gotten i i generalize it as 80 of the phone calls about dicamba failing to control kosha and soybean uh probably the kosha was too big and even if it's four to five inches you know that may have worked in the past but it's it's becoming a tougher game so i call that too big to confirm resistance the other 20 i do have some concerns with so we'll be screening this fall i i wouldn't i won't be surprised at all if we find a couple populations that are resistant to that half-pound soybean rate we've just had a lot of pressure with dicamba on kosha and soybean since what 2017 the launch of that technology so five six years now so we're going to try and and confirm some things this winter but uh i i definitely think there's some populations out there we just need to document them i've got a question for andrew is you know back in the 60s i remember urgot being pretty endemic in our wheat especially with the walden variety is this something that's coming back or is it is this last couple years seems to have been the the reemergence of urgot is it an ever is it a cycle or is it just weird weather or why are we starting to see urgot back into our wheat yeah that's a good question um so kind of date back to 2018 i think that's when urgot got put back on the radar i don't think there's one puzzle piece that completely answers this i'll touch on varieties you mentioned walden wheat one one variety i was shown to be pretty susceptible to urgot and i had a graduate student just get done in the greenhouse looking at urgot resistance and 25 commercially available spring wheat varieties and walden was still the most susceptible and everything that we have since walden is more resistant so not sure i really can't say that it's a we're seeing more susceptibility in the variety so naturally the next thing i start looking at is what's the environment um we know urgot likes cool wet weather but i think the biggest driver is probably cool wet weather in first week of june last week of may i think that might be indicative of why we see some urgot uh again kind of a hunch because if we go out to southwest north dakota where they've had urgot for every year basically um it could be more of a production issue so at least we tell another puzzle piece about about production i just think that we just have an overabundance of grassy weeds and smooth brome i'd say is our biggest carry of urgot in the entire state if you would ask any of my colleagues in south dakota they would say the same thing and no one that's smooth brome is just about in every road ditch i did think that noklim's every there so i not sure if we're just seeing more or maybe maybe we're just starting to scout for more or just starting to notice it more i'm not quite sure what the whole answer is but we started exploring this a couple years ago and i i think we have some traction on the more we know about some of the varieties certainly comparing it to like waldrin but i i just don't i just don't know where that's at as far as like this is for sure the reason why andrew this is jeff stockler i i'd say based on my observations this year that quackgrass is just as bad or worse i think compared to smooth brome i mean what i'm with helping with range judging practice the site just is tremendous with eargot in the quackgrass and what smooth brome is there i can't find much so um i think that's just as bad i don't know my my grassy weeds as much but my hypothesis could be that quackgrass and smooth brome probably have different heading dates is that is that probably true joe what do you think a little bit okay maybe it depends on the situation in a lot of ways yeah and they're also kind of they are different so i don't know the they're a good host range if it's more i guess i shouldn't say grass family but more if there's certain grass sub families are more successful or not genus is what i'm the word i'm looking for there when we were out at the soil field health day by um larimore they're all the crest of wheat grass had erget in it so that field might have some bodies but so we just brought up three different grass so so i think that kind of speaks to the nature of the pathogen right so how i look at this information from like jeff and brad and bailey have mentioned is you know a lot of times i can see that certain hosts are uh greater for erget and part of that could just be you know maybe a monoculture of the of the grass but uh could be just the kind of the erget pathogen spores floating around and affecting at a certain time so i i i still think that there's i i just think north dakota is an erget state um and a lot of it is because when i say we have 50 grassoes we probably have five or six if it's cover crops c rp mixes that are just bigger carriers of it and it's just something we're in grain and we might always see these kind of fluctuations in it um and i just wish there was a 100 full proof management plan in place but we have some suppression that we can use most of it that is culturally at this moment i'll just check in because uh botanists always like to screw up my world at one point with crest of wheat grass and quack grass were agro pyrons but now quack grass is back to a limus so they're they're more closely related than either one is to to smooth broom what's your feeling on green fox tail joe that could be really or andrew related to erget i don't know what the deal is but there seems to be a lot of escape and i hope not resistant but green fox tail this year we did not get very good control on western north dakota at least on that this year at all for whatever reason there seems to that's really seems to be a major issue this year yeah andrew you want to go first on the erget and i can talk about the resistance yeah so fox tails reported to be an erget host um i personally have never seen it on fox tail uh and i probably haven't been looking hard enough or trying to find it but i know compared to what some of the other species we were talking about i know it's it's probably susceptible but timing has to be right in a lot of ways so that's kind of my take on it from that from an erget perspective and craig as far as resistance we do have we know of several populations of uh both group one herbicides and group two and even some that's group one and group two and so i know uh brian screens green fox tail uh every year for on the last five six maybe more i assume brian is still uh conducting those those trials brian if you're on it can confirm uh that'd be great but uh i know last year we had a lot of failures because of the drought green fox tail tends to thrive in in dry situations or i maybe not thrive but be more difficult to kill uh there's plenty of older research alluding to that i know there's some also some research uh importance for those out west that green fox tail is actually more competitive and low ph like four and five ph soils than more neutral and and alkaline soils and so there's a couple things lined up so a lot of failures last year maybe more competitive in these low ph pockets that we have but also there is quite a lot of resistance to our group one and group two herbicides and that's regardless of what crop we use them in those two uh classes of herbicides we do have quite a bit of resistance joe can you hear me yes brian uh yes we are still uh screening green fox tail so if you want to send us some uh a sample uh we'll be starting that in october november real quick um we're seeing a lot more fuel penny crests up here do you have any idea why that is for that for that specific weed i'm besides the fact it's a winter annual so fine wet falls and then uh just not doing anything in the fall will typically increase winter annual pressure shouldn't be anything that one shouldn't stick out more compared to like you know horseweed and hawk spear we see more of because they're more difficult to kill but i can't really think of field penny crest being that much more difficult than other winter annual broadleaf weeds that would be out in the field now sam was on he'd tell you that's a that's a soybean systematode host oh good that's all we need canada does have some group two resistant field penny crests but i don't know that it's widespread and i i don't know that it's that's an issue here i think it's just a environmental thing myself well if you guys have any more questions feel free to reach out to sam joe or i and um more than happy to help you if you if you have to troubleshoot anything so just appreciate you logging in today and uh uh engaging in the discussion yeah thank you


It's been just awesome. It's amazing. I feel that I've made a really good experience with great employees and interesting sessions for a lot of people. The global this year is the best experience. You can see it right because I'm there. Nice, it was good. It was a wonderful event. It's so great to connect with everybody and I can't, I'm looking forward to it. So nice to meet you face to face. It's amazing. Thank you for your work. It's been awesome because there's been so many sessions that have been workable and relevant and research based. The keynotes have been out of this world. MDLA, they've worked very nicely with open educational resources from primary, secondary school and university. Lots of good stuff there. Hello everyone. I'm doing a project with some pediatric cardiologist colleagues and we're working on making 3D models for pediatric congenital heart defects. So we have a range of different models that we're able to print and the idea is we make openly licensed instructional videos that explain the surgical procedures that correct the defects over time. Usually it's a series of procedures. The idea with these models is you can print them at a local library and then that's something the family or others could have and explain and understand. I'm exciting of course. I'm really looking forward to what I can learn here and I still have to make a choice from the program which is really give you some stress because there's so much you can see and you can visit and to know and to learn about that I have to make some choices. Hello. Hello world. You know yesterday I was at the indigenous experience event and I'm here this morning looking forward to the opening event and to Darian Los Angeles.


ct, I have content planned to delve into some of these topics in a more analytic fashion. Until then, thank you again for watching, and I hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday season. Marcus.


The State of Clean Energy. The show was sponsored by the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum with funding from the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute. Today, we're delighted to welcome our two guests, Shannon Tanganan from Hawaiian Electric Company and Jeff Pickles, co-founder and executive vice president of Green Grid Inc. So Shannon is gonna talk to us about the latest developments with the HECO resilience program. So Shannon, what's going on with resilience? Well, because of COVID-19, we were delaying a lot of our projects because we didn't want to, you know, change out polls and do a lot of the work that we normally do ahead of hurricane season because it would have required customer outages. So now that, you know, economies opening up again, we wanna just allow people, or allow our folks to work again, you know, to get out and do the resilience work that normally is done before hurricane season.  So we really need to do this type of work so that we can get, you know, everything prepared before hurricane season, you know, get our grid to be stronger. So we just wanted to let people know that they might get notifications, either in the mail or delivered to them, letting them know about outages that might be coming. So I just like to report that they just changed a couple of polls right on my driveway this week. And the guys did a great job. Oh, good, good. Yeah, they were very protective of the flower gardens and everything else like that. I couldn't believe it. They were actually willing to move their trucks and they had all these poles lying in the road and one of our, one of the workers that was working, he had to move his car. So like, they had to move all their trucks, move the telephone poles and everything else like that. And they couldn't have been nicer about it. It wasn't like, oh my God, they were like so willing and friendly and gracious. And us kind of just- Oh good, I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, and then the work they did was really great. The workmanship was fine. They put in a couple of new transformers. Yeah. You could tell that they did a really good job on it. And they picked up after themselves or no nails or broken wires or things left lying around. So very, very nice job. Good, I'm glad you enjoy the experience. Yeah, did you have to take an outage? Yeah, for about four or five minutes. It was no big deal. Oh, okay. Yeah, totally no big deal. And the guy came down, knocked on the door and told us he was about ready to cut the power for a few minutes and no problem at all. Yeah. I had a big backup power system for my computer so I could actually run right through it. Yeah, so anyone who will be affected by these outages will get notification. So we just wanted to let people know that this kind of work is going to start up again because we are really sensitive to people staying at home and working from home during the stay at home orders. And now that it's loosening up a little, we're just trying to get some of this work done, catch up. Right. Well, thank you so much, Shannon. And we're going to break off now and I'm going to introduce our second guest, Jeff. Thank you. Thank you, Paul. You're welcome. And thank you, Hawaiian Electric, for keeping the lights on and letting us all be productive. So, Jeff, you're going to talk to us about the economics of hydrogen services and the grid for both the grid and transportation.  This is part two. You were here like two weeks ago. So you have a little video that you're going to show us. And so if the staff could crank up the video, we'll check out the latest. Hi, I'm Scott Herb, I'm the fueling station. I'm operations manager for Iwitani Corporate of America. Hi, I'm Paul Wilkins, Director of Operations for Iwitani Corporation of America. And we're going to give you a quick tour of our hydrogen refueling station in San Ramon, California today. We here at Iwitani Corporation of America own and operate four hydrogen fueling stations in the state of California. We are actively looking at expanding that fleet within the state of California and are looking for opportunities outside of California as well. Our parent company Iwitani based in Japan has the largest market share of stations and production plants in the country of Japan. Hi, this is our liquid hydrogen storage tank, 7,000 gallons of liquid on site. And from there, we go into our compression system. We have a five-stage compressor that takes the hydrogen to 10,000 PSI-G. And this is the end of the process, the dispenser is compliant with J2601. And it's as easy as filling your tank with gasoline. So about five minutes from the fill and we're good to go. Thanks, that was perfect. Last time when we talked about our introduction to hydrogen energy, we talked about the opportunities to go on a tour of any of the facilities here in California as difficult as that is in this day and age. I wanted to give everybody a quick virtual tour and we could see how simple the liquid hydrogen tank system can be and it's one of the standard pieces of equipment that's in place in a lot of the hydrogen filling stations here. So I just wanted to kick off today's discussion with a little example of a virtual tour. So thanks for that. And that was Iwitani, they're really great in hydrogen filling or as you could hear from that, they're interested to do more projects. So that's definitely an important resource for everybody. So quick second introduction for myself, I'm Jeff Pickles, founder and vice president, Green Grid Inc. We're a technology and services company. We're based in San Ramon, California and we're dedicated to the sustainable solutions of energy for utilities and transportation sectors. So we have a lot of different programs going on, including remote sensing for utilities and as well as for artificial intelligence and machine learning for developing different automated solutions and digitization of operations and maintenance. But today what we want to talk about in more detail is hydrogen energy. And so with that, let's go to the next. We'll start at go to the next one. So we had our great virtual tour. The next three things that we want to be able to cover today is a cost breakdown of hydrogen energy storage and what the major components are. And we can talk a little bit about how we do our modeling, which is one of the services that Green Grid Inc. has been working. We're going to look at a case study that we've been doing for a 50 megawatt hydrogen storage project. And we want to talk last about some of the benefits of hydrogen as it relates to electric grid, transit for buses, and also for transportation for light duty. We'll go to the next. So what were the drivers for our cost analysis? That's fundamental to talk about some of the assumptions mentioned. Last time, we talked a lot about how energy storages can be used for about a four hour shift for duct curve, but there's also a need to really replace the base load, which comes from petroleum, and also to replace petroleum for transportation. And that's when the storage duration needs to be a lot longer, so we have a driver of 24 hours or longer storage. Another really great point, Mitch, that you drove home for me is that in Hawaii, the store energy has to be transportable between islands. That's a really important factor. Including those two, that translates into gigawatt hours of storage. It's something we need big solutions. We also need them to be fast responding to be able to perform demand response, peak shaving, voltage stabilization, and be able to be managed and part of the reactive power component of the grid. Next. So this is a screenshot. Apologize for the resolution. We're going to have another slide that looks at the detailed results here. This is just a screenshot of Green Grinning's renewable energy techno-economic analysis model. We can go to the next slide. That's what it looks like for the first seven years of the project and it runs out for the entire life of the program. So we developed this model in 2009, primarily used it for solar and wind project development, and it's evolved for hydrogen energy projects to this day. So what we do in this model is we take all the components technical performance from all the data sheets and all the information from the vendors or field experience. And then we also put on all the cost of all the equipment, including the labor, tax credits, all the incentives. And we calculate the performance of the plant every 15 minutes of the year if it's a solar plant. And we look at all of the energy generation, the cash flow, the internal rate of return, net present value, return on investment, CO2 balance, water savings, the dollar per kilowatt hour of energy going in and out and the dollar per kilogram of hydrogen. So those are all the things that we model and measure for different case studies. Next. So this is a graphical representation of the results of our 50 megawatt case study. So it kind of starts top left and goes down into the right. The three big parts of production is we need to have renewable energy to be solar or wind. In this case, we chose four cents per kilowatt hour as the value of that energy. Electrolyzer, in this case, we have a 50 kilowatt hour per kilogram electrolyzer performance spec. And these are round numbers for this case, for this presentation to make it really easy to go through quickly. That translates into about a $3 per kilogram fuel price. It could be distributed right there to the right through pipeline or trailer for about $3.50 per kilogram. But for larger systems, we can keep going. You got something, Mitch? Yeah, I forgot to undo my mute. Yeah, so when we talk about dollars per kilogram, we also want to kind of let the audience know how that equates to gasoline. So it's basically a gasoline gallon equivalent because if you use it in a fuel cell, it's twice as efficient about as an internal combustion engine. So that's like $1.50, $1.60 a gallon gasoline, correct? Correct, that's correct. Great point. So then after we have gas, we're going to put it into a liquefier. And this is a machine that compresses and expands and cools the gas until it becomes a liquid at minus 252 degrees C. Going through that process, which would use more renewable energy, the value of the hydrogen and the price of the hydrogen goes up to our estimate is about $4.40 per kilogram. Then it can be stored in a cryogenic liquid tank as we recently have seen on TV, thanks to SpaceX performing a fabulous launch from Florida worked perfectly and liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen tanks were in full view during the preparation for that launch. And there's a picture of it there. That tank can hold about 4.4 usable gigawatt hours of electric energy storage. So that's a significant amount of storage. What is that? What is 4.4 gigawatt hours? That's 180 megawatt hours for 24 hours or 26 megawatts for seven days. 180 megawatts for 24 hours, that's significant. That's like an entire windpark for 24 hours. That's a significant amount of energy. A big windpark. Yeah, so then it can be distributed there on the arrow to the right to produce renewable electrical energy on demand. Our estimate there is about 25 cents per kilowatt hour. And that for me is a really interesting number. That's where solar was about 10 years ago. Maybe a little more plus or minus. So we feel like we've got a great trajectory here for the price for on-demand renewable energy through hydrogen storage to follow that same trajectory that solar did. Next. So this is another graphical representation of some of the results of our routine model really quickly. Some of the specs that came out of this was the 58-ton liquid storage tank. Again, as we spoke for a sense per kilowatt hour renewable energy, 470 was the delivered hydrogen cost. That's CAPEX, the equipment cost plus the operations costs. And that's without any incentive. So in California and Oregon, British Columbia, hopefully in more areas, we have the low-carbon fuel standard system that's coming out that will help provide an incentive for low-carbon fuels. And renewable hydrogen will be the lowest-carbon fuel in that make-up and receive the highest credit. So the big cost driver in there, looking at the graph, I love this graph, is the liquefier. So is there any technology developments that'll bring the cost of that liquefier down that you're aware of yet? We believe that in general, this market has been underserved for many decades. And now we're seeing the demand really start to come on and we're under the impression that many vendors through economies of scale, without any invention, just through economies of scale can get big cost reductions in the electrolyzer and liquefier, both. Yeah. Well, I'm already seeing the electrolyzer. I mean, now it's talking about 40% savings when they go to volume production. So I'm not sure if that's reflected in your electrolyzer component yet. Because I don't think it's finished. Yeah, these are cost estimates that we got within the last 12 to 18 months of work, of research and working with various suppliers. These don't reflect any optimistic projections yet. So the actual storage itself is relatively low cost. If you look at that little green band. That's right. It doesn't inject a lot of the cost. It's not a significant component of your cost. It's the liquefier and the electrolyzer that are the two midis. That's right. So we can get a good breakdown on that on the next slide too. So there's the red circle around that little green sliver for the storage component on the right hand image. So what we did here is we just wanted to get a sense of where we are with this result. So the National Renewable Energy Lab is really fantastic at publishing these studies of the cost of various energy technologies. And this is a publication on the left for battery system cost from NREL from, I believe, 2018. So fairly up to date. And this was for a 60 megawatt system with, you can see there a half hour, one hour, two hour or four hours of storage is the lowest cost as they had their four hours of storage. And these are not quite apples to apples. They include installed labor and they break out inverter and things like that targeting to have a really high resolution cost breakdown, whereas our model does not include some of those parameters. But we feel as though it's showing a good trend. So we have more work to do on our modeling effort for sure, but this is a fantastic trend that shows that for larger scale systems, the installed price, the capital equipment cost, a dollar per kilowatt hour of storage for hydrogen can be competitive with battery, could even beat it. And the primary reason for that is just to have so many more hours of storage and to have the storage component be a small part of the price. So it's kind of opposite from battery really. Next slide. So continuing with some of the results of our case study for our storage lifetime, the lifetime cost is really important to think about. So sometimes people talk about installed cost and that can be different from lifetime cost. We want these assets to work and be valuable and profitable for their owner and operator and provide value to the customer for a long period of time. So in this case, what we were looking at is this four hour battery could be $400 per kilowatt hour, up to 900. Our 24 hour hydrogen system came in at 239. And there is more work to do there to really compare the lifetime cost. So hydrogen fuel cells and electrolyzers typically have a very long lifetime without a lot of degradation. Many years ago, a lot of work was put in to having the fuel cell degradation be less than half a percent per year. And that kind of thing continued with solar panels were to target really low degradation so projects could have a long lifetime. And that was really important to be able to finance and have investors participate with renewable energy projects. So batteries can have a limited cycle life. And sometimes within that cycle life, there can even be a very significant degradation of 25% or even 30% or more. It will just depend on how you use the battery and really what the warranty terms are with your supplier. So that's just something to keep in mind. So another thing that is really important to talk about when we're talking about storage equipment, cost of safety and batteries as we know can suffer from thermal runaway. So that is a challenge. It is manageable, but it's always out there as something that's a potential where hydrogen storage tanks don't suffer from a chemical runaway process like that. They can have a leak and they can be vented safely and there are many documented instances in the industry over a long period of time that that can happen safely. So that's something that's important to consider too. All right, let's go to the next slide. So what I wanted to do really quickly too I wanted to talk about some of the state of hydrogen energy and why it's important to think about hydrogen energy for transit, utilities and for transportation. So within transit, you guys are really leading the nation right now. You were the first ones to commit to the zero emission and carbon neutrality 2045. So everybody should applaud Hawaii for leading the way to get that going. And then California came on right after with California assembly bill 44 it's titled ditching dirty diesel. And this is where we are going to outlaw diesel for public transit by 2045.  Another really key factor when you're thinking about zero emissions for transit whether it be battery or hydrogen, both of those solutions can remove the emissions near people. So diesel emissions near people is not a good thing. It's a has carcinogens and particularly that socks NOx COCO2 all right in very close proximity to people. So it has a really high health impact compared to event stack located at a remote utility location far away where the wind can take the emissions away quickly. So scale, hydrogen can scale very quickly and fast filling is really important for transit to be able to fill up to full range in eight to 15 minutes is a really high value that keeps the wheels rolling. That's what I like to say. I love that expression keep the wheels rolling. If the bus is sitting, we're not moving people we're not providing the service. Also resiliency is really important to consider for hydrogen in California we don't talk about if anymore we talk about when there'll be a power shutdown because of wildfire considerations. So now we want to make sure all of our transit has fuel storage so they can operate in the event of extended power outage particularly if an evacuation were needed and we wanted to use public transit for evacuation. I'm a big believer. Not only that my big hobby horse is using your fuel cell electric buses for alternate power remote, you know mobile power backup power units for resilience. Of course. That's a great one of us for like 30 hours to provide backup power and then you can refill it in 10 to 15 minutes and you got another load another 30 hours of operation available. So I think Hawaii is also famous for funding programs to develop micro grids which is something the green grid anchor really supports and we have some really great micro grid projects we're involved with here in California that involve integrating hydrogen energy storage with HVAC, communications, all of the above to provide an entire energy hub that can be portable using the, in this case a bus as the supply. So those are all fantastic concepts and should all be evaluated and pursued where they fit. Another great thing to consider about for hydrogen energy for transit is it's the existing business model of delivered liquid fuel and you can establish long-term supply contracts with fuel suppliers and of course power fuel cell buses have a lot of power we can design the bus to be able to climb a hill and carry heavy loads as necessary and have a very long range for the routes that need the long range. And they do that a lot and the hills of Oakland and Berkeley where AC transit uses its buses very hilly crossing all the bridges every day which have big elevation changes on the bridges. So we in California have a lot of fuel cell buses that have a lot of elevation gain on their routes works very well. And of course the safety as we spoke about earlier hydrogen can vent down safely in the worst case emergency without any chemical runaway or hard to control situations. So let's just transit in a nutshell let's go to the next really quick and see how we can do. Perfect. So utilities can also use hydrogen energy. What we're seeing a lot now is that utilities are coming out with really thorough integrated resource plans. And this is their roadmap to achieving low carbon or zero carbon energy by their particular date whether it be 2040, 2045. And a lot of times these integrated resource plans have a lot of work put into identifying how much energy storage will be needed but the gap now is what technologies are we gonna use to do that? And that's an area where green greening can really help out to perform some analysis and case studies to try to understand what part of the solution hydrogen energy can to meet the target. And what's great about it is once you have that hydrogen solution then you have dispatchable renewable energy in a much more robust larger system that has been available to date. So it'd be a great resource for utilities to operate their network. This can avoid new transmission and distribution because you construct liquid fuel or ship liquid fuel on barges. It has the resiliency that we want of having stored liquid fuel which is something that we've come to rely on. I'm sure the state of Hawaii in each island has many, many days of stored petroleum reserves. So that's something that we count on having that there. It also can give utilities new customers. So a lot of times today people think about they buy electricity from their utility or maybe natural gas, but now they can buy if a utility would so choose to sell hydrogen. And that hydrogen can support customers that are looking for steam generation, zero carbon steam production, recycling, brazing, all kinds of manufacturing, recycling, steel and concrete class and many more. So there's a lot of great ways to make thermal processes zero emission when you can deliver renewable liquid hydrogen to the customer. And then of course backup power and blending into natural gas pipelines are also two really fantastic services. So if a utility is thinking that there are any commercial or residential or industrial customers that need more backup power, maybe something a little bit bigger than a traditional batteries used for or in California, now we have the power safety power shut off, planned outages for safety due to wildfire. That could also be due to earthquake or even tsunami. Those kinds of cases is where you have large storage, zero emission generation is a great solution. Next slide. Kind of try to wrap it up for you guys. Oil and gas and hydrogen energy are a really good fit. So for all you oil and gas customer companies out there that sell gasoline today or sell liquid natural gas for transportation, your customers are seeking zero emission fuels and it's gonna come more and more. So you can have a renewable liquid hydrogen business just as easily as having an oil business. They're just a little bit different, but there's a lot of similarities. So the same processes, still have truck drivers, pipelines, whatever. So you have a lot of corporate knowledge and how to distribute these kinds of fuels. Like you have hydrogen. So a lot of regulations are gonna be coming forward. That's gonna make that important. And another thing that people keep talking about is the paradigm shifts in transportation with self-driving, more transportation services like Uber and Lyft are coming in and a lot of delivery. And now with the pandemic, delivery became a whole new level of emphasis. And it's similar as transit. The wheels should be rolling. Otherwise you're not providing these services. The asset is not making money doing its mobility task. So of course, logistics, trucking and scale, hydrogen scales very well. And what we spoke about earlier, the dollar per kilogram equivalent to gasoline equivalent is in range according to our estimates today and it's only gonna get better. So those are all important considerations and we're happy to help anybody in Hawaii or anywhere else try to understand these better, perform more work in these areas to research how a solution can be developed to meet your particular needs. So that's what we have today. The last slide is just a summary of green-grinning services where we provide project management support, design review, technical, economic modeling, coordination with vendors and other agencies, construction management, operations and maintenance support, staff training or any specialized requirements or investigations along these areas. We're happy to get involved and it's a passion of ours to help utilities and energy companies become sustainable and offer sustainable products, especially for the green-grinning transportation and Mitch is always fantastic to be on and love to be able to discuss these topics with you more and we're happy to help you in any way we can. Well, Jeff, thank you so much. This is a great set of slides, great. I mean, really good information, which I will certainly be using and I'm sure as many of our listeners will be able to use it in their businesses. And so reach out to green grid if you have questions about what we're talking about today. I think a lot of the things you covered aren't well known, they're not out there yet. And I think we need to inject them into the discussion and into the systems we have going here in Hawaii. So with that, Jeff, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Any time, Mitch. And this is Mitch Ewan saying aloha from Hawaii, the state of clean energy.


Hi everyone, it's MJ and in this video, we are going to be playing formula one fantasy mode So what we need to do is choose a whole bunch of drivers add in a constructor and hopefully our team Scores the most points. Of course, it's a little bit tricky because we do have a budget So we can't just put in the best people ever so whenever we presented with a bit of a limitation and We have some some data. I thought It would be pretty cool if we build some sort of model To just assist us in our decision. So what I'm assuming is that these values over here So this is how much it cost to put in each of the drivers or each of the teams I'm assuming that this information here is not just random that they have based it on You know actual events performance and expected results But there's another source of data that we can actually map this on to and and that's actually what I've done I've created this little model over here. I do apologize. It doesn't look very neat at all But essentially what I did is I took that values So all that monetary values in the game and I put it over here and then I took the gambling odds now The reason I took the gambling odds is because I'm also making the assumption that they're based on historical data Expected results and what we would expect is that if you've got a very high value You've got all your odds are the odds payoffs is going to be very low So the less or the cheaper you are the bigger the payoffs going to be if you somehow win because it's just you know Assumed with the likelihood. So we do expect that this to be as this one goes down This one goes up, but we do see that some of the drivers Kind of deviate a little bit around here So what we're seeing from the model is we're seeing that science is Relatively cheap and what I mean by relative cheap I mean that the value in the game have tended to undervalue him Where it is interesting is the game seems to have made Magnuson and Perez quite expensive So we're gonna go into the model and we're definitely gonna want to choose science and we're gonna want to avoid Magnuson and Perez and that like I said, we're just using two types of data putting them together to see if there is a Little bit that we can get from that. So I think what we want to do is choose We said science was was off was the most Cheapest driver and you can see 33 percent a lot of people are choosing him as well So we're gonna we're gonna bring him in now What makes this game a little bit more interesting is that you have this turbo driver and the turbo driver receives double points each week But I think the turbo driver The problem with him is that there's a little bit of a limitation in the sense that I think the turbo driver cannot be Super expensive. So the most expensive Turbo driver you can get is Gasly I think y'all we don't have to double-check that a little bit afterwards So we're gonna choose gasly simply because he is the most Well, he's the most expensive driver that we can get that is gonna give us the double points Okay, now we need to choose three more drivers While taking our budget into consideration One thing I am gonna do is choose Ferrari as my constructor over Mercedes and I can see the majority of people have done that as well And I think what we saw with Ferrari last season is that they've got all even this season now They're gonna have two good drivers Where as Mercedes really only has one drive and we can see that but us is not very much rated Both in the value and in the odds Okay, but we've got 45 million and we've got like around three more drivers to choose I Mean Hamilton is of course you really want Hamilton, but at 30.5. He's expensive. He is the favorite I want to see can I get both Hamilton and Max for stubborn, okay? No, I have I have gone over my budget Well, we still need to pick an entire other driver, so We have to choose between Max for stubborn and Hamilton I mean really really like for stubborn But I mean Hamilton is maybe the the smart one What did our model say regarding cheap drivers who else is is relatively cheap? So we want a driver who's got a low thing here. So that is saying cubica and Kivac So they I think y'all let's maybe put in Kivac just because He's super cheap. Who's cheaper between Kivac and Cubica Yeah, they're both 5.5 million there You can see 20% of the population have gone for Kivac only 18.6 have gone for Cubica, I'm not expecting Williams to be anywhere this season with Torah Rosso. I Mean, I'm surprised I'll be honest worth more than as a rookie more than Kivac So let's put in Kivac. I don't like him, but we he's cheap the model recommends it and Now we left at 40.3. Okay Let's see if we choose Hamilton We left with 9.8. Who can we get for 9.8? I mean the next big driver because we'd want to just maximize it is Grozhon, okay, so we can either go for Hamilton and Grozhon, and I just want to just double-check to the turbo points So your turbo points must be valued at 19 million or less So I mean, this is the whole reason why we've gone for for Gasly Wait, we're not finished. We're not finished. Okay, so we can either go with Hamilton and Grozhon We've left point five out or We can go with Max for Stuppin and then we have 15 million But you see if we go with Max for Stuppin and then we go with say Ricardo She's 64% of people going with Ricardo. Yeah, I kind of think Hulkenberg Personally, I think Hulkenberg is gonna beat him. But if we look at that model I Think Hulkenberg was a little bit on the expense of such I see Hulkenberg So you want this to be as low so Kubica and Kivar are cheap players Perez Magnuson and Hulkenberg are considered to be overvalued Although I think Hulkenberg. I think Hulkenberg is gonna beat Ricardo. But anyway, we could go for for Stuppin and We could go for for Stuppin and Ricardo the old teammates, but then we have a budget leftover of 3.8 million Hmm That's That's maybe not better than What Hamilton and Grosjean? It's an it's an interesting one. It's an interesting Decision that we're gonna have to go for You know what we're gonna do reason why I'm gonna go with Hamilton and The reason I'm gonna go with Grosjean is it does give us just a little bit more diversification to where is Grosjean There we go, and we've kind of utilized the best of budget So we'll have some Mercedes exposure with Hamilton We'll have some Red Bull exposure with Gasly and we'll have some Ferrari exposure with with the actual team Kivar and science. I mean, yeah, we're not expecting them to score that many points, but I think they can I mean, you know, there's the other strategy which is to go to big drivers and then then three other ones but I think we're gonna do that. I think we're gonna make that decision No, Toro Rosso is Well, they've got McLaren is one of as weaker than Haas and Alfa Romeo and Racing Point. Sure. I Don't know. We're gonna go with science the model The model told us to choose science and we want this to be an actuarial decision so we're gonna go with science and Let's see how the rest that goes. I think we click save team what should we call our team the MJ Actuary team MJ Actuarial team and it can even kind of put in spaces. So that makes it look nicer Select favorite team.  I think there is yeah, let's create a league Let's call it the Actuarial League and then you guys can join in as well Um It shouldn't let you have your only one team only one team. Okay create league Put that one in there enter and create and there we go That is the invitation code I'll put that in the description of this video and then if you guys want you can you can join the Actuarial League and Compete against me and see who knows more about formula one I highly recommend the the drive to survive show on Netflix if you've got that Check it out. It's a lot of fun. Otherwise. Yeah, let's see who chose the best team Anyway, keep well guys, and I'll see you soon. Cheers