All right. Well, so let me do that. So there I have two two copies of iron made a monopoly. So Copy number one. I am never opening. So this is like front of the box When when they bury you you're gonna get one of those drawers and that's already gonna put the monopoly and you're gonna close it Well, I don't know I'm gonna have a lot of shirts and stuff So we're gonna have to figure where everything's gonna go. But look, I'll be honest Monopoly is like a big collector's thing So if you have like an unopened monopoly Mm-hmm, I got a long order monopoly goes for like 500 bucks on eBay if it's not like Open so, you know years from now, I might have a big decision to make do I want to part with this for like a nice sum of money or Do I need to like keep it forever? Cuz I can keep the one we're gonna open forever But this my intention was to buy to have to keep one sealed So should we start actually with the wish we start with the I say let's rip this puppy open Okay, you don't even want to look at the box. You want to like jump right into this? Well, once we rip it open we can start looking at things. Okay, so this one is never being open Okay, are you using a knife or scissors? If I'm injured I need to know if the metal voices insurance covers, you know cuts or Dismemberments or anything like that like what what kind of insurance you have no insurance And you know it'd be cool to see you believe bleed live well, it'd be very metal wouldn't it it would be So unless you faint I'm not a thinker So, you know what I could do I could do a full screen on that shot hold on. Let's see if I could do this The plastic is hot the plot. Well, wait, wait, wait. Hold on I'm gonna try to get a full screen. All right, I can't see what you're doing. So I could only see my end Okay, okay, so the show the plastic is off. I want to see the plastic in your hands Kids don't play Renvay used to say that like this is not a toy. This is not a toy Let's see if I could get the other screen on the board. Okay, I think I got it. Okay. Here we go Let your hands do the talking now. All right. So do we want to go over the cover? I guess So I think the cover is kind of cool if I kind of here I'll kind of place it a little bit So it's a little bit better for everybody. So I think the cover is kind of cool You know, you have Eddie's from different generations I see book of souls Eddie. I see Sanjutsu Eddie Seven Sun Eddie Trooper Eddie front and center. You have the somewhere in time Eddie Bit of everything and then if you kind of you know, there's all kinds of planes in the background There's the Iron Maiden kind of flight 666 plane. There's the whatever is it a spitfire the ace is high plane If you look at some of the street signs, you have kind of dawning in this way Rio that way Long Beach Referring to kind of some of the live albums So, you know, I think like a lot of things if we would kind of get deep into the cover There's all kinds of probably little things here that we haven't noticed There's an arena in the background with the future past to our live and concert So the the box is pretty nice And then I'll flip it over just for the back of the box is the back of the box kind of gives, you know an overview I guess what the board looks like which we'll see live in a second. So You know, there's just different cards and on a board that looks like the properties represent the different albums There's some Eddie money We'll get into this in a second but of course the tokens the game pieces are always customized to the kind of monopoly so We take the sucker out. Maybe start the ball. Let's let's let's let's let's open her up All right, like literally I have not opened this before what does it smell like tell me what it smells like?  I'm gonna open the board Mm-hmm. Maybe we'll put this down Well before not somebody mentioned the rulebook. So first and foremost, you do have a rulebook here Yeah, no, and I guess it's the regular rules of monopoly But I will say, you know, every house I grew up in always has or visited there always seems to be different monopoly rules So let's see so, you know pretty sprawling set of instructions and it says How these are so houses and hotels are renamed arenas and stadiums Okay Game board spaces and corresponding title deed cards feature Iron Maiden albums All property values the same as the original game. Yeah You have feeling lucky cards The tokens are the tokens are an albatross an amp stack a flying helmet Niko's drum The wasted year's computer and Steve's base are the game pieces We'll see those in a second And there's the open the box cards. Those are like, you know, I guess what are the it's chance and community chest in a regular monopoly game Mm-hmm. So anyway, so like basically you have the rules the rulebook Where's the old man with a bag of money? Like what's that? What's that represented by Eddie? Let's keep going going. Okay, let's keep going later rule. So I See we have two dies which makes two dice Yeah, I'll start with the board though. So let's let's go over the board. Okay, so I'll go to the board I'll open her up. I'll put it here. Okay. That's where we gots or the big open. Oh boy You see everybody out there in the world in the internet world You see how we set this up this way you can enjoy the experience of the Open box or the unboxing. Yes on two screens. We somewhat rehearse this So and you have go like a normal monopoly board and Jimmy so I can see like each property is an album Yeah, and I can see that we start with Iron Maiden and then we go to killers And then we go to number of the beast peace of mind and power slave So I was hoping the more expensive properties would be the better albums and the cheaper properties would be the worst albums But instead they've just done it in chronological order and I let me ask you this When you go to jail is Paul Diano there just confirm that with me Well, you know what if you if you look really closely, I'll try and zoom in here. I mean is that Paul Diano the same guy is the same guy for monopoly It's a little Diano like I thought no, maybe no It's the same guy from the original Mr. Butterfingers probably didn't want to offend anybody, right? So yeah, you know, but so I kind of wish But that would have been really open to counterworms for debate like if they put like let's say the two blaze albums The two cheap properties That might not have gone over well This blaze represented on the board is his albums there. That's it. Yes. So right here the red property We have the X factor and we have virtual 11. Good. Good. I'm happy here followed by Ed Hunter So it really looks like the properties are all of the releases including live albums Including kind of box sets. Do you see made in Japan anywhere? No, you know, I have to say we go from Iron Maiden To Killers. Yeah, and then we go to number of the beast. Hey Yeah, so no made in Japan. I see peace of mind. I see power slave. Yeah, do you want me to turn the board a little? Yeah, yeah, turn the board turn the board like you turn the corner Chance is feeling lucky. Hey and community chest is open the box They could have got a little more creative on open the box We have a merch stand here. Now. I don't remember on original monopoly this space here here It's called the merch stand Wonder what it was on regular monopoly. I can't remember Merch stand I would think that's like a chance card or community chest. No, no, it was something else I think it's gonna be utilities somebody look at there. Yeah, it might be one of those things Yeah, yeah, there were utilities. It's probably utilities the merch stand like a faucet. Yeah, oh Then there's also railroads, right? You gotta remember there's railroads, too Yeah, so the railroads here seem to be airplane hinders and stuff. So it looks like Eddie Yeah, you have any force one first one one and they're different names. Oh, yeah Yeah, and then actually one of them is the green goddess. It looks like it's like a trucker of and they used to use in the old days So the green goddess the green machine our forms of transportation So but the board is a pretty sharp board. It looks like the middle of the board is kind of like a representation of the box Mm-hmm. And then like I said, you got all the album covers So, I mean, I see there's a there's a box set over there in red There's a trooper beer stand here. I'm gonna give it another another turn After see free parking is I was hoping jail and free parking that they might get a little more original and do something different Is that an electric vehicle or is that just an old-fashioned vehicle to me? It looks like a steam car Yeah, steam steam engines. It looks like a buggy Looks like a London taxi cab a red cab red. Yeah And we see that policeman, but I like a nice man. It's the same old policeman from the original monopoly. We have a trooper stand here I like that. I like that. I like that. Okay, good And then I'll give it one more turn and there's a police guy right go to jail Yeah, I see like remember in between boardwalk and park place There was always like if you landed on the spot you have to pay a lot. So here are taxes. Yes They have to pay a recording fee of a hundred dollars. Yeah Blimey Interesting, you know, I learned some some some lingo in in London at that hand beer taught me You know, you taught me Blimey and Cricky and this place is crazy than Piccadilly Circus Okay, so Jim, what do you want to do next you want to do some of the cards you want to do Uh What do you want to do what I want to do is I want to take a look at some cards Maybe we could roll a couple of we could do a couple rounds Well, we need we have stuff we need to open before we get there. Okay, but this way we can experiment, right? We got money. So we have I'm like again not you know what assets were on the British topic You know how they say exit No, but I'm sure you'll tell me Way out Jimmy stay on point with you. No, no, but way out. That's how they say exit right hand here Like we have when you're leaving a facility it says exit like that's when you exit they go way out We have money here. We have money. It looks like sinjutsu Eddie on on the fives Where's their ones in the original game? There's no ones. Uh, there are ones are tuning it. Wenzies. They're coins So we have ones uh fives Five quid we have ones Uh ones easy. Yeah I don't know what they call ones. So it's all the same Eddie on all the money And it would seem just to be uh, just different colors 10s. Yep 20s And you get the picture. I don't think any do you know, they say take out in london Or you know, they don't say take out. I went I go I need some take out. They go, what? What you talking about and go take out it's it's take away Take away. All right. Take away Makes sense, but it's weird. Okay. So I got all the money So that's the money Now we're gonna look at the properties And then I want to look at the tokens because the the the real thing that differentiates every monopoly set is the tokens the tokens. Yeah All right, so let's unpack The cards every time you unpack you lose value of your game. Well, that's why there's one that's Right there. You just like ripped open a thousand dollars. Okay. What do we got? What do we got? Okay, so First we have the we have three things here We have the open the box cards We have the feeling lucky cards. Yeah, I'm feeling lucky today.   That's very uk because in north america We only have gold and platinum albums. No, I think they have silver too. No, no It's a european thing. It's a uk thing Eddie trash the backstage area for each arena pay a fee of 25 dollars and for each stadium pay a fee of 100 dollars Get out of jail free. The door was left a jar.  That's cool Bad weather ed force one diverted go back three spaces go back to panama Sooty has been ransomed pay 15 dollars Advanced to the nearest transportation if unowned whatever if owned whatever and same thing So i'm happy to see that the chance cards are feeling lucky cards But they didn't just repeat the stuff in monopoly. It's made and themed. So that's kind of cool So those are the chance cards Which I guess see there used to be slots for them in the monopoly games. I guess we'll just put them there And then the community chest is open the box The judge bought tickets for the show get out of jail free Take the crew out for dinner pay 50 dollars to every player Trooper beer has a good year Receive 100 dollars Missed the show date lost a 10,000 dollars. Your tour mark and your tour merch is sold out collect 100 Night out with the crew pay 50 dollars per player. The venue has been upgraded collect 20 Eddie's spa day pay 100 You broke the noise curfew at the show go to jail go to wreck Oh, jeez Eddie appears in a tv ad received 25 royalties Crew members birthday pass the hat collect 10 dollars from every player Added shows to the tour collect 100 Great show you get a bonus 50 dollars Great fans double encore collect 10 Oof Eddie's rider demands pay 40 dollars per arena pay 115 per stadium That's it. Yeah, that's pretty cheap. No, but if you have like let's say you own a bunch of properties and have like three or four arenas or a stadium Yeah, could be a pretty steep tax Sold out festival advanced to go collect 200 And sold out stadium tour collect 200 So love that the cards are music and made in themed cards Okay, any comments any questions today jim? Well, you know what? Let's see. Let's take a look at the old Chat here guys. You have any questions the smell of the board Is there any sort of curiosity and there are still two dice. There's no freaky stuff Yeah, and I will say this isn't too exciting the the houses and hotels in the dice look the same as a monopoly game They're just calling them arenas and stadiums, but they're really how they look like houses and yeah That's a little bit of a disappointment that they couldn't go kind of more authentic with that So the tokens. Okay tanvir wants to see the tokens. Let's pull out the tokens, please. All right, so we have six tokens Okay, let's see here. I'm gonna turn here. Why don't you jump on jump on the show? I'll send you the link They're heavy. These are like this. This is like the real deal metal my friend heavy metal That's the way we roll These are heavy metal tokens actually couple of them are a little flimsy, but uh Couple of them are bigger. Are we waiting for tan vir? Am I gonna keep going with this? I don't know. I'll keep going. I'll invite him because it's late there. He might be in his pajamas or something All right, so the tokens we have steve's bass guitar Hey, look that's nice. So, you know, that would go right on go if you were steve's bass guitar you have Nico's drum set It's cool Better than a hat, right? You know, of course. I always like being the hat or the car Token number let to be the thumbnail Token number three is an albatross Very nice, so, you know Story of what not to do if a bird shits on you, you know, remember ramada ancient marin Okay, I like this one. This is the ace's high flight helmet Nice My big fingers are I'm scaring it Then we have You know, kind of a stack of amps And then the final token Would be the kind of the wasted years time machine I like that Some nice detail there actually I sent tone veer tan tone veer tan veer an invite Check your messenger All right So we got Stadiums we got arenas we got dice We got money with eddie on it We have feeling lucky and open the box cards We have the board we have the tokens and the only thing that we haven't yet gone through Are the property deeds? Yeah, but there are some nice cards. So you have Sinjutsu And then, you know, so you have the Image on one side and then you have kind of the information that sinju the rent is 50 dollars But it's 200 if there's an arena 600 if there's two arenas 1400 if there's three arenas 1700 with four arenas and if you have a stadium on sinjutsu 2000 Arenas cost 200 each if you're building it there and the stadiums cost 200 each So it would cost you a thousand dollars if you had to build four arenas and then a stadium So Sinjutsu is actually the most expensive property. So that's your boardwalk in park place when jutsu is boardwalk And nights of the dead because like I said, they are including They are including Live albums is your park place Okay So then I guess we keep going backwards. So then, you know, the green properties were always I I used when I played monopoly jimmy I let other people get after park place and boardwalk I like to go for like the second Yeah, the green and yellow there was still, you know, there was you know, I wasn't gonna There's it's still good real estate, you know, I I'm in kind of the real estate business and and it's still prime real estate So I think the green I was more like of the slums. I was more like the slum Slums though, they don't cost you much, but they don't really earn you much revenue, you know So I just evict everybody. Yeah, it's more of a, you know, it's just it's not worth your time So you got book of souls final frontier and the somewhere back in time compilation album Those are like the second most expensive properties gotcha I don't know why I'm putting them on the board, but I don't know places to put them Then as you round the corner back towards the beginning, we have a matter of life and death dance of death and brave new world Those are the 12 back is saying the tokens are too small Let's just let me let me see what I mean, let's put it put it in your pretty hand. I want to see what these I mean, they're let me see bring it up a little bit They are kind of small, but it could be just because of the screen too the drum set the helmets and the stack of amps And even the time machine are decent size.  I think I want to be the time machine if we play jimmy I want to be the waste of your time machine. Well if ten of your jumps on we could have a round We could play around but he's not jumping on. I don't know. I don't know what's going on over there You know what? I hated being the banker. So I don't really want to count out the money. I'm honest, but Uh to roll some dice and get going here if I continue with the cards You got ed hunter the cards are kind of spiffy. I gotta say Virtual 11 and the x-factor it's like having playing cards of every iron maiden album kind of neat Then we got a real live one. Oh, wait a minute. You know what? But there is no real dead one in the game So why why wouldn't they just do a real live dead one and there's no live at donnington either So we have no made in japan either. We have a real live one fear the dark and no prayer for the dying Are like the orange properties So, you know a little lack of authenticity there, but I guess there's only so many properties You got to cut something out Then we get i'm actually appalled that like seventh sun somewhere in time and live after death Are like relatively cheap properties. Yeah, let's bring on ten fear. Let's bring on ten fear There he is Now we can play a game now we can seriously play a game here No more more no more monkey business What's going on here hand viewer welcome to today's episode whatever he's not on yet. Hold on. We're getting No, no, I'm I'm I'm on Say parent welcome. Welcome to men behaving like children something something is something something's a miss jimmy I can I can hear you clearly can you hear me hear me clearly my check my check one two three Okay, we're ready to go. I I welcomed ten fear to today's episode of men behaving like children Okay Get out the dice. Let's play this puppy What do you want to be who do you want to be what do you want to be ten fear? Well, I missed I missed the whole token thing. So, um, okay quickly. There's a base There's a base So, yeah, so The my least favorite token because it's so small like you see it in my hand.  So that's not good. You don't want that happen Then the second smallest token but not as small is the albatross So I think anyone who knows made and well knows the significance of the albatross impressive wingspan Yeah, bruce often starting the song live with here's the story of what not to do if a bird shits on you Then I kind of I really like the rest of them. The rest of them are kind of more sturdy. I have to say so you have I missed the thimble. I missed the thimble.  This is high flight helmet Ah, that's what what's the uh Herron, what's the material is it is it do they feel heavy they feel it's not plastic It's it's metal. They're they're definitely some kind of a metal like wow, that's good. But yeah, they're they're yeah, it's they're not plastic Uh, then we have might have to get the straight away now Then we have amps. We have some amps. It's that's normal for a rock and roll monopoly set. That's pretty simple Is there a certain logo on the amp at all or is it just plain? No, because they're No product placement that there isn't Fair enough. Okay, so pick pick your um, you know nico we have a nico's drum set But there is no endorsement on it. There is no endorsement, but that's a nice. I have to say that's a pretty nice piece And then my personal favorite my personal favorite Is the wasted years time machine That will be yours. That will be yours. I'm gonna be the bass tanvir. What do you like to be? I'll be at the albatross Oh They have an impressive wingspan, so I'll be the little bass when we have a bass We have an albatross and we have a time machine Perfect. Let me get these properties off my board Okay, everyone shall be in k-man.  Oh, you got to get the k-man on You got you got to get Hey, man was railing against the commerciality. Oh, jeez Stopped it. He's not happy with k-k and he's not happy man. Let's see. Let's get you on Guys when I play Monopoly at home the uh, the wife and the kids rally against me. So, um, Let's make sure that doesn't happen here Well, I'm curious to play with you guys because I don't like And whenever we played at home the kids wound up in tears and the wife wound up mad at me I actually don't like playing Monopoly with my family because it always winds up in a fight always. I'm apparently obnoxious. I'm a bad winner Um, my son steals money from my daughter. You can see that. Yeah So what's different then parents? My wife isn't she's a nurse. She's not a business person So she's very kind of emotional and caring when she plays and I'm ruthless and heartless. So it's just Game night at my house never goes well Yeah, my my wife is uh, it the gordon gecko comes out of my wife. I have to say That's me. That's me. So and then I hope you call before about that I love the feeling lucky cards to replace chance And the open I'm ready. I'm warming up. It's warming up. It's cold. It's cold in this basement Do I need to hear Tanvir? Tanvir, we have ac in canada. Yeah, we have ac air conditioning in canada You brits. You don't have any ac. I walk into the airport.  I'm sweating a storm Everywhere I go. I went in the pub. I wanted to enjoy a meal at a pub. I'm sweating. I left It was too hot Do I actually have to count up money for you guys or can we just kind of simulate this and not we can we just pretend We all have money Because yeah, we pretend we're gonna pretend Okay, I didn't realize you were bang prompt parent, but if that's the case, you know, I don't I don't want to be Listen to a charity event or Yeah, there we go. Yeah, it could be like a charity event. There we go Do we want to roll to see who goes first or we just want to see if k-man's gonna jump on k-man I sent you a link and messenger go there And he was watching you think you're not just doing this on a wing in a prayer Well, I mean he's got own up to what he said about k-k's priest What did he say about k-k's priest? Don't wind him up. What what didn't he say about k-k's priest? But that's what we're talking about here. I think here. We're just playing monopoly k-man has been banned from tim roper owens's page from k-k's priest page Really? Oh They're such thing as the opposite of the president of the fan club. That's what k-man is. All right. Okay. Let's just begin Let's let's let's get this We just want to say no, no, let's just we're gonna go this way.  Yeah, I'm gonna roll. Well, unless you have dice there that you want to roll. Do you have any dice?  I mean capable Just roll roll for tan beer Roll go on kander got a four and the avatar.  I want to buy it. I want to buy it My family rule we buy everything anytime. All right, jimmy is buying power slaves. Let's pretend I bought it We'll pretend that you bought it. I'm gonna find just put a house on it I mean you have what a house to you have three properties.  We're gonna go jimmy owns power slave jimmy No, what my favorite thing was doing when somebody had two properties Buying the third so they couldn't build Uh arena, that's just that's just being mean though parent because then you could broker exchanges then you could broker exchanges It's okay parent. It's okay. Come on. Let it go. Let it go. We're just doing one round. It's my turn. Okay He buys on his properties straight out I didn't mind I just landed on his damn property. See that's why I bought it. That's why I bought it I though Tanvir is minus 200 you see jim jimmy did the clairvoyant then that was the clairvoyant moment So I owe you eight dollars in rent jimmy. You you are as well. You know what? You just uh just use your tap card there You know if anything is we're one turn in and we're all negative money tanvir is negative 200 because he had to pay a fee Don't don't tell the missus. Keep it down. Keep it down. Yeah, you're negative 120 because you bought the property Although you got eight dollars in rent for me, and I'm honest the eight dollars rent. So we're all okay. We're all negative Okay, we're all parent parent. I got a question here. How much is the maiden? How much did you pay for the maiden game? so uh I saw it online for 50 dollars 49 99 us in a lot of places But I found a canadian online shop that had for 44 99 canadian Which is only like 35 dollars us. That's not too bad And it's only 20 dollars and pounds Yeah, and because I'm in canada the shipping was only eight dollars for two sets So I think I think with tax and shipping it came out to 106 canadian for two sets Okay, I'm looking up ham. I bet it's a lot more over here I'm I'm I reckon it's gonna be about 55 pounds at least Yeah, well, I was surprised I was able to find it for 44 99 canadian because it was 49 99 us So that's uh, I I found quite a deal and I will say a lot of the canadian shops They probably didn't get massive quantities But a lot of them were sold out a lot of the canadian collection collection stores collector stores were sold out of this And even I don't know if it's on amazon.ca But uh, I found a site called gameshack.ca based out of toronto Where I actually got it in less than a week and they seemed to have a good quantity at a good price Perrin Is it 10 years turn? It's 10 years turn. I was just he was researching. It is here actually here at retail I'll tell you how much it is here in pound sterling It's uh, you can get it for about 38 pounds, which isn't bad actually that that's sort of That's you know, because they tend to be slightly more than the regular monocly sets these exclusive ones. So yeah Yeah, definitely is a bit more expensive But again, I bought two with having the option of five years from now probably being able to sell it for five Never gonna sell it. I know My wife opens my closet and like 30 iron maiden shirts fall out and like yeah, I just know probably never gonna They're probably gonna be in my coffin when I go I'm like the opposite tan veered like I get stuff and I go I'm gonna keep this and never unwrap and I just unwrap it I I still have my shirt unwrap everything. I have my shirt from the somewhere in time tour I I have I have all of these items the the power slave shirt is like almost disintegrated But my somewhere in time tour shirt, which I bought in 87 Still is actually in fairly good condition. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm sure I could sell those I I don't even want to look at eBay with some of these shirts that I have cost Uh, because I just don't even want to be tempted. But like you said, I probably wouldn't be tempted. I don't think Okay, it's next Saturday Maiden at the O2 so Lucky lucky. I feel I feel I bought that ticket. Well, I did. I bought it last year. But wow Stefan's going isn't Stefan going parent. Yes, Stefan is on his way to I'm not I'm not sure where he stopped Is he coming to London or is he saying? He'll be in London, but I know he left for Europe today. I don't know where We'll find out but uh, he's going to a show someplace. He's going to Scotland. He's he's gonna go see a show there I believe okay. Yeah, he's worried if you might run into to K-man So back so back to the game. So it's tan veers turn. I'm rolling for tan veer A good roll. He's really not getting big numbers one two three four five We're all on power slave. I guess we all love power slave. I love classic Pay up everyone. You now oh, you're really in the hole. You are 200 and now you owe the slum lord here eight dollars in rent Oh, I'm asking Stefan. Are you going? I think he's in the air Jimmy I'm rolling for you By the way, where is o2? Where is the where's the um arena or whatever? It's the o2 arena and it's in um, well, it's in east london It's in strafford Jimmy, you gotta go. That's where we're supposed to go. You know what happened. Actually, it's in Greenwich It's in Greenwich, isn't it the friend shows you so it's very which is close to strafford Yeah, Jimmy you rolled we would have been right next to where am I if we'd if we'd gone to um The horse and car that was right. That was pretty close. That was in strafford What are we got there? You landed on no prayer for the dying under no No way shape or form what I buy no prayer for the dying. I want to buy it right now Are you buying it? Yeah, of course. I'm buying it by everything.  She buys every property. She likes We're only going around once muzzle body a lot of money It's easy to be generous with the imaginary cash. That's right. All right, no prayer for the dying So jimmy now owns two properties and it's my turn Poor tender hasn't even had a chance to buy property yet.   I I forgot it. I know it's difficult pairing your two rolling for all of us Good risk action there parents One we had an active adolescent Tamvir landed on open the box so you're I'm gonna take the first card off the top your card says The judge bought tickets for the show Get out of jail free So you have to get out of jail free card in your possession tamvir So if I get I'm not in jail yet, but I'm you're not but if you're destined to be in jail By the way, okay. Stefan's going to noddingham. Where's noddingham? Nottingham is in in the mid-country. So Manchester No, it's Birmingham It's quite close to Birmingham. I mean, there's not a land in london, right? I think he's got a land in london No, it's not I mean, these are relative terms because you know One of your states is perhaps a lot larger than the whole of the uk, but nottingham I would say it's um Two hours drive away from one not even yeah two hours drive north of london. So um, so it's birmingham Birmingham is uh, perhaps An hour and a half for an hour and 40 minutes. Okay. Yeah, all right jimmy it's your turn again Okay, go ahead roll seven Seven we're gonna get a lot of people commenting now on the uk geography on your comment section You landed on virtual 11. Of course. I did Not a good place to land give me Not a great album to be honest. Okay, jimmy castle. Good evening candy candy We played this game you could have jumped on if you jumped on the show a little bit earlier But anyways, it doesn't matter we're just going one round and that's it All right, you're that guy see this is why my family rule is you can't buy anything till you cross go once because there's always that There's always that one person in the game who's gonna buy everything they land on and you're gonna have no If this was real money, you'd almost have no money left. Oh, you're not a good loser. Are you parent? This is right. I parent. I do agree with that rule. You got to go around once Open it up my turn. Okay. I got a nine. I'm finally out of your shadow Big numbers parent big numbers nine seven eight nine Oh, I landed on It's the equivalent of a railroad so it's like an airline so I can buy one of the eddie planes But you know what? I'm not gonna buy it. I don't want that for $200 Don't want it Saving it pretty good. What are you saving it for? We're almost finished a game. We're halfway through We're not playing the whole game Aaron. It's just one round, right? It's early here Why is that with friends tonight? I it's it's only 6 12 over here by the way Yeah, it's 11 20 here in the UK. I'd say yeah, your wife's gonna be like what in god's creed earth are you doing? She's marking papers At the moment in the other online if you're canadian friends. She's gonna thank you for You roll those dice Call me roll it well. You got doubles. You're gonna get to go again. Nice. Is that the rule of monopoly? You go twice when it's doubles You do but I think up to three times then you go to jail. Isn't it a rule and and It's not the rule. Wow. You guys are good The striester here is getting more rent. You land that on virtual 11. So you owe jimmy 18 dollars in rent Oh, I know there's no money bad guy anymore because gene simmons owns the trademark to the money bag man Right, doesn't he?   What did I do? What was my crime? What was my crime? You just showed up at the jail. You're just visiting. It must have been an outstanding warrant No, but here's the good news.  No, I have the scars. I have the scars. I've already been in there You'll be my soap. Let me put you on the outside of the jail This is jimmy with a five one two three four five Buy a trooper stand. What happens on the trooper stand? So, uh, no, you can't you can't buy it. It's uh, But you you get a hundred and fifty dollars So you Hang on hang on Why is it that yeah, what's going on here parent? Yeah, well, I don't remember what that spot is on a monopoly board. What? What's going on? I'll have to look He's making money. He's He's making money. We're losing money. He's the host of the show, but it's just following him around the whole board. What's going on? Six perfect I landed on the Somewhere back in time compilation album and buying back See it's expensive, but I go for the expensive property.  Count your pennies. They turn do you have pennies there? We have we have pennies. Yeah, I mean it's turning more into a cashless society. But yes, we still have pennies Candor, don't say that or we're gonna get on a big show. We've got we've got rid of all our pennies. Yeah We did cashless Yeah, don't go to cashless I get to go again because I roll doubles But we don't have pennies and I got an eight. Oh, this is good. One two three four five six seven eight Senjutsu, which is the equivalent of boardwalk So while jimmy is buying all the cheap property. I have Two expensive properties now Love it. Look at parent. Look at parent Tycoon, this is look at this guy.  I've been called worse I've been called worse. I have to say No one has crossed pass go yet, but myself but jimmy it's all about this album. It's a nice jimmy It's all about this one. That's right You old guys in that album All right guys. We're not old. We're older Older that's a bon jovi song. I'm not old just older just older it is Don't say that on this channel All right, all right a big nine for tan gear Tan very young decision to make you've landed on a real live one. Is that something you'd want to purchase? Terrible record if I've landed on it. It might be dead now. Perhaps it's not live anymore I question why it's not a real live dead one, but for whatever reason it's just a real live one Or why is it not live at donnington because that also came out in the same era, but that you know, so Are you are you obtaining this property? Are you declining? I I'm gonna be reckless. I'm I'm buying Fine. Yeah, I think it's important that I mean, I've got minus money, but I'm still buying Look this way if you're behind us, I'm living the American dream property So a real live one. So jimmy owns three cheap properties Kimi don't care And I own two expensive properties Like that. Okay, jimmy you're up jimmy you're out. Here we go Oh big 10 Recording he pay a hundred dollars.  Now you own another hundred But what am I gonna do? I'm gonna have to sell myself You you roll 10 I'm gonna cover it, mate.  I'm past go I get collect 250 But you also got an open the box card. So I'm gonna open the box card open the box You get what's in the box. Well, and you also got I get at a jail free card Nice. I think you're ready to shuffle the cards at the start of the game. I'm running free my friend So you I'll put your get out of jail for you with your property Okay, you guys roll for the last time there or you're most I'm not sure I was last. So this is the last roll. So I'm gonna roll It was stretching this one One two three. So I also passed. I think people are getting a good idea of what the game's like That's the whole point. I think so I passed go. I got 200 But I also landed on the open the box and I have to take the crew out for dinner So it's going to cost me $50. So I only collect and that's cheap considering the And didn't we say that being the last move that would actually be a real thing. So Perrin, that means you owe me and jimmy dinner. Yes Handler if we're all together at the same place at the same time, it'll be a pleasure to buy you dinner Okay, that's a that's the spirit on your turf or my turf So any any questions out there jimmy any more questions about you know, I had better fish and chips in Montreal than I didn't Britain I'm not getting back in the country now jimmy We're gonna take him to the burgundy lion, of course, we're gonna take him there. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's good The burgundy lion. Yeah, I try it's the Montreal take on an English style pub Although maybe if you come to Montreal, you don't want an English style pub. You might want to do something more He's been to Montreal by the way. He's been to Montreal before I have I well I've spent many a night there. Yeah Yeah, it's a great place. It must have changed somewhat though. This was no, it's the same early early 90s Yeah, the uh, yeah st. Catherine street That's right. Yeah, that's uh the main street or one of them as an adolescent teen neat.  It like the streets were jammed There was there was so many like I didn't realize how many people there were She know what hurts more to me. What she didn't win the award What oh, she didn't win.  So whenever I played monopoly monopoly, like my brother was the type who just threw everything in there I have to cut it away meticulously. So we're ready to play the next game I would just like kind of take the board and just like pour everything in the box All right on that note. Yeah, it's time for supper tan beer it's time for nae nae time for milk and cookies All right guys, it's always a pleasure. Thank you


Plain and simple, the problem of male sexual assault in the military is real. But no one needs to face the trauma alone, because you are not alone. Sexual assault and coping with the aftermath is one of the most intense personal battles a man can face. We know men in the military are almost three times more likely than women to characterize their sexual assault as hazing. Some men experience this as a grab or a grope. For others, it's something more intrusive. Sexual assault is real, and it's like surviving combat. Men in the military train for attacks from enemy forces, but are unprepared to deal with these types of attacks. This is mostly because these unwanted experiences are likely to come from someone they know and even trust. For nearly 60% of men, sexual assaults happen where they feel safest, at a military installation or on board a ship. And for well over a third of military men, sexual assaults happen off base. But there is help, there is a battle plan. There are resources you need to know about, and support is just a call or a click away. You can reach out confidentially to people ready to talk to warriors like you. They've helped others who've been there, men like you, who've gone on to combat their concerns and strengthen their resiliency. They know first hand about stigma and trauma.  They know sexual assault is not only a woman's issue, and they also know about survival. It's important for you to know that you are not alone. Other men have overcome the traumatic effect of combat conditions and of sexual assault. However, everyone who has experienced this crime also had to consider taking the first step. They had to summon a warrior's courage to acknowledge that sexual assault is not okay and decide to talk to someone. People are starting to speak up more than ever before. The number of official sexual assault reports received last year by the DOD increased. Troops understand that now there's dedicated leadership and calls to action in the DOD for reporting and protection. Still, sexual assault in the military is underreported. Why? One reason is because men mistakenly think it isn't serious enough to bother with. Or that the perpetrator only did it that one time. To him. We're here to say no. It happens. To more men than it should. And that some perpetrators do it many times hoping the shame and embarrassment will silence those who should not be silenced. Thankfully, we have trained professionals to guide you.  As well as the 24-7 anonymous safe helpline available by phone and online. Plus, there's an app to help you check your health and confidential group chat services. There are also other assistance and private consultation programs available to you. We live by a code in the military. It's called the Uniform Code Military Justice, or UCMJ. The UCMJ is the law in the military that prohibits certain behavior.  Sexual contact without your consent is against the law, regardless of the situation or who is doing it. The UCMJ applies to all members of the U.S. armed forces, everywhere. It also outlaws sexual harassment and retaliation. It's in place to ensure everyone who serves can do so in a climate of dignity and respect. It's said that every journey begins with a first step. The sexual assault prevention and response program can help you do that. In fact, your first step can be as private and confidential as you'd like it to be. Talking to a SARC or a SAPRA victim advocate can help you see what resources are out there. They can help you plan and work out what's right for you. You can make an unrestricted report in work with law enforcement, or you can make a restricted report without triggering an investigation and keep the matter confidential. Both of these options give everyone who reports a sexual assault confidential access to health care, victim assistance and spiritual support. There's also legal counsel to help you exercise your rights and navigate the military justice system as well as counseling services to help empower you every step of the way. Of course, we all want to stop sexual assault in its tracks. We want to stop it before it begins. But that can only happen when people are willing to take a stand, speak up and refuse to be silent, because change will never happen until we all have the courage to do something about it. Our commitment is to let you know there are options and resources, and most importantly, support. No one should have to experience sexual assault as part of their service to America. When you look to your left and right information, those by your side should be the people you trust, both on the battlefield and off. Demand the respect you deserve. With the same level of engagement you uphold as a member in the U.S. military charged to serve your country.  When it comes to sexual assault, speaking up fuels change.


We have just about an hour, which is really great, because we are accompanied here by three very well-respected attorneys, and who are known for their intelligence as well as their loquaciousness. So we will give each of them a few minutes to introduce themselves as well as their areas of expertise. I want to invite you all. We have some topics we're going to cover, but if you have any questions for the panelists, you are very welcome to tweet them at me at jory.com on Twitter, and I'd be happy to work those into the conversation. We have to say, as Wendy likes to tell me, that these lawyers are not your lawyers, so bear that in mind. Definitely, if you have specific questions related to your projects, you should retain your own counsel. And friends, our safe word today is amicus brief, so if we're going on too long, we can use that to just give to the next question.  Hi, I'm Jamie Clark. I grew up in Minnesota. I live in LA now. I am from and currently the general counsel of the open standards and open source group Oasis, which created a lot of stuff over the last 20 years or so, although not quite as much as Wendy's group, who's been terribly prolific. We probably lived mostly in the e-commerce and structured documents area, so if you've heard of Oasis, you've heard about it either because of security stuff, like SAML or Stix and Taxi, or you've heard about it because of structured e-government stuff like open document format. I happened into this because when I was a baby lawyer a long time ago, I had some clients come to me and say, so I got some salesman from a large company that wanted to sell me all this electronic stuff, and I don't have to use paper anymore. I can reduce it all to records and have it all be electronic, only I just don't know if any of that will work if I go to the court and say, Your Honor, here's my contract. I have shown this paper or this tape or something. Does that work? Is it enforceable? And in 1998 or so, it wasn't. So I got dragged into about 15 years of trying to make sure electronic signatures actually were recognized as legal signatures, which as you know is kind of old hat now, but boy were courts confused by those things in the first place. And so eventually I went pro, went to my wife and say, honey, can I go work for a foundation and take a pay cut of about nine-tenth of my salary and do cool internet stuff for the rest of my life? And she said, oh, fine if you have to. So here I am, working for Oasis, mostly helping keep their open source and open standards programs on the straight and narrow and kind of doing things in ways that are cooperative and usually not illegal and moral or fattening. We are all lawyers in different roles. And I just want to say our job is actually pretty well predicted. I mean, you could actually do a UML chart for our job because the idea is as a package, we're supposed to take all those crazy bad things can happen to you and roll them up into black boxes and give you rules and suggestions and guidelines and templates for how to do your thing without having to think about us. And then we're supposed to basically disappear. Basically if facilitators and lawyers and rules people and license people do a good job of creating your community and helping you guide through stuff and figure out what to avoid, then you can just go off and be doubts and work on stuff and have committees and cooperate and never have to crack a rule book or a Robert's Rules or a procedure thing or a license. We really ought to be just making it possible for people to collaborate in a safe space without running into, you know, multiple kinds of legal problems. So if we do our job well, hopefully we become invisible. So far, not so good. Yeah, usually refer to us as an API to the rest of the legal system where hopefully you don't have to worry about the implementation details. Sometimes it does leak through. So hi, I'm Luis Villa. I am an attorney, former programmer. I got involved in my baby lawyer story is that I was at Zimium, which some of you may remember as a Linux desktop start-up in the very distant past. We got acquired by Novell. I was involved in the diligence there and dealing with Novell's lawyers and I naively, arrogantly thought, oh, I can do better than this. So anyway, since then I've been slowly learning how wrong that was. First at Mozilla, then for a while at Greenberg Charg, big law firm working with many of you probably work for companies that were my clients then, then at Wikimedia and now at a start-up called Tidelift. What we do at Tidelift is we are building a platform to help open source developers get paid for making open source work better. We believe that you can think of it almost as a red hat for the rest of the stack where we make things more secure, more reliable, we make the legal stuff go more smoothly and in exchange enterprises pay us for that and we pay the actual developers who are doing the work, right? The original open source developers, not some random schmo in the cloud or a contractor, but the people who actually created the value because we think open source has created literally hundreds of billions of dollars worth of value and it's time for open source developers to capture even a tiny little fragment of that if that can be done, then we will all be better off, right? Both the developers who capture some of that value and hopefully the companies that are our customers by making it a little more robust. My interest in this stuff has always been about licensing and about how people work together and licensing is a way that that happens, they're not the only way. So yeah, I guess, yeah, come with that. Thank you. I'm Wendy Seltzer. I am Strategy Lead and Counsel at the World Wide Web Consortium W3C. I got there through a winding path of interest in law and open source and in the early days of fighting the copyright term extension and copyright claim overreach. I founded the Chilling Effects Clearinghouse project now known as Lumen Database tracking notice and takedown requests and giving people the legal information to help them fight back against misguided requests. And like Lewis and Jamie, my interest has been in the ways that law can help creative people do the things that they want to do without the law getting in the way, whether that's artists creating works that build upon the creative works of others and add new things to our cultural discourse, fighting some of the copyright restrictions or coders trying to work together to develop interoperable platforms that anyone can use without paying patent royalties to someone who comes in asserting that everything you've made is an infringement of their patent. I think law can actually help in creating and reinforcing common infrastructure. So the best uses of law I think of are things like patent commitments and copy left places where people agree not to assert legal claims against one another but to pool their resources and create opportunities for them and others to build value on top of this shared infrastructure. So at W3C I work on our process and our patent policy to help make that work for the ways that people are developing web standards. So that sets us up. Let me say one thing. Wendy's way too shy. Wendy is on the board of directors of Tor. She was one of the early staff members of EFF. I mean I just try to get cool by standing around her. So read her resume. She's got an incredible background. We're both basically the legal people at two large standards consortiums but she's the cool one. Well you get to keep that one. Agreed. Plus one. Wendy. Badass. You've also set us up really nicely to talk about a text that has been kind of making the rounds quite a bit in the open source world and also among your community as well which is the Eleanor Ostrom's work on governing the commons. And we have talked a lot about sort of the commons common infrastructure support but then there's also this idea of the tragedy of the commons that is doomed to fail. And we started with a really lovely conversation last night. You said it really well Louis that not all commons are tragic. I wonder if you could introduce us to that. Yeah sure. So I mean I think one way that we think of ourselves is as engineers of healthy commons. And there's this I think for a long time particularly in the U.S. but globally a lot of economists have pushed this vision of the tragedy of the commons and that all commons ultimately are overrun. The people take too much and give too little. And I wanted to set the table a little bit for today's conversation by saying that actually Eleanor Ostrom who won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 2009 I believe devoted her career to studying all the commons that aren't tragic, right, that do succeed. And she identified over 900 commons in her research. Often they were water commons in fact some of them originally in LA. And I then spent a career and the careers of many grad students identifying common themes, right. What are things that actually make those commons work? And I'm going to go through and highlight a few of these and they are all going to sound very familiar to you because you're going to have seen them in the communities that you are part of that work well. You're going to have seen them. They're going to ring a bell, right. So one thing that she talked about is clearly defined boundaries. You have to know who's in and who's out, right. Modularity is the word that we use for this in our space, right. We know who's participating and how they participate in a way that's very clear for everybody. There's proportional equivalence between benefits and costs. In other words, you don't want people who are purely free riding. You want to have hopefully some way for them to contribute. She talks about monitoring. You have to know how it's being used. This is something frankly that open source maybe doesn't do so well and could learn from, right, where we have a sense of, we have a sense of our stars on GitHub and our NPM counts, but that's maybe about it, right. She talks about fast and fair conflict resolution, right. The more clear things are, the better for everybody. This is one of the things that we try to bring in in our work is making sure, and one of the things I'm most proud of in my career is the Mozilla public license version two, where it's a copy left, but it's a copy left with very clear boundaries. A couple others that I think I'll skip over here, but the point that I wanted to drive home is that there are patterns that we can know and follow in making healthy communities. This is not magic. It's not something that we have to reinvent all these wheels, and hopefully that's something that lawyers can help with as you all focus on the technology. Let me contextualize that a little bit. What's the point of that list? Well, it got Lin Ostrom, the Nobel, and that's nice, but also you'll find a bunch of public policy issues. You'll find WTO principles about standards and what's a real standard and what's a fake standard. You'll find accreditation bodies in both open source and open standards that test bodies to say, okay, are we going to let you just submit yourself to other places? Are governments going to include yourself in their procurement requirements? And they test a lot of those same conditions. Furthermore, those are the preconditions to fairness. If you're putting an effort, are you likely to get something out of it? Are you likely to get railroaded? Are you likely to get bigfooted? The simple way to look at that stuff from your standpoint, whether it's not just in Node.js, which is fairly mature now and has a pretty good governance system so far, but in any open source or open development shared project is, if you have that stuff there, if you can detect fair conflict resolution, modularity, transparency, yada, yada, yada, then you're probably in a good place and your work's probably going to work out pretty well. Or at least you're going to get a fair shot. If those things are not present, if you're designing a community and you haven't provided for that, or if you're in a place and those things, the project has a very strong chance of failing. So you might think of them almost as health indicators for open shared projects, which includes, you know, standard stuff like Wendy's Organization of Mine and ISO and ANSI and everybody else have been doing for 34 years, but also includes the next open source project created tomorrow. Jamie, one other thing that you had pointed out was that, you know, in a similar vein that standards development organizations kind of get evaluated on the same principles. I wonder if you can speak a little bit more to that. Well, we've been doing some interesting engineering lately because the traditional sources of open development like open standards groups like Wendy's and mine have all been under, we think, good market pressure to adopt open source methods and tools. And so you wouldn't have seen any, you wouldn't have seen a lot of SourceForge material in the mainstream of a W3C recommendation or Oasis standard 10 years ago. There was some because we've always had our standards sort of supported by and SourceForge pre-Github open source builds as kind of proofs of concept. But in terms of where the actual, you know, the canonical standard lives, now you can go to Github and find a lot of them for W3C or Oasis and increasingly even some of the ISOs and the Fuddy-Duddies, I'm sorry, like IEEE are trying to find ways to put their stuff there because that's where people want to find it. You know, I mean, do you have an SPDX tag on your standard? Well, if you don't, if you're taking, you know, your comments against the standard and you're not getting them as PRs, then a lot of people won't know where to find it or know what to do with them or be able to, you know, communicate that in a modern development environment. So we are kind of fishing in the same streams now. There is a difference which I think is worth mentioning and this is not about licensing which we'll get to later. Standards have the benefit of having 20 or 30 years of experience with government and large company procurement. People kind of know, institutional adopters kind of know we're a safe place to borrow material and so if something is created as a standard, you know, you don't get a lot of flak from some European Commissioned Department that wants to adopt it because they're comfortable with standards. You know how to do that. The whole web accessibility movement, which was just practically missing from some of the early parts of the web, got started as a consortium project, W3C and now it has been readopted and picked up and enacted its law in Europe and everybody's guidelines and everything, but basically the thing that made it comfortable for large agencies and large governments and large companies to broadly adopt it because of the stability of having an infrastructure like W3C's approval process to rely on.  The history of procurement of open source work has been spotty because a lot of lawyers and a lot of companies were very standoffish about it at first. It seemed as a more chaotic process. Its licensing was regarded as not as clear and not as reliable and so open source as it matures is finding a better kind of frame within procurement as a safer place. For us at Oasis, we are now actually creating some open standards using open source licenses and so it's been sort of interesting to take that stuff back to an ISO or a procurement agent and say, yeah, it's a standard but it's also open source and yes, that's okay and it won't bite you, which is kind of a new concept for a lot of traditional users. But what I want to convey here is that there's a sanctioning aspect. There's a operating according to known rules and procedures and licenses so that people know that as a source of whether it's code, specs, models, or APIs that you're a safe place from which users can widely adopt your stuff. That sense of how to run things safely and clearly and with known licensing and known consequences and known boundaries is hugely important when the people who we talk to come to us and say, hey, I heard there's this thing, there's this module from something called the Node.js Foundation that does this yada yada thing which I've never heard of. Can I use it? Is this as safe as if I went and used an ISO standard? Bottom line, you want the answer to be yes. You know, one thing that may make that really concrete, lawyers are like programmers. You could do a whole great panel just on analogies between lawyers and programmers, but one way that I think there's this nobody ever got fired for buying IBM and in the same way we as lawyers seek to say, ah, nobody ever got fired for choosing this license or choosing this standard spotty, right? Where it's a well-accepted, everybody knows. Maybe you don't know the details, right? There are a lot of lawyers who use a lot of open source licenses who could not actually explain to you how they work, right? But because they're well understood, they're well, they know that other lawyers know, and so there's that network effect of learning around these things. Good, Wendy. Yeah, and I think that serves as a way of sort of division of expertise that programmers don't have to be experts in the licensing conditions or in all of the possible governance structures that could be used. They can take patterns from organizations that have done some of that work, found patterns that work well, and or, you know, relied upon that work in legal enforcement, that work for government regulation, and that work for communities that, you know, our process, W3C's process is often accused of being too long and unwieldy and too detailed, but at the same time it saves people from reinventing that structure every time they're trying to make a new decision. Yes, sometimes you may need to reinvent something because conditions have changed, but if you're doing something that's been done before, the patterns that worked well in the past may well serve you too. And so that's low friction, low barrier to reuse helps get the focus on writing the best spec, making the best security considerations and privacy and accessibility and strong interoperability and testing and the things that we need to get a clear base of running code. So I want to ask about the importance of having multiple stakeholders, but you actually just touched on something, because we are speaking to a room of developers and programmers, and these documents are written for lawyers. What does a developer need to know about their open source license? What's the small thing? Well, there are two key bundles of rights that are included in most licenses, the copyrights and the patents, and copyright is a protection for ideas fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Your code is copyrightable, and those using it need a license that permits them to copy it as they do when they use or modify or run the code. And patents, which are the idea, the function of code and anyone can claim, well, the inventor can claim protection of the functionality even in something that somebody else implemented. And so a lot of open source licenses and a lot of standards bodies work to develop various ways of pooling patent protections or defensive rights so that when, so for example, a W3C, we have a royalty-free patent policy. Anyone who contributes to a, participates in the development of a specification commits that they will not assert patents on so-called essential claims to that spec. That even if they have patents in their cupboard, they won't assert them against somebody who's trying to make an interoperable implementation of a spec. The significance there is that if you're doing something in Wendy's shop under that patent policy, not only is everybody promising that you can use, but also they're promising that they won't sue you if you use the other guy's contribution. So if Wendy, Louie and Joy are our committee, each of us may promise that we will let you use our contributions, duh, but also if there's a final product, you come out of a process like the standards process, and this is true in a couple of open source projects, but not most.  This is a significant improvement in terms of stability, and so for example, ripped out of the news yesterday. Anybody watch Twitter? See Jack Dorsey saying, oh gosh, you know, I've just realized that maybe there should be a multi- company standard for tweets or for social media anyway. Duh, duh, okay. And you know, I mean, that's great, good for him. And without any comment other than that, I would love to see something like that happen. I'll just point out that W3C had a project on that like what, eight years ago? I mean, Evan Promedu made it up, who's up here, by the way, made up status net maybe 10 years ago now and worked out a system for a while, and it became an activities at W3C, and they went through all the things. Basically, that whole idea got laundered through a process of multiple stakeholders and multiple contributors and final licenses, and so basically, yeah, Jack, we already have one of those. Now, maybe it'll be adapted, maybe something else will be better, but my point is you are better off when you start from something that's been established through a process with multiple stakeholders, which is your point, and with some kind of stable understanding about the licenses, which is your point. And there are a lot of good things out there that have come from that process, which is why we're all advocates of reuse, not reinventing the wheel every time and refighting all of the licensed battles.  Yes, yeah. There's really one thing you should know, and that is who else is using it, right? Like, if you only know one thing, we are, and I say we here, both about programmers and about lawyers, we are herd animals. And so the idea that, you know, it's actually, there was a time when I first got involved in all this stuff, the, you know, everybody knew all the licenses, right? Like, literally to become a Debian developer, which was sort of, in some sense, the spiritual forerunner of being, of having a package on NPM, you literally had to pass a test to show that you knew all this stuff about all of the licenses, right? And in some ways, that was good. Everybody was an expert. Everybody had deep knowledge. And in other ways, that really got in the way of actually doing the thing we want to do, which is actually write some code, right? And I think in some ways, in some ways there's a sense of something, there's some loss there, right? But it's also, I think, you know, simply looking around the room and being like, you know what, the entire rest of the industry has been using the BSD license for 30 years, and it hasn't melted down yet. Like, that's actually a pretty good proof point for like, actually maybe we can probably keep using it for the next 30 years, and it probably won't. Now, if you get, if you mind me a drink tonight, I will tell you all the ways in which it might melt down, but that's for another conversation. Doom and gloom. But I think, so this came from Twitter, but I think there's a bit of attention here, right, where we want to simplify things enough and just say, don't worry about it, developer community, just, you know, it's okay, we got it covered. But at the same time, we want to make sure that these communities are like, you know, knowledge is empowering. Like, we want them to feel like this is knowable to them.  Like, really, is it just, you know, pick? Well, I think if you're in a company, talk to your company's lawyers. If you're working on your own, talk to a friendly lawyer, and think about what it is that you or your organization are trying to protect. What are you trying to create and what legal structure helps you to do that? And, you know, we have big companies and small companies and individuals who contribute to open standards and who contribute to that royalty-free pool because what they want to protect is the ability to interoperate and the ability to work with others in a safe environment where all of them know that none of them is going to pull a patent out of their back pocket and undermine this web we've created. And, yeah, there's room for patents and there's room for proprietary stuff on top of that stack. You have the core interoperable web and then you have optimizations that people can patent and applications that people can sell on top of that. And, you know, over time, the core of the common royalty-free piece grows and there are new opportunities further out on the edge to develop something proprietary. And, you know, that, you know, grow the interoperable core and build something of your own on top is a powerful strategy and it can be a good strategy for selling your services, for selling your products, for expanding the value that you provide and create. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the key really is understanding what it is you want to do, right? If this is a small piece of, I don't want to say throw away JavaScript, right? But we know that there are a lot of modules on MPM that were a sort of weekend hack and are never going to be more than a weekend hack. And in that case, putting it under the same license that everybody else uses on MPM, BSD here, MIT, something like that, so that everybody else just uses it in the same way they're used to is probably going to achieve your goals, because your goals for publishing a weekend hack are like, I hope it's useful to somebody. And, you know, and if it is great and if it's not, I'm not going to worry about it, right? But if you're like trying to start a business or you are already part of a business and you're trying to work with other businesses, then things get more complicated and you have to ask deeper questions. You know, I will say there's a spectrum here of not knowing anything on one side actually going to law school on the other side. Do not recommend that. If you're thinking of that, I will buy you the drink and we'll discuss tonight. You know, and somewhere in between there are a lot of good resources. In particular, I really like there's a board member of the Python Software Foundation, Van Lindberg, also a former engineer turn lawyer, has written a really excellent book that explains a lot of these concepts and that explains a lot of these concepts in like engineer accessible frameworks. And I highly recommend that book because it is, you know, unfortunately like the optimal level of understanding if you're asking complex questions like how do I work with other companies is probably closer to book length than panel length. Of course. I am blanking on the name of the book. He's going to look up the name of the book for you. So if you're in that space, God willing, you do some of your work in an organization where they've got good and hardened rules and you can generally conduct yourself without worrying about it because the rules take care of it for you. They license the rules but also disclosure rules. You know that Node.js just adopted it's a new IPR policy as I understand it so that I'm not an expert on it but one of the questions is okay, what does that cover? How does that cover me? How much disclosure is required? Am I in a competitive position where I am trying to donate some things but keep other processes outside of my donation so that they can be my competitive advantage if you read the old Shapiro and varying book information rules. It talks richly about how the way to play the open source game from a enterprise point of view is to figure out what to give away to enjoy network effects and what to keep for your own proprietary processes. Everybody is doing that.  That's their secret sauce. The best thing I can tell you as a lawyer to non-lawyers is going to these things knowing darn well what your secret sauce is, if any and what parts you're trying to give away and get everybody else to use the parts of it to you or somebody else in your environment is trying to keep for themselves. When you get that wrong or when you're not clear or when the organization where you're doing the work is fuzzy and not careful, you get problems and if those problems involve large economic risks people sue each other and bad things happen. One word. Rambus. R-A-M-B-U-S. Look it up, 10, 20 years ago. We were all on each other like a pack of wild dogs because there were disclosures. The disclosures were thought to be not very clear. There was an allegation that you lied to me about your patent. Well, we didn't tell you. Well, we never said we didn't have one.  Suit dismissed. Run to a regulator. Regulator looks at it and says, yeah, it wasn't against the rules because the rules are crappy, but it was deceptive anyway. We're looking in places where they have clarity good and above all knowing what you're trying to protect and knowing what you want to share. So I think this segs really well into this discussion of how IP and patent policies of different organizations sort of reinforce common and I think you all were kind of touching on that.  Can you speak to other ways in which our policies here can help reinforce that and improve the commons? So it's not so tragic. I can start with one. The W3C royalty free patent policy offers a reciprocity term that you can condition the royalty free promise on everyone else's promise to make their patents available on the same spec on the same terms. And that reinforces the Austrian principle of community, having a defined community. Those who are in and who are willing to commit to sharing the work of keeping this open get the rights to your work as well. And those who want to free ride who want to take but not give well they face the risk of litigation by any one of the participants who is otherwise making their patents available royalty free. So it's a anyone is free to enter so long as they're willing to make that commitment. And that's a little lightweight community boundary that says here are the conditions, here are the rules that you need to agree to if you want to be part of this commons. And that helps to build the spirit of good faith interaction and cooperation that then can grow the commons. Yeah, I mean there's so many this is a tough one to impact so let me also give one example. So there some of you may be aware that there's a couple different ways that you can say what the license on a code is for a long time the default was I'm just going to have a file called copying and I'm going to put the license in there and that's going to be good enough and then some large corporations got involved or like that still makes us a little nervous because we don't have we you know say Joe Schmo comes along and gives you know submits a pull request we didn't call them pull request but you know submits a pull request have they agreed to those legal terms in that in that one file how do we know that they've how do we know that their employer has agreed to those terms so one of the first early evolutions in open source licensing was something called a contributor license agreement where when a new contributor would come in off the internet and say hey I have an idea here's here's a patch everybody would the gears would grind to a halt and everybody would say hey that looks great please fax me this please print it out fax it to me or certified mail also fine and we will literally put it in a filing cabinet of the Apache Software Foundation and we'll keep track of it just in case right and in fact I'm aware of a situation this is semi public given my track record you can probably guess who it is here but I've been aware of a case where a company sued over a piece of code and the Apache Software Foundation opened up their file cabinet and said but you gave us this piece of code it says right here you gave it to us and the company backed down right and so it wasn't a like purely hypothetical well here's the thing I have been doing this for 20 years now and I'm aware of exactly one case in which that has been helpful and there are literally thousands of these things on file if not tens of thousands right oh okay value stuff you know deep competition that's not a real thing by the way notes has CLA's doesn't it I think you guys do it I mean you guys do it as you know bytes set in a github register at the moment but you got CLA's it's just that they're not we don't fax them anymore but let me but at some point somebody said hey you know what in most of these cases the original things were written such that you could literally like if some random shmo off the internet came submitted a patch and it turns out they were lying about the source you could sue them about it which was like nice in theory but in fact is a practical matter you know none of us are what we would what lawyers call deep pockets right we're not like if Oracle wants to like come sue Joe Schmo Oracle is going to realize like the cost is not worth like the benefit here right because they are going to spend a lot more on lawyers than whatever Joe Schmo has in his pockets to give to Oracle right Oracle are vindictive sons of bitches but you know they're not dumb um former client but I still have thoughts uh so we so a lot of communities were a little concerned about this overhead of first faxing you know now it's github stuff but uh and so somebody said you know what look we're not going to go ahead and sue this person why don't we optimize that out and we'll focus on instead simply being able to to notify people hey you should really owe this and own this before you give it to us and we should know who gave it to us right and that is where you got uh the developer certificate of origin the key point being there we know where it came from so that if somebody sues us we can look into it and we can take that code out if we need to right and that's where dco comes in which is the default I believe for open chance all of the projects are actually on different like uh things and so that that's that's part of this new policy is as a new foundation is like okay can we start to figure out like what the um standard practice ought to be among 30 some odd projects that have been doing it differently for years and this is a great illustration but the point the problems that you know js people have when designing a system like that is you got a bunch of people coming in with a bunch of different licenses a bunch of different environments a bunch of different practice in terms of people who like signing stuff and have a six pack of lawyers people who don't some people are comfortable with dco's some aren't and so you have to construct a reasonably safe process but let me try abstract out into an action item for non-lawyers okay what this tells you is that your first question in a development situation where you're contributing stuff you care about into a project you care about is you need to decide whether you're in a relatively weasel free environment because you see if you are full of weasels like ours be the rambus people or some of louis clients or maybe I should say clients opponents but your mileage may vary I forgot one before if you're in a weasel free or a highly competitive or a dueling licenses pistols at dawn environment then all the stuff is going to matter a lot more and you got a lot more chance of contributing a whole lot of things that can't then get swiped away from you or overridden or your project suddenly been deep six because of a lawsuit or a threat of a lawsuit because believe me a lot of people dealing this are not brave warriors they're craven if you go boo boo boo I'm going to see you and you got a lot of money you know I mean I guess the oracle the oracle Google case on which we have no opinion because we have contributions from both sides you got two rather large companies who are apparently not afraid of spending legal I assume that when one of them calls the other the reaction on the other end of the phone is oh my god stars and garages were lost but a lot of the battles between parties who have opposite technical or licensing or patent positions are asymmetric this is not a level playing field so figure out how treacherous and how weasel free your environment is and then you will know how much you want to sort of run for safety and make sure that you're working within a highly structured process or a process that has professional referees a process that's got a lot of output and has a lot of connections into other systems so that there's going to be people who aren't interference for you because they can assure you that when something goes to hell in a standards or open source project at my shop or Wendy's we get calls we try and help them navigate it in some appropriate way without taking sides and that can be a very important function so the maturity of an organization also goes to when that crazy thing happens can you get help let me add one other an unfortunate part of our profession is that we are all professional pessimists it is our job to see the issues coming like we have finally tuned weasel radar and we see those weasels from a lot further off than you do now sometimes they are imaginary weasels and so the unfortunate the balancing thing here is that we sometimes have to be the ones who are delivering this bad news of like circumstances change when you were talking earlier about the patent situation I couldn't help but think when we all got involved patent litigation about software well actually this might not be true for you Jamie but the software litigation about patents patent litigation about software rather has come in waves right where for a long time we didn't even think the software was patentable and then we thought the software was very patentable and now we're back to like maybe it's not very patentable again so it feels like a little bit of a peaceful time right now there are no weasels on the horizon but in fact the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit I'm not going to call them weasels on we're being recorded high yes they're wonderful except when they're not and then one day you wake up and all of a sudden software is patentable again and all the lawyers like it's so depressing to me like engineers come to be full of all this energy it's like just help me build the thing and you're like okay but bad news may come you know and you have to be the one who sort of who bears that bad news preemptively I want to sort of add that a lot of our long term weasel radar is looking at edge cases and exception handling and litigation is for the most part in software and the exception most of what we're doing is not suing one another and most of what we're doing in standards and open source is trying to find cooperative solutions because the web isn't going to work the node software isn't going to work if it doesn't work together and saying I'm going to sue you for not interoperating with me is a pretty poor way of getting interoperability much better to say what can you live with what can I live with where's a compromise that makes each of us better off that we've got a package that works we've got a standard that works we've got an API that we all agree to implement not because someone comes down with a lawsuit saying thou shalt but because that's what's going to work for our product and our customer teams and our collaborators absolutely we're all we all have this radar for problems the best lawyers are the ones who have the radar for problems and help you get to a solution anyway right like that's unfortunately I think what separates not great lawyers from great lawyers and we're all spoken for so but like but we have a Rolodex so if you ever have a lawyer saying no to you come find us and we'll hook you up with somebody who will find a way to say find a way to give you answers one more thing all the stuff that we're doing that we think of as being web interface cool screens mobile all that the things you hear 90% of the work here talk about this you know that's one part of the world and perhaps that is a relatively weasel free environment as Lewis suggests but I got to tell you I do and I know Wendy shop has been a lot of work in automotive in IOT in security and those are not 5G good god telecoms those are not free or patent free domains so I think it would be I should say you know I was just listening to the technical steering committee of Node.js earlier today and hearing the guys talk about all their ports of the basic core over all kinds of funky devices that aren't anything like a laptop you know they got a whole bunch of satellites and Lord knows what else running this stuff on the esoteric chips that haven't been invented yet so we are up in that patent filled space even here I actually think that we are in for about a copyright trolling in this space as well how many of you have actually read all the way through the BSD or MIT licenses alright okay well so I oh yeah I get right yeah I know I'm not going to read it now I will tell you that the sort of common mythology about these licenses is that do whatever you want and that is mostly true except for the asterisk of but if you deliver the software to somebody you've got to give them a copy of this license right now that is not hard to do and yet virtually nobody does it right and somebody is going to just as the previous talk in this room was in part about people inserting deliberate security vulnerabilities into people's web stacks I think we are going to see somebody inserted a deliberate legal vulnerability they're going to build a useful library or buy a useful library from the copyright holder and then they are going to they're going to use you know one of the scanning tools to like essentially say hey I noticed that your website is using my library I have only I have never seen public record of it happening well I there's a brief say yes you're also kind of moving toward that last question that I was going to ask about predictions but before we get to that I want to make sure that we talked about the other thing that I know that this room cares quite a bit about which is the sustainability of the commons because the funding was a big role in sort of figuring out the business of open source as well I think everybody here cares about that and had some tidalists have something to say about it yeah sure so we have observed that there's a lot of money floating around for really high profile projects and this is something that WC3 and Oasis have seen as well if you have something that's way up at the top of the stack there's a lot of money floating around in the system right now it's not that hard to get funding for it right it's not easy but it's doable but then you do a scan of what people are actually using and there's literally hundreds of libraries that are somebody's part time project and that plays into questions like the security vulnerabilities that we were seeing earlier and the general just cost of using the stack right you have all spent time discovering that some library you thought you that you were relying on is like oh this actually hasn't been updated in four years and now it doesn't work with something else and and we think that that cost of that way of doing business is bad for developers right like in me it leads to burnout it leads to abandoning projects that you once loved but your day job is now switched from being a job shop to a Ruby shop and now your Java projects are abandoned right or you know I mean this is obviously a Java script shop but you know things that were dependent on jQuery now everybody's moving to view or pick your flavor of the week right and that's that leads to a lot of costs for the businesses that are using it so we think that at least part of the solution here is actually treating this like a business right not just a charity but actually going out and saying hey your business depends on this we can make it more reliable if we pay the developers who are doing the work and that is one approach there's many others right open collective is great they are doing the past the past the hat kind of thing there's industry consortia right I mean W3C Oasis Linux foundation are all essentially passing the hat at the industrial scale in some sense right and that in certain spaces works very well you know tidelift thinks that that's not going to work for the little for the smaller pieces of things right so that's sort of where we're focused on I don't want to turn this into a pitch session but anybody who wants to talk about if you're free to come my other hat I am we're small enough that I am human resources I'm the general counsel and I also had our DevRel team so and so yeah so I drew the long straw of coming to Montreal in December I am the San Francisco office no that's not true as of last week we have two people in San Francisco so let me have some fun with this and throw a rock one of the ways that the balance between big and little players, patent holders, trolls and non-combatants and other sort of asymmetrical parties are going to be disrupted is a prediction I'm going to offer you and that is in spite of the fact that everybody makes fun of it in spite of the fact that all these fat old cis white guys like me who run some of the older organizations seem to not take it seriously the ethical licensed people are going to prevail at some point okay the all software is good no matter what everybody can use anything and I don't care if my stuff is used to jail babies people the old school open source approach that says no one gets to withhold their labor from anything no matter how evil that's not going to be the only model forever read ethical license search the phrase ethical license we're not familiar with this there is a growing set of what I would call new wave approaches or differences or twists on open source licensing that basically create exceptions for various reasons and some of those are going to exclude some large organizations and that's going to mess this all up that it's coming I can I can see it from here that we don't know what's going to happen yet I don't know how fast it's going to happen but there will people be people who are willing to contribute to the commons for some purposes but not for the purposes and that will also cause some kind of regrouping or segregation or set of conditions it'll have to cope with just as the GPL license was disruptive 15-20 years ago and it basically landed in a field of other licenses nobody looked at it and said but if I use this I can't use anything else and oh my god stars and garters I mean believe me the people who were in our jobs as IPR lawyers or software 20 years ago almost all had vapers about the GPL because they couldn't figure out how to use it with anything else and not have the world break and it took a while for people to figure out that there are actually you can have modules next to other modules and even Moglen wrote some things to make it clear that this wasn't you know eating the entire world it was just for certain areas and that there are ways for this stuff to coexist and they created the LGPL and they made it easier but there will be more perturbation in licensure and more people insisting that other values be supported and that will be stabilized and mess up some of these current relationships and power relationships which I think is going to be really interesting hopefully I retired before I did because I've got thoughts on that I love that you decided like at the very end of this to open the ethical licensing can of worms we are kind of running low on time so I think I will ask you all to make your predictions for 2020 boy I mean Jamie stole mine right out of the I 100 percent agree that that's going to be you know I think the other interesting thing is going to be this is maybe not 2020 thing but in the next say three to five years the security presentation from the sneak guy here was terrifying right nothing new but put a lot of things together this this idea that we can write some letters in all caps and for those of you who have since I guess none of you run the BSE license it says it's got this all cap section that basically says oh yeah if you break it if it's broken hey not my problem your problem right yeah and and that's I think at some point that's not going to hold right I think the security risk to the literally civilization are going to be too high and we're all going to have to clean up you know I don't know how lawyers are going to be involved in that but I suspect we will yeah I think in the doom and gloom portion of predictions I think we're seeing regulators and legislators being lots more interested in what we create with code whether that's round three of the encryption wars of law enforcement need back doors sorry you can't build a secure back door build us one anyhow or you know liability for platforms and for what users post on them you may think the protection that platforms have had against being liable for what users post yet we're more and more concerned about abuse about misinformation about harassment online and finding the right balance between you know who takes responsibility how and what are the legal hooks for that responsibility we build these other kinds of communities on top of software without undermining the protections that we have for building good software is I think going to be a challenge of our next say five years any optimistic predictions okay let's let a light note I think we're going to find that all of the current hyper-categorized beliefs that a standard and a code module and a model and a markup and an API are all different things is going to fall away and simplify because you know what yet we are in a world now where one where all that stuff is one transform away from another and some of the transforms are canonical and bilateral and actually freaking work which is not where we were a few years ago so I think we're going to find that the output you create in whatever form or serialization happens to exist in whether it's a code or a spec or an API whatever it is we're going to discover that there's a much more uniform set of safe principles and methods for procuring finding these things I mean why do we find code or score people's you know PR points on github using code but we don't do that with standards why are Oracle and Google spending $50 million arguing over what an API is we're using the damn things all the time agonizing over their exact categorization I think some of those artificial succincts are going to fall away and it's actually going to render what we all do a lot simpler and so just as we used to see some of the integrated development environments do this you won't be having people hand code so much any stuff you'll be seeing people creating models and then being able to implement them immediately without having to get in there like key blurzels and handcraft every piece of it I think as all that unifies more it will create a simpler and safer environment where a lot of these sneaky distinctions that weasels use to mess up your life will fall away we're going to keep winning I mean I think that's the you know the idea that open source would literally take over the world in the way it has would have sounded ludicrous 20 years ago even 10 and you know all this all the griping that we've got here at the table that's all that's all at the edges of the thing right like the core model works and we're going to keep winning and that's still sometimes I wait you know there's like a legal conference all lawyers get together Microsoft has started attending all of these with their lawyers right like like that was sort of my big like oh right this is this real we're learning yeah and I'll follow up on that that I think we're getting better at building communities around these the around the code and communities that have values and ethics and privacy practices and other things that we value as well as the quality of the code and its interoff so I think we're getting better at building you know code for good society all we do is win let's debate that one some other day I don't want to take away from DJ Khaled over there I know a foundation that I work with who was agonizing over how to create a testing and sort of a certification program and they had this debate that went kind of like this well should we just issue reference code and make everybody use it or should we create a model and require everybody to obey the model or should we create an API with it as a specification and spell it all out make everybody obey the data structure and the code because they needed wide interoperability across a whole bunch of governments for a complicated purpose or should we just set it up set up a test client and say you know this isn't canonical but there's a reference implementation and if you can talk to it you win and you know what their answer was actually their answer was don't care any one of those works which is my point right if we can get to agreed structures then you know you don't have to set up all night with the teams of lawyers worrying about the little Rococo technical details of how you license this little piece of that and whether it's really an API or not whether it's really copyrightable or not or how the patent lawyer should approach it you know if you make this stuff simple as Louie says open development is winning thank heaven well panelists if any of that happens I'll ask you about it next time at the next node plus JS interactive who's been watching Wait Wait don't tell me everyone I will just give it up for these very generous attorneys and please do come to speak with them today about the W3C lift or Oasis thank you all very very much