Good afternoon. My name is Sergei Bermat. In case you were here in the morning, I am a software engineer at GameConcept. I work during the days, but during the night, I like to develop Hellenos. So, therefore, my goal for today is to tell you a little bit about capabilities in Hellenos. So, first of all, in case you didn't know, Hellenos is very portable. It runs on seven processor architectures, starting with ARM, going through Itanium, as was already mentioned by DZ, Spark, RPC, of course, MD64, maybe some others. And it was designed and implemented from scratch. It was mostly written... It was written by us, so it doesn't contain any third particle. It doesn't clone anything, so it does not look like Hellenos or Hellenos. And you wouldn't find someone else's code in it, basically. We like to write it in a way so that there are no huge monolithic components. So, for example, if you take a look at our networking stack, you will find several components that create it and that roughly respond to the layers of the networking stack. I would also like to deliver a short update from the last for them. So, last year, we managed to release this one in April, the second one in November. The November release is the one in which we switched from Bazar to GitHub. So, you can go to GitHub and work us there. Last year, we also had our regular hackathon event, which we call Hellenos Camp. For me personally, it was a very good experience because I saw new energy which came into our project. Some of the topics that I will be talking about today started there. And last but not least, we now also have a paid developer who is paid by CZepnik, which is the caretaker of the CZepmain. They have a stand where it goes to this room and also famous for making it into this Honea router. There's four things that are ahead of us that will be soon to reflect marching to Hellenos. There is a C++14 support, which should be ready sometime in February. And a USB 3.0 enhancement of our already existing USB stuff. What you can see on the picture is a laptop of one of the USB 3.0 team members, which is of course running Hellenos and has a flash disk attached via the XHCI controller and some details transferred from there. So that was for the update and for what's coming next. Now before we delve into capabilities in Hellenos, there's one more thing that I would like to mention that's a Google Summer of Code. As you might know, some of the projects assembled in this room participated last year in Google Summer of Code. By the way, Google Summer of Code is an internship program for university students. The students work on an open source project. There are some mentoring organizations that mentor the students and Google pays stipends to those projects, to those students. So last year we participated with very, very three students, one for Hort, one for Minix, and one for Redox. All of them were quite successful and this year we applied again. So you can keep your fingers crossed for us on February 12th, when the mentor organizations will be announced by Google and in case the microcon on the room is selected, then students can start applying, starting from March 12th. And in that case, you can search for this microcon on the room logo on Google Summer of Code pages. So that's for the agenda. And now capabilities. So this is how we are used to talk about capabilities in HINOS. So for us, capability is a task local reference to some kernel object. And kernel object is basically a wrapper which is reference counted and points to a real thing, to something which lives in the kernel and is accessible to user space only via capability, which is referred from user space using a handle. You can imagine the analogy of the FS files where you have a file handle, which is the integer reference, where you have in the kernel the table of open files, which is basically an array of capabilities and elements of this array then point to the underlying BFS object, which would be kernel object. What is the motivation for actually caring about capabilities in HINOS and trying to bring them to HINOS? So over the years, because HINOS started in 2001, so over the years we accumulated a certain amount of technical debt and we also haven't always known how to do things properly, so we need to fix those things. If we also want to do some more fancy stuff like virtualization, such as the one which was presented here last year forward, we need to get rid of all global identifiers or global names, and because we have, I think it's on this side, we have laptop stickers that say that HINOS is an advanced micro-canon system, I can't imagine going forward without having capabilities actually, so it's also a matter of modernization. So I would like to present some examples that illustrate the need for capabilities. So here is an example. Our goal is to pass an open file from a parent task to a child task. Both of them are clients of the VFS server and how do we do that? So one possibility would be to go like this. What we see here is the setup that I have just described. The VFS server contains state which logically belongs to the parent and to the child task. It's the table of open files and its per task. So it has a table for the beforeage task for the parent and it also has a table for the child. And the goal is to duplicate this, basically the object pointed by one entry in the open files table and duplicate it in the child's table. So now you are going to see an example of one of these broken interfaces that we implemented. So what I did a couple of years ago was something like this. You can see the whole process involves seven steps that result in the child's process receiving a capability. I will briefly walk you through it. I won't spend much time on it. Basically the parent starts by telling the child, hey child, now I'm going to send you a file. And immediately afterwards it says, and now I'm using a kernel recognized IPC call method, IPC message method, IPC and state change authorize. And the child says, okay. And then it says okay, both of them identify the common server. The kernel notices the positive reply to this message and sends an IPC notification to the VFS server. The VFS server then proceeds to actually duplicate the actual entry in the parent's open file table and creates a new entry in the child's table. Then the process continues by the child sending the VFS server for the new handle and the VFS server replies with the handle and affirmative reply. And the child concludes the whole handshake by replying to the original first message by the European. So is there among you someone who absolutely loves this approach? Yeah, I think so. So of course this is rather an example of how not to do things. Myself, I'm not 100% sure that this mechanism, even though it's a generic mechanism which allows two clients of the same server to negotiate a change of this state, I'm not myself convinced that it's actually safe and free of some race conditions. Also, there are two things to note about it. Those VFS objects that live inside VFS are not real kernel objects. And basically they all match to the VAL IPC entry point that exists in the VFS server. And second thing to note is the active role of the VFS server and also the kernel which leads to some unification. So the bottom line is we don't like this. It should have probably never been implemented. And instead, there is a different way how to do things which is capability. So instead, we now have something like a table of open files or if you will, a table of capabilities that is still associated with each of these tasks but lives in the kernel and references some kernel objects that also live in the kernel. And now the exchange is quite easy. Imagine that the parent task has a connection or has a way of talking to the child. It can be concluded in two steps. First of which is the parent basically telling the child please connect to me and identifying the object which to connect. And when the child positively responds the kernel duplicates basically the connection to the originally pointed object and it's done. So there is a mechanism which lies in an IPC message which is understood by the kernel called IPC-M connect either to me or me too depending on whether you want to connect to somebody or have somebody connected to you. So it's a mechanism for creating connections and go-back connections. And currently it does not accept the core number so it wouldn't work that way in the current Hellenos. There still needs to be something done in order for it to work like this. Note how the VFS server is not involved anyhow in this transaction. And we now have a different situation when each VFS file is represented by one kernel object. There is no more correspondence between one IPC endpoint in the VFS server and one kind of user space kept VFS object. So that was for passing files. And there is another example which actually there is no ethics for it in Hellenos. So imagine a device driver. Device drivers usually need to register some kind of interrupt handlers. And the question is how to properly identify the handler so that it can be referred to from user space and eventually unregistered. So before Hellenos 0.7.1 Hellenos supported three syscalls. The first syscall sysdevice assigned devno was a syscall used to assign a device number but it wasn't anything more. It was a syscall which would routinely assign a number from the global pointer and then increment the pointer. Then you could use this global identifier to subscribe your interrupt handler which in this case is referred to by the IRK argument. And you could also use it to unsubscribe the same. Now I wonder can some of you spot some problems with this interface?  Yes, there are some problems for the collaboration so that's the only problem for the builders? Yes, that's definitely one of the issues. So Norman asks whether or he suggests there is no authorization for the components to do this. And I won't do this any longer. So there are a couple of problems.  But the more serious problems are that the API doesn't require the caller to actually use the returned identifier and instead the caller to use any number of its tools. So for registration it can make up something of its own and even more serious for the registration it can register intra-handlers for an arbitrary other task. So tasks in... G.Defno is the global? Sorry? G.Defno is the same number in two tasks? It's global. It's a really global lighting. So SCU probably will agree with me this is completely broken. And it was fixed in Hellenos 0.701 when we introduced capabilities into this. So we got rid of assigning device numbers in the first place and then modified the API. So now the subscribe Cisco returns capability which can be used by unsubscribers. So it's no longer possible for unsubscribe to unsubscribe something else and that belongs to someone else. Of course it can unsubscribe different hierarchy handler from the same task. So if you can agree that capabilities are great and everybody loves them how do we introduce them to Hellenos? And the question is that we don't have to do that because they are already there but that way is quite limited as we go through. So now here is a picture of the basic Hellenos IDC communication between two tasks. So in this kind of pink oval I put all the state which exists in the kernel. We have two tasks the orange one is the one which starts the communication it has a set of phones which are basically connections. Some of the phones are connected to other objects are called answer boxes. The answer box is basically a message queue and so where to begin. So the orange task can basically specify the connection by a handle user space handle in this case 2, 0, 1, 2 which to use then would specify some arguments of the message. So the handle identifies the phone the phone identifies the answer box then the receiving task can use Cisco to actually wait for messages on the answer box and gets the call basically receives the call which is identified by so called call ID we will get to call ID later. And then it has one of two options it can answer the call using the call ID and submit an argument in which case the call goes back to the answer box for the send a task from where it can be again waited for by the original sender which concludes though and the sender gets replied to its own message. But the recipient doesn't have to answer it can do a different thing it can also forward the call to someone else so now we have three tasks so here we see that as I've said the blue task is not directly refined but it's forwarding the message using some of its own IPC connections in this case number 5 so it's this one this one is connected to the answer box of the green task and again the green task can either decide to forward the message farther or reply what is important here is that the reply goes to the answer box of the original sender now how do you create new connections in HALAOS so you need to use a dedicated method which is understood by the kernel and basically if you if a task replies in an affirmative way to this call the kernel notices it and creates a connection between the two tasks so the sender was the orange task the recipient is the green task the kernel notices it and creates a new phone connected from the orange phone between the answer box it can also the direction can go the other way so instead of using IPCM connect me to I can say IPCM connect to me in which case the arrow would go like this so there will be a new connection created from the task which replies to the answer box of the original sender this was important to actually realize that HALAOS contains a coarse green capability system which is in its IPC my claim is that this IPC is roughly analogous to the Mac IPC even though there are some limitations so here is a little table which maps the analogies from Mac to HALAOS and vice versa so the unit of communication in Mac is a message and called in HALAOS an IPC communication endpoint is called HORT in Mac answer box in HALAOS the connection is represented by the sender right in Mac while it is co-op phone in HALAOS the receiving from an IPC endpoint can be done if you have a receive right in Mac and is implicitly allowed to be owning task to the task which wants to receive from its own answer box so it's implicitly allowed in order to answer or to reply to a message in Mac you need to have a sender right to some HORT which accepts a reply and in HALAOS you need to have the call ID of the accepted call and of course this is something that Samuel from the project was mentioning today in Mac there is a way to actually pass the sender right to a third party so if there is a name service, task and has connections has sender rights to some other clients then give such a connection to whoever inquires for it and the same effect is achieved in HALAOS by forwarding IPC connections as you see in the previous slides so the bottom line of this is that in HALAOS the capability corresponds to a phone and in order to pass capability you need to forward a connection now what are the limits I said it's analogous to Mac but it has limitations so the limitations of the state which existed like a year ago is that phones were the only types of capability there were no other objects that were somehow usable at least and it was only possible to pass one capability to take this connection there was only one answer box possible for a task which is different from Mac which you can have multiple ports owned by a task and there were some hard limits so there was for example a limit of 64 phones per task and there was one especially annoying thing which is the last one that those core IDs are the numbers that in user space identify a call to reply or forward where actually leaked kernel addresses because frankly can there be a better user identifier than a leaked kernel address and sure there can be and we will see what it is on this picture which I tried to draw we actually see a kind of granularity problem because of the existence of the single answer box so even though we have a couple of objects that exist in the user space context of the server we only have one answer box which somehow needs to be mapped on those user space objects and this was done by the libraries and Helen also so this is the past state what we have now the situation has changed slightly because we implemented a new capability for more and started with making IPC work with it so IPC is now implemented in top of this framework we also introduced two new kernel object types so one for calls we no longer refer to calls using kernel addresses but we have proper capabilities that identify a kernel object for each call and also as was apparent from one of the examples we now have capabilities for IR view objects unfortunately we still have only one answer box per task so we haven't fixed that yet but we will probably fix that very soon on the picture which is at the bottom here you can see the general structure of the capability framework so the orange symbols they represent the cup underbar T types which are the actual capabilities so if the capability is in a published state it is visible in the user space under a handle and it is 5.30 and also there is an owner of this capability which is a task called a capability objects they point to K object underbar T which contains a reference count and a type and points to the underlying raw object in this case which we call underbar T and apart from references from the object from the K underbar T structures there might also be references from the code so that's the reason why we have 3 and also 2 here related to having only one answer box we still in this kind of situation need to use the capability which is which points to the form and a global number which identifies the surveys or the object in the survey and so it's slightly better than it used to be but it's still not good enough and we would like to have something like that so on this picture you already see that we got rid of the limitation of one answer box per task and now we have as many as there are these library entities that were previously left to single answer box so and with that it's related to the fact that now it is sufficient to use only the capability handle in order to refer to the respective destination object and so there will be some correspondence between the C library async ports and the actual answer boxes there will be a new capability side for them if you do that you could actually get rid of the phone objects at all because now they will become somewhat redundant because depending on the capability right it will be either possible to make use of the answer box capability to send messages or to use an answer box capability to receive messages so I think we won't need phones when this is done and because even if we do this there will still be two more objects that use global IDs in LNOS and that's threads and task IDs currently these objects have global identifiers and whenever an API works with press or tasks it need to pass the identifier and the kernels to look up and make sure that such an object exists and this won't be necessary if we also if we also make it possible to reproduce objects by capabilities so the previous slide said what needs to be done in order for me to be satisfied with the situation but there is more to come and more what needs to be done so we will need to seriously think about resource management because along the course of making these adaptations I removed some hard limits so for example the limit on 64 capabilities per task is gone nowadays a hash table and it's possible to actually have a limited number of capabilities so now it's possible for tasks to actually consume so much memory that the system becomes unusable a similar situation is that I removed a limit which was there for the number of unanswered calls sent over one phone so in the old HANOS it wasn't possible to send more than four if you send the fifth the kernel would block such an attempt and because this was contributing to some hard to debug deadlocks I removed it and instead decided that we can somehow different problem to be resource allocated so if instead each task has some resource pool these limits can be basically enforced by the virtue of the task running out of its resource pool so it can it will be allowed for a task to have as many active calls or as many capabilities as its memory allows it to have so we will most likely introduce resource pools and I'm thinking of a resource trading scheme which would be probably very similar to the one which is present in Gnode so whenever a task request another task for a service such a request would have to be accompanied by some resources that the client pays the server actually with to the actual board then I have some minor things that we don't currently need or use but might seem to be useful or even needed in the future so for example we don't distinguish between different capability rights at this point all capabilities are equal that point to the same object but as I illustrated on the example of the answer box capability that could be both used for sending and receiving we might need to introduce something like capability rights currently there is also no way to revoke an existing capability so we might introduce that if that's indeed we are still able to pass only an IPC connection even though we have capabilities for other kinds of objects this might be actually this limitation might be actually removed when we have capabilities for tasks because now it's not even possible to specify a task using a capability but if it is we can specify a task by capability and another capability which should be duplicated in the new task and that could be a new or alternative mechanism for passing capabilities between tasks in how many years or we can do a similar thing for IPC and relax a little bit the requirement that the task object is an IPC connection and that IPC and connect to new head shape so in summary I wanted to say today that even though we hadn't known about it there was a capability system in Hellenos indeed which was basically by chance I asked the developer who created IPC for Hellenos whether he intended it or not and whether he was familiar with the MAC approach and he said that he basically declined except that he didn't intend to make a capability system and he wasn't even aware of the fact that it's a coarse grained limited capability system and anyway we took this foundation and extended it so that it's more generic and contains more capability capability types and kernel objects to the point in which we were able to fix some of our broken APIs fixes for some other cases like the one with passing VFS handles still needs to wait until we can have multiple answer boxes per task and all this stuff is still quite new it's a little bit still in the flux so there might be some time required for it to settle down so things still might change a little bit and with that I would like to thank you for your attention that's a question yes, so you mentioned that FVDTs have an orderly test, right? you have just said the rule I'm trying to determine the semantics of that what does that mean exactly that the orderly test stays yeah, so you have to you basically need to think about this as a magnified version of this and capabilities literally speaking are objects that exist in the context that belong, that are task local so it's basically a reference let's pick one for example number four is a task local name for this P for this kernel object and it exists here so when you say you want to test A test A is the local I'm trying to understand whether it's the issuer or the receiver well it so the question was who is the owner of the capability right? yes well every task has a set of its capabilities and they might be associated with some kernel object and it might be possible on these examples I don't think there was a case in which one actually on the last example if I switch here can I rephrase the question let me finish so here we have an instance of a kernel object which is referenced by two capabilities one of them is in the orange task and the other one is somewhere here in the blue task so there are two capabilities that point to the same kernel object and both of them are in different tasks yes and that's the task in your data structure well this was just an example so that's a few new tasks yeah there is because these entities are in a hash table and the task so they belong to a task and there is a hash table so they belong to the task by virtue of being in that task a hash table of capabilities because the opposite I mean there are at least two ways to do it yeah there are probably many ways to do this Norma do you have a question yes so this is by full dimensional change at least it looks like this and how much does it impact on your data so the last so there is a question about the impact on the existing code whether we had to rewrite loss of code and the answer is no because we did that slowly and gradually so we first converted the IDC framework to be using this new capability stuff and preserve the functionality which was there in fact we are still removing some weird kind of reminders of the whole system so we are still cleaning up and the other changes such as removing the kernel addresses for qualities that were quite straightforward and I just have to ask I have to change fix only a couple of places of course it takes some debugging and some development but we are now talking about the order of like a couple of evenings basically but this reminds me something that I didn't mention when we will be able to have multiple multiple answer boxes pair tasks it will naturally lead to a more comprehensive way of programming so we will lose this granularity problem and it might change actually the way how we write or how we look at our servers but so far the changes were contained to the libraries common libraries there was no major changes in the server yes so Martin said that these changes were confined to the kernel and the libraries and there were no other changes in the servers so that's true it's a follow up to the previous one you have the capability to you can have the capability to mention task A can send a message to task B yes and such a capability so the question is if I have a capability which allows a task A to task B and what does it look like and such a capability is so we can take this example so there will be in this orange task there will be capability under the handle 4 it points to this capability which has also label 4 in it and it points to this kernel object which is the phone IPC phone IPC connection space and this phone is connected to this answer box which is another kernel object blue one is B oh I see you are trying to you are trying to find the tasks that are so this was just I just made up the identifier here this picture existed before I drew this one so just disregard this A it's something that can be but it's not necessarily the same numbering as this here I'm actually trying to match this to the problem I encountered when I prototyped my capital DTA system which was I had difficulties with what basically the impossible potential race conditions with processes that are on both sides and what and things like that I could look at what she said that well I'm trying to understand if you have the same problem as me or if you actually so the question is maybe I should ask that maybe you can take it offline but let me deal with this so the question is there can be such a situation when I somehow lose track of what capability points to what so the user space part of the task can of course forget what its capability handles are, it's the same you can have a set of open files and you can completely forget which one is which so this can also happen to you but since kernel objects are reference counted and when the task is killed it cleans up its capabilities it will result in kind of decreasing the reference counter and then reference counter and making a kernel object which is not owned by a specific task drops down to zero such an object is automatically destroyed so you don't have to really care about freeing capabilities because there will be free time when the task is killed so and that's more of that so do you have any more questions because we have already done a bit question what happens when the server dies and you report the capability to that server's answer box so the question is what happens when the server dies and I hold the capability to the server's answer box and this is not actually specific to the new code because such a problem already existed before I think the phone got slammed and is marked as basically dangling dangling things so that when you attempt to actually send a call over it you will immediately get a message and there is another there is like a symmetric issue which is what happens when that kind of disconnects and in that case there will be hangout call which is sent to the answer box well again basically it could be related to closing TCP connection in the case there are no further questions I thank you once again for your attention


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Now, the Roma Wine Company of Fresno, California presents... Suspense!  Suspense is presented for your enjoyment by Roma Wines. That's R-O-M-A, Roma Wines. Those excellent California wines that can add so much pleasantness to the way you live. To your happiness and entertaining guests. To your enjoyment of everyday meals. Yes, right now a glassful would be very pleasant, as Roma Wines bring you a remarkable tale of suspense. And with Fear Paints a Picture, and with the performance of Hollywood's most glamorous young star Miss Lana Turner, Roma Wines hope indeed to keep you in suspense. There is a picture hanging on a wall. You look at it casually. An extraordinary picture. You'll say he's skillfully done. Look at those fine brush strokes. Look at those superb colors. But isn't the subject matter a little bizarre? It's something more than just bizarre. You see, it was that picture that first convinced me that I was insane. But let me begin from the beginning. In his last will in testament, my father made me heir to all his considerable fortune, except that, well, here, you read the will. I, Benjamin Powell, hereby request that after my death my daughter Julia live in my old San Francisco house with Mr. Harvey Lyons, my lifelong friend, until her 23rd birthday, at which date all my worldly belongings will come into her possession, provided that nothing untoward happens to her by that time. But in the event that she is incapable of taking over my estate upon her 23rd birthday, I hereby appoint Harvey and Laura Lyons as my final heirs, there being no other living blood relatives, and trust to their judgment that they will take care of Julia adequately and with kindness. Signed, Benjamin Powell. Three months later, seated around the huge ornate fireplace of that dark, musty living room, we were three silent people. Harvey was reading his newspaper, Laura was knitting with nibble fingers, and I stared with unseen eyes at an open book. You're not reading, Julia? I, uh, I'm not concentrating. Are you feeling all right, dear? Yes, yes, I'm all right. You do look a little tired, Julia. Perhaps you'd better get some rest. I'm not tired, Harvey. I... I've been wanting to ask... In a week, Julia will be 23. Isn't that wonderful, Harvey? Next Tuesday is her birthday, and I think... Well, yes, we'll have a party. I'll get old Tom and his fiddle, and we'll have a real old-fashioned party. Harvey, what did father mean by the will? The will? Perhaps you'd better go to bed. Julia? The will said that I might not be able to take over the estate by my 23rd birthday. What does it mean? I don't remember that. I didn't read the will very carefully. Oh, yes, you did, Harvey. You know what I'm talking about. Perhaps we'd better discuss it in the morning. You're tired. It's no use, Laura. I've got to know.  Upset me? Well, you sort of get moody very often. Now, Harvey... Laura, I'm not going to bed until I find out what all this means. I've got to find out. You... don't like your room, do you? No. No, I don't. It's big. The wallpaper. I... I don't like the pictures on the wall. There's nothing wrong with a big room. Everyone prefers a large room. Everyone likes pictures on the wall. Well, maybe it's the kind of pictures. Yes, it's the pictures. They rub me the wrong way. You see, your feelings about things are different. Different from the feelings of normal people. Normal people? I can't stand this torturous way of telling her. I'll tell you, Julia.  She went mad after her 23rd year. It's been in the family for generations. But I never saw my mother. We didn't want to tell you this. I wish you hadn't, but you forced us. You mean I'm liable to become insane? Well, you see, any one of us can become insane. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm perfectly all right. I'm as sane as anyone. Being high-strung doesn't make me mad. I don't like it here. I don't like this house. I'm sane. I'm sane. Of course you are, Julia. There's nothing the matter with you. You'll be all right. Your father wasn't sure that's all. You're as sane as any one of us. Come along. I'll take you to your room. We'll have a cup of tea together. How is she, Laura? She's calmed down. Is she asleep? No, Harvey. She's reading. That must be Dr. Barrow. I'll open the door. How do you do, Mr. Lyons? Is it Dr. Barrow? That's right. This is my wife, Laura. How do you do? I'm glad to meet you, doctor. Let me take your things. We'll have your room ready in a few minutes. Thank you. It's very good of you. Here, sit down. Sit down. Make yourself comfortable. Well, thank you, I will. Well, how's Julia? Oh, she's been very moody lately. Very moody. I've heard her talking to herself very often. Well, that's nothing. All of us talk to ourselves once in a while. I don't know, doctor. I don't think she's very stable. Mr. Powell described Julia's case to me just before he died. I had occasion to observe her just once. You knew Mr. Powell well? Oh, yes, for quite a number of years, I treated his wife. Poor Mrs. Powell. She went mad. And how poor Julia... I wouldn't make that comparison, Mr. Lyons. So far, there's no basis for any such theory. Well, then, Julia just has strong dislikes. Took a hate to the pictures in her room. Oh, pictures, eh? I'd like to go up and see her if she's not asleep. Well, I guess it's all right. She's not asleep yet. Your room's a second from the right as you reach the top of the stairs. Thank you. I'll just stop in for a few minutes. Hello, Julia. You remember me, don't you? No. No, not exactly. I guess maybe I've seen your face. I don't know. I'm Dr. Barrow, a friend of your father's.  My mother? No, no, don't be alarmed. I'm staying with your guardians for a few weeks. I'm sure you're going to be all right. Do you mind if I come in for a few minutes? No. No, I guess not. Well, this is a fine room, Julia. A very comfortable one. I don't like it. It's too big. It makes me lonely. Oh, nonsense. You're just imaginative.  It isn't that. Don't you like that picture, Julia? Well, what picture? The one you're staring at. Oh, it's an unpleasant picture. It gives me nightmares. Look at it. That frightful looking man about to come through the doorway and the unsuspecting girl sitting in a chair with her back towards him. He's not frightful looking at all. It's just the black scarf around his neck.  You certainly have a vivid imagination. I'm sure the artist had no such idea in mind. That picture has a horrible fascination for me. I just can't take my eyes away from it. Well, last night I dreamed that the man in the picture came through the door with a knife in his hands and killed the girl. It was an awful dream. It was only a dream. But if I take that painting off the wall, Julia, you'll find other things to be afraid of, dear. You've got to conquer your fears, or they'll conquer you, Julia. Now, now, you do as I say. Forget about this picture. Get a good night's sleep. There's nothing like a good night's sleep to lift the spirits. If the picture fascinates you, well, keep on looking at it, but don't be afraid of it, Julia. Will you do that now? Well, yes, Dr. Barrow. If you say so. Ah, that's fine. I'll see you in the morning. Good night, Julia. Good night. For suspense, Roma Wines are bringing you as star Miss Lana Turner, whom you've heard in the first act of Fear Paints a Picture by Sigmund Miller, which is Roma Wines' presentation tonight of Suspense. Between the acts of suspense, this is Truman Bradley for Roma Wines. Elsa Maxwell is recognized internationally as an authority on gracious living. The other day she said this about wine and wartime food rationing. Listen. I find that people who know one simple secret of delicious meals aren't bothered much by food rationing. That secret is to enjoy good Roma wine with food. For instance, I recently had dinner where the main dish was kidney bean casserole. And to give this simple food a delightful party flavor, my hostess served cool Roma California Burgundy. Everyone remarked about its wonderful bouquet and aroma, and about the way that good Roma Burgundy added enjoyment to our plain meal. Such added enjoyment is one of the reasons why more and more people serve delightful Roma wine. That's a grand suggestion from Elsa Maxwell. So why not try Roma California Burgundy with your dinner tomorrow night? You'll enjoy its tart pecancy, its fruity, robust taste. The happy result of selecting luscious wine grapes from California's choicest vineyards, guiding them to perfection by the ancient wine skill of Roma's famed wineries. Good Roma wines never vary. They are always enjoyable, yet cost only pennies a glass. Remember, more Americans enjoy Roma than any other wine. R-O-M-A, Roma wines. And now Roma wines bring back to our Hollywood soundstage Lana Turner as Julia Powell in fear paints a picture, a tale well calculated to keep you in suspense. About midnight in my room, the large room with its many pictures, I was dreaming, dreaming again of the man in the picture, and the figure with the flowing black scarf was alive, and his hands grew longer and longer, and there were footsteps, footsteps over my head. And then, then I was awake, wide awake, with my eyes staring at it, and on the wall, oh, Julia, what's happened? What are you doing out here in the hallway? Put yourself together, Julia. Oh, that man, that man. The man in the picture, he's moved. What do you mean? The picture, the man at the door. He's not at the door. He's inside the room. Oh, you must have been dreaming. He screams, Julia, what's happened to you? He moved. I saw it. He's not outside the door anymore. He's inside. No, no, no, Julia, let's... It wasn't a dream. The thunder woke me. And I heard footsteps coming from the ceiling, and I looked at the picture. The picture I told you I didn't like, doctor. The man was inside the room. That's hardly possible, Julia. Figures in pictures can't move. Of course not. It was just a bad dream. No, it's true. I saw it. All right, come along, Julia. We'll all take a look at the picture. No, I don't want to go back into the room. Now there's nothing to be afraid of.  Yes, come on, Julia. Don't be frightened. You've got to fight off these delusions.  Come along. Now, which picture is it? The one... the one near the bed. Oh, yes, the picture around Paul. Your family was always very proud of it. Well, there it is. It's the same as I saw it a few hours ago. Look at it, Julia. Well... I can't believe it. The man with the black scarf is still outside the door, and will stay there, Julia, until the picture crumbles to dust. Oh, but I... I was so sure I... I saw him inside the room, approaching the girl, and then the footsteps... Dreams can be very vivid, and there are no footsteps coming from the storeroom. Oh, I must be out of my mind. I could have sworn... If Julia wants to, I'll take the picture out of her room. No, no, I don't think it's wise. Julia, you will have to fight these unreasonable fears. Never give in to them. I'll go crazy if I keep looking at that picture. It might be the other way around, Julia.  You'll get worse and worse, as Dr. Barrow says, until you're afraid of your own shadow. No. You'll be afraid of everything, of everyone you meet. No. Afraid of being alone, afraid of being with people, afraid of yourself, afraid of your own clutching fingers. No, no, don't tell me anymore. Please, Mr. Lyons, please. There's no need for this kind of talk. Look at the picture, Julia. It's nothing but some paint on a canvas with a frame around it. There's nothing about it that can harm you. The danger lies in yourself. You've got to keep staring at it as often as you can by candlelight in the dark until you've learned to laugh at it. It won't be easy. Well, I'll try. That's fine. I knew you had courage. I'll get you a sedative so that you'll be able to sleep. Oh, but I'll be all right in the morning. I'm kind of sure I'll be all right. And I was all right for a few days. The figure in the picture remained motionless, and I heard no more footsteps until one evening... Well, Julia, it's 11 o'clock, and you know what Dr. Barrow says? I'm not at all sleepy, Laura. I'd much rather stay up for a while. You see, I'm in the middle of a fascinating story. You think wrong, Julia. No. No, of course not. Everything's fine, Laura. You're afraid to go to sleep, aren't you, Julia dear? No. No, it isn't that. Is that picture bothering you again? Oh, yes. Last night, I heard footsteps again. The sound woke me in the figure in the picture. It moved. It moved closer to the girl. Oh, how terrible. We thought you were over it. Well, I took some sleeping tablets, and I fell asleep again. And in the morning, well, the picture was the same as ever. I see. Oh, Laura, do you think I'm crazy? Oh, of course not. You're as sane as I am. Tell me the truth. I must know. Well, you're just nervous and high-strung, and you have a vivid imagination, and that's all. Oh, you're trying to soothe me. Why didn't you tell the doctor that you thought the picture moved again? Well, I... I was ashamed. You shouldn't be ashamed. Dr. Barrow was here to help you get well, and I'm sure that... Hello, Laura. Well, I've arranged to have old Tom and his fiddle here tomorrow night for Julia's birthday, and I've invited the grovers, and they'll be delighted to come. That is, Julia's feeling well. Julia, you should be in Venice after 11. She's afraid to go to sleep. Oh, please, Laura. It's the picture again, isn't it? Yes, doctor. It moved again. At least I thought it moved. Oh, but I went back to sleep. Well, well, that's an improvement. You didn't get hysterical and tried to run away like the last time. I'll go with you to your room. Perhaps Laura couldn't sleep in my room tonight. Oh, just tonight. You see, I'll feel a lot more comfortable, and tomorrow night I'll be able to face it alone much better. Well, Julia, that would be an admission of defeat, you know? But if you... Oh, well, all right. If you think it's best. Good night. Good night, Julia. Keep up your courage. It doesn't look so good as a doctor. Well, well, not too good, but it's not hopeless. She has an unstable imaginative mind subject to delusions which become very real to her. Oh, her obsession about the picture is not so bad. We all suffer occasionally from optical illusions. But hearing footsteps coming from the storeroom above her... The storeroom? How did you know there's a storeroom above her? Why, your wife told me about it. Oh, of course. Well, that storeroom hasn't been open in years. I guess there's no point in investigating it, is there? No, I don't think so. Those footsteps like the moving figure in the painting are all in her mind. Oh, her mother behaved just like that before she went mad, didn't she? Well, there's some similarity in... Say, you haven't been to the storeroom recently, have you? No, no, I just mentioned to you that it hasn't been open in years. Oh, yes, yes, so you did, so you did. Oh, I just hope that Julia will be all well for her party tomorrow. Well, I had no idea she was having a birthday. How old will she be? She'll be 23. Really? Well, I must remember to get her a gift. Well, I guess I'll go to bed. So will I. See you in the morning. But I wasn't thinking about my birthday when I stood alone inside my own room. Panic. Black, unreasoning panic began to take hold of me. In wild haste I began to undress, never looking at the picture and talking to myself. Yes, talking to myself all the while. Now, now, I won't look at it. I'll take some pills and fall asleep. All I have to do is keep from looking at the picture. It can't do me any harm. If I don't see it, I... I mustn't even think of it. I know, I'll think about the trip I made to South America. Oh, it was a wonderful trip. The sun sets and... What was that? Footsteps. Those footsteps again. But I mustn't hear it. I... I mustn't hear it. It was a wonderful trip. The blue Caribbean and... and Rio is a beautiful city in Sugarloaf Mountain and the music and the dancing. Why it... It's not the footsteps. It's just my heart beating. I know, I'll close my eyes. Oh, please, please let me sleep. I don't want to look at the picture. I won't. I know what I'll see. You'll be closer to her and maybe he'll have killed her. Oh, but I mustn't open my eyes. I mustn't. I won't. I... Oh, but I've got to look at it. He has moved. He's closer to the girl. I'm not dreaming. It's real, the girl. Why, it's me. That girl is me. Mia, I can't stand it. I... I can't, I can't. Oh, dear girl. Well, it's the same thing, Laura, again and again. I tried not to look at the picture, Laura. I tried so very hard, but it was hopeless. I had to. And the figure with the black scarf was inside the room. A knife in his hands, very close to the girl. But this time, the girl had turned around and... and it was my face. My face! Did you hear any footsteps? Yes. Yes, I heard them as soon as I got into the room, but... but the picture, it's... it's the same. It's changed. Look at it. Yes, the picture doesn't seem to have... What's the matter, Laura? Nothing. Nothing at all. There. There, did you hear it? Footsteps. There's probably a board creaking. Now you go to sleep. I think everything will be all right in the morning. Oh, and you won't leave me. No, Julia.  Oh, thank you, Laura. Thank you very much. Is that you where she's gone? She's left me alone. But I... I'm not alone. Something woke me. The picture. I... It's the picture. I must look at it again... if he's moved again. Oh, but I must look straight at it. I'll look straight at it. He's killed the girl. He stabbed her. He stabbed me. I'm the girl. And I've got to get out. Out! Now you're here. Why, you've come to life. In my room. The man in the black scarf. You... What do you want me to do? No. No, I won't run away. And I won't scream. What are you asking me? Do I want to spend the rest of my life in an asylum like my mother? No. No, I don't. I don't. You... you want me to open a window? Well, yes. Yes, I'll open it. You say... you say it would be best for everybody if I jump? Oh, yes. It's the only way out. The only way in. I'll do it. I'll do it now without even thinking it. It will... it will only take a... a moment. What are you doing? We came just in time. I've got a hobby. She's safe. I... I'm safe. You can come out from behind that chair, my friend. Friend? I... I don't understand. My head's going around in a circle. I was merely observing, Julia. The procedure was a little unusual. I'll admit it. I'll do the explaining, Dr. Barrow. You tried to drive Julia crazy. He... he tried to drive me crazy. That's right. He tried to do it with a picture. You're all making a serious mistake. A mistake? Look at the picture. The figure is inside the room stabbing the girl. No, it wasn't your imagination, Julia. He painted several pictures. The... the figure closer to the girl. He used the storeroom upstairs. That's why you heard footsteps. I got suspicious when I found a black scarf in his room. And when I look at the picture a little while ago, it was full of dust. I had dusted it off myself a few hours just before. Yes, and Dr. Barrow seemed to know there was a storeroom above you. I couldn't understand how he knew that. Because this old house of your father's had been closed for years. Oh, but why... why shouldn't he want to drive me crazy? Because he's not Dr. Barrow. What? It was all your cousin who disappeared many years ago. Everyone thought he was dead. He painted the picture originally, so it was easy for him.  Then contest the will, since he's the nearest blood relative. I had no intention of killing Julia. I swear I didn't. I just wanted to frighten her. I... I almost... I almost jumped out of the window. I... I might have been dead right now. Lying dead outside. Don't think about it, Julia, dear. It's all over now. You're all right. He may not... I'm not insane. Why, of course not, Julia. Oh, I almost forgot. Why, it's Thursday. Well, yes. Happy birthday, Julia.  It... it feels... wonderful. And so closes fear paints a picture in which Roma Wines have brought you Lana Turner, the star of tonight's study in Suspense. Suspense is produced, edited and directed by William Spear. Before our star returns to the microphone, Roma Wines, the sponsor of Suspense, bring you a brief message from that noted authority on smart entertaining Elsa Maxwell. A truly versatile wine for entertaining is Roma California Touquet. Serve with coffee or dessert, as a delightful finishing touch to your meals. Or set out Roma Touquet with cheese and crackers when friends drop in. Everyone enjoys this velvety, flame-colored wine. Yet, good as they are, Roma Wines cost only pennies a glass. So enjoy them often. Serve Roma with your everyday meals. Roma wine is delicious, and Roma quality never varies. Remember, more Americans enjoy Roma than any other wine. R-O-M-A, Roma Wines. The Roma Wine Company, with sales headquarters in San Francisco, joins with that city in welcoming the men of peace, the delegates to the United Nations Conference now in session. When their good work is completed, may the men of peace take back to their homes the memories of a friendly San Francisco. A city where live in harmony many people of many origins. A typically American city that speaks for all America when it says, May God bless you, men of peace, and speed you in your noble work. This is Lana Turner, and it was certainly a great pleasure and privilege to appear here tonight on this distinguished suspense stage, where you are accustomed to hearing the very best in dramatic radio entertainment. I appreciate very greatly the opportunity of playing a role somewhat different from the ones I usually do in pictures. Next week, my friend, that very excellent actor, John Garfield, will be your star of suspense. I know you will be listening, as I will. Lana Turner appeared through the courtesy of Metro Golden Mayor and is currently starred in their production, Keep Your Powder Dry. Next Thursday, you will hear John Garfield as star of Suspense. Presented by Roma Wines, R-O-M-A, made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. This is CBS, the Columbia Broadcasting System.


From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Oracle Modern Customer Experience 2017. Brought to you by Oracle. Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live in Las Vegas. This is theCUBE, Silicon Angles flagship program. We go out to the events, they extract the signal from the noise. Been here two full days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Peter Burris. Peter, really good to see Oracle really move from modern marketing experience, the old show name to a cleaner, broader canvas called Modern CX, which is Modern Customer Experience. And you're starting to see the new management, which took the baton from the old management, Kevin Akeroy, Andrew Ward, who did a lot of work. I mean, they basically did a ton of acquisitions. We talked last year, if you remember. Look, they have a data opportunity and we spilled it right out there and said if they can leverage that data horizontally and then offer that vertical specialism with differentiation, they could have their cake and eat it too, meaning the pillars of solutions in a digital fabric with data. That's what they did, they essentially did it. Yeah, they did. And it's been, it was a, we came here hoping that that's what we would see and that's what we saw, John. And Oracle not only has access to a lot of data, but a lot of that first person data that really differentiates the business. Information about your finances, information about your customers, information about orders. That's really, really crucial data and it's not easy to get. And if you could build a strategy for your customers, it says let's find ways of bringing in new sources of data, leveraging that data so that we can actually help you solve and serve your customers better. You got a powerful story, that's a great starting point. And one of the things that I would observe here is that this event, the top story was Mark Hurd came down and talked to the customers in the keynote and also made a cameo visit to the CMO some of which they had separately. But really kind of basically putting it transparently out there, look at this technology. Why are we spending all this technology and effort to get a 1% conversion rate on something that happens over here? Let's look at it differently. And I think the big story here is that Oracle puts the arc to the future, which I think is a very relevant trajectory, certainly directionally correct using data and then figuring out your process and implementing it. But really looking at it from a people perspective and saying, if you can use the data, focus your energies on that data to get new things going and not rely on the old so much, make it better, but bring in the new. And I think that's the one thing that we need to see more from Oracle, in all honesty, at this show and shows like this, is that, and we asked the question of a couple of guests, what exactly is modern marketing? Technology can allow a company to do the wrong things faster and cheaper. And in some cases that's bad, in marketing it's awful because more of the wrong thing amplifies the problem. That's how you take down a brand. You can really annoy the hell out of your customers pretty quickly. I think you made that point, interesting that I thought on that, just to reiterate that and validate that and amplify, is that if you focus more on serving the business as a marketer versus now it's about the customer, okay, which is why I like the CX and I know you do too, you can create enterprise value through that new way versus hey, look what team I'm helping you out with some leads and whatever, support, content. Marketing now owns the customer relationship. Well marketers talk about a persona all the time, John. They say, what's the persona? It's the stylized type of customer and now with data, we can make it increasingly specific, which is very, very powerful. I think Oracle needs to do the same thing with the marketing function. What is that marketing function persona? That Oracle is itself driving to, driving its customers to, and trying to lead the industry into. So I would personally like to see a little bit more about what will be the role of marketing in the future? What exactly is the modern, what exactly is modern marketing? What is the roadmap that Oracle has not just for delivering the technology, but for that customer transformation that they talk about so much. It's clear that they have an idea. I'd like to see a little bit more public because I think a lot of marketers need to know where they're going to end up. I was a bit skeptical coming in here today. I was a little nervous and skeptical. I liked the team and the other people here. But I wasn't sure they're going to be able to pull this off as well as they did. I'd give them a solid letter grade of an A on this event. Not an A plus because I think there's some critical analysis that's worth addressing in my opinion. I think in my opinion Oracle's missing some things. It's not to their fault. I mean, they're only going as fast as they can. Not to get your perspective too, but here's my take. They don't know how to deal with video. That came up as a technical issue. But J-Bear. But nobody really does. But nobody really does and that's just again because we're in the video because I jumped out at me. But J-Bear was on, who's hosted the CMO Summit. And he's out there too, like us. Content is a big thing. And I haven't heard a lot about the content equation in the marketing mix. So if you look at the modern marketing mix, content is data. Well, yes. Content is instrumental as a payload for email marketing. And we're in the content business. So we know a lot about the engagement side of it. So I just don't see a lot of the engagement conversations that are happening around content. I just don't see that dots connecting. And I think you're right. I think you're right, John. And part of the reason is that again, I think Oracle needs to do a better job of articulating what this means. From our perspective, and it's my perspective, but you agree, I'll put words in the mouth, is that marketing has to be a source of value to customers. Well, what do customers find valuable? They find information in easily digestible, consumable chunks as they go on their journey. What are those chunks? Those chunks, in fact, are content. So to tie this back and show how crucial this is, at the end of the day, consumers, businesses, need to learn about your brand, need to learn about Nesbest Action, all that other stuff in consumable, interesting, valuable chunks. And it ultimately ends up looking like content. So you're absolutely right. To talk about how this all comes together and show how the content is the mechanism by which a lot of this value is actually going to be delivered is really crucial. Now to give the praise sandwich, as we say, and positive coaching alliance, two positives, and then the critical analysis in the middle, that's the praise sandwich. So to give them some praise around the criticism, I will say that Oracle validates for me, and this is why I think they got a good strategy, that there's no silver bullet in marketing. Okay, there's no silver bullet. This product will get you more engagement. This will do that. They do show that data is going to be an intruable part of creating a series of collections of silver bullets, of bullets, if you will, to create that value. And I think that's the key. And then the second praise is that this is kind of nuance in their announcements, but the third party data support is a big deal in my mind. I want to expand more on that. I want to learn more about it because when you have the first party data, which is very valuable, and access to more data sources, that becomes increasingly interesting. So the extensibility for getting content data or other data can come in through third party. I think that opens the door for Oracle to innovate on the area we gave them criticism on. So I think that's a positive trend. I think that's a good outlook on having the ability to get that third party data. Yeah, but it's also going to be one of the places where Oracle's going to have to compete very, very aggressively with some other leaders who are a little bit more oriented towards content. At least some of their marketing costs are a little bit more content-oriented. I'm comfortable with Oracle, we'll get there, because let's face it, at the end of the day, marketing's always done a pretty good job of creative, using data to figure out what creative to use or create is nice, very important, but what we're really talking about is customer experience, where the customer gets something out of every interaction, and while content's crucial to that, the end result is ultimately, is the customer successful, and Oracle's showing a better play for that. So I'll give you, I think I like the way you did it on the grading. I'll give them a B plus, but I'm not disagreeing with you, I think we saw eight talent here, we saw an A minus story, and they're a year in. So there's still some work that needs to be done, but there's clearly, I'll give you a way to add a B plus. I'll give them an A on a vector, and where they're going, and the feedback that we've gotten from the customers walking the show floor, there's a lot of excitement, a lot of positive energy. The other thing that I would say, the band was, I'd give the band not a, I mean, band was a B minus.  What was the band last night? I don't even remember, we missed the good one, I know that Don and I, we had dinner, so we came late, cause it was a good band, it wasn't like, it wasn't like Maroon 5, or One Republic, or Imagine Dragons, or U2, you know. Or one of the big ones, Sting, C minus. But the other thing that I think is really important is, at least it pertains to modern customer experience, is that they are, they are absolutely committed to the role that data's going to play. And we talked about that right at the front. But they are demonstrating a deep knowledge of how data and data integration and data flows are really going to impact the way their customers' businesses operate. And I think that there were a couple of, a couple of, I'll give a really high point, and one that I want to hear more about in terms of the interviews that we had, great high point was when we talked a lot about data science and how data science technologies are being productized. And that we heard, for example, that Oracle's commitment to its marketplace is that they are going to ensure that their customers can serve their customers' customers with any request within 130 milliseconds, anywhere in the world. That's a very, very powerful statement that you can only really make if you're talking about having an end-to-end role over, or infrastructure. Well, we commented, that's a good point. We commented that this end-to-end architecture is going to be fundamental. If you read the tea leaves and look at other things happening like at Mobile World Congress, Intel, I think is a bellwether on this with 5G, because they have to essentially create this overlay for connectivity as well as network transformation to do autonomous vehicles, to do smart cities, to do, to do smart home, all these new technologies going on. It's an end-to-end IP architecture. It's connected devices. They're super smart to have this connected data theme, which I think is relevant. But the other one, Ron Coperser has talked about this evolution. And I find some things, I want to get your reaction to this statement. So Ron was kind of like, oh, it's an evolution. We've seen this movie before, okay, great. But when you talk to Marta Federici, who was a customer from Royal Philips, she's head of CRM, now she's doing some of the stuff. So okay, what does CRM mean? If you think evolution, what the customers are doing, Time Warner and Royal, it's interesting. Certain things are becoming critical infrastructure and other things are becoming more dynamic and fluid. So if you believe in evolution, these are layers of innovation. So stuff can be hardened as critical infrastructure, say like email marketing. So I think that what's happening here is you start to see some hardening of some critical infrastructure, AKA marketing technology, MarTechStack, maybe some consolidation, AdTech kind of comes together. Certain things are going to be hardened and platformized. Well, let's take the word hardened and change it, because I know what you mean. It's, let's say it's codified. Now why is that little distinction a little bit interesting? It's because the more codified it gets, the more you can put software on it, the more you can put software on it, the more you can automate it. And now we're introducing this whole notion of the adaptive intelligence. Whereas we start to see marketing practices and processes become increasingly codified. What works, what doesn't work? What should we do more of? What should we do less of? Where should we be spending our time in innovating versus where should we just be doing it because it's a road activity at this point in time? That's where introducing this adaptive intelligence technology becomes really interesting because we can have the adaptive technology elements handle that deeply codified stuff where there really is not a lot of room for invention and give the more interesting, ongoing customer engagement, customer experience. Right on, I think we should challenge Oracle post-event and keep an eye on them on this adaptive intelligence app concept because that is something that they should ride to the sunset because that is just a beautiful positioning and if they can deliver the goods on that, they say they have it, we'll expand on that. That's going to give them the ability to do churn out a ton of apps and leverage the data. But to the codified point you're making, here's my take. One of the things that I hear from customers in marketing all the time is a lot of stuff is, oh yeah, mobile first, but still stuff's web presence-based. So you got all these coded URLs, you got campaigns running 10 ways from Sunday, DNS is not built to be adaptive and flexible, so it's okay to codify some of those systems and say, look, we just don't tinker with these anymore. They're locked and loaded, you build on top of it, codify it, and make that data the enabling technology. Without it becoming a new inflexible. Yeah, I can't say, hey, let's just tweak the hardened infrastructure to run an AB test on a campaign or do something. No, no, you set the codified systems, you harden them, you put software on top of them, and you make it a subsystem that's hardened, and that's kind of what I mean. That's where the market will go because, let's face it, I mean, the systems aren't that intelligent to handle other marketing. There's still computers. There's still computers, people are running around just trying to fix some of this spaghetti code in marketing, and as the marketing department gets more IT power, hey, you own it, they're owning it now, so don't be afraid what you wish for, you might get it, right? So now they own the problem. So I think Oracle on the services side has a huge opportunity to do what they do with Time Warner. Come into the market and say, hey, we got that for you, and that's what Herd's kind of subtle message was on his keynote. Hey, we're IT pros, but by the way, you don't need to be in the IT business to do this. We have fixed your problems and roll out this. We already talked to you in your language, in your language, it's a modern customer experience, which is one of the reasons why they've got to be more aggressive. And by the way, and we have all the data in our data cloud, and all the first part data in our Oracle databases, that system of record becomes the crown jewel. Oracle has a lock spec on the table. Do you think it's a lock spec? No, and that's exactly why I think they need to articulate where this is all going a little bit. They have to be a leader in defining what the future of marketing looks like, so they can make it easier for people to move forward. Putting you in the spot, what do you think a modern marketing looks like, an organization? We talked about this, and the answer that I gave and all of all of it slightly, because we had another great guest and I thought about it a little bit more, is a brand continuously and always delivers customer value, always. And one of the things- Kind of cliche-ish. Kind of cliche-ish. Dig into it. But modern marketing is focused on delivering customer value. How? If they deliver, well, for example, when the customer has a moment in a journey of uncertainty, your brand is first to the table with that content that gets them excited, gets them comfortable. On a progression. On a progression field ready to move forward. That you're, and this is, I was going to, while making another point in a second. And I would even say that we might even think about a new definition of the funnel at the risk of bringing up that old artifact. Historical funnel like to sail. Now we can actually start thinking about what's that funnel look like to customer success? Well, there's two funnel dynamics that are changing. This is important. I think this is going to be one of those moments where, wow, theCUBE actually unpacked a major trend, and I believe it to be true. The vertical funnel is collapsed, and now the success funnel is not done. It's not baked. Not baked, not decimated from this perspective of if the sale is the end game of the funnel, pop out, that's over. Your point is, it's kind of like venture funding for a startup, that's when the start line begins. So here, it's, okay, we got a sale, but now we have instrumentation to take it all the way through the life cycle. And you know, John, that's a great way of thinking about it. In many respects, when you introduce a customer to a new solution that has complex business implications, that you are jointly together making an investment in something, and you both have to see it through. I mean, sales guys put investment proposal on the... That's exactly right. And so I think increasingly, so I would say modern marketing comes down to customer success. And prediction I'll make for next year is that this session is called the modern marketing, modern customer experience show, but the theme is going to be customer success. Here's what I'm going to do, here's what I'm going to do this year, Peter. We're going to, we will, based upon this conversation of which we're riffing in real time as we analyze and summarize the event, we, I will make it my mission and you're going to work with me on this as a directive. We're going to interview people, we're going to pick people that are truly modern marketing executives. That's great. We're going to find a simple algorithm that says this is what we think a modern marketing executive looks like. And we're going to interview them, we're going to do a story on them, and we're going to start to unpack, because I think next year, we should be coming here saying, we actually did our work on this. We figured out, we figured out that a modern marketing organization and an executive behave and look this way. Right, I think it's a great idea. I'll give you one more thought because I know you like this one too. Doug Kennedy, the partner conversation. Very good.  Seven weeks into the job, but that is going to be, for this whole thing to succeed, he's got a lot of work in front of him. It's going to be very interesting to see how over the course of time, this show and other Oracle shows evolve. Look, I have a lot of partner experience, you do too. He's got a zillion years under his belt. He's a pro. He did not have any deer in the headlights look for seven weeks in the job. He's been there. He's done that. He knows the industry. He's seen the cycles of change. He's ridden ways of innovation up and down. And I think Oracle has a huge opportunity with his new program. And that is, Oracle knows how to make money. Okay, Oracle knows how to price things. They know how to execute on the sales side and go to market. And partners relationships are grounded in trust and profitability. And I would say profitability first and trust second and then it's kind of a virtuous circle. But John, they got to start getting grounded in customer experience, right? Yeah, yeah. And that's not, it's doable, but it's going to be a challenge. Well, we talked about swim lanes with his interview and I thought that was interesting. If you look at Accenture, for instance, Deloitte, PWC and all the different players, they're picking their swim lanes with their core competencies. And that's what he was basically saying. They're going to look for core competency. Now, I think they're not there yet. These, the major SIs and potential partners. So he's going to have to put the spec out and put the bar there and say, this is what we got to do. But you got to make the channel serve the customer. It has to be profitable and it has to be relevant. And the only danger to strategy, I would say, is the co-selling thing is always dicey. Especially if one has customer experience as a primary. It requires equilibrium in the ecosystem. If it doesn't there. It's a multi-partner go to market. It's not just one or two now. So he's going to have to really spread the love at the same time, have us harden rules, stick to his knitting on that one. Okay, Peter, final word. What do you bottom line the show? Encapsulate the show into a bumper sticker. Well, we heard Amazon release today, Google release today, beat their numbers. Two companies that are trying to build an ecosystem from their core of the cloud. And the question is, is Oracle, who has customers with applications and with that first person data, are they going to be able to cloudify, sorry for using that word, but are they going to be able to gain that trust that this new operating model they're really committed to for the future before Amazon and Google can accrete applications to their platform. Because Oracle has the end to end advantage right now. And in the world where digital is important, speed is important, the fidelity of the data is important, the customer experience is important, that end to end has a window of opportunity. And I would also add two other companies reported, Microsoft and Intel and MIST. So you have Amazon and Google, New Guard, Newer Guard, Old Guard, Intel, Microsoft, Oracle is considered Old Guard, even though they have some modernization going on from CX in the cloud, but Oracle is cloud 100% in the cloud. Their SAP for instance is going multi-cloud. So the wild card in all this is if the multi-cloud game evolves. End to end, end to end, because that has advantages. When you're talking data, one of the things that Jack Berkowitz said, he said, you know why we can hit that 150 millisecond target? Because you don't have to move the data around. Sometimes we don't have to move the data. This is going to be very interesting and this is going to be fun to watch and participate. Of course theCUBE will cover Oracle Open World, we'll be there again this year. We don't have the exact specifics on that, but certainly if you're interested in checking us out we're silkandangle.com, Peter's research is at wikibond.com as well as silkandangle on the front page. Silkandangle.tv is all the videos and we will be documenting and following the modern marketing experience with people and companies and documenting that on theCUBE and in Silkandangle. So that's a wrap from day two at Oracle Modern CX. Thanks for watching.