Today, we're going to talk about a guy named Jason Rounsberg. Greg, why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to watch? Yeah, so this is from an interrogation. I believe it's interrogation number two, oddly enough. This is the attorney general for South Dakota. The incident is he's driving at night through South Dakota and runs over a civilian who is walking along in the middle of the night with a flashlight. I'll leave it at that in terms of the details because you'll see the story unfold as we go. So I just want to go back a little bit to when the accident happened.  What is the very last thing you remember about hitting, you know, at impact? I think that I had just shut the radio off and looked down at the speedometer, okay?  Okay. And I showed him to get to the... Do you remember how you were feeling when you were driving home from Redfield that night? I mean, I feel an entire fatigue at all. I do not feel fatigued. I felt normal, normal driving. I did not feel fatigued. So, okay. Do you remember were you using your phone at all for anything besides to make a couple of phone calls? I know the only phone calls I made were to my father, which ended prior to Miller. Yep, okay. I'd set... I have two phones, as you know.  Okay. You know, I do not have the phone in my hands when that crash happened. I had, you know, my hands on the wheel and looking at the speedometer. Okay. So, it's best I can rely on that. So... All right, Greg, what do you got? I'll try to be short on this one, but this is a great start to the videos because I'm going to give you four things he's doing. Number one is he's avoiding. Number two is he's shielding. Number three is he's editing. And number four is he's got a mantra. And we're going to see that mantra play out through all these videos. And that mantra is I put down the phone, I turned down the radio, and I looked at the speedometer. And it's the most rehearsed thing we're going to see through the whole thing. His avoidance is he faces down. He shrinks or turtles. And then he says when they ask him a question about texting the only calls I made and then he's avoiding the actual question. He goes into chaff and redirect about multiple phones to get away from the thing. And then he does the best avoidance as I remember because if I don't remember, I can't answer. When in the shielding, there's a great moment that we're going to see over and over and over when he gets poked. When he says, let's go back, his right foot goes forward, his left foot goes forward, his hands drop to them and he breaks down in eye contact, almost in surrender. If I saw that happen, it is a baseline deviation and I would climb all over him in interrogation. So, there you go. And then finally, this is an attorney, not just an attorney, an attorney general and an Army Lieutenant Colonel about to make Colonel.  Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. Right at the moment when he says when the accident happened, the investigators asking this question, you'll see him spread his legs apart and plant both of his feet one at a time. And this is him bracing and getting ready for something, in my opinion, that's that's happening there that he's prepared. He's widening his stance to prepare the body for combat and you're going to see this behavior again in a completely different way. And when he said upon impact, he's spending a lot of time. He's completely avoidant of eye contact here. And when he said, feel and tired, I feel and tired. There's I think there's an accidental shift to present tense speech during this. And he also says he doesn't say I did not feel fatigued. He says I do not feel fatigued. I think that's what's what's happening right there. He's saying I don't I do not have the phone in my hands when accidentally shifting again to the present tense. And when he's looking at this pedometer, I think it's interesting he's putting it really far down. That's pedometer is just like, if I'm looking at this thing way down here, there's no way I can see the road.  And as far as red flags go, in my opinion, this is pretty bad. And I think it's gonna get worse in the next few videos. Scott, what do you got? I totally agree. You got a couple of things that I kind of not do. Anyway, these are all, these are classic cues that you look for as an interrogator. And any of us going in there and seeing this would go, ah, I got me one here because he's showing all, he's nervous. He's doing the classic barriers and illustrators. And the way he's delivering his illustrators, let us know that something's not right there. Now as we go through this, we always get asked in the comments, what are illustrators? We talk about these things. Illustrators are the way that a person, their brain, emphasizes specific words and phrases. Like I did just then, specific words and phrases.  They, what their voice sounds like. Is it really high? Is it really low? Are they talking fast? Are they talking slow? Is it jerky with a lot of spaces and spots in between it? How are they talking to you? That's the baseline. What are their illustrators doing? Are they really big or are they really small? In this case, we see him coming out of the gate with some pretty good ones at this point. But as we get further in, we're gonna see these things come off the mark. They're not in sync. Yeah, his illustrators are not in sync with what he's saying. With when he's supposed to be hitting them, he's supposed to be hitting them. And sometimes he'll put in extra ones. That's when it doesn't mean he's lying or telling the truth. It simply means there's an issue there. So when you see that, you know, he's thinking as this is going on, which he should be for the situation he's in at this point. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so first of all, when you're watching this right now, pay no attention to that dog in the background because I'm about to tell you something that will really help you.  I don't care whether you've done it or you haven't done it, especially if you haven't done it. You need a lawyer. You shouldn't be in there just talking to the police. I mean, I know we all wanna help the police, okay? And that's a good and admirable thing, but you're gonna easily get yourself into trouble and that can happen if you have not done anything. So get yourself a lawyer. Don't say anything, get yourself a lawyer. It's your right in many, many countries in the world. Okay, now, I think everybody's absolutely accurate here. He has really locked himself down. He has a certain level of preparation here. He's thought about it. He thinks he has a strategy around this. And I think that's made him very optimistic about this and that's probably why he doesn't have a lawyer in there. He thinks he's got this handled. And it's pretty good. He has locked himself down. He's not getting eye contact, so he's shaded himself, he's buried himself. He probably thinks this is gonna be okay, but here's what I pick up on. I want you to notice that he strokes one thumb on the other. He self soothes around the idea of the phone. So I've never seen this guy before. I don't know what's going on here, but the moment I saw that when he's talking about the phone, I went, so there's something about the phone here. This is an important aspect of that because I see him do this nowhere else other than on the phone, about this phone aspect. So let's see whether that plays out. You probably know that it plays out, but I didn't know. So that's kind of interesting that I could pick up just that based on a small little movement when he thinks he's got it all knuckled down. Always get yourself a lawyer. There, I'm done. Best advice of the day. Yeah. So I just want to go back a little bit when the accident happened.  What is the very last thing you remember about hitting at impact? I think that I had just shut the radio off and looked down at the speedometer. Okay.  And then I think I looked down at the speedometer for I just seen the speed sign and I did not engage the cruise. Okay. And I showed him to get to the... Do you remember how you were feeling when you were driving home from Redfield that night? I mean, were you feeling tired, fatigued at all? I do not feel fatigued. I felt normal, normal driving. I did not feel fatigued, so. Okay. Do you remember were you using your phone at all for anything besides to make a couple phone calls? The only phone calls I made were to my father which ended prior to Miller. Yeah, okay. I'd set, I have two phones as you know. One was on the passenger seat and the other one was on my console. And I did not use them then. Okay. I do not have the phone in my hands when that crash happened. I had my hands on the wheel and looking at the speedometer. Okay. It is best I can rely on that. So. Here we go. So your phones, when to unlock them, do you use a, like mine I can use, I can use a code or my phone. I think my kids can actually use a facial recognition thing.  Right. How are yours set up? One doesn't have anything and... Which one doesn't have anything? The personal phone, the droid. No security on that. Okay. And how about your work phone? You have to punch code in. That's the one. So you can't just use a thumb print or anything like that. You actually got to enter in a code. How many numbers is your core? Four numbers. Okay. But you don't remember using your phone for anything other than phone calls? Right. To your dad that night on the way home? Right, yeah. Okay. All right, Chase, what do you got? When he's saying the droid, I want you to notice how his hands appear to be pretty honest. He's moved to holding a phone with his hands unconsciously. So we're seeing him do some unconscious body and narrating there to the story. And when this topic of the speedometer comes up, his hands are very low. And I think he's subconsciously showing us that there's no way, there's no possible way that he could have seen the road because he was doing the right thing. I couldn't see the road because I was holding my phone because I was doing the right thing by checking this phenomenon. And that I think is the story that started coming forward. And when the investigator asked, but you don't remember using your phone, there is a back into the chair and then you'll see his hands again, bracing again. So we'll see more bracing himself. And we're gonna see this yet another time here in just a few minutes. Bracing for a story or bracing to prepare for some kind of deception potentially. The goal would be in this as an investigator or an interrogator here, the goal would be to get him into a place of comfort before I ask any more questions. And then I'm gonna watch for this bracing movement to start repeating itself later on in the conversation. And that's all I got on that one, Greg. Yeah, so change is everything. We tell you this all the time. The most important thing you'll notice is a baseline deviation. Well, no one in an interrogation, and that's what this is, regardless of what you think it is, no one in an interrogation is feeling stress-free, not even the investigator. Well, the investigators are masterfully doing here are asking leading questions that allow him to feel comfort with a yes or no answer as they're slowly eliminating his options down the way. I always taught my students, interrogation is like walking someone down a tree. The first time you take a step out of a limb, the other limbs are not accessible to you. And that's what they're doing to him is they're eliminating and pairing options. And you'll watch him, they did a brilliant thing. They set him in a rotating chair and he does this. I love that. It's one of my favorite things to do to a source because they're gonna move and tell you something. He also barriers and then starts to adapt and finger count. He appears, it's hard to see in this video, but he appears to be milling his jaw. And then when he says as best as I can recollect, you see his brain working through his hands. He's illustrating what he's thinking.  And Mark, I'm sure you'll have something about joints, but this is one of those places where change is everything and we're seeing a lot of change here. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with both of you. What we see in that lockdown is a radical change because he's locking out the joints. He's bracing himself for something pretty big. And it comes on, you don't remember using your phone for anything other than phone calls. So we know that because there's such a radical change there, it's something about the phone and it's something to do with that it may be something else than phone calls, okay? Something else was happening had, my guess is distracted him around that. Now that movement where he locks himself down onto the chair, that's what I call the ride of death.  He's gone from the front of the chair. You'll see it on fairground rides, you know, when people start locking themselves in. So it really feels like the interrogators here, the questioners here have very quickly got him to quite a high level of stress here that it's like he's about to just go over the precipice and he's braced for that. So quite extraordinary. Scott, what do you got on this one? I agree. And I saw that as you've seen those videos on TikTok and everything and on YouTube and on Instagram where people, two people sitting in those little chairs and they shoot them up real high. One of them passes out or vomits. That's what he looks like he's getting ready to do to me like he's in an ejector seat or something. But that looks the very same. When you watch this again, take a look at that.  Having somebody in a chair like that is wonderful. Having wheels on it and having one that squishes around. Man, there's nothing like it in the world. And so after each question is that is the truth where he starts talking about the droid, you know, is insecure or not secured the droid, then everything's pretty much he's pretty calm at that point, which kind of goes beyond or goes past what we know from Aldrich Bray where he said that where those studies show that the illustrator gets smaller as you become deceptive or as you don't tell the truth. But his illustrator is not just getting smaller. They were actually on point though. Time wise, they were in sync with what he was saying. They hit on time, they hit where they should hit. They hit when they should hit. And they bounce in the correct rhythm for those things. Now, after he starts talking to him about the code, this is when he starts to lock down a little bit. We actually see a grimace on his face. He starts chewing on his mouth a little bit later on. It's really good, we'll talk about that. But he gets a grimace on his face after he asks him how many numbers it is to get in him. When he asks him about the four, because he knows at this point, it's dawn on how they're gonna get in his phone and find out exactly what happens. Then, he's really, I agree, again, Mark, this is really where it feels like at this point. It feels like it, but he's not quite there yet. He's getting ready to just go down the other side of the roller coaster, but that's not quite there yet. So, your phones, when to unlock them, do you use a, like, mine, I can use a code or my phone. I think my kids can actually use a facial recognition thing.  Right. How are yours set up? One doesn't have anything, and... Which one doesn't have anything? The personal phone, the droid. No security on that? No security on that one. Okay, and how about your work phone? You have to punch code in. That's the one. So, you can't just use a thumb print or anything like that. You actually gotta enter in a code. How many numbers is your core? Four numbers. Okay. But you don't remember using your phone for anything other than phone calls? Or to your dad that made him the way home? Right, yeah. Okay. All right, we good? Yeah. All right. So, were you using your phone, besides for the phone called to your dad, which we know, that's right. Were you using your phone at all for any other activities on that drive home that night? I don't believe, I didn't have any texts that I sent. And typically, if I would text, I would do voice to text, which I know I didn't do that. And the work email, but I didn't do any of that. That's what I remember. Okay. You don't remember signing into a Gmail account, though? It was hard to get to where you need to go. That was the hard one to get to. Right. Yeah. But you do have two yahoo. Yes. The codes. Do you remember signing into either of those?  They auto-fill. Okay. So you'd have to go in and then click sign in. They would be there. And then probably another sign in thing or whatever. Is that correct? Correct, yes. Okay. Do you remember being on either of those? It's possible that I could have checked those, yeah. Okay. All right. Do you ever go in the Dakota Free Press? Yes. What is that? That's a blog. Okay. That's a blog here of politics, yes. Oh, it's a political blog? Yeah. Okay. And then there's another one then, Dakota War College. Okay. Also a blog. All right. I guess you see what the headlines are, more than anything, yes. How about real clear politics? Okay, yes. Okay, what's that one? Politics and it has a whole bunch of stories and stuff of the day. But that's more national politics, yeah. Oh, okay. All right. So that's more of a national site, not as a Dakota Free Press, as a South Dakota political blog? Yes. Okay. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I just got one thing. When he kind of locks down by resting his head on his hands, I believe that's him kind of locking down. He's trying to control things. But look at his other hand and just notice the, as Chase would call it, digital flexion that's going on there, very subtle, very repetitive. And I think this is a key indicator, number one that he can't lock himself down. The stress always shows. And it's so repetitive at that point that I wonder whether his mind already is starting to flip out. Already he's starting to dissemble. Now, by the end of all these videos, you're going to see some very odd, I think, highly repetitive movement that suggests to me he's totally fallen apart. I think this is the start of him falling apart. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, Mark, the reason he's starting to fall apart is they're starting an incremental confession. That's what I would call it. I used to have a woman that was kind of my protégé named Emily. And I said she was the pit bull terrier of interrogation. She would go in and take one bite and you'd say, okay, if you just bite me once, it's okay. He would make you think she's going to stop. And it just never stopped. She was just one of the best interrogators ever had. This is interesting because he does that same move. We could call it the sumo wrestler where he stomps one foot than the other foot and then puts his hands down on it and drops his head.   So you can see he's starting to come apart a little bit about. Now, I'll also tell you, if he felt guilty, he could be doing some of the same stuff. But he starts to change. I saw the same thing you did with his hands. I have my note here. He looks like a catcher signaling the pitcher. His hands down there doing something over and over and over. He also then edits and doesn't finish his sentence and he starts a practice of non-committal answers, which is a powerful thing. And it makes me know he's avoiding something. He does that stamp twice. One, when they get to the real clear politics, he actually stomps a foot. So it's interesting to watch. And he is starting to give up information about these pieces. He's trying to be helpful, but in the process of being helpful, he's starting to give up an incremental confession. And this is a beautiful job by these interrogators because what they're doing is not assaulting him and say, you did this, you did this. They're saying, well, we know you did this and maybe you did that. And you start to see this change and we'll hear his voice change in a minute. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I think they did a great job of it. At first that table was bothering me because it was so big. And then the other interrogator was so far away, but the second one is right there on top of him. But he's made himself this little box and Greg, you call it sacred space. That little, when he braces himself, he gets his legs out there and all that.  And he makes this little box to live in while he thinks. And he's under the impression, psychologically he's safe, I think at that point because that's what he's trying to find. There's a little bit of room to get in there if they can say and be safe. But we see that go away a few minutes as well. When he starts talking about where you're using your phone at all, where you're using your phone at all, that's when we see the braces embrace and get ready. So that's what you were talking about earlier, Greg. As you go, is the thing to look for since we're all going to come to the same stuff here, if you're talking to someone, it's about a problem you've got. Not only did you take the whatever it was or whatever it is, it becomes a long conversation. Watch for these things that this guy's doing. Watch for him to start making little barriers between you and them. Watch for the little adapters, like with his hand down there. Watch what he does with that. Watch where they put their hands. Or what are they pushing on? Are they pushing on their shoulder? Are they pushing on their face? Pay attention to what's going on there because that lets you know. It doesn't mean they're lying or telling the truth. It just says there's an issue there. If there's an issue there, you've got to ask more questions, which of these guys are doing to find out what the issue is at that point? Most people are in the impression that interrogation is all tell me where this is. Where's the girl? Where's the that? They're stomping around and hitting stuff. It's just like this. This is the way you do it. We saw Jim Smith do it masterfully. And this is the way it happens. And it's all this little, and in this case, it's like one little teeny-weenie step. One little teeny-weenie step and you get into a greet of things. Then they're going to pile all these things he's agreed to and stick them up his hind end in just a couple of minutes. After he's agreed to all this stuff he's done, he doesn't realize what he's doing. So I think they're doing a great job at this. Chase, what do you got?  I agree with everybody. Mind blown. But I have a couple more things here that I think are pretty interesting. There's a killer phrase in here that you'll never hear. I've never heard in any other interview. He says, I guess that's what I remember. That's the best. That's the best. I think this is just couching testimony inside of couched testimony. And when they're trying to signing into this Gmail account, I think the interrogator does a fabulous job of pulling out documents before the question is asked. That's very important in interrogations is to pulling this out, this action of pulling something out and referencing this and then asking a question, especially if the documents look official. And when this happens, you're going to see full body fear. The stomach is getting covered, the brachial arteries are getting covered, the radials getting covered, the femoral arteries getting covered and the carotid arteries getting covered. All of this is kind of locking down to protect the arteries of the body and our bodies during feeling fear make us start protecting arteries and make us protect vital organs. And when he's saying, did you sign into any of these? Did you sign into one of these email addresses? There's another full body artery protection again. And now we have a great baseline. But this is a different baseline than what you usually hear us talk about. This is a deception baseline. So they know that this person's been on the phone and they're asking questions to determine what it looks like during normal periods of deception. So this is a whole different baseline. We talk about it all the time. This is a different category. This is the deception side of it. And when they're talking about blogs and news, another incredible job by this interviewer interrogator asking about more truthful descriptions. He does not care what these websites are, but he's asking so he sees the difference in the scale of these two wildly different behaviors here. Great illustrators and body narration, moving to hands to talk about these news articles. But now, since this interrogator masterfully did this, we can look for the absence of these truth indicators. And we look for the presence of the deception baseline that we just got. That's all I got. Excellent. So were you using your phone, besides for the phone called to your dad, which we know? I mean, that's right. Were you using your phone at all for any other activities on that drive home that night? I don't believe, I didn't have any texts that I sent. And typically if I would text, I would do voice to text, which I know I didn't do that. And the work email, but I didn't do any of that. I guess that's what I remember. Okay. You don't remember signing into a Gmail account though? Which is always hard to get to. Where do you need to go? That one's the hard one to get to. Right. Yeah. But you do have two Yahoo accounts. Do you remember signing into either of those?  They auto-fill. Okay. So you'd have to go in and then click sign in. They would be there and then probably another sign in thing or whatever. Is that correct? Correct, yes. Okay. Do you remember being on either of those? It's possible that I could have checked those, yeah. Okay. All right. Do you ever go into the court of free press? Yes. What is that? That's a blog. Okay. That's a blog here, politics, yes. Oh, it's a political blog? Yeah. And there's another one then, Dakota War College. Okay. Also a blog. All right. Yes, you see what the headlines are more than anything, yes. How about real clear politics? Okay, yes. Okay, what's that one? Politics and it has a whole bunch of stories and stuff of the day, but that's more national politics, yeah. Oh, okay, all right. So that's more of a national site, not as a court of free press as a South Dakota political blog? Yes. Okay. Good one. Yeah, you're late, Mark. Well, here, I'll kind of show you what I'm getting at. Yeah, absolutely, yes, absolutely. So here's kind of the information that was put together on your phone from, and here's our times. So outgoing call 1024, because that's what time you made the 911 call. So, and that's all fine in Dandy, you know? But leading up to that, at 1020, you unlock your phone, signed into your Yahoo mail account. Also then, and then signed out. 102049, you were on the Dakota Free Press site. They're all on your work phone. A minute later, you were on the real clear politics website. Okay. And then about a minute later, this article was pulled up through the, just the news, which could have been something that, you were on this and it had a link to quit to get you to this one. Regarding this, it's an article about Joe Biden and something, and with China. So you were on that up to about, we're gonna estimate probably a minute before the accident. You were on that. Do you remember any of these? Well, I remember looking at it, but that's when I set my phone down prior to, yeah. All right, Greg, what do you got? This is my favorite video in the entire thing because we can see him starting to realize the gig is up. I think he thought they were gonna hammer him right here.  He's looking down to his left and he's locked in himself and he suddenly comes out of it and goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I think what he's doing is thinking now, where am I going now? And then he gets interrupted from that. So he comes out of it in an overly helpful kind of a personality. And what these guys are doing is they're setting him up so they can go in micro interview and start taking every one of these things apart. They now know that every time he makes a deviation like that stamping of the foot, they know something's going on in his head. So they'll do what I call a micro interview or what we call a micro interview. Whereas I'm running along and there's a deviation. Now I'm going to focus only on that spot. And the entire interview becomes about that two seconds and they're starting to do that now. They're going back and they're taking this apart. He becomes overly helpful, he's mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And we can hear his respiration has changed so that his voice tone is starting to change. When he believes, when he says, I believe he does that foot stamp again, we hear that. He does that shrinking, mm-hmm. What I think this is, Scott, where you're calling it like sacred space, I agree. I think it's also his intake posture or his acceptance posture. I can't do anything about this. So I'm going to lock myself down and sit right here and not give away any more than I have to. You can see his hands on his knee and his other hand is up on his jaw. Then he starts to go hammering down with that hand. I think what we're seeing here is incremental admission. He isn't resisting the message. He's not saying, no, no, no, no. He's just not committing. He's not lying. He's evading committing. So he's saying, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. He's not ever going to say, yes, that happened. So later you can say, boom. Now, does this mean that he intentionally covered none of that? But what it does is tell us, he's in the box. He's getting pressure in a way. A guy like this is probably not accustomed to. And this is tough. Scott, what do you got? All right, yeah. So this is really good because there's zeroing in on that time between the 911 call and the actual hit. So, because he knows they know this, but he's not sure that they know all the details or can get to the details that show he would do that if he was guilty. So when the interrogator says, oh, after he shows them that he says, this is when the 911 call happened. And he says, but leading up to that, that's when his arm goes up. That's when he starts making that. He makes that little thing with his hand. He starts, it's actually, I think it's a barrier and an adapter at the same time. That's what's helping build his little, his sacred space, his little room there as well. You'll see these adapters like that in congressional hearings when, for example, a great one was when Hillary Clinton used her, she put her hand on her face, but she put it down here and just pushed real hard.  Not like a Parkinson's shake, not like a tremor. It was from the pushing so hard, which helps relieve, that sends a message to your brain to relax. Same thing happens when people touch their mouth. So my push is under the lips or touches their lips. That sends a little message to the brain. It says, hey man, you need to relax a little bit. It sums up. And it's also called facial denting. When you see people do that, I think Joe Navarro was the one that came up or that coined that. It's a really big deal here too because when he says, one minute before the accident, that's what it was. He says, one minute before the accident, do you remember any of these? And he talks about the sites he was talking about. And that's when he puts up that barrier and making the, he's got his barrier going, but he's still using these big illustrators as he's talking about that. As he's pushing on his face and doing that, he's still, so it's really bizarre. It's almost like a half and half. Over here he's trying to become. The other half's trying to explain as he goes along. It's really weird looking. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just one thing on this, which is just that massive, massive change from how he is, which is still braced and relatively relaxed to when the paper is produced. And just as you were saying, Greg, he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he gets in there. It's a massive difference. Go back and look at that again. See how the space around this person changes. It's a huge difference. And the important thing about this is, they managed to disrupt his pattern of behavior with a piece of paper. That's all they did is go, there you go. Have a look at that. Huge difference. Now they're in control of his body. You're gonna see, they take it away. He relaxes back again. So, they really do have control over him at this point. Again, reason why you don't wanna be on your own in the room with two guys like that. You may have done it. You may have not done it, but you don't want to be on your own. You need somebody else to help control your body because very soon he's gonna start falling apart around this. Now, maybe for good reasons, because maybe he's done something, maybe he hasn't. I'm sure you've already made up your minds, but you need some help in these situations. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I totally agree with you guys. And when the interrogator slides that across the table, Mark, you're talking about how much control they're exerting here. I would say if this is you, or if you're in a similar situation, get them leaning in. Don't slide it all the way across the table. Slide it halfway. Keep your hand on it, which is a nonverbal signal to, I'm not handing this to you. I need you to take a look at it. So what we're doing is we're manufacturing the body language that we want in the other person. I want them interested in me. I want them focused on me. So I'm gonna force them to start leaning in. I'm gonna try to as best I can to maintain that behavior. It's the same in sales or anything else. I want to manufacture the body language before I need that body language to be present. So anyway, as he walks through these articles, this is where digital flexion comes in handy.  Just kind of bringing that in a little more into awareness. I can't see facial expressions or eyes right now. So I'm gonna just let those fingers take the spotlight for just a few seconds here. And I think the phone, he's saying the phones were never touched while driving. Kind of that was his message until now. And now they were, yeah, but just a little bit. So this story, we're seeing something different come out here. So this was prepared. This guy has like four, he's got four different or five different email accounts. His wife should be looking into that, I think, at this point. Dude, what are you doing with five of these? Two phones. I understand. Two phones, two phones I get. Yeah, two phones. I was a corporate guy for 20 years, yeah. But that many different at Yahoo. Come on, man. Yeah. Well here, I'll kind of show you what I'm getting at. Yes, absolutely. So here's kind of the information that was put together on your phone from, and here's our times. So outgoing call in 24. That's what time you made the 911 call. So, and that's all fine in Dandy, you know. But leading up to that, at 1020, you unlocked your phone, signed into your Yahoo mail account. Also then it, and then signed out. 102049, you were on the Dakota Free Press site. These are all on your work phone. A minute later, you were on the Real Clear Politics website. Okay. And then about a minute later, this article was pulled up through the, just the news, which could have been something that you were on this and it had a link to quit to get you to this one. Regarding this, it's an article about Joe Biden in something with China. So you were on that up to about, we're gonna ask to me probably a minute before the accident. Okay. You were on that. Do you remember any of these? Well, I remember looking at them, that's when I set my phone down, prior to, yeah. Well, the thing that's interesting for me is Chase, you're dead on everything that he came in, he came in too big, instead of coming in with no story, he came in with his mantra and now his mantra is starting to get ugly. Oh no, I didn't touch my phone. Oh yeah, I did touch my phone, but only, and it'll progressively get worse. That's why the guy's in a bind and why he's been...  Been saying it the whole time.  Oh yeah, this is a beautiful one coming, yeah. I like being back in our wheelhouse, man, I like this. Yeah, me too, I do too. One of those cases is, we have a job, right? Absolutely. People make mistakes. Right. And we're thinking you made one. I don't remember being on my phone, I set it down, I shut the radio off and I looked at the, I looked at the speedometer is the best I remember. Yeah. But I don't, that's why I was, wondering how fast does that transmit, that you need to do that, that you set it down.  But it shows you unlocked it in such, so it's a tough position, we know. But it's like, it sure appears to be a problem here. And we want to get ahead of it. Right. Just like you do. Right. I get it, I know what kind of position you're in, it's tough. But these don't disappear too. Right, I understand. I mean, you, I mean, I looked at the technology is, but I did, I remember I sat it down, because I was getting rid of distractions, because I wanted to think about these cases. But, you know, shut it down there. And it could have been just at that moment. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a great one, because we're seeing that shift. Mark, where you're talking about them affecting his mind, really what you need is somebody to be there, to be your tour guide, to get your thinking brain back engaged, and his isn't. Right now, he's going out of the neocortex and going deeper into his brain. He's almost locked down at this point. He's locked in and he's feeling the heat. And then his rescue comes, or so he thinks, because when that guy, the second guy asks the question, his face shows relief. He turns and makes good contact. But when he does it, he gives us a lot of information when you think about flight, flight, you know, there's a long list now, flight, flight, font and freeze, friend. There's probably another one coming.  And we see it, he's jerky. He's got an increased cadence as he turns to face this guy and his voice is raising higher into his throat. And he's starting that kinda, not necessarily front of the mouth, but there's all of that talk. And then when he's saying yes, his head shake is so rapid, it looks unnatural.  And then he goes, I don't remember when he asked him a hard question. And what he's doing there is when the guy starts to poke on him, let me back up a second.  That reactive brain will do what it does best in some cases it's friendly, some cases it's freeze, some cases it's run, some cases it's fight. In his case, we don't know exactly which, but it's probably not fight. It's probably going to be more logical trying to think his way through it. And it just doesn't work because your thinking brain is turning off as a result of that. That's why all that matters. There's that forward foot action again, boom, boom, both of his feet come down. Every time I see that, I know something's up. Then he tries a rational approach. Once a guy gives him a breather and he starts saying, well, you know, science maybe doesn't work. Well, yes, science does work that way. It's instant. It's not going that way. And then he realizes this guy is not his friend. So he goes back to rationalizing. He does something I would call holy ground as he tries to say, look, I was working on cases. Something more important than what I was thinking about. So I wouldn't have been handling this. But in the process, he gives him another piece of information. Yes, I was looking at the phone, but I put it down. Well, now he's mantra point number one is gone. So now he's going to start to crumble and fall apart. Chase, what do you got? He's saying the interrogator or interviewers saying people make mistakes. This is amazingly perfect textbook pre-denial behavior. Hands coming together, head shaking, lip compression. That's perfect pre-denial behavior. The only thing that could have been better is if he kind of held up a finger like this, like he wanted to talk and then was shaking his head. This is pre-denial behavior. But notice now, when he's talking about the speedometer, it's even lower. It's even lower now. It's basically where his knees are in the car. It's the lowest speedometer ever. And the interrogator says, you know, it's a tough position. He sits back, but his shoulders come back up to ear level and shoulders come up during periods of fear. They, you know, we shrug sometimes to apologize, but if you watch somebody get scared, the shoulders will kind of go up and stay up. And that's a fear response. But the mouth covering head shaking, incredible. I think it's pre-denial and it's pre-confession behavior depending on who you're speaking to. You can see that in both. And when he says, I remember I set it down, he's still narrating exactly where probably like a cup holder or something like that where he'd stick that phone into. He's still narrating. But now memory comes to light as his main pre-interview planning technique. Memory is the key. Memory is the key for him. I remember, I don't remember. So when he defaults to talking about something that's deceptive, he's more likely to use memory because he's chosen, probably subconsciously, that memory will be the point that I'm gonna either live or die on this hill. So this happens in suspect psychology before, a lot of it's unconscious. But when he gets in there, his brain has a little pattern that's subconsciously been developed, says memory is the way out. So you'll even hear him in a few minutes talking about memory when he's talking about factual things but he'll use memory to talk about those factual things. But I think the interviewer should now direct questions to memory to start taking, like Greg said, little tiny bites out of that process from the beginning because you want that to be weak once you get towards the end because that's the leg that he's choosing to stand on. Mark? Yeah, I think he gets very, very close to admitting something. We see his hand come across to cover up the potential disclosure that may well happen. But then I think he decides not to because back he goes to the bracing here and he tries looking for some new strategies around this. And I think he finds one because I think this is the first time we hear him talk about a kind of as the pressure mounts and we get that stamp. I think we see him come up with a new idea which is I was actually getting rid of distractions. And so from now on that's gonna be his tack is actually by, yes, he was involved in some stuff but actually he was in the process of moving away from that so he could do the right thing. He was always moving towards the right thing. I think the interviewer picks up on this and starts the process of compressing time on him. And this is gonna happen over the next few videos. The time compresses and compresses and compresses so that getting rid of distractions and being distracted happen at the same time at the same time as hitting somebody. They're gonna compress time on him so that the narrative becomes him distracted and hitting somebody, I believe. But anyway, great to see him almost, almost probably confessing to something, deciding he's probably got it, he's got an idea, getting through a bunch of other ideas and going, okay, here's the one I'm gonna go for now. Let's see how it plays out for him. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right, I'm so glad we're back in this world of this. So this is where he confronts him with that we know, you know, we're nailing here, man, something's up. Here it comes, here it comes. So when he starts, obviously he starts getting quiet when he confronts him, he starts shutting down a little bit and gets a little bit quiet. What he's trying to do is, as he answers the questions, these qualifiers he's adding, that's some of the longest ones I've ever heard in my life. Usually it's a couple of little words here. We didn't do that, anyway, because we didn't have enough time and they'll add smalls. This guy, there's so long and there's so many of them. If every one of these qualifiers was a house, he could have his own town of qualifiers and he'd be the mayor of Qualifier Town. That's, it's unbelievable how many of them there are. And when he says, we wanna get ahead of it just like you do. And I get it, it's tough, man, at that point, how many times you've been in there and gone there and just said that and you're waiting, just for, and we'll see in a couple of minutes how he waits a little bit too long and realizes he can go back in and start this same thing again and gets the interrogator and gets loud and almost jumps on him because he's so excited about it, he can hardly stand it. But when he gets, at that point, he gets back to adapting. That's when he starts adapting.  When they start rationalizing like that, when he's getting rationalized with him, he's agreeing to these things. Like Greg was talking about earlier, just a little bit at a time and you just start putting little piles that over there and it builds this big old wall, big old pile of stuff and then he can't jump over that at that point, he can't get past it. So I think the memory thing that keeps coming up, Chase, I think that's from an attorney that said, listen, man, you have to say memory. You have to say, I don't remember. I don't, that's why I think that because in a little while, he's gonna ask him a question, he's gonna go and he's gonna refer to an attorney in his answer to that question. You know what I'm talking about. So that's why I think it was an attorney.  And so here we are. Here he is, he's getting, he's already getting the, you know, you've made a mistake, man, and he's agreeing with him. So, all right, we're good. One of those days, we have a job, right? Absolutely. People make mistakes. Right. And we're thinking you made one. I don't remember being on my phone when I set it down. I shut the radio off and I looked at the, I looked at the speedometer is the best I remember. Yeah.   But it shows you unlocked it and such. So, you know, it's, it's a tough position. We know, we know. But it's like, it's, sure appears to be a problem here. And we want to get ahead of it. Right. Just like you do. Right. I get it. I know what kind of position you're in, it's, it's tough. But these don't disappear, too. Right, I understand.  But I didn't, I remember I sat it down because I was getting rid of distractions because I wanted to think about these cases that, you know, shut it down there. And it could have been just at that moment. I think mayor of qualifier town is a potential t-shirt. I think it is. We should have mayor of qualifier town. And probably the only job he's going to be able to get very soon. And it could have been just at that moment. But you, you know, right? You know the speed of technology today.  And it's like the speed of technology is amazing. And I was not looking at it when it happened. I wouldn't say that I was.  So is it maybe when all that was going on that the impact happened? Well, I mean, that's, that's the best message that I can remember. But, you know, and it could be instantaneous. Right. We get that right. We get that. I mean, that's, it could be instantaneous. And like you said the last time. Right. Wham, there it is. And as you're putting it down, it could be wham, there it is. Well, I, I sat it down. I remember sitting down.  I mean, it was the best I remember. And then wham. Was not looking at my phone. I know it's a little off. And I, I was not looking at it at the time it happened. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So that, yeah, they're crushing time on him. They're just pushing it and pushing and pushing it. So these events will become simultaneous on him. I would say, and Greg, my hope is is you'll talk a little bit more about, about that. Look, he's completely lost buoyancy. Now the shoulders are down, the chest is down, the breathing is down. He is deflated. And I would say he's, he's beaten right now. I want you to go back and look at the videos earlier because he was way more buoyant. Even when he was braced for that fairground ride of death, he was more upbeat. He was more optimistic. I think he's totally defeated at this point. And, and he's starting to dissemble mentally. You're going to start to see this little head movement that's, that we're going to see build and build and build as it goes up, this little kind of shaking head that goes on. And, and as he starts to create sentences that aren't kind of quite there and really him talking to himself in many ways, do you get the sense that he's almost entering his own world? So he's almost starting to detach from what's having happening around him. Now, I think in the next few videos, he kind of brings himself out a little bit from that, but he started down quite a, quite a tunnel here. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah. So Mark, I loved in the last thing, you were talking about them compressing time and you showed it again, because this is a beautiful example of someone eliminating the world, except for the moment this thing, whole thing occurred. So now what it allows him to do is to say, yeah, at that moment, I didn't have the phone in my hand, but I might have had it earlier. So this is another incremental opportunity. The really interesting piece is what they do is they blot out all other moments so that all he says is that the time this happened, I didn't have that phone in my hand. That's a beautiful piece of interrogation and he does it through a couple of things. So we talk about interrogation. There are things called approaches we use and those are psychological ploys and how we get a person to start to talk. What he's using is we know all and futility. Look, we know that you had this phone in your hand. We could see that instantaneous signal and why are you wasting our time? A little bit more nuanced than that, but those are the two tools he's using in orchestration. Those are beautiful. And Mark, I agree, you see he's shrinking. He's becoming a little turtle, getting to be smaller and smaller. He pulls up his mantra. The other interesting thing is if I had the phone in my hand up until I hit him and I didn't have it when I hit him, that might come up in a minute if we find out that you should have known there was a man that you hit because you were looking. Well, if you had the phone in your hand, you might not have noticed, but if you'd just put the phone down, now I've got something else to use against you. So I think we're getting to that. Then he goes back to that mantra and he tries, but he can't even get the whole mantra out. It's starting to fall apart. Instead of saying, I put the phone down, I turned down the radio and I looked at the speedometer, there's pieces of it missing and they're coming out of order. So you can tell that his thinking brain is not working. He's responding, he's dealing with what they're doing. Then this guy does, my other thing is he said, I won't say that. Didn't say, I didn't do it, says I won't say that. So he's saying, I'm not gonna confess to this, I'm not going to admit. And then the guy, then he does this weird thing where he says to, that's the best message I can remember, boom. That's a weird sentence, probably back to what you said, Chase. Earlier, brilliant, this whole memory thing. Memory is his defense and there he goes. And then this guy does something that I didn't expect him to do. He throws out a word to him when he says instantaneous and then the guy goes right. He feels like he's throwing him a bone and he runs with it and then he does a lip compression. They got this guy on the ropes and I've heard that this video has been forced to be taken down by the state of South Dakota, but it's still out there all over the internet. It's still at USA Today and all over the place. So there you go. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you on that. I won't say that I was, nope. And he says, nope. I think that was some advice he probably got from somebody. Do not say that you were doing X, Y, and Z. As we see right after that fear, we see fidgeting and we see bodily artery protection. And the speedometer is even lower now. The speedometer is lowering even more, but his head shaking, his head shaking, his head no, is at an all time high in this. And this behavior is super common when a denial is ready and when a story is prepared and that story includes denials. So a lot of people don't include the denials in a lot of their stories. They'll plan out where they were. Here's the alibi, here's what I was doing. They don't plan them out. I think denials were included in this. So asking him, if you're seeing somebody start doing this, normally in a conversation, ask them a few questions about the make and model of the car to get them nodding again and then start pressing again.  But this looking at the phone part seems to be the main theme of this entire story. I wasn't looking at the phone, which might make you look even more guilty if you were a person in this situation. But this tells us two things. Either one, he's ensuring the distracted driving law isn't violated. He didn't violate some distraction driving law or two, he thinks his story is about the rest of the crime is rock solid. He has to think, if he's hinging everything on the phone, he must assume at this point, the rest of the story is rock solid and he's protected on everything else except for which law it is and whether or not he was looking at his phone, which these interrogators are about to exploit and you're gonna see it. It's all I got. He couldn't remember, could you? I did that last time. All right, Greg, I think what he's talking about when he says that's the best message that I can remember. I think that's because one of his attorneys he talked to he said, dude, here's the message you need to get. That's the message you need to harp on. That's where you need to squat on the message of it. I think he's just repeating stuff. And going back to Mark's point, he's following a part. He started following a part a long time ago, but now we don't see them fall apart on the inside. It's like a Lego thing fall apart on the inside and you're right, Chase. A lot of this stuff is that psychological thing of being pushed as he's pushing toward him and stuff's just squirting out and he's just saying stuff as they're trying to protect himself with his mantra. And this is where they're tightening the noose on him too. So this is what makes it even more exciting from an interrogator's point of view because it's so calm and they're so like, hey man, but that's again, going back to everybody thinks, that everybody thinks you're hollering and there's a bunch of stuff going on, but it's not, it's just really kind of, hey man, you made a mistake, you haven't made a mistake here. I make mistakes all the time. Ah, they're doing such a great job of it. And when he gets cornered, that's when he keeps repeating that same thing over and over again. So here I've got that as one of my notes. I'm trying to cover stuff so you guys didn't cover. But as many times as he says he wasn't on the phone, he's saying I was looking at the phone and then I put it down. So he's already broken the law, but then he says I know the law. After he goes through that whole little song and dance about not doing anything, he says he knows the law, but he's already said he's broken the law. So he's kind of at a, they've got him on this. That's, they've done the job. They're there, they're there. I think they should go in a little bit sooner than they go in. Maybe they're waiting for him to say, okay, I guess they can wait for him to give up. There's not much more he can do. So they got him squished in there, I think. And it could have been just at that moment. But you know the speed of technology today. You're smart, man. Right. And it's like the speed of technology is amazing. And I was not looking at it when it happened. I wouldn't say that I was.  So is it maybe when all that was going on that the impact happened? Well, I mean, that's the best message that I can remember. But, you know, and it could be instantaneous. Right. And we get that. We get that. I mean, that's, it could be instantaneous. And like you said the last time. Right. Wham, there it is. And as you're putting it down, it could be wham, there it is. Well, I set it down. I remember setting it down.  I mean, it's the best I remember. And then wham. I was not looking at my phone. I know it's the law. And I was not looking at it at the time. It happened. No. All right. They're good. Yeah, Scott, one thing I'd point out. Remember, these guys are talking to the attorney general of the state. That's pretty powerful medicine. You know, that's a thing.  So yeah, it's an interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Mark, come on, man. You've got the lead on a big time. He's so, Chase is like nailing this man. I ask you as well, they're trying to go for the bigger crime, because they want hit and run. Yeah, they are. They don't want a thousand dollar fine on using your phone. They want. Right. You saw the guy come through the window.  And you left him. Yeah. That's what I think they're after too much. You didn't check on the guy. It's like, that's a serious crime. But I was not doing it at the time of the impact. I set the phone down. I know I did. Do you remember reading that article at all? No. It's basically about Joe Biden. I looked at it as well. Okay. Because when we get these, right, Jason, we can go look at what you're looking at. And it's about some conspiracy with Joe Biden in China. I didn't read the article. I guess I would say I glance at headlines a lot. Sure. I don't read articles when I'm driving. I don't probably have an intriguing headline. I mean, I would guess. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is powerful. Remember, we're talking about incremental confession. He just said, look, I look at headlines, but I don't read the articles. Doesn't matter. You have your phone in your hand. When you're looking at headlines and you have an impact, it's distracted driving. And that's what they're getting him to. They're getting to that point where he's saying it. What's interesting, we see mouth grooming now. So we know the stress level is built up. We see him raking his tongue around inside his mouth, either to wet his mouth or to pull up, built up protein and all of that. He realizes now he has no friends. Both of these guys are against him and you can't miss it. And he actually says, I don't read the articles when driving. I glance at the headlines. While he started off saying he put the phone down, that was the beginning of it. And he can't fight text. So then he's saying he's emphatic. It was not there at the time of the impact. These guys do a great job, a beautiful job of conditioning him to admit incremental guilt by using leading questions. When you want information, leading questions are useless. If I say to Scott, Scott, will you do this? He's gonna say yes, because I'm asking him a question and giving him an answer. So if I'm after information, I wouldn't get it. But if I want to give you an out and I say you don't know this, do you chase? He's gonna go, of course not. It gives him a feeling that he is off the hook and it gives us a chance to go after it. Scott, what do you got? All right, this is what I'm always talking about. A great example of it where the illustrators don't land where the words are that they're emphasizing. They're out of sync with the words. So this is the, when you watch this again, watch that arm, they're not there, not even close to there. So that lets you know there's an issue there. Obviously there is, I think we all know what it is. But that's what I'm talking about. And when you see that, it doesn't mean he's lying or telling the truth, but what we're looking for is not just that, but all the other things going along and going on around that situation. And the things that take that into context of what's happening in real time. So all this little, being really stiff and that shoulder's going up and him bouncing around like a boxer and like he's on a spring or something. That, as his head is staying still and his body's moving around, along with these illustrators not working, that's what I'm talking about. You look at things some people call them clusters, some people call them groups. So you don't look at, not just one or two, or you get three or four, if you get five or six stacked up there, then you can start making the decision that this is most likely deceptive or it is most likely the truth when you start seeing those. But the biggest thing for me here is that those illustrators are not landing when they should land, they're not in sync. Chase, what do you got? My first note here is that the elbows come in right after these thigh slaps. And I was talking about this gesture mismatch and this timing weird, but when he says the words, the time of impact, the elbows do an inward retreat toward the body. We have an artery right under here under the bicep called the break heel. And we just, we pull that into the body when we're scared. And he said, I set that phone down. So now it's not my phone. It was my phone a few minutes ago and now it's that phone. So now there's some dissociative language associated with the phone. I set that phone down, I know I did. And right after he said, I know I did, there's fidgeting, shrinking body, shoulder shrugs and digital flexion, exactly what Scott's talking about. Now we're seeing this big mountain of stuff going on. And watch those elbows for the rest of these when you're going through these videos, when do those elbows come in to protect the body? Cause they're gonna be very important to clip this coming up in just a second. And the investigator says, we can go back and see what you're looking at. We see for the first time, I think, he begins this lip grooming gesture. So you see this pulling the lips in, kind of biting them, chewing on them. This is another processing behavior. And again, when he says, I don't read the articles when I'm driving, the elbows move in again. So they move out and they move right in again to protect the body. But this time, right when he says, I don't read the article when I'm driving, they do it just like the sumo feet. The elbows come in one at a time to protect his body. One, two, which I think is interesting thing. It's the same thing. It's all I got, Mark? Yeah, so just to, you know, put maybe some sprinkles upon the icing on the cake of what everybody's talking about here. Yeah, those slaps are totally in the wrong place for the emphasis. So if you don't see what Scott's talking about, you can hear it later on when those slaps are totally out of sync. They are incongruent. I think potentially those slaps are more about seeing the interrogators off the territory. They might be about making a bit unconsciously making a big enough noise to kind of shoo them away potentially. Chase, those elbows coming in in a later video, I think I know the one you're talking about and I think I picked up in on it as well. And I think you're right. I think it's really key. So I'm looking forward to seeing whether we both got that same moment there. I like the mirroring rapport when he repeats China, you know, and just relaxes a little bit because maybe we're gonna get into a bit of a political conversation about Biden and maybe I'll find some friends around that, you know and it just doesn't happen for him. And Chase, when you're talking about, I don't read articles when I'm driving and he pulls in, okay? If that's not enough for you, just watch how he just does one stroke of his thumb on that. Does a self soothe on that that we've seen before. Now, you might go, whoa, hang on.  No, not at all. There's all kinds of reasons why people stroke their thumb. I just want you to go back on every other video and notice he doesn't do that apart from a few little places where he's under extreme pressure. So my guess is in a situation like this, if somebody was stroking their thumb like that and they're saying, I don't read articles when I'm driving, I would gamble a lot of money that they do read the whole article when they're driving, not just the headlines. And I make that gamble based on a whole bunch of clusters and this one showing up alongside that at that very moment. But that's if that would be in a different situation than the one we're talking about here, obviously. I'm done. But I was not doing it at the time of the impact. I set that bone down. I know I did. Do you remember reading that article at all? No. It's basically about Joe Biden. I looked at it as well, okay? Because when we get these, right, Jason? We can go look at what you're looking at. Right, right, right. And it's about some conspiracy with Joe Biden in China. I didn't read the article. I guess I would say I glance at headlines a lot. Sure, I don't read articles when I'm driving. It doesn't probably have an intriguing headline. I mean, I would guess. Did you get a new mic, Mark? No. Why does it sound good or bad? It sounds really good today. Is it mean or do you didn't get anything new? I don't think I've done anything. Maybe I'm just a bit off. Mark, that you had told us in our last interview where it was, I didn't see what I hit until the impact. Mm-hmm. Well, I never, that's your quote. Okay. In light of that, that would make sense. That right there would make sense.   It's like I just hit something. Again, does that, you know what's logical?  And then to the speedometer is what I believe happened. Chase, what do you got? Right when the investigator is saying, in our last interview, there's immediate upward glance, which I term threat checking. So he's looking to make sure this is an important thing I need to lock onto this target. And right when he says the words until the impact, when he's reading back his own words to him, his legs swing over a point of certain direction. I've never been in that room, but I guarantee you that's where the exit is. Yeah. And he redirects the entire subject of the conversation. The whole thing, back to this pre-event story that he has memorized. And I think that he feels entitled to do this partly because of his status as the attorney general. He ignores the entire question about seeing what he hit completely, just ignores it. And it's important to note, anytime you're listening to any of these, anything like this, what part of the story is skipped over, concealed, avoided or repelled by the subject. And this person feels like I think that he has a little more entitlement to do that. Scott? All right. I think it looks like, from the Simpson, he looks like Homer Simpson. You all seen the meme where he like scoots back into that bush. That's what he looks like. He's getting ready to do into that wall. That's how hard he's pressing. When somebody mimics something that happened without speaking like that, I've seen that before. And the person is freaking out in here. They are, they want to communicate that so bad, but at the same time they're up here, they're engaged in something huge up here, but they're going forward with what happened. And I think he thinks he was talking at that point. I really do think so. I think he thought he was talking as he was doing this really weird little thing. Now we all have, but watching this, there's a thing called the 738-55 rule of communication. That's the first thing that makes me puke when I hear it. So if I ever need EpiCack or something, the doctor will come in and go, remember the 738-55 rule of communication because it's not true, it's a big myth, and we still hear people use it that are experts, and it says this. It says, communication is 7% the words we use, 38% the tone of voice we use, and 55% is body language. It's like, so that means 90, what, 3% of communication is body language without using words. Well, we know that's not true, but if it were true, it would look like what that guy was just doing. It looked like charades. That's a, you wouldn't have, he could go to any country and talk to anybody just goofing around and doing those things. So when you hear the 738-55 rule, it's not true, and that's a good example of how you know it's not true. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, really loud, deflated outbreath at the start. So more kind of demonstration there of how pessimistic I think he's getting about what's happening here. However, he then becomes buoyant again as he starts going through this mime of exactly what happened. He puts it down, he switches off the radio, he looks at the speedometer, which is a great little kind of sequence that he's doing there. And what I like about this is he's trying to help us understand that there are two degrees of separation between what he's being kind of questioned around, which is he was on the phone at the time when he hit something. No, he wasn't because there was that, and then that, and then that. And he's very demonstrative about that. So I think at this point, he's become a little bit more buoyant because he's gone, this is my tactic now, this is where I'm going. I'm gonna play this idea of two degrees of separation from the incident which I'm being questioned on. So nice, nice try. Let's see how it goes for him. Chase, what do you got on this one? I already got it, but did you guys notice how Mark was mimicking a left right-hand drive vehicle? Yeah. That's fine. I don't even drive. There you go. Who got it? Is it Greg? Yeah, where you going? Yeah, so I love a few things that are going on here. I agree with all of you. I think there's a whole bunch of this role of communication that he's trying to do what he thinks he's supposed to do. Have you ever seen the movie European Vacation with Chevy Chase when he's driving around the traffic circle and he's going, look kids, big bin, parliament. And about the night time he's going, parliament, big bin. That's kind of what we're seeing here. He's trying to stick to his mantra, but he's like this, he's so confused that his neocortex is going shrinking down and his little cat brain, somebody who'll be offended, starts to try to rise up and try to take control and do what his mantra is. Here's a great example of what Chase was talking about in the last video. If you're going to protest your innocence, don't put your elbows to your side. Raise your arms away from your side. Politicians make that mistake all the time. When your elbows go to your side, it's to create some kind of exoskeleton to protect your internal organs out of fear. And we all know that people do it, but you'll see it when they're doing it. He protest his guilt. I love when he starts off by saying you didn't know what you hit until you saw it. And he starts to go, well, no, I didn't say.  Oh, he just kind of melts and falls into a heap when he says that. And it's awful to watch. It's funny to us because we're body language people. It is awful to watch because here's a man that has just been confronted with his own words. And that's what happens. Here's another interesting thing for you. When people are in a very harsh environment, something horrible happening, they're not going to remember the details. It just doesn't happen. Yesterday, two days ago, I was in Manhattan and there was a shooter on the subway. They said the guy was five foot five. Go look at pictures of this guy. He's not five foot five. Our brains fill in the blanks. It's what we do when we're in that kind of situation because our brain is not working. His respirations up and he's now gone from what happened to what I believe happened. No longer is he doing what he remembers. He's now using a word like believe. I taught construction for a lot of years and I used to tell my construction managers, believe, hope, feel, those are church words, not fact words. Use fact words when you're in a bind and you'll be in a better place. But it's a way that you do non-committal answers and the way you get away from it. It's all I got. Part that you had told us in our last interview where it was, I didn't see what I hid until the impact. Mm-hmm. Well, I never, I never saw, that's your quote. Okay. So in the light of that, that would make sense. That right there would make sense.  It's like I just hid something. Again. Logical?  And then to the speedometer is what I believe happened. I would just like to apologize to all cats on behalf of Greg. Yeah, Greg, as far as... As offended by that. That old cat thing, let's go ahead and kill the cat. I'm gonna randomly pick animal words now. So now you're in chicken brain. Yeah, yeah. I apologize in advance to all chickens for Greg's behavior. Good try, Scott. Yeah, it's still not, still not good enough. Guy's trying so hard. That was a good one. I thought that was a good one. It was a brilliant one. Frankly, it was the best you've done. Well, as he was writing it out and he says, hell, nobody's got the right one. Usually I got about five of them in the car. He said some of that fact. Sure. And that was the, that was on the visor. The other was in the glove box. The glove box, yes. Did you have to take things out of the glass? I had to move stuff around. Yes, okay. Yes. Did you notice anything on the passenger side while you were doing that? Just glass. I mean, I was staying away from the glass, I guess. Spent a lot of time. So when you're doing that, are you leaning over the console? Yes, from the driver's door. Leaning over. Yes, okay. So you can kind of see in the glove box which is already popped open. It's already popped open, yes. Okay. Yes. Did you see the glasses right next to that? I did not. Okay. You showed me the glasses the first time. That's the first time there are Joe's glasses. I'm wondering, I weren't, I'm wondering about that. So that means this phase came through your windshield. It's a tough thing. Ugh. Did not come through because it would have been, I thought there'd been blood everywhere then. Now, you know, I thought about it.  His glasses are right there. Jason, those are Joe's. I did not see the glass until you showed me. Sure. So the only way for them to get there is through the windshield. At the impact, did you look over and see anything? I did not see anything. I mean, just it was, again, I then was looking to get to the side. I did not see anything. No. Absolutely. And it shattered. And I probably cringed or something, but I was just trying to get it to the side. I did not see him. I did not know. There was a human until the next day. Okay. So when the glasses are, so when the glasses are in there, his lenses, then we have a witness. We've talked to witnesses that actually had seen him out there as well. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, heavy repetitious breathing that. I think some of it sounds to me around stress and some of it sounds to me a little bit, oh, Suzanne. And panelists out there will know the kind of breathing and sighing that I'm talking about there. So there's some similarities there. Moving from side to side in the chair, Greg, you talk about chained elephant. This chained elephant is sitting right now. I don't think I've ever seen, you got that one, lovely, lovely. Sorry to grab that one from you, but it just came so to mind when I saw that because I don't think I've seen it in any of the videos that we've watched. I don't think I've seen it sitting before. I mean, we've seen people squirm around, but I don't think we've quite seen that sway of chained elephant. So that was extraordinary to see. And for anybody that hasn't come across that term before, again, that is often a display of stress. It's a way of working off that stress and also repetitive movement, which is self soothing and some kind of control of your own body be it unconscious. Absolutely not stamp of the foot on that. So again, within that cluster, when we hear that word, absolutely not. And non-contractions, that can be a signal. And the stamp of the foot, I believe, though we've seen stamps, heard stamps at other points, I think that's territorial. I think he's trying to stamp people out of his territory on that. And then the final bit of icing on the cake here, I did not know there was a human until the next day. That for me would be distancing from the situation. He, I think, knows the name of the person. The person has been named even Mr. Whoever would be a little less distance from a human. So look, in situations like this one, I would be very skeptical of the veracity of what's being talked about here. I would be very skeptical that we are being truthful here and a little more deceptive. But that's just my opinion. Chase, what do you got on this one? Couldn't agree more. I think this is one of the first times we're seeing some of these non-contractions. And to explain that, this particular human being likes to use contractions in his speech. His speeches when he was on the campaign trail, he's had done three or four TV interviews that I could find. He uses contractions all the time. So this is the first time we're really hearing a strong non-contraction. And a contraction means like when we say shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't, won't, all of those words, those are contracted two words. So he says, did not instead of didn't. And so we're here that, which is a deviation from his baseline. Remember, we're change detection more than we are deception detection. In my opinion, y'all might disagree. But this big false exhale, I think there's no time to digest information.  He carries a lot of status as the attorney general for the state there. And I was thinking his face did not come through more non-contractions. Then he says, I did not see the glasses. I did not see anything again. I did not see anything. He's unwilling to use Joe's name here. The victim's name is Joe. And he's saying, I did not see him again. And then he finally says, I did not know there was a human. And I think that's interesting use of words there. It's dissociative from the victim, is dissociative from the crime, and it's dissociative from the effect of the crime of what happened afterwards. So in a situation like this, I would say this is a gigantic red flag. And I would say this is extremely likely to be deceptive, Greg. Yeah, I'm just gonna do a couple of things. And I agree with you guys 100%. I love all the contraction pieces that he missed because he said won't in the last thing, which is an odd kind of a contraction that a lot of people would not use when they're educated. And so will not versus won't, a lot of people will skip and he used that one. So it does make you think that. Also, love, Mark, I'm on the same page. We don't see many people chained elephant in their chair. The two big things I want you to pay attention to is there would have been blood. Now after I have thought about it, there would have been blood. Funny, that is something he did not need to tell us. He could have just said, I would have thought there would have been blood. That would be it. But for some reason he feels the need to go back and clear up the record and say, I didn't think about that that night. I've thought about it after having time. So that's a red flag for me because it's not anywhere else in what we've heard from him, he's not explaining. And there's a second red flag. When they go back and they ask him the question, that impact, did you forget what comes after that? Immediately he goes back to editing and over answering. Those two things make me go, right here's the crux of the matter. Right here I want to crawl all over him.  Remember, boom, boom, boom. There's some deviations, a lot of them right here. Now we're going to talk about that. And then we get to the crux of the matter and we get to the minor deviation. We'll tear it open again. That's how you get people to confess. That's how you tear stories apart. This is a really good example of that. We see a lot of deviation in this space. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. And you guys have covered just about everything. But from my point of view, what we're seeing is he's carrying a tremendous load of stress, a whole lot of stress at this point. And he's panicking. So he's got the stress of what's happening. He's panicking and then he tries to fake, be sad. He tries to, he tries this fake sadness, grief kind of thing. And it takes a little bit too long. And when he starts talking again, he's talking to normal volume. And if it really did make him feel that way, even from here, we could have seen some grief on his face. I didn't see a squad on there. He may have tried to look sad, but I think it was trying to look sad. So I think the whole thing at this point, that's the first time we hear him breathing real heavy. It's the first time we hear a lot of things. Y'all have covered most everything, but that's the way it looks to me. And he's using, we'll go to fading facts at this point. So when he starts talking about what happened, it starts getting quieter and quieter and quieter towards the end of it. When someone's not being honest quite often, not all the time, because normal people will do it too, but it's one of these little things you put near this guy might be lying pile, is when you hear fading facts. If someone's telling you something's supposed to be a fact, as it starts getting quieter toward the end, noticeably quieter. You can say, oh, that's their brain trying to separate them from it. That's the thought behind that. But that's one of those little things you put in the pile. So can you put the pile and say that might be deceptive? Then you take a look at how many you have at that point. Well, as he was writing it out and he says, hell, nobody's got the right one. Usually they got about five of them in the car. He said some of that fact. Sure. And that was the, that was on the visor. The other was in the glove box. The glove box, yes. Did you have to take things out of the box? Yes, I had to move stuff around. Yes. Okay. Yes. Did you notice anything on the passenger side while you were doing that? Just glass. I mean, I was staying away from the glass, I guess. Good. I mean, I didn't spend a lot of time. So when you're doing that, are you leaning over the console? Yes, from the driver's door. Leaning over. Yes, okay. So you can kind of see in the glove box. Right. Which is already popped open. It's already popped open, yes. Okay. So did you see the glasses right next to that? I did not. Okay. You showed me the glasses the first time. The first time, they're Joe's glasses. I'm wondering, I weren't, I'm wondering about that. So that means his face came through your windshield. It's a tough thing. I was thinking that his face did not come through because it would have been, I thought there'd been blood everywhere then. Now, you know, I was like, I thought about it.  Right? His glasses are right there. Jason, those are Joe's. I did not see the glass until you showed me. Sure. So the only way for them to get there is through the windshield. At the impact, did you look over and see anything? I did not see anything. I mean, just, it was, again, I then was looking to get it to the side. I did not see anything. No, absolutely not. And it shattered and I probably cringed or something that I was just trying to get it to the side. I did not see him. I did not know there was a human until the next day. Okay, so when the glasses are, so when the glasses are in there, like his lenses and we have a witness, we've talked to witnesses that actually had seen him out there as well. Okay, we good? Yeah, all right.  Okay. Initially, you were driving down the middle of the road. We know that's not true. You were not had, you were 10 and two driving and you didn't see this guy walking down the middle of the road. We know that's not true. Jason, you're a good guy. You're not used to being in this pickle. I am a good guy. Yeah, I agree. I agree. You're not used to this. We're used to people that are used to being in that scene. Right, I understand that. I mean, I understand. So that's why we're... And I know you understand the process. I'm not second guessing that at all. What I'm saying is, if you look at it from our perspective. Oh, I get it. Things haven't been straightforward by any means.    I'm saying there's some mistakes made here, though. You would have to agree with that. I don't know what I'd have done differently. I did not. I believed I was in the road and I believe I set my phone down, shut the radio off and was looking to put the cruise control on. And I didn't find him. I did not find him until the next day. Okay, I'll go first on this one. Right here, we just got the giggles before this because he does everything. He does accommodation. He does two of the biggest showstoppers we've seen the last 50 years. He does Nixon, Bill Clinton. He does the whole, I am not a liar, that, which was Nixon's thing, but he doesn't like Clinton. So that's beautiful. It was really, really good. Two big star moves there for him, two pro moves. And he couldn't be any more backed into that corner than he is. There's no possible way he could do that. I mean, I'm sure there's some way, from a physics standpoint, you can make it look like he's squished in there, but you couldn't get a push past that without actually becoming part of the wall himself. He's got his arms crossed, his barriers, he's doing everything we expect him to do in this situation. His head's down. He's still trying to back up, still trying to get out of there. Then when he goes in, when the interrogator goes into the part about, you're a good guy, you're not bad, you just had bad luck, that's all. Man, that's when, and he's there. This reminds me, we were in the green room at Dr. Phil and we were watching him talk to that person on the show and we were all screaming, you got him, you got him, go.  Oh man, so this guy's so close, he's got him right there.  That's when you see that combination of Nixon and Bill Clinton. Classic, it's just beautiful. And I know everybody on here is gonna say something about it, but I wanted to get in there first. And at the same time, it's like Clinton because his illustrators do not match up with what he's saying. You can hear it and see it at this point, so make sure you don't have to watch closely. Just buzz by it and you'll see it. That's where I'll leave it there, because I stole the big one. All right, Chase, what do you got? Are you just selling it? Look at him.  Wow, wow. That was only the headlines. Chase, only the headlines. Wow, that was great, man. That was great. Did you see him in there? He was just like, yeah, I don't know. Oh, yeah, that was awesome. That was good, man. Hey, that was beautiful. Dub that back, Scott, with like some kind of Japanese anime over the top of it. That would be funny as hell. All right, Chase, what do you got? He knew I knew, I knew. He knew I knew, and he knew I knew, he knew I knew. He knew I knew, I knew, he knew I knew. I knew, he knew I knew, he knew I knew. He knew I knew, he knew I knew, I knew. All right, go ahead. I think this postural retreat you see into the corner is him finally realizing that his status as Attorney General is being taken away. And this is the moment as an interrogator that you show documents again. You show something, get the arms uncross, get them leaning forward and back into nonverbally participating in the conversation. But this is fantastic interrogation technique here. Specifically, if you want to look this up, it's the read technique. He's using something called socializing and comforting and maybe minimizing.  And I want you to listen to this a couple of times when you're looking at it. When he's saying, I was gonna put on the cruise control and I did not find him. I want you just to think what would have to be known in that moment to use the words, I didn't find him.  And I think it's a little scary that I think this is unconsciously saying a partial truth in here. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, only icing on all of those cakes so far. He is so far up that corner. The only thing that could happen would be the wall would turn into blemange and completely encompassed. Blemange, by the way, all the British people will know what I'm talking about with blemange. The Americans, it's a bit like custard. But fancier, kind of French. So yeah, he just wants to melt into that wall. Let me tell you what happens here in terms of the incongruence between his gestures because you can hear them and the slaps that he's making and what he's saying. I am not a liar, I. I mean, if he was a drummer, he would be fired because it's nothing is where it should be. None of the emphasis is in the right place. It's got its fading facts at the end. It's not even fading facts. It's just he doesn't even complete. Doesn't even complete the sentence but puts a slap at the end. It is incongruent batten gestures. There's nothing in this that points towards honesty in any way for me here, in my opinion. Greg, what do you think? Yeah, you guys have all pointed out almost everything. I mean, I'll add a couple of little nuances to this. When our brain stops working, when we get to such high duress, we're looking for familiar, that's the reason we do all the adapting. When we adapt, it's a way to make the unfamiliar familiar. So if I always pick my nails, it makes me more comfortable in the bad situation. When I hear a word that makes me feel good, I'm going to jump on it so you hear it. When he goes, you're a good guy, I'm a good guy. But even then he misses a few beats before he says it. I'm a blank, blank, blank. There's deviation. This is the first time we've seen him balled up. We associate this from our high school psychology classes with being closed out. In this case, it is closed out. And he's trying to press himself into the wall. We all know this is pre-confession and he's almost there. When a guy starts to rationalize why it happened, you're getting him there. And when he says, I don't know what I would have done differently. If there's anything that these guys miss, it's that opportunity. Well, how about this? Or just be quiet and let him talk. When you threw him that bone, you're looking for any kind of compliance he's gonna do. He's agreeing with you. You're trying to give him that opportunity. But all of this stuff is happening. All of this misalignment of his body language to his message, because his thinking brain is not working. His reacting brain is working right now. And we need that higher functioning brain to illustrate what we're thinking and to say what we mean. If the brain is running nine cycles before a movement, then you get all that out of time. And his brain is like, pardon the expression, but he's kind of like a squirrel on the road right now. He's running everywhere. He doesn't know what to do. He's just trying to get some kind of relief. That's all I got. I mean, you have to. Oh, I got to give us a little sense on here, Jason. Okay, initially you were driving down the middle of the road. We know that's not true. You were not had, you were 10 and two driving and you didn't see this guy walking down the middle of the road. We know that's not true. Jason, you're a good guy. You're not used to being in this pickle. I am a good guy. Yes, I agree. I agree. You're not used to this. We're used to people that are used to being in that scene. Right, I understand that. I mean, I understand. So that's why we're weird. And I know you understand the process. I'm not second guessing that at all. What I'm saying is, if you look at it from our perspective. Oh, I get it. Things haven't been straightforward by any means.    I'm saying there's some mistakes made here, though. You would have to agree with that. I don't know what I had done differently. I did not. I believed I was in the road. And I believe I set my phone down, shut the radio off, and was looking to put the cruise control on. And I didn't find him. I did not find him until the next day. Oh, Mark, you got Teed's lambasted you on that one, man. On the lean in. You must have worked with the lean in. I completely forgot about it. Thing, that question that I brought up to this group. How many of you went back the next day to see if you're here lovely? I got that, and I didn't go back to look at him because I thought that I'd hit a man. I went back because the debris was still there. What I'm seeing is I asked them, how many of you went back to look at the deer? Right. To find the deer. Right. And none of them did. Most of them probably found the deer or left the scene from there. I mean, I'm bringing it back. And if I wouldn't, you know, I thought I was doing the right thing getting gas to give back to the sheriff. And I said, well, let's look for, you know, the deer.  It just felt like a thunderbolt hit my car, you know. And how did this, where did he go? Maybe he went to the other side. I didn't know. And I was kind of trying to put my mind at ease of how this happened, how did this happen? But I guess to my credit, you know, I'm also like, well, if I didn't find him, how long would he have laid there? And I told the sheriff, the sheriff was surprised. The sheriff saw him in the scene at least twice. And so was the tow truck driver. And none of them thought it was suspicious that it was not a deer. I guess he wasn't there when the tow truck driver was there, though. So I don't know what he saw or didn't see, but he didn't jump up and down and tell the sheriff, hey. Yeah, there was a lot. I mean, the right car was gone. Obviously, you were gone. The tow truck guy is gone. Right. We tracked everybody. Right. And I would think, oh yeah, absolutely. We're not leaving anything uncovered. Well, I get it that I get strict scrutiny of who I am. Well, I think this would happen no matter what. Because I think your guys would be sitting in these chairs of it with somebody else. Ladies and gentlemen, the mayor of Qualifier Town. There he is, the sheriff for long. Long may he reign. Good lord. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look, such a massive change in tone. Go back to video one or two or three or just about anyone. And it's almost not the same person. And that's what we're talking about when we talk about deviations from baseline. When he comes into this interrogation, he's already under stress. Now think about where he is. We're, you know, 11 videos in here. We're more than halfway through potentially this film that we have and an extraordinary change in tone. But now a different change in tack. Where's he gone to now? The, his alarm at the injustice of it. So we get this narrative. Do the right thing. Sheriff, curious to my credit. Sheriff, sheriff, sheriff twice. None of them thought it was suspicious. Strict scrutiny because of who I am. So a whole different idea that he's got of, look, I did the right thing. I was with sheriffs, sheriffs, sheriffs, sheriffs, many, many times. Give me some credit to my credit. Nobody else thought that this was a problem. I think you're picking on me because of the status that I have, shall we say. So yeah, very, very different from what we've had before. Chase, what do you think of the status? Well, his status is changing rapidly. I think there's one thing that really stands out to me here. Well, a couple of things. One staring at the ground is kind of a baseline deception that we're starting to see throughout all of this in places where there's a high likelihood of deception. In our opinion, there's a lot of ground staring. And there's a phrase in here that Mark just touched on, but I want you to listen to the whole phrase. None of them thought it was suspicious that it was not a deer. So what would have to be present? So I think this is another, what they might call in legal terms, a spontaneous utterance or where we accidentally say something that's the truth and it comes out on accident. The rising vocal pitch is present here and we see that as one of the hallmarks of deception, but we only see that as a hallmark when it's different than how they've been speaking before, which is exactly what we're seeing here. I think it's strange how he's trying to frame the interrogator's suspicion in terms of his position and not his actions. And that's the most. That's where his status comes in. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I think he's leaking information in general. When the guy asks a question he's prepared for, he goes, I got that. I think that's not him saying, I got why you believe that. I think that's him saying, I got an answer for you. My answer is, and he is in such panic that this whole bunch of things he put together, his mantra is now coming apart. All these things are no longer there, but the things he has prepared are deep inside his head. And every one of us has been in a situation where we might be brilliant and have quips and all that, but we're under high duress and we managed to look stupid trying to say something brilliant. Well, I think that's what we're seeing here.  It gives him an opportunity because it's not impertinent and he comes back up. If I were the interrogator, when he started talking, I would stare at him because a blank stare is a powerful tool when somebody is running around and panicking. And this guy's in panic. That voice tone we hear is a result of respiration becoming shallow and rapid and drying out the mucus membranes. And so your vocal cords all get higher and pitched and all that. But you also are pushing air past your vocal cords a lot faster than you were before. And then people who are in a telling mode typically are going to be deeper voice and stronger and pushing.  And I think we're seeing a lot of that here. A good example of that in my past life was getting into a situation with a customer who was so angry and so spun up that he couldn't finish the sentence and he was going, and I was able to make him feel a lot better by simply taking him away from other people.  They'll be thankful. It'll help. Scott, what do you got? All right. I agree. He starts sounding like a little kid. He's doing everything. I think he's reverting back to a child at this point. I think we're watching him get younger because everything sounds like a kid from like you were saying, Mark staring down at the ground to his voice being high. All these things and the words he's using in here as well just sound like a kid depending himself. He doesn't know how. I don't, well, maybe he does but he's definitely reverting back to a child the way a child would do it. He starts using his hands and adapter again. Lots of lip compressing, chewing on it, compression, chewing on his mouth, all that going on. All these are just stress cues out the wazoo. All these going through our, you might be full of it, pal, right over here. His voice tone and not only that but his cadence is changing as well. That thing is just like clipping right along. You're a pretty good pace there. However, everything he's saying is really, really clear but his volume's up. It's odd to see in a person but you're right, Greg. When it's in the place it should be it looks and sounds normal which it does here because he's in a lot of trouble. So that's exactly what you would expect to see in here at that point. But these are just, but everything we're seeing just, these are just little things that keep putting up little things in our pile of cues that say he's probably not being honest at this point and there are a lot of them at this point. All right. You know what I would love to do right there? What? Just pull out a hard drive or just pull out some little device and say, you know what, I didn't know this but the Fish and Wildlife Service actually installed cameras six weeks ago. As I'm pulling that thing out, I'm gonna flip and open a laptop and then I would start asking some more questions. Ooh. And my low rent version of that is when he's talking, just go.  Thing that question that I brought up to this group. How many of you went back the next day to look to see if you're here? No, I got that and I will, I didn't go back to look at him because I thought that I'd hit a man. I went back because the debris was still there. What I'm seeing is I asked them, how many of you went back to look at the deer? Right. To find the deer? Right. And none of them did. Well, most of them probably found the deer or left the scene from there. I mean, I'm bringing it back and if I wouldn't, you know, I thought I was doing the right thing, getting gas to give back to the sheriff. And I said, well, let's look for, you know, the deer.  It just felt like a thunderbolt hit my car, you know. And how did this, where did he go? Maybe he went to the other side. I didn't know. And I was kind of trying to put my mind at ease of how did this happen? But I guess to my credit, you know, I'm also like, well, if I didn't find him, how long would he have stayed there? You know, and I told the sheriff, the sheriff was surprised. The sheriff's on the scene at least twice and so was the tow truck driver. And none of them thought it was suspicious that it was not a deer. I guess he wasn't there when the tow truck driver was there, though, so I don't know what he saw or didn't see, but he didn't jump up and down to tell the sheriff, hey. Yeah, there was a lot. I mean, the car was gone. Obviously, you were gone. The tow truck guy is gone. Right. We tracked everybody. I mean, we tracked everybody. I don't think so, yeah, absolutely. We're not leaving anything uncovered. Well, I get it that I get strict scrutiny of who I am. Yeah, well, I think this would happen no matter what. I think your guys would be sitting in these chairs if it was somebody else. You're probably doing that already anyway, Greg. Yeah, I always am. That's why I hit hard, but not to the floor, I would guess. And then I hit a couple times. And I guess I'm wondering if you're feeling the bumps or even the rumbles bars. Because I mean, I heard the rumble bars. Yes, once I started applying the brakes. I don't remember any rumble bars prior to the brakes. You know. Yeah. So prior to stepping on the brakes, you don't remember the rumble bars at all. Not looking over at him, all that I know it's a him or what it was. I was now, I guess I would say I'd describe it as tunnel vision. I mean, I was now trying to just try to get over and stop. I did not look. I did not know it was a man until the next day. So the. Got to go first on this one. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Let's do one more statement analysis here. When he says, I'm not looking over at him. Number one, he's present tense. And he said something about the windshield there. But if it was a hit by the time he applied the brakes, the body would be behind the car, deer, human, whatever. For him to say this means that it was still possible to see the person at this moment. That they could potentially be wedged in the windshield or still visible while applying the brakes. I'm not looking at him. I'm trying to break the car because the crash had already happened or the impact had already happened. I think that's pretty crazy. And he's saying I did not look. And I think this is more accidental language that suggests looking was possible because you're not going to say I didn't look unless looking was something that could be done after breaking and pulling over. There would still be something there to look at. I think that was a little disturbing to see this morning. Again, my opinion. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, so just to add a slight bit of levity to it, this whole knee routine that he does, I haven't seen that dance routine since I was in the West End production of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. I mean, that is a classic of any Western dance routine. Good to see that. It signals one thing to me that he is so close because he is doing behaviors that we have not seen before. He's now just on that brink. If he weren't in an interrogation situation, you would go, this person is on the brink of exhaustion. They're about to collapse. And we do see him sink into that wall. Now, in this interrogation situation, I think we'd all agree that he is close to confessing. That's what the exhaustion can, what we've seen other situations that exhaustion in this situation is he's about to give up potentially. And we see him very expressive, but almost talking to himself. It's almost like you're talking to other people in the room. There's ghosts in the room with you. So his mind is at a whole different level, at this point, I would say. But, you know, he does come back with something quite a good cognitive idea, which is the idea of tunnel vision. It's a nice kind of defense of, look, at this point, you know, my vision was so narrow, I wouldn't be able to see anything. So he's drifting in and out, I think, of the potential to be knocked into confession here in this kind of situation, and still having the availability to come up with actually quite a good idea around his potential innocence around some stuff. But Scott, what do you think? What do you got on this one? Yeah, I agree with you. I think he missed his shot there. When he clunked his head almost against the wall, it gave up. We watched him go slowly down.  It just could clunk against the wall. If he hadn't been right and had gone in there, he could have gotten him right there. I think that was his shot at the end. I think he missed it at that point. But we might not have gotten the other stuff. We got a few minutes after that, or a minute or so after that. So that's, man, that's sort of hard to watch. It's like watching somebody fish and seeing a fish get away, but they get one and they don't realize that they got one earlier. I'm sure when you watch this back, he's like, oh, man, I had him right there. I think at this point, he knows they don't believe him. I think as the stress and pressure builds up, we're still seeing that panamide mimicking thing going on from all that stress. And I think everything is said when he just kind of gives up and it falls against the wall. That's, Greg, what do you got on all that? No, I think we're dead on, all of us are on the same page.  And people need to think about that as you're watching this video. So there are a whole lot of that guilt and all that remorse and everything else is going to come into play. But what we know is that when people are going to confess, and I'll talk in just a second about false confession, how we prevent it.  You have to lean over and comfort them. And what we do is we lean over and we say, Scott, it's okay, everybody makes mistakes. Something like that, it works. And then what we see is their body blossom open and they start to talk and their tone drops. When that tone goes back up, you've missed your mark. You're not gonna get it. When that tone goes back up and their voice gets more animated, you're gonna miss your mark. Now a good interrogator is going to verify information that only the person who caused the problem could know. And if they give information to that person during that stage, they can get a false confession, a very effective one. So that's the real test of a good interrogator, is that they use guilty knowledge as a test, not and they don't feed it. So guys, when you're watching interrogations, always remember that. Couple of things to note here, he's overly demonstrative because in our little brains, when we are in that back on our heels that way, the more demonstrative we are, the more believable it is. So we get to this point where we wanna make everything look big. Scott, you said it earlier, Vare says when we diminish, we look more guilty. So these people are wanting to look more believable. And in this case, he's so over the top, his brain is not rational at this point. So you gotta be careful what you inject to him so that you don't get what you want to hear. That's the only thing I'd say. And I think this guy is very careful with that. And that's probably why Mrs. is smart to get him to say something. That's it. That's why I hit hard, but not to the floor, I would guess. And then I hit a couple times. Okay. And I guess I'm wondering if you're feeling the bumps or even the rumble bars. Because you're doing right. I mean, I heard the rumble bars, yes, once I started applying the brakes. I don't remember any rumble bars prior to the brakes. You know, yeah. So prior to stepping on the brakes, you don't remember the rumble bars at all. I'm not looking over at him. Although I know it's a him or what it was. I was now, I guess I would say I'd describe it as tunnel vision. I mean, I was now trying to just try to get over and stop. I did not look, I did not know it was a man until the next day. So the, the... Excellent. Fabulous, man. Excellent.  Yeah, yes, yes. It's a real example. I mean, standard. So we'll show a lot of stuff. So if you were texting, we'll show it. I was not texting.  If you were answering emails, we'll show it. Right. And so if any of that was going on, let's take care of it now so we don't have to come back and reinvent this thing, Jason. And the best I can remember, I put it down, hit the radio, looked at the spine. I don't remember sending any texts, you know, and prior to the crash in the picture, and sure, you know, sure. And which I willingly gave and everything. I mean, And that's my fault to say texts. Yep, yep. Any kind of, right, e-transmission. Right. Whatever it is, right. Let's get it all taken care of now, because do I look at that stuff? Yes. But I looked at it and I know I put my phone down because I'm gonna think about this case and I'm getting rid of distraction, not adding to it. My question would be, why would you go into that Joe Biden article just to then set your phone down? I mean, if you were- That's what I do. If you see the headlines and stuff, I do that all the time. You know, I'd look at it, maybe, you know, like a scroll and if it's a long one, I don't, you know, never read it. I mean, I could do that when I'm sitting here. I'm like, if they're too long, yeah, next. And you go to the next one or go to not doing that anymore. So that one's a fairly, I mean, as it goes- Right. I mean, you look at it. It's not as dangerous. For sure. Right. I do not, I never read the article. I might have, you know, scraped, you know, scanned it and looked at it, but. So where do we go from here? How long? To all. Well, we're still, we're still gathering stuff. I mean, we wanted to get you up to speed. We wanted to, this was your opportunity to straighten things out. Right. Well, I want to help straighten stuff out. Absolutely.  And whether you think they're bogus or not. I think you're very genuine. Okay. Greg, you want to go first? Sure. I'll jump in on this one. So we're back in his wheelhouse when they start talking about legal stuff. And so they're getting him to this point where they're going to push him into a corner. He does a strong denial of texting and then there's no denial of texting. He kind of backs up and then he does that mantra again. Even to the point we realized that he's just doing it on autopilot because he goes down, hit radio, speedometer.  Then he goes to that shield of I don't remember. And then he's back to holy ground and he starts to rationalize why he was doing something. Then he goes back into that barrier and locks up and basically says, yeah, I always, always look at articles when I'm driving down the road. I just don't always read them. Now this is going from a guy who says, I never touch my phone to a guy who's admitting he always does it. This is a great example of that glue board or that bull terrier or whatever you want to call it. Slowly taking bites. The Colombo, just one more thing is what we're seeing here. And then finally, he looks like he's, when he says, how do we go from here? It's almost like, when do I go to the gallows? Just what he almost looks like. He just looks so defeated and beaten that I think this one ties everything we've said together in this entire thing. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just one thing, which I totally agree. He's completely fried at this point in his brain. And I get that from a behavior that I've not seen from him before, which was building up, which is this shaking of the head and then nodding of the head and shaking of the head and nodding of the head and shaking it. He doesn't know what he's shaking or nodding to.  He's totally fried. And I think you're right, Greg. He's just pulling on pre-prepared ideas and just trying to stack them all together and see where it falls. It's all over the place for him. Chase, what do you think? I'm just gonna say one thing about the interrogator here. He makes a mistake here, which I have done hundreds of times. And it's the equivalent of, I've got my line out there in the water. I'm watching the bobber. And sometimes the bobber's just moving because the wind and sometimes it's a fish down there.  And by the time he yanks, it might be a little too late. So I think he jumps into this confession strategy a little too late. And I've done it, I'm guilty of it. So I'm not saying he's doing anything wrong on purpose.  I've done it. I'm sure you guys have, it's just something that happens. And this is one of those things you look back on, especially if it's recorded. And you always look back on it. It's one of those things. Scott? Dang it. That's what I was gonna go with. I got nothing else but that. I should have figured, I should have saved that one to go first on. What are you gonna say, Greg? No, I think this is a great point for us all to discuss.  Cause we're trying to outthink that guy and playing the game at the same time. So all of us are feeling something and trying to think ahead. So yeah. And I understand where he's coming from because you know, they've been in there a while. That's, you know, it's I think it's a couple of hours at that point. And the thing is, when it dawns, he jumps up and says, oh yeah. Oh yeah. We all make mistakes.  He just totally missed it as the bobbers. That's a great way to put it. It's a great. But yeah, that's all I had. I said, that's all I need for that one. Dad, give him a chewing first. But I think you did bring up, Greg, was about the, when he was being very demonstrative about the texting. But when he said something about the email thing, he didn't say much. He was saying, yeah, yeah. His voice got real quiet at that point. So he wasn't texting. We know that. We know that from what happened at this point. But then when he says about the email, that's when he gets quiet. He goes, yeah, yeah. I don't know what he meant. I don't know what he meant.  Yes, yes. We were a sample. I mean standard. So we'll show you a lot of stuff. So if you were texting, we'll show it. I was not texting.  If you're answering emails, we'll show it. Right. And so if any of that was going on, let's take care of it now so we don't have to come back and reinvent this thing, Jason. And the best I can remember, I put it down, hit the radio, looked at the spot on it. I don't remember sending any texts, and prior to the crash in the picture and sure, you know, sure, which I willingly gave and everything. I mean, And that's my fault to say texts. Yep, yep. Any kind of e-transmission. Right. Whatever it is. Right, it's like, let's get it all taken care of now. Because do I look at that stuff? Yes. But I looked at it and I know I put my phone down because I'm gonna think about this case and I'm getting rid of distraction, not adding to them. My question would be, why would you go into that Joe Biden article just to then set your phone down? I mean, if you- That's what I do. I guess I just see the headlines and stuff. I do that all the time. You know, I look at it, maybe it's like a scroll and if it's a long one, I don't ever read it. I mean, I just gotta do that when I'm sitting here. I'm like, if they're too long, yeah, next. Can you go to the next one or go to not doing that anymore? So that one's a fairly, I mean, as it goes- Right, I mean, you look at it. If it's not- They have interest for sure. Right. I do not, I never read the article. I might have, you know, scraped, you know, scanned it and looked at it, but. So where do we go from here? How long? Till? Well, we're still gathering stuff. I mean, we wanted to get you up to speed. We wanted to, this was your opportunity to straighten things out. Wait, well, I wanna help straighten stuff out. Absolutely.  And whether you think they're bogus or not. Oh, I think you were very genuine. So Jason, you know, trying to figure out what our other options are to help you out with this to the animal. So if you were to take a polygraph on this, how would you do? I would pass. Except where I, I've asked my guys how that would work. Cause I thought of, can I take a polygraph? And I'm a polygraph examiner. Okay. And so. Well, they told me the only concern would be, now you know it, versus you didn't know it at the time. And I, I believe what I believe, you know, that I did not see him or anything else. But then they said, well, now you know that it was a man, even though at the time you didn't. Right. And it could fluctuate. But now I believe, and I will, you know, if that's what I gotta do, you know, I believed all my heart. I did not know what it was. I thought it and assumed it was a deer. And I never, I didn't know it was him telling something the next day. Chase, what do you got? This is a very common question that they teach you in read technique. How do you think you would do on a polygraph? The question I think is usually more revealing than the actual results of the polygraph. I will probably offend some people there. My opinion. But it's usually excuses of why they would fail, doubting the validity of the machine or absolute confidence. Those are kind of the three spectrum responses that you're gonna get. And you're kind of watching to see if they explain why they would fail. And that's exactly what he does. He offers a few reasons why he might fail the machine, but whoever advised him, that's not how polygraphs work. Him having done this and then found out, that's not how that machine works. He's talking about his own memory, not his beliefs. So he's using the word belief to talk about something that's facts. So Mark, did you get out of bed this morning? I believe I did, yeah.  If someone asks you some factual question we'll never use the word believe for it. So none of the baton gestures line up with anything and this video here is gonna be the one that I use for training. And I think we have to be careful here about the severity softening. And here's the reason, we talk a lot about this. If he had accidentally hit this person and truly did not know it, and then later found out you would still see severity softening from the guilt, the overwhelming guilt or bad feelings from what happened. So when you do see severity softening here I would discount that as a deception indicator because I think it would be equally present in someone who truthfully hit someone and didn't know that they did, but later found out. That's all I got for this one. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, so it's here Chase that I'm gonna bring up the pulling in of the elbows because I think it's important here. He says on his second, I believe, he says it three times on the second one. He says, I believe, and we see a double shrug which under normal circumstances if you're saying I believe in double shrug, I'd be totally, I wouldn't be happy with a single shrug but I'd be totally happy with a double shrug because it can often mean, hey, that's the way it goes, isn't it? That's just the way I see it and it could be okay.  I think in situations like this, that would cause me to suspect that he is not being accurate around what he believes. He doesn't truly believe, I think, what he's saying he's believing there. He's also the slaps, like all the slaps that we've had are incongruent with the timing that should be there. In my opinion, I don't think he thinks he's being accurate here. And so he may not be being accurate here. Scott, what do you think? This is where I was talking about earlier when we would have proof that he had talked to other attorneys at this point or some attorneys and I think they gave him bad advice because he says they told me, and like Chase was saying about the lie detector test, that it wouldn't work now properly because I know what happened. Well, shoot, they gave him bad attorneys, gave him bad advice apparently. If they think that's the way that works and they're supposed to be attorneys in that field, come on, man. No, at the very top of this, he's so wound up when he drinks his coffee as it right here. He always has to do this to take a drink of it. It's comedic, he's so tied up at that point. And at the very end, this is classic fading facts when he's telling his, he's saying his mantra for the last time as the Titanic goes down, it just gets quieter and quieter and quieter. There at the end, classic, classic fading facts. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, a couple of things. I don't, you know, I would take the lie detector except it wouldn't work for me because I don't sweat. That's what we just heard. You know, there's some reason that this doesn't work. I'm not like other people.  There's just no way. Chase to your point, either yes, I believe or there's something wrong with the test or there's something wrong with me that it won't work. Yeah, okay. I don't think that lie detectors are any more reliable than that cup of coffee that you just gave him. Funny, when I was a kid, I read in Ripley's, believe it or not, so we'll decide whether we believe it or not, that the first lie detector was having a person place their hand in a pool of water and looking for ripples as you ask a question. Just about as reliable. And what I think is cool about, and I've just pissed somebody off big time, but what I think is cool about it is you see him bracing his elbow because he's trying to prevent that. If you ever wanna see if somebody's uncomfortable, hand them a glass of water, a plastic cup of water as you can see the water. You can't miss it. I recently did a news piece on Nancy Pelosi when she was under duress, people were attacking her. She picked up a water glass and you could see it going like that. And I was like, just leave the glass alone. If you're in a job interview and you're uncomfortable and there's a glass of water or a bottle of water, leave it alone, don't touch it. But what we're seeing here is a great example of how uncomfortable he is. So he braces his arm so he can hold it up. Really telling. And then he says, I would accept. All that stuff going together makes me not believe him at all. Now, again, Chase, I agree with you, the severity softening, the duress, all of that can be tied to grief. But there's a whole lot of patterning here and a whole lot of preparation that makes this thing feel awkward. That's what I, oh man, by the way, Mark, I think he said, I believe six times. More times than through the entire interview to now. Yep. In one cent, in one sitting. So Jason, you know, trying to fill out what our other options are to help you out with this to the animal. So, if you were to take a polygraph on this, how would you do it? I would pass, except for I asked my guys how that would work because I thought of, can I take a polygraph? And I'm a polygraph examiner myself. And so they told me the only concern would be, now you know it, versus you didn't know it at the time. And I believe what I believe, you know, that I did not see him or anything else. But then they said, well, now you know that it was a man, even though at the time you didn't. Right. And it could fluctuate. But now I believe, and I will, you know, if that's what I got to do, you know, I believe all my heart. I did not know what it was. I thought it and assumed it was a deer. And I never, I didn't know it was him until I saw him the next day. All right. Well, let's throw it around the room and kind of wrap up very quickly, 30 seconds or less about what we saw here and what we think about it. Mark, you wanna go first? Yeah, you know what I'd be doing with this is going back through all of those videos and just watching the progression. Just go to each video and just see all those changes from micro ones to some quite extreme ones. And that will really help educate you in some of the things you'll be looking out for in the bigger body and some of the subtle things you should be looking out for. So great, great bit of learning there. Chase, what do you think? Yeah, I think this is a little bit of a lot of things, but I think there's a desire to be innocent. He's probably a genuinely nice guy. He's probably a good person to hang out with and he's trying to save his career. He probably feels horrible for this family, but he can't show it because it probably he thinks it will make him look guilty. I think the second side of this might be hubris in that being the attorney general. I don't need an attorney. I don't need a lawyer present. I shouldn't have to have anybody there with me. So I think it's a mix between those two personality types coming together and it's bad. I feel bad for the guy, but I do think there's some definite deception here. Greg? Yeah, I'm with you. This is a guy who served his country, a guy who put his time in. I think he's a career military officer about to make colonel before this happened. He's an attorney general. Regardless of which side of political arena you're on, this guy has done a lot of things in his life to get to where he's at and those mistakes are not just costing him, they cost a person their life. Now, the pieces we're seeing here, all that duress, it's going to happen regardless of whether you did something like hide it and run away, but it surely doesn't look good when the stress comes and rises around those places. The guys who are investigating did a very good incremental job of taking him away from the story of I never touched my phone to saying I do it all the time and. Now, what you have to be aware of is there's a lot of ways that you can be guilty and we know that it's against the law, what he did, he even brings it up. Does that mean there was intent? There's a whole lot of stuff in there. We're not pointing at any of that. We're just telling you, we see enough signs that he is uncomfortable around certain areas where he should not be uncomfortable about what he was doing at the time that this is the reason that he's had trouble and these law enforcement officers did a good job of breaking his story down and taking him from a guy who never touches his phone to someone who reads headlines all the time and and and. So he's admitted to patterns of guilt that would make them believe that he's doing this. I'll leave it at that and Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I think it's a great example of watching like Mark was saying, watching somebody just come apart, you know, through these 14 videos, just watch him go from where he is, scoot up against that wall, everything hunched over, bent down. We see all those things. And I think this is a great, and I think I agree with the Greg. I think the interrogators did a great job on this because we started out with the one that was right. That was to his left. That guy came in and the other guy takes over and starts getting in there. He did, he, you know, we can say he missed a couple of shots there, but maybe that's maybe that's his style. You know what I mean? That could definitely be his style because it worked out the way it should have worked out. I think he go