Let's get to some basketball. We have a great show for you. We have a tremendous interview with Eric Horne. He is the Oklahoma City Thunder beat writer for the Oklahoman. He gives us some outstanding insight into Russell Westbrook and Paul George. And whether or not he thinks Paul George will re-sign with the Thunder, you'll be surprised at his answer. Then of course we got my man Jay Mack for another outstanding episode of Not Down Jay. But first, as always, we're getting to the top five. This was an interesting week in the NBA. You saw Blake Griffin get traded in a move that shocked everyone associated with the association. He was traded to Detroit. And that got me to thinking, who are the best five clippers in franchise history? Now you might think it's obvious because it's not like they've had a wonderful history. But I think I'm gonna throw some surprises at you. At number five, DeAndre Jordan, the big man, the seven footer. He has had a great career with the Clippers since all 10 years of his career spent there. He might be on the move before next week's trade deadline, just like his boy Blake. But if so, he will go down as one of the greatest players in franchise history. At number four, Elton Brand, yes, the undersized center out of Duke, had a great career, seven seasons with the Clippers, revitalized the franchise in the early 2000s, gave them 20 points, 10 rebounds a game on 50% shooting, two-time All-Star and led the Clippers to two playoff appearances and really put them back on stage as a legitimate franchise. At number three, Blake Griffin, by far the most exciting player in franchise history and the fifth greatest game dunker of all time, according to yours truly, also won a slam dunk championship, five-time All-Star with the Clippers and also gave us some of the best commercials in NBA history. At number two, Chris Paul, yes, the running mate of Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan gave the franchise its first and only big three. They had the greatest run in franchise history, but it was a bit disappointing because this was a team with Chris Paul leading the way that had the capability to get to the NBA finals if not win a championship, but they never got past the second round. But hey, Chris Paul was fantastic in most regards, 19 points, 10 assists the game in his six years with the Clippers, had a couple bad playoff moments, but also had some tremendous ones. One of the greatest point guards we've ever seen and the second greatest Clipper of all time. So you're now wondering who in the world is number one? He averaged 28 points, nearly 13 rebounds a game and it's stint with the Clippers. Look, it's clear cut, not Chris, not Blake, not Elton, not DeAndre, but Bob McAdoo is the greatest player in Clippers franchise history. Yes, never played for the Clippers, but remember the Clippers used to be the San Diego Clippers. Who used to be the Buffalo Braves and that's where Mr. McAdoo did his thing. Early 70s, five years with the Braves led him to three playoff appearances. Two of those playoff appearances, they lost to the eventual champions of the NBA, Boston Celtics in six games both years. So he led them to great team success, but more than that, he was an individual superstar, a five time all star with the Braves. Three times scoring leader and each of those three years, he put in over 30 points a game. 1974, 75 season became the only NBA MVP in franchise history. Average 28 points, nearly 13 rebounds a game in his stint with the Clippers. It's clear cut, not Chris, not Blake, not DeAndre, not Elton, but Bob McAdoo is the greatest Clipper of all time. Wow, that was a great interview with Eric Horn of the Oklahoma homing. We're gonna move right from that into knockdown Jay, which we always love doing with my man Jason McIntyre, Jay Mc, or otherwise known as my punching bag. But before we get to that, I do wanna hit on a serious note. Obviously, we all have heard the news about Rasool Butler, the former NBA player who was killed along with his wife in a car crash, just wanna send my regards out to his family and praying for their comfort in this tough time. It's just a sad thing. I didn't know Rasool well, but I did know him. Everything I heard about him, he was just a great guy, a very positive individual. So this is a big loss for the NBA community. So our prayers go out to Rasool's family. With that said, let's bring in Jay Mack. What's happening, man? That is an unfortunate note, very sad story.  Chris, I gotta get started with this. I heard your great interview with the Oklahoma homing writer, I cannot believe he said that the Thunder have a 52% chance of keeping Paul Joe. I mean, that is absolutely insanity. Chris, if you know- Have you been listening to Paul George recently? Means absolutely nothing genuine. If we are headed in the right, they have won 16 of their last 22 games. Oh, wow. 16 and six, they're offense. Remember when the Cavs won 18 and 19?  They're much better than the Cavs. They've beaten Golden State, they've beaten Houston, they've beaten San Antonio, they've beaten Cleveland. They are playing very good basketball. I'm not saying they're gonna beat Golden State. Okay, well, let me get to my point at least, okay? So you said 52% chance of keeping Paul George. Well, you mentioned all those great wins. That was with defensive wizard Andre Roberson. I believe the- Roberson. With Roberson out, they're gonna need- If you can't pronounce his name, you don't know about his game. I said Andre Roberson, did I not? Is that there? Is Roberson? Roberson, start. Paul George now has to take his place as the defensive stopper, Chris. That means if they match up with Houston, Paul, you gotta guard James Harden. We need you to lock him down. Paul, you gotta guard Kawhi Leonard. We need you to lock him down. Oh, Kevin Durant, Paul, you gotta guard him. I don't think Paul George is gonna be excited about that. And remember, this is a team where their defensive numbers with Andre Roberson are way up without him, way down. This is a huge loss. I don't think Paul George is happy. He's not an all star. I know he's not happy. He is an all star. Well, he is now, but he did not get chosen for the two. It counts all the same, man. It does. However, if he were on the Lakers, as he will be next year, he's gonna be out, but LeBron doesn't come. He will 100% be an all star with the Lakers. If he was on the Lakers this year, he wouldn't have been an all star. No, because they wouldn't be in the playoffs. They would be in the top eight for Chris. Without question, Paul George, 0% chance of staying in OKC. Your thoughts? So are you saying he shouldn't consider staying in OKC? I don't think he should consider it at all. Unless he wants to continue being a second banana, a Scotty Piffin, when in reality, Paul George can be an alpha. He can be a number one. Really? He can be an alpha? Yeah, like he was in Indiana. Yeah, like he was in Indiana the last two years when they finished seventh and eighth in the East. Yeah, are you forgetting about the years? Take that. Take him to the Eastern Conference Finals. Bring that stuff to the West. And those Indiana Pazer team would not have even made the playoffs. He made the Eastern Conference Finals twice as their alpha, going toe to toe with LeBron, putting up like 27 a game. He is an alpha. The last two years in Indiana, when he was the alpha, they finished seventh and eighth in the Eastern. Bad team. With Miles Turner. He carried them to the playoffs. Miles Turner was like 19 years old, man. Come on. With Jeff Teague, who's starting on a home court advantage playoff team in the West. He's the reason. Yes, yes. With Thaddeus Young. He had enough talent where they should have been higher in the East. Look, I like Paul George. I don't want to bash Paul George. He's a very good player. He's a top 15 NBA player without a doubt. Whatever, whatever. That doesn't mean you can lead a team to contention for an NBA title, because there aren't 15 guys in the league who can do that. All right. So Paul George should stay in Oklahoma City. If there's no implosion in the locker room, or if they, you know, in the court, it just gets ugly. How about if there's nothing, if there's nothing, let me finish. If there's nothing like that, they continue to play well, maybe get to the second round and lose. I mean, nobody said they're going to beat Houston or Golden State, but they get to the second round, play one of those two teams tough. Then he should stay in Oklahoma City at least next year. OK, let me give it. Let me give it one more year. You'll be better acclimated to Billy Donovan's system. You'll be better acclimated to playing with Russ as we see the whole team will have better chemistry next year. Give it one more year to see if you can make a run. Why go to the Lakers? Now, we're assuming he doesn't go with LeBron. If he and LeBron go to the Lakers together, I can't be too mad at him because, let me fit, because that, you know, would be a good team in the West. But I'm talking, we're talking right now just about Paul George. Do not go to the Lakers next year by yourself because you will not make the playoffs in the West and there's a good chance because of that, you would not make the All-Star team again. You stay in Oklahoma, you get home court advantage next year, you make another All-Star team and your team will be better suited to make a run at the Warriors. Did you watch the first game last night that the Wizards played now that John Wall's out for six weeks? It was again with O.K.C. Did you see how bad O.K.C. looked? They got run out of the gym by Bradley Beal and Otto Porter. That's a team that's not ready without Andre. I'm not gonna say his last name because I'll butcher it again. I'm telling you. I also saw, first of all, they've won a few games recently without Robertson. Jeremy Grant and Terrence Ferguson, they're not Robertson, he's one of the best defenders in the league. But as they mature over the course of time, this year and get more acclimated to their new role, I think they'll do pretty well in that position. And don't give me what happened last night. Because guess what I also saw? I saw Golden State get beat by a certain. I'm not gonna jump into a conclusion off of that. Don't give me one game. I gave you a month and a half of work, 16 and six, you give me one game. Come on, brother. Come on. Quick point, quick point. How good are the Lakers next year with Paul George? They're a playoff team, a thousand percent in the playoffs. Hundred percent. So when I name a team, they'll be better than you say something, raise your hand or whatever. Golden State, Houston, San Antonio, Minnesota, Oklahoma, they're gonna be better than Minnesota. Oh, stop. Oh my goodness. I should kick you out of the zone. I should kick you out of the zone for saying that. All right, let's move on to the next one. Then Minnesota gonna be nice. I don't wanna do your work. Are we judging this one? You're in New York, hanging out with your wife. Is Josh there? Josh is not here. You're living it up in New York. Hold on, hold on. I go to New York. You're in my studio and you have convinced my producers, my staff that we should no longer judge this because you lose every week. We're gonna judge it. Listen, your boy Goldy's trying to hang out at UCLA and play basketball. We don't have him right now. Let's move on. Andrew Lynch. Lynch is not here. Jeremy Benbow. They are there. Neo Foley. But you are living it up in New York. So they're enjoying all this free time without having to crack the whip. All right, I'll do it. 1-0, Bruce, all right, go ahead. Next topic. So the big trade in the NBA this week, Blake Griffin from the Clippers to the Pistons. Massive trade. And I look at it, Chris, and I think without question, the LA Clippers won this deal. I thought it was good for the Pistons. Listen, when you're in Detroit and you're not gonna lure big time free agents, you get Blake, you deal with it. That's as good as you can do. But this is a home run for the Clippers. Home run?  Is it ever? Explain. Well, first of all, Blake Griffin has been largely rendered irrelevant in the NBA because of Matt, okay? 20, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. He's a dunker. 22.8 rebounds, five assists a game. 44% field goal shooting. And has a team. What a losing team. But hold on, hold on. Has a team full of injuries. Lost their best player in the playoffs in the West, but he's irrelevant. Okay, go for it. I mean, yeah, if you wanna get to the playoffs and get smoked by the Warriors and embarrassed in four games, yeah. You just told me that's what Paul George is signed up for. No, he's not gonna be the eighth seed. They're looking at like five or six next year. Oh my gosh. So anyway, so the reason I love it for the Clippers is you wanna be flexible, Chris. You wanna accumulate draft picks. They got one in the Pistons trade. And you wanna have the ability to go to Kauai Leonard, who maybe wanted to get out of San Antonio. You can go to Porzingis when he's unhappy with the Knicks. And Yanis, if he grows tired of Milwaukee and these guys demand a trade the way Butler decided, I'm done here. Kairi, I'm out. You wanna have the ability to go after those guys say, listen, we're in the number one market in the country. We have Cap Room Galore. Come to sunny LA, enjoy it. And that's where the Clippers are gonna be when Jerry West is done with this team before the trade deadline. I love it if I'm the Clippers.  I think it was fine. I think it was a decent trade for both teams. I understand why Detroit did it. If Detroit can get to say the second round of the playoffs in the East and with Andre Drummond, Blake Griffin, Reggie Jackson was playing a little better this year. You know, maybe you throw in a couple more pieces that they can add. If they get to the second round, two out of the last four years of Blake's contract, they're happy with that. They've been irrelevant for the last, you know, nine years.  I get it from the Clippers standpoint. You were gonna be mediocre. A lower run playoff team with Blake this year. You know, if indeed you even made it.  I will push back on the notion that the Clippers won definitively. And I know that's a popular notion. I think it was fine for both teams. Here's why I'll push back. There is, there is no guarantee that when you decide to rebuild that it's going to work out. Everybody's looking at Philadelphia who could have two of the all-time greats and Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid and saying, let's do that. Let me, let me let you in on a little secret. This is what, this is how a lot of executives in the NBA keep their jobs. They sell hope to the owner. The team's bad, the team's horrible, but we've got draft picks. How about Phoenix? And hold on, let me finish. We've got draft picks and we've got, you know, young players. That's hope. You don't know if that's going. First of all, I'm tired of people overestimating the value of a draft pick. Just guess who was a lottery pick last year? Malik Monk, De'Aaron Fox, Josh Jackson. How are those looking? Are they turning things around? No. So, you know, stop it with the draft pick. It's just selling. It's just pulling the wool over the eyes of these owners. I'm just saying, okay, let me give you even some stronger, let me, let me give you some stronger evidence. Okay. All right. There are more often than not, when teams hit the total rebuild button, I know the Clippers are denying it probably because they know these facts. I'm about to ring out to you. You usually, you usually don't get back to where you were. The Clippers may never get back to where they were, which was a relevant second round playoff team. They'll look back seven years from now, same man. We never won it all, but those Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, De'Andre Jordan years were pretty good. Here's why, here's why. No, you'll take it. How far did Phoenix go with Steve Nash? Did they ever get to the, even the finals? No, but you Phoenix would die for that run. How far did Sacramento go with Pages Solyakovich, Chris Weber in the game? I like those teams. Yeah, they were great. They never got to the finals though.  The Knicks with Patrick Ewing, disappointing, never won it. The Knicks would die for that type of run this year. Let's go over to the math. Phoenix Suns, who I mentioned, they decided to do what the Clippers just did in 2010. They let them always style them higher walk. Okay. Which was a good decision though, Chris. Okay. They didn't soon let Steve Nash get traded to the, they traded him to the Lakers. Okay. Here's what's happened to Phoenix since with all their draft picks, their young talent and they got some because Devin Booker is the man. Yeah. Okay. But they have not sniffed the playoff since 2010. Let's move on Sacramento. We're going to rebuild. We're going to do the same thing the Clippers just did. Let's trade Chris Weber to Phoenix cause you are to Philadelphia. Cause you know what? We just didn't get it done. It was, it's over. It was, we never won a championship. Let's move on. Guess what happened to them? They made the playoffs one more year after that. And having been to the playoffs since 2006. Let's move on Cleveland Cavaliers. Well these are teams though that cannot get paid agents, Chris. Cleveland Cavaliers. I don't know Cleveland. He's going there. People will go to LA. Oh really? How many Clippers have, how many free agent signings have the Clippers now? Jerry West is running the show. He's respected. He's the logo. Jerry West is the man. But when they sign, when they sign a big time free agent, that'll be the first, first great when they sign. Cavaliers with Kyrie Irving and another number one pick, irrelevant, irrelevant. They got lucky that LeBron decided to grace them with his presence again. So all I'm saying, Orlando, Dwight Howard, now I wasn't there for Dwight left, but since Dwight left, they've been in rebuild mode, haven't come close to the playoffs since 2012. All I'm saying, Jay Mac, is don't these executives sometimes be selling dreams. All right? They sell dreams to the owners. I know our team is horrible. Let me get some picks. Let me get some cat room and tell him hope reigns supreme. All right? They look, I'm not saying the Clippers can't get back and they have Jerry West at the helm. I love him. But this notion that Derek, this was great. And they're definitely gonna get back to, you know, being a first or second round playoff team in the next seven years, they may not. So don't tell me how they won so much. They ain't won nothing. They gave away one of the most exciting players in the league. Their fan base was raucous. I would go to the game. People were excited about them. That's better than being Sacramento or Phoenix or Orlando, which could be where they're headed. People were excited about Blake Griffin and his six surgeries. And he's what, 28, 29 years old? Chris, I do want to give you- Have you been to a Clippers game this year? I have not. No. Am I missing out? Am I missing out on the losses? Then I think I, cheering for Lou Williams. I've been there. That was a passionate rant. I love that. I want to make a note here to our guys. We need to run that back come June, July, early when free agency hits. Cause that was good. When LeBron, yeah, when LeBron becomes the Clipper, right? When LeBron and Paul George join the Clipper. Speaking of LeBron, last topic. Your buddy, LeBron James, can you text him and say, great job. LeBron had a cryptic message on Instagram, his story today, after an embarrassing loss to the Pistons last night. This is what LeBron said. When you become lazy, it's disrespectful to those who believe in you. Now we can spend 20 minutes. Who was it about? Was it about Isaiah? Was it about Kevin Love's injury? Tristan Thompson, JR Smith? We won't go there. Chris, I just want to say right now, the Cleveland Cavaliers are going to be without Kevin Love for six weeks. I think LeBron is angry. You know I've been leading the charge that LeBron is leaving Cleveland. It's looking increasingly. You're leading the charge. Oh, I have been all season. You've been killing me. And now you're going to give me some props. No one else is saying that. Well, yeah. Now they're saying it for Chris. I do want to say this. Okay. Here's the last number I'm going to give you. LeBron spent four years in Miami. He gave over 125 points three times. The Cavs this season are playing so bad a defensive, giving up 125 or more five times. Chris, it's DEF CON 1 in Cleveland. Your thoughts? Well, look, I mean, you mentioned the defense. I don't think it's fair to just throw out the points per game because it's a different era.   I mean, I would have preferred you give me a defensive efficiency number or field goal percentage. I think they're 29th to defensive. Yeah, they're horrible defensive. I mean, yeah, they're horrible. And Isaiah Thomas, your buddy, negative 25 last night. Six turnovers. Continue. Yeah, no, yeah, no. I mean, look, I'm not going to defend the Cavaliers. They're horrible. What about LeBron going after his teammates? Right before the great deadline? I don't know what he's... What do you think he's talking about is made? Let me say this. The quote is tremendous. I don't... My guess is that's not a quote that LeBron made up. I'm sure that's some philosopher or something. If it is, if he did make it up, great job. Cause that's a serious quote. I love the quote. However, I don't like this form of motivation, if you will, that LeBron likes to use. I don't, it wasn't because of these little cryptic tweets. It was just because he's such a great basketball player and they had other great basketball players like Kyrie and Kevin Love and a good role player. I don't like it because number one, if it's not, if you're just throwing it out there and it's not, cause he said that before, some tweets or tweets or Instagram posts, he's put out that he said had nothing to do with his teams about his kids and stuff like that.  All right, so number one, this, I don't like it for that reason. Number two, if you are referring to your teammates or coaches or executives in front of his owner, whoever, just go to them man to man and talk to him. But we don't know he hasn't done that. He could have done that. I know, I'm not saying, I'm just saying I would rather, that's the better way to handle it. No, no, no, no, no. This stuff doesn't. Chris, this is what LeBron would do. If I'm having a big history. He's what? He's one of the best players in NBA history. He's going to settle for this. That doesn't mean perfect performance for my dad. That doesn't mean he's perfect. And this style of leadership is not, I don't think it's becoming.  He should go and talk to whoever he's got an issue with man to man. That's how you do it.  This is what's up. We don't know what he's saying. He might not be talking about anybody. He's talking about his dog. You're right. I forgot. Who do you think he's talking about? Isaiah Thomas, who was terrible. His defense has been an embarrassment, Chris. He's hit 15 points. It was an embarrassment. 25% on three pointers. He's been awful. And he's chummy with Dan Gilbert. I'm sure you read that story. He's texting with Dan Gilbert. Isaiah wants that next contract, man. He don't care about this team. He's thinking about next year. It is toxic in Cleveland right now, Chris. I don't care what you're reading or hearing. I know it is ugly. They play the heat tonight on a back-to-back. I'm not saying it's not toxic and ugly. It is. I mean, who doesn't? That's why he's leaving. Are you on board that LeBron is out? 100% out. He's probably leaving. I'm not going 100% because I don't make that. I'm not doing it. Oh, come on. That's what this is about. Fine. You're going to take another loss. Look, I don't know. On your own podcast. All right. No, I don't know if he's leaving and neither do you. You haven't talked to anybody who's within 1,000 miles of LeBron, James. So just stop it. All right. I'm more responsible than that. Oh, yes. I think he's leaving. But I don't know for sure. I think he's in the Lakers. Now, let me say this. Here's why he's definitely not talking about Isaiah Thomas. I think LeBron has got higher characters than that. OK? Isaiah Thomas, his defense has been atrocious. You're absolutely right. But guess what? It's because he's 5'9". And because he's not a good defender. It's not because he's lazy. He's never been a good defender. He's not shooting the ball well. It's not because he's lazy. He's not doing anything. It's because he's coming back. He's just got back, what, nine, 10 games from a seven and an injury that kept him out seven months. Now, I'm going to give LeBron, James, more credit than to jump on a 5'9". Cat who everybody knows can't defend and a guy who's shooting poorly because he's rusty. So who's he talking about?  Who's he calling out? That would be ridiculous. If you want to say Isaiah Thomas is not playing well, he's got to pick it up. We need him to concentrate on whatever. But don't call him lazy. I think the dude is trying. Now, I don't know who he's talking about, but if I had to render a guess, I would say Dan Gilbert because I am in the front office because I think what he's saying, if he's addressing somebody with the Cavaliers organization, I think it's Dan in the front office because I speculate that he's implying that you are not beating the bushes hard enough to find us a trade that will get us on a different level, closer or equal to the Warriors. And then you could say that's being lazy. OK. Chris, I gotta say, that's not good. Instead of being at all these college games, watching Trey Young demand by the way. Yeah, he's scouting Trey Young. He ain't selling the team if he's scouting Trey Young. It ain't time to be scouting. All right, you got time to scout. It's time for you to be in your computer or in your phone trying to get us a trade that will make us better. If you're not doing that, you're being lazy. That's what I think he's saying. An uncharacteristically strong performance from you today, Bruce Tart. Honestly, you had some of your better points. I don't know what it is about New York. Maybe you got soft coming out here in LA. I've been beating you up lately. This was one of your better performances. I got to give you some props.  You're back here next week in your zone. I'm back there next week to slap them up again. Good job. You brought some good topics. I can't say you acquitted yourself well. Commenters are going to love this one, Chris. They've been gassing me up since I showed off the guns a couple of weeks ago. You keep wearing your little tank tops. You keep wearing your little son's tank tops. You don't even follow me on IG. All tight on you and all that. You're going to get some fans out there. I give you credit. You in the weight room. You in the weight room. All right, my man, Jay Mack, always good to debate and discuss with you. Love you, brother. I'll see you next week in LA. Good job. All right, thanks. Eric Horne, what's happening, man? It's good, man. It's a beautiful day in Oklahoma City. I am not on the DC trip, but I will be in Denver on Thursday. OK, OK.  You're from Louisiana, as am I. Please do. Please do. So I'm proud of your success. Three years on the beat, right, at the Oklahoma and covering the Thunder, is that correct? Yep, yep. Third year this year. Great. Great. Well, of course, there's always a lot going on with the Thunder. So let's get right into it. Before we get to the serious stuff, I have to ask you, what in the world was up with Russell Westbrook's bathrobe the other day that he wore to the game? We had a conspiracy theory that that was in honor of Andre Robertson, whose name is typically mispronounced as Roberson and visiting arenas. But that is a deep, deep cut conspiracy theory. That was just Russell being a goofball, because Russell Westbrook aware, basically, I feel like Russell Westbrook walks to the door as he's leaving his house, and he sees something laying around, and he's like, yep, that's it today. That's the one. Like, his son might have been teething on that bathrobe before he walked out the door. And he said, give me that, Noah. I'm wearing that to the game tonight. Russell's off the chain, man. There's no rival reason to what he does or what he wears. He just does things. And he always keeps showing your toes, man. He's an interesting cat. Have you ever asked him what's up with his wardrobe, his choices, and all that? You ever talk to him about that? Man, let me tell you. If I asked him that, he'd probably shoot me a funny look. But he's one of those guys that says, his wardrobe choices, they were inspired by his mother, I think. His mom always encouraged him to be different. And he says dating back to when he was a kid, his mom was always making sure he looked fresh or whatever. Like, had the fresh stuff and always wanted him to look good. And I think that that has inspired him as an adult to never be standard, never be a guy who's doing what anybody else is doing. And he's been ahead of the curve, man, when it comes to these guys and their fashion. He's made it into a runway. It's like, you're anticipating his outfits. Like, every TV game, we know Russell's going to wear some wild stuff. Like, he came in, I guess it was maybe two games ago, he came in and he had a shirt that looked like a cheetah attacked him before he came in the game. Yeah, I saw that one, the yellow one, right? To where you could just see all of his muscles and everything. You obviously like to show off his body because he's got a great physique. But he'll just wear some wild stuff, man. And look, if I was Russell Westbrook and I had that kind of physique and confidence, I'd probably be doing some crazy stuff, too. Don't say that. Don't say that, man. You wouldn't dress like that. You know it. No, you're right. I guess the definition of fresh has changed over the years. But that's neither here nor there. So let me ask you this. The Thunder have been, it's been well-documented that their locker room was famously high-style, I guess, toward the media. Has that changed? And I don't want to blame it all on Kevin Durant. It may not have been his fault at all. But has that dynamic changed at all in the last year and a half or so since KD's been gone? Oh, I guess I can look at it like this. It's been better this year because you have other guys or other stars to work with that aren't Russell Westbrook. And I want to be careful about the world of high-style because I don't think it's necessarily been high-style as it's been difficult at times because they're player first. They've always been player first, whether it was Kevin here or Russell by himself or the situation they've got going on now. They're player first, they cater to their players and that makes it difficult at times for us to have some of the access that we typically have we were covering another team. But Kevin was here, Kevin was a guy who was real, he would stand and take the punches at the games most of the time and he was kind of a guy that Russell could play off of, Kevin could play off of Russell, their lockers are right next to each other, they would take some heat off of each other. Kevin leaves, Russell's basically got to be the guy that's got to talk every night. You don't have somebody else that is of a star caliber to go and take some of that media pressure off of him. Now, Stephen Adams took a little bit of that but it was basically Russell's show last year and I think that sometimes it may for some contentious media sessions. Now this year it's back to where there's more balance. You got Paul George, you got Carmelo Anthony. They like to play games sometimes and get dressed at the same time and then we got to make a choice as to who we're going to get first. So you want to walk out to the back door while we get a choice to get Carmelo Anthony or Paul George, they're strategic, they're sneaky about it. But it's a better atmosphere because you have more professionalism in the locker room. I can say that Russell's not a professional but you know this, Chris, he's not a guy who's going to go all in and be candid and they give you your standard media answers or really get into the exit of those of basketball. Like you can ask Carmelo Anthony a basketball question and he's going to be a professional and stand up there and answer it. He's been doing that for 15 years. Same thing with Paul George for the most part. Russell's not here for that mess. Like he comes to my basketball, it takes him a while to wind down after games and he'll bite your head off sometimes. And you got to kind of gauge the feel of how he's going at the interview.  Sometimes I think there should be more challenging guys when it comes to players because sometimes these guys just tell us what we want to hear. But sometimes you ask them a yes or no question and Russell would just be like, no, like somebody a couple of weeks ago said, Russell, can you tell us about so-and-so and what they do or he said, tell us about so-and-so and what they do. And Russell's like, no, I can't. He's like, no, I can't do that. I don't want to. And I was just like, yep, that's what it was, bro. So he worded it. He gave him a no. He said, can you? And he said, no, I can't. Sure. No, I can't. Well, everybody, well, let me ask you this about Russell. Let's stay on Russell. There is this perception in the national media that Russell is hard to play with. And obviously with Durant leaving, a lot of people have really jumped on him since then. What's your take on that? Do you feel like that's the case and Howard George and Mello kind of feeling about that? Well, I think that it's overblown. I think if you ask certain players like a Stephen Adams, if Russell is difficult to play with, he'd be the first guy to tell you that Russell puts it on the platform. He's one of the best pick and roll guards in the league, finding guys on lobs, finding guys in transition. I think it's challenging to be a teammate of Russell Westbrook, but I wouldn't say, I wouldn't do it as far to say that he doesn't make guys better. I think he does make guys better. I think he pushes guys to work harder than they have before in their careers. Everybody's marveling at what Victor O'Deepo is doing right now in Indiana. And with good reason, Vic's having a tremendous season. But Victor O'Deepo, he'll be the first one to tell you that he didn't understand what putting in work was until he got to Russell Westbrook. And when he started putting in, when he got around Russell Westbrook, that's when Victor kind of understood what he needed to do to be a better player. And Victor, you see the physique change he's had in this past year. We're not gonna give Russell Westbrook all the credit, but it's clear that Russell Westbrook rubbed off on him in some way and Vic said this before. Vic was ready to come into Thunder Camp in the shape he's in now. And he just happened to get traded with Paul Jolsey. So Russell Westbrook's had a clear effect on guys he's played with. Look, he got Carmelo Anthony at the stage of his career where Melo's on the down slope. Melo's having to adjust to a new role, primarily being a spot-up guy and he has to cut out the isolations. Look, will Paul George be a better player if he wasn't playing with Russell Westbrook? I'm not sure. I think Paul George is starting to come around to having a really good season. He's shooting like 43% from three and he defended his butt off. So I think these guys, as their offense has gotten better, they're finally in the top 10 in the league in offense now. I think you're starting to see that Russell Westbrook is a guy that you can play with and he's a guy that can lead a team. I think that national perception's been overblown because we tend to jump on narratives really quickly and that Victor Oladipo thing took off so quick that people were quick to jump on that. Oh, Russell Westbrook was the reason that Victor Oladipo. No, let's give this thing some time, man. Let's let this thing play out a little and now you're starting to see the thunder thump some teams offensively. When you say Russell, obviously you're talking about how great his work ethic is. Beyond the typical going to practice, putting in your work in your two or three hours of practice or whatever, what does he do? Like what's part of his routine like that goes above and beyond? Well, from what I understand, he basically doesn't put any trash in his body. He doesn't smoke or drink. He's meticulous in his regimen. He's cliche first guy there. Victor Oladipo has mentioned that too. He thought he was getting there earlier. Russell was already there with a ladder when they were working on the offer.  He goes beyond what's necessary for an athlete in order to get himself ready. And frankly, he has to. He's a guy that people don't think about it, but he's 29 years old now. He ain't young anymore, man. So yeah, it's one of those where he's a guy who's got neat tendonitis. It's only gonna be a matter of time before, age is gonna catch up to him. He's gonna lose that burst. He might have to have a knee surgery in his future. I'm not saying he's injured right now. He looks fantastic, but he's always gonna have some knee issues. He had a PRP this summer. He's already had three right knee surgeries in his career in that one year that he missed a big chunk of time. So Russell knows he has to keep his body in peak shape. He knows he has to be on top of it because he could deteriorate quickly as a small gardener's league. He can lose that burst. And then, you know, that's a big part of his game, man. So he's always that guy that's out working these guys. And I think that it really revealed a lot to people through that Victorola Depot transformation because that guy was ready to come back and run with Russell. And I wish I could have seen it together. I'm gonna be interested to see these two guys together at All-Star and how they- So they were close. They were close. They were close when Victor was there. They worked out together. Yeah, Victor studied him. They worked out together in the off season leading up to the season that they thought Kevin was coming back. They worked out together in California. I'm not gonna go as far as saying they were close because I don't think Russell Westbrook has super tight relationships with a lot of guys, but, you know, he likes to keep his close circle family, friends, agent. But he took Victor under his wing, you know? I mean, and Vic will be the first person to tell you he owes a lot to Russell in terms of his preparation and what he's become as a player. Obviously Russell, I mean, what he did last year and averaging a triple double was just incredible. Obviously, we never thought we'd see that again in the modern NBA. But shoot, he's basically averaging a triple double this year, 25.5, 10 assists and 9.5 rebounds. Is it possible, and you saw most of the games last year, you've seen most of the games this year, and maybe the answer is a flat out no, but is it possible he's having a better season this year than last year? I think he is. I really do. I mean, if he wanted to be averaging a triple double this year, basically all he had to do was go to Carmelo Anthony and negotiate and say, hey, man, let me get a couple more defensive rebounds. That's all he really needs to do because that's essentially what they were doing for him last year in terms of the rebounding.  I didn't know they're wrong with that. I mean, on the defensive side, like if they want to let the guy get the rebounds, that's fine, whatever. He could start the fast break quicker and then he gets a statistical bump, fine. But I think that this season is more impressive because Russell didn't have to, he didn't have to bend to anything last year. It was basically his will against the other team. Now he's got to run with Paul Georgia-Carmelo Anthony. He's got to balance the locker room. He's got to balance his ego and his need to, you know, just go and take over a game, which I think he's done better as the season's going on because I think at the beginning of the season, he was almost, he was almost playing on eggshells. Like it was kind of, I think maybe, maybe, and I'll admit this myself. I went into this season thinking that Russell had to be a different player or he had to make a big change in order for Melo and Paul Georgia feel comfortable. And I think maybe you saw that in Russell's game early and it wasn't really working. It was uncomfortable. It didn't look fluid. It didn't look like he was playing with his instinct. Rather, he was thinking about getting these guys in positions to be happy and successful with the ball in their hand. Now it's like, I think Russell's made a decision. I think the guys around him have made a decision. Look, this is your team. We have to get comfortable to you. And ever since Russell started getting back to that mid-range, about mid-December, cutting out the three-point shots, being more mindful of his turnovers, his shooting percentages have skyrocketed. His three-point percentage is still down, but frankly, he's gotten enough three-point power, power around him to where he doesn't need to be thinking about shooting the three-point as much. He's getting to the line more. He's been explosive around the rim. He's dunking the ball more. And frankly, he's been more invested defensively. So he's played way more defensive this year than he did last year. And I think part of that is having guys around like Paul George that are also excellent defenders. But Russell's been a better all-around player this year. He's got himself back in the MVP conversation since mid-December. He's been a phenomenal offensive player. Their offense is now top 10 in the league. Like I said, over the past month and a half, it's been a top five offense. So I would argue, even though he's not averaging the numbers that pop out of you, the triple double numbers, he's not far off. And he's having a better season in my opinion. You mentioned Paul George. Obviously, that's the question everybody has. Will he stay? I'm saying he has been so almost gushing about the situation in Oklahoma, about Russ himself. Obviously, when Russ came out and defended him being left off or defended him against being left off the All-Star team. Now, of course, he is an All-Star replacement for the Marcus Cousins.   I've said on the air that it's almost getting to a point where if there's no implosion with this team, you know, if there's no issue in the locker room or just it falls apart on the court and they go out really early and embarrassingly in the playoffs. I mean, barring anything like that, Paul George would almost look like a phony if he doesn't stay in Oklahoma City. What vibes are you giving? How do you think, how confident do you think the franchise is and how confident kind of are the people or the fans of the team and followers of the team that you guys think he's actually going to stay in Oklahoma City? I've always remained skeptical. I've remained skeptical from the jump from the first day you got here. Everything I heard about Paul coming into this situation has pretty much been spot on. He's a guy who, he's a good dude. He's a fantastic player. But he does have a tendency to say the things in the moment that you want to hear. And look, I don't blame him for doing so. I think there was a little bit of that in Kevin Durant, he's well known, but with Kevin going out to the Bay, I think you've seen him open up a little bit more in terms of how he expresses himself. I think Paul George does have a good opportunity or as a good possibility to stay here. And I don't base that on anything he said. I base that on winning basketball games. And I base that on being around guys who are competitors like Russell Westbrook and seeing the potential they have here.  He'll get to play with Stephen Adams, who seems to be growing every day as a player. He's ascending himself in the top, probably top 10, top five to 10 status in the NBA into the centers. You got a guy in Carmelo Anthony and you can still fill it up. If Andre Robertson comes back from his injury, he and Paul George are the two best wing tandem defensively in the league. We've had this idea that Paul George wants to go to LA. Look, he might want to go to LA, but what is he going to if he goes out there? Like, what are the Lakers doing? What are the Clippers doing? And I tell, but to counter that, I tell people all the time, Chris, these guys have egos, man. And it's like, we can't discount that Paul George might be confident enough in himself. Whether he believes it or not, it might be somebody gassing him up. It might be that he really believes it, but these guys, they get a notion that they can go be the person that changes a team. If Paul George believes that in his heart or somebody gasses him up enough, whether it's the agent or the people around them, to think that he can go change the Lakers' culture, he might just go do that. He might just be like, look, I like it in Oklahoma City, but I get a chance to go home and I believe that I can change the Lakers and be the face of the Lakers. Or he might say the same thing about the Clippers. That they free up enough cap room, which it looks like they're attempting to do with the offloading Blake, trying to move the Andre and the Williams. But I don't take any of the stuff that Paul George says seriously. It's not that I believe that he's lying. It's just that, I think it's December. No, it's not December, it's January. Like it's not, it's not, it's a lie. Chris, Chris, we've seen this too many times before, man. Like, what do you make of what he's saying? Do you feel like that's something that's gonna hold up in six months? Well, like I said, I mean, he, see, I view it like, it's one thing to be like, look, it's great here. You know, Russ and the guys have treated me really well.  That's different than this is making my decision that much easier, you know, because of Russ's character. I'd be stupid to leave, you know, that's what I, but I think you're making a good point though. Like he might look back and regret on those, okay? But ultimately, I don't even know if these guys even care. Like if he were to go to the Lakers, what does it matter what he said to a group of fans in Oklahoma City? Like ultimately he can just, he'll only have to play in Oklahoma City, what, two, one more time a year? Oh no, you're absolutely right. Yeah, you're absolutely right. What is it, like, I know maybe it is hard. He's like, man, it's disappointing that I had to leave Indiana or Oklahoma City, but like if he really wants to do something, what does he care about what he said six months ago? He would be able to shake it off in a minute.  Now it'd be awkward when he was in the, whenever he got around Russell Westbrook and Russell Westbrook wanted to tear him in half. He'd have a head of his life on the court in Russell Westbrook. Look, if he wants to cross Russell Westbrook, be my guess. Like that's really the person he's got to answer to. Like, I don't think the fan part is that big of a deal. Like he's got to answer to Russell Westbrook. That's the problem, right? Well, speaking, I was gonna say, speaking to that, where do things stand with Duran and Westbrook? And I mean, how upset still, and I know he's not obsessed with it. He's obviously moved on, but it really looks like he got no love at all, at all for Kevin Duran. He, in no respect- Russell, Russell does not forget anything, man. That dude does not forget, he doesn't forget anything.  And he always says that, actually, every game the same. I've been doing the same thing since I was 16 years old in high school. I treat all the games the same, I go, that, that, that. But then Dwell and B dunks on him and gives him a mean mug, and then Russell comes down, dunks, turns to the bench and says, I'm coming, MF, or like. He's one of the tattiest people in the NBA. And it fuels him, that stuff fuels him. So like, that Kevin, that he spent nine years with Kevin, that these dudes grew up together. Like, I don't know how long it's gonna take Russell Westbrook to get past that. I don't, I don't know if he will. Like, he's, I don't know if he can, as a athlete, he's still in his prime. Like, that's not his, that's not his wiring. Like, he might have to be an old man settled down, like, at his son's high school graduation and just step out of it and be like, you know what, man? That was, that was petty. And then he still won't call Kevin. Like, this guy, this guy's different, man.  He's, he's, he's Michael Jordan S in his competitive nature. And I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a coincidence that he's the face of Jordan's brand. Because he, to me, he and Kobe are the two guys who embody what Jordan's mindset was in terms of basketball more than anybody we've seen in the past 20, 25 years. Like, Russell just can't, he can't get past it. He won't. And it's like, I don't know if he's wrong.  And we want, you know, we want to, we want people to see people make amends and such. And I think that one day that might happen. I just, I just can't begin to tell you when that's going to happen.  How do the other, how do the other players like Steven Adams, Robertson, maybe there's some of the coaches that, how do they feel about Katie? I think in Gerald, those guys are like, you know, they're disappointed, they understand that like, it's a business and Kevin's a, Kevin's a good dude. And I think that, they don't, they don't like, like there's not, there's not any, there's not any kind of anger towards Kevin DeRiff or what he did from like the organization. Like people inside the organization will tell you like, we don't, they've never, they'll continue to handle that, but we've never said a bad thing about Kevin on the way out, this and that. And they're, they're right. Like they've gone, they basically, you know, not said anything or they try to go out of their way to not associate a Kevin and they've been good about it. Like the guys we've talked to have been good about it and they liked Kevin and I mean, I feel like somewhere in his heart, Russell probably does too, but Russell just can't let that stuff go if you're on the other team. Like if you're on the other team, Russell doesn't care.  And then he's going to try and rip Scott books his heart out for 48 minutes.  Like, I'll go ahead. Well, the rest of the organization, I think they're, I think they're okay. And they understand that the business side of things. And we, yeah, they'd love to have Kevin to read here. Of course they would. One of the best players ever. But, you know, you got to go forward. And I think they've done a better job than most franchises would have in the wake of losing a guy like that, man. So you sound like, if you had to, what percentage would you put on Paul George being an Oklahoma City Sunday player next year? Cause it sounds like it's well below 50% in your mind. Ooh, well below, ah, oh man. See, that's a, that's an interesting question. Just seeing them play the Clippers and Lakers this year, I would, I would actually, I would surprise you there. And I'd go over 50%, but slightly, I'd probably say like 52% that he stays because he's had, he's had firsthand accounts of how not close those teams are. Paul George, if Paul George values, look, and again, in the next six months, he might get a call from LeBron's people saying that LeBron's going to LA. Yeah, they want to go together, yeah. Right. And Magic's trying to find a way to, and Magic and Rob Palincker trying to find a way to finagle this thing to where they can get, you know, they can get under the cap enough to where they can fit both of these guys together. Like that could transpire and change the entire, the entire face of it.  I don't know. Does Paul George want to go there and deal with Lanzo's dad running his mouth? I don't know about that either. Like, yeah, yeah. I mean, would it be Paul George's team? It would be either LeBron's team or LeBron's team? Yeah. It would be either LeBron's team or LeVar Ball's team. One or the other. Pick. So Paul knows what he's up against. If he makes that decision, he's not making it for basketball reasons. He's making it for, you know, either, he thinks that he can be the guy that can lead a team to greatness, which in this superstar era, he's not going to be able to do it by himself or he's got people, he's just got a connection to LA that's just undeniable and he just wants to go back to LA. I almost feel like, and I've heard nothing, nothing connecting this with the sword, but I almost feel like a team like Miami would be a better option for like a guy like Paul George or LeBron because you go back to the East, you get to run game in the East and you're not going to be button heads against the Spurs, the Rockets, the Thunder and the Warriors during the regular season. To me, the concept of going to an LA team and trying to go up and go to war against the Golden State in Houston for the next three or four years, when you're getting older, it just doesn't make much sense to me. So I think the percentage is higher for him to stay than it was for me in the beginning of the season because even if Carmelo were to leave and decline that player option and maybe go hook up with LeBron somewhere, a core of Steven Adams, Paul George and Russell Westwood, shut up man, there's not many teams in the league that can go at war with that. Yeah, well, it's talking about that. Look, the Thunder are playing great that you mentioned how their offense has become one of the tops in the league. They're 16 and five over the last month and a half. They've won eight straight. They've beaten, in their last meetings with these teams, they've beaten San Antonio, Golden State and Houston. And I could throw in Cleveland, which we know as a contender, even though they're not playing well. And now- You can throw in, you can throw in Toronto. Minnesota, they lost, no, they lost to Minnesota last night. You can throw Toronto in there too. They've beaten heavy hitters, man. So why do you, well, one, why do you think they play so well against these top teams?  But what do you think, like what do you think they, how do you think this season will end for them? How deep in the playoffs do you think they go? And like I said, why do they play so well against these top teams? Okay, I'll start with the, I'll start with the second question. I think the 100 Robertson injury changes, it changes a lot. And it hurts, it's a killing, man. It seems like the Thunder's had, they've almost had a snake bit history in terms of injuries when it comes to them achieving their peak, you know, whether it's Westbrook getting his knee injury in the year that they won 60 games and they were, they were looking like they were coming off that finals appearance and looking like they were going straight back to the finals of Westbrook just in the injury. And then they, they, they buy out against the, I think it was the Grizzlies. No, it was the Rockets that series, I'm sorry. Or, you know, you get the Durant injury that derails the season, you get Serge Bakht injury that, you know, forced them to drop two games in the playoffs a few years back. I think the second round is probably, I'd be surprised if they got out of the second round because if they, if they get to the three seeds, I'd have better hopes for them maybe getting out of the second. If, if they're in the four and they got to play a home series, if they're a home team against Minnesota and they're the four, that's going to be a slug fast, man. That's going to be tough. So I think the second round is their peak. I don't think they get past Houston or Golden State. Robertson might have changed that discussion. I would have given them a fighter's chance if Robertson was there because Robertson was probably the best defensive player in the league this season. And Paul George is a close second. So to have one of those guys down against the perimeter-oriented Rockets in, in Houston, you know, James Harden is sleeping a lot better at night because Andre Roberts without. Clay Thompson is sleeping a lot better at night because Andre Robertson's out. So I think their peak is the second round. Now for the other question, they clearly get up for these big games and it's going to be interesting to see how many times they can do that in the second half of the season when they don't have an Andre Robertson, when the frequency of these big games increases, they're going to be playing Golden State three more times. They're going to be playing Houston two more times. They're going to have San Antonio a couple more times. Those, are they going to be able to get up for those games as many times as they did in the beginning of the season when they don't have an Andre Robertson? I think they clearly lack the certain focus against teams that they thought were lesser than them in the beginning of the season. I think there was some arrogance to this team actually to start the season. They kept saying to themselves, oh, it'll figure itself out, it'll work itself out. They kept hearing coaches around the league say, oh, these guys are going to figure it out, they're going to work it out. But I think there was a certain level of focus missing, particularly in terms of their offense, in terms of run their sets. When teams made runs on them, they quit running sets. They would just go to isolation offense. Now when teams make a run, they keep doing the things that they were doing before. They get the ball in Russell Westbrook's hands. He gets to the rack. He gets to the free throw line. He gets to his mid-range. Then that opens up the transition game and he's finding those trailers. He's finding Paul George. He's finding Stephen Adams sealing off a smaller defender on the break. He's finding Carmelo Anthony. But they're executing their offense better when they get in adverse situations. They weren't doing that at the beginning of the year, particularly against teams like the Kings or Orlando. Just inexcusable lapses and focus in terms of just being able to run your simple sets when teams come back at you. So now when they get in adverse situations, they have confidence. They know they can go back to certain sets. They're not trying to win the game by themselves. And that's when you see them start to separate from teams. And that to me was the saddest thing about the Pistons game when Andrew Robinson got hurt on Saturday. They're going back and forth with the Pistons for two quarters. They didn't really play any defense in the first half.  They just blast them out of the building. And there's only been a handful of times that I've seen the Thunder and the three years I've covered them where they just overwhelm teams with their swagger, their execution, their defense and it all comes together at once. Once was the Western Conference finals when they were at home against Golden State. There was a time this season against Toronto where they went on a run where it was just all downhill. And then the game against the Pistons, you know, you have Russell Westbrook high stepping on the break. You got guys hitting transition three pointers. You've got them getting like four or five consecutive defensive stops with the Pistons not even getting a shot off.  So that was a really deflating moment to watch. But it was also encouraging because you saw how devastating this team can be when they're really flowing and they're really on a roll. Eric, you have been tremendous. I appreciate your time and great insight. I look forward to seeing you soon. Are you going to be at the All-Star weekend? I sure will, man. We're definitely going to have to link up. Yeah, definitely, man. Keep doing a great job. Again, wonderful insight and information, man. Thanks a lot for joining in the zone. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me anytime. All right, brother. See you in a few weeks. All right, see you then.


This is S.A.R.B. Storefront. This month is Women's History Month, and we've partnered with Cat Footwear to bring you stories from female entrepreneurs in the construction industry. This is the final episode of our four-part series. The goal is to highlight some of the female movers and shakers in an industry where they make up only around 11% of the workforce. Our guest today is Stephanie Olson, founder of She Builds. What started out as flipping a single house has turned into a career spent renovating, flipping, and building new properties from the ground up. She Builds now tackles entire housing developments, most notably for the town of Paradise, California. In 2018, the campfire raged through Paradise, destroying 95% of its structures and killing 85 people. To this day, it remains the deadliest and most destructive wildfire in California's history. Stephanie has been a big part of the rebuilding process, helping those who were displaced by the disaster a chance to call Paradise home once more. So listen in as we cover everything from how she used to go so far as hopping backyard fences to scope out potential flips, why she'll never sell a house without staging it, and why no one ever leaves enough money in the budget for landscaping. Now, on to the episode. All right, welcome to the podcast on today's show. We're talking to Stephanie from She Builds for people who don't know what does your company do? Yeah, we are a woman-owned design and build firm. So right now, for the month of March, we're doing this cat footwear, where we're trying to highlight women in male-dominated industries and hear their journeys. And so how did you first get into design, construction, architecture? What was your, sort of your first step? You know, I've always been a really creative person, but I think probably the very first experience I ever had, my dad, he was an accountant my entire life, and he really encouraged me early on to be an investor and to save my money. And so at a very early age, I bought my first house, early 20s, and I redid every inch of that house myself, and ended up making quite a bit of money after a few years sold it. And then that turned into about 100 flips after that. And so at the beginning, it was just more of like, you're renovating your own home, and then all of a sudden you found a passion in doing that in the renovation piece. And was it something specific? Like was it carpentry? Was it kitchens, bathrooms, the whole bit? Was it bringing it down to like the studs, like a full demo, or what was the thing that you really enjoyed the most? You know, I think my gift is the ability to see what other people cannot see. You know, I can walk into something that's in shambles and I can see what it looks like done. It took me a while to learn that that was actually something that a lot of people don't have and can't picture in their mind. For example, my husband. And so being able to know that that's really my gift to be able to envision what something could look like and then execute. You know, I'm really good at executing the details and the design and the layout and, you know, materials. And I didn't go to design school. I didn't go to school to be a contractor. I think it was just like as you get older, you really, your gifts really unfold. So how did you first learn the trade itself?  Like, what was your education process? I don't think YouTube existed. I might look older. Didn't mean to date you like that. I'm like, I don't know. I don't even know if I had a phone. No, it wasn't like a full extensive remodel. You know, it was a lot of cosmetic stuff. But if I didn't know how to do it, I found a sub or somebody that could do the work. But, you know, I put the entire kitchen together and did all the countertops. I did the like Ikea craziness. And, you know, it was just like, I'm the type of person that if I don't know how to do it, I'm either gonna like find out how or find somebody to teach me how to do it. How did you get into the flipping business? And so what was the first like, obviously the one that you bought and you renovated was your primary home. But then what made you want to get into the flipping business? Cause I know, so we're in Los Angeles, we had a home and we basically flipped it. I do real estate development on the commercial side now, no longer in homes. And I remember at least in this market, it was like the hardest part was just trying to buy, like everyone's watching HETV. Everyone's trying to become the next flipper. And I think a lot of people just go underwater because they're not doing simple math or they don't understand the extent of what can go wrong, right? There's no contingency. And so when you first got into the game, what was it like? Was it a hot market? Were there a lot of people trying to flip also? Or what was sort of like just the beginning stages for your business? It was probably like 2009 when I started. So there wasn't a whole lot of people doing it or knowing how. And it just started with like the idea. You know, my husband was like, I want to do it. And I'm like, okay, let's try one. And we ended up with a really good realtor that helped us through that process. And I also ran an accounting practice for 15 years. So budgeting and being in charge of financials is definitely my forte. And then also just like early on understanding that like the separation between personal and business and like this home is not gonna be my home. I'm not gonna live here. This is a business transaction and I cannot make decisions based upon, you know, my emotions. And so I think just early on, I was very strict about that line. And so you're at 100 flips now. Do you have like a favorite flip? Hmm, well, I mean, that was quite a while ago. I've been doing development and residential subdivisions and stuff. So I kind of did that, you know, I haven't done probably a flip in maybe five years. But gosh, my favorite flip, probably the most disgusting one was probably my favorite because at one of them, I was pregnant with one of my children. And I walked in and somebody, I used to buy stuff off auction. So everything was off auction. I mean, I don't know how legal this is, but I would go and like check out the houses before and, you know, scope out, jump over fences, do kinds of stuff, you know, just to make sure I knew what I was buying. But most of the time I'd never gotten in a house before I purchased it. And this one, I think somebody had been smoking in it for at least 50 years. The walls were like just yellow. And I walked in and I was, I don't know, I was maybe eight months pregnant.   And there was like trash, you know, like quarter style stuff. And I think like when you, when I can still be optimistic and be like, this is gonna be a great project.  I think the biggest like, you know, transformation is always my favorite. And like when people don't believe in me, when they're like, oh Steph, you'll never recover from this one. And I'm like, all right, watch me, you know. So was that shift going from flipping single family homes to residential and subdivisions? Was that a pretty straightforward step? I mean, because by the time you get to 100 flips, that's a repetition that you probably feel pretty comfortable in that line of work. Was it like at all the same confidence that you had built up going to the next phase of your career? Like what was that thought process like for you in switching? Because I know some people do make a career out of just flipping homes, but for you it seemed like you wanted something more, something bigger to, you know, to tackle. So like take us through your thought process in that moment.  So the competition was high.  So I'm always looking to be sure that I'm shifting at the right time in the market. And I definitely had confidence in my ability from, you know, the standpoint of knowing houses and floor plans, but building a house is completely different than remodeling a house and flipping a house. And so I started with four. I bought one lot, subdivided it into four.  So that was a lot of like support that I had and going into it and feeling like, okay, I have somebody who has the knowledge that I don't. From a housing perspective, obviously thank you for doing your part in housing California. We're in a huge bit of a problem here.  Or is it just like, that's your sweet spot. That's what you like to do. Like how do you envision, I guess, when you think about your future, just the projects that you decide to do, is it the impact that you're chasing? What's the thing that really motivates you? I think it's kind of dual.   But then, you know, to me, because I really feel like I bring something different to the table, you know, like when I build a spec, it's not build or grade. Like I want that term to like barf up and go away. I just, I think that we need to provide quality, beautiful homes that are lacking nothing. So I really, I have a fierce desire to change the industry in terms of what's offered in the new construction realm and like the spec build and development.  So, you know, the mission runs pretty deep for me. And how big is your team now and how many women are on your team? We have seven, I think, you know, that are internal. And then, you know, a lot of, there's just not enough subs to be able to hire all women.   I'm like, what's your name? Where'd you come from? I attack every woman that I see out there that is like learning a trade. And I also just like encourage them. Like if this is something you want to do, like let me help you open the doors. Like let me introduce you to people that, you know, that you could work for that I know would support you in their industry and stuff. So just going off of that, of course, the field's increasing in diversity, but what's it like to be the only woman in the room sometimes? Like what advice do you have to other women who are trying to get into your field and are the only women in the room? It doesn't really bother me. I think it's been that way for so long that I think I am oblivious to it. But in terms of advice or anything that I would say, I think it's just about respect.  I'm the first one to be like, I don't know, you know, and let's go talk to the expert about it. And just absolutely like respecting and building relationships with the people and the men that are in the industry. I have had such like a warm open welcome arms by, you know, every male in the industry that I work with that are so kind to me and accepting.   So I think when you find the right people and you absolutely respect them, that they give you that respect in return. I also know what I'm talking about 90% of the time. I think that helps.  I can say this much on our brewery project right now we have a female GC, that's my wife. My wife has a commercial construction company.  And then our plumber, she started her own company and her name is Brittany and she's probably the best plumber I've ever worked with. Which on a brewery project, it's super important. And then there's like a female welder. And so just from a development perspective, I'm certainly starting to see a lot more women in the trades of like the welder one got me. I was like, wow, like she basically runs like a steel company at this stage and amazing, like amazing. And she welds just because she enjoys it. Like she owns the company, but she just likes welding because it's like meditative for her and just cool. And you're starting to see the industry shift. And I think we had this conversation earlier, but it's about representation where the more it happens, the more obvious it becomes and the more nobody thinks it's the thing anymore. It's just like, oh wow, there's a female plumber, not a thing anymore, female welder, not a thing anymore. What's on deck for you? Like where are you trying to go? Yeah, you mentioned you had lofty goals, big visions. Just one day at a time, one year at a time. You know, right now we're really focusing on paradise. And I don't know. Yeah, the town of paradise, the wildfire, right? Yeah, yeah, the campfire, so that's where I live. So, you know, where we, my focus is really just like being and offering a beautiful and quality home and rebuilding the ridge. And it's kind of just like one house at a time up there. They don't have the infrastructure for, you know, a sewer system, so we're all on septic up there. So it's really difficult to purchase, you know, multiple lots and just, you know, knock out 30 to 40 homes. So, you know, our goal is that this year we have 15, I think that we're trying to get done. That's kind of our plan for this coming year, is to just solely focus on, you know, on the ridge and rebuilding paradise. What are you seeing in terms of the community up there? I know that a lot of people were displaced because of that fire. And, you know, you're saying that you're trying to get like a couple dozen homes per year. Are you seeing the community members that once were there, maybe were displaced? Are they coming back or is that a slow process still? They are definitely coming back.  And now it's just really feeling lively again.  And you can tell that person felt lonely, you know, cause they're just not neighbors. And so like now entire neighborhoods are being rebuilt and businesses are being rebuilt. And so it just is feeling so much more welcoming and full of life again. And there are a lot of people that are definitely rebuilding that had lost a home.  So, you know, it's really attractive to people who aren't looking for just a little bit more land, a little bit more room to roam. Given that your expertise is also somewhat in accounting, are there any things that you like would literally advise people of like this is the one thing that you've seen other people miss, other GCs, other builders when it comes to just either a pro forma or just doing simple numbers that they just either maybe it's contingency. But do you see anything on the accounting side that's always missed? You know, I think right now, gosh, I feel like, well, if I were to say like two things if you want me to answer the accounting aspect, I feel like you never put enough money in your budget for landscaping. It's just always something where you're like, cool, yeah, five grand will do it and then it's like 15.  I think a lot of people just try to skimp on that part and it puts a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth. That's a really, really good tip. I can say on my side from the broker, I mean, there's not many good brokers, I'll be honest about that, but the ones that are really good, they've constantly bring me deals and they even have invested in some of my projects which is even crazier. You know, they're thinking about it long term, I guess, is the view, right? They're thinking about it like this is a relationship that's gonna develop over time and we're planting trees and they're slow but they're, you know, with some watering, things will take off together. Do you always stage your projects? Always. And that's in your budget, I'm sure. Like since the very beginning, since every flip, I just think it's worth every penny. Even if I'm like representing, like sometimes I'll represent sellers for friends or whatever and stage it and put their houses on the market and they'll fight me on staging their house and I'm like, I won't sell your house if you don't stage it because people just have such a hard time. Like I was going back to visualizing how they live in this space and the pictures, like everybody buys based upon what they see online right now and if you see a room and you have no idea what size bed can fit in there based upon that picture because the picture doesn't give you dimension. I just feel like it absolutely sells the picture and that idea of you living in that space and I absolutely 100% always stage even if I don't have the money for it. And we also know that you started a podcast and I'm curious about the reason like why you started that and like what your thought process was. I had a transition period. You know, I'd ran this accounting practice for 15 years with my dad. He is my best friend, my hero and he decided to retire and the plan was that I would always run that practice.  You know, the only reason I did it was because I loved being with my father, like just spending every day with him and learning from him was the greatest joy of my life and him being gone, it was like, oh wow, this is not something that I love. And I've been running all of these flips and all of this business and building and all of that on top of tax season and running my accounting practice. And he came to me and said, you know, you don't have to do this. And I think it took him a while to step back to be able to come to the place because he had built that business from nothing, you know, and then, you know, basically handed it to me. And coming to that realization, I kind of had this crossroad of, well, if I'm not gonna do that, then what am I gonna do? And I had the opportunity to kind of pause and go, okay, I know I'm gonna have enough money from this selling this accounting practice because we ended up finding a buyer. What am I gonna do? And to me, she builds was born in that and I didn't just want it to be, I want to be a better contractor than everybody else. I want to impact the world. I want to be world-class and I am such a multifaceted woman that I wanted to build, like to me, she builds, it's called the She Build Show and it's like building strong marriages, building strong women, building, you know, being an amazing mother, being an amazing wife and just building like a wholehearted woman and finding the other women out there that would inspire the listeners to jump into a dream that maybe they'd been sitting on and they weren't sure how to do it. So I wanted to show them experiences and paths of other women who have done it and then also share the insight and wisdom that I've gleaned through all the years of the businesses that I've run and the things that I've gone through. So to me, I'm a very introverted person but also very full of depth and I needed an outlet to feel like there was something bringing purpose to my life. So there you go. I will step off my soapbox now, sorry. We provided that for you for a reason. It's important to know your why and to share it. Step back on it, step back on it. How is it going? How do you feel about the mission that you're on? It is my most favorite thing I do right now, by far. Like when I get to record a podcast because I've been doing taxes and I've been, you know, building and I had other partners, you know, throughout this whole time I was doing development stuff and there was just nothing ever that was just Stephanie's. If that makes sense. I always had partners and everything and there was always like, cool, I have a dream now Stephanie's gonna implement it and there had never been anything that was just my creative outlet and whether people listen to it or not, I really don't care. It's like so healing and providing an avenue for me to just be able to feel like I'm giving purpose to my life. I get it. When we first started the podcast it was like, frankly, it was like you were listening to my therapy session. That was really it. It was me talking to a founder about the difficulties about what we're both embarking on and you know, sharing in that misery but also in the joys of it too. And to your point, you know, I'd do it for free. I would do it if my mom was the only listener which I'm sure she was for probably the first few weeks. These things have a way of inspiring everything else. And what is your goal for it? Like how big do you wanna take it? What would be like an ideal scenario for you a year from now? Who's your, maybe a guest you'd love to have on? Things like that. You know, my goal when I started the podcast was to just do it.  My goal was to just do it. It took me a year to get like enough episodes recorded. I had a coach that I met with every single week and my goal was to just stay committed and consistent because, you know, change only happens through the small consistent habits that you do daily. And so for me, it was about just doing it and I have not set a particular place for it. It's, to me, it's unfolding and the relationships that come from it and where it goes, I'm actually just okay with. My business, I have like very, very planned out and very set lofty goals, but for me, this creative outlet is something that I just want to unfold to see where it goes. I love it. It's the same for us. People are like, what's the business plan? I'm like, there isn't one. I'm like, I have no idea. I just want to talk to cool people. And now we have a team and so it's a lot better and we're providing more content. And through that, oddly enough, we were able to get Kat as a sponsor and now it's just becoming like its own, it's really its own entity is the way I look at it. As much as I can say I control it or we control it, it's really just its own thing with its own personality and we just kind of give it a little push every week but really it's its own living, breathing organism and it's kind of cool. I mean, it would be super cool if I made money but I don't know if that'll happen. I mean, it's like anything. I think it's like anything. It's just like when you first start out, maybe even with your flip, it's like you're investing quite literally, right? So first you buy it, then you're investing whatever it is, 50, 60, 100 grand into it and then the money comes later. I think the podcast is the same. It's literally the same. That would be like a cherry on top but that's not the reason I'm doing it for sure. Yeah, no, totally.  Like you opened up the doors and you just found all of these problems? Like what did you have to do to overcome that? Yeah, my own house. You know, I think over the years the problems don't overwhelm me. I think they tend to keep me up at night if there is more so a problem that I can't fix within budget. That more stresses me out. Like if, okay, how do I stay within budget? How do I protect this investment? How do I make sure that we still make money? I think that stresses me out versus like just coming up with solving a problem. The problem, solving the problem is easy, staying in budget is hard. That's so true. It's the hardest thing. I think a lot of people get less in the hard way, unfortunately also. Yeah, and like sometimes you have lofty goals and dreams for a property and like you have to be willing to cut out stuff that maybe you wanted to do in order to stay in budget and I'm the first one to be like, nope, we can't have that anymore. I mean, it goes back to what you were saying about the landscaping. I feel like, you know, you're always under budget for landscaping because that's the thing that gets cut. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, sorry, you don't get anything but bark. That's one thing I've learned, I will say as a developer, is increase the landscaping budget significantly. Like if there's one thing that's gonna be increased, it's always landscaping because it always, it just makes it, it's expensive, but it also just makes the space. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly. Then like, if you do ditch out on landscaping and then it looks like terrible at the end, I do. Yeah, if you have a good landscaper, they can make the curb appeal look incredible. But it's always more than I want it to be. Do you have any landscaping hacks where you're like, this has to go in every front yard or whatnot? I'm all about, you know, most the time for us, I think not skimping on driveways and concrete and functional use of the house.  That's like three and a half feet and the wheels fall off.   So I just am all about like functional living and parking and moving throughout a house and how do you actually use it? And does it have enough space to be able to do that? I know some developers who do some funny, superstitious things like on every project, they'll dig something in the garden and it's like for their forever or like a garden gnome and it's like their way of going, this project is gonna go well. Do you have anything odd like that? No, I don't, you know, I don't, I'm not really superstitious. I have a lot of faith so I don't really go that route. I used, like when I did my flips just so that I could like punch people in the face and they knew it was mine. I would paint every door red, but then like everybody started painting their doors red and then that made me mad. So I stopped doing that. Have you ever left a time capsule of some sort, like a note in a renovation, like last remodeled by Stephanie in 2012 or anything like that? I haven't, but now I need to do something. You know, the other night I had a dream that I could make this like really cool plaque that I could put on the houses that was like built by She Builds in the day so like you couldn't take the plaque off, but no, I don't, you guys, I'm missing the boat here. I did a time capsule on our last project and it was, I put coins in there, I put like a couple bucks, I put the newspaper, I put like Trump was president, I put the price of gas. Is it just like so that they can like get it later and know like what happened when the house that project was built? Yeah, I put like the social media of the era. So I was like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, which for sure, you know, whenever they dig this up in the future, they're gonna be like, what the heck was that? It's always an afterthought, but it is fun. That's a great idea, I wanna do that now. Leave your mark, literally leave your mark. I will, okay, I'm gonna take a picture of something super weird and send it to you guys. That's perfect. Please do. Well, Stephanie, where can people find you and reach out to you directly? Probably the easiest place is Instagram, we're at SheBuilds.homes. Thanks for joining, I really appreciate it. I'm sharing your story. Pleasure having you on the show. Yes, thank you so much, you guys. This conversation with Stephanie was the final episode in our four-part series highlighting women in construction. We'd like to thank CatFootwear for helping us to share these stories. And since you're still here, please consider subscribing if you're not already or even better, leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. It's honestly one of the best and easiest ways you can support the show. We are found at Startup Storefront on every social media platform with the notable exception of Twitter where we can be found at STS Podcast LA. The team consists of Diego Torres Palma, Natalia Capolini, Lexi Jameson, Owen Capolini and me, Nick Conrad. Our music is by DoubleTouch. Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next time.


You walk with a fist, but it's time to learn today Diving to the numbers, hey, what do you say, okay? I beat you, Mr. Marks, you got the funny math flow Mr. Marks, that the best of your best time, let's go!


My interest in architecture grew over a period of time, I think like most people, but there's sort of early memories I have of making things. So I was constantly building and making low-tech Rube Goldberg contraptions. And I think over a period of time, as a kid, I started to sense the power of building things, of the built environment. I am frankly more interested in the ideas that come out of the intersection of other ideas. Things range from a hospital to a carpet. Both of those are equally interesting to us, and the thing that links those is the deep research that will go into whatever that project type is. We're driven by a sense of curiosity and discovery. And I think that's inherently optimistic. I think that's inherently about possibilities. Imagination Playground was a pro bono project, and it was a self-initiated project, and it was a chance to look at how to reinvent playgrounds from a child's point of view. And now there's portable playgrounds around the world, so in many ways I think that is sort of the purest output so far of Rockwell Group's intent. You know, the culture shed involves a huge amount of invention, and that only works if everyone brings their full toolkit to the table. I think it is a chance to make a big, bold, exciting new contribution to the city together. We're sort of a design city here. We're about 250 people. Architects, interior designers, coders, sculptors, craftsmen, painters. I would say it's organized around studios but that act as neighborhoods. If you go back to the city analogy, there are those bleeds from project type to project type, and that creates a place that is really collaborative. I think at the end of the day architecture is an incredibly complex set of decisions, and having a vision that's strong enough to push through all those decisions is I think part of what makes a building successful. We are living in a period of such incredible change. There's an almost invisible boundary between how we live and work. The implications for digital technology in the built environment is just at the very beginning stages. In addition to that, I will tell you, I think architects are radically undervalued. I think our contribution to the built world is nowhere near the value we provide, and I think architects can have a seat at the table long before the program's developed, long before the site's selected, and after the project is complete. I would say there's no better time to begin working, and I hope there's a shift in the ability for architects to be compensated for the kind of value we create in the world.